What can we as a community do to protect newer players from con-artist "coaches"?
There is no other activity where the expression "those who can't do, teach" is more true than in poker. In a game where being ahead of the pack is mostly up to tediously studying solver outputs, the incentive to share information at mass just isn't there. This, with few exceptions, basically leaves coaching up to people who aren't winning players at any meaningful stakes and have no bottom line to protect.
Still, there are new people getting interested in poker every day and a decently sized market to grab. While there are a couple well-meaning people/retired crushers(Galfond etc) putting out content, there's also plenty of failed pros with dubious morals trying to capitalize on this interest. A new player won't know the difference between a Galfond or a Carrel/Weisman, where the former might seem less flashy but will actually improve their game at a fair prize and the latter lead them down a path of failure. Not really looking to single out those two in particular, but I would make a sizeable wager that neither of them could beat small stakes online and yet they shill their coaching/courses at unwitting newcomers to the game.
I'm sure some might think it's good that there are bad actors scooping up new players and basically selling them horse ****, one less could-be reg. To the extent the poker community is even a thing however, it is sort of sad to see the game being advertised as a get-rich-quick scheme by crypto-esque scam artists. While some have yelled at people like Galfond for years about making the game harder, I think what he is doing is far better for the ecosystem as a whole than the people just trying to make a quick buck. The more people that love this game the better, and I don't think you'll love the game if you start out trying to emulate aforementioned gentlemens play wondering why you're losing your bankroll.
To the point, we have a pretty poor track record regarding calling out scummy behaviour and these people seem to mostly be accepted by the community. Why aren't any bigger names calling them out? Every single pro knows these guys can't do what they're claiming, yet I don't see a single one protecting potential "victims" by simply saying so publicly.
5 Replies
Hi Reg:
What an interesting post.
I do want to point out that Jonathan Little is a co-author on the first two books by Cardner.
I would also include "poker performance coach" Jason Su on your list. In fact, I would be interested in your telling us where his stuff is derived from. Also, does anyone know what his course costs?
Mason
Sorry to revive this, but i recently started to listen all jason su podcasts and i believe he his the best coach i ever listened, i consumed every "top" mindset coach that you can list like elliot roe A-game, and every podcast / courses / ebooks from every mindset coach i can encounter, but with everyone method i feel disconnected from the actual facts, i started to listen
Jared Alderman Coaching podcast with Jason su and you can deeply tell he comes from a place of honesty, i recommend to listen these podcasts and see if you can change your mind, i also went from a place of distrust but after listening everything he says you just know this are facts. And if his stuff is derived from some other person or philosopher i dont think this changes the message and the facts, i only feeled this way of being listening to deep facts when first heared to a philosopher named "jiddu krishnamurti" (im not comparing kirhsnamurti to jason su).
If you watch these podcasts without judgment and just listen and discover the truth for yourself, I think you can change your mind, especially the presence/staying with your feelings/not trying to rationalize, I think "intellectual" people would find it hard to accept some truths he says because of all the conditioning and because people often doesnt know how to truly listen without judging
Sorry to revive this, but i recently started to listen all jason su podcasts and i believe he his the best coach i ever listened, i consumed every "top" mindset coach that you can list like elliot roe A-game, and every podcast / courses / ebooks from every mindset coach i can encounter, but with everyone method i feel disconnected from the actual facts, i started to listen Jare
I would be happy to come on their show and discuss anything they want related to poker psychology. Perhaps Su could convince me that he eally is someone worth listening to. (I have made this offer to several of these poker psychology coaches and none of them has ever said "Okay, let's do this.")
In the past, when I was critical of Su's advice, he challenged me to a $100,000 heads-up match which in my opinion was quite juvenile, and blocked me on Twitter (now X). Also, if my memory is correct, I asked Su what his background was relative to psychology and poker psychology and didn't get an answer.
In case you don't know, Two Plus Two Publishing LLC, which I head up, publishes four books on poker psychology. Three are written by authors who each hold a Ph,D. in psychology, and one is written by a mathematician (me) who holds a masters degree in math and has a strong background in mathematical statistics. (By the way, a strong understanding of mathematical statistics can lead you to a lot of places, For instance, in addition to my Real Poker Psychology: Expanded Edition, I'm also the author of Gambling Theory and Other Topics, and a co-author of History of the World from a Gambler's Perspective written with Antonio Carrasco (which while a history book is actually based on mathematical statistics).
Lots of good players go on to coach because grinding is tedious, online games are tough, live poker is often annoying and you need to live in certain places to find good games.
Coaching helped ruin the game. You want to sell a book that gives out basic advice (relative to the expertise that is out there) like Doyle or whatever, fine. What these online coaches are doing is a product of the world we live in today and an example of the younger generation's mindset-im gonna get mine.
Where do you draw the line? I dont know, but there's no doubt the coaching is contributing to games becoming much more difficult imo. With that said, if you're paying a coach or a program thousands to teach you how to beat 25c 50c online, you're not a very talented player.
I would be happy to come on their show and discuss anything they want related to poker psychology. Perhaps Su could convince me that he eally is someone worth listening to. (I have made this offer to several of these poker psychology coaches and none of them has ever said "Okay, let's do this.")In the past, when I was critical of Su's advice, he challenged me to a $100,000 head
Look, you are missing the point. I dont care how many books you or anybody write, this is not a contest or a intelectual affair. Im just saying jason su makes a solid point on the current era of "mind coaches" and i see the truth of it, not intelectually, just perception, he just says basically, i will put this on my own words, we dont need to control ourselfs, our toughts, or try to rationalize anything, because who is the controler? its the same tought, so by doing this that every "mind coach" advocates, we are only brining out more division and misery, anxiety etc, thats all im saying.
And this simple truth, was discussed by jiddu krishnamurti, across all the talks he give over 20 years, so jason su resonated with me, i don´t care if he isnt a great player or his level in poker, just the facts he is stating.
maybe if you listen to some krishnammurti talks you will see what im saying, he has most of his talks accompanied by David Bohm (considered as one of the most significant theoretical physicists of the 20th century and even einstein stated that he was the only one capable to surpass him) in case this adds "credibility" to all of this.
And yes, the 100k challenge im aware of it, he related this story on some podcast laughing about it, he sayed that he usually challenge people to do this challenge, so you can forgget about this being personal agaisnt you ,but again what this has to be with anything? this is not a judging contest on anybody, just seeing the truth of what he states, not the persona.
