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Second round of the event, 25-50 blinds. I have around $1900 in chips, more or less what I started with. Haven't played a hand in quite a while.
Barry, who's just busted Johnny Hale and John Bonetti, and who has a *huge* stack, limps UTG.
I find AhTh, limp behind. Annie Duke (tough table, eh?) limps in, one other limper, both blinds play.
Flop comes KhTs3h. Blinds check, Barry checks, I bet T200 into a T300 pot. The field folds, Barry raises another T400.
What's my play?
- target
I moved all in. He had AK and called, and I didn't improve. :(
Thanks for all the responses.
- target
Its the start of a no limit tournament and the blinds are 2 & 5. I am 3 away from under the gun. I have about 415 in chips and everyone else has about 300ish.
I am dealt AQ. There is one limper to me and I raise it 24. All fold to the limper who calls. The flop comes 7/7/2 with 2 hearts. Its checked to me and I bet $41 thinking I still have the lead. The limper check raises me another $40.
What should I do?
Results:
I pause and decide he doesnt have trips because the bet just didnt look right to me. I dont believe he has a pair of deuces because I can't imagine a hand that he would limp in with in that position that contained a deuce. My biggest concern is a small pocket pair 8's or lower. I just have a feeling he is making a move but Im not sure exactly why. I decide to follow my instinct and push all in. He pauses and finally calls.
He turns over A8 of hearts and hits the 10 of hearts on the river to beat me.
I lost the hand but I like my play here. How big of a favorite was I here? 2-1 on the flop and 4-1 on the turn? How do you calculate your odds in a position like this?
Did I make mistake here? What are your opinions?
Thanks
"Did I make mistake here? What are your opinions? "
Yes. If you weren't already beat there were too many ways you could get beat. Your opponent had 12 outs given that you don't get a queen or Ace plus if an A,K comes other than hearts he ties you plus a 2 ties also and there are other possible ties as well. A simple way to determine your odds on the flop are to double your (clean) outs and use that to calculate your odds. In this case your oppponent had 9 clean outs on the flop and 3 more on the turn. For simplicity let's give him 12 outs on the flop. So he has 24 outs to the river. There are 47 unseen cards. 47-12 = 35 cards in your favor. So he effectively has 35 to 24 chances of making his hand. You are about 3 to 2 favorite on the flop. This does not include the potential for ties or the fact that you may already be beat. The pot is not offering good enough odds here to gamble at this point. Given this scenario your best play is to fold.
Vince
Thanks for your comments.
Let me give you some background into my thinking.
First of all, this was a poker pages tournament and raises preflop like the one I made have had good success for me or awakened a sleeping giant, to which I can make the easy fold. So, my raise preflop was to get rid of the riffraff and possible win the pot right there or at worst get heads up with the limper.
Next, I keep reading about the plays that the players make in the bigger tournaments where they make moves based on the assessment of the situation and their instinct. I have typically been too cowardly to follow my instincts and have allowed players to succeed with their moves, only to find out my intuition would have proved correct. I am attempting to advance my game to where I am more aggressive and more of a threat and be aggressive when I feel I have a read on an opponent or a situation.
Like I said in my results post, his bet just didnt sit right with me and my gut instinct told me he was making a move. I decided to try being more aggressive and force the tough decision back in his court. My instinct proved correct and he was forced to make a tough call. What about his play? Was he correct in calling my raise forcing him to be all in?
The consensus is definately that I was wrong to make the play, but my reasoning for going all in was more esoteric and based on the feel of the situation, not necessarily math and whether I had a made hand.
Are you saying its still correct to fold even if you feel strongly or know you have the best hand in a situation like this,
I lost the hand, but I felt good about my read of the situation and how I acted upon my instincts. I am looking for more situations like this (or I guess I need to find better situations) to make plays. It just does'nt seem to me that waiting for pat hands will ever get you the money in any level of competition, unless the deck just happens to run over you.
Do you see my logic? Am I totally off base here? Any suggestions for better situations to go back over the top of someone or try aggressive action?
Thanks for the advice.
Jeff Fairey
In a live game, your instincts can be based upon tells that you are picking up subconsciously. Sometimes, you just know the guy is weak (or strong), and you can't say why. Online, I wouldn't trust my instinct, unless I can relate it to a pattern of play that somebody has shown. In that case, it really isn't an instinct anymore.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fold. You have two overcards and no draws.
Next hand please,
Ken Poklitar
I have 500, full table, Mid way through. I have A-A on the button. Blinds are 10/20. Two limpers. I raise to 60 and both call. Flop comes 10h,6h,As. I don't have a heart. First player bets 20, next player raises 40, I reraise all in. Both fold. Was my play to aggressive? Or do I want to be making this kind of move? I could have raised small, or just called for deception. What do you think?
I think raising all-in is the correct play. There is 210 in the pot before the flop. There is now 270 after the bet and mini-raise. You have 440 left. After calling you would have 380. You could raise 190 which leaves you 190 to bet on the turn.
If the flop did not have 2 of a suit and 2 cards to a broadway I might raise only 190.
Make them pay for the draw now.
Ken Poklitar
I have been playing small limit and no limit tournys and seem to be very consistant. I start off well and get a good stack. I try to play only premium cards for a raise or big pot type hands when I am late and have lots of limpers in front. Then my hands seem to dry up and by the time 1/2 to 3/4 of the field has busted out, I am short stacked and desperate. Is this common? What can be done to change the pattern? Tom's book helps but only indirectly addresses this problem. The Suzuki text is a waste of money. Any help from the 2+w website users?
John,
This is not really an easy question to answer - hence the lack of replies. While you have decent chips there is really no substitute for playing good poker, maximizing your wins and minimizing your losses. The better you play, the longer till you will be short stacked. If you play really well (and get the breaks) you won't be short stacked until you're already in the money which is great.
More often you will become short-stacked sooner or later. The later the better, but it comes. Now you have to be selectively aggressive. Make your move as the first to enter a pot and raise it up. You shouldn't be getting involved in a raised pot unless you have the goods to beat the raiser. Do it before you get so short stacked that your raise won't knock everyone out and won't help you all that much because doubling still leaves you stuck.
Sometimes this means you have to get involved with less than strong hands. Don't sweat it, just play each situation as it comes.
Hope this helps,
Andy.
Let me give you a few ideas:
1) Strategies in Limit and No Limit are quite different in most situations. Your approach should be as well.
2) Stealing is quite important as the blinds get bigger. This is true for both limit/no limit. Try to get an idea who you can steal from and don't be afraid to try.
3) Watch your stack size compared to other stacks and the blinds. In NL as your stack shrinks the likelyhood of stealing or raising without a caller decreases.
4) Keep track of when the rounds are ending and the blinds are increasing. This is related to the previous point. If you have a 10xBB stack which is an okay stack, when the blinds double you now have a 5xBB stack which is small.
Hope this helps.
Ken Poklitar
Surely it would not have made any difference but:
I think you underbet before the flop and on the flop.
I would have made it the standard 3x the BB preflop raise so a raise to 400 sounds good. Anyway, you got it heads-up and that is important.
On the flop, you bet 300 into a 750$ pot. I would have bet atleast 500$, but since 500 is more than half of your stack, I would have pushed it in.
Final thing, what did you know of the player? Did he slowplay a big hand before? Does he always raise (or reraise)with big pairs ? Maybe some of these answers could have saved you...but probably not.
I think I would have gone broke too here, hey, sometimes you run into a hand, them brakes...
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
You asked what I knew of the player. Well, that was a problem, since this was the first time I had ever played him, and we had just moved to the same table about 5 minutes previous. I mentioned in my original post, I only saw him limp in mid-position a couple of hands, only to muck on the flop after a bet ahead of him.
Had this been a different player, someone I've played against in the past, I probably would have played differently immediately after being called pre-flop. Only because, I know I have a tight image with most of the other players (ones I've played with before), so if one of them were to call me like that, with me raising in early position, I'd be scared of K's or A's. This guy.. looked like a guy that would mess himself with a big pocket pair and an early raise. Bad read I guess.. or he was too chicken-sh** to raise me.. OH WELL EITHER WAY. I'll get him next time.
Lrt's be kind to the guy with kings---could be he was extra cautious fearing you could have aces---you might have played them about the same way?? Jim
Jim:
There's cautious and there's cautious...
When you hold pocket kings and a player pops it ahead of you, I think you almost always have to reraise. Exception could be against a maniacal opponent if you are confident to be heads-up.
You really have to make a hand like AQ or AK pay to see the flop. Also, if the flop comes all low (say 8-6-3)and your opponent is as likely to bet big with an overpair like nines to aces or AK /AQ, you won't have a clue to where you stand unless you reraised preflop. Say you do reraise preflop and he comes back over the top, then you decide right there if your kings are beaten. Aces against kings happen, but you can't start being too cautious about it every time you hold kings and there is a raise ahead of you, because the big majority of the times, you hold the best hand.
A lot of players like to see the flop before they commit big when they hold kings. The problem is that they are loosing a lot of chips. Sure sometimes that ace will come on the flop to give the AK a better pair, but most of the time, the ace won't come. And when it doesn't the AK hand will usually fold on the flop without loosing much. You have to make these hands commit preflop, while they are trailing. Put chips in when you have the best of it...
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
"I know I have a tight image with most of the other players (ones I've played with before), so if one of them were to call me like that, with me raising in early position, I'd be scared of K's or A's."
If this is true then late in a tourney you should be able to steal from early position since your raises are respected so well.
I find it hard to believe that players that know you would only call your early raises with KK or AA. I rarely smoothcall raises from early position but lots of players do so with medium pairs or two big cards. I like the re-raise or fold play myself.
Ken Poklitar
I agree with everything Nicolas has said.
And yeah I would have busted out as well.
Your only chance was if he raised all-in preflop. You would have then had a tough decision to decide if he has AA or KK.
Ken Poklitar
I was wondering what people thought about the $5 tourneys on paradise. are they competitive, are they good practice for live tourneys, and can you use the same strategies used online in a live tourney? i'm sure there's not an exact number or winning percentage that can be given for any single person, but what should an average players' win to loss percentage be in these or any other tourneys. i understand that these questions may be vague, and hard to answer for any 1 person playing out there, but any responses will do. thanks.
I agree that $5 tourneys are a big mistake because of the $1 vig.
But the $10-$30 Paradise tournaments all play about the same, you can beat them long term with solid poker. The best part about these tournaments is that they give you short-handed table experience. For most of us HE tournament players, we so rarely get 3 handed or heads up, that when we finally get to a finals table and are challenging for the win, it's foreign territory. The Paradise tourneys give you a feel for what hands are playable short handed and heads up. It's been very interesting to see that if you play 6-8 hands heads up, or 3 handed, that you can "train" the other players and create an image that you can then exploit. I love making good laydowns in the first few hands, telling them what I laid down, and building credibility for that time when I need to steal a blind or two. Doesn't always work, but it can keep you alive until you find that all-in hand to make your stand with.
I think the others are right that the vig is too high for the $5 ones. That said, I am saving my $ for an upcoming Vegas trip and like cheap practice, so I play them anyway.
My thoughts are they are best for shorthanded and heads-up practice, and OK for your LL live game. They are not very realistic for anything but the lowest buy-in live tourneys you might play. For instance, the "beginners" $25 limit HE tourney at the Luxor in LV.
The play at the beginning is always way too loose. I usually sit back and only play Group 1 hands and maybe medium pairs in late position for the first two rounds. And I am prepared to dump them if I get nothing of the flop or a lot of callers. This stage does mirror a pretty typical live LL game, IMO. People see the flop with nearly anything, play there hands way too long, and pay you off to the river with second pair, etc.. By watching these people knock each other around at the beginning you can get a good read on what you are up against in a particular tourney. A few people know enough to change gears later but not many.
The later rounds are what almost always determines the winners in these tourneys. I have played so few hands that people are making fun of me ("are you awake vinny") and then finished 2nd. That is because I prefer to win fewer big pots then gunning after small ones with a dubious (or no) edge. One thing that separates these tourneys from the "real world" is that there is rarely much blind stealing at this limit. As you move up it is a much more important part of accumulating chips but people call too much in the $5 ones. You can use this to your advantage though.
Oftentimes, there are some good players that make the late game fun and worthwhile. The chips do often flow to the more skillful, even at $5 level, and so heads-up and 3 handed you can find yourself against a talented player or two. For your money, this experience is great. I have learned quite a bit about late stage starting hands, stack management, and playing the player when you are moving up the pay scale. This has allowed me to enter the late stage short and still win.
Another note: these tourneys have helped me understand why good plays I have read and heard about, but never seen, make sense. For instance, checking it down against an all-in player. Numerous times I have seen people bluff out a player to grab a measely side pot and then lose the main pot to the all-in, keeping them in the game. In addition, people routinely call all-in players with trash pre-flop, allowing them to get 4 or 5 times their money. Seeing how these bad plays affect the outcome is valuable and will help you as you adjust to playing more tourneys, for more money and against better players.
Good luck.
KJS (vinny)
thanks for all the feedback. i have been very successful playing these $5 tourneys and just wanted to know how i could assess myself in tourney play thru these tourneys on paradise. i'll start playing the $10 tourneys since everyone pretty much agrees that its a better buy. thanks again and look forward to possibly playing some of you heads up in these tourneys.
pedro
Jeff, you asked "how smart was his call? and "who really made the error here?"---let me be the devil's advocate here---his call was smart, because he put you on overcards, giving you 6 outs against his 15!!--as for error, not sure either player made an error in play. One player may have made error in thinking other one played poorly. good luck, Jim
Bear with me here, I am still working on my game.
It seems to me that he has 12 outs (9 flush cards and 3 eights), I have the rest of the deck. I don't need outs because I am in the lead.
Am I missing something here?
As far as how bad the play was, the consensus is overwhelming against me.
I guess the conclusion I am drawing from this is that people feel that if you have a read on an opponant that you have him beat and he is making a move, you should fold anyway. Unless, perhaps you have a significant number of ways to win if your wrong, because you may in fact be wrong about his hand.
"It seems to me that he has 12 outs (9 flush cards and 3 eights), I have the rest of the deck. I don't need outs because I am in the lead."
Correct. But you don't know how many outs he has or you have when you call his checkraise.
"Am I missing something here?"
In my post when I said I would fold, it was without any type of read of the opponent. Clearly if you know he has Ah8h then going all-in is correct.
The issue of course is how confident are you on your read? There are a lot of hands that could have a 7, a 2 or even a small pair that he could have that would cause you to be an underdog. If this is pokerpages then he could have almost anything.
Going all-in with 2 overcards and no draws against a checkraiser is something I would rather not do.
Ken Poklitar
Now you're getting it.
Just because you're pretty sure you're in the lead doesn't mean you shouldn't fold. In this case, you were right, yet he still had 12 outs. With those outs, he still wins something like 45% of the time. So, when you're right, you're a small favorite. If you had been wrong, you'd have had at most 6 outs, making you a pretty good dog. If you're wrong even 20% of the time here, maybe a lot less, then folding is the correct play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Third round of Super at WSOP. Three players limp in and give me a free flop with 9 7. Flop comes perfect 5 6 8 rainbow. I check and An Tran bets T70 into about a T120 pot. I call and others fold. How should I play hand from here?
Oh, I forgot, I've got about T90 left and Tran has more - about T200.
The other players were trapped between you and Tran? If so, then your call is OK if you feel you can induce one or more of them to call also. Otherwise, get all the money in now while Tran is more likely to call.
Since you did call on the flop, and have so little left, you can bet it now or check and try to induce a bet from Tran. It really depends upon whether you think he might fold if you bet, and how likely he is to bet if you check. It also depends upon the card. If it is an undercard, or a 9-Q, I would check and expect him to bet most of the time. If it pairs the board or is an A or K, especially an A, I would expect him to check behind (but, he is also less likely to call your bet on these cards).
In other words, whatever play is most likely to get the money in the middle. You'll have to judge based upon how aggressively he's been playing, and whether you've seen him bluff at a pot and then close down even when only called before. I haven't played against Tran in a long time, but he's capable of almost anything, and is a very good player.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
NL Mortal sins.
I'm compiling a lis of NL mortal sins. Pleas comment and help with the list.
1) Over betting - Has adverse consequences such as getting married to the pot.
2) Under betting - Allows opponents to gamble on busting you cheaply.
3) Getting Trapped - Stack destruction
4) Turning your cards face up before betting - Probably a bad idea. Just a joke. But the others aren't and this is probably a good area of discussion. So give me some help.
5)
Vince
I'm not sure how to put this into a "sin" category, but the biggest hole in my tournament game right now seems to be playing steal situations badly. I've gotten mortally wounded or busted out several times recently with steal attempts or defending against them.
For example, yesterday I busted out 3rd in a NLHE weekly tournament. At the time I had 2nd biggest chip stack and tried to steal from the SB against the BB, the chip leader, with Kx offsuit. He smooth called my 3x BB raise (3K), then when only a Queen hit the board on the flop, I decided to go all in. He called with Q-10 and busted me. After playing smart for hours, it was a complete bonehead play, but not the first time I've done something like that.
So for me, the sin is stealing/defending with crappy hands, particularly when I'm not stack pressured.
I'd have to agree with you on that Jonsey, I've done the same myself several times. For a while I had the notion in my head that my cards didn't matter, it was all the image I portrayed, but after quite a few correcting experiences, that was changed.
Jonesay,
I like this example. I've done it myself. Let's try calling it "Over Aggressive Stealing". Meaning that we misread a steal situation and raise when we should fold or bet when we should check fold. (not too frequently stealing, that's an image sin).
vince
I don't have a lot of no-limit experience;however,I wouldn't try to steal against the chip leader.
I absolutely don't agree with the first two points on your list.
There are clearly times that you want to overbet the pot. For instance, if you're pretty sure your opponent's on a draw, you should bet enough that he's getting clearly bad odds, which may mean overbetting.
Also, if you are about to put half or more of your stack into the pot, you may want to push in with an overbet to show that you can't be blown off of your hand.
Also, there are times you want to underbet the pot. This can happen when you want your opponent to get apparently good odds, when in fact he has worse odds that he thinks. This happens more often in omaha, where you can have the best hand, and know that you have two of the outs for your opponent's likely draw.
Then, you can lay him odds that seem correct to him, but in fact are poor.
You may also want to underbet the pot if you're trapping, or if you are bluffing and want to look like you're trapping.
On the other hand, by "overbetting" and "underbetting" you might mean "betting more than is correct," in which case ignore the above.
I doubt it, though, since that's not the typical usage.
- target
What if we just say it is a no-limit mortal sin to believe that determining the correct size of your bet "is not that hard."
Heh. Is this a troll?
I agree, of course.
- target
Summarizing your earlier post, I wrote: "What if we just say it is a no-limit mortal sin to believe that determining the correct size of your bet 'is not that hard.'"
You replied: "I agree, of course."
I agree, too. Mason does not.[1]
-----------------
[1] Mason Malmuth, "Re: Amazing Hand by John Cernuto," 5 Jan. 2001 at 2:42 p.m. in his thread of 5 Jan. 2001 entitled "Amazing Hand by John Cernuto."
In a post I made below (see NoLimit Tourney Hand), there was overwhelming consensus that my play was wrong.
This leads me to the following conclusion:
You should fold a mediocre hand (like AQ) even though it may be winning because the cost if you are wrong is greater than the profit if your analysis is correct.
In my example below, I had AQ, my opponant had A8 of hearts, the board was 772 (two hearts). He check raised me after I bet the flop. Assuming the cards were played face up, would you still recommend a fold here?
The heart of the issue in this post and the one below is over trying to decide how far you go with trusting your instincts and read on a particular situation? My analysis was correct, but apparantly my play was still bad.
I'm trying to understand why. Ignore the question of whether I should have played the hand in the first place, I am merely referring to how I played the hand on the flop.
Would you please elaborate why my actions based on a correct read of my circumstances were incorrect? (Realize, this is not a routine play I make and is in fact a play I virtually never make. I only decided to play the hand the way I did because of the read I had in that particular situation.)
Thanks
I already posted a response below but let me add a few things here.
If you know he has Ah8h then going all-in is correct. You are about a 3:2 favorite.
But of course you don't know that he has Ah8h. Very few players can read someone 100%. If you are 80-90% sure that he has a flush draw and no pair then I like your play on the flop.
Normally you can only place a player on a range of hands based on his play of the current hand plus how you have seen him play before or physical tells.
Now since this is pokerpages there are no physical tells.
He could have a lot of different hands based on the way he played this hand. He could have a medium overpair. Some players would play the same way with bottom pair on a paired board or any other little pocket. Now if he has a 7 he probably lets you bet for him on the turn and then raises you all-in but he may be afraid of the hearts as well. So what I am saying here is that the read cannot be based on how he played this hand.
Therefore the read is based on his previous play.
So if you feel your read is based on some type of fact rather then pure gut then I like the play.
Ken Poklitar
If the hands were exposed then of course you call.
Since they're not, you can't be 100% sure of your read. As such, you will be wrong some portion of the time, and on those occasions, you'll be a pretty big dog, with 6 outs at most, sometimes almost none.
So, if you're a small favorite when correct, and a big dog when wrong, you don't have to be wrong very often to be the dog hand overall.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well Jeff, seems you just don't want to give that hand up! O.K.,lets play it face up--you see his flush draw and decide to stop him from drawing, and move in. He sees 12 outs TWICE, figures that's about an even money draw, and calls---leaving you with shortest stack on the table! If your gut feeling tells you that you have best hand, why not let your mind tell you to just call his raise, take one off to see if it makes flush...turn is a blank, and since we are playing face up, now you move in when he has only 12 outs, and should not call! But face down, he may have 2 sevens----using mind over gut, fold.... your hand may be the best,but it's not much. good luck, Jim
Well put.
Your right, I did'nt want to give up this discussion because the play was so unique and out of character for me, I felt like I was making a helluva play given my correct assessment of the situation.
I feel like I need to expand my game outside of A, B, C poker and this is the type of play (albeit not the best spot) that I need to look to make to find additional ways to win outside of waiting for great cards.
Thanks for your insight. I think you and Fossilman did a great job making your points.
Jeff, not much of a limit player myself, but seems ABC may be best there. in P/L or N/L there are 3 elements--the $, the cards, and people-- and plays like you wanted to do there are important, but the situation was not right at that time because the "cards" element was working against a play. keep trying, jim
I think you should call, but I think there could be an argument for folding the best hand in a tournament under particular circumstances.
Suppose it were in the early stages of a no limit tourney: big stacks, little blinds. The opposition is very weak--there are many terrible players in the game. A player goes all in with AK and turns his hand over. Everyone else folds. You have 33. Do you call?
not if it will knock me out of trnmnt if he hits.
I play low limit pot limit HE tournaments, which typically have unlimited rebuys for the 1st hour. During the rebuy period the action can be fast and loose. In these circumstances I have fallen into the habit of limp reraising in the 1st 2 positions with AA. Thus far the tactic has proved very profitable.
I wondered if anyone has an opinion on extending the tactic to other premuim hands such KK AKs or QQ. Clearly the danager is that you run into a pair of Aces but would does this happen often enough to make the tactic rank bad play?
If you think there is a good chance someone else will raise then go for it. KK maybe as long as you can do the right thing when an Ace flops (which isn't always fold of course). QQ I wouldn't personally as you really don't want to play 6 or 7 handed if no-one raises.
AKs is an interesting one. I think it's worth a try to see what happens. A couple of weeks ago I found QQ on the button in a biggish tournament, middle stages. 2 limpers, I raised, UTG then re-raised. I was able to put the hand down because I was sure he was not imaginative to try this without a bigger hand. He showed KK. You may need to mix a few other hands in and I think AKs is a good choice. You can just drop it if no-one raises and you miss. If you hit you could get a good check-raising spot on the flop.
Andy.
Several months ago I posted that the 2001 Biggie would come down to Barny Boatman & Men the Master. I'll stick w/that, but lemme also add the player who impressed me the most during the events I played, Kevin Song.
Song is very aggressive and experienced, has won many big tourneys(inc. the HOF $5K and was 2nd highest American at the Poker Million), and if he gets hold of a big stack would some unlikely to throw it away.
Hellmuth and Ferguson have each made the money three times so far at the WSOP, and David Pham is just blazing hot, so I'll add them, Padraig Parkinson, Annie Duke, and an "unknown" Euro to round out my final nine.
My vote is for Berry Johnston.
My prediction: No women at the final table. (Bet the farm)
-Ben
(Nine handed table this year I've heard)
Anyone want to fade that action at even money against your pick of 40?
..and Mickey Finn & Mike Magee count as Irish/English!
I'd like to see what kind of action you'd like to fade, but I would love to take that bet. E-mail me at the above address and we can set something up. I could have my list of 40 done whenever you need it. I think it would be a lot of fun and I would have extra incentive to root for "my horses" when I am down watching the final table. Thanks and great proposition. J.Brown
You're right about Kevin Song. I had the (dis)pleasure of sitting next to him in a tourament for a few hours recently. He was a Jedi master. I've heard people say of Stu Ungar that it was as if his opponents were playing with their cards face up. I never saw Stu live, but Kevin gave me the same impression. Of course, he knocked me out of the event. Here's my picks for the final table if it's 9 handed:
T.J. Richard Tatalovich Phil Hellmuth Dan Negreanu Kevin Song Hassan Habib John Bonetti Men the Master Phil Ivey
I'm a chalk eater, I know, but I won my NCAA pool this year choosing mostly #1 and 2 seeds, so what the hell. Phil is my dark horse, since I'm an east coast player, and he's shaping up to be the Tiger Woods of poker if he continues to grow the way he has been.
Did Binion's reinstate Richard T. after the banning incident? I've been out of touch for a week, but last I heard, he was not allowed in the place.
Barney is a very, very fine player but I'm not quite sure he's right up with the best. A more likely "unknown" European might be a steadier player such as Pascal Perrault.
Andy.
My 9 would be... Asher Derei (I warned you he was he was gonna win it about 6 months ago), Alan Betson, TJ Cloutier, Hemish Shah, Kathy Liebert, Randy Holland, Men the Master, Huck Seed and .... Me (got to say that just to prove to my backers Im confident if nothing else :P)
Cheers,
Keith
I have to go with TJ. He is the best at GETTING to the final table, and has more experience there than most. This is his year!!!
I just feel like Hellmuth is going to win this year. Only one or two other name players at the final table (Im guessing Scotty Nguyen and Kevin Song).
Final table: TJ, Eskimo, Chan, Liebert, Keller, and if I win a seat again ... me.
Do not underestimate Kathy Liebert, she knows what she is doing and has the seasoning. Jack Keller is still a very tough cookie who plays big-bet cash games every day. Eskimo is always a threat to grab some chips and go all the way (he's been chip leader of the final event many times). And I'm not ready to count Chan out of a repeat victory. TJ at the final table is probably such a short price that there is a big overlay betting AGAINST him.
As for me, didn't your daddy ever tell you not to underestimate a man who overestimates himself?
I think Hellmuth is on top of his game and I favor him to win it all. Of course TJ will always be tough. Juanda has the confidence going in. Liebert had tons of chips last year plus she has a great smile. My dark horse or shall i say fish is Tuna. There will be no sushi for you all if he does.
I'm rooting for Alex Brenes from Costa Rica. I played a single table satallite with him and was really impressed with his play and demeanor at the table. I understand his brother is a great player as well.
I'm in a pretty typical $10 Paradise Poker Tourney. It's Level III. UTG raises. Everyone folds to me in the BB. I have AJo. I fold. Was this correct? I wasn't paying much attention to the tourney, so this is really all the information I can give.
Well it pretty much depends on factors which you did not mention such as what was your stack status? and how many players were left?, i.e. how far were you from the money? Also, what did you know about this opponent?
Usually, you should fold. You'll have no position on the raiser and AJo is not good enough. If you had a very small stack then you could be more inclined to play it. Then the best play could be to reraise and bet in the dark on the flop if there's any chance the opponent will fold. With an average stack, let him have the blinds and wait for a better opportunity.
Also, the closer to the money , the more you should fold. If the opponent is a maniac then you could play it.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
level III is still pretty early, and you often have all 10 still in, usually at least 8 still in.
Unless this guy has been playing no hands, I call and see the flop. I hope to flop a monster and win big. If I flop top pair, whether J or A, I must be very cautious.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
mmmhhh...
I'm surprised here... considering the low blinds, which are if I recall at this stage are 25-50 with limits of 50-100.
If the blinds were larger I'd agree, I'd even tend to reraise. I know he's getting more than 3:1 on his call but do you think implied odds justify the call since he needs to hit big (2 pair) to really feel confident?
I mean, this is limit play. If the flop comes aces high, he won't be able to push it hard if he gets action, same thing with jack high, and with 2 jacks on the flop, he won't get action. Are the implied odds there since he needs to hit 2 pair, and they must hold up, which won't always be the case? Bottom line is, at this stage, it's basically standard ring game play, I wouldn't call with AJo in a ring game, you would?
Please explain.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
If I knew the raiser only raised with group 1 hands UTG then I probably fold. In the majority of these tournies I have played it is just as likely the guy is raising with 77 UTG as AA.
Ken Poklitar
Ken is right. If I know the guy, and he is unlikely to have anything less than JJ or AK, then I muck. If he could also have ATs, 55, KQs, etc., then I must call and try to play good poker postflop. I know plenty of guys in the 20-40 HE at Mohegan who could have 43o and make that raise. The play is typically not that great in these PP tourneys, so you can't be that sure you're AJ is dominated.
Also, I wouldn't assume that you won't get any action if it comes JJx. If it is true, then you should be able to bluff the guy off the pot anytime a pair flops, right?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I understand that what you know about the opponent is critical here. I just assumed the other player was a good one, without any comment to the contrary. So, I assumed he'd be raising with a premium, so I'd be likely dominated.
I agree that if I know the opponent to be looser, then the call is surely correct. Maybe I give my opponents too much credit when I don't know them...
Thanks to you two...
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Certainly not paying attention is not a good thing.
I wouldn't fold. I would call. Against a few players I might even re-raise but that would only be if the player has been a weak raiser.
Ken Poklitar
Lately from reading all the posts about how easy the Paradise Poker tournies ($10 ones) are, I decided to try. Played about 20, came in first once, second once, and then got in 4th to 7th on all the other ones (and one 9th)!
I've followed the suggested strategy of playing tight till it gets to 6 players, then loosening up, but I always find myself short stacked by that point, and with the blinds being so big, I constantly find myself folding hands like AJ with a KT2 flop and a $200 bet from someone else.
I've noticed that the first player to get taken out usually happens at level III, and that many times, by level IV or V, there will still be 6-9 players! (I play from the 1am to 4am time slot, is this a bad time to play?)
I see a lot of other players playing T8s, KTo, etc... early on and ramming and jamming with them, and building and losing huge pots. It seems to be all based on luck, but I always find myself short stacked when it gets to 5 to 7 players (I usually make it to this level). Then I just get blinded out or attacked by bigger blinds and finding myself folding 97o from the big blind.
What is the strategy after "playing tight" till round 3? Should you be a calling station and call even with flopped gutshots or overcards? (I find myself folding a LOT on the flop after round III). Thanks! This tournament play is costing me my bankroll! I'm starting to think people on here that say the Paradise tournies are easy are just trying to get more fish like me to play and lose money to them :).
- Johnny
Maybe they are [just trying to get fish to play]. My record is quite similar to yours. I just can't get used to this limit poker. I'd rather shove it all in and make them sweat !
Andy.
I don't have the numbers right now, but you do (or can get)-- do a little math--say you play 6 of those tournaments--yoy finish first in one, second in one, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth--what is total $$ you receive?---What is total $$ you put up, including entry fees? Is that a good deal?????
If you we're playing the $100 tournies - your winnings would be $1000 (500 for 1st, 300 for 2nd, 200 for 3rd) and your entry fees would be $654 ($109 per tourny), giving you a net profit of $346.
Given an average length palaying of 45mins - slightly longer for when you're in the money and slightly less for when your not, this would give you a rate of roughly $77p/h equivalent to about a $150k a year job
I'll take that 150, Sturat---don't the fees become bigger % in small tournaments? which could change things ? Jim
9% rake in $100 tournies, 10% in all others apart from the $5 which is 20%.
Doesn't make that much difference unless you're playing the $5 ones. Just factor down the hourly earn by the buyin relative to the $100
Johnny
Playing tight early on doesn't work all the time. Personally, I like to play a wide range of hands in stage I, especially with position. Position is REAL important, since there's less people to act after you. This works because a lot of times, the people playing on there won't raise preflop in late position, even if they have a monster. I figure they're thinking they'll slow play 'em and get a lot of action. Perfect time to limp in with 8-9s and flop either the open-ender or the nut straight. The absolute best part of this is that many times, people won't lay down their monsters, even when they've been checked-raised or what have you. They'll pay you off. That's what you want to look for.. someone that's going to pay you off when you flop the goods.
mix it up
CHiP
I think it is essential to play tight early on, unless you get the goods. I fold hands like A,Q all the time early. The reason being the ridiculous structure of the tourney and the rapidly increasing blinds.
It is pretty easy to get into the top five with this method. However, you will often/usually find yourself short stacked. So what - get comfortable with it.
I don't think you are at that huge of a disadvantage even if you have 700 or less and 4 players have 1800 or so. The blinds are so huge that it is a crapshoot at this point. That is fine because you have 5 players worth of dead money to shoot for.
Pick the right hand and go for it. Hopefully you hit and place in the money.
This has worked extremely well for me. I have placed in the money about 1/2 the time (only 25 tourneys though)
I've placed in about 1 of every 3 $5 & $10 PP tourneys that I've played, using generally the same approach. I'll see quite a few flops, especially if there are no raises ahead of me, early on, easily mucking my cards if I don't flop something good. I won't draw much, especially if I'm not drawing to the nuts.
Just as you pointed out, later on, if you only have 700 against three stacks of 1500 or so, you're alright. Since you start with T800, you could essentially limp every hand and only end up at 700. To me, this is worth it considering you could flop the nuts and since there are so many maniacs playing at that point, it'll pay off NICE.
Worse case scenario is you end up seated with some GOOD players that won't let you limp in that often and you end up paying 20 or 30 to see the flop. That gets expensive. But if you can limp in, catch the nuts, and get paid off by 5 callers, within your first 5 hands, it's all good.
I remember one $10 tourney, the VERY FIRST HAND, I flop the nut straight with some rags. Of course every A-x or pocket pair is gonna stay to see if they catch on the turn or whatever. Perfect time to slow play early, turn it up on the turn, and hit 'em hard on the river. I ended up having a stack somewhere around 1500 after the FIRST HAND! Early chip lead is a nice thing to have!
Best thing to do, IMO, is just keep everyone guessing.
CHiP
So far I have made some money after about 20 of these things. I finish in the money about 1/2 the time. My problem is more often than not it is 2nd or 3rd place.
In the 1st round I usually play any pairs or big cards or suited aces. The next few rounds I tend not to play small pairs or suited aces unless I have gained a few chips.
Basically in rounds 4 or 5 you need to get a good hand to get your chips up to 1200 or 1300. I try to enter the pot only as the raiser after round 3 except when I am in the blinds.
If I get that good hand and I am up to 1300, then I wait for a good steal situation, wait for a good hand or watch the loose players kill each other. It is fairly rare that the low stacks and big stacks don't go after each other at this point. I try not to be involved unless I have something. A few times I have knocked out 3 players in one hand at this point in the tourney.
In my 20 tournies I usually finish in 8th/9th/10th or 2nd/3rd. I rarely end up in 4th/5th/6th. I am still deciding what I am doing wrong when it gets headsup since I seem to like 2nd place finishes. That is the advantage of hand histories!
Ken Poklitar
Many folks advocate playing ultra-tight for the first 3 rounds. I don't. I play slightly tighter than my normal ring game strategy. I am less inclined to play hands like AJo, ATo, KQo, and the like, though slightly more inclined to play small-medium pairs.
My record is worse than it was last time I reported. At 18 events, mostly $55 and $109, I was obtaining a 125% ROI. I hit a cold streak of 6 non-winners in a row, and have since made some back, and am at about a 75% ROI now with about 28 events played (the last 10 or so all $109 events).
I think I might average a long-term return of 100% in these things, and at least a 50% return is definitely possible IMO. If I played $11 events, I'm sure I could average a 100% return long-term. I just see too many AWFUL plays by the players.
Last night, when 4-handed, a guy is all-in, and 2 players are active. There is a sidepot, but it is vanishingly small. On the flop, the first player checks, and the maniac bets. First player folds, the cards are dealt out, and the all-in shows an unimproved KQ. Maniac loses with 85o, no draw on the flop. He bluffed out another player with 8 high and basically no sidepot, to let the all-in live when down to 4 of us. Amazingly bad play. The only reason it could ever make sense if he did it in collusion to help his friend/partner survive his all-in. However, I suspect he's just stupid.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have never seen the check it down strategy when someone is all-in in these tournies.
Ken Poklitar
Only 28 events! Come on Greg, I'm at 240, you need to find more free time ;-)
I played one last night, and I shouldn't have, even though I won it. There was a 75-150 stud hi-lo game at Foxwoods, and I could have played an hour+ of that before the NL HE tourney, instead of doing a PP tourney. By the time I got to the casino, the game had broken, and I had to settle for half an hour of 15-30 stud.
Fortunately, the 75-150 stud high game (I busted out of the tourney early again) was very good, and I won a few bets playing that for a couple of hours.
So far, my record is 2-0 in 75-150 games. It's a lot of fun to have the bankroll for such. I can win in one hand what used to be a very good night at the 10-20 game.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Damn you Greg!!!
I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to afford the GAS to get there, and you're playing in the 75-150 game!!!
Why oh WHY cant I win the BigGame?!?
Hopefully I'll see you down there on a Tues soon. Being away I've had the hives totally disappear, it'll be a lab experiment to see what happens when I return.
Its not easy being green, but its even harder being RED ;-)
Not playing ultra-tight early on, you might win some more pots. But the pots are so small! Winners early on will end up with $900, to mayge $1300 dollar pots, versus me (ultra-tight player till round III) with say, $650 by round III, cause I limped with AKo early position once or twice, and folded when I didn't hit the flop, etc...
Having $900 or $650 at round III doesn't make that much of a difference. If you play looser early on, you can easily get down to $300 by round III. Anyways, it still really seems like a crap-shoot! I would think by always guaranteeing that 3 or 4 players go out before me, that I would average positive (since then I'd be playing with a pool of 6 players and with 4 players' dead money), but I still can't seem to win these things! I see the mistakes players make like raising to drive out opponents when someone is all-in, but players in general are just really aggressive when it gets shorthanded, and with my small stack I can never survive.
I guess what I'm asking for is, how do you play a small stack of, say $600 against 5 players with $1800-$1200 each? And blinds being 100-200, or *gasp* 200-400? What strategy should you use?
Johnny wrote: "Having $900 or $650 at round III doesn't make that much of a difference."
This is absolutely false, and is an old issue here. If your stack is 50% bigger, you are about 50% more likely to win. You are not necessarily exactly 50% more likely to cash, but 50% is a decent approximation if there are still a reasonable number of players who must get eliminated before cashing.
It often doesn't seem that different to you, but if you were to play a few hundred of these, and write down your results going forward from different stack sizes, you'd find a strong correlation between percentage difference in stack size and percentage difference in results.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hi,
I'm looking for advice on whether this laydown is good. I get TT UTG at the 100-200 level in a $10 Paradise Poker tournie. I raise and get one caller, someone I've seen play all sorts of hands, but who has a huge stack, and I have a slightly below average stack (due to playing tight). He calls from the SB, BB calls. Flop comes 233. Check, check, and I bet, SB calls, BB folds. Turn comes a K. He bets out???
What should I do? I ended up folding, but I'm finding that I rarely win these tournaments (I fold a lot in situations such as this). My thinking was that he has a 3, and with that K coming out, he thinks I'll call since I have "AK". Or then, maybe he has KJ and just doesn't care what I have. Thanks!
- Tony
Hard to say. There are plenty of guys out there aggressive enough to bluff in this spot. If you call him down, you'll pay 2 big bets with the chance to win 6. How often might he be bluffing? If the chances of it are high enough, then call. If nothing else, there's about a 4% chance you'll spike a T, which is highly likely to be good.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
limit hold'em, blinds $25 & $50, rebuy period over.
You're on the button with J-Q offsuit, three limp, you limp, small blind calls, B.B. chacks, six total see the flop. Flop is A-K-Rag(different suits). Two check, one bets, one calls, one drops, it's your turn. Neither the small or big blind are likely to check-raise, would you call, raise, fold? Would you just peel off one card? If you have a big stack, would that tempt you to draw?
After reading T.J.'s limit hold'em book, I'm kind of leery of draws since he discourages outside straight draws, and non nut flush draws in tournaments regardless of the pot odds(he doesn't seem too crazy about nicer draws also, like outside straight draws with overcards, or ace high flush draws).
Also, I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to routinely raise pre-flop with this type of connector hand when last to act, since there are many flops that create a draw for you? If the table is fairly passive they'll likely check it to you. Sure, in the situation I discribed you wouldn't have saved any money by raising pre-flop for $100(same as limping for $50, then $50 more to call the flop bet), but the pre-flop raise will often prevent a bet and "raise" on the flop before it gets to you, which is what really kills your odds(cuts them in half almost).
-Don
With an average stack I would fold. You are probably drawing to 4 outs. It is quite likely someone has an A or a K.
If I have a big stack I might call but probably not. The bigger the stack the more likely I would call.
With 3 limpers I would not raise with QJo on the button. If no one is in yet I probably raise.
Ken Poklitar
8 bets when it's to you, and you're about 11:1 against hitting. If you catch on the turn, it's the nut hand, and very likely to hold up and win. You'll be very likely to collect much more than 3 more small bets, so the odds are there. I would call, especially since you're so sure that the blinds won't check-raise.
If you miss the turn, you almost certainly will fold if it's bet again. If it's checked on the turn, take the free card.
Don't raise preflop with QJ, unless you're in a position to steal. Against this many opponents, someone almost certainly has a better hand than you preflop, and you also aren't likely to be (much of) a favorite in terms of pot equity either. Limp in and hope you flop something good on the cheap.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Seems to me thou art are a dead duckie...I would speculate all that stayed after the flop already have a better pair than you can come up with, or are looking to split that straight with you.
i wouldnt risk the irreplaceable tournament chips on such a weak draw... u are just barely getting the implied odds for the call mentioned by fossilman... if i have a medium or short stack i say its a definate fold b/c u dont wanna risk chips on even money or very slightly profitable draws... especially after the rebuy period.
peter
While the big boys are duking it out in the WSOP I played in our home game last night. I lost $8 and was first knocked out so I had to order the pizza. Oh the humiliation !
Back to the drawing board :-)
Andy.
So was the pizza good?
Ken Poklitar
It took an hour to arrive and they mixed up the garlic bread order. And everyone called me "pizza boy" :-)
Tough beat.
Take some time off, get a part time job to rebuild your bankroll, and try to think about what you did and how it felt to order the pizza.
I think Mason covers 'Ordering the Pizza' in Poker Essays III.
.
The big boys finishing out of the money are out $10,000.
Final table includes :
1 Men Nguyen 210K 2 Devilfish 110K 4 Tsipriladis 48K 5 Deeb 42K
No disrespect to the other finalists but their names are not familiar to me. The full line-up is on Pokerpages anyway.
So who do you like ? I reckon the Fish can go all the way this time. I can tell you he will be really up for beating "The Master".
Andy.
I think you have to like The Master here. I know things can change rather quickly in pot-limit, but Men is starting with almost 40% of the chips at the table. (Ngyuen and Ulliott have about 60% between them - it's hard to imagine any of the other 7 winning.)
Men knows how to play a big stack, and Ulliot always comes across as just a hyper-aggressive maniac without that much real skill. Maybe he has something else to his game, but it never appears that way. If their stacks were reversed, then I'd give Ulliot the green light, but with the stacks as they are, I'd put my money on Men.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Has way more to his game than that Greg.
In fact I would say he was nearly the consumate P/l and n/l tournament player.
(although I wouldn't want a stake in him during his side action!!!!)
It should be a great final... one for the audience to love... Im going with the Brit
Cheers,
Keith
Ah, you see, I've only seen him in person in side action, specifically some of the PL Omaha games during the WSOP. He came across as a hyper-aggressive gambooling fish. Can he ever notch it down?
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Definitely. I haven't had the (doubtful) pleasure of matching up against him face to face for any length of time (just a couple of brief encounters) but I have no doubt that he is as good a tournament player as there is in Europe. Maybe his aggression will catch up with him over 5 days but over 2 I'd back him against anyone.
Andy.
ive played hundreds of hours with dave and he is one of the toughest shorthanded players at big bet ive run across. ill take him for my dough
the devilfish is just great
there simply isn't a more intimidating player in the whole of europe - a 'better' player perhaps, but a scarier more impenetrable one, no way - with a large stack he is fearless
I have much less experience with him, so my opinion is not strongly founded. Since Ray disagrees with me, I'm probably wrong.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"No disrespect to the other finalists but their names are not familiar to me. The full line-up is on Pokerpages anyway."
Mike Sexton is one of the best known (and best) all around tournament players. He was also involved with founding the TOC.
Apologies, I am aware of Mike Sexton's record but he is (was) very short-stacked.
Andy.
I believe it was at a 4Queens PLO. As I heard it, DU had 98% of the chips right before a break. Mensky just wanted to get it over with. DU said something like "You need the break to think about your strategy". Men went nuclear.
After the break, Men promptly doubled through about 5 times, all starting with the worst hand, before going all in with the best hand and promptly getting broke.
Should be great theatre; wish I was there. I'll take Men here.
That's what I was referring to when I said that the DevilFish would be up for it ! He made some quite uncomplimentary (to say the least) remarks about Nguyen in a TV documentary over here.
Andy.
As you are no doubt aware, 1 Boutin 2 Devil Fish 3 Nguyen. The one guy in the top 5 starting chip positions who I didn't mention won it.
Perhaps I should have asked for 2/1 odds on Ulliot finishing higher than Nguyen and I might have got a taker or two :-)
Andy.
Ok it was only pokerpages, but the question was still vexing me all day.
Im sitting early in the tournament with about 600 or so, and a new player arrives at our table with 3000+, three times what everyone else has (and god only knows how this person got it).
Said person announces "I have to get back to work" and starts going all in preflop EVERY hand. Its going to take 3-4 people busting this person before the tournament gets back to normal and every time you lose, you are out and that person rebuilds.
How in gods name can you deal with this situation?
I have seen this before on Pages. Generally this is the dork who snaps off a few of the best players right away in the beginning i.e. they have AA or KK and place a smart bet and he goes allin with J9o or something and wins multiple times. Usually this person does not last long when the blinds increase and true play wins but, to answer your question, I feel you have two options:
1) Be patient and play your game. It is afterall, only pokerpages and there will be another tournament. You will have to risk busting out however, a double up (or two or three as I have done in this situation) can put you on track for the final table. So IMO, play your game and probably even tighter than normal.
2) Get a REALLY big baseball bat and beat the donuts out of the ragmunching loser all the while asking politely for him/her not to come back and waste everyone else's time with HORRID play especially while they are at work anyway...... ;-)
Wait for a big pair (JJ+) or two big cards (AK/AQ) and go after him. If he is truely going allin everytime then if I was on the button I might lower my standards to 99+ and AT+/KT+.
Ken Poklitar
Play any top hand, as long as you can be sure it's just you and him. If somebody else is in or is likely to come in with you, then you need a MUCH stronger hand.
Here are the hands that win 2/3 of the time against a random hand: 88-AA, AKs.
Here are the hands that win 60% of the time against a random hand: 55-AA, A7s, A9o, KTs, KJo, QJs.
I would go with the second category if heads-up, and the first category if one other player is in (or likely to come in). If lots of players are coming in, then stick to big pairs, AK. Or, if you don't mind gambling with the crowd, then play any hand that plays well multiway, like suited connectors and suited As.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
wait.
Ya And don't forget that some other player could take all of the bullys' chips and then the first bully leaves the second bully to bully you with all of the first bullys' chips. You've got to respect anyone in the hand with this loose player. I think it suddenly becomes the best of both worlds! So don't play scared. If you can start to control the rest of the players then it will continue to come down to the bully and you. You can't bluff her. but you can bluff the rest of the table. After all what kind of a hand does the bully have EVERY TIME!!??
R
QcQs two off the Big Blind. 60 players left in Poker Pages tournament. Blinds 15/30. UTG calls the bet. I have 685 chips and rr 66. One late positon caller: both blinds fold. Flop is 987 of spades. UTG checks. I bet 123. Late postion player folds. UTG calls. He has about same amount of chips as me. Kc comes on the turn. UTG checks.......what do you do?
I'll post ending action and results later.
after he's checked i'd put him on the ace of spades and bet the max willing to let it go if a spade comes and he bets or likewise if an ace comes
Move in, and stand up!
I am not a big fan of your betting so far. Your raise of 66 preflop is too small with one limper already in. With no limpers I would raise 90. With one limper I might up that to 120.
On the flop there is 340 in the pot and you are betting 123. That is similar to a limit bet. This is no limit so I would bet closer to the pot. There are so many possible draws that you want him to pay for it.
Now on the turn you no longer have an overpair. You still have the Queen of spades and a nice pair. Your opponent could have a decent King or the Ace of spades. If he has AK with the ace of spades you are in trouble.
If you check, then that may induce him to bet on the river. I might bet 123 again and hope he doesn't checkraise you all-in. If he does I would fold. On the river I probably just check.
Ken Poklitar
OK.....here's the situation. I had literally just been moved to the table. Had not had a chance to observe either table or player action. With a whopping 20 seconds to make a decision, I considered:
- UTG pre limper range of hands to call the pre, then my pre rr and then my post flop bet. (I did not put him on a group one hand {as I believe he would have rr'd pre with a group 1 hand}, but could be anything from group 2-5, given typical limper play @ Poker Pages)
- My stack size, his stack size and relative stack size at this stage of tournament needed to really compete.(I knew I had to grow stack to seriously compete)
After consideration of above, I pushed allin. He calls. As comes on river. He turns over KsTc and I'm history.
After discussion with friends, I believe ohKanada's critique of my play is right on the button. It may have not effected the outcome, but...."Lesson learned".
Same problem happened to me at that tourney
Now with QQ I push a big bet preflop and on the flop I go all-in, happens what happens and I hope for the best.
My bad beat story? I didn't push enough my queens (8 players left........) and a guy with J-10 suited catched 2 running clubs making a flush
as you said, results would have been same---and I think this would be true maybe 90% of the time, whereas allin bet will not be called 90% of the time. THUS----- Jim
The bully post below reminded me of a very lame recent tournament experience. I was playing in the Friday night NLHE tourney at the Orleans after getting bounced out of the WSOP event, and we were down to about half of the field. Oklahoma Johnny Hale sits down at my table and announces "I'm tired, I'm going all-in on every hand blind." He then proceeds to do exactly that and wins about 3 pots in a row to become a big stack. He does it again (blind) and I look down at A-9 suited in late position with everyone passing in front of me. I had a big stack, so I reraised all-in to isolate OKJ, and he turns over Q-3off. Hits a 3 on the turn to beat me with a pair of 3s. Next hand he's all-in again and I have pocket Jacks (now half-stacked). I call, he turns over 8-7 off and knocks me out with two pair on the river.
He was eliminated by the time I got out of the bathroom, and I couldn't help but think "I can't believe they've actually named a WSOP event after this guy."
Here's my question. Let's say there's 4 players left at the final table all with equal stacks. It's you, and 3 players who are all planning to go all-in on every hand in which they are first to act. What's the best strategy and are you a favorite or not?
CH
Due to the percentage payback of tournaments the best strategy is to let them knock each other out. It might be right, depending on the exact payouts to play aces or kings.
The thing to realize is that if there are four of you left and the stacks are all equal (and everything else is even) you have a 25 percent chance for first, second, third, or fourth respectively. However, if there are just two of you, and you have 25 percent of the chips you still have a 25 percent chance to finish first -- no change here, but now have a 75 percent chance to finsih second, and a 0 percent chance to finsh third or fourth. Obviously this is a much better situation, so unless you pick up an absolutely great hand, you should just sit and watch if they are pushing their chips in without looking at their cards.
" Obviously this is a much better situation, so unless you pick up an absolutely great hand, you should just sit and watch if they are pushing their chips in without looking at their cards. "
The same is true even if they are looking at their cards. Look at it this way. If you know you are playing with aggressive players that are willing to gamble it is better to let them knock themselves out until you get one of them heads up. thnen you can start playing. Your objective is to win the tournament, yes. However, that translates to winning the most money. Your strategy must consider the play of others. When they are suicidal, let them die.
vince
It's of course a ridiculous play on his part. He is old though....don't be too hard on the guy. Age catched up with everybody. Look at it this way; He gave you a really good shot at doubling up.
I once played in a rebuy tournament with Johnny. He made a substantial bet into me and I asked how much he had left. He said, "Don't worry about that son, I have more coming." He rebought right after that hand.
An interesting hand cropped up the other night on a pokerpages tournament, which I wanted to share, not least because it was a common situation that is not just particular to online play.
With half the runners gone, no-limit holdem, the blinds were 10-20 and I was one of the table leaders with about $1200. I had been fairly aggressive to date, coming in with a raise and betting the flop most of the time too. I limped in with Q8 both hearts for the $20, and there was no raise (about 4-5 callers including the blinds). The flop came Q10x, with two hearts, and an early position player over bet the pot to about $180.
My first reaction was to either fold or raise (I call these hands either/or hands). Fold, because if I hit a brick on 4th street and he bets I will pass, and raise because I may be in front or drawing good, and not knowing which way I want to go (either/or again J), to raise to put the pressure back on him. In fact, if I thought he was a good player, I would most certainly raise (because he’s more likely to pass). However because this was pokerpages and the standard of play I had seen so far was poor, I wasn’t convinced that a raise would loose him so I just called. Everyone else passed, except one of the blinds. (Both these players have about the same stack as me.)
4th street brought a surprise – a Q! And both players checked to me. Delighted, I bet 500 into a pot of about 700-800 and the blind called, but the original bettor passed!
At this point, based on the play I had seen at this table, there was no way I could put him on a hand – he was equally likely to be playing second pair, scared trips or a flush draw.
The river brought a low heart and my remaining opponent checked. I went all in for over $500 and the other guy went into a reasonable period of thought. (Again, in a live tournament I may have checked the end back too.) Eventually he called and showed K3 of hearts to just knock me out with a higher flush and a few more chips.
All comments and criticism welcome
Big Dave D
Once you've decided to play this hand and given the flop, turn, and river that you found it is a pretty impossible hand to get away from at any stage (FWIW i think calling on the flop is fine because you have top pair rather than just a bare flush draw).
the moral is of course do not play trash like Q8 suited or unsuited. having lots of chips before the hand makes the play even worse. i know it's very easy and very tempting to play 'marginal' (i.e. bad) hands when you have chips because the initial call is pretty insignificant but:
a) a few of these calls quickly add up to something and whilst that may not hurt you there and then as the tourno progresses it will as you'll want all those chips you gave away thanks to loose calls back when you only have an average stack at the final. and;
b) remember the old adage 'be careful what you wish for, you might just get it' - this particularly applies to marginal hands, you get what you want and it's still no good as this hand illustrates (p.s. playing K3s is no better by the way!)
I think these are all valid points. However I'm experienced enough to pass top pair in these situations. I'm not so much trapping myself but playing marginal hands to try and trap others. For example, I almost put in a little raise preflop with the hand! And even though I hit the flush draw as well, I really did consider passing. I suspect big bet players fall into two camps - those that play ALOT of hands and those that play very few. IMHO, I think the first style is better if you can play it.
The question is still about the flop - should I have raised or passed?
thanks
Dave D
i still think calling was fine. you can hit a heart, a Q, or an 8 to improve - no need to go to war yet - if the turn is a brick and he bets out you can pass at minimal cost
in addition if you're up against a good player they are often more wary of a call than a raise. the fact that this is true in this case is illustrated by the fact that he declined the option to raise you on the river with a K high flush - he was obviosly wary of a house which means that he seriously considered the possibility that on the flop you had 2 pair or trips (disregarding the possibility of an A flush but your turn bet doesn't make it likely).
by the way his call of your turn bet (especially given the fact that he didn't raise on the river) was very ugly - even he considered that he could be drawing dead!
I would not play the hand in the first place. But, that was not your question.
Given a choice of raise or fold on the flop, I would fold. No, I would raise. Wait, I am not sure.
It would depend on my instincts at the time. I would tend toward the fold. I am always fearful when other hands call big raises. Many times they are slowplaying a better hand, like two of a kind or, especially trips, and letting you bet it for them. I have trapped and been trapped this way.
A good player would not call a better than pot sized raise on a draw. Of course this player did just that. I think I would base my action on what type of player I was up against. Against a good player, fold. Against a poor player, go all in. When in doubt, in this case, fold.
I've been rehashing an all-in play I made recently. I don't know whether this falls under any realistic definition of collusion and no one has accused me of such, but I'd appreciate some input as to whether my thought processes make me guilty of a subtle form of collusion.
We're down to 50 players out of the original 200 in Round 1 of a PokerPages tournament; the average stack is $1,280. I have about $500 as the result of a couple not-so-sharp plays and a lot of lousy hands.
It's my small blind; I have K-9 suited, one of the best hand I've seen in a half-hour. Blinds are $50 and $100, I have enough chips for three more orbits at best. Everybody folds to me, and I limp in. The big blind raises around $150. He has slightly more chips than I do, so he is understacked as well.
I'm thinking the correct move would have been to fold at this point, but I reraised the rest of my stack. I didn't put him on a true bluff because of the size of his stack but I did figure him for A-small kicker. I was hoping to induce a fold with my all-in, but he called. The board helped neither of us, his K-Qo beat my K-9 and I was out at 49th.
In the few seconds I had to decide whether to fold, call or raise, I thought: "It's getting late and I'm tired. If I hit I'm back to around an even stack." But I also thought that the big blind is a pretty good player (definitely not the madman type that haunts PokerPages), and that he'd be a good player to give my chips to if I lost.
It's the last part that troubles me. Does consciously thinking "he's a good player to give my chips to if I lose" fall under a broad definition of collusion while contemplating playing a marginal hand?
I have no vested interest in seeing the other player win or lose; I do not know this guy from Adam other than he's an intelligent player and that it wouldn't have depressed me to see him make the final cut.
Comments appreciated.
Mike .
The only thing of which you are guilty is having a bad pun for a handle.
I hope you slept well as you should have. Your decision to play this hand in the manner you did was perfectly ethical. It takes two to collude.
Interesting... collusion is defined as two or more players acting in concert to improve the outcome of the partnership or group as a whole. So, you are not guilty of collusion because; first, the BB had no knowledge of your motives, and second, you had nothing to gain.
However, there is an ethical question here. There are many examples of situations, particularly at a final table, when one player may prefer that some opponents do better than others... a preference which often influences their play. I'm not talking about having a piece of someone or an odds-to-win bet, of course, that would be an example of collusion; I'm talking about some other motive such as friendship, admiration, etc. These situations damage the integrity of the game. In your case, though, you are still innocent. This is because it seems as though you were going to play that hand no matter what. You were just rationalizing the play of a mediocre hand to yourself. If the BB had been a reckless jerk, you still would have played your hand... you just would have rationalized it by thinking "I'm going to ram this hand up that jerk's a$$" or something along those lines.
So I agree with Michael 7, you should sleep well. And your handle is, in fact, what you should feel more guilty about. :-)
CH
sounds to me like you are more tired than guilty!! you stated there were 50 players left--how do get that info, my screen does not show #players left..??
When you log on to PokerPages, it first opens the lounge, then opens your table. In the lounge it will list the tournament you're playing (i.e. Tournament 189). If you click on that line, it will open another box that will say how many are still playing. It will also list the active players and their chip counts, so you can observe another table if you wish.
JohnnyD
I do not think you are guilty of anything. It would be different if you were tired, did not want to play any longer, and picked out someone to give your chips to by playing a losing hand all in to that person.
Once I got up early to play the 6am tournament, which is 4am where I live. I got tired fast and just wanted to go back to bed. My solution was to play very aggresively with good, but not great hands, not caring if they won or lost. Guess what, they folded to my raises. I won stacks of chips. Now being tired no longer bothered me. I settled down, played solid, and made the final 5.
Hey, I like your handle, but I thought you were female because of it.... oh well....
ommmmmmm
When you're down to 5 big blinds or so worth of chips, there is NO hand that you can call with. It's fold or raise time.
If you raised all-in as the first one in the pot with K9o, I'd have said that's a reasonable play. But just calling with it is a very bad play, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I appreciate the responses from everyone.
I don't know whether I'll ever be *good* at poker, because I still make far too many mistakes at inopportune times. I don't want to fall into a pattern of not applying critical thinking to past games.
For what it's worth, I've made two final-five (50+ players) money finishes ("money finish" being a subjective term when playing at PokerSpot, of course) and one 14th (60+) in three of the past four tournaments I've played at PokerSpot; the advice given here has helped rather significantly. If I could just apply the stuff I've learned here to Paradise ring games...
I *could* change the screen name, however. What do y'all think of: Muckey Mouse, Muck Jagger, Tiltin' Berle, Flop Wilson and Ray Zee Titanic?
(Sorry, Ray.)
Two weeks 'til vegas.
Mike
You're FIRED!!!
Here's a hand that has given me nightmares since I played it at the NEPC a couple of weeks ago. I'd appreciate your comments.
We were down to the last 3 tables, all in the money. In fact, this hand occured about 5 minutes after we had resumed play from a break we took after making it to the final three so I don't have any info on the majority of player at my table. The blinds were 1000-2000 with an ante of 500 (if I recall correctly). Full table. The tourney chip leader is to my immediate right. There is about T570000 in play. Pay offs increase 100$ from 25-30 to 20-24 to 15-19 to 10-14 and then more than doubles for the final table.
I am 1 to the left of UTG and I have AQo. I have an above average stack with about T32000.
I raise to T8000. All fold to the cut-off who moves-in. He covers me and he is one of the unknowns. All fold. It's up to me.
I am getting slightly less than 1.7 :1 . Frankly, I read him as strong and folded. Also, I still had an above average stack after I folded so I was still in good shape.
I am now wondering if, considering the odds, I should have called. I doubt he would have made that play with less than AJ, 88 and up maybe KQ (even though, as I said I did not know anything about him so maybe he was a very good player capable of doing this with any cards...who knows?). Some hands I dominate and some which the odds give me a green light to call even if I am trailing. Of course, if he had QQ, KK, AA or AK, the odds did not make up for it.
Against an unknown opponent, who calls here?
Also, if you do call, what minimum hand would you do it with?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I fold. He most likely has a reasonable pair or AK.
Remember if you don't know him, he probably doesn't know you. Therefore since you raised from UTG+1 I would expect him to respect your raise.
To call I would want QQ+ and probably AK. Even AK would be a close call.
Ken Poklitar
In his position, he must think you must have JJ or a higher pair, or AK, possibly AQ. He would need a better hand than he thinks you might have. I do not think he would raise you with less than KK. Not at this stage.
I do not think he should raise you with AK. If you have a high pair, you are a slight favorite to a big favorite. I think your fold was correct. You are either behind or dominated.
My experience with AQ in the face of a raise has been bad and I fold it easily in those situations. If you get a piece of the flop and are beat, it will cost you many or all of your chips.
I agree with the posts above, but I would add one thing. I'm not sure if you routinely raise a certain amount or not (4 x BB, or pot size, etc), but I like to set a precedent late in a tourney after a break to tone down the standard raise size. I do this with strong hands and steal attempts as well and adjust my strategy based on which hands I end up having to show or lay down.
Interestingly, what you will find is that if you just make a double-the-blind size raise from early position after a late break, a lot of players will be suspicious and you will get respect. You will only be raised by a premium hand, so you can get away cheaper if you are. You MAY get some more callers, but that's OK with a hand like A-Q, because you could really do some damage with a flop like 10-J-K or Q-Q-K. I really like using the underbet as a powerful tactic late in a tournament, I'm not sure if anyone else does this too.
Nic,
Even if he is good enough to re-raise with a less than premium hand, I doubt that many would do it with 3 players (button + 2 blinds ?) behind him yet to act, any one of whom could wake up with a premium hand. If he was in the BB then this might be more of a consideration (and in the SB slightly more).
About the only point in favour of calling is that inching up the ladder doesn't help you very much now. You're going to have to see off 2/3 of the field from here to increase your $$$ significantly so gambling in the right spot is not so bad.
But on balance I don't think this is the right spot. If I had QQ or AK I'd go into a big think, anything less I would fold without too much problem against an unknown opponent in that position.
Andy.
Along the lines of Craig H's post, I would have raised a little bit less, probably to T6000. In my experience, raising to 6 here is going to steal the blinds almost as often as 8, and you will save the 2 when you are reraised and must fold (which is the correct play here, IMO).
Unless the player is a known loosey-maniac type, AQ is stealing hand, and not much more. Only when the reraise is small (because the player is all-in) do you call with it (very few exceptions).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I make it 16000 in the pot when it comes round to the BB (3000 blinds + 5000 antes + 2000 call + 6000 raise) if the raise is 6K. I might be tempted to call with a few hands if I have a large stack in the BB for these odds.
Would this be a mistake on my part, or should the raise be bigger (pot size would be 10) ?
Andy.
He was mistaken about the antes. I don't recall what they were, but they are never that big at Foxwoods. If the blinds were 1 and 2K, then the antes were probably about 200. So, a pot-sized raise would be more like 9K to go, but 6K will still do the job almost as often, so why risk more?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
That's certainly possible Greg, heck if you say the antes are never that big at FW for 1K-2K blinds, I'll take your word for it.
This, of course, probably changes Andy's statement (because there is now less $$$ in the pot)and definitly makes a fold more the right play.
I get the point of the 6K raise, thanks.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
nt
nt
We all like to have chips. The testosterone kicks in, we feel like a man, we feel powerfull, we feel like noone can take us down. I am wondering if this can be taken further.
Has anyone ever thought or has ever tried to see if the number of chips bet could be varied considering if you want a call or not? I am not talking about an amount here, just the number of chips bet.
I'll explain.
I'm guessing this would only work against the very weakest players. Say you want to bet 300, would a bet of 12 green chips be more intimidating or a bet of 3 black ones ? If an opponent sees that if he calls he will loose say 2/3 of his green chip stack then may be he'll be more inclined (subconsciously) to pass. I dunno. On the same wavelength, would a bet of 3 black ones increase the chance of a call? I understand this would not work against you or me but say against a timid player or a rock, would it?
Comments?
Nicolas fradet (ThePrince)
In summary: Yes. I beleive that the "intimidation" factor here will effect the player i.e. the limit player in the tourn because he thinks NL is no different OR the average/less than average NL/PL player who may understand the "game" but not the man. Albeit a different world, in PokerPages, I do not bet $100, or $500 or $1000. I almost always bet in increments of 9 or 4 eg: $19, $199 or $999. The stack size on that $999 bet is quite impressive ;-) and have seen comments in the chat box of "wow" and "uh-oh".
Just my thoughts.
I don't think that you can make anybody fold a hand that they otherwise would have called with because of the number of chips that you use, not even the most navajo (novice) player. However, I do agree with you that there may be a potentially subconscious "play" with regard to sucking an amature into a hand. A lot of inexperienced players will often want to call more than they should with marginal hands. A single chip raise may appear to be an easier call... hey, it's just a chip. But NOT if it's their last big chip! Aha! If they have a stack of greens and only one black, you might want to raise with your green chips instead.
But all in all, I don't think it's worth the effort. Usually in a tournament you are more interested in getting people to fold than getting them to call. In fact, I would ALWAYS rather have a pot uncontested than risk my chips, even if I'm the favorite.
CH
On pokerpages, I have thought about this in terms of do I bet an amount equal to their stack, or push my whole stack in. I think pushing my entire stack all in is more intimidating and not as likely to get a call. If I only bet their stack, it seems like more of a personal challange that they may be willing to answer with a call.
I have no idea if I am correct on this, but, if I do not want a call, my whole stack goes in. If I do want a call, I will bet only a part of their stack or, at most, an amount equal to their stack. This would depend on how many chips they had left and what I think they might call.
Good post. I noticed that in my live games when I have great hands I shove large size chips and at opposite with my bluffing hands I shove small size chips. THe contrary of what I have to make. For the more observant players this is a good hint for them. (Subconscius actions?)
In both these cases, a good player might be able to use this as a tell on you. Unless you're sure that you have the psychological edge on your opponents, it's best to keep it neutral.
This works with all sorts of "reverse tells", I just don't bother normally because it's just as liable to be counter-productive and I'd rather be concentrating on other things.
Andy.
13 players left in the free No-limited tournament
blinds 150-300
I am after the big blind and got AK. I have T2300 , I raise 400. One player with the same stack size call the 700...
flop..A23 I Goes all in. Player quickly call
turn 8 river Q
He show mee a pair of 3.He got trips on the flop.
I fineshed 13....thinking about it, how mutch should I bet on flop ??. Should i have raised more then 400 before the flop ?? maybe 1000 ?
comments please
(sorry for bad english)
Before the flop in the BB with one limper I would raise about 1000 which leaves me 1300. Now assuming just one caller, I would then go all-in on the flop.
In your case I like your all-in bet on the flop. There is atleast 1550 in the pot. You only have 1900 left so a pot size bet only leave 350 so I would go all-in. It was unfortunate for you he flopped a set.
Next hand please, Ken Poklitar
Yes. These baby raises are just asking for trouble.
Andy.
A,Q is a good hand to draw to, and seems your preflop raise wad about right. you were beat before the flop,not just after he made a set. rather common for some snmall pocket pair to beat 2 big over cards which moved in before flop. that hand was just unlucky for you. both in ring games and tournaments, the no limit betting causes a lot of all in bets which are not the right thing to do--having played NL & PL for many years, I think I can say that I've seen it cost as much as I've seen it make. good luck, Jim
I would make it 900 to go preflop, and then bet all-in on this flop. If he called me preflop, I would also go broke here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
thanks for advice poker players
I would have raised 4 times the big blind (1200). I've read that with AK yoou want to win without seeing the flop. A raise of 1200 might have won the pot outright. Good Luck. Joe
PokerPages tournament.
It's still relatively early in a No-Limit tournament on PokerPages Round 1. I have about T450 in chips and the blinds are 10-20. I have pocket rockets in mid position. A couple of early limpers and I raise to T100. One late caller. Both blinds fold and limpers fold. Flop comes 8-2-9. Later caller has about T100 left and I put him all in. I win the hand as rags come on the turn and river.
My question is, how should I place AA early in the tournament 10 handed? Was the raise pre-flop large enough?
Lawrence Ng
I'm not sure what you mean when you say:
How should I place AA early in the tournament 10 handed?
How should you place it? well it's the best hand early, or late, at a full or short-handed table. So, you should play it accordingly. That means going for it all the way if you have too. I don't want to start another debate here, as this subject was overdiscussed a month ago.
Anyway I think I would have raised a little bit more. You say a couple of limpers, I'll assume that means 2. I'd make it T125 to go, maybe more since this is pokerpages. With a raise to T100, you are giving one of them 170:80 odds (2.1:1), with implied odds this could be enough to make a call profitable. This is of course if noone enters the pot until it comes back to them. With T125 they are getting less and therefore will entice them less to call.
Actually, you want to pick a number that only one opponent will call. If you think T150 is necessary to get it heads-up, then by golly raise it to that amount. At this stage, you want a call with your aces, but you certainly don't want a 3-4 handed pot.
Hope this helps,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
First Im guessing he means "how do you play AA" not "place AA".
I think the preflop raise was too large. I always want my opponents to call when I have the best hand. There are flops that immediately blow AA out of the water, but they are not that frequent. Id prefer a preflop raise of 3x BB, and then barring some kind of crazy board, push it all in on the flop. I don't mind if 2 or 3 people call my preflop raise. Just more money in the pot for me.
AA wins more heads up, but always remember the risk-reward ratio; less risk, but only one person's money in the pot with you.
I still believe his preflop raise was a bit too small.
Like I said, you do want a call, sure...but I really don't think you want 3, even if you have aces. You'd call a miltiway pot with them but that does not mean you want to make one when you raise. The trick is maximizing your profit. Sure you'll make a bundle againt 3-4 opponents, but you won't win as often. I'd rather go against 1-2 players who have contributed more than 3-4 who called less. Plus with implied odds, opponents are now getting a much better price on their call. So, they are not making a big mistakes when they call with a hand like 7h8h in a multiway pot. If you invite trouble, you'll get it.
Nicolas
In NL, I really don't want to play AA against the field unless I am limping in for a small fraction of my stack and playing it somewhat like a small pair (i.e., flop a set or be prepared to fold). It is too expensive to call down a POTENTIAL bluffer in NL, whereas in limit if you receive heat postflop you can usually afford to make the call-down, especially since they might be betting top pair only, or another overpair to the flop.
Unless you can truly read your opponents and know very accurately when you're beat and when you're ahead postflop, it is very hard to play AA postflop against a field with lots of money left in everyone's stack.
Now, if I can get a large fraction of the money in the pot preflop, then I'll take on the field and the statistically larger return, because I know I won't really get outplayed postflop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I normally raise 3xBB with no limpers. So that makes it 80 to go. With a couple of limpers I probably increase that to 100 or 120.
So I think you played it just like I would.
I try not to get fancy and raise a smaller amount to try to get lots of callers. I like one or two callers at the most.
Ken Poklitar
With a couple of limpers already, why not raise a very large amount, if not all in. Obviously, you can't get called by a better hand. One of the early limpers (or players left to act)may call you with AK or KK or QQ, leaving you heads up with a dominant hand.
Raising a small amount gives your opponents huge implied odds. Once the flop hits, with 4 or 5 opponents, AA's could become very difficult to play-- Particularly against opponents who are likely to make a big move at the pot with a draw or something.
allan
Im going to Vegas for the WSOP tomorrow.. Ill be playing the 3k n/l and p/l holdem tournies plus the championship event...
Any 2+2ers there say hi..and maybe we can have a beer.. ill probably be in the satellite area wearing a QPR or Carolina Panthers cap.
Cheers,
Keith
Keith,
Make sure you bring a marker pen with you in case you have to change it to QPR / Wimbledon :-). I'm more concerned about Barnet's crunch game tomorrow myself.
Good luck,
Andy.
Dont put me on tilt before I go!!! (there will be plenty of time for that when Im there :P)
Keith
Good luck Keith.
Hope I see your name on the money list,
Ken Poklitar
I'll also be playing the 3k plh. Over the weekend, I'll mainly be playing satellites and 25-25 pot limit hold'em. I don't really have any distinguishing characteristics, other than being fairly young, and thinner an d better groomed/dressed than most players.
My name is Michael and I will usually be wearing a black leather sports jacket and drinking a beer (or two).
I will look for you.
Keith,
Good luck and win some cash. I'll be there from May 10th until the end. Of course, if you happen to play a hand against me I wish you bad luck.
Mark (mah)
I'll be there Saturday (tomorrow) and Sunday playing in satellites....I'm playing the Seniors on Monday....and if I have any money left, I'll play the NL on Tuesday.
JohnnyD
I'll be in town from Sunday May 6th. Save your money and stay out of my satellites ;-)
I am new to tournament play and I am having trouble understanding two things
1)Which tournaments to play 2)Chance of placing expectancy
I played a tournament last night - 80 players, $100 buyin, 1600 in chips, 15/25 starting blinds which double every 20 minutes.
Is this a good tourney to be in or does the rapidly increasing blind structure make it a crapshoot?
I got a healthy dose of 10,3o. Only played 5 hands - there were no other even close to playable hands other than these 5. Lost with Q,Q and K,K.
No big deal. Except I am slightly short stacked (1000) and the blinds at 200/400. Difficult to battle back in this situation unless I can double a couple of times - which I didn't.
Such is life. Except I noticed at the final table there were 5 complete fish (which we killed a few in a ring game afterwards) who had no business being there.
Is a tournment that would allow for five fish making it to the final table a good tournament?
Also, in the big tournaments I constantly see the same names. Do the top players get to the money almost every tournament? How often should one expect to place?
In this one, I can't see anyone playing my cards better. I had my best game and most decisions were mostly black and white except for a tough laydown with K,K (that turned out to be correct).
Your tourney is structured very fast, and luck is a very big element. However, that does not mean that you won't make a profit in the long run, you just won't make as big a profit per tournament as you would if it were slower.
No, good players don't make the money nearly every time, not even close. A great player like TJ might enter 20 or more of the events during this WSOP, and make the money no more than 3 or so times.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I always choose a tournament that has 20 or 30 Fossilmen in it. I like being surrounded. It's just like being back in SCHOOL, if you get my drift.
Vince
Heh, I'd give my left nut to be 3/20. :) So far this year I think I'm 0 for 25 or so .. And I actually know how to play this game. Just keep trying to improve dk, and don't worry about the results.
JG
Just wanted to give my friend Chris Ferguson props for playing awsome in the WSOP so far. He has been in the money five times so far and they're only half way through.
David,
As you know, I am very familiar with the tournament you are speaking of.
A couple weeks ago, the worst player I ever saw won the tournament you are speaking of.
Basically, he played any pair or any connector to the river, kept making sets and straights and won the whole thing.
The very next week, he played in the same tournament the exact same way and busted out in the first 40 minutes!
Even in the crapshoot tournaments, I believe the better players are going to make final table more often. Here in the Phoenix area, where there's lots of very good players, you see many of the same ones on the final table time after time. I've played in 70 tournaments this year in 123 days. Probably 65 of the 70 have been these small crapshoot tournaments. I've made final table in 16, which is about 23%. I think that's a little above average, but not great. There may always be some weak players at the final table, but it won't be the same weak ones.
JohnnyD
Canterbury Park Hold Em Tournament.
Entry Fee $10, Buy in $45 for T600 with one $45 optional rebuy for an additional T1000.
6 of the 10 of the players at the table are loose and inexperienced. Rarely raise preflop.
First round, limits are 15/30 and I have shown down a couple strong hands. I am on the button with 5c6h 3 limpers, I limp, blinds call.
Flop is 2d3d4c. Great flop, but I hate the diamonds.
SB bets, BB calls, Mid-Position (MP) 2-Bets, cutoff calls, I 3-bet. SB calls, BB mucks. MP 4-bets. Cutoff accidentally caps it (he threw in too many chips) and we call. I figure there is two pair or a set and a flush draw against my straight.
Turn is a 5d.
SB Bets, Mid-Position Raises, cutoff mucks.
I consider raising but I figure my hand is quite likely beat right now by a flush. I also consider the small possibility of being counterfeited and playing for 1/2 the pot. I know any diamond or any board pair on the river crushes my hand.
I decide to muck. SB calls.
River is an Ac, putting a wheel on the board.
Both players check. SB has AdJs, Mid position has 44 (flopped a set) and they both play the board. My 6 would have been good.
Was my fold correct?
I think your fold is good more often then it is bad. Based on the flop betting I agree that you are likely against a flush draw.
I wouldn't think of playing 65o except in the blinds so I wouldn't have lost those chips. I guess if you are going to play that type of hand you should do it in the 1st round when the blinds are small.
Hope you did well the rest of the way.
Ken Poklitar
Fold is correct here. I played same tourney last night and it was fish heaven so you can't neccessarily put anyone on a flush. However, you are also subject to a reraise.
Don't play 5,6o on the button unless of course I am seated at the table with you :)
How did you finish? Are you playing the TOC or NL tourneys this weekend?
Thanks,
Normally, I'd never play the hand.
I played the hand because of the good odds and good position I had. With three limpers and passive blinds preflop, I ended up getting 5:1 odds on the button on a hand where I had good position and a hand that I can release very easily if it misses.
If any of the players in the hand had been aggressive at all, I would of course not have played it.
I ended up busting out just before the second break. Things were going OK, but then I had a hand where I was in the cutoff with AA - {can I play THAT one?? ;) }
One limper and I raised, the SB 3-bet , I 4-bet and we took the flop 3-handed.
Flop was 33J. The SB took it down with K3 suited. I didn't put him on a 3 right away because of his 3-bet preflop.
I couldn't recover and was done a bit later.
Still had a good night. Played about an hour of 6/12 with that maniac Skip before the tournament and won $300, so finished out up $200 for the evening.
David,
I may play in the TOC qualifier tomorrow, we'll see. I am still new to tournaments and learning.
I have played in 7 of the Thursday night tournament and my best finish is 7th for $520 a few weeks back.
Thursday nights at Canterbury have been great. Each time I haven't finished in the money, I have won my buy ins plus more in the ring games. I think I finished in the red on a tournament Thursday night only once out of 7 times.
I have zero NL experience, so I won't be playing in that one yet. I am reading the NL section in Super System right now and practicing with Wilson Tournament Texas Hold Em to try to build some NL skills.
Thanks!
Dan
Weekly Limit HE tournament, $50 buy in, re-buy period has ended, and about 4 of 12 tables remain. Blinds are 200-400, I have roughly T3300. Table overall has been quite tight for the past 15-20 hands. Blinds about to double again, probably within the next 2 hands (they double every 20 minutes), so I'm feeling some stack pressure (it never seems to go away in this tournament), but no huge stacks at our table.
I am two from the button with 9-9. All fold to me, I raise, SB and BB call. It is the BB's first hand at the table, he is the most tatooed and pierced person I've ever seen in my life. I've play a low limit cash game with him several months before, and he's a total fish. Complete loose passive player, and this is the first tournament I've ever seen him play. He has about T3800, and I'm scratching my head trying to figure out how in the world he could have this much. Miracles do happen.
Anyway, flop comes 3-6-T rainbow. I'm either way ahead or way behind, but I think way ahead. Both check, I bet, SB folds, BB calls without hesitation. Turn is a 7, second diamond on the board, He checks, I bet (mistake?), he raises. I have roughly T1300 left. I have trouble putting him on a hand, except with my holding 9-9, in my mind, I discount the possibility of an 8-9 made straight (plus, not even this fish is likely to call the flop with an inside straight draw heads up). He hasn't played the hand very aggressively, and I would expect him to play aggressively with a big pair. So a set is what I'm most suspicious of, although 2 pair is an outside possibility (6-7 more likely than 6-T, 7-T, or anything with a 3). Against a set (other than T-T), I have two 9's for outs, and four eights. Against 6-7, I add three 3's and three 10's for additional outs. I think the chance of this being a bluff is very remote.
So I call, knowing I'm behind, thinking I either have 6 outs or possibly 12 outs, with a chance that I'm in even worse shape than that.
Question is ... in this situation, is it better to call and take my chances with bare-bones outs, or to fold and take my chances very short stacked?
This issue has come up before, where halfway through a critical hand, I realize I'm beat, have some draws, and am very short-stacked if I fold. I'm not sure of the best strategy.
Oh yeah, the results (is this about good decisions, or good results?):
I re-raise him my last remaining chips, he calls and shows 6-7 offsuit. Another 6 falls on the River and I'm done.
You're right. Checking the turn is probably best. It does risk giving a free card, but it also limits your exposure to 1 more big bet to see the showdown. If he bets the river, almost always call (because your check on the turn showed weakness and may have induced a bluff).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Joensey,
In this situation I would check the turn and maybe call the river bet. I'd be more inclined to fold to a river bet because of the way he played his hand. But, if a queen, jack, deuce, trey, four, or nine fell on the turn I would bet, because it is not likely to help his hand.
There are a few reasons for this. The first reason, is due to him not betting on the flop. Most players will bet top pair, so this rules out playable hands with a ten, furthermore, if he had a pair of tens in the hole he'll probably raise you before the flop unless he's a passive or tricky opponent. In this situation, I think his most likely hands would be 33, 56, 56s, 67, 67s, 68, 68s, A8s, or K8s since he just called your bet on the flop.
I've been playing the Pages and Spot tourneys and have just played my first couple of live tourneys. I've done ok in both (made Rd 2 etc)butcouldreally use some tips! Have McEvoy's book on order but as am in UK it'll take a while to reach me, so in the meantime does any1 feel like sharing any basic strategies with me?
(The livetourneys iplay have rebuys 4 1st 2 hrs, but i can't afford more than one)
For example, is it worth gambling on marginal hands near the start to try to get stacks? Should i play tight in the middle then loosen up when the blinds get big?
All help gratefully received!
PS These are all NL hold 'em, tho am considering entering a 7 card stud tourney too, so any other info on that also useful
in general you should tend to play like it was a cash game until near the money payouts and then deviate in such a way you feel it helps you get into the money position that your chips warrant. this is assuming you play a tight game, if not all is lost anyway.
No limit with a 2 hour rebuy period sounds a fairly heavyweight game where are you playing ??
Given your bankroll and the tournament structure you have no choice but to play tight.
The key to tournament success is to place survival above chip accumulation. This particulalry the case in your position (one which I am all to familiar with !!) in the rebuy stage where you are playing at a disadvantage to the loose players who will rebuy 4 or 5 times in an attempt to build a stack.
After the rebuy period you will need to move through the gears a bit. With luck the more astute of your opponents will have you down as a rock and you should be able to steal a few pots with aggressive raises.
"The key to tournament success is to place survival above chip accumulation. "
An interesting, debateable and possibly contradictory statement but even more than this, most certainly germane. Please elaborate for discussion purposes.
vince
Vince
To elaborate on the statement "The key to tournament success is to place survival above chip accumulation." On rereading I realise it is a sweeping statement but as general rule of thumb it will probably hold true.
If you look at a poker tournamnet as a process of elimination starting with say 65 players eventually through a few hours play there will be 10 players on the final table who will win something, outside of the final table everyone is a loser. So in order to win anything you need to survive at least to the final table.
Hence the first question you should ask yourself in any situation "Will my action decrease or increase my chances of survival" The answer will vary depending on a whole range of circumstances and is not always a charter for Rocks.
I have no wish to reopen the AA opening hand debate but given an opportunity to double through where you start as a clear favorite making an all in call increases your chances of survival long term albiet at some risk of instant elimination. Okay you may argue that such is the risk of elimination that the sensible action is to fold but whichever side of this argument you come down on the underpin is the concept of survival.
The only reason there was a debate on AA in the 1st hand was because of the prospect of elimination, had the scenario had been that you needed to commit half your stack there would have been no debate.
Applying the philosphy to the original post and the particular circumstances the poster finds herself.
During the rebuy period the greatest threat to her survival will be players who have the ability to rebuy and therefore chase drawing hands. Hence tight aggressive play is the order of the day because in order to survive while she needs to accumulate chips she cannot afford the risk of playing marginal hands because of her inability to rebuy more than once.
Once through the rebuy period her main disadvantage against the other better bankrolled players has passed. At this point the progressive blinds will be more likely to pose a threat,hence the need to move through the gears.
As I said at the outset it is a rule of thumb for playing tournaments and it does help to avoid some of the worst tournament sins like busting out to a big chip leader when you are 3 places off the money and near certain of a seat on the final table because there value in the pot. Fine in cash game just plain dumb in a tournament.
Ross
Ross,
A comment. Your post is extremely important for understanding tournament play. When contemplating "The key to tournament success is to place survival above chip accumulation." one could naturally conclude that survival is a separate element from that of chip accumulation. In explaning your position on the A,A scenario previously discussed in another thread, you touch on a very important point. That accumulating chips is necessary for survival in a tournament and should be taken into considerartion when making a survival decision. However, if the decision is a close one it may be better to opt for surviving rather than acumulating chips. See, now aren't you glad I brought this up. I am. BTW - I also do not believe it is "The key.." just "A key"
vince
Vince I think we agree, I stress survival only because many tournament players (even quite experienced ones) seem to overlook this rather important fact. Survival can ultimately only be achieved through chip accumulation, but the best tournament players do so at the minimum risk to their own chip position.
Ross
"but the best tournament players do so at the minimum risk to their own chip position. "
For sure.
vince
Daisy,
From your post, it sounds like you're just starting out on the tournament trail. Having been there, I would recommend that you get the following books ASAP:
Poker Tournament Tactics for Winners - D.R. Sherer
Poker Tournament Tips from the Pro's - Shane Smith
101 Tournament Hands - D.R. Sherer
The above 3 books will help establish a pretty firm foundation for standard tournament play.
If the NL bug bites you, I believe that you will find Cloutiers Book - Championship No-Limit & Pot Limit Hold 'Em - an invaluable read.
Good Luck!!!
chances are that you may have played far more limit than nolimit--if this is the case, I would stress that it is a different game!!! thus fnal book on prior post would be a must. Jim
Dear Guys
Thank for the help, and any more tips still appreciated. Actually, the only tourneys I've played are NL, so I feel more comfortable with that. FYI, the live tourneys i play in have around 45 players (only a £30 buy-in), blinds go up every half hr, rebuys first 2 hrs and final table of 8 are all in the money, if this helps at all with any strategy thoughts..!
So generally, we reckon v tight play is the way to go until the rebuy period is over?
I heard somewhere that I should loosen up when the blinds get big or I'll get blinded away. What do y'all think about this?
Also, I see a lot of aggressive players doing well - but i guess if u r too aggressive you'll either end up a big stack or out pretty quickly?
Final question - I've found it works quite well in the middle to late stages if I never call preflop, but always come in with a raise. This way i stand a chance of stealing or at least chase out the limpers (only with a decent hand, I add, but not just AA!). Opinions?
Again, all help gratefully received, and thanks!
Daisy.....you're asking the right kinds of questions. The thing I like about the Sherer book (Poker Tactics...)is that all of your questions will be addressed in a way that both makes senses and will make you really think about it.
I believe you will gather much valuable info from his book.
If NL HE is your main game, you MUST read Cloutiers book!!!
GL
Daisy,
To address your questions one by one :
Is very tight play the way to go till the rebuy period is over ? Not necessarily. It depends a great deal on your bankroll and your experience. While still accumulating both, tight is better, but once you become proficient/rich :-) then it is really more important to play well than to restrict yourself to "tight" or "loose"
I should loosen up when the blinds get big ? Essentially yes. Try to make a move before you get so short stacked you can't scare anyone off, and try to be the bettor or the raiser in this situation.
If you are too aggressive you'll either end up a big stack or out quickly ? A lot of the time yes. There is a big difference between playing aggressively and well and playing aggressively but badly, but it is often hard for an inexperienced player to tell ! Just remember there are a _lot_ of aggressive players out there (I'm assuming you play in the UK), you will always see someone at your table raking in loads of chips but remember for every one of him there are three or four people constantly reaching into their pocket for more buy-ins.
Finally, not calling in the later stages - yes, I think this is a good idea. With time you will be able to see the situations where a call is OK but till then I would do exactly as you suggest. I think I played for about a year hardly ever calling after the rebuy stage was over (unless I or someone else was all-in).
You are asking the right questions so I am sure you can do well if you apply yourself.
Good luck,
Andy.
Daisy,
Just spotted your comment about 7 Card Stud in your original post. I would definitely recommend trying it out. I started out playing 7 Card and think it is better for inexperienced players because : the good players have a smaller edge over the weak players (mostly because it is simply easier for the worst hand to draw out in Stud) ; hand values stay more consistent throughout - a decent pair in Stud is often worth going all the way with when you haven't got too many chips whereas the flop changes everything in Hold-Em ; and Stud is simply less counter-intuitive than Hold-Em often is, you can't often go too far wrong by just betting with a strong hand.
Stud isn't spread very commonly though - where do you play ? E-mail me if you like.
Andy.
6 players left. I have a 15 chips, and am probably the shortest stack on the table. 2 off the button with AQo. No one has opened. Blinds are 1-2. How much should I raise?
How about going all-in? That action will discourage callers and you'lll pick up the blinds. Joe
All of em. If your the shortest stack someone will take a stand against you with a weak ace and that's what you want. If you raise just a half it might be impossible for there to be a flop that you don't stick the rest in on anyway. Be aggressive and go with it. 6 handed, it's a good hand.
I'd raise to 6 total. It leaves you 9 to bet the flop, so that you can get them out if they miss. That way, when you get called by KQ, and the flop is all rags, they can let go on the flop and not catch their 6 outs on the turn or river. Also, if they have a small pair, they might let it go once 2 or 3 overcards flop, even if none of them actually hit your AQ.
Plus, this gives you a better shot at doubling through a hand like A-little in the blinds. They'll muck for 15 chips (or should), but might call and try to catch for 6. Then, unless they hit their 3-outer, you're way ahead and will most often win their 6 chips. Maybe they'll get stupid and call your 9 chips on the flop with their 2 overcards, not realizing they only have 1 live overcard.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I raised 8 chips. The bb, a tight player with a reasonable stack (maybe 30 chips), thought about reraising me, but just called. The flop was Ts8s2d, and she bet the flop all in. I decided to call (didn't even have a spade). The blinds were about to increase to 2-4; and, I didn't think I had much chance of surviving with just 7 chips. I was sure she had a medium pocket pair, giving me six outs. She turned over AK.
If I had made it 6 chips, and was raised all in by a tight player, can I fold AQ? I guess I probably should have layed it down on the flop.
PokerPages WSOP warm-up tournament. There were less than 40 players left. The blinds were 50-100. I have T980. I am on the button and pick up QQ. UTG and two others limp. I raised T400. UTG and one player in middle position call. They both have big stacks of around T3500.
Pot is T950. Flop comes 2 3 4 rainbow with one spade. It is checked around to me and I push all in. UTG calls my all in bet of T480. Turn 9s. River 5s. So the board is 2 3 4s 9s 5s.
UTG turns over As 3s and takes it down with the flush. UTG also hit the wheel.
What do you think of UTG's call of my pre-flop raise? Should I have raised all in pre-flop?
What do you think of UTG’s call of my all in bet? The flop gave her a pair of 3s with an Ace kicker and a gutshot straight draw giving her 10 outs (counting the runner runner flush draw as one out). The odds were 3.6:1 against her improving, or about 1.8:1 with two cards to come. The pot was laying her about 3:1.
Do you think it is good to play a draw in this situation? It probably was an ok play on her part given the size of her stack and the overlay.
Pre-flop I think I push it all-in. I like to raise to 3xBB which is 400. But with 3 limpers I would add 200-300. Since that is more than half my stack I would go allin. I like your all-in bet on the flop.
As for the UTG player. I wouldn't play A3s UTG. But she did, so after your raise there is 950 and she needs to add 400. With 2 other limpers it is probably a close call assuming one or both call. On the flop I think her call is close. If she reads you for AK she has you beat. She has a big stack and you can't hurt her anymore. But there is another player who can potentially hurt her.
Ken Poklitar
Given the blinds, your positon & stack size, and the size of the limpers stacks, I totally agree with Ken. The largest impact that you can have is to push allin preflop and put the limpers to the max decision pre. Why give them the chance to see a flop for a call that doesn't severly impact their stack?
Somebody told me the $10,000 main event won't be covered(video taped) by ESPN or anybody else, is this true?
I'm not positve, but I think the Discovery Channel has it. In any case, you won't see it on TV for at least 3 months or so.
I won a paradise Omaha hi/low tourney on the weekend. I was down 7675 to 325 and the blinds were 300-600.
I then doubled up, split 2 pots, doubled up twice, lost the BB and won 3 final hands to win it. Quite a run. I was very fortunate as you can imagine.
Anyone else have any great comebacks? My best blown lead was 6500-1500 in HE.
Ken Poklitar
keep it up! I like the comeback story much better than another bad beat! Jim
I agree with Jim....would be nice to hear upbeat stuff instead of the same old "bad beat" stories that we all have plenty of.....Here's two for the list
Poker Pages....Down to $47 early/mid tourn......allin a number of times.....get a decent(500-600)size stack by mid tournament....make it to 30 players.....time to get agressive.....fortunate in that I make a hand or two....get down to 2 tables &.....the deck hits me right between the eyes.....proceed to eliminate every other player at the 2nd to last table!!....arrive at the last table with over 32K in chips.....the comments in the table chat box when I arrived were priceless!!....oh ya.....I did finish 1st.
World Poker Finals at Foxwoods last November....$5100 NL HE Super Satellite.....$165 buy in.....lots of serious players......manage to hold on thru mid stages by the skin of my teeth.....allin 17 times (friend counted) before I got to final table.......was smallest stack (1900) there....Big stack at the table has about 40% of the chips.....1st place earns the $5100 lammer to the major NL HE event...2nd place $3000 cash...payouts down to 6th place.....I'm figuring that it would be a miracle if I make it to 6th!!......shortly into final table play a few of the medium stacks get into it & before you know it, there are 6 left & I've made the money.....then the poker gods bless me.......I double up and shortly thereafter quadruple up!......down to 4 and I get a monster and put the big stack out.......now I'm flyin!!!!.....movin chips like crazy......a real blur......get it down to 2 and 2 hands later.....I'm the winner!!...WHAT A FEELING!!!
End up finishing 23rd in the big event....got crippled when my ppA's were taken down (by 2nd place finisher) river flush hit mid-tournament, and my pp3 allin got busted (by tournament winner) when his rags made a str8 on the river......
There.........feel MUCH better now,,,,,unlike an hour ago when my AKh UTG alling got busted by another bon bon eating donut chaser on Poker Pages who called with J9s and drew out a flush....LOL
(Just couldn't resist ONE more bad beat story)
Im in a $10 holdem T, with $25 in the smallblind at the 100-200 lvl, I win 5 striaght hands to build back, and go on to win it. That's my best recovery.
NLHE Tourney, live. Blinds up to 100-200. I have a single black chip. Wait all the way around until I am under the gun and see JJ. I get 6 way action and hold on. Now with 700.00 I go to the the final table and take second. (Knocked out by K-Q against my A-K).
WSOP warm up on Pokerpages I was down to 14.00. Thats 14 dollars. I qualified in top 5 places.
Thanks for the chance to tell some good endings.
In a $20 tourney with seven players left I was down to only 60 in chips and came back to take 1st. It was surprisingly straightforward. I had only two lucky double (or triple) up hands and then basically played carefully aggressive poker to get right back on top.
When I had 60 in chips I could not even conver the BB but I survived it and then the SB too.
Here's my comeback story:
I'm playing a NL tourney. Still relatively early in the game with about 120 of 170 entrants playing. I fail to make anything pre or post flop and am slowly sinking away. Lots of raising BTF, so I just hang tight and fold, fold, fold. I have about $250 in chips and the blinds are $10-$20. Well, now there are about 90 players left. Blinds have moved to $20-$40 and I only have $175.
Here's my break. I get pocket rockets (AdAs) in mid position. Two early limpers. I decide to raise all-in. I get two more callers and one early limper calls. Anyways, flop comes two diamonds. Turn another diamond. River the fourth diamond! I then quadruple my stack to $700.
Two hands later I am dealt pocket nines in late position. 3 limpers and I raise to $100. I get two callers. Flop comes A-9-2 all rainbow. One guy bets out $200, I just smooth call. Turn pairs the Ace. He goes all in for about $300 and I call easily. My nines full beats his AQ. Suddenly I have about $1600.
The action for me dies down and I just sit back and let the others whack at each other. Down to about 3 tables now and once again I am short stacked. I had a set beat from a bigger flopped set and fortunately the guy was short-stacked, but it dropped me to about $1000. I have been playing very tight and it was time to make some moves fast and get lucky
I get AsJs on the button and all fold to me. I raise all in and BB calls. BB shows pocket Queens. Flop comes nothing, turn nothing, river the Ace! WHEW! Back up to 2 grand.
Next hand in the SB I get pocket jacks. One early raise, one late caller, I re-raise all-in with $2000. On early raiser calls. board comes all small cards and I win. Early raiser had AK. Now I have $4000.
I make the final table and placed 3rd when my AQ failed to hit and my opponent won with pocket sixes. Oh well..I was happy. I never expected to get that far.
Lawrence Ng
Its the early stages of a ten thousand man, fight to the death, no limit hold em tournament.
I get AA on my first hand on the button. All fold to me and I make a small raise, The BB calls. The flop comes 2/6/j rainbow. BB checks and I move all in. BB calls. Turn is an 8. River is a deuce. I turn my aces over and reach to grab the pot and my opponant says "not so fast, sir" and turns over 2/5 offsuit. I turn as red as a flaming, wing-tailed, rubber grommit!
So unconsciously, but oh so deliberate, I pull out my Ming dynasty fighting ninja sword and remove his Left arm cleanly at the shoulder with one swift blow as he is reaching out to grab my pot. He looks at me in amazement and I say " not so fast sir, no-one Jimmy cracks my corn!"
He walks away mumbling obsenities at me with a look of crazed bewilderment evenly spread accross his face. I'm thinking to myself, this guy has really gotta get a hold of his temper, it's just a game for Christs sake!
Now I've doubled up on my first hand and things are looking good. So I pull up my chair and buckle up for what I know will be a hell of an adventure.
I proceed to hang around but can't seem to catch any cards. I am now down to about my starting stack. Based on a quick look accross the room, I determine that we are down to 7,371 people. I've already beat 2,629 people!
Im pumped!
We have been playin for about 11 hours, 34 minutes and 16 seconds to this point. I cant stand it any more and I run to cool off my lizard.
As I am exiting the bathroom and walking by the shoeshine guy, I notice an odd looking man getting his shoes shined who is covered from head to toe in a blanket, wearing a cowboy hat and only has his eyes showing through. He kinda reminded me of that guy from Fat Albert with the ski cap with eye holes pulled over his face down to his nose.
I do a double take and realize he is staring intently at me. Anyway, secure in my hetorsexuality, I roll my eyes, snicker and walk by.
Before I know it, he yells "no-one Jimmy cracks MY corn!" and swings a 14th century, medievil decapitation device so deftly and perfect, I feel as if I have been thrown back in time 700 years!
I feel a sharp twang and think, Oh no! Not my buckets of Lovin! I reach down and feel that my rucksack is still in tact and breath a sigh of relief. I start to walk off and fall pin perfect square on my nose, immediately transforming me into a Joe Piscapo look-a-like. S@#$! Of all the damn luck.
I start to get up and realize something is missing, but I cant figure out what it is. Then it dawns on me and I think, "where's my F$@%ING Leg?" That rat bastard, cowboy wannabe cut it clean off below the hip as retribution for me beating him fair and square at the table! By the time I realize what happened, he was long gone. What a sore, freakin loser!
I give the shoe shine man a couple of Lincolns to shine my nub(u shoulda seen the looks), then I go ahead and have him tie a turnicut around whats left of my leg as well. I'm getting uptight and impatient because I've been away from the table so long, so I get the shoeshine geek to finish up his handiwork in short order.
Then,I pogo stick as fast as I can back to my seat only to find that I have already lost 1/2 my stack thanks to two orbits in my absence. I look around the room and immediately surmise that we have thankfully lost another 1643 players.
Now we're getting down to manageable numbers! But I need chips. Unfortunately, I'm the swinging cheesecrack at the table and don't have much weight to throw around. Thats ok, Ive been in tougher situations than this before.
I hang around as long as I can and finally decide to take a stand. I smooth-limp-raise (ALL IN ONE MOTION!) with 6,8 offsuit and am called in two places. The flop comes 6/2/10 offsuit. I move all my chips in and stare directly in the face of the player to me left. I mean I AM IN THIS GUYS FACE! I am giving Him that "you dont wanna piece of me" look. Man, I am in a zone I pull out a pound of mind zen shit and begin to spread it evenly accross his whole being. I say "come on man, whats it gonna be, whats u gonna do, come on with it, COME ON!!!" Its then that I know I have him. I stop, lean back and wait for what I know is coming.
To my utter astonishment, he looks at me and says:
"What the hells is your problem, I'm not even in the hand!"
What the hell was I thinking....Flush goes the zen shit! I turn around and get smacked in the face by my lone remaining opponent calling my bet and throwing his pocket aces face up for all the world to see.
I slump in my chair feelin a total sense of desperation, perspiration, depression, one half cup milk, 3/4 of a cup of flour, 1 teaspoon of vanilla, 2 cups of sugar, oh wait, thats a cookie recipe! Where am I?
Oh thats right, back to the hand...
The turn is a J. YIKES!
I'm in deep pucky now! I have to hit a 6 or 8 or my visions of grandeur are over.
I begin to concentrate deeper than I ever have, squeezing every fiber of my mind, body and soul determined to will that final card needed to allow me to live another day.
So, while mustering all the mind over matter control that I have, I must have exerted too much muscle tension because as the dealer was turning the river card, I felt a small methane explosion erupt from my starboard side. Amazingly, at that exact instant, a player had turned away from his table that was behind me to grab a quick cigarette. Apparantly he lite his match at the identical moment of my spontaneous combustion. This created an unbelievable explosion that sent him careening accross the room as well as hundreds and perhaps thousands of my opponants.
Somehow, everyone at my table was unaffected by this sequence of events. Apparantly, the brunt of the explosion was only forced in the direction of my posterior. I can only assume that the deep concentration and muscle tension allowed me to stay in my chair during this incredible episode.
I felt like my world was moving in slow motion and as I gathered my thoughts enough to turn my attention back to the hand, everyone's gaze was set upon the river card that had apparantly been blown from the dealers hand. It was slowly making its way down to the table like a leaf falling from a tree, swinging back and forth, round and round, slowly but still too fast to make out what it was. It finally came to rest and it was beauty to my eyes when I saw the lovely 6 of clubs, making me the nut three card exacta.
I look at my opponent, who had turned various shades of purple and blue, and say:
"Don't mess with the Ninja, Zen, mind warrior"!
As I reach to grab the pot, I realize I have just defeated the infamous chef Wolfgang Puck! Lost in my own world of self admiration, I hardly notice that in his rage, he has cleanly removed one of my eyeballs with his potato peeler and is discussing what a wonderful appetizer it will make for his dog named mushmouth. When I come to my senses, I looked at the table in horror realizing that Puck-head had removed my arm as well and was stacking my pot!
All that was left of my hard earned pot was a lifeless limb pointlessly laying there in the middle of the green felt, poker arena.
I always say that good players should not loose their temper, provoke the fish and act in a professional manner, so in an effort to be true to my words, I grab my arm, tilt my cap and say nice hand sir" and begin to leave the table.
I guees in all the excitement, I had forgotten that I now only had one leg and fell flat on my face once again. As I fell, my torn apendage fell from my grasp and landed a few feet from my reach. As it hit the ground, something caught my eye. I crawled forward inch by inch struggling to maintain my focus. At last! There it was in the palm of my once attached hand!
One lone hundred dollar chip!
Feelin like Excaliber on Sesame Street, I wrestled it from its chains of rigormortis and leaped to my foot, thrusting it in the air. With a grin on my face, I look at my table and say:
"It's all over now! I'm back in business Ladies and Cheese-Sticks!!!!!"
At this point we were down to 3,473 players, but there could have been one million. They knew it, I knew it and it was only a matter of time before the whole would would know that a one-eyed, one-legged, one-armed man with one lone hundred dollar chip not only survived but went on to beat a field of 10,000.
This was by far my greatest come back!
Now top that!
Gee Jeff......
Would U mind sharing some of the medication that U've been taking??
It looks like it's done wonders for you're game! LOL
If I were taking medication at least I would have an excuse. Fortunately (or unfortunely for the reader) I am merely suffering from an overdose of work. The story was a product of no sleep and what was left of my brain at the end of a long day. I'm never quite sure what I will think up next......scarey eh?
....
I just got back from Vegas and played in the Mirage Sunday night NL tournament. I thought of what I think is an interesting topic and would like some other peoples opinion.
I'm not talking about your table image at your local casino or card room, where everybody knows you and you know everybody else. I'm talking about creating a table image where nobody knows anything about you, and you don't know anything about them.
For the first two hours at the Mirage tournament I created the perfect tight-aggressive table image, when I bet, everyone folded (which is what I wanted), because they knew I had the cards. (or they thought I did anyway). But after the first two hours my table broke up and when were all moved to the 5 remaining tables. Now what???
Do I start over and build the same table image which will take some time, even though this table might be broken up soon or new players being moved in?? Or does it even matter what your image is in a tournament.
In a tournament where you're not a local, and even more when you're constantly moving tables, [some] opponents will make quite a quick judgement on your play based on what they see. I think it's more important to make the right plays but be aware of how you appear. Maybe you've folded everything for the last 40 minutes because you haven't seen a card higher than a 9, but they don't know that and may well be thinking you are a rock, which you can use to your advantage, and so on.
Andy.
I used to try to create an image of a very loose and wild player, do some advertising, then start playing more solid. The problem with this is that the ones who notice what you've done, will label you as a "tricky" player and will always be on guard against you.
Now, I always wear a "tournament cap" from another casino and start off playing very solid and try to project the image as a "pro". This has worked much better for me. In fact, I was playing in a satellite this weekend at the WSOP and raised preflop with what I would consider a semibluff. My opponent took a long time to make his decision, then said if it was anybody else, he would call...he folded. (BTW, at the end, he and I ended up chopping with me getting 60% and him getting 40%)
JohnnyD
Personally, I don't try to judge somebody else's table image. I find that it takes away from my concentration of the business at hand.
I will, however, make a mental note of how many chips they bring to the table in relation to an "average chip count". More chips means that I have to be more careful dealing with that person. Simple as that.
Sometimes, other locals at the table may give you a clue as to their style of play. The other day, I had a gentleman come to my table with a big stack of chips. A couple of locals started to sing "The Rock sez... the rock sez... know your role...etc". Needless to say, I pretty much avoided him.
I'd like to know how often other regular tournament players finish in the money. I play in a weekly limit hold'em tourney that consistantly gets between 80-90 players. The final 9 finish in the money and I'm 4 of 14 (1st, 5th, 7th, 8th) in making the final table. The tourney structure makes it somewhat of a crapshhot with the blinds doubling every 20 minutes. A $45 buy-in gets you T600 and there's one optional $45 re-buy for T1000 anytime before the 4th round. Can one hope to do better than 1/4 money finish over the long run with this structure?
blinds pregression is 15-30, 30-60, 50-100, 100-200, 200-400, 400-800, 600-1200, 1000-2000, 1500-3000 (final table is no limit betting).
Are you playing this Thursday? Is so and I am at your table your odds go down considerably :)
I made a post last week with a very similar question and about the same tourney. You can see the post farther down the list.
Yeah I plan on being there tomorrow.
There are inevitably at least a couple of good players at each starting table. Like a ring game, though, it's the fish that count, and there's usually at least a couple of them, too. So if we're at the same table no biggie, just say hi. I'm the overweight mid 30's guy with short brown hair who's constantly shuffling his chips. That should narrow it down to maybe 30 players for ya :-).
The often heard number is double. A great player can finish in the money about twice as often as the average player. So, in your event, the average player finishes in the money about 10-11% of the time, so if you are a great player, you can finish in the money about 21% of the time.
So, 4 for 14 is a helluva start. Expect it to get worse going forward rather than better.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
My record at Foxwoods is 41 inthemoney out of 87 tournies. Mix of no limit and limit holdem.
Jim......U play @ Foxwoods?
Which tournaments do U play?
Mon...Tues...Sat???
We probably know one another.
He is the one in the straitjacket screaming loudly and threatening other players.
Thus the name :)
Ken Poklitar
Not kidding. Wens I came SO CLOSE to punching out this little old lady sitting next to me in the 4-8 game.
I need therapy ;-)
Hmmmmmm............I probably do know you, BUT.....after this last post.....I'm not sure if I want to acknowledge it!!!
LMAO!!!
See U there.
I play in the Mon night, Tuesday night, and Sat morn T's, though haven't been going very often the last few months. When they replacd the carpets I became allergic to something in them and turned bright red. But just Wens night I was down and didnt have any ill affects so I'll start coming to T's again soon.
Havent played many tourney's lately as the L.A. Kings are in the playoffs, and poker and sex are a distant second and third ;-)
However, grabbed a second round event at Poker Pages on sunday and a round one event last night as well as one last week. I am having trouble adjusting game strategy when taking a hit early in the tournament. No bad beat stories or failed play, just curious if MY game plan is optimal, i am starting to doubt it now...
I typically play much looser at the beginning stages and limp with position when i can on some speculative hands that i either flop big or get out with. These arent what are crippling me however, the ppJ is a nightmare, yet again no bad beats..
I find when i take an early hit, i must cut these hands out (say loss of 100 out of the 320 we begin with) and play hands that stand up better on their own, A9s button or better.
What is happening is i am doubling up just as blinds double and not accumulating enough to survive forcing a coin flip situation (sometimes many of them) much earlier than i want them.
Am i unlucky and whining here? I can take it flame away =) or is there something i should be considering that i am missing? What hands in this situation merit a blind defense, when calling will not leave you enough to move someone off a pot?
I know most of this is situational, yet general ideas to consider will be appreciated greatly...
Thanks in advance,
Ray
Andy already had a post playing short-stacked in archives, sorry to waste the space on a repeat question, however ranking Omaha hi-lo same situation, when desperate is a one way hand still worth playing? Say AKKJ one suit, or middle wraps 9TJQ 2 suits? and mediocre garbage A2s 66 playable?
Again, Thanks...
Ray
What is the best tournament strategy book for low-limit holdem tournaments. I am new to tournament play.
Greetins y'all,
I've got a no-limit hand that ended up being the pivotal hand in the tournament I played today. I'm happy to say that the stars were lined up just right and I came out on top :)
The more I think about my play on this hand, the more I'm convinced that I possible made a mistake and got away with it. Here it is though for what it's worth.
Down to 3 players. Blinds are at $500-$1000. I'm currently in the $500 blind. The person in the big blind posts the $1000 and has $1000 left. The button player has $7000 left.
The button moves in for his $7000 after about 10 seconds of thinking. I have never played with this guy before; however, these people really did not grasp the concept of N/L that well. I had won most of the pots in the N/L section of the tournament with strong initial bets and over the top raises (helped along the way by 4 AK hands and 2 AQ hands). He was an intelligent older man who quickly got the idea of what it took to win chips.
I look down and find 10-10 (arg). What a dilemma!!! I've got $10,000 in chips and this is the first hand that anyone has made an aggressive bet at me while I've had a hand. He had moved all in 3 times and I saw his hands all 3 times. One time with 77 he hit a set on the river. One time with AK and the last with KQ suited. So, he'd pretty much move in when he had a decent - premium hand. I looked at him for about 2 minutes and thought. If I called and get beat, I'm crippled and probably get 2nd. If I call and win, I probably win the tournament.
The last guy with the $1000 was just hanging around, dragging every last hand out of his chips. I really didn't get the impression that he would call.
I called and my opponent looked stunned. He turned over AJ offsuit. Yuck, I'm a tiny favorite. The board came with 5 rags and my 10-10 held up.
My question is this: Did I make a boo-boo by calling this guy when he obviously had a strong hand? I really exposed myself to a possible bad situation if one of his six cards gets there.
Comments would help a lot. Thanx all.
Well it depends on the payouts of the tournament. But in general I would muck TT here, unless you think that the button would raise less if he held a true premium hand.
Usually you will want to wait until the short stack is knocked out before you mess around too much with the other large stack. This will assure you at least 2nd place.
Because you still had the third guy in trouble if you lost, it was probably OK to call. But it is close.
If you fold you are still the chip leader against two inexperienced players with one on the verge of extinction. Couple this with the fact that the player that moved in has only played premium hands and folding becomes the better option.
vince
yes
Very interesting :)
As usual it really depends on your read of the player. With 1500 in the pot, a bet of 7000 is certainly an overbet of the pot but not outrageous. A valid bet for him could have been for 3500 which is a raise of 2500.
So the question of course is does this overbet mean something? Quite often it means a lower pair, two overcards or occasionally AA. If he varies his raises based on his cards then you might have a better idea.
If his 3 all-in moves that you mentioned have been done in the past several hands then I call. If those are 3 hands over the past several rounds then I might fold.
Ken Poklitar
I'd muck. Get heads up, and then lay the smackdown on the intelligent older guy. It sounds like you had a nice read on the guy. Anyway, the call is still ok, play to win, thats how I play.
danny boy :o)
I have some vague ideas about this but would welcome any fresh input. When you are down to the last 4 in no-limit or pot-limit Hold-Em, normal payout structure something like 45-25-15-10, stacks roughly equal and your stack around average, how aggressively do you play ?
OK you will be doing your share of raising, but how often do you play back at someone ? Bluff or semi-bluff re-raises, or respect the first person to enter the pot ?
As usual it depends on everything in the world but what kind of things are you thinking about when defining your strategy ? I choose 4-handed because personally I get pretty busy 3-handed and tend to be more patient with 5, but 4 I can't decide.
Sorry this is a bit vague,
Andy.
i prefer to wait for something decent such as top pair postflop or a reasonable ace such as AT/AJ or 7s upwards preflop b4 reraising
having said that i'm pretty clueless - just thought it could get the ball rolling as it's quite an interesting topic
I don't think you can genericize this answer very much. It just depends too much upon the 3 opponents.
I've been up against 3 players who will let me bowl them over and steal their blinds every other hand. I've been up against 3 players who will play back at me with nothing. Usually, of course, there is some variety in the 3, and they are each different. I think you simply need to judge who will back off and who will charge back at you if you raise, what cards they'll do it with, what cards you have, and go from there.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Four handed with equal stacks? You've got to play. I don't sit on my ass in this situation. I will definately try to find the weak link and hammer him. Getting a read on the 3 is very critical in this situation. I like to probe and trap in these situations, varying my raises, and sometimes flat calling. Just thinking about this table is getting me excited!! lol I wish I was playing 4 handed equal stacked right now!!!
that is all, danny boy :o)
This was a key hand I observed in last night's NL HE tourney at Foxwoods. There are 4 players left, and prizes are paid out in percentages of 34, 24, 14, and 8. The chip counts of the players are approximately: SB - 14K BB - 5K UTG - 7K Button - 19K
Blinds are 400, 800 with a 75 ante. UTG folds. Button makes it 2500 to go. SB pretty quickly makes it 6000 to go. BB folds. Button goes into think mode. After a little while, Button calls. Flop is Kd4c5c. SB quickly bets out 5000. Button quickly raises all-in. SB quickly but unhappily calls and shows JJ. Turn is Th, river 9c. Button shows 7c6c and wins with flush to knock out the SB and take a huge chip lead. SB says the preflop call was awful, while BB and UTG say it was a good or at least reasonable play.
What do you think?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I don't like the pre flop call for two reasons. The button was the chip leader and there is no reason to try to tangle up with the second place chip leader when there are smaller chip stacks to attack. And secondly isn't 7c6c a drawing hand? Why would you want to play heads up with a hand like that?
Let me know how far off base I am.
Well, Nic is right, and I was the button. I thought for a while after SB raised, and stared him down. As I did so, I sensed him getting nervous, which made me think he didn't have a premium hand. Of course, I was pretty wrong about that. I now think he was getting nervous because he thought I was Hollywooding with an overpair.
In any event, I felt I could almost certainly make the correct decision about how to play the hand postflop, so the call seemed pretty good at that point. When he bet the flop, I gave him credit for at least a pair of Ks. However, with that flop, I'm a favorite over anything but a set (and AcKc), and I'm not far behind that hand. So, I put it all in.
He was rather upset, and told me he lost a lot of respect for me. In fact, this guy is usually very cool, and I've seen him lose big pots to worse hands and not visibly react. I think the fact that it was me playing 76 that shocked him so much. If I had turned over AcKc, he'd have just shaken his head a little at losing a coin-toss, and left it at that. I wanted some feedback so I can discuss this with him next week, if he wishes.
It may be that my play was wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was either slightly right or slightly wrong, and not far off in either direction. If I hadn't misread him as being weak, I'd have mucked it. However, my misread made me think he had a medium/small pair, or a decent A (but not AK). As such, most flops would be bad for his hand, and I thought there was a significant chance he would check-and-fold after I called.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
A nice steal gone bad gone great!
Another Tuesday another win for Greg :)
Ken Poklitar
You cannot be serious. This guy knows you. He is not going to reraise you without a big pair. Oops he reraised with Jacks. Well Jacks are a big pair short handed. He may have made a mistake by going up against your big stack but you made a mistake or two yourself. What in the hell are you doing reading so definitiely when going against a big stack given that there are two short stacks around. No wonder he lost respect for you. BTW - where's my 5%
vince
n/t
I think he made 2 small mistakes.
First mistake, not raising enough preflop. Seeing as how I'm the chip leader and the button, it should come as no shock that I raised. I might have raised with any 2 cards, since my steal equity is pretty high here. So, he doesn't have to give me credit for any real hand, and he definitely shouldn't just fold his JJ. However, he also doesn't want me to take a flop with him, not with 3 potential overcards in my hand. Since there is no way he can read me, he's guessing on the flop, and doesn't want to do that. A standard raise by him would be about T7500, but since that's over half his stack, he should have just raised all-in. I definitely would've folded. Heck, I would have folded for T7500.
Second mistake, very minor. If he's going to call my raise on the flop, then just bet all-in on the flop. His bet isn't terrible. It's 1 overcard that I don't need to have in my hand, and he can't afford to give me a free card to hit an A or Q, nor can he afford to guess whether I'm bluffing or not if he checks the flop and I bet it. I would have bet all-in in his shoes.
When he asked me how I could call, I said he didn't raise enough preflop. He replied that he thought it was enough to make me fold any hands that were just stealing hands. He was close. If he had raised a bit more, I would have been getting total odds/implied odds of 4:1 or less rather than 5:1, and I would have folded.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
Why was 5 to 1 your magic number to call in this scenario?
Jon I.
Because I'm about a 4:1 dog against an overpair.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I don't think he should fold either but a fold is a better play than the weak raise he made. He is in a dificult situation. He is playing against the only guy that can knock him out. He is very close to the big money. If he bet's half his stack he is pot committed so I say go for it and raise all in or fold. Folding believe it or not is not the worse play. A weak reraise just may be! A call is better than a weak reraise. That way he may get the BB to call and you both can shoot at him.
Vince.
Seems like the SB has 4 options preflop.
Fold. This seems like a weak play to me although there may be a situation where it makes sense based on stack sizes. This seems to me like you are conceding 1st to the big stack and you are just going for 2nd.
Call. This also seems weak since more likely then not the button is stealing. You would be giving a hand like KT to catch an overcard.
Raise 1/2 of his stack, which would have probably been enough to push the button off his hand.
Raise all-in, which would also have worked.
So in this case the SB raise of 6000 was not quite 1/2. I think it is a close decision on how much to raise. I might go all-in or just raise to 7000.
On the flop, I am not sure why the SB bet most but not all of his chips. The only way I bet less then all-in on the flop is if I plan to muck if the button goes all-in. So a bet of 4000 would leave me with 4000 if the button went all-in and I folded.
Ken Poklitar
"Lost Respect"? That's a bunch of crap. You don't lose respect because another player makes a bad play "in your opinion." If you lose a hand to a player who incorrectly called, so be it. You're hoping for incorrect calls all the time, and once in a while, the bad caller gets lucky. A player has no "right" to expect other players to play "by the book." His play was also flawed, IMHO.
And if he does respect you as a top player, he must understand that you are unpredictable and will make plays. Any rock can wait for Aces and Kings, good players do more than that. And sometimes those pay off and you get lucky, and sometimes you're out. This "I lost respect" bad beat mantra is just as stupid and meaningless as "Change the Deck." It's just emotionalism, a good player's biggest enemy. He should laugh, shake his head, shake your hand, and say "nice play." But instead, he's on tilt for you now, which is not necessarily a bad thing either.
Next time you re-raise him, he won't know what day it is. This applies to everyone else at the table as well to an extent.
Keep them guessing - guessers are losers !
Andy.
Here's my take:
The first 2 raises are fine, IMO, except maybe I would have raised all-in with JJ since a bigger raise would have meant more than half of my stack. With JJ, you just don't want to give a hand like AK a chance to take it away from you. That said, maybe just raising to 6000 and betting in the dark on the flop could have been a valid option. It also gives you an opportunity to fold preflop if the button moves-in plus you retain the second chip position. I think he should have bet all-in on the flop tho, since he was going to call if he got raised.
Back to the button. When he gets reraised, there is T9600 in the pot. He has to call T3500. So he is getting 2.7:1 on his call alone and 5:1 in implied odds. Even if he is dominated against a hand like A7 or A6, he has to call (it's close for just the pot odds). The only hands he is not getting sufficient pot odds to call are pocket pairs from 77 to AA. But with the implied odds, he has more than enough. The key was determinating if he had a pair. Obviously, he had a pair, but I'm guessing that the range of hands the SB could have made it a profitable call.
If he makes it, he is (almost) assured a win. If he doesn't he can fold on the flop and be in second place. If he goes all the way and looses, he is a toss up for second place.
I think the button's play was fine. I think the SB should have moved in preflop or on the flop with a tendency preflop.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
BTW: Greg, you were the button, right ?
Nic makes a good case. If the button has a read that the SB does not have a pair (an incorrect read, can't win them all though) he could even consider a re-raise if he thinks SB might fold.
The point is that if you are _not_ against an overpair then suited connectors, however low (almost the lower the better) are 40% against a hand like AK. It's a great hand to take a shot at someone with because you have an excellent change of sucking out if called.
In addition, if the button feels he can outplay the SB on the flop by correctly deducing when he has missed and will fold, that's more in favour of a call.
I still might not make the call but it's by no means awful. The SB might do better to consider whether he should have re-raised all in rather than criticising his opponent's play.
Andy.
"The SB might do better to consider whether he should have re-raised all in rather than criticising his opponent's play."
A fold is a better play. Sometimes you must give your opponents the opportunity to make mistakes. In this case by raisng the sb virtually shuts out the BB and faces the possibility of heavy chip loss against the one guy that can really hurt him. I don't like the play of this hand at all except for Fossilmans all in move on the flop.
vince
Sorry Vince (and others), there is no way I fold JJ in the SB to a button raiser who understands position (and I think Greg understands position). A re-raise is the only play.
Quite frankly if I am in either blind with, say, 7h6h I would be tempted to re-raise. When you add up the equity of your opponent folding, and him playing back and you winning, it looks good. You can't get knocked out (if the button had more chips than me I probably wouldn't do it). Your target is a good player - good enough to raise with lots of hands and good enough to put a lot of them down to the re-raise. And the payout structure favours it. You already have 8. Stepping up to third gets you 6 more. But second is 16 and first 26, plus if you make the last two you can, if you like, arrange a split and bag about 20.
Might be worth it as well just to see everyone's face when we both turn over 76s (or similar). Would have been a bad beat for me in the end though :-)
Andy.
i think with the chip position that the button has, this is the best way to play this hand. if he can pick up the blinds everytime he is the button the 1500 in chips will increase his chip lead. i would play this hand the same way, esp when you pick out the 15 outs he hit on the flop, there is just no way to get away from this hand. even if he loses it, he still has 4k to work with.
So pre-flop there is 9600 in the pot. He needs to add another 3500. He is probably getting close to the correct odds to call the bet. If he calls the bet and folds on the flop, he still has a good hold on 2nd place with 13k.
So I agree that it is a close call on the buttons part. I am not sure if I make the call but I don't think it is a terrible call. Not sure if it makes sense to battle the 2nd biggest stack with low suited connectors.
Quite the flop for 7c6c.
Ken Poklitar
I would have played differently in both positions. I think the J-J should fold to the button's raise, why get tangled with the big stack, as second biggest stack, out of position and very likely in a 50-50 situation (without some read, I would have to assume the raiser probably has overcards). The idea here is to knock out the two small stacks and then go heads up, not take the button on here. So just wait for the button and do the same to the small stacks.
And when J-J did re-raise, I fold my 7-6 suited. Heads up it is just a terrible hand, regardless of pot odds. Even if you hit a flop, it's going to be a drawing flop, and even after that, you'll only have so many outs, or be in the lead with the re-raiser drawing to good outs. But the real question is why take on the other big stack? If the button loses this hand, he'll kick himself all the way out of the casino for being so stupid to make that pre-flop call. Winning it was just lucky, and just lucky is not a place I want to be with 4 players left, up against the 2nd biggest stack.
Once the flop comes, the players fates are sealed by the outcome of the draw.
And of course the other two players thought the play was reasonable ... it was like Christmas for them.
The button played bad. Got lucky! Raising all in on the flop was his only correct play.
Vince
What? You think the original raise to steal the blinds/antes a mistake? You're on the button with the chip lead, and they're trying to edge up the ladder. Any 2 cards will do for the first raise as long as you think they'll fold often enough.
The rest is very marginal, maybe wrong, I admit. However, I feel that if my preflop call was a mistake, it wasn't a big one.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well let's see.
You make it $2500. there is $1700 in the pot when you raise. So after your raise there is $4200 in the pot. The BB has 5K is in dire need of chips. He Looks and sees that he if he calls just $1700 there is a chance to double and maybe triple up. So what do you think he's thinking. It sure wouldn't take much for me to call. Now how do you like his call when you hav a 7,6? Don't try and tell me that you thought that a $2500 bet in this situation was a good steal bet. I don't think so. Of course you are the master and I the student so I humbly bow to your wisdom o ancient one.
vince
It's not that you're wrong, but you don't know who was in the BB, and I do. He was going to fold anything but a very good hand. He is the type to crawl up the payscale, and would wait patiently for somebody else to go broke, or for his stack to get down to 3K or less before he makes a move.
Also, my raise to T2500, or half is stack, is almost the same thing as raising his whole stack. Any hand he plays for half his stack he pretty much has to commit all his stack. Interestingly enough, his best play, if not folding, is to just call if he has a good hand (but less than AA or KK, in which case he should jam all-in preflop) and to then bet all flops and hope I fold. Of course, if I catch air with 76s, I will fold. So, the most common scenarios for me are to win the blinds/antes, lose T2500, win T5000 plus the blinds/antes.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
All great responses. However, I have to agree with Vince on this one. This is the final table of a tournament. If it was mid stage I think I would have played similarly. But, since I am a big stack and the SB is a big stack I would have given up the steal and waited for a better chance. The SB can't be on a re-steal given the circumstances.
Post flop I think you played it perfectly.
Paul
Small blind has three choices...fold...call...raise. I would never fold in this situation. I might call rather than risking more and see what the flop brings. If I raise, I go all in. You're not trying to build a pot here if you raise, you're trying to win it out right. The button has to call a raise of that size.
JohnnyD
Johnny's post made me think..
What if the SB had just called the initial raise, then had gone all-in on the flop? How would you respond to that play as the button?
CHiP
Greg went in on the flop because he had a gazillion outs (yes, that's a specific term of art ... gazillion) and was the chip leader and would still have enough after to put up a fight, even if he lost. So I think once the flop came as it did, he'd call. I mean, this is about as good a flop he could hope for, if he won't call this flop, why would he call the pre-flop raise?
I would've reluctantly called. I've flopped a straight flush draw, 15 outs. He pretty much needs a set to be the favorite, and with the dead money, I can even (almost) call that. Plus, he wouldn't call preflop and then go all-in with a set, he'd have bet half the pot or the like, so I'd know I'm a favorite if he had gone all-in (of course, that's knowledge that is particular to this opponent).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well, I just breezed through the gazillion responses, but here's what I think FWIW (For What It's Worth, that's going to be my new stupid anagram):
You're preflop raise is exactly what I would have done, and I feel that nobody could make a strong arguement otherwise.
I don't think I would have necessarily put the SB on a huge pair... but I don't know the player. I'm assuming he's skilled, so I would have thought him to be on a resteal with something like A-x. Only your read at the time can answer that issue, of course. For that reason, I would have folded to a larger raise, and considered reraising him all-in for the amount he ended up raising me. I know this sounds goofy, but that's what I would've done if that's my read. Also, I would have been wrong after all.
I can't imagine folding preflop, so I think you again are correct for that amount.
After the flop, it's simply one of those classic decisions of whether or not you want to gamble for a big pot at that stage. Period. Whether I would put him on a King, or stay with my 'resteal and fire away' read, or just accept the fact that I didn't know what the hell was going on doesn't matter so much. If you hit, YAY, if you miss, BOO. Overall, though, I'm pretty sure I lay it down to his bet on the flop. But I think it's excessive to fault your play here.
It's a great hand. Nice, aggressive, fearless play. That's how you win tournaments. If you want to say you did it because of the implied odds, fine. But the real beauty of the play is in it's relationship with the flow of the game and your unrelenting use of a big stack. Thanks for good food for thought.
CH
"Your preflop raise"
I realize that you ARE not a preflop raise, though that does stimulate some interesting reincarnation concepts. Can I return in my next life as a preflop raise? That's true Nirvana!
That's why they are even in the final 4. Going to WAR with the other big stack with a suited low connector, and betting the farm on a low 4-flush/openender.....hmmm.
I guess once he saw the flop he wanted to gamble to hit one of the draws, but preflop this was NUTS, do I know this moron? I can see making it $800 or $1200, but $2500 to go, with 67suited...what a maroon. OK, it's a blind steal attempt, well the blind BIT BACK so release.
This is a super trap on the 67, he hit the flop hard but only for a draw, he's behind, he's at war with the one stack that can actually kill his win chances, it's gambling not poker.
Of course we see this ALOT, people flopping 4 flushes and thinking its the same as 4 Aces. In the long run they die a horrible death.
Good news....I went Wens night, played some 4-8 and DID NOT turn bright red!!!!! Guess the carpet finally outgassed whatever was getting to me. Hopefully Ill see you one of these days.
Jim wrote: "I can see making it $800 or $1200, but $2500 to go ... what a maroon."
The big blind was 800 Jim, I had to make it at least 1600 to go, or I was just calling.
;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
HEHE I know, I was just busting your balls. As Vince said....a blatent blind steal gone bad gone good.
Rule number 5 of poker....Better to be lucky than good!
BTW, in the 4-8 game Wens, we had two old ladies in it that were LIVING PARADISE players. Every hand, to the river with any piece OR any "feeling" of a piece. I did OK but they both tagged Craig SO MANY times he almost punched one of them out.
I long for the days of the good 3-6 game where most people knew what they were doing but I was better than them. Now the games there in low limit are rocks and blithering idiots that make it almost as hard as paradise to actually win consistently. Poker there seems to have degraded quite a bit, even the 5-10 and 10-20 games looked boring and unproductive.
"This is a super trap on the 67, he hit the flop hard but only for a draw, he's behind, he's at war with the one stack that can actually kill his win chances, it's gambling not poker."
Is he behind? He has by my count 15 outs. Does being a favorite to complete his hand mean he is behind? Certainly he must make his hand but he wins more often than loses when he goes to the river. But the fact is thah against a pair he is behind for the moment. So does his all in bet on the flop make sense? I think so but I like it better if there is some chance his opponent will fold. I don't see the Jacks folding to this bet in this situation. But that's poker and tournament poker at that.
vince
Vince, I'm a firm believer in the concept that a draw with "OUTS" against a made hand is....BEHIND ;-)
Sure, he had legs, he had big draws, but he had to hit, and the JJ had WAY more Anti-Outs than Greg had Outs.
I see so many people go to war with openenders and 4 flushes these days, especially in the pokerpages and pokerspot-freerolls, that I'm beginning to think the order of hands of poker have changed...4 flush beats a pair, right? ;-)
In this situation with that flop I will take 76s. It wins about 56% of the time against JJ.
Ken Poklitar
Greg,
I think your opponents raise was too small. If I would raise in this situation, I would go all-in. The reason why? It's mathematically unlikely that we both have pairs, plus I want to let you know that you are a 3.5 to 1 dog. Knowing how you think about payout percentages you would have had to fold.
Another play would be just to call your raise, and then bet the flop. This way he would have not committed himself. But, this is not as good as the first, because it would just about guarantee him only second place.
I'll read the rest of these responses when I get back from the WSOP with my $2,000,000 that is due. See ya!
After pondering this scenario, I've decided I don't like your preflop raise, or call of subsequent reraise. However your play after the flop was excellent. When this guy thinks about the hand, he will regain his respect for you! lol He was just steamed a bit.
BTW, I'm all in preflop to your raise w/pocket JJ's :o)
danny boy :o)
Whilst having no intention of depositing any money in PokerSpot, I would not be averse to withdrawing some. With this in mind I plan to enter the freeroll PLO/8 and limit/no limit hold'em events. Can someone give me an idea of roughly how long they last, general standard of play, any names to be wary of?
Thanks.
Regards,
Richard
They last approximately 3 or 4 hours dependant on your proximity to the final table of course. The standard of play is on average a lot worse than that of the pokerpages freerolls,even though i suspect the main body of players are the same. It seems that most have no idea whatsoever about the game which can lead to some very entertaining,amusing,frustrating showdowns. Good luck and dont expect to be thrilled by the standard of play.
Do you have a tournament schedule?
The site says only in April.
Thanks
On their website. But Dave is right; most of the players have no clue. Calling a pre flop reraise with QJ77, KK75, and T532 in PLO/8 is the most extreme example I can remember. Of course the big blind had aces with suits and a deuce, as I was sure he did (well, to be totally honest, I knew he had aces with suits or aces with a deuce) and scooped. Also, with a stack of $320 and blinds of $5/$10, you can be out very quickly very easily---I made it to the $20/$40 blind level and finished 90th of 200, for about half an hour of play.
Regards,
Richard
Ray,
In response to a question from daisy as to basic tournament advice you wrote:
"in general you should tend to play like it was a cash game until near the money payouts and then deviate in such a way you feel it helps you get into the money position that your chips warrant. this is assuming you play a tight game, if not all is lost anyway."
If the tournament is no-limit, do I take you to mean that you should play like it is a no-limit cash game?
Thanks,
Jon I.
Thanks to everyone who responded (especially Andy for being specific) - thought you might like to know that your advice must have helped, as I went to my 3rd ever live tourney tonite and came in 7th (and in the money)! And this despite hardly catching any cards all night. So thanks guys!
PS Tho i did go out on trip kings, sulk... lol
I am using the following as a strategy when short stacked.
Definition: I consider myself shortstacked whenever the blinds equate to 20% of my stack e.g. blinds 100-200 minimum stack = 1500. Action: 1. No calls either fold or raise (unless checking trash in the blinds) 2. Look for a hand with which to make a stand in the next 2 rounds. This means relaxing position and starting hand requirements, not chasing pots with absolute rags. 3. Raise aggresively preflop 4. Post flop only fold if behind and are drawing to less than 6 outs. 5. Continue until either a) stack position has recovered or b) eliminated from the tournament
The only time I deviate from this practice is if I am virtually in the money and there are players in a worse position than me.
I know this is crude but I find it is easy to apply at the table and it stops me drifting into really precarious positions, which would result in me making a desperate stand with a real trash hand.
Comments /suggestions for (simple) refinements would be appreciated or am I completely wrong?
FWIW, I think your system is a very bad idea... and I mean that in the nicest possible way. Here's why: true the overall strategy you describe is solid, but it is SUICIDE to play formulaic poker in a tournament.
Instead, I think you should try this plan: ask yourself the question "what is the best way to play this particular hand in this particular circumstance?"
consider your stack size, tells, flow of the game, opponents' stack sizes, payout, etc. The "correct" play cannot be predicted until the hand has been dealt, the players if front of you have acted, and you've observed the players behind you.
CH
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think your reply was the least bit informative. You advise against playing "formulaic" poker, but this is impossible. All poker players, from the worst to the very best, have a formula that they follow. The difference is that the better poker players consider many more variables and randomize their play (but the randomizations still follow a formula).
You instructed the original poster to consider more variables, but you haven't told him HOW, which is what he needs.
In response to the original poster, I would say that I also play much more aggressively and loosely when short stacked, EXCEPT when I have a good hand. If I'm dealt aces and I only have four bets left, I'll limp, because the most important thing is to maximize my profit from the aces, which means have as many people in the pot as I can. I'd rather have a 30% chance of a x4 payoff than a 70% chance of a x2 payoff because you need to increase your stack by a lot, even at the cost of taking longer odds.
Well, boredatheist (I like the name), I guess that was spirited enough for 1 am. Sorry if my post was uninformative and unhelpful... I should restate my point:
I do not intend to give Ross a specific tournament lesson (nor should he necessarily want one from me), I am simply suggesting that his strategy will not win him any tournaments from a short stack because it is too rigid to take advantage of all the potential opportunities to increase his stack which may not fit into his plan. It's impossible to propose a better general strategy, because that would suck too. I could offer specific examples of how I, or others, have built a small stack and won a tournament if anyone is interested. The best place to start is to read Andy Glazer's account of John Duthie's win at the Pokermillion.
Also, FWIW, I disagree with the way to propose playing pocket Aces with a short stack late in a tournament. There are many ways to play pocket Aces, but only one way to play them in this circumstance. Get all the money in preflop take a sip of your beer. Your preflop raise will get less respect than an all-in bet on the flop, and you have the best of it. No successful tournament player will disagree with me on this one... I swear to God.
Being an atheist myself I got a kick out of your "I swear to God". Nice touch.
I'm not sure if I agree that we all have formulas because in poker every hand is different and having formulas probably doesn't work in the long run because you so often have to deviate from a specific formula depending on the situation.
Late in a tournament in a short stack situation I know that I need to "double through" two or three times to get myself back into the action. I believe that this is best accomplished heads up. No matter which hand I choose to play I want to get all my chips in before the flop and hopefully play it against only one other person. At this stage in the tournament there are enough large stacks that you will probably get at least one caller.
As for trying to get as many people to call when you have AA, I think this is a bad play no matter what the situation. You don't want to play this hand against 4 or 5 other people so whether it's tournament or live play I believe narrowing the field with this hand is imperative.
At least that's the way I see it.
if it is one of those wild stages of trnmnt, with lots of players seeing flop (not real often event) , then I agree about eliminating players--but, more commonly, there will not be many seeing the flop anyway, in which case I agree with thought of trying to make more, just small raise before flop small again if no flsh or strt draw, etc. chances are if you just dbl your stack it's still short--go for 3x, or 4x!!! Jim
Hmmm. I'd rather play it heads-up or maximum three-handed, and if I just take the blinds then so be it.
If you want to play Aces like this (particularly at this stage of the tournament) then my advice is don't whinge about it when someone draws out on you.
Andy.
The last time I limped with AA UTG was 5 handed on one of the paradise limit tournies. I decided to be cute and limp. Well it wasn't very fun when the SB flopped two pair and I lost my whole stack.
So yeah I agree with Andy.
Ken Poklitar
In general I agree with those who think it's better to raise and take a higher percentage shot at doubling than a lower percentage shot at quadrupling. In a tourny it's all about survival. However, if you are so short stacked that if you double you will still be the shortest stack AND you are are close to the money such that a 4x win would give you a larger stack than the number of other players needed to beat to make the money, limp and let in as many as want to come. Obviously if someone raises after you take the cuffs off and ram and jam. If you do limp and there are lots of players, bet agressively post flop unless you flop a set. Clear as mud?
>> The best place to start is to read Andy Glazer's account of John Duthie's win at the Pokermillion.
Where can we find that? Thanks!
Jonesy, I wish I could just give you the specific site, but I don't remember it. It's something like "casino.poker.com" or "gambling.poker.com". How I found it was this: Go to poker links at pokerpages.com and click on "Dan's poker page". Look around there and you'll find a link to Glazer's articles. His account of Duthie's win at the pokermillion is truly amazing. It was a brilliant example of unconventional poker and Duthie's utilization of the "other variables" in his decision making. good luck
ch
I found it, thank you. The link to the cardplayer article is:
http://www.cardplayer.com/newcp/articles/122200/glazer.html
We have a link to the Glazer site. Go to our favorite links and look for poker.casino.com.
Here's the article, the other link I posted was a different one. They're both excellent!
http://poker.casino.com/article.pl/aid=the_poker_miion_championship_day_four_darling_if_you_are_listening_i_did_win
Like Craig said, don't be too rigid with this formula. As far as simple formulas go, it is a good one, but there are exeptions out there that you need to be looking for.
For example, if a few people limp in before me, and a raise behind isn't very likely, then I am going to limp in with a small pair if it will cost me less than 20% of my stack. Similarly, while I don't like to limp with AA, I might if it's folded to me in the small blind, rather than raise the big blind out. It is pretty unlikely that he will flop 2-pair or better, but he will flop a pair about 1/3 of the time, at which point you might be able to trap him and double up.
Other exeptions will present themselves to you regularly, just think about who's in, what they likely have, how they'll likely play it, who's behind, what they are likely to do, and then decide if you can deviate from your formula correctly.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks, couple of points I would like to make.
I agree robotic play is seldom a winning proposition what I am trying to achieve is a framework to which to apply judgement to any given hand in a particular tournament situation. In choosing my hands many of the factors discussed will come into play,but the focus at this point is to take the iniative to rebuild my stack.
One of the key planks of the strategy is aggression the time for clever plays has passed the priority here is to win and the best chance of winning is to get heads up. I really do not want multiway pots at this juncture.
There is no way I would slow play AA, unless I was in the blinds where I am already heads up but I would be praying for some action pre flop.
Again thanks for the reponses I found them helpful.
A recent post described Kevin Song as a "Jedi Knight", and I just happened to catch the First (most recent) Star Wars movie on Satellite, and one particular scene was somewhat inspiring...
Liam Neeson (Qui Gon?) was fighting the ugly bad dude and they suddenly became separtated by some kind of electromagnetic forcefield. The ugly bad dude started pacing, with his saber drawn, making menacing faces at Qui Gon. Qui Gon turned his saber off, knelt down, and closed his eyes as he took a deep breath. Then, as soon as the forcefield went down, he quickly stood up and attacked ugly bad dude with a flury of deliberate aggression. He, of course, was killed shortly after... but this, like most other things I experience, reminded me of a poker tournament.
Qui Gon was the patient master... waiting calmly for the appropriate time to attack, and then unleashing with relentless, purposeful pot-sized raises. Ugly bad dude was the guy I always get drawn-out on with 4 players left when I'm feeling like Qui Gon and I get all my chips in with AKs against A-4 off. Qui Gon's unexpected death was the unsuited 4 on the river of a board full of babies.
Just thought I'd share this movie moment.
That's the only bit of the entire film that I thought was any good. Unfortunately it is a total rip-off of Bruce Lee but there you go.
Andy.
I was in a PokerPages NL tournament tonight.
I was dealt 7-9 offsuit in the BB early in the tournament. 5 players limp to me and SB and BB check. The blinds are 5-10.
Flop comes 4-7-9 with two clubs. SB checks and I bet all-in which is about $479. UTG cold calls. I know I am beat because he must have a set. Sure enough, turn and river comes no seven or nine and he shows pocket fours and takes it down. I have about 66 in chips left and am outed very soon.
Tell me, did I overplay my top two pair on the flop? I didn't want someone chasing the flush or straight for cheap.
What if I just bet a smaller amount? I am sure UTG would have gone all-in himself? Do I lay down top-two pair?
Thanks ahead of time...
Lawrence Ng
This happens frequently. You get to see an occasional hand with garbage in the blind, and then you "kinda" hit the flop. The only way you really hit the flop is with a full house or top straight with no flush draw. Those are nice trap hands. But top two pair against a limping field is nothing but trouble. I would usually make either a small bet at the pot, to give everyone a chance a to fold, or check-raise someone trying to do the same thing. A set with a big field will often check the flop here or make a big bet like you did to try to get the draws out, so that's when you put on the brakes. No heroics with this type of hand. All-in is a no-win proposition.
CH
Craig,
Thanks for the reply.
Are you saying that I check-raise a field of players with a straight and flush draw on the board? What if no one bets?
Ok, let's assume that I do check the flop. Now UTG is going to bet for sure? What do I do? I just call??? What if he goes all-in? Do I muck top-two pair?
Thanks again!
Lawrence Ng
Betting 400-odd into a pot of 50 is suicide. You'll only get called by a monster.
OK you can get away with it in Pokerpages because some fool will call you with a draw or something but this is a _very_ bad habit to pick up.
Bet around the pot and do the best you can on subsequent rounds. Whatever happens, you'll learn more, which is what these free comps are all about right ?
Andy.
What I'm saying is either fire a small bet in and then tread cautiously if called or raised OR, if the flow of the game permits it, check-raise an aggressive opponent behind you and take the pot from a drawing hand by ruining the pot odds. Being the initial aggressor here with a huge bet will only either win you the blinds or cost you your whole stack.
ch
the key here is in the last sentence of Craig's last post--- that tells it all. but apart from playing it better, seems to me a flop of ANY two pair wins more often than not--you just had bad luck. Jim
With very few exceptions, don't bet 10x the pot. You win a small pot, or lose a big one, because only a monster hand can call you.
With that said, pokerpages and real life are completely different, and a play that would be awful in a real tourney can be clearly correct at pokerpages. For example, you said what if you bet a lesser amount, and then UTG raised? You asked if you should fold. Probably not, unless you know the nick. It would be rare for me to fold 2-pair on pokerpages, especially early, as there are so many maniacs out there who just want to jam it up with anything. I've seen guys go all-in on a flop like this with QJo overcards and no draws. So, calling with 2-pair isn't going to be much of a mistake, whereas against a real world player, it often will be.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Yeah I would say you overbet by a huge amount. It is the classic bet that if it is called you are almost doomed. The pot has 70 or so in it. I would bet the pot. Now depending on how 44 plays his hand you may or may not be able to get out alive.
So if he re-raises you all-in you need to decide if he has the nut-flush draw maybe with one pair or if he has a set.
In pokerpages it might be tough to let it go but in a live tourney I would probably lay it down.
Ken Poklitar
It was brought to my attention that there were many types of errors in my original post. So to reduce the displeasure of all of those who decide to read my demented tale, I have corrected as many errors that I was able to identify.
As far as the state of mind and the grey-matter from which the story was born...I can do nothing about that, as I am cursed or blessed (depending upon your point of view) with a random sense of humor that perhaps only few can appreciate.
Anyway, for those who want to forge on, here she blows:
Its the early stages of a ten thousand man, fight to the death, no limit holdem tournament.
I get AA on my first hand on the button. All fold to me and I make a small raise, The BB calls.
The flop comes 2/6/j rainbow. BB checks and I move all in. BB calls.
Turn is an 8.
River is a deuce.
I turn my aces over and reach to grab the pot and my opponent says "not so fast, sir" and turns over 2/5 offsuit. I turn as red as a flaming, wing-tailed, rubber grommit!
So, unconsciously, but oh so deliberately, I pull out my Ming-dynasty, fighting ninja sword and with one swift blow, remove his left arm cleanly at the shoulder as he is reaching out to grab my pot. He looks at me in amazement and I say
"Not so fast , sir... no-one Jimmy cracks my corn!"
He walks away mumbling obsenities at me with a look of crazed bewilderment. I'm thinking to myself, this guy has really got to get a hold of his temper! It's just a game for Christs sake!
Now I've doubled up on my first hand and things are looking good. So I pull up my chair and buckle up for what I know will be a heck of an adventure. I proceed to hang around but can't seem to catch any cards. I am now down to about my starting stack. Based on a quick look accross the room, I determine that we are down to 7,371 people. I've already beat 2,629 people!
I'm pumped!
We have been playin for about 11 hours, 34 minutes and 16 seconds to this point. I cant stand it any more and I run to cool off my lizard.
As I am exiting the bathroom, I walk by the shoeshine guy and notice an odd looking man getting his shoes shined who is covered from head to toe in a blanket, wearing a cowboy hat and only has his eyes showing through. He kind of reminded me of that guy from Fat Albert wearing a ski cap with eye holes down to his nose.
I do a double take and realize he is staring intently at me. Secure in my heterosexuality, I roll my eyes, snicker and walk on by.
All of a sudden, he yells "No-one Jimmy cracks MY corn!" and swings a 14th century, medievil decapitation device so deftly and perfectly, I feel as if I have been thrown back in time 700 years!
I feel a sharp twang and think, "Oh no! Not my buckets of Lovin!" I reach down and feel that my rucksack is still in tact and breath a deep sigh of relief. I start to walk off and fall pin-perfect square on my nose, immediately transforming me into a Joe Piscapo look-a-like. S@#$! Of all the damn luck.
I start to get up and realize something is awry, but I cant figure out what it is. Then it dawns on me and I think, "where's my F$@%ING Leg?" That rat bastard, cowboy wannabe cut it clean off below the hip as retribution for me beating him fair and square at the table! By the time I realize what happened, he was long gone. What a sore, freakin loser!
I give the shoe shine man a couple of Lincolns to polish my nub (you should have seen the looks). Then I go ahead and have him tie a turnicut around whats left of my leg as well. I'm getting uptight and impatient because I've been away from the table too long. I get the shoeshine geek to finish up his handiwork and pogo stick as fast as I can back to my seat only to find that I have already lost 1/2 my stack thanks to several orbits in my absence.
I look around the room and immediately surmise that we have thankfully lost another 1643 players. Now we're getting down to manageable numbers! But I need chips!
Unfortunately, I'm the swinging cheesecrack at the table and don't have much weight to throw around. Thats ok, Ive been in tougher situations than this before.
I hang around as long as I can and finally decide to take a stand. I smooth-limp-raise (ALL IN ONE MOTION!) with 6,8 offsuit and am called in two places.
The flop comes 6/2/10 offsuit.
The first player folds out of turn and I move all my chips in and stare directly in the face of the player to my left. I mean I AM IN THIS GUYS FACE! I am giving him that "You dont wanna piece of me!" and "Man, I am in a zone!" look. I pull out a pound of mind zen s@#@t and begin to spread it evenly accross his whole being. I say "Come on man, whats it gonna be? what's u gonna do? Come on with it, COME ON!!!" Its then that I know I have him. I stop, lean back and wait for what I know is coming......
To my utter astonishment, he looks at me and says:
"What the hell is your problem, I'm not even in the hand!"
DOH!
What was I thinking?....Flush goes all that zen mind s#$$@t! I turn around and get smacked in the face by my lone remaining opponent calling my bet and throwing his pocket aces face up for all the world to see.
I slump in my chair feeling a total sense of desperation, perspiration, depression, one half cup milk, 3/4 of a cup of flour, 1 teaspoon of vanilla, 2 cups of sugar... oh wait, thats a cookie recipe! Where am I? Oh thats right, back to the hand...
The turn is a J.
I'm in deep pucky now! I have to hit a 6 or 8 or my visions of grandeur are over. I begin to concentrate deeper than I ever have in my entire life. I squeeze every fiber of my mind, body and soul determined to will that final card I need to allow me to live another day. So, while mustering all the mind over matter control I have, I must have exerted too much muscle tension because as the dealer was turning the river card, I felt a small methane explosion erupt from my starboard side. Amazingly, at that exact instant, a player seated driectly behind me had turned away from his table to grab a quick cigarette. Apparantly he lite his match at the identical moment of my spontaneous combustion. This created an unbelievable explosion that sent him careening accross the room along with hundreds and perhaps thousands of my opponents.
Somehow, everyone at my table was unaffected by this sequence of events. Apparantly, the brunt of the explosion was only forced in the direction of my posterior. I can only assume that the deep concentration and muscle tension allowed me to stay in my chair during this incredible episode.
I felt like my world was moving in slow motion. As I gathered my thoughts enough to turn my attention back to the hand, I noticed everyone's gaze was set upon the river card that had apparantly been blown from the dealers hand. It was slowly making its way down to the table like a leaf falling from a tree, swinging back and forth, round and round, slowly, but still too fast to make out what it was. It finally came to rest and it was beauty to my eyes when I saw the lovely 6 of clubs, making me the nut, three-card monte.
I look at my opponent, who had turned various shades of purple and blue, and say:
"Don't mess with the Ninja, Zen, mind warrior"!
As I reach to grab the pot, I realize I have just defeated the infamous chef Wolfgang Puck! Lost in my own world of self admiration, I hardly notice that in his rage, he had cleanly removed one of my eyeballs with his potato peeler and is pontificating about what a wonderful appetizer it will make for his dog named mushmouth. When I come to my senses, I looked at the table in horror realizing that Puck-head had removed my arm as well and was stacking my pot!
All that was left of my hard earned pot was a lifeless limb pointlessly laying there in the middle of the green-felt poker arena.
I always say that good players should not loose their temper or provoke the fish and act in a professional manner. So, in an effort to be true to my words, I grab my arm, tilt my cap and say "nice hand sir" and begin to leave the table. I guess in all the excitement, I had forgotten that I now only had one leg and fell flat on my face again. As I fell, my torn apendage flew from my grasp and landed a few feet from my reach. As it hit the ground, something caught my eye. I crawled forward inch by inch struggling to maintain my focus. At last! There it was in the palm of my once attached hand!
One lone hundred dollar chip!
Feeling like Excaliber on Sesame Street, I wrestled it from its chains of rigor mortis and leaped to my foot, thrusting it in the air. With a grin on my face, I look at the table and say:
"It's all over now! I'm back in business Ladies and Cheese-Sticks!!!!!"
At this point we were down to 3,473 players, but there could have been one million or more. They knew it, I knew it and it was only a matter of time before the whole world would know that a one-eyed, one-legged, one-armed man with one lone hundred dollar chip not only survived but went on to beat a field of 9,999.
This was by far my greatest come back!
Jeff Fairey
Congratulations to Mike Magee on his second place finish, and commiserations that he missed out on the bracelet.
Mike is one tough SOB of a player but a nice guy as well.
Andy.
3000 pounds? I guess they're holding a big tourney in the UK now also?
;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
.
$35 buy-in gets you $800 in chips. Limits start at $15/30 and more-or-less double every 20 minutes. This is my fifth attempt at this particular tournament. In the previous four, I have won a total of ten hands, busting out in the fourth round three times and the fifth once. Anyhoo, in this one, I actually catch some hands which stand up. We start with 15 tables and 115 or so players. At the second break, we are down to 3 tables and 22 or so players. I have $4400, about the average size stack. I'm feeling pretty good about this until I realize that we're going to $100 ante, $400 bring-in, $800/1600 limits. There are a number of stacks shorter than mine, and a number much larger. In my judgment, I cannot just coast into the money (nine places paid). I have to win at least another hand or two in order to get into the money.
I spend the break telling myself that I'm going to wait for the goods and then play 'em fast. First hand back, I have (9c9d)Qd. This was not quite the hand I had in mind. I look around. Nines and Queens are live. One diamond is out. The bring-in is two to my right and extremely short-stacked. Next player folds. I think, "raise or fold; raise or fold." Inexplicably, I just call the $400 bet. I get one other caller, also short-stacked. She catches an Ace to go with (I think) a Jack. Bring-in catches nothing special. I catch a Jack. AJ bets, almost all-in, bring-in calls all-in, I call. On fifth street, I pair the Jack and bet enough to put AJx all-in. Her Aces-up win the pot and give her new life. Bring-in is eliminated. I'm in panic mode.
Towards the end of this round, we are now down to two tables. I've had my stack whittled away by the antes and a bring-in or two, and I'm down to about $1200 after the ante. I have (J5)J rainbow. To my dismay, there is a Jack out. Fives are live. I am in early position. I raise, sincerely hoping that everyone will fold. Naturally, there are four callers. On fourth street, the case Jack dies and I catch a six. There is a bet. I decide that my best chance at this point is to call all-in and hope I catch a second pair. No second pair comes, and Carl makes a flush anyway. I bust out 14th, five out of the money.
I'm modestly successful in ring games, but I think I'm pretty much clueless about what to do when short-stacked. I'm almost never short-stacked in ring games, as I generally bring more money than I have any intention of losing. Comments appreciated.
I have never won a penny in stud but the few tournies I have played I have noticed that as the antes and bring-ins get bigger, it is important to come in for a raise. So with your (99)Q I would have raised.
Shortstacked I probably would have also raised like you did with your split jacks.
Ken Poklitar
Going all-in with JJ5, even with 1 J dead, is fine given your chip position.
As you thought, raise-or-fold was definitely the play with 99Q, and I would strongly favor the raise. Calling was the worst of the 3 choices.
Stud tourneys, like high-ante high-limit games, are a lot about stealing the antes + bring-in. Especially once you get past the first few rounds and everyone is essentially short-stacked. The trick is to steal more than your share of pots, all the while maintaining a tight image that allows you to continue stealing more pots.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Ante-stealing comes up every 30 hours or so in my usual $4/8 game. There were several hands where everyone folded and the bring-in won the antes. There were a couple of hands where I was in position to steal the antes. On the first, the bring-in raised me back and I folded, perhaps incorrectly (my hand was (T2)Q). The second time I raised him, I had enough of a hand to call his re-raise, but he paired his door card on fourth and that was the end of that. I'll stop short of saying that this guy is a good player, but he did go on to win the tournament.
I'm almost positive the tourney you're talking about is at Canterbury (you didnt say). I'm just curious if you new what the payouts were for any of the 1-9 places?
thanks
Yes, this was Canterbury. I do remember that first was $900, second $600, and ninth $90. The percentages given on the flyer are:
1st 30%
2nd 20%
3rd 15%
4th 10%
5th 7%
6th 6%
7th 5%
8th 4%
9th 3%
This gives the following payouts:
1st $900
2nd $600
3rd $450
4th $300
5th $210
6th $180
7th $150
8th $120
9th $90
This, combined with the two $250 "Celebrity Bounties", added up to the $3500 guarantee. Actually, there were three celebrities as Dan "Common Man" Cole brought his brother or something. They didn't have quite as many people as usual (first has been around $1200 at the ones I've been to before), probably because of the threatening weather.
This is not the hand the knocked me out, but it's the one that really damaged my stack. I'd like comments to see if others would have played it as I did.
We started with 340 players and it's down to 40 or so on 5 tables. So the average stack would be around 8,500 and I have just over 5,000. I'm in the big blind and Chris Bigler is in the cutoff seat. He has about 2,500 or about half of my stack.
Just some background on his play. He is a very good player and every chance he had to steal, he would. If he was first in the pot in late position he would always raise. If reraised he would fold almost every time. When he had to show down a hand, it usually wasn't very good. When he had a good hand, he would usually make a smaller raise or just call.
He had been the chip leader at the table, but had recently lost some big hands that put him at 2,500 in chips. So on this hand he was the first to enter the pot and went all-in. The button and small blind folded. I looked down at my cards and saw pocket ten's. I was pretty sure I was ahead. If I win, I'm almost at par and have eliminated one of the better players at my table. If I lose, I've got only 2,500 in chips with the blinds 200/400 and a 100 ante (if I recall correctly).
I'm already ahead for the trip thanks to a satellite win and a last longer bet on this tournament. So my mindset is not to just hang on for an "in the money" finish, but to accumulate some chips so I can make a run at the win, or at least a good finish. So I called. Just as I thought, he did not have a good hand. He had KTo. With my pocket ten's, he needed a King. But the flop came an AJ and the river was a Q, giving him the nuts.
I could have folded to his all in raise, but I believe I made the correct play.....but would like to hear other points of view.
JohnnyD
This play sounds fine to me.
Regarding your comment, "if reraised he would fold almost every time", I hope you were taking advantage of this with your position over him !
Andy.
I think you did absolutely fine.
There would have been no doubt in my mind that, with TT, I had the best hand a very good portion of the time (according to what you said about the player). Against KT, regardless of the suits, you are about a 2.1:1 favorite. He just sucked out.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
.
Johnny D - please don't take this post personally but there seems to be a large number of recent posts that go along the lines of:
a) i looked at my marginal cards b) i made my decision c) my decision was correct because i had the better hand d) i got outdrawn and lost e) did i do the right thing?
the answer is always yes. i don't know if people just want some kind of therapeutic reassurance that they did the right thing - i suspect that goes some way to explaining this phenomenon though.
johnny, the likelihood is that you obviously know how to play poker if you're playing in the WSOP - i'm sure you know 100% that getting your chips in with TT vs KT is a good spot to find yourself in
i don't mean to criticise i'm just interested to know what other people think about this
I had been thinking the same thing myself.
Andy.
obviously an english thing then....!
I don't take your post personally. If fact, that's what I think when I read most of the PokerPages hands post here. My reason for posting this is that I'm trying to bring my game up a notch. I'm getting close (i.e. 35th of 340 in the Seniors, 2nd table in a super, 2nd table of 10 at the Sun night Orleans tournament) but I'm having trouble closing the deal, as we say in sales.
I was playing at the Desert Classis a few weeks ago and was sitting next to a fellow Pheonix area player. When we when on break he referenced a hand that I had played and said you should have done so and so and here's why. What he said made perfect sense, but I had never thought of it or ever read it anywhere. So you never know where and when you're going to get some good information that will help your play.
JohnnyD
JohnnyD -
OK, you have our attention. What was the tidbit so we can discuss it?
-Oz-
It was really something very simple. I was in late position with a KJo. I'm the first in so I put in a standard size raise. The only caller is the big blind. The flop comes king high with two spades. My king is a spade. I make a small bet and get called. The turn is another spade. I make a small bet and get called. The river is another spade. So I have second nut flush. I just check, in case he has the ace of spades. He makes a large bet. I call and he does have the ace of spades. The advice was that I should have make another small bet on the river. He'll fold if he doesn't have a spade, maybe call if he has a medium spade and raise only if he has the Ace. If he raises, I should fold. It would have cost me a small bet instead of a large bet. Like I said, it was something very simple, but I just hadn't thought of it like that.
JohnnyD
Actually the answer is not always yes.
I agree that many times someone posts a hand like this that the player did it right but sometimes there is some other perspective from someone that may change how the person plays it the next time.
Ken Poklitar
I personnally welcome any post on the forum. I feel the more the better. If to you or me the play was obvious, then fine. A lot of beginners (not JohnnyD here, as he surely is not one )who read the forum may have questionned themselves about the play and now they know. I know that if it wasn't for this forum, I wouldn't be at the level I am now or at the level I'll be next year. If we only post the most difficult situations, it's hard for anybody who's starting up to get better as they won't understand and appreciate it all.
JohnnyD is a well respected poster and sometimes the best players question themselves. Don't you ?
I know I certainly do and it always gives me confidence when I post a hand here and everyone agrees with the play I made. Confidence is very important in poker.
This was not intended to badger anyone, I just think we should welcome any contribution to the forum, as they all make us better, consciously or subconsciously.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
As a beginner looking to start getting into tournament action it is nice to see hands on which most of the experienced players can come to a consensus. Nuances are great, but such posts highlight fundamentals.
Jon I.
But, the answer isn't always yes.
For example, if Johnny had said he had 22, I would have told him his call was a mistake, even though he was the (slight) favorite to win preflop.
Similarly, many people criticized the play in last year's Championship event when Jeff Shulman called Chris Ferguson's all-in bet when Jeff held 77 to Chris' 66. But wait, Jeff was way ahead. Yet, many people said he got lucky, that the way the hand played, it was not very likely that Chris held an underpair, and that Jeff should have passed. So, I don't know who's right in that case, but it is clearly not an obvious answer.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In your shoes, with your $ status for the trip, I would have felt as you did, i.e. "go for the win". It also appears that you were very confident on your read of his play. Given that, I don't beleive you had any other play with ppT in that position.
The poker gods just ruled against you that time.
Don't you just love it when that happnes??
Last 11 Paradise tourneys(Lets assume they are all 5 dollar tourneys.):
one 1st +$25 three 2nds +$45 three 3rds +$30 4 out of the money. T
I pay $66 in buyins and get back $100 for a net win of $34.00. Not bad, but certainly not a significant money maker and I would have to say my results were very good.
So unless you do extremely well on a consistent basis, these appear to be losing propositions.
Example win rate: assuming $5 tourneys with a $6 dollar buy-ins and you win one 1st, one 2nd and one 3rd out of 10 tourneys entered. That would equate to a 30% win percentage which is a pretty high win percentage for tourneys, right?
That would result in a win of $25, $15 and $10 for a total win of $50. However, you would spend a total of $60 and end up losing $10 dollars overall.
So my questions are:
Is there any long term +ev in playing these things? Can I truly expect to win, place or show at my current levels? Even if I do, I dont win much (I do enjoy them for fun and experience though, althugh I'm not sure if they are good experience).
It appears Paradise has set up a structure to keep the tourneys running as long as possible by allowing more players to win a piece of the pie, thus keeping more people in action. They benefit from a structure that is not too advantageous to a more skilled player so that the games dont dry up.
Is my analysis correct, what do y'all think?
Finishing first once, second once and third once out of ten tries is exactly average. You lose the house charge for each one. If you assume you are better than average, you should be able to make money.
One suggested target would be to finish twice as often as the average, which would be making $100, but paying $60. However, this is pretty debatable, search the archives for more discussion.
I would suggest the $10 tourneys, you pay less to Paradise percentage wise, and they are not much harder than the $5 ones as far as I can tell.
30% win rate is exactly average for these things, so no, it is not good. 50-60% is more like a very good win rate.
I figure a great player can achieve about 100% return on investment. In other words, enter 10 events, and you will average 2 each of the wins, places, and shows. I haven't yet played enough to verify that I can do it, and am down to a 70% ROI at this time.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
First of all there is very little +ev at the $5 tournies. I think a good player can make the money close to 50% of the time in these tournies averaging a minimum of 20%. I think there is money to be made at the $50 or $100 tournies. So since a tourney lasts about 1 hour, you could make $20 per hour in the $100 tournies. A very good player can probably make more.
Ken Poklitar
If you can earn $20/hr playing PP tourneys, you shouldn't be wasting your time on this forum. Those tournaments are so fast that the correct strategy is to play super fast and aggressive. Even if you play optimally, the SD is so huge with the rapid and large blind increases that it becomes very difficult to beat the 10% rake unless you either get lucky, or play for infinity.
ch
I think the results of a number of players, especially Greg above, show that this is not true.
Playing my second limit tourney last night (starting with 1600 in chips with 72 players). Top 9 are in the money and there are 14 players left.
I am semi-short stacked compared to the rest of the players (5 very short stacks left - but all at the other table) but very short stack compared to the blinds. The blinds were 500/1000 and I have about 4500 left. Table extremely tight. Two hands fairly close to each other.
MP - folded to me. I have 10,10. I fold.
MP - UTG raises - very solid player. I have J,J. I fold.
Were these plays correct or wimpy? Since I am new to tourneys I am not sure how to handle cash management issues near the money.
Anyway, I end up placing 8th. Had the nut flush draw on the flop at the final table to 5X through for a third of the chips but two worthless cards fell. Oh well. One of the most exciting things I have ever done.
On the 1st hand I definitely would raise with TT. You say the table is tight. Tight gives you the ability to raise and take the blinds.
The 2nd hand it depends a lot on the UTG raiser. If you have only seen him raise with quality hands then a fold may be okay. I might have decided this is the key hand and re-raised him.
Now if you are 10 handed in these cases then I might fold but you are still 4 away from the money.
Congrats on hitting the money!
Ken Poklitar
Folding the JJ is fine, but I definitely would've raised when first in with TT. You have such a good chance of stealing the blinds, and if you don't, you're still likely to be ahead of the caller. Once somebody else raises, being in front isn't so clear, even with a very good hand like JJ, so folding it is acceptable.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
remember that in both trnmnt and ring games,aggression is rewarded when well placed. Jim
Ditto Fossilman
Hi....our casino back home is starting to plan some bigger tournaments and they are interested in using the TEARS system....but we cant find it anywhere...could anyone give me some suggestions on where I might be able to go to locate such a thing???
look for an article about it at pokerpages.com. You'll find Tex's email there.
Also, I personnally wrote a thread 2 weeks ago about it. Look in the archives here for the exact site.
The structure is no longer available on the net. If you email Tex, he or a representative will gladly respond and offer help.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Hi all,
I'm new to Colorado and I would like to play in some of the tournaments up in Blackhawk. I was wondering if anyone had any info about them. I'm looking for the average number of players, average payout amounts and the ones that might be the best choice to play in. I'm pretty much interested in Texas hold'em. Thanks in advance for any info. Also, any idea where and when are the best ring games played?
I've only played tourneys at Bullwhacker's, which is a very nice poker room (considering the Colorado laws anyway). I've heard Harveys' tourneys are modeled after the Bullwhacker's tourneys, so expect them to be similar, but on different nights.
Thursday night is the biggest tourney, $35 no limit holdem with 2 $30 rebuys. The limits rise fast and the players are mostly there to gamble. Expect bad beats, but also a soft field. There are usually 96 players, which is(was?) the max, and most of them will rebuy both times, so the total prizes is around $8000, first place I believe is 35% or something similar.
Tuesday night gets only around 40 players often, no limit holdem with no rebuys. The entry is $50, with all money going back to the players. The players in this tourney are much more likely to be decent, but rarely great.
This was a $330 one table at the world series of poker. EAch player started with $1200 in chips. There were four of us left and I was the big blind at the $100-$200 level. One person was so low on chips he could not survive the blinds, and three of us has around $4000 in chips. The button had been raising alot from any position all along with any big cards or any pair. He also had around $4000 in chips and made a small raise to $400. Everyone else had folded and I held 8s9c. Since he was so erratic I didn't know where to put him, but should I call in that situation or normally just let them go?
The flop came 10cJcQc........
since you say he had been raising with big cards and pairs, don't see how you could call. about that flop--he probably raised wiyh A,K and you would have been busted!!! Jim
89o is never a hand to call a raise in this situation. Occasionally you might reraise if you thought you could get the guy to fold, but usually just let him take your blind.
To go into more detail we need to know what the payout structure in this tourney is.
OK. Let me check my assumptions first. This is winner take all and the blinds are 100-200 ? Correct me if either is wrong and I'll start again :-)
So it's 200 to call with 500 in the pot - I will call with a lot of hands and this is probably one of them. You are out of position and may need to tread carefully if you flop one pair but the implied odds are there to trap the guy. Depends how good he is too and whether you can outplay him on the flop.
Another possibility is to re-raise - will he drop a lot of hands do you think ? Worth considering.
The fact that this is a winner take all situation means that survival is unimportant. I would take a shot in this situation.
Andy.
I agreed with your thinking. Even though I knew I was behind, it seemed that he made a mistake givning me a cheap shot at the flop because the implied odds were huge. It is a winner take all tounrament so my thought was I might be able to get him all in if I flopped well (although it's winner take all there are alot of deals when it gets to 2 handed).
The problem is that Jim Browder is correct; my opponent had AK with the Kc. I was beat on the flop and only the 8c could win it for me.
Even though the outcome of the hand busted me, I can't help but think that the other player made a mistake by not raising enough due to the implied odds. I'm still not sure if I'd play it the same way again...
It's worth pointing out that, even if there are a lot of deals heads-up, this doesn't change the "winner-take-all" strategy because if you survive to get heads up with only 10% of the chips you still have no bargaining power because second prize is nothing. The chips do not change value like they do in a proportional payout tournament.
Andy.
I played a lot of those $330 no limit satellites. I would have called the cheap raise to see the flop. On the flop I would have checked to the original raiser. If the original raiser bet a small amount, I would check raise the same amount and muck if he then went all in. If he just called I would proceed with caution.
If one more person busts out you are in good shape for a three way chop, or a chance to win later on. See my post of May 12th.
Given the chip counts, there is essentially no hand I'm going to fold in your spot. You only have to call 200 to win 700, plus implied odds of something like 3500 more.
The only reason to fold preflop is if you're sure that this person can seriously outplay you postflop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I can get final results on completed trnmnts from pokerpages.com but is there a place to get updates on ,for example, one which started final 3 tables at noon today? Jim
Super Satelitte - 2nd round after break so blinds are about 50 100 or 75 150. I've got about T 1000. A 9 in middle position - I bring it in for a pot size raise, say ~T400. All fold but BB who calls. Flop Ace 6 4. BB (who cashed in $2000 no-limit) checks, I bet T400,(leaving me with about T250-T300) he check-raises.
What do you do?
Going to have to call now. But I question your pre-flop raise. How many people still to act ? If it's four or more then I would pass. This is exactly the kind of situation you will find yourself in too often. When you raise and hit your hand, I think you have to play on, especially heads-up, and if the situation isn't right to play when you hit, then you shouldn't be raising in the first place.
Andy
I folded because I thought I was drawing to 3 nines. I subsequently blinded away. I'll never raise with A 9 in middle position in a supersatellite again.
I think you made the wrong fold, and learned the wrong lesson.
You're pot stuck. You should have bet all-in on the flop, since even that was less than a pot-sized bet. If he has a better A, them's the breaks.
Maybe you shouldn't have raised with A9 here, very true. But don't think you never should. If the situation is right, where you're going to win the blinds pretty often, then you should make the raise. The only reason not to raise with any 2 cards is that you want to have some potential when you do get called, and you don't want to turn over 24o and make it impossible for you to steal for the rest of the tourney.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I tried a $10 Paradise 7CS tourney today, and saw someone call with a pair of 6's against someone with Aces among his/her upcards on to a river bet heads up (the Aces was betting)!
The Aces just had aces, and the other player just had 6's.
Anyways, the win amount is less since there's only 8 players. Played 2 tournies, got one 1st and one 5th. Saw players pushing Ace high when they had a draw heads up, and a few people betting/calling with hands like [7T]A rainbow against a tight all-in raiser. Tight standard ring game play seems to get you the money.
Game #74294286 (Level II, Game #2) - 20/40 7-card stud - 2001/05/11-23:45:46 (CST) Table "Labasa" ($10 tournament) Seat 1: AllAces (549 in chips) Seat 2: Johnny (1,072 in chips) Seat 3: Studhoss (693 in chips) Seat 4: WhySettle (1,040 in chips) Seat 5: kikita (952 in chips) Seat 6: _justme (563 in chips) Seat 7: jennylynn (758 in chips) Seat 8: 00007 (773 in chips) AllAces : Ante (2) Johnny : Ante (2) Studhoss: Ante (2) WhySettle: Ante (2) kikita : Ante (2) _justme : Ante (2) jennylynn: Ante (2) 00007 : Ante (2) Dealing... Dealt to Johnny [ 3s ] Dealt to Johnny [ 9d ] Dealt to AllAces [ 5h ] Dealt to Johnny [ Qh ] Dealt to Studhoss [ Jd ] Dealt to WhySettle [ Ah ] Dealt to kikita [ 5s ] Dealt to _justme [ Ks ] Dealt to jennylynn [ Kh ] Dealt to 00007 [ 4h ] 00007 : Bring-in (10) AllAces : Call (10) Johnny : Fold Studhoss: Fold WhySettle: Call (10) kikita : Call (10) _justme : Fold jennylynn: Fold Dealt to AllAces [ 3h ] Dealt to WhySettle [ Ad ] Dealt to kikita [ 6s ] Dealt to 00007 [ 2d ] WhySettle: Raise (40) kikita : Call (40) 00007 : Fold AllAces : Call (40) Dealt to AllAces [ Ac ] Dealt to WhySettle [ 8d ] Dealt to kikita [ 6c ] WhySettle: Bet (40) kikita : Call (40) AllAces : Call (40) Dealt to AllAces [ 7c ] Dealt to WhySettle [ Js ] Dealt to kikita [ 2s ] WhySettle: Bet (40) kikita : Call (40) AllAces : Call (40) Dealing... WhySettle: Bet (40) kikita : Call (40) <------ What the Heck! AllAces : Fold *** SUMMARY *** Pot: 496 | AllAces lost 132 (folded) [ xx xx 5h 3h Ac 7c xx ] Johnny lost 2 (folded) [ 3s 9d Qh ] Studhoss lost 2 (folded) [ xx xx Jd ] WhySettle bet 172, collected 496, net +324 (showed hand) [ 9s 6h Ah Ad 8d Js 2h ] (a pair of aces) kikita lost 172 (showed hand) [ Td 4c 5s 6s 6c 2s 8s ] (a pair of sixes) _justme lost 2 (folded) [ xx xx Ks ] jennylynn lost 2 (folded) [ xx xx Kh ] 00007 lost 12 (folded) [ xx xx 4h 2d ]
Sorry about the formatting. How do you add returns in hand history posts???
n/t
What's the payout for these 8-handed events?
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
$10 each + $1 fee pays 40-24-16. I played a Stud 8-or-better event last night which I enjoyed a lot (though did not cash) and will be trying this further before reporting. It seems like you can get a lot more play compared to the Hold-Em.
Andy.
I agree. I played a stud-8 tourney last night ( not very well ). I ended up in 5th but it does seem that you can wait out some pretty good hands. I was the bring-in quite often and played too many hands.
I think you can fold everyhand and if you don't hit a lot of bring-ins you can get very close to the money. So if you just play premium starting hands you can get in the money quite often.
Ken Poklitar
Yeah the blinds don't increase as fast as in HE tournies, and there seems to be more action, but that might change with time.
The thing I don't like is that the payouts seem so much smaller, but mathematically I think it's the same as the 10 handed HE tournies, since instead of competing against 9 others, you're up against 7 others, which improves your changes of winning.
This is a hand I played in a NL tournament. We are relatively early in the tourney, blinds are 10-20 and I have approximately t1300 in chips, which is average compared with the other players at the table.
We are preflop, I have KK in the pocket and I bet T50 UTG. Everyone folds to the button, who calls my bet. SB and BB fold. Button is a tight, fairly aggressive player and has approximately T800 in chips. Flop comes J-J-8, with no flush draw possible. Judging by his reaction when the flop came, I was convinced that button had something good, in my mind either a set (which was my big concern) or two good pairs, in what case I think I'm in good position. I check, button bets T150. I raise him to T500, as I want to eliminate the possibility of a bluff and button goes immediately all-in. After a long tought I decided to fold the hand. My question is did I play correctly on the flop? Should I've bet first? Should I've just called his bet or immediately fold?
After the game, the guy told me he had QQ in the pocket... Well he had me confused. As I look back at the hand, I think my biggest mistake was my raise preflop, which wasn't large enough. What do you think?
Thanks for your comments JF
As soon as I started reading your post, the first thing I thought was, that is not nearly a big enuff raise preflop. My second thought is your raise on the flop was way too big and smelled of bluff. That's why he pushed in. I'm not sure I would of layed down to his reraise, you just lost half your chips, but it is still very early. Just my humble opinion.
that is all, danny boy :o)
to begin with, you know he probably would have raised before the flop with aces- thus you don't fear that. next you know the odds are very slim for him to have a J--thus you don't fear that. perhaps you should have moved in after flop. certainly you should not have folded. in a trnmnt we live under threat of being knocked out, but remember you have to play something! good luck, Jim
I would raise 80 pre-flop which is a raise or 3xBB. It probably doesn't make much difference in this hand.
I probably would bet 150 on the flop. If he goes all-in then I most likely release the hand at that point. I think your check-raise had the same effect except it cost much more.
The only question I have on the fold is how many more chips did he have? It appears 250. There is 1380 in the pot. Hard to say if you should call based on the pot size. Probably not if you are sure he has a Jack.
I would be surprised if he really had QQ. Most players would re-raise with QQ pre-flop.
Ken Poklitar
I wouldn't [often] re-raise a solid player who raised UTG if I had QQ, I'd [usually] just call and make my decision on the flop.
Andy.
Of course you are correct. It really depends on the UTG player.
Against loose raisers I would normally re-raise with QQ.
Ken Poklitar
Hi Ken
To answer your question, you're right, it would've cost me approximately 300 more to call his all-in re-raise. I guess I should have called considering the pot size but what motivated my fold is the fact that he had me believed he had the J in his hand. If I call and lose the hand, I have 500 left, instead of 800 if I fold right now. The blinds are only 10-20, which give me time to rebuild from there. But I realize my play wasn't solid enough on this one. As was mentionned above, I think my raise on the flop was to large, inducing a bluff and making him believe I have a hand like AK or AQ. If I had thought of that on the spot, my decision would have been a lot easier...:(
I definitely learned on this one though.
Hey JF Roy :)
Yup, you said it grasshoppa. Gotta make a bigger raise than that, maybe to T100 IMO.
Why's he smooth-calling T50 preflop with QQ? He's taking a big chance or making a very weak play. This is not the MO of a seasoned tourney player. Lord knows when he'll see another nice starting hand like this. I think he's either gotta make a strong over the top move or lay em down. Not really panic time for him yet though.
Sorry to see such a crappy flop for your cowboys. His position really wins the pot here. It's entirely possible to me that he could have limped with some weak hands like AJ or even KJ in his position. Really tough decision here, I think you have to lead in this situation about T150 on the flop. If he just calls, I smell a rat. If he raises all in, he probably gets you to lay down the better hand. Either way, I think you end of losing the hand because of poor position and worse flop for your hand. Even though you want to go out shootin, this is not the hand to do that.
Check-raise here is not a good idea, it essentially tells him that you don't have a J. Wrong street to try that.
Unfortunately, it's one of those grit your teeth folds and wait for a better opportunity to come along. Instead of losing T550, could have kept it under T200. With blinds only at 10-20, still plenty of time to accumulate some ammo.
Curious, did this one hand kind of cripple your tournament? How did you end up doing? In the money? You can definitely learn from this, I've done things like this too. It becomes very gratifying when you get a similar situation 2-3 months later and get a much better outcome.
Keep on shootin :) Best wishes Mike
I agree, I'll bet he gained some experience with this hand, especially after reviewing these excellent posts. I learned a few things also.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
What about just smooth-calling his flop bet? Won't that make it look like you're slow-playing a J? If so, won't he check behind you on the turn unless he has a J? Maybe not, but it's a possibility to consider.
Also, I like to raise to triple the big blind preflop almost every time I raise preflop as the first one in. So, I make it 60 to go, which isn't that much different than 50. I don't like to raise much more than triple because then my failed steal attempts cost too much.
If you're going to fold to his reraise, then you needed to raise less on your check-raise. Check-raising to 300 looks like a potential J (you're trying to suck him in with a minimum raise), yet it costs you 200 less when you fold to his all-in.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I played several no limit holdem satellites. I was amazed by how so many of the so called expert players played. If some of these players saw an ace or a pair early on in the satellite, or a flush draw after the flop---THEY WOULD GO ALL IN.
Maybe that is a good strategy, maybe that is not a so good strategy. In my opinion a more conservative strategy is in order early on. In my opinion do not go all in before the flop unless you have aa, kk or ak. All other hands muck for an all in raise early in the tournament. Later on in the tournament, starting hand and all in hands should go down in value depending on the situation. Comments appreciated
Its not a good strategy. They are relying on image and fear to get ahead early. I'll bet they slow down if they've won a hand or too? I'm sure they're well financed and don't really care that much about the satellite. Your talking about a super right?
that is all,
danny boy :o)
Of course the answer is "It depends."
But I suspect that these playes probably should have tried to outplay their opponents postflop... (If they're good/great player this should be no problem.) Or maybe I'm just missing something fundamental in tournament/satellite play.
Sincerly, Andreas
I think some of the better known players 1) get bored quickly in the one table satellites and tend to play overly agressively and 2) play much different than they would in the actual tournament because they understand how much more "play" you get in the tournament and how little you get in the satellites.
JohnnyD
I also played quite a few of the no limit one table satellites and agree with the conservative approach early on. I found that most of the time by staying conservative early you could make it down to the last four people, especially in light of the wild play by many of the players in the early stages. At that point of course you have to be aggressive with more marginal hands but at least for me the strategy worked.
I have been told that some of them use -get chips early or bust out early-stratagy. a big stack and big image may make good tool. their results suggest this may not be bad, if you've got bankroll! Jim
I think Jim may have the answer. They prefer to double up early and gain the big stack advantage, or go broke fast and move on to the next satellite.
I don't think this is a good strategy, but I think some of them do.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It seems to me that when I start a tournament and the table is very tight, everyone is at a tremendous disadvantage. These tournaments usually have about 80 or 90 players. When you hear the chips splashing at the other tables, that's where the finalists are coming from.
Any thoughts or advice?
If it's a rebuy tournament and another table has lots of rebuys, then you might be right. On the other hand, I find that players who, by loose play, accumulate lots of chips quickly, lose them just as quickly.
JohnnyD
Even if it's true that you're at a disadvantage (which I doubt) there isn't anything you can do about it, so just concentrate on taking advantage of this tight play as best you can.
Andy.
Consider a 3-person tournament with 6 total dollars. On each round a dollar is randomly transferred from one remaining contestant to another, i.e., 6 possibile outcomes per round. At each point the probability of a final outcome is simply an equally-weighted average of the 6 probability outcomes at the end of the next round. I have solved these equations for the probabilities.
If you have $4 your chances of finishing (1,2,3) are (788/1182,344/1182,50/1182).
If you have $3 your chances are (591/1182,441/1182,150/1182).
If everybody has $2 your chances are obviously (1/3,1/3,1/3) = (394/1182,394/1182,394/1182).
If you have $2 and your opponents have $3 and $1 then your chances are (394/1182,482/1182,306/1182).
If you have $1 and your opponents have $3 and $2 then your chances are (197/1182,259/1182,726/1182).
If you have $1 and your opponents have $4 and $1 then your chances are (197/1182,419/1182,566/1182).
You can verify each number is an average of adjacent outcomes. For example, the 259/1182 chance of coming in second is an average of 0, 0 (getting knocked out by either opponent), 419/1182, 259/1182, 1/3, and 482/1182.
There is nothing special about the tournament structure. Qualitatively similar results would occur with more money or different rules. With a larger amount of money (less discreteness) the results would be independent of the particular rules.
The probability of finishing first is simply proportional to your stack. But the probability of finishing second is nonlinear. With $1 your chance of finishing second is at least .219. But with $2 it is at most .408. So the probability of winning second place does not double when you double your stack. Indeed, winning more money may decrease your chance of finishing second. Small stacks are risk averse because "gambling" reduces their chances of finishing second.
Large stacks don't need or want to create variance; that happens just by sitting and playing. Instead you want variance in the other players bankrolls. If your opponents knock each other out then you are guaranteed a second place finish, with no reduction in your chance of finishing first.
In real poker tournaments the large stacks can attack the small stacks to compensate for the nonlinearity. In other words your last chips should be very valuable because you can conserve then to finish in-the-money. But they are less valuable when other players attack you and you are forced to gamble them.
When I posted here once that the math in poker is not as important in tournaments as in live games.....I think this is what I was talking about. :)
JohnnyD
Your example works when one dollar is randomly transferred, but in "real" poker tournaments, multiway pots exist. Would the chip leader's probability of finsihing first depend on the size of the other stacks if two players could lose a dollar in a single hand? Just curious.
As long as your expectation is zero for each round the probability of finishing first is proportional to your stack. It doesn't depend on the distribution of chips since you need to win them all. If you have no chips your chance is zero, and if you have all chips your chance is one.
The only exceptions I know are drawing hands where a short stack can't get full value in a multiway game. But this only happens on the last few rounds anyway.
The probabilities of finishing second or third depend slightly on the discreteness of having only 6 total chips. This discreteness effect practically disappears with 18 chips.
Is pokerpages the best? Does any place give updates every few hours or so?
I had a question for those more experienced in tournament poker than myself. (This was my second tournament)
So I was down to the final 16 and the limits went up to 500/1000. I had 2200 and was two away from having to pay my blinds (500+300). I was the short stack at the table and with K-10 offsuit, I decided to raise it up. Everyone folded except a guy in late position who reraised. I was pretty certain he had some sort of pocket cards from the way he was playing, but since I was already chip committed, I decided to push it all in. My rationale was that I needed to get to the final 10 to get in the money and so I took a shot before the blinds would eat half my stack with an above average, but not spectacular starting hand. (Since I had been moved to this table, this was the best hand I had been given. I had not even been dealt A-x from the final 3 tables to this point. One might say I was getting desperate.)
So the question is: should I have been more patient and waited for a better starting hand? or should I have folded to his reraise, leaving me with 1200 chips? or any other thoughts?
The result was: 10-J-4 giving me a pair. Then a 9 on the turn gave me an inside straight draw, and a blank of the river left me with a pair of 10's. He had pocket Q's. =P
Thanks in advance. sam
Once he reraises, you're pot-stuck and can't fold. However, you can increase your chances of winning. Don't reraise all-in. Just call. Then, bet the flop, and do whatever level of acting you think appropriate to convince him you hit the flop big, so he will fold. This way, he might fold when an A flops, even though he's still well ahead of your hand. I think this alternative is preferable to putting it all in preflop, even though you know you're not going to get away from your hand.
As for the original raise, it depends upon how likely you were to steal the blinds. If there was a good enough chance of it, then it was a good raise. If it was highly unlikely, then it was a bad raise.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This is a tough situation - you tried to steal and got caught. That happens.
K10o is not a very good hand (S&M group 6) and it is certainly not a multiway hand - so you were right to raise it if your intention was to minimize callers (or steal the blinds - was that possible at this table?).
Even heads-up K10o will only win 58% of the time against a random hand and lose 52% of the time against a pair of twos.
Add to that, you were short-stacked - and the late position still raised. Unless this guy bluffs a lot - I would read this as a bad sign. If you put him on a pocket pair, you are not getting the best of it and may wish to fold right there.
My experience is, when short-stacked hold out for the nuts - or at least something with more outs. Raises will not get much respect as everyone can cover you.
Hanging on by a thread and finishing 10th beats any out of the money finish in my book - can't win 'em all!
"My experience is, when short-stacked hold out for the nuts - or at least something with more outs. Raises will not get much respect as everyone can cover you.
Hanging on by a thread and finishing 10th beats any out of the money finish in my book - can't win 'em all!"
Please come and play in my games. Actually there are plenty of you already for me to push around but one more never hurts.
Andy.
Andy's post is more sarcastic but correct. This advice is WAY too tight.
What good is holding out for the nuts if by the time you get them you're so short-stacked that even when you win and double up, you're still the shortest stack left? Sometimes, you're better off taking a shot with a marginal hand while you've still got enough chips to scare people. However, when you do this, it doesn't always work, and you sometimes go broke with a very marginal hand. But, if you don't take the right risks at the right time, you won't ever be a regular winner in tournament poker.
The trick isn't avoiding risk. The trick is learning when to avoid it, and when to embrace it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
... but the post containing the original quote is IMO one of the worst and most potentially damaging pieces of advice I have seen on here in a long time. You gotta be cruel to be kind sometimes !
Andy.
Its late in a no limit tourney at the Mirage and we are down to about 25 players. I have just posted the $300 blind (SB is $150) and the aggressive chip leader makes it 1200. All fold to me. I have pocket 7's.
He has been pushing marginal hands consistently and is constantly raising many pots. I ponder a call but I will only have $150 left. He had been raising the pot around $600 but raised $1200 this time. For some reason, I felt this meant his hand may be weaker than usual and thought he may have pocket 5's or 6's.
I decide to take a shot and go all in.
He turns over J9 and hits a J on the flop and knocks me out.
How bad was this play?
I regret it because I lost, but I dont think thats a good reason to regret it. I prefer to be a raiser and not a caller but felt I needed to get some chips and gamble a little (you have to gamble a little in a no limit tourney right?)
In retrospect, I should have stuck to my tight stratedgy and see if I could claw my way back in. (in another tourney, I was down to $200 in chips with 13 players left with chip counts of most players being > $4k. I clawed back and finished fifth, so I know it can work. I guess I just got impatient here.
I like your play. You sound like you had a pretty good read on his style
What was his position? Anway, if he's button or right off.
I think it is automatic you raise all in.
I like this bet against your opponent, "the chip leader". He's TRYING TO SCARE YOU! If it where anyone else, I would consider a fold. A nice opportunity to double. Good play, IMO
that is all,
danny boy :o)
If the big blind didn't represent such a large fraction of your stack, I would advocate folding. Here, you've already got over 22% of your chips in the big blind, plus there is the dead small blind. To play all-in here (which is where you'll end up if you do play), you'll put up T1050 to win T1800. You're getting close to 2:1 odds in a spot where you think you may be a 4:1 favorite (if he has an underpair), but where you'll often be just a slight favorite (as you were with 77 vs. J9). Unless there is a pretty high chance you're facing an overpair, then a call is almost certain here.
If your stack had been 1500 or more, after folding, then I would fold. If your stack had been big enough that he would likely fold to a reraise, then that would be the play.
Although it's very unlikely to work, in this spot you should just call, not raise your last 150. Bet that 150 on the flop. There is some very small chance he will fold here if he misses, so let him do it. Me, I wouldn't fold 23o if I were him for 150 more, but some folks would. I've even seen people fold hands that contained an overcard in them.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Posted by: travis bickle (dannyh98@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 14 May 2001, at 10:00 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 May 2001, at 9:08 a.m.
I'm in the late stages of a NLHE tournament, 15 players left, 9 places pay, I have T6000 in the BB after paying the 1600 BB, we are 7 handed, only about 2 other stacks shorter than mine remain. Antes and blinds just went up and are costing me roughly T3000 per round. Mid position player, who is, as tournament players go, somewhat loose-passive, calling raises with weak hands, and has about T8000, makes it 4500 to go. I have K-10 offsuit, and it's folded to me.
Should I call, raise, or fold?
Results to be posted shortly.
I think a fold is in order. It sounds like he is not on a steal, probably a big Ace. Still time to find a hand IMO.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
If you wait out the small blind as well you will have 5200 left which is _just_ enough to make a decent raise with 800-1600 blinds. I would probably pass this, especially against a "passive" player. You're going to have to do something before the BB hits you again but you should be able to find a better spot than this.
Andy.
Thanks for your comments. I posted this message because I think the play of my Big Blind has been a hole in my game lately.
Contrary to the advice others gave, I called, caught a top-pair 10 on the flop, and got beat and knocked out by Q-Q. I don't know what it is about having those chips out there already, but sometimes it seems to turn my usual tight play into a gambler's mentality. I've been busted out of so many tournaments the past two months defending my blind, or trying to steal with poor hands.
I think part of the problem is that in the local AZ tournaments, the blinds and antes go up so quickly, doubling every 20 minutes, and I tend to gamble more when I feel that blind pressure coming, but before it actually gets there.
Thanks again for the comments ... on we go!
I would fold but I would plan to go all-in before it gets back to your BB. I would not call a raise with KTo.
Ken Poklitar
Tourney at the Luxor this weekend, down to myself and two others. I'm at ~T3000, one's at ~T4000 and another's got enough for the BB (which he'll get next hand).
I'm in the SB and it's at 400-800 blinds NL hold'em. Dealer folds, I see 4-4 in my hand. The BB is a very aggressive woman that I've been with for most of the tournament. She will overplay her hands quite a bit, but it works because she's pushed quite a few out of pots. The other player seems the exact opposite. Very passive and has just been sitting around watching as everyone else eliminates themselves.
So I think for a bit and push in 2000. She doesn't hesitate in calling. Flop comes down A-X-4. I made my set. I check, she pushes all in and I make an easy call.
She has QJs and gets runner runner flush to push me out of the tournament. Now, naturally I'm upset at this 22-1(?) shot coming in for her. But what I'm wondering is if I played it correctly.
Other options would be 1) going all in before the flop 2) betting, rather than checking, the flop.
I seriously don't think either of these options would work against this opponent because of her aggressive nature, but I think that betting the flop maaaaaaaybe would have worked because checking showed weakness and she wanted to push my out.
Of course, as ridiculous as it sounds, I can fold the 4-4 and rather than butt heads against the chip leader and hope that, after the next hand, I can assure myself at least second place.
Opinions?
A few questions:
Q1) What's the payout? I seem to remember the Luxor tournament being a shootout... is that right? I also seem to remember it being a $25 buy-in with like a $1250 prize. If you are in the money already that's another story.
Q2) What's your goal? To win the tournament? To make a few bucks? I think your mindset makes the decision for you.
Q3) Difference between 2nd and 3rd prizes?
IMO, I think playing 4-4 here is a big mistake, because if you miss you cripple yourself or put yourself out of the tournament. Most likely, she's got 2 overcards to your pair which makes you a tiny favorite at best. If I'm playing, I probably fold and let her eliminate your other competitor, but hindsight is 20/20.
If you are going to play it, I think you have to put your stack in preflop and commit to it. Your opponent being aggressive with QJs will probably follow you anyway. If you pull it off, you are 6:1 chip leader, if not you bust out.
Nice flop, being a 7.5:1 dog to flop a set, you get what you want. For her to draw out is not 22:1 though.
2 spades in her hand, 3 handed game, one spade on flop. of unseen cards on turn and river she is as follows to catch runner runner
10/40 (6 cards in hands, plus 1 burn , plus 3 flop, plus 1 burn) * 9/38 = approx 1/16 or 6.66% chance to catch her flush. The odds are clearly not there for her to justify a call. She just hit a long shot on you.
Bad fortune Dan, these are my thoughts based on your post. If I'm sitting in the game in your position... who knows what I would do? Actually being there is much different than seeing the box score. These forums are the perfect opportunity to be that "armchair QB", I don't know what's going on in the actual game, but it's easy to just read the "Cliff notes" and say well... I would've done that differently.
Given the circumstances and your choices in the game, you gave yourself the best chance to win the tournament. That's all you can ask of yourself.
Best wishes, Mike
probably not a good play, but sometimes in that situation I like to make a small raise to see what it stirs-may get some folds, may have to chuck after raise..but it suggests I have some big cards, which may lead others to a bad decision. Jim
Nah, this was a pretty small tournament. Something around 30 people with top prize being $240. Not a huge sum, but certainly not bad for 2 hours worth of work. My take for third was $75 and second place got something like $120-$140. It paid out to 7 places, with #7 getting his entry fee back.
So basically if I had folded, there was a 50% chance I'd increase my payout by around 70% after the next hand. But if I won this hand there was a near certainty I'd win the tournament and triple my earnings.
Had I gone all in, I still think she would have called. She had a good hand and was aggressive enough that I believe she would have done it. I mean, she had nothing on the flop and she still pushed 1000 bucks in hoping to get me off my hand. Now, as for calling her BB, that certainly is an option. But I'm sure I'd have checked my set, she'd have pushed all in, I'd have called, and then been handed my hat as she hit her flush on the river.
Maybe there truly wasn't a way to win this hand. Maybe it was best to fold the hand out pre-flop. But to give up 1/7 of my stack to the chip leader not knowing when I'll get another playable hand just doesn't strike me as right.
You know 7 cards: your 2, her 2 and the flop, meaning there are 45 cards remaining. She has two suited cards and there is one on the flop (assuming he didn't have the suited four), leaving 10 remaining.
Thus the odds on the turn card being suited are 10:45. Assuming it hits, the river card odds are 9:44.
Total chances 90/1980, which is 1:22, or odds of 21-1 against.
Don't forget the burn cards in your calculations. that's where the discrepancy occurs.
Mike
The button player gets a hand dealt to him too. I forgot to add that. Based on the cards that he actually "sees" a 21:1 shot is correct. Based on all cards used, the actual odds to suck out will be somewhere in between both of our calculations.
Even so, the odds for her fall in the "totally suck" category.
Mike
But those cards don't matter. I didn't see them and so the dealer's hand could be any two cards. Same with the three burn cards. If you don't know what they are, they can't be used in the calculation because all you end up with is randomness. Unless, of course, you calculate every possible holding of those five cards, which would actually bring you right back where you started.
In the end, she did suck out on me. Naturally I'm upset by this, but I wanted to learn what I could have done better in this situation so that I lessen the chances of having to deal with it in the first place.
BTW, she was actually glad she sucked out on me. She told me it was justified considering what I did to her earlier in the tournament. I had pocket threes and kept trying to push her off her hand (which I knew wasn't much). She didn't budge. Finally a 3 came on the river, filling me up. She called me down and showed me her pocket 4s. Granted, there was no earthly reason for her to stay with me all that way with so many overcards on the table, but I did, in fact, suck out on her.
Anyway, maybe she was just out for blood. Well, she got it
Dan wrote: "Of course, as ridiculous as it sounds, I can fold the 4-4 and rather than butt heads against the chip leader and hope that, after the next hand, I can assure myself at least second place."
DING. DING. DING. We have a winner.
Under these circumstances, given her aggression and position, this is the play.
After that flop, you wanted her to call, not fold. You also didn't want her to suck out, but if she had showed you her hand and said she'd do whatever you told her to do, I would hope you would tell her to call.
Muck it, let the short-stack go broke, and then take her on with hands like 44.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Two questions. What's the payout structure ? The second is less easy. Does she know that she "shouldn't" butt heads with _you_ at this point ? Basically meaning if you raise, is she going to drop a lot of hands that are basically 50-50 with you, or even some medium pairs ?
From your general description I would guess not, but you'd have to be there to know for sure. I think that's key to the whole question, is she trying to wait for the small stack to be eliminated or does she want to mix it with you. If the former, there are a lot of ways to play the hand, you can make a move at the pot either pre-flop or on the flop (even if you don't flop a set). If the latter, a fold is probably in order and is certainly not "ridiculous" in any case.
In general, if your big-stack opponent is waiting to get heads-up then you bluff more but slow down when she plays back, if she wants to mix it then bet and raise for value more and bluff (a lot) less. Of course you're limited by the very large blinds here as well, but I'm sure you get the idea.
Andy.
To me, the preflop options seem to be: 1) Go all in and let her make the decision. 2) Call and hope for a four
At this point in a tournament (or anytime playing short handed) I am trying to semi-bluff steal as much as possible. With 44, there are really only two outs but it is a small favorite against everything but a bigger pair and the large suited connectors - it loses ~52% of the time to QJs.
These are the decisions that lose tournaments - if I don't get hands like these during a tournament, I seem to last longer (AQ, AJ, Q10o, K10o, QJo, etc.)
An important note here is the payout structure, what is the difference between 2nd and 3rd? If it is significant you may wish to fold.
IMO in a three player game, I go all in with 44 and try to steal her 800 (odds are very good that she has nothing). If called, I am still a small favorite most of the time.
I think overall if you are called by a reasonable player you are a dog in this situation. Yes, they may call with AK, AQ etc. but many of their calls come from overpairs. You are only a slight favorite vs. the overcards and a big dog to the overpairs. I would certainly fold preflop.
I agree if you are going to raise then go all-in. It just seems that the BB is aggressive and would probably call with many marginal cards and QJs is certainly better than marginal. Any anything that you are called with you will be at best a 50/50 shot.
I agree with Greg and would fold.
Against someone who might not raise if I just complete the bet then just calling might be okay but it sounds like this player would raise so fold looks good.
Ken Poklitar
I definately bet this flop substantially and hope she calls. Checking is a real bad move hear. If you bet she lays down her hand, if she calls, she probably has Ax and you are in great shape. In this spot I think you are looking for a call and will get it if she had the ace. I don't like giving a free card here, there's already some booty in the pot, so if she folds to your bet, no biggie, and you go to work on the small stack.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
since you say next big blind poster will br all in, seems much much better for you to just fold unless you have real powerfull hand (you do not). also remember what others have posted - any pair is not much better than even money against overcards, adding her straight and flush possibilities, you are the underdog.
several postings made just after your original post show a lack of understanding of how to figure odds on the outs. burn cards mean nothing, nor do other players---#of cards you see, subtracted from 52 (the deck) equals # of UNseen cards--those unseen cards are composedof cards which will not help plus the "outs"--compare those two numbers AND remember if there are yet 2 cards to come that doubles the value of the outs.
back to your first question "is there anyway---" best answer is that there are two ways (1) SLIM and (2) NONE goodluck Jim
First of all, I'm not sure if this is the correct forum, so correct me if its supposed to be somewhere else and I'll re-post it.
I just left Binions as they ended day one and the following is what I was able to observe (feel free to correct any errors if I have made a mistake).
No repeat for Jesus.
TJ is out
Noah Furlong is out
Annie Duke is out. I overheard her talking to D. Neagreanu and she said a guy had caught aces three times at her table and she did'nt believe he had them the third time and went all in against him and lost. (sorry, I didnt hear what her hand was)
I was able to see some chip tally cards and or chip stacks as the tourney ended for day one.
I believe his name is David Pham. He has 56,000 (+ or - $500).
David Skalansky appears to have around 16-17k (feel free to correct me if your reading this)
I didnt see Mason.
Scotty Nguyen looked like he had some chips and seemed to be in good spirits and will be playing on day two.
I saw Johnny Chans Chip count, it was $5,600.00
I think Kevin McBride is still in, no idea how many chips he has.
I was viewing a table that had a guy named Mike Matusow and a friend of his named Lee. I did not recognize any of the other players, but I did get to see some interesting play. The following are hands I observed:
I noticed that Mike Matusow made a questionable play when the OBVIOUS FISH bet all-in of about $3500 on a flop of J/x/x with two hearts. He called the 3500 and lost to J9 offsuit. I overheard Mike say he had pocket 8's. I'm shocked he made this call on a pot that was'nt significant in size against a weak player, who almost certainly had him beat. I can only assume he thought he was on a flush draw. I don't try to push around weak players and/or calling stations with marginal hands like this, but what do I know?
In another hand, Mike Matusow checks a flop with a king, bets approx. 2k when the turn shows an Ace. He is called by one opponent. The river is a deuce. The board is K/4/x?/A/2. Mike checks and his opponent bets 4k. Mike is'nt happy but calls. He is even more unhappy when he is shown 3/5 OFFSUIT!!!! He was pissed. I'm shocked he made the call. Mike had K/10.
He was on tilt and his buddy (Lee ????)knew it and decided to try and push him around (no soft playing friends, eh?). Anyway, Lee limps UTG and Mike raises about 1000 or so on the button. All fold to UTG (Lee??) who reraises 4k. Mike can't believe Lee is re-raising him. Mike plays with his chips, stacking and restacking them until he finally goes all in for another 7k. Lee ponders quite a while and finally folds. Mike claims he had KK, Lee says he had AK. They are really haggling each other claiming they had all sorts of hands. An hour or so later, I hear Mike say he didnt have anything and knew Lee couldnt call unless he had AA or KK and Mike did'nt believe he had them. Sheesh, he's got some cohones.
A few hands later they get into again and Lee bets around $3500 on a river with the highest card on the board being a Jack. After MUCH hesitation and chip stacking/restacking Mike is able to finally fold. He is dying to know what Lee had but Lee wont say, so Mike says he did'nt have anything when he raised Lee all in earlier. Lee claims he had trip jacks He never showed, so I'll never know. It was fun to watch them banter back and forth though.
A few hands later, they get into it again and with a king high flop, Mike bets and Lee raises, mike calls. the turn is a Jack and both check. The river is a blank and Mike checks, Lee bets $3500 and Mike calls quickly and wins after showing AJ. These guys are on another level!
Lee goes on tilt and tries to limp in to almost every other pot. When he is'nt raised out of the pot preflop, he tries to bluff and is picked off. He finally goes all in with KJ in the SB for around $1200. The BB calls and wins with pocket 5's and Lee is out.
The guy who had 3/5 offsuit that beat beat Mike earlier called a $600 bet from the button with 7/8 of hearts. The flop came 7/x/x of hearts and he checks to the raiser who bets 3k. 7/8 check raises another 8k. The button calls all in and shows As/Ah. A heart hit the turn and pocket aces bite the dust to crazy 3/5 offsuit man. This play made sense, I still have no idea why he called 2k to hit a gut shot earlier.
I was able to see a players' cards almost every hand. He almost never raised and limped with everything. He limped with JJ and was raised 1200 by another player and called preflop. The flop came Q/x/x and he checked to the raiser who bet another $1500. The JJ reraised all in and the raiser folded quickly and flipped his AQ face up in the muck. I would have a hard time folding here, but I guess he figured that he had a set or had slowplayed aces.
The AQ man started to play pretty aggressive from here and limped then re-raised Mike all in when Mike bet $1200 from the button. Mike folded pretty quickly. AQ man showed his queens and Mike told him that was a terrible play as the only hand he would call him with would be aces or maybe kings. Mike said he had AQ.
AQ man said "Mike, desparate men do desparate things". Mike just shook his head.
Mike had said previous to this hand that he was done for the night and was happy that he had re-built his stack and met his chip accumulation goals for day one. He said he had never had this many chips in any other WSOP he had played. I believe he ended the day with around $21k.
Its entertaining as hell watching these guys play, especially when you can sneak a peak at their cards and see how the hands are being played.
Having said that, it reiterates how interesting it would be to watch these tourneys if they would televise them while exposing all the players hole cards for the audience to observe. Wishful thinking eh?
Maybe one day.....
Devilfish is out too, by the way...
Mike Matusow came to my table last year at the TOC, second day. When he got there I had about 60,000 and was the chip leader at the table and Mike had just over 10,000. In the Omaha round, he went on a streak where he won all or part of 11 hands in a row and became the table chip leader. Greg joined our table at some point and my remember this. Mike plays a lot of hands and can be very aggressive.
JohnnyD
do I remember.
Here is a hand in the middle/end of that rush.
I am in the big blind. Mike raises in early-middle position. All fold to me. I call with Ac23c7.
Flop is Ad4c7c. I have top 2 pair, nut flush draw, and nut low, though I have no counterfeit protection for my low. I bet, Mike raises, I call (stop-and-go play).
Turn is Jh. I bet, Mike raises, I 3-bet, he 4-bets, I call. River is 9h. I check-and-call.
Mike turns over A239s. He had no flush outs, no high outs except for the 9h and and 9d. Basically, he hit a 2-outer to steal half the pot form me. The cash equivalent of the chips in that pot was over $50,000, so he sucked out on me for $25,000. I missed the money by a few spots a couple of hours later.
I'm not bitter.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
KILL KILL KILL ;-)
My big hand against him during that rush was when I had A2xx with the Ace suited in diamonds with one of the other cards. The flop comes three cards eight or lower with two diamonds. I had the nut low and nut diamond draw. The turn gives me a pair. I'm betting and Mike is raising all the way. We started with a number of players, but Mike has raised all of them out of the pot and it's just me and him seeing the river. The river is a two, counterfiting my low and giving me two small pair. Mike has A3xx now giving him the nut low and he has two small pairs, but just larger than mine. He was raising all the way with nothing. That was a huge pot and would have put me over 100k in chips and one of the leaders, but instead it took me down where I was just an average stack at the table.
JohnnyD
nt
She had pocket Jacks in the small blind against the guy who had pocket Aces for the third time that round. He had just busted TJ on the previous hand with KK against AA. She raised his bb, he reraised and she set him in, thinking heh couldn't have AA again. He did and she hit the rail.
My buddy who was playing at the table nest to him relayed this to me. The same buddy got busted by none other than Sklansky himself. Unraised pot with 6 limpers and a flop of KJT and two clubs. My buddy bets 1000 from early position with a set of tens. DS moves all-in and a weak player with a big stack calls. My buddy figured Sklansky was peddling the nuts but decides to gamble for his last 3k since the pot is laying him nearly 3 to one. He also didn't put the caller on KJ, JJ, or KK; and figured him for a flush draw.
Turn and river blank off and DS takes it with AQ. The other braindead guy had Q9 and was drawing to an Ace for a split. Guess he didn't recognize David as that was a terrible call against his all-in raise.
Mr.7,how about any of the alumni
n/t
After day 1.
Chip leader - $79k+
Sklansky -$20k+.
Go gettum David!
Vince
The numbers came from Pokerpages.com
David at the end of day 2 has $12K+ -
141 players remaining. David near bottom of stacks. Believe it or not that's good position for David. He plays a short stack extremely well. Good Luck David.
Numbers from rgp - Authourandy (Andy Glazer).
vince
Vince wrote: "Believe it or not that's good position for David. He plays a short stack extremely well."
I believe you that he plays a short stack well. Yet, why is this a "good" position for him? It's not like his chances of cashing/winning are higher with 12K than if he had 30K, right?
;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
who says americans don't understand sarcasm?
Me! Me! I don't understand sarcasm at all.
Why do you ask?
I was not being sarcastic. the answer to Fossilman's question is ...maybe. there might be something to having to play your best when your back is to the wall. Although I'd rather he had 30K.
vince
and thus if David was chip leader, it would be bad!!!! Jim
"and thus if David was chip leader, it would be bad!!!! Jim "
now thats sarcasm,
and,
that is all,
danny boy :o)
if Brimley offered. Willie has ~30K.
Go David!
KJS
Ok, let me give you a little background into my style of play and personality. I tend to be conservative by nature (former CPA, currently a home builder) and that translates into tight, conservative play at the table.
I play pretty straight forward poker and am aggresive when I have a hand. However, unless I get cards, I never seem to build a substaintial amount of chips to bring to the final table (assuming I get there). So, I have decided to try to find opportunities to make special plays, be more aggressive in unique situations and find ways to win chips in areas I would have never thought about before.
One advantage I have is that I have an almost perfect recollection of people's faces (not names though) and how they played against me. I am amazed that I come in and out of town and people I have played with and talked to have no idea who I am and how I play. I know them, how they play, how they played me and certain characteristics of their style of play, etc. but they dont know me from adam.
I was able to play with some of these guys on my current trip to Lost Wages.
Please critique how I played the following hands in a limit tourney at the Mirage tonight. The reasoning behind how I played these hands was a combination of trying to be more of a fox, apply what I knew about my opponents from past experience and apply certain moves based on how I observed certain opponents playing at my table.
The tourney is limit holdem and all of the hands occured after the break when no one could rebuy.
Hand #1: We have just finished the first break and have played for about thirty minutes. The blinds are $50/100 and I have about $1000. I need to build some chips so I can be aggressive, build my stack and steal pots. I have played tight to this point and shown good hands, so I feel that the table knows I play good cards. So I am two off the button and try to steal the blinds with 7/8 offsuit. No go, the player to my left calls and the BB calls. The flop comes Q/2/2 (one club). I bet and the player to my left calls and the BB folds. The turn is a nine of clubs. I give up the bluff and check. He checks. A king of club hits the river, so I bet into him knowing I have an easy fold if he raises and can show how nutty I must be if I am called. He folds!!! Yes! I like my play here because I would have wimped out here in the past and was able to win chips with no cards because I played the player and the situation, not just my cards. Am I crazy?
Hand 2(blinds are $100/200, I have around $1300):
I am to the left of a player that I have played against in the past. He has no idea who I am, but I know him and how he likes to steal and be aggressive with crap! He is three off the button and I am two off the button. All fold, he raises. I look down and see pocket deuces. Normally I fold here, but I see this as an opportunity to be foxy, so I three bet him to get heads up and set up an opportunity to take it on the flop if he misses. The flop comes K/K/x. He checks, I bet. He folds. Hell, maybe I had the best hand anyway.
Hand 3(blinds are $100/200, I have about $2100):
The chip leader is UTG and I have noticed that he is raising with marginal hands from early position in an effort to steal or is just insane. I think he is a good player so I rule out insane. All fold to me and I have pocket 8's(I am one off the button). I figure him to have A/crap and think this is an opportunity to be foxy. I decide to three bet to isolate and plan to fold if an ace flops and he bets. The flop comes Q/J/x, two clubs. He checks and I bet. He hesitates and then calls. I'm not sure exactly where Im at here, but bet again when he checks to me after the third club comes on the turn. I figure I'll fold if he check raises me and check it down if he checks the river. He calls. A club hits the river and he bets into me. I call and he turns over Ac/10h and wins with the nut flush. (I had the 8 of clubs by the way). I don't like my call here as I was almost assuredly beat. I could have saved $400 and had a little life left in me. Other than my call on the end, I like my play here. I read him correctly, had him the whole way and would have almost doubled up if he didnt pass me on the river. Another problem with this play is that I made it against a deep stack that knew I could'nt hurt him. He gambled for a gutshot on the flop, picked up the nut flush draw on the turn and got there on the river. I like his play too, I just wish it did'nt work!
I was down to about $500 after this hand and pissed it away on the next hand with A/10 offsuit, LOL! I have had success with a small stack and regret not saving the $400 call, not calling a raise with A/10 and attempting to fight back in a better situation.
All advice, flames and critiques appreciated (ok, maybe not the flames).
thanks
most of us know benefit of aggressive play--keep working on that. about the hand where you gave away the $400--possibly you should have saved the bet before that--you have idrntified him as good player, so after his call on flop, why not give him credit for something? not saying yhe bet was wrong, just possibly too aggressive. concerning rest of your post--I like it. good luck, Jim
your WSOP report stated that T.J. was out. Which reminds me of something I wanted to say to you--I know him and believe i am correct when I tell you he credits his success to his remarkable ability to recall other plays actions & reactions---thus, your recall may lead you to bigger & better victories! Jim
Hey, thx for the input.
Here is why I bet the turn.
Typically if I check in this spot, I will almost always get bet into on the river (which is sometimes what I want so I can pick off a bluff). My concern was that I may be in the lead, my hand was vulnerable/weak and I did'nt want to give a free card to beat me. I felt it was likely he would check to me on the river anyway, so the cost would be the same if I check the turn and call the river. At least in this case, I have an opportunity to get him to fold on the turn and maximize my return if he misses his draw and/or when I have him beat. Theoretically, the cost should be the same. (Of course thats not how it worked here--LOL, so much for theories)
If he had not hit the flush, I am almost positive that is what would have happened.
What do you think about that reasoning?
can't fault that Jim
You're thinking about the right things. Only problem is, you're playing the wrong game. It's too easy for everyone to call you in limit.
Try some big-bet tournaments if you haven't already. It is much easier to win pots without cards if you pick the right spots.
NB My limit experience is negligible so I am prepared to stand corrected - although that's nothing new !
Andy.
1) You know the table better than I do but stealing 2 off the button with 78o is risky at best. I would rather have some high card when stealing from 2 off.
2) I don't like spending 1/2 of your 1300 chips on 22.
3) I like the play of this hand preflop and on the flop. I think I check the turn. I doubt he is bluffing on the river but the pot is fairly big so it is hard to say.
Ken Poklitar
.. am I the only one that thought that Scotty Nguyen went *way* too far against Phil Hellmuth? I understand that psychology is part of poker, but that doesn't mean that there are limits. If Phil Hellmuth had started throwing racial slurs at Scotty Nguyen and threatened to rape his wife, for instance, I would think that, too, would be "crossing the line".
These guys are supposed to be ambassadors of poker, and I would be embarassed as a poker player to have Scotty Nguyen as my ambassador if he insists on going on like he did.
However, in today's smash-mouth, trash-talking society, maybe *I'm* the oddity.
Just food for thought.
M.
someone said(of what happened) that "what goes around, comes around" obviously meaning that Phil had at times taunted others....not knowing more of this,best I withold judgement. Jim
Actually, they talked yesterday and got everything squared away. In fact they were at the same table at one point and were very friendly with each other.
Dru
They know each other well enough, the conversation is really between them, we shouldn't even be listening.
But TRASHTALK (tm) is going to be a part of poker.
What happened?
are listed on pokerpages.com
Sklansky still alive, as are Gabe Kaplan and Wilford Brimley.
THRU DAY ONE:
Ronald W. Miller $79,900 Henry K. Nowakowski $61,125 Young Phan $56,650 Earle (Skip) Wilson $55,275 Eracles Panayiotou $52,925 James Cleveland Haley $50,375 Allen Cunningham $50,000 Sam Rarha $49,975 Larry M. Beilfuss $45,650 Alfred J. Decarolis $44,175 Hasan Habib $42,950 Steve Riehle $41,025 David Benyamine $41,025 John J. Ilick $41,000 Harry Greenstein $40,550 Jac Arama $40,125 Diego Cordovez $39,825 Carl McKelvey $38,625 Melvin Wiener $38,000 Gene Malatesta $37,475 Dewey Tomko $36,725 Nicholas S. Dileo $36,625 Jacob Cohen-Nissan $35,625 Julio S. Anicete $35,025 Mhamed Ibrahim $34,250 Teddy Tuile $33,675 William L. Thomas $33,075 Ted R. Grose $32,275 John K. Robertson $30,650 Dolph Arnold $30,650 Joseph E. Brandenburg $30,550 Gustano/Gus Echeverri $29,675 John Harvey Inashima $29,425 Howard H. Lederer $29,000 Melvyn (Mel) Judah $28,875 Daniel L. (Dan) Alspach $28,725 Kathy Liebert $28,575 Carlos Mortenseh $28,375 Steven Vigdor $28,350 Charles Glorioso $28,300 Klein Bach $28,125 Hassan Kamosi $27,950 Neel Chudasama $27,950 Reagan Silber $27,550 John Kabbaj $27,350 KC Kasttle $27,025 Ash Pervatz $26,800 Phil Hellmuth $26,700 James T (Jim) Allen $26,675 Tom Schmit $26,500 Jason Viriyayuthakorn $26,450 Sam Haddah $26,400 Marc L. Durand $26,300 Jeff Shulman $26,000 Earl Sr. Kim $26,000 Simon D. Scobietrumper $25,800 Jeff Stoff $25,650 Bill O'Connor $25,625 Richard Turner $25,575 Fred David $25,525 Phil S. Gordon $25,400 Paul Phillips $25,150 ----------------------- Others: Barney Boatman $22,725 John Bonetti $22,675 David Pham $22,550 Ian Dobson $20,225 David Sklansky $20,075 Kevin Song $16,650 Scotty Nguyen $15,250 Dan Harrington $14,975 Erik Seidel $14,650 Tom Franklin $11,100 Men Nguyen $10,400 Wilford Brimley $10,150 Daniel Negreanu $9,450 Kevin McBride $6,125
If he did he already busted out.
he played, he's out
can some one please tell me about the tournaments at harrahs in new orleans..the time and dates
It appears the only tournaments they have running right now are on tuesdays and wednesdays. They are 1/2 HE, 1/2 omaha high. Unsure of the fees. They start at 8am. They used to have a HE tourny on mondays, but that seems to have dried up. This is all based on info from @3 weeks ago and may have changed since. Your best bet is to call the card room (can get the # from there web sight). Good luck Derek
thanks,,ive had no luck with there site,,guess ill still check them out when im there,,
Ok, this aint from the WSOP but from the next most prestigious event in Poker - last week's early Thursday morning Pokerpages freeroll Round 1 tourney :) Nevertheless, I'd really like feedback from you guys on how to play this hand and situation.
Very early NL stages, blinds still $2 & $5. I've been sitting tight and have $313 of my starting $320 left after posting my $2 & $5 blinds. Only saw one flop so far from the BB which missed badly and I mucked.
A few hands later I am in seat 7, 3 off the button. UTG limps, seat 4 limps, seat 6 limps, I limp, cutoff limps, button (who's one of those loosey-goosey pokerpages types who plays and chases every hand and is chip leader with over $600) raises $15, both blinds call and all other limpers call, myself included.
Pot is $160 now preflop and I have $293 left.
I have Ah 10h
Flop comes 5c 8h 9h giving me 2 overcards, the nut flush draw (and a backdoor str8 draw).
All check to me, I check (mistake???), cutoff checks, and button bets the pot $160, creating a $320 pot
All fold to me...
What to do, what to do??? (and why?)
Also, should I have raised preflop and should I have come out betting on the flop or is it better to try get a free card here?
Thanks all.
You have Ace high, nothing more. This early in the tourney I'd fold. Although you may have odds, I'm not very good at the odds, but I sense you are at least even money to win the hand. You may even be the favorite? Any comments from the math whizzes are appreciated.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
I would have lead the betting on the flop. Although the pot is 160, since this is pokerpages I would bet 80 and see what happens.
The only hands you are very much behind are a set, 2 pair, straight or AA. Even on those hands you still hit your flush 1/3 of the time. So against most hands you are probably a slight dog or a slight favorite. Is it time to gamble? If you decide to go for it, I would tend to call and bet out on the turn.
I would have played preflop the same as you did. I would limp and call the smallish raise. I wouldn't re-raise.
Ken Poklitar
From the Andy Glazer WSOP report: "Reagen Silber, sitting in the nine seat, opened a pot for a raise to $1,200 under the gun, at a point when the blinds were $100-200. Hellmuth put $2,900 into the pot, a raise of $1,700, and Silber, after about ten seconds deliberation, moved his $15,000 stack all-in. Hellmuth had just about that much left in front of him. Hellmuth tilted his head sideways, looked at Silber for about 30 seconds, picked up his hand, flipped his two kings face up on the table, and said, "OK, I give up, show me two aces." Silber had AA."
Would anyone be tempted to flat call the preflop raise and try to trap Hellmuth here, given that Hellmuth is one of the most aggressive players in the world?
I would think so. In no limit it is important to "milk" your opponents. A reraise was probably appropriate, but one for much less money. This idea is especially true early in the tournament where you are still using standard ring game strategy rather than tournament type plays.
Showing the Aces here seems plain stupid to me.
First, you never want to let a guy know he made a great laydown.
Second, you don't want to give away free information on how you play.
Am I missing something? You might show your cards to set the guy up later. However, that doesn't seem to be the case here.
If you cram any more ego in PH's head it may explode. Maybe that it what he thought would happen.
Unless he just wanted to enable himself to steal more often. Maybe he figures, rightly or wrongly, that if he shows the AA here, then his raises will get more respect and he'll be able to steal more blinds and/or pots later.
However, it was probably just a feeling of a social obligation, since Phil showed his hand first.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Destroy Phil's mind by mucking unseen and sying...U had me beat ;-)
THAT SCREAMS of trap the wiseguy.....think, get nervous, act, then smooth call.
IMO he should have re-raised about 7700 making it about 6000 for Hellmuth to call. If they both have about 15000 and there is 4400 in the pot, then Phil is getting the worst of it if he calls this bet. There aren’t many flops the AA can get away from here if Phil flops a set and Phil may decide come over the top right now. I think simply calling the raise would be a mistake.
Silber made a huge mistake by showing his pocket Aces. By not showing them, he doesn't give away information. Also, consider the player he is up against. If you don't give Phil the satisfaction of laying down a good hand, he'll never know if he made the right decision. He's the type of player that could go on semi-tilt with his huge ego!
Yes, showing the aces was a terrible move. He probably got caught up in the moment.
That would just have to eat at Phil, not knowing. Now that he saw, he realizes he's on his A game and will be pretty tough at this table.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
I agree with Tom Haley. My thought would be to make raise big enough to get Phil commited to the hand, but not so big as to keep him from calling. Jim
I am going to keep posting this same message until someone tells me where I can get the TEARS structure...is it a download, is it free, is it a program...our home casino is hosting a big tourney(for us its big) and they want to use the structure, but cant find it....HELP US PLEASE!!!
www.geocities.com/texstears
has some information. It used to have more. But at least it's a starting point.
JohnnyD
I've seen a link on pokerpages too, you might look there.
Wanna know how Phil and David did, among others...
there is an update on rgp. Sklansky is out.
Vince
http://www.thegoodgamblingguide.co.uk/spotlight/wsop2001/wsop2001reports_champ.htm#daythree
Regards,
Richard
| Name | Chips | Table | Seat | Chip Pos |
| Henry Nowakowski | $351,000 | 63 | 9 | 1 |
| Stan Schrier | $337,500 | 61 | 9 | 2 |
| Phil Hellmuth | $310,500 | 63 | 7 | 3 |
| Richie Korbin | $234,000 | 61 | 7 | 4 |
| Mike Matusow | $234,000 | 64 | 6 | 5 |
| Jim Bechtel | $223,500 | 61 | 4 | 6 |
| Daniel Negreanu | $217,000 | 60 | 1 | 7 |
| Steve Guiberson | $203,000 | 64 | 9 | 8 |
| Tony D | $195,500 | 61 | 2 | 9 |
| Phil Gordon | $195,000 | 61 | 5 | 10 |
| Kevin Song | $187,000 | 64 | 1 | 11 |
| Gene Malatesta | $167,500 | 63 | 5 | 12 |
| Steve Riehle | $167,000 | 63 | 1 | 13 |
| Gustavo Echerenni | $164,000 | 63 | 2 | 14 |
| Scott O'Brien | $159,500 | 64 | 8 | 15 |
| Arturi Diaz | $155,500 | 62 | 9 | 16 |
| Chris Bjorin | $154,500 | 60 | 5 | 17 |
| Allen Cunningham | $144,000 | 64 | 5 | 18 |
| Kevin Keller | $141,000 | 62 | 1 | 19 |
| David Pham | $139,500 | 60 | 9 | 20 |
| Larry Wood | $138,000 | 63 | 6 | 21 |
| Salim Batshon | $125,500 | 60 | 7 | 22 |
| Dan Alspach | $125,000 | 60 | 2 | 23 |
| Mike Sexton | $122,000 | 62 | 7 | 24 |
| Aaron Katz | $121,500 | 63 | 4 | 25 |
| John Esposito | $118,500 | 61 | 6 | 26 |
| Mel Wiener | $104,000 | 64 | 2 | 27 |
| Pete Kaufman | $103,500 | 64 | 4 | 28 |
| Dewey Tomko | $95,000 | 60 | 8 | 29 |
| Alex Brenes | $93,500 | 62 | 6 | 30 |
| John Farley | $93,500 | 64 | 7 | 31 |
| John Inashima | $90,500 | 62 | 5 | 32 |
| Carlos Mortensen | $89,500 | 62 | 2 | 33 |
| Charles Gloioso | $76,500 | 62 | 4 | 34 |
| Carl McKelvey | $76,500 | 63 | 8 | 35 |
| Alex Dietrich | $61,000 | 62 | 8 | 36 |
| Don Barton | $57,500 | 60 | 3 | 37 |
| Mike Magee | $55,000 | 60 | 6 | 38 |
| Bill Gazes | $53,000 | 61 | 1 | 39 |
| Billy Baxter | $48,000 | 61 | 3 | 40 |
| Bueno Patrick | $48,000 | 64 | 3 | 41 |
| Harry TDomas | $46,000 | 62 | 3 | 42 |
| Barny Boatman | $40,000 | 61 | 8 | 43 |
| Mike May | $40,000 | 63 | 3 | 44 |
| Bill StroTDers | $28,000 | 60 | 4 | 45 |
Phil Hellmuth will win with Mike Matusow, Jim Bechtel, Daniel Negreanu and Kevin Song giving him competition at the end.
JohnnyD
I'm rooting for Hellmuth.
Local rebuy tourney, late stages, 2 tables left, last table in the money. I have enough chips to just hang on til the final table, and am planning to play v tight.
First hand, blinds at 400, UTG raises to 2000. I have around 5000 and flat call with AK. One other guy thinks for a REALLY long time then folds. Flop comes all low, other guy goes all-in, I fold, he shows QQ. Guy who thought for ages had AK too.
Next hand, I have AK suited and go all in for 3000, not particularly wanting a call. Next player goes all-in too, everyone else folds. We flip our cards and he has AQ to my AK. He says 'It's yours' - board comes with two queens and I'm out.
When I think about it, I think I should have just folded everything until I was in the money and then started to play. As it turned out it wasn't long til they were down to one table.
Opinions? Thanks.
Daisy,
In my experience AK is the one hand which can be played most differently according to your opponent and the current situation. So it's very hard to answer your first question, it really depends on your opponent. I might be inclined to raise all-in more often than call with players to act behind me, to discourage anyone else from getting involved, but there are various different ways to play it.
In the second case, your play is fine. Bad beat !
"When I think about it, I think I should have just folded everything until I was in the money and then started to play". In general this is not a good idea, tempting as it seems ! With typical prize distributions, 6th-9th get chicken feed and the real money is in the top 3-4 places. If you miss out on good situations close to the money then you are seriously harming your chances of making real £££. Many people do think this way though, and once you identify them you can steal against them with impunity. All this will come with practice.
Hope this helps,
Andy.
Thanks Andy, that does help. I had just moved to that table so didnt know either of my opponents, so no help there.
" With typical prize distributions, 6th-9th get chicken feed and the real money is in the top 3-4 places." I was thinking about this, as although I didnt have a big stack, there were no huge stacks at either table so I was hoping to get closer to the top.
Anyway, only my 4th tourney so next time hopefully I'll do better. By the way, did u see my other post? I was just saying thanks for yr earlier advice and saying I made it to the money last time so it must have worked!
Best wishes Daisy
First hand, I think you either fold or go allin - keep out other players and see all 5 cards.
Here I would have folded, especially since I had no read on UTG. He comes in 5 times BB out of position. That usually signifies a strong hand - AA, KK, or QQ. What can you hope he has that you really want to play against?
I have been rereading T.J.'s no-limit book and he says A,K is way over played and from my understanding of the book he would clearly say fold here.
Second hand was played correctly
I've read TJ's book too, and he's not talking about the kind of action tournaments you get in the UK :-). So many players not only raise in early position with AJ and worse, they'll call the re-raise as well - arghlglhglghgl (that's supposed to be the sound Homer makes when he's drooling).
Keep posting Daisy, let us know how you get on !
Andy.
You are down to the last 3 of a tournament with 2 prizes.
Blinds are currently 2K-4K
Chip leader: ~25K 2nd place: ~10K You: ~5.5K
You are on the button with 2nd place in SB (2K) and chip leader in BB (4K).
You have J9o. SB has become frustrated recently and is not willing to defend his blinds without a real hand. He has just survived an all in on the BB. Chip leader is playing sheriff and trying to end the tournament.
Do you push all in or wait for the BB next and hope for something there?
I went for the push in and lost and am feeling unsure about my decision (to SB who woke up to find QQ).
I would fold. J9o is barely better than an average hand, and beats a random hand just barely over half the time. The big stack big blind is clearly going to call when you go all-in, and (as you learned) you might have to beat both hands if the SB comes in too. In fact, if the prizes go to the bigger stack when 2 players bust out on the same hand, then the SB should call your all-in raise with anything.
If you fold, you will, of course, defend your big blind pretty much no matter what. But, here's when you won't. What if the middle stack raises all-in and is called or reraised by the big stack? Now, you can fold and hope he goes broke first. If anything else happens, you call for your last 1.5K and hope to survive, in which case you can fold your SB and hope that the middle stack goes all-in on one of his blind hands and goes broke.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Heads up how big a favorite is two overcards to two undercards (eg, QJ vs 67).
Roughly a 2-1 favorite depending on suits.
Ken Poklitar
There are only a certain number of basic matchups you can have. It's worth knowing the approximate odds of each. If I get time over the weekend I'll post them.
Andy.
n/t
n/t
Info from pokerpages:
45th place Bill Strothers, 44th place David Pham, 43rd place Harry Thomas, 42nd place Bill Gazes, 41st place Dan Alspach, 40th place Gene Malatesta
These players each receive $20,000, as do the next three to be eliminated. Then the payouts increase. I thought Pham had a decent shot at the final table. Oh well.
No word on any other chip counts...
Also of note:
Someone that started on Table 63 must have a ton of chips now. That table had the most chips to begin with (Nowakowski, Hellmuth, Riehle, Echerenni, Wood, Katz, McKelvey, and May), and Malatesta, who had already been elminated, started the day in 12th chip position ($167.5K).
Someone on Table 60 may be making a run as well. 3 of the 6 eliminated have come from that table, with Pham and Alspach losing $264.5K between them. Others that started there were Negreneau, Bjorin, Batshon, Tomko, Barton, and Magee.
Also, a question for anyone that knows - How do they move players from table to table? Do they wait til 9 players have been eliminated, then combine the 5 tables into 4, or do they try to keep the number of players at each table even (so they'd have 8 at 4 tables and 7 at the 5th right now)? Also, is there any method as to which players they move around, or is it a random draw? Thanks in advance.
39 Mike Magee, 38 Alex Dietrich, 37 Billy Baxter, 36 Bueno Patrick, 35 Pete Kaufman, 34 Gustavo Echerenni
The latest update also mentioned the Hellmuth lost $57,000 to Bjorin when he called Bjorin's all-in bet with A-T. Bjorin had aces.
7 of the 10 smallest stacks at the beginning of the day have been eliminated. Mike May and Barney Boatman, who were tied for the second smallest stack of the beginning of the day ($40,000) are both still alive.
Despite his spectacularly stupid play against Bjorin, Hellmuth managed to keep his head and not blow off his stack, like he's done so often in the past.
Pokerpages is doing a great job. I'd like to know how Song, Bechtel and Cunningham are doing. Boy, imagine a final six with these three, Phil, Daniel and Bjorin!
************(from pokerpages.com****** 3.30pm Day 4 of Final Event. We just reached the 35 minute lunch break. We have lost a few more players and there are now 30 players left. In the last hour Daniel Negreanu has built his stack into a leading $420,000. Phil Hellmuth has just under $400,000. Steve Riehle is close to $350,000 and Stan Schrier around $350,000 too.
33rd place Barny Boatman 32nd place Scott O'Bryan 31st Carl McKelvey
2.30pm Day 4 of Final Event.
Now down to 33 players. Phil Hellmuth just called a $57,000 all in bet by Chris Bjorin. Phil thought for a good 4 minutes before announcing Chris might have two fours and pushed in the $57,000. He turned over Ace, Ten and Chris turned over Aces. The board was no help for Phil and Chris won the pot. 28th through 36th will all receive $30,000
I really don't know how you can say it was a "spectacularly stupid play against Bjorin" by Hellmuth. We only know a small part of the hand. We don't know the blinds, position of the players, how many chips each player had before the start of the hand. We only know one part of the hand plus the result. I agree it was a bad read, but maybe we should give Bjorin some credit.
Ken Poklitar
Sure sounded to me like Bjorin(great player) went all in pre-flop and Hellmuth(great player) called. You're right, knowing the positions and action would be most helpful.
However, AT is a lousy calling hand in this situation & opponent, and certainly didn't warrant a four minute think and the "he might have 4-4" crack, unless Bjorin bet out at a T32 flop.
Props to Phil for keeping his composure, he's going to be top five tomorrow at least, IMO.
A 3-4 hour, no deal, Hellmuth-Negreanu final would be most entertaining and educational, IMO.
........(from pokerpages.com)......
6.00pm Day 4 of Final Event. The main event is now down to 18 players. Now playing $1,500 ante and $3,000 and $6,000 blinds. Seats have just been redrawn and Phil Hellmuth leads the field. He has $650,000 in chips. Phil Gordon is in second position with $600,000. These two have been drawn on the same table. Daniel Negreanu is steady in third spot with $568,000. Then comes Arturo Diaz with 500,000 and Stan Schrier next with $400,000.
30th place Chris Bjorin 29th place Mike Sexton 28th place Mike May 27th place Allen Cunningham 26th place John Esposito 25th place Kevin Keller 24th place Alex Brenes 23rd place Jim Bechtel 22nd place Aaron Katz 21st place Salim Batshon 20th place Kevin Song 19th place Melvin Weiner
How many chips does Dewey Tomko have left?
Forgot about him, he's a major threat. PP isn't giving counts past the top few.
Funny thing about Tomko, when Nolan Dalla published his odds for winning the biggie last month, DanielN posted on RGP that Tomko at 250-1 was the best value. Mike Caro replied that nobody was a value at 250-1! :)
Dewey knows how to play short stacked...250 to one?
Just read Pokerpages update, Dewey has 174K, with twelve players left...
Henry Nowakowski $1,076,000 Carlos Mortensen$873,000 Phil Hellmuth $859,000 Mike Matusow $767,000 Phil Gordon $681,000 Stan Schrier $672,000 Dewey Tomko $467,000 Steve Reihle $407,000 John Inashima $328,000
Obviously, there's a long way to go. Anything can happen; Mortensen, Nowakowski, and Matusow have all won big tourneys before and have plenty of chips, and Tomko & Negreanu will always be threats as long they have chairs; but I have to make Hellmuth almost even money against the field as things now stand.
........(from pokerpages.com).......... 7.45pm Day 4 of Final Event. The remaining 12 players just broke for dinner. In the last hour Phil Hellmuth has moved into a good chip lead. In one of the last hands of the level Phil was on the big blind and Phil Gordon limped in for $10,000 on the button. Phil Hellmuth raised it $40,000 and Gordon called. The flop came with a K,6,9. Both players checked. A deuce on the turn and Phil Gordon checked. Hellmuth bet $60,000 and Gordon raised him $100,000. Hellmuth called. The river was a Jack and both players checked. Hellmuth showed an Ace , Six and Phil Gordon conceded the pot. A Gift for Hellmuth!!!
Players out:
13th place Tony D 14th place Steve Guiberson 15th place Don Barton 16th place John Farley 17th place Richard Korbin 18th place Larry Wood
The final three players out tonight will each receive $63,940 9 players will come back tomorrow for the final table
Chip Counts
Phil Hellmuth $1,056,000 Carlos Mortensen $841,000 Henry Nowakowski $802,000 Stan Schiere $596,000 Steve Reihle $506,000 Phil Gordon $376,000 Arturo Diaz $375,000 Mike Matusow $707,000 Daniel Negreanu $199,000 Dewey Tomko $174,000 John Imishami $152,000 Charles Glorioso $152,000
800 in chips Avg. stack 3000 blinds 100/200 50 players left
I am in BB blind leaving me 600 left.
EP limps in - (first hand at table) $1500 in chips SB limps (first hand at table) $1500 in chips
I have AQo. I raise. Both call.
Flop is 10 rag rag. Bad flop. Didn't hit my hand and not great for a semi-fluff and I'm out of position with only 400 in chips left.
What is the play here? Check and fold? I bet since both acted timid on the flop. Since they both have fairly small stacks they might not want to engage if they don't have a ten.
Yikes. Bad news as early player raised me. I call with me overcards.
He has 10,Q. K on turn. Missed the 7 outer on the river and I am done.
did I make any mistakes?
Don't make the preflop raise, unless this was NL, in which case I raise all-in preflop to try and get one of them to fold.
Since it appears it was limit, you know they're both going to call, and you know you're going to flop nothing about 2/3 of the time. Just check your option, and see the flop. If you flop nothing, you should probably check-and-fold, unless you can put the bettor on a bluff with high confidence or some other unusual situation presents itself.
Since you did raise preflop, you should bet this flop. There is a good (well, at least reasonable) chance they both fold as long as they don't have a T in their hand. Too bad one of them did.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Henry Nowakowski $1,076,000 Carlos Mortensen$873,000 Phil Hellmuth $859,000 Mike Matusow $767,000 Phil Gordon $681,000 Stan Schrier $672,000 Dewey Tomko $467,000 Steve Reihle $407,000 John Inashima $328,000
We play the first round in a heads up satellite for the WHUPC. Structure is: Every player gets 4000 in chips, blinds are 50/100, they double up after 1 hour and go to 150/300 after half an hour more.16 players, first one gets the buy in for the tourney.
I´m lucky and draw an opponent who is very easy to read.
Here´s the way he plays (almost no exeption in his play). When he has a hand (top pair on the flop or better)he overbets the pot every single time. He checks middle or bottom pair on the flop, turn and river (without improvement). He bets the minimum, when he has nothing at all.
After 30 minutes I´m up to 4400 (I was up to 5500 but got outdrawn in a nice pot before). Then this hand came up.
I´m in the SB (button) and catch AK. I raise up to 250, which I did about 90% of the time. When I raised, he decided to fold in ~75% of the times, called ~20% and reraised up to 2500 (!) twice. But in this specific hand, he raised up to 1100, which he did the very first time. I was sure, he didn´t have AA, KK, QQ or AK (this definitly would have been a 2500 raise). I thought about the hands he might have and gave him a pair from 66 to JJ or AQ and maybe AJ.
a) What would you do in this situation when you really know his cards and furthermore know that he´s going to call you for sure with all of this hands, when you move in on him before the flop?
b) Does it make any diference in your strategie, if he mucks hands like the smaller pairs?
c) Is it the proper strategie to call the bet and move in on the flop whatever comes (given that he checks, when he doesn´t have at least an overpair?)
d) Is it the better decission to fold and wait for better chances.
Please don´t forget that you can outplay him rather easy.
Thanks to all
Etowah
I would be inclined to fold. Against this guy I want the pots to be small preflop since I can read him so well postflop. Keep playing small pots preflop and wait for the opportunity where you're way in the lead postflop to get the money in the pot.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
With AK you really don't want to see the flop, if you think he'll call your move-in preflop, then either fold (not a bad play) or if you want to gamble a little, see the flop and if he doesn't look like it hit him, move in.
If you don't know, take a guess at how many players made the money (top 45) in the WSOP big event both this year and last year. Answer below.
Andy.
Two ! Mike Sexton and Barney Boatman. I wouldn't have expected many but even I was surprised there were only two.
This is one of the reasons why corporate sponsorship / TV coverage will find it very difficult to take off. Can you imagine only two players making the top 45 of the US Open Golf in successive years ? The public want winners to identify with and they want to be able to predict the high finishers with, well, at least some remote possibility of being near the mark. As a one off (eg Poker Million) it can be a success but any kind of [semi-]continuous coverage will be more difficult to market.
Comments welcome,
Andy.
If there is corporate sponsorship (and its not just the player's money) you could have "byes" for previous year's winners to the top 45 or even top 9.
So if for example player "A" wins in 2001, he will be in the finals for 2002, maybe even 2003 too.
Just a thought.
The one positive spin on the "only two repeaters out of 45" fact is that you can sell it to the public as "anybody can win."
While most of us realize that it takes tremendous skill to win, there is a great popular allure to the notion that a guy off the street can win. Wilford Brimley can compete with professionals, by god.
My wife has no particular interest in poker, but she has watched one version of the WSOP twice. Which one? The Kevin McBride/Scotty Nguyen final. She loved the going-to-the-bathroom move.
It almost has a "Who Wants to be a Millionaire" element to it.
Wilford Brimley can "play" with professionals, but after playing in a satellite with him, I would hesitate to use the word "compete".
That it helps to sell the product if it is believed that anybody (or any two cards) can win. Even if you and I know differently.
go here, http://www.pokerpages.com/index.htm
once on the homepage just click where it says LIVE AUDIO UNDERWAY!, click here
Enjoy!
Can someone please explain to me how the satelites and super satelites work? how much to get in? how many opponents? how many people win a seat? I am just curious.
THANKS
Satellites are usually one table and is a winner take all, although frequently a deal is made when it gets down to the final two. The cost vary. At the WSOP they had one tables that cost just over $100 for the $1000 event all the way to over $1,000 for the $10,000 event.
The super satellites at the WSOP are $225 with unlimited rebuys for the first hour (if you're under the original chip count, which is 200 in chips). The number of people who win seats is not determined until all of the rebuys are done and they know how much money is in the pot. I played in one the first weekend of May and they only gave 4 seats away. I understand a day or two before the big event, they were giving away as many as 14 in one.
JohnnyD
Chip Count: 15 Minute Break
Seat # 1: Phil Gordon (Started with T681,000)
~900K
Seat # 2: Henry Nowakowski (Started With T1,076,000)
~1.1M
Seat # 3: John Inashima (Started with 328,000)
~170K
Seat # 4: Carlos Mortensen (Started with T873,000)
~1.2M
Seat # 5: Stan Schrier (Started with T672,000)
~900K
Seat # 6: Mike Matusow (Started with T767,000)
~490K
Seat # 7: Phil Hellmuth JR (Started with T859,000)
~430K
Seat # 8: Dewey Tomko (Started with T467,000)
~600K
Seat # 9: Steve Reihle (Started with 407,000)
~300K
Chip counts abstracted from UltimateBet commentary
Hellmuth seems a little rattled according to the commentary. Tomko doubled through against him with AK vs Hellmuth’s Aqs
Johnny I. was knocked out on a 15 card draw.
Derrick
.
Mike Matusow just tried to bluff out Henry Nowakowski, a guy who has proved he can't lay down a hand with 7-2o. Henry had limped with K's and called. Mike lost about 600K. He is still in, but that definitely hurt.
According to the Ultimate Bet announcers Henry is the least experience player at the player, and he has limped with everything, and called huge raises as well. He has been incredibly lucky all tournament. Mike made a huge mistake here.
Derrick
Down to 6: Seat 1 - Gordon, Seat 4 - Mortensen, Seat 5 - Schrier, Seat 6 - Matusow, Seat 7 - Hellmuth, Seat 8 - Tomko,
7th Place - Henry Nowakowski ($179,825), 8th Place - Steve Reihle ($119,885), 9th Place - John Inashima ($91,910)
Derick
Chip Count:
| Seat # | Player | Current Chip Count |
| 1 | Phil Gordon (Started with T681,000) | ~1M |
| 2 | Henry Nowakowski (Started With T1,076,000) | ~300K |
| 3 | John Inashima (Started with 328,000) | Out 9th |
| 4 | Carlos Mortensen (Started with T873,000) | ~1.2M |
| 5 | Stan Schrier (Started with T672,000) | ??? |
| 6 | Mike Matusow (Started with T767,000) | ~840K |
| 7 | Phil Hellmuth JR (Started with T859,000) | ~600K |
| 8 | Dewey Tomko (Started with T467,000) | ??? |
| 9 | Steve Reihle (Started with T407,000) | ??? |
Mike after pushing in ~300K with 7-2o has doubled through against Phil Gordon with an A-T, now has over ~840K and rushing a bit.
Phil Gordon has now doubled through on Henry. Henry called a 340K raise on the flop of 9-7-5 with AK. Phil had top 2 pair. Henry now has ~320K, and Phil has about 1.0M.
Derrick
Phil Hellmuth took out the new kid with J's against 7's.
Derrick
n/t
.
Chip Count:
| Seat # | Player | Current Chip Count |
| 1 | Phil Gordon (Started with T681,000) | ??? |
| 2 | Henry Nowakowski (Started With T1,076,000) | Out 7th |
| 3 | John Inashima (Started with 328,000) | Out 9th |
| 4 | Carlos Mortensen (Started with T873,000) | ~1.3M |
| 5 | Stan Schrier (Started with T672,000) | ~600K-700K |
| 6 | Mike Matusow (Started with T767,000) | ~800K |
| 7 | Phil Hellmuth JR (Started with T859,000) | ~1.1M |
| 8 | Dewey Tomko (Started with T467,000) | ~600K |
| 9 | Steve Reihle (Started with T407,000) | Out 8th |
This is my current chip count from Ultimate Bet commentary.
http://www.thegoodgamblingguide.co.uk/spotlight/wsop2001/wsop2001reports_champ.htm#finalday.
..I'm picking Hellmuth over Tomko at the end. The level of play doesn't appear to have been particularly high, esp from Nowakowski. Mortensen has blown off 700K in the last half-hour, from 2Million.
From www.thegoodgamblingguide.co.uk
16:20 Phil Gordon loses a big pot to Matusow who makes three Kings on the flop and checks. Gordon bets 200k, Mike raises 200k and gets called. 15 minute break 16:05 Henry plays an odd hand. Gordon bets 70k, Henry raises 70k with A-K, Gordon flatr calls with 9-7. Flop is 9-7-5 and Henry bets out of turn, Gordon sets him in, call. Henry loses a big chunk. Two hands later Henry bets with 7-7, Phil Hellmuth raises him all-in with J-J which hold up. Henry Nowakowski is 7th. 15:50 Carlos bets 80k, Mike raises 300k, Henry all in for 600k, Mike calls, Carlos folds. Mike has 7-2 offsuit! Henry A-Q. Henry doubles thru back to million+. Mike then gets all in for 300k with A-T and against a raiser having A-7suited from Gordon. Mike doubles back up. 15:35 4k antes, 10-20k blinds, 54k per round. 15:20 Steve Reihle gets all in with J-J against Phil Gordon's A-K. Small cards all the way but 3rd spade on 4th street and another on The River, the A-K flushed and Steve is 8th. 15:05 John Inashima out bluffing with T-5clubs, called by Carlos Mortensen with A-9spades. John caught a five on the flop, a nine hit the river. Next hand Mike Matusow bets 35k, raised by Nowakowski 100k, all-in for 400k more, called. Mike had K-K, Henry J-J, flop 4-6-6-4-2, Mike doubles thru to 1000k. 14:50 Arguments over slow play. 14:35 No one out, slow play. 14:05 15 minute break. 13:50 Hellmuth looking weak. No one out. 13:35 (Vegas time, 21:35 London) Hellmuth calls Tomko's all in bet of $300k with A-Q diamonds. Tomko had A-K and that stood up, doubles thru to $600+. Hellmuth looking weak. No one out. 13:20 Hellmuth up to $1000k, Gordon aggressive to $900k. Nowakowski same as start, everyone else down. 500 spectators and camera crew. 13:05 Little action, no player making a move. Antes $3000, $5 & $15k blinds. Hellmuth unusually quiet, he tries a bet of $30k in the dark before the flop came over after a $40k open. Gorden puts it down on A-J-T flop. Gorden is betting every hand. 12:45 (Vegas) At the start its $2000 antes and $5k and $10k blinds.
Hellmuth has wonderful position in which to catch Matusow speeding.
My updated predictions:
1 - Hellmuth
2 - Mortensen
3 - Tomko
4 - Matusow
5 - Gordon
6 - Schrier
16:10 chips
PG 850
CM 1900
SS 750
MM 1100
PH 1000
DT 450
Chip Count:
| Seat # | Player | Current Chip Count |
| 1 | Phil Gordon (Started with T681,000) | ~500K |
| 2 | Henry Nowakowski (Started With T1,076,000) | Out 7th |
| 3 | John Inashima (Started with 328,000) | Out 9th |
| 4 | Carlos Mortensen (Started with T873,000) | ~2.0M |
| 5 | Stan Schrier (Started with T672,000) | ~900K |
| 6 | Mike Matusow (Started with T767,000) | ~1.3M |
| 7 | Phil Hellmuth JR (Started with T859,000) | ~1.1M |
| 8 | Dewey Tomko (Started with T467,000) | ~300K |
| 9 | Steve Reihle (Started with T407,000) | Out 8th |
This is my last update.
These were from the PokerPages Audio.
Derrick
Phil Gordon has just doubled through on Phil Hellmuth. Phil Hellmuth had 9's against Gordon's 6's. Gordon spiked on the flop.
Hellmuth is down to ~500K
Derrick
Hellmuth is out.
Hellmuth had Q-10 offsuit. Carlos had Q-J.
Flop comes Q-9-4 with 2 spades. Hellmuth bets T60,000, Carlos raises T200,000. Hellmuth goes all-in.
Hellmuth loses! Turn comes a J, river comes airball!
Hellmuth is out!
From Pokerpages Live Audio.
Lawrence Ng
.
Mortensen ~$3M Tomko ~$1.4M Gordon ~$900K Schrier ~$800K
4th Place = $399,610 - not bad
Tiltboy did a great job of putting Hellmuth on tilt. Probably cost Hellmuth the WSOP......which is kind of like a consolation prize for a tiltboy......If you can't win, at least put the a world champion on tilt!
Final 2: Dewey vs. Carlos
Just listening to Daniel Negraeu for the last 15 minutes while their on a break to get heads up, has given me splitting headache. I'm listening to ultimatebet. Annie Duke is excellent, thank god Daniel is now off air. He sounds like he's on speed. He needs to stay on the tables and off the air. Anyway, this live audio is superb.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
I was listening to pokerpages audio for a while, but was having probalems with the audio, so switched to ultimatebet. I agree, Annie Duke is great on air.
Every time I tried pokerpages audio a real player sw download would start even though I already have the sw downloaded, so I couldnt listen to PPs broadcast.
I listened instead to the ultimatebet broadcast....
A lot of that broadcast was so choppy, I couldnt make out what was being said...
Eventually though that cleared up ...
Anybody know what Im doing wrong?
IMHO Daniel did just fine, and I'm not saying that because I know him, because I don't. Besides, Daniel was more like Annie's guest speaker, since he was planning on playing the final table himself less than 24 hours before the broadcast.
I could have done without all the confusion created by Annie & Daniel's inability to see the table very well. Hopefully whoever is doing the broadcasting next year will have a better line if sight.
I started off by listening to Poker Pages broadcast. Their commentator's voice was way too low, he sounded like he was talking into his arm pit. It was topped off by some horribly loud feedback that caused me to have to lift my headphones away from my ears from time to time. Luckily I found Annie and Daniel.
on your reply on him that he sounds on speed is that i heard rumers that it is true he is a well good customer esp when he blew the final table. must of made alot of trips to the mensroom. with p.h.
You know what????? As a regular reader and sometimes poster here, I am getting sick and tired of seeing the likes of the above posts that take cheap shots at some of the more public players.
Tell you what......If you have direct knowledge of any transgressions, why dont you post your real name and e mail address and detail them? The kind of gosssipy rumor-mongering displayed above is nothing more than sophmoric behavior and speaks volumes for the mind set of the posters.
These kinds of posts have no business here....let's talk about the game, not indulge in mean spirited cheap shot's directed at people who cannot ever reply in a satisfactory manner to the likes of the above.
In my original post I never meant to imply that he did that. That was not my point. Thinking back on it, I should not of described his commentary in this manner. But he was talking REALLY FAST!!
that is all,
danny boy :o)
yes there should be a way when you write a post and, have your email locked in. it also stops the confusing of the address also.
bbb
We Alll know thats right. but he sounded better after
Nails open end straight draw to Deweys Aces.
Had a flush draw as well on the flop, lots of outs
That's two Europeans in three years, right?
If you're asian in the kitchen, what are you in the bathroom?
European!
.
While not for one minute doubting that Johnny Chan is one of the world's greatest tournament players, there are 2 hands/plays that he made at the WSOP 2001 $3000 NL HE event that I would like the opinions of other 2+2ers on.
My thanks to Andy Glazer for letting me cut and paste the details of the 2 hands from his report on the event which can be found at http://www.poker.casino.com/article.pl/aid=a_chance_for_redemption
(BTW, other great daily WSOP 2001 reports and poker information from Andy can be found at his site www.poker.casino.com)
Hand #1
Final table, 3 handed, blinds $5000/$10,000 antes $2,000, chip counts are:
Chan, $280,000 Goldstein, $356,000 Seidel, $510,000
"Chan made it $35,000 from the button, and Seidel raised $105,000 more from the big blind, with Chan calling. The flop came 5s-Qc-2c, Seidel moved all-in, and Chan called fast, just like a shot. A-K for Seidel, 6-6 for Chan, and when the board finished 4-Q, Chan had doubled through the chip leader and become the new leader."
Hand #2 Chan has almost 3 to 1 chip lead over Seidel and they are now heads-up
"So much for momentum: Chan had pounded Seidel back to about $300,000. Seidel had fallen back a bit further when we hit hand #150. Chan made it $30,000 from the SBB, and Seidel called. The flop came 5c-6c-Jd, Seidel checked, Chan bet $90,000, and Seidel hesitated. Then, with a wave of his hand, he indicated he was moving all-in. Chan called instantly. Ac-3c for Seidel, As-Qs for Chan. Chan had the lead, but with outs to any club or a three, Seidel had a big draw: twelve outs twice for about 47% winning chances. He didn't need the "twice." The 9c hit the turn, and Seidel had doubled through. They counted his chips, and figured out that Chan had to ship $197,000 over to him. When you add in the $64,000 that had been in the pot pre-flop, Erik Seidel had just won a $458,000 pot, and new life at 8:05 p.m."
What do you guys think of Chan's play in both these hands?
The play with pocket 6's I like. He undoubtedly put Seidel on big slick or something of that nature and when Seidel bet out the only hand Chan couldn't beat was AQ or a pair of 7's thru j's. Surely Seidel would have just called with Aces or Kings and try to trap Chan so the pre-flop re-raise took those two hands out of the equation. With his big lead bet on the flop you can rule out pocket Queens, fives, or dueces. At their level of play you just put someone on a hand and go with it. I don't like the call with the AQs though. I think I just would have let that one go but I'm not going to second guess one of the all-time greats when I couldn't even make it through day2.
Cheers,
RF
First call was probably good.
Second call was stupid.
Interesting hands but, for me, without being there and without having an idea of the kinds of head games Chan and Seidel will be playing short-handed, almost impossible to comment on - sorry !
Andy.
johnny was the favorite both times''
In heads-up no-limit tournament holdem, because of the few cards in play (4 before the flop, 7 after), prohibitively high blinds, as well as the high possibility of bluffs, otherwise weak hands such as a pair of 6's or AQo are almost "must play" hands.
JEH
In the second hand because of Chan's chip position vrs Seidels it is an automatic call assuming Johnny puts him on at the most one pair.
In the first hand, here's what I think happened. Chan decided he was committed to the hand. However, if he reraised preflop, Seidel was going to be getting about 3:1 on the call, and therefor would very likely call with most of his possible hands. So, with 66 Chan isn't much ahead of things like Q9o, T8s, etc., and knows he's not getting much the best of it by playing those hands all-in.
However, if he saves his chips, and if Seidel checks the flop, then Chan can bet and maybe get Seidel to fold hands that he shouldn't. Or, Chan may have figured on folding to any flop with an A or K in it if Seidel bet. Or, maybe he had a tell that Seidel didn't hit this flop.
On hand 2, I don't like the call much, but it can't be any significant mistake, because he's getting something like 3:1 on the call. Unless he has to hit twice to win, it's a good call. As it was, he was the (slight) favorite. Given this possibility, plus if he again had a tell, then I can't criticize the play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Limit tournament last night. Started with 170+, at this point down to 5 tables.
Blinds are T500-T1000 and I have T7000 on the button (near the chip leaders on the table). I get A10o, 3 callers no raise so I call. Flop comes 10-8-2 rainbow.
Two check, third (slightly more chips than me) player bets, I raise. First two players fold.
Turn comes 6 of the fourth suit, third player checks, I bet, he calls. On the river we see a three. third player checks, I throw in my last T2000 with my top pair, top kicker. Third player calls and shows pocket queens - instead of doubling I'm out.
I sure felt taken - how do I avoid this type of play in the future?
I would have checked the river for fear of two pair (10-8 suited) or a slowplaying made straight on the turn trying to milk me. The pot is big enough to try win a showdown without committing your last 2000, thereby giving you a few more hands to play if you are beaten. He's not calling your bets with garbage unless he's a weak player.
I'm surpised the ppQ played so passively though. I think he made the bigger mistake not raising preflop and not protecting his top pair better. His play deserved to find the big blind getting a free play with a hand like 10-2 offsuit.
I think your preflop call in this situation is marginal at best. ATo is a tough hand to take five handed.
Bruce
Let me ask you 2 questions....
1.) Is ATo a hand that you can stand a re-raise with? You have 3 limpers in already and the SB & BB behind you to act.
2.) If you're thinking about limping, what do you hope to flop? Be careful what you wish for....you might get it!!
Althought being on the button is good position, given your chip & table position and the stage of the tournament, I would have mucked the hand preflop.
Ditto guyz:
An ATO is a hand that can absolutely cripple you at this point. This holding usually spells doom, especially if you're itching to play. It looks just good enough to play, but too good to fold.
How's your chip position at this time? Were you short-stacked in comparison with everyone else? The way you describe it, you almost sounded like you wanted to take a stand with it (double through).
If situation were different, ATO becomes playable either 1st in on the button or 1 limper, then you can raise and steal or play he with position.
Plus, since you're on the button, I think you have time to look for a better situation/hand to get some more ammunition.
Give BB lots of credit, he set a good trap and you obliged.
Bad luck, 'cause it definitely looks like you've got the best hand after the flop. After your raise, you're committed.
Happens to all though, I done it a few times, and then banged my head on the wall in the men's room.
Better luck next time, Mike
In live games and tourneys I have had A10o rolled over on me and they think it is the nuts that is how you make your money oh yeah i wouldn't have called preflop in that postion with someone eles chips but i have and now you are on your way to being a better player.good luck
The best way to avoid this is to learn to read hands better. Admittedly, without a raise preflop, it's hard to put the guy on an overpair. However, when he calls your raise on the flop and your bet on the turn, how many hands can he have that don't beat yours? If he's a loosey-goosey calling station, then maybe your river bet is good. For a skilled opponent, I put him on a draw or a slowplay. If it's a draw, he's folding anyway, so why bet? If it's a slowplay, you lose, so why bet? However, if the guy would've played T9, TJ, etc., the same way, then your river bet isn't necessarily a mistake.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I am not sure I play the ATo at this point. I would rather play it for a steal/raise then against 4 other players. You are committing 1/7 of your chips on an okay hand.
The only thing I might do differently is check the river. With all his calling you do have to start putting the player on a hand, but your top pair does look good. The passive player with QQ does make things tricky since he doesn't bet his hand.
Ken Poklitar
I'd be interested in your thoughts about when a good players skill becomes the most important factor in a tournament.
My thoughts are that at the beginning of the tournament skill is not so important, other than dodging bullets, and that towards the end the blinds are getting so large that luck is the major factor.
Therefore there may be a segment in the middle of a tourney, that can possibly be defined in terms of the ratio between blinds and average stack, where the skillful player has the maximum advantage.
What do you think?
Here's a story for you. Davy Crockett spies a nice juicy squirrel on a tree and takes out his gun to shoot it. The squirrel runs round the other side of the tree. Davy circles around, only to find that the squirrel moves around too, keeping the tree trunk between Davy and itself so he can't get a clear shot. My question is, is Davy circling the squirrel or is the squirrel circling him ?
Do you see my point ?
Andy.
However for some reason the words "juicy squirrel" make me feel slightly nauseous.
Skill is a factor throughout the tournament dodging bullets and managing stacks around bigger and bigger blinds. I beleive the most skill is necessary at the final table where the rubber meets the road here is where the guts and deteremination gets it's pay off.
nt
The question I posed re: the squirrel may be interesting but it is of no practical use. The real question is how does Davy catch it, which Mr. Rouge has answered !
Get the message ?
Andy.
Hi, playing a Limit HE tourney. I have T2875. Blinds are 150-300. Blinds are increasing next hand. I am dealt AKs UTG+2.
UTG+1 raises. He just showed up on the table so I have no knowledge of the player. He has 600 more chips than I do. I 3-bet him. Everyone folds. He calls the raise and we see the flop.
Flop is JT3 rainbow. He checks. I bet and he calls.
Turn is A. He checks. I bet and he checkraises me. I have 675 left. There is T4650 in the pot. Do I call or fold?
The only hand that I can put him on that I have him beat is AQ. He could have a set, two pair or even the straight. With the blinds doubling next hand I decide to put my remaining chips in and see what happens.
He shows KQo and wins a nice pot.
Now in a ring game I am pretty sure my call is standard. In a tournament should have I mucked and hoped the next 2 hands gave me something?
Ken Poklitar
When situations such as this occur, you end up thinking about them for days and weeks. Hear is my take, you have position on him. he raised before the flop and called your reraise. i would have to put him on several hands, but KQ i would not. although i think that even if your A hits on the turn i might just check behind him. in hindsight everything looks clearer.
its a tough decision but one i think you might have done better by not calling his reraise and taking your chances with two more hands to come.
but thats just my take
I tend to agree that checking the turn was the correct play.
I was planning to check the turn but when the Ace dropped I bet before I had a chance to really think things out. I knew KQ would kill me but I think I should have been more scared of two pair. I try not to assume the headsup opp does not always have the nuts but sometimes he does :(
Ken Poklitar
I also call him down here, but I like Scott's suggestion. Your mistake was betting the turn, unless this guy is a well-known calling station. Even though it improves your hand, the card is so dangerous that I would check it and then call any river bet he makes. If he checks the river I probably check behind him unless a Q came to give me the nuts.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Jonesey's Rule of Thumb #27:
When 3 of the 5 Broadway/Treetop show, ring game or tourney, proceed with caution, straights are prevalent.
Nothing new from me, I agree with the panel, I would call him down and pray.
I think that if you were going to fold to a check- raise here then you should have checked the turn to avoid this or to induce a bluff on the river.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I have 22000 chips, blinds 150-300.
First position I am dealt AA. I make it 1000 to go. 2 callers.
flop J72 rainbow.
I bet 3000. first caller raises to 10000. I move all in. He calls.
turn 4.
river Q.
He shows QQ.
:-(
when is next years event?
Cheers,
Keith
Bummer.
Next April/May :)
Ken Poklitar
In FULLCONTACT poker Keith, you could have at least SMACKED him ;-)
Sorry, next year!
.
I hope you stood up and yelled "you damn Americans can't push me around ..." Even more appropiriate if the dark sided villian was Canadian ...
Who is to say same thing won't happen next year?
Cheers,
berya
nt
Damn! Guess he didn't want to lay down the qq's, I don't like his play though.
Anyone else with any hands from the series?
that is all,
danny boy :o)
How about another hand or two? Looks like you won a few along the way. I'm just interested in some of the plays. If ya got the time, how bout tellin about a nice winning hand?
that is all,
danny boy :o)
Last level Day 1...
I have 22000 in chips (must be something to do with having 22000 in chips I guess)
Blinds 50-100.
In early seat I make it 400 to go with AK hearts. Big blind reraises to 1000. I call.
Flop K102 (2spades)
He bets 3000. I raise 5000 to set him in. He calls. Turn and river both spades. he shows King of diamonds and ace of spades. :(
The more I think of it the more I reckon this tournament is a matter of not getting unlucky early. if you can day 1 with the 10000 you start with you are in great shape.
I ended with 7900 despite this beat and went on a nice rush early on day 2 to reach 22000 again. In the big blind I picked up AK and doubled through against A10. Then I played sherriff against a small stack calling an oversized raise with 99 and he mucked when rags showed on the flop.
It is a fantastic event to play in and I would urge everyone to have a shot.. Ok i took a horrible beat but I cant wait to have another go next year.
Cheers,
Keith
weekly NLHE tourney. 6 tables start and we're down to two- final table gets paid. I have the second largest stack left and the tournament chip leader is to my immediate left and she is a less than average, loose passive player who has been making a lot of huge hands by calling to the river and knocking out all-in bettors by drawing out.
Blinds are 100/200 and I have about 5000... she has about 5500. I get A-Qoff in the cutoff and it's passed to me. I raise to 600. I'm sure she'll call with most anything, and my image at the table is a little over-aggressive, so I'm hoping I might get re-raised by one of the blinds (both solid players with medium stacks) with a less than premium holding so I can come over the top and isolate the lady with an inferior hand (she almost never folds pre-flop). The lady calls and the blinds both fold. The flop comes A-K-x rainbow. I'm pretty sure she'll call with any A or any K, and it's unlikely that she would play AA, KK, or AK from the button without a raise, so I'm 99% sure that I not only have the best hand, but have a good chance at getting all her chips. So I push in my stack and she calls. The turn comes an x and the river is a 9. She turns over K-9s for two pair and I'm out.
I'd like to hear some other approaches to playing this hand against this type of player. Keep in mind that nothing about her prior play gave me any reason to think that she would have folded this hand preflop, even for an all-in bet... and she obviously wasn't going to fold after the flop either.
thanks, Craig H.
we are told to be happy to have this kind of player, but it sure hurts at times like you had!! we can't look for the bear behind every tree, so you were right to show no fear. if we were talking about BIG $$$, and you wanted max caution, then, yes it could have been played to cost less since you said she was pasive player- she might not have raised. Jim
i think there's a lesson to be learnt here
i had an almost identical scenario in a tournie last week - i'm 2nd chip leader and the chip leader is to my left who'd accumulated his chips in a similar manner to your chip leader
in the SB i find JJ and raise it 200 blinds are 25/50
flop comes 3 rags (something like 9,6,2 i bet 300, he calls, turn is a 3, repeat the process, river a T - repeat the process) - he shows 9,3o
the lesson is i played it very badly - don't go to war with the only stack that can break you - i should have slowed right down after the call on the turn - after all i only had one pair as did you - no sense going allin if you know she'll call when all you've got is a single pair be it top pair and top kicker or an overpair
Do you have enough chips ? You should have an idea how many chips are in play and how many you need to be in a good position at the final table. If you have more than 10% of the total chips in play, and so does your opponent, then it is worth thinking about check-calling and not committing your whole stack.
If, on the other hand, you have less than 10% of the total, and in particular if you have less than 5%, then both the situations described are great spots to double up and get you up there. Play them, and if you get drawn out, them's the breaks.
Andy.
it was the £30 NL tourno at russell square on thursday
we both had loads of chips at the time (probably 10%) but the buyins hadn't ended and they were as ferocious as usual
as a guide my oppponent made the final with about the same amount of chips as he had after that hand so yeah maybe my play was OK but i'm still convinced that against a big stack you should be wary early in a competition especially if all you have is one pair
OK, I didn't really read your post carefully enough :-). When you have that many chips compared to the blinds, yes you have to tread a little carefully with only one pair, I agree. I was really talking about the kind of situation you face on the last 2/3 tables when the blinds are higher.
What kind of prize pool does this tournament generate ? I was thinking of playing it at some point but I really need a good reason to play in Russell Square, I just don't like the subterranean card-room :-).
Andy.
40 runners last week
1st £1360 2nd £680 3rd £240 pays down to 9th (£60 i think)
i really like this tournament as it's the only time i can get to play no limit - you start with 700 chips and blinds are 25/25 so there's room to manoeuvre
you're right about the cardroom though
With a holding like AQ you really don't want to induce a call the hand is vulnerable - Big time. You want to make a bet big eneough to win the blinds right there. Same holds true with AK.
At a full table your thinking might hold if you are talking about AA or KK and you want to isolate a weak player to get all the chips in pre flop and you already have a made hand AQ is hardly a made hand.
I have no problem with your play pre-flop. I don't like your all-in raise on the flop. Why not bet something closer to the pot on the flop. Bet 1500 which leaves you with 2900. You can then go all-in on the turn. Does she still call? It is very possible but I think this method gives you the best shot. Hey you went in with the best hand and got sucked out on. Next hand.
I am not sure I agree with your logic about wanting to be re-raised by one of the blinds so you can go all-in preflop. AQo is a good hand but not a great hand. Why would you want a solid player to re-raise you? I would tend to muck AQo in NL against most re-raises from solid players. I understand you say you have an aggressive image but it is quite possible that if the blinds re-raise you, you would be in trouble.
Ken Poklitar
I agree with the way you played this hand. If you know that she's going to call with any Ace or King, you should get it all in on the flop and hope she calls. Your a huge favorite over a lesser Ace and a fairly big favorite over a King. There's not going to be too many better situations for you to become the overwelming chip leader in the tourney, so you have to take the oppurtunity when it arrises. If you had won this hand, your almost assured of top 5, and you have a really good chance at a win.
Peace Goodie
...if only it had a *slightly* better punchline.
"What the Deck Giveth..."
I was in LV last week to see a few hands of The Final Table and play in a few small tournaments; more to get away from D.C. than anything else.
I played in a small tournament last Friday morning at Mandalay Bay; $25 entry, 30 player limit. I've had a couple of good hands beaten by decent draws and stupidly chased a couple top pair-mediocre kicker hands beaten by top pair-good kickers.
My stack is down to a whopping $15 out of the $7,500 on the board, and I find myself all in on the big blind with 6-3 offsuit. My elimination looks like it will bring the tourney down to two tables.
Five people see the 3-3-6 flop and I've got $75 in front of me. I double up the very next hand with A-Q, and with the blinds I have nearly $200. Still not much breathing room, but considerably better than $15.
I knock one person out with A-K and cripple another, and I've got about $600 in front of me. I'm actually thinking grandiose thoughts at this point, thinking there's potentially a great bar story in this.
Soon, we're down to one table and I have around $1,200 -- I believe I may have been chip leader at our table or close to it at the table break-up.
I get badly beat with two pair when a player draws out on a flush and I'm down to around $675.
Meanwhile, three more players have been eliminated. Tournament pays top 4, although 4th is not too much more than the entry fee.
I'm third to act and I see K-K. Under the gun goes all in with his $325; next player folds. If I win this hand I'm back to right around an even stack with six players left. I reraise all in to isolate; it works...until the big blind, who calls (he was the guy whose flush beat my two pair).
Under the gun shows A-K.
I show my K-K.
Big blind shows A-A.
Wham, and out in sixth place.
Eh. It's still a pretty good story. :-)
Mike
Good comeback.
I have a feeling you were drawing a little thin on that last hand.
Ken Poklitar
Nope, you've got to win these things for a really good story.
My best comeback was winning an event where I had 1/800th of all the chips with about 30 left. T160,000 in play, limit HE, Saturday morning event at Foxwoods. I lose a hand and am down to T200 with blinds of 200/500 (and the 200 has to immediately go into the small blind). In fact, I posted about this event when it happened, title had the word "gift" in it, I believe.
I also won a tourney back in Oceanside where I started the final table with 2 chips, exactly equal to the big blind. I was the shortest stack at the beginning of EVERY hand dealt at the table until I got heads-up and after a number of hands gained the lead. Unfortunately, I do not know exactly how many chips were in play, but it was probably about 300-400, so not as big of a comeback as the FW tourney.
A guy here at FW once won the Sunday morning stud tourney when he was down to T25, a single ante. There was about T140,000 in play as best he can recall. So, he was probably down to 1/5,000th of all the chips, or thereabouts.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
have been told that the phrase "a chip & a chair" came from Jack Straus when he won WSOP years ago. he went all in &lost, but as he started to leave the table he discovered one chip under his pack of cigarettes---when he had pushed in his stack he did not declare all in, thus it was ruled he could play the chip he found...then went on to win it all!! Now that IS a comeback. Jim
A guy here did something similar, he was down to 10 chips in PL Stud with antes of 50 and he went on to win. As legend goes, he was in the previous hand for 50 and folded to save his last 10 ! These comps generally have about 50-70K chips in play so it's of the same order.
I love hearing this story repeated and rarely miss a chance to do so myself as it encourages people to go right down to the felt rather than taking a stand earlier like they should.
Andy.
You think you felt bad on the showdown---what about the poor guy with A_K ? better luck next time, Jim
I think I'd rather have A-K's straight chances, before the flop, than K-K drawing for the case K.
I'll take the KK.
If the AK is suited, it is slightly better than the KK, with both only having about a 10% chance of winning. If the AK is offsuit, it's chances drop to less than 5%, with the KK still having only about a 10% chance.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Since we have takers for the AK & KK. I guess I will be forced to take the AA :)
Ken Poklitar
I would very much like to hear your opinions on the following situations:
1. You are in the middle stages of a NLHE tournament. Blinds are 50-100, average stack is about T1500, and you have T800. You pick up a hand such as JJ, QQ, or AK in early position. Which is better, betting T400 or T800? (What are the merits of each play?) I am, of course, assuming that you will call any reraise pre-flop.
2. Same question, but with KK or AA, and also consider the possibility of limping.
3. Both questions again, but now at the final table (say, eight handed... stacks and blinds in the same proportions)
Your thoughts on any or all of these situations are greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
A general rule of thumb (not to be strictly adhered to but to be used as a starting point) is that if a normal pot-size raise (350 to go in this case) takes more than half your stack then you are pot-committed and should go all-in.
Here this is not quite the case. With the hands that you mention you almost certainly will be pot-committed if you only get one caller, but with some other raising hands then you wouldn't be, so it's not advisable to go all-in with just the better ones. If for any reason you think that someone might call the all-in bet but not the smaller one with a weaker hand then you could do it, but I think a normal raise might be best here. Depending on who calls and their position, you have the option of betting right out on the flop anyway which may win more pots than going all-in (albeit of course that the extra pots you win will be smaller, but this is still good).
2) I wouldn't limp with KK. If you limp with Aces and get beaten, don't moan about it :-)
3) 8-handed at the final table isn't really much different IMO when you are short-stacked. Normally sneaking up a couple of places here doesn't help much.
Andy.
1) At this point I want to get atleast one caller. These are above average hands so I would rather not just steal the blinds but I don't want too many callers. So I would raise to 400 and plan to bet all-in on the flop.
2) I would do the same with AA & KK. If the button/cutoff players tend to steal a high percentage of the time then I might think of limping hoping to isolate the stealer. I rarely do that with KK.
3) I probably play the same way on the final table.
Ken Poklitar
With these blinds, my typical raise is 300 to go. I would still do that, and then be prepared to bet pretty much any flop if called. I also would not fold to any reraise, not unless it's a reraise AND a re-reraise, upon which I might fold the JJ, QQ, and AK hands (maybe the KK, but I'd have to really know the last raiser).
The only way I would limp with these hands if is I was at least 80% sure that someone would raise, and that they would often do so with a pretty weak or at least marginal hand, one where I am pretty much always going to be the solid favorite. Trapping somebody holding KQ when you have JJ isn't much of a trap, nor is it when they have 44 to your AK, so be very cautious with this play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I just played a local $20 buy-in NLHE tourney and needed some feedback with the following hand. everyone starts with 400 in tourney chips. the blinds are 15 and 25. i'm on the button with A10o. everyone folds to the LP to my left. before he even bet i thought if it was folded to him that he would raise to try and steal the 2 SB's(because one player dropped out the hand before) and BB. at this point i think its an either fold or all in hand. i decide to go all in and he calls with a pair of queens. the board does not hit me and i'm out. was this the right thing to do if i put him on a steal(he a very loose aggressive player). is A10o even a good hand to go all in this early on the button when another player raises? all responses appreciated. thanks
no - AT can only be good against a steal attempt
against a genuine hand it is easily dominated (TTs - AAs and AK, AQ)- best you can hope for is 50/50 vs an underpair - early on dump the hand to a raise
it's a difficult hand to play if you flop an A bet and are raised too
If you had more than 100 chips it's a really bad play. You need to be really low on chips to make that play. If you had 400 you should rethink your philosophy on no limit. You are risking lots of chips to win 35. You will only be called by a better hand or at the least a 50/50 hand. Triple the blind and see what happens.
You don't give chip counts or the amount he raised which are all important.
But I don't think ATo is good enough to raise all-in in that situation. I understand that his raise might be a steal but why are you trying to play sheriff without some ammunition? ATo is a good steal hand but a clear fold if someone else has raised.
Ken Poklitar
Thanks guys!
Now that the dust has settled at the WSOP I am keen to come over and taste some Vegas action soon. The two tournaments I have my eye on are the Orleans Open (leading up to the TOC) and the Four Queens tournament in September.
At the moment I am leaning towards the Four Queens because it's non-smoking ; the rooms are cheap ; there are more big-bet tournaments on offer ; and I guess it will not be quite as busy (I'm not particularly interested in the TOC itself).
Is there anything I'm missing which would help me choose ? Any other comments anyone would like to make ?
Thanks in advance,
Andy.
The bigger tournament (in numbers of people who attend) will probably have more side games at more limits.
This is the first year for the 4 Queens tournament, so there's not much basis for discussion. My personal opinion is that the turnout will be very good.
JohnnyD
I've been to the Orleans/TOC the last 2 years. The fields in the tourneys, satellites, and side games were pretty weak both times. There were a lot of non-Americans in attendance both times, and some of them bring a LOT of action with them, especially the Europeans playing pot limit Omaha. Overall, I rate it a very good tourney to attend.
The 4 Queens is new again, and I never attended the prior events there, so I can't really predict anything. I'm with you about the smoking, however. I'd just be a bit concerned about coming all the way over from England and maybe finding a disappointing turnout, or a turnout that is all pros and no fish.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I believe there are likely to be twice as many players at Orleans vs. Queens....thus, following Mason's comment (above), that's the place to be.
The Four Queens event is being organized by the same people who did the Desert Poker Classic in Palm Springs. Bonnie and the others did a good job, but the turnout was low. I won one of the NL Hold'em events, but there was only 45 players. Some of the early events had 60/70 people, but players started leaving because there wasn't any side action. By the time it got to the final championship event, there was only 17 players. The problem with the 17 players....more than half of the were WSOP bracelet winners(Hassan Kamoei, Russ Hamilton, Mansour Matloubi, Tom McEvoy, Men the Master, Perry Green, Don Williams, just to name the ones I can think of)....then there was me. It wasn't a very good use of my money. I don't think the same thing will happen at Four Queens. Part of the problem in Palm Springs was it was right after Tunica and right before the WSOP. Plus, being in LV just make for a better turnout than Palm Springs.
JohnnyD
Does anyone have the webpage for information on the Orleans tournament?
Thanks.
Pokerpages have listings at
http://pokerpages.com/tournament/schedule350.htm
but I believe the tournies are mixed up. It says they have a NL tourney on July 10 & 11 but I don't think thats accurate. I believe July 10 is limit and July 11 is NL since I am planning on playing the first 3 HE events.
The tournies were listed on the orleans poker page but they are not there anymore so I am not sure where the accurate listing is now.
Ken Poklitar
I say hands down go with the 4Qs based on the house take on the tourneys at the Orleans. Disclaimer: I may be misreading things, but if things are as they have been in the past...
Those $125 tourneys will be $100 buy-in $25 for the house!?!?!
Or, $200 + $30.
Or, $300 + $40.
Or, $500 + $50. (best value!?!)
I think this is the largest cut for the house of any major; am I correct? This is an appropriate continuation of their obscene tradition of enormous house cuts, epitomized by last year's $200 entry fee for the $2000 main event at the TOC, which I believe is the largest entry fee for any tournament, ever (yet with a buy-in only one fifth of the buy-in for the World Championship).
Please correct me if I have erred.
In any case, we should all be very wary of escalating entry fees; this is NOT something we have to tolerate, and if we're not careful, entry fees like this will become the norm.
Hey Andy,
If someone was to back me I'd play in both of them. If not, well, there's a special place in me heart for the O'rleans.
Vince
Thanks to all so far,
One clarification : I'm not that bothered about the side action. I would consider myself to be a tournament specialist and so if I stepped into a side game with any kind of decent limits (or a big bet game) I suspect that I would be the sucker.
However, it would be a shame if the lack of side game action caused a downward spiral in the number of tournament entrants as described above. As long as the turnout is reasonably good, I would prefer to play in tournaments with 100-odd runners rather than 300-odd as this gives me more chance to make a (potentially smaller, but there you go) profit. Providing the 100 still includes a reasonable quota of fish :-).
As a point of comparison, I played a couple of events in the Winter Pot of Gold in Reno last year and would be happy to play at the same kind of level - there weren't too many fish, apart from Tuna Lund [joke], but I still cashed a profit. The satellites were particularly good.
Another point is that I wouldn't be playing above $500 anyway unless I got lucky in the earlier events and decided to take a shot, if this makes a difference.
Andy.
Well, if you want shorter fields, then don't pick the Orleans. The fields at the Orleans tend to be the biggest of any tourney all year. The opening limit HE event has twice drawn over 1000 players, and all the events get at least 200, and often more like 300-600.
On the plus side, the concentration of fish is one of the highest of any major tourney I've played in.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The Orleans is run by a very proffessional staff. There are nightly second chance tournaments. I feel their satelites are two juiced up to pique my interest. Besides who needs to play satelites for $200 events. The Orleans has many ammenities such as theatres and good shows. Downtown LV is kind of a drag. When I am there I play until exhaustion. When I am at the Orleans I have a much more normal lifestyle. A typical day at the Orleans 9 am I hit the pool for about an hour. 10 am I hit the gym . 11am breakfast. 12pm the big tournament starts. You may choose to play satelites starting as early as 8 am. aIf you have had bad luck you can play a second chance later that evening. Personally I wait for the second weekend and play in the $230 buyin events as their fields are sigficantly smaller. By the way the rooms are much nicer at the Orleans.
So is the Four Queens downtown and not on the Strip ? This is the kind of thing I don't know !
Thanks,
Andy.
Yeah 4 queens is downtown close to binions.
Orleans is about a mile or so off the strip. I believe they have shuttles to one of the strip hotels.
Ken Poklitar
I am sorry about my unwaranted assumption. When you land at the LV airport you will be exiting same on Tropicana Blvd. which is the street on which the Orleans is located. It is appx. a $15 cab ride. YOu will be crossing Las Vegas Blvd. "the strip" on your way there. The last time I played at the 4Queens it was the filthiest venue in which I have ever played. This experience was however topped by the disgracful Harrahs running of the Carnival of Poker tournament where the smoke was so bad I refused to play. Downtown Las Vegas is home to Binions And the 4Queens. There is nothing to do except gamble. If I were to choose one tournament over the other I would without doubt choose the Orleans. I go every year for the last ten years. You'll be rewarded for your decision if not financially but at least I guarantee you will enjoy the experience.
Hello All, I'm planning on playing in my first ever NoLimit tournament at foxwoods tonight. I've played a couple no limit tourneys online and have been lucky enough to come in like 20th out of 60 a few times. I'm a regular limit player, but am eager to try no limit.... For those who are not familiar with it, Foxy's tourney is $25 buyin with unlimited $20 rebuys. I plan on making at least one rebuy, but 2 at the very most, as that is well within my finances...
Any advice out there for a rookie No-Limit player? like "dont go all in with AA" :) basically I'm looking for what size of a raise in general for big pocket cards, and how big of a raise should one call with a drawing hand, if at all.. any advice to help me last a bit is definitely appreciated. Also, if anyone reading this will attend tonight, feel free to e-mail me and let me know. Thanks in advance!
-jason
First advice: beware of the dude with the fossils in front of him... :-)
Second: You probably should take the double-add-on option at the end of the rebuy period. (40$ for T400)
Play can get crazy in the rebuy period, I've seen players rebuy 7-8 times (I wonder if they are overall winners...lol). Play your solid ring game strategy in the early stages.
Build your stack and shift into a more aggressive style near the middle-late stages, you'll need to steal some blinds and steal some pots. Avoid late confrontations with bigger stacks that can break you if you are among the leaders (unless you got the goods).
Play well and hope for the best...
Good luck!
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
ps: post your errors, if any, tomorrow on the forum.
Awesome :) I didn't realize that people made that many rebuys. I was planning on one, or like a double during the rebuy period. I'll post my results tomorrow. Hopefully I won't get stuck here at work and not be able to attend, but I'm almost 100% positive i'll be attending :) Thanks again!
-jason
Say hi to the dude with the fossils, as it's likely me.
My strategy is to rebuy whenever I qualify to do so, which includes before the first hand is dealt. Then, anytime you have T200 or less, you can rebuy, meaning you can do a double rebuy if you go broke. Finally, I always do the double add-on no matter how many chips I have. This means I always spend at least $95 ($25+10 original buy plus 3 rebuys), and have spent as much as $175 a few times.
During the rebuy period, you will often find yourself at a table where you can limp in and see the flop with many players for no raise (other times you'll draw a table where every pot is raised aggressively from the get-go). In these limping tables, I see a LOT of flops. The trick is to quickly learn how much action you can give each opponent postflop. Some guys you can call with top pair medium kicker, other guys you'll need the nuts to play on. Some guys you can steal from, others fugetaboutit. Many of the players change gears after the rebuy period ends, and there is less limping and more raising. You can start to steal blinds here if you feel the situation is right, and you'll need to see many fewer flops.
Have fun!
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
let me call your attention to posts (fbove) about WSOP--there are a few real good points there. Jim
I've played the Championship event twice now.. and have a few thoughts I would like to share if anyone is interested.
The 3 main qualities a player needs to progress a long way in this event are (in order)
1. Luck 2. Patience 3. Courage
I need to improve qualities 1 and 3!
Last year Sam Grizzle talked me to go on tilt, so I prepared for this by bringing my walkman to the tournie this year, and was upset to see them banned. Although a much nicer guy, Mel Weiner definitely affected my concentration on day 1 by his constant chattering. I must improve my concentration levels.
I must improve my fitness. Anyone that knows me will testify that I am no great physical specimen.. and I must admit this affected my play late on the first day as I tired quickly. Usually if I am playing for this long I am at or near the final table and adrenelin kicks in.. playing for 7 hours and with 400 or so others left.. I just felt fatigued. I will be fitter this time next year for my next attempt.
Don't be intimitidated by played with big named players. Respect their play, yes, but dont be scared. I pretty much crippled Huck Seed in the 3k no limit event when he made a bluff so obvious that I nearly didnt call because I doubted he would make such a play. I called and it was a bluff. I have seen nothing from these names to be scared of.
Don't waste time and effort by looking at what is happening on the tables around you.. focus purely on what is happening on your table it is the only one you where you can affect what is happening.
Day 1 is all about survival. You can't win the tournament on Day1 but you sure can lose it. My chip total of 7900 was plenty to go to war with on day 2. Indeed, how often are you nearly chip leader with 8000 when the blinds are 100-200???
Play ABC poker early, what is the point of getting cute when all you are shooting for is blinds of 25-50??? I can guarantee I will never go broke in the first 3 levels of this event unless I get a horrendous beat.
Thak god next year will be no smoking.. even though the railbirds are banned from smoking, the room gets terribly smokey.
Well, thats all I can think of for now.. comments appreciated.
Cheers,
Keith
Great post!! I thought it was open and honest and good insight for me, who has never played the big one.
On the "luck" point. I would add to what he says. Rather than having good luck, being number one....it's NOT getting UNLUCKY.
In two big events (this year's WSOP Seniors and last year's TOC) I don't think I won any big pots by hitting some lucky card. All of my "big" pots were where I was ahead all the entire hand. But, in both cases, the hand that cost me the most chips late in the tournament, were where I got "unlucky" and had somebody draw out against big odds.
JohnnyD
I wouldn't be intimidated against the name players. If you can play the game there is nothing to be afraid of. I played at the US championships and had TJ at my table for about an hour, also some guy they called the Greek. It was one of the 500$ buy ins. I actually felt really comfortable at the table, I think thats part of his game making you feel at home.
I reraised TJ with pocket KKs and made him lay his hand down. Sorry, I feel like bragging as I relive this memory. Anyway, the Greek busted me with Aces when I showed no PATIENCE and limped with KQsuited and got a piece of the flop.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
Good stuff Keith - I wish I had read that and taken that in before I played a recent 2-day £300 NL comp which I made a complete hash of :-).
Regarding concentration, I think I have seen you ask for a table change when paired with everyone's favourite character in Luton ? Maybe you should tough it out and practice tuning him out in these smaller comps. Luton may not have many world-class players (although there are one or two IMO) but it has its share of top-drawer annoying *******s.
As for the fitness, just pass on that casino food. It's 27o when it comes to healthy eating :-)
See you in Southampton this weekend ?
Andy.
Thats a good idea.. although the reason I dont want to sit with Mr K is I play these small tournaments primarily for fun. (although I try to take them seriously in the later stages). I enjoy sitting with Steve V, Steve T and Paul A and just having a laugh.. unprofessional maybe.. but I just cant take these small tournies seriously anymore.
I am surprised that you consider some of the players at Luton world class.. care to mention any names..? Steve V is very good but plays quite snug, Paul A is great but maybe a little too agressive and Dave W seems to play too tight near the money of big tournies. Just my view.
I can only get to Southampton on Tuesday (when I guess there will be a tiny field :( ) so if youre there.. ill see you then..
Cheers,
Keith
I see where you're coming from. I have the same attitude towards the £20 competitions lately, not through overconfidence because my record in the smaller comps is barely break-even !
I was really thinking of Mike Magee, surprised you didn't mention him, while Paul (particularly in Stud) and Dave are there or thereabouts.
I'll only be in Southampton Sunday/Monday so I'll have to catch you later,
Andy.
I guess I dont think of Mike as a Luton player.
Yes, I agree he is world class, although judging from some of the comments I overheard while watching him in the final of the 3k pl holdem at the WSOP alot of American players dont agree.. It made me extra happy for him that he comfounded the doubters and split the tournie.
Still... he does sometimes go bust on some pretty strange hands.
Damn, damn and damn again.
Yet, I went out of the tourney reaching the add-on as chip-leader.
Brief history: hold'em limit $250 buy-in, 1 additional rebuy 1 add-on (all $250 each). 69 players
After the add-on (last moment to rebuy), I have about $4900. From that point,I play a fairly tight poker, sometimes stealing the blinds, etc. In some cases I put pressure on the small stakes (as all you usually do).
The blinds grow, grow, grow and I'm still on the 2-3 chip leaders (2 tables left, 14 players in total).
KEY HAND: I'm on the button and I'm dealt K-K (all tourneys I lost with chip lead I had those damned paints cards)
1 player in mid position limps (a weak player), I raise, small blind folds, BB calls (another chip leader). Limits are $800-$1600.
Flop with no threatining cards, all check, I bet. BB and limper both call.
Turn: damn! an Ace. All check again and now a dilemma: Have I to bet or not? I decide on the caution side and I check. River an unmeaningful card.
All check and I bet. BB calls and shows me an A-10 suited (no help with suited cards or straight draws on the flop).
Results: You cannot believe me, but after that hand I lose a high percentage of my stack and the very next hand I was out of the tournament.
Question: Is it possible that in any tourney you have a premium hand in the later stages you are jeopardyzing 3/4 of the stack? THat is: I had to fold kings? I think that if I only limped with them on the button it was not a good idea.
3 times in a row I lost the tournaments with pocket KIngs which always found an ace on the turn. TURN not flop. And all those players were willing to play ace-x to see the 4th card (and I have a tight image). And definitely I have to let them pay to see the turn card.
What would you do in the same circustamces with pocket kings (or other premium hand) in a limit hold'em torunament when you have a good stack and are close to the money finishers?
Comment very very appreciated (and sorry for my bad english)
Marco
Well, I would of checked the river and not bet. I don't think you are going to get called with anything less than an ace. So, why bet? I agree with the preflop raise and the bet on the flop, those would be automatic. Just because it's getting close to the money doesn't mean you lay down KK's. Remember you want chips for that final table, and picking up a premium hand like this gives you a great shot at adding. Just my 2 cents.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
One more thought. If you where playing No Limit, you would of won the hand on the flop! Sorry, I'm just in my no limit mode of thinking after listening to the series and all.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
With 2 opponents I would tend to error on the side of caution and check on the river.
With KK, you are correct to raise preflop. Don't limp and be scared because of what has happened in the past. I also had a streak of 3 or 4 tournies last year where I ended on KK. You can't do much about it. Bet your hand.
It would be a pretty rare situation where I would fold KK pre-flop.
Ken Poklitar
First, ty for your responses. Ok, I think I didn't make a great mistake and, of course, in a no-limit tournament that guy had to put a great amount of chips pre-flop and all his stack on the flop.
But the point is:
- You play a good poker in all the early-mid stages (limit hold'em) reaching a good amount of chips, but ONE, only ONE stupid hand can broke you. I was 5 seats away from the final table and the prizes were very good (16,000 bucks for the winner...) and I lost with a real premium hand, without an ace on the flop (or possible 2-pair or sets), and went on the rail looking at 3 guys with a stupid bunch of chips that reached the final table. And this happened to me 3 times in a row in different tourneys with those damned kings. Now the point is the same (sorry if i'm stressing you): is it worth to put the money with a premium hand when YOU ARE ONLY 4-5 SEATS away from the money? Or is it better to wait the shortstacks going broke?
It's difficult to swallow that 3 players in the final table had 1/5 of my chips 10 minutes ago. Or maybe did I make a mistake to do play with the other 2 big stacks?
Somewhere I read that in a satellite tournament a player could throw away even a pocket aces. Is this concept close to a limit hold'em tournament?
Marco
I understand your point now. And I'd still raise my KK's, no question about it. It is still too early to be folding a hand like that. It is definately correct to fold AA's and KK's in certain situations near the end. Hopefully someone with more skill than me will elaborate.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
I think you need to give us more information before we can say too much more. You mention your stack size but you don't mention stack sizes of other players. Are there other players about to bust out? What is the average chips at this point? What is the payout for just making the final table and busting out? Are the blinds about to increase soon?
But even with all that information it is unlikely I would recommend you do anything different other than not betting the river.
There are cases where folding big pairs make sense but with 4 or 5 players still needing to bust out, I doubt this is one of them. If you do fold, how many chips will you have left if and when you get to the final table? If you have 4900 and the blinds are 400-800, that is only 4 rounds until you have no chips.
Ken Poklitar
I guess a lot depends on your goal. What is your objective here?
As Ken said, it also depends on the size of your stack in relation to the others and the blinds.
Than said, let's say you have an average stack of T5000 with limits of 250-500. So you are not in deep trouble but you'd like to have more. The question is : what do you want?
Is just getting to the final table a great accomplishement for you? Would that be a great pay day? Would you be satisfied with it?
Or do you want to win the tournament and the BIG money? It depends on your objectives, essentially. Don't let those beats affect you, if you were to repeat this situation over and over you'd win a lot more than you'd lose with KK, so you'd be in a better shape very often.
IMO, I think you have to go for it, or in other words you have to take this very good +EV opportunity and capitalize on it. That means raising preflop and betting the flop etc... This will (usually) get you closer to the big money and the glory, in the long run. Tournaments are about making the best +EV decisions that will get you the best return on your investment in the long run. That can mean folding aces preflop in some situations or going for it with a draw when the pot is big enough. Make those correct decisions and you should do fine.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Amen Prince!! Can I get a witness...
Marco, bad fortune man. I agree with the Prince (promotion to King?), what would you consider accomplishing/surpassing your expectations? It's your $$$ that you're committing to the tournament, play it how you feel comfortable. Whether building a tourney bankroll or wanting first place, make that decision yourself...don't let others make it for you.
Woulda...coulda...shoulda, if you win the key hand, you probably coast into the good $$$ (top 5). I know it's disheartening to lose when you see KK at this stage. It's all you can ask for...just the Dealer upstairs telling you it's not your turn yet.
You're very close...poetic justice will show itself soon. Probably in the form of KK, it's freaky how things like this work.
Best wishes, Mike
You probably should check the river but I think you know that.
It does sound, though, as if these beats are affecting your composure. When you say you got knocked out on the next hand, were you still in control at that point ? Sometimes it's better to look for a reason not to play a marginal hand if you are inwardly steaming just after losing a big pot. This is a lesson that I learned the hard way the last time I played in decent size tournaments (not least because I did it twice in three days).
Andy.
Thanks again for your suggestions. Prince, my goal was at least going to the money finishers (even 9th, the mimnimum for that tourney)
Here a little summary of that hand:
I had about $6000, my opponent (who won in the bb) had $8500 and $6000 about had the third player involved. Other players in MY TABLE (only 2 tables left) had from $800 to $4500
Limits: $800-$1600
As you know, I put $1600 raising on the button. On the flop I bet $800, turn check, river (MISTAKE!!) bet $1600. I put on 1 hand $4000 and with $2000 left from that point I lost another key hand but overall I lost confidence in the game (MISTAKE N.2). I bet on the river since player in the BB is very aggressive and after I checked on the turn he surely bet even with a second pair or worse (In fact, I thought if he wanted to check-raise me he failed on the 4th card but he would have bet on the river despite his position.
Marco
P.S: Just a curiosity: very next hand I'm dealt A-10 suited (I'm 1 off the button), 2 limpers, I raise and the same winning previous player (now in the SB) call and so the other limpers. Flop: x-K-Q limper1 bet-limper2 folds- I call all-in my last $400 (I catched a gut straight draw and 1 suit) SB calls. TUrn card an ACe (little hope for me), sad river a Queen! SB won (and finished 3rd in the tournament) the pot with a stupid Q-3 offsuit (LOL)
What kind of bankroll do you realistically need to play paradise tournaments over the long run? $10 - $100 stakes? What considerations go into tournament bankrolls? I don't think I have ever read specific advice on size of bankrolls for any tournaments.
It all depends on how good you are of course. Assuming you can make between 10-30% profit, then I still believe you want atleast 10 times the tournament price. So for you to safely play $55 tournies, you would want $550. When you fall below 300 or so I would start dropping down to the lower price tournies. I would never drop below the $11 tournies.
A good player can make money close to 50% of the time, but I think it is possible to have a streak of atleast 10 tournaments where you miss the money.
Ken Poklitar
Im listening to an acrchived audio broadcast of the World Poker Finals. I'm now listening to the ESPN director prep the crowd for the opening. Has this been on ESPN yet? Or, if not, anyone know when? TIA
that is all,
danny boy :o)
I am just wondering if/when the WSOP championship may be broadcasted on Television in Canada. Discovery channel? Learning? TSN (connected with ESPN to some extent)
last year the discovery channel had it but it was not available here in canada. They did show the poker million though on tsn. I suggest just going every so often to the web page and do a search. I assume your a fellow canuck
jg
I am approaching my first year anniversary of playing tournaments. I have played exactly five now. They have all been low buy in events spread between tunica, las vegas, biloxi and vicksburg. Overall I think i have played well. I have not placed in the money yet but have made it into the top 1/3 in each event. Considering the last two had elements of games i had never played before (omaha high and holdem high low) I feel ok with that. Some questions and advice though.
1) Being 300 miles from the nearest card room, would it be a good part of my learning experience to try and get onto some of the internet cardrooms and learn from the tournaments there?
2)Does anyone have any experience with Turbo texas holdem's tournament program and is it a good investment?
3)I seem to be hitting a wall one or two limit increases after the break in these tournaments. Any thoughts on playing the later stages of the tournament. I have went to this level with good, average and low stacks and cannot seem to survive them.
Now for two specific hands.... 1) Moderate to slightly low stacked, I fold a-10 in early position two levels after the break. The flop comes 10-10-x. There were no raises preflop. Good fold?
2) Two hands later I get a-9 in the big blind. No raise pre flop. Flop is A-K-x. I check and fold after a bet and raise. Winner shows K-Q to losers k-10. I think now that this may have been a hand to take a shot at betting early on and that i feared ace bigger kicker to much. Thoughts?
My next poker excursion will be in Tunica the week of 7/4. I plan to play in the tuesday tournament at the Grand. Does anyone know if there are any other tournaments either Monday, tuesday, or wednesday.
With only 5 events, your actual results are pretty meaningless, statistically speaking.
However, your trend of making the top third every time is a potential trouble sign. It suggest that you're playing too tight, and largely getting blinded out of these things (as that's about how long you might last by winning just one or 2 pots and otherwise folding away the blinds). This may not be the case, of course (5 events, can't say yet).
A9 - bet and a raise, fold. But, why didn't you bet the flop yourself? There was no raise preflop and an A flopped. There is every reason at that point to think you're in the lead, as a better A would have often raised rather than limped in. If they still raise and reraise, then you again muck the best hand, but that happens. You might need to play more aggressively in general.
AT - Can't say. Moderately short-stacked doesn't tell me enough. How many big blinds worth of chips did you have? If it were 5 or fewer, I'd have come in for a raise, especially if you've got a tight image at the table. There would be a good shot at stealing the blinds maybe. However, folding AT in early position at a full table is usually correct.
Internet tourneys and real life tourneys are pretty different in my opinion. Playing online won't hurt your real life game, but it might not be that much help either. I have no experience with Turbo tourney software, though I'm actively looking into it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have last years version of turbo texas hold'em tournament program. There is an updated version that I believe has pot limit, tex tears, more no limit blind structures plus improved opponents. I am still deciding if I am going to purchase the upgrade. I probably will.
It is hard for me to say how helpful it is. I have found the No-limit quite easy. If I could do as well in real life as I do in this program I would be rich :)
You can practice certain types of tournaments. For example, if you are having problems with limit tournaments where the blinds go up fast you can setup tournaments like this. The one complaint I have is that I was hoping I would be able to configure the blind structure to be exactly like tournaments I play. The previous version had about 12 different blind structures that was a pretty good cross section of reality. You can always configure the number of opponents, starting chips and round lengths.
I think in your case where you are 300 miles away from a card room the program would be helpful.
Ken Poklitar
The Turbo Tournament software is good practice for having to make decisions in certain situations. It is not live play! It is a good tool for reinforcing fundamentals, such as, how is no-limit and pot-limit different from limit. The robot players are life-like, but can be figured out. I enjoy warming up on it.
In live tournaments, after the rebuy is over, it takes real nerve to play aggressive when most are tightening up. Aggression after the break can give you the lead or bust you. A-x and K-x increase in value. Coming in for a raise is standard, no limping. Tournaments add a whole new layer of strategy on top of your standard ring game. Of course, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Buy a good book.
-KeithO
Definitely play at some of the freeroll online tourneys - tho, of course, there are differences, I've found them invaluable for learning and have gained far more experience than i could have done otherwise, and am sure this is what's helped me to finish in the money in 2 out of 5 (my first ones) live tourneys.
Check out pokerpages.com and pokerspot.com
Good luck!
Pokerpages NL online tourney:
The blinds are 50-100 and there are about 40 players left. I have T1600 in tourney chips. It is a short handed table with 6 players. I'm in the cut-off seat with Q-10 offsuit. UTG, a player with T5000 in chips limps, the next player (Player1) limps. He has about T3000 in chips. I limp. Button has about T2000 in chips. He also limps. Both blinds limp and check.
Flop comes J-10-10 with two clubs. Both blinds check, UTG bets T100. Player1 raises another T100. I re-raise T500. All others fold including UTG. Player1 cold calls T500 raise.
Turn comes an offsuit deuce. Now player1 shoves all-in. What do I do?
Results later.
Thank you ahead of time...
Lawrence Ng
Pre-flop, I probably muck QTo.
Although this is pokerpages, lets try to figure out what the UTG limper could have.
He could have JJ but he probably raises preflop or checkraises you all-in on the flop. He could have JT. He could have AT, KT or even the same QT. Now how could the 2 help him? If he has 22, does he call the flop bet? Would he limp with T2? So realistically there are 4 hands that he could have that has you beat.
There are various hands that he might have that include either a T, a J, a straight draw or even a flush draw.
So I would call.
Ken Poklitar
If I've done my sums right, you only have 700 left and the pot has 2200 that you can win. You're not close to the money yet and you'll be in a very weak position if you fold here with the blinds this high (you don't say if they're soon to increase).
Your chances of winning must be higher than 7/29. It's a clear call, IMO.
Mel is right. You've already put in half your money, and there's no way to be sure that he even has you beat, let alone drawing dead. This being pokerpages, I'd say there's a better than 50% chance you're ahead. Call.
If this were real life, it would be a much tougher decision, but considering the pot size, you'd still have to call unless you can fold because of what you know about the opponent.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Without looking at the other responses, I would have raised all in on the flop. You need to bet enough to discourage the flush and straight draws.
The way it came down, I would call.
Before I post the results, I want to thank everyone for their comments.
As I had only 700 left in chips, it was most indeed a clear call for me to shove the rest of my chips in on the turn. I had trips with a good kicker and that was a mighty hand 6-handed. I think the only mistake I made was limping into the pot with Q-10, but even that mistake I think is marginal given all the other limpers. Given that I was short stacked compared to most of the other players, I could afford to let them draw, but make it slightly more expensive for them to do so. If I am the best right I have well over a 2.5-1 edge.
Player1 had A-10 offsuit and took it with the bigger kicker. I busted out and came 33rd.
I don't think I would've played it any differently live.
Lawrence Ng
That's exactly the reason you shouldn't be playing a WEAK 2nd place hand like QT in a tournament with callers in front. BE very weary of any hands containing a T or J they are born loosers.
Lawrence wrote: "I think the only mistake I made was limping into the pot with Q-10, but even that mistake I think is marginal given all the other limpers."
I would call it worse than marginal. Not terrible, but worse than marginal. The only reason to play a hand like this is when you can know where you stand postflop, i.e., that either you're ahead, and thereby maximizing your win, that you're behind and need to fold, or that they are so weak it doesn't matter where you are because you can steal the pot. It is always hard to know these things accurately, and it's damn near impossible to do online. You need to be a great player to play these hands profitably in the real world, and I'm not sure anyone can play them profitably online.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You know the old adage concerning No-Limit Hold-em, beware the early position limper! In this case, you had two of them and they both had you covered. You limped with a "trouble hand" and the worst case scenario happened, you caught a big piece of the flop. It all goes back to your initial decision, to play the hand. This is the area of my game that I have been really working hard to master. I have finally recognized that when temptation to play a hand with an inferior kicker or call a raise cold with a hand that I intended to play before the raise, wells up inside of me----I muck the damn thing! It is a very difficult thing to do at the beginning, but that decision to do so, has ended up being the correct decision an overwhelming amount of the time. Good Luck!
You should have been all in on the flop and made the draws pay. Since you are in with this piece of cheese.
DON'T PLAY QT if you want to be a successful player. You may be up againse AT OR KT what ever you are committed now and ought to get all the money is.
In this tournament you can be up against just about anything - this is the gathering place of weasels.
ok. 14 players, 2 tables of 7, 10 get paid (top 5 good money, 6-10 still pretty good).
blinds 1500 - 3000. ive got 11500. (total in play is 175000).
im small blind, button and big blind have 30k each.
button open raises to 6k, i look down and see AK (offsuit if that matters).
do i basically commit all my chips here?
i didnt want to so i passed ( and finished 7th), but im thinking if i want to be a serious tournament threat i need to pull the trigger here and try to get chips for the final table.
what do you think?
brad
I think you know what you should have done. Unless the button is a total rock who doesn't understand position, you have a great chance of being in front and only a small chance of being in trouble (v AA, KK). Raise all-in (raise rather than call to discourage the BB) and good luck !
Andy.
The button could have anything. He's most likely on a steal. Of all the hands he can have, only against AA and KK you are in trouble.
I think you have a clear all-in. If you had doubled up here maybe you would have ended up 3rd.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I call the raise and bet the flop, about 98% of the time.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Mmmmhhh I disagree here, Greg.
Don't you think that since the original raise was only the double of the BB, by just calling you are making it a good opportunity for the BB to call the raise, as he will be getting 5:1 on his call and of course, much more in implied odds ? (if he is good enough, that can mean several hands)
If he were the BB, the SB had folded, I'd agree with you. But you really don't want the BB to come in, so I'd prefer going all-in now and making sure he doesn't.
Comments?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
For some reason I was thinking brad was the big blind, even though he clearly told us he was the small.
Yes, reraise all-in to get it heads-up with the button, and hope he doesn't get lucky. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Since it was the button that raised it is quite possible it is a steal attempt. AK is most likely the best hand at this point and going all-in is probably a good play.
AK is the toughest hand in NL. It looks so good but is a slight dog to 22. It really is a drawing hand.
If there are several short stacks that are about to be busted then folding is not the worst thing in the world.
Ken Poklitar
Damn, another KEY hand in my poor opinion. Here, with not many chips left I probably put all my chips and hoped for the best (then losing the hand...:-) because the raiser was in steal position and nevertheless you had the 3rd best starting hand (or close to it)
Marco
Just want some feedback on my main thoughts after reading Mc Evoys tourney book I believe these to be the major key points in my mind to excell in tournies ( assuming your poker skills are up to par) 1) adaptabilty to the changing environment
2) Strategic selective aggression
3) Awareness of the present and (about to be) future transition
4) " discipline "
I like Toms comment that you dont need a big hand just the best hand. To me as the saying goes; "Luck Favours The Prepared Mind." This to me is the essense of Tournies..
I really would like some feedback on this post.I have been preparing for a year to educate myself in tourny play and am hell bent when I sit at my first table I expect the best out of me
jg
I've only recently read McEvoy's book and it surprised me, I thought it was very good. It's helped me in the Paradise single-table games.
However, although it may be too late, I don't think you're going about this in the right way. By all means prepare before you take the plunge, but for a year ? You need a regular cycle of study, play, re-consider. Start playing right now, and don't be disappointed if it doesn't come together straight away as this is very unlikely until you gain real-world experience.
Andy.
Andy...I live in ontario and there are no tournies anywhere within 5hrs drive. I got the bug last year at the wsop and since then have bought software, books etc and have actaully had to cancel trips that I planned to play in some tournies in michigan because of work commitments. So when i say I`ve been preparing a year i mean dedicated in my study etc and any chance to play fell through. In late june I`ve got some time and I`m heading to soaring eagle for a few days to play the tournies and then heading to vegas for the conference july 6 and playing plenty of small tournies.
jg
Ouch ! Now that's a bad beat. In that case I would recommend playing some of the single-table tournaments on PP, the players aren't great but a little better than in the freerolls, and you can get some good short-handed/short-stack practice.
Good luck,
Andy.
I would add one more: Be totally aware of which of your opponents are and are not following each of your 4 key points. I've seen many good ring players do well in tournaments until the conditions change and they are left behind.
JohnnyD
your time was appreciated ...andy...johnny...rounder The addition of any thoughts fills the puzzle quicker..
jg
You can't win or cash in a tournament unless you make the final table. Make it at all costs.
I have won tournaments from the worst concievable positions. If you bust out you are not in with a chance I am not saying to be over tight there are times to loosen up but you have to know when to dump a hand.
You ought to have a few goals in a tournament.
Don't make mistakes.
Make the break.
Make the final table.
Win the tournament.
I wish to play a $1000 buy-in 7 card stud tourney--1 add rebuy (limit double than my usual standards).
Aside a basic strategy (I think I know it decently) do you have some suggestions to give me?
That is: aggressive approach hoping to build a big stack, very tight, etc?
Opposition is among the best in European scene and I have no a great intention to rebuy, since there is a $1000 add-on more.
Comments very appreciated
Marco
While the play may be loose early, with lots of multi-way pots, in my experience stud tournies are all about stealing the antes. You need to be thinking about your chances of stealing every time. Even if you have nothing, if you have the highest upcard, you should be considering a steal. Also, do you have the highest live upcard? I've stolen many times with something like a 9 in the door, because the higher upcards are duplicated (e.g., 2 jacks and 2 kings are out, plus 3 lower cards). Of course, if the pots are being contested multiway, then so be it, you can't steal. However, here that isn't the way most stud tournies play out, so be thinking about stealing a lot.
Once you get good at stealing, the next trick is knowing what to do when your steal attempt fails. If somebody cold-calls, do you bet again or not? Pay careful attention to how each player follows-up when they call. Some will fold on 4th street if they don't improve. Some will always call on 4th, but will fold on 5th street (for the double-bet) if they don't improve. Some will try and resteal if they think you haven't improved. Time to play good poker.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
n/t
I am at the final table in a limit hold em tournament. The first round had just started and I am 4th in the chip count. In the bb I get Kd Qd. Everyone is playing extra tight right now. All fold to UTG who raises. All fold to me and I call. I thought about re-raising, but I wanted to see the flop first. Flop comes down 9d 7d 3s. I check-raise the better, and he calls. Turn comes 7s. I bet, he calls. River Ac. I bet (down to my last 1k) he calls. He shows me A-2 off-suit. Next hand I go all in and take 9th place. Did I play it right? TL
I think that if this was a ring game, then your play was fine. But this is a tournament and at this point you don't have enough chips to get to fancy.
Assuming UTG has a reasonable stack, you need to put him on some type of hand ( although it turns out he has crap). I would not want to re-raise him at this point with KQs.
On the flop I would not check-raise. Although you have a wonderful draw and 2 overcards you need to decide if you are committed to this hand. I think I might bet and see what happens. If he raises you need to decide if he also only has overcards or if he has an overpair.
After he calls your check-raise will he fold to your turn bet? You still have nothing and now your draw is less likely to hit.
I would check/fold the river. You have nut nothing.
Ken Poklitar
Where's the best place to play online tourneys (apart from Paradise) ?
thanks!
Try pokerspot.com and planetpoker.com and for free ones pokerpages.com.
Although Pokerspot has had problems with their cashouts recently so it's up to you...
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
here is a story from the WSOP main event.
clearly it is one of those remarkable hands that do occur very occasionally. when i first read it i thought there was no escape but upon reflection i'm not so sure.
the hand is as follows:
One flop story from yesterday. Flop is 4,8,Q. Jak Arama is betting with Qs and 4s, two pair. The turn is another 4 and he moves all-in. Both call. 8s full is losing to Qs full ! Jak is dead last...until another 4 pops up on the river.
now, aside from the fact that playing Q4s is probably a little dodgy i'm wondering about the guy who went broke with the 8s.
before anyone gets excited i don't know the chip counts or the blinds - only that it happened on day one, so for the sake of argument let's hypothesise that they all had $15,000 and the blinds were $50 - $100. i also don't know who acted 1st so let's assume that the 8s had position throughout the hand.
i also should say that i too would undoubtedly have gone broke with the 8s as most people would - i'm interested if the top players would have too.
my point is the flop has come Q 8 4 and the player concerned has flopped middle set. there's been one bet and two calls, the turn brings a 4. there's an allin bet and a call - surely at this point consideration has to be given to the possibility of being up against QQ or 44 - especially from the caller of the allin bet - what else could they conceivably have held?
it reminds me of a famous story about doyle brunson who raised preflop with AA got 2 callers, saw a flop of A 4 2 - bet and got 2 callers, turn 2, DB checked, one bet and one call and doyle folded correctly deducing he must be up against quads. (the river was a 4 and quad fours beat quad twos) - i know we're not all doyle but i think a pass of the 8s can be done if the player took the time to evaluate the situation and if of course the scenario was as i set out above re position and chip counts
thoughts?
I don't think many top players would come out of this hand with any money the Q's and 8's full would surely go broke to the quad 4's. I do think IF there were any top players in this hand the Q4 would have folded pre flop as they wouldn't be letting a piece of cheese in cheap - but that's just me.
Q4 Thats a premium hand as far as Jac is concerned.Certainly NOT a piece of cheese!!
Don't worry about Jac and his Q4 - that's the way he plays. It's good to see him in action as he had a very nasty accident not long ago.
If you can get away from the set of 8s _and_ not throw them away in a similar case when you're winning, then you're a hell of a player. Better than me.
Andy.
Doesn't say when all the money went in and also was the Q4 in the BB. But in any case, if I held the 88 I would have gone broke on the hand.
JohnnyD
I would guess that 90%+ players would lose in this situation.
Since we don't know the suits or the betting pattern it is hard to say what I would have done if I had 88. If there is a bet and a caller in front of me on the flop, I am going to make a nice raise with 88. I would probably get re-raised all-in by QQ and lose.
Ken Poklitar
Yes, Jeff, you are being too harsh. Most of us would stay with the 88 till the bitter end....probably you too. Essy to pick at a play in hindsight. Jim
1) - i know that i would have gone broke too
2) - i don't know the chip positions and who acted last etc
3) - my comments are based on the PRESUMPTION that the player with pocket 8s was last to act and was facing an all-in bet and an all-in call whilst looking at a board of Q 8 4 4. Up against TWO hands that are willing to commit all their chips. Whilst the first bettor can have a variety of hands surely the caller MUST have QQ or 44 - the more i think about it the more convinced I am. does anyone agree.....:)!?
After thinking about it, I know I played this poorly, but I wanted to get some feedback anyway.
16 players left, I have the 2nd stack at my table, with about 5500 chips, the leader has about 16000(!) and the rest of the chips are evenly distributed around the table, about 2100 each. Blinds are 150-300.
I've been stealing a lot of blinds from all positions, but tightened up when someone commented about me stealing all the time. Now I'm going back into steal mode, after I've shown some good hands.
I'm UTG, and am planning on raising my standard 800, when I pick up AQo. I raise 800. All fold to the chip leader who just calls. He just got moved to my table, so probably wouldn't put me on stealing from all over the place, since this is the first hand he's seen me play. Also, he's been playing sheriff, trying to run down everybody, with semi-decent hands like QT or slightly worse.
Everyone else folds.
Flop: 9TJ rainbow.
I bet 1500. In hindsight this sucks. I have 8 outs plain and simple.
He calls (duh).
Turn is an offsuit 2. Now I decide I really don't want to continue in the tourney, so I go all in. He calls (duh).
River is a 3.
I won't say results, but it really doesn't matter. All I know is that even if (and I'm not saying I didn't) I made it to the top 5 and qual. for the weekend tourney, I couldn't play anyway, since I'll be playing real poker in Biloxi instead :)
My broader question is how to play against the BIG stacks in a tourney? My gut feeling is to only play when you have a hand, though I'm sure this is situation dependent.
Thanks for responses,
Bill
Well, you are right. It does depends but usually, you want to have a big hand to go to war against another leader in the end of the tourney.
Raising with the AQo was fine. It really sucks that he is the one that called, then again you did say he was playing sheriff. In that case, if you feel there is a good chance of him calling, then folding isn't a bad play, IMO. Waiting for him to have folded to steal or that you are in a better position and especially, position on him if he is going to call.
So you raised and caught a part of the flop but not much. What you really do not want to do is exactly what you did i.e. : make big semi-bluffs bet against a guy who, first, has enough chips to bust you and second, is prone to calling you because he has decide to bust everybody.
So I think once he calls your bet on the flop you should be done with it. I would.
I would not want to bust on this hand.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Ive whined enough about my bad beat in the WSOP.. I would like comments on this hand I played pretty badly.
I have around 10000 chips.. in second position I am dealt QQ.. blinds 75-150. I make it 500 to go. Late position makes it 1000 to go. A few hours earlier he had made a similar mini reraise and shown down AA. I am certainly not going broke with QQ at this stage and honestly believe I am losing here, but I feel my implied odds are good enough to justify a call, which I do. (everyone else had folded).
Flop comes QQ9. Yum yum.
I check.. opponent bets 1000. I call.
Turn 4.
I check, he checks.
River 9. (how I wished he held 99)
I bet 2000, he calls I show QQ and his KK go flying into the muck.
How could I played this hand better? As I was pretty sure he held AA or KK should I have bet the flop? Should I have passed preflop anyways? What about check raising the flop?
We talk alot about how to play marginal hands.. but playing the nuts is often more difficult.
Comments appreciated,
Cheers,
Keith
should have passed preflop - would you have called with 5s hoping to flop a set?
checkraising the flop may have been the play if you're aiming for all his money coz he'll either put you on a queen and fold or decide you're out of line playing JT and raise - just depends, i think squeezing what you did out of it was probably better and gave him the chance to catch up and hit his king.
it's very annoying when you play a monster fast - just like you've been playing all those bluffs and drawing hands - and have everyone fold
If I had made the initial raise with 55 (which I wouldn't have done).. yes I would have called the reraise of 500.. although Im only getting less than 4/1 to hit a set (the only way I would have proceeded after the flop was if a Q showed) I think Im getting enough implied odds to call.
Im pretty sure that if the flop had been Q99 I would have busted him.
Cheers,
Keith
yeah - fair enough
initially i thought he reraised you another 1000 rather than 500 - but remember you may be 4-1 to hit a set but you're 8.5 - 1 to flop a set which is really what you need as you're pretty confident he'll bet out at any flop with AA or KK (evidently as he bet into a flop with 2 Qs - probably the single worst flop for KK that doesn't contain an Ace) in which case you'd have to fold if you don't trip up.
it's true though that you have the potential to break him but i don't think there's much wrong with passing the Qs if you're that certain you're behind
out of interest do you think you'd have been able to get away from a flop of K Q 4?
I would have paid him off for a small amount (obviously if the K is on the flop he is more likely to hold AA than KK), but I certainly wouldn't have gone broke.
If you check-raise the flop he is going to be leary that you have one queen.
Betting out on the flop is an interesting option. If you bet 1000, he will most likely raise to see where you are. You call the raise and check the turn hoping for him to bet again. If he checks the turn then you bet a nominal amount on the river like you did. This may get you 1k or 2k more.
You said that his mini-raise smelt of a big hand because he did it earlier with AA. We have had discussions of raise amounts (i.e. vary the amounts vs standard amounts) and this looks to be an example where a player may have varied his raises such that good players were able to notice his big hands vs regular hands vs steals. Am I reading too much into your statement?
Ken Poklitar
Did you consider betting all-in on the river? It might look like a steal to him, as he might figure no way you'd overbet like that with a full-house. Of course, it all depends upon what level you put him at.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Putting this guy in the "right" classification.
I play this hand differently based on my assessment of this players level.
Ya know Keith betting the flop with this hand into a good player might be better than checking it. I like to make a smallish bet in this situation a good player will worry more about a chack than a bet here - you probably were not going to double through here but I have been in these situations many times and the weak looking bet on the flop usually brings out the aggression of some guy with an over pair.
Mike
If Dewey pushes all in preflop, do you think Carlos calls?
No.
.
With KQs heads up and a chip lead?
Not even a little chance?
If I recall, that would be about a 2 million dollar bet. No way he calls, but Dewey made the right play, aces heads up is a trapping hand. As did Carlos after the flop.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
Dewey(a legendary, albeit overlooked, player) limps on the button, Carlos raises 100K, then Dewey goes all in for 2KK more???!!
As you said, "With KQs heads up and a chip lead". Carlos has a 2-1 chip lead over a superior and vastly more experienced opponent. No way he's going to essentially go broke in an essentially unraised pot, unlike some former world champion I could name.
What's more interesting to debate is Dewey's all in call on the flop; flop JcTd3c, CM bet 100K, DT raise 400K, CM raise 1.5KK. A very dangerous flop for AdAh, esp. as not a lot of money went in pre-flop. Dewey's gotta think he's still ahead, but also has to figure the worst hand Carlos can have is AcTc.
Based on how Dewey had been playing, I doubt Carlos would be getting cute w/QJ, unlike how he might have against some former world champion I could name.
FWIW in Dewey's position, I call but hate it. I would've likely re-raised 400K pre-flop. Had I just smoothed pre-flop, I would've raised Carlos' bet out on the flop to 800K. If Carlos just calls that, I go all in for 1.1KK when the board pairs 3's on the turn.
If Carlos re-raises me all in(after the theoretical raise to 800K on the flop), I dunno what I dew :) CM's certainly representing a big hand at that point, and I still like my skill & exp. edge even down 4-1(assuming I'm DT).
Remember what Doyle sez: With AA you'll likely win a small pot or lose a big one, AND never go broke in an unraised pot(unlike some former world champion I could name).
... name some names :-)
Andy.
nt
I agree, Dewey's call has been overlooked. However, with 1 million in the bank, it's an easy call.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
If Carlos has a 6-1 chip lead sure he might call. But I believe he only had a 3-2 or 4-2 lead.
Ken Poklitar
Hypothetical,
If Dewey pushes in preflop and Carlos holds KK. Does he call then? Remember the chips at the time where 4mil Carlos, 2mil Dewey. I would consider folding. I don't know if I would, but I would use up the clock.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
No, but anyone can be a Monday morning quarterback. There are many better ways for Tomko to play the hand, including the way he did.
Andy.
That's why I love this forum. It gives us all a chance to be monday morning quarterbacks. Swapping plays, getting feedback, criticizing ect...
that is all,
danny boy :o)
Can any of you tell me who won the World Series final event?
Who finished at the final table?
Where can I read an account of the final table developments?
Thanks
DLS
Go to http://pokerpages.com/tournament/result1748.htm and you can find the info you request.
Ken Poklitar
Hello,
I was wondering if some experienced tournament players could help me with a couple questions.
I have been working hard in the last few months on my tournament skills. I have been entering the small limit Hold Em ($45 buy in with one optional $45 rebuy) and Stud Tournaments ($35 single buy in) at Canterbury Park. Usually between 70 and 100 players enter these.
I practice with Wilson's Tournament Texas Hold 'Em and do pretty well, but I have seen it posted in this forum and RGP that Wilson TTH is easy to beat.
I finished 7th in the second Hold Em tourney I ever entered, which was great.
However, now I am finding myself in the maddening situation of finishing tournament after tournament just out of the money. My last 6 finishes were between 11th and 15th place. The top 9 get paid. For weeks, I have been making it to the last 2 tables, then dropping out.
I try to practice sound tournament strategy, adapting my play to the players at the table, not getting into big confrontations with big stacks, attacking small stacks, ect.
It seems I get through the middle rounds OK, but never build up a huge stack. I haven't played perfectly by any means and when I make a bad mistake I know it.
As the limits get higher there always seems to be that "one hand" (very often a AA-QQ or AK hand that goes bad) that cripples me and puts me into survival mode. The following situation repeatedly comes up.
I end up with T2000 at limits of 1000/2000 and the BB coming soon, raise all in on a hand like AQs, get called by a BB with a something like 69o and lose the showdown. Boom. Out 13th. I also tried not going all in in the above situation, but then just end up getting blinded out. Getting blinded out seemed worse than getting cracked by the big lick!
A couple times, I experimented with being much more aggressive in earlier rounds, but that just resulted in being out 50th instead of 11th. Every week it seems there is some goofball accumulating chips on a rush playing everything. However, I notice it is never the same player and they often don't make the final table.
I have only been playing cardroom poker for 1 year, so I know I have a lot to learn. I have read 2+2's tournament book by Suzuki and was wondering what other tournament books you more experienced players might recommend for someone like me.
I know no one can tell me exactly what to do here, but I was wondering if some other tournament players out there found themselves finishing just out the money time after time and what kind of things they did to break out of it.
Thanks for any responses!
Dan
Most of these small limit tournaments become "crapshoots". But there's always one level that seems to make a huge diference. At our weekly Gila River Tuesday night tournament, it's the 50/100 blinds limit. If you don't build a good stack at this limit, it seems you don't have much chance of making it to the good money. I tend to take more chances and play more agressively at this level. Sometimes it causes me to go home early, but if I survive this level, my chances of making money are good. There's very little satisfaction on making it far in the tournament, but not having enough chips to make any plays. Being blinded off is no fun at all. So, look at your structure, pick a level and take some chances.
JohnnyD
Maybe you should gamble when you feel you'll just end up short.
You have 3000 and must post 1000 big blind which leaves you with 2000. Cutoff raises to 2000 and you have for example 69o. You call the extra 1000 and bet the other one regardless of the flop. If you win you will have 3 + 3 + sb. Then when you get AQ you know you won't get called by 69. Plus the next few times you are in a blind at this critical stage people will think twice about raising you.
It sounds like you may be playing a little too tight in the middle rounds. I try to stay at the average stack size at each level. If I'm an average stack in the late middle rounds I will take a few more chances to bounce up to big stack status. I know I'm being vague but its the best way I can explain it. I may raise under the gun with a cheezy pair or fast play a draw. Surefire way to dent your chip stack, or bounce up to bigstack status. I don't look to just get in the money, rather to finish top 3.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
(n/t)
Thanks to everyone for the responses, I appreciate it!
In the long run, I think the trick is to play each hand, one at a time, and play each one as perfectly as possible. When the dealer is gathering the discards and shuffling, you should be thinking and getting ready for the next hand. Look around again at each player. Determine what they're thinking, and how they're likely to play their hands. Who is going to play any reasonable hand, who will fold anything but a monster, who is going to try and steal, etc. Now, when the cards are dealt, look at the players behind you. Which ones are going to fold? Which will call, raise, call a raise? By the time it's your turn to act, you want to know what to do with every hand that you might see when you first look. Sometimes, I know I'm going to raise no matter what 2 cards I see (not too often, however). Frequently, there are a range of hands I'm looking for with which I will raise, and I'll probably fold all the others. Unless a bunch of players have limped in already, there usually aren't many hands that I'll limp with.
Here's why I think playing like this helps me. The thing that a lot of winning tourney players do is steal the blinds. They successfully steal the blinds much more than their fair share. This is because they not only steal the blinds when the get dealt a big hand, but other times when the time is right. Now, I'm not raising the blinds in limit HE time-after-time. When I raise, I often get respect (fear hopefully) and do steal them. If you've been stealing a lot, even if you've shown down big hands, you are more likely to get called next time. Think about these things before you look. If you're likely to get called, you steal less and raise for value more. And a million other things that I won't even try to get into.
I generally don't like thinking at the level of "I'm gonna double up this orbit or go broke trying". Sometimes I do get short-stacked and I am mostly looking for the best possible hand to go all-in with before the blinds reach me, but I'm never sitting there with 8x the big blind in my stack, feeling short, and deciding I'm going to double-up or get-up right away. I think that's not a great style, but merely a crutch that is better than no strategic thoughts at all.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I was playing at the MS trnmt on Sunday 7cs. There were about 20 players left pay 16 I believe when I'm the bring'in with the 2s $500. Big Stack (bs) completes the bet to $1500. Everyone drops and it's to me I look at my hole cards and I have (AsTs)2s. I call (1s out). I have about $10k he has about $100k. bs has been playing almost every hand and is on a run 3 full houses, flushes, st8's etc. He has (xx)7c5d and I catch the Ac for a pair of A's. I bet $1500 bs raises. I call. Next card he gets a 2h and I get a 6c making the board look like me (AsTs)2sAc6c bs (xx)7c5d2h. He bets $3k and I go all in. Next card is a 6s for me and a 9h for him. The river I catch a blank and he fills up. I assume he had trips going into the river and paired his 2.
My question is should I have known he had trips on 4th street?? The reason I ask this was because a guy behind me said he would of never raised my A without trips!!
My other question is should I have folded on 4th street?
Paul
If he has really been playing very loose "almost every hand" I don't think you can get away from this hand.
First, you don't have to challenge a big stack like that, loose or not (especially when you are close to the money). He has ten times your bankroll, he can suffer many losses.
Second, why did you call in a heads-up pot with a flush draw (ok, you have 2 overcards but 2 overcards most of the time are nothing vs a pair). Playing a draw heads-up is to take the worse of it. Your only hope is to catch a 4th suit and whether you don't improve in flush direction you donate your money. If you catch an Ace (like u picked up) you are committed until the end and if he started with a pair you are slightly dog (in case he've started with a pair and has 2 pair in 4th).
Running vs a rolled up is bad fortune and you have no defence but I think your call in 3rd is out of order in that point, vs that player (even worse if he was loose--he is willing to not abandon his hand despite the cards) and in a heads-up situation.
Only my poor opinion (defending a bring-in is one of the most difficult situations in 7 card)
Best luck to us at next tournaments :-)
Marco
I like your play. Given your description of the player, no way I get away from your situation without going all-in. If he hadn't played a hand in a while, and you put him on a real hand when he raised, then I probably muck on 3rd street.
Once you do call, even though he's being a bully, you probably have to catch an A or a spade on 4th to continue. You did. The only question in my mind in that spot is how do I get all my money in the middle. 16th place in that tourney pays next to nothing, barely even the buyin. First place pays on the order of 20-30x the buyin. I would go for it here, rather than try to save a few chips. Plus, if you get aggressive once you pair your A, there is some chance he folds, while if you play it passive, he'll probably keep betting and put you all-in anyway. So, I think you have a better chance of NOT going all-in if you stay aggressive on 4th street than if you play if slow.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
the main reason to play this hand and get all in is something the others didnt mention but may have thought of. this guy has been playing evry hand as you say. no longer can you wait and hope to pick up antes and enhance your postion at the table. you must play a hand or get broke. the only thing id do different is raise him back on 4th when he popped you and not give him a chance to check it back on 5th. your not going to get out anyway so play it early.
Thank you for all your great answers.
I don't feel bad about going all-in for a few reasons I hadn't played a hand for quite a while about two rounds and this guy had probably won 10 out of the 14 hands. I didn't have enuf to go to the end which I try to calculate to make my move. The rounds were just about to change to $5oo antes's 2.5k & 5k or greater I'm not sure. I figured once I paired the A I would go all in which I did that Zee reminded of. So I went all in on 4th if this guy had not been playing every hand I would of dropped on 3rd street probably. I don't know it was time to make a decision and I didn't want to make it with nothing soon. This guy took my game plan right out of my hands as Zee said and I just couldn't wait much longer. As Fossil said 16th place hardly pays anything and I figured I had to win a hand soon to get to the final table and that was my objective not 16th place.
paul
My god it's like traveling to a different dimension.
Imagine sitting at a typical 3-6 game in California. Suddenly, everyone decides to change the game to no limit. What a great idea! You LOVE playing no limit.
You are the only one at the table who makes any adjustment whatsoever to your playing style.
Everyone else continues to check and call (all-in!) with anything preflop. They pay no attention to position, they limp with anything and then when they get a big hand like AA, they limp too! They are trying to slow play. Then when the flop comes 9TJ six-handed, they call all-in! Limping with AA to trap six people and then being unable to get away from it on the flop is just about the worst strategy possible in no limit.
The 3-6 players who were wild and crazy aggressive 3-6 players continue to play the same way. They raise with marginal holdings preflop. However, since this is now no-limit, it just means that they raise all-in. Any big ace is fair game for raising all-in. Any ace is of course a perfect hand to CALL all-in. Any pair as well.
Total disregard for kickers. Once you see the flop, ANY piece of it is enough to go all-in. Middle pair, top pair, back door flush draw, ace high, you name it.
It is exactly like playing 3-6. Players use the same play except that every bet is all-in. They call call call and never raise. They pay no attention to stack size, pot size, anything! Limp with 55 UTG, and overcall all-in after the cutoff and the button get all their chips in the middle.
This is amazing.
I wish we could play all these people for real money in a no-limit ring game. My god.
natedogg
PS: Of course, I've played about six of these and never last more than about half way through. The problem with this format is that if you are the only one playing poker instead of bingo, it means you have to survive confrontations with the best hand dozens and dozens of times. Eventually you go broke when somebody hits his two-outer. It's showdown no-limit poker. Very bizarre. Also, the no-limit player's biggest weapons (bluffing and position) are seriously compromised if not removed. You simply cannot bluff in this game. I can't even imagine how lucky you have to get to win one of these things. I may be running a little cold tho. Of the six times I've played, I've been busted with AK vs. K4, AK vs. J7, set under set TWICE and a big pair vs. bigger pair.
I don't think there's any practical application of what you learn from these tourneys outside of that venue. There is no game like this anywhere.
natedogg
I think you are being over dramatic natedog. I see this type of play rarely on Pokerpages. When the tourney first started, sure, I saw this type of insanity. But, no more. Now that you can't play the ring games until the tourney's are over, people are chilling out. If they go all in and lose, they are sitting on their ass for 3 hours. Just my 2 cents.
Pokerpages has increased my No Limit skill tenfold. I've won 4 round one's outright and came in second once. According to their website, I am now qualified to play in the TOC, which I am considering. See ya in the tourneys! :o)
that is all,
danny boy :o)
Uhm, in part I disagree with you. The games are very long there (4-5 even 6 hours) and in tournaments I partecipated I found a bunch of good players.
Yes, pokerpages tourneys are not similar to live no-limit games because people either try to survive playing a too tight poker or pump and pump to get lucky and to build their bankroll. And in the second case I saw an unbelievable raising war with almost nothing (speaking about starting hands).
But I can say that in some hands I recognized my flaws when involved against good opponents.
I quitted those games because are very long and to claim the prize you have to be a pretty good player and be very very lucky.
PS: Is it more difficult to finish first (winning all the 3 sessions) or to reach a WSOP final table? I appreciate your comments about.
Marco
Without experience at the world series, and based on print and internet coverage. It is much more difficult to finish at the World Series final table. Just look at the lineups.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
To reach the win in round 3 is the equivalent of winning a 1,000 participant tourny.
I played a bunch of the pokerpages tournies to try to get into the wsop. Although I really enjoy them, I no longer have the patience to try to get into them. I would rather play a PP tourney and get some money from it.
So I have no recent experience in these tournies. I made round 2 several times and I did notice the quality better in those.
I find the play in round 1 to be quite weak and equivalent to what you sometimes find at your local NL unlimited rebuy tournaments. I do believe better players will make the top spots more often in the long run.
Ken Poklitar
You are correct in part.However i do feel that the stronger players can make the final tables more often.I dont claim to be one,but i play quite a few of these tournies and my strategy does not differ that much,i play pretty tight.I would imagine i have now played in excess of 100 of these(at least if feels like that)and have failed on only 3 occasions to reach the break(where typically 60-70 are still alive).I consisently make the final 3 tables and have failed to reach the second round of the TOC qualifiers on only 2 occasions.I made the final round of the WSOP qualifier and feel that these tournies have helped my game.
I would stress again i am not a great player and probably quite predictable,but playing tight whilst watching those all around going all in with top pair no kicker seems to get you in the top 30-40 every time(as long as your aa holds up of course).
Keep plugging away and they can become quite enjoyable.
P.S.Made the final table in last nights 9.15 tournie short stacked went all in with KQ suited only one caller and was beaten with his 23 off when a 2 hit the flop(He wasnt chip leader or the big blind either)!Oh well!
I've made it into Round 2 on pokerpages 3 times now, but really have no clue how to go about it! A limit Omaha 8 tourney seems to be such a crapshoot. I have a v basic idea of which hands are playable preflop (tho every time i fold s'thing ugly i woulda had the nuts, it seems, lol)and am vaguely aware of ideas like watching out for being quartered.
But the blinds seem to go up so quickly, and everything seems to change so much on the turn and river cards that luck seems way more important than skill.
I'm playing again this w'end so all help v gratefully received!
do some reading so you have a better foundation. then perhaps be more agressive when shorthanded in a pot. good luck from there.
I have been playing a lot of Omaha/8 tourneys at Paradise. I find it IS much more of a horserace / crapshoot than the Holdem tourneys. I often find I am low in chips in the early middle rounds while the others slug it out - mostly they just trade chips around, but one or two manage to (through shear luck I'm sure) end up with a few more than the rest. I am just not willing to play the hands the others do.
I do think however it is important to see as many flops as you can as cheap as you can - even with marginal hands. The reason you can do this in the early rounds is because there are so many callers.
I think you must dismiss the four legged hand qualifier. Three legged is plenty! If you wait for only the great hands you'll find yourself in the later rounds every time - but with the smallest stack.
Ray Zee won't toot his own horn but his book is a great eye opener. If you read it, you'll feel a lot more comfortable with the game. Joe
I'm afraid I disagree with almost everything you have said :-).
I have been doing consistently well on Paradise in the split games (not with a very large sample but I still feel confident) by sitting fairly tight for the first few rounds and playing those hands which can make the nuts (preferably with re-draws or two-way potential) rather than the second nuts (doom !).
Seeing too many flops with cheesy hands will both dribble chips away and cause you to be on the wrong end of the nuts vs. second nuts showdowns.
The other key is aggressive play later on, but that's a separate issue.
Andy.
seeing as many flops as possible will just dribble away chips. I can agree about 3 legs, but those 3 need be very strong. just recently started playing these, very pleased with results of tight passive early stages - aggressive tight, later stages. Jim
15 players left (9 in the money) blinds 500, 1000 $120,000 of chips in play (8,000 average stack) 5 small stacks left
I have 5400 in chips after posting BB
MP (fish) limps in. He has been at the table only a few hands and has limped in about every one of them, but will give up post flop fairly easily.
All fold, I check in BB with K,5s. I then check in the dark.
Flop comes 9,9,J (one a spade but I don't remember which)
He is about to bet and I am about to fold. Then something kinda weird and hard to explain happens. He sees me fiddling with my chips and the way it happens he thinks I am going to lead bet. He didn't hear me check in the dark. When I tell him I checked I kind make it appear I am going to call. He does a double take and decides not to bet. I am almost positive he was going to bluff and decided not to.
Turn 4s
I semi-bluff here thinking I have a very good chance to pick up the pot. If I don't, I have outs to a K or a spade.
Yikes! He raises me
I fold. I have 3400 in chips left which should get me through two rounds and I have a good chance of making the money. I have no clue what he has (4,4 As,Xs 9,x) and I could be drawing dead.
Is a bluff a good idea here? Do you fold to the raise?
My luck turns worse and the next round I catch the BB at the doubled limit ($2000) and go all-in to lose in the SB with K,Q.
Your turn bluff sounds OK, the way you described the situation.
Your check-in-the-dark is a terrible play, IMO. I simply hate this play. I think it is a big, flashing sign that reads "I'm a sucker who thinks he's a player!" I'm sure that's not always true, but it sure seems that way in my experience.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree with Greg.
The check in the dark thing is simply bad poker. I really don't see any situation where this play can be right.
Sure, you can always check-raise but there are times when the best play is to bet, hoping to get raised, so you can reraise. Or you might want to bet but fold to a raise and by checking and calling you would never know where you stand.
Also, your opponent could take a free card which you don't want to give.
I would never recommend checking in the dark.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Okay,
What type of flop here do I want to bet into the other player (in this particular situation)?
I made the decision that I am either folding or checkraising. I am almost positive this guy will bet if I check. However, I think I have a slightly better chance of getting a freecard here if I check in the dark (the reality was that I thought it didn't really matter either way).
I have k,5 and have probably enough money to get to the final table.
Therefore, I am folding with everything but a pair of kings. If I have a pair of kings, I am more than happy to checkraise and take my chances.
I lose money money by lead betting with kings as the other player will fold or call/raise with a hand that beats me.
dk wrote: "What type of flop here do I want to bet into the other player (in this particular situation)?"
How about a flop with a 5 in it? How about a bluff? A 1 bet bluff is half as much as a check-raise bluff, and against some opponents works better. By the time they've invested 2 bets, they feel more committed to the pot. A lot of players will fold to your bet, even if they think you're bluffing, because they've only lost that first bet (call) on the hand.
There are plenty of times you should bet into a single limper. Plus, even if you're sure you'll either check-and-fold or check-and-raise every possible flop, that still doesn't mean you should check in the dark.
There may be some rare circumstances, against very particular opponents, when checking in the dark is the best play. However, if this is ever the case, then the play is best left to the true masters of manipulating the opponent. Such players are few and far between. I know I'm not one.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fossilman Wrote: "There may be some rare circumstances, against very particular opponents, when checking in the dark is the best play. However, if this is ever the case, then the play is best left to the true masters of manipulating the opponent. Such players are few and far between. I know I'm not one."
Don't sell yourself short, Greg. You're pretty easy to manipulate...
Hehe
Say your opponent has QJs and the flop comes J 5 5. He will surely (probably) raise you when you bet. You can then come over the top.
Say he has KJ with a flop of K5x. Same thing.
Should the flop come with 2 spades, then you can try a semi-bluff bet. If he raises then see how much it would cost you and if it's worth it. Or maybe you could make him lay it down with a bigger reraise. etc..
I don't think it is ever good to take away one of your options without any good reason.
The point is, poker is a very complicated game and there is rarely a play that is automatic. Why not check only once you've decided that THAT is the best course.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Thanks for the comments and I don't really disagree with you.
However, it would seem that the option to three bet the pot is incosequential for the two hands you sited, J,5,5 and K,5,x. All the money is going into the pot (forgot to mention his stack was about the same as mine) .
The advantage of a checkraise is that you will pick up at least one small when you hit these hands and he does not (a more likely scenario). For example, if you check he will bet A,Q or a small pair but might fold if you lead out. Also, he might feel committed with a checkraise and continue to call.
I still don't see a hand I want to lead bet with here. This is not a general statement (as I agree the game is extremely complicated) but based on my read of the player, the point in the tourney, and both our stacks.
I agree there is no value in checking in the dark. However, it didn't really limit my options as I knew what decision I was going to make regardless of the flop.
I have actually never checked in the dark before this. I heard a player do this at the final table on the WSOP broadcast (which gave me the idea).
No-Limit Hold'em daily tournament,
Final Table, 5 players remaining, I was the chip leader, a few people want to talk deal, guy with the fewest chips(not enough to last the button going around once) demands $700, we thought $450-$500 would have been generous. He starts telling me i can't play worth Sh#t, that didn't help his case much, so I said let's play. As the dealer starts to shuffle, he points to me and says, "You had your chance buddy!", he says it again. The very mext hand he goes all-in with A-9 offsuit, I look down and see J-J and raise. He gets no help, he gets $240.
Now he goes ballistic, he jumps up and gets pretty close to me, points to me and starts cursing, telling me I'm nothin', on and on. I knew he wanted me to say anything that would justify him kicking my ass. I weigh 140, he weighs about 210. I think he could easily have kicked my ass so I say nothing. What do you do in this kind of situation? I never experienced anything like this before in a casino. I couldn't believe the floorman said nothing at all to this guy.
i think you need to make it everybody's problem. call time (call the floor if hes not there) and tell the floor youre not ready to play until the rail is cleared. then just hold your cards and wait. you dont have to talk to or look at anyone except the floor.
the main thing is not to act too soon. wait until the crazy guy is pretty far away.
brad
p.s. if you really want to get your point across (to the floorman) your tip will be in line (commensurate?) with the help you got. the main thing here would be to explain the thinking behind the size of the tip when you give it.
You should've just yelled, "seat open ..."
n/t
I think your last sentence is the key.
The floor should have been called by the dealer and they should have taken it from there. You had nothing to do here.
Take a deep breath and play.
Hope you took it.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
,.,.,.,.,
I would have said "you gonna bite there doggie, or just keep barkin'?"
If he laid a hand on me I would have cracked him on the bridge of the nose.
I'm glad you knocked his loudmouth butt out of the tourney as you did. Good for you. If the floorman saw this and did nothing I would have to speak to him and possibly go over his head. That is totally unacceptable.
If the floorman was right there watching this and did nothing, then he definitely needs to learn to do his job. Tell him you consider his lack of action unacceptable, and that you want to see his boss to complain.
While in the heat of the moment, with the maniac in your face, turn to the dealer and ask him to call the floor. If the floor is there already, ask them both to call security. If the guy hits you, you ask for the police to be called when it's over, because you want him arrested. If they try to talk you out of calling the police, tell them fine, they can pay to you now the million dollars you'll be asking for in your lawsuit, and the cops don't need to be called. Once the cops are there, file a full complaint. Sue the maniac, and name the floorman and casino as co-defendants for failing in their duty to protect you (i.e., by not immediately calling for security). I'm sure you'll get a nice settlement, even if it isn't worth the pain, etc. of the incident.
I'm just spelling this all out so that other readers and you, should they face this situation in the future, will have already considered what to do.
Even if you're sure you can kick the assailants ass, don't try. If you swing first, you might be the one going to jail, no matter how threatening his behavior had been.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
nt
You need to stand up for yourself.
When you let these guys get the best of you, they know it, and take full advantage. Every time you see this guy in the card room from now on, you will know he got the best of you. How does that make you feel?
You should have stood up, ripped off your shirt, stood about 8 feet away, and said take your best shot. I almost bet my life that this idiot backs down.
The guys who talk tough are never tough at all.
tom wrote: "You should have ... said take your best shot. ... The guys who talk tough are never tough at all."
Isn't this advice kind of contradictory?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'm pretty sure tom is not serious. But in case he is, I think calling for the floor and calling for security (and the police, if necessary) IS standing up for yourself. You're handling it in a professional, calm, respectful and legal way. This guy will know if he tries it again, you will take action. A physical fight is something he may want, don't give it to him.....being dealt with by the casino security and/or police is certainly not what he wants.
JohnnyD
tom,
I'm in too dire need of a tan to be ripping off my shirt in public :o Besides...the sign at the door says "Shirt and Shoes Required." But I do appreciate your support.
Thanks
The ripping of your shirt might have been a little (maybe a lot) excessive. I just find it hard to believe that you would not stand up for yourself.
It just amazes me how many players just sit there and let these a holes talk to them like dirt.
I admit theres a time and a place for everything. Wasn't someone shot at one of those Florida dog track poker rooms over 5.00? You never know these days, and it is certaintly not worth getting killed for.
You have my opinion. When it happens again, let me know what you did. And, when it happens a third time (because you probably listened to these other posters), well.......
a lot of us get tired of hearing bad beat stories--- but your near "beat" was more intresting. Seems like you did all anyone could, just lay low. Jim
My vote goes for Earl's response. lol
that is all,
danny boy :o)
Look you here, wimp. I am 4 feet 10 inches tall and weigh approximately 98 pounds. But does anyone ever try to bully me? No. Why? Because I have what's called Strength of Character. Unlike the morbidly pathetic wimp that you are, I always stand up for my rights. Unlike the miserable vomitous shrimp that you are, I am more than motivated to kick in the nuts anybody who threatens to kick me in the ass. Take assertiveness training or somethin'....and some Kung Fu. Hope this helps.
-PV, inventor of EV
I'm supposed to be studying my law books instead of surfing the internet. But, lo and behold, I have the opportunity to do both at the same time. Watch in amazement as I spew off what I've learned over my whole week's worth of classes.
What this man did to you was an intentional tort called assault. Assault is an unlawful attempt to commit battery. Now, while words in and of themselves do not constitute an assault, his leaning in and pointing at you cross the line. If you felt yourself to be imminently endangered by his actions (regardless of whether he was within reach of you at the time he did those actions), you have a claim against him.
I would also say that the floor manager was negligent in his duty to break up the action of the maniac. But, um...well, we haven't gotten to negligence yet. I'll let you know in another week.
Yay! I studied today. Sigh...I need to go study for real, though.
When you are a man, fightin' ain't worth it. Which do you prefer, time locked up or time bandaged up? The floorman did nothing? What casino is this, so that I make sure NOT to go there. What a trashy place. You know, if the guy keeps giving you problems and you've got the dough, you can go and see the "juiceman." See, the juiceman has the resources to deal with this sort of thing. This guy who was talking smack must be wet behind the ears. Perhaps he could use a "rude awakening."
You should have called the floor. And you should let the management know they are responsible for security and perhaps even have some liability exposure.
One good line to help defuse a hot head like this when he gets in your face: Tell him if he wants to hit you to go ahead. Then he can pay your mortgage off for you.
PP 1 table tourney. 3 players left. We all have about the same amount of T chips. I open raise with A-9o on the button; SB 3-bets and BB caps; I fold. Results later. Comments, please...
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
Well it's pretty player dependant but I really don't see how you can call here.
The SB could be reraising because he knows you could be on a steal. So he could have JT-A8s-66 whatever, many hands you could be ahead against but many you could be behind AT - 99 - etc.
BUT, a reraise will usually be a legitimate hand.
I think this is a clear fold. Especially if the blinds are big enough that there is a good chance the looser of this hand will go out in third.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
It is very player dependent and a fold is probably in order, but a lot of players loosen right up once the field is reduced to 3. I do it myself, you already have 20 (or however many) locked up, you get 10 more for second and 30 more for first so why not go for it.
With four players left this would be a much clearer fold.
Andy.
I thought this was an easy fold then the flop comes 259 rainbow; turn A; river 9. both playeres showed their hands. I was up against QQ and KK. It did knock out one player and I went one to win the tourney. But if I would have called I would have won it right there. Still think I made the right decision. Any further comments welcome.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
It doesn't make any difference what would have happened. If you had 92off and folded and the board came with two nines, would you be questioning your decision to fold pre-flop? It was a good fold and this is re-enforced by both of them showing down hands that you were a huge underdog against.
Peace
Goodie
definitely a good fold. I dump A 9 early in tourneys and raise with it late. When both players come back over the top--you are not in the lead anymore. Let them inflict damage on each other and hopefully you lock up a second or better finish.
do u want to gamle whats at stake. with 3rd locked .no investment . i would go for it . thats how tounys are won .
Can't agree with you here, Freddy. What's the point of grinding it to third just to blow it by being a cowboy? If it's three bets to you in the given situation and you are holding A-9, suited or not, where are you at? Do you think that you are going to get two opponents who re-raised you to fold after the flop? What kind of flop are you looking for? At the minimum, you need an ace. That rates you as a 6:1 dog right there, and you still don't know if an ace would help. You need that flop to hit you twice. Also, I see a lot of folks calling out "player dependant" here. I say that that aspect is de-valued when your talking about a raise and a re-raise back to you, especially out of the big blind. That big blind is looking at two bets cold. He's got to know that it's a raise or fold situation. He raises, so he's got to have the goods. Even chumps would fold the BB without the goods here. They know that a re-raise isn't going to win it there, that the flop will be seen by the SB (who was the initial re-raiser)no matter what. So now we consider how the hand will be played. With A-9,where is your flexibity? No suited value. No straight value. NO EXTRA OUTS. None of what you need to outplay these opponents. You do have position, but all that is likely to do is get you into trouble here. Why? Because this is the pot (now that it is three handed and huge) that is going to go a long way in determining the winner of the event. You've gotta know that it's going to be strongly contested. Heck, it already is being stongly contested! So to say this hand is player dependant is a bit vague. You'd need a tell or something specific that would make you believe that you had an edge on this pot. So A-9 is prabably a bad call for a lot of technical reasons, but what about from the veiw of pure tournament strategy? Here is where Gene was right on. It's the concept that most real good tournament players excercise frequently and one that has been illustrated by Malmuth, in Gambling Theory, by Sklansky, in Sklansky on Poker, and by Suzuki, in Tournament Stategy. It is the concept of staying out of a hand to make money in a tournament. I believe Gene said that was the last consideration which lead to the fold. Great reason to fold, especially here. You've got two people flexing their muscles; one will probably be hurt and you will make money. If you are really lucky (which Gene was), you will be folding to two really strong hands and one peron will be hurt badly. Think of where this puts you. 1. You're now in second place. 2. Your chips have just increased in value. 3. You have better negotiating power. Gene folded and went on to win the event. This sounds like it was a major hand in the tournament. Gene won from solid play at a critical time and now has a win that is legitimate. Skill more than luck prevailed here. None of this runner- runner stuff. In the long run, in both tournament and ring games, solid winning strategies prevail.
With one raise, a call would have been correct. But not with two.
Gene,
I think you made the right play after the big blind capped. The only exception is if he was super aggressive, then I might have called.
I think maybe I'm playing at a different table than the rest of you. The last two times I"ve played, I got busted out as follows:
Somewhat shortstacked, I raise a couple limpers with AKs ($20 to go) by $100. I've got $120 left. The first limper calls. I lose to J7o.
Today, again somewhat shortstacked, I raise 3 limpers all-in with AK. The UTG limpers calls me with K7o and flops a 7.
This is typical. It's definitely like I said, a 3-6 game turned into no limit. Everybody still plays the same way. Limp, check, call, only the betting is no limit so they limp, check, call all-in. It's amazing. If only my frickin' cards could hold up. It's IMPOSSIBLE to lose in the long run. I wish we were playing for cash.
natedogg
when trnmnt start yesterday or day before, I saw you accross the table from me--guess we just a wrong place , they got me all in with AKsuited, a Q7offsuit won the pot!! Jim
natedogg,
Bad play is everywhere. You don't document the exact details, so it is difficult to recommend any strategic advice. I play these tourneys almost every Friday and Saturday and frequently don't get beat until I'm at the last few tables, and sometimes I even make it to the top five, so it can be done.
Actually, the play of the tourney improves after the first break. But, during the early stages I frequently limp in with this hand and try to see the flop cheap. I usually don't raise unless the table starts to tighten down.
Playing in the Pokerspot freeroll yesterday, 23 players left. I have little to none no-limit experience. T64,000 chips in play, I'm in 3rd with T4,500. Two players have about T10,000, and they're both at my table. I really don't care about getting a Top-5 finish and winning $20 or whatever, I'm more or less just trying to win the tourney.
Blinds are 100-200. Most stacks at my table are about T2,000. I'm in the cutoff and get ten-ten. A small stack opens for T400, three others call, including the chip leader in the cutoff. I call (mistake? - I figure with this many people already in, my best value would be flopping a set. A few stacks were already about half in, and I was sure I'd be called if I raised. I'd most likely be up against some overcards, and it'd be a coinflip as to who'd win. Would anyone fold this hand preflop? I'm guessing a lot of you would.) The blinds fold. T1,900 in the pot. (A really passive no-limit game... I guess that's what you get when it's a freeroll.)
Flop comes 6c 5d 2c. All check to me. What's my play?
. . . . . . . .
RESULTS (I have a feeling I really butchered this one) - I bet about half my stack (enough to cover everyone but the cutoff). I was pretty sure I was leading at this point, and like I said before, I had no interest in "only" a Top-5 finish (though that's no reason to play bad). I figured if I could win these chips, I'd be over T6,000, and would about guarantee a final table spot. The three little stacks fold (!!) and the cutoff raises me all-in. I have no intentions of folding for T2,000 when there's T6-7,000 in the pot, and I call. He turns over Ace-Four offsuit and a three comes on the turn. Out in 23rd.
What did I do wrong?
UMTerp,
If you are not interested in survival and want a good chance to win the tourney, you should have put in your whole stack preflop. Quite often you will just pick up the money that is already in the pot and the larger stacks will leave you alone unless they got a hand or are idiots. If you have a good solid image no one will call. You might even get lucky and have a smaller pair call you.
Your second alternative play if for survival. In this case you call. If no one bets, you make a small bet at the flop, if you get reraised throw it away. If you get called you may already be beat, so be prepared to give it up. When players don't have to pay much to play a pot they will play almost anything. Someone, may already have floped the nuts in a multiway pot.
Some of your facts seem wrong. You state that you are the cutoff and the big stack is also cutoff. You also imply there are 5 callers preflop which mean there should be T2300 in the pot preflop.
I don't think you really played it all that bad.
Pre-flop you have 2 options. You can call like you did or you can raise enough to make it headsup or take the pot. I wouldn't think of folding TT in your position.
On the flop I think your bet of 1/2 your stack is correct. Your call is also correct.
Your opponent got lucky. You had him on the flop.
Ken Poklitar
All in all the book gave me lots of ammunition .The one thing that I noticed is that there wasnt much about rebuy stack strategy ( constant and progressive). There was a chapter rehashing from shane smiths book for rebuy tournies but nothing on said stacks So in a sense i`m glad that the suzuki book I picked up last year will fill that void. But i still wish to know if the suzuki book suffiently covers the rebuy strategy for these stacks.
jg
I'm heading the the Trop in AC tomorrow to play in this tourney, 40$ buy-in.
In the early stages of hold-em tourneys I rarely play anything but big pairs, and big slick. Does anyone want to through out some good starting hands for hi/lo stud in the early goings? I haven't had much success. TIA
that is all,
danny boy :o)
Well danny boy,
I think A23 suited is a great starting hand. But what would you do with 88A? Early in the tourney, would you play this hand? You'll just have to see if anyone responds to your piddly post.
and save the $40 entry fee for next time, after you've read it.
Against players who are good at poker in general but haven't played this particular version of poker, stud hi/lo is one of the best possible games. Against really weak new players, it is also good, but not as good as Omaha.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Final table, 6 players left. Total chip count: 82k. Nobody has less then 9k, nobody more than 20k. Blinds: 750/1500.
Both player A (16k) and B (15k) play tight agressive, A has been even more agressive than B on the final table but whenever he had to show a hand, it was a legitimate hand.
A is in the SB, B in the BB. Everybody folds. A calls the BB (the first time he only called a bet since the last 2 tables), B bets 5k more, A thinks a long time and calls finally.
Flop comes: A-T-3 rainbow. A quickly moves in all his chips, B calls immediatly. A shows J8o, B shows AA and wins.
What do you think about A´s move.
Etowah
Player A should of never called the 5K preflop raise, never. He or she can find a better spot. J8 is crap to this raise.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
HORRIBLE!!!
A few things you don't do at the final table and one is just call in this position the second is call a raise with a nothing hand like J8.
He just should have dumped the J8 which is not much better than random hand and lost $750 the buton is next and he could move on from there.
Bad play he got what he deserved.
I think the BB made a mistake too he should have just doubled the blind but that is another post.
not much
A should have folded pre-flop.
A is hoping that B has KK or QQ, and by going all-in is saying I have an Ace.
I think A could have found a better hand to try to get B's chips.
Ken Poklitar
So, who is A? I suspect he's going to be a big name poker star, or somebody from the forum, or you?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
My initial reaction partway through your post was that A was slowplaying a big hand when he only called the blind. When you say he hadn't flat-called for hours, I get nervous, as B, when A only calls in an obvious steal situation.
Maybe he's reading B's 5K bet for a steal, and then is trying to represent that he had the A when one flopped.
If B is a good player (and A knows that) then A was trying to cash in on the "slowplaying a big hand" message. Problem is "why wouldn't A have come back over the top BTF if he really did have a big hand?" And B knows that, too.
Problem is that B was beyond having to think with trip A's.
. . . which is that he played the really badly.
three spades hit the board-bet,raise,turn,bet,raise,reraise,etc,river brings another spade--good bye to the two small spades. before this trnmnt I had just read post from Nate about getting beat, so I thought he might be streaking (in reverse)! He was. . . what fun! Jim
My name on paradise is not natedogg. There are several PP users who have variations of the name natedogg.
I wish it was me tho!
natedogg
guess that's one price you pay for fame and fortune--copycats! also means I was chasing for wrong reason. perhaphs we'll do it somewhere down the line. lol Jim
small no-limit holdem tourney, money not important except to note that i was playing to try and win the tourney not just get into the money. tourney pays 4 spots five players left one hand after losing number six. here is my question and any comments would be appreciated. 3 blinds at 1000-2000 level, first hand at this new level (tournament had just turned into a crapshoot due to increasing blinds and slow start to the play) i am the button and small blind with two big blinds in the first two postions. i have 1000 in the blind with 4100 in chips left and the two blinds are co-chip leaders with around 14000 each and other two player have similar chip positions to me (one slightly more, one slightly less) both players fold action to me. what do you do? to win the tournament this hand and all of its dead money seems very important to me. both blinds are fairly loose players who had been sliding in and winning with an unbelievable number of small pairs, unfortunately for me i had been robbing everyones blinds (especially theirs from the cutoff, before the player to my immediate left went bust) up to this point due to holding zero starting hands and my opponents having a healthy fear of me. what to do? three blind hands and a critical juncture in trying to win this tournament--any comments? an outcome will be posted following--J.
Well, what he hell did u have? How can anyone comment on your play if you don't even mention the 2-7 you have in the hole? lol IM JUST KIDDING!!!!
I've never played a 3 blind tourney before. This must be a west coast thing. PEACE!!!
that is all,
danny boy :o)
clarification of
Regarding the three blinds....here in Arizona, they play an advancing button (as opposed to dead button). If the person who would have been the button goes bust, then the button advances to the person with the small blind and this causes two big blinds. In a hand or two, it works itself back to normal. With this method, every player must post both a big and small blind and the button can never be on the same person twice.
I've seen the following happen a few times. The players who would have been the button and small blind bust on the same hand. Now the button and the next two player have to post a big blind (yes, three big blinds). The next hand, the player behind the button has a small blind, the button and the next player also have small blinds and the next player has the big blind. It's really not the complicated, but you should see the faces on some visitors who have never seen this.
JohnnyD
You don't tell us what you have, and it does matter. This is not a spot where you play no matter what.
Given the size of your stack, your raise seems unlikely to steal the blinds. Of course, if you know these players are tight enough that a steal has a reasonable chance of succeeding, then raising with anything is a viable option. However, once the first guy folds, the next guy only has to call 3K to win 9K. In his spot, I would call without even looking at my cards. Really.
If your hand is above average, then I would raise, as long as I was confident that I would get only 1 caller. Any hand I played here I would raise all-in. Even with AA you don't want to limp and let both of them see the flop for free, and your stack isn't big enough to consider a smaller raise.
Here are the hands that are above average against 1 random opponent: Any pair, any A, any K Q2s Q5o J6s J8o T7s T9o 98s
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
first off thank you Greg, you gave me the response that i was hoping/looking for/thinking i would receive. i said to myself almost exactly what you posted before i looked down at 10-9 of spades and shoved all in expecting to probably get called from one spot. i did get called after a long thought process from the first big blind and he had me smothered with Q-9 and won the pot with Q hi. i don't think that there was any way for me to win this pot, including smooth calling the blinds and betting on any of the remaining rounds, including the end, because he probably would have moved on me first. Greg as always thank you for posting such thoughtful and intelligent posts. the last time that i played with Ray Zee he gave you a huge compliment regarding your posts and their content, and anyone who doesn't read everything the "Fossilman" has to say has less knowledge for it.--J.
Too bad your better than average hand was so slightly better than average, and so dominated by his also slightly better than average hand.
Depending upon chip counts and the size of the prizes, there certainly could be an argument that your raise is a mistake in terms of EV. If there is a reasonable chance somebody gets themselves broke before the blinds come back to you, then folding is probably the best play (though it does greatly reduce your chances of winning, and you did say that was really your only goal here, which is why I didn't mention this in my first reply).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Two hands from the same tournament:
380. In a limit holdem tourney after rebuys have ended, I have A-J off in third position at a full table. I raise. The big blind calls. Two players.
The flop is 10-8-6, I forget whether rainbow or two suited. He checks, I bet, he check-raises, I call all-in for a full small bet.
381. In a limit holdem tourney after rebuys have ended, I have K-Q off under the gun at a 9-player table. I have four small bets left. The big blind is capable of surrender. I raise. Normally I do not raise with this hand but because of my desperate chip position I decide to do it. The small blind calls (small blind is $300, it costs him $700 more to call). He is 70ish Caucasian that I haven't played with before. The big blind folds. Two players.
The flop is 8-7-6 rainbow. He bets, I fold.
That leaves me with two small bets and I go out on the next hand when I take the big blind and call a raise heads-up with 9-3 off.
Roger
In your chip position I agree that you have to play these hands.
The call in the first hand is correct, you probably have 2 overcards and are getting pot odds to call.
Although you are not quite getting the odds with the second hand, I would have reraised all in. You are really up against it with only 2 SBs left when you fold.
380 - I play it the same way, probably.
381 - I call the flop bet, and then call the turn if he bets, or bet the turn if he checks. However, I do know some guys against whom I would fold the flop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I had my first experience og a "deep money" tournament yesterday when my local casino hosted a £500 (about $700)NL freeze out. Players were given 10000 in tournament chips with the blinds starting at 25/25 for the first 30 mins.
At the 25/25 stage I was dealt AA second UTG and made 100 to go, was this too cheap?
I was called in three places, flop is 5JJ rainbow, I check and it is checked round. Comments?
Turn is Kc making 2 clubs on board, I check again, next to act bets 500 everyone folds to me. I think he has hit a K, but obviously cannot completely discount a J, so I raise another 500, he calls. Should I have raised more - should I have raised at all?
River is a blank, I bet 2000 and he folds. I think that this bet was too large- what do you think I should have bet?
the raise preflop was OK, but after JJ hit the board you needed to try to learn if other player had you beat, thus should not check--bet about half the pot, if you get called or raised then you must figure you are beat and be ready to bail out...that after flop bet may have won the pot right there --which is not bad. your call of the 500 was OK,since he made bet much bigger than the pot, he probably does not have a J. after river ,seems your bet was too large, you can only get called by someone who has you beat, so why risk so much when a somewhat smaller bet can do same job??? there is about 1,300 in the pot thus might bet 1,000. lol Jim
Dave,
In this situation I would make a half the pot bet on the flop, just to see if anyone would call me. When you just check in this situation you'll end up guessing at what they have, and that's what you did. At least when you bet, it should stop someone from stealing the pot away from you.
Since, your opponent bet on turn, I would just call, because now he can not be sure if you have a jack. By raising at this point you are asking him if he has the jack. So, you put yourself at risk here. If you smooth call on the turn, check to him on the river. Most players will give up their bluff on the river in this situation.
OK, I'm going to disagree and see if we can start up a discussion.
Firstly, pot-size raise pre-flop is fine (I assume this is a No-Limit comp). Now, one thing that I am slowly learning to my cost in these bigger tournaments is that one pair on the flop is probably in trouble if any serious money goes in at this early stage with such small antes. I check the flop because I don't fear a free card ; I am liable to lose less if someone has a Jack ; and I might induce a bluff at some point. As TJ says, why do you need to put money into a pot to find out where your opponent is ? Check and interpret any bets according to your knowledge of your opponent.
Now if what I call a "level 1" player comes out and bets the pot, you can be pretty sure you're ahead. This is a player who acts at Poe's first level of sophistication (read "The Purloined Letter" if you don't know what I mean). He thinks that checking a Jack but betting one pair (5 may be unlikely but he could have a pocket pair or even just overcards) is the trickiest thing to do. You can now plan ahead to extract the most money out of him.
If however, a third player calls, alarm bells should go off. If all check and then you get a caller or a raiser on the turn, again off go the bells.
On the river you just have to play some poker.
To summarise, against many typical opponents I am inclined to check-call this hand from the flop onwards quite a lot. Comments welcome.
Dave, where is this game, I don't remember seeing any games of this type offered lately ?
Andy.
.
;
Andy,
I disagree a little bit. If you check you are giving someone with position on you to take control. By underbeting the pot you're saying maybe I have a jack or maybe I don't. I like a bet smaller than the size of the pot, because it says I want action. So, most players will not bluff at you in this spot.
Remember we had all a huge pile of chips. If I bet small and either get called or a small raise, I am in a bit of difficulty. I have to back off if I get any heat.
As explained below one of the reasons for my check was that at least one of the players would have expected me to check if I had AJ.
IMO if I bet the flop I will only get called by someone who has me beaten or someone who doesn't think I have a Jack and intends to try and bluff me off the pot. I can't defend against the latter.
Dave,
I've read all the other responses, but I still don't like the check to represent AJ. With that many people seeing the flop probably someone else has got a pair. I want them to pay the price for calling with a pair and not getting a free shot to beat me.
What would you do if a ten fell on the turn? Or if a smaller card fell and made someone a set. They would know you could have a jack or a big pair, but they'll have you beat. Then they will try to extract whatever they can from you. A good player would not bet too much on the turn, but would probably bet an amount that they think you would call.
You reduce the odds of someone beating you by not giving a free card. Especially, in a multiway pot. So, I disagree with your play here. Sometimes, its correct to do the obvious, even if you would have had AJ.
Think about this too. Since, you had a pair of aces there is only two aces and two jacks out there. This makes it less likely that they have it.
Maybe, one of the experts at this site can settle this issue for us.
Mark,
I think the only thing we are sure about is that this kind of question cannot be definitively settled by _anybody_ . It's far too dependent on your opponents' playing styles, their perception of you, and so on.
I do think you are overly concerned about giving a free card with no draw on the flop and a maximum of two outs for any opponent who has a 5 or a pocket pair.
Andy.
Andy,
I think that you are wrong in this situation. You are much better off trying to pick up the pot in this situation by being the aggressor. If you had AJ, or even a pair of dueces for that matter you should play it the way that I am suggesting in this post. You will win more money and loose less in the long run.
Let's look at this example again. You bet 100 and get called in three places. The pot is at 400. I say bet half the pot on the flop and give players that called with pocket pairs a chance to fold. It's possible that all three players could have pocket pairs, so you're not just dealing with a two outer anymore.
Let's say you get a caller on the flop. Now, it becomes important who called and what position they called from, and what you think of their play. If you are called by someone other than the last player to act, you are probably facing a legitimate hand. Most likely, it is a pocket pair that does not believe you have the jack or even a pair of aces. On the turn, if you had one caller there would be 800 in the pot, so I would bet half the pot again. This way you are not giving correct odds for any draw. On the river, I might bet half the pot again if I think my opponent would call, otherwise I might check it if I think he will bet and call his bet.
All I have to say Andy, is next time you cross the pond and we happen to be at the same table, please give me a free card. If that free card hits my hand, I'll extract as much money from you that I think I can get from you.
What do you do if some one raises your flop or turn bet?
Dave,
It depends on position, player, and how much they raise. Andy did say he wanted an argument, didn't he?
I think this hand could be played a number of different ways depending on the opponents.
I don't want you to give the impression that the hand could only be played one way. But, I am interested in discussing any alternatives.
Let's look at the river play. What would you do if you were reraised 2000?
I'm just interested in discussing the alternatives.
Good Luck
Mark
I've admitted the river bet was wrong and I fold if raised.
I felt that I had played the hand to that point in a manner consistent with having a Jack or not having a Jack - (for me). I think that is important in this kind of Poker - feel free to disagree - this was my first experience of having so many chips that you could bluff reraise get called and not severely dent your stack.
Dave,
I actually believe the river bet was correct, only the amount that you bet is questionable, since you had played it the way you did.
Ok, let me be annoying, you're ALL right, IMO.
Let me explain.
I think it really depends on you. That's it, thanks!
Seriously, if you are good enough and confident enough in yourself that you can deduce, with a high level of success, what your opponent has depending on what his action is then checking, as Andy dictated, is surely the best play, since you save money when you feel you are beaten.
However, if you are not so sure or say you have just been moved to a table, then betting out is fine, IMO, since the opponent's reaction should give you clues and signals on their holdings like if there is a raise and a cold caller, forget it. But this has cost you some chips.
So we should all hope to be able to make the best decisions without spending a dime. TJ is right here. But this is not always easy. I know it's not for me.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
yes, perhaps both are right, the primary weakness I see in Andy"s response is "according to knowledge of opponent". rather often we face one we do not know at all. secondary fault is that: do I really want to induce a bluff???if his nolimit bet would put me all in, and cause me to face being knocked out of the trnmnt by a J, it would be more than uncomfortable. lol Jim
There's only 1000 or so in the pot. You have 10K each. If someone's going to put me all-in then, irrespective of what happens on this hand, I want him on my table.
Andy.
Up to the river bet it is a toss up how to play the hand ya'll could be right , but that river bet is not a percentage move in a tournament. IMHO THE PAPA
I agree the big river bet was wrong - I was just trying to get opinions on how much he would call if he had a K.
I think the Prince has got it 100% correct - knowledge of the players and their read on me is a big factor in this hand. Two of the three players I knew - and importantly certainly one of them would have concluded that I would check a jack almost all the time. This was a factor in my decision not to bet.
Now we're talking ! I wasn't thinking of it from that angle (what your opponent(s) put you on).
The problem there is that if your opponent does put you on a Jack then he's not going to make a mistake. He might slow down a little bit with Jack-small, but how likely is he to have that in a raised pot ? If he thinks you have a Jack, he's going to fold any hand you can beat. You would prefer him _not_ to put you on a Jack even though you don't have one.
Good this isn't it ? Hell, if I just said "it depends" to every post I'd never be wrong. Love this game :-)
Andy.
Gosh, these nl situations can be tough. The only real mistake here is the big bet on the end. Seems to me a smaller bet offers more protection because the big bet screams "you should have a jack or you should fold." A smaller bet might say "please call me" to your opponent. He may then be more readily obliged to pay and see (if he does have a king) while at the same time be afraid to try to steal because you are, in his mind, trying to get a call. In my opinion, the turn raise should make an attentive opponent put you on a big pair. At that point you should expect to make little if any more money on the hand because you showed no fear of the king and thus probably have kings-up beat. The best you can hope for with your big bet is that the bettor put you on a steal on the end and calls. The problem is, your action says that you either have kings-full or aces-up and at the very least, kings up with an ace. Hard to make any more money here. I think that with two clubs out, you might have raised a little more than $500. After all, if he's going to go over the top, he's going to do it when you raise $500, so get some more money in there. Now if a club hits the end and he bets big, you can dump because his action has shown flush draw. I don't like checking and calling in this hand because it seems easy to try a steal against you here. I don't know, how good are you at calling big bets on the river? Poker is safest when one can be the aggressor.
Pre-flop, 100 is fine.
On the flop, I would bet the pot and see who might have a Jack.
You need to bet the turn. You are giving someone with 2 clubs a chance for a flush. I do agree with raising when someone finally bets.
Your river bet is fine. Since you check-raised the turn, he probably has you on a slowplayed Jack. If you bet 1000 he might call you but I doubt it.
Ken Poklitar
Well, today was the inaugural limit Hold-Em tournament at the fffffffabulous Akwesasne Mohawk Casino. Being a semi-regular there, and having never played in a live tournament before, I went to pick up some experience.
The structure was: 50 entrants (actually ended up being 52), $50 entry fee plus up to 3 $20 rebuys, limits started at 5-10 and (slooooooowly) worked their way up by 5s (10-20, 15-30, etc.) after each orbit of the table. Top 3 get paid (50-30-20).
Well, the limit structure, coupled with the fact that it was their first tournament, made it quite chaotic. We ended up having each table stop play after two rounds and wait for the rest to catch up. Then, since just about everyone complained it would take forever to eliminate enough players to have a final table (where limits would double each round (??), we ended up going from 40-80 to 50-100 to 100-200 to 200-400 very quickly. Here's hoping they set things up better for next time.
Anyway, I had made it to the final table by playing rather tight, and aggressive when I picked up a hand. It seemed that whenever I picked up AA or KK (4 times total), I got a couple of callers to my preflop raise (these were at the higher limits, when the 3-6 regulars were getting antsy about committing 50-100 chips before the flop) and made them stand up. I was one of the final 6 with about T2800, which looked like 3rd on the table. Here was the crucial hand:
Limits 500-1000, 6 players left. I open-limp in the cutoff with QcJd. (Mistake #1? Should I have raised?)
All fold to BB, who checks (BB has about T1500 here). Flop comes 7d 8c Tc, BB bets, I call. My reasoning here is that I think he may be betting a pair, and I have 2 overcards to the flop. (Mistake #2?)
Turn 6c. BB goes all-in for T525, I call, thinking now that he has a straight with a 9. I figure that I have 3 outs for a higher straight and 9 outs for a 3rd-nut flush.
Anyway, Qd comes on the river, giving me queens, which was absolutely no match for his 7c5c, which gave him a turned flush, and me about half as many outs as I thought.
This left me with T1275, which was gone four hands later when I went all-in vs. the same guy with KJ vs. 94, only to see a 9 AND a 4 show up on the board. I exited in 5th.
Comments on this hand?
--Chris
Chris,
On the first I hand I think you should have raised preflop or folded. Calling was the worst action to take. I would raise in this spot if I think the blinds would fold, and I would fold if I think they would call.
On the last hand there is nothing you can do about someone getting lucky. Even though you had a better hand preflop. If all you have is 1275 left, the big blind only has to put in 275 to see the flop. I don't think neither you or your opponent made a mistake here.
Better luck next time.
Mark
At this stage in a tournament you should never limp into a pot. Either raise or fold.
Bruce
At the stage of the tournament when _every_ pot is being raised, if you limp in early position then it just screams "Aces !!!!". You are unlikely to be raised and a small bet on the flop can then often take it down. Plus you could get lucky and flop something good. The time has to be exactly right but I don't think you can rule the play out entirely.
You can also limp on the button against the right opponents in the blind.
Andy.
Of course there are exceptions but they rarely come up. I think for a tournament novice raise or fold is pretty solid advice in this type of situation.
Bruce
.
Well, you made a couple of mistakes.
The first one is preflop (the most important one). You should have either raised or folded. The blinds are T750 (I'm guessing the SB was T250). This is more than a quarter of your stack. Just picking up the blinds would be nice. You need to raise. Or you fold if you think there's a too good chance a player will call.
Anyway on the flop, I think you should have let it go. You have a gut-shot and 2 overs but once the SB bets into you, he probably has you beat. Sure, you could probably play it in a normal ring game but in a tourney and with your chip status, I would drop it.
Also, if you were to play it, you should have raised to get a free card on the turn.
Hope this helps.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
With QJo 6 handed in the cutoff I would either raise to steal the blinds or fold. I don't like just calling.
On the flop in a live game I am sure a call is correct. But in this case, your opponent only has another 500, so he is almost surely going to go all-in. So you need to decide if you want to call the turn bet. Secondly are you happy if you hit your Jack? A 9 would give him a straight. If you hit your Queen, it is also possible but unlikely he has a straight. You are probably looking at either 9's or Q's as your outs. I probably fold to save the chips.
Ken Poklitar
It appeared that your opponent was going to commit the whole stack to this hand. Did you stop to think what that meant.? I think you picked a good fight with allright cards you just needed to swing the bat harder. and even then i don't think he would have mucked.
High blinds low-med stack,always pick the door you want to leave out of.
were you thinking you would eliminate this player?
What do you think wuold have happened, if both players would have turned up their hands after the flop came. Would they have checked until carlos made his draw, would both have been all in? Bet and fold, ...?
I know that it´s not an important question. It´s just that I thought about it for a longer time and still I´m not sure yet.
Etowah
Tempted as I am to give the squirrel answer again, your question doesn't really make sense anyway. You will have to re-phrase it as an entirely hypothetical situation. It's pointless to talk in terms of what real players would do in the WSOP final because in the WSOP final no-one is going to turn their cards face up in the first place.
Andy.
I think the issue is that as they were pretty well even money , if one bets the other must call. Unless of course one of the players is Gator in which case he always folds.
Dewey would know he's the favorite, even if a slim one. He would bet all-in. Carlos would maybe be getting the pot odds to call (I forget the exact numbers of chips Dewey had, and how much went in preflop), but he would fold. Why double the guy up like that, when Carlos had been holding the momentum?
Of course, I may be wrong. Carlos might have enough gamble in him to make the call.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If your question is: what would happen if they both turn their cards UP after the flop.The only action left to take place is the dealing of the last two cards.cards are shown after all betting is complete so someone needs to be all in and someone needs to call the all in bet.then cards Can be flipped up according to the rules of the WSOP. did that help?
Dewey would check on the flop then move in on the turn , Unless Carlos had the balls to move in on the flop after dewey checks.
I am planning on hosting a HoldEm tournament at my house and I'm looking to put together a format which will be appropriate for the number of players (probably between 10-20) and the timeframe (we'd like the tournament to run between 4-5 hours tops, and not have it boil down to 3-5 people in the first few hours).
I've been looking on the web for some information on formats, and I've picked up a book on tournaments, but there isn't much information that's helpful in this regard. I'd like to have a buy-in of about $40, with rebuys for the first hour. I don't know how many tourney chips to give for the buyin or what the limit progression should be.
Can anyone provide pointers to info on the web, or their opinions directly, that would help me out? I;ve heard of something called the TEARS format but I can't locate anything on it.
Thanks,
Bill
I run a home NL HE tourney every week.
I'll share my structure and comments.
We start the blinds at 5-5, then 5-10, then 10-20 then 25-50, 50-100, 100-200, 100-200(antes of 25), 100-200(antes of 50), then 150-300 (antes of 100) etc.. each half an hour levels.
I keep it at about T8-10000 in play. So, if you were to have 20 players, give them T500 to start. This should take you the 5 hours to play.
I'd like to add that this is very much dependant on how aggressive you think the play will be. The play is very aggressive at my house so I can give more chips to everybody. If the players were to be mostly calling stations, then surely you should reduce the number of chips in play. Also, my tourney is no-limit, which, again, is a big factor and permits me to give more chips.
If you want to be sure for this first, give less chips like 200-300 and see how it turns out.
As for the TEARS system, look at pokerpages.com. Do a search and you should find some info.
Hope this helps,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
This is great response time, thanks! I'm not much of a tournament expert, so excuse me if my questions are weak!
>>We start the blinds at 5-5, then 5-10, then 10-20 then 25-50, 50-100, 100-200, 100-200(antes of 25), 100-200(antes of 50), then 150-300 (antes of 100) etc.. each half an hour levels.
So do you have 2 blinds and then go to blinds plus everyone antes once you reach 100-200? I assume when you say the blinds are 5-10 it's a 10-20 bet limit?
What's your buyin for the tourney? Do you have rebuys? How do you do the payouts?
Do you start at no limit from the get go, or do you go to no limit after the first hour(s)?
Thanks.
We play no-limit all the way. So yes it's 2 blinds until the second 100-200 level then everyones antes (with the blinds). I would not know the best structure if you wanted to play limit.
I pay 3 spots. Something like 50-30-20.
We have rebuys the first hour. Anyone below T200 and you get half of the starting chips for half of the buy-in.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I found an article on TEARS on pokerpages, but it is a kind of general description of the system, not a definitive guide. It sounds like there is a program or spreadsheet that you can use to work it out, but I can't find any pointers to it. Any pointers on finding the definitive info on TEARS?
In the most recent Poker Digest (June 1-14 issue), on page 10, there's a little box that says if you want more information about TEARS, you can email Tex Morgan at tex13@earthling.net (my guess, however, is they mean @earthlink.net)
JohnnyD
Bill,
Our weekly home tourney follows this structure:
One buy-in and two equal rebuys available anytime during first four rounds. We start with 500 chips are rebuys are for 500 chips.
Rounds are 20 minutes until 3 players are left, then 10 minutes.
We start with blinds of 5-10 and we play limit for the first 80 minutes. Blinds go to 10-20, 20-40 and 40-80.
After the first 4 rounds we do any final rebuys and chip up to all 50 and 100 chips. Then we start playing no limit with 50-100 blinds, doubling every 20 minutes until 3 are left, then every 10 minutes.
The most we ever had was 16 and it lasted about 3 1/2 hours. Lately we have had a low turnout (7-9) and it lasts about 2.5-3 hours.
KJS
Thanks for the info. This sounds pretty good for what I'm looking for. What was the $ for the buyin and the rebuys, and how do you pay off (winner take all, final three??). Did you have to be below 500 chips to rebuy?
Bill
Bill,
Choose whatever buy-in people are comfortable with and make the rebuys equal.
In our game you can rebuy after any hand during the rebuy period. How many chips you have does not matter.
We pay 3 places--60%, 30%, 10%.
Good luck and have fun.
KJS
You are very shortstacked. The blinds are going to take over 1/3 of your chips. You are UTG with KTs.
I went all-in.
Is this too soon to make a desperation all-in? 400 chips and 150 in blinds about to hit you. Everyone has almost 2k.
natedogg
I assume the blinds are 50-100 at this point.
Raising UTG with KTs with your chip position is correct. You still have enough chips where everyone else may fold. You are hoping weak aces or low pairs will fold. Players with real hands or reasonable aces will call but that is the problem with only having 400 chips at this point in the tourney.
Ken Poklitar
well Nate, yhat may not be best, but it's not worst. too bad you are in early position. I might have waited in hopes of better hand or better position, or both. Jim
If the rest of the table (except for the big blind) is going to fold all of their KQ, KJ, weak-medium A, and small pair hands (which they probably should), then the raise is correct. In this case you are pretty likely to get all to fold to the big blind. Once you get there, you are getting +EV no matter how tight or loose he plays. If he plays too tight, you win EV by stealing the blinds. If he plays too loose, you win EV by having the best hand the majority of the time. Even if he plays perfect, you win a combination of EV from the times he folds plus the times he calls with weaker hands. He has to be able to know almost exactly what you're holding in order for him to play in a way where you don't get +EV.
Now, if you run into AA or KK held by anybody, you're in a bad spot, but that won't happen very often. Against any other hand, even hands like AK or JJ, you're not that bad off, and you're getting some dead money in the pot as well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I would rather make a stsnd now. It gives them something to think about rather then making the move when you have only 300 in chips. the papa
Lots of avenues of thought here.Go back and reread D.S.'s Take in his Theory of Poker" on play'em now or wait for something better.
I try not to go all in before the flop because someones going to want to see it. The preflop all in isn't as strong a play as maybe representing a pair with a flopped A. All they had to do is look at your chip count and they might have figured you for a med-weak hand. The trouble started about four of five hands before. Thats when you need to start thinking about all-in. That way you will have a few hands to chose from. But all things considered I think you did what you had to do.
Maybe, just raise to 300, save 100 if the flop totally misses you and there is a bunch of callers/pressure.
Hi gang:)
I saw the below posts on home tournaments and it got me thinking that these would be perfect tune ups for satelites to the WSOP.
Is there anyone out there who runs a home tournament in the Phoenix metro area? If so, I'd possibly be interested in becoming a regular participant.
If anyone has any info, please reply in this thread or feel free to email me at nicerivercard@yahoo.com
Thanx in advance for your attention:) Mike
At R.G.P Daniel N. mentioned how he had raised it under-the-gun with 4-5 suited for $10,000 in the big one at the Horseshoe, then Hellmuth came over the top of him with 10-2 or 10-3 offsuit for $25,000.
My question: To open U.T.G. with a rag like 4-5....would you try that only when you feel eveybody is scared to death of you?
And when he does something like this I assume he just wants to pick up the antes & blinds, or do you think he sees this as an opportunity to get called, then catch a raggity flop that nobody would expect?
"Would you try that only when you feel eveybody is scared to death of you? " Not really, no. If you feel you have to add some extra hands for deception when raising in early position (and normally this is the case) then suited connectors are a much better bet than the "next level" of raising hands such as A-J, K-Q and so on. These are super-cheesy in early position, you could be the one who gets broke if you flop to these hands.
"I assume he just wants to pick up the antes & blinds, or do you think he sees this as an opportunity to get called, then catch a raggity flop that nobody would expect?". Yes, both. If he gets the right flop he could break someone. Besides that if he gets called by a weaker opponent he could have a good idea when to follow up on the flop as a bluff.
On top of that, if he has to (or chooses to) show his cards then that plants seeds of doubt in other players' minds. Maybe sometime (not necessarily in this tournament, any time in the future) Hellmuth (or whoever) will re-raise him when he's sitting with pocket rockets.
You've got to put _some_ shame in your game somewhere or it'll just be too easy for opponents to fold when you raise. It seems to me that sometimes the very best players are derided when they do this kind of thing, by people who just don't get it.
Andy.
But you should only put some shame in your game if you have the skills to pay the bills :-)
Andy.
Andy is right.
First, the table must be fairly tight.
Making this play UTG is good because the field should respect more your raise from that position.
You make this play to vary your play, and, like Andy said, it's much better than raising with AJ, KQ, KJs etc. With these hands, if you get called, then you are probably dominated or badly beaten. With lower suited connector, if you do get called then surely you are beaten but at least if the flop hits you, then it probably did not hit anyone else.
If you raised with KJs to vary your play and flop a J, then you could be beaten by AJ, QQ KK AA. And most players would go broke here. If you hit with 54s, chances are, it only hit you. Also, you'll get more out of it when you do hit.
I once read a story about TJ Cloutier who had raised preflop UTG and an opponent smooth called on the button with aces. Flop came A-4-5. Opponent had top set, TJ had 2-3 offsuit and doubled through.
Like Andy said, if you only raise with very solid hands, you are giving away too much info, don't we call that kind of player a rock? Aren't they beatable?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I'm looking for one that focuses specifically on strategies and tactics of holem tournament play. Thanks.
I've never read it, but I've heard McEvoy's book is good.
also a good one is POKER TOURNAMENT STRATEGIES BY SYLVESTER SUZUKI gives statergies for all kinds of tounys ..rebuy shootouts ect .i also have MCEVOYS GL .FRED.
I learned more from Ken Buntjer's book The Secret To Winning Big In Tournament Poker. I had to read it a couple of times to get a better understanding. Good Luck. Joe
For the best insights I've ever had into the mind of a tournament poker player "in action," I would recommend "The Andy Bloch Project," which can be found at:
http://www.conjelco.com/wsop97/bloch.html
It is the best illustration I have yet read for the ebb-and-flow of the game. I agree with Andy Ward's suggestion that it is impossible to criticize a particular play in a tournament without understanding the context of the play itself. Are the players on their heels when I bet? Do I currently have a tight image or not? [The answer to that can change in the space of an hour] Have I pushed so-and-so around enough that I'm confident the next time I do so he's coming over the top with anything, so I'll wait for a big hand to do it, etc.?
The Andy Bloch project was a hand-by-hand anaylsis of each of AB's 628 hands in the 1997 WSOP championship event.
I revisit this account every now and then. It's excellent. Andy made some great plays, but some mistakes also. A great learning experience if you take the time to go through the hands.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
In my weekly home tourney (described below) there is usually 1-3 weak players who are classic calling stations. If they hit any part of a board they will stay until the river and they will chase more than they should.
I am having difficulty playing against them when I have a vulnerable hand and position. I find that I fear giving them free cards if they are drawing but also can bleed a lot of chips if they check and call me to the end and I am beat.
Here is a hypothetical example:
I have JJ, raise in late position and get called by the BB.
Flop is Q78 two suited. BB checks, I bet, he calls. Turn is an A, BB checks...what is my play?
This player could have a large range of holdings in this situation: Any Queen, JT, T9, Ax, four flush, etc. and would play them all the same way. If I continue to bet and he calls me down with a pair of Q or A I can potentially lose a good size % of my stack. But...if he is on a draw and I check I give him infinite odds to beat me.
These situations come up quite a bit, especially when these players are nearly half the field. I find that I try to use my position and aggressiveness to convince them they are risking a lot by playing that way but when their cheese hits and my AK misses or an overcard to my big pair hits I can only shrug as they stack the chips. In a ring game I would be patient and wait for them to pay me off with second pair or the like, but in a tournament a single hand can really cripple you so I tend to want to play more conservatively if I might be beat.
Any tips appreciated.
KJS
In a tournament, when an overpair to your pocket pair flops, and someone called your preflop bet, I will generally try check it down - certain exceptions apply but I am usually happy to win what is in the pot already with an underpair to the board without burning off a pile of chips.
However, if, for example, you flopped top set or top pair (on a ragged board) with a big kicker (A or K only) and are against calling stations, be aggressive. Bet amounts that destroy their odds of hitting their hand. Most classic calling stations will make the mistake of calling - make them pay to draw out on you.
Ok, sometimes they will get there and they will usually bet into you (or raise you) on the turn or river when they make their flush or straight or miracle set and you can usually safely muck. (again exceptions apply to tricky, calling stations - yes they do exist and are smart enough - regardless of their knowledge of starting hands and drawing odds - to represent a made flush when in fact they have no more than a busted straight and they figure you are capable of folding - knowing your opponents is key)
It is their stupidity of calling unreasonable bets with underdog hands that make the games profitable for you. Of course you will get sucked out on every so often but thats poker.
Make em pay to do so.
Good Luck
It seems to me that calling stations are generally around only early in tournaments. I don't try anything tricky with them as they will generally call themselves out the tournament soon enough. So why force it?
In the example you cited, my experience is to check it down. Against a calling station, why try to make money with a nice starting hand that has turned to junk? Wait until you have a better hand then make them pay.
Tournaments are about adjusting to constantly changing playing conditions. Adjusting for weak players is just one of the variables.
KJS,
If you think you are behind without any reasonable chance to improve, then don't play. Losing the minimum with these hands is a big plus in tournaments. Saving a little here can pay big dividends down the road.
Against a calling station, this is definitely true because they will make you show down a better hand. You can't bluff/semibluff when your cards are face up. Recognize these players, then get them when it counts.
Best wishes, Mike
In your example, I would check JJ against 2 overcards. As you said there are too many possible hands that he could have you beat.
In general with AK in late position, I tend to bet the flop even if I miss and then check the turn depending on what happens.
Players that don't bet their hand and only call are tough when you don't have much, but these players will pay you off nicely when you do have a hand. So semi-bluffing or bluffing doesn't make any sense. With AK when you miss the flop against 2 of these players it probably makes sense to check. Sure you may be giving a free card but you have nothing except high card power. Plus when you do have something it usually does not make sense to try for the check-raise unless you know they will bet because these players like to call not bet.
Ken Poklitar
Don't forget that giving a free card to a single opponent who could have anything is not the end of the world. Sure, there are times when he'll suck out on you, but calling stations tend to call anyway so you won't make him lay down any hand that the flop hit (draw or made hand). Plus, in your example, you could already be beaten.
I would check it here, on the turn.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
s
Reading the hypothetical hand post below reminded me of a comment I once heard at a tournament. A player reraised all-in with aces and was called in two spots. He lost the hand and remarked "I wish I could've just shown you my aces and won the pot before the flop". A conversation then developed on the topic and it was decided that it would often be of benefit in no-limt play to simply turn your aces over and let everyone fold a sizeable pot to you preflop. Is this ethical? Variations on this theme are sometimes seen (i.e. insurance 'commonly', and card flashing 'less commonly'). Everyone pretty much agreed that it would not be ethical.
So here's a play I once made in a tournament... was it unethical?
It was a long time ago, so I don't remember the details, but I do remember what I held and what I did. I held Ah-7d in late position and raised- the BB called. The flop came with 3 diamonds and the BB bet into me. He was a weak player and I felt I could get him off this hand unless he held at least the Ace of diamonds and a pair or the flush, so I raised him and he quickly called. The turn came a black seven and he checked- weird- so I bet all-in. I knew he was weak, but he didn't fold right away... he hesitated and thought for a while... I could see that he was trying to decide if his draws were worth gambling with, and I had an idea. I held my cards up and showed him my seven of D and part of my red ace. He threw his cards in and said "yeah, I thought I was drawing dead." Was that unethical? At the time I was pretty proud of my brilliant play, but now I'm pretty sure it was deceitful and unethical. I've never before or since done anything remotely like that, but my question is: is it unethical to show your cards for strategic gain?
If you could bare my longwindedness, I would appreciate any comments.
Craig H
Yes, it is unethical in my book but I believe the onus lies with the casino/cardroom/tournament director(s) as to whether it should be deemed illegal and your hand mucked. Until they do so players will continue to make such moves and profit from them.
Craig,
All poker players must make decisions based on the information at hand. The fact that you exposed your cards (somewhat) to you opponent does not change this. Ultimately, he must make a decision. Your opponent almost seems relieved that you gave him more info than he deserved. IMO you're not being unfair to him because you gave him a break.
However, by this gesture, you are being unfair to every other player who was in the tournament. They are counting on you to bust out a player or vice versa, but instead give extra information that was not readily available to them on any previous hands. Thus, you have given your opponent an unfair advantage over the others in the field. Did you give anyone else an opportunity to lay down a marginal hand? If not, by definition, you discriminated against the entire field.
I had a situation like yours happen to me in a NLHE tournament. I was pondering an all-in move when my opponent purposely showed me his hand. I called the floor and had his hand declared dead right there for inducing action. BTW, I had the guy beat anyway and could have busted him; however, I just picked up what was in the pot at that point. The guy cursed me but later thanked me when he took 3rd place. Otherwise, if I had let the action stand, he would have not won any money.
To answer your question, I think it's unethical, but it can work to your benefit or disadvantage depending on the situation. I think my little story illustrates that.
I used to do the opposite at my home games. When I would be on a position to either call, fold or raise, I would show my cards to the other player. Based on their reactions to my cards is how I would play the hand. It usually worked pretty well.
I was watching a satelite for the WSOP a few months ago and I heard a guy who just got elimanted say he was going to do the same thing. He was talking with Tom Franklin at the time. Tom warned him that it was an unethical play and looked down upon as good poker.
I haven't done it since.
During the live broadcast feed during the $10,000 No Limit final table at the WSOP, the announcers called a particular move a "Great Play, gutsy, that's what no-limit is about". I personally thought that the play was one of the worst I'd ever seen. I'd love to hear other opinions. I'm going to skip the names of the particulars as I don't want to assign moves to the wrong player. Here it is....
8 or 9 players remain. Blinds at $10,000-$20,000. Someone limps in either UTG or first to act for the $20k. Another player raises to $80k. The last player makes it $300k. The limper goes all in for his remaining $430k, middle player folds, 3 bettor has to call as he can more than cover and is getting odds on the final $150 to call. He calls and turns over 2,7 off. The crowd goes wild and the announcers make the above statements. I say if the original bettor came in for $80 then he tried that move, sure, great play. But with a limper (trap?) a raiser and then that move... terrible play! Too much likelyhood that one of the two has a real hand. Yes the limper had a big hand... AA or KK (I never heard as feed was bad) and 2,7o lost.
What do you all think?
Keep playing hard
Sorry,
I've said this before but you simply can't definitively say that this was a bad (or good) play. Matusow (the re-raiser with 27) felt, for whatever reason, that his two opponents would lay their hands down often enough. You have to know what has been happening previously, the context of the whole table.
For example, you say that with a limper and a raiser, there is too much chance that one of them has a hand. But don't the first two players already know that Matusow knows that, thus they should respect his raise ? Or do they know that he knows they know he knows - fun this isn't it ?
He took a shot at the wrong time. Good or bad play, no-one can deny that it was gutsy for sure.
See also Craig's post above.
Andy.
I remember reading a long time ago to worry about a limper more than a raiser. Joe
Hi everyone, I have never played in a tournament before and I have some questions. Does all the money from entry fees (I'm talking about low entry fee tournaments-$20-50 etc) go into the prize pool, or does the casino take a percentage to pay for the dealers and other costs?? Also, say there are 100 participants, to what place do they pay, and what percentage of it goes to first place?? thanks
Jo, If it is a $25 buy in it is probably set up as $20 + $5. Which means that the house takes the $5 to cover its costs. Tipping the dealers is done by the money winners at the end of the tournament. I'm not sure what is standard. At the Trop in AC they pay out 9 places with first place getting somewhere between 30 and 40%. That is the $115 buy in. They may pay fewer places for low limit. But there is usually quite a drop from 1st place to 2nd. If you get in the money you usually get you buy in back plus some.
If you ask the casino, they will tell you how much of the fee is for the prize pool, and how much is vig for the house. They will also tell you how many get paid, what % to each place, and what the size of the average field and prizes is. All this stuff varies tremendously from one place to another, so no info you get on one casino is really very useful for any other.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
We all see bad plays all the time in real life but the pokerpages freeroll tournaments seem to throw up some real classics. I thought you would all enjoy the following hand I saw at my table last night.
Blinds 25/50 full table
Brainsurgeon chipleader (i.e. the guy with the big stack who plays every hand and raises with 73 suited etc) raises $100 UTG, only button (2nd biggest stack and a decent player from what I could ascertain) calls.
Flop As Qs 5s
UTG bets $200, button flat calls
Turn 9c
UTG bets $200 again, button reraises $600, UTG calls
River 4s (four spades on board)
UTG bets $400, button calls after some hesitation (he almost timed out)
UTG turns over 2d 3d for a gutshot nonflush straight.
Button had Ad Qc
Sorry but I'm still laughing...
Can you imagine, thru some bizarre lucky streak, that he went on to represent Pokerpages at the TOC?
Entertainment at its finest...
There's no question that you will often see some pretty goofy plays in poker tournaments, but there are many times when the seemingly "goofy" play is actually quite complex and represents a level of skill that may not be appreciated. I'm posting this because I frequently see very derogatory comments used to describe aggressive, unpredictable opponents... whereas players who are described as "solid" or "decent" are often nothing more than predictably tight aggressive players (the most desireable opponents in my opinion).
I don't know whether or not your UTG player was truly a moron or not... but perhaps this chipleader was chipleader for a reason. Let's look at this play: UTG raise with 2-3d... definitely won't be found in any book on winning strategy, but can be a very profitable play under the right circumstances; ie, getting everyone to fold except a predictable player who you know will call you with two big cards and reraise with a large pair. UTG has several things going for him at this point: 1. he knows what the caller has 2. UTG could have literally anything 3. if the flop hits him, it will likely miss his opponent, and 4. he has the "right of first bluff". There are worse situations to be in... and he's not an enormous dog either... it's not like he has pocket Jacks and the caller has Aces. Reading your account of the hand, I thought to myself "button has A-Q", UTG probably thought the same thing... maybe the long pause before calling the river was him considering an all-in reraise.
I know lots of "solid" players and enjoy playing against them. I had to sit to the immediate right of Nani Dollison during an event at the WPO. It was maddening. I thought she was the worst player I've ever seen. Then she won the limit WSOP event against 600+ opponents and I thought "well, that's the kind of luck you can see when you play that crazy!" Then she won the Women's event a few days later. Hmmm.
All is not as it appears.
Craig H.
,.,.,.,.
I agree 100% with you Craig. It is critical to mix up your play and make some goofy plays now and again to throw astute opponents off. I do it myself.
But trust me on the guy in my post. He was a moron. He was calling big raises and reraises cold with hands like J2o, Q3o, 95o, any Ace and any King etc and his rags were hitting. He didnt last long - went out in 40th place or thereabouts. I honestly believe he thought 2d 3d was a good hand UTG.
But your post is an excellent and correct one and I am very aware of such plays.
Good Luck.
I agree that sometimes things are not as they seem.
Based on how the hand was played out I would guess this was not an example of a "higher level of play". I tend to believe the UTG was a goofy pokerpages player who played the hand badly and won.
Ken Poklitar
UTG blinds $300/$600 15 left and 8 at our table I have $8500 and raise with AcTc. Table is tightened up recently and I am looking for the blinds here - I have taken them a couple of times from early position - I raise to $1200 - it is reraised, called and capped before it gets back to me there are 2 tight players in the hand now - I muck it thinking I am drawing dead except to the flush.
Comments.
Flop doesn't make any difference suffice it to say clubs hit and I would have won the biggest pot of the night and been on my way to the final table.
you must pass
your hand is dominated - no question
I agree with the fold. ATs is not good enough against a raise and a re-raise from reasonable players.
Ken Poklitar
I disagree with the others. I would call and see the flop. By my count, there are going to be 15.5 bets in the pot, and it will cost you 2 more to see the flop, and it is now capped. While you will frequently fold after the flop, the chances of catching a flush, a nut flush draw, a straight, a good straight draw (double-gutter), or trips is enough to justify the call here. You have to fold if you flop top pair and there is ANY action, but you are more than capable of doing that.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
So you are getting about 7.75:1 from the pot.
where would you draw the line? 7:1? 6:1? 5:1?
Or, in other words, how often will you catch a good enough hand to make it worth it?
Also, what's the maximum % of your stack would you be willing to put in here or do you feel, whatever your stack size, this is a too good opportunity to pass?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I had some chips to protect and the players were dropping like flies - If the pre flop hadn't been capped I sure would have seen this flop but this was the 1st cap of the night and I just didn't like the smell of it.
I'm not sure where I would draw the line.
The other factors also went into the decision. That is, the fact that Rounder would still have a sufficient number of chips compared to the blinds if he misses the flop (which, admittedly, he will frequently do), plus the facts about where he is at in the tourney. I think these factors are very important. If Rounder had raised and had 4 bets left in his stack, I might consider folding rather than putting 2 more of them into the pot. 4 would be enough to steal the blinds in the next hand or two, while 2 bets wouldn't. Yet, to miss out on a chance to have about 21-25 bets rather than folding to save 4, argues for a call.
It is a tough decision at any time. If it were early and everybody still had 20 or more bets in their stack, it would be an easy call. Any time after the first few rounds have passed, where everybody is somewhat short-stacked, and decisions like these are hard.
If I'm right about calling, or wrong, I doubt it's a huge mistake either way. The only huge mistake would be to call and then get married to the pot on a flop of Th8h5s.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree with Greg, I call here. Potential for a monster is justified by the pot odds and implied odds and you would still have some money left if you have to bail out. If I had to go all-in, or if it was no-limit, I would usually fold... if not always.
This is an example of the type of hand that I feel you have to play in limit tournaments because of the potential to significantly improve your chip count at a critical time in the tournament without risking everything. I would not make the same play anywhere near as often in the middle stages. FWIW
CH
Thanks guys it was not an easy fold that's why I posted it.
I'm walking around the Luxor looking for the cardroom. It's early and I've got nothing to do for a few hours so I sign up for my first hold em tournament. Nothing much, $25 buy in and a rebuy(I didn't know what that meant so I didn't do it). Only two tables in tourny. Next thing I know I am at the final table with 4 people. Someone wants to split the money, the other one agrees, I shrugged and said I would do whatever. Semi-obnoxious lady to my left says she's not interested. I get to heads up with her. I'm sitting to her right and everytime she bets she turns to me and stares. She has me out chipped by a lot but i manage to get even. Now she wants to chop. I said, "this is my first tourny and I'm here from PA, let's keep playing." I did want to see if I could win my first tourny but I also was annoyed that she waited until we were even to want to chop. Plus the others were watching and I felt like I owed it to them to beat her since she turned down their offer. Was this a rude or unethical thing for me to do?
I won by the way.
Nothing wrong with that. if you don't want to chop, you don't have to chop. Nothing unethical about not chopping. Good job beating her!
toweak ace .the rebuy u refered to is 2.00 for 2 extra green chips only . as its a shoot out only .the 2 goes to the dealers as a toke . ?? was the obnoxious one a lady of color??? .i play that touny all the time when i go to vegas .. next time u go try the touny next door at manerlay bay same format . it starts at 10 am 3 player max . if u do not make it u can then go to luxor and make there touny at 12 noon . 29 player max . i want to know who is the ab one is i have an idea .
This rebuy (btw now i know what a rebuy is) was something like $10 for 50 more chips. I just didn't know what I was doing at the time or I would have done it. This lady was white and heavy set.
ok .thanks . they must have changed format i have not been ther this yr yet . inomaly go every 2 months or so . you get to know the players .about 50% are local players in that touny .same bunch every day .they all used to play at the RIO CASINO TOUNY before it closed .
No it wasn't rude or unethical. Deals are fine if you are happy with it but don't get pushed into a deal.
Congratulations on the win!
Ken Poklitar
It is never rude nor unethical to turn down any deal. Nor is it rude or unethical to offer any deal. The only thing that is unethical is if you make a secret deal with 1 or a group of players, yet don't include all the players remaining in the tourney.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I feel asking for a deal is an announcement they are unhappy playing against you heads-up. To me, it's a real sign of weakness on their part, particularly, if the chip count is close. Congratulations! Joe
joe wrote: "it's a real sign of weakness on their part"
You may be right more often than you're wrong, especially in a low limit tourney like this. However, there are plenty of tournament pros, probably a majority, that are ALWAYS ready to discuss a deal, no matter what the chip count. Often, they will only accept a deal they consider advantageous, but that doesn't mean they won't make the first offer.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I was watching from the rail while a friend of mine was playing in a local Garden City Limit Hold'Em tournament on Tuesday which was a $40 buyin + 1 $40 rebuy. There were three players left. My friend in seat 5 was sitting with his back to the rail and people could occasionally see his cards, the player to his left in seat 7 was not very careful about hiding his cards, so most of the railbirds behind him could see his cards, and I was unable to see the third player's cards in seat 9.
The following situation occurred which caused some alarm for me. My friend is the chip leader, and has been thoroughly dominating the final table, his stack is probably somewhat larger than the other two stacks put together. On the button, my friend mucks, then I see the small blind muck KQs. This seems to me a very strange play, and the it sticks with me. Seat 7's play had been generally tighter than the rest of the table I would say, but with a tendency to undervalue overcards. Later I hear in a side conversation with a stranger that of the final 4, three of the guys are good friends(my friend being the one left out). Finally, with the same three players I saw a similar situation where my friend mucks, then the small blind mucks A8s, which also seems extremely unusual in a heads up situation, unless he is soft playing his friend.
In their defense, Seat 9 eventually put out Seat 7, and my friend chopped the pot two ways, but it still was worrisome. Should I have talked to the tournament director? I can think of no situation where the plays made are justifiable as good poker with so little information.
thoughts appreciated, hubt
I'd like comments on the following situation that happened to a friend of mine last week.
He was playing in a Limit HE tourney, the first tourney held by that casino. Paid top 3. (50-30-20) The structure was awfull, it's like they don't research anything, management is doing their best, but often times it is not enough, IMO.
A floorman once told me after I asked why they only seated 7 players instead of 8 on their stud tables "Son, do you know how much 7 times 8 makes. This is SEVEN card stud". I replied, "Sir, this is seven CARD stud, not seven player stud, I have yet to see a hand where all 8 players go to the showdown and in any case there is a way." Anyway, they are trying.
So here the thing:
They are down to the last 4 players. 3 players (including my friend)have about equal stacks and the fourth has about the equivalent of the other 3 alltogether. One of the shorter stacks proposes a deal to include the 4th player. Big stack says no no. Then here is the part which I feel is wrong, the other 3 players decide that they will split whatever prize money they get among them. They end up fourth (0%), second and first (30+50).
My friend assures me that no unethical plays were made.
I think the big stack should told the floor he would not play with this deal because:
1. It did not include him and he is still an axtive player; 2. Collusion could take place, since they are essentially ganging up on him.
He should have proposed that they all take a portion of the second or third place prize and create a fourth. That way, his first place money would not have been touched. Or he simply could have objected to the whole thing.
I also think the floor should have stepped in, as they were aware if the discussions. Like I said, they are trying.
comments? also, what would you have done if you had been the big stack and you hear they wanted to make that deal?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I was in a similar situation once. 1st (80% of chips) did not want to deal. The other 3 including me all were about even. We gave 1st his money, split the rest and the tourney ended. I am not sure why this wasn't done. This seems like the obvious solution. If 1st wouldn't agree to this then that makes things tricky.
I don't like the idea of 3 players agreeing to split the money because as you said collusion could happen.
Ken Poklitar
How bizarre. We are discussing this situation in the forum and in last nights NL tourney the same situation comes up. Top 3 are paid. 1st had piles of chips. We split up 2nd and 3rd between the 3 remaining players.
Deja vu.
Ken Poklitar
The answer is VERY clear hear, and there should be NO deviation from this rule: ALL players left in any tournament must agree on any proposed deal that affects any of the remaining players. Period. If one person doesn't want it, there's no deal... even if it's something a simple as a "save". The management should know this and quickly end the discussion once one players declines.
CH
I was having a conversation with one of the railbirds after this tournament was over, and we both agreed that this was VERY unethical, and should have been stopped immediately by the floor. And although no unethical plays may have been made, it did seem as though only one of the three players was in any given hand against the big stack at a time.
To be fair, the person who finished 4th seemed to be the one behind this, as he was basically trying to bully the big stack into accepting a deal he was trying to negotiate after it got down to the four of them. The other two just seemed to go along.
BTW, if your friend is the one I'm thinking of (from Quebec?), I was at his table for the last two hours, and we both agreed with everything you said off the top about the structure. I thought he played very well, to boot.
--Chris
Yes, that was him, unless there were 2 players from Montreal.
We will try to talk to the manager to try to get thing better in the future. I sincerely hope they clear their act.
BTW, my friend is not very good, just kidding P.... :-)
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Me , Pierre , Steeven , and few other that I don't know the name . Anyway , is it unethical frum Pierre to having knocked me out from the tournement if we consider that he didn't knew about the tournement a day before until I told him ? Just kiding ... And I think that my English is very terrible
Unfortunately, a deal like this is collusion, EVEN if the players do not actively change their play against the big stack.
The thing is, all three short-stacks can now relax, and play to win. They do not have to fold marginal hands, even hands that are clearly slightly better than marginal, for fear of going broke in 4th place and getting nothing. So, one of the main weapons of the big stack is being removed by this deal, even when the short stacks do not actively collude against him.
Unfortunately, if these 3 guys make this deal, and trust one another, there is little the floor can do about it. I mean, they cannot prevent these guys from splitting up the money outside the casino.
The thing to do is exactly what Craig H said. As soon as the floor hears any one person object to the deal, the floor should squash further discussion. In this way, the short stacks won't have a chance to orally agree, and how can they trust one another when they never even had a chance to say "yes" to the deal? You can't expect a guy to share his 2nd place money with you when he never SAID he would, right? The floor shoudl quickly say "There has been objection, so no deal may be made. Only deals agreed to by ALL remaining players are allowed." Then, he instructs the dealer to deal the cards.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I got down to six handed in no-limit hold-em tourney that paid 5 places. 1st 2100 2nd 900 down to 5th 300.
I'm on shortest stack. A somewhat weak player with a slight chip lead went all in ahead of me 5 times. I folded A-J on two of those occasions. I was doing well being the lead bettor and taking the blinds and did not want to risk going out to an A-Q or higher.
I did outlast the weak player, but came in 5th. I think I did not give myself enough of a chance to win the event.
Should I have called all in (heads-up) with my A-J?
What kind of cards was the weakish player showing or was he winning without showdown?
My guess is that your AJ is ahead of him more often than not. Of course the decision you have is do you want to wait for him to get called by someone else and guarantee yourself 5th place or do you want to call and hope to double up and try to get to a higher position.
To me if by doubling up you have a reasonable chance to make the top 3 then that might be a good option. If by doubling up you are still in 5th then being happy with 5th probably makes sense.
Ken Poklitar
thanks Ken, I was hoping to hear from you.
Noone called any of his raises so I did not see his cards. I can guess that probably 3 times he had weak holdings, but which 3?
I think doubling through would have given me a decent shot at 3rd. They were both tough lay downs and I think if in that situation again I would call.
it also depends on the amount of money involved
if the pay out was very top heavy and 5th just gave you your buyin x 2 back it's probably worth gambling
if 4th and 5th though are worth some decent money folding may be OK - also, as Ken says you have to consider if doubling up would put you in contention for a top 3 finish
To give you a really good answer, I'd want to know the exact chip counts of all 5 players, the size of the blinds, how soon the blinds are going up, and a general description of how tight/loose each person was playing.
If he's going all-in for 20x the blinds, and you also have almost that much, it argues strongly for folding. Let him get caught and go broke first. If you and he only have 3-4x the blinds, and the other stacks are all not that much bigger (let's say 6-12x), it argues for calling if you think you're likely ahead.
The problem with AJ is that even if this guy hasn't looked at his cards, you're less than a 2-1 favorite.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This is a hypothetical question:
I recently played a limit Hold'em tournament that had a structure of T300 chips to start with no rebuys. It started at blinds of 5-10 with the limits increasing every 20 minutes.
I didn't finish in the money, but I got to the point where the blinds were 300-600 and at one point I had T4000.
Now, my question is: Is it possible to duplicate this in a ring game? Start with $200 and play 3-6 for a half hour, then move up to 6-12, then 9-18, then 15-30, then 20-40, then 30-60, maybe top it off with 40-80.
I rarely ever see limits like the 300-600 in the casinos I play, so for the sake of this example 40-80 is the cap.
Say I was able to parlay the $200 into $2000 by the time it was reasonable to quit. This would be more than first place in that tournament and if I succeeded 2 times out of 10, I would make a nice profit.
Any thoughts?
I've done the same thing half a dozen times but have been embarassed to admit it to my very knowledgeable friends. Better yet, only raise the limits when you've won at a previous limit. If you haven't won at the first limit, keep playing that limit till you are broke.
If you do decide to do this, make sure to do your darnest best not to let anyone at the table know you're doing it. Don't ever let anyone know that you are on "tournament mode" or else they will take advantage of it.
Do not let time determine when the limits should be moved up. Let the rise in equity do it instead. Start with 300 at 6-12. If you lose 150 move down to 3-6 and play that limit till you're either broke or win back the 150 in which case you move up to 6-12 again. If, however, you win 200 (bringing your tournament stack to 500), immediately move up to 10-20. If you win 300 more (bringing your tournament stack to 800), move up to 20-40. And so on till you reach 2000-4000 against Chip and Doyle. If you win even more, play the options market betting no more than 1/5 of your tournament stack at a time on slightly in the money puts and calls. This method follows the "bet sizing concept" in black jack.
I've made it as high as 200-400 before losing my nerves and calling off the tournament. I started with 500 at 10-20.
The only problem with this strategy is that generally in a tournament, once you reach level 4 or 5, you have less than 10 BB left, as do the majority of players. However, if you are in ring games, everyone will have much in excess of this, so you will be shortstacked at every table you move to.
And they will be making plays you cannot make. They will be semi-bluffing at a time where they likely wouldn't if they were in the same tourney as you. And a thousand other examples.
I've heard this idea before. I suspect that it is not a profitable play, or at least that it is less profitable than if you just stayed in whatever game your total bankroll could afford.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
But what if you do not scale up to a higher limit until after you have accumulated more than enough bets to make creative and aggressive plays (if needed) at the higher limit? Wouldn't this solve the short-stack tournament mode problem?
You either are playing at a low level so long that this is going to take days, or when you do move up you're still only 1 or 2 hands away from being practically broke.
If you wait until you have 10 big bets at the next level before moving up, you will frequently never get there in one day.
If you don't wait, you will always be risking a quick exit.
Basically, I consider this a variant of a Martingale betting system. When it works, it works great. When it doesn't, it fails miserably. However, in the long run, all you're doing with the system is increasing variance. If you have an edge within each individual game, at the end of the year your profit will reflect the size of that edge and the hours spent in each game. I don't think you'll win more by doing this. If it's fun and you can afford it, great. Go ahead. If you're trying to increase your win this way, I don't think it will work.
If nothing else, most of us don't have much, if any, experience playing in the 200-400 game. As such, we probably have a -EV once we get there. A very small -EV in 200-400 can quickly wipe out many hours of a big +EV in 5-10. Plus, the fact that even if your EV in 200-400 is only negative to the tune of a very few dollars per hour, just losing one hand played all the way will cost you something like $1400-2000. Even a very good 5-10 player will require 2-4 weeks of full-time play to earn that much.
Again, if you start the system with a few hundred that you can easily lose, and you enjoy the process, no problem. If you were a pro trying to earn a livelihood, it is a mistake, most likely.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You're right. It's not really something I do full-time. I've only done it six times. Got wiped out 3 times, made some money twice, and made a killing once.
It's a thing to do only on the side, an activity that is partly a substitute for a real tournament and partly a substitute for bringing 500 bucks to the craps table and playing it Jack Strauss-style (but with less risk).
It really falls under "trying to make a score" rather than "trying to win consistently". It's a trying to get lucky in the short term kind of activity.
But I'm sure that if on a particular day, you have the same amount of luck as the tournament player who was lucky enough to make it to the final table of a 200 player event, you're bound to make a score.
This isn't even fuzzy thinking...it's beyond fuzzy thinking. There are so many reasons this won't work over the long haul.
In a tournament you're playing against the same group of players with the same limited bankroll as you. In a live game you're not. They can replinish at any time. Also, as you go up in limits, you are probably facing tougher competition.
In most tournament, everybody get short stacked as the tournament progresses. In this example, you will be short stacked and your opponents probably are not going to be.
In a tournament, your opponents are playing in survival mode at some point. In a live game they are not, so the play of the hands will not be the same.
In live play, the winner in the long haul is the person who plays the best poker. In tournaments, you have to play good poker, but you also have to be lucky and most importantly you have to avoid being unlucky. No matter how good you play, you're going to get unlucky some of the time. That's why even the best tournament players only win xx% of the time. If you're playing in tournament mode, that's your expectation. The good players in your live game have an expectation of winning at a much higher percentage.
I usually do better in tournaments. My style is better suited for them. I seem to have a better feel for how my opponents are going to act/react in given situations. It's just not the same as live games.
JohnnyD
Playing a local NL tourney last night. We are at the final table. Top 3 get paid. We have just lost 1 player so we are down to 9.
There are 2 of us in the BB. Blinds are 2k-4k. I have 13k (average stack) before posting the 2nd big blind. The other BB has 11K.
I have Ks5c. Flop is Qs9s2s. 1st player checks and I decide to check as well.
Turn is 6s. 1st guy bets 5k. I go all-in. 1st guy folds. I win a nice pot :)
Two questions here on the flop play.
1) Do people think I should go all-in on the 2nd nut flush draw here or is checking better?
2) If the 1st player goes all-in or bets half his stack is it an obvious call?
Ken Poklitar
2 bigs? Is there a small blind on the button?
You and he each post 4K, and you have 9K left, while he has 7K left? He bets 5 of his 7 on the turn, and then folds to your raise? Wow!
Whether I would check on the flop or not depends entirely upon this opponent. If you check, will he take this as a sign of weakness and bluff the turn? If so, I wouldn't check, as you won't be able to call his bluff bet unless you catch a card, right? I mean, just because your check will induce a bluff doesn't mean he couldn't also be slowplaying a good hand. Or, he could have a good pair and wants to see what you do with the all-spade board before he commits any chips. So, a check by you on the flop might reduce his fear rather than merely induce his bluff.
If you bet the flop, how often will he call with a worse hand? How often will he call with any pair? Will he require a made flush, As, or some other very strong hand/draw to call? If he will fold pretty often, and doesn't slow play a lot, then a flop bet is almost mandatory. There is 8K or 10K (small blind question) in the pot, and your stack is 9K. This is not a pot you can afford to give up on, especially when you have outs that are probably good at least 1/3 of the time, and especially since there is a good chance that checking is giving, rather than taking, a free card.
Once you make the second nut flush, you have to commit to the hand. I can't believe he folded for 2K more. I think you did right to raise now. If he has the As, the money is going to go in on the river, and if he doesn't, you want to make him pay now while he still has a draw (or so he thinks) to the best hand. Plus, if he has any spade, he almost has to call. I suspect he had a pair or nothing, and was pure bluffing.
Glad you won (almost all his chips).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Yeah I should have said there was a small on the button. There was 10k in the pot to start things off.
I was certainly shocked when he folded to my raise. It was obviously a complete bluff since if he had any spade he should surely call. The player in question is one of the local dealers. I have been on the final table twice with him he seems fairly weak. The last time, he was the chip leader by a lot and pissed away all the chips and missed the money.
I do think that going all-in on the flop is probably the best play. I can pickup the pot at that point if he folds plus I did a quick sim and it looks like he is only about a 55% favorite assuming he has one pair.
So based on that if he does go all-in on the flop it seems to make sense to call since there would be 17k in the pot and I would need to add 7k.
Ken Poklitar
Here are my comments:
1) If you think he missed and does not have the ace of clubs, then betting (all-in) is ok if you feel he will fold a high % of hands. Checking is also a viable option if you think your opponent is likely to bluff at you on the turn and then you could opt to move-in as a semi-bluff resteal. (if you did not hit)
2) I wouln'd say it's an obvious play. It mostly depends on your read of the player. If you think you are leading, like he could be betting a hand like J8 or T7, then calling is a viable play because you will need to get some chips. And you also do have the 2nd nut flush draw.
However, I'm not sure I like your turn raise all-in. Are you really going to get called by a weaker hand here? If he has the ace then doh! You have the K, the Q is on the board, will this player call you with the Js (or a lower spade) at this stage of the tourney? I'm not sure a lot would. Why not flat call, and hope he bluffs again on the river?
Comments?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I should pay more attention, it's getting late, I've had a hard week. I think I'm going home now.
I thought you and him had 13K and 11K after posting which made your stacks bigger. In essence, I did not think he was necessarily commited to this pot after the turn bet. (looks like he thought he was not)
With the smaller stacks (9K and 7K), I agree with Greg, I can't believe he folded for the extra 2K. Obviously, if you are going to call the 5K turn bet, then you are now commited and should put in your last 4K as he is now more commited and should call with his last 2K with a large number of hands.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Thanks for the comments. Have a good weekend!
Ken Poklitar
I was in a HE tourney, which was down to 5 players. NL, since it was last table.
7 places paid: $1600, 800, 520, 360, 280, 240, 200, so we were all in the money. (Entry was 50+5, 60 players, caz added 1000.)
Let's call players, A, B, C=me, D, E.
Only yellow chips on table, stacks were (about) A=24, B=6, C=6, D=1, E=55, before posting blinds.
In this hand A=sb, B=bb, C=me=UTG. Blinds are 1 & 2. I have ATo, raise to 6 all in. sb calls with J8o. T on flop, J on river, I lose, bust out, 5th.
Should I hve done anything different? Perhaps I could have clung on for 4th or 3rd.
Previous hand: perhaps my biggest mistake was in the previous hand I raised to 4 with K5o, and monster stack reraised a bunch and I folded (as did all others). Was this reckless?
Obviously I would have been happy to steal blinds each time, though second hand was much stronger.
But the main issue is, how should I have played given these particular stack sizes.
(BTW, final placing was E, A, D, B, C.)
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
K5o - Blinds are 1,2. You have 10, if I read it right. Normal raise would be to 6. If the bet/raise takes more than half your stack, rule of thumb is to go all-in. So, I think your raise to 4 was a mistake. It smells like somebody trying to give himself an out. Chip leader may have reraised with a weaker hand just because of this. Even if E doesn't, A is the BB that hand, and with his stack of 26, he can easily call 2 more to try and crack you with anything. Summary - Either fold or go all-in here with any hand (very few exceptions). K5o was a clear fold, given that B has fewer chips than you, and must face the blinds first, plus D is sitting there with 1 chip. Wait until D is the big blind, and all-in for less than you, before you make a move without having a premium hand.
ATo - This is a decent hand, especially 5-handed. However, with B in the big blind, and going to be forced to play all-in before you, and D with 1 chip also going to be forced all-in soon, I would fold this hand. Fold and hope that when one of the chip leaders raises, B will feel pot-stuck (especially since you've shown a willingness to NOT gamble, meaning B will have to gamble first). If I were B, and one of the chip leaders raised, I would either go all-in blind (playing for a high finish) or I would fold anything but a monster (waiting for D to bust before I make a move). Either strategy is defensible, but letting yourself get down to 3 chips really sucks. Because you're after B, you don't have to face quite the same problem, and are much better situated. If B finds any kind of reasonable hand, and you and D have folded, B is pretty likely to play it, and probably gets knocked out around half the time. This moves you up to 4th, with D ready to post all-in right away. Also, if you fold here, D might be inclined to play if he has a good hand, whereas when you put yourself all-in, D will fold many very good hands, on the hope that you get busted and move him up the ladder. So, who knows, if you fold, you might move up to 3rd on this very hand! (I admit it's not that likely)
I would tend to fold both hands under these cirucmstances.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks. Your analysis of the K5o hand was spot on. I realised it as soon as bigstack reraised. Another thought I had was that if I didn't blunder on the K5o hand, I would have had 10 chips on the ATo hand. Supposing I had those 10 chips, what do you think of an all in move now? I would probably steal the blinds (1+2) although you might reasonably ask, why bother. Such a bet is still in jeopardy from the bigger stacks, but chances are they would not challenge such a bet.
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
I think with ATo UTG I would also raise all-in. The difference between 5th and 4th is only 80. I think raising and winning gives you a better shot at 3rd.
I don't like your previous raise with K4o. That seems a little too aggressive and probably unnecessary.
Ken Poklitar
Dirk,
I would sit tight and muck both hands and give D a chance to bust first. Even if you didn't play the K5, I would still muck AT under-the-gun. Futhermore, you will have a good posibility to move up to third.
I would play a little differently... what Greg says makes sense, but I tend to be a little more aggressive in situations like this because I feel it leads to more first place finishes. With the K-x off hand I would either fold or go all in (probably fold). With A-10 I would definitely raise all-in. As a general rule, if you are in a position where you can either play a strong hand or fold and move up a spot or two, I would prefer to take the initiative and play the hand.
If you had folded the K-x and had 10 chips when you were dealt the A-10, I would actually consider just calling the blinds and hoping that someone came over the top of me so I could call. It's close, but I think that 5 handed you can play A-10 as a powerful hand. There are several hands that your opponents would make a move with that you would dominate, and you'd be about 50-50 against any pair smaller than 10s. If you call the blinds and nobody raises, you have a nice hand to play after the flop. If an Ace or 10 comes you'll have the best hand, and if a J,Q or K comes you can make a move and still have an out if you get called by top pair.
Craig H
K5 is a fold... AT is an all in... IMO
craig, i must disagree w/ the possibility of calling w/ th AT... how can u give a garbage hand a chance to catch... the post flop play is tricky at best unless u catch an A or T... the KQJ flopping and B betting all in on u is a call id prefer not to make... thus i think the all in preflop is the better way to play this.
peter
Although I've done fairly well in my local NL and Limit tournaments, I've noticed that my starting hand requirements are more or less the same for both games. Is this more or less normal or are there big differences? I play really tight and bet very aggressively when I flop well or if I'm on a steal attempt.
I know that my stack size definitely plays a big part of my thought process in the Limit tourneys. For example, if I have a ton of chips, I'm willing to call in middle position with hands like 9-10 suited and Q10o in a Limit tourney, but would rarely ever play these hands in NL (when I do I usually raise to try to steal the blinds).
Also, what do you guys like to do with a hand like QJs in a NL tourney? Let's say you're in middle position, everyone else folds to you, you have an average stack, and it's in the middle of the tourney?
I see a lot of players in the Limit tourneys play fairly loose early on, while I pretty much just sit there and wait for fairly premium hands (pocket pairs, A-big, Axs, etc.) Should I loosen up in Limit or am I doing the right thing by not gambling as much as the other players in the game? I'd really like some advice on what different starting hand considerations you guys have in NL vs. Limit.
Thanks in advice for your advice and comments.
Some very interesting questions. Here's one thought, and I'll have more later.
"Also, what do you guys like to do with a hand like QJs in a NL tourney? Let's say you're in middle position, everyone else folds to you, you have an average stack, and it's in the middle of the tourney?"
Definately call. Hope to see the flop. If you get raised, well, that's when the skill of NL comes into play. Your either going to call the reraise,raise, or fold. Depends who raises and how much. I'm always thinking when I just call, am I going to call the reraise, raise or fold. If I just call, I have a plan for the button and blinds when in this position.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
Medium pairs go up in No-limit and down in limit HE.
Here's a situation that I run into quite a bit. I'm in a limit tourney and let's assume that I have an average chip stack. Someone opens with a raise and everyone folds to me in the BB. I have either Ax or Kx. The raiser is a decent player who could be holding anything from any pocket pair or two big cards. He also has an average chip stack. I usually fold in this situation and let the guy take the blinds. Is this correct or should I sometimes defend my blind with a hand like Ax or Kx?
If he is in a steal position ( button, cutoff) I would defend almost always.
If he is not in a steal position I call quite often when x is an okay kicker since you are getting decent pot odds 3.5 to 1. In this situation having Kx might be better than Ax because it is quite possible he has Ax with a better kicker.
Ken Poklitar
I've been told I defend my blinds too liberally, but in your example, I'm going to defend my blinds with any Ace, any suited K and at times any king.
JohnnyD
Depending on the player, I will call the raise. Then, I will often raise whatever the flop is. If he's on a steal, I want him to commit more money even though the flop missed him as it will most of the time.
I make a lot of tournament money this way - it generally outweighs the cost of when my opponent does have a real hand.
If it is a player who hasn't been stealing much (or any), or a calling station who has raised, you may be dominated and the flush draw or maybe a straight draw is your only out - hence, fold pre-flop.
with T2o? What if the raiser is in early-middle position? And tight?
;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg is referring to a hand we played against each other on the second day of the TOC last year. It was the Hold'em round. Greg was the first to enter the pot and he raised. Everybody folded to me, on the big blind. I called and won with one pair, the 2's if I remember correctly.
It was a long time ago, Greg, but if I remember correctly we had already started antes so the pot odds made the call more correct than if we didn't have antes. Right?
JohnnyD
This was still limit HE, so there were no antes. You called me all the way after flopping bottom pair (yes, it was the 2s, though I forget how threatening the rest of the board was) and beat my unimproved AK.
Nice hand sir, well played!
;-) Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I would strongly disagree with the other posters. You are playing against an early position raiser, so there are very few hands that wouldn't have you beat. I think it's a clear fold.
A-x is a very playable hand short handed or against a steal attempt... but at a full limit table with an early or middle position raiser it's worthless.
K-x is a money loser in anything but heads-up play. You're a huge dog to any ace, a bigger king, or any pair... so what do you think the raiser could have that you would want to play against?
Even though suited connectors are classically considered "multiway pot hands", you can defend your blinds with them much more effectively than you can with an unrelated high card hand like A-x. The reason is that you don't have to worry about getting sucked into a pot with a top pair/worse kicker situation. Also, they're great trap hands when you hit the flop.
Craig H
Craig,
A few points.
1) Jaces post was not position specific. I agree you need to be much more careful against early position raises.
2) In his post you are heads-up if you call. You are getting 3.5 pot odds to calls. It is unlikely your Ax or Kx is that big of a dog. Plus you are both in reasonable chip positions in the post.
3) You do need to be careful if you hit top pair on the flop. Post flop play is the key.
4) Early position raises are likely to be big aces or medium-large pairs. I would rather defend the blind with Kx in this situation. I still probably defend with Ax but I am quite leary if I hit an ace.
5) Medium position raises could be any reasonable hand including some steal attempts so Ax is safer because the the raiser could have many hands headed by a King or a lower pair.
Ken Poklitar
i agree w/ craig... this is a tournament where every chip is valuable... u arent nearly as concerned w/ making marginal value calls, where over time ull make a fraction of a bet... these trouble hands r gonna get u in a world of hurt... especially when u hit... and against an early pos raiser u r very likely dominated w/ a better kicker.
peter
I disagree with you here, Ken. You say an early position raiser probably has a big ace or medium large pair... why on earth would you want to play K-x or A-x against this type of hand?
I think the vast majority of times an early or middle postion raiser is going to have a medium-high pair or larger, or Ace-big. You say you probably aren't that big of a dog, but if you run a simulation with K-x or A-x against these hands, you will find out how big a dog you are.
Craig H
Craig H and OhKanada are both right.
You are almost certainly behind, but at 3.5:1, you are getting good enough pot odds to call.
The question is how will you do postflop? If you are good enough at reading this particular opponent, then you should defend. If you're not, fold.
The initial call, getting 3.5:1, is clearly correct. However, if you're also going to lose an average of 1 bet postflop, then you're really only getting 3.5:2.5, which isn't enough. If you're going to lose 2 bets postflop, it's even money, and we know that's not good enough for your hand. You need to be in a position to break even or win bets postflop, even though the raiser has position on you. Often, folding is correct. If you're a great hand-reader, then calling becomes correct (sometimes even re-raising).
Which way YOU should play the hand is not the same as how a new player should play, or Doyle Brunson should play. You'll have to figure out, for each hand and each opponent, which side of the line you're on.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
.
Craig H and OhKanada are both right.
You are almost certainly behind, but at 3.5:1, you are getting good enough pot odds to call.
The question is how will you do postflop? If you are good enough at reading this particular opponent, then you should defend. If you're not, fold.
The initial call, getting 3.5:1, is clearly correct. However, if you're also going to lose an average of 1 bet postflop, then you're really only getting 3.5:2, which isn't enough. If you're going to lose 2.5 bets postflop, it's even money, and we know that's not good enough for your hand. You need to be in a position to break even or win bets postflop, even though the raiser has position on you. Often, folding is correct. If you're a great hand-reader, then calling becomes correct (sometimes even re-raising).
Which way YOU should play the hand is not the same as how a new player should play, or Doyle Brunson should play. You'll have to figure out, for each hand and each opponent, which side of the line you're on.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
should we ignore both?? can't decide if you are more agreeable, or disagreeable... Jim
I witnessed this hand in a in a HE pot limit tournament last 3 players prize money £640 - 1st £300 - 2nd £150 - 3rd. Level blinds at T1,500. Chip postions SB about T30,000 BB about T40,000 UTG T6,000.
Action UTG folds, SB checks, BB bets the pot SB calls. Flop Pair QQ9 rainbow both check turn 2 SB bets the pot BB raises setting SB all in SB calls. SB shows AA BB shows 55. River 5. exit SB to crys of "bad beat".
Question was it a bad beat ?
Losing to 55 is never a bad beat. (RGP files)
I think it is a mistake to slow play aces. Since the small blind just called, the big blind was fairly sure that the flop of queen-queen-nine did not help him, since the small blind did not raise preflop. There is a chance here that the big blind might have folded the fives on the flop if the small blind raised preflop and bet the flop.
Anyway, the small blind trapped himself with his own trap. The small blind was only a 4.5-to-1 favorite, so I don't consider that a bad beat, just unlucky.
if you consider a loss to a 21 to 1 shot then it was...regardless of how AA wad played. Jim
I think the guy with AA played the hand perfectly. He got all his chips in when a huge favourite.
He got outdrawn.
Shit happens.
Cheers,
Keith
Keith
I agree it was a near perfect trap on a loose aggressive player, but the only way he could finish 3rd is go to war with the chip leader while I was trying to find 2 cards that hung together to make my final stand.
Just reraising preflop would have won the pot with 2nd place pretty much sown up with at least an even money chance of doubling his prize.
Was this the right time to make this play ?
No-limit daily tourney,
Blinds $15-25, one middle-position limper, i call with 33, guy on my left who's been raising with legitimate hands makes it $125(he's got $60 remaining), s.b. calls(he's got $350 remaining)loose player, B.B. calls(maybe $275 remaining)loose player, original limper drops, I have $1050...
Do you think a call is okay here?
Thanks
no.
NO
nope... this is another one of those situations where u might make the call in a ring game to hit your set... and it might be profitable in the long run... but u just cant risk the irreplacable chips on marginal calls.
peter
I don't think so. The call for $100 is only 10% of your stack which suggests you have the implied odds required, until you consider that no-one else has more than $350 left after the flop. If you hit your set and someone has enough of a hand to call, you simply aren't going to win enough to make it worthwhile for all the times you miss.
Plus with three opponents and one of them pot-committed, you have no chance to win without a showdown.
Andy.
If I calculate correctly there is T425 in the pot. You need to add 100 in the pot.
I think you can call assuming you will fold if you don't flop a set. The fact that you have all 3 other players in the pot covered is a nice situation. If you flop a set you can take 3 out in one hand.
I am not sure if I would limp in with 33 after a limper but if the table is playing with not many raises then that is probably okay.
Ken Poklitar
Is the reason you're not sure you'd limp with 33 after one limper beacause it's so easy to get blown off this weak of a hand? What's about the weakest hand in this situation you'd feel comfortable limping in with?
Unless the table is playing weak without a lot of raises, I don't like limping with very small pairs unless I know there are going to be 4 or more callers.
In the 1st round or two, I might limp with any pair knowing I will fold a small pair to any raise but as the blinds move up my limping will decrease. So normally 77 or 88 might be the normal cutoff because it might win without need to flop a set against 1 limper and the blinds. Late in a tourney I try to come in with a raise and would rarely limp.
Ken Poklitar
Where are you at in the tourney? Are you the chip leader at your table, or have the bigger stacks folded? What is the average stack size? How much longer until you reach the money?
Considering these factors, if you call here it is either marginally correct or marginally wrong, I'm not sure without knowing more about your status in the tourney and the playing styles of the opponents. If there is a good chance you'll get paid off by all 3 of them if you flop a set, then call. If not, then probably fold.
The best thing about this spot is that the original raiser is behind you. If you flop a set, there is a good chance that the blinds check, and then you check also. The raiser goes all-in, but it's only T60 and there is T525 in the pot. The blinds call, and now you can pop it for T150 or so more (or all-in, if there are draws out there and you don't mind making the blinds fold), and extract their money in small increments. You can make sure they're pot-stuck until they're all-in
Either folding or calling preflop isn't terribly wrong.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Early in a limit holdem tourney, when rebuys have not ended and everyone has plenty of chips, I have QQ in the small blind. A solid player limps in early. A gambler raises from late position. I re-raise. Call, call. Flop is A86, two suited. I bet, call, call. Turn is a 9. I check, check, gambler bets, I fold. The other player stayed with him and won with a hand inferior to mine.
Did I do wrong?
Roger
perhaps yoy should have lead again since you werenot raised the first time---but since yoy didn't, I too would have folded figuring one of the 2 other players had the ase. jim
More often then not you are correct to fold. The fact that the original raiser is a "gambler" may make it more likely he does not have an Ace but I would guess one of them does.
Ken Poklitar
a recent tournament hand brought set over set over set over set on the flop (k's, q's, 7's) and the hand itself was not nearly as important as the discussion that followed, although topset did hold up and bust the other two, just like it is supposed to happen for all of us! the question: what is the exact probability of this occuring? this is the answer that i seek. there were several different answers given and of course there is a wager on the outcome! i had only seen this happen a few times, maybe three, in the large number of hold'em hours that i have logged, although i once saw set over to the fourth degree with two aces rivering the winning hand in the largest 20-40 i could ever imagine. isn't poker great when we get to view the improbable to the inconcievable? thanks for the statistical help! J.Brown
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We are playing in a $540 buyin tournament with 87 players. They are paying 9 spots with prize money ranging from $870 for 9th to $17000 for 1st. We are down to 16 players. The blinds are T300 and T600. I am in third position with JJ. I have T2000 when the hand begins. A tight player raises in 1st position. A tough player calls in 2nd position. When the action gets to me the pot is T3300. How would you play pocket JJ's? Why?
I would fold. Surely, you are dominated by one or two hands;also, from early position, you don't know how many more callers you'll have. With pocket jacks, you'd like to play heads-up or at least short-handed. Be patient, you'll survive the blinds and play from late position soon. Now you can tell us what choice you made and the results. Joe
Chico,
This is a clear fold. You'll survive the blinds and still have a few chips left. UTG raises and then NUTG calls? At the very least, you're looking at 2 overcards from each of them. One of these guyz might have a wired pair bigger that JJ. Add to the mix that UTG is tight (red alert) and NUTG is tough (oh s*it), no problems here, I fold.
Maybe if you're in cutoff or sitting on button and only one of these two are in the pot, then that's another situation. Maybe in this position, it's worth deciding to take a stand with your JJ and accumulate some ammo. Otherwise, hit the muck.
Best wishes, Mike
How is your T2000 stack compared to average?
If you went all-in and won T7000, where would your stack be now compared to average?
Ken Poklitar
87 players started with T1500. There are 16 players remaining. An average chip profile would be T8150
i think i would raise and play the hand
my reasoning would be that the caller probably does indeed have 2 overcards (maybe AK)but may have an underpair - i think he probably would have raised with QQ KK or AA
of course, the UTG raiser may have an overpair - in which case i'm all but done for - but he may also very well have AK too
if they've both got AK it puts me in a nice situation to get some chips.......
The initial tight raiser is the problem. If he only raises with AA, KK, QQ or AK from 1st position then it is about a 18/34 53% shot that he has an overpair. If he also raises with AQ then it is about a 18/50 36% that he has an overpair. Now if the tight raiser is also low on chips then he probably will raise with a wider variety of hands.
The second tough player probably does not have AA or KK or he would have re-raised. QQ is a possibility. Two high cards are probable as is a middle pair.
Your chip position of 2000 is quite low. Winning the hand would move you closer to an average chip position.
If I have closer to 5K then it is an easy fold. With the blinds approaching I might take a shot and raise. I think it is pretty close. If you do raise you are hoping for low cards or a set :)
Ken Poklitar
Fold or reraise are the only options I see here. If you call, unless somebody behind you raises the big blind is almost going to have to call for this pot size, and you don't want an extra player with 2 random cards in there to beat you.
Folding is probably the best choice. There is just such a good chance, given your description of the players, that there is an overpair ahead of you.
However, what are the chances that if you raise in the next 2 hands that you will be able to steal the blinds (i.e., win the blinds without seeing the flop)? If the chances are reasonable, then definitely fold. If the blinds are likely to defend (either because they play too loose or you have a short stack), then I might take my stand here. You're mostly hoping that AK and AK are against you, or that you get lucky if they do have an overpair. You definitely do NOT want to fold this hand and the next 2, and then put almost 1/3 of your chips into the blind, as you'll pretty much have to defend that blind no matter what 2 cards you're dealt.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I did fold. The flop came KQ rag. The caller won with AJ no pair. The original raiser did not show. I think OK Kanada hits the ail on the head by asking how many chips did the original raiser have? The main reason I folded was I did not want to reraise in this spot. Calling was not an option as the SB or the BB would surely have called. If I was only facing one player I would have reraised. With this hand I want to play head up or be the first one in.
Let's say you had called or raised...the flpo come KQx...Caller bets into you. What would you have done?
Hi everyone,
Please comment on the following hand.
This is a NL HE tourney. There are 7 players remaining. Pays top 3. T12000 in play (average stack is T1715). I have T325 remaining (don't ask...). Blinds are 50-100 with T5 ante. Blinds are going up shortly. I have red sevens in the cut-off.
On this hand, we have 2 big blinds because we just lost a player in the previous hand.
UTG goes all-in with a very menacing stack of T215. He is a friend. I know he can be doing this with a lot of hands against whom I am in the lead (any ace, any 20 hand, any pair, almost any king). UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, up to me.
If I flat call to see the flop, we are probably going to be 5 handed as I'd expect the blinds to call a good portion of the time.
If I raise all-in, I'd still expect to be 4 handed.
Another option could be to flat call and bet the rest on the flop (or call all-in should anyone bet), but I will be the last to act (unless the button calls), so if I call here, I can't bet out on the flop and "scare" anybody. So this goes towards raising preflop.
On the other hand, I really don't want to get anyone out, because I'd lose a bit of equity if the pot is 4 handed rather than 5 or 6 handed since I will, short of a miracle, need to hit my set to win.
I also hate to call like that, I always rather be the aggressor, so I could fold and still have a bit of firepower to pick up the blinds in the next couple of hands.
My questions are:
1) What would you do? (call, raise, fold) 2) What is my equity here if I decide to play the hand? is it close or not? Do I really want 5-6 players instead of 4?
Thanks in advance,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Nic,
You should be able to find a better spot than this. Fold, as you say wait for an opportunity to be the aggressor, and the other questions become academic :-)
If you do find a hand you want to play here I would probably raise all-in to discourage the blinds and the button from tagging along. Betting the flop with such a small amount left is probably not going to get rid of anyone who has you beat / has a reasonable chance of beating you (unless your opponents are terrible).
Andy.
here goes:
(1) fold
(2) after you play that hand, equity will be "0"
(3) the fewer, the better
all of which remindsme of the old phrase: desparate people do ____things. Jim
In a tourney situation where you are desperately low on chips and others are close to being eliminated, I would prefer to put all my chips in heads-up with an Ace or king than play a multiway pot with a pair. So I would fold.
To know your equity in the pot, you would have to know what everyone else had, right? But in general, your pot equity in a multiway pot holding a small or medium pair is going to be minimal. Essentially your only equity is your chance of hitting a set (small). This is why many experts (the smart ones) don't play small pairs at full tables, particularly in no-limit.
A good strategy here might be to fold your way to the BB and hope one or two opponents go down. Then I would consider raising/calling all-in from the BB with any two related cards or big cards.
My experience has been that small-medium pairs play very, very poorly in everything but heads-up situations. I know others feel differently.
CH
Without the caller, I would reraise all-in and try to isolate UTG. However, with UTG all-in and the caller clearly going to call your raise, I fold. 77 simply doesn't play well enough against 2, maybe 3 opponents.
Be sure to raise all-in as the first one in on one of the next 2 hands, so you have a chance to steal the blinds.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks everyone for the comments.
I did fold. UTG had A2o, another player showed 99 and took it. A 7 rivered but that's irrelevent. Really.
I agree with Greg that, without the caller, I would have raised all-in to isolate.
I did go all-in on second next hand, with A9o, being called by the BB with A6o and getting busted with a 6 on the flop... :-(
I have another question then.
Say I was the button with 3 callers already, then what, still fold?
My point is, I think this was a lot closer than everyone has stated. Like I said, the blinds were going up in a few hands, so, even if I managed to steal the blinds once in the next couple of hands and build my stack to T510, with a BB of T200b (and ante of 10), I'm still in trouble. I am about 5:1 (correct?)to hit my set if I go to the river. I was just about getting that as I really expected both blinds to call. If they do call, there would be (215 * 4 other players) + 35 ante = 895. So, if I flat call, I'm getting 895:215 so 4.2 to 1. With implied odds for the rest of my stack, assuming I get at least 1 caller on the flop, I think this is very close. With another caller, I think this is a clear call.
I agree that I'm going to bust often, but I really need chips here, as just stealing the blinds in the near future is not going to do much. Plus it does not do me any good to hope that 1 or 2 players bust before me, as only the top 3 paid. Even if I succeed to steal the blinds and get to T510, depending on when the blinds do go up, I will either have to put almost half of my stack in the BB on a random hand, or I will only have twice the BB to steal with, almost garanteeing myself a call from the BB.
Comments ?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I agree this was a close one. Sometimes you get into a chip position that is so desperate that you need 2 or 3 good hands (not just steals) to get back in contention. We all know how tough that is to do. So when you get a hand like yours that is a dog to the field, but will win you a good pot it sometimes makes sense to go for it. The fact the blinds are going up soon makes a raise all-in more viable.
That being said, I probably would have mucked this one and would plan to raise all-in before you hit the blinds.
Ken Poklitar
My friend and I played a weekly Limit HE tourney at HP.
This hand came up for discussion and upon reflection i am unsure of my opinion now as to how it was played.
Blinds 50-100 limits 100-200 Friend has @T1000 and is in mid pos. Still about 100 players left in tourney. Early stages after rebuys have ended.
UTG limps, next player limps, next player raises, my friend with pp7 flat calls the raise... folded to BB who calls as do two limpers...
Now my first impression was to muck this hand, or reraise and try to isolate raiser (dont know if i like this idea, but was an option)... however with the rr i felt he could bet any flop NOT containing an A OR as well have the option of betting any A if checked to and possibly get a hand such as JJ to muck...
Now however (i wasnt at the table to see any of this) i am thinking with 2 limpers and one or both of the blinds likely to call, is this such a bad mistake? Should he flop his set, it is likely that my friend would become a chipleader and in good position to make a run at the final table..
I initially felt that given his hand and chip position it was an either fold or raise situation, leaning more toward folding, yet now i am unsure...
Opinions please?
Thanks, Ray ....
I think a raise is a mistake, as it seems too likely that he will still get called by an overpair. It usually takes a big pair to raise after 2 or more have limped, so the original raiser will often be ahead of 77. However, you are right in thinking that by 3-betting, your friend can beat a hand like KK-TT merely by continuing to lead after 1 or more overcards flop (overcards to the raiser, not just to 77).
I would consider this to be a fold or call situation most of the time, leaning towards folding. However, if the pots are still frequently multiway, and your friend has little chance at stealing his way to a safer stack size, then calling here for 20% of his stack and hoping for a big flop can't be much of a mistake, and may easily be the best play.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Here's a hand that sparked a few comments during a Paradise 1-table HE tourney.
We're down to the final 6 players, so the average stack is a little over 1300. Blinds are 100-200, and I have just put 200 of my 750 into the big blind. UTG player raises all-in for 260, 2 fold, and the button completes the raise to 400. However, the button only has 110 left in his stack after making this raise. SB folds, it's up to me.
If I call here, I'm going to bet the flop no matter what, and give the button a chance to fold. Thus, if I don't just fold now, it's going to cost me 310 more, and I will have just 240 in my stack, and we'll likely be 5-handed (for those who don't know, top 3 get paid).
I called with T6o. I bet the flop of 36Q rainbow. Button called. I beat KT held by the button, and JT held by the UTG raiser. I've now become the second chip leader in a 4-handed game. All 3 of my remaining opponents make a comment. The chip leader said words to the effect of "Geez, the cards these people play."
What do you think?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Interesting hand. I probably fold but lets just see.
UTG does not necessarily have any hand since with 260, 200 of it is going into the BB next hand.
Button also does not have to have a hand. He is hoping everyone will fold and he will be battling UTG.
If button only calls the 260 instead of raising, it is an obvious call by you for 60 more. So your mindset is pushing the call button and then he clicks raise. Damn.
So there is 960 in the pot. You need to add 200. You are probably getting the pot odds. With T6o you probably only have about a 1/5 shot to win.
If you fold you have 550, which is enough to get you to the money if you win one decent hand. If you call and bet and lose which will happen 80% of the time, you will be in trouble. If you call and bet and win like you did you will be in contention for 1st.
So the best shot to take 1st/2nd is to do what you did. It is also the best shot to not make the money.
If the blinds are going up in the next hand or 2 I might call, otherwise I probably fold.
Ken Poklitar
I do not know how online tournaments compare to live tournaments in terms of real time. First let me state that I do not look at my cards until it is my turn to act. Nearly all of my decisions are cut and dry. Infrequently I will have to call time. I nearly always fold when I do this as I feel I have shown weakness. I feel I would allow the button to protect the allin bettor. I do not agree with his completion of the raise. I think I would be inclined to just call or to fold. Your call seems like you are toying with this cast. The one advantage you have is the knowledge that you can not get broke here.
I would call and bet the flop for 3 reasons: 1. In the PP tourneys, the pace and limits place a compelling premium on very aggressive play. You have a chance here to knock out two players and put yourself back into a competitive chip count if you hit a flop.
2. If the button hits an absolute air ball on the flop, you have a chance at getting him to fold.
3. It's fun when you win 25% of all the PP tourneys you enter and everyone with an S&M book in their back pocket complains about your play.
Craig H
In general, I find that once you start making these situational plays (and I don't always get them right of course) and sometimes have to turn over some funny cards, two things happen.
1) You get a lot more funny looks and smart comments along the lines described above.
2) You win more money.
It's all I can do not to outright laugh at people sometimes.
Andy.
I think the button should of went all in preflop. Would you call the extra 110$? Maybe not.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
He can't go all-in.
And yes, I still would've called. It would've been 310 more to win 1070, with 500 of that in the side pot against one player.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I think that you realized you had no chance of getting into the money unless you got lucky. You were one of the shorter stacks and had to make a move, so why not get involved in pot that will give you a chance to win.
This is one of those situations where you cannot think about just the pot odds of the current hand. Your main criteria is how likely am I to get into the money if I play this hand now, or wait. I wish I was Sklansky and could do the math, but I bet that if you didn't take a stand soon you would have lost.
Frequently, whenever you have the big blind, and you decide to participate it will be a three way hand the majority of time.
I like your bet on the flop, but your opponent was already committed to the pot. The flop bet would work better against someone with more chips, but usually not the chip leaders.
Don't forget T6 is overcards to any pair below sixes.
Mark wrote: "I like your bet on the flop, but your opponent was already committed to the pot."
Yes, but as you know, they sometimes fold here. If I were the button, I'd call that flop bet with 23o unimproved (of course, I'd never have made the original raise with that hand).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
But, I know if you were first to act, you would raise with 23.
I THINK:
you are up to your old math tricks that are beyond thier ability to understand...so WIN already ;-)
Tiny minds deserve Tiny bankrolls.
Ok, haven't looked at other responses yet.
mmmhh, interesting hand.
The opponents stacks are the key here. I'm sure you would not have called if the button had more than you did.
You say you are betting no matter what. So you are getting 760 to 310 on your call/bet. So about 2:1. You know you are not going to be bluffed out of the pot. On the other hand, you won't get to bluff them either (at least not UTG). But you do need chips to get into a good position to make third place or better.
Where the players who where going to be in the blinds when you would have been on the button/cut off too loose so that a blind steal attempt on your part was less likely to succeed ?
Was the button and UTG the best players on the table ? So, in eliminating them, you were really giving yourself a better stab at the big enchilada (too much McEvoy here...) ?
I'm not sure I would have made this play, if this is the right one I'm sure it's pretty close considering you had T6o. I would like it a lot more if you had 76s. Like you often say, it's probably marginally right or marginally wrong.
Awaiting your comments.
Hope you pissed them off enough to send them in e-tilt.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Ken has it right about the odds, I missed your own BB.
You were getting 960 to 310 so more like 3:1.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Well, I may have tilted the button and UTG, but since they were now broke and eliminated, that doesn't matter. I doubt the remaining players went on tilt, they were just either amused or dumb-founded by my play.
I did go on to win. Unfortunately, I'm still not doing as well as I expect to on these things. My ROI figure is still below 50% at the moment, playing $100 HE and a few $50 HE events.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Just got knocked out of a NL Tourney. Here's my final hand (well almost final hand) that I'd like to get some feedback on.
It's after the break and I have 2100, blinds are 100-200. My stack is a little above average. I get 99 (suits don't matter here) in middle position. Everyone folds to me and I make it 600. Player two to my left makes it 1200. He's got 2000 in chips. He's a pretty good player who plays only strong premium hands. Blinds fold and I call. The flop comes:
10 10 3
I check and he bets 600. I definitely don't put him on a 10. He wouldn't call my raise with A10s. I think for quite a while and then put in my remaining 900 and he calls. Turn and river are rags and he turns over KK. I'm left with 100 chips and get busted out of the tourney shortly after this.
In retrospect, I think I should have released after the flop because the only hands that he would have reraised me preflop with are probably AA, KK, QQ. I'm sure he wouldn't have reraised me with anything less (definitely not with no pair). I guess I should have known better. Given what I've told you, would you guys have folded to the flop bet or do you think you would have committed all your chips like I did?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
I don't think you can just call here preflop, and then decide what to do based upon the flop. You either put this guy on an overpair, or you don't. If you put him on an overpair, fold preflop, and don't lose any more money. If you don't put him on an overpair, then you can play it a couple of ways.
First, any chance he'll fold if you re-reraise all-in? If there is, then do it. If he calls, you're a slight favorite. If he folds, that's even better.
Second, call now, and then bet all-in on any flop unless you think it hit him and he's ahead. In other words, if you don't think he has an overpair, then you probably put him on AK or AQ, with AJ and KQ being much less likely? If that's the case, then any flop without an A or K (maybe Q) you move all-in and shut him out so he can't catch on the turn/river. If he calls, you're ahead. If he folds, again, that's even better. Take what's in there and move on.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
For some reason his raise to 1200 seemed like he wanted you to call him. Maybe its because I know what he had but he was giving you correct odds to call with any raising hand.
Anytime you have a middle pair and you get re-raised before the flop you need to try to put him on a hand. If you put him on an overpair fold now.
I do agree with Greg. Once you call the raise you need to put him on overcards or an underpair. Therefore if overcards do not come, you should go all-in on the flop.
Ken Poklitar
I wish I could definitively put someone on an overpair or overcards in this situation, but I can't. I simply have to weigh the probability of each against the odds I am liable to get. Often this translates more into a "gut feel" than anything else. I might often have to make my decision based on tournament meta-factors if I think it's close on the particular hand.
Andy.
I agree that there is no magic pill to decide if they have overcards or an overpair. Certainly the lower your pair is, the more likely they could have an overpair.
Ken Poklitar
Here's the situation. Blinds are 50-100 and it's No Limit. UTG makes it 200 to go. He is a great tourney player who definitely knows how to play this game. I've been watching him play and he's been stealing blinds from early positions with great effectiveness. No doubt, his reputation is giving him a lot of respect as no one wants to tangle with him. Everyone folds and I have Ad8d on the button. Usually, he likes to make it the standard 3x BB raise. I'm thinking his 2x BB raise is a hint that he wants callers or he doesn't want to committ too many chips to this hand. Unfortunately, I just couldn't get a good read on him. We both have comfortable stacks and I ponder making it 600 to go, but I just decide to call. The blinds fold and the flop comes 9 high and all spades. He bets about 300 and says he has a flush. I don't have a draw or a pair so I fold. He then turns over his cards and shows 6s10s for the flopped flush.
Given the information above, how often would you guys reraise with A8s in this situation preflop? Is my call automatic? Of course after knowing what he hand, a reraise would have probably forced him to muck. Would you guys have played my hand much different?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Well, if you raise, you're going to make it 600 or so, and will win 350. How often will he be playing a hand that he'll fold for the raise? Being first to act, probably not often enough to justify the raise. If I raise him here, I'd rather do it with a hand that isn't likely to be dominated if he just calls. Thus, I'd rather have 98s than A8s. What do you do here when he calls the 600, then checks an A high flop with none of your diamonds? Ai-yah, tough spot.
Calling to flop big is fine, as long as this guy will pay you off often enough to justify the investment of 200.
There is nothing wrong with just folding here. Against a player you can't outplay, that is fine.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Sometimes a smaller raise is that he is hiding a monster hand. Looks like this time he wanted to advertise his cards.
I probably fold the hand pre-flop. I would rather get into a war with two big cards or a pair against an UTG raiser.
With A8s I have no problem playing in a multi-way pot or going for the steal. I would rarely raise with it after an early limper or raiser.
Against someone who is raising more often then seems reasonable, I might re-raise with something weaker then normal but only when I feel he is stealing. I tend to give early raisers some credit for a hand although that is not always the case.
Ken Poklitar
Amarillo Slim v Vincent Oliver(USA)
Asher Derei v Bruno Fitoussi
Live updates on pokernetwork.com, Andy Glazer's reports/live broadcast on ultimatebet.com.
Be sure to read Andy's reports, there've been some amazing hands. Based on what I've read, a no-deal Slim-Derei final would be a sight to behold.
I guess it's a shame, but given all the other goings on concerning poker on the Internet, most of this has disappeared in the noise.
I hate to say I told you so.... but... I told you so :)
Good luck Asher.
Cheers,
Keith
He's gotta 387K-13K lead. Here's the link to the play by play, check out the table they're using. Winner plays Bruno Fitoussi.
http://www.pokernetwork.com/00/tournylive.cfm
Bruno first restole on the turn, then called w/KK when Slim check-raised all in on the flop w/a Q9 flush draw. Bruno had rzd preflop, 20K w/the blinds at 4/8K, starting stacks 400K.
Andy Glazer's reports on this tourney were fascinating, follow the above links. Great photos, as well, and I must agree w/Bruno that this sounds like a great TV event. Congrats to Fitoussi, as Slim won two headsup tourneys back in the day(but not the lone WSOP HU; that were Berry Johnston), is 4 outa 5 at WSOP final tables, and had annihilated everyone else he played in Vienna.
Sounds like a cool event, lets hope there's more of them, and also ones w/PLO & 2-7, along w/NLHE.
Too bad there's not a head's up event at the WSOP.
JohnnyD
Was playing in a weekly no-limit tourney. The re-buy period had just ended and no one had really big stacks though a few were getting short. Blinds were 25-50, and I had about 1500 in the small blind.
4 players called 50 and then it was raised to 200. The button folded and I looked down to see AKo.
What should I do in this situation? More importantly what factors should I consider?
Btw, I raised to 500. My intention was to get rid of the limpers, but I'm inexperienced at No-limit.
The biggest factors are how many chips does the raiser have, what range of hands can you put him on at this point, how is he likely to play those hands postflop (especially how often will he pay you off if you outflop him), and how likely is it that any of the 4 limpers is slowplaying AA or KK?
Given your position, just calling could easily be correct, as could folding.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
wonder what those other four players had? wonder what you are going to do after 9h,10h, Jc comes on the flop--you must act first? wonder how the guy with pr9s in pocket could have called your big raise? eye wonder why you but such a large % of your stack at risk, in such a bad position? A,K is sometimes named "walking back to Houston" because so many players from there went busted playing it----how do I know? that's where i'm from.....Jim
>Given your position, just calling could easily be >correct, as could folding.
So raising was a mistake?
All three options could easily be best, or worst, depending upon the factors I mentioned, as well as other details.
AK is almost always tricky in NL. If it isn't tricky, then it is likely that your stack is small, or your lone opponent has a small stack. Once you're dealing with more than 1 opponent, or deep stacks, AK is usually a tricky hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think it was Doyle Brunson who stated he loves AKo;however, he likes to raise with it not call a raise. It's a drawing hand and I would only call to see the flop, since I'm out of position. Joe
How big was the raisers stack? I can't give an opinion unless I know this.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
I'm thinking that I would call here and take the good pot odds if the other limpers also call. If you miss the flop you will probably be beat and can easily fold.
If you hit a good flop your hand will be more disguised.
The hand could be played in any of the three ways, depending on your knowledge of the other players.
Misha,
I play this hand many different ways. So, you need to consider your opponents and stack sizes for what I'm going to say.
If the blinds are just 25-50 and you have 1500. You are in pretty good shape. The majority of time I will call to see a flop, since I have a good amount of chips left I want to protect my stack. The problem in this situation is that you may have the first limper reraise. If the first limper reraised and I felt that he was a very tight player I would fold and be done with it because I'd then put him on aces or kings.
If you are interested in being the table bully and have a lot of chips you could just move all-in. I do this a lot and quite often everyone folds, especially if the raiser was from a late position, and you'll pick up the pot. Sometime they call and you double up or get busted.
I guess what I'm saying is that if your stack is large, compared to the field you should try to protect it by just calling. If you feel you need more chips and are willing to go broke, you should move-in. Since, you have AK there are less combinations of aces and kings left in the deck. Furthermore, by going all-in and seeing five cards you have a 48.7% chance of hitting one of your cards.
Good Luck
Mark
You really want to play AK heads up if you can, so I think a raise is the best play here. Just after the re-buy period, people will naturally tighten up a bit and you will see a lot more calling (instead of raising) preflop. Because of this, combined with the fact that you are holding AK, the chances of someone limping with Aces or Kings is very very slim in this particular circumstance, so I think you are safe from another raise behind you. I would re-raise, and then plan on betting the flop most of the time no matter what comes. You neutralize the original bettor's positional advantage with this play. It would be very hard to call a preflop reraise and then a bet on the flop without top pair/top kicker... so your chances are good at winning this pot no matter what comes on the flop, assuming everyone folds and the original bettor just calls your preflop raise.
As for the amount, you want to reraise the smallest amount you can that will get everyone else to fold. I think your raise to 500 is pretty much perfect. I would then strongly consider betting 500 on the flop.
Lastly, I would not try a check-raise if I flopped an Ace, King or both. I have found that just betting the hand will get you a skeptical caller with an underpair often enough to warrant straightforward play.
So how'd you do?
CH
I am a newbie at tournament poker and had a few questions.
What is a good percentage of finishing in the money vs. tournaments entered?
Or is there a more effective way to gage your successes/failures in tournament play?
How can I tell if I’m progressing at a decent rate or not?
Any comments appreciated.
I think a percentage is difficult to say. It really depends on how many players, how many prizes and the quality of opponents.
The important thing is not how often do you finish in money but how high do you finish? Most of the money is in the top 3 or 4 spots. Ten bottom money finishes probably make the same or less then one 1st place finish.
The bottom line of course is profit.
Of course as a new tournament player, you may want to track your money finishes, money spent/won compared to the number of players in the tournament. Also keep track by the game.
Ken Poklitar
The percentage question is certainly an interesting one that I'd like to hear some feedback from some of you tourney regulars. I've finished in the money in 6 out of my last 8 tourneys. That sounds great, but I think the question goes a little deeper. Like Ken said, only the top 2 or 3 places really pay any good money. In my money finishes, I had a 1st and 3rd place finish. In the other four, I basically got my buy-in back plus a couple bucks. Good for the ego, but not much financially.
I can probably help shed some light on your questions about failure/success and progession. You must learn from your mistakes and good plays (as well as the play of other players) as you enter more and more tourneys. This will give you more experience when it comes to reading players and determining what to do in specific situations. It's ok to make a mistake, but after I make one, I analyze the hell out of it to make sure that I don't make that same mistake if that situation comes up again in the future. As a result, I think my tourney play improves after each tournament.
Track your progress and you should be finishing higher and higher each time. I can almost always make it to the last two tables (top 25%) and now I'm working on my game to get to the top 5 consistently. All this, and I've only been playing tournaments for about 6 months! Of course, a little luck (combined with good solid play) will always help!
I'm certainly no professional, but I hope some of this input is useful. Good luck!
P.S. If any of my comments seem way off, please flame away! This forum has really helped me improve my tourney and ring games. You guys always provide great feedback!
I'm not sure just % of "in the money" finishes is that good of an indicator. I've got a very high percent at the small tournaments at Fort McDowell, but not that great at the bigger rebuy tournaments at Gila River. When you average it all together with some out of town trips, the number doesn't mean much. Maybe if you only play one size tournament, then the % means more.
What some people do is calculate an ROI (return on investment). Anything over 100% is better than average. I'm not sure what a good number is, but it's at least a way to track your progress.
For someone just getting started it might be more important to write a "tournament summary" after every tournament. If you made the money write down what you did right. Could you have done anything different to finish higher. If you did not make the money, did you play too tight and let your stack get too small, did you make a mistake at a critical time, did you get unlucky and have somebody draw out on you. Writing it down and reviewing it from time to time should help you follow your progress. If you're any good, you'll know if you lost because you didn't play well, or because you got unlucky.
JohnnyD
50% in the money sounds good? like so many other things in poker--it all depends--.for example lets look at the one table trnmnts on paradise, $10,$20,$30,$50 (all the same)so say you play two of the $10 trnmnts--you finish 3rd (in the money) and get $20 but you paid $11 to get in, leaving a $9 gain--then you lose one, an $11 loss...thus your 50% results in a $2 loss??? Therefore the % is not very sinificant, it is the bottom line that counts.....you might finish 1st in a bigger one and receive a very nice payout which would more thn cover your next ten buy ins, etc, lol Jim
Thanks all for the input.
In the long run, the only thing that matters is the bottom line $$$. That's how the game is scored.
In the short term of course, you can be lucky or unlucky and it may be hard to see how you are progressing. Here's what I do. When you get home, write down how many chips you bought and how many you had at suitable stages of the tournament. I use when the rebuy period ends, the start of the final table and at the end. Of course if you don't reach the final table that counts as zero. "The end" actually means what your prize money is worth in chips. So if the buyin gets you 1000 chips for $50 and you win $500, that equates to 10,000 chips (note that if you win the tournament you will have all the chips but only 40% of the money - this is why the less chips you have, the more they are worth each).
Anyway, pretty soon you will be able to average these out and see how your average chip count is progressing at each stage. With my three levels, if I increase my chips by 50% in each level then that is a healthy ROI of more than 150% (which is very good IMO if you can achieve it).
However, note that it really is quite difficult to get a truly accurate assessment from results alone. A statistically significant sample is probably at least six months (depending on how often you play) and maybe more like a year. Especially when you start off, you should be a much better player than you were six months ago (I believe this always applies). Maybe this is the best measure of all. If you can't believe some of the dumb plays you made six months ago, you're probably doing OK :-).
Andy.
Limit HE. A big event at the Commerce. We started with 50 tables and we are down to 5. The top 27 spots make the money. I am UTG with KQs with a slightly below average stack. What is my play?
Bruce
Depends upon your image at the table, the mood of the table, the mood of the big blind, how big the other stacks are at your table, you vigorously the big blind defends his blind, how many bets are in your slightly below average stack, and many other things.
I would fold or raise, almost never call. If I raise, it's probably mostly because I think I can steal the blinds pretty often (i.e., get no callers).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I am currently hitting the money in these tournies about 45% of the time. What I am not doing is winning as often as I should. I am getting significantly more 2nds vs 1sts. Now some of these 2nds are normal since I survive to beat out the 3rds, but many are when I have about an equal stack to 1st at some point headsup.
I am doing better in non-hold-em games for my 1st place finishes.
So I have decided that my headsup play is not what it should be.
1) Raising from BB vs SB. I have been reasonably aggressive in raising from BB and SB. I am wondering if raising from BB makes less sense since I will have no position after the flop. I normally raise with any pair or any high card. I also wonder if it might be better to raise less and attempt to just play better after the flop.
2) Flop play. I aggressively play after the flop when I have hit some part of it. The question is what to do when I hit none of it yet the opponent is still betting. With Ace high does it make sense to continue calling or betting on a missed flop? How big of a pot is too big too fold when on the flop I have nothing? I see others call with nothing and hit on the river.
Any thoughts on this would be helpful,
Ken Poklitar
Hi Ken,
FWIW, I have a similar record to you, over the last 100 tournies, I have finished in the money 42% of the time, however the number of firsts that I have acheived account for 49% of my total money finishes.
I believe that the key to this is not neccesarily your play when you get into the money, but getting very aggressive when you are playing 4 and 5 handed. Frequently raises at this stage (in the $100 tournies at least) will go uncalled and people will typically fold to check raises when they wouldn't in other parts of the tournament, building a stack here helps a great deal when you get down to heads up. - and yes I have busted out 4th and 5th a number of times from decent positions because of this!
Also a side effect of this is that when you do get to a heads up situation, the player that you are playing against respects your raises less even though you (I) have slowed down.
In general I tend to fold a lot more than other players that I have played against heads up - particularly at level 8 where effectively 1 hand will bust you. Often at this stage, you only need 1 or 2 big hands to win the tournament.
It would be very rare for me to call from the SB, for me at this stage it is a raise or fold decison, not the time to get cute with AA and bust yourself when your oppenent flops 2 pair with an unreadable hand. From the BB though I will often just flat call a raise with a monster hand, knowing full well that the raiser will typically bet both the flop and the turn even if he misses, giving me an excellent chance to bust him on the turn.
I find that the flop play more tricky, and it will largely depend on the opponent, I'll tend to check call the flop with top pair or better intending to pop the the turn and bet out with middle pair and sometimes bottom pair depending on the board.
At the end of the day a lot of the results heads up do though come down to luck as the blinds are so high, but I believe that you can make your own luck to a certain extent from the aggressive play that can build a stack from the 4/5 handed position.
Not sure if any of this will help you, but I hope some of it might be of some use!
If the SB on the button limps, I don't raise much from the BB. Like you say, you've got bad position. Plus, this way, when I hit top pair with a big kicker, the opponent often has given me MUCH to much action, very possibly because they don't give me credit for that big of a hand with no preflop raise.
If I'm the SB, I almost never fold. I've got position, and that is important. I raise about 2/3 of the time, and call about 1/3. Actually, I probably do fold about 10% of the time, so let's say 10% fold, 30% call, 60% raise.
I'm not folding the bottom 10%, and raising the top 60% either; at least not exactly. I go by the playability of the hand, it's ability to flop a monster, how it will fare against the type of hands the opponent will call a raise with, etc. I'd rather raise with 34s than Q5o, since 34s is much less likely to be dominated when called. I have no formula, as the hands I select will depend quite a bit upon the opponent and the mood of the game given the last few hands.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
and wonder if you are working on a tourney book..i would buy it...gl...ll lurkers unite..
Playing in weekly NL tourney. It's after the break and I'm getting short stacked. I have 1600 and blinds are 75-150. The button is two to my left and everyone folds to me. I have 88 and make it 500 to go. Next player folds to the button who thinks for a while then calls. He's a good player that sometimes plays a little loose. He has me covered by at least 2-3k. He calls and the blinds fold.
The flop comes K 10 3 rainbow. I bet 500. He thinks for a while and asks if I have AQ. I don't say anything. He eventually calls. The turn comes another 3. This time I check and he bets all-in. I muck and save my remaining 600. I bust out in the next round.
When he called my flop bet, I put him on A10 or J10. I don't think he had a K because he probably wouldn't hesitate to call my flop bet or probably would just put me all-in right there. It's unlikely that he was on a draw, but we can't rule out JQ. Anyways, I'd like some comments on how I played this hand.
1. Did I raise too much preflop (a bit more than 3x BB)? I really didn't mind just taking the blinds with this hand.
2. Was my bet on the flop ok? I have to represent a big pair or AK, right? Maybe it would have been better to push all-in regardless of what flopped?
3. Was checking and folding on the turn correct?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
1) I think 500 is in the ballpark.
2) There is 1225 in the pot. If you believe he has a king you obviously should fold. If you think he has nothing or you can push him off a Ten then you should go all-in.
3) He probably has a Ten but one never knows. As soon as you check you give him the right to bluff all-in with anything.
Ken Poklitar
Jace,
Here's my answers:
1. Since the blinds are 75-150 a raise of at least $450 is expected, but rounding it off to $500 is normal.
2. This depends on the read you have on your opponent. What does he think you have? Do you ever show laydowns? What does he put you on? I think that you bet enough of your stack on the flop. Since, he called your bet he'll usually have something.
3. If you thought you were beat since he called the flop bet, I'd check and fold. He could easily have one of the overcards on the flop, and figures that the three does not help you.
If one overcard falls on the flop in this situation, I'm going to push it a lot of the time. With two broadway overcards I am more inclined to give it up as there is too much chance that I am drawing almost dead. As above, what he will do if he has a Ten is a key factor. Personally if I'm going to fold second pair after calling a pre-flop raise heads up then I shouldn't be calling the raise in the first place (but I would not be calling very often from the button pre-flop in this situation).
Andy.
How much would you have bet on the flop is you held AK? KK? AA? If the answer to all of these is all-in, then your bet of 500 on the flop is a mistake, since he might have read it as weakness and called for just that reason. If you easily could have bet 500 with any of the above, then you did right to check and fold the turn.
If you normally would bet all-in with any of those hands, then you should have bet all-in on the flop. The only alternative to bluffing the flop is to check-and-fold the flop. The 500 bet is a mistake unless that is your normal bet for a made hand in this type of situation.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
My friend and I have been going back and forth on this since we started a home tourney a while back. I let him compose this post. Please settle this for us!
"Is it true that when you drop to 2 players in a tournament that the button always has the small blind? I ask this considering the case when you have:
Player A on button Player B in small blind Player C in big blind
and Player A busts out. Now Player B has the button and the small blind for the 2nd time in a row and Player C has the big blind for the second time in a row. This seems really unfair when the blinds are huge."
Thanks.
KJS
It's not clear whether you are now heads-up or if there are players D and E and so on, but basically the big blind should always move one position and everything else follows from that.
When you get heads up it is more common for the button to be the small blind acting first before the flop. When going from 3 to 2 I suppose the big blind goes to whichever player had it least recently.
Could easily stand corrected on this but that's what I would guess.
Andy.
It will vary from card room to card room, but in general, you should never have to pay a big blind twice in a row. In the example you give, after player A busts out, the button would move to player B and player C would pay the small blind. There would be a "dead big blind" for one hand, and then the blind structure would resume with the big blind and small blind-button system. This would make player C pay two small blinds in a row, which is the least unfair way to make the transition.
CH
Here's the only way I've ever seen this done, so I suspect it's pretty standard. In your hypo, the players are A,B,C, and they are respectively the button, SB, and BB. The rule is once they are heads-up, the SB will always be on the button, and nobody ever has to pay the big blind twice in a row.
If A busts out, C just paid the BB, so B will now be the BB. That means C pays the SB and gets the button. Yes, the button just "skipped" B, but that's the way it goes.
If B busts out, C just paid the BB, so A will now be the BB. That means C pays the SB and gets the button. Usually no complaints about this one.
If C busts out, it is A's turn for the BB next anyway, so A is the BB. B gets the button, but does have to pay the SB on the button, even though B just paid the SB the hand before. This sometimes gets an argument from B, but again this is the way it is done.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
7cs tourney down to 4 players bring in at T500 ,bets are T1500-T3000, ante's at T100. bring in has 3 showing, next folds, I normally and everyone else if in normally raise it to T1500 to try and steal. I have a king up and a KQ suited under. I just call the T500 to try and string the bring-in along and put him out other player folds. low card has T9k and other 2 players have about T16k each I have T18k. I wouldn't be posting if it turned out the way I wanted but wonder if I did the right thing or should have been happy with the possible T900 if he folded? payoffs were, $888-$666-$333-$222
In this kind of spot where everyone is making steal raises, I think it's very important to raise when you find a real hand as well. Flat calling is going to look suspicious to an observant opponent. If someone decides you're stealing and plays back at you then you have a great chance to double through. Mind you, this is stud, so you can get outdrawn easily, but them's the breaks.
Andy.
I agree with Andy.
It's always fun to see a player who has been raising at every chance he gets and them suddenly he flat calls, WTF?
Alarm bells goes off and I'm almost lifted a feet in my chair.
When the pot is big, you should always try to win it now. Sure, it might be nice to trap an opponent for an extra bet or 2 but when that opponent goes on to outdraw you, well, that's all your fault. Like Andy said, the most obvious play is to raise. Raise and cross your fingers they put you on a steal and pop you back.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
It looks unnatural to just call when everyone expects you to raise. They will (or should) be at least considering the possibility that you're rolled-up.
This is what happened to me in the stud tourney at Foxwood's New England Poker Classic last April. We're down to 5 or 6 players at the final table. I'm the chip leader, and have been raising on 3rd street quite often (they've mostly been letting me). Bring-in, a couple of folds, and now it's on me. I have the highest card showing, a T. Everyone expects me to raise (or maybe fold, as I would if I had real crap cards in the hole). I am rolled-up TTT. I raise, knowing that anything else looks so suspicious that they'd put me on AA in the hole at a minimum. Fortunately, the 1 guy left between me and the bring-in calls with (67)7, and he catches a 6 on 4th street for two-pair. He is now tied in to the end, and calls all-in even when I pair my doorcard on 6th street for quads. He figures he might be down to 4 outs, but almost all his chips were already in the pot.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
$100 HE tourney, down to 4 of us and the limits are 400-800, it is the third or fourth hand (of ten) at these limits - for those that don't know in these tourneys, top three get paid, 3rd $200, 2nd $300, 1st $500.
UTG and Button both have over 3000 chips, SB has 335 before posting and I have 865 before posting.
SB posts 200 and I post 400, cards are dealt, UTG passes and the button raises to 800, SB calls all-in for his last 135, I have K4o - what is your play here?
I think for a while and end up raising all-in (essentially the same as calling, as it is only 65 more chips). The raise from the Button could well be a steal raise with marginal cards, and I think that the SB has to call with virtually any 2 cards. Do you disagree with this analysis?
My thinking here was that if the SB won the hand without me in it, he would treble through (including the share of my BB) to 1005, leaving me on 465 and having to put up the 200 SB next hand, in all likelyhood to end up being taken out by one of the large stacks for fourth place.
For me the main purpose of playing here is not neccesarily winning the hand (although this would put me on 2065 and looking a lot healthier, or 1060 for just the side pot), but to decrease the chances of the SB winning the hand, as if either I or the button win I end up with at least third place (as I started with more chips than the SB).
Do you disagree with my all-in raise/call? If the SB folds, would you fold - I think that I would as he would be left on 135 chips.
Results for those interested, although I don't think in themselves they are that important: I caught a 4 but no more help, button turned over QQ for the side pot and the SB won the main pot with 55 having spiked a 5 for the set.
Your play is correct. The only way you really lose here is when the SB beats both you and the button, AND you also lose to the button.
There are 6 possible orders of finish (ignoring ties), and only one of them is really bad for you. Admittedly your K4o isn't much of a hand, so your losing to the button isn't unexpected, yet I still think you played it right.
Well done.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Assuming you were to call....which I dont think you should....you should call...and leave the $65. Even if the flop misses you completely and you fold, the SB my lose and U get 3rd. If you dont call you have 465, and if the SB loses you get 3rd. So calling or not calling arent very different in relation to getting 3rd, but if you want to get past 3rd, K4o aint worth playing.
Not smart raise you should just call and see the flop
Thats what i think if you dont get something on the flop than fold..
In prepping for a tourney I am reading and rereading the chapter on pot-limit and no-limit hold'em in Ciaffone's Pot-Limit and No-Limit Poker and all of the hold'em chapters in McEvoy's Tournament Poker. Comments?
Jon I.
I think that is fine. You should also think back to previous tournies and review your mistakes. Were you too tight or too loose or why did you lose? Don't forget to steal when given the opportunity.
Ken Poklitar
I gather you have not played much P/L or N/L...have read both of them myself...good books. best advise I could offer now would be not to FEAR this betting structure, yes it is different in various ways, but good hands are the same...just don't be chasing with a small or medium pair like you might do in a limit ring game (correctly, because pot odds are there) but not now. And,yes, you will need to steal some, that's more important here too. good luck Jim
Poker Spot 1/2 Omaha 8 PL/HE NL $15 buy-in game last night.......
Down to 5 players....I am second smallest stack @T4000 after posting the BB. Smallest(T2000)stack is 2 away from BB. Blinds are 250/500. Bet is folded around to Big Stack (T12000+)at table. He raises T500. All fold to me. I have not played against the Big Stack during this tournament. He appears to be very solid from the little I've seen of him here at the final table. He's using his stack well....stealing at appropriate times, and generally taking pots down without a showdown.
What is your move in this situation and why?
I will post results later.
.
Sorry Gene,
Posted hand in title, but not body!!
Hand was pp8!!
I dont know your hand but...I should fold and hoping that the smallest stack blinding out ore losing his stack. From my own experince the pokerspot tournaments are pretty WILD and you can play tight and see the other players get out before. just play AA,KK,QQ,AKs
What I mean is you should now you in the money and then you can start stealing the BLINDS...etc.
Nicolas you RIGHT about your post ...they only pay 5 for a bigger amount and than you should fold.
See my post I thought about the same
5 handed, his raise can be with almost with anything.
The only thing that I wonder is the size of his raise. It is small for NL. If this is his standard raise then I probably raise all-in. 88 is more than likely good at this point.
Now if normally raises 2x or 3x the BB then I might just call and see if I flop a set. He might be trapping with a big pair.
Ken Poklitar
Gene & Ken,
TY both for your response. As I had said earlier, I had really not seen his play all that much, but my best judgement at the time was that this was pretty much his standard pre-flop rr/steal amount (from what I had seen, anyway)
It appears that all 3 of us see it pretty much the same way. Here's how it played out...........
I read it as a steal and did rr allin (which I thought was the correct move w/pp8's). Neither he nor I improved and he showed down ppK's to take it down, & I go out 5th. In hindsight, I believe I was clearly trapped.
Is there anything that I missed, in your opinions? Did I take all information into account and act "properly" or is there something that I might have overlooked?
Thanks Much
the "...goose"
If his previous steals were raising the minimum then I think you were correct in going all-in. It's too bad this time he had a real hand.
Knowing the player and how he raises is important.
Ken Poklitar
If he was consistantly open raising for the minimum then you were intentionally (but you didn't know it) then unavoidingly trapped. The only thing you may have overlooked (and so did I) was the point brought up in Nicolas Fradet's (The Prince) response listed below.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
OK 88, right. I know online you only have so many seconds to act so here's one thing to consider. The blinds are at 250-500 and you said he "raised" T500. That means he brought it in for T1000 which is the minimum you can raise unless you go all-in for less. Compare that with what he's been bringing it in for when you say he's been "using his stack well...stealing at appropriate times and generally taking pots down without a a showdown". If he has been consistantly raising more than the minimum and now just raises the minimum then I would wait for a better hand or better situation. You still have T4000 and plenty of time. Now OTOH if he's been stealing consistantly by bringing it in for the minimum I would go all-in with my 8-8. He will have a dificult time calling T4000 with just 2 big cards or anything less than 10-10 or JJ. T4000 is a big chunk of change even to his big stack.
Yes you could just call the T500 and take your chances to get lucky and flop a set or fold. Because you will most like have to do that if the flop brings any overcards to your eights at all. Because he will not give up if he flops a big pair. But IMO NL is about making strong moves when you think you are leading and putting your opponent to a decision.
Just my opinion. I'll look later for the results.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
One thing noone addressed.
The payout.
As far as I can remember, Pokerspot's payout are pretty shaky (like other stuff), IMO. They pay the top 20 places when there are 60 players. The "big" money is really in the top 3. If I recall the payouts are 30,20,10 and 5 and then less for 5th place. So, basically, even tho you are "in the money" if you make it to the top 20, you only get a refund on your initial buy-in because there aren't enough players to get a nice pay day even if you end up 5th. IMO, paying a third of the players involved is ridiculous.
So, that said, what you really want to do is finish 4th or better. So, in your situation, I would have folded. I would have hoped the smaller stack busted out before me or even better I would have attacked his BB myself because you would then be the button when he gets the BB. T4000 is a below average stack but still plenty to survive a couple of rounds. He will need to move before you do.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Good point, Nicolas....
It was a real money $15 buy-in tournament, so the payout was better. I received $42 for 5th. 4th was $63. Not exactly sure of 2nd or 3rd. 1st was $263.
My "normal" inclination in this spot is to fold, essentially reflecting your philosophy above. As an explanation (not a defense), the decision that I made was based on my attempt to win the tournament. I saw an opportunity to double up and take a chunk out of the big stack. Had that been succesful, I would have been in much better position to make a serious run at 1st place.
What do you think?
First tell me if I got it right:
SHOE: Stud high-Hold'em-Omaha High-Stud8
HORSE: Hold'em-Omaha high-Razz-Stud high-Stud8.
How does it work?
Is it one round of Stud, then one round or HE, then 1 of Omaha, then 1 of Stud8 ? Or 1/2 hour of stud (limit increase), then 1/2 hour HE (limit increase)etc...
Also, do you ante at stud, then blind at HE and O and then back to ante at stud8 ? I'm guessing the limits don't change tho. Right?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Normally the Omaha is hi/low.
I've never played a SHOE/HORSE tourney but I presume the limits increase when the game changes.
I've played HOE at Foxwoods and during the stud eights or better we anted. During the other games we used the standard blinds. During stud eights the button would stay where it was last left.
Ken Poklitar
Down to 14 players in my local NL tourney.
Blinds are 500-1000. I am in BB with JJ with 11k. There is one limper who only has another 2k. The small blind who has about 13k calls the extra 500.
How many players would raise in this position?
If the limper has any chips then I probably raise to make it headsup or to take the chips with no battle. But it is very unlikely the limper will fold.
As it turns out I checked. The flop has an Ace. SB bets. I fold and the limper calls. Both opponents had an Ace.
Ken Poklitar
Good check JJ isnt that good .....think you did a good check and if the flop was without any Ace than you could bet ..
I think I would raise in this spot but it depends on the SB player. Is he likely to call a raise from you? If he is, then I would just call, if not, I would raise to get it head's up with the limper. The limper almost definetly doesn't have a higher pair, and also if very unlikely to have two overcards, except for the possibility of KQ. He probably has Ax, so your raise to get the small blind out would be a good one, so that you could get it heads up with the limper as a very good favorite.
Peace
Goodie
I agree with Goodie.
The key is how the SB will react to your raise. You are going to put the limper all-in here. Is he capable of coming over the top to get YOU out?
Also, how likely is it that the limper is slowplaying a hand here? He only has 2K left, he is either slowplaying or not good enough to see he is almost commited to the hand, because if he was a good player, he would have raised all-in (or folded). Or he wants to see the flop and is prepared to release to a raise.
I think I would check here. I would like to see the flop, hope there are no overcards, that the SB checks and then make my move.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
The limper was not a very good player. He had AJ. There is not a chance in the world I would limp with AJ or any other hand I would want to play when I am down to 3000 with the blinds being 500-1k.
If I raise to 5k, the limper is coming in. Now the SB might decide to call as well so that is why I chose not to raise. The SB had A4.
My plan was to make a nice size bet on the flop assuming no overcards.
Ken Poklitar
That's exactly what I would have done.
Well played.
So, what your saying is, that you had them both to exactly 2 outs between them and you don't think this is a good spot to raise in?
These are exactly the types of hands that I would have put both of them on, so why not raise now while thier still drawing to beat you. How can this be wrong? Your getting your money in with way the best of it. The limper is definetly coming if you raise, but he is very unlikely to have AA, KK, QQ, AK, or AQ, so you probably dominate him, and the SB can't call without a big hand that I'm sure he doesn't have since he would've raised himself. What if the SB had something like Q10 or K10, why give him a free chance at spiking a Q or K to beat you?
The more I think about this hand, the more I think raising is correct.
Peace
Goodie
The problem is that you don't know they both have aces in their hands and that they are drawing to 2 outs.
If the limper had AJ here and did not raise, he could have KQ maybe AQ. The point is you probably do have a better hand than the limper, IF he is not slowplaying.
The problem here is the SB. The SB can break you, that's the key. Without him, you definitly want to raise all-in preflop. What I said and that Ken has confirmed is that if the SB will call you whether you raise or not, then why not see the flop and use your position over him to your advantage if you flop well.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
What Ken said is that the SB "might" decide to call as well. The key IS that the SB can bust Ken, this is exactly why he should raise. Get him out now before he can catch or before he can bluff you off your hand. What if the flop came 235 or 448 or something freaky. Ken wouldn've been regretting not getting the SB out before the flop.
There was no reason to believe that the limper had Ken beat. It doesn't matter if he was slow playing AA, KK, QQ, because if the flop is rags, then Ken's gonna put the limper in anyways. Considering that the only hand that would be a coin flip that the limper realistically has would be KQ, there is a good enough chance that Ken dominates him to raise to drive the SB out.
Also, if the SB is likely to call the raise with a hand that is a huge underdog to Ken's, then the raise has merit even if it is called. This seems to be the case, because It would stand to reason that the SB would raise any hand that Ken does not dominate, so that HE could get it heads up with the limper, again with the exception of KQ. It is almost a cinch that Ken is a huge favorite over the SB.
It makes absolutly no sense to let the small blind catch for free. If he calls the raise and catches to beat Ken, so be it, but to let him in for half a small bet is just bad poker. Premium pairs don't come along that often at key points in tournaments, and you must get the most out of them.
Peace
Goodie
You got it Goodie!
Raise all in, isolate the limper and blow the small blind off his hand (which i would have put on a weak ace or medium connected/suited cards.
Even though the result would have been a loss it was still the correct play. You are ahead before the flop and thats the time to get the money in.
If I thought the SB would most likely call my T4000 raise, then I'd probably check, like I said.
I would never raise all-in here. Raising more than 3x the pot never makes much sense, IMO. You will only get called if you are a small favorite (AK-AQ)or a big underdog (QQ-KK-AA). No saine player would call you with less so why do it?
If you are going to raise, raise to T4-5000.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I would probably just raise the standard amount against most opponents but there is an argument for raising all in against certain opponents. If the SB was the type of player that would call a standard raise with a hand that had a reasonable chance to beat you, namely KQ or even Ax, then raising all in would be correct so that you would blow him completly off his hand.
Of course no sane player would call with less than AA, KK, QQ, or AK, AQ, and this is exactly why you would possibly raise all in here. To blow him off a lesser hand.
Peace
Goodie
I think raising to 5000 probably is a slightly better play then checking. I agree with Nicolas that raising all-in does not make much sense. Raising to 5000 forces the SB to call a 4000 raise which gives me a better idea what he has if he calls the raise.
Ken Poklitar
I pretty much agree with Goodie on this one. I would raise.
Firstly, we don't need to be told that the limper isn't a player - he isn't :-). There is no reason to limp for 1/3 of your stack in this spot, that is, as we say in England, pants. As such it is hard to put him on a hand and there is no reason to necessarily fear two overcards never mind an overpair.
The small blind has put 500 more in, probably in the hope of seeing a cheap flop. Most likely you have him beaten as well. So he can bust you - so what ? You can double through him. You don't say how many chips are in play at the moment but I would guess that you are short of having enough to shy away from confrontations with other large stacks.
Bet 3-4000 and if the SB calls or raises, you'll just have to play some poker based on your knowledge of him.
Andy.
We are down to 8 players. 5th and 6th gets money back.
I have 12k. There are 3 or 4 players with similar stacks. Blinds are 2k-3k. I have the button.
UTG goes all-in with about 30k. He is a wildly aggressive player who could have anything including any pair or any 20 hand.
UTG+1 calls. He has more then 30k. He has been known to call big raises with connectors.
Everyone folds to me. I look down and see AKs. As I am deciding what to do, the two players in question are assuming everyone folds and are discussing the fact that they both have pairs.
So if I call, I could get up to 41k. If I fold I can wait for a better headsup opportunity.
I folded and the blinds folded.
As it turns out UTG has 22. UTG+1 had 77 and flopped a set. I would have flopped a flush draw that wouldn't have come.
So the question is call or fold knowing they both have pairs?
If one of them said they didn't have a pair does it change my decision?
Ken Poklitar
AKs on the button is a powerful hand, but, it's still a drawing hand! At this stage of the tourney, even if the UTG is a maniac, you must seriously consider his UTG raise. When UTG+1 calls the allin raise, I think you've got an easy decision, especially if you're sure that they both have pp's. As only 6 get the $$, the outcome of this hand will be that either one player (UTG) is out, and you're now one away from the $$, or UTG+1 is seriously crippled, putting you that much closer. As there are 3 or 4 other players with stack sizes similar to yours, you are not at a disadvantage. You have just passed the blinds, and will have an opportunity to find another hand or steal. If it's me, in the muck they go!!
Interesting hand.
Off the bat, I you expect the blinds to fold, you are getting 2.4 to 1 on your call (29k-12k). A quick sim gave the following results:
22 - 18% 77 - 42% AKs - 40%
So, you will win 40% (1.5-1) of the time which is plenty to justify a call just on that. However, the big problem is when one of them has AA or KK (then you drop to 30% against KK and 13% against AA). I am really stunned the caller did not have a bigger pair, he is calling one of the bigger stack.
Also to consider, the payout. You essentially want to finish 4th or better to make it worth it. So you need chips and this is a good opportunity. Can you outplay the opposition later if you fold?
I think, if your read is that neither of them (and I agree it can be hard to tell, especially from the caller) has AA or KK, that you have a call.
IF you feel a AA or KK, then fold.
If one of them does not have a pair then he could have one or 2 of your outs, then I would fold.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
FOLD!
If you feel at least one of them does have a smaller pair than AA or KK you are already a small dog (11-10?). It just about comes down to luck there. The caller solidifies the decision to muck in my opinion. With AK you already have to outdraw one hand.....that close to the money theres no reason to get involved.
I would fold.
At least one of them has a pair..that's a guarantee! You are drawing and you don't want to draw against 2 opponents when you are so close to the money with a decent chip stack. If you are short stacked..then of course you must call.
I disagree with Nicolas. Sure you have pot odds and drawing odds, but at this point your goal is to get in the money and then get as high into the money as you can. Don't tangle with other confrontations.
Lawrence Ng (a fellow Canadian!)
The subject is addressed at a couple of the responders above, not Ken, but this is a good spot to treble up. If you know they both have underpairs then go for it. You do not have a big stack at this point and you need to win some chips to get in the race for first place.
This would be a tough-ish spot against good players but then again, anyone who shoves 30K all-in with 2-3K blinds is not a good player. Unless you have a reasonable read that someone has AA or KK, go for it. You're playing to get your money back ? Why did you bother turning up ??
Last question, where is this game ? I want in !!
Andy.
FOLD. Why risk elimonation now? Two other factors not mentioned (1) they have 4 cards to make a set, you have 6 cards to make a pair. (2) if you do call, that might induce a call from someone else who has a pair--if so, that 6 vs 6 !! Jim
That's the fourth post in this thread that considers the risk while completely ignoring the reward. Risk AND Reward boys, risk AND reward.
Andy.
That's it!
The point is ladies and gentlemen, what is your goal ?
If your goal is to make the money and get your buy-in back, then fold. If you want to win it all or give yourself a good opportunity to finish in the BIG money then you call(if you don't put him on KK or AA).
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Now you say this is a tough spot against good players. In a way I find it a tougher decision against bad players. Against good players the 40% shot certainly makes sense to triple up. Against bad or average players it is not quite as clear that one should take that risk.
"You're playing to get your money back ? Why did you bother turning up ?? "
Actually although my stack was smallish I felt I still had a chance. I will be honest and say that I find myself more passive then I should when we are on the bubble of the money. I do need to watch for this. I probably should have taken the 40% chance to triple up.
"Last question, where is this game ? I want in "
Hey, I don't want any good players to share the money with! It is actually a good tournament. Everyone starts with T5000, no rebuys and blinds start at 25-50.
Ken "Don't be a wimp when it gets one of the money" Poklitar
"You're playing to get your money back ? Why did you bother turning up ?? " - this was really addressed to a couple of responders rather than the original post.
On reflection I think my main problem with some of the responses is that they didn't even consider the potential reward of trebling up. If, as Ken suggests, you don't think this is worth the 60% risk of being eliminated, on balance, then that's fair enough. But just sitting on your chips trying to inch into the money is weak, weak play and will be ruthlessly exploited by aware or even just naturally aggressive players.
Andy.
This is a really good scenario. Based upon your post alone, I cannot say whether I would fold or call. I think that this is a very close decision, and that the correct play will depend upon the exact chip counts of all the players, and the likelihood that you can move up to 4th or better pretty quickly by just sitting on your stack (or, conversely, the likelihood that you can increase your stack by aggressive stealing; but it doesn't appear that you're very likely to get away with a lot of stealing at this table).
If I thought I could move up to 4th or better doing nothing but spectating, I probably would do so, and tend towards folding here. If I'm going to have to win/steal some pots, and the stealing won't be easy, then I would tend to call here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Pot limit HE tournament 25 or so players left top 10 paid. - level blinds at T400 all fold to the blinds SB(T5000) BB (T1200)Ad3d.Both check to see the flop Ac8h5d. BB checks SB bets T800.The BB is a generally solid player but could be tempted into some easy money from stealing the blinds
Action with SB any suggestions?
I'm not sure here the BB checks BEFORE the SB acts on the flop?
Can you clarify?
I _think_ the first blind is probably on the button. This is common in the UK with level blinds (although I never understand why the button is a blind).
We still need some clarification though Ross, as your question is stated, you're asking what SB should do ? But he's already bet ??
Personally I can't understand why BB checks pre-flop heads-up with A3s and only 3 blinds left. What's he waiting for, Aces ?
Andy.
right, but when the button is a blind aren't there 3 blinds?
1 on the button and the other 2 in their regular spots? or is it sometimes 1 on the button and the other one in the SB position?
I too never understood why they make the button a blind, it should always be the player to the left of the second blind.
Clarification, level blinds on the button T1500 1st to act on the flop. sorry guys bad night head was a mess !!
ross
Limit Hold'em daily tournament w/20 minute rounds, full table for both questions:
(1) About 3 or 4 tables remaining, blinds are $300 & $500, two players limp, you're in the small blind with 2-4 offsuit and have $4000(which is a little under the average stack size). There is little chance the big blind will raise, would you call here with ANY two cards for $200 more?
(2) A little earlier in the tourney, blinds are $100 & $200, you are 4 before the button with pocket 3's, you've got(approx)an average stack of about $3600, the three players behind you(up to & including the button)are playing a little scared, but the small & big blinds will both eagerly call a raise with 9-4 suited, it's passed to you, would you open-raise or fold?
Thanks
2 quick answers...
1)When the SB is more than half the BB, I will call with pretty much all hands (including 24o), especially since you have T4000 in front of you.
2)If you don't figure to get the blinds often enough, and since you think both blinds are likely to call, you should fold.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
ok, this is the wednesday night $10/$5 no-limit holdem tournament at the bicycle casino. ive played a couple of times before, and i took 7th place the first time i played. my question here applies to this hand: blinds are 25-50 i have a good size stack compared to my table, have been playing rather tight, and quite aggressive thus far, and i have the chip lead. (started with 200, average stack - due to rebuys- is about 500, i have 1700) i have KJ suited with 1 limper who limps a lot but will throw it away usually if he runs into a big raise, and 2 hands behind me, one of which the player is not in his seat, leaving the button to act behind me. i raise 200 more, button calls, limper drops. flop comes KJ5 rainbow. i bet 300 and he calls. turn is 2 (board is still rainbow.) i bet 600 and he still calls. river is A. i go all in for my last 550 and he calls with AJ. he tells me he would have called me even if i went all in on the flop. any thoughts on this?
Baggins,
Yeah... that's what everyone says after they suck out on you (in this case, hit his kicker).
Preflop, not a bad raise (4x BB), small % of your stack and can get away if the flop doesn't hit you. With this flop, I probably push all in and make your button opponent make the tough decision to call you with middle pair, best kicker. You bet $300 into a $525 pot and gave him better odds than he should to take a card off. If he was drawing here, I think you have to blow him off his draw. If you have KK or JJ and flop that then $300 bet is correct to trap. Otherwise, IMO $300 is too small a bet.
At this point in the tournament, IMO, I think it's more important to accumulate some ammo rather than take someone out. I know that a lot of people might disagree with this position; however, how you play later in the tournament is largely dictated by your stack size. Any point where you can pick up some chips is a worthwhile move to me. Even if you fail to put someone out, the thoughts of what you might have had or "stolen" with begins to weigh on them. Later on, you'll get the right situation where you can put them in with a marginal hand for minimal risk to your stack.
Bad luck Baggins, he hit the 3 outer on you. It happens to all. My opinion would be to put him in after that nice flop and let him make the decision.
Best wishes on your next tourney. Mike
thanks for the comments. my no-limit play is very very unexperienced. other than a couple of tournaments and home game structures i haven't really played no limit. i don't really have the feel for the bet sizes yet and how to analyze them and employ them most effectively. i guess i wanted a call for a couple more chips in that hand which is why i didn't move all in. (does that make sense? i wanted more chips in the pot so i raised less than the maximum? i think so, i really thought he would fold for an all-in bet.) if the ace didn't come on the river, i may have moved all-in. i guess my questions here are sort of the following: 1. how vulnerable is my hand? what can i put my opponent on reasonably, and how do i determine how vulnerable my hand is? (i know all about outs, and how the game works, but im talking more theoretical math here.) 2. do i want a call? did i get beat bad enough that im glad my opponent paid to see another card even if he hit his 3outer? 3. did i actually save myself money by NOT going all-in? my opponent said that he would have called if i had. (how credible is that admission? who knows? i've played against this guy before though, and he is usually pretty honest with me about things like that.) 4. should i not have played this hand? is KJ suited too loose of a hand to play with? i personally think i made the right moves going into the hand (a late position raise substantial enough to get it heads up and trap some dead chips). my first tournament i played, i actually played some interesting hand choices. big pairs (TT or better) and any ace... i raised substantially more with the 'any-ace' hands, and most of the bad ace hands i took down without a flop. i moved all in once with A6, got called after much deliberation by KK and when we turned them over, he sighed some relief. not so good for him though, board came 667 7 9) i think that because i threw away a lot of decent K hands and suited connectors and thus played a lot less hands, my opponents thought i was tighter than i was, kinda... 5. in tournament play, can you give pot odds considerations the same weight as hand strength and your ability to read your opponent? i mean, a good majority of no-limit tournament hands are heads up by the end of the flop round of betting, and usually you are not getting pot odds to draw to much. should we put more emphasis on implied odds? e.g. there are some chips in the pot, it is now heads up, and i put my opponent on AK offsuit, which matches the flop with top pair top kicker, but i have KQsuited and have now flopped AJ3, with 2 of my suit. i now have the nut flush draw, plus a nut-inside-straight draw, plus a nut-straightflush draw. (AJ are in the same suit as my KQ). i may not be getting the proper odds to call my opponent here, but if i hit any one of my 12 outs i could bust my opponent, (that doesn't include the possibility of Q Q runner-runner, which is small)
well, as you can tell, i put a lot of thought into my play, but i am still learning, and i welcome advice from whoever has it to offer. if you made it this far thanks for reading.
baggins
Baggins,
Thanx for the return post. Hopefully, I've got some answers for you that will give some correct advice. I, too, am still fairly new at the NL game, but my tourney record indicates to me that I'm on the right track.
1) Even though you flopped top two pair with no flush draw present, your hand is still vulnerable. You can essentially rule out at this point that your opponent has you beat. If he had KK or JJ, you'd probably see him make a reraise preflop. I don't think your opponent would play pocket 5s after your preflop raise. Could he have KJ? Possibly... but not likely. The big problem is he could be on a draw (open ended or gutshot) and/or pick up a backdoor flush draw on the turn if the flop bet is too little. Here I think you push in your stack, because he has to commit equal money to win yours + T525 (less than 2:1 odds). He could have one pair, decent kicker (as he did). You need to bet in order to swing the odds so that it's wrong mathematically for him to call.
2) Even with top two pair, IMO you don't want a call here. You want to pick up his chips with minimal risk to you at this point in the tournament. As I said in my previous post, the size of your stack later will dictate how you play. Short stacks will have to be more aggressive/marginal with their hand selection because the blinds and antes eventually will eat them alive.
3) Did you save money by not going all-in? Yes... but at what cost? At this point you are essentially crippled. To get back in this tournament, you'll need some good cards and a large dose of short-term luck. People at your table will see what just happened to you and probably surmise that you'll be on tilt. They'll be looking to take you out at the first opportunity and they'll be correct to do so. However, this is just my opinion. Your goals in a tournament may be a lot different from mine. You need to ask yourself what you want to accomplish... make the money? finish in the top 3? win? Mine is to make the best possible decisions given the situation and win(of course). And remember, you paid X$ to play in this tournament, don't let someone else tell you how to play your game.
4) I think that you made the correct choices preflop given your decision to play this hand. I think the raise was adequate at 4xBB. You made a read and acted on it accordingly.
5) Pot odds do get considerations because you want to bet in a manner as to manipulate these odds to make your opponent's expectation negative. Given your example, with the super-strong draw that you have... you can probably blow your opponent off his hand with a large reraise or an all-in move (given you have the chips to do this). Say for example after his raise that he has T10,000 left, you've got maybe T40,000. I think if you move in here that you'll get him off the best hand. Even though he has top pair/best kicker, he knows he's vulnerable. He might not want to commit to this type of hand. If he calls, you've got at least 13 outs with 2 cards to come. Hands like this will decide your fate in the tournament. Give yourself the best opportunity to win if you are called.
Incidentally, it won't get much better than that unless you got at least a pair to go with the sf draw. Sometimes, the right cards don't come and that's life. I go home thinking that I gave myself the best chance to win. At the end of the day, that's all you can ask of yourself.
I hope my return post helps. Good luck in the future. Mike
I agree and disagree wtih Mike.
Mike is totally right that you underbet the flop. Mike is totally right that your real concern here is to gather chips, not bust him. Anyone who thinks they should bust an opponent any chance they get does not understand tournament play.
I disagree that you should go all-in on the flop. You flopped a great hand, top 2 pair on a rainbow flop, you want to extract the most chips you can. You really don't want to slowplay since draws could be out there. The pot has T625 in it (250+250+25+50+50). I would have bet T500. Going all-in with T1450 when the pot has only T625 in it does not make any sense to me. Plus you do want him to call you if he has AJ, he's taking the worst of it, right?
On the turn, there is now T1225 in the pot, now is the time to go all-in this is where you made your biggest mistake, IMO. I would have checked on the river (although I agree your opponent would have probably bet and the result would have been the same). A plausible draw QT got there, plus there is the possibility on a second pair. Aces on the turn or river are the most likely cards to make second pairs.
Bottom line is that you should bet more than half the pot. He got lucky and sucked out.
Hope this helps,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
With KJs and one limper I probably either limp or fold preflop. Although with your read of the limper the raise is not terrible. The problem of course is if someone calls your raise and you only flop one pair you may be in trouble.
On the flop your bet might be a bit small but it is close. I would bet the pot.
On the turn I would go all-in. There is enough money in the pot to take it down now.
In general you were unlucky on the hand. Be careful with KJ, QJ and other dominated hands.
Ken Pokliktar
great responses. thank you everyone for your thoughts. i believe from reading your posts and thinking it over that i should have gone all-in on the turn. however, results are more important in a tournament than in a ring game. in a ring game, if i make the mathematically correct move, and my opponent takes the worst of it and still sucks out on me, i still have chips left, plus i can buy in again, and my opponent is going to still be making mistakes which i will be able to take advantage of. in a tournament however, if the same thing happens, you lose, and since in this particular case there were no more rebuys, i was out. my opponent told me that he would have called my all-in bet at any point. that sucks. we learn so much about making your opponent make mistakes, and wanting to be called when we bet with the best hand, and wanting a fold when we bluff. but so many times i wish that my opponents had made the right play, because then they would not suck out on me. i firmly believe that at least half the time that people are drawing out, the case is not that they know they have to hit to win, but that they do not realize how strong you are already and belive they have more outs than they actually do. unfortunately there are times when they hit one of the few outs that can actually beat us. but alas, this is poker. thanks again to all, and good luck out there. unfortunately for me, i am moving back to chicago where there are no tournaments that i know of, and there is really only one close cardroom that has about 4-7 tables running maximum. a big change from southern california, and its myriad cardrooms boasting hundreds of tables and its proximity to vegas which i have yet to visit. someday... someday...
some thoughts on the wilson tourney program. In the beginning I played mostly average difficulty (2 rebuys} and did not do all that well and so decided to see how I`d fair at difficult .. well low and behold I`m always finishing in the last table and am up $200.00 after about five tournies at various structures at the difficult level.( all rebuy events} I`m focussing on rebuys for now because its all they are offering at the casino {other then no limit and I need to learn the betting process first) I really wish the program had settings for player types and an advisor. any thoughts would appreciated
jg
An advisor can be more trouble than it's worth. It won't explain why the recommended play is the right one and besides that it might easily be wrong.
Not sure what you mean by "settings for player types" but it would be useful to change the population of opponents to have more loose, tight, passive or aggressive players so you can model your real-life opponents more closely.
I haven't seen the latest version though so correct me if you can do this.
Andy.
yes Andy that is exactly my point... that it would be nice to mix the population to model my (your) play against the field... This I would find invaluable for last table play and or satelite play. You make a good point about the advisor concept.. I must say that I`m doing quite well every tourney I`m in ,Believe me I realize its far from reality at the table but hell its better then nothing for sure. I`m aware that the new version has wsop format and anything else I`d have to go the sight to investigate. I have version 2 which is the second last release.. Soaring eagle casino has tournies and the bad thing is thier multi rebuys and curious to know if you think they`re worth getting into or will it most likely be a maniac zone...
jg
I have the wilosn Tournamnet software not the news version. (Pot limit etc.)
I was a bit dissipointed that you cant change the blinds like just the enteries and time of limit.
I also thing It away too easy I have play the T5000+320 enters and I have fineshed first 6 times out of 12 entered ... The players isnt that smart when you down too 3 players at the final table you can raise 3-4 times the big blind they fold to mutch.
comments ??
jg,
I purchased this software four months ago, and I wish I could get my money back. The software has two many limitations and no flexability. I think its OK for someone that never plays tourneys, or is interested in learning before they play one.
I hope someone can make a better program. I would like to have a program that would allow me to specify my stack size and number of opponents left, so I can simulate probabilities. I guess for now I can dream.
Good Luck
Mark
www.pokersoft.co.uk
Andy.
No Limit Hold'em daily tourney, I have a tight image.
I was short stacked when the antes kicked in, so like I've read you should do(ciaffone, Jonny Chan, etc..), I decided to take a stand with an ace high and went all-in. I won the blinds & antes. Next hand another ace high, so I go all-in and won'em again. Next hand I'm two away from under-the-gun and get ace-3 suited, but now I'm not so horribly short stacked and I don't want to push my luck so I tossed 'em, it was passed to the big blind uncontested and he turned over 8-3 offsuit laughing, so I would have won a third time if i had gone all-in.
So my question is: how many times times in a row would you(or have you gone)go all-in with a not-so-hot hand? For instance, would you consider doing it until you have an average size stack? Bigger than average?
Dan D.,
IMO, I don't think that you can push your luck too many times in a row unless your table is just incredibly weak. Someone is eventually going to wise up to what you're trying to do and possibly catch you on a steal.
You can loosen up your steal attempts when you're in better position. Don't get caught up front. Now that you've got a little bit of ammo, you can afford to be more selective. If I commit, I'm going to do it with a hand that can hold up without improvement.
Best wishes, Mike
Aha, this is where the head games start. If you raise for the fourth time in a row, say, your opponents may well think that you are stealing. However, if they're a level up on that, they know that you know that, so you're more likely to have a real hand. But one level higher, they know that you know all that, and so on and so on as high as you like.
The problem in early position is that you've got everyone behind you, each thinking at their own level. I would just play each hand as it comes. If you now have reasonable chips so that you don't have to make a move this round, then A3 UTG+1 is an easy fold.
Against typical weak opponents, their fear in the later stages of the tournament will override their "level-based" thinking a lot of the time and you can steal with impunity, but I don't overdo it in early position as there is too much chance that someone can find a real hand.
In practice I just try to take account of my image at the present time. If I haven't raised for 40 minutes because I've been dealt nothing but cheese and have not had any good positional situations, my opponents aren't to know the reason, and can perceive me as tight. Vice versa if you find 4 real hands/situations in a row. Sometimes you can just "sense" when the mood shifts and the table is ready to lie down / play back at you. If you miss this shift though it can be costly :-)
Hope this helps,
Andy.
I also find that this can be one of the rare places when you might want to show your hand. If you have taken the blinds un-contested two or three times by going all-in you might want to show a premium hand that you took the blinds with saying something like "You guys really know when to fold 'em". If they see you taking the blinds three times in a row they are sure to get suspicious so you might want to remind them that you still get big hands. I was in this position once where I did the above then two hands later got AA which I didn't raise with - gives great deception but is obviously risky.
I hope this all makes sense - by no means do I consider myself a master tactician, Im only an average player giving his views so any comments, constructive critisicm is greatly appreciated.
heard the term "increasing at an increasing rate"?? each time you do it , that term applies to your chances of being called. but if you really have the hand, why not?? Hayden's idea might be good one---showing the big cards that is--not so sure about his play of the AA. Jim
The more often you go all-in in consecutive hands the more likely someone will call you since they won't believe that you have something 3 or 4 times in a row.
Ken Poklitar
it is quite a predicament to have to decide how to make your moves, especially in hold em, especially in no limit holdem and especially in a no limit holdem tournament. this being said, your read on your opponents is your best clue as to where you sit image-wise as well as skill-wise. you can tell a lot by the kind of hands that your opponents showdown, and how they play them (i think we all know this, but im just saying...) so you have to be able to read the players left to act and be able to discern just how likely it is you'll get away with a steal, plus if you get a call, how your hand plays against the type of hand the caller will call with. whoo!! a lot to think about. if you know your opponent is loose passive, then he may be playing a wide range of hands, and if he is the bettor or raiser, watch out! even if the nut hand would have to be 25, if they are suddenly aggressive, you have to be the bigger player and make that tough laydown with top set. quite a tough laydown that would be too, ill admit. but at the same time, its the hands you are willing to fold that make you a winner in no limit hold em, at least thats how i see it.
I think your fold of A3 is probably correct. Like others have said, the more you're raising, the more they doubt you really have the goods.
I ran over a super-satellite last year. I was dealt the best hand preflop almost every hand for well over an hour. And they all held up. And they were almost all being seen, as I was getting called a lot, and showing some of them also. I seriously never "stole" the blinds once, since I had a very good hand for the circumstances every time.
Anyway, at one point, where I had stolen the blinds 3 times in a row, I raised again with KK. The big blind called all-in with KJ and lost. As he was showing his hand and leaving, he said something like "You've been raising so much, I was sure you must be bluffing." One of the other guys at the table, a very good working pro, said to him something like "What do you mean stealing? Haven't you seen him turn over a big hand EVERY SINGLE TIME?" The point is, no matter how clear it is that you're not just stealing, people will tend to not believe you when you've been raising a lot.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You are its final table in the World series 10,000 main evet. You have mid stack 650,000...Whats your How should you play ....with that stack. Play for winning ore just try to play TIGHT. /sorry for bad english /hope you understand what i mean
Comments please
Johan,
I think you should play to win. Not many people get a chance to make it to the final table. For most players, it's their only chance in their lifetime.
I prefer to play so as to maximize my expected return. Sometimes that means I favor a risky approach to a hand, and sometimes it means a conservative approach. It all depends upon ALL the little details at each moment.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Its final table in the World series 10,000 main evet. You have mid stack 650,000...Whats your play ....with that stack. Play for winning ore just try to play TIGHT. /sorry for bad english /hope you understand what i mean
Comments please
Well, knowing squat about OooMeeHaw, I managed to nail 2nd place on saturday's round 2 tourny.
Playing there, although the quality of play is bad, has definitely helped me improve my no limit skillz.
I played 13 no limit tounaments this week, got low 20's in 11, 37th in one, and 1st in one. All roughly 200 entrant tournies. Much improved from a few months ago where getting to the halfway point consistently was a struggle.
So although frustrating at times, I do recommend doing the pokerpages tournies as good practice cheap...and lots of it.
CrazyJim Allen
I'm going to AC this weekend and I am thinking about playing the $115 Friday Tourney at the Trop. Any regulars in this tourney? How tough is the competition? Is it likely for a good player to make the money? Any other observations appreciated.
Jeff
I play occasionally. The competition is good, and the tourney is well run. First place usually pays anywhere from 3-5k. Good luck
that is all,
danny boy :o)
225 entries, 3 tables played @ Commerce. 500 to start, no rebuys.
4 tables left I hold KTd early position at a 7 handed table, blinds are 100-200 with 25 ante. SB and BB both hold 5k+. I went all in with ~1600 and got called by the BB with AQ. My reasoning was that play had been pretty tight we were just before the 3 table payday. Just how bad is this play (if at all) and how low would your stack have to be in order to move all in in this scenario?
BTW the Commerce tourneys truly suck. For a $300 buy in tourney players should start with more chips and they should use the TEARS system. They just use the tourneys as an excuse to funnel players into the ring games and don't seem to care about the actual quality of the tourney. To top it off, very few players are playing terribly so I can't see how anyone can have that much of an edge. Total waste of time.
Robin,
I am a firm believer in the fact that you paid good $$$ to play in the tournament, so play how you best think will maximize your chances of winning. I, myself don't have the kind of cabbage to play in tournaments like this :) but I surmise the competition is pretty stiff.
If I were playing in your spot (and I'm stressing a very big if), I would pass this hand. You still have reasonable ammo to wait for a better opportunity to present itself. It's costing you T475 to sit out a round, so you have some time, maybe 12-15 hands or so.
If I have maybe about T700 or less, I would definitely consider sliding in with KTs. Again, this is a big if, and I'm making speculation based on only your stack size and the hand that you're dealt.
Whenever you choose to shove in, you're going to get called because 2 players have the chips to play sheriff. In addition to choosing a hand, you're going to have to improve to continue.
Could your choice have been influenced by the bad tournament structure? It seems you spent more time in your post complaining about the format instead of focusing on the actual hand. It's a shame that you're spending your hard-earned money for a tournament that you feel is less than spectacular.
Maybe you could send Commerce an email expressing your disapproval of their tournament format and structure. I don't know personally if that will effect a change for the better, but if enough people express concern... maybe they will revise the tournament. Nothing will change if no one does anything to suggest improvement. Take the initiative and tell Commerce what you want. They're a business just like any other corporation and need satisfied customers to survive.
Just my two cents. Good luck whatever you decide to do, Robin.
Mike
You are right about my choice being influenced by my thinking about the structure. I was constantly thinking about barely squeeking by and making it to 10th place or something and only being paid 600 or so. This put me in a stealing mood and it cost me.
I also was thinking it was a good time (in general) to steal because people were playing tight before the money cutoff but of course it's irrelevant here because the blinds have such large stacks.
I wouldn't have played the tourney if I had known the initial chip count were so low. I had already bought my entry when I found out so I figured I might as well play rather than ask for my money back.
I will send the Commerce an email. Thanks for the suggestion.
It's not a play I would make. As Mike points out, you are not too short-stacked and can find a better spot that this. With almost the whole table still to act, if you get called, you are losing, no doubt. I don't like to make moves without a hand from early position unless I am very short-stacked and have to play before the blinds, or if I have lots of chips and can easily get away from a re-raise (and if I make that play KT is not the hand to do it with, suited or no).
On the button I would definitely make the raise but that's a different scenario.
At least having decided to raise you did it by correctly moving all-in.
Andy.
Does the all-in accomplish anything more than a raise to $600? I don’t think you are desperate here so I would like to leave myself some outs. I would fold to a re-raise. Also, this allows you to fire a second shot on the flop if the blind calls and checks the flop.
I think raising to $600 creates more problems than it solves. Theres $575 in the pot before you start, $1175 with your raise and the big blind only has to call $400 to see the flop. If he senses weakness then he will most probably put the question to you on the flop and then you might have a very difficult decision to make.
$600 isn't enough. A pot-size raise would be about $1000 to go and seeing as you only have $1600 this will commit you to the pot. Go all-in to discourage callers as much as possible.
If a top player in the BB senses your weakness he could also re-raise pre-flop with a lot of hands or even any two.
Andy.
Does the all-in accomplish anything more than a raise to $600? I don’t think you are desperate here so I would like to leave myself some outs. I would fold to a re-raise. Also, this allows you to fire a second shot on the flop if the blind calls and checks the flop
I have found at the Commerce when you get down to three or four tables the blinds are disproportiantly large to the number of chips left that it bascially becomes a crap shot and whoever picks up the most hands or gets the luckiest will advance. All the play is taken out of the tournament and few players have enough chips to play a hand through.
Bruce
yes, it was. as Andy said, should have waited. Jim
I was playing in a limit tournament last Saturday. It started with 97 players and top 18 get paid. I was having a slow day with not much hands to play. I was able to steal a few times, but I was simply not getting cards. Anyways, we're down to about 23 players and I'm really short-stacked with 1000 in chips. Blinds are 200-400 and I'm UTG+1. I get A10o and raise to 800. I get called by the button and the BB. The flop comes 7 8 J rainbow. The BB bets 400 and I call with my remaining 200 to try to make my straight. The turn and river didn't improve my hand and the BB took the pot with A8s (button folded on the flop).
About a minute later, I noticed that four or five other players from the other two remaining tables busted out. Apparently, they were just as short-stacked as me at that time. Everyone else left in the tournament at least got their money back.
My question is: Are there times when you start to play to just barely get in the money, or should my focus be to always winning the tournament? In other words, could it ever be justified for me to pass on my A10o hand and go another round and just hope that others bust out so I get my buy-in back? If I passed, then I'd have about 10 free hands (after paying the blinds) and hope to pick up a big premium hand or hope that others bust out. However, I felt that A10 was about strong enough to try to make a stand. I know this sounds rather wimpy, but do you guys ever think about this when you're very short-stacked but close to the money?
Please don't hesitate to flame away.
If you pass it will cost T600 to see the blinds and you will have T400 left and virtually no shot to win the event. However you will finish in the money, but that basically gets you your money back. I would play the hand and try to win the event.
Bruce
sure you think about it, it is important. In your specific case you were about to have to post the blinds, taking 600 of your 1,000 thus your hand looks BIG, the raise looks OK, if you just call, then fold you are down to bottom in chips after posting blinds. Had you been in the blinds, or late position, the you might be better off to wait for others to bust. Did you have any idea of others chip standing...that's allways good to know...I've even seen players get up to look at other table. Jim
When it gets close to the money, I usually sneak a peek at the other tables to see how many players are short-stacked. Unfortunately, this time I didn't do that because I felt that I needed to win a hand to stand a chance to get into the money. I was surprised to find out later that there were at least a couple of others who were as short-stacked as me. Next time I'm in this situation, I'll be sure to check out the chip stacks on the other tables.
I think if you are 1 or 2 spots away from the money then it is fine to fold some marginal raising hands to try to sneak in.
In your case I like the raise with ATo. How do you know 4 players are going to bust out a few hands later.
Ken Poklitar
It is always worth considering, and it is important to always know where you stand in the field. Whenever we are getting close to the money, I always stand up (and walk around if necessary) to count the number of players and look at their stacks. If I'm short- or medium-stacked, then it's even more important. You can also consider stalling a bit when it's your turn, even if you know you're going to fold a hand, if it will buy you enough time to let others go broke before the blinds reach you. Don't take this too far.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Home game tournament played on Saturday. $35 buy-in, with one $35 re-buy when one goes broke in the first three rounds. Two tables -- consolidate to one table when eight players left. To keep tables balanced: whenever one table had two or more players than the other table players at the heavy table would draw cards to send one to the light table.
One such table changed happened in the second round -- table B was down to four players, with table A having six players. The chip leader from table A was sent to table B.
Question: Do the players at Table A have a legit complaint over losing the big stack?
Well, they did. They claimed that Table 8 was "chip starved" and its players would be destined to be short-stacked at the final table. Some cited the fact that the Table A players were eliminated 1-2-3 from the final table as evidence of this disadvantage.
Comments?
Jon I.
To answer your question, no, they don't have a claim.
If they drew the player to be changed, then everything is fair and noone should complain. I would personnaly welcome the fact that the chip leader was not at my table anymore, if he was a solid player. If he was weak then I'd like him to be there, so I could double through him.
Anyway everything was fair. What could have been proposed is that they make up the final table now, with the 10 last remaining players. Although, I would not like to change rules like that in the middle of a tournament.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
They're not at a disadvantage because of this. A lot of the time it is very difficult to fight this kind of fuzzy thinking, and not worth trying to explain. Example : at a similar stage of the tournament, two tables were mismatched with 7 and 5 players for a short time. The 5-player table complained that they were at a disadvantage because they were paying the blinds more often. Me asking "and who exactly are you paying them to, dum-dum ?" (or words to that effect) didn't help and I just gave up.
It is, however, more customary to move either the smallest stack or the player who is about to receive the big blind. Just keep it consistent and either of these might be preferable.
Andy.
I think a better method is to move the person who would be in the same position as the person who just busted out from the other table. Example: A player two to the right of the button busts out to make the tables 5 and 7 players. Move the person from the 7 person table who would be three to the right of the button to the other table. This stops someone from getting the button or paying the blinds twice in a row.
I agree that it is hard to make people see the light -- especially when they aren't serious poker players. They continue to maintain that moving the big stack to the other table deprived them of the ability to get big stacked and compete with the players at the other table.
However, I did the math. Three players came to the final table from their table. Four from mine. Coming to the final table the average stack size from our table was only T10 higher than the average stack size. At the final table, their table's players were the 7th, 5th and 2nd in stack size among the seven players, yet they were eliminated 1-2-3 from the final table. The top two finishers started the table tied for 3rd in stack size, and the third place finisher (me) started the final table with the 6th largest stack. I don't even see how the table change had an effect in practice, let alone in theory.
The idea of moving the short stack would have other bad effects -- but for the person moved. Because he is going to a table that has by definition lost more players he is going to a table where a lot of chips are concentrated among fewer people than at his previous table. He is MORE short-stacked now, relative to these big stacks. I don't see this ending the complaints.
four players left,money for three 410$,230 and 160. three of us have equal stacks. I am on the button with a9suited.bets are 2000-4000.small blind small stack but big blind has defended his blind every time and has been lucky , shoould i raise call or toss?
How big is your stack and the remaining stacks?
If you know the BB will defend with any hand, you are often a significant favorite, but you are still one out of the money if you push too hard and lose. It is important to know the chip positions of everyone with respect to the blinds and antes.
Derrick
you asked "should I raise, call, or fold?"
with AA, raise
with AK, call
with A2, fold
seriously though, you didn't tell us what hand you have, and that does enter into the decision. Jim
oops, I see I made a mistake, sorry about that!!!!I think the A9 is good enough to raise with...likely you have the best hand, so go for it.... Jim
"big blind has defended his blind every time " this is probably the key (although we do need to know how many chips you and your opponents (roughly) have).
If the big blind is trying to make the money and playing tight, you can make a lot of steal raises in this spot. Here, however, if he is defending liberally you should be raising for value more often. A9 is good enough to think about it definitely.
However, 410-230-160-zip is an unusual payout structure. With 160 for third and only an additional 80 for second, this favours waiting for the money more than a more conventional payout.
Could be a close one but these are the kind of things you should be considering. Hope this helps,
Andy.
At my local cardroom tournaments have the following strange rebuy/addon structure.
For $10(+$2) entry you get T200 chips. Blinds start at T5-10, and approx double every 15 minutes.
For $10 you can rebuy and get T400 chips, provided it is before (or at) the break (and you have less than 400), as many times as you like.
The break is after four 15 minute rounds, and after the break, blinds are T50-100.
At the break their is an OPTIONAL add-on: for $20 you get T2000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What do you think of that? Any comments on general strategy for this tournament?
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
Buy-in. Re-buy. Eat dinner. Re-buy (@40 hands/hr you should have posted $225 in blinds). Add-on. Start playing poker.
Which doesn't work as well as you'd think Eeyore. Here's what happens when you do that:
Upside: You now have around T2400.
Downsides: You have no clue how everyone else plays You have no chance of making more than T2400. Everyone else left in the tournament ALSO has T2400 or more because not only do they get a chance to rebuy, but they've also been playing poker and accumulating chips. You've spent $42 on an entry fee, a rebuy, another rebuy and all you have to show for it is near last place (if not absolute last place) in chip position.
I wouldn't leave and go eat dinner, and I'm sure he's joking about that. But he is right in that what happens before the ADD-ON is of very little importance. I saw a tournament somewhat like this in Tucson last year. Many of the good players will not show you their "A" game until after the break.
JohnnyD
Even better, do some false advertising during the rebuy stage, could really pay off later (whichever way you want to do it).
Andy.
Is this NL or Limit?
Take the addon, it is not optional. You should probably not play the tourney if you don't plan to take it.
If this is NL, I would take a rebuy as soon as I drop below 400. The more chips you have the better.
Ken Poklitar
It is limit holdem, except at the final table (which will always be sometime after the break) where it becomes NL.
The add-on is theoretically optional, but I was being tongue-in-cheek when I capitalized `OPTIONAL'. I find it virtually inconceivable that adding-on could be incorrect with this structure.
But I also find it surprising that anyone would consider rebuying any time other than when you are bust, with this structure.
So the real questions are, how to play such a tournament, and why did the cardroom choose this structure (apart from obviously encouraging everyone to add on)?
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
I would simply try to avoid a rebuy. It's as simple as that. Let others build the prize pool with rebuys. And after the add-on, there's not much difference between stacks. Can anyone come up with a good argument against this?
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
Not the kind of tournament I ever play but an interesting scenario. Normally with the first re-buy getting $200 in chips and subsequent re-buys $400, you would take as many of the $400 re-buys as possible because the chips are worth slightly more than what you are paying for them.
However, now there is a third factor with the massive add-on. Could it be that the add-on means that the $400 re-buys are now negative EV ? It probably depends how many $400 re-buys are being taken. Anyway I think you could well be right. Always take the add-on of course, but the $400 re-buys may well be slightly (or more than slightly) -EV.
Andy.
With this structure, it seems that rebuys are negEV.
Your initial buy-in ($12 for T200) and add-on ($20 for T2000) gives you T2200 for $32. The rebuys at $10 for T400 are much worse value. I think you should rebuy if and only if you bust, and you should do everything you can not to go bust.
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
Playing in a home game tournament I was dealt this hand constantly (as well as Kxs). What do I do with it four- or five-handed?
Players I was against were far more likely to just call a 3xBB raise with better hands rather than re-raise.
I was often seeing this hand on the button when somebody else had limped in, preventing me from trying to steal the blinds.
How do I play this hand, if at all? I don't recall playing it, but I had the feeling I should have been.
Jon I.
Ax is a pretty good hand shorthanded.
Of course it makes a difference in how much defending of blinds the other players are doing. Normally I would raise with it from the button and cutoff with Ax with 4 or 5 players.
If defending by the opponents is weak then you can raise with almost anything from the button and maybe even the cutoff. Of course fold if re-raised when you attempted a steal with something weak. If you get called by the button on a weak steal attempt you need to be careful on the flop.
Ken Poklitar
Fold Axo if someone else is in the pot. Otherwise only play Axo when the blinds start getting big.
I was playing at Commerce's $330 buy in No Limit event on Sunday, and was short stacked. There were about 8 tables left (final 3 tables in the money), and had T425. Blinds were 50-100, and would be moving up in 3 or 4 minutes. I'm on the button with A4o. The big blind had an average stack, and he was very tight. The small blind was the table chip leader, and a touch on the loose side, though he respected me. I had a tight image (not that it mattered at this point...they had to know I was close to desperate).
My question is, knowing this, is A4o too weak of a hand to push in here. Knowing that by the time my blinds come around, we may be playing with 100-200 blinds, I knew I had to take a shot. Did I push in too early? Should I have mucked?
(I lost...SB called me with A8s, and he won, unimproved).
Thanks in advance,
Worm
Yes I think your all in bet is good. Your mistake was getting short stacked in the first place, not this hand..
Okay, one quick little bad beat story. The man in the small blind was short stacked, and I raised in early position with AQs. He reraised (about 60% more than I had initially raised), I called, and it was heads up (I think I made it 250 to go, he made it 400 to go). He had AQo, and made a flush. Dem's the breaks.
Now, for the irony. In the $3000 buy in at the WSOP, similar situation, only I Had AKs, and lost to AKo.
After this loss, it was a struggle to survive, and one that I was doing okay at until two rounds without being able to steal the blinds. Next time, I'll just not get short stacked :)
Worm
.
I think a4o is fine to go all-in in your situation. It is unfortunate the chip leader is in one of the blinds.
Once you get 5x or 6x you are shortstacked and you need to make your move. In your case you are 4x but the blinds are about to double which puts you at 2x. At 4x you can go all-in and the raise may be big enough for everyone to fold. At 2x there is little or no chance you can get everyone to fold.
Ken Poklitar
Was it a full table? Were there any antes? How big was the SB's stack? If your T425 impacts him less than 20% of his stack, and he's on the loose side, he's more than likely to call you with just about anything, right?
I don't think I want to go to war with A4o in this position. Even though the blinds will double, if the table is full, I think I'd rather take the chance of waiting for a better hand, given what you have outline in your post.
you are on the button--thaat means you don't post for good while, so wait--that kicker is just too small. Jim
"I'd rather take the chance of waiting for a better hand".
No. If you'd rather wait for a better _situation_ that's fine. However, A4o on the button when everyone has passed to you is a better spot than, say, A9o in early position.
Raise is fine, bad luck.
Andy.
Andy,
Thanks for pointing out my less than accurate choice of words. Let me be more specific: In the above situation, given that I'm A4o on the button, and it is a full table.....My clear choice would be to pass and wait for a "better situation" to present itself. If what you are saying is that you would opt to push 'em in in his position then I must disagree. Please explain your rationale?
Turtle,
I think the issue is mainly that the blinds are about to double. Once they double you have almost no chance of raising and winning without someone calling. With 3-5 minutes remaining in the round you have 2 or 3 more hands.
The fact that the chip leader is in the SB does makes things dicey but the chip leader is always going to be next to act after this player. If the chip leader is the type to call any raise from an all-in player then you can't do much about it. I say try now where you have some high card power plus the raise of 325 is still decent sized.
Ken Poklitar
OK Ken,
I don't pretend to be bright enough to feel 100% that I have not overlooked ALL mitigating factors here...Yes, the blinds doubling does somewhat diminish the small stack's potential leverage once they increase. It would be nice to know by how much the SB out-stacks him as this often plays a significant factor on the big stack's willingness to play "table cop". I guess what I'm getting to, in an anecdotal fashion, is....basically the button A4o player is in a pretty tough spot...It's a matter of where he chooses to make a stand. Does he push allin here with perhaps a slim edge with A4o? Or does he opt to wait for the unknown of the next 7 hands? I'm sure that you've seen it work favorably in both cases...I know that I have. So.......is it "The Lady or The Tiger"? My personal preference, in THIS particular case, it to muck the hand.
The all-in raise with A4o is the best play, IMO. As somebody pointed out, with the blinds going up soon, if you get junk in the next couple of hands, then by the time you do raise the big blind (whoever it is) is going to be able to call with any 2 cards, so you will have no chance to steal the blinds, and will have to win the showdown. The only way that becomes more than about 2:1 in your favor is if you find a big pair that is higher than both of the callers cards, and this is VERY unlikely to happen in the next 6 or so hands.
Here, even if the SB chip leader is playing loose, and he knows you might be taking your shot with a medium hand, he ought to be at least a little worried about the BB behind him who might have something legitimate. If I were the SB, I would not just call with anything, but would fold most of my hands. The BB also should fold a lot, since he knows you're probably holding at least an above average hand. In either event, no matter what percentage of the time each of them calls, your A4 is worth raising, as the looser they call, the more likely you're ahead, and the tighter they call, the more often you steal the blinds.
If you wait, what if you find A9 the next time, but somebody else has already raised before it's your turn? Now, you can't steal, and they likely have a better hand. What if you have AK even? They still might have a pair, and even if they don't, you still can't win without winning the showdown.
I like your chances to steal the blinds here. It ought to succeed close to half the time, maybe more, against typical players. That's a lot better than needing to win the showdown.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Turtle -
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. The SB had (this is an estimation...its been a few days, and I didn't know exactly at the time, either) close to T3000 in chips. I feel very confident that it was between 2700 and 3500 somewhere. I also do not mean to say that he was LOOSE. He was a good (but not great) player, and was nothing like a maniac or table cop.
I was very (and still somewhat) undecided as to whether or not I picked the right situation. One other factor that I ought to mention (and should have earlier) is that for the previous three rounds, I had stolen the blinds once per round, and lost my blinds...I bounce back and forth between T575 and T425. That is, for the previous 3 rounds, I had raised all-in with T425 and not been called by either blind (and no players had changed in this time period), so there was definitely no table-policing going on.
One quick question for Andy, Greg, and Ken -
would you push it all in with any two cards in this situation? Is the fact that the blinds are about to double, and the fact that the table has folded around to you on the button a big enough factor to totally outweigh the strength of your cards? If not, how weak of a hand would you push in with? Just curious.
Thanks for the responses.
Worm
Would you push it in with any two cards in this situation ? No. Probably any Ace, any pair, any suited King, any "20" hand i.e J9, Q8, K7. Depends on the opponents in the blinds and depends _exactly_ when the blinds are about to increase but that's round about the standards I would have.
Andy.
If I were pretty sure that this was the last hand of this level, I would go all-in with any above average hand (unless the players were such that there was some chance that I would get called by both, in which case I need a top 25% or so hand). Since you think there are a few hands left, I'd wait and see if I can't pick up a better than just slightly-above-average hand. However, I wouldn't ever criticize anybody who did raise all-in with a barely better-than-average hand here. If it's not the best play, it ain't much worse.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This last week, at the Intermountain Poker Championship in Wendover, NV(hosted by Capt. Tom Franklin and directed by Bob Thompson) Gary K., the owner of an Internet service provider, won 3 tournaments in a row. He won the $125 Omaha Hi/Lo, $100 7 Stud, and the $2000 NLHE. True, the fields were small, but in the NLHE his final three opponents were no less than TJ Cloutier, Erik Seidel and Capt. Tom.
Apparently, only the Omaha was 'chopped', as opposed to how Buntjer supposedly chopped all three, taking the worst of it at least once. Congrats to Gary, State Line poker room mgr. Randy Butcher, and all employees of the State Line poker room; as well as all the players from Utah, Idaho and Nevada who attended.
State Line ph#: 1-800-354-3671(ext 6011 or 6056), 1-775-664-2221
Looks like there have been a lot of questions lately about short-stacked situations. Here's another one that I need some help with. Here's the situation:
It's NL, there's two full tables left (top 9 or 10 get paid), and I'm really short-stacked, but have enough chips to go through maybe 2 more rounds. I guess I'm starting to get pretty desperate and need to make a move. In addition to the blinds, there is also an ante so I'm losing some chips with each hand that is dealt. I get A10o or AJo in EARLY position (UTG, UTG+1, UTG+2). Do you automatically push all-in (assuming that you're first to open)? These are above-average hands, but when you're called, chances are your opponent holds a pocket pair or a big ace. The last two times I busted out in my local NL tourney was with A10o and AJo in this situation where I was called by AK on both occasions.
Should I wait for a better hand or is this a no-brainer preflop all-in for me? Also, does it make a difference if I'm suited?
Thanks in advance for your comments and advice.
No I would not wait. Loosing to AK is no big deal, you would likely of busted out whatever you did.
If you wait, the better hand will probably come in the next tournament.
this may not apply to you, but seems that a lot of players who have not had a lot of experience with N/L seem to think in terms of where to bet the whole stack. that is not allways the best bet. In the hand shown above why not just bet 1/3 or 1/2 of your stack and be ready to put in the balance if raised. If no raise (VERY possible), then you decide what to do after the flop IF you were called ( many times you will NOT be called). Jim
Jim,
I completely understand your point here about not betting my whole stack. However, in this situation, I don't have much choice because my whole stack is around 3-4 times the BB. It would appear that betting something like 2xBB or about half my stack would most likely be called by at least one of the chip leaders on the table (especially if he's in the BB). In this situation, I don't really want to get called because I'm probably an underdog to most hands that will call my AJ or A10. By betting my whole stack preflop, I'm hoping that it's a big enough raise to not warrant a call by a marginal hand (especially the BB). Hope this makes sense.
The general rule I use is that if I can overbet the pot slightly pre flop, and still have enough to make a pot sized bet on the flop, then thats what I will do. Otherwise I think its best to go all in
If you choose to push this hand (you should), then PUSH IT HARD for god's sakes.
I.E. Go all-in. If you only raise 2x the BB I am going to call you in the BB without looking at my cards. Once you raise half your stack you are commited. Raise all-in now and put more pressure on the blinds.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
... and I bet the flop with any two cards as well.
Keep preaching it Nic, I have almost given up trying to convince people that you will never be a consistent winner at tournament poker if you are always scared of being knocked out. Not only will you miss out on the top prizes, you are actually more likely to get yourself KO'd in this kind of situation by pussy-footing around. And if you walk home congratulating yourself on your great fold to me when I had 27, and bemoaning your bad luck when you called the blinds with your last chip with AJ and lost, you'll never get any better. That's all for now.
Andy.
I agree with you guys, but I favor make this kind of move earlier, before you get so short stacked that opponents won't fold. You gotta do it when you don't look so desperate. If you're short stacked when there's two full tables left, then why hang on to try to make the final table, getting shorter stacked each hand. Take some chances and try to double through.
JohnnyD
I agree that pushing it all-in is the only option. Being suited makes a minimal difference in your situation.
Don't worry about what happened in a previous tournament. Your AJ or AT with you being shortstacked is a very good hand. It is unfortunate that someone has a slightly better hand but that is poker.
Ken Poklitar
Reno HIlton, twilight PL holdem. 80 players, 80k in play, 2 tables left, 14 players, 8 spots paid $. Blinds are 300/900, and table is pretty tight. I have been able to increase my stack from ~4K to 8.1K and used 2K raise to pick up blinds 3 times in past 9 hands. I am dealt AKo on button, folded to me and I make same raise. Bb looks, has 8.3K and pushes all in. I call. My thinking: 1) I have seen players re-steal with as little as Ax 2) it appears my button raise could simply be position 3) if I win I am in really good shape and I am really only interested in one of top 2 spots. Player has KK and I catch no Ace. Thoughts? Criticisms? My entire PL experience consisted of these 4 1/2 hrs so my analysis maybe in error :-). Reno Hilton does a great job with friendly staff, nice dealers and the competitors are almost universally nice. Best,Gary
Sounds fine, all your reasons are valid. If the BB is good enough to realise that you need a _lot_ less than AK to make the steal then there is every chance you are ahead. Just unlucky to run into one of the two hands you don't want to see.
I very much enjoyed a couple of tournaments at the Reno Hilton last winter and would love to return soon.
Andy.
have heard it said that to win one of these tournaments you have to win with AK, and you have to beat AK....he did. Think I would have done same as you, but some would say that at tight table (as you described) you have to give him credit for a pair, and not go broke on a draw. Jim
The people who say that kind of thing are normally saying it on the rail at this point.
Once you get down to the last three players, they're ALWAYS on the rail.
Andy.
Now, Andy, there is much more truth to that phrase than your response suggests---think about it. Jim
Jim,
Apologies for my unclear response. I was referring to the second part of your post about giving credit for a pair and passing. This really is too weak with AK in this position.
For sure you have to win with AK and beat AK to win a tournament.
Andy.
Couple of comments:
First, there's 1200 in the pot to you, so a pot-sized raise would be to make it 3000 to go (1200 + your 900 call = max raise of 2100). So, I would have made it 3000 to go- did you make it 2000 or 2900?
Your decision to call is sound for several reasons. Based on what you explained, it sounds as though there are many, many hands with which you may have considered raising here; so if I were the BB, I would reraise with any big Ace or any medium pair or larger. If I was the BB holding Aces or Kings, I would definitely just call here and check the flop. So, with his all-in reraise, I would be thinking that I either had him dominated, or he had a pair smaller than Kings.
In one case you're a huge favorite and in the other you are a small dog. Your odds of being a huge favorite here are quite favorable, so I would call. You just got unlucky that he played the hand poorly.
Here's why I think he played it poorly: It is much more likely that you are on a steal here than you are to be holding a hand with which you can call an all-in reraise. You can only call an all-in reraise with aces or AK, for the most part... and he doesn't want to play for all his chips against either of these hands, I wouldn't think. He really should have just called your raise and busted you with a trap on the flop or turn if an Ace doesn't come.
It was TJ who said you have to both win with AK and beat AK to win a no-limit tournament. The reason is that this is the hand with which, or against which you are most likely to end up heads-up for all of your chips. There are 16 ways to be dealt AK and only 6 ways to be dealt pocket Aces. Also, most people will either raise or call all-in with AK if they have to, so if you combine these two factors, you are quite likely to be in this circumstance once or twice during a tournament.
CH
Your reasoning for calling his all-in reraise is just fine, as long as it actually applies to this particular player. It will apply to most players, but not all. Some guys are so weak-tight, they wouldn't reraise your button-raise with less than AKs even if you accidentally exposed your 72o.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Guys
thanks for reponses. Craig, my strategy in whole tournament on blind steals was to consistently just bet 2x or a little more for the steal. A) it usually worked b) if I got called, and flop missed, it was not too expensive c) if I got re-popped I could let the hand go without too much pain (now again, this whole strategy worked for 4 whole hours of PL play so I realize there may be a few flaws :-). Greg, I do not know a very part-time player like me could know enough to judge a player based on "weak-tight" actions so quickly. What I mean is that I play infrequently and exposure to any player is very limited. And I give credit to making it to last few players with quite a feew chips as a sign of some action. HAving said all the above, I had a blast playing this tournament and look foward to more. Gary
I've enjoyed the analysis of this particular post. I was in the same tournament...busted out fairly early when I called an all-in bet, knowing I was behind. Probably not a good idea early in the tournament. My situation was: Blinds were 25-50 (second round).
Original chip count was 500, I had one steal and one pass on my blind so was at 500, less 50 posted in BB position. I had KsQs and called a 50 raise from middle position player Flop was 10s, Js, Kh giving me top pair and open ended str8 flush draw. I bet $100 reducing my stack to 350. (Should have bet more?) Middle position pre-flop raiser puts me all-in. I called, missed on turn and river and was shown 10-10 for a flopped set.
My reasoning for the call was that the evening tournaments have fairly rapid blind increases and I would need to double up fairly quickly if I was to compete. Folding and being reduced to 350 chip count didn't seem like the best strategy to me at the time, but in hindsight, I might have folded. I actually had put the player on A-Q for a flopped str8.
These types of decisions are difficult for me. I've observed that very few of the top players go out on hands like this, so I suppose I have to fix some leaks in my pl/nl game. Would appreciate some analyis on these types of situations.
Ed Barrett
Ed
Wow, royal flush/straight flush draw, top pair et al. This is really going to make your day but I would have played it exactly as you did :-). Hope your hand hits next time. Gary
Ed said "I've observed that very few of the top players go out on hands like this"
I don't know if that's right Ed. I see lots of big name people getting busted early. I remember in the first few minutes of a NL tournament in Reno earlier this year, John Bonetti was busted and I heard him telling somebody the hand, I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was a draw. In the same tournament, Richard Tatalovich busted early where he flopped top pair with a draw.
I think many of the big names would have gone broke on that hand.
BTW, I told you I was going to be there, but my company called a quick meeting in LV for Thur/Fri and I decided not to make the trip to Reno.
JohnnyD
Anyone know if/when?
Thanks in advance...
A lot has been written about when to put all your stack in preflop vs. advantages to calling and moving in on the flop.
What i am wondering is what guidelines should be considered before the decision as to wehter to push our chips in or wait and gun them on the flop.
Is there a point where we figure to be a favorite over the other players hand that at X% of the time i am the favored and i want all his chips committed?
Obviously there is a point where calling is so devastating to our stacks that all-in is the only logical and accepted choice, this has been discussed in depth.
What has not though is when do we want to commit to a hand preflop that we have good reason to determine we are the favorite in this situation, is there a middle ground?
Examples of what i mean are JJ vs AK where arguably it IS better to wait and see the flop if stacks are equally deep, the other route would be say 88 vs a Very aggressive and loose button raiser.. if we can figure JJ as at a coinflip and the other example 88 at possibly a 65% winner or greater do we want here to commit?
Thanks for all thoughts and comments...
Ray
Each situation needs to be separately evaluated. Here are some very big factors:
-Who acts first postflop? -If you just call, how many chips do you have left compared to the size of the pot? -How likely is the opponent to fold postflop if he misses? How likely is he to call if you don't miss? -Are you ahead or behind preflop? How far? How often will the trailer catch up on the flop? How often will the trailer catch up if both go to the river? -How far are you from the money? What is the discrepancy in prizes between the lowest prize and first? -a million other things
One of the few times when you should almost always just call preflop and then bet the flop is when you're going to be heads-up no matter what you do, and it's going to take most of your money to call. In this case, you just call now so you can bet the flop and MAYBE, sometimes, the opponent will fold even for that relatively small bet. You should do this most of the time that folding isn't the better choice, even if you have AA. If the pot will be 500 once you call, and you can only bet 75 postflop, then even with AA you want the guy to fold.
One of the few times when you should almost always raise preflop is when you have AA, there are a goodly amount of chips left for postflop action, and the opponent can get away from their hand postflop but you know they won't fold if you go all-in now. Let's say you're the big blind and somebody raises to 3x. All others fold, and you have 5x in your stack. If you just call and bet 3x on the flop, the opponent might fold pretty often, but if you raise now, getting 3:1, they're going to call with anything, even a stone-cold bluff. This play will almost always be correct since AA is such a big favorite over any other hand. Once you move down, even to KK, the situation changes dramatically.
Other than that, I can't give you the type of guidelines you're asking for. Answer the questions I posed up top, and ask others that seem appropriate for the situation. Then, you should hopefully know which play is likely the best. Take your time, and don't make hasty decisions.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Amazing, encompasing response, thank you very much Greg.
What i was intending to do was open the gates for discussion, and see if something arose from it..
There was a hand from the tourney at the Taj Mahal few months back (sorry i am forgetting who wrote it up for cardplayer i believe though) where Axo took on KJo preflop and got all of the chips in before the flop which came xxJxA .. the author argued that just calling may have been the better scenario and his all-in move on the flop should have pushed Axo out of the pot..
Beyond that you are rightfully so a big advocate of flat calling in situations and giving yourself 2 shots at winning the pot once committed, which you outlined above, it seems an impossible task and yet if the thought process is correct may vastly improve not only MY game but others...
Again thanks..
Ray
[snip] FossilMan wrote: "Let's say you're the big blind and somebody raises to 3x. All others fold, and you have 5x in your stack. If you just call and bet 3x on the flop, the opponent might fold pretty often." [end snip]
Lets say you had JJ in the BB in the situation you described above and just called the raise what would you do if an Ace or King (or even a Queen I guess) flopped and you dont make a set? Would you still bet 3x on the flop?
The answer probably involves some the factors you mentioned in your original post? Giving it up on the flop when the overcards come means you are still in the tournament, but pathetically shortstacked now, whereas betting allin could get yourself back in contention by winning this decent size pot if your Jacks hold up. Can you give any pointers as to how to play in this spot?
Also, as the original poster mentioned pp8s what would you do with any other medium pair besides Jacks - I guess that would be 7s thru 10s. How would your play be different, if at all, with these pairs?
Thanks for input. By the way your posts are great.
Stevie
The only answer to your questions is to know your opponent. If for reasons beyond your control you don't know them, you'll have to guess based upon the general tells they may have displayed, their demeanor, or whatever other little things are available.
Certainly, if somebody who might be stealing raises, and you have a big hand like JJ, it's likely not a mistake to just go all-in preflop. If you choose not to, then how you play the flop after 1 or more overcards hit is impossible to generalize. With some opponents, if you check they're going to bet no matter what, so you get no read from their play. Others will check their small pairs after this flop, or their unimproved steal attempt. If you don't know them, you just have to guess right or get lucky.
However, if you don't know them, and are pretty sure you won't be able to "outplay" them postflop for this reason, then just pushing all-in preflop may be best. With smaller pairs, I kind of like the all-in bet postflop, and doing it no matter what hits the board. What if the flop does come AKQ to your 77? If you bet, they're going to fold hands like 88, 99, TT, JJ, Q9, K9, and maybe a few others that are beating you. Yes, they'll likely call if they have an A, but they might just fold a bunch of hands you're glad to see fold. Never assume that "terrible" flop is nothing but bad news for you.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
n/t
In Cloutier/McEvoys "Championship No-Limit & Pot-Limit Hold'em" book, Chapter 3, subsection titled "Types of Players" on page 85 the author(s) write: (I hope they dont mind me posting this quote)
"Four different categories of players enter pot-limit hold'em tournaments. [type 1] There are players like Freddy Deeb and Stu Ungar who are super aggressive; they are going to play more hands than the whole table combined would play. They stand raises with hands that a lot of players would fold. They either amass a lot of chips or they're out of the tournament"
What kind of hands are the author(s) referring to? Can anyone tell me what kind of hands Ungar (and Deeb) was playing and in what position? Did anyone here witness them making such plays?
This section of the book is titled "How to win pot-limit hold'em tournaments" but did Ungar play the same way in no-limit tournaments, or did he tighten up more for NL?
I find it fascinating that such a successful player, and one who is acknowledged by many in his day as being perhaps the greatest no-limit poker player in the world, was continually making plays other players wouldnt even dream of.
I'd love to hear more from anybody with more details.
Take care everybody.
Rose
I think what is being discussed is not what these guys were holding and in what position BUT what others THOUGHT they were holding.
Anyone can pley aces under the gun but it takes a special sort of player to play a 56o utg and win the blinds.
I never played with Stu, nor watched him, so this is guesswork.
It is my understanding that Stu would make raises and call raises with a wide variety of hands, potentially any hand in the deck. Whereas most of us fold Q9s for a raise, Stu might often call or reraise.
The only way this can be done profitably is if you can seriously outplay the opposition postflop. If the raiser turns out to have AK, and Stu can tell when the flop missed him (even if Stu doesn't know the guy has AK in particular, as long as Stu knows he missed), Stu can bluff the flop and take down the pot. Supposedly Stu was a master at reading the opposition, and usually knew when he was beat, when he wasn't, and when he could successfullly bluff whether he was beat or not.
There are very few players this good at reading the opposition. In fact, I have heard that Stu was a lifetime loser in NL and PL ring games, because players are usually tougher to bluff (since they can always rebuy) than they are in big tournaments. Bluffing at the right time was one of Stu's greatest strengths.
For the full story, read Nolan Dalla's book (when it comes out, which I don't know).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
in all due respect, at time of his last WSOP win, I read what details that were published, and more than once I thought he made several bad plays but then "sucked out". And I too heard he was loser to ring games...that he made his living on gin rummy...that he could remember EVERY card played. Jim
Don't forget that generally you only get to read about the times he (or any other player of this type) gets caught. You don't hear about the big pots he takes down with a bluff with the worst hand when his opponent folds.
Andy.
A lot of luck went into Stu's tournament wins, of the ones I have watched. This is probably true of everyone that has won a tournament. The 1997 wsop he did not know he was beaten on two key hands (both against the eventual runner up whos name I cannot recall.) The second time, it was for the championship. Stu's A-4 against A-9. Stu pulled a major suck out to hit the wheel and win that one. I personaly thought the runner up outplayed Stu throughout the final table play. The lucky one gets the recognition.
The runner up's name was John Strempf. On the video, they only showed two hands that they played together, the last one for the title. The flop came A35 and John bet out, Stu raised him all in. A8 for John, A4 for Stu. This isn't a bad play for Stu considering that he probably had 7 outs if he didn't already have the best hand.
The other hand Stu raised btf and John called from the big blind. The flop came AKx with one spade. Check, Check. The turn brought another spade to make two spades, John bet out, Stu called. The river completed a spade flush. John bet something like 70 thousand, and Stu called again. K10 of spades for John to make a runner, runner flush, and Stu had Ax.
Peace
Goodie
I'm right there with Greg and Andy.
What about the hand he masterfully played against Ron Stanley? I've played that hand back umpteen times and still amazed every time I see it. Prime example of what Greg was talking about. Knowing your opponent so well it doesn't matter what you have.
Was the final hand such a horrible play? Yes it is obvious Stu made a mistake by not putting his opponent (Bob Stremph) on an Ace. Bob's play during the entire tournament was very "unconventional" as Phil Helmuth described it. He got lucky far more than his share to get heads up with Stu.
You have an ace heads up and you flop an ace. What are the chances of your opponent having one of the two remaining aces on the same hand? Stu gave himself 7 outs if his opponent did have an ace. Four 2's and three 4's. He made a mistake (and far, far fewer than Bob did) and hit one of his outs and you call him a major suckout.
We know better.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
..is his name. He is, or at least at that time was, president of Treasure Island.
He usually plays the bigger buyin evening tourneys at the Orleans.
I once asked him if he was sick of hearing about how great Stu played, considering the suckout on the final hand, and he sort of smiled and said, "Well, those things happen."
FWIW Strzemp hit a one-outer(TT v AA[?] w/a T folded by someone else) at some point during the final table.
Couldn't remember how he spelled his name. Yes I remember that hand when he spiked the case ten against Ron Stanley (Ron had KK not AA). Ron never was the same after that beat. That was at least the 2nd time at the final table that he should have been busted out of the tourney. Remember when he went all in with the J9 of clubs when he flopped a flush draw and a gutter angainst Mel Judah's top 2 pair (Aces and J's)? As far as his comment to the so-called suck-out by Stu on the final hand; John should never ever complain about being sucked out (at least when talking about 1997) because he's the one that did most of the sucking (out).
also let's not forget that Stuey had a substantial chip lead going into the final hand so even had he have lost it he still would have had more chips.
in my opinion his play at that final table was utterly dominant - had he not have got lucky on the final hand i'm sure he would have won anyway
.
As is the case with any legend. the truth disappears and only the acomplishments survive. What you need to understand is the second part of the quote tells the truth of the situation. If stu wasn't catching cards he was out of the tournament early. So we here the he had 7 4 off suit called 40,000 on the flop and caught a five on the turn for his gut shot straight and busted doyle to win a million. stu what a player that guy is a genuis at reading hands.
What we don't think about is the fact that he tried to do the same thing a hundred times and failed each time. Greg even mentioned that he was a loser when it came to ring games. Would a true opponent reading genuis have such a poor success rate at ring games. Greg believes so even though he hints at the true answer in his response to you. Stu didn't know in the ring games that his opponent would not lay his hand down to a bluff. Is that not an intregal part of reading a player?
My point is this only. Our judgment of people is based on the humans ability to forget adversity, our willingess to idolize individuals by making suppositions about their abilites from their results. Ie. Stu ungar never wins a tournament because he never catches that 4 outer. He is just some bum who can't win in ring games.
That is the truth.
Now in answer to your question. the cards are irrelevant because it is a style of play that does not involve starting hand criteria. T.J. has a tendency in his book to be one leveled in his descriptions of thinking while he himself is multi leveled in his actual thinking. So he mentions these super aggressive players, then calssifies himself a super aggresive only at the end of a tournament and then finally tells you how to use aggression against passive players. He misses the essential point that the opening paragraph should lead into. Which is how do you play such players. The truth is in tournaments you should avoid these players like the plague. Poker is about taking advantage of the players who are worse than you. that is T.J.'s point.
Stu Ungar was not a bum he was a guy who had iron balls and could read opponents to a level far above most of us. Can you become him, no that is something that is born into a person. Can you mimic his behavior. yes that is what T.J. does at the end of every tournament he plays. Watch T.J. play when there are three players left sometimes four and you will see excactly what Stu Ungar was like. Heart of the lion.
........Stuey entered 30 big no limit holdem competitions in his life......and won 10 of them
...the closeest thing poker has ever had to a Tiger Woods
.
just wanted to comment on the stu ungar thread. Great stuff! Much food for thought for a beginner like me. Been playing tournaments for a couple of months. SO far, I've won two little ones (made deals at each). The discussion about playing the man/woman is beginning to sink in, but it's harder in a tournament since you dont really have time to get to know the players as in a ring game. CAn you more experienced players give me three or four tips on playing opponenets - forget the cards, what do YOU respond to in the demeanor or mannerisms of the players? The commnets about Ungar remind me of the old saying about Babe Ruth - he hit a lot of homeruns but he also struck out a lot. Is there the kernel of a tournamnet strategy there? SOrry this is a bit scattered it's late. Thanks.
You are absolutely correct. And i point out later that he was in fact a gifted player. My point was simply an issue of perspective on the term genuis and it's specific use as a description of Stu's overall performance. What we must not forget in looking at card playing is that there is a situational factor that comes into play. Ie I think he is bluffing i am go all in and force him to throw away his hand. Oh oh he called me and he has pocket aces. wow i can't beleive my 2 3 off suit one. Am I a Genuis? Your point would be yeah but you haven't one ten majors. No but i am a winner in side games. does this not make me equal to and therefore genuis with Stu. Is it only the amount of money that he won that is his true genuis.
In conclusion. i Know winning tournament players who make bad poker decisions and win anyway. Stu was one of those players in some respects as are many winning big time players. In the movie Cincinati Kid. The statement is made sometimes you have to make the wrong play at the right time.
Is that genuis? Or merely fortune shining down on you? To be genuis is to suggest you can replicate an action most of the time. Stu was only able to do it ten times out of forty in tournaments and not at all in side games. Scientifically speaking that does not suggest genuis.
However, In the world of poker and the analysis of the human mind the factors present at any poker decision are so numerous as to outway a standard imperical conclusion.
In laymans terms Stu ungar could very well have been a genuis. It is up to us to be able to recognize genuis not based solely on results but in fact on ability.
Stu Ungar was a poker great more comparible to a John Daly than a Tiger Woods however.
Just something to think about.
eee p.s. excuse the spelling i was in a hurry
Here is a Stu Ungar Story from a side game at the Super Bowl of Poker in the early 1980's at Lake Tahoe.
The game was a 5 handed 300-600 Holdem game with Doyle Brunson, Bob Stupak, a stranger with a very good and obnoxious drunk act and two others I can't remember.
Stu was is in the BB. Doyle is to his left and makes it 600. Stu calls heads up.
The flop is A Q 2 rainbow. Stu checks and Doyle bets and Stu checkraises. Doyle makes it 3 bets and Stu calls.
The turn brings an 8 offsuit. Stu checks, Doyle bets 600. Stu makes it 1200. Doyle makes it 1800. Stu makes it 2400. Doyle makes it 3000 and Stu calls.
The river is another ace....A Q 2 8 A on the board.
Stu checks. Doyle bets 600, Stu raises to 1200, Doyle raises to 1800, Stu raises to 2400 and Doyle raises to 3000.
At this point Stu begins to curse Doyle and the drunk and finally the dealer who is sitting patiently waiting for Stu to act. After at least a good 30 seconds of the finest selection of profanity that would make a longshoreman blush, Stu turns over his cards for everyone to see - he has A 8. He continues to curse Doyle and the dealer and then proceeds to crumple his two cards into a little ball and fires them at the dealer with them bouncing off the dealer's chest and going on the floor.
At this point the drunk comments "Is that a fold?"
That comment brings another verbal barrage directed at anybody in the vicinity. As the pot is pushed to Doyle, he shows A Q and is rewarded with another verbal barrage from Stu stating in effect that he didn't need to show the ######g hand because he knew Doyle had A Q which is why he thru his ######g A 8 away.
At that point I had to leave the area because I was afraid that I was going to start to LOL and didn't want to incite any further tirades from Stu.
You needed to be there to really appreciate the venom that was unleashed on the people involved. To his credit, Doyle never said a word.
That is play I remember most by Stu Ungar.
EEE is right on point with his comments. Put another way, Stu was a master of counter intuative thinking. Certain people start buying stock only when the stock market hits a new low. it makes sense. Do you want to buy stock when price is high or low. Yet it still takes a lot of intestinal fortitude to buy when everyone else is selling. Stu did not care one wit about conventional strategy except to turn it as a weapon against people who used it. Against three opponents, he knew that they would fold most hands against a raise so he raised. a lot. He was at his best with a big stack so if he got picked off once or twice while getting a read on a player, he was still in the game.
I've read, more than once, that no limit holdem is about playing your opponent, not the cards. stu understood this at a level that few other people could.
ok, so i don't know a whole lot about stu ungar, but what i do know, i have to comment on. to say that he is a moron, or that he was merely a suck-out artist is to greatly undervalue his skill as a player. one could say that he got 'lucky' to win some of his tournaments. one could also look at it and say that there is no way that a guy could last to the final table that many times on luck. luck favors everybody equally. obviously there is a swing in the flow of cards, but over time they even out. ungar was able to read people better than most of his opponents, and that gave him an edge to exploit. but some of the most genius plays made in poker can look like sheer stupidity when you don't understand all the levels involved. say you raise allin preflop with pocket fours and get called by pocket aces. you were bluffing, but got caught, and ran into a super strong hand. the one hand that can stop you like that preflop. were you stupid? not unless preflop bluffs are always stupid. did you make a bad read? sure. is anybody perfect? no. do geniuses excel in their field a great deal more than others, while at the same time not acheiving 100% dominance? yes. do you have to win every time to be a genius? no. do your plays have to make sense to people all the time? no. does it make a difference what your cards are if you attempt to put a player off a hand you think he will fold? no. so does it change whether or not you are a genius if sometimes you get lucky too? no.
For those in L.A., the Commerce $330 buy-in, multiple re-buy (first 3 levels), double optional add-on, limit HE tournament has become a staple of the local tournament scene.
The vast majority of the field consists of low-limit ring players, recreational players, and a combination of novice and wannabe tournament players.
This post's purpose is to question the sanity of the players entering this tournament. Rather than enter this tournament, you would be better off saving the time and frustration and using the money to buy lottery tickets.
Consider these features of last Friday's tournament.
1. It started on a workday at 6:30 PM which means that many of the players have already worked a full day before the tournament begins.
2. It had 354 entrants, 418 rebuys, and a prize pool of $231,600.
3. It typically takes until 1AM to narrow the field to the last 3 tables and, if no deal is cut, it will take until 2-4AM to determine a winner.
3. The field is contains numerous world class tournament players and WSOP winners. Last Fridays winners were:
1. Sam Sanusi (West Covina, CA) $85,692 2 Jimmy Lee (Downey, CA) $44,004 3 Joe Lim (El Monte, CA) $22,002 4 Chris "Jesus" Ferguson (Pacific Palisades, CA) $13,985 5 Scott Nguyen (Anaheim, CA) $10,422 6 Korai Khodouzadeh (Glendale, CA) $8,106 7 Raymond Bitar (Glendora, CA) $5,790 8 John Phan (Long Beach, CA) $4,632 9 Joye Swan (Studio City, CA) $3,706 10 Minh Nguyen (Bell Gardens,CA) $2,779 11 "Cowboy" Wolford Las Vegas, NV $2,779 12 Joe Wynn (Winnetka, CA) $2,779 13 John Cardwell (Northridge, CA) $2,316 14 Dennis Horton (Pahrump, NV) $2,316 15 Clarence Cole (Los Angeles, CA) $2,316 16 Ken Goldstein (Los Angeles, CA) $1,852 17 Randy Holland (Waveland, MS) $1,852 18 Jim Theisen (Des Moines, Iowa) $1,852 19 Leithan Langer (Hood River, Oregon) $1,390 20 Mai Hung (Bell Gardens, CA) $1,390 21 Jack Gevshenian (Burbank, CA) $1,390 22 Louis Layineta (Los Angeles, CA) $1,390 23 Sirous Baghchedhsaraie (Marina Del Rey, CA) $1,390 24 Xiao Deng (Edmonton, Alberta) $1,390 25 John Juanda (Alhambra, CA) $1,390 26 David Borchert (Bridgewater, NJ) $1,390 27 Hon Le (Bell Gardens, CA) $1,390
Consider four classes of players with varying tournament skills defined by their probablility of reaching the final 3 tables.
Bad: 1 time in 50 Average: 1 time in 20 Good: 1 time in 15 Excellent: 1 time in 10 World Class: 1 time in 5
It costs the typical player $684.24 to play the tournament ($330 entry + 1.18 rebuys).
Given their chances of reaching the final 3 tables, the expected cost of getting to the last 3 tables for each class of player is:
Bad: $34,1212 Average: $13,684.80 Good: $10,263.60 Excellent: $6842.40 World Class: $3421.20
These numbers are actually on the low side, because many of the players who reached the final three tables probably paid more than $684.24 to get there. Those making multiple rebuys and getting the optional add-on are more likely to survive to the last 3 tables.
Once a player has reached the final 3 tables, they must still get to the final table and/or finish in the top 4 or 5 to earn back the money that it took to get to the last 3 tables.
Now look at the field.
What is the bad, average, good, or even excellent players chance of beating this field--especially at the later stages when the play is short handed, the blinds are high, and everyone is short stacked?
What are the chances that you are going to beat a final table composed of Chris "Jesus" Ferguson, Scott Nguyen, Joe Wynn, Sirous Baghchedhsaraie, John Juanda, Minh Nguyen, etc.?
What are the chances that these players are going to offer you a "fair deal" if you do make it to the final 4 or 5 players?
I understand why the big names entered this tournament. 250+ idiotic players have each contributed $684.24 to a prize pool which they can now play for.
What I have a hard time comprehending is why those 250+ bad, average, and good players entered the tournament.
Surely, their E.V. would be larger in a regular ring game.
Note: I did not play in this tournament. My thoughts were spurred by conversations with three players. Two play low limit HE with bankrolls in the $2-3K range and one player visiting L.A. who wanted to play in a tournament and had a trip bankroll of $1.5 K.
Satellite Tourny...
6 players + myself 200/400 blinds no ante
I am in SB with A7o ($2,475)
Play is folded to button who raises $800.
I believe that there is a 65% chance he's going for the blinds with a weakish hand. If he's not and has a medium pair/high pair, then I can still suck out with my Ace. My problem is if he has an Ace with a better kicker, which is very likely if he in fact has an Ace.
I decide that if he's trying to steal the blinds, then a re-raise may force him to fold now, and will force the BB out of the hand (unless he's real strong). I re-raise $1000 bucks (which leaves me wih $475).
The BB folds and the button calls.
The flop goes 45T
I move all-in and the button calls. I feel trapped at this point, and believe I'm probably beaten with a pocket pair or AJ+, but I move all-in regardless.
He shows 23s
I have only 3 outs and he has 14.
Turn: 2 River: Ace
I lose...
Looking back, I think a quick all-in move pre-flop would have gotten the button to fold. I was right that he had a weakish hand, but gave him around 3.5 -1 to call my re-raise.
your thoughts???
since he called that raise, likely he would have also called all in bet...same result. How could he call? I'll never know!----play not bad (his was)--results just unfortunate, Jim
Certainly if you feel he is on a pure steal it makes sense to either go all-in or just call and bet the flop. Raising 1000 leaves you with only 475 so your opponent is going to call the flop bet almost always.
But your outs are wrong. He has 3 aces, 3 2's, 3 3's and 4 6's. That makes 13. You don't have 3 outs. You have all other cards. You are winning and don't need any improvement.
Ken Poklitar
You said you had 2475 (before posting the blind), how much did your opponent have?
JohnnyD
Roughly the same as me.
This hand doesn't make much sense. You need to give us an idea of your chip position in relation to the other players, and what do you mean by having three outs compared to his 14?
There was one player who had a nice chip advantage over everyone else ( $4,300+), and the rest of us were comparable in chips.
A7u vs 23s
Flop: 45T
I figure that I have a slight advantage to win (56%). I can win if he doesn't improve, however I only have 3 ways to make my hand (3 sevens), while he had 13 outs ( 4 two's, 3 four's, 3 fives, and 3 aces).
... I just bought your book, Blackjack Essays, today.
I'm all-in or fold. Knowing his chip count would be an intregal part of my decision. If I thought he was on a steal I would go all-in. You said OTF you had 3 outs. I beg to differ with you but you were in the lead and had the whole deck minus his 13 or 14 outs! I would have loved it but still prayed for anything but babies or an ace. Depending upon his chip count, unless he had a very large stack it would have been very difficult for him to call you had you gone all-in. And even if he did he's gonna be a dog to your A7. Hope this helps.
Gene (holdemdude)
Doubt whether an all-in move would have made him fold. After you call his raise there is 600 blinds + his 1400 + your 1200 = 3200 in the pot. You have 1500 left to bet. He's getting 3-1 plus even if you go all-in.
An all-in move is nonetheless correct if you're going to play just to discourage the BB as much as possible. You were front but he drew out, bad luck.
Note that in a satellite there is no merit in playing survival poker. No one asked, but for my money there is little if anything wrong with the button's play of this hand, though I suspect some might disagree :-)
Andy.
I don't disagree with the button's call of the reraise, given the pot odds he was getting. I do disagree with his initial steal-raise (unless he knew they were pretty likely to fold anything but top hands). Given the thinking of our poster, the button either didn't know this, or he incorrectly knew it.
I also agree that the poster should have gone all-in with his reraise, or folded. Halfway measures are frequently the worst choices in poker.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks, that is what I figured afterwards. I truly believe that a quick all in, would have gotten him to fold.
Andy says "Note that in a satellite there is no merit in playing survival poker."
In general you're correct, but I don't think I've ever been in a satellite where it got down to the final three where somebody wasn't talking about a deal or at least a save. I'm never the one to bring it up, but it always comes up. Some players go into a state of panic they want a deal so bad.
JohnnyD
Yes indeed, but if you only have one chip when you get down to three-handed, then you're not going to get much of a deal :-). In a winner-take-all satellite, having 10% of the chips 3-handed isn't any better than having 10% of the chips 6-handed.
Andy.
Theoretically, 10% of the chips 6-handed is worth no more than it is 3-handed. However, I have seen players agree to make saves when 3-handed where everybody saves the same amount, even though there is a big chip discrepancy.
How about this deal I made once. It was heads-up, and we had just busted the third player. The guy turns to me and says "You wanta chop this up?" I say yes. He has a chip lead of at least 60:40. We're playing for 5 lammers of $100 each, plus $50 cash. He offers a split where one of us gets 3 lammers, and the other gets 2 lammers plus the cash. I'm thinking $250, what a deal for me. He then says "So, which one do you want, the more lammers or the cash?"
I quickly accepted the 3 lammers.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I am the first to concede that theory and practice can be very different on occasion :-).
Andy.
I am trying to organise a pot limit holdem tournament for our local club. Probably just an 8-10 player affair at first.
Start blinds would be $5/10 and would increase at set time intervals. A single rebuy would be allowed when a player is to the felt, if during the first 90 minutes.
Anyway with blinds of that size, what size starting stacks should i use, and hoe should the blinds increase? (i suggested doubling every 45 minutes)
suggestions: 910 min stacks 300, double that would be more than twice as good (2) do not make them go broke before rebuy--try when stack is less than 100 (3)continous doubling of blinds not good--need to go slower later--consider
5- 10 30 min
10-20 30 min
20-40 30 min
30-60 45 min
50-100 45 "
75-150 45 "
100-200 45 "....and continue with 50% increase
note that with 10 players & 300 stacks=3000 in play, then when blinds are at 100-200 level, that is 105 of total in play, etc--consider this ratio.
BUT, important question is how quickly do you think it should end??--if length is a problem, then doubling may be necessary...???another way to bring to an end sooner, is to chang from P/L to N/L at some point...perhaps when rebuys end....??
hope I have said enough to add to you confusion (ha) Jim
earlier this morning visited friend who told of recent tournament he was in...had a couple of unusual features...so will pass on to you the full story. there were 14 players, so divided into 2 equal tables till down to ten...$500 buy in got $500 in chips thus chip value was actual...when it got down to final three players, tournament just stopped, players cashed in their chips????the part I thought interesting was blinds and time periods BOTH increased at the same time, every time, starting with 5&10 for 30 min, increase was 30% rounded up to nearest 5...
he reported that THOSE players had used for some time, and liked it. for what it's worth Jim
Thanks a lot Jim. I'll put something together for this weekend thanks to your help.
Of course this is the hand that got me busted last night. I'm wondering about it now because I played it a little differently than I normally would...
PLHE tournament, 11 players left, 9 paid but most of the money is in the top four or five spots. 75000 chips in play or thereabouts, blinds 700-700.
I am the first blind (off the button) and have AKo. Three players call - very unusual, things have been quite cozy lately with no limpers and a preflop raise taking it. Everyone has about the same, 7000 or so, except the last caller who is the chip leader with at least 20k, and has been very aggressive.
Here's the decision I'm wondering about: I decided not to raise. I don't want to get into a 50-50 situation against a smaller pair, and the chances that one of the limpers has something like that seem high. I decided to see the flop and try to hit an A or K before committing.
What do you think of that? Should I have raised? Bear in mind that a pot-sized raise would be 50% of my stack.
Anyway, flop is KTx with two spades. Apart from a possible pair of tens or xs I think I'm probably good and bet the pot. All fold to chip leader who raises me all in; about 3000 more in a pot of 12000.
I call: is this an automatic call? I think so.
Annoyingly for me I have completely failed to avoid a 50-50: he has QJ of spades, so is about 51-49 favourite, and hits an ace on the river.
I was very annoyed to go out two out of the money; but I have been consoling myself with the thought that had I won, I would have been chip leader with 20% of the chips and in strong contention for a good payout.
On the other hand, perhaps I should be avoiding a big confrontation at this stage?
What would you more experienced tournament players do here?
Cheers,
Guy.
Guy,
I think you should probably have raised pre-flop, yes. Does depend on who has called, but the first caller or two are the ones to worry about, the later caller(s) may well be anticipating an unraised pot. Taking the flop five-handed means that even if you flop top pair you could still be losing, or up against a good draw as was the case here. Aggressive play really pays in this situation especially with a hand as strong as AK.
"I was very annoyed to go out two out of the money". Don't sweat it. I finish 10th, 11th much more often than I finish 7th, 8th, 9th. The lower place payouts are so small they're not worth bothering about. Take advantage of the other players who are just trying to survive at this stage and you will win more money, believe me.
Andy.
Andy is so right. In these small tournaments here at Fort McDowell, I see people hanging on and folding to a big pot with only a chip or two left so they can finish one position higher. And one position higher won't pay the buy-in for the next tournament. In these small tournaments, I look at they payout board and usually nothing excites me except 1st and maybe 2nd. I'm often walking away in 13th, 12th or 11th place, but I've probably got more 1st and 2nd this year than anyone else in that tournament.
JohnnyD
looks like th Card Gods had decided that was the time for you to be eliminated!! yes, a preflop raise may have been best play, but my guess is that your aggressive chip leader would have called anyway...what a perfect flop for him...9 spades and 6 straight cards gives him 15 outs twice, so call it 30 outs, WOW better luck next time Jim
What I want to know is, how likely is it that the first limper could be slowplaying AA or KK, and how likely is it that a limper with a small pair would call your pot-sized raise for half their chips? Answer these, and I think you'll know whether you should have raised preflop or not.
Another key point here is if you flop 1 pair only, how often will you get paid off by a worse hand (and one that has no significant outs), and how often will you only get action if beat?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for your very swift replies!
I think you're all right and that I should have raised before the flop. The chip leader may well have called because he "had the needle" with me as they say; but maybe not, which would have been fine. Preflop it's most unlikely that anyone is slowplaying a big hand in this game, I think, so with hindsight the raise is quite likely to win it there and then.
Funny thing: I'm quite happy making a raise with rubbish like Q9s if three people have already passed, but not happy raising with AK with four players in.
In conclusion: I made a right mess of it. Once that flop falls, all my chips are going in and I'm getting beat. It somehow feels better to know I got knocked out by my own deeds than by bad luck.
(He only had 14 outs though: I was holding an ace!)
Guy.
I am past the break in a no limit H.E. tourney. No more re-buys. Blinds are 200.00-400.00. I have 1600.00 left. I have been waiting all day for a playable hand, have stolen blinds three times with nothing.
I get A-K in third position, folded to me. At this point I feel I need chips, not just the blinds. I raise to 800.00 and get two callers. I bet all in on a flop of Axx, all hearts. BB calls all in. I make As&Ks by the river, only to find he flopped a heart flush with Q-9. Now says he would not have called an all in bet pre-flop.
Whenever I go all in pre-flop, a worse hand calls and catches up by the river, and says if I only raised a little pre-flop, and then came all in on the flop he would have to fold. Whenever I raise a little and let someone in, they hit the flop and then say I should have gone all in pre-flop and they could not have called.
Help.
Your raise is too small. You're practically begging for at least the big blind to call, let alone any others. Winning just the blinds is fine here, even with AK, as doing so increases your stack by over 35%.
My standard NL/PL raise is 3x the big blind. If it takes over half my stack to do this, I go all-in (or put in as much as possible in PL). There are certainly reasons to vary from this pattern, but it is a good place to start until you feel confident that you're good at recognizing the exceptions.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fossilman,
Does that 3x BB raise apply if there are limpers ahead of you? How do limpers change your strategy?
Jon I.
I know for me I generally increase the raise based on the number of limpers. So with 1 limper I might start at 4xBB and 2 limpers I might go to 5xBB. Again this is just a general rule and It depends on the cards and who is limping.
Ken Poklitar
Yes, the more limpers, then generally the more I raise. But, I also am a lot less likely to raise at all if there are limpers. When I do raise with a lot of limpers already in, then most often I have a premium hand, and want to build a pot or win now, either one being good. Or, I have a good hand that I'd prefer to play heads-up, and think a raise will achieve that. Or, everyone has lots of money relative to the blinds, and I just want to build a big pot (I've made raises like this with AKs, 55, and many other hands that can flop big).
Who the limpers are matters a lot also. If I know the first limper would never limp with AA, then I can raise to try and win it now much more freely than I otherwise would. If that players likes to slowplay AA, I need to be much more cautious.
If you prefer, instead of thinking 3x, think "pot". Raise the pot every time, or something close to that amount, and you'll be doing fine with respect to your standard raise amount. Any more, and you're losing value as you're risking more to steal than you need to. Any less, and you get called or reraised too often for your steals to be profitable. Of course, often you aren't just stealing, but if you don't play your steals similar to your big hands, good players will soon figure out which is which.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Top pair/top kicker is a good hand in hold'em, but it's far from the Greek Nuts, and can get you into trouble in no-limit.
As a general rule, people like to go all-in when they don't want to get called. This means bluffs, and good hands that aren't likely to improve. So instead of going all-in when you flop an Ace with AK in your hand, just check. Give your opponent a chance to bluff at the pot and call him down. If your opponent has the nuts, he usually wont bet all-in on the flop. He'll try to string you along and go all-in on the river. That gives you a chance to fold your good, but beaten, pair of aces.
People often say it's always better to bet or raise than call, because you can win two ways: either uncontested or by showing down the best hand. Well, there's something to be said for check-calling with top pair/top kicker in no'limit: you can win three ways: 1. against a bluff 2. against a semi-bluff that doesn't get there and 3. against a worse pair. Plus you have a chance to get away from it if it looks like you are beat.
Just a suggestion.
Craig H
PS I would have raised all-in preflop in your situation.
I can't agree that check/calling with top pair best kicker is a good general rule in No Limit.
I will say that more players in the hand the less likely that top pair best kicker will win. Headsup hitting the flop with AK is a monster. Against 6 callers it is probably the best but one would need to be careful based on how the betting has gone.
Ken Poklitar
I have to agree with ohKanada that check/call is generally not the best strategy in no-limit. What happens when your opponent isn't bluffing or his semi-bluff gets there, and you can't read him well enough to figure that out? By check/calling, you never even give yourself the chance to have your opponent lay down, and you keep giving your opponent more cards to catch or even better his hand. Granted, they aren't free cards, but since your opponent leads into you and you just call, he's paying the price he wants to pay for them.
Personally, I'd consider checking the flop like Craig suggests, but I'd reraise any flop bet fired at me to see where I am in the hand. If my opponent calls or raises, I probably shut down or fold, respectively. If he just calls, the turn is likely to go check-check, and perhaps the river too, so I can show down top pair-top kicker as cheaply as possible.
Mick, in your case, the point is moot since you don't have the chips for such plays. I concur with all that you have to raise all-in before the flop.
Thanks to all.
Its just that I have been in this situation before, where I did go all in, a semi desperate call is made. Now he gets to go to the river, where I get beat.
If I did it with just a raise and kept some chips back, I fire at any flop and he then would have had to lay his hand down. Now I try it this way, and it's wrong for the situation that evolved. I guess I just need to do it the correct way, (all in in this situation) and let the cards fall where they may.
There are times when it is worthwhile to hold back some chips, and then bet the flop. However, you need to be able to make a raise that's big enough to get them out now, and you need to know the opponent. Somebody like me, if you raise the pot, and then can only bet something like 25-50% of the pot after the flop, I'm gonna call with pretty much anything (anything that was good enough to call the preflop raise, that is). Against other opponents, they will call with lots of hands preflop, but then fold if they don't flop a pair or a good draw.
There is no good rule here, other than know the opponent as much as you can.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Just got Stat King in the mail yesterday and want to start using it. One thing I am curious about is whether or not to mix my tournament entries and live sessions. My first assumption was to keep them separate because I did not think that an hourly rate made much difference in regards to tournaments, it was my ROI that I cared most about. Unfortunately, Stat King does not have a special tourney sheet so you must enter hours played for any session.
A fellow player told me he mixes his live and tourney sessions together. What do people here do? Curious about reasoning especially.
I am new to keeping complete records and want to get off to a good start.
Thanks as always,
KJS
I don't know stat king, but is there a way to separate different forms of poker? I mean, can you track stud separate from HE, and 5-10 separate from 10-20? If you can, then just put tourneys into their own category, along with hours, and get a $/hour figure for tourney play, as well as a $/hour figure for all poker put together.
If stat king can't track each type of poker separately, then it probably wasn't worth paying for.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have never kept hours as one of my stats that I track for tournies although it probably is useful.
I keep # entries, finish, buy-in, rebuy, amount won, game and type of tourney.
Ken Poklitar
I carry a notebook with me whenever I am in the Casino or playing on line. I keep detailed records with regard to time played, game played, etc., etc.
I then transfer the information to an Excel spread sheet where I compute detailed statistics regarding hourly rates, by type of game, time of day and so forth. This has helped me to focus on the most profitable games for me.
I keep tournament statistics totally separate, since hourly rates are meaningless for tournament play. There I am more concerned about total return and win rates.
As far as purchasing a canned program is concerned, I don't think there is a program out there that can provide me with the detail that I desire.
Phantom wrote: "hourly rates are meaningless for tournament play."
Why do you think this? If I were a full-time pro, I would really want to know this. Just like I need to choose whether to play in that 15-30 or that 20-40 game, I need to choose whether to play in that tourney, or that 20-40 game. The amount I earn per hour in each game should be a factor in my choice, right?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
A friend and I are having a disagreement, so I'm posting to get other opinions.
I was playing in a $10 Texas Hold'Em tournament the other day at ParadisePoker.com. We had just started playing so, for the most part, everyone at the table is within about $100, up or down, of the starting amount of chips, $800. I had exactly $800. 10 hands per each level, and then the limits double. In general in these tournaments, 3-5 players see each flop, and this tournament was no different. It's the 4th hand at the second level (blinds are $15-$25, limit is $25-$50), and I pick up A-A on the button. Before it was my turn to act, there was a call, raise, and then 3 more cold-calls of the raise. My opinion at the time was that both blinds would probably call too (the blinds usually do in the early stages of these tournaments, even facing a raise), and the original caller may call the raise as well. This turned out to be true (all 3 players to my left called), so 7 players saw a raised flop.
My decision was to muck my Aces pre-flop. The hand won me nothing and cost me nothing. My friend thinks I'm out of my mind for mucking the pre-flop holy grail, but I think it's the correct play against that many callers. I understand that I'm a HUGE favorite against virtually every opponent individually, and since my pre-flop hand can't get any better, it must be the group favorite to win that pot. But, my contention is that I'm nowhere near a favorite to actually take down that pot (that is, the rest of the table COMBINED is a heavy favorite against me).
I figured with the limits where they were and the huge pot-odds offered on the flop, quite a few pre-flop callers would remain to the end if they caught any part of the flop. With 7 callers before the flop, I also figured I was drawing dead (presumably one or both of the remaining aces were in the hand(s) of those calling pre-flop). So my best chances of winning are (1) a four-flush on the board in the same suit as either of my aces, (2) K-Q-J-10-x on the board to make me the nut straight (and probably split a pot 2 or 3 ways), or (3) my aces hold up (nobody makes 2 pair, trips, or better).
Interested to see what you all think. Conserve chips and live to fight another battle where your chances of winning are better because there are fewer competitors? Or damn the torpedoes...pocket Aces has to get involved pre-flop no matter what?
Raise.
You have the best starting hand in hold'em. Don't play scared and fold. I agree with your friend. One only gets so many good hands and with the blinds raising every 10 hands you need to take advantage of your chances. You are correct that against 6 or 7 other players that you are no longer a 50% favorite to win the hand but you are individually the big favorite.
I was in a paradise tourney a few weeks back where it was capped to me when it reached me. I was quite happy to win a monster pot with AA against 5 or 6 other players.
Ken Poklitar
Playing this way in a limit tourney where chip accumulation is key, makes this one of the worst plays I have ever seen. Your friend is right.
I would play the Aces.
But my question is, if that many people see the flop every time, then what hand would you consider playable? Are you just going to wait for an unraised pot and play limp hands? Or maybe just your big blind if nobody raises.
The Paradise tournaments (actually they're really like a one table satellite) are limit. I can't see any case to fold AA preflop early in a limit tournament.
JohnnyD
JohnnyD, your question is my point. I think Aces are extremely playable (obviously), but not mindlessly. Just as with 9-9 or Q-J suited, you pick your spots. If the very next hand were passed around to me in the cut-off, I'm probably raising with just about anything. I'm certainly not saying "well, I just folded A-A, so I guess that logically means I must also throw away this K-10 off." That's stupid.
In my example, I would have made 8 players seeing that flop if I had called. Generally 3-5 players see each flop at paradisepoker in the early stages. As the tournament goes longer, that number comes down further for 2 reasons...(1) people go broke and leave the table and (2) the blinds go up considerably forcing you to reconsider playing for a large percentage of your stack if you would have to get involved with a non-premium hand. In short, there's more opportunity for outplaying someone later and less "I sure hope these big cards hold up" going on.
True or false: Sometimes it is correct to raise with 7-2 offsuit.
Any decent card player knows this is true. Why then is it so hard to say that it also should be true that it sometime correct to fold A-A?
What you are missing is the fact that just the fact that you have a pair and the pot is laying you 7:1 is enough reason to call. The odds of flopping a set is 9:1 and you are guaranteed to win at least 2 more bets when you do. Throw in the fact that your set cannot be beat by another set and your AA can win unimproved (yes, even against 7 people), and you have position and you can see why you must call in this situation. Even if you made a list of the situations where AA is a mathematically loser I don't think this would be one, the odds are just too good. Wouldn't you even call with 66? I would. I think you are basing your analysis on the wrong statistic (AA doesn't do well mulitway, rather than the odds of flopping a set).
The points such as "if you don't call now when do you call" are off the cuff but very important. If you do not plan on playing any hand multiway early in the tournament you are giving up a lot. You cannot assume that better chances will arrive and not play when you have an edge. AA pre-flop is one of those conditions.
It is certainly correct to fold AA after the flop in HE. It is never correct to do so pre-flop. I consider that to be one of the few ironclad rules in the game.
KJS
TJ advocates a fold here in his book also(a similar spot, not the exact. No one needs to know you folded aces. Wait for a better spot. As it is a tourney, you can't go back in your pocket. I think Mark's play is reasonable. I am not sure I would have the stones (sense?) to lay it down, but I think it is a logical play.
Sorry-I thought this was a N/L post. Disregard me post-unless someone wants to comment on N/L.
Mark: I don't think there are many decisons in poker that are 'right' or 'wrong.' I think they really fall on a continum. Personally, I think your decision falls on the 'wrong' side of the continum but, given the situation, not as 'wrong' as folding aces might usually be.
I think what you need to consider in this example is 'how' to play the aces. For many (most?) players, aces is an automatic raise in every situation. Given this situation, however, a better approach might have been to approach the aces like you might a middle pair in a large unraised flop. Ie like a drawing hand. The real decision in this hand would have probably been after the flop. With any kind of cooridinated board, a fold would have probably been in order. I think there are two key points here that need to be re-emphasized also. You had position. The value of position is, imho, magnified post flop on hands like this. Two, with 7 callers in a raised pot, you are getting odds to draw to just about anything.
The absurdness of your play becomes obvious when you realize that since you wont play aces in this circumstance, you would never play any hand in this circumstance. It would be hard to argue that it is never correct to play in a multiway pot on the button in a tournament. This is, essentially, what you are saying.
Particularly in limit tournaments, it is quite unsound to ignore the fact that you are getting a 7:1 price on a hand in which you are no worse than a 3 or 4:1 dog to win against the field.
Craig H
Mark, I think this may be one of those times when a player outsmarts himself---Next timejust follow all the good advice and call. lol Jim
I would say reraise, not just call. It builds a bigger pot when you hav the best of it, and might even thin the field.
Well, I disagree with you and with john b. , this does not just fall on the wrong side, this is CLEARLY WRONG! Folding aces preflop in a limit HE tourney is wrong. In a Paradise tourney that, like JohnnyD said, plays like a satellite (except they pay top 3), it is a clear mistake.
So what if the hand will only win a third of the time?
So what if you are an underdog to the field ?
What the heck do you want? to win smaller pots with less effort, that's not the way to do it.
The point is, when you do win you will get a bundle. You are getting the best possible situation, winning a huge pot with the best possible hand. Satellites are all about pushing edges (well, not just that...), you have a very good edge here, push it! That does not mean folding, that does not mean calling, that means RAISING. Especially at this stage of the tournament, where loosing some chips will not get you into deep trouble since the blinds are small compared to the stacks.
Failure to take advantage of these situations will make it very difficult for anyone to be a consistant tournament player.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
First, this was mentioned in one of the other posts, but is there any hand that you would play in this spot?
Second, you said that you thought the blinds would come in and the early limper. Do you think they would come in if you re-raised? I bet you would at least lose one of the three reducing the field and increasing your chances of winning.
Third, do you have little faith in your ability to fold Aces post-flop? This still wouldn't make the fold correct, but are you scared that you will go to far with the hand?
Even if the re-raise wouldn't get rid of anybody and you tend to go to far with Aces post-flop, the fold still would not be correct. It is never correct to fold the current nuts in Hold em, no matter what you think the chances are that you will be outdrawn.
You have the nuts, how could you possibly play this hand any other way but to re-raise?
Peace
Goodie
"It is never correct to fold the current nuts in Hold-Em". Maybe, maybe not. I haven't played much limit Hold-Em but there is one hand that sticks in my mind. I had 67 (or something, the exact ranks aren't important) and the flop came 589 with two hearts. I have no hearts. There is a massive 4-handed raising war on the flop. When the dust settles, the flush doesn't come in, the board doesn't pair, everyone turns them over. One guy has the King flush draw, one guy has flopped a set of nines and the third guy, who is a real rock, has 67 of hearts ! He was freerolling on me but we split the pot.
I hadn't played much at the time and didn't consider folding for a moment, but now ... Hell, I'd probably still play it. All the same, if you were up against three rocks and you had a good read - I don't know. Never say never, that's all.
Except never fold Aces pre-flop in the early stages of a tournament I suppose. And virtually never at any other time.
Andy.
Here are some numbers for you.
I just ran a quick sim of AA vs. 6 other non-duplicated pocket pairs, and AA won over 31% of the time. In reality, I think this percentage would actually be a little higher, closer to 33-35%, but I can't be sure.
So, let's use 30%. If you reraise preflop (which is what you should do), you're getting in 3 bets each against 6 players (I'm assuming you get 6 for this post, you can do the math for other numbers). So, you're investing 3 bets to win an average of 6.3 bets (30% times 21 total bets). That's an immediate profit of 3.3 bets. If you were to simply call to the river every time, no matter what flopped, you'd make a profit here. Yes, a highly variable one, but a profit nonetheless. If you played a little better, and bet or raised when you flopped a set or better, you'd make more. If you did fold only when it was pretty obvious you must be beat and maybe drawing dead (like the board was paired or a flush or straight was looking likely, AND there were multiple bets/raises into you), you'd again make a little more.
In other words, with AA in a limit game, you have to almost completely screw things up postflop to turn the hand into a long-term loser. Do you think you can avoid playing the hand completely terribly every time postflop? If so, then raise now.
I just did another quick sim. Your AA vs. AKs, AJs, QQ, TT, 88, and 66. So, four pairs to catch any of 8 outs to make a set against you, both of your As dead, and both other suits against you for flushes. AA still wins almost 22% of the time. This is about 50% more often than an "average" hand would win with 7 players going to the river. Nowhere near as good as 31%, but still well above average for the situation.
Someone else mentioned that you're out-thinking yourself, and I agree with them. You also mentioned raising with 72o, and if that might be correct on occasion, then why can't it sometimes be correct to fold AA preflop. It's true that there are no absolutes in poker. However, early in a tournament, still far from the money, I cannot imagine even 1 scenario where folding AA preflop is correct. NOT a single scenario. Try to come up with one to convince me if you like. Even if you succeed, I'll bet that the scenario is so contrived that it is simpley not worth spending your time considering it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I hope you didn't bet too much with your friend.
;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Lots of drivel from most of you, telling me all kinds of things everybody already knows, but this post was exactly what I was looking for. Thank you, Greg, for running the simulation, especially the second one showing how A-A fares when it is drawing dead. With 7 opponents pre-flop, this best simulates the position where I felt I was. And I'm convinced...the experiment clearly shows that playing the hand is in order, and probably for a re-raise.
Many of you have commented about how A-A is the pre-flop nuts so it has to be played, and many want to know what hand I would consider playing in that situation. Craig H., who happens to be my buddy that I had the original disagreement with, even tries to argue that if I won't play Aces, it is logical that I won't play any hand in that situation, which clearly would be incorrect. Sounds like it should make sense, but it doesn't.
I personally like starting hands that have a good chance of developing into the nuts (or real close to the nuts), or the nut draw on the flop. Don't we all? The cool thing about Hold'em is all hands can potentially be the stone cold nuts on the flop. Even 7-2off is Greek with a flop of 7-7-7 or 2-2-2. Believe it or not, I know A-A is the nuts before the flop. But if it is drawing dead (which is a reasonable assumption, I believe, with 7 pre-flop opponents), then it is physically impossible for me to still have the nuts on the flop. Everybody with me on that one? There isn't one flop that could come where I still hold the stone cold nuts. For those of you giving me the odds of flopping my set and explaining how my pot-odds of 7:1 justifed a call or raise, calculate the odds of flopping a set of aces if there are no aces left to come. They're very very very large against. 6-6 has a much better chance of flopping a set in that situation than A-A does, because, with 7 opponents, it's much more likely that 6's still exist in the deck than do Aces. So, what hand would I like to play in that situation? Probably AKs would be my ideal choice. Gives a crack at top pair/top kicker, the nut flush or nut flush draw on the flop, and the nut straight or the nut straight draw on the flop. Greg, how did AKs fare in the simulation you ran where A-A won 22% of the time? I'd also be curious to know how it does if it's not up against A-A to begin with, so if you could replace the A-A with another solid holding and run the sim, I'd really appreciate it.
So 13 people have responded to your post. 13 of 13 agree that you were wrong. And you get on your high horse and say that our responses are drivel?
Sorry for responding.
Ken "Drivel" Poklitar
Easy, bro. Don't get so defensive. No high-horse here at all...I admitted my play was wrong in the first paragraph of my last post after Greg's simulation confirmed it. My point is that most of the posts before Greg's just told me I have the best starting hand in hold'em so I have to play it. I know I have the best starting hand. Ultimately, my question was, "under the circumstances I described, are you sure it's correct to play it?" Tiger Woods is the greatest golfer in the world, but does that mean I should bet on him at all costs at any odds? I don't think so. So too I was hypothesizing that A-A may not ALWAYS be profitable, especially in the context of a tournament where you can't rebuy when you're out of chips. However, Greg's post confirmed that A-A against many opponents with good holdings can be a very profitable play and not too expensive if the flop looks too dangerous.
And yes, Goodie, I think at least one and probably both of the blinds would have stood a re-raise. I'm 99% certain all callers would have stood a re-raise. Pot was laying some huge odds to them by the time they had to act. In the actual hand when I folded, both the small and big blind stood the single raise, so I think they would have stayed for 3 bets.
"Lots of drivel from most of you, telling me all kinds of things everybody already knows"
If you don't want people to get defensive try not to be rude to everyone that responded to your original post. Simply ignore the posts that don't help you or ask more questions to get more information.
Here is another simulation to show you the power of AA:
AsAc - 21.65%
AhKh - 12.13%
AdQd - 12.25%
JsJc - 16.23%
9s8s - 11.43%
6s6c - 14.40%
3s3c - 11.92%
So with all other aces out plus many of the flush cards out for the aces suits, aces still wins over 20% of the time. To me that is about a worse case situation.
Ken Poklitar
Interesting, Ken. Thanks. But damnit, as I look at those statistics I get right back to my original feeling of folding pocket Aces in this situation in a tournament may be correct. Note, I'm not talking about any live ring game. For cold hard cash, pressing slight advantages pays off big-time in the long run. And with A-A, even against a well-armed large field, the advantage is much more than slight...you MUST play, and for a re-raise. I'm totally with you there. But in a tournament where chips are so precious and you can't rebuy, is it worth paying to take A-A drawing dead to the flop? It wins in your's and Greg's simulation only 21% of the time if all hands go to the river. Of course, you can get away from it if the flop is dangerous, and by skillfully playing A-A (betting/raising to make chasing hands fold), you should be able to up that percentage significantly (6 or 7 hands should never go to the river), but at best maybe it jumps up to 40-50% once the flop comes (agree?). And as "eee" pointed out in his post, it is quite possible to get drawn out on on the end, even though it looked like you were winning the entire time. In this case, losing with the hand can severly cripple your tournament chances.
I don't know...TJ Cloutier says that in tournaments you want to avoid 50-50 situations like the plague (if possible). Usually he is talking about taking a pair vs. two overcards (or vice versa) heads-up. But if A-A is less than a 50-50 shot against a 7 opponent field, shouldn't that be avoided too? Or does the fact that you will get paid at significantly better than even money when you win compensate you for the risk? Standard deviation has to go way up regardless, and I thought it correct to try to minimize that in a tournament? Wouldn't it be better to try to wait for a lesser holding (say, Q-Js) with position on fewer players (2-3)?
I think TJ was talking about No Limit.
JohnnyD
Search the Tournament archives about folding AA pre-flop. You will find someone name Gator who wants to fold AA in No Limit. There were literally hundreds of messages and many threads about this discussion. In that situation AA would lose all the chips. Very few players agreed with dumping AA in no-limit.
In your scenario, since it is limit you are not risking all your chips. I will take my chances with AA everytime. Although I disagreed with Gator about folding I can understand why he might do it. In this scenario I can't fathom it since you are not even risking all your chips.
And remember the 22% is probably the worst case scenario. It is probably closer to 33%.
Ken Poklitar
TJ is referring to avoiding 50:50 situations where you're heads-up (and the payoff is therefore only slightly better than 1:1). TJ would not advocate folding AA preflop against a field of players.
Just about the only time to fold AA is when you are on the bubble of a super-satellite (where it is not at all uncommon to be in a situation where you should fold every hand without even looking). Almost any other spot, you don't fold AA preflop. The exceptions to this are so rare that you might never actually find yourself in one your entire life.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Your still using 7 opponents yet you have still not answered the question whether the blinds would come in if you re-raised.
Without answering this question, which I would guess would be no, most of your last response can only be charecterized used your terminology. Useless drivel.
Peace
Goodie
I believe you are mistaken about your scenario greg. imagine this if you would. You play your aces and lose the mimimum based on your suggestions of going to the river. approx 200. You raised pre flop. raised on the flop and checked the river. You lost to bottom two a weak calling station. you have 600 left. you catch no cards for one round costing you 40- 25+15. the blinds raise to 20 40 you play one round and recieve no cards costing you 60 you have 500 left. you pick up pocket kings make it two bets to go get two callers. 80 flop comes queen high two flush check bet you raise call call 80 turn deuce you bet call call. 80. river deuce no straights no flushes. check to you you bet for value and are check raised. You the expert you are know full well that the four flush draw was A2 fold. 80 total 320 180 left. Blinds increase 30-60 you decide to go all in on pocket jacks and lose to kq. However five hands from now you would have gone on a rush of cards and won the tourny. If only you had 250 more to play with.
You could say the last segment is contrived but we have all hit rushes and players say a chip and a chair for a reason. The flaw in your thinking is simply this. Infinite numbers cannot influence finite opportunites. In otherwords if it is right to play 7 2 at some times than it is correct to fold AA. You cannot beleive one without the other. Your earlier post suggested you beleive 72.
Thanks for your insightful posts on this forum you truly make one think. I am not kidding.
eee ps ingnore the spelling it is simply bad
Fuzzy thinking at its fuzziest. Same comment applies to Mark's post of 3:57pm. Guys, you need to clear your heads.
Andy
Curious to know what you find fuzzy about my 3:57 post?
"Tiger Woods is the greatest golfer in the world, but does that mean I should bet on him at all costs at any odds? I don't think so. So too I was hypothesizing that A-A may not ALWAYS be profitable, especially in the context of a tournament where you can't rebuy when you're out of chips"
A meaningless analogy. This is my last post on the subject as I have no intention of wasting any more of my time on this. As Ken said, consult the interminable AA posts started by Gator a month or two ago.
Andy.
You said:
"In otherwords if it is right to play 7 2 at some times than it is correct to fold AA. "
Yes, in a VERY VERY unique situation, near the money, it could be right to fold the aces preflop. This would be in a no-limit tournament where all your chips could be in jeoperdy.
Unfortunately, this really does not apply on early in tournaments and certainly not to limit hold'em, where, it is NEVER, mmmhhh, I'll repeat it, it is NEVER correct to fold the aces preflop. You need to get chips, you need to capitalize on those very few times you do get them premiums. You need to double up at some point in the tournament, why not try to do it with the best hand?
So what you'll lose more times than you'll win ? This is limit and you'll still have a good portion of your stack intact. When you do win you'll have given yourself a better chance at WINNING the tournament and that's what we want, no?
Surviving is really fun, you cruise along and tell yourself you outlasted 150 players yet finished 20 places short of the money, WOW! Poker is a risk taking game, calculated risks that is. You need chips to get in the good money. I would rather bust out early trying to get chips to get me to the final table than try to outlast players by playing survival-life support poker.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
eee wrote: "You could say the last segment is contrived ..."
Um, yeah. You've come up with just about a worst case scenario here, in order to justify a bad play (i.e., folding AA preflop). Maybe you're thinking a bit too negatively here?
Avoiding risk is appropriate in poker, especially tournament poker. Avoiding risk where you have way the best of it (and yes, even if you lose 2/3 of the time, when you're getting paid this well, you have way the best of it) is wrong. There is always risk preflop, always. Even after the flop, there is risk (almost all the time, as it is very rare to flop the nuts in a way that somebody can't draw out). You cannot wait until you have the nuts, and only then put chips in the pot. You must put in money preflop to be allowed to see the flop. And you usually have to put chips in the pot on the flop to see the turn. Except for the rare times you get AA (and KK to a lesser extent), you are almost never more than a 2:1 favorite preflop. You cannot pass up opportunities like this and be a winning player, as you simply won't get enough of them to still have +EV.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Mark,
I think that you should reraise on the button this hand. You have plenty of chips at this point. Many of these players will call raises with ace-rag, pocket pairs, and trouble hands like king-ten. Quite often you will get a flop like king-four-duece, so you do not want the blinds to get in cheap with a couple of rags.
At this point in the tournament you have plenty of chips to play with, even if you lose you will probably have more than half your stack left.
If the blinds increase every ten hands, you will probably not see a premium hand for the rest of the tournament. Due to the structure of these tournaments you will not get a chance to be a big favorite very often.
Sooner or later, you will have to gamble in this tournament, so I don't understand how you could muck this hand.
I won't repeat what everyone else says (don't fold), but I will ask the burning question that is on my mind as I read this thread:
Would you have won the hand? (:
$540 NLH Commerce
We are about 15 minutes into the event. There are roughly 180 players and we start with T800 (the blinds are 5 and 15). A relatively weak player on my immeadiate right opens for T70. I am on the button with two black Kings. I raise another T250. My opponent huddles and after considerable deliberation moves all in. I felt pretty certain by his body language that he did not have pocket Aces. I call. The flop comes with three small clubs. A Queen of spades comes on the turn and a blank comes on the river. My opponent turns over two red Queens. He hit a one outer on the turn. Should I have played the hand any differently?
Bruce
From what you told us, I think you did just fine, you simply got unlucky.
The reraise is fine. And like you said, you were pretty sure he did not have AA. Your opponent was a 4:1 dog to you. You got the money in with the best hand and that's what counts, right?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
What do you think?SOUNDS REMARKABLY LIKE A WHINGE.
Yeah it's a whine. The most frustrating thing was this guy was chip leader with three tables left.
Bruce
Your read was correct. He sucked out on you.
One can debate the amount you raised but the reality is KK vs QQ is a good bet everytime.
Ken Poklitar
I just had KK over on pokerpages trnmnt...A,2 o knocked me out ..he caught runner runner to make a wheel!!! I wish he had just caught an A.... Jim
I went to play in the WSOP Main event and before I left for Vegas at least 7 or 8 people told me Don't go broke with KINGS. I don't like to be results oriented and in this spot I don't think it matters. Would this player call an all-in bet on the flop if you had smooth called pre-flop? Probably.
Oh by the way. On the 2nd day of the WSOP I didn't go broke with KINGS. I went broke with 10's........against ACES. What a great player I am.
D
2 years ago in the 3K NL event at the series I also said "I am not going broke with Kings in the first hour of this event." I can tell you this is a BAD attitude to enter a tournament with.
Third hand in (I think 25/25 blinds). I am UTG with 2 black kings. I make it 75 to go. I get 3 callers, THEN Oneil Longson in the SB moves all in for about 3K. I think for about 3 minutes and fold.
Without going unto too much detail, this was a bad fold. Not that I am afraid to lay down K-K preflop, but against a wild player in this position--it was just dumb. Oh well
Anyway, I think you played the hand perfectly. The only other thing you could have done (although I would not have) would be to call and jam the flop if no Ace or Queen comes. The logic being that he must have AA, KK, QQ or A-K. If he has AA you are beat anyway. If he will call with A-K I dont mind winning the smaller pot by getting him to fold the flop when he misses.
Still, just bad luck for you.
Bruce,
I would probably just but around $180 which is a pot size raise. Sometimes, when players see a big raise after they have raised comming in with a premium hand feel committed to the pot. That's probably why he raised all in.
But, the clue here that he didn't have aces was his hesitation before moving in, unless he was really an expert. It was an easy call for you. This time you were unlucky, but you will be the favorite most of the time in this situation.
Good Luck
Mark
As TJ Cloutier says, "don't go broke early with aces". That said, I am a hypocrite in that in my last tourney I got waxed similarly:(
I'm not going to state this as fact because I have not read everything TJ as written. But, I don't think he said that. In Championship No-Limit & Pot-Limit Hold'em, in the tournament section, page 115, it says, speaking of early in a tournament "a pair of kings is not a big enough hand to get broke with. The only hand that is big enough to get broke with before the flop is two aces".
Can somebody quote something that disputes what I've said above? I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I've heard others say what this poster said and I don't know where it came from.
JohnnyD
Take the 1997 WSOP for example (for that's the only one I really followed Stu's play).
The difference between Stuey and players like John Strezmp is that Stuey's play put him the position to get lucky and John played most hands to hoping to get lucky.
Gene (holdemdude)
A2?
Me no compremdo...A2???
The difference between Stuey and not only John S. but all of us is that Stuey thought different than we do..
My guess is Stuey smelled or spotted or heard something about John S, something in no more than a milisecond, which convinced Stuey that John S. was weak...Something on an animal level...And Stuey pounced.
Stuey had the guts, the confidence of his reads and a careless regard for the outcome..
All of these factors allowed Stuey to win...IMO, the difference between Stuey's win in '97 and Hugh Vincent's second place finish in '94, is that Stuey's read weakness and was right while Hugh Vincent either did not read for weakness before he bet or read wrong and ran into strong hands as a result..
Here's an example from last night's £20 Pot-Limit Hold-em that I played in. Down to two tables, 16 players, blinds 600-600, average stack 5K. Whole final table (9 players) get paid but 6th-9th are a token amount.
Dude on my right is first to speak, makes it 2400 to go, now he has 700 left. Passed round. Guy one off the button raises. Second blind re-raises. Original raiser now has to call 700 into the effective main pot of, let's see, 1200 + 2400 + 2400 + 1800 + 1400 = 9200. Stops to think. Folds. Two players still in have KK, AK. Folder announces pair of 7s - which would have lost.
I exchange glances with the two decent players at the table and we get on with the next hand.
Comments ?
Andy.
My mind doesn't automatically calculate to odds like many of you, but I'm usually right about what is correct from a math standpoint and clearly he is getting correct odds to call his additional 700.
No only that, if he doesn't, he'll only have enough for one more hand anyway...is it likely to be better than pocket 7's.
By playing the way he did, he's almost assured that he will get one of the token prizes, which is what he would have received if he went broke on this hand.
I think he should have raised all-in instead of saving the 700 anyway.
JohnnyD
Johnny,
It's Pot-Limit so he can't go more than 2400 for the first raise. And there are still 16 players left so he's almost assuring that he will get - nothing !
Andy.
Andy, Ive given trying to analyise plays at Luton.. too many are beyond belief.
Trying to put a bad player on a thought is even more difficult than putting them on a hand.
I think you probably know the guy. He isn't that bad, just a bit too tight, and made a bad error of judgement here IMO.
I could have mentioned the other guy betting 3000 into a zero side-pot with just a straight draw but that happens all the time anyway ...
Andy.
Sorry Andy.....we don't have as many Pot Limit tournaments here in the new country. I wasn't thinking.
JohnnyD
Andy,
Obviously it's wrong to pass for 700 more. That's clear.
But what do you make of the first raise? I think it's exactly what I would do in his position. The hands out behind him are just bad luck in my opinion.
Guy.
First raise is fine given his chip count.
Andy.
If I had, for some unfathomable reason, raised to 2400 blind, and then this happened, I would call the last 700 blind as well. And if I looked, and saw 72o, I would still call without hesitation.
Mike Matusow called (correctly) an all-in rereraise at the final table of the WSOP championship a few weeks ago. Mike mistakenly tried to buy the pot with a reraise preflop, and the guy who went all-in could only raise enough that Mike had to call something like 65K to win over 500K. Easy call, even though Mike had 72o.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
Mike consistantly made plays like this throughout the tournament when he had more chips than his opponent. When his opponents had more chips than him he had a real hand.
Before they were down to the money tables I watched him play a hand. He raised before the flop and was called by a stack about half the size of his. I believe the flop was A 2 8. He check and his opponent bet. Mike reraised and his opponent reraised. Then Mike put him all in. On the river Mike had 3 5 for a busted straight. He was not getting the price to either call or reraise his opponent for a gut-shot. It appears Mike tries to play his opponents by trying to make them fold, but he misread them many times, and I'm sure he was lucky at some point to make it as far as he did. But, I'm willing to bet that unless he changes, he will not make the final table again, unless his opponents are weak and lay down their hands or he gets very lucky.
Also, the guy he tried to bluff out of the pot (along with Phil Helmuth) hadn't laid down a hand that he had called throughout the tournament. In other words you couldn't bluff him out. IMO he was trying to make a play on PH and wanted to show down the hand when he took it down. However he didn't think about the other guy in the pot.
Derrick Ashworth
Derrick,
After watching Mike play on Thursday, I would have bet money that he wouldn't make the final table. But, with the terrible run I had that week, besides getting the flu while I was in Vegas, I'm glad I didn't.
Its difficult to know what your opponent is likely to do if youre too busy trying to win the whos the biggest asshole left in the tournament award against stiff competition.
I felt obligated, in light of the harsh words stemming from this post, to remind everyone that Mike Matusow has been a consistently winning professional for several years and has made the money at the WSOP more than any of the posters on this forum.
I don't know if he is, in fact, an asshole... as Pp implied, since i've only had brief encounters with him. But he is most certainly a sound and solid tournament player. And, like all of us, he is capable of making mistakes.
This is yet another example, commonly seen on this forum, of mathmatically astute card players being overly critical of unconventional play. Often a well-known player will make an unconventional play and a litany of posts will arise describing what an awfull poker player this professional is, and how statistically unfathomable it would be for the player to continue to be succussful. Maybe it's wishful thinking?
Craig,
Just like you, I'm not into name calling and hope that others refrain from it. Sometimes, you encounter these guys and have a run-in with them--so be it.
But, the plays he consistantly made were poor. His strategy of figuring out what his opponent had and trying to make his opponents fold don't work with great players. He demonstrated this quite often. I am only interested in discussing specific plays and I don't want to generalize.
I don't think it's sound strategy to consistantly reraise players with garbage. You can only do that to opponents that you can read well. Eventually, the players will catch on and play back at him. That's what happened.
If you reraise with seven-duece off suit, you better be about 99% sure that they will fold. Otherwise, you are making the mistake.
I've only played with Mike once, when we were nearing the money at the 2000 TOC. I was not impressed with his play. He was extremely aggressive, and tried to run opponents out of the pot almost every time he played a hand. While I was at the table with him, he went on a rush of something like 10-13 hands in a row during the Omaha8 portion. Personally, I've almost never seen that many playable hands in a row, let alone won them all. He was getting very lucky during that run, and he was playing for it. He went 5 bets on the flop with one guy where all he had was a gutshot straight draw and position. The other guy had top set and a flush draw. Mike caught his 3-outer.
He may be a winning player, but he hasn't shown it to me yet.
Having said that, there are 2 basic types of losing players. Loose and passive, and loose and aggressive. The former never do well in tourneys, the latter often do well in tourneys, and a few of them are even winning tourney players. Maybe Mike adopts a hyper-aggressive approach in tourneys, yet is more solid in his ring game play. While I have no idea how he was doing, he was always in the 400-800 limit mixed game during the WSOP this year. So, he must still have most of the bankroll he won the year Scotty Nguyen won the championship.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Very bizarre. He wins 20% of the time against 2 overpairs. Throw the chips in and hope.
Now if he saw one of the other opponents also has 77 then it was a masterful fold since he would only win 1 in 25 times!
Ken Poklitar
Andy,
After he made that reraise, he should have called. Even though he would have lost, he probably lost anyway unless he was extremely lucky after that. I could only make a possible fold if only one player was left to be eliminated. He was too far away from the money to make it.
Good Luck
Andy
After a 3 month hiatus pocket aces were spotted in my hand 3 times last night in my local NL Tourney. AA was presumed missing but they were alive and well winning all 3 times. Even more amazing they came 2 hands in a row!
If you whine they will eventually come ...
Ken Poklitar
Ken,
When I was at the Orleans last year Rounder and I were sitting at a limit hold'em and there was four of us left. I said to Rounder I have not had yet had a pair of aces since I've been here. Well, they came shortly after that and I elimated a player. The three of us played one more hand and decided to make a deal.
When I was at the WSOP for ten days this year I did not get a pair of aces once. What are the odds of that happening?
Reno Hilton evening tournament,HL he, 103K in play. Down to 24 players, paying 10 spots. blinds 300/600 with 100 antes (1700 dead money). UTG limps, and at least 3 times previously he then folded to raise. I am 5th to act and player on my right goes all-in after a "think" with 2800. I have 3500 and likewise go all-in with AKs. Other hands fold, including limper so I have 2800 in trying to win 5100. Flop comes with A and I win. I also "win" a lecture from two players (rare at the Hilton) criticizing my call. I try not to be results oriented but I would make this play the next 10 times too. Any feedback appreciated. Ga
gary,
You played it correctly. So, what's the lecture about?
Am I missing something? What did they expect you to do? Fold and let the raiser win? Just call so others can come in?
I think you played it fine. If you are happy to face the all-in with AKs then go all-in. There is certainly a good chance he has a worse Ace then you. If he has a underpair then you are 50/50 or so.
Ken Poklitar
Would they have also folded Queens? That's basically AKs. The only hand your dominated by is Kings and Aces. I think I need to play more @ Reno Hilton if they lay down AKs to a raise.
D
Play is fine. I can't understand why anyone would lecture you either. Ignore them or tell them to get bent according to your demeanour / whether you could beat them up :-)
Andy.
I just read the everyone else's responses. I posted my first before. Glad you all agree!!
I think you played it great. An example-I got knocked out of a similar hand when I was the guy going all in with a similar amount of hands left. Same scenario, except I went all in w/ A-Qo. The next player rearised all in also. Turns out he had AKo also. I though originally I played it right, but after review, I realize I %$#@ed up. IAnyway, I think you played it good, learning my lesson being on the other end.
Guys
Thanks for taking time to respond. In hindsight, for a change, my foresight seemed OK. Best as I could tell it was 2 locals upset that another local got knocked out. Best,Gary
So why were they upset? What did they want you to do?
Ken Poklitar
Ungar-hunger; check this play. 1994 final 3: John Spadavecchia calls 75G before flop. Flop: AKQ, two diamonds. John S bets 50G. Vincent raises 550G. After lonnng think, John S folds. Vincent shows *pair of tens*!! How would this play on live tv?
playing the man
I have seen that video few month ago . I don't know a lot about NoLimit , but Hugh Vincent didn't seem to be a great player...
Play the man is a simple enough plan, but do you have the guts to raise half a mil with 3 overcards on the flop? * Vincent may not be "great", but how many at the final table are "great"? p.s. Vincent finished second.
And a similar hand has happen in this final table , I don't remember exactly the size of the stakes , amnd the size of the bet . action BTF . Flop come JQKr , John Sppadevacchia bets ; Russ Hamilton put Sppadevacchia all-in and he call , JS has 99 and RH has TT . Ohhh I forgot to mention that a miracle Ten has fallen on the turn . No help on the river for Russ .
Quite the contrary, Hugh Vincent is every WSOP no-limit players' nightmare because he can move his chips without holding the nuts...and then you have to face the deamons in your own hand...
Just listen to what Russ Hamilton says about Hugh Vincent on the same tape..
And just watch Hugh Vincent's demeanor...there's not a clue where he's coming from...
Quite the contrary from your admittedly inexperienced assessment of the man, Hugh Vincent almost stole it all that year...
He has the heart of a lion, and my respect for his game.
Btw, who do you think would have won that year if Hugh Vincent caught Q's full and a straight flush at the end of that tournament instead of Russ?
It took every bit of those hands to beat Hugh Vincent that year...Imho...
Jeh
This is a frequent enough situation to warrant, perhaps, a brief discussion:
I'm in a no-limt tourney, final table, 9 players left and 9 will get paid.
Blinds are 300/600, no ante, and there is T80,000 in total chips. I am short-stacked with 1800 in 5th position a get dealt pocket fives.
My usual practice in this situation is to raise all-in and hope for a heads up pot. With a larger chip count I would fold. I raised and got 2 callers and showed down the third best hand. A mental review of my past experiences revealed similar results. Am I playing these situations incorrectly?
CH
It's close. I don't think it's very wrong if it is. Certainly you have to make a move before the blinds hit you and for sure you have to go all in when you play.
It depends whether you think you can find a better spot in the next 4 hands. I'd probably make the raise. If I needed a tie-breaker, I would consider whether anyone else is likely to bust out very soon, what the increase in prize money is 9th->8th->7th and who is in the blinds right now compared to who might be in a couple of hands time (larger stacks and players who are more likely to call point towards waiting).
Andy.
I think that you are a little unlucky to be called by 2 players, making it difficult to win with 55.
In your short-stacked situation your play is ok unless you have reason to believe that there is a good chance that you can make more prize money by other players knocking each other out before you get blinded away.
There is a huge amount of variance in these situations and it is difficult to assess whether a play is correct or not by short term results.
Hello! Setting up a 100 buy in NL Hold'em Tourney for Sun 6/24 (Westchase area). Need just a few more players to fill up the tables. Start with 2 tables ( 8 or 10 per table ). Blinds will increase periodically - consolidate to 1 table - top 3 take $$$. Winner should take a grand at a minimum. Shoot me an e mail if you are interested in playing.
Limit Hold Em Tournament...Top 9 players are in the money...2 tables left. My table with 5 players and the 2nd with 6 players. Blinds are 1500/3000. I have 10,000 in chips and am either low or 2nd low in chips at my table. Furtherkmore the blinds will be moving up the next hand to 2000/4000. UTG with pocket Qs. I raise, all fold to BB who calls. Flop K-10-2 rainbow. BB bets out, I call. Turn 3, BB checks, I check, River 9 (no flush possible). BB bets..Should I call and leave myself with $1000. in chips if I lose? Should I have called the BB on the flop? The BB seemed like an relatively inexperienced player with a lot of chips. The leader at the table..With about $10,000 in chips I could have made it through my blinds and probably to the final table if I let it go after the BB raised the flop. I'm fairly inexperienced in tournament play byt after thinking about it I feel I should have tried to get to the final table and go from there??? Or did I do the right thing and try to build my chips if I made it to the final table???
You first said the BB bet out the flop....then later said he raised the flop...which is it? Its hard to comment on your play if you cannot accurately recall the hand. Odds are you wouldnt make the final table with your stack if you were low stack. You picked the best hand to build your stack to go to the final table with. At least thats how I see the situation.
If the BB did bet out on the flop as you first stated I would have probably raised.
Back to the way you played the hand......I feel that when the BB checked the turn you should have automatically bet. If he did have a K he would have almost certainly bet the turn. Checking behind him gave him the free river 9 making his hand if he held QJ.
I think trying to build your chips in that situation was correct....but the way you played the hand i feel was incorrect.
= )
I think your chip count is off. You say you had 10K, raised preflop so you put in 6K. Called the flop for 3K. 1K left. Check, check on the turn, then he bets the river. You ask if you should call and leave yourself with only 1K. Do you mean fold and leave yourself with 1K, or do you mean you really have 7K left when he bet the river?
If you're down to 1K, and there is 20K in the pot, you probably should call with any hand that has any semi-reasonable chance of winning. Second pair is an easy call, even though you wish he had just checked instead.
I suspect the guy has a T or a bluff. I think you'll win here more than half the time, at least based upon my experience. Of course, if you know the player, and know he won't bet the river with less than a pair of Ks, even when you're almost all-in, not even 1 time in 50, then you can fold. I don't know anybody that predictable. I would always call here.
If you have 7K left, and would still be alive after calling the river, then it's an even easier call.
If you only had 1K left after he bet the flop, then I also would try to save it, as you did. I would not fold no matter what else hit the board, but I wouldn't bet that last 1K myself unless I made a nut or near nut hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Sorry for the misinformation on the amount of chips at the start of the hand. I had 13K not 10K. I open raised BB called. On the flop he bet, I called leaving myself with 4k in chips. If I didn't call I would've had 7K and enough to make the final table. Thanks for your replys. He paired Ks on the flop and I was elimanated the next hand for 10th place.
Yesterday I was playing in a $540 buyin 7cs tournament at the Commerce Casino. One of the players refused to turn over his upcards and muck his hand when he was no longer involved in the hand. He would keep his down cards right next to his chips and make the dealer stand up to retrieve them. This clearly violates traditional 7cs ettiquette. To my way of thinking this behavior is childish and egocentric. I wanted to say something but I saw no upside to doing so. Should a player say something here? Should a dealer say something here?
IME some people are trying to start arguments, either because it puts other players off their game or, more commonly, because they are idiots.
If you think he was trying to shoot an angle by maybe making players think he has folded in some later hand when he is actually still in the hand, then by all means speak up. If you think he is just looking to cause trouble then don't bother.
Andy.
Ask the player politely to fold his hands and push them to where the dealer can reach them. Politely point out that he's slowing down the game. If he refuses or ignores you and continues, quietly grab the floorman when you're away from the table (e.g., next time you fold, and the floorman is nearby, walk over to him), explain what's happening, and ask him to talk to the player.
BTW, the dealer should have politely asked this guy to push his hand in, and then called the floorman when the player failed to comply. If I were the dealer, I wouldn't stand up. I would stick my hand out to it's maximum comfortable reach, and ask the player to push his cards. If he wouldn't, I would just sit there. Pretty soon, the other players are going to rag on the guy to push his cards, and the floorman will be drawn over by the commotion.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Chico,
This is LA man get used to it or don't play at the Commerce. IMO the rudest place to play that I've played so far. The action keeps people coming back obviously not the company.
paul
Why do you LA people put up with it? I hate to be politically incorrect, but it seems to be the Mid East people who are the rudest. Am I right?
JohnnyD
I am with Greg on this one. The dealer should have asked the player to push his cards. Then if the player continued or refused the dealer should have dealt around him. Give him a taste of his own medicine.
= )
Weekly no limit tournament, $50 buy-in with one $30 rebuy. Both get you T1000 in chips.
Tournament pays the final table and we're down to 18 players. There are T106,000 in total chips and I'm a medium-big stack with T8,000. The chip leader at our table had about T30,000, and, in my opinion, was not playing her large stack very well (ie, calling a lot, not coming over the top of anyone, not making big position raises) and was involved with almost every hand. The rest of the table was playing very weak tight, trying to hold on for the final table.
Blinds were 300/600 and I was UTG with A-9s. I new that an early position raise would get everyone out except the chip leader, who was on the button, so I decided to make a play and I raised to 1800. All folded to the button, and she reraised me to 3600. This was a rare play for her, so I knew she had to have either Ace-big, a pair bigger than 10s, or maybe (less likely) two big suited connectors. My instinct was to fold, and I almost did. But I studied her for a second and decided that she didn't have Aces, Kings, or Ace-King. Her most likely holding, I thought, was a medium-big pair. I decided to call, knowing that she would play the hand straightforwardly and I could double through if an Ace or the flush hit.
The flop came A-8-5 rainbow. I checked, she bet $3000 and I came over the top all-in. She quickly called and I knew I was beat. Turn and river brought no help and she showed me A-Qoff.
I know I played the hand horribly... my question is, what was the worst mistake: 1. My UTG raise with A-9s, trying to get heads-up with the chip leader out of position. 2. My call of her reraise before the flop. 3. My check-raise all-in on the flop.
I am disappointed and embarassed about getting knocked out of a tournament this way. I hope some discussion will help me and others avoid similar mistakes in the future.
Thanks,
Craig H
If you're that sure the chip leader will call, then I don't like playing A9 in early position. While the others might be playing timid, they'll still reraise you with big pairs or AK. Since she's calling, and you'll miss the flop the significant majority of the time, then why raise? If you had position on her, everything changes, of course.
I might have limped in with the hand, figuring that if anybody raises, I fold and have pissed away T600, but if they don't, maybe I can double through her or knockout out somebody else if I flop a big hand. A9s is maybe good enough to go for this scenario, given the passivity of the other players.
If you had done this, and she then raises you preflop (as it appears she would have done), you should muck. Yes, maybe if you flop an A she won't give up her pocket pair and she'll double you through. However, the risk isn't worth it. If she'll double you through with TT on a flop of A87, won't she also get you all-in on the flop of AT8? You won't be able to tell the difference between TT and JJ on these 2 flops, given her looseness.
Also, you said her preflop reraise was out of character. As soon as you said that, I started thinking AA. You should have folded to her reraise, and waited for a better opportunity. But, of course, you already know that, as you said.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Being that I have been eliminated from tournies with AJs UTG a few times I would tend to muck A9s pre-flop from UTG. The issue to me is that if you get called you are probably beaten. Sure there is a chance you can steal the blinds with the UTG raise but based on your read of the chip leader that won't happen. And you are in reasonable chip position so you don't need to do a desperation UTG raise.
If you do call the re-raise what flop do you want? Do you want an Ace or a Nine? Do you think the chip leader has TT or AK?
Ken Poklitar
Based on your question, "what was the worst mistake", I think it was calling her reraise before the flop. Based on what you said about her, I don't think she would have reraised unless she had A9 totally dominated.
A close second would be check-raising her after the flop. If she bets on an A85 flop, I'd have to put her on a bigger ace than A9. If you weren't sure she had an ace, then make a small bet to test the water rather than checking.
I don't think preflop was so bad, except if you know she's going to call, make the raise as small as possible.
JohnnyD
Craig,
I like Fossilman's response to your post. But, this is how I look at it at this point in the tournament. I would only raise under the gun with a ace weak kicker hand if I thought that I had a good chance to steal the blinds, or just get a caller and bet out on the flop to take the pot down. If I was reraised preflop by a player like the one you had, I would toss it in the muck.
The reason why is I figure I would be at least a 3-to-1 dog to win the hand and I don't want to commit my chips at this point, especially since we are not far from the money and I'll probably get a chance to win a pot in better position. Furthermore, my stack size is not at the point where I would have to win a pot to survive. So, I agree with your first instinct to fold to the reraise..
Gosh I don't know if I should play tournaments or not.
I played in the 100 buy-in 1 rebuy partners bounty tournament @ Lucky Chances in SF Bay Area tonite with a friend. We change players every round(20 min), start w/500t(rebuy 1000t)using Tex Tears format, 100 players, blinds start @ 10-15.
Well we never saw a flop for the first 4 rounds. The best I saw was QJo in EP so I mucked.
5th round my P played 2 hands AKo in SB, AQo in BB. We still havent seen a river card.
6th round I see my first flop with QJo on the button 4 ways as SB didnt call. Flop K9o but I don't call from a EP player for the gut shot........Is this correct? Of course we all know the 10 got there on the turn.
Next hand I muck 10Jo when it's 3 bets to me and flop comes 89...of course it got there. But I know I was way behind to start with.....3 bettor had QQ..........Should I be gambling more?
7th round we start off with 525t. Partner opens for a raise(our first EP play) UTG with queens before the flop. BB calls. Flop J high we win with a bet. @ hands later he collects the blinds w/QQ again.
8th round I start with 900t and quintuple us up with these 3 hands...AQo(EP), QQ(EP), AK(BB).
I actually think I played this hand perfect. I open raise with QQ. Get both blinds to call. This is my first early positition play, 8 rounds into the tourn. The flop comes rags 9 high. When they check to me I bet and get checkraised by the SB. Now @ this time I'm thinking if I 3 bet he'll figure me for overpair. If he has 2pr or set I'm done as this will cost me all my chips to go to the river...well all but 150. Turn is rag, he bets I call. River is rag but gutshot str8t got there. He checks!....Now I know he has pr 9's. I confidently bet he calls and I win.
Now this is interesting and where I wonder what I'm doing.
The first hand I limp with AQ UTG ....I'm thinking I should raise but hey we dont have much and ...whatever. Well 2 positions after me a decent player raises and gets 2 callers, I call. Flop Q high and I bet out. Raiser mucks. 1 caller, K on turn, I bet, he calls rag river I bet and he mucks. The next hand I play is AKs in BB. Flop came K high I bet I win.
Well that was our high point. 4500t. I never saw another flop till I was all in, in the BB when we were 5 handed. I lost that one. But all nite long I muked K10o, QJo, Q10..etc. Is this too tight? We made it to 19th but thats 9 away from $$. Of course I saw some stacks get very large @ our table. And they were mostly on rags. 89o(ep) calling 4 bets BTF...etc.
Do I not gamble enough? The only 1 high hands I played were AQ, AK. Hell they were raising in early position with any ace. Calling with worse ace rags. Does my type of play suck for tournaments?
I've played in maybe 20-30 tournaments in the last 3 years. I've done no better then 3rd. I've made final table 3 times. I gave up on the very small entry ones long ago because of "crap shoot" style. Am I just not cut out for it? I thought I played well tonite. But it's frustrating.
Thanks for your comments.
yes you play too tight. That doesn't mean you should be calling four bets with Ace-rag or 8-9. It means you might want to consider some early position raises with less than premium hands from time to time, particularly if the table is playing cautiously and you've established a tight image. If I was sitting at your table, describing the way you were playing, I wouldn't call an early position raise by you with anything less than Aces or Kings. Also, on the button you should consider being more aggressive. The hand when you had QJ on the button, you would have been better off to raise. Maybe you knock both blinds out, and with a bet on the flop you could have seen the river for free and made your straight for a nice pot.
What you are doing is playing solid ring game strategy, which won't cut it in a tournament. What you will find is that you will almost never get knocked out early, you will almost always get to the top third of the field, and you will almost never make top three. In order for you to win, you would have to have virtually all of your strong hands hold up. Instead, you'll end up with a very long compendium of bad beat stories.
I used to play like you for many years. My results were solidly dissappointing. I finally realized that I was ALWAYS getting knocked out of tournaments when I held the best hand when the chips went in. So I asked myself, am I really that unlucky? But I realized that in hold'em, the biggest favorite you can ever be preflop is 4:1. That's not very much. Here's an analogy: let's say I bet you $100 that the first card off a shuffled deck would be a spade higher than 3. You, of course, take the bet since you would win with 41 of the 52 cards. Now if the 10 of spades hit and I won, you would be dissappointed, and feel a little unlucky... but you wouldn't run around town telling everybody about the miracle that just occured. But if our pocket aces get beat by pocket 4s, we act like the impossible just occured, and make sure everyone knows about it. See what I mean?
Play more aggressively and your results will improve. You will get knocked out earlier more, too, though... so be prepared.
good luck,
Craig H
Your play doesn't suck.
You shouldn't be calling raises with mediocre hands. You shouldn't be raising with mediocre hands unless you feel there is a pretty reasonable chance to steal the blinds. You should be playing your good hands aggressively, but I don't see any evidence in your post that you're failing to do that (except the UTG limp with AQ; uch, fold or raise with that hand in that position).
You are probably missing some opportunities. Just because you should usually fold a hand like KT doesn't mean you should always do so. If the opportunity looks correct, you play these hands. If 5 players fold to you, and you haven't played a hand in a while, take advantage of your tight image and raise with those so-called trouble hands. You will steal the blinds often enough to justify the play. If the opponents are so loose that this raise is incorrect, then fine, don't make it. However, if the only caller you're likely to get is nobody or the big blind, then KT is almost certainly a raising hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I didn't see anything obvious that you did wrong. UTG I might raise with AQ instead of just calling but it is not terrible. The time you had QQ maybe I re-raise the check-raiser.
Most of the marginal hands you mentioned I also would have folded. JTo goes in the muck everytime facing a raise.
One of the things you didn't mention was stealing. In a limit tournament once the blinds start getting bigger you need to steal blinds. It is not clear if you did this.
Ken Poklitar
I agree with all of the other posts but would add a couple of points.
You don't mention how much you are stealing. Later on in the tournament this is the key (IMHO) to surviving. There is no point in spending a long time building a tight image if you don't make use of it. Middle to late position raises from a tight player will often steal the blinds which stops you dripping away your chips.
The second point is that you should have made a move earlier than going all in on your BB. Make an all in raise earlier in that round (or previous) and hope to steal the blinds.
I have to admit I am no expert and used to find myself in a similar position. Since then I have tried to open up and be more aggresive earlier. Too early to tell whether my results are any better but it certainly feels right.
Daniel
Longtime lurker, first real post: Pokerpages NL tourney (top 5 qualify for round 2, 64k chips in play, 44 of 200 players left). I was recently moved to this table so don't have a read on the table/players. Blinds are 50/100 and I have 1199T. I find myself UTG+1 with AcQs. I (hero) raise to 200T, 3 seats to my left pretty big stack (PBS) with ~2800T calls, rest fold. Flop comes Qc7d10d. Hero bets 399, PBS calls. Turn comes 4d. What is your play? Comments on my play up to this point? Results to follow.
Thanks in advance for comments.
Recap - Hero raises pre-flop with AcQs and sees the flop of Qc7d10d heads-up with a bigger stack.
Hero curses for a second then goes all-in for 600T.
PBS calls. River is another small diamond. PBS shows KdQd - Hero was dead on the turn.
Rationale for pushing in: Fear of letting the singleton diamond in cheap, knowing that PBS would sense weakness if I checked at this point and would commit me to the pot with a bet, and thinking I'll be run over if I fold top pair top kicker heads-up in tourneys when 3 to a flush hits the board. Am I seeing this situation right?
Thanks again for input.
Your postflop play is all reasonable. Your preflop raise is what I don't like.
The blinds are 50,100, and you only make it 200 total? That's simply not enough. Unless you're making some kind of psychological play (which is almost impossible to do properly through the net, though it is doable in a live game), you need to raise to at least 300, so that the big blind has a reasonable incentive to fold.
It is quite possible that the guy with KQ still calls, and you still go broke. However, what would you be thinking if you had gone broke to the big blind holding QT? That would have been all your own fault. Even here, the guy who called with KQs is probably making a small mistake preflop. After that flop, I'm surprised he didn't raise you all-in right away. He's obviously much too passive of a player.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, I don't know if you've played the PokerPages tournaments, but I don't think there's more than a handful of players who would fold KQ suited preflop for any size raise.
I think going broke on this hand is unavoidable for our hero.
JohnnyD
Pre-flop I would raise to atleast 300 maybe 350.
On the flop with 550 in the pot and 2 of the flush suit I probably bet 550.
Now on the turn without knowing much about the PBS you have a tough decision. The fact that he called your flop bet implies he has something. Of course the question does he have something like KQ, two diamonds or just one big diamond.
I think I would probably go all-in with your final 600.
Ken Poklitar
Playing my local NL tourney last night. It is still early in the tourney. The blinds are 50-100 and I have T1800 (average).
UTG+1 (weak player) calls. Big stack (kinda aggressive) with T4200 raises to 500. I look down and see AA. Wow 4 times in 2 tournies. There is 750 in the pot but I want to double up and I put in a moderate raise. I make it 1200 to go. All fold to the big stack who calls.
Flop is KQJ. Can there be a worse flop for me? He puts me all-in with 600 and I call. Of course if he has AK or AQ it is a good flop.
He shows KQo for the flopped 2 pair. The turn and the river do give me one of my many outs and I am out early.
Oh well Thursday is another NL tourney :)
Ken Poklitar
Hey, if he's likely to fold for 1800 but call for 1200, then you played it correct. Especially since he'll have to call if he flops anything getting 5:1 to call.
I made a similar play at the Taj's USPC last year. A guy raises, I reraise with AA, an amount that represent more than half my stack, but small enough I think he'll call. He does call, and calls my all-in on the flop. He has AQ and has flopped top pair with the Q. He caught another Q on the river to win.
I'm unhappy with the result, but think the play came down perfectly. The only time he probably folds postflop is when it comes K high with 2 small cards, giving him no draw and only 1 overcard. Anything else, I get him all-in. And, since the money mostly went in preflop (and effectively all of it went in preflop), I'm getting all my money in as a HUGE favorite.
That's the way to win, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I had never seen this particular player so I thought there was a chance he would fold to a raise all-in. He raised 3 times earlier but he was never re-raised so one never knows. In talking to this guy later he implied he would have called an all-in bet.
What Andy mentioned about being more worried calling a pot-committed raise like I made versus an all-in raise is an interesting thought. It is true that if I don't want a caller I go all-in in this situation.
Ken
It's worth pointing out that there is 750 in there already and if you win it right now you will add over 40% to your stack with no risk which is not bad.
I have to say that I might in practice be more likely to call an all-in re-raise than a suspicious looking 1200 in the raiser's shoes but it would be boring if everyone played the same :-)
Andy.
I agree the 750 seems nice but this tournament has 14 minute rounds with blinds doubling. So this seemed like a good chance to double up.
Ken Poklitar
Personally, I would play this hand one of two ways: either I decide I'd be happy with the 650 in the pot and I push all-in preflop, or I decide that I want to try and make a move with my chip count and potentially get one or two others in for a lot of money. In the second case I would just call the 500 and see what happens. If someone behind reraised, then I would push in... if it still ended up heads-up, then I could make my decision after the flop.
Let's say you called 500 and you were heads up. What would the big stack have done with that flop? Was there any way you could have gotten away from the hand?
More importantly, if you just call the raise, you're giving someone behind you a chance to reraise with something like Queens or Jacks or A-K. Big stack probably folds, then (right?) and you're heads up all-in with the best of it for a bigger pot.
Of course, I got knocked out of the pot-limit event at the Reno WPC this year making this play. Pocket 7s called on the button and flopped a set. If I reraise with my aces he folds and I win a decisive pot.
Oh well, there are many ways to skin a cat... of course Mark and Gator will tell you that you clearly should have folded preflop- then you would have still been alive, right?
-Craig H
I think the problem with just calling the raise is I more likely then not get one of the blinds and maybe the limper. I really wanted to be headsup with the big stack.
If I did call and the big stack bets out with a KQJ flop it would be hard for me to get out. Although there are several hands he could have that beats me (KK, QQ, JJ, AT, KQ, KJ & QJ) it is likely that he has hands that I could beat (AK, AQ, AJ or any lower pocket). If we both had really big stacks then if he bet, I raised and he re-raised then I probably could dump the hand but that wouldn't have happened in this case.
Ken Poklitar
I'm not sure that it's likely you are winning on the flop. You listed the hands that beat you that he might reasonably have: KK, QQ, JJ, AT, KQ, KJ, QJ. By my reckoning there are 44 two-card combinations he could hold to have one of these.
What could he be holding that you beat? AK, AQ, AJ and maybe TT, 99, 88. The 99 and 88 seem unlikely if he bets into a KQJ flop, but even if we assume he might have one of these, I think this only adds up to 36 combinations. 24 combinations without the 99 and 88.
Not a good flop at all.
Guy.
Ken,
I would reraise all-in preflop. If my opponents very aggressive he may call anyway. Picking up $650 would be good at this point. I would never call in this situation, because calling $500 is too much of my stack to risk without feeling committed to the hand. I would do the same with AK or KK. Futhermore, if I thought the raiser was week, I may move in with QQ, JJ, TT, 99, or even 88. But, I would not call a raise that large.
Ken
I think your title is accurate: with AA you did want him to call and then get more chips after the flop. This early in the tournament, after the KQJ flop did you consider folding when he bet out? Realistically with his bet it is hard to imagine that you have anymore than the 4 tens as outs. While loosing with AA always sucks, it being early in the tournament, and if really wanted to play it out and grind I think a fold here (not just because of what happened) is appropiate. Best,Gary
Well, even as it turns out he also has 2 Aces, 3 Jacks and a running pair to win. Add that to the possibility of your opponent having AK or AQ, or even KT can't be ruled out, and I think a call is in order.
Andy.
The only way I am drawing slim is if he has flopped a set or a straight. Even in that case I still win with an Ace or a Ten. There are 9 possible ways he has a set (KK, QQ, JJ) and 8 possible ways he has a straight (AT).
There are 27 possible ways he has 2 pair (KQ, KJ, QJ). In this situation I still win 40% of the time.
There are 18 possible ways he has 1 pair with an Ace kicker (AK, AQ, AJ). And of course there are all sorts of other hands that he could have including underpairs.
Now did I calculate all of this at the time of him betting. Of course not, but although I hated the flop, I did feel there was a good enough chance that I could still win the hand.
Ken Poklitar
I'll be in Las Vegas this Friday and Saturday. Any good hold'em tournaments WORTH playing? I know that the Orleans has a NL Tourney with $60 buy-in and one $40 rebuy on Friday and a Limit Tourney with a $30 buy-in and one $20 rebuy. I've also heard that the Luxor has small tournaments daily and that the Mirage has bigger ones. Can anyone give me some more info on the local tourney scene in Vegas?
Thanks in advance.
as soon as you get there .pick up a CARD PLYER MAGERSINE at any poker room in lasvegas .it lists all tounys in back pages . gl .let us know how u do . FRED
I believe The Mirage Tournaments only run on Sunday thru Thursday. But I would check with The Mirage Poker Room to be sure.
www.cardplayer.com
All tourneys in Las Vegas monday-sunday
I have no idea what the payouts are for the regular Mirage tournaments, but I did not at all like the way their satellites are set up when I went there to play.
Entry fee to main event: $200. Entry to satellite: $25
"Wait a minute," says I, "That's $250. If the entry fee is $200, where do the other $50 go?" So I asked the floor manager. He didn't know. He consulted the rulebook. It didn't say. He went to the managers at the cashier's box. Couldn't tell him. Finally he said hold on and went to the back. 5 minutes later, he comes out. "It goes to the house."
Um...excuse me? 20% of the winnings go to the house? Pardon me while I go on back to the regular tables and try my luck there.
I did enjoy a tournament at Luxor. I think they hold them at noon daily. Very cheap entry fee.
Charging $50 vig for a satellite isn't at all unreasonable. By offering the sat, they're tying up a table and dealer for about an hour, and they average quite a bit more income than $50/hour on the regular table. If they charge less than this amount, as a practical matter they really can't offer the sat at all.
Basically, what this adds up to, is that there is no reason for the house to even offer sats for events with buyins less than $500 or so. While they do, they must charge a vig that is so high relative to the stakes that even a very good player really can't have (much) +EV. With the setup they're providing at the Mirage, a really good player might be able to make $10/hour on average, possibly $15. Any more seems unlikely.
Put it like this, I've seen a lot worse deal than what the Mirage is offering. How'd you like to play a sat for a $330 tourney, and the house keeps $120? If I recall correctly, that was the price at the Taj last December, and the sats there don't even last a full hour they're structured so fast. If I'm remembering it too harshly, somebody please correct me.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
From what I've heard, all of the Orleans tourneys are worth playing. They tend towards the biggest fields of all the daily events in LV. The Luxor tourneys are very small buy-in, very small field, very weak field, but you really can't win much.
All of this is second-hand info.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Jace,
I was in Vegas last month and played the tourneys at the Mirage and Orleans. The Mirage tourneys are run Sunday through Thursday. Even though you will not be there those days, I wanted to mention that I like the Mirage tourneys because the skilled players have a better chance to win. The rounds are 30 minutes and no antes in the No-Limit tournaments.
Since, you will be there on Friday and Saturday, I suggest that you go to the Orleans. On Friday afternoon they have a $20 buy-in Omaha Eight or Better with unlimited rebuys for $10. They usually get between 50 to 100 players for this event. Most players do at least one rebuy and an add-on. The house takes $10 out of the original buy-in. So, If you have 50 players the estimated prize pool will be $1500. I've played this before and did a five way split and gave the trophy to the guy with the most chips.
On Friday evening they have the $60 No-Limit Hold-em with one rebuy for $40. They usually sell out this event whenever I play it, so I suggest calling two hours before it starts to reserve your seat. They usually have 120 players for this event, so it is worth playing.
Then on Saturday afternoon they have a $30 Limit Hold'em tournament with one $20 rebuy, and I believe a Seven Card Stud Eight or Better in the evening.
Good Luck
Mark
Jace,
Orleanscasino.com will give you all the info you need for these trnmts.
paul
Orleans Poker Tournament Schedule
Daily Tournament List
(No Double Add-ons)
Subject to Change
Days Time Event Buy-In Re-Buys
Monday Noon Omaha Hi-Lo $20.00 $10.00
Monday 7:00 pm No-Lim. Hold'em $20.00 $10.00
Tuesday Noon Hold'em $20.00 $10.00
Tuesday 7:00 pm 7-Card Stud $20.00 $10.00
*Wednesday Noon Omaha Hi-Lo $30.00 $20.00 (1)
Wednesday 7:00 pm Hold'em $20.00 $10.00
Thursday Noon Hold'em $20.00 $10.00
Thursday 7:00 pm Omaha Hi-Lo $20.00 $10.00
Friday Noon Omaha Hi-Lo $20.00 $10.00
*Friday 7:00 pm No Lim. Hold'em $60.00 $40.00 (1)
*Saturday Noon Hold'em $30.00 $20.00 (1)
Saturday 7:00 pm 7-Card Stud Hi-Lo $20.00 $10.00
Sunday Noon No Lim. Hold'em $30.00 $20.00 (1)
*Sunday 7:00 pm Hold'em Sat'l $120.00 $100.00 (1)
All Tournaments Except Sunday Evening are Bounty Tournaments
* Tournament of Champions Qualifier
Posted this in another forum. I'll try it here.
In my local cardroom, all games are limit, except that they are No Limit at the final table of tournaments, so I don't get much practice at it. (Nor do any of my opponents.) So I only need to know this for these final tables, but it's worth knowing for that.
I've read people talking about the `standard 3XBB raise'.
Firstly, does this mean raise TO 3XBB or raise BY 3XBB?
Secondly, what is the rationale behind a raise of this particular size, rather than a smaller, or bigger, or all-in raise?
Of course, there may be all kinds of considerations to consider in any particular game (especially in a tournament, where you are scrutinizing stack sizes etc.), but I am really just interested in reading some general basic principles in choosing size of raises.
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
How much you should raise depends almost entirely upon whom you're facing, and your respective stack sizes.
As for "to 3x" vs. "3x more", people mean both. Some folks mean the first, some the latter.
Since I steal a good bit, I want to raise an amount that will succeed often enough to be profitable, but not by too much so that it doesn't cost me too much when I get caught. By raising to 3x, you're putting in 3 big blinds to win 1.5 (+ antes if any). If you know you'll win 2/3 of the time, you break even right there, even if you ALWAYS fold when called or reraised. In practice, you need to win the blinds uncontested almost half the time for a steal to be correct at this price. If you raise to 5x, you need to succeed much more often, as a failure costs you more. If you raise to 2x, you don't need to succeed as often, but because it is so easy for the big blind to call this raise, you'll probably find that you don't succeed enough.
Through years of experience, most people find that 3x is about the right raise to make. In your game, or against your opponents, it may be quite the wrong amount most of the time.
The questions you need to ask yourself is how often will a raise of whatever size get called, how much you win when you steal, how much you win when you get played with and win, and how much you lose when you get played with and lose. If you have AA, you want to get played with, so you might raise a different amount. However, if you do that regularly, your astute opponents will know when you're raising with a real hand, and when you're stealing with nothing much. So, if you're going to mix up your raises, you must make sure you're not being predictable.
There is no set rule. You will see different winning players doing different things. What you should do depends upon you, your game, and your opponents. Think in advance, while the dealer is shuffling, how you think your opponents are likely to respond to various raises you might make, then look at your hand, see the action in front of you, and finally decide if you're going to raise, and how much.
Post hands here, and ask for input. Somebody will reply.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Dirk,
My basic rule of thumb is to raise the pot. This may actually be because I play a lot more pot-limit, but there you go :-).
So with blinds of 100-200, the call is 200 and then I raise 500 more, 700 (3 and a half times the BB) in total. If someone has already called, that makes 700 I can raise and 900 in total.
A smaller raise makes it too easy for the blinds to call and outflop you ; a larger raise is really overkill as you will either win just the blinds or get called by a very big hand.
Finally if a pot-size raise would require more than half my chips, then I am pot-committed and should raise all-in to discourage callers as much as possible.
Of course there are situations where you raise different amounts for various reasons (although personally I don't very often, as by their nature No-Limit tournaments tend to have tougher fields over here so it's not a good idea to screw around too much). But that's my starting point. Hope this helps,
Andy.
Is it ever correct to fold AA pre-flop in a hold'em tournament?
Yes, near the money in a supersatellite where just folding EVERY hand will get you a spot in the tournament.
Otherwise, no, never.
If you wish to have further comments, see below a thread about AA and look in the archives about a discussion started by Fossilman and Gator.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
This topic was raging a while back. I think the answer is almost never. It could only be correct late in a tournament, where you may want to watch other players bust out so you climb up the ranking. A few scenarios have been posted, but they are quite unusual. Here's one.
Suppose you are at the ten-handed final table. All stacks are equal, and just enough for a small blind. Suppose you are on the button with AA and everyone has called (all-in) in front of you. Suppose 1st places pays 40% , 2nd pays 20% and 10th pays nothing. What are your choices. (Assume no split pots, for simplicity.)
You can call. You have about 30% chance of winning the hand (and hence the tournament) and 70% chance of losing and splitting lower places 9 ways, for EV of 16.67% of prize pool.
You can fold and watch one player accumulate 90% of the chips in this hand. Then you have 10% chance of 1st and 90% chance of 2nd for EV of 22% of prize pool.
Scenarios can be more realistic. But your criterion should be to maximise EV of prize.
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
IMO, only if it's a super-satellite can it ever be the most profitable play. Well, maybe we can manufacture some other few situations where it is correct, but there is an excellent chance that you will never find yourself in any of those, so if you simply pretend it is always 100% correct to never fold AA preflop, there is a good chance you will never mistakenly fail to fold AA preflop in your lifetime.
The only scenarios I can manufacture are super-satellites, or tourneys that are practically supers in view of their payouts. If a super is paying 5 seats and nothing to 6th, and you have plenty of chips with 6 players remaining, arguably you should fold every hand without even looking, thus including AA. Even if you have 1 measly chip, if two players with n chips apiece each goes all-in before you, you should fold, as you will win a seat on this hand unless they tie. It is more likely one of them beats your AA than it is that they tie.
People have postulated a hand like this. It's the final table of the WSOP 2001. First prize is 1.5M, and second is almost 1.1M (actual figures). All 9 players are tied in chips, and all of the other 8 go all-in before you act in the big blind. You see AA. If you fold, you are very likely to be heads-up with one player and an 8:1 chip disadvantage. This position is worth about 1.14M. If you call, you'll win about 35% of the time, for a win of 1.5M. You'll lose the other times, and get 1/8th of the prize money for 2nd-9th places combined. This is worth somewhat less than 1M on average. So, by folding AA preflop, you increase your EV by about 150K, a significant edge. Of course, in the next thousand years, if we ever see every one at the final table all-in on the same hand, I'll be rolling in my grave from shock, so we can probably ignore this hypothetical safely. Similarly, there are no other hypotheticals that I've thought of or read by others that is at all plausible.
To simplify, never fold AA preflop. How exactly it is best played, be it limit or PL or NL, is open to much debate. Whether to play it or fold it really isn't.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
thanks for the responses. I was involved in another thread where someone suggested there would be times when laying down AA pre-flop was the best play.
I just don't think I could live with myself as a poker player if I ever layed down the nuts pre-flop.
It's the main event at the WSOP. You're down to 10 players and making it to the top 9 gets you to the final table and the TV coverage, etc. Just as you look down at your cards, you hear the dealer from the other table say "three players all in". You're pretty sure at least one will be eliminated. You see pocket Aces. UTG raises all in.....do you fold?
I would.
JohnnyD
Ok, I could understand why. But admit you would be throwing away monetary EV here. The best play, from a monetary point, is to play them. But, if personnally you feel that making it to the final table of the main event is so much gratifying that it is worth cutting down your monetary EV, fine. Also, maybe making it to the final table alone can have it's future rewards (sponsorship, cardplayer column, ego boost--in future tournaments, more sex with the wife :-), whatever...). Maybe that is to consider.
But what about if you played the hand, won it, and came to the final table as chip leader ? Would that be gratifying ? :-)
Bottom line is, from a pure tournament EV point, the best course of action is to play them, but maybe that's not the only thing. We are gamblers out to get the money, but sometimes (sometimes) we become humans, that's ok, right ? I personnally don't know what I would do in that situation. I will find out in a couple of years and tell you about it then. If I knew I would get there 5 times in my life then I would surely play them. As should every player in this situation at another tournament, but the big one is special.
May this situation come up for you John,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
not a chance in hell would I fold.
Andy Glazer give a real world example of such a situation during the WSOP in Vol 14 of Card Player Magazine (the article is here).
My take on this is that, basically, you should fold, if your prize money EV through the possible elimination of another player is higher than the prize money EV you can expect by playing AA, even if the latter has always positive EV in chips, since prize money EV and chip EV is only equivalent within a winner-takes-all payout structure.
You're right, but the only real-world situation I've ever heard of where folding AA preflop resulted in a higher monetary expectation involves just the one Andy describes, on the bubble in a super-satellite. I've never yet heard anyone describe a situation in a regular tourney, or a 1-table satellite, where folding AA preflop had higher $EV than playing AA.
If anybody can tell us about one, I'd be interested. I have heard of a couple of hypothetical situations, but those are so unlikely that they've probably never actually arisen, and probably never will.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg:
I have played in a tournament in a small Nevada town where the payout is determined by the last three players standing. Once all but those three have been eliminated, the tournament ends. Then the chips are counted: whoever has the most gets first place, second most chips gets second, etc. I think that this unique payout structure could easily put a player in a situation where he would fold any two cards, provided he has a substantial chip lead and is certain that the fourth player remaining is about to be knocked out. But since relatively few tournaments have such a structure, I must agree with the rest of the posters that folding AA pre-flop is RARELY correct.
Here's another one. Most of the payout is in the top three positions. There are four left. Player A goes all-in before the flop. Everybody folds to you. You have him covered, look down and see pocket Aces. The problem is that the all-in player is your collusion partner and you really don't want to eliminate him. Its +EV to keep him in.
JohnnyD (don't flame - just kidding)
Bollocks There is a scenario where passing the aces is correct but if youre good enough to think about this you wont be mies away like the dreamers in this thread.
I made a comment about the behaviour of people at the final table this year and recieved a few sermons from some people who possibly werent even there.This event is an oppottunity to show the doubters that poker has indeed dragged itself from the shady background of yesteryear to the fair SPORTING audience friendly event it has become today.This has been achieved through the tireless work of many behind the scenes who seek no personal glory and to some extent through the exemplary behaviour of hundreds of players whove played this event over the last few years.Id rather not watch a few egomaniacs whove watched too much WWF undo it all .
many who post here seem to be good at math, so perhaps you can answer ......
For the sake of simplicity, let's say that John John is EQUALLY very, very good in both tournaments and ring games....and let's say that the quality of the other players (poor, good, better, etc) is distributed the same in the tournament as it is in the ring game.
still with me?---O.K., John John wants to know if there is a difference in the risk - reward ratio between ring game and tournament.
then there is Tommy, who is not as good as john john, but nevertheless is good at both tournaments and ring games. Tommy plays in the real world where there may be differences in quality etc, Is there a difference in the ratio here? Jim
passing the aces.Isnt it wonderful to have an opinion on what ......Get a life just one of you.This game isnt played in fantasy land.Far more important to discuss two eights or something you have to do before the welcome feel of those old aces again for th old click here click there meaningless masturbation
Speaking about the Mirage satelites. I was playing at one the other day. It started 11 handed, 25.00 per person. The prize was a 120.00 n/l hold-em entry and 80 or 100 dollars. Well to make a long story short. It was down to me and another guy. I had 900 in chips he had 2400. I was posting big blind for 200 he was small for 100. I proposed a deal if he gave me back my original 25.00 dollar buy-in he could have the rest. My question is did i sell myself short by doing that deal??? Any comments please respond.
Thanks Gene
I'm afraid so. Heads up it's quite easy to work out, your chance of winning (all other things being equal) is the same as the proportion of chips you have. You have 900 / 3300 = just over 25% of the chips. If the prize is $200 you should be entitled to just over 25% of that or $50+.
Andy.
Andy is right...and on top of that, I feel that majority of other players would be HAPPY to give up the $50 to lock in their share. Jim
Actually the small stack usually is entitled to just OVER his equity--go ask a math weenie. Anyway you definatly sold yourself short. Oh well.
That's true with more than 2 players but not when it's heads up.
Andy (math weenie).
gene there are two other things I forgot to put in my first post: (1) whenever near end of tournament, there is usually an "offical" there at the table, and you can ask what would be a fair deal...or, (2)as in making a deal for objects, ask the buyer (or seller) what kind of deal can be made, let him name the $ first. lol Jim
As Andy said, when it's heads-up there is no extra for the short stack, nor when it's winner-take-all, as in Gene satellite here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Ha, Your both right, my oversight.
Thanks everyone for your input. I was mad at myself when I was driving home. So I thought i would post it here to get some feedback. I knew it was a bad move but was hoping (wishful thinking) it could have been justified:) Well next week I'll give it hell again. The ironic thing about it is 4 weeks ago I was in the same predictament but the other would not deal. So the funny thing was i ended up winning the whole prize. I did get lucky though a few times:) So now i look even more like a dumb a*s. Oh well thanks again for the input.
Gene
This may seem like a silly question at first, but I am sure it is not. I will try to set the situation as accurately as I can, and please take careful note, as many of the details are quite important.
This is an actual hand from the $540 limit HE event recently played at the CA State Poker Championships at the Commerce. There were 186 entants, and $540 got you T800, which put about T150,000 in play. When this hand came up, we were somewhere near the middle of the 200-400 blinds, 400-800 level (45 minute rounds).
I have about T5000, and there are about 25 of us left (average stack was therefore about T6000). 18 places paid. Erik Seidel is on my immediate left with T1400. I can't remember exactly, but I believe that he has had this stack size for about 4-5 hands (folded pre-flop for all these hands). I don't know any particulars about Erik's play, I only know that he is of course a very experienced tournament player and very strong. We just chose seats when we went down to 3 tables about 10 hands ago, so I don't really have a line on his play other than what I have mentioned above.
THE HAND:
I am in the BB, and Erik, UTG, makes it 800 to go, so he only has 600 left. All fold to me. I look down to find 84o.
THE QUESTION:
What is the best way to play this hand, from start to finish?
No, this is not a joke. I do not think that this is a clear fold as I'm sure many of you might think. I will explain my reasons later if this seems absurd to you. Can anyone explain why it is a fold, or if not, explain how they would play the hand, and why?
In the actual hand, I thought for about 10 seconds and folded, exposing my cards. The table got quite a laugh out of the fact that I thought so long about this fold... what do you think?
Thanks in advance!
You are correct, this is not an obvious fold, and maybe not a fold at all.
Given his chip position, Erik has to make a play, which you obviously knew. If this were NL, and he went all-in, you would be getting 2:1 on the call, exactly. In limit, you're also getting 2:1, but it is happening in smaller bites.
I would most likely have called, and then bet the flop. If he calls or raises, fine, get him all-in and hope you suck out. Hopefully, the flop will have missed him terribly, and he will believe you're betting a real hand, and fold.
Your decision is probably the third best, but 1-3 are all close. The play above is my first pick, reraising to get all the money in preflop is second, and folding preflop is third. What a lot of people will do, amazingly enough, is to call preflop, and plan on putting more money into the pot ONLY if they catch something. That might be the worst way to play the hand, but since there are quite a few who will do it, it increases the odds of his folding when he flops nothing, and you call preflop and bet the flop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I am not convinced spending an extra T1000 (assuming he goes all-in postflop) on 84o makes sense at this point. I can see doing this with some type of connector but 84o seems weak.
Assume you call the raise with 84o and bet the flop, I would guess there is 0% chance Eric would fold to the bet. Now if the UTG player was a typical yahoo I agree there is a chance the player would fold.
Do you feel this is correct because you know that Eric is such a good player and having him bustout is obviously an advantage? Or would you make this same call against any typical tourney player?
Ken Poklitar
You're making 2:1 on the play, and are rather unlikely to be a worse dog than this. If this were NL, I would call without even looking at my hand, so why should I throw away 84 just because it's limit? I believe that the reason to call now and bet the flop is that Erik might fold. What would you do if you were him, raised with QJ (which is better than taking the blind having so few chips), got called by some guy you've never seen in the big blind, and then got bet into on a flop like A96, or K77, or whatever? Any flop that doesn't help Erik has some reasonable chance of helping his opponent. Erik might not fold. I wouldn't fold. Even if Erik knows what you're doing, he still has to call and let you play him getting 2:1 for your money. So, even if this play doesn't work against Erik, it will against a reasonable number of players.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have to disagree with you on this one Greg. Erik will only make one of two plays in this circumstance: either he will fold a worse than random hand, or he will raise a better than average hand. So, you know his hand is better than average. 8-4 off is worse than average, so you are guaranteed to be a dog here. Now, it's true that you MAY not be worse than a 2:1 dog, but it is very likely that you are worse than a 2:1 dog. The majority of "better than random" hands will have a pair or two overcards to your 8, so you will be worse than a 2:1 dog, I think. Almost all better than random hands will have an overcard to each of your cards, which is about a 2:1 favorite. If I'm wrong in my assumptions, I still think a fold is correct because of your stack size and the number of players remaining. With 5000, your stack is just below average, and it would cost you 1000 more to play the hand as a sure dog. I don't like this play at all.
If I do choose to play it, I would call and bet the flop no matter what, as you suggest. But I would rate this as the second best way to play it.
The decision would be much more interesting if you were holding 9-7off or J-3off. I still think I would fold. In fact, the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Erik is likely to have a relatively strong holding, since he would have to expect to get more than one caller here. I think he would rather wait for the BB with anything weaker than a hand like 9-10s, or JQoff. I don't think he would play a hand with a card less than 8 in it, unless he was paired. So under these particular circumstances, I think I would fold anything weaker than 10-J. I would also call with any Ace.
Craig H
I think Greg makes a good point. It is not clear that you will be a 2-1 dog. Also there is no way you can get blown out after the flop. I think the best play is to call and bet the flop.
I am a little wary because of the chip positions. I would hate to double Eric up while watching my stack dwindle by about 1/4. Still if eric holds 9-10, or even A-2 you are not in that bad of shape.
Knocking someone out at this stage of the competition is not my concern. It normally happens in its own time :-).
While it may be true that it is good to knock out a very strong player, the converse is that it's not good to double him up and make him a threat.
I just make the play according to how I think my opponent will react. Obviously a very good player will react differently to a weak one, but apart from that I don't go out of my way to knock out a strong player, or even anyone, at this stage. In fact, because this is the stage of the tournament I particularly enjoy and where I am markedly better than my opponents (this is my typical opponents, not the Seidels of this world :-)), I could make an argument for wanting to keep people in and extending this stage.
Andy.
Thanks!
I appreciate your excellent responses.
First, I will say that I was not placing any value on knocking Erik out at this time. There are still too many players left, in my opinion. I'm glad to find that many of you feel that this is correct.
Second, part of what I was looking for in your answers to this post was some insight into how Erik might play his hand. It appears that there is no certain answer. Craig suggested that Erik would fold a worse than average hand, and raise with a better than average hand. How many of you agree? I personally would probably raise with any two. What do you think Erik would do? I was very surprised that he had NOT chosen any of the 4-5 previous hands to raise, and I'm not sure what that suggests about how he is playing now. I guess that there is more than one successful approach to playing a short stack late, but I didn't think Erik's taking T1400 into the 200-400 blinds could be correct, when he (obviously) has some chance of picking up the blinds or getting lucky and doubling up if called by being the AGGRESSOR. However, he might be thinking differently. Comments?
Also, I am curious how Erik would play after the flop if I just call pre-flop. At the table, I thought the same way that Ken did that he will fold about 0% of the time, regardless of the flop, but maybe this is incorrect. Would he really lay down here to a bet? Maybe if he held two undercards, I suppose, but do you think it's possible in other situations, too? I have to think that his remaining 600 is better spent in a heads-up pot with 2400 in it even after he misses the flop than it would be in the BB against only the top hands at the table, likely to triple (or maybe quadruple) him up at best. In the heat of battle, I laid it down largely because I thought there would be no way to steal the pot, and that the T1000 I could lose was too dear to me at that point. I am now obviously convinced that I was in error (and pissed at myself for thinking about it, and STILL folding!).
Third, I am afraid to say that afterwards, I actually thought the best play was to call, and then bet the flop ONLY if I hit it. The reason I say afraid is that Greg has suggested that this is not a good way to play. Let me elaborate on why I think this might be correct, and maybe you guys have more comments. I would very much like to know where I have gone astray if so:
As has been mentioned, regardless of Erik's strategy here, I am likely 2:1 or so pre-flop on average. Getting it all in pre-flop then has the only drawback that money lost is more valuable than money won, so I think I am not quite getting the skewed odds to stack off. But, what happens if I call. If I hit the flop, I am now about a 2:1 favorite against a random hand, so I think putting all the money in is now correct. Again, I don't see how he can fold here, but maybe he can. What if I miss? Since my hand is SO weak, I am likely a HUGE dog here, and I think a laydown to a bet is correct. I think that this makes call, bet if I hit, check and fold if I miss correct.
In light of this more detailed explanation, what do you think?
Thanks in advance.
I posted this in another forum on this site and have just realised that this is the correct one for such a post so I'll re-post here before anyone gets on my case.
Recently I played a PL tournament and found myself in the following situation. There were 65 players at the start of play and £2700 being split 60-30-10 for the first three places. I made it down to the last four. There were 54000 chips on the table. Blinds were 800-800. The short stack is to my right holding 1200 chips (one and a half bets) and being blinded away. I have approx. 11000 and the two players to my left have a fairly equal share of the remainder. The big stacks are refusing a deal for a fourth place finish (given the respective chip positions-fair enough). Short stack is on the button. Both UTG and the short stack fold. I have AKo but decided to check. My opponent checks along. Flop :QQT rainbow. I check and so does my opponent. Turn :J giving me a straight. I decide to bet my straight fairly sure I am in the lead. My opponent, however, made a pot sized raise. I thought long and hard about it but, having played fairly regularly against him in the past, put him on a Q with a low-medium side card (if he had the house he would have merely called). I therefore found myself with a decision. Do I fold and still have a healthy lead over the short stack and almost guarantee myself third place or do I get all my chips in while I am in the lead with the prospect of either busting out or putting myself in a position where I can win the tourney depending on the last card? I went for the get my chips in option. He turned over Q8o. The river was a T, filling him up and busting me. Did I do the right thing? Opinions please
Given your read, it seems you'd be right to get it all in there. But I'm not sure, so let's do some numbers.
If you fold, you have a little more than T10,000? Something like 20% of the chips. I'm going to call the prizes 60, 30, and 10, rather than figuring out how many pounds each spot pays. If you fold this hand without putting any money in the pot, your equity is about 23, in my estimate. Folding to his raise, you have about T8500, or equity of about 19. If you are correct, he has trip Qs but is not full, you win the pot about 77% of the time, for a stack of T22,000. That many chips is worth about 38 in prize money. 23% of the time you're broke for nothing, so going all-in at this time gives you equity of about 29, which is quite a bit more than 19 or 23, so yes, as long as your read is reliable, then going all-in is correct.
How reliable must your read be? If we assume you're right and he has 10 outs, or you're wrong and he's full giving you no outs, how often can you be wrong before this is a break-even play? It turns out if you're wrong and drawing dead about 22% of the time, you break even on the equity. This ignores things like him having KQ, which gives him only 9 outs to beat you, but 3 outs to tie you, or him having a flush draw along with 3 Qs.
So, how confident were you?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg. decision to call and move in was made after the turn, thus there were only 7 outs. Jim
TJQQ on board, Q8 in hand. Fills up with 1 Q, 3 Js, 3 Ts, or 3 8s. On the flop, before our hero had his straight, Q8 only had 7 outs to fill, but by the turn it was all 10.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks all for the analysis. FossilMan, I felt v. confident about my read but my opponent was drawing live against me. What can you do? If you don'y accept that this sort of thing happens then you shouldn't be playing.
While Greg's answer is very helpful, I think that calling before the flop may not be the best way to play this hand. I think a pot-sized preflop raise is much better. Why call this hand? Any flop without an Ace or King leaves you unsure about where you stand, and forced to either bluff, or face a bet with very little idea about what your opponent may have. I would hate to be calling with overcards or check-raise bluffing at this stage in the tournament.
Craig H
I have recently begun putting more time into these paradise poker one table tournies, and I have been doing reasonably well at them. My profit after 31 $20 tournies is $818 or ~$26/tourny. I do seem to get lucky quite often... but am I getting lucky?
My question is when do you push and when do you back off?
I have posted a question on general theory about what your edge is with overcards when you go to the river. If someone has A2o and you have 87s, it looks like the A2o is only a slight favourite. (Can someone verify this).
In these PP tournies you are often shortstacked with respect to the blinds later in the tournament.
When you are in a T400 BB and you have T600 left (after posting) and someone raises when do you call? Assume the table is 5 handed and you have to get into 3rd.
Also assume that there are 2 others with about T600 left, the player who raises has about T3000 after the raise and the other has about T2000. This is a very common situation IMO.
I have been going all-in in this situation quite often, if I think the other short stacks have a reasonable chance of getting through the blinds. My reasoning is the big stack is often raising any hand, so I have a very slight chance of being ahead. Also, I am more often then not less then a 3:2 dog which I am getting. I am pretty much pot committed if I call, so I tend to go all-in right away knowing the raiser will 99% not lay down to a half a bet on the flop.
What do others do in this situation and why?
What is the worst hand you go all-in with here?
Derrick
Definitely go all in here with a decent hand. The big stacks are making a living from pure thievery at this stage in the tournament. I know cause I've done it so many times myself.
Your goal is to win the whole thing anyway, so go all in now and give yourself some ammo to get into first. If you bust out, it's not such a big deal, you were close to doing so anyway. But if you can double up and give yourself a chance to gain the lead, you're in a good position to win 5x the entry fee, AND you're you'll be fairly assured of making 3rd or 2nd regardless.
The worst hand I'd go all in with here is A high, or maybe even a big king like KQ or KJ if the raiser has been very aggressive. In a very extreme situation where the raiser is raising every round, I'll go in with QJ or something like that.
natedogg
Whether you should go for it or not depends upon exactly how big your stack is, how big the other short stacks are, how likely is it that you can make 3rd by folding here and letting others bust out first (this is the most important factor, IMO), what range of hands you put the raiser on, and what you're holding.
You are correct that in terms of chip equity, you are getting the best of it by playing once you put 1/3 or more of your chips into the blind. However, depending upon the factors above and others, you may not be getting the best of it money-wise by playing these hands. Often you will, often you won't.
I would strongly recommend that unless there is still a third player between you and the raiser, that you do not go all-in preflop. Save that bet or half-a-bet and bet the flop. Even though you don't expect them to fold, sometimes they do oblige you. Give them a chance to make that mistake.
BTW, after 31 events, you're doing extremely well. You're either playing very well, or getting very lucky, or a combination of both.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have now played 40 events even, and I placed second once in the last 9 events. I haven't had a spell like this since I started tracking. Another thing to note here is that I also finished 9th once. In the 31 prior events I had not finished lower then 6th. I thought you had to be partly retarded to finish 9th in these events, but I hope I was wrong.
I reviewed my hand histories from these last 9 events, and I think I made a few mistakes... especially when I finished 9th. The table was very loose aggressive right off the bat, and I was getting dealt some good cards, but they weren't hitting or they weren't holding up. For example I was dealt AKo and raised 2 UTG (UTG had limped)... it came back to me capped with 6 people in besides me (7 way action). The flop missed me, and I took one off for a double bet. I caught a K on the turn and check raised (trying to limit the field). Someone had made K's up (I think it was K-8), and I lost. I really don't think I should have taken one off here... I should have feared A's or K's when it had been capped preflop... even if there were a lot of maniacs in the game. Even if no one had AA or KK, people are bound to be drawing to 2 pair or trips with that many bets in the pot. LAG's tend to play AXs for any amount of money (in this case KXs).
I look back overall, and there are definitely times I have gotten lucky in key situations. Even hitting 3 outers etc. There are also many times where people have been drawing to 3 outers against me (or worse) and have hit though.
I think my small edges have been paying off. For instance if I have an overcard late in a tournament, and I go all-in, it seems to be holding up more then its 60% of the time. Also, when I am desparate with 98s, it has been coming in more then its 45% of the time... so there is little doubt that I have been getting lucky...
Another thing that I do that others don't seem to preach is settle for 3rd place when I am in a desparate situation. I tend not to push small edges if I think I can struggle into 3rd. I don't steal against an aggressive big stack etc when there are only 5 people remaining... even if odds are I have the best hand.
I also used to play ultra tight in the beginning until I read your early posts about playing the PP tournies (when you first started playing). I have changed my attitude here, and now I play more of a straight forward ring game approach... until the blinds increase significantly wrt my stack, or I am playing to eliminate a short stack.
Derrick
Me too as it happens, I won about $300 playing the $10 and $20 split games and have now given most of it back. I think that I had a bit of a lucky streak early on, and that my success encouraged me to play too many hands, with predictable results.
Either that or Paradise let you win to get you hooked and then fix the software so you lose. Hang on, forget I said that ...
Andy.
I have not had any positive results at the split tournaments. I guess that is probably because I am far less experienced at O8 (I suck at it), and my results reflect this.
Derrick
These tournies are strange. I feel my best game is hold'em but I have done much better at the split games as well.
Ken Poklitar
If you are good at 2 (or more) games you could make money at both. You may make more money at the game you are not as good at (but still good at) because the opposition is generally weaker. I would guess this is the case between Hold Em and O/8.
In my case I feel I am a reasonable Hold Em player, but I am one of the poorer O/8 players. I would guess that, although you are better at Hold Em you still out rank the field at O/8.
I am horrible at O/8 short handed. I understand how to play (in general) in a full ring game, but the less players in the game the weaker I become.
Derrick
I have also had remarkable success at the PP tournaments, although only the $10 ones.
Also I've played only 14 of them.
3 firsts 5 seconds 2 thirds, 2 ninths and 1 tenth.
This is deceiving tho...I am not fast and loose early; quite the opposite. For example in the 10th place loss I got knocked out in Round III (early). After losing a couple of strong hands I found myself myself short stacked, with less then 500T. I have 77 one before the cut off, it is folded to me, I raise, UTG reraises, Button calls SB calls, BB reraises. I went all-in, as if the set hits I can dominate as chip leader, and if it doesn't, well there's another tourney in 5 minutes.
I notice that once the tables get 5 handed, the players tighten up dramatically, hoping to coast into the money. So I play tight until round IV, then open raise with any Group 5 or better hand. Remember this is in the $10 tournaments so I rarely get played back at.
Comments please?
This may not even be a close call, but I am a beginning player and this situation came up in one of my first tournaments. It was a $220 (including 1 rebuy which almost everyone took)NL HE at Lucky Chances in the Bay Area with 140 entrants. It was in the fourth round with blinds of 50/100, I had an average stack of 2,000 and was on the button with A7s. UTG, a late-position player, and I all limped in. Flop came 6 8 9 two suited giving me nut flush and open-ended straight draws and one overcard. BB, with an above average stack, bet 100. UTG, also with an above average stack, called. The late position player raised it to 400, about one-quarter of his stack. I raised all in. Everyone folded. My intent was to make a semi-bluff move here and so I was not unhappy with the outcome. Was this correct or should i have tried to bet for value? If so, how? I ended up moving into the later rounds, but was relatively short-stacked and ended up busting out before the money (at about 30 -- top 18 paid).
you have an open ended straight flush draw (15 outs) plus an A over card (maybe 3 outs).
You are better then 50% chance of hitting something, but you haven't hit yet, and you are likely behind. I am relatively happy to get everyone to fold here.
Derrick
I think the all in raise is fine on the flop, you may not get paid if you hit if you just call here. Also you have a good shot of hitting.
That being said, I personally would not even see the flop here. I dont want to flop draws like this unless it is the 1st round of an event. Chasing draws in tournements is a recipe for disaster.
I think your raise was fine. You are only a 50/50 to hit your straight or flush. Plus you don't want to let someone in cheap and have a 7 hit the board.
There is T1050 in the pot if I calculate correct. Your all-in raise of 1900 is overbetting the pot but you would rather have no callers. If you do get one caller then it is not the end of the world. A slightly smaller raise like 1000 probably will get the original raiser to call.
Ken Poklitar
If you are prepared to bet all-in on a draw to this hand, then I would have raised preflop. I don't like calling with Ace-rag in NL holdem. What would you do with 4 players in the hand if an Ace came on the flop?
You have position, so I would either fold or raise preflop to try and get heads up.
CH
I agree that the preflop call is questionable. I would definitely not raise facing 2 limpers preflop with a7s. Early in a tourney I might limp like he did. For me it really depends on my stack compared to the average and to the blinds and who limped. It is one of those things that if you do very often you will lose your stack slowly but surely.
Ken Poklitar
It depends on who the limpers are. If they are weak players then the risk of a reraise is low, and the risk of getting two callers is also low. You have a very good chance of either winning the pot preflop or ending up heads up with position.
I agree that it's not a technically sound play, but what it lacks in statistical correctness it makes up for in aggressiveness. This is the stage in a tournament when you can make these types of plays and build your stack.
Craig H
Don,
Just as the others have said, your all-in move seems very reasonable to me. It just don't get no better than that as far as outs go unless you got a pair to go with it. Very fortunate for you and you picked up some chips.
Hate to be nit-picky here, but limping with A7 suited in a NL tournament is ill-advised, even on the button. Beware of flops where you can get trapped with this holding and cripple yourself in one fell swoop.
Best to make this all-in move on the flop. If you wait till the turn and a blank comes, someone might beat you into the pot.
Best wishes, Mike
I think you played the hand correctly, as far as I can tell from here without being there to have a feel for the players involved.
Unlike the other posters, I have no problem with your calling with A7s on the button after 2 limpers. It seems like you're going to see this flop for no raise the vast majority of the time, and if one of the blinds does raise, you have an easy fold since you know they almost have to have a top pair. Since T100 is only 5% of your stack, I don't consider this call to be a mistake, but if you only had T1000, then I would say it's too much of your stack. Key to all of this is an assumption that you can play the hand well postflop (which is made a lot easier having the button).
You should be happy to win it when you did. You have a great hand, and will win the majority of the time even if you do get called (sometimes you'll be up against a hand that's ahead, but never by much). However, you have more equity in this pot by winning now than by getting called, so be glad they folded.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Guys,
One thing which I have started to do on PP tournaments, especially since every tourney has new faces, is whenever there is a showdown, and a player doesn't show their cards, I get a hand history mailed to myself. I can then see their hands; since there was a showdown I could ask to see them in a real poker room.
Obviously this is a lot more polite than asking to see their hands, since I don't have to ask it. And the information can be a huge advantage in a short event like a 1-table tourney.
However, what's the going opinion on this - do they consider this ethical?
M.
Those weapons are there to be used. If you take the time to use them and have the hand histories emailed to you, that's perfectly legit. Everyone else can do it. Why handcuff yourself? I guarantee all the good players are doing it to YOU.
natedogg
I don't consider it even marginally unethical.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
should be defined as the use of means not readily available to all other players or not otherwise in violation of the stated rules. Noting which card has a smudge is information available to all; intentionally smudging the card is a violation of the stated rules.
If hand histories are available to all, then go for it. If they were only available to, hypothetically, you as an employee of the internet company, then not.
I disagree with your example.
Something can be *legal*, but still unethical. If you see a card with a smudge, it would be *legal* to note which it is and use that information, but not very ethical. The *ethical* thing to do would be to point it out to the dealer and ask for a deck change. In this case it is information which all players may not be aware of and therefore construes an unfair advantage.
On the other hand, most PP players would be well aware that histories are available, and if they choose not to use them that is their business.
Pax
We are playing in a $1570 buyin tournament. 135 players have entered. They are going to pay prizes from $2800 for 18th to $78000 for 1st. Twenty six players remain. I am in the BB holding AT offsuit. A former world champion named Phil raises to T1800 in second position. When the hand begins I am the smallest stack with T3400. The blinds are T300-T600 with T75 antes., My table has 8 players. When the action gets to me there os T3300 in the pot. I have T2725 remaining. What do you do?
You are horribly shortstacked and you are facing a likely steal raise from an aggressive player who will pressure your shortstack at every opportunity.
This should be a no-brainer unless you have a tell. This may be your only chance. In ten more hands you will have anted and blinded T1650 more.
natedogg
Well, I think it's a long way from being a no-brainer. Depends entirely on who the raiser is, and even if it's who we think it is (come on, if it's Hellmuth then why not just say so) what kind of mood he is in, how he perceives you and everyone else on the table, and so on.
Without knowing these, I would lean towards a fold. The raiser is not in a steal position and it seems very unlikely that you will be able to win without a showdown even if you call and save the rest to bet the flop. I would be inclined to wait for an opportunity to get the money in first and have an extra chance to stay alive (by everyone folding).
Andy.
You are certainly getting good odds in calling. His raise seems a bit small with the antes so I wonder if he has a big pair and is hoping someone will call.
If you fold you still have 2725 but the 75 ante is eating away your stack quickly.
I probably call and go all-in on the flop. If you choose to fold you need to find a hand in the next 5 or 6 hands to go all-in.
Ken Poklitar
Chico,
I would fold most of the time. The problem here is you have an early position raiser. If he's a solid player he could easily have you out kicked. The only way I believe you can call is if he's been playing more hands than he should. If you think he has a pair of nines or lower you should commit your chips giving you approximately a 50% chance to win the pot.
Another thing to consider is that since you are not in the money yet. He may think that you are holding out to survive into the money and could be just stealing with a couple of blanks. You will not know for sure unless you call him or raise all-in.
It depends upon how Phil has been playing recently, and where you put him at now. If you think a steal is pretty likely, then call now, and then bet the flop in as convincing a manner as possible to get him to fold.
This is kind of like being dealt 88 in blackjack when the dealer has a 9. Whether you split or hit or stand, you're probably getting the worst of hit. Splitting is correct, but only because it loses less than the other decisions.
Being 8 away from the money, I don't think you can play to merely survive. It is going to be a long time, and numerous orbits, before you get into the money. Play to maximize your stack here, whether it is calling, folding, raising, or whatever you judge best.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg and Andy ask what I feel to be the salient question. How is Phil playing at the moment. Unfortunatly I have insufficient data. We had just redrawn for seats two hands before the break. The hand I am describing occurs the first hand after the break. Phil is the other short stack at my table with appx. T5500. I am watching him closly and I observe something I'll call a hitch in his betting motion. I believe now he was merely trying to determone an amount to bet that he would not be forced to call allin by one of the larger stacks. Phil holds AK. I raise myself allin. I win T7000 or go home. If this is not a steal as I originally thought I am in trouble except for 77-99 KQ, KJ or A8 or A9 suited. We are in the ninth hour of play. I would say to all poker players get into the best mental and physical shape you possibly can. The insidious effects of fatigue are always lurking on the horizon. Good luck
Hello all,
I am sure that there has been a post asking something similar to this but I never saw it so here I go....
First off this is in no way intended to be a complaint or criticism, it is just an inquiry. With all the free and inexspensive NL tourneys online the experience FAR outways the price.
Now, are most Online NL tourneys anything more than a crapshoot???? With so much of live NL (I'm assuming here 'cause I am exclusivly a limit player in live games) being getting a read on a player from demeanor, tells etc. how can this work online. Surely u can gleen information from betting and previously play but this is limited.
What I want to know is are there any NL players out there who have experienced success in live games and have played the online tourneys?? What has your expereince been?
My experience has been that my success is closely tied to L-U-C-K. Every time I play I will make it deep into the tourney (circa 30 /200) but invariabley I will either place (maybe 1-6) or take a disgusting beat (most recently 40 players left I have average stack and pick up qq in late position blinds are 50/100 one player limps UTG (a new player just moved into seat with little better that average chips) it comes to me i want button 4 sure but want a caller so I pop it bout 300 a sizable raise. I players fold out to UTG limper who flat calls. Flop come KQ9 rainbow -I'm happy- he checks to me and I think about pushing my chips but dont wanna lose him so I peel off about 750 he flat calls- I am really happy-. Turn comes 10 and suits the board making to clubs-still purty happy. He checks I peel off the rest of my chips another 600 or so he calls. River is a 6 diamonds and I'm smilling till he turns over jj for the 3 outer gut shot straight.-i'm history) So the point is, is it online tourneys? are they crapshoots? or is my game underdeveloped? I feel like 9/10 time I get toasted I have the best of it but then it doesn't seem to matter cause I get toasted more than not!
Good LUck ALL.
Brian,
You can't expect to win a 200 player tournament every time you enter, even if you're against 199 monkeys with laptops. If you're really placing in the top six in half the tournaments you enter (which I doubt) then you're doing pretty well. You will get some bad beats. In the example you cite, I would still be playing on the turn of KQT9 or whatever it is but I wouldn't be counting the pot into my stack just yet - these things do happen. As for wanting callers with QQ, careful what you wish for ...
Andy.
$100+9 Paradise tourney (10 players start with T800, top 3 get paid 500/300/200). Blinds 50-100, limits 100-200. I'm on the button with ~T1500, which is the third largest stack, and the blinds are left with ~T500 and ~T300 after posting. Everyone folds to me and I have QTo. Since I haven't played a hand in a while due to cold cards and most pots being raised/reraised in front of me, and both blinds are short stacked, I figure I have a great chance at a steal. Nah, both blinds call.
Flop is 983 rainbow and both blinds check to me. Two overcards and a gutshot is a decent enough draw, and I might consider semi-bluffing heads up or vs two blinds in a ring game, but I hate playing draws in the middle stage, and since the blinds are left with ~T350 and ~T200 on the flop, I figure both might consider themselves pot-stuck with a hand like ace-high. Also, I have no idea what to make of the small blinds call before the flop as opposed to a re-raise. So, I just decided to check behind and take the free card, and when the board paired 8s on the turn, the small blind bet out and both the big blind and I folded.
I wonder if I should have just bet the flop and prepared to go all-in, since I have plenty of outs against a pair of 9s, 8s, or ace-high, and in the worst case scenario my stack only gets reduced from T1300 to T1000. Comments?
Oh, one additional note that might be worth considering is that the chip leader at the time was a loose, terrible player, who seemed to have no clue as to how to play limit hold'em. I figured it might be good to save as many chips as possible in case I got a chance to double through the terrible player. Should that affect my decision?
-Sean
Holdem tournament. 3 players left. Payouts 40%, 20%, 15% (of $940 prize pool). Before posting blinds, sb has 6k, bb(=me) has 26k, button has 40k. We put up blinds of 1k-2k. Button calls, sb raises to 6k all-in, and all call.
I have Kc9c. Flop comes QcJdTc. I bet all-in (?) and button folds with the comment ``he's trying to protect his hand''. Two blanks come. sb shows A6o (no clubs) and I take the pot.
QUESTION: Did I play this right? Or should I have tried to milk some chips out of the button (at some risk)?
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
I would have tried to get more chips out of the big stack. I really don't see much risk here. If he has an A, he has 3 outs to beat you. The only hand you really fear here is 2 clubs, and if he has 2 clubs high enough to call the raise, he probably isn't going away as is. Give him a free card and see if he doesn't make 2 pair or something.
You could do this and lose, but you'll still come in second, right? The risk here is probably less than the risk you'll have to face later playing heads-up.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I would definitely try to get the button to call. Your risk is fairly small. If he has a K, he has 6 outs to tie you, and you have a redraw. If he has an A, he has 3 outs to beat you, and you have a redraw. If he has Acxc, he has 9-10 outs to beat you, but this is fairly unlikely, and you're still a healthy favorite.
Additionally, you are pretty much guaranteed 2nd place regardless, which means you should not be playing risk averse in terms of tournament chips anymore. Go for broke ;).
I didn't include any specific info on how I would play. I would check the flop, then make a 1/2 pot or so bet on the turn assuming he checked behind. This looks like you are conserving some chips so you can fold if he raises, but at the same time doesn't look too much like a trap, IME. If he calls bet all in on the river. If he ever bets or raises, go all in immediately.
Gotta get chips here. Also the difference in pay between 3rd and second is negligible. You need to get to first. You dont actually have second "locked" because the SB could hit a flush, or fill up. This is all the more reason to get some chips here. It is worth the small risk to finish third if both hands end up beating you because you only lose 5% of the cash (from 20-15%).
This is where you want to make a bunch of small bets and perhaps jam on the river if nothing scary comes. There is a good chance the the button has a pair. If he makes 2 pair, or trips on the turn you are likely to make abig score here.
Nothing ventured nothing gained. And here your risk is low. Both in terms of not ending up with the best hand, and in terms of the cash you are risking.
..this weekend? There's nothing yet on pokerpages or RGP.
1 Paul Rowe (Coronado, CA) $78,255
It's on PokerPages now.
JohnnyD
There was no deal made, he got the entire $78,000+. Funny thing, he offered the guy who came in second place ten or twelve thousand bucks as a deal and he said no, then the very next hand he(the guy who came in second)goes all in with A-8 and gets called by pocket jacks, he gets no help and it's all over. I've never seen somebody lose ten grand so quick before in my life. You could see the disbelief in the second place finisher's face, it happened so fast.
This situation came up yesterday that is bugging me. I don't think I played my hand well in a normal situation, but under the circumstances I will describe I think I made the right choice. We are down to the last table of a 58 player tourney. Total prize pool is $5,300. Usually the top 3 get paid but we agreed to give $500 to the final 7 and play for top 2 $1,100 and $700. My first mistake was agreeing to the deal. With 7 players left chip leader had $4,500 and 3 of us were tied for 2nd with $3,600. Other 3 had $3,000 $1,700 and $1,600. Blinds were 200 and 300 and were going up every round. Next round 200 and 400 followed by 500 and 1000. They wanted to end the tourney to get the money games going since the payout was 100%. Anyways I have 22 in cutoff and chip leader raises to 600 in 2nd position. I push my stack in hoping to win it uncontested. To my disgust sb calls as well as original raiser. sb had AA and original raiser had QQ. I flopped a set and nearly fell out of my chair. Unfortunately the AA spiked a set on turn and lost to runner runner flush on river. The QQ went on to win tourney and AA came in 2nd. I finished 5th. My reasoning was that there was no prize for 3rd so I wanted to win it or come in 2nd. Blinds were escalating too rapidly to sit and wait for a hand so I made a play hoping to make 33-10's or AQ, AJ to fold preflop. I guess I'll never push all in with 22's again.
You are correct, it was a bad deal for you. You and the guys tied for second lost a little over $100 each in equity, and the chip leader lost even more. The 2 guys on the bottom made out huge, with increases in equity of $350 or so.
Maybe more importantly, the chip leader lost the ability to run the game over by raising people all-in and forcing them to fold all of their marginal hands. Likewise, you and the other second placers lost your ability to run over the shorter stacks once the big stack had gotten out of your way for a hand.
As to how you played 22, it may or may not have been wrong. It appears you were down to 5 at the time of this hand, so the new stack counts are certainly a factor you've left out of your post. Also, the real question here is how likely you felt it was that you would win this pot uncontested. If you're going to win without a showdown pretty often, then it's likely a fine raise. However, the mini-raise by the big stack is often a sign that he's trapping. So, based upon his play to date, what did you think of his raise to only 2x the big blind? What did that tell you?
Also, even if you can be sure he doesn't have a big pair, if he calls at all it's a coin toss, plus there is the issue of the players yet to act finding a big hand, as you discovered. Often, unless you have a hand that doesn't mind a caller too much, you shouldn't raise all-in preflop once somebody else has entered the pot. If you do, you have to be very confident in your read that they're going to fold.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"Usually the top 3 get paid but we agreed to give $500 to the final 7 and play for top 2 $1,100 and $700. "
Ick.
This hand brought up some discussion in our weekly home tourney. Rebuy period is over. 6 players left, No Limit betting. Stacks range between T800 and T2500. Blinds are 100-200. 3 players paid (60%-30%-10%). I have ~T1100 after posting the BB.
I have 85o but one person limps and SB only calls. This is rare but I'm happy to get a free look. Flop is 972 rainbow. Everyone checks.
Turn is a 9, everyone checks again.
River is a 6. SB bets 200, I call, limper calls.
I show my straight and collect the pot. Everyone shows some surprise. I claim I got the maximum for the hand and minimized my risk in the process.
Would anyone have raised more here? I suppose I might get called by trip nines, but I could also be trapped by a full house. Most likely though, they both fold and I win the SB's 200. By just calling I think I got extra from the limper who mistakenly overcalled.
Comments appreciated.
KJS
I wouldn't be overly worried about a full house. I can't imagine someone even has a 9. I would guess the SB has 2 pair. I would be more worried about a T8 for a higher straight although that is fairly unlikely.
So the issue of course is if you raise what is the likelyhood that SB calls. Unless someone really has a 9 I doubt they call your raise.
You of course know the players better then I plus you know how they feel about you. If the SB is likely to call a raise from you with 2 pair on this board then raising makes sense. If the SB will only call a raise with 3 of a kind or better, it is probably a waste of a raise and it would be better to call and hope the other player calls.
Ken Poklitar
I think you played the hand perfectly. I mean any raise and you are pot stuck. You cant really raise 200 more (for a total of 400) and then fold--so you risk your whole stack to make 200 more (unless someone moves in on you with trips, unlikely). I think a call is fine. If someone jamd, you can still make a decision.
Only you were there, so only you can judge whether they would've called the raise. If you thought there was a good chance of getting the overcall, and little chance of getting called by the bettor, then you did fine. However, it is pretty rare that you get overcalled on the river in NL HE for any amount, so not knowing the players, I would've raised because I was hoping for a call from the bettor, and didn't expect an overcall no matter what I did.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
One of the two major cardrooms here in Vienna holds a weekly "free" torney with varying games. With limit games they usually offer the following structure:
ATS 50,- (about $3) entry fee, no buy in, each player gets T3000, ATS 30000,- guaranteed price money for the final table (last 9 players). Usually, there are 81 participants.
Unlimited rebuys are allowed for the first 1 1/2 h (three limits a 1/2 h: 100/250, 250/500 and 1000/2000 with blinds 50/100, 100/250 and 500/1000). One rebuy of T4000 costs ATS 250,-, anyone with less than T4000 is entitled to rebuy. During the break, an addon of T8000 for ATS 250,- is offered to anyone. The game then continues with 20 min intervals and no rebuys.
Obviously, the best collective strategy for anyone would be to take no rebuys/addons at all; in reality the game is ultra loose before the break, virtally anyone rebuys and takes the addon, so that after the break, there are still at least 8 tables with more than 1 million in tournament chips in play and a prize pool of more than ATS 40000,- (so the casion has nothing to add). Furthermore, 15% of the prize pool is withheld for a "best overall player" jackpot which is split between the best 3 tournament players of the month according to some point scheme.
As a beginner and recreational player with almost no experience in casino poker, who is generally outclassed by the opposition once the torney melts down to 5 or 4 tables (virtually all poker pros of the region are participating), although I do reasonably well during the first 3 limits, would it be rational for me to even consider taking rebuys/addons? If so, in which situations? What is the best overall strategy for this kind of torneys?
ps: as a poker newbie, I with to thank 2+2 publishing and all posters on this forum which I consider to be the best source on poker info on the internet.
With 15% of the prize pool being withheld, there is a strong rationale to not put any money into this tourney unless you're going to be there for every event of the month, so you have your fair shot at that portion of the prize pool.
You are of course correct about the rebuys/addons. You will maximize your return on investment by never taking them at all. Given what you've experienced, the guarantee by the casino is like most, largely a sham because they know they won't have to pay it. I'm sure if attendence dropped off and the players only were putting in ATS20,000 or less, the casino would drop or modify the promotion.
Addons give you twice as many chips for the same price. Plus, all the chips are devalued because everyone got the first T3000 for free. Surely there must be some people who never rebuy/addon, and this dilutes the prize pool. If I were there, and the players were weak enough, especially as you approach the final table and during the final table, I would take the addon. However, I would play VERY tight throughout the rebuy period, sticking to only top hands and situations, and try to avoid taking any rebuys. However, by that 3rd level the blinds are so big you surely cannot just step away from the table, as you are going to be forced to play something.
Foregoing all rebuys/addons is clearly a winning strategy, but your return on an hourly basis may not be worth the effort, since you will go a very long time between money finishes.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for your reply! As for playing tight during the rebuy period: In HE, I play about 20% of the hands (somewhat more in the blinds), bet aggressivly when I hit hard and fold if I don't - since there isn't much preflop raising during the RB period, this works quite well and doesn't force me into too many hard decisions (which is where I usually screw up if I happen to make it into the middle stages of the tourney with huge blinds and tougher opposition ...)
You remark about EV vs. ROI made me think. - Being a recreational player without any experience except penny ante home games, I didn't give it much thought, but now I did the math on the format above:
Hypothesis 1: all players play equally well, so for the early stages of the tourney, the equity of each player is
EQ = price_money * chips / total_chips.
Hypothesis 2: all players rebuy/addon if it's +EV under the assumption that no future rebuys/addons take place (think pot odds, ignoring implied odds).
If there are no rebuys/addons at all and assuming there is always the maximum number of participants (81), the EV for joining the torney is EV = EQ - entry_fee = 320 ATS.
The EV for the first player to take a rebuy is
T4000/(81*T3000+T4000)*30000 ATS - 250 ATS = 236 ATS
The EV for the r-th player to rebuy is
4/(81*3+r*4)*30000 ATS - 250 ATS
which is >0 for the first 59 players, so 59 players have sufficient odds to rebuy which brings T479000 into play.
After the rebuy period, a simmilar calculation can be done for the T8000 addons, giving 60 players correct odds to addon (Ignoring all other consideration as numbers of players remaining, blinds vs. stack etc.) and bringing T959000 into play.
Maybe someone at the casino did a simmilar calculation as
(59+60) * 250 ATS = 29750 ATS
which is (surprise, surprise) almost exactly the amount of the guaranteed prize pool (Still, I wouldn't consider it a sham, as the ATS 4050,- in entry fees is not nearly enough to pay the dealers, etc. but that is a different story)
In hindsight, of course, the EV of any of the above actions is different:
no rebuys/no addons: EV = ATS 43.85
no rebuys/1 addon: EV = ATS 44.10
1 rebuy/1 addon: EV = ATS -80.76
1 rebuy/no addons: EV = ATS -81.02
I'm well aware that the above assumtions are far fetched, but since the results seem to (at least roughly) fit the facts, I wonder if cardroom managers really use simmilar mathematical models to optimize their tournament formats?
cu
Ignatius
I can almost guarantee you that no cardroom manager does any such calculations. They just estimate how much money the players will put in the prize pool, and then guarantee some lesser amount.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
agreeing with Gregs last statement...as to paying for dealers,etc--that is a promotion expense---the promotion being using the tournament to get people in
the door so they will play regular games when they bust out or finish.
to each his own,but I feel rebuys and addons are good depending on
: rebuys wich leave you with short stack compared to others are a no no
addon only if you will be in the upper (approx) one third of larger stacks...because if you don't, others will, and thus get edge.
don't worry about your lack of experience..remember that in these short events, Luck is a very big factor. and more you play more your experience grows. I would consider this some of the learning expense. lol Jim
The Soaring Eagle Casino in Mt. Pleasant, MI has a hold'em tournament the last Friday of every month. $60 buy-in, one $50 re-buy - $15,000 guaranteed. 1st place also gets a paid seat at the TOC. The field is limited to 203 players max.
I am going up this weekend to play in the tournament, and was wondering if any 2+2ers have tried this tournament? If so, what do you think of the tournament? The Soaring Eagle Casino? Any warnings, suggestions, etc. for playing this tournament?
All comments welcome.
Lancey,
I played in this tournament for the first time last month. My personal story is pathetic: I had good hands cracked left and right, was one of the first to leave the tournament. Regardless, the tournament is decent. 203 players WILL participate, and if you want to ensure a spot, you should sign in on Thursday. Last time, I got there around 5:00 a.m. Friday morning.
Every ta_le in the room will _e in use (my key _etween a and c does not work). Consequently, there will _e some novice dealers, and the ta_les will have 11 people.
Overall, though, the tournament is decent. There is a large variation of players, with complete fish that have lost their livelihood at the 3-6 ta_les to solid players. The play was pretty loose early on (and sorry to say, that's all I can relate to you). I had Aces cracked when I flopped a set and lost to a straight flush with 3-4.
I have never played in any other tournaments this large, so I have nothing to compare it to. If you get eliminated from the tournament early, you should have something else to do, _ecause there won't _e any live action for hours!
Hope any of this helps. Good luck!
Mike
I think you should have composed your reply without using the letter _ (like mine) as that would make it more of a mental challenge. Just hope the "e" doesn't give out.
Andy.
LOL. Yes, I usually do compose it without using the letter _, _ut this _ecame too cum_ersome when I could not use the words _et or _luff when writing a_out poker. Worse, I have two other keys that don't work; luckily, they are the two least used letters of the alpha_et.
Mike
Most players understand that when you are on the edge of the money and someone is all-in and there are 2 or more active players that it is best to check/check to try to eliminate the all-in.
How about when you are in the money? When do you check/check to eliminate an all-in versus to move up the ladder?
I see some players betting and winning a side pot where I would have thought it may be better to check/check.
Ken Poklitar
"Most players understand that when you are on the edge of the money and someone is all-in and there are 2 or more active players that it is best to check/check to try to eliminate the all-in"
That doesn't include me :-). I will play the hand in my own interest and nuts (to be polite) to anyone who doesn't like it.
Betting into a small or non-existent sidepot can be very risky but if I don't do it then that's because I figure it's best for me, and what's best for me sometimes does not include knocking someone out at this stage (close to the money). You gotta think out of the box in this game !
Andy.
I would guess that you do agree not bluffing at the sidepot in the all-in case. The issue I am having is that at my local tournies there are a few players that will bluff and bet at a sidepot. I feel I need to change my tactics in these situations.
Ken Poklitar
Bluffing into a small or zero side-pot is not sensible, for sure.
The key is to know who does play the check game and who doesn't. If a regular checker comes out and bets then he usually has a big hand. If a bluffer bets then you can consider a steal re-raise - though it's risky !
Fortunately it's not difficult to tell who's who, you only have to listen to the discussions when someone makes this kind of bet.
Andy.
If there are players that you know will do this, i.e., they will play their hand the same whether there's an all-in or not, then you simply adjust. If we're on the bubble, I'm a short-to-medium stack, and I bet against you with somebody all-in, there is almost zero chance I'm bluffing. If there is a sizable side-pot, the chances of me bluffing go up as the side-pot gets bigger, and are at nearly their normal frequency once the side-pot dwarfs the main pot. Against me, if I bet into a zero or small sidepot, you can very safely toss your top pair weak kicker.
However, if your opponents are playing their regular game, then you need to consider your chances of being ahead of them, of being ahead of the all-in (since you need to factor in your chances of winning both pots), of catching up to both players if behind, how short your stack will get if you lose, etc., etc. The hard part is figuring out the best play against a player you haven't seen before in this spot. You hate to throw away AQ on a flop of AJ8 against an unknown, while against me it's a pretty safe fold.
You might consider using some table talk. Say to the player something like "Hmmm, you're willing to bet that flop, even with so-and-so all-in? You must have a pretty big hand." Hopefully, their reaction will tell you something.
I've seen guys bet all-in in a NL HE tourney with hands like 56o on a flop of 78A with zero side-pot. Then, when my AJ hits the muck, and the all-in stays alive with 99, the guy says something like "What was I gonna do? I had an open-ender, but I couldn't call if YOU bet ME all-in first". Hopefully I've not lost any control, and I quietly nod to indicate agreement. Then, I pray that he hasn't wised up by the next time when I'm the all-in with 99.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If I believe that I have the best hand, I don't want to check and let him draw out on me...bet,bet,bet. But I will check otherwise, and will not bluff at the "dry pot". Jim
Good answers all.
I think there are cases where check/check works but as you have all said the most important thing is to do something that is +EV. In some cases that is checking it down and in other cases it is betting and hoping to build a bigger sidepot.
I think in the past I was blind to the check/check rule of thumb and have missed some opportunities. A lesson learnt.
Ken Poklitar
You may believe that you have the best hand but if you are only going to be called by something better then the bet may well be wrong, especially if the main pot is small.
Andy.
Right. I am not very likely to be betting top pair top kicker here. I will probably bet a set. Obviously A straight or a full. The interesting situation arises when you flop a small flush and there is no side pot.
A bet cause the pther player with chips to fold say the q of that suit. But the all in may end up in there with the J of the same suit. If the pot is dry you are gaining nothing but allowing the all in to survive where either way you lose this hand, but a check knocks a player out.
Thoughts?
YES. EXACTLY.
The issue is not simply do you have the best hand, but how often will you make more money by betting and getting called, and how often will you make more by betting and getting rid of a hand that would have outdrawn you. As your example illustrates, there are times when betting the best hand cannot gain you a thing. Of course, you'll never exactly when this is, but you have to consider the possibility, estimate it's chances, and act accordingly.
Betting with no sidepot is frequently wrong, unless your hand is so strong that you figure to win no matter what, and simply are hoping to get called and win even more. Betting medium hands here may be correct, but frequently is not. Betting weak hands may be correct much more often than medium hands, because getting the remaining players to fold may significantly increase your chances of winning the main pot, even if it also significantly increases the chances of the all-in surviving.
When you are on the bubble or in the money, it is more often correct to check it down. When you are still a few orbits away from the money, maximizing your own chip position is usually superior to ganging up on the all-in. It may be better for you to increase your chances of winning that main pot from 25% to 50% rather than increasing the chances of busting somebody out from 50% to 75%.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Same as always. Estimate your EV from each alternative, and pick the highest.
One of the reasons to check is that it usually is a plus to you to eliminate somebody on the bubble, and may be more advantageous than merely increasing your chances of winning this pot. But, if you have a good hand, you may want to sell it to the third player and make more. Or, maybe if you flop a weak straight you want to knock out the third player so he doesn't catch a runner-runner flush or full. Whatever.
Just remember that if you're known to check it down, and this time you bet, you're not likely to get a call unless the opposition has a strong hand or big draw. This being the case, you must have a much stronger hand yourself for a value bet to be correct.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
as frequently is the case, we have a lot of good, mixed, answers.....that's one of the things that poker so interesting..... and oh yes, it all depends!! Jim
Just wondering if anyone knows what type of play (i.e. starting chips, round length, rebuy chips) you get in the day and 2nd chance tournies at the Orleans open.
I plan to play the 1st limit HE, 1st NL day tournies and a few of the 2nd chance NL tournies.
Ken Poklitar
You get more play in the main events each day. The second chance start quite a few hours after the noon start time for that day's main event, yet they finish at roughly the same time. IIRC, the second chance tourneys are limited to the first 250 entries plus alternates (if somebody goes broke during the rebuy period, an alternate can take their seat). Even with 250 entries and a $50,000+ prize pool, these events are typically over in 8-10 hours, I believe.
So, the play isn't bad, but it is a bit quicker than a typical "major" event. But, it's a lot more play than most people get in their regular daily events at their home clubs.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
A couple years ago Mike Vento told me that they try to get the 'main' events over by ~12-1 am(by tweaking the limit increases) and I seem to remember that the 2nd chancers get over at roughly the same time(5-6 hrs total play).
I haven't been there since '98 so I may be wrong. FWIW.
BTW I'll be there 7/11-7.
as I recall, Greg is about right. regular event starts at noon...2ndchance event was somewhere around 6,7,or 8....it has to be late enough to allow time for enough players to bust out of regular event in order to have seating space for 2nd chance.
I like orleans tournaments, hotel, and not bad food. Good ring game action. nice variety of events. modest buy in, etc.
good luck in that fist one, it's usually huge seems like about 800 players. Jim
http://www.orleanscasino.com/2001-open-poker.html
Paul
Paul,
I knew the schedule. I was looking for round lengths, chip counts, etc.. I emailed Orleans and they did not respond yet.
I saw on RPG a similar question and they implied that you get 500 or so chips plus the same for rebuys. Also the post said the rounds were 30 minutes.
Thanks anyways.
Ken Poklitar
B4 the flop and I am in early position 2 off the big blind with AKs. I am on the final table and have 1 re-buy available to me. I have about £21,000 in chips and raise £5,000. Everyone folds apart from the small blind who flat calls and the big blind (chip leader) who re-raises me £10,000 more. I go all-in, a re-raise of £6,000 on top of the £10,000 raise. The small blind thinks, then folds and the big blind calls. I turn over my AKs and the big blind turns over KK and I go out. Later I find out that the small blind had AK as well, leaving me only 2 outs to aces.
I thought at the time that I had to go all-in becasue of the pot odds and the fact that I would have a relatively short stack to play with anyway if I lost the hand, but on reflection I am annoyed becasue in the back of my mind I knew that the big blind had a big pocket pair.
What do you think???????
I think your last sentence is the key, what did YOU think the reraise meant from that player? Usually, this means KK or AA, IME. Also, what did you think the SB had (he could have some of your outs)? Could he be slowplaying aces or kings?
You don't state what the blinds werebut I'll suspect they were around 1k according to your raise. So, if you had 16K left, you are not in that bad of a shape if you fold.
You mentionned pot odds. There is 25K in the pot when it's back to you. You raised all-in (16K). So you were getting about 2:1 (31K:16K)and if you expect the BB to call (I would). If you are against AA, you are a 7:1 dog. Against KK, a 2:1 dog. So a raise on your part is not a +EV play if he has aces or kings. And I'd guess barely +EV if he could have QQ or JJ, although I would expect to see AA or KK a good majority of the time, unless he is a moron.
One last thing you did not mention: his stack and the payout. You mentionned you were at the final table...mmmhhh...and you still can rebuy? Does this reraise commit him to the pot? If so I would tend to figure his hand for KK or AA. Are you close to a payout? How much ? How is your stack compared to the rest of the field?
Like you said, you really felt like he had a big pocket pair. I would have folded.
Hope this helps,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
At the final table of an event, given your chip position, I think you probably did the right thing. Granted if you KNEW he had AA or KK you can fold. You dont say what the chip leader had for chips. Although A lot of people dont seem to think it matters if they are covered by 1 chip or 100 chips, I maintain this does matter.
If the chip leader has you by say 5-1 he may move in here with a lot of hands (A-Q, 10-10 etc . . .). Even if he loses he does not lose much. OTH if you are only covered by 1 chip he is basically risking getting busted and his hand selection must vary accordingly.
I will often to ask to have a player counted down only to be told by the dealer that he has me covered, I still feel like I am entitled to know by how much. It effects my play because I believe it effects theirs.
Hi,
This is a hand from last night's small NL tournament. I think I got it right but I keep going broke in this kind of situation so I'm wondering if there's an alternative strategy.
Rebuys are just over. There are about 30 players left from 33 starters. I'm at an 8-handed table with 950 in chips, about average or a bit lower. Blinds 50-50 on the button, and I am to the left of the button.
I have AKo. All pass to cutoff who calls; he has a big stack, at least 3000, has been playing quite loose and quite passively. Button checks his option. Remembering the advice I got here a couple of weeks ago, I raise 200 more and only the cutoff calls.
Flop: KQT, two diamonds (I have no diamonds). Pot is 550, I have 700 left. What do you do? I am a bit afraid of two-pair, because I think he would play any two big cards. I am almost certainly going to get called if I bet because I have recently been taking some chances with a small stack to get back from 200 chips to my current position, and my slightly less than premium holdings have been noticed.
What happened was that I bet all-in, got called by QJ and he hit his straight on 4th street. As it turned out, I was big favourite on the flop and got unlucky. But what would other players do in this situation?
Cheers,
Guy.
Before the flop I think you did fine. To me it is not an automatic raise with AKo in the blind with only 2 players but I think the amount you raised is reasonable.
On the flop you have top pair and best kicker. You say the chip leader is loose. So he could be playing 2 big cards which means 2 pair is certainly possible. But I would guess that more often then not he has 1 pair.
I think I would go all-in just as you did. Results were unfortunate but he did have a reasonable draw. You were a 2-1 favorite on the flop.
Ken Poklitar
I've answered this question before and most people disagree with me. In no-limit when you have top pair-top kicker against a loose opponent out of position, I will check and call all the way to the river. I treat this hand more like a "bluff buster" than a near-nuts holding.
I think playing it that way gets you a lot more money in the long run by giving an opponent with a weaker pair a chance to loose all his money when he may have folded against your raise. You will get drawn out on more often, but as you found out, you will get drawn out on anyways against a player like that- especially if he has a back-up draw as you illustrated.
Here's my point: if you have top pair/top kicker and a scary board comes out, most people think "I have the best of it right now, so I'm going to go all-in and take the pot". The problem is that you will frequently get called by someone with a hand and a draw to that scary board. Since there's nothing you can do about that, you might as well extract some extra money from the situations when your opponent will bet with a worse hand and no draw.
Like I said, everyone disagreed with me the last time I explained this, but I still think it's a valid approach and I continue to do it.
Craig H
It depends, of course.
Sometimes this approach is very valid, sometimes not. The opponent in this thread has been described as loose, but not as aggressive, as far as I recall. That being the case, he probably isn't going to bet his second pair plus straight draw, so by not betting, you're giving him a free card. If this guy won't bet until he makes trip Qs or his straight, then you're putting in zero money while he's drawing, but all the money once he gets there.
Now, if this opponent were aggressive, you'd be getting it all in everytime he has a draw whether he bet or you bet. Plus, under your approach, you'd get it all in whenever he bluffed at you with a worse hand that has no real draw. So, you do come out ahead.
Against passive opponents, your approach is generally not optimal. Against aggressive opponents, it is almost always worth considering.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Guy,
I would like the answers of the other posters much better if I had twice as many chips. Since, the blinds are costing you 10% of your stack every round any raise I would put in makes me feel committed to the pot.
In this case I would raise all-in preflop. There are several reasons why I prefer this action. Since, you only have 950 left, the 200 raise is going to make you feel committed. Only 33% of the time the flop will pair one of your cards, then if you miss, what do you do? If you move in preflop when your stack is smaller you have some benefits. First, you get to see all five cards giving you a 48.7% chance to pair. Secondly, he may fold preflop and decide not to risk losing a large percentage of his stack. Third, if you do get called you usually will be up against a pair giving you a close to a 50/50 chance to win.
I just wanted to mention after you raised that 200 preflop, most players can not play their regular game. If you bet again you are commited to the pot.
If you have more chips, like 2000 or more in this situation you could raise.
Another alternative is to call. Since, you will have position it provides the least amount of risk to your stack. So, when you bet the flop you can make a pot size bet to try and take the pot with the least amount of risk to your stack.
I'm not sure about raising all-in preflop here.
If he passes, I win 100 in chips, which is fairly negligible at this stage. I am not exactly struggling yet but the blinds are about to go up (didn't mention that before, sorry) and I feel like I need to increase my chip count significantly to have much chance. Since he has open-limped with only the blinds left to act, I am fairly sure he would pass to an all-in raise here, unless he is beating me. Risking 900 to win 100 doesn't look good to me.
I also don't like the idea of just checking the flop, partly because I did exactly that in a very similar situation (with a couple more limpers) last week and gave my opponents the chance to flop hands to beat me, which they gladly did.
I am pretty sure the pot-sized raise preflop is the right thing for me in this situation.
The decision I am really not sure about is on the flop. As it turns out this is a bad beat story, but that's not what worries me. There's also the chance that I am losing to a straight or two pair on the flop, or maybe a set of tens, which might affect the decision of whether to bet or not.
Would anyone ever consider betting the flop but not all-in?
I am beginning to think that it's just "one of those flops", and there's no obvious better way to play it.
Cheers,
Guy.
"I also don't like the idea of checking the flop" should say "... preflop".
Cheers,
Guy.
Guy,
I frequently limp in with this hand if I think a raise will commit me to the pot. In your example, you have the blinds and two callers putting in a total of 150, then you raise 200, and get called. Now, there is 550 in the pot, so you move-in. Do you see how you were pot committed at this point?
Let's say you put it all-in, before the flop, now you probably will not get called unless it's by an agressive player. Sure, it's only 150 and you will win that quite often. Sometimes, you will be called by a pair of queens, or even the same hand.
If you raise only two hundred from a position of weakness, the big stack is going to see that you have a playable hand and will try to break you for a small percentage of his stack. In my examples, I'm trying to stress the differences between stack sizes and what you have to do to get more chips.
Mark,
I don't understand why betting 200 pre-flop leaving you with 750 still in hand is committing you to the pot. Against two or more opponents, folding is a clear option if I miss the flop.
I wouldn't be keen to bet all 900 pre-flop, especially if I can outplay my opponent(s) on the flop which I would generally be able to at the level Guy is describing (believe me there are a lot of weak players at this level). By outplaying I don't mean anything fancy, just folding correctly when I'm beaten and getting paid when I'm in front.
Andy.
Andy,
My preferred way of playing this hand in this situation due to my stack size and opponents positions is to limp in. I can then make a pot size bet on the flop without having to commit my stack. Since, I only call for 50, there is 200 in the pot. I can bet 200 without feeling committed whether the flop helps me or not.
If I had raised 200 before the flop and got called there would be 500 in the pot. Now, with 500 in the pot it would cost me more than half my stack. So, I would say that I am committed at this point.
If I thought that any of these players would be difficult to play against on the flop, I'd rather put the whole stack in pre-flop. I could get lucky and get called by a lessor hand.
Due to some kind of mix-up, I managed to ruin my perfect tournament record last night and actually made a final table. I was the short stack when we started, but a couple of people busted out while I was getting nothing to throw chips at, so we're down to six. There is ~$83,000 in play. The limits have just gone up to $5K/$10K with a $500 ante and a $1500 bring-in. After posting my ante I have $1900 left. A five brings it in. Three folds to me. I have (Ts9s)Qh. Pair cards, flush cards, and straight cards are all pretty live. I toss my stack in. The next shortest stack was left to act behind me, and I assumed that he'd fold and I could play heads-up against the bring-in. To my surprise, other short stack called. I don't remember all the details, but the bring-in paired his five on fourth street. I think the other short stack got it all in at some point and won with a pair of Queens. I am pretty sure that he had not started with a pair--I think he caught the Queen on fourth street.
I think I was right to throw it in when I did. I was locked in for $180. Fifth paid $210 and fourth $300. I also think that the other short stack was very wrong to call on third. Maybe he should re-raise if he has a hand, but I think he would have been better served by getting out of the way and hoping I bust out. Even if I don't remember the details right and he started with that pair of Queens, one was dead. If I had known that he was coming in, I would have folded and hoped that he busted out. He had significantly less than one big bet at this stage. It just didn't occur to me that he might call. Comments?
It sounds like you are right, and he was wrong to play. If he had the Qs paired, he should raise your Q doorcard, not just call and invite the bring-in to stay. If he didn't start with a pair, he was foolish to come in after you've gone all-in.
You were correct to play your hand, IMO. With 3 folds, and 3,000 in antes out there, plus the bring-in, you're getting something like 2.5:1 on your money, and even if your 3 cards all suck, you'll win a lot more often than 30% of the time heads-up against the bring-in. Since you're going to ante yourself to death before moving up to any real money, you might as well try to more than double-up here.
If lots of opponents were gambling it up, then you might sit out and try to move up to 3rd or better simply by avoiding conflict. However, you've only got 4 more hands max before you're all-in, and if you catch the low card, you're forced all-in immediately. Given the super-high structure (8 big bets divided among 6 players), there certainly can be some merit to sitting out and watching others get eliminated. Anyone who plays any hand is either going all-in, or watching their opponent go all-in, and probably by fourth street at that. Doesn't take much poor luck to bust out while trying to double through with a big starting hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg Raymer, who frequently seems to know what he's talking about, has stated on at least one occasion that ante-stealing is a very important part of the latter stages of stud tournaments. In the tournaments that I play in, one will frequently see everyone folding for the bring-in in the later rounds. I think that there is an important difference between the tournaments that I play in and the ones that Greg plays in. This is the structure from last night's tournament:
| Ante | Bring-in Limits | ||
| $15 | (on button) | $5 | $15-30 |
| 5 | 10 | 30-60 | |
| 10 | 25 | 50-100 | |
| 25 | 50 | 100-200 | |
| 25 | 100 | 200-400 | |
| 50 | 200 | 400-800 | |
| 100 | 400 | 800-1600 | |
| 200 | 500 | 1500-3000 | |
| 500 | 1000 | 3000-6000 | |
| 500 | 1500 | 5000-10000 |
I recently inquired about a stud tournament at Foxwoods, and the structure on all rounds has the bring-in at about 1/3 of a small bet, which is the norm for "real" stud games. The problem with trying to steal the antes in my tournaments is that the bring-in is getting 5:1 on his call, at least during rounds 3-7 where there is a full table. In the more normal steal situation, he'd be getting about 7:2. I think that this is a significant difference.
At one point last night, we were down to two tables, six players on mine. The bring-in was on my left and it was passed to me. I had (32)Q. The Queen was live. I've played with the bring-in several times, and she's not a good player. I thought that there was an excellent chance that she'd call my raise, so I threw my hand in. With a smaller bring-in, I think a steal would have been almost automatic. On a later hand, I did successfully steal against her with (Q7)K. I think that my previous fold may have helped set that steal up. Or not.
Comments?
You are correct, except for Paradise Poker online, I'm not aware of any regular stud game where the bring-in is half a bet. 1/3 and sometimes only 1/4 seems to be more the norm. And you're right, I call a lot more completions of my bring-in on Paradise than I do at Foxwoods.
However, I think what this means is that you must consider the following as steals.
One, try just calling the bring-in, and then bet fourth street as long as they don't pair their door card. The pot will now contain less than 2 bets, and they're getting only 3:1 to call you, and now only have 3 more cards to catch, rather than 4.
Two, raise the bring-in, and then be prepared to bet again, AS A STEAL, on fourth, just as you would bet fourth street if you had AA or KK in the hole. The only disadvantage here is that it will cost you 2 bets to try and steal instead of 1 bet.
Remember, if you have any kind of a hand, it is probably better than the bring-in, whose hand is 1 low card plus 2 completely random cards. If they're going to call you down when you steal, you do steal a lot less, but as a consolation prize they're going to pay you off a lot better when you do start with a big hand as well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
For what it's worth, this room offers $2/4 and $4/8 stud, and in both games, the bring in is half of the small bet (one chip in each case). In all others, the bring-in is one-third of a bet (also one chip), or as close to one-third as they can get it, e.g., $3 for $8/16.
Thanks for your excellent responses to my Erik Seidel limit HE UTG raise with T1400 into my 400 BB with 84o question below.
A followup:
First, I will say that I was not placing any value on knocking Erik out at this time. There are still too many players left, in my opinion. I'm glad to find that many of you feel that this is correct.
Second, part of what I was looking for in your answers to this post was some insight into how Erik might play his hand. It appears that there is no certain answer. Craig suggested that Erik would fold a worse than average hand, and raise with a better than average hand. How many of you agree? I personally would probably raise with any two. What do you think Erik would do? I was very surprised that he had NOT chosen any of the 4-5 previous hands to raise, and I'm not sure what that suggests about how he is playing now. I guess that there is more than one successful approach to playing a short stack late, but I didn't think Erik's taking T1400 into the 200-400 blinds could be correct, when he (obviously) has some chance of picking up the blinds or getting lucky and doubling up if called by being the AGGRESSOR. However, he might be thinking differently. Comments?
Also, I am curious how Erik would play after the flop if I just call pre-flop. At the table, I thought the same way that Ken did that he will fold about 0% of the time, regardless of the flop, but maybe this is incorrect. Would he really lay down here to a bet? Maybe if he held two undercards, I suppose, but do you think it's possible in other situations, too? I have to think that his remaining 600 is better spent in a heads-up pot with 2400 in it even after he misses the flop than it would be in the BB against only the top hands at the table, likely to triple (or maybe quadruple) him up at best. In the heat of battle, I laid it down largely because I thought there would be no way to steal the pot, and that the T1000 I could lose was too dear to me at that point. I am now obviously convinced that I was in error (and pissed at myself for thinking about it, and STILL folding!).
Third, I am afraid to say that afterwards, I actually thought the best play was to call, and then bet the flop ONLY if I hit it. The reason I say afraid is that Greg has suggested that this is not a good way to play. Let me elaborate on why I think this might be correct, and maybe you guys have more comments. I would very much like to know where I have gone astray if so:
As has been mentioned, regardless of Erik's strategy here, I am likely 2:1 or so pre-flop on average. Getting it all in pre-flop then has the only drawback that money lost is more valuable than money won, so I think I am not quite getting the skewed odds to stack off. But, what happens if I call. If I hit the flop, I am now about a 2:1 favorite against a random hand, so I think putting all the money in is now correct. Again, I don't see how he can fold here, but maybe he can. What if I miss? Since my hand is SO weak, I am likely a HUGE dog here, and I think a laydown to a bet is correct. I think that this makes call, bet if I hit, check and fold if I miss correct.
In light of this more detailed explanation, what do you think?
Thanks in advance.
I would call quickly and unhesitatingly pre-flop. Then I'd bet out on the flop IN THE DARK.
I put Erik on a steal. His likely thinking: "The late positions are the most obvious places from where people steal. UTG, on the otherhand, is the least obvious. In fact, most of the time people will give UTG raisers (and even callers) respect. Therefore, a raise here will give me a big chance of stealing the blinds."
In other words, Erik's play in this instance is strictly psychological. I say strong arm him. Bully him. He is operating from a position of weakness.
BTW, how do you think Erik perceived you as a result of how you had been playing up to this point?
"BTW, how do you think Erik perceived you as a result of how you had been playing up to this point?"
This is a lot more than a BTW, it is key to answering most of the questions in the original post.
Andy.
Yeah.
I cannot recall if I mentioned it in my initial post or not, but this occurred about 10 hands after we went down to 3 tables. We drew for new tables and seats, so I believe he had seen me play very little (about 15 minutes, I probably played one or two hands in a pretty normal fashion with an average stack). That was the first time we'd played together. I look about 30 and male and American and casually dressed in cheap clothes.
I am assuming I was an unknown in his mind.
Thanks again for your posts.
If you call the preflop raise there is 1800 in the pot. With him only having 600 left I would think it is a mistake to fold even if you miss. Since he could be raising on anything with his chip position you still win about 25% of the time when he also misses the flop.
So even though it is unlikely he will fold it probably makes sense to bet out even if you have missed.
Again I am not sure you should call the pre-flop raise but Greg made a good argument for calling in this situation.
Ken Poklitar
Ken wrote: "If you call the preflop raise there is 1800 in the pot. With him only having 600 left I would think it is a mistake to fold even if you miss."
EXACTLY!
Even if you miss, you should probably call after the flop. And, since you'll call anyway, you're better off betting and maybe getting him to fold occasionally.
The big question may be what does Erik think of your play? Have you been bluffing or playing very aggessively? Have you been betting your draws? If he hasn't seen you bet without a big hand, then he may even fold a pretty good hand if it completely misses the flop. And if he does, what a coup for you.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
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Playing my local NL tourney tonight.
My starting stack has whittled down to 3100 from a start of 5000 mostly from blinds and when an Ace flopped against my pocket kings. Some stacks are up to 15k but some are lower then mine.
Blinds are 200-400. I am UTG+1. I look down and see QQ. I raise to 1400 leaving myself 1700. I get one caller who has 1k more then I do. The pot has 3400.
Flop is J82 rainbow. I go all-in with my 1700 and he calls. Turn is 8. River is A.
He shows AK for the rivered win. Now he was about a 3-1 underdog after the flop and the pot was laying him those odds.
In his shoes I would have folded to the all-in bet.
Ken Poklitar
I'm sure you liked his call until he spiked the Ace on the end. His call was incorrect.
Gene (holdemdude)
When the 2nd 8 fell on the turn, I had a sick feeling he called my raise with A8.
Oh well,
Ken Poklitar
I wouldn't call your bet on the flop. I get scared in this kind of situation!
My thoughts would be that you either have AK, in which case well played sir, or AJ giving me almost no chance, or JJ, QQ, KK or AA, giving me slim to no chance.
On the other hand, if you had AK, would you make that bet on the flop?
Guy.
n/t
No way I would call your flop bet.
Nicolas
I wouldn't have folded getting 3:1. You might have AK and I can't lose. You might have AQ and I'm well ahead. You might have a few other hands that I'm beating. The only way I'm screwed here is if you've just flopped 2-pair (very unlikely), or a set (more likely, but still probably less than 5% of the time, especially if you would check a set most of the time).
Basically, I don't put in close to half the money preflop with AK and then fold when the flop is heads-up and not threatening.
Of course, if I had the AK, you wouldn't be complaining about a bad beat, but about losing the coin toss. I'd have reraised you all-in preflop to make sure that the blinds didn't overcall.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I understand what you mean Greg, he should have reraised pre-flop with slick. We agree on that but the fact is that he did not. I also agree that he is somewhat commited but since he did not reraise, he can still let it go having missed the flop.
If Ken has a pair other than AA or KK, his AK will win about 25% (3:1) of the time on the flop. BUT, if Ken has aces or kings, that win rate goes down dramatically. If he has AJ, your aces are no longer outs.
Sure Ken could have AK or AQ but getting 3:1 is not enough to consider calling, IMO, because you are in the lead only against AQ. I don't think the pot odds are big enough considering what he could have. Make it 5:1 and it's close, IMO.
Comments?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
This is kinda the reason I posted this hand.
As I said in my original post he has the odds to call my flop bet if he knows I have QQ. The issue of course is he doesn't know what I have.
So I did some calculations. IF I only raised with 99+, KQ+ or AT+.
36 ways I have AQ, AT, KQ which he is a 6 to 1 favorite.
18 ways I have 99, TT, QQ which he is a 3 to 1 underdog.
6 ways I have AA or JJ which he is a 50 to 1 underdog.
12 ways I have AJ or KK which he is a 6 to 1 underdog.
9 ways I have AK and we are tied.
When I average out things he is actually a slight favorite (51%) to win the hand against the types of hands that I may raise with. Even if I say I would raise with 88 and 77 he still wins 45% of the time.
So I guess he made a good call.
Ken Poklitar
... do you really raise when UTG+1 with KQ (or KQs), AT (or ATs), AJo or say pocket nines at a full table early in the tournament ?
Of course, there are times to do so but I would not say that it is a routine play for me. Considering this, the range of hands I could have in this situation is smaller. So, I think against me, a call is a mistake.
Plus would you go all-in the same way with these holdings (on the flop)?
Against a player who raises a larger range of hands, maybe a call is fine.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
It depends.
Mainly on who the pre-flop raiser is and how often I think he will bluff in this spot. Against a lot of players I would be inclined to call if I think he would bet AQ (which I would in his shoes against most opponents).
Andy.
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Limit tourney, middle stages. You have 1300 in chips at the 500-1000 level, blinds of 200 and 500, with the blinds approaching. What's your move, when, and what kind of hand are you looking for?
Earl,
First pray to the poker gods. If that don't work here's what I do most of the time.
If I'm in late position, and a player enters the pot that could have a small pair compaired to my overcards I'll call his raise. I'm trying to give myself a 50/50 chance to win. If I think that he is likely to come in with a pair of eights then, I want 9T or better. They're better if they are either connected or suited, but not necessary. I feel at this point I'll be getting action anyway, so I will do it to at least one player that I have a good feeling about there holdings.
By the way, I was playing a supersatellite in May. The blinds were 50 and 100 and I had 200 left. I was getting the most god awful cards. Well, I had the big blind and a older lady pushed in her stack in early position. Everyone folded. I look at my cards and I have 47 offsuit. I decided to push it in. Well, this time I got lucky. I paired a seven on the turn, and she had AJ suited, but didn't catch. She made sure I seen the hand.
I'm telling you this story because I think it is better to play the blinds than early position. I would rather play a hand that I didn't have to go through so many players, especially when it does not have much chance.
Mark had a good point--you want to play against as few players as you can.
play any pair, any ace,any two cards 10 and above...if you do get any of this, you should go all in..no need to save the 600.
if none of those hands come, then when you are on the big blind you want to think about a bluff. If blinds have passed and you have only 600 left then you must lower you requirements. Jim
I agree with the other posts. I think you still need a hand when from early position. At least suited cards, connected cards, big card, many pair etc . . . Interestingly In a WSOP super I was in a similar situation and moved in UTG with 3-3. This was a mistake. I am a lock to get called, and I am even money at best, but probably much worse. I am encouraging 9-9 to shut out the rest of the field (which is what happened).
I think what you do depnds on who has acted. If you KNOW you can be heads up (ie you are the BB) you can play nearly any 2. The more players the better your hand needs to be. SO UTG still needs to be better then the button, and the BB will be the losest.
Interestingly what you are hoping is that someone in middle position makes a large opening raise and you can come "under the top" with a ,medium pair, or a hand like K-J, or 5-6 suited. This way you are likely to only be against 1 player.
Just remember that small connectors, suited or otherwise, don't play very well in this spot. You're better off with a bare King or even a Queen when it's probably going to be heads-up and you're all in.
Andy.
the answer is that its the middle stage. you must not worry about lasting here as you get no value from it. you want to get chips. so pick any hand that does well with lots of players and limp, or pick any spot with any hand where you think you have a chance to rob the blinds and raise.
Down to to table in NLH tourney, blinds are 200,200, I have 6000, that is above average.
I am dealt KK in early position I raise 500, an aggressive and quite tricky player in the second blind re-raises 2000. (A perhaps significant point is that in the rebuy stages of a tourney previously I won all his chips when I raised pre-flop with 87s). I call his reraise- would any of you have gone all-in?
The flop is A63 rainbow. He checks, I bet 1000 he calls. My "logic" for doing this is that I know he will bet the turn no matter what he has if I check.
Turn is another 6. He checks, I bet 1000 for the same reason as above, he calls. What would you have done on the flop and turn?
River is another 6 - he checks- I check. Would any of you have bet here? I am reasonably certain I am beaten and even more certain that I will not be called if I am winning. What do you think he had?
I would assume he had a little Ace and was really scared after you called his PF raise but felt he had to call down with top pair.
I would have made a substantial re-raise pre-flop.
you stated that his raise was 2,000 but you didn't say how much he had left, to me that would be an important factor in deciding what to do next.... if he has only another 1,000 or so I would probably move in....if he has 3,000 I guess that would call, wait for the turn and if it is a blank, bet 2,000 at him and put him on a dceision. However, if it were some other player, I might sonsider folding the kings at the final table??? Jim
Sorry typo in my post - were at the 2 table stage. My opponent was the chip leader with about 12,000.
in that it case it appears to be a big stack stealing from you---with that thought I would risk it all and move in,,,he is not likely to have aces, and will see that you really do have a hand---if he has A,K and calls, he will be disapointed to see your K,K!!my bet is that he will fold. Jim
You don't mention how many chips he has. That may change how I play the hand. I probably re-raise all-in preflop. The size of the pot is enough to take it down with no battle. If he has AA then oops.
You say he is tricky so he may check with an Ace but most players that re-raise preflop would lead the betting. He has played the hand like he has a middle-big pair. And you played it more like you have a decent Ace except for the river check.
With almost 6000 in the pot before the flop, I am not sure if betting 1000 is correct. I may check and see what he does on the turn.
Once he checks the turn, I would be surprised if he has an Ace. You say you don't want to check the turn since you will induce him to bet the river. Will you call the river bet? If you think he is tricky enough to play an Ace or pocket aces that weak postflop then the way you played things was fine. I probably go all-in on the turn.
Once he checks the river, I again would be surprised if he has an Ace. So if you bet will you be called by something other then an Ace or a Six. If he has a decent pair he may call.
I wouldn't doubt he shows QQ or KK.
Ken Poklitar
He had AA (for the 2nd time in 3 hands!).
Bad luck.
I think you have to choose--either go all in or get out. KK is about as far from a drawing hand as you can get, so there is no reason for you to want to see any more cards. By just calling, you are giving the other player a chance for nothing. This is particularly the case if you intend to bet into an ace on the flop.
Hi all,
I'll be in Vegas from the 4th-8th and I'd like to play some small hold 'em tournaments (prefer no-limit) just to get some more experience at tournament play (I have very, very little). I'm looking for mostly under $50 buy-in tournamnets and maybe a $100-$150 one that has more than 2-3 tables and a decent payout.
What I've found so far is that lots of the small cardrooms have small daily tournaments, but I don't have any way to pick which ones are the best.
Can anyone help me out?
Thanks a lot,
Paul Talbot
Check with The Mirage. Their tournaments are well run and usually get a good turn out. Plus, when you do get knocked out, there should be plenty of games to get in.
Do they also show 7csH/L tournaments?
The Orleans has a 7CS H/L tournament each Saturday night at 7pm. That's the only one that I am aware of.
JohnnyD
The Orleans Open begins on the 7th. On the 7th the Orleans 2nd chance tourney is No Limit. It costs $125 with an optional $100 rebuy. It is limited to 250 players. Signup is at 5:00 p.m. Tourney starts at 7:00 p.m..
If I am unfortunate to bust out early in the Limit tourney during the day I will be playing the 2nd chance.
Ken Poklitar
Thanks Ken, maybe I'll see you there! Most likely I'll be wearing a ball cap with the Big Ten Conference logo on it. Say hi if you see me.
Paul Talbot
Talbot,
Since, you will be going when the Orleans is about to hold their major tournament, the $20 buy-ins they have may not be available.
I suggest you budget a little more money and try the No-Limit Hold'em Tourneys at the Mirage on Tuesdays and Thursdays. In my opinion, these tourneys allow you to use your skill as comparied to the Orleans. The limits at the Mirage increase after a half hour, and without antes. On Tuesday they are $60 with unlimited rebuys for $40. I usually plan on spending $140 on these, so that's what I suggest you budget. If you play the one on Thursday, it's $120 with one optional rebuy for $100. The structure of the tournament is the same on both days, just the difference in rebuys. By the way, the Mirage usually has anywhere from 50 to 90 players depending on the crowd.
The fields at the Orleans will be large. The evening events will be 250 players.
Good Luck
Mark
Thank you everybody. It sounds like the Mirage is the place to start at.
Game is down to 3 people. ($20 tourney)
Limit is 1000/2000, I have about T~3800 before posting the BB. UTG just lost a pot, and has only about T~800 left (so goes all-in by next blind), SB has T~4200 before posting.
SB steals very much with all kind of crap hands. UTG folds, and now here comes...SB raises me. I cant figure out why he raises with UTG all-in in the next round, but IMO SB is such a bad player, he would still raise with anything. I have ATs. Now I thought quite some time, and at the end I called. My reasoning was, that I could very well have him dominated, and I have position on him. If he has a worse A, and a ace flops, I probably can get him all-in (almost), and win the tournament. Postflop he's also a weak player. I think now however that I should have folded, and almost certainly secure a second place. What do you think?
Anyway, flop came A Q 9 r (or something). He bet, I raised, he re-raised me all-in, I called. He has A4o, but rivers the other 4, and I'm out. I think he played it horrible, but I also think I played it bad, by calling preflop. However, I was right that I had him dominated, so if he didnt river that 4, I would probably have won the tournament.
What would you have done?
Thanks
I think you have to fold preflop. I make the same mistake myself more than I should, but when you step back and look it is much better to wait till the short stack is busted before getting too involved.
n/t
n/t
Ikke,
You did beat UTG? I'll assume that you came in second. If this is the case you played fine. You were just unlucky that you were rivered.
Good Luck
Mark
No, I didnt beat UTG, because he folded (the hand after this hand he had to post the BB), and it was an all-in match between me and SB, and he rivered the 4, so I lost to two pair.
Regards
If you are happy with 2nd place you can fold and hope UTG loses his BB hand.
If you would rather have 1st I think you played it fine. He got lucky against you.
Ken Poklitar
Ofcourse I would rather have the first place. But in this case, against a weak opponent, I think (having thought about it) have a clear fold, since I would have a big edge heads up (assuming my read is right, that I'm a better player). So in this case I think it all depends on the player you're against. If he's a good/excellent player, than call/raise. If he's a weak player fold.
Regards
Well, even though I advocate folding, it should be noted that you can't have that much of an "edge" headsup when the blinds are 500 and 1000 out of 8000 total. It's going to be a crapshoot regardless. But I think if you do the EV calculations, the few times that you come in third if you call make folding correct. As many posters like to note, even loose aggressive players sometimes get big hands and in that case you are screwed with AT.
I agree that my edge isnt too big heads up, although I do think it should be taking into account in this decision.
Regards
Why would SB raise in this situation? If I was the SB and I thought you were very likely to fold I would raise here as well. I am bettering my position for when you and I are heads up.
Derrick
" If I was the SB and I thought you were very likely to fold I would raise here as well. I am bettering my position for when you and I are heads up. "
I would defend my blind in many cases in this situation, because I can figure the SB only raises because for the reasons you state. So, if he paid attention, and knows that I'm a bit more than an average player, he should never have raised IMO. He's being greedy, where he shouldnt be IMO. If he's right and I fold he only has a small edge, if I play with him, he risks his whole stack. Not a good bet IMO. It looks like the WSOP, I dont know exactly which year, where Bonnetti went all-in against another guy, who both were the big stacks, and Bonneti got bust out, where the other guy who folded even hadnt got enough money to pay his blinds. He got well paid for his second place. In this case it cost me $20.
Regards
This is nowhere near the Bonetti/Bechtel hand. The hand is entirely different. Neither had as large a percentage of their stack involved as you did. Bonetti played the hand badly, because he did have so many chips. Your problem was the opposite, you had no chips, you had too much invested. If he believed you were likely to fold he should raise. The blinds (I assume) totaled 1500. He is increasing his stack by 1 third by raising if he takes it. He had an ace (which I understand did not have to be the case) he should raise here despite the fact that the third player is almost in. This is true because if the third player gets through the blinds and wins a hand he suddenly has a competitive amount of chips. Not true in the Bonetti case.
You're right....it only felt like the Bonnetti hand afterward :-)
Regards
If you are even thinking of folding ATs here you are playing too tightly. If you are playing too tight three handed with blinds 18% of total bankroll, then it becomes correct to steal with any too cards. In other words he is playing correctly because you are playing badly.
Now lets do some calculations. The totals you give do not add up to 8000, Also you would both need more than 4000 for two bets preflop and three post flop. I will spread the extra 800 out and assume that your reraised all in on the flop.
Before hand (You, RHO, LHO) = (3500, 3900, 600).
Now lets say you fold this hand, next hand you friend raises UTG and you get something like KJs or in fact any other two cards and have to fold again.?!?!? Just to be consistent. Its two random hands heads up, after where there are two possibilities.
(2000, 6000, 0) or (2000, 4800, 1200) Now if we work out you EV we get.
EV(2000,6000,0) = 20/80*100 + 60/80*60 = 70
EV(2000,4800,1200) = 0.3*100 * 0.4*60 + 0.3*40 = 66
Here I have made a guess at the relevant proportions of (first, second, third) when the tournament is still three handed after ‘UTG on first hand’ has had his all in. I have also rounded up a bit to try and cater for you being dealt something like AA on the nest deal and plucking up the courage to bet.
I have probably underestimated the effect of dropping from 3 to 2 players, but about $6 feels right.
This gives an EV(Folding) = 70*.5 + 66*.5 = 68.
Now what happens if you reraise pre flop, and get put all-in. If you win the position is (7000, 400, 600) We have something like
EV(70000,400,600) = 7/8*100 + 7/80*60 + 3/80*40 = 94.25
Let P be the probability of winning this hand.
EV(All-In) = (1-P)40 + P*94.25 = 54.25P – 40.
Now the break-even point for folding/all-in is given by solving
54.25P –40 = 68 or P = 51.6.
So going all in is better than calling whenever you have better than 50% against a random two cards. Certainly this is true for ATs.
If he really is raising on any two cards, then I think you should reraise rather than call. The usual reason for just calling is that you can bet the flop whatever hits, and give him the option of making the mistake of folding. However if he has 42 and the flop comes something like KJ9r, then he isn’t making a mistake by folding. So you want his money in preflop.
In your next few tournaments, try bet/raising any two when it gets to two/tree players, just to see what it feels like.
"The totals you give do not add up to 8000, Also you would both need more than 4000 for two bets preflop and three post flop. I will spread the extra 800 out and assume that your reraised all in on the flop"
Sorry, I did not have the handhistory, and posted it a bit in a hurry. I know for sure though, that UTG couldnt pay his blind next round, and that my and SB stack size where about equal, although his stack was a little bit larger (he could put me all-in).
"If you are even thinking of folding ATs here you are playing too tightly. If you are playing too tight three handed with blinds 18% of total bankroll, then it becomes correct to steal with any too cards. In other words he is playing correctly because you are playing badly."
Normally, if UTG could pay his blinds and has a decent stack size, I would never ever fold ATs 3-handed.
"(2000, 6000, 0) or (2000, 4800, 1200) Now if we work out you EV we get.
EV(2000,6000,0) = 20/80*100 + 60/80*60 = 70
EV(2000,4800,1200) = 0.3*100 * 0.4*60 + 0.3*40 = 66"
You only take stack size into account. I'm not sure if it's linear proportional (as you state) with your chances of winning. It's an estimation, but can you explain me why you think this is a good estimation? (In some cases I think a big stack is more than linear with your chances on winning; it could be deception though). What about edge? (although minimal, due to the huge blinds).
"If he really is raising on any two cards, then I think you should reraise rather than call."
Not exactly, he wouldnt raise with 24, 72 etc, but would with J4 etc.
"The usual reason for just calling is that you can bet the flop whatever hits, and give him the option of making the mistake of folding"
My reasoning for just calling was, that he's weak postflop, and therefore that I can control him. But with this huge limit, it also would be minimal, so you could be right.
"In your next few tournaments, try bet/raising any two when it gets to two/tree players, just to see what it feels like."
I think you think I'm too tight, but see my point above; I would never ever fold hands like AT, any ace in this situation, IF there were somewhat more equil stack sizes. After reading your post however, I'm convinced that I should have called/raised.
Overall very convincing post/math. Thank you very much for your insight!
Regards
Im sorry this is a no brainer re-raise. Just get it all in preflop if he lets you. You almost certainly have him dominated. Also even if he is ahead he ocld easily have a hand like pocket eights, in which case you need to see all 5 cards anyway.
You have way to much money involved in the blinds here. This is automatic.
You're probably right...I havent got much experience with tourneys; I mostly play ring games. I know a lot more after reading all these posts, but I had great difficulties when I played this hand. Now it's a no-brainer.
Regards
The unique 5-3-2-0 payout structure of PP tournaments means that there would be much more of a case for folding if there were four players left. Seeing that there are three, I think you have to play. I see nothing wrong with the SB's play of the hand.
Andy.
hello -
I am playing for the third time in the European Poker Champs next week in the £200 buy-in ($280) Omaha High-only (Pot limit) tournament and also possibly in the £500 ($700) one.
Having competed a couple of times before and playing lots of Omaha I am curious on how loose you have to be (if at all!) succesful in big tournaments.
I am normally "a rock" and quite frequently this leads to final tables in smaller tournies - but in the larger ones playing rock solid does not seem to count for much (I have reached the last third of the field on both my two previous encounters - but I do intend to do better this time).
I play the normal big hands like AA78, AA10J and AKQ10,KKQJ etc, single or double suited as well as the rundowns like 5678 and 789J (one gappers) and sometimes 3 card hands from around the back (say AcKd10c4s).
With 75 min rebuys, 2-3 minutes pr hand and around a 30% calling rate that means just 10-12 hands played before the buyins end.
Now - I reckon there are a few ways of getting there:
1. play generally looser during the buyins
(more 3 card hands to get a 40-50% calling rate)
and hope that you flop something big
2. bet your _draws_ (top two pair, flush and straight
draws) instead of just checking and calling them
3. play like a rock for half the time
(ie start loose and then tighten up
(added advantage of not appearing to be a rock)
or
start tight and if you do not hit anything
loosen up).
or maybe
4. I shall continue to play like a rock and hopefully get some big pots during the buyins.
the runners will be a line-up of europes pro's (some of them playing quite loosely) and the best of the british players + a few decent part timers (like myself - having said that I never feel intimidated in Omaha: I just play my normal game and form is good after making the final in my last small tournament + a 50% profit in 2 hours in my last session of cash Omaha).
Having read "Championship Omaha" a couple of times I tend to play more or less according to that book - while TJ and Tom McEvoy's conservative style is very good for cash games I feel there is not good enough tournament advice ("play your game and you will get there" is maybe too simple an answer) in the Omaha high sections and are asking for some advice.
thanks in advance.
OmaHal
some believe that in order to build their stack they will be less tight in the earlier rounds--even to point of risking elimination. I can not be quite that bold.
I am more willing to relax starting requirements only if multi-way pots which offer bigger payoff.
remenber that in P/L you should win some pots on a bluff..very important..so you don't want to show many hands which look weak. If I were to guess at why you have not finished better, I would guess that this may be a weakness since you refer to "rock". lol jim
Hal,
Just play your best and you have every chance. Deciding to play tight or loose is not going to win the money though, you just have to adapt to the situation as of the now. You need to know when to change gears. A good starting point is your stack size compared to the blinds - big stack, try to get in cheap (especially in Omaha) and flop something that can break someone, small stack, play more aggressively.
Good luck,
Andy.
Yes, I like Andy's post. Don't try to change your game as such, but try to adapt to each hand as it comes along. Be thinking how you expect each opponent to play this hand, given what has happened to them recently and their current stack size. If you have a reasonable hand, half the table has folded, and your analysis indicates the blinds won't want to play without having top-notch goods, then you should be raising to steal the blinds. If your analysis says the blinds WILL want to play, then either fold or just call. Maybe they want to see the flop, but won't raise without the goods, meaning that if you flop big they'll pay you off while only holding medium.
Each situation is unique, and you need to think about each one as it occurs. Also, make sure you pay very close attention to your stack size, and know at what point in the hand you're likely to be all-in. No point in calling the flop because you think you can bluff the turn if you or your opponent is going to be so short-stacked that there's no room for a bluff, eh?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I just played in the no-limit event at the Bicycle Club's Stars and Stripes tournament and had a very disappointing experience. It was $125 buy-in with one optional $100 re-buy. The initial buy-in got you T500 in chips and the rebuy T800- which you could make any time for the first hour.
My table was extremely aggressive. There was somebody going all-in on almost every hand. I've seen this type of thing before in no-limit rebuy tourneys, but it didn't really slow down after the rebuy period. It was very difficult to steal pots, because a "normal" raise would invariably get called or reraised, so I altered my approach and tried to see the few flops I could relatively cheaply and try to trap somebody when I hit a hand. (from time to time you could see a multiway pot for the size of the BB, an all-in bet would then happen on the flop).
I rebought at the end of the first hour and had T1200 in chips. I was on the button with AKs and a very loose, aggressive player UTG raised to $200 and there was one caller in front of me. I knew that a reraise would probably get me heads up with the UTG maniac, but I also knew that he would very likely re-raise me all-in with almost any holding. I reraised to $500 and UTG (who had me covered) pushed his stack in. The initial caller folded and I called. The board came x-x-K-4-x. He showed K-4 off and I was done.
Now I've had worse beats, and I've been knocked out of NL tournaments earlier than that- but what bothered me about this tournament was the feeling I had that I had absolutely no chance. Can someone offer some advice about how to better approach this type of tournament situation?
Craig H
agreed, I don't like that action either. Some say "if you can't beat em, join em", but I can't embrace that. It may not be the best, but what I do is to try to be extra tight on starting hands and hope I catch enough of them till play gets to a more normal pace. Jim
You got all your money in, plus almost 50% extra in dead money, while you were a big favorite. Seems hard to complain about that, you know.
I don't like your reraise to 500. You're asking for someone to play back at you, or at least call. The original raiser is getting close to 3:1 on the call, and if he just calls, the other caller almost has to come in now also. With 2 opponents, you're probably not going to win the hand unless you improve your hand to a pair or better. You should have reraised all-in preflop, and made them make a real decision. If K4 still calls and beats you, then so be it. You can't prevent people from being stupid, and given the situation, you weren't going to be able to win this pot no matter how you played it.
You have 2 other options. One is to fold. I wouldn't pick this, but I think it is better than making a small raise. The other is to flat call and intend to fold if you don't flop something. However, in this case you would've outflopped the guy and still lost (I mean come-on, if this guy will go all-in preflop with K4, he sure ain't folding it on a K-high flop). So, only the first option would have left you with chips after this hand, and I'm pretty sure that folding AK to a single raise and a single call is not a winning strategy.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have not played in the LA area this year, but in 2000, I played in eleven tournaments at Hollywood Park, Crystal Park, Bike and Commerce. In all of these tournaments, the play was as you discribed. I managed to finish in the money in four of the eleven.
As I'm sure you did, I caught on to how they were playing pretty quickly. I decided to play as tight as I am capable. And to see flops as cheap as possible and if I hit the flop, just go all in. You'll get paid off. You can't play the "book" style in these tournament where you raise 3x, etc. It doesn't work.
Once it gets down to about three tables, the play gets more normal. Most of the maniacs have busted and you can get back to good strong agressive and proper tournament play.
JohnnyD
Hi everyone,
Yes, I am headed for Vegas next week for the Orleans Open. Should be there for two weeks, not just playing poker, but should be in most of the NL/PL events during the first two weeks. Staying at the Mirage and will be playing some NL tourneys there as well.
If anyone sees me (picture available at www.pokersoft.co.uk 'About Me' page) please do come up and say hello as I owe everyone on this forum a drink for helping me come this far !
Andy.
Andy,
You should stay at the Orleans. They have the best cocktail waitresses.
Good Luck
Mark
I was in a limit holdem tournament with three tables left. Seven places would pay. Blinds had just gone up to 400/800. I had 1200. I was second to act after the blinds, and was dealt AQo. The player UTG (with a stack of about 5000) raised to 1600 (remember this is limit). I correctly put him on small or medium pair, due to comments he had made earlier. I figured this was my best shot and called 1200 all-in. Everyone else, including blinds, folded. His pair held up, so I lost and was out.
Did I play this right?
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
at least you could feel good about being correct on what he had...since the blinds were so near you, seems little question that you did right...you had about 50-50 chance and may not get better...better luck next time. Jim
As nice as it would be to be the 1st one raising, with only 1200 and AQ I think you did the correct thing.
Ken Poklitar
You're getting 2:1 on your money here, and his stack size should prevent anyone else from overcalling with a weak hand and beating you. So, if you think you're about 50:50 to beat him and you're making 2:1, it seems to me that you have to call. If you fold, you will get to raise first to act next hand, but you will usually end up with a bit worse than a 50:50 chance at winning that hand, and you won't win as much pretty often also.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Dirk,
Yep, you did the right thing. You've got one more hand b4 you have to commit 2/3 of your stack in the BB. I'd move in 99.9% of the time here unless your UTG who raised had cobwebs on his/her chips.
I'd probably move in here with any 2 faces, a decent ace, or any pair with time running out and pray for the best.
Best wishes, Mike
This situation came up in a NL tournament simulation and created some interesting questions as to proper play of the hand(s).
Final table, down to 8 players, stardard payout heavy at top 3 spots. UTG is shortest stack and raises all-in say 2.5x blinds.. UTG+1 smooth calls (2nd chip leader) and cutoff (medium stack) reraises all-in...
Questions are this: We are on button with a Pocket Pair: What is the correct play here assuming:
A. we are chip leader with TT, JJ, QQ, KK, or AA
B. we are equal to medium stack, same set of pairs.
C. we are equal to short stack, same set of pairs.
I am assuming that any other hand beside a pp is trashed in this spot. Is this thinking incorrect?
And i am also assuming given 8 players still in action a few situations merit playing, possibly only KK or AA as chip leader and all else mucked (?).
Lastly, reason i find this so interesting, is if the worst case scenario were to happen: Passing on a +EV situation and having BOTH all-ins survive...
Thoughts, comments, criticism greatly appreciated...
-Ray
Ray
I am not the expert on no limit, but I will put in my two cents anyway. The primary consideration that I think dominates this situation is that when two players go all-in against each other, anyone else who is not involved is automatically profiting from the situation. The reason for this is that a non-participant in the hand will automatically advance to a higher spot when someone else is eliminated. I would play AA in any of the situations, because it would obviously have a +EV, but in any other case, the EV of folding would most likely be much higher than the EV of playing would be, even considering the unlikely case of both all-in players surviving the encounter.
A. If I had AA, I would reraise all-in without hesitation. If it was legal to do so in the cardroom, i.e. they would not declare your hand dead, I would flip my aces face up to discourage anyone else from calling, and for psychological effect. With any other pair, I would fold it and hope that at least one player was eliminated.
B. I would again reraise all-in with aces, same as above. Anything else I would fold. I wouldn't want to get involved with this hand and come out on the losing situation of a major confrontation, but with aces I would take my chances, knowing I was going in with the best of it.
C. If I was equal to the medium stack, I would play the same as above. If I were short stacked, I would be very tempted to play KK or possibly even QQ, but with a raise and a reraise, I would think it too risky to play TT or JJ unless you were about to be blinded out.
I would not play anything except a pocket pair for any substantial raises, especially if it's reraised as well.
Dave in Cali
Thank you Dave,
This was pretty much my analysis as well as the hand came up, however it DID lead to the tough question i posted above.
I think the only difference i would have is as a medium stack, i may well play the KK and live it would depend on my read as to the QQ, possibly even as chip leader.
Reasoning behind this is the situation isnt always what it appears when putting it into text format, what i mean is, UTG could be playing any 2 in an attmept to survive one more round of blinds, also causing UTG +1 to recognize this as well as cutoff's reraise.
I asked this of a friend of mine, as well as asking him if anything would change his playable set of hands if UTG +1 did appear as though he was going to fold to cutoff's rr. Or if he was still 20 spots from the money..
Either way, the more i explore each situation i am presented with, the more i love the complexity of varying situations, and correct/incorrect plays based on a certain scenario..
Again thanks for the response, understand it IS a tough one... =)
-Ray
NL holdem is an incredibly complex game. I would probably play it almost exclusively if it were commonly spread. I will play in every NL tournament I can from now on, the excitement was just too good to pass up again. Good post too, you presented a very interesting situation.
Dave in Cali
Tales from the tournament at the Lucky Lady
It's the second No Limit Holdem tournament down at the Lucky Lady. I missed the first one because I was out of town. Boy did I miss out! What a great experience this tournament was. The cardroom hosted a 7 table, 63 player tournament with a 15$ buy-in and unlimited rebuys for the first hour. You started with 1500 in chips, got 1500 for a rebuy, and had the option to take another 15$ add-on at the end of the rebuy period, which gave you another 2500 in chips. You could rebuy any time you went below 1500 in chips. The blinds started at 25 and 50. The stakes were raised every half hour, but they were not raised too much. There was a 100$ bonus for the high hand of the tournament. An interesting rule was added, one that I haven't seen in a tournament so far: If you had pocket aces beaten during the rebuy period, you got another 1500 in chips for free! The structure was really good in this tournament, the blinds were raised slowly enough to allow for a reasonable chance to get dealt some playable hands and therefore reduce the factor of luck. The most notable thing about this tournament was that the cardroom did not charge the players anything to play in this tournament, all the buy-in money went to the prize pool! The cardroom also provided a great buffet lunch of Chinese food, right from their kitchen. Hats off to the Lucky Lady for this one! No wonder the last one was such a big success. I will not miss the next one.
Now I'm not necessarily the expert on big bet poker, but I didn't just get off the boat either! However, most players in this tournament either haven't played no-limit before, or have very little experience at the game. This tournament was filled with limit Holdem players, and many of them are very loose and not very skilled. Because of this, I fully expected to see some incredible action and very crazy plays. I was not disappointed….
I decided that during this tournament I would become a cold-hearted Stone Killer. I had some resolutions, which I recited to myself in my head. I will not look at my cards until it is my turn to act, period. I will watch the faces and expressions of my opponents, especially when cards are dealt onto the board. The cards won't change, I will look at them later. I will watch their expressions and intently listen to the conversations, reading between the lines for clues as to what my opponents might do. I will constantly smell the air, sniffing for signs of weakness or fear. Fear is for the weak, I will have no fear. I will look left before I act to see if anyone is telegraphing their intentions. I will take my time on every decision. This in not a limit game, It's a different animal altogether. Decisions must be carefully weighed, and not made in haste. Danger lurks in every corner. Adrenaline flows in great rivers. My heart was racing and I hadn't even played a hand yet! THIS is what poker is really all about. God I love this game! They don't refer to No Limit Holdem as the Cadillac of poker for nothing….
I paid my money and I got my table assignment. I played my first blind and folded, then immediately called for a rebuy. I wanted to win, and to win you need chips. I was prepared to rebuy multiple times if need be, and intended to rebuy any time I went below 1500, plus add on at the end of the rebuy period. A round went by and I finally had a chance to play a hand. I had pocket nines and raised the blinds a moderate amount. I got called by one player, who had about 4000 in chips. The flop came queen high and we both checked. An ace came on the turn and he went all-in, I folded. I didn't lose that much on the hand, no big deal. The game was on….
Next, I was in the BB and posted 50. A player with about 1500 made it 100 to go. Everyone folded to me and I looked down to find Jh9s. Now this is not exactly a "premium" hand, but this is not exactly limit poker either. The player who raised was a weak player, I could smell it. He was still playing with the limit mentality. He had a big stack of chips relative to the miniscule raise I had to call. I figured my implied odds were equal to his entire stack, so I called. I was confident of being able to outplay him. I had my eye on his entire stack. The flop came Jd Th 7d. I watched him to see if he reacted. He didn't seem too impressed with the flop. I had top pair and a gutshot straight draw. I did not think that he had any part of it. I immediately went all-in for almost 3000. He hesitated, then called all-in for 1400. I took back the excess and immediately flipped my hand over. I had decided that when I was involved with an all-in hand, and their could be no more betting, that I would flip my hand over every time, whether my opponent did or not. I thought this would be good for psychological effect, making me look like Mr. Fearless. The turn and river were low cards, he turned over AQo, and I took the pot. Up to about 2500.
The next playable hand I had was a pair of sixes. I limped into the pot for 50, then a player with about 1100 made it 400 to go. Another player with about 1500 called the raise. I had to fold here, because both of my opponents did not have enough money to cover the implied odds needed to call that big of a raise with a small pair. I would probably have to flop a set to win, a 7.5:1 shot. I could not count on making 7.5 times the raise if I hit, because my opponents simply didn't have the chips to cover, so I was forced to fold. No regrets. Except for on the flop of course, which contained a six. I made the correct decision, regardless of the results of the flop.
Onward we went. The first period ended and the stakes were raised. Blinds 50 and 100. I was in the small blind and posted 50. Everyone folded to the button, who limped. He is a very pleasant gentleman who plays here regularly. I don't think he has much experience at no-limit. He is very loose and relatively passive when I play against him in ring games. He would turn out to be my nemesis…. I looked down and saw pocket queens. I raised to 850 (neither the BB or the button had that many chips). The BB folded and the button called me all-in for 450. I flipped my hand over and so did he, he had A8o. The flop came 8 5 8 rainbow and he doubled up. I was now below 1500, so I called for another rebuy.
A couple hands later, my nemesis had limped into the pot, first in. He had just won a hand and had more chips than I did. I was in middle position with AKo and raised to 2200, all-in. A couple players behind me looked like they were going to call, and I wanted to make it very expensive for them to play against me. I really didn't mind if I took the blinds and the limper's money right there, after all, I probably had the best hand. Well, the limper called and we both flipped over our hands. He had pocket jacks and went on to win the hand when I didn't pair up.
Rebuy!
The next time I was in the small blind, again the button limped into the pot, first in. This was becoming a familiar scene. I looked down and saw AKo again. You wanna play, you gotta pay. I went all-in and he called me. We turned over our hands. He had QJo and went on to win the pot when the flop was Queen high.
Rebuy! This is getting old…!
The next action I saw was in the small blind. Again, my nemesis limped into the pot on the button, first in. I looked down and saw AJo. I didn't think it was a good idea to start jacking up the stakes, because I was almost certain that the button would call if I raised. The BB was obviously not impressed with his hand, so I decided to just call and see the flop first. The flop was Ks Qs 6d. One overcard and a gutshot, not exactly spectacular. I checked and it got checked around. The turn was the 2. I decided to semi-bluff and bet 1000 into a 300$ pot. The BB called me and the button folded. I didn't WANT to be called! I figured the BB must have a pair. The river was a brick. I checked and my opponent checked. I won the pot with ace high. The BB had called my bet with J7o! I love this game!
The rebuy period was over and I added on 2500 in chips. The blinds were raised again and were now 200 and 400. I was in middle position. Two players limped into the pot and I looked down to see a pair of kings. ALL-IN! I had been busted by the same guy three times in a row, and he was one of the limpers. YOU WANNA PLAY, YOU GOTTA PAY! Words, mere words. If you build it, they will come. If you bet it, they will call. Each of my opponents took what seemed like an eternity to decide whether to call my raise or not. To my amazement and delight, they both finally folded and I took 1400 without seeing the flop. I defiantly turned my cards face up and slapped them onto the table!!! I wanted everyone to see that when I raise, "I have a good hand"!!! Finally! Give me the money! (Actually, I was fully expecting to be called, and to lose to some piece of cheese!). I greedily stacked my newfound wealth and counted it several times, like a miserly old man counting his pennies…. I considered raising a smaller amount, to try and trap them for a larger amount later, but in this game, with a table full of loose players, I didn't think it was a good idea. The pot may very well have been six or seven way if I didn't raise a whole bunch, and I certainly didn't want that many players drawing against my big pair.
The blinds were raised again and were now 300 and 500. I was up to about 6500 in chips. All folded to me in the cutoff and I looked down to find pocket queens again. I made it 3000 to go. The big blind came over the top, all-in for 4600. I called the extra 1600, even though I knew I might be drawing pretty slim. The board was K 7 7 Q 6 and I took the pot with a full house. My opponent had pocket jacks! My heart sunk when I saw the king on the flop, but of course catching that queen on the turn was sure nice! I never needed any of it though, I had him the whole way. Up to about 11,000 in chips.
Next, all folded to the cutoff, who raised to 1500. I was in the SB with AJo and folded. I was not going to call any raises without a premium hand, even though I thought the raiser might be trying to steal. I wanted to protect my stack, and he had a lot of chips, enough to bust me. AJo just isn't a good enough hand to take those kind of chances with in this situation.
About this time, I saw an amazing hand take place. There was a late limper, and the next player limped as well. The button raised, making it 2500 to go. The BB called and the first limper also called. The second limper limp-reraised, going all-in for a total of 4900. The BB then came over the top, all-in for about 500 more. The original limper called all-in as well. Each player had almost 5000 apiece in the pot! The board was king high on the flop, with an ace on the turn and a deuce on the river. The second limper, who limp-reraised, had pocket aces and took the pot. The other hands were KQo (BB) and As5s (BB). I didn't see the first limper's hand. The second limper has played pot limit many times before, and is a pretty solid big bet player, at least relative to the weak competition in this tournament. Now he was also the chip leader and at my table, not a good situation. I hoped that when the table is broken up that I will be at a different table than he is. I promised myself that I will not get into a big confrontation with him unless I have a very strong hand.
The next playable hand I had was QJo. I considered just folding it, but thought I should at least see the flop if I could. There were still five tables left and I needed to get some more chips before I could be confident of making the money. I limped for one 500$ chip after two had folded. Everyone else at the table called and we saw the flop seven handed. The flop was Qs 7s Js. Both blinds checked to me. I called for time, but the dealer didn't hear me. I called for time again, but apparently he still didn't hear me. He went around the table to the button, who hesitatingly was going to bet 500, one chip. I called for time much louder now and finally got the dealer's attention. Then I hesitated a few more seconds, just for effect. It was obvious that no one really liked this flop, and also obvious that the button was going to try and steal the pot with a wimpy little bet. I don't think so! I figured I had the best hand, but I also figured that I could very well be in a precarious situation. I bet 2000 into a 3500$ pot. I thought that this would be more than enough to win the pot, but if I was wrong, and got called or raised, I could get away from the hand without having committed too much of my stack. Everyone folded, much to my delight. Whew! I think I was out on a limb there, I won't be limping with a hand that weak again in this tournament unless I am desperate.
I was up to almost 14000 in chips and hadn't played a hand for about ten minutes. About this time another amazing hand took place. One player limped and the button raised. Everyone folded and the limper reraised all-in for about 4500. The button called the raise. The board was 6 7 K 8 4. The button had Th9h and made a straight on the turn. The limp-reraiser had pocket aces and was eliminated.
The blinds were still 300 and 500 when I got my next playable hand, pocket kings again. Just like the last time, two players limped into the pot ahead of me. This time there were three more players yet to act, including the blinds, and both the limpers were fairly short stacked compared to me, not having more than a few chips each. I didn't want the limpers to be able to play for anything less than their entire stack, and I really didn't want any more callers either. I bet it all, putting my entire 13,500 into the pot in one giant stack. I didn't want to be called, and I made it pretty darn clear! I was praying that the chip leader didn't have a hand, because if he wanted to call me, it would be less than ¼ of his stack to do so. Luckily, he folded. Both of my opponents folded too. Up to about 15,000.
The next hand I played was just after the blinds went up to 500 and 1000. I limped in early middle position with KJo and everyone called behind me, making it six way action. The flop was Kd Qs 6s. The big blind bet 2000. Wimpy! There was already 6000 in the pot from before the flop! I raised all-in for 9500 more. I figured that if he had a hand much better than mine, he would have already raised before the flop (I would have most likely folded to any real raise BTF). Therefore I thought my kicker was probably good, thus my raise. At this point, I didn't want any other callers, I was happy to go to the river heads up against a bettor I figured to have beaten. Everyone folded and the big blind called all-in for almost my entire stack. My jack kicker took the pot. I didn't see his hand.
As people were being eliminated, seats were opening up. After a few minutes, our table was being disbanded. I took my card and went to my new seat. I was very unhappy to see the chip leader was seated directly on my left. I played one small pot at this table, calling an all-in player's raise from my BB with KTs. The raiser only raised 1500 more, so I called just to try and eliminate her. I lost the pot when her AJo won unimproved.
I was at 21,500 when the blinds went up to 1000 and 2000. Again I was moved to a different table, but this time the chip leader went elsewhere. Whew! Unfortunately, I moved from the big blind right into the big blind again. I hate it when that happens! What can you do though, luck of the draw. I post my big blind and wind up winning a small side pot and making three chips profit. A player had doubled the blind, raising all-in, and I called with pocket eights in a three way pot. The raiser was eliminated, but my eights won a small side pot when I bet the turn against one opponent, who called all-in and lost. Nothing spectacular happens for a while. The next hand I played, a player made a small raise and I called with As9s. The flop was Q Q 7 and I folded when he made a large bet. He was called by another player and showed down KhQh.
We were getting closer to the final table as people were eliminated. There were two tables left when I got AdKd under the gun. I raised a large amount and only the big blind called, all-in for 3500, seven chips. He had KJ and hit a jack on the flop, but I got luckier and hit an ace on the turn, eliminating him. Tough when you knock one of your friends out of the tournament, but I was a Stone Killer, so mercy was not an option. I play one more hand with pocket eights vs. a small all-in raise and lose. Lunch is served and we take a short break to eat. The food is great, as usual for this cardroom.
After lunch the blinds were still at 1000 and 2000. A player raised to 4000 all-in and I called with KsTs. The flop was K K 8 and I won the hand. I had about 35,000 in chips when the blinds were raised to 2000 and 4000. When I posted my next big blind, everyone folded, including the small blind. I never even looked at my hand, I just tossed it in. I was playing very tightly and felt like I had played well. I was pleased with my performance so far. At this point I was playing nothing but premium hands and playing them very aggressively. I had followed all my resolutions from the beginning of the tournament almost to the letter. It's down to six handed and I get A9o in middle position. Two had folded and I had to decide whether to try and steal the blinds or not. I looked at the chip counts of my opponents and saw that the remaining players had more than enough chips to eliminate me, should someone call my raise. I decided to fold, because it was highly unlikely that I would be blinded out before the final table. There were only 12 players left. Just after I folded, the button raised about half of my stack. I never saw what he had, but he is pretty solid in ring games, so I assume he probably had a reasonably decent hand. He was called by another player. On the flop, he bet the remainder of his chips, but his opponent folded. I wondered if I had avoided a confrontation which would have knocked me out of the tournament. At this point, with only 12 players left, I will not play anything that I can't go all-in with.
The next hand I play is QJo. I was in a double big blind situation because of the moving button rule. The other blind and I both checked and everyone else folded. The flop was Q 8 8 and I went all-in. He folded in a hurry. A very loose-aggressive ring game player is on my right and has a huge stack of chips. I fold my next blind when he raises. I hardly cared what I had, I had determined that if he raised, I was going to fold anything but AA. The blinds are raised to 3000 and 5000. Two players are eliminated at the other table on the same hand that our table loses one. I made the money!
The final table is assembled and we draw for seats. I draw under the gun and fold my first hand. Next, I am in the big blind with QsTs. A very loose player with a lot of chips makes a small raise. One player calls and I call. The raiser wins the pot with a bet after a flop of Ad Td 7d. The blinds go up again. I hadn't gotten any real hands for a while and was running low on chips, only 8th out of nine. One player goes down and there are eight left. I still hadn't gotten a playable hand for a while and was getting near desperation stage. I really wanted the 1300$ first prize, but it didn't seem likely at this point. I was down to less than the big blind with six hands till my blind. The last few hands I got were 38o, 48o, and K8o. When the blind came to me, I went all in and got dealt 32o. I couldn't even beat the board on my final hand. I took 8th place and got my prize money of 98$. I bought in seven times, for a total of 105$, so my total loss was 7$ for making the final table! However, I had a great time and played some exciting poker, plus had lunch, all for the small cost of 7$. It was worth every penny!
Dave in Cali
Interesting report. I agree that no-limit tournaments are a blast.
You certainly like moving all your chips in the pot. I agree that it makes sense to put a lot of pressure on your opponents but it sounds to me that some of your all-in bets compared to the size of the pot may have been risky. Going all-in with T3000 in a small (T300 or so) pot with J9 with top pair seems risky. If you are called by any sane person you lose.
I was in a cheap rebuy tournament a few months back where there must have been 30+ rebuys on the table in 1 hour. All my big pairs lived and I went from 1k to 10k in chips.
Ken Poklitar
"Going all-in with T3000 in a small (T300 or so) pot with J9 with top pair seems risky. If you are called by any sane person you lose"
True. But this wasn't a sane person, he was a loose low limit player who doesn't understand no limit at all. I would have folded his AQ in his spot. I knew the bet (and the whole hand) was somewhat risky, but I wanted to put pressure on him, and also to establish my image as an extremely aggressive player. Plus I had the money to rebuy again if I went bust, even though I didn't relish the idea....
I don't claim to be a no-limit expert, and I very well may have been a little too aggressive in this tournament. However, once I saw some of the things people were calling with, I was more inclined to just bet the max every time, both to encourage people to fold, and to destroy anyone who called with an inferior hand.
The next tournament I will again take notes and write up what happened to me, as long as I last long enough to make it interesting.... Against this field, I knew I was going to be one of the favorites to win, as much as that is possible in a tournament. Like I said, very few players had any experience at all with no-limit.
Dave in Cali
I've played in a bunch of no-limit tourneys before, and your strategy and mine seem quite different.
I think that I'm a pretty decent tournament player-as such, I think that I can outplay (most of) my opponents after the flop.
I'm a big advocate of the small raise-almost invariably, I only bring it in for the minimum raise. If I have position on the callers, the minimum raise pre-flop will allow me to take down the chips on the flop with another fairly small bet. It also allows me to get away from my hand easily if somebody comes in over the top.
I suppose most the players in the tournaments that I play are on the tight and passive side, which helps that strategy quite a bit. YMMV.
In my cardroom, the players tend to be loose aggressive more than anything else. Tight passive players are rare here, but there are some loose passive ones.
I am not really sure what the best strategies for NL tournaments are because I have only played in two so far. I have played in lots of ring games, but mostly against relatively poor competition. Of course THAT is good experience for playing in MY cardroom, as most of the players are poor anyway. I probably played more aggressively in this tournament than I normally would in a ring game. Part of this was because I kept getting called and then drawn out on, so I was just betting enough to make people think twice about calling.
Dave in Cali
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Nice report. Some of your opponents' plays were making my mouth water ! Good luck next time.
Andy.
the hand where you have J9o in BB. you go all in for 3000 and he calls 1,400 of it and you said your total was up to 2500. shouldn't you have at least 4400?
Sounds like you had a good experience but might be experiencing a bit of negative reinforcement. Our opinions differ on the definition of what you call premium hands but it seems like youve got a good base for your limited NL play. I say sharpen up your game a little and youll be in pretty good shape. Not that you cant make the money playing the way you do....but you can be more consistent with less risk and investment. Youve got the aggression part of the game just work on honing where you use it. You will realize that plays like betting all in, into a Q88 flop with QJ will get you broke more than it will make you money. Thats one of many hands that you arent going to get called unless you are beat. Keep working at it and thanks for the report I enjoyed your writing.
= )
f
Funnily enough, last night I was playing in a No-Limit tournament and several of the same kinds of things were happening.
Examples - I damn nearly had Aces run down by J3, sorry J3 suited ; the guy with J3 bought in at least 7 times ; five players all-in on the same hand (KK, AK, AK, TT and T5, sorry T5 suited, guess who won) ; pot of 600, guy bets 4000 pre-flop with KQ and gets called by JT, sorry JT suited ; and huge overbets and overcalls taking place all the time. The most stolid, unimaginative, pudding-like player at the table ran up about 25K in chips in the first hour (and no it wasn't me).
Unremarkable you might think - but this was a $300 tournament at one of Europe's premier card festivals ! I thought I could no longer be amazed by the all-round poor play I see but this was a new high (or low). If the $700 comp on Thursday is going to be anything like, my mouth is watering already :-)
Andy.
no text.
Oops, posted this in the wrong place!
Hey guys.
I just placed high enough at the Lucky Chances TOC freeroll to qualify for a free seat!
Although I'm pumped, the tournament is only a month away, and I'd like to maximize my time there/chances of finishing in the money.
The only reason that I did so well in the Lucky Chances tournament (besides cracking pocket aces twice) is because the tournament became no-limit after 10 betting rounds, and no-limit is my strongest (least weak?) tournament game.
Are there any tips on boning up on your stud/omaha tourney skills? Those are two events that I hardly ever play in-and I'd like not to humiliate myself at the TOC. And also, are there any tips at all for playing in large events like this? This is my first 200+ buyin event.
Thanks for all the help in advance!
About this time last year I posted this same question and really didn't get much of an answer. As it turned out, I did finish in the money. Going in, like you, I considered my strongest game was NL Hold'em. Here are some random thoughts:
*NL doesn't start until Day 3, so you can't count on those skills.
*Of the three starting games, most of the players will feel Hold'em is their strongest game.
*If you feel you're weak in Stud and Omaha8 you should play MUCH tighter in the early rounds than you would normally think. Wait for the best of hands and play them aggressively. Sounds basic, but many start out trying to win a lot of hands. It's just not that important to win a lot of hands early in a three day tournament.
*If you make it late in the first day and into the second day, the game becomes less important and playing good tournament strategy becomes more important. Stack management and exploiting the small stacks, etc. Be aware that others are doing this too and take advantage of that.
*If you're in the middle of the second day and get T2o in the big blind and a player in early position with lots of fossils around raises. Call the raise, you'll probably flop and 2 and win the hand.
JohnnyD
I would get Ray Zee's book, which covers both seven card stud/8 and omaha/8. It's very easy reading. My omaha/8 game has really improved thanks to this book. Good luck. joe
Read the Ray Zee books on stud and Omaha split. Try to play in some low limit games in your home club, just to get a feel for the concepts you're reading in action.
Play tight early, and loose late in the hand.
If you raise with AK and the big blind calls, watch out for any deuces on the board.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You said in your post, "Play tight early, and loose late in the hand."
I have never heard this one before--could you explain more, please?
Like any 1 sentence advice, it's overly simplistic.
However, early in the hand, the pot is small, and there is no reason to play anything but a high-quality starting hand. Later, even when your high-quality starting hand hasn't amounted to much, the pot is big enough, and you are close enough to the finish line, that you often should pay off the opponent unless you're highly sure you can't win a showdown. To fold early and lose little or nothing is no disaster. To fold on the end to a player who was pushing a draw that never got there and lose a pot full of bets is a disaster.
So, if you knew nothing else (and if that were true, you shouldn't be playing for money), playing tight early and lose late in the hand is a reasonable standard.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
today i created a lotus spreadsheat to summarize my paradise poker tournament play. it's pretty neat. if anyone wants a copy just email me.
bama gambler
Does it have a separate page for each type of game with summary reports in various formats and macros for easy updating ?
If not then it's not as neat as mine :-)
Andy.
Here's a NL situation that I encountered yesterday. It's actually somewhat similar to one of the hypothetical situations presented in the "NL Situation" post by zzzzz (Ray) yesterday.
It's getting late in the tourney and we're down to two tables (final table gets paid). I'm on the button with an average stack (let's say about 2000). Blinds are 150-300. UTG+1 (who is an average player, but definitely not a very good player) opens with a raise for 600 (he has about 2000 also). He has a tendency to play with any two picture cards. Everyone folds to the player to my right who goes all-in for about 1000. I've observed his play, and he seems like a very tight player. I didn't think that he'd go all-in with anything less than AA, KK, AK, and maybe AQ, QQ, JJ. I look down and see QQ. I ask for time and surprisingly get a read on the SB. He seems kinda anxious to get all his chips (about 1500) in the pot. Don't ask me how I knew, I just had a feeling. Anyways, I reasoned that between UTG+1, tight player to my right, and possibly the SB, I am probably not a favorite with my QQ if I need to go up against all three of them. However, I could really build my stack if my QQ hold up. After much contemplation, I mucked. My read of the SB was correct, he went all-in. UTG+1 called after thinking for quite a while.
The flop came rainbow rags 9-high. Of course, the turn was a Queen (damn!). The river was an Ace. UTG+1 won with A10o! I couldn't believe he played that bad, but I guess he was in a gambling mood. Tight player to my right had TT and SB had KK. Of course I would have won a huge pot, but my read was correct, I was drawing to a two-outer because I was dominated by KK.
A couple of questions:
1. Given my reads on the players, would you guys have been willing to muck QQ in this situation? I figured it was about a 50-50 decision. If my chip stack was dwindling, I would have played it. Does that sound about right?
2. Am I correct to say that I don't want to play against three all-in players with QQ? Would I have +EV in this situation?
3. If I was determined to see the flop, I was planning to go all-in preflop instead of just calling. Is this correct strategy here?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
1) Certainly the more players the more likely you will lose. With your read that the SB was going to go all-in I think a muck makes sense. UTG+1 raise to 600 seems weak to me. Does he always raise like that or only when he has great or only good hands? The player going all-in for 1k doesn't overly worry me. He is short stacked so he could have a wide variety of hands. If I don't get a read on the SB then I would go all-in facing 2 players.
2) 1 or 2 players is good for QQ.
3) I would not just call. I would go all-in to try to get UTG+1 out and to try to minimize the blinds coming in.
Good read, good pass. Took a bit of nerve to act on your read as well - you can be the best hand-reader in the world and it will do you no good if you don't have the courage of your convictions.
Don't get carried away and start folding too often, but keep using your judgement as above in each particular situation and you should do very well.
Andy.
Jace,
1) If I was short stacked and felt that I would not make it to the final table I would play it. I think you had enough chips left to make the decision you did.
2) You need odds of 4.5-to-1 to hit a set going all-in.
3) I don't see how you could get away from the hand after putting in 1000. An all-in move is better.
Good Luck
Mark
I agree with the other replies. It is all in or muck. If you were nervous about going against 2 people with QQ and the SB was anxious to go against 2 people with his hand, his is likely better than yours (ie AA, KK). In that instance I think a fold is "easy" if you believe your read. Good read, good fold.
No Limit Tournament
Been playing 2.5 hours, blinds are 200 and 400, antes are 50. I have T4800 which is about average at my table.
I get AA two off of the button, there was one caller to me and I raise to T1000, BB calls other guy folds.
Flop comes 9TQrb, BB goes all in (covers me). I have been watching this guy and I don’t think he calls T1000 with a draw (I have seen him toss AdJd to a raise). I guess that he has KK or AQ, maybe QQ but I doubt it. It is also possible he is defending his blind. I decide that I have the best of it and call.
He turns over JJ for the open-end draw, I turn over AA. J comes on the turn and I’m out! Where did I go wrong here?
Thanks,
Hank
I would have raised a bit more pre-flop but that wouldn't have made much of a difference in this case. With 1 limper I would raise to 1600. I am sure JJ would have called.
Not much you could have done differently. You had all the money in when you were a 3 to 2 favorite.
Ken Poklitar
you got your $$ in with the best hand--he had about 20 outs so youre still not bad---till he hits--thats just part of the game--yes you could have folded the aces, but considering your read of his hand, what better spot can you hope for?? no mistake, just bad luck. Jim
I'm a bit confused? You say you raised TO T1000; I assume you raised an additional T1000. Was it a full table? If so, there was T500 in antes plus the SB & BB, plus the limper call: That totals T1500 in the pot when it's your turn to act, correct? If so, what is AA in your position worth in terms of a raise? 2x pot....3x pot?? With T1500 already in, and my stack at T4800, I think that I would push them all in right then and there. Let's put the rest of the table to a decision. If no callers, I've got the T1500. If any callers, I like my AA, tyvm!!
Raising to 1000 is not enough. I would make it 2000 or so (there's 1400 already in there, right ?). If you think an all-in is reasonably likely to be called then go for it. Doyle says, the prime function of Aces is to get all-in pre-flop against a hand that it dominates, and he's right on the money as usual.
Andy.
Today, I am playing in a $100 Paradise 1 Table Tourney online. I do relatively well through the first two rounds and amass between T1200-T1300. Then, all of a sudden, my broadband internet connection decides to go dead on me at the beginning of Level III!!!
Suffice to say I am livid at this point and trying every trick in the book to awaken my sleeping modem. Of course, the problem is most likely town specific as I have run into this problem before. But not in the middle of a $100 Tourney which I am in top 3 in chips!
By luck, my modem flickers on in time to catch my T100 big blind in Level IV. I am dealt 10c-10d, and the chip leader raises in to me. I suspect he realizes my connection has been dead for sometime and he is just trying to snag my dead chips to add to his large stack. I call his raise (I considered a reraise at this point but I figured just call and see how the flop comes seeing as my luck has been close to nil today). Flop comes A-J-6, all of diamonds. I'm pretty much toast but I do have outs (maybe) at a flush. I come out betting T100 on flop and big stack thinks for a second and then folds (WOOHOO!!!). I now have built my stack up to well over T1400 and am ready to cruise to the money hopefully.
The level continues with no snags. I fold EVERYTHING and let the field weed itself out. I am third in chips at this point (mid Level V, I believe) and am confident that I can finish in the money barring anymore problems. The field is left with 4 of us just as Level VI is about to start. I have T1400, chip leader has about T2900, and other two have approximately as many chips as me. I am not one of the early people to get socked with the huge big blind so I am in a good spot.
Then all Hell broke loose again: the modem connection crashed. (D'OH!!!!) I lucked out and found myself left with a golden opportunity to place in the money and now I am toast. I start thinking the worst (maybe the opponents know I can't play and will agree to just chop pots until they knock me out of the money?). I pace to and fro, the outcome no longer in my hands.
My internet comes back on again 20 minutes later and obviously the tourney is over by now. With my fingers crossed I check my Paradise account balance expecting the worst.
Lo and behold, I have $200 more in my account. I actually finished THIRD by folding all my blinds!!! WOOHOO!!!!
Anyway, I thought I would share my crazy story with you all. The moral of the story, I guess, would be, never give up when you face a challenge. If you have the ability and the stamina, and you can work hard and fight through all the bullshit, you just might come out smelling like roses.
Good luck at the tables and may all your internet connections be good.
Dan the Man
Dan,
At least you finished in the money. This is one of the reasons I don't like on-line poker. I lose my connection too often, so I'm not willing to risk the money to do it. For real money, I will only play live poker.
Good Luck
Mark
Same thing just happened to me the other day. Only, when I got back online, it was just in time to see my hand turned over when I was all-in. I lost that pot, but there were only 2 of them left, so I also came in third. When I lost my connection, I had the chip lead at about 1500, and there were 7 players left at the beginning of level 4. Guess a lot of players didn't figure out I wasn't really there, or they would (should) have tightened up a bit.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have a question about strategy for a N/L tournament. Assume that the rebuy period has ended, and it's too early to worry about finishing in the money. You have the nut flush draw on the flop(no pairs). You have to commit all of you chips to play but there is 4x your stack in the pot. Do you commit all of your chips as an underdog to win, with good odds if you catch, or do you fold and wait until you don't have a drawing hand to commit your chips? Would you pass on a play with positive expectation in order to stay in a particular tournament, or would you think it's a good play even as an underdog and go home if you lose?
Well, I'm definitely an agressive player in NL.
It would depend on how many other players are in the pot, as well as your read on the other players. Most importantly, it depends on your chip stack size.
If you're short-stacked, this is probably the best hand you're going to see in a while, and I'd shove in without much regret no matter how the hand turns out.
If you have a medium stack, that means that 3 other medium stacked players are all-in, or 3 large stack players have significant portions of their stack in the pot. If you have medium-stacked players all-in, that means that they probably have something-I'd probably still call, but I'm rather impatient.
If you have a large stack, that means that there have to be a bunch of people in the pot, or that there's a big confrontation between other large stack players at your table. Then I'd probably muck-everybody wins when big-stacked players decide to get in a pissing contest on the flop. :-)
Obviously a particular play depends on the usual situational factors. However I think you are actually asking a theoretical question which I will paraphrase as follows (correct me if I am wrong).
Should you make a play with positive expectation, such as paying 4-1 odds when you are a 2-1 dog, when the risk is that you will be knocked out if you lose ? Assuming as you say, rebuys over but still well short of the money.
We have been through this before in one format or another, so I am just going to state (or vote for :-)) my answer. Yes. Unless you are very confident that you can make substantial money without ever having to show a hand (ie you have supreme control over most or all of your opponents). Which you rarely, if ever, will be in practice. Remember that it's very hard to control weak opponents (in the sense I mean) because they will just call you down.
Andy.
Mike,
The only time that I would not play a draw, is if I had a large stack, because I want to protect it.
But, in this situation I would go for it. If you win, you will have 4x your original stack size which will give you a sufficient amount of chips to make it deep into the tournament.
Good Luck
Mark
I concur. If I were the second chip leader, and the chip leader is putting me all-in (but, of course, how could I be getting 4:1 on the call if all this were true?), then I'd fold because I have plenty of chips to use to beat players later when it's safer to do so. If my stack is not huge, I take the overlay here, since the hypothetical stipulates that we're still very far from the money.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This was my first limit tourney although I have played more than a hundred NL HE tourney's. I wll try to include all the specifics. 90 players $65 buy in of which 60 goes to the prize pool. This hand occured at the final table with 6 players remaining. The prize distribution was as follows 6th $340(approx.) 5th $400 4th $550 3rd $750 2nd $950 1st $2200.
I am 2nd UTG with T10k in chips. The Blinds are 2k-4k and I am second lowest stack but the chip leader has only about $15k and most stacks are within 2 or 3 (T$500) chips of mine.
In the blinds are two women, both are adamant calling stations and the big blind was the monster chip leader having the 2nd player by 4 or 5-1 but has pissed it all away and now has only 3 more chips then me. She has been extremely lucky until the final table but then was outplayed badly on a few big hands. The two men behind me have been very tight at the final table trying to let the field weed itself out. Both have played only huge hands before the flop. I have seen the player to my left show me hands like 9-9 A-Q A-J suited folded to a raise before the flop and the button has been similarly tight.
Cards are dealt, UTG folds to me, I have KsJs. What would you do and why, results to follow.
Donykid
Although I prefer to put myself in a position to commit the majority of my stack with a pocket pair, under the circumstances you describe, I would raise to 8K here, hoping to fold out the two tight players to your left and the small blind. The big blind, from what you describe, will definately protect her blind and call your raise. Now you would be heads up with position. Limping would be a weak play and inviting disaster. Folding would also be weak at this stage in the tournament, as next hand you are UTG, then in the blinds. It's time to make your move, no matter what the outcome. There's a big differance in the payout structure from 6th to 1st and you have to do whatever it takes to accumulate the most chips in the right situation!
Donykid,
I would fold for a few reasons. The first is that it appears there is virually no chance to steal the blinds. The second, it appears that someone will be knocked out soon due to the high blinds and small stacks, allowing me to move up the pay scale. I believe survival tactics will allow you to make more money.
Good Luck
Mark
Wow talk about a crapshoot. 6 players with 10k-15k when the blinds are 2k-4k. Sounds like this may be a good example of why to make a deal.
KJs is a better than average hand. It is definitely raise or fold. Sounds like the 2 guys to your left are in wait mode wanting to get in the money. So you will be only called by them if they have big hands. You called the blinds calling stations. Will they call a raise?
Folding probably gives you the best chance to get in the money. Raising probably gives you the best chance to move up in the money.
Where is the small stack and how much do they have?
If UTG is the small stack I fold otherwise I raise.
Ken Poklitar
Boy, you've come up with a dilly of a problem here.
In a more traditional payout structure, I would fold here. However, in your case, moving up to 5th or 4th isn't much more money, and even moving up to 3rd is only double what you make for 6th, while 1st place pays 3x what 3rd does. Clearly, with such a discrepancy between 1st and the other finishes, there is a premium here for winning.
KJs is a much better than average hand, in the top few percent of starting hands when played heads-up all-in preflop. Against 1 random hand, it will win something like 62% of the time. However, if you raise here, you might get called by 2 players, which would be bad.
I think the question isn't simply will they always call your raise, but first, will they also call your flop bet if they miss the flop (which it appears they will, since you'll only be able to bet 2K into a 18-24K pot)? Second, if you only call preflop, will they fold if they check to you? This includes them NOT being the type to check-raise, as well as the type to bet out when they flop something. If they will fold every time they miss (and we probably need to count anything other than top pair, second pair, or a quality draw as a miss) and you bet, then you can just call preflop, expect the tight guys to fold, and then win this 12K pot on the flop with 1 bet. However, they will flop something well over half the time if there are 2 of them in there.
So, whatever you do here is risky. lol, that's poker. I would probably raise here so as to ensure that the tight guys behind me fold hands like small pairs and weak Aces, and also hopefully to get at least the small blind to fold. Then, if the big blind is calling with anything, you'll win about 62% of the time and have a stack of 22K and be a solid leader for the first prize.
Someone else mentioned a deal in their reply. This does seem like a good time to suggest a 6-way chop. You really are in a big crapshoot here, given the short stacks everybody is playing. Barring a deal, I bet you'll have a winner within about 10-15 hands, maybe sooner.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I would raise and make a stand with KJs. The guys behind you aren't going to knock anybody out so you have to make a play.
I'd rather take a stand than be bled to death by the blinds.
Raise the mother!!
First thanks to everyone for a few different perspectives. Here is what Happened:
This was the first hand after a raise in limits and I had just checked the pay scale and realized that there was a huge difference in the top 3 spots and the bottom three so survival tactics to move up one or two spots weren't gonna make me much more than I was already guaranteed so I should raise any decent hand in my next two hands before the blinds. I was hoping for A-x or any pair but KJs was good enough in my mind.
When I raised as expected the two guys to my left folded, the small blind (who was also the small stack with 8k) folded and the big blind Reraised me all in for 2k more leaving her with only 1.5k left. We turned our hands over and she showed Kh 4h. I had her dominated except for that small technicality of the five community cards where she proceeded to make a wheel with her four on the river. I finished 6th with $343 and a very dissapointed attitude. I only question my play because it lost but after reviewing it for a while I really think there may be a case for folding here. AS for the deals two players had said no deals all along it had been brought up twice.
Thanks again for your input and good luck with your own hands,
Donykid
K4, and she reraised?
And people ask me how I can make money gambling.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It's hard not to second guess when you get beaten out by a bad player like that, BUT... no QUESTION you did the right thing. The blinds were looming. It is always better to go out with a big edge in your favor, than get blinded out in wimpy fashion. You analyzed it and played it perfectly.
As I mentioned below, I was playing in a No-Limit competition last night ($300 entry, 140 runners, rebuys for 75 minutes, 2000 chips to start, blinds starting 25-25-50). Many of my opponents were frequently sliding their entire stack into the middle. Now, I'm not talking about going all-in when a pot-size raise would take half your stack, I am talking about hugely overbetting the pot. Many of these overbets were being called. Here are two examples.
1) I mentioned this below. Blinds are 100-100-200 off the button. Passed round to the first blind who slides 4000 into the pot. This guy is a very poor player who I would not stake in a $3 tournament. The big blind, an American who has been playing fairly tight up to this point, inexplicably calls with JT suited. The raiser has KQ and this holds up.
2) Later in the tournament, blinds are 300-300-600. It is passed around to the button, a loose player, who calls. While the first two blinds pass, the big blind returns to the table after a break, picks up his cards and immediately pushes his stack of 8000 into the pot. Button thinks for a bit and calls. Big blind has QQ. Button has A3. I am glad I am not drinking anything at this point or else it would have been all over the table. QQ holds up.
All well and good. Now, in isolation against sound opponents, of course this kind of overbetting is not a good move. However, when in Rome .... When everyone starts doing this, it is tempting to push it all in too if you find Aces in early position, for example. You could easily get a caller for the whole lot pre-flop. Then again if you just smooth call someone might shove it all in for you. What about Kings ? Queens ? How low would you go ?? Has anyone any general thoughts on the strategies they employ in this kind of situation ? I just haven't played that much No-Limit and, until last night, those NL competitions I had played were reasonably sensible. You have to have a big edge when people are playing like this, but what's the best way to maximize it ?
Andy.
Andy,
Just limp in early position and call the slider with aces and kings. If he does not have to have much to make this raise, then do it with queens, jacks, and maybe tens. Whatever hand you do it with should be based on your judgement of what you think they will do it with, your hand only has to be a little better.
If you are in late position and have the big hands, slide it in. If you have an agressive player in the blinds or someone that limped in early they may call. Some of these guys think that your are trying to steal there blinds and they will playback with alot of mediocre hands.
In Vegas, I usually see this kind of action at the $20 rebuy tournaments at the Orleans. The Orleans Open has one no-limit event with unlimited rebuys for the first 90 minutes. When I was there last year, the table I was at did twenty-two rebuys before the break.
Also, the Sahara has a $60 buy in with a rebuy for $40. When I was there last in May there was the guy that won the dealers tournament at the WSOP. He was pushing his stack in on just about any pair and then showing everyone what he had. Eventually, he went broke. It's great when you have guys that will pay you off.
Good Luck
Mark
Sounds good, especially moving it in when in a steal position with a real hand, I like that.
But when someone has gone all-in in front of you, don't you need more than "a little better" than what he could have ? Example, suppose you know he will push in with any pair 99 through AA (hard to know this, but let's say so for the purpose of this example). Surely you would need QQ to call because if you call with TT then he is about 4-1 favourite to be winning (by Bayes theorem) ?
On giving this some more thought I suppose there is no substitute for making a decision as best you can based on what information you have got - as always !
Andy.
Andy,
During the rebuy period, I will be a little looser with my calling requirements if I need the chips and have not doubled up yet. I guess it all depends on the judgement of your opponent.
A little over two years ago, a week before the final event at the WSOP, I was playing a $120 No-Limit Hold'em tournament with one-rebuy allowed at the Mirage. At my table there were two well known players to my left, Johnny Hale and Susie Issacs. After the second break, Susie started sliding in her stack with any suited ace, one time no one called her and she actually had aces and showed them.
This is how the last hand she played went. She moved in her stack in early position. I had the big blind and looked at my cards--the AK of hearts. The small blind moved in his stack which was smaller than mine, but I had Susie covered and called. An ace came on the flop, the small blind had 88 and lost, Susie had A4 of diamonds.
Later in this tournament, we were down to two tables with six players at each. Everyone folds to me on the button and I have pocket queens. I have a few more chips than the big blind, so I slide it in. The small blind folds and the big blind leans over the table staring at me and pushes his stack in. The queens held up, the big blind had AJ. That was real sweet.
I think that if you pick the appropriate times to make the move you will come out on top. Especially, against an aggressive player who you have been stealing from and now he has a playable hand, but you have the nuts.
At the Orleans last year, I played the $130 No-Limit Hold'em tournament with unlimited rebuys for the first 90 minutes. I highly recommend this one. There is plenty of sliding and re-raising.
Good Luck
Mark
rather common to see this type of action among players with limited N/L experience...they seem to think that going all in is what N/L is for..we both know that is not what it's all about. When faced with this about all we can do is play our best solid game...not join them. Reminds me of small trnmnt I was in few months ago--down to final 4 players including 2 young fellows who wanted an ace and a face and they were off to the race, all in. A hand came up in which I had pocket KK and before the flop 1st young guy moved in, followed quickly by the other (4th player not involved) so it's up to me, I had a bit more chips than either of them and decided to go for it--we turned up our three hands: AK AK KK--busted both of them and then 4th guy had very short stack was so thrilled to get second, he just wanted to stop there ..I was pleased to agree. lol Jim
Surely you are not suggesting that when the table is down to 4 players, an unraised pot does not warrant shoving the whole stack in with an AK ???
If the blinds were substantial at that point, and the stacks were say, no more than 5 to 15 or 20 times the size of the pot, what decent player would NOT put in a huge raise, and/or go all in against a short field in an unraised pot, with an AK???
How often do you expect to see an AK in the final stages against a short field with blinds rapidly escalating to bust out levels? I'll bet you could play tourneys your whole life and you will never again have an opportunity to bust out 2 AK's with pocket KK's four handed in the final stages.
Mike L.
>>..Reminds me of small trnmnt I was in few months ago--down to final 4 players including 2 young fellows who wanted an ace and a face and they were off to the race, all in. A hand came up in which I had pocket KK and before the flop 1st young guy moved in, followed quickly by the other (4th player not involved) so it's up to me, I had a bit more chips than either of them and decided to go for it--we turned up our three hands: AK AK KK--busted both of them and then 4th guy had very short stack ..<<
I have had some problems with "Sliders" in the past when they are in isolation in a tournament. When the whole table is in Slider mode I tighten up a bit. I raise a bit more then normal but I don't push my whole stack in with great hands. In the one rebuy tourney that I experienced it I would raise with AA,KK,QQ and someone else would be nice enough to go all-in for me. In one hand the blinds were 25-50 and UTG goes all-in with 1k. I have JJ which is an easy fold normally against a big raise. I call and win. UTG had K9o. In my experience once the rebuy stage ends the table loses its slider mentality although there are still individuals that always play that way.
Ken Poklitar
Just looking to see what others think about a ruling made in a NL HE tourney yesterday.
Blinds are 10-15. UTG makes it 100 to go. Cutoff calls. BB goes all in for 125. UTG raises to 250. Cutoff objects and asks if this is possible - floor rules that UTG can make it 250.
Here are the questions: 1. Since UTGs original raise was 85 (100 minus the BB15), and the BB's raise was 25 which is less than half the original 85, would the only action the next person could take be to complete the raise and make it 210? Or is the concept of "completing the bet" moot because this is a No Limit Tournament?
2. Since UTG was the original raiser, the cutoff just called, and the BB couldn't make a "complete" raise because of chip count, isn't allowing the UTG to make an additional raise allowing him to re-raise himself? And is that legal?
Curious to see what others think here. Our analysis (me and the cutoff) is that the floor made the wrong ruling in letting UTG re-raise, and that UTG and cutoff should have called the BB's all in raise and then see the flop.
The rulings I have seen have always worked one of 2 ways. In both ways, the original raiser (or limper, if he limped in behind the blinds) cannot raise again unless he has been reraised. Then, the question is, what constitutes a reraise? In some clubs, the all-in raise must be a full raise. In this case, the original raise was an increment of T85, so if the second raise is less than T85, it is not a legal raise, but "action-only", and remaining players (except for blinds which are taking their first voluntary action) cannot raise again. In other clubs, if the raise is half-or-more of the original raise, then it is a legal raise, and reopens the betting for other players. So, in this case, if the all-in raise had been for T42.5 (i.e., T45) or more, then the first raiser would be allowed to raise again.
Until I read your post, I had not heard of clubs that considered any all-in raise, no matter how small, as a legal raise that reopens the betting. However, that doesn't mean that this ruling is wrong, as that may be the rule at that club. It just means it is not in line with my experiences in Conn., Vegas, SoCal, and the Midwest.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have just (unexpectedly) booked my trip to LV for the TOC. I am arriving Wed. night, and staying until Sun. night. I will play the TOC, and likely the Omaha hi-lo event on Thurs. If anyone else is going to be there, and I know you will be, please say hi again if we're old friends, or introduce yourself if we haven't met before. As always, look for the big guy with the fossils on the table.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
x
If I win one of the orleans events in the next week I will be there :) If I don't I will root for you or the other 2+2ers that make it.
Good luck all!
Ken Poklitar
If I make a score at the Orleans I will stay on for the extra week. Please come up and say hello if you see me !
Andy.
n/t
Hi Greg, I'm Q'd but no $$ for the entry....round3 suckout on pokerpages.
Know anyone willing to back me? ;-)
Good luck, kick some butt- Jimmy
Sorry Jim. I'm not too sure you have enough experience with stud, nor NL HE once you make it that far. Please tell me if I'm wrong.
Go for it anyway. If you've got the time, head out a few days before the TOC, and play a few of the multi-table satellites for the $2K. There will be enough good side action for you to win back your trip expenses and satellite expenses anyway.
America West has direct, non-stop flights from Hartford for $230.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Cant go, my dad's going in for bypass and I need to stay here.
Yes, not strong enuogh in stud or omaha to run with the big boys, barring a lucky day.
As for lim and nolimi HE, Im becoming VERY proficient.
I got sucked out of that Tues T just after you left:
AKsuited BB, QJo raises, flop AJ2, I bet he goes allin...covers me, hits J on river...WTF. Stupid old fk in blue baseball cap.
Oh well, so Im pissed right...go home, and proceed to WIN and Q 4 freinds in pokerpages rnd 1...not top 5 WIN all 4 in a row. Get 17th for one in rnd 2, lose to a lucky river there....almost twice Q'd in rnd 2 ;-)
Ive Q'd 28 times now in rnd 1's so I think my no limit skillz are getting there. I AM winning wsop next year.
Jim,
That guy in the baseball cap seems to be your nemesis, eh!!?? LOL
Paradise tourney.
4 players are left. Blinds are 200-400, limits are 400-800. I have T1280 left with pocket jacks. UTG (T1422 before hand)raises, button folds (T3818), SB (T1480)folds.
Up to me. I opted to flat call and bet the flop since I only have T480 left.
Unfortunately, the flop comes A K 4, not a very good flop for me.
1) would you still fire away? there is T1000 up for grabs but my thinking was that I would only get called by hands I cannot beat (any A, K, 44 and maybe QQ), I don't think I could get a better hand to fold here (except QQ). If I now checked planning to call, my opponent could bet hands I beat, (QJ, QT, JT or any pocket pair). Maybe we could see the whole hand through for free (not likely).
2) if you would check, would you call a bet (or raise the extra T80) ? there would then be T1400 in the pot.
For the curious ones, we got all-in on the flop, since I felt somewhat commited to the hand, I really could have the best hand and no other player is close to busting. He had AKs.
Another fourth place finish... :-(
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Is there any significant chance that you could finish in 2nd place by folding your way there? I mean, are these guys, with the exception of this hand, still jamming it up? Likely they're not, but if they are, it is worth considering.
I like the way you played the hand, and think you did it right, unless you checked and called the flop. Even though that flop sucks, why give a free card to any hand that isn't beating you, especially since you must call anyway. In addition to hands featuring an A or K, the raiser could have any pocket pair. You don't want to check, have him check his 99, and then catch a 9 on the turn. Admittedly, you're in a tough spot, but betting out is still best, IMO. Heck, you might get QQ to fold, as you mention, as well as hands like Qx that you really want to get rid of, given the pot odds they're getting. Additionally, if he's really weak, he MIGHT fold a hand like K5, figuring you wouldn't put yourself all-in without having an A here, or at least a better kicker with your K. Again, not likely, but it is the accumulation of these little things that adds up to your edge.
Bummer result, but it was a coin toss. If you fold here, you'll be folding the best hand a bit too often to make it the right play. If I were the raiser, I would bet anything that you checked to me, or at least pretty damn close to anything.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
at these high limits you really don't want to get involved in a hand with a bigger stack unless he is in a steal position or you have AA or KK (maybe QQ if he is a loose raiser). try to let someone else make a mistake and secure a money spot.
bama gambler
I am playing no-limit h/m knockput and having trouble bluffing, its a table often starting with 8/9/10 players. It seems when i attempt a bluff i get called mainly because i play with a table containing 4-5 weak players who will always call. So i end up waiting for a group 1 hand and when i play here i will do well but the antes go up at an alarming rate in this game that i end up with very little chips at the end when there are 3 players left or so. It seems if i get a good run of cards i will win, but i feel i should be good enough to win when the cards aint so good as well.
maybe i bluff at an obvious point, on the button or sb? maybe the antes raise so fast that this maybe not a true game, games last around 2 hours?
Tab
Hold off your bluffing until the blinds/antes are high relative to stack size, and there are fewer opponents left in the game. No point bluffing into a large field of weak calling stations, as they will call, right?
So, once 3-4 of the 4-5 calling stations have busted out, now you can run a bluff if other factors are in line for the play.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The (questionnable) management at the nearest casino has decided to host their first stud tournament this week-end. We get 200-300 in chips (the floorman was not sure) with rebuys. Levels start at 5-10 and double every 2 orbit. They sit 7 players. Here's the tricky part: the antes will be the lowest limit. So, at 5-10, the antes will be 5. (They usually only spread 1-5 and 2-10 without antes, so they really don't know how to proceed here)This gives the players great pot odds on 3rd street. The low chip count also means you somewhat have to get lucky early.
I have never, I will repeat never, seen a solid player playing stud there. The games are usually passive. I am sure I will have a great edge. Most of these players have any tournament experience.
So, ante stealing will be very important, if I can manage to do it since I expect the field to be very loose. The great odds on third street (if 4 players are in one will get around 10-1) coupled with the fact that we won't start with many chips, makes it that I need to adjust.
I am thinking on playing any pair regardless of kicker(hoping to catch trips on 4th or 5th for the small and medium pairs), any 3 suited, any 3 str8s and other OK combos like 8JQ with a 2 suit. All of this in any position since I expect the play to be passive. Of course, all of this considering the live cards and the flow of the game. But basically, I will need to be more looser than usual, since the antes will be so high compared to the bets.
Is this still too tight?
Are there any more adjustments to be made?
Thanks,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
My 7 stud tournament experience, (65.00 buy in, unlimited 20.00 rebuys until the break), is that bluffing is fruitless. You will get 3 calling stations to 7th street, and then they'll want to see your hand at the end regardless of what they hold. This is of course up until the break.
After the break you may be able to bluff at the higher levels and with no re-buys available. By then you will know which players can and cannot be bluffed.
You will most likely have to make winning hands at the showdown. I think you will find it a lot different than no limit hold-em tournaments.
One example. After the break I have a hand that starts 9,10,Q,K of hearts. I semi-bluffed right to the end and caught nothing. My opponent who called all the way,(and all in) made a pair of 3s.
Don't forget to tighten back up when the antes become small relative to the stack sizes (or are they going to double the antes when they double the limits? Oi-vay!).
If it's always going to be this loose of a structure, then luck is going to be a huge factor, such that your edge isn't going to be that great, so expect a lot of variance in these events.
While it may be true that you won't be able to bluff your way to winning a pot, you can still bet or raise to knock players out. You will need to do this if they are at all susceptible to it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
My understanding of it Greg, is that yes the ante will double also, so at the 50-100 level, antes will be 50.
I will try to talk to the floormen to have this changed because it really will be a crapshoot. I still feel I will have an edge there, but I do agree that proof will only be "official" after a good number of tries.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Are you sure that isn't an ante on the button or something? During the early rounds of the stud tournaments I play in, they pass a dealer button around and he antes for the whole table. This makes a whole lot more sense than having everyone ante a small bet. If they're taking suggestions, you might suggest this. If you're really anteing a small bet each round, you do need to play pretty loose. I'd certainly play any old live pair, unless the kicker was dead. Any reasonably live three flush will do as well. I hate straight draws, but that's probably for another thread.
Is the bring-in $5 as well?
I'm planning on playing in a tournament at Foxwoods next week. They were kind enough to send the structure for that event, which makes a lot more sense than what you've described, and more sense than the event that I play in for that matter. It's in Word format, and I can send it along if you like.
At 300-600 level have 3,200.00 with the average around 2,000.00. Under the gun I see A-J diamonds. I limp. Wrong?
I get three others in the pot. Flop comes A with 2 diamonds. I feel there is a weak A out there so I want to check raise. I check. Wrong?
It checks around. Turn is an 8. I bet out and get raised. Now I stay for the diamond which does not come and I call a river bet. I lose to A-8.
1. I don't think a pre-flop raise would get the A-8 player out, but I'm not 100% sure of that.
2. I decided to gamble and try to set up a good size win, and I had him, but he escaped.
Should I have played this differently? This hand crippled me and I was out shortly after.
With stack sizes that small compared to the blinds, you should be happy just winning the blinds. Raise and if they all fold that's great. With AJs, I would always be happy to win the blinds. The hand simply isn't strong enough to "deserve" more than that. It beats a random hand less than 2/3 of the time as is.
I would bet out on the flop. You probably have the best hand, but with 3 players, you need to charge them to draw. The pot is now very big compared to your stack, so try to win it now.
Even when raised, you probably have to call. Your lack of a preflop raise and a check on the flop certainly could have convinced the raiser that his second pair was good, let alone an A with a weaker kicker (that hasn't made 2-pair). Given that you've induced a bluff and/or excessive aggression from your opponents, you can't fold now as they certainly don't have to have you beat.
Once the stacks get small, every pot is big. Big pots are usually best won as quickly and safely as possible.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I decided to give the PP tourney a try last night, and entered Round 1 for the Omaha/8 tourney. Amazingly, even though I only got pieces of 5 or 6 pots all night, I managed to hang around until close to the end, going out in 18th when I went all-in on a 987 flop with A248 and missed.
Figuring that it would be a typical PP game (freeroll, so lots of bad calling), I decided to play ultra-tight...play A + 2 cards to a wheel (sometimes 234 if the fourth card was a good one), nut flush draws with another low card, and hardly anything else. I wanted to be drawing only to the nuts (preferably both ways), and jam the pot when the nuts arrived, to punish anyone who came in with an average hand. My strategy seemed to work to some extent, as the few pots I took in were considerable (3 scoops, and a hand where I turned the nuts both ways, but was counterfeited for low on the river). I never seemed to be able to amass a large amount of chips, though, mostly due to not playing many hands, and was quite short-stacked once the limits got to 100/200 and higher.
I'm going to be trying this again tonight...are there any modifications I should be making (particularly to my starting hand requirements)?
--Chris
As long as there is still a lot of multi-way action all through the tourney, then playing only the top 10-15% of starting hands is going to be correct. It's not until things tighten up considerably that you modify your hand selection much. If it reaches the point where you're getting 2-3 seeing the flop, or somebody raising and winning the blinds, then you can play the situation more than the cards. If it's still 6 or more every flop, then you simply must have good cards or wait.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Instead of playing 234 you can play A3 almost every time. It always good to have the A suited with other card than you have the possiblity to get a nut FLUSH.
Dave in Cali made a nice post below about a NL rebuy tourney he played, where the rebuys got you T1500, with a T2500 add-on at the end.
He said the tourney had a special rule that if you got AA cracked (before the final rebuy) that you got a bonus T1500 in chips.
I have been wondering what the proper strategy is for playing AA under those conditions?
Obviously it is better to get T1500 from another player than from the house, but at that early stage, with 63 players and mega-rebuys, your extra T1500 doesn't really skew the overall # of chips in play too much.
Easiest example is it's the first hand (so all have T1500) and you have AA; somebody bets all-in. It's a freeroll, because you either win the pot or get the T1500 back from the house.
What if there are 6 T50 limpers to you on the button? If you raise you might chase everybody and only win T300, when 70% (?) of the time you would win T1500 as the bonus if everybody checked it down from then on.
Put another way: when does the pot get big enough that winning it now or the EV of extra bets is larger than the incentive to face the largest possible # of opponents?
Well, if you have to go broke with AA, then you still need to play them in a way that gets you all-in. However, his post only mentioned getting beaten with AA, not getting busted.
So, I think I would simply call along with everyone else, and not make any bets or raises until the river. If my AA turned into such a monster hand (like As full) that I was very unlikely to lose, then I would do my best to get the most money into the pot at that time. If it appeared that I was going to lose, or at least had a reasonable chance of losing, I wouldn't want to bet anyone out of the pot.
The tricky part would be if the pot got bigger than T1500 by a significant margin. If you have a lot of chips in your stack, more than T1500, then going all-in to lose is a mistake. If you have less than T1500, but the pot is going to be a lot more than T1500, then there will be times you'd rather win the pot by getting others to fold. Funny if 6 people put in T500 each, and then a ragged flop came down. You'd like to bet all-in and take it down now, but if it will cost you the remainder of your T2500 stack to do so, and only a better hand is going to call your bet, you're in an awkward spot.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Funny if 6 people put in T500 each, and then a ragged flop came down. You'd like to bet all-in and take it down now, but if it will cost you the remainder of your T2500 stack to do so, and only a better hand is going to call your bet, you're in an awkward spot.
Seems like it is still worth it if you get 1500 back if you lose. It's as if you only have to bet 1000 but they have to call all 2500, right?
Yes, it just makes an interesting situation.
However, I wasn't kidding about the only getting called if you lose thing. I really meant exactly that. I've seen many situations where you know, based upon the opponents and the situation, that any hand that calls your all-in bet is ahead of you, while any hand that you beat will fold. This happens more with AA than you might think.
If you raise or reraise preflop, and then the flop comes ragged, you may be pretty certain that the specific opponent(s) either have nothing, 1 pair, or a set, and cannot have 2 pair or a real draw. If you bet the pot, they'll give you credit for the overpair, and fold everything but the sets, with which they are trapping.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I've been playing PP Stud/8 Tourneys at both the $10 and $20 levels. I'm in the money 60% of the time (eleven 1st, five 2nd, and three 3rd), out of 32 tries. I think I've been adapting to the short-handed part of the game fairly well, never having played any tournaments before these. I have questions however about how to change play and at what point.
1. I perceive the game starts to change at about the 5-handed level, where less-strong high-only hands win more than in the full (8-6 handed) game (hands such as 2 high pair or trips are cracked less often). Is this a correct perception?
2. If the above is valid, when should I play what I would call "regular high-only stud hands" that I would normally fold on 3rd street in a full game (for example, middle to high straight draws, or a live pair with high kicker)? Or should I still avoid these? I have continued avoiding high straight draws simply because there usually aren't enough callers and enough in the pot to justify chasing them.
3. How should I balance my chip position against whether or not to tackle ANY hand when the game starts to get short-handed? In one of the top three positions, I have been staying out of the way unless I've got a really premium hand.
4. Once a place has been assured, what further changes should I make, while balancing chip position? On 3rd st I've been folding anything not containing at least a pair, three flush, or three to a low and absoultely shunning straight draws. I've been raising with premium pairs from any position, including the bring-in. Is three-flush too loose? Is three to a low too loose? How about three to a low straight?
5. Heads-up: On 3rd, if the bring-in is low, I've been raising with any pair if my door card is a scare card, and occasionally raising with just a scary door card if I also have a high down-card. I vary it in case of show-down. If bring-in, I call a raise only with a premium pair or 3 baby cards. What adjustment should be made for chip position? It appears I can safely bully the other guy if I have at least twice as many chips.
The balancing of chip position against what hands to play and when to play them is a new thing for me. I'm hoping to glean some insights from you experienced tournament players. Also, are they any good books out there covering the topic? I'm interested only in stud right now, either high-only or stud/8.
Any info will be much appreciated.
Marilyn P.
Buy the 2+2 books on stud and hi-lo, they are very good. However, neither book discusses tourneys, nor playing very short-stacked (which always happens as you get near the end of a Paradise tourney).
The books do discuss playing short-handed. But, there is a big difference when you and/or the opponents only have a small number of bets. Drawing hands are not worth as much, because there is no betting left to pay you off once you make your hand. All the money is going in while you're drawing, then nothing once you hit. That doesn't mean you absolutely don't play them, you simply have to modify.
AKQ in a very short-handed game is NOT a drawing hand. It is probably the favorite over any single opponent, and maybe even against all 2-4 of them. The power of the A is huge, whether it's got 2 high cards or 2 low cards with it. The worst A is one with 1 high card and 1 low card.
Play the players, not the hands, when you get short-handed and short-stacked. If someone is capable of folding, they are your target more so than the loosey-goosey weak player. The loosey was your target in the beginning, now he's playing closer to correctly.
Have fun.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Something I've wanted to see change for quite a while now is the practice at many tournaments of bunching together payouts as the last table is approached (eg. 15-18th places all recieve...$say $1750... 19-24th get $1350) or a whole table 18-27th gets the same amount. I feel it is in the interest of fairness and good poker that all payments be graduated, even if it's only by $50 or whatever – by each place finished higher up the ladder. Glumped together payouts make for a different type of tournament strategy and don't honor finishing even a place or two higher than others in the race. This would be easy to adjust and probably be a welcome change for many players. Comments anyone... suggestions?
be gratefull---so much of the time the payouts are so top loaded that they leave nothing for the "also ran" guys!!!! Next consider that this "bunching" generally takes place only in events which have a very high # of entrants...for example, let's say 600....percentage wise there is hardly any difference between 19th and 20th,,, to be exact it is .0317 vs .0333=.0016.. not even two tenths!! So again, I say be gratefull. Jim
I don't see anything wrong with the practice. An example of one that does this is the TOC. If you finish 5th table you all get the same amount, same for 4th table, etc. Only the final table pays by position. You just have to adjust your strategy. If you're low on chips, you may play just to finish one table higher. Once you make that table, you can take some chances and try to build your stack. The main thing is to understand the payout and maximize your win based on the rules.
JohnnyD
I see your point.
However, here is the reason to NOT to what you suggest.
Typically, when you're first approaching the money, and also when you're just about to "move up" to a higher paying position (e.g., lose 1 more player and you go from 4 tables to 3), the separate tables are forced to play hand-for-hand. This means that every table will play at the exact same pace. This way, somebody at a table playing faster won't be disadvantaged by facing more risk than a player at a slow table. This practice sucks, but it's better than the alternative. It's very slow to play hand-for-hand, but if you didn't do it, everybody would be playing so slow that it would take even longer.
If the payouts were adjusted so you won a little more for each spot, then you would be in the dilemna above all the time. If you go hand-for-hand, it's slow. If you don't go hand-for-hand, it's slower. Why should I play this hand fast if I can slow it down, not lose anything by doing so, but maybe make an extra $50 or more by letting other folks knock themselves out faster? It would happen that way.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Anyone have any recommendations for tournament books? (P.S. I've never played in one)
Yup,
Start off by going to to www.gamblersbookstore.com.
They have a tournament package special that's well worth the money.
Get Package #1 and read thoroughly. Then.....You must get the "Championship No Limit & Pot Limit Hold'em" by TJ Cloutier....."Tournament Poker" by Tom McEvoy and "Championship Hold'Em" by both of them.
That will give you a good foundation for tournament play.
A good place for a beginner is "Tournament Tips from the Pros" by Smith(?). Very basic, and frequently too simplistic, but it gets some of the important concepts into your thinking.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'll be in Vegas Aug 2-5, and am interested in playing in a limit HE tourney. There are two on Saturday at noon. One is at the Orleans, $30 RB (1) $20; the other is at the Luxor, $25 Freezeout (20 player max).
My only tourney experience is at Paradise, but have read several books and frequent this forum, so I look forward to this experience.
Does anyone have an opinion on either of these events? Would one be better than the other due to my experience (or lack there of?)
I've read the posts about the Orleans event here, but know nothing about the one at the Luxor.
Thanks for your input.
I've never played in the freeze out but play in the Orleans tourneys daily when I'm out there. Take a shot and watch the players when they show down a hand. tourney goes about 5hrs if you make it to the final table. good play for the money , they use the tiered pay out. generally about 50 players but with the TOC there the week before there may be more players there. play tight early and you should make the later rounds.
Best I've placed yet is 3rd in the Hold'em and 5th in the Omaha/8 still looking for that first win. Good luck.
Go to the Orleans. It's more of a "real" tournament as opposed to the 20 player max at Luxor. The competition is not that tough for the Saturday tournament and the staff does a good job. I think you will enjoy the experience.
JohnnyD
final hand of 25/50. i have T950. i am in the cutoff.
i am dealt 
4 limpers. i limp. button limps. small blind calls. big blind checks. we see the flop 8 handed.
flop: 
everyone checks to mp (lap) he bets. his left folds and i raise figuring him for two overcards (he would have raised pre-flop with any pair). good play? everyone folds and he calls.
turn: 
he checks and i check behind him. my thinking is that this might be one of his overcards and he is trying for a check raise. good play?
river: 
he bets. i raise thinking he is now betting his King. good play? he re-raises. i call. should i have called?
he shows: 
damn. oh well, i went on to finish 2nd and he finished 8th.
any suggestions? bama gambler
I wouldn't have raised the river. Not because I think he has 2 pair, but because I think he either has a straight or trips.
Some folks like to bet straight draws, and with 8 folks I would often bet if I held JT on that flop. I figure I'm winning at least 1/3 of the time, so let's get money in the pot, since you would expect more than 2 callers here. Your raise on the flop is good, and maybe ruined his play. So, he checks and calls, and then bets when he makes his hand on the river.
Or, he flopped a set, and with 8 players figures he might as well bet out, he'll get callers, and maybe nobody will give him credit for that big of a hand. Instead, you raise and kill his action. He checks the turn figuring you'll bet, but you don't. He bets the river, knowing you may fold but you can't be ahead of him, and maybe you'll call with your pair of 8s. Instead you raise, he decides you can't have the straight, so he reraises.
There are lots of other scenarios, but I find these rather likely, knowing nothing about the opponent. In total, I think you lose more often than you win with regard to your raise. You have a strong enough hand that you'll win more often than you lose, but I think most of the hands you beat will fold to your raise, while none of the hands that beat you will ever fold.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
As an aside, does it even make sense to get involved in a tournament with 97s, even in late position and that many callers? Strikes me as a trouble hand. The only boards I like are 865xx or T86xx or 997xx. On the K987x board, I agree that I might "only" be facing AK, but JT is not unreasonable. And without the 7, on the board there's also T9 and 98 that I have to worry about.
I never in the world would've suspected K8 with that many callers and that early, but that's another reason not to play 97. In the early going of a Paradise tournament, let the K8o and 97s hands knock each other around, and play stronger hands against the survivors.
Early in a PP tournament is precisely the time to limp in for one bet with such a hand, if you expect to get paid off.
Now ATo I would toss in the soup..
M.
But what's going to pay you off on a board that cost you one bet to see? You have to hit the straight: in a Paradise tournament, you're taking a big risk that the 97s flush is beaten by the Q4s flush. Ok, maybe maybe play it on the button with five or six callers. If you don't flop, but have a draw, there's a good chance that you're going to get check raised on the flop (or have to call two bets cold with the risk of re-raises) when you call an early player's bet;
I'm ok with ATo in late position in an unraised pot and lots of callers. Eight times out of ten that means I have the best kicker for my ace, and I could well have the only A out there. Flop or drop. I wouldn't play it early.
thanks
Played in my second live tournament on Saturday at foxwoods (we do a one table tournament at my place twice a month, but that doesn't count)
20 dollar buy-in and a 10 dollar rebuy. 123 people...
First table wasn't too bad, one guy playing Tight-agressive but just kept getting sucked out when he did play and he busted before the end of the second round. Most of the other people were mostly novices. However, I couldn't get ANYTHING to play with and I've only slightly increased my stack by the first break.
After the break, I get moved to another table. They must have assembled this table from other tables because everybody at the table has MONSTER stacks, except me. I decide I'll tighten up more than I have been (as if that were possible) and start to pick my shots.
I am starting to get a feel for the table when I get moved AGAIN as they split up our table. I get to a new table and 2 of my 3 buddies get busted and they tell me my other buddy "No Foldem Fang" has a nice big stack.
The blinds are getting huge and the table is really tight. Almost 2 orbits go by without a flop. The "annoying Italian guy" is raising like a maniac and every time he is forced to show cards they are good.
Now no-foldem fang gets bumped to my table as they are down to about 27 people and it's 3 tables. I realize why his stack looks so big, he has tons of the 100 dollar chips that are about to be raced off. To top it off he's two seats to my right and he never folds, loves to play non-premium cards and I can usually count on him to bet anytime it's checked around and usualy raise.
Fang get's taken apart at this table, unfortuately, I'm not getting anything to relieve him of his chips and he busts out with 22 odd people left in the tournament. I am now hopelessly short stacked. I am afraid I am going to get blinded out and it's looking like I'm not going to make it when I get QQ in early position. All I have is the price of a small blind and I go all in. Annoying Italian Guy raises and it's all fold. Dealer starts dealing out cards and the flop is Q85 rainbow turn is a blank and the river is another 5. I am still alive.
I don't get anything again until my next small blind where I get AKs. I go all in which completes my blind and doesn't even make it 2 bets. I wind up with Aces full of kings and that's the last good hand I see before I bust out 15th and in the money.
I would have liked to place better, I didn't see too many hands where I played badly, so I felt good. Most importantly, annoying Italian guy was already in line collecting his 18th place finish so I lasted longer than him. :)
Congrats on your money finish. 123? Wow, that's bigger than I remember them being. But it's been quite a few months since I played in one of these weekenders.
I think you might be playing too tight when you're short-stacked. With very few exceptions, the only time you should be all-in preflop for less than 2-3 full bets is if you just lost a prior pot that put you down that short. You should never let yourself get blinded off to the point that you have less than 3 or so bets in your stack. Once you post 1/3 of your stack in the big blind, there really is (almost) no situation where you should fold the hand before getting it all in.
Back when you still had 3-4 or more bets, there was probably a hand you should have gone with to try and build up a stack. Often, you would have gone broke doing this. However, the times you win and end up a lot higher on the payscale than 15th more than make up for the times you go broke and get nothing.
It is hard to know when to play a worse hand than you normally would play. For most players, the first step is learning the discipline to fold marginal but not quite good enough hands. Now, the next step is learning when to not fold those hands.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
They said it was a "good turnout" but I remember it being just over a hundred (102) for the one I went to a couple of months ago.
I could tell I was playing too tight at some points. I felt like I was playing more like a ring game than a tournament.
I guess I gotta pick up a good tournament book. Any suggestions for a limit holdem tournament?
Well, after having to cope for the "illustrious" management at the Akwesasne Mohawk Casino, we got it to the final table and I was lucky enough to get there, although not in very good shape. With only T15000 in play and limits of 100-200 and 16 players remianing, the game was a total crapshoot. I had about T1200 and managed to get to the final 8 with only T400.
We'll get back to that later in a next post. Now, I am on tilt. A couple of problems with the managers. They don't have a clue...Each player started with T200, limits of 5-10, then 10-20, 25-50, 50-100, 100-200 etc....
They insist on doubling the limits per 2 round instead of per half hour, ok, so everyone gets to play the same number of hands. Well, not really because I started at a 7 player table while other tables had 8 so each round we played 1 less hand. And, since tables don't play the same time, we had a 10-15 minute break every 2 rounds because we had to wait for other tables to finish. I'm not done, at some point, with still 5 tables, one table had 4 players, another had 5 mine had 6 others 5 or 6. Why in the world did they not break any tables? Did I mention the limits doubled every 2 rounds? (that's a super 8 hands at the 4p table)
Also, the button antied for everybody, ok, but listen to this, if the button was all-in with his ante, he was automatically eliminated, wtf ? I argued that if every player antied for themselves, then any player going all-in with his ante would be allowed to play for all the antes, so he should be allowed to play for his ante. Nope it's dead money. How can a player with chips be eliminated without seeing a hand? The button ante was "live" and then "dead" (yes they changed it aduring the tournament)when management (correctly) realized that it was an ante not a blind. Also, as to not complicate stuff, they decided that one cannot double the limit when a player pairs his door card, let's make rules as we go along...
I had T225 left when the 50-100 level started, just barely trying to hang on, 4 hands later (which I all won) I had T1300 and was now chip leader!!!I told management this was getting ridiculous, that any skill involved was diminished to the point of simply choosing a good enough hand to go all-in with. No player still alive could go to the river without putting 75% of his stack. If there was any raise, then every player would have to go all-in. "Nope there is skill involved" he said. Well, sir, how many minutes have you spent playing this game ?
We actually had to redraw seats every 2 rounds when it got to the final 3 tables. Talk about moving players around! I spend more time on break or moving then playing.
And this is the best part, you can actually rebuy at the final table! Providing that the limit is still 100-200 (past that you can't) you can rebuy. Well, when we got to the final table yesterday, the limit was indeed 100-200.
And that only about yesterday's tournament. Don't get me started about other stuff.
Ok, I'm done now. Boy do I miss Foxwoods and Mike Ward. Greg, do you have a spare bedroom in the basement?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
No spare bed down there, but that spot of mold in the corner looks pretty cushy.
More seriously, find out which one person gets the final say on these issues. Schedule a regular, business-style, sit-down meeting with them. Start out by asking them what their goals are in offering these tourneys. It is likely to be either an incentive to bring more players into the room (and get them from the tourney to side games), or simply something they're offering because the players have said they want it.
In either case, there are lots of reasons why their current structure isn't meeting those goals. Explain those things to them. Don't waste your time talking about the skill or lack thereof in the structure. As a businessman running a cardroom, I don't care about skill. I care about money. Explain to me why I'll make more money by running a better event. Why the better structure will make the players happier. Why they will get more play in the tourney, yet still end up in the side games sooner. Why you want the trophy to be something that the players all respect, not a joke that goes to that day's luckiest player, but something they all wish they could display at home.
You can probably think of a lot more and better arguments. Think on his level, just as if it were a poker game!
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Playing at a tournament in Calgary on the weekend. Here's the format:
Limit dealers choice, starting at 5-10 with rebuys. One 30 player tourney on Friday and one 30 player tourney on Saturday, with the 15 survivors each day moving to the final on Sunday, where they will play limit until the final table which will be pot limit.
Except only 17 showed up on Friday. And 14 showed up on Saturday. So, with both days having ended at limits of about 150-300 or maybe 300-600 with lots of rebuys done, I'd guess the average chip count was about 4-5K after the 2K add on.
So we show up on Sunday. Limits are back to 5-10!! And whats more REBUYS ARE ALLOWED AGAIN with ANOTHER ADD ON! Sheesh. I busted out and didn't bother rebuying because I had no idea if the rules would change again in mid stream (someone didn't show up on Sunday and they were getting blinded off until they decided to have a VOTE among the players to pick this players chips up).
Awfully run. Too bad, because the casino is really trying to get their poker room going.
David,
I opted against entering that very tournament for the simple reason that no two managers could give me the same answer to my questions about the format. Absolutely horridly run judging from your story.
Yes, they are busting a hump to get poker back, but they still have a ways to go.
One should think that as soon as all of 14 people showed up on Saturday that they would go straight to the finals..
Yeech.
M.
Same tournament as below.
HAND 1
Still early in the tournament, limits are 10-20. Total of T10 ante. The play had to be fast. You can still rebuy. I have about T200 and I get (66)2 and bring it in for 10, (sixes are live) call, call, fold, fold, raise, cold call, I call, all call. On fourth street I catch a 6. Woman on my right catches an ace and is high (xx)3A. She is fairly aggressive and bets. I call, primarly because I know she is going to bet on 5th and raising now won't knock out anybody but on 5th it will. All call to the guy who raised preflop and now shows (xx)9T he raises, A3 woman calls and now I decide to reraise. It works, all fold but 9T ans 3A players. 5th street I catch blank, T9 catches 9, lady catches 3. Check, check to me I bet, both call. 6th streetI catch blank, but now they both show 2 pairs(xx)T99T and (xx)3A3A. Damn! 3A3A bets, what do you do?
HAND 2
This one is probably pretty simple but I just wanna make sure it was ok. Final table, 8 players, pays top 3 (50-30-20). I have shortest stack by far, T400. limits are 100-200. I'm in seat 5. Button (the ante--100) is in seat 8. I get (AsQd)Jd. 1 ace and 1 king are dead. Diamonds, Q, J , T are live. Woman on my right brings it in with a deuce. I figure this is as good a hand I will get before the button gets to me, I have to make a move, I raise and isolate her. And she eliminates me with a boat. I have would have liked a pair to start with but I feel this was a good enough hand to push it. Comments ?
Also, like I said in the thread below, this was a total crapshoot. I felt like winning one hand could give me dealing power. (I'm pretty sure I would have gotten a deal had I doubled up since they did make a deal right after I busted) My question is, did anyone ever pull of a deal when really shortstacked ? What arguments did you use?
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
AQJ is plenty of a hand when short-stacked and 4-handed. It sounds like you'd have gotten 1 more free hand before you were the ante? If there was a reasonable chance that one of these players gets themselves eliminated on this hand or the next, then maybe you should fold and let it happen, since you're so short-stacked that even doubling up doesn't get you that far. So, it depends upon how much aggressive gambling the other 3 were engaging in.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
...we were 8-handed Greg.
care to comment about hand 1 and the deal thing?
thanks,
Nicolas
yes you were 8-handed, and you even said so clearly in your original post. I don't know why I had 4-handed stuck in my head (apparently, I thought I read it in your post, don't ask me why).
With 8 players left and paying only 3, and ZERO ante until it's your turn, your only fear here is catching the bring-in with garbage. I might wait out this hand, but probably not. This is a pretty strong hand, and anybody with 1 pair smaller than your Jd isn't that far ahead of you. If they have AA or QQ in the hole, then you're in trouble, but otherwise it's a reasonable racing hand. However, if you wait, you'll have to put up T100 in a couple of hands, and that money is dead. Then, if you get hit with the bring-in, you're pot-stuck.
It's close, I think, but I would play this hand, as I don't want to wait until I lose 1/4 of my stack to the ante. If I do that, even if I do win my all-in, my stack is now T200 smaller than it would have been.
As for hand 1, what can I say? You're in a shitty place here, and are likely to be screwed no matter what you do. It really comes down to knowing these players, which I realize may not be possible at this stage of the tourney. If they're full, it you're drawing to 1 out. If they're not full, they (should) have 3 pair, in which case they have as many as 12 outs between them to beat you. But, the pot is huge already. I would probably call this bet, figuring that TT99 can't raise because AA33 looks like aces full, so even with tens or 9s full, they should only call. However, if these guys start to cap the betting, you have to quit. But, if it looks like you can reach the showdown for 2 big bets, I would call. I've seen plenty of times where they had 3 pair or even just the 2 pair, but started with a 3-straight or 3-flush and got aggressive with their scary boards. If you knew them, you'd be able to know how possible this was.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Can anyone recommend good books on No Limit Holdem, or No Limit Poker in general? Can you say what's good about them? I prefer theoretical books, like those of Sklansky and Malmuth, rather than anecdotal books.
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
There are really only 2 books to choose from, as far as I know. SuperSystem by Brunson, and Championship Pot Limit and No Limit Holdem by Cloutier and McEvoy. Neither is a 2+2-style book in the sense that you're asking. Both teach some good things, and both are a bit simplistic.
To be honest, the theoretical aspects of NL play aren't anywhere near as important as hand-reading skills. If you can put a player on a hand reliably, you'll win enough to afford quite a few theoretical mistakes. If you can't put him on a hand with enough success, you won't win at all unless you're facing a table full of very weak players.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You might want to try pot-limit and no-limit poker by ciaffone and reubens. This has a discussion on pot building/bluffing techniques that is quite good. What I like about it is the concentration on the pot-limit no-limit side of things, rather than individual games.
How could I forget this book? It's the best of the 3.
Now, did I forget a 4th?
Sorry, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
...yours! And I'm not sure it would not be better than 4th.
I'm crossing my fingers...
:-)
Nicolas
I believe Ciafonne's book to be far the best. There are some annecdotes but primarily involves nolimit thinking. This book is not theoritical however. It is somewhat situational.
I recently played in a small (12-player) home tournament. The lineup is a mixture of good and decent limit players. Most (including me) have very little experience with no limit.
Hand 1)
We're down to 3 players, the blinds are at 15-30. I'm the in the BB chip-leader with about T1200, UTG is second chipleader with about T900, SB has about T300.
I pick up 4d 3d, UTG folds, SB calls. He's been limping in the SB quite a lot and has frequently pushed all in on the flop or turn.
Flop: Kd Jd 8h
A tiny flushdraw, not great but ok heads-up I suppose. SB checks. I consider a semi-bluff, but I really want to eliminate him from the tournament (and collect the termination
nt
I recently played in a small (12-player) home tournament. The lineup is a mixture of good and decent limit players. Most (including me) have very little experience with no limit.
Hand 1)
We're down to 3 players, the blinds are at 15-30. I'm the in the BB chip-leader with about T1200, UTG is second chipleader with about T900, SB has about T300.
I pick up 4d 3d, UTG folds, SB calls. He's been limping in the SB quite a lot and has frequently pushed all in on the flop or turn.
Flop: Kd Jd 8h
A tiny flushdraw, not great but ok heads-up I suppose. SB checks. I consider a semi-bluff, but I really want to eliminate him from the tournament (and collect the termination bonus), so I hope to catch on the turn and hopefully snap a bluff. I check.
Turn: 3s, Board: Kd Jd 8h 3s
A pair with the flush draw, it could have been worse. SB fires his remaining T240. I stop and think for a bit. He might be trying to buy the pot at this point, and even if he has a decent hand I still probably have 14 outs. I call.
He flips over Qh 4h and I show my 4d 3d with a grin.
I catch another diamond on the river and he's out.
Hand 2)
We're down to heads up play. I have about T1500 and my opponent has about T900. We have been playing the "game of pushing the blinds back and forth" for a while now, stealing our fair share from each other.
I'm in the BB and find Kh 3h. He raises me T60. I stop and ponder a bit, if I do hit a great flop (two-pair or a flush) I might be able to take a big chunk of his stack. I call.
Flop: Ad 5h 3s (A wierd sidenote. In about 15 minutes we saw 3 flops, and all 3 of them were A 5 3 rainbow.)
If he bet's he can have the pot. He checks. I pause for a second and think. I got bottom pair and good kicker. If he's trying to check-raise me I'm going to disapoint him. I check.
Turn: 7s, Board: Ad 5h 3s 7s
He fires T100 at me. I stop to think again. He could have an ace, but then again, he could be bluffing. If he has an ace I think that I'll get paid of if I hit another 3 or a K. I call.
River: Ac, Board: Ad 5h 3s 7s Ac
He fires another T100 at me. Since I was half suspecting him to be bluffing the turn I think the ace was a good card. At least it reduces the chances of him holding one. I call and take down the pot against his QJo.
I went on to win the tournament. (The last hand was a suckout but I'm allowed one suckout per session aren't I?)
All comments appreciated.
Sincerly, Andreas
Your plays are fine, as long as you truly are sure of your reads. The problem with the hands you used to catch bluffs is that they only beat bluffs. Again, your plays are not mistakes, unless they are reads that are apt to be wrong next time.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Actually on the first hand I am happy to move in on the flop. He only has 240 left? It would be easy to move in, likely forcing him to fold. I dont like checking hoping to get him to "bluff" the turn when you have a 4 high. It seems you might call the turn with just the flush draw anyway, so move in the flop and force him to committ all of his chips here to play.
If I wouldn't have made the pair on the turn I would have folded to his bet. Why give him the chance to double up? I would probably have gotten his chips sooner or later anyway. But with the pair the odds of being best combined with the chance of sucking out if I wasn't just seemed to good to pass up.
I might just be trapping myself by trying to trap him.
Sincerly, Andreas
I understand what you are saying, but I still think you had the perfect flop for playing aggresively. He cant really hurt you with a call, yet he cant even really call unless he has some sort of hand. This is typical Super System stuff. He ususally will NOT call (which is fine). Like you said if you missed the turn you would not call--and if you hit the flush on the turn HE will likely not call. So you have to hit one of 6 outs on the turn to actually get him to play with you (maybe), and you still may need to hit to win.
Better to win what is there, or let him know when he plays with you he will be committing all of his chips, he will be more reluctant to play with you in the future. Which is fine.
When he does call (say 1 in 5 times?) You are only about a 2-1 dog (actually less depending on live pair draws) and maybe a 3-1 dog if he has a bigger flush draw with no pair.
I know this sounds harsh, but you were slowplaying nothing. Also your check on the flop induces a bluff on the turn, but you really cant beat a bluff on the turn, so take it here or make him pay.
I have only $400.00 when the big blind arrives. I post $200.00. The big stack raises and the button calls. I look down and find 8-6-5-3 rainbow. I call and look to hit a small straight. The flop is K-Q-J rainbow. Big stack checks and the botton checks. The turn is an 8. Again, there are two checks. The river is a deuce. Two more checks. My pair wins the pot, since both opponents were playing Ace/deuce. I was surprised based on that flop. Joe
That does appear lucky.
Why did you wait to post half your stack in the big blind? Unless the cards were truly miserable, you probably should have raised all-in with one of the earlier hands to try and get it heads-up with the big blind.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
They had just raised the blinds and I failed to pay attention to the clock I won't let that happen again. Yes, I was very lucky. I was able to build my stack up to $2400;however, I didn't get anything playable until I was down to $800. I called the big blind with 2 Kings and Ace/5 suited. Since I was all-in, I was hoping to go against the big blind only. Unfortunately, the button called.I flopped an ace and my king kicker was good until the river when a seven hit giving the button a jack high straight. It was a great experience. There were 588 entered. As you know, the Orleans always puts on a great tournament. Good luck to you in the TOC. Joe
Next week I'm playing at Hollywood Park's Crazy Eight Tournament(16th-thru-19th), and I notice they're featuring the Tears structure where they withhold 3%. So if you happen to finish well in an event, do you tip? And if yes, what would be reasonable?
Thanks
If they're withholding enough to pay the dealers a fair wage, I woulldn't tip any extra.
Then again, I'm one cheap bastard.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
i am looking for some advice on heads-up play in paradise tournaments. for example, what hands do you call or raise with from the small blind. what kind of hands do you raise or re-raise with from the big blind. when it comes down to two people the blinds are usually so large that one or two raises usually gets one of the two players all in. with this in mind is it correct to limp from the small blind with a big pocket pair in order to trap an aggressive opponent?
bama gambler
It all depends upon that one opponent. Yes, if you're sure he'll raise, then limp with AA and trap him. If you have no idea, then probably raise with it yourself. What hands should you raise with in the small blind? Depends how often you think he'll fold. If it's often enough, you raise with any 2 cards. If not, you need to be more selective.
Sorry this isn't helpful, but all you can do for heads-up play with so few bets in each stack is hope you catch winning cards, and play the best you can against this opponent. The next opponent will be different, and will require a very different strategy.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Following a low stakes pot limit tournament I heard myself say "did'nt see a hand for the 1st hour and half..."
On reflection it struck me that might be the very thing an over tight player might say to explain why he had bust out just after the rebuys having hardly made a bet.
The difficulty is I am not sure how to tell a genuine run of dead cards from me going tight. Does anyone have any suggestions as how I can try to analyse my play short of making detailed notes at the table?
Almost nobody plays too tight.
With one major exception.
Once your stack starts getting short in a tourney (or the single opponent's stack if it's heads-up), you must loosen up one way or another. You can't be folding your way to the blinds that are going to eat up 1/3 of your stack without playing something. 1/4 of your stack, maybe, but only if you're nearing the money.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Are there any tournaments spread in Vancouver? I prefer PL/NL tournaments.
Derrick
Sorry, but there are no tournaments of any kind in Vancouver. Tragic but true; the 10-20 games at the Holiday Inn are worth rowing here from Tierra del Fuego, however.
Murray
Early in a 12 player HE NL tournament. Two tables with 6 players each.
Blinds are at 2-4 and I have T250 in chips. This was the second hand of the tournament so I'm still at the initial stake. I'm in the cut-off and pick up Tc 8c.
3 players limp to me, I decide to play my cheese and limp. Button folds, SB calls and BB checks. We take the flop 5 handed.
Flop: Ac 9c 2c
A monster flop! It's checked to me and I bet the pot, T20. All fold to the guy just to my right (MR) who calls. I don't know much about this guy but he could be calling with Kc or a decent A.
Turn: 3h, Board: Ac 9c 2c 3h
As blank as blanks get. MR checks, I fire again and bet the pot, T60. MR calls. Now I wonder what he is calling with, my best idea is the Kc.
River: 2h, Board: Ac 9c 2c 3h 2h
MR fires a small bet, T30. The pot is just to big for me to lay down and I pay him off. He shows Kc 6c for the flopped nut-flush.
Did I bet to agressivly or was I betting to weakly? Should I have folded to his river bet?
Any comments appreciated.
Sincerly, Andreas
I think you played it fine. I would have lost more with a bigger bet on the turn. I would hate for a set (or 2 pair) to fill up on me cheaply. On the river it is hard to see what you can beat. If he filled up you lose, and if he has a bigger flush you lose. You can only beat a pure bluff, or a smaller flush (of course you can beat trips but that seems unlikely).
This is one reason I struggle early in NL events and do better later in the events . . . It is because I stop playing those hands later. They can be very hard to get off of when you hit. And, of course if you are TOO good at getting off of them then why play them to begin with.
10-8 suited is my second favorite rag hand to 9-7 suited. It always gets me into trouble early, later I just stop playing them.
When somebody is calling in NL with 3 to a suit on the flop, they're either there or have a big draw (or they're a moron, but I won't assume that about a guy I haven't even seen). Like you guessed, the nut flush draw, or a set. Sure, they might have less, but only if they're weak or you've been bluffing a lot.
So, once he calls you on the flop, you need to think, is it a draw or a slowplay? As always, it's hard to tell the difference. I don't think any of your decisions on this hand are unreasonable, and you may have played it perfectly. His river bet is either a joke, or a tester bet to see where you're at. He may figure that you'd bet big with your lesser flush, but also if you had been pushing a set that just filled up, and he won't know the difference. However, he figures that with the board pairing, you won't raise his tester bet without a full house.
I would never lay down your hand for just T30 on the river with a pot of T210, expecially since calling won't cripple your stack or anything.
Tough spot. If you played it wrong, it's because you failed to determine he had you beat by his mere calling, which is a failing of most of us.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This this tournament featured some very inexperienced players. But they weren't morons. I mean that they basically knew the moves but didn't know the details. (As for instance that river bet which obvoiusly was for value but much, much to small.) Most of players bet to weakly troughout the hands on all round and were chocked at my pot, or twice the pot bets.
I guess I'll stick top flopping straights with my rags.
Sincerly, Andreas
Andreas,
I think you played it just fine. If it was me, I think I would have lost a lot more because I probably would have made a much bigger bet on the turn (like Russell said in his response). I would have thought that your hand was way ahead and would have bet more on the turn to make it expensive for MR to draw (of course we didn' know he had you all the way). On the river, there's nothing you can do but call his small bet. What would you have done if he shoved all-in on the river? Do you fold or call?
Also, if I'm MR, I'd probably check-raise you all-in on the turn since I have the absolute nuts and the pot's already a pretty decent amount. What would you have done in that situationif faced with a huge raise?
It would be very, very difficult for me to lay down your hand in both hypothetical situations above. My initial response would be that I'd probably call and be busted out.
If he moved all-in on the river after the board pairing I would probably (not sure) have folded. Had he check raised me all in on the river on the other hand...
If he checkraised me all in on the turn I would have called and been eliminated.
Sincerly, Andreas
Pokerpages.com indicates that only 9 spots are being paid in each of the Orleans Open Events. Does anyone know if this is accurate? If it is, doesnt that seem awfully short for that many entries? Curious to hear what others have to say.
I know nothing.
However, I suspect they are reporting only the final 9, but many more are being paid.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I was talking to someone who just returned from the Orleans Open and I asked him how many places they paid. He wasn't sure exactly but knew it was at least 3 tables. Most of these tournaments that pay more than one table only publish the final table.
JohnnyD
Thanks. I thought it didnt make any sense.
On Sunday night with 588 entries they paid 27 places. A local I know finished 11th and received $1000.00. Joe
I played in four of the Orleans daytime tournaments and the top 27 places were paid in all cases. The payoff for the bottom 9 was about double the buy-in and it went up from there. Not that I know anything about payoffs since I didn't score in any of them. Still, there is always another time.....
400+ entries pay 3 tables.
I believe at 200+ they pay 2 tables.
Ken Poklitar
PL dealer choice tournament with 3 blinds - 4 players remaining with a standard payout (40% 20% 10% 5%). O8 is called. I am the short stack in the BB with T7K after posting the blind (2K 2K 4K).
2nd chip leader with T50K makes it 8K UTG. Chip leader with T80K folds in the 1rst SB. Small stack in the 2nd SB with T12K after posting completes the bet to 8K, leaving him with T6K.
So there are T22K in the pot and it costs me T4K. I interpret the small raise by UTG to be a good but not great hand not willing to be raised by the chip leader without position. Obviously the SB has a good hand. I look down and see As24sK !!! and decide to play with both such a good hand and great odds.
I call, leaving me with T3K and the possibility to take a decision on the flop depending on the flop and what will do the SB.
Flop comes K 7 3 rainbow (with a spade)and SB goes all-in. I call as does UTG and everybody shows his hand: A245 for SB, KKxx for UTG.
Turn and river are J 3, giving the whole pot for UTG and eliminating SB and myself, for a chop of 3rd and 4th place (as it is the rule).
Comments appreciated (if I dont play the hand I finish at least 3rd).
> (if I dont play the hand I finish at least 3rd)
That's fine, but is 3rd all you were playing for? Even if so, you couldn't possibly know that SB wouldn't take the pot at the time you made a decision on your hand. You did say that he "obviously had a good hand." The results are making you question your judgment.
In any case, I don't think you can't not take a chance on this hand. You're in the money already, you have an excellent hand, and if you scoop, you likely become 2nd chip leader with 3 players left. You made the right call, IMO.
Now, if there were 5 players left, the dynamic totally changes...
--Chris
I meant to say that I think you can't not take a chance on this hand. Damn those triple negatives!
--Chris
I think your call is almost mandatory. If you fold to move up a spot, you're counting on the SB to lose. Well, he might check-and-fold the flop, thus staying alive, or he might win the damn pot outright, and become a big stack himself. So, if you fold here, there is probably much less than a 50% chance that you move up a spot right away, and you'll now have to post 2/3 of your remaining stack in the small blind, and be forced to play any hand you're dealt.
You have a pretty good hand, very good really for the circumstances. Call and see the flop. Once that flop hits, you must play on, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
of course the other guys are right. really no decision here.
what seems VERY IMPORTANT is... where is the other 25%... you said they pay four places 40/20/10/5 ???? Jim
I am going to be participating in a limit HE tourney (actually it's going to rotate between HE and 7CS, but I'll just wing it on the stud) that has 10 participants that will be split into 2 tables of 5. When playing 5-handed HE, does the button become the only "late position" seat, while UTG and UTG2 are "early position", or is the notion of early/middle/late position out the window in a short-handed game like this?
Thanks,
-David
The button becomes HUGE IMHO. You will get it more often so good button play is that much more essential. You will also play more hands 5 handed then 9 or 10 handed, so you would like most of them to be on the button. UTG can be tricky when you know the other players will be playing that much more often. Blind defense is also critical 5 handed, but the button is where your money will be made.
David,
In a five handed game you should play UTG as if you were two to the right of the button in a full handed game.
I recently folded 88 UTG in a NL tourney last week and it's really bothering me. It was mid-way through the tourney and I had a slightly below average stack. The table was fairly aggressive and there were a lot of big raises (often all-in raises) preflop. As it turned out, everyone folded to the BB who basically took the SB's chips. But that's besides the fact. I'm wondering how big a pocket pair you guys are comfortable playing UTG or UTG+1? Let's assume you have an average chip stack on a full table. I would generally raise 3xBB with 99 and higher. With 66,77, and 88, I sometimes raise, limp, or fold depending on my gut instincts. With 55 and lower, I usually limp or fold. (I play much more aggressively when it's short-handed.) Was folding 88 just plain weak in this situation? I must admit that my confidence has been hurting a bit as of late because I haven't been doing well lately in both tourney and ring play (after doing extremely well a couple of weeks ago).
I'd really appreciate some comments and advice here. Flame away!
I think it s not a bad move to raise 3bb with. If you have 77,66,55,44 and it s many players in the pot for like 1bb ...I think you should call and see *FLOP*
Just one problem with this strategy...how do you know there'll be several limpers if you're the first to act?
folding 88 UTG in a NL tourney is often the correct play. Often calling is correct, as is raising. The reasons to pick one play over another depend upon the style of the table, your stack size, their stack size, etc. Sorry this post doesn't help you much.
However, if there is a high chance you'll be reraised for all or a lot of your chips, and you won't have any real idea what the guy has (because he's doing it with so many different hands), then raising here is probably wrong. You can't call a major reraise with 88, as you're probably about 50:50 to win, and if a third player gets involved, you'll often be winning slightly less than 1/3 of the time.
Here's a scenario that can work for you. Let's say blinds are 5,10, and everbody has about 500. If you raise to 30 or 40, the reraise is probably to 100 or 150 or so, and that's too much for your hand and position. However, if you limp, the raise is probably to 30-50, which you can afford. This play is only correct if there is a high probability of your being paid off when you flop a set, however.
Your losing streak is less than 2 weeks old? Please! I don'd want you to think I'm being insulting, but a good or bad streak of anything less than a dozen sessions is almost 100% meaningless. 2 or 3 dozen, it's starting to have some meaning.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
if you are UTG, that means the blinds are close...if you have small stack which blinds will impact heavily. then you will probably want to bet any pair.
if that is not the case, then bet AA, or KK only because you have stated that there is a lot of preflop, allin action.
of course, as has been pointed out, your stack size etc may alter this. Jim
One other consideration which has not been mentioned is what point is it in the tournment. If it is early in the tournment tend to limp. Your goal is to double through at this point. if you are raised simply fold, you have lost little. If you get the cheap flop and it comes A82, then you really have something. If it misses and there are overcards, probably best to fold and await a better opportunity.. Of course if there is a lot of pre flop raising, I would tend to fold the hand in early position during this portion of the tournment..
Late in the tournment when the blinds are meaningful, that is the time to be aggressive and take them down.
Middle tournment is tougher. it really depends on your stack size and how important is that blind to you.. Given an average stack I would still tend to fold early position, but raise in middle/late position especially if the blinds are somewhat tight..
Orlenes Open No Limit Tournment held yesterday. 300 players, typical payout for large tournment with 27 places payed. Just before the dinner break with blinds at $150/300. Board says 66 left although it is probably closer to 60. I have $ 3700 which is one of the smaller stacks at the table.
Cutoff is a very aggressive player and has been stealing my blinds all day. The drawback to playing back at him is that once he commits to a hand he tended to see it through. He called several large re raises with medium pairs and once made an all in call with QT suited. I did see him make a couple of nice laydowns though. All in all I evaluated him as a very good instinctive player. His stack is about $7000.
I have what I think is a weak tight image having seen the flop only a half dozen times in the 3 hours or so I had been at the table, although I had been forced to show down 4 hands, 3 of which were fairly weak . ( Position type all in raises that were called).
I am in the BB with AJo, the above described cutoff raised to $1200. I reraised all in. Right play or wrong play even if I did lose the hand.
You are still far from the money. You say you have a smallish stack but I think you don't need to panic, since you still have over 10x the BB.
I think AJo will be in the lead often enough here given your description of the player. So, I think you should play the hand.
You say the opponent is very likely to call your all-in, since he's done so before with less than premium hands, so why not give him a chance to really make a mistake and wait for the flop to go all-in? I would suggest flat calling and moving-in on the flop regardless of the flopped cards.
That way, should the flop come something like K T 5, your opponent could have a hard time calling with say a pocket pair of 8. Or with a board of 7-6-2 if he has AK, he could figure you for a hand like 99 and wrongly fold.
Notice that this way you end up all-in anyway but now being first to act is good because you could make him lay down a better hand. This will not always work but the time it does can make this play a slightly better one that moving in preflop.
Hope this helps,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I would let it go, I think.
Your edge here sounds pretty small. Against a random hand, AJo wins slightly more than 60%. However, we can be pretty sure he doesn't have a truly terrible hand, right? I mean, you don't say anything to suggest he's been raising with 23s, 94o, etc., i.e., truly garbage hands. So, once you eliminate the really bad stuff, your win rate probably goes from ~62% down to more like 52%. Admittedly, there is T450 in dead money, so your getting better than 1:1 payoff, but I still fold here.
You have plenty of chips relative to the blinds, so I would try to steal a pot or 2 myself, while waiting for a really premium hand to play all-in with. If you get dealt hands that are too weak and find yourself getting blinded down to where you only have 5x or less in blinds, then you take a stand like this.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
sorry but I must disagree with both Greg and The Prince...I like your bet. You have allready decided that he is stealing blinds, his being in front of you makes it harder for you to steal blinds later. Seems like he will need a made hand to risk half of his stack now, so go for it. Jim
jellow wrote: "Seems like he will need a made hand to risk half of his stack now, so go for it."
Yes, it would seem that way. However, the original post clearly stated that this was not the case, and that he would call with a lot of hands here. That being the case, do you change your play if you were sitting there?
If there were a decent chance of winning immediately, given the loose standards of the original raiser, I would say go all-in here. However, since there appears to be little or no chance of winning without being the best hand at showdown, I still say pass.
Raising is not a terrible mistake. Our hero is going to be the favorite over the range of hands that the raiser might have. However, his edge won't be very big, he still has plenty of chips left in his stack, and it is for everything.
I don't believe in passing on situations where your edge is large just because you must risk your whole stack. I do believe in passing when your edge is small, however.
Now, if this were the final portion of the WSOP, and I could see that there were no soft opponents remaining, only good solid pros with a variety of winning styles, I might go for it here. In this hypothetical, my edge on future hands rates to be small or negative, while my edge on this hand is clearly positive, albeit tiny. But a tiny positive edge is better than any size of negative edge, eh?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree with Greg. I agree that you should pass here. I have made the same move you did, and regretted it every time. I ususally made the move for the same reasons as you, still the wrong play. You are not that big a favorite when you are one at all, and may be a much bigger dog at other times. If the guy has Q-10, you are maybe 55-45. But what about when he has A-K?
The screwy thing about this hand is that you are realistically hoping to get your chips in as a small dog, against say 88 or 99. I would rather make your play with 88 or 99 than with A-J. This way you can be the small favorite against hands like A-K through A-10, and a big favorite to smaller pair. Yes you will be a big dog to 10 10 or JJ, but A-J would have been a dog to those hands also.
yes, Greg, I did consider what had been said about other player eallier. And I considered what he said about his own image, which is such that it adds to the liklehood that other player will fold now that he has built his stack a bit.
BUT I think that your advise, and explanation there of, are VERY good. The only tiny concern about the "wait till later" is ...what will later bring and when...he may go for several rounds and not get a better chance than this. lol Jim
Jellow wrote: > BUT I think that your advise, and explanation there > of, are VERY good.
Thanks.
> The only tiny concern about the "wait till later" > is ...what will later bring and when...he may go for > several rounds and not get a better chance than > this.
Of course. And we've all passed on an opportunity because we decided it wasn't quite good enough, and then never saw a better one for the rest of the tourney. However, much more often than not, a better opportunity than this will present itself before it is too late to be meaningful.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Playing a NL tournament last night, down to the last 15 or so (3 prizes).
There is about 60K in chips in the tournament. Blinds 200-400, chip leader (about T10K) in mid position raises to 1000. Second chip leader reraises all in to 5700 from cutoff. Button calls all in for about 3500. SB calls for about 1500. BB calls for about 2500. Chip leader grimaces and decides to call given the huge pot and the fact that he will still have a fair sized stack if he loses.
SB has KdJd
BB has AdQd
Chip leader has 8c8h
Cutoff has 10s10h
Button has AsKs
The hand sparked quite a debate afterwards about the average result. Can someone run a simulation and tell me who wins the most?
For the results oriented, with a (now huge) crowd watching, the flop came down K-K-3 and the place went wild. At least I thought it was wild until the 10 hit on the turn, at which point it REALLY went nuts. The river blanked off and cutoff knocked out 3 people at once and took a big chunk out of (now former) chip leader. I was in cutoff with the tens and went on to a deal making finish. Chip leader is one of the better tournament players who we play with, and I thought there was a good chance he was stealing the blinds with a fair ace or a small pocket pair, so I pushed all in to just win the pot (T1600) right there. I was stunned when everyone called.
David
Comments about the play of this hand are welcome as well.
Well, the blinds are both foolish gamblers, especially the SB with KdJd. If he has any edge here (before we know all the cards), it can't be big at all, and even if he has some edge, it is the kind that gets you eliminated a lot. The BB hasn't made as bad a call, but it's still very wrong, IMO.
The original raise by the chip leader is fine, of course. He's got a medium pair and the lead, so any raise with any 2 cards is acceptable if the blinds will fold enough. With 88, he's ahead of the average hand a very stubborn BB would play. Your raise is good also, as long as you're right that the chip leader will lay down often, and that he is raising liberally enough such that he won't be ahead of you very often. The call by the button with AsKs is marginally bad, but not terrible. His problem is one of you 2 chip hogs will often have AA or KK, leaving his AKs drawing too slim to justify the call. Here, even if all others had folded, and the chip leader also folded, he is taking slightly the worst of it in terms of win rate for a payoff of less than 2:1. If he was highly confident that this would be the result, then fine. However, whenever you have AA or KK, or the chip leader does, or somebody behind does, he's in trouble. Enough so that I believe it offsets the payoff edge he's getting when it's just you and him.
Here are some numbers from my simulator, after running the 5 hands to showdown 250,000 times.
SB KdJd 12.55% BB AdQd 19.52% Chip leader 8c8h 18.41% Cutoff 10s10h 26.69% Button AsKs 22.84%
So, you are the favorite of the 5, mostly because the AK has 2 dead cards. AK still has 4 simply outs, plus his flush and straight outs. KJ and AQ have their flush outs crippled a little, and each only has 3 simply outs to beat you. 88, of course, only has 2 simple outs, and very rare flush and straight outs. You win whenever they all miss, or when hearts come, or when you you make a rare set or better without them straighting or flushing you.
However, even being the favorite, you wish they had all just folded. The final pot size here is T18,900, and 26.69% of that is T5,044. Of course, sometimes you'll lose the main pot and 1 or 2 sidepots, and still win the final sidepot between you and the chip leader, so my simply math of total pot size times win% is misleading. However, if they all fold, you profit by T1600. When they all call like this, I'm sure your profit is significantly less, but my simulator doesn't tell me how often you finish 2d, 3rd, etc., and to whom.
Glad you caught that turn card. I suspect the chip leader would've been whining about his bad beat, if he were the typical player.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for the info. Your thinking pretty closely matches what I was thinking; I wanted to win the pot right there and thats why I bet it up so large. Chip leader really didn't want to call because he was sure he was beat, and worse, he was sure he was beaten by me, so he's going to get nothing (none of the side pots either). But the pot was so big and so many people were all in and it was only about half his stack, he decided to take a chance on wiping out the lot of us. Had it just been one caller, he would have folded (or so he told me).
The blinds simply saw 3-1 (and then 4-1) shots on their money and decided to take a chance.
Button was steaming a bit in my direction because I'd doubled through him earlier when I open raised on the button (blinds 200-400) to 1000 with pocket 6's and he smooth called me with KK, and I spiked on the flop and pushed all in and got called, doing damage to his stack.
Thanks for the info, I actually just picked up another $5 because I had a side bet with someone on who the favorite was (he thought it was AsKs).
David
I get 20% of that fiver, right?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well its $5 canadian, so I think about zero american is equal. Don't spend it all in one place!
I find it hard to believe that AQs will win that hand almost as often as AKs. I would think that the AQs hand would win only slightly more often than the KJs, since both hands are more or less hoping for a specific rank of card.
Does the board come with a queen and jack or 3 diamonds 7% of the time?
Maybe it does, but I don't feel like doing the math right now.
Well, with 1 A and 1 K dead, the AK has 4 outs, plus the relatively rare flushes and straights. The AQ has 3 outs, plus it's rare flushes and straights. Don't forget that it's only a 250,000 hand simulation, so the numbers are going to be off a little. The software I use for this was free but it's also a bit slow, and I didn't want to wait for 10 minutes to run 1M hands.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, given five hands there are only 850,668 boards. Here's the exact percentages (that is, expected return as percentage of pot): KJd 12.53 AQd 19.32 8c8h 18.41 TsTh 26.55 AKs 23.20
If anyone wants the software, e-mail me.
testing
Dave, Thanks for posting this great hand.
Greg,
I like your analysis however you didn't copy on the openers finall call with pocket 8s? I think I'd have layed this down in an eye blink, maybe I'm missing something?
thanks,
Darren.
He's getting 4:1 on the call if he wins it all, and he's about getting his money back on the call if he beats our hero but loses the other pots. I would make this call just about like he did, i.e., reluctantly. I don't want to piss away so many chips, but I'm definitely getting sufficient pot odds to make the call, AND I will still have a playable stack if I lose.
Heck, I've lost pots like this and still won the tourney. However, I don't recall ever winning a pot like this late in the event and NOT coming in at least second place.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
At the time I thought it was an ok call but Im starting to change my mind. He told me afterwards that he put me on an overpair to him certainly, which means that he's a massive underdog to win any portion of the pot (since he and I are the only ones live for all pots). However, given all the overcalls, it may be fair for him to make that old "all the high cards are out" assumption with some degree of reasonableness. There is about 13.5K in the pot when he has to put in almost 4.5K more. Given his stack size, I don't think he needs to gamble this much here (there are enough sheriffs on the street already!).
I think in the end the happiest person was the dealer, who could simply forget about who was eligible for which side pot and just push me the whole thing.
I’m fairly new to tournament poker. I’ve been playing a lot of low limit cash games for much of my short poker career, but I’m looking to become a strong tournament player…seeing that I just moved to Las Vegas. I did most of my poker playing in Albuquerque, NM (Sandia Casino), and played in many of the small Limit Hold Em tourneys. In the course of playing, I met someone who gave me an absolutely great tip on how to play Limit Hold Em tourneys. He says to play tight-aggressive, and do not play drawing hands. Since incorporating this strategy, I’ve been the final table every time since then (about 7 times) and got into the money 4 of those times. Mind you, these results are in Albuquerque where the competition isn’t as strong and the buy ins are only $35-$50…and haven’t played a tourney in Vegas yet. My question is, how strong a strategy is not playing drawing hands in both low and high buy in Limit Hold Em. I imagine it’s different for No Limit as well. Any answers would be appreciated.
It depends.
Generally I tend to agree with you friends school of thought. I do NOT like to play a lot of drawing hands in tournaments. There are of course exceptions. If you have a LOT of chips relative to the blinds (ie 10-20 blinds 5K stack) I am going to play drawing hands more often.
Still, when I play drawing hands it is generally only early in events when i can't get hurt to badly when I miss.
NL is a whole different beast. Drawing hand is more a matter of opinion. If I can make an aggressive play with a drawing hand I am really doing it hoping an opponent will fold, if they dont I still have outs.
I do think too many beginners play too many drawing hands in tournements, it is quickly detriental to the BR.
Hello again.
Another (at least to me) interesting hand from the tournament I played last week. It certainly did give me some hands to think about.
After beeing in trouble but doubleing up twice I'm now the new chipleader. I have about T600. Second chipleader has about T400. We're 10 handed and the blinds are 8-16.
I'm in the SB with Qd 9d. UTG and second UTG folds. Early player raises a small amount, T20. I belive he has a decent but not great hand. 5 players call including the second chipleader, cutoff and the button.
I give it some thought. Awful position but good pot odds, if I flop great I might be able to take a nice big chunk out of someones stack. I call, BB folds.
Flop: Jh Ts 8c
I can hardly believe it. I'm just amazed at the flop, the pokergods must have decided that today was the day that I'd deserved some of that lucky stuff.
What now?
I decide that it's likely that the preflop raiser will bet so I check. Sure enough, he makes another small bet, T40 this time. Second chipleader and another player folds. The rest had called when the action got back to me. Noone looked really extatic about their hands.
What now?
I decide that it's time to raise. I pop it T200, a measly teasing half-pot raise in my eyes. Sure, it's big enough to put most of the stacks all in, but the pot is juice so I hope that I'll get someone to call. Everyone folded to the cut-off who called all-in for his last T100 or so.
I flip over my Qd 9d and he flips over Ks 7s. Calling with an ignorant end gutshot. Go figure... Needless to say he wasn't the most experienced player in the game. He gets no help and I rack a nice pot.
All comments are appreciated...
Sincerly, Andreas
Well first of all:
With a hand like Qd9d I prefer being in early position for NL. You generally know exactly what you want to do with this hand after you see the flop (generally all in or chuck). Being in early position allows you to checkraise a big amount.
With that many callers, I think its an easy call, given your stack size as well.
I might just call on the flop here given that the board is not too dangerous for you, but preflop raiser is not going to be betting again without a real hand. Probably its good to simply take the pot down right away and if anyone wants to chase you, more power to them.
Nothing out of the ordinary here.
My reasoning for the decent raise on the flop was that I didn't want anyone to split the pot with me or manage to find a draw on the turn to suck out on me on the river.
I'm kind of clueless to NL. That's why I posted this hand, it's a call I would never (never say never...) do in limit HE. But I the staggering implied odds in this hand screamed even at me that it was worth a call.
I'm curious how low in starting hands you would go in this spot. My gut instinct is somewhere in the lines of JTo/97s/76s.
Sincerly, Andreas
I agree with the way you played the hand. I think I would have check raise jammed the flop. In reality it did not matter as you covered almost everyone with your bet--I just felt the pot was big enough to just take here.
I disagree with David regarding calling the flop. If an Ace, King, or Queen comes off you hand may be counterfitted--ie if a Q comes A-K will have the nuts etc . . . Also if a blank comes A-K is unlikely to bet again anyway. In addition if someone has an overpair you may get called here. OTH if the board pairs on the turn you may 1) be afraid of a boat, or 2) no longer get called when you bet because other player fear trips.
In short I think you played the nad very well--
On to your second question: I think Q-9 was an easy call here. Not just because there are 5 people in the pot, but because you have 600 in chips and are only calling 12 of your stack. In this case (5 way, calling 2% of my stack) I will call with A LOT of hands. Pretty much any 1 gapper, many 2 gappers (ie 8-5s) any 2 picture cards, and connectors (including 2-3) etc. . .
OTH 5 way action may not be enough for me to call with 6-7 if I have to call 15% of my stack.
Hey I did say "I MIGHT call the flop" but that I would probably try to take it right there.
However, in a NL elimination tournament, I generally think its an ok idea to take a chance (as in this situation) to bust someone out, especially when it won't bust YOU out to lose. I also consider the fact that so many people limped in makes it unlikely that the deck remains rich with face cards that will beat (or tie) me. It may happen, sure. But if I can induce one (or more) players to commit significant portions of their stacks on the turn, hey, I DO have the nuts after all.
In this situation there's a fair chance you are going to get called by anyone who has a real draw to beat you on the flop even with your all in bet (and I think the only two are sets and two pairs and KQ), so I like the idea of calling and hoping to get an overcall here or there and then pushing everyone else out on the turn. Chancey, yes, but thats the nature of tournaments.
However, I agree there is a lot to be said for taking the pot right away.
Geez, I know you said "might" :)
Of course there is no sure thing play. I just thought the pot as described was big enough, and the risk reward was not there. I think thepot is about 40% of our hero's stack size. The reward is not big enough for me in this situation thats all. In some cases, I may certainly just call and take the risk.
As a side note, Interestingly, although I also would have checked the flop the danger here is that with 5 players people are less likely to bluff. Thus small pairs will just check behind you. If it is checked around and an Ace comes on the turn you really have a problem if someone bets.
Well I just got back from Vegas yesterday with my family.
Day 1 - July 6
Things started off bad. We arrived just before thunderstorms hit Vegas. We sat in the airport for over an hour waiting for them to take the luggage off the plane. Once the luggage showed up the handle was broken off. Off to make a claim.
Went to the poker room late in the evening. Wow what a huge area for poker. There are over 100 tables in 2 huge rooms. Decided to play a $35 limit satelite tourney. I couldn't lose a hand and I seemed to hit every flop and I won it. These satelites pay 1st in vouchers and 2nd place in cash. Unfortunately this seemed to be the highlight of my poker for the week.
Day 2 - July 7
I take my seat for the opening event. There are over 1000 players for this limit HE tourney. After hitting everything in the previous night, it is not surprising that I can't hit a thing. My only quality hand is JJ. I raise and get re-raised by the lady in the SB. She bets a low flop. I two bet her and when she raises I muck and of course she shows AA. My last hand is AK and I lose to KJ. I win no hands. Very nice.
I play a NL satelite and I lose to A6o vs my AKo when he calls my all-in re-raise.
I buy into the evening NL event. I get down to 6 tables when my stack is still reasonable. I lose a big pot when I re-raised a short stacked all-in raiser with 66 when he hit one of his overcards on the turn. Several hands later I go all-in with ATs and get called by JJ. I probably should have waited a few hands but I was about to hit the blinds and we had started anteing.
Day 3-4 July 8-9
Mostly did family stuff.
Day 5 July 10
Played the evening NL tourney. It was one of those tournies where I couldn't get any decent starting hands. A couple big aces and a few small pairs won the blinds for me. My big blind hand of T4o looked to win a nice pot when the flop was TT9. SB, button and I checked it around. Turn was a 3rd club. SB bet and we all called. River was nothing. SB checked. I went all-in. Button folded. SB thought about it for a long time and finally called with T3s. Darn, split pot. Eventually I was down to 600 and the blinds were 75-150. I was in the BB and it was folded to the SB. She went all-in and I called all-in with 77. She showed AT and of course hit the kicker.
Day 6 - July 11
Played in the $230 NL day tourney. This was the one I was looking forward too all week. Started with T600. My opening table had Steve Kaufman who was 3rd in 2000 at the big one.
Things started off poorly when I had QQ in the 4th hand of the tourney. I raised to 70 and was re-raised another 125. I called to see an ace high flop. I checked, he bet and I am down 200 quickly. I limp with QTs. Only the BB calls. Two of my suit flop. I bet 60 and get check-raised for another 150. I decide not to push it all-in on my draw. I end the 1st level at T340.
I pickup 99 twice in the 2nd level. I pick up the blinds the 1st time and the 2nd time I get the BB calling. I go all-in when the flop shows KJx. BB mucks. I get 77 in the SB. Kaufman limped in middle position. I call and we see the flop of AJ7 3 handed. I check, the BB checks. Kaufman bets 80. I call. BB goes all-in. Kaufman folds and I quickly call. I win a nice pot against A9o. I end the 2nd level at T960.
Not much action in the 3rd level. I win once with AKo when I hit my King. I end the 3rd level at T985 and I take my rebuy for another T600.
I may have missed an opportunity in the 4th level. With the blinds at 20-40 I pickup 66 in middle position. With no callers I fold. One guy mini-raises to 80. Only the BB calls. Flop is J76. Raiser bets 80 and is re-raised by 300. Raiser calls. Turn is a 5 and the BB bets 700. Raiser folds. I have a feeling the BB had 77 but there was a straight draw and a flush draw so who knows. I may have doubled up or busted out on that hand. I end the level at T1545.
I pickup my biggest pot of the tourney late in the next level. Blinds are 30-60. UTG raises to 150. Guy to my right re-raises to 300. I look down and see QQ. I decide to go all-in. Only UTG calls. Board shows no big cards and I win a nice pot. UTG supposedly flashes AK as he busts out. Kaufman who was in the BB said that if I didn't re-raise he would have called with J8s and won the pot. I end the level at T3125.
I get moved to another table with a few other well known players. I get QQ again and re-raise Susie Issacs UTG raise. She folds. I am now the chip leader by 400 or so at our table. I am feeling good when the downfall is about to happen. Blinds are 50-100. Player to my right raises to 500. I look down and see AKo. My 1st instinct was too fold. I decided to raise to 1200. He calls. Flop is 3 low cards. He checks and I go all-in. He thinks and thinks for what seems like minutes. He finally calls. Turn and river don't help me and he shows QQ for the win. In retrospect my flop bet should have been 1900 or all-in. I didn't give him any reason to fold to my raise. I am now down to 400. A few hands later I pickup JJ UTG. I go all-in. I am called by the button who shows AA. I bust out.
Oh well a few mistakes. One critical and a few minor. It was a fun week. It was neat to be in a tourney with over 1000 players. I really enjoyed the play you had in these NL tournies. Blinds move up slowly and the daily rounds are 30 minutes. Evening rounds are 20 minutes. The satelites were fun but I didn't like the fact that you received vouchers for specific amounts ( 125 or 230 or 330 or 550). I would have rather had cash, something that seemed easier to sell or something that could be used for rebuys.
Ken Poklitar
Ken,
I hope you have better luck next time. Anyway, what do you think of the Orleans? I think it is a good value for the price. Lots of places to eat, rooms are better than a lot of strip hotels, and I love the waitresses outfits.
Good Luck
Mark
I like the Orleans. The food seemed reasonable. The buffet was nothing great but was fine for me. The room was quite nice. Being off-strip is kinda annoying but they have shuttles quite often.
They run pretty solid tournaments. I noticed that when I was in Vegas last year and played some of their weekend tournies. It was true for the bigger ones as well. Some of the dealers are a bit shakey but in general they did a fine job. It would be nice if they make the poker room non-smoking.
I didn't play much of the side games since I brought my family but the games looked pretty good.
Ken Poklitar
the PL Omaha games were exceptional. With 5,10 blinds, a very good player could probably average at least $100/hour in these games. A lot of variance, but huge earns, given the excessive gambling going on.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In my OO trip report I mentioned that I received QQ 3 times in the Wednesday NL tourney.
Hand 1) I raise, get re-raised, call and fold to the flop bet with an Ace on board.
Hand 2) Blinds are 30-60. Early raiser to 150. Guy next to me re-raises to 300. I go all-in.
Hand 3) Blinds are 50-100. Early raiser to 300. I re-raise to 1000. Early raiser mucks.
Okay so in all 3 cases I played QQ fairly aggressively pre-flop.
Several hands before I bustout, blinds are 30-60. UTG raises to 150. The next guy with QQ calls. Two other players call. SB goes all-in and everyone folds.
Now I have no problem with QQ folding when the blinds go all-in facing a raiser and a bunch of limpers. But why would he not raise with QQ? He had one of the bigger stacks at the table? It seems to me he is asking other players to call which is what happened. Is it because he figures if the flop shows an A or K he folds with minimal loss and if the flop is low he can win a nice pot?
Ken Poklitar
Your analysis seems correct to me (he wants to see if no ace or king comes). Still I think not raising with QQ here is a big mistake. If somone flops a set on you you may get broke. There are 3 hands I never want a flop with: AK, QQ, and JJ. In a lot of ways JJ is easier to play than QQ, because even when it is an overpair it is much easier to dump to substantial action.
Ken,
Amazingly, I posted a scenario very similar to the ones that you have posted here. It's above titled "strong pre-flop NL fold?" In my scenario, I call a sizeable raise with QQ at a six handed table in the cutoff. The big blind goes over the top, the original bettor calls, and I fold. The answer is no, I really think that it is a really bad idea to cold call with QQ most of the time. But if I played the same cards the same way every time, then I'd never make a cent. I call here because I'm against an aggressive opponent who will pay me off with a bluff bet on the flop or turn. Frankly, I'm not all that worried about him flopping trips. It's a two outer. The risk is well worth it because of the implied odds against this type of opponent. I can call a good-sized raise and know that there is much more coming my way. Plus, I can dump if an A comes. I think that the play is most equitable, though, when you are in late position and the raise is big enough so that the blinds could not play without premium cards. But like I said, this should only be done a portion of the time.
I encourage you to take a look at my post.
-Jason
In my OO Trip report I discuss a critical hand that took me out. A few questions:
Question 1) Pre-flop, 2nd biggest stack (T3200) early position raises to 500. I am biggest stack (T3600) with AKo next to raiser:
a) Fold, no reason to get into a battle with a 50/50 hand.
b) Raise all-in. Put the man to all his chips.
c) Raise to 1900. Raising 1400 is a significant statement. Does he call with QQ?
d) Raise to 1200. Giving him correct odds to call with almost anything. A reasonable raise with big pairs.
Question 2) Flop. Opponent checks the low flop (972). With AKo:
a) Check. Which will almost surely cause opponent to go all-in on turn unless A or K hit.
b) All-in. Unless he has a set or big 3 pairs it will be tough for him to call.
c) Bet 1/2 of remaining stack. About 1200.
Question 3) Flop. You are my opponent and have QQ in this situation. Do you call my all-in bet?
Thanks for any answers and or comments. I picked 1A which I am sure was incorrect. I picked 2B which I am not so sure was wrong. If I was him I would have called quicker then he did. He took a long time to decide to call.
Ken Poklitar
After the hand was over he said 3 things that I did find interesting.
When the Jack hit the river he was worried that I had JJ.
He also implied that he was worried since I hadn't played a hand in 1/2 hour since I arrived. This was wrong since I had raised to steal the BB earlier, re-raised an UTG raise and limped once in 20 minutes or so.
He also thought that if he folded his stack would be too small although it still would have been about 2k.
Ken Poklitar
I am a little confused you say you picked 1A, but that would mean you folded whihc clearly you did not.
In any event some of decision is based on position which is not noted. If the raiser is 1 off the button I will probably make a big raise maybe to 2000. If he is in middle position I may just call. I actually think calling is fine here.
Whether you call or raise I think you should check behind him on the flop. You missed. You dont want toget involved with another big stack after having missed this flop. Personally I would take a LONG time checking. There is a chance that this hand gets checked down. He maybe afraid of going broke to an overpair. Like you, he has no urge to get involved with a big stack--he had no choice.
As to whther he should call your all in on the flop--It is not as easy as you may think to do, but Yes I think a call is justifed here. Of course I would look for some sort of tell first.
Sorry I picked 1D.
I thought I mentioned he was an early position raiser.
Ken Poklitar
I would probably go all-in or fold here. I don't like just calling, because 2/3 of the time you miss, and I don't expect to get paid off when I hit if the opponent is any good. The main reason to just call is because he will check-and-fold if the flop is poor for his hand, AND you will know this and be able to take advantage of it. If he is prone to trapping when he acts first, then just calling here preflop is probably wrong.
A pot-sized raise preflop would be about half your stack, and leave you guessing postflop, so that is why I would just go all-in now if I raised at all.
I would fold against an opponent who was tough to play here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Here's a situation that came up last night in my home game. We play NL tourneys with a 20 buy-in and unlimited 10 dollar rebuys through the fourth round. We start with T100, and the blinds at T1-2.
After the rebuy period, I'm tied for 2nd with about T500 and change with the blinds at T10- 20. I'm in the cutoff at a six handed table and find QQ in my hand. UTG raises to T60, and I decide to cold call. Here's my reasoning: about 80% of the time, I'll go over the top, but I wanted to be conservative and also have the opportunity to trap my opponent if the flop it to my liking. I know the raiser very well, and he will very often overbet the flop with very little or nothing. He is also the chipleader, and I don't want to tangle with him unless I'm sure of where I stand. Do I do this every time I'm in this same position? Of course not... but I like to switch things up sometimes.
Anyway, I call. All fold to the big blind who raises another T200. He has exactly the same amount of chips as I do. I also know this player very well, and while he can be unpredictable, he's not going to go over the top of two opponents with half of his stack unless he has a hand. Original raiser calls. I remember that the strong player in the blind has had big slick snapped three times that night, so he's a little bit gunshy with it. He would never do that with AQ or less. So I figure that the worst that he can have is JJ. The other guy could very well have AK.
I think for about a minute and then muck. I folded here because I didn't like my chances with QQ against two opponents who have both put in big raises with five cards to come. I've gotta be a dog here. As it turns out, the original raiser has TT, and the re-raiser has AA. When the hand was over, I showed my fold and everyone was impressed. Should they have been?
Just a side question: do I fold, call or push all-in with KK?
Thanks for your input.
-Jason
Jason,
You have several problems when you don't reraise, the first is you will be guessing what the reraiser is raising with if he thinks, like you, that UTG is weak. You could be throwing away the best hand.
The part I was not impressed about is you showing your hand. Now, if there are any decent players they will reraise you to force you out of a pot. Think about it. I see players do this stuff all the time and they get run over. Don't try to impress players at the table with laydowns. Furthermore, this gives the better players an idea of how well you read them at the table, and they will take measures against you.
When a good player sees someone make a laydown with a big hand, they take advantage of that information.
first..ditto on the showing of your hand.
Impressed? Only if I should be when some makes the right play.
In a ring game I would play KK just like AA....in this spot, I would play KK just like you did QQ. Jim
i'm not sure that i agree about not flat calling EVER with a hand as complicated as QQ. in a shorthanded game of NL, i feel that it can be extremely profitable if you know your competition. frankly, with this hand, i'm not really all that happy with just taking the blinds. i want a little action. but (i'll stress this again) only against players who i know very well. and even then, i probably make this move only about 10-20% of the time.
as far as your advice concerning flashing my hands... i totally agree: this is bad poker, and is undoubtedly costing me. in the home games it is tempting to show our hands... i'll tell ya what, though... my trash raises got much more respect then they deserved after showing what i was capable of mucking!
thanks again for your help.
-jason
Jason,
I posted a similar situation on July 3 in which I mucked QQ preflop in a NL tourney. Although our situations were not exactly identical, I think we had the same idea. Basically, folding QQ in these situations is not that bad a move. I think you played it just fine, but pushing your whole stack would probably not be the absolute worse decision you could make either. I agree with some of the other posters that you shouldn't flat call with QQ and you definitely shouldn't show everyone your hand afterwards.
In regards to KK, I think I would have a much harder time mucking. I'd probably play them every time and hope I don't run into AA.
The way you played QQ is fine, given your read of the players. In most spots, it is a reraising hand, of course.
With KK I would play, and lose, in this spot, unless I knew those opponents so well that one of them had to have AA over half the time.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I like re-raising with QQ to make it headsup or take the pot down.
If you feel he will only re-raise with AA, KK or AK then folding makes sense.
With KK I would re-raise. I have yet to have the situation where I have laid down KK pre-flop although there have been a few I wish I had :)
Ken Poklitar
How many Paradise tournaments must I play to get a statistically confident idea of whether it's profitable?
Last 50 $100 + $9 ten-player tournaments:
12 first 5 second 3 third 30 out-of-the-money
+$53 average profit.
Down to final 5 (out of starting 10) in Limit HE tourney (top 2 pay out). I am the chip trailer (probably playing too tight up until now - game was generally very loose/semi-aggressive ). Chip leader is on the button. We are at T15-30 blinds playing T30-60. I am in the BB with just under T270 (not counting the BB already blinded).
I get AA. All four limp, I raise, all call.
Flop Q-6-8 rainbow. SB checks, I bet, all call.
Turn 9 (no flush). SB comments that I'm going to raise anyway so he bets (?!?!?!?). I raise, next two fold, button reraises. SB folds, and I call with what I have left (less than the T60 that is owed the pot).
River can't help (K, I think) and doesn't, as the button turns over 7-5o for the straight, and I'm out.
I'm guessing this is just one of those things that happens, especially in a loose tournament such as this. I'm not very experienced with tourney play (against good players or anyone), but I figured that having less than 1BB with the SB coming to me next made my call automatic, whether or not I was drawing dead.
Any help would be appreciated. I should get a chance back at these guys in a month...
Your final call is correct. The pot is simply too damn big to fold here, unless you know the button player well enough that there is basically no chance that he has less than a made straight to 3-bet. If he might 3-bet with trips, two-pair, a draw, or a total bluff, even a small portion of the time, then you must call, given the size of the pot and the shortness of your remaining stack.
Now, as to whether you should have raised the turn, that I don't know. It depends too much upon the opponents, and what you should have guessed about the SB's comment and subsequent bet.
Your raise preflop is fine, make them pay while you're ahead. Your bet on the flop is also almost certainly correct. The flop is pretty ragged but offers draws, so the only reason to check is if you sense that the button wants to bet, in which case you can check-raise and hopefully drop the rest of the field. If the button has AQ, this play is perfect.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I don't think your play was THAT terrible considering the tournament aspect of it.
I don't know this player, but the "it depends" comment fits here. His intentional *weak-looking* bet is a classic tell....Projected weakness means STRENGTH. i certainly wouldn't have raised him after his comment and may have folded DEPENDING on the circumstances...
Go get 'em next month...
Jeff Cooper St. Louis, MO
Actually, the "weak-looking" bet was from the SB, who was actually weak. I'm guessing he looked at my stack and wanted to get me all-in or pretty close. It was the button that did the re-raise and beat me (SB weak bet folded on the re-raise).
It's the 3rd round of a NL tourney. Blinds are 50-100. I'm in the BB with about 400 after posting my BB. UTG goes all-in for 180. He's a fairly solid player, who occasionally gambles, but I pretty much respect his play. Everyone folds including the SB. I look down and see 29o. There's already 330 in the pot and I need to put in another 80 to see the flop. Because I respected this player, I decided to muck. He turns over 68s. Regardless of what he was holding, I think my play here is to call with any two cards. Is this correct? Also, I still have an option to rebuy and add-on after the round.
Thanks in advance for your comments.
You are right. It is an automatic call without even looking at your cards. Against the range of hands he might be holding to make this play in his situation, you are nowhere near a 4:1 dog. Sure, if he has an overpair, you're a worse dog than that, but against anything else you're 3:1 dog or better.
And, as it turned out, he was (foolishly, unless he knew you might fold) capable of making the play with a hand you were actually ahead of.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I understand the odds factor, but since Jace will be on the button next, why risk the play with junk. I could see any gappers or royalty, but 9,2o is pretty crappy. Isn't that a pretty balzy play to come in with 180 UTG with. Is UTG that sure no one will call him?
I have to disagree with an automatic call here. Sometimes just because the odds dictate a call doesn't always mean a call is warranted.
The previous hands a player may have played or other factors might indicate a clear fold.
But the real problem I have here is the holdings. 9,2o just sucks! Why even get invloved in this hand? What if you flop 2 pair only to be drawn out on or actually be behind right then? Then you lose more than the $80 and have to rebuy at once.
Sometimes discretion IS the better part of valor and poker!
Keep playing hard!
You missed a couple of critical facts.
UTG is 180 all-in. With the blinds 50-100, the UTG is making a judgment call that this is his last shot to pick up the blinds to survive. UTG has no leverage when he's the BB and can only throw 80 more at the pot. If UTG does not get a good hand on the BB, he's left with 80 chips total, and 50 of those committed to the small blind for, at a minimum, heads up against a BB or a decent hand hoping to isolate him. If I'm UTG, there are a lot of marginal hands I would play in that scenario. I have a decent shot at picking up the blinds uncontested (as happened here); if I get called, well, it's a chance to double up or go home, and I'm about to be blinded out anyway.
The poster is the BB, and is the last to act: the only question is whether to throw 80 more at the pot for a chance to win 330.
92o against a hand in the top 80% of hands for a 4.1-1 payoff with no other risk? I like those odds and will play them all tournament long if doing so in a particular situation will not cripple me. You can play a lot of hands if you know you're isolated against a short stack that can't damage you too much.
Let's change the scenario slightly. Pretend the table is ten-handed, antes are 5, blinds are 100-200, BB is 180 all in, you're the small blind, and it's folded to you, with 330 already in the pot. Do you commit 80 chips to call with 92o, or do you fold to the BB?
automatic with that hand...please, you must be joking!
not only does that hand stink, but he said the other guy was a player, not a nut. So if he bluffs you out OK...you'r better off out. Jim ...P.S. generally what Greg has to say is well worth listening to, but seems he was out to lunch this time.
jellow wrote: "P.S. generally what Greg has to say is well worth listening to, but seems he was out to lunch this time."
Well, I guess I don't know whether to say thank you or f*** you. I hate having to guess. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
please don't say " f*** you".
I just looked at the flop--WOW, you made top pair!
flop was: 9 7 5 .. .. .. Jim
It is early in the tourney, so there is no interest in survival here. The only monetarily correct goal is accumulating chips. Not only that, but even if this play were just BARELY above break-even, it's still the rebuy period, so there isn't even an issue about our hero being shorter-stacked than he might have been for the hands coming up. You should make EXACTLY the same decision here that you would make in a cash game.
Since our hero is getting more than sufficient pot odds to call this all-in bet, so he should do it. That's all.
If anyone wants to dispute that he's getting pot odds, then they better post their math, or I'll just laugh at them. The only way he isn't getting pot odds is if we can be HIGHLY sure that the raiser has a very tight selection of hands that dominate 92o completely, i.e., pocket pairs 99 and up. If we add in a bunch of AK, AQ, etc. hands, then 92o has sufficient pot odds. In other words, if you can prove to me that our hero doesn't have pot odds, I'm going to dispute the accuracy of the hand set you've selected for our raiser. Plus, given what he actually showed down (86), clearly we shouldn't be too sure of anything about him.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Yes, this is an automatic call even given the description of the player. So he's solid, this really doesn't mean he will only move in with pairs 99 or better, right? Because, those are the only hands he could have that makes calling a mistake. If he has AK, 77 or whatever you have a call (BTW, if you don't believe he has a pair, you should call with 23o). You call because this is an automatic +EV play (unless he has a pair 99 or better). Even more since you can still rebuy or add-on.
You call, because since he is all-in, so your bad position does not work against you here. You call, because most opponents will not get it and you will look like a bozo, which should able you to value bet more in the future. You call, because you make money on it.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
This is a total no brainer call. You really have to KNOW the guy has 99 or a pair higher, and NOT just overcards. When, if fact, he isvery likely to have 2 picture cards in his hand to make this move, and the combination of cards 10 - A that dont pair sufficiently outnumber the ones that do pair. Thus, sometimes you will be a big dog, and sometimes a small dog, never a favorite (except here where you were), but that doesn not matter--even when you are a big dog (except for 99) you are not even that far from getting the right price, and when you are a small dog you are getting a great price.
This is where you just call, and dont show your cards unless you are collecting the pot.
AS to whether I would call in the SB, probably not.
.. I would think that REGARDLESS of whether you actually win the hand or not, turn the hand over. Methinks you might not get your blind played at that often after people see that gem 92o.
M.
this is a good post as it shows that many people dont understand some of the fundamentals of the game. its basic odds not hands here. the odds say call with any two cards even with garbage hands. there are no 4 to one dog hands to even a tight opener. and in this case a player short staked must play with weak hands.
I agree that calling makes sense.
I don't think by folding players don't understand fundamentals of the game. In a ring game it clearly makes sense. The fact that this is a tournament is where it makes things cloudier for most players. One can not always play the odds in tournaments since you can not just buy more chips at anytime.
In a rebuy situation this is a no-brainer.
Ken Poklitar
Just not automatically! No hand in tournament poker is that black and white. It's about survival, not always about odds. Most times, against most players, I WOULD call, Greg know me and plays with me, he knows that sometimes I would. But I still disagree that it IS always right! Guys who play by odds only in tournaments are usuually getting the best of it in the hands they play, but I'll get further than they will year after year, because I factor in everything else, the player, the table, the chip counts, etc. and I play to win the tourney, not just that one hand!
Keep playing hard!
Glen, generically speaking, you're right. It's never black-and-white, and you can't play every hand the same way every time, etc.
However, what facts would you ADD to the original post here that would ever make folding correct? I don't mean that you can change the facts, but you can add anything you want that isn't mentioned and is at least slightly within the realm of possibility.
I can't think of ANYTHING I would add that would ever make folding correct. Reall, not anything at all.
There might be situations where someone would raise all-in to 180, and as the only remaining competitor I would fold my 100 big blind, but those situations are so rare that I may never find myself in them. However, once we add in that it's still early in the tourney, during the rebuy period, I would never fold. The only likely time I would fold would be on the bubble of a super-satellite.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Ok, I studied the situation carefully and one thing stands out that made me choose my first instinct... the original poster said "the raiser was a solid player who occasionally gambles but that I respect."
There are certain people that I read very well, and may even respect for their abilities. Several of these players would make that play with a range of hands that I simply wouldn't call with my 9,2o regardless of odds.
Very recently, I went all in at the final table of a no-limit tourney with the nut flush draw and overcards because I was getting incredible odds, far more than were required. It was a mistake because we were at the final table and I could not rebuy and the hand would lose far too often. Upon further review, I would have called the same hand during the rebuy period and it would have been a "must" call. But I still can find reasons to abandon the hand simply to put those chips to better use when the situation is more favorable that I WILL win.
I don't like situations where I have less than a 50% chance of winning but am getting enough odds to warrant the play. I'd rather wait in many of these, especially against certain "respectable" players, and put my chips to work where I'm more likely to be an odds-on favorite.
Would you always call with say a one-outer, even if you were getting the right odds? My rebuy money is more valuable to me than it is to some. The less I spend during the year equalls more profit for me in the end.
I know all the reasons that a call is "correct". I just don't see that it is always a "Must"!
One final thought...occasionally we read about incredible laydown of say KK preflop (like last years TOC). I think if you did the math you'd probably be able to find mathematical reasons not to lay it down... but if you know you'll probably lose... muck it and wait for a better situation...even during the rebuy period.
Keep playing hard!
Thanks in advance
It generally means no rebuys or addons, i.e., you pay the original entry fee, get the original chips, and play without anyone ever paying more or getting more.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It means that when you out of chips you out of the tournament. thats freezout
I thought freezeout meant that instead of tables being broken in a tournament each table played until one person at that table had all the chips at which time the winners of these initial tables were put together to continue, and so on and so forth. Puts a premium on short handed play... or am I totally wrong here ?
I have seen it used that way at least once, but more commonly that format is referred to as a shootout. The weird thing about the term freezeout is that most tourneys are played that way (i.e., no rebuys), yet the vast majority of these no rebuy freezeouts never use the term freezeout at all. Then, when somebody does use the term, it confuses people because they think that something different is going to occur than the normal no rebuy tourney they're used to.
Personally, being a lawyer, I like things to be referred to consistently, so I wish that the term freezeout would just go away. "No rebuys" is much more descriptive.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Congratulations to Andy Ward, one of our regular posters, for placing 5th in the 7 Card-Stud Hi/Lo Tournament, and Donna Harris, the 2+2 co-author, for placing third in the Ladie's Hold'em Tournament. I like to see our posters and authors win.
Good Luck
Mark
Congrats to both of them.
I was hoping to meet Andy but I think I missed him by a few days.
Ken Poklitar
Thanks guys,
As John Fox says in his most excellent book (this book has paid for itself 20 times over in the first week !), there is no glory like unearned glory :-). I was so lucky in that Stud 8 tournament you wouldn't believe it.
Once I am back among the living (not jet-lagged) I will post some stuff. In the meantime, you were right about the cocktail waitresses. Arghghlgglghlghlgh ....
Andy.
I thought I noticed another money finish in the NL tourney for you.
And sometimes it is better to be lucky then good! Although both is even better :)
Ken Poklitar
We are 3 handed at a local omaha hi/low tourney. Blinds are 2k-4k. I have 12k in BB. Button has 8.5k. SB has 24K.
I am dealt Q984 (no sooted). Button calls. SB completes his bet. We see the flop 3 handed.
Flop is QdJs9s.
I have 2 pair. Not a bad flop 3 handed, I think. SB checks. I bet 4k. Button goes in with 4.5k. SB and I call.
Turn is 3s.
SB checks. I bet hoping that although button may have me beat I will try to double up my last 3.5k. SB calls.
River is 8d.
SB shows a KTxx for a flopped straight. Button shows AsKsxx for a turned flush. I bust out 3rd.
I have not played much O/8 tournaments. Anything obvious I did wrong in the hand?
Ken Poklitar
Anything obvious I did wrong in the hand?
Ken - I think so. You have to put SB on K-T-X-X when he/she goes all in on the flop. You have to put Button on the spade draw and/or a set when he/she calls.
Button makes very deceptive play by checking the turn, but what do you gain by going "all in" at this point. You must recognize that SB has the nut straight. Unless you catch a queen or a nine (4 outs) on the river, you're losing the main pot to SB. If Button has nothing, he/she folds to your bet. You have nothing to gain by betting the turn! It's called a nullo play, a play that can gain you nothing and lose you everything.
Just my opinion. You asked.
However, congratulations! You still ended up in second place.
Buzz
SB did not go in on the flop. Button went all-in on the flop.
3 handed I am not sure I can put the players on made hands already. I did put the button on either a flush draw or a straight. I feel that the SB would call my bet with any pair since he could bust me.
Ken Poklitar
Ken - Just reverse "SB" and "Button" in my original response.
"I feel that the SB would call my bet with any pair since he could bust me."
Let's try to look at things from SB's point of view. SB does not have to call your bet and Button's raise on the flop. SB should put Button on the nut straight from his/her "all-in" bet. Your own bet on the flop also basically represents the nut straight. From SB's point of view, between the two of you, surely at least one of you has the nut straight.
If so, why would SB call the bet + raise after the flop? If you were in SB's shoes, would you call a bet and an "all in" raise on this flop with only one pair?
Then, if you were still in SB's shoes, what would you make of the second player going "all in" when the board made a flush possible, in addition to the straight? Holding only one pair, what would you make of the second player going "all in" on the turn? Wouldn't you be afraid of the second player having a flush and/or straight on the turn?
Holding one pair, SB would have to put you on a bluff to call any bet made by you on the turn.
I agree it's more difficult to put people on hands when it gets down to three handed. Even so, SB would be making a major error dribbling away half his/her chips, if SB were holding only one pair.
I think SB puts you on the straight, rather than two pair or a set, and that is why SB does not bet the turn when SB makes the nut flush. From SB's point of view, perhaps you will fold your nut straight to a possible flush if SB immediately bets. If SB delays one round in betting the nut flush and if you have two pair or a set, SB is giving you a free draw, which would seem unwise. However, if you have the straight and SB checks the turn and then bets the river, you might call on the river. Or, as happened, if SB shows weakness by checking the turn, you may voluntarily go "all in" on the turn.
The way it was, your bet on the flop bought you a free draw on the turn. You should have taken it! I still think you made a nullo play on the turn.
Buzz
Ken,
I'm by no means an omaha expert either, but here's my 2 cents worth.
Even though you flopped 2 pair, this is a really dangerous board for you to think about betting into. Either of your opponents could be on a big wrap around straight draw (possible holding AKJT or something similar) and/or flush draw or be there already. If the flop came a little less dangerous like maybe Q94 offsuit or 2 suited, then I think there's some merit to moving in for your 12K and making your opponents pay for the draw. Even if a T comes to complete your straight, you're probably dead anyway.
If I were playing in your position, this would be a check and fold situation for me and let the SB play sheriff. 2 pair in omaha, especially with no backup for low, is just too vulnerable.
Best wishes, Mike
Recent pot limit tourney hand in the rebuy period. I have 10h10d on the button. UTG raises the pot (T75) I call the blinds fold. UTG has the roughly the same number of chips as and is a tricky player who is very aggressive pre flop.
Flop falls Js5s5d. UTG bets the pot although I suspect a bluff I fold UTG flashes 6h5h. I am relieved that I was not holding Queens or better as I am cetain I would have bet. On reflection without a straight or a flush draw is there anyway I can call or raise a pot sized bet once the board has paired ?
Any comments
The more players in the hand the more likely that someone has trips. Plus the pair on the board makes a difference. Since most players play big cards when there is a big card paired you may be against trips. The other key is the preflop action.
In your specific hand, with a Jack on the board your tens may not be good anyway. The preflop raiser could have AJ or a bigger pair. I would be surprised to see the 65 from his hand.
Now if I had QQ on that hand, I would have re-raised preflop but assuming he calls the raise I would have lost a lot of chips.
Ken Poklitar
I think your fold is good but for a different reason.
If he has A-K (or A-Q) of spades, you are in the lead right now it is in a truly deceptive way. He has 15 outs (9 to a flush + 6 to AK) which actually gives him a better hand than you.
If he has an overpair you are toast. If he has J-J you are drawing (nearly) dead. Forget the fact that he could have trips (I know he did, but that is not really the point).
In a way the small paired board helps you. If the baord came 5-6-9 he is more likely to have trips than when it comes J-6-6. I like the paired board, hat I dont like is the fact that if I am not up against an overpair I may be up against overcards with a flush draw. It would be hard to imagine that he is moving in with overcards without the flush draw.
Given that, if the flop cam J-6-6 rainbow, I may actually call if I believe him to be on A-K.
< On reflection without a straight or a flush draw is < there anyway I can call or raise a pot sized bet < once the board has paired ?
Sure, you can even call (or raise) pretty often, as long as you can be certain enough that the opposition doesn't have the third card of that rank. In this case, given that he's a tricky player, how often will he bet this flop without holding a 5? Of those times he won't have a 5, how often will he have you beat some other way? How often will he have a flush draw plus 1 or more overcards to your pair? How often will you be WAY ahead (e.g., he has pocket 4s)? Add these up, look at what you stand to win vs. lose if you play on, and make the best decision. Consider how the hand might play out if you call vs. if you raise as well. Sometimes calling is -EV, while either folding or raising give +EV. It is sometimes surprising how often the middle ground is the worst decision.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have some experience and success in playing small and medium tournaments. I want to move up to the next level and I would like advise on what books I should study. And any other pointers anyone can spare.
thanks, jim
If you are referring the NL: I liked Cloutier's tournament book. I thought it was better than the one McEvoy wrote by himself. Although Not really for Tournaments, I think Supersystem is a must read to get a grasp for the nature and pace of NL holdem.
A lot of people like Ciaffone as well, I thought it well thought out, but found some of the concepts counter intuitive to me.
Hi,
This is a situation from last night's small local NL tournament. I thought I played it okay but as usual I am wondering what alternative courses of action I should be considering.
Blinds 50-50 on the button. Rebuys are just over, I have 1400 in chips, with the average stack being about 2500 or a bit more I suppose. There is a long way to go in this tournament.
Two seats from the button, I pick up 66. Four players limp in, I limp, as does the cutoff, and button and blind both check their options. So far, so good.
Flop: Q86, two spades. I have the six of spades.
Player 2UTG bets 100 into the pot of 350, one caller, and it's up to me.
The pot is 550, it's 100 to call, and I have a set. The way these people play, there is almost no chance that someone is sitting on QQ or 88.
The question is, what plays should I be considering here?
Cheers,
Guy.
perhaps the best play would be to move in to try to prevent them from making the flush draw...you have the best hand here.
however if you want to try to both get a better payoff and seek a little safety===call the 100 and raise 300..if they call,fine..if they fold, fine..if they raise or move in, fine...assuming you get a call, then we want the turn card to be a blank (it probably will) then you move in....but if turn is a flush card, then if they do not move in, you do...if they do move in, you call because you have 10 outs to make a full and pot odds are there. This play can cause you to be eliminated, but you have an even better chance to double, or more, you chips. Jim
You should be raising, it is just a question of how much.
One thought is to Jam, you increase your stack by 450 if everyone folds. This is about a 30% increase in stack size. If someone calls with a draw you have way the best of it.
OTH if you raise the pot to 750, you are basically stuck anyway and are giving a slightly better price to someone for a draw, particluarly a hand like 9-10s (12 outs). This play is OK also, but you probably have to commit your stack even if the flush card comes on the turn.
I am pretty conservative in these positions, but I am generally happy to take the pot--especially with bottom set.
If you call, you run the risk of a flush card coming off, now if someone pots it to you what would your plan be? You are not really pot stuck having just called the flop, but how many opportunities are you going to get to flop a set at this point either? It also may depend on which flush card comes. If it is the 2s and someone jams you are probably beat (of course you may be against Q-8 or A-Q) OTH if the As comes off someone may easily have 2 pair, now you probably have to call.
I would rather raise here, and probably be inclined to jam which also creates other benefits of called. Later if you jam with a draw people will always fear a set.
So what happened?
You asked what happened... obviously if I tell you then this becomes a bad beat story but here goes anyway.
I decided the pot was big enough that a decent raise would commit me, so I just raised all in to get it over with. The button called with the nut flush draw: local wisdom is that it's always right to call with the nut flush draw! Anyway, the flush card came on the river. Knowing I was 3-1 favourite on the flop and better than 5-1 with one card to come did not help at all!
Afterwards I wondered about making a smaller raise and then going for it on fourth street if a non-flush card falls. Unfortunately I think my stack is not big enough to do this convincingly. If I raise 400 or so, the flush draw will certainly call, and the original bettor might call as well. Then I can only bet 900 or so on fourth street into a pot of over 1300, so he'll probably call again; not because the odds look good but because the bet looks small. He had plenty of chips in reserve too.
So, the other possibility is to call the flop bet, and reraise all-in if raised, or bet all-in on 4th street if no flush comes. That might well secure a fold from the draw, but on the other hand, by just calling you get very little information about what the other players are calling.
I don't normally get rattled by outdraws, but this one really upset me because I had given him the worst possible odds and I would never never call a bet like that myself. Grrrr.
Cheers,
Guy.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. It is frustrating but get used to it :) Just calling is definitely asking for trouble. Not only the flush draws get a cheap shot at you, the straight draws also do.
I wouldn't have gone all-in on the flop but would have made a decent raise planning to go all-in on the turn.
Ken Poklitar
Since "There is a long way to go in this tournament," I think you shoudl play this essentially the same as you would in a ring game. That is, be more worried about winning chips than winning the pot. Later in a tourney I would almost certainly move all in, as I think it gives the least chance of being called by a hand that could suck out on me.
But, at this point, I would make a raise that would make it wrong for a flush draw to call me, including pot odds. Since you are about a 3-1 favorite, you should raise a bit more than the pot, say to 800. Even though this leaves you pot committed, and some would say that therefore you should go all in, I think it makes it more likely that you get called by a hand that is drawing virtually dead, like AQ.
Maybe this is tainted by playing tournaments with so many weak players in them. Against good player, you should probably just go all in, as they will understand that you should be pot committed anyway.
As an aside, I think it is important not to fear specific hands like JsTs which have extra outs. These will only rarely be around, and you are not making that bad of a mistake if you only think in terms of 9 outers.
Q86, with 2 spades, which means that any of 28 different cards can appear that make a straight or flush for somebody. And, with the pot being 550, if you just call, anybody behind you with ANY of those draws is getting a pretty good price to come in and try to catch.
So, as others have said, you must raise, or you will have no idea whether you're still ahead or not when the 5 hits the turn and somebody makes a big bet into you.
I would probably raise to 500. That is enough to make it a mistake for any of the straight draws to call, since they have to consider the spades that make their straight to be no good. It doesn't make the price too bad for the flush draws, but if they don't have the nut flush draw, they again would be making a mistake to call. However, this raise is low enough that somebody with KQ certainly might call, and that is exactly the hand(s) you want to play with, somebody who has almost no chance of drawing out on you.
If you think you need to raise more to knock out the middling flush draws in your game, then raise more. If the raise reaches the point where it is taking more than half your stack, then just go all-in. I always take special notice when somebody with 1350 in chips bets 900 or the like. I'm thinking they're either trying to bet as big as they think I'll call, or that they lack full confidence in their hand. Differentiating between the 2 reads is the tough part, of course.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for all your replies.
I am becoming convinced that this one really was just bad luck (see post above for outcome of hand). I probably can't avoid going all-in here, whether it be on the flop or on the next card, and if the nut flush draw wants to come along, then the outcome is down to chance.
Incidentally, would you ever consider calling an all-in bet of 1300 or so into this pot with just the nut flush draw?
Guy.
"Incidentally, would you ever consider calling an all-in bet of 1300 or so into this pot with just the nut flush draw"
NO, Well sometimes . . . Never in this situation.
If I had a TON of chips (ie 8-12K) and this could move me up a money ladder if I bust you, and I dont really fear doubling you up, Yes I would call. Also If I had overcards which I mistakenly thought might be good to go along with my draw I Might call.
Yes, I would call sometimes. First, if I think there is a decent chance you have trips, then no, I probably never call your bet. But, what if I put you on top pair at best, and a bluff as also a big possibility? I mean, if you're bluffing a straight draw or a flush draw here, then I'm ahead, AND I have a good number of outs if you hit on the turn to get ahead of me. There are some players who love to slowplay so much that if they bet all-in like you did, I know there is just about zero chance they have 2-pair or better. Against one pair or a semi-bluff, I am a solid favorite with an A-high flush draw, so I can call against those guys.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Anyone know when it will be on? I thought tlc in July.
The 1999 World Series will be shown this month on TLC. This year's World Series will not debut until August or September. The website PokerTournamentPlayer.com has a listing of upcoming poker events on TV, so keep checking there.
- Daryl
testing
There are basically four matchups that you need to be concerned with when calling an all-in bet. Overpairs, underpairs, overcards, and a single overcard.
If you have 23, I'm ignoring being suited because it does not make it that much better, against an all-in that you know would have a pair of fours or better you will need pot odds of approximately 7-to-1 in order to call the all-in bet. Note that, it is unlikely that your opponent holds a pocket pair, since the odds of having a pocket pair are 16-to-1. If it is an all-in player, he is more likely to have ace-rag, or two big cards.
If you have an underpair to your opponents overpair you will need odds of 4-to-1 to call. It does not significantly make any difference if you have 22 and your opponent has AA or 33.
If you have 23 against any two overcards, including AK, you will only need approximately 2-to-1 odds to call the all-in. So, if it is a player that plays any ace, which is very common, you can call.
If your opponent has a pair of eights down to threes, and you have 92. You can call with odds of approximately 2.6-to-1.
If you have AK and your opponent had any pair, queens or less, you will need odds of approximately 1.3-to-1 to call. In virtually most cases, the dead money from the blinds is enough to make the call automatic. Note that, it is very unlikely for your opponent to have a pocket pair of aces or kings, since you know two of them are out of the deck.
Keeping this information in mind, here's a hand I played at this years super-satellite. The blinds are 50 and 100. I have the big blind, after posting 100, I only have 100 left. A tight player in early position bets her last two hundred, and everyone folds up to me. With her 200 bet plus the blinds, the pot is offering me 3.5-to-1 odds on the call. I figure that she has two big cards and one of them is an ace. If you remember previously, I only need odds of 2-to-1 to make the call, even if she has AK. I had 74 and called. On the turn, I paired the seven. She lost with AJ. Even though her hand was favored to win, the pot was offering me the correct price to play the hand.
All comments welcome for discussion.
Here is one that has been bothering me lately if it was right or not.
NL Tourney at the Orleans Last night. Blinds are $100 and $200. I am in BB with QdJd. I have about 2k in chips. The UTG+1 goes all in with his remaining $900. Everyone folds to me and I called after some thought. My read was almost dead on. I put him on a medium pair and he turned over 8's.
Was I correct in this call with my overcards/suited heads up for no more betting? He is an ever so slightly favorite and is almost dead even pre-flop. So I figured I would defend. I actually won the hand on a wicked straight that fell, but that is irrelevant. What does everyone think?
Bud
Budman,
I think it's an easy call suited or not, I would have called. You were getting 1.7-to-1 pot odds. Your chances of winning the hand being suited is approximately 49% and unsuited 46% against an underpair to your connectors.
Good Luck
Mark
Automatic call. Unless you know this player to only move in with a big ace (ie A-Q) or AA, KK, QQ, JJ you have to call. You are getting decent odds against nearly every other hand including A-K. When you figure he could be making a move with nearly any hand getting this short stacked so near the blinds, I think the call is clear. Interestingly I would be more reluctant to call if it would break me. But, I probably still would.
I am new to tournament play and have a few questions. How are you supposed to play medium pairs in tournaments? My stragedy has been to either raise or fold with the medium pairs. Here a few recent examples. These hands all occurred at the final table. I'm sorry but I don't have specific chip counts.
Full table, limit tournament, UTG, get pocket 99's, raise everyone folds. Play had been very tight. Right or wrong play?
5 handed, 30,000 in play and I'm second chip leader with 7,000. Chip leader has 8,000 and the other three around 5,000. The blinds are 150, 300. I get 77's on the button. Cutoff seat (5,000 in chips) raises and I re-raise. Cutoff calls and flop comes rags. He bets the flop, I raise, he folds. Right or wrong play pre-flop? What hands would you re-raise pre-flop short-handed,Big-Ace, any pair?
No limit Tournament, Final Table has just started and I am the shortest stack. I got four times the BB blind. Chip leader, middle position, raises 2x the BB. The chip leader has had the same betting pattern the whole tournament. He raises 2x with Big-Ace cards. He raises more with big pocket pairs and tries to limp in with small to medium pairs. I get 77's in late positions. What is my play here? Do I call and see the flop and if the flop comes rags go all-in? Do I re-raise pre-flop being a slight favored? My decision was to fold because I want to be the one raising first one in. Right or wrong play? Everyone folded and chip leader shows Ace-Queen. I never got another playable hand and ended up being basically blinded away.
I like the way you played all 3 hands.
With the 99, raising and seeing them all fold is exactly what you want. Anyone who calls probably has 2 overcards, and it will be hard to play the hand profitably postflop, especially if they're acting last.
With the 77 in limit, your play is good and aggressive. Your choices preflop were to reraise or fold, so I'm glad you didn't just call. As for the raise on the flop, that was good or bad depending upon your read of the player. Apparently, it was good.
Finally, I think folding is the better play with 77 in the NL hand you describe. If you reraise preflop, he is pot-stuck and will call, and you are a slight favorite with the added advantage of dead money from the blinds. However, even though you'll be getting a payoff of 5.5:4 with a slight lead, this is the final table. Survival pays benefits, and here it is probably correct to avoid the risk even though the benefit is more than good enough in terms of chips to be won. However, you don't say how many spots get paid, and if it's 6 or fewer, then playing this hand might be correct. Your idea of just calling preflop and seeing the flop has some merit, but it depends upon 2 critical things. First, if you just call, the big blind probably should be coming in also with almost any hand, given the price he's getting. Second, will the raiser check-and-fold when he misses the flop? If he hits his kicker rather than his A, will you know it? Against some players, it will be very hard to play correctly postflop. But, no matter how predictable this guy is postflop, you probably have to reraise preflop just to ensure that it's heads-up.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
IMO you played the first two correctly but I would have raised all in with 77 and here's why.
Being shortest stack you have limited hands to choose from until your blinds. Since you have a good read on him you know you aren't up against and overpair.
Being first to raise here makes no difference. You only have 4x the BB and the chip leader has A-Q. He will call your raise since he really can't get hurt to bad here. Also being 1st to raise can actually hurt you (if you had more chips). You got a good read on this player based on his prior play in the tourny with certain hands. If you raise 1st it's harder to tell if he called with A-Q or AA.
IMO when your are short stacked AND others faceing the blinds before you will survive them (barring a big chip loss) you have to play this hand and go all in especailly if you know where the raiser is at. Otherwise you will suffer the same fate as you did in the last tourny, a blind victim.
Are they legitimate? How are the games?
Thanks for any input.
We're at the final table, and we're all in the money. I have a medium sized-stack, about 7 grand.
Blinds are 500-1k, bets 1k-2k.
Preflop, UTG raises, with maybe another 1.5 k behind him.
Chipleader re-raises.
I'm on the button, I look down and see 77. Muck or reraise?
I mucked, and UTG calls. They go all in on the flop, which was rags. UTG turns over AT, and the chip leader turns over AQ. I would have won that hand, and more than doubled up, had I stayed. Do you still think I made the right decision?
Yeah you made the right decision.
Given the situation facing 3 overcards you win about 45% of the time. But if instead they had 4 unique overcards you only win about 1/3 of the time. Plus there was a reasonable chance they could have an overpair.
Ken Poklitar
> Do you still think I made the right decision?
You obviously did not make the right decision, as you would have won.
However, you did still make the smart decision. And, in the long run, all you can do is make smart decisions and know that doing so will win out eventually.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Jimmyjam,
Muck!!! There's no reason to get involved here. Reraising puts you in the dangerous position of committing almost 30% of your chips on a hand that's a very tiny favorite at best. At worst, you are a big dog if UTG or chip leader has a bigger wired pair than you.
If chip leader passes, then a reraise is a viable option to get the blinds out of play. Against 3 people, you really have to hit a 7 or a very small board to win.
Haven't read your results yet, so that's my 2 cents worth. Look forward to reading how it turned out.
Best wishes, Mike
When the blinds are .5k-1k and UTG's stack is only 2.5K, he should be raising with an awful lot of his hands. Thus you are very likely to be a favorite, and it's not that inconceivable that you are a big favorite (if either of his cards is 7 or lower). It depends on the exact payouts and chip positions, but reraising usually would not be wrong. If prizes are particularly top heavy, I would definitely reraise.
Didn't see that it was re-raised, somehow.
Muck is definitely the right play.
Muck. Why battle a raise and a re-raise with a smallish pair. It is possible that UTG has 2 big cards and chip leader is isolating the raiser but I would find a better hand to battle.
Ken Poklitar
Jimmyjam - Muck because both or your opponents are already battling and your hand is not great, even for three handed. You are assured of second place and have a shot at first if small stack is eliminated on this hand.
Buzz
Jimmyjam,
I think this could be a very close decision depending on the amount of chips of the other players. If you fold you need to consider how far up the ladder you can make it compared to your odds of winning this hand. I ran some hand comparisons on Caro's Poker Probe to help you make this decision in the future.
As Th wins 21.42%
Ac Qd wins 23.62%
7s 7c wins 54.96%
So you can see, if you had known what they had you should have moved-in. The pot odds were there and they would put you in good shape. But, lets be realistic. If the reraiser is just as likely to have an overpair to your hand then the results would be not so good. I ran a simulation with an overpair to your sevens.
As Th wins 22.93%
8c 8d wins 54.24%
7s 7c wins 22.83%
As you can see, most players would consider the reraiser to have a pair, but if the reraiser thinks his opponent is weak he will reraise with a big ace or a big pair. Let's assume that the possible combinations you think he will reraise with are AQ, AK, AA, KK, QQ, and JJ. There are 24 combinations of AQ and AK, if UTG has AT, and 21 possible pairs combinations that the reraiser could have. So, it's close to even money that the reraiser has a big ace connector or a big pair. By adding the results from both scenarios, your real chances of winning the hand are approximately 38% if you consider the reraiser to equally likely to have AK and AQ vs. AA, KK, QQ, and JJ.
If you play this hand, you would have to raise all-in. You must be getting approximately 1.7-to-1 pot odds or better to make the play. Furthermore, you should think about what position you expect to finish if you do or you don't. If I thought that I could only possibly make it to the next place, and it paid the same, or a small increment, I would play the hand. Since, you had 7K of chips left, I would fold most likely and wait for a better spot especially if I thought other players would bust out before me. If I was short stacked I may play the hand.
Good Luck
Mark
Easy fold. Let them battle it out, and hopefully you move up a spot right here. While you may not be against an overpair, there is too much chance of it for you to risk. Plus, it is going to be hard to outplay anybody here. What do you do when the flop comes J84, and the chipleader bets into you? He doesn't have to have a pair here, AK or AQ might bet into you, but if he has an overpair or just hit one, you're drawing almost dead. It is going to be tough to do the right thing postflop unless the chip leader is a very passive, predictable player. Since he just reraised, he probably isn't that passive.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This is not even close. After a raise and a re-raise QQ, or A-K would be close. 77 is NOT--easy easy muck.
I agree. It's not even a close decision. Since the re-raiser was also the chip leader, he is going to take your whole stack if the flop is rags with no seven, and he has an overpair. And even if he is on AQ, AK etc., you are a very small favorite against one player, and who knows how badly you are going to fare against 2!
Now, if you are late position with UTG small stack raising, and no reraise, and you think the blinds will likely fold, THEN it is a clear re-raise for the 77's.
When playing no-limit hold'em, is it right to string your "lone" opponent along throughout a hand when you feel he is drawing with poor odds? Or do you think it's maybe a good idea to blow him off his hand at some point before the river(so he doesn't make his hand, and make you wish you had sent him running)?
Thanks
..that depends...in general, the conventional wisdom is to NOT let him draw out.
but if you stack will still be rather short after you shut him out, the it may be advisable to try to get all you can out of this hand.
As long as the mistake you're getting him to make when he's calling is big enough, then it is preferable to blowing him off the pot (when he'll be playing correctly by folding as expected).
Now, if you're in or close to the money, things change, and it's often preferable to win now and avoid the risk of being busted or crippled when he gets lucky. Early on, do your best to amass chips, as long as you only give him the wrong odds for his draw.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Just as a side note, when you say:
"Early on, do your best to amass chips, as long as you only give him the wrong odds for his draw."
In no-limit, isn't giving him the 'wrong odds' sometimes a little tricky to do when you have a big stack because of the whole implied odds thing?
Yes, very tricky. In fact, it can be rather impossible. That's why nobody wins every time. You have to do the best you can, given your cards, what you think your opponent has, and how you think he'll react to various actions. You're going to be wrong often. You just have to make the best possible choices each time, and wait for the long run.
All I was trying to get at is when you think the opponent is on a flush draw, don't underbet the pot by a lot, as you're giving him good odds to draw, even if you'll know when he hits and he therefore has no implied odds at all.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I played in a freeroll this past week when the following happened. Freeroll tourny $2,000 prize pool with 5 players left and $1,800 still in the pool. Chip leader says lets chop and all agree but 1 who is about 4,000 behind him in chips. Next hand the guy who didn't want to chop takes a bad beat and is almost at the felt but is on the button.I surive my blinds and that's when this happens. I am 2nd shortest stack in the little. BB (the only chop hold out) can't survive his blinds. Blinds are 1k-2k with no-limit betting. I have 6k. Let me say this before I continue. I HATE TO CHOP unless I am getting a VERY good deal OR unless it's a freeroll like this. UTG raises to 5k (average player) and the button (soild tricky player) makes it 15k. I look down and see AA. I thought about it knowing the BB is still steaming from his bad beat and will call all-in. he has 3k left. I also know that the others, if the BB gets knocked out will chop next hand. Let me add the chop would be and even split on the pool. I fold my aces and like I thought the BB calls and so does the original raiser. They check it out and the BB get busted out and we chop the now $1,700 pool 4 ways. Was this a good play? Should I have played and taken the chance? 5th place was $100 4th place paid $200 (assuming I played and both the BB and I lost I would get 4th) and I got $425 with the chop. Any thoughts are welcome. Even "you folded AA preflop... your a dumbass" ©¿©
There are some valid reasons for folding AA - in limited situations mostly in super satelites and on the bubble for a final table - BUT - you say you hate to chop - what difference is it free roll or buy in?
If you thought you were better off with a chop then it was not a bad play I guess - you may have trippled through busted out the "non-chopper" and been in a position to improve your chop share.
I remember once being down to one chip 6 handed 2nd place guy didn't want to chop so I offered him $200 from my share to chop he took the deal and I made about $500 more than I would have in 6th place.
We all have different motivations for what we do and I think if you can rationalize it - well - it is OK.
yesterday, saturday, I saw somethig along the same line.
from a start of 65 players we were down to the final two tables...both tables were short handed, so we were due to combine for the final table very soon.
5th thru 10th all get back their 200 buy in, and the balance is paid to 4 places.
as the dealer was pushing chips to the winner of our last hand we saw comotion at other table, several were standing, so we knew one or more were about to be knocked out..good for us! as our dealer was passing out the cards for our next hand the director came over and told us to finish the hand and then combine..we were now down to 10.
my two cards were stinkers, so I mucked..player on my left who had shortest stack in the room, said to the director "does that mean if I lose this hand i dont get credit for being at the final table, and don't get 200"?? reply was yes, he did NOT. He swowed me his AA before he thru them in and assured himself of 200!!!
just a small brag..forgot to tell you that we played on till final two..1st prize 4,950 and 2nd 2,475.
chip leader and I made a deal...I got 3,200 for second he got the balance. sure felt good.
I think Greg says right down at the bottom of the Forum something along the lines of "and people don't understand that I can win at poker ?". Amen to that.
Andy.
I can understand why you did it. Just last Thursday at the Orleans Open No-Limit there were 28 players left and they were paying 27 places. We were playing hand to hand. I had the second smallest stack of all players left (my best guess). The smallest stack went all in (early postion) got one caller and I looked down at pocket queens. Folded them without hesitation. The small stack lost and I was in the money. Not aces, but a great hand. Sure I could have called or even raised to try and get the caller out, but he had a huge stack and I would have to have committed well over half of my chips to a call. Sometimes you fold and live to fight another day.
I like your play if and only if you are pretty sure you are going to chop it should the BB bust. You have to be sure the button won't fool around and say that now that he's got more chips than everybody, he doesn't want to chop. Or maybe he'd like more $$$ since he's got more chips. You have to consider this.
If you are sure you'll get a split, then this plays like a supersatellite where you get nothing for 5th but you get an entry if you finish 4th or better, regardless of chip count. Then folding your aces is fine.
One more point, I really don't like the play of both the BB and the button. UTG has already put in a raise, fine, the button should flat call if he just want to chop it if he expects the BB to call as well. That way, they can both "team" up against the BB and bust him. There is no advantage to blowing UTG out of the pot if he wants to chop it even after the hand. Evenmore, a reraise could scare the BB and make him fold a hand he would not have folded for the original raise. The BB should have seen this and folded his hand, hoping UTG would bust and he can then agree to a deal now that he is shortstacked.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
How many chips do you have if you win this hand? Sounds like 23K or thereabouts. What fraction of the chips in play does this represent? You got $425 with the chop, but what if they hadn't agreed to it anymore? What if the BB won the hand? There was probably at least a 25% chance of that. How much would your stack of 23K be worth if you had played and won? Lots of questions, but I need to know the answers before I can say whether I would have folded or called all-in here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
For those of you who will be at the Orleans this week for the TOC, please do say hi if you see me. If you're an old friend, I can find you, but if we haven't met, I'm going to rely upon you to notice the guy with the fossils (and now necklaces too).
BTW, it appears that I'm a lock. My wife's psychic friend called this morning before I left for work. When I picked up, she told me she was calling to invite us to visit her and her family at their house in Maine for the weekend. I told her why I couldn't make it. Then, she told my wife that the second I mentioned the tourney she had visions of rubies and garnets, meaning that I would make a lot of money this trip.
So, there you have it. The English bookies should be adjusting my odds sharply downward right now, so get your bets in while you're still getting the old odds.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hey I picked you as one of the fabled 5 in the RGP TOC guessing game.
Hope I have not added any pressure to you :)
Ken
Good luck Greg,
It's a real shame we couldn't meet up (and Ken) but I may be coming back out for the World Poker Open in January or even (with a following wind) Foxwoods in October.
Andy.
Has anyone ever played in a tournament at the Plaza in downtown Las Vegas? According to Poker Pages, they have a Saturday morning tournament with a $20 buy-in...I'm going to be in Vegas this coming weekend, so I'm trying to find out if anyone has played this tournament before, and can give me an idea of how good the competition is, and if it's worth playing.
Also, can anyone suggest any other low buy-in tournaments I might enjoy? I know that quite a few places offer such tournaments on Saturdays, I'm just looking for guidance from people who have actually played in them.
Thanks for all your help.
NotQuiteDead
Well, thanks to some outrageous fortune in the 7-Card 8 or Better on Monday I cleared $3200 overall which I was fairly pleased with. I made 3 or 4 major ricks in this competition only to escape with half the pot each time. Then 5-handed all I had to do was sit tight while another of the short-stacks successfully negotiated a very favourable deal (thanks Craig !). It was funny how, even though I have done better in Omaha 8 than Stud 8 on Paradise, I felt comfortable in the Stud 8 competitions/satellites but all at sea in the Omaha. I suspect this is because of my live Pot-Limit Stud experience (about 400 hours) compared to live Pot-Limit Omaha (about 4 hours).
In general, the tournaments were very well run with the exception of the Pot-Limit tournaments which had some utterly bizarre rules and rulings. I was shocked by how weak so many of the big-bet players were (and pleased !). I played against a lot of the names and didn't feel it was a problem at all which was great (unfortunately Hellmuth wasn't there and I never managed to cross paths with TJ but never mind).
As for Vegas though you're welcome to it. It was really tacky (who'd've thought ?). It seemed to me that the whole place wished the Rat Pack and the Mob were running things again. As for being the Entertainment capital of the world - Sheena Easton ? A musical revue of "Men are From Mars, Women are From Venus" ?? I think not. I was glad I got out to visit a friend in San Jose the middle weekend, and I much preferred staying at the Orleans in the second week than the Mirage in the first.
Anyway, here's the one hand that is still bugging me, that still makes me think "what if ?". $125 Unlimited rebuy NL Hold-Em, 12 players left, 550K chips in play. I have 55K. 6-handed, unfortunately I can't remember exactly what level we were at but anyway Minh Nguyen makes it 10K or so to go UTG. He has me covered (just I think). Passed to me on the button with QQ. Minh is playing pretty solid but all the same, his raising range is definitely more than AA, AK and KK in this spot. I figure I have too much of a hand to fold, however my stack is approaching "large" (it is certainly enough to be comfortable in the final) and I don't want a big confrontation (is this the flaw in my thinking ?). So I call. A weak player in the blind calls too for about half her stack. Flop A53, Minh goes all-in, I fold without much hesitation and the weak player folds JJ (eventually). Minh shows AK.
Without getting too hung up on what flopped and what Minh actually held, do you feel (as I do now) that a better play would have been to re-raise pre-flop (probably all-in). I think that [if only subconsciously] I was playing for the final table rather than playing to win. If that's the last time I do that (and I intend it to be) then it'll be worthwhile.
Comments welcome as always,
Andy.
I don't like your call. The only way you make money postflop is when a Q and a K or A both flop, and even then he might get away from it, fearing 2 pair.
If you reraise, I think you're correct that it pretty much has to be all-in, and I have no clue whether he would call or not. However, if there is a pretty good chance that he calls, then folding is probably the best play. You really don't want to be flipping coins for your whole stack at this point in the tourney. If there's a good chance he lays it down, then going all-in is probably correct. Of course, you didn't know what he held, but you can probably figure that AK, QQ, and maybe JJ are his borderline hands. He will likely call with AA or KK, and fold anything less than these borderline hands. But, who knows? I sure don't know the guy.
Of course, with him holding AK, he'll miss the flop much more often than not, and you'll probably win when he checks-and-folds those flops. However, if he could also be holding a small-medium pair, you won't be able to tell if his check means 2 big cards that missed, or a small-medium pair that just flopped a set and is being slowplayed. That is why just calling is so dangerous here.
Fold or go all-in. I probably go all-in most of the time, myself, given your description of his raising requirements. Plus, 6-handed, he shouldn't need all that much to make the first raise anyway.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I would have re-raised all-in with your queens. I would like to make it 30-35K to go but that takes up too much of your stack.
Hard to say if he would have called an all-in raise. Certainly he would only think of calling you with AA/KK/AK and maybe QQ.
Ken Poklitar
Thanks guys (and for comments above). These are pretty much in line with my own Monday-morning quarterback thoughts.
My problem with going all-in with the QQ is that it seems very hard for him to make a mistake after this point. He will surely call with AA, KK, fold AQ or a smaller pair and from his POV it doesn't matter too much what he does with AK. Still I think I should have pushed all in anyway. It's far from impossible that I get a call out of JJ behind me. A fold is also good but a call is probably worst.
Andy.
down to 12 players..decisions are really tough then, but it seem clear that this is a fold or all-in situation.
don't know which I would have done, it is one of those things where the "feel" of the moment would dictate. Jim
I would have moved all in. Yes a fold is a close second, but I would not have done that, I know myself. He could be raising with 99, 10-10 etc. If he has AA, KK, or AK and calls well good for him.
One reason you cant call is that you really dont want the blinds in. They could easily flop 2 pair or a set with junk and crush you. ah reminds me of a depressing story:
I was playing in the Taj Main event a couple of years ago when the buy in was $5K. My opening table has Cloutier, Bonetti, Sexton, Fishbien. When it broke I was chip leader.
With about 50 players left I get moved to a table with chip leader Layne Flack. HE has about 22K. I have about 8K. I lose a couple of smallish pots and go down to about 6800. Nobody has more then 10K, other than layne who has about 25K.
Blinds are 100-200 with a $25 ante. UTG layne makes it 800 to go. I am in the cutoff and call with two black kings. This was probably on of the biggest mistakes I have made in a tournement. Think about this 9 handed there is over 2100 in the pot and the BB only has to call 600 to play!!! So the BB calls.
The flop comes 4-8-5 two clubs. The BB checks. Layne bets 2K. I move in. While Layne is having me counted down (we are ignoring the BB), The BB moved in. Layne mucks and shows QQ. I dont know what BB has but I know I am beat.
Turn is a club, now I think I may need another one. River is an 8. What a joke I cant beat anything anymore.
BB turns over 6-7 of spades. He flopped the nut straight. I did not even see it.
If I move in preflop, Layne probably calls as I cant really hurt him. I got stupid, I was thinking maybe he would muck a hand like A-Q if I raised. So what!!! There was a decent size pot. I could easily have made it 2K preflop and gotten the BB to fold. If layne calls great, if he folds fine (for what it is worth he told me he would have called).
Long story to a short point, calling here is bad. It brings in the blinds with unpredicable hands, which can break you. And, you also give an aggressive early position raiser (who could be raising with a small pair) a FREE (his $$$ is already in) shot to flop a set and break you.
I would oniy call if I knew the payer would only raise with AA, KK, QQ, A-K, or A-Q. then I can safely play the flop.
Sorry I meant to add to the very end that even here you have to worry about the BB beating you.
The other thing that bugs me is this. In three successive tournaments towards the end of the trip I was [effectively in one case] knocked out of the competition in a hand which had already been raised, without holding a premium hand myself. Here they are :
1) No-Limit final, I think the blinds were 2000-4000 with a 500 ante and I am around 20K, third to speak. Whatever the blinds were, I had determined that I needed to make a play before hitting the Big Blind. I pick up 99 and am ready to go when UTG raises it up. I haven't got a line on his play. Given a typical raiser's range for this position (UTG 9-handed in the early stages of the final table), AA-TT, AK, maybe AQ, I think I should have passed this hand. I suspect I would have been better off raising myself , even if it's with some cheese UTG. Having been all ready to go with AQ, 88 and 88 again in the previous 15 minutes and put them all down to a raise I just wasn't strong enough to put this one down as well. Perhaps in this situation I should not look at my cards until the action comes to me so that I don't get too excited before a raise changes the situation.
2) Second chance no-limit, 5 tables left, blinds 150-300 with 50 ante and I have about 3000. I have just moved to this table and am 4th to speak out of 9. #3 on my immediate right (unknown player) makes it 1200. I have TT. I go with a gut instinct and push it all in, I think he's weak (or am I imagining it ???). He looks distinctly unhappy until a K rivers and he shows KT. Although this is the one time of the three that I'm in front, I think it may be the worst play of the three.
3) Second chance pot-limit, 3 tables left, blinds 300-600 with 150 ante (yes pot-limit with an ante - go figure), I have about 2500, third to speak. Mike Laing UTG has just lost a biggish pot and goes all-in for about 2000. Although he is beering it up I'm sure he knows what he's doing. But will he make this play with any Ace, or any faces, or even less than that ? It's hard to tell. I have KQ. To be honest with you I was tired and just pushed it in fairly hopefully. A Muppet behind me calls (never got to see his hand), Mike takes it down with A2, I win a small side-pot but bust out soon after. I still can't decide on this one, it seems like a close call. Trouble is, when it's close I think you should err on the side of raising if no-one's in yet and folding if there is an opener.
Comments welcome as usual,
Andy.
> Perhaps in this situation I should not look at my > cards until the action comes to me so that I don't > get too excited before a raise changes the situation.
I'm of the belief that you should never look at your hand until it's your turn to act. I think it is just too easy to display a "fold" tell when you see garbage down there, and that your opponents will therefore know you have something when you don't display this tell. I often look to my left before acting, and I often see the "fold" tell, or lack thereof, and use that information to my benefit.
As for the hand itself, with 99 I would fold unless the 20K was enough to make a big enough reraise that there was a decent chance he would fold. Given the size of the blinds, I doubt it was.
TT hand, your play is fine, as long as there was a reasonable chance that he would fold preflop. If it was a guaranteed call, then it's probably a fold. You can't afford to call for 40% of your stack and then fold to a bet postflop, and if he's calling your raise regardless, you can't be that far ahead. Your only dream scenario is when he has an underpair. However, I don't think that this play was worse than the 99 or KQ play. ;-)
I think that the KQ play is the worst. Mike is all-in, so there is zero chance of winning without a showdown, and he has 80% of your stack covered. If your stack size had been more like 8K or more, then you can gamble for 2K with Mike's likely desperation hand. For 80%, I think you need a premium hand, AQ or better, TT or better, to play here. Wait until next hand, raise with garbage, and you've probably got a higher EV.
Congratulations on your successes out there. Be sure to tell them where you got it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
""I'm of the belief that you should never look at your hand until it's your turn to act. I think it is just too easy to display a "fold" tell when you see garbage down there, and that your opponents will therefore know you have something when you don't display this tell. I often look to my left before acting, and I often see the "fold" tell, or lack thereof, and use that information to my benefit.""
I am in total agreeement with what Greg said above. For lots of reasons. The tell he mentioned, but also I believe you can better process all of the information you get from those who have acted and those that have not, if you have not already been influenced by your own cards.
At the Desert Poker Classic a few months ago the hand that probably won the tournament for me had to do with that. We were down to the final four players in NL Hold'em. I was in the BB and it was folded all the way to the small blind. He took a quick glance at me, then raised all-in. Before looking at my hand, I put him on a steal. I looked and found pocket 8's and called his bet. He had J6o and was eliminated from the tournament. He told me when he glanced at me I didn't look too interested in my hand. Well, that was because I hadn't looked at it yet. One of the other remaining players said "you have waited until you turn every time, I'm not sure why he didn't know that". If he was paying attention, who knows, he may have finished higher or won.
JohnnyD
OK, I'll give this a try. I think in the past I have been more concerned about giving a tell when looking at my cards _when everyone is looking at me_ but I think I can keep a straight face by now.
Andy.
1) Unless the UTG was also a short stack I would muck and hope the next 2 hands have something.
2) I don't think re-raising with TT is terrible. He is in middle position and open-raising. This could be done with a wide variety of hands. I've been known to re-raise with TT :)
3) I would fold KQ facing the UTG all-in bet. Although he does not have to have much it is likely he has an Ace or a pair. Of course he could have sometype of suited connector but I would guess that you are behind most of the time.
Ken Poklitar
Hand 1: You have to fold here. You have enough in chips and you are risking your whole stack on what is AT BEST even money, and possibly worse. Yes if it is folded to you you can make a play, but once an EARLY position raises you have to muck. Interestingly if you were on the button and the cutoff raised, you can move in. You still may be only even money, but you have abtter chance to be even money as a lot of people will raise here with K-J etc . . . Out of early position, these hands are less likely to raise thus the range of hands that will raise contains a higher percentage of big pairs then if the raise came from late position.
Hand 2: This is tough. I mean, you seemed to have some sort of read on the player. I think moving in is wrong, although you were not clear on how many chips he had. Calling is difficult because it is nearly half your stack, but on the other hand, if you think he just has a big ace (and he does not have a big stack) you can call, and move in on the flop if he checks to you. This only gives him 3 cards to hit his overcards rather than 5 chances(of course he only had 1 but you did not know that). If he has AA, KK, QQ,, JJ he will probably call your all in preflop or post flop and you would be busted anyway. Thus, you have little to lose by calling and moving in on the flop. Yes you lose value if he has A-Q and would call your all in and fold when he misses thus costing you some chips. Still I dont think the risk reward is there in comparision to going broke just to gain a few more chips.
Hand 3: Dont ever go broke (or get crippled) calling with KQ in a NL tournement. That should some up my feelings. The BEST you wil EVER be is a small dog. When you are going to CALL for all of your chips you at least want to think you COULD be a favorite to something. I would rather call with nearly any pair than KQ. This is really not that close. KQ is proabably the worst hand in NL. Raising all in is one thing, calling is unacceptable.
BTW isnt this the event Laing went on to win???
Sorry I forgot to deal with the looking at cards thing (although I think I did in another post).
Never, never, never look at your cards until it is your turn to act. Doing otherwise is a huge advantage to most others. Also if you wear a hat people really cant see your eyes when you look down at your cards, this hiding tells.
2) My problem with flat calling is that you really want this hand to be heads up. I think if you play you have to raise to discourage anyone after you from playing too.
3) Apparently yes, Mike Laing did go on to win this event. I wonder if he sobered up later on or kept knocking them back :-)
Andy.
I agree that hand 2 is a really close call. I re-read Greg's response, and he makes a point that I did not describe well.
If you know he is going to call it is prbably a mistake because you cant be that far ahead.
That is my rationalization for calling. If you are going to commit to the hand, AND he will call your re-raise, then you may stand a better chance by getting him to fold on a flop when he misses. Still this is a very close call between folding, calling (with the intent on jamming the flop) and raising all in.
I am not really sure what I would do, I think all of the above are pretty close.
3) I would imagine Mike kept knocking them back. I hate to say this but he really is a better NL player when he drinks. Perhaps it is the fearlessness, but sober he is just not the same player. Although sober he is certainlky a much nicer one ;)
I stopped in at the Orleans while I was in Vegas and played only a couple of satellites (though I did get to play against one bracelet winner and put him on tilt...but thats another story).
My question comes thusly:
Its a NLHE satellite and we are about 5-6 hands in. I am in the SB with Ac7c. We start the tournament with 320 chips and blinds are (at this stage) 5-10. No one has yet been eliminated and there are two prizes (1st is a seat, 2nd is essentially your entry back).
As I say, I am in the SB with Ac7c. UTG+1 limps, a friend of mine raises to 50. 3 people after him call to me.
Question 1: call or fold?
Personally, I felt that in these short satellites you gotta take chances, and I was getting pretty good pot odds, so I called. BB and UTG+1 also called, making 6 people in the pot.
Flop: 8c 7h 3c
Ok, so I flop a pair and the nut flush draw.
Question 2: what to do here?
Personally, I decided to bet 100 into the pot of 300, but in retrospect I made a mistake here. I was pretty well committed (mentally) to going far with this hand, so if I want to take it down, I might as well push all in.
Anyways, UTG+1 called my 100, and my friend reraised all in (he has both UTG+1 and myself covered). My friend does not play a lot of tournaments but he knows whats going on.
Question 3: call or fold?
Results next post.
As you might have guessed, I called, as did UTG+1. UTG+1 had Q-10o, my friend had AA, and the AA stood up to win.
I haven't agonized too much over this hand, but I wondered later if I played it wrong.
Curious to hear what others might think.
Preflop, I think this should be an easy fold. Even though you're getting great pot odds, this is simply too much of your stack. You are too often going to be sucked in with an A high flop and lose to a better kicker. Or, a raggedy flop with a 7 in it, and you figure there's some chance you're ahead, or have some outs if not. Plus, you'll flop a flush draw much more often than a completed flush, and given the number of players, I would expect any bet on the flop to be all-in, so you'll be pot-stuck and go broke 2/3 of the time there.
After that flop, I go all-in. You're hoping your buddy has AK and will release, and that nobody else has enough of a hand to play with you. If you do get called, you have at least 9 outs, and maybe 14, so you're either a small dog or a small favorite, with lots of dead money. Plus, you MIGHT get a call from a hand like KcQc, who thinks he has 15 outs but really only has 6 (that are subject to 127 redraw outs by you).
Once your buddy reraised all-in on the flop, your call was easy. Given the size of the pot, the fact that half your money is already in there, and even if you knew you were up against a set of 8s and had fewer chances of winning, you'd still have an easy call.
Too bad you didn't catch a 7. You could have won, and maybe put everybody who didn't notice your nut flush draw to go with it on tilt.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I agree that in a regular tourney calling the raise is incorrect but I am not sure how bad it is in a satelite.
Of course this assumes the player can get out with chips if an ace flops :)
Ken Poklitar
I was drawing to a flush or two pair (or better). An ace would not have me interested in the pot in and of itself; if two aces were on the flop, I probably would have taken my chances that the last ace was not out there.
I had never played a satellite before, the most similar experience being paradise tournaments, but those are certainly not no limit. I was kind of flying by the seat of my pants and figured in a short tournament that risks were required.
My friend also wondered about how he had played the hand. He later felt that maybe he should have simply flat called the flop (having correctly put me on clubs), and seen if the turn was a club before putting it all in. What do you think of that concept?
I think your friend did fine. There is both a flush draw and a straight draw. Once you bet 100 and get one caller, he needs to raise all-in like he did. He would like 1 or both of you to drop out. Plus if he only calls then other players may also call the 100. Although calling may give him the opportunity for a bigger pot it also gives him the opportunity to lose more often.
Ken Poklitar
I hate to post after Greg, because there's usually nothing much else to say, but in some of these "cheap" satallites I'll try to double or triple early. So this is the kind of hand I might play. If I go bust, then I just play another one. The reason I like to do this is because I play so much better with a big stack. It allows me to control the table. Some of you play well with a small stack. I don't.
JohnnyD
I think calling pre-flop is fine. With that many callers you could flop a monster.
Although the flop is wonderful I don't think betting 100 is correct. You are about a 50/50 shot at winning facing an overpair or top pair. Against AA or A8 you still win 40%+.
So I would go all-in. It is either a short satelite or a profitable satelite :)
Ken Poklitar
I think Greg summed it up. There is no way I am calling 50 when I only have 320 with A-7s.
That said, once I see that flop I just jam. Geez there is like 300 in there already you may as well try to double up here by getting everyone to fold. If they call you KNOW you have good outs. If they fold you are definately happiest.
And yes, your friend was correct to move in, and yes at that point you had to call.
Reading the post below about when to look at your cards reminded me of something I was recently thinking about. I agree with Greg and JohnnyD that the best time to look at your cards is once it is your time to act.
The question is about pre-flop decisions and how long to take to make them. I know some players who are lightning quick. I have read TJ is like that. I try to be fast but sometimes I wonder if I am too fast. When I think back on errors I make usually they are on quick decisions.
I don't want to give off any tells based on the speed of my decisions. In a perfect world I would take the same amount of time for all decisions. Does it matter if I take longer to raise vs call vs reraise?
Any ideas out there? Do you think this is even an issue except at the highest tourney levels?
Ken Poklitar
Maybe I'm not supposed to mention this since Badger asked for all his posts to be removed, but...
Badger said that he looks at his cards right away, and that he believes this is best (that is, not just because he is lazy). His reasoning was that you don't want to waste a ton of mental energy watching each minute detail if there is no chance you will play, which is the case a significant portion of the time. Not that he doesn't still watch people to pick up on betting patterns etc, but he doesn't expend as much energy doing so if he has J2o.
Badger has been pretty successful at tourneys, so while he isn't necessarily right, he probably isn't too wrong. Or maybe he is, but it's something to think about at least.
David
Now you mention it I remember that too. Conserving mental energy is extremely important when you step up to bigger (longer) tournaments. I think you just have to mix and match, conserving energy when you need to.
Regarding this, I found that taking an MD player in with me was particularly helpful when it came to conserving energy (and staying patient). Now, I would always take it off when moved to a new table (to get a line on the new set of players) and so on, but during the early afternoon (particularly in big-bet tournaments) it often helped to clamp on some earphones for half an hour - hell even if you don't switch the player on it stops people from trying to tell you bad beat stories.
Andy.
I sort of agree with thought about not much of a factor till at higher stakes.
BUT whatever...do not do same thing all the time during a poker game...as a PL player, I can tell you deception has value, and this must be true to some extent in LMT also.
One of the best habits you can develope is to not have any!!! Jim
But if that's what he said, he's making my point. It is going to be very hard for him to relax mentally when he sees J2o and yet not make that relaxation apparent to his observant opponents. So, when I look to my left, I'll probably be able to tell if he has a hand he's folding no matter what I do, and this can allow me to try and steal with my medium hand that I would've folded otherwise. Plus, if he DOESN'T look relaxed, I'll be a lot less likely to try and steal with that medium hand, because I know he likely has something at least potentially playable.
I think it's easier to avoid giving off tells when you're looking at your cards, in that last second when it's your turn to act, than it is to avoid giving off the "fold" tell when you have already looked and you're holding garbage. So, Andy's concern is real, but less likely to be an issue now that he's more experienced.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If Badger said that and if Badger does that, I believe he is wrong. You can pick up just as much information when you're not going to play your hand as you can when you are going to play your hand.
JohnnyD
NEVER look at your cards until it is your tuen to act. Greg is dead on here. I do the same thing he does, I am always looking to my left to see if a person is showing interest in a hand. Sometimes I go so far as to (while looking down at my cards, but to my left, under the brim of my hat) to start lifting my chips to see if I get a mucj or call reaction.
Badger is IMHO absolutly wrong--as his opinion was described. The time when I am not going to play should not be made clear to my opponents. In addition, I want to focus on ther players until it is my turn to act EVERY time, both for consistency and to enhance my ability to read them throughout the event.
As to how long to take before acting, although you dont want to develop habits the amount of time does not really matter as long as you mix it up. For example: Sometimes you will need to think a long time with marginal hands, TAKE YOUR TIME, rushing, particularly in NL is suicide. In order not to make this a tell, try to take a similar amount of time when you have the nuts (or close to it).
This way sometimes you will act quickly with the nuts, sometimes slowly, sometimes quickly with marginal hands, sometimes slowly.
Interestingly you can use this method to create reverse tells. Typically a player who takes a long time to act is not bluffing, because the person acting would think it was obvious that he had a tough decision to make and the longer he took the more risky the bluff. Because so many top players are aware of this tell, it is easily reversable--sometimes (but just sometimes) when you are going to bluff, take a long time (like a minute) then move in. Only do this against a strong player.
So in conclusion, it is not the amount of time you take, nor the fact that it is always the same, what is more important is the element of randomness. For example I have a few hands I take a long time to fold even though I know I am going to fold them. The hand may be different every day, but it adds randomness to my action. Oh and that reminds me, I think it can be important to SOMETIMES take a long time to fold a hand that you KNOW you are going to fold.
This puts a lot of pressure on the original better. John Juanda is great at making this play. Whenver you bet into him he makes you believe your whole stack is at risk even when he has no intention of calling. This allows him to do the same thing later and move in on you if he picks up a tell--is he bluffing? Very few know on any given hand, and THAT is the point.
Good information.
I guess I have always felt slow decisions show weakness. Ie. should I raise or fold? But as you said if I do this for marginal and nut decisions then it is not an obvious tell.
And I have seen players like Juanda take a long time to decide to call or fold my all-in raise, then to flip over a 72o and of course fold.
I think I will try to slow down all my decisions plus mix things up in the future.
Ken Poklitar
Can someone inform me how well the daily reno tournies are run.. Are they worth the trip from vegas should I decide to rent a car....
jg
I'm going to be the big guy, with the shaved head, with a solid color shirt, prolly looking disgruntled finishing one place out of the money :)
If you see me and want to say hi, and talk poker that would be cool. I go by the name EnderFFX on my Trop card and will prolly be playing $5-$10 and maybe a little $5-$10 during my visit.
My real name is Scott
Hope to see you there!!
Anyone know if there are any decent card rooms in the Toronto OT area, and especially if they host regular small tourneys? I'll be in that area for a couple weeks and unfamilar with whether poker exists there. Thanks!
Mike L.
Casino Rama north of toronto is starting tournies but dont know when they`ll be commencing best to go to website and get toll free number and call.Ask for poker room... They do spread holdem...
jg
I never did do a "trip report" for my first ever WSOP event, but the way I got bumped has been bugging me ever since. Here's the scenario. I won a fairly good size "warm up" event, Spread limit HE (121 players) at Garden City in early April. 5K+ for first place, plus a $2100 entry into the WSOP no limit HE event and trip expenses, (and trophy and picture in "Poker" mag!).
Get to Binions early, get my seat assignment. At my table, turns out I have last year's 10K NL "big event" champion 2 seats to my right, (Chris Ferguson), but never got involved in a hand with him.
Anyway, long story short... I made it through the first few rounds, went to the afternoon buffet break, and back at play.
Blinds were $100 / $200, I have mediocre stack of $ 2800 at this point.
I'm seat 5, middle position it is checked to me and I look down to find As,Ks. I bring it in for $400, and get a raise behind me (seat 8, a solid and reasonable player so far) of $600. I don't like my hand as much, but he is a late position raise trying to isolate. Now there's $1,500 in the pot, I feel that clearly I must call here, so I call the $600 and have $1,800 left.
Flop comes 2s, 4c, Qh. I reasonable flop for me...maybe. I feel I have to either check and fold here or bet out strong. With A,K and that board, it will be hard to check and fold, though MAYBE I would get a check behind me, but very unlikely no matter WHAT he holds since he is the re-raiser. If I check he almost surely will bet.
So I go for broke, lead out with an all in bet. Re-raiser calls right off and my heart sinks. No help turn is a 9, and river a 5. He flips over pocket QQ's for a set. I was drawing dead all along.
Was I way too aggressive with a hand that was not "made" at this early stage of tourney and in such early position?? Should I have assumed his pre flop "over the top" raise was big pocket pair?
All thoughts welcome.
P.S.
It was a real rush just to be able to sit with the masters, last year's champion, and play. Hey, Huck Seed was at a table right behind me, and he got bumped out long before I did!!! hehe. Like that is any consolation......
I learned very early on in no-limit play that I love AKs preflop, but adjust my thoughts on the hand quickly after the flop. I made a similar play in a live no-limit game and lost a huge pot and my stack at the time. I felt very foolish when the call was made. Since then, I play the hand aggressively preflop, but am ready to ditch this "Top No Pair" in a hurry after.
Keep playing hard!
Personally I don't like the way you played the hand. The one thing that struck me about the No-Limit play I saw in Vegas last week was that around 60-70% of the entrants would have improved their play markedly by doing one thing and one thing only : making pot-sized bets and raises at all times rather than small bets and horrid all-in slides. I'm not saying that pot-size is always right, just that pot-size every time would have been a great improvement for all these players. One of the worst things you can do is make a small raise pre-flop and then overbet on the flop. Especially when you've missed ! You're giving your opponent a cheap opportunity to break you and you don't win much when your hand is good.
In this particular case you should make it 700 or so to go pre-flop. From that point on you do need to use your judgement, AK is in many ways the most difficult hand to play in that correct play varies tremendously according to situational factors. If you get re-raised pre-flop you just have to use your judgement. If you get called (which would have created a similar situation on the flop to what actually happened), you also have to play some poker. In this case, "if I check he is certain to bet" - well why not check then ? He will bet the hands that you can beat, right ? If you come out betting (especially all-in) it's hard for him to get it wrong, he calls if he's winning and he (probably) folds when he's behind. Occasionally he might fold AK to give you the whole pot but on balance give him a chance to bluff.
Hope you enjoyed the experience all the same !
Andy.
Well said Andy. I too was wondering why he brought it in for only $400. That's a minimum raise. I've seen lots of people doing that recently and, except in rare circumstances, I don't like the play. However, it would not have made a difference on this hand. The worst play was after the flop. Why risk your entire stack on a bet that only gets called if you're behind.
JohnnyD
You needed to raise more. With blinds of 100-200, I would make it 700 to go. Your raise of 400 is asking for callers. Plus you can better define your opponents hands when they re-raise you or call you. If you raise to 700 and someone re-raises to 1700, they probably have a big pair or AK. In your case this opponent could have a medium pair or any big ace.
Once he raises you I think calling is fine. Some players like reraising all-in with AK but I would just call.
Now on the flop since he re-raised you I would probably check/fold depending on how he bets. He probably has some type of pair or a big ace. It is possible that you could make him laydown JJ. I made a similar bluff facing QQ with AK when he called my re-raise. He called and I was down to a few chips.
Ken Poklitar
Good inputs so far on my real world play of AK, thanks. I wish we had more "no limit" small tourneys in areas like mine so that we could develop more of a feel for the game, and how do play tricky hands like AK, and QQ when they unfold this way.
Consensus so far seems to be my initial raise was too small, and overbet on the flop incorrect. Certainly my intuitive analysis after the fact, told me I played it all wrong, so these inputs are helpful.
It would be interesting to reverse the scenario and try and define what would be done differntly if the QQ's are held early, and the AK behind me, and what kind of difficult decisions emerge when the QQ's are reraised.
Would the scenario be essentially identical? Or does the made hand with QQ's early/mid warrant more aggression to try and push out the AK?
If QQ's made a pre-flop raise of 2X to 3X the pot (blinds only), what would you do holding AK in late position? Call? Re-raise? What if the QQ's went all in with a substantially crippling stack size, and you have AK in late position?
"If QQ's made a pre-flop raise of 2X to 3X the pot (blinds only), what would you do holding AK in late position? Call? Re-raise? What if the QQ's went all in with a substantially crippling stack size, and you have AK in late position?"
Good questions. Too good ! That is, they are impossible to answer. With AK (or indeed QQ) facing a raise in front of you, you just have to figure out what hands you think your opponent is raising with and act accordingly. If you decide to play, you then have to choose between a flat call and a re-raise (which often depends on who you think will pay off who on the flop). You have to consider the stack sizes, the stage of the tournament, your opponent's frame of mind, how he perceives you, and so on. See my post Orleans Open (1) below for an example with QQ.
With either AK or QQ a key factor is what you think your opponent would do with AA or KK. There was a girl playing in the $125 No-Limit who must have pushed all-in (with a very substantial stack) at least a dozen times in three hours when I was at her table (on her immediate left !). However, on two occasions she made a small raise with KK and flat-called with AA. This made it super-easy to play against her - unfortunately I never found a hand at the right time. Well it should have been easy, the guy who called her down with 55 and lost to QQ obviously didn't get it :-).
Anyway I'm rambling - these are tough hands to play and it comes with experience. You will only pick this experience up by raising proper amounts and yes, sometimes your opponent plays back and puts you to a tough decision. Trust yourself and you'll get some of them right. Better than going all-in and making it easy for your opponent.
Andy.
Yes this was a horrible play. You gave him every chance to take all of his chips, and had no chance to take all of his.
Your small raise preflop was bad, but could have been mitigated by either moving all in or folding when it was re-raised to you. This is because a small raise followed by an all in really represents AA, and to a lesser degree KK. Will he fold QQ here? I dont know, but at least you have a chance. Furthermore, if an A or a K flops after you just call preflop, he will just muck and you get nothing. If he has AA or KK you are going to lose all of your chips the way you played anyway so you may as well give yourself a chance to win now. If the flop comes 2-4-8, he will call all in anyway because you just dont have enough chips to get him to fold an overpair here.
You say the flop was not scary for you. What would have been? He re-raised. He probably has either AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, KQs, JJ, 1010, or 99. You cant beat anything and you are hoping to scare him into folding AK, JJ, 1010, or 99. If he reraised with AQ, or KQ, he sure aint folding now! A Queen high flop is about the most scary for A-K in this situtation. You could not have seen a worse flop.
Regarding how it is different to play AK v. QQ. It is pretty straight forward. They are about even money against each other but ONLY if it goes to the river. This means that QQ can frequently call to see the flop and then jam if no A or K, whereas AK needs to get the money in preflop to have a fair chance to beat QQ.
Yes this is an oversimplification, but also illustrates why it is critical for a good player to raise middle pairs out of early position. Now when the flop comes 4-7-9--QQ has a hard time jamming because you could very well have a set. If you only raise Big aces, and Big pairs early, QQ becomes very easy to play against you from late position. If it gets beat by an overpair, fine, but at least it can call to see the flop and win most of the time.
Sorry to be so "direct" but I am a firm believer in mucking AK preflop, or moving in with it. I generally only call with it when I have a lot of chips (which you did not). In which case I may bluff at it, but not for all of my chips. In general if I miss with AK I am pretty much done if I was re-raised preflop.
Are you saying that you would regularly raise with 77 in early position ? Or even 44 ? Surely only if you have a lot of chips.
I have a tendency of late to flat call occasionally with a small/medium pair in early position at a full table, just to add some disguise for those occasions when I flat call with AA or KK.
I like your reasoning about the AK/QQ type hands. The problem with QQ though is that you don't know that your opponent has AK, right ? Folding to an Ace on the flop when your opponent has JJ is a disaster. Still, you just have to read your opponent. Have you any thoughts on my QQ hand below, post entitled Orleans Open (1) ?
Andy
I will occasionally raise 77 in early position. Either very early in an event (as advertising) or very late (hoping to pick up the blinds). Throughout the event I will mix it up. I think it is far more important to mix up play by raising with odd hands then limping with big ones. Usually as a tournement progresses the desire to limp decreaes anyway, so I would rather set a field up for a disguise with a series of raises anyway.
I do occasionally limp with AA or KK, but not that often. I think the deception value of limpting with these hands is overrated. I think this because I dont really like to commit all of my chips without a set or 2 pair. When you limp with AA you are usually traping, and planning on getting it all in on the flop.
The problem is that most people will not know you have that big a hand, and you know this, which gives you a great rationalization to call all in when HE has a set or 2 pair. If you made a substantial raise preflop and he still made a big move at the flop you can be more confident with getting a read and perhaps laying down the big pair. When you limp you know he does not give you much credit thus it is harder to justify laying down AA or KK postflop.
OTH if you are very good at reading players, and are willing to lay down AA on a flop that may have you beat then it may be ok. If I had to guess, I would say AA is the most common hand people go broke with when the money goes in postflop.
As to your Orleans hands, I will post a reply there.
I'm seeing this post very late so I hope you read it as I have yet to read any other responses. I played in the Main Event this year and was very nervous for awhile. Halfway through the 1st day after a tough beat that left me with only 5500 I picked up AKs UTG and raised it 3 and a half times the BB(Can't remember the limits)and got re-raised by the button(a solid-aggressive foreign player). I was thinking as action was going around what I would do if I got re-raised and unless the cut-off seat raised, I would re-raise and fold to cut-off only. The button thought for two minutes before calling with his ladies and the flop came 9 high. The turn was a King and the river an Ace so I won the hand but that's not the point. My opponent almost folded pre-flop which was my hope and he couldn't bet me out if I missed the flop which likely would have happened. In no-limit, I like putting the pressure on pre-flop unless I have a really strong tell on someone. To your story, I hate your post-flop bet. You didn't re-raise him pre-flop so he knows you don't have Aces or Kings most likely and you waouldn't bet all-in with Queens(I'm talking as if he did not have the queens) as you would want to trap and you probably don't risk everything with Jacks or tens on the flop. It waould have been an easy call for him no matter what he had. You made a bad play but we all do. I got knocked out on a horrible play myself. Take care.
After another AK post just below, I thought I would post 3 AK hands I had in Vegas. At least I suck a bit less in these hands than the ones posted previously :-).
1) $120 NL Hold-Em (1 rebuy), Mirage. Just after re-buys, I have about 2000 and I think blinds are around 100-200. UTG raises all-in for 7-800. Seat 2 re-raises. 2 has been playing a lot of hands but I haven't seen her re-raise yet. I have AKs on the button. I figure that 2 must think that UTG has a decent hand, and I have to face two opponents which creates the distinct possibility that we have AK v AK v JJ or something which is horrible (and which I got myself trapped in earlier in the week). I pass and the re-raiser wins with KK.
2) Second chance NL tournament, Orleans. Again not long after re-buys, I have about 2500 and blinds are either 100-200 or 150-300, something like that. Cut-off raises to 1000 or so, he has been pretty lively in late position. John Bonetti on the button re-raises. This time Bonetti should be aware that the cut-off could be on a complete steal and does not need a cast-iron hand to reraise, plus there is a good chance the cut-off will fold so we get heads up (which is in fact what happened). I go all-in, board is J high and JB does not show his hand (although a neighbour says he saw an Ace making AQ quite likely).
3) $125 rebuy NL tournament (Orleans), 3 tables left. Blinds plus antes are quite high, I have around 12K. 2nd position flat calls. I raise to 4000 (around pot-size) with AK. Caller calls again. Flop J with two rags. He checks, I push all-in smoothly, he passes. Later says "I'm glad I didn't move in on that flop, I had AK suited". Yep, I'm glad too :-). It's harder to quantify this play as I moved in on instinct feeling that he was weak. If the flop had come say JTx I probably wouldn't have done as there would be too much chance he had caught a piece. I think I played it better than he did just by virtue of being aggressive.
The lessons we can learn are 1) Play of AK is very situation dependent, 2) I rock, don't **** with me !!
Andy.
I believe playing AK (suited or not) well, can make a huge difference in tournament results. Maybe more so than any other single hand. I used to think I was Superman when I got that hand but went home early many times as meek Clark Kent.
I know many will not agree with this, but on a passive table (and yes in NL sometimes you get limpers) with a person or two already limped in, I'll limp with AK. If I miss the flop, I'm gone. If I hit, get paid off by weaker Aces or even Kings.
JohnnyD
Lately I have been Clark Kent with AK!
I think with only 1 limper it is probably best to raise but as we all know AK is a drawing hand and in NL drawing sucks.
It is certainly one of the hardest hands to play in NL.
Ken Poklitar
In hand 1 with UTG only have 700 he does not need much of a hand since the blinds are 100-200 so I don't think UTG+1 needs a great hand to re-raise. I would almost guarantee he has a medium+ pair or AK. But I agree mucking AK is probably best plus the results agreed with you :)
In hand 2, did you re-raise him all-in before the flop? Did he have more chips then you?
In hand 3, I am surprised your opponent played AKs so passively. Just calling and not raising before it got to you? I'll say you played this one great since he didn't have QQ and call your bet :)
Ken Poklitar
Hand 1 - I know that. You know that. I don't think #2 knew that :-). In any case she does have to worry about everyone else too.
Hand 2 - JB must have had more chips than me thinking back because the play did not KO him. Sorry if this wasn't clear.
Hand 3 - I was surprised too. A few minutes earlier it was passed around to him in the SB, he flat called. I bet the pot in the BB with KQ. He re-raised, I passed and he showed 56 ! I didn't want to read too much into this play as he clearly showed his hand for image purposes. Maybe he had some grand plan but I don't know what it was. It's not worth getting too clever at this stage of the tournament IMO.
Andy.
Hand 1: Good muck. I hate these situations. I have been in this a few times the last couple of years, and I usually spend about 2 minutes thinking and then muck.
Hand2: Also very well played. It is rare I will lay down AK to Bonetti here. Of course once he showed me aces. Then again once he showed my 6-2, and once 7-2.
Hand 3: Well this is a judgement call, one I am not usually that fond of. If he acted before you he has A-Q or better. He should not call your preflop raise with A-Q. So I give him 10's or better or A-K. I would almost rather move in with a j-10 flop, at least you have some outs. Of course you had position and he did check, but he could check a lot of hands, and with a J high board he could call with 10's. Good read in any event.
For several reasons (work schedule, other comittments, smoking) I decided not to go to any of the Orleans Open events. But I arrive in LV on Thursday about mid day and plan on playing in the Seniors event on Thursday and the TOC main event starting Friday. I think Greg Raymer will be there and I assume Andy Ward has already left. Anyone else going to be there? If so, look me up.
JohnnyD
I'll be there. ;-0
What seniors event? I thought Thursday was $500 Omaha8, but not limited to only seniors. I hope not.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
There's a seniors event at 4pm where they play all three games like the TOC main event. Then it goes NL at 9pm. It's only a $200 entry with a rebuy for $50. The rebuy goes to some charity. No big deal, but should be fun.
Anyway, Greg, you're WAY too young for a seniors event.
JohnnyD
Hey all. I play in a few of the bay area small-buy-in tourneys, and here are some thoughts/reviews. Any input is greatly appreciated.
I'm actually extremely interested in the forum's opinions on the other weekly tourneys in the area, such as the tourneys at the Oaks, Casino San Pablo, and Bay 101.
First off, the three casinos that I play in primarily are Artichoke Joe's, Garden City, and Lucky Chances.
My favorite tournaments would have to be those run at Lucky Chances. The staff is professional and friendly, and the tournament director, Matt Savage, is one of the best I've seen. You get a fair number of chips, and there is a cap on the rebuys, which makes it less of a crapshoot. Also, they don't bother you about filling out forms on your tournament winnings. Another plus is the selection of games-they spread no-limit 2 days a week, limit 3 times a week, and omaha hi/lo once a week. Unfortunately, there is a core contingent of pretty good tournament players that you usually see at the final table. These players are usually pretty tight and agressive and hard to read.
The runner-up IMO is Garden City, especially the Thursday and Sunday limit holdem tourneys. You don't get many chips, limits increase quickly, and there are unlimited rebuys for the first three rounds and an add-on, which makes playing in this tournament potentially extremely expensive and somewhat of a crap shoot. Also, there is a tough group of tournament regulars there which are really good. Finally, they only spread limit holdem, with a 1/2 holdem/ 1/2 Omaha hi/lo on Mondays. Why do I like this club's tournaments? There are usually 100 participants, and the prize pool is usually upwards of 10 grand. The staff appears competent, and you don't have to fiddle with any forms on winnings either.
Finally, Artichoke Joe's. They are the only ones (in my experience) who make you fill out a w2g form after a tournament win of $600 or greater. Puts a fairly unpleasant cap in tournament winnings-I'd actually rather win $599 than $900, due to my tax bracket. That's the huge drawback, and that's the reason why I almost never play there anymore. I do play the stud tournaments Tuesday mornings, because first place is never more than 500 dollars. The competition there is definitely softer than the competition at the other two casinos, but the player pool is smaller, resulting in smaller prizes. Also, the limits increase too quickly IMO, which makes luck play more of a factor. They spread mostly limit, with one no-limit tourney sunday night and a stud tourney tuesday morning.
Thoughts? Comments? Questions? Flames?
no-limit hold'em tournament.. blinds are $400 and $800 with a $75 ante.
When it gets down to heads-up, our "hero" (me) has $15,000 in tournament chips and the tourist has $60,000 in tournament chips. The reason for the great disparity is the fact that he knocked out almost everyone at the final table and I couldnt put a hand together other than a pocket pair of kings which didnt get a call post-flop.
1st place pays $1780, 2nd place pays $1296.
I know he is tired and wants to go home.. he said so repeatedly as he crushed the final table calling raises with marginals. But I am also pretty tired at this point. Its been 5 hours since the tournament began and I've been in survival mode just eeking by through most of it. I had made a gross error with ATs about three and a half hours into it which crippled me greatly and I had to get lucky on a couple of all-in hands as the blinds crept up on me.
We decided to make a deal and call it quits..
What is a fair deal to make?
(I will tell later what deal I made with him)
Fair deal given chip position and equal skill is 1/5 of the difference which looks like about $1380 to you. If he is a tourist and you have good heads-up experience of course your position should be worth more. Even so I would have thought no more than twice the chip equity, around $1470, especially if he is just going to say "to hell with it" and just play loads of hands. Yes, this is worse for you than him "trying to play poker" and folding too much. So if you get more than $1470 I would say that was a good deal even if he is a tourist.
Andy.
That is about right, you are only playing for about $480. You have 20% of the chips, being worth about 100. Add that to the 1296 for 2nd and you are looking at about 1400 (yes I have rounded every number. Anything over 1400 is for your "skill" or is simply a good deal for you.
Andy and Russell are correct, unless he's the "head-shaking" tourist I ran into last year. When we got to heads-up play, this guy would stare at the cards as the dealer turned over the flop, and you could (barely) visibly see his head shake yes or no. Yes he liked the flop, no he didn't.
We were in the neighborhood of even when we got to heads-up play, but I wouldn't have taken any deal less than 80% of the difference between first and second. I kept waiting for this guy to pull a reverse on me, but he was thoroughly unaware of his tell.
We've got a trend going here. Last Tuesday the tourney was won by a guy who had never before played poker. And it showed. He eliminated me in about 27th place. Blinds are 100-200, and I raise all-in UTG to 990 with AQo. Solid player behind me, who knows me, and who knows I don't have to have that big of a hand to raise here calls all-in for about 600-700. Glen, our semi-regular poster, is the table chip-leader and after thinking awhile makes a bad call with 77 on the button (Sorry Glen, but that was a stinky call, even though you had the chips to afford it). Finally, our tyro player, who has posted the 200 big blind, calls all-in for a total of about 890. Board is T high rags, and tyro wins the main pot with T6o! Glen wins the small sidepot with his 77. I mean, I know the guy is getting huge odds, about 3500 for his 700, but T6 against 3 player, one of whom will often have an overpair? Ai-yah, even I don't make that call.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
As promised..
The final deal was to take $1400. I guess I was on the mark. We had to haggle a small bit.
Glen wasnt able to play this week.. he had to work.. thats just too bad ;-) the one week he doesnt play it.. I decide to and come in 2nd.
I havent told him yet.. I think his modem is still on the fritz so he wont be able to read about it here.
Played this tournament only 3 times this year.. the other two times were bust after 2 rebuys ($75 each event). Normally I dont like to play tournaments.. especialy small ones like this tournament used to be. Less dead money in the prize pool makes me look for a weak ring game instead.
"a stinky call"
Excuse me Fossilman, you did say "a stinky call" Please define... no ... maybe somethings are best left unsaid.
vince
Took me a while to see this post and it probably won't get a response since it's been a while but there is serious mis-info here I think.
First, I was never the chipleader at any point during this tourney. If I was, I'd have won it! LOL
Second, I put Greg on exactly what he raised with. So my 77 is better than 50/50.
I honestly don't remember another caller in the hand b4 me. But if there was I must have ruled him out of having any real hand here.
I had a reasonable amount of chips so my risk was nil.
And most important, tourist is on my left and I know he's calling (got the chips in his hand). Thought seriously about moving all-in here preflop but afraid he might dump the hand.
I wanted to pick up the side pot against him. ( He had more chips than Greg is indicating as I remember.
The flop contained no A, K, Q, J so I felt confident that I was a strong favorite to have the best hand.
I did bet at that point.
I don't think this was a bad call at all. As I remember, this hand was won by rag cards yet I made money on the hand.
How bad is that?
Keep playing hard!
P.S. I ended up getting knocked out in 5th as I moved all in for T6500 (blinds T1000-T2000) with 88. Tourist called immediately with A,3o as if it were gold. It was! He spiked an ace.
I waited all night for that hand! LOL
Our memories of this hand are very different, and I feel confident that I'm correct about the details, though if not, it wouldn't be the first time my memory failed me.
> First, I was never the chipleader at any point > during this tourney. I said TABLE chip leader. I have no idea how you ranked against stacks from the other tables.
> Second, I put Greg on exactly what he raised with. > So my 77 is better than 50/50. Barely. If you put me on 2 big overcards, then you're barely ahead when you're right. When you're wrong, you're way behind.
> I honestly don't remember another caller in the hand > b4 me. But if there was I must have ruled him out of > having any real hand here. There was definitely another caller, who went all-in, and who is a semi-regular and known to play tight. And, even if he has no real hand, all he needs is 1 or 2 unique overcards to kill your win rate. If he had held J8o, he's the last guy you want to add to the mix.
> I had a reasonable amount of chips so my risk was > nil. You were risking almost T1000, and no matter how big your stack is, when we're still far from the money, that's chips that you don't want to invest other than wisely.
> And most important, tourist is on my left and I know > he's calling (got the chips in his hand). Thought > seriously about moving all-in here preflop but > afraid he might dump the hand. As I recall, he actually thought about it for a while before calling. I don't remember him holding or not holding his chips. Anyway, with 77 and lots of money in preflop, why do you want to play for a sidepot against a total calling station? There is no hand he holds against which you're a big favorite except for underpairs, and against a lot of garbagey hands he's going to play, you're almost tied (e.g., K8, Q9, J8, etc.). I don't see you having any significant edge over this guy in this spot, so it seems that you're gambling at a disadvantage here.
> I wanted to pick up the side pot against him. ( He > had more chips than Greg is indicating as I > remember. No. This pot was definitely all-in preflop in my memory. And if I'm wrong about that, there is no way he had any significant amount extra. As I recall, you won a little bitty sidepot that represented beating me even though you lost to this guy's T4o.
> I don't think this was a bad call at all. As I > remember, this hand was won by rag cards yet I made > money on the hand. Again, all I recall is you winning a tiny sidepot. I believe I had everyone else covered, by I only covered the novice by T40 or some such amount, so you won the T80 sidepot between you and me.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You should get about $1400. You're playing for around $500 (the difference between the $1300 second prize which you're guaranteed) and the $1800 first prize. Since you have 20% of the chips, you should get 20% of the $500, or $100 more than the $1300 you're guaranteed. Yes, I rounded off. Sue me.
You shouldn't make a deal! Against a tourist who has had a great run of cards and you survived, being a 4to 1 chip underdog is no big deal. So what if you lose, you miss out on a hundred bucks. Beating the tourist and finishing first is a great confidence booster and you learn how to play short chipped heads up. The upside in money and winning, is worth much more than the hundred you get for the deal. Stick out, and win the tournament, you probably induce the tourist into a bad play and have it over quickly.
After 115 single table tournaments on Paradise, I'm ahead by .179 buy-ins per tourney: 19 1sts, 9 2nds, 13 3rds, and 74 busts. My questions are, first, what is the likelyhood that I am actually able to beat the tourneys? Second, what would be my rough bankroll requirements with, say, only a 5% chance of going broke? I'm suspect there's a fair amount of variance involved because after my first 50 tourneys or so I was ahead by about .4 buy-ins per tourney, so I've really only broken even over the last 50, and I don't really feel like I've been playing worse, and the fields really aren't all that much tougher now than before.
Hi,
I have just run some simulations based on the distribution of results you give. I have run them based both on the structure of the $5 Paradise tournaments, with their 20% entry fee, and the $10-$50 ones with the 10% entry fee.
I ran 10,000 players with the distribution of results you give above through a career of 10,000 tournaments.
Bearing in mind that I wrote the program to do this in a few minutes and it might be completely wrong, the news looks quite okay for you.
For the $5 tournaments:
Everybody was an overall winner, rangind from 0.013 to 0.16 buyins per tournament.
The biggest bankroll requirement was 240 buyins, and to have a 5% chance of staying afloat, 60 buyins were required.
For the $10-$50 tournaments:
Everybody was an overall winner, ranging from 0.11 to 0.25 buyins per tournament.
The biggest bankroll requirement was 93 buyins. To have a 5% chance of not going broke, only 27 buyins were required.
So in summary: you are a winning player! 30 buyins should suffice, and stay away from the $5 tournaments!
Cheers,
Guy.
will it be well attended? will their limiting it to 300 players turn people off? will there be satellites since they may sell out before starting date?
You can get info from the tournament director calling 1-800-303-7463 ask for extension 5760.
I just want to put this out there to see what kind of input I can get into what I may be missing or not doing in my tournament play. I feel I am ready to break out into an excellent tourney player but have trouble with something. It seems that I always get to the final table or into the money at about average or slightly below in chips. I have made 4 final tables in my last 10 tourneys and made the money an additional two times (All No-limit Holdem, $100 and above buyins). Everytime, I seemed short stacked. My highest finish was 3rd when making a 5-way deal. And even then I was third in chips (hence third place) and not really dominating. I am just wondering why? Is there a reason or is just so happened to be how things have played out? I seem to always be there squeaking into the standings. I was never the dominant chip leader able to run over a final table or get to the money with a very large stack. I am always worried about the blinds getting me out or at least forcing me into hands knowing I won't last a few more times around. I do think I play tourneys pretty tight and am a very tough player and come to win. Am I not taking enough chances later in the tourney? Am I not adjusting my standards later in the tourney by switching gears and possibly playing looser? Are draws better in the early or later stages? I was playing against Bonetti the other week at the Orleans open (I took 23rd - In the money). And it seems he is able to build and build a stack. Especially in the later stages, he seems to be raising alot more hands and I am thinking he is bluffing more later and raising more with hands he wouldn't even play early in the tourney but decent enough if he gets played with. I doubt he is in there making moves with 7-2o and stuff.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Are any books worthy of reading for general concepts? Or is this just my style and nothing wrong with it as there are different styles. I heard Seed is very aggressive from the get go and doesn't place much in tourneys, but when he gets chips, he usually wins it or comes close. Others are more consistent.
Thanks in advance
Budman
Budman - IMHO you're not lacking anything. For me there are two ways to play in tournaments. One way gets me to the final table often, but with a small stack and a correspondingly small chance at the big money. The other way gets me to the final table less often, but with a bigger stack and a correspondingly greater chance at the big money.
Just my opinion.
Buzz
Budman,
I have had similar problems. The majority of tournies I have won I was not the chip leader going into the final table. I rarely have had a monster stack going into the final table. So I am also working on some of the same issues as you. Here are some things I try to do for NL.
Stealing is a critical part in a NL tourney. As the limits move up steal when given the opportunity.
Make your move before your stack gets desperate. If you get below 3xBB you have almost no chance to steal or raise without being called. Therefore you need to find a hand and go for it before you get to 3x or 4x. Make sure you know when the blinds are moving up. A 6x stack becomes a 3x stack if the blinds double.
Watch how the table is playing. Normally as you get close to the money several players will tighten up trying to make the money. Don't be afraid of pushing the edges at this point.
Certainly being aggressive is important. Push your good hands and try to get the most out of them.
Ken Poklitar
I agree with Ken. Steal frequently late in events, people are often afraid to call for a large percentage of their stack.
Stay away from draws late. Occasionally play them early in event--but only BIG draws.
As for Bonetti-- Dont think is isnt raising with 7-2. he is. I was against him with 3 tables to go at an Orleans event (second chance) a few years ago. I had just lost a big pot in a BB/SB hand and was down to just a few chips in the SB.
Bonetti's button he raised, I had KK in the SB I re-raised all in--he called. board comes: J97-2-6. he says "What ya got kid?" I turn over KK, he says "thats no good" and turns over 6-2. I apoligized and said it was my fault--when the great John Bonetti raised my blind KK should have hit the muck!!! He looked at me stunned and then we both laughed.
On another occassion, I raised UTG in a NL satellite with 99. He moved in on me from the BB. He had moved in 3 or 4 times before and when nobody called he flipped over 7-2, 8-2, and 6-2. This time I thought awhile. I called. He had AA. IGHN.
In short you are doing nothing wrong, Bonetti is a great player, just because he is playing better then you are is NOTHING to be ashamed of.
in Tom McEvoy's book on Tournament Poker, he says "middle rounds are the heart and soul of the tournament-time when you have opportunity to accumulate enough chips to go the distance, to survive to the late rounds with good chips rather than in a state of chip depletion=="
thus it would appear that this is the place to be most aggressive.
about Bonetti---played with him for many years in Houston (his home) before he made a name in tournament world---everybody was glad to see Johnny show up for the game because he just couldn't resist bluffing---and he is STILL very welcome in those games! But I also need to tell one more thing about him--away from the poker table, very nice guy, very generous. Jim
It is the late stages of a NLHE tournament and the blinds are currently 500-1000. There are 7 players left from 30 starters and the tournament pays 3 prizes. There is approximately 55K in chips in play.
In the hand in question, mega chip leader (who is a calling station and a terrible player who has hit a hot streak during the tournament) is in the SB. Normal player in the BB. Early position (another fairly normal player) goes all in for about T6500 preflop. All fold to the button, who folds. BB then folds out of turn while SB (chip leader calling station) is preparing to call. Dealer sees BB muck, assumes all have mucked and mucks the raisers hand. SB points out he still has cards and wants to call (definitely not an angle as SB would call with any two here). Dealer can be mildly excused as SB was in seat 1 and dealer's view of SB's cards was likely obscured by both the awkward position of seat 1 to the dealer and SB's giant chip stacks.
What is the proper ruling?
In the actual situation, the floorman decided that it was raiser's responsibility to protect his hand and declared that since it had been mucked, it was dead, and awarded the pot to SB.
I don't like this ruling, but I cannot think of a reasonable way to handle the situation either (I was not personally involved in this situation either way).
thats the letter of the law. in the spirit of the law you must give the raiser his hand back or his money back. there was no call before the hand was mucked. yes you do have to protect your hand and i always side with this. but its almost impossible to protect it from someone reaching over and grabbing it and thats not what is meant by having to protect your hand.
best I ever saw in this situation--
floorman spoke to player who still had cards saying " sir I am required to rule the other hand dead, but as you know it was not his fault, and in some cases a player in you position can decide to give back his money, do you wish to do this"
he did and we had a happy ending
several years ago I lost a pot of few thousand because of this, and now ALLWAYS put chips on my hand. Jim
Jim i hate this as this puts the heat on the player to give the money over. id say to the floorman that said this to me. why dont you give it out of your pocket as its your job and the casinos reputation you are representing or are you too cheap to do this.
I recently heard that the World Poker Open @Tunica is being moved from March to January. The World Poker Challenge that was such a success in Reno this January(Where I won an event and finished 12th in the other one I entered) is also schedule in January. This will hurt the action at both places but which venue will do better and why are they competing with each other? Thanks.
Russ
Russ, I have wondered the same thing????
Only thing I can figure is that the two hotels in Tunica think they need Jan business much more...to the point that they will settle for a smaller turnout.
as to what will happen...guess it will boil down to proximity..those closer to Reno will go there and those closer to Tunica will go there.
both had such success that both may still do OK, but a lot of players are going to be disappointed by this competing times. Jim
having seen such few comments about the August trnmnt at Horseshoe, I am wondering how well attended it will be???
also the fact that they will limit # of players to 300 may discourage some??
what are your thoughts on this one?
I'm going. Jim
My guess is the Tunica tournament will put the Reno tournament out of business. They won't be able to compete with Jack Binion and the following that he has. Furthermore, if I remember didn't the Reno tournament have a well known famous player host each event. I suspect tht most of them will be in Tunica.
The reason why this is done is simply that the casino is looking to add business at a slow time of year. So in this sense January dates when it is cold are prime dates for a poker tournament.
I know I'll be in Reno even though Tunica is closer. I'm not going to Tunica in August Jim because of other engagements, but I hope Mason is wrong about Tunica putting Reno out. I really like both Tournaments though.
Russ
you may be right Mason, Jack does have a lot of friends in poker world. but Reno was such a smash hit last time seems a lot of folks will want to go back.
could be that Jack may dominate, but Reno may live.
situation is understandable, but too bad there is a conflict. lol Jim
I think the only reason why the Reno tournament did so well was because they cancelled the Carnivale of Poker in Vegas. I would much rather go to Vegas for a tournament than Reno. The problem with the Reno tournament is the location. The Hilton is isolated from the rest of town, and you need to rent a car if you wanted to go to other places.
Good Luck
Mark
Since, they are having both events at the same time I decided to not go to either of them. I believe by scheduling them at the same time the turnouts will be low, so the prize pools will be much smaller.
Good Luck
Mark
I'll be in Reno. Mainly because it's closer and it's going to be non-smoking. Last time I was in Tunica, the smoke was so bad I couldn't stand it.
JohnnyD
I'm wondering if the TOC can now be considered a flop. Because of work being done in my house, I didn't make it over there this year to even look, so I can't say for sure. But I remember the games at The Bellagio filling up (and being great) two years ago. Last year the tourney seemed to have virtually no affect, and the same seems to be true in my opinion this year.
Furthermore, this year there were preliminary TOC tournaments. The buyin on these events was $500 plus $50 juice (10 percent) plus another 3 percent withheld for tips. This seems extremely high to me and my guess is that fees at this level will begin to turn many players off.
But perhaps the most telling statistic of all is that (if my memory is correct) over 600 entrants two years ago, over 450 last year, and I heard only 402 this year. (Is 402 the correct number?) If that's the case it certainly isn't growing.
This brings up another general point. I remember when Las Vegas poker tournaments were a good deat for the players. Comps were liberal, there were lots of games, and the rakes were reasonable. The house made money because they increased their business even if their margins were a little lower.
But now we are seeing something different. Tournaments are being run by independent contractors producing a middle man who also needs to show a profit. In these situations, the house doesn't seem to be as generous as they once were and the tournament operators seem to be increasing their fees to cover their end, and the players get squeezed more. (By the way, I want to point out that I have no inside information with the above.)
I'm curious what some of you might think, especially those of you who played in the TOC. Do I have it right, or will this become the great event in poker which I believe was their original intention.
in the year before the 1st year of TOC tournament, at the Orleans Open the tournament winners received a payouy reduced by the amonut of the buy in for the 1st year TOC.
I won a tournament that year, and was not exactly pleased with this, but was told that after approx six months I could get refund directly from TOC. I haven't played stud in years, so was not too interested in new format...but to make a long story short, Mike talked me into playing (sure enough the stud got me out}.
anyway part of the success which they have had is due to tie in with the Orleans event. Since Mike is out and they have lost approx one third of original number of players it seem rather certain that they are not headed for greatness, and may be headed for the boneyard.
if they encounter competition, as in Reno vsTunica, then I woud say they are history. Jim
Mason,
After my experience last year at the Orleans I decided not to go. They are stingy on the comps compared to what you get from Binions in Tunica or Las Vegas.
For example, for every super-satellite I played at Binions in Vegas this year I was comped for complete meals at either the coffee shop or the players buffet. This was a value of $10 to $15. Since, the super-satellite cost $200 plus $25 entry fee, I was basically paying just $10 to $15 to the casino for playing.
At the Orleans, last year I could only get $5 comps. So, I believe the players are not getting as good as a deal as they should.
From the results for the Orleans Open, I see that it is down again this year. Furthermore, I agree with you that the juice is too high and is not a good deal for players as compared to previous years.
Good Luck
Mark
I played in the event and wouldn't call it a flop. The concept is good and if promoted better it could be a big success. From what I could see and what I heard there are some personality conflicts in play here. I've never met Chuck Humphrey, although I've seen him at many events, and have no feelings one way or the other about him, but he doesn't seem to be able to rally the poker community around this event. And you, Mason, never miss an opportunity to knock tournaments in general. You are certainly not supportive of any of them. I appreciate your right to prefer live poker over tournaments, but many of us prefer tournaments. I believe there's lots that can be done to promote this better, but I don't think that's what you really want.
JohnnyD
"And you, Mason, never miss an opportunity to knock tournaments in general."
You're right, I'm generally not a fan of tournaments. But that's not because I think that there is something wrong with tournaments in general, it more because I don't like the way they are promoted and presented. I think the example I gave above is representative of what's happening, not the exception.
while I may agree with you about fees, etc I must really disagree with not being a fan of tournaments...you should be because they help YOU make money!
surely you must see that tournaments contribute to the increased interest and growth in poker....which contributes to the success of 2+2.
yes, I like to participate. not only are they an interesting form of poker, they have become somewhat of a social thing too.
but bottom line to you, Mason, is that they are good for business and you should become a supporter...a fan. I say all this with your best interest in mind. regards, Jim
I am a supporter/fan. For example, I have stated (and written) on many occasions that the WSOP is a great event that has done much for poker. But I see many of these new events going down a path that I believe will be detrimental for poker mostly for the reasons that I have given above. The time seems to have passed when most of these tournaments were a good deal for poker players. I wish it would return to the way it used to be.
I'm not so sure that the TOC has to be a good deal for poker players -- but it does have to be an important event for poker players. Otherwise, it will become just another (optional) tournament. Irrelevancy looms.
I participated in the first four days of the tournaments staged by the Orleans prior to the TOC tournaments. I play many tournaments in Arizona and have always wondered whether the cut taken by the house was fair. Now I know that our local casinos, quick-handed though they may be with the rake in live-action, are a much better deal for tournaments.
At the Orleans tournaments with a buy-in of $125, the house took $25 for "administration," another 3% for dealer tips and $2000 from the prize pool to pay for the TOC entry. This amounted to more than 25% of the prize pool that all of the players but one were playing for.
Contrast these numbers with the weekly tournaments at Gila River where the house takes a $5 fee from a $55 buy-in, but then adds $250 per table to the prize pool.
I am not experienced enough to contrast the Orleans with other casinos, but I felt their cut was excessive.
For what it's worth.
I don't think it's fair to count the $2000 in the cut. This was part of the first place prize, and if you were unable to attend the TOC it was refundable.
Andy.
I played this year, last year, and was at the Orleans right up until the start of the first TOC.
I think the tourney itself is doing fine in terms of how they're handling the game/rules/etc. It is unfortunate that attendance is decreasing, and I'm not sure why that is.
However, the real problem I saw was the side games this year. Last year and the year before, there were great side games, with limits from low to high and lots of action everywhere. This year the selection of limits to play at was, er, limited. With the exception of a single short-handed game of Omaha8 and triple draw lowball, the highest limit game was 50-100 stud8. The next highest game after this was 20-40 HE and Omaha8 (separate games). There was no 30-60, 40-80, 50-100 (for other than stud8), 75-150, or higher. There was a 5,5,10 blind PL HE/Omaha game that was very good, but it didn't go on Friday or Saturday. In fact, by Saturday, the biggest game was a single 20-40 HE game, and by Sunday there was nothing over 10-20. In fact, there were only a handful of games going total. That is why I ended up at the Bellagio for Saturday afternoon/evening and all day Sunday. And the Bellagio was totally full both times (but no NL/PL, sad to say).
Anyway, for whatever reason attendance is down, and I don't know why or what they should do to turn that trend around. If I were Chuck I would be doing everything I could do to promote internet tournaments where the winner is both qualified and paid with an entry into the TOC. Get 200-500 guys into that way, and the pros will show up in droves to win their money (since most of the internet-only players won't be strong players in this tourney).
Since I only get to travel once and maybe twice a year for poker, I will probably only be doing the WSOP in the future.
Oh, I do have one theory. I noticed that there were very few Europeans here this year, whereas there were many of them present the first and second years. I suspect that with the phenomenal growth of poker tourneys in Europe lately, they no longer need to come to America to get a full helping of this form of entertainment, and are probably limiting themselves to just the WSOP in their travels as well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I just mentioned this on RGP but one of the reasons that attendance is down is that the TOC is probably not getting any piece of the drop from the side games. This is something that tournament operators were able to get years ago from casinos. With a piece of the drop, they don't have to charge so much juice and can be more generous with comps. Thus tournaments, from a players point of view, are not as good as they once were.
Another reason for the drop that I've heard from some people is that in the first year many non-pros saw this as an opportunity to play a big time tournament against the top pros for only $1,500 (I believe that was the first year cost). They did and now they can say they've done it and no longer have the need.
Prior to this year, I heard lots of players talking about the TOC all year. And the casinos were promoting it. But leading up to this year's I didn't hear much.
And to add to what Mason said, not only does Chuck need to make a profit, but now he has PokerPages doing his administration and that adds another layer of profit that needs to be made.
I agree with Greg about getting attendance through the internet. I would never miss another one if it was full of players who qualified playing on internet sites.
One more point about promotion. I saw Team Japan with their jackets and spirit. There were no such groups from the US. Why doesn't 2+2 have a team. Why not a Bay101 team, Foxwoods Team, etc. I think its all in the promotion, or lack thereof.
JohnnyD
"Why doesn't 2+2 have a team."
Actually, we have no communication with the people who run the TOC and both Humphrey's and Napolitano and hurled a few Internet insults at us in the past. However, your idea has merit, and if they ever are able to make this tourney a good deal for its players we just might be interested in something like this. This could happen if they could get a piece of that elusive drop or get that sponsorship that they use to talk about.
This brings up another point. I actually feel that Las Vegas is the wrong place to hold this tournament. That's because with the exception of the WSOP the major LV tournaments are no longer with us. I put a post up last year listing 13 former major LV tourneys. Of course new ones are popping up all the time.
Again, in my opinion, it goes back to can the operators show a profit at a reasonable cost. I'm not on the inside to their numbers, but my guess is that they can't unless they pass high expenses on to their customers. This in turn should (again in my opinion) slowly strangle tournament poker, and that's a real shame.
By the way, here are the numbers on this year's event. There were 402 players x $2,000 to play equals a total of $804,000. A total of $748,600 was paid out in prize money, leaving a diference of $55,400 (or $137 per player). The make up of the $55,400 is as follows:
$60,300+ ($150 per player for entry fee) $20,100+ ($50 per player for tip pool) $25,000- (added to prize pool by sponsors) $55,500 (NET)
JohnnyD
I did my part for the 2+2 team unity by busting that crazy fish Sklansky. He got the last laugh though when he showed me his royalty check. $1327 a quarter for a back catalog of 31 books makes me wonder why I even bother playing this game and don't move straight into guruhood.
JG
test
". I noticed that there were very few Europeans here this year, whereas there were many of them present the first and second years. I suspect that with the phenomenal growth of poker tourneys in Europe lately, they no longer need to come to America to get a full helping of this form of entertainment, and are probably limiting themselves to just the WSOP in their travels as well"
I'm sure this is correct. There are a lot of tournaments in Europe with much weaker fields and decent prize money. You get the odd awkward so-and-so who just prefers America as a holiday venue to continental Europe :-), but that's the exception rather than the rule.
Plus, as I understand it, most of the Europeans who came got their fingers burned at the WSOP this year :-)
Andy.
The juice is reduced. It is absolutely insane!
100+25 ?!?
200+30 !?!
It's just offensive. It's the only reason I didn't go, and will continue to skip it unless they lower the juice.
Please join me!
If we are complacent, 25% juice could easily become the norm!
I cleared $3000 at this tournament. If I had stayed at home to protest about $10 on the entrance fees, wouldn't that be cutting off my nose to spite my face ?
Andy.
Since I got back I have been holding on to my cards and looking to my left for tells until the action is on me. Today I was playing in a biggish ($300) tournament when I was astonished to see that a good player who has won a lot of money showed a very clear tell. When the tell was present it was a reasonably good indicator that he was going to play. In its absence it was a CAST IRON CERTAINTY that he would fold. With him on my immediate left I made/saved at least 500 chips just by watching him and acting accordingly. The rest of the table, including one of the top five money-winners in Europe, seemed completely oblivious. Thanks to those on the Forum who clued me in to this, and to John Fox who goes into some detail in his awesome book. I think the trip to Vegas was worth it just to pick that book up !
NB if anyone is wondering why I am on the Internet while the tournament is still going on, what with my great opponent-reading skills, don't make me tell you my bad beat stories :-).
Andy.
Andy - what's the title of this book?
Thanks,
mike cunningham
It goes by the slightly sensationalist title of "Play Poker, Quit Work and Sleep Till Noon". Once you get past that it is awesome !
Andy.
I was in a tournment of HE today . We startr with 54 players and we are down to 4 ,1st 45% , 2nd 25% , 3rd 15% , 4th 10% , 5th 5% . Aftertought , I think I have made a bad move in that hand , blinds are 200 and 400 and we play NoLimit . UTG has T900 , button has T5900 , SB has 6500 and I have 6100 . They are very loose and passive , they make terrible call without to consider the odds . My NL experience is very small but they are very weak . So in that hand , I am dealt AKoff . UTG fold , and button make it 1200 , SB fold and I put button all-in , I have 200 left , he calls without hesitation .I think that I should have just call and don't putt one more tournment chip in that pot without there is an ace or a king. I think that I should wait for a hand allready made because I know that they will make terrible call The result ? ...board came all babies but T high I show my AK and he mucks .
AK is one of the toughest hands to play in NL because it's bascially a drawing hand. I don't know how many times I've been knocked out of a tourney with AK or AQ against a small pocket pair. However, it's still a great hand to get when you're in a tourney. It's the nut no-pair and usually does quite well when heads-up. I personally don't mind going all-in with it because you're going to be a big favorite against any other Ax or no-pair hand and you're at worst a slight underdog against any pocket pair queens or lower. The only hands that have you dominated are AA and KK. Late in a tourney and heads-up, AK is a great premium hand. You can't just muck your hands until you get a pocket pair.
In regards to your play, I think you played the hand fine. I'd rather go all-in than to just call in this situation. Calling could be ok sometimes, but what are you going to do when you miss the flop (like in this situation)? If you check and your opponent bets, are you ready to fold? In this situation, I don't want to think too much about getting bluffed out. I'd rather just go for broke. I think you may be giving your opponents too much credit here. Sounds like your opponent had Ax.
Anyways, just my two cents. Good luck and play aggressively with that AK! By the way, did you win the tournament?
Yes I did
Congrats JP!
I would have just called, basically for 2 reason.
First, three of you all have plenty of chips compared to the player with T900. It could be worth it to wait until he busts to go full spead against a big stack.
Second, and this is the most important, the value of reraising with AK preflop lies when you feel there is a good chance your opponent will throw it away preflop (it is a drawing hand). Given the info you gave us about the other player, this is not likely to happen. Plus there is your position. I would only flat call and go with it if an ace or king flops, or if you get a good read about your opponent.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
FWIW I think you played it fine.
"AK is a drawing hand". I keep hearing this and with deep money compared to the ante this may well be the case if a lot of money goes in pre-flop.
Short-handed with large blinds, however, when a normal re-raise puts you or your opponent all-in, it's a great hand. I'm very happy to put it all in and if your opponent does not have a pair then _he_ has the drawing hand because you are well ahead.
If he does have a pair (less than KK) then he is ahead right now - big deal. By the end of the hand it's as close to 50-50 as makes no difference. The term "drawing hand" is meaningless in this case.
Andy.
"The term "drawing hand" is meaningless in this case. "
yes and no. IMO.
I agree it is overused (oops! I used it myself in my post...) but I don't think it's meaningless. Sure, unless he has AA or KK he is 50:50 or better to end-up with the best hand at the river but that doesn't mean he should go ahead with it. I mean, there's no way (by his description) the guy is laying it down preflop. Also, with calling stations like that I'd prefer to battle them with a bigger edge. I know, it's at the end of the tournament but these edges do come up, especially postflop. When I feel I can outplay my opponents postflop, I cut down on these reraises preflop a lot, unless I have to (when I'm short-stacked). I feel the 3:2, 11:10 edge I'd have preflop will increase postflop. So why commit preflop?
Also, the fourth player is short-stacked and may very well bust out before him so he gains $EV by not risking it here preflop with AK. I would feel bad busting against JTs when I could demolish my opponents later on with a bigger edge.
Just my opinion,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
I take your points but I think this is too big an edge to pass up. A lot can happen very quickly 4-handed and I'm not sure you can guarantee you will find a better spot soon. You might think you can "outplay" your opponent later but if you pass AK and your opponent does not have a pair (and he won't the majority of the time), then who is outplaying who right now ?
Andy.
I'm not saying passing, hell no!
I'm just saying he could have called and moved on the flop with a good flop or a good read instead of reraising all-in preflop.
Possibly, although we are out of position here. It is true that some players will automatically call a pre-flop but will drop when they miss the flop, bless 'em, so if you are sure your opponent will do this it _might_ be worth taking the risk.
Andy.
Any suggestions on how a single table (winner takes all) satellite should be played differently to a regular percentage-payback tournament??
What are the typical mistakes?
How do you take advantage of them?
(I'm asking about both limit and no-limit holdem.)
In a cash game, you try to win chips and/or avoid losing chips. Your only goal is to increase your chip total as effectively as possible. In a satellite, this is also true. You should play every hand pretty much how you would in a ring game, everything else being the same. Similarly, throughout the early and middle stages of a tourney, you should play to accumulate chips.
I've seen so many players who are playing survival poker when they've got a small stack in a satellite, and it's a mistake. If they think I'm going to save the entry fee with them when it's heads-up and I've got a 5:1 chip lead, they're dreaming.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
No Limit Holdem Strategy:
Some players like to only play premium cards. But you need to mix up your play so your opponents can't put you on a hand too easily. Any specific suggestions on how to do this??
Sometimes play non-premium cards.
Really. That's it.
BTW, small pocket pairs, small suited-connectors, etc., are playable under certain circumstances, and when they hit the board, the board can be very unscary. Thus, your deception can be built in by playing 22, 67s, etc., not by playing 92o.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Two Plus Two Publishing
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Gambling Theory and Strategy
Tournaments
Re: No Limit Holdem Strategy.
Posted By: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) BTW, small pocket pairs, small suited-connectors, etc., are playable under certain circumstances, and when they hit the board, the board can be very unscary. Thus, your deception can be built in by playing 22, 67s, etc., not by playing 92o.
So would you call with these hands, hope for many callers (if they are not already in there) and fold to a substantial raise?? Presumably you should occasionally also just call with some premium hands (and reraise if possible)?
generally you will call with these hands when you are in late position in an unraised pot.
also, don't get to thinking that this is a BAD play. you don't want to over do it, but it is correct to play from time to time, yau may even win some very large pots with such cards, and of course if flop does not fit, then it is easy to muck.
this is not a suggestion, but you will even see a player call on pure crap cards, then when he folds after flop he will make a point to show the table what he played.....advertising.
to be honest I sort of have a weakness for things like suited 7,8......hope you don't do likewise!!! Jim
``generally you will call with these hands when you are in late position in an unraised pot.''
What type of hands are the early-mid limpers in with? I know in limit HE, at a loose passive table, small-mid pairs and suited connectors are good limping hands in early position, but does type of multiway limping occur a lot in NLHE? Is limping contagious? Is it a mtter of having a very good line on likely action with early position choices? Or are these trouble hands in early position no matter what?
there is such a variety of playing styles that early-mid limpers could have anything--as game progress you will learn type of hands they will call with
limping is somewhat contagious but not to same extent as in limit
in a sense they are not trouble hands since they are so easy to get away from after the flop
some players do call with these hands in early position but problem is you may get raised --and if it is small you are tempted to add $$ on a weak hand
you didn't ask, but I think you will like P/L better than N/L. Jim
I thought I was on High Stakes forum rather that Tournaments!!!!! forget most of what I said....you will mostly see big cards and pairs, very little multi-limping. sorry, now I must hurry to pokerpages.com tournament...see you later Jim
It all depends on your stack size in relation to the current bet as well ass your opponents stack sizes.
In the local NLHE tournament here.. we begin with $200 in chips and we start with a $5 blind bet. You can potentialy get 40:1 on your $5 limp on the first hand of the tournament even when the action ends up heads-up.
You want reasonable assurance that your opponent can and will put his whole stack in even after you have him drawing dead or needing runner runner.
And if he is the type who will only very seldomly stick his whole stack in to defend his hand.. this looks like an easy pot to "pick up".
Most players are too loose. Some are too tight. Very few react correctly.. and nobody reacts correctly 100% of the time.
Know thy opponent..
(I am not recommending "picking up" pots in the early stages of a tournament.. these chips mean as close to nothing as to make no odds.. the early stages are for getting lucky in large multiway and developing an image to be used later to "pick up" pots or to get paid off when you REALLY need to win some chips)
I would stress that "non-premium" hands means suited connectors or small pairs and the like. It doesn't mean sub-raising hands like AJ, KT, QJ which are horrible to play in early position unless you're in a really soft game (which I am a lot to be fair :-)).
Andy.
Posted by: Jellow (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Monday, 30 July 2001, at 2:06 p.m.
Posted by: Dirk(MildManneredMathMan) (vertigan@math.lsu.edu)
Posted on: Monday, 30 July 2001, at 2:20 p.m.
Posted by: Jellow (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Monday, 30 July 2001, at 2:51 p.m.
Posted by: Jellow (jbrowder@totalzone.com)
Posted on: Monday, 30 July 2001, at 3:08 p.m.
Posted by: Joe in Connecticut
Posted on: Monday, 30 July 2001, at 3:11 p.m.
Posted by: Andy Ward (andy@pokersoft.co.uk)
Posted on: Monday, 30 July 2001, at 5:11 p.m.
When you are one out of the money, what can you play? And at each point where I had to make a decision in the following hand, I'm wondering if there were better choices to be made, given the one out of money status of the game... so I'll take any and all suggestions for each juncture of the hand. This may have been a no-brainer, but not for moi...
Situation:
7stud 8 tourney. One player away from everyone making the money. Tables are going hand to hand
Ante is 1/6 small bet, force bet is 1/3 small bet. So, preflop, pot doesn't even equal the small bet.
A) With this low of an ante-to-initial small bet ratio, is there any reason not to play very tightly? How few bets in your stack would you have to have to loosen up?
There are only two bubble players at the other tables, they have been all in several times (and escaped, dammit) and have slightly fewer chips than I do. I've been dumping hands left and right (especially if I hear an all-in announcement beforehand) that I would raise or call with in any other situation... obviously I was trying to let them bust out first
I am ranging between 1 1/2 and 3 small bets' worth of chips during this battle.
B) are there ANY hands that I can play in this situation, or do I grimly try to outlast the other bubble-dwellers and capture some prize money? C) What hands CAN i play? Highest on-board trips? Any trips? Highest pair showing? low straight flush draw? three card 7-low, or 6-low, or only wheel draw? D) How many bets do I have to have available before I can play more hands from #C
I have 1 1/2 small bets after I get my next hand. Q raises the opener, completing to a full small bet.
E) Can I call this bet? With what hands from #C above? F) Are there any hands I should raise all-in with? Or do I save the ante/forced bet amount that I would have left if I just call?
I have trip 10s. G) Do I want the original bring in out or in? Does it matter if she has a low card up? Does it matter if there is any possible 3-card low showing on the table? H) Is getting knocked out enough of a reason not to raise all-in?
I) Would you fold the trips on fourth street to any card for your oppenent(s), to retain 1/2 small bet (or an ante plus bring-in) and a chance to possibly outlast the other bubble players, who would then all have more chips than I would?
I raise all-in (as if that wasn't foreshadowed from the beginning). Bring-in drops with a 9 showing, Q calls. He gets another Queen on 4th street, I get nothing and I'm out one away from the money and a small profit (and probably more, with the chip "lead" I would have had over the other bubble player)
J) If I hadn't raised, retaining 1/2 small bet, should I have called all-in what was probably trips Queens?
I probably would have called on 4th, hoping that the raiser had queens-up instead (he had been aggressive about betting/raising their hands into weak boards, especially if he had anything decent at all... because he had the chips to attack with) and not seeing any future chance with what could have been 3 quick blind-out hands.
Although nothing I did would have changed the cards (the Queen catch wasn't changing.... the only chance was to outdraw him with a full house or better) and I certainly don't blame the queens for raising or calling my all-in (cheap chips = no damage), I've debated with myself if I should have played this at all differently.
Since tournaments and "rational" play are mutually exclusive at the later levels, ESPECIALLY one out of the money, I was wondering if there were better plays in practice... so I can use them in future tournaments if I get on the bubble again.
Thanks for the help, Easy E
This is all a bit involved. If you even think about folding trips in 7C8OB with a low stack one out of the money then your strategy is hopelessly skewed, stick to cash games.
Look for situations to get your money into the pot first, always as the raiser, and give yourself two chances to win - one when everyone folds and one when your hand stands up or draws out.
Some people advocate surviving till the money but I disagree, aggressive play can reap big rewards here. If you are short-stacked then it's better not to lay down any total bluffs (you are too likely to be called) but look for a spot where you have two chances to win (think of it as a semi-bluff) and go for it.
You should however be playing very tight when there is a raise in front of you, even if you think the guy is probably bluffing you should be able to beat what he is representing (until you pick up the necessary experience).
The only specific 7C8OB advice I would give you is respect the power of the Ace, pump it when you get one, dump it when your opponent gets one (a lot of the time).
Andy.
Andy While I agree with most of what you said, and I didn't feel at the time that I had much choice, the one-out-of-money aspect factor is what made me think to question possible strategy.
UNLIKE a ring game (when I would be cursing my lack of money, rather than thinking about ANY chance of folding trips), it seems to me that even the great hands become secondary to getting a return on many hours of play, ESPECIALLY when very short-stacked.
Balancing that against trying to accumulate some more chips, to give me a ghost of a chance of advancing even higher (assuming my trips would hold up), is what made me question a call and certainly the all-in raise.
And answer me this: If you just called, rather than raised (to keep the bring in 9 in as well), and the queens pair up on fourth, would you ever fold? Remember, it's 2-1 that, raiser holding a pair, that the pair matches the upcard... which means fourth street screwed me.
And, I was pretty sure the second Q DID give him trips rather than at least two pair, a fact he confirmed soon afterwards (before the end of the hand).
And, since raising 1/2 small bet is probably not folding ANY comfortably big stack who raised... the raise only gets me into an all-or-nothing situation.
If there is no semi-bluff possibility (you'll get called no matter WHAT the bigger stack holds, unless total dreck, just on the chance that you'll get knocked out and insure the money for everyone else), then you only have the best-hand portion to win with... making a semi-bluff pointless, correct?
Again, I agreed with you obviously then on the trips - in fact, I was planning on raising all-in even before the Queen raised, so I didn't really think about the situation THEN as much as I did afterwards (another mistake).
And, considering it later, it wasn't the stinging results that made me reconsider whether I had made a strategic mistake, since I had the best hand at that point... it was the one-out-of-money, three on the bubble status.
How about this? Should I should have ANNOUNCED my trips when I raised all-in? If you had the two Queens after raising, would YOU fold to my 3-ante all-in reraise?
maybe i DIDN'T have a reasonable alternate choice... but we'll see who else kicks in.
I look forward to a follow-up from you... Thanks
OK. This is something that may be hard to accept but you have to do it to become a successful tournament player.
It does not matter how long you have been playing ! Think of the player you respect more than any other. TJ maybe, or the best player you know. Suppose you handed your cards to him in this spot. You would need to tell him how the other players were playing, how they perceived you (OK my analogy is falling down, he has to be disguised as you now :-)), anyway if you asked an expert what you should do, does he need to know how long you have been playing for ? Of course not. Make your decisions for maximum EV as of the now.
"If you just called, rather than raised ..." Sorry. I'd never do that in this spot. NEVER. Your thinking is a little fuzzy here anyway. I thought you wanted to survive into the money - so why do you want to let someone else into the hand who can beat you ?
"And, since raising 1/2 small bet is probably not folding ANY comfortably big stack who raised... the raise only gets me into an all-or-nothing situation". True. That's why you need to make a move _before_ your stack gets that low.
"Should I should have ANNOUNCED my trips when I raised all-in". This is unethical, and illegal in many cardrooms, and rightly so. Other players at the table (who are hoping to make the money themselves) would have genuine cause for complaint if you did this.
Hope this helps.
Andy.
Im not sure if they have gotten softer or Ive gotten better.
In a mix of $10 and $20 Ts I just posted a 9 straight money record... 1,2,2,3,3,3,1,3,1
DASHed by some schmuck who called my raise with 22 in BB with mid amount of chips, flop QQ6,a nd he bets out, I raise and he calls...of COURSE a 2 comes on turn and then J on river. Out in 4th place over that. It cant get more annoying, I will GUT that mother like a PIG later.
I see it as 2 HORRIBLE mistakes. He wasnt in danger, not "potstuck" in BB, 22 is super weak, esp against a tight ass like me. Calls a raise, and then WARs with a raiser with 22 on a QQ6 flop.
9 is impressive.
And what did you have when he has 22?
I am currently on a 6 tourney streak in Omaha hi/low on paradise. I will attempt to continue the streak later tonight.
Ken Poklitar
Hey Ken
BTW HI, i never get to say hi since I have no voice.
A had AJ suited, yes no pair, but its the action that should dictate. He didnt KNOW I didnt have a Q, and my play to this point would be condidered solid bordering on anal-tight. So calling me down, with raises with 22 is nuts.
So he had you all the way :)
Well my streak is barely alive. I placed 3rd but I was all-in with an ugly looking board. Two others battled it out with one guy all-in on the river. I didn't think I had a chance but somehow I took 1/2 of the low to survive!
And hi as well.
Ken Poklitar
This guy with the 22 proably should have checked raised the flop - when you are eigther ahead or way behind it is good to find out as early as possible.
I don't know how he was playing but any pair against 2 over cards is a fav heads up.
Seems this guy may not be as bad as you think.
BTW how did you know he didn't have a Weak Q HUH?
CrazyJim,
What's your handle on Paradise? I'm a bit worried I might have been the bozo with the 22...
Guy.
My handle is....hmmm....CrazyJim
Mighta known it.
So no, it wasn't me.
Guy.
Well, I had a streak of a different sort - 50 tourneys in a row without a 1st place. That streak is finally over, thankfully. I had some problems with my game (obviously) which I'm trying to correct, so I was wondering if you guys had any insight about the following paradise tourney hand: I have T710 after posting the (T100) small blind, and the guy on the big blind has T305 after posting the T200 blind. There are 4 players left (which means we are 1 off the money). I'm dealt A6o, and it's folded to me. I raise the blind, hoping to steal, thinking that unless he has a better ace I'll have a good shot of knocking him out should he call, and even if he does win, I'll still have T305 left which would allow me to pass the blinds again and possibly still make the money. Also, I figure this guy is more likely to defend his big blind with a weak hand than he would be to play from another position. Was this the right move? He called my raise, and the flop came up 4-4-J. Since he has T105 left, I'm thinking he'll probably call with just about anything, but happily check along with me and hope to catch a pair. Since he just called my raise and didn't re-raise all-in, I figure he has a pretty weak hand since people usually reraise all-in with just about anything decent. I bet out and he calls, I don't catch anything and he turns over J7o. Did I play this right? More importantly, was my thought process correct?
I ended up getting AJo next hand and raising all-in from the button after a fold, the small blind folded and the big blind called made a straight with 97o to knock me out in 4th. Oh well.
Thanks in advance for any help, Lenny
I would have played A6o the same way you did, given your description of the situation.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
With 4 players remaining your rasingstandards goes way down.
I would have rerasied preflop with a pair of 2's no problem!!
The flop is good as well (if you have the pair) since it makes it less likely that you got hit.
In my opinion your the schmuck if you can't let your hand go when your beaten. When he calls (or raises?) your bet on the flop your A-J shuold be mucked, easy.
Hope to see you on my table at WSOP next year.....Ill gut you like a pig.
To war with 22, is loony at best, or just plain stupid. He commited his entire stack on the flop with a pair of 2's against a preflop strong raiser....who showed nothing but awesome hands all tourny...and its just plain ailly.
Sure, I was on a steal, I had position, a slight lead in chips, but HE doesnt know that, and _I_ have position. So it was a low% gamble on his part, it worked out this one time, in the long run Im sure he's a big loser in these tournies.
He should have folded preflop, and lived to fight another day. Oh, gee, he won this time, but 9 outof 10 times his ass is grass. ANY pair 33 and up, anything with a Q, and any over cards that can hit turn or river will kock him out at 4th place. It's a totaly foolish move, made by a moron, pure and simple.
With over 250 of these paradise tournies under my belt, I'll trust my own judgement.
... why'd you try to bluff him ?
Andy.
I'm not sure I understand the sequence here, were you all-in after the raise on the flop? Was he? If not, what did you do on the turn? I think his call preflop was the right play, and QQ6 is a decent flop, since it makes it less likely he's losing right there. He bets out to test your hand in a situation where he's out of position. If you thought he should have folded against your raise on the flop, you're probably right, but if you thought he was going to fold right there against your raise, then you haven't been playing in the same tourneys I have. I don't think I've ever seen someone fold in a situation like that - even when they had to go all-in. They just say, "well, I hope I catch here", and make the crying call.
Lenny
Recent evidence of my claim that people in these tourneys will call a single raise when they've already put money in the pot as an almost automatic reaction:
We're heads up at the end of the tourney, level VIII (blinds 500-1000). I have ~T3250 in the big blind, so my opponent has ~T4750. He raises my blind with 54s, and I re-raise with 88. He calls. I'm sure what hand he could possibly have put me on that it was worth risking being left with 1500 to try and bust me, but that didn't make him fold.
Lenny
P.S. He caught a runner-runner straight after I went all-in on the flop, but that's not really the point (though it did annoy me).
Tell me about it. Idiots! Some guy goes for a steal when the blinds are 400/800. He raises, I shoot right back and reraise with AK suited. He calls anyway, which now leaves him with 1600. He ends up winning with a full boat (5's full of 2's). And his amazing hand that he had to call with, 57 offsuit. I flopped the nut flush draw, and this hand killed me. Bastards!
Crazy Jim, pocket two's is a slight favorite against AK heads up. When he bet out on the flop he probably had you on AK. Heads up, a flop like that with pocket two's is not a bad one. He played it right and the results prove it.
Final table pot limit tourney blinds are level at 500 each (going to 1000 on the next hand). I have T8000, in mid table postion dealt AhQh. UTG limps the next 3 fold, I raise maximum T2000 to push the rest of the field out and either pick up the pot (UTG is aggressive and limping indicates relative weakness)or go head to head with the limper.
The player to my left reads the script and folds, the button (chip leader but only has me covered 2to1) raises 4000 (damn !!) UTG folds. I am left with a tough decision. I call (I thought he might be stealing) two hearts fell on the flop I push my remaining 1500 in but no further improvement and I bust out to a pair of kings.
Latter in the bar it was suggested to me a better play would have been to raise the pot by 1000. The rationale being a)There is less in the pot so the button raiser could therefore reraise by less. b) Any raise would prevent anyone with low connectors limping in c)If reraised I would be more inclined to pack.
I am not entirely convinced by the argument does anyone have any thoughts?
Thanks
Ross,
I'm not very convinced by this argument that you got in the bar either. Who offered you this advice anyway? Probably someone who busted out 2 hours before you did...
You have a premium suited hand, I think you're raise BTF is definitely consistent and in line with what I would do first in. The button is your moment of pause, and you wrote that he might be stealing. You gave your best read on him that you could given the situation. The fact that he's the chip leader makes it more possible that he's stealing.
The only thing that I might have done differently was check the flop to him in the chance (however slim it may be) that he'll give you a free card instead of committing the rest of your chips. This is an extremely minor point and probably moot because he should put you in for another 1500, being pot-committed. Even so you have 12 outs for the lead(the remaining hearts and 3 aces). Just a little unfortunate that you didn't get there.
Ross, I always say, it's better to go out shootin with the type of hand that you had rather than be blinded out with something like 74 offsuit.
Best wishes, Mike
As Mike says, someone giving this kind of advice is the type of player who props up the bar bemoaning his bad luck because he gave someone a cheap shot to bust him which they gratefully accepted.
1500 already in the pot when it's to you, a raise of 1000 makes it 3000, the button is getting 2-1 (3-1 if he has posted a blind) on a call and the blinds 3-1 - this is too cheap.
AQ is marginal enough with a UTG limper, when you get re-raised it should be dumped unless you have a _very good_ reason to believe that the re-raiser is weak. Are you sure someone would steal re-raise when they have a UTG limper to worry about as well ?
Andy.
Andy made a good point about the big raiser facing two other players--one of which has just made a raise.
Were I in his position, I would need a big hand to do that. He had a big hand.
As to the size of your raise, I doubt that it was much of a factor nor would be in a contested situation such as you encountered. Jim
I Think you needed to muck when re-raised preflop. You have to have a pair, or at least AK to make a call there. You really cant call a re-raise with AQ suited or not. And yes, once you called Preflop, it was correct to move in on the flop. MAYBE he would muck AK (I doubt it, but you never know). Still you had between 9 and 15 outs (15 if he had JJ or less, 9 if he had AA) so I think the pot is laying you more then enough to check and call all in, so you may as well bet and hope he folds.
Still this can be avoided by mucking to his preflop re-raise.
About 35 left from the 200 to start. I just got moved into the cut off 1st hand at new table I have red Q's all fold to me. I push in my $5500 with blinds and antis I stand to double up - sb calls - he shows AhTs.
Of course an A hits the flop and my 4 hours of hard work and skillful play is destroyed in a second.
Just curious how often red QQ gets beat by AhTs heads up in the sims.
Never mind Mike - you had pot odds after all :-)
Just teasing, you're about 71-29 favourite.
Andy.
Mike,
You can run heads-up sims online at
http://www.maestropoker.com/java/headsup/index.html
KJS
If I recall correctly as a general rule you can figure an Ace to flop about 1 out of 3 times. That seems close according to Andy's figure of QQ vs AT. Please correct me if I am wrong.
you are slightly less than a 2and1/2 to one favorite. with him getting 2 to one and only in real trouble if you have ace king queen or jack he has a certain call. many more hands you could have and make this play he can beat or get good odds for his call. in tournaments you have to get by a few of these and make a few of these yourself to do real good. thats the luck part of tournaments.
I agree with all you guys - it's the game we play and some times we are on the wrong end of a beat. Trick in tournaments is to be in those positions most of the time so when your big pair does hold up you can advance and possibly win with a bit of luck.
I am posting this information for my friend, Billy Seymour, who is hosting an upcoming tournament series at the Turning Stone Casino in upstate NY. Email or call him to ask questions, as I know nothing. Well, I know I like Bill, and I know that if you don't like something about his tourneys it will be because he honestly disagrees with you, the casino wouldn't let him do it the better way, or he goofed up big-time. He wants to give you lots of chips and lots of time to play each event, and as much value as the casino will permit for room rates and food deals. I probably can't go because the games are scheduled on the days Sun-Wed, and I can't afford to use any more vacation days this year (except on family visits). Here are some details cut-and-pasted from his email to me.
Agust 19th thru 22nd, four events 100 limit holdem one rebuy, 1500 chips 100 no limit one rebuy, 1500 chips 200 limit holdem no rebuy 3000 chips 300 no limit 3000 chips.
starting time each day will be 4p.m. with our traditional madness later in the evening. room rates are $65. 1-800-771-7711 for res. must use my name as code to get room rate.
This is a show and tell tournament for me put together on short notice. If I get a decent turnout they will allow me to get creative, and we will have some great tournaments at turning stone, all designed with smaller buy ins, and with me they will be constructed for all of us tourny junkies to have plenty of chips. if you find time to come it would be greatly appreciated. Turning Stone is has a nice large poker room, you will enjoy the action. any questions feel free to call me at 315-622-2257.
Greg talking again. The traditional madness Bill is referring to is a Foxwoods thing. During one of the FW tourneys years ago, they started doing a midnight madness satellite. Instead of a 1-table satellite to win the entry into the $1580 tourney, they combined 2 of these into a winner-take-all event where you pay about 165 to enter and the winner of this 2-table affair wins $3200 (lammers and cash). It would usually last about 2.5-3 hours. Bill is apparently going to do something similar at TS.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
General NL tourney question (I'm a true newbie):
I'm comfortable with the idea of No Limit, but I'm still green (nervous) about when to go all in. People are always talking about how NL comes down to just the right bet at just the right time. Can anyone elaborate on this? Some specific questions:
-Is it generally better to go all in on a raise/reraise or just start out the betting all in? Why?
-How much better of a hand must I have to call someone's all in versus raising all in myself?
-I've read to play tighter early in a tournament. Does this only reflect hand selection, or does it refer to betting practice? How does this translate to going all in. Should I never go all in early in a tournament, and increase the likelihood as it progresses?
I realize that these questions are a little vague, but that's the level I'm at in understanding things. If I'm way off the mark with all of this and am missing something, I'd love to hear about it. I appreciate any efforts to right my thinking.
Don't think about all-in as such. Think about how much to bet relative to the size of the pot, and THEN consider how much of your stack (or your opponent's stack) that bet represents. If it's half or more of your stack, maybe less, then go all-in instead of betting that lesser amount.
If you always bet or raise the size of the pot, that's a good place to start. As you gain experience, you'll then start to learn when to bet more or less than the pot.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Anyone out there have some experience/ advice/ opinions on setting up a home tournament? I have about 20 people (mostly home game players) and we want to run a limit holdem tourny wiht about a $50 buy-in. I have some limited experience playing tourneys but am not sure what sort of setup would make for a good tournament but also one which would favor those players with knowledge/skill. Ideally it would run for about 4- 5 hours.
How many chips should each person start with?
How long should the intervals between blind increases be? ( and how should they increase)
Where can I get a decent chips at a decent price?
And anything else u think might be helpful!!
Appreciate the time and thought!
How do you calculate this?
Is it dollar returned / dollar invested * 100 ?
So if I enter a tournament and pay 100$, I win it and get 1000$.
So that's a ROI of (1000$/100$)*100 = 1000% right?
So, basically a ROI of 100% is just getting your money back? anything over 100% is profit. Right or wrong ?
I don't think I got this right.
And also what would be a good ROI for a good player?
Thanks
As long as you know what you mean (and anyone you are talking to does as well) that is as good a definition as any.
IMO doubling your money is a good target and if you can exceed this consistently you are doing very well. Just be careful not to mix in tournaments with different buy-ins together as this can distort your figure misleadingly.
Andy.
ROI is usually given as profit/investment; i.e., net win not gross win. In your hypo, you paid $100 and won $1000, for a profit of $900. thus, you would divide 900 by 100, for a 900% ROI.
This way, a ROI of 0% is break-even, and anything positive means you're winning, while anything negative is losing.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
forget it! you can only make a return on investment whenever you have actually made an investment.
buying into a tournament IS NOT an investment.
having said that, I now find that I don't know what to say to describe the difference......in buying land, or stock for example your investment makes you the owner of something tangible
a true investment seldom results in a 100% loss...whereas entering a tournament frequently results in a 100% loss.
people like tournaments because of the limited loss vs the big payoff...me too! but let's call buy-in something other than an investment. Jim
If you buy an option on stock, is that an investment?
Don't those who buy options often lose the entirety of the money spent buying it?
Obviously, you and I have a different definition of the word investment. I consider it to be an investment everytime I spend money with the expectation of earning more than I spend. So, by my definition, buying into a poker game or a tourney is an investment. When I spend money to get something other than an expectation of making more money, I don't consider it an investment. Thus, buying a car is not an investment (even though I know I'm going to get some money back when I sell/trade-in the car). Buying a house is in the middle. I have a strong expectation to sell the house for more than I paid, but that's not the primary reason to buy. I have to live somewhere, and buying a house is usually cheaper in the long run than renting (because of the resale value).
When somebody tries to say it's OK to spend a lot of money buying a diamond because it's an investment, I think that's funny. I would love to meet somebody who "invests" in diamond jewelry and makes a living at it (and no, that wouldn't include a retailer or wholesaler, I mean somebody who buys the rings and resells them to other than the general public).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, as I asid in my 1st post,II was having hard time finding words to express my thoughts. Still am.
sure agree with you about diamonds and houses, but not sure that EXPECTATIONS is the key to defining investments.
have just now looked it up..."the outlay of money for income or profit"...
anyway, seems I spoke to soon.
so here's wishing you a high ROI on you tournament investments. Jim
When Andy says that you should not mix tournaments of different buy-in, what would be the maximum difference between 2 touraments you could put in the same category?
I understand that if you usually play 50$ buy-in tournies and then you buy-in into a 1000$ one and win it, of course your ROI will have nothing to do with the 50$ tournament. Then you should separate your touraments so, as Andy put it, your figures are not distorted.
But I am wondering how much can you deviate from those entry fees. Is putting a 50$ buy-in tounament with a 50$ rebuy (so 100$ total invested)in the same category as a 130$ tournament acceptable?
How about a 30$ and a 50$ one?
I'm thinking that if I start to calculate different ROI for every different buy-ins I have, I'll never get enough tournaments in to get a reasonnable ROI statistically.
How about buy-ins 0-100$, 100-500$ and 1000$ and more? That's what I've been doing until now.
Thanks,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Who's to say what's right or wrong :-) ?
Anyway, I separate mine into Under £20 ; £20-£49 ; £50 - £99 ; £100 and over. However, since 90% of the tournaments I play are either £20 or £50, and most of the rest £100, that is really tailored to the tournaments I play in.
The better your record-keeping system, the easier it is to keep track. If you are adept with a database this gives you a lot more flexibility than a spreadsheet.
Andy.
Interesting. I use Access to track my tournies and ring play. I do categorize each tourney by the number of entries to see how I do in different size tournies. I have not specifically compared the buy-in amount although that would be a simple change.
How do you handle rebuys? If the tourney costs £50 with a £50 rebuy, do you track that in the £50 - £99 range or the £100 and over range?
Ken Poklitar
That stays in the £50 range, I think that's the only sensible way.
Andy.
Who's to say what's right or wrong :-) ?
I know it a pretty abstract question but I was just wondering if statistically there was a way to determine how to group them.
Like the buy-ins should not be more that 50% bigger or smaller than each other for your figures to be accurate. Or whatever...
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
If one way or another is better in some statistically provable sense, I sure don't know it. I don't actually track ROI for my tourneys or ring games (in fact, unless you track every single bet, call, or raise you make, you can't track ROI for a ring game).
Basically, all I do nowadays is put down the information necessary for tax purposes. Date, location, game, limits, time, amount won or lost. I do divide the entries by type of poker (e.g., stud vs. HE) and betting limits. However, I really don't put in enough hours of play for these numbers to mean anything. Maybe someday.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In years past I nearly always played satelites for tournaments of $500 or more. My time is much more limited now. This year I have bought in all my tournaments. Until this year I had never had a losing year. This year I am losing $6900. I add all my buyins and Combined with all my expenses to arrive at this figure. Next year I am considering factoring in an hourly minimum wage from the time I leave my house until the time I return to get a handle on the alternative cost of tournament play. No ROI fo' da boy.
Hi there, some of you may recognise me as a regular contributor to the Small Stakes and Internet section of this page.
I have only recently started to play pot-limit (with very encouraging results, amongst them a 6th place finish in a big tournament in Oslo).
Anyway, home playing with the lads we start a five-handed 'tournament' where the winner takes it all (all the chips, all the money). Everybody starts with 1000 chips, and blinds are 5 & 10.
After making a poor call with QT on a x-x-x-Q board, I'm finding myself a bit down, and decides to play a little make or break poker, since second will get me nowhere. Blinds are now 10/20, four-handed, and with about 750 chips left, I bring in a pot sized raise UTG with 7c5c. Button re-raises about 300, I've got 640 left. Now, usually in pot-limit, this is a clear fold against what's bound to be a big pair or in some events, AK. However, the table's been a bit filled with re-raises lately after I started to defend my blinds by re-raising anything close to callable.
Back to 7c5c. I know I'm not dominated unless he happens to hold a big pair, right now, there are plenty of no pair hands I can see him re-raising. With 600 left, I feel calling is out of the question for me, as I could easily make a mistake on a flop like Ah-Jc-6d (if he holds something like 44), therefore I go all-in. I catch a 7 against an AJo to double up.
Soon after, a trend is started, as AJ-guy goes out with 88 after reraising an UTG raisor's Qc5c! Haha.
It eventually winds up heads-up with a decent, but very inconsistent player. After stealing and re-stealing some blinds (I've only got about a third of the stack), I raise Jd8d in small blind.
I get called, and the flop bring Q-9-7, two hearts, one diamond. I bet the pot, and my opponent instantly re-raises the pot, but I've only got about 2/3 of a pot-sized raise in my stack, so I'm getting about 4:1.
Looks bad huh? Well, I know my opponent very well, I believe he's just about to get a little personal after being pushed off a few hands (or rather being caught in trying to push me off). There is a VAST amount of hands he could call with pre-flop, and a big amount of these he'd raise on a flop like this. Any two hearts (could have a lower high card), 10-8, 8-6, 6-7 and so on. You catch my drift. I've also got a strong feeling that he's not representing the Queen, which would be very critical for me.
After a little while, I make the call. BB turns over A7o. So I've got ten outs right here with a runner-runner flush draw to go. I hit my gutshot on the turn for the absolute stone cold nuts and double up and win the tiny-tourney soon after.
I'd like comments on these two hands.
lars
75 - There is absolutely NO need to play make-or-break poker when you have T750 and the blinds are only 10,20 (even 4-handed). You can afford to wait for a reasonable hand before making any plays here. So, your play of this hand was a mistake, IMO. Not that you can't make a move with any hand, but once the guy reraises substantially for half your stack you've got to muck this hand. There is NO way that your play is correct here, none.
J8 - You're heads-up, and trying to steal. So, your first raise is fine, as is your flop bet, AS LONG AS there really was a good chance that the opponent would fold. If he was going to call often, then both bets are wrong. If he's going to call, you wait for a hand that is likely to be the best hand, you don't bluff.
As for your final call, eh, hard to say. 4:1 with 2 cards looks good, and you've gotten yourself into a spot where there is no good answer. So, I don't disparage the call.
It sounds like this game was hyper-aggressive. Since you started out with lots of chips relative to the blinds, you should have been trapping rather than getting in there with mediocre hands and mixing it up. Wait for a big hand or a big flop (to a mediocre hand that got in cheap), and then give action. By the time they figure out you've got the goods this time, they will have already given you too many of their chips.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
..."lars" ....that must be the Norwegan word for LUCKY. Jim
Did anyone play in the ultimate bet tourney last night?I'm playing in the 5:00 today. Just wondering how it went.
Thanks for any responses.
Goodie
There is a recurring debate between myself and some of the other regular players in the weekly Tuesday night NL HE tourney at FW.
Here is the situation. Originally, you pay $25 + $10 to the casino, and receive T200 in chips. Anytime during the rebuy period, if you have T200 or less, you may rebuy and pay $20 to receive T200. Thus, you may rebuy before the first hand is dealt, and when you go broke, you can immediately rebuy twice. Rebuys run for the first 3 levels of 25 minutes each, with blinds of 5/5, 5/10, and 10/15. At the end of this period, you may purchase any rebuys for which you are eligible, and you may also take a single or double addon no matter how many chips you have. Thus, no matter what your chip count, you may buy T200 for $20, or T400 for $40. We take a 15 minute break, and then return with no more opportunities for getting more chips (other than winning them) and blinds of 15/25.
Now, here is where the debate comes in. BTW, I just flipped a coin to pick which side I'll present first. On the one hand, some people say you should only addon if your stack is relatively small, as they feel that adding let's say T400 to a stack that is already T1000 (or T1500, or some other relatively large and above-average amount) isn't worth the $40. They argue that you won't increase your chances of winning/placing enough to justify the $40 spent. On the other hand, some people argue that since the original chips cost $25 per T200, and the addons come at a price of $20 per T200, you should take any and all addons available.
I would like all of you reading this to present your side of this issue, what decision you would make, and why you make it. If bankroll is a consideration, i.e., if spending an extra $40 or not is even partially determined by your bankroll size, then assume for purposes of this question that your bankroll is huge, and that no such consideration applies. So, pretend you're sitting there with $20,000 in your pocket, and lots more where that came from, and your decision to addon or not is being made solely with respect to maximizing your profitability.
I'm hoping to come up with some new ways of explaining to those who disagree with me why they're mistaken. However, I won't post my opinion until this thread is already well-developed.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think it is dependent on:
1) prize breakdown
2) average number of rebuys
3) whether or not everyone else adds on
However, since I would generally calculate tournament EV as:
EV = (Prize)(Equity) - (Cost), where:
Prize = average money paid to someone in the money
Equity = (% of chips you have to chips in play)+(your % of chance making the money if everyone had an equal stack)
I don't see why you would ever want to cause your equity to decrease. I guess you could work out the math and decide that if (Prize)(Equity) increases by more than 40, its a positive EV to add on.
I am not sure whether or not this formula would make sense or not without trying some concrete numbers (here, I don't know the prize structure or how many players play in a foxwoods tourney). But maybe it would be ok?
Personally I always rebuy, but in our tournaments the add on is generally extremely good value for the cost ($20 EF for 300 chips, $5 rebuy for 300 chips, $15 add on for 1000 chips), so there is no question.
Lately, we've been averaging about 70 players in these events, with the top 9 getting paid, and there is more play in this event than in any other small weekly event I've ever seen. We start at 7PM, and usually don't end until at least 1AM. The payouts are pretty typical, with 1st getting 34%, then 24%, 14%, down to 1.5% for 9th.
The prize pool is usually about $90 per player, so the average player has taken about 3 rebuys/addons, and the average stack at the end of the rebuy period is about T800-900.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
When I was on the East Coast last time I bought a copy of Gambling Theory and Other Topics by Mason Malmuth. I don't have a copy with me here at work but there were a few essays on rebuys. What I remember is the essay implied that if you are the chip leader that it doesn't make sense to rebuy. I believe if you are in last or average it says to rebuy.
If I remember I will review the article tonight.
In general I have always rebought and added on. Since reading that article I may not rebuy if I am a big chip-leader. Unfortunately I have had not had the issue in the past few months.
Ken Poklitar
I believe that Mason's comments were only with respect to rebuys/addons that were the same price as the original buyin, for the same chips. For example, in the rebuy events at the WSOP (such as the deuce-to-seven lowball), the only difference between rebuys and original buyins is the vig.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
That may be true but the jist of what he says is that if it is +EV for you to take an addon/rebuy when you are low in chips it must be -EV for you to take an addon/rebuy when you are first in chips. The closer you are to a middle stack it becomes a very close EV situation.
If you have the middle stack then the essay does state that you should look at who has the chips. If it is a weak player compared to you then it makes sense. If it is a solid player compared to you then it may be better to not take it.
But that being said, the Foxwoods NL tourney does give you lots of play for your chips. With blinds only being 15-25 after the addon round, I have always taken the double addon. I like knowing that if I hit a hand that the extra 400 could be doubled or tripled up. I also do the rebuy like you do at the beginning of the tourney for the same reason.
On a personal note I am flying out to RI next Tuesday and will be playing several of the Foxwoods tournies from August 8 - 28.
Ken Poklitar
BTW fellows,
I will try to make it on the 20 and 21. Hope to see you there, we could have dinner before the NL event on tuesday, if you are interested...
I'll confirm things later.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
My thoughts...
The original chips cost $35 (only $25 to the prize pool, but they cost $35). Rebuys and Addons cost $20, or 4/7 of the original cost. When do you not take the add-on?
There is definitely a point where the add-on is not worth it. If you have say T10000 purchasing the chips for $40 to increase your stack size to T10400 does not seem reasonable. In this case the you have increased your stack by 4%.
I think a reasonable number to use would be to addon once if you are within 35/20 of the average. Add on again if you are still with in 35/20 of the average. Therefore if the average is 900 then addon once if you have < 1575. If you still have < 1575 addon again. I think an addon is more valuable for players with more skill, so the more skilled the player the higher this ratio would be. Conversely, the less skilled you are the lower the ratio would be.
Just My Thoughts,
Derrick
2 points.
First, why should it matter by what percent your stack increases? It seems that the only thing that should matter is how much you spend for the rebuys/addons, and how much your EV goes up by buying those chips. I mean, if my stack only goes up 4% when I spend $40, who cares; as long as my EV goes up by more than $40.
Second, you're correct about skill making a difference. If I have T200 and an EV of $40 therefrom, by spending $20 my EV may go up by $40 more, if I'm a very good player. Contrarily, a very weak player may have an EV of only $8, and doubling his stack may increase that EV by only about $8 more, making the $20 price tag too high. Overall, an amount of chips added to the stack of a very good player will have more value than the same number of chips added to the stack of a very bad player, assuming they both started with the same size stack.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
i always buy max chips possible at the break when the real tournament begins (when no more rebuys allowed)..i look at it as the true buyin for the tournie and realize this is not optimal,but i figger that gives you the max chance to win, but not the best value for your money...just the way i do it..gl
I agree with what seems to be the prevailing concern in the thread so far which is basing your choice on your relative stack size as compared to the average but one BIG consideration for me would have to be the texture of THE table which I am seated at (how aggro?) and my relative chip stack at my table. I would be more apt to rebuy the max if aggro or if someone had a gain a large chip lead and was runnig the table over(hoping of course that they would not). First impression. Think more and reply later.
they say " a chip & a chair" if you have a seat, you have a chance, thus rebuys in early stages seem appropriate
but for me, in late stages or at the break, if you will still be very short comparatively, then it may not be thing to do.
conversely, if you are chip leader at the break, then you may need to add on in order to protect that lead. Jim
Sorry to say that this advice is pretty much the opposite of that given by most expert players. Mathematically, it is more likely to be correct to add-on the smaller your stack, and it is more likely to be incorrect if you have a very big stack. Of course, when the cost of the rebuys/addons/buyins are not equal, that may be a bigger factor than stack size of the potential buyer.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I think the best strategy is to make a rebuy as soon as you can. You want to encouage the weaker players to rebuy at your table. The more initial rebuys you can encourage, the better your chances are to win the tournament.
Whenever, I play an unlimited rebuy tournament, I almost always rebuy as soon as I qualify for it. I have noticed that it encourages others to rebuy, that probably would have not.
The main advantage is when the weaker players go broke, the better (or lucky) players will have the chips. I believe that if you can get your initial table to make twice as many rebuys than the other tables, the winners will have a better chance of making the final table.
This is the strategy I encourage when I play in these types of tounaments.
Good advice, but it is directed to the value of influencing others rather than to the value of your rebuy/addon itself. I'd prefer to ignore tangential issues for this thread.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Please correct me if I'm wrong. I thought the primary reason to buy as many chips as you can is to lower the relative average cost of the individual chip. kThis has nothing to do with your relative chip profile. I do base my decision to not bebuy once in a while upon table dynamics. Essentially if I have an opportunity to buy chips I do so.
OK. In theory there are two factors you need to balance.
1) The re-buy chips are cheaper than your initial buy-in, but not by very much ($20 rather than $25 for 200 chips). Note to poster above, the $10 entry fee is irrelevant, you pay that to sit down, it's gone (because it does not add to the prize pool).
2) However, the more chips you have, the less each individual chip is worth. This is a very small factor in the early (and even middle) stages of the tournament but it may come into play if your stack is very large.
With the re-buys being only marginally cheaper (and remember there are 3 or more of these on average per initial buy-in), it's actually quite close. I believe that situational factors will over-ride the theoretical concerns.
Assuming this is No-Limit, any time a weak (and preferably loose) player has more chips than you and you can re-buy, then you should. Obviously you should give yourself a chance to double through him. If I feel I am a better player than average at the table (I think this may be the case for Greg but _not necessarily_ all those he is discussing the situation with) I will always take the rebuy when I drop below 200 chips, and I will take the double add-on unless I am a substantial chip leader at the table. Having 2400 chips instead of 2000 will make more of a difference than you think if you manage to double through twice (which should be your aim).
Essentially if you are a winning player, take almost all the rebuys, if you aren't then don't (mind you, if you aren't then don't play from a purely financial POV, don't tell anyone that though :-)).
Andy.
Question about $10 fee... If you play in a tournament that cost $35 of which $25 went to the prize pool and you won $26... did you win a $1 or lose $9.
If you calculate your winrate you would definitely include the $10... IE you win $26 your winrate is ($26-$35)/$35 = -26%.
Derrick Ashworth
Yes, your records must include the house fee, as should your calculations such as ROI, $/hour, etc. However, when calculating the utility of the rebuys/addons, I think the house fee should be ignored as well.
For example, imagine this tourney was a $30 + $20 original buy, and rebuys/addons cost $40. Everything else is the same, and you get the same T200 for each buy of whatever type. In this format, the rebuys/addons cost 33% more than the buy as I calculate it, and I think that you shouldn't take any rebuys/addons at all (of course, with a house vig that high relative to the stakes, you shouldn't play at all either).
Of course, all these calculations assume players of equal skill, which if this were true we would all be playing with -EV due to the house charges.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Good advice, as usual. However, you bring up tangential issues I'd prefer to avoid for my purposes (e.g., who has a big stack at your table).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think I understand what your looking for Greg, a disscussion on whether it is optimal to rebuy and add-on from a purely subjective point of view(i.e. considering nothing more than (hypothetical player) you and your earning potential etc. but I think this so restricts the discussion by placing it under unreal circumstances --in a vacuum-- that it really becomes irrelevant and not even worth considering! The "tangential issues" aren't confusing the issue they happen to be the issue, this is, i think, what should be what is influencing your decision! Maybe?
: )---
I believe Andy is correct. If you are a superior player, it is correct to rebuy as often as necessary, and add-on twice in order to maximize your surviveability and double-through potential.
Interestingly, even if you assume all players are of equal ability, it is still correct to rebuy. This is simply because you are getting a better value for the rebuy than you did for the initial buy-in.
It would only be correct to limit your rebuys if you are a worse than average player, because the value would be overcome by the fact that you are compounding your already negative expectation.
Lastly, it would make an interesting computer simulation. Assume all players have equal ability and run a tournament sim. with players making different amounts of rebuys. I predict that if all opponents rebought maximally, it would make no difference whether or not you rebought at all. If there were any opponents who never rebought, it would be correct for you to always rebuy maximally.
-Craig H.
As I've said to Greg many times, if this was a limit holdem event where a certain number of add on chips buys you a pre-determined number of hands based on the levels, then yes, you should add on. But in no-limit, you are most likely going up against a bigger stack in which case you do pick up a few more chips, or you go up against a shorter stack and it makes no difference. You get no value.
I have done very well in this tourney for 2 years as I'm sure Greg will attest. I have a large profit margin when compared to my buy-in amounts invested. I don't add-on at the final add-on level unless I can increase my stack by 50%. ( Just my number, no science).
Greg also does well in this tourney but I know he spends much more on it than I do. Therefore, with the same win percentage I will make more profit.
Greg thinks that buying more chips greatly increases his chances of winning or placing in the money.
So much depends on the skill of each participant. But I truly believe that if I had taken the add-on everytime, regardless of my chip count at that break, I would not increase my amount won enough to offset the extra amount spent. Just my opinion.
Keep playing hard!
What the hell, I will take a swing from a theoretical perspective--likely leavingout the numbers (not my thing).
Basically each add on you take reduces your overall cost per chip in your stack. But, as you have more chips this difference becomes less significant. At some point, if you have a tremendous amount of chips, your reduction in average cost per chip is not worth the additional cash it soct you to buy them in relation to the prize pool. The greater the differential between the initial cost of chips and the rebuy the more obvious this is. This is what people call diminishing returns.
It may be easier to explain with a more drastic example then the one put forth by Greg:
First start with a couple of premesis (kind of socratic). 1) If all players were paying $100 to play, would you rather have 1000 in chips or 5000 in chips for the same $100 total? (obvious answer)
2) If all other players are paying 100 for 1000 chips would you pay 101 for 5000 in chips if you were the ONLY player allowed to do so? (also pretty obvious).
3) Would you pay 150 for 2000 in chips when every one else can only buy 1000 for 100--ie 2x chips for 1.5 cost? (Pretty much guiding them to where we are going).
4) Now if everyone else can do it to (at their option) would you still do it, realizing that if you dont they get 5x chips for 1.5 cost , and you only get 1xchips for 1x cost. Thus by not taking the option you would be giving them the thing you wanted above (in 1-3) while essentially not being allowed to take the option that you orginally wanted yourself (Basically you first get them to agree they would do something if they were the only one who could, then ask them if others could do it, wouldn't they want to do it as well for the same reason).
5) At what point do you not take it? I am not sure of the number, but depending on the spread in cost (ie 2-1 like the Mirage events) it may be mandatory nearly without exception--in Foxwoods, the number may be lower, but the concept is still illustrated above. It is not as some people say unlimited in nature as will be illustarted below.
6) this example of when NOT to take an addon can be drastic as well. For example if you KNOW you are the ONLY one adding on, and addons were Unlimited without regard to chips, and multiple places are paid, clearly you would NOT voluntarily spend more then 1st place pays to win 1st place at the beginning of an event, so clearly regardless of how cheap chips are there is a limit as to how many you will buy.
7) Greg, this is where I tire, and the math will stop me from progressing to numerical examples, so someone else can figure out where the break point is. But, in my experience, when the chips are cheaper then the original buy, one so rarely reaches the point of diminishing return on purchase, that it is rarely a mistake, and if it is it is only a small one, to rebuy. Thus, I would always take the add on, unless I had just a staggering number of chips
Hope this qualitative explanatory method helps.
Yes, it is helpful, and it is more in agreement with my own opinions than most of the other replies.
I am confident that under the FW tourney rules that one should ALWAYS rebuy whenever they are permitted to do so, AND that they should almost always addon no matter how big their stack. Although I don't know how to do the math to calculate the exact stack size (relative to the total chip count) at which time adding on is no longer +EV, I suspect that one must have something like 10% of all the chips in play before they need to start concerning themselves with it.
The end of the rebuy period is about 1.5 hours into the tourney. And, since most people rebuy if they're broke, you are still early in the tournament since most of the field is still in action. Thus, the diminishing value of chips in a large stack (vs. the same chips in a small stack) is pretty insignificant at this point, unless your stack is truly huge. The biggest my stack has ever been at this point is about 5% of all the chips in play, so I have always taken the double addon. And, when I am sitting there with 1500-2400 in chips, I've almost always had somebody comment on my taking a double addon for just 400 more in chips. I am confident I am correct, but have been unable to convince a few of them (Glen in particular; who does have an excellent record in this tourney, and who is a good player in it; yet, I think Glen could do even better if his poker math were better with respect to this issue and a few others where he disagrees with me; then again, maybe he's right and I'm wrong).
Anyway, I was looking for ammunition that I could use to convince Glen and a couple of other buddies with whom I discuss poker strategy. I do NOT make a point of educating the masses, but I do discuss things like this with a few regulars who I respect. By doing so, I may improve their game, but I improve mine as well, and that puts us both further ahead of the guys we don't strategize with.
Everybody, thanks for your input.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Right. If you cut me some slack on my dodgy assumptions we might be able to take a stab at this. If we have no chips then each chip we receive is worth 100% of its cost. If we have 100% of the chips and first prize is 40% of the total pool, each additional chip is worth 40% of its cost. IF there is a linear progression between these points (even approximately) we can say that, for example, if you have 50% of the chips then each additional chip is worth 70% of its value. If you don't think that this is valid, then fine, you can disregard my conclusions.
Now, our first rebuy costs $25, successive rebuys cost $20. Assuming an average of 3 rebuys per player, p players in the tournament and c chips per rebuy, there will be 4pc chips in play and the prize pool will be $85p. An additional rebuy is worth $85p/4p = $21.25. Each additional chip is worth 6.25% more than what you are paying for it.
Finding the break-even point on the back of our envelope we see that if you have 10% of the chips then each additional chip is worth 94% of its value according to the diminishing value of larger stacks above BUT each chip is worth 106.25% of its value because of the cheaper re-buys SO when you have 10% of the chips, the two factors cancel out. On a purely theoretical basis it is correct to rebuy when you have less than 10% of the chips in play and incorrect if you have more.
Provided you buy my assumptions :-).
Andy.
Well, since my totally pulled-out-of-thin-air guess was that I would need to have 10% of the chips before I would worry about the diminishing value of the chips, I'll accept your calculation.
Actually, I would think that the curve would be pretty much non-linear, and that it would curve in a way that made it correct to rebuy with more chips than your calculation indicates. Thus, I suspect the real breaking point is noticeably higher than 10%, probably at least 15%.
Thanks for your time.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Although I didn't check Andy's numbers the idea is right. If your stack is sufficiently large, you should NOT addon. (The `linear' assumption was an approximation, but the conclusion would still qualitatively be the same with a more complicated analysis. Actually, if your opponents had equal (to each other) stacks then your expected payout would really be a linear function of your stack share. But in general, your expected payout depends not only on your stack share, but also on the sizes of all other stacks. Basically if your opponents have a given amount of total chips, you prefer them to be distributed as unevenly as possible, with the best situation being that one opponent has them all, and the worst situation being that they are spread evenly.)
But the basic conclusion is correct. If your stack is sufficiently large, you should not add on. But this decision depends not only on your stack size, but also on all other stack sizes (and maybe also `tangential issues').
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
Also posted on the Internet forum:
Does anyone have anything good to say about the Planet Poker tournies?
I have tried twice--the first time I was disconnected for over an hour midway through the tournie, as were many others. They did refund my entry fee.
Last night, their server went down on all games, so I am 0-2 in even getting to play.
I like the idea of having multi-table tournies (I play the Paradise tournies frequently). Are there any other sites that are trying multi-table tournies? And why doesn't Paradise?
I play low limit pot limit tourneys with low buy ins £10 or £20 with unlimited rebuys for the 1st 90 minutes. The action tends to be fairly loose during the rebuy period, it is difficult to raise players out of a pot pre flop and much of the action is multi way. The fields are 40 to 60 strong and the last 10 get paid, although 10th & 9th probably no more than £50 in a £10 game.
Until now I have taken the view that I ignore the madness going on around me play my own game and limit my rebuys to 2. Thus far I have been sucessful in that I make the final table about 30% of the time, although in many cases I am relatively short stacked after the rebuy period.
Is there any real advantage in playing loose in the rebuy period and therefore being prepared to rebuy more often?
At what point does rebuying in this type of tournament become a waste of your bankroll?
If I am to play loose in multiway action is it better to run with connectors than say medium pairs?
any thoughts on this would be welcome.
Ross,
I know the kind of tournaments you mean and this is a very common question. Unfortunately there isn't really a satisfactory answer.
I don't think it matters all that much whether you play loose or tight ! It matters that you play aggressively and it matters that you play well. Playing well means adjusting to the current situation. Instead of ignoring the madness, think about each situation as it occurs and do your best - you'll get some decisions wrong (we all do) but you'll get some right and you should be learning all the time.
Hope this helps (I am aware it sounds a little vague),
Andy.
If you're making the final table that often, you're probably a winning player in this game. So, you should take every rebuy/addon available to you, whenever you qualify for them (assuming that they are all the same price, or that rebuys/addons are cheaper than the original buy). I wouldn't limit myself to 2 rebuys, as you're still going to be getting value on your 3rd or 4th rebuys, as long as you continue to play a winning game.
As for loose/tight, I wouldn't think that way. Do as Andy says, and play each hand on it's own. For example, if you have a marginal hand, but a lot of people have come in and it looks like nobody will raise, then play it this time. If you have the same marginal hand in early position, so you can't judge how many will stay nor if there will be a raise, then muck it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
FYI In this type of tournament you can only re-buy when you have no chips, and your choices at this point are rebuy or rail !
What Ross and many others want to know is whether you should play marginal hands and situations which effectively increases your variance. Generally if someone would offer me double or nothing for my buy-in stack on a coin flip I would take it as you need a bigger stack to punish the weaker players. I'm not sure this necessarily applies for a new player.
Personally I can only play so often and when picking and choosing I do try to avoid the small buy-in competitions because the better player has a smaller edge and, like in other sports, the lower the level, the more annoying angle-shooters you get trying to compensate for their lack of skill by being annoying, so I may not be best placed to answer the question (if it has an answer).
Andy.
Well Ross, I for one would like to know *your* tips on these tournaments. I've been playing them for a while, I suppose I've played about 15, and I've only made the final table once.
I am extremely impressed by your success rate... So, any strategy hints?
Cheers,
Guy.
I wouldn't play overly loose but I would push medium pairs a little more then normal. If players making pot size raises with A-small then a middle pair can do fairly well against them. The key of course is to watch what the other players are pushing and raising.
The crazy rebuy tournies I have played in are NL and players were going all-in with Kx. In that tourney I was calling huge raises with TT or JJ and winning them.
Ken Poklitar
Thanks for the helpful comments. Just picking up a few points.
Andy when I say "ignoring the madness" what I am trying to avoid is something I have witnessed in otherwise solid players when confronted with the resident maniacs they copy the style. This seems pointless.
On the point of aggression when a pot sized raise from a player in an early position who has'nt played a hand in 1/2 an hour fails to push a player out holding A6 off suit, what do you do? Of course I am delighted to take this action head to head with QQ, problem is when I have the wrong table most flops are seen by at least 3 players, is there any case for slow playing big hands pre flop and then betting aggresively post flop particularly from an early position.
One of the reasons if I was to loosen up I would be inclined to look to the connectors rather than meduim pairs is that although the players are loose they will still hit their fair share of big pairs and in these situations I would rather have 65 suited than 77. Is my thinking wrong here ?
Thanks for the comments
Ross
If you have a premium pair, don't ever concern yourself with playing the hand other than getting these guys all-in preflop. Yes, they might flop nothing and river an A, and you would have won if you'd played it differently. But, there are also times when they outflop you and you come back to win. There are also times (the majority) when you win beginning to end, and you won more by getting it all-in preflop as opposed to betting them out after the flop. Overall, you win more by getting them to commit early, as long as you've got the big pair.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Two similar situations in a $11 O/8 Tourney:
Hand 1) I am in BB with AsKh7s3c. It is 1st level so blinds are 10-15. 7 players in before the flop.
Flop is 3s6s3h. I flop trip 3's with good kickers plus a nut flush draw on a paired board. I bet and get 5 callers.
Turn is Js. I have now have nut flush. I bet and get 3 callers.
River is Tc. No low. I bet out again and get raised. I call and the player shows 6532 for a flopped boat.
Hand 2) I am in mid-position with AcKs4s3s. 2nd level and blinds are 15-25. I have 590 to start the hand. 5 players see the flop
Flop is Kh8hKc. I have trip kings with an Ace kicker. SB bets 25. UTG raises. I call and the SB calls.
Turn is 5s. UTG bets and we both call.
River is Tc. UTG bets and we both call. SB flopped a boat with 88xx. UTG turned a boat with K5xx.
On hand 1 I think I played it fine until the river. I probably should have check/called on the end. On hand 2 I have a feeling I should have mucked on the flop and maybe again on the river when I didn't fill up.
Even with these two early hands I picked up some late cards and made the money for the 10th straight $11 Omaha tourney in a row:)
Ken Poklitar
Your record is a lot better than mine lately, but I think you overplayed the first hand. Full houses are quite common by the river when there is a paired board, and in the first case if another low card comes you are only playing for half the pot. Your flush draw isn't really worth a great deal with the board paired.
The second case is a slightly better situation as you have top kicker and there is only one low card out but I think you should tread a little carefully until, as you say, you fill up. If you do fill up though you are less vulnerable than the first case where if anyone hits their pocket pair (higher than a 3) you can fill up and still lose.
Andy.
I do agree that with 5 or 6 callers in the 1st hand it is unlikely the flush would win and it was likely that someone was full or could fill up better then I could.
So it sounds like you wouldn't have folded the 2nd hand on the flop but instead on the river?
Thanks for the input.
Ken Poklitar
Once in a while it is correct to call in NL holdem. Usually we are faced with the NL maxim lead with anything trail with nothing. I was in a $330 buyin NL tournament last night. The blinds are T100 andT200 with no ante yet. I am in third position with pocket 9's. We are playing 8 handed with about 60 players remaining. I have T1200. A pretty good experienced player limps in first position. I am thinking about moving on the pot. The limper could have anything. I think better about my decision and dog this hand. I never really considered just calling. I think I made a mistake here. I believe calling to be correct. What do you think?
I smell a limp reraise attempt by the experienced utg limper - perhaps with a KK or higher. A call from you may be correct as it could encourage others to just limp behind you. You're looking to flop. If you don't flop, be ready to release if someone bets.
It could be if you had more chips but 200 out of 1200 is too much to call with pre-flop IMO. With a stack this low then it really is raise or release.
Andy.
The times I limp in NL is if I think I can trap an opponent with a big flop like a small set - it really depends on the table I am at and how the tournament is being played by the guys at that table. If it is one where they let me see flops cheap I'll tear them up if they are aggressive players it makes the job a bit harder. I think it is OK to limp in some situations pre flop in NL tournaments - I don't suggest doing it with a lot of hands types though.
I agree with Andy. 1/6 of your stack is too much for a limp-in. If you had T2000 or more, then you probably should limp in here, and hope nobody raises behind you. If the money were really deep, you could raise, call any reraise, and still have enough money in to play to justify the chances of getting it all when you flop a set.
Here, you're just not deep enough to play this hand unless you think it's much more likely than not the limper has a hand he'll fold, in which case you come in with an all-in raise.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I would fold 99 to an UTG limper when I only have 1200. At best he is limping with 2 overcards. At worst he has a big pair waiting for limpers or a raise. I don't think you have enough chips to call. Too many calls and you have no chips.
Ken Poklitar
got the blinds comin too. if u just call, any overpair on the flop will force you to fold. if u push in and they call it could be over. medium pairs in this situation can be costly. still people to act also. id fold.
that is all,
dannyboy :o)
This seems a no-brainer all-in to me. First, if UTG knows what he's doing, he's not going to limp with KK or AA -- he would raise 2X BB minimum. The reason is that this in no way diminishes the chances of someone coming over the top behind him (presumably his goal with KK or AA) while protecting him from giving the blinds a free card or allowing a late-position player to limp with a small pair and see the flop. (By the way, I learned this lesson the hard way at a NL final table where I limped with KK, no one raised behind me, and I was knocked out by the BB holding J9.) Depending on his stack-size, he may have AK or a smaller pair.
Second, the most common short-stack mistake is waiting too long to make a move. You are probably better off going all-in here with 99 than waiting one more round and going all-in with AA. The shorter stack after a round of blinds means that even if you double up, you're not much better off than you are now. In NL tournaments, you want to go all-in with the best of it, but you simply don't have that luxury -- it's better to go all-in with several chips on a semi-strong hand like 99 than with one chip and AA. Just hope you get called by AK and win the coin flip.
There's still 60 players left, but I like your aggressive thinking. Anyway, bottom line is this IMO. This is not the time to flat call. Either push in or fold. I would not just call with this hand based on my stack size.
that is all,
danny boy :o)
See post regarding "A good deal" by Joe below
I am really interested in what the average winning hand is in a heads up hold'em contest. Say a million hands - My guess is 99's with a say J or Q kicker.
Or am I too high. My hand standards are usualy a bit above everyone elses maybe here too.
Heads up, I would have to go lower. 66's with a K kicker
This will be my first experience at a POG at the Reno Hilton, and I am looking for any advice that I can get, i.e. Which events usually have the best turn-outs, etc.
Also, I know they usually offer a special room rate. Do you just mention that you're a tourney player while reserving a room, or do you need to pre-register for an event or something?
Any advice is VERY appreciated!
CHiP
I've played in it a couple of times in the last few years - 1stly it is a good well run tournament plenty of satellites and the evening 2nd chance tournaments are limited to 100 so sign up as soon as you can, they do fill up.
The hotel is a fine one and close to the airport a $5 taxi max ride so unless you want to do some sight seeing you won't need to rent a car. Poker tournament room rate is (or was) $25 and you will need to set it up in advance as soon as possible the cheap rooms are limited.
Between tournaments and ring action there is a nice improv - if you like that sort of thing.
Don't be suprised to find the top tournament pros there they like this one too.
Hope you do well let us know.
Thanks rounder
arriving in vegas the 27th of aug. and would like some info as to what would be the best daily limit tourney to enter for ease of applying my new knowledge..
thanks
Get an issue of Poker Digest or Card Player at your local cardroom or at one of the Poker Rooms there when you arrive. There is a schedule of weekly LV tournaments in the back. You should be able to play at least one every single day of your stay. I am partial to the $33.00 Holdem tourney at the Stratosphere. I have had fantastical luck with it. You will get a spiffy little trophy if you win it. It will make a neat souvenir if you manage to win. I have one in the kitchen, one in the garage, one in the living room and one in the bathroom to show everyone that I am a Poker KING! :). I often ponder my poker trophy when sitting on my throne. The Orleans and Mirage also have nice daily tourneys. Just look in the back of the magazine and pick one from the schedule. Have fun..wish I was going there with ya!
*** One last hint, play live at the Bellagio and ask the floorman for a Buffet comp, you normally have to come back the next day and get it..but MAN is it worth the effort. Crab legs longer than your arm..delicious gourmet food prepared by real chefs...incredible eating experience. You also get to cut in line and the line is about 2 blocks long. Also, when you enter the tourney's at the Mirage, you get a Buffet comp if you ask. The Mirage buffet is also excellent. Make sure ya ask for food comps everywhere you play.
Play tight, eat well, have fun!
Regards,
Joe (Thinking of the dessert bar at the Bellagio...drool..slobber..drool...)
thanks for the info...Yes i am very aware of the casinos with tournies but some are bvetter then others and thats what I`m asking.. will definitely go for the buffets
Hey Joe Cheez, is the Strat's Poker room even open anymore?? Thought I heard that they had done away with it!
CHiP
I'll suggest the noon $25 freeze-out tourney at The Luxor. Get there early to be sure you get a seat. I played as a beginner last August, first game in Vegas for me, and took down 1st place in one of these.
The Strat poker room is still open as far as I know. The N/L game there is gone I think..but the room is still open.
Your best bet for the largest field and smallest entry fees would probably be the Orleans. They also have bounty tournaments that are great fun. You get $5.00 for knocking out players.
If you are cheap like me, you might want to check out the deals at
http://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/greatdeals-funbooks.cfm
If you are single you should also go to the Hard Rock Hotel while you are there..the women there are unnnnnbelieveable. To get into the pool area, just tell them you want to play at one of the bar machines. They also have a fun book listed at the site above (Get the coupon from the What's on tourist magazine). It is worthwhile because you get free chicken wings at mr lucky's a shot glass, match play...etc. Good deal if you are going to check out the babes.
Also check out this article if you want to get some bargains..this guy is my hero.
http://www.usatoday.com/life/travel/leisure/2000/ltl114.htm
Here is another good site
http://www.bigempire.com
The Strat poker room is no more. My suggestion is to try and make the Mandalay Bay 10am tourney. It will finish up about 1/2 hour before the noon tourney at Luxor and you can easily walk from one to the other. Both are populated with average skill players learning the tourney ropes. The Orleans also has a regular schedule of low limit tourneys.
...
Well the streak did end at 10 :(
I played one last night and ended up in 5th. Here is the final hand.
We are 5 handed. Blinds are 200-400. I have 1700 before posting. I have Ad2cKs7s in the BB. The button calls as does the SB. Button has me covered.
Flop is 7d3cQh.
I decide to lead out with my nut-low draw and only 2 players in. Only the button calls.
Turn is Kh.
With 2 pair and still a nut low draw, I decide to bet out again. Button calls.
River is 3s.
I throw in my final 100 and the button calls. Button shows AAxx. I had him until the river when the board paired. He also had a low draw but I don't think it was the nut low.
Is leading out with nut-low draw with only 2 players reasonable? I hoped to knock 1 or both players out.
If the turn was a blank I was planning to check. Since it gave me 2 pair I felt comfortable committing to this hand.
Any comments?
Ken Poklitar
I would have check/called the flop, then bet out on the turn. Not just because the turn made you two pair, but if you're going to call the turn with your low draw any way, betting out after checking the flop will create doubt in the mind of your opponent as to what you're holding.
PG
Interesting option. The issue is if the turn comes a high brick. Do I check/call in hopes of a low river card or do I check/fold and leave myself with some chips to battle the next hand.
Ken Poklitar
This is more of a question then an answer. I would have committed to this hand as well. I like PokerGeek's suggestion of check calling then betting out, but I don't think it would have made a difference.
The pot is T3600 and you have T100 remaining. One of the worst cards you could have seen comes off on the river, why do you bet your last T100? Your opponent has no choice but to call getting 36:1 plus he has an opportunity to bust you out. If you check, there is a good chance he will bet out and you will have to call. There is also a chance he won't bet, and you could make a miracle comeback. This is pretty nit picky, but I would like your opinion.
Derrick
Good question! I will have to take the 5th on that one :)
Actually, I thought for a second or so to check but I couldn't imagine him checking but as you said if he did I could live to see another hand. Plus I was surprised he had AA. Most players with AA when it is folded to the button will raise.
Next time I will think about checking the river.
Ken Poklitar
I agree with Derrick and PokerGeek. I too would have been commited to this hand. Also, I would have bet the flop too. Heck, you might even have the best high hand. Also, notice that if your low gets counterfeited, you make 2 pair, which improves your chances of winning high (although you really want an ace to pop instead of a 2 but still...).
I think Derrick makes a good point about not betting the river. Of course you do call if he bets but no sane player would fold for an extra 100. But occasionnally you will see a player who did not notice you had only 100 left, especially online and who will check behind you.
Hey, what did you think ? , that you were going to make the money in every O8 tournament you played ??? :-)
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Actually a few weeks back there was a big pot between 2 players. The blinds were 100-200 or 200-400. On the river, player x bets. Player y who has 13 chips folds. He leaves himself with 1/15th of a BB.
Yeah I would call the 100 and why can't I get in the money every tourney?
Ken Poklitar
No-limit satellite: Ten players pay $120. Winner gets $1000 entry chip to big tourney plus $100 cash. Blinds start at 10-25. Players start with T400. Freezeout.
Fourth hand: I get AA. I have T390. Two players limp early. I make it 125 to go. First limper calls. (He'd won a pot, and so had about T500 at start of hand.)
Flop: K94(rb)
He bets 100, I go all in, he calls. I have AA. He has KK. No help comes and I'm out.
Did I play this right? (Only second time playing no limit.)
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
I'd made it 200-225 pre-flop with the callers, but no didn't to badly, that early, you could've avoided getting busted by a set of KKK's.
been there too, only had AA cracked with JJ. bet simliar to you. I reflected only to realize that all in preflop might have made difference. If not that hand then most probably in similiar hands, in future.
I think you did fine other then not spiking an Ace on the river!
Although there is a chance this player has 99 or 44, it seems unlikely he has KK since he didn't re-raise you. If the flop is Q94, he might make the same bet and call your re-raise and you win a nice monster pot.
Ken Poklitar
Yes, you played it fine. 125 is a reasonable raise, and will often get you heads-up against 1 player, which is good. Of course, this being a satellite, you shouldn't care how many you play against, as long as you charged them enough preflop.
Since the money is so shallow, there is no way you can get away from this hand postflop. I mean, just because the guy bets out doesn't mean anything, as he could be betting top pair, second pair, bluffing, or anything else really. You don't want to just call the flop, because if he's semi-bluffing he might catch (for free, so to speak).
Too bad you lost. Next satellite. The cost of this satellite is reasonable, but they should give you more chips or start the blinds lower.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I just got back from Tunica. I played in my first big tournament (with no success, as expected). I had done well in side action and had won two satellites in four attempts so I decided to go for it.
It was $500 entry limit holdem with 216 entries, paying 27 places. Players start with T500. Each round is one hour. Blinds started at 5-15, bets 15-30. (Big blind = small bet increased by round: 15, 30, 50, 100, 150, 200, etc., so major exodus would be third and fourth rounds. I was out in third round.)
A lady two seats to my right ran over the table and had accumulated T3000 by the time I was busted. She played most hands. I saw her go to the river three times and make a straight holding T5!!!!! By this point I knew she was no expert, but I wasn't sure earlier.
First confrontation (1st round): I raised (first in) on the button with J9o on a blind steal. Lady calls in BB. Flop came Queen-rags. She checked, I bet (steal again), She raised, I folded. This made an early (false) impression on me that she might be an excellent player I should watch out for.
Second confrontation (2nd round): I had T435. I was in middle position with JJ. Two players limped. I raised. I would normally call with JJ after two limpers, but I was desperately trying to buy the button and shut out the good player on my immediate right and the lady two seats to the right, but they both called, as did the limpers. So five saw the flop of 8d,5h,3d. Two limpers checked, I bet, good player folded, lady raised, limpers folded, I called, so it was heads up. Turn came Qs. I checked, she bet, I folded. At this time I still respected her play, but the main problem was that I didn't have the guts to call her down for 120 more (turn, and probably river) out of my remaining T315. After seeing her play later, she could easily have cold called preflop with something like 89. On the other hand, she might not reraise preflop with QQ or AQd. I didn't know where I was. This was a make or break hand if I stayed to the river. (In a live game, I might have check-called to the river with an opponent I didn't regard as tight.) If I had stayed I would have put in T240 (or T120 that I had not already put in) for a T705 pot, which would have made me comfortable for a couple more hours. If I lost, I'd have T195 left (with 30-60 stakes). By the way, I believe this lady was knocked out in the fifth round, and the tournament went ten or eleven.
Any advice, comments, opinions? Was I too tight or weak?
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
I don't know Dave. I'm getting ready to play in my second major in the fall at Fox, and then Taj in DEC. If it was your first major, it sounds like you where too timid. Kinda sounds like my first one. I was way too tight. 500$ NL at TAJ last year, hung around for a bit, but missed some huge opportunities. Hopefully a different story this year. Playin again Aug 17 at Trops NL tourney. It's my birthday!!!!!
that is all,
dannyboy :o)
I think you should have definitely called down your JJ in fact I woulda re raised on the flop or check raised the turn.. I'm not sure if this is correct but you can't just bleed away folding in spots like these
Playin again Aug 17 at Trops NL tourney. It's my birthday!!!!!
You might want to confirm with the Trop that the NL tourney is the 17th. This month has 5 Fridays and the person I spoke to at the Trop said that the NL tourney was on the 24th.
FWIW.
Scott...
On hand 1, I tend to not try to many button blind steals in the 1st round. I have found most players will defind their blinds when they have lots of chips. I also would have folded to the raise since you have nothing.
On hand 2, I think you should have re-raised on the flop. She could have A8 or 2 hearts. On the turn I would probably check/call and do the same on the river. I agree this could have been a make or break hand but you do have an overpair to the flop.
Ken Poklitar
Hand 1 is fine. Just make sure after this that if you do have/flop a big hand on the button, you don't slow-play it, as people will be inclined to play back at you more freely now that they know you'll fold.
Hand 2, as others have said, I would call her down. Yes, it's a big fraction of your stack, but even against an unknown player you'll win often enough to justify it (i.e., pot odds). This early in the tourney, you can't be playing survival poker. You must be playing to win chips and avoid losing chips pretty much the same way you would in a ring game.
In my experience, you'll find many fewer loose, passive players in a tourney vs. a ring game, but many more loose, aggressive players. Tourneys are the only poker game where loose, aggressive isn't a bad thing to be (it's not optimal, but it's a lot better than loose, passive).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
There is a recent thread on RGP started by Abdul on tournament strategy. There seemed to be a general consensus that loose aggressive was optimal for tournament play.
I know there are always problems with precise definitions of these terms, but I was wondering if you've seen the threads and your thoughts on same.
Thanks,
Pat
I played in that same tourney last year and there were twice as many entries. I wonder why ? 1st hand - I usually don't try to steal blinds in the early rounds. 2nd hand - I would have definitely reraised on the flop. The fact that she was trying to limit the field tells me that she did have an eight and wanted to get the others with overcards like KQo or QJs out of the pot. So I'm confident that you had her beat. If I had to bet on what she held, I would say A8s. As for been too timid on your 1st major, yeah you were. But then again so was I and probably that goes for most out there.
I've played mostly low to low-mid limit poker, 4-8 to 10-20. I also freerolled in 2 of the no limit qualifying tournaments offered by another web page. But whatever. My question is, I entered my first live no-limit tournament while on vacation at the Orleans in Vegas. I placed 3rd out of 65 or so. I don't tink it is a fluke but I dunno. Also, I've been frustrated online. The 5-10 game is tough, I've only broken even there, but plugged a few leaks on the way.
I dunno. I'll post here more regularly as well as show up in December for the US Poker Championships. Good luck and keep up the fight.
George Benson
I strongly recommend that you consider going to Foxwoods for the WPF rather than the Taj for the USPC. I've been at FW for 3 years now, and the WPF is a great tournament. You get lots of play for your money, lots of play in the satellites, and the side games are very good. I've only been to the Taj once for last year's USPC, but it sucked. You had very little play in the events or satellites, and it pretty much only took 2 or 3 beats to knock you out, IN THE FIRST LEVEL! The satellites were a total joke, with the NL satellites being done in like 40 minutes. Even in the first level, one raise and one reraise preflop, and you're all-in. No room to make decisions, just wait for a reasonable hand and jam it up.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Maybe it's inexpience, but I was all in on my second hand. Dealt KK raised to 60 to me, raised to 180 immediately, stacks near 400. Luckily nothing flopped and I raised all in. But even your first small NL tourney can have a few decisions.
George,
You need talent to keep you from paying off players in a tournament, and you need luck to pick up enough pots along the way to the final table.
Good Luck
Mark
Hi,
Played a small rebuy NLHE tournament last night. There are two things I think I did wrong which I'd like to hear the thoughts of others on.
There are about 50,000 chips in play. Eight places are paid and as usual the lowest three or four spots are very small payouts relative to the others.
With nine players left, two tables of four and five, I'm UTG at the 4-handed table. Button has to post a blind of 500 and has 100 left. The second blind has plenty of chips, as does the cutoff. I have 3600.
With one player to go before the final table and the button having only one chip left, what's the strategy?
I picked up JTs. Looks like a good hand to bust the button. I raised to 2000, and the cutoff reraised all-in.
I've made a mistake here, haven't I?
There's a happy ending because the button called, as did I, we both busted and I ended up in the money on the "more chips rule".
The other one is embarrassing really. A few hands earlier, with about 11 players left, I pick up AKs second to speak after the blinds. UTG, who has plenty of chips but has only just moved to the table and is pretty much a stranger to me, raises to 2500, and I've got 3000 or so. I passed. I am now thinking that this is exactly the kind of lily-livered play that gets you 8th place money instead of a real payoff. Do you agree?
Cheers,
Guy.
I think raising TJs is a mistake as is passing with AKs you basically summed it up yourself you should be playing to win but the problem with TJs utg is it gives the whole table a chance to swing at you and its not a very good hand heads up... AKs you shoulda hoped to double through on
Although JTs looks nice 4 handed, I would pass on this one and let the BB or the cutoff attempt to bust the button. With JTs you need to hit your hand. If the button has Qx he is a favorite over you. There are a lot of hands that he can be a favorite over you plus he is not going to fold anything.
Yeah I would push it all-in and try to double up.
Ken Poklitar
You dont have enough in chips toplay the j-10. If you had 6K I would make a minimum raise just to trap the nearly all in, and hope to check it down. Of course I would muck if it was re-raised behind me. With your stack the J-10 has to go in the muck.
On the AK hand, I have laid down AK preflop before without putting a chip into the pot. Yours was not an occassion to do so.
JTs is certainly better than a random hand, but not by much. You'll only win like 55-58% of the time, so it's not that great of a hand to play here, even if the other blind folds and gives you dead money. The thing is, if you knew it was going to be you and the short-stack heads-up, then fine, go ahead and make the play. But, with any little chance that the other 2 players are coming in with decent hands, you can't risk all your chips with JTs.
I would have either folded, or just called. By calling, my goal is to get everyone to just call, and gang up on the short-stack. Now, if you do this, you can't stop the short-stack from folding postflop is he catches nothing, but he really should call with almost anything for only 100 more. His hand should be hopeless before he folds it. If he does, you then wait him out until the blinds come around again (in only 2 hands), and he's forced all-in. If somebody at the other table goes broke and gives this guy 8th place money, no problem for you.
As for the AK, I agree with your post-mortem. I would have gone all-in with it, knowing that I'm ahead the large majority of the time, essentially tied a minority of the time, and only really way behind a very small fraction of the time. Here's an excellent chance to double up and then some (the blinds) and take a real run at the top spots.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
To get the button to bust out, you don't need to be so aggressive. You risked too much here. You don't even need to play. He will not win and is no threat to you. Don't rush it along. Wait for a better hand, make a smaller raise (or call). You don't need to be so focused on busting him out (unless there is bonus money for busting out the last out-of-the-money player). Someone else will do it and soon. Big mistake in my opinion, but understandable. I think you know what you should have done in the second hand.
C
What's the vig on the mirage tournaments? I notice that it's 60/40 (unlimited). does the house take 20 from the original buy-in? this seems high.
I'm pretty sure the vig is $20, but I don't see why you think that's high? Yes, it is a pretty large percentage of your original buyin, but with the rebuys most people invest $100-200, at which point the percentage is pretty reasonable. Plus, they make less money on this tournament than they would if you all played in the regular cash games for the same period. So, from that point of view, it's a bargain for the players.
Don't get me wrong, I wish it were cheaper. But $20 vig for a tournament that has plenty of play in it isn't a raw deal compared to the market. Would you rather pay $10 vig for a tournament that's done in 1/4 the time? I wouldn't.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
2d,
I think the Mirage has the best local tournaments in Vegas. The $60 buy-in with $40 rebuys is not that bad of a deal. The no-limit $60 buy-in has alot of players rebuying to build the prize pool. For the no-limit tournament they do not use antes so it gives a good player a chance to use his skill. They increase the blinds every thirty minutes. They usually have five or six tables reserved for the tournament.
Good Luck
Mark
Greg, you make a good point about the multiple rebuys. I guess the $20 just looks big when it's staring at you on a fact sheet. I rarely play tournaments, and rarely go nuts on the rebuys, so a $20 vig on a $140 buy in is a little highish, but reasonable.
Mark is the limit tournament the same as the no limit with respect to the number of rebuys that people make obviously not the "same", but similar in that people usually make multiple rebuys? Thanks again
2d,
I played the limit tournament a few times. Once I had several tournament stars at the table. The ones that were losing did anywhere from two to three rebuys plus the add-on.
Recently, when I was there I was at a table that was playing very tight, but there were some rebuys and most players do the add-on. So, I guess it depends which table you are at. But, as soon as you are eligible for a rebuy you should do it, especially if it encouages other to do it too.
I usually do the rebuy as soon as I am eligible. When I play the Mirage unlimited rebuy tournaments I usually spend $140 total cost. If I've been unlucky $220.
Could someone run the following sim for me assuming all three hands are all in before the flop
| Hand 1: Jh Th |
| Hand 2: Td 9d |
| Hand 3: 3s 3c |
thanks in advance,
Derrick
For 250k hands:
Hand 1: Jh Th : 37.20%
Hand 2: Td 9d : 26.31%
Hand 3: 3s 3c : 36.49%
Ken Poklitar
Thanks
the EXACT figures are:
JhTh vs Td9d vs 3c3s
Variations:
1370754 possible 5-card boards. 12548 of them are three-way splits.
JhTh
483826 win's 47855 two-way splits.
Td9d
330491 win's 47855 two-way splits.
3c3s
496034 win's 0 two-way splits.
It's getting down to it and the stack is getting critical. What kind of hand do you look for when you have to make an all in move? I'll give a couple scenerios (all N/L hold em): 1)You have about 3x big blind and want to make an all in move to either steal blinds or (better) double through to get back in the game. 2) you have 1.5x big blind and are on the button. 3) you have less than the big blind and are about 4 hands away from the BB. My thoughts: 1) lots of time left don't throw it away with junk. Play premium hands only (big pairs, AK). 2) Some time to wait but need to go with something. This is where it gets fuzzy. I would think any two face cards? But what about Ax Kx Qx? Would that be better than small pairs? or would suited connectors (J10,98) work? 3) I'm more confused about this than even #2. Again, do you go with any ace or king or would something suited or connected be better? or is the best bet to wait as long as possible and take your chances with a blind hand. Of course the best answer to this is not to get short stacked in the first place but stuff happens.
Whether you're in the money yet, and if not, how close to the money, is a critical factor. If you can make the money, or move up the ladder, simply by sitting out a hand or 2, then often you should do so when you're this short-stacked. Also, a key thing to watch is the table break issue. If they're about to break your table, then you can take the maximum time before folding and survive until they move you elsewhere. In some tourneys, the order in which the tables will break is posted, and by counting the empty seats you can predict how soon your table will be broken. Again, this issue doesn't matter much unless you're in or close to the money.
However, if it is still a long way to the money, then survival doesn't mean that much unless you can accumulate chips while doing so. So, in this situation, you're picking a hand that makes you a reasonable money favorite, not just waiting for the likely best hand before the blind reaches you. For example, in your scenario 2, you're on the button. If your hand is something like QJs, you're very likely to get something better before the blinds come around at a full table. Yet, you should play this hand all-in, because it will beat the random hand in the big blind about 60% of the time, which, with the dead money from teh small blind, is a good gamble.
So, the answer to your questions depends upon the stage of the tourney.
scenario 1, 3x BB: IMO, stealing is much better than getting called. If you steal, you finish with 4.5x every time. If you get called by the big blind, you finish with 6.5x when you win, nothing when you lose. You have to be better than a 2:1 favorite for you to prefer being called, and you aren't that big a favorite very often in HE when you're all-in preflop. So, unless you have a big pair where the caller will maybe have no overcards, you'd rather they fold. This is especially true if you're in or near the money, where every hand you survive can mean more cash. So, as for the type of hands I'll play here, it depends. Almost as important as my hand is the likelihood that somebody is going to call my raise. If some guy is playing sheriff all the time, and he's behind me, then I need a very good hand to go all-in with, certainly a hand that is statistically likely to be the best hand I'll see before the big blind reaches me. Same if the big blind is a player who will call a lot. Now, if the non-blind players aren't likely to come in after me unless they've got a very good hand, and the blinds are guys who also won't defend with anything other than decent cards, I might raise with any 2 cards.
scenario 2, 1.5x on the button: If we're in or near the money, I fold everything but AA or KK if I can move up to a higher payday by folding around to the blinds. I simply don't have enough chips to make a serious assault on the top places, even after I double or triple up, so I'll just try to move onto or up the ladder by default. If we're not in the late stages, I'll raise on the button with any hand that is about a 55% favorite over the random cards held by the big blind (as I expect him to call with anything). If there is a decent chance that the big blind will fold (there are a few such players out there), then I might raise with anything that has any semblance of playability, e.g., 76s and the like. I'll do this even though I expect to find a better hand before the blind reaches me because when I find a better hand next time, I'll now have 3.5x or more chips to play with, and next time even if I'm first in there will be more players behind me who might find a big hand (or, the pot might get raised in front of me everytime I have a semi-decent hand like AJo, preventing me from playing it).
scenario 3, less than the big blind: If you're in the late stages, fold it all if you can make money by doing so, everything but AA maybe. If it's not late, then play any hand that makes you a reasonable chip favorite, i.e., every hand where you have pot odds whether it's heads-up, short, or a multi-way pot.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I busted out of a tourney yesterday on this hand. I think that I could have played it differently and while not quite maximising EV certainly maximising the chances of survival.
It was a deep money tourney with each player receiving 7000 in chips with blinds starting at 25/25. The hand took place just after the blinds had moved up to 100/100 and rebuys were no longer allowed. I had moved tables and only played about 20 hands but my opponent had already grossly overbet on 2 occasions raising pre-flop 1500 into a pot containing 200, then showing QJs.
She has about 25000, I have 6000 and am dealt QQ in the second blind. She again bets 1500, I reraise all-in. She turns over AQ, spikes an Ace on the flop and I make my way to the car park for the long drive home.
Analysing the hand, the first thing that occured to me was that my opponents play could not be greatly faulted apart from the pre-flop over-raising. Raising with AQ is not a mistake and calling my reraise is a minor error- she was a 33% chance in a 12000 pot for a call of 4500.
After some calculations, I believe that against this kind of loose player, pre-flop calling is a far better play. If a King or Ace appears on the flop, I should have checked and folded to a bet, otherwise going all-in.
I looked at the worst case scenario where the opponent could have AK, AQ, KQ, or Ax, so that an Ace or King will hit the flop 37% of the time (7 overcards in the pack) - so I check and fold 37% of the time, on occasion therefore folding the best hand.
On a flop without overcards I assume that the opponent calls the flop bet 50% of the time (and wins 25% of that 50%). So I have tilted the odds well in my opponents favour. (I have ignored pairs as I don't think they make much difference overall). My estimate of the opponent calling the post-flop bet with overcards 50% of the time is obviously speculative and quite crucial to the play of the hand.
This method of playing the hand showed a profit of 1800 as compared to 2000 by going all-in. Most importantly the chances of being eliminated are greatly reduced.
Sorry for the length of the post and I would appreciate comments from any of you who have made it this far.
Situational factors may well over-ride your mathematics. Specifically, how likely is your opponent to fold to your pre-flop raise, and if you just call, how likely is it that someone will call behind you (which you don't want).
Against a player playing as you describe, I would normally re-raise to get heads-up with them with this kind of hand. In the event you got all the money in as a big favourite so I wouldn't be too self-critical.
I think the possibility of your opponent having a pair, whether larger or smaller, should not be ignored, and that the numbers you produce with your calculation are entirely dependent on your assumptions, and I simply don't know how valid these are.
Andy.
Well, one of us made a math error (and I might be me, as I did the calcs pretty quickly), since using your numbers above I got an EV of only +1,027.50 for playing the hand cautiously, not +1800. If my numbers are correct, you can see why your caution actually will cost you a lot of EV, not just a little.
Plus, if it's early in the tourney, then winning chips (i.e., maximizing EV) is still much more important than survival alone. Plus, you can't just check-and-call, check-and-fold a big pair whenever an overcard hits the board. It is just too weak to make you a winner in the long run. You only get big pairs like this a couple of times, if at all, in a tourney, so you can't play them so cautiously that you don't win big.
I think you played the hand perfectly, given this opponent. Once the flop came down, you just can't know what she's holding, and you'll be guessing. Get all the money in when you're almost certain you're well ahead, and hope she doesn't get lucky.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree with Andy and Greg. I would push it in. These types of players will call your big raise not only with AQ but also with small pairs.
Of course it is upsetting that he hit one of his 3 clean outs but that is poker.
Ken Poklitar
:
I disagree with going all in. I always thought the object early in a tournament is to survive first and gather chips second. I believe the only time to go all in early is when you believe they will fold or you hold AA.
What do you guys think about limping in with pocket aces from early position in order to trap someone.
If you expect to get raised, then limp in. One of the reasons why is you do not want the blinds to get a free play and beat you with a funny hand, and it will be harder for you to put someone on a hand. If you raise you will usually get other pairs to call, suited aces, suited connectors, and ace-big. It will be easier for you to read your opponents and put them on a hand. But, if you are short stacked it is probably better to limp, and hope you get some action from lessor hands. I think it is well worth the risk of trying to win a big pot if you are short stacked, because you will probably go broke anyway.
Good Luck
Mark
The depth of your stack is a huge factor here. If a limp-reraise by you will get all or most of the money into the middle, and you expect a raise behind you pretty often, then yes, it is a perfectly valid play. However, you should be pretty certain that you will get raised behind.
But, if a limp-reraise by you will only get like 10% of the money into the middle, then it's a very dangerous play. When you do this in NL, you are marking yourself for AA, and with most of the money still in front of you, it is so risky. If I'm sure you have AA I can now call for 10% with almost anything, as I will be able to play my hand perfectly postflop, while you'll have no idea what I've got.
It also depends a lot upon how they're going to react. If you're going to get called for all the money by 1 opponent, that's great. You're the prohibitive favorite, and they can't get away from their hand. If you'll end up against 5 players, it's still a good thing, but you're now going to lose it all maybe 60% of the time.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Can some of you help me with some numbers for long term win rates for Paradise tournies?
I'm looking for return on investment as well as hourly win rates for various tourney levels.
Thanks a bunch in advance.
Bill
Mine are embarrassingly low. In the black but we are talking cents per hour rather than dollars :-).
Nonetheless the experience gained playing split-pot games proved invaluable in Vegas and I really play to improve my limit poker rather than for any serious earn.
Andy.
I figure it like this. I play better than most at the 20.00 tourney level and can get to top three about 70% of the time at best. From there it is a crap shoot, so I figure to hit an equal # of 1st,2nd,and 3rds, again at best. Playing 30 tournaments I get 21 in the money: 7 x 100.00, 7 x 60.00 and 7 X 40.00 for a total of 1400 in return with a cost of 660.00 for a profit of 740.00 or about 24.00 per hour. This, I think, is my optimum.
Now, if I only actualy make 50% in the money, and get more thirds than firsts, my total return could be 940.00, net profit 280.00 or about 9.00 per hour.
I put myself somewhere in that range although admittedly, I don't have enough long term results to prove it as yet.
Bill,
My best so far is with the $10 Omaha tournies. I have played 27 and made about $8 per tourney. I think I have hit the money about 60%.
I have played 60 Hold'em of various levels and I am only making a buck or two per tourney. I hit the money about 50% but mostly 3rd.
Long term I can probably get to 55% money and 30% ROI.
Ken Poklitar
Over 182 tourneys of Stud, Stud/8, Omaha/8, and HE, none over $20 limit, 45% in the money. Once in the money, 48% first, 30% second, 22% third, 4.78/hr win rate (I'll not be quitting my day job any time soon!).
I use a standard length of one hour per tourney for working out the rate/hour. That's a very conservative number, since my busted out games run anywhere from 1/2 hr to 1 hr, but the money games seldom run over 1 hr.
Stud: $10 - 50% in money out of 14, 43% 1st, 57% 2nd, $5/hr; $20 - 0 wins 3 games. Those tourneys have gone away.
Stud/8: I had a 56% win rate at $10 stud/8, 41 games, 57% 1st, 13% 2nd, 30% 3rd, $6.32/hr; it's gone now also. For $20 stud/8, total 85 tourneys, 44% in the money, 46% 1st, 35% 2nd, 19% 3rd, $5.29/hr.
Omaha/8: $5 game gone now, 100% in money, $12/hr for 2 games. $10 game 50% in money, 10 games, $4.80/hr. $20 Omaha/8, 0% in money 3 games.
HE: $5 game - 31% in money, 13 games; $10 game - 36% in money 11 games. HE's my least favorite game.
I don't think it's as much of a crap shoot as others have indicated once you're in the money. You have to adjust to short-handed play, be careful with the starting hands you decide to play with, and hope you don't get the bring-in too often with rotten hands that you have to fold to preserve some sort of stack. I've come back from T57 and T150 to win $20 stud/8 after getting to the money.
Have fun!
> I don't think it's as much of a crap shoot as others > have indicated once you're in the money.
Well, as to exactly how much of a crapshoot, I'm not sure I can quantify, but there is a large majority of luck at this stage. Maybe the smaller events get down to 3 players quicker (due to more loose play), but in the $50 and $100 HE events, I've almost always reached the money during the 600/1200 stage, and sometimes not until the 1000/2000 stage. When the 2 or 3 of you are only sharing 4-7 big bets between you, luck is pretty huge.
In my last $100 tourney, I knocked out the guy in 3rd place during the last hand of the 600/1200 level. My remaining opponent was outchipped 7400 to 600. He won 4 times in a row, from behind each time, to beat me. Ai-yah!
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This is from the $500 limit buy-in tourney at the 2nd Mid-America Classic in Tunica.
Could I have realistically escaped?
Blinds of 200-400, limits 400-800. I have 3600. With only 108,000 chips in play, nobody really has a commanding stack.
No tournament "stars" are left in this event, and most of the players remaining have been pretty passive. Dealt K-9 offsuit sitting in the cutoff, I make a decision to raise and try to pick up the blinds. The button calls and the small blind calls.
Flop comes J-10-8. Small blind bets, I just call (perhaps a mistake in retro, perhaps not). My plan is to not play this draw aggressively, if I get there, fine, if not, I can play another hand. After my call here, I have 2400.
An offsuit 7 comes on the turn, the small blind bets, I call.
The river comes the Queen, the board is rainbow. The small blind bets, I raise all-in (1400) ... the button now also raises.
Obviously once the button moves in, it's too late for me. The button shows A-K, having hit the gutshot Queen, making the bigger straight.
Earl,
I think the only option you may have had is to raise on the flop. This will usually turn the bettor into the caller or he might even give up if he does not hit anything on the turn. You can usually tell if he hesitates when he calls your raise. If he does hesitate, fire again on the turn. I say this because it was your intention of playing the hand as cheaply as possible, and it appears from your post that you wanted to play another hand if you didn't win.
Good Luck
Mark
Calling stations always give me trouble in tourneys. We had 23 players left and this particular player had done the same thing earlier and hit a gutshot on the river -- only in that hand, I had bet throughout the hand.
Earl, you ask---"could I have reallistically escaped?" Absolutely! Take that k-9 offsuit and fire it in the muck, instead of trying to steal the blinds from the cutoff in front of a calling station on the button. Then when you flop an open ended straight, rather than being aggressive, you allow the button to draw cheaply to a gutshot on the river. No offense intended but I have found that many bad results are due to our initial decisions. Here's the good news---You can learn from this and when a situation like this comes up in the future---you'll make the right decision. Good Luck!
Hehe. That calling station had A-K ... *that* is why he wasn't going anywhere before the flop. Even the calling station would've dumped a truly bad hand. I actually think he made a wise decision to just call preflop. At this stage of the tourney, everyone was "in the zone" trying not to make any fatal decisions. Him calling instead of reraising was the similar, yet earlier move to my just calling after the flop with what I thought was the best draw -- don't get eliminated if you miss. Had he reraised preflop, he would've either alerted us to the strength of his hand, or might've got trapped against A-A or K-K.
While it's true that our "initial decisions" create bad results, you'll not win a tournament without the proper amount of aggression -- and that amount is usually more than your opponents. If you cower down because you have a calling station at the table, you will most likely be anted away -- unless you catch more than your share of cards. There are times to play conservatively in tournaments, but alas, with 3600 in chips and the blinds going up shortly, this was not the time.
My question had to do with the "after" part of the K-9, from the flop on. The decision as to whether or not to reraise is more difficult than appears. Even today, I'm not sure if he would've folded for 2 bets or not. A lot of limit players will see a flop like that and think, "golly, I got 4 outs for the straight and 6 outs for my Ace or King, I got 'pot odds,' I gotta call!!"
However, I question myself here because most tournaments I've lost in the last few years have usually been due to a failure to raise at a critical juncture (i.e., the 1998 WSOP) rather than from overaggression. But I have lost more than my share from being too aggressive (can you believe that moron called me with J-10 when I moved all-in on him with 3-5 offsuit....).
Soooo, I'm still wondering, can anyone get away from a hand like that with a flop like that?
Incidentally, where has everyone gone? There used to be a lot more tournament posters on here.
I'm not sure where everyone has gone myself. It would be good to hear more from you Earl !
I wish Big John would come back and post some too, I learned a ton of useful stuff from his posts.
Andy.
Your initial raise is just fine, as long as there really appeared to be decent chance that you'd pick up the blinds.
On the flop, there is no good choice, only a least bad choice. That is a super-scary flop. If you raise, you could easily be raising into the nuts, or at least 2-pair or better. Yet, if you don't raise, the button is behind you, and you probably want him out. Also, what if the SB is semi-bluffing with the open-end straight draw alone, or maybe 2nd or 3rd pair plus the draw? If you play aggressively, and he misses, you probably win on the river.
If you're sure the button will fold, then just calling here is OK, as you're getting 8:1 and you do have the gutshot draw (and it's pretty damn hard to put this guy on AK, the killer hand for you, since he didn't reraise preflop yet he bet out on this scary board; basically, he played his hand ass-backwards IMO).
When you miss on the turn, and he bets again, I only see 2 options. You put him on a bluff or a scared 1-pair hand, and try to win right there with a raise. Or, you fold. I don't see calling as a realistic option here. There is an excellent chance you only have 4 outs, and you're only getting 5.5:1 here. Either you're too far behind to call, or he will fold to your raise.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
He made the straight on the turn.
Ken Poklitar
.
I wouldn't raise on the flop. Why spend more money on a draw then you need to.
On the turn once you make your straight, I would raise.
Ken Poklitar
Ken,
I mentioned raising on the flop for several reasons. The first is that it is cheaper to raise on the flop, next he may fold or make a hesitant call, so you know he will fold if the turn does not help him. Finally, you will probably get him to check to you on the turn, so you have the option of taking a free card.
Good Luck
Mark
We are nearing the end of level three. I have T925 when the hand begins. The blinds are T25 and T50. A fairly tight player in first position opens for T175 . It is folded around to me in the SB. Melissa Hayden is in the BB holding appx. T1000. The original raiser has appx. T1100. What do you feel to be my best play to maximize my EV or to build a big stack? Why? What would you do in this position?
I just call right here, then bet the pot on the flop no matter what comes. He will set you in for the rest of it or call for the rest of it on the turn.
Here's why. If you reraise out of the SB,you will let him get away from what is probably a lesser pair with minimal injury. If an Ace doesn't come on the flop, he's going to believe that he probably has the best hand anyway.
I don't know, I favour a re-raise against most opponents that I face because most of them will call and getting it all-in pre-flop is the best you can do with Aces.
However, you do say that UTG is a tight player. But what is his perception of you ? If he is tight, then he is going to have a good hand to raise UTG. How many of those hands will he put down to your re-raise ?
I would be slightly concerned that if I flat call I might let him get away from hands like AK or QQ/JJ on the flop (say if a K flops in the latter case). Depends on the player but I would be more inclined to go all-in.
Andy.
I want the AK or AA maybe even the QQ heads up.
If Hayden goes over the top then I will call her all in. WIth the original raiser mucking.
Eighter way I am heads up with the best starting hand.
Chico,
Just call. If the big blind calls you may get some extra money. The BB is not getting in cheap, and a pair of aces is still the favorite against two players, especially if they call with AK or a pair. On the flop, depending on what it looks like, you may want to check to the raiser just to get some money out of him. For example, you could get real lucky. The UTG could have AK and you get a flop of K 7 4. He could not resist betting. A reason for checking to the raiser is if the player usually bets the pot or overbets it. But, make sure that you can put him on a hand before you check it to him, because you do not want to give him a free card to beat you. Let's say the flop is J 8 3, you check and he checks it back. Now, you know that he has either AK or AQ, so you hope on the turn an A, K, or Q falls. These are just some of the things I like to do.
Good Luck
Mark
I agree with Rounder. I'd make it 400. Melissa almost certainly folds, and the original raiser almost certainly calls. Then, there is 850 in the pot, and you have 525 left. When you bet the flop, he'll pretty much have to call, often even with an unimproved AK. The only way he gets away from his hand is if he has a medium pair and 2 or more overcards flop. Plus, you can always check the flop and expect him to bet you all-in whether he hit the flop or not.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I dont mean to sound disrepectful, but the fact that Hayden is in the BB has no real impact here. If anything it is one more reason to raise. I dont want anyone flopping a cheap set (or hidden 2 pair) on me. I make it about 400-- everyone who called is now pot stuck (including you) with respect to your stack.
Calling here gives people a cheap shot to bust you--because where they may get off a hand when missed (ie AQ on a flop of K-4-3) you cant. If you call I can pretty much assure you that all your money goes in on the flop hit or miss. This in effect gives them implied odds.
Going all in is a mistake (just not as large as calling). You want to bet enough ot lock up a call on the flop--while betting small enough to get them to call here also. 400 seems about right.
I usually do not post results as they are usually irrelevant. I did raise to T500. Melissa folded as did the original raiser. I won a small pot. If I do not raise Melissa calls with pocket 8's. I think either play of raising to T400 or calling is good. Ifeel my raise was a little to big. I think going allin to be an inferior play. I honestly feel this to be a perfect trap situation, because the chips aren't deep enough to affect my positional disadvantage. I am risking getting busted by not raising but the rewards seem to be there. Ilose pot equity by allowing in the BB cheaply. I think the best play here is to raise T350-T400.
Chico,
I'll tell you why I think the raise is incorrect against a tight player UTG. This tight player probably knows you know he is playing tight. If you raise him what does he think you have? Well, he thought you had aces probably and he was right.
If the raiser was in middle to late position I could see raising this guy, because that would mean you think he is weak, but I would not raise a tight UTG player. So, I basically disagree with most of the posts.
Good Luck
Mark
Maybe you're right about not going all in, however one thing is for sure, if I had some other hand with which I wanted to raise (AK, KK, QQ) I would be going all-in and I'm sure some other posters would too. In which case it is a bit of a giveaway to a good player if you just put half your chips in here.
Andy.
If the BB was a player that might fold if you just called then I might just call. But I am sure Melissa would call with most hands since there would be 400 in the pot and she needs to only add 125.
So I would raise it to 400 or so to try to make it headsup.
Ken Poklitar
Playing in a limit tournament. We are down to 14 players from the starting 50 and about 5 prizes are paid. The limits are 600-1200 with blinds of 300-600, leaving the majority of players horribly shortstacked. However, the final table will see the blinds drop back 2 levels, AND the game will go to no limit. I personally have 1300 left after posting the BB of 600 and I get two black eights.
UTG raises to 1200. All fold to the cutoff who cold calls. SB folds. What to do, what to do...? I decided to fold, but am not sure about the decision (especially since I spiked my 8 and would have won). Am I so shortstacked that I should be committed?
Later in the tournament, I am on the button with Ah8d. All fold to me. Limits are still 600-1200 and I have 1000 left. The two blinds are both knockout crazy and at least one will certainly call if I raise. However, I may have the best hand and WANT them to call. Of course I am short stacked but there are 2 or 3 other people in similar situations to myself both on the current table and the other table.
I decided to raise all in and they both called, one with Js9s and the other with Kh7c. Any simulations available on this 3 way hand (K7o flopped two pair and knocked me out, for the results oriented)?
Curious about comments on my play of these two hands. I was thinking later that it seemed strange that I would commit all my chips with A8o but not 88. However, I believe in the "there are no good cards, just good situations" credo, and I felt the 88 was in a bad situation but the A8o was in a good situation.
I would have played the 88 and not the A8, depending upon the player count for the latter hand (you don't say how many are left).
For 88, you're getting 5.5:1, and you will make a set by the river about that often, which will almost always win. Basically, you need to win some chips before you're going to make the money, you just don't have enough to fold your way home. While this isn't a great spot, it is certainly +EV, so should be played. I wouldn't reraise preflop as that won't get anyone out. I would bet the flop no matter what it is, and hope that at least one if not both of them fold. Of course, if the 8 flopped, then I would consider slow-playing unless there are obvious straight/flush draws out.
If you were almost in the money on the A8 hand, I would fold it, since you are only about a 3:2 favorite over a random hand, and you say at least one of them is almost certain to call. However, if it looks like you're going to have to pay the blinds again before making the money, then I'd play it as it could easily be the best situation you'll get before the big blind comes around.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The A8o hand was two hands after the previous hand. Nothing had changed in the interim except for one of the short stacks on my table winning a hand (the hand where I had 88 and the raiser and coldcaller had JJ and QQ respectively, flop 3-4-7, turn 8, river x). There was still 14 players left.
I figured that when I had the 88 my absolute best hope was to be up against 4 overcards, in which case Im going to be in trouble, and thats assuming there are no overPAIRs, in which case I'd be a huge dog. With the A8o hand, I knew that I was a favorite over a random hand, so I'd rather put my money in when I have the best of it. If the best case scenario happens and they both fold, fine I've got a few extra chips. If one or both of them call, I will probably be a favorite and will then have enough chips to actually put in a full preflop raise and bet the flop, which is enough to put most of the table into short stacks. I wasn't so much concerned at having to pay the blinds before making the money; I simply wanted to make it to the final table and get the blind reduction and go to no limit! I figured I'd have to get through the blinds one more time before that would happen.
I wasn't so unsure about the A8 hand as I was about the 88 hand.
14 players and 5 in the money, I go with the A8 given your stack size. Like you say, you're going to be the favorite most of the time, but you will also get called most of the time, so it is a risky play. But, it's better than waiting for a better opportunity, because you're not very likely to find one before the blinds hit you.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I would have called the 88 and lead out the betting.
I agree with your raise with A8o. You are shortstacked and need to win a pot. Now is the time to try.
Ken Poklitar
Ah8d - 36.40 Js9s - 37.98% Kh7c - 25.62%
So the underdog won!
Ken Poklitar
I dont think you can call here.
Reason:
You will get knocked out too often in 3 way action with pocket 8's.
you will make trips about 1/5th of the time.. the other 4/5ths you will almost always lose.
That means 80% of the time your expectation on the tournament is reduced to 0. You will have about $6000 after you win this hand. Is having $6000 a full 4 times better than having $1300 in regards to your expectation on the tournament? I dont think so!
Someone (Greg) had mentioned this hand is +EV .. in a ring game I would agree.. but not in a tournament in this particular situation. You have +EV on chip accumulation but you will be giving up tournament expectation.
Joe wrote: "Someone (Greg) had mentioned this hand is +EV .. in a ring game I would agree.. but not in a tournament in this particular situation. You have +EV on chip accumulation but you will be giving up tournament expectation."
I don't think this can be so here. We are paying 5, and 14 remain. He's going to have to win some pots between now and making the money, or he won't get there. There are probably going to be quite a few hands dealt before we lose 9 players, maybe even very many. In this situation, there can't yet be much disconnect between EV on chip accumulation and EV in money expectation.
If you feel that 88 is very slightly +EV in a ring game, yet very slightly -EV in this tourney spot, then maybe you're right. If you think the difference between them is more than just a little, then I strongly disagree.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
since 1300 * 4 = 5200, I'd say 6000 probably is a full 4 times better in terms of expectation, since he's much too far from the money to fold his way in.
No-Limit Hold'em
When somebody limps in under-the-gun(UTG),it sometimes serves as a possible tell that they may have pocket AA or KK. But what does it tend to mean when somebody open-raises UTG only 2x the big blind at a full table, especially when the blinds are around $50 & $100 and they open-raise to $200? I haven't been playing no-limit long enough to know what it means more often than not. Rarely does this non-standard amount turn out to be AA or KK, at least where I play. When somebody makes this non-standard raise, I usually suspect two big cards like A-Q offsuit or there about.
I understand you've got to watch what they turn over to see what it means for a particular player, but I was just wondering if there might be a general meaning, like the limping with AA. And what's the logic behind that non-standard amount do you think(2x)?
I'm not sure there is much logic behind it, as I almost never see it from top players. I'm sure there is some use for it, but not a lot.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In tournaments the logic behind it may be simply to force small stacks to commit if they want to play while not getting commited yourself with your much larger stack.
One thing is for sure.. the person wants to get called by at least 1 person.
It may simply be to double the size of the game.
I think most of these 2x the BB raises come from limit players who are used to raise 2x the BB and don't see the purpose of raising more.
Nicolas
seems that most of the time it means (1)they want to induce a re-raise (2) it is a feeler to see if anyone will show some strength (3) deception.
a word of advise for both PL nad NL games...do not do "standard" things....keep them guessing, as you were here.
When I was at the orleans open I saw a few different examples of someone raising to 2x.
The 1st was a guy who was UTG with AA. He was fortunately for him re-raised since 4 players called him. The SB who would have called him would have hit a set with 55 and won a big pot. An hour or so later the same player made a huge raise with AA UTG so I guess he enjoyed varying his raises.
The 2nd was a guy sitting a few seats away who I heard him telling a lady next to him that he raises to 2x to get the riff-raff out when he has Axs.
I will keep to my 3x or 4x raises.
Ken Poklitar
Last year at the BARGE banquet Chris Ferguson noted that he ALWAYS likes to make 2-2.5 times the BB raises. His theory was why risk to much when you may have to muck, and why not let them call when you have a hand you want them to play with you with. I am not sure I agree with this, because I hate to let someone flop a set on me (or a cheap 2 pair) but then again, he won the WSOP, and I didn't.
I've played quite a bit of limit Omaha/8 before, but never Omaha high.
Last week i was dragged into a pot limit Omaha high tournament (no rebuys), and one interesting hand arose, early in the tournament when blinds were relatively small.
I was om the cutoff seat with AhKdKcTd and raised the potlimit after 4 people had limped. Is that a good play? I was pretty sure i had the best hand going, and my raise would likely buy me the button, and the initiative for later rounds.
The big blind called as did the limpers. The flop came Kh8h3h, giving me top set, but the flush was out already. However i held the Ah.
The big blind bet, there was 2 folds, and then a pot sized raise, a fold and i called, with the intention of raising the pot on the turn no matter what fell (it was 6d). Should i have reraised straight away on the flop? I wanted to wait for the turn, because a raise there would be enough to nearly put my opponents allin with no rebuys, with me holding the Ah, and a draw at the full if unfortunately called.
Anyway the big blind checked, middle position bet out and i raised the max. Both players, folded after some time, and asked me to show my hand. I showed them the Ah but told them if they want to see the other heart they should have paid for it.
Is this sort of play common in pot limit omaha high? I would never try it in Omaha8 due to low being out, allowing someone with the low and a medium flush an easy call.
You have what is often referred to as the nut bluff, or the dry A, and it is a fine play. Imagine if you did flop the nut flush (with or without the set). How would you have played it? Kind of like you played this hand? If so, then you played it right, and they read you for the hand. Now, just make sure that sometimes when you do flop the nut flush you play it a little different, so they don't fold correctly at that time.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Do you think they believed you, or did the resulting confusion ("did he/didn't he?") make it worth showing the Ace?
it was a fine hand and a good raise. I see no mistake.
but, since you ar new to high (only) Omaha. I do want to point out that there are many good players who NEVER raise before the flop. for example that flop could have been 4,5,6,7 rainbow----
some believe it best to gamble after the flop.
Indeed, and I can see why. However they will sometimes re-raise when they have something like Aces with big cards or Aces double suited to get heads-up with the raiser.
Andy.
Andy, I sure agree about the reraise
with those cards seems good to isolate.
oddly enough, I like the reraise idea better than a first raise (pre flop)
It makes sense to me. My Omaha experience is minimal but I do intend to play a bit more in the next few months as it seems you should have a big edge over weak players.
you know it. I knew it, but got caught-up in the action and failed to act properly last week.
my stack was rather small when we got down to the final two tables of the N/L,HE event. details are not important about how I built stack, but did win some pots and had nice stack of chips--then, when I am in big blind the field checked to button who put in his small stack which I called with my pocket QQs. His AKo defeated my QQ, then just 3 or 4 hands later same player moved all in and I called him with AKs. Sure enough he had QQ and won the pot!!
those two hands left me very short and I was soon blinded off--in the money at 12th place, but out of the game.
we both know that I sdhould have waited. I did not have to play either hand, I had enough chips I could have coasted to final table. Even 10th place would have paid me much better.
Sooooo, don't get caught-up in the action and forget where you are---I won't NEXT time.
Jim,
Since your stack was short, I believe you made the correct decisions both times. When you get a short stack you're not going to have many opportunities to double up as the favorite. It could have easily gone the other way on the first hand, since the queens are a slight favorite. I think you only have to be more cautious when your stack is average or better. The first hand where you had the queens I don't think I could have let them go, I would have done the same. On the second hand, if my stack was short and I didn't think that I could make much more money, I would have done the same. What you really needed was good luck. I don't care what people say, you need luck to win a tournament. There have been many times were I was the favorite. For example, I had aces on the button, and raised all in, then lost to a pair of nines when my opponents nine came on the river.
Good Luck
Mark
If you even consider passing QQ in the big blind to a "small stack" on the button you will never make serious money from poker tournaments. Sorry to be harsh, but that's the way it is.
What you need not to forget is that winning one tournament pays for very many 12th places that could have been 10th.
Andy.
Unless you are 1 spot away from the money I can't imagine mucking QQ and even then it would be tough unless I could get busted on the hand.
Even AK would be a tough muck.
I think you played it correct. Remember 1st-3rd is where the money is, not 10th.
Ken Poklitar
I think you played fine. Maybe 1 out of the money I muck, but to tell you the truth, I doubt it. I think I play both hands the way you did. Unless you KNOW something about the player to lead you to believe that he would raise ONLY with AA, KK, QQ or AK. Being on the button, I give him very little credit for a hand. You have one, if he finds one--good for him.
Just wondering if I could get some feedback on this hand. I have T1900 when the blinds get to 100/200. Probably a slightly above average stack at this point. UTG, sitting to my right, limps in for 200. I have AhKc and make it 1100 to go. Everyone folds to the utg, he thinks for a minute, then calls. Did I make the right play here. Results to follow.
Hi should also say, he has T200 less chips than me.
I pretty much never raise more than half my stack without instead raising all my stack. Here, you've committed almost 60% of your stack, so you're pot-stuck. Since you have AK and not AA, you should probably be perfectly happy if the opponent folds, so you might as well have bet it all and made it more likely he folds.
I would have made it 800 to go. He is somewhat more likely to call, but he will still fold his weaker hands with which he was just stealing. And, you now have enough to make a sizable bet on the flop to back up your initial raise. You'll be able to bet 1100 on the flop with a pot size of 1900, which is substantial and doesn't give him odds to call with all that many hands that don't hit the flop pretty solidly.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think you may have raised a bit too much. I would make it 800. That leaves you with 1100 which is a decent size amount for a bet on the flop if UTG checks and you decide to bet.
You don't mention the chip position of UTG or if he frequently limps UTG. Some players only limp UTG with big pairs. Others limp UTG with any pairs or any Ace.
Ken Poklitar
I agree with the above posts. I would EITHER make it 800 to go, or move all in. 1100 is just too much of your stack to get off of the hand later, and leaves you to little to apply any pressure to get him to lay down his hand.
have not yet read results
the other posts both like 8oo raise better than 1100, and they may be right
what concerns me is that you are only second player to act...thus you may be faced with need to put in all of your chips if you are reraised
therefore, before you raise you need to decide based upon all other factors, are you willing to bet all on AK???
sometimes yes, other times, no ? ? ?
if NO, then perhaps you may want to just call?? or raise less than the 600 which was suggested
I would have to know other factors before I could decide. might even want to move in now to discourage other players??
Flop Ad5s8s. Two spades. He checks to me and I go all in for another 800. He calls all in for 600. He turns over Qs9s. Flush gets there on the turn and I'm pretty much out of the tourney at that point. Looking back, I think I should raise all-in to take the 500 pot pre-flop. Protect my hand since it isn't made at that point. After reading your posts I am convinced this is the right play. Raise all-in. If I take the 500, that is a 25% increase in chips. And if I get called I do have a strong hand. After the flop I don't have enough left to move him off the pot, if he catches anything. Thanks for the information. Additional comments?
There is one main weakness with this type of strategy. If you get called, you're probably behind (and I mean to AA or KK, not just barely behind TT or the like). If you don't get called, you win the 500. In this situation, that might be fine. In other situations, I've heard people argue that they should have just moved in, and they're talking about risking T1900 to win T150. Now that's a huge mistake. In your case, moving all-in is certainly a viable choice, since a pot-sized raise of T900 is almost half your stack. However, as a general rule, I don't like to overbet the pot without a very good reason to do so.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Also, don't be too negative about your play after seeing the results. The point is that you got your money in twice as a favorite and that's what counts.
Nicolas
well, $1000 raise or $17000 raise not too different. He basically sucks, play with him often.
Qualifying tournament. Top 20 out of 100 qualify. About 40 people left, I have T1400. Blinds are 100-200, with 200-400 betting.
I'm 3 off the button and make it 400 to go with Ah9h. Button three bets (He only has 275 left after the raise). Small blind (T3500) flat calls, BB mucks. I call. Pot is T2000, I have T800 left.
Flop comes KKK.
SB bets right out. Your turn.
I know the small blind has a made hand. Probably two Jacks or 10's. My nine is no good and I need to hit my ace. There is 2200 in the pot so I'm getting 11-1 on the call...assuming the button doesn't have an ace and I don't have to split the pot if I hit. I have a good read that the button is going to raise all-in his last 75, so I assume that he too has a smaller pocket pair.
I thought for about 2 minutes and called. Button put it all in....we both called and the turn was an ace. SB checked and called the turn and my all-in bet on the river. He had 10 10 and the button had 99.
I know I got lucky. I discussed this hand with a friend (one of the best players in the club) and he said it's an easy muck. He made the same read of the SB and said that with T800 left he would have mucked the hand and moved on. I said that I felt that I needed to at least take one off...the difference between having T800 and T525 at this level was small compared to the size of the pot.
Maybe I am being results orientated but I feel that I made the right decision on the flop to peel one off.
Comments welcome.
yes, you did get lucky
in a ring game the pot odds most often dictate the action whereas in a tournament survival dictates
next time start with a better hand
I don't think you can stay in here - assuming the SB has TT or JJ or QQ or something like AQ or AJ and that the button has some smaller pair, then about half the time you have a 2/45 chance of winning half the pot, and the other half the time you have a 3/45 chace of winning the whole thing. So you have a 2.2% chance of ending up with T2075, a 3.3% chance of having T3350, which leaves a 94.4% chance of having T525. So unless the difference in terms of expectation between T800 and T525 is completely negligible, you shouldn't be in here. On the other hand, fortune favors the bold, and you have make to a move at some point and get lucky, right?
Lenny
I don't think I would have raised in the 1st place. Too many players that could have a hand after me.
To me this is a raise or fold. The fact that SB cold called 2 1/2 bets leads me to believe he either has a big ace or a pair. If he has either you are in trouble.
So I guess I would fold. Now if this is a player who calls raises with anything then I might raise although raising probably wouldn't push him off much.
Ken Poklitar
I dont think you should have seen the flop. Once you did, there is a lot of money in the pot which may justify a call. Ironically this is the reason why you dont want to see the flop with your hand. You hate to get committed with this tyoe of hand.
What if you hit an ace and split with AQ, you would basically be drawing to split the pot (if against AQ and 10,10). This is an awful position in a tournament.
On the button I would raise your hand preflop. One off the button maybe. 3 off the button No way!. I mean what is 3 off the button? that could also be phrased as 3rd (or 4th) to act. This is middle position (and perhaps early) NOT late. This hand is not playable for you here.
Yes I would think you were just a bit out of position to begin with...with as many as half the field yet to act..Especially if the aggressors are yet to act... As a rookie i would say late position..minimum cutoff position... fact is mistakes make us wiser..( well some of us)
jg
I agree with Russell and Ken about the preflop play: it was marginal at best.
That said, I think you are done with it on the flop. The SB most likely has a pocket pair which may or may not be higher than a nine so you may need to hit an ace to win and there's the problem. The button could have a big ace reducing your outs and only splitting the pot should an ace come. Also, he could have aces and then you are dead.
The pot is pretty big but I really don't see how you can peel one off here, especially considering your small stack size. Fold and move on.
Nicolas
I've been avoiding this one for a day. Basically, every answer really, truly sucks. I don't mean the replies you've gotten, I mean the answer to your question. If you fold, you've given up on a huge pot. If you call, you're wimpily putting in all your chips and hoping. If you raise, you're still putting all your money in and hoping, but at least you're doing it with style.
The thing is, this pot is so big, I don't expect the button to fold even if you raise, but he might, so if you're going to play you must raise and try to knock him out. Likewise, even if the SB is bluffing, I expect him to call your raise and put you all-in, so you can't win this pot with aggression alone. And, of course, just calling is mere hoping, hoping that you have any outs and that they hit, or that by some even greater miracle you're ahead.
You've told us there are 40 left and 20 win. How many chips are in play? If you fold here and are left with T800, just how likely is it that you make the final 20? Are players still gambling it up a lot at every table, or is the play (properly) conservative? If you win this pot somehow, now what are your chances of making the final 20?
These answer will affect my answer. However, I don't put the SB on a K, that's for sure, but the button could easily have one. I mean, the pot's so big, if the SB checks surely one or both of you are going to bet at it, so why should he bet out and give you guys some chance at getting away from your hands? He either has a good to decent A, or a small to medium pair, and he wants to knock you out to increase his chances of winning this big pot.
I would probably raise here, and hope that this causes the button to fold, and that I'm either ahead of the SB or have some outs. In fact, if the SB has something like AT he might just muck, figuring you couldn't raise with less than this, and he doesn't want to draw to just 2 or 3 outs.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
should have mucked early
must muck here
now I'll read the results
Twice this past week I have been involved in spliting the money with only three people remaining in the tournment. I would like to know if I struck a fair deal. Also can anyone give me some general guidelines for spliting the money in this situation.
Deal 1: 48,000 chips in play. Chip leader has 28,000 in chips. Both I and the third player have 10,000. Payout was: 1st $2900, 2nd 1600, and 3rd 1000. Chip leader proposed giving up $400, I asked for a little more and he readily agreed to another $200. This essentially gave both myself and the third player 2nd place money of $1600.
Deal 2: 97,000 chips in play. 1st 2800, 2nd 1600, and 3rd 900 The proposed deal was to give us each 3rd place money of $900 and devide the rest on the basis of chip cound. As chip leader I got an additional $1100(46%), 2nd got aproximate $700 more(29%) and third appoximately $600 more (25%). The numbers I provided do not work out exactly due to rounding and that we took some off the top for the dealers. My question though is this an equitable way to split the remaining prize pool. Also would it make a difference if one of us were short stacked.
One other question is what is a reasonable tip for the dealers. My tip amounted to $100 each night. Thanks in advance.
What I like to do is to estimate my chances of finishing in each position, multiply that by the prize, and then I want at least that total in any deal I make.
First is easy to estimate. Your percentage of the chips is roughly your percentage chance of winning, modified by your relative skill levels (but be careful here, usually the limits are so high at this point that skill differences aren't as important as luck, i.e., you can't have that big of an edge over a lesser-skilled opponent if the game has effectively become put it all in and see who wins).
Second and third and so forth can be estimated mathematically. See Andy's webpage for one method. The chip count method you used in your second deal is a poor approximation, but an easy one. However, that method gives more money to the large stacks than they deserve, and consequently less money to the short stacks. I always suggest this method when I'm the chip leader, but never accept it when I'm below average in chips.
In your first deal, I give the chip leader an equity of just barely below $2300, so he got like $10-20 more than he should've, assuming equal skill. Of course, if you change my guesstimates just a little, he got a fair deal, or a slightly bad deal. Overall, this is very close to a fair deal, so no problem.
In the second deal, you made out by a bit. Maybe about $10-20, probably not much more.
Of course, if you were much more skilled than them, and there was a reasonable amount of play left, then you should ask for more. Contrarily, if they are better, settle for a fair deal.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
What is the address for Andy's webpage? I'd like to see a formula.
I agree with your comments. It seems that the second deal is what would be fair if everyone would take the third place money and then played winner-take-all for the remainder of the prize pool, (r equivalently, if the prizes were changed to 3500, 900, 900.) So it is clearly advantageous to the chip leader, and is clearly an incorrect method.
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
http://www.pokersoft.co.uk/
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I can't remember if the actual formula is on there (even though it's my own website :-)) but you can download a free "equity calculator".
The formula is based on Mason's explanation in Gambling Theory and Other Topics.
Andy.
Thanks. I'll look at it. I read Gambling Theory and Other Topics (especially that section), but I don't remember seeing something that would easily give rise to an explicit formula. (I don't have the book with me.) I wasn't sure about certain assumptions, such as, given that a certain player is eliminated, then on average the other players get equal shares of his chips, or INequivalently, that this average would give the correct value for the other players' expected prizes.
I imagine the situation as follows. Tell me if I am on the right track. (I ignore blinds, skill, minimum bet size, etc.) If there are k players with stacks s_1, s_2, ..., s_k, then the situation is represented by a `stack size vector' (s_1, s_2, ..., s_k), which is a point in a k-vertex simplex (since the sum of stack sizes is constant, and no stack is negative). Then a tournament is simulated by taking a random walk from that point. Every time the random walk hits a facet given by, say, s_i=0, player i is eliminated and the random walk continues in that k-1 vertex subsimplex. Continue until there is one player. You want to know the probability of player j coming nth. There should be some explicit exact formula for these probabilities for infinitessimal step size. (According to an earlier post, the step size makes a difference, amongst other things.)
If f_j(s_1, s_2, ..., s_k) is the expected prize for player j given stack sizes s_1, s_2, ..., s_k, then there should be differential of difference equations (depending if steps are infinitessimal of finite) for this quantity with boundary conditions on the facets(?).
Anyway, I have a vague idea of how to set up the problem, and I find it interesting, but I don't want to think about it if it is completely done. (Gambling Theory and Other Topics was really a partial treatment.)
So is there any accessible write-up giving an explicit formula and it's derivation? Any further info appreciated.
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
Well, Dirk, I'll admit I don't understand your post. I never got to simplexes in math. However, how Andy's program works is conceptually very simple.
Let's say there are 4 players A, B, C, and D with stacks of 40, 30, 20, and 10, respectively. We all accept (I believe) that their chances of winning are equal to their percentage of the total chips. Now, let's pretend that A won. Of those times A wins, the other players will finish 2nd based upon their chip counts among one another. Thus, B will finish 2nd to A about half the time (30 divided by (30+20+10)). Going a step further, when A wins and B finishes 2nd, we can estimate that C will finish 3rd 2/3 of the time, since he has 2/3 of the chips between himself and D. By doing all the possible iterations, you can add up each possibility and determine each player's chance of finishing in each position.
I hope that wasn't too unclear.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Essentially yes. In fact, in the unlikely event that anyone is interested, when you get above about 6 players it takes too long to work out every single combination so it does some Monte Carlo simulation (equivalent to the random walk Dirk mentions above).
Any code I write in my own time is nothing if not pragmatic :-)
Andy.
there's lots of ways to do it
not too sure about estimating chances
only specific info I could give would be that generally the chip leader gives up some in order to lock in a position, thus bottom 1 or 2 get extra
I think you did poorly on both deals.
In deal 1 you had 21% of the chips. Assume this 21% is you chance of winning. Multiply .21 by 2900 and you equity for 1st is $609. Thin if you don't take 1st about 80% of the time then you must take second or third. So given that you are even in chips w/ the third play you should take 2nd about 40% of the time and 3rd about 40% of the time. (this is very simplified but close to accurate) So multiply 1600 by .4 and your second place equity is $640. Do the same .4 by $1000 for third place equity of $400. Add these three 609+640+400= $1649 is your equity if you play the tournament out. So unless you are greatly out classed by the compition you don't want to make any deal where you give up equity because you will make more over time by just playing it out.
Deal 2 you were the chip leader but again gave up equity in the split. I won't bore anyone with all the math again bot I believe your playing equity was $2438 but again you settled for 2000. I don't mean that you should be greedy but you worked hard to get to that point and chip position and you need to make sure you get at least whats comming to you. I'm not saying you would have come out any better than third in either instance just that over time if you are put in 1000 of these situations you would do better to play these tournaments out than to accept the deals you made.
Tipping: Genarally 2% is a good amount so about $100 for a $2000 prize is perfect.
Congrats on gettin in the money!
Very curious to get some insight as to whether one should base N/L on pot odds and or reading the player and deducing the scenerio.. Personnally I would rather be more successful at the latter... My thought is knowing odds is less effective then knowing your KQs is likely better then his late position raise based on the fact you have decent reading skills and his past play.. I think that pot odds sure as hell aint going to win that hand for me at the showdown.. Just a rookie at this N/L game and want to build upon some solid advice... thanks
jg
..or at least my tournament.
Here are the last 3 hands of a NL tournament I played last night. There are 3 prizes and we are down to 4 players. There is me with 4400 on the button, to my left has 8000, to his left has about 12000, and to my right has all the rest (which is a lot, probably 50K+).
Blinds are 2000-4000 leaving me minimal wiggle room.
Hand 1: 73o on the button. I fold.
Hand 2: UTG: I have Qc10c and push all in for the big 400 more. Of course big stack finds a call with his 97o and I high card him to more than double up to 10800. Relaxing briefly I hear the buzzer go off before the dealer starts shuffling, nicely doubling the blinds to 4000-8000. Sigh.
And now the key hand: Hand 3: I post the majority of my stack on the BB and receive 10c3d. UTG folds, button folds and SB puts me in.
I had to think about this a long time. Certainly the immediate thought was call with any two. However, these are two pretty lousy cards. However, I will be all in next hand on the SB. BUT BB will also be all in and big stack has shown a strong inclination to be knocking people out. If I fold this and next hand big stack calls next hand, myself and SB will be all in against big stack, where if I win I can assure myself at least 3rd place.
At this point in the tournament I am not concerned with winning as it is not at present a reasonable goal. My only goal is to outlast for 3rd place for the moment.
So, my options are to fold, and hope to win a 3-way hand next hand, putting me up to T7400 and having the other two short stacks go through the blinds before I have to face them again (giving me a reasonable chance of 3rd or 2nd if I win because as I say big stack was very knockout crazy). Or I could call and try to win this hand and get some breathing room for a couple of hands.
With my 10-3o, I am probably a solid underdog to almost any two cards. However, I could be up against 6-7 or similar. Next hand, my odds of winning the hand should be 1/3 (1 random hand out of 3!), which could very well assure me a prize. However, winning the current hand would really put me in position to win a prize, as I would then have T21600, enough to get through 2BB and one SB before being down to all in. As well, I'd have enough for a full preflop raise and be able to perhaps steal a blind.
I decided to call and was up against K-8o. In the end, there were a few concerns; 1) maybe no one else will call next hand and BB will get some money back and be able to get through the SB without going all in; 2) I may not be a huge underdog; 3) if I can win the current pot, I could entertain some chances at first.
Flop: Q-9-6
Turn: 10 (yahoo..now I was begging for no jack)
River: J
and, I'm spent.
Any comments on how this tournament ended for me are welcome. To clarify one other point, no deal was possible because there had been a dispute in the tournament earlier and there were hard feelings between the remaining participants.
Immediate reaction, first two hands fine. Hand 3 I think we would probably like to know exactly what the prizes are.
I don't like to be in this kind of situation (passing for a handful of chips just for a possibility of stepping up one place) so, as you probably know, I favour making a move before you get in this spot. Still, sometimes you lose a pot to a slightly smaller stack and there you are.
Andy.
Not that big a tournament:
Prize structure approx
1st: $600
2nd: $350
3rd: $250
I left the third from last hand in there to show why I had let it get so bad. As well, I had a bit of bad luck with the exact timing of the blind doubling. This is why I had made the allin move on the previous hand with Q-10, to either let me get through the blinds easily or not have to worry about calling 400 more next hand. One of the problems was that the really big stack was playing extremely slowly and each round was a much smaller number of hands than would be expected.
I think it would be a big mistake to fold in this situation. Even if he has 2 overcards on you (not an overpair) you are about 7:3 dog. The pot is laying you 20800:800 or over 50:1. There is not a hand you could fold that lays this bad of odds... (maybe TT).
Also, you likely have about the same chance of winning against 2 random hands, and you could win a lot more chips playing this hand.
If you win, you will have over T21000 in chips. Since the blinds are so high luck plays a large factor on who takes home first prize. You could end up winning.
Derrick
but you are still gettting 36:1 on your call. And you will still have over T21000 in chips vs T8400 in chips with about the same odds of winning.
Derrick
You gotta call. If you fold, you're all-in the next hand, as well as the player to your left, but he has more chips. In most rooms, the rule is whoever started the hand with the most chips gets the higher finish. If so, then of the 6 possibilities, 2 of them the chip leader wins, you both go broke, and you finish 4th. In 2 others, the PTYL wins, and you don't care whether you beat the big stack or not, because you're done in 4th. Finally, in the 2 situations where you win, only if the big stack beats the PTYL do you immediately finish in 3rd. If you win and the big stack finishes last, then you're still at risk of going out next and you still have only a very small stack. That's 1 in 6 chance of a good result, 1 in 6 of a mediocre result, and 2/3 chance of 4th place.
If you play the T3o, you're probably not much worse, if at all worse, than a 2:1 dog anyway. In other words, playing the T3o you'll lose about as often as you'll finish in 4th place if you don't play the T3o, and when you win now, you have a (pretty) big stack of chips instead of the shortest stack.
So, the risk is about the same either way, yet the rewards are MUCH greater for playing the T3o now.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Just to have your opinion about this key hand.
No-limit tournament, 6 players left, prizes only for first 5 players.
I have a huge bankroll (second chip leader)I'm dealt QQ in medium position and I raise 1/3 of my stack preflop, everyone folds except the BB (chip leader) who calls.
Flop Qc-Xc-X (2 clubs). BB checks, I bet another 1/3 of my chips, BB goes all-in, I happily call. He shows Ac-Kc, turn card is a club (sigh), river a blank. I'm out of the money.
Did I have made a mistake to call the all-in or to bet against the chip leader with the threat of the 4 flush board? (Or to raise too little---but I think he would have called anyway with his A-K suited).
Thanks for answers,
Marco
Turn: a damned club.
you got your money in with the best hand
he had 12 out, thus odds were 33 to 12
you could get rich if you played that hand forever
just bad luck
you played fine
On the flop you are a 3-1 favorite to win. Get it in quick!
Not that it makes any difference but it sounds like you should have went all-in on the flop. Since you bet 1/3 of your stack preflop and he called. On the flop I would bet it all which should be about the same as what is already in the pot.
Ken Poklitar
What were the prizes? Probably they were amounts like 40-20-etc., in which case your play is fine. You hate to risk going up against the chip-leader at this point, but if you win here, you're a huge favorite to finish in first place. However, if this were a super-satellite where 1-5 all pay the same, and 6 gets little or nothing, then both you and the chip leader played your hands awfully.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think the question you have to ask yourself is why the chip leader would take on a raise from the second chip leader?? Clearly, he has a monster. While mathematically it may be correct to continue, why risk it? Fight another battle against a short stack. Tourneys are different than rings for exactly this type of hand...
brutal! you played your hand fine. just unlucky. the guy who said your opponent had 12 outs was wrong. he only has 8 on the flop and 7 on the turn. becaus ethere are 9 clubs in the deck, but 2 of them pair the board and you win.
Hi, I am a experienced cash game player, and I'm gonna play my first hold em' limit tourney this weekend. I've read many books and learned many things, but I don't know much about the difference between cash games and tourneys. I've heard you should chase straights and flushes. I would appreciate all the tips you could give. Thanks alot.
Sheck
Hello,
A lot of people will tell you the opposite, "draws are death". This is not so. You just have to play each situation on its merits.
In a limit tournament in particular, you will be fine just playing your normal cash game until the blinds are so high that you (or your opponent, don't forget) don't have enough chips to bet all the rounds. Once this situation starts, draws are less profitable because you can't extract full value when you hit. Nonetheless some can still be played.
There are loads of posts below about short-stacked situations which might help.
Good luck,
Andy.
Would it fair to say that any draw 10 through A are definitely better drawing hands then 67 etc to play in tournies especially in the higher rounds.In the first and second round I`d tend to play the little connecters more and only late or if the table is full of callers in the early rounds.. theres more play for the chips early.. You absolutely dont need the straight or flush to win with 10-A..
jg
I will be playing in the Trop's NL tourney. I plan on celebrating my birthday in style!!!! I invite all 2+2ers to play with me on my birthday! Poker only!! Unless your that cute dealer with the green eyes ;o)
I plan on dominating the field with my tight agressive play. I anticipate 100 or so players will test their skills against the great one. First place should be a whopping 4K! It's mine! Just wanted to give y'all a heads up. that is all
dannyboy :o)
p.s. trip report will follow Saturday. more than likely my all in AA will get cracked by 24suited, sending me home with my tail between my legs. I am a LEO, so I do have a tail.
I'm curious, how'd you make out? Did get a good birthday present - cashout or were you the present for somebody else's birthday?
Tell me guys is this book worth getting if your new to tournies for gaining insight to the play of hands in tournies..
jg
If you're asking about the book by Sherer, I haven't read it yet. But my understanding is that it is a workbook, a companion to his: Poker Tournament Tactics for Winners.
You might want to repost this on the books/software forum.
I am new to tournament play, and am trying to learn. I had a hand in a small tournament, and am wondering what the correct situation was.
4 handed, blinds are 30-60, I have about 450 in chips in front of me (only 2500 in chips at the table) I am dealt KQo in the small blind. It is folded around to me and I raise 60 (standard raise), and I get reraised for the amount of my stack (330 or so). The raiser still has about 250 after raising me. What should I do?
What if I assume that I have a perfect read on my opponent and put him on a small pair?
Does it matter that the blinds are going up to 50-100 on the very next hand?
There is only a prize for 1st place, so there is no benefit to just surviving.
My thought is that I should call this bet. If I've made a correct read, I have just under a 50% chance of winning, which will put me into a good position to win. However, if I fold, I'll only have 300 in chips, which will only last two rounds of blinds (8 hands), and will probably have to take a stand with an inferior hand.
Is this good logic? Or should I fear that my read is wrong, and that he has a big pair (Q's or higher) or an ace? Even if there is a decent chance of this (say 30% to pick a number at random), is this enough of an incentive to lay it down?
Thank you for any advice.
If you have a perfect read on your opponent then it is an easy call. You will have T900 in chips and there is only T2500 chips in play.
What if your opponent has a weak A. You are a dog, and will generally win about 40% of the time. I believe you still have a call here
The only hands that he could have that dominate you are AA, KK, AK, and AQ.
If I was raised to double my blind, I would often push back hard with almost any hand if my perception was that you were on a steal... Especially if I had more chips than you. I think there is a very good chance you are not dominated and you should make a stand here.
Derrick
You say 60 is a standard raise. It may be standard in limit but not in no limit. I don't like only raising 60. The BB is getting 3-1 on that small raise. I would raise to 180 which makes it tougher for him to call without a reasonable hand.
If you know he has an under pair then he is a slight favorite but it would correct to call since you are getting better odds.
If you think he has an ace-anything then the decision is tougher since you are now a bigger underdog. If he would only do this with AA, KK or QQ or AK a fold would probably make sense.
Ken Poklitar
Ken is right about raising more than 60.
In a winner-take-all situation, normal "survival" concepts simply do not apply. You have to get all the chips sooner or later. Don't let the fact that a deal might be made distract you from this - you aren't going to get much of a deal if you survive to get heads-up with 10% of the chips.
I made a not dissimilar play last night but mine was probably wrong. 14 players left, 10th-18th all pay £250, 2-day tournament, it is 3am and this is the last hand before we break for the night. I have 25K chips (average is about 50) and the blinds are 1.5-3K. 2nd position raises 10K. Sound player but still could have a lot of hands. I have KQ suited and, for reasons mostly unrelated to poker strategy :-), push it all in. He calls, shows AT and I draw out (albeit I am only a small underdog).
Basically I just couldn't be bothered taking the entire following day off work and schlepping through the traffic just to play with 25K chips at 2-4K blinds, given that I had to beat 5 players for an increase in money. Unprofessional I know :-). BTW I finished 8th for £1050.
Andy.
I agree with raising him. If he had a high pair, wouldn't he have raised all in himself?? You are not, IMO, dominated here. BTW, you don't mention what position reraises, but I will assume BB. If that is the case, for what reason would he not throw his whole stack in with others to act afterwards IF he had a high pair?? Nope....my guess is he has the small pair. You should reraise....
I am wondering what people think the strength of play in both the side games and the tournaments at the `3rd annual Jack Binion's World poker open', at the Horseshoe/Goldstrike, January 5-25, 2001.
I went to the smaller `Mid-America Poker Classic' a few weeks ago with the intention of playing low-limit side action, and taking a shot at satellites. It went fairly well: I won $50-$300 each session (playing 4-8 holdem and a bit of 10-20 holdem, as well as 3-6 omaha hi/lo (for the first time)) and I won two satellites in four attempts, although I failed completely in the $500 limit holdem tournament that the satellites led to.
Basically, I would have the same plan in January. How much tougher will the competition be in January compared to the smaller August tournament? I assume there will be a lot more pro's there, but I assume they won't be playing much of the limits I mentioned. Maybe there will also be a lot more tourists. I never found myself at a tough table last time.
Any comments or impressions welcome.
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
I wouldn't judge the strength of the field based on satellite results -- a lot of good tourney players don't have as good of satellite results.
The limit hold-em tournament at the Mid-America Classic wasn't populated with most of the big names (although Dewey Weum and 2-time ladies champion Nani Dollison played), but the nature of limit neutralizes any big advantage anyway. Yet for what it's worth, the guy who won was a fine poker player, playing the tourney after a non-stop 36-hour live session.
If you play well, the overall strength of the field in a limit tournament isn't as relevant a factor in the outcome as it is in a pot-limit or no-limit tournament. Go to Reno :-)
in January I don't think you will find very many tourists in Reno or Tunica
as to the smaller side games, I would expect Tunica to be better because they draw players from bigger population area than does Reno. BUT in those games there will also be many good players who are temporially without funds and have come to the tournament looking for a stake, and, or, trying to win a satellite
as to the fields in tournaments....Reno vs Tunica is an interesting contest. Reno was so good last year that many western players will probably go back. Same thing can be said for Tunica....geography will dictate for many. Be cause Jack Binion is who he is, with many big name friends and contacts in the world of poker...I expect him to win the contest.
fields will be tough both places. brand name experts will be in Tunica to compete with each other. AND note also that Jack has raised the buy to $10,000 in the final event this year.
sorry I did not meet you there in Tunica at last tournament. I played all four events, cashed 11th in one.
Yow! You guys make it sound really tough. I will probably go anyway with the aim of staying out of trouble and getting some experience. (I will go to Tunica, because I can drive there, accommodation is cheap, and food is free -- at least if you can survive on one buffet per day. They fed my wife too and she doesn't gamble at all.)
I will probably go for the earlier portion of the series, maybe even getting there before it starts. I will post here closer to the time to try to arrange to meet 2+2'ers there.
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
I only play in a $25 buy-in at the TROP as this is the only one that fits my schedule. Here are 2 hands that took me out of a tourney:
UTG with QhJh with 100-200 blinds. Had about T2000 in chips. Decided it's time to steal the blinds and raised pre-flop. Everybody folded except the button who has less chips than me. Flopped AhKhJs - "beautiful", I said to myself and bet out. Button called, turn blank, bet, got called, river blank, bet got called. Button showed A2o and scooped the pot. I tried everything to get to this knucklehead that his top pair no kicker is NG but to no avail. Anything I did wrong?
Later with 200-400, blind got AKo UTG with last T800 and raised all-in. Everybody folded except BB with about T2000. Flopped AKJ rainbow. I said to myself "Wow" I can stay a little bit longer. Turn blank, river another J. Blind showed J4o. Is this guy another moron or what?
I said to myself, "I'm glad this is not the Old West". Comments, please?
On hand 1 I doubt I try to steal the blinds with QJs UTG. Not a bad flop if you hit your draw but thats really all you have. You do have bottom pair but thats it. You have forgotten that another player is involved with the hand. He has cold called your raise. It is certainly possible he has an A or a K.
On the 2nd hand there is 1400 in the pot. He only needs to add another 400. It is unlikely he is a 3.5 to 1 underdog even with the cheese J4o. Since you only have 800, your UTG raise does not mean you have a big hand. You could be raising with Ax or even Kx. I do agree it was a bad beat since it was a nice flop for you.
Ken Poklitar
Hand 2 is quite clear to me now, but in Hand 1 my question is was it proper for the button to call a raise with A2o especially when he is also short stacked? Again, my betting out at the flop to represent that he is at least outkicked or does this go with the theory that AX is pretty good heads up?
Sure it was wrong for him to call your UTG raise with A2o. But once he makes the call and hits the Ace, this type of player would rarely if ever fold. This type of player does not understand the concept of poor kickers.
Ken Poklitar
"Is this guy another moron or what ?"
I make the same call. If you call me a moron for it then it is you who will be glad this is not the Wild West :-).
You need to have more respect for your opponents where appropriate and, where it isn't (as in hand 1 perhaps), adjust accordingly.
Andy.
Ex. 1 For me QJs is not an ante stealing hand from UTG. I'd just call and hope for the best. If you get alot of callers-good you may win a big pot but only if the right cards hit. He might have- Axs or Kxs, maybe KQs, QJs, JTs, JJ or TT...something like that. If he had: AA, KK, QQ, AKs/o, AQs/o Aj etc...he probably would re-raise. After that flop, I would have checked for a free card and call/checked the rest of the way at that point. Not really a "bad-beat", but a "bad-play" with a glimmer of hope and then AA beats JJ. Just a regular loss...why do you think he was calling you?
Ex. 2 Not a true bad-beat, but not very fun I'll admit.
You played it right...if one raise puts you all-in then you had the right hand to do it with. His call was weak but, you were all-in and he was protected from loosing any more money. And there was nobody left. We've all seen that a million times, bad call wins pot and knocks sombody out. Happend to me plenty.
The term Bad-Beat has gotten devalued. Here's a true bad beat that knocked me out of a tourney recently in the early rounds. The $ amounts are irrelevant in this story. I'm on the button with AA. Everbody folds. SB and BB don't believe anyone who raises from the button with no previous caller. So raising is my only option. SB folds, BB re-raises, I re-raise, He re-raises be back, I re-raise again, he calls.
Flop: A 5 5
He bet's, I raise, he re-raises, we raise back and forth until I'm all-in, he's almost all-in.
T: BLANK< R:BLANK<
I figure I've just taken a commanding lead...but what does this bastard turn over?????? 4 of a kind 5s
Now that's a bad-beat. That damn-dirty-ape was lucky that we weren't in the wild west that day!
You are contributing to the de-valuing of the term "bad beat." Your opponent may have overplayed his hand slightly pre-flop, but once the flop came down, he was winning. With all that raising back and forth, you have to think after a while that he's raising with something, right? The only hands he can have are A5 and 55, and he'd slow down at some point with A5. When he doesn't slow down, you've got to at least suspect that you're beaten.
I think it depends on the situation. Re-raising twice pre-flop with a pair of fives is maniac behavior. This guy was a maniac. He could only have ONE hand that could beat me, and based on his pre-flop antics it was highly doubtful that he had a pair of fives in the hole. I figured he either had AK, AQ, AJ or A5. His betting on previous hands indicated that with top pair or set, or top two pair he bets with reckless abandon. If I took my card-reading pills that morning, I would have seen the 5's. But that is really an imposible read.
If he had called my initial raise and then after the flop hit, bet like a maniac I would have slowed down figuring he might have a bigger monster. His pre-flop crazyness threw me off completely. He got super-lucky and beat me bad.
When I say de-value, I mean people call a pair of jacks in the hole being beaten by a pair of Kings in the hole a bad beat. Or floping top set with queens and getting drawn out by a flush. In my book highest possible boat being beat by 4 of kind is a true bad-beat. I sure your a top-notch player, but do you think you could have read such a rare hand from a known maniac?
I'm no expert, and my tournament record is certainly abysmal. I don't know how big your stack was at the start of this hand, but I don't think you necessarily had to lose it all. We go to your original story:
Here's a true bad beat that knocked me out of a tourney recently in the early rounds. The $ amounts are irrelevant in this story.
I think the dollar amounts are relevant. At some point, you've got to realize you're beaten and stop raising.
I'm on the button with AA. Everbody folds. SB and BB don't believe anyone who raises from the button with no previous caller. So raising is my only option. SB folds, BB re-raises, I re-raise, He re-raises be back, I re-raise again, he calls.
Obviously, you are right to keep raising with the best hand. As for his part, he probably quite reasonably put you on a steal. A re-steal on his part with a small pair is OK, I think. Making it five bets was probably excessive on his part, but so far, he's only overplayed his hand by the one raise, I think.
Flop: A 5 5
Yippee!
He bet's, I raise, he re-raises, we raise back and forth until I'm all-in, he's almost all-in.
I probably would have slow-played in this spot, and I rarely slow-play. That aside, when he keeps raising like this, what can he have? Obviously, he doesn't have Aces full himself. After the first couple of raises, it's got to be obvious that he's at least full. He can't be on a draw or anything. OK, maybe it isn't obvious until it goes to, say, seven bets or something, but even a maniac is going to slow down eventually with a dry Five or a good Ace. After a couple more back-and-forths, it has to dawn on you that you're beaten. Yes, Quad Fives seems improbable, but after ten or twelve bets, and probably less than that. it's really the only thing he can have.
T: BLANK< R:BLANK<
I figure I've just taken a commanding lead...but what does this bastard turn
over?????? 4 of a kind 5s
This is the early stages of a limit tournament? How commanding could your lead have been? You had the potential to double through on this hand. Would that have given you a commanding lead?
You knew your customer, but it really does sound like you went too far on this hand. Maniacs get dealt big hands too. And you know what? When they do get them, they tend to get paid off huge because people are slow to put them on that big hand. You didn't have the nuts. How many raises do you put in without the nuts? 20? 50? 100? You might put in a couple more than you would with an ordinary opponent, but you don't need to blow your entire stack.
This isn't a bad beat of epic proportions by any means. He's only a 4.5:1 pre-flop. These are hardly insurmountable odds. Once the flop hits, you're dead. You have to lose a lot of chips on this hand; there's no way around that, but it's not like he hit runner-runner after you flopped the boat. He flopped the joint.
The B****rds change the rules.
My local cardroom took a vote on whether to change the Friday night no-limit game to pot limit.
My return on investment in this game ( mostly due to reading this forum) was 2.87 and hourly return about $40.
Needless to say...
Democracy sucks.
Anyone got some pot limit hands to discuss?
I am heads up in a tournament. My opponent won't deal, even though it is easy to figure a fair deal with two players.
It was a limit tournament, but is NL on final table, and so is NL now.
He has 36, I have 12, blinds are 2-4, with small on the button.
A) I get pocket 4's on the small blind/button. What should I do?
B) I get pocket 4's in the big blind, he acts first and just calls. What should I do?
Thanks.
Dirk(MildManneredMathMan)
In both cases, you should move all in.
I hope you stick around for awhile, and help us all improve our games.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
definately raise on both situation. any pair is astrong hand head up!
Did you see my post to rgp about Sklansky's WSOP championship play (jamming UTG with 77)? I need to HTMLize it to post it here and haven't had the time to do it.
Well, I download all of rgp every day and scan through it, but I missed that post unless you've done it since this morning. Please provide me with the date and such, and I'll look it up. Also, email me at the address above so I can contact you with messages like this without clogging up the board.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree with others in that I would raise in both cases.
But the main reason for my post is about the "deal" comment you made. You said he wouldn't deal, even though a fair deal could be calculated. I do make deals on occasion. But many times I don't. I've gone over this in my mind and finally figured out why I don't like to deal. When I go home after winning a tournament (without a deal), I feel good. I feel like I've accomplished something. When I go home after making a deal, I don't feel like I've really won. If I played poker as my main source of income, I think it makes good sense to make deals to guarantee a good income flow. But since I play for enjoyment and personal satisfaction (I like the money too), then winning is more important than locking up money.
How do others feel about this?
JohnnyD
Basically I agree. It's nice to win all the chips and leave the rest trailing in your wake :-)
Similarly I prefer tournaments to cash games because they are much more satisfying competitively.
Andy.
21 players left, final table paid but 6th-10th get buyin back in the usual final table deal so money is really in 5th up. You have T4000 and BB has T3200. Blinds are 300-600. Everyone folds to you and you limp with 10-10 on the button. Sb folds and BB raises 1500 more, you call. Flop is J-9-J rainbow. BB bets all in, you call. How many mistakes did you make on this hand? Results to follow with a twist and my real question.
ps. thanks Greg for your answer to my all in question, I think I'm starting to get the idea of what factors to consider in that position.
Pre-flop, I would raise to 1800. You are on the button and everyone has folded to you. Raise and take the blinds or atleast battle 1 of the blinds.
When he raises you from the BB, I would either call or raise all-in. I think calling is okay. You are headsup and if you choose to muck on a flop bet with big cards you still 1900 chips left.
On the flop all-in bet I call. Unless he has an overpair or AJ you are most likely ahead of him.
Ken Poklitar
My little twist was that the 10-10 was my opponents hand, I wanted to see what the opinions were regarding his flop call. I didn't think that he could call me without a Jack. He was an older gentleman who was having a hard time following the game and you could see by his limp in that he was very weak. I had not shown down any fancy moves the whole tourney and thought that this was a straightforward case of AA-KK-QQ-AK and that a call with anything less than a Jack or his own AA-KK-QQ was impossible. I couldn't have been more wrong as he called my all in (putting himself almost all in) and I turned over my A-Q and hoped for one of my six outs. My real dillema here is what I should have done on the flop. Do I take his preflop call as a warning sign and check-fold? I don't like the idea of check-calling, but was betting being foolishly aggressive? I'm trying to build a little aggressiveness into my game but it is one of the most unforgiving things to try and pull off. What's the smart play here?
ps.I'm learning to hate A-Q along with the rest of the free world.
Pre-flop with AQ in the BB against 1 limper although raising is fine I probably check and see the flop for free. If you hit your hand then you can bet out or check-raise.
When he calls your pre-flop raise you should assume he has something even it is a mediocre pair.
Once you see the flop is this player the type that will fold an underpair to the board? If you think he will then going all-in is fine. Weak players tend to be calling stations and tend to call with any part of the flop or a pair.
Ken Poklitar
I witnessed an interesting hand in a pot limit tourney recently. Down to the last two tables level blinds at T400(last 16 final table gets paid)
UTG (solid player) raises 1200 all fold to button who flat calls. The two blinds fold (both seemed to lose interest after the initial raise).
Both players have about T4000 chips in front of them UTG might have a slight advantage.
Flop falls A73 rainbow. UTG bets 2000. Button pauses for thought and passes. UTG flashes a pair of queens. Button throws cards at the muck a King turns over (1 of a pair I am sure).
Thinking about the hand, my initial thoughts were that the button should of raised even though it was fairly obvious that neither blind was going to bet. Had he done so I would assume that UTG would be less inclined to bet the flop.
given the outcome UTG's play post flop seems inspired, however commiting half your stack in this position seems rash given that if an ace is out he would be a pretty big underdog.
any thoughts ?
Ross
Assuming he had KK, I most likely would have re-raised before the flop. But if he saw that the blinds were going to fold then it is not a terrible play. Assuming an ace doesn't flop he can attempt to trap UTG when UTG bets out on the flop.
The QQ has the classic situation. If he checks and the button bets can he call? By betting out he is representing big slick. It is also possible he knows his opponent and knows that with a big ace he would have re-raised him pre-flop or folded.
Ken Poklitar
Russ,
I agree, KK is a reraising hand preflop. THe guy that had KK should have never showed his hand.
Logical opinions welcome:
Heads-up/ end game of a limit tourney. You have 4700 and your opponent has 3300 in chips before the cards are delt. (600-1200 limits) Your BB(600) with 4d3d; opponent calls BB. (pot 1200) You check (assuming- you already know he's not likely to fold if you raise and he wouldn't call with worse than a Ten connected or one-off (9,8). Might even call with a big pair...
Flop: 5c 6d Jh
Opponent bets: 600 (2100: remaining stack)
Call? If so, and you miss on the turn...then what?
Fold? Still ahead in chips and wait for some higher cards?
Raise? Try to win on a semi-bluff or get a free card on the river? Or, get demolished by a reraise...then what?
It's these tourney differences that boggle my mind.
I would fold....draws do not play well in a tourney, unless they ar in addition to some high strength. The only hand I can imagine you would continue playing with are two pair, and maybe pair of 4/3 ONLY IF no high cards flopped AND you have a draw and redraw. Yous situation is not so dire that you need continue with this hand. A ring game? Absolutely. Not a tourney. IMO.
Draws in tournament play are killers - for the most part they put those who play them on the rail!
Call: No way - this is gambling. 8/47 chance to hit your outs. (add another 8/46 if you go to the river)
Raise: If you think you can make your man fold - your cards become inconsequential at this point. He only called pre-flop so he has nothing or he's slowplaying (does he do that?).
Fold: [Not knoing the player] IMHO this is the right play. You got to see the flop for "free" and in this case it may be enough to get you in trouble.
What happened?
I would fold. With undercards to the board and only a backdoor flush I don't like my chances. If you fold you still have a slight lead.
Now if instead you had the 7d8d then with some overcards to the board I would raise. Since if he only has a 5 or a 6 you would be the favorite to win the hand. If you had a four flush as well as a open-ender then I would also raise.
Ken Poklitar
Bill,
In this situation, on the flop, I would either raise or fold.
I would raise if I thought that there was a chance that he would fold. You need to know how your opponent acts to a raise in this situation. You should have some idea of his playing style from observing his play at the final table. If he did call I would pay close attention to any hesitation on his part. If he does not hesitate he probably may have a made hand. As long as he is not a tricky player, if he hesitates he does not have anything yet, but may have overcards, a small pair, or a draw. If he checks the turn, you should bet as long as you think that he has not made his hand yet. If you think he has made his hand and is waiting for you to bet, you should check and be ready to fold on the river if he bets and you have not made your hand.
There are several reasons why I would strongly consider raising on the flop. Here's a list of the advanages:
There is a very small chance that the flop has helped him, since you said that he would not call with anything less than 10-8. Normally, you will hit one of your cards on the flop 33% of the time, but since you know he will not play a 5 or 6, the chance that the flop helped him are greatly reduced.
Many players will check that flop waiting to trap you with an overpair. Since, he bet, he is more likely to have two cards 8 or higher, or a small pair.
A raise on the flop will get your opponent to fold if he is bluffing, or just call with overcards or a small pair. So, you can take the free card on the turn if you want to.
Finally, I want to mention that if he is likely to reraise me on the flop, I'd probably throw the hand away. Note that, the small blind will frequently bet to pick up the pot.
Good Luck
Mark
Thanks for your educated opinions. Considering the Tstake level at that time and more importantly my opp's style, I folded. I knew it was a raise or fold situation, just as it would be heads-up in a normal ring-game. I considered calling only because the opp was a bit of a softy. If he had nothing, and I called, he would probably check next round for fear I had something. If he bet again, it would indicate that he at least had a pair. And, by the way, he often slowplays right from the start. He was the type that wouldn't hesitate to raise w/ K-10 off (pre-flop) from middle position with 2 already in. He would almost never raise with QQ, KK, or AA pre-flop. He would call, check/raise at the end with those, regardless of the board...it seemed. His play was aggressive with marginal/ decent hands, and seemingly timid or overly slow-played with the big boys. Heads-up- tourney final table should adjust one's play, but not too much with him. I ended up winning the tourney with JJ vs. AKo and no improvement for either.
The difference to me seems to be that in a tourney (at the end), one misplay can cost you the game; therefore the money. Or even one aggresive overplay may win the pot right there or put you all-in with an minimal-outer. Which isn't as bad a attempting a pure bluff in these situations. Once your at the top limit, it's very much like no-limit strategy. One or two bets can put you all-in. It makes your choices a little tougher.
-Bill
Generally speaking, this is a raise-or-fold situation, but there are exceptions. Some players would expect me to raise with a bluff or a medium hand that wants to win now, but not with a real big hand (like a set). Thus, against them, I should call the flop, and then take the initiative on the turn, and they would be MORE likely to fold. Yet, this play is super-risky as well.
Overall, the correct play depends a lot more upon your opponent then upon your cards.
Another big factor is how the opponent is playing the other hands. If he's letting you steal his blinds more than he should, then fold here and continue your stealing ways. I've seen players who will play almost as tight heads-up as they do at a full table, and you can literally steal the win from them without ever making any kind of hand, and at almost no risk. If he's one of these types, you don't ever want to play a big pot with him unless you've got a monster hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
No Limit Holdem with the blinds at $100/200. We are a long way from the money. I have $625 left and the blinds coming up in 3 hands. UTG limps (he has about $1500 left and has shown down some weak hands, 3rd to act calls (His overall play has been conservative and he has just survived an all in show down. He now has $1500).
I have JhTh and raise all in. My hope was that at least one of the callers would drop and I would be left in a heads up situation with $500 dead money in the pot.
The reason I am questioning my thinking is that the pot was contested 4 ways and the hands which called my "all in" raise were relatively weak. Of the two hands other hands shown down, one was Js7s (by the weak player) and the other Jc9c (by the chip leader who cold called my all in raise.) I did not see the third hand which was mucked. Yes, I did win the hand, but I do not believe I would have called my bet with any of their hands. So I am wondering if an "all in" raise of only 2BBs is enough to make this sort of play feasible. Also was it just a plain bad play on my part.
Thanks Calvin.
Calvin
I do not think your play was wrong given your chip position you are going to make a stand sooner rather than latter and JT suited might be the best hand you see before you are blinded down to T325
It is your opponets play that is questionable is J7 suited is a trash hand no way should that have been played UTG.
Even if I was a massive chip leader I do'nt think I would have flat called your raise with J9 suited given that there were 2 live players still to act.
Just because your play did go as you planned it does'nt nmake it a bad play.
ross
Ross,
My thinking is in line with Ken's here. Whether JTs is the best hand you will receive before the blinds is not the issue (and in any case, in this short-stacked scenario, you are probably better off with any Ace and most Kings). The issue is whether this is the best situation you will find before the blinds. With two limpers already, the probability of winning the blinds uncontested or getting heads-up is much reduced. Fold this one, try to take a stand with something else before you hit the blinds.
Andy.
With JTs and 2 early limpers I would fold even with a shortstack. To me the issue is that you have no high card strength. Unless you hit your hand you will lose. Plus since you are short stacked other players tend to know that your raise does not mean you have a monster. So the limpers probably will call.
I would plan to raise all-in before I hit the blinds.
Ken Poklitar
Calvin,
I think this is a situation that depends on your opponents play of the game. If UTG frequently limps in with weak hands, and the decent player that limps in behind him does not raise, your hand probably has a good chance of winning. The only problem you may encounter is someone behind you could come in with a premium hand. So, normally I would not do what you did unless I was in late position.
Just to answer your question, the players call your all-in raise basically, if they think you are weak and/or it's not going to cost them any more money against you. I think the size of the raise is OK, and if you had at least 1000 more left they may have not called you.
here is why I would not have done what you did...
1. too many players behind you
2. even forgetting most of those behind you, there are allready two limpers plus the two blinds who may call your small raise...especially since they know you can't make them pay more
3. would be nice to have at least one high card
This play is VERY high risk, but not necessarily wrong. As you propose, if 1 limper calls and the others fold, you're heads-up and getting close to 2:1 on your money, and you're probably not a 2:1 dog. However, you might be pretty close to a 2:1 dog, so it's not a great play either. It's mostly a high variance play.
And, as others have said, why can't somebody behind you, one of the blinds, or maybe even the first limper not hold AA or KK or QQ or JJ and make you a big dog?
You might have more equity if you wait until the next hand or 2, and raise all-in as the first person to enter the pot with any 2 cards. If there is a reasonable chance that the blinds fold, then this play might have more EV for you than going all-in with JTs right now. It depends upon just how likely it is you can steal the blinds and just how weak your 2 cards are.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
you only have $625 left. once the 2 limpers come in you do noyt have enough to scare them away so they will call. you have to plays. either call the $200 and hope to flop something or muck and try to steal the blinds in one of the next 3 hands.
I've been playing Hold'em mostly limit (up to 8/16) and a lot of tournaments - limit and no-limit (up to $200 buy-in) for 10 months now.
I find that I like to play tournaments more than live games and have been beginning to leave the Casino as soon as the tournament ends for me.
I feel like if I don't continue to play live, I will not get enough experience to get my game to the next level.
Which makes me wonder what does it take to move my game to the next level?
How about to the level where I can break-even? Or make a living?
Any feedback is appreciated.
Hank,
Good questions.
I don't know much about how many people actually break even or make a living at tournaments. I wonder do players like Phil Hellmuth or Men Nguyen play in the live games?
I found TJ Cloutier's Pot/No Limit hold'em book to be helpful with the No Limit tournaments.
Good Luck
discipline + study + versatility + play = the nuts
jg
Hank, I guess we all like the limited risk and high payout of tournaments
your post suggests that you may need improvement in the live games. If that is true, then it probably also applies to your play in tournaments.
since experience may be your best teacher, and because tournament play is somewhat different from live action games, then I must suggrest that you favor playing in the games...untill you do better there, you probably have even less chance in a tournament
If you want to improve your tournament game, play more live games ? What are you talking about ?
If you want to improve your tournament game, play more tournaments. I completely fail to see how playing live games could be more beneficial (to your tournemant game) than spending the same time playing tournaments or thinking about your tournament strategy.
Andy.
Andy, of course you are right. I sense that he falls into the "dead money" bunch in a tournament and needs much more basic strength to have any hope of a win...and his chance of a win is greater in a game where he faces only 9 other players.
to specialize in tournaments, I fell that one needs to start with more strenght than it appears he has...his money would be better spent in learning the game.
Thanks for all of the comments.
I don't think of myself as dead money as I have begun to finish in the money more lately.
As for live play, I have been averaging more than 1 big bet per hour playing 6/12 and 8/16 for the last three months (small sample size, but it coincides with tightening up to where I am closely following Sklanksy's pre-flop recommendations).
Anyway, I just seem to get more of a charge out of playing tournaments. I have several in-the-money finishes the past few months and I was toying with the idea of dropping my live play so I could spend a bit more time in the ocean, or with my wife, or working overtime...
I don't think that playing only live games is the way to improve your tourney play, but it is certainly better to mix in some live play than to play only tournaments. It's like cross-training in sports. If you only do your one thing, you won't actually get as good at it as somebody else who adds in some cross-training.
I think every type of poker or even non-poker strategy game you play will improve your main poker game. If your only goal is improving your main game, then the question is harder, i.e., HOW MUCH cross-training is optimal?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think everybody has to make their own decision. What are your motives for playing? Do you want to be a professional? I believe if you want poker to be your primary source of income, you have to do well in live play. The ups and downs of tournament play just doesn't allow a player to make a steady income unless you get very lucky early or have a very large bankroll.
About 95% of my play is tournaments. But I play for recreational purposes and to satisfy competitive needs. I enjoy tournaments more, do better in them, and they do satisfy the competitive needs. But I don't require a poker income to make a living.
The other thing to consider is your playing style. Some styles are just more suited to tournaments. I believe that is the case with me. I don't do well in live limit play, do better in limit tournaments, but best in NL tournaments. I know other players, some big names, who I never see playing live.
JohnnyD
I have just suffered a bad beat :( KK v AK ace on the river... cest la vie :(
I am left with one 500 chip and the button... 8 players remain... the blinds are 3000-6000 average stack i guess is about 20000 so the blinds are huge in comparison with stack size (about 150000 in play).
i have 6 hands til my bb... when dealt AA in the cutoff and all having passed to me... do you think I did the correct thing in passing???
My reasoning... I will almost certainly have to beat both blinds... (no certainty) and even if i win this hand.. i only have 150... I will have to win at LEAST 5 more hands before i am in with anything like a realistic chance of a significant payoff... so I decide to pass everything in the hope a couple of short stacks bust out in the blinds and inch up to 7th or 6th.
payoff schedule was something like...
1st 10k 2nd 5k 3rd 3k 4th 1.5k 5th 1k and then dropping by 200 increments..
comments appreciated...
cheers,
Keith
why not just try to win this hand, and then try the same thing?? To pass with AA is a mistake. Just beacuse you still need to win a few shouldn't matter. What if the blinds had decided to play this hand?
Well, I'd tend to agree with the arm, unless there were people who would be forced all-in by the blinds ahead of you, in which case you definitely did the right thing by folding
Oh my God!!!
I might play the hand but if you are wrong in folding it is close.
If there are a few short stacks that are about to hit the blinds then folding correct. If the blinds are about to increase then I definitely fold.
The only reason I might play is if I win I get to 1500. Then if I can win the BB hand against 2 other players I might be able to fold the SB and still have chips.
Ken Poklitar
Keith,
I think waiting for the blinds is the best strategy. This gives you the opportunity to move up the payout scale if someone gets busted out Even if the average stack is 20000, with the limits at 3000-6000, someone could easily lose their stack.
At best you could win with the aces, but it could easily lose in a multiway pot, which is what you get. Now, if you win, at best you may have 2000, but still be forced to play the same blind. So, by playing the aces you take twice the risk of getting busted. You may even want to put your hands in front of your chip so non-observent opponents don't realize that you only have a chip left.
I honestly don't know Keith, it sounds close. I wonder if Gator saw this post :-)
If you do decide that the situation is right to fold Aces though it might be right not to look at all just to avoid temptation ...
Andy.
I think I am going to play this hand. I agree that it is close, But, if you play this hand and win you will have 1500 (I assume the 150 was a typo). When the BB gets to you in will go the 1500. If you lose your done. But, if you win you have between 3000 (if only the SB plays) and 4500 if you play a player other than the SB.
If you win the BB, you have 4500, and can pass the SB if someone is close to busting. If you play the SB and win as well, you will have between 9K (if only against the BB) and 13,500 (if against another player).
So by playing and winning with AA here you still need to win the BB, but you have some chips to get another round if you do (and passs on the SB). This extra round may be the difference in moving up in the money.
If you pass, you still must win the BB, and you will have between 1000 and 1500--this is not enough to get through the SB, Thus you MUST play the SB.
See, in either case you will need to to win your BB and one more hand. I would rather take my chances with AA here, then a random hand in the SB. The value you are gaining by passing is that someone busts before your BB. This is only 6 hands or so (if you are in the cutoff). So I think it is unlikely (unless someone before you cant make it through the blinds).
So in summary, if someone will not be able to get through the blinds before you mucking is correct. But, if nobody is likely to bust, I think you need to play the hand. Wither way you will need to win the BB and one more hand. This one is better than a random SB.
I think this is a clear fold.
The key here is that if anybody else plays a hand, then at least 1 player is all-in. The blinds are so huge compared to the stacks that there is no way to play a hand without somebody being all-in preflop. Given that, plus the fact that you can fold up to 4 more times after this hand and watch others play, I think there is an excellent chance you move up at least 1 spot, and a good chance you move up 2 or more. I think that equity is worth more than tripling up now with a small chance of going broke, when you'll still have to win the BB hand after this.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well, I just finished my 150th $10 hold'em tourney on PP. I have placed in the money 45 times (hehe - I'm exactly average 30% in the money). Of those times I placed in the money, 12 were 1st, 20 were 2nd, and 13 were 3rd. What I'd like to know is a) how does this ratio of 1st:2nd:3rd compare with others who have played a bunch of these tourneys, and b) to what extent do you think these statistics are influenced by chance, that is, should I take this as reasonably good evidence that I'm an average player who needs work on heads up play, or should I be less concerned with the results after 3 are left and instead focus more on my early play? Also, should I lean towards maximizing the frquency with which I reach the final 3, or should I be attempting to improve my chip position at the time I reach the final 3? How important is chip position going into the final 3 relative to my playing strategy once we're there?
I don't have any books which dicuss tournament play, except for Caro's brief synopsis in Fundamental Secrets of Poker, and Sklansky and Malmuth's discussion of short-handed play in Hold'em for advanced players, so any general tips on how to play these one-table tournies would be appreciated. Also, if there is a good book on limit tournies that I've missed, let me know.
Thanks in advance for any advice/critiques, Lenny
I think your ratios of 1st/2nd/3rd is fine. More seconds then thirds are good. A few more firsts would be nice but it is somewhat of a crapshoot once you are down to 2 players.
What you do need to work on is getting into the money more often. 30% money is average. You would like to get into the money 40-55%.
My strategy is to play pretty good cards early. Don't get crazy in the 1st 2 or 3 rounds. Early on raises will have less respect. I will still raise with good cards but marginal raising hands I will either call or muck. Be wary of cold calling raises. There are players that are there to gamble. Let them have their fun. These players tend to either end up in 8th/9th/10th or have a nice chip lead. More often then not these players will blow their lead later on because they continue to play every hand.
Once the blinds are getting higher raises will get more respect. You can then steal some blinds or atleast get headsup with 1 opponent. Once you get down to 5 or 6 players left it is time to watch how the opponents are playing. If you have lots of chips don't try to run over the table unless you have good cards. I see players with a big lead blow it all. Pick your spot when you are down to 5 or 6. I try to come in with a raise when I am down in chips to get it headsup.
Once you get down to 4 you should try to maximize your chances of getting in the money. Often you will have one other shortstack who is willing to battle the big stacks. Let them.
Once you get to 2 you need to be aggressive. Once you see the flop and hit it you may have to put it all on the line with bottom pair.
Ken Poklitar
Thanks for the input Ken, Do you play passively in early rounds or do you just tighten up your hand requirements? Also, exactly how loose do you have to play when it gets short-handed. I just busted out 4th in a tourney where I had 2500 with 4 people left. Every time I made a steal raise, the blind called and the flop missed me completely, so I'm wondering whether I should be betting out more on the flop despite having nothing? I know that luck is luck and a single result could be because of it, but I feel like I'm frequently getting busted out in 4th or 5th because I get down to being the short stack and have to make a move. This time there was one guy with ~400, one with ~1600, one with ~3500 and me with ~2500 when it became 4-handed. I didn't call any raises, but I frequently raised the big blind with hands like K5o that failed to hit anything on the flop. Am I making too much of this, or should I be playing much tighter with 4 people left? The guy who had 400 doubled through twice, and the money was just going round and round with the blinds.
I ended up calling on the button with QJo after UTG had called, the small blind raised, and both the big blind and utg folded. Should I fold here? (I had about 1400 left after my initial call, and the small blind had about 650 after his raise, it was 400-800, so the big blind was 400).
I decided to call, and the flop was rags. He bet out, fold, call or raise? (he now has 250 left after his bet, I have 1000 before calling. Bet was 400).
I decided I was pot stuck at this point with the blinds about to hit me, so I called and then called again on the turn. Nothing came up and I lost to his KQo.
Again, thanks in advance for any help, Lenny
Passive is never good. Early I would say I tighten up. I mostly agree with what Bill said about this.
When I am 4 handed and there is a small stack I have no problem folding and letting someone else go for the kill. If I choose to play 4 handed it is likely I am going to raise.
2 handed I play fairly loose. I am not going to play complete cheese but I will complete my SB bet for a lot of hands. And if I get raised by the BB I will call the raise more often then not. I probably don't raise as often as I should headsup.
Ken Poklitar
When you get short-handed, you can't just play when you have a big A or a pair. If you raised with K5o and the big blind called, but then checks to you on the flop, you've got to be prepared to bet. There is a very good chance that he also missed the flop, and will fold to your bet. Of course, take the player into account. If he's been a calling station before, he won't fold his A2o now, so you should be less inclined to bet. If you've seen him fold before in spots like this, be more inclined to bet out now.
Overall, once you take the aggressive lead, keep that lead unless you've been given reason to back down, or you are against multiple opponents (in which case bluffing usually won't work).
Now, let's consider your hand with QJo above. You've got 1 limper and you call. Why not raise? Why give the blinds a cheap/free look at the flop? When the flop comes Q or J high you'll probably be in the lead, but how will you know, since they could have anything? Plus, if you raise now, and the limper calls, there is a better chance that he checks and folds when he misses the flop, which will be the majority of the time. Now that you just called and the SB raises, I think you must see the flop with your hand, since you're getting 5:1. And you miss the flop, and he bets into you. No way you call here. If you think you're beat and you think it would be wrong to chase, you fold. If you think it would be right to chase, you must raise here. If you had raised, even though he only has 250 left, he might feel he's drawing close to dead and try to save his last chips to squeak into 3rd place. If he does call, you're no worse off than if you called here and called again on the turn (as you did). Basically, calling on the flop here commits you to the pot, and if you're committed you might as well make the only play that increases your chances of winning, which is to give him a chance to fold right now.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hmm, maybe I've just lost a bit of my aggressiveness in the late rounds. I used to bet out on the flop after raising from the sb with no care about whether it hit me or not, but I ran into a lot of raises which forced me to fold or (worse) calls by an opponent with top pair, which usually made me inclined to bet the turn, at which point I got crushed. If I raise from the sb and the bb calls, do you think I should bet out on the flop every single time, most of the time, or only slightly more often than when it helps me? Likewise, if I raise with K5o or Q6s or something like that, and the bb reraises should I always call, or should I call only if he tends to reraise with some hands worse than mine? Also, how often should I make it 4 bets when the bb reraises, or does it depend too much on the player?
You shouldn't be raising the vast majority of the time from the SB unless you have reason to believe the BB will fold too much. You're out of position, so unless you have a monster hand like a big pair, the only reason to raise is because you expect him to fold often enough to make it profitable. Now, if you're down to 4 players, and you have more chips than the BB, they often should fold, so you do raise more. Yet, if they call here, keep in mind that either they have a very good hand OR they don't play very well. You need to estimate which it is.
Like you say, it depends upon the player. It is often hard in these short tourneys to figure out the opponent, but you must do your best, and use that information to make your decision. So, I can't tell you to raise 20% of the time, or 50%, or any other specific number. The correct answer will vary a lot from opponent to opponent.
As for calling the 3-bet, it is almost automatic, because the pot has gotten so big. In the late stages of these things, by the time 5 pots have gotten into the pot, something like 1/4 or 1/3 of all the money in the tournament is likely out there, and you usually have to call the 3-bet and hope to suck out or hope he's bluffing.
As for 4-betting, I seldom do it. Usually, by the time you 4-bet the pot, one of you is all-in. I like to save that 4th bet and bet out on the flop. That way, if the flop misses him, he can fold. Sometimes he's folding the best hand, and if not, he's folding where he has reasonable odds of drawing out on me. Only occasionally is his fold going to be correct. And, if you do flop such a monster that you want him to call, then check and figure he'll follow up his 3-bet with another bet now, and put himself all-in for you.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Although it looks like poker PP is not the same as REAL poker. Your record is OK - I tend to have a higher wins rate than 2nd or 3rd cuz if I can get short handed I can dominate with a bigger stack.
PP just seems artificial - the hands ar eway to big and I just don't beleive it is the same as a dealer and deck of real cards I may be wrong but just the other day I had a straight flush and 2 sets of quads in less than an hour - that just ain;t natural it happens way to often - oh well this is bound to bring the cyber punks out of the wood work and challenge me to prove it but I just don't want to know.
I'm cashing in and going away from PP once again don't know why I started up again anyway.
I've played between 200 and 250 PP tourneys and have never had quads or a straight flush. Why you'd complain about getting monsters is a mystery to me.
In my experiences, finishing 3rd, 2nd, or 1st is highly dependent on skill, especially in the $10 tourneys. There are a LOT of players who give away blind money when there are two or three players left and ever more players who simply check and fold when they don't flop a pair. Nothing beats an uncontested BB win with a 62o.
With what % of hands should you open raise from the button 3-handed? What about from the small blind 3-handed?
If it's 4-handed with stacks that are all about equal, what hands should you be open raising with UTG? from the button? from the small blind?
Should you ever be calling the blind when you are first in and it is 3 or 4 handed?
Would it be better to play a hand like K4o or a hand like 87s when it is short-handed?
Should you ever be calling the blind when you are first in and it is 3 or 4 handed?
Almost never. The only time I'd do this is when I'm short stacked with a huge starting hand.
Would it be better to play a hand like K4o or a hand like 87s when it is short-handed?
It's extremely close but the K4o is a favorite.
Getting to the money is the goal in any tourney. Online or in person, it doesn't really matter. My PP online success rate is closer to 60% in the money with aprox. 100 games under my belt. A deceptive aberration? I don't think so. Of all my online adventures, finishing less than 6th is unusual. And it is often due to a so-called bad beat that cost me a lot.
My basic strategy for success is being super tight early. Some players think that because the limits are small, they can take more chances. Why bother??? Play the best hands the bestway you know, and don't screw around mediocre stuff or with crazy bluffs and overplaying hands. Save it for the end-game (3 or less remaining). I've sat through 25 hands without playing a single voluntary bet, and finally I get a good starter, win- and endup in the lead from one hand. Unusual example, but true. Much to the shugrin to my fellow competitors. It only takes one or two hands to get a sigificant lead.
Know your opponents, all of them. Think of catagories to put them in. Always be able to reconsider if you see something new in them. Don't be stuck thinking someone is a bluffer crazyman after a few hands. He/she might be a really good player just advertising. Adjust your play to the overall pulse of that particular table. By the third round you should have a good idea about everybody and the table as a whole. Play accordingly.
-Bill
I have had similar results. I have played over 200 tourneys on all levels and have amased a 37% win rate with a 58% in the money. In the 1st 2 levels of the toureny your premium hands have to be played carefully..Lots of players will draw for straights and flushes..if they beat u shake it off and remember they will be out soon..as u get down to the final 3 or 4 ppl..play very agressive and raise blinds..if u have the stack punish them for calling..that's my key to winning..gl
"Getting to the money is the goal in any tourney"
No.
However, in these PP tournaments, you are closer to being correct with this strategy than in any other tournaments.
Andy.
Ok, how many mistakes did I make in this hand?
I'm on the button with 4 people left at the end of a tourney. Real aggressive player is in the big blind with 1060 after posting the 400 blind. The other two players are fairly tight/predictable or at least have been so far this tourney. UTG limps in and has 1910 left after the bet. I have QJs and raise leaving me with 2280. SB folds, and BB reraises, leaving him with 260. UTG thinks for a bit then calls. I call. Stacks are now BB with 260, UTG with 1110 and me with 1880, pot is 3800. Flop is A88 all red (my cards are spades). BB checks, UTG checks, I check. Turn is the other red A. BB bets all-in, UTG folds, I call. River is a blank and I lose to the big blind's KJo. I don't think I played this hand correctly, so where did I go wrong?
You can't steal with this raise, so why make it? Either fold and let them knock heads, or call and wait for the flop to decide what to do. Now, if there is a reasonable chance (say, 20% or better) that you'll win preflop, or a good chance (say 50% or better) that only the limper calls and he will check-and-fold pretty much every flop that misses him, then you should raise as you did.
As for how this hand played after you did raise, I would have bet the flop. It isn't very likely that anybody has an 8, and if either player has an A he should have bet out. So, bet the flop when they check to you, use your position to get a hand like KJ to fold, as well as hands like JJ even. I would have a very hard time calling your flop bet with KJ in this spot, even given the size of this pot, because I'd be afraid that I have to hit 2 kings or 2 jacks to win, and if I fold I still have a shot at creeping into 3rd place money. Similarly, unless he's trapping with a monster hand, the limper has to fold here, especially if the BB already did fold (if he calls now, he really needs to call to the river, and with his stack that will put him all-in, and out of the money if he loses).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
First hand of the final table at a limit stud tournament. Four places pay. Low card brings it in. Known tight, aggressive player acts next and raises with a Queen in the door. The next three players fold. You have (7h7c)Kc. Sevens and Kings are live. One club and one Queen are gone. The cards left to act behind you are a Six and the other Queen. Betting is pretty high relative to everyone's stacks. The raiser has about two big bets left before the start of this hand. You have a relatively large stack. The Six has a medium stack, and the other Queen has less than two big bets left. How do you proceed?
We are down to sixteen players in a limit hold'em tournament. Nine places pay. You raise, first in, from the cut-off seat with A8o. Only the big blind calls. He is previously unknown to you, but appears to be playing pretty tight. He has about five big bets in front of him at the start of this hand, making him about average at this stage of the tournament. You are sitting on huge stack. The flop comes JT9 with a two-flush. The big blind bets out. What is your action?
I would dump the 77K hand. If you do play it, you must raise to make sure the hand is heads-up. Basically, the reason you can play this hand for a small profit in a ring game is because you'll know where you're at in the later streets compared to your opponent. That is, the money you put in now is at a slight loss, but the money that goes in late will generally be at a slight profit for you. Here, there will be no late betting, as the opponent will be all-in beforehand. So, I think you have a hand that is a small but not insignificant loser, so why play it? Even thought the chips he loses are worth more than the chips you lose, it is still probably a mistake to play this hand.
In the HE hand, I would raise the flop. It seems unlikely he has the made straight unless it's the 78, so you probably have a good draw here. If he is betting top pair or the like, he will probably have to fold when you raise, so give him the chance to do so. If he doesn't fold, you're not giving up all that much EV most of the time. Of course, if there's no chance he's going to dump a hand like AT or J7, i.e., a one pair hand with no real draw to it, then there is no reason to semi-bluff the flop here. Instead just call for the straight, or be conservative and fold.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
These were pivotal hands which knocked me out or crippled me close to the money last week. In the stud hand, I was the raiser with pocket aces and a queen in the door. The guy with the king in the door called, and the queen called as well. The queen went all-in on fourth street, and I went all-in on fifth. I picked up a flush draw but never improved. The queen had a split pair and made queens-up. The guy with pocket sevens (I think, might have been fives) made a small boat and busted both of us. As an aside, did the pair of queens make a good choice by picking this as his all-in hand?
On the hold'em hand, I bet the flop with KJs and was called by the A8. I thought the other fellow should either have raised or folded, and I think I would have folded in his position. It appears that he may have as many as 12 outs, but how many of them are clean? Only 8 as the cards lie, and I have redraws on all of them. I wasn't going anywhere with top pair and a straight draw. On the turn, a queen hit giving me the straight. I bet and he called. If he's not going to raise with his straight, why draw to it in the first place? A king hit on the river, reducing me to playing the board. I paid him off and went from being in decent position to being on the ropes.
I am new to this site but I would like to know if anyone has heard anything about the u.s. poker championships in Atlantic City. I would like to attend but I can't seem to find anything about this year's. Any help would be appreciated.
Unless you're going for the big side-games, don't bother. I went down for 4 events last year, and I thought that their tournaments and satellites just sucked. You get almost no play for your money. Big events with hundreds of entrants, and they're all done in like 9 or 10 hours. In the NL HE event I played, even during the first level, it only took 2-3 pot-sized raises to commit more than half of your chips to the pot.
By the time players were onto the 3rd or 4th level, almost all pots were over or somebody was all-in preflop.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Geez Greg,
I have seen you post 5 or 6 times here and on RGP about how bad the TAJ event was last year. Why dont you tell us how you really feel.
It really looks like you are biased against them. I cant tell whether it is because of the bad management, bad structure, poorly run cardroom or what--of course all of this is true.
Actually in all seriousness, Greg is correct. I went to the taj last year planning on playing in 4 or 5 event. I played in 1 event and 1 satelitte and just left. It was the WORST structure I have EVER played in. I would seriously consider checking the structure before going back. If it is the same as last year, I wouldn't go within 100 miles of the place--it was a pure waste of time.
Of course they do offer the beautiful AC boardwalk at night for scenery--if thats your thing.
Well, so as not to be totally negative, I heard that the structure for the main event, $7500 NL HE, was quite good. So, if I win a lot of money at FW this winter I'll probably go down to AC just for the big one and the big side games.
Also, once you could get a seat (long waits, busy room), the side games were generally very profitable.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Drew,
The reason you have not found anything is because they have not advertised yet.
I heard they will start advertising either this issue of Card Player or the next.
P.S. it should be same time as last year's.
For what it's worth....
I learned to play poker against Russ Georgiev and his brother Andy in the early 1960's - we were all teenagers. Russ Georgiev is a self admitted card cheater who has been continuing an expose' about cheating at poker on the rgp site. What Russ has done with his life is unfortunate but the information and allegations that he has brought forth are going to affect poker for a long time - especially big tournaments!
If anybody would know the dark side of poker, it would be Russ Georgiev. If Russ says there is big time cheating in major tournaments, you can bet your bankroll that it is happening. I for one am not going to fly to California or Nevada to play in poker tournaments until poker management can prevent the passing of chips between players and can guarantee that stolen tournament chips cannot be introduced into a tournament.
I might suggest that one way to stop chip passing or the introduction of stolen extra chips would be to make the tournament tables digital with the action performed electronically similar to the internet sites but with a live dealer. A central computer could then track everyone's chips.
The fact that Russ has stated that current Internet Poker is not legit is also good enough for me. Again, if anybody would know about this, it would be Russ. I would be interested to know his opinion about the new Party Poker site which is being headed up by Linda Johnson and Mike Sexton - two people that I have a lot of respect for.
Moron
Poker rooms should introduce new sets of chips if the old ones have been compromised. (ie. missing).
Unlikely that Russ could honestly know the legitimacy of online poker. He would have to have intimate knowledge of each site to know what they were up to. He might on the outside chance know one site owner, who he may not take a liking to, but that doesn't mean the entire industry is corrupt.
I am a ring game and limit tourney regular but I am going to play my first No Limit tourney for the first time this week. Any hints or suggestions?
This tourney (at Foxwoods) has unlimited rebuys for $20 and the buy in is $25 (I believe).
Thanks, Dan
Welcome! You certainly must be talking about my favorite regular event, the Tuesday night NL HE tourney at Foxwoods. Yes, it is $25 + 10 to buy-in, and you get T200. Any time you have T200 or less, you may rebuy and get T200 more for $20. At the end of the 3rd level, you may rebuy if you qualify, and you may also add-on no matter how many chips you have. The add-on is the same price, and you can buy T200 for $20 or T400 for $40.
Personally, I rebuy before the first hand is dealt, because rebuys are +EV (they are cheaper than the original buy). I also rebuy or double rebuy whenever I am qualified to do so (preferably, I am never qualified, as that means I lost chips). Finally, I always take a double add-on no matter how many chips I have.
But, you're new to this game. In my case, I know from past experience that I have +EV in the tourney, and that I win more than my fair share of the money. So, for me, rebuys/addons certainly increase my EV. However, as a newbie to the game you may be buying chips that are worth less than you paid for them, because they're in YOUR stack. Hope you're not insulted, that's not what I intend. I just mean that until you learn NL, you presumably aren't playing at a profit. So, you might decide to not rebuy as freely as me, and if you have a reasonable stack at the end of the 3rd level, you might choose to forego the add-on. If you do so and you're wrong (i.e., you are at least an average player), you'll be giving up a few dollars in EV. If you're right, you'll be saving a few dollars in EV. If an extra $20 or $40 is no big deal to you, then go ahead and take those rebuys/addons.
As for playing strategy, just use your head. If you're in a limit tourney with AQ and you become worried about being outkicked by AK, it only costs you a couple of big bets to find out. In NL, it can cost you everything. So, if you're in a spot where you're unsure about your hand, and don't want to play it aggressively, be more inclined to fold rather than call. In NL, people do more trapping, and you'll see them play a lot of very weak-appearing hands whenever they can get in cheap. Keep this in mind, and don't assume that you can put it all in the middle just because you have AK and the flop is K83. People play hands like 83o when they can get in cheap.
The play will be more loose and more multiway during the rebuy period. After the rebuy period, things will start to tighten up, and by the time you get down to 2-3 tables, almost every hand will be over preflop, or down to 2 players preflop. This is the stage where you should be more worried about whether the opponent will fold than what your cards are preflop, or what they make with the board postflop. This is the time for playing the player, not the cards. Early on, it's about the cards and the player. I'm more often concerned about winning the max with my big hands early on. Later, I'm more often concerned with who I can steal from.
Of course, against me and a few others, you should have a hard time figuring out where we're at. Lately, we've been getting 90 or more entrants in this thing, and I'm hoping to break 100 soon. There are many very weak players in this group, so don't be shocked when somebody calls your substantial raise with cheese. You need to start evaluating your opponents from the first hand, and remember to be alert for their changes, especially after the rebuys end.
Feel free to say hi tonight to the guy with the fossils and necklaces.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks Fossilman. Good luck and try not to steal too many blinds from me.
Good advice from Greg as usual.
Let me add a few things about bluffing and raising.
You always hear of these great bluffs that players make in NL. Early in the tourney I would be wary of bluffing since you will tend to get called. The cheap rebuy aspect of this tourney allows players to call with hands you wouldn't expect them to. Semi-bluffs are okay but as Greg said this tourney does have a lot of weak players who will call you down.
I would stick to playing the cards and not getting overly fancy. As you play more NL you will realize how important playing the players are as well as the cards.
As far as raising you will notice a wide variety of styles of raising. You will see players raising the same as limit (doubling the bet), going all-in or raising some random amount. If I am first in the pot I tend to raise to about 3x the BB. So if the blinds are 10-15 I might make it 45 or 50 to go. If someone has limped in I might make it 60 to go. I try to do this with good hands as well as marginal raising hands.
Have fun and good luck. I will also be playing tonight. I'll be wearing a green Boston hard rock cafe shirt.
Ken Poklitar
Thanks Ken. Good luck!
I'm the kid with the Red Sox hat backwards (probably not lasting very long).
Weekly Home tourney. Pays 3 places (10-30-60%). 4 players left. No Limit betting, 200-400 blinds.
UTG opens for 900. She has a pretty big stack, maybe 2500. This has been her standard raise (its a small one but she has been raising 500 for a couple rounds, not paying attention to the increase in blinds. She is a newer player but a solid hand reader and very aggressive at NL. This raise could be AA or any other pair, A-big, K-big, QJs even; its hard to put her on a hand when she has a big stack and is open raising the same amount each hand she plays).
UTG+1 folds. He has about 1600.
SB thinks for a minute and calls. He has maybe 1100 left after calling.
I am in BB--have posted 400 and have 1000 left. The pot is now 2200 and I need to call 500 to continue. I have Ad4d.
What is my play pre-flop?
How should the fact that we are 1 player away from the money affect my thinking?
Assume I call. The flop is AhKd9h. The SB goes all-in.
Do I call?
Thanks for the comments.
KJS
Preflop, I say fold. Why risk having an ace come up and getting trapped into playing against a bigger ace, especially against 2 players, when the sb may well bust out and leave you in the money?
On the flop is a tough decision (which is why I said to fold preflop), but I think you have to fold here too. If you knew for sure that UTG was going fold to this bet, you might be able to call, but even then you run the risk of the sb having a bigger ace than you. With UTG still to act behind you, though, I don't see how you can call this bet, since it will put you all-in in a situtation where you could easily have the 3rd best hand. Again, the fact that the sb losing will put you in the money means you need to get off the hand.
No, I don't call here. You're getting 4-1 on your call, but you may already be beat in both places, and in the remote chance you are not, you are STILL not a favorite to win this hand. If you DO call, I would certainly play the Ace for the best hand with that flop and go all-in. Because the stacks are so close in size, I think it's a bit irrelevant about whether or not you are one off the money -- this hand isn't worth the action regardless.
seems to me that Lenny is 100% right
looks like you best chance is to lay low and hope someone busts out...you have enough left to go thru another round or two of blinds doing nothing unless you catch a monster hand
I muck preflop. There just seems to be too much chance that one of them has a better A. Once the flop comes down, I think you call, as the pot has gotten too huge. I count T7500 in play, and this pot has T3200 in it, costing you your last T500 to call. You win this, you've got half the chips or more. You lose, you're out. You fold, you're down to T500 with T200 of it going into the SB next hand, you'll often still finish 4th, and you're going to be lucky to do better than 3rd even if you do survive this hand. Since 1st is 6x as much as 3rd, once you call preflop with A4, I don't see how you can fold when you flop your A. I mean, you weren't calling T500 just to flop 2-pair or better, right?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Certainly I hoped to flop better than 2 pair.
I knew a couple things that helped me decide: The UTG player would raise with KQs as easily as 77-TT, and of course all Group 1 hands. The SB loves the big cards--to him a bare A or even King-big is a call here. Ditto for a small pair.
So, I called pre-flop and on the flop and the UTG player folded. I showed my Ace and the SB said "Oh, you got me" and rolled over K9s. Then the table pointed out he in fact flopped 2 pair. IGHN.
Turned out the UTG had TT, SB K9s and me A4s. Regardless of having a chance (better than 4:1?) I agree I should have mucked pre-flop. In most cases are am probably a bigger dog. In a bigger tournament with more experienced players I certainly will.
Thanks as always.
KJS
You would've been only a very small favorite over the K-Qs (less than 6-5) and a dog (2-1) to a middle pair such as 8-8.
But you had to fade TWO people, which makes you an UNDERDOG to ANY hands held by both of them (worse than 2 to 1 against if they hold pairs or two big cards). As it stood, even if you had gotten headsup with the 10-10, you would've been going uphill, with only the one overcard and the longshot draws for outs.
I would play a hand like A-4s short-handed, but I wouldn't be calling any raises with it.
But you were committed on the flop so that was not a mistake. Once the Ace comes, you realistically cannot hope for better than that and must commit. Anyone who would make a big laydown here doesn't plan on winning the tourney.
You need to muck preflop, but Greg is correct once you called preflop you are stuck. You have to hope that you are against KQh in the SB, and QQ UTG. This is VERY wishful thinking, but the pot is way to big to fold here.
This is of course the reason you need to fold preflop.
I was recently playing in a 200 player on-line torny which was down 16 players. The torny paid $33 (1%) for places 20-15 and $67 (2%) for 14-11. I was in 12th place chip position with $409 on the BB. Looking at the torny status, I could see that at least 2 players would be all-in on their next BB. The blinds were $200/$100.
The table folded to the SB ($600 in chips) who raised to $400. I held AQ off and having been "card dead" for 3 rounds - assumed that he was picking on my short stack and went all-in (a raise of only $9).
The board came 10,5,3,9,4 rainbow and the SB showed Q10 off exiting me in 16th place with a 3 outer.
Upon reflection, I feel that I made the correct play of playing the hand aggressively preflop even though by being knocked out I lost $33. If I hit that hand I will be at the final table and I was sure that I had the better of it from the SB's prior play. 10th position paid $100 and up from there.
I was hoping to hear some thoughts on this hand.
Will
You did the correct thing. AQ is an above average hand and your opponent may doesn't need much to raise when it is folded to the SB.
Ken Poklitar
Thanks fro all people who answered my previous post (NL HE: trips vs 4 flush)
Here's another situation that has many "follow through"
No-limit tourney $250 buy-in freezeout. VEry WEAK opponents (for someone was the first tournament) except 3 players (average players).
Early stage, I'm dealt A-J in late position, everyone folds, I raise $340 (blinds $40-$80) to "steal" the blinds, SB folds, BB calls after a short thinking. My bankroll is about $2200 and his stack is about $2500. THis player (BB) is very weak calling with almost every hand---loose passive player).
Flop is As-6s-2s.
I want to know where I am and (despite the threat of the 3 clubs) I bet without exitation $400, BB with a long thinking disgustly calls. I put him on a medium pair or with some sort of draw.
Turn is Qd. Quite quickly I bet all my stack (all-in) because I think he hasn't a good ACe, a made flush (slowplayed on the flop) or Q-Q hitting a set. After about 3-4 minutes he calls and in the showdown flash Kd-Ks. No doubt, the river despite my prays is the Qs. He wins with nut flush.
Questions:
If I played with a decent player I had to throw my weak hand preflop as KIngs normally are worth a big reraise before the flop but, without reraise, after the flop I felt I had the best hand.
-Did I make a mistake betting on the flop? Had I to put him all-in on the flop? Had I to check?
-Did I make a mistake shoving all my chips on the turn? (ON 4th card I'm sure he has a flush draw and I'm favorite to win the pot with only 1 card to come)
Thanks for comments,
Marco
with 800 in there and 2200 left id bet the whole wad on the flop. although he might have called anyway. or you could do what you did and fold if a spade comes as long as you are sure he wouldnt bluff you out. i dont like this play much. on 4th street you did the only possible play.
Thanks for the answer Ray, and what to do in the same situation with the same opponent if I was dealt 6-6 hitting a set on the flop?
Ty if you answer me again
Marco
the situation is still close between 66, and ace jack. as you tend to get beaten by the same type of hands although the trips do better ofcourse. id be more inclined to lose more on the flop in these type of hands with trips as you can still easily win if he has a flush. but remember the more he is willing to put in the more likely he will have the flush.
Bad beats don't bother me. Sometimes uyou take a beat so bad that you will never be able to make it in a lifetime of tournament play. We are heads up playing for $1080 in lammers and cash. I am outchipped T2200 to T800. I am first to act with A9 offsuit. The blinds are T50 and T100. I mave allin. I am called by KTo. The flop comes A96 rainbow. Turn is a T. River T. ouch!
Foxwoods rule:
NL tournament, person UTG makes it $200, player on my right says "All-in" and puts $900 in front of him. I have $1250. Without speaking, but in one motion, I put ALL my chips in past the line. Because I do not have enough to double the last raise and because I don't say "All-in" it's considerred a call only.
I really would love to hear from other rooms regarding this poor decision. My contention is that the game should be able to be played silently and it's clear that I was raising all-in.
Floor says the rule is to prevent a person from making a move... ie: if the next 2 people call the $1250 and then I say I was really only calling.
I say this is rewarding a guy who might try this as a move. They should penalize the "move" by requiring it to be a raise, never a call.
What do you all think?
Keep playing hard!
It may not be a great rule, but irrespective of what "should" happen I think you have to be pragmatic. It doesn't cost anything to state your intention, raise, all-in, or whatever.
There were a lot of problems in the pot-limit games at the Orleans I played in, yes they had one or two very strange rules, but all problems could have been avoided by people just saying what they were doing.
Andy.
I agree with Glen that one should be able to play poker silently. Poker rooms can be noisy and I don't enjoy raising my voice. I don't agree that voicing ones actions cost nothing. Can I be sure that I haven't given some extra information by speaking? Does my voice tremble when I have aces? I hope not. But why take the chance?
That does seem like a mistaken ruling. You should call Mike Ward some night (he is running the graveyard shift, I believe) and ask him if it was correct by Foxwood's rules, or the floor made a mistake here. If it is by the rules, then let me know, because I'll be one of the guys asking him to correct that poor rule.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Glen & Greg......I've seen it called BOTH ways at Foxwoods!
In NL, I would agree with Glen; i.e. "chips speak", and, because he pushed 'em all in, let his "raise" stand. It is, after all, No Limit Poker, and the only time that the "short raise" rule should be invoked in a NL game is when the person taking the action has more chips in his stack behind the line, i.e., he has enough chips left to complete a legitimate 2x re-raise.
As far as the floor justifying their ruling by saying that it prevents angleshooting, I again agree with Glen; it actually encourages it. IMO, each player must be responsible for their own actions. In a NL game, if I make a mistake by pushing in too many chips without verbalizing my intentions, I believe that my actions must stand.
In the FL tournaments there, believe it or not, I have actually seen it ruled both ways, and have pointed that out to floorperson making the ruling. In a FL tournament, with so many mistakes being made by people intending to call a 200 bet with a 500 chip etc., the rule seems to be that unless you verbalize your raise, it is considered to be a call only.
It seems to be that there is some confusion in the floors' mind between NL and FL?
The best thing that they could do is to have a written copy of their rules readily available to quickly resolve these kinds if inconsistencies.
Funny thing was, that the tourney floor was on break and the temporary floor ruled in my favor but was told he did wrong after the fact.
B<)
I had an interesting situation somewhat like this.
It's NL. I've flopped an open ended straight flush draw. An early position player makes a small bet. I call and it's now heads up. Turn nothing. He makes a small bet and I call. The river completes my flush, but doesn't make the straight flush. He, without saying anything puts a stack of chips out. I think he's all-in and say "call", but put my entire stack out. He is not all-in and puts the rest of his stack in, calling what he thinks is a raise from me.
I said "wait a minute, I didn't raise, I said call". He said "you put your entire stack out there, that's a raise". The floor, in my opinion, ruled correctly and said my action was a call, not a raise. As it turns out, he had the nut flush.
JohnnyD
But you said "call", which changes everything. If you had just put out your whole stack and kept your mouth shut, I would say you raised all-in, and hold you to that action even if you told me otherwise.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
After discussing this with the floor running the tournament and he, in turn, discussing with Kathy Raymond, the poker room manager (Mike Ward is out for a while, very sick) the rule has been changed a bit.
Under the new interpretation, my action would indeed be a raise all-in. However, where it could be mistaken as a call by an ambiguous amount, it would be a call.
For example, say the bet was $600 and all I had left was (2) $500 chips and through them both out without saying raise, then this would be a call.
I think that this will solve most problems.
See, it does pay to "bitch" sometimes. LOL
Keep playing hard!
I agree with your "playing silently" comment. I once played next to a guy who would call, but when he had a great hand and was slowplaying would say "I just call". I saved some money by mucking marginal hands when he did this.
I think what really should have happened was the dealer should have asked you "Are you raising or are you all in?". A good dealer should do this as it's his/her job. Also, mention it to the tourny coordinator. If you can calmly explain that you're not mad (you may be, but I think you hold a little more credibility if you don't say it -- it bothers you enough that you sought him/her out, that says something--), but the dealer should call time and verify play before moving on. I always see the coordinator meeting with dealers before the tournament, so it's quite probable that he/she will mention it in the future.
Good luck next time.
Knocked out at eleventh in a tourney that pays 9 spots.
Bay101, Sunday AM Limit HE tourney, 100 entrants.
Down to eleven players at 2 tables, hands being deatl at each table hand for hand. I have about 2/3 average stack, about 5 1/2 big bets.
I'm on the button, everyone folds to me, I look down to find pocket 88's. My impulse to to throw away, but then I think, this is the "perfect" blind steal situation, and no one else wants to put too much at risk here during this "rocky" period. Big blind has folded to my raise before.
I raise, SB folds, Big blind reraise. Uh oh. I call. Flop, low rags. BB bets, I raise, he calls. Turn, rag, BB bets, I call. River, a 10, BB bets, I call. BB flips over pocket JJ. I am crippled and get blinded out at 11th before anyone else gets cracked.
Did I blow it big time?
I'm going to raise on the button with 88 pretty much every time myself, especially in limit HE with 11 small bets in my stack. However, once the BB, who you said has folded previously, makes it 3 bets, you've got to really slow down. You also need to be paying VERY close attention to him when the flop comes down, so you can better judge where he's at.
If you sense any weakness, then your raise on the flop is fine, as you could be ahead of AK or the like, and you hope he'll fold now. Once he calls that raise, and then bets out on the turn (another small card), you have to seriously consider folding. Admittedly, the pot is huge now, and you'll risk 2 big bets to win 7 by calling him down, but what are the chances that this player doesn't have a higher pocket pair than you at this point? There are players I would call down on this fact pattern without hesitation, but against most I would fold on the turn.
Of course, once you call the turn, calling the river is automatic. 8:1 that he has AK or the like is too much to pass up.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Nope - it's the way it goes - trick is to continue to be in position to score - you can't win or cash if you bust out in 55th place.
I have been busted out on the bubble so many times I have lost count BUT I have also won or cashed in a high % of the tournaments I have played and you can't do that if you are driving home while the final table is being formed.
I could go along with every part...even the raise on the flop (that one was for more info.) But by him betting on the turn, I think that's when I would have folded. For one, you paid for your information you got, he bets into your raise. Everything you said about the guy would made me folded, 1)he folded his blind before but he three bets this time and bets into your raise on the turn. RUN!!! unless you like drawing for two outs. But even at the worst case senario, you should have folded on the river when you didn't improve. Save those chips and one shot it next time, main key survival. Remember your uhoh feeling and go with it....
Also I forgot to mention that you said that this was a "rocky" period. Put yourself in the other guys shoes... If he doesn't defend his blind but reraises this time during this period, even more reason he wouldn't be bluffing. He drew you out as much money as he could. Remember this move when you are in this postion because he bet the turn into you because he didn't want to lose your bet. You were a calling station to him... DONT be a calling station. SURVIVE SURVIVE SURVIVE... The only thing he didn't do was flip over his cards before the flop. You even put him on it... TRUST yourself. You are the only you got!!
Recently tournament directors from around the country met to consolidate rules for tournament play. Changes with sufficient support i.e. voted upon are in effect for one year. One of these changes is a rule that states that once all action is complete that is to say a player is allin all hands must be turned face up. The stated reason for this is to prevent collusion. Let me ask you if I make an oversized bet with nothing and put myself allin and I am called was I colluding or was I trying to bluff? This will be determined on a case by case basis by the tournament staff. I do not favor giving away any information that I do not have to. I want every player to be allowed to misread the board and to throw his winning hand away. I do not like this rule change though it does prevent some arguments when some dim bulb says can I see his hand? If collusion is sufficiently pervasive maybe we shouldn't play at all.
i dont like this rule not because you have to show but you have to show before the hand is complete. when you may have a decision on a hand for a million dollars and may not feel comfortable with the dealer or anyone else that could be in a position to influence the outcome to know what the best hand is at the time.
Well, let's say that short-stack goes all-in. I'm behind him with a big stack and I go all-in. Of course, unless they have a monster hand, everybody else is going to fold. Now, once the river comes down, short-stack shows his unimproved AT or whatever, and I muck. IF we were colluding partners, I might be mucking the best hand as a way to pass some chips to my partner, as well as ensure that he won those blinds. This is what they're trying to prevent.
Now, I agree that this isn't much of a problem, or at least I don't believe it to be. However, if the only counter-argument against this rule was some people don't like showing their hands (and giving away more information about how they play) unless necessary, I consider that to be an almost meritless position. Showing 1 or 2 extra hands during a tournament is not going to teach people how you play, is it? I don't think we have to prevent more than 1 episode of collusion in order to justify exposing 100 fairly played hands that would have gone unshown.
Here's my issue with the rule. Let's say you don't expose your hand until you're sure there can be no more action. Let's say you're wrong. Don't you get a 10 minute penalty or worse for this? This is pretty harsh for somebody who was just trying to comply with the other rule about exposing hands when somebody is all-in. But wait, easy answer, don't expose your hand until the dealer tells you to do so. OK. The dealer instructs, you follow, but wait, the dealer thought the guy in seat 9 was all-in, but he actually had a few high denomination chips left to play. Now what? Clearly you shouldn't be penalized, but how to we properly play out this hand? No answer is going to be 100% good here, the only question is which of the various bad options available to us is the least bad?
If you didn't have to turn them over, then the dealer wouldn't tell you to do so until the river. If the player had chips left and kept his mouth shut while the dealer put out the entire board, we already have rules for that. If you exposed your hand early thinking the player was all-in, we have rules for that as well. But, the dealer wouldn't be instructing you to take an action that caused the problem.
I still don't mind the rule, I just think my concern is much more, um, concerning than yours.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I have to agree with Greg on this one.
I think that in light of all the recent allegations about collusion in tournaments that this is a very good rule.
I must say that I am more concerned about the recent allegations concerning passing of chips between players during tournament breaks and the introduction of extra chips not issued during the tournament. I'm surprised that there hasn't more discussion about those issues and how to prevent them on this forum.
This rule is in place at my cardroom, almost once a tourney I see someone exposing their hand thinking that the other player is all-in. (In one case the player in seat one showed AA - his opponent was in the ten seat and was the only person who didn't see the cards. :)
The rule will in any case not stop collusive chip passing as the partners can use any opportunity when heads up to make a non all-in bet followed by a further small bet. The "chip passer" folds to the second small bet and both hands hit the muck.
"The rule will in any case not stop collusive chip passing as the partners can use any opportunity when heads up to make a non all-in bet followed by a further small bet. The "chip passer" folds to the second small bet and both hands hit the muck. "
I was not talking about dumping chips to a partner in a hand. I'm talking about giving chips to a partner during breaks or when a table breaks down and the players are moving to a new table.
It has been alleged that this is quite prevalent in the Southern California tournaments.
Sorry for the misunderstanding - I was not replying to your post. I just read the thread and yours was the last.
I agree about it being a small price to prevent even small amounts of cheating. But in many rooms, your hand is DEAD if you expose it out of turn. Now they come up with a rule that is almost in direct conflict of this. I have already seen two pots in the last month (about ten tournaments) where a player exposed a hand thinking the action was done and that they were compelled to do so, and had it declared dead. You can say they were an idiot and it was their own fault, but now we're setting up rules to basically trap the players. That can't be the best thing for a sport.
JG
Glen's post make me think of something I saw at the same tournament at Foxwoods.
On more than one occasion a strong player put in a bet that was slightly less than double the blind. Before anyone notices, several people have folded. I suspect this was not an accident on this players part, but an attempt to narrow the field without paying for it.
If you believe a player has made such bet, knowing it may be called a string bet, perhaps even hoping it is. What is the best way of negating any edge he has gained, or better yet profiting from it?
Call attention to it the first time, so he can't do it again. Also, I'm unsure about this. Let's say 4 people fold, and you now make a big reraise. Imagine the blinds are 200-400, he makes it 700, and you raise to 2,000. If all fold around to him, what are his options? I would hope that he can either call, fold, or raise, but that if he chooses fold, he loses 700. What I mean is, he can't say his raise was incomplete and therefore invalid, take back 300 to leave out a 400 call, and then fold so as to only lose 400. I'll have to check with Mike Ward on that one.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Not that this will be of any help but . . .
At the Taj a couple of years ago, this happened to me in a super. The blinds JUST went from 100-200 to 200-400 and UTG made it 600 to go. 3 people folded to me, I moved in for about 2200 (with QQ). When it got back to him they noticed his raise was not complete. They made him complete it to 800 because their was substantial action based on his supposed raise. He then had the option to call or fold. The worst part about this is that I did not want to comment on what he should be allowed to do for fear of giving a tell. He wanted to get 200 back. I would not offer an opinion, he took this as a tell that I wanted a fold, and called with AJ. He flopped 2 pair, turned a full and IGHN.
what is IGHN? i go home now? ive got hot nuts? its getting hard now? ill gladly help noone?
In almost all casinos that I am aware of, any incorrect bet, raise etc. would be binding if there is "significant action" after it. Meaning more than 1 player acting (either folding, calling or raising).
In the instance that Greg mentioned, the player who incorrectly raised to $700 would most likely be allowed to raise, fold or call but not get his $300 back as more than 1 player had acted thus constituting "significant action".
The question to ask Mike Ward is whether or not the original raiser (The $700 man) would be required to put out the other $100 to make it an correct raise.
In any live game, this would be the correct call.
Keep playing hard!
Until recently the answer would have been that since the bet wasn't doubled it would not be a raise and the action would continue as a call. At the recent Tournament Directors meeting at the Bellagio it was agreed that in the future the player who put in the incorrect raise{as long as it was over half the bet} would be required to complete the raise to its minimum raise and cannot increase his raise because of information gained by players folding. If the player made it less than half the bet it would be considered a call.
At the Tournament Directors meeting at the Bellagio it was agreed that in the future the player who put in the incorrect raise{as long as it was over half the bet} would be required to compete the raise to its minimum amount...Example a $200 blind..player makes it $380....he now has to put in $20 more for minimum raise and cannot increase his raise because he may have gained information by players folding. If the player would have made it $290, less than half of the bet it would be considered a call.
What is the proper definition of blind stealing? I'm always reading in tournament reports "I was able to steal a few blinds". Does this mean raising in late position with total cheese (J-6, 10-4 ect.)hoping the blinds have nothing? Raising in late position with a good hand (A-J, K-Q ect.) that you would rather win with right there? or raising in late position with a fair hand (J-10o, 8-7s, Q-10s ect.)that you would prefer wouldn't get called but if it did you still have a shot at hitting the flop? Of course not necessarily to a reraise. All these questions assume "in the money" is not an issue and you are in a position where stealing the blinds is a viable option. It also assumes you don't have a premium hand (AA,KK ect.) I know the specific stuation is going to be mostly opponent dependent but what is the generally the minimum hand you would attempt this with.
I define a blind steal as a raise with any hand that I would rather all my opponents fold, i.e., I don't want any callers preflop. Sometimes that includes hands like AK or JJ where you figure to have the best hand almost every time, even when they do call, but you still would rather they fold.
As for what hands I would try a steal with, it could be anything, all the way down to 32o. The real question isn't your hand, but how you expect the particular folks behind you to react. If there is a high enough chance that they all fold, raise with anything. If it's 100% certain they're going to call, you need a pretty good hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It's funny you should mention T4 because I burned a few chips with that hand last night. PL Hold-Em, Blinds 50-100, I have 3500. Folded to me on the button, I make it 350, BB calls. I have just moved tables and I have never seen this guy before. Flop comes T85 rainbow. He bets the pot, 700, and has about 1200 left.
I know there is no one correct answer but I would be interested to hear what people would do in this spot.
Andy.
I would go into the stare-down, and hope I can induce a tell. If I didn't get a reliable tell that he was weak (which is usually the case), I would muck. I would usually say something like "nice catch" as I folded, implying that I had a real hand like AK or the like. I might even ask the guy if he had AT, and suggest that he caught a nice 3-outer.
If I didn't muck, I would reraise all-in, and want him to fold. The only hand he can hold where you really want a call is 2 undercards with no 1-card straight draw outs, everything else I'd rather win it there.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
he called you preflop raise, so he could be betting on 2 overcards, an overpair, or a ten, perhaps even a bluff
all of which makes it hard to decide...guess I would just give it up sice don't know how he plays
I think you're both right that a fold would more often be correct. At least I did stick him all-in rather than call but he had QT which held up.
The lesson might be not to try to steal until you have some kind of line on the BB's play, or at least not to go mad on following it up on the flop.
Andy.
I have been giving this some thought today. Consider the case where you only have one opponent first (ie you are in the small blind). If you raise with a hand which cannot stand a re-raise (because of your opponent's re-raising standards or stack sizes or whatever) and you think your opponent is unlikely to flat call, then you are stealing. In addition, if you think the chances of a fold are in your favour, then it is completely irrelevant what your cards are - either way we are not going to see a flop.
In real life the situation is complicated slightly by there being more than one opponent behind you and by the chance that an opponent might flat call. If an opponent might call, then the cards you have become a factor, and if you might stand a re-raise from the SB because he is a maniac but not from the BB because he is a rock. Nonetheless there are times, particularly later on in bigger tournaments, when it is very probable that you will either be re-raised (and have to fold) or you will win the blinds. Still, most players will raise based on hand strength which is clearly wrong if you cannot stand the re-raise.
Andy.
You have "stolen" the blinds any time that an opponent should have called you had he seen your hand. e.g. You raise with A6 on the button and the BB folds A7. Or you go all in with 66 and he folds J7.
Looking at things from the blind "stealers" viewpoint, I think that when you raise with a hand that will be clearly difficult to play post flop if called e.g. small pair, weak Ace and there is a reasonable probability that your opponent can have a holding that will not be a massive underdog should he choose to call, you are stealing.
i was wondering if somebody out there with the software to do so could help me out. i was thinking the other day of the first n/l tourney i played in, and was thinking about the hand that busted me out. im at the final table, have short stack. (2 others with almost the same size, i have about 1 more chip than either of them), all others have me outstacked by a lot. i am already 'in the money' but for only a hundred bucks or so. i am UTG and have AhQh. i raise 3 times the BB, and one short stack goes all in, and the other one does too. i called. first allin had TcJc, other guy had 9d9s. a river J gave the pot to the first guy. i busted out on the next hand, seeing as i had not even enough for my big blind which was 36o. can somebody run a simulation for hands with AQsuited vs. JTs vs. 99 of the other 2 suits? id love to hear the results.
AhQh: 40.45%
Jc10c: 30.02%
9d9s: 29.53%
so i put my money in the pot when i had the best of it, then? were my pot odds of roughly 2-1 justifying my call when i was roughly a 3-2 dog? should i have folded because i was a dog to both hands combined? i think this is the conclusion i came to later, but i was never sure where that decision stood mathematically. thanks for the help, dave.
We need to know how big the stacks were and what the blinds were to answer these questions. Did you take these factors into consideration when you called the all-in raise ?
Andy.
first, no i did not keep these factors in mind when i called. it was my first tournament, and i was just testing the waters so to speak. i hadn't really studied strategies that dealt with stack size vs. blinds, and that kind of thing. i had never even really played no-limit before, except maybe twice at the kitchen table for about a 5 dollar buy in with 2 friends. i was very new to no-limit and tournaments, and i had no idea that such concepts were important. i do recall though that the blinds were 2000-4000 and i had 18000. (everyone starts with 200 at the beginning of the tournament). i think this might dictate a call seeing as how i had already raised to 3x the BB. perhaps this was just a dumb raise?? why throw in 2/3 of my chips as a raise (when i want to win preflop anyway) and not have anything left to back it up with on the flop? why not raise less, or raise all-in instead? comments welcome.
I agree with your last statement. If a standard raise that I normally would make requires about half my chips or more, I typically raise all-in instead. Against a certain few opponents, I might raise to just double the big blind here, and save the remaining chips to bet the flop (because I know a few guys who are just too damn curious and must see the flop, but once they miss it, they check-and-fold pretty much all the time).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
OK, here we go. Been waiting a long time for this post as it's been eating away at me for a while. It may be a bit long and for that I apologize and ask for your patience. I also thank you all, in advance, for your valued responses.
I have been going over my stats in the Foxwoods Tuesday night No-limit event for the past 2 years. 7 wins, greater than 50% final table appearances, and cash in better that 40%.
Although, in all, I am very pleased with all this, a disturbing trend has appeared... In all these tourneys, whether knocked out at the final table or somewhere in the middle, with just 2 exceptions, I have been terminated by taking a middle pair (8,8-9,9 or 10,10) against Ax or vice-versa and not surviving the outcome.
Now I realize that these are about 50-50 hands and I am sufferring from an extreme deviation in that I have not faired better, but I'm getting frustrated because I can't seem to survive this scenario.
In most cases I have been the aggressor, making a large raise, often all-in, trying to win it preflop without a fight. A few time I have had enough chips to make a large raise and save some chips if the flop was favorable, but usually it has been late in the tourney when the blinds are large and I make a bet of 4 to 5 times the big blind.
When I have the pairs, I have always made the big raise, first to act, and have been called by the lesser hand. When I hold the AK, AQ, first to act, make the big raise, and get called by 88 or such, I draw blanks and the pair holds up. I can recall only 2 instances of me being behind preflop.
I have been very selective about who and when to play these hands against and it shows in my overall success but it still kills me to think what might have been had these 20 or more episodes not taken place at such in-opportune times.
My only thoughts are to raise less money (and risk more callers) or get away from these hands all together.
Neither of these ideas is likely to result in more wins as my overall aggressiveness will suffer and I feel I won't get as deep into the tourneys as I do now.
Perhaps this is simply normal as I can't win them all. Maybe when good players don't win, these are the hands that usually do them in.
Your thoughts and ideas?
Keep playing hard!
If your stats are right - You are way above average assuming these topurnaments have 50 or more players starting.
You are talking about the classic matchups in NLHE specially final table stuff.
Two over cards against a pair is a about a 50/50 proposition with the pair having a slight math edge.
All you can do is play it strong and take the wins when they come atleast you aren't doing the calling with a substandard hand like J8s in these situations.
The way I look at it is if you are usually leading pre flop you are getting your money in when you have the best of it and that is all one can do in this game.
I do think that slick is often overpalyed in this game they don't call it "Walkin' back to Houston" for nothing.
I agree with Rounder's comments and perhaps you are forgeting about the +EV you are gaining when you take the blinds from players who probably should call, e.g you raise with 88 and they have Q9o and fold.
The stats are right. As I said, I'm overall very pleased with my play. And from reading your post, I guess that my comment about this being how we get knocked out, is normal.
Thanks Rounder, just wanted some confirmation that this wasn't a consistant mistake I was making.
Keep playing hard!.
great post...i have found this to be a major in/out of tournies also...have decided to be more selectve and let others involve themselves in 50/50 situations...but equity is lost...depends on how much ya want victory(1st place)...gl
>>Now I realize that these are about 50-50 hands and I am sufferring from an extreme deviation in that I have not faired better, but I'm getting frustrated because I can't seem to survive this scenario.<<
You say how many of these confrontations you've lost but you haven't said how many you won.
!
You're actually running good, as I suspect a bunch is a lot more than 20, so of these coin toss hands, you're winning more than you're losing.
I knew you were just running good all those tourneys.
;-) (I know, I know, everyone should sense my sarcasm, but without the smiley, somebody won't)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
LOL
NL tourney, started with 78 players, down to 5 tables. There is 468000 in play, I have an above average 15000 and the blinds are 500,500. I am in the second blind with AdKd. I have just moved to the table after a table break and have never seen my opponent before, but as he has travelled some distance to take part in the tourney, I probably should have assumed that he was a good player. He raises 2500 from middle position, I just call. What would you have done?
Flop is AAJ rainbow, I check, he checks - should I have bet?
Turn is a 7, still rainbow - I bet 5000, he raises 5000, what would you do at this point?
Result to follow.
I kinda like your call preflop as you get to diquise your hand and can easily dump if you miss badly. I don't think you should have bet the flop, you truly flopped huge and want him to commit.
Now for the circumstances that followed... I suspect that the result will be him having pocket jacks or kings and you get busted out after you move all-in. I would certainly move all-in after his raise as he could easily be moving on queens, AQ or a variety of other possibilities including AJ.(also a possible nutcracker)
But if you got beat on this hand it's just one of those bad situations that come up. You have to move it in. If you don't with this hand, then you'll be running scared too often to do well in the long run.
Hope you won against AQ.
Keep playing hard!
COuple more things (after reading the story over again). You should have bet the flop and try to get the same info here as you did if you reraised him on the turn. By betting the flop into a raise in bad positioin is also telling him you have TRIP ACES minimum. If he raises you could reraise and if reraises... fold. If not a reraise then call and bet into him again on the turn. If he raises at this point... fold. I change my prediction to pocket 77.
I would have raised for info. and see what he would have done. This might be bad just because of position (I'll explain later). If you raised, you are telling him and the whole world you have trip Aces minimum, if not the full house, since you called his raise in bad position. If he raised you back, I would dump immediately, since its totally clear what you are representing. It would be a gutsy raise for him knowing you will call all the way with trips Aces minimum. However if he just calls, you should feel strong since he backed down, but you still have to be careful of weak postion, since he may be slow playing his JJ or AJ hoping you would bet again. It's hard and your stuck, you can't really fold that hand. My guess is that he was raising with JJ in middle postition to steal the blind and you just got stuck with good cards. If you raise him there is a chance that he might tell you early.... real hard for him to reraise unless he has reason to. I hope I gave some more insight on how that could have been played. Hope you won though :)
No.
If, as I suspect, this tournament is taking place in the UK there is no way I fold AK on a flop of AAJ to any kind of reraise or even re-re-raise, to someone I've never met before. You would be amazed at the hands people turn up sometimes and anyway his play would be entirely consistent with AQ. There are plenty of players who can't see further than the two cards in front of them no matter what you have "told the whole world"
Andy.
I ditto Andy, this hand is one you're married to, so start paying alimony.
The money isn't deep enough to do that. Our hero put 3K in the pot preflop, 5K on the turn, and the raise is 5K more. Just calling the raise leaves him with only 2K, so the answer here is call or reraise his last 2K. I would go ahead and reraise now. To beat him, the opponent must have a full, and he will certainly bet the river with it, and our hero must call for only 2K more. If he isn't full, our hero is ahead, and should get the money in now.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks for your comments.
I went all in, got 300 in change and he turned over JJ. The river provided no assistance.
Could I have got away from this hand? I really did not give more than a passing thought to AJ or JJ and called on the basis that he could have held AQ or AK. But I think that he bets small on the flop with AQ to see where he is. (Although he has a big hand he cannot give me a free card, because he can't really put me on a hand). He checks with JJ and AJ and also I think with AK, as I have to be full to beat that.
When I am raised on the turn, I think that it is unlikely that it is AQ, but AK is still possible. It is such a huge mistake to fold to either of these and the fact that I still have outs on the river, I think makes folding impossible.
As an aside, would any of you have considered going all in pre-flop? I generally don't like doing this when in a comfortable chip position, but it would cetainly have out him in a tough spot.
I really hate calling with AK. The problem is that when you hit and get action you are usually beat. Yes, you flopped trips. But, the flop could have come AJ6, and you still might lose a great deal (or all of your chips). This is why I dont like flops with AK.
I might re-raise, and if I did I think it would have to be all in. It is close, you can make it like 8 or 9 K, but it then becomes hard to get away from for over 1/2 of your stack.
Is the TAJ holding the USPC this year, or are they going to wimp out? What a disgrace to east coast poker if this event does not go off.
:o)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I hear many of the big names are coming to Foxwoods for the WPF so maybe it's off. They only held that because Trump hates Foxwoods and tries to steal the big names during this time of year.
Well, I'll be at Foxwoods. But it seems they moved the tourney up a couple of weeks so as not to conflict with the TAJ. Anyway, it would be nice to have the big names hang around and just come to the TAJ in DEC after Foxwoods. The WPF is going to be great though.
I play at TAJ and talking to the PR manager, Tom Gitto, it will be held at about the same time as last year - after Foxwoods.
We are playing in a $330 buyin event with multiple bebuys. Each player is allocated T500 in the beginning with T500 for each rebuy. We are at level two with the blinds T10 and T15. A world class player, in my opinion, raises in middle position to T60 and is called by the button. The original raiser is steaming and is on his 6th buyin. I have T910 after posting the BB. I reraise to T250. I am called in both spots. The flop is Qd9c4c. I move allin for T675. Both players call with the original raiser now being allin. We all show our hands. I show AdAs. The original raiser shows Ac7c. The button shows QcJc. The turn is Ah. The river is 6c. I really like how I played this hand. I would appreciate any comments. I did not rebuy as I felt somewhat dispirited.
The only way you could have won the pot would to have went all in pre-flop, after the flop there is no way they are leaving. Keep playing hard.
I can't imagine it would be correct to move all-in preflop unless you felt you had to be heads up. You would be wrong in picking up just the blinds and the $60 from each player. You played the hand as good as you could. You could have checked the flop but you still have to call any bet or raise all-in. What really hurt you was the fact that this was still inside the rebuy period. Those 2 probably wouldn't be so quick to try a drawing hand if they would be knocked out in the process.
I would have re-bought if funds were not a problem. Clearly you played better than they did.
As far as the one guy being a "world class player" you give him far too much credit. Real world class players don't steam and don't call huge re-raises with A7s.
By the way Johnw, Keep playing hard is "MY" line! LOL
I never saaid it was correct to move all-in just the only way he could have won that pot. And a good line, it is hope you don't mind me helping you spread the word. lol, thanks
You played fine, Chico. Just unlucky. He picked up the miracle card (many clubs out) but I have many doubts he is a world class player calling a raise with A-7s in that spot. AS Glen posted, going all-in preflop is not worth the risk.
Marco
The player is Stan Goldstein. You would think a player of Stan's ability would not steam but believe me he will. His steaming at this moment is in part why I played the hand the way I did.
Chico -
At the Legends of Poker, going into the final non-championship event (i.e. the final event which counted towards the point standings), Goldstein was second in points to John Juanda. As such, he was probably taking any and all means necessary to finish high, which usually translates to trying to win big pots early, during the rebuy period, and gambling a little more. Just a thought.
WOrm
I like the way you played it too. If my bankroll was OK I would have rebought but just taken a walk for a hand or two to regain my composure, because this sounds like a good game to be in.
Incidentally one or two players who I view to be the best around Europe are also prone to steaming during the rebuy period, that doesn't mean you can take them lightly at other times.
Andy.
I wish I would have thought of merely taking a walk after rebuying. In that split second I just did not feel like continuing. I will keep this in mind for future tournaments.
Going to the World Poker Open in Tunica next year to mostly play in side games but will give a shot at tourneys. How do the satellites work? What is a Super Satellite? How much do they cost to enter? What do you get if you win one? Thanks
Satellites are generally single table freeze outs winner take all (except for chops) - super sats are multi tables with all but the spare odd dollars going toward tournament buy ins - IE: say there is 10,500 in prize money for a super - 5 palyers will usually win a 2K seat with tthe $500 going to them in some sort of distribution or possibly the 6th place finisher will get it - it varies from tournament to tournament.
Costs vary too - payoff is usually in the form of tournament chips usually $500 which may be sold.
Adding to what Rounder said, Super Satellites are usually for the main event only while one table satellites are usually held for the event that will happen the next day or that day.
For the one table satellites, you can expect to pay just over 1/10th of the cost of the event for which it is being played. (i.e. for a $1,000 event, you'll probably pay somewhere around $120 or $130 for the satellite) If you win, you'll get 2 $500 chips to buy in to the $1,000 event, plus you'll get a few dollars in cash. I believe they structure it this way so you'll have some extra cash to tip the dealers.
For the super's, at the WSOP the buy in was $200 + some juice and the rebuys were $200. This was for the $10,000 main event. I'm not sure if the main event in Tunica will be $5,000, $7,500 or $10,000, but I'm sure the structure will be simular.
JohnnyD
This January in Tunica World poker open will be $10000.buy in with$1,000,000. guaranteed.
just in case you don't know--I was there about 3 weeks ago for the smaller (4 days) tournament at the horseshoe which was first time I had been in Tunica in past four years---
anyway what I want to tell you is that Omaha (high only) has taken over all of the money games. several tables of pot limit, and none of hold-em pot limit. some of those were VERY big.
largest limit hold-em was one table of 20-40
however, turn out in Janurary will be much larger so guess there will be more variety?????
About midway in a 70 person No Limit Holdem tournment (no more rebuys) with a typical 10 place payout. Blinds are at $100/200. I have $1350 in my stack and pick up QQ UTG. I raise to $500. Next to act (NTA) makes it $1000 ($4000+ stack). Mid Position player(MP) calls ($3000 stack) and BB also calls (all in for $900). What is my play?
For the record, I reraised all in. NTA reraised me again going all in and the MP called all in. I got lucky and spiked a 3rd queen, winning a huge pot. NTA had KK, MP had AKo and BB had JTs. My question is: should I have folded to the 1st reraise since there were 3 players already committed to the pot? What tipped my thinking was that I had the blinds coming up and would really have only one round left to find a hand. Had I had say $2000 left in my stack, I may well have folded. Should I have even considered folding in that situation with either amount? Thanks.
1,230 stack minus your 500 bet = 850 remaining which will cover blinds allmost 3 rounds
I don't like QQ in this siuation and would fold with hopes of finding a better place later
QQ probably work good in a heads-up situation (but also KK with 2 other opponents in the pot are a terrible holding...)
I like your $500 raise since if you are reraised all-in you can throw away the hand with some chips left (I know it's hard but in many situations you have to do it....). With another player in the pot calling the reraise your hand is almost DEAD. Yeah, you can hope your two opponents have the same holding: A-K or one player AK and second player AQ or a lower pair than yours (in this scenario your are favorite to win the pot). But in the long run Queens are toilet paper in the situation you described.
QQ in that spot is good only to pick up the blinds or in a heads-up situation. KK in a 3 players all-in pot (later stages and with no small stacks forced to put the money involved) have almost the same problems.
Marco
The problem with folding is that I really don't have 3 full rounds. I must post my blinds the next 2 hands which will leave me with only $550. If I do not get a playable hand in the blinds, I must put my money in during that round (so I really only have 12 hands total to find a better situation). If I had more money, I beleive you are correct and a fold might have been in order.
Calvin
Personally I think you should have raised all-in to start with. A pot-size raise would be 700 which is more than half your stack so you would essentially be committed. Given what actually happened you win more the way you did play it but that's not the point.
Making it 500 and possibly folding to a re-raise is scared poker and you will cost yourself more than you will earn the times you out-think yourself.
With 2000 or more in front of you, if you make it 700 and get re-raised (and potentially cold-called) it is a tough spot. You have to do the best you can based on your knowledge of your opponents.
Andy.
It's very easy, knowing the outcome, for all these people to tell you to lay down QQ to a reraise in this spot. But in real life, many of these situations are more like some fool raising his TT to get heads up. Now the other 2 callers do represent a problem cuz your Q's go down in value. But I think you played the hand ok. Andy has a point about the raise all-in to start but the trouble with that is you can only get called by a hand that probably can beat you.
No one has mentioned the possibilty of calling the re-raise and moving first on the flop if it comes below Q hi or better yet with a Q. Though a bit weaker, this play might be ok if an A or K or both flop...then you can dump and still have some life left. This would not be my first choice for a play but only you can decide what is best based on your knowledge of the players involved.
I like your play, glad it worked out.
Keep playing hard!
Going all-in here is fine, as is just calling and then betting the flop (maybe check-folding if the flop has an A and K).
When it comes back to you, there is T3600 in the pot, and you only have T850 left. Even if we assume that usually only 1 person will pay off your last T350, that means you're getting about 5:1 for your money here. Now, if you go to the river, you will make trip Qs just about that often. Plus, there is only 1 raiser here, so only 1 person who might have a pocket pair of KK or AA, and he could just as easily have JJ or TT (unless you know something about him). So, if he does have an overpair, you're getting a good price, and if he doesn't, you're ahead with a risk of getting sucked out on.
Overall, this is too big to pass up.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
greg is right, the price is right when you are behind,added to the slim chance you are ahead it is worth playing.
If you play, I prefer raising to calling here. There is a chance (although slim) that if your raise reopens the action (I did not look closely to see if it was 1/2 a bet nor do I know the rules of your cardroom), that the NTA moves in and the MP folds. Any player that folds here is a plus to you. By just calling this will not be possible. Basically you are "colluding" with the NTA to get the MP player to put money in and then be forced to dump his hand.
The other reason to move in is that you cant really muck the flop and you cant really get anyone else to muck to your bet either . . . So you may as well get it in here.
I also meant to add one more point. You said it was mid way through an event. if it was late and you were trying to get into the money, this would be a clear muck.
How many turnaments do you need to play before you can say anything about your ability at that level?
Right now I'm playing at the $20+$2 level and I'm making about 8-9 dollars per turney after 25 turneys. Is that enough samples to tell me I'm a winner "In the long run"?
No, that is not enough.
Play at least 200 more and let me know what your win rate is. That will be somewhat closer to a long run evaluation.
There is no long run. By the time you have played enough tournaments to be statistically significant, you should not be the same player as when you started. Sounds like you are doing well so far though.
Andy.
does it make a difference? if we say yes, you will continue, if we say no, you will continue
just be sure to include the $2 fee in calculating your win.
looks like you are off to a good start. suggest you stay at same level for awhile longer
Friday Night Tourney at The Orleans, NL Holdem
Blinds 75 150. I have T2000 and am on the Button with 9d 9h.
Player two to my right open limps (very loose, very bad player). I raise to 600, blinds fold, limper calls. Flop: Qd 10c 4d. Limper checks, i move all in.
commnents.
You say bad, so you know something about him. The question is, what kind of bad? Does he have to see the flop, but can fold after? Will he fold a hand like AT after this flop and action? Will he call again with AK? Does he slowplay or trap when he gets a good flop? Does he pretty much always bet out or check-and-fold? If you check, will he seize the initiative and bet the turn, whether he's got you beat or not? Etc., etc.
Without knowing what type of bad player, I can't provide much feedback here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In this case, he was very loose, very passive b4 the flop (I was almost sure he was going to call my raise). After the flop, I wasn't exactly sure what he would do if he completely missed but i was sure that he would call with a 10 or a Q and any reasonable draw.
I also forgot to tell you he had around T4000 when this hand started.
He called, turned over Q6o and won
Passive player and 2 overcards on the flop...too likely you may lose...a check was in order IMO.
Keep playing hard!
Same Tournament.
Blinds 20 40. Im in the BB with Ac4d.
Four players limp, including one Early Position player (average bad player, loose etc..) two Late Position players (both appear to be loose and somewhat agressive but its early and I've never played with any of the players at my table before).
I check.
Flop: As 9s 2c. Checked to the last position player who bets T80. I call, others fold.
Turn: 3h I check, he checks.
River is 8h. I check he bets T400. I call.
looks like he may have a weak ace
rather than call the 80, you could have raised 80 to feel him out. he may fold, and if not then you are ready to fold
ssme again on the turn, make a bet to feel
as it was played, you probably lost to a slightly higher kicker
he turned over Js10s.
Hmmmm...another marginal play here. If you're going to call with A4, you must raise. Your kicker is of no value unless a 4 shows. You need to move a guy off a hand like A8, which I'm guessing her had.
Keep playing hard!
BTW, you don't tell us how many chips all had.
That was the 1st hand at the final table in a HE tournement , I have T700 , the cut-off has T200 , mid position has T500 . There are 2 players with around T1200 or T1300 . 10th got a free buffet for 2 , 9th got a free buffet for two , 8th got a free buffet for 4 ! , 7th 50$ , 6th 75$ , 5th 180$ , etc . And I don't want to win a free buffet . Blinds are 100-200 and limit 200-400 , blinds will be 200-400 and it will be no limit when there will be 7 players left . Has I said , it was the 1st hand of the final ten and I was dealt AsJs on the button , No body limp to me and I raise , SB fold and BB calls , she seem to be loose-passive like most of the 45 y o woman . Flop come Ks8d3h and she bets into me. What sould I have done ? ......my though was that if I have put more than the half of my stack in a hand , I should put my chips left in the pot whatever I have . So I raise all-in , and she calls , she has QQ , no help on the turn and river . Should I have fold and hoping to generate a miracle with my T300 and 7 hands to play before my BB and hope to see small stack leaves before me ?
your preflop raise was O K after flop you have nothing, and it sure looks like she has something
so why call? sure your remaining short stack may not have much chance later...but it could be that you will have some chance later vs near none here
PiquetteAces,
If you think it is unlikely that the loose-passive lady will bet into the preflop raiser with nothing, then move-in. But, you did say she was passive, and usually passive players do not bet into preflop raisers unless they have something, and since you had nothing but one overcard, I'd say your chances are slim to catch the ace.
Fold your hand. From your description it appears others will have the chance to bust out before you do increasing your chances to place higher. I think what happened is you became committed with your hand. I don't think you would have called her if you had a large stack.
Good Luck
Mark
Simple I feel, you missed flop badly, muck it and hope for a better hand.
Keep playing hard!
I would be interested in this forum's opinion about the allegations of cheating in major tournaments by using extra chips stolen from smaller tournaments.
I have made a couple of posts on this sunject and nobody seems to care which I find quite surprising. In addition, there have been allegations of team play in major tournaments where team members pass chips to each other during breaks and table changes.
1. If this is happening, why isn't there a strong reaction to it?
2. If this is happening, what can be done to prevent it from happening in the future?
I had suggested previously that a solution might be to make tournament tables digital with all players' chips tracked by computer. I realize that there would be an added expense but if the poker industry wants corporate sponsorship, the games have to be squeaky clean!
Comments please.
IT CONCERNS ME VERY MUCH.
I saw a player do this in one of the night time events at the Orleans, the night before the TOC. He took an addon for a $500 chip, then went bust with a shortstack one or two hands after we got back from the break. I mentioned this to a friend sitting next to me ( a very well-known trusted pro gambler) and he said he had caught it too. He didn't make the money at the TOC fortunately(especially for him if I had finished 46th which I almost did). Maybe I shoulda said something then, but I held back until I got confirmation, and there wasn't much I could do the next day. But my eyes are going to be on him til the end of time now.
JG
i beleive you are obligated to report this to the touny director .let them sort it out .you keeping an eye on this person does not solve the problem
Why aren't the big names in the industry raising hell about this?
How come the casinos are not doing something to protect the players?
Maybe the poker industry would rather just look the other way!
I'm not a great player but I like to play in an occasional tournament. Why should I play in the big ones if I'm not sure things are legitimate?
Why aren't the big names talking about this?
I like your idea of chip tracking. I do not know if it is feasable. There are many forms of cheating. I think the most insidious form of cheating is bleeding off your chips to a partner who is low on chips. There is really nothing that can be done about this. I believe that if we complain to loudly the cheats will only get better at their craft. None of the hands I am talking about are shown down. There is just no call on the river. Players like myself with over 500 tournaments under their belt know to keep their eyes open. I have talked to some tournament directors and they have acknowledged that there have been some introduction of chips that cannot be accounted for. I would advise you to play your best game and not to lose alot of sleep over this. Simply put if you don't know for sure you are guessing.
I had suggested previously that a solution might be to make tournament tables digital with all players' chips tracked by computer. I realize that there would be an added expense but if the poker industry wants corporate sponsorship, the games have to be squeaky clean!
The solution is a lot easier. Just don't run tournaments where the same chips have different values. For example, at the WSOP, tournament chips always have the same value. Rather than starting each tournament with the same number of chips, if you buy in for $2500, you get 2500 in tournament chips. If you buy in for $5000, you get 5000 in tournament chips, etc. Satellites use different chips (and, again, are mostly the same value from satellite to satellite, although they aren't quite as careful about this as they are in the tournaments).
With this procedure, chip squirreling is still possible, and can give a smart cheater a slight edge, but nothing compared to the edge to be had from moving chips from much smaller tournaments or satellites to much larger ones at many casinos that use the flawed constant starting stack size procedure.
Puzzling comments during a PP Stud/8 tourney yesterday. With 4 players remaining, the tight/passive very short stack was in along with me (medium stack) and the loose big stack, at the 400-800 level.
The short stack was the bring-in, I called in 2nd position with live split pair 8s and suited low card, big stack was 3rd and just called with 7, nonthreatening-looking 4th hand folded. Big stack is known to raise and bet or call to the river with just a medium pair and not much else. He's been very lucky thus far.
Snip to 5th: big stack bet with 77K, short stack called all-in with just a few chips, with 2 decent low cards and a rag. I now had a 3rd eight, 868 showing, and raised, primarily hoping to kick out the big stack. I'm typically raising only with the goods, and the regulars know this. He thinks for a while and then folds, then comments "you don't want my help?". The short stack got a low and we split the pot, which brought the short stack up a bit. Big stack commented that we must have wanted the short stack to hang around, and the short stack appeared to agree with him.
I wasn't sure where big stack was coming from with his comment, since he was unlikely to have a good low hand to eliminate the all-in hand, and what I was showing and how I was betting ought to clearly have indicated I didn't have one either. I certainly wasn't going to allow big/loose stack to overrun my trips if I could avoid it, and I believe a raise was necessary.
We were 3-handed a couple hands later, and someone else raised on him and he started complaining "don't you guys know how to play this game?" and so on.
Am I missing something here?
Marilyn P.
no he is missing something. you wanted it to be headup on 5th street as you could certainly hog the whole pot if the low busted out. and you would make the 77k pay to play and try to suck out for your half. besides you had 3 low cards and could back into a low yourself. you did right in my eyes. but watch out playing those medium pairs especially when not headup.
You played it great, don't listen to most players, all you hear is whining and bad beats.
Keep playing hard!
Thanks for your response. I thought I was correct, but I'm fairly new to tourney play (PP only so far) and have been trying to figure out how to handle the latter stages. I've been learning by trial-and-error, mostly, since there's so little formal written information available.
Based upon your final comment, four-handed is too early to be getting confident with medium pairs. I've been wondering about that. I was prepared to dump them if I didn't improve, especially if it looked like he'd be jamming. He got cautious when I called before him.
Marilyn P.
This hand came up at a daily Limit HE tourney at HP...
Not sure HOW to post it best, so forgive me for revealing too much and affecting decisions on play.
Immediately after rebuy period ends (sorry i didnt have accurate guage of all stack sizes as were all about same @T1400)
Blinds 25-50 Limits 50-100
UTG been VERY loose aggressive during rebuy (who knows now) Limps MP solid Limps CutOff Limps and i limp on button with 4d5c
Sb calls and BB raises, All Call.. Pot: T600
Flop 2s3s6s
SB check BB bet UTG call MP muck CO call I call SB mucks... pot: T800
Turn Th
BB bets UTG calls CO raises.. Now what? Was going to continue this but will post play and results in next post... ***
Quick recap:
Blinds 25-50 Limits 50-100
UTG been VERY loose aggressive during rebuy (who knows now) Limps MP solid Limps CutOff Limps and i limp on button with 4d5c
Sb calls and BB raises, All Call.. Pot: T600
Flop 2s3s6s
SB check BB bet UTG call MP muck CO call I call SB mucks... pot: T800
Turn Th
BB bets UTG calls CO raises
*****
Now up to this point here is my thinking.. BB i put on large PP UTG a large Spade, i dont figure CO's raise to knock out the big Spades however a reraise will probably solve that, and i am calling this to the river anyway (without one more spade) if CO calls and checks i will check behind, if CO reraises i muck my hand
So i 3 bet the turn all fold to CO who shows his 8s9s says he doesnt like his hand that much anymore and mucks!
Important to note all during the rebuy period i have had NOTHING 84o Q3o the like.. couldnt even gamble it up with the rest of them, my image of course was that of a rock, and i am SURE CO did not believe i was capable of 3 betting in this spot WITHOUT a flush.. he explained he could only beat 7s4s or 7s5s as the table was amazed at the laydown (i did not show my hand)
I really AM stumped as to who made the better play? Obviously i won the pot, yet, if you were absolutely sure as he believed he was that the Rock next to you couldnt 3 bet WITHOUT a flush here...
As i review pot size he is getting 15:1 on the call... oh well
NEVER expected him to muck it tho...
Wow, I can't believe how fortunate you are to have won this hand. Obviously, your table image is what won you the hand, although I'm confused as to how you got such a tight table image. It was a huge laydown on the other guys part, not necessarily a good one though. I mean what are you expecting to make with 8,9s? He made the hand he played to make, why not see it through? If it was good enough to call with preflop, it's certainly a better hand after the flop.
First, and please don't take offense, I mean this as constructive way... why would you even consider playing 4,5o? It's such a marginal hand at best. You flopped perfect and still you were drawing dead on the flop.
Second, with all those spades, all that betting and the distinct possibility that another spade might show, why would you continue on with the hand after the flop?
I'm curious, how did you finish in the tourney?
As far as who made the right play, I have to be honest and say that IMO, you both played the hand badly, you just were the fortunate winner.
Keep playing hard!
My live tournament experience is limited, i can probably count the times i have played one on my fingers...
However my cash ratio to tournaments is much higher that i truly expect to be able to do in the long run.
Perhaps this is due to weekly tourneys and weaker competition or short term luck factors.
I DO agree that i took a horrible hand into play, flopped dead and got stuck in a situation i wanted to avoid, however i dont think that it was a bad spot to gamble on a marginal hand on the button with multiple limpers, should i hit to this hand well (other than way i did) i am setting myself up not only in much needed chips but establishing a precedence that just because rags are on board does NOT mean i dont have them, especially if i am in position.
Currently i am trying to manage stack size/ blinds in Limit tourneys (major problem so far as i reach final table with minimal chips) dont know if this is due to play or luck factors or what as i dont have enough play to truly gauge how i feel i am doing, other than the money in my pocket (which this hands proves MAY all be luck).
I truly dont think that ANY two cards on the button with 6 expected limpers costing 3% of your stack are THAT bad, if you can play the situation well postflop (which i may not have).
Basically everything wrong from preflop through that could have happened with my play happened, and yet i came out smelling like roses. I agree wholeheartedly here.. why i found the situation SO interesting. However i am positive i am not the first to make a major bonehead play and come out on top ;-)
FWIW: i have played 10 tourneys all FL HE or 7cs and cashed in 7 does this prove i am a capable tourney player NO..
Sorry for my ramblings, and really, thank you for being brutally honest, i DO appreciate it...
-Ray
PS: i was SO amazed at the players ability to muck this hand (which i dont think i could have) that it stuck with me and i HAD to post it..
Also to answer question why i had this image.. all of my hands through the tourney thus far (probably only about 30 of them as i smoke and was outside a bit) were unsuited 5 gappers or worse, not even during a rebuy period could i convince myself to play Q2o or the like.
Thanks again.
NL Tourney, Down to 18 players, I have T4800 in the BB. I am slightly above average stack size. Blinds are T400 and T800 with T100 ante.
I look down and see AsQh and hope to steal the pot. There are a couple of players at the table who are good and a few that just like to shove out their whole stack at any opportunity. Anyway, it's folded around to the button who (what else) goes all in for T5000. I've been watching this guy play and he's the kind that if he really has a hand he doesn't put in the whole stack. I think he's got a smaller ace, So I am at a decision.
In my warped brain, I am thinking about not just getting in the money, but doubling my chips. (1st is $1400 - I already get $25 which doesn't cover my tourney cost!).
I know if I lose I am out, so maybe I should wait for a better opportunity.
What should I be considering here? And what would you do?
Results to follow.
Thanks
Go with your first instinct. You have a a read on this chump, so why the hell not put him all in if you think you have him dominated.
Push in that stack!
Wait. I got knocked out of a tourney the same way, with the same hand, at the final two tables. AQ, as I now realize, is weak against legit raising hands. At this late, wait for a better opportunity-never go against similar chip stacks at this point if you can. In a ring game, call. In this, fold and wait.
Well, I called - and I was right. He had AhJh a matchup I win 68% of the time.
Unfortunately, he hit heart, heart, heart (117.1 to 1 according to Turbo Hold'em) for the nut flush. He started hoopin' and hollerin' and I started walking.
Just for good measure, the river produced a J!
I hate it when I call it right and still walk - I probably should've waited until I could really turn the screws or start making these plays after I am at the final table where the real money is.
OK now I've read the results :-).
"I hate it when I call it right and still walk "
Yeah, I hate that too. Hope you get him next time, but you know you made the right play. All your money at 68% is too big an opportunity to pass up by far.
Andy.
I haven't read the results yet, but anyway I say trust your read and call. All the hand-reading skills in the world won't help you if you aren't prepared to back your judgement.
If he does turn over something bigger, then you need to think about what was wrong with your read.
If he turns over something that's losing and draws out on you (or even a small pair which wins), forget about it, good play bad luck.
Andy.
Against the combination of a button-raise (always suspicious) and your read of his hand, no way you should fold here. If you do, you are admitting to yourself that you don't trust your own judgment, and you are playing passive poker hoping to get lucky rather than aggressive poker and making your own luck.
Only if you had some read or other information on this player that indicates that even from the button he's only raising with a big hand do you ever fold here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'd be interested in comments on either my play or that of my opponent in the following hand. It came several minutes after the start of an event in which we started with T5,000 in chips, one hour levels, and a first level of 25-50 blinds. Neither of us had yet played a hand:
I raised to T150 in middle position with 55; everyone folded except the big blind, who called.
Flop: Q93, different suits. He checked, I bet T300, he called. At this point, I was done with the hand, planning to check or fold to the end.
Turn: 8. He checks, I check.
River: 5. He checks. My plans, of course, change. My check on the turn was enough of a sign of weakness that he might call a bet, since the 5 was not a scary river card. I bet T700, he raises T2,000.
The board is Q9835, no suits. I can't imagine that he checked a set all the way, or that he checked any big hand on the river, since my check on the turn and a 5 on the river gave him no reason to think I'd bet the river for him.
I thought awhile; reconstructed the hand, and decided he was trying to muscle me out after my check on the turn and a seeming blank on the river. I called. He had JT for the nuts.
Any thoughts would be welcomed.
Tough spot. I hate it when this kind of thing happens. I'm much better when no-one's got any chips :-).
The check-raise on the river is the key play. Could he really do this as a bluff ? If he wanted to bluff, why not just bet out ? I would have to guess that his river actions indicate either the nuts (or close) or a bluff, and you have to think about whether he was expecting you to bet and whether he would really check-raise bluff. Tough hand to put down all the same.
Andy.
Your analysis makes sense. As Andy asks, even given your good analysis, what are the chances he's doing this on a bluff vs. doing it with a real hand?
He probably intended to check-raise the turn, and when you checked, he knew you had nothing. Now, it's true that the river card shouldn't have helped you (from his viewpoint), and he must be thinking there is no way you can call his bet. However, if he checks, might you not take one more shot at stealing this pot?
Admittedly, in your spot, I would often call as well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Does anyone know approximately what percentage of the main event entrants come from satellites, and what pct. pay the full $10,000 to enter? Just curious.
Knowlegeable estimates are all I'm looking for, but not wild guesses. Thanks.
I'll be staying at the Foxwoods in September. Can anyone tell me anything about the hold’em tournaments on Mondays and Tuesdays.
Gee....kind of a broad question. Have you checked their site as they have basic info there.
If you have any specific questions: fire away....
I'm sure someone can answer.
How much would the winner receive? How long are the tournament's? How many players? What type of format? any information would be helpful thanks.
Mon nite Linit Holdem $35 buy in 1 rebuy
pays around $1400
Tues nite No limit $35 buy in $20 unltd rebuys 1st 3 levels 90 players avg
1st last Nite paid $2800
If no deal is cut it riuuns from 7pm to at least 1am
Hope this helps
Late stages of NL event Tues night Foxwoods 27 players left out of 90. I have about $3400 (avg stack) In BB, blinds at $200-$400 with $25 ante. UTG goes all-in for $450, all fold to SB who calls (Fossilman) and I look down to see 7s,2s. I am getting over 20 to 1 actual so I call the $50. Normally I wouldn't play that hand even at 8 to 1.
Flop comes Qc,4s,Js. Greg checks, I check. Turn is Qs. Greg bets $500. I put him on a rag Q as he did not raise preflop. I raise to $1600 to move him off any spade draw. He comes over the top all-in for more than my remaining $2000 +. 1st instinct is he still on trips with a spade redraw, so I call. He rolls over Ks,10s.
In hindsight I now realize that Greg, of all people probably doesn't reraise here unless he has Full house or spade flush, which undoubtably is bigger than mine. I acted too fast and married my hand.
I'm upset that I busted out on a hand I normally would never play. Also, if the board doesn't come with Qs on turn, just any spade I could have easily put Greg on a flush and laid it down. It was just more likely when the Q paired that that's what he had.
What I want to hear is that there was some justification, pot wise-odd wise that I have to call anyway. Is there a range of hands we can give him that I would still have beat, did I have too much invested to fold, I don't think so.
Any comments are appreciated.
Keep playing hard!
P.S. One interesting side note. Exactly 10 hands earlier, same blinds, me ,again, in BB. A player goes all-in for $425. Only Greg calls, I have Kd,8h. I call the additional $25. Flop is 8d,9d,Jd. Check,check. Turn is 10d. Greg checks, I want his ass, so I check my 2nd nut flush hoping he bets river. River is 7d, putting a str8 flush on board, 3 way chop. Only Greg could escape like that. No other cards save either one of them. I hate you Greg! (lovingly)
Glen,
Even though you are getting correct pot odds to call it is very dangerous to play your hand from the BB without having a good idea of what the SB had. Since, the SB did not raise he could be either trapping you or have a hand that plays well with additional players.
After he bet the $500 on the flop, I would fold, because you have an all in player so you know the SB has a legitimate hand. Plus with all the overcards out there I would not want to continue with just a flush draw. I believe the SB flop bet would have been much larger than $500 if he had top pair or a set.
Better luck next time, and try not to sit next to this guy. I would avoid him.
Good Luck
Mark
Playing in a $110 buy in rebuy tournament - 50 some start - paying 5 - I get the final table to agree to a $100 save all agree.
I'm short stacked 5 left it's NL with 10K&5K blinds, I get 88 (sound familar) on the button and put my 12,600 in small folds bb is a bit confused as to how much he has to add to call and pushes his cards towards the dealer. Dealer picks up the cards and proceeds to discuss how little it will take to call bb takes the cards out of dealers hand (all the while I an telling the dealer to muck them cuz he folded) calls me with J3 and of course spikes a J I'm out - I DIDN'T toke the dealer - but feel ripped off - I wish flipping dealers would SHUT UP AND DEAL really we were plaing for a $5700 1st prize - I played my ass of for 4 hours without getting any real hands and then to have some flipping dealer talk some guy into calling just frosted my ass.
That's #$%*!#* ridiculous. I would have the dealer call the tourney director. I would not of tipped the dealer either !
That is a very bad job by that dealer. I would raise a stink before the flop is dealt, call for the floor, and ask for the hand to be ruled dead. Probably won't happen, but worth a try.
For the next 5700 times you win a pot from that dealer, tell him why you're not tipping him.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding has always been, once the dealer has the cards, the hand is dead.
Seems like a BIG rip-off to me. If the dealer felt he should "advise" the moron, he should have done this first BEFORE grabbing the cards, IMO.
Bum-deal there Rounder.
CHiP
I recently played in the biggest tournaments on the australian "circuit" at the crown casino in melbourne A couple of interesting hands came up and with the beauty of hindsight im pretty sure what I should have done in the situations but I'd like to see what y'all think
First hand im in a super satellite with the top 6 places being paid with a seat into the big $1600 buyin tournament and 7th getting $375 8th gets nothing
we are down to 2 tables out of 4 blinds are 400-800 and moving up pretty quickly with 500-1000 + $100 antes coming up next level
the table has been pretty tight most of the players tend to over bet with really big raises like a 6000 raise... anyway under the gun goes all in for 5000 all fold to me in the big blind I have about 14000 in chips which is a fairly large stack probably 3-4th biggest.. I have QQ whats my play?
in the big one two hands arose that have kinda left me wondering so here they are
first hand Ive just lost a fairly sizable pot of about 8k two hands later I have AQ on the button.. one before the cut off who has been routinely over betting the pot with 5-6000 raises into 3-6 blinds raises double the blind so he makes it 1.2 to go... everyone has folded and the cut off folds.. I re raise another 3000 and the blinds fold back to him he moves all in... I fold
the last hand for me the same guy raises my blind and the small blind ponders a call... the raiser is the button with a biggish stack of about 19k and I have just over 8... while the small blind is thinking about calling the button raiser looks a bit nervous so when the small blind folds I move all in over his 2000 raise on the 400/800 blinds
he thinks for a long time and then calls the 6400 and rolls over a7s I roll over 84 (o)
now hit me with the feedback and dont hold back
ps I realize 84 (o) isnt a very good hand :)
No Limit Holdem Tourment just after the rebuy period has ended. Blinds are at $25/50. I have $2900 which is probably double the average stack at this point. I limp in on the button with 77. 4 of us see the flop which comes 679 with 2 clubs. Hand was eventually won by a limper who made his flush draw. The blind flopped the nut straight (8T) so my trips finished a poor third.
Flop betting went BB $200, call by flush draw, raise to $1000 by me, call and call. Turn is a blank, check, check, all in bet by me. Call and call. (Note: BB had$2500 and flush draw about $1500).
Two questions: 1) Should I have raised pre flop. My feeling is that I am still trying to amass chips and not just win the blinds at this point in the tournment. Is this a flaw in my overall strategy? 2) Is there anyway I could have gotten away from the hand given the post flop betting? The only other sequence I can think of would be to check the turn and fold to the flush card on the river. This would have still left me with plenty of chips, but I really hate to give a free card.
One more question: What do you think of the BB's play? I would have thought that the proper play would have been to reraise me on the flop to try to force out the possible flush draw. The decision of either player to reraise the flop did cause me discount the straight as a likely hand. Thanks, Calvin
I think you should not have raised and only called on the flop. Obviously you need to figure that either a straight has been made or the other players are on a flush draw -- there might even be a straigh-flush draw out there! Since there wasn't a big raise early, I wouldn't be as worried about AK as this is a strong raising hand. You, on the other hand are on a full-house draw! When the flop comes, you have 7 outs: (3 outs for another 6, 3 outs for a 9, and one out to hit a 7 and make four of a kind. On the turn, you have an extra card to pair and then have 10 outs. I can see maybe one player bluffing, but not both. I'd stay in to the river, but just try and do so as cheaply as possible. If you hit, bet the farm.
Nice analysis Double Play. At that point set of 7s became a pure drawing hand.
Marco
K, I have SERIOUS BEEF to talk about and get off my chest. I am also looking for back-up, clarification, and yes, objectiveness about how this situation could have been played differently.
See, I enter the PokerPages free tournaments daily for practice in both limit and no-limit, and was, about two hours ago, busted out of the no-limit tournament by the following hand:
I started okay, taking the chip lead early, when I got knocked down a decent amount of chips. Instead of going on tilt, I waited, and waited, and waited, for a premium hand. They weren't coming, and the blinds (though still small at this point) were doing some damage. I was down to my last $250, and sat on the S.B. I had been forced off all my other blind bets by raises, so I was surprised when the action came around to me with only three limpers and the B.B. I held the 9s-5s, a far shot, but I knew I had to do something. Since the blinds were only at $10 & $20, it was only $10 more dollars to see a flop, if the big blind didn't raise that is, and I certainly would have folded after that. Anyway, the flop comes A-A-A! Every single bell went off in my head to fold, fold, fold! So I checked, and around the table it went: CHECK, CHECK, CHECK, so I got to see a free card: a 5 on the turn, giving me a full house! Considering that no one raised preflop, it ddin't seem likely that anyone held the case ace. But for some reason, I just didn't feel right. So I checked again, and AGAIN the table goes CHECK, CHECK, CHECK! And guess what the river card is?? ANOTHER FIVE! Giving me and the board a full house, as well as three-of-a-kind-fives for me, And I was just like, YES!!. So, I figured the best course of action was to raise all-in, making it look like I was trying to steal, knowing full well that we all could have shared the board's full house and the pot, and hoping one of the big stacks involved might call, giving me some chips. Well, the B.B. folds, the early position limper folds, a middle position player CALLS my all-in raise, and the late position player folds, but I feel confident enough, AND I AM SHOCKED when the caller shows Ac-5c!! Can you believe it?? This idiot does NOT raise preflop with A-5 suited, nor does he bet when he flops quad aces, nor does he bet the turn, and only calls on the river with one more player when he hits three fives WITH his aces!! I was enraged!! I went berserk, cursing the guy about what a punk he was to slow play the nut hand in that manner. The guy didn't utter a single word in his defense. No one else at the table made any kind of comment either.
Now, I like giving advice, and FOLLOWING advice too. NEVER BERATE ANOTHER PLAYER ON HIS POOR PLAY, and I NEVER HAVE, until then. I couldn't help it. It just felt like a total lack of respect to the game and to the other players. If you have the best hand, just bet, or raise. Do what you have to do, but don't be a showboat or slowplay it, that is a terrible way to play. The way the guy played his hand was a crime, and everyone at the table knew it.
Except probably for him.
To quote T.J. Cloutier: "Of the most ungentlemanly things you can do in poker, one is to berate a player on his poor play, and the other is to slow play the best hand".
See, some people might see this as a bad beat story, or a lashing out at another player, but I do want to learn from this. I need some objectiveness and some other points of view. What would you do if you were in this situation?
David, Mason, what are the odds of all four ACES and all four FIVES being in play?? And one last thing, it's just too bad this wasn't a live game in a casino, I'm sure I would have won a bad beat jackpot?? Then I wouldn't felt so bad...
What's your beef? Your opponent has the stone cold mortal nuts and some idiot bets into him on the river. Sounds like he played the hand to perfection and you were outplayed. The five on the turn with him holding a five makes it unlikely that anyone else has a five which is why he checked again. What's wrong with slowplaying? I always thought the object of poker was to win as much money as possible and slowplaying is a tool of the game.
Bruce
if you don't know who the mug is at the table then it's probably you... in this case you were totally schooled...
That is a tough play. Dunno how I would react in a situation like that. On the one hand the guy was taking a big risk not winning anything at all with a huge money making hand like that and checking it all the way. The only clue you may have had was if this player had raised preflop, that may have given you a hint to the strength of his hand. Other than that, I think you played it right. He just outplayed you, thats all. Just my opinion. Saw the other responses, thought they were pretty shallow, don't worry about them. You did the right thing. Good luck.
The only way aces can make ANY money is to wait for one or more players to CATCH UP. .OR BLUFF.. You have no business EVER betting out with this hand and a Bab beat jackpot requires the USE of BOTH cards..
Tournament Poker
August 2001 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo