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i dont really have worries too much about the way the tournaments are run and paid out but for the good of the future i believe something needs to be done. many believe there is too much trading pieces and possible collusion. the threat is real so why not do something simple to stop the threat. what i think can help is to have the tournament people only pay out to the person winning that position that amount of money due to that place. and only give the tax form to the winners in the amount that they recieved as the prize. this stops alot of staking and trading as people will be much less inclined to trade pieces if they know that someone else actually gets the money in their hand with the tax form in their name. in other words when the winner wins one million he gets the whole million and a tax form with it. it makes it less probable that a person will want to have say half of this person and worry about collecting from them. the reason the practice of giving out the money to different people and tax forms to backers instead of the winners is that it promotes extra entries and tips for the floorpeople. i dont care to stop anyone from making a living as long as its not at the ultimate expense of poker. since poker players seem to be quit in matters that cost them dearly it may be their own fault that many go broke that could win.
JohnnyD,
I look forward to playing with you sometime. Maybe, I'll see you in Reno for the World Poker Challenge. BTW, I love to play against loose aggressive tournament players. I'll remember to adjust my bet size for you if we play a pot together. I'll bet the whole thing (hahaha). Not kidding. Ask Rounder.
Rounder,
I look forward to playing a pot with you too, again. I hope I get lucky just like last time when we played that satellite at the Orleans.
Hey Randy,
Good to see you still posting although I never see you at any games around town. Just think of what they would say if he had played his patented 9-5. I'm going to spend a week with Ralph & Anita soon. Take care of the little one.
Russ
That is just another example of "no clue" about tourny strategy.
Ex: last 4, pays to 5, BB is shorty who cant harm anyone. EVERYONE SHOULD CALL AND CHECK unless you nail "THENUTZ". Point being to kill shorty and get to the money part, then get cutthroat again.
Id be more concerned about abuse of the "all in" timeout thing, where people can play their Blinds or calls without calling any raises,etc by simply not responding and going "allin" for not their whole stack. I see this alot, in the $100 games. This is an internet thing, nothing like it in real world...Oh, I have to peee, be back in a bit...when the button raises your BB at WSOP ;-)
Say what?
I thought you couldn't go "all-in" in the tourneys. I thought I had read elsewhere that you still folded to bets/raises when in the blind if you weren't there to hit your call button in time. Please confirm or deny.
In a tourney that pays to multiple positions, this is way too huge of an edge for the all-in-er to have. You should disconnect yourself everytime it gets down to 4 or 5 players if you have any kind of stack, as you'll get full showdown value at zero added risk.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
My Sat results were bad, 7,4,7,2,6 all $10 ones, but Sun I made a breakthrough: 3,5,3,3,2,2,9,2,1 in the money 7 out of 9 times.
A little more practice and Ill be able to just place on demand. These are defnitely the best most intense tourny practice Ive been able to find anywhere. I highly recommend it.
I like the late night time they added, good for insomnia. Figure the others are all tired or drunk, it should make it easier to win.
-Jim Allen
Jim thinking you can take 2nd on "demand" is wrong headed you will run into a lot of things here you see on the real tables - cold cards, flopping nutz and getting beat etc. you have to play your best poker all the time. You are right it is good practice specially when 3 handed and/or heads up - something we don't get to practice nearly eneough.
Yes that was me, but I flipped out one day and my chat was shut off, so I couldnt answer you. When you had AhQh, I had KsQs. Tough to toss it just because someone raised and bet. Oh well, nh.
Limped in to the final table with about T3500 in chips out of T88,000. blinded off a while, won an all in from the blinds with Q-10 which left me with 1500 with blinds of T1000/T1500 and T1500/T3000 limits. By this time we had six left, only the UTG (at the time of the first question) was close to me in chips. 6th paid 220 (55 buy in, no rebuys), 5th paid 270, 4th 320...wasn't really concerned with the rest of the payouts, given my stack size.
1) third to act, dealt AK. we just had a bust out, leaving the table 6 handed. We have two small blinds (one on the button) as a result of the blind busting out a couple of hands ago. I have just enough to match the small bet (three T500 chips). Do I go all in here? (I think yes, but I'm just checking)
2) I went all in and won ten chips. very next hand I get 99. what to do? raise, fold or call?
results of this hand and tourney later.
only the BB called my raise, but he only had 2 more chips, so we had T5000 (5 chips each) in the pot. he floped two pair to his K-3 and I never improved.
I then took my remaining five chips and bled them away on the next blind (actually got caught from behind on the hand, 10-3 vs 98) when the limits went up and I had to go all in while posting the Big blind.
fun tourney, but I wish I had done better. P.S. in hindsight, that last line is stupid. don't we always wish we did better when we don't win???
If you even have to ask about AK and 99 short-stacked your thinking is off-track. It sounds like you are waiting too long to make your move. As you found, if you wait too long then even when you win a hand (with Q-10) you are still in the same trap because you haven't won enough chips.
If I find myself with 4 times the big blind or less then I am looking to make a move on this round, my big blind is considered to be my "last" hand. This gives me an extra chance to win by everyone folding, and gives me enough chips to play with if I win the hand. When I play, I raise, and my standards are higher when someone has called already and much, much higher when someone has already raised (because you have lost the second chance to win as he is unlikely to fold).
Andy.
You should be very concerned about those other payouts, despite your stack size.
Here, you've won $220, but only get $50 more for moving up to the next 2 spots. I would guess that if you win from here, you win over $2,000 more. So, now that you've got a profit locked up, and since you don't win that much more for just sliding up 1 or 2 more spots (compared to winning), you should be trying to win some chips as long as you're getting the best of it.
AK and 99 usually have the best of it, and should be played here. If you had won with the 99 (as you would have much more than half the time), you would be in real contention for a win, or at least a good shot at 2nd or 3rd, right?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for the responses. I wasn't really questioning the plays, I just wanted to validate my own actions. The only question I sort of had was about raising with the 99. I was 99% sure the raise was correct, but I was still wondering if I should have limped or not.
As for my hand selection leading up to those hands, I didn't get anything close to playable. Also, the big stacks were playing policeman, and the two players to my right were short and going in all the time, so stealing with a complete trash hand was out of the question. hard to take a 7-4 off into a sure call.
one last (for now) question. you're in the BB (3 chips) and have 2 more. the two will leave you all in on your SB if you pass here. It's raised by a small stack (10 chips) second to act. The raiser just won a pot that would get him through the blinds, and has been playing very tight, as far as you can see. All fold to you, so there are 5 chips from the raiser (you can only call for 5), two from the SB and three from your BB in the pot. Do you call with K3 off here?
I think you have to call here. lets look at the possible out comes to this. 1 you win, you have a decent stack here, not much room to manuiver but better than you were. or 2 you fold and take your small blind. you could get a better hand(maby AA) or one much worse (72 23) however no matter how good your next hand is you can only win 2 chips per player drawing against you. in my, admittidaly limited experience that is going to at most gain you 6 chips, and possibly even just 4. which gives you next to nothing. thus I think the move here is to put it all in on the BB and prey to the poker gods, unless somebody else calls or raises all in and you think that one of them will get broken on this hand, thus surviving one more hand is critical.
I think you call with any two cards. If you wait until the small blind you will probably have to beat two opponents to win six chips or, even worse, three opponents to win eight and so on.
Again, I always try to make a move before this point. If I am UTG with 4 times the BB or less then I know I have to move this hand or the next. I will raise the UTG hand with _any_ kind of hand. You're better off heads up with trash than 4-handed with some kind of hand.
Andy.
Thanks to you and Mississippi Gambler. I wanted to see if my opponent's play on my 99 hand was reasonable.
These are good to play in when I can find the time (only 5 played, 1st and 3 3rds) but there is one thing that is annoying. You can't see how many chips you have in the middle of a hand. Your stack size is so important in these (and any) tournament. Worse, if you win a hand in a showdown, you can't see your stack size at the start of the next one as your cards are dealt over the top straight away ! I'm going to email PP about this and if anyone else could do so too perhaps they will do something to help.
Andy.
You just move the mouse pointer over yourself and it lists how many $ you have...any time.
Thanks, I knew there must be a way ! I've already sent the E-mail but never mind.
Andy.
Yes, you can see the stack size by putting your mouse over the cards. However its still a pain. What I find happens is that I win a pot, then the cards get dealt too quickly for me to see what my stack size is. I then have to hold up the game while I flial around with the mouse trying to find my stack size.
Clearly they did not have tournements in mind when the designed the GUI. I hope someone listens to your EMail.
I have been thinking about a change of tack in a particular situation and would welcome some feedback. When I raise pre-flop (PL HE tournaments) and catch some of it, or think I am probably winning, I feel obliged to follow it up. However I have got myself busted on occasion when I run into a big hand on a dangerous flop. Examples, I have QQ, flop J22, run into a 2 ; I have AK, flop KJT, run into AQ.
Now, normally all my bets are pot-sized. However, often (as in the two examples above) a pot-size bet is half my stack or more and I am essentially committed. What I am considering is, on a dangerous flop (paired, 3 to a flush, 3 broadway cards etc.), betting half the pot instead. If I am interested in the pot then this is what I will do whether I have overcards, a piece of it or the nuts. If I get called or raised I can then re-evaluate based on my opponent and what I know about him, and hopefully get away from the hand if necessary.
One more thing, most people think I am a tight player. Any comments on the pros and cons of this strategy ?
Thanks in advance,
Andy.
It was unclear to me, are you going to make a half-pot bet your new standard, or only bet half the pot when it's a dangerous flop?
If the latter, then the only real risk is the information that this will provide to your aware opponetns. They will be raising you off the pot a lot more often once they figure this out.
If the former, that main downside seems to be that this gives adequate pot odds (counting implied odds) to those who are chasing you with a flush or open-ended straight draw. When you bet the pot, these players are often either making a bad call, or they have more going for their hand than just the primary draw.
Maybe you should mix it up on somewhat random basis, and bet between half and all the pot each time you bet.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I did mean only when the flop is dangerous. Perhaps I could mix it up on two counts - tend to bet the full pot more when there is, for example, a potential draw on board as well as a pair, and tend to bet the full pot when I have a large enough stack to comfortable get away on a re-raise if I want to. That should be more than enough mixing to confuse most of my opponents (I'm talking about people who call a pot-size raise with A2 because "it's my lucky hand", God bless 'em).
Hopefully I can identify those players who are aware enough to try to re-steal and act accordingly. The question is, will my reads be accurate enough to make this less of a risk than betting the pot in the first place ? Maybe that's a question only I can answer.
Thanks,
Andy.
Andy,
Always consider how many people took the flop with you. If more than two people took the flop I would hesitate to bet at all unless I thought they were weak.
Lets say you raise with AK. You get one caller. The flop is all diamonds like K-T-7. In this situation you can bet half the pot if you think your opponent is afraid of the flop. A very good player may call or reraise you.
With a dangerous flop you are usually in trouble when more than two players take the flop with you.
You're right. In the two cases I mentioned, we were 4 and 5 handed on the flop. In each case I was first to act as well. A check would probably have been better if only to get some more information before committing.
Thanks,
Andy.
As you learned, the SB is the trouble spot. If you were sure, prior to your raise, that they would fold a significant majority of their hands, and since you know the BB is going to fold no matter what, then you should raise. If the SB is a loose player who might call (or reraise) with a large number of hands, then you should fold.
In the absence of information about the SB (which shouldn't be the case, you've bee there awhile), I would fold this hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
PB the game you are refering to I had a big chip lead and was raising the weaker players when I had position on them and I knew they wouldn't call without a big big hand cuz we were down to 4 or 5 and they were short stacked just tryihng to make the money.
Twice yesterday at Paradise I saw shorter stacks (T400-500)limp in UTG with the chip leader on their right in the BB, and the stakes at 50-100 or 100-200. This struck me as ridiculous unless they were planning a limp-reraise (which they weren't in either case). Why give the chip leader a shot at nearly your whole stack without making him pay for it? Not to mention the rest of the table. I would think you should fold or raise in this situation. The blinds are coming but won't wipe you out. Am I wrong here? Just trying to learn about tourney play.
You are correct raise or muck here unless you have a big hand you want to reraise but then one should raise in the 1st place since you need to win here and cutting down on the field will mean a higher % of wins in tournaments which is what you want.
No, you are absolutely correct. Playing these PP tournaments appears to be excellent practice and if you are watching opponents, picking up on their mistakes and thinking about why they are wrong, as you appear to be, you should do pretty well.
Andy.
Years ago the school music instructor said that a clarinet player could learn the saxophone fairly quickly, but to do it the other way around is difficult. It occurred to me today that an accomplished tournament player could adjust more quickly to a ring game than the other way around. This is because the "poker thinking" is about the same but tournament situations add another level of complexity. Yes, no, maybe?
I would tend to think the other way around. You have to learn the basics before you start stepping out.
OK, but my thinking is about a player who already knows the ropes at one or the other.
I'm on Paradise right now. I'm wondering if anyone knows what time the tourney's normally get going. It says they start at 4 but there's no action.
If anyone can help me out I'd appreciate it.
Thanks
The tournament times are posted in the upper right hand corner of screen. In case you are having difficulties the tournaments are run from 4-9 pm and once again from 1-4 am. These are all EST.
I was lurking on RGP (yes, I know I said I was done with them, but shoot, it makes for entertaining reading) and reviewed a thread about the above subject. It brought to mind the televised final of the world poker open where todd brunson was speaking on a cell phone to doyle brunson while in the middle of a hand.
Granted, he was "only" speaking to his dad, and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt either brunson's honesty or honor, but wouldn't this type of action go directly against the one player to a hand rule?
As I see it (granted, again, that I am nearsighted and colorblind so my "sight" may not be accurate;)), you shouldn't be allowed to speak on the phone at all while in the middle of a hand. This situation is even worse in appearances since Todd is speaking to "Doyle Brunson, one of the greatest no-limit tournament or otherwise players in the world". This fact was mentioned by the commentators, but only in reference to Todd's lineage rather than to the rules violation.
As I recall, they even spoke about poker in general and the tournament in particular. Not that this matters, because anyone who wants to cheat in this manner can come up with a code for hands and such so they don't appear to be talking about the game.
How's this supposed to go over to the non player: a finalist is talking on a cell phone about poker to a two time world champ and aknowledged great while playing a hand!! How's poker's image now?
It wouldn't bother me that he's talking to Doyle. I mean, Doyle isn't there, so he can't help Todd get a read on me anyway.
However, there is (or should be) a rule that completely forbids the use of cell phones if you're in a hand. The real problem here is the guy talking to a confederate who's somewhere in the room where he's been able to peek at your cards. Also, cell phones need to be banned from the table, even if the guy doesn't answer. Some of these phones have pager displays, so he could "ignore" his ringing phone, but in looking down at it, read the pager message.
I doubt any of this is all that likely to occur, but it's so easy to do, that they need to ban the cell phones from the table entirely. Ring games are different, and I doubt I would ban them there. However, I would create a rule that if anyone at the table objected, then the cell phone or pager would be banned (unless the player folded and stepped away from the table).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think my main concern is the image that it projects. Everyone wants to make poker more acceptable to the mainstream, but things like this have the ring, if not the intent, of cheating. You may not care if he's talking to Doyle, but I don't think it looks good to a non-committed observer (committed to poker, that is, not that you should be institutionalized :p)
Hi everyone--
This hand from a pp tourney stuck in my head b/c another player went out of their way to berate it and I think they're probably right (though why they want me to learn from my mistakes, i dunno)
anyway, it's 4-handed at 400/800. stacks are (approximate):
leader 3900 2d 1800 me 1600 4th 700
I get 88 utg with 4th in the little blind and 2 in the big blind. I raise to 400, figuring I've got the best hand.
only 2d in small blind calls.
flop aq6. checked to me. I bet 200, hoping to represent an ace or queen with my prefold raise. I get raised to 400, look down at my stack, see that it is low, and make a sad fold to avoid going all in, as i figure that i still have a chance to last out for 3rd. I missed by t20, essentially b/c my blind came sooner.
1. should i have played this hand? 2. after the flop, should i have tried the steal? 3. should i have gone all-in?
thanks.
though prefold is a bit of ironic dyslexia
1) Yes 2) Yes (getting 4-1 on a successful steal) 3) Is not so clear-cut. Reading your post again, shouldn't you have bet 400 on the flop and got raised to 800 ? It's also not clear who you're playing against, 2nd or 4th. Clear these up and I might be able to make a choice.
Andy.
i'm playing against 4th, who has a big stack. 2d has folded with about t20 more than her blinds will cost next round. I can either call the 800 or raise to 956, which is my whole stack and will put me all in on the big blind.
i think the player who berated me thought i had absolutely nothing and was trying to steal the blinds before my blinds come around. This morning, i'm thinking it was me playing weak-timid; I certainly shouldve realized that the hand had a potential to put me all in and that I wasnt likely to see a better hand in the blinds.
You have 88 UTG 4 handed and raise T400 half your stack. This has got to be right.
Small blind with T1800 calls and every one else folds. Flop is AQ6 (suits not mentioned) you bet the flop, and then fold to a reraise.
Your playing as if SB often makes big laydowns and doesn’t raise unless he’s got the goods. However remember that if you fold to the reraise, you have a forced all-in on the next hand and are a big favourite for forth place. While if you call the T400 all in and win, the chips will be, previous leader 3500, SB 200, you 3600, previous 4th 700. So it looks like it will be heads up between you and the other big stack soon.
Assume it’s a $100 tournament. If you fold the raise you equity in the tournament is say about $50, while if you call the raise and win its about $250 say. Hence you need to reckon its about five to one that you are on two outs. I don’t think this will be true for your typical aggressive player.
right. This is the spot that i'm having problems with in tournament play in general. Unless i have a big stack (in which i can play other stacks, putting them all in), i'm going to have to survive an all-in somewhere. I think the fact that it's so easy to get to around 5th in these tourneys by not playing many hands is allowing me to get pushed off of hands which are really good value for the inevitable all-in.
I have found so far that the difference between "surviving" to 5th and 3rd is often all about playing the blinds. Maybe you need to steal more from the SB and defend more in the BB.
Andy.
Opps think I got my maths wrong. Lets look at the position where your are reraised on the flop. Let say you fold. For the next hand the chip position is
BB=You 400, SB 3400, Button 500, UTG 3900.
You have a forced all in, and are busting out about two thirds of the time. The remaining third of the time the chip position on the next deal will be about.
BB 3500, SB=You 1000, Button 3200, UTG 500.
I would now make a guess as your chances are now something like
1ST = 20% 2nd = 20% 3rd = 40% and 4th = 20%.
The payoff will be 1st = 391, 2nd = 191 3rd = 91 and 4th = -109.
This gives and EV if you fold of
(2/3)*(-109) + (1/3)*(0.2*391 + 0.2*191 + 0.4*91 – 0.2*109) = -34.4.
If you call the reraise and loose your EV is obviously –109. If you call and win the chip position will be
BB=You 3400, SB 200 (all in), Button 500, UTG 3900.
You look in good shape and I would guess chances are now something like
1st = 40%, 40%, 15%, 5%.
This gives an EV of 241.
Now if p is the probability that you win when calling the reraise this gives a break-even point of
-36 = 241p – (1-p)109
Solving for p gives p = 163/350 = 0.47.
From this analysis if would appear that you should call if you think the raiser is more likely to be bluffing, if you think he is more likely to have the hand you should fold. In practise I guess it depends just how aggresive your opponent is.
Arrgh! still can't do simple arithmatic
-36 = 241p – (1-p)109
solves to p = 73/350 = 0.21
This suggest you should call if you expect to win at least one time in five. Looks like my first quick guess was spot on.:{)}
this is my assessment as well. However, at the time with the aq flop and the fact that this was a pretty tight player whom i hadn't seen reraise led me to believe he had an a or q. doing it again, i probably would've called, but as 4th busted out 2 hands after me (in 3rd), I thought the chances of the 2 big stacks folding and me duking out with 3rd were better than trying for the 3rd 8.
either way, there doesn't now seem to be a howler of the kind that the other player was berating me for. I had good chances to bust out in 4th, no matter what.
I don't mean this as a slam or anything but did you really need to do the math to come to the conclusion that you should call if you think he's bluffing and fold if you think he's got a hand?
Again, with all respect, I don't think that people who are always thinking about the math in a tournament, is going to win too many of them.
JohnnyD
Good paractise. Do the maths now so that you do not have to think about it in a tournament.
Hi chreode,
I think I would have folded anything but pairs from JJ and up or AK or AQ or KQ in the UTG position. In this tourney, if you 'auto-fold' you may get 3rd without ever betting, and 2nd with one good hand. And 4th is a catastophe.
With the layout you presented, where you have T1600, and you are at 400/800, you will have T1000 left if you need to fold both BB and SB which are coming, which is by no means a sure thing against you. And then Mr. t700 will have to play the blinds...unless you are very unlucky and he is very lucky, you almost automatically get 3rd.
With that said, I played a tourney, couldn't help but get into one of top 4, then Mr. lowest chips (i was 3rd) got lucky 4 times all-in, and I came in 4th by about 10 chips! I still think I did the right thing. Being in 3rd with 2 1/2 times the 4th person's chips is an invitation to check all but the strongest hands and let someone else knock this guy out.
Maybe I am too timid here, please tell me, I could use any advice on these tourneys...although I cannot see missing top 3-4 the way most of the people play. I saw someone with T2500 early on keep betting and raising with garbage when all he needed to do was fold and gurantee in-the-money with good strong shots at 1st or 2nd; he came in 6th or something.
Mark
recently I made it to heads up at the final table of a small limit holdem tournament. I had a chip lead of exactly 1 bet at this point and the blinds were so high in comparison to the total of our stacks that loosing the next hand could be bad. 1st place paid 700 and 2nd paid 350. so I suggested that we make some sort of deal. the only one the guy was willing to go for was 60-40 his way. I told him it was rediculious as it was even money for us to win at this point. he said we had to play then and drew out on my pocket nines the next hand, which we played all in because of my aggression and the fact I had an overpair on the flop. but thats not important. my question is should I have gone for this deal or spit in his face. In hind sight I cost myself 70 dollars but I think I did the right thing. what do yall think?
What was his justification for wanting 60% if you had the same number of chips? Did he think he could outplay you?
If I'm in your position, I don't care if it's TJ (or you pick the name), I'm not going to give them 60% if our stacks are equal.
In general, I don't like deals. I think they are never a good poker decision. But sometimes it's such a crapshoot at the end that they become a good financial decision.
The bottom line is, you were risking $70 to make $280. At those odds, I'll play, even if it's a crapshoot.
JohnnyD
JohnnyD,
Ah . . . so you do look at the odds (hehehe). BTW I agree with what you say.
When you are the one to suggest a deal it puts you in a weak negotiating position. If your opponent would rather play then he can ask for more than his share if he wants to. I'd do the same as your opponent in certain situations and I wouldn't be very happy if someone "spat in my face" for it.
Andy.
First, don't get mad. This is a negotiation, and neither of you is required to make any deal. You can both offer what you want, accept what you want, or do nothing. If his terms seem unreasonable, ask yourself why? Is he ignorant? Is he trying to put you on tilt? (hint, hint). Is he egotistical, and thinks he's a better player? Whatever you determine, try to figure out how to use it to your advantage.
Given your facts, I suspect this guy thinks he's better than you, and/or is trying to tilt you. I might turn his offer around. Tell him "I don't think so. You're a pretty weak player. You give me 60:40, or we play." Maybe he'll be the one to go on tilt.
Or, tell him "Well, it's true that you're a strong player, but I just can't give you 60 when our stacks are even. I think I'll just try to get lucky." Now, hopefully, he thinks you really are afraid of him. This may induce him to bluff too much, and may cause him to figure that you will be scared to bluff. Thus, you can bet/raise and expect (hope for) him to fold too much.
I'm sure you can think of other possibilities.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well, I must say that I am very pleased that you like my posts! Thank you!
Somebody said that playing all group 1 hands was too loose??? How can that be? This tourney is so short - 800 in chips and the blinds start at 15-30, doubling every 10 hands? Sounds like you need to win one hand more than you lose for each limit increase.
Some people place by setting their computer on auto fold? If you get 2 guys like that on your left that's great! Just steal thier blinds every time. You should cruise to 1st place no problem if you could do that.
A short tourney like this is really a crap shoot. But if everyone is playing too tightly, just raise preflop with any hand that you would play and push it aggressively if the flop hits you.
I will read the other posts. Be careful about taking my advice because I don't have much experience with such fast tournaments, but this is the way I see it.
-SmoothB-
>Thanks for the help. $33 an hour is pretty good!
Actually I got my spread sheet wrong, and it was only $25 which fell back to around $15 before going back up to $24 a tourney after a few wins. I have now played over 50 of them.
>I watched Rounder win a tournament the other day, he showed me some of the hands >he was playing. He played a lot more hands than I have seen him play in the past.
I think I exaggerated a little in my first post. How tight to play at any moment in a tournament is often a difficult thing to judge.
One of the main factors is what proportion of your stack you are risking in playing a hand. Ignoring the effect of the blinds we might say that If you are risking less than 5% say, then its probably OK to play nearly as loosely as you would in a ring game. 50% then I would say you need to increase your opening standards by two to three steps. If you usually open A9o, don’t open unless you have AJo or maybe even AQo. While if you are going all in, then you need about odds of three to two on all money going in to the pot, and in particular you need group one hands out side the blinds and the button.
However things change slightly when we consider the blinds. Just those times when other factors would dictate playing ultra-tightly, the danger of being blinded out in the next few hands would induce us to play more loosely.
Balancing these two conflicting trends is what makes the difference.
As regards playing heads up, the section in HPFAP is excellent. The key is to ask oneself how one defends against someone who bets/raises at each opportunity. Every thing follows on from there.
At the first level of the PP tournments, the blinds are 10/15 and betting limits are 15/30. Very often, there will be a couple calls and the small blind can get excellent multi-player action for a mere $5. This is a natural call for suited connectors and small pairs.
Now occasionally, there will be seven or more callers and the small blind will be getting odds of over 20-1. My question, what hands DON'T you play here as the small blind?
You should play them all.
The hard part is not getting yourself suckered into losing a lot more than 5 when you hit the flop, but not hard enough. That comes down to playing the situations, and the players, optimally.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Small offsuited non connectors need to flop two pair or better to carry on after the flop. This is about thirteen to one.
Guess that means you need six others in the hand before you can call with 72o.
I get 26 to 1. If you have 72o there are 720 possible flops containing 22, 77, or 72 out of 19,600 possible flops. This includes full houses for 3.67%. So who's right?
Hello,
Canterbury Park recently announced they will hold Sunday morning Tournaments with the following structure:
Limit of 90 players $10 Buy In. Each player gets $900 in Tournament Chips. 10 9-Player Tables play 15/30 for one hour. At the end of the hour, the chip leader from each table gets to the final table.
Each player again starts with $900 in chips and they play 15/30 for one hour, chip leader at the end wins.
The blinds are always $5 and $15 and never change.
First Prize is $1000, I think the total prize pool is around $2,000.
Sounds like fun for the cheap $10 entry fee. Any advice on strategy for a this kind of tournament? (Other than "Get good cards in a hurry")
are the numbers right? that sounds like a great overlay.
I had the same concerns myself. I just called Canterbury Park to confirm the details.
There will be 9 10-Player tables to start and 1 10-Player final table, but otherwise they confirmed all the other information.
so the casino is putting in $1100???
That appears to be the case. I did a few double takes myself.
Here is their address and phone number, call them and check it out if you like.
Canterbury Park Card Club 1100 Canterbury Road Shakopee, MN 55379 (952)445-7223 1-800-340-6361
Play your normal strategy for the first 30 minutes or so, and if the cards come you'll have a chip lead.
After that, it's all a question of getting the lead at whatever risk. If you were to obtain an insurmountable lead (at least, insurmountable if they only get to play a few more hands), then you need to stall as much as possible on your turn. That is, even if you know immediately that you're going to fold your 23o, sit there and think about it as long as they'll let you get away with it.
If you don't have the lead, don't let the leader do the above. Call for a clock to be put on them immediately.
Also, once it gets near the end, if you're not the leader, you need to be in there capping the pot no matter how worthless your hand is. 3 bets to you, and you have 72o? Cap it! At this point, you have to get lucky to get the chip lead. If you start with bad cards, stay in there and hope for a great flop.
Also, if you're the leader, when it's clear that a big pot is developing, and that someone is going to take over your lead when they win it, you might have to get in there and mix it up with bad cards anyway. Now, if it's not the last hand, you might choose to not play total garbage, but sitting out the last hand only to be guaranteed 2nd place at your table is of no value.
Basically, this is a stupid format. It puts a higher premium on luck than anything else that comes to mind at the moment. You just have to position yourself so that you need less luck than the opposition.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for the response, Greg.
I appreciate the advice, it jives with what I had suspected.
I agree that it is a stupid format, but for $10 to win $1000 or one of the smaller $200 or $100 places, I'll probably enter.
It does sound like fun, but probably more luck than other formats.
I would play very aggressive on any hands I play. I would have a mindset that I am going to jump to a big lead or get busted quickly. And I would watch the clock. Because if you start running out of time, then you have to play aggressive even with bad hands.
JohnnyD
YOU MUST PLAY TRUE,YOUR BEST FOR FIRST 40 MINUTES LIKE LIVE GAME,THEN TAKE RISK IF NEEDED AFTER LAST HAND OR TWO MAY HAVE TO BE PLAYED DEPENDING ON CHIP POSITION NO MATTER WHAT.
The final few hands of the first round are going to be Wild! I'd like to be there just to watch.
My earliest exit ever from the FW Tuesday night NL HE tourney. Not my worst performance (I've lost more money), but without a doubt my earliest finish.
T200 to start. I (and 4 others at my table) take the T200 rebuy before the first hand is dealt. We have a nice, but nervous and clearly inexperienced with NL, old lady from Florida. She plays in the dreadful poker games they offer down there. 25 and 50 cent betting, $10 pot-size maximum, house rakes like $3 or $4 per pot. Everyone is just playing for the bad beat and royal flush jackpots. They also offer tourneys. 10 players, $55 buyin. House pays $250 to winner, $150 to second. Sounds bad, right? It gets worse. Tourney plays for a specific limit (it wasn't clear if it was 1 hour or 21 hands, but it is limited). Chip leaders at end of period get the money, so luck is a big factor, more so than most tourneys. Wait, it gets worse. Optional $15 addon before the first hand, let's you double your chip total. House keeps 100% of this money. So, final tally, in a format that puts skill at a minimum, is players pay $700 for an hour or so of playing time, and the house keeps $300 of it!
Anyway, I won a bit during the first and third levels, lost a bit during the second, and had won T230 over what I paid for. Took the double add-on, and after the break was over, I had T1030, or the third biggest stack at the table. I have the button, and fold. I have the cutoff seat, 1 limper, I raise the 15,25 blinds to T100 with KK. Loose, aggressive player on the button goes all-in for T535. SB folds and the old lady from Florida calls from the BB. As I've learned, her knowledge of poker, and NL poker, is limited. If she considers a hand playable, she sees the flop with it, no matter what action has taken place. So, her call just means she has any "playable" hand, seriously. So, this limits her to 1 of about 30% of the total possible hands. No way I give her credit for AA, and the guy behind is so loose aggressive, he could have as weak as any pair or AQo. I decide to reraise now rather than see the flop, as I know I have better than her, and I don't want her to be able to get away from the flop. I rereraise all-in, T495 more. She calls without hesitation (just as she did when the LA guy raised before).
Board comes T high with 3 clubs. LA has QQ, but the old lady has AcQc for the nut flush. Actually, by the time I rereraised, she actually made a correct call. She was getting about 4:1 on her last call, and with her live A, she should call.
So, there are about T40,000 in play, and she now has a little over T3,000 with about 45 players remaining. I tried to bet the guy next to me that she wouldn't make the final table. He wouldn't take the bet.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
So you don't want her to get away from the flop (hehehe)?
Greg, these kind of players are great to have in a tournament. When they bet or call, all you have to do is call them. The reason why I say this is they usually bet if they like the flop, if they're afraid of it they check. When they check it is usually pretty obvious they have nothing or are scared. With these players I usually steal it from them on the flop or turn depending on the situation because they are so easy to read.
Better luck next time.
it is really sad if what you say is exact in respect to what fw charges for the tournament. they may be too stupid or too greedy to understand what it will do to their tournaments long term. with those rakes i can see now why you degenerated into a keno player:) the lady really plays for me and i sent her up there specifically to break you in the games then rathole the chips and pass them to another player i have in the game. thats why he wouldnt bet you. now you know the rest of the story.
No Ray, that is NOT what FW charges. I was discussing the tourneys and side games available at certain locations in FLORIDA (where the old lady was from).
At FW, the rakes are quite reasonable, and in line or cheaper than those I am used to paying in California or Vegas. The typical rake for a daily tourney here in FW is $5 or $10. While it often makes up a big percentage of the buyin, I don't see how they can get along with only $3 or $5 instead and make a profit. Plus, they give you much more play than any club I've ever been in before. The $20 ($15 + $5) tourneys on the weekend typically start with 60-100 players and last for 5-6+ hours. For the same price in California, tourneys lasted about half as long.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
sorry i read your post too quickly and got punished. i will never make that mistake again if you give up playing keno with my money unless you play my lucky numbers that are guaranteed to show a profit or 75% of your money back, no questions asked.
I read elsswhere about a play from a serious tournament player where his opponent bet all-in and he CALLED with pocket twos. They were heads-up.
I can only think of two circumstances where I would make this call:
1. My opponent flashed a card and I saw another 2.
2. My opponent was a much better player than me and I hoped to get lucky and catch him on an AK or AQ. I would figure this might be my best chance to get all-in on a breakeven proposition.
Would you ever make this call otherwise?
Of course, if I already had most of my stack invested in the blind, that would change things. But that was not the way it was presented. It sounded more like the guy was applauding himself for his great call, because hey, he was in the lead, wasn't he?
Calling an all in raise is marginal at best. Probably a loser in the long run. Although I remember doing it once myself (and winning after flopping a full house) I would not do it again.
In fact, it should NEVER be correct to make this call unless most of your stack is in the pot already.
If your opponent is raising all in preflop on EVERY hand, it is wrong to call. Your hand is about 50.2 : 49.8 favorite over a random hand. You should wait for a hand that is at least 55% winner over a random hand to call an opponent playing like this. (55 % is just a rough estimate - it might be a bit off.)
If your opponent is raising MOST of the time, but not all the time, then it is clearly not correct to call. There is a greater chance that he is raising all in with an overpair and now you will be an underdog against a slightly better than random hand.
Again, exceptions might be when most of your stack is in. Or if the blinds are becomming very large in proportion to your stack. But I would be a lot more happy if I could push all in and make him fold than CALLING an all in raise. Yuck.
I would rather call an all in raise vs a very aggressive opponent with AJ offsuit than 22. See my other posts for an explaination. It makes sense.
-SmoothB-
I think I cover the bases pretty well in my first posting in this thread.
By the way, 99 is a MUCH MUCH better hand than 22! Not even remotely in the same ball park. 22 is no more than a tiny tiny favorite over the worst hands that might push all in, and it is an underdog to many. There are many hands that might push all in that 99 is a big favorite over - any pair 8's or lower, any face card with a kicker 9 or lower, etc. There are only 5 hands that are much better, and all of the rest are underdogs.
There ARE no hands that 22 is a big underdog to except for other hands that contain a deuce.
Again, even if you opponent is pushing all in with a completely random hand every time, it is still incorrect to call! Sklansky and others have written about this before so I will not elaborate.
-SmoothB-
I am still scratching my head that this issue was not obvious to everybody. To analyze this issue, the "math" is ALL that matters. I guess some guys just choose to adhere to the dogma that math doesn't matter.
Of course, Zee raises a good "poker" point that you have to take a stand sometime or your opponent will run you over. But I will take my stands by getting my chips into the pot first or calling with something other than 22.
It's all about stack size and stage of the tournament.
What was the stack size of the better and what was the stack size of the caller and were there any other players left that could take action. Was it the first hand of the tournament or final table.
What % of the time 22 beats other hand is of little importance.
JohnnyD
Well, since they were heads-up, it is probably at the end of the tournament, or else its a pretty small tournament.
That answers your other questions about other players taking action.
As to stack sizes and the size of the blinds being important- duh, no kidding. I stated that in the original post.
And if stack size and blind size is important, then how can the % of the time that 22 wins be "of little importance"? You are CALLING a bet here with no further action. Winning the showdown is the only way you can win the hand.
I misread the original post. I assumed they became heads up on this hand. I did not read it as they were the last two in the tournament.
Given that it is heads up at the end of the tournament, I still stand by my original statement that stack size is more important than the % of times 22 will win. How well you know you're opponent is the other.
But, in general, heads up at the end of the tournament against a good player....I will call most of the time.
JohnnyD
Johnny D is of course unequivacably incorrect.
I'm not sure where you're saying I'm wrong.
Am I wrong to call with 22 most of the time?
Am I wrong that stack size is the most important factor?
Here's my thinking. In these tournaments that end up a crapshoot at the end, a good player is going to be betting with lots of hands less than 22. No good player is going to sit around and wait for a big pocket pair or AK, etc. With 22, you're going to be ahead most of the time.
JohnnyD
David,
While you seem to believe that 22 isn't strong enough to call here, I think the consensus was that is was ok to raise (and later get all-in) on 88, which I thought was too weak given the tourney format where the blinds are super high and 'auto-fold' virtually guarantees being in the mone; and betting on 'low' cards likely gives you 4th place and ZERO.
David, maybe this is a theory question, but it is about tourneys specifically:
What holding is strong enough to call a raise or raise yourself when you might have 4-5 hands before you must act (your blinds come up which will kill you) ? What about 10 hands left (two rounds of blinds with 5-6 players)?
Thanks,
Mark
Mark,
The standards vary according to the players yet to act behind you and how loose/tight they are. Two points worth bearing in mind 1) Two face cards are a better hand in this spot than Ace-small and 2) You need _much_ more to play in a raised pot than to raise yourself.
Andy.
If my opponent is not selective of the hands that he is playing and is moving-in on any Ace-rag or playing loosely I'll call because percentagewise he is not going to be holding a pair, therefore making me a slight favorite.
What would you call an all-in with? If you believe the bet is done only by someone who would do so only with a big pair, then you of course fold. However, if he would do so with AK, AQ, AJ, then I think a call is okay. At this point is 22 really any different than 99?
I tend to agree with my buddy JohnnyD
Tom Overton Denton, Texas
Here's a little bit which I read which might relate to this conundrum:
A well-known pro was playing a 7stud no limit freezeout vs. a high rolling fish. Something along the lines of $50,000 buy in, with reasonably ratio'ed ante/bringin.
A hand comes up in which on 4th street, the pro has a big split pair, and the patronly gentleman has a 4 flush with no pair. He is a slider, and does exactly that. The pro is left to wonder, 'Should I beat him to the pot? I'm a 52% (or something to that effect) favorite. I clearly have the best of it! What is my move?'
He, of course, decided that while he could afford this loss, why not wait until this guy makes a less marginal mistake, then drill him!!!!
If it's a battle of two equals, or blinds/antes play a factor, etc., etc., I think David is right. However, both he and JohnnyD are severely generalizing the question.
DanS
id like to be playing that pro. first of all the 4 flush is the favorite over a high pair on 4th street. he does not clearly have the best of it. and if the pro wont take stands the other player will certainly grind him down where he will be a dog to win as he will need to win twice or more to get all the chips.
RayZ, Sorry, I apologize on the numbers. I needed to have my balls busted. The point I was trying to make was that at certain times, a small edge must be pounced on, while at other times, you should wait until the coin is weighted in your favor (figuratively coin toss speaking!).
Dan
very true as long as you believe the bigger edge is around the corner before you lose enough waiting for it to negate any advantage you may have.
Ray, May I just say that just about every answer I have seen you post has not only been totally correct but written in a concise and sensible manner. You are a stud.
The call is incorrect. The answer lies in the fact that you are always facing two overcards and the best you can hope for is a 50/50 chance of winning even if your opponent was bluffing. (Yes I know that you can argue for your 2% edge, but esentially you are betting on a coin flip). In the event your opponent does hold a pair, it is larger than yours and you are a substantial underdog. It does not matter whether that pair is 33 or AA.
The difference between 22 and 99 is substantial. There are no pairs that 22 can beat while 99 can beat 22-88, all of which a good player might bet when he first in. Also 99 has a large edge over a hand like A8s whereas 22 is mearly 50/50.
While there are a few situations where stack size would make calling a good play (such as when you have a large stack and are trying to eliminate the small stacks late in the tournment), in general this is a bad call. Good players look for situations where they are likely to have a bigger edge than 1 or 2%
I reread the original post. And I can't believe that I am the only to to mention stack size. This is a tournament! Stack size matters. If you have your opponent 10-1 in stack size, do you still think it's a bad call? What if he has you 10-1. I would call in both of those cases. If we're about even, I might not.
I also can't believe David posted that I was wrong and did not comment as to why.
JohnnyD
One more time. You are NOT the only one who mentioned that stack size and blinds were important. My original post said, "of course if I already had a large % of my stack invested in blinds that would change things." I then said that that wasn't what the original poster implied.
For arguments sake, lets assume you are equal in stack size and that the blinds are only 5% of each stack.
DS didn't explain probably because the answer is so obvious to him. When you CALL FOR ALL YOUR CHIPS with 22, the best you can hope for is that you have an even-money proposition. But if your opponent has any pair, you are buried. It is the classic case of your being either a tiny favorite or a big underdog. Good players generally avoid such situations.
Michael.
You are pretty testy for someone who wrote a really garbled post. People are analyzing your question based on your words; not a good reason to jump on them.
You wrote:
"I read elsswhere about a play from a serious tournament player where his opponent bet all-in and he CALLED with pocket twos. They were heads-up."
Why would you then write (in bold, even) "you CALL FOR ALL YOUR CHIPS" as if you are clarifying your own earlier post.
Clearly, both of these conditions can only be true if both stacks were identical at the start of the hand, something you never mentioned.
A clearly written post will generate the answer you are looking for much more often than the type you posted in this case. You are the one in control of your own frustrating circumstances.
KJS
If it were late in the tournment and I had a 10:1 chip edge, I would call. This was the exception, I specificlly mentioned in my earlier post. I would probably not call in the early or middle stage of a tournment even with a 10:1 chip advantage. I have seen too many early chip leaders eliminated by making too many loose calls, then losing a big hand. Had they not made all of those loose calls earlier, they might well have enough chips to play on. The only other exceptions as to when I would call are mentioned in Michael7's original post.
Calvin, note that I said there is really no difference in 22 and 99 if you know your opponent will only go all-in with a big pair, then you fold. However, If you know he will go all-in with only AK, AQ, or AJ, then there is no differenc in a 22 or 99. I agree that if you think he would go in with Ax, then of cource, 99 is better than 22.
Couple hands around the bubble. Input from the forum is appreciated. 5 places payed. Payoffs are 5th-130 4th-220 3rd 385 2nd 680 1st 1180. If two players bust out on the same hand, they split the money. Chip count does not matter. 1) 6 Players left, UTG with 6 chips. Blinds are 2 and three chips, betting is 3-6. you have A-10 suited. two players to your left has 5 chips left. Raise or muck?
2) 6 players left. you have 10 chips. Big stack on your right has been pushing his chip advantage and raises once again. you have AK off. only big stack in the pot. BB (other shot stack) has three in the pot and two left. Re-raise, call or fold?
3) 6 players left. you have one chip. SB is all in. raised in front of you by big stack who has been raising a lot. you have KK. go all in or fold?
1. Raise 2. Re-raise 3. go all in
I'm not going to play just to get $130 for 5th place. I'm going to try to build enough chips to make it to the bigger money.
These are absolutely the best plays for me and my motives for playing. These might not be the best moves for a player where $130 is important.
JohnnyD
1 - Raise! If you just fold through the blinds to make this guy bust, you'll have only 1 chip left. And, there is almost a 50% chance that he makes it through the blinds. You'll be giving up almost all hope for a higher finsh in exchange for a 50:50 shot at 5th place money. Heck, even if this gives you a 75% shot at 5th place money, it isn't worth it. Raise now, and hope that no one else has picked up an even better hand.
2 - 10 chips? Good. That means you raised the AT, got called by the BB, and won. Then, you've folded your blinds and are now on the button. Here, I would fold. Your AK is almost certainly the best hand, but you'll have to go all-in to find out, and may end up with only half of 5th place money as a result. If you fold, there is a good (>50%) chance that the BB will bust out, which will lock up all of 5th place for you, and give you decent equity in the other positions. If you had AA or KK, certainly reraise. QQ, probably also. JJ? I'm not sure, it depends upon everybody's chip counts.
3 - 1 chip? Don't tell me you reraised and then folded to save 1 chip with at least 24 chips in the pot? I hope this means you reraised and checked it down and lost to some little pair. Anyway, now that you're stuck in this spot, go for it. If you win, you'll have 4 chips. While this doesn't get you anything, it does mean you're only 1 more pot away from being able to survive a little. KK has a good shot at winning, and if it doesn't, it is pretty unlikely that you'll lose the main pot while the SB wins the side pot. This means that when you lose, most of the time you'll get to share 5th place money with the SB. When you win, SB will often lose the side pot at the same time, thus getting you chips AND locking up 5th place money. Because you will share 5th place so often when you do lose here, I would tend to call with a pretty wide range of hands, anything that I think is a solid favorite over the big stack.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Raise Raise Call. Play to win !
The main reason I disagree with Greg on (2) is that the BB will certainly call if he is at all aware and must have some chance of winning. If he wins his all-in hand you'll regret passing the AK up when you have way the best of it.
Andy.
in the 80's i think, i played in a 1,000 dollar buyin tournament in billings mt.. one of the players fairly early on had a heart attack and no one knew it. he just left the room and was anteed off in the tournament. he came in about 5th place and got a few thousand dollars. it was amazing to see him have the big blind and win a pot by the small blind folding. i won that tournament with tommy cosib 2nd and george huber 3rd. us three being the only out of towners present that i can remember.
The game is Omaha-8. 9 Players at the final table, I'm the button. two callers so far, both from middle position. I am currently 6 of 9 in chips with about 3000. the blinds are about even stacked with me, 3500 we'll say. the first caller has about 2000, second is number two to the chip leader with about 12000. I have As3s3h6c. I call the 800 blind. the SB folds BB checks. flop is 3d6hJc. all players check. I bet all-in. BB calls and the rest fold. he has A47X, turn is a 5 giving him a straight w/low. I loose. Question one- is this hand playable before the flop? should I raise all-in before the flop? the person with 12000 I don't consider to be a good player and I'd expect him to call if I go all in. Question two- Should I have gone all in on the flop?
thanks for your advice
spelled lose wrong. oops
Steve, All-in with that hand before the flop is probably not a good idea...As far as playability goes, I suppose you could have waited for a slightly better hand, but sometimes in tourneys you gotta gamble (I'm also not sure what the payout structure was like)... Flopping a set, esp. bottom one is not the same in Omaha as it is in Holdem. But at that point when it is check check check to you and you have flopped a set, you may as well play it like you did.
Steve - As3s3h6c is a mediocre hand, at best. If the extra three has any value, it is solely to reduce the danger of getting counterfeited or quartered. Low pairs, like treys, are traps in Omaha-8 (as demonstrated here). The six is a poor to mediocre low back-up. You really want a four as a low back-up for A-3.
But even if you had As3s4h6c, you should not get involved, considering your table position and chip standing. (You're on the button, it will be seven deals before you have to post a blind, and you'll almost certainly be forced to go all-in on the next hand you play).
If you were one hand away from being big blind, you might be more inclined to voluntarily play As3s3h6c. But you're not yet desperate. You especially don't want to voluntarily go up against a big stack (as you are here) with As3s3h6c (or even As3s4h6c).
I think As3s3h6c is playable in a loose ring game, and in some tournament situations (but not here). Your nut flush draw wants as many opponents as possible, as does your low draw. You don't have enough opponents in the situation you described to justify getting involved with the hand. (Early in a tournament there might be enough callers to justify playing As3s3h6c).
Is the hand playable before the flop early in the tournament? Yes, in an unraised pot. You get out immediately if you don't like the flop.
Is the hand playable before the flop when you are next in line to post the blind? Yes, in an unraised pot. Again you get out immediately if you don't like the flop.
Is the hand playable before the flop when, nine handed at the final table, you are on the button and there are only two callers exclusive of the blinds? No.
Should you go all-in before the flop with this hand? NO.
Just my opinion.
Buzz
I would have gone all-in before the flop and hoped to get lucky. I'd rather take a stand with a pair + four low cards + a suited ace than with something like 9-Q-2-3.
Early stages of tournement. I am an aggressive tough player from 10-20 and 20-40 and most people know this and are naturally intimidated. (most players there play 2-4, 3-6). I have T400 and make it T75 to go utg with KhQh. I get one caller from middle position who has been calling with drawing hands and such, but never re-raises. He will just call to see the flop and is generally a weak player. We take the flop heads up.
Flop comes Ah Ad Jc
Now I have a couple options but I really want to see what this guy is going to do so I check. He bets T50 into this pot. Now I have seen him hit the flop and just move in when he did, so his action here to me is a I have a Jack but I want to test the waters and see what he does and not over commit to the pot. In about 2 seconds I read him for QJs.
Here is my thinking, (right or wrong). I have pretty good control over this guy because he knows I am aggressive but play tightly. I can either fold or raise all in here. (IMHO) I examine my situation, If he indeed has QJ I have 2 over cards (i count the Q because I have him outkicked) a backdoor flush draw and what amounts to a gutshot straight draw. I have outs, but I'm hoping he folds here. I think I may even get him to fold A-rag due to my pre-flop raise. I move all in.
He thinks for about 10 seconds and groans as he calls and he flips over A7o. Uh oh. Busted.
Turn brings a heart to give me some hope but the river is a blank and I go out. I muck my hand face down and the people at the table ask to see it and the dealer turns it over. KQs. They are in awe that I made this play but The guy said that he almost folded trips to that raise, so I wasn't far off I think. So much for my tight image huh?
Well feel free to rip into me for this one but I feel my thinking on this play while extremely aggressive is not too far out of line. I'm sure Rounder is going to tear me a new one though. Thanks for the input. I know that most of you would fold this situation but look at it objectively before you comment.
Gregg,
I’m a novice on this forum so excuse me if I'm way off here but IMHO...
I wouldn't raise UTG in no-limit with KhQh unless I was in danger of being blinded out. You don’t say what the blinds were at this point in the tournament but it doesn’t seem like you’re were in an all or nothing situation here.
When the flop comes Ah Ad Jc, you check, your opponent bets T50 and you raise all-in.
This seems like a bad move to me. The flop has missed you, all you have is a drawing hand and your opponent most likely has 2 pair or a set - I’d fold to his bet on the flop.
If the other guy had the QJ suited you read him for then you’re behind. Yes, you have outs, but I figure it’s about 3 to 2 against you drawing out on him if he holds QJ. I don't like to put all my money in the middle if I think I'm behind.
You were thinking that moving all in might even get him to fold A-rag because of your pre-flop raise. If this player is as weak as you say (and calling a pre-flop raise with A7o suggests to me that he is) then I doubt that anything would make him lay down a set of aces here, despite what he said after the hand.
In any case, commiserations on busting out, and apologies if I sound over critcal - I talk a much better game than I play.
THat was a very strong but somehwat ill-advised play for a tough player. Against 2-4 and 3-6 players the only way you will get them to lay down trip aces there is with a handgun. Especially if they view you as a "aggressive, tough 20-40 player", who they are aware will try to muscle them. Hell, most of them won't lay down a jack here as they are oddly awrae that the presence of two aces on board greatly reduces the odds that you are holding one.
Not sure what the blinds were, but with your check-raise, you were risking your last 350 to win the 200 plus blinds in the pot. It seems a little too early to resort to these tactics, especially since 75 of the pot were chips you didn't need to put in there in the first place since KQs is pretty weak UTG in a no-limit tourney.
And you might want to thinbk more about your image as the low limit guys certainly aren't intimidated by you if they are calling your UTG raises with A7o.
Gregg,
When it's early in the tournament and you check on the flop, your opponent will think you are afraid of the flop, or are trapping to get more money in the pot since it is early in the tournament and the blinds are small, that is if he is a good player.
When you check to a weak player he will think you have nothing or will not even think about your hand at all. A weak player will bet if he has something and check if he does not. Almost all weak players are like this, so in this case you fold.
The only other play I can suggest is to bet out on the flop with a pot size raise, or if you are short stacked to move-in. This move works against passive and tight players. Considering your position, there are a lot of players that would fold. But, make sure it is not someone that is very aggressive or you'll be in for a surprize.
Give it up on the flop. How can you outplay a weak player? With a bazooka barrel staring him in the face he ain't laying down triplets.
I also think you overplayed your hand before the flop. KQ in no-limit is an easily dominated hand where you can be badly dominated.
Bruce
Gregg,
Some friendly advice from a low limit player: don't overestimate your table image! As a rule, we low limit fishies tend to look at our cards and pay little attention to anything else.
Your opponent was clearly of the "Ax is a great hand in any position" school of thought. Nothing you could have done before the flop would have gotten him off his hand. And once he had trip Aces, only a direct command from God would have caused him to fold his hand.
Save table image tactics for the 5-10 yokels. To beat us low limit fishies you usually have to shown down the best hand.
Big Steve
Gregg,
On further reflection, I think your table image may actually have had some impact on the play of this hand - and it worked against you!
Your image could not alter the play of the hand, but it probably scared your fish opponent enough to cancel the classic tell that would have warned you that he had a big hand.
When we low level fishies flop a big hand, we cannot conceal our joy no matter how hard we try! We have a classic "beam" about us - a sure danger sign of a big hand. It might be a smile, or a glint in our eyes, or whatever. But it is like a flare in the night.
However your table image probably scared your opponent into seeing bad beats everywhere. He probably figured you for AK. He was scared. He didn't have the "beam". But he didn't fold either. So in a way, you got the worst of all possible worlds, thanks to your image.
Just some food for thought.
Big Steve
Actually I live 40 kilometers away from the casino, where the tourney is played, but I came home from the USA just a few hours after the final hand was played. I only know, that Phil Hellmuth won. But the rest?
Thanks in advance
M.A.
I'm not sure of the chip counts but in this hand they didn't really matter. It was fairly early in the tournament so both my opponents and myself had about the same stacks. I raise from early position with QQ and get two callers, one of which is the big blind. The flop comes KQJ offsuit. Checked to me, I bet, both call. The turn is a blank and I get check raised by the BB. I just call as does the middle position player. Should I have re-raised? The river is an Ace. The BB checks. I now know that he doesn't have the straight but the middle position very well could. Should I bet or check it down? I checked as did the other guy.
My Set of Queens were good and I was kicking myself for not getting more out of the hand. What do you guys think?
Thanks.
Early in the tournament there is a lot to be said for checking hands down on the river when you could be second-best (on occasion) rather than trying to extract full value. You can't win these tournaments in the first half hour but you can go a long way towards losing them if you're not careful.
Andy.
I agree, play cautiously early in the tourney, the extra bet you could win doesn't end up helping as much as the 2 bets you could lose hurt you. Is this a corollary of the generally theory of structured payout tournaments, that chips in a small stack are worth more than chips in a big stack?
It is a NLHE tournament. It payed 5 places, and there were six of us left. The blinds are 1000-2000, and I have about 30,000 in tournament chips. I am one off the button. The person directly to my right(the chip leader with about 45,000) raises and makes it 12,000 to go. This guy has been playing agressively with his chip lead, and has bought a couple of pots with plays similar to this. I read him for an Axo. I look at my hand and I have AQs so I call. The button also calls so I figure him for a pair. The flop is 6h6s6d. The player to my right checks, as do I. The button then moves all in for about 7,000. The player to my right instantly folds. I read the button for a pair of jacks or tens. I am almost positive that the guy has a better hand than me, but I figured that I have at least 5 outs and the pot was too big to fold for such a small bet so I call. I flip over my AQs, and he flips over his jacks. Luckily the river brought a queen, and I won the pot and went on to win the whole tournament. Did I play correctly?
If you had read him for A-x, the better play would've been to move all-in before the flop. Even against an underpair, that would've been my move -- if I played the hand.
On the flop, let's look at your math first: 39,000 in the pot, calling a 7,000 bet, you're getting better than 5-1 and the price against you is about 3-1, so you do have the price.
But in my opinion, this decision had to be made from a tourney perspective. Was this a good decision to play this hand based on where you were in chips and what the payout was? You risked going broke and not even finishing in the money -- when all you had to do was wait one hand to ensure a money finish. Yet I'm not saying you made a bad decision there either -- I feel that is a personal decision, where some of us feel strongly about trying to amass a large stack even if we bust out, and others feel strongly that getting into the money first should be the primary goal.
According to Brian's account, there would have been $46,000 in the pot at the time he was faced with the $7,000 call, so that's actually 6.6:1 pot odds. He counted at least 5 outs (which would be around 20% to hit in 2 cards), but I count 6 outs, assuming that the big stack folded an ace: the other two aces, three queens, and the case 6. So that's around 24% to hit, although you need to adjust down a little because the jacks can redraw with another jack on any out but the 6. So odds against are somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1 against. Brian is not risking busting out on this hand - if he folds, he will have around $18,000 left vs. $11,000 if he calls and loses. So if he is really confident in his read on the other two players, he should probably take the money odds and call.
While one may question Brian's decision to call preflop, it seems to me that the button made an even bigger error by just calling with his jacks. He's calling for 2/3rds of his stack here - what is he going to do if the flop comes with a single overcard and one of the two bigger stacks bets into him? If he's going to play at all here, I think he should go all-in preflop and make sure he can see all five cards. If he reads the situation the same way Brian did - Ax vs A-big, then the other two players are collectively drawing to a bit better than 5 outs, and jacks are better than 50-50 to triple up.
If you were sure that your AQ was the best hand, then you should have reraised preflop. If the big stack folds, then great, you've just made T15,000. If not, then you get to go in as a good favorite.
The problem with just calling is that you let other people in, and that you won't know what to do when you miss the flop. For example, what if the flop had been T94, and the big stack bet into you? He could easily have hit his kicker, and you'd only have 3 outs if called. Or, he could be continuing his bluff, and he only has 3 outs to your hand. But, how do you know? This is a big pot by now, and you can't afford to misplay it either way. If you're not so sure you're ahead preflop, then just fold and move on. Of your 3 choices, I believe that calling preflop is the worst.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Its either a pass or an all-in - either are acceptable. Remember that even loose agressive players can have a good hand - also 12k is a big raise before the flop.
good luck
Last Saturday I went to AC to try my hand at a few of the satellite tourneys for the poker championships in December.
I was very disappointed by the structure of the one-table satellite tourneys. While all types and levels were offered, you were only given $200 in chips and the betting levels started at 10/20 and moved up every 15 minutes (to 15/30, 30/60, 50/100, etc.)
This seemed like a total crap shoot.
Big Steve,
Yeah, I play exclusively at the Taj and satellites there are VERY poor. I've played in 2 stud Supersats for the $4000 Stud event, but I KNOW how bad the structure is and do it just to see if I can get lucky. Don't let them discourage you. The only sats worthwhile at the Taj are the one-tables for the big tourneys--but they are expensive. The rest are definitely a CRAP shoot--you'll actually do better playing craps to win your entry fees.
I've heard Netprofit Casino made big $$$ pay-offs on August. Rumorz or truth?..
Tried my hand at Holdem/Omaha, one round of each, PL tournament last night. At the final table, 7-handed, standard prize structure ie not much outside the top four, blinds 1000-1000 on the button.
Omaha, passed to me in the cut-off with 3456 no suits, I have 11K chips which is a little above average. I call for 1000. Button bets 3000. Other blind calls. I call. 6 on the flop, free turn, no help, blind bets I fold.
Question 1) Normally in Hold-em if it was passed to me in the cut-off I would not call, I would raise or fold. Am I right to call sometimes in Omaha or is it raise-or-fold as well ? 2) Once the button bet I planned to call if the blind called and pass if he didn't. Does this sound right ? Is 3000 too much of my stack to call with this three-handed ? 3) Any other comments ?
Thanks in advance,
Andy.
Yes, it's still pass or raise at this point, almost every time.
In HE, you could occasionally trap with a hand like AA or KK, IF you the opponent in the blind is someone who can't get away from a top pair on the flop. In Omaha, there is no hand that is such a big favorite preflop that you can afford to slowplay. Even with something like AAKQ double suited, I would raise, as I do not want to lose to QT73 when the flop comes 973. It is just too easy to flop 2 pair or better in Omaha.
With respect to 3456, I would not consider this a playable hand at this point in the tournament. Early on, when there were enough chips relative to the blinds to play every street, this hand is good if you can play with a small raise preflop and have position on your opponents. When this flop hits, they probably won't suspect it since you raised preflop. Plus, you may have plenty of bluff equity when the flop comes big, since you raised preflop and have position.
Since 3456 is not really a favorite over any hand that your opponent could hold, and since there isn't room for tricking and trapping anymore, I would pass.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Advice from all you experienced tournament players please. What is the best strategy during the rebuy period, I think aggressive is good but what about a bit loose? Should I call more during the rebuys? After the rebuys is it best to then tighten up, try to steal more? Help please Goldfish
I honestly don't think it's that important how loose you play in the re-buy period. It comes down to personal preference. You might prefer to buy in more often in order to have more chips when the re-buys end, or buy in less and have fewer chips (on average).
One point is that if you are better at playing a large stack after the re-buys than a short one then maybe you should gamble more early on, but if you are better at short-stack play then there is less need to do so.
Andy.
I think you should play the same way you would if the chips represented cash (and you had a substantial bankroll). In other words, just play your most profitable game, taking into account how others are playing, and ignoring the fact that it's a tourney.
The only exceptions might be if the rebuys are cheaper than the original buyins (in terms of cost/chip), AND you must be below a certain chip count to qualify for a rebuy. In that case, taking very slightly the worst of it might be OK if losing means you get to make a (profitable) rebuy. However, this is such a slight thing that I wouldn't waste much effort on it.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If you are in what we refer to as a constant stack tournament, that is you always get the same number of chips for the same rebuy, then I agree, You want to accumulate chips and should probably take a few chances to do so. If you do however get well above the rebuy threshold, you should slow down.
On the other hand, if you are in a progressive stack tournament, that is for the same amount you get more chips the later in the rebuy period you are, and there is also a large add on allowed at the end of the rebuy period, you must realize that everyone will have approximately the same amount of chips when the rebuy period is over. Thus your job is to get there as cheaply as possible. This translates to tight play, especially early in the rebut period.
The strategy for a rebuy tournament depends on if multiple rebuys are allowed or only one. If it is only one I adjust my play so that the cards I play are more likely better than my opponents. I take advantage of loose play. Futhermore, I usually do not try to steal blinds during this time due to looser play.
If unlimited rebuys are allow, I will change my strategy. When I play a NL Hold'em tournament I like to have just as many chips on the table as the largest stack and I will take the worst of it because my goal is to be the chip leader or even with the chip leader.
For example, at the Orleans Open there was a $125 buy-in NL Hold'em tournament with unlimited rebuys. You get $600 in chips for the original buy-in and rebuys were $100 for $600 in chips. You were allowed to rebuy whenever your chips were below $600. Since, I always have to have at least what the largest stack at the table has I will plan on making a rebuy. This is what I did. On the first hand I played AK and lost my initial buy-in, so I did a rebuy. Now, I have only $600 again, so after the blinds came around I did another rebuy. Now, I have approximately $1150 which is almost as much as the largest stack. You want to have as much as the largest stack, because if you can double through the largest stack you will have a big weapon to attack with. Eventually, I got lucky the tournament director announced this is the last hand. I had a pair of jacks and called a raise from UTG and behind me a player with one of the largest stacks moves in. Well, I call and double through him when I caught a jack on the flop. Now, I have over $3000 in chips and am the largest stack at the table. After the rebuy period you can start to steal from everyone that has a short stack because they are waiting for a good hand to commit suicide with.
When you play a multi-rebuy tournament, I plan on making three or four rebuys.
Decide how much you want to pay. If you're okay with multiple rebuys, then you can take some chances and try to double or triple up.
I play in a tournament like this almost every week. My goal is to make it to the break without having to rebuy (but I will if I have to). Someone else mentioned they like to rebuy early and whenever they get under the limit. I don't like to do this. I'll not rebuy unless I get completely down to the felt.
But as important as what you do, is paying attention to your opponents. Some of them are playing VERY loose while the rebuy period is in effect. You stand a pretty good chance of doubling through against these players.
After the rebuy period is over, the real tournament starts. Some of the players who were playing very loose will change their style, so don't think that just because they were loose during the rebuy period that they will be after.
JohnnyD
I play very tight during the rebuy phase and then selectively start to bluff and steal during the no re-buy phase.To me re-buys make little mathematical sense, for this reason.Say there are 30 entrants to a 10 dollar tournament.There are 15 dollar rebuys during the first half and then a 30 dollar add-on at the half.(which everyone still in usually buys).There are 7 places in the money with payouts usually around 650-500-375-200-125-100-100.Mathematically you are 30-1 dog to win top prize of 650 and you pay (possibly) only 15 to do so.At 15 dollars to win 650, the "pot" is laying you 43 -1 odds on a 30-1 shot.This is a fine bet as long as you have the proper bankroll.But when you take the add-on, you now have 45 dollars in the game and the top prize is laying you only 14-1 on a 30-1 longshot.If you made 3 15 dollar rebuys you're paying 90 dollars and the pot is only laying you 7-1 for a 30-1 shot and you definatly do NOT have "the best of it" and you are a big dog to even win your entry money back in 7th place.Of course the 2-7 prize money has to be taken into account but my main point is that the more you rebuy and add-on the worse your "odds" become.
I agree with this logic if you believe you are an average or below average player. If, however, you believe you are better than the average person who plays in that tournament, then you want to take advantage of rebuys and give yourself a chance to win. If you're better than average, forget the math of the rebuys.
This logic is not correct.
Just because there are 30 players doesn't mean you're 30:1 to win. If I rebuy before the first hand is dealt, my chances of winning (and placing in the money) are higher than anyone who hasn't rebought. Yes, I've paid more, but I also get more. The real question is whether I've paid more than my increased expectation is worth. If the rebuys get you more chips than the original buyin (in terms of cost per chip), then you should usually (always?) rebuy.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I am interested to hear thoughts on the following topic. In a PL tournament with unlimited rebuys (say £10/£20), what would be considered as group 1/ raise and re-raise hand during the rebuy period? What about after the rebuys have finished?
During rebuys I came up with AA,KK,AKs and AKo. At this stage many people will raise or stand raises with suited connectors, two face cards, Ax and even Kx. Knowing this it seems that QQ, JJ are just too vulnerable.
However, after the rebuy period it would seem reasonable to add QQ and possibly JJ to the list as there is much less calling with trash going on.
I think there is a lot in this and would love to hear the views of those more experienced than me (eg almost everyone)
Thanks
Dave Veitch
Dave,
It really depends on your opponents and your stack size.
With lesser hands than AA,KK,AK you should consider who has raised and how likely it is that your re-raise will limit the field. If you have JJ, say, and you think that even a re-raise will be called by three opponents then it might be better to call and see the flop. If on the other hand the raiser tends to overplay Ace-medium and Ace-small and you think you can isolate him then I might re-raise with a lot less.
Your stack size is also important. When you still have your buy-in or less, you are less concerned about making a second-best hand because the downside is smaller. When you have 4/5 buy-ins or more in front of you, and so does the raiser, you must be much more careful with hands that can hit the flop and still lose such as AJ, AT, KQ and so on.
Hand rankings are great to start with but the sooner you can put these out of your mind and make decisions based on external factors the better.
Sorry this is a bit vague but hope it helps anyway.
Andy.
Andy,
Interested in your thoughts as always. I do try to base my play on the other players, what I think they are likely to do, what they will raise or call with and the like. As such it is not always necessary to have a premium hand before entering into a pot.
Mainly, I am interested in seeing what people think what the top few hands are. I know this is largely dependent on other factors. lets say its an average PL tourney table with 10 players, with players varying between semi-tight/aggressive and very loose/aggressive. What do you raise/re-raise with, what will you see a flop in a raised pot with?
What I am trying to get at is a starting point of hand examples which can aid with a more disciplined approach to my play.
BTW - still using your software. a good investment
Cheers
Dave
Dave,
It's still subject to a lot of variables but I have a baseline of AJ, 99 and above to make the first raise. In late position, short-handed or short-stacked I will drop these a bit, similarly in early position, full table or chipped up I will raise the bar.
Calling a raise is entirely different. Remember that you need a better hand to call a raise than you do to raise yourself. I don't like to call raises at all after the buy-ins end, my hand must be strong enough to re-raise. Exceptions are when the raiser is all-in or close to it, and when I have a strong enough hand but call for specific tactical reasons (mostly to give myself a chance to bluff the flop). During the re-buy stage you can play a bit looser though. I would often call with a hand that I would have raised myself if the raiser is loose. And when you have a big stack and so does the raiser (or someone else who has already called) you can call with any pair for 10% of your stack or less. I did this the other night with 88, the raiser was short-stacked but another big stack called and I called too. It was very hard to keep a straight face when the flop came 8Q8 and the big stack bet into me. This isn't worth doing so much after the buy-ins finish because it's much harder to get paid off when you hit.
Of course there are times when your standards lower dramatically if you are trying a steal, even to the extent of "any two cards".
Set yourself a "baseline" of what you think are raising hands and then move this up and down according to the situation. When first or second to act, I try to know what I need to raise before looking at my cards, then I can play smoothly and quickly. One more thing, suited Ace-big is a great hand in the rebuy stage but after the rebuys are over when most pots are heads-up or three-handed max, I don't put much stock in suited cards.
Andy.
Andy is correct, there isn't a baseline -in the middle stages of a multi buy-in tourney there is often a huge variation in stack sizes in comparison to the blinds. So if you get a premium hand in early position it may be better to call rather than raise when you need to build your stack. Later in the tourney the blinds will be substantial in relation to the average stack so it would almost never be correct to slow-play a premium hand and it may be correct to raise with some non-premium hands.
I agree with Andy's way of thinking about this. I believe thinking in terms of hand groups in PL will only limit your creativity and cause you to be an easy target for your opponents.
One thing I like to do, when I've got a bigger than average stack, is raise with small pocket pairs. I do this to build the pot in case I flop a set. A hit like this is what puts you in a position to win tournaments.
JohnnyD
With 1200 t.c. left, getting near final table, blinds going up to 300-600 soon. Button puts in 2700.00 all in. In small blind I look down to find JJ.
Is this a situation where I must commit and go all in?
Button a very solid player, but would make this move with A-K as well as high pocket pairs.
I went in. Button had KK.
If all folded to the button, there are very few situations where I would muck JJ here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
With your stack size relative to the blinds, this is highly likely to be your best opportunity to (more than) double-through and put yourself into contention. I love your hand here against all but the tightest button players.
btw, for Fossilman-
I had an almost identical situation in a small tournament. I was the sb and Melissa Hatden was the button. She moaned about what a horrible play I made when my jacks cracked her pocket Aces.
I replied, "Melissa, the only way I could muck my hand there was if I thought you were a weak player. You're not a weak player, are you?"
When your chips start dwindling down you can not wait for something else. I've done the same thing many times with failures and successes with a pair of Jacks. If you wait too long you will not have a chance to win.
Thanks for all replies. Had to go off line so just read them. I guess when the gut says you HAVE TO go all in, then it is probably the right thing to do.
Level III, Hand #1 - 50/100 Hold'em
Seat #1 (T470) Raises UTG, fold, fold, fold, Seat #5 (T780) calls, I am in Seat 6 (T720) I have AdAh and Reraise, Seat 7 (T445) Calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls. UTG Caps it. All Call.
5 people see a flop of Td Kc 9c
BB checks, UTG checks, #5 bets, I raise, #7 cold calls, BB cold calls, UTG check-reraises, all call.
There are 35 Small Bets in the pot!
Turn is 7h. Board reads Td Kc 9c 7h
BB checks, UTG bets, #5 calls, I FOLD, #7 calls all-in, BB calls.
River is a Th, for board of Td Kc 9c 7h Th
BB checks, UTG bets all-in, #7 is all-in, BB folds.
#7 wins T2,155. UTG wins a T55 side pot. Guess both hands. (BB obviously had 2 clubs)
Results later.
Questions:
1) Was I wrong to raise a coordinated flop with only an overpair? Was I wrong to continue after it is check-reraised? Should I have capped it?
2) Was I wrong to fold on turn with 19.5: 1 odds?
I felt that I was dead on the flop, but wanted to make sure by raising. When I get checkraised and everyone stays in, I am sure that one of 4 people has at least 2 pair, someone might have trips, or even QJ for a straight (yes, people will play that in a capped pot on PP), plus, the 2 high club hands are in for the duration. I take one off, hoping for the Ace of spades, or maybe a Broadway draw, if it is not a club. Basically, I'm screwed.
By the time the 7h comes out on the turn, I have committed more than half my stack to this hand and can only hope for a set of Aces, which I do not think will be good enough to win anyways. Bye bye T350!
Comments appreciated.
KJS
#5 called UTG on river, but not all-in. #7 called all-in on turn.
Therefore, UTG and #5 did a showdown for side pot.
KJS
I hate translating these PP hand histories!
#5 won the side pot; not UTG as posted in the first post.
KJS
This is a tough suck out. It seems that players in the PP tourneys (early on) are either maniacs or rocks. I tend not to play many hands until a couple of guys are knocked out. A's I would definitely play. If you win this hand you are almost guaranteed a top 3 finish, and you are definitely the favorite.
"1) Was I wrong to raise a coordinated flop with only an overpair? Was I wrong to continue after it is check-reraised? Should I have capped it?"
-What was your view of the check-reraiser? Was he playing a lot of hands before this? I know I wouldn't be in a capped pot with anything but pocket AA's, KK's or QQ's this early in the tournament I definitely wouldn't be there with K-J or Q-10, or 10-9. This however, is not the view of everyone in these tournaments. I would put the check reraiser on K's and probably fold. At this stage of the tournament losing chips is very costly.
"2) Was I wrong to fold on turn with 19.5:1 odds?"
No, in a tournament you can not always just consider pot odds.
You need to double up a couple of times to make it into the money. This is not impossible given the state of your table. You just have to get lucky.
These are my comments,
Derrick
I just spent the long weekend in Vegas and played in 6 tournaments. I thought I would do a trip report with some comments on each tourney:
Friday, 10 a.m. at the Mandalay Bay. Tourney costs $25 for T300 chips. No rebuys. Holdem. Limit becomes No-limit in the 4th round. Tourney is limited to 30 players. Tourney seemed incredibly tight at the beginning. People folding on little raises. Players seemed split between locals and vacationers. I ended up in 12th when my AA died to a runner runner flush.
Friday, noon at the Luxor. Tourney costs $25 for T250 chips. One addon for $2 for T50. Holdem. Limit becomes No-limit in the 4th round. Tourney is limited to 29 players. Tourney was a bit more exciting then the 1st. Players seemed a bit more experienced but still I didn't see any great players. They pay 7 places and of course I ended up in 8th. Everyone was all smiles as my 98o lost.
Friday, 8:30 p.m. at the Stratosphere. Tourney costs $33 for T1200. One addon for $2 for T200. No Limit Hold'em all the way. I didn't play very well. For some reason I was not in a very agressive mode and only won 2 pots and ended up in 12th out of 21.
Saturday, noon at the Orleans. Tourney costs $30 for T300. One rebuy for $20 for T200. Limit hold'em all the way. I was fortunate enough to win this one. There were 74 players and I took $750. On the final table I was down to T1600 with the blinds being 700-1500. I was in the BB with A2 and went all-in and caught a winner on the river. A few hands later I raised with 77 and was re-raised all-in with AA. I was happy when the flop contained a 7. After that I moved quickly into chip leader with some good cards and good aggressive play. We played 3 handed for an hour and finally made a deal. It was a TOC qualifying tourney!
Sunday, noon at the Orleans. Tourney costs $30 for T300. One rebuy for $20 for T200. No limit hold'em all the way. Only 50 players today. I really enjoyed how the blind structure gives you some play with your chips. Won enough hands to get me to the final table. Ended up 8th place when my all-in raise of A4s was called by QQ & TT. Took down a small profit.
Sunday, 7 p.m. at the Orleans. Tourney costs $120 for T500. One rebuy for $100 for T1000. Limit holdem all the way. 44 players. This tourney has a guarantee of $10k prize money plus a paid TOC entry. I think I used all my good cards on Saturday because I didn't get much and I made a few mistakes and ended up 25th. This tourney seemed to have the best players which makes sense based on the entry fee.
All in all a fun and profitable tournament weekend.
Ken
Blinds are 100-200. No-limit Hold'em.
I have 50 (eeeks). I am in position 8. I get 33. There are 4 limpers. I decide to fold. I am sure I should have bet since a win would give me 250 or 300 chips. My logic was that with 33 I would like to go heads up because the only way I win is with a set. I realized later that a heads up win gives me less then the big blind so I should have called. Of course a 3 hit. A few hands later I go all-in with KQ, hit a boat and win only 100 chips and lose the next hand in the big blind.
Let's say I had 350 instead of 50. Same situation. Do I raise all-in or do I fold my 33 with 4 limpers and a few players left to call.
Ken
You were either beaten by a hand or you had waited too long and let yourself get blinded. With only $50 left you needed a miracle.
Anyway, on your last question. You have 350 left which is not much when the blinds are 100-200. I would call and if someone raised behind me push the rest in. If no one raises I'll close my eyes so I can't see the flop and toss the rest of the chips in and hope I get lucky. This assumes I am not near a payoff position.
You're getting at least 6:1 on the 33, so I would call here. If you were near the money, I would fold and hope to crawl into last place money.
With 350 and 33 with 4 limpers I would fold. This is assuming that by 8th position you mean the blinds are positions 1 and 2, and you thus have 5 more free hands before the BB hits you. You have enough to raise on with 350 and drive out all but the BB (and there are a few players dumb enough to fold their BB to this raise as well). I would wait for an opportunity where no one else has come in yet, and you have an above average hand. You then raise and most often all but the BB will fold, and they will call with anything. Since it's anything, your above-average hand is the likely favorite.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Actually I was one away from money. It would have been the entry fee.
Ken
In this case, I fold the 33. You are going to win this hand pretty infrequently, and even if you win it, you are still a FAR, FAR way from the top money spots. In fact, your chances of making the money at all aren't significantly better than they were if you had just folded the 33. I would fold and hope that someone else goes broke before I have to face the blinds. It would take a hand of AA, KK, or maybe QQ to get me to play a hand, in most situations.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Played my first no limit HE tournament yesterday, a two-table satellite. The other players rebought 60-odd times. I never did thanks to six pocket aces in the first 40 minutes (!).
Anyway, my death hand: It's seven handed at the final table, 200-400 blinds, UTG goes all in for 275 and clearly appears to be desperate, next folds, I raise half my stack = 1200 with AKo (I'm third in chips with the LB having 5000 and BB having 2600). All fold to BB, who goes all in. BB I haven't played much against before but is a bit loose pre-flop for small bets, is frustrated by a recent loss, and goes all with a quick early motion then a slight hesitation as the chips are committed. Payout is 30 for 6th, 120 5th and 4th, 220 3rd, and 530 1st and 2nd.
My take was BB had a medium or small pair or AK/AQ or maybe even AJ. I called. BB had TT. It held up. Any suggestions, especially on the amount of my pre-flop bet?
Anyway, my death hand: It's seven handed at the final table, 200-400 blinds, UTG goes all in for 275 and clearly appears to be desperate, next folds, I raise half my stack = 1200 with AKo
I think you should move all-in rather than bet half your stack preflop. It is difficult for you to get away from your hand and save your last 1,200 even if you miss the flop, so saving the last 1,200 has little value. On the other hand, the big blind is getting a rather nice price to see the flop and get out if he misses.
When you are this close to the money, you should tend to avoid confrontations, because staying out of action has value in itself - it has the potential to move you up the prize list. In other words, you don't want to incurage the big blind to try stay with you.
Of course, with the hands you held, and the cards that fell, you were going to lose your stack to the tens.
--- Carl
Hi all...
Played the NL tourney at Fargo and wanted to get your opinion. I played good, except when I busted where I made a huge mistake... Oh well, I've learned...
I also got a chance to chat with our friend Greg, Fossilman and watch him in action in a one table satellite on Friday night.
I'll be posting a couple of hands to get your advice and comments...
Hand #1
We started with 1000 and around 85 players and are now down to 50, I have an above average stack at my table with 1800. Blind are 50-100.
I pick up KK UTG and decide to limp in. All fold to a player in late position (with about 1200)who makes it 300 to go. all fold to me. I decided to flat call since it was going to be heads-up. Another caller I reraise, probably all-in. My thinking was : see the flop to make sure no ace flops and then bet big to make it appear i'm trying to bluff him out. If he has a high pair, he'll call, if he has AK or AQ maybe he'll call. Well I bet 500 and, after thinking about it, he folded...
I think I should have reraised before the flop...This was my first plan...
What do you think??
The Prince
I agree, you should have popped him before the flop. But with kings, I come out with a raise UTG. It's too easy to let an Ace in cheaply. Anyone can limp with an ace and beat you on the flop. the only time I'll limp with AA or KK UTG is so I can come over the top big before the flop. If I don't feel that a late position player will raise, I'll raise my self UTG. It is crucial for me to know the players around back, are they the type to make that raise with an early position player limper? If some friends of mine or some of the top players in my tourney see me limping UTG, they muck AK, even for a limp as fast as they can. It all depends on my read on who is in late position. Are they smart enough to smell a trap? Most aren't. I like making this play.
Yes, I'd raise about 400 or 500 more preflop, enough to entice him into the pot, and not enough to make him sure he's beat. Basically, bet whatever amount you think he's most likely to call, given whatever you know about him. Then, he'll be pot stuck, and have to call you after the flop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
UTG with KK, I'll bet out most of the time. Depending on the table make up, I might limp if I think there will be a raise. The only reason I'll limp is to get more in the pot. Most who play with me know that if I limp, then reraise all in preflop, I've got either AA or KK. So I'm hoping to win the pot right there.
If I limp and nobody raises, then you just have to have the mindset to fold if an ace comes and don't give it another thought.
JohnnyD
Ok...
Blinds are 50-100, I have 2000 and the largest stack at my table. I limp in in late position with Qh-Jh, no raise, 4 players see the flop. Pot is 450.
Flop is Kd-Td-9h.
All check to me, I decided to bet 300, hoping to get check-raised. All folded...
The 2 diamonds made me bet, a rainbow flop and I check.
You think I should have still check the flop??
The Prince
I think you did fine.
Someone with 2 good diamonds will stay in with your bet. Someone with 2 weak diamonds may fold. Someone with just Ace of diamonds needing runner runner will fold. You want them to pay to beat your straight.
Ken
Here's another opinion. I'm not saying I would do this, but it has been mentioned by some. Assuming you are last to act, instead of betting the flop just check it. A person with a flush draw is getting 2/1 odds with two cards to come. If the turn isn't a diamond, push it in. The flush draw is now 4/1 and isn't even close on getting the correct drawing odds. What do people think? I personally don't like it. I would even bet more than you did. You've got a good chip count and don't want any idiot drawing out cheaply. Personally, I'd call T300 with the nut flush draw to see the turn. Without a preflp raise, I would think it is unlikely someone would check raise this flop, unless they hit a set of nines. In the tourneys I play in, even pocket T's would throw in a pre-flop raise.
It depends upon your goals at this stage of the tourney, and upon the proclivities of your opponents.
If you check here, and a blank comes, will one of them bet into? If a non-blank comes, and you're bet into, will you be able to fold (or call) correctly most of the time? These are the main questions I'd want to ask myself to decide whether or not to give the free card.
The other main question is whether or not you're likely to get called or raised by a weaker hand if you bet out now? Also, which draws will call now, but will fold if you bet the turn instead?
It always depends, darn it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If you just check, you not only have the flush draws, but also the AQ or AJ might be drawing for a bigger straight. You gotta bet here and try to win. If you get called and a blank comes on the turn, you gotta make them pay big time to see the river.
JohnnyD
This is not related to your specific question, but this is why I don't like to call at this stage of the tournament. You flopped massive but couldn't get it paid off. If you raise pre-flop then you might win the blinds straight away or get a caller and then find it _easier_ to get paid off because the pot is bigger and your opponent might think you are just following up trying to steal.
Andy.
I now have 1300 and on of the largest stack at my table. I'm in late position with J-9 of clubs. Blinds are 50-100.
One caller to me I limp in. (bad limp??)
Blinds are in, no raise. Pot is 400.
Flop comes J-7-4 with 2 spades...
LB checks, BB bets 400, half of her stack.
Other player folds.
My thinking is: she's in the BB. She could have a weaker Jack. If she has QJ or JT, I'm in trouble... If she had AJ or maybe KJ she would have raised. I put her on a weaker Jack hoping to win the pot right here. She only has about 400 left.
I raised all-in to get the SB out... (bad move ??? if he's slowplaying I'm dead)
SB folded.
She turns up 2 spades for a 4 flush...
I won the hand...
Bad call???
The Prince
Ok, I'm bored and commenting on your posts. I'm not a pro but here's my opinion... It's still early in the Tourney and I'm noticing that you are limping a lot and you are questioning your easy lay downs.
It's way too early to limp with J9s. What are you hoping to hit? Obviously a pat hand on the flop, or the next best thing would be a good draw. A good rule of thumb in no limit tourneys is to stay away from draws... I think the pros on here would agree?
"If she had AJ or maybe KJ she would have raised" I disagree. Personally, I might see the flop cheaply with these hands in the blinds and hope for someone like you to make a mistake. To your credit, you made the right move by coming over the top. But I think for the worng reasons.
I don't like limping in a tourney, especially early on. If you sensed weakness at your table on this hand, use your position and take what's in the pot or FOLD.
It seems to me, and I'd like to hear what others think as wells as your self, that you are playing too much like a ring game player. I also feel that you are playing to weak and playing too many drawing type cards, especially early on. If you are limping with J9s, are you also limping with TJs, T9s, 78s, Axs? If you are, you are playing too many hands in the early rounds. Again, if you sense weakenss at the table so you feel you can limp with these types of hands, I feel that it is better to be the aggressor and make a play and take the blinds and other limpers out before the flop. If you don't, you are just going to bleed your chips away.
I agree with what you are saying here.
I stay away from the draws.
The 2 drawing hands I posted here are the only two I limped in with.
The table was getting softer as a couple of lower stacks had just moved to my table and were trying to survive...
I had a good stack.
There were limpers before me which made a call better if I hit it I could get more out of it.
BTW: I don't question my overall play, as we say, you had to be there, I just want different views...
The Prince
I disagree with D.
I think limping in with marginal hands that can flop big is fine, as long as you have a lot more chips than the blinds, AND you are sure you are unlikely to be raised and have to throw it away preflop.
Also, limping is better early rather than late in a tourney with these sorts of hands. Basically, as it gets later, even if you're not short-stacked, many of your opponents are. So, implied odds hands go down in value, as either you or they will be all-in before you make your draw, thus eliminating your payoff after-the-fact.
As for how you played this hand, yes, you should have raised as you did. Even if the SB is trapping, once you call the first T400, the pot will be too big for you to fold when the SB reraises. So, if they are trapping, it's too late, you're trapped and have to suck out. If they're not trapping, you want to make sure they don't overcall with overcards and catch a Q, K, or A on the turn or river to beat your top pair.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree with Greg. Early in the tournament is a time where you can limp with an average hand. I love it when I'm at a passive table and they let me limp. But you have to know when to let it go and when not to get too cute with it.
JohnnyD
I agree with the consensus here. In my tournaments, during the re-buy period I limp quite a lot hoping to flop big because I'll get paid off and a raise is less likely to knock players out. Immediately the re-buys finish I'm much more into "raise or fold" mode.
Andy.
Blinds are 75-150, down to 40 players out of 85.
I have 1800, we started with 1000.
I am 3 off the BB. The player UTG raises to 600. From what I've seen and heard he's a solid player (Oldie). He won 2 events of Fargo last year including this one. He's also a good buddy of Fossilman (I'm in big trouble).
I look down and see A-J of clubs.
I folded... The only way I have a chance is if he has TT or lower. I don't think he'd raise from UTG with that. If he has AQ or AK, I'm dominated, if he has a big pair I'm left to hit my ace (3 outs).
He told me later he had AQ suited.
Good fold...
Was my thinking correct?? Was my fold correct ??? (regardless of this particular outcome)
The Prince
YES. FOLD. But you left out crucial info... How many chips does the guy have? With AJ it doesn't matter. Fold, it's still too early. But say you have AK, AQ, JJs, etc... his chip count is important... If he is short staked you might have to take him on. He raised 600, I assume he wasn't short stacked, so fold. There's no need to play speed cop on this hand.
From what I can remember, he had around 1300.
The Prince
So how did the rest of it go? What was your mistake?
Well this was FARGO...
So not too many morons here.
This is the reason I questionned myself a little. Since I was facing good players.
The players I normally play are so bad you can win with your eyes closed...
I made a classic NL-HE mistake... I got AK and raised pre-flop and got 1 caller, the largest stack at the table...
No help on the flop (9- 5-2 I think), I moved in (I know, what was I thinking ???). He called and turned over KK. Bye Bye me...
HORRIBLE HORRIBLE PLAY....
I was doing pretty good until that...
I should have folded and waited for a another hand to make a move, I had plenty of chips left...
I'll be there next year...
The Prince
What is FARGO? Also, I'm relatively new to this, so take what I say with a grain of salt. Like they say, "easier said than done."
FARGO is a gathering of poker players who read or post on RGP (the newsgroup rec.gambling.poker).
It is held at Foxwoods Casino once a year. There are similar event held in Atlantic City (ATLARGE) and Vegas (BARGE I think...)
There are tournaments... You get to discuss strategies with fellow players, etc...
Very cool...
The Prince
There is also MARGE in Biloxi first weekend in November and SARGE in Tunica.
JohnnyD
On the flop, how many chips were in the pot and how big was your stack ? If you check and then he bets, what will you do ? Depending on these factors your play might well have been correct. I wouldn't call it horrible, don't be too results-oriented.
Andy.
If I recall it correctly, the blinds were 75-150 and I raised it up to 500.
So the pot on the flop had to be around 1225.
I had about 800 left.
If he bets into me after I check on the flop, I throw it away without even thinking twice.
I think I should have waited for a better opportunity.
ThePrince00
Against almost any UTG raiser, in the vast majority of situations, you should fold AJ. Against Mark Oldenburg, fold every time. He's much too tight for you to have any reasonable chance of being ahead right now. If the money were real deep, you might call hoping to catch a flush, a straight, or to simply outplay him (bluff him) postflop. The money isn't deep enought to draw or bluff, so forget that here.
Here is a scenario where you might play AJ to an UTG raiser. When the UTG raiser is short-stacked and desperate, they might raise with any pair, any A, even hands like KQ, KJ, QJ, and maybe even worse. Even if they're a good player. This strategy can be correct if there is a reasonable chance of everybody folding to the blinds. However, if you sense that the raiser is in this situation, and is either raising from desperation or because he thinks the table is tight enough for it to be correct, then your AJ is likely the better hand. You then reraise to get it heads-up, and hope that you win (from the lead, of course).
Also Prince, it was nice seeing you again. Thanks for the moral support during the 1-table satellite. I am very pleased to have come back after that big suckout put on me. I have been rather unlucky in my last few tourneys, and didn't need for it to happen again.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
n/t
I'm sure you did the right thing by folding. But I'm a sucker for AQ and AJ suited. It's hard for me to lay them down for some reason.
JohnnyD
Fold, next hand. I made a similar fold the other week except I had AQ and the UTG raiser showed AJ. I still felt the fold was correct because this would be his _minimum_ raising hand so I still need more than AQ.
Any.
Exclusive offer for 2 + 2 posters.
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You may be wondering why I am making this offer. In the past my bankroll has allowed me to compete in only a few events of this type. Usually able to compete in just the lowest buy in tournaments. I feel that I would have done much better in tournaments if I were able to enter more events. I do not have the bankroll f to enter the number of tournament events I believe I need to enter to show a profit. So I am looking for partners. I have quite a bit of experience in small buy-in tournaments. My success rate has been mixed. I believe my record would show a positive return if I totaled up my wins vs buy-ins. I have won a number of tournaments, Omaha Hi/Lo, 7 Card stud and Holdem at the Orleans., Crystal Park, Lake Elsinore, Foxwoods, Mirage and Hollywood Park Casinos.
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Date Event Buy-in Added Money
10/29 7-Card Stud 220 2000
10/30 Limit Holdem 220 2000
11/03 7-Card Stud 550 2000
11/03 Limit Holdem 550 2000
11/08 7-Card Stud 1080 2000
Satellites 5 120 (600)
Total 3770
If you are interested please send me an e-mail: leporeva@hotmail.com
Vince.
This was a critical hand for me during a super-satellite they held at Foxwoods Friday night. You pay $100 + $20 to enter, with unlimited $100 rebuys, plus a single or double add-on for $100 or $200. There ended up being about T85,000 in play after the add-ons. The prize pool is about $17,000, and is being given away as follows: 1st-3rd - a $5100. seat in the main event 4th - 2 $500 tourney buyin chips ($1000. total) 5th - 1 $500 tourney chip 6th - $300 cash
We are down to 7 players, and I have T18,000 in chips. I am in 5th position this hand (i.e., blinds are positions 1 and 2). Blinds are T1,000/T2,000. UTG folds, and Alan Miller, past best all-around winner at Foxwoods, raises all-in for T10,000. Alan is very solid, but is capable of making aggressive moves if the timing is right. The play at the final table has been VERY tight, as it should be for a super. There is no easy money left on the table, all 7 are solid players. I am next to act. Whether I call or raise here, there is little chance of anyone calling behind me with less than KK. Even that might get thrown away. So, whether I call or raise, it is going to be heads-up with Alan 99% of the time. If I lose here, I am just about tied for the shortest stack, and will face the blinds before he does.
With what hands do you call here?
Read on for my read of Alan's hand, and further below that is the result.
I did not put Alan on AA or KK. If he had these hands, he would have likely raised to about T5,000, as he would like to get action from exactly one player. Also, it might like like a weak bluff, and get reraised preflop. Overall, I put his chances of these hands as very low, like 4%. I then split his chances of having a big A and a pair about 50:50. I thought he might make this play with any pair, as the table was so tight. He would not want to risk going through the blinds again and having to fold twice, as this would make his stack so short that he wouldn't have enough leverage to knock out callers with a raise any more. So, even 22 was a possibility. Overall, a medium pair, like 88-QQ were the most likely pairs, and AK-AT the most likely non-pair hands. So, my read is 48% 22-QQ, 48% big A, and 4% AA-KK.
Result:
I had AKo, and called. He had JJ. He won. I made a small comeback, surviving a couple of orbits, but still busted out 7th. Basically, the disparity between positions 1-3 and 4-6 was such that I was playing for a seat, not a bare money finish. I figured that if I bust out Alan here, where I felt I was either tied or ahead preflop, I not only get some money locked up, but I am getting close to a lock for a seat. They ended up playing for well over an hour after I busted out, probably more like 1.5 hours. It took them that long to knock out 3 players, even with the blinds being so big. Thus, in reality, there was no stack that was so big it was a lock to win a seat at that point. After 1.5 hours, with blinds going up every 15 minutes, even someone with 80% of the chips would have been blinded out. Of course, if anyone had that big a chip lead, people likely would have been knocked out quicker. Anyway, while the starting field wasn't terribly tough, only the better players made it to the end, despite the fastly rising blinds.
On a positive note, I played in the very first 1-table satellite that started right after I busted out, and won that. It was a $118 buyin, 10 players, NL HE, winner gets 2-$500 lammers plus $80 cash. Heads-up we were about even in chips. I got a chip lead of about 60:40, we got all the money in preflop, and his Ah8d beat my As9s after a flop of all hearts, 8 high. I mounted a comeback, made one minor suckout when my all-in KJo beat his A3o all-in preflop. Kept moving up, and eventually won with no further suckouts on my part. Twice when the chips were about 52:48 in his favor I offered a deal where we each took 1 lammer + $40 cash, and twice he declined. Poor variance decision on his part. Actually, I'm pretty sure his ego was more than big enough that he thought he was the favorite. But, since the blinds were big relative to the stacks, no one is much of a favorite (unless their opponent is so tight they're folding way too much, which isn't me). Also, he was wrong. Even with small blinds, I'm MUCH better than him. If the chips had been dead even, or I had a slight lead, I wouldn't have offered the deal. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I make the AKo call also. You're putting in T10k to win T13K and you're pretty sure you're either ahead or only slightly behind. You win this hand and you're playing for something meaningful.
JohnnyD
Forget the analysis, sit on your hands at the final table of a super-satellite. Too much can go wrong just by getting involved for a large amount preflop. Your situation is a classic super-satellite trap for aggressive or analytical players. I've seen this over and over at the WSOP supers, this fear of being blinded out drives people to get involved when they are dealt something decent. I know exactly how you felt, but it's a feeling that has to be subdued at that stage. Since the blinds will neutralize all the "strong players" at the next limit, it's much better to crapshoot at that next limit with a decent stack than to take a chance on weakening yourself where you HAVE to play a hand.
I can make the big bet with AK but can't call one with slick in this situation. Your most likley a dog if he is holding any pair. I don't see your panic here you have more than an average stack and not in blind trouble. Guess slick is to hard to dump for some but I never had that problem.
Well, I certainly wouldn't call with anything. AA,KK, AKs & AKo and my whole 18K goes in. Anything else gets folded w/o a second thought.
Assuming your 48-48-4 read is right, AND because you were gunning for a top spot, I think it's the right play. It's sounds like he'd'a played AQ the same way.
However, Earl's and Rounder's posts are strong persuaders..... "Walkin' Back To Hartford..." :)
I have only played in one tournament, and don't know much about them. However, if you analysis is correct, how could you not go all in. You dominate any non-pair hand and are only a small dog to a lower pair. It would be insane to blind away and crapshoot at the higher blinds.
You don't "dominate any smaller hand." Even a piece of cheese like 8-5o is only a 2-1 dog. Against any pair, you are just rolling the dice. Final table strategy in a NL tourney takes a much different mindset than a limit cash (or even tourney) game. It isn't necessarily about the "odds" but about the objective at that moment.
Surely the point is that the opponent is much more likely to have a big ace, which you do dominate, than two random cards ? Personally, I like Greg's decision here. I'm not sure I understand the rationale that 'there's no need to panic'. This play wasn't made out of panic, it was made out of a (peceived) advantage. I agree with Rounder that you're (almost) always better off being the bettor than the caller, but that wasn't the question.
Paul Miller
This was different from the WSOP SS's because the top three get seats here; 4-6 get cash. Greg wanted a seat. In a WSOP SS, one away from getting seat, ~15% of the chips and enough for six rounds; I put the dealer's eye out with anything other than Aces.
Under my previous analysis(48-48-4 read is correct), Greg also should go all in with QQ, MAYBE even JJ.
However, considering Greg's stack size, folding certainly wouldn't have been wrong, either.
Under these unusual circumstances, I'm not sure I agree that raise or fold is correct.
There are no weak players behind me. Nor is there anyone who is going to make a move, not with Alan already all-in and certainly not with a "weak" hand. If anyone reraises behind me, they have AA. 99% of the time. The other 1% they have KK. So, if someone raises behind me, I actually can fold correctly, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Obviously, the WSOP supers vary on the number of seats based on the number of entrants and the rebuys. The last night before the final event, I've seen away more than one table get seats; I've also seen only 4-6 get seats. (I do agree with your "eye-theorem".)
However, the relevant point here is that if either folding or raising are equally good from a math perspective, then folding clearly has to be the best play based upon the survival aspect. The chips you have are worth much more than the equivalent amount of chips that you can win. This has been discussed repeatedly, and I'm quite surprised that A-K is such a debatable hand at this stage.
But, from a math standpoint, they're not equal, and that's why I'm not sure if I made the correct decision or not.
Based upon my read and prior knowledge of the player, I felt that AA and KK were very unlikely, and that a pair or an A weaker than AK were about equally likely. As such, when I called, I was either slightly behind or well ahead. However, as you say, the survival aspect argues for a fold. But, is it a strong enough argument to overcome the highly positive chip EV I was getting from a call?
I'm still not sure. I guess maybe that means this decision was close enough that either way is OK.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I wouldn't CALL with anything. Either raise all-in or fold. :)
Hi all...
I played in the pokerspot no-limit event last night.
It was a freeroll event. Prize pool was 300$. The only problem is that PokerSpot never told us how many places were paid and how much.
You start with T320$. Blinds start at 5-10 and double every 20 min.
156 players attended. The field was week. Players chasing draws and a lot of players not taking advantage of the fact that this was no-limit and only betting or raising the minimal amount.
I managed to survive and build a better than average stack (about T1600)with basically 3 hands, a pair of jacks, an AK and pocket 7s in the BB which flopped a boat with 3 players in. I doubled about every time.
Then it was patience/survival mode... No starting hands for a long time as the blinds grew higher. My stack got up to T2600.
As players got knocked out I realized my stack was very close to being high enough to make it to the final table. Some players had T5000-T10000 but with wise tournament play I could make it...
Well I made it...
The rumor was that they paid the 7 best. Most of the players didn't know. I don't know if this number came from past tourneys they held.
I am the lowest stack at the table. No decent hands and then...only 9 players left...
I am UTG with T950, blinds are 150-300. I get A-J off. I decide its time to make a move the closest stack to mine has T3000. I have to take a stand to survive. The blinds will eat T450 of my stack and I will basically have only 1 orbit left. I have to double now... I raise all in. I sucked out to a player holding AQ when a J and an ace fell. Oh well...
A couple of hands later, I get KK in middle position. It's raised 300 to me, I reraise 500. The raiser calls. I raise all-in on the flop. I win. I now have T3500, now the second lowest at the table. Average stack is T5000. One player has T15000.
2 players get knocked out... 6 players left.
I'm in the money...I think...
If I can manage to double again, I could have a shot. I can out play them...
Then it came, TT UTG. I raise and get reraised (my whole stack) by the chip leader who has been playing bully with his T19000.
I felt like he was making a play at me. I called.
He rivered me catching a Qween with his Q-6. I was out.
I finished 6th out of 156. I'm happy. I'm just wondering if I got in the money. I send an email to pokerspot. I'm waiting for an answer...
I have a question. Is TT good enough of a hand to do what I did?? It's 6 handed here...
Say they only paid 5 places or that there was a big difference between 5th and 6th place, would you be willing to push it all in in my position???
Comments appreciated...
ThePrince00
I played in that too - finished 12th. It looked like you were gonna be blinded out soon after that; I was impressed you managed to hang around as long as you did. I've never played in a no-limit event (live or online) before, so I was pleased with my result.
One question I have - when it was down to 2 tables, about 80-85% of the chips were at one particular table. What adjustment, if any, do you make depending at which table you are sitting? I was at the table light on chips, and I felt like if I didn't try to make a move before the tables consolidated, I was going to get eaten alive as soon as I made the final table. I tried, and ended up getting elimnated when I got a little too agressive with ATo from the button.
By the way, I've had friends place in some of Pokerspot's other tourneys, and they've always paid 8 spots in the past. Not sure if it was the same last night or not.
I know...
I was at the big stack table...
My stack at that table was 7th and I would have been 2nd chip leader at the other table.
I couldn't believe it.
I had to be patient. Basically I waited for you guys to knock each other out. I watched the number of players remaining go down. A couple of players at my table played badly and got knocked out too early IMHO. They had a way better stack than me.
I was in survival mode... very tight...
ThePrince00
PokerSpot has informed me that they dropped 30$ into my account...
YYIIIIPPPPPIIIIEEEEEEEEE
ThePrince00
10-10 was good enough to move all-in with. I would not have trimmed my bets though, because your play invited the bully to try and push you around. You snapped him off by calling, but unfortunately, even leaving the door open to a reraise left him the opening to make a move at you AND then get lucky. This happens more often than most people realize, someone trying to make a play at the pot in a NL tourney then gets lucky, when their hand wasn't worth a flat call.
Good results, Prince.
Terp, I was one behind you in that tournament, busting out 13th. Had around $1,000 in chips. Posted my $300 big blind and saw 7-2o; got bummed out and torched the rest of my chips (including the $150 big blind) with an 8-6 suited. Dumb, I know, but it was getting very late (approx. 1:00 eastern time) and I had to get up at 7:00 for work.
Did either of you play in the Omaha/Hold 'Em tournament yesterday? Pokerspot seems to have those Omaha tournaments in the afternoon when I *can't* play; I'm wondering what the caliber of players/quality is like.
Mike
I played in the Omaha tourney, but had real problems with my connection. I finished somewhere in the middle of the pack. I only got to play about 5 hands in the first hour due to my connection problems, and then their server woudn't let me backin for a while.
I play primarily hold'em; I'm by no means a Omaha expert, so I really can't comment on the quality of play. I didn't think it was that great, but like I said, I really can't tell. Pokerspot really has to work on their software though. The tourneys are fun, so I play, but they are sooooo slow. The one yesterday took about 4.5 hours.
n/t
level 50-100. Limper, a raise, a reraise, I have AA in the big blind, I cap. Limper folds the other two call.
Flop was: 8TJ different suits.
I bet the flop, raise, reraise. These two players are not maniacs. At this point I have 710 left. I decided to play safe now so I can still attack later. Of course the winner had KK or else I would not be writing this.
PL Tourney. Pay top 3 spots only. 6 handed at final table. 118k chips in play. Blinds are 2.5k/2.5k. I am in second blind with 7k after posting. All fold to first blind who raises 5k. I figure that he doesn't need much to raise here, reckon I can't afford to hang about much longer (will only see 7 more hands before blinded out) and stick in my last 7k with A3o. I reckon at least a 60% chance he is not playing an Ace.
Comments appreciated
Thanks
Dave Veitch
Dave,
Sounds fine to me. There is one alternative to consider which I have picked up off this Forum (mostly from Greg). When you re-raise, your opponent is simply going to call and you will see five cards. You could consider flat-calling and then betting the flop however it comes, especially if (as I think is probably the case) you are first to act post-flop. In this case your opponent will be facing a bet of 2k with about 15k in the pot so he is unlikely to fold, but stranger things have happened.
In general flat-calling can work when there is no-one behind you and your opponent is sure to call if you re-raise pre-flop. Calling then betting the flop should allow you to win the hand more often at the expense of not winning as much when you do, which is fine in the later stages of a tournament.
Andy.
A-3 was certainly playable. I'm looking for any-Ace or a "20" hand here.
I agree with the call-bet. Sometimes it works even better to wait until the turn to bet such a small amount, because if they have absolutely nothing, they are very likely to lay it down even for another 2k.
Just an observation, not a gripe. Doing quite well in H.E. tourney. Change to Omaha in second half. Top sets get run down by crap. Etc. Etc. What a rediculous game.
I see no reason to ever play Omaha, unless you also enjoy Bingo, Keno, Lottery, etc.
Responses??
Presumably you are talking about limit Omaha, whereas my (little) experience is in Pot-Limit HE/Omaha tournaments. When you have a made hand against a draw then the outcome can be pretty much down to luck, yes. However, when you have a made hand vs. a made hand, for example set over set or top two pair against bottom two pair, then the better hand is miles ahead. Similarly if you have a straight draw + a flush draw and your opponent only has the same straight draw, you are essentially free-rolling. The way you make sure you are on the right side of these confrontations is by selecting your starting hands carefully. You don't have to be a genius to do this, but if you can do it and your opponents aren't then you have a good edge.
Getting drawn out is all part of the game. Try to remember that if you are the one getting drawn out then you are playing the better poker, and that if draw-outs never happened, there wouldn't be much of a game because no-one would call you. There is still tremendous scope for you to play skilfully and (more commonly I admit) for your opponents to make mistakes.
Andy.
this forum has become a joke. People use it to quibble with other players, by twisting their words, intending to make themselves sound intelligent. I assume they want other posters to think they are great players. Andy Ward, after half an hour of lousy posts your comment finally meant something.
Thanks. I don't think the Forum is a joke at all (especially compared to others on the net). I do think that I was learning a lot more from this Tournament Forum about 6 months to a year ago although that may be partially because I had a lot more to learn at that point (although I still have much to learn) and partly because there is an unavoidable tendency for posters who are newer to the forum to ask questions which have essentially been answered before (but please don't let that put anyone off from posting).
Andy.
Responses?
You're just steaming and griping.
Good players have an edge over the weak players in Omaha just like in any other form of poker. Drawing hands are more common in Omaha, that's all. In fact, you can flop top set and be a dog to a hand that currently has no pair. That's the game. Some people argue that Omaha has more skill in it that Holdem. Maybe, maybe not. But, if you don't like, just don't play it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
i played in that tourney last night and yes my nut straight on a rainboy board got destroyed by a boat, but that is poker. if you play alittle tight for the first few rounds you would have seen that so many people were pissing away their money because they thought with four cards their ability to make a hand was double. it was a fun and very intersting tourney unfortunately after 3 hours staring at my screen i busted out in 10th. three off the money. did i learn alot playing for free for three hours. hell yes patience, comprehension and skill will always prevail over that guy who draws out on you.
Top set in Omaha is nothing more than a drawing hand. If you remember that you won't go broke.
Bruce
I agree, especially in multi-way pot. In fact every hand is a drawing hand. Its corresponding outs are a combination of the theoritical outs for a drawing hand and the non-outs (all the cards which do not complete others hands) for a made hand.
The difficulty is to accurately find what are these real outs based on the theoritical outs, the non-outs and among them the ones that are shared by other opponents.
Depending on this assessment you have sometimes to check and call or even fold with the nuts, sometimes you have to raise. The skill is really here.
Now in limit or in PL with small stacks the penalty in taking the bad decision is not big since the odds are always there. So the short term luck factor is here and this is especially true in tournaments.
But in PL with big stacks the good player has a big edge since the penalty can be as big as one stack.
Now, even in PL, the draw outs and the fluctuations are there, much more than in hold'em. But it is really an additional skill to be able to handle the fluctuations and the losing sessions.
I was playing in a single-table satellite at the weekend, 11-handed, winner takes all. An interesting hand came up where I wondered what I would have done at one point.
Everyone has 1500 and the blinds are 25-25-50 off the button, No Limit Hold-Em. Very first hand, I am on the button with J9 off. A couple of limpers, I pass. The flop comes JT8 rainbow. A player in early position goes all-in. Another in middle position calls. Supposing I had called pre-flop, what should I do now ?
This is the first hand. I know the bettor has a reputation for playing fast and I know absolutely nothing about the caller. Any thoughts ?
Andy.
I would fold.
It appears that pretty often, even when you make the straight, you will tie, and thus only win half a stack. It's hard to put these guys on 2 hands, neither of which includes a 9. And, when you don't catch a straight, you probably lose to at least one of them, since I would expect at least one of them to be ahead of you at the moment.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I would have expected to be behind at least one of them as well. I was as surprised as you would be when the bettor turned over QT and the caller AK suited. It looked to me like a bad bet and an awful call, but if the bettor was expecting to get called by AK then it doesn't look so bad. Judging by his comments when AK backdoored a flush he wasn't expecting it though :-).
I've hardly played any No-Limit but in my small experience people are much too keen to push their whole stack in which gives you a great chance to just wait and pick them off.
Andy.
You are right about the poor players dying to "push in" but you have to have the "goods" to call them - these guys are really easy to trap but it takes patience to do it.
I think the strategy of some players in a NL one table is to go all in early and double up. If they lose, they just go to the next one.
I was at Commerce a few weeks ago and in the first hand three players went all-in before my action. I had QJ suited. My thoughts were that someone was going to have 3 times the chips as everyone else and a huge advantage. So I decided to go all-in with them. A Queen flopped and my pair of Queens ended up winning. I didn't see the other hands, but nobody had big pocket pairs.
When you have players like that (and I became one of them), then it becomes a crapshoot.
JohnnyD
Johnny,
Maybe that is why I have such a good satellite record. I love very aggressive tables maybe some real high stakes guys who have the idea to win it fast or move on.
I usually don't get serious about playing until we are 4 handed or so. Then I play my best short handed hold'em. I remember playing a $100 sat at the carnivle of poker earlier this year and I got heads up with a very big name player in 5 min. We each had 1500 in chips by busting out 4 players each.
Unfortunately he called my AK all in bet with a 78s and caught a 7 on the turn to win it all.
Oh well I was ahead when I made the bet.
JD are you still in Phoenix I seem to see you in California a lot?
Mike
Rounder (Mike)...
I'm still in Phoenix, but there're not having any good tournaments here so and since NL is my best tournament game, I've been making trips:
10/14 Bike (Big Poker Oktober) 2nd table in the money 09/30 Hollywood Park (Tom McEvoy's) 4 tables of 20+ 09/23 Hollywood Park (Natl Championship) 5th -in the money 09/16 Commerce (Heavenly Holdem) 2nd table - paid only one 09/09 Reno Hilton (Pot of Gold) 9th - in the money 09/02 Crystal Park (Labor Day Bash) 2nd table in the money
So I've been pretty busy..going to the seniors this weekend.
JohnnyD
The only time I would call is if I felt I was way outmatched in the game, and my only chance was to get a bit lucky and build up an early stack. Given this was an early hand, it is hard to imagine that I would feel this way (or I wouldn't have played in the first place).
Good luck.
I'd probably muck it.
You are probably out kicked and there is most likley a straight already out there sets and 2 pair also a high probablity.
I hope to see many of you at Foxwoods on November 18th, as I have been fortunate enough to have been entered into the NL HE main event of the World Poker Finals. We had the second NL HE Super-Satellite earlier this evening. $9600 prize pool was given out 1st - seat in the $5100 main event 2nd-5th - $1000 in lammers 6th - $500 lammer
I made a poorly timed steal attempt, ran into QQ, and was cut down to T700 in the middle stages. Blinds were 200-400, T49,000 in play, and about 20 players left. So, things looked grim. 2 hands later I'm back up to T3000. From there I never look back, and never lose another pot. A while later, it's over, as I bust out 2 guys on the final hand while holding AK. Never saw what they called with, and don't care.
Sorry if this sounds too much like a bunch of crowing on my part, but I'm very happy, and wanted to share my exuberance and good fortune with my online friends.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Way to go Greg. Hope you win it all!
I hope to get to Foxwoods again soon to play you again in some tournaments.
Ken
Congratulations!!
Win a couple of these bad boys and they'll put you on the cover of Forbes next time.
Play well!!
SammyB
Please excuse my ignorance, but what is a lammer?
Thanks and Congratulations
A lammer is a tournament buy-in chip. It is a chip with no cash value that can only be used to buy into a tournament. These are what are typically given to you when you win a satellite. You can then use them to buy into the tourney of your choice, or you can usually sell them to other players.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg Congrats! Hope you win the final -- and hope I'll be there to watch if I don't make it in myself :). Kate
Way to go Greg!
good luck greg, i hope for the best. but if you think about it you could have took that 5100 and played your 1 dollar keno ticket for almost 14 years every day. taking off for hollidays of course to be with family.
Good luck!! We'll be rooting for you. I'm envious, and would love to be there myself.
BTW, do you have a feel for how many will be in the main event?
JohnnyD
No, I have no good opinion. But, my best guess is about 100.
I would guess higher, but it appears that some of the bigger name players will be in Europe for the Poker Million tourney instead of here.
On the plus side, FW is running super-satellites every day, a total of at least 20 of them. The first one (FARGO weekend) gave out 3 seats. The one I won only gave out 1 seat. During the WPF, I would expect these supers to give out 3-4 seat each. The question is, how many repeat winners, and how many non-winners will there be who will enter without first winning a super?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Even though the "big name players" will be in Europe, I don't like the line-up so far. Allen Miller, Fossilman, and those 2 other guys that won seats during FARGO looked pretty tough.
Well done Greg ! Play your best in the big game.
Andy.
Congrats to you!!!
I'll be routing for you again...
I hope to see you at the final table on Sunday...
Good Luck
See you then...
ThePrince
ps: Except for the other NL HE events which I guess you will enter... Are you entering others tourneys???
I will not be in the first NL He event, as it is on Halloween, and I will be out with my 4-yo daughter trick-or-treating. But, I do plan (hope) on finding the time to play in at least 6 events, and hopefully 8 or more. I'm not ruling out the BAAP award yet. ;-)
Since you'll be there on the 18th, are you definitely playing the main event? Good luck, and I won't suck out on you if you don't suck out on me, OK?
The real question is Ray Zee? Will he be here, or will he be in Montana? His presence will either drive away the fish, or lure them in greater numbers, but I'm not sure which.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
i could but i dont think so as im going to go to california i think. im trying to make a friends wedding near there if i can. i bet you will be scary on halloween.
Greg...
I'll will be there to watch the action only, and play in ring games.
My bankroll does not allow me to enter the big envent. One of the smaller ones maybe but most are during the week and me from Canada...
Plus the $%"&*&?% exchange rate makes it that it costs us canadians 1.5 times the entry fee.
I have got to move to the US... :-)
See you...
ThePrince
Greg,
I hope you win. Good luck.
Greg,
A few questions,
How many players are in the super-satelite? Do they have re-buys? How many chips do you start with? How long are the rounds?
Ken
nt
There have been 2 supers so far, and they had about 40 and about 75 players in them. I expect to see about 50 tomorrow, and anywhere from 50-120 throughout the WPF.
You start with T500 for $100 + 20, and can rebuy T500 for $100 anytime you have T500 or less. Thus, you can rebuy before the first hand is dealt. At the end of the first 3 levels, you can do a single or double add-on no matter what your chip count, at the same price as the rebuy.
Blinds are 5-10, 10-20, and 15-30 during the rebuy period, and last 20 minutes. Blinds are 25-50, 50-100, etc., frequently doubling, after the rebuys/addons are over, and last 15 minutes. The entire thing will last about 3.5-4.5 hours, depending upon size of field.
They will also be running 1-table satellites near the end and after the super this Friday, as well as full-time starting on Saturday. In fact, if you can get 8 or 10 people together, they will probably offer you a 1-table satellite starting Friday afternoon.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
For all of your kind thoughts and wishes of good luck. I hope to do myself proud on 11/18-19. However, you can take a shot at me before then. I plan on being there this Friday, 10/27, at 6 PM, for the next super-satellite. I will also be playing in 5-8 events prior to the main event, so keep your eyes open for me if you're at Foxwoods.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Here are 2 tournments hands that I recently played and although the outcome was favorable both times, I am not sure if I made the the correct play. The tournment was no limit holdem and the rebuy period was over. 70 players, pays top 9 places with a standard payout (1st is $2900).
Hand 1: Blinds are at $50/100 and I pick up AA UTG and have a stack of about $2000. I limp in because I have a very tight image and doubt if anyone will play with me if I raise. The button ($3000), the SB ($1000), and the BB (huge stack) all call. Flop comes TT7r. SB bets $200. BB folds and I raise to $1000. All fold. I raised because the SB was aggressive and I believed that he was just making a stab at picking up the pot. However given that I had the button still to act, should I have just called or maybe raised a lesser amount?
Hand 2: Different table, my image is not quite so tight. Blinds are at $100/200. I have about $3200 and in middle position pick up 99. I only limp in because the button looks like he is going to jump in and I do not want to play 99 for reraise at this point in the tournment (4 tables left). However he folds, but the SB ($2500) and BB ($1000) both play. Both players seemed to be fairly solid but somewhat conservative in their play. Flop comes 752 with 2 spades. SB bets $400 and BB calls. I reraise all in. Both fold. Should I have folded given that they both showed strength and my relatively good chip position? I was pretty sure that the BB only had a small pair or a draw since he only called. I was less sure of the SB. Although I doubted if he would have 2 pair based on the flop, t trips were a definite possiblity.as he probably would have just called with a small pair. I also believed that he might well be trying to pick up the pot with a flop like 752.
Thanks calvin
Hand 1: I think you played this pretty well. With $600 in the pot, a raise of about $600-to-all-in would've been fine. Your play with the limp preflop was with a plan to reraise all-in, not to get in jeopardy with a paired board, so you did the best you could given the circumstances.
Hand 2: Generally the players are playing big cards at this stage, although that wasn't quite so certain with the blinds. Good reads though -- you made the right move with best hand.
hand 1: What are you going to do if the button or the SB reraise? If you're going to fold, then you raised too much, as you've just committed over half your stack. If you're going to call anyway, then I would raise less or just call the original bet. You're in a classic situation with this raise that all worse hands will fold, and only hands that beat you can call. And, there is no equity in getting worse hands to fold here, as it is unlikely that hand that is chasing you has more than 2 outs. My inclination would have been to call and see what happens. If you're ahead, you'll motivate the SB to bet again, and you'll win more. If you're behind, maybe you'll be able to figure that out and get away without losing anymore (though I don't recommend it, given that the SB can't break you anyway).
hand 2: Fine, just fine (a la Cartman). Here, hands that are chasing can easily have 6 outs, and even if they miss their overcards, if any overcard comes and you're faced with a bet or raise, it will be hard to make the correct play. Winning this pot now works for me. If you're wrong, and they flopped 2 pair or a set, them's the breaks.
Also, here's something to consider. You thought the button was going to raise. If you're pretty confident in that read, then you should just fold. If you're not highly confident, what about a minimum raise, to just T400? If the button has a big hand, he'll likely reraise, you'll know you're drawing to 2 outs, and you can fold now, only losing T400. If he just calls, you can put him on AK or a middling to small pair with greater certainty. If he folds, you might win the blinds (which is good for 99, IMO), or at least get it heads-up with the BB, and have greater control over more flops.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
We are at level three of a nolimit tournament. We all purchased T500 for $120. There was also an optional rebuy available T800 for $100. I have made my optional rebuy and have T700 remaining. The blinds are T25 and T50. Two early position players have limped. I limp with 77's. The player to my left limps also. The button raises to T300. The blinds fold as do the early position limpers. There is T575 in the pot. I do not feel calling is an option for me. I must raise myself allin or fold. I elected to raise myself allin. The other limper folds and the raiser calls with AJs. I am eliminated early when a J comes on the flop. When the hand began it was my goal to see the flop cheaply. The size of my stack dictated a different strategy when the action returned to me. I feel I played this hand correctly. What do you think?
You are either drawing slim against a bigger pair or are flipping a coin against two overcards. You should have folded when it got back to you. Generally, you want to play this hand for 5-10% of your stack preflop.
You are getting 3:1 on your money when it is basically an even money proposition.
Bruce
Uhhhhh ... if he KNEW it was even-money instead of greater than 4-1 against.
I don't know why people keep applying these kinds of odds to NL tournaments. It just doesn't apply.
The only reason to raise here is in the hopes you won't get a call. If you're pretty sure your opponent is going to call, you should fold.
In a tournament, it doesn't matter if you're getting 2-1 or 4-1 on your money. You can't think of it like you do in a live limit game where you are thinking "over the long run".
JohnnyD
I agree with JohnnyD here...
Odds don't matter...
It's still early in the tourney, you have plenty of chips left if you fold to the raise. As JD has stated, if you reraise all-in you are hoping to win it here.
It's a flip of a coin, Do you want to be eliminated on a flip of a coin at this stage of the tournament???
I would not.
Later or very short stacked, maybe...
But not here, not right now...
Fold , survive and wait for a better opportunity.
IMHO
ThePrince
Not as much as in a ring game but they still do. This has been covered before and I don't intend to open it all up again. If you're not sure, have a good think about it for yourself. Just because a couple of regular posters are adamant they don't matter, doesn't mean it's so.
Andy.
It gives one an excuse for a bad decision on the way home "I had the odds to make the call"
It's like the guy who just busted out saying "they were suited".
Mike,
You're going to extremes again. You know pot odds matter, they're just not the only thing that matters.
Here's a hand for you. Let me know your play.
You have AhKh 2 off the button in a NL HE tourney. The blinds are T300-600. There are 80 players left in the event, average stack is T5,000, and the final 2 tables get paid. You raise to T1800, and have T2000 left in your stack after the raise. Unfortunately, instead of winning the blinds, you get called by the 2 players behind you, plus both blinds. So, there is T9,000 in the pot. The flop is 7h8h9d. SB goes all-in for T5,000, BB calls. You look behind you, and it appears that both of the other players might call also. What do you do? Also, please explain why you do it.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Your question was to Mike, but let me give you my thoughts.
First, I'm not sure your example is realistic. You still have 80 left with blinds 300-600 and an average stack of 5000. If the blinds are that high, it seems you would have less players or the average size would be greater than 5000.
Second, I would not have made it 1800. With only 2000 left, you're committed to the pot. I would have raised all in.
Third, but since you did raise 1800 and got reraised, I would call. Like I said before, you're committed to the pot because you've already put almost half your stack in. And if you lose, you're low stacked and if you win, you're probably chip leader and have a good chnce of winning the tournament.
JohnnyD
Maybe it's not realistic. I didn't want to spend lots of time double-checking every angle. All I wanted to do was to create a scenario where your play up to that point was reasonable, yet, when faced with a raise, you have more than sufficient odds for the call. AND, you know you have to catch one of your outs to win, i.e., there is basically no chance that you're in the lead.
It is my firm conviction that if you're getting much more from the pot than the odds against making your hand, and you're not yet that close to being in the money, that you have to make the call. In other words, pot odds DO matter. They are not everything, but they are important.
If I'm facing a 4:1 call, and the pot is giving me 4.1:1 when I go all-in, I make the call every time in a ring game. In a tourney, I probably pass every time. If I'm anywhere near the money, I definitely pass. However, if the pot is giving me 5:1 or better on that call, I make it, even in a tourney, unless I'm very near the money. Early or middle stages, I do not pass up +EV chip situations. I have to far to go to get there by just folding. I have to win some pots.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree with your points re AhKh in that situation. The short stack you'd be left with if you folded seems especially important, since you'd face three unpleasant branches on your decision tree:
-hope for a legitimate move-in hand in the
four before you get the blinds
-move in without a hand in the next four and
hope you either don't get called or that
you get lucky
-take the blinds knowing that your stack
will then be so small that you will almost
certainly be called when you do move in
(obviously within 10 or so hands)
I'm sure you are implicitly taking all this into account, but I spell it out in the context of odds being relevant. I think that if one made some plausible assumptions and did probability-weighted calculations using these scenarios, then the call with AhKh that you described would look very, very attractive by comparison.
OK here's how I see it. (Of course I've never played a NL HE Tournament ;) It is going to cost you T2000 to possibly win ~T30000. This is great!
Problem is if you miss you're out.
If you fold, you have to deal with whomever wins that pot. You have less than two orbits to win a pot if you are going to survive, which will be hard to do against whomever wins this pot.
The SB who raised you probably has a high pair, or a made straight, or even JhTh (praying for the 9h to fall).
So I think you have to call considering your odds for JUST making the nut flush with 2 cards to come. You also may draw 2 more Aces which may be worth something.
In NL HE do you have side pots? Since you are all-in with less chips. Do you have to split the pot with the second-best hand? This may come into play when considering your odds.
Andy...
I agree that odds do matter in tournaments... No doubt...
I think that HERE, only looking at the odds is no good.
You have got to look at the hole picture and see that if you get called, you are basically 50% likely to bust out, that is if you are not already a big dog to a higher pair.
This is too early and his stack is high enough that a fold is a better play, IMHO.
ThePrince
ps: Andy, would you call here???
No, I pass.
Andy.
Before making your play, I would have to feel both players would fold better than half the time. That would not be the case given the situation you have described. Your "all-in" reraise is simply not big enough to make the raiser back off especially since you cannot threaten him with further betting. Also remember since you limped after two callers, he can be relatively sure that you do not dominate him. As one poster pointed out, the best you can hope for is 50/50, on the other hand the worst he can expect is to be 50/50. In your case, the pot odds cannot overcome the chance you will be a huge dog. Since you are not under blind pressure, fold. There will be better opportunities later.
I am certain that I am going to be called by the original raiser. I am going to win T1625 or be busted. I am reasonable certain that my raise allin will eliminate the last remaining limper. Once I have determined that this hand will probably be contested by two players only I made my decision to raise allin. I have made a read on the raiser to have two overcards. With the exception of AA or KK I feel there is little chance of my opponent having an overpair to my 77's. Had I a slightly bigger stack I probably would have folded. I felt the size of the raise clearly defined the hands. I felt my stack size dictated my play. If things were slightly different another play would be optimum. It is clear that I was not forced to gamble but chose to do so.
Chico - My answer is based on the blind amounts given in your post. I felt your stack size was sufficent to wait for a better opportunity and it was still a little early to gamble on a 50/50 proposition. I assume you must know your opponent very well to eliminate overpairs because players who raise with AJ in that situation will usually make the same raise with the much stronger TT-QQ and quite a few might even shade it to 88 given than no one has shown any strength. .
Here's I hand that got me thinking about some of the perceived wisdom out there. First, here's the wisdom:
Just before the final table, i.e 6-5 handed, is a good time to make moves and play more aggressively.
Is this view generally accepted? Does it apply to small buy-in tournements that will have faster moving ante structures? (My view is yes on these, probably because i'm an aggressive player anyway :-)
The hand in question:
5 or 6 handed, 28000 in chips, two blinds of 800 (dealer & dealer left) - i'm one of the tournament leaders (11-12 handed) - all the prize money is from 1st-3rd, a little bit for 4th and basically a couple of buy-ins for everyone else at the final table. We're one or two away from the final table.
Either UTG 5 handed, or 2nd to speak after a passer 6 handed, I raise to 3200 at a tight table with A6o (Is this too aggressive?)
A player behind me, quite poor, who I've been "slapping around" a fair bit re-raises all-in, an extra 4100. Everyone passes back to me.
My thoughts are that 99% i'm behind (there's a slight chance that he's got pissed off with my bullying and gone all in with two pictures). However the pot is laying me just under 3:1 on this final call. Unless he's got aces the pot odds are right.
On this basis I call, he shows 99 and I hit nothing.
All thoughts welcome
Thanks
Dave D
Yes, the perceived wisdom is correct. However, it is not applicable to all situations.
OFTEN, it is a good idea to loosen up and steal a lot when you're down to two short-handed tables. However, the reason for doing this is not because there are 2 short-handed tables, per se. The reason is that because you are now just 1 or 2 spots away from the money, a lot of players tighten up way too much, especially for a short-handed situation, as they don't wish to risk going broke just before making the money. If you know that you are in this situation, then you can loosen up and steal blinds/antes with relative impunity.
However, that doesn't mean they're going to be folding their best hands. Or, even that they will fold mediocre hands. Some players don't tighten up at this stage. You have to know who they are, and play accordingly. If the potential loose callers have already folded, you've got a green light to try and steal. If they're behind you or in the blinds, then maybe you can't steal, but only raise for value.
The best thing to do is to look at each situation independently, figure out how the opponents are likely to respond, and play your hand accordingly. In some cases, you can steal with 72o and it's a good play. Other times, you need QQ or better.
Also, why go all the way up to 3200 for the hand you describe? If they've got weak hands, they'll probably fold for a raise to only 2000 or so, and then, if they do find a monster hand, and reraise you, you have room to make a good laydown.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Good point. It was a pot limit game and for some reason most raises were the pot. The less than pot seems a good idea - but is 1200 more enough? Maybe raise to 2400ish?
Also, was the THINKING right for the eventual call? My view was this was a pure maths thing however the "conserve chips" thought did cross my mind.
The rest of your post was a good point well made. I used to play (and win) lots of low level tournements using these tactics, but now that I rarely play at all I find myself (a) not being as "tuned" into the game (b) unsure of previous winning ways
thanks
Dave D
Just a couple of things I've noticed when you're down to one out of the money. If a player is looking at the other table trying to see if somebody's all in or short stacked or about to get blinded out....you can probably steal against them without worring about a call. They are just trying to make the money.
Some players, however, will be saying, or maybe you've heard them say before, "I want to win the tournament, not just make the money". Then don't try the steal against them.
JohnnyD
Indeed, A6o is a shitty hand. I put myself out and in fourth place with that same hand in an $8,600 for first place tourney. Funny thing was, my opponent had AKo and thought and thought and thought before calling me.
Indeed, A6o is a shitty hand. I put myself out and in fourth place with that same hand in an $8,600 for first place tourney. Funny thing was, my opponent had AKo and thought and thought and thought before calling me.
I've never heard that wisdom you cited. Why should it be any better to steal in this phase of the tourney than in some other? I notice players really drop quickly when it's down to two tables so maybe the theory is generally believed. I'm more inclined to think it is nerves.
Its one of the few things that make sense that come out of Cloutier's book :-) Basically people are trying to creep into the money. I think Greg's post spells it out best - its good to run over the table, but use some thought about it, i.e. position, kind of players behind me, are players ready to "make a stand" over excessive bullying. I think the mistake I made wasnt in the A6o but with the fact it was under the gun and I had raised "a lot" of hands prior to this. As I said in my original post, I dont play a lot anymore and one of the things Ive noticed is that the "feel" for the game that is so important in pot and no limit does atrophy.
good luck
dave d
Spirit Mountain tourney here in Oregon last night. Prize pool is about $25,000.
A big name player (Ken Buncher?) was a little low on chips about half way through the tourney. He had just lost a big pot to a fellow on his left. Now they are in the blinds and its heads up. Ken is SB. Blinds are at 150 300.
BB raises Ken to 600. (I would estimate Ken had about 2200 left after this call) BB has many more chips.
Now the flop is 9xx, all clubs. Ken checks. The BB player makes a big all-in (for Ken) bet.
Now Ken takes a very long time to mull it over. He talks to himself about what this guy might have. Finally after about two minutes, Ken calls all-in. The BB was bluffing with AQ no clubs. Ken has Q9 also no clubs. So Ken has top pair. The BB needs to hit his Ace to win and he does not.
We spectators were amazed that the BB did not at least have a big club as an out. I don't think I could have called in Ken's place because I'd figure the BB had a hand that he did not want to see get beat by a fourth club on board. But it was a complete bluff with only overcards as outs.
I think I'll check out Ken's book on Tournament play.
His book sucks. He hardly discusses play of hands at all, certainly nothing as involved as this hand.
A shame, because he's obviously a great player.
His name is Ken BUNTJER and the book is called `The Secret to Winning Big in Tournament Poker` and it was highly recommended by Daniel NEGREANU in an interview in Poker Digest.
I have never played in a tourney so I was wondering if I could get some help. It seems that the open raise should accomplish the goal you want to achieve. For example, if you have A-A you want action from one person, so you raise an amount that will likely make that happen. How many times the blinds is this usually? I remember one of Greg's post where he excluded Aces because someone raised more than he logically raise if he had aces. Knowing this, why wouldn't a player make an unusually large bet, making it look like A-K that doesn't want action to deceive a better player. I vaguely remember a hand where someone tried this and David Chui saw through it and layed down pocket kings. Can someone clarify some of these issues?
There is no clarity. It depends upon the opponent. I wouldn't have made the same read against every opponent, but against that particular guy at that particular time, that was my read. Even so, I knew I might be wrong.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I haven't read a lot on tourney play and don't play many, but started playing in a few Paradise tourneys. So this might be a basic theoretical question but I'll ask it anyway since I want to understand the differences between tourney strategy and regular strategy better.
You have a decent size stack. Against a small stack (SS) on the river. SS has enough chips to call a bet (he would not be all in if he called).
Is it more correct to bet for value on the river in a tourney situation than in ring play because as SS's chips dwindle each one is worth more. Since it is a zero sum game, by taking away a few more chips when your hand is best you are getting greater value than the worth of the chips themselves while if he calls and you lose, you don't lose as much value.
This applies to those situations on the end where you think, "he'll only call if I'm beat." Does the extra value make a bet that might be a mistake in a ring game correct in this tourney situation?
Thank you for all replies,
Paul Talbot
Generally, yes. In these PP tournaments where reaching the last 3 is particularly important, even more so. When an opponent is particularly short-stacked, you should always look to put him all-in at some point during the hand. If you have absolutely nothing, the best time to do this is on the river, otherwise it is good to put him in when a scare card or flop arrives to pressure him to fold, which you like as well.
Andy.
While agreeing that it's often best to put your opponents all-in, I'll have to disagree with Andy here. In a tourney, the chips you can win are worth less than than those you possess. Unlike a cash game, survival has its own value in a tourney. For these reasons, value-betting in itself is not as important in a tourney -- particularly on the river. Thus, a "value bet" that might be a mistake in a ring game is MUCH worse in a tourney.
Took a shot at a bigger tournament last night, £150 NL Hold-Em, rebuys 75 mins, 100+ runners. Bigger than I'm used to but I've been doing well lately and my bankroll can handle it. However I was the first one out the door. Here's what happened.
Stack 1500, blinds 10-10-25, I have AK on the button. One limper, I raise 100. Second blind comes over the top with all his chips. I have never seen this guy before. I figure there is enough chance that he thinks I could be on a steal for him to have less than AK, offsetting the possibility of AA or KK. I call. He has QQ which stands up.
I rebuy. Next round, now 25-25-50, in the first blind I have KK. Couple of limpers, I raise 300. Player immediately on my left, a pretty loose player, goes all-in for about 700. The same guy who had QQ before goes over the top for all his chips. Well, I've seen him re-raise with QQ already and even though this is a re-re-raise he could be trying to isolate the all-in player. I must admit that is hindsight because at the time I was just not prepared to let the Kings go. I call, all-in guy has JJ and the raiser AA.
I'm disappointed that I didn't think my plays through properly at the time but in hindsight I think the first call is very doubtful and the second is OK. Any thoughts ?
Andy.
One can very seldom put a player on a specific hand such as AA. His play of the hand is indicating AA however. The main criteria for determining this is "How well does this gentleman play?" If he does not play well there is a variety of hands he may have including AK. Very few of us can fold KK's. I have stated before in this forum that I do not make great laydowns because I wasn't correct a high enough percentage of the time. I would overestimate my opponents ability. I would give him or her to much credit.
Calling for all your chips with AK early in a tournament seems very questionable. You're most likely even money (ie, he has a pair of Qs or smaller). I agree with what you say that the small chance he has AA or KK roughly offsets the small chance he moved in here with AQ or worse. In summary, it's about an even money call, and you don't want that early on with a decent stack.
Re the second hand--In his NLH book, TJ Cloutier makes the point that if there is a third preflop raise, you should assume the third raiser has AA and be prepared to lay down even KK. I've never been able to do it, but it's an interesting point in the context of your experience.
Well, if you use TJ's theorem that K-K isn't a big enough hand to go broke in the first round of the WSOP, then it's clear that A-K is pretty cheesy to be playing for all your chips in the first round of any tourney. Bad call.
Andy,
After reading the responses so far, I pretty much disagree with everyone.
First, you made the correct call with the AK. After you had raised and the player had raised all-in you were getting good enough odds. To be specific you were getting 1.12-to-1 to call on a hand that had odds to improve of 1.05-to-1. So, it's basically a 50/50 shot. I would do what you did without hesitation in order to get a chip lead. But, remember you will lose half the time doing this, but if you don't take risks how in the hell can you expect to win?
The second hand is a judgement call. If the action is slow I will agree with the other poster that there was a possibility that you could muck the hand. When I'm talking about slow action, I mean the slow action like that which happens at the $10,000 WSOP final event. When I'm talking about fast action, the extreme would be a satellite. This is where you must judge your opponents actions correctly.
I have essentially no NL hold'em tourny experience, so I entered a $50 satellite a couple weeks back. I have played in a couple (very small) NL tourny's, and I know that my problem is when and how much I should raise. At this particular satellite, we all started with T300. I started out on the button, and folded all hands until I was UTG. I look down and see pocket jacks. The blinds are 5-15. It is still very early, so I don't have much of a read on any opponents. I decide to raise, making it T150 to go.
My thinking is that if anybody reraises, they must have an overpair. If they reraise, I will most likely muck (there was one person at the table I would have called, he had played every single hand so far, and overvalued hands like QJ, KT, etc... This man was on the button now.).
Seat 5 (middle position) reraises, making it T300 to go. He has won a hand, so he is not all in, though he only has about T450. I have played one other tourny with this guy, and I'm 95% certain that he has an over pair.
I'm going to muck, but the button (loose, and also the current chip leader), rereraises all in. There is now T900 in the side pot that I can win (if I call). Knowing that there is an overpair out there, I am a 4.5 to 1 underdog (I think). I don't know how much this changes if there are 2 overpairs out there, but I could see the button making this move with AK, or darn near any pocket pair (from the tiny bit I've seen of him). Since I've getting good odds here, and I know that if I win I will have a huge lead (there are only 3000 chips on the table), I decide to call.
The first reraiser had pocket aces, the button had pocket tens. The aces held up.
My question is how many mistakes did I make? Should I have raised less (to make it easier to get away from). Should I have mucked? Limped? Folded to the raises?
Like I said, I have very minimal NL experience, so any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks,
Worm
First rule of no limit is don't lean on the blinds so heavily by overbetting the pot. If you bet 150 into a 20 pot, how can that possibly be correct?
First, your raise was too big. You probably should've made it something like $75 to go. By raising to $150, you are now pot-committed for the rest of your stack. As you found out, you had to call the reraise. Even if the button hadn't come along, you were getting a price of 470 to 150, so at better than 3-1, you would've had a very difficult choice. Now that you are getting a price of $770 to $150, you will have to go all-in, since at 5-1, you even have the price to chase an overpair and can become the chip leader.
I like to raise about 3x the big blind, or about 45 in your case. Anything else close to that is fine also. If you raise more, you are risking more than you should, IMO, given what you stand to win. If you raise less, you will get called by the blinds (and others) quite often (which implies that you should do this when you want callers).
Basically, 3x is enough to steal, yet not so much that you'll only get action from hands that are stronger than yours. Plus, if you raise by about the same amount every time you're the first raiser, then no one can use the size of your raise to put you on a hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Early in ANY tournament AA is the only hand worth going bust with pre flop. The standard raise is 3x bb in most cases - and if you stick to that you can't go to far off base. I do like to mix it up some for deceptive purposes but until you get a lot more experience stick to the formulia - be consistant in your raises so as not to give your hand away.
To answer your question a medium pair and JJ is a medium pair - is not worth busting out with. Out of position I may make a small raise and fold to an bigger one - actually any hand containing a J is a trap hand - you are almost certain to have over cards flop and then where are you.
Start treating JJ more like 88 than QQ and you will be better off - "in the long run"
:-)
Thanks all for the responses...just what I was looking for. It sounds like 3x the big blind shoulda been my bet. Let's say that I had done that, that I had made it 60 to go. If the middle position raiser re-raises to T300 (I know him to be a solid player), and the button calls, do I still have a clear fold? My guess is yes, but like I said, I'm new to NL. Thanks again,
Worm
Here's the thing - you have JJ and are probably looking at 2 outs - any AKQ on board most likley beats you and you are most likley a big underdog to 2 players.
Even heads up at this stage of the game you are just a slight fav to AK AQ - if you are willing to risk elimination in these circumstances go ahead and gamble otherwise play if safe.
I have problems with hands containing J's they are real trouble.
Let's say that you are in the money or close to the money in a tourney with normal percentage payout. You post the big blind and the action is folded to the small blind. Here's a crux: You don't get to see your hand before acting and neither does your opponent. The small blind now moves all-in for a large amount. A quick analysis tells you that calling gives you a lower expected profit in the tourney than folding. This is because calling and doubling your stack does not double you expected profit in the tourney. So you should fold, right?
Yes, in this hypothetical world where you play without getting to look at your cards, and where the raise (or your stack, whichever is smaller) is much bigger than the blinds, then folding is best.
So, what's your point?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If I could make a deal with the small blind to always check it down when the two of you get heads-up, we would benifit at the expense of the other players. One problem with this is that it would be cheating.
But the thing is, I don't want the small blind to take advantage of my wishing to stay alive; I want him to "cooperate". And another thing is, a call is worse for my opponent than it is for me.
My point is: If my opponent know I will call, he can't raise. So I use the strategy of calling because then he can't use the strategy of raising. Or in practice, I call because then he won't raise me the next time. In a sense, I'm punishing him for not cooperating with me. Or?
--- Chris
Yes, but, you do get to look at your cards.
So, if he raises blind, you can call with those portion of your hands that are big enough favorites to make the call proper. Since he's unlikely to raise blind, when he does raise you just need to play poker against him, try to figure out the range of hands he's raising with, and make the best play.
Of course, if your point is that getting a reputation might improve your prospects, you're right. Regular tourney players who are on the "circuit" do get a reputation. And, sometimes, this rep helps them.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This isn't really about whether you get to see your hand or not. That was just to isolate the issue. It gets more complicated when we take bring into the picture, but the principle remains the same if we're playing with "normal rules", and we're sitting in the big blind looking at the possiblity of a marginal or slightly unprofitable call.
The thing is, when I thought about it, I first came to the conclusion that the person who was first to act had a theoretical advantage in that the opponent has to fold when he loses EV by calling. But hinking some more, I concluded that there was a counter strategy.
And yes, the practical side of it is that you want an image of calling/raising station - a player who is willing to sacrifice EV to punish players who pick on you. Against strong opponents though, there is little difference between your image and your actual playing style.
In fact you could turn it around, and start calling too much even considering "my point" to prevent opponents from stealing from you. The reasoning from the raiser should then be the same, that is, not to lower his raising standards even tough the opponents calling standards make some of his raises unprofitable.
--- Chris
I am at the final table of a pot limit omaha comp.
I have 7000 chips two others have about the same, while the two chip leaders have about 20000.
There are 2 blinds of 1000. I am taking the first of my two blinds when I find KKJJ double suited. yum yum.
One of the low stacks brings in it for a raise. making it 4000 to play. He is a very agressive player capable of raising with virtually any 4 cards.
Now, the problem occurs. The other short stack imediately reraises 4000 all in. He is a super tight player. I am 99% sure he has the aces.
Should I call all in or pass?
Any comments will be appreciated..... I will tell you my action and what happened later.
I like your hand - so many possibilities.
Maybe it is time to gamble. Besides at final table with blinds going up even tight players go all in with less than AA - I think you have to give it a go.
Hope you won it.
If you're really 99% sure, then you pass. However, I've never in my life been 99% sure of anyone's hand at a poker table, at least not on the basis of 1 raise. So, even if I knew this guy, I'd probably go all-in also.
How close to the money are you? The real problem with this hand is that even if you're a money favorite, i.e., calling would be the correct play in a cash game, you are certainly going to lose more than half the time here. The original raiser, even if he was stealing, is going to have to call for the pot odds since you're both all-in. Even if he's garbage, between his garbage and the other guy's highly possible AA, you're not winning more than 50%, guaranteed.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I was in this tournment few month ago . We pay 200$ to be in . We receive 400 unities . We are 17 in the tournment . 2 tables but when there were 5 outs ; everybody go on the same table . The game grow every 20minutes . 10-20 , 15-30 , 25-50 , 50-100 . During those 4 stages , if you have less than 100 unities , you can rebuy 300unities for 100$ . After the 50-100 , it's the 20 minutes break , anybody could rebuy 500unities for 100$ or 1000unities for 200$ . it's restart at 100-200 and double every 20 minutes . The guy who hold the game keep 40$ on the buy-in and nothing on the rebuy .1st receive 50% of the money ; 2nd 25% , 3rd 15% , 4th 5% and 5th 5% . so 1st3150$ 2nd1575$ 3rd945$ 4th and 5th 345% I was 3rd when there was 7 peoples left , but i loose a lots when I loose a pot with KK which has been cap preflop . I finish 6th , so , no money for me . About that , I have 2 questions : #1 , on the 17 people in the tournment , 15 takes the 1000 rebuy . Under which condition should I don't take that rebuy ? #2 , 40 on the initial buy-in ; is that to big considering that there are 7 fishs and 3 very good players in . Any comment would be appreciate , thank you I would appreciate your comments ?
Under these rebuy rules I think it is almost always prudent to make the add on - you are getting 1000 chips for the same price you paid for the initial $400 for. I need at least T$2000 in chips at the break before I consider not adding on in this tournament.
I take the full addon no matter what my chip count is. Well, if I already had half the final chip count, or some such other ridiculously high amount, then I might skip the addon. It would really have to be at least 25% of all the chips before it would even cross my mind to not addon.
And no, I do not think that this rake is too high. It is slightly higher than you'll usually find in a public poker tourney in the U.S. IME, but with half the field being fish, a good player stands to average at least $200 per play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Ferguson's call of TJ looked even worse on video than reading about it. You could tell that he had totally given up and just wanted to either get lucky with a three-outer and win it right there, or else get it over with.
FWIW I thought the Discovery Channel did a good job, esp. the graphics and running stats. Poker purists obviously want more 'action', but people unfamiliar with poker will enjoy the bios/interviews. At least McManus, Habib and Kaufman are far better representatives than the scumbag characters in "Rounders".
I don't remember what McManus made a comment on TJ book,did he said it was the best book?
It is for PL/NL tournament players who need to understand the NEXT level.
TJ's trap with the trip K's was worth watching an other wise non eventful program.
Jesus IS not in TJ's league - he just got really lucky.
My wife said "who the heck it that guys barber" when Mason was on screen - I was wondering the same thing.
:-)
"Don't stay up for 72 straight hours right before your big interview on world-wide TV."
Ok to miss a meal now and then.
I've got a barrel full of fish if you want to come over and shoot some of them.
Thanks I must be thick.
I was taken aback by this comment, Rounder. You always struck me as being a pretty nice guy.
Lot's of people have that mis understanding of me.
Actually it was a mean thing to say. And I have an excuse, I have been an asshole lately and just don't know why.
Maybe it's because you miss all this good poker in Arizona. Come on back, where you're real "home" is.
JohnnyD
Everyone's entitled to a couple of thousand mistakes in his life.
At least I hope so, for my own sake.
Be well.
SammyB
Tony Soprano's comment is just a tad more subtle: "You should seriously consider salads." ;>)
Bill et al,
The show was great. I even *almost* got my wife to watch -- hehe.
But seriously, you could see live how TJ was getting the best of it over and over again, and how lucky Chris got. And I agree about the quality of the production (so much better than watching van patton or the rounders actors); and the graphics and odds displays were so good too as were the bios on the finalists, especially to see how the final table had TJ (who is an alltime great, and and ex-pro football player), two University Profs (one of whom is a rabbi), and a very serious and educated guy like Habib and Chris who is a CS PhD. And of course David and Mason, being, well, David and Mason: Good to see you guys in person and I enjoyed your comments. Nice job guys.
Mark
Agreed. I thought the commentary by David, Mason, and even Phil Hellmuth was excellent. My only question is "Who the heck is Lance Payne"?
I didn't catch that; did they have that onscreen instead of "Layne Flack"? Maybe he 'fooled' 'em.. :)
n/t
The Discovery Channel web site says the show is scheduled for rebroadcast on Nov. 5th at 1 PM. I'm not sure what time zone applies.
Bill-You may be right about the name. I was referring to the blonde guy in his late 20's/early 30's who was termed a "poker pro". I have never seen him or heard of him. Just curious.
That was Layne Flack. He is a high stakes and tourney player that won a world series bracelet in the 1999 pot limit hold'em event. More importantly, he is from Missoula, Montana just like me. I think Zee lives around there now, too.
Must be something in the water.
It WAS a pretty good suckout, no doubt about that. But it wasn't really quite as bad as it looked.
You look at it and see that he had virtually no chance at the river and that's true. But that's not when the money went in. He had a ~25% chance of winning it when the money went in and a nine falling on the river is just part of that 25%. Once the money is all in, the order in which the remaining cards come is irrelevant. Except of course for what it does to the player's blood pressure. :-)
I've watched tapes of every WSOP final table now that TJ has played in (I think). I've never seen him put all of his money in without the best hand. It's kind of scary. You almost HAVE to put a bad beat on him to win. If I was Chris, I probably would have taken a stand with that A9 too, in the hopes that TJ had JJ, or something.
Folks interested in the tape should check my post on "Other Topics".
David
TJ put all his money in with the worst hand went he got broke by McBride in '98(do the math). He's clearly the best tournament player ever, that was just the worst played hand of his career, from start to finish.
Ferguson's real mistake was the re-raise to 600K, exposing him to the monster all-in push. At that point he has to call, because he knows he has a better chance as a 3-1 dog w/five cards to come then he does folding and playing on as a 2-1 chip dog.
My real gripe isn't with him, it's with everyone saying how great he played and at the same time how lousy Jeff Shulman played, but that's beyond the deadest horse on this forum.
How about something they didn't show from this very event when TJ bluffed off about a half-million chips on the flop, turn, and river with Ax against a stubborn McManus' AK.
.
He put all his money in with A-10 suited against Seidels pocket fives (I think) in the 88 WSOP. Only a slight dog but still the worst hand.
He was down to the felt in that hand. His hand against Humberto Brenes earlier was the bad beat that crippled him. TJ had AQo against Brenes' 96o. Brenes flopped two pair and turned a boat.
OK - NL HE tourney/satellite. You are at the final table and down to final two players. Each has about the same stack and no deals.
Obviously you have to play hands you would never play in a full game. So, the question is:
- What should be the raise be when you are first to act? Normally I like to be consistent in the raise that is the raise is the same regardlesss of the quality of the cards (in a full game, this may be a pot sized raise) - is this valid heads up?.
- Having been raised by the other person what cards do you call with, fold with and reraise with?
I frequently have this problem in satellites.
z
Usually the more aggressive player wins in these situations. You must play a lot of hands in a short period of time and you are making a lot of decisions.
These heads matches get into a certain rythem and it is hard to say with any precision what hands to call reraise with or raise with. Except you almost have to raise or reraise just about every hand or fold it.
If you are just calling and checking (not check raising) you are gonna get killed.
So my advice is to be raising and betting rather than checking or calling unless you are setting up a trap.
I consider J7 to be sort of the average random hand.
If that is any help.
Hi all!!!
I have a theoretical question regarding the value of hands when you are in a steal position or when the pot is short handed (like at the end of a tourney), say with 3 players remaining.
I understand that when the pot is short handed the hands become more random than if all the seven players acting before you pass cause they have nothing, then the blinds are somewhat more likely to have something.
So my question is: when stealing the blinds or playing short-handed (even heads-up), what hands are you looking for??
I know any ace, pair, 2 picture cards but say in these next three hands which one would you prefer to have ??
1. Q-6 offsuit 2. 10-7 suited 3. 8-7 suited
And why??
I would say the Q-6 cause of the higher value of a qween if nobody improves...
Thanks...
ThePrince
prince wrote: "I understand that when the pot is short handed the hands become more random than if all the seven players acting before you pass cause they have nothing, then the blinds are somewhat more likely to have something."
I disagree. For the most part, you can ignore this so-called "bunching" concept. While it does exist, it is pretty minor, and does not mean enough to waste your mental effort on.
What hands do you want? Well, it depends, of course.
If it is pretty certain that everyone else is going to fold, then any 2 cards will do. If they're likely to reraise you all-in, then you need a very big hand. Will you or they be all-in from the single raise? If so, then you don't need to worry about implied odds, and you prefer high card strength over hands that play well postflop. If your raise will leave you (and your opponent) with lots of chips, then you want a hand that plays well. Of course, AA and many other high card strength hands play well. But, if there's going to be lots of play postflop, I'd rather have suited connectors than K4o.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Point well taken Greg...
I never lost any sleep over that bunch factor, I just knew it existed, if none of your opponents have an ace and fold, then it is more likely, statiscally that one of the blinds has one...
I never took that into consideration when making a decision tho...
From what you've said...
Question # 2 :
If you know the player in the blinds are going to let you steal them half the time and the other half call (for the sake of this example, never reraising), you would rather have the 9-8 suited than K-4 off ???
ThePrince
It depends upon the money left AFTER they call.
If someone is all-in, I'll take the K4. If there's a lot of money left to bet, I'll take the 98. However, if I think I'm getting called half the time, I'm probably not stealing with either hand, unless I know I can outplay the opponent postflop pretty well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
n/t
Does anyone know or have access to the TEARS formula for determining the time per round?
I believe the TEARS formula uses a fixed increase in limits, but the time per round is adjusted based on the number of starting players.
There's a fait bit of info on TEARS at PokerPages.com. If you go to poker info then look on the links on the left and you will find the Tex's Tears. Not sure if it answers all your questions but it may help.
I haven't been to the page yet, but I recall seeing on rgp that you could go to the following website and get more info.
www.geocities.com/texstears
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I was playing in a no-limit tournament the other day when the following hand came up.
Down to 11 players, they pay final table of 9. Blinds are 200-400, and I have T6400, almost exactly an average stack.
The table is 6 handed, and everyone folds to the button, who makes it T2000 to go (he had a couple of hundred chips more than me). He seemed like a fairly decent player who was capable of trying to steal, and to lay down a hand. I am in the small blind with 99, and I call. I know, I winced myself after I just called here. The BB folds.
The flop comes T24r, and I push my remaining 4400 chips into the middle. He pauses for what seems like an age, and finally calls. He turns over AT and I exit in 11th.
Questions:
1. Should I have raised or folded this hand? I am still not sure but I think for 4400 more he may have folded.
2. Say he only makes it T1000 before flop, would it then be more reasonable to call, bet say 1500 when I see that flop, and then shut down if he calls or raises?
Andy.
Like you said, the call should make you wince. You can't call for 30% of your chips hoping to catch a good flop. If you and he had 40,000 in your stacks, then sure, you could call a raise to 2,000 and hope to flop a set. But, with this much of your money going in preflop, you need a hand that you don't need a good flop to continue with.
Do your best to read the player, and then fold or reraise all-in.
The other key reason to reraise all-in is the big blind. You don't want him calling for pot odds with a hand that you just can't put him on postflop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Indeed you should either raise all-in or fold as you know. When trying to choose which one with a medium-ish pair, the question I like to ask myself is could my opponent make that raise with a lower card than my pair in his hand ? If he couldn't, then you are 50-50 at best and possibly a big dog so a pass could be in order. If he could, for example if like so many of my opponents he overplays Ace-small, then that points you more towards going all-in. Finally if he is the type of player who routinely slow-plays AA and KK even in a large-blind situation (which is a big mistake IMO) then that points you even more towards playing.
Andy.
I'd have to say mine was when I saw a pretty good player muck a royal flush on the turn. Ya, he had no clue he claims he only knew he held the K of hearts and not the jack too in his hand...
Still...there was plenty of action that hand, Oh, you should've seen the look on his face when he realized what he had folded...
He just got up from the table and left after that...
....What about you?
I have seen a lot of weird/dumb things. This one has to qualify for the dumbest. This happened at a 4-8 HEgame. Bad beat is $18,000 +. To qualify Aces full of Jacks must be beat and loser must use both cards winner can use one or both cards. Loser gets 1/2, winner gets 1/4, table splits rest. The board at the end of the action looks like this:
A A A K 4
---
There are three people left in the pot. I am thinking there is a huge possibility of a couple jackpot hands because of the table talk between the players and the way the action went. The excitement is building..winner shows his ace for quad aces..and says I got my part of the deal!
Other guy jumps up out of chair and throws down his two queens and yells HOO HAW! Table cheers! I cheer! I am thinking how sweet my 500+ table share is goin look..
Other guy who was in the hand is sitting there quietly studying the board and frowning. He starts to turn over his cards. I am sitting close to him and know that this just CAN'T be good. I reach over across the table and try to stop him..but its too late. He proudly tables his K-2 offsuit (WTF he was even doing in the pot to see the turn with that is beyond me) where the dealer can see it and says, "Don't I get the big part of the jackpot". Whole table falls dead silent. After a moment of silence, several people start talking about him in a very bad way under their breath) I quickly flip over his cards but it's too late. He of course is looking at me like I am crazy.
NO BAD BEAT! He could not use both his hole cards and he nullified the two queens as the loosing hand. He sat there and apologized for a while and no one at the table would even talk to him..other than to call his I think the guy with the two Queens was ready to kill him.
We argue and argue with the floor person..but to no avail. After it is certain that no one is getting paid..the game goes on. Some of people at the table (not me) were being so nasty to him that he picked up his chips and left the table a couple minutes later on the verge of tears.
so..next time someone beats you with some crappy cards, just think of the poor guy that lost 9K with his pocket queens cause some fool stayed to the river with King Deuce..
Final table - dizzy woman and me in a pot - I have TT flop is AKQ - she cheks I bet she calls turn a J she checks I bet - river a T no flush - she checks I bet she folds I show her the 3 T's and she said I knew you had me beat.
Duh!!!
From that day forward I always bet when the nuts are on the board - like they say "you never know"
was playing in a bar in oregon in the 70's where there was alot of action and one player named everette played every friday with his pay check. he was usually quite drunk in the game but was a very happy one always. one time he had a really good hand and and was getting raised when i noticed he had his cigarette against his head and caught his hair on fire. i yelled to him that his hair was on fire and it smelled like burning rubber. he just patted his head a little and said dont worry about it now as ive got a good hand.
true story from my archives of gambling on the road.
How about the 10-20 H.E. hand I was in with 4 10s on the board. Four of us still in. Bet, raise, raise, cap. Everyone in and laughing. I and two others show our Aces. Fourth guy slaps down his pocket jacks and yells, " I knew you were all full of shit, I got ya all beat!"
We just had to go silent and politely explain to him why he lost. We felt so sorry for him.
Went to see my coach and played 6-12 HE in Commence Club. On one hand, the final board is Q-8-8-6-6 and there was one bet and one call. The bettor turned over A8 and the caller turned over an 8 and said "good hand", then mucked his hand. After he realized, the floor was called and he told the floor "I made a mistake because I thought this is an Omaha game".
regards,
jikun
A guy was watching a pot limit dealers choice from the rail and talking to his buddy at the same time....
The guy he was watching says..... if you HAVE to stand there.... please keep your mouth SHUT during hands!!!
next hand...
6 card omaha
the loudmouthed guy flops top set....
a huge pot ensues....... $1000s
on the river..... the flush comes.
the loudmouth throws his cards away in disgust.
the guy standing behind smiles.....
too bad i cant talk during a hand....... you might have heard me say you just made a straight flush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers,
Keith
Seven card stud game at adjoining table at Foxwoods. Betting complete and it's time for the showdown; three people show their cards, and the fourth, a little old lady, reveals her hand and yells "Gin!" To their credit, the other players returned her money, and the floorpeople found her daughter to take her home.
John
Played in my first tourney ever last week. It was unlimited rebuy, $100 entry, $50 rebuy(if under 500)gets 1500 in chips both ways, wih a bonus rebuy for $50 of $4000 in chips at break after 60 minutes. Blinds and limits double after every 15 minutes starting at 25-50, 50-100, and thre was one . With about 15 minutes left to go at an 11 person table, and blinds about to hit me at 200-400, i had $625 in chips remaining. I was dealt crap for my BB, but got KK on my SB. I folded it, figuring i could skate until the rebuy with my single $25 chip, which I did, (barely). It's not that I wasn't in a financial position to rebuy, I just figured that if i waited 15 minutes more, i would get over double the chips for the same $$$, but now i wonder if maybe i should have rebought after first bb hit me to take proper advantage of any good cards that came along, like, i don't know, KK. Also, there were other people in that were below $500 at the break, who did a double rebuy, therefore bein able to get a 1500 chip and 4000 chip rebuy for $50 each. Now, i declined this, as it seems obvious the diminishing return, but am wondering if there is any real merit to this other than firing every bullet in the chamber. A simultaneous rebuy of this sort is not covered in Sylvester Suzuki's tourney book, but this seems to be similar to his advice on waiting for higher progressive rebuys to hit.
Aaron - I think it depends on how you play.
The more hands you play, the more your stack size fluctuates. If you play so as to have fluctuations in your stack size, then you need to have enough chips to avoid going "all in." If you play tighter, you probably don't have as large fluctuations as someone who plays more hands. Consequently you may not need to rebuy.
If you play fairly tight, but want to be able to maximize your profit by aggressively betting any good cards that might come your way, or if the cost of rebuying isn't going to affect your lifestyle one way or the other, then by all means rebuy whenever you're eligible to do so. Usually it will turn out that you didn't really need to re-buy. But you never know.
Buzz
Aaron,
It's not at all clear from your description why you folded KK. Couldn't you have re-bought for 1500 as soon as your chips went below 500, ie after folding your big blind ?
Andy.
Yes, as I stated, I could rebought after BB, but figured I should probably wait it out to buy back an extra 2500 chips for the same $$$. I specifically folded KK in This instance because I only stood to gain between 225 and 450 fom the hand, while putting myself all-in. To answer in part the previous post, $50 isn't going to break me, as i was prepared to rebuy at least 3 times, but $50 isn't just throw around $$$ either. I'm no pro like it seems most that post here are. Maybe in due time.
Well, I think you should have taken the 1500 rebuy anyway (unless that prohibits you from taking the 2500 which doesn't appear to be the case). It might be a bit too wise after the event to say "and then you could have taken advantage of the Kings" but if you are better than your opponents I don't think you can afford to sit on your hands for 20 minutes in this way.
If you haven't got the bankroll to take advantage of all the extra value rebuys then you may be at too big a disadvantage to those who are rebuying correctly to play in this tournament at all.
Andy.
Don't ever fold KK in this situation. It is the 2nd best hand in hold'em. Sure, you may lose, but you may double or triple up.
Ken
In the hope of getting Southern California casinos to host more no-limit tournaments with better structures, I am conducting a player survey. I'll be passing out questionaires at upcoming tournaments, but I'd like to get a head start by getting input from forum readers.
Please e-mail me and I will get a questionaire back to you in .doc file format.
I really appreciate your help.
Thanks,
Bill Scott wscott@deltanet.com
No Limit Hold'em - everyone starts with T2000 137 players
It is down to 37 players (pays top 10 spots only) - the average stack is about T7400 - I only have T2200. The blinds are 200/400 with ante of 25. I need chips to stay in contention for the final table.
I am in the cutoff seat. Everyone folds to me. I have KTo - should I muck or should I think about it?
I think about it - the button is very tight and has about T3500 - he's not going to risk his chips unless he has a quality hand. The small blind has a lot of chips - about T12,000 - but he's playing very well and tight too - he's definitely not trying to bully or doing anything stupid with his chips. The Big Blind has T2500 and is very very tight.
So, I figured, if I raise all in (T2200), the only hands any of the three can call is with any pair of 5s or higher (55 thru AA), A9s, KQs, KJs, AK, AQ, AJ or AT - anything worse than that, I'm 99% sure all three would muck (I'm taking a bit of creative license here - but sometimes they'd call with 22 and fold with AT or AJ, so all in all, I think these cards even out the probability).
Individually, they each have only 7.4% chance of having any of those cards. And as a whole, out of the three, at least one of them will NOT have a callable (or raisable) hand about 79% of the time - so I will get called 21% of the time.
let's assume that if I get called, that my chances of winning the hand is only 20% - because any hand that calls me is a favorite, some huge, some small....but obviously, if they all fold, I win the pot.
So, I have a 79% chance of winning T850 - and a 21% being called, in which I will lose T2200 80% of the time, but pick up roughly T2850 20% of the time.
79% of T850 = +671 21% of 20% of T2850 = +119 21% of 80% of -T2200 = -369 which makes this a positve expectation play of +421
2 questions: 1. is my logic & math correct? 2. if it is, and its a pos ev of 421, is it still worth a raise? (because if I lose, I've given up my option to see 5 free hands, in which I may have a higher expecation)
My gut feeling is that this hand is good enough to go all-in with here. If I were the small blind I might call you with more hands than you mention but this means that you can win more of the time when you get called.
The fact that the big blind is also short-stacked is another pointer in favour of raising. Finally, assuming there are 8 players, there are 800 chips out there, a standard pot-size raise would be 400+1200 which is most of your stack so you should certainly go all-in if you play.
Andy.
Why do you only give yourself a 20% chance of winning if called? The only hands that give you less than 20% are AA and KK. Against any other hand, you're no worse than a 2:1 dog, which is 33%. Against a hand like A9, you're going to win over 40%. Overall, I'd say you're going to win close to 1/3 of the time you're called, and you won't get called a lot.
To me, this hand is a clear all-in raise. You might pick up a better hand before hitting the blinds, but it will HAVE to be better. Every hand you wait, there are that many more hands behind you that might be even better. So, with more opponents to wade through, your chances of getting called go up, as do your chances of getting called by a good hand.
KT in the cutoff and you're short-stacked, go for it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Interesting that you think its clear cut. When I was in the middle of the hand (and clearly I didn't do the math that I presented earlier), I thought it was slightly good to raise. After I did the math (on a conservative scale), I thought it was good (better than slightly good) to raise.
But that brings up a new question - what hands would I fold in this spot? Assuming the worst hand that I could have (23, 27o, whatever you want to choose), I'd probably be a 20% winner if someone called....and I still will get the same probability of getting called. So would you raise in this particular spot and very specific situation with any 2 cards?
I wouldn't raise with any 2 cards because with 27o I'd be hoping for a better spot in my next 4 (or however many it is) hands. Off the top of my head again any '22' hand would do here (the sum of the two cards is 22 or more, J=11, Q=12, K=13, A=14), any pair down to, oooh I don't know, 77 or 66, maybe A8, A7 and a couple of others.
However, don't forget that if you get one caller even 27 or 23 is much better than 20%. AK vs. 72 is only 2-1. Provided your opponent does not have an overpair you should be much better than 20% with any 2 cards. Even A7 v 72 is only around 72-28.
Andy.
In this situation I would raise with virtually any two cards, without even looking, if I felt my remaining opponents were playing so tight that they would only call with a group 1 hand. That doesn't happen often, but sometimes when you get to this stage of a tournament, the play will become extremely tight. If you steal the blinds twice in a row you have almost doubled your stack and you have done this with relative impunity.
Bruce
bruce is right. How low you should go with your stealing hands depends upon how tight the players behind you are playing. If they're likely to fold often enough, you can steal profitably with anything. If they (well, exactly 1 of them) will defend with anything, you can steal profitably with hands that are in the top 40% or so of starting hands. If they're properly selective, then you should steal with something like the top 15-25% of your hands, depending upon other factors, like how deep the money is, etc.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
thank you all for responding - in this particular spot, I wouldn't qualify all 3 as only playing Group 1 hands, but probably Group 1 and 2 .... and maybe the one with the big stack would play Group 3.
but even with that, I'd say its awfully hard to not raise with any 2 cards in this spot. Just seems the right hand, the right players and the right chip stacks (including mine) to make this move in a NL tournament.
So, here's a key hand from the NL HE super-satellite last night. Started with 62 (?) players, down to 13, 7 at my table. T84,500 in play, and I have T3600 in the big blind. Blinds are T500-T1,000. 3 winners tonight, with the next 3 finishers getting $1000, $500, and $100, so we still have to lose 7 players to make the money, and 8 to make a profit.
Tight player in the cutoff seat is short-stacked. He's a good player, picks his spots. While he isn't going to play garbage here, he doesn't need AA, given his chip position. He has T2400, and raises my blind to T2,000 (leaving him with only T400). Everyone else folds.
Now, if he had raised all-in, I would have just called blind. Why look at my cards when I'm going to call no matter what? An all-in raise by him would create a pot of T3900, and it would cost me T1400 to call. We're too far from the money for me to fold 27% of my chips when a call has positive expectation.
So, what do I do now that he didn't raise all-in? I decide to call, and then to bet out on the flop, doing my best to act like the flop really hit me hard (no matter what the flop is). I want to give him a chance to make a mistake and fold. And, he's tight. Although I don't expect it, he might just fold if the board really misses his hand.
Flop is AJ7, all hearts. I bet out, he calls. He shows KJo, no hearts. I nod my head. Turn is a blank, the river the 5h. I table my Qc4h, and my flush wins the pot. This is when the eyebrows went up around the table. It appeared that many of them were surprised to see me show down that hand.
What do you think?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Can I just clarify that you had 3600 after posting the blind ? It doesn't make that much difference though. The play sounds fine to me. I think the only downside is that if you lose, you will be down to 2200 and you will lose the power to win a pot uncontested, but I think I could live with that because this way you have to lose 2 hands in a row to be knocked out.
It's not a dissimilar theme to the post below where I'm pointing out that 27 is no more than a 2-1 dog against most hands.
Andy.
.
You played hand #1 fine. You have to move all-in or get stuck out of position price-wise if you miss on the turn.
Hand #2 is another story. You are either totally dominated by a bigger Ace, worse than 2-1 dog against a premium pair, or in an even-money situation against a smaller pair. Despite appearing to be pot-committed, I think you should be able to get your head out of this trap. I'm not happy about playing even A-10 suited for a reraise.
Tournament Poker
October 2000 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo