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Welcome to the Tournament forum. This forum is for the discussion of poker tournaments.
Really like the new format. Thanks for the hard work.
X
First of all let me say that the 2+2 forum is great and breaking it into multiple formats only makes it better.
I play in Montana. Small limit with overs and no-limit occasionally. My primary source of income currently is poker. I've been playing for about 9 years and read quite a bit (I'm a law student who is taking a year off from school).
The Tournament: Every month the main place I play poker at has a tournament for the top 20 point accumulators (for some reason for the past three months I've had the point number of 666....hmmm) I've played in the tournament 4 times. I've placed 3, 4, 11, 13. Only the top 4 positions pay well, but the top 10 pay.
The set-up is as follows: Every player receives T100. Blinds start off as 1-2. Dealers choice (the games the table offers are hold 'em, 7 high, 7 low, 5 stud and 3 low) until the final table. The final table is hold 'em only.
I usually play relatively tight during the first part of the tournament...the blinds double every 15 minutes and I've found that people are loose enough that if you come in with a good hand you have a tremendous advantage.
What are people's thoughts on a 20 person freeze-out tournament (there are no re-buys, and no buy-in for that matter)? The top prize is usually around $1400.
"What are people's thoughts on a 20 person freeze-out tournament (there are no re-buys, and no buy-in for that matter)? The top prize is usually around $1400. "
Hell of an overlay! I'd play a free tournament like this every day if I could.
BTW - Is Montana still a state?
Vince
"Is Montana still a state?"
montana was a state? why?
scott
i just looked it up. not only was montana a state, but it still is. i still don't know why though.
scott
20 player free tournament with a 1400 prize - hell just chop it and take your $70 apiece and run :-}
Seriously is it free or some sort of promotional where you have to play so many hours in ring games to qualify for the tournemant?
Incredible overlay, I agree.
Of course, to play you must qualify by playing in the regular game -- but if you make money at that it is certainly worthwhile.
As for you're chop idea Rounder, the actual payout of the tourney is about 3500 total (3500/20 = $175) which is a decent chop. A chop usually happens based on stack size during the top 3 or 4. I'm pretty sure that a chop much earlier than that would result in a change in (or loss of) the tourney. Too bad.
Of course, you could always make a deal with the other 19 players to split first prize if either of you win. Hmmm...
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
The chop comment was supposed to be a joke. Guess I need a humor transplant.
Can someone expalin the tag team format to me. I see it advertized in some tournaments.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
x
I play tournaments for the enjoyment primarily. I like the competition, especially when it gets down to the money positions. You learn a lot about people when you observe how they react to the prospect of cashing in a tournament. I find that it isn't even the amount of money that causes these personality changes, but rather the proximity. A certain percentage of people actually stop playing when they get close to the money. They seem to fear busting out more than they desire to win. They enter almost no pots and base their whole payout expectation on the attrition of others. Another group of players hunker down and play extremely tight until they are safely in the money and then explode into a maniacal frenzy, playing fast until they achieve bust out or chip leader status. The wily veterans take advantage of both extremes, punishing the fearful and challenging the reckless. I will often upset the table when I mention that I won't be making or allowing any deals during the tournament. The players who are simply waiting to move up a notch or two in the pay outs seem most disturbed by this development. By insisting that no deals be made while you are still in play, you control the tempo of the table. Often players will be concentrating not on the hand currently being played, but on the size of your stack and trying to maneuver to outlast you to be around for the deal they think will surely be made once you are eliminated. Any distraction is beneficial to your chances to win. My main tournament strategy consists of maximizing my chances at one of the top three payouts in any tourney I enter. I get to my share of final tables and do everything in my power to make each final table appearance an attempt to win. I willingly sacrifice my chances at a middle finish to position myself with a good chance to win. With the prevalence of 40%-20%-10% payouts at the top, it just doesn't make sense to shoot for anything other than a top three finish.
Lots of CrazZiEs in Atlantic City this past weekend warming up for the end of the month Tourneys. These people are nuts (you know who you are). The Presidential candidate himself will be there. Come on down; weather is great; food is teriffic; people are nuts. Transportation is cheap. You do not need even to rent a car. Easiest way is to fly is go to Phila and shuttle bus or train to AC or AC International direct then a $20 cab ride (15 minutes); NOT via New York unless you like $100 cab rides. Any questions about AC, just ask me (e-mail for personal stuff) For general stuff that might interest a wider audience, post here.
John,
I couldn't agree more. I think my biggest overlay in the tournaments I play is that I'm not interested in the token ($100 or so) payout for 5th-9th while everyone else seems to be obsessed by it. This more than makes up for my lack of experience. Now, I just need to get nasty enough to refuse those deals .... :-)
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
First of all, the new format to the Gambling forum is a great improvement!
I'm fairly new to poker and have started playing in the local weekly tournament. The books that I have read and many of the posts here don't seem to be geared for the type of tourney I play in... Here's the set up:
Hold Em, $60 buy in, no re-buys, $2,000 in chips, no limit (except for first hand), blinds start at $25/$50 and double every 15 minutes with 20-30 players, pay off is 60/30/10.
What I'm hoping to find is some solid advice on my starting strategy; begining, middle and end. Begining, do I play overly tight (only the biggest pairs and AKs etc.)It seems like when the blinds are small, people will limp in, which, it seems will allow me to limp in in late position and face a situation that I describe below. How about when it's down to 10 or so people and the blinds are getting bigger and bigger. And, when there are only 5 or so left, I don't seem to have a game plan. I either catch and win, or I don't and lose... seems like there has to be a bit more strategy involved other than luck.
Also, It seems that my mistakes usually center around getting caught in a flush/straight draw on the flop when there are enough callers pre-flop, with no raises in front and I'm on the a blind or the button. It seems that I always have to make an all in call on the flop on my draw, which I do. I'm ethier out or I'm on top... How do I handle this situation?
What I want to begin to establish is a game plan. I'm familar with many of the players and am learning there tedencies, but I need a plan on how to play the different phases of the game andhandle certain situations. Your in put is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
DAN
If you have to play drawing hands - suited lower cards 1 2 or 3 gappers - do it early in late position - med to small pairs no set no bet in other words dump them - stay out of longshot draws like gut shot and runner runner anything.
When down to the last 10 I'd survey the table to see if there are a lot of kamikazi type players ready to take each other out. Play the last table real tight until there are 4 or 5 left and then loosen up and start stealing blinds with half way decent hands and hope for a decent run of cards cuz you can't win without some decent cards but you can get to the last 10 with skillfull play.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I agree with Badger's comments, and would like to expand on them a bit.
What I am going to discuss is MORE true in NL, but it is true in all tournaments when you reach the later stages (when pretty much everyone is short-stacked, and an average stack can only play 1 or 2 hands to the end without going broke).
You need to be looking for situations more than looking for cards. If you're one off the button, and the tightest rock at the table is in the big blind, do you really need a big hand? If everyone else has folded to you, it may be that a raise now will steal the blinds well over half the time, just because of who is still holding cards behind you. In other cases, you may know that a player will call your raise a lot, but will almost always fold if he doesn't flop top pair or better. In other cases, there is a chip leader behind you who is fearless and aggressive, and he may reraise you with anything. In each case, the situation matters more than your cards, and you should think about what cards you need to make a play BEFORE you even look at them. This way you won't pass on the opportunity to steal just because you see that you're holding 72o. If you've decided to steal before you even look, then you are more likely to follow through without hesitation.
In the case of an aggressive chip leader behind you, decide which hands you're willing to play for all of your chips, and fold anything less (which sometimes might be some VERY good hands).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You missed one important opponent. The weak player behind you that will call your medium pair raise with K,9s or even K,xs. Beat you every time!
Vince.
****Caution**** The following post is long and involves tourney description without discussing a single hand played.
Tonight at Crystal Park they unveiled the new Sunday nite NL Hold-em tournament format. $50.00 buy-in, $10.00 "juice" with T800 and no rebuys or add-ons. $4,000.00 guaranteed prize pool. 47 players buy-in, so there is a shortfall of $1,650.00 which the house makes up. So far, I like it a lot. There is the usual mix of very good players (10), so-so players (10), very little hope players (10), and "no chance if they live to be 100" players (17).
Some of the very good players are Mike Chang, Anton Uelker, "Chico", Kathy Kohlberg, Craig Wong, "Harley", Bill Scott, and a couple others whose names I forget but whose games I remember vividly. The new format calls for us to start at 6:00PM instead of 5:30 as advertised. Play actually begins around 6:10 or so. Several dealers are given early outs so that they can play in the tourney. (two were last minute additions to my table)
Rusty Mandap was the tournament director tonight and he does an excellent job of running things. I saw nothing occur out of the norm that he wasn't hovering over immediately and being decisive. Anytime Rusty is in charge, it is a vast improvement over the norm.
By the time we finally got down to the final table, a lady player named Simone had personally eliminated at least fifteen players and controlled T14,000 of the T37,600 in play. As soon as the final table was formed, eight handed, since two were knocked out in the same hand for hand sequence, someone mentioned doing an eight way deal. I was about to mention that I don't make deals when another player pointed to me and said "He won't make deals." Payouts were $1,560.00, $800.00, $400.00, $320.00, $280.00, $240.00, $160.00, $120.00 and $120.00. One of the eight players brought only T150 with him to the final table, but he outlasted a player named Boris who pushed all in for about T2,000, was called and knocked out by Simone. Tony, the player with the T150, was next out. The railbirds were chanting for a deal as they always do, hoping that each remaining player would be paid enough that they might part with a "lucky" $5.00 chip when walking past them to the cashier's cage.
I finally managed to whittle away at Simone's stack and put her out in fifth position. We wound up playing four handed for about 20 minutes when "Harley", the player who told the other players that I don't make deals, suggested that since we were all in reasonably equal chip position, and seemed to know what we were doing, we should consider an even four way split. Since I had the fewest chips, T6300, was the big blind at T500-T1000 with T200 antes, and hadn't picked up much of anything for the past 15 minutes, I was ready to listen. Four way, each of us would get $770.00. After all the others assented to the deal, I decided that I was happy to go along with the chop. I really believe that you get a much better deal when you express a preference to not make any. Poker players are a perverse bunch.
I am almost never able to get out to play on a Sunday due to family obligations, but I heartily recommend this tournament to any on the forum who appreciate NL Hold-em and guaranteed prizepools.
Firstly, I'm quite pleased that the Forum has been split like this as now I don't have to wade through interminable discussions about JT being 5 cents better than KJ and so on. If you had a forum entitled "My Aces got cracked, it's not fair", that might weed a few more out (only joking).
Anyway here are two hands I was involved in yesterday which illustrate a point I'd like to make. The game is Pot-Limit 7 Card Stud (a rocking game), 31 entrants, $40 buy-in, rebuys for 75 minutes, $4000 in the pot. Prize breakdown is $1600-900-550-350-175-120-120-120-120 . This is in the UK, but all money is quoted in dollars to make it look bigger :-). As an aside, I would like to ask people to include the prize breakdown in any tournament question as it makes a big difference.
Hand 1 : Two tables, 6 players at each. I have about T7000 which is just under the average stack, antes are 400. Jack (high card) on my left brings in for 400, all fold to me with (85)8. I raise 2500. Jack (player who I haven't seen before but seems reasonably sensible) has T10000 or so, he calls. Jack catches a King, I catch a four, he checks. Now I have T4500 left and the pot is around 7000. I decide to go all-in. In the approved style I won't say what happens yet but it is given away to an extent by the very existence of ......
Hand 2 : Down to 5 players. I have T25K, two other players about T30K each, lady on my right has T10K and one other is short-stacked. Antes are 800. There's a lot of stealing going on so I decide to limp and re-raise with the next big hand I get. Straight away I pick up (JJ)A, all other upcards 10 or lower, I bring in for the minimum. Fold, Fold, Fold, lady showing a four raises 5000. I re-raise. Now she has about 4K left and there is around 18K in the pot that she can win. I've never seen her before either but she seems to know what she is doing - I put her on a pair of 4s most likely. She thinks for a while, looks hard at the short stack who has about T2K and folds. Next hand the short stack drops out, she picks up another $175 (and goes out herself almost immediately). A railbird tells her what a good pass it was in my hand. I keep the now legendary low profile, but between us, I disagree entirely.
The plays I want to focus on are my all-in bet in Hand 1 and the lady's fold in Hand 2 (although any comments on other plays are welcome). My point is simple but will I think be contested - there are times in a tournament when you have to bet (Hand 1) or call (Hand 2) even if you think you have a second best hand.
I welcome all comments and will expand my reasoning as necessary.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
Further techie question - can anyone tell me how to make the above URL appear as a hyperlink ? Thanks.
"Hand 1 : Two tables, 6 players at each. I have about T7000 which is just under the average stack, antes are 400. Jack (high card) on my left brings in for 400, all fold to me with (85)8. I raise 2500. Jack (player who I haven't seen before but seems reasonably sensible) has T10000 or so, he calls. Jack catches a King, I catch a four, he checks. Now I have T4500 left and the pot is around 7000. I decide to go all-in. In the approved style I won't say what happens yet but it is given away to an extent by the very existence of ......"
This depends entirely on the player. If he's a good player, he sees that you're last to act and will raise with many hands at that point. So he's calling 2500 into a pot that will have 7400, and he'll have 7500 left. With these odds, and since you probably don't have more than a pair of eights (and may even have less in your position), he might make this call with a lot of hands. Certain hands should probably just reraise all in there - you have only 4500 left. If he has a 3-straight, he has three overcards to your pair, and many cards will improve his hand on fourth. He also might just call if he had a 3-flush with overcards to your pair. And you might not even have a pair. If your eights and fives are totally live, and if you have a 2-flush, you're probably only a 2-1 underdog to jacks on fourth street. It's close to even if he has something like (33)JK. If he caught an offsuit king, it improves any 3-straight. If he had a 3-flush he now has a few overcards and a small chance to make a flush. So he is unlikely to fold to your bet on fourth. You're betting 4500 into a pot that will contain 16400. With twelve players left, it is probably best to go all-in here at those odds.
"Hand 2 : Down to 5 players. I have T25K, two other players about T30K each, lady on my right has T10K and one other is short-stacked. Antes are 800. There's a lot of stealing going on so I decide to limp and re-raise with the next big hand I get. Straight away I pick up (JJ)A, all other upcards 10 or lower, I bring in for the minimum. Fold, Fold, Fold, lady showing a four raises 5000. I re-raise. Now she has about 4K left and there is around 18K in the pot that she can win. I've never seen her before either but she seems to know what she is doing - I put her on a pair of 4s most likely. She thinks for a while, looks hard at the short stack who has about T2K and folds. Next hand the short stack drops out, she picks up another $175 (and goes out herself almost immediately). A railbird tells her what a good pass it was in my hand. I keep the now legendary low profile, but between us, I disagree entirely."
In a side game, her fold would be a major error. Even with a pair of fours against certain aces, you would call all-in for 4000 into 22000. The fours don't do *that* badly when they can get the higher pair heads-up, since they can often win with two small pair when the higher pair doesn't improve. In this tournament situation, she shouldn't be focused on just advancing to fourth place. She should be looking to double-up to contend for the higher places, and should not have raised with a pair of fours to begin with. With 4K left and the ante at 800 per hand, she doesn't have a chance. So even given her earlier call, her fold is a mistake here.
"The plays I want to focus on are my all-in bet in Hand 1 and the lady's fold in Hand 2 (although any comments on other plays are welcome). My point is simple but will I think be contested - there are times in a tournament when you have to bet (Hand 1) or call (Hand 2) even if you think you have a second best hand."
When the pot is large relative to the stacks, it often becomes correct to call with a second-best hand given sufficient odds. (And that's even more true if your bet with a second-best hand might make your opponent fold, or if your opponent might not have the hand he represents.) In late tournament situations, there are times when you don't want to get involved, since the chips you risk are worth so much more than the chips you stand to gain. But that isn't the case in the examples above.
Thanks Dan,
That's pretty much how I see it. One incidental point I'm interested in, I wonder if my original post was clear, where you say "[She] should not have raised with a pair of fours to begin with".
Putting myself in the lady's shoes on Hand 2, five-handed with about 12 antes left, if an Ace brought it in for _the minimum_ and everyone folded to me with a pair of fours in last position, I would raise every time. A pair of fours against an Ace plus two random cards (essentially) is good enough for me to go for it in this spot, and if I get re-raised, shrug my shoulders and toss in the rest. There's a good chance I can win the antes without a fight as well. If there's something I'm missing here, please let me know.
Thanks,
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
If she was last to act before the high card, then it is correct to bet there. If she was in an earlier position, that bet would be a mistake with a pair of fours.
.
I am contemplating entering a 7CS super satellite for entery into a $120 Tournament. The buy-in is $10 with unlimited $10 rebuys. I have never played in this type of tournament (unlimited rebuys) and need advice on rebuy strategy. Thanks in advance.
If the rebuy gets you the same number of chips than the original buyin, then make a rebuy every time you go broke or are very short-stacked.
If the rebuy gets you more chips than the original buyin, rebuy every time you are allowed to do so.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I played in a rebuy tournament with a guy like you last month $55 for $500 in chips and unlimited rebuys for 90 min so long as your stack was under $500 and 2 rebuys on the break.
This guy rebought 10 times - thank god I got several of his illadvised all in bets. You see he went there intending to play real loose and rebuy as much as he could. After the rebuy period he was out in 2 hands.
Multi rebuys if pure folly and a sign of a really weak gambler - My advice would be to rebuy once on the break if you need to top up your chips. If you go into the tourney with the attitude I'll play this junk and rebuy if I'm not lucky - well I'll send a taxi to the airport for you.
Well now, you've read WAY TOO MUCH into my post.
I never said anything about how to play those chips. I just said when to rebuy.
As a matter of fact, I play pretty tight in most tournaments, tighter on average than in a ring game. This is primarily due to the fact that there are typically not enough people in preflop to justify playing any drawing hands in any position.
Why do you assume that because I (almost) always rebuy when qualified, that I also play super loose?
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hey Fossilman, chill! Just cause the man said you was a Super Goose doesn't mean you should get your "Down" up. Or did he say super loose? Guess I better reread it.
Vince.
Greg, Response was not pointed at you - I was just on your reply when I answered Jakells SS question.
Guys, don't forget this is a super-satellite. You would have to be nuts to buy in 10 times when your maximum win is 12 buy-ins (doesn't mean no-one would do it, tilt happens).
I assume that when you say "unlimited" buy-ins there is a limited _period_ during which you can buy in any number of times. Anyway, the unlimited buy-in combined with it being a Super-Satellite makes this very different to a normal tournament. If people re-buy just twice each on average then (work it out) 25% of the field will win an entry. In this scenario your strategy is three-fold : survive, survive and survive. There's no prize for winning.
Just watch out for the classic Super-Satellite trap - if you have a big stack and only a few players remain to be knocked out, such that it is virtually impossible that you could be anted out before the necessary players are eliminated, throw away EVERY HAND. Experienced players have been caught with this before in WSOP Super-Satellites. Aces go in the bin in this situation.
And my last two cents' worth, if you're planning to buy in a few times in this SS, why not just cough up the $120 and enter the tournament if that's what you want to do.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
If they are running multiple super-satellites, your best approach is to not rebuy at all. Due to the escalating limits, the most valuable stack you will own is the initial one. If you lose it, come back tomorrow (or in some cases, tonight), and play another one. If you don't have the option of playing another super, I would plan on one rebuy and cap it at no more than a rebuy plus the add-on.
There are exceptions. First, if I went broke in the first 20 minute period, I'd consider rebuying then. You are still not far behind the field even with a fresh stack. The idea is that you should rebuy as SOON as possible. Second, even if you are playing multiple supers (and thus take the approach of not rebuying), in some, you may find yourself in a precarious position at the end of the rebuy period, and at that point it may be necessary to add-on. When I say precarious, I mean a stack that just needs a little pumping up to be in the middle of the pack (i.e., you didn't lose anything that first hour, but you didn't win much either, so an add-on puts you back in contention). Even if your stack is a little weak, it only takes your next good hand after the break to put you in a strong position.
I would not add-on if I've multiplied my stack by a factor of 2 or more during the first hour, or if I were so short-stacked that an add-on would still leave me very vulnerable. Lets say you get 300 in chips for each buy-in, and at the end of the first hour, you had 800 to 1000 in chips -- I would not add-on. Also, if you had less than 200, I would not add-on, but if you were stuck in the middle, at say 500, where 300 more chips would put you in position to fight, then, yes, I would add-on.
While $10 isn't much of a buy-in, nor is $120 much to be chasing with multiple rebuys. Even for a $220 buy-in and a $10,000 tournament, multiple rebuys aren't very good business. If you are going to make multiple rebuys, and have the option, a single table satellite is a better investment.
One factor almost always overlooked by players is that rebuying has a deleterious affect on their performance. Not only do they play in a different manner that first hour ("I'll rebuy if I go broke"), but the rest of the table is gambling with them, and are in fact preparing for their inevitable tighten up after the break. I prefer to play solid the first hour, then open up when all the loose gooses from the first hour close up shop (in a 7-stud event, this is usually the entire table, unless you have marginal limit hold-em players at your table who may still be gambling). In the last five years of WSOP super-satellites, my best performances have always been when I approached the event with the idea that I would not rebuy.
It always seems like the weak loose very aggressive ones always rebuying one after another. Looking to get "lucky".
I remember some joker rebuying 8 times in the $220 WSOP - didn't matter as soon as the rebuy period was over he was all in and all out.
I just love these guys with testosterone overload.
I am relatively new to tournament play in AZ. I have noticed that there are many groups, or consortiums involved in each tournament. My question is two-fold, is this legal, and assuming it is, what is the best strategy against these groups since they have a distinct advantage in merely the number of hands seen? Thanks for the help.
Cat - I agree in Arizona specially there are guys making side bets on who lasts the longest and swapping percents of each other. I assume it is legal but I don't like it much eigther. I have had guys, good players, say anytime I want to swap 25%. I never do it. I think it affects how they play and how I might play.
Use it to your advantage if you can.
I think these guys are mostly bad players big 20-40 losers and don't mind it to much.
I play tournaments in the 4 Phoenix casinos.
I'm just fixin' to go play in the 11am Casino Arizona Limit HE tourney.
Rounder, what are the best tourneys in AZ to avoid the group situation? How do you use it to your advantage? Thanks for your help.
The only regular tourney where there is not a lot of this is the Sat morning (noon) at Harras. It is Limit HE $25 buy in and about 40 or so players - I like it cuz I think it is a soft tournament and easy to score in plus a $5 knock out prize.
Otherwise if your gonna play in Arizona get used to the buddy system - like I said most are poor players and don't much make it to the final table that is why they do the $20 side bets on who is the last one out.
Use it to your advantage by knowing the players and who plays the buddy thing. I'll have more to say here but have to go.
A word to the wise about going to this tournament at the Cosmos Casino later this month.
You must declare how much cash you are bringing into Russia at the Moscow airport customs checkpoint. You must also declare how much cash you have when leaving Moscow/Russia. If you have more money than what you came in with, you could be in for some real problems - the least of which would be confiscation of your money.
Russian authorities are very sensitive to cash leaving the country. Put that together with any language barrier you may have and you might find yourself detained, missing your flight and/or in jail.
If you don't declare your money coming in and try to leave the country without declaing any money, all of the bad things above could happen but worse.
Generally speaking, casino's in Moscow are bad news. I have walked through two out of curiosity which advertised poker. In both instances, the poker was "Oasis Poker" which is a form of "Caribbean Stud" but with an option to draw a card.
There are lots of "Mafia" types hanging around these places and I don't recommend being anywhere around these places if you have any cash on you - especially after dark.
Sorry to be so negative but I have been there.
Moron
Sounds like southern california :-)
I have had the pleasure of playing with the Russians. You can beat them playing cards, but you cannot win on their turf.
To play in Russia you have to be a moron (yuk, yuk).
seriously.....bad news unless you are a diplomat
I was hoping to get a little info. from the experts. Omaha tourneys-what are definite hands to play from any positions and what hands are good in certain position; i.e. what is your weakest starting req. on the button with 4+ callers (no raises)? I have been playing HE and am considering broadening my horizons.
Thanks for the help.
Jeremy
I will be traveling to an area that has began a higher buy-in limit HE tournament than is normally spread. Their is a $20 entry fee and a $300 buy-in for 3000 units. I understand that the blinds increase every twenty minutes (its a 6 hour cruise). One Add On of $ 200 is allowed for 5000 units. This is a new tournament limit, but about 18 people usually show up for the normal $ 100 buy-in tournaments. I have played against nine of the regulars in a normal ring game and none were particularly strong HE players. Normally, six places are in the money, but I believe 10 or so people will place in the money in this tournament? Any comments on strategy? With the Add On giving 5000 units, it appears that even a chip leader would be smart to Add On.
Yeah you have to add on at that ratio.
blinds going up every 20 min is fairly standard
ring games are different than tournaments - so you may find your regular players playing differently in a tournament I'd reserve judgement on their play until you see them in action odds are if they are weak in ring they will play the same weak game in a tournament.
6 hours is a long time for 18 people to play a 1 rebuy tournament although $3000 is a huge amount of chips for a limit tourney - I suspect your competition will see the huge amount of chips and play real loose early. I advise you not to do the same. If they are loose you play your tightest game early and as the blinds go up loosen up and adjust to the table changing - new players and being short handed.
if 18 play the $100 I doubt if they will draw more than the 18 - If they advertise it maybe they will get some high rollers in for the bigger prize you never know.
I wish you success.
I like the website's new expanded setup.
What do you think of the following deal:
7CS tourney with 15,000 in chips in play.
First Place: $1000 Second Place: $500
Its down to 4 players with antes of 50, 400/800 betting. We're half-way through the 20 minute round and antes/limits continue to double.
One guy has about 11,500 in chips and the rest are about equal at around 1200. The large stack seems to be content to let us other three take turns stealing the antes and bring-in, so we propose to him to give up $100 and let us take $200 each. He agrees without giving it much thought, but gets criticized by his buddy for being to generous.
Here were my back-of-the-envelop thoughtson this deal from his perspective:
100% probability of getting at least 2nd place money.
70% probability of getting first place money given the size of the limits and his (correctly?) letting us knock two players out and consolidating 30% of the chips.
His EV = 25% * $500 + 75% x $1000 = $875.
Seemed like a good deal for him, but I didn't want to quibble about 25 bucks split three ways.
The only reason I second-guessed myself was that the large stack was directly on my right, so it was more difficult for the others to steal my bring-in for fear he might spring to life. I might have tried taken a shot to try for the second place money yself if there wasn't a spot in the pot limit game waiting for me.
What do you think?
I agree with your calculations, except why did you use 75% and 25% when you did the math? It should still be 70% and 30%, which yields an EV for him of $850.
And when you think a bit more, even if it's not much, there must be some chance that he won't get any money at all if you play it out, which reduces his EV even more (probably to ~$845).
Since he got $900, it's a good deal for him.
I see his buddy's attitude quite a bit. You can be pretty sure that his buddy just doesn't appreciate the difference between a sure thing (100%) and a likely thing (70%), and therefore has no clue what the difference is truly worth. These are the kinds of guys who have no chance of ever beating sports betting. Of course, I have no chance either, but that's because I don't anything about ANY sport.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The amount of chips in play was approx. 25000 the chips in this tournament are worth six cents on the dollar the chip leader had over 18000 in tournament chips and the stakes were going to be increased to 1600-3200 ,
Close enough. I was just reconstrucing the numbers so that the math made sense. I figured the guy had about 70-75% of the chips, so I guess I was close enough. Don't you have any real estate to sell?
$55 but in with unlimited rebuys until break (3 limits) 60 players and over 13,000 in pot - so winners share is about $5,000.
I'm playing bad cards as well as I know how and winning the odd pot best hand is AJ and I had to chop that one.
Biggest pot came with AT that I played like AA and won without showing.
After the break limits now $200/400 I have about $1500 and Ac5c and raise one limper to $400 blinds fold. Limper reraises me I call. Flop is 3c 4d 6c limper checks I bet - I have open ended straight 6, nut flush draw 9, and A 3 - I figure I'm a fav here - Qd on turn I bet $400 call river 5s I'm out of the tourney - playing a hand I despise in a tournament.
guess If I hit one of my 18 outs x 2 I'm in with $3300 and a better chance to win this thing.
Never mind, happens to the best of us. I'm not a limit expert (in Pot-Limit all my money would have been in on the flop), but I am curious as to why, seeing as you are almost certainly behind, you didn't take a free card on maybe the flop and definitely the turn ?
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
The guy I was playing against was a weak passive calling station sort and I wanted to get rid of him right there and I plus I'm committed to this pot and I'm walking out if I lose or I double up.
Andy guess I'm playing to much NL HE - had a testosterone attack.
Cheers
If he's a weak-passive calling station type, why did you think he would fold to that ragged board after he three-bet you on the flop? These types of players will check-call you down with an overpair all night long. I would have taken the free card on the turn and looked to show down your Ace if you missed.
At least you went down swinging. In these tournaments, you have to make moves against the players rather than wait for a big hand and get blinded out of contention. This seemed like a good shot to try to pick up some chips and it didn't work out.
In no-limit, you probably would have taken it down by moving in on the flop.
I wonder if it wasn't a reaction to being called weak/tight by someone on this forum? I say you should play the game that feels the most comfortable to you. One of the biggest advantages I have is knowing that I'm probably at a disadvantage when it comes to having the ability to outthink some of the high profile tournament players I compete against. Since I can't outthink or outplay them, I'm forced to look for situations where they are unable to use their superior skills against me. I prefer to leave them with a single decision, call or fold.
John
that comment didn't affect me. It was my chip position and button position - were the deciding factors.
I probably would not have played the hand to begin with. With a limper your quite possibly taking the worst of it plus you don't know what the blinds will do. If I was to play the hand I would just call before the flop and try to get a free card on the turn.
Bruce
What did Mr. Limper have?
KK
60 players made over 200 rebuys? This sounds more like a Southern California Limit hold-em tournament.
Axs? I'm glad to see that you are opening up and playing like the rest of us Gamb00lers!
When you bet the turn did you believe you had a decent chance to get the opponent to fold? With that 5 on the river and the scary board, I wonder if he would have called had you just checked the turn and bet the river?
Disclaimer: One of the reasons I avoid limit Hold-em tournaments is because I don't know how to play the game. This doesn't keep me from expressing my opinions on how others play it, however.
John I got this guy to fold onm the river with a TT earlier in the game I knew I was pot committed and just bet it out. That is why I prefer NL HE - limit is to much of a gamble. :-)
X
Another option would have been to dump the hand pre-flop when the limper reraises you. I would think that the "Aces or Kings" flag would come up when he reraises. If you dump, you still have 5.5 small bets which gives you a chance.
Easy to say in hind sight.
I was probably just disgusted - for 1.5 hours I had to struggle with NO cards at all - won with AT and chopped with AJ stold a few other pots cuz of my table image - the suited A with one strange player was ok to make a move with and hell I had 18 outs and would have looked like a gunius if I hit.
It is not my style but I played it anyway.
Understand.
I've seen the same movie a few times myself.
Better luck next time.
"Ac5c and raise one limper "
Rounder,
We both know that a raise in this situation was a big mistake. The results were a perfect example of why this is a terrible play. You were reraised by a limper. A very good sign of a big hand. If he has Aces you are drawing mighty slim. Kings only slightly better. Think of the worst possible flop for your hand. You got it? A big draw. You are the favorite (~3 to 2) but if you miss your dead. But wait the opponent checks the flop. You bet and are called. Mistake, maybe, maybe not but when he calls you gotta figure your beat. But wait he checks the turn (now you are a dog(~3 to 2 to a big pair). You bet! That has to be a big mistake. He checks the river. You bet and you are gone. Three+ strikes and you are out. I do not want to appear too critical but your whole post smacks of a defeatist attitude. Somewhere along the road you appear to have mentally given up. That is not meant in a derogatory way. It is just my observation.
Vince.
Vince good observation, I am in the dumps lately, the way I played tonight I should be arrested for impersonating a poker player.
I made atleast 5 major mistakes, if I wrote them all down I'd just throw up and that is not good.
I have this personal problem with one of my kids and it is eating me up - so maybe I ought to just lay off poker until my head is clear.
A very strange thing happened to me yesterday in a NL HE tournament. 60 entrants, top 4 places pay with a heavy weighting towards 1 and 2). Down to the last 6 players. Blinds are at 240 and 120. Each player started out with T50. I have about T900, another big stack has a little more and the rest of the players are very short-stacked.
I'm in the BB. UTG raises all-in (another 13 chips making it 253 to go), middle short stack calls (leaving him with about T 150 left). SB (another short stack) folds and I looking at a bet of 13 chips I call. I hold 4/2 off suit.
Now things get weird. The all-in player (UTG) turns his hand over -- it's Q/10s -- and then the middle player (who is not all-in) turns his hand over also (it is either Joker, 2 or Joker,3 -- yes I play with that damn Joker). The dealer immediately tells the two players to hide their hands. Both hands only flashed briefly so people don't know who saw what, but being attentive, I saw everything--still not sure if it was a 2 or a 3 in the other players hand.
Flop comes 2,6,7. I check, middle checks (he is looking at me like I might know his cards). Turn is a J. Checks around. River is a K. The board now reads 2,6,7, J,K no flush possible.
I pause for a moment and realize that my little 2,4 is not such a great hand right now, then I say to the middle player, "Well since I know you have Joker,2 I know I have you beat -- all-in." He looks stunned. Thinks for a moment and folds. I take down the pot with my pair of deuces (he would have had me out-kicked if he had a deuce,joker). If he had 2,Joker he folded the winner. If he had 3,Joker he folded wisely. He didn't tell me what he had and I didn't ask.
He was visibly angry by the whole deal, as was the other player who was all-in (though I had him beat).
What are people's thoughts on this sort of situation? Generally I play poker to win -- no soft-playing. The other player made a mistake by not protecting his hand -- I exploited it. The fact that I did not have the hand I thought he had beat makes my statement a pretty obvious falsehood. I know that it is permissible to lie at the table (which is why I am very careful about what people say to me at the table.)
As for the tourney -- I placed 1st, mainly because of the significant chip lead this pot gave me at that on the next pot the middle player called my all-in bet (I think he was tilting because of the previous hand) when I made a full house on the flop to his straight draw).
I think that during the play of the hand that these sorts of things are perfectly acceptable, with one major caveat.
Doing this pisses people off. That's fine, if that's all it means. However, when everyone is pissed off, the game usually isn't as good (profitable) for me, or any other player who has +EV. In the long run, you're better off NOT pissing people off. If you don't mind that affect, then go right ahead.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think you can say pretty much whatever you want during a hand, so long as it doesn't harm a 3rd-party involved in the pot. Some folks might not even draw the line at that. In any event, unless you are skilled at that sort of thing, it is as likely to backfire as it is to succeed.
Tourney starts at 6:30, unlimited $10.00 rebuys for staggered amounts at the first three levels. T200 to start, rebuts T200 1st level, T300 2nd level, T400 3rd level. You can add on T400 or T800 at the break. Tonight there were 93 entrants and 299 rebuys and add ons with a prize pool of $3,920 and T127,000 in play. 1st prize was $1,380, 2nd $900, 3rd $480, 11th thru 18th got a whopping $20.00.
I begin my tale when we were down to 14 players. UTG, a good, solid player, Frank Rite makes it T1,800 to go. Blinds are T300-T600 and antes are T200. Both table are seven handed. So there is T3,300 in blinds and antes before his T1,800 bet. There are two folds when it gets to me and I look and find AKc. I push all in for T8,900, everyone folds to Frank who debates for 30 seconds and calls. He has enough to cover me plus an additional T1,000. I turn over my hand and he shows pocket 10's. Flop, turn and river give a board of J,5,5,J,3 and I lose.
I love my all in raise here in spite of the result. I forced an excellent player to make a tough decision at a crucial point in the tournament. Frank had to have known that his call was mathmatically correct given his hand and the possible holdings I might have had to push it all in, given the money already committed to the pot. He had to decide whether to risk busting out and getting $20.00 versus the near certainty that, with his remaining uncommitted chips, he could survive to at least a final table finish. I would have arrived at the same decision as he did if I were in his situation. I believe we both played the hand perfectly. My raise gave him an opportunity to make a mistake, but he didn't do so. I hope Frank went on to win the whole thing.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Love your move. I don't like Frank's initial raise to 1800 at all. It seems like he was committed to calling a reraise, so he should have "signalled" that by putting at least half of his stack, or about 5k in. With his raise to only 1800, he allowed someone like you to force the action and put him in a bind, where the best he could hope for was to call as a small favorite or a big dog.
Additionally, with the antes, the big blind will be getting great odds to call if it is folded around. Counting the antes and Frank's initial raise, the BB will be looking at 4100 for a 1200 call. Withe the antes in play, a "pot-size" raise to about 5k is in order here.
It seems like he wanted to give himself a chance to get away from the hand, but then put you on AK, or some other hand he could beat. Unless he had a great read on you, I think he just got lucky and guessed right. After all, it is a lot more likely that you are making this move with AK or JJ-AA than it is with 99 or 88.
unless you never make these plays with big pairs its a hard call for anybody. you did what i do in these spots. i still feel you are misrepresenting yourself when you say you are a recreational player. you look like a pro, act like a pro and talk like a pro. you are either a pro or a duck.
O.K. Ray, but before I answer your question about which I am, you'll have to answer mine. Is it duck hunting season in Montana?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
John,
I consider an all in bet a lot differently to, say a $2k or $3K bet in this situation. Everything being equal I am more proned to call an all in bet in this situation more often than I would call a smaller but substancial bet.
Maybe it is because if I had AA here I'd be betting $2K to $4K looking for a call.
Rounder,
Against good competition you have to consider where you are in the tournament, your chip position, his chip position, your hand, his possible hands, the possible consequences to each of you from a loss or a win here, and the potential each of you would have to place highly without playing this hand right now.
I knew that Frank might have bet the $1,800 with the intention of throwing it away if someone put a lot of pressure on him. I also knew that he would probably put his whole stack in and call if he was betting a big pair or AK and almost nothing else. The T4,100 in the pot that would be mine if he folded, plus the risk he had to feel when I pushed it all in, combined to make me confident that I was doing the right thing. I knew that Frank would have to weigh all the factors before calling unless he had AA or KK. I figured that if he had QQ, JJ, 10-10, or AK, he would make the call about half the time. My all in bet of T8,900 would leave him only T1,000 if he lost and make him the shortest stack in the game. If he knew that I had AKc before he called, he would have had an easy call because of the pot odds and the fact that he was a slight favorite. If he believed that I would only make this move against him with AA,KK,QQ,JJ or AK, which is probably the range of actual hands I would have needed at this point, considering my comfortable stack size and the payout structure, he should have thrown his hand away. The fact that he called means that he figured I'd make this move with several more holdings than bigger pairs and AK.
BTW, I talked to Gus, another friend of mine yesterday, and he told me that he, Frank and another player chopped the top three spots three ways. It is nice to know that he didn't squander all those chips he got from me.
John I'm not saying I'd have called you here with TT. I just can't say that now as you know it is situational.
I have made similar calls in similar situations with 55 because of the player involved.
Your raise was a world class play here - would you have done the same thing with AA or would you try to entice a call with say a a $3000/$4000 bet to win the T$4100 ($1400 ante $900 blinds and $1800 bet) pot.
Rounder,
I hope you don't think I'd really answer that question?
Actually, against any player I would probably raise it all in also. The T4,100 without a flop looks very appetizing to me. If you have T8900 an can pick up T4,100 without risking being drawn out on, that is usually what you would prefer to do.
John just taking notes for future reference. :-)
Yes "ducky" but he question is would you still raise all in if you knew he would call? His raise is right on the money for a medium/high pair in his position. 3 times the blinds. You must have read him wrong. Your bet was made in hopes he would fold. He didn't.
"I love my all in raise here in spite of the result. I forced an excellent player to make a tough decision at a crucial point in the tournament"
I guess Ray was correct. This is the statement of a "duck" not a (confident) "pro". What possible pleasure can be derived from losing in this situation. Making an "excellant player make a tough decision" is hardly a reaon to celebrate. You must be "ducking" the real issue. A call/fold just may have been a better play.
Vince.
Vince,
There was never a point when I considered calling. AKc would be a terrible hand to just call with here against a good player. I'm trying to win the T4,100 right here and now. I succeed here and I have 10% of the chips in the game and I'm the tallest stack at my table. I either raise all in or I throw the hand away. If I believe he has anything other than KK or AA, it is a great all in move. Since I have AKc, take a guess as to how many hands he could have had like AK,AQ,QQ,JJ, 10-10,9-9 rather than AA or KK.
I'm not claiming to be anything other than a duck (unless it is currently duckhunting season). You see me as a duck and try to feed me the wisdom of a pigeon. Whatever happened to the boldness you used to expouse?
Your question about whether I would have moved all in if I had known that he would call. That is very difficult to answer correctly. I know how this player plays. Half the time he held QQ, JJ,and AK, he would throw them away after I moved all in. This would depend on the makeup of the players remaining in the tournament, our relative stack sizes and whether he thought I might be getting out of line. If he calls, I'm getting at least marginal pot odds for the chances my hand would have. When I saw his 10c-10s and my AKc boarded face up before the flop after he had called, I was neither surprised nor too disappointed. I would have preferred in this order: him folding, him calling, me folding without making the all in move. If we say that I had approximately 46% equity in the pot before the flop, (because one 10 was a club) with T20,100 in the pot that 46% comes out to T9,246. You shouldn't base your assumptions only on how the hand played out. If you add in the money I win that percentage of the time those pocket tens hit the muck, my EV on this play is pretty good. I think that most experienced NL tourney players would make my move against a known good player. With Frank crippled and my big stack if I win here, my overall chances for one of the top three payouts have improved significantly.
These 5 BIG mistakes coat me plenty last night. NL HE Tournament was $55 buy in unlimited rebuys and $3000 added. 58 entered and $13,500 total prize pool.
I have no idea what I could have been thinking when I didn't play thses hands - maybe I lost my courage or maybe my personal life is affecting my poker play what ever the reason I have to fix this problem or else.
I'm posting this as a sort of critique of what could have been a super tournament experience. Please don't be to critical of my play I already feel bad eneough.
I make only one add on at the break so my out lay was only $105 total.
Mistakes:
1. Early on blinds 10-20 I'm mid position with 99 make it $50 - it's raised to $150 and called by loose aggressive players. I muck and 9 hits board. Would have won with 9's full of 6's over KK-66.
2. 25-50 blinds QQ 2 all in bets by weak players before I act I fold them Q hits the river would have cracked the AA's.
3. Fold KQh on the button to a big bet from bad player who had 8 rebuys in the 1st 1/2 hour no flop.
4 Late 14 players left (7 each table left) blinds 400-800 I have $3200 I fold A7 on button with NO callers and blinds look beat. No flop. I suk.
5. Last one - mid position $3800 in front of me 800-1600 blinds - one desperate caller playing before the blinds wipe him out another bully puts 1600 I muck a AT - flop comes ATx K high wins it. I am ready to puke just I'd have over $9000 now with just winning this hand and have a chance at the $5000 prize.
I didn't play poorley except for these hands I actually made some brillant plays during the 3 hours I played but in retrospect these errors cost me plenty and are about of character for me. I have no Idea what happened I had a great table image and was alert only thing I can put it down to is mental lapse at crucial times.
I'm trying again tonight and hope I snap out of this funk.
Maybe I have some sort of death wish.
Comments.
Well, just one comment, you are being a little harsh on yourself by playing the "I would've" game when the flop comes up after you fold. I'm sure you know this anyway but your decision in case (1) for example with the nines is right or wrong at the time you make it. Flopping a nine doesn't change it. As an aside, it is impossible to comment on this play without knowing how big your stack was.
As I say, I'm sure you know this when your head is straight, but it's worth reminding any new players of this. In the meantime, I hope you can sort things out and I would advise not playing if your mind is not wholly on the game. Trying to play through it is maybe not such a good idea.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
Andy,
It isn't the woulda shoulda coulda deal it is the bad plays in good position with chips or rebuy possibilities. I never mind mucking a hand correctly even when the flop is to it. That is part of the game.
These hands were solid and against flakey opponents that I knew were not playing solid poker.
What I do mind is a bad lay down for the wrong reasons.
Cheers
Correct me if I'm wrong but mistake #2 was a good lay down. Two all in bets, I don't care how weak the players, I would have folded QQ. As it turned out you would have gotten very lucky on the river but in NL you never want to chase and that's what you would have been doing if you called.
Yeah maybe I was tough on myself but I was in a rebuy period and the risk reward for the triple up that early would have made a difference.
But your probably correct I was definately looking at an over pair if not 2.
It appears to me that you're being overly harsh on yourself.
Rounder wrote: 1. Early on blinds 10-20 I'm mid position with 99 make it $50 - it's raised to $150 and called by loose aggressive players. I muck and 9 hits board. Could have won with 9's full of 6's over KK-66.
Not a terrible mistake, and may correct. If you know that the raiser needs an overpair to make this raise, then you can only play to flop a set. I don't know how much of your stack it would take to call the extra T100, but if it's a lot, then folding isn't bad. A call, hoping to flop a set against this many players, is probably better, but I need more facts to set my opinion.
2. 25-50 blinds QQ 2 all in bets by weak players before I act I fold them Q hits the river would have cracked the AA's.
Again, not terrible. Even if they're weak, they must have an A and a K between them, so you will lose here in the neighborhood of half the time, even if neither has AA or KK. I probably would have called, but it isn't necessarily the correct play. Depends upon the particular make-up of these 2 players.
3. Fold KQh on the button to a big bet from bad player who had 8 rebuys in the 1st 1/2 hour no flop.
Easy fold. Even if he's weak, he can still pick up a good hand. And, of the times you're ahead preflop, in almost no case are you a big favorite. Only if he has exactly Kx or Qx (where x < Q) are you a big favorite.
4. Late 14 players left (7 each table left) blinds 400-800 I have $3200 I fold A7 on button with NO callers and blinds look beat. No flop. I suk.
I agree that this is a mistake. The small blind will likely fold anything but a monster hand, and the big blind will be 1 of 2 types. He will call with the large majority of his hands, because you're obviously stealing. If he's this type, then you're a favorite. Or, he will fold all but the very best hands. In this case, you win the blinds the large majority of the time. Either way, you win (on average).
5. Last one - mid position $3800 in front of me 800-1600 blinds - one desperate caller playing before the blinds wipe him out another bully puts 1600 I muck a AT - flop comes ATx K high wins it. I am ready to puke
This is like #3. There is obviously some chance you've got the best hand. However, I would think that there must be a pretty good (> 1/3) chance that you don't. And when you do, you probably won't be much of a favorite. So, a fold appears correct to me, especially since it's late in the game and you can sit back and wait for others to knock themselves out. Plus, you'd rather be the raiser in a spot where you expect everyone to fold. If you reraise here, the bully is probably pot stuck, and will often call.
It sounds like you're not in the best frame of mind, and you've said before that you can't win with your A- game, only your A+ game. Therefore, I recommend taking a break, and doing something else just for relaxation, with no money on the line.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
Thanks for the analysis - I agree with most of it.
Inretrospect I know every tournament I have placed high in I had seminal moments like the AT or A7 hands where I make a bold play for alot of chipa and win it usually pulls me to victory or a high finish.
I also play the players really well in NL HE and I knew these were bad plays as soon as I mucked them.
1st 3 were marginal and probably the QQ was a good laydown but the 99 was early and the rebuy period was ineffect and I had over $600 in front of me. A call was in order here as it turned out the guy with kk would have certainly called a big bet.
OH well - I think I'll meditate and try to improve my concentration.
One question when did the 9 come, on the flop, turn, or river. In this situation you probably could've called (its questionable in my mind, but I play very tight) but if the nine doesn't show up on the flop you're probably going to have to fold depending on the action and the board, the only situation were you might continue is if you have an overpair and there is only a little action but if someone makes a move and you don't have a set your gonna have to pass.
flop was 973 -
flop was 973 - 66 on turn or river. I had the nuts.
O.K Who is attending the Foxwoods Tournamnet Starting Nov 29?
Vince
I know that you know this Vince, but for the information of other readers, I will mention that I will be attending at least 6 days of the tournaments.
I have lived here for just over one year now, so last year was my first WPF. However, I highly recommend them to our audience here. The tournaments were well run, give you lots of play for your money, and the fields are softer than any other major tournament that I've played in.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Vinny,
I have heard alot of nice things about Foxwoods but few of us out here in the S/W even know where it is.
I was going to call them today as I am between Foxwoods and the Sr. tourney at Crystal Park in LA. I have a bunch of free S/W air free tickets so the flight expense is meaningless.
What is the nearest airport and how far from the casino?
Rounder,
S/W flies into Providence, RI. T.F Green airport is about 45 miles from FW. Avis or National usually have the best rental car deals. There is a shuttle but I believe it is around $75 one way unless you can find someone to share with, The problem with FW compared to CP is hotel costs. CP has a great rate at the Hotel there. I belive it's 35/45 weekdays/weekend. FW is much higher.
S/W may also fly into New London CT. It's closer. Or Hartford, About the same as Providence. I have No Car info for those locations.
Vince.
I am pretty sure that SWA does not fly into Hartford (which is also about 45 minutes from Foxwoods).
The Groton/New London airport is only big enough for "puddle-jumpers", not full-size passenger planes, so I doubt much of anyone flies there.
The rates at FW are very high, and you won't get comped all that much for playing poker. I would recommend a rental car and a stay at someplace 5-20 minutes away, where you can probably get a much lower rate.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Rounder this may help. I would recommend Prov. airport it is really nice and on time flights. TF Green. Plus SWA flys there.
Paul
HOTEL RESERVATIONS 1-800-FOXWOOD When making reservations: TWO TREES INN $55 per night (please use group code#3792) GREAT CEDAR HOTEL $66 per night (please use group code#2121)
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If you can get this $55 rate, that is a very good deal.
However, I've heard that they are sold out of rooms at this rate. Of course, it can't cost you more than a couple of minutes to call and find out if my info is wrong.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
if you cant find a room im sure both Fossil Man and Paul Feeney will take up to 20 2+2 posters for the duration of the tournament at their houses. id go for Fossil man's place as Paul Feeney will drive you plum batty. Just say Vince sent you and insist on breakfast.
O.K Ray have your fun. Just wait until Paul and Big John want to travel to Montana and meet Papa Bear. You'll be sorry!
Vince.
Of course, if you learn to be nice, they may take Brenda with them. "Havin your baby" doo, dah, doo, dah!
Any preference between the Foxwoods tournaments and the one at the Taj in Atlantic City. Both are about the same time. Which is better?
Ratso,
To be honest, I don't know. I am in New England for a while and Foxwoods is convenient. It makes you wonder why they would run both at the same time. They must have had success this way or you would think they would come to a comprimise. Interesting.
Vince
Ray good Idea.
I am leaning towards the Seniors but the East coast looks good too.
I'll let you guys know what one I choose and I am sure both will have plenty of 2+2ers there.
What ever one I go to I'd like to meet any regulars to say hi and put a face with the name.
to Vince, I heard a rumor on rgp that the tournaments were at the same time because of constraints on room availability at both locations. I know rooms are always short at FW, and apparently that is often true at AC as well. Apparently the first half of December is very slow for both casinos, so that is when upper management will allow the poker rooms to run their tournaments.
As for which is better, everyone I know who played at both last year and had an opinion preferred FW by a landslide. The events at AC cost more, but had smaller fields. So, the overall prize pool was bigger at FW I think, and you risked less money (but had to beat more players to reach the money). From personal experience, the fields are pretty weak at FW.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The satellites in AC are huge. They have additional tables on the casino floor roped off. I'm going there Tuesday. I'll let you all know what it's like. They are cheap to buy into and some of the table are very weak (as my friends tell me). Friends passing through FW tell me it is very nice but very crowded
I don't know about the fields since I can't find any info in that regard concerning Foxwoods. A couple of things though which might be better in A.C.
1. Chances are you won't have to wait very long to get into a side game in Taj. In Foxwoods however you might wait a very very long time. Also there will be almost twice as many side games in Taj as apposed to Foxwoods.
2. On top of the regular tournament schedule in Taj they will also offer second chance tournaments I believe thursday thru sunday. These should be $200 to get into. So you can potentially play in two tournaments in one day.
One other note the Trop will probably have some tournaments running at the same time as well in $100, $200 range.
Just wondering if anyone had any opinions on Poker Tournament Strategies by Sylvester Suzuki?
James Flames
I have read it and some of the advice is spot on specially the discussions of how the different tournamets change at different stages. Worth the money.
I also like TJ Cloutiers NL PL HE it has done more for my tournament game than any other book and I have read or seen most of them. Probably cuz TJ has many similar ideas about certain hands as I have and since I came to my conclusions independently.
Someone at the Gamblers Book Club implied to me that Suzuki is really Mason Malmuth. Is it true?
No. He is a retired Japanese man who wants to keep his idenity private. He does however play a lot of small stakes tournaments. I am the publisher of the text and I did spend time working on the manuscript to make sure that it was very accurate. But I am not the author.
Mason,
You are always getting things mixed up. I think he asked you if you drove a Suzuki not if you are one.
Vince.
Mason,
Is he a So. Cal. player? I have a friend, an American of Japanese descent named George. He once brought up that particular title, asking me whether or not I had read the book. When I asked him if he were the author he seemed a tiny bit unsettled for a second before replying negatively. The man I'm thinking of has a wealth of experience playing small buy-in tournaments but has never won a major tournament title.
I know you cannot answer me, so I guess this was a rhetorical question. In any event, the next time I see him I'll probe him further on this question. If Stanley could find Livingstone then I guess Big John can find Sylvester Suzuki.
I don't think the book is worth buying.
Does anybody know what has become of Tuna Lund? I haven't seen his picture or name in any of the tournament result sections of Card Player for more than a year, maybe two.
Was that big tuna or little tuna - I have met them both.
Vince Burgio is a good friend of Tuna's. He told me one year ago that Tuna was going through a divorce.
Tuna must be in one of those dreadfull dry spells that all world class tournament players must eventually experience. One thing is for sure, he's bleeding. We know he is obviously losing in tournaments. And since he is not known to play much live games he must be losing at poker overall. Maybe he's got non-poker "outs" (business, investment) but we can't be sure of that. This is a reminder for all of us that we must be humble and that we must manage our bankrolls with the assumption that the next sickening losing streak is just around the corner.
Someone told me that he has had eye surgery and might have missed going to tournaments at all for a long time. Sorry, I don't remember who told me that. I think someone also mentioned that he attended the recent Peppermill tourney.
Well put Kojee!
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I asked this same question of some of Tuna's friends in Reno. They said that he went through a divorce and now has custody of his children and doesn't have a lot of time left over for poker tournaments.
"this should be a reminder to not spout of about stuff you don't know shit about."
Go Badger baby! Don't sugar coat it! Tell him what you think. Yeh man who does he thibk he is? What a horrible thing to say! Yeasssss!
Vince
BTW - who's Tuna Man?
Steve,
Isn't, or wasn't he having some pretty severe vision problems in the past year or two? Perhaps to the point where he wasn't able to read the board cards? I know I heard something like that from a tournament regular when someone else was asking why Tuna wasn't playing much anymore.
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Is Moose777 really a bearded man, Badger?
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No. Just curious.
Hay Don,
You spoke a little too soon. If you look on page 97 of the latest Card Player Magazine, you'll see that Tuna finished 3rd in a $100 no-limit hold'em event. It's right smack-dab in the middle of the page, ya can't miss it.
Last hand of tourney: No limit, blinds are at 800/1600. We have nearly even chips (only two players left. I had a little more (like 19,000 to 18000).
I'm in the BB with 4h 2d. SB blinds $800. BB (me) blinds $1600. Pot is now $2400. SB calls $800. Pot is now $3200. BB (me) checks. Board: 5c 4s Th SB checks. BB (me) checks. Turn: 6d SB bets $3200. Pot is now $6400. BB (me) calls $3200. Looking for a 3 for a straight. Pot is now $9600. River: The beautiful3s SB bets $9600. Pot is now $19200. BB (me) raises $5600 all in. SB calls all in. Board: 5c 4s Th 6d 3s Players' hands: SB: Kh Ks BB(me): 4h 2d
Straight takes it down. A few thoughts: The other player clearly missed a bet on the flop. If he had bet at all I would have folded. His bet on the turn gave me 3-1 on a gutshot. Obviously not good odds, is the call that bad and was the river card a miracle? Overall I think the SB mis-played his hand terribly and I got relatively lucky on the end.
SB should have been all in pre-flop or on the flop with the KK he stupidly slow played it and paid a price.
Reading the comments about Phil Hellmuth great tournament player and not so successful ring player I got to thinking about the adjustments and differences on my game.
Like a lot of you I like to play tournaments and ring games - a lot of the players play the same game in Limit, NL tournaments and limit ring games. I don't my NL game is very different than my limit tournament play and both vary from my ring game play I was just wondering how many of you adjust your game and adapt to different situations by playing much differently depending on the circumstances.
I am entering a NL HE tournament this evening. It has $25 buy-in, same rebuys and one add-on. I have only ever played in one tournament before; it was a limit and I was the last one to be knocked out before the last table which is in the money here. Limited to 40 players but I doubt that there will be 40 attending as it is a little out of the way. I know how most of the locals play in ring games and can do OK there even though I am a rookie as I have studied up pretty good and usually play alright. I am not sure how to change strategy for this tourny. I have ordered HEAP and theory of Poker but have not recieved them yet. Have read Ken Warrens Low-limit HE and Thursday Night Poker mostly plus all the essays on 2 plus 2. Thanks for any tips.
Dave you'll get this to late for your NL tournament but here is what I think (know) is a winning strategy.
Survival, you can't win if you are not there.
Until the break don't do bust on anything but KK and AA see cheap flops and make big bets unless you HAVE it don't draw and don't play drawing hands.
Get a very tight table image - after the break when the blinds are a higher loosen up somewhat. Make larger bets in good position and if you did the right job in the 1st part they will fold to you.
Don't bet the blind EVER - always be raising and be on the lead - in no limit it is not about the cards it is about aggression and domination.
BUT you have to last the 1st 3 or 4 rounds. Out last the dead money 50 to 75% of the field and you're in with a chance.
One thing to keep in mind is when playing short handed six or less players - your starting hand requirements go way down - K7 is a great hand on the button when passed to you BUT you better not call here you need a substancial bet.
I wish you success
Rounder, I just got your message this a.m. but believe it or not I followed your advice anyway. Have been following your posts this last two months and understand your philosophy pretty well I think. I reread the post darse billings? had on BORG when he was giving advice to a tourney newbie and it seems just like what you are saying. Anyway believe it or not I won the whole thing. 22 players about 50 rebuys and 20 addons for a pot of 1650 of which I got %40. First NL HE. I really followed your advice and before I made a play said "Rounder says pitch this hand". Couldn't believe it when 5 players called my raise in the first rounds when I had the best hand by far. Later I stole quite a few blinds when I had a big pile of money. I am definately buying a few books from 2 plus 2 about tourneys with this money as I have got a lot of help from their site. Mentally, I felt that I was better than anyone else there which is crazy except that in two months of real hard (obsessive) studying I do know more than I should. I really thought that no one could beat me but the fact is that I got good cards last night. Again, thanks for always replying and giving your best experience. I know that experience probably cost you a lot of money to get and everyone on theis site is real good about helping a new player.
Congrats Dave,
Don't forget to start a record of tournaments include buyin and any rebuys you spend money on, casino, type of tourney and amount won. This will help you analyze your game in future and also know how your doing.
I'd suggest Suzuki's 2+2 Tournament Strategies and TJ Cloutier's Championship NL PL Hold'em - you'll have to re-read this one a few times to pickup on TJ's unorthodox but solid tournament strategy.
For the first 3/4 or more of the tournament, I think you should play to win chips. Being eliminated isn't a good enough reason to pass up a favorable chance to win chips. During this portion of the tournament, you have to win chips in order to reach the money stages, so you shouldn't pass up good opportunities to do so.
During this period, the major adjustments I make are related to the changes that my opponents make, and the changes required by stack size.
For example, if I see a guy who just got cracked raise, I know he may be on tilt, and I may be more inclined to play than otherwise. Other players loosen up a lot if they have a big stack, so you can play a few more hands when they raise. Finally, some players tighten up significantly in certain situations (usually when they're short-stacked, but some tighten up to protect a big stack they just won), and you need to be aware of this and be less inclined to play when they come in.
As for stack size, it doesn't do much good to limp in with suited connectors after a bunch of others limp in, if everyone (or you) only has a couple of bets in front of them. One reason to play a hand like this is all the money you can win AFTER you make your hand. Here, by the time you make your hand, everyone will have folded or gone all-in (so there are no implied odds available). Same thing with small pairs. The implied odds aren't as good, because you or the opposition often runs out of chips before the river.
Once you reach the money stage, that's when you really make adjustments from a normal ring-game strategy.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks, Greg. Did not get your post in time for last night's game but fortunately I did figure out about the implied odds and threw my suited connectors away early after I didn't flop and caught on about the lack of further betting. Was my first tourney; fortunately I think a pretty easy one to be in. Poker is new to this area and a few old-timers have played quite a bit in other cities but there were a few rookies there and a lot of dealers from the next place as they seem to be off Sunday. I need to work on end play; and will order some books today. maybe you and Rounder have good book suggestions for tourney play. Thanks.
I know the most profound adjustment I make between NL Hold-em tournaments and NL Hold-em ring games.
I usually hold my money up and yell "rebuy" at tournaments. In ring games, I hold it up and yell "chips".
Sometimes, in tournaments, the tourney director will come by and say: "Sorry, Big John, this is a no rebuy tournament." Sometimes they claim that the rebuy period ended before I went broke this last time. In either case, they assist me in getting up out of the seat I'm occupying and point me towards the nearest exit from the tournament area.
In ring games they don't seem to have this mercy ruling yet, continually allowing me to exchange bills for money until I run out of both at the same sitting. I hope this helps in your quest to develop a winning tournament and ring game strategy.
I like the idea of the nonsmoking tournament. As a reformed smoker (4 packs a day) I do not mind the smoke and haze of a smoke filled card room. But there were some side beneifts to the no smoking event.
During satellites I noticed players running out after their blinds and returning a few hands later. Seemed strange to me that they would miss their best positions and then noticed they were in the lobby sucking on the cigs. What a joke these guys couldn't go an hour with out their fix.
I also noticed the smokers getting anxious during the longer sessions - we need more no smoking events.
I wish Foxwoods was non-smoking.
Paul
Finally, a tournament where manslaughter and murder with the use of second hand smoke is illegal. Hooray!
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gee Badger your taking over all my platforms. whats going to be left for me to preach about. but after playing in cal. how can you go back to vegas. if you figure your extra per hour gain during the tournaments minus the loss of lifetime you get extra small amount of dollars but less time to spend them. although i may go back to vegas for a tournament it should be a short trip.
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Question regarding money management:
I have pretty good success starting NL tournaments. Usually make it to the final 4 or 5. But then, I always seem to make the wrong move. I usually end up playing too tight, and losing my blinds.
I know I need to loosen up some, does anyone have any general suggestions on how to get a feel for when to take a chance and make a move?
You definitely need to go loose aggressive when it is down to just the 3 of you. But I think that you should stay tight aggressive when you're down to 5. It's 4 handed that confuses me but I would lean towards loose aggressive if I'm either the big stack or the little stack and lean towards tight aggressive when I'm somewhere in between.
Holy - think in terms of your big card when you get down to 5 or less a King with 2 passers is a good hand. Any pair is golden and needs a big bet. Ax is an all in with a couple of passers. Loosen up near the end and you won't be sorry.
It is time to take control of things and kick some boody.
The thing to do is to look for situations. You want to raise preflop when you believe that everyone else will fold, or when you have a hand that is likely to be the best one out there (and then you don't mind getting played with).
If you fold on the button just because you have weak cards, that isn't good enough. Many times, you will be in a situation where both blinds will fold much more than 50% of the time, so you should raise with anything. Other times, you have a good stack, but one of the blinds has more, and you know that they are likely to put pressure on you no matter what you do. In such a case, you fold even a pretty good hand, rather than risk being outplayed by a big stack.
Think about what you expect the opponents to do BEFORE you look at your cards. You might find that the best play is clear already. Plus, you can decide in advance what hands you'll fold or raise with, and then when you do look, the play will be immediate and decisive, which is usually a good thing.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You write: "Other times, you have a good stack, but one of the blinds has more, and you know that they are likely to put pressure on you no matter what you do. In such a case, you fold even a pretty good hand, rather than risk being outplayed by a big stack."
The other option with "a pretty good hand", an option which is often better when the blinds are large and those sitting on the blinds have much bigger stacks, is simply to move in with everything. Once you are all-in, they'll throw their cheese away most of the time. If you get unlucky and they have that monster, then that's just tough. A call is most definitely a mistake, even sitting last, because the bigger stacks have so many more options against you on the flop. This lesson came at a very high price to me, late on day 2 last year.
its called choking and we all get it to some extent. in order to win in big anything you have to have a small regard for the outcome. you have to develop that from within. or you can just make big stands at opportune times like most players do and that works ok.
I think choking is too strong. I believe that most of us are too conditioned to the need to avoid putting ourselves in danger. In the end game at tournaments, there is almost always someone who steps forward and gets bold. Half the time, this bold one gets chopped into dogmeat and ends up the next one busted. The other half of the time, his boldness is rewarded when no one plays with him or, he prevails when played with. The timid majority, who studiously avoided any and all chances to play themselves, lament the fact that they "never seem to catch a rush" like our bold protagonist. The simple truth is that you can't get a rush if you don't play any but the biggest starting hands. I've always felt that the boldest at the table had a decided edge. I heard that Ray Zee was bold in ring games; does that hold true in tournaments also?
yes , i was always bold when i used to play tournaments. i did very well and had a superb record. my chips went up from the point when players clammed up trying to get in the money. i learnt my lessions well. i choked a few times and clammed up as well. anted myself to a position where i made my stand with weak hands and didnt like it. i found out quick that people dont want to go broke early or late. so steal their small pots. choking is exactly what it is.
Boldness probably comes naturally to those of us with more optimism than common sense. I've always loved to watch a player agonize in the BB with his pocket 6's after I pushed it all in with any two cards first in from the button. I had a friend ask me what he should do once when he was in the BB in this situation, I looked back at my hole cards, smiled, and told him truthfully that I had one overcard to his pair. He threw his hand away face up and I showed my 8-3o. I tried explaining to him after the tournament that I was betting into his stacksize and the timid way he had been defending his blinds. In the context of what I expected, I was betting that he wouldn't call me with anything other than a big pair or AK and possibly, AQ. It didn't matter what my hand was, since I was betting against his having one of the abovementioned ones in order to call me. He still doesn't understand that my bet had a positive expectation even with it being 8-3o.
its players like you John that make others have to take a chance in order to win.
The secret to NL HE is putting a man to a decision for all his chips. Anyone who doesn't believe that is playing limit poker or losing at NL.
Forget the cards it's the stacks and man that counts.
Well cards help some.
BTW - John - I'll be there for sure next Fri. be looking for NL satellites and tourneys. I really don't care to play ring games when I'm in tourney mode. See you there.
Ray,
There is the added advantage that certain of my playing idiosyncrasies make it much more likely that I will be called by someone when I bet. I take maximum advantage of this by being able to move stronger when I do have the goods in early position. I have claimed for a long time that I earn quite a bit more from my premium hands than most players in tournaments. The main reason for this is that my style of play conditions the table to want to get involved in a hand with me. The less astute lower the threshold of their calling requirements in order to avail themselves of an opportunity to play a hand with me. It is a good thing to be seen as a "maniac" at a tournament table when everyone is trying to zero in on the weakest link to double through on.
I do make others take chances in order to win. Much of the time, by exploiting my "loose" image, I get them to take chances when they have far the worst of it. I've also observed that some players continue to play you the same way even when it should be obvious to them that you've altered your playing style. Not every player can pose as a moron for a sustained period of time. Of course, it may also be that, in my case, it is no pose.
Final table nl tournament 8 players left last hand 200-400blinds ,blinds are going to 400-800 I have 3200 in chips sb only one with smaller stack 2400 every one passes to me I amone off the button holdQd8d bet 1200 small blind goes all in,I threw it away
Now there are 2 $2400 stacks - but you need some kind of holding to steal - Ax Kx maybe - Were the sb and bb known raisers or tighter players?
Your muck was good but don't try a steal again at this table you'll be called for sure.
Reasonable pre-flop play.
SB had a hand - unlucky for you.
Good laydown - unless your opponent was a moron.
"moron". You seem to like that word. Are you really a moron?
You should have called, or never tried to steal in the first place.
You've committed too much of your stack to give up now. After the SB raises, there is T4800 in the pot, with you having T2000 to call. I don't think you can afford to give that up, especially since folding with make you the shortest stack. Folding here makes it highly likely that you won't do any better than 6th or 7th place, with 8th place being your most likely finish. Calling here is probably greater than 50% you'll lose and finish 8th, but a win will move your stack up to T6800, which is plenty with the new 400,800 blinds that are just about to start.
Unless most of the other players had MUCH more than you in chips (say T20,000 and up), then you have enough chips to steal with, since someone with T5,000 - T10,000 doesn't want to risk 30-60% of their stack trying to bust you unless they have a hand. However, stealing is high risk, and you should only do it when you're willing to follow through. Especially if this is your home club's weekly tournament, and you'll be playing with these guys again. You don't want them to know that they have a good shot at beating you by reraising with anything (because you'll fold rather than risk elimination).
Since you have to be prepared to follow through anyway, I would advise just pushing all-in immediately. The last thing you need is someone with A5 trying to resteal from you, you call, and then lose to their A high card (that they would have folded preflop if you'd gone all-in).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Here are two things to think about.
First, it is late in the tournament, so the penalty for you to lose the hand, since you are the shorter stack, is greater than any of your potential opponents.
Second, when it is late in a tournament and you raise with a very short stack, some players when they are in the blind will just call you with anything. This is especially true if they are in very good chip position and you are very short stacked. I don't believe that you are at this point yet, but your opponents may be beginning to think this way. If you believe this is the case, you should be less inclined to play the hand.
Gotta go with your take on this one FossilMan. If I had moved with this hand (and I might have), it would have been all in. But, assuming I found myself in his position after betting T1200 and getting raised another T1200 I'd have to call. When calling, I'd thank my lucky stars that the only one who raised was the player with fewer chips than I. (He can't bust me on this hand)
I can tell you this much, if I'm making a move here with Q8d, I would have to be fairly confident that the remaining players were all weak.
Weak play Hy. Wanna know why Robert H. always gets so "lucky" in the tournaments?
When it gets late and the blinds are high in relation to his stack, he NEVER steal-raises and then folds to a reraise unless it comes from the most predictable of players. In most cases, he takes away the resteal possibility by moving his whole stack in first. You would do well to emulate this style at this stage of the tournament.
Unless I reraise you!
Thanks for the comments.I have come to the conclusion that I should have bet my whole stack or passed.I will be in LaLA land from Dec.1-13 any stud tournaments Thanks Hy
this situation occured to me last week in a nl holdīem tourney:
8 tables at the beginning, final table gets paid. limits raise every 20 minutes. i got a nice stack after 5 limits, but didnīt get a single hand for 2 succesive limits. every time there was a raise in front of me, and the best hand i got was something like Q8s. as the blinds were getting pretty big, my stack got smaller and smaller. now the situation, where iīm not sure, whether it was all right for me to call or not. 17 players left, some of them got small stacks, but there was no way to get down to the final table within one round without winning a pot.i was in the big blind, my stack was 13k, bb 6k, sb 3k. after posting my blind, i got 7k left. a player, whom i know well, raised from first position to a total of 20k. everybody else folded. i knew, that the raiser might raise every pocket pair and every big ace, maybe even a hand like A8 or KJ. i looked down and saw a 65o in my hand. call or not?
If he is coming in UTG, I doubt if it is with A8 or KJ. You didn't say whether there were antes in addition to the blinds. With only 7K left and the 3K sb coming up next, I would be tempted to call here if there were any antes to pick up in addition to the bet, your BB and the SB. If he simply has two overcards without a pair, you aren't in such poor shape and might be able to make significant improvement in your overall chances if you win this confrontation. At least you know that you will only have this one player to beat.
65o is a terrible hand to have to commit with, but this is probably the last hand that you will be able to get enough of a stack in one hand to survive to the money. If you get down to 7K, you might be faced with almost the same situation on the following sb hand with a hand that isn't that much stronger than what you have now.
We often see postings where the decision is a lot more clear cut than this one. I have found myself in situations similar to this one on numerous occasions. I count up the pot, count my remaining chips, look at that darn 65o, say a quick little prayer for divine intervention, and say "I call" in as confident a voice as I can muster. If your opponent has A9c, you are about a 13:7 underdog, and the pot is offering you more than that.
P.S. Please don't share this kind of high level thinking with other tournament players who would rather blind themselves totally out of contention than make a call with their last money with so weak a holding. One of the reasons I hate to make this type of play is that the smarter players see it and make a mental note about how often the "dominated" undercards seem to suck out on the superior raiser's hand. This leads to some of them calling my strong all in raises with nothing but cheese and getting there with it.
This is a tough call I make the call with a Jx but the 65 is so weak. 7K is not much but your still in with a chance - I've went on to win tourneys with less, much less in a similar position. It is NL and you can double up twice and be chip leader from here.
If your holding were better or your chip count was less I go for it but I just want another circuit to see if I can do something with the 7K.
I fold.
Let's see what my friend John did - I have no doubt he called and he may be right too.
you painted yourself into a corner and now do you jump out the window or run thru the new paint and ruin it. dont paint yourself into a corner. unless you just lost the last hand for a large amount of your chips there is no reason that i see to get into this spot. if you are just trying to ante yourself into the money then fold and hope for the impossible. if you were trying to win you couldnt let this happen. what was wrong with the last hand dealt. you would at least win some chips if you got played with and won and would probably win the antes. now you are faced with hoping to win so you can ante 2 more rounds. forget that hand and never do this again.
i doubt, that anybody can help me with this problem, but iīd like to know, wheter there are other players too having this problem.
i play poker for about 3 years, studdied every book i could get, think about the game a great deal, and i think, that in austria iīm one of the better players. ok, itīs true, itīs not very difficult to be one of the better players in austria, but iīve been in vegas and l.a. several times, too, and made some winnings at the orleans and crysal park tourneys, and in 22 major tourney i played in the u.s., i made the final table 5 times, which i think isnīt very bad (although i didnīt win any of the majors, best finnishing was 3rd). but one year ago, a bad run started and i couldīt win a single hand, especially in tourneys. bad times got better after a few months, and iīm consistently winning in cash games again, but in tourneys, almost every time the same problem occurs. i get nice stacks playing rather tight aggressive in the first limits, play more loose and aggressive in the following limits and i usually am out of the tourney or get a pretty nice stack, after 5, 6 or 7 limits. (assuming, that it takes about 10 limits to get to the final table, which is the structure usually played here. a lot of times, i really believe to win the tourney (althout i know that itīs a very, very long road to this goal), because iīm feeling real good, catch good cards, my readings are ok and i donīt get outdrawn. but every time, after this point, when iīm starting to think of possible nice finnishing in the tourney, everything turns. i donīt get a single hand for a very long time, iīm not really sure what to do in several situations, play probably too tight, most of the time i get one single hand after a long time and loose a big pocket-pair against a small pocket-pair (i really wonder how this can occure that often) and suddenly iīm short-stacked and drop out of the tourney one or two places away from the money.
donīt get me wrong, iīm not complaining about a bad run in tourneys, and i donīt think, that the falling of the cards have something to do with my psychological problems. but iīm sure, that an other player than me would make it to the money and maybe even win the tourney, even with the cards i get. but it seems to me, that when i get a big stack, i get a little scared about loosing my stack with a medium hand (e.g. raising all in in nl holdīem with something like Ace high against somebody, who is every time attacking my blind). i didnīt have this problem 2 years ago, but it seems, i canīt get over it.
any message appreciated.
M.A.
Martin,
I don't believe it is a psychological problem at all. My guess is that you are presenting an image of timidity when the tournament gets to the point that favors boldness. If people believe you are less willing to mix it up with them, they naturally will attempt to move on you.
When you get to the 7th and 8th rounds in a tournament, the blinds and antes start eating away at your stack like an omnivorous cancer. You have to find ways to steal your fair share of the blinds and antes just to maintain parity with your opponents. Additionally, you must find a way to increase your stacksize enough to offset the inflationary effect of the increased blinds and antes in the following round. A good rule of thumb for accomplishing this is to attack the smaller, more vulnerable stacks, whenever feasible. If you are going to err during this phase of the tournament, do so on the side of aggression. When some others are pretending to be turtles, hiding inside their protective shells, you should try being a predator, attacking and striking fear into their timid souls.
I hope that this gives you some ideas to try in the next tournaments you enter. I wish you all the best of it.
I went through a run of 11ths a while back and found I was playing to passive when I reach the last two tables. I wasn't making the bigger NL bets and wasn't raising eneough in the limit tourneys. Maybe you need to loosen up - when I did I had a streak of 6 out of 8 final tables.
I have also improved my results since making a conscious effort to "Take Hold of the Flame" at the last 2 tables when everyone tightens up. Sometimes you can just get lucky, outdraw someone, treble up and have enough chips to cruise to the big payoff spots. One second and one 14th is a lot better than two 8ths.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
One word--Atavan
"any message appreciated"
Quit!
Rounder,
I've never played in a satellite before, and I was wondering if you could give me a tip on strategy, or maybe you could recommend a book you like on this topic. I've only played in one small entry-fee tournament at Crystal Park, I finished 4th out of 134 people. And I was thinking of trying one or two of the satellites at the upcoming Crystal Park Senior/junior events. Do you know how much they will cost to enter also?
Thanks for any help, Don
Don,
I'm planning to be there Dec 4,5 &6 - Looking for a Jr. to play the Tag team with.
You can find out from CP card room what they will cost.
Of all the poker formats available I like the NL HE single table satellite the best - I would play them exclusively if I could.
I'd tell you what my record was in them but I would just open myself to nasty comments and I really don't need that right now.
Some reasons I like the one table format -
You are with the same players the whole time and it is possible to get a better feel for the personality of the table.
You get to creat a table image real quick.
Now I czn't give away all my secrets cuz I'm planning to meet Big John there and I'm gonna be a big eneough Dog playing him without telling him my game plan - BUT I tend to play super tight until we are down to 4 or 5 players then open up - If I am at the table with maniacs (which is common) I'll go against them if I can isolate them early. Getting the remaining 3 or 4 players out is a matter of getting some cards at the right time or making big bets in the right position.
A book any NL HE tournament player has to have read more than once is TJ Cloutiers' Championship PL & HL HE TJ is a maverick when it comes to suited cards and pot odds in tournaments. So am I, I guess that is why I like his book so much.
I wish you success in the Seniors hope to see you there.
If you want to e-mail me I can be reached at guzaldo@yahoo.com
Thanks Rounder,
Thanks for all your advice, and I'll go over to Hollywood Park Casino tonight or tomorrow and get the book you recommended, of all the casinos in L.A., they have the biggest selection of poker books.
I think you and Big John would be an incredable team! I wouldn't want to play on a team, because if and when we get killed, I KNOW it would be 100% my fault due to my inexperience. I've never even played no-limit once!
I also want to thank you for answering my thread in the Texas Hold'em Forum titled, "Raising from the Big Blind". You have good common sense, and way of explaining things so anybody can understand your point.
Thanks Again, Don
"I'd tell you what my record was in them but I would just open myself to nasty comments and I really don't need that right now. "
Rounder,
I like you. I think you know that. But this has got to stop. I posted a while ago "This Forum is Tough". Please read it. Poker is tough, you know that. Don't let any of these nay saying, show me types here get under your skin. Give as much as you take and comments made here won't bother you so much. Now would you please win a tournament. Thank you very much.
Vince.
I certainly would never say that you'd be a dog to me in one table satellites. That said, even though I'd be somewhat reluctant to do so, I still might be talked into a last longer bet with you just to sweeten your +EV. Even if I believed you'd play your cards *exactly* as you claim to, which I don't, I doubt I would consider myself a last longer favorite due to my tendency to want to play fast early in a satellite. Be careful Rounder, I tend to have a good memory of what cards an opponent plays and I am not adverse to writing up any hands you might play which depart from your stated criteria. See you at Crystal Park for the Seniors.
Hay John,
Are you and Rounder feuding, or are you just kidding around with him? Cause I'd really like to see you two team-up and clean-up at the Crystal Park events, how'bout it?
Sincerely, Billy D
Billy,
We aren't fueding at all. He and I will probably make the rounds of the LA clubs looking for some soft games to sit in. I've never played any of the tag team events, so wouldn't likely be any help to him there. I would sit on his left in any game I could and see if he can take some betting heat on the flops and turns. He would probably hope to trap me in a giant pot with me pushing all the betting for him. We might wind up both making money in that kind of game.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
There is a Commerce tournament I am interested in on Sat night - don't play Omaha
Me neither Rounder,
Omaha's for Geezers!
Badger (and anyone else),
Given the responses to this post about not playing Omaha, I just wondered to what extent you think that "Tournament Poker is Tournament Poker", i.e. does tournament strategy over-ride the strategy of the particular game (Stud, Hold-Em, Omaha ...) totally ? to a great extent ? 50-50 ? not as much ? And what about limit vs. big-bet ?
The reason I ask is that I am confident at Stud but inexperienced at Hold-Em and have never played Omaha at all. Would I be better honing my Tournament play in the game I know best (and building a bankroll) before playing too much of the other games ?
Thanks,
Andy.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
.
Right! I might be willing to play lowball or NL Hold-em with you Steve, but limit Hold-em and Omaha would be too much of a gift I'm afraid. If I see Terry Jenkins there, maybe I'll put him in the Omaha to give you a little run for the money.
We are playing T500-1000/T100antes six handed. I have T4200 when the hand begins. (2c) brings it in for T200. (Js) completes to T500. I make it T1000. The 2 calls T800 and the J calls T500. I catch the Ks on 4th street and have to lead. I bet the 2 calls and the J raises and I 3bet. I bet again on fifth street both players call with no obvious improvment. The 2 is all in at this point. On 6th street I bet my last T600. The allin player pairs his 2(his door card) to make trips. The J makes 2pair on 7th street to win the side pot. Do you feel my play is correct or should I have waited until fifth street to show my strength? I knew when the low card called my original raise I was in trouble.
Chico,
Do you feel my play is correct or should I have waited until fifth street to show my strength?
Yes to correct and no to wait to fifth street.
You were unlucky because the 2's made it the all in stand hand. And you never improved like Earl say's a pair of A's are awesome on third but by 6th street there looking a little lonely even against a pair of 2's on the board.
paul
Chico,
I play Pot-Limit stud tournaments rather than limit but when the bets get as high as that I don't think there is much difference. I would have played it exactly the same as you up to 5th. Maybe on 6th you could have checked with your last 600 as surely the J is not going to fold at this point and you might be able to fight again (chip and a chair) if you lose the hand. Of course if you check and he bets you just have to throw it in. At this stage with (presumably) one of the shorter stacks I don't slow-play anything not even trips rolled up.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
One aspect of the tourney that you didn't mention is the time factor. I'm guessing that this is a typical 20-minute fast action tourney.
Several interrelated but obvious aspects make this one of the toughest 7-stud tourney situations. It is clear to YOU that you have the best hand at the start -- it is not clear to your OPPONENTS. Ironically, your buried Aces cause your opponents to gamble with you. In a cash game, you wouldn't mind them gambling with you -- in the latter stages of a tourney, you should be happy just to win the antes.
The man with the doorcard deuce not only has a pair, but he's almost all-in. An almost all-in player will take you to the river. Headsup with the deuces, you'd be about a 2-1 favorite. However, when you get early raised then called also by the likely pair of Jacks, you are no longer favored to win the hand (47%, 22%, 31%).
In the last 15 years, I've played a lot of these chickenfeed stud tournaments. I win about 10% of the time. I also lose at the second table, shy of the money, about 50% of the time -- usually in scenarios similar to what you describe here. So I've also been reevaluating this situation. Here are my thoughts.
When your opponents will not throw away their hands, one of your ways of winning has obviously went away. Once you commit too much money, then you are strapped onto the hand. In a tourney, I'm beginning to believe that it may be better not to raise with big pairs once another player has backed into the pot. In their 7-stud book, the 2+2 authors talk about some situations where you would not want to raise or reraise with these bigger pairs. I'd advise you to read those sections and consider the applicability.
Your chip-to-bet ratio is somewhat similar to the late stages of super-satellite play, where there are times when you should just sit on your hands. Maybe the toughest play in poker is when you give an aggressive player a big pair and expect him not to play the hand at all. You didn't give us the stack sizes and playing tendencies of your opponents, but this would impact how/when I would play the hand.
Thus, your 3rd street reraise was perfect. It was your best chance to win the hand right there. But when that failed, it's obvious you are going to have two customers the rest of the way. On 4th street, I think you should check and call until someone shows more obvious strength. Again on 5th street. I would not throw away the hand, but I would not overcommit. The idea is that you want to play one more hand if you get this one popped. And I would not go all-in on 6th street.
Does anybody know if you can get trmnt schedules for in and around L.A., or anywhere else, off the internet?
You could try the Card Player Magazine link in the "Favorite Links" section in this site.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
Hi everyone,
As Earl points out in a post below, there are times in a Tournament when you want everyone to fold even when you are pretty sure you have the best hand. And of course if you're semi-bluffing or even totally bluffing you want them to fold even more. What I have tended to do at times is, say if I bet the pot with (K7)K in a pot-limit Stud tournament with two tables left and antes high, and everyone folds, I show the Kings if I think anyone didn't believe me. I have a tight image (very helpful in this pot) so most people think "Ha ! Just as I suspected". The guy with (7A)7 congratulates himself on his fold. It is a matter of opinion whether this fold is correct, but you bet I want him to drop them.
So, does anyone else do this ? Or do you have a reason why not ? Am I giving up too much information to the better players which will help them read me ?
Comments welcome,
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
This was a common tactic in the mid-1980s in Vegas. I learned it from a buddy of mine, the late Frank Hunter. His idea was that late in stud tourneys when the antes are high and you have a hand such as Aces or Kings, you should raise all-in and expose the hand. It has been outlawed at most major tournaments in the U.S. for many years. The ruling is that you have a dead hand if exposed to another player before action on the hand is complete. If it's legal where you play, I'd advise using it when appropriate. I agree with your analysis of how to use it -- two Kings against a smaller pair and an Ace overcard are less than 3-2 favorite and these are precisely the situations that destroy a good player late in a stud tourney.
Earl,
Thanks for your comments (and thanks to everyone who responded). If I didn't make myself clear, what I am referring to is showing the cards after everyone has folded and the pot is over. I've never seen anyone show their cards while an opponent is pondering a call and suspect it is probably illegal (and definitely unethical).
Andy.
Andy,
In NL Hold-em when it gets to the late stages and at the final table, I often show big hole cards such as QQ, KK and AA when I get no takers for my opening raises. I reason that the hands made me a little money but that, by displaying them, they might make me a little more somewhere down the road when I make a move with considerably less. It never hurts to reinforce the belief in your opponents that they were correct in not calling you. By the same token, I'll only show a single A if I made an uncalled raise from the button first in or from the SB first in. Other players seem to like to show a lone ace from a lot of different positions and I always make a mental note that they play weak aces out of position. This has helped me many times when I had a hard decision to make on whether or not to make a call.
the problem with showing any part of your hand is that the really good players will learn to get a feel for when you have a good hand. then they will destroy you. this may work against bad players but dont do it if any good players are at the table.
Those cheap little tourneys don't last long enough to worry a whole lot about that. Once you are in the crapshoot stage, you don't care about image. The good players as well as the bad players are on very thin ice and they just want to win the next hand they play.
Since I am not readable HA HA - I will show my cards once and a while - when I have a successful bluff - which I don't do eneough - I never show it on purpose but will "accidently" expose it cuz I will not do it again for a while and want to trap someone into believeing I may be bluffing.
Question - I have a habbit of laying down my cards face up on an all in bet. Final table style. Since there won't be anymore betting in this hand I feel it is ok for me to do it.
Can any of you see a problem with this.
There are 2 potential problems, although both are probably relatively minor.
First, it can help those opponents get a line on your play, and maybe even pick up some tells. By comparing your demeanor when you bet to the cards they see you expose, they might get better at playing you in the future.
Second, if you make a mistake, and expose your hand too soon (some guy is still thinking about calling, but you didn't see his hand), it may be ruled dead or some other penalty imposed on you. If you wait until the dealer tells you to show your hand, that can't happen.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg I do wait until it is time to turn them over.
But I was thinking why not in this situation cuz the betting is over and I like it when others do it.
A lot of players are reluctant to do this and NEVER show cards unless they have to - I just don't think it is such a bad idea in some circumstances.
Rounder,
I used to do it also. Problem is that other players didn't follow suit. I now wait for the other player to agree to open before I do so. Remember that there is a wealth of information contained in the starting hands that you expose.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Badger,
You know this happened to me at the WSOP sat. - I was on QQ and called an all in bet by a guy trying to bully the table. I turned over after asking the dealer if it was heads up. Flop came with a Q and the bully mucked his got up and walked away with out looking back.
I never know what he had and didn't really care.
I'm home from Arizona (on my monthy visit) and the Kids were in from college. Nick freshman @ Purdue a computer science major and math wiz and Michelle Jr @ Ind. State pre med. Michelle wants me to take her to Vegas for her 21st b-day - gee I wonder if that is a good idea. We had leg of lamb.
Maybe I'll fly her out to the Sr tournament. We could play the tag team together. She is no poker player (yet) but has good card instincts.
Eneough soppy stuff - back to poker!
When I read the banner to your post - "Had a great T day" - thought you meant - "Had a Great "T"ournament Day" - (it was under the tournament section) - looking forward to reading about a nice little score - instead I get The Waltons. Leg of lamb?
Nonetheless, I was touched. Maybe Nick can do my taxes and Michelle can diagnose my poor play - I'm convinced its roots are medical - just give me a pill and no more loose calls.
Merry X-Mas.
Rounder, glad to hear you had some happy times away from the table. I occasionally go to Vegas wioth my son who knows sports pretty good and can keep ahead of the game. Question about TTH which arrived a few days ago. I am getting good rating on when to play but not so good on how to play. Think I am too aggressive on turn and river. Do you mostly use pot odds to decide what to do?
Dave,
Don't pay too much attention to the advice given by this (or any) computer software. Although TTH is a well-written program, there are too many factors that are not taken into consideration. For instance, when considering how a computer player reacts to a raise, it does not factor in the position of the raiser or the standards (loose, tight ?) of the raiser.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
I am a bit unorthodox on the turn and river.
In ring games I tend not to be in a hand past the flop unless I have a really good chance of winning. Since I play the card ranks and don't play suited cards (for that reason only) and rarely am I on one or more gappers I am usually not looking for a draw out of position (button or one off) - so if I don't flop to my hole cards I am out of there. Pot or no pot odds.
I will dump losers when I know I can't win with them regardless of the size of the pot.
Hope this answers your question.
When you get paid in lammers what can you do with them?
Use them in tourneys or sell them to players who are waiting in line to buy in for cash.
We are 1/2 way through the first 40-minute round after the rebut period of a no-limit tournament with 50 entrants. I have a stack of 1350, which is slightly above average. I view this stage of the tournament as the time to accumulate chips as many players tighten down and don't want to bust out early.
The blinds are 25/50 and I am in the big blind with Kd9d. A loose-passive type limps in early position. A weak-tight and an aggressive player limp behind him. The small blind calls and I rap for a five-handed flop of:
2c3d6d, giving me two ovecards and a big flush draw.
The small blind, an aggressive, but sensible player with a stack of 700 bets out 300. I quickly move all-in. Here are some of my thoughts:
1) The small blind probably has a decent, but vulnerable hand since he bet out instead of goig for a check-raise. He seems to have left himself enough chips to get off the hand. I put him on something like a six with a decent kicker, or even a pair with a straight draw. An overpair is unlikely as he is the type that would have moved in pre-flop to pick up the pot with a medium pair.
2) Nobody behind me should like this flop much. And again, I don't give any of them a big pocket pair.
3) None of the players behind me will call for most of their chips with a flush draw or straight draw at this stage.
Taking this into account, I concluded that I only had to fear a big made hand from the SB. If he had a big made hand and called, I probably had at least the 9 flush outs. I could have as many as 15 if he made a tougher call. Ideally, he would fold a small pair and I could pick up 550 in chips, increasing my stack by 40% without having to show down a winner. This is always a welocme opportunity.
Comments on this rationale?
Not to bias the results, but my read was correct, the small blind made a tough call with 64 (top pair and a gut shot), and I lost anyway. To add insult to injury, I hit my King, but he redrew a 4 to beat me.
I know this guy and he told me afterward that he felt pot-committed with only 400 left in chips. He questioned my move on this basis. With his hand, I would have moved all-in firts if he realy felt that way.
M7,
you have to take into account him having an amount that can make him pot stuck when you move all in. its a bad play on his part not to have moved all in in front of you. then would you have called. you made the right play and lost. given you knew he was weak.
In this situation you only had one way to win which is to hit the flush or a overpair witout him improving. You could not win by him folding when you went all-in because he was in fact pot-committed. I would have folded because it is not worth it to go for the draw. If he checked the flop then I check. Let him give me a free draw at the flush. But the way I play I fold as soon as he bets. I have learned my lesson the hard way with playing draw hands even with overcards in no-limit. Either I play them for free or very cheap else I throw it away.
Good play? Bad play? Close call, methinks.
Of course, if they all fold and you stack the chips, it's a good play. I've often wondered about how good many of the "good plays" that I've made would have looked if I'd been called.
I don't remember where I got this, but "Never get yourself broke in an unraised pot" always flashes for me in these situations. Strange things can happen. I flopped trips once with BB 8-7 and a flop of 8-8-9. SB checks, I push in (way overbetting the pot). Turns out that the only guy at the table who can bust me has Q-8, and of course calls, kicker plays. (Now, just what possesed this otherwise fairly rational player to pre-flop call UTG with Q-8 still escapes me.)
Comments on your rationale. Points (2) and (3) are probably valid. Point (1) however. . ."vulnerable hand...bet out instead of...check-raise" doesn't follow, at least not if you're playing against me. Good players (and I also) lead with their monsters, garden variety pairs and over-pairs, as well as with puffs of smoke. Sure I check-and-raise, but only enough so as you know it. (Be truly afraid if check-and-call, however.)
Regardless of this, he probably does have a "decent but vulnerable hand" here, because he "left himself enough chips to get away". But did he? He made a tough call. Was it also a long call (deep think)? I see this in every tournament. A player "leaves himself enough chips to get away from his hand", and then calls when he is moved on - every single time! What happened, of course, is that he hadn't thought it through. "I'll just bet half may stack in case - oh, sh*t, he raised - damn it, if I fold, I'm crippled - that's a pretty nice pot all of a sudden though - hmmm, what can I beat?" So he winds up calling, when he probably would have won uncontesed by moving in.
The way I like to consider the problem of raising as an underdog if called is "What are the chances of the other guy folding, and what do they need to be?" My rule of thumb in this case might be 1 in 3. In other words, if the chances are 1 in 3 that I will win with a bet with this many (probable) outs, the overlay is too big not to pass up. So the question for me would become whether the chances of SB folding are better than 1 in 3. And, based on the "calling reflex" syndrome I described above, I would guess not. I betcha he's calling every time.
Therefore, thusly, and so forth, my choice is to pass.
dangerous dan
--------------------------------
but I kept ya' guessing, no ?:-)
I don't remember where I got this, but "Never get yourself broke in an unraised pot".
Could have been Super/System. Doyle makes a clear point using almost those exact words. I expect I am preaching to the converted but the No-Limit section of this book is top stuff.
Andy.
I think this concept is much more relevant for a ring game than a tournament. With escalating blinds, you will eventually have to put your money in an "unraised" pot in much worse situations than this one. See RZ's coments below.
That being said, I would have made this same move in a ring game in a heartbeat if my stack was the same relative to the money in the pot.
Michael,
There is a phenomenon that isn't discussed much in the literature of NL tournament play. I think of it as the "Snack/Dinner/Feast Phenomenon".
Basically, there are some chips in the center of the pot that you look at and think "those chips would sure look good added to my stack." You bet just enough to show the others that you think the pot is yours, but not so much that you are totally committed in case some other player decides he deserves the pot more than you. At this stage, the pot is just a snack, a nice addition to your stack, but not really enough to risk your whole tournament for.
Once you've made your bet, some other player looks at that same pot that you bet into and, now that your bet is added to it, it looks like a seven course dinner to him. Your bet has made the pot ever so enticing to him and he can't resist making an all or nothing play at it with his entire stack.
Back to you. The pot is now huge compared to what you have left. It has now become a veritable feast to you. Any thought you might have had about leaving yourself some wiggle room in the event someone put serious heat on has vanished. The chips you have left seem dwarfed by the towering mound in the center of the felt. Of course you will commit these last few chips to win this pivotal pot.
Your hand is the same as it was when you first bet, but the odds the pot is now laying you make it seem stronger. When you bet the first time you thought you were probably in front. The all in bettor is saying you are probably behind. The pot is telling you that there is enough in there to make whatever possibilities your hand might hold enough to justify committing the rest of your stack to.
The funny thing about all this is that your opponent probably wouldn't have moved all in if you hadn't put enough of a bet in to trigger his desire for the pot. If you had moved all in with that first bet, he probably wouldn't have called. It was the precise combination of enough in the pot plus his feeling that you weren't yet totally committed that made him push all in.
Afterwards, no matter how the hand turns out, each player will have a reasonable justification for the decision that cost one of them any chance at cashing in that tournament. Once you start thinking about this phenomenon, you can use it to better understand the dynamics of setting and avoiding common trap plays in NL. In most cases taking a pot with substantial chips in it without having to see a flop is to be preferred. It is probably best to avoid getting into situations, with less than premium hands, where a confrontation to the river is almost certain due to the nature of the piecemeal betting.
So John you saying you get all in on the K9 - in the BB actually - It is a play I prefer to just calling here since we have all limpers.
I probably put in $100 raise and see what happens.
Just calling in NL limit is not my style unless I'm setting a trap and I still make a raise here.
No future in NL for calling.
I was commenting on why people who leave wiggle room with their first bet often go ahead and call a raise anyway. Sometimes, even with the very best of players, the initial step they take to keep their options open leads to their having to make another, harder decision. It is the process of failing to commit initially that leads to the necessity of overcommitting later. In NL, if I've got T700 after the last rebuy period, there is no way that I'm putting T300 in a pot that I wouldn't be willing to call a T400 raise. Since this is true, and since I'd almost always prefer to win without having a flop, I'd almost always put it all in with my initial bet. If I did bet T300, it would be because I was trying to set a trap. If I was setting a trap, the big blind would be T100 and I'd be making a standard raise, first in, for that blind level.
I just hate to put all my chips in against several players when I am holding nothing. That is the problem with letting the suited portion of your hole cards weigh to heavily on your decision to play a hand in a NL HE tourney.
I muck here cuz I can't beat a pair of 2's and if I'm going broke it is with something besides a speculative hand.
Good points, all. I was playing the player more than I was playing my cards and therefore, made a crucial mistake since he didn't fold. It is a rare event that I get enough good hands in a tournament to build a sufficient stack, so instead I try to find situations like these wher I can put the presseur on a short stack and make it damn near impssible for a larger stack to overcall or outplay me.
BTW Rounder, I got a free play in the BB with the K9s. I otherwise wouldn't have seen the flop. But once I saw the flop, you are correct that I let my "suitedness" trap me. But my hand's "bigness" related to the board also factored into my decision.
Mike,
Funny thing is in a NL hand on the BB with limpers I probably make a raise here to - say $125 - watch them fold then on the flop I'm in control if I didn't win it right there. With that flop you can bet all or a few hundred and win it cus the raise set up your hand.
Would the 64 have taken the a 100 raise here pre flop?
I think you win it right here.
you cant fold this hand. you are getting about 1000 to 700 and it looks like an even money bet here to me. you will most times have either 9,12, or 15 outs. plus you have the real chance he will fold for your raise. it happens all the time. what are you going to wait for? in tournaments the blinds go up too fast to sit around and fold positive hands waiting for a monster.
Hi folks, especailly Fossilman,
I just returned from my trip to Madison, Wi where I spent the Holidays with my son. We went to Indiana and played some poker on Friday and saturday. Fancy that! I will tell you that while ther I watched a Pot Limit 7 card stud game. There was one fellow in the game that for the 2+ hours I watched did not miss playing a hand. Anyone out there want to give me some pot limit instruction. I wanna go back!
Anyway on the way back I stopped off at Foxwoods to get some info on the tournament that began today. Well as fate would have it there was a $64 Holdem One Table Satelite beginning and I got a seat. The one seat to be exact. Now I poke a lot of fun at fossil but I have never met him so I may be wrong here. Sitting in the 2 seat was a gentleman that had just gotten knocked out of the Days main tournament. I think it was limit holdem. Anyway he had in front of him, what appeared to be three fossilized objects. One was a piece of amber with insects entombed within. The others looked like clam shells of some sort. Was that you Fossilman. Well we were at the 50-100 level when I was in the SB with A,Jo and it was passed to me and I raised the BB. The BB reraised and I called. I had T400 and the BB had T425. The flop came J,J,x. I checked and called. Check raised the turn and managed to get all in. A blank came on the river and I won and left the BB with T25 which he promptly lossed on the next hand with A,To in the BB. This very polite gentleman did not utter a dispargaing remar but simply stood up and went on his way. I yelled to him as he left to ask if he were the Fossilman but he apparently did not hear me and kept going. In the middle of a satellite with good chip position I was totally concentrating on my play.
O.K. So here goes. Who set me up! Earlier in play I had T,T in the blind and had jus called when 6 callers limped in. The flop brought K,x,x and a couple of raises and I safely folded my Tens. Later just prior to whipping up on the BB I picked up 9,9 in late position. There was an early caller. A mid position, very tight, player raised and a player before me called the raise cold. I, correctly I believe, mucked. The Raiser won the hand with pocket Queens against the cold callers pocket sevens (who put all his chips in raising the flop and betting the turn and river, go figure). Now, after I knock out the guy I think is Fossil I'm feeling pretty good. The rest of the field is not very strong. Two very weak players are on my left. Yup, that's where it's going to these two players. We go to the 100-200 level. I'm in the SB again. Js,Ts. Passed to me. I just call. The BB raises. I seriously consider folding but becauses he is weak I call. The flop. T,T,6 rainbow. I check the flop. He bets. I call. Turn check raise the 8d putting 2 diamonds on board. River brings a third diamond and I foolishly bet and lost to the A,7d. Now I have T275 left. Button hand Kd,Jd. Passed to me. I raise my 2 weak opponents who are now in the blinds. SB folds. BB calls. Flop 8h,6h,4d. BB checks and calls my bet. Kc on the turn. SB bets! I raise all in. The river 5s. The BB turns over Ac,7s(that's seven) and I am left blaming myself for not plaing aggressively with my set of tens.
That will teach me to mess with the Fossilman or someone that I think is him!
Vince.
That was definitely FossilMan (if he was a rather large gentleman). I'll be in Foxwoods next weekend. Hope to see you there. No distinguishing characteristics for me, except that I am fairly young and good looking. At least that is what my Mom tells me.
Bad breaks in the satellitte. You might have played the three tenns faster as it seemed like there was already a pretty big pot given the preflop raise.
I see you finally met/got Fossilman.
P.S. do you know how many players entered the event? Thanks.
Vince,
I must not have heard you, as I wouldn't ignore someone, just because they outflopped me.
I also obviously didn't know it was you, but that almost certainly was me. On Tuesday I played the main event, $330 limit HE, and busted out at the 4th table. I then played 1 or 2 sats before going home. If I recall correctly, I had QQ on the hand you describe.
Be sure to yell louder next time, and I (might) shake your hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well, I finally met Vince Sunday. Nice guy, but lives up to his reputation for inanity (sorry Vince, you'll have to use a dictionary on that one).
After discussing the hand in question and refreshing my memory, I had AK, and enough doubt about his hand to merit calling him down.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"I had AK, and enough doubt about his hand to merit calling him down."
God, I must be really good at being "inane". Interesting how "Fools" sometimes create great doubt in cerebral types.
Vince.
Vince,
Please don't let out our "little secret". Most players don't appreciate the value of creating doubt in the minds of opponents. If I possess any two advantages in poker, first would be my ability to create doubt and second would be the tendency opponents have to want to get into hands against me. Sometimes, when at a full table, I look around and every single player in the game is eyeing my stack. In a tournament, I once had a player from another table come over and ask me to count down my stack for him. At times I feel like checking the sides of my neck to see if I really do have gills.
Vince,
There is a bright side. Both fools and great players are the toughest to put on a hand. Since I haven't played with you enough to know which you are, there is still hope that you're not in the fool category.
Of course, false hopes sink ships. Let's hope there are no real leaks in your boat. ;-)
Let me know when you're next in town. Maybe we'll have time to talk about things aside from poker. I'd be interested.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Finished 5th in a 7CS tournament. A couple hands stood out:
1st hand 200-400 25$ ante 50$ bring in I have about 4000 in chips. It is a big tournament (>200 players) and there is lots of $$ out so I am by no means the leader. About 24 players left. If I just fold everything I can coast into the $$ (last two tables). If I get foolish and get into a big confrontation it is not inconceivable that I could be out of the $$.
On 3rd I get dealt (AhAs)Qs. Aces, queens, and spades are totally live! The bring in is on my left (4h) and bets 50. Player with a Kh calls, then another with a Kd raises. Now think about it, avoiding confrontations is one thing, but passing up an opportunity to become the possible chip leader is another. It never even crossed my mind to NOT play this hand! The perfect opportunity for the perfect hand. I reraised without even blinking. The bring-in cold called two bets (to my surprise). The king limper folded, and the 1st raiser called. I am thinking the bring in could be rolled up, but he is a very loose player, has lots of chips, and ALWAYS chases flushes no matter what. I think he would call with a big three flush or hidden high pair. I can't assume he's rolled until he shows some strength.
4th: I catch 8s giving me a three flush and hidden aces (sweet). king catches Js so one spade is dead (big deal). bring in catches Jh. Checked to me, I bet. Both players call.
5th: I catch the Ks, which is a great card for me. Now I have a four flush plus I know his kings are dead. Kings catches a blank (7c) and bring in catches 2c. Again they check to me and I bet. I'm pretty sure bring in is on a flush draw and king probably has kings or kings up. I am not assured of victory but I am comfortable with my position, for now. Again I bet and both call.
6th: Both my opponents catch total bricks (to my delight). I catch 8c for two pair. I'm also thinking dead man's hand, I'm going to get rivered! (Just kidding). Aces up and a very live AKQ high four flush going into the river is just fine with me. the aces up is a little insurance for me against the possible kings up if I don't fill my flush. If bring in is on a flush draw I hope we both get there since mine will be higher! We've gotten this far and he hasn't raised so I don't think he's rolled. Again I bet and they both call. My hidden ace makes my hand even more valuable. I think the bring in must have the Ah and thinking his flush will beat mine if it hits.
7th: I fill my flush with the 2s. I bet and both call. The flush draw got there, sure enough Ah9h in the hole. Not enough to beat mine though. To my surprise, the other player had (JJ)K and caught trips when the jack hit on 4th and never filled. He was lower on chips so perhaps that is why he never raised me on 4th. (this hand put him almost out).
2nd hand, the one I got knocked out on. 2000-4000 level I have about 4 big bets left. 5 players. The ante is huge so stealing is a good move if you pull it off.
I have (3sAs)3d on 3rd. Spades and pair cards are live barring the 2s. bring in is a duece to to my left. All fold to me. there is a seven standing between me and the steal, but he seems to be getting ready to fold. I decide to try the steal and complete the bet to 2000. Bring-in calls, heads up.
4th I catch Ad for aces up while my opponent catches Kh. I bet and he raises me. I reraise and he calls. He could be rolled but more likely he stills thinks I am trying to steal, since I was in a steal position....
5th I catch a blank he catches 7c. I bet, he calls.
6th I catch a blank he catches another 7. He checks, I bet, he calls.
7th I catch a blank. He bets out, I go all in and call him (he is close to all-in). He has aces in the hole and his aces and sevens beats my aces and threes. What do you know, I caught the case ace! Probably any other card I would not have played the hand, but you never know what will happen in poker! Oh well, I was happy with 5th since the $$ was still pretty good.
Comments welcome.
Dave in Cali
Dave,
I think your play of both these hands is fine. Five-handed, I think you can forget about someone being rolled-up it's so unlikely, while there must be many hands smaller than Aces in the box which he can play against you so it's just bad luck that you went out.
Regarding a couple of comments you make :
"About 24 players left. If I just fold everything I can coast into the $$ (last two tables). If I get foolish and get into a big confrontation it is not inconceivable that I could be out of the $$".
It is true that sometimes you want to avoid a big confrontation but most people take this too far. I will only be thinking this way if I can "coast" (with a bit of ante stealing) into the last 4 places where the money is. To do this I would need around 50% more than what the average stack at the final table will be - i.e. around 15% of the total chips in play. With less than that, definitely with less than 10% of the total chips, I am perfectly happy to put it all in when I have the best of it.
"I was happy with 5th since the $$ was still pretty good". I think you mean that when the dust settles, this is a good result in a big tournament - which it is. But, to remind everyone, I don't believe that thinking "I'll be happy with 5th" is maximizing your EV during the tournament. If you're not pushing hard to at least get heads-up then you're giving up too much to those who are. I think I said in a previous post, a 2nd and a 14th is better than 8th twice. In fact, with most payout structures, a 2nd and three 14ths is better than 8th four times.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
Dave,
If there is someone out there in the ether that could have played these hands better than you did he's not a poster on this forum.
Good showing!
How about getting a little luckier next time!
Vince.
f
Hi all.
I have doing quite well in local 3-6 and 4-8 hold em games thanks to advice from Lee Jones, DS, MM, and all on this board.
This Thursday night I will be headed out for my first hold em tournament. I do plan on taking tournament quite seriously as my playing career progresses, but in the mean time I haven't done much reading, study, or thinking about the subject. A friend and I are just out looking for a good time with out having to risk any real $. IT is a $15 buy-in/$10 entry fee that usually gets around 100 players.
Any advice would be appreciated. Like I said I do plan on ordering some books eventually but in the mean time could use some very quick pointers. I have read in A Alverez and A Holden that there are two theories. One to gamble a bit in the beginning by playing looser and trying to get the lead. The other to play even tighter than usual (if this is possible) and let the other players knock each other out. This is the strategy that I plan on employing. I'm sure others here will recommend the same. Any further advise than just that, the very basics, would be great.
Thank you and I will check back and ask questions on the advise as well as post a result post if anyone is interested.
Pocket Aces to All.
Is the tournament limit or NL?
I have given this advice to a lot of new tournament players and most who follow it usually do very well.
Now you need some cards to begin with - tournaments always need run of the cards to win.
For $15 buy in there will be a lot of real loose players trying to score early - don't fall for the trap. Play the first 3 or 4 rounds tight as possible. Only get in with the best of it and muck all drawing and out of position crap hands like KT UTG for get the TJ suited for now OK unless you are BB and see flop for free so to speak. Only stay in if you plop to it big time. I am serious - play the 1st hour like Mr. Rock.
The game changes a lot after the 1st 4 rounds or the break. Idiots are out and your down to about 1/2 to 1/3 of the original starters - dead money is out.
After the 1st 3 or 4 rounds the blinds are up and you have a good tight table image now it is time to loosen up - early stay tight later position raise if your in. Pop the blinds if they look weak - it's about stealing blinds and winning a "few pots" to get into the money.
Remember a lot of idiots play in tournaments and they play like idiots cuz it's just $15 - well with an attitude like that they will never be consistant winners.
I had a guy call a big bet of mine the other day at the final table of a tournament and he said he'd never call that bet if it were for real money - what a stupid remark - IT was for real money.
I wish you success, and I am interested in the result.
The tourney is a litmit tourney. From the phone I can't seem to gather more information.
But thanks a ton for the advise, I am printing it out now and will read it a dozen times before I play. You also posted a response to me about tourney books that you recomend a while back. If I enjoy myself tommorow, I will but those books on order.
Poket Aces to you and all!
Hey even if you don't do well make sure you get the books - if not to improve your own play it is an insight into the mentality of the opposition.
Limit poker tournaments should be played like NL except a bit looser since you can't go broke on the 1st hand.
at getting some precious money..
If the BB is coming up and it is $500 and you have close to $1000, look for a reasonable chance to raise all-in with something good heads up.. as the number of people wind down, GENERALLY when a short stack goes all in (or virtually all-in), one of the higher stacks will "volunteer" to try and knock you out, and once your bet is called/reraised, he will likely get you heads up. A4 offsuit may not be a monster hand, but it's likely the best chance you may have.
M.
An area of interest to me in both ring games and tournaments is getting people to call your large bets. Obviously, this applies more to no-limit (given the size of the potential bets) than to limit poker.
I am interested in both the strategic play (slowplaying for example) and the psychology (mostly tells) that people have observed to get these calls.
Let me start off by saying that I think most calls of big bets are set up by two different circumstances. First, a player with a great hand bets into a good hand and the good hand calls. Second, a player with a great hand traps a good player into making a big bet. In tournaments (and occasionally in ring games) players also become tied to the pot--that is, they have invested so much they cannot fold and hope to stay alive.
EXAMPLE HANDS (1)NL HE Tourney. I'm in the SB with 10/10. One limper, Middle raiser (doubles the blind), I call, BB folds, limper calls. Flop comes a rainbow of 10-9-2. Limper checks, Middle raiser bets the size of the pot. I pause, and raise all-in. Limper folds. Raiser calls.
What could he have? Two pair, higher pocket pair, other trips, straight draw? Turns out he has pocket nines and is drawing to a one card out. An example of two big hands clashing.
(2) NL HE Tourney. Middle position I pick up pocket queens. Folded to me, I bet double the blinds. Everyone folds to the BB who calls. Flop comes 2-3-6. BB checks. I move all-in. BB calls (uh-oh). He turns over 4-5 and doubles through me. He trapped me with his check on his made straight (he also got a great flop -- it happens).
Related to this whole discussion is table image. For example, I played in a NL HE ring game where a deep-pocket player kept calling my big bets -- he lost over 300 to me in about 20 minutes. Initially he was in the "I don't want to be bluffed mode," but after he got stung a few times he went into the "Uh-Oh, he's got the nuts again mode." Obviously this isn't tourney play (he kept getting another rack), but the same thing definitely happens in tourney's.
Sklansky has a great section on inducing bluffs in the TOP and I think that has a great deal of value when you have a big hand in tourney play. What are other people's thoughts on getting these NL calls, especially when you have a tight image?
That is easy. It depends on your opponent and the personality of the game.
I'll give 2 NL HE examples. I'm in bb with AA - blinds 25-50 4 limp to me. I know UTG was wanting to raise cuz I saw him loading up - I made it $100 he was all in so fast it was a blur. Folded to me and I pushed in. and double up.
He had AK and was drawing pretty dead.
I'm UTG with 77 blinds 30-60 I call - 4 or 5 callers all aggressive and no raise so I know there is no big hands out there. Flop is K J 7 I check knowing any pair is all in and I get 2 all in bets. I triple up.
So I guess the trick to getting calls is two fold.
You have to set up the trap pre flop and on the flop also you have to know your opposition.
Down from 63 to 12 players in a multi-rebuy tournament. The payoff is the top 9 players. Payoff is meaningless until we reach position 3. Average chips is $9,000. The blinds are 500-1000. Seat 6 goes all in with $8500. The person does raise all in at least 3 times per 2 rounds. I occupy seat 8. I have A-Qo in the small blind with $8000. I threw my hand away. And finished 5th place. Would you have called the all-in bet with A-Qo?
What you failed to mention, but can be deduced, is that you are down to 2 short-handed tables. In that scenario, being raised by an aggressive late-position raiser, A-Q offsuit is a very big hand.
A good player short-handed might slowplay the really big hands -- the only ones that make you a big underdog(A-A, K-K, A-K). Thus a call would not be out of line, but note that you are not much better than a 2-1 favorite, even if he has something as bad as 7-2 offsuit (of course if he has a small pair, it is an even-money proposition).
In practical terms, you are going to report to the rail one out of 3 times, so YOU have to make the decision whether or not it is worth it. If the question is, are you beat? Unlikely.
A tighter player no but if you make this guy loose you call. It is up to your read of him.
I go IN on a loose player short handed AQ is a quality hand.
I think I agree with Rounder here (we see things more eye-to-eye on tourney startegy). Here are some things to consider about your AQ.
AQ vs. random trash hand is 2 to 1 favorite AQ vs. JT (or two lower connectors) is about 9 to 5 fav AQ vs. Kx is about 8 or 9 to 5 favorite, depending on x AQ vs Ax or Qx is 3 to 1 favorite (your best hope) AQ vs. pocket pair under Queens s 11 to 10 dog AQ vs. QQ is 2.3 to 1 dog AQ vs. AA is your only nightmare at about 10 to 1 dog
Given that you still need to build your stack in order to get the money, I would call here as a probable favorite and hope he has Ax or KQ.
Because at this stage of the tournament, unless people are allowing you to rob the blinds at will, most of your all-in, stack-building coups are going to be very even match-ups like pocket pair vs. overcards or Ax vs. KQ. When you consider that this player is pretty loose and weight the match-up odds above, you probably have the best of it.
Call, but don't cry about a bad beat if he takes you down with 75o. You aren't that far ahead of anything.
Thank you for your response. I thought about calling for a while thinking I was probably at even money, but like TJ Cloutier is saying "walking back to Houston with AK" and/or Chuck Thompson at the final table of the World Series saying "I will not go loose my entire stack on AQ" and he did because AQ is so strong a hand when playing shorthanded.
Just the hand before I called someone all in with my AK and won. The player on my left the big blind said she had AQ and had a lot more chips than me and throw her hand away. She would have lost. But I beleive she did the right thing against 2 players all in.
The bottom line is I agree with your decision. I should have called because finishing in 5th position for $300. is nothing compare to have a better chance of winning 1st place for >$4000. You just can't win by being a whimp when playing NLH.
The second day of the World Series I called someone who made it 4 times the Big Blind and thought he must have KK's. I am on the big Blind with AJ suited. I called hoping to catch good enough to double my stack. I was just a bit below average. The call was questionable. But this player was a frequent blind stealer. The flop is AJQ. I check, he bets and I go all in . He called and flopped 3 Queens. And on the river comes another Jacks. WOW!!! I just died.
I beleive I should have gone all in against a heads-up player. What I am not sure about is - How would I have played it in the World Series?
I'm playing in a Casino I don't play in much - it's a re-buy tournament and about an hour into it the 5 seat is broke and the seat is empty. The empty seat gets delt to - I said to the dealer what give he said she is going to the ATM for money so she can rebuy. I couldn't believe it. I asked for a floor to make this call and he said she has one hand to get back. I got criticized cuz for asking for the floor - slowing down the game.
Am I wrong - I have never seen this before - has anyone else.
If she needed money she sould have gotten up while she had chips in front of her and missed whatever hands so she could get the $$.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Yeah - the Arizona casinos do show favotitism to people they know.
What seat were you in? I was at the table.
That woman is welcome to take as much time as she would like to rebuy. Complaining about it is -EV.
Jim I think I was in the 8 seat.
I think this is really wrong - if the woman is out of cash she should leave while she has chips in front of her and go to the ATM - the dealer can't deal to an empty seat with no chips - think about how rediculous this is.
OK she is a fish of sorts and contributes to the pot but what if a real good player did it would you object?
sure its wrong but dont you want to play with people that run to the atm machines? however it is always right to ask for a decision that may benefit you if the current state of affairs is changed. plus slowing down the game benefits you financially as well in a tournament.
Last night I was in a $50 buy in and $50 rebuys for the 1st 3 rounds. Blinds double every 20 min. 70 start (T$500 to start) and there is $14,000 in the pot.
I am sailing along real well my game plan is working my tight play worked the 1st 3 rounds and my 1 rebuy left me with $1050 at the break. I am now looser and buliding my stack to $6000 - we are down to 18 players and blinds are $400/$800 I can't remember when the blinds were this high with this many players still in the tourney. We're moving to $800/$1600 in a min or so.
2 seats to my left chip leader is calling everyone with anything. I beat him with a big hand and he is leaving me alone for now. But he is capable of a big bet with nothing.
I get AQ UTG 9 at the table and "DONT RAISE" I have a great table image and would have liked to rake in the blinds here for some stupid reason I just call the $800. Only the BB an average to weak player is left.
Flop comes Q 6 3 rainbow. BB goes all in and I push in too - he has QJo I'm in the lead but a J falls on the turn. I lose and those are the breaks but I think I should have made it $1600 prefolp. It is the only mistake I think I make in a tough tournament.
A win would have left me with $12,000 and a sure final table seat as the big blinds were takng their toll on the smaller stackes.
Oh Well, tournaments are won and lost by those making the fewest mistakes I made one and paid for it.
I'm certainly no NLH expert. But my initial reaction, which I am posting here to be shot at, is to suggest that not only should you have raised, you should have gone all-in. A decent (pot-size) raise would be call 800 + 2000 = 2800 in total, half your stack. I think I'd rather put it all in than have to play guessing games on the flop. And if you don't want to do this, folding is Plan B. There is nothing else. If you really can take the blinds down with a 1 BB raise from UTG you must have _excellent_ control over your opponents.
BTW in case anyone is wondering why I am answering questions and not asking any lately, my favourite card-room is closed for a month so I am taking a short break. I will be back soon and once I start playing some HE tournaments I will have _lots_ of questions I'm sure.
Andy.
You are correct - I blew this hand big time and it cost me. I should have made at least a double the blind bet but as I put the money in I knew it and damn near said raise. I could see the table getting ready to fold and I couldn't see BB calling a big bet with QJ but he is capable of it - I don't remember if he was suited but if he was I think he would call - like I said he is average to weak.
Remember TJ Cloutier: AQ under the gun is the 1rst trap hand ... (in NL HE T)
TJ says UTG with AQ just call and fold if raised.
I still think under the circumstances a small raise was in order. I was winning and showing big hands so I think UTG I had an edge - also On the button a few hands earlier I mucked an AJ with two big raises in and the hand turned over. You'd think I mucked AA the way they looked at me. So an UTG call if not a raise from me at this table carried a lot of weight.
I guess I just feel bad playing well for 3 hours and getting knocked out by an inferior player with an inferior hand.
Suppose this was pot-limit and not no-limit. You have AQo (or AKo if you prefer) in early position, you put half your stack in with a maximum raise and get one caller. That makes 7-8K in the pot and you have 3K left. You miss the flop, and you have to act first. What do you do ? What factors influence your decision ?
Thanks,
Andy.
Factors that influence my decision is the texture of the flop and the opposition.
say the flop is ragged like 4-7-9 - I may bet the rest of my stack. If the player is the type who will fold if he thinks he is beat I'd bet the stack.
very situational - usually in a tournament if I don't folp to my AK I get away from the hand. But there are exceptions to that.
I bet all in and hope he missed the flop also and has even less than me. If he folds, I love it. If he calls, I hope I'm either ahead or not too far behind. If someone feels that this is a questionable strategy and would prefer checking, I would like to play you head's up.
Let's see...............
You get someone to move all in against you when he has two draws to the three remaining J's. He gets there and now you are looking for ways you could have stolen the blinds rather than played this hand the way you did....
Rounder, results don't determine the correctness of the play. Your UTG limp isn't what I would have done, but it was one way of playing. You must have wanted to see a flop cheaply. You succeeded. You had to love the flop, top pair, top kicker. When the BB bet all in, you correctly guessed that he didn't have the best hand at this point and called him.
******IMPORTANT POINT*******
You were a huge favorite when the bulk of the money went in. You did your job correctly. Forget about the results on this one hand and hope that you get plenty of these highly favorable situations in the future.
Yeah John - guess your right - the decision was correct at the time and for the position just was so close but no cee-gar. See you Friday night.
I'll be at Crystal Park by 4:00 P.M. on Friday. It is kind of hard to miss me if I'm standing up. If you see two guys talking together who are over 6'7" tall, one is Mike Paulle and the other is me. I'm the good looking slightly taller one. If you are still unsure even given this perfectly clear description, Mike Paulle has a ponytail.
I'll be there at about 5pm - I'll find you.
A NL Holdem tournament was down to 5 of us. UTG (Chip leader) had about 15000, Next two players 3000 and 9000 respectivly, Me in SB 7000 and BB 8000. Blinds were at the 500/1000 level. Payout was typical with first three places getting the bulk of the prize pool.
On the hand in question, all passed to me in SB where I had picked up KK. I made it 2000 to go, BB called. Flop was 10, 8, 2 high with 2 clubs, I bet all in. He flolded showing the table 87h. His comment was that he knew I had a big hand and that he was just taking a shot and would have to flop at least 2 pair in order to continue.
Was he correct to take a shot at me given that he put me on a big pair? Secondly, should one slow play a big made hand such as QQ or KK at this stage in the tournament and give the other players a relatively cheap way of doubling through you?
Your only mistake was not getting all in pre flop.
Take the grand and run.
Never slow play a big pair in a NL HE tournament it is to easy to get beat with trips or 2 small pair by giving free cards away.
Rounder,
I make it T3000 here, hoping to get the BB to make a mistake. I would like to make more than just the antes with KK in the late stages of a tournament. When you are down to one other player, you can certainly afford to take some risk. If you don't love KK against one random hand, then I don't know what you'd be willing to gamble with. If he calls my T3000, with the flop containing two clubs and a possible straight draw, I move all in hoping to win it right there.
John guess I have lost to many tournaments with KK - I'd just as soon win it right there. I usually hate to see flops in NL HE unless I have AA.
I'd like to see Rounder and TJ heads-up in a no-limit final. Neither one likes any hand other than AA.
Not true - I played with TJ at Sam's town and he made a big bet on a 52s in mid position and all folded to him he showed meaning he wasn't gonna bluff again.
Hey I like KK as much as the mext guy but what I'm trying to say is there is so many ways it can be beat I lile to win a GOOD blind right now. Of course if the blinds are small I'd play it a bit differently.
You did the right move with your KK's. One thing I do not understand is why players goes all in with strong hands to get only the blinds money. Here was your chance to trap the big blind and reduced the numbers of players to 4. But he was smart enough to throw his hand away.
A big bet pre flop can entice a call from someone overprotective of the blind. Guess you have to know your players.
I kinda look at it this way short handed no one has an A cuz it would be bet. So the chance of BB having an A is good. Hey I have lost so many ways with KK there isn't eneough time in the day to write them all down.
How about this Red KK small raise. Black 33 calls flop Blanks but 2 s I go in called runer runner s and I lose to a flush - I really don't want to see a flop here OK.
There is nothing wrong in going all in with KK's as a small blind against the Big Blind who has almost the same amount of chips. This can be seen as stealing the big blind and if he does have a good hand than you have him trap. If he does not have a good hand than you do not win anything. So your move may be the correct one in this case SB against BB because you both have only 7 times the BB's money
I personnally questioned players who goes all in with KK's and AA's in order to collect the blinds only. Instead, they should trap a few players and make a lot more money by putting in a raise three times the big blind for example.
The point I'd like to make regarding your bet size is, whatever you decide, it should be the same whether you have KK, Ax or 72. Once you decide to bet, don't give any more information. If you like a 2000 raise in this chip position, then make it 2000. If you prefer all-in, then go all-in. Ideally you should be stealing enough pots so that people are suspicious. How sweet it is when someone puts you on a steal when in fact you have a monster this time.
Andy.
That is part of the stealing/trap mentality - My sort of big hand bet is double or triple the blind.
"Was he correct to take a shot at me given that he put me on a big pair? "
He was absolutely correct! You gave this fellow a cheap chance to beat you and he correctly took it. It cost him $1000 to take a shot at almost doubling through and moving into good chip position. Plus knocking you out and moving up in the money. Cheap at twice the cost.
vince.
Actually, Vince, you're wrong!
This guy said that he had to flop 2 pair to play on. If that's true, then he doesn't have the odds to call the 1K raise. If the BB calls the 1K raise, he is getting immediate odds of 3:1, plus an extra 5K he can win postflop if he gets it all in and wins. This adds up to 8:1 total actual + implied odds. It is more than 8:1 against flopping 2 pair or better.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hey there all,
I am playing in my first no-limit HE tournament on Friday. Any advice? Phil
Phil see the post of The Palyer a few posts down and read TJ Cloutiers Championship NL PL HE book.
$60 tournament and $40 re-buy and 1 add-on allowed. I beleive the hands prior to the ending of the multi-rebuy period is very crucial. This particular tournament gives you $500 for your buy-in and re-buy. You can re-buy anytime you reach below $500.
With less than $1500 just prior to the re-buy ending period, should you gamble so that if you missed you still can rebuy up to $1500 in chips ( 2 rebuys + 1 add-on). And if you win, then you have chips to play with.
One hand before the re-buys period end, Seat 6 looks at his chips and bet $150. I beleive he his making a move so that if he does not flop he still has left $400 and can add 1 re-buy plus one add-on which will give him a total of $1400 in chips. He gets 2 callers. I am in the Big Blind and goes all-in with $1300. with Jd-8d knowing seat 6 will throw his hand away and hoping the other 2 callers will follow. Surprise! Seat 6 does throw his hand away but the other 2 players called. The flop is 2x-3x-9d. Turn is 7d and the river is 10x. I made a straight and collected over $4000. Players were still talking about it after the break. Tried to steal, got caught and still made the hand. How sweat it is? This time I got lucky. But, should that multi-rebuy strategy be applied in some specific circumstances?
It sure can be - I can honestly say I don't like to rebuy until the break and only top up my chips is I am below $3000. Specially in a NL HE tourney.
I think the proper strategy is to win you way to the final table. I often see guys making 8 10 rebuys it is good for the pot but I also get sick of knocking the same guys out more than once.
You should never lose chips on purpose, or take what you know is a bad gamble, just to get below the qualifying amount and be eligible to rebuy (unless you only need to give away a VERY few chips, no more than T50 in your structure).
Also, since the rebuy chips are cheaper than the original chips, you should rebuy EVERY time you are eligible to do so.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
.. I keep hearing stories about it being correct to fold AA in rare occasions, and I was wondering if it was because of the prize money (as you move closer to the disproportionately large first prize, the risk of knocking yourself out more than compensates for the huge edge you would have with AA).
M.
M,
I wouldn't see it that way. If you risk being knocked out on a hand then, by definition, 1) you are not the chip leader and 2) you can double up if (when hopefully) they hold up. I can't see when I would drop the aces in any tournament where first prize pays more.
Now, the situation when it might come up is in a super-satellite, where maybe the top 5 places all pay the same (an entry). If there is no danger you will be blinded out before the last 5, fold everything, including the bullets.
Another real example is a tournament being run in the UK as we speak. It's not easy to explain. Four separate qualifying tournaments are held, $160 buy-in, multiple re-buys. On each night, the final 25% qualify for the final. In the final, everyone starts again with an equal stack (and you can only qualify once). In a qualifier, nearing the cut-off when everyone left makes it, a big stack would definitely be right to drop the Aces. Easier said than done though I'm sure.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
It can be a stretigic play under some circumstances.
In a satellite when it is just the top x finishers that get seats in the bigger tourney. Say they are paying the top 3 finishers and there are 4 left at the table.
big stack and 2 small stacks are all in and you have to act with your AA - you muck - no sense getting in this one under any circumstances. Just hope they don't chop this pot.
I have mucked good hands in the following circumstances. We are down to 11 players in a tournament several players in a hand and I know I am in cashing position when this hand is over I don't get mixd up in it and take my chances at the final table.
AA gets cracked a lot - so you're not giving up to much if you muck them in the right conditions.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I did fold them once. The situation occurred in a graduated rebuy tournament. One player had entered the potfor T15. I had only T15 remaining. The most I could have won would be T60. If I fold I could rebuy for an extra T100 in one minute for the same amount of money.
Here is a case. In the Golden Nuggets first championship they had an all around player prize. it was quite a prize. you got one point for every player eliminated ahead of you . you had to play in all the tournaments but the last one for the prize. the player with the most points won. i was leading everyone by a large point spread going into the last tournament. the only way i could lose was if one of the 2 closest people came in about 5th or better if i just anted and never played a losing hand. my strategy was to play very slowly and waste a lot of time and then fold. if i got aces i would certainly fold if someone else came in the pot and there was any chance they may call if i raised. well finally near the midway point i got two aces. no one came in yet and i was not sure i had the win so i raised all in to get the antes. everyone knew i didnt want to get broke so they knew i had the goods. however one person who was a calling station thought a long time and i got worried he may call. so i said to him as i turned my aces face up on the table "only a fool would call two aces with no money in the pot" he finally folded what he thought was a good hand. it worked and i went one to win. after the tournament a lot of talk ensued about me showing the hand and some people thought it was unethical or it changed the chances of their winning. somewhat true but not much. well after that tournament all the ones outlawed showing your hand.
"after the tournament a lot of talk ensued about me showing the hand and some people thought it was unethical "
Gee Z, can't understand why anyone would think showing your hand so that the other player would fold and not take a chance at beating you would be unethical. What were they thinking? Why I always thought showing your cards was just part of the game. After all we don't play no peek now do we. And putting backs on the cards was only done to save money. Yeah are they way off. By the way are you a graduateof MCU. The founder of that U doesn't seem to believe much in ethical behavior either.
Vince.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
"ZEEMAN EFFECT"
This must be the play that MM refers to in one of his Poker Essays books.
NL Holdem tournament first hand. You're on the button with AA, and much to your amazement, six people are all in before you get a chance to act. You're a very strong player for this field, say you win this tournament about 20% of the time, and are in the money about 70% of the time?
What is the chance of AA losing a pot to six random hands? In the times that you survive the hand you are going to have to make up a lot to cover your lost return on the times you bust out.
Clearly if the number of all ins increase enough to bring the AAs expected chance of winning the pot below 20% then it is trivially correct to muck.
Even if it's a 10-handed game, and everyone else is all-in, AA will win more than 20% of the time.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I don't think so, because winning thiis hand and getting a dominant chip position early should effectively increase your chances of winning the tournament to much more that 20%. Your analysis assumes that these variables ar independent, when they must be dependant.
I know this is a trivial case, but it's not often that I catch FossilMan in a state of fuzzy thinking.
M7,
No fuzzy thinking. I wasn't commenting on the major question of the thread, just pointing out that the chances of AA winning (when all-in preflop) will never go below 20%. I guess the odds might go below 20% if there are enough players, but it takes more than 10, which is a number you'll never exceed in a casino game.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I am curious. I wonder how many great poker players would put up a lot of money to sit at a table of full of other great poker players. Great poker players know that they win money from the shall we say less fortunate poker players among us. The "poker challenged" you may say. S&M have stated before that you win money at poker, especially Holdem Poker, because other players play bad and in some cases literally throw thier money at you. If that is the case then a table full of great players must be a crap shoot. The luck of the deal must be the deciding factor. Why they may as well flip a coin.
So why would a Champion enter a Tournament of Champions? Why would he/she waste his time? Where is the overlay? Why even play the long hours to determine a winner, why not just draw cards. A TOC makes no sense at all. It may even be detrimental to poker in general. One of the reasons (among others) that Chess is not a Casino Gambling game of large proportions is because of the publics view of Chess as a game of skill. Most don't want to be bothered having to learn the skills necessary to win at a game of skill. They want to gamble. The majority of poker players view poker as a gambling game. If they felt that it was really a complicated game requiring great skill to win most would simply find another casino game to gamble their hard earned money away.
How many of you think that the World Series of Poker is a benefit to Poker? Of all the poker players in the world a mere 360 showed up to play in the final. A final that is No Limit Holdem. How many No Limit Holdem Games are spread in the U.S on a continuous basis. Why? NL Holdem is a killer. Unless you are willing to become an expert you have little if any chance of winning even in one session. The beauty of limit poker is that winning requires great skill but gives the appearance of being a game of chance. On the other hand NL gives the appearance of what it is, a game of skill.
So how can a tournament that advertises that skill is needed to win at poker be a benefit to the game. I believe the TOC was the brain child of a successful tournament player whose ego got the best of him. I do not believe that he considered nor even cared about the potential harm to the poker world of a tournament of this type. In fact I understand that he is promoting an intergalactic poker tournament. Sort of a Ryder cup of poker. Teams made up of expert poker players. Good idea? For who? Not for me and I dont beleive for the rest of the limit poker playing world. Just another advertisement of the skill needed to win at this game. Just a way to tell the gambling public to keep away.
Vince.
As for the TOC, if you sat through the first day, you saw that there was a wide disparity in talents amongst "champions". As for the WSOP, I'd reckon that no more than "a mere 360" were either qualified or could afford to play in the final event. The answer to your overall question is that simply, people like to be intellectually challenged. The number of khaki-clad, university-attending guys trying to play poker is helpful to the long-term health of the game. Further, poker has what Anthony Holden called "a very high male approval rating", meaning it is played by a large number of successful individuals, including lawyers, judges, doctors, and so forth.
I have clients who have never gambled a dollar in their lives, but are aware of the WSOP and look forward to seeing it on TV. I have other clients who have attended poker tourneys with me. The bottom line is that, believe it or not, most intelligent people don't really want to feel like idiots giving their money to the casinos at slots and such.
It isn't NL holdem, the WSOP, or the TOC holding back the public -- it's the casino owners who know it isn't as profitable to host a poker room.
As a Khaki-clad, university attending guy, I'm glad there are ignorant blue-color idiots like yourself who help to pay my tuition
Hey you guys fight somewhere else! I started this thread! If anyone's the idiot here it's me! Thank you very much!
Vince
My guess is that it isn't Earl that is helping pay your tuition. I'm at a loss as to what you interpreted in what he wrote as being negative towards you.
Thanks for the defense John, but yes, I'm probably helping pay his tuition, although certainly not in the way he seems to imply. Maybe you know what the effective tax rate is for people who run their own business? I'm certain that at least part of that money goes to education, although in this case, I'm not sure it was money well-spent. My understanding is that "ignorant" means "unlearned". Mr. X should stick to his pseudonym when throwing rocks from his glass house.
Speaking of the "Poker Challenged", when are you coming to LV again Vince?
Brett
Brett o Brett! Wow ,I was just going to put an all points bulletin on you! I'll be in Vegas from 6 to 18 January. You will have plenty of opportunity to take more of my money. something you do on a regular basis when we play together. At least you smile when you do take it though. Please next time though would you mind putting your teeth in. You're not the prettiest thing in the world you know.
See you then!
Your "Poker Challenged" mark!
Vince.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Well Badger it's a good thing you love me because I bet Arnold Palmer hates me now.
Badger writes:
"I golf, but is the US Open golf tournament bad for me, or the Masters?"
Maybe. Do you bet on golf? Would you play Tiger woods for money even up? How would you know how good Woods is if it weren't for professional golf Tournaments. Pro Golfers are fortunate that there is sponsor money that is put up as prize money. They don't earn their money from playing the general public the way pro poker players do.
Badger Writes:
"The TOC could/should/might lead to a great expansion of public awareness about poker,"
Badger, could/should/might, may be the best arguemnt I have for attaking Sexton's TOC. Do you think he even gave an IOTA of concern for live game poker pros when he thought up these tournaments. I'll bet he never considered could/should/might or might not or if it ain't broke don't fix it. You my friend grew up in the same country I did. Do you really believe that there are more than 10% of the U.S population that is inaware of poker. I might be willing to lay 3 to 1 that at > 70% of U.S males have played, for money, one variation of poker or another. Women maybe 30%.
Tourists gamble. They go to Casinos to gamble. They gamble as a release. They work all year at their jobs and then want to let off some steam. When they go to Casinos they are not looking fo challenges. If they become aware that a game they are playing requires mucho skill to win at they will just move on to a simple game like Craps. Mark this old man's word. They great spurt in poker from 85-95 can be attributed in part to the great spurt in Casino Gambling during the same period. I do not feel that I am being short sighted here. When I go to a Casino I want a poker game to be going on that I can play in. It is like that for the most part right now. I don't want to see that change for the worse.
BTW - would you mind clearing up this thing with Arnie. You see I am not much of a golf fan. But Arnold Palmer for god's sake. Who doesn't love Arnold?
Vince.
Vince,
I would venture a guess that more money is won and lost on golf courses in America by "amateurs" (recreational golfers) than the total prize money for all the professional golf tours put together. The greater visibility poker has, the more interest it will engender in the general population. The TOC increases the public's awareness that poker is a big money contest. Whenever people see big money being contested for, they begin to pay attention. A certain number will have enough curiosity to pursue it further. I support anything that will attract more people to come into public cardrooms and begin playing. There are only seven poker players in the world right now that I am sure I can beat, and two of them are currently sick. I need fresh blood!
I Vince's defense, I don't think he's blue collar, hell, I've never even seen him wear a collar.
As far as tournaments go, there are a lot of us ring players who feel that all they do is remove precious dollars (our possibls earnings) from the poker economy. I would prefer that all the entry fees to the TOC be placed in live action (rather than just giving them to David Chiu, who won't give them back).
Brett
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Vince writes that Sexton didnt give one iota of concern to ring players when he thought of the TOC. Well, Vince, I am sure you dont give any thought to tournament players when you play in live games. and why the hell should you???
At least Sexton's efforts are helping promote poker. If there is something that you are doing on this scale that is helping promote ring games, then that would be good thing too. But if youre not, how can you pop off about someone who is?
You also seem concerned that players who regularly sit in ring games and lose their ass to guys like you will see the TOC and realize that poker is a game of skill too and suddenly quit the game and take up Yahtzee.
Well, it doenst work that way. That thought will NEVER enter their minds or it would have 103 losing sessions ago.
So basically it seems you are more concerned about YOUR bottom line and what helps YOU. Thats fine, but just dont degrade someone else who is trying to promote the game in the process. And whehter Sexton makes money or not in in this venture is irrelevant. He is at least doing SOMETHING!! When the "Vince Lepore Ring Game Championship of Poker" draws 660 people and recieves the poker world's and media attention that the TOC did, then you can pop off.
Gambler
I have had hundreds of conversations with poor poker players over the years. Most of them think they are better than average players, and very few see themselves as being the worst player in any game they sit in.
I played 15-30 lowball for years with a man that did almost everything wrong you could name. Hopeless bluffs, not protecting his cards from opponents eyes, the list is too long to go on. I asked him why he kept playing lowball and he told me that he usually won. I remember maybe five occasions out of two hundred or more sessions, that he left the game with any money, let alone winnings. He enjoyed playing, the money wasn't important to him as he was very wealthy. If he wanted to lie to himself and others about his results from playing, that was his right. I certainly said nothing to make him think that I doubted what he was saying.
I think you can rest easy, Vince; poker players aren't going to stop playing because they realize it is a game of skill. Poker players will only stop playing when they aren't allowed to enjoy the experience.
"When the "Vince Lepore Ring Game Championship of Poker" draws 660 people and recieves the poker world's and media attention that the TOC did, then you can pop off."
You certainly have a lot to say for someone who has almost never (I don't remeber another one besides this) posted on this forum before. Maybe you are really Mike Sexton but are using a psueodnym. Who knows? The point of your post though is well taken. I am not a big draw to the poker room. It amazes me that I am not though. If you saw me play you would be getting in line to get at my table. Ask 3 bet brett. He has a hotline to Bellagios that notifies hemi when I walk in the poker room. By the way tourists won't gamble on Yahtzee when they visit the Casino but they may just decide that craps is a better deal than poker.
As far as my promoting poker. I do that here on this forum and here only. I do not have the ego that some have. Well I do but I am not a good enough player or well known enough player to exploit my skill or fame. If I were I ,would certainly consider the effect my promoting something would have on the overall state of the game of poker.
By the way I prefer playing tournaments to live games.
Also I only win the "ass" of those players that are well endowed in that area and are of the opposite persuasion than me. I guess that is what you mean when you say I am concerned with the BOTTOM line. Guilty.
When you do as much for the game of poker as I do then maybe you can POP off also. What do I do, you ask? Why I am an honest ethical poker player that shares his expereince and knowledge (for what it's worth) with anyone that asks, that's all. Maybe you should try it!
Vince.
Fair enough, Vince. I am sure you are a very honest and ethical player, as am I. And that's good for poker too.
And no, I am not Sexton. Dont even know him other than seeing him at tournaments. But it seems he has the best interest of poker in mind and that should be appreciated by someone like you.
Anyway, keep getting some of that ass, and save some for me.
Gambler
Vince, I can understand your point on this one, but I have to disagree. I have been playing poker for only a short time (about a year or so), and it wasn't until about six months ago that I really began thinking about my game, reding books, and realized all the skill that was involved in winning. Of course, that is not to say that I didn't already know that skilled poker players win, but I guess most amateurs and beginners don't really think about that. When (most) people go to the casino and sit down at a blackjack table, they know that the house has an advantage and that they are a statistical loser, but they like to gamble, and know that they might get lucky and hit it big. The same holds true for the gamblers that sit down at your poker table, however, people watch the WSOP on espn and watch these played make these sophisticated moves and marvel at thier talents, but they never consider when they sit down to play that they might be up against someone like that. They just assume that everyone is just like them.
I guess you could use the movie "rounders" as an example. The whole premise of that movie was that poker is not a game of luck, but a game of skill. Cheating was also a prevalent theme. Time after time, after time, they showcased the fools who dared sit with a master and try to win, and demonstrated thier point by letting us see the amateur lose time and time again to the skilled player. However, a lot of people who saw that movie became more interested in playing poker, not the opposite, so what gives?
I have watched the WSOP for many years, long before I was a poker player, and enjoyed it. When I sat down and played in my first 3/6 game, the WSOP never even crossed my mind, I just played and lost, and lost more, and then a little more, and went home feeling unlucky, but that didn't stop me from going back for more the next night, just as much as watching the champs on tv didn't stop me from sitting down the first time.
Mike Blair
Has anybody tried the no-limit upgrade Wilson is offering for their tournament software. If so, how do you like it, or maybe you've heard from somebody you know?
Thanks,Perry
I have it on order.. however, not having any real NL experience, my review is probably not worth anything for you...
I started looking a little closer at the ad for the Seniors tournament at Crystal Park that is going on right now. Except for the Championship event, they are all $100 buy-ins with $20.00 "Juice". Most of them have the $25.00 Charity rebuy or add-on option. Some of these Charity rebuys are multiple during the first two or three betting rounds. My thinking is that the charity in question is probably something like a fund to be doled out to help oldtime poker players in need. A good cause to be sure, but not one that I want to be tied to the rebuys when it gives people ammunition to fire at me without giving me any additional payouts in the prize pool. I played in several of the Seniors events last year, including the Championship event. This year they've doubled the entry fee there, making it $1,000.00.
Because of the charity confiscation, which is certain to make this a -EV event for all players, plus the fact that $1,000 is more than I want to spend for the Championship event, I won't be playing in any events this yeat except the Monday NL Hold-em event which has no rebuys. This is three fewer events than I had planned on playing. Charity is good, but not when it is made into an involuntary tax to the detriment of the donators and the non-donators.
Come on John I had visions of you and I heads up for the final this weekend.
OK then will you be playing any of the satellites.
I will be there tomorrow afternoon. I might play some satellites if the "juice" isn't exhorbitant. They have an Indo Pak Flash game that is starting up again after a longish layoff. I've always been a sucker for games like that. Depending on who is there, we might get a NL ring game started too. See you when you get there.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Steve,
It isn't the charity that I object to; it is using tournaments as a cover to raise money for charity when those that choose not to donate are placed at a big disadvantage. Donators receive chips at a discount, ie $25.00, and, to make matters worse, I can get none of that money anyway. If Johnny wants to raise money for his favorite charities, let him pass the hat at his events. I would play if he raised the "juice" to $30.00 and he and Crystal Park agreed to donate *THAT* to their favorite charities.
I hope that the poor attendance at the Senior's this year is seen as a referendum on the changes they've made. One of the charities should be the Alzheimer's Foundation; anyone willing to pay the percentage of "Charity Juice" that is being collected, probably would be an indirect beneficiary.
There seems to be a trend in tournaments to raise the juice and make the tournament itself more profitable rather than rely on spill over action to generate the profit. Now I agree that charity rebuys don't exactly fit into this area, but the effect is still the same. I predict that tournaments will be damaged in the future if the trend continues and spreads to many other tournaments since more long run tournament results will be negative, thus producing a smaller core of regular players.
I have only darkened the door of the Crystal Park Casino once - which was enough. I felt it was poorly managed and the tables were not controlled by the dealers or the floormen.
In addition, the rooms were poor and the neighborhood was dangerous.
Now it seems they are trying to ream the tournament players with exorbitant juice.
Gee, I wonder if I should give them another try?
Structue: NL Hold Em $30 buy in = 2000 Tourny Chips $30 re buy= 2000 Tourny Chips $30 re buy (last one)= 4000 Tourny Chips
I'm near the chip lead at the end of the re-buy period w/ about 7000... We're on a break and have one last chance to re buy before the next round starts. I notice most people at the table re buying one or both of their re buys... I'm barely the chip leader now... I'm thinking hard... Do I take my re buys and remain chip leader? I decide my best chances are to take my two rebuys and go up on the pack. I wind up splitting second place. Was this the right move? My feeling is yes, but would love some feed back from the crew.
Thanks- DAN
you should take all rebuys most times unless--
1. you have so many chips that you dont improve your chances very much.
2. you have so little chips and the blinds are high and will wipe you out anyway soon and you are far from the money.
3. you are at a lousy table and wont go anywhere.
4. there is a player on your left that ruins your chances.
5. personal reasons
My (very limited) experience has been that by the time I actually use the re-buy chips they are only worth 1-2 blinds, which to me doesn't seem worth it. So now I don't rebuy. These rebuys are limited to 1 in the first 2 levels.
Kate,
good luck on your tournament success. do read mason's stuff on rebuys.
"Mason's stuff on rebuys" -- I know I've seen references but I forget -- where can I find it? Thanks.
nm
If the only rebuy available were the regular rebuy (2K in chips for the same $30), I wouldn't bother with it when I have 7K in chips. The extra 2K isn't worth it, since the chips have (slightly) less value when added to a large stack.
However, the 4K rebuy is definitely worthwhile. Even if these chips are worth slightly less, you're only paying half-price for them, so it is still a great bargain. I would make that rebuy almost no matter what my chip count was.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
yea the chips do have less value when added to a big stack. this is also based on everyone playing equally well. a very good player gets much extra value from his chips and a bad player gets even less for his. if you are an average player then it probably doesnt matter too much what you do as long as you do the approximate right thing.
Thanks for the responses. I'm now more comfortable with my decision. FYI... The last rebuy period ended just before the blinds were raised to T1000-T2000.
The poker tournament at my local cardroom is going to implement a rule change next week that I believe will have a significant effect on the play of hands. In a limit tournament there will be no checking allowed until the final table. You can only fold, bet, or raise until then. I believe that this will make position an even bigger factor than it usually is. There will be no way to gain info, raise for a free card, check raise, or even protect a hand from a raiser just as a few possibilities. Are there any thoughts on how to adjust one's play to this condition. Thanks.
position will be a big factor. you want to be near last to act. you may win many hands with nothing because they have to fold to you if you are last. playing good hands will be important as well as. raising to get last position will come more into play unless they are very loose. it may not be so bad as the cardroom probably wants the tournaments to end sooner and be more fun so they can get side games going. you still get to play normal at the last table but you just gamble a lot more to get there. what you loose in earn by not being able to grind your way down you may get at the side action. also when you get to the last table it will be full of the worst players.
Well, I just got back from my first day at Taj tourney. Here is a hand for you to consider:
Down to 3 tables ~25 players, 7 at your table. 18 players will make the money. You have 2200 in chips, the average stack is about 4000. The limits are 200-400. You are the small blind. All fold to the button who has about 4500, and he raises. The big blind has less than 1000. You look down and see pocket TT. The first question is fold/call/raise? Whatever you do,assume the BB folds, if you raise assume the button calls. The flop comes 762 two suits, neither matching your ten. What is your plan of play here?
I would reraise to try to get it headsup. If it goes headsup, I would seriously consider a check-raise to that flop, and bet out on the turn (if he checks the flop behind you, he probably wouldn't have folded for a bet anyway).
I would bet the flop, and go all in on the turn, regardless of what comes and hope for the best. After you reraise on the turn and flop this decent flop your pot committed, go for it.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Thanks for the responses. I too pushed the hand, and it cost me making the money, as I finished 20th. The button had AA and he went on to finish 3rd.
Overpair to the flop? I bet.
I am too conservative when I get down to the money round. I have never won a tourney, but have been in the money a lot. I would probably fold and take my chances as the button moves around. I'd let some others get dumped out and hope my stall can get me to a better position, a better hand or at least allow some others from other tables or the BB at my table with only 1000 to loose his chips.
I think I just used up my lifetime supply of luck. I played in the $20 buy-in limit HE tournament at the Mohegan Sun today and survived 5 all-ins to get 2nd place and $600. I just had to tell the "world."
Good job Kate! Success usually breeds success in these things. Once you find the way to get to that final table a couple times you pick up those last few pieces of the puzzle necessary to get there more often in the future. Next time, survive six all ins and get the trophy.
Thanks for the kind words. I hope you're right!
Kate,
All in bets are sometimes just a desperate call and sometimes they are a brillant move with a good hand to eigther win blinds and/or attract big bets from big stacks with lesser hands.
Not always just "luck" although you need a bit to win.
Well, this was a limit tourney but you're right -- even there, it requires judgment as to when to get in, when you're getting down close to the end of your chips.
15-30 limit, loose table, I have about 700 in chips, average stack is about 500.
First hand I get dealt 10d7d in the BB. UTG limps, 5 more callers to the button, who raises. SB calls. I am expecting an 8 way pot so I put in the additional small bet. I am also thinking to myself that this is a bad call, but for some reason I just put in the chips anyway! Actually I think the possibility of a giant pot early in the tournament is worth the extra small bet now. I know it's a longshot play and I'm open for criticism. I also know that if the flop is not favorable I will be out. If I get a good flop I can probably outplay the table. Everyone calls and it's an 8 way pot.
Flop comes 10s 7s 6c. SB checks, I bet, 5 callers to the button who raises. SB cold calls, I reraise, one drops, the rest call, 7 way action. This is exactly what can happen when you make a bad call early, you get enough of the flop to be forced to play, but everyone and his brother is drawing to beat you. I may regret that pre-flop call yet.
Turn is 3c, a good card for me, or so I think. Surprisingly, SB bets out. This is great for me since I can force others to cold call two big bets. I raise. UTG cold calls, Button cold calls, SB calls, rest fold.
River is the dastardly 9h. (well at least the flushes didn't get there). Now I think I'm really going to regret that pre-flop call. SB checks, I check, UTG bets, Button calls, SB calls and I call. UTG shows down AA, SB has Js9s, button mucks, and my two pair wins a giant pot.
2nd hand 50-100 limit I have about 1900 in chips. Moved tables so now I am at a tough table with few fish but UTG is a semi-maniac.
I have black AA in the SB. UTG raises, button calls, I reraise, UTG reraises again, button calls, I cap (5 bet cap). 3 way action.
Flop is Js 10s 5d. I bet, UTG raises, button calls, I reraise, UTG reraises, button calls, I cap, all call (wasn't this the same as the last round?).
Turn is the Qs. I bet again, UTG calls (now I don't think he has a set or two pair) and button calls. I am pretty sure I have the best hand and the best draw. I am putting UTG on kings in the hole and the button on a jack or an open ended straight draw possibly with a spade. I don't think either player has better than one pair or I would be raised again on the turn.
River is both beautiful and ugly, the 9s. I have a flush, but If I am right about UTG having kings, he could have the Ks which leaves me screwed. Also the button may have the Ks (or even the 8s). I check with the intention of calling. UTG bets, Button calls, I call. Sure enough UTG has KsKc and I lose to the straight flush. Had I not listened to my own "read" I would have surely lost several more big bets on the river. He couldn't believe I just checked and called. button mucked without showing. I lose a monster and my stack is smaller now! D'OH!
Final hand where I got knocked out (final table), 500-1000 limit:
I am BB with 74o. One caller, an extremely loose weak player. everyone folds to me, I check.
Flop is 7h 4h 3c. I bet, he calls.
Turn is 2h. I bet, he calls.
River is 2s. I check, he checks. HE has Qh3h and has a flush. Go figure. I write it off as one of those "what are you going to do" situations.
Wound up finishing 7th. Actually, I still had 100$ left after this hand, but I was promptly finished off when I went all-in in the SB with AsQs and lost.
Comments welcome.
Dave in cali
Well, I don't consider myself an expert but here's my gut reaction to your 3 hands. 1. Yeah, you probably should not have called that hand, but all is well, and it was early in the tourny... not a huge mistake at that point.
2. What can you say, you had a good read on the others, there was only one spade that would kill you and it did. Bad luck, not a bad play IMO.
3. Tough for me to say if you made a mistake in the BB. You had the best hand on the flop. Seems like you had to bet it. I'm not sure about betting out on the turn... maybe a check and fold was more appropriate... A lot depends on what you put that other player on, the type of player they are and how many chips they have... Personaly, these types of decisions (in the BB, see the flop w/ no raises) are difficult. Sometimes I hope for a raise so I can fold pre folp with confidence.
I'd love to hear more from the others about playing in the blinds in a tourny when you feel the end is near. Seems like two pair is about the best you can expect at that point. Do you save a bet when you fear you are beat and wait to play another couple of hands?
Regarding your comments on the third hand:
"3. Tough for me to say if you made a mistake in the BB. You had the best hand on the flop. Seems like you had to bet it. I'm not sure about betting out on the turn... maybe a check and fold was more appropriate... A lot depends on what you put that other player on, the type of player they are and how many chips they have... Personaly, these types of decisions (in the BB, see the flop w/ no raises) are difficult. Sometimes I hope for a raise so I can fold pre folp with confidence"
Betting the turn... Mmmmm ... Let's see.... I HATE this situation! I too wish someone would have just RAISED so I could be OUT! For goodness sake, aren't you supposed to raise or fold when entering the pot late in a tournament?!?!?!?!!!! But what can you do, he was the only bad player at the table. TOTALLY impossible to put him on a hand. I fully expected that if he had overcards or any pair that he would call to the river no matter what. I felt it would be wrong NOT to bet for value here. No point in wasting a prime opportunity. Now I WOULD have folded had he raised the turn. I couldn't really fathom the check-fold idea (at the time) because I didn't at all put him on a flush draw.
Ironic that against a good player I would have saved several bets and probably finished higher by just folding for a raise in the first place (like I was supposed to)!
Dave in Cali
The following hand happened this morning in a mimit holdem tourney. Blinds 50/100, limit 100/200 I was in the BB with $1050. A middle postion player raised, I called with 88. Flop comes 10 4 2 rainbow, we both check. Turn: 8, I check(hoping to raise) he checks. River:7 (don't remember the suits but a flush was not possible) bet, he raises, I reraise, he reraises, I reraise, he calls and turns over pocket tens.
Let me explain my thought during the hand. I would almost never call a raise cold with 88, even in the BB, but this player had raised with alot of hands at this point showing hands as weak as 22(UTG) and 44 prior to the hand. On the flop I checked, I can't beat op pair (it's a little weak but I will probably only be called or raised by a better hand). On the turn I checked again hoping to raise. This might have been a mistake but I had a feeling he'd make a move,he was a fairly aggresive player and judging by previous play I felt strongly he'd bet. On the river after he raised I thought for a split second "could this guy have tens" the only hand I really fear because I really didn't think j9 was possible. I figured with a tens he would definitley bet the turn, why would he wait till the river and risk being outdrawn (especially after a open ender came on the turn). Anyway I put him on pocket 7's, really the only hand that made sense judging by his previous play (he liked raising preflop with small pocket players) and b/c he checked the turn.
All comments are welcome.
I think you both screwed up. Neither of you had the nuts on the river, but bet like you had a mortal lock. I mean, if he had reraised you again, how many times would you have raised? The mistake is that you checked the hand to the river then got crazy about betting when there were several hands that could beat you. Nevermind the set of 10s, as you noted, for some maniacs, J-9 would not have been out of the question. At some point, you have to give your opponent credit for slowplaying a hand. But if you had bet the flop, you'd have probably lost less money overall on this hand.
I think predominantly stud players make this mistake less often on the river than hold-em players, first, because there are a lot more possible hands out there that can beat you on the river in stud, and second, because most hold-em players never seem to believe that you have anything.
when you bet out on the end, he has to have a bluff or at least two pair to raise you and that may not be enough. when you raise back you say trips or straight (mostly straight). he cant raise back without a straight here and you have to fear it. the fact that he had less doesnt alter how many bets can go in on a round without the nuts.
The way you describe the player, I beleive you should have bet the flop and see where you stand. With a strong hand, he would have called only and tried to trap you on the turn. You must check the turn and the river and only call if he bets. On a bluff or weak hand he probably would have raised you on the flop and even then you check the turn and river and calls if he bets. Multi-raise on the river without the best hand is a killer even in side games. To survive in a tournament, you must respect your opponent even if he is loose and agressive
I mentioned J9 in my post and judging by his previous play it was out of the question.
Made the final table at the Bike's no-limit HE tourney. I'm number 2 in chips - number 1 4x my stack. I'm perhaps 10 big chips ahead of the number 3. Breakdown: 1st - $1,950, 2nd - $995, 3rd - $495, 4th - $250, 5th-9th right around $100.
2nd hand, seat 5 all in with J5s - loses (surprise) - to chip leader, of course, rakes it in. Table begins discussing deals - leader gets $1500, everyone else gets $415.
Personally, I feel right on top of my game - and want to keep playing. Not to mention, I'm having fun - final tables are always fun.
I oppose. I want to keep playing. They offer me $500. Chip leader is susceptible to big swings, but he's been hitting all day - to be honest I don't respect his game. I'm tempted, but I want to play a few more hands. The rest of the table wants their $400 real bad and now I'm the enemy. I think I could have gotten $550 or $600 at this point. Whatever.
Next hand I raise 3000, chip leader calls, I miss - he scoops it in. The table starts up with the deal talk again, I relent and end the day up $415, less the $35 I spent in the tourney. A nice day.
Was my mistake not to take the $500.00 deal or at least try for a little more? I'm not complaining. I just want to know what should be motivating my decisions at this point. I think I missed out on an extra $100 at least. No big deal really, but I'd rather have it. Know what I mean?
As for whether you should have taken the deal on an emotional level, that's entirely up to you. Clearly playing on will guarantee that you never make a bad deal. If you turn down a good deal, then it might be a mistake in terms of EV, but that's your right.
As to whether the $500 they offered is a good deal, you must supply more information. Specifically, how many players remain, and what is each player's chip count?
What you should do is estimate your chances of finishing in each spot, multiply each estimate by the prize money paid for that spot, and add it up.
So, if you have 15% of the chips, and are in second place, you have pretty close to a 15% chance of winning. Maybe 25% second, 20% third, etc. Do the math, and if it is less than $500, then taking the deal is +EV. If it's more than $500, then taking the deal is -EV (although it still may be a good decision, depending upon your risk aversion and bankroll considerations).
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
There were 8 players left. Chip leader was 4x my stack. I was about 1/4 better than the 3-5 players, and about 3x 6-8. I wish I can be more exact.
it almost cant be a good deal. the chip leader is almost getting 1st place money and you in 2nd place are almost splitting the rest equally with people with less money and play worse. mason wrote some good stuff about it and all need to understand making deals or should just play the game out. if you are a good bargainer you could get the chip leader to give you some off his winnings in addition to the deal and hold out for more from the others.
You play small tournament to gain expertise especially at the final table. I assume the tournament fee is about $100 or $60 buy-in and $40 rebuy. Would you play in a tournament if you expect to win $400 to $500 at a cost of $100? I have been in the same position where my opponent was 3 to 1, & 4 to 1 and won the whole enchilada. You where in second position in chip and still quite a few player left. I beleive playing the tournament to the end, is your only alternative. Unless a guaranteed few hundred of dollars means more to you than the expertise you would get out of it and the satisfaction of playing your best in order to get the 1st prize. Next time beleive in yourself and compete. It is so much more rewarding.
Thanks for the responses. I had been running bad of late - and I needed a little score - not to pay bills - but for my own confidence - like I needed to show myself I could go home a winner again.
Looking back, I am sure I could have got some more money for myself.
To be honest, I let the table bully me a bit - and for that I am most upset. I do not like getting pushed around at the tables. All of a sudden I was the bad guy for wanting to play on - to be really honest, the final table is incredibly exciting - and it was over after three hands. The bottom feeders were so happy at the prospect of $400 - and the chip leader obviously had no complaints w/ $1500.
I had raised the very next hand after I denied the deal and the chip leader muscled me out of the pot. I started to feel uncomfortable at the table after that, and that, coupled with my desire to stop my recent bleeding forced me to relent.
Again, it's not the few dollars I missed out on - it's that I was bullied. I'll take it as a lesson. You're all alone at the tables, really, and when you start to doubt yourself - you've lost.
Thanks again.
I think that's exactly the lesson you should take from this. Never feel that you are "the bad guy" for turning down a deal, particularly as, without doing the sums, it smells like a bad one to me. This is something I am struggling to come to terms with myself but if we both tell ourselves that we can stick to our guns in any situation we like, then, providing we are polite, anyone who gets irate is not our problem (and is in fact likely to put himself off his game).
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
I have found that refusing deals in these small tournaments can have beneficial effects. The short stacks all want to deal, fearing that they are at a big disadvantage. The big stacks know that they are in vulnerable positions, many want to deal from their positions of current strength rather than taking a chance on losing one or two hands and then facing early elimination.
Tell them that you don't want any deals because you enjoy final table play. If they try to intimidate you, tell them that they will be free to make any deals they want as soon as they eliminate you from the event. Some of the best times I've had have been when I refused to deal and kept everyone else from dealing too. I find that the small stacks start playing either too tight or too loose, while I can play my normal game, benefitting from the advantage I have from not being short stacked. If the situation changes at some later point and you find yourself one of the shortest stacks, someone is sure to bring up the subject of dealing again. If the offer now appeals to you, you can reluctantly accept. You also can have the satisfaction of refusing their deal if you don't like it, thus telling the table that you still like your chances even with the short stack.
Now that I have your attention...........
Rounder arrived at Crystal Park at about 5:30 on Friday nite, and the two of us had a quick bite to eat and then hopped into the $100 buy-in NL Hold-em tournament at the Senior's VI event. There were about 56 entrants, everybody did the $25.00 charity rebuy and Rounder and I had a $25.00 last longer bet. While waiting for him earlier in the day, I sat down in a 3-6 HE and made $89.00 in 45 minutes. (20 BB per hour, which is much higher than my hourly average. This would be only slightly above average for Rounder)
During the early stages of the tournament, Rounder gets lucky and is seated at a table other than mine. (Grin) I play my usual brand of wide open, shoot from the hip poker, and get stung a couple times, needing to do my rebuy early in the third level. Johnny Hale's wife, Carol, calls my all in button raise against three limpers with her last T360. I show my A10o, she tables K8o, K comes on the turn and I'm down to my final T370. Two hands later, I'm in sb and Tom McEvoy is on the button. Before looking at his hand he asks me to count my remaining stack. (I knocked Tom out in the Octoberfest championship event last month when he was only two out of the money. He had promised me, jokingly I thought, that he would have his revenge) He looks at his cards and makes it T160. Blinds are 25-50. I look down and find KK, gleefully moving all in for T345. BB folds and Tom calls. I turn over KK and he looks at flop and declares that he flopped a flush draw. Turn and river no help for him and he throws away Q10d. A few minutes later Tom picks up QQ and makes an all in raise. Carol Hale calls and shows him KK, which holds up. Tom is getting that sinking feeling that it might not be his night. Next hand, I'm the button and pick up A10s with Carol Hale having limped in. I move all in, all drop to her, she calls with Q10o, and I double up again. One more hand and we go to the break. Floorman comes over and breaks our table. At the break, I have T1700 and Rounder has T2500.
When we get down to the final two tables, Rounder comes to my table and sits in the #7 seat. I am in #6. He sits down with about T2800 and I have T1800. A few hands later, I win a nice size pot and have about T3600. I tell Rounder that I am going to now wait until he's blinded out before I play another hand. Time goes by and each of us play hands against other opponents but don't get into any confrontations with each other. I am in BB when Rounder opens, UTG, for double the BB. Folded around to me and I call with K3o. Flop comes rags, we both check, Turn comes a K, I bet T400 into a T1075 pot and Rounder shoves in his last T1150. It will cost me T750 to call a pot containing T2625. If I lose, I'll still have T1850 left. If I win, Rounder is knocked out, I win the last longer and he'll have to listen to my gloating as he slinks away from the tournament table. All in all, factoring in all of this, it is an easy call. Rounder shows KQo and takes down the pot. (Rounder 1 - Big John 0) Later, everyone folds to me and I move all in with A8o on the button when we are 6 handed and the blinds are 200-400 with T50 antes. Rounder looks down to find 10-10 and decides to call. BB folds and Rounder tables his pair. I show my hand remarking proudly that I have *an* overcard. Rag flop, A on the turn, Rounder jumps four inches from his seat, expelling the breath he's been holding since before the flop, and mumbles something that I was unable to pick up. River is a blank and I've doubled through. (Rounder 2 - Big John 0) He had the best of it when the money went in, which is how I keep score. This ended our head to head confrontations.
Not too long afterwards, Rounder picked up KJo, made a play for the pot and was called by the BB. Flop comes A-rag-rag rainbow. BB checks and Rounder moves his remaining chips all in. Unfortunately, his remaining stack isn't enough to keep the BB from calling him with Q2c. Q comes on turn and Rounder is eliminated in 13th place. I win my last longer. I was eliminated in 11th shortly afterwards. I came in for T1600 with KJo on the button, first in, with blinds at 200-400 and T50 antes. BB calls. Flop is 9-9-J rainbow. BB bets T1000 and I come over the top all in for my remaining T3650. He calls and we showed our hands on the river. He had AJh and I'm outkicked and out of the tourney.
I hope all of you noticed that each time the money went into the pot with Rounder, he had the best of it. Of course, he got unlucky two of those three times. In the two hands that I played with him and in my final hand, I put the money in when I was a dog. This should prove two things at least. First, that I am an honest reporter, and second, that Rounder would have better results if he wasn't so damn unlucky. Remember Rounder, you must chant like me: "I am a lucky player and a powerful winning force surrounds me."
On Saturday, Rounder entered the early and late Pot Limit Hold-em tourneys. He made the final table in the early event, finishing 7th, but only five places were paid. In the night event, whetr they started with six tables, Rounder was the second chip leader when the play was halted and a deal was struck based on chip count. He got around $1,500 for his share. I didn't play in the early event because I couldn't get there in time and decided to play in Mexican Stud tournament being put on at the same cardroom where the house added $1000 to the prizepool in the form of 5 raffle type drawings that went to tournament entrants only. I didn't win the raffle and was knocked out early when my 3 J's on 4th street lost to a 3rd Q coming on the River.
We met Rick Nebiolo and his student while they were both tearing up the 6-12 game at Crystal Park. I couldn't help but notice at the time that Rick's 13 stacks seemed somewhat dwarfed by his student's 21 stacks. That Rick must be one goooooood teacher, you betcha!!!!!
I must say it has been along time since I have had so much fun at a poker event. It was wonderful meeting Big John, Rick Nebiolo and his student (who could teach us all a thing or two about poker.)
The quality of the fields was stunning - WSOP Champions and Hall of Fame players were everywhere. It was nothing to have 3 or 4 of these high quality players at your table at anyone time. Thing is, they get 2 cards like every one else - they just happen to know what to do with them unlike some of us mere mortals.
Things went pretty much as John said in the Friday night tourney, giving John that $25 last longer money was the low point of the trip (I should have written him a check so I could stop payment on it) - damn wish I could have thought of that at the time.
I still don't believe that guy called me with a Q2 - he was the BB and called a raise I made from early position. Then the A rag rag hit the board he checked and I went all in - he had to put me on a A small - I thought! - I think if he were a better player he would have realized he was being out played and mucked the rags! Maybe he'll learn some day to recognize when to let go of a hand.
Sat. morning I was up at 8 am and went down to check on the time the sattellites were starting and I noticed 3-6 HE table going that had the same group that was playing at 10 pm the night before - they looked tired Fri night Sat morning they looked like hell. I got on the board and sat down at 8:30 "killing time" until the satellites started. 90 min. later I cashed out for a $240 profit that is just under 27 bb an hour rate - just a bit above the rate John posted. AND I thought there was action in Phoenix. Wow - some of the moves these guys made - they played 2nd pair like I'd play a nut flush.
Sat. Afternoon tourney was a bit frustrating I was sandwiched between 2 very tough players and felt like I was in a meat grinder for 4 hours. These guys give the word relentless a whole new meaning. I got to the final table in 4th chip position and cards got eal cold for a long time. My "final hand" at the final table went something like this. One of the meat grinder (MGG) guys (the eventual winner) called my big blind I had JT - flop comes J rag rag I check MGG gets all in - now he has been making moves like this with middle pairs against checks all day and I put him on something like 77 or less or he would have raised me pre flop. I have about T$2500 about the same as Vince Brugio and one other guy I'm hoping one of the smaller stacks get knocked out so I can make the money - they were only paying 1st 5 (I was 6th at this time) If I win this one and double up it gives me a shot at a much higher placing. I think I trap MGG and call all in. He turns over AJ and I lose. I guessed wrong and was just flat out played on this hand.
Evening tourney went alot like the afternoon one except there were 3 MGG's at my table most of the time.
Interesting and important hand came about the 3/4 point of this pot limit contest. I'm in BB and have Th3h (I've been mucking hands like this all day) Hall of Fame player UTG on my left just calls my $300 blind it's passed to me, I check not believeing how cheap they let me see this flop. I say to UTG you let me in cheap, he just shrugs. Flop comes A rag rag all hearts. I flop a flush, I check UTG checks turn is a black T. I check he bets the pot I come over the top and raise pot he re-raises all in and I call, he turns over AT 2 pair I have the flush and double up giving me nearly chip lead at this time.
I'll post some of the tournament hands later but this one hand gave me a lot if chips at a critical point in the tournament.
I ended up coming in 2nd by way of a deal I maybe shouldn't have made - I'll post that later too.
some points to make--
John doesnt know how to keep score properly
Rounder types a tight game but plays looser
John makes bad last longer bets with his style
Those two are alike
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Truthfully Steve, Rounder did invite me up to his room for a shower, but I declined the invitation, fearing that his intentions might actually be something like a Vulcan mind meld.
I haven't worked for all these years, carefully building up this tremendous storehouse of poker wisdom, only to have it co-opted by the machinations of some sinister out of towner hoping for easy access to all these secrets.
I would expect that he'll try to use this forum to suggest that his only purpose in trying to get me up to his room for a shower was that he was worried that other tournament players might be distracted by some odor that he detected on me. That may work in Arizona, where tournament regulars are easily duped, but you need to do better if you want to have a mind meld with a Californian.
Big John,
Are you sure he only wanted to take you up to his room to meld with your mind and not your.....?
One can only hope.
Badger is right that i am wrong. it seems that there are not two but three that are alike:)
ok beam me up scotty
How can you say that the last longer was a bad bet when I won it? After watching me slash in and out of pots for about an hour, Rounder had completely lost all sense of hand values. It is somewhat akin to mesmerizing the deadly cobra; after it is correctly done, you can reach out and touch the snake without coming to harm. Rounder had been thoroughly preconditioned to wanting to get into pots with me; so much so, that he unknowingly lowered his otherwise impeccable standards for entering pots until he wound up in trouble with that second UTG raise with KJo. Does a raise from 2nd UTG, six handed with KJo sound like the type of hand Rounder normally plays in NL Hold-em tournaments? I think not. In addition to having the six outs of pairing his Q or 2, the all in caller also had the powerful back door flush draw after the flop.
I may have forgotten to mention in my earlier report that Rounder had made it a point to flash me his hole cards before betting all in. (odd that this was the only time he flashed his cards during the playing of a hand for the entire time he was at my table) I'm afraid that the way my eyeballs rolled into the back of my head and I started shaking my head back and forth in utter disbelief may have acted as a "tell" for the Q2c, possibly causing him to wrongly conclude that he was somehow in the lead. When I asked the dealer to "count that tiny amount of chips that the all in bettor just put in the pot please", it may have tipped the caller into seeing that the bet was so small in relation to the money already in the pot that he should call with anything. I especially regret that my foot slipped and inadvertently banged into the Q2c's foot in what he may have also misinterpreted as some kind of signal. You don't want to forget also that Rounder was terribly demoralized after I decimated his stack with my brilliant trap move where he mistakenly called with only the pocket 10's against my heavily favored A8o.
I have long contended that my last longer bets have a beneficial effect on my long term +EV. Some players, after losing a last longer bet with me, have spiralled into such tailspins that they wound up spewing their entire bankrolls in some masochistic attempt to punish themselves for making such a poor showing. I can only hope that Rounder doesn't fall victim to this common side effect. Be strong Rounder!
This post isn't directed at Big John or Rounder who clearly know what they are doing and are just kidding around, but I would like to remind less experienced players that "last longer" bets, whether for money or (my favourite overheard) "whoever is knocked out first has to sit in the back on the way home" can cost you _both_ money if you keep them in mind too much during a tournament. If your priority is to have a good time, no problem, but if you're there to win money it's an unacceptable distraction.
I don't mean to be too critical as I really enjoyed this thread but I can't help myself sometimes :-)
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
Andy,
I agree - this is the "only" last longer bet I have ever mede. I have been turning them down for a long time. I thought, after playing a satelllite with Big John and seeing his, shall we say, "Southern California" style of play it would be his only albeit unlikley chance to any type of win this weekend. It was kind of a mercy bet if you will.
Excuse me? If I hadn't practically carried you on my back by calling your all in bet when you had the KQo, how do you think you would have been able to survive the A I caught on the turn that time I trapped you with those 10's? I got your mercy! You ready for a rematch? You better report that big win to the IRS too, I know they will pay 10% if someone were to call them and "drop a dime" on you.
I'm thinking of coming back this morning - for todays NL HE and tomorrow's big one. The "soft" Southern California play is so tempting.
I wish you could have been there when I flopped a nut straight with Ad9d late in the tournament after calling a big bet from a young guy (the semi maniac we played the satellite with) we both checked the flop A hit the turn (the trap was set) and he went all is I called his "last" bet and he went nuts when I showed the NUTS. I haven't been called names like that since I was in Marine Corps boot camp. By the way he had a small A and I had him beat anyway.
John on 2nd thought I'm relocating to Crystal Park Hotel - I think I can get a good monthly rate. :-)
T3 suited because he was the BB and no one raised him. He still sounds like a solid player to me.
... at the bar where we had a drink with my student just after he got knocked out of the Friday night event. He picked up the tab so that is what I call loose. He even started to make sense on his poker ideas although it could have been the alcohol was clouding my mind. (Rounder, did you really say you like AK offsuit over AK suited because it can make two flushes, and you don't get trapped into back door draws?)
My student also found him quite charming, as she has been lurking the forum the last few months that Rounder has taken things over from Vince Lepore (her other hero along with Izmet).
Anyway, Rounder, we owe you one or two. And Big John, it was great to finally meet you. I'm glad you are not a lawyer after all. I'd hate to think of you at the bottom of the ocean with a thousand other lawyers in that joke we have all heard.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
I am ROFLMAO - now you know for sure I have no respect for suited cards. Guess I've been reading to much of TJ Cloutier's writings.
Actually I was talking about AK in tournaments - drawing in tournemants is death and I don't have the dicipline to throw away 2 over cards AND a 3 card nut flush draw. That's why I breath a sigh of releif when I see my AK unsuited it's just easier to get away from.
Guess I should start a "don't believe in suited cards society" now that we know for sure the world is round. All the flat earthers will be sure to join with me.
:-)
Rounder,
I haven't played too many tournaments in recent years after some great success a while back in some decent size limit holdem and Omaha tournaments. If I do start playing them again, I'll probably stick to No Limit and Pot Limit holdem games (along with limit Omaha H/L to give Badger a run for his money).
In the meantime, I will definitely keep your stuff on file among others. I can't quibble with much here.
Regards,
Rick
Big John,
It was great meeting you. Too bad you didn't swing by the bar after getting knocked out. We would have bought a bevarage for you since Rounder was still steaming about your play and the fact you lasted longer. He wants revenge.
BTW, my student is good but not that good. She never had more than three plus racks in front of her. However, she did win big at Hollywood Park yesterday. Don't mention her name for IRS reasons please (and faagetabout that 10% rat fee - you can't enjoy it if you are dead and you are one big target).
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
I'm sorry I didn't stop by the bar too. I had just assumed that Rounder had invited you up to his room to shower like he did me. ;-)
As for how many racks your student may have had, truthfully, I really only noticed one particular "rack" when I was standing there watching her play. If you claim she had only three, I'll believe you. I do know that she had quite a few more chips than her mentor.
IRS? I consider it my patriotic duty to ensure that all citizens pay their rightful share. The 10% reward just makes doing my duty that much more of a pleasure.
"I really only noticed one particular "rack" when I was standing there watching her play. "
And please pray tell oh big one which "rack" may that be! Got any photos?
Vince.
Vince it was the rack of lamb we had for dinner.
Now behave.
Ok John, I'll make sure you pay tax on that $25 last longer bet you extracted from me. Let's see - 10% of oh I'll figure it out later.
As for the shower - I don't want these people to get the wrong Idea. At the time I was "still" playing in this satellite that John just got knocked out of with a K2 (we should have had the LL bet in this one) or something like that. He said somehting to someone about having to go home to shower and I offered him the use of my room while I was still playing.
As for the LL bet after seeing a true Southern California Maniac in action (a sight to behold) I would have given you 3 to 1 odds if you had asked for them I thought it was a sure thing. Actually the last "sure thing" I bet on was in 1992 - I had a $2K bet on George Bush to beat the current gas bag in the white house.
Oh - I did look up maniac in th edictionary and it is true your picture IS there.
Cheers John - had a huge win last night and I was toying with the possipility of coming back for the big one today - to many things came up and just can't make it.
7CS tournament, 25-50 level, I have about T800 and a decent lead over the rest of the table.
3rd street I have (QsJs)10s. Bring in is a duece and bets 10. player with a Kh calls, next player with a ten raises to 25. I see another player behind me with a six getting ready to call. I call the raise and the bring in calls, 5 players. I like my hand since ALL the spades are live and most of my straight and pair cards are still live. If one of them hadn't have raised I probably would have. This is a good chance to perhaps win a really big pot and get a bigger lead.
4th: Player with the Kh catches the Kd, pairing his doorcard. The player with the ten catches an ace. Other players catch bricks. I catch the Qd. All the spades and queens are still live, but one King, the Kc is out to the player with the six. KK on board slowly looks through his hole cards (after shuffling) and then reluctantly bets a measly 25$ instead of the allowed 50$. WEAK, WEAK, WEAK!!!!!! Don't show such weakness when I am in the pot or you might just get raised!!!! Kings bets 25 and the A10 ooo's and aaah's then folds. When it gets to me I unhesitatingly make it 75$ to go by raising the maximum amount. The player with K6 looks at me and says "you really want me out?" and then folds. Player with open kings thinks and thinks and then finally lays down his hand.
Against a better player I would not have attempted this move, but his actions just cried out "please take the pot from me, I don't want it". If I actually Believed he had trip kings I would have folded.
Moral of the story: if you pair your doorcard, and you're going to bet, BET THE MAX.
Dave in Cali
Interesting. Although I play pot-limit stud tourneys, this kind of situation comes up when I pair my doorcard. It is in fact one of very few situations in which I bet less than the pot (about half normally). If a weak player sees you doing this and then you fold on 5th because you haven't got the goods, next time when you have, he's dead. And a good player gains no information from the size of bet.
I'm not sure I would propose the same moral. My view is, if you're going to bet, bet the same whether you've got them or you haven't. I might be slightly more inclined to bet the max with trips when the fourth one is visible but that's it. You got a good read on your opponent but if he'd bet the max with the same reluctance wouldn't you have just taken him for $25 more ?
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
If he had bet the max I would have strongly considered folding. The reason is that he was a weak player, and weak players very often slowplay big pairs on 3rd, no matter how "incorrect" that might be. I think if he had made trips he would have bet the max.
If he has trip kings (even if one is dead) I don't know if I really want to try to draw out on him heads up. Then I would HAVE TO make a flush or full to beat him, and draw to it heads up. If he had bet the max I could be almost 100% sure that no one else at the table would call. If I truly believed he had trips I would have folded. I might be drawing to beat him, but I might get there and get beaten by kings full anyway.
My tendency in the past has been on the side of caution in these situation (ie paired door card) but when someone exudes such obvious weakness I have to pounce on the opportunity.
Dave in Cali
Hi, all. I'm a low-limit HE ring player who's never played in a tournament (there are none where I live), but I'll be heading to Vegas in early January. I'd like to know the best tournament book for beginners that teaches the fundamentals of the tournament game as well as what to expect in a tourney so I don't look out of place. Thanks.
The books that were recommended to me when I asked the same question are: Tournament Poker by Slyvester Suzuki and Pot Limit & No Limit Poker by Stewart Reuben and Bob Ciaffone. I just recently purchased the Tournament Poker, so can not yet comment on it. I've read some of the Ciaffone book and the advice seems pretty solid, although you will have to make adjustments to certain information to have it apply to a tournament setting. Best of luck.
James Flames
NT, but since you clicked here you might as well mention your opinion. :)
Final table of the afternoon Seniors IV tournament.
6 players left and they are only paying top 5.
Blinds are 150/300 and I come in for a pot raise with JJ blinds fold and player to my right calls. Only caller is is a world class player - flop is T - 9 - 5 he checks I make a small bet he calls I am really worried about falling onto a trap here with this call. Turn is an 8 I still have an over pair I put this player on a A-T or a set at this point - he makes a pot size bet and I go all in. My guess is I have a 50/50 chance here open ended straight and 2 J outs for a sure win plus I could possibily still have the best hand.
Comments:
I'll post the rest of the hand later.
Rounder,
Please tell us what your stack size was and whether this is No-Limit. Then I'll have a shot at an answer.
Andy.
Andy sorry it's pot limit and I had about T$10K.
Hmm. A little tricky. Is K-Q a hand he might have ? Maybe not with his call-call pre-flop. How much of his stack is he risking, all of it ? In my limited experience, if I'm playing against a top player, and there are one or two even in the small buy-in tournaments over here, I'm even more inclined to bet big. I don't want to get into the kind of guessing game you find yourself in on the turn against someone who could easily outplay me. So I would bet the pot on the flop (to hell with it, if he's got a set you're going down). If he raises, or calls and bets into me on the turn, that's a really tough one. His perception of you is a big factor.
In the spot you were actually in on the turn, I wouldn't have said the J was a sure winner, apart from that - it has to depend on your read of the situation at the table.
I'm not very confident with that answer so I'd love to hear what more experienced players think.
Andy.
There is no way he is on KQ - he has T$5K more tham me and in with a Small AJ on down or a pair of some sort or else he is raising preflop. Also I can't see him with a KK to TT - this would also get a pre flop raise in a short handed table.
I have to put him on a set or AT - nothing else makes sense and this guy ain't looking for any type of draw here after the flop.
He knows very little about me.
JJ is a real trap hand, as you noticed. If you are going to play that hand, you have to either commit to it and be willing to bet it strong on the flop if you have an overpair to the flop (otherwise, what flop are you hoping for?), or throw it away to any sort of action. To bet it small on the flop and then play it all-in on the turn seems a little inconsistant. You couldn't have a strategy to give him a cheap turn card in hopes it would induce a bluff, cause JJ is not strong enough for that kind of play, especially against a world class player.
A Poker Guy!
Game is pot limit if I didn't say earlier.
Your analysis is good here - I was committed to the hand at the turn what ever he did I liked my chances.
It was a bit of cat and mouse here - since no big cards came out I was sure he was on a smaller pair or AT (if he had more like a set he was successfuly setting a trap for me) hands he would call with in that position in a short handed table. My small bet was to induce an all in bet here I not only thought I had a reasonable chance of being on the lead I had 10 outs for a sure winner.
What about JQ - that's the nuts on the turn.
If I were to fold after his bet on the turn, I would do so only if I was fairly certain that was his holding. Only a Q saves you.
No way this level of player would play a hand like JQ or for that matter KQ, KJ or KT in this position with this chip count. I ruled it out immediately.
He is on an AT on down or a pair in the hole nothing else made sense.
Here is how it ended.
The river card was a 7 giving my JJ a win as the opponent had a set of 5's to my straight - actually he out played me and I out drew him - I put him on a few possible hands and one of them was a set the rest I would beat.
If I had $5K more he would have been out and I would have cashed as they were only paying 5 in this one.
How can you ever rule out ANY hand by a world class player in a big bet poker tournament. They are playing the player, their stack, and the situation much more than their cards. You know that. It may be UNLIKELY that he has QJ or KQ, etc., but you can never be certain unless you are against a rock.
I once got busted out by TJ at the final table of a pretty big tournament when I had AT and the board came 558Tx. He was in the big blind and called my substantial button raise with A5s. Both of us had a lot of chips and my raise, which was 4x the big blind, represented about 30% of his stack.
I shook my head in disbelief as I thought that world class players don't CALL a raise with A-rag in no-limit. Never say never. Hope you have continued success at the Seniors.
A5 is not an uncommon hand to play aggressively toward the end in NL. Much more common than KQ or QJ.
A Poker Guy!
I don't think CALLING out of the BB against a button raiser is aggressive. Maybe put me all-in if he thinks I'm stealing. If an Ace had flopped, he was going for most of his stack as a big underdog.
Mike,
I agree with you on the pre flop you can't put anyone on a hand in Big Bet poker - but we had seen the flop and were heads up - My thinking was with this board T 9 5 rainbow. If he had a big pair I expect he would have come in for some kind of reraise per flop and the flop play said he was setting a trap (common in PL Big bet poker) when I made my bet on the turn and he called I still didn't know if my over pair was good I still put him on an AT as the most likley hand. The 7 made my hand I had 10 yous and one came good.
He just wouldn't call my flop bet in his chip position if he didn't have something for real in his hand.
How come you didn't cash in the tournament? What hand got you or did you just get bled dry?
Someone who makes a bionic outdraw like yours is supposed to cash. It just isn't right if you don't!
Mo,
It was a Seniors 50+ event and there were no women willing to admit they were over 50 s0 we started with 30 some players. They decided to only pay the 1st 5.
I got knocked out a few hands later on a hand I'll post later today. I thought I had the best of it when I made my big bet but I just missed.
Bionic Outdraw ???? What is this?
Bionic outdraw.
Nothing personal intended.
I think JJ should beat 55 every now and then - especially when all my tournament chips are on the line and I have JJ.
I look forward to your next post.
All of these hands happened within a whirlwind 36-hour time period this weekedn at the USPC at the Taj. Comments, criticism, (and especially sympathy) are welcome.
$1000 NLH SATELLITE #1
$110 + $10 Single Table Event, Winner Take All
I play pretty well despite modest cards and survive a few all-ins until its down to three-handed. 4000 in chips in play and its me (stack=1275), a solid guy (1725) and new guy (1000) who is (as usual) having the deck run over him in his first-ever no-limit game. Blinds are 150/75. I pick up KK in the big blind. New guy raises it to 400 from the btton and I figure the best way to get him all-in is to push right in now. I don't want to give the BB a cheap shot to break us both and new guy is just starting to realize that he is folding too much as we have take turns stealing his blinds. BB folds and NG calls in a flash. I ask "Do you have a pair?", to figure whether I am up against a 3-outer, a 2-outer, or a prayer-outer. He says, "I have Aces". He ain't lying, and no help other than a flush draw on the turn comes for me. I'm down to 275, but I have the button.
I know RZ will chide me for this, but I muck my 82 offsuit and decide to take my chances in the BB. SG folds to NG's big blind and I feel pretty smart when I pick up JT of diamonds in the big blind. SG rasies to 500 from the button and NG calls from the small blind. I love ny equity, and this is winner-take-all, so I overcall. I think the flop is ALL ME when it comes down Jc and two baby diamonds. I think otherwise and call for a diamond when the two other guys get all their chips in. The diamond gets there and I take down 825, with the solid guy's KJ besting the new guys pocket 8s for the rest.
I'm back in action, but outchipped 3 to 1. The blinds go up to 100-200 and then 200-400. I steal a couple and win an all-in where my AT beats his A8 when neither of us improve. After a little more back-and-forth, I'm up 2500 to 1500 in chips. I get AQ in the big blind and can't wait to get the guy all-in as both of us have been moving on the binds with (I presume) any Ace, pair, or decent face. He beats me too it with his first action and I call with glee. Glee becomes misery when he announces "Pocket Queens". Another flush draw is all I pick up and I'm down 3 to 1 in chips. I go all-in on Kx the next hand and he folds.
He goes all-in the next hand and I call with A4s. It's a perfect match-up for me when he tables a Q4-off. I make the mistake of saying "You have Queen outs.", which comes on the turn to put me out of my misery. At least I made a $120 saver with the guy when we were near equal in chips.
$1000 NLH SATELLITE #2
Its down to 4-handed and me (1200) and another guy with about 1500 are taking the initiative against the shorter stacks. The blinds are 75/150 and the other big stack folds to my button. I raise to 400 with J5s. The SB folds and Mike Laing goes all-in from the BB. Its only 150 more to me and I call, and tell Mike "I know you can't have any of what I got." His KQo is no match for my suited gumbo when I flop a five and now I am in control.
The blinds go up to 100/200 and I lose control when I get blinded for a couple of rounds The smaller stack doubles through the other guy and I'm suddenly in third place with 1225. I go all-in with KJ of hearts on the button and get called by the BB. His winning pair of tens on a board of ATxxx is particularly painful when e show me the QT of HEARTS. NEXT!
$200 + $20 (with 2 rebuys) SUPER SATELLITE
There are 37 entrants and 40 rebuys for a total pool of $15,700. I don't know the exact payout schedule, but I thin it is top two finishers each get a 7500 lammer amd split the extra cash. We start with T1000 in chips and I immediately take a rebuy (any time at T1000 or below). I play uninspired poker for about 75 minutes and alomost quit when I break out on a failed move at a big pot. I decide to take a shot and make my last rebuy for another T1000 since the blinds are only 150/75 (20 minute rounds) and I have the button, and some pretty weak players at my table.
On the first hand, I slip into an unraised pot after 2 middle and 1 late position limper with KdQc. The big calls and we take a five-handed flop of QdTh2d. It is checked to the aggressive guy to my right and he bets 500. I think "PERFECT" and move all-in. It is folded around to him and he makes a reluctanct call for another 350. I sweat a bit when the Ace of diamonds comes on the river. He mucks when I show my hand after he hesitates. I stack my 2500 pot and make the transition from pretender to contender!
I get high-carded for a table change. With my new stack and new table, I start to play more inspired poker and steadily build my stack to an above-average 5000. The blinds are up to 200/400 and they are dropping like flies. The field is down to 15 and I have dwindled to about 4300 in chips when the follwoing hand comes up.
I am in the SB and the chip leader, Charlie Brahmi (1999 limit HE WSOP champion) makes it 800 to go from one off the button. I have AK, but decide to just call and see the flop; maybe trap him with an A-rag, or get away if I don't improve. The BB (a weakie) folds.
Flop comes A95 rainbow. Thinking that he's like most tourney pros, I guess that Charlie figures an unknown entity like me as a weakish player, so I check to him. As expected he tries to bully me with a 1500 bet into the 1800 pot. I come over the top with confidence for all my chips and its another 2000 to Charlie.
He grumbles about "overcommitting", counts down his stack (about 8000 left), checks the clock, checks the other table, and basically sweats before making the call and declaring. "I guess I need a 3." I say "You have Ace-3." And he says "I have 9-3." So he's got two more outs, which don't get there and there's a new chip leader at our table.
The blinds are about to go up to 300/600 and people start squeezing a bit to make the "final table". I decide to take advantage of my new image and stack and go to work at accumulating chips. Charlie takes a bad beat and hits the rail and I am the only aggressor at the table.
I raise a weak middle position limper to 1000 from one-off the button holding the 87 of hearts. The button, the weakish player with a stack of about 5k cold calls. The blinds and the limper fold and I'm out of position with rags.
The flop is a not-so-bad JdJc8d. I push all-in. He almost mucks it and then goes for his last 4.2k. Gotta be a flush draw and I am sent back to the land of short stacks when a diamond hits the turn and I failed to redraw. He had Ad5d, so I wasn't in great shape on the flop. I make a mental note that I should have avoided th larger stacks, but take solace in the fact that I was getting the best of it when the money went in and playing to win.
Since everyone now thinks I am tilt-guy (They gave me a jack on that hand), I am in a terrible position to steal just as the blinds go up to 300/600. I wait for a real hand, and get nothing. After getting blinded down to 2700, I take the first shot I have to show aggression and raise all-in with T9s from 4th position (we're down to six-handed). I get picked off by AK in the SB and make a pair of nines to lose to a pair of Kings.
I'll post a little more later, including some interesting hands from the $500 buy-in NLH tournament. Don't worry, it only gets worse.
Michael Seven,
That was greatly appreciated. Now win something and make us all feel real good!
Good Luck!
Vince.
there going to have to change the endings when they make the major motion picture. great stories.
scott
damn. i wish i could delete it and repost it.
scott
Don't you Columbia math geeks take any English classes? You still got it wrong, it should be they're, the contraction for THEY ARE.
ouch, and i thought my joke was so clever. i guess i'll just have to try harder next time.
scott
Sounds like you need the odds to favor you once in a while. Anyway, I like how you picked off the bully with the 93. Who does he think he is anyway? It figures, a limit player would play a 93.
Michael,
The good news is that it really doesn't appear that you made any mistakes, as least not as the stories have been told. So, bad luck can change instantly, just wait an instant and hope for better.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The following situation occurred during a 7 stud single table winner take all satellite at Foxwoods WPF. Although this was 7 stud I believe the question to be applicable to all games.
5 players remaining.
25 ante.
50 bring in.
100-200 level.
Me: Chip Leader: T1200
3 players ~ even
1 player T$75 after ante.
Short stack, xx/2h brings it in for T75 (all in).
Me: Next to act Qs,Qd/5c - Raise to T175.
The rest all fold.
Before the next card is dealt the player to my left says sarcastically;"I hope you can beat him. You should have let us call and try to knock him out." I very politely said "Mind your own g--d--- buisness. Malmuth and Sklansky taught me how to play I don't need.." No I did not say that. I wanted to but didn't. I just nodded and as I was going to say something the dealer dealt fourth street. My card QH! That shut me up! I wanted to say to the guy on the right you were right I should have let you all play. But didn't and the dealer continued to deal. On the river I caught the 5s giving me Queens full of 5's. I began to laugh and was about to say something to the fellow on my left when the all in player said I have a straight flush. He did! A,2,3,4,,5 of hearts. He caught the 4h on sixth street and 5 hearts on the river. Wow!
Of course the results of the hand are not really important except that they represent an extreme situation from hand strength point of view. The question is: Was the player on my left correct when he said I should have just called and allowed others to call behind me? If yes then why?
My own point of view is that he was right but for the wrong reason. My raise just about insured that only a better hand would call. With three under cards remaining to act it was pretty likely that I had the best hand. I had nothing to worry about from the all in player. No way to make any more money or lose anymore to him. So there was no advantage to me playing heads up against him. There may have been at least one player that may have called trying knock this player out and would probably follow the incorrect check it down to the river strategy. If I limped someone else may have raised, allowing me to reraise. All factors considered I believe a call and not a raise was the correct strategy in this situation.
Comments welcomed.
Vince.
BTW- As an anecdote to this story. I ended up splitting this satellite with another player. He:$300 Me: $250 Chip count He:T2500 Me:T1500. I set the deal. Was it a good one?
Anecdote #2. All the other players in the satellite made a $10 second place side pot. I never enter these second place side pots. The chip leader forgot that I was not in the sdie pot when I proposed the deal and added the side pot to the Tournament prize. I promptly told him that none of that side money was mine. It belonged to the player that came in second of those in the side pot. Since all the other players that were in the satellite had left the table he calimed the $70 for himself. I didn't care nor did I want any part of the $70. About 30 min. later the player that finished third in the tournament came back and said that he was owed the second place money because the player I split with was actually the tournament winner. Both of these fellows tried to elicit my help in determining who was correct. I know who was correct. The player finishing third. But I said to both of them that I wanted no part of the money or anything else that went with it. I recieved $250 and that is what I had coming. I am now very glad that I don't participate in these side pots. How many of you feel that they sre worthwhile entering?
Vince,
"All factors considered I believe a call and not a raise was the correct strategy in this situation."
You wouldn't of had a story to write though. Not that it matters but what were the other clowns upcards, that should of influenced your call or raise a little bit. Vince and I'll probably see you again at the big FW.
paul
The question has a precise answer (as do most non headup situations given known parameters, Mike Caro's protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.) That is that when a player is all in in a tournament, you should be should be slightly more apt to let others in to beat him, (especilly near the end of the tournament) as opposed to how you would play in a normal ring game EXCEPT when the tournament has only one winner. In that case you should tend to play your regular game (unless exceptional circumstances involving other players dictate otherwise).
David,
Again I must thank you. Seriously. This was unquestionably the answer I was hoping to recieve. Your response provides very important concepts that I will use in the future. Must be why I buy your books.
Vince.
David,
What is the reasoning behind your aforementioned exception? Is it because if there is only one winner that any opportunity to knock someone out is more valuable than a chance at winning more chips? Is this a clear cut choice or does it depend on the payoff structure? Phil
Phil,
Perhaps I can answer. I was going to say that, in a proportional payoff tournament, you could debate whether a call would be better to help others knock the player out. I still think you're better off raising if you have a strong hand but there are grounds for argument as getting someone knocked out improves your EV slightly. In a winner-take-all situation there's no case at all. You have to get all the chips, it is virtually irrelevant how many players the remaining chips are divided among.
I hear this kind of comment quite a lot. It is normally made by the weak and players who don't understand how to play to win. These people normally dress up their feeble self-interest with "it's better for everyone to knock him out". Potential responses you can use are 1) No, not everyone, everyone except the guy we are implicitly colluding against and 2) I don't care about everyone, only me - anyone got a problem with that ? If anyone looks bigger or harder than you on the table don't say anything (my preferred option).
Just watch these people when they have a medium stack and a heads-up opponent has a small one. When they check, then you know how much they care about "everyone".
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
I won a little limit hold-em tourney today, but there was a hand midway through where I was all-in that I thought others might like to give an opinion. On this particular hand, I eliminated a player who I rated a borderline moron/maniac, but it's my play that might be in question.
I've got 1600 in chips, with the blinds at 300-500. I'm in the small blind. All fold around to a late-middle-position player who I've observed before in previous tourneys almost invariably overplaying cheesy hands.
He raises the big blind to 1000. Everyone folds around to us in the blind. Facing a bet of 700 more, with 1300 left in my stack, I look down at Q-10 of spades. The vibe I'm getting at my left says the big blind is going down. I raise another 600 all-in and the big blind in fact folds. The maniac calls the 600 (of course), putting him also all-in.
I flop the straight and he is out. In an ironic twist, the madman huffs up from the table with "Q-10 is the hand to go all-in with huh?" I was tempted to say it was a 2-1 favorite over 4-5 offsuit, but instead just said "ship it."
So, from the analysts, I'd like to hear some opinions on how bad that play was.
I think you both played at the same level for that hand. I'm not sure I could clearly pick a better player for that hand. He dragged you down to his level and you were lucky to come out alive. If bad players wanna do crazy things, let them and hope they knock out all the good players in the process. Be selective and wait for your opportunity ... they are easy prey and you really want them to have a lot of chips when they make a mistake against you.
A Poker Guy!
QTs is a drawing hand plain and simple. Not a hand I want to go all in with unless there is a very good reason. You may have had a tell on the BB and that influenced your decison to raise and face the luck of the draw. I would rather he called if I was going all in with Q high. Even though you classify the other player as a "moron" it is not dificult to imagine him easily having a better starting hand. OJ, Kxs etc are common hands for "morons" to raise with and they beat your hand. Of course, who did you say won the tournament?
Enough said.
Vince.
Earl,
I'm going to be in the minority here and tell you that I would have done the same thing. With him having a tendency to overplay "cheesy" hands, you don't figure to be too far out on a limb here. If you are going to make a play here, the raise is absolutely obligatory. (If he were truly a moron, he might just fold) You are certainly going to have to make a stand soon anyway due to your small stack.; why not make it head's up against someone you believe to have questionable poker judgement? By committing your last money, you discourage the BB from calling with some hands he might have taken against the moron. Glad it worked out for you. Congratulations on the win!
I totally agree.
John,
Although I don't like the play I have to agree with the "making a stand" part of your response. In fact after thinking a little more about it I believe it is a close decision that you just have to be there to make.
Vince.
John - this proves great minds do think alike (so to weak minds) see my answer below - I think the trip to LA has fuzzed up my thinking???
Of course if he had raised with KJ I would have accused him of a bad play.
I would have played the hand the same way - if you are sure his play is like a random number generator. If so, Q-10 suited is not that bad - if you are heads up.
How did you get to raise him 600 to go all in? Obviously a typo.
Moron commenting on a Moron? Is that an oxymoron? Or maybe a Double Moron. A double moron = an intelletual you know.
Vince.
"Late" Tournament play is comprised of 90% knowing/reading yout opponents and 40% playing your cards. (Yogi Berra Math)
You did the right thing here you were fav. with 2 over cards to his crap hand.
Cheers.
What did the other player have? Did he really have 45o, or was that just a joke? He made the comment about QTs being a bad hand to go all in with, but did he really go all in with a worse hand pre-flop and then make that statement?
A Poker Guy!
He never showed the hand -- nor would I have expected him to.
Thanks for the opinions; on retrospect, I think it's a still a close decision, but I thought I might hear from some of the +/-EV folks who would put that into numbers for me.
Epiloque: Today I played in a 5-table 7-stud tourney. It paid 6 places. We get down to 9 players, 4 at our table, 5 at the other. I have the chip lead with about 4700, antes of 200, low card brings it in for 400, 800/1600. For the first time all day, I'm dealt A-A in the pocket. I bring it in for the full 800. I'm called by only one player, a lady at the other end. On 4th street, I bet again. On 5th street I hit the 3rd Ace, bet her all-in and ask her if she can beat a set of Aces. As she calls, she says, "I don't know, I haven't looked." She meant it! On 6th and 7th street, she hits a runner-runner straight, 9-high. Down to 1500.
After pumping it back up to 2200 with an ante steal, I am dealt K-K in the pocket (2 hearts), and raise the bring-in. He calls, we're headsup. Next card is another heart. I bet again, he calls. On 5th street I hit the 4th heart, bet my last 400 chips and tell him I've got a pair of Kings. He says "I don't care," and calls. On 6th street he makes an open pair of 4s ... I catch blanks on the last two streets. He shows down 5s and 4s. Exit Earl in 9th.
"tell him I've got a pair of Kings."
Never ever do that again! It is a sure killer!
Vince
No. In any tourney when the antes/blinds are super-high and/or when you are about to go all-in, you would much rather do anything to convince your opponent to fold than to make a call with cards to come (unlike some who might think it unethical, if it was legal to show my hand to a headsup opponent, I would).
Particularly in stud, where your opponent is rarely much more than 2-1 dog, you would rather he or she fold in that situation. Of course I'd never tell them anything in a cash game, nor in any other contest but stud. (See Sklansky's Theory of Poker for more discussion of the idea that a fold can be better than a call even when you are the favorite.)
If, on the other hand, you are referring to it being "killer" from a superstitious standpoint, I'm not much of a believer. On the other hand, maybe I should adopt Johnny Chan's lucky orange for next year's WSOP ....
"If, on the other hand, you are referring to it being "killer" from a superstitious standpoint, "
Of course, from a suprstitious point of view. The fact that you are not "much of a believer" is your problem. Johnny Chan, if I'm not mistaken, has won the WSOP. And you? Maybe a "lucky orange" isn't a bad idea. I know that Sklansky will agree that it is better for your opponent to fold in certain situations, especially in stud. I agree also. But if you defy the Poker Gods you may end up in Poker Hell lucky orange or not.
Vince.
There used to be a magazine called "The Poker Devil". I believe its motto was something like, "there may not be a poker God, but there sure is a poker devil."
Yeah, I'm a poker fan of Chan's. Anyone who can win back-to-back WSOP events and finish 2nd in the next one deserves poker immortality. There's an article about Chan by Peter Alson posted on my website. You'll note that the "lucky orange" was more to make other players think that Chan believed in luck while he methodically worked them over.
In any event, if the above was a slam, I'll note that in my only WSOP championship appearance, I was one of the leaders after Day one and my demise when we were down to 5 tables was a result of my own mistakes, rather than merely bad luck.
The only part of luck that I accept is that usually I am at war with luck, and thus, it's my goal to always be in contention near the end of a tourney in order to win when the luck breaks even.
"In any event, if the above was a slam, "
Slam Bam thank you mam!
Earl,
I comment. Sometimes it comes out as a slam. Not meant to harm. I posted a thread once that stated that this is a tough forum. I still believe that is true. I also want to keep it tough. If you think I am the type that is superstitious or believes in the supernatural well... Who ya gonna call!
Vince.
BTW - I know that I started all this with a silly comment. So?
I believe that if you expose your hole cards in an attempt to affect future action, your hand can and should be ruled dead. Just saying that you have a pair of K's is an entirely different thing. I love his "I don't care" remark.
"Just saying that you have a pair of K's is an entirely different thing."
Really. So do you think that this was ethical? BTW - At FW WPF's if you show your hand before the action is complete they do not kill your hand. you are still eligible to win the hand. But they impose a 10 minute penalty in which you must ante or blind as the case may be and you but unable to play the hands.
Vince.
I agree that you should be able to say anything during the play of a hand between two headsup opponents. I'm not sure I'd take it to the extent that Puggy Pearson did during the 1973 WSOP, but still, there's no rule that I know of that says you can't say anything to your opponent.
Loved the "I don't care" also. Wasn't sure that the "I didn't look" could be topped, but maybe he was trying.
It was a bad play.
QT has a pot equity of only a little more than 50% against a RANDOM hand. Assuming that this guy will fold some of his cheesiest hand, such as the 72, T3, etc., i.e., the worst 10-20%, QT is probably 50% at best, and is maybe even a dog to his average hand.
Since you were the SB, by folding here you pick up a chance to wait quite a few hands before you have to commit. You will likely find a better spot than this to do it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
My own analysis showed that it was a marginally -EV play, just based on hand value vis-a-vis pot size.
As Big John and Tom noted though, the play may have positive expectation in future tourneys, simply by stiffing this player from bluffs and semi-bluffs when the blinds are high as compared to stack size.
However, I think most of us would like to know how you calculated the "50% pot equity against a random hand"?
I don't necessarily think its a bad play. If you plan on playing with this guy again and against the same group I think this isn't a bad image play. Lets look at it from the following perspective(s)
1) The clown actually has a ligitimate hand. TT - AA. Psychologically he might stop trying to steal blinds from you in the future when he is correct to do so. This is to your benefit.
2) You're playing against a much better range of hands than you normally would. At your limit you'll see two rounds of hands at most. I'd rather be playing against someone who sometimes plays cheese than a rock. Two rounds later you might be against Tight Tim, who will have that KK against your Q - T.
3) You set up an image of fear/respect against some other players. Other players seeing Q - T may be less inclined to steal because they think you might be "crazy" enough to call.
4) You've got to start accumulating chips soon. And if you get knocked out you might make more than in a cash game, (depending on the size of the tournament).
A tournament player I respect once told me. "You've got to take some chances. The real money in a tournament is in the top 3 places." She's won several of them so I just think you made a good read. (If he had a legitimate hand he would have shown it,to assuage his ego; you caught him bluffing. )
Good luck, Tom B.
Hey Y'all,
I played in my first NLH tourney this weekend. I won, splitting the pot with another guy. I had no idea what I was doing, but it was fun. I got a bit of advice by panning through some of your posts, so thanks. I made some moves with moderate cards, having not received monsters, and they worked out. Now I'm hooked like a fish for the rest of you to feed off of until I figure out what the heck I'm doing. I'll be back soon with specifics. Phil
Well done Phil. Let us know of any interesting hands. Though by the result, it seems that you played them fine :-)
Andy.
To continue from the thread below...
I put my name on the list to play $25/$15 blind pot limit holdem, but the game doesn't get off so I sit in the $15/$30 game to cleanse my satellit bad beats. I buy in for $500 and ask for all $5 checks.
In the first 1/2 hour, I manage to develop a very strong table image (despite drinking 3 beers) by showing down 4 winners after betting aggressively the whole way. This table is WEAK-TIGHT, with only one strong player. And its $10/$15 blinds, so stealing is very profitable, since most of the time its I raise, the blinds call, and then check-fold the flop. Sometimes they check-call the flop and check-fold the turn. Cha-ching! It's $60 or $90 profit nearly every time. Me and the other guy take turns and exchange knowing smirks at our good fortune.
I'm up over $500 in about 90 minutes, and I don't think I've shown down another hand! In one pot, I limp on the button after three callers with A5s. The blinds call and we take a raggy six-handed flop. Its checked to me and I decide to take the free card and see if I can pick up a flush draw. The turn gives me the flush draw, and I can'e help but bet it when it is checked around to me again. I declare out loud "I must confess that THIS time I'm stealing!" But nobody believes me and they all fold.
This continues until a guy who sat down with THREE cocktails starts to change the dynamic of the game. After being at the table for an hour, he sees me win/steal another pot and says "You haven't shown down a winner since I got here." I reply "I haven't shown down a loser either, at least you and me are drinking and having fun." The game starts to change such that I have to play well to win, so I cash out a $625 winner and go sweat the high limit games for while.
I watch Phil Hellmuth and some AC locals play $400/$800 stud. The ANTES are a black chip for this game. As you would imagine, the play is very aggressive and you would be amazed at the garbage that is shown down. Phil is ucharacteristically silent, and everbody at the table is needling him. Must be stuck. I leave at about 2:30 am and head to my room to rest up for the 11:00 tournament.
Me and my roomate Robert "the Terminator" Hanley get up at 9:00 to get breakfast before the $500 NLH tournament. But we decide to play a single table $1000 no-limit satellite instead. They tell us that since the tournament is going to start, we are playing only 10 minute rounds. I get off to a great start when I I get QJd in the small blind on the first round. Three guys call the $25 BB and then the button makes it $75 to go. I decide to call, since it is only an extra $60, or 15% of my stack and I expect a multi-way pot.
The BB and one of the limpers call and we take a 4-handed flop of JT9 rainbow. I move all-in for $325 with my top-pair, open-ender since there is already $300 in the pot. The BB says, "Let's Gamble." and calls with K8. The turn is an 8 and the river is a K and my straigh beas his two pair. I've almost tripled up on the first hand.
I sit back and let a few guys knock each other out until the blinds go up to $50/$100. My buddy Robert goes all-in under the gun for his last $275. It is folded to me in the big blind and I say "I hope I have something to bust you with." I find pocket Jacks and decide that is good enough when his KQs doesn't improve. The highlight of my brief trip is having the opportunity to declare publicly "Robert Hanley, report to the rail." He's a great sport and even brings me back a nasty bacon-egg-and cheese sandwich.
I get some nice big-ace hands and steal a few pots, win a few showdwons against short stacks and soon its down to three of us and I have almost half the chips with 2k. I post the BB of 150 and the button folds. The SB, a wacko guy who I've seen around makes it 500 to go from the small blind. He has about 600 left and I put him all-in without hesitation wehn I find pocket eights. He calls reluctantly and asks if I have a pair. I say "Eights." and he calls loudly to the poker gods for a SIX! His prayer is unanswered on the flop, so he tries again on the turn. No dice. He tries it again on the river. If you read my post below, you know the outcome:
SIX!
His set beats my eights and I'm down to a 900 short stack. I fold my small blind and then gol all-in on the button with KJ. The wacko guy calls from the BB nd I have brief hopes of doubling through until he tables two Queens.
Michael 7 report to the Rail!
Another close but no CEEgar. I get my seat assignment and sit down for the $500 buy-in no-limit event, and hope for a change of luck.
I see John Hanley, co-owner of the Diamond Club in NYC, rush by my seat and just make the tournament start after playing pot-limit all night in NYC and driving down for the tournament.
Three minutes after the "Shuffle up and Deal!", he is walking the other way and says to me "Glad I made it down here in time, I just got busted out on pocket Kings against Jon Bonetti's pocket Aces."
Nothing soothes your personal misfortune like the even-worse luck of your neighbors;-)
More to come on the big NLH event. But no cliffhangers here... I sucked.
About five minutes
Nice report. Looking forward to more. I'll be there this weekend to see the action.
at least you tore up the ring game. i can't wait to hear the finale. good foreshadowing (i learned about that in english class.) with the "no cliffhangers here...i sucked."
scott
scott,
you ought to take a run down there Sat. lots of busses from ny. academy has lots of quick returns. you might squeeze in with the big crowds and go unnoticed. at worst, you'll see the finals from the glass (2 feet from the action) plus the bus company/casino gives you $15 bucks and a free meal. of course that's if you do n othave to study for finals. one of our summer lab students is in the physics dept at col too. nice place
Mikey, hey Mikey!
Keep'em coming! I'm lovin' your reports. I'm seriously considering A.C. this weekend! Except i think Paul Feeney said he was going there and I don't want Ray Z mad at me so I decided to stay away from Paul. What the hell am I talking about. Hey win one for the gipper! Good luck! Break a leg (means good luck for you mid westerners).
Give us your take on the overall tournament to date. Lot's of entries? How are the satellites? I have heard complaints because of the number of chips one starts with? What do you think?
Vince.
Vince-
Hope you ain't bein' sarcastic about lovin' my reports you feisty rascal. You are my inspiration. I'll post the conclusion to this inauspicious rod trip tomorrow as I drink my morning coffee. A few thoughts:
1. The $110 + $10 buy-in satellites are decent play, particulalry for no-limit. You start with T400 in chips and while the rounds are only 15 minutes, you start at 5/15 blinds, and they progress to (I think) 25/50, 50/100, 75/150, 200/400. The hands are played very fast as the dealers are pretty compotnet for the most part so there is plenty of time to let a few yoyos knock each other out, wait for a decent chance to double through, and make it down to three, or four-handed. At that point, the blinds are usually only up to 75/150 compared to stacks of 1500+, so you will actually take a few flops. Pretty decent value for only $10 in juice.
2. The $55 buy in satellites are a gyp. You pay the same $10 entry fee for only half the prize pool and only get $200 in chips. To be avoided at all costs, but they were generally running what the players wanted, which was the $1000 table.
3. The $220 buy-in super satellite is pretty good, but expensive since you can (and should) take one f your two rebuys immediately. Only played one of these and there seemed to be some dead money in the pool. (Not including mine of course, since I play good.)
4. The one main tournament I played was a bit in shambles. We started my table with 3 players and 6 stacks. They just blinded off the stacks and let us take turns stealing before filling the table. In some cases, they replaced the partially eroded stacks with new players (and stacks). I wondered what the hell happened to those chips ahd whether the Taje noticed (or cared) that we were playing a completely different game from those at a full table.
5. The side action as very juicy. I played at two $15/$30 hold'em games that were as bad (meaning good) as any I had seen at ANY limit, including 4/8. Guys I know who aren't even great players were tearing up the games as high as $50/$100. I watched some high limit O8 (300/600) in disbelief and ame convinced that a decent player could slip in undetected and beat the game for a few grand by simply playing Ray Zee's recommended low limit nut strategy. Didn't seem like a great use of my precious time and I didn't bring a sufficient cash bankroll, so I took a pass.
6. The number of entries seemed low in light of the poor reported turnout at Foxwoods. I think the $500 NLH event had less than 150 people. Maybe the side action is too profitable to pass up, because the room was jammed.
7. The Taj cocktail waitresse not too easy on the eyes, but they are pretty attentive and will keep the beers rolling for a buck toke if you're just looking to gamble.
By all means go. And stop by the Dimaond Club on Tuesday nigt for some pot limit hold'em.
Michael,
No sarcasm here. Keep the reports coming. Please. Believe me if I didn't enjoy them I wouldn't bother opening one. I think all of us that would like to play in more tournaments can benefit from reports like yours. No sarcasm is not my styel. did I say that again. What a bunch of crap. I hate it when I do that.
Waiting for a "I won the big one" report. No not from Lady Gambler (sex remark) from Michael 7, Rounder, Badger (son of a gun's done that been there - jealous? me?), or any other 2+2 participant. Get'em guys/goils!
Vince.
Final table at Seniors VI - $100 buy PL HE in 6 left and I am with about T$18K - shortly after winning a hand with JJ and drawing a straight to a set of 5's.
I have a good table image (for what it is worth) these guys don't know me from a bar of soap and all they have seen is solid play as I am playing my A+ game here.
The eventual winner "Ray" chip leader is a really tough player never calls and always makes you "pay" to play him I like his style but he has given me a head ache with his relentless play. He moved to the final table with me and was at my previous table for over 3 long long hours sitting directly on my left UGH - I hope your getting my drift about this guy - I'm in the BB and Ray comes on for a pot sized bet. Fold to me I have JT suited and call. You can't put this guy on a hand but he was doing this sort of steal move all day some times with junk and some times with a med to small pair some times with a "real hand" - he almost always bet the pot when he bet so you couldn't tell where he was coming from - like I said this guy was tough - I think I beat him every time we went heads up at the previous table and he knew I was playing quality cards cuz I couldn't afford to get sloppy with him on my left.
Flop came J rag rag - I just bet $1000 I have top pair hoping for a pot sized bet cuz I know how he loves to come in with a big bet with any pair and I have 2 paints I like my chances - He doesn't disapoint me he comes back with a pot sized bet I come over the top with all my chips - the trap is set or is it? - He shows AJ my heart is broken and he pickes up all my heard earned chips. I shook Rays hand and wished him luck and walked away.
I really thought if I won this pot and I can win the whole thing I'm playing well and had a good feeeling for my chances but I needed a big win some where and I thought it was here and now it was a gamble of sorts as this guy Ray is so unpredictable and tough - BTW in the evening session of the same type of tourney Ray and I met up at the final table once again BUT this time I was chip leader and he was down a few thousand and on MY right. He got knocked out I shook his hand and told him I liked his style - I am sure I'll see him again.
Question is - was this a bad play? Would you have done it differently if you where there? - Maybe I should have just folded the G-- Damn JT and waited for a real hand (that's hind sight and not my way of looking at it) and let this guy steal my blind or was this the place to make a stand I knew I had to make at some point if I was gonna win this thing outright????
Comments welcome:
I hate the heads-up play with JT here against the raiser. It is more likely that he has Ace-rag, Ace-face, or face-face than any small pair. By calling you are committing your whole stack if you hit top pair since you can't afford a free card. As such, I think you are going to either win only the original pot or lose it all when you should be committing your chips on double-through opportunities.
That being said, I probably would have made a full bet on the flop with your top pair and lost my stack the same way you did.
The trap WAS set... when you called out of position with a hand that is likely to be dominated by AJ, AT, KJ, QQ, JJ, TT, etc.
Leave JTs to the limit players unless YOU are the one taking the initiative, and you are the one in position.
I think you already know that.
p.s. I did manage to win a pivotal pot with JTs in the BB, but the circumstances were very different as described in one of the posts below.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I wasn't there and they weren't my chips but I would not have called with JTs in that situation.
You were 2 hands from having the button.
Mo,
Ray was on the button and in stealing position I am not about to let him run over me here. I liked my J's alot here after the flop and would probably make the same move in the same situation again. He was playing stong and buying alot of pots all day.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Steve,
I may have fallen apart but Ray was in buying position on the button and I just couldn't give up my big blind here - I liked the top pair flop and went in with it. He could have had any number of hands my J's could beat where he would have payed the same way before the flop - med to small pair, AK AQ - when he called me I knew I was beat but I had to take a chance - I gambled and lost.
Badger,
how about giving a little more on estimating players and the wall stuff please as it is useful.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
responsibility comes with authority. your position in life has been determined. dont fight it.
If this guy has been playing "overly" aggressively, but is capable of laying a hand down, why not just put in a pot-sized reraise preflop?
Even if he does call, when you bet the pot on the flop, he is going to have to have flopped a lot to call. While that strategy might have had the same result on the present hand (if he doesn't fold preflop, which he should), it would allow you to beat some other hands like AK, AQ, etc., when they miss the flop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
$100 buy in NL HE multi rebuys (I make none) and paying last 9. 11 left (Big John says 13 here but I think he is wrong) Our table has 6 left - I have about T$1500 left.
Blinds are $300-$600 $50 antis I need to make a hand soon as the blinds are coming to fast and I can only go one circuit. I get KJ and call the BB who I think is pretty loose had about T$4000 and not to strong he calls flop is A rag rag perfect for me (as he would have surely raised pre flop with any A) to represent AX he checkes I put all my chips in and the BB shows Q2 I have him beat with my KJ until the turn, Q falls and I bow out. He says if I had another $1000 he coudn't have called - I just shrug. I give Big John his blood money for the Last longer bet and slink off the the bar.
In retrospect maybe an all in bet pre flop would have been better but I thought the BB made a real bad call with his Q2 since the A hit the board.
Comments:
If he was smart, he was probably thinking that you had no Ace either since you didn't raise before the flop.
even though I am usually very agressive in this type of situation, I may have been content to take the free card and hoped to show my 2nd nut-no pair down for free. With the Ace on board, your hand is kinda like having a bare Ace, you can win a showdown, but stand to gain more than you lose from a free card.
As to your pre-flop play, even if this guy in the BB is loose, I move all-in with KJ since I probably have a stronger hand than he does, even if he calls. And you ensure that you get to see all five cards wheras by limping you are going to be in a quandry if he bets out on any old ragged flop.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Steve,
I learned lowball by playing NL, without the joker, in Northern and Central California in the sixties. I play Mexican Stud NL, because it is the only NL regularly spread that is convenient to me. I like NL Hold-em. It appears that the recurring theme here would be NL.
I admit that I was very interested in getting Rounder involved in a little NL action during his visit. He cleverly avoided my trap by managing to stay late in every tournament he entered. I attribute much of his weekend tournament success to the overwhelming fear he must have felt at the prospect of having to face me in a live game. By the way, it isn't called "Rope a Rounder", it's called "Rope-a-Dope"....Oh, I see, a natural mistake for you to make...........;-)
1. blinds were 200-400 with 50 antes. We were 6 handed.
2. You raised to T800 2nd UTG with an unsuited trap hand KcJs.
3. BB called your raise. There is T2,000 in the pot pre-flop.
4. You deliberately interlaced your T25 blues with your T100 blacks attempting to make your all in bet look more formidable than it was. This is a weakness "tell".
5. Unlike you, your erstwhile opponent was suited, Q2c, and had flopped that vaunted back door flush draw that you so often disregard. Since the pot was offering him 2750:750 or 3.67 to 1 on his call, and since he correctly surmised that the flop had missed you too, he threw those paltry few chips in on a capricious whim.
6. After you busted out, we were 5 handed, the other remaining table had 7 players and lost one shortly thereafter. So you were out in 13th position. Ten minutes later, I busted out in 11th place, both tables were five handed and they announced they would be playing hand for hand until someone was eliminated.
John Besides that did I miss anything.
You forgot to tell the forum how much better looking I am in real life than you had ever imagined.
M
I'd have moved it all-in preflop. On the other side, quite often the BB will call a preflop raise where they wouldn't call an all-in bet after the flop. Here it really helps to know your customer.
Does anyone know if there is TV or internet coverage of any of the tournaments going on now. U.S.Championship or World Poker finals? or will any be shown in the future./thanks/vano
Some told me ESPN2 was covering it, but it will not be broadcast till some time later. not confirmed
Limit HE tournament - Blinds are $200/$400 betting is $400/$800. I have T$2800 ha has about T$2000
I am BB with 86o - all pass to sb who is a fair to solid player (I see him at a lot of final tables) who hates to give up a small blind and will play position aggressivily, he just calls.
Flop is KQ6 - he bets $400 I call, turn 5 he bets I call, river is a 2 he bets (all in now)I call. All through this he looks like he has nothing I put him on a 9T or something like this.
Show down he has 76 I out kick him with my BIG 8 - OK now your gonna accuse me of being loose and dumb but I read this guy right and got paid off for it - His mistake was not raising pre flop if he wanted to save his small blind so badly.
OK I'm ready for the abuse.
your loose not dumb. this was a good play and a good read. also consider raising in these types of situations on 4th street so that he may fold and not hit an overcard or end up even betting the best hand on the end as a bluff. if there is a decent chance he will fold on four id raise him out unless i had a good enough hand to give him a free card.
Ray, under most circumstances you couldn't get me to play a 8-6 with a ski mask and a 357. It was here and now I took a stand against a guy I put on a bluff. I feel my play is anything but loose but I am proned to make plays like this in particular circumstances they usually work out as I am probably a better people player than card player.
Hey, if Erik Seidel can call 1/2 million with a bare Ace, you can certainly call with a pair of 6s for considerably less :-)
Not interested in abusing you, just pointing out the inconsistencies in your posts.
In previous posts, people have made plays where they call with a weak hand preflop because (they believe) the situation merits it. And in some of these cases, you've slammed them for paying extra money to see the flop with a junk hand. Here, you do the same thing, but it's OK because you are there, in the situation, and therefore can understand it's value. Maybe these other posters also made correct plays, but you weren't there, and you failed to see the value?
In any event, I will abuse you in the future if you make any of the comments about playing cheesy hands. Clearly you consider it correct to do so if the situation merits it. So, just don't be so absolute in your commentary, OK?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I was in an unraised big blind - does that get me off the hook. And I know my opponent.
It's just my guess, but if someone else had posted about calling a guy down with 86 after a flop of KQ6, because their read told them he had nothing, I can easily imagine you posting to them about how they shouldn't be going broke with bottom pair, how their hand sucks. You have made comments about never playing weak hands, and many of those comments have been VERY absolute in their wording. It is clear that there are exceptions in your play (as there should be).
If I'm wrong about what you would post, well, then that's a different story.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, I have to disagree with you on this one - I would have said this about a ring game and dumped the rags if it were a ring game - but tournament play is a very different story. You are right I risked a lot on a small hand and I wouldn't have if I didn't know this guy so well.
Thanks for the input though and I'll try to tone down the critical comments on fellow rag players. :-)
Rounder,
You know "The FossilMan" busted you righteously on this one. 'Fess up now, you often call with cheese! It is easy, sitting at home in front of the computer screen, to read someone else's account of a hand that got them knocked out, then write off a quick post blasting them for their playing of trash. The truth is that you can only see a poor reconstruction of all the pertinent information that player had in front of him at the time he made either one or a series of decisions. There is no substitute for actually being there. I got a much better feel for how you really play from sitting next to you and playing for an hour than I ever did from all your two dimensional postings. Thank God that, for your wallet's sake, you play far more correctly than you post. Good luck in Reno; sorry I can't be up there too.
A day or so ago Badger was talking about the wall some players run into at some point on a tournament.
I know something about "WALLS" as I was a long distance runner and wrestler in school.
Here is my assessment of a situation I may not handle well in tournaments. I just miss the payouts so very often - I have a very high % of just miss by 1 or 2. Now I win and make final talbes very often too - but it's the state of mind I get into when I'm in the last 11 one more out and I'm at the final table area.
I get this mind set I'm gonna make it and I want as many chips there so I can have a better chance of winning it. When I screw up it is usually in the blind and with a marginal hand that I would muck in normal conditions.
Here is an example - Last night I was in a $50 buy in $50 rebuy tourney - 79 players and 149 rebuys so with add on $$ there is over $13K we are playing for.
There are 5 at my table and 6 at the other 10 get paid. I have T6K blinds are $800/$1500 (no typo they do the $1500 BB) I'm in BB with Q8c button makes it $3K I call additional $1500 - flop is Kc 5c 2h - I bet the $1500 hoping the flop didn't hit this guy and he raised me I call all in - and lost to a KT - he was on a steal and hit a flop.
I know I played this hand all wrong and don't need anyone to tell me I did that is not why I posted it.
In situations like this the circumstances effected my thinking and make it fuzzy - I have to work on it - I know if I play my A+ game as I was through out this tourney I score - I think I am focusing on the final table already and want as many chips as possible maybe it is why I do well over all in tournaments but I still think I play bad in this situation - prior to and at the final table I am just fine and play my best it is just here in the gray area of 11th that I get flakey or am I just imagining it.
Comments:
A couple of points I'd like to make, please do take me up anyone who disagrees. There seems to be a common theme with one of your recent posts where you call in the big blind suspecting that someone is on a steal. I don't like this play and I would much rather raise or fold. By raising, you take the initiative. OK, he probably wouldn't have dropped top pair, but suppose the flop had come I don't know AT5 or something - then you bet hoping he's missed but with your re-raise pre-flop he's going to be really scared of an Ace and could easily fold the best hand. Or he could fold right away pre-flop - for a small bet you get one maybe two extra ways to win (is this limit ? In Big-bet, go all-in or fold, and I'd probably fold Q8).
The other is, how much does 10th pay ? A token amount ? Is it really enough to be factored strongly into your strategy ? It's only over a short term but my results have improved since I concentrated on ignoring the consolation prizes and focusing on the top 4. The wall is definitely there for many players, but use it to your advantage and it becomes your best friend.
Rounder, maybe there isn't a problem at all and it's just the doubt creeping in that is putting you off your A+ game in this spot. You have nothing to fear but fear itself ! I'm sure I don't have to tell you not to call just because you suspect someone is on a steal, particulary for 25% of your stack. Raise or fold !
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
It looks like you already know what your problem is: You make what's going on in the current BB hand fuzzy by superimposing images of what you want to happen at the final table on it. It's entirely a mental state problem not a decision making problem. In addition, you may also be fuzzying your current hand with images and negative feelings of all those times in the past when you finished just out of the money. Or worse, you may be fuzzying your current hand with images, sounds, and feelings of both what you want to happen at the final table and what has happened in the past. My point is that "fuzzy" may not be a metaphorical or symbolic word. It may in fact be a literal description of what you are actually experiencing inside your head. And you alone created that experience. My advice is very simple: The next time you find yourself in this familiar situation, simply shrink your internal images of the past and future and place them underneath the poker table or better yet outside the cardroom! This simple and weird instruction is literal. Try it.
n
I get knocked out of tournaments many times when I could simply sit tight and coast into the money. A number of tournament players I respect tell me that this is inexcusable. They say to always make sure that you get to the money when you can do so without risk. I admit that this is correct, if you are playing primarily for the prizemoney. It is an unfortunate quirk in my nature that I prefer to play for the win. I have temporized this somewhat, getting to the point that I now set my aim for one of the top three spots rather than shooting only for the win.
I consider that period of play when people are closing in on locking up a money finish as the perfect time to make moves and gather in chips. I tend to steal more than my share of blinds and antes during this time and am far more apt to put other players to a decision as to whether they want to risk an all in confrontation. This will often result in my being eliminated with weak hands when a move I initiated turns out not to have been successful. I am always a little amused by the looks some of these plays get when they fail to work. When they do work, and I get to the money with 20 to 35% of the chips in play, I am able to realize my goal more often than many others do.
You need to harvest some chips at some point late in any tourney in order to make a top three finish; I prefer to do my harvesting when most others are trying to lay low. If you see me playing in a tourney when it is later rounds and you have a real short stack, feel free to sit back and wait for me to bust out when making one of my blind steals. My chips are either going to put me in a very strong and commanding position or else they are all going to go to someone else who wasn't afraid to risk an out of the money finish for a chance to be a big stack at the final table.
John says-- "I get knocked out of tournaments many times when I could simply sit tight and coast into the money. A number of tournament players I respect tell me that this is inexcusable. They say to always make sure that you get to the money when you can do so without risk. I admit that this is correct, if you are playing primarily for the prizemoney. It is an unfortunate quirk in my nature that I prefer to play for the win. I have temporized this somewhat, getting to the point that I now set my aim for one of the top three spots rather than shooting only for the win."
what is important to note about the above is that coasting into the money may be the best way to get some prize money. but it is not the best way to maximum your prize money as John understands. if you are not playing to maximize your chances you might be playing a losing game.
Having read similar posts from John in the past I have tried to put this into practice and it really works. I recommend any beginning / intermediate players to think very hard about this. Work it out for yourself, and remember, 80% of people at the table will disagree, but balance it up and make your own choice.
Andy.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I agree Steve you hit it on the head. Thanks
so! ya thought you might like to go to the show!...
but i got some bad news for you, sunshine...
now we'll find out where you really stand! ...
you better run like hell...
there must be a door here in the wall, where i came in ...
i sentence you to be exposed before your peers!! ...
tear down the wall!! tear down the wall!! tear down the wall!! tear down the wall!!...
all alone, or in twos, the ones who really love you walk up and down outside the wall.
it doesn't really fit, but my favorite is "there is no dark side of the moon really. matter of fact, it is all dark."
scott
little home tournement. Explecting about 10 players. 10 dollar buy in. No Limit Holdem.
3rd place 10 dollars 2nd place 20 dollars 1st place rest of the money.
10 dollars gets you 500 in chips. You can rebuy 500 for 10 more dollars for the first hour if and only if you bust out. This seems goofy to me. Blinds stay constant (or only increase once) during rebuy period. After that they increase at a healthy rate but still not too fast.
Questions:
1) Is there any time I wouldn't rebuy if I'm able?
2) Say I've got a small stack right before rebuy period ends. Are there situations where I'm better off gambling it up so that I can either drag down a big pot or be able to rebuy? If I've got a really small stack might I even want to lose?
1) Is there any time I wouldn't rebuy if I'm able?
no its a fun thing. so rebuy.
2) Say I've got a small stack right before rebuy period ends. Are there situations where I'm better off gambling it up so that I can either drag down a big pot or be able to rebuy? If I've got a really small stack might I even want to lose?
sure near the rebuy period id stick it in and try to get chips.
What's this I get to the table and I see 3 known tournament players. Hopefully this table will break up soon.
A few hands into the tournament UTG limps(appears to be a weak player), then one of the tournament players limps in.(this guy just raised the last 3 out 4 and showed one hand down which did take the money, won all 3 he raised, we have not completed a round yet). Next two pass. I call next with AJo. All rest fold. The flop comes 3 5 A offsuit. Big and UTG check. Tournament player bets. I raise the other two fold and I get reraised.
What should I do?
P.S. the table got broken up after one round. I did not make it. 3 players from my original table made the last two tables. They took 2nd, 3rd and maybe tenth.
If this is early in the tournament and you have been playing tight or reasonably solid, I would muck this without hesitation. Unless you are a mainiac, your raise on this board against an intimidating, early position player is screaming "I have at least AK!". Therefore, his reraise is either 1) an ill-advised move; 2) also AK; 3) Top Two pair, or 4) a set of 3s or 5s.
Unless you have given this guy any reason to make him think you are capable of laying down AK here, I think you are beat since great players don't try to push good players off of top-pair/top kicker hands. And NEVER show this guy or anyone at the table that you are laying down an Ace.
Reraise - Reraise - Reraise Oh did I for get to say
RERAISE
Now don't ever let ANYONE at a table dominate you.
He would have probably raised with a big A AQ OR AK so He is probably on a Med pair like 88 or the like. Your screwed if he is on 55 or 33 and He is probably on AT KJ QJ TJ or something like that. Columbus took a chance so should you. I think a reraise would slow him down or he might just fold.
Depends on how tough he is.
OH YEAH Come over the top of this guy you probably have the best hand.
I guess you correctly inferred that this was limit play. I responded above assuming the guy was facing a big no-limit reraise. In the limit case, I call the guy down, but don't see any equity in reraising him here as I will only lose more if I'm drawing near dead and get him to abort his ill-fated bluff if he's drawing slim.
I'm not really araid of free or cheap card here, but I probably bet if he checks the turn or check behind him and call on the river if a straightening baby card falls. It may seem passive, but the "Bulldog Calling" strategy is sometimes most effective when heads-up against a tricky player who doesn't give you respect.
Mike,
When playing tough tournament hardened players you have to hit them back and hard or they will just run your ass down at every chance. I would, if playing with a weak player I can get off a quality hand with a med pair. This guy is on a roll raising and winning he thinks he is in heaven I just want to give him a dose of reality. I wouldn't just raise I make it a strong RAISE.
I assume you are yelling raise because you think you most likely have him beat. What if you thought he most likely beats you. I thought he had AQ, AJ, or AT and AT probably suited.
I think he has less than AQ or a med. pair or a set - AT suited or not at this stage it being suited means nothing. If he has the suit well you lose but you go down swinging.
If your gonna play tournament poker you have to size up the tough players fast and don't back down. You have a good hand here I am guessing you have the best hand.
In tournament poker I almost always come in for a raise you have to - because I am usually not playing hands that won't stand a rise so I do it first.
If you think he beats you then fold by all means but the pre flop call means he may be on a weaker hand and was just speculating he sensed weakness and raised it is done all the time.
Let me lay this one on you - lastnight in a limit hold'em tourney I was on the button came in for a raise with a KQ suited flop was TTrag and bet and called to me I raised cuz I sensed weakness tells all over the place - they folded like a cheap suit. I won with nothing and I know there was at least a med pair of 8's out there and for sure a AX they put me on AT and I let them.
It is not like a ring game at all it is war and only the strong survive - play TIGHT really tight but when you "have it" play it to the hilt - you will lose once and a while but when you act they will respect your action. It gives you blind buying and bluffing ability when the blinds go through the roof.
I wish you success.
This was limit.
reread hfap. after an under the gun player comes in and then another player calls in early position ajo is duck soup. it may be one of the worst hands to have in that spot. you also had a number of players behind you yet to act. but since you got there to the flop it probably only pays to call him down and not force the hand.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I don't like incomplete hands but since this is a tournament hand I'll tell you what I think. You have found yourself in a dangerous situation. Early in a tournament it is not a good idea to get into a raising war with less than the nuts especially against a "tournament player". So rerasing is not, IMO, a correct play. You can see the dificulty with a hand like AJo in situations like this. Z makes some very good points. Badger is a world Champion but I don't think he's right here. I don't think you have the best hand. There may be an outside chance the reraiser has AT but I give him A,3;A,5, a small set or 3,5 yes 3,5. I don't see him reraising with anything less. He has to put you on an at least A with this board and consequently expects you to call so his reraise is not a bluff. I would be very tempted to muck it here because of the uncertainty. In fact I believe the best play is to muck on the reraise.
Vince.
Like I said previously I thought he had AQ, AJ or AT. I was almost sure he had an Ace and not a set or two pair. I also thought that there was some chance that he might be trying to test me with something like a pair of 8's. Because of this I called. The turn paired the board with a suited 3. He bet I called. The river brought some junk which made a backdoor flush possible. He acted like he did not like it and checked. I bet. He called. I turned my hand first then he turned AQ.
P.S. just because I saw his name winning a tournament or two did not mean anything to me. I never played against the guy before. He was on my right. It played no role in this particular hand. The two on my left I was seriously concerned about. They were not in the hand.
Did you reraise, it might have gotten hom off his hand.
You never know maybe I should have reraised. At that moment I thought my options were fold, call. Looking back then after the hand and looking back now it is my opinion that I would not have been able to push him off his hand.
No aggressive tournament player is going to laydown AQ here, IMO, unless he has you pegged as an absolute rock.
Call me a wimp, but I might have checked the river here although this was a decent value bet opportunity. I like Rounder's comments (and style) about hitting these guys back hard so that they don't take shots at you in the future. But I think your image SUFFERS, rather than benefits from pushing a piece of cheese like AJ too strongly, especially in a pot with a couple of early position limpers.
Got past the wall tonight - had a 6 way chop for $1300 each phew - I just played consistant poker - it worked.
Hope to keep it up.
Way to go. Where?
Well done. Please excuse my curiosity, but I am interested in your chop. I can't see how a 6-way equal chop could be anything but negative EV for at least two players. What proportion of the chips did you have ? Would you have agreed the chop with, say, 25% of the chips as second chip leader ?
Andy.
Andy one guy has 40% of the chips and I was down to one chip - the blinds were $3000/$1500 - the button had just passed me I had $5k before and $500 after geting a 92 and 53 - I decided to hang on the the chip for a circuit then we had 3 go out in 3 hands the deal was struck and I breathed a sigh of relief. The chop was a typo it was late and I was tired it was $1183.
I think I played a total of 8 hands all night (4 hours) and won them all - I love NL HE poker. I won 2 hands with A rag the rest were real HE hands.
I wouldn't normally be interested in a 6-way chop but in that spot I'd probably take it :-). What the guy with 40% of the chips was thinking of, G*d only knows.
Andy.
Well I tried to post this message last night so forgive me if it comes up twice.
Here is a hand from the $1000 dollar buy in No Limit Tourney at the Taj:
I have about $6000 (average is about 4000) in chips, blinds are 100-200. We are down to 3 tables and only the final table gets the money. Johnny Chan makes it 600 to go from middle position. He has been raising alot before the flop. All fold to me the Big blind. I see KJs and call.
The flop comes Q72, one of my suit(hearts). I check and Chan checks behind me. The turn is the 5 of hearts giving me a big flush draw. I bet 800, Chan calls.
The river is a blank. Should I make one more play for the pot?
Danny S
P.S. Sorry, Vince this is not going to end with a how I won the big one. I ended up in 12th place, 9 players got paid.
I would put J.C. on a pair here, maybe jacks or tens. He could even have more and be trapping.
Considering your check after the flop, then your bet on the suited card after the turn, my guess is he would call you (or maybe raise) on the river, suspecting that you had been on a flush draw after the turn but missed on the river.
I think you should lick your wounds here and not invest any more in this pot.
refer to subject. you're out of tricky stuff to do
You are playing this like a Limit hand. You should've folded on the flop at the latest. Your bet on the turn was too small and told him exactly what you had. If you make any sort of move on the river, you're just asking him to move in on you.
Folding on the flop was not really an option since he didn't bet.
Danny S
do you make those small bets all the time. yes, then maybe you can bluff on the river. your small bet looks like a draw or small pair with the hope it will make him fold. that what he thinks here. he will call with anything knowing he can take it away from you on the end then thank you under his breath for the gift. the right play if you are going to play this hand,is to check raise all you can on 4th street. he wont call even with ace queen and if he does you can still suck out. if you cant make those kind of plays in the right spots you are doomed to low in the money finishes.
I cheated here. I looked at Zee's post. Impressive. I agree with him now that I've read it but neve thought about it till he wrote it. That Zee is good.
Anyway, nice job, Dan, in the HL 7CS last week. How did you like the guy with all the gold around his neck. What a putz. The Phila area was well represented in that tournament. What is it....Poker or Bridge?
Thanks for the kudo on the hi/lo.
Ray has me pretty well read. I missed the money by 3 places in NL $1000 and 2 places in limit $500.
I am not sure who the guy with all of the gold was? Was he at my table? Were you?
As for poker/bridge, I'd like to compete in both, but right now I am better at bridge. I came in third in a national event at the last nationals. If you see me at the Taj say hello, as I don't know who you are.
Danny
Dan,
since you are getting close alot you must be doing most things right. now you need to think about winning the tournaments. the way to do that is find ways to win pots without getting called from people that dont want to go broke. you cant do it often enough with the best hands.
Thanks for the advice, Ray. I have only played 5 tournaments at this level, and a couple of smaller ones. My strategy has always been a very tight one. I can see how this will get me through many rounds without getting to the big money.
When to make the "move" to start winning pots that aren't really mine is what I need to work on.
Danny S
I was watching the H-L since I had a friend playing who went out early; some tough customers. I'll ID myself next time I'm at the Taj. Used to play bridge with Jesse Goldman during work in Phila (Walnut St.). I am better in poker than bridge.
I can't see how you can call a raise with KJ suited or not. It is a rubbish hand in NL and should have been mucked at the out set - in NL HE Ace is king. For get your opening limit hands in a tournament like this. Your thinking limit here - you should have eigther made the bet on the flop and maybe won it right there or fold if he raises you - read TJ Cloutiers Championship NL PL HE - it will open your eyes.
I hope he doesn't read the post about you being busted out of the Crystal Park NL Hold-em tournament when you raised, 2nd UTG, with KJo and moved all in with it with a flop of Axx rainbow. If he did, he might question this post from you and wonder why he was wrong and you were right. Is this a case of "Do as I say, not as I do"? My father used feed me that line and I hated it. Remember FossilMan's post?
Did I do that???
I must have a dual personality. I was probably bluffing or making a run at the pot representing AA now the only thing wrong with my move was I didn't have eneough chips.
You know Big John I met Johnny Chan in LA - I thought he would be taller.
It is easy to underestimate a player's height when he is sitting behind a lot of cash and chips. I saw him playing in the 100-200 at Crystal Park and he looked plenty tall enough to me. Steve Flicker is about 6'3", he was in the game with Johnny Chan and they both looked about the same height to me. Of course, since he was sitting up straight in order to see over his stack, he probably looked taller than he really is.
Rounder,
If I understand what you wrote, you are asking me to believe what you say rather than what I saw? Or, are you perhaps saying that you have this marvelous reserve game that you sometimes call upon, and, within which, you never stray from the advice that you impart here?
I too have a mythical level of play. When I am playing at this mythical level, I can read the backs of cards and thus know all my opponent's secrets. I am very hard to beat when I play this way, so I try not to use this power too often. With me, it is simply a fairness issue; I hate to take unfair advantage.
When I've seen a man eat meat, I will always doubt him when he tells the world he is vegetarian. Face it Mike, you are just as "Live" as the rest of us.
I am giving comments based on my A+ game when everything is in my favor I will not be calling a raise KJ.
Big John I hope you can see the difference!!!
Where I can read tournament results on the internet?
Thanks
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Wanted to report on a tourney I took in yesterday. Went from being about middle stack at last table to having only 2 chips left after having posted blinds. Finally I got a hand AA, went all in ha,ha, and got three callers who were after the pot and me as only 6 got paid and I looked like the 7th man. Won to 800, looked at A,Q suited, all in again 3 other callers and I was in business. Two hands later had KK when the chip leader took his third run at me. Wound up splitting a $2700 pot 4 ways. Followed your advice, Rounder, as good as I could. Only noticed myself making one major mistake but learned that at least in this tourney if you are real low on chips one of the big guys will run at you with very little; just wait till you have a decent hand and get doubled up. So far against weak players I have won 2 tourneys, lost before the money once and split once against a more experienced field. This probably resulted from following rounder's advice as only once did I get good cards. Regards, and thanks to everyone for your posts; I read them all.
PS. The loose games section in HEfAP is right on for my area. Wish I had read it before I started playing a couple of months ago.
Congrats Dave,
I chopped one last Wed. with only one chip I played a total of 8 hands. Today I was 3rd and played only 9 hands. Not counting unraised blinds. In HL HE it is important to pick and choose your spots and pounce when you get the hands. Just got eaked out for 2nd but that's the breaks.
Thanks for the numbers of hands played info; that really helps. I am sure that I may be still playing too many hands especially at the beginning. Do you vary your play much from cash games? I don't think I do much except for going all in. BTW how many tourneys do you play in a week? In my area it is possible to play three by doing some travelling. Regards, Dave
I play anywhere from 4 to 6 tournaments a week. The last couple of months I have been traveling to bigger tournaments like the Seniors, Pot Of Gold and Sam Boyds.
I play much much less hands in NL than I do in Limit for example in NL on the button I wouldn't consider playing 98 in an unraised pot unless I was stealing blinds.
In NL I never enter a pot with a hand I can't see a raise with so I amlost always enter pots with a raise of some sort.
Of course NL PL HE is so situational I may lay down QQ to one player and call a small raise in the BB with 86 and see the small pair the the river if the player is a bluffing stealing SOB.
Like I said it is situational.
I was at the final three tables of a small no-limit HE Trnmt at the Bike - first prize $2k.
Blinds were 100 and 200 w/ a 50 ante every round.
I'm in big blind with about 3000.
Everyone folds to button, who has about 10,000. He raises 800.
SB folds.
I peak at my cards - AKd. I call.
Flop comes Q74 rainbow w/ 1 diamond. I check, he bets 800, I fold. The raiser seemed solid, but would raise UTG w/ 88 and K10o.
Looking back, it was a pivotal hand. The blinds and antes were going up and I needed to make a few chips. I believe his flop bet was weak. Thinking about the hand later, I concluded I should have done 1 of 2 things. Either:
1. Go all in after his initial raise.
2. Go all in after his bet on the flop.
I figure if I was going to go down, it should have been with the AKs, instead of the Q9h that was my last hand. Plus, he was likely on the steal and probably would not have called either of the two scenarios mentioned above.
Bottom line, I was chicken. Or was it right to play it safe?
Comments greatly appreciated.
I would push it all in preflop and let him decide whether he was pot committed or not. AKs is certainly worth moving in on against the button's probable steal attempt. If you had committed preflop, you are done with the second guessing later. By the flop, you already know it missed you and a call, or all in raise, probably isn't correct. When you have a hand you believe to be superior to the raiser's preflop, that is the perfect time to try to get him to reevaluate his. If he calls, you've bought your through ticket to the river; if he folds, you now have over T4000 and he is probably going to back off your big blinds unless he has enough to stand the heat that you've just shown you can put on him. I would put it all in in this case preflop 100% of the time against one opponent raising on the button. What better head's up hand would you be hoping for?
Tom McEvoy, Badger, and I would all move in before the flop. Does that tell you anything?
"Does that tell you anything."
Yeah it does, since I've never seen you place in a no-limit hold'em tourney. And I can't remember the last time I saw McEvoy place in a no-limit event. So I guess what you're trying to tell us is that going all in before the flop is probably a questionable move, and that he should seek advice from somebody else. Am I Right, or am I right?
First, Tom McEvoy placed in the Senior's VI championship NL Hold-em event that concluded last week. Second, unless I am mistaken, David has a couple money finishes in the WSOP in NL Hold-em events. Third, I think David was saying that the going all in with AK against a button steal is so obviously correct that *even* Steve Badger would realize it. I've gotta get back in that shower before Rounder and Badger use up all our hot water.
I was recently in a NL tournament where a guy called a preflop raise of about 3 times the BB. Flop came A, rag, rag and the original bettor led out. Guy shows me his pocket KK"s and mucks his hand. He was proud of his laydown. The laydown was probably correct, but the preflop call was simply bad NL poker play. If you always put your whole stack in against a preflop raise when you have KK, you are going to come out much better than you would by calling. You might get busted when you are called and an A comes on the flop, but the chips you win when everyone folds to your bet, or when you get called by an inferior hand and the KK hold up, will more than compensate for these times. When you are fortunate enough to get category I hands in NL tourneys, you better play them strongly when there is already a raise to you preflop. To not do so is to invite defeat.
Calm yourself John, I was just being a smart ass.
My apologies, T.K.
I'm calm. I too was being a smart ass. I used my answer to your post to cleverly get back at Badger for his post alleging that Rounder and I shower together.
Two mistakes here - move in pre flop or make a big raise. I hit him back here with an all in bet and make him call - he is probably on a steal.
When you didn't hit your AK on the flop it's check and fold.
When playing AK in NL PL HE tournaments you must be able to muck it if you don't flop to it. You have to play it very softly. If you are on AK and 3 babys like 9 5 4 come out and there is any action you have to get away from the hand.
I'm assuming you made an opening raise here and were just called. If someone else raises into me or limps when I have AK, they are going to get an opportunity to play for all my chips or all of theirs. If you aren't a little overaggressive with AK, you give no camouflage to your AA, KK and QQ all-in raises that you'd make in the same circumstances. Being a little too strong with AK gets you more play when you have a monster. People who only call with AK in NL or pot-limit, preflop, are not going to usually be factors at the finish.
...this situation is begging you to "go over the top" all in before the flop... that's because there is at least an 80% possibility that he is on a steal... and if he's not, you still have a very strong hand...
World Poker Finals
Foxwoods.
Friday 10 Dec. Limit Holdem $220 Buy in. 1 Rebuy.
196 entrants
Vince Lepore #7 - $2034.
Yes, I made a huge mistake at the wrong time and could not recover. Patience was not my friend when I got to the final table. K,Qo - Middle Position. Raised, reraised by solid player. Called! Flop K,x,x. Played hand to river. Opponent Pocket Aces. Big Surprise. Yeah right. You must understand that I am an impatient person. It took every bit of strength I had just to keep from tilting at various point throughout the tourney. Chalk it up to experience.
Thanks to Fossilman and Paul Feeney for cheering me on! Next tourney for me - Carnivale of Poker.
Vince.
ya, you got to watch it near the end when players clam up. they dont very often reraise you with anything less than a hand they really like. this is one of the times you can get away from a flop so good with only losing one bet or ditch the hand for the raise. does fossil man really sit around with a bunch of rotten wood in his lap. and does PF talk in letters only in real person.
Can anyone tell me the hold'em tournament schedule for Harras Chicago.
Thanks in advance.
someone who plays there maybe can get the cardroom to post it on the events page.
For Harrah's East Chicago, Indiana
Every Mon.: 7 Card Stud start time is 5:45pm $5.00 entry $20 buy-in $20 re-buys $20 add-ons
Every Tues.: Hold'em start time is 5:45pm $5.00 entry $20 buy-in $20 re-buys $20 add-ons
Every Wed.: Omaha Hi/Low start time is 5:45pm $10 entry $50 buy-in $40 re-buys $40 add-ons
Every Thurs.: Hod'em start time is 5:45pm $10 entry $50 buy-in $40 re-buys $40 add-ons
X
AK more than any other hand should move all in against a preflop raise who figures too have something that may not be all that great. I am spesking about move ins that are somewhere between one and a half and five times the size of the pot. This is intuitively obvious to many people but the reasons are somewhat complex. Who would like to tell me what they are?
Dave,
Is it an "all in" move or a bet of 1 1/2 to 5 times the size of the pot. Are you saying to make the raiser with the not to great hand make a 3-1 to 10-1 decision to call all your chips.
If he doesn't have not to great a hand, say AJ to 77.
If he is a good player and you have a good table image I suspect he will fold his not to good hand. If he is a gambler or looking for "correct" odds he may call.
Let's say he knows you have 2 over cards and he has a med. pair he is I believe a 11-10 fav. should he call call an all in almost even money bet for 10 - 1 pot odds. You have to put him to a decision for all his chips that's where the rubber meats the road in NL HE. His decision has little to do with pot size at this point - the decision depends on stack sizes and table images. If you get beat doesn't matter what odds you had you are on your way out to the parking lot.
Player OUT!
AK dimishes the odds of the original raiser, or the blinds, holding AA or KK. AK also crushes AQ, AJ, etc..
The problem with making the same all in move with a hand such as 77 is you could be up against a bigger pair, and now you are a huge underdog.
1. AKo benefits greatly from seeing five cards as opposed to three. When you miss the flop, it is difficult to evaluate your situation, and when you pair, your opponent will often be able to get away from a second-best hand. With a pair, the backdoor outs are much less significant. When AK is behind on the flop, you'll often have six outs twice if you were all-in. With a pair, you only have two outs twice.
2. The chance of facing a dominating hand are very small. It depends on the situation, but the chance of facing AA or KK is vastly diminished by your holding an ace and king.
3. If your opponent has a pair, you prefer that he folds (tournament conditions make this even more true), and your all-in reraise might do this.
4. If your opponent has something like AQ, you want the hand to be all-in so that you still get paid if the flop is king-high. And if the flop is queen-high, you still have a decent chance to draw out.
Dan I agree with your assessment, with one exception in NL HE if you don't flop to AK and there is action it is best to get out if you can.
I agree that you almost always should fold AK when you miss the flop and there is action. My point was that being all-in with AK allows you to spike backdoor outs on the turn and river, while if you weren't all-in, you would usually have to fold when you miss the flop.
I agree with your position. The main reason to move all-in is to see 5 cards. Sklansky says "against a preflop raise who figures to have something that may not be all that great. I am speaking about move ins that are somewhere between one and a half and five times the size of the pot ..."
Okay, "something that may not be all that great" sounds a bit fuzzy, but I'll take a crack at it as being defined as a hand such as Q-J offsuit, 6-6, or maybe even a weak Ace. It should be easy enough to specifically define it as NOT holding A-A or K-K. Any other hand should fit closely to my 3 sample hands (Q-Q is about the same as 6-6 if you are holding A-K; actually, it's a bit worse since you have slightly crippled the top side of the Q-Q making a backdoor straight draw).
Against the Q-J off, the A-K is approx. a 2-1 favorite; against the 6-6, the A-K is approx. even-money; against the weak Ace (i.e., A-7 suited), the A-K is a little better than 2-1 favorite.
Two reasons for making the correct bet: One being to force the decision of the "not all that great hand", and the second reason for making the correct move-in amount is also to prevent anyone behind you from having the correct odds to "run the race". If you only moved in with a pot-sized bet, a hand behind you requiring 2-1 or less is given the correct price to call. If you move in with a bet of 1 1/2 the pot (or greater), the downrange player is denied the correct price to play.
There are other examples, but this is the beauty of a no-limit game. Bad calls abound, and unlike a limit game, you are somewhat in control of setting the price your opponents get.
"Something that may not be all that great"
My Interpretation: A pair smaller than K,K or a pairless hand A,Q or less.
"intuitively obvious" (to Vince):
Against any of the above not so great hands I am either a slight dog or a big favorite when seeing all five board cards. In either case I am getting the best of it considering pot odds. Couple that with the possibility that the original raiser may fold and I become a slight to big favorite.
"the reasons are somewhat complex"
If the reasons are more complex than my intuitive response the ball is in your court.
Vince.
You guys are basically right. The complex reason that I was talking about relates to a concept that is better known in backgammon. That concept is that a bettor gains the most from his bet when the opponent has a tough decision. Thus when an opponent bets about the size of the pot on the flop, you care little with two wins or twelve wins. But with six wins you sure wish he was all in instead.
You're not likely to be up against a pair of Aces or Kings (mathematically speaking) which are the only hands that can wack you.
If someone is holding a pocket pair other than Aces or Kings you will make a pair by the river approximately 48% of the time.
Lastly, if your opponent has an A with a weaker kicker you will allways be the favorite.
I'm a bit late on this one but anyway, two additional points : you might more action when you re-raise with AA or KK at a later date ; and in the games I play in you can be even happier with this play against many people who like to limp with AA or KK too often, so their raise actually makes it _even less_ likely that you have a problem.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
During the Pot of Gold Tournament I found something new. They were offering the choice of Smoking or No Smoking tables to start off with - there where no guarantees as to table changes.
I thought I like to play with people who are not smarter than I am so I picked the smoking stack of table/seat chits. I was a 4 pack a day guy in 1983 when I quit cold turkey so I know it is possible if you have some dicipline. As an aside I like to find tattoos at my table too - anyone dumb eneough to disfigure their body for life can't be the sharpest knife in the drawer there are exceptions to these of course.
What do you guys think are smokers better players than non-smokers or what.
I wouldn't care, I'd still pick the non-smokers.
Danny S
I have had to make this choice a number of times. I usually play in the non-smoking area (nsa). At the Trop in AC, the nsa is often frequented by older players. Oddly enough the cards used in that area are the over sized printing with the rational that older players need larger sized print. Anyway, I find there are many more "rocks" in the nsa. I also find that the ns are tighter players. I like playing in a ns environment, but I find my hourly rate is lower in the ns section. Smokers seem to be a bit looser. Often they are more fun, but the smoke is a problem.
So, the question is still not answered since the nsa also seems to have older folks playing and it is difficult to say if the nsa area is more difficult because of nature of non-smokers or because they might be older.
Nothing better than playing in a 5-10 ns 7CS when some of the 15-30 smokers stop by while waiting for a table in the smoking section. The 5-10 dudes beat the 15-30 smokers to a pulp.
Oh yes, I am a former smoker and currently employeed in health care. I encourage smoking. We'll see all you smokers one of these days in a hospital bed. We'll take good care of you, cough, cough. I promise.
ratso,
Those cards s=== I can't stand those big cards. The 93 year old snuffed me once but he has more tells on him than a train whistle, but I left before I went up against him again. Fossilman would love it there just waiting for them to "woody" into stone.
paul
ps: NS is the way to go though without the big cards
4 packs a day!!!!!! Congrats on quitting! I quit a one pack a day 22 years ago when I was 15, I thought that was tough, but FOUR! ffffffffuuuuuuuccccccckkkkkk!!!!!
T.K.
i would expect the smoker section to have players of lower intelligence. whether that means they play worse or not you guess. it may not translate to looser play. why would anyone want to endanger their health just to make a slighly higher hourly rate is beyond me. even if you mistakenly believe that it doesnt hurt your health, if you are a non smoker it certainly isnt as much fun sitting now in a game that is overloaded with smoking. since playing poker alot of hours a year, fun must enter into your choices. sitting long hours with people you cannot relate to or have meaningful conversation with means you are wasting your life.
You said "i would expect the smoker section to have players of lower intelligence." Not true.
Tobacco contains a highly addictive substance. It is no different from being a drug addict or alcoholic. Smoking has nothing to do with intelligence.
mah,
you are right on an individual basis but i believe i am right across the spectrum. besides dont even those that smoke always say "i must be stupid to smoke" (:>
Ray,
They usually only say that when they are with non-smokers just to get them off their backs.
Not really to change the subject a whole lot, but what the hell is our government doing with all that tax money they collect from smokes?
Well, I believe the goverment should take that money and spend it on medication for the one's that don't have the will power to quit on their own, since most health care plans do not cover medications like Zyban.
Just my opinion.
yes it should go to the health side of it. many states just put it in their general fund and waste it. some are starting new govt. bureaus to administer it(sad). the new commercials that are being financed with some of the money actually look like ads for the tobacco companies to me. i think they got to get some input on the ads for giving the money. ive had quite a few friends die recently and they were all less than 70,(mostly 50's) and cancer got them.
Well said! Most people start smoking in High School or College and most will never quit once they are addicted. It really does not matter where it is banned or how much advertising is done. The only way they can quit is with treatment. A very small percentage can quit on their own.
"Smoking has nothing to do with intelligence"
How true! How true!
Vince.
"Smoking has nothing to do with intelligence"
How TRUE! How TRUE! $4/PACK
Vince LOOKS LIKE -EV TO ME!!!!
Just Another Bozo On The Bus!!!!
Limit HE $55 buyin Rebuys 1st 3 rounds 83 play 153 rebuys I never have to rebuy.
I'm at the final table with the chip lead 40k out of 118k total chips 10 at the table - can't make the deal I want, so we play.
Question is do I sit on the lead? - blinds are at 3K/6K limit is 6K/12K.
I am playing well and have a great table image - make two big plays earlier and players were talking about them at the break. One in particular was a good move if I do say so myself. I'll post the hand later.
So what do you do?? - 1st hand I'm on the button passed to me I have QQ - SB has T$12K BB is 2nd chip leader with T$26k.
10th place is $650 1st $4600
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Move in with the queens. I was in the same situation several months ago. I moved in on the button, the BB looked at me and called. The BB lost with an AJ unsuited. It's too good to pass up.
Depends upon the other players. If they're afraid of you (as they should be), then do as Badger says and steal the blinds whenever you have a reasonable hand. If they're calling or reraising liberally, then only come in with solid hands that figure to be the favorite.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You are waitng for a great hand, but QQ is great. I lost last night by doing this with TT which is not great as I found out.
Rounder,
QQ on the button, it's passed to you and you are wondering what to do? What are you waiting for, KJo or J10 suited so you can lose? You need to be using your good hands to be applying maximum pressure on everyone at the table. You position as chip leader gives you a big stick to threaten them with. You are able to get people to throw away hands that they would play against smaller stacks. I'm moving to Arizona!
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Big John,
I raised the QQ's and went against a AcKc QQ got cracked on the river by a c flush. AA, AK TT all cracked by inferior hands I came in 8th - felt bad but got the hands and had to play them.
You did right. If you get to the point where you are afraid to play strong in that situation, you are better off leaving the table and allowing them to blind you off. At least that way you won't do something silly like coming in, second UTG for a raise with KJo. I am a firm believer that the fear of failure is the number 1 cause of it. If I'm going to get knocked out, I want it to be when I am playing from strength, not by my having to play out of necessity. Your pocket QQ's lost to AKc. You played it correctly. You were only the slightest of favorites preflop when he called you, but, QQ against two random hands will always be a big favorite.
Without looking at any responses first, with the Qs on the button you should say, "I raise, I've got a big pocket pair, guys."
Just read how the hand turned out. Bummer, Man. You had to play it, though. LOL next time.
To further elaborate on my advice, IMO opinion you DON'T especially want callers, unless the call get's 'em all in. Just take the 9K and move on.
You are of course, correct, but Q-Q against A-K isn't much of a favorite -- and certainly the worst case "random hand" that anyone would expect to run into. Tough luck.
Note that in a stud tourney, with a similar chip lead, high antes and limits, it might be better to play the big pairs (A-A, K-K, or Q-Q) a bit slower than in HE (although I would still raise the opening bet).
NL HE tourney last night. Player in seat 10 goes all in after the flop when QQ rag come up. Four players saw the flop, bunch of cards come sailing in, the dealer said ( I think I remember this; "is that it"?). Seat 10 mucks his hand after the dealer pushes him the pot which mixed in with his chips. Seat 4 player says "what about my hand?". He had cards back near his money, no one saw cards, he didn't say anything. Floor person came over and told him he should have said something before and the pot went to 10. Some players said the cards should have got the pot, although I think ten kept his cards until the pot was pushed to him. What happens if this is a cash game? Thanks for any replies.
Dave it is not hard to re-creat the pot - the 10 seat's cards should be retrieved if there not mucked and the hand played out if 10 mucked then the guy with cards should get the pot.
What?
The post said that the guy mucked his hand AFTER the pot had been pushed to him. Only then did the guy with the hidden cards speak up. I would easily rule that the guy with the hidden cards is SOL for not speaking up before the pot was pushed to another player.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
the more knowledgeable casinos that ive played in will consider that the action has passed you if two or more people have acted after you and you had time to stop the action. these are always tough calls and thats why you as a player must be aware and say something when you are in a pot or face an adverse decision. just as we can say that the hidden hand took a shot by seeing if anyone else would call, the all in hand let everyone else fold so that the person with the cards couldnt. this is why players must demand better dealers and rules to follow from the cardroom that is collecting over 100 an hour from the table. the cardrooms that do it right seem to get the most business.
$55 buyin unlimited rebuys blinds at $50/$100 limit HE. I have $4k in chips and am table chip leader. My table image is great I have played 4 hands and won all of them.
I am in BB with KTo - UTG raises, his pal accross the table in mid position raises I call UTG reraises and pal caps. I am tempted to fold but these guys (both loose Asians) like to put in raises for the heck of it and they particurally like to raise each other. Hell, I can't get busted by eigther and I can still add on a grand so I call the cap.
Flop is T 8 3 rainbow - I check UTG bets pal raises I call UTG calls. Turn is a 3 I check, UTG checks and pal bets I raise - UTG looks at me (I took him out in the last tournament) mucks KK pal goes all in I show the KT pal never showed he just mucked and said rebuy.
UTG turns a pale white says nice hand, I put you on a pair of 8's.
Columbus took a gamble and so did I. Actually I thought my TT had a good chance when I check raised.
Comments:
i wouldnt be calling two raises out of the blind with king ten. this is proof that you talk tight and play loose(Big John please take notice). your aggressive playing saves you from disaster. one thing to see is that these two friends raise each other back and forth. many that dont understand would think they were playing partners. but as we see from the hand they are the normal maniacs that are found in the poker world.
Ray, Is it not possible for a tight player to divert from his playing style in the right circumstances.
My raises were getting to much respect and if I lost this one I was planning to show it (advertise it).
BTW any two players I muck on 1st raise. I called a cap and set up the rereise on the turn.
Rounder,
of course you need to divert for the right circumstances. you play well and seem to plan your spots. this spot was a bad on however. there is a big difference from bringing it in with a raise and calling other raises even from bad players. i also feel anytime you show something it works against you unless its done in a situation that gives out no info.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Wow.
I'm speechless.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You have to quit quoting T.J. "Columbus took a chance" so when are you going to play 72 suited for all your money? You know T.J. did.
No very soon. Don't hold your breath.
Commerce Casino $120 buy in stud tournament final table approx. 82,000 chips in play 5 players left chip leader 28,000 I'm next 18,000 balance pretty much evenly split.Low card brings it in for 500 fold,fold,I'm next ,10d door card AdKd in the hole I complete to 2000,chip leader doorcard Jh reraises should I have called P.S. I'm from N.Y. smoke 2packs day but found that asmoke free casino is terrific also Commerce beats anything on the East coast
I peel one off here for 2k, but gotta give the guy Jacks. You can catch a ton of scare cards on 4th street, all of which help you and he's going to have to act first unless you improve.
If I catch a brick, I'm probably done, though.
I would definitely put the chip leader on a pair of Jacks, unless you know him to be ultra aggressive and on a steal.
Either way, you have already committed $2,000, there is now $7,000 in the pot (assumming the antes were $100)and you do have two overcards to his Jack and three diamonds. I would call and see what 4th street brings. the ony trouble with a hand like this is you sometimes get sucked in and have to go all the way with it, especially if another diamond comes on 4th street.
If you decide that you are indeed going all the way with it even if you get a brick on 4th street (which I am not sure I would suggest), I would then raise him back. maybe he will put you on a high pair and fold right there and you become the chip leader with him. It also makes him have to decide if he wants to go all the way with his hand and go from chip leader to being close to knocked out if you beat him.
Either way, I would have called.
You tighten up a bit in these situations as compared to a normal ring game, but not enough to fold with that hand.
I called the raise bought 6d,J bet,I called ,5th street I buy 8c ,bet, Icall , 6thst I buy 9s,leader checks,I now have a4flush gut shot and two over cards elect to take free card dont improve and lose to jacks.Reflecting on the hand I think I should have check raised on 5th st or bet on 6th street .
I could not have check raised 5th st , but perhaps I should have raised.I was playing real solid up to this point but then went on tilt and got knocked out shortly thereafter
.
I'd re raise if: 1) your cards are live, No A,K or 10s out and no more than 1 diamond and 2) there were no other higher cards out behind the Jack when he raised, making it more likly that he is trying to steal,(specifically I'm talking about a Q here, if any King or ace is out you should fold because it's not only tougher for you to catch a hand it's also tougher for you to represent K's or A's in the hole). 3) Your opp. is not overly aggressive. Otherwise I'd fold.
You have a good hand here heads up but only if you are in control because this close to the money people tend to get wimpy. If you don't raise your only shot is to catch your card on 4th St, which is OK. If you miss, he bets, you fold (correctly). If you catch, you bet and because the pot is not that big, he folds (correctly). However, playing hands like this creativly is a great way to win yourself some extra chips (and a much better shot at winning the tournement) without much added risk. First, your raise wins the pot if he is trying to steal. If he calls your raise, he has at least Jacks, which is good to know. The thing that I like best about this hand agaist a weak or non agressive player is that unless you catch a queen (or possibly a Jack if he catches a baby), you only have to bet first if you are in the lead (unless he's rolled up). That's a pretty good spot to be in because it cuts down your risk. After your raise, your opp. is liable to be a little gun shy on 4th street if he has to lead - if you have to lead, you're winning. There are 9 cards in the deck that put you in the lead or win you the pot when you bet or check raise - Any A, K or 10. There are 6 cards that will almost always(IF you raise on third st.) get you to 5th street for free - Any Q or J. Plus you have 9 (excluding the Q or J) additional diamonds, which along with your overcards, give you a good shot at drawing out on him - so you can bet or check or call his bet. If you miss completly, your raise means there is still a pretty good chance it will be checked to you (if your opp does bet, your raise may have (unfortunatly) given you the correct pot odds to call) - Pot odds or no, in order to keep this play "risk free" I'd fold and protect my remaining chips. If you catch you bet and win the pot (or he makes a bad call). If you catch you win more than if you only called. If you miss, you now still have a shot at the pot if he checks (which he wouldn't have if you hadn't raised).
If you get to 5th street for free and miss, you check after he does, hoping for another free card and fold if he bets. If you catch on 5th street you can bet or check raise - chances are pretty good you are going to see a bet here if you showed weakness on 4th street AND 5th street so a check raise could work here. Now, if you've missed twice, it hasn't cost you much and you are still in good shape after you fold.
Of course there are other variables - the deception factor if you back door a flush, the fact that people will notice your tendency to re raise as a "steal"(if you have to fold after your raise on if he re raises on third or he bets on forth) which might get you an extra bet or two when you have a "real hand". The fact that you will "respect" a re raise and lay down your hand etc.
If you add it all up, I think you have given yourself a much better chance of winning (and winning more chips) by raising.
Of course, I could be wrong.......
Anyone got a schedule for Continental Europe's tournament schedule for February and March 2000. I'm headed there and would like to play some when I get there. Info on games and limits would also help.
Thanks.
Vince.
Vinny,
Poker Digest Dec. 17/30 has the schedule on page 75.
I am planning to go to the UK HE Championship in Birmingham England, I lived in the UK most of the 80's and try to get back for the Cheltnham races in March.
Give me your itinery and I'll match it up with the schedule if you can't find a PD.
Go to "Favorite links" on the left and click on the EPPA link. There you should be able to find the information you need.
If you don't look me up when in Europe, I'll be seriously offended. Let's say Concord, Vienna, ok?
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World since 1389!
http://izmet.desetka.si
One of the more difficult questions I have in a local NL HE tourney is when and how to steal blinds. Could someone give me some general guidelines for SB, Button, and one off the Button steals. What hands and what raises? I find that if I get A4 offsuit, I wimp out. If I get Q9 offsuit, I wimp out. I am not being aggressive enough and stealing would really help me get further in the tourney. Help
The essential presupposition behind the act or intent of "making a steal" is that one is trying to win the pot without having to face a caller. Given this assumption, steal against someone who is psychologically weak (a wimp) and/or, financially weak (a shortstack), and/or both. Focus on the player not the cards. Hell, I don't even look at my cards once I SENSE these player supplied stealing opportunities. When it comes to stealing, play the player (and his stack).
Making final tables and winning tournaments is about stealing blinds.
Don't do it all the time - when it is passed to yo uand you are on the button or one off make a big raise - make sure not to try to steal from an aggressive or bad player you might get called to much.
Try to pick up on tells from guys 2/3 to your left - do they load up, how do they handle their cards when they are gonna bet and how do they act when they are gonna fold. You have to know your players to steal from them.
A-4 is a legit hand on the button with no callers - Q9 is more of a steal I like atleast a Kx to do the steal thing.
Like Kojee said, it's more about the players than it is about your hand. If you're confident that they will fold, then who cares whether you've got AA or 23?
Get a feel for how likely it is that the blinds (and any non-blind hands behind you) will fold to a raise from you. Then, with that info in mind, decide with what hands you will raise. For example, if you see the blinds looking ready to fold, then your standard is "any 2 cards". Only now that you've made up your mind, and it's your turn to act, do you look at your cards. If the cards you see are within your criteria to steal on this hand, then quickly raise.
An example might be a spot where the big blind has about 5 blinds left in his stack. As such, he's in a perfect spot to fold, as he can afford to fold, but if he calls, he's committed to the play the hand to the end. However, let's say the small blind is a solid player with a big stack. He isn't a maniac, so he won't come back at you with just anything, but if he has a legitimate hand, he's going to play with you. At this point, you decide to raise with any pair, any A, or KQ. Make that decision, look at your hand, and quickly fold or raise. DO NOT ever second-guess yourself and delay.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Anyone can try to steal from the button or one off the button. The better players will raise you back with nothing. The very best players learn how to steal from up front.
Good thought Earl but this is advice to a beginning player - I often steal from earlier positions but you can't teach that in a short post, hell I don't think you can "teach" that to anyone - it would be like Michael Jordan trying to "teach" his take off from the top of the key 360 slam dunk - You get it, some things you just can't teach - Guess that is why Sklansky sticks to the "if the odds are there bet it" stick.
anyone have names of winners of the tournament at the Taj. Finals were yesterday.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I like that kid. He doesn't make deals!
Vince
Oh, the crying that must have produced! Few players of this or any other generation, can whine, cry, wheedle and plead at anything approaching John Bonetti's level. While the man has unquestioned tournament skills, it isn't much fun listening to the constant grousing and complaining about all the unlucky dealers and his constant bad luck, that seems to spew forth, unceasingly, from his lips. In a recent NL Hold-em at the Bike, he went all in with J8o, first in on the button; I'm the BB and call him with AKo. Flop comes QJx, turn J, river 10. I make a straight, he goes home. Next day, after listening to Bonetti's tale of lament, Max Shapiro, in his written tournament summary sheet, characterizes that hand as a "horrific bad beat for Bonetti". Where I come from, had his three J's stood up, it would have been me that suffered the bad beat. Once the money all goes in, whoever had the worst hand, at that point, can't claim to have suffered a bad beat.
Meanwhile Daniel had just recently posted on RGP that he had learned the wisdom of settling for 3rd 4th or 5th place if the situation called for it. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned there.
I find that interesting if not a little sad. He was in my recollection adamant about how making a deal and/or not playing to win was not part of his character.
Vince.
So did Daniel and Bonetti make a deal? I also know Daniel as someone who said he NEVER makes a deal. So that would surprise me, although when I heard he was heads up with Bonetti it made me wodner if he kept to his No Deal ways.
I actually liked the fact that he never made deals. And even if he changed his mind, thats fine too. I am just curious if there was a deal made in this case.
Gambler
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
First of all, eeven though I consider Bonetti a friend there was, and never be a deal made if I'm involved. Secondly, David may have misunderstood my post on RGP, I don't "settle" for 3rd or 4th, I simply get there more often because I've found a better strategy late in the tournaments. It really hasn't comprimised me winning any tournaments, it's just that I don't always have the chip lead anymore. More 3rds and 4ths less 12ths and 13ths. Daniel Negreanu
Daniel Negreanu,
Thanks for clearing that up!
You have reinvigorated my faith in humanity!
I will now root for you in every tournament that I do not enter. Then I hope you finish second. By the way we played in an O'rleans tourney once or twice, same table. You got knocked out early. Just thought I'd mention it!
CONGRATULATIONS on Your Win at the USPC!
Vince.
I chose a poor word in "settle". There are times when it is worth reducing your chances of winning SLIGHTLY in order to give yourself a good chance to move well up the ladder. Thus as Daniel said, more 3rds, less twelfths. But you will still win quite often with this stategy (which is what I meant when I said there was a lesson to be learned from his win) as well as come out further ahead in the long run.
"constant grousing and complaining "
That's all he did when I found him sitting to my left in a recent stud tournament. Whining and whining and whining.
JB complained relatively little suring the USPC. Of course he had little reason to, he had a great run. At the main event, when all the chips were in the middle, he just said, "I know you got the flush draw, if you get there you beat me." He stuck to his word, no bitching, no moaning, no complaining. Oh, and I am quite certain there was no deal made. They did not even take a break once they were at the final 2. In addition DN started the final 2 with the chip lead which eventually went to JB.
I won my first tourney today but the final hand wasn't very satisfying and left me with some questions. The situation at the beginning of heads up play was that I had about 6-70000 and my opponent had about half that. The blinds were 3/5000. Almost everytime that my opponent had the small blind he went all in and I folded with hands Qx or worse. When I was in the small blind I folded almost every hand because I had Jx or worse. The tide started to change quite quickly and I finally took a stand with K10o. At that point my opponent had about 5-6000 less than me. Of course, my opponent turns over QQ (he can't be having that every time he goes all in!) but I got lucky and hit a straight on the river to win.
Please give me some help for this kind of situation. Was I right to call the all in with K10o (considering that he was going all in on 2/3+ of the hands)? Should I be more aggressive in the small blind with only Jx or worse?
I was hoping someone else would have responed to your post. But, I would bet the pot (the total amount of the blinds) if I had the small blind and was playing head up, not everytime I had the small blind, but enough to put pressure on him. With this play I don't think its that important what you are holding, because it would be hard for him in the big blind to move in on you. You want to put some pressure on him and you don't want to lose your chip lead.
The only way to beat a bully is to let him know that you can be a bully too.
You must know that HU play is VERY different from regular play.
Sometimes random raising (regardless of your hand) can slow a bully down. When you are first to act SHOW STRENGTH often (raise at least 1/3 of the time). You may steal some blinds, get credibility for post flop bluffs, or get action on your premium hands.
If you play conservatively real players will catch on and blind you out.
But I could be wrong.
Head's up in a NL tourney, both of you should be making moves when you're the sb. In the BB, you are hoping to get something good enough to make a stand with. Timidness is the biggest enemy when head's up in NL. Remember that being aggressive is better than waiting in hopes of springing a trap. If he folds to your all in moves, you get the antes and blinds, if he calls, you still might win if you outflop him. If you pick up a real monster in the sb, that is the time to maybe just limp in and let him make a mistake. I will limp from the sb with some poor hands also, willing to muck if he plays back significantly. You vary your play in those situations so that when you show weakness with a monster you can finish him off if he falls for it or might win it all later when he might catch a piece of the flop when you have an overpair or a set.
I can understand the basic strategy when I have the small blind, but my opponent was raising all in when he had the s.b. so calling would have crippled me if he won the pot. With hands like Qx and worse I don't think can afford to call. I suppose that if I had been more aggressive in the small blind I would have held my lead longer so that I could call with a better hand. This is probably my least favorite part about NL hold 'em, the all-in crap shoot aspect.
Arguably, this least favorite part is the one requiring the most playing skill. When there is a lot of money at stake, every sense is heightened and you start to lose focus on the extraneous things occurring around you. Time seems to pass quickly and decisions come more easily. You become more certain in your convictions. If you lose suddenly, in a single climactic hand, this feeling suddenly disappears and you feel instantly tired and drained.
Bit like sex huh John.
No, in my case, sex is closer to solitaire.;<)
As you can see, the small blind will always have an advantage heads up due to position. I suggest the following:
Take a deck of cards, shuffle, deal out two hands. Try this for a 100 times so you can visualize the relative values.
Actually Qx is not a bad hand heads up - I recon J5 is about the middle of the back as far as hands go so Qx is above average.
Your right about the crap shoot part of the heads up part. I like to play heads up with a good player who will make reasonable bets any a--hole can go all in on every hand but there is a skill to but both players have to understand it.
I agree with many of the posters that you have to play more agressivly in the SB. Obviously there is no reason to take a stand with junk in the BB if your opponant keeps moving all in.
I was in a similar circumstance in a satelitte at5 the Orleans a couple opf years ago. An agressive player moved in on every small blind. I just kept giving them up ( I had a 2-1 chip lead).
The purpose of playing some of your SB hands against a player like this is that it enables you to accumulate enough chips to allow you a bit more time to wait for him to move in on you when you can call.
Against a player like this, I would frequently limp from the SB, he is likely to keep jaming the pot. just lay down crap. Eventually call his all-in (from either blind)with any pair higher than 8's,any king jack or better, or any ace with a card higher than a nine. Your king ten is real border line. Queen-8 is the average hand, but when you have aplayer willing to move all of his chips in every hand, there is no need to have only a slightly above average hand to call. If you wait a few hands you will be able to trap him with better hands.
Lets say you have 70k and the blinds are 1k-2k. If he keeps moving in 35K you can wait at least 10 hands before playing one. Even when limping and folding on the SB.
I just saw the new Poker Digest. And congratulations to Miami John & the Comm..er, Canadians for their wins at Foxwoods and the Taj.
Hope to see everybody at the Commerce 1/29-2/5. We'll have a beer (NA, in my case(pun intended), of course-see Other Topics Forum) and laugh about the idea of building a livable, working bankroll by starting with your "couple of buy-ins" X-mas bonus and taking shots at 10-20 games...
If Badger drinks enough beer, maybe we can get him to challenge Miami, Marlon, Daniel, or Scotty to that heads-up O8 match we all want to see.... :)
.
No limit hold'em tourney down to 9 players from 55. Paying five places. 1st- $2300, 2nd- $1100, 3rd- $700, 4th- $400 and 5th- $240. These are approximate, but I sure about the 5th, 2nd, and 1st place amounts.
There are 47,000 in chips in play and I have 2600. The chips are pretty evenly spread, and there ae only two stacks that are slightly smaller than mine. The blinds are 400/800 and we just began this 20 minute round.
I post the small blind and pick up pocket Jacks. It is folded around to an aggressive player (Melissa Hayden) on the button. She raises it to 2000. She has about 6k. While she has not been raising indiscrimately (we just joined tables about 15 minutes ago), I figure she is a pretty tough player and could rightly be raising with many hands that I can easily beat. I move move all-in for my 2600 and she calls and flips up pocket Aces.
I say "I guess I need a Jack." and actually catch one on the flop. This is the first time I've been on the good side of a bad beat in a long time.
I get lucky and double up. She grumbles a bit that I shouldn't be in love with my Jacks here since it is "obvious" that everyone is playing tight since we are near the money. What am I missing. If you can't cal a button raise with pocket Jacks in this situation, maybe I should be raising nearly every hand to stael the blinds?
Sounds like sour grapes to me, but she has won a lot more money in tournaments than I have.
How quickly they forget,about seven months ago I had aces put her allin she had Q's she flopped aset,next week I have K's put her all in with 10"s she flops a set .She is an excellent player , but definitely sourgrapes.
You shouldn't be in love with your Jacks when you don't even have enough to get through two more rounds of blinds?!?!! Is she kidding?? What are the chances you'll see a better hand?
As for raising nearly every hand to steal the blinds.. Not a great idea. However, selective stealing is requied. In my opinion, it offers you the best opportunity to get into the better money spots. Each time you succesfully steal gives you an additional round to get a "real hand". Also keep in mind that a "stealing" hand in a full game (or when you are in early position) is often a "real" hand in a shorthanded game (or when you are in a late position and no one else is in).
Anyway..... How'd you end up doing?
>You shouldn't be in love with your Jacks when you >don't even have enough to get through two more rounds >of blinds?!?!
I think this is the situation where you *should* be in love with those jacks. It is a premium hand and the most likely holding in this spot to make you some money.
Ben.
Your not missing anything Mike.
If everyone is playing tight as she said, then it would be correct for her to try to steal the blinds. You were dealt a pretty good hand and should definately call. This time she had a real hand and you got lucky. Poor Melissa.
I don't think she is as good as others think. But I find her very annoying with all her whinning, and that may be clouding my judgement. I suspect she does better than she would otherwise because she annoys everyone around her (men and women both) and they play less than their best. Perhaps she does this on purpose. ;-)
who says she has aces here. Plus is this thge Trop and is she good-looking?
Mike you did well win or lose you have to call the button raise with the JJ she could easily be on TT or 77 and made the same bet.
You have to stay aggressive to win - you don't have eneough chips to sit it out so go for it.
I just finihed reading a chapter in McEvoys Tournament book. A section in the chapter dealt with Tournament Backers. McEvoy stated that his Backer is or was Phil Hellmuth. He also stated that Hellmuth backs multiple pro's. He continued to say that these pros sometimes compete in the same tournaments. He then advised the reader that there was nothing to worry about with regards to collusion because these pro's were honorable people and wouldn't stoop to such a thing. (paraphrased). Hmmm. I wonder. Any comments?
Vince.
It has been my experience that Phil Hellmuth, in his overwhelming need and desire to win, is capable of advanced levels of stooping when in the throes of active competition. I have personally witnessed "soft play" between people who've traded percentages with each other. Collusion in tournaments exists. I wish Mason would come play the tournament circuit so that this form of cheating would be eradicated. ;< )
When there is money involved, "stooping" is ALWAYS possible. Poker, business, horse racing, it doesnt matter. Its always possible and more than likely.
Gambler
I was playing in a NL tourney and two poker writers from Card Player Mag were sitting right next to each other. It could have been coincidence, but I never seen them play in a pot together. But, then I got lucky and knocked one of them out. Boy, was she pissed.
Vince I am convinced there is collusion in a lot of the tournaments I play in Arizona. The pack or 6 or so guys are in it together - once I figured it out I use it to my advantage. I feel like reporting them to the Casinos but I am beating them on a regular basis now so I have not said anything. That can change.
the problem is that many of the tournament players that have pieces of other players are good tokers. the management wont offend them. the only way (one way to help) tournaments to be legit is to require eveyyone to divulge all people that have pieces of them.(hard to enforce) and to only pay out to each finisher his share based on his finish. and put that exact amount on his irs form. the management should take no part in deals.
Hi all! This is my first post although I have been reading different posts on this forum for the past two weeks and I have really learned a lot of information. I am mainly a LL Hold Em player (2-5 spread) since that is all they allow here in the Colorado casinos. I have played less than 20 hours of stud ever, although I have participated in 31 holdem tournaments and usually hold my own with 9 final table finishes.
Yesterday I played in my first NL 7CS tournament. It was a small local tournament - $30 buyin ($1000T), $5 entry fee, 2 $30 rebuys ($1000T) until a break at the end of the first hour. At the break if you still had rebuys left you could get $2500T for both rebuys or $1500T for 1 rebuy. They actually ran it like a Hold 'Em tournament with blinds - new to me for stud - but like I said I am very inexperienced in this game.
Blinds start out at $25-50, and double every 20 minutes. Top four get paid at 50%, 25%, 15%, 10% and total prize money of $1800.
Now for the actual hand: Final table - 6 players remaining - Blinds $400, $800, SB - ~2000T, BB - ~1800T, 3rd seat - ~35,000T(chip leader), 4th seat - ~3000T, 5th seat - 1500T, and 6th seat (me) - $16,000T.
The hands look like this - SB xx6d, BB xxQs, xx8d, xx4d, xxJc, AsQh(Kd)(me). 3rd and 4th seat fold and then fourth seat moves all in for $1500T. 4th Street was a solid player(placed in the tournament previous week) and I really believed he could have a pair of Js, still I felt since it was a small amount of my chips for a chance of eliminating a player I had to call. I figured I had many ways of winning - having only 1Q dead of 9 overcards plus chances at the broadway. I called w/o hesitation and both blinds folded. Was this a bad play? Sounds like a silly question right? Before answering please read the rest of the post.
The hand ended up playing like this: Other player: KcAcJcxxxJd Me: AsQhKdxKsxx I ended up winning the hand with the pair of Kings. Makes the question seem even sillier, right?
Well anyway after the tournament, I was talking to some of the other players - including the guy I knocked out and some other regular 7CS players, and I said I thought that the player in 5th street had a pair of Js but I felt I had to call. They all stated that I had gotten really lucky and I shouldn't have called. Like I said earlier I am a new 7 CS player. I felt most of the players were much stronger 7CS players than myself, but weaker tournament players - if that makes any sense?) - since I thought the guy might have a pair of Js was this really a bad call?
BTW - I ended up getting second. I don't think I left anything out, but if I did I sure Vince will let me know. %^)
Comments welcome.
Lonnie Snyder
I never played stud before that has a big blind and a small blind, but I'll take a shot anyway. If I have a stack of 16,000 and can call an all-in bet for less than 10% of my stack (you said he had 1500, right?) I'll call every time here.
If I am interpretting this correctly, all other players folded and you could buy four cards to knock this guy out for 1500, plus win his bet and whatever ante/blind money in the pot. Seems like a positive value play with any three cards, unless you know he is rolled-up. The fact that you have good cards is a bonus.
Maybe I'm missing something as your post wasn't particularly clear. And Iv'e never played no-limit 7CS, but I would think that it has an ante and low-card bring in like regular stud.
Michael7,
First of all thanks for the reply! And yes it was less than 10% of my stack and my thought process was very similar to yours.
Actually it wasn't like regular stud where the low-card brings it in - they had actual blinds with no antes. In the hand I was on the button so both blinds were yet to act but they were low in chip position and I figured they would fold. So essentially I figured on getting four free cards for a small price.
Hope this makes it more clearful.
Lonnie Snyder
You'd have done just as well sitting on your hands, particularly with just 3 overcards. While A-Ko is a nice hand in hold-em, A-K-Qo is only a marginal hand in stud. Seeing as you were second chip leader, you could've waited on a more quality hand to play.
However, it's a close decision since you have a shot at eliminating one of your opponents. More often than not though, all you accomplish trying to do that is weakening your own stack. In fast-action stud tournaments, it may be an overrated play to take on the smaller stacks with marginal hands, unless they are MUCH smaller, since all you do is give them a free roll to suck out on you -- and in stud, they don't have nearly as far to go. Since the blinds weren't that big in relation to your stack, you had maneuvering room (and time). The flip side of that is, if you lose a couple of marginal hands trying to eliminate players, you will have dropped down to your opponents level.
One other point, A-K-Q plays better if YOU are the one to raise rather than making a call (especially since you had the blinds behind you yet to act).
But all-in-all, your play wasn't as bad as your "buddies" made it sound.
Earl,
Thanks for the reply. Your point about raising with this hand is very good advice and fortunately for me the blinds folded.
"A-K-Qo is only a marginal hand in stud."
What are good starting 7CS hands? If I had AKQs - would it be a better call? I know how important starting hands and position play in Hold Em and I assumed it would be similar for 7CS. I just don't know how to value a 7CS starting hand? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Lonnie
Lonnie,
That's quite a big question to answer in one post :-). I recommend 7 Card Stud for Advanced Players. In brief, when it comes to the crunch in big-bet Stud tournaments, live pairs are a lot better than 3 high cards or a draw. For example, a pair of 2s beats AKQ 60-40, not 52-48 or whatever it is for 22 vs AK in Hold-Em. Keep a close eye on the other upcards. If no one has raised in front of you and you have a live pair with no more than one unduplicated higher upcard in play, pump it. If someone in front raises with a higher upcard, fold unless you're very confident he could have less than he is representing. If someone in front raises with a lower upcard, it's down to your knowledge of the player. Like in all big-bet play though you need a _much_ stronger hand to call a raise than you do to raise yourself.
I could expand at length but 7CSFAP does so and is very good. Read and Play and Think. Repeat as necessary.
Good luck,
Andy.
Andy,
Thanks for the reply. I have the HEFAP book, and many other HE books and have found them very useful. Thanks for the advice. I usually prefer to play Hold Em, especially since it is hard to find a live stud game in the cardrooms where I play. I find it hard to believe that AKQ is that much of a dog to a pair of 2's. I guess I have a lot of learning to do.
Thanks again,
Lonnie
Lonnie,
Now I'm home I've checked it and it's actually about 55-45 in favour of the 2s, depending on kickers and 2-flushes and stuff. A pair of 7s is 60-40 against AKQ though.
Andy.
A-K-Q suited is a significantly better hand. In fact, it's favored nearly 2-1 over A-K-Q unsuited. When the hand is NOT suited, it's a dog to any pair (about 3:2); when it's suited, it's a slight favorite over any pair (53:47).
While I too can recommend 7SFAP, I think the question you want answered is why A-K-Qo isn't much in stud when A-Ko is so big in hold-em. The answer lies in the common-card aspect of hold-em. In stud, each person has an opportunity to independently improve their hand. If you flop top pair when holding A-K in hold-em, you're quite often a pretty happy camper all the way to river. If you make top pair in stud, but don't improve, you're on pins and needles waiting for someone to inevitably show you a better hand at the river. Aces *do* stand up without improvement in stud -- but nowhere near as often as they will in hold-em.
It takes a bigger hand on average to win a stud hand than it does a hold-em hand. A hand such as A-A over 8-8 in hold-em is a 4-1 favorite before the flop, but A-A-x versus 8-8-x at 3rd street in stud is no more than a 2-1 favorite. Stud can be such a freakish game, because you may start with A-A, but your opponent with J-J can catch "your" last two Aces, and you're practically dead. Obviously in hold-em such a cornball scenario can never occur, but similar situations happen more often that you'd like in stud.
Before Ray Zee chases one of his bears out of the woods toward me, I should be quick to point out that A-K-Q suited is NOT favored over ANY pair. Clearly, a pair of Aces, Kings, or Queens are still favored over A-K-Q suited (44:56, for K-K or Q-Q, but about 1:2 for A-A). Ironically, it's still easily close enough to take on Kings or Queens, since you have deadened their hand, but you should not chase the Aces headsup.
Earl,
Thanks for the response - your explanation was very good and it made me realize that I have a lot to learn in 7CS.
Lonnie
AKQ plays pretty well heads-up, especially since he's all-in on third street so you won't need to pay any more to try and catch a pair with your big cards. You might have considered raising to make sure that the blinds didn't call, however, as you really don't want to take on 2 or 3 opponents with this hand. This is especially true since getting them to fold gives you T1200 in dead blinds. In this case, after the blinds fold you're risking T1500 to win T2700 with AKQ, definitely a good gamble.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
very strange structure. The only thing wrong here was that you did'nt reraise to knock out the blinds. Since they folded it worked out anyway. Even if this guy has jacks you are not a underdog with 3 overcards that were live. Plus he was all-in and you were the chip leader. Thats how you play tournies by attacking small stacks and staying away from big stacks until the time is right.
I have been toying with the idea of producing a chart for tournament play where you break down your results not from a money won or lost perspective, but from the number of hurtles you successfully jumped. The first hurtle would be the percentage of the time you got to a point where the tournament "juice" was fully amortized. The second hurtle would be the point where 50% of the field had been eliminated and you had, at minimum, a median stacksize. The third hurtle would be the point where 75% were eliminated and you had average or above chips. The fourth hurtle would be when you make it to the money. The fifth hurtle would be the final table, regardless of stacksize, and the final hurtle would be where you ended up in the tournament, position and payout.
Obviously, if you make it to hurtle #1 100% of the time, you know that your playing ability justifies continued entry. I believe that anyone who makes it through hurtle #2 > 75% of the time has a definite +EV. If you can progress through each of the next hurtles, getting knocked out < 50% of the time at each one, your tournament future is definitely biased towards success.
Graphing this out should reveal a wealth of information as to where your various tournament weaknesses lie, and allow you to concentrate on correcting these areas as soon as they become apparent. I would appreciate any comments and suggestions before I undertake the task itself.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Steve,
I was thinking that you had to reach certain points *and* have average chips in order to qualify. Any bozo can reach the halfway mark if he isn't trying to acquire and maintain an average chip position. If I get to the halfway point with fewer than average chips, I can still pick up that qualifier at any later point in the tourney. Example: Halfway there and average chips are T1000, but I have T650. At any later point, if my chip count gets to T1000, I give myself credit for having cleared the 2nd hurdle. It is somewhat loosely patterned after the concept of plotting a course in sailing, you need to have travelled the distance,(half the field eliminated) plus maintained the correct heading. (Have average chips) It is possible to travel the distance and, later, correct for being off course.
John Inashima is very good at travelling long distances while constantly being off course. He plays those short stacks very well, certainly much better than average.
I'm thinking that both surviving, and surviving with adequate chips are important. Of course, surviving is paramount. Having a decent stacksize certainly aids in the survival function.
It is just something that I've been thinking about doing to help me analyze a recurring stumbling block I've encountered in my own tournament results. I've made it to the money in 60% of the tournaments I've entered in the past 3 months and cleared less than $2,000 in the process. I need to rethink my strategy when I have comfortable chips at different points near the end. Usually, when I start out bouncing data around, I find something that gives me some important clue about what avenues to explore.
John,
Like Mr. Inashima, I write down my chip totals at the beginning and end of each level. What I do with this data is to keep track of the number of "bets" that I win or lose at each level. I then enter this information into a spreadsheet, along with the time spent at each level. I can then get a total of the number of bets won/lost, total bets/hour, and the same totals for each level. This way you tell if you're playing winning poker (for the most part), and need not rely solely upon money figures to estimate if you're a good tournament player or not.
Of course, if you're winning bets, but always going bust at the 60-80% level, then maybe you have some problems with playing a short stack (since almost everyone is short-stacked at that point).
Anyway, it may give you some useful information. Although, the fact that I tend to win LOTS of chips during the first level, lose chips during the second level, and win again at all later levels continues to have no meaning to me.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
FossilMan,
I mostly play NL Hold-em tournaments. Stack size usually isn't a problem for me unless my cards dry up towards the end and blind and ante stealing opportunities are curtailed by being poorly positioned relative to a loose/aggressive player with a big stack.
I have been purposely pushing the envelope at strategic points in the later stages of tournaments in an attempt to acquire 15-20% of the total outstanding chips. I have been more than willing to trade higher money finishes for the chance to start at the final table as a dominant force. I have been primarily aiming for clear shots at one of the top three spots.
To a surprising degree, I've found that the risk/reward ratios might not be favorable for this game plan. I'm toying with the idea that just getting to the final table, regardless of stack size, might be more profitable than arriving there less frequently but with a bigger stack. I've yet to arrive at a final table where I didn't need to risk an all in, or potentially crippling play, at some point, in order to progress to one of the top spots. I need larger samples of data, but I'm starting to think that different tradeoffs, made at earlier points in the tournament, might yield more favorable financial results.
This graphing idea is simply to allow me to see a visual representation of my typical tournament progression. Thanks for your contribution, I value your knowledgeable imput.
Very interesting idea! I have noticed that in the tournaments I usually play that the chip leader at the final table certainly does not have a lock on top positions. It seems to me to be most important just to be there as I have come in first twice when I had the smallest stack going in to the final table. Have always had to go all-in at some point or another at the final table. These tournaments have only 20-30 players. Dave
Dave I play better or think I play better if I am mid level chip holder - I don't protect a chip lead like I think I should I need work here and don't know if john's chart will help me.
Rounder I am heading in to a tourney tonight where I lost bad (stupidly) last week; I need to get my head and confidence straightened out as I beat some of these guys two weeks ago at a different tourney but just seemed to make a bonehead play and did not even get to final table last week. Somehow I could not get in the zone and was watching everyone else play instead of waiting for my cards. So far I am 3 wins, 1 third, at other casinoes and 2 early outs at this place I am heading tonight. I play cash games there against 10-20 players who are playing 5-10 while waiting for a game and can hold my own. I find these guys really rebuy often and gamble hard at the beginning trying to get a big stack before the break; whereas I might rebuy once, trying not to have to until add-on when the chips double. Any advice well recieved. Dave
I play in one just like it on Wed and thurs night. 80+ guys and 200 rebuys - I rarely rebuy unless I am below $3k at the break. last week some wanker rebought 11 or 12 times. That's $600 wow - I Knocked him out the 1st hand after the rebuy period was over.
These rebuy guys are looking for the big pot and don't mind spending loads of cash to get some chips. I love it. I want to isolate them and take them down one at a time. It is easy cuz they raise alot and knock others out of the way for you. Just make sure to play the quality cards in the right position.
I play tight early for this reason and loosen up later when everyone is a bit tighter. The game changes to my benefit after the rebuy period. Only thing that can stop me now is to run out of cards.
I wish you success.
OK Rounder. Will do the following; tight at the start when everyone is wild, but I am trying to pick up a good pot with the best cards. Maybe buy in before the break if I am below the minimum but of course always add-on. It seems that about 1/2 hour after break the big guys try to kill each other and I can just rope-a-dope it until the smoke clears. Things seem to go well for me if I can make it to the last 5 or 6; the others seem to self-destruct a lot. I usually have to bluff a couple of times and go all-in at least once. Hope to report back that I did something smart this time. Thanks. Dave
I can never remember winning or doing really well without buying a pot or two also the old addage about winning with AK and beating AK is really true.
Happy hunting.
John - might be a good training aid but why wise up the "dead money" there are always the usual suspects in tournaments who have no chance in hell of getting the money so why tell them the bad news - I'd rather console them by agreeing they are just "unlucky".
You know those losers who raise with a KJo in mid position. They have no chance against us pros HUH :-)
In my last tournament, coincidentally enough, there were 13 of us left from a starting field of 127. 18 places paid, so I'm in the money and had only T1900 after losing a big pot with 99, when the all-in guy spiked a 10 to go with his A-10o. Blinds had just gone to 300-600 and antes were 75, so I was in relatively bad shape. I move all-in UTG with KJo and get called by guy on my left who has AQ. Everyone else folds, so with the T1425 of dead money I feel OK about taking this gamble since I'm about a 1.7:1 dog to his hand (AcQh vs.KsJc). In this case, the better starting hand held up and I was eliminated.
The reason why I felt it necessary to take this last gamble with the KJo, was that I had called an all in bet by the A-10o at a time when I could have thrown my 99's away because I was already in a comfortable chip position. I have a tendency to overvalue chip acquisition at times when my current stacksize doesn't warrant taking such risks. I feel like that earlier play cost me more than acquiring those extra chips might have benefitted me.
Will be flying to Vegas in the New Year to play a couple of the Pot and No-Limit events in the Carnivale of Poker at the Harraz, can anyone give me the full schedule so I don't arrive too early or too late.
I know it starts early Jan and goes on for about 2 weeks but I won't be entering all the tournements so really need a full schedule.
Thanks.
Gary
Jan 9 satellites begin - Jan 27 Championship $5k buyin.
Looks like there are Limit PL and NL HE tournaments everyday with the obligatory 7cs and Omaha sprinkled in.
I'll be there - some time depending on the Southern Cal and Arizona tourneys at the same time.
You can call 888-475-6661 for more info.
Rounder,
I'll be there from 6 thru 18 Jan. Look for a rotund bald italian with a gotee wearing a Bulls cap.
Vince.
Vinny except for the gotee, bulls hat thing we could be bros. I'll look for you, lets have a drink.
When are the PL Omaha tournements? Which dates?
Thanks for the replies by the way.
Gary.
PL Omaha events
$500+40 Jan. 11
$1000+60 Jan 19,
Good morning all! Sunday, I also played in my first NL 7CS tournament with my twin brother. As he stated in an ealier post the specifics were - $30 buyin ($1000T), $5 entry fee, 2 $30 rebuys ($1000T) until a break at the end of the first hour. At the break if you still had rebuys left you could get $2500T for both rebuys or $1500T for 1 rebuy. They actually ran it like a Hold 'Em tournament with blinds - new to me for stud - but like I said I am very inexperienced in this game. On 3rd street everyone acted in turn starting with the UTG player and ending with the large blind. On all other streets, the person with the highest hand showing was first to act.
Blinds start out at $25-50, and double every 20 minutes. Top four get paid at 50%, 25%, 15%, 10% and total prize money of $1800.
The final table had just got down to 3 players. There was a dead small blind, the big blind had 18000T, I had 3500T, and the button had 42,000T. The hands looked like this: BB xx2C, (4H6C)6D, xx7C.
Being short-stacked and the first to act, what do you with a small pair in this situation?
You don't say how big the blinds are at this point. But I assume pretty big. Any live pair is good when you are short-stacked (only have chips for 1 - 2 full rounds) and no one has yet taken aggressive action. Any live pair is good three-handed. You've got both - put the rest of your chips into the middle as quickly as possible.
How did it turn out ?
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
Thanks for the reply Andy. The blinds were $500T-$1000T.
After reviewing the hand, I agree with you that I should have raised all in on 3rd street. Instead I just raised it to $2000T. The button called and the big blind folded. On fourth street the button caught a Jack and I caught a 9. He checked and I bet all in. He called. I turned over my pair of 6's and he showed a K-3 off. Current hands me - 6469, button - K37J. My hand didn't improve and he caught a second 7 on 7th street to beat me.
The specifics are the same as in my earlier post. We had just recently gotten down to the final table. I had to post the $800T big blind. Everyone folds to the small blind ($400T) who just calls. The small blind has approximately 3 times the chip amount that I do.
The hands were: SB - (xx)Jc me - (2c8h)4s. I check. Sidenote: I thought the SB just calling was a bad move. With his stack size and overcard, I would have raised instead of calling in his position. Anyway 4th street brought the following: SB - (xx)JcAd me - (2c8h)4s4d. Since I have the highest hand showing I have to act first. I checked and the SB checked. On fifth street I catch a 5 and he catches a 3. I bet $1000T and he folds. My question is, should I have bet on 4th street with my pair showing?
Probably. It depends what you do when you have made trips. If you're short stacked I would be more likely to bet it. What you did was not wrong, it is possible that your check made him think you were slow-playing something. But you did give him a free card. In general, if you think you have the best hand and there is a good chance your opponent will fold it's right to bet. If you're so short-stacked that your opponent will not fold (because he's getting 5-1 pot odds or better) you can try to check-call and a weak opponent will let you escape sometimes so you can have one more shot.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
It's time to change! The WSOP final should be the game(s) that are most played throughout the World. I contend that there are more Limit poker games spread that any other kind of Poker. In fact NL is probably the least spread of all poker games. So why is it used to determine "Poker's World Champion". Besides we all know that limit is tougher than No Limit.
Vince.
Vince,
Think harder. Think about _why_ NL is the least spread game and you might come close to why it is the choice for the WSOP and other big finals.
Andy.
"Think about _why_ NL is the least spread game "
Well, let's see. Is it because NL requires more skill? No, not IMO. Is it beacsue the average poker player doesn't want to spend the his/her time becoming an expert. Yes, IMO. The average poker player is a gambler. Make no mistake about that. Gambling Poker players soon go broke at NL. Why? Because experts at NL crush them. Gambling poker players go broke at limit honldem but much more slowly. the luck factor is much greater at limit. More skills are required to extract the denaro from the "gambling public". That in a nut shell is the reason. Now from your patronizing, thumb nose statement above I know that you feel differently. Maybe you need to "Think harder".
Vince.
X
"It's time to change!"
The WSOP championship format has proved successful over time. Why change it? There are many other major events of limit holdem and stud.
"The WSOP final should be the game(s) that are most played throughout the World."
Then it might eventually be Omaha-8. And 20 years ago it might have been lowball. Keeping it constant brings continuity to the event. And games that are common in one part of the world might be unknown in others. Having one championship game allows players in any location to focus on that game.
"I contend that there are more Limit poker games spread that any other kind of Poker."
True, but there is a strong argument that no-limit is better for tournaments. The higher advantage of the better players in NL partially balances out the crapshoot factor of the rapidly increasing blinds. Gamb00lers like the way they can build a huge stack quickly if they catch a rush. And local rocks like the way that they can last fairly late in the tournament despite overly tight play. There are reasons why cardrooms avoid spreading big-bet ring games, but the problems with NL don't apply in the case of a fixed buy-in tournament.
"In fact NL is probably the least spread of all poker games. So why is it used to determine "Poker's World Champion"."
Not sure about the following, but I think that the tournament was started by Texan players and that no-limit holdem was their game of choice. It could easily have been stud or draw or whatever. No-limit holdem has a very high skill:luck ratio, and that makes it ideal for championship play.
"Besides we all know that limit is tougher than No Limit."
Tougher in what sense? It can be argued that limit holdem is strategically more complex than no-limit. But there's no argument about where the expert's advantage is greater. And as far as television, advertising, the image of the tournament, etc. - no-limit play is more exciting for viewers and sponsors.
.....................> No-Limit Draw Poker
Just like in most old time movies. It's a Man's game!!
Limit Hold'em's for girls.
And remember, its TRUE no-limit, not TABLE STAKES no-limit. So if you have a really big hand, you can go around town and take up a collection (or even visit the bank) to make or call a larger bet. Talk about a large stack!
Or sell your horse, and then keel over during the final hand so that your wife has to play it.
Hooray for Hollywood ... :-)
Andy.
I love that movie! "Big hand for a little lady", I think.
I happen to prefer 7cs in ring games ,because I know how to play the game and win more then I lose.My exposure to nolimit holdem has been in weekly tournaments at local club in ny wow I realy think nolimit is the ultimate test of poker skill,
If you had the choice of playing two tournaments. Which one would you perfer and why?
$500 No-Limit Hold'em with 400 entries or $1000 NL HE with 200 entries. Obviously the prize pools are the same.
I think it depends on your bankroll. Or maybe even your personal preference. If you're playing against the same level of opponents in each case, your EV would appear to be the same but I should think the smaller tournament with more players would have a bigger variance.
Can I pose a slightly different question which might help : Would you prefer to play in _two_ $500 NLH with 400 entries each or _one_ $1000 NLH with 200 entries ? Personally I would probably go for 2 x 500.
Andy.
I believe that I agree with Andy. My problem is that I have nothing to base my decision on.
Vince.
I like the $500 choice - the dead money is still there and it will take about as long to get down to the real players maybe 2 more rounds. I like the overlay better on the $500 that's assuming you are a winning player and will make the break with a good chance of getting to the final table.
I would choose the $1,000 buy in. Once the tournament starts, you have basically eliminated 50 percent of the $500 buy-in field and none of those 200 players (although some are indeed dead money) had the chance to suck out on you or put you out of the tournament.
I like beating 200 people more than I do 400 any day.
Gambler
I would guess that the level of play is higher in the 1000 tournament.
Play the 500.
The $1,000 buy-in is not tougher because the players are the same as in the $500 buy in with 200 less people to beat.
How can it possibly be easier to beat 400 people than 200??? Especially if the toughest 200 players are in both events, which at all major tournaments they are.
Gambler
No one said it's easier to beat 400 players. The question, in my mind, is which tournament is likley to be the most profitable?
If the toughest 200 are in the 200-player event, then the 400-player event (which has the same toughest 200 plus 200 others) must be a softer field. You still have to beat the toughest 200, but you also have a shot at winning some chips from weak players to use against the tough players.
I'll take the larger field in most cases, as the extra players are often weak players.
BTW, Badger is probably the best guy on this forum to answer this question.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
..you had the option of paying an add'l $1000 to eliminate 100 players from a $1000/200 person, yet keep their money in the pool?
Badger wrote "I hadn't read this thread but must have been drunk and opened Greg's post"
The next time I run into Badger at a tournament, I'm not sure if I should be thanking him, or smacking him. I mean, did he mean that even when he's drunk and not interested in a thread, he reads my posts? Or did he mean that only when he's so drunk that he doesn't know what he's doing that he reads my posts?
What do you think?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
i think he meant that he was too drunk to realize that the thread was boring, saw your name, and opened the post. i think that's a compliment.
scott
It depends on how you gauge your ability against the field, whether or not your in the top 5% or not. If you do, you'd rather play in the $1000 event because the skill factor is much higher because of the usual structure for the two tournaments. Normally, the $500 buyin tourneys you start with only 500 in chips with 5-15 blinds, where in the 1000 buyin you get 1000 in chips and they start at either 10-15, or 15-30 blinds. Also, in a lot of the tourneys you get hour long rounds for the $1000 events and approximately 45 min rounds for the 500. If you feel like you need to get extremely lucky to beat the field, the 500's are for you, if you feel like a favourite the 1000's involve less luck, more skill. Daniel Negreanu
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Assuming equally skilled fields, any winning player should prefer the $1000 buy-in tournament. It is twice as big a game and should result in almost twice the profit, regardless of how many entrees there are.
"Assuming equally skilled fields,"
Isn't that the point of the question? It seems obvious that if you have 400 people willing to put up 500 and only 200 people willing to put up 1000, then the 1000 tournament field will be significantly stronger. My limited tournament experience is in line with this.
I played 2 500 buy-ins at the USPC and 1 1000.
The 1000 field was stronger, IMO.
Danny
Dan, the 200 players that you think make the $1,000 buy in "significantly tougher," are also in the $500 field PLUS 200 other players (in going by the original question to this thread). So the $500 buy-in would still be tougher to beat.
Remember, it's not 200 very good players in the $1,000 buy in and 400 lames in the $500 buy in. It's probably 200 very good players in $1,000 and 200 of the same very good players, plus probably a 100 or so more good players at least, in the $500 buy in.
Gambler
Would like some comments and advice about a tourney that I almost made money in last night. Fourty five players at 5 tables, pay the last 8. I got short of chips late in the game when there were 9 at my table. Thought there was still 1 table besides us but it turns out they were just playing a ring game and had been knocked out. I was UTG with KcQc and thought it would be good to get the blinds. Player in 5 raised and one in 6 called the preflop. I called. Flop was A,6,3 uh,oh. I decided to stay as had only enough chips for this one play. Maybe should have gone all-in on my blinds next hand and dumped without calling raise or been first to raise. Rag, K on turn and river, am all-in on turn. My KK did not do too good as raiser had 66 for trips and player 6 had A,2 or something like that. Bonus was that when I stood up to leave I found out there were only the 9 of us and that everyone else was now in the money. Free entertainment as I kicked my own butt around the casino a couple of times. Think I should have sat out one more round? or just opened my bloody eyes? dave
Obviously, one should know how many tables/players are left in a tournament. Enough said.
As far as your play of the hand, I think it left a little to be desired. I would have raised pre-flop. If either of these players call you, you are done on the flop. I would not have gone any further and taken my chances on the next hand in the big blind.
So there where 2 callers before you had to committ to the pot? Then the blinds acted?
If this is so I may have dumped the KQ there are likley to be 5 in the pot with you there. The only other plan is to go all in here preflop.
Your call post flop is all wrong.
Should have folded.
Aren't tourneys fun!? I've been in about 12 no-limits now and each time I can think back to one or two VERY KEY plays that were big mistakes. I'm encouraged though because I've placed in the money in 4 of the 12 so far even with the mistakes.
It sounds to me like your KQs was the hand to go all with on such a short stack. What would the next had be? Much worse in all probability.
As a matter of fact, that is the same hand I made a moderate mistake with in my last tourney. I called a raise before the flop with three of us in. I made my flush on the flop! I checked and called and then on the turn I checked and raised. But the third player who was short stacked and could not cover my raise folded! The original raiser called my raise and called again when I bet on the river.
The point is I missed out getting the chips from the nearly all in player and also missed a chance to put him out. If I had noticed he was short stacked I would not have check raised on the turn but would have saved my raise for the river. With such a strong raise and ugly flop he knew he was beat.
i suspect you would be better off not playing in tournaments. you dont seem to pay attention to whats going on around you and may not understand how to play short money or allin. since its hard to understand what exactly you did my thoughts are --why didnt you raise going in-- did you consider betting out on the flop since you were going to go all in anyway, why not give your self a chance to win it if one of the two others doesnt have an ace.
You have to be in them mentally all the time. I have said my A+ game is very good and my A game sucks that is because if I am not in the game I make mental errors like you did.
What I do is at the break about 40 to 60% of the starting palyers are out (unless it is a rebuy tourney) I count the stacks of those remaining usually 40 to 50 assuming 100 buy in. I click off one each tome I hear "player out" so I always know how many left. I also get a read on stack sizes when we are down to two tables I want to know how many players are in trouble and who is holding the bigger stacks.
Do this and you'll be in the game more and make less strategic mistakes like you did here.
Thanks for the advice everybody. I know at the time I was thinking maybe I should raise preflop since I was in early position and the blinds were so big relative to my stack that this limit tourney was playing like a no-limit, at least for me. I should have choked out of the hand and left a few chips for my upcoming big blind, next hand. Every other tourney I have played has had only about 25-30 players and I seemed to keep track of the live ones. In fact, I used to pride myself on being smart about knowing what was going on. Sure will never make this mistake again. All I had to do was go for a drink of water to see that the table behind me was a cash game. In small tourneys I am always in the money or often win them, although I have only been in this game a few months. Next time I would raise pre-flop, drop with a lot of others in the pot. Have ordered the tournament book by 2 plus 2 a couple weeks ago. I will be definately be taking their money before much more time goes by. One of the guys playing here travels around to other cities a lot for touneys and he went out 2 before me. Thanks again.
Hi everyone,
This is just a little note of an experience of mine. If not interested just go to another post with RSP.
I played in the FW Sunday Morning 7 stud $20 Tournament yesterday. Er that would be 26 Dec. 1999 for you purists.
80 entrants. I finished second. $483. O.K that's the technical stuff. Now for my story.
My youngest Son is visiting from Japan for the holidays. My oldest son came in from Wisconsin and we all spent a great Christmas eve and Day together. On Sunday my nephew joined us and we all went to FW to .. Play Poker of course. The night before , that would be 25 Dec. 1999 for Sklansky, the four of us put $5 each in a pot and played a freezeout tournament. I wanted to familiarize my nephew and youngest son with the rules and play of a tournament. My oldest son won the home tourney. Like I said this was a personal experience and may not interest anyone so think again before continuing.
We all got up early and drove to FW and all four of us entered the 7 stud tournament. The tourney has one optional rebuy. The initial buy in of, 15 plus 5 entry fee, buys T1000. The rebuy of $10 buys another T1000. I stressed to my young family members to play very tight during the rebuy period, looking only for very favorable situations. We all made it through the the rebuy period and the break. Thanks Rounder!
After 2 more levels of play my nephew walks over to me looking somewhat depresses and indicates that he had been the first tournament casualty of my family. He lost a hge pot with Kings full to four (that's 4 David) Queens! "Wow" I said, "You certainly suffered a bad beat". Then off he went to play $5-10 Stud live. Bad beats don't keep us down for long. It took me a few minutes to get over his beat before I settled down.
2 Levels later my youngest boy with the same look on his face walks over and exclaims "I just got knocked out with sevens(7's Dave) full of Kings to nine's (9's Sklansky, I wish numbers weren't your'e only method of communication) full. Before I could admonish him for starting a hand with sevens (7's) he explained that he had started with split K's and made 3 sevens. He then went of and played 1-5 stud.
When we got down to 2 tables my oldest boy was sent to my table. A few hand later he made a K high flush on sixth (6th) street. Bet all in and was called by a single opponent, Big pot. An in the money size pot. The opponent made a K,Q high flush, My son had K,J! He just smiled wished everyone good luck and went off to play $5-10 stud.
I now was sure that the Poker Gods were after me and my family. I became very cautios not to p... them off. I felt very good about reaching the final table. Once there I remembered the advice Badger, Z, Fossil, BJ (that's Big John, Ray) and others here on 2+2 had given me. I focused on winning! I swore I would not make a deal (I admire Daniel Negreanu's resolve). One opponent said that if we chopped we would all get ~ $300. I was 3rd with chips and it still didn't sound to bad, considering 1st was 680, 2nd 483, and 3rd, 293. Someone else beat me to it and said no and we played.
Somehow I got down to headsup. My opponent was the chip leader. Maybe 3 to 2. I looked at the prize money and thought that I really didn't see much difference between 1st and second. I then made the fatal mistake! I said why don't we just split firat and second money. I figured we could be playing for a long time dor not much money. My opponent looked at his stack and offered me $17 to take second. I was insulted and told him so! Let's play I said!
It didn't matter I knew I was doomed. I had gone against my instincts and gor whatebver reason was now doomed to failure. On the very next hand I got split 5's with a suited A. He had a Ts. I brought it in and he raised. I put him on "air" and reraised. He called! My heart sunk. I had less than one big bet left. on 4th street we both got blanks. He checked and I (fatally) checked. He got the As on 5th and I got a blank. He bet. I thought for a long time and then believing I was still ahead called all in. The Ace of spades gave him a spade draw and gut Broadway straight. I made Aces up on the river. He looked at his cards and for a second he had that "I don't have anything" look. He was looking for a flush but low and behohd he found the straight! I smiled, congradulated him and went to eat dinner. I was not happy. I wanted to win! Sorry Badger, et al!
Vince.
Sorry about your family's misfortune, Vince! And during the holiday season and all...
I live in Tokyo though and if your son is here, I'd love to include him in my (very soft) home game.
E-mail me directly if Vince Jr. wants to play in Japan. Of course, if you ever visit him, you would not be welcome :). Too good and way too irritable.
Happy holidays/Chuck
"way too irritable."
I see you have already been talking to my son. Or maybe my EX.
Vince.
"I said why don't we just split firat and second money. I figured we could be playing for a long time dor not much money. My opponent looked at his stack and offered me $17 to take second. I was insulted and told him so! Let's play I said!"
From what I've read on this forum about trnmt play. Players many of them on this forum have an exact number of what they expect to get offered for a split and if it isn't offered it doesn't even phase them they just say deal. Vince next time you'll know more and you'll win.
Great to see your family was in town too bad I wasn't down there but I had a few things to do as usual.
Congratulations on runner up!!!
paul
Planning a trip to Vegas soon and I would like some sort of tournament schedule and advice where to stay and play some 10-20 and or pot limit and no limit tournaments. Info on comps etc.
Thanks Dino
Planning a trip to Vegas soon and would like some sort of tournament schedule and advice on where to stay and play some 10-20, pot limit and no limit tournaments also info on comps etc.
Thanks a bunch Dino
Dino, say hello to Frank and the rest of the rat pack.
10-20 - Mirage, sometimes at the Orleans (Holdem), Binions downtown.
Tournament Schedule -www.cardplayer.com NL at O'rleans. Pot limit? Carnivalle of Poker. early Jan.
Comps - Ha, Ha, ha,ha,- Buffet at Mirage, Food at O'rleans. poker Room rate at O'rleans and Bellagio. O'rleans ~ $35. Mason's house ~ $60, Nice bed and breakfast - he'll do anything for a buck (60 that is).
Vince
I plan on playing in a $40 buy-in/no rebuy No Limit Hold 'Em tournament tomorrow night and was wondering if there are any tips that you more seasoned tournament players could pass my way. From what I've gathered from previous posts similar to this one, play tight during the first few levels, be aware of the number of players/tables left, and play somewhat looser as the blinds increase. I'm sure there's alot more, I just can't think of them right now. Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.
Liquid Swords
As Rocky's wife said to him as she was coming out of comma on the hospital bed - WIN - WIN - WIN
Stay out of trouble if you don't flop to it "hard" get out - don't play trouble hands - KT, J9, Ax etc.and for get about playing suited cards unless they have eyes. AK - you have to win with it and you have to beat it to win a NL tournament - AK if you don't flop to it you are out of the hand. Only hands worth going broke with early are AA & KK.
If you make the break loosen up a bit and start stealing blinds - make sure the theft victims will cooperate. A few weeks ago I got to the final table chip leader after 3 1/2 hours I entered 10 pots and won 9 of them. So you have to pick your spots and strike when you have it and lay off when you don't.
I wish you success.
PS: It ain't over until it's over never never give up I don't care if you are down to your last chip - in NL you are not out until you have no more chips.
Rounder's comment about not giving up is very important and applies to all tournaments. I had a good result in a Stud tournament on Sunday after being down to one chip with 15 players still left.
Andy.
Thank you guys for your input. I'm off. Wish me luck.
Liquid Swords
I just found out that the tournament is limit, not no limit. Only the last table will be no limit. Betting starts at $10-$20. I guess the employee that I spoke to was new, so was confused. Anyway, I would still like to play, but am not sure if there is anything that I should do differently. I am leaving in about 30 minutes, so any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Liquid Swords
I'm a new tourney player, too (3 limit HE tourneys) but I can give you encouragement -- in my last one I survived 5 all-ins to win 2nd place & $600. Never give up is right! Just try not to wait till your very last chip to make a stand -- even if you win, the side-pot won't be big enough to help you.
I'm playing at the Grand Casino in Biloxi's pre-Christmas limit Hold-em tournament. $50 buy-in + one $50 rebuy.
88 players started and we're down to 18 at two tables. Limits are $3000-$6000. I'm in ok chip position, 3rd if I remember right, with $27,000. Table has become somewhat tight. My last two pre-flop raises win the blinds outright, as do several other players'. I get the feeling the blind-stealers are raising with any halfway-decent hand.
I'm on the button and dealt AcKc. Guy about 4 positions ahead of me bets, I raise, he re-raises, I call. We're the only two in the pot.
Flop comes 6-8-9 rainbow. He bets, I raise, he re-raises, I call. I'm worried now as I put him on a pair, perhaps QQ, and he does not respect my raises.
Turn is a J and he bets. I think and think. My $27,000 has become $9000, and I know he has something, just not sure what. Surely he didn't stay in with Q-10, hitting a straight. I considered he, too, might have AK. Reluctantly, I fold. I last a few more hands before finishing 14th (no money - might as well have finished 88th).
I know I screwed up, but not sure where. I folded because I feel I needed an A or a K on the river, with only a 6/46 chance of hitting. I thought I could save my last $9000 for good cards, but they never came. This has bugged me since it happened. Any and all help would be appreciated.
Mark
You can rest easier. The precise moment you should've folded was after the flop. When the blinds are large, you should be playing a strategy similar to no-limit: if you don't flop to it, get rid of it. Additionally, because of the stage of the tournament you are at, I would not have given a lot of action before the flop -- doing so makes the decision to dump A-K more difficult.
Here is where the tournament gets real sticky - a few hands here and you are in the money with a chance for a good pay day.
Depending on the guy ahead of you I may have just called the bet here - if he is tight I definately just call here. When he check raised you preflop I get worried and would fold - now this is not a ring game where you can buy more chips you have to protect your chips in this situation. Your play preflop was marginal at best.
When you don't flop to your AK the hand is over for you your raise on the flop was a serious mistake. After all that took place preflop I had to put him on AA maybe KK unless he was a complete idiot.
AK can't beat 22 now it had potential but you were most probably drawing dead.
Oops, I goofed.
Pre-flop, he raised and I re-raised. He just called.
But I think the points are well-taken. Thanks.
Mark
I just finished one out of the money at a new 1/2 omaha, 1/2 HE tournament. It was $40/$40 with 300 to start and a single 500 chip rebuy. Anyone else have any experience at this type of tournament and how best to deal with the differences in the games. I haven't found much literature dealing with this.
The hand that put me out was at the third table. It was omaha (I'm much weaker in omaha). 7-handed 200-400, I have ~3700 and am tied for table lead with the guy I show down with; I start off with A-3d,5-Tc. I'm one after the blind & call. Flop comes 2d4d9c. I bet out, the guy I show down with calls, dealer raises, blinds fold I reraise, everyone calls. Turn is a Q-c. I bet, other guys call (dealer is all in). River is a 9d; I have the top flush but no low. I check (prepared to check raise). The guy I show down with slams his chips down and bets (he's an extremely emotional guy, a gambler; I see him almost cry at a later table). I'm getting around 10-1. I call while he turns over 9-2. Should I have paid him off?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I have almost no experience at short-handed omaha, but I did loosen up my starting hand requirements. Maybe too much; for my own edification, why would I not play A3d5Tc at a short-handed weak tournament table. If I were on the button I would play it.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
"I'm just gonna assert (no proof to show Vince) but either Omaha or Stud value skill much more at the end of the tournament as opposed to holdem, where luck rules in the pocket pair vs. two overcards confrontations."
By extension, are you suggesting that *no-limit* holdem tournaments also have a lower skill factor than stud or Omaha when the blinds are very high?
(Although no-limit has the highest skill factor when the money is deep.)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
you would call if only you believe he would bet a worse hand than you have about 10% of the time or more. in a tournament you want to pay off less as your chips have more value.
Hamster -
I start off with A-3d,5-Tc. I'm one after the blind & call.
I think you should raise here (pre-flop).
Flop comes 2d4d9c. I bet out, the guy I show down with calls, dealer raises, blinds fold I reraise, everyone calls.
At this point (after the flop) are there three players, you, eventual winner, and dealer? Seems like the dealer is making a stand on this hand, Dealer probably also has A-3 plus a couple of other good cards, probably low cards, maybe A-2-3-4, maybe A-3-4-4, maybe A-2-3-5, something like that. (Im wondering why dealer didnt raise pre-flop). Also at this point (after the flop) you might put the eventual winner on the two top pairs, top and bottom pairs, or possibly a set.
Therefore you are probably quartered for the nuts low, but maybe not, and you still have a good draw for the nuts high. You were probably thinking, Wouldnt the five of diamonds be sweet. Who could resist betting out after the flop. Any one of 21 cards give you at least a tie for the nuts low. Any high diamond (except the nine) gives you the nuts flush. Add four more good cards. Youre better than four to one to win a share of the pot, albeit only a quarter of it, and you have a shot at scooping.
Turn is a Q-c. I bet, other guys call (dealer is all in).
Not so good, but not so bad either. The ten-five of clubs is not good for the front door, but not so bad for a back door flush. You still have any one of 21 cards that will give you at least a tie for the nuts low, plus three high diamonds (the king, jack and ten) for the nut flush, plus two high clubs (the king and jack) for a probable winning backdoor flush. 26 cards help you while 18 cards dont.
River is a 9d; I have the top flush but no low. I check (prepared to check raise).
Oh oh. Theres no check raise here. This is, at best, a tail between your legs call. With a card on the board pairing one of the origianl cards of the flop, especially with this betting scenario, youre likely looking at a full house.
The guy I show down with slams his chips down and bets (he's an extremely emotional guy, a gambler; I see him almost cry at a later table). I'm getting around 10-1.
Sorry, but youre wrong. Youre not getting around 10-1. Youre the underdog here.
I call while he turns over 9-2.
I can't resist asking. What happened to your (prepared to check raise)?
"Should I have paid him off?
I dont know. This is where I have trouble in tournaments. I tend to call in situations like this where I think Im probably beaten, but have enough invested that I would want to kick myself if I didnt call and then saw the guy lay down an inferior hand. On the other hand, you still have about 2500TC left.
Would the eventual winner have stayed to see the flop if you had raised pre-flop? You didnt tell us what his other cards were. With A-2-3-9, maybe he would have stayed regardless of what you did. However, with anything else, perhaps he would not have cold-called a two bet pre-flop at that point in the tournament.
I think your biggest mistake was not raising pre-flop.
Buzz
Doof. Long night and I hadn't played in an omaha tournament in 6 months. I have to read the other half of Zee's book again.
The main crux of my question is should a decision to pay him off be affected by the relative chip count. If the pot odds were ~10-1 say, and you were in the middle stages of a tournament and were going to showdown with what you think may be a beaten hand, how would the relative chip count affect the true odds you need to call (ignoring the fact that the guy is a maniac).
I didn't raise pre-flop because the emotional guy to my right was a total maniac, along with a loose-aggressive table. The previous three pots had been raised with >=2 callers. With pre-flop raises being discounted by everyone (including mine), I adjusted, or better yet, overcorrected to a sickening degree. It was a blunder, and I now understand how I got sucked in. However, a raise would have done nothing but lose me another 200 chips, correct though it may be. The check raise comment was also dependent on this view of the opponent. Guess I shouldn't have introduced a hand with so much extraneous crap to ask the above question.
BTW, All in dealer mucked his cards on the river and only had a low/straight draw.
Hamster - After the eventual winner bets on the river there are about forty three 100TCs in the pot and it will cost you another four 100TCs to see the river bet, about 10 to 1. O.K. I think I get it now. You mean the pot odds were 10 to 1. That should have been clearer to me in your original post.
You have the nuts diamond flush, but a boat is likely. Is it worth another 4 100TCs from you?
Youre probably a loser on the hand, but you may be a winner. The player who bets on the river may have been on a low draw and missed, may have a king high diamond flush, or both. If one time out of ten you would have a winning hand, then your call is a good bet in a ring game. However, perhaps in the middle-late stage of a tournament you dont want to quite use the same strategy, because that will get you knocked low in nine tournaments for every one where you increase your chip stack.
However, there is yet another consideration that tips the scales in favor of calling the river bet and that is table image. You want to avoid confrontations that are not of your own choosing. You need to have a table image such that your opponents would expect you to call with a reasonable hand because you dont want your opponents running over you in the late stages of a tournament. You dont want your opponents to think there is a chance you might weakly fold on the last bet. Here is a reasonable hand to reinforce your table image, and a hand that might turn out to be a winner for you.
Thus I think your decision to call the river bet was a good decision, even though it lost you another four 100TCs.
You asserted, However, a raise would have done nothing but lose me another 200 chips, correct though it may be. Isnt there a possibility, slight though it might seem, that the eventual winner might have folded to a pre-flop double bet? Shouldn't you (by raising) at least give your opponent a chance to make a mistake?
In multiple rebuy tournaments it simply costs more to play against maniacs. Since they seem to raise at every opportunity, they double the stakes of many hands they play. You need more chips right at the start to deal with the higher variance.
In single-rebuy or non-rebuy tournaments its more difficult to play against maniacs (at least for me). This Thursday Ill be playing in a one rebuy Omaha-high/low tournament that figures to cost $220 with the one rebuy. Your post has been good for me because it has gotten me to thinking about how to play against maniacs in such tournaments.
This Thursday, I think if I have a pre-flop raising hand, Ill raise, regardless of whether there is a maniac or the table is loose-aggressive. In fact, if I have a raising hand and then get re-raised so much the better. Im interested in feed-back here.
Regards to you. Thanks for you post which has gotten me to thinking.
Buzz
Hamster -
"The main crux of my question is should a decision to pay him off be affected by the relative chip count. If the pot odds were ~10-1 say, and you were in the middle stages of a tournament and were going to showdown with what you think may be a beaten hand, how would the relative chip count affect the true odds you need to call (ignoring the fact that the guy is a maniac)."
As I read your post over this morning, it occured to me that I still have not addressed the main crux of your question. By "relative chip count" I assume you mean the size of your stack relative to the sizes of your opponent's stacks.
Yes, I believe one of the considerations involved in a tournament decision whether or not to pay off an opponent, in general, is the relative chip count. However, in the game situation you have described the relative chip count is not a significant issue.
If you were down to your last chips, so that you would be forced to go all in to meet your next blinds or the blinds after that, then your relative chip count would be a more significant issue.
Since you are still fairly strong here, and since calling a four chip bet on the river represents less than a sixth of your chip stack, the relative chip count does not seem to matter as much as other considerations here.
At least that's my opinion.
Buzz
Is hamster sort of a low-limit Badger?
First of all, I am a tournament novice. This tournament paid 8 places, and as a hand is being dealt, the director announces that there are 11 of us left. I have 800 and change, and I'm the shortest stack at my table (6 players). We are at 200/400.
I am dealt Ac4h5h. Bringin is a 2c, and there is 1 high caller to me. I call. A second high hand calls. On 4th street, the 2c gets a 6 offsuit. I get a 7 offsuit. High hand checks, 2-6 bets, I call, with both highs folding. On 5th street the 2-6 catches a 3 and bets. I call all in with some extra change with Ac, 4h, 5h, 7c, 2h. The 2-3-6 turns over a 4-5 and I am gone.
In view of the chance of getting to one of the final 8 places, should I have called on 3rd street? 4th street? If I am calling on 3rd street, should I raise? We had 20 minutes left at 200/400, I could well have made it to the next limit just by doing nothing, but I'm not sure that would have gotten past 3 other players.
A45 is a premium hand in 7hl. I think you need to go with this one. Then, once you catch 2 low cards, I don't see how folding can be the right play. It's just tough luck, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'da called on 3rd, folded on 4th. That offsuit 7 just kills ya when he catches the 6. You can get away cheap here. If your Ace had been suited(and live), I'da raised on 3rd.
OK. Here's a situation that came up the other night. PL Stud tournament, 3-handed. Prizes 1070-600-350. The competitors are as follows : Player A, tough professional, 14K chips. Player B, knowledgable wannabe, 15K chips. Player C, weak player who has run very hot, 40K chips. Antes are 400.
B, (??)Q as high card opens with a pot-size bet of 1200. A, (??)T, raises 3000. C, (??)7 calls. Now B re-raises 8K and A goes all-in which is about 2K more. B has 3K left so can just cover it. C is facing 11K and can put B all-in for 1K more, and C's stack is 35K. I don't know exactly what he had but a pair of 7s is likely so let's suppose that's what it is. What's his play ? What's his play _if he knows he is a big underdog heads-up against either opponent_ ?
By the way, I was going to say Game Theory rather than Game Strategy but don't want to get pulled up by precise mathematicians over terminology :-).
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
C should have folded the first time he acted, and definitely should fold now. These guys are not bluffing at this point. The first raise in a 3-handed game can easily be a steal attempt, but a reraise and a rereraise, plus an all-in rerereraise, do NOT equate to a bluff. In fact, I'll be surprised if player B doesn't have KK or AA in the hole, or a set of Ts.
Player C can fold here and enjoy a reasonable chip lead whoever wins. If C calls, he will lose more often than not, and the winner (A or B) will now have a chip lead of over 2:1 on C.
The only hand C can call with here is trip 7s, and if he knows the players well enough, it may be that he should read B for trip Ts and fold anyway.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
Normally he should fold, yes. And I agree that he should have folded initially. _Given that all opponents play at about the same level_ .
What in fact happened, however, was that C folded, B won the hand and then beat C to a pulp heads-up. Remember, the antes are still relatively small at 400. C was never going to win heads-up against B and I suspect that A would have finished the job even quicker. I believe that calling on the hand described gives C a 20% chance of winning the tournament which is a better shot than his heads-up chances. In addition, the fact that A and B have almost equal chips means that C is risking very little because the loser out of A and B will either be out (A) or have 1k left (B) and so C is virtually guaranteed second place anyway. Plus, the actual hands were not _that_ big, B had (Q2)Q and A had (AhQh)Th .
My point in general is that if you think you will be outplayed heads up you might be better off going all-in when, say, a 2-1 dog. However if the antes/blinds are larger you'll always have a puncher's chance, and of course all the posters on this forum are good enough players that you'll rarely be that much of a dog :-).
All comments welcome.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
Andy.
Assuming Players A and B have A-A and Q-Q respectively (their biggest most likely hand to put that much action in on 3rd street -- if they had a set, they'd have likely laid a trap), C has about a 25% shot at winning. I agree with your assessment that he'd have been better off calling. Given the hands actually dealt, he wasn't that far behind the other two hands (36%, 36%, 28%).
A lot of fast-action limit stud tourneys (where the final table is usually no-limit) seem to play out in this fashion, with a player taking a stand with a single pair, regardless of the size -- and seemingly doing as well as the bigger pairs. A player is in much more danger in stud when they commit all their money on 3rd street than when they do that in hold-em before the flop.
Game strategy is the answer. C must fold, because if A wins and C calls, C may end up with 3rd place. The poker hand values do not matter.
MAH,
See my response to Greg. And remember that even if C calls and A wins, B only has 1K left and is crippled.
Andy.
He should put both opponents "all in" if possible. In that way he knocks out at least one of the opponents and is thus guaranteed second place even if he does not win the hand.
And if he happens to win the hand, then he wins first place right there.
You guys on the east coast get up awful early. I'm still in my shorts drinking my orange juice.
Buzz
I ended up in the unenviable position of having twice the blind remaining in tournament chips in a pot limti hold em tourney.
I was one off the button shortly after a break and raised the pot all in with a pair of deuces. Should I have waited? I could have looked at several (at least five) more hands before posting half my stack, but I was first in and did have AK beat.
Did I make an error?
10-8os is only an 11-10 dog over pocket deuces...
We need some more information - how many players have already called ? That makes a big difference. If no one has yet called, I would definitely raise the button and the blinds with 22. If three or more have called already I probably wouldn't, because they will most likely call your small raise as well. That's my gut feeling.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
To clarify, I was first in, there were no callers, the button and the big called. I got knocked out by K-10 who turned a ten.
As you know, the small pairs (6-6 seems to hold up much better than 5-5 and below) hold up about 50% of the time against overcards. If you get called by anyone but the big blind, that's the least you are up against. Another nasty issue when you have the little pairs is when the board comes with two pair, and you lose to ANY overcard. Still, as Andy notes, if you were the only one coming in at that point, it's a close decision -- but you probably weren't going to be dealt anything much better before the blinds get back to you. Before making that all-in play with 2xBB though, accept that the big blind is going to call you with anything (or should).
Chris - I think Andy really wanted to know how close you were to the money. If you're looking at half a room of players still left, then you're in an almost hopeless postion.
If you're looking one or two tables of players (or maybe three), then I don't think you optimized your opportunities.
I wouldn't say you made an error, but if I had been in your shoes I would have waited for a better hand to voluntarily commit chips.
I only play Omaha-8 and mostly in tournaments. However, I think the reasoning might be about the same in a very low chip position.
Your opponents, if they are any good at all, are looking to knock you out of the tournament, especially if you have a low stack, as you do in the situation described. Their best strategy is to call you pre-flop with almost anything, just to get you to commit your chips, and then not raise each other once you are all in. Thus they should try to get you in a situation where you are facing more than one opponent. In the situation you described, the button should call and so should the blinds. Then they should just check the rest of the way to the showdown. Their object on this hand should be just to eliminate you and not be at war (for the moment) with each other.
Usually someone doesn't catch on to the best strategy to eliminate you and raises. Then you offer a silent prayer of thanks if one or more of your opponents folds along the way to the showdown.
But you're not likely to buy (or steal) the blinds with a low chip stack, almost regardless of the number of opponents.
My strategy in that position, and I have been there many times, is to go into my survival mode. I just wait for the blinds and hope that some of my opponents will eliminate other opponents before I have to commit my chips. And usually they do. Along the way, as i am moving up from ninth to eigth to seventh to sixth to fifth to fourth to third (really!), I fold some very good hands. I would need an Omaha-8 hand the equivalent of a pair of aces to commit my chips before I was forced to commit when in the survival mode.
I don't think you made an "error," but perhaps the survival mode strategy I use in Omaha-8 might also be adapted to Texas hold 'em. At least it seems better to me than prematurely committing with a hand less than a pair of aces (or at least kings).
But, like I say, I just play Omaha-8.
Buzz
I've been there - you have to tell your self is this the best I'm gonna see before the blinds take me out judgement shot - you can win it with 22 as well as flopping a set. I'd probably do the same thing.
The question is slightly more complicated than "Is this the best HAND that I'm likely to see prior to the big blind?" The real question is "Is this the best SITUATION that I'm likely to see prior to the big blind?"
While it's true that I would prefer a medium A or a very good K over 22 in your spot, any pair and any A is good enough, because there are only 2 or 3 players left to act behind you. If you fold this and wait, you may get a better hand, such as A9 or 66. However, when you raise, you will now have as many as 9 players yet to act behind you, any of which may find himself with a premium hand. Here, with 22, at least there are only a couple of folks you have to beat.
As an additional benefit, by going now, if you win, you will still have a few hands left before you post the blind in which to make another stand (if you get a good enough hand). If you wait and go all-in just before the blinds hit, and you win, you will have to post 15-25% of your stack in the big blind in the next hand or 2.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Points well taken.
I should not have been in that situation anyway, but I made a couple of bad decisions on a crucial hand earlier on in the tournament, and basically got outplayed by a loose but creative player.
I could have gotten lucky, and the deuces were worth trying to get lucky with.
I did not.
how many chips has the big blind got
That was something that I failed to consider, but he had about 6 times his blind.
Should I be more willing to steal if he only had twice, or three times his blind?
The button cam in and almost reraised to give me protection. I wish that he had, because he folded on the turn when bb bet with K-10.
Sure, if calling your raise is going to weaken his stack considerably, he may pass if he's a tight player determined to survive. It doesn't matter anyway as you have no choice but to play as you did. If your pair stands up, you now have enough chips to steal the blinds again before you get back into this position again. Better luck next time !
N L 4 players left. top 3 in the money.player A goes in with 5k,player b calls all in. Player c calls, but has about 5k chips left. I fold in big blind with AA I have 12k left. did i make a mistake.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
... A set of steak knives!
(Glengarry Glen Ross, of course)
I'm afraid so by the sound of it. There are occasional situations in tournaments where you make plays that you wouldn't in a ring game, calling with a hand you know is not best (see my More Game Strategy Than Poker post below) or folding a hand that is probably best, but it does not actually come up very often. These are the most interesting hands to discuss so they come up quite often _on this forum_ but in real play you need to be able to pick your spot carefully. It'll come with experience, but this was a case of overdoing it and maybe thinking too much.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
I am sure I will be the only guy here saying this but I have done, and will do the same thing - fold AA in this situation. It is smart strategic play. AA gets cracked all the time you have a chance to move up 2 places and get heads up - for the big prize. It is a tough lay down but the smart play.
Well, I had better qualify this by saying that Hold-Em is not my main game. But I totally disagree. We need to know the payout structure and how many chips each player has to do the sums but I can't believe that folding is +EV here. AA gets cracked all the time _when there is the possibility of meaningful betting on the flop_ . Surely when all the betting is done pre-flop you can't fold here. If your opponents are playing reasonably, there is a good chance at least one of them has an underpair which is really struggling, or A-anything which is dead in the water. You have got to be losing $$ if you fold here and I will take a great deal of convincing otherwise.
Rounder, give me a real situation with chip counts and payout structure where you folded AA and we'll take it from there.
Andy.
I think in certain situations it is better to watch than play - I have folded AA twice in tournaments - one time to make the final table the other very much like Dreamers example. BTW I have folded other pairs many times for the same reasons.
Sorry but as good as the pair of A's is going against 3 guys say with a pair each - that is 30 outs (2 each X 5 cards - we're gonna see all 5 cards). I don't like the odds here so if it means moving up a couple of places or guaranteeing me final table seat I'm gonna muck them.
I know I am in the minority here on a lot of strategic points this is one of them I guess.
Rounder,
"Other pairs", fine. Aces, I have to disagree. And IMO, doing it just to make the final table is even worse. If you would like me to expand my reasoning I will - if your mind is made up, good luck.
I believe that FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome) of this type combined with trying to survive for a guaranteed small payout instead of maximizing one's chances of winning big constitutes the biggest leak in _very many_ otherwise good, even excellent, tournament players. IMO, this one factor means that I win more money than some opponents who in most other areas of the game are superior to me.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
Andy, Are you saying you would "NEVER" muck AA - no matter what the situation - I don't think so, you seem to smart to rule out a strategic move like this.
All I am saying is under the right circumstances I have mucked AA and will in the future.
Rounder,
Let me say that in all the real situations I have heard described in proportional pay-out tournaments, and I have heard one or two verbally as well as on the Internet, where people have folded AA, I wouldn't have done it myself. You can construct unlikely scenarios which might come about once in a blue moon, e.g. A has 100 chips and bets all-in, B has 80 chips and foolishly calls, you have 1 chip and AA - OK then you fold. Er, probably.
In the tournaments I play in there is a technical rule stating that if it doesn't finish before 2.30 am, then only three more hands are played and the winner is determined on chip count but prizes stay as scheduled. This hardly ever has to be enforced, but in this spot with more than 50% of the chips after 3 antes/blinds, then I'd fold everything including AA. Super-satellites are the same principle.
So no, not never, it's just that in all real cases I have heard, I disagree with the play. And (I'm not saying that you personally do, but) if part of your thinking is that you can impress everyone by telling them afterwards, then just bear in mind this is costing you $$$, so you'd better enjoy it a lot :-)
Andy.
Andy if I ever muck a good hand I never let anyone know I had it. It might as well have been a 72 - and I would only do it in really extreem circumstances and I am not sure it is the right call but I just do what I can to place as high as I can.
BTW I am planning to be at the UK championships in Birmingham In March/April. Will you be there?
I didn't think you would be publicising it, that was just for anyone else reading.
UK Championship - last year it was all Hold-Em and Omaha. If it's the same this time round I'm unlikely to be there. I will certainly let you know if I run good enough before then to change my mind.
Thanks,
Andy.
if you muck two aces in this situation i would like to bet on the other guy in the heads up.
Rounder says:
"... the pair of A's is going against 3 guys with a pair each- that is 30 outs (2 each X 5 cards- we're gonna see all 5 cards).
Sorry, but that is complete nonsense. If that were your philosophy, you would always fold Queens to an all-in raiser here, even if you KNEW the raiser had AK. After all, your chances are nearly identical since he (by himself) has 6 outs x 5 cards against you and you ave the same number of redraws. And if you are heads up against overcards, you are only getting even money on your call. In the situation described above, you have the chance to get win more than 3 to 1 while facing the same number draw-outs.
I thought Rounder like to play from the lead. It's not going to get mch better than this.
bad play. even if you lost you would be in the money as you would still have chips left or would have the most before going all in. you would have to have some phoney split to put you in trouble. although some thing similar happened to me at a 10,000 buyin last table once.
if you won you win first place. its a no brainer here.
i agree. about the only place it is correct to make such a fold is in a super-satellite structure where just hanging on at the final table is rewarded. the big money is in 1st, i'll take my chances with a-a.
In the situation posted the outcomes can be examined fairly easily. 1) Your aces hold up and win. You win. 2) You lose to the guy with 10K ('C') - he has ~28K you have 2K - You get at least 2nd and you're a big dog for first. 3) 'A' wins - he has 18K --- You beat 'C' you have 12K - heads up for first - 'C' beats you - you have 2K - he has 10K - guarenteed third - uphill climb to first 4) 'B' wins - he has ~12K --A Beats you and C - He has 6K- - C beats you - he has 10K - you have 2 - You're a dog for any money. 5) etc, etc, etc
You muck AA- If 'C' wins you're heads up for first he has 18K - --- If A wins he has ~13K, C has 5K B is gone. If B wins he has ~9K - A has 2K - C has ~9K - Crapshoot time again.Or A has 9K - C has 7K
I would seriously consider mucking AA here depending on the amount of money - my percieved level of the skill of other players and how good I was feeling about my own play at that point. If I felt I could outplay the other folks I would most likely muck AA and play it out for the big $$. If it was TJ & J.Bonetti, etc, I'd probably call and hope for the best. I'd consider not putting C all in before the flop. Does this make sense? I'd have to agree with the never say never.
Cire,
You make no mention of the fact that some of those scenarios (the winning ones) are a lot more likely than others. Even with all those combinations, it's more likely than not that you win it right there, and you only lose any significant chips if C beats you. AA is at least 4-1 favourite over any one hand heads-up, and you are heads-up for a good proportion of the pot. C might even fold for the last 5K if you go over the top and he is a weak player.
Andy.
P.S. Dreamer... What Flopped? ! ?
.
I would like some help on this topic. I think I show my cards too often when I win an uncontested pot. This is especially relevant for NL tourneys. I never show a big bluff. I will usually show a very strong - for instance I make a large bet after the flop with top pair top kicker and take down the pot. Many times I will show a strong hand after I have obviously slow played - like after a big bet on the turn and I show a set I flopped and slow played until the turn. I will also show big pairs, big slick, big chick if I steal the blinds with them. I like people to think that I am a tight aggressive strong player so that when I do play a little fast, I get the respect and people will fold. However, most people dont show their hands this often, so I am assuming I am making some mistakes, even as small as looking inexperienced due the mere fact that I show the cards. Help me.
I think there is a balance - some never show and some show too much. I think you have to find the happy medium. Advertising is useful and I can say that I have found very few really good/great players that never show.
Hungryman,
Check the Tournament archive for a post I made called "Positive Re-inforcement" on 26th November. I received several good responses which you may also find helpful.
It sounds like you're thinking about the right things anyway. Basically if you do this you want to encourage your opponents to make mistakes. If they fold too often, encourage them to fold even more. If they call too often, encourage them to call even more (if you're sure you want them to call more _in a tournament_). Make sure you know why you are showing your cards before you do it and you should be OK.
PS looking inexperienced is not a problem, if you can actually play then this can be to your benefit.
Andy.
Be cafeful: might get wrong response. I showed a hand, a stone cold bluff, but the dealer didn't kill the hand. Dealer had cards in his hand player screamed dealer dropped cards, the ruling went against me.
when you show your cards the players learn more about the specifics of how you play and that costs you money. plus it makes them think about how you play and you dont want that. showing a hand doesnt make them think along a generalization of how you play it keys them into your thinking. i have never seen a long term winner that shows his hand frequently. sooner or later your you pay the piper.
I've seen Cloutier, Hellmuth, and Seed "flash" their hole cards regularly in no limit holdem...mostly after having stolen the blinds with good hands or big cards. They also like to flash an ace without showing the other hole card. What could be the tactical reason for this practice, Ray? Do you have some guidelines on how and when to use this tactic?
I've seen the same thing and it is gamesmanship. Pure and simple not a bad practice if you know what you are doing.
its ok to do it when you give out no information as with a hand you would make that steal with anything. however good players will get to know your playing quirks and that will cost you dearly. they do it for fun not for tactical reasons. if a good player has an accurate read on you it will probably be enough to make it impossible for you to win if he knows how to exploit it. especially in no limit. in limit you might be able to win enough off of the other people to keep from going broke. the funny part is you will go broke and never know why always thinking you have bad luck.
Went to this NL tourney after seeing the ad in Cardplayer saying there was a $20,000 guarantee and no rebuys. I left a profitable 15-30 game at the Normandie to do so. When I get to the sign up desk, one of the CP dealers tells me that it is a single rebuy tournament, not a no rebuy as advertised. Enough tourney players were pissed that the tournament director announced that any one dissatisfied with the new structure could get a refund of the buy-in. This doesn't address the problem that Crystal Park deviates from their advertised tournament offerings. I went out of my way to go over and play in this tournamnet, I wasn't going to get my money back and go do something else.
I'll tell you this though, this was my last tournament at Crystal Park (except for ESCARGOT which I plan on attending and participating in) until such time as I have reliable assurances that this type of crap is no longer happening. I talked to several others who felt strongly that boycotting Crystal Park tournaments was the thing to do.
CP Noon Limit Holdem, 20 minute rounds. We're about halfway through the second post rebuy round at 50-100 blinds, 100-200 limit. There are still 5 tables with maybe 40 out of the 45 who started. 9 places paid. I'm reconstructing from memory here so...
Short stacked wildman in seat one raises in mid position, mid stack wildman in seat two calls, I'm in the bb in seat 6 with T1500 left holding 10h 8h and call (decision #1), solid player in BB calls. Four players for two bets ($800) see the flop of 10s 9s 9c.
I check (decision #2), BB bets, Wild #1 raises all-in, Wild #2 re-raises, I fold (decision #3), BB folds.
Comments? The problem is suppose to address how you figure out when to make a move in the early going of a more gamble than skill tourney.
John
decision 1 was a mistake - you can't be calling raises with T8 -
In a tourney with this much wild gambling I like to let the maniacs kill each other and just watch the slaughter. SO go into your shell and watch the idiots kill each other off. It means folding hands like T8 and playing premium hands only.
I play in a $23 buy in NL HE tourney about twice a week and rarely do I feel like I have made a major mistake in my play but last week I think I may have made a big one.
I have $10,400 in chips and the blinds are $400-$800 and I am in 6th postition at a table of 8.
The player UTG raises to $2000. 2nd spot folds, 3rd, 4th, and 5th call and I look down to see A-Qs. I call, the button folds and both blinds call.
The flop comes A-4-6. 4-6 are both clubs. Blinds check to the intitial raiser who bets $1000. 3rd and 4th fold, 5th calls and I raise all in making it $8400 straight. The blinds fold, the bettor calls all in with $1400 of it and 5th calls with $7900 of it.
We are all all in so the hands are shown. The bettor has A-10, and the 5 has A-J of clubs. Needless to say the turn is an airball and the river is the 7 of clubs and he breaks us both.
Did I make a mistake?? I was absolutely sure there was not an A-K out there as these players would definetly raise with big slick. I was right that I had the best on the flop but did I scew up in risking it all when I knew there was likely a flush draw??
Any replies or comments(criticism included) would be greatly appreciated. I am a relatively new player (been playing in cardrooms for about 6 months) and would like to hear the insight of some experienced players that I don't face everyday.
Dony
With a two flush on the flop yuour hand goes way down in value.
Your all in bet on the flop might have been better if made pre flop but you were committed to the pot and you went in - you were the favorite when you made the bet so your decision was correct. You got beat but you had the best of it when you made your play so good job.
all in before the flop means you either end your opponets love affair with acejack or at least leaves you with a good story.
There are 2 alternative plays to consider here.
First, as mentioned by another, you should consider going all-in preflop. If everyone folds (which is what you want), you will profit by T9,200, which is huge given you started with less than T11,000. The primary issues here are what are the chances that the UTG raiser has you beat preflop, and will everyone fold or not? If you're confident you have the best hand preflop, and if you think only 1 or none will call your raise, then it seems like a good play to me, considering how much dead money (T7,200 or more) there will be in the pot.
However, just calling preflop and waiting to see if you flop anything is not necessarily a mistake. Now, once this flop hits with its flush draw, I think the main question is how sure are you that at least one of the opponents has a flush draw? If this is highly likely, raising preflop is OK, as you are the favorite (but not by much over AcJc, with his 12 outs). But, if you just call on the flop, and the turn is a non-flush card, you should THEN go all-in. On the flop, AJ has to call your big raise, because he's getting a shot at a huge pot where he is either ahead, or has 9-12 outs to catch up. If you wait until the turn to go all-in, he still has 12 outs, but with only one chance to catch, his odds of beating you have dropped to close to 3:1 against. At this point, you are MUCH more likely to get him to fold, and if he doesn't fold, you're a significant favorite instead of a tiny favorite.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
When there is a flush draw on the board in NL, the better play with best hand is to NOT go all-in on the flop; rather go all-in on the turn. Certainly the flush draw did not make a mistake by calling on the flop (not only might he already have the best hand, but he's also got the best draw and the right price to draw at it). But once the blank hits on the turn, the flush draw no longer has the price to draw. If he does and beats you, that's just too bad.
You didn't make the biggest mistake though. With a full field behind the initial raiser, we can totally disregard the "sand in the eyes" aspect of him betting $1000 into a $14000 pot. Once he gets raised, he has to fold. Either he's drawing nearly dead, he's beat in several spots, and/or has bigger draws behind him. By betting/calling, he's essentially giving his money away.
Depending upon my feel for how the players would react, I may have moved all-in before the flop with the A-Qs, trying to pick up the dead money already out there (there are only 4 hands that you're really concerned about and except for the initial raiser, there's no indication you are facing any of them).
As many NL authors have wrote, A-Q is the biggest of the trouble hands, and it is well worth its reputation.
Afew months ago, I quit playing tournaments to concentrate my efforts and bankroll on playing ring games. Allthough I few much enjoy playing tournaments, and was holding my own fairly well, I never managed to finish in the money. The problem is that I would always end up getting really close, but close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
Anyway, the reason I am posting is that I am thinking abut playing in a tournament again sometime in the near future. I have ordered "Poker Tournament Strategies" from Amazon, and when I finish it one time through, I will give it a shot.
I was thnking about this while I was out on the road today, and a particular hand came to mind. Keep in mind that this hand occured 6-8 months ago, and its all from memory, so I will give the details as well as I can remember.
$40 buy-in single table, no rebuy NL HE. Pays first and second place (I think it was about 65% for first and 35% for second). Three players remain, with one guy, who is a pretty poor player(at least in ring games in which I have played with him), having making a big hand to eliminate player four and now has about T$8500 out of total T$10000. Me and another player have almost exactly the same amount of chips. If I recall correctly, the blinds were around $200/400, so the other player and I had enough to each see 3-4 more hands.
When the chip leader takes down the big pot, he looks at me (I'm in the big blind) and says that he plans on putting me all in on every hand. So, he gets his hand, and says, "I'm not even going to look at them", puts a chip on top of them, and slides them in front of his stack of chips. I look down at pocket 8's. The other short stack (to my left,on the button) folds. Leader, as advertised, puts me all in. I think for a second and go ahead and push my chips in the middle.
I turn over my hand, and the dealer deals the flop. He didn't bother to turn his over yet, guess he was going for dramatic effect. Anyway, he ended up having Ace-rag and an ace flopped, so I was eliminated.
My question for all of you is, was I correst to go ahead and gamble with this guy with my medium pair, or should I have just held on and hoped the other guy would be eliminated first and take second?
This kind of thing is what trips me up in tournaments. In a ring game, I wouldn't think twice about betting my pocket pair against a single opp playing blind, but I'm not so sure about my decision here.
I look forward to seeing what you all have to say.
Thanks, Mike
Mike you poker 8's is a good hand here - you did the right thing. I'd make that play every time.
Mike try out TJ Cloutiers PL NL HE - it is a great read and the concepts are good for advanced players. It made a big difference in my tournament game.
Thanks Rounder-
I appreciate the advice, but one other thing, do you happen to know where I can pick up a copy of cloutier's book? Thanks!
Mike
Cardssmith Publishing 4535 W Sahara #105 Las Vegas, Nv. 89102
or call gamblers book club 800-522-1777
Hope D &M don't mind me giving this info.
Not to worry boys, you get plenty of my money allready :)
I'm sure Chuck would he happier if someone mentioned www.conjelco.com though :-). Seriously I have always found Conjelco reliable and helpful.
PS play with the 8s is mandatory, don't worry about it.
Andy.
Just recieved my copy of Cloutier a few days ago and the tournament section is very good. Hope to use it to good effect tonight. Ordered it from Gambler's Book Club. Good luck. Dave
Hi all:
Our first-year LL hero (me) has just come back from logging his 133rd hour (it's taken 10 months, stupid WI gaming laws) at the 5-10 HE tables in Aurora (+$852, I'm sure you really care) and naively feels that he's ready to try his first tournament. So, what better way than to dive right into February's WI Poker Championships held in... you guessed it, Iowa (sigh).
Limit Hold-Em. Expect about 60 players. Blinds increase every 20 minutes.
Buy-in $70 gets you T1000. First hour rebuys $15 for T1000. Second Hour rebuys $20 for T1500. Add on after rebuys $35 for T3000. Unlimited rebuys at or below T1000.
Ok? So, here are my questions...
1) Based upon the structure, which I have heard called "goofy" before, what would your basic strategy for rebuys and the add-on be?
2) Before I sat down in LL I studied the "recommended" books which I fully credit much of my early success. If I plan on doing this in Feb, and the Iowa WSOP satellite in March and maybe heading to the WSOP in April - is there a book or two that you feel would help tremendously in my results? How about Wilson's newest tournament software?
3) What would be THE things (let's say-3 things) that you would say are the keys to surviving... oh heck, down right winning one of my first efforts?
Your answers qualify you to say "I told you so" when I post the resulting trip reports...
As always, thanks for the great advice.
Michael
Be the flop... See the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
You have to add on in the 3 periods for that kind of money and chip count you have to do it.
3 things to do to win or do well.
1. play good cards - if your gonna draw make sure it is a big pot and big hand.
2. play the 1/2 really tight and loosen up as you go up in the size of the blinds.
3. when the table is short handed loosen up a little but not to much. A8 goes up in value in a 4 handed game.
don't be afraid to go broke at any time and never give up.
I can't give you advice, but I would like to know where to get info on the Iowa sattelite tourney in March that you are talking about. Can I still join?
Thanks.
Call Kevin, the poker room manager at the Miss Marquette 1-800-4 YOU BET. He'll give you all the info. It's a nice little poker room (6 tables), with nice people staffing it. He'll get you the poker rate at a local hotel, too. Frank
Has anyone tried this new software and is it worth the price (60 $) ?
I bought it as an upgrade to my other Wilson products for $30. If you are planning to use this as a learning tool I would say "don't buy it." Just for kicks it's OK. I have played five tournaments and won two with hte maximum number of players and buyin of $10000 with two hour time limits. This approximates the World Series. One of the tournamenst I played I raised every hand that was not raised in front of me. I won. The other tournament I won I played using correct tournament strategy more or less. I takes about four hours to finish.
The Wilson NL HE ($60 or $30 to up grade, which I helped to develop over 18 months, I think is an excellent learning tool if you play NL tourneys, satellites,freezeouts(1 on 1) or even cash games.Since 1986 I've been playing poker and had only 2 losing years (-$11 and -$1125), In 1988 my win for the year $8555...1999 my win was $17005! (poker is just a weekly hobby for me)I think the big jump in my win rate has a lot to do with the NEW Wilson NL HE program. In (3)national super satellites and single table satellites I had a 80% success rate!Enough about me!
I normally play the Wilson single table (sometimes 3 or 4) NL tourneys (no RBs or AOs) and win on average about 50% of the games.In one evening (3 hrs) I played 17 tournaments. I find the program exciting and FUN! Some of the skills I practice on the NL program, which I put into live games are (1)Focusing on opponents possible hole cards (2)play with structure/players chip holdings in mind. (3) Improve my fearless play. The computer opponents have a real 'range of tricks'. In one hand the flop came 10.A.Q. and it was checked heads-up to the river I held J.9.(two blanks hit).On the river my opponent bet full pot, I called and raised twice the pot size, as I was sure he was weak or bluffing. He called me with 10.7.(a pair of 10s). Programs like Wilson's should be treated by the 'experts' as just computer poker and fun,but a player CAN learn from playing them at home! (I have!!)
Nearly every time the players check they fold. My betting and bluffing frequency is skewed way to high to in any way simulate live action.
When's George Forman going to be selling his grill on this site?
If you helped develop this program, please let us know whether you stand to benefit financially from extra sales. Then we can consider your advice in the appropriate context :-).
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
I haven't seen the program but your comment that raising every hand not raised in front is a winning strategy indicates that the balance is not right. Computer programs are similar to weaker players in that a weak/tight player is much easier to win money off than a weak/wild player.
This doesn't mean that the program is not potentially useful, just that you have to exercise some care when drawing conclusions about strategy to take into real games.
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
I made nothing (in $$$) direct from Bob Wilson by helping to develop his NL HE program.I love NL HE, it is my favourite game and I was happy to help the 'further promotion of poker world wide'.He gave me the finished program,plus I also received Turbo Texas HE(1998) to review for Poker Digest and Cards Poker Magazine (Australia). I agree the NL HE computer players can be beaten by 'very aggressive plays', but I have found this strategy also work for ME in live games and tournaments/satellites. Occassionally I get caught!Basically computer poker should be treated as a FUN activity. 1000s of people who have them are not close to a public card room.
Thanks Darryl,
Maybe I will check this program out.
Andy.
Darryl
Fun is one thing (and they ARE fun, and useful in many ways- I'm a big fan and user of the products Bob produces). However, I think a majority of the people on this forum are looking for more professional-style help from any software....
In that vein, I question the training value of the NL tourney. Since I received my copy, I've mostly used it to simulate a NL tourney, max players.
Having won 2 times out of 9-10 attempts (can't remember), I've found that the "Tough" players don't handle extreme aggression at ALL well... or, at least, it seems they don't (I've never been in a real NL tourney) based on what I've read here and elsewhere as proper strategies
I can steal antes from the last 2-3 seats 75% of the time. No one, not even the chip leader (5+ to 1 ratio in chips to my holding), has the cojones to call me out of even sheer curiosity (not that a computer would, mind you). I've almost NEVER been reraised, and I doubt those were raise-bluffs...
I can steal raise 2-4 times in a row without a caller. These are not all-in raises, or significant raises, especially at final table. These raises are in the 10-1 ratio (my bet is 1/10 of pot) or worse, where almost ANY holding could at least see the flop, based on immediate and implied pot odds.... yet I rarely get called, and 95% of those can be driven off post flop (or trapped in a big way).
Few of the tough players seem to make any moves. I suspect one or two, but without the peek button I can't confirm during game (and I don't check in database settings for the player).
Large chip leaders who are NOT me don't seem (in my uninformed opinion) to throw their weight around as much as they should, especially against smaller stacks or aggressive players (read: me). This seems ESPECIALLY glaring at the final table...
I think it's great to get some experience in the game, but it's not GOOD experience. I think the WSOP software caused me more problems, win-rate wise, and my win rate with WSOP was WAY over what my expectation should be (given my lack of experience)......
I was expecting the tough players to be much tougher than they are. I haven't tried the lower-ranked players yet... I didn't think that the game would be this easy to beat for me.
I realize it must be very tough to program a computer to react on "suspicions" (i thought the "On-tilt" setting found in most of TT was supposed to somewhat approximate this). However, i think something needs to be done to change this generally timid group of players...
....nnless, of course, the vets on this forum tell me that this general timidity reflects the real-world experiences out there? I kinda doubt it, but....maybe I should quit my job, move to Vegas with $60 K, and win win win!
Just posting to give a nod of the head to Vince for finishing 12th out of 251 in the $500 stud event at the Carnivale of Poker.
Please feel free to congratulate him on beating 239 opponents, or tease him for spending that much time in a tournament only to miss out by a few places on the real money. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'm staying at the Frontier (Harras needed 3 days min.) playing in the $500 NL HE Sat. night and any satellites I can find.
Fossil,
Tell the Leper to get his butt back here that I had to hire you in the interim, to Zing The Zee. You were right I was jealous I didn't think of that. See you at FW sometime.
Paul
ps: Next time we want the Superbowl Ring not 12th.
it shows to go ya that even a person with absolutely no talent can become a champ by using the forum and reading books. faftap (from a frog to a vince)
Ray,
faftap - from a frog to a vince - maybe you meant from frog to a penis. Of course we both know that you are too afraid of Mason to use the word penis on the forum. Don't be. I played 20-40 stud with Mason the other night. He's a nice guy. Even said that you were a pussy cat (or maybe I said that). Pussy - Perfectly Useless Senial Senior Yuppie.
Vince.
Fossilman,
Thanks for the kind words. I am at Nellis AFB writing this. (Z - ZFB - Z(Zee) - AFB (Air Force Base) Aee qwould never have figured that out without PF's help -PF - oh never mind).
Rounder if you read this. There is a $60 buy in NL tournament at the O'rleans tonite 7p.m. I'll be there. 12th was a money place fininish $1882 so it wasn't a disaster. Fossilman you are correct about "coming THAT CLOSE TO THE REAL MONEY" It is a kidding matter btu it didn't feel that way when it happened. I had just gotten to the next pay level They increased the money at 12th place and I wanted some chips. I had played a short stack for the entire tournament. I never even had a medium stack at any point. I was fortunate in every hand, save one, I selected to either be ahead and win or be slightly behind and catch up. I remeber being way behind with 7,7,6,6,x,x against kings up and filled up on the river. I felt very good about my play up until I was knocked out. I was sitting between P. Helmuth and D. Negreanu. They both had big stacks. I had about 3000 in chips and picked up jc,9c,,3c. I had not played a draing hand all day but was in need of chips. Not really! That was my mistake. I had plenty of ante chips. I only felt that I needed more chips because I wanted to win the tournamnet and thought I needed a big stack to fight with. Calling a hand with the 3 clubs reduced my stack to almost half. On the very next hand after this loss we went to 12 people. I had convinced myself (wrongly) that I needed more chips and now put myself into a situation were I really did need more chips. I was afraid that what ever hand i chose all the opponents at the table with bgi stacks would just call to try and eliminate me. I elected to go for a weak startinf hand against 2 opponents just to try and win some chips. I was gone with a whimper. The moral of this story, if there is one. Not only do you never give up never let your emotion rather than your logic guide your decisions. I beleived and still do that I was one othe the top players in the final 12 and may have had a real shot if I waited a little longer. Sure we all say that now don't we!
Vince.
I like what you wrote here vince.
Most guys just whine about their bad luck. You figured out a mistake in your play. I am sure you are less likely to repeat that error in the future (especially as compared to the whiners).
See ya back at the Woods for the NEPC, if not before.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Blinds $1500/$3000 - I have T$7500 - I am under the gun with A8o - 6 handed table 12 left in the tournament.
Table very loose and aggressive very few flops seen for less than all in. I had shown several big hands at this table.
What is the best move here?
I'll post my action and results later.
You are holding a piece of cheese. Raise all-in if you want to come in sixth.
you waited too long and got yourself painted into a corner, unless you lost a hand shortly before. since you have to post half your stack next hand id move in since its 6 handed and tight and you have a great chance of winning the blinds or playing aginst the bb as an even money shot or something close. id rather take some the worst of it with a chance to get 15000 or win uncontested then play next hand and have to win with a random two cards. since Badger announced to the world you are a loose loose player it seems you would get called here. the player would probably have crap and outdraw you.
I'd go all in. You'll get crippled with the blinds in the next two hands. If you fold you might sneak into the final but you're giving up too much in terms of winning the tournament.
I might qualify it however, if you tell us how many chips are in play ? If you get called, win and make it to 20K, is this a below-average, average or above-average stack ?
Andy.
I see your point. UTG puts Rounder out of wait time. Misread that. Thought he had a couple of rounds left in him. BTW I would like to know your thoughts on stack size required at the last table. I have usually been short stacked at the beginning of last table and had to survive until I could get a big hand. How would strategy change if I were middle to big stacked? Thanks, Dave
I would not go in an all-in scenario with A-8 but would be waiting for a big pair. You have a couple of rounds left before you have to win. You would have to win right now if you go in. I am pretty chicken but usually weasel into the money. Dave PS What happened?
Assuming that you are still an hour or more from having a winner in this tournament (i.e., your T7500 is not an average stack), then you raise here, all-in.
The most likely scenario is that everyone folds to the big blind, who may or may not call. With only 5 opponents, it is not very likely that anyone has a pair of 8s or better, nor is it too likely that anyone has a better A. Plus, if anyone outside the blinds has a better A (but less than AQ) they should fold it anyway.
I think that this chance is better than waiting for the next hand. Once you put up 3K in the blind, when someone raises you all-in there, you need to call unless you know they have an overpair. You've got a better shot here than there, basically.
Hope it worked out.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"I usually weasel into the money". I've said it before but it bears repeating, you are costing yourself $$$ by playing tight for a small guaranteed payout. If you want a guaranteed return, get a job :-). Play to win. Don't be a chicken or a weasel, be a _predator_ .
Andy.
BB had just a few thousand more than I had about 10K. I saw a bunch of sad faces and decided to push in on the A-rag - BB is a loose player though - he called with J7 and hit a pair on the flop. I was ahead and got out drawn - I win here and I have final table money. I was playing tight and had a good table image won previous hands with big pairs which were shown.
Guess it just wasn't my night.
Reading rounder's post on final table play with A-8o Rounder's post about playing A-8o late at the final table got me wondering about my effort on last Tues. tourney. was about middle of pack as only 38 players. On button I got 99 and was checked around to me; I raised, blinds were 1000. SB folded BB stayed. Flop was Q,T,5 and BB bet out 2000. I made a mistake and called 2000 here, got rag on turn and dropped wasting 4000 and finishing 6 instead of possibly going all the way. Now Rounder is wondering about staying in with A-8o. Did I screw up by not going to the wall with my 99? Appreciate dome advice from those who have played a lot more than me. Thanks, Dave
I would've dropped on the flop most of the time in the situation but it helps to now your stack size, the BB stack size, and any other info about how the BB plays.
Dave,
A couple of things, the A-8 below was not at the final table, there were 2 tables of 6. And it this hand you describe at the final table ? How big is your stack ?
In any case I'm sure you now realise that you need to make a decision on the flop with this hand. Either folding or going all the way would be better than calling and then folding on the turn. Which (folding or going all the way) depends on a million factors, some of them are, your stack size, prize payout structure, how many players left, how you perceive your opponent, how he perceives you .....
Andy.
www.pokersoft.co.uk
The decision isn't necesarrilly made pre-flop with this hand. This all depends on stack size, if he's short stacked, yes the decision would be made pre-flop, but if he's got a reasonable stack, there's no reason why he shouldn't release this hand on the flop.
On the flop, yes. And, all things being equal, I'd probably let it go myself with 2 overcards showing.
Andy.
x
I apologize for my garbled inital message. I had to delete some and got it a bit messed. I was at final table where they pay 8 of the 10. Chip leader was BB with about 12000, SB had about same as me, 6500. I am happy enough to learn somethink from each tourney. I initially stayed after the flop as the BB was very loose and aggressive but realized he would put me all in no matter what and did not like the 2 overcards. He could have had nothing; I wanted to stick around for the money. Wound up in 6 place but would have likely done better by keeping my money longer. Thanks for the replies. I learn something every week at this site. Dave
Yes-No-maybe at a full table on the button, stack size important along with the type of player you have in the blinds. Your call was clearly wrong with two over cards to your pair.
Does anyone know of a website that is listing Carnivale 2000 results? My search so far has yielded 1998 results, but nothing current. Thanks
COP results are on rpg and you can link there from here(2+2).
Post should have said rgp
This may not apply in the USA or Europe, but may apply in smaller areas/towns with limited public poker tournaments. In Australia since 1987 a small group of some 30 tournament players are winning most of the BIG money. They are the BEST poker tourney players we have. In my Feb.15 issue of Cards Poker Magazine I have an article suggesting SOME tournaments should be designed so the weaker/poor players can win a trophy and cash. Maybe bigger start banks (for fun), doubling every 15 minutes...a game of keno with cards, crap shot - where lady luck plays a more important role.Todays tourneys down under are the ultimate structure/design for the best to win most of the cash more often! With fields of 100 or so, most of the cash for the prize pool is put up by weaker players for the 10% of the field to win (better players). Month after month the weak donate to the better in Tourneys.Is this fair? Sure the wood ducks get up now and again to the money. The better players need to know where the prize pool comes from (the weak majority). In a golf tourney a sponsor puts up the cash and the players play golf for free.The better players get the prizes, but at no COST to the weaker golfers.In poker tourneys everyone puts up equal cash, but the tourneys are designed with bias towards the better tourney players. That bias isn't found in ring(cash)games, as it is in tourneys. The structures,blind raises, re-buys/add-ons,concept, all favour the best players, most of the time. I think it is time some tournaments were run so the "players who MAKE UP THE NUMBERS (and prize pools)" have a chance for some glory, even if lady lucks name is on the trophy. I often wonder if, back in the 1970s,the Las Vegas poker pros got together and designed tournaments as an easier way to get the 'sucker poker players money'. It is much easier to get the suckers cash in a tourney than a cash (ring) game, as there is so many of them in a tourney(what a great overlay).Any thoughts 2+2 champs!
Very Interesting Darryl, but I have to disagree. Poker tournaments allready have a pretty big luck factor compared to live games. Now that is not to say the the tournament player with skill is not going to get the money most of thime, but luck is definitely a factor. I can't see any reason why weak players should be rewarded for being weak.
You make the argument that the poor players are there simply to contribute to the prize pool, and you are right. However, this is also the case in live games. The weak player will always lose money to a skilled player in the long run. It would be possible for cardroom mangaers to tweek the structure of the game to reduce the edge enjoyed by the good players, but would that be fair? Of course not.
If the gamblers want to rely on luck to win a tournament, let them play a slots tournament.
Mike
Darryl,
You make some interesting points. The tournaments I play in are Pot-Limit, anything from 30-50 players, multiple rebuy with players averaging 2-3 rebuys. I think the lower number of players (50 rather than 100) and the rebuy aspect help the weaker players to have more of a chance. You do tend to see a lot of the same faces at the final table and there is certainly dead money in the tournaments, but enough weak players keep coming back.
I think there are a couple of reasons for this - weak players do get in the money some of the time, maybe just enough to keep them going ; as Ray mentioned a while back, frequently in big-bet poker you don't realise you've been outplayed and weak players in particular leave cursing their luck ; and (I'm speculating here) a lot of people must know they lose money but don't mind because they can afford it and they enjoy playing anyway - I'm thinking mostly of retirees.
So, if the number of players is holding up then they are coming back and you should be OK. If numbers are falling it's very important that new players are attracted and treated well - that is, not patronised or criticised by regular players. If some of the big "known" players play in small tournaments, behave well and encourage weaker players that is a big help and a couple of professionals (I wish there were more) do this very well in my club.
Andy.
"I think the lower number of players (50 rather than 100) and the rebuy aspect help the weaker players to have more of a chance."
Both those factors *hurt* the weaker players. In a freezeout, everyone puts in the same entry fee. In a rebuy tournament, the weaker players put in more than their share of the prize pool. Assuming similar ante structures, a larger field will mean more luck, since the antes or blinds will be higher when N players remain.
Dan,
Maybe you're right, I didn't really think it through and that was just my gut feeling. I would still suggest that a weaker player has a better chance with fewer opponents as they simply don't have to play as long and have fewer opportunities to make catastrophic mistakes but it's just a gut feeling.
The rebuy aspect does allow wild players to build a big stack on occasion. Granted, frequently they give it away later on. Preferably to me :-).
Andy.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
'
I don't know Mike, Badger but I think you agree with some of my ideas.With small fields of regular faces in tournaments (like in Australia) the winners circle is very small 20-30 out of 300 players. The other 270 get into the small prize money sometimes. All I'm suggesting is smaller poker tournaments have SOME tourneys with faster increasing blinds with smaller start banks (or larger for more fun), so the 100's of players who donate in every tournament have more chance of winning a TROPHY/and cash.
I guess I somewhat misunderstood your original post. If you are saying that you would like to change the structure of tournaments sometimes for the benefit of the weaker players. The better players will also benefit in the long run because the bad players will win enough to keep them coming back.
I just disagree with changing the structure allthogether, which it sounds to me now that you don't want to do that either, so I guess I agree with you for the most part.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Any tournament structure is against the weak player.
They have no chance unless they get very lucky through the tournament and still probably won't win it.
Dazzler,
How are you going to handicap these players???? If it's anything like golf your going to develop a new brand of sandbagger for trnmts that will make the sandbagger in golf look like a gentleman. The dishonesty in golf in trnmts using handicaps for prizes and money is ridiculous now. Let the players work on their games to improve, rather than subsidize them with chips. Maybe they don't want to put the effort into their game to improve, they just want to talk about being in the trmt and how they lost with a full house to whoever will listen to them.
Badger right about ring games play in LL 7CS game and see how you do with 5 callers every time. Luck will probably win that hand, because if the player was in a higer limit game he would throw away 2c10c/7d. On the river he ends up with a club flush and wins the pot.
paul
i always liked the idea of faster tournaments to give everyone more of a chance. the so called good players wanted long tournaments with the blinds going up slowly so they could always last and get into the money. this structure does in a way let the best players win but ruins the experience for the majority which have little chance. the entries into the tournaments have blossumed in the years since they have satellites because it allows weak players to win entries. nowadays in the usa there are many decent tournament players so our win lists contain many different names. the bad fun players still do not collect very often. in other countries there may not be as many decent players. this causes a small group of good players to compete against a larger group of quite bad players with the natural result of the same names winning all the money. thats the way it was many years ago at the world series of poker. it will change as players improve and the game is promoted in the affected places.
It is very unusual for me not make the final 2 tables and I usually see the same faces there time after time. When there is 75 to 100 starters in most of the tournaments it is obvious that 60 to 70% of the players have NO chance of making the money - they may get lucky early but always give it back due to bad plays.
A lot of the really bad tournament players are good ring players that can't adjust to the changing limits, tables and short handed situations. Bad players have no chance in these changing situations.
The world is full of losers - they populate casinos, OTB's, lottery lines and race tracks. If the strong and competant don't take their money who will - it is a dirty job but someone has to do it.
The true sin in life is not to seperate the sucker from his money when the opportunity presents itself.
Rounder,
The worry is they might stop coming back.
Andy.
If poker were as legal (unrestricted) as chess and if there were a national rating system, "class" tournaments could be run with different sections open to different skill levels. (Of course anyone could play "up.") A class "B" player could play in the "B" section with a chance to win a prize (funded by the "B" entrants) or he could play in the "Open" section to gain the experience of playing more skilled opponents. In chess tournaments, the lower sections also help fund the "Open" prizes--otherwise the Open prizes would not attract the top players. There are also tournaments open only to those below a set rating level.
Well, it finally happened...
I am pleased to say that my first tournament attempt since I gave up playing them 6 months ago was a success! I played in a small HE tournament today (sat) and finished first. I got my copy of Sylvester Suzuki's tournament strategies from Amazon earlier this week, read through it once, and used some of what I picked up from him to help me win. Actually, I started off pretty weak, but managed to make a lot of steals when the limits increased, and right after the break, and when it was down to the three of us that were in the money, I was the chip leader by a small margin.
Anyway, I just wanted to tell someone about my win, Thanks for listening!
Mike
Here's to more success in the future. The first one feels good doesn't it ?
Andy.
Nice to hear from a winner.Roll-on the WSOP?
.
Congrats, Mike. You could now afford the T.J. Cloutier book that has hold'em and tournament play. Keep it up. Dave
Nice going, already checked out Amazon and Suzuki's book is on the way. Keep it up......Red
I am considering a tourney O'maha 8 or better that plays 45 hands with 9 players and one rebuy, so everyone rebuys(99%). What are some basic strategies, I am new to this type of game and not use to paying so much attention to chip count and things like that. Any suggestions and some quick basics would be most appreciated. Do you play very tight in the early rounds where the profit is less etc.
On Tuesday I was at the international A tournament for master super stars final... and it was me and Crazy Pants McGee again(look in the texas hold'em section for our last game) but this time he was up to my tricks so i had to play cheater style... so I pulled a gun on him and tolled him to give me the trophee or I'd kill him... so he gave me the trophee and I ran off with it... now I'm the champ of the universe.
Ah that's really good man, Guards...Oh Guards
x
like the guy that works in the little booth on the turnpike?
I played in an online free roll Tournament at Delta Poker last night (I had qualified for it by playing in the live $50.00 buy-in a few weeks ago. I had figured that both tournaments were good practice for SARGE, Im a casino tournament virgin so any experience is a plus for me!
Structure: T5/10 Blinds T10/20 to start, Limits and Blinds double every 20 minutes, Starting Stack T500, Bounties $10 cash. Cash pay out: 1st place $1400, 2nd Place $450 + double bounties, 3rd Place $150 + double bounties, 4th and 5th got doubled bounties.
The following hand came up in the first round (T10/20 limit) that I thought was a little suspect, the winning player (UTG) did some suspicious/crazy betting (hopefully I have gotten the pot size correct for each round, no flames please):
Im 2 off the button with KcKh, UTG player calls T10 bring in and another player in middle position also calls the T10. I raise it T10, UTG re-raises T10 and middle position player calls both raises cold. I just call wondering if I should cap in this situation (comments? Was this a mistake not to cap it?), but fearing AA (pot: T105). The middle position cold caller really had me worried (big flush draw???).
Flop: 10dKs9d
UTG bets right out (AK, AQ with the flush/STR8 overlay??), middle player calls (again I put him on a big flush draw) and I re-raise (trying to get it heads up before the turn). Call and Call .Heres the turn (pot: T165).
Board: 10dKs9dAs
UTG bets again! Middle player calls (hes obviously on a long shot diamond flush draw, possibly with an overlay for a high STR8 or having the case King giving him a big pair/diamond.) and I just call fearing that UTG now has a made STR8 (QJ for a Broadway), but hoping the he has AK or AQ (comments?) (pot: T225).
I probably should have raised here, but I just knew that the UTG and middle players would continue calling and/or raising so I thought it was EV (this early in the tournament) and hoped for the board to pair. Even with the board, I didnt consider trip kings a foldable hand here (mistake?), I was getting about 10-1 for the call so odds wise I was probably getting the best of it to draw to the full house. I really had put UTG on AK at this point and Middle player on a flush draw. This early in the Tournament, I didnt want to hose off a big part of my stack trying to raise the drawing hand out (mistake should I have been jamming and capping all the way? Comments?)
The river brings the Jc one of the very worse cards possible for my hand!
Board: 10dKs9dAsJc
UTG bets, middle player folds and I make the T20 crying call (against the T245 pot, 11-1 odds for the call) and pay off his 87o (red), he had made the idiot end Jack high STR8!
I guess I could have dumped the Kings here with all the STR8 possibilities, but the pot was large and I didnt want to make a mistake and fold to AK (if thats what UTG had, and based on his betting I had put him on a big pair or AK, not a STR8 draw!) .
Well Ive had worse bad beats, but the betting pattern for the UTG player reminded me of a $3-6 live game player or someone that just knew that the STR8 would hit and that I would miss my FH! Or was his bet on the turn a semi-bluff (I didnt put him on Aces)? How could he possibly call in a raised pot pre-flop with 87o and then bet the draw on the flop (semi-bluff?) and call a raise from an obvious big pair (me)!
Based on a few hands previous to this one, I dont think he would have folded the open end STR8 draw on the flop or the turn for another raise so I guess I was doomed even if I continued to raise. BTW I had put the middle position player on a diamond flush draw (why did he call pre-flop with all the betting? Possibly he had the Kd or Ad in his hand).
Here again, I think that the UTG player was playing in a suspicious manner. Could he have known what cards were coming? Or was he playing in an optimal manner for the early rounds in a low limit tournament (comments)?
I sure wish wed have the big one (earthquake) on the Meridian Fault and have Chattanooga slide 4 hours (drive time) closer to Tunica. At least then I could look an idiot like this one in the eyes and be semi-sure he was not playing with advance knowledge of the cards or the outcome of the hand (from hacking the Delta site). However, if he was just drawing to the idiot end of a STR8 and betting crazy, then hes exactly the type of player Id like to have paying off my trip Kings when he misses!
Again, online poker just sucks! There are just too many unknowns, IMHO.
Comments? Am I all screwed up? Is this just another bad beat story?
I know, read S&M, buy a tournament book, cap the betting pre-flop with Kings, etc. (flames be nice)
LOL,
Mike R. TheKiller Still stuck in the middle of The Poker Wasteland Chattanooga, TN
I've certainly seen people play looser than that. The problem is that your fear of cheating is affecting your play and your judgement. Whether the cheating is real or not, the fact that you fear it means you shouldn't be in the game (OK it was a freeroll but hopefully you see my point).
After a lot of recent discussion of on-line gambling I am reminded of Homer's telephone call in The Simpsons : "Hello Vegas - Gimme 100 bucks on red - D'OH !!!!! - OK I'll send you a cheque". I can't think of a more succint summation of the inherent risks.
Andy.
Andy,
Point well taken, I hadn't thought about the "Fear Factor" impacting my judgment, but of course you are right!
I remember reading some advice from a poker writer (Mike Caro?) concerning the same thing and his advice was to cash out because the "Fear Factor" will affect your judgment and prevent optimal play.
Thanks!
Mike R.
TheKiller - Pokerless in Chattanooga, TN
Final table NL tourney three of us left, It had been three handed for about 40 minutes. Blinds are 2500/5000. Button has about T20,000. SB has about 15,000, I'm in the BB with 13000. Button folds, SB makes it 12,500 to go, I look down at A9 suited and move all in.
I thought this was the correct play. THe guy had been raising almost every hand with as little as 48o, however this was a larger raise than most, I felt he was getting impatient and making a move. (he ended up having AJo and I ended up finishing in 3rd.
Was this the correct play? I felt it was at the time but after thinking about it for a day I'm not sure.
If you knew precisely that he had exactly A-J offsuit, you would be only a little worse than 2-1 dog to win. Given that you put him on a variety of hands much worse, you may have been as much as 2-1 favorite. When down to 3-handed, a suited Ace is a pretty big hand. With the blinds costing you 1/2 your stack on the next orbit, I don't see how you can fault your play here. You either read your man wrong or simply ran into the wrong hand, but based on your read, the play was good.
On thing to note is that, whether intentionally or not, your opponent has made a smart play. If you have been raising a lot it is important to raise when you have a big hand as well (and AJ is massive three-handed), this is actually a better way to trap someone with a hand like A9 than check-calling which looks suspicious.
Andy.
You played OK.The blinds were very big for the chips stacks??? I had a similar situation. I'm in the SB with Ad.5d (short stack 5 handed)and everyone folds to the button who puts 30% ($5000)of his stack in. I re-raise all-in for a total of $10,500. We get heads-up and he rolls over QJo and catches a Q on the river.He had also been stealing a lot, but I was only a very small favourite preflop.
Your all in play was good under the circumstances.
Can't be 2nd guessing your self like that - most tournament players would have done the same thing in the same circumstances.
Thank you all posters. ALL your replies make great reading and some of the comments will appear in CARDS Poker Magazine (Australia)-Feb.15 issue (checks are in the mail). I expect some major discussion down under on the topic of having "some tournaments designed so weaker players(the major donators) have a better chance to win". Crown Casino in Melbourne is thinking about the concept for its low buyin tourneys. Once I get more feed back I'll re-post on 2+2! All the best Dazzler
one thing else Dazzler, is that if you make the tournaments too fast the good players wont get in and thats a reason many bad players play. they want to get a chance to play with the big boys. plus the big boys will whine and complain and deride the tournaments and the players in general will believe these better players and all will suffer. overall i think having a slow start so many can last awhile then step it up so the games proceed then slow it down on the end so those that are left can get some play in. but this gets confusing to the masses so its hard to implement.
The tourneys I'm talking about would be LOW buyin(NO rebuys/add-ons), and only a few each year. Just to give weaker players (who build up ALL tourney prize pools) a chance of getting first. As for the BIG BOYS, I think many of the weaker players are sick of them winning, they only make up about 10% of the field (and wouldn't be missed) and the "Big Boys" are the BIGGEST whingers and whiners in any tournament. I think naming it up front.."The lady Luck Tournament" (crap-shot) will be the best and honest way to go. During 2000 I'll have about half of the tourneys in my poker club as low buyin crap shots, as my players would sooner get into a $10-$20 cash game, after the tourney.
obviously this was what you had in mind all along so why bust everybodys balls who went to the trouble of answering your post
Get real padraig! I'm always very interested in other opinions, different than mine. Changes happen in the poker world, often quickly and sometimes never at all.The opinions of others (2+2 posters)were great. I thank you all (the ones who can write more than one line that is). Although I have used some of your comments in an article for publication, YOUR THOUGHTS will be looked at by poker managers/casino operators who make changes and improve poker tournaments, So you all have contributed something constuctive to the discussion, which I feel is important.
I am playing low bye-in texas holdem NL tournaments and I am doing well, when my bankroll gets higher I always spend this on bigger tournaments. I think it is good to play at higher levels to develop my skills but this ambition knocks me down time after time. Does anyone have some thougts about how much a developing poker player with high ambitions should spend on games that is above his limits?
Since April 99 I have been playing many Big tournaments in Nevada, California and Arizona. It has made me a much better tournament player - playing with the top players - I can't comment on bank role size for tournaments but you shouldn't ever put your self in financial difficulty because of poker.
I wish you success.
IF YOU DON'T PLAY, YOU CAN'T WIN. IF YOU LOSE YOUR BANKROLL, YOU CAN'T PLAY!!!!!
Please advise:
no limit hold em first round is 5-10 with two $5 blinds 20 min rounds throughout after 5-10, then 10-20, 15-30, 25-50 etc....
$40 buy-in gets you $300
anytime you are below $300 during first 3 rounds only you can rebuy for $30 real dollars and get another $300 in tourney money. If you go bust you can do a double re-buy for $60 and get $600.
After first 3 rounds during the break and race for greens you can do a $30 add-on for $300 as long as you are below the $300 amount in tourney chips.
Any advise as to buy in and play strategies would be great.
I will post how I did during my first attempt after I hear back about this post.
Thanks to
In tourneys like this I add on only if I am under $3000 in T chips. With rebuy tournaments the play is 180 degrees different after the rebuy period - during the rebuy period it is loose and wild. I like to play tight here and take advantage of the loose play. After the bebuy period is over I loosen up and use my tight table image to score some more. With any decent run of cards I expect to be in final table position when down to 2 tables.
I wish you success.
Has anyone attempted to quantitatively analyze the value of tournament chips as a function of stack size?
Final table deal-making usually gives greater value to each chip in a small stack. On the other hand, the need to "take a stand" with a small stack means playing worse hands than you would play if stack size were not a consideration. This makes sense only if each small-stack chip has less value.
Addressing this question quantitatively seems to require either a probability-of-ruin analysis or a complex simulation. Has anyone ever tried either? Is there another way to approach this mathematically?
I played recently in a non-rebuy NL tourney and thought I'd post a few hands. The blinds start at 1/2 and increase every 15 minutes. Starting chip count is 50. There were 49 entrants (total chip count of 2450).
First Hand, I'm in the BB and pick up pocket aces. Third to act moves all in (why he was trying to steal the blinds is beyond me, or maybe he was hoping to double up fast). He has pocket kings and I immediately double up. So far so good.
I double up again with A/K when an ace flops and someone calls my all-in bet.
SB I find K/J suited. Blinds are at 8/16. Folded around to me and I decide to double the BB by making it 20 more to go (I hold about 300, he holds about 120). What do people think of the steal move? He re-raises me another 20 and I mull it over and call. Thoughts?
Flop comes 10/Q/7 rainbow. I check, he checks. Turn is a 9 and I move all in with my straight. He calls with A/Q and the river doesn't help him. Whoo-whoo -- there are about 15 players left and I have 1/5 of the chips. Something I've noticed, people in this tourney tended to give too many free-cards on a slow-play. If you've got a great hand, get your chips in and win the pot.
Down to the final table. The blinds are now 15/30 and I have about 1/5 of the chips. There is one other big stack with about 700 and then the rest have 200 or less. Second hand, in seat 9 I pick up pocket aces. Three players call 30 ahead of me, seat nine starts to call (out of turn) when I move all-in. 3 players end up calling and I win a 400 pot. Kinda nervous moving all-in when I expected to have so many callers.
Self-Destruct Mode now kicks in. So far I'm chip-leader and have only played the above hands. In the BB (blinds now 30/60) I pick up A/J. Two callers, no raise, the flop is A/J/7. I move all-in and get one caller (he has about 150 chips to my 800). He turns over J/10 and gets a perfect K/Q to make the straight. Make that 650 in chips. My chips went in when I was ahead, but I got caught.
BB again with 5/6 off-suit. No-raise, 3 callers, flop is A/4/7. Turn is an 8 giving me the nut straight. I move all-in and get called by A/7. River is a 7 giving him a full-house and 300 of my chips. My chips went in when I was ahead and I got caught again...uh-oh.
I steal the blinds once with K/Q suited to make it easier to survive another round. Down to 5 players and I have the 3rd biggest stack (350). UTG I pick up A/K of clubs and move all-in. Fold to the small-blind who calls and turns over A/A. Game over. This close to the money should I have played A/K this aggressively?
I may have palyed the same hands the same way you played them. You and your opponents seem all to eager to bet all your chips. Seems like way to many "all ins" but that might be just me. Seems like you were ahead when you made your plays and when you lost you got out drawn - you keep doing that you will win alot of tournaments.
Except for the final A-K play, I like your play. You can get away from A-K if you don't make your move out of position with that hand. Read TJ's book.
Can you clarify this one for me Earl ? With Stack 350, blinds at least 30-60, a pot-size raise commits you anyway doesn't it ? I'd move all-in with AK from any position in an unraised pot. If I'm missing something, please let me know.
Andy.
He doesn't have to raise with A-K under the gun. True, with 5 players, the temptation would be strong, but the point is, you don't have to lose your whole stack on what is often not even a 50-50 proposition. Even against something like a pair of 6s, the hand is no favorite. His call from under the gun when the whole table has been firing away would send off warning signals to the other players. Someone who made a move at an early position caller in this situation would likely have a pretty good hand. I believe he said the blinds were 15-30, and he's very likely going to face a raise from the small blind. At that point, he can make a decision about how to handle the hand and whether or not he wants to play it for all his chips. If A-A slowplays, and A-K misses the flop, then he can surrender and live another day -- if the case Ace or a King hits on the flop, then it is just too bad because there's no way to get away from the hand.
Quite often in a NL tourney, there are situations where you evaluate your hand as being even money before the flop. The key question becomes, not "how good is the hand I hold?" but "do I want to flip a coin for all of my chips?" Just because he ran into A-A (making him a much bigger dog), that was still the key question.
Earl,
First, I think moving all in with this hand just to snag the blinds is acceptable. Second, moving all in with this holding isn't bad even when you are called, because the calling opponent will seldom have you dominated with AA or KK. Third, and IMO, most importantly, opponents have to start putting your all in moves on a broader spectrum of possible holdings.
This gets you more calls when you do hold "monsters" and would like the action. In the above case, it turned out poorly, but, IMO, you'll make more than you lose by doing this. I've gotten away from AK in the past, but usually it was because I faced a predictable opponent.
John, I agree totally that it is "acceptable", I'm simply no longer of the opinion that it is automatic. Playing a big Ace in a short-handed spot is often the best play available. Yet as I noted, it's not "domination" that is my concern in these NL situations, it's whether or not I want to play for all of my chips in what is often a 50-50 situation. A more refined play from up front with a stack still in contention might be to wait to see what sort of moves come from behind you before making a decision as to whether to commit.
Further, you give your opponent another opportunity on the flop to make a mistake. Quite often an opponent will be inclined to call your all-in bet before the flop but will back away if put to the test after the flop.
If he had been very short-stacked, it would be a no-brainer to move all-in -- it's those mid-sized stacks that create the most decisions.
I like your play as well. I might be tempted to raise with AJ out of the big blind against just 2 callers but could easily be convinced that a check is OK here, depends on what you feel at the time.
It's interesting to note how your opponents' mistakes helped you. Going all-in with Kings when the blinds are small can only have two results against good players - win the blinds or lose it all, as happened. Checking A-Q to a Q-high flop got your opponent knocked out - and I bet he cursed his luck all the way to the door :-). The guy with two pair A-7 on the flop was extremely lucky to get away with giving you a free card as well.
Better luck next time,
Andy.
yesterday playing in a omaha tourney high low very short stacked with 1500 left blinds 500 1000 under the gun played A5d kjc one player plus small & big called flop came 6h 9s 10s I went all in player to my left called big & small folded rag rag came up I lost to a pair of 10,s. should I have waited one more hand? I think I played this ok. thanks
I'm no O8 expert but all you need here is a better than average hand and that looks a lot better than average to me. You should raise here rather than call though. It's fine to play this hand but the fact that you even had to think about it suggests you may be playing too tight in this kind of spot.
Andy.
When YOU are short stacked you must gamble otherwise you have NO hope of getting into the money. I liked you hand. Most of the cards worked well together.
I played in a tournament last night and I want some input on a hand that I got knocked out on. The hand goes like this: I am in the big blind with 9d5d. The limits were 1k-2k. There are three of us in the hand. No raise before the flop. Flop comes 27A-all diamonds. I love my hand. I come out betting because my flush is weak. The other two players called. The turn comes A-Spades. I bet player behind me raises and the last player calls. I reraise and he reraises and puts me all in. The last player folds on the last raise. I turn my hand over and he shows his. He has A-clubs and K-diamonds. River card comes the 7-spades. I am out of the tournament.
During the entire tournament I was playing mistake free poker and had excellent chip position. Did I just suffer a bad beat or should I have dumped the hand when he raised? The only reason I reraised because I know he didn't have the flush and I put him on A-rag when the second ace hit. He is not a very skilled player but very lucky. Was he lucky or did he just make the right move. If he would have lost this hand he would have been down just to 1k. All comments would be helpful.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Badger,
When you are right, you are right!
Vince.
x
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
You did not say how big your bet was post flop, but it sounds like it was not big enough (first mistake). Second mistake was reraising on the turn. You should not have even called the raise, as it was already cold called by another player, and you have a very weak flush that can be beat by a better flush and a full house that is already made (22, 77, A7) - not to mention someone could have AA - which happened to me three days ago when I held threes full of aces.
I like your bet in the flop. I still like your bet in the turn, but obviously if somebody raise you, you shouldn't reraise. There are many hands that beat you. A7,A2,77,22, AA(not likely) and a bigger flush. If you just call the raise, then with the 7 in the river you can save your last chips. Remember, never give up.
Dice, "life is a bitch then you die" are words I live by - you played the hand OK - you didn't say if it was NL if it was you should have pushed in on the flop you are committed here and just got out drawn.
Tournament poker is frustrating and I have found out that 2nd guessing myself is not productive.
I do disagree with the comment: He is not a very skilled player but very lucky. I can't believe a guy like this didn't raise pre flop with AK and save you a lot of agro.
The tournament was limit hold'em. When I said the individual was not very skilled I meant that he hadn't been playing poker very long or he was not very good at hold'em. I watched how he played all his hands and it looked like he had A-rag. When he had the goods he bet, when he didn't he folded. He played very straight forward. When the second Ace it the turn I put him on three Aces and the river paired the board. I have to agree with your motto-"Life is a bitch and then you die"
Dice
Does anyone know where I can find a satellite tournament schedule for the southern US area?
Would like opinions on play of the following hand from Harrah's $1,000 NL event.
Second hand of tourney, blinds 5-15. Pot raised to 35 from 2nd position by solid-aggressive local player. He has 3 very aggressive WSOP winners on his immediate left. Everyone folds to me. I flat call with pocket jacks on the button. The pot is heads up.
Flop is qd,jd,3d. He bets 15 (the mininum possible). It feels somewhat like a trap and I think I can tell form his play on 4th whether he QQ or Ad,Kd, or Ad,10d, which are the only hands to realistically fear at this point. (This player would not have raised with 2 middle or small diamonds in this position).
Fourth street is 10c. He checks. Even though any AK now beats me, HE has to be concerned about me having a small flush if AK is what he has. I decide to test him with a 75 bet he calls.
Fifth street is 8s. He checks.
What would you do and how do you feel about the play of the hand to this point? Will post the actual hand & result in a day or so in order not to bias the thinking of anyone who might be interested.
I think it sounds fairly well played and analyzed. I think I would have probably raised him to 45 or so after the flop - to get information (and more money in the pot). If he moves in after that, I think I would call - note QQ is really the only hand that cripples you. I put the guy on KK or AA, before the flop, with the small raise, looking for a reraise to come over the top of. AK would warrant a bigger raise than to 35. Once he calls your 75, I put him on AdAx. I think if you had raised after the flop, you should just check on the river and not risk any more - as now you will have taken 155 from the guy (including the 45 bet after the flop). However, I would be tempted to take another 75 from the guy on the river if he has an overpair. If he comes over the top of you, you will have to fold - as he was slowplaying AdKd
Solid aggressive local player - if he has any of the hands your worried about he has been misclassified.
I put him on QJ AQ AJ AA KK TT or a med pair - since you didn;t include chip counts I'll assume you both have T$1000 - Preflop I would have made it $100 - on the flop I raise his $15 to $215. Turn he checks I am all in. Screw it. You should have taken control here with a set in a heads up match up. If he has a pair of 9's your out of luck. Can he call an all in bet on the turn??? If he is a solid player I don;t see how he can.
Results please.
Rounder,
If the guy is solid I can't see him with QJ, A,Q, or AJ at this stage of the tournament. A,A is highly unlikely with such a weak bet. If he called I would be more inclined to think he has A,A. With K,K I believe he bets 100 or more preflop. T,T is a candidate with this raise but $60 may be a better raise here with T,T. I really can't think of any hand where a raise to $30 is a good bet. From that perspective I must agree with you that the guy is not a solid no limit holdem player.
Given that I couldn't put him on a specific hand with this raise I call with J,J on the button and see what happens. I don't raise to 100 because I belive a weak player will call. He probably has at least 2 over cards and I want to see the flop as cheap as I can. I know this sounds strange but early in a tournament where you are not fighting for a lot of money I don't want anyone calling my J,J. Besides, if he has a big hand he has now given me the opportunity to bust him for a minimun investment. I call preflop. If I don't like the flop I get out quickly.
The flop is dangerous but I do agree that I am most likely ahead. With a $15 bet I now think the guy has A,K, K,Q, A,Q, A,J or even A,T with a big diamond and is trying to buy this cheaply. But why take the chance and raise. It costs you only $15 to see the turn. Why raise the flop and possibly be faced with him coming over the top and forcing you to make a tough decision. I just call.
An all in bet here makes no sense to me. I am not putting all my chips in the pot to win $85. If as you said you raised to $215 on the flop and was called I would now be so confused by his call that I would not put another dime in this pot without more info. I call the turn.
I still check the river.
Vince.
BTW - When I am in a very aggressive mood I play as you described.
I like the call preflop.
I like the call on the flop. (With caution and awareness)
I don't like the board at all on the turn. Checking is an option but gives the opponent the right to first bluff on the river. What is your play if you check and he bets 200 on the River. There is only $85 in the pot on the turn. Betting 75 to try and pick it up seems like a reasonable play. But he calls! Your heart must be in your hands when he throws in the $75. What could he call with. Unless he is the worst NL player in the room he has a made had or 3 Q' at the least. I check the turn!
I check the river. "Minimum damage" is sometimes the best play even if it seems weak. This is not limit poker. NL is a game of traps and bluffs and big bets. You can't do anything in this situation. Even a call on the river for a medium size bet is a mistake.
Vince.
I agree Vince that the way the hand was played a call is the only play on the river. I am a bit more aggressive here but I want to know what I am up against. See my post and comment please.
Recap, conclusion, & post-mortem--
Recap:
>2nd hand of tourney, 5-15 blinds. 2nd to act raises to 35. I call with JJ on button. It's heads up (per Rounder's point, he has T1000, I have T995).
>Flop Qd,Jd,3d. He bets 15, I call.
>Turn 10c. He checks, I bet 75, he calls.
>River 8s. He checks.
Conclusion:
>I check and he shows 9s,9c. He made a straight on the river to win.
Post mortem:
I like my preflop call. JJ isn't a reraising hand against an early position raiser early in the tournament. I also think checking at the end was correct, since at that point I couldn't beat anything that he could call with.
The 75 bet on 4th seems OK. I was surprised then and now that he called. At the time I thought maybe he had the Ad, but he wasn't getting proper odds for that since he knows I'm a tight player and wouldn't put anything more into the pot if a diamond came on the river. The straight draw he actually picked up seems pretty useless.
My call of the 15 on the flop was bad. I should have raised 100 or so. He could have called only with the A-high flush or QQ. The chances of his having one of those two hands was less than 50-50, and if he had had one of them, I would only have lost the 100, since I would have been done with the hand at that point, unless the board paired on the river.
I think I was overly concerned about getting trapped when he bet the 15 on the flop.I wasn't going to play a big pot with that flop, but not putting in 100 or 150 was just too cautious and tight.
I apologize upfront for any info I may leave out. This is my first post here and I'll do my best to explain the hand in detail.
3 tables left, 9 people at our table. I'm in big blind. Blinds are 300 and 500. Guy to my immediate left raises all in for 800. Fold, fold, fold, raise by tricky aggresive player with T5000. Everyone else folds to me. I have pocket 9's and about T3300 left. (I have 3rd shortest stack at table.) I call his raise for T1000 more. It seemed clear to me he was isolating this player with his raise and I was pretty sure my pair had him beat. (I play with him quite frequently). Flop in 3,4,5 rainbow. I bet 500. He calls. (I know he raises me here with overpair, but he didn't). Turn a 4. I bet 1000. He hesitates, then calls. River a 2. Board reads 3-4-5-4-2 no flush. I'm pissed and check. He bets. At this point I'm pretty sure that even if he didn't have an ace that he would have bet becaus he knows that I'm capable of laying down this hand. (Especially because I have only T800 chips left). The guy who is all in stands up and mucks his cards. I think that more than 60% of the time this guy will raise preflop to an all in with a hand as bad as KJoff. I end up calling. He shows AJ off.
My question: Did I think this through enough? Is there a level (I'm sure there is) that I did not consider? I really like the hand analysis from many of the posters on this site and would appreciate your thoughts.
Thanks.
MDJ
You should have folded preflop. 9,9 is not a hand you want to call even one raise with let alone two. Plus when you are in a tournmane against a bigger stack you must be doubly cautious. You put yourself in a situation where you had to call abet knowing you were beat.
Vince.
I understand your argument about folding. However, with this particular reraiser, I know him well and believed that I had the best of him. (Which I actually did at that point). At the time he was playing pretty fast. (He had a pretty small stack relative to the table as well). I believed that for me this was a moment to take a shot at him. I think I did make a mistake though if I wanted to take a shot and believed I did really have him...I needed to reraise. I know alot of people won't like the play of a reraise, but like I said I was 75% sure he was playing too fast. And I was sure of it when he didn't raise me after I bet the flop.
Don't get me wrong. I understand the value of letting it go a picking a better spot. I have folded similar hands many times in the past and will do so often in the future (especially with players I don't "know").
Thanks for the feedback.
MDJ
9,9 is not much of a favorite over A,J. Having the best of it in a tournament is different than a ring game. Besides you also had to beat the all in player. I put you behind given two opponents.
Vince.
If you really want to play 99 I think you should have just called the raise before the flop and made a large bet on the flop (to give him poor odds with overcards and gutshot straight) since it was so favorable to you. When you raise before the flop again, it doesn't leave you enough chips to effectively protect your hand on the flop and later and that should be important since you have a very vulnerable holding.
Sounds like you analyzed the hand just right - the big A was a hand that would make sense for a lot of players to play the way this was played.
I am not sure I want to call two players her with 99. I need a good board to win this any cards over 9 spells disaster.
This guy has 10 outs X 2 to make a hand - you summed it up to the river and had the best of it to that point. I don't know if I would have put all my chips in on the river though - all he needes is an A unless he is a total idiot he had to have something to go this far. In a ring game I call here but a tournament I probably muck to the straight - Chances are good he has some kind of A maybe A small suited - I take my chances with T$800 - but like I said I may not be there anyway.
This is the situation: I hold 2825 in chips. There are about 50 of 94 original players. Everyone started with 1000 in chips. There were no rebuys. I am in middle position and pick up AQo. The blinds are 75-150. UTG calls 150. I raise to 600. All fold to small blind who calls 600 (he has slightly more than me in chips). BB and UTG fold. Flop comes QsTd9d. Check to me I bet 1500, leaving me with 725. After fiddling and inquiring about my remaining stack the SB finally calls. Turn is 7s. Check to me I bet remaining 725. River is Kc. Small blind player held AKd to win the pot.
The small blind will call my bet on the flop no matter what I can bet because he figures to have around 15 outs against my hand and 12 against a pair of aces. My main question is, should I check the flop so I can make a large bet on the turn? If a scare card comes on the turn I can fold and still have a decent stack. That way a drawing hand won't have correct odds to call. Comments?
Tough play on the flop. An opponent with exactly the Ad,Kd has 15 outs - 9 diamonds - 3 kings - 3 jacks. 45 cards left makes a call by him pretty close to even money. I move all in. Let him make the decision. If he calls you are getting good value for your bet. He is unlikely to have K,K or A,A. I believe he moves all in before the flop with those hands. If he has Q,Q your a gone goose but that's very unlikely. J,J gives him only 10 outs with maybe a backdoor flush draw but would be a bad call by him. However, J,J is as likely as A,K, mabe even more so, for a hand for him to have. It is the hand you must protect against with your all in move.
Vince.
I'm fairly new to NL hold 'em so I'm not used to protecting my flop hand. In limit you'd bet and that would be that. When I bet 1500 I was thinking that providing 2:1 odds would be good enough but that's because I didn't think about the possible hands he might have.
However, wouldn't it be better to make a large bet on the flop and then bet again on the turn (like I did) in order to be able to get away from the hand if a scare card comes but make him pay the full amount if one doesn't come? Let us say that he had JJ with 10 outs to a better hand. If he calls the 1500 he's getting 2:1 on the flop but in reality he has to deal with negative implied odds because of the bet I will make on the turn if he doesn't improve. If he improves, I may fold and save myself 725 (if the Jd came I'd fold for sure). Comments?
You are thinking just like a limit player. Everytime I go all in before the River I wish i had another bet to try and drive the other fellow out with. It's a dilemma all limit players face. Sometimes the situation warrants pushing all in. I believe that was the case with your hand. Just the way I see it. Maybe we can get an opinion from some of the NL heavies like Big John or Badger.
Vince.
Seems to me an all in bet on the flop is uncallable you are committed to this pot anyway - you have to move in here with top pair and top kicker. Win it there!
Your Idea of pot odds in this NL situation is not as valid as in a ring game. Last thing on this guys mind is "correct odds" he loses he is not or crippled.
I think your ouny "correct play" here is all in on the flop since you can't put him on AA or KK you are ahead for sure and a call would be a mistake by your opponent.
Robin,
If I'm going to go broke with this hand, and I would have, it would be on the flop, when I shove it all in and get called. By putting it all in on the flop, you can get some players to fold hands that would have beaten you. Some percentage of the equity in that all in bet is to get people to fold and let you win a sizeable pot without it being contested further. There is T1575 in the pot pre-flop. You definitely want to put your entire stack in on the flop. Anything less than all in invites an opponent to call you.
With the draw that your opponent flopped, you were going to get called regardless of how much you bet. Just remember that most of the time you get in this situation, your opponent won't have such a clearcut call and you will have a good chance to win the pot right on the flop. Once the pot contains decent money, winning it becomes the primary goal.
One other thing to consider would be how much $ you have left if you don't move in but do make a pot size bet, as you did. you were left making a limit size bet on the turn and offering your opponent really positive odds at that point. If you push in with 2275 you make it T3975-2275 and that puts him in negative ev situation, but the 1500 bet gives him good odds if there is a chance you will check the turn.
If a scare card did come on the turn such as a diamond, it would be tough not to call with your last chips because now the odds you are getting from the pot would be 6+ to 1.
You have to think NL not limit. This is a push in situation if you can't do it here you shouldn't be playing NL. EV and pot odds take a back seat to winning here at all costs and the cost is all your chips.
I don't think the call is a clear cut one eigther. Puting a man for a decision for all his chips makes the call a hard one.
Wally,
I disagree about it being a hard call in this situation. The AKd has so many outs that he would have to call even if he knew the bettor had AQo.He has 3K's, 9d's and 3J's other than the Jd. With the money the pot is laying him for the call, he can't refuse it.
If I had been the AKd, I'd have moved all in preflop, and probably won without having to see the flop. Being aggressive in NL is much more advantageous than in limit,IMO. In NL, the adversaries know that a single wrong move can be fatal to their tournament chances.
Big John,
I think we both agree the correct move is to push all in with the AQ on the flop and maybe we disagree on the call being a no brainer, I am 50/50 on a call here since the flop didn't hit me hard and I can't beat 22 right now with just 2 cards to come I may not take the chance there are a lot of cards that beat me.
I'd have been all in with both the AK and AQ so maybe I am to aggressive but I like putting the opposition to a decision for all their chips.
I wonder why AKd wouldn't bet all in on the flop and force me to make the tough call. At worst he has 12 outs against AA or KK. With the possibility of a straight, two pair, and a flush draw I think it would be tough to call even with AA, not to mention AQo.
I'd like to expand upon my idea of betting less than all in on the flop. Assume that 1500 is in the pot on the flop (600 from small blind and me, 150 from bb and utg caller) and I hold another 2275 like in the actual case. With a minimum of 12 outs (against AA) AKd will always correctly call if I bet all in. However, if the number of outs is less (JJ giving 10 outs) a call of all from AQo is still correct (1.5:1 odds of a win and getting 1.65:1 on the bet) but a call of 750 would be incorrect (getting 3:1 odds on the bet but only 3.5:1 to make with one card) because the AQo may fold on turn if one of your outs falls but bet another 1525 if one doesn't, forcing the JJ to fold because he's only getting 2.97:1 odds on the bet with one card to come. Notice though that a check raise of the 750 bet is correct because JJ is getting the correct odds with two cards to come. The difference is that with a mere call of the 750 bet JJ isn't guaranteed 2 cards and isn't getting correct odds on either the flop or turn with one card to come. This may present the interesting possibility of making an all in bet (not check-raise) on the flop with JJ (or AKd) even if you knew you were beat by AQo.
Hope no one is confused. Of course, the above probably doesn't apply in the game (except the idea of betting all in on the flop with AKd or JJ) because no one knows for sure what the other player has.
Forget all the math it is meaningless here.
It is a survival call - period.
You push in on the flop and there is a 50/50 chance you get a fold - eigther way you are commited the the pot double up or go home. It is the way NL is played.
Interesting - last week I was at the last 2 tables in a 15K event. I had T$7500 in chips left UTG With A8s and pushed in. it was checked to BB who had T8k left he called with J7o - flopped two pair and I was history.
How does he make that call. Blinds were $800/$1500.
Limit holdem, no rebuy, 30K guarantee, 28 original tables, down to 5. I'm at a table that is the designated last of two tables so people at this table have alot of money compared to other tables because alot of people have come through this table and lost thier chips. The players look/appear tight aggresive. (I've only been at this table for fifteen minutes). Blinds are 300 and 500.I raise UTG with QQ's. I have 1600 and am second short stack at the table. Fold, fold, reraise to 1500 from guy with stack of 2500. Everyone else folds except SB who now calls for an additional 1200 and has about 5000 in chips. I call time. The guy one off the button is staring at me and has a mountain of chips (more than 8 or 9 thousand). He says quietly: "Save your money". At this point it cost me 500 more to call leaving me with one chip if the flop kills me. Or I raise for another 1 chip and go all in. If I lay it down. I'll have 800 after the blinds go by to try to pick up another hand on the next round. But then I'll be really short stacked, forced to play one of the next eight hands with less than a full raise.
Question: Can I realistically even consider laying the hand down? About ten minutes earlier I found myself with AQoff in the small blind facing a raise from two before the button and a reraise from the button. I ended up laying it down adn would have lost to AK when the flop came with an ace and then two blanks.
Am I overthinking the situation? Is this just an automatic reraise for an additional chip?
Comments are greatly appreciated. I find that my understanding of the game is tremendously improved by the posts in these forums. I'll post what I did and the result tommorow. Thanks in advance for your comments.
MDJ
Call and tell that fellow it's your money. Thank you very much.
vince
No way you should lay down this hand. Of course it's an automatic call, saving your last 1100 in case an ace came on the flop (this is because of the guy on the SB), otherwise you should go all-in in the flop. You should not be afraid of the reraise to 1500, maybe this guy has TT(or even a little pair) and wanted to play heads-up with you. If nobody calls the reraise, then I would raise to 2000, but since the SB call the 1500, then I'd only call to see the flop. But, I think most of the time Im going all in with QQ
I would have reraised even after the cold call. This is the time to maximize preflop. When you call only, you are going to be fully committed later if no ace or K flops anyway but might not get paid off. If an ace flops, you might lay down to an inferior hand that bets out. QQ isn't a bad hand to commit to in this situation IMO. To stay in the tournament he is going to have to win the next hand he plays anyway, and this offers him the maximum payoff if he does. I reraise and go for it!
I think you're right Big John, since the very next hand he's gonna be the big blind, so, no doubt he should reraise and go almost all-in before the flop. But if he is on late position (said 1 off the button, raiser on the button and SB calls), I still think the play is just to call.
No way you lay this down. Given the fact that you have no chips left, the big stack's raise to 1500 means nothing. If I'm in late position and I'm the chip leader (or I have a big stack) and I'm playing the hand, I'm raising - and depending on how tight the blinds are and how they are stacked I'll make a move here with almost anything. As for the "save your money" comment, please.... Anyhow, either you're beat or you're not. Thanks to the small blind, you are getting 8 to 1 on your call and you could still suck out on even if you are beat. Finally, you should raise with your last chip. Although it will put you all in, the raise will give the big stack a chance to complete the bet which, although doubtful, might make the small blind fold.
After re-reading the original post a few times, I think I may have misunderstood the chip counts as described. The advise given in my post above assumes that the poster had $1600 BEFORE his UTG raise. Of course that assumtion makes the question much easier to answer. No wonder a doofus like me could answer it so easily ;-)
300-600 betting. 3rd st #3 makes it 300 #4 calls #5 calls #8/me calls. 4th st #5 xx/66 bets 600, I call all in, #3 calls, #4 calls all in. 5th st #5 xx/66x checks, #3 xx/sxs bets 600. #5 blows up at him for betting with two people all in. # 3 xx/sxss catches another spade on 6th st and checks. #3 wins hand with a flush.
My question is did he do something wrong by betting into her pair of 6's with two players all in?? My logic would say to bet all the way even if your head to head with a player you think you have beat?? This woman was so adamant about him betting like he was commiting a crime. Any light on this subject would be appreciated.
paul
Paul,
I hear this quite a lot. Now, you can debate the strategic value of 3's bet till the cows come home but, as I see it, it's his money and he's not doing anything unethical. Quite the reverse, if 3 and 5 gave each other a look and checked it all the way I would consider that to be unethical (although there are a lot worse things to do). I've heard a player say "we check it all the way" which nobody seemed to mind and, this one is scarcely believable but it happened, on one occasion I was dealing and someone who was not in the pot announced "They check it all the way". Typically, #5 will give it lots of spiel about "It's better for everybody if you check and knock them out so we reach the final and get paid". A quiet "everybody except the guy who's all in" might make the point. If I am in this spot, I am looking to win the tournament and not to make the final but I'm damned if I'm going to educate my opponents on this point. All the same, if this happens to you, my advice is to tell them to belt up as politely as you see fit :-).
Whether #3 should bet it, considering only his own interest, is tricky. In Limit, rather than Pot-Limit which is my game, I would guess a bet is more favourable as you need to extract those extra bets. I am considering avoiding this kind of pot, not because of any controversy, but because they often turn out multi-way like this one. In a multiway stud pot you need a hand with some drawing potential, but if you make your draw its very hard to get paid off in this kind of pot.
All comments welcome as, coincidentally, I was going to post on this general topic at some point.
Andy.
if knocking out the allin players puts you near or in the money it does indeed pay to chcek it out and give the two players with money a better chance to knock out the all ins. however if you have a good hand that may make you want to charge the other player and you do not need him to help protect you. betting a draw and knocking out a paired hand would be utterly stupid as the paired hand may be needed for your own benefit. since you called even though someone paired their doorcard maybe you should have considered going all in on 3rd st.
Ray and Andy,
Thanks I just thought it was weard that someone would dictate someone else's actions by verbally telling the other person that they were stupid to make that bet. Since I'm new to trmt play I didn't know how to feel about it.
your right I should of went all in on 3rd. I just went after a hand with 3Q's and lost to 3K's. That pretty much wiped me out except for about 400 because he was all in.
To be honest I wanted to slap her for doing such a thing. But being a peace freak I reconsidered. Plus $30 was enuf of an investment in this game I didn't want to bring on the lawyers!!!!
paul
In an effort to broaden my horizons I would like to learn the fundamentals of tournament play. I know 2+2 has a book out. What books do you guys recommend?
Jon,
The definitive tournament book has yet to be written. That is why no-one has posted yet :-). IMO, The Theory of Poker is still your best bet even though it doesn't reference tournaments at all. The chapters on Ante Size and Loose/Tight play are particularly helpful in terms of adjusting your play to the different stages. Get into a cycle of read, play, think, read, play, think.
Good luck,
Andy.
1 table satelite (10 handed) no limit, $170 buy in. Winner gets 3 $500 tournament chips and $100 cash. Down to 2. I have T$900 and chip leader T$5100, blinds are 100-200. He looks like a good player. He offers me $250 cash if I surrender. What do you do? Do you take the money or play?
Based on pure chip count you have 15% of the chips, and 15% of the prize is $240. In normal circumstances the small stack is worth a bit more than its % proportion, and with only 30 big blinds on the table, even more still. So no, I don't think he is offering enough. For me, the fact that he is making this offer confirms he is a smart player because it looks superficially attractive and a lot of weaker players would accept.
You also need to think about why you have entered the satellite - purely for money or for the tournament chips. If the latter, then even less reason to accept. Two hands from now you could easily have the lead. Play.
Andy.
Why is the short stack worth more than the percentage of total chips it represents? I would think that any confrontation between a big stack and a short stack would favor the big stack, with the edge increasing as the ratio widens. The short stack has less chance to survive a normal fluctuation in luck.
For example, even money bets on a coin toss until one player is bankrupt. Who would you rather back:
Player A: with 10 units, or Player B: with 40 units.
Thanks,
PRC
PRC,
In your coin toss example, player B is an exact 4/1 favourite. Poker is slightly different because a player going all-in has a slight advantage due to the blinds/antes. It is not a great advantage but it is there.
Andy.
Andy,
The all-in advantage doesn't apply in heads-up play. The edge comes from times that you go all-in, player 2 bets, player 3 folds, and you beat player 2 (but would have lost to player 3 if he stuck around).
In winner-take-all situations, your stack is worth it's percentage of the total chip count, no matter what the blinds are (assuming equally skilled players).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I am very new to tourneys and know I blew this but please give me your input. There are 5 players and 4 spots are paid. It's 100-200 and I am in fourth place, 250 ahead of the fifth man. The guy to my right is a lock for first and has to bring it in,(low card) I have jx,6x,3x, the guy to my left could lose second if there is a lot of betting and loses next player is the guy behind me in chips and the last guy is 3rd. I just can't see calling with my hand and fold right away. There's a call and the guy that was losing to me raises. The 3rd place guy folds and the lock calls as well as the guy to my left. Next card is a check by the lock and the guy to my left,a bet by the guy that I was ahead and the other players fold and he wins fourth. Was I to raise in that situation regardless of my hand or what, I feel like such as jerk and I guess rightfully so.....HELP!
Red,
If I understand your post correctly, you folded, the player with fewer chips than you went on to win the hand and you were the next player to be knocked out in a subsequent hand.
Your fold was _correct_ . Your hand was useless (assuming it was unsuited). Even with some marginal hands you should fold here hoping that the fifth player will bust out. Don't second-guess yourself on the basis of how a hand actually played out after your decision was made.
And another point, no one is _ever_ a lock to win a tournament until the fat lady sings.
Good luck,
Andy.
Are you saying that this is the last hand of the tournament ? That changes things entirely. Please let us know.
Andy.
Yes that was the last hand of the tournament. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
OK. Disregard my previous answer if you hadn't already :-). That makes things interesting. We really need chip counts for each player, and this is limit stud with the limit at 100-200, right ?
Basically this plays more like Jeopardy than poker. The player in last place seems to be doing the right thing, betting and raising the maximum to get all in ASAP. What the player in the lead is doing calling only he knows - ref. those interminable threads about folding Aces, this _is_ where you do it if you are uncatchable. For you, tough decision. The strength of your hand does come into play, and you have a real dog. You have to get into the other players' heads as much as you can, and you have to estimate how aware each player is. I would guess you should make the decision at the earliest opportunity and then go for it. The player in fifth, if he is aware, could have any hand at all. 5-way there are a stack of variables and you only have a minute to decide on the spot, so it's hard to give concrete advice.
If anyone regularly finds themselves in this spot I'd love to hear how their analysis goes in the short time they have available, as this is a theoretical possibility in the tournaments I play in. One thing, this could be the situation where position is more important than any other.
And finally, it could be worse - at least all the players aren't separately cutting deals with each other like in one situation I heard of :-)
Comments welcome,
Andy.
Can anyone tell me a good website or inform me where I can get information on high limit poker tournaments? I can't seem to find any current info on that stuff.
try cardplayer.com luck
15 dollar buy-in No-limit Hold 'em tournament. Three tables left, two get paid. I have about a third as many chips as the table leader (3,000 to 9,000) and I'm under the gun with pocket Kings. I bet 1500 (BB was 600) Fold, fold, then a guy raises all-in for 1600. Next player who has about 2500 in front of him calls the 1600. Another fold, then the big blind calls, leaving him with about 1,000 in front of him. Here's where I melt down: I re-raised all-in thinking that MAYBE I can get one of the two callers to fold, and even if I don't, I'm still probably the favorite with the second best hand possible. What happens next, of course, is predictable: both callers went all-in to call, the BB flopped a 7,9,10 giving him a straight with his 8-6 suited. The other hands were an AJ off-suit and KJ suited.
I'm not just posting this as a bad beat story, as I know I was a decent favorite before the flop, but my question is whether my raise made any sense at that point?
A good player won't fold for 1000 more in this spot, which doesn't mean no-one will ever fold but it's unlikely.
I think you should go all-in straight away. Surely you are pot-committed so it makes sense to bet the maximum which may reduce the field a little.
Andy.
Tourney last night NLHE, rebuys under starting chip size and add-on at break. Pay last 8, first around $1000. Got to last two tables with having had very poor cards and about T2500 out of 65000 total. Was in bottom 1/4 of my table. Chip leader good player with 8-10,000 and very aggressive at stealing blinds. After paying blinds I am down to 1450 and one position behind button with chip leader BB when I pick up AA. Checked around to me, I call as I want more than the blinds. Know I could have taken the blinds. Flop 6,6,9 no bets from blinds so I go all in at that point hoping he will defend. He does but had Q6o and won with trips. Told me to commit early and he would have thrown down. I knew that but wanted to get more money from him. Comments please. Is there a way to get money here when everyone passes to the blinds? Thanks for the replies. Dave
You don't say how big the blinds are and this is a big factor. All the same I prefer a standard raise, whether your standard is all-in at this point or pot-size or whatever. Given that you are in a steal position, a flat call looks suspicious anyway. It depends on your table image to an extent, but it is entirely possible that a raise (looks like a steal) might generate more action than a call (looks suspicious).
I raise, and if they all fold, forget about it and play the next hand. A trapping style is not good at this stage of a tournament. Sometimes when you're stealing a lot you can get a feel for when the table has had enough and someone's going to play back. Then you raise with the goods and it's really sweet when someone takes you on. I think if you are doing some thieving it's _very_ important to raise when you've got them as well. Comments welcome.
Andy.
Andy.
I want to play my first tournament at the L A poker classic. Holdem 300+30 rebuys first three rounds. How much money can I expect to pay? Do these touraments have add ons?
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
There is one thing to be said for the "wait and see" approach.
The correctness of whether or not to rebuy is often a function of factors of which you cannot be aware before the tournament starts, most usually the number of chips you have at the addon time. Rebuys and double rebuys are often a function of who is doubling up early, the easy or the tough players. These calculations are enhanced by knowing your opponents well, which is something that might not be a given at one's first tournament, but the lack of complete information w.r.t. these calculations does not preclude at least attempting to make them. It may be that Badger is advocating this as well, as in the following sentence he recommends "be prepared to take all the buyins you can," which is a pretty safe statement to agree with. You should never play in a rebuy tournament unless you're capitalized, willing, and tiltfree enough to take that nth rebuy. The best EV opportunity you get is the chance to buy in to a tournament with an overlay(granted with your dead money, but it's sunk cost) after you've gone busted.
However, being prepared to do so does not obligate one to sink the extra $ in willynilly the decision-making environment. For example, every week I play in a NL rebuy tournament, and I am always prepared to go 10 buyins if the circumstances dictate. But last night I ran my original stack to 8.5 times its original value by the time the addon decision came due. Because of the severely diminished marginal utility of the putative extra chips, I had no motivation to add on, despite my willingness in general to cough up the extra $ when circumstances dictate.
And finally, if you mean that this will be your first time ever in tournament poker, James, I'd recommend starting out just a bit smaller just to get the feel for some of the dynamics that come up in tournaments that you can't learn from reading forum or books. No disrespect intended.
Good luck.
JG
This is not the tournament to break your cherry.
It is like a Sunday golfer trying to win on the Nike tour. Not gonna be easy. I suggest some time in the minors. 25-50 buy in events until you know your ass from your elbows then move up the $$ scale.
I am just breaking in to playing very small tournaments and the little stuff that comes up is increadible. I have been playing poker for a long time and the only decent thing available to me is "mini tournaments", that's how I got involved and it's a whole new ballgame. My point here is that you may want to consider the above post with re: to the analogy and maybe play some smaller tourneys first. . Of course if you're anything like me, you really don't want to hear this and well have fun and I hope you do good.
I think that if money is not an issue, meaning that if you can lose $900-1,200 comfortably, then you should actually play in this event and skip those small $10 and $20 tournaments. I dont think you need to start in "the minors." If you got the money, and think you play pretty well, then go for it. There are many people who have probably never played in a $20 buy in tournament in their life who are successful tournament players. I would assume most top tournament players fit that description. Maybe I am wrong. But, if you can afford it, go for it.
Gambler
Blinds are 25 50, I've got t525. one middle position (MP) limps, one late postion (LP) limps, SB calls, I check with 56o. Flop comes Jc5h6d, I bet out making it 300 to go, MP calls rest fold, turn 9c. I bet my remaining 225 and get called. MP has Kc6c and a King comes on the river.
My questions are this. Should I have bet out on the flop or should I have checked hopping to reraise. Also when I do bet or raise on the flop should I have just gone all in at this point I'm pot committed anyway.
my thoughts during the hand were as follows. I'm short stacked and felt I needed to make a move at some point before the blinds really started crippling me. On the flop I have bottom two pair which is probably the best hand so I bet the 300 hopping to either win it there or maybe get only one caller which I did. On the turn I'm going all in no matter what card comes. My strategy worked I got one caller and was a huge favorite to more than double my stack. However would onyone else ahve handled this situation differently.
I suspect your main problem here is, "King comes on river". Please tell me if I am wrong. You caught good and bet. A weak hand called which is good for you.
As far as a good strategy on the flop, this is propably a situation when it is important to mix. Sometimes bet, sometimes check-raise. Of course, it matters much what you believe the other players will do. With a frequent stealer in late position I would check frequently and let him throw his chips in. With loose-passives all around I would bet and collect. If you bet you are also investing money in future valuable stealing opportunies from early position. If you check raise all-in you are building an image for future check raise semi-bluffs. There are many factors.
As a minor point, maybe a 200 or an all-in bet would be more logical than the "semi all-in" 300 bet. I am currently trying to figure out how to use the bet spread in pot limit and, in particular, no-limit.
--- Chris Callahan
I assume you are BB.
Your play in the flop is all in.
Your 2 pair is probably the best hand at this point and you have to put a man for a decision for all his chips if you can.
You have to protect your 2 pair - your opponent could have as little as 77 or Jxs and your all in bet will be hard to call.
Limit HE last week I was in a similar position with 42 in bb and flop came j42 I check raised, 5 on turn I bet one caller J on river I check call I knew the J gave this guy 2 pair he had 88 - If it were NL I could have won the pot right on the flop with a big bet no way he could call me with that board unless he is a big idiot.
That is the difference between NL and limit.
ATWOOD
Bottom two pair is tough to play, very easy to get sucked out on, especially when your two pair are connected. This was a 200pot that I think you should have gone all-in on on flop. Makes someone else a very difficult call and it would seem unlikely to have hit the two limpers as AJ,JJ would have raised, and why would small pair or 78 limp into small pot unless they had enormous stakes. Best of luck, Gary
I am a new HE play - 50 hour at LL. I am considering playing in the Oleans HE $20 Buy-in $10 Re-buy.
Is this a limit game and what are the limits?
How many chips for $20?
Is the a relatively inexpensive way to sharpen HE skills for ring games?
What is the pay off (Internet site say "Bounty Tournament)?
Advice?
With only 50 hours in, it's a waste of your time and money to participate in these kind of tournaments. If your br doesn't allow you to play regularly at 3-6, 4-8, or 5-10, you might want to play some of these minis but it wont improve your ring game.
BTW, the Orleans is only a phone call away, I'm sure they can answer all of your questions as to the specifics of the tournament.
chris
My bankroll is okay. I could play at higher levels than you mention although I get the idea from this form that this would only be a efficient way to throw money away.
I mostly was concerned whether this was a good and relatively inexpensive way to sharpen my skill through playing. You have convinced me that it is not. I will stick with the ring games.
Thanks a lot.
Pyramid,
Hold on. First of all, "inexpensive" is a relative tterm. So whether or not you consider the small tournamnet buy in as inexpensive is a personal issue. Secondly it is a common misconception that you cannot sharpen your ring game poker skills through tournament play. the opposite is true. I rate tournamnet play far ahead of computer software for instance in providing an enviroment condusive with learning. It is true that the benefits from playing tournaments go down as skill level goes up but for the beginner and novice they offer aspects of the game that are beneficial. During the rebuy period play much resembles that of a wild 3-6 or 6-12 California game. After the rebuy period the game tightens up and soon resembles a mid limit to high stakes AC game. During these phases you can learn much about reading opponents, how and when to check raise. When to lead with the best hand. How to trap. etc.. The key to learning poker skills is just that "focus". You must focus on the skill or skills to be learned not winning the tournament.
Vince.
Thanks.
Vince -
Tournament play, in my experience, has not been that valuable. Every tournament I've played in, the player's play very differently than in ring games. Tighter, much more respect for raises,no capping for the hell of it, and, in general,more competent play which leads to less suck outs and bad beats. I've never won a tournament (only entered in five. Louisiana tournament with around 100 entrants. 1st time finished 12th, 2nd time finished 16th or 17th. Luxor two-table $20 buy-in thing twice. finished 4th the first time and 7th the second. Orleans O8, busted out within 20 minutes, my first tourney).
What's interesting is that both the Louisiana tournamnets were won by guys that I knew from Houston card rooms. The first guy I feared not at all and love having him in the game, a regular donator that got run over by the deck (or maybe he's a good tournament player,lousy ring player),and the second guy was the type that you'd rather not have in the game not because he was awesome butbecause he was taking a live one's seat. I can't remember ever using something I learned or observed in these tournaments during regular play because everyone, inc. the two jokers above, play very differently in regular games.
Now if you're saying that it's good for a beginner to participate in tournaments to learn blind structure, order of action, reading the board,trying to put somebody on a hand, then I'd agree with you. But I think it'd be cheaper to do it in a 3-6 game. Just play AA and KK, fold everything else and pay attention. The blinds will cost you $4 a round, about $12 to $16 dollars an hour. If you ever do come in you might win a hand. And you'll see how people really play as opposed to how they play in a tournament.
chris
"Now if you're saying that it's good for a beginner to participate in tournaments to learn blind structure, order of action, reading the board,trying to put somebody on a hand, then I'd agree with you. But I think it'd be cheaper to do it in a 3-6 game. Just play AA and KK, fold everything else and pay attention"
I am saying that for a beginner a tournament can be a worthwhile experience builder. Whether or not it is cheaper than 3-6 depends on a lot of things. In a tournamnet you (the beginner) can also try things like check raises, Calling when it's fairly close, etc. I stress that I believe the learning part is mainly for a beginner but for an advanced player a tournament may also be a good way to check out his game when he is running bad. He can for a relatively small amount of money check if he is adhearing to his basic strategy. I personnally do that during ring games but I believe a tournment with fairly long rounds, 1 hour or longer, can help a struggling player gain focus.
Just opinions no facts to back them up except some experience.
Vince
Pyramid,
Play the trnmt.
paul
I will.
Thanks
t
I made it past the intermission but was out soon after. I had too much to make a re-buy but did do an add-on.
I learned that a ring game is poker used to make money and a tournament is war using poker skills to make money.
Liked it a lot. I live in Minnesota and poker is coming to Minnesota in a month. I will be a regular in our local tournaments.
Thanks to all for the help
Does anybody know when and where the WSOP is, or where I can find this information?
Thanks, CJ
4/20 - 5/18
I've played a couple dozen NL tourney's so far. I plan to play many more.
One thing I've noticed is how frequently players go on tilt as they approach the final table, and right through to the end if they make it that far. Obviously I'm not talking about pro's here but am amused at the range of players that do this.
Last night, a friend and I made it to the final table of a 40 person entry. I was very short stacked and had decided to just play tight, aggressive, and wait for the others to knock themselves out. I ended up third.
My friend went heads up for 1st place with a fellow that was big chip leader but I could see was crumbling after my friend took a few hands in a row. I thought, wow, this guy is going to break and my friend will really nail him with a big one.
Well, the final hand came. The big blind amount was still less than 1/6 or so of my friends stack. My friend was SB with 1/5 the chips of the other. He opened with a moderate raise and the BB put him all in. He called.
The hands:
BB Q9 hearts SB 67 spades
My friend, not surprisingly, lost to a Q high.
In my opinion, both of these guys f___ed up and tilted. I don't think the Q9 knew my friend had crap. He had every reason to believe he would have an AX of some kind, or better. Of course his mistake was not as great as my friends, but still . . . Both of these guys gave far too much weight to the draw potential of their cards.
I can compute the standard divation in my game, usually about $150.00. How do I use this number to compute my bankrole requirements?
Try this formular.
9(sd)(sd) ------------ 4(wr)
where sd is the standard deviation and wr is your win rate. This increase the estimate by 10 to 20 percent to account for the fact that your win rate and standard deviation is not identical every time you play.
I have a re-occurance of the flu bug - so boredom is forcing me to come out of semi lurker mode. :-)
In the Phil Helmuth thread on the HE BB Abdul Jalib makes the astute observation that Ring games and tournaments are different beasts all together and I fully agree - I play differently in ring, limit tournaments and NL tournaments. My starting hand requirements are not the same and in tournament play I make plays I wouldn't consider in a limit game. I also have a different strategy for satellites.
Wondering if I am like a lot of the rest on you who play in both games and tournaments. Comments please.
I can say that most of the players I play with in both, play the same game "all the time".
Abdul Jalib makes the point that great tournament players are loose. Here is an exampe:
Last week I was in a satellite in the 10 seat there was this tall young confident type playing in the 1 seat. Between us we each knocked out 4 players within 10 min. Must have been some kind of record. I asked this guy in the 1 seat if he wanted to shop we each had T$1500 and only 10 min. invested. He thought for a second and declined. I won the next hand and had $2000 to his $1000 and gave him one more chance he declined.
WE went back and forth for 15 min or so when we finally had a show down - we were about even in chips and he bet I raised all in with AcKc he calls with 7d8d. An 8 hit on the turn and I lost. Loose play or world class.
I was told after the game this was a WSOP winner and world class player. I didn't recognize the guy and frankly didn't care - I just thought I lost to a loose lucky guy. Was I wrong?
I have been in 10 tournaments in the last 3-4 months and got to the money 6 times. I have noticed that at the last table most players play worse than usual. They go all-in on almost nothing and knock each other out. I wonder if this is only happening in low-limit tourneys? Survival seems to work good for me; waiting for a good hand seems to usually result in a caller. Dave
In low-limit tourneys, many players are happy just to make the final and record a win, however small. This can cause them to relax and loosen up a lot. The first stage of the final is often a good time to play tight and let them knock each other out if you have a decent stack.
As for Rounder's opponent's all-in with suited connectors, I'd have to say loose unless he really thought you might fold. IMO, even world class players aren't magicians and there's no need to be intimidated when you've got the goods, and AK is _enormous_ heads-up.
Andy.
You can't always make a decision of how good a player is based on won hand. Obviously he did well enough to get it to just you and him, so he's at least got some skills. D
No matter who it was, he got lucky on that particular hand. It sounds like Layne Flack to me from your description. He is certainly a "fast" player at times, and isn't inclined to make deals with people he doesn't recognize. Next time offer to buy him a glass of wine as a sweetener.
If it was Layne, you'll have plenty of chances to get even at the Commerce tournament as he likes to play lots of satellites. See you there.
in mahrch there will be a $1500 buy in nl he tourney in vienna, same structure as the big one at the wsop (tourney takes 4 days). to get as many players as possible to play the tourney, there are satellites held every week since 1 month. last week, the following situation happened to me:
we are down to 7 players (4 tables at the beginning, total chip amount: 63000. 4 players get the buy in, one player gets aboutt $800 in cash. one player and i are already qualified. player a is chipleader a maniac, wouldnīt ahve tp play a single hand to qualify, but plays most hands(about 15000), player b has 1500 and played extremly tight, iīm c with 6000, player d has 6500, rest has bigger stacks with about the same between 10000 and 12000 and plays pretty tight. iīm in the sb with 500, everybody folded to player a in the cut off seat, who raises up to 6000, player b calls all in with 1500, i look down and see pocket kings. should i call all in or not?
So, you have to beat 2 more players to make $800, and 3 more players to make $1500, right?
b is very short, d is barely ahead of you, and all others are close to double your stack. If you call here and lose to a (the big stack) you're out with no money. If you lose to b and beat a, you'll actually make a profit of 4k or so. So, losing to a is your only real concern here. If you beat both a and b, you're only 1 player away from the money, and you'll have a stack of over 13K, or second place, from which you can coast to a final 4 spot.
You're gonna beat both players much more than half the time here, and you'll at least beat a at least 75% of the time, I would guess. The only reason not to call would be if you're confident you can move into the money and even the final 4 without playing a single hand from this point on. If you think you can do that pretty often, then you can fold here. However, if you think you'll have to play at all between here and there, then go with this hand. A full victory here almost locks up the $1500.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Please copy and paste Mike Paulle's COP $5000 NLHE final posted today. I just can't get it to come up on my computer.
Many Thanks,
http://x23.deja.com/[ST_rn=if]/threadmsg_if.xp?thitnum=9&AN=579326019.1&mhitnum=0&CONTEXT=949421940.131858476
x
I am out for some tips guys. I live in the Uk and play home poker (casino card rooms are few and far between). I now feel ready to venture into the lions den and am planning on entering a pot limit hold'em tournament in London next weekend. I am a total public poker virgin and have never seriously played pot limit hold'em. Can anyone give me some hints so I don't bust out in the first couple of hands (freeze out, no rebuys).
1. How do I size my bets in pot limit? 2. Should I play tight to start or aggressive and try and get a head start on my table.
Your comments would be much appreciated.
Goldfish
Pot Limit is a good game to see flops you wouldn't normally see in no limit - for example small pairs are good starting hands if you hit the flop you can build a pot quickly.
Because of the nature of PL drawing hands are death. So unless you hit the flop hard you have to consider getting out unless you have a really great draw.
I would play tightly and loosen up in late position where you might get in with coupled suited cards like TJs or a couple if paints.
Success to you, let us know how it turns out.
Goldfish,
Rounder gives sound basic advice as always. Sizing your bets is easy - just bet the pot. I would definitely play tight to start in the first few tournaments.
Where are you planning on playing ? There are easier events to play in than freeze-outs. I recommend the Ģ5 Friday night tournament in Ladbrokes Russell Square.
My website, www.pokersoft.co.uk, has some information which you may find useful and free download software which is tailored to the UK structure *. www.poker-in-the-uk.com has tons of information about the UK scene if you have never come across it. If you want to E-mail me andy@pokersoft.co.uk I am happy to help further if I can.
Andy.
* Other poker software is available :-).
Andy and Rounder Thanks for the advice. Andy it is the Ladbrokes Regency at Russell Sq. I intent to play in. According to Poker-in-the-Uk it is a 10quid freeze out. Do you know differently? Regards Goldfish
Goldfish,
Last I heard the freeze-out proved unpopular on a Friday night and it reverted to Ģ5 multiple re-buy. Best to ring the club and find out the latest. Let us know how you get on.
Good luck,
Andy.
In the current issue of Card Player, the one with the sad genius on the cover, Mike C. has a column on no-limit HE tournament play that is probably the worst poker 'concept' I've ever read about. I don't have time to re-create it here, but suffice to say, if the pot is $350 and my opponent bets $100 into me when I have top two or top pair/2nd nut straight AND we both have ~$2700 left, I'm not going to lay 3.25-1 with implieds of 16-1 by making a "measured raise" of $200.
How can you write about no-limit tourneys and never once mention pot and/or stack size? The Suzuki book is pretty weak, but at least it doesn't have any nonsense like "power sequence betting" in it.
I haven't read the article so I won't comment on it directly. But you are right that there is much poker written poker advice where the author is not taking into account the size of the pot. Furthermore, in no-limit you must also take into account how the future action can also affect the hand. (You should do this in all games but it is especially important in no limit.)
Also, keep in mind that in a tournament, the percentage payoffs can distort these figures from a no limit ring game. This is especially true late in the event.
NL tournaments have almost nothing to do with pot odds once the blinds get big.
If you lose you are on your way to the parking lot if you win you say good buy to the guy who you beat.
NL is situational and about the man you are playing the hand with. NL is about stack size and POSITION.
All this math theory is wasted on NL play - save it for limit and PL games where it really applies.
..the blinds are 10-20 and both guys have $3000; and then maybe check out Stu Ungar's comments in Theory of Poker, on the final hand of the 1980 WSOP against Doyle Brunson.
You make just as much money being the first out as you do being one out of the money, so IMO, in a NL tourney, it's always double up or get up. McEvoy and Sexton have both written about this; how super-aggressive players like Ungar, Keller, and Bonetti usually are at the final table with the chip lead or out within the first two rounds. I think Sexton once wrote something about how he had more "in-the-money" finishes than Bonetti; but JB had far greater winnings due to all his firsts and seconds.
IMO NLHE tourneys are not the place to practice the "survive at all costs to the final table, then start whining for saves/deals" strategy that seems so prevalent nowadays at all buy-in levels(I'm NOT suggesting you're that type :) )
If you re-read my original post, you'll notice that one of my main complaints about that article is that stack size is not considered at all in regards to what action should be taken. And position isn't discussed, either.
Bill I think I am agreeing with you without reading the article I have the mag but have not had time - I'll read it on the flight to LA On Friday.
NL HE tourney at Foxwoods (every Tuesday night at 7, by the way). Final table, 8 players remain, 5 places paid. T20K in play, I have T3400 at start of hand, T20 ante, blinds are T100,200. I am big blind.
Player to my right (SB) is not a great player. He was at my table when there were 2 tables left, and I have never seen him fold his SB or BB unless there was a significant raise. He also tends to not bet hands like vulnerable top pairs. Not clear if he thinks he's trapping, or if he's timid. He also makes the occasional big bluff, as he got caught once, and I saw his cards (he was lazy while giving them to the dealer, after everyone else had folded) on 2 other occasions.
Everyone folds to the SB, and he calls. After calling, he has T1300 left. I raise T500 more with AsTc. He appears upset, and after a brief pause, says all-in. Thus, his raise is about T800 more into a pot of T1600. I think for a bit, decide he probably has a better hand despite his mildly upset attitude. However, I do not make myself out to be a 3:1 dog, partly because I feel that there is at least a 25% chance I actually do have the better hand. I call.
Good call? What do you think?
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
i don't think you are a 3-1 dog against anything but AA. i like your call, but i don't know anything about nl or tournies.
on the other hand, you may get a better opportunity to take the weak player's money. being directly on his right and all.
i don't think your in that bad shape if you lose the hand. i call, but i think you're chasing.
scott
He is like 12 to one against AA.
He is almost even money against an under pair like 88.
Greg - If LB flashed his cards to you and you could see that he had a pair of queens or jacks, if you knew for certain, would you still call?
Maybe AT is something like a 5 to 1 underdog against pair of queens.
Based on your description of the player and his little act (or, less likely, real reaction), that's the hand I would put him on.
I think you fold here.
Buzz
Against QQ, asuming your 10 is the same suit as one of the Q's, but your A is the only one of that suit, you are about a 2.5:1 "dog".
I like the T500 raise amount, but FossilMan must have known he would be pot committed if the sb raised all-in.
I would be most concerned that he has an A with a bigger kicker than my 10, but I'd have to call him and hope for the best. If he has AJo, I am about a 2.6:1 "dog" assuming all four suits in our hands. If my 10 is dominated by his A or J, I'm in a little worse shape.
It seems likely that he has a hand where the existing potsize makes calling obligatory. This is one of those situations that the better players create for themselves. The fact that he would throw his hand away pre-flop in a high percentage of cases makes the T500 raise profitable. When this is coupled by the times he would call the T500 and fold when FossilMan bets the flop, there can be no question that the raise was correct. The necessity of calling when he doesn't have sufficient strength left in his raise to drive you out is simply a byproduct of the correctness of the raise amount. This is the danger that the raise produces. It usually results in the BB raiser being less of a "dog" than the total pot offers in compensation for assuming the risk. If you aren't willing to call the all in move, you are giving away too much. I say it was a good raise and that Greg made a good call. I don't know how it turned out, but I'd bet that the pot was offering satisfactory odds for the call.
esp. when you factor in that Fossil will still have 2100 left if he loses(5 rounds), and have 5300 with one less player left if he wins. Possibly eliminating a player is of huge(underappreciated IMO)importance at a final table. The difference btwn 6th, 7th, and 8th place payouts are usually not significant, at least not to me.
My call is pretty much mandatory. Getting 3:1 in a spot where I think I may have the best hand (~25% of the time I put him on a worse A, or a hand like KQ, KJ, etc.), the call is a must. The only hand that has me beat worse than 3:1 is AA. Every other hand I'm less than a 3:1 dog, and as stated above, sometimes I'm the favorite.
However, a better question is probably "Should I have raised preflop?"
As John points out, once I raise, I MUST be ready to call his all-in reraise, given that he can't raise enough to force me out. Thus, maybe I shouldn't raise, and see the flop? I think I agree with John, and agree with myself at that time, that I should raise anyway. It is much more likely that THIS opponent is calling with garbage, and I should raise, than it is that he is trapping. Thus, I win chips by raising much more often than I lose, and should do it.
A good twist of facts would be, what if the player is someone who will limp with anything here, as well as trap, AND he will also call your raise with pretty much anything? In this spot, you are clearly the favorite, but are adding a lot of volatility to your situation, since all he has to do is catch any pair on a flop that misses you, and he becomes the big favorite. Thus, while you win more than you lose, you are risking a loss in a spot where you could have seen the flop for free, and THEN decided what to do.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In partial answer to your question about possibly just calling and seeing the flop. You probably believed that your T500 raise gave you an excellent chance to win the pot without a flop? It is the combined equities you gain by raising that justify the raise. Let's say that 40% of the time he folds to the raise, 40% of the time he calls with a lesser hand and 20% of the time he raises all-in with a better hand, but not one greater than a 3:1 favorite. If you break the raise down this way, you see that every component is profitable in and of itself. In fact, the most dangerous component, his all-in raise, leaves you as the money favorite in all but one case (AA). I would always prefer to win it pre-flop, and would thus be willing to raise 100% of the time in order to give myself a chance to do so. The important fact here is that even in a worst case scenario, he can't knock you out of the tourney or seriously cripple you. This is important, and allows you the luxury of playing him somewhat more aggressively than if he were a bigger stack. I say that the raise was definitely called for in this case.
Fossilman,
First Hi how are you?
Now, if you don't mind, I will add my 2 cents. This is a great discussion. Big John is the man isn't he. Great response with justification. If you raise in this situation then you must be prepared to call all in given the relative chip positiopns. Do you raise? Big John says yes. I agree. I do not want to see the flop with this hand. It's an emergency hand. I like giving the SB a free look at the flop. I know he called the big blind bet indicating he has something but from your description he would do that with little if anything at all. So I raise. HGow much do I raise? I make him call all in! I move in without hesitation. I hope he folds. If he calls I figure to be behind. But I take the cahnce rather than be forced with an even more difficult decision on the flop. More importantly why give him a chance to get away and survive. Why let him call a relatively small raise with K,J or K
Vince.
Greg,
What do you think your opponent thought you would do? If you have been raising him previously from the big blind he might have just limped in with a big hand hoping to trap you.
I don't like your raise with this hand with eight players still in the game. Since, your stack size is above the average(2500). I would wait for some of the smaller stacks to commit suicide.
I make the same play in the same situation except I make it all in. He is probably on a steal and got caught - he can have anything from a KX to a A rag.
Even an under pair or 2 paints - I like the AT here.
What happened.
Hi Greg,
I guess we've met without realizing....I was in the 1 seat. Maybe next time I will remember to say hi.
It's the final table of the same NL HE tourney I described below. There are T20K in play, 9 players remain, 5 are paid. The ante is T20, blinds are T100,200, and Protagonist is down to T500, and is second to act this hand. Thus, Protagonist has this hand, plus the next hand, then must post the T200 BB.
UTG is a tough, aggressive player who has recently won a couple of goodly pots, and has about T3,800. He has been playing quite a few of his hands, but has yet to show down anything cheesy or even really marginal. As first to act, he raises a standard amount, T600.
Next to act, and certainly in a tough situation, do you call or fold with Qh9h? Please explain why, not just a plain answer.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fold. For a number of reasons.
(1) With your call, you put more "dead" chips in the pot, thus encouraging others to call.
(2) UTG probably has a decent hand, one that may have you beat in a very bad way (AQ, for example).
(3) You may get an equivalent hand (and Q9 is about an average hand) when you are UTG and thus get to make the first play at the pot. That may result in you being heads up with the BB (who probably will call with almost anything).
That being said, you have to make a stand, and this hand isn't so bad that it makes a call terrible.
I agree with the majority, and disagree with Rounder. Q9s is not, I think, a good enough hand to call with here.
I have a handy printout of the pot equity of every single HE hand vs. 1 RANDOM opponent. In this data, Q9s is just within the top quartile, which seems pretty good. However, it has a pot equity of only ~57%. Remember, this is against a random hand. UTG does not have a random hand, he almost certainly has a much better than average hand. Q9s is going to be the dog almost 100% of the time, the question is merely how big of a dog? With the dead money from the blinds that fold, Q9s may be a chip favorite (i.e., it may have a positive expected return). However we are very close to the money, so I think being a small chip favorite is not enough. You need to be a significant chip favorite.
Another issue: What about the players left to act? The best result would be they all fold, and that will happen pretty often. Sometimes, one of those folks will wake up with a hand like AA-99 or AQ and play, at which point your Q9s is looking pretty sickly. Even if this only happens 2-5% of the time, it still cuts into your odds noticeably.
While Rounder is correct that your next hand, when you are UTG, will be worse than Q9s the majority of the time, I still think you're in a better spot than when you call with Q9s after UTG raises. First, even if your hand is worse, let's say J7s, you're in a better spot. J7s is only just in the top half of all hands, yet it's pot equity against a random hand is ~52%, only slightly worse than the Q9s. Second, as the raiser, you will often get everyone to fold to the big blind, who will likely call with anything, given the small size of your raise. This will happen almost as often as everyone will fold after you call with your Q9s, as everyone still is afraid to call not because of you, but because of the players behind them who have more chips and might reraise. Thus, you will get folds from almost everyone, unless they have a big hand. Once it gets down to the big blind, he will likely call, but since he is doing that with anything, you are putting your money in a spot where you can be the favorite (52% over a random hand in this example).
If your UTG hand is much below average, let's say <44% pot equity versus a random hand, then fold and hope for the best in the BB. BTW, only about 1/4 of all hands have less than 44% equity against a random hand. Also, I've just kind of picked 44% out of the air. I am very unsure where the cutoff point should be.
For those who like to know the outcome, Q9s caught a 9 on the river and beat the AK held by UTG. I was NOT the holder of the Q9s, but was the UTG raiser. I went on to bust out the Q9s player a few hands later. Unfortunately, he had already given away 2/3 of his chips at that point. If you like to know the FINAL outcome, when we got to 4-handed, we were all very close to even in chips, and split it up 4-ways.
Later, Greg Raymer
I fold. Too much chance that you wind up with multi-way action due to the number of people left to act behind you. If you could take this hands head's up, it would be OK. I'd wait, hoping to pick up something better UTG, or get a chance to play the BB head's up with just about anything. If you survive the BB confrontation, you have nine more chances to pick up a good hand.
My decision is partly predicated on the necessity to make it to the final 5 before you are in the money. You are certainly going to need to win the next hand you play anyway, and if you do it while in the BB you buy yourself the luxury of seeing more hands before absolutely having to make another stand.
John I like your answer but I like mine better.
That red meat is getting to me I guess. :-)
I think it is a clear call. It is a much better than average hand and the UTG may be on a good hand like a med pair and you would only be very slight underdog.
The decision is do you make the most of your T$500 or hope your next hand is better it probably won't be.
I'd call here - BTW this exact thing happened to me today in a tournement I won. I had Kc9C with 2 callers (one of them I have been beating all day with better draws) I had T900 and went all in - flop 3 clubs and I triple up. but I felt this is the best I'll see before the blinds eat me up. I gave it a shot and I think you need to give it a shot here.
Since he does not need chips he probably has a real hand. Fold the Q9. It's tough, but I'd wait till the next hand or the big blind to commit, unless I thought that I could survive and let other die first. I'd have to be there.
100 players - $30 buy in no rebuys. Were are playing for $4000 total purse. I get to the final table with smallest stack T$700 and inside of 15 min. I am chip leader. I knock out player after player until there are 3 of us left. I have more than 1/2 the chips.
We are playing for money and points for an April freeroll when some (4 or 5)WSOP seats are at stake. I already have eneough points for the freeroll and the points are not chopable.
Smallest stack suggests a chop of the money and I suggest both of them getting 2nd place and I keep the rest they agree. Now we are playing for the points.
I end up heads up with the small stack he has T$5000 and I have over T$25000 - he goes all in on every sb and I do the same we are even and he wins 7 or so in a row to get the 1st place points and I get 2nd points. I would have played it differently if money was on the line.
I am recording this as a win what do you guys think.
It is my 3rd win this year out of 15 tournaments.
It took me until July last year to record my 1st win.
Rounder,
A strange chop because, as you realised, since you didn't need the points you were essentially wasting your time. It might have been better to set some amount of money aside to play for as well as the points.
As for your records, depends why you're keeping them. If it's to impress people, count anything where you win more money than anyone else as a win. If it's to act as a goal to spur you on, it might be better to only call it a win if you take every cent of first prize, and anything else is "a split" or something. Either is valid as long as you're consistent and not trying to fool yourself (or anyone else :-)).
If you're not consistent and honest when keeping records they become worthless or even a hindrance.
Andy.
I agree Andy just wanted some input on this one.
I keep records for a lot of reasons but impressing people is not one of them.
Interesting thing is happening here in Arizona.
The casino is keeping a tally of points won for this free roll in april. 2 points for 11-20 and 4 to 40 for the final table. Top 100 point getters get a free roll for (5)$2000 WSOP event seats. There will be 65 tournaments contributing to this point total. 60% HE tournaments.
I have contended for some time that tournaments like this have 50 to 60 %+ dead money, that is players with NO chance of making the final table. Sp far the board is top heavy with points and is proving my theory well see what the 65 tournaments show. I will try to analyze the results and report them.
Rounder,
"I keep records for a lot of reasons but impressing people is not one of them" - I never thought you did, just playing devil's advocate and reminding the inexperienced :-).
I would be very interested in an analysis of the final points tally. Local casinos run similar kinds of things but they tend to be biased towards attendance rather than success - turn up twice and get your butt kicked normally scores more points than turn up once and win. This is entirely understandable a) to encourage bigger turnouts and b) so regulars are encouraged by a high placing irrespective of their playing skills.
I would _love_ to see a breakdown of pure $$ from my local tournaments as I struggle to estimate how much the best players are winning and how much the worst are losing. If I could do this I might get a better idea of how much I could win if I improved my game enough. However, making such results public could have the disastrous effect of embarrassing the worst players and driving them away, so it's probably for the best that these stats are not available. Let us know how your final tally turns out.
Andy.
Andy will do -
I think the "show up" thing is a British thing (you know I love the UK and lived there most of the 80's) one thing I found was the lack empethus on winning and more on participating. In the USA "winning isn't everything it is the ONLY thing" in the UK playing well up to your best is good eneough.
Not a criticism but an observation from an anglophile.
Rounder,
Be pretty careful when analyzing data, especially data where you don't have it all.
Many of the people on that list with only a few points may well be folks like me that would play in 1 or 2 tourneys when in town on business or pleasure, but whom have no chance at the final win because we won't play often enough. Others will be people who live far away, and visit town to play poker a couple or three times a year. Others will be regulars in the ring games who only occasionally enter the tourneys. If the same 100 people entered every tourney, then you would of course be able to draw some strong conclusions. Since some of those on the list just won't have entered many events, the final list will always be very top heavy. Determining just how top-heavy the list must be to back your theory is not something that is easily calculated or estimated.
I will tell you one thing. There are lots of weak tourney players here in CT. When we have the big events in December and April with 45 or 60 minute levels, these folks do not reach the money. When we play the daily events with 20 minute levels, these people manage to win every now and then.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg point well taken.
In a big bet Hold-Em tournament, when the big blind is 10% of your stack or more, you never call - it's either fold or raise (except calling all-in).
Is this true, true with the odd exception, or false ? Would anyone even lower the threshold to 5% ?
Thanks in advance,
Andy.
Andy there are stages of tournaments when a raise is mandatory - I think it is when you get down to two tables and the blinds are high. I don't know about the % I hate rules anyway. But at this stage I am raising or folding because I am not in the pot with a hand I can't stand a raise with (stealing is the exception) so I am there with a raise. I may check/raise the flop and induce a big bet with a monster but that is another story.
I think it depends a LOT upon what everyone else is doing. If people are frequently limping, and often there is no raise preflop, then you can limp with many hands from many positions that you would fold or raise with if the game were tighter and more aggressive. This is true even when the BB is 10% of your stack. For example, if I have a small pair, 3 or more people have limped in, and I have no reason to think a raise will occur behind me, then I would limp in with it. If the BB were much higher than 10% of my stack, I would fold. If the BB is 5% or less of my stack, I will call with a wide variety of hands, especially from late position.
If everyone is playing tight and doing the fold-or-raise strategy that is so common in big bet tourneys, then you need to do the same. If a hand isn't worth raising with under the circumstances, then it almost certainly needs to be folded.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I've been thinking about my final table play for a while and I had a thought that perhaps some others on this forum could critique.
During NL tourneys, your ultimate goal is to get all the chips. Implicit in this goal is to avoid losing your chips.
Three things can happen when you voluntarily enter a hand: (A)You win, thus increasing your chip count; (B)You lose, thus decreasing your chip count; (C) You have a split pot which, depending on the number of players in a pot, may result in an increased chip count. Of course, there can be odd variations of these three results when there are all-in players.
No hand is invincible (though I certainly feel that way when I pick up aces). Because of that, the more hands you play, the more likilihood that the law of averages will catch up with you and even your big hands will get snapped.
The point is, I tend to build up a strong chip count early in tourneys. Then I tend to coast -- waiting for monsters to increase my count. This is the idea of "limiting exposure". I am trying to avoid becoming a statistical anomoly by throwing off a large chip count.
At what point, in relation to the blinds, does this tight "limiting exposure" tactic need to take a back seat to taking a stand? I tend to wait until I have about double the BB before I get really worried about my chip count (of course, I'm always thinking about it and ways to increase it). Is this too late? Too early?
WOW interesting subject.
I have been at final tables with most of the chips and came in 8th or 9th and I have been there with the lease and won outright.
Final table is a crap shoot. It is about the BIG stack running over the other players and taking on small stacks with modest hands. When there are 10 at the table and I am in late position I am caucious and looking for opportunities and situations rather than hands. As the table dwindles to 5 or less then the real game starts.
When to take a stand? As late as possible I look at my hand and ask myself is this the best situation I am likley to find myself before the blinds eat me up.
If I can answer yes I push in.
In tournaments when I have answered yes and didn't push in I have regretted it so now I do it when the answer is yes. I don't feel like I have to make a move until the blinds are 1/2 my stack and I am in mid position.
Hope that answers you from my perspective.
Thanks for your response Rounder -- like you mention, there is often a "feeling" you have when you can steal the blinds/make a move.
One of the things I find happening to me in tourneys is either chipping up fast or busting out. Because of this I tend to make it to the final table well off or not at all (about an even split).
Getting into the money is, unsurprisingly, somewhat trickier. I've made it to the final table with a huge stack and been snapped (probably where I started thinking about the idea of limiting exposure to the results of hands). I've made it there with less chips than most and simply played very well (with good cards) and taken first.
Another way to look at my initial question is suppose you got pocket aces every hand of a tourney. Would you play everyone to the river? No. Sometimes (say a 4 flush is on board) you would know you were beat. The trick would be to play them in a way to limit your exposure to getting the aces snapped (and losing all your chips) and to milk the best hand for as many chips as possible.
Incidentally, I have had aces twice in a row at a tournament -- both times I never showed down my hand (my opponents folded) but I won huge pots.
Here is the thing with AA in a NL tournament.
I like to isolate pairs and A big with them and trap.
I do not like multi way pots with them. I know these guys like to have a big pot but I am happy to double or triple up. I want the AA to win and I will do all I can to get heads up with a pair or AK if I can.
Late in a NL tourney I'm looking first for good situations. These situations might occur when I have a good hand, good position, good stack size against remaining players or any of fifteen or so other factors. If I am the sb and it is passed to me and the BB has a stack too small to hurt me, this is a good situation and I'm going to be raising him all in. If I'm on the button with any ace, first in, and the remaining players have smaller stacks, I'm throwing in a big raise. If I have a big pair early or UTG, I'm going to limp and hope someone raises.
When I play Rounder, I look out of the corner of my eye to see where he is looking when the flop comes down. If he's looking to his left, he has a big hand and is hoping someone hits something so he can check and trap them. If he is looking to his right, he has no pair and is hoping to catch a piece of the flop and see a cheap turn. If he is looking down at his chips or at the flop, it means he has gas and hopes no one notices that he is the one fouling the air around the table. If he is looking down, I hold my breath and hope the air filtration in the cardroom is as good as advertised.
In the Other Topics Forum, Mah wrote: "For my first poker experience, I went to Harrah's and played a Pot-Limit Hold'em Satellite for $65. All the players decided to contribute $35 for a last longer bet. When five of us were left, we split it up with each of us getting $70."
I don't like these last longer bets. It appears from Mah's post that the winner of the side bet was also going to be the winner of the satellite. If that's the case, then it's OK. Your strategy shouldn't change, you're just increasing the size of the prize. Most often, I see these side bets arise as "second place" bets, where the guy who comes in second in the satellite gets the money. In this case, you should NOT enter the bet. By doing so, you have given yourself an edge on your competitors when it comes to winning the satellite itself. This is because your strategy is focussed only on winning the satellite, which you must win all the chips to do. Everyone else is trying to win the satellite OR come in second. As such, survival for survival's sake is more important to them than to you, and they will make decisions that may increase their chances of finishing first or second, while decreasing their chances of finishing first only. This is to your benefit.
Where you can really see this is if you get down to 3 players, you and 2 of the second place bettors, and you have the chip lead. These guys now need to avoid conflict in order to increase their chances of finishing at least second. As such, you have been given a license to steal, as both of them will be very hesitant to take you on, and risk going broke before the other guy. This can DRAMATICALLY increase your chances of winning.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fossil,
I went along with the crowd on this one. I was not going to let this small side bet of $35 distract me from winning the satellite. As you can see, if that guy did not flop that lucky straight I may have won it.
Ah, but if you ignore this side bet, then you are not optimizing your return on the combination of the satellite itself + the side bet.
My point is that if you engage in a side bet like this, then unless EVERYONE does it, you will be at some form of disadvantage.
Thus, I do not go along with the side bet, and thereby gain an edge over my opponents.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I felt pressure to make the side bet since everyone at the table participated. There was one guy that refused, but then he finally gave in and forked over the dough.
Never Surrender! Side bet = No!
Vince
But, I did win it.
Vince is right. Plus, if you are at a table of strangers, a simple "no thanks, I'm playing to win", politely or curtly as you please, could help your table image in a way that you can exploit.
Andy.
There is possibly a time when it is worth making the side bet. This is when the EV you gain from the side bet is larger than the EV you lose by now no longer being able to play the satellite itself optimally.
To put some completely made up numbers on an example:
Let's say you and 9 others each put up $115 for a satellite that pays $1080. Then someone says "Let's each put up $15 more, and pay it to second place. That way you actually make a little bit if you come in 2nd."
Now, let's assume that you're a great satellite player, and have an EV in this satellite of +$100. If you make the side bet, this EV will drop to $90, but your EV from the side bet will be $15. In this case, you gain $5 by making the side bet, even though you've reduced your EV from the satellite itself.
However, in the vast majority of cases, I would forego the side bet, as I think more often than not you will be giving up net EV (unless EVERYONE is in the side bet). Another exception would be if the side bet is comparable in size to the satellite entry fee, in which case if you really are a solid favorite in the satellite itself, you probably gain from the side bet enough to overcome what you lose in the main bet. A final exception, mentioned in my original post, is when the side bet goes to the WINNER of the satellite, not to second place. In that event, you are playing the same strategy as before, you're just betting more to win more.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In the last longers I get into, it always goes to the individual still playing when all the other last longer participants have been eliminated. I never participate when it goes to the second place finisher. If I get into a last longer bet, it is either with a friend as a friendly wager, or it is against people that I feel I play superior to. The sole exception is Layne Flack; I concede he is a better player, but it is so much fun to see the look of incredulity on his face when he has to pay up. I believe that having last longer bets improves my overall tournament expectation since I tend to play more correctly (patiently) in the early and middle stages in order to allow myself the best chance of winning the last longer bets.
"but it is so much fun to see the look of incredulity on his face"
Big John,
I used to think that you were a sadistic guy now I'm sure of it. "I get a kick outta you "
Vince.
John,
This discussion is centered on a common practice in single table satellites, of the players putting up some extra money for a second place prize. What you're discussing is a last longer bet in a regular, full-field tournament, where the winner is the last person of the 2 or more in the side bet pool eliminated from the tournament.
However, I think that making the bet you're describing is also a mistake. Again, to maximize your personal EV, you need to consider the side bet money. As such, you may put a little too much emphasis on mere survival during the early and middle stages of the tournament, and maybe not enough emphasis on winning chips. This would be even more true if you knew that you only had to outlast 1 or 2 more guys to win the side bet. By playing to maximize your total EV (tournament + side bet), you are necessarily reducing your EV in the tournament itself on some occasions, since a play that benefits one will sometimes hurt the other.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I've made many side bets in single table satellites. Some involved seval players, some involved one other player. I've seen second place last longers where the last longer winner was to be the last eliminated. Since this meant the satellite winner couldn't win the last longer, I just chose not to participate.
I partially agree with the things you wrote, but reserve for myself the judgement as to whether my last longers will hurt my overall expectation. In full tournaments I tend to do better when I play more patiently and conservatively. Having a last longer bet is simply one way to encourage myself to think a little longer before committing myself to a dangerous hand. I am also quite a bit of money ahead on this form of wager.
I have made 2 LL bets in my life and am 0 for 2. Don't think I will be doing it any more.
Rounder,
Your number of sample trials is way too small to come to any informed decisions regarding this. For your own sake, I urge you to reconsider and keep making them! I think it adds a little spice to the tournaments. OTOH, maybe you are due to run off three or four consecutive wins against me, in which case quitting seems to me to be the prudent thing to do.
I don't believe they are harmful if you keep them down to a nominal amount. I once had a $200 last longer in a $30.00 buy-in single table lowball satellite. The winner got 2 $100 lammers, so the last longer was as valuable as winning. I busted out in 4th place, but my last longer opponent came in 5th. I would gladly wager $25.00 per opponent in a tournament if I could get a bet down with every entrant. Having done so, my tournament strategy would be drastically altered. I know I would not get involved early with marginal holdings.
Well John I don't think our LL bets changed my play.
If I recall we were 11 and 12 in one - you lasted just long eneough to get my 2 bits. The LL bet last Sat was a disaster for me but it was the last thing on my mind when I pushed in with the AsKs and lost the those 8's.
Funny thing is the guy with the 88 thought he was the dog, I was he dog but not by much.
I don't ever do the LL bets or swap %'s.
But in your case maybe I better keep up the LL bets I am due huh!
Cheers, Mike
Mike,
Anytime you want to trade 5% with me at a tournament, let me know and it is a done deal. I tried to stop doing that as my records show I definitely have gotten the worst of it by trading. In the end, I couldn't find a way to say no to people that I've done it with in the past.
Another good reason not to start doing this IMO ...
In the Other Topics Forum, Mah wrote: "For my first poker experience, I went to Harrah's and played a Pot-Limit Hold'em Satellite for $65. There were three of us left and I screwed up. I could have won it, but don't forget, I had been up since 3:00 a.m. CT and I was tired. Here's what happened. The chip leader had the button and passed. The blinds were $100 and $200. I had the small blind and called with 8c 5s and the big blind checked. The flop was 5 - 7 - 8 (all different suits). I checked and the big blind bet the pot. My opponent had $250 left and I had $575. I decided to gamble and raised him all-in, and he called. My hand did not improve and he showed me his 4 - 6. I should have checked and folded. What was I thinking? If I would have given the guy credit for a straight, especially since he bet over half his stack, I could have had a chance to win the satellite. Now, I had a quarter left. The next two hands I won and on the third I was gone."
This is classic after-the-fact thinking. You limped and he checked preflop. After you checked the flop, he bet the pot. Unless this guy is the most timid player alive, you can't put him on anything here. From his point of view, you appear to have nothing. So, why shouldn't he bet and steal the pot? Heck, I'd be more scared of a check then a pot-sized bet if I held 2 pair. A pot sized bet is not asking for a call. It's looking for a fold much of the time.
Here, you flopped 2 pair heads-up when both of you were short-stacked relative to the blinds. As such, you need to be psychic to not put him all-in with his straight. Don't kick yourself any more, you played this hand just fine and lost. It happens all the time, right?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fossil,
Your right!
Greg,
Thanks for responding to my trip report. I have to start thinking like Sklansky. After thinking about how I played that hand I remember now what I was thinking. "This guy will think I'm weak when I check, and I'll put him all-in." I'd do it the same way again. Think about it, what are the odds that this guy is going to crack my two small pair by flopping a straight? It would be a big mistake to not do what I did.
Do the super sat's ath wsop of poker have rebuys?
Danny S
yes.
do they have rebuys.
yes.
I think Padraig meant, "Boy, do they have rebuys!"
thanks bill.
Mah wrote in a post on the Other Topics Forum: "After playing the satellite, I bought my $500 tournament chip and signed up for the 1:00 p.m. No-Limit Hold'em tournament.
The game got started with a lot of fast action. Some limping, but most were raising, and the raises were $50 when the blinds were only $5 and $15. I thought the raises were too high. Many players were playing hands that I would dump for a raise."
$50 raise is just about right. This is exactly a pot-sized raise, which is pretty typical in NL play. Any less and you're inviting the BB to call with anything (which means you can't put him on a hand). Any more, and you'll only get called by someone with a premium hand. Stealing the blinds is great later in the tournament, but at this stage, you want more.
"At the beginning of the third level - blinds were $25 and $50 - the action slowed down, but now I had only $125 left. Well, I was still getting the trash hands and decided to play a hand. I was in late position with Kh - 4h and called a $50 raise and the blinds folded. I was not playing the hand because it was suited, I was playing it because it was the first hand I had in the past hour that had a King or better. The flop came K - rag - rag and the early position player checked. I threw in my last quarter, my opponent called, and I won the pot. You should have seen the look on my opponents face. He started complaining about his beat. Words could not describe it. I was starting to have some fun."
As you probably know, this call was a bad play. It worked for you this time, but it is definitely not your best choice. I put tilt in the subject line because I think that's where you were when you made this call.
When your stack is less than about 5 times the BB, you typically only have 2 options. Fold or raise all-in. Your goal is to steal the blinds, or get called holding AA. That's really about it. While getting called when holding other good hands is OK, even with KK a fold may be preferable.
Here, you had K4s. This is not a great hand. If you had it on the button and everyone folded to you, you should consider going all-in with it, because it figures to be better than what the BB is holding, so you have some edge. But you never call a raise with it when short-stacked. The raiser almost certainly has a better hand than this, so why throw in your chips when you know you're a dog, and you can wait a few hands for a spot where you could be the favorite? You want to be the first person in the pot in this situation, coming in for an all-in raise, hoping that everyone folds. If your stack is so short that the BB will call with anything, at least you've got a good hand you waited for that is up against a random hand from the BB.
Additionally, let's pretend that your K4 was instead AK (in which case playing it is a good choice). Now, you do not want to just call 80% of your chips here, because doing so is just asking for someone yet to act to call, especially the BB who is getting great odds to flop something. You need to raise all-in, especially when you have so little left that you will call any bet after any flop. Your raise doesn't change the math much for someone who considered calling, but it does make them think that you are more likely to have a big hand, and they may not want to call with the thought that they're maybe playing primarily for a side pot that doesn't yet exist. So hoard those last chips, but be aggressive with them when you decide the time is right to take the risk.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fossil,
I know it was a bad hand to play. But, I was ready to give up. So, is that tilt?
Yes.
Unless you made a conscious, thoughtful decision to give up the tournament at a point in time when your remaining equity was meager, in order to more quicly get in a good side game. For example, if you thought your equity in the tournament was down to $10, and you saw 1 empty seat left in a game where you figured your EV was $100/hour, then maybe you should give up the tournament and make sure you get that seat in the ring game.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Mah wrote: >>I was in late position with Kh - 4h and called a $50 raise<<
Fossilman wrote:
"As you probably know, this call was a bad play. It worked for you this time, but it is definitely not your best choice. I put tilt in the subject line because I think that's where you were when you made this call. "
It was a worse play than meets the eye. An important part of tournament play is focus and state of mind. A play like this, successful or not, cannot have a positive effect on one's mental state. IMO the play itself will adversely affect your decisions for quite a while during the remainder of the tournament. Tilt certainly comes to mind when describing one's mental state when making this play. Maybe an interesting side effect or if planned a potential positive result of a play like this is that one may send an opponent on tilt if they win this hand with K,4o. Of course that was not Mah's intention.
Vince.
Vince,
The guy I played K4 was shortly out of the tournament. For some reason, I wanted to prove that I was willing to gamble. Anyway, after I had made those two goofy plays--the K4 and the AQ. I didn't get played with until about five others busted out.
Mah wrote in a post on the Other Topics Forum: "After playing the satellite, I bought my $500 tournament chip and signed up for the 1:00 p.m. No-Limit Hold'em tournament.
It was hard to believe, but I was successful at stealing blinds with a small stack."
This is an interesting phenomenon that works quite well against many players, most often good players. I will mention below why this only works well in the early or middle stages, and not the final stages.
If you have 3-5 times the BB and raise, no one before the BB should call unless they have a pretty good hand. Partly this is because they don't want to call unless they think they have a better hand than you, and partly because the players behind them, yet to act, pose the threat of a reraise, which they do not wish to face without a premium hand.
Once it gets folded to the BB, they also shouldn't call with just anything. They are getting pot odds of 2:1 or less on the call, so they shouldn't call you with cheesy hands. They also can't really call with hands like small pairs or suited Aces, because these hands also are often not getting the right odds. The thing is, if you had lots of chips, and I'm the BB with lots of chips, I can call with lots of hands, because I'm planning on winning a lot more AFTER I flop big. When you're all-in, and I have A4s, I figure you've got a pair higher than 44, or a better A, so I'm not getting the right odds to call.
Once it gets late in the tourney (in or near the money), eliminating opponents is at least as important as winning chips. Then, if I have enough that calling your all-in raise and losing won't make a big dent in my stack, I will often call with almost anything. At this point, you will no longer be able to pull off the short stack steal. Also, some opponents place too high of a premium on eliminating players throughout the tournament. Against these guys you will also be unable to steal even at a time when if they played better, you could. Against these guys, or late in the tournament, don't try the small stack steal unless you're willing to get called (because often you will).
"But, I really needed to build my stack, so I changed my strategy and started limping instead of raising all-in."
Why? If this strategy has been succeeding, why abandon it? You don't have to double up instantly to win. You just need to keep on building your stack. If you can steal 1.5-2 times per orbit, you will slowly but steadily build your stack. This will be enough.
"On the next hand I limped in under the gun with As Qc and was called by a middle position player. An 8 - rag - rag fell on board. The blinds checked, I checked, and the middle position player made a bet to put me all-in. I decided to gamble, I had six outs, and called his bet. An Ace came on the river and I won the hand. My opponent said, "I thought you had an eight." I replied, "I had to get lucky sooner or later." Barbara and I laughed. My opponent was pissed and I loved every second of it. Some of these tournament players are real whiners."
Yes, many are whiners. However, you got lucky, and shouldn't have limped with AQ. You want to raise all-in (since your stack is so short), and if everyone folds, that's good. If you get called, well that's OK, because AQ is a decent hand, and you couldn't afford to wait for better.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fossil,
I know I should have moved in that would be the correct play. Your right. But, sometimes it's fun to do the wrong thing. I'll keep my day job. It pays good and its much easier than playing poker.
I told you no message. What are you looking here for?
Fossilman,
You have done a great job on these posts of Mah's COP experience. One thing here. Mah limped with the AsQc suited. I agree this is a raising hand and shoud normally be treated that way. The reason is obvious. It plays a lot better against one opponent. But that aside there are times in a limit tournament that it is correct to limp with a big hand even with a small stack. I'm not saying that A,Qo is a big hand. It depends. But Mah's reasoning is sound. He needed chips and a situation arose that offered him a chance at getting more than just the blinds. Was he correct? The "chip and a chair" philosophy is o.k. But the Chair with a mountain of chips seems to work better. Of course there is no substitute for being aggressive.
Vince.
I just finished a disappointing session in tonight's NL hold'em tourney at Crystal Park. It was a $100 buy-in plus $20.00 in "juice" with a single $100 rebuy. It was only my second tournament of the year and I played only because Rounder was in town and I had some hope of talking him into another last longer bet.
I got there around 4:00 P.M. and sat in a 3-6 Hold'em game while I was waiting for Rounder. I played four hands and was ahead $6.00 when they announced a single table NL satellite for $30.00. I signed up and sat down. They paid a $120.00 buy-in and $100.00 in cash for the winner, and gave the runner-up $40.00 in cash. When it had just begun, Rounder showed up just in time to watch me suck out on another player and double my stack. He seemed impressed. When we got down to three handed, I had T2,000 of the T3,000 in play. I didn't win another hand and finished a disappointing third. Rounder sat in a satellite, but was through before I busted out of mine. We both went and paid our entry fees and then went out into the refreshing Compton night and had a brisk stroll around the parking lot.
In the tournament, I sat down at a table with Serios B., Brad Daugherty, Danny Lewis and, after the first hour, Men "The Master" and Eric Holum. Needless to say, I was delighted when they broke our table after three hours and I could go find softer pickings. Rounder's table wasn't exactly "cheese" either, but the mere fact that he survived to the break suggests several softer players were present. At the break, both of us having taken the T800 rebuy after starting with T500, we had identical T1700 stacks. At this point we settled on a $25.00 last longer bet and the real battle was joined. Fortunately for me, Rounder tried to run A3o past somebody who'd seen that move before and was sent to the rail around the time the blinds were 100/200. I collected my $25.00 and, free from the constraints imposed by having to outlast him, ready to soar like the eagle I know I can be.
By the time it got down to 2 tables, I had T9400 out of a total of T177,400. The prizepool was $28,500 and we were all in the money. My bust out hand occured when both tables were five handed and we were needing to eliminate one more for the final table. We had started with a field of 166, and the players who were left were all capable. I had T10,200 after antes and my sb, the antes were T200 and the blinds were T1000/T2000. Eskimo Clark opens UTG for T10,000. Brad Daugherty pushes all in for T27,500 and I look down to find AQo. The BB was absolutely going to pitch her hand away, forfeiting her T2,000. I was being offered T33,600 for my call. Brad and Eskimo had bumped heads a few minutes earlier and Brad had come back from T1700 to become the chip leader at our table. He had been playing very fast, moving in on many occasions. I put him on either a smaller pair or a worse A than mine. Eskimo could have had almost anything, but enough of his money was already in the pot from his opening raise to almost cover me, and there was a real chance he might back down and fold rather than chance busting out with two players all in, especially one who moved first with more than enough chips to cover him. I called. Flop came 7-8-7, turn was an A, and the river was a 9. Eskimo turns over AJs, I show my AQo hopefully, and Daugherty shows his AK. Somehow, the $355 prize for tenth place failed to make my disappointment fade away. Six hours is a lot of time to spend to produce a $135.00 profit. Of course, that doesn't include the $25.00 I took from Rounder in the last longer bet. If you count the $30 satellite loss and the $6.00 win in the 3-6, I booked a net poker win of $136.00 for the day. If you factor in the prospect of having gotten tantalizingly close to the real money payouts for first and second place, ($11,000 and $5,600) then I guess it was a worthwhile experience on the whole. O.K., to be totally honest, I enjoyed every minute of it and I'm sure I'll be back at it and doing it again in the near future.
Big John,
I think you should increase your last longer bet with Rounder.
NO thanks mah - don't give Big John any ideas.
Congrats! On your money finish wish you could have won it. I checked the bord this morning at 5am when I checked out of the hotel and smiled when I saw your name in the money I just wish my Phoenix friend Richard T. had scored too.
It always makes me happy when friends score - I just wish I were good eneough to make the final table last night.
BTW John you failed to mention the big loss 3/4 I took a I took a beat with A3o in the bb with no raise and flopped 3A's in cluding the As which made the raggad QhJs a winner with a spade flush. I went out with an all in bet AK that was called by a loose Englishman from Kent, England who had 88, I never improved.
The highlight of the trip was my 3rd (some high light) in the Commerce super satellite when I put a bad bead on John Bonetti - he was literally growelling at me for 20 Min. It was a real treat playing with a ledgon of Poker - He drew a crowd and we had 50 or so spectators watching John the master beat up this little Italian kid from Chicago. I held my own but he eventually wore me down.
Thanks. I am usually a tad depressed after a long tournament when I lose right before the money gets meaningful. It seems that a single pot becomes all the difference between making a nice payday and walking away with chump change and second guessing of yourself. I do know that I would have taken the same action in the same situation 100% of the time.
I hope you had a good flight back to Arizona. I'm thinking that it might be nice to spend a week or so in the Phoenix area in the late spring. If I can just convince the wife that a poker vacation in Arizona makes any kind of sense for her. I know that she might like it if there were artist cononies or something like that so she could have something pleasant to do herself.
Big John is welcome to Arizona any time - You can play in at least 8 tournaments a week here with at least two of them worth over $17K - we don't spread much Mexican whatever it is you play but I am sure with the 3 major casinos with card rooms you can find your nitch.
Cheers, Mike
Hi all.
Friday night I played in my 2nd NL HE tourney. It is a small tourney in Dubuque, IA. Only 18 entrants. $25 buy-in with one $25 rebuy anytime.
My game for NL is not very complicated, since I've only played it twice. I should mention that I am horrible at remembering the game situations, so I'll mainly be giving you an overview. I just play tight and aggressive until I get a feel for the flow of the game. I separate players into strong and weak with a few slots in between the two. Once I built a little confidence I began to make a few moves. The result was 3rd place. I came into third with $3000, when the blinds just happened to be $2000-1000. Guess how I got knocked out. The real heartbreaker is that only 1st and 2nd pay!!!
If anyone is interested in how I did in my first NL HE tourney. I split the pot with another guy, but I had a few chip lead at the end.
Anyway, even though I came in the most frustrating position possible, it was a lot of fun and I look forward to playing in this tournament as well as many others. If you feel like lending advice for the future, feel free.
Another note. I played in a 5-10 HE ring game after the tourney, and won $56.50 in three hours, which left me with a net $6.50 for the night. So, for now, the day job stays!
The blinds are T25-T50. There is a first position limper. I am in third position with pocket Q's. I raiseT150 to T200. I am called by position 5, the BB and the original opener. I have T750 when the hand begins. The flop is 79J rainbow. I bet my remaining T550. Position 5 calls with a set of 9's. What do youu believe to be my correct strategy preflop? on the flop?
I don't think you played the hand poorly. You made a pot-sized raise preflop, which is in line with standard NL strategy. Since this pot-sized raise did not require more than half of your chips, then there is no great need to go all-in preflop. In fact, you often want to save room for another pot-sized bet on the flop so that you can drive out a hand like AK without giving him 2 more cards to beat you for free (or cheap).
While the flop is coordinated, your raise wouldn't be called by a good player holding T8, or a 2 pair hand like J9. Thus, a set is your main concern, although J9 is still a possibility. However, given the situation, I thinking a check would be a mistake, as it would often give a free card to hands like TT, 88, and AK, hands which you're just as happy to lose at this point given their 6 live outs.
Too bad he outflopped you.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You were gonna lose this hand no matter how you played it. Unless the 99 thought you were so tight only to make a play with a big pair. Most would see the flop no matter what the bet if they hold a 99 unless they are good eneough to dump the med. pair. It's called bad luck.
BTW I push in preflop with the QQ here but I don't think I win with the move.
I think you played it fine. I would also have gone broke with this hand. Depending on the pocket nines chip position relative to yours, he might have called your all in bet preflop if you'd made it. There are some situations where you just have to accept that your timing was unfortunate.
I had QQ UTG in a recent no-limit tournament. I raised T300 with 50 100 blinds. A player who I thought was a maniac but was really a good player smooth called in late position. When rags flopped I bet another T300 and he went all-in which took all but T100 of my chips. He showed KK.
The moral of the story - when a good player just smooth calls your big raise in no-limit - watch out!!
Any comments about this hand welcome. Six handed, Blinds 100/200, I have 3500. I'm on the button. Two limp to me, I look down at AdQd and raise it to 1500, first limper calls, flop comes 289 rainbow, check check, turn is a 9, check check, river is K, check, I go all in.
Let me explain, I put the two limpers on relatively weak hands, based on previous play, both were fairly predictable. I was almost positive I held the best hand. Comments on my play from there are appreciated.
I think you are committed here I would have pushed in pre-flop and won it right there.
If I was almost positive I had the best hand, I'd be willing to check the hand down at this point. You are only going to be called if you are beaten for sure, and if I was your opponent with second pair or a decent pocket pair, I'd be suspicious of your river bet. Depending on my chip count here, I'm liable to look you up if you bet out like that and I can beat a stone bluff.
With 2 limpers already in, I don't like raising with the AQ, even suited. Unless I am pretty sure that I can get them to fold preflop (let's say, 75% likely), I'd rather see a cheap flop than commit so many of my chips preflop. AQ is a hand that can flop pretty big, and if you miss and they bet, it should be easy to get away from.
Now, if everyone checks to you on that flop, you can consider betting (let's say between 500 and 800). For all they know, you could have limped with 89. They will have to be psychic or have flopped something good themselves to call your bet. If one of them bets into you, or you are check-raised, easy fold.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Played this hand yesterday. PFR with AQ - sb and bb call. Flop comes K - 5 - 6 sb bets and bb folds I raise. sb shows K-2 and I win because of the PFR.
I am finding a large number of players who want to see the distributions in tournaments. Maybe paying 18 or 27 a bit more and/or redistributing the payout pool a little differently.
This isn't coming from someone who doesn't win so it isn't sour grapes but I'd like to see some debate from Badger, "Fossle man", Big John and anyother regular tournament player who wants to put their 2 cents worth in.
I have maintained for some time the reason for the high amount of chop deals is because of the top heavy pay out structure. I used to chop more and since the seniors at crystal park (where I made the worst deal of my life) I have not been chopping and it has paid off for me. But it is tempting to do a deal for a "save" when you look at the distribution and how the final table is such a crap shoot. I've won with smallest stack going in and came in 8th with 1/2 the chips.
I'd like to see something like 25% for 1st, 18% for 2nd and so on. I also would like to see full final tables paid off if there is more than 30 players.
Any comments:
Well, I wouldn't want to see 9 or 10 paid out of a field of 30, but I would prefer a flatter payout.
I would say you pay between 12-18% of the field, but you pay them a flatter amount, so finishing just in the money should pay at least double your buyin, and first probably no more than 20-25%. In a really large field, 15% may be enough for first place. Heck, if you win the Orleans Open with 1,000 players, 15% is equal to 150 times your buyin.
Here is a suggested structure if paying a 9 player final table, which would be typical if you started with about 100 players.
25 20 15 10 8 7 6 5 4 = 100%
With no jump greater than 5%, there really would be little incentive to deal.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg I ment to say 50 players not 30 for a full final table payout.
Maybe for 100 players, but what would you say for 50 ? I'm very happy with the payout structure in my local tournament, which is :
6th-9th, 3 buyins each 5th 5% of remainder 4th 10% 3rd 15% 2nd 25% 1st 45%
6th-9th being paid is only relevant to my strategy in how it affects others - to explain, in a $30 buy-in tournament I am not bothered by finishing 10th and missing out on $90. But many other people are (psychological need to be a winner ?) and they tighten up way too much when you get down to 12 players or so. Having two tables 5-6 handed much thievery is possible So I think it is important for all final places to be paid, from my POV.
I really wouldn't like to go to your 25-20-15... structure. Sure, there's no incentive to deal but there's hardly any more to play. Heads-up in a $4000 tournament, the winner gets $1000 and runner-up $800 - why bother playing heads-up ? The edge wouldn't be there. Wouldn't this apply in a larger tournament as well (in that heads-up play is only for 20% of what you already have) ?
I think most people want to deal through fear of ****ing it up. This fear is what I want to exploit at the final table. Nix the deals and press your advantage. I think the winner should be around 2x second place because winning should be what it's all about (and that's from a Brit !).
Andy.
I would favor something that is less top heavy for all tournaments of more than 100 participants.
100 to 200:
20-18-16-14-12-10-5-3-2= 100%
200+
15-13-10-9-8-6-5-4-3 (final table)=73%
2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2 (second table)=18%
1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1 (third table)=9%
One of the problems with tournaments is that if a group of players decide to even up their chips as they come up against each other in the tournament this will give them an unfair advantage. It just turns out that the mathematics of percentage payout tournaments makes this tactic stronger the more places that you pay. (This can easily be seen by realizing that if only one person got paid -- winner take all -- the chips would not change value and there would be no advantage to evening up.)
In a conversation that I had with Jim Albrecht several years ago about potential tournament abuses, I recommended that at the WSOP they go to paying out less places, not more. Of course, there are many other considerations to this issue which is why tournaments are moving towards paying more places, not less.
fortune should favour the brave. diluting the prize fund only encourages weak and timid play .lets play poker .
padraig wrote: "fortune should favour the brave. diluting the prize fund only encourages weak and timid play .lets play poker . "
I have only played poker for a brief time, but I used to race bicycles for a living. I found the exact opposite to be true when I was living off of my winnings.
In races with a flatter payout I could really lay it on the line and race aggressively because I knew I would at least make a reasonable amount even if I blew it. As a result I could always race to win.
In races that were extremely top heavy I often found myself racing not to lose instead of racing to win... because I needed to finish close to the top to pay my bills. I was also much more likely to make deals in these races.
Sean
Sean,
I agree with Padraig. What you are describing does happen, but if you are not one of the people who are playing "not to lose", you can exploit their fear to the maximum.
Andy.
Andy wrote...
"Sean,
I agree with Padraig. What you are describing does happen, but if you are not one of the people who are playing "not to lose", you can exploit their fear to the maximum. "
Then you DISagree with Padraig's assertion that flatter payouts encourage timid play and actually AGREE with my assertion that the reverse would be true.
Sean
Sean,
After I had posted that message I did think I had not made myself clear, so your comment is fair. I was really agreeing with Padraig in that I prefer a less flat payout structure because it enables the more aware (and fearless) players to exploit those who are playing timidly. The majority of players do play timidly because of the top-heavy payout structure. This enables the minority of aware/brave/reckless players to gain an advantage, so _their_ aggressive play is favoured by the top-heavy structure.
I hope I have made myself clear, whether you agree or not :-)
Andy.
Andy,
I would like to see an end to dealmaking. I would like to see an end to friends at the final table attacking strangers stacks while softplaying their friends in order to position their group for a higher percentage of the total prizepool payout. With the 40%-20%-10% top heavy payout, there is adequate incentive for dealmaking and collusion to continue. With a flatter payout structure I think you'd see more entrants in tournaments, not fewer. A flatter payout allows the better players a lower overall variance also. Most people believe that final table deals are bad for the perceived integrity of the game, and hurt chances of getting corporate sponsorship. I think flatter payouts are the future anyway, and should be embraced now to pave the way for other improvements that are bound to come.
John is correct here. The collusion is rampant in tournaments and at the final table a couple of pals have leverage on a 3rd party. At least that is what I believe when I come in 3rd. I am sure they rest of the world is against me. :-0)
But seriously - the current top heavy payouts needs a look at along with standadized rules for tournaments that is where I think the 2 major poker magazines can take a leadership role.
.
If a man is fortunate enough to pick up AA UTG, makes a T70,000 bet, then gets raised all-in by the table chip leader who has QQ, then gets his hand to stand up, he is certainly entitled to believe that "fortune should favor the brave". You must be aware that fortuitous timing in big tournaments is critical to having good results. Look at the difference between your payout and Hal's. If the situation had been reversed and he had made it T70,000 when you had QQ, would you have pushed all in? It is the cumulative total of many such occurrances that argue for a flatter payout structure.
the 70000 was not a raise but a reraise after the qq had flatcalled a 15000 raise. i suspect i was called only because i had been playing aggressively all day.so i got lucky in that i got called and got such a dodgy hand as two aces to stand up . sorry.
p.s. if i ever have to lose such a pot i would hope it is to a guy like mr kant who i consider to be a very sporting gentleman.
Padraig,
I was referring to the good fortune to hold AA *and* having someone with lots of chips holding QQ at that same time. Most of us, at critical points in a tournament, have had AA and gotten nothing but the antes and blinds. My comment on that particular hand was not to disparage either player or the play, but to point out that, even in the biggest tournaments, and with the best of players, payouts are grossly affected by a single, pivotal hand. I favor a less top-heavy payout structure.
if you ever do decide to disparage a player or a play ill take two tickets .
I'll make sure they are front row center.
glad to see all this diluting hasnt extended to your sense of humour.ill buy the drinks.
:-)
Crazy Pineapple tournament, down to 10 players out of 44. Blinds are T1000 & T500 and betting limits are T1000 & T2000. I'm in the BB w/AH, KH, JD. I have T8000 before I post the BB. The table is very loose. The betting was capped when it got to me and I called an additional T3000 pre-flop. Five of us take the flop. The flop comes AC/JH/JS. I bet T1000 and one player UTG calls. I know he can't have pocket aces as an ace was flashed pre-flop. When I bet I discarded the KH. The turn card brought the QS. Here is where I got the worst of it. After the turn card fell, I noticed my opponent had three cards and didnot discard one when he called my bet on the flop. I didn't say anything. The T Rules state his hand should be dead. He noticed when I bet T2000 on the turn and gave the discard to the dealer. No Tourney floor was called. I didn't object because I wanted to get another T1000 from him on the river. The river brought the QC. I bet my last T1000 and he called and won the pot with QHTH. He won one heck of a T28000 pot! Any thoughts? Would any of you called the floor when you found that you lost on the river and knew he had a dead hand?
The dealer should have called the floor. When he didn't, you should have. If you let a player decide to discard after the turn when you do so at the flop, he's got a huge advantage. His hand was dead. Even after you allowed it by not speaking up, after the showdown you should have called the floorman over and explained exactly what happened. You should have told the floorman that you didn't say anything because you had a "mortal cinch" and wanted to extract every last penny from your opponent. With all that information, he still would have given you the pot. Next time, insist that the rules be followed even if you lose a big advantage by doing so.
I would have called the floor immediately - screw the extra grand I want the hand killed right there.
I don't think what you did was morally wrong, but it was an error.
Since he called on the flop, he must have some shot at winning (it isn't likely he's drawing dead, even if he only has runner-runner outs). Since this pot was so massive preflop, I would rather win it now, and not risk losing 22 bets in search of 1 or 2 more. Even if he doesn't have 22:1 (or 22:2, whatever) odds, and it is a +EV situation in terms of chips, this is a tournament. To risk your last 28K or thereabouts to gain 1 or 2K more is a mistake at the final table of a tournament, even if it would be a good play in a ring game.
Take the 22K, be the chip leader, and play on.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It is really frustrating for a guy like me who plays tournaments in 3 states and many casinos.
In Reno at the pot of gold tournament I accidentally expose my hand after going all in and I get it killed it was a winner and the other 2 guys left in the tournament benefited from my misfortune.
Yesterday we are 8 handed at the final table with 1 all in and 2 still playing the all in shows his hand to one if the players still plsying the hand and the "floor" who I called says hand is live - I asked for a real floor man and this guy was offended I apologized later but I thought it was a bad call. Big chip rule is another that varys from casino to casino and state to state. Chip up or race (which kind of race). Digging cards out of the muck. I am ready to scream.
I would like to see an effort to standardize the rules of tournament poker. If I am playing golf in Singapore I know the rules because they are the same as in Chicago.
I don't question many calls but I get a little sick of some inexperienced tournament director making bad calls and effecting peoples income.
Comments:
This post is just to let people know that if they want to hear some good news about payouts at Foxwood's poker tournaments, they should read my post in the events section. I figure that since there are so few posts there, many of you may not visit that forum.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Today In a limit HE tournament - I played a 3h5h on the button - flopped a flush and bet it out like the nuts finally the bb was left on the river he checked I bet and showed my baby flush he showed a 6h8h and I lose.
What could I have been thinking of - I never play that crap - why???? cuz you can catch the flush and lose like that. Guess I have been spending to much time in So California - suited 53 is a premium hand out there I hear. Well eneough whining about my bad play.
I have to get the self control to muck those "good looking" cards - Badger is right self control is the key to success in poker. I used to have it hope I can get it back.
Rounder,
I don't believe it! Shame on you. Go read your T.J. Cloutier book. Suited is the kiss of death with small cards.
Rounder should know to only play the 35o, since that is a hand that is easy to get away from post flop. These guys who play any two suited cards, they're just asking for it. ;<)
Actually, the 3-5 suited is better than unsuited. But, you have to remember you do not want the flush. I say it is better, because the person with the nut flush draw of the same suit has less outs to make his hand. But, when it gets there you're in trouble. You need to dump it if you didn't get a set, two pair, or a straight. In a multiway pot you need to treat it just as if it was not suited. The only bonus you get from being suited is that it reduces your opponents odds.
I disagree (with ignoring the suited nature of 53s, assuming that you play it in the first place). In a no-limit tournament, where you might face a tough decision for your whole stack on a later street, that might be wise. But Rounder said he was playing in a limit tournament. In that case, if you do make the flush, it is very likely that you currently have the best hand. But it is vulnerable to reverse implied odds - any fourth card of your suit basically kills your hand (unless it gives you the SF), and the board pairing also isn't good for you. In a 9-handed showdown simulation, 3h5h with a board of Qh8h4h was best on the flop around 80% of the time, dropping to 48% by the river. So in limit holdem, I think you have to play this hand fast if you do make the flush, to charge all those single high cards the maximum for their draws, while trying to be alert to the possibility that someone else might have you beat already. You do need to be careful if all you have is the flush draw, given the increased possibility that it might not be good if you make it.
Remember, when you do make the flush, you have accounted for 5 of the 13 cards in your suit already, which decreases the chances that someone else also was dealt two cards in your suit. Or another way of looking at it is that if someone does have two cards of your suit, it is less likely that you will make the flush in the first place; hence when you do make it, it is less likely that they had a higher flush. It's a simple application of Bayes' Law.
Don't forget the possiblity that you flop something like an open-ended straight draw and get a backdoor flush while drawing for the straight. In that case, it is less likely that a higher flush would have stuck around if there was much action on the flop, and you don't need to worry about the solo high cards redrawing on you.
Dave,
In a cash game I may agree with you depending on your opponents, but in a tournament you can not afford to lose chips on marginal hands. I'm assuming Rounder raised on the flop and got called. It's a hand that will cost you precious chips in a tournament. You can't dig in your wallet to buy more chips.
The point I was making is you're not playing the 3-5 suited for the flush. You really want a straight, a set, or two pair.
This is my point exactly on playing suited cards from 9 on down. I have identified the leak and it is a big one. I usually don't play "anything" but premium hands before the break - strategy is to get rid of the rif raf loose players and settle down and lay a bit looser post break. I picked up this virus in LA and it has taken me 2 weeks of bad play and agony to get rid of it. I may never set foot in California again.
And my point is that once you actually make the flush, it's not a marginal hand anymore. Preflop it's a marginal hand. But once you decide to play it, and the gods are good enough to actually give you the flush, you need to play it hard. In a limit tournament, I don't think you are going to find so many good opportunities that you can afford to pass on ones where it is 80% likely that you have the best hand. And that 80% assumes that your opponents will play any two suited cards - if they actually fold stuff like T2s preflop, the odds that you are currently best will be even higher. If you're not going to play the flush hard when you flop it, then the decision to play 53s preflop isn't even marginal anymore - it's just plain crappy, because you are giving up a major chunk of the limited value the hand does have.
Remember, chips that you fail to win from your opponents are every bit as much lost to you as chips that actually come out of your stack. They may not be worth quite as much (becase of the decreasing marginal utility of additional chips), but their value is still significant.
I would rather discuss this situation if I knew the exact details of the play of the hand. Otherwise, in general, I'll agree with T.J. Cloutier and Tom McEvoy. You can read what they say about it in their new book Championship Hold'em.
Last night at Foxwoods I played in a NL tourney for the first time. I expected to bust out early, but I busted out SO early I made 1 rebuy. Then I made it to the 5th level with a small stack, but realized I hadn't done any contingency planning for lasting so long --I was so tired that with a 90 minute drive home, if I stayed much longer it wouldn't be a very safe drive.
I experienced some confusion about how much to bet, and even about whether to call, raise or fold -- it's so different from limit. I noticed a lot of pre-flop calling with garbage -- presumably because implied odds are so high if you flop something. Is that typical? Is it good no-limit play? I played tightly pre-flop and but lost a lot betting way too aggressively on a few hands.
All in all, fun. Wish they had'em on weekends so I could try again.
Kate,
No-Limit Hold'em is a game full of traps and tricks. You're right, it is completely different from limit, except limit tourneys are played like no-limit when the stacks of chips get short. I recommend two books that will help you understand this game. Get T.J. Cloutier's Campionship No-Limit Pot-Limit Hold'em and Brunson's Super/System.
I like Brunson's book the best because it gives you good stategies for breaking players. Even though the book is from the 70's, people still fall for the same old tricks.
mah, Thanks. Believe it or not, I have read SuperSystem through several times and still managed to be confused, but probably it will stick with me more now. Have just received Cloutier's book today. SuperSystem is my favorite poker book of all so far.
Kate
Kate I like to make a fairly standard bet pre flop so they can't put me on a hand say $100. If I am in late position and have a good hand but one I really don't want called I'll make a big bet.
Trick to NL is to play the stacks, players and situations more than the cards. Putting a player to a decision for all his/her chips is the key here.
Here is an example.
NL HE tournament 1st hand blinds 10-20 - 5 limpers beting $50 - I make it $100 with TT all called.
T$500 in pot - flop 885 - $50 by UTG called now T$600 in and I go all in - get called by UTG and other player.
I lose to UTG with AA he turned out to be a very weak player who didn't bet his hand. I re bought and carried on.
Given the same circumstances woth the same betting patterns I probably do the same thing.
Rounder, Thanks for your response. Every example helps, especially now that I've gotten my feet wet. Kate
Kate wrote: >I experienced some confusion about how much to bet, >and even about whether to call, raise or fold -- it's >so different from limit. I noticed a lot of pre-flop >calling with garbage -- presumably because implied >odds are so high if you flop something. Is that >typical? Is it good no-limit play? I played tightly >pre-flop and but lost a lot betting way too >aggressively on a few hands.
Calling with a wide variety of hands is acceptable if 2 criteria are met. First, the call has to represent a small portion of your stack. Second, you have to make better decisions than your opponents postflop. So, play Q9s for T10 out of T200 preflop, but only if you can know pretty well when your hand is good and when it isn't postflop.
It happens a lot in this tournament, especially during the rebuy period. A stack is T200, and the blinds for the first 3 levels are 5,5; 5,10; and 10,15; respectively. These are low enough that you will often see 4-9 players seeing the flop with no raise. However, most of these players are bad enough that they do NOT meet the second criteria.
Betting aggressively is generally a good thing. However, you have to temper your aggression. If you raise preflop with AK, get called in 4 spots, bet a flop of 995, and get called, it's time to consider giving up the hand. At that point, you have to seriously consider that you don't have the best hand, AND that you're not going to get the other player to fold. There is no point to bluffing when you know they won't fold, and there's no point to value betting if you don't think you have the best hand. Thus, time to shut down.
The most important thing in NL HE tournaments is finding good situations. Your hand is secondary to that. If you see that the blinds look ready to fold, you should be ready to raise with anything. If you see that the big blind is ready to call, don't raise with that AJs, because your steal won't work. Either call and see a cheap flop, or fold and completely eliminate the risk. If you detect that your opponent likes the flop, be more inclined to check and/or fold. Consider the situation first, and THEN consider the cards.
>All in all, fun. Wish they had'em on weekends so I >could try again.
Come back in April for the New England Poker Classic. There are 2 NL HE tourneys, and 1 of them is on a Saturday, April 8 ($120 w/ 1 optional rebuy for $100). A full schedule of events can be found at foxwoods.com.
Of course, we will be glad to have you come back on a Tuesday night between now and then as well. However, don't expect to see me. My wife has orchestra practice on Tuesday, and I take care of our 3yo daughter. For the last 2 weeks she hasn't had practice, so I've been able to make some money instead.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, Thank you for the tips. How did you do? Sounds like you placed in the money. Yes, I'll definitely check out the NEPC in April. I don't think I'll be able to recognize you from your description, but maybe I'll get lucky. I'll be the medium-sized woman without rocks ("rocks on the table"??). "Fossilman" makes you sound rather elderly, but a 3 yr. old daughter makes you sounds young, at least in spirit. My 2 children have grown and flown.
Kate
When I see look for the guy with rocks on the table, I'm speaking completely literally. I sell fossils to people at the cardroom, and I always have 3-5 samples on the table in front of me. They all make good card protectors, which is how I got started.
BTW, if you're a 2+2 person, and want a deal, ask me for your price away from everyone else. If I say $15 to someone at the table, I'll probably be able to sell it to you for $10 or less in "private". I always give a better deal to my rgp and 2+2 buddies.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hmmm... I seem to remember one guy who had something that might have been a rock on his cards. If there was a woman at your table, it was probably me. Glad I know what to look for.
Kate
Well Kate, I recall 2 women. The first sat on my immediate right at the beginning of the tournament, had dark hair, was very new to tournaments, and I provided her with much advice as to the procedures. She was with a gentlemen whom I believed she referred to as her boyfriend. The second was moved to my table later, sat in seat 1, had straight red/brown hair, and glasses. I don't recall her saying anything, nor did I say anything to her.
There certainly may have been other women there, but they weren't at my table and I don't recall. Maybe we met. Either way, feel free to say hi if you see me again.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I was wrong, we were at different tables. I was almost late, didn't look around to see who else was there. I was at table 3, moved to table 4. Certainly, I will say hi. BTW, I have blond hair. Kate
Posted by: Kate (kate@thegassers.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 10 February 2000, at 8:53 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 10:55 a.m.
Posted by: Kate (kate@thegassers.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 4:56 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 5:24 p.m.
Posted by: Kate (kate@thegassers.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 February 2000, at 8:17 p.m.
Just reading over the money boards in the last 5 or 6 WSOP's, and never saw Sklan, Mal, or Zee on the site. Just wondering, do they ever play in the big dance? And if so, how have they fared? Not only in the NL final event, but any events.
Jordan V.
Last weekend in LA at a $300 buy in limit tournanent and Tues night in Phoenix $50 buy in (both had unlimited rebuys for the first 3-4 rounds.
In LA besides me and this really nice woman (and good player) there were 8 very loose (some maniacs) asian players. Capped pre flop was the order of the day and 2-3 bet on the flop & turn was also common.
In Phoenix I had 4 of these maniacs at my table. Doing the same thing.
Now most hands were just crap J7, Q5 pair of 3's Q high winning hands. Eneough to make you puke.
In a tournament in a situation like this I get hand cuffed. I can't bring myself to call 4 bets with a Q9 but I should. These wack jobs are making 4 bets with Axo - 63o and J5o (suited or not) doesn't make any difference. Maybe I should play their game but just a bit better.
You can't put them on a hand, no way.
It isn't my style but what is one to do in this situation close your eyes, fasten your seat belt and go for the ride????
Not like a ring game where I can wait it out until the personality of the game changes or change tables.
Frustrating - can't isolate anyone.
Maybe I'll stick to NL Tournaments. Naw I continue to play in th elimit tournaments but I have to learn to be more flexible.
Just read a post that got me thinking - these sorts of situations call for "gambling" and I really hate gambling like this.
I have heard many people give the advice that you should play a notch tighter than the maniacs. I think this is a big mistake. I think you play 90% as profitably against them by playing super-tight, and you will reduce your swings by an order of magnitude (well, that's an exaggeration, but you know what I mean).
Wait for the truly premium hands. Even when you get them, you will still have to do some gambling, because you can't fold KK just because there's an A or a pair on the flop (unless it's one or more of the other non-maniacs doing the betting).
If there are numerous maniacs or others seeing the flop, then you can add in the suited aces or any pair. However, I would not add in suited connectors or other drawing hands, as it is too easy to hit flops that you barely have odds to draw at, and they once again drive up your variance.
The unfortunate aspect of this type of table in a tournament is that blinds are going up, and you're getting blinded away waiting for a premium hand. Often, you won't get one, or it won't hold up, and you're in a big hole for that tournament. The good part, especially if it's a rebuy tournament, is that when you do catch a couple of good hands that hold up, you will be the chip leader for the whole event. Plus, when it comes down to the real tournament play later on, you will be the big stack who knows what to do, while the lucky few maniacs who are there will still be playing stupidly. Overall, this is definitely a +EV tourney, just like it's a +EV ring game against these guys. The only bad part is that they drive your fluctuations through the roof.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree, tighter is the play here. When you do come in with your premium starters, you should become just as maniacal as they are. In small rebuy tournaments, this is my favorite kind of table. I gamble early and then sit on a big stack waiting for someone to make a mistake when I have a real hand.
When it is $300 with $300 rebuys, I would forget early gambling and wait for AA, KK, QQ and AK. Depending on position, I might make a try for the blinds with AQ, AJ or JJ and 1010. If you can double your stack once during the first three levels you will be OK in this type of tournament.
This Saturday at 11:00 A.M. at Crystal Park they will be having a double elimination No Limit Hold'em Match Play Tournament. The buy-in is $100 plus $20 in "juice". This tournament is part of ESCARGOT, a rec. gambling.poker get together. If you plan on attending and haven't registered for Escargot, call Crystal Park or email Lou Krieger. You can find his email address on rgp. I played in this tournament last year and it was a lot of fun. Hope to see you there.
John, can you expalin the format.
Thanks Mike
Mike,
Each participant draws a table and the two people play a head's up match until one is busted. Winner goes on in the winner's bracket and loser goes to the loser's bracket. You keep playing until there is a single player left undefeated and a single player with only one loss. Those two play each other. If the undefeated player wins, the tournament is over, if the once defeated player wins, they play one more match against each other for the championship. Last year Doug Sohn, a prop at Crystal Park, defeated Mike Caro for the Championship. Mike Caro is an author, lecturer, spokeperson for Planet Poker, computer programmer, and, rumor has it, has an IQ somewhere in the three figure range.
There has been a lot of discussion related to this in the thread below entitled "Pitbull Lloyd's Article...". Here are some excerpts, and my thoughts. It seemed worth starting a new thread.
padraig wrote: "fortune should favour the brave. diluting the prize fund only encourages weak and timid play. lets play poker."
Sean wrote: "I have only played poker for a brief time, but I used to race bicycles for a living. I found the exact opposite to be true when I was living off of my winnings. In races with a flatter payout I could really lay it on the line and race aggressively because I knew I would at least make a reasonable amount even if I blew it. As a result I could always race to win. In races that were extremely top heavy I often found myself racing not to lose instead of racing to win... because I needed to finish close to the top to pay my bills. I was also much more likely to make deals in these races."
Andy wrote: "I was really agreeing with Padraig in that I prefer a less flat payout structure because it enables the more aware (and fearless) players to exploit those who are playing timidly. The majority of players do play timidly because of the top-heavy payout structure. This enables the minority of aware/brave/reckless players to gain an advantage, so _their_ aggressive play is favoured by the top-heavy structure."
I think Padraig got it right, Andy got it half-right, and Sean picked the wrong analogy.
As Padraig and Andy indicate, aggressive play is more rewarded in a top-heavy payout structure, especially a winner-take-all structure. In these events, you need to win a lot of chips to reach the big paying spots. Aggressive play promotes your chances of winning lots of chips, at the risk of going broke earlier (than playing more timidly). As such, a timid player will do better in a flatter paying event, as mere survival is more rewarded by that structure.
I think Andy is only half-right because I do not agree with him that players play more timidly because of the top-heavy payout. I think they play more timidly because it's not winner-take-all, and would play even more timidly in a flatter structure.
I think Sean picked the wrong analogy. His situation, when he raced bikes, appears to have been that he could take it relatively easy on himself, and finish high enough to make some money. But, if he pushed himself hard enough to win, he would sometimes burn out and finish in the back of the pack instead. However, I don't know anyone in poker who can take it easy on themselves and still finish 4th.
In a poker tournament, if there are 12 remaining and 10 being paid, you might avoid some risks to reach the money, even if you think you're a slight favorite. For example, if the aggressive player on the button raises all-in, and you're holding a small pair in the big blind, you would fold if 10th place money was more than nominal. If you needed to reach 3rd place or better to make any real money, you should call, because he probably doesn't have an overpair, and as such you are probably a slight favorite. Thus, a flatter payout would encourage you to fold, while a top heavy payout would encourage you to play.
As for my opinion, I prefer the flatter payout. Why? I am perfectly capable of being highly aggressive (just ask Bill Seymour). However, I know very few players who are able to do a good job of balancing their aggression, turning it on and off as called for. Contrarily, there are many players who are good at playing continually aggressive poker (e.g., Bonetti). Thus, I think my edge is larger with a flatter payout, as I think I can make better than average decisions regarding my pace of play.
Padraig says fortune should favor the brave. I think fortune should favor the (most) capable. In my opinion, bravery by itself (without intelligence, wisdom, etc. to guide it) is useless.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
An excellent post. Let me say that I am much less experienced than most posters on this and other topics, and that I have only played in small (less than $100) tournaments to date, so my comments really apply primarily to these. I think it would be a shame if the edge were reduced from the tournaments I play in because I love the tension and the buzz when it gets short-handed and your decisions make a real $$ difference.
In response to comments from John and Rounder suggesting that collusion is a problem and flatter payouts might be a solution, yes it is a problem but I think we all know that the best solution would be for cardrooms to crack down on it. How ? you say - I didn't say it would be easy. But reducing payouts to stop collusion is I feel giving in to the people who do it because they haven't got the bottle to make tough decisions when it really matters. I don't like collusion (or deals to a lesser extent) any more than anyone else but I think it would be wrong to "water down" tournaments for this reason.
I appreciate that this is more difficult with larger amounts of money on the line than I play for, but you know the rules before you enter :-).
Andy.
I think you need more payout spots to attract more players. Who would want to play in a major tournament that only payed 5 places after 400 people paid $500 to enter. Since, most players realize that the top players usually end up in the top money positions they would not bother entering.
Last night NL HE tournament.
Flop T 9 J rainbow two players turn 8 river 7 - lady player betting all the way caller just calling all the way. Showdown lady shows KJ says Jacks - sleepy player mucks hand says I can't beat jacks. I asked him what he had he said QK couldn't pair up.
Two other players realized what just happened and gasped. OH WELL - why can't that ever happen to me.
Is it possible that some of these outrageous players that I consider loose maniacs are in fact cheating.
Why not? Say 3 or 4 get together and decide to play everyhand in the rebuy period. Beat or lose to your pal and when the rebuy period is over lose all your chips to one guy so he goes on to play serious tight poker with a heap of chips.
I think this happened Tues night at a tournament I played in.
Is it possible. Pot was $20+k so it was well worth it.
Even paraniocs have real enemies.
I've been playing these tournaments almost since the casino opened, and I don't believe there is anything funny going on, as these maniacs have many a time donated their chips to me, and I know I'm not part of the collusion scheme. If their collusion scheme infact entails donating to those outside their ring, I'd hazard they need to retool the plan.
And even if they were to refine such that the chips stayed "in house," it's bad tourney mathematics to pump up the prize fund thus.
Not only have I not seen anything nefarious, I'm up lots of money playing these, so I feel pretty comfortable, tho I'm unsure if this is enough to allay your discomfort.
Regards,
JG
Jim it was a bizar hour with these guys.
Making 4 bets with J7o UTG and going to the river raising all the way with a pair of 7's the other guy had 3's with a Q3 and nothing else going. What's up with that.
I am sure you are right but this guy gets all the chips from these 2 guys and then starts playing tight after the break.
Very wierd.
Rounder,
Read Oklahoma Johnny Hale's book for an exact description of "Tournament Gangs" and "Backers". What you describe is EXACTLY what he writes about in his book.
Mike R. TheKiller
Sounds interesting. Does he offer any advice as to what to do when confronted with collusion, or how to adjust your play ?
Thanks,
Andy.
If they're cheating you by this methodology, go ahead and let them, as they're really cheating themselves.
By combining all their rebuys into one player's stack, they're do themselves a disservice. It is pretty well accepted that chips are individually worth less in a big stack than in a small stack. It really is more valuable to even out the stacks if you're colluding with others.
Of course, during the rebuy period, you're still so far from the money that every chip is worth almost exactly the same amount, no matter how big or small a stack it is in. Thus, at this stage, any partners who are purposefully transferring chips from one stack to another aren't doing much good for themselves. Once you get near the money, then partners who even their stacks can gain a noticeable edge.
I think the more realistic concern is simply partners who know how to play well to WIN chips from you. If they know that they've got you beat, and can raise each other to trap you for more chips, they will gain. If they know when they don't have you beat, but can raise and make you fold, they will gain. If ALL they know how to do is transfer chips to each other, they cannot gain that big of an edge.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
ROUNDER has found his purpose in life, apart from playing poker. He is now on the 2+2 staff filling up every forum with his thoughts. I ask you all...where would this forum be if it wasn't for ROUNDER? Maybe ROUNDER should start changing names with each posting, to make this 2+2 site LOOK more popular.Could someone ELSE please share their thoughts on 2+2!
Sorry if I am over posting I am addicted I tried the 12 step programme but failed. If I am doing something wrong, OH Dazzler of the poker tables I will gladly change to accomidate the great one.
What exactly is your major malfunction?
I, for one, have enjoyed Rounder's posts to this forum. Many of the forum participants, myself included, don't contribute as often as we should. This will be one of my poker resolutions: To contribute to the forum more often. In the meantime, I appreciate Rounder's posts.
Dazzy,
My best Aussie mate Phil White who lives in Perth is the best most fearless gambler in your wonderful land. I am thinking of teaching him hold'em - so watch out you may be challenged soon.
Phil is the sort of lad who likes to make one big bet rather than a lot of smaller ones - I have seen him put Thousands of pounds on one hand of black jack or a not to favored horse. He is perfectly suited for big bet poker. So look out Dazzy there is a real Dazzler in Oz and his name is Phil.
That's right I'm on the Dazzler's side! Rounder, bah humbug! I'm tired of you Italian guys hogging up all the internet space here on 2+2. Why, you would think that this is your forum. Fogettaboutit! I don't care! Yeah, I don't care if your posts are informative! Big deal if you give us insight into this game we love! Who cares that your tournament strategy works! Your a straight talker. So what! Bah, Bah, Bah Humbug. Listen Rounder, I'm Italian also but no one ever accused me of posting too much. Wait, is that right? Noone ever ever said that I didn't post enough? No , I got it everone, said shut the f... up to me! Yeah that was it. Same thing.
Well Dazzler I tried. I hope that helps keep Rounder from posting. Now about that audtion for the Poker Movie for Australian TV. I could play the Steve McQueen part. Cincinatti or in my case "Beantown Kid". Call me.
Thanks Rounder for giving me this opportunity to take advantage of your wonderful posting here on 2+2.
Vince.
Vince,
Back to normal I see.
paul
Calling all female Arizona Hold'em players. I need a partner for a tournemtent at Casino Arizona it's a $5000 added event. I am hoping there are some lurkers out there who want to play in this mixed gender team tournament. I know few women and the ones that play reguraly already have team mates.
I'll pay the entry fees.
E-mail me if you want to play.
http://www.tiltboys.com/trip-reports/sex-stigmas-out/
.. and it's damn funny as well. Apologies if you've seen this before.
Andy.
Andy funny stuff.
I just got an e-mail from a friend offering to get one of his wives maternity dresses on if I can't find a real woman partner.
Rounder,
You need to think more laterally. A better plan would be for you to wear the dress and then take your pick from all the other players looking for a partner. Maybe they'll pay _your_ entry fee. Make it clear that's all they're paying for though :-).
Andy.
Maybe I can get my old Scotty pal Archie Kane to come with his kilt. :-)
Hey you know why Scottsmen wear kilts.
Cuz zippers scare the sheep.
Any help for a beginner when it comes to tournament play? I've never stepped foot in a cardroom either, although I've been playing poker for many years at home games. I normally play $1-3 or $2-4$ spread limit games - I consistantly beat my opponents but never thought to step up the stakes. Anyway, I'm travelling through Las Vegas and heard the Luxor on Thur mornings has a very small limit tournament that I felt I could start off on. And other help on what to expect etc would be great. I'd hate to become shark bait - but I'm expecting to be on tilt from not knowing what to expect.
Thanks, J.
Since you say you already know how to play, we'll take that as a given.
Early on, just play your normal best game, doing your best to win (or avoid losing) chips.
Once you and/or others become short stacked, but you are still far from the money, you can continue to play your normal best game, with one exception. Pay attention to the stack size of yourself and others. If you need implied odds to justify playing a hand, it will often not be there because you or your opponent are going to run out of chips early in the hand.
Once you get close to the money, it's finally time for tournament strategy to really come into play. You need to be careful against players who can bust or cripple you, often be more aggressive against the short to medium stacks, and often you need to avoid situations where you think you're a small favorite.
Think about why someone might be doing what they're doing before you act. E.g., if someone raises all-in first to act, they may just have a slightly better than average hand, and would prefer to play it now rather than get a random hand in the big blind. If they raise first in with a medium stack, they're taking an unnecessary risk, so their hand is more likely to be very strong. There are thousands of other examples, you just need to consider what might be going on, and then hopefully make the right choice.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg's advice is very good let me ad this.
In tournaments the single thing that has helped me the most is avoiding T on down drawing hands. Like 45s and 89o. I stick to the big cards and pairs. I will see all pairs for a no or small raise I recon a set of 2's is as good as any set as set over set is so rare.
You have to be very flexible with table changes and blinds going up all the time.
Play becomes more situational and position takes on a whole net meaning.
When the blinds get big and you are inposition with limpers or no callers you cam steal blinds from the "right" players. Don't try to steal from the big stack and or an aggressive player.
I wish you success.
J.
I have played in the Luxor's daily noontime tournament several times on my Vegas trips. Don't worry too much about not knowing what to expect. I have gone there with complete beginners who needed instruction throughout the tournament. There are a few regulars but no one is that high caliber; in fact, I think the cardroom manager tries to make sure that no one shows up there to fleece. Stick to the advice of Greg and Rounder and relax and you'll do just fine. I placed second on my first time in Vegas, when I had never played in a tournament before. Maybe I'll see you there tomorrow (2/12)--I'm heading to Vegas after work tonight.
KJS
Hey guys, thank you so much for the advice. Actually I'm not going to be in Vegas for another month, but thought I'd plan ahead. Check out the sights and sounds, and of course the poker tables.
Again your advice has been great.
J.
No Limit Tournament.
During the course of play, I had determined that the button had targeted me for bluffing when I was in the Big Blind. Whenever it was folded around to him, he would always raise two and a half times the pot. I generally folded although once at the 50/100 level, I did reraise all in and he folded. He was an aggressive player who often bet or raised others with questionable holdings.
Blinds are now at the 100/200 level and will probably increase to 200/400 before it gets back to me. I have 1500 in my stack and he has about 2000. He raises to 700. I hold A9o. Should I raise all in? My feeling was that I probably had the best hand, but that I couldn't be much better than a slight favorite if he called and I might be a big underdog. The problem with not taking a stand on this hand was that I would be short stacked after the next round.
Thanks, Calvin
Fold. You are not playing limit holdem and this is a tournament. Look for a better situation to play your precious chips. Chips become dearer the less you have. Oddly enough, you may want to raise all in with A,9o if you are first in from late position given the same chip position and blind levels. But against a raiser, even one that stretchs his hand requirement, this is not a good play. Especially since you have played back against him once already. Fold and wait a little while longer.
Vince.
raise. if youre sure youre his selected target youre probably a mile in front.if he holds what hes supposed to have he may pass as calling is going to leave him in the shit if you have what youre supposed to have. if the hand does stand up nobody in their right mind is going to try to make a career out of picking out your big blind as a handy way of adding to their stack. if it all goes horribly wrong memorise vinces emminently sound and sensible advice and find a target of your own. what did he have anyway ?
Do not know as I folded. However the predictable happened as I picked up JJ a little later and the BB was able to call me down rather cheaply with A5s. That is the real reason I made this post. If I had doubled through the thief, the BB would not have had such an easy call in the hand that eliminated me.
"vinces emminently sound and sensible advice "
Thank you padraig. But after further review I will concede that your aggressive approach will probably make you a better tournament player than mine.
vince.
Tough spot. What makes it so tough is that you can't raise enough to guarantee him folding. If you raise all-in (and there's no reason to raise less), there will be T2300 in the pot, with him needing to put in T800 more to call. As such, the only way he should fold is if he gives you credit for a pocket pair higher than both his cards. So, unless he's on a complete bare-ass steal, he will likely call. Now, if he's got some hand like Q7, K8, JT, then his call isn't terrible for you. You would prefer he fold, but if he calls as a dog, you're the favorite to win a big pot.
What do you think he had? What are the chances he has a better A or a pair, especially a pair 99 or higher? If you think he's raising with 100% of his cards in this spot, you should reraise all-in. If you think he's being selective now that the blinds are larger and you've shown him you can play back, then folding looks better.
How close are you to the money? If it's close, be much more inclined to fold. If you fold through these blinds, you'll still have T1200. With blinds of T200,400, you'll have enough for a full raise for the next 6-8 hands, until you're the big blind. As such, you can wait to be first in with a good hand and steal the blinds yourself.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Limit hold-em tourney: What is the "deadline" for making a stand when you're short-stacked? Should you do it before you get below a full hand's worth of bets (say, 3-4 big bets) so you can win a full pot? Or if your cards are hopeless is it better to go another round? Today I foolishly passed on J9o, Axo, and KTo when the level was due to go up soon, leaving me with only about 2 big bets. I ended up busting out with a pair of 9's. Thanks in advance. Kate
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
The KT in preference to the Ax? Why? Because it has more straight potential and one extra high(ish) card? But doesn't the Ax have more unimproved winning potential?
Problem with waiting for a good hand when the chips are dwindling is your position gets worse too. That said I will make a move with less than desirable hands If I get a Ax or a couple of paints KT is OK too. This play takes on the aspects of NL HE as if you committ you are in for all the chips in front of you.
Look for situations.
There is no specific deadline, IMO. However, once you get below 3-4 big bets, you may get played with by people JUST because you can only cost them those 1-2.5 big bets. If you've got the goods, great. If you're raising with KTo and hoping to steal the blinds, then bad.
Look for a good situation, and realize that the shorter your stack, the less good the situation needs to be before you go for it.
Wait, I just realized that my sentence above is misleading. If you're the chip leader, then you can relax your standards, i.e., more situations are playable. Once your stack is middle-sized, you need to tighten up and only play really good situations. You have enough chips to be worth protecting, and are not desperate to win a pot soon before being blinded off. Then, as your stack shrinks down to 3-4 big bets, you need to relax your standards again, relaxing them more as you get shorter.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Here's a hand I played yesterday where I'm still not sure what I should have done. PL HE, rebuy stage so still quite loose, blinds 50-50 on the button, I have 1000 or so. Pick up Td9d in middle position, call, blinds check, we are 4-handed.
Flop comes Jc Kd Jd. Check, check, I check, button checks. Turn comes 8s. Now I have 15 outs but only one (Qd) is the nuts. Check, check - I'm not sure what to do, but bet the pot (200) before pausing too long. The button is passive and would not make a move without a hand if I check again.
So, maybe you would have to be there to call the play definitively, but what do you think about the check on the flop and the bet on the turn ? I am happy on the turn if everyone folds but I am running the risk of being re-raised by a Jack and having to fold ? Or do I have to fold ?
Anyway, all comments appreciated
Andy.
I think if anyone had a jack they would have bet on the flop. Someone with a jack would not want to give a free card. The flop looks scary with the King and two Jacks. Your opponents either have to think that you slow played a full or are bluffing. If you get raised, fold your hand.
id rather not have got involved in the first place but having started i certainly agree with betting in this situation with a view to passing in the face of any heat as in a call or raise or cough.this probably explains my pathetic record at plh tournaments.
Adny I'd have to know if any of these players are deceptive eneough to slow play a full house to the river for a big pot limit check raise.
You are faced with a possible no win situation except for the one out for the SF - pot limit is a trapping game and I would be very caucious here. 15 outs means you have 30 against you and if there is a J out there he has 9 outs. With one card to come I don't like your chances as much as you do.
I think you check call the turn and the river if you hit.
Yesterday I was in a 100 buy in 100 rebuy - after the break I was slightly ahead and paiked up a AdQd raised and got reraised with the game at 100/200 flop came Jd Td 4 - the new player who just sat down bet I called turn was a black7 and the river was a 4d - he bet I raised he reraised and I called with the nut flush he had JJ in the pocket for a full house and I am out of the tourney. I made a mistake drawing at that stage of the tournament.
People laugh when I say I prefer AK offsuit to suited in tournaments because they are easier to get away from and this is a good case of what I am talking about drawing hands are just to stack taxing in tournaments.
Early in the tourney.
Blinds are 15-30 limit tourney - my stack is around 1500 other guy about the same.
I am BB with AQo call raise from fair player in mid position who is raising with any bigish A AT+ and he is raising a lot and not showing much.
flop 8-7-3 rainbow. I bet he calls, turn 2 I check he bets I call, river is a 5 I check he bets I call. He shown AK I knew I was about 25% chance to win 25% to tie and 50% to lose but I saw this miserable hand out to the end. This really good looking woman says you should have raised and I said when I need a lesson I'll call you. I don't think this guy ws giving up this hand and I just wanted it over with.
I have been thinking about it and I probably should have raised but it would have been just a bit more good money after bad I should have mucked after the flop missed me completely but I was sick of this guy getting off without a call.
Comments:
Been thinking about it and I'll answer my own post - had I been playing my A+ game I would have check raised on the flop representing two pair - if he didn't fold I would have led he betting on the turn and river - I don't think he could have called me being the bb with that board.
Check raise on the flop, or on the turn. If you get re-raised, you should prob. fold. Keep in mind that you are BB and heads up. As far as he knows, you have 98o/97o and you are a favorite going to the river. Hell, he might think you got ducks, picked up a draw, anything. Being in the BB was why the woman said check-raise. If you were UTG, you shouldn't check and call (in HEFAP, that whole section on AQ is for this situation).
Waiting till the turn to raise may pay you off more later. (if the table isn't going to break for a while, and the people in the tournament actually pay attention to hands they are not in). That's why I raise with 53s in the BB, and when I have to turn my cards over, I always say "it's better than pocket deuces". Then everyone calls me for the next five hands :-).
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
I'm with Badger. Your biggest mistake in this hand was being rude to a good lokking woman who was trying to chat you up.
It is very early in my first match of the tournament. I am playing against an aggressive player who has been making almost "automatic" raises when he is on the button. In conversation between hands, he states that this is going to be his norm. We each started with T1000 and the blinds are T10-T15. I've had to fold garbage most hands, and he folded the one time I raised him from my button. I have decided that I'm going to play back at him strongly the next time he raises me. I am doing this in an attempt to get him to hopefully back off and let me try to develop a hand or two by getting to see a flop now and then.
I pick up Q5o on the button and throw in the T5 for a hoped for limp. Opponent raises T50, making it T65 to go. I immediately move all in and then get called instantly. As soon as he calls, I realize I am in deep doo-doo. After having 48 hours to review the entire sequence of events, I'm still convinced that my increased aggression was the only viable counter to his raising unless I wanted to passively sit back and pray for a good hand to take a stand with. I didn't want to slowly bleed off blinds to him when I believed his raises were being made without regard to any hand values he held.
In the hand in question, I flopped a 5 and turned a Q, beating his A7h that didn't help. I realize that he had the best of it when the money went in, but, in his place I wouldn't have called my all-in raise. He later said he called because I had only limped initially. His call was so quick that I think it was a reaction rather than any play that first required thought. Thoughts? Comments?
Well, John, you both misplayed the hand in question.
You did the right thing, but did it too soon. Wait for a better hand than Q5, since anything he calls with should dominate you pretty badly. A decent ace, a pair, a very good K. You shouldn't have to wait very long to get one of these.
Also, how big were his raises? If he's raising T50 more everytime, there is no need for you to go all-in. Raise about the size of the pot, about T150 more. This way, if he happens to hold a big hand, and raises all-in, you can get away without going broke. If he will rere-raise with crap, then he's making you make a tough decision, but at least if you then call, you'll have the best of it. If he'll only raise again with premium hands, then you can fold correctly. Judging which is which will be difficult, of course.
I only raise more than the pot in a couple of situations. First, raising the pot will take half or more of my chips. I might as well raise all-in, and maybe increase the chances that they fold. Second, if I want the player to call, and I think that he will call an all-in bet (where he might not call a lesser bet, or he will call both). Why risk T1,000 to win T100 or less? Of course, now that I know you know that, if we meet in a NL tourney, I might go all-in as a bluff, but you get the picture.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
fortune favours the brave.
Are you going to try out?
yes.the europeans arent as fired up as the americans seem to be yet.for example the irish would be far more interested in qualifying to play against the english than to play with them against another former colony .however listening to americans assuming the result to be a foregone conclusion might just do the trick.
"another former colony ."
That's former Colonies+! Thank you very much.
Vince.
Interesting how others refer to you once you've won your independence.
you are exactly right...
Big John,
Read Fossilman's response. Makes sense. But your real problem here is one that only a master ANALyst like myself could find. Shall I poit it out to you and the rest of the unknowing here on two plus two. I'm talking like this by the way because Sklansky declared himself the almighty "Oz" and I wanna be like "Dave" . So I am speaking from the blow hole now. Anyway where you made your mistake was before you picked up the Q,5. But before I get into that, Q,5! Well contrary to what padraig said, you were el luckio! Dat's dat!
Now let's look at what happened. Some guy auto raises you when it's his button. What do you do? You decide to play back stongly THE NEXT TIME HE RAISES ME! What's wrong with this picture? Is that how poker is played? You decide that regardless of the situation, regardless of your hand, regardless of position you will play strongly against this guy and then with a pot not bigger than a "pea" you raise all in! Poker is a situational game. You base your play on the situation in which you find yourself. You use a number of factors to make the, hopefully, correct decision. You never let the play of an opponent solely dictate your play. The truth of what I say can be found in your opponent. He called an all in bet with Ah,7h. Enough said!
Vince. (little Oz)
i didnt say he wasnt lucky.i just said he was very brave .
I was lucky, yes. FossilMan is also right that I didn't have to make an all-in play in order to back him off. In NL though, you don't want to make a decent raise against an aggressive player when you have a poor hand, and then have to play it out when he calls, or, worse yet, throw it away to a raise. I'm pretty much of the opinion that naked aggression can only be countered by a demonstrated willingness to escalate in kind.
I sure didn't want a call. That early, he shouldn't have called with *ANY* hand that wasn't AA,KK,QQ,JJ or AK. We both misplayed our hands badly; me more than him since he called me with a better hand than mine.
for sure i prefer your raise to his call.i think it was a kneejerk reaction on his part in which case justice may have been done in a funny sort of way.
In NL though, you don't want to make a decent raise against an aggressive player when you have a poor hand, and then have to play it out when he calls, or, worse yet, throw it away to a raise. "
If you are going to raise, why even look at your cards? Just watch your opponent, pretend to look, and do your limp -raise play.
"why even look at your cards? "
Amen!
Vince.
Had a similar situation yesterday except I was the one stealing. I was at final table 5 left in tournament I'm in sb with Q6 all fold to me I push in my remaining T$1100 blinds are 400/800. BB thinks for a while and calls me with a 56o I feel pretty good he is drawing dead to the 5 now - 5 hits the river he hits his 3 outter I had 41 outs and lost.
My thinking was I wanted to come out of the hand with T$2300 or nothing, I came out with nothing.
"Had a similar situation yesterday "
Not even close!
Vince.
Vinny,
Why do you always have to be such a plick. LA for - you know - Mason doesn't like the P word..
:-)
Good news:make final table of ESCARGOT limit he in fairly decent chip postition. Bad news:first one out My stack:2100, mid-sized, blinds 200-300. Big stack steals first 3 hands, has about 5200. My bb:AQo, big stack 4th to act, raises, and folded to me. Almost re-raised but decided to fold complete miss of flop to fight later. Flop Q8x, I check raise and he ponders briefly, and call. Turn is J, and I bet, he ponders and calls. River is 9, and I check-call with last 300 and payoff his 10. I really wanted to compete for first and it seemed this was a good chance to nearly double-up. have thought about it a lot and would play hand the next time, the same way...however, I am open to suggestions...... There were 3 shorter stacks, but $ to move up 2-4 spots was pretty minimal. Thanks for advise/comments. Gary
What could you have done. Your check raise on the flop was a good move to get this guy out of the hand. What did he have with the T? How does he make this call did he have a flush draw too?
In this situation there in not much you can do.
Hey,
I was at the final table of this tournament, and it was, to say the least, an "interesting" table.
The big stack at the table had some idea of how to play tournaments, but was being overly aggressive, I thought.
I don't remember this particular hand, but there was also a player at the table (who ended up winning the thing) who had only been playing poker for about 2 months total, and was making some "interesting" calls and plays. She sucked out on me right before the final table with 74o, when I had AK, flopped a king, and she drew perfect perfect for a runner runner straight.
That, I suppose, is neither here nor there, but my point is this--having an overly aggressive big stack as well as a player you absolutely can't put on a hand made it a hard table to play, and not very typical of most tournament final tables.
Max
Max,
It IS typical for this exact mix of players to be at the final table. There is always some yahoo who gets lucky and plays just about any 2 cards and the bigger stacks are supposed to be aggressive - it is up to us to adjust to the changes in the play.
Rounder,
I know what you mean. I felt that this table was slightly different, however, as the big stack continued to be really aggressive, even heads-up against the "any 2 cards player", when it was clear to almost everyone else that he wasn't going to be able to get them off a hand.
There were a bunch of showdowns where the big stack would show down something like queen high, and the other player would take it with K high. Stuff like that.
The big stack ended up third becuase of this.
This does bring up an interesting point, however. After I got sucked out on, I was fairly short on chips. What I ended up doing was biding my time, letting the other players go up against the loose player, and making stands when I had really permium hands (I went all in preflop with AA, and the loose player raised! Talk about protection). This allowed me to last until 4th place. I felt that there was no value in making a stand with a slightly less than premium hand (Q9, etc) as the loose player would surely call, and that would induce someone else to do so (as everyone was looking to catch her speeding).
Do you think that there was another way to play this?
Thanks for your feedback.
Max
Your strategy seems sound to me. Then they are committing suicide sit back and watch every knock out is money on your pocket.
I've done it, at a particurally aggressive table - It is my strategy in single table satellites - I don't start playing anything but premium until there are 3 or 4 left. Then they think I am so tight I get very few calls and get to steal some blinds with virtually nithing.
It can backfire a few weeks ago I went to the final table with 40% of the chips and ended up 8th. I was getting big hands and getting cracked by yahoos who had no business calling me. Oh well that makes up for the short stacks I rode to 1st place I guess.
So what's wrong with being an unpredictible player?
-- Jae, the yahoo who won the tournament after playing poker for only seven weeks
There is certainly nothing wrong with being unpredictable if it can be done at a reasonable price. What I don't understand is why the consensus in this type of situation often tends to be to check-raise the flop. It seems to me that winning the pot on the flop would be the number one objective. Wouldn't that more likely be accomplished by betting out rather than by check-raising. It is harder for an opponent to put a hand down after investing the initial bet. Then they pick up a draw and then all sorts of bad things can happen. I realize that the opponent may call your bet or raise on the flop but it is easier for him to dump the hand with nothing invested after the flop.
Hi. I was wondering how y'all think rolled up hands should be played in stud hi/lo tournaments. First I'll give the situation, then what other people said, then my thoughts. Then i'll ask about another, simpler situation.
I have about T360 left in the $500 stud hi/lo tournament on saturday at the Commerce. The limit is 50/100, with 10 antes. I have rolled up nines. The low card brings it in, there is a fold, an ace raises (Vince Burgio), there are a couple more folds. I re-raised to get heads up, continued playing the hand aggressively (got all-in on 6th), and Vince developed low, made two little pair (open 7's) with a low draw, and then filled up on the river, while I failed to fill, was scooped, and eliminated. What happened is not very important, but I want to know what the right play is.
I asked several different people (like Linda Johnson, Steve Badger, Jack Fox, and Scott Byron) and received a bewildering array of responses. I was told that I should:
a) fold the worthless high-only hand (since its a tournament and my chips are valuable).
b) raise to isolate, then play it softly if my opponent develops low, since its a tournament and i don't want to risk my chips when I can be scooped. Only jam if he develops high.
c) don't raise, just call to let people in so the pot is multiway and I win something if there is a low.
d) play it very aggressively on all streets to make my opponent pay to make his low draw.
It seems like there ought to be an answer to this question, rather than the usual poker "it depends". The only thing I can see that it might depend on is whether my opponent has a pair of aces or an ace-baby-baby type of hand. If he has a pair of aces, it seems to me that I have a huge edge and should bombard him with chips unless he catches an ace, an obvious flush or straight, or an obvious low. Still, if he has 3 low cards, he still needs to make his low just to get half the pot, and is probably drawing pretty slim for high, so it seems like I have a good edge there also.
I think I have a much better chance of scooping or winning early than of being scooped. I am also in the nice situation where if he has the dominated hand (aces) he is more likely to play the hand longer, whereas if he has three low cards and catches a brick, he'll probably give it up. Also if he catches a low pair, he may continue, and its worth rather less than he might think if he doesn't put me as rolled-up. I think it is insane to fold this hand when him having a pair of aces or catching bad on fourth makes me a big favorite. I know that in a tournament, you need to be careful about risking your chips, and that in stud hi/lo, when you play against poor players, you can often get your chips in with very little risk, but if this isn't a big enough hand (heads up) to get your chips in with, what is?
Another situation I encountered in the same tournament: I had about T1000 in chips, and we are playing 30-60. I have pocket kings and a 5 showing. I am expecting to fold, but a jack raises, a queen re-raises, and there are no aces behind me. I 3-bet it, is that right? Given that my opponents each have a big pair, one of us would have to catch 4 perfect cards to make a low, so we are essentially playing stud hi-only. In a stud hi-only tournament, do you 3-bet with this hand? You are a favorite (you would 3-bet it in a ring game to get the jack out), but pair over pair isn't that big an edge, and you have to be careful with your chips in tournaments. On the other hand, if you can't put in chips with pair over pair in stud hi, what are you waiting for, only rolled up hands? They both called, and I ended up folding when the jack paired his doorcard, the queen paid him off and he indeed had 3 jacks.
Patri
Well, here's what I think of the 4 answers you've been given:
a) fold the worthless high-only hand (since its a tournament and my chips are valuable).
b) raise to isolate, then play it softly if my opponent develops low, since its a tournament and i don't want to risk my chips when I can be scooped. Only jam if he develops high.
c) don't raise, just call to let people in so the pot is multiway and I win something if there is a low.
d) play it very aggressively on all streets to make my opponent pay to make his low draw.
.
Well, here's what I think of the 4 answers you've been given:
>a) fold the worthless high-only hand (since its a >tournament and my chips are valuable).
I hate this one. Even in hi-lo, a rolled up hand is great. You are too far from the money to worry much about tournament strategy yet. You should be playing to win chips.
>b) raise to isolate, then play it softly if my >opponent develops low, since its a tournament and i >don't want to risk my chips when I can be scooped. >Only jam if he develops high.
This advice isn't bad. I wouldn't play it softly until and unless my opponent caught 2 more low cards, and therefore probably had a made low (since he would only then be freerolling you). As long as he's still drawing, I would tend to make him pay as much as possible, even when he catches a low card on 4th.
>c) don't raise, just call to let people in so the pot >is multiway and I win something if there is a low.
This is a viable option. However, if you do this, you might let in a bunch of weak low draws, all of whom can now start making straights and flushes on you. I actually thinking jamming on 3rd street to play heads-up is the more conservative strategy, since you will get nothing much less often. But, depending upon the opponents and how many low cards are yet to act behind you, this strategy may have the highest chip EV.
>d) play it very aggressively on all streets to make my >opponent pay to make his low draw.
This mirrors b), as long as you back off once he shows 3 low cards on his board.
As for your last question, 3-bet as long as you're pretty sure that neither player has AA in the pocket or is rolled up. Like you say, you're the favorite, and you can't be giving up on these spots and still expect to win enough chips to reach the money. If this hand came up once you were in or near the money, then a fold would become more correct (although maybe still wrong).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think options B or D are the best ones. Remember, Vince is one brick away on the river from missing low and having two pair only and you sweeping the pot. And with only $350 in chips remaining, once you enter the pot following Vince's raise you are basically comitted to go all-in on this hand. I would want to narrow the field so there's less chance of being sucked out on and hope Vince misses his low and doesnt back his way into a better high than you. As for whoever told you to fold, well, that's basically ridiculous. I guarnatee he/she would not do the same, I think that person is just trying to sound clever. And did the opposite.
Gambler
Here's some expert advice from someone who has never played casino hi/lo stud, or a casino tourney.
1) Folding is a curious idea. You have a great hand. 2) If you just call, the only hand you should be playing is AA9 or 999, so you don't get much deception. Most players in this game would respect a raise from an ace, and sure aren't going to come in with a high hand after you. Do you want a (2nd) low hand to play? No. Your hand is pretty obvious if your opponent(s) respect you at all and are good players.
Given this, reraise and get all in ASAP heads up. You are a big favorite over your opponent. Letting others in just makes a low more likely or denies you the chance to get a raise in.
Good, er, better luck.
1. I think whom ever told you to fold is not your friend. I would jam but would back off if I thought he developed a low. Lets say he catches a suited 2 thru 5 to go along with his ace and bets I would only call.
2. If it was stud high I would reraise without a second thought. But I'm not sure what I would do here. You have 1000 and playing the 30-60 round only. You have lots of time. Can you be sure one of them does not have pocket aces or is rolled up? What if someone calls behind you with a low? I think I would quietly muck.
P.S I'm not a stud 7 hi/lo player whatever that means.
Patri,
glad to meet you in colma. id raise and reraise and bet the trips until i was fairly sure he had a freeroll against me. the hand is a good one and who told you to fold has no clue. good luck in the future
Limit HE 1000 buy in 1 - $100 rebuy. This hand took place after the break - blinds were 100-200 - I am utg. I raise 2 callers and button reraises I call everyone folde we are heads up. I am holding.
Flop comes: 
I bet get raised and I call.
Turn is 
I check button bets I call. 
I bet button raises.
What do you do here?
Limit HE 100 buy in 1 - $100 rebuy. This hand took place after the break - blinds were 100-200 - I am utg. I raise 2 callers and button reraises I call everyone folds we are heads up. I have T$1500 I am holding.
Flop comes:
I bet get raised and I call.
Turn is
I check button bets I call.
I bet button raises.
What do you do here?
Since you're in so deep in the hand at this point, and you don't have the nuts, I'd guess calling is the best move. Folding can't be right, now that you've got so much sunk into the pot and a fairly strong but beatable hand. Judging by your recent attitude about holes in your game and trouble making big bucks, I'm going to guess that you lost the hand to Kings full or Aces full, maybe even quad 4's.
What happened?
Jacks full or Tens full.
Jacks full - Just returned from a tournament where I lost to J's full of 4's with the nut A high straight.
When you are running bad you are runing bad.
I RAISE!!!
Preflop you make him for AA, KK, AK, QQ or maybe JJ or KQs.
He can't assume it'll be HU because two players called two bets cold. And JJ ain't great 4 handed.
When you just called and the others folded he doesn't make you for a monster. If you had AA, KK, QQ you'd rereraise(and I'd do so with AKs). You might have as low as level 3 hands.
The flop hit you both pretty hard. I wouldn't bet it because you'd rather get a free turn and don't want to pay 2 bets for 2 bets with a 1/3 chance at a flush.
When you just called the raise he might make you for crap or playing tight with top pair for fear of AA.
I don't bet the turn because this guy ain't folding. Check and call is good.
The river makes your flush and you bet (good). He might make you for bluffing with the scare card(possible flush) so he would call with anything and may try to bluff as well.
No way does he have 44. It just sucks that he floped trips and the board paired (a very rare occurance) while you made your flush.
If you map out the other hands he could have had you do better in the long run to reraise on the river with the nut flush.
It will also prevent people from reraising on the hope for a bluff steal.
Remember the pot odds. It's huge in this case and worth trying to steal(for both of you).
But I could be wrong.
Call. He might think you're bluffing on the end. Since, he reraised you preflop, I'd say he likely has pocket Queens. I say queens because you're holding the AK which makes a pair of Aces or Kings unlikely, but not impossible.
The guy had JJ and beat my nut flush - I said nice hand and walked stunned to the parking lot called my momma and cried for 20 Min. :-)
I actually got beat by the exact hand last night in a 20K tournament. J44 I have AK - free card on the turn Q 4 chacks T on the river I make the nut straight I bet $200 and get raised. This guy flopped J's full of 4's and checked to the river until someone catches up. I thought I was the only one with eneough dicipline to double check a hand like this.
I was surprised he reraised you with jacks, but then what do I know?
Me too.
Funny you should mention it, but last week, I got hit the same way, AdJd for me, JsXd4d on flop, bet raise etc. Turn is Kd, away I go, river....4s grrr. Sure enough my opponent had JJ.
Limit tourny so I was still way ahead and went on to make final table, but yeesh! What is it with JJ444 ;-)
Tuesday night I had JsTs limp in with 3 others in a NL HE. Flop 9sKhQs, one guy raises, next guy goes all in, I reraise all in to get heads up...idiot had K6o!!
You know what happened from there, right?
Sigh. Same idiot makes the final table, my buddy is there, AK in BB, flop AKQ, my buddy goes all in, idiot calls with J9o....we all know what the river card is.
At some point the quality poker stops and the idiot suicide poker starts.
Here's how your post looks, using the HTML symbols instead of the images. Methinks this is less unwieldy:
Limit HE 1000 buy in 1 - $100 rebuy. This hand took place after the break - blinds were 100-200 - I am utg. I raise 2 callers and button reraises, I call everyone folded, we are heads up. I am holding A¨ K¨
Flop comes: J¨ T¨ 7§
I bet, get raised and I call.
Turn is 4ª
I check, button bets I call: 4¨
I bet, button raises.
What do you do here?
I like it!
How do you do it?
nt
What was the turn out/playing conditions/management like at the Bike for the qualifying?
Howdja do?? Was this quite a departure from being down to the final two in a regular tourney? Any big names qualify?
Bill,
I didn't play in the Challenge Cup Match play. If you check RGP, you'll find the daily results posted. It looks to me like we've got some world class players vying for spots on the team. I know enough about poker to know that I don't have any business competing against that kind of field. My match play post referred to the ESCARGOT tournament held on Saturday.
Limit/NL HE Tourney book. I'm looking to buy one, and I'm considering-
Championship HE-TJ and McEvoy, Pot Limit/NL-TJ and McEvoy, Tournament Tactics for Winners-Sherer, Tourney Tips from the Pros-Shane Smith, Secret to Winning Big-Buntjer, and of course Super/System.
So, if you had to pick the one that's *must reading* for tournament play, which would you pick? I know Super/System is a classic, but I understand its info is dated. Or have I missed your choice? If so, what is it?
thanks.
The No-Limit section in Super/System is still the way the game is played, but you will need to balance your strategy by getting a tournament book. Try T.J. Cloutier's Championship No-Limit Pot-Limit. Eventually, you will find out that you will need to read them all because none are complete.
Jordan V. asked about the following tourney books:
>Championship HE-TJ and McEvoy Haven't read it yet.
>Pot Limit/NL-TJ and McEvoy Acceptable, but not a great book, IMO. Also, it does discuss tournaments, but not in great detail. Worth buying for the combination of uses in ring games and tourneys, but not as an introduction to tourney play.
>Tournament Tactics for Winners-Sherer Haven't read it yet.
>Tourney Tips from the Pros-Shane Smith Pretty good book. Focussed only on tourneys. Lots of good points. Primary drawback is that it's not written in a cohesive fashion, but is a series of comments. You'll need to figure out when to apply which concept.
>Secret to Winning Big-Buntjer Haven't read it yet.
>Super/System No significant commentary on tourney play, especially limit tourney play. Good book in general, but not where to start if your focus is tourneys.
You didn't mention the 2+2 book by Suzuki in your list. However, I have it, and don't like it much. The Smith book you listed is the best place to start that has been written yet, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Gambling Theory and Other Topics has a very good tournament section. Covers the fundamentals well.
..I think the best stuff I've ever read on NLHE tournaments are the final table hand-by-hands at the WSOP! www.conjelco.com\wsop\1997
Both the "Big One" and the PLO won by Matthias Rohnacher are fascinating "reading". Also Poker Digest had a two issue HBH of last year's Final Table. Portions of the various WSOP videos are educational as are hands described in "Biggest Game in Town" and "Big Deal", various magazine articles on/by Chan, Hellmuth, etc. Ciaffone's NLHE section is probably the best "textbook" on the subject. The 5-6 questions on NLHE tourneys in the quiz section(taken from his own WSOP experiences) are more educational than any other book.
I've never read anything 'theoretical' on NLHE tourneys that was worth a dime. I don't think it's possible to write one. NLHE tourney's are the best example of the ol' saw, "It takes a wise man to learn from his own mistakes, and a wiser one to learn from the mistakes of others." And the Suzuki and Buntjer books both suck.
Mason, I received the Suzuki book as a gift. Can I send it to you guys for an exchange, or should I pick a Border's at random and tell them I bought it there last week, but my dog ate the receipt?
Last nights 20K tournament I folded a AQ to a big raise in front of me, my hand rolled over accidently and I got a lot of evil eyes, I dumped JJ to a solid player raisning UTG and called a really good tournament players all in raise one off the button with 88 UTG I had limped from there. I mucked KQ many times from early to middle position and didn't call one raise with it. I played the situations and players something I do much better than playing cards.
Finished 11th but I didn't lose I ran out of chips.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Play better than I was. That is all.
Okay, this happened to me last night, and I was wondering what you guys thought of it.
55 player tournament, all players start with T400, no rebuys.
This is just after the break, there are ~25-30 players left, and the limits have just gone up to 80-160.
I pick up pocket kings in late posistion. It is folded to a middle posistion player (who I know is a fairly decent player) and he raises. Folded to me. I make it three bets. Blinds fold to original raiser, he calls.
Flop comes 9-6-2, two diamonds. Raiser checks to me, I bet, he check-raises. I make it three bets, he calls. Turn comes ten of diamonds. He bets out, and I called. River comes another 9. He bets out, I call. He turns over pocket tens.
I think I played this hand correctly, but I would appreciate your opinions.
Max
You didn't tell us how many chips you and your opponent each had at the start of the hand. However, you are still pretty far from the reaching the money, and I don't think tournament considerations are very important at this stage. Thus, for the most part, you should be trying to win chips, just like a ring game.
I don't see any real errors on your part, in the absence of specific knowledge about this player. Assuming this is a so-called typical player, the pot is too big for you to fold to the diamond on the turn, or the second 9 on the river. There are too many players who bluff, or who would play a hand less than KK (e.g., QQ) this strongly, for you to fold correctly. If you had specific knowledge about this player that you didn't share with us, then you might have misplayed the hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hey,
Thanks for your response. I didn't know that much about the player, other than he wasn't a maniac, and usually played pretty solid cards.
At the time, I was thinking that he was either over-playing AK, he had aces, in which case I'm dead (I was willing to take that chance), or he had a smaller made hand than I did (A9, QQ, something like that). I didn't figure he hit his set on the turn.
Oh, at the the beginning of the hand, we both had similar sized stacks (~T900).
Thanks again.
Max
Tough hand. Your play? If you had to play the hand over again would you play it any differently? I doubt it. That third diamond has to look as scary to your opponent as it does to you and you have already 3 bet him preflop and raised the flop. What are the chances he is bluffing? Not very good. Fossilman makes a good point about chip position. That might be the driving consideration here. If chips are dear you may want to dump on the turn. Of course, it's a lot easier to say that after the hand.
Vince.
He probably had you read perfectly for a big pocket pair. Time to add a little deception to your play!
Limit h/e. Start with T1500. 2 1/2 hrs. into tourney with blinds of l00-200. I post BB of 200. All fold to mid position raise by fast player with lots of chips. He had been open/raising about twice per orbit of full table. My hand l0-10. All fold behind raise to me in BB. I call and we see the flop of 8-6-2 rainbow. I bet 200 and get raised. I call the raise and the turn pairs deuces on the board. At this point I have exactly two big bets left. What should I do? Or should I have folded for the raise on the flop?
I would have three bet him on the flop. If he makes it 4, proceed with extreme caution. If he just calls, you have taken control of the pot, and he will most likely fold or just call your bet on the flop, unless he has a larger overpair than you, in which case you are in big trouble.
This sounds to me, based on the way that you described it, as a fast player overplaying AK. I don't know that for sure, but that's what it feels like.
I think that at this point, you are pot-committed.
I'd like to hear what other people have to say, however.
Max
This is not a hand that you can escape, with those cards on board. Your play until fourth st. is perfectly reasonable. At that point it is close between betting and check raising but I would lead toward the latter, unless you think a bet can make him fold two overcards.
I was willing to give him a free card on the turn even though he might outdraw me with two overcards because I wouldn't be broke if he did outdraw me and then bet on the end. After I checked he bet the turn card. Then I had to decide between folding and raising. Calling was not an option as he would bet my last 400 on the end anyway if he had me beat. The only reason I considered folding when he bet on the turn card is because many aggressive players will check for the free turn card after they feel that they have gained control of the betting. There are just enough of these aggressive types that will bet anyway with anything when I check that I have to commit and check-raise with my last 800. Turns out he has pocket aces and I get an early start home.
Last year I played tournaments in 14 different casinos and found that the rules from one to another are much different so much so as to effect the outcome and course of play.
Last night I was in a tournamnet at Fort McDowell when we were down to 12 and I got up to see how many short stacks were left at the other table as the final two tables were not together. I was told it was against the rules to do this. When we got to the final table we just took our place based on chip count no final table play can you believe that. WOW - If I had known that I may have played things a bit differently.
Rules about exposing cards vary and so do chip/race off the differences are great from one casino to another and state to state.
I can play golf in any country in the world and know the rules of Golf will apply why can't it be the same for Poker tournaments.
Hi Rounder,
I have no doubt you would have played it a _lot_ differently :-). Now I think about it, that is a completely different game. And how the **** can you play it properly if you can't look at the other table ? That is very bizarre.
I think it's just the nature of poker that there is no central regulationary body so everyone's going to go their own way. Someone (I believe Bob Ciaffone was involved) put together a definitive rulebook for cash games a short while back but it didn't really catch on.
The moral of this story is to check for local rules before you start. I'm sure I don't have to tell you the "Only one Lollapalooza a night" story :-)
Andy.
Andy, I usually do check rules at a new casino but this is a casino I have played in many times the rules were recent (in the last 2 months) and I haven't been there since the changes.
The rules usually change with the change of tournament directors. Problem is some, a few, tournament directors are not fully professional and tinker around with rules. They don't realize this costs a guy like me money, the other day a player exposed his hand at final table with 5 players left and his hand wasn't killed - there is a rule about this and the "new" tournament director decided to let is stand. It could have cost me a place. In Reno I was at final table 3 left I was all in preflop with QQ and on the turn I accidently fliped one card over and my hand was killed THAT cost me a lot of money and it was an accident. No hard feelings I deserved it cuz I wasn't real careful but it meant nothing to the hand and I would have won.
The best run tournaments I attend are at casino arizona where Paul Lord - a good tournament player in his own right - is a strong manager and runs the tournaments on timely, consistantly and fair basis, what else can you ask.
In all the floor decisions I have seen Paul make I have only seen him blow it once and that ain't bad.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
They said if ai did it again I'd get a 20 min penality.
Couldn't afford that so I conformed.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
You know the more I think about this stupid rule the more outraged I get.
Ft Mcdowell is a good card room these days since it came under new management - prior to the new management I swore off this place back in May of 98 then casino arizona opened - by far the best run card room in Arizona maybe the whole west.
I'm gonna call Mike this morning and ask him to defend his no peek rule.
Small NL hold 'em tourney which pays top 5 spots. There are 5 players left and I have T9500 which is average, maybe slightly above average. Blinds are 500-1000. I recieve AA UTG and call. Only small blind and big blind call. Flop comes Q66 rainbow. All check. Turn comes 7 offsuit. Check to me and I bet 3000. Small blind raises all in (another 1000 or so). Big blind folds and I call. Of course, he has 6c7c. My question is regarding my pre-flop call. Is it better to call or raise (my standard raise has been 3x big blind) in this situation? I'm already in the money, and AA is hard to beat so I thought a call was correct and I still think so but I'm not sure.
In this situation I would almost certainly raise about 3 times the big blind amd hope that someone reraises me. Just calling and trying to trap someone for more bets is a mistake in my opinion with the blinds being so high. Raise and hope someone reraises, if they all fold then you have to be satisfied with just picking up the blinds which in this case is not to bad.
Also, Just curious but do you mind me asking were this tournament was held, I have a feeling I might have also played in the tournament although I didn't make the money (this time).
The tourney was held at Diamond Lil's in Renton, Washington.
That's the tourney I was playing in. I was the young guy sitting at the middle of the three tables wearing a red fleece shirt. Before yesterday I'd won and placed third the last two Sunday NL tournaments at Lil's. If you dont mind me asking which table you were playing at? It'd be nice to meet another 2plus2 contributor.
I was knocked out yesterday when a guy caught a queen on the river to make trips, to beat my pair of Aces. I held ATs he had QTo and he called a 400 bet on the flop and an all-in bet on the turn of 1000 with middle pair and caught a Q on the river. At the time about a 22 to 1 shot but a guy later told me he had a queen that hand so it really was a 42 to 1. I usually don't tell bad beat stories but it seemed appropriate.
I was at the end table (furthest from the door) in seat 4 initially. I'm young and have a really short haircut. I've won two tourneys at lil's, one nl and one limit but never just placed until today. I only play hold 'em, no omaha. I never play ring games at lil's because they have no 10-20 or higher (I play at hideaway on 145th and aurora, literally the best action in seattle especially at 10-20!). Drop me an email.
I agree. If you are raising as much as you should be 5-handed (I reckon about 30% of hands, depending on how the rest of the table are playing) then it is imperative to raise when you have the goods as well. If they all drop, this is one spot where I would be tempted to show my hand, although others would disagree and there are valid counterarguments.
Andy.
Exactly, since your standards for raising should be lower, your opponents are more likely to play back at you, especially with lower pairs and an A with any kicker, which are exactly the hands you want to be playing against. Slowplaying big hands shorthanded pre-flop is usually wrong. If you've got something playable you usually should raise especially if you're the first one in.
Last table 5 left I'm on the button with 22 passed to me. I make a 4 x blind bet (I am chip leader) BB calls with AK. I show 22 and he says you raised with 22 I said hell from here they are about as good as QQ.
I spiked a 2 on the river and I won the hand he didn't improve anyway but this guy thought he had a better hand than I did.
Was I on a steal, bluff, semi bluff or just playing a good hand for the situation.
What do you think?
Depends on a lot of things, his stack size is an important factor, but it sounds reasonable to me. You're 50-50 against a caller unless you're unlucky enough to run into a pocket pair which is unlikely. You also don't like being called twice, but you were there, you must have a good idea how the blinds were playing.
An interesting point is that if someone thinks you have made a dumb play when in fact you haven't, why enlighten them. Say something like "I felt like a gamble" or "2s have been good for me lately". Example I saw last week : loose player in the SB raises, BB (tight) folds, someone tuts, tight player shows 42 off. Why not just let them think they can run you over and then play accordingly next time ?
Andy.
Andy good point - this guy went home thinking I was the loosest guy in the house when in fact I am one of the tightest.
He will remember those 2's for a long time.
See my 55 post above for a contrast in playing situations.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
:-)
Rounder,
I would have to know the stack sizes of all the opponents to make a decision. 22 is a poor hand shorthanded, I can't tell you whether you were wrong or right, but I think you got lucky (like you really needed that duece on the river). Consider this, approximately 48.7% of the time AK (I don't know how much more of an advantage being suited would be, maybe someone can run poker probe and post the results)will catch an A or a K.
I'll take an under pair to AK (really just 2 over cards heads up) any day I was 6/4 fav and 11/10 if the AK was suited.
I look at a 22 as good as QQ against AK - really except for the 2 outs the Q's take away from the straight it is just as good to me - AK improves against ANY under pair and I lose.
After winning this hand I had 1/2 of the chips.
I was all in and didn't need the 3rd 2 to win it. The players in the blinds are wealish and would only call me with preminum hands he almost mucked the AK.
Rounder,
I understand the value of the hand. BUT, you did not know that he had AK. Futhermore, I asked about the stack sizes because I would not want to jepordize my stack unless I felt I could take the risk. Do you know what I'm impling? So, I still don't know if you were right or wrong. No enough information. I need to know the stack sizes.
I had him out chipped by a lot.
I still like my little pair against a random hand with position short handed.
Blinds are 200/400 I'm button, 11 left 10 get paid I have a reasonable chip count T2200 - passed to me - bb & sb are type to call any hand in this situation and have eneough chips to hurt me, as I get the action I hear 2 guys at the other table go all in so I know I am most likley at the final table after this hand.
I muck 55.
Now my thinking is I can out play this bunch at the final table and I did but I keep thinking about the 55 was it weak or strategically smart?
Rounder,
What are you going to do when the flop comes with overcards to your pair after you get called and they bet the flop? I think that you can easily get outplayed, especially if they have more chips than you. I would pass on this hand.
BTW, whenever I have played in limit and no-limit tournaments I frequently get called if I raise on the button.
mah
As you know I tend towards playing in this kind of situation but this looks like a pass even to me. Especially if you feel you will be called. If this is NL, if you are going to raise, it's got to be all in. If this is Limit, well a raise is even worse for the reasons mah states above.
Andy.
Since you state that the guys in the blinds will likely defend, your fold is correct.
They will likely have 2 overcards to your pair, and thus you will only be a slight favorite. If they both call, and they both have overcards, you're not even a chip favorite any more (i.e., you'll win less than 1/3 of the time).
Since it appears almost a lock you'll get in the money by folding, a fold is in order. And, if you're unlucky and no one busts at the other table, you still have a few free hands for something to happen. The fact that 2 of them are all-in always favors a fold. They might both go broke, and you'll immediately be in 9th place.
Finally, you will get a chance to move up for free at the final table as well, since some players certainly bust out before you even play a hand.
Thus, overall, you might move up quite a few spots on the payscale with no risk, merely by avoiding a situation where you're a slight favorite at best.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Rounder's 55 post got me thinking. My local casino offers PL Stud and Hold-Em (and Omaha, which can be treated the same as Hold-Em for this discussion), with similar payout structures. 6th-9th all get paid 3 x the buy-in, then the real money is divided between the top five. I have mostly been playing Stud while learning the game but am now playing more Hold-Em.
Now, when you get down to 10-11 players in Stud, there are compelling reasons to play fast. It is relatively easy to steal pots 5-6 handed with a high card as everyone is trying to make the final. If you have, say, 4000 chips with antes at 400 it is worth taking a few shots when you think you can win without a showdown. If you go to the final 9-handed with only 10 antes, you're in the lap of the gods. You need to get dealt a good hand - you will surely be called, and you then need your hand to stand up. It will be out of your control. So pump it 5-handed - and if someone plays back, cross your fingers and toss the rest in (unless you do have enough chips to get away).
But Hold-Em is different, yes ? At a comparable stage, blinds are 800-800. So it costs you 1600 for a full round whether you are 5-handed or 9-handed. Thus playing 9-handed is not as much of a disadvantage for a short stack. And even 9-handed, you have a chance to win a pot uncontested from late position. So, while I would still tend to be the aggressor when all around are tightening up, I should not do so to the same (almost kamikaze) extent as in Stud. Is this sound ? Have I missed anything ?
All comments welcome,
Andy.
Andy, can you provide the structure of these games?
You say PL, but that doesn't tell us Americans the whole story. For one thing, I've never heard of PL stud in the U.S., and I certainly haven't played it. After you ante your T400 and the cards are dealt, is there any further forced betting? In limit stud, the low card usually has to make a forced bet (the bring-in). Is the same true in PL stud? If not, who acts first after the deal?
In HE, you mention blinds of 800-800. That is different than my experience. I've played plenty of PL HE, and even in that game, the blinds are usually of different amounts (i.e., a small blind and a large blind). Where are the blinds posted in your game. I know some games post a blind on the button.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
Stud : if antes are 400, high card brings it in for a minimum of 400 and a maximum of the pot (2000 five-way). Then it's standard pot-limit betting, always the high hand on board first.
Hold-Em : Yes it is strange, even in the UK. Blinds are equal, one is on the button and one is to the dealer's left. These are live blinds which can raise if there is no raise in front of them. Naturally this gives the button an enormous advantage so it's beyond me why it is this way, but it is.
Hope this helps,
Andy.
Is the first round a compulsory high card bet? 7cs is played with HP, high card speaks first and can bet or fold here (australia). Speaking of odd set ups, a PL HE tournament was played in Canberra last year with an ante and no blinds! Players could call for free, or raise the pot. That was wierd because if everyone just called (which happened pretty often apparently) it was a family pot with ten players seeing the flop.
As a survey question, have you ever seen a hand of PL 7cs where there was a full sized bet at every round? They're awfully rare: you need about 950 antes for five pl bets, head to head.
I think you should be more aggressive in whichever game rewards it the most.
The structures do seem to indicate that stealing might be more effective in stud than holdem, but in practice I think that this probably doesn't mean much.
If it is easier to steal in stud, it is probably because the players are letting you do it more. If that's the case, steal more. If they let you do it more in the HE tourneys, steal more there.
Also, I think that short-handed play is harder for a short-stack in HE than in stud. In stud, it costs you a T400 ante every hand. The only variation is that you will be the bring-in more often in stud as the table gets short. In HE, the shorter the table gets, the more it costs you to see each hand. If blinds are 800-800, then it costs you 200 per hand at an 8-handed table, but 320 per hand at a 5-handed table. Thus, as the table gets shorter and shorter, the effect is greater in HE than in stud, as the cost per hand goes up more rapidly in HE.
In any event, it often pays to be very aggressive at this stage of any tournament. Once you get 1 or 2 spots away from the money, you will find that many (most?) players go into a total shell, and play nothing but the nuts. They do this for fear of going broke just short of the money. The fearless players are using this time to steal their way to a big stack. I have heard of guys like John Bonetti using this period of time to go from short-stack to chip leader, and without a single showdown.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks Greg,
Just one question, when you get short-handed in Hold-Em, isn't the increasing cost per hand proportionally offset by the fact that your standards for raising will be lower so you can play more hands ?
You're right that I should just do what works but unfortunately I haven't managed to get myself into this position in Hold-Em yet so I'm trying to think ahead :-)
Andy.
Andy wrote: "Just one question, when you get short-handed in Hold-Em, isn't the increasing cost per hand proportionally offset by the fact that your standards for raising will be lower so you can play more hands?"
No. I mean, your standards for raising also are lowered in stud as you get more short-handed, right?
While it's true in HE that your standards go down as you get shorter, it is also generally true that your opponents know this. Thus, you also get played with more often. Therefore, it can be harder for a short stack to steal in a short-handed game than it is in a full game (although it is likewise more likely that you will be paid off when your raise preflop is with a big hand). Actually, it's harder for everyone to steal in a short-handed game, just in the sense that people know you are more likely to come in with a raise, and they are more likely to defend with a larger range of hands.
I'm not sure I've really answered your question.
Oh well. Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Stealing IS often more rewarding in stud tourneys, but it is also riskier. Particularly in the smaller buy-in tourneys, there are still plenty of weak players left, even at the 2nd-to-last table, who have gotten lucky by taking hands too far. The suckout factor is also significantly higher in stud, so quite often comparable hands that you might be able to continue stealing with in HE after the flop, you are often better in stud to back out of after the initial move.
One other factor not mentioned, but one I always keep in mind in the HE tourneys. If you aren't in the blinds when they are real high, you don't HAVE to play. While that sounds elementary, what I mean is that a more precise risk-reward, stack-size, hand value, position and opponent analysis should be done when considering whether to make a move on the blinds at 2nd table. Conversely, in stud, the antes continue to eat you up, at a quicker pace -- so you simply have to make some moves.
Finally, the more hands you play in any tourney -- no matter how good the hands you've been dealt -- the more likely you are to bust out. This seems to be more true in stud than in hold-em, but is applicable to both.
Final table. 3 places payed. 4 players left. I am on the button with T9000 in chips, two players have T39000 and one has around T34000. I have enough chips to make it through the blinds. I propose a deal to chop up the money, which does not happen because someone proposes that we chop it up chip for chip. I agree but later decide that I should have gotten more because of my position and small stack. What should I have done?
"I propose a deal to chop up the money". Nice try, but extremely ambitious :-). I give you the shortest of shrift if I am the chip leader.
To be honest, what you should have done is play on. By suggesting the deal yourself, you start off on the defensive in the negotiations. If you have the BR to handle the fluctuations, I believe you're better off playing, or at least making it clear that you prefer to play and so need more $$ to agree to a deal. If you are not a professional (ie have a job) and are playing in small tournaments then BR is not even a consideration IMO.
If you're confident about playing short-handed, then go for it. If you aren't, there's only one way to improve ...
Andy.
Andy - Yeah. Maybe what you need to do if you want to settle is buzz it in the tournament director's ear. It surely is to the advantage of the casino, from a cost management point of view, to get the tournament over with. I agree with you that it is never self-favorable to seem too eager to make any kind of deal, in poker or out of poker.
As an aside, I frequently see "IMO" in posts and wonder what IMO means. (I have been translating it as "I'm afraid," but it obviously must stand for something else). This is the first time I have seen "BR." I wonder what BR means (brass?). Is there somewhere to look up "IMO" and "BR," or would you be kind enough to share their meaning? Thanks.
Regards,
Buzz
Sorry, I'll try to avoid this. BR = bankroll. IMO = In My Opinion (sometimes IMHO In My Humble Opinion). I also think that some of the confusion below may be because there are actually 4 players left and only 3 get paid so there is a good chance the low stack will bust out and get nothing.
Andy.
Andy - Thanks.
Buzz
Here is the EXACT answer for how to determine a fair deal. Unfortunately, it's implementation is subject to a lot of subjective disagreement.
To use this method, it doesn't matter how many people are left, how many are getting paid, or anything else. All you need to do is calculate your chances of finishing in each remaining paying position, and multiply that chance by the size of each payout.
Example.
The final table has just convened. 9 players, and 3 being paid. Prizes are $500, $300, and $200. I have half the chips in play.
IMO, I have a 50% chance of winning, 25% chance of second, 15% chance of third, and 10% chance of not making the money. Thus, before I would accept any deal, I would require that I receive at least $355.
(.5 x 500) + (.25 x 300) + (.15 x 200) = (250) + (75) + (30) = 355
The real problem here is estimating your chances of finishing in each position. This is very subjective, and depends not just upon your chip count, but also the relative chip counts of everyone else. For example, in the above scenario, if another player had 45% of the chips, and everyone else was so short-stacked that they could barely pay the big blind, I would change my numbers to 50% first, 44% second, 5% third, and 1% no money.
In practice, I will take a few seconds when I am out of a hand and do the above estimate in my head. I will then offer to make a deal that is substantially better than my personal estimate of my fair EV. If they say no, I've lost nothing (although my volatility remains high). If they say yes, I've made a deal that's better than fair for me. I never make a deal that I think is less than fair for me. Now, if I make the final table of a WSOP event and the money is huge, I might consider doing so, but not for lesser amounts. The only advantage of accepting an unfair deal is to reduce your volatility, and in terms of a few hundred or thousand, that isn't worth it to me.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
There is no doubt that a straight chip count deal favors the big stacks and harms the small stacks.
Here's an example, using stack sizes similar to those in your tournament. Let's assume all 3 chip leaders are equal, with 30% each, and you have 10%. Prizes will be assumed to be paid out 50-30-20 to the three winners.
In a straight chip count deal, you get 10%, or half of the third prize.
A real fair deal will pay you a percentage of each place, based upon your chances of finishing at that position. With 10% of the chips, you have a 10% chance of winning. Let's assume that your chances of finishing 2nd are 13%, and 16% chance of 3rd. That means your chips are really worth (50 x 0.1) + (30 x 0.13) + (20 x 0.16) = about 12% of the prize pool.
Thus, a chip count deal has shorted you by about 20% of the true value of your chips.
In your case, you held 7.4%. I would say your chips are worth about 7.4% of 1st + 10% of 2nd + 13% of third, whatever that adds up to be. It is by definition higher than 7.4% of the entire prize pool.
In practice, it will be very hard for you to convince the other players of this. If you push hard, they will frequently say something like "hell with this guy, let's just play, eliminate him, and then the rest of us can make a real deal". If you are willing to accept the chip count deal, keep that in mind as you negotiate for more, and be prepared to act as you feel is best (e.g., don't antagonize some guy, or tell him he's stupid for not understanding what you're explaining, or you can be pretty sure he'll nix the chip count deal you were willing to accept if you couldn't negotiate anything better).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg - I read your post with eagerness because I don't know what the correct or fair numbers are. Since I'm in on a lot of these splits, I'd really like to know what the "correct" or "fair" numbers are. Of course, in a three way settlement, the person in third chip position must always get more than that posted for third. (Otherwise he would just play on, and the WORST thing that could happen to him is that he would lose and take the third place money).
Fossilman stated, "In your case, you held 7.4%. I would say your chips are worth about 7.4% of 1st + 10% of 2nd + 13% of third, whatever that adds up to be. It is by definition higher than 7.4% of the entire prize pool."
Sorry, Fossilman, it's not higher. Your split would make it lower for the third place player. Perhaps the numbers need to add up to 100%. If you made it 7.4% of 1st + 7.4% of 2nd + 85.2% of third, then it would be more fair.
I don't know what the "correct" or "fair" split would be, just that your numbers are surely wrong in this case.
Regards,
Buzz
Buzz wrote: "Fossilman stated, "In your case, you held 7.4%. I would say your chips are worth about 7.4% of 1st + 10% of 2nd + 13% of third, whatever that adds up to be. It is by definition higher than 7.4% of the entire prize pool."
Sorry, Fossilman, it's not higher. Your split would make it lower for the third place player. Perhaps the numbers need to add up to 100%. If you made it 7.4% of 1st + 7.4% of 2nd + 85.2% of third, then it would be more fair."
Let's say P is the total prize pool. It was stated in the original post that only 3 places were paid. Let's call each of those prizes A, B, and C.
As such, P = A + B + C
(7.4% of A) + (10% of B) + (13% of C) is by definition larger than 7.4% of P, since 7.4% of P is equal to (7.4% of A) + (7.4% of B) + (7.4% of C). OK?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg -
I'm looking at a posting for a prize pool. The total amount in the prize pool is $3500. The prize for first place is $1400, the prize for second place is $700 and the prize for third place is $385.
7.4% of $1400 is $103.60, 10.% of $700 is $70.00 13.0 % of $385 is $50.05.
The total is $223.65. That's less than the posted $385 for third place.
You're right about one thing though.
You wrote, "As such, P = A + B + C (7.4% of A) + (10% of B) + (13% of C) is by definition larger than 7.4% of P, since 7.4% of P is equal to (7.4% of A) + (7.4% of B) + (7.4% of C). OK?"
Yes. O.K. True. If P = A + B + C, then 0.074A + 0.10B + 0.13C is larger than 0.074P.
However, whether that is true or not is irrelevant.
The issue is whether 0.074P is greater than C!!! (It's not).
I wish I knew how to make bold print on this forum, to emphasize the last sentence.
Your mistake, I think, is that you have confused the real money awarded to the winners with the tournament chips.
As an aside, how do you make a new title on this forum (like you just did)?
Highest regards to you,
Buzz
.
In the original post for this thread, 3 people will be paid (exact prize amounts were not given). However, 4 people were still left in the tournament. Thus, it is not necessarily unfair for the guy currently in last place to be given a deal where he gets paid less than third place money.
In the given post, the stacks were 3900, 3900, 3400, and 900. The shortest stack is far enough behind the other three players that his chips probably are worth less than the full amount of the third place payoff (whether or not this is true depends upon the exact numbers for each payout).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
n/t
Bill - Thanks for bringing up the matter of "fair" settlements. I've been wondering about it for a while.
The object of the settlement, from the standpoint of whoever is currently in first place, is to safe guard earnings. With the huge escalating blinds, the relative sizes of stacks (and chip leader position) can change rapidly with the luck of the cards, especially in my game (Omaha high/low). Whoever is in first at the time of the split must still get the lion's share of whatever is left in the pool, but most of the "settlement" must come from the player in first place.
The third place player must be awarded more than the posted amount for third place. Otherwise, logically, the third place player would simply say, "Play on." Fear that the second place player (or even the third place player) might then move up to first place is what motivates the first place player to agree to a split.
Similarly, fear that the third place player might move up to second place, plus, perhaps a slightly larger share of the pot than the posted second place, is what motivates the second player to agree to a split.
A "fair" three-way settlement must award those in second and third places for agreeing to settle.
It is not uncommon (at least in the Omaha high/low tournaments in which I play) to see the current chip leader refusing the proposed settlement, only to find himself no longer the chip leader (and sometimes knocked out of the tournament) after the next round.
It also is not uncommon for the leaders to wait until a relatively very small stack is knocked out of the tournament before agreeing to settle.
It is to your advantage to "play on" if you are third out of three, unless the chip leader agrees to settle with you.
Until I read your post, I had never heard a proposal made for a settlement which did not give the person with the least chips more than he would have gotten had he busted out on the next hand. You're right, you should have gotten more, but not "because of my position and small stack." You should have gotten more because you might have won the tournament if you continued playing.
I agree with Andy Ward. If you ever again find yourself in a similar chip position, let someone else make the proposal for the settlement. Put fear in the hearts of the leaders by playing tight/aggressive and acting as though you plan to win the tournament.
Regards,
Buzz
all the discussion regarding the fairest deal presupposes that all remaining players are of equal ability in a shorthanded situation.The best allround poker player of the three may even be guy who is at a disadvantage against two opponents more adept at the art of the crapshoot.Your assassment of the value of your chips should be determined by what you consideryour chances are against these two individuals in the prevailing situation.
Padraig - Good point.
The final three players probably do not have equal abilities. However, how do you tell who has the most ability? (Of course, the answer that cries out is that you finish the tournament and avoid a settlement).
I am not necessarily advocating for settlements. I'm just saying that the player in first place has to concede some of the first place money to the player in third place. Otherwise settling is completely to the disadvantage to the person in third place.
On the other hand a settlement always has some advantage to the player currently in first place, assuming the settlement is a fair settlement. The advantage to the chip leader is simply that whoever is the chip leader at any given time during the tournament may not be the chip leader a few hands down the line. Yet whoever is the chip leader when the settlement is made still gets paid more than whoever is in second or third place. In addition, whoever is the chip leader when the settlement is made is credited with winning the tournament. There is some pride involved. Thus it is to the advantage of the player in first place to come to a settlement, even thought he has to concede some of the first place prize money to win the tournament right there. It's the old bird in the hand being worth two in the bush.
Moreover, on any given evening, the best player doesn't necessarily win, there being something called the luck of the draw involved.
My question is the same as Bill's, the original poster. What is a fair settlement? How is it decided?
Regards,
Buzz
... in the Subject: text box.
Andy.
But make sure to post the message in the right place - D'Oh !
This is a response to Buzz's query at the end of his 6.17 pm post as to how to change the subject of a post in your response. Apologies to those who are now more confused than enlightened :-).
Andy.
n/t
Don't do it - double through just twice and you are chip leader.
Stealing Blind questions:
1. Why is it more likely that you will get called by the BB if you try to steal on the button?
2. When you get short stacked in a tournament, what is the optimum frequency of stealing blinds in order to build up a stack to play a hand (blinds will double every hour)?
Most players suspect an aggressive player is stealing on the button. Idon't steal that much from the button I have been doing it earlier with a weak short handed table I do it UTG.
Short stacked stealing is really dangerious bigger stacks will take youon with marginal hands.
mah - I'm on my way to Chicago tomorrow and will be playing there soon - are there any tournaments going on in Chitown these days.
If we define stealing as raising with a hand that you expect to lose if called, more stealing occurs as you get to later position.
If I raise first to act, I have to worry about EVERY SINGLE player at the table. Any of them might have a hand they can call or reraise with. Thus, very few people steal from UTG. They might raise with a hand they think is probably best, while simultaneously hoping that everyone just folds and let's them win the blinds (AJs might be a good example). However, once everyone folds to the button, this player only has 2 opponents to worry about, AND they have position on those opponents guaranteed. Because the opposition is down to 2, and because of this positional advantage, you should raise with more hands when first in from the button than any other position. Because the blinds know this, they will defend more liberally as well.
Second question: No Real Answer.
I don't think there is a generic answer for this. You should steal as often as you think it is a profitable move. If you are 1 or 2 spots from getting into the money, and you feel that everyone is in super-tight-survive-at-all-costs mode, then you can possibly steal EVERY hand. I once stole 6 times in a row in a NL HE tourney, and on the 6th time, the big blind showed his QQ as he folded! It was easier for me to do this as chip leader than if you are a short stack, but I've also done repeated steals at this stage with a short stack as well.
All you can do is estimate whether or not they will call, and steal if it appears their call is unlikely.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
There is this local guy who is really great he is seen in Poker player winning some big tournament every couple of months and has a good tournament record in local clubs. I have played with him several times in tournaments in the 3 state area.
When he is going badly he tries to make something happen and I sensed this - I was behind him and came over the top of him with 88 - my call wouldn't have taken me out but it would have crippled me.
Normally I wouldn't have made a committment with a hand like 88, a hand I want to see the flop as cheaply as possibly with a full table but I was going heads up here and I liked my chances.
Comments.
Rounder,
Depends how small the tournament you are currently playing in is. I see this a lot - players who have good records in _big_ tournaments are often just passing the time in smaller comps. They're looking for entertainment, the cost of a buy-in/re-buy is very small compared to their bankroll and, if they concentrate, they can outplay a lot of opponents on a later street. These factors combined mean they can play very loosely, especially with a small stack in the rebuy stage.
In a big-bet tournament you can exploit this. It is _very_ important to do what you did which is come over the top of them rather than call. Two reasons : to get it heads-up and to deny him the opportunity of outplaying you later on. Especially if you go all-in - no one in the world can out-play you when you have no chips left. Every now and again you run into a big hand behind you but them's the breaks.
One other point is to try not to antagonise them. The last thing you want is for them to change gears into their A game because they are needled, especially if they are going to do it against you only.
Andy.
Andy this was a $20k tournament. I don't think he was in b game mode and no I never antagonize any one actually we are sort of friends.
Cheers,
I think the best way to play against a great player is to just play your normal game and hope someone else knocks him out before you have to deal with him.Ive often seen brand name players being gifted loads of chips by guys behaving like rabbits caught in headlights.If you refuse to be intimidated you automatically improve your chances of success.
Only ones that intimidate me are my wife, mother and the IRS (inland revenue). But I get your well maid point.
Cheers,
I understand completely.Atleast being intimidated at home gives one a wonderful feeling on escaping to the cardroom.It also makes these brand name players look a lot more human.Good luck.
Random distribution. Nothing more. I've played with the player to whom I believe you are referring literally hundreds of times. I've keyed on him numerous times and can tell. Honestly.
I know, I know, wrong forum. But no one gets to the Other Topics forum and I think it's an ok report if you like them. Thought I'd drop it in here...
Figured I'd write a report on my outing to the Miss Marquette in IA for their "WI Poker Championships" Hold Em event last Saturday. Be forewarned that I took no notes, tend to ramble in my reports, and will be including details of 2 horrible beats that I took, including the one that put me out of the tournament. Oops, hope I didn't spoil the ending for you... Oh come on, like you really thought I'd do anything in my first tourney. Any way.....
Saturday-
Up and out the door at 6AM for what I figured for a 3.5 - 4 hour drive over to the boat. One wrong turn on the way but otherwise an uneventful and surprisingly quick 3 hours till I'm pulling into the lot. (BTW- Who the heck was in charge of naming the highways in WI? I passed at least 6 Hwy G's on the way there, not counting the one I live down the road from. :) )
The tournament doesn't start until Noon, but with only 6 tables and the response they got for the WSOP qualifiers last year, I wasn't taking any chances. I plunk down my $70 entry and chat with Kevin, the rooms manager. Kevin took care of booking my room at the Brisbois Motel when we talked last month and seems to run a nice, friendly room - more on that later. Thanks Kevin! So, I waste some time getting a players card - you need one for poker if you want any comps, 5 hrs play for a buffet comp - and wandering around the boat. Back in the Poker room I'm looking at a bulletin board with pictures of recent "main" tourney winners when I get invited to help get a 5-10HE game going. I look at the table - I look back at the pictures - they're all the same guys, uh.. no thanks. I think they decided to play 20-40 without me. :) More on this later too.
Ok, I get the tourney details - ready for the "goofy" structure? $70 buy-in for T1000. Limit HE blinds start at 10-20 and basically double every 20 minutes. Rebuys during the first hour for $15 for T1000, during the second hour $20 for T1500. Rebuys allowed anytime your stack is at or below the rebuy T-value. At the end of the second hour there is an addon available $35 for T3000. 20 minutes after the add-on the format changes to No-Limit starting at 800-1600 blinds. Got that?
Before the tourney I meet up with MadMary and her husband Pete. What great people we get to meet through RGP. She's given me advice and info on the Miss M over the last year as I've gotten started and we had planned to meet up and maybe grab dinner over the weekend. She's giving me the scoop on all the strong players (which took quite some time) and introduced me to RGPers including Chet (WI Badger) and doh! forgot name (Babb Real Estate). There are more but I'll stop embarassing myself by saying that I was just so nervous about the tourney I didn't remember everyone that I was introduced to. Sorry. My sincere thanks to Mary for being my guide for the trip and introducing me around. Thanks Mary for everything over the weekend!
Tournament time! I draw Seat 1 at Table 5. As the table fills in I don't recognize anyone from Mary's scoop session.. wait who's that in seat 3... I should know him... AAAAHH! It's Dewey Weum from the final table at the WSOP! And he's on my left! Run Away! Dealer: "Would anyone like to rebuy before we get started?" Seat 1 staring agape at Seat 3: "Uh, yeah that'd be a good idea". Seat 3: "No, thanks.". My goal for the day just changed dramatically as it finally hits home that I'm WAY overmatched here by probably most of the field, and I change my focus to not totally embarassing myself, at least at the poker table.
The cards are in the air and I'm stunned at how fast things move. I've never played at a pace like this. Right out of the chute Dewey is raising the first 5 hands or so, hands never go to the river, the dealers act quicker... everythings a blur. Even if I would have had a notebook, I don't know when I would have taken any notes! I remember playing tight and winning with Q's, winning with A's, and folding a boatload of 52o and worse. I don't need to rebuy (again) in the first hour and at the break I have T2275 - ok Mike, breathe now.
At the last hand of the second hour I make a horrible play. Middle position with 9cTc. With blinds going up so fast I always felt like I had an average stack at best. 4 people limp in in front of me! I'm stunned! With limits at 400-800 this pot is going to be a monster - so I limp in too. And 7 of us see the flop of something like 842 with one club. BB bets and I'm ready to drop - Now EVERYONE drops in front of me! Well, I have backdoor flush and straight possibilities with two very minor overcards and a ton of dead equity in the pot.... I call. Dewey isn't happy that a weak tight player like Seat 1 called there, he debates and grimly folds. Heads up between me and the BB. Turn an offsuit 6. BB bets... well now I need the 7, but I'm pot committed and I call. River is..... a total miss for me, I don't even remember. BB bets and I disgustingly throw my last 400 all-in just in case he's totally bluffing. He timidly flips over Q4 for a pair of fours and rakes the pot. I can tell that Dewey is decidedly not happy with my call on the flop, but he mercifully refrains from laying into me as I reach into my wallet for a $20 rebuy AND the $35 addon.
Now we're in the last 20 minutes of limit HE. I need to make a move with a short stack when I pick up ATc in the BB. Dewey raises and all fold to me. I call. Flop comes 335. I check, Dewey fires in. I have less than two big bets in front of me BUT I have been admittedly weak for much of the last two hours. Which is exactly why I "knew" Dewey would fold after I quickly check-raise bluff him on the flop. Which I did, and he did, and I'll never forget that I did it and got away with it. He busts out shortly before me and thanks to sheer luck and a quick moving blind structure I can say that I outlasted Dewey Weum in my first tournament. And I will to anyone who listens. :)
The hand I'm most proud of: I pick up JJ in middle position during No-Limit. A big stack in the 10 seat calls the blinds and I was ready to push it all in against him. When I notice the 2 seat seems to be eagerly ready to shove his stack in too.. I fold the Jacks pre-flop and get to see AA take out QQ when the dust settles. I'm happy with that one.
We're at No-limit and players are dropping like flies with 1500-3000 blinds. I'm so clueless I didn't even realize that there were only 16 players left when I pick up "OH MY GOD" Black Aces in late position with a stack of T3500. This is it. T4500 in blinds are posted, short stack in early position goes all in with T2200. Folded to me and I push all-in. The blinds come along and there is almost T13,000 in the pot. Please be a rags flop! Flop: Q46 rainbow. "YES!" Turn: 2 "YESYES!" River: "BE AN ACE,BE AN ACE!" no, a harmless 9. Oh, this pot is so mine. Short stack shows A3 off. I triumphatly flip over my Aces... only to be shown the BBs (Ron Unrath (sp?) he won two events in last year's tourney) 62off that made two pair on the turn. I Go Home Now - Ron goes to another final table. As I quietly stand up in disbelief of my fate, I now take first notice that there are only 14 players left and I dare say that I would have been at the final table had my Aces not been so viciously snapped. Serves me right for check-raise bluffing a WSOP finalist.
Looking back I now realize that I didn't even hang around to see the final table and watch these guys! I wasn't mad or anything, I think I was just in a daze and trying to get a grasp on the last three hours experience. Mary's husband Pete made the final table and got a $100 save for 8th place. WTG-Pete! As for me, I paid $160 for my tuition and a story to tell.
I head back to the hotel to check-in and figure to catch a two hour nap (shut up-I'm planning to play all night hopefully when the tables are a little softer) before meeting with Mary, Pete and Chet for dinner. Yeah right, try sleeping after that, I know I tried without success for two hours.
So, after dinner back to the poker room! It's about 8PM, they had two 1-4-8 stud/8, a 4-10 spread limit Omaha/8 with a 1/2 kill, a 5-10 HE, a 10-20 HE and a 20-40 HE (which progressed to a Pot Limit HE game that I heard was going until like 5AM). I have never seen a game that big or so many towers of red chips. I plan to watch as I ask for 5-10HE but there's a seat open! All right! Fact is the table never got over 8 players at a time on it. I was up over $260 when a couple people picked up and the game broke at like 9:30! I'd never seen that happen before. I figured it would get restarted - Nope, seems like HE isn't the game around here unless you've got a big bankroll. Mary and Pete are playing in the 1-4-8 games and tell me they're not that good, and I'm not too excited about playing stud anyway. Should I move over to the 10-20 HE with Chet? Ha. I don't think so. So, I watch the 4-10 O/8 game for a while. I've never played this before outside a quarter home game and although the lineup includes at least three tough players, including Wayne, the author of "Zen and Poker" (I would have bought one really Wayne, you've gotta start carrying some around!) and another gentleman who won TWO events this year including the O/8 event, the action seemed loose and passive. I decided I'd be ok if I just played tight. Which I would have been. Of course if I did that, I probably would have also played about two of the hands I looked at for the next five hours.
Sparing you the gory details I gave back about $200 (much of it on the second last hand with a non-nut full house) at that table before that game also broke up at about 2:30AM. Ok, I lied, I have three details to share.
First, during the game this clueless braggart of a kid sits down in the 5 seat. He's never played before, yet is trying to impress upon his friends that are with him that he's awesome at poker. After playing every hand to the river and in time being relieved of his money he gets up (steaming) to walk away and the gentleman I mentioned above makes the effort to offer some sincere nice words for him to the effect of that this is a tough game and he didn't play badly for his first time. Thanks to that effort he was back within the hour, (after they wouldn't let him buy-in to the 10-20 game with $50), to redistribute his money from the ATM machine among us. I hope more good players will note this behaviour and be nice to the newer players as they discover the game even as they put continue to put horrible beats on all of us.
Secondly, I have never laughed so hard and so often at a poker table as I did while playing in this Omaha game and at the Holdem table the next morning. The atmosphere of the room was just very casual and loose. The dealers seem to have fun and jump right in. After sufficient coercement from the table, one of the funniest dealers (his name's Sandie, he was in charge on Sunday!) actually broke into a frighteningly loud version of a Kiss song and repeatdly would make loud announcements like you hear for slot winners ("Attention in the casino, we have another winner in the poker room at table 4, seat 2 has just won $80 dollars, Congratulations!) Now, I understand that you may not want that at 20-40, but at 4-10 and 5-10, I loved it cause it made it attractive for new players to have a casual feel to the game. Much different than I'm used to in Aurora. It just cracked me up.
Third, the dealers keep their own tips. Which improves the dealing and the interaction greatly. I think every room should switch to it.
Well, it is 2:30AM and I'm not ready to quit yet but there's nothing interesting (or affordable) left so it's back to the room for me. Ready for an early start tomorrow!
Sunday
Up and at em at 9AM, complimentary donuts and juice as I check out of the Brisbois ($25 poker rate - take it, it's a deal). Ran into "Zen" Wayne in the lobby and picked his brain regarding my upcoming trip to Vegas and the Omaha game last night that we played in together.
Back to the casino at 10AM ready to play in ring games and get ready for their small $25 HE tourney at 2PM. I walk in and see something I didn't expect... It's empty. Not a single game going and I'm only about the 3rd person to show up. I sit and talk with the dealers, glance through CP and PD marveling at all the big $$$ tourneys out in Vegas and CA. Finally I get up and wander around some more in the casino. Now I promised myself that I would not use my poker bankroll on BJ or Craps or nothing. So, finally I find a room full of "video game" type slot machines with a row of nickle machines and there's a few open. Now I'm against playing the slots - even nickle ones, but I'm dreadfully bored so I drop $10 in for 200 credits and spend the next 5 minutes trying to figure out how to get the players card to work and reading the 800 different ways that I can have a winning spin with numbers and letters and pumpkins and cats and witches etc... Fortunately I was flanked by two nice grandmotherly types who helped me figure out this contraption and give me strategy pointers when I was lucky enough to have some kind of choice to make during the game. My 200 credits grew to over 800 when the poker room started paging players including myself and when it got back down to $25 I asked the ladies how to cash out. They looked at me like I'm from Mars amazed that someone would stop without the credits reading zero and I spent many minutes shoveling $25 worth of nickels into one of those big gulp cups. $15 up and I haven't even played a hand yet! Cha-Ching!
So, back to the poker room and there are now two shorthanded games going. The 5-10 table cheers (literally) when I walk in to the room - I hate it when that happens. :) Oh, the other table? 20-40 with pot-limit overs, sheesh. Got to play with Chet and his wife, she's best known as "the actress" from Ray Klann's WSOP qualifier trip report last year. She's also related to Dewey Weum somehow (sister?) whom BTW I expertly check-raise bluffed and lasted longer than in my first tournament. ;-)
The 5-10 table never got over 8 people mostly at 7 and I don't win a pot until 1:20 PM when I'm stuck $175. By 4:00PM I'm unstuck and up over $200 again after I take my second worst beat so far (did I mention those black Aces?). In the BB with 89o, 2 players limp, middle position raises, 2 cold-calls behind, LB folds, with the size of the field I call the extra bet and we take the flop 6 handed. Flop: T74 rainbow, I check my open-ended straight draw, someone bets and everyone calls. Turn: 6. Ding! Ding! I've got the nuts and I check knowing that someone will fire at this one. There's a bet, and a call, then I pop everyone with the check-raise (I check-raised more on this trip then I've ever had the opportunity to before) which draws the two grumbling callers and the pot is now $150. River: Another 6. I didn't like it... pondered... and checked. Turn bettor bets (I knew it!), one fold and I call crying expecting to see the full house. Nope, runner-runner Quad sixes. Ouch, ouch, ouch....
I'm planning to play until 7PM but again - the game breaks up around 4:30. Unbelievable. As I said, I really enjoyed playing here, but I can't risk driving 3 hours to not find a game. At 11AM Sundays in Aurora there's a list and two 5-10 games going all day long.
I say my goodbyes with $50 to the good after all expenses and the tourney fees. I stop at the gift shop and use the winnings to buy a nice pullover for my wonderful wife who let me go for the weekend, an electronic Blackjack game for our 9 year old son that I know he'll love and a dozen decks of cancelled MM playing cards (Cha-ching! I can tax deduct this trip now!) . Hop in the car and head on back home with my bankroll in exactly the same position it was when I left. Happy with my game, happy with my experiences over the weekend and happy to be heading home..... ok, less happy with this dufus in front of me going 55 - can we move it along buddy? :)
Next stop will be my virgin trip to Vegas during the WSOP for the last weekend in April. So, if you thought this trip report was unnecessarily long, wait till I get back from 5 days in Vegas!
Hope you enjoyed it.
Michael (Packerfan1)
Be the flop... See the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
Packerfan, Great report. I'll be there the last week of April also. I'm planning on playing a couple of Satalite(sp) games and see what happens! Good Luck.
Michael,
Sounds like you had a fun trip. I could not make it on account of the bad weather but did spend friday night at hollywood in Aurora. Got to love that 5-10 game there. Let me know the next time you head out there maybe we can hook up. Better luck in your next tourny.
Best of it !!
MJ
While your post is anecdotal in nature I must say that it has a sufficient nexus to tournament strategy to warrant posting on the Tournament Forum. Best of luck.
WFM
Played in my first NL tourney yesterday, and I've been thinking about the hand I got knocked out on. Tell me how I played it:
$60 buy in for $T500, $50 rebuys. We're past the rebuy period and blinds are now 100-200. I'm short stacked with around $T1200. Player to my right is a VERY solid player. He's just about chip leader the whole time. He knows I'm a newby and says to me "with the blinds, you need to get aggressive real soon or you'll be blinded out". He's right. I've only been playing AA, KK and Slick thusfar, folding against strength with anything else. So far I'd survived 4 all-ins, but every time I was holding a monster. One all in was a chop, KK vs. KK. Basically I was hoping to survive as long as possible, so I played very timidly.
Final hand for me: I'm in mid-late position, UTG limps, all fold to solid player on my right,who limps. I'm holding AJo. Figuring I need to make something happen, I come in as well. Flop comes J84 rainbow. UTG checks, strong player (who has about T$15,000) bets over my remaining stack. I figure he's trying to pick me off, and I call all-in. He's flopped a set of 8's, and I'm history. Please, fire away and tell me what I did wrong at all levels. How much of a dog was I preflop, AJo vs. 88? What's the trick to gaining power in a multiple re-buy tourney? I doubled my buy-in by the 3rd blind level, but with all the re-buying, I was still way overmatched in the mid-stages.
thanks, shooter
I think you misposted the key to this hand. The UTG player (who had a stack large enough to seriously dent the chip leader) didn't check the flop. He bet 1000 into the pot and the "solid" player made a raise to 3000. It really changes the analysis of the hand here and reduces the chance that he is on a move.
God luck next time.
What?? I said the UTG player LIMPED in pre-flop (T200), and then CHECKED the flop. After the hand was over, the UTG player told me that he had a J, but a weaker kicker than me, leading me to believe he was on either KJ or QJ.
well, i am pretty new to nl and to tournaments, but i'll give it a shot.
first of all, michael's correction is very important. a flop fold would have been correct. you are trying to survive.
i even think your preflop play was wrong. you have enough for 4 rounds of blinds. one thing you cannot afford to do is limp to see the flop, expecting to fold if you miss it. you have to go all in preflop (unless you're in the blinds.) but you are small enough that almost any raise you make will be called. (sometimes you'll be in late position and the blinds are also short stacked. then you can steal. preflop or on the flop.)
you should be looking to double up. identify who is frequently stealing the blinds and play a pair at least 8's or so and AK maybe AQ against them. i would have folded AJ preflop. or raised all in. what will probably happen is someone will reraise to shut out the other big stacks. and your A high might have been good. (in the big scheme of things. obviously this hand you would have had at least jacks.)
basically you can't afford to decide on the flop.
you only played AA KK and AK. wow. i am sure you didn't fold QQ preflop. man, i never get AA or KK. or AKs. i get AKo a bunch, though, so i'm ok. you should play more hands.
anyway nl tournies are great.
scott
Amazingly, in the first 6 rounds of the tourney, I got dealt KK about 5 times. One time it was TWO HANDS IN A ROW! The bet came around to me and I bet, saying "100 straight". A few players folded, saying aloud that I bet with a lot of confidance, so they put me on a strong hand. I won the pot with my K's beating out Q's. Very next hand I'm dealt KK again. . .bet comes around and I say "100 straight". This time everyone folds.
As for QQ, I was never dealt it. The only solid hands I saw were either KK or AK. I folded 77 from early position once, and the flop would have given me the winning set, so that was 20/20 hindsight. Other than that, I did play far too tight. However, the table I was at was seeing a ton of late position big raises, so I didn't want to chance any marginal hands.
How'd you do, scott?
If you had more experience, hands like that should have won you the tourney...
Funny how small our poker workd is.
Your AJ is a slight dog to an under pair. About 6/4.
AJ is a real trap hand in NL HE poker you really can't call raises with it and it is hard to fold with limpers. With no raises your flop here is great and you would be justified in playing it the way you did but Mike7's correction makes it a bit dodgy and you should have folded to the big raises.
Played in the limit HE tourney at Foxwoods last night. Nothing spectacular, eliminated in the middle of the pack, somewhat of a bad beat, nothing unusual.
After playing live game for a while, I stopped back to check out the final table before going home, mostly to see if my new RGP acquaintence, DTM, was still in.
Watched 4-handed play, one guy finally gets eliminated. A couple of hands later, the guy with fewest chips is down to very few. He asks the other guys to give him $50 each on top of 3rd place money, and he'll go away, then they can play it out or make a deal as they wish. The chip leader says no. Then, the guy with second stack says "I'll give you $60 to walk away now and be blinded off." After some hesitation, the guy says yes.
Here's the details. Blinds are 3-6. Stack sizes are 9, ~25, and ~100. Short stack is going to be the big blind on the next hand dealt, with medium stack on the button, and large stack in the small blind. Prizes are approximately $950 for first (officially $1,000, but they made a deal 10-handed to give $50 from first to the 10th place finisher), $700 for second, $400 for third.
What do you think of this deal? Who do you think got the best of it? I'll post my thoughts later. Mostly I'm posting this because I have never before seen someone make such an offer.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
That is strange. At first glance it appears that the small stack has got much the worst of this. If it's me, I toss the other 3 in irrespective. If I get called by the SB (100) and win, it's 18-25-90. If I get called by the button (25) and win, it's 21-16-100. If I get called by both and win, it's 27-16-90. And if both fold (unlikely) I have 12 and can try again. Off the top of my head, I have a good chance of catching up with the medium stack and increasing my equity to at least $550. So I think his position is worth _at least_ $80-$100. I should think the medium stack takes most of the equity the short stack is giving up.
An interesting quirk, though, is that while the vacant seat is blinding off, I think (please correct if wrong) the large stack has position 2 hands out of 3. Could be a clear advantage if the vacant seat manages to win an all-in hand or two.
All comments welcome,
Andy.
A deal is always good as long as everyone agrees - doesn't the big stack have any say here. I thought all had to agree for it to be a deal.
Frankley I think the small stack did OK. So did the mid stack. Maybe he wanted to get the big stack heads up if his reason is valid I like the deal for everyone.
I get pissed off when people criticize deals people make. It is a a DEAL if everyone agrees. It is situational and personal.
Andy,
The vacant seat could not win any hands after the deal.
The deal was the player walks away. That means no one is there. His chips are put up for blinds by the dealer, but since he's not there no one else is allowed to turn up his cards at the end. They are mucked unseen. Thus, he loses every hand by definition.
This deal does mean that the large stack is likely to be the one to end up with those 9 chips. In the next hand, 6 of the 9 go into the big blind, while big stack is the small blind. Since no one is there, the short stack will be folded. However, if the medium stack were to raise from the button, and get called by the big stack, and go on to lose all his chips, he would officially finish in 3rd place, and the empty seat would finish 2nd! Thus, the medium stack needs to fold this hand, then post his big blind the next hand. At this point, the big stack has gotten 6 chips the hand before, and can get the remaining 3 (plus 6 from the medium stack) if he steals from the button. Anyway, the medium stack can afford to play this hand, because he started the hand with more chips he will come in second even if he loses it all this hand.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
OK, I wasn't sure of the rule. I still think the guy who is walking away is losing EV, what do others think ?
Rounder, I'm not necessarily criticising anyone for this deal, it's just that with some discussion we can all be better prepared if we should ever find ourselves in this position. As for everyone having to agree, this may be another point that is open to interpretation and local rules. Best to check. I have been told that if other players agree saves or splits between themselves there's nothing I can do about it, but the cardroom manager has promised that she will make sure there is no collusion during hands. Exactly how she proposes to do this I'm not sure, but I think she is a strong enough character to lay down the law and make it stick.
Andy.
Andy I didn't say you were. I've made good ones and bad ones and never look back. I have not met many who feel they made a good deal afterward which doesn't sit well with me. A while back I was part of a deal with a well known tournament player - he was smallest stack - I was 2nd biggest stack 5 of us did a chip equity deal at about 3am. I saw him at another tourmanent. I think at Reno and he told me he should never have done the deal how he got screwed and all the whining was silly.
This is a wierd deal cuz the deal calls for the small stack to do something the other player did not agree to.
While MS and SS talked this deal out, the BS just sat there. The tournament director was not at the table, but there were many observers plus the dealer. It seemed clear to me that he didn't really care, since it wasn't going to directly cost him a thing. If he did consider speaking up, there was no reason he should. The SS was being paid to walk away and forfeit his remaining chips to the blinds. How could this hurt the BS? I don't see any obvious way.
If he had complained later, I would have given him no sympathy, since he just sat there, listened to it all, and said nothing.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Point taken
Here are my numbers. It took me a few minutes to do this with a calculator, so it shows you the value of bringing a calculator with you to the table. Here, a backhand estimate might only cause you to make an error of $10-50. In a bigger tournament, that same error might be multiplied 100-fold (i.e., real money!).
If they made no deal, I put their chances of finishing in each spot as approximately BS: 75/23/2 MS: 19/56/25 SS: 6/21/73 Which translates to an EV of about 880, 670, and 500, respectively. Thus, when the short stack originally asked for $50 from each player to go away, he had made a very accurate guess at the true value of his 9 chips. However, my own result amazes me, because when I listened to his offer at the time, I thought he was asking for way too much. Often, your hunches, based upon just looking at the stacks of chips, aren't very accurate (at least mine aren't).
After the deal, I put the chances at: BS: 79/21 MS: 21/79 Which translates to an EV of about 900 and 750. However, the MS had to give 60 to SS, so his EV goes down to 690, while SS gets a certain 460 at this point.
Thus, this deal added about $20 to the EV of BS, another $20 to the EV of MS, and cost the SS about $40.
Therefore, MS made a great offer for himself, since he increased his EV by $20, while simultaneously reducing his volatility. BS did just fine to keep his mouth shut and not nix this deal. Finally, SS made a poor deal, IMO. While he decreased his volatility to zero, he paid about $40 to do so, which is too much.
Now, the only thing I would consider here is the play by the MS. The original offer by the SS was $50 from each of them. The MS ended up giving $60. Thus, while this was a good deal for MS, it was not as good as the deal offered by SS. What the MS should have considered (and maybe he did, but knew that the BS wouldn't listen) was talking the BS into giving some lesser amount to SS. Instead of $60 from only the MS, MS might have said "Look, I'll give him $45, you give him $30, and he goes away?" This costs him less than the $60 he spent, gets $15 extra into the hands of the SS (so he'll take the deal, as I thought he was going to reject the $60 offer), and is probably palatable to most players in the position of the BS.
Of course, there are a million other options. Which is why some players do better for themselves in this area, because they're always considering a wider variety of options than their opponents. I am VERY glad to have learned of this idea, because I had not previously considered it when discussing deals.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"If they made no deal, I put their chances of finishing in each spot as approximately BS: 75/23/2 MS: 19/56/25 SS: 6/21/73..."
FossilMan - I can see how you got the first place set of numbers. (BS: 75/.... MS: 19/.... SS: 6/....) Looks like 100/134 = 0.75, etc.
But how did you come up with the second place set (19....56....25)? That is, how did you estimate 19% as the chance of BB coming in second, and how did you estimate 25% as the chance of SB coming in second?
Also, how did you come up with the third place set (6....21....73)?
I know theree is some rational way you went about it, and the numbers seem reasonable to me, but in reading your post it's a mystery to me how you did it.
(I can't get in trouble if I just ask questions).
:-)
Thanks for you previous help.
Buzz
I just made those numbers up. They are my best guess, but have no specific basis in math, statistics, or anything else that is entirely objective. Unfortunately, I am not aware of any method for making these estimates that is both accurate and easy enough to do at the table. I have heard of people doing stuff with software to derive these estimates, but those are not possible for you and I to do with a human brain.
All I suggest to anyone is to come up with their guess as to their chances of finishing in each available spot, multiply that chance by each prize, add it up, and that is their fair deal number. If EV is the only consideration, then anything more than the fair deal number, and you should take it, anything less and you shouldn't. If it is very close, then weigh considerations other than EV.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
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I haven't played a lot of pot limit hold'em and I would like a few tips on strategy when playing in a tournament. Does strategy vary much from limit holdem tournaments? Also, I understand there is more trapping done in pot limit. For example if your the first one in after the blinds and you hold pocket rockets would you just call hoping someone will raise so you could make a substantial raise when it gets back to you or would you raise coming in and again if someone reraises? All comments and suggestions will be greatly appreciate.
Dice
It is the ultimate trap game. Since the betting esclates expodentially you can sit in the weeds.
You can play more pairs coupled cards in PL as the inital betting is small compared to the latter bets.
Rounder,
I'm not sure why you think Pot-Limit is more of a trapping game than No-Limit but maybe that's one for another thread as the original poster is asking about the difference between limit and pot-limit.
Dice,
When the blinds are small compared to your stack you can limp in with a lot of hands, especially if you think you are not going to be raised (which depends on position and your perception of your opponents). Specifically, you can limp with a lot of small pairs and small connectors and Ax suited and the like. The flop can change everything as you know, so if you can see it cheap then do so.
Conversely, I think it's very important to raise with hands like QQ and AK off because you don't want to give other people a cheap flop. Calling with QQ and letting Ax suited (or even off-suited from loose players) in cheap is very bad.
When you do make something on the flop, fight the urge to slow-play it. If you flop a set and there are two suited cards, pump it in a multi-way pot. Top pair in a multi-way pot is not as good as in limit though, this can be a tricky spot. Try to make your decision on the flop about whether and how to play your hand.
When the blinds get big, PL becomes more like limit (it might be more accurate to say that limit becomes more like big-bet). Stealing is important later on as I'm sure you know.
And finally, don't worry about moderating the size of your bets - just bet the pot.
All comments welcome, and good luck.
Andy.
The limp-reraise is generally a bad play. When the money is deep, your objective with aces is to get someone all-in preflop. You have a better chance of doing that if you bet out and get raised by someone who also holds a strong hand. If you limp-reraise, that gives your hand away, and makes it easy for someone to get away cheaply from a second-best hand. Also, if several players limp behind you, you will now be out of position against multiple drawing hands on the flop, and can easily be trapped into committing strongly when your aces are beaten.
Trapping is generally reserved for when the blinds are high or when you're facing an overly aggressive player. Against someone who will keep firing with an inferior hand, don't stop him.
Andy Ward's advice here is excellent. My personal view differ in only one respect: I treat connectors as very weak in pot-limit. Ax suited and small pairs are ideal to limp in with when the money is deep. But even for 5% of your stack, (1) connectors rarely have strength on the flop, (2) you will often flop a 4-draw that you will have to fold, (3) they easily make second-best flushes. And it's often difficult to get paid off those few times they do hit.
Thanks Dan,
Maybe my view on small connectors is slanted because a guy knocked off my QQ with 54 in a big pot last week :-) (and yes I did raise pre-flop).
Andy.
I just read on RGP (I really need to get a life) that Mike Paulle had been hired by WSOP to do daily reports for this years tourney.
If you haven't read Mikes reports in the past on RGP you are in for a treat.
Maybe he can re-post them on 2+2 since there is often problems getting posts up on RGP.
Any reviews of Suzuki's "Poker Tournament Strategy" put out by 2+2? I am looking to do some reading on tournaments.
I don't have any tournament books that are high on my list. I guess if I was forced to recommend one it would be "Tournament Poker".
P.S I think Suzuki's book is one of the worst. If I had money to buy 8 out of 10 this book would not make my list.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - the definitive tournament book has yet to be written. The best course in my opinion is to study The Theory of Poker and Hold-Em (or Stud) for Advanced Players and think very hard about how the various concepts apply to the tournaments you play in. By doing this you will hopefully understand more about the tournaments themselves.
I have found the section in TTOP on Loose and Tight Games and the short-handed sections of the 21st century HE/Stud books to be particularly useful but there's plenty more in there besides.
If possible, it is best to get into a regular cycle of play, think, read, play, think, read ... to continually refine your ideas - and I don't think this ever stops !
Good luck,
Andy.
I know I have asked this question before, and you have answered it the same way. I appreciate you time, I am not ignoring you. I was just curious to see if this 2+2 product was any good. From the fact that I have never heard anything about it I can kinda guess...
Thanks.
Ranking of Tournament Poker Books I have read:
1. D.R. Shearers "Poker Tournament Tactics for Winners" 2. Ken Bjunters 3. Tournament Poker by McEvoy 4. 101 Tournament Hands by Shearer 5. Shane Smith's book 6. 2+2 Book (Suzuki ) "I didn't really finish it but read parts"
I am shocked by your ranking of "Tournament Tactics For Winners" by Shearer. This book was so crappy that I returned it to Gamblers Bookstore. This is the only poker book I've ever returned. I didn't want it stinking up my boookshelf.
I thought someone had asked but didn't realise it was you. At least I'm being consistent :-)
Andy.
Suzuki's book is good for discussing the various types of tournaments and how they might be played and how they might progress. It is worth the money for a beginner to get the "feel" of a tournament.
For an advanced discussion without a lot of math or %'s lanyap (Polish for Bull $hit) try TJ Cloutiers PL NL Championship poker. TJ and his co writer Tom McEvoy give a high level look at big time big bet tournament poker.
This book is also useful for Limit Tournament strategy.
TJ's book is one of the only books that put suited cards where they belong - most of the other publications overvalue them and cause a lot of players to lose a lot of bets and tournaments because of overvaluing suited cards.
I wish you success.
"TJ's book is one of the only books that put suited cards where they belong - most of the other publications overvalue them and cause a lot of players to lose a lot of bets and tournaments because of overvaluing suited cards."
In fact, if my memory serves me right, TJ even explaind why in pot limit hold 'em he would rather have 65 offsuit as opposed to 65 suited.
He makes a case for AKo as opposed to AKs easier to get away from and can have a big flush in 2 suits. I happen to agree with him not so much that he convinced me, but because I had the concept before I read his book and he was the 1st author that but suited cards where I think they belong. Just marginally better then off suit cards and costly if you miss and even more costly if you hit and lose.
He also makes a case for pot odds being bull in tournaments. I agree here too.
In tournaments they are death. Specially NL also in PL and limit when the blinds get big.
Actually Rounder you have hit upon a point that very few tournament writiers ever mention. It is the idea that all tournaments are essentially no limit since after the early stages, many hands are played where one of the players is all-in before the river.
Book is decent if you play in low limit ($15-$50) buy in type tournaments. Most of the book concentrates on these types of events.
Frankly, for most of us, this makes the book more useful than the very entertaining TJ Cloutier and Tom McEvoy's Championship etc. ... which actually contains (extensive) advice on playing in the world series of poker...gee, thanks guys, the next time I do, I'll be a little better informed...
Suzuki's book focuses on tournaments exclusively to the extent that they are different from live games, so there is almost no discussion of poker strategy concepts.
I'd like to retract the post I made below, correcting your comments on my question. I had no idea that you were the very player I was referring to, and I'm sure you remember the hand better than I do.
It was a real schooling sitting at your table, being sandwiched between two strong players. If you'd ever be willing to sit down over a cup of coffee and discuss tourney play, I'd be happy to treat.
respectfully, shooter
You and scott should get your buddies together and play a single-table tournamnet on a Saturday, with a structure similar to the one at the DC, but with longer rounds. I have done this with some of my newbie friends (with $10 or $20 buy-ins and rebuys) and we have discussed the key hands as we play. It is a great way to learn and there is enough dough at stake to keep it interesting. If you guys invite me, I would be happy to join you. Otherwise, let's talk next time I see you at the DC.
BTW, I remember the hand in detail that you descibed. I decided to play my set fast because the early position limper is a calling station and I knew he had a piece of the flop. I was hoping HE would put me on a move and call. I was afraid that if I called an YOU raised that he would fold. In the tourney last week, this guy crippled me with a goo/bad call. I had QdJd in late position and called after he limped UTG and another guy also limped. The flop was Td9c5d. He made a pot-sized bet from UTG, the middle guy folded, and I moved all-in with about twice as many chips as he had. I KNEW this guy had a fairly weak hand like QT since he always checks a set, and would have raised coming in with a big pair. I figured he would have to lay down any Jack, except for maybe AJ. Anyway, the blinds fold and he almost mucks his hand before throwing in all of his chips with a lousy JT. His hand holds up and my stack is damaged. I was hoping he would remember this play, put me on a semi-bluff like T9 and make a bad call here. I think your call scared him.
P.s. The guy to your left, Alex rolled over the game when we were down to two tables. I had bad position, a modest stack, and got no cards to play back at him with. He is a tough player when he gets the chips. I think he cashed for over 3k.
Good luck.
Please don't give this Mikey guy a bigger head than he already has! VERY SOLID PLAYER...yuk.
$60 Buy in No Limit Holdem Tournment with unlimited rebuys ($40) for the first hour anytime your stack is below $500. Both the initial buy- in and the rebuys get you $500 in chips. There us also an $500 add-on at the end of the 1st hour that anyone can get for $40.
During the first hour, play is very loose but most players tightening up considerably after the end of the rebuy period. I was busted playing AKs near the end of the rebuy period (about 5 minutes left) and sort of automaticlly handed the dealer $40 for a rebuy. My question is should I have bothered to rebuy since I would have so little time to catch a hand before play tighened. Also since I had rebought, should I have have then spend an additional $80 for an additional rebuy and the add on at the break. That would have brought me to about $1400 which would still be one of the smaller stacks.
I looked at the other tables during the break and noted that they were generally similiar to my table with two or three players havng stacks of $3000-$5000 with and the rest of the players generally having stacks of $1000-2000 after rebuying.
Given that some of the big stacks will be held by very strong players, it seems to me that rebuying late in the 1st hour and then spending a addition $80 just to get to a slightly less than average chip position might not be a positive investment despite the general advise to take advantage of all rebuys. I think that a sounder position would be to use that money as a buyin for the next tournament where the flop might be a little kinder during the loose phase and you have a chance to be one of the big stacks.
To rebuy or not to rebuy given these circumstances? That is the question.
Thanks, Calvin
When the rebuy is cheaper than the original buyin for the same number of chips (or the same price for more chips), always rebuy whenever you are allowed to do so.
If you're not willing to do so, then you are giving up some edge to those that are.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, I have played in only a few tournaments and my experience with rebuys is this: by the time I actually used my rebuy chips they were only worth a small blind. (This was in limit HE tourneys with rebuys during 1st 2 levels regardless of stack size.) Based on that, I drew the conclusion that to rebuy when you're not close to busted is not worth it. Maybe I was just lucky that my rebuy chips weren't needed until they were almost worthless. Or maybe I should have played looser while the blinds were smaller? I played quite tight from the beginning. Hoping you can alleviate some of this confusion -- Kate
OK, let's make sure we're all talking about the same thing.
Buyin - The money you originally put up to enter a tournament. In exchange, you get a specific amount of chips. I will use the Tuesday night NL HE tourney at Foxwoods as my example, so there the buyin is $25 + 10 (i.e., $35, 25 of which goes into the prize pool, 10 of which goes to the casino). In this event, your buyin gets you T200.
Rebuy - An opportunity to buy more chips during a fixed period of time at the beginning of the tourney. Rebuys are typically available only if you qualify, usually because you have a certain amount of chips or less. I have rarely seen tournaments where you can rebuy without qualifier as often as you wish. I have often seen tournaments with a fixed number of rebuys available without qualifier (usually 1 or 2 rebuys). Most often, you must have equal to or less than your original buyin. At Foxwoods, if you have T200 or less, you can rebuy. Thus, you can rebuy BEFORE the first hand is dealt. Here, you get T200 more for $20.
Addon - An opportunity to buy more chips at one specific time, which has invariably (IME) been at the conclusion of the rebuy period. Almost invariably, there is no qualifier, so everyone is allowed to addon. At FW, the addon is T200 for $20, or T400 for $40.
So, now we're talking the same language. Or at least, you know what language I'm talking, even if yours is different.
IF the rebuy chips are cheaper than the buyin chips (as is the case at FW), then I recommend rebuying anytime you qualify to do so. Early in the tournament, every chips is basically identical in monetary value. Thus, if 100 people entered the FW tourney, there would be T20,000 in play, and each chip would be worth $0.125. Now, if you rebuy immediately, you get T200 for $20. These chips are worth a fraction less than $0.125 each (since your rebuy has "diluted" the value), so cumulatively, they're worth a fraction less than $25, yet you only paid $20 to get them. As everyone else rebuys, the value of each chip gets closer and closer to $0.10/chip, but will never reach that number. Thus, you profit everytime you rebuy.
OK, rebuy period is over, do we addon?
The same math applies as above, and theoretically you gain by adding on as much as allowed at FW, since each chip is worth slightly more than you pay for it. Since you're still far from the money, the difference in value of a chip in a big stack versus a small stack isn't large. However, it may be large enough that if you have a big stack, you're not really making much money by adding on. For example, let's pretend your stack is T2,000 at this time. Also, for every buyin, there have been an average of 3 rebuys and/or addons (obviously, you can't find out the exact number, but 3 is about right for this tournament, again IME). Thus, the value of each chip is just about $0.106, but you only pay $0.10. However, the value of chips in your stack might be 2-4% lower than the average stack, because you have a big stack. Thus, your gain from adding on may be pretty tiny, and only amount to a dollar or less for your $40 double addon. At this point, you might decide that you'd rather reduce the volatility of your results and forego the addon.
In my play of the games, I do not addon if my stack is more than T1,000. However, by doing so, I may be giving up $1-2 in EV.
Kate, you said you never seem to use your rebuy chips until their value is down to the size of the small blind. I think maybe you meant your addon chips. However, in either case, so what? Sometimes, having that extra bet can make the difference. In a NL event, your all-in raise might be just big enough to get the blinds to fold because of that extra bet. If you lose a hand, that might be the difference between going broke or not. Essentially, on most nights, whether you addon or not will NOT make a difference in your finish. However, occasionally, it will. When it does, it can make a huge difference, and these rare large swings may be where you recoup the entire value of those extra chips.
I made $22,000 once because of a few extra chips. Kinda makes up for the rebuys and addons that returned nothing.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Every one of these tournaments I have done well in I didn't bebuy - seldom added on - My basic rule is if I have over $2k at the break when the rebuy period is over I don't bother. I rarely need to rebuy during the 1st 3 or 4 rounds.
I play reverse to the average bebuy tournament player.
I tend to tighten up early and trap as much as possible with cheap flops. After the rebuy period I tend to loosen up a bit and take advantage of the tighter play with my aggressive gear change.
Rounder,
I agree with your playing strategy. I do not play purposefully loose during the rebuy period just because I can rebuy if I fail to get lucky. I play in whatever manner I believe provides me with maximum chip EV, i.e., I play as if the chips were real money, and try to win as many chips as possible, while simultaneously trying to avoid losing chips, just as I would in a ring game. The strategy I choose is dependent upon how the opposition is playing.
However, I disagree with your rebuy strategy, IF you're saying you don't rebuy when you're eligible to do so, and the rebuy is at a discounted rate from the original buyin (and it's not clear you're saying that, so we may not be disagreeing with each other).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
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"Given that some of the big stacks will be held by very strong players"....
Calvin - It seems reasonable that "some" of the big stacks belong to strong players.
However, I don't think all the strong players have all the big stacks after the first hour (when the rebuy period usually ends and there is an opportunity to add-on). An hour is just not enough time for the cream to rise to the top.
I agree with Kate and Rounder that the extra chips seem unneccessary when you do well in a tournament. The rebuy and add-on chips sit at the bottom of your stack and may not to be used until the blinds get so large that the rebuy and add-on chips seem trivial.
I also agree with FossilMan that you should probably rebuy and add-on, as long as you can afford to do so. My reasoning is a little different from his. The tournament really starts after the rebuy and add-on periods are finished. At that point, usually starting the second hour, you can see other players eyeing your stack (as you probably are eyeing the stacks of others). The small stacks are most vulnerable to attack and are usually (but not always!) the first to go.
(1) I rebuy simply to have enough chips to avoid being in the position where every time I check, bet, call or raise some opponent is attacking to try to get me to commit my whole stack. In other words, even if the extra chips are not used in betting, they give me more latitude to play my regular game without having to fear being attacked just because I have a small stack.
(2) A second reason to rebuy is to be able to play one or two extra rounds, which may possibly move you up in the money when your chip supply gets low.
(3) Lastly, casinos are in business to make money. I don't think they make much, if any, money on the small tournaments I enjoy. There are usually not enough players for the casino to make it's guarantee unless players bebuy and add-on. Although the rebuys and add-ons all go into the prize pool for the players, the casino benefits indirectly by being able to make it's guaranteed prize pool from the money contributed by the players who rebuy and add-on. Since I like playing poker (especially tournaments) in casinos, I want casinos that promote poker tournaments to stay healthy. By rebuying and adding on, I'm doing my bit to assure the continuance of poker tournaments.
Gotta keep those casinos healthy.
:-)
Buzz
Buzz pointed out that the tournment really begins after the add on period ends. Would you enter a tournment where every fifth player had twice as many chips as you do? That is heart of what I was trying to get at for that is essentially what you are doing in my example.
Tunica is withholding 3% of the total prize pool for dealers. The TOC is withholding 2.5% of the total prize pool. I think these self righteous sanctimonious dim wits should be boycotted. One has to get to the last two tables to win 3%. I think 1% is much more correct.
I strongly feel that tipping is not something that you should be required to do. It seems to me that if the service is terrible, then you should not have to tip. When I play in my regular games, there are several dealers that I don't tip because they do their job so poorly, while there are other who I tip reasonably well because they deal in a quiet and efficient manner. That's where the emphasis should be. My opinion is that if the dealers are good and the tournament is well run, the tournament directors shouldn't have to worry about the tips.
Obviously there are some players who will insist on stiffing the dealers no matter how well everything is laid on for them .Everybody else who is tipping is in effect subsidising the nontippers as if everyone stiffed the dealers no competent dealer would want to work.However I do feel the tips should come from the highest placed finishers as deducting money from a player who is gettinghis money back or just a small profit doesnt make a lot of sense.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
"There's no logical reason winners should pay the employees. We ALL take a chance entering a tournament. Dealers should be compensated because they do a GOOD, TECHNICAL JOB, not because somebody happens to win."
Someone has to pay the employees. It's either going to come directly from your winnings or indirectly from your entry fee. They're not going to deal for peanuts.
From my experience the majority of dealers at the tournaments have been good.
When you do your tax filing, can't you deduct this expense?
I agree with padriag, let the big winners pay.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
Well NO! I was under the impression that I could deduct the tip. Now, that I understand what you're saying.
Badger writes:
>>It's ridiculous for US citizens to win prize money, pay taxes on that, tip, and pay taxes on that portion, then have the dealers get their share, and have them pay taxes on that again! Are we freakin idiots?<<
I couldn't have stated this any better myself. There are other fields besides poker where this happens as well.
I just did a quick survey on my 1999 tourney tipping. Turns out that even at the infrequent rate and not huge stakes at which I played last year that I have a burden on a lot of money that I didn't actually win. Switch this cost to the EF, and it all goes to the Sched. A. Everyone but stiffs should be embracing this "tax."
JG
as long as putting the required tip into the entry fee doesnt start moving up like sales taxes do. also do you really think that the winners will not be pressured anyway to still leave a tip. or that they will leave one anyway. the real problem as i see it(thru my rose colored glasses) is that the dealers need to be paid a good wage at the start. then they are not dependent on the players to provide their living. if need be then the casino can raise the time charge.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
So when I go to Tunica for the tournaments. I should not tip the dealers. Correct? Since they are being paid the 3%.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
One table satellites are easily solved in that all you have to do is calculate the man hours(usually one) and multiply by a typical load rate(say $20/hr). The "standard" at WSOP one-tables is $20 as they typically run one hour. Note that even at the lowest stakes ones, 3% would be $48 for an hour, tough to justify. As always a solid formula for tipping is burn rate x man hours x your share; note % never comes into play for this calculation.
JG
What about tipping the dealers in the satillites?
I have cut my tournament tipping way down the other day I left $20 for a $1500 win. Still over 1% I did privately toke the final table dealer as I know they pool the tokes and divide them equally. I always thought they should add some juice to the tournament as even the losers benefit from the dealers services and an extra fiver in juice would not kill anyone.
It is generally acknowledged that casinos do not put on tournaments to make money. For the most part they are money losers. What Tunica and the TOC are proposing are not tips. Read the difinition of the word. This tax is similar to welfare.
Deleted at the demand of the poster.
It is clearly not a tip. This is a tax. It is similar to a transfer payment. It is taking money from the players to give to an employee who does not earn a livable wage. I have a simple point. If I don't like something all I can really do as a consumer is to withhold my action. I recently played in 7 tournaments at the commerce casino. I finished 3rd in one. I won$3270. I tipped $70. I found the competence of the dealers to be of the highest caliber. After playing 7 tournaments I won $400. I will be playing in tomorrows freeroll.
recently i have had a little success at nl he tournaments. not having experience in the matter, i simply asked what was a fair tip. i was told a minimum of 5% is custom. have i been swindled? what is the actual custom?
scott
A 5% tip in a small tourney is pretty reasonable. Calculate the dealer down hours and you'll see that it really isn't that big of tip. Let's say you win $2000 in a small tourney and give $100 for a tip. Typically, you'd be talking about at least 6 tables, and even if you figured just 6 dealers (no breaks), and a 3-hour tourney, you have 18-dealer-hours. That comes to a tip of a little more than $5 per hour, still much much less than they would earn in a live game. In the big tourneys, tips in the range of 2-3% are more appropriate.
i was worried. but now i'm not.
scott
7card stud, $20 entry gets you $1000, 1 optional $15 rebuy during the first 3 rounds gets you another $1000. Round 1 starts with $5 antes and $25-50 beting with the rounds lasting 20 minutes. About 180 entrants with 1st paying out about $2K.
My question is am I playing to tight. In three tournamnets I usually see the river card once or twice during the first four rounds, while muckings about 90% of the time on 3rd street. If I am in late position and it is just the bring in I'll also take a card off sometimes. Are you supposed to play looser than normal during the rebuy period?
I just can't bring myself to play medium pair with small kicker with 2 big cards still to act after me and a couple of my cards dead. I get a two to a flush, see that three of my suit and one of my rank is dead and I muck. Gut shot draws I toss without a second thought. If I DO decide to play a big pair I am in their betting and raising aggresively. But playing this way I don't have enough on the later rounds. I either am anted away or cant push my hand for value (allin on 4th street with trip dueces and I make my boat on fifth street. Then a raising war breaks out as I watch on 6th street. Doh!)
I am I playing to tight? I did split for 1st in one of the three tournaments I played. Do I just resolve myself to the fact that sometimes the cards aren't there and my tight play will be rewarded another day?
"Are you supposed to play looser than normal during the rebuy period?"
It depends on how your opponents are playing. If they play a lot of hands during the rebuy period, and hardly raise at all on third street, you should definitely be playing more hands. The ante you mention is quite high, which should also encourage you to enter the pot more often and play more aggressively. Medium pair-small kicker is *not* an ideal hand to play against many opponents.
Yes and No.
This has come up in a few threads, so I'll share my opinion and I'd be interested in others' perspectives on this issue.
I treat connectors as very weak in pot-limit. Ax suited and small pairs are ideal to limp in with when the money is deep. But even for 5% of your stack, connectors will rarely have strength on the flop (this is a huge difference when you flop a 4-flush with Ax suited as opposed to a suited connector), you will often flop a 4-draw that you will have to fold (which eliminates much of the equity of your hand), and non-nut flushes can easily cost you your stack. And it's often difficult to get paid off those few times they do hit. I might take a shot in a live NL game where the stacks were huge compared to the blind, and the opponents in the hand were calling stations. But in tournament conditions, I think it very rarely pays to play these hands at all.
Comments?
Lament of the guy getting up and walking away from a tournament table is "THEY WERE SUITED" I don't play cards in tournaments BECAUSE they are suited I play the ranks and let the flop take care of the rest.
Axs is an exception late in position if I am drawing to a flush I want it to be the nuts. Otherwise I want connected cards I can see the flop cheaply with. NO 3 card "backdoor" action for me in torunemants no matter how big the pot is. In tournaments pot odds mean little to me as when you are out of chips you are gone.
AK - I am just as happy with off suit as suited actually I like the off suit a bit better for a bunch of reasons.
I may get some grief about thei but I an used to it and it works for me - suited cards are way overvalued but so many people and is one of reasons people lose at poker they play them to often and for to long.
After giving this some thought I think you're probably right. They do have some value in the re-buy stages of the tournaments I play in which are more like a super-loose cash game but I wouldn't put much faith in them after the re-buys end.
The problem is I think you need more help from the flop than with Axs. A 4-straight or 4-flush on its own is not great. A completed flush on the flop is awkward because you might be drawing dead but you can't afford to give the lone A or K a free card. Even two pair has its drawbacks - there will be a straight draw on board and if the other card is close you could easily end up with 4 parts of a straight on the board which could kill you - you could get bluffed out even if no-one has the straight. Plus if you have bottom two pair you can get counterfeited by a running pair.
What you really want to flop is either a completed straight or some kind of 2-way hand. If you have 76 and the flop comes 754 you're actually favourite over Aces heads-up. Multi-way you may not know whether you want the draw to come in or not but you've got plenty of outs and can go for a big semi-bluff.
A small pair on the other hand is 7-1 against getting the help it needs, but flop play is easy - no set, no bet.
So I think the connecters have some value in late position with deep money but in a tournament after the re-buys are over probably not much.
Andy.
since i steal so many pots in no limit i love the suited connectors. on those occasions when i may get called i can sometimes pick up draws to still beable to win with or play on. even when you make them you may still get paid off for a smaller bet. if you play them with the intention of only winning with the best hand then they should be mostly folded. but if you play big bet games at all you cant win only playing hands that must make the best hand. i wont call for 5% of my stack against someone who will have a hand to play on but may open or raise for that amount or more.
I don't focus only on making the best hand in any betting structure. I frequently steal on the flop or after in PLH or NLH. But in the early rounds of small tournaments where (1) the money isn't too deep, (2) a lot of people tend to see the flop, and (3) there are many calling stations in the field, suited connectors are problematic for the reasons in my post.
Played my first limit hold'em tournament. Also first time in a casino ring game. $45 get T2000. 44 players. T3100 at first break with about 30 left. Went to final table with T7200. Down to six players (pays 4) with about T6000. Three huge stacks. Two with T1500 or less. Had only played Sklansky recommended starting hands all night. Never lost a hand I played (lucky) and never flopped a winner on hands I mucked.
Tiny stack all-in on blind (T1000-T2000)and survives. Other tiny stack all-in on blind and survives. First tiny stack all-in second time and survives. I get blinded out sixth.
Keep wondering if I could have done anything different. Had a great time, consider myself lucky to make final table, and will try again.
Appreciate any comments.
Sounds like you did great. How did your last hand go -- what did you go out on and how many big blinds worth of chips did you have at the start of the hand?
Next to last hand had T3000. Posted BB for T2000 and folded. Last hand posted SB T1000 and lost.
There is no hand you should have folded in your big blind here. You say you posted 2K, and only had 1K left in your stack. If there is a single raiser and everyone else folds, you must call. You don't even need to look at your cards first. You will be calling 1K to win 6K. There aren't many matchups in HE that are this bad. Plus, folding doesn't guarantee you survival for any length of time, since that 1K you saved will go into the small blind next hand.
Here is a situation where you might fold. Your 3K stack is by far the shortest, and 2 or more players go all-in before it is your turn to act. If it appears that you can move up to 4th place and get some money by simply folding here, then it might be worthwhile. The problem is with 1K, you have almost no chance of advancing to 3rd place or better. However, if winning your big blind hand will also give you very little chance of advancing to 3rd or better, but folding might get you 4th immediately, then you can see the value of giving up the higher spots and playing for 4th place only.
Doesn't come up often where this is the smart play, however. Usually, when so much of your money is already in the blind, you should just call no matter what your 2 cards are.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks Fossilman. Sounds like great advice. Hope I get a chance to try it next tournament.
scott - you are under 21 right? I was just wondering where you had access to tournaments that let you play... or do you just have a good fake ID?
would you also care to give us a quick summary of how you did and what the experience was like?
thanks, underage
7-Stud tourney, we are down to 5 players. Total chip amount: 120k, 4 of us got between 25k and 35k, one player got ~7k. ante is 1k, forced bet 2k, limit 4-8k.
After ante i got 27k left. Player with a 4 brings it in for 2 k, a J completes it to 4k, I got (A4)A and raise to 8k, small stack folds, Player with a K calls, J calls.
4th street: we all get rags, non of us has 2 suited cards on the board, I bet 4k, the K calls, J folds.
5th street: both get rags, no pair on the board. I bet 8k, K thinks for a long time (he has little more chips than me) and calls.
6 street: no pair both of us again. I bet all in 7 k, he calls and pairs one of his cards on the river to make kings up. Iīm out of the tourney with Aces.
I thought a lot about this hand, and am pretty sure, that it was a big mistake to bet on 6th street. I didnīt knew this player well, but i was dead sure that he had a king AND that he wouldnīt have bet on 6th and 7th street even with kings up. The proper play IMO would have been to check 6th street and bet when I improve on 7th street, check (and call) otherwise. Maybe I should have even said something like: "I only bet when I make 3 Aces on the river", or something like that, to stop him betting kings up. After he called on 5th street, there was almost no chance he folds on 6th street, and there was no way for me to know, wheather i was beat already.
Any comments?
m.a.
your goose was cooked any way you face it. if you checked on 6th he would certainly bet kings up on the river as he must surely know that when you check on the river with less than a full bet left you cannot possibly beat kings up. only if you can save the 7 by folding when he bets does it start to make sence so you are still in the tournament. if you can be absolutely sure he will not bet a hand you can beat can you do this. then it pays.
Stud tourneys are just fluky this way near the end when the limits are high. When the last handfull of players only have enough chips to play one hand to the river, often, your best play is to just chop up the prize money. This might even be a spot to consider dumping ANY pair (let the small stack get anted off and improve your guaranteed finishing position or chop share), although I confess that I always have fired it in there with any kind of big hand. As I related in an earlier post, I once TOLD a tourney opponent that I had 3 Aces on Fifth Street and still had the big suckout put on me at the river. Stud is my favorite game -- but because the suckout factor is so high late in a tourney, it's not my favorite tourney game.
I think a check would have been in order on 6th, but only in a tournament situation such as you described. You are obviously against a hand that has as great a chance of improving as yours does, and the last 7K are worth saving because it will be seven hands before you have to go all in, and can move up a notch or two on the payscale just by waiting out other players.
On the other hand, betting it and winning the last 7k from your opponent does not aid you a great deal if you will now be a pretty substantial chip leader when you win.
The fewer chips you have, the more each individual chip is worth.
NL Holdem Final Table, three players remaining. Blinds are $500 and $1000. I have just posted the BB. My remaining stack is $4000, button has $8000, and SB has has $6000.
I pick up KTo in BB, button raises all in. Is this a good enough hand to call him down on. I do not have any particular read on him although he has been slightly more conservative in his play than either myself or the SB since we went three handed (we have each been raising all in about one third of the time, but the button has missed out a time or two) .
Thanks, Calvin
Man, this is tough. This is a very marginal hand for the situation, and it really should come down to what you know about the player. Even though he's been more selective about raising than you and the other guy, in a 3-handed game I sure don't need a hand better than KT to raise on the button, and he shouldn't either. If he needed more than this, he'd be falling behind on the raising curve even more than he has.
But, if you call and lose, whether to a better hand or worse, you come in 3rd. If you win, you're in a great chip position, but still haven't locked up anything extra. This is definitely a situation where you need to be more inclined to go for survival, because you are playing to move up to second as well as to win it all.
If this were a cash game, I'd say call most of the time. It is only the tournament situation that makes it a possible fold.
One important consideration. If you fold, there is a good chance you'll also have to fold your small blind. This will drop you to $3,500., which is short, but still plenty to put in a full-sized raise when you have the button next. If you fold this hand and the next, what are the chances that you will be able to steal from the button when it's your turn? Has the guy who is currently the small blind (and will be the big blind when it's your button) been giving up easily? If so, this is a further reason to pass on the KT and wait. Also, if you fold now, how likely is it that the other guys go to war the next hand, and maybe eliminate a player while you sit back safely and watch? If there is a good chance of this happening, this again is a reason to prefer folding now.
As you can see, there is no definitely correct answer. If it was me, I would base my decision on the players. You stated you had no particular read on him, but what have his tendencies been? Have you ever seen him raise from the button with a weak hand (maybe back when you were still 4-9 handed)? Even if you don't have a tell as such on him now, you still should know what he's shown down earlier.
If you really have no idea what he's playing, then call. I say this because it means you need to get lucky to win, since you won't be outplaying these guys, so you might as well try to get lucky with a decent hand like KT.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg is really on here and everyone should follow his line of thinking. id call.
I'd call without thinking.
The guys that play in Montana and Connecticut must be more honest than the NYC players if Ray and Greg think this is close.
Mike,
I believe I said something to the effect of I'd call easily if this were a cash game. What I mean by that is that I think my hand is at least a 50% winner on average here. However, it probably isn't 60% or more of a winner. And since it likely isn't a huge favorite over the spread of hands that the button is raising with, I may be better off to fold and guarantee my survival a bit longer, thereby allowing the other 2 players to go to war and move me up to second place by default.
If other players are doing their best to eliminate each other as quicKly as possible, it is amazing how readily you should fold a good hand. I once played a HE tourney where at the start of the final table one lucky fish (who played every hand) had over half the chips. Then, to my amazement, every one at the table kept taking this guy on. They would bet and raise him to the river, then whine and moan as his T8 that flopped top pair beat their unimproved AQ. I sat there with almost no chips, only won a single pot, and finished second. Everyone else just crashed themselves onto the rocks while I sat back and watched. I even folded QQ preflop one hand simply because 2 players had put themselves all-in before it was my turn to act (yes, I had the best hand preflop, and yes, I would have lost anyway, to the fish). Admittedly, when it got to heads-up play, I had only about 3% of the chips to his 97%. However, my tight play had gotten me 20% of the prize pool, even though I started the final table in near-last place. I managed to win a couple of hands from the fish, then lost with 44 to his Q3o that turned a Q. It was too bad, but if I had won that hand, and maybe just 1 or 2 more, I would have gotten up to about 1/3 of the chips, and had an excellent chance to win it all.
Late in a tournament, survival really should have a huge effect on your decisions.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I almost posted a response to this earlier but I couldn't decide what the best play was ! As Greg says, it's really close. If you're looking around for a tie-breaker, you could consider the payout structure. You are guaranteed 3rd place. Consider the (2nd minus 3rd) prize money and the (1st minus 3rd) prize money. The higher the ratio of the former to the latter, the more inclined you should be to, er, fold. Second prize big, fold ; Second prize small, call, that's it. Another factor to consider anyway.
Andy.
No.Youve answered your own question when you said he was playing a little less timidly than the other guy.
I hate KT and dump it routinely but here short handed??? Although you may be dominated by AK or KQ you may also be looking at an under pair which is close to even money. Heck he could have JTs and now you are dominating.
You have a chance to double through and be chip leader with a chance for 1st money.
I say let's gamble!
If you give up the blinds now you are gonna get shot at a lot.
Rounder,
I'd agree with you if it was a satillite, but I would try to move up to second.
Hey, With KT in that position less than 8 hands from being blinded out. I go for it. Take 3rd or go for the gold.
Like I said, let's gamble.
even Rounder is coming around to my way of thinking. i wonder if the world is coming to an end.
So, what is your line of thinking? I'm clueless on this one.
Ray,
I play a short handed table a bit differently than a full ring.
I thought most would adjust to these situations.
The raiser in this situation by his raise and by his previous play is giving you a clue that KT may not be in great shape.There is also the consideration that he is chip leader and is probably not going to jeopardise his relatively comfortable position.Looking for marginal excuses to call ignores the fact that the mathematics assume there is a showdown.Id rather lose my chips raising on the blind than calling with KT in this spot.I suppose if we all had the same opinion there wouldnt be a game.
I read most of the responses above, and while it looks like a close call, one aspect that no one considered is the price. You're getting $6,500 to your remaining $4,000 (a little better than 3-2). I'd considered the possible hands and odds I'm facing (taking all 5 cards). K-T versus "any-Ace" (i.e., A-5s) is about a 3-2 dog. My guess is that this is about the average hand you are facing, so pricewise, you're still left in a coin-flip situation. But you are going to be blinded off in 9 more hands, and K-T might be the best hand you'll catch. I think you have to call.
While Ax is a likely hand, most good players I know will also move in from the button here with a lot of other hands like Kx, a decent Queen, any pair, and even middle connectors. As usual, it somes down to your knowledge of the player, but against a typical tournament opponent who is aggressive enough to make it to the final 3, I think your hand is beter than a money favorite against the "weighted-average" hand that he is holding.
That is what I meant when I said I would call "without thinking" above. My inclination (and instinct) would be taking these factors into account. I call in a flash, because I don't want these guys to beleive I would even CONSIDER mucking KT here. With hope, it will temper their aggression against my BB.
I don't think we're really in disagreement here. Your opponent is likely to move in on you with about the same number of lesser hands than A-5 as he will with better hands than A-5. And since the price is the same as the pot-odds, you're left with the two intangibles as the deciding factors: you are not likely to be dealt a better hand in 9 hands and the point you mention that you don't want your opponent to think you'll give up a hand that good.
For the record, the button had A9. He made Aces. My rationale for calling was that if I did not call, my stack would be short enough that the button could take a shot at me the next hand and still have a playable stack if he lost.
In retrospect though, I think I made a mistake. One of the posters pointed out that I had answered the question myself when I said that the button was playing a little more conservatively than either myself or the SB. I did have a read, but just didn't think it through. Thanks for all of the answers, they have given me much to think about.
KT is about a 7 to 5 dog against A9. You were getting about 7 to 5 odds on the call. In a money game this would be a neutral EV call, even if you saw his hand and knew you were trailing.
I would probably even gamble here in a tournament, unless the other guys were folding too often in the blinds.
A-9 versus K-10 isn't quite a 3-2 favorite. Pricewise, you had a small overlay. Don't let results cloud your analysis.
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