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3-6 HE at the mirage. Game is very loose and there are two aggressive players in the game, one tight aggressive to my left, the other a semi-maniac who likes to raise often on less than stellar hands and plays draws aggressively. Not the best position at the table, but no seat change coming soon….
BTF I get AhKs on the button. 4 limp and I raise. BB is the semi-maniac (SM) who calls, all call, 6 players.
Flop is Kd Td 8s. Checked to me, I bet. BB check-raises and two call. I reraise him since I know he very well does not have me beat. He reraises again and again two more callers, I back off and just call.
Turn is Kh. BB checks, check, this time a new bettor bets out, a nice old man two to my right (this player will come up again in a future post). He has been fairly quiet and only bets with pretty good hands but plays a little loose before the flop. A new bettor? This surprises me. I decide that the BB doesn’t have me beat, and I should charge him big bucks to continue with his charade. I raise the old man. BB has a look of anger in his face and reluctantly calls. The old man calls and the rest fold.
River is a total blank. Checked to me, I bet. BB shows AdJd face up and folds. Old man calls and has KcQc. I win a big pot.
The questions raised by this hand:
1. Who would raise BTF and who wouldn’t with offsuit AK and many limpers? My feeling here was that these players were playing cheesy hands and my hand was so much better that I should raise. I am aware of the debates both ways on whether to raise with offsuit AK after many limpers….
2. What do you think of my flop reraise?
3. What do you think of my turn raise? I think this was a terrific play on my part, but some may disagree. It is true that when the old man bet that I could have been facing a full house, but I felt that the raise was crucial to drive out other players, especially since the pot was very large….
Dave in Cali
1. Who would raise BTF and who wouldn¹t with offsuit AK and many limpers? My feeling here was that these players wereplaying cheesy hands and my hand was so much better that I should raise. I am aware of the debates both ways on whether to raise with offsuit AK after many limpersŠ.
The key is you had position being on the button. I'd raise with AK here like you did.
2. What do you think of my flop reraise?
I love it, charge the draws as much as possible. Although, if I'm the SB, I would definitely play with you.
3. What do you think of my turn raise? I think this was a terrific play on my part, but some may disagree. It is true that when the old man bet that I could have been facing a full house, but I felt that the raise was crucial to drive out other players, especially since the pot was very largeŠ.
One of the best plays I've heard on the LL forum. You were absoutely correct raising the turn. The KQ is trapped and the big draw is still going to pay the price to stay in. With one card to come, the draw has 10 outs, the KQ has 2 outs, and 6 cards tie the KQ. You will win outright 80% of the time, tie 15% and lose 5% of the time. Plus, the KQ will payoff a river bet. With plays like this, you will be a mid-limit player in a short time. Well done.
1. Who would raise BTF and who wouldn’t with offsuit AK and many limpers? My feeling here was that these players were playing cheesy hands and my hand was so much better that I should raise. I am aware of the debates both ways on whether to raise with offsuit AK after many limpers….
Go with your gut, and make the weaker hands pay. you probably don't mind losing a few players, as that will increase your odds of winning this hand.
2. What do you think of my flop reraise?
I don't agree with your raise after the flop. You mentioned that he plays draws aggressively, and is a semi-maniac. What could he hold? K-10? 10-10? Q-J? I see too many hands that he could have.
3. What do you think of my turn raise? I think this was a terrific play on my part, but some may disagree. It is true that when the old man bet that I could have been facing a full house, but I felt that the raise was crucial to drive out other players, especially since the pot was very large….
I like this play. It should either give you absolute control of the hand, or let you know that you're beat, especially since anyone who's ahead at this point would have to act before you on the river.
I limp from middle position in a fairly loose passive game with pocket 9's.
Flop: 8c 7d 3h
The blinds check, UTG checks, the player to my right bets. I just call, which I think was a mistake. Should I have raised? I had just sat down at the table, and didn't have any information about the bettor's play. I figured he was most likely betting a pair of 8's or a straight draw. There was no pre-flop raising, so I didn't figure him for a higher pocket pair.
Turn: Jd
Original bettor checks, I check, it checks around.
River: Th
Now I bet with my straight, get a couple callers, and win the pot.
My main question is, am I correct in thinking I should have raised the flop to try and get anyone holding overcards to fold? And, should I have bet the turn after the Jack showed up?
Comments are appreciated.
NotQuiteDead
I just think that you'd want to bet to try to get the tighter players with overcards to pay to beat you. If you don't bet, aren't you just someone else's calling station?
This post makes a good point. The majority of the time I would play it Earl's way and not the way I played it. I simply knew that I could expect inordinate amounts of action at this particular table, so I slowplayed and went for the spectactular turn check-raise!!! After all, there was an audience on the rail!! Getting to be the one to cap it on the flop was just a freebie!! This was the best game I have been in in about 6 months!
Slowplaying is a form of deception, there is no need to be cute in a jamming game like this one.
My only complaint is save the check raise for the river. I would have led the turn despite my monster hand in both cases.
Raising with JJ in the SB is a variance play that paid off for you because you played fast when the flop came down good for your hand.
Normally I wouldn't reraise with JJ in the SB, but in this game I knew there would likely be 7 way action so I didn't mind the extra bet pre-flop. Even capped, what the hey, it's 7 way.... For the most part I do not make this play often nor do I recommend it.
Dave in Cali
I had the following situation come up the other day on a 2/4 holdem table. I had just joined the game and posted a late position blind 1 off the button. I was dealt a miserable looking 42 offsuit, and it was not raised to me, so I naturally checked. The button raised and the action was called back to me. My question here is with 7 other players in the pot and no possibility of a reraise, how many of you would call the extra 2 dollars and see the flop? If you would make the call, what do you do if you get a piece of the flop (say you flop a pair)?
Fold, Fold, Fold! The odds of you getting a hand anywhere near worth playing are pretty small, plus with seven other players still in there's a good chance one (or more) of them has an AA, KK, QQ, or JJ, and even if they don't they could stil get a good hand on the flop.
Further more, if I was in your situation with J9 I would probably fold, due to the number left in. I'd only stick for the flop with an Ace or a King, a high pair and perhaps go as low as 98 suited.
But hey, I'm a passive guy!
I think Ace-Jack offsuit is a better hand than most good players give it credit for. I tend to agree with Dave in Cali's comments. In an unraised pot, if the flop comes Ace-high your Jack kicker is probably worth a lot since anyone with AA,AK, or maybe AQ would have raised. If the pot is unraised and the flop is Jack-high, your top pair of Jacks with the top kicker is a very strong holding. No one will have AA,KK, or QQ. You can frequently get away from this hand if the flop misses you and any serious betting takes place. In a raised pot, you can easily fold unless you are in the big blind in which case I would normally call but be ready to dump it fast once the flop comes. I will also play it in a raised pot if the raiser may be on a steal or just raising light (e.g.-open raises from middle position).
A-J plays real well in a game where folks play A-x all the time. Catching someone on A-x-x flop where you have the best kicker is where you make lots of money in hold'em.
If first in, raise or fold based on the game.
If there are cllers, raise or call based on what you know about the people ahead of you.
If I have A-Js on the button or late and there have been loose callers in front. I'll be more likely to pop it so as to build a pot and also to catch all the KJ, QJ, JT that I have dominated when or if the flop comes J high.
I have read some books and I've been working on a preflop strategy and have tweaked some things for a typical 3-6 game. I was wondering if any could help me adjust it more if needed. Also if I limp then get raised what should I play in each position.
*Early Play*
Always Play 1)Big and Semi-big pair (AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT) 2)Large suited and Ten suited connectors (AK-AT)suited,(KQ-KT)suited,(QJ-QT)suited, JTs 3)The large unsuiteds AK, AQ, AJ, KQ *Raise with AA, KK (AKs AQs QQ JJ only if tighter game)
*Middle Play*
--If lots of callers in front
*Add higher suited connectors (78s, 89s, 9Ts), Lower pairs (88,99*hoping for trips) some gapped 8-10 being lowest
--If nobody or 1 person in play Add lower range high cards (AT, AJ, KQ)
*Late Play*
--If lots of callers (6+) BIG POT Add rest of pocket pairs, you are most likely gonna only see the flop, but if you get your trips you are loving it. Remember you know the lower pocket pairs are no good, but they may score you a trips, and if you are in the conservative mood DO NOT play this. Add suited connectors upto 56s and gapped upto 6-8s, only hoping for flush draw or straight draw. àAdd AX’s and higher KX’s hoping for the flush draw
*remember lots of times with these gambles we are not gonna get them, but 1/5 times we will and thats worth the 3 dollar flop call. Over time we are making lots of money.
--If raise with lots of callers If a raise happens then you will know the outcome, if GOOD pot odds then play the bad ones more then the good ones, play the flush draws, the medium pair, hoping for that miracle money maker. Remember the raiser has no better then a pair at the start. You want to add deception and play the flush, trip, straight draws, hoping for a chance at a large pot.
--If few callers <3 Play original, but play more (KQ, KJ, KT, AJ, AT QJ, QT, JT)*basically any big cards They are not the best but may see the flop with these, and pull something off. Must be sure that you are not gonna get raised, if so fold them. They are not like the above suited connectors and low pairs, they want pot odds. If raised play the good hands only.
-->SO I am basically wondering if my thinking is okay and if this strategy can be improved, any comments or constructive critisisms??
I just starting playing 1 week ago, and we played 2 games at 3-6 and one game at 5-10 and I'm up 400 american.
The overwhelming amount of money is made on and beyond the flop, most notably on the turn.
If you are playing well there, you have lots of good things to look forward to.
P.S. Now that I have that out of the way, your starting requirements are (or at least seem to be) pretty close to right on the button...no pun intended.
You might be playing a little tight - most 3-6 games allow you to play a few more hands than those you described - but if so, I wouldn't worry about it; a LITTLE BIT too tight is almost never a bad thing, especially while you are just starting out. Good Luck,
J-D
*Early Play* (the first 3 seats in a 9 handed game)
1). Big and Semi-big pair (AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT)
You should just call with TT, raise with the others.
2) Large suited and Ten suited connectors (AK-AT)suited,(KQ-KT)suited,(QJ-QT)suited, JTs
Far too many hands, you should stay with AK,AQ,AJ suited and maybe KQ suited. The others are trap hands
3) The large unsuiteds AK, AQ, AJ, KQ
*Raise with AA, KK (AKs AQs QQ JJ only
if tighter game)
The only one of these I would touch is AK and you need to raise with it.
*Middle Play* (4th and 5th seats)
--If lots of callers in front
*Add higher suited connectors (78s, 89s, 9Ts), Lower pairs (88,99*hoping for trips) some gapped 8-10 being lowest
Too many hands again. If you have 2 or more callers, you can chance the pairs you mentioned.You can add some of the other connectors like QJ-T9 assuming the pot is not raised. Your cards do not have to be suited.
--If nobody or 1 person in play Add lower range high cards (AT, AJ, KQ)
I would pass on AT, raise with AJ and KQ in an effort to thin the field.
*Late Play*
--You can play the small pairs and Ax suited, in the ideal case for one bet. Your correct when you state a set is a good hand with many players. However, you need to be real careful with small suited cards. The best sceranio is a straight, not a flush.
*remember lots of times with these gambles we are not gonna get them, but 1/5 times we will and thats worth the 3 dollar flop call. Over time we are making lots of money.
You need to rethink the above statement.
--If few callers <3 Play original, but play more (KQ, KJ, KT, AJ, AT QJ, QT, JT)*basically any big cards They are not the best but may see the flop with these, and pull something off. Must be sure that you are not gonna get raised, if so fold them. They are not like the above suited connectors and low pairs, they want pot odds. If raised play the good hands only.
If the pot is raised, I would fold all of these hands until you learn better flop tactics.
You are on the right line of thinking. In the early seats, you want to play big hands because you have to act first and to reduce the odds of the draw hands you mentioned. In the middle seats, a lot depends on the game texture, but in most cases if the pot is raised, you should only play early position hands. In the late positions, you want to play loose if there are no raises.
A more important factor is the flop. Your play on the flop will determine your sucess in the game.
Well thanks a lot, I am trying to understand the theory instead of just memorizing it. I want to get to the point where I can adjust my play style in different situations based on a learned logic, not by a memorized fact. I still am a bit "iffy" on raises after you limp, should I narrow down on playable hands quite a bit?? For instance, I would think that any suited connectors would stay in as long as there are many callers to that raise,"or" sufficient pot odds, but if you had KQo that you would probably fold with a raise and many callers as these hands do not play well against a lot of people. But then again, folding a kq would bug me a bit. What I would like to know is what do I do with a raise after I limp in, should I narrow it down a lot or should I follow through?
Any advise would be greatly appreciated
Fieldy
Pre-flop theory is fasinating, and I study it as part of my maths Degree. Keep up the good work, your theory seems very good, but just a few points I think you've overlooked. I think you have started with too many variables. To develop efficient strategy, start with unrealistic variables (i.e. set your postion w.r.t the dealer, set no. of check's + folds, e.t.c), also:
Don't fold a KQ(unsuited) too easily, the odds are still decent on the pre-flop on a reasonable sized table (4 or less still active players) and could improve with the flop, if not then consider folding.
As for your initial theory, looks ok, but I'm concerned over the "always play a 10-10" and references to K-10, or Q-10 later on. With five or less players the odds are with you, but unless your bluffing is up to scratch and you opponents are good enough to take a bluff, I wouldn't always play a 10-10 if there was more than 6/7 on the table, the odds are against you.
I wish you good luck
AS1
You can call a single raise 100% of the time.
2 off the button with AcQs, 4 calls to me, I call, button raises, SB folds, BB and everyone else call. Player on button has raised here with just about anything, very loose and agressive.
Flop comes JhTd9h, all check to me, I bet, button calls, BB calls, everyone else folds.
Turn is 8h giving our hero the straight and worrying about a flush or KQ.
BB bets, what should I do?
I call. It's this call that sticks in my mind as maybe a bad play.
The button raises, BB re-raises. BB player has shown to be a decent player. What should I do now?
I'll post later how it finished.
Thanks everyone,
Mike
Raise when the BB bets the turn. You might force out the button, which would be good. You also might get reraised by the button or the BB, in which case fold. If you plan to call to the river, it will cost you two bets anyway, assuming no raise (you hope). Therefore it is a better play to spend the two bets now and raise, and try to increase your chances of winning the pot. If you go into calling station mode it also gives the other two players a chance to get you caught in a raising war. Don't let them control the hand, do it yourself. Raise. If you get reraised you are almost always beat by either KQ or a flush, so you fold and know you were beat. If you don't feel comfortable raising on the turn when the BB bets, then why are you in the pot? Either way, take control of the hand and don't play like a wimp.
Dave in Cali
raising into two players one who has just come to life and bet a big bet into players who are known raisers seems like an incredibly stupid wreckless idea.
even if you did somehow win you would likely split the pot with another queen, this has to be taken into account, so now your raising with a fair chance that youll only get half the pot.. if the button is loose/aggresive as you say he is going to want to see the showdown no matter what. even still, another heart could fall on the river, and you dont have a one. this is low limit we're talking. youre not going to be able to get anyone off a hand with a board like that. when you take all these factors into account you shouldnt raise. the only reason for a raise here is for to build the pot if you have the nuts or near nuts. you have neither.
raising will do no good except make you look like a fish at the showdown. i think your call on the turn is safe cause you may be looking at a bb with a 7 or Q, or a four-flush draw or both, but everything else is trouble that will have you drawing dead and throwing away your money. once it's reraised back to you, you simply have to fold.
I ended up folding for the 2 bets, thinking the whole time if I had raised, getting to the river would probably only cost me 1 call, and I might have knocked out one of the other players. Was obviosly worried about the flush.
The button called the re-raise.
The river brought a blank. Both players checked and the BB showed T7o (not even a heart in there) and the button took down a nice pot with his Q.
I learned something from the button's raise.
I would have folded with three suited cards out there, with 2 raises I have to put one of them on the flush.
im wondering, what did you learn? how would you have played it differently? you were trapped out of position with a three flush on board. i guess if you played it now youd do it differently cause you know the way those two play, but at the time you played it the only reasonable way.
Trace the hand back to the start.
1. I would have raised with AQ in the cutoff despite the fact this will be a multiway pot.
2. On the flop, you have an open-end draw, but there is also a flush draw. Notice you do not have a heart. Your be correct. Also realize both KQ and 87 have you beat.
3. Most players when they hit on the turn will
check-raise. I think you should raise once and if re-raised throw the hand away.
Lets say UTG raises, and 4 more people call. The SB calls and its to you. Lets say you have K9o.
Now do you call? With 13-1 odds, I would call with K9o. I would dump K8o.
Do you call with QTo or Q9o? How about 78o? How about 96s?
they are all borderline but I suppose if it couldn't get raised again I would call with some of those hands. I would just be prepared to dump on the flop if I didn't flop good. And I would be especially careful with the kings and queens if I flopped top pair. either way, you are still pushing your luck calling raises with trash, so if you choose to do so I hope you are much better than your opponents at post flop play. I suspect that you still wouldn't lose much by folding most of those hands, even for 13:1.
A lot depends on your read of him but personally I pop him back when he raises. He could have a wide variety of hands. Likely holdings might include a straight (does he seem the type to call a raise from the blind with 6-8)two pair, jacks, 2nd pair on the board, or trip 5's. A re-raise I think more narowly defines your hands. If he caps it, you better slow down and even consider folding either her or depending on the river. If he calls, you may be ok...
What is the point of reraising? You are beat more than half the time at least.
I disagree. I think the most likely of a range of hands you face here are either trips or jacks with a weak kicker. Lesser likely hands might be a straight but your opponent would have to have called a raise with 6-8 before the flop. Two pair is possible also. The re-raise a) tells you where you are. if you get capped, you know you are likely a facing a better hand and you can either dump what you are holding or call and see what the river brings. b) a call from your opponent puts you back in control of the hand and could get a fold from a slightly stronger hand either here or on the river. Again i think it depends on what kind of read you have on your opponent what is best to do.
JV,
Don't know where you got the half figure. Assuming a solid player, the range of hands worth a pre-flop call of a raise on the button favors ones that lose to AA vs. ones that it beats. The raiser could have a set, but that is all to fear, really. Many players in a 3-6 game would play AJ, KJs, QQ and KK the same way. If you favor calling the raise and check calling the river, I say put your 2 big bets in now and see where you are. You can pretty confidently dump your Aces to a reraise here. More confidently that you can pay off a hand on the river.
KJS
There are two major errors here. First, why the heck are you assuming a solid player? It's 3-6! I wouldn't even necessarily assume a solid player at 20-40, let alone 3-6. Second, the problem with re-raising and folding to a 4-bet is that you may be mistakenly folding when you have a bunch of outs. If your opponent has some screwy 2 pair like 75 or 54, you have quite a few outs, and folding would be a mistake, especially since you've made the pot so large by putting in 3 bets on the turn while your opponent has put in 4.
It's not necessarily wrong to 3-bet, but in general I would only 3-bet here if I was prepared to call the 4-bet and call on the river. You could make a case for 3-betting and folding to a 4-bet *if and only if* your opponent would only 4-bet with a set or straight, but there are plenty of players who'd 4-bet with 2 pair, so you can't necessarily make a reliable laydown.
-Sean
The biggest mistake is the losers not asking for their money back with a deck with a couple of 3c's.
I suppose that might be a misprint.
Cazz
oops - that would be a 4c and 3h...txs. poor proof read. spitball
seems like we all would have either made alot more money or punished the k's for waiting til the river, but what strikes me as strange is how well DS's fundamental theory works here. how much more money would you have made or lost if you held their hands. it never suprises me when someone flops a set and never raises or bets it hard for fear a straight MIGHT be out there. i guess our graduation from low limit is realizing the spots where we can gain and where they can lose more. but im not gonna go anywhere just yet, the CASH is too good at these limits just my 15 cents
What a train wreck!
One of the basic axioms is if you have it, bet or raise as much as possible. Otherwise, pitch your hand in the muck.
Hi there...
2-4 at Paradise yesterday...
I've only been sitting for 20 minutes. As far as I can tell the table is a bit looser than your typical Paradise table. Raises are usually cold called by 4-5 players including the blinds. So I know some of the players are loose but I know nothing about the player involved in the next hand (except I think he played the hand very badly). He's not been to a showdown yet.
So I'm 4 off the BB in middle position. The other player (OP) is sitting on my right. He open-raises. I have K-T of clubs. Usually this goes in the muck. But seing that several players usually cold call a raise and that it's likely to get multiway I call. A very marginal call IMO.
Comments ?
I want comments on the call...and :
For completion sake, we saw the flop 5 handed and it came T-9-3 rainbow. He bets, I raise, everyone folds, he calls.
Turn is a T. He checks, I bet he calls.
River is another T.
He checks, I bet, he RAISES, I reraise he calls. duh I win.
He told me he had QQ.
I think he played it badly. he should have repopped it on the flop and bet the turn. Since I was the only opponent he had left. My assesment is that he flat called the flop to check raise me on the turn but got scared when a second T hit. I still think he sould have bet the turn and if I raise he can then safely fold. His raise on the river is just stupid. If he was afraid of the T on the turn his FH is no good on the river.
Comments ?
Thanks...
ThePrince
Nothing personal but I think your analysis of his play is completely wrong.
I like his play except I would have popped you back on the flop and led on the river (and make the crying call on your raise). He could have afraid of trip 9s or 10,9. The possibility of you having that other 10 on the river is now remote and his hand looks good.
I would never have called the pre-flop raise with K10s, even if I believed your analysis of the table. However, I am very conservative but it works for me.
I don't see any problem with your call pre-flop.
The main thing with that hand is to get rid of it quickly with a flop like that. You didn't and just flat out got lucky.
Am I missing something?
What is wrong with his post-flop play? He has KT and the flop is T9x rainbow.
Ken
I agree, CJC is on crack. Top pair - King kicker is good.
Well the KT was sOOted, so calling a raise is marginal because you may not get enough callers for your flush draw, and you may get 1 other guy who calls with ATo.
Now if there were 3 people in ahead of me, and it was only 2 bets to me, I call also. I figure I'm going to be folding if my flush doesn't hit, and if it does its Miller time. ;)
Preflop, I would probably be inclined to fold because your position is horrible (both relative to the field and relative to the preflop raiser; getting stuck in the middle is awful), dominating hands aren't going anywhere and might even 3-bet, and the rake at $2-4 requires fairly tight play preflop. If I had better position I might be inclined to play, particularly if my opponents played poorly postflop.
As far as your opponent's play is concerned, I would be inclined to 3-bet the flop. Leading the turn versus check-calling when the 2nd T hits are opponent dependent. If you are capable of tricky plays, I would be more inclined to check-call, but if you would only raise with a T, then I would bet and fold to a raise. The river check-raise is goofy. It's ok to bet out and call a raise because the third T makes it a lot less likely you have a T, but check-raising will generally cost more when beaten than it'll make when ahead.
-Sean
Playing 5/10 and it is a kill pot 10/20. The UTG raises to 20, the next player makes it 30, the others fold to me, and I am one off the button with two red Queens. I call (I feel I should have raised),the button fold and the SB and BB call, as does the UTG player. 5 player for 150.00
Flop is Js-7s-3c
It is checked to the 4th player, who bets 10, and I call (I feel that I should have raise to at least drop a few player). Only one player drops.
Turn is 2s
It is check around to me and I check (again I think I should have bet.)
River 5s
We all check. Would like to hear how badly I played this hand I have to learn from my mistakes. Thank and good luck.
Not one of the four of use had a spade and I won the pot with the queens. The UTG showed A-K. I feel that I played this hand so badly that I should have lost it but I sucked out.
f
Bet you were suprised, as I was, that I won. Every thing you said about my play of the hand was true and I know that, I could have made more on the hand. Thanks for the advise and I know that next time it will be Raise, Raise, Raise. Good luck and thanks/
You did miss a raise BTF but your biggest error in the hand was not raising on the flop with the overpair and a broken board. With a spade draw and overcards, make them pay.
You also should have bet the turn, then if you get raised reevaluate. I'm a little surprised no one took a shot on the river.
Sorry but I have to say: you play this hand like a little girl. You need to show a lot more aggression preflop and on the flop with your over pair. Good luck.
James, why be sorry for saying what is true. I realized my many mistakes after the hand and you are right I do have to be more willing to bet when I have a good hand.
IN 2-4 HOLD EM GAME I RAISE UTG W/ QQ--FOUR OF US SEE FLOP OF 9-2-K RAINBOW--I BET MIDDLE TWO FOLD & TOUGH OLD GAL RAISES--I RERAISE PUTTING HER ON KINGS HOPING SHE'LL THINK I HAVE A-K SHE CALLS TURN IS A BLANK-I BET SHE CALLS--RIVER ALSO A BLANK I CHECK SHE CALLS AND SHOWS ME POCKET NINES--DID I MISPLAY?
All I can say is this: RAISE RAISE RAISE!!!!!!
Well hell, it's me, that's not all I can say. So allow me to elaborate....
BTF you had to choose between calling or reraising. Had you reraised, you may have driven out the player who had the winning hand. Like some Magoo who drew out on you because he thought his piece of cheese was worth calling two bets cold but maybe not for three.. (I didn't read the results yet). Or you may have charged someone with yet another piece of cheezzze to see the flop. How many flop help you more than they help him? Probably not a bad time to get your $$ in the pot. Before the flop that is. with your big pocket pair. However, if your opponents are tight or rockish, and wouldn't three bet without at least rolled up kings, then perhaps you shouldn't cap it. Overall, with several opponents, you will usually make $$ by making the pot bigger BTF. Then of course some times you are beaten by KK or AA. Again, whether to reraise is probably more a function of your opponent's raising standards than the quality of your hand. After all, it IS a "type-1" hand, just ask feisty ol' Mason or his cohort, El Supremo. By the way I was thinking of nominating DS for Grand Poobah of the universe. Anyone Else agree?
OK, back to the subject. Next it's the flop and you have an OVERPAIR. There is a two flush on the board, plus a possible straight draw (albeit less likely if you had capped it). But whatever, this is not Sklansky territory here. You were afforded the opportunity to RAISE. Once again, you chose not to.
Then the turn comes and you give everyone a free card. With three spades on the board. Checked to you. What, me worry?
The reason hands like AA, KK QQ, AK, AQ, and those kinds of hands are so hard for people to play correctly is that they are worrysome. People don't like the idea of putting $$ into the pot when they might lose the pot. So they do things like not bother raising with their overpairs with a two flush and straight draw on board. Or not reraising BTF with their very good hands against fairly weak opposition. Or checking the turn.
When the river comes, You checked again. Probably the only good move you made the entire hand. Guess the previous three rounds had given you lots of practice doing that.
Bet you wished you woulda raised. what did you lose to? No let me guess. Ah2c? No wait, BLACK POCKET DUECES!!!!
Dave in Cali
tab the beginner needs some analysis please, please be as brutal as you feel fit. Being playing poker software today and I could do with some pointers with some of the hands I came into. I am trying to play against this software in an educated way, in that I am trying to learn why I do certain things and work out what my nasty "pixcel" opponents may be holding. I am waiting for Turbo so this is just a bit of shareware I got my hands on in the mean time. Pixcel player ratings are (Tight,M AND MOT (MANIAC (ON TILT )),Passive, Loose,A (AGGRESSIVE) or multiples there of i.e. TA.
Heres a three course meal for you to get you teeth into:-
~~~~~ starter ~~~~~ In the last three on the final table, I am ahead on chips 7000,5000,4500, progressive blinds now 100,200)
player 1 BBlind Player 2 Raise tab SBlind (kk) ReRaise 1+2 fold. I think I should have called here but I am forcing myself not to become too passive. I picked up 5 bets for this reraise and with this hand maybe I could have made more of it with only 3 players?. Don't know if it was right or not.
~~~~~ main course ~~~~~~ Won this as well and thought I played it well at first, now I am not so sure... Ten players. seat 5 (TAggressive) BB 7 (L) Raise Tab(seat 9) Call with AQ os 3 (M) call 5 call FLOP 986 rainbow 5 bet 7 fold tab raise 3 call 5 call turn brings another 8 5 check tab raise 3 fold 5 fold
won a big pot here and was bang on with my reading of the BB in seat5 (JT os) seat 3 had 5Q clubs, maniac rating as you can see.
~~~~~ desert ~~~~~
Losing hands, I am getting poor return with 6-7 all the time, maybe a row of unlucky flops (not one hit) but I have lost all faith in all low connectors now, I am not chasing them though and am folding immediately after the flop. However thanks to you all my faith is totally restored in AJ, I feel I am playing this well now.
tab
I appologise for how the posting above is laid out, the carriage returns are being nulled with the looks of it, how do I make a posting readable?
on the left side below Directory and Home is something called posting links. read it.
Carriage return is
Starter - there's nothing wrong with raising here. It's also alright to occasionally just call. One reason that just calling is not terrible is that raising out of the blinds tends to define your hand for you opponents.
Main Course - you were the maniac here. I think you got a little too frisky with just overcards and multiple opponents. In a real (low limit) game someone will show you a pair most of the time.
Desert - are we talking about 67s here?
You can get new lines (double spaced) by hitting enter twice, instead of once. If you want something single spaced and neater, you can use an html break tag "< br>" at the end of the line.
yes the desert , nay dessert was 6-7 5-6 , nightmare
You are going to throw away small suited connectors on the flop most of the time. You are looking for the occasional huge pot with them. Pre-flop wait until you are in late position and there are TONS of limpers in front of you. Then, generally, do not play on unless the flop hits you hard (two pair, straight draw, flush draw) and then carefully.
I just noticed that you are in the UK. I'm talking about limit poker here, just to be clear.
David
i HATE pocket pairs below TT. i usually just throw the little ones away without a second thought, but i nted to want to play 77-99. i need some solid help on these please.
i just played an online hand that will serve as a decent example. this was in a $5 tournament. all players still in. 15 to call. i had 88 6 off the button. one caller before me, i called, four players called behind including the sb and bb. so 6 of us see this flop:
2 T 3 rainbow
guy bets before me, i call (mistake?), am raised. guy before me calls, i call (this im pretty sure was a mistake).
turn come a Q i check and fold to his bet.
with two outs i always seem to lose with these hands. any advice?
Raise on the flop 100% of the time. With a flop that missed everyone's big cards and gave no one a decent draw, the first aggressor often takes the pot on the turn. I would think the first bettor's most likely hand is overcards. If someone plays back on the flop or turn, you can usually safely fold.
You might not love this raise, but if you don't raise you'll probably be raised by a hand you can beat, leaving you with the untenable choice of folding the likely best hand or spending 5 more bets on second-pair-with-no-draw. Failing to raise also dramatically increases the chances that you'll be outdrawn, so think of calling as the equivalent of devaluing your hand, as if you were turning it into sixes or fours.
The problem with raising on that flop is that a ten is such a popular card for a limper to have that I would think it's pretty likely the limper has a T or that someone else has a T.
You couldn't do much wrong by always folding pocket pairs in unraised pots when an overcard hits, because the pot is small enough that it can't be a huge mistake.
-Sean
I've got a slightly different take on the hand. I would fold 100% of the time. With 4 players behind you it is very likely that someone has a 10. The 10 is the most frequently appearing card in what most people consider playable hands.
I think that you'll have less trouble with the medium pairs if you play them as an either/or hand. Either you hit the flop (with a set, having an overpair, or a strong straight draw), or you fold the hand. This is especially true in a tournament. You do not have enough chips to be mucking around with an underpair on the flop.
You might consider entering the pot before the flop with a raise, but a raise on the flop with a rough flop like this with many players behind you would usually be an error.
Can't remember if it's Lou Krieger or Lee Jones (but I'm pretty sure it was one or the other) who said if the flop doesn't hit you and there's any appreciable action, fold and be done with it. This is especially true when you hold small to mid pocket pairs. You simply don't have anywhere to go with it. Get 'em next time.
My prefence is to defer to Ed in this matters so he may be right. But if so raising must be a close second to folding. T9 and JT typically don't like cold-calling here and if you get it head-up and follow up on the turn you're getting 2-1 for your action. I think you'd have to be pretty confident that the field doesn't consist of loose preflop callers and that the opener needs to be strong in order to justify folding.
As for the "fit-or-fold" advice: loose players that go too far with their hands would do better if they followed this advice and advanced to the "weak-tight" stage. But if they keep it up in short-handed pots against aggressive players they're going to get creamed.
I guess I should clarify my post a little. I'm not saying there wouldn't be situations where you would proceed to bet or raise with an underpair to the biggest card on the flop. But, I would usually do so when I felt that there was a strong possibility my opponents would fold, or that I had the best hand.
Here is the situation, I am wondering if I should have been more aggressive.
Im in late position, with a T-T, 5 people call, I call. Flop comes up 4,4,9 rainbow. I still have overhead pair. The BB bets 5, most see it, leaving the BB, another player and me. The turn comes up, another 10, I have full house. Somebody bets 10, and BB raises to 20, I reraise to 30, the first better drops, and the BB reraises to 40, I call. At this point, I am wondering if I should have kept going, seeing how he did bet on the flop, I was worried about the infamous 4 of a kind with 4's, he seemed very confident and couldn't put him on anything else. SO I called again on the river. Should I have been more aggressive, should I have ignored the four of a kind possiblity? He said after he would have kept going.
any comments would be appreciated.
Since there is only one hand that can beat you, raising on the river is a must. In fact, I would be willing to put in about 6 bets here. If a 4 should hit the river, then only raise once.
You also should have raised BTF with TT. When the board pairs, most players wait til the turn to raise. A raise on the flop would have been good, you want to charge the overcards to beat you.
First you should have raised preflop with your TT. You liely have the best hand here and you do not want the blinds to get a cheap shot at a freak two pair. On the flop when you have your overpair you should raise. If it's raised back to you just call. On the turn you should put at least 6 or 7 bets in before getting scared of monsters under the bed. If you're playing on Paradise maybe 5 bets. You should raise any bet on the river unless it's another 4.
Is it right to raise preflop, mid-position with a T-T, I know what the effect of the raise could be but I've heard from other sources that you wouldn't do this. Anyways, as it would have it, the guy only had another four, with trip fours. He told me after that he would have went all the way. That would have been good money, oh well, I still won. I couldn't rule out 4-fours so I was not prepared for it. Also I just started out and am building my bankroll, and I didn't want to be too risky. Well, thanks for the help.
Some of the reasons to raise with TT in midle postion:
1) You can buy the button
2) Eliminate the blinds
3) Get overcards to fold
4) Make everyone pay two bets to try and catch you.
He was in late position which is all the more reason to raise. Anyway, TT in the middle is a raising hand if no one raises in front of you. If there is a raise, a lot depends on who is raising. Against a rock you fold, against a lunatic 3-bet, against a solid or unknown player, tend to call. You are likely a small favorite to two overcards or a big dog versus JJ or better.
An argument could be made for raising before the flop with your Tens, but calling is a viable option as well. What calling does for you is allow you to get extra action on your full house later in the hand.
There are at least three reasons to put in an additional raise on the turn.
1) Four of a kind is just a plain unlikely occurance. 2) How many people would lead bet quads on the flop? 3) Because you didn't put in a raise before the flop, (a play that many people favor), your opponent will give you less credit for holding a full house, and will suspect that you are just "saying" that you don't think that he has a 4 with your first raise. This is because most people will believe that when they lead bet their trips they are doing something deceptive. Presumably, because many players will 'come alive' on the turn when they flop trips.
The player you describe is definitely more live than most opponents if he said that he would keep raising, and I get the feeling that he may have forced you to cease raising action before he backed off.
By the way, raising once on the river when a third 4 fell and your opponent led bet as suggested by another poster would be a mistake.
3/6 hold'em at Mohegan Sun. I recently sat down. I know several players, but not those involved in this hand. I'm in the BB with QTo. Several limpers to me and I check.
The flop is Txx offsuit. I bet my top pair, decent kicker and get two callers.
Turn is a Q. There are now two of a suit on board. I bet my top two pair. I am raised in one spot with everyone else folding, I re-raise and am called. It's heads-up.
River is a rag, but it's the same suit as the turn, so a flush is now possible. My opponent didn't seem to be on a flush draw, so I bet out. He called.
Comments? Results to follow.
David
He held pocket Q's for an overpair on the flop and top set on the turn. A couple of people expressed disbelief that I could have had the audacity to re-raise him with a mere two pair. :-0
It's not a bad beat story, though. I was beat from the beginning. The question is:
If you knew this player was quite passive and never ever raised pre-flop (and very rarely after), would this change how you played this hand?
David
I play this the same way, except for I check the River. I bet to get a better hand to fold or a weaker hand to call. I don't bet if there is a possible flush that is going to re-raise.
I see fish raising their 4 flushes all the time. When he raises the best hand I can put him on is QT ;) So when he doesn't cap it on the turn, I immediately put him on a flush draw.
I check the river.
David,
If I was heads-up with him the whole hand, it *might* change my play, but I am willing to be aggressive against a passive player and get beat sometimes, rather than always fear raising them because they play their great and good hands the same. That is bad strategy on their part, don't let it get in the way of your good, aggressive strategy.
I thought your raises were fine when I read the original post, because you did not state that someone in your game never semi-bluffs. In a lot of games, players raise on draws quite a bit and need to be reraised when they are drawing. Plus, he could just as easily had AA, KK, AQ, or other made hands you beat on the turn. Of course, it happened he didn't.
I even like your bet on the river, knowing he was not the type who would raise with only the draw or a pair/draw hand. When I read the post and did not know the type of player you were up against, I thought maybe you were facing AQ or even an overpair the board and were going to tell us you raked the pot. Even reading that this guy might have played AA the same way reaffirms that you played it right.
KJS
You are giving me too much credit. Everything I learned about this player I learned AFTER this hand. The way I played it was my generic play for this situation. And in that sense Poorboy might have a point about my river bet - I'll have to give that some thought.
It did turn out that I was probably the only player capable of semi-bluffing. But I wasn't going to do it much against these guys. This was definitely a "straightforward play takes the money" kind of a table.
David
I would not have played it any different from you.
Your opponent played his hand very poorly.
Without looking I'd say your opponent held QJ, KQ. I like the way you played it. No muss, nothing fancy.
I don't see how you can play it any differently. He would play AQ, AQs, AA, KK, KQs all the same way. There are 24 of those and only one way he can have QQ. Tough break.
that guy's a moron...u shoulda lost more money b/c he shoulda raised you you up the butt....heck , he shoulda raised preflop as well.
"Turn is a Q. There are now two of a suit on board. I bet my top two pair. I am raised in one spot with everyone else folding, I re-raise and am called. It's heads-up. "
your bet on the flop said u have top pair [unless there's a flush draw/straight draw and there wasn't, or unless ur an idiot, but ur not] so anyways, u say that u have top pair on the flop, so everyone calls. on the turn, you bet again, saying, i'm going to charge those backdoor draws, however, someone raises...they're saying that they have a queen, a pair better than ten.
so, okay then...u reraise [which any normal person would do, esp since he didn't raise pre flop] ur saying i can beat ur top pair...i have two pair...
unfortunately, that guy's a moron and doesn't reraise...maybe he's trying to be tricky so u lead on the river, who knows, but i'd cap if i were him...[so, that's one bet u save]
indeed, u bet out on the river, yet, he fails to raise u.
these are the times when u don't ask him 'why didn't u reraise me'
or something along the lines of reminding him he made a boo boo or tell him he had the nut hand b/c some ppl don't know if they have the nut hand or not...
as for those ppl giving u shit about playing agressively, well, they're morons too so ignore 'em...cuz any reasonable player would play the hand as u did when the monkie doesn't show any strentgh like that..
okay, i gotta get back to studying for finals, bye!
-jon.
as for those ppl giving u shit about playing agressively, well, they're morons too so ignore 'em.
Not to worry. I have no trouble whatsoever ignoring advice that I hear at the table. It's hard to remember, but I don't think I've ever heard one truly correct piece of advice given out that way. :-)
David
6/12. Lately I've decided to move up to 6/12 HE from 4/8 HE. I've only been playing poker a little over 1 year. And my stats are as follows (stats include collections and tokes):
4/8 single BB with $3 collection on button:
160.25 hours of play Mean = +1.70 SD = 106.17
But if I only look at my last month of play, it looks like this:
39 hours of play Mean = 22.18 SD = 74.62
6/12 single BB with $3.50 collection on button:
90.6 hours of play Mean = -20.20 SD = 115.48
And my last two session were both 8 hours. The first was -644 and the second was -385.
I think I'm an objective observer of my play and honestly I don't see where my play is "bad". In fact, on occasion I can see where I've made excellent decisions. One case where I hold pocket 9's in middle position. 6 players in for a single bet. Flop comes QT8 rainbow. It's one bet to me - I decide to peel one off which now I believe might have been a mistake because I didn't consider that if a nine comes, my hand is likely beat. The nine came and it was bet and raised to me. I folded. Someone else had caught the straight. Another situation was where I hold black 6's in early position. Again 6 players see the flop for one bet. The flop comes QT3 and it's checked around. The turn comes a 3. I check and the guy on my left bets. Everyone folds to me. I decided to call thinking this guy has nothing. The river comes a 5. I check intending to call a bet. He bets and I take down a tidy little pot when I call and show my 6's.
I think those were good decisions as I considered both the situations and the players I was up against. But then in regular play, it seems none of my draws are coming in. I get AKs twice in 3 hands - raise and get spanked! I flop flush draws and open-ended straight draws and they don't come in! Then I'm dealt K2s in early position and muck - I would have made the flush and pulled down a $300 pot. Then I'm dealt T5s on the button and muck it. The same thing happens.
To be honest, in an 8 hour session, I made some bad decisions, but I don't think in total I cost myself more than $50 in decisions that were clearly bad - you know - an overcall here or a call without correct pot odds to justify there.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
-Michael
Lately I've decided to move up to 6/12 HE from 4/8 HE. I've only been playing poker a little over 1 year. And my stats are as follows (stats include collections and tokes):
4/8 single BB with $3 collection on button:
160.25 hours of play Mean = +1.70 SD = 106.17
But if I only look at my last month of play, it looks like this:
39 hours of play Mean = 22.18 SD = 74.62
6/12 single BB with $3.50 collection on button:
90.6 hours of play Mean = -20.20 SD = 115.48
And my last two session were both 8 hours. The first was -644 and the second was -385.
I think I'm an objective observer of my play and honestly I don't see where my play is "bad". In fact, on occasion I can see where I've made excellent decisions. One case where I hold pocket 9's in middle position. 6 players in for a single bet. Flop comes QT8 rainbow. It's one bet to me - I decide to peel one off which now I believe might have been a mistake because I didn't consider that if a nine comes, my hand is likely beat. The nine came and it was bet and raised to me. I folded. Someone else had caught the straight. Another situation was where I hold black 6's in early position. Again 6 players see the flop for one bet. The flop comes QT3 and it's checked around. The turn comes a 3. I check and the guy on my left bets. Everyone folds to me. I decided to call thinking this guy has nothing. The river comes a 5. I check intending to call a bet. He bets and I take down a tidy little pot when I call and show my 6's.
I think those were good decisions as I considered both the situations and the players I was up against. But then in regular play, it seems none of my draws are coming in. I get AKs twice in 3 hands - raise and get spanked! I flop flush draws and open-ended straight draws and they don't come in! Then I'm dealt K2s in early position and muck - I would have made the flush and pulled down a $300 pot. Then I'm dealt T5s on the button and muck it. The same thing happens.
To be honest, in an 8 hour session, I made some bad decisions, but I don't think in total I cost myself more than $50 in decisions that were clearly bad - you know - an overcall here or a call without correct pot odds to justify there.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
-Michael
I'm a little fuzzy as to how to interpret your results, but I will comment on the two hands you played.
In the first case, with the 9's, your call on the flop is probably not a good idea. None of the cards that help your hand are very good for you. Then, when you hit your set, you are getting at least 4.5:1 from the pot, where you will probably win if you fill. I would call here.
In the second case, with your 6's, you make a shrewd read that your opponent is bluffing here. The problem with just calling his bet is that there are a lot of cards that will beat you. I would try to take the pot right there with a raise by giving him a chance to fold. It will be very difficult for him to bet the river behind you even if he does catch an overcard (to your 6's) because you have represented trips. Notice that if one of the cards that could complete a straight falls on the river, you can still safely check because you are representing that you are afraid of a straight. If he bets, you don't have to call.
Two bad sessions isn't really an indicator of much. You may be feeling a little additional pressure because you are playing for more money that you are accustomed. I would only be slightly concerned because of the size of the losses. These are large losses (although not unduely so) for a 6-12 game. You may want to tighten up a little until you become comfortable with the size of the game. In other words, in early position, you may not want to play hands as weak as pocket 6's unless the game is passive before the flop.
As alluded to in the other post, two sessions is not an accurate indicator of results. Consider a world-class player who sits down in the same game and receives the same cards (assuming he is able to play seriously at this level). He would probably save a bet here and there, perhaps saving $200-300 each session through perfect play. Perfect play, of course, is unattainable, and this world-class player probably could not save that much even with perfect play, but just for illustration, assume this is so.
Now, between the last two sessions, this expert is down "only" $500 compared to your $1000. And this is assuming perfect play! With so few hours logged, it is impossible to compute an accurate win rate. One reason for this is that you will only participate in a handful of hands that really have a significant impact on your bankroll. For an eight hour session, you may only see five or six hands that have this sort of impact (often fewer!). Now, imagine that you will win 50% of these five hands (gross exaggeration!). Your probability for losing ALL FIVE HANDS is 3.25%. So one of 33 times, you will may be a BIG LOSER. And that's using an unreasonable win rate!
Hi all...
Comments on the following hand:
5-10 HE. Full table. I'm in the SB with black qweens.
The table is fairly loose. 2 solid players.
4 limpers to the button who raises. I don't know this player, he has sat down not too long ago.
I opted to flat call since it was unlikely that all the limpers would fold to a reraise and I was out of position. (mistake?)
Flop came J 8 4 all hearts.
I went for a check raise hoping the bet would come from the button so I could get everyone to cold call two bets. I felt that if I bet out and got raised by the button, I could not know if he raised cause he beat me (AA-KK)or if he had a singleton heart or worse 2 hearts.
Everyone checked to the button, I raised, very loose LOL calls. all fold and button calls.
Turn is the 3 of clubs. I bet, LOL calls, button folds. I would have folded if he had raised. (right?)
River is the qween of hearts. Damn...
I check, LOL checks and flips 8-9 off with the 9 being of hearts. She takes the pot.
Any mistake ??
Thanks...
ThePrince
You can't fold to a raise by the button on the turn, as he may be making a play. Otherwise, there was nothing else you could do...
If I miss the flop, but no card bigger than Q, I'll play for 2 bets. If the flop is suited and 4 players remain, I'll toss it.
I think you should have re-raised pre-flop. Even in Low Limit, some of them will dump facing another 2 bets, and the prospects of facing a cap. You would have looked like a star had granny bailed out on her 98o. When you limp in with QQ, I think you played OK from then on, but IMO your big mistake was not trying to punish the limpers when you had the best hand.
Since the raiser is on the button and you are in the small blind with your queens, I would think the best thing to do would be to wait until the flop to show any strength. This disguises your hand and you can wait to see if a K or A falls before committing fully to the pot.
In this game, I made the assumption that no one will fold for a reraise after already donating their five dollars. If a K or A falls on the flop, probably give up against this large field; if you have an overpair, a checkraise on the flop would possibly eliminate a good portion of the field. Or you could try to wait until the turn and checkraise with a bigger bet, getting more players out. This last strategy, while more risky, would possibly result in a long-term gain (but with larger fluctuations), as a lot of players would stay in with little chance of winning.
This is almost the exact same thing that happened to me, look at the 12/11/00 response "super draw" fortunate for me the queens ended up making a full house
I hold ATo in the BB...5 limpers, and I check.
Flop: A J 3 rainbow
I bet out with top pair, one caller, then I'm raised by a player in middle position (MP). Everyone else folds, I call the raise, the other player calls the raise as well. Three players.
At this point, I had a feeling I was outkicked, but I couldn't bring myself to fold to that raise, despite the fact that MP was a relatively tight player.
Turn: J
I check, MP bets. Should I fold here? I called, and called again on the river after a rag hit.
Results to follow.
NotQuiteDead
MP turned over AK to take the pot. I had feared I was outkicked when he raised on the flop, and it turned out I was right. Then, when the Jack paired on the turn, I lost 3 outs, and it seems I was drawing completely dead.
I'm pretty sure I should have folded on the turn, but I'm curious to hear what others think.
NotQuiteDead
Holdem experience teaches you, among other things, which hands are trouble. A-10 is one of those. If you were confident of your tight read on the player, i think i would have laid it down.
middle player with ak was dumb not to raise preflop.
you shouldve have folded after he raised you on the flop since you had a read on him as tight.
oh well, no biggie really.
I'm UTG in a typical game and catch QQ. I've been playing a decent and tight game, am way ahead with raises being respected. I raise and get one caller. This player is one of the better players and has to have a pair to call my raise but its not AA-QQ or he would reraise. I discount AK-AJ. I figure he's got 88-JJ. He's aggressive enough but I'm afraid I will to loose him to overcards.
Flop comes Q73 rainbow. I check, he bets. I call. I've represented AK here. Should I have check raised ? I know to play a set fast, but I want to get paid and this guy is seems to respect my play. $22 pot.
Turn is 10, I check again, to my surprise he checks as well. Getting more respect than I want here ! Check raise plan foiled ! Should I have bet even if I loose him ?
Now the river is a J, rainbow. I know he's worried about AK but I can't let him check it down. He calls.
Results next post.
Would you have played this any different, hoping for some action or is a slow play alright in this situation knowing your 1 opponent won't be drawing ?
He had JJ !
Greetings to everyone.
Played my first session of Holdem last Friday, after reading, studying and practicing for about two months. Game was 1-2-4-8? (least, I think that was how they described it). Anyway, it was 1-2 blinds and spread bets of 1-4 and 4-8. I'm sure you all know what I'm trying to describe in a very awkward way.
Played for 6 1/2 hours without even a bathroom break. Bought in for $100 then $50, made it back at the end and ended up winning $28. Next night, played 4-8 game for 4 hours straight and lost $70 from a $100 buy-in. Last night (Sun) played a different 4-8 game for another 4 hours straight and lost $80 from a $100 buy-in.
I made some big time mistakes the first night, and played better the next two nights. But these were at local casinos and there were some real tight and good players. And I could not catch a hand. For instance, Sat. night I had 3 hands of pocket kings, bet agressively pre flop and after the flop, and lost every one of them. Last night, I had pocket aces, and lost that hand also.
Questions:
1. I am a blackjack player at $10 unit level, and am used to some big fluctuations at this level. A $500 loss in a one hour session is not unusual. My question is, were my losses typical? I know it depends greatly on the ability of the player, but what would be the higher loss amounts for a moderately good player in a 4-8 game?
2. I saw some really loose playing. One lady won two big pots holding 2,3 and 2,4 both unsuited. Last night, my end of the table had the tight players and we were all losing. The far end had the loose players and they were piling up the chips. I saw numerous hands such as 10,5 or J,2 win. Is there any situation when you would see the flop with these kind of hands? Is this kind of play typical? Or am I playing too conservative by playing by the book? The book in this case is Lee Jones' "Winning Low Limit Hold'em".
Thanks for your answers.
Papio
Is there any situation when you would see the flop with these kind of hands? Is this kind of play typical? Or am I playing too conservative by playing by the book?
No (except for a free play in the big blind). Yes. No.
Your losses would not be atypical for either a winning or a losing player.
Remember that it's very important in spread-limit to try to see the flop cheaply with mediocre drawing hands and to charge the maximum when you have very strong cards that don't want a multi-way pot. As I recall, Lee Jones has a decent discussion of this.
Other than that, straight-forward tight aggressive play should be a winner in this game.
David
Welcome to the game--
I think the game you're trying to describe is 1-4-8-8.
My first advise to you would be to scrap the pre-flop advice in the Jones book. You might be able to become a small winner in a fixed limit game using his pre-flop strategies, but you'll be sunk in no time in a spread limit game. I don't care if you're Johnny Chan, you'll never show a profit in HE if you only raise with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT AK and AQs, and take off flops for two bets cold with QTo. That type of play will send you right to the poorhouse.
If you really want to read the seminal HE text pick up Sklansky's "Hold 'Em Poker"; it is, IMO, the best book ever written on the game. If you want to tweak the starting hand requirements contained within I'd slightly de-value suited connectors, as IMExperience you need to be in later position and have more calllers in front of you to play these hands than what Sklansky recommends.
You're fluctuations are totally normal-- I wouldn't even think about that. I once lost 880$ in a spread limit 3-5 game, so I can assure you you haven't bottomed out.. :)
It sounds like you're playing fine, and the odds just didn't hang with you. If you keep playing tight agressive, I think you'll do great!
In a fairly loose-passive 4-8 game (averaging 5-6 players per flop), I raise UTG with two red jacks. After four players call behind me, the BB reraises. The BB is one of the better and more tricky players. Though I think there still is a good chance that I have the best hand, I just call and see the flop with 5 opponents and 18 small bets in the pot. Should I have reraised (capping the betting)?
The flop comes Ks-9c-7s and the BB checks. I also check, hoping for a free card but planning to call one small bet. Would you have bet? If so, how many raises would you have called?
Surprise, surprise, I got my free card: a red four. Now, the BB bets into me. I don't like calling here and ponder whether to raise or fold. What would you do?
I'll post the outcome later.
With that many callers after the flop I would check call on the turn about 30% of the time and fold about 70% of the time. The reason I would fold is there are 4 people to act behind you who may have a weak king. Also BB may have been going for a check raise.
Derrick
I think you misread the post. Check-calling the turn was not an option because the BB bet into me.
So on the turn I would fold 70% of the time and call 30% of the time. I still feel there are too many people left to act who may be waiting for a raise on expensive street to call this too often. You may have BB beat, but you still have half the table to deal with.
Derrick
Well presented hand, posing three interesting decisions. I'm short on time so I'll just comment on the first. I would favor capping the betting preflop for several reasons: 1) Maximizing the value of your hand. I agree that there is a good chance you have the best hand (and the loose cold-callers will surely call two more bets). 2) Deception. When you capp it, opponents will suspect AA, KK, QQ or AK(s) if you have a reasonably tight image. 3) Position/Initiative. By capping the pot, you seize the initiative and place yourself in a better position to control the post-flop action. The BB will be more likely to check to you, increasing your chance of a free card with a bad flop, or maximizing the pot with a favorable flop (by betting, being raised, and then reraising or smooth-calling to raise on the turn).
MJS
I have a bit more time now, so here's my thoughts on your flop and turn decisions. I agree with your plan to check and call one bet on the flop, though I would also consider check-raising if the first bet came from late position (forcing the intervening players to fold or cold-call two bets).
On the turn, I would fold due to the likelihood that you have 2, 1, or 0 outs. It sucks to be drawing dead!
MJS
Thanks for the feedback. I wish I had folded on the turn as both of you advised. Instead, I raised. One player cold-called behind me, and the BB reraised. I now folded, convinced that I had either one or zero outs. I felt sick when the jack of clubs fell on the river...until the BB bet out and got raised by his lone opponent who won the pot with 8T. The BB had 99.
3-6 game. The game is very loose and not terribly aggressive, but a couple players do raise now and then. I am probably the most aggressive player at the table.
I am dealt AhKs in the BB. UTG posts a live straddle. Four call the straddle. SB calls. It is unlikely that any amount of raising will make anyone fold, plus the straddler might reraise again anyway, so I just call. UTG calls as does everyone else.
Flop comes Kc 6c 7h. SB bets and I raise, thereby scaring several players INTO the pot. We see the turn 5 handed.
Turn comes the 3c. Not the card I really wanted to see. SB checks.
This situation arises often. You have a good hand like top pair, and you are in early position, and a flush or straight card comes on the turn. I believe the move here is to bet, which is what I did. Many would be afraid of the flush or straight, and so they would check. But here's the thing: are you just going to check-call? Check-fold? I don't think so. And check-calling is WIMPY. If you are going to call you might as well bet. If you get raised, you can probably safely fold. But why let anyone have a free card? SUICIDAL.
No, betting is not suicidal, NOT betting is suicidal. After all, you did raise the flop. It is quite likely that no one has a hand that is better than yours, and since you raised on the flop, it is unlikely that anyone is going to bet into you either. And they all have outs against you. Anyone with a four or five just picked up a gutshot straight draw. Anyone with a single club just picked up a flush draw. Anyone with a pair has outs against you. Even some magoo who played red pocket dueces this far STILL has two outs against you. The flush is not necessarily made every time a third of a suit hits the board, nor is the straight made either.
So I bet and two players called.
River was the 2s. I bet and they both called. One showed down pocket nines and the other has K5o (SB).
Comments welcome.
Dave in Cali
I agree with your turn bet. Can't always be looking for snipers behind every tree. If you get raised by a predictable player who wouldn't raise you without a good made flush, you can safely dump it. If you get raised by a trickier player who might have something like Kcx, then you will have to make a decision. Some of those will be wrong, but that's poker. What IS weak, IMO, is automatically checking any time a possible straight or flush hits the board.
I see it day in and day out with the LL crowd. Everyone gets their share of good hands, but it is truly astounding some times how much extra cash some of these players leave on the table because they do not bet/raise/checkraise appropriatley because they do not have the absolute nuts.
3 players coldcalled your flop raise. Even in low-limit this should mean something. In this situation, I would estimate that over 85% of the time one of the coldcallers caught the dreaded flush, particularly with such a lacklustre flop. You got the result you wanted on this hand, but I think the decision to bet here is anything but automatic.
Mark
I believe your response will be mostly in the minority here, but thanks for the reply.
You do make a good point regarding the fact that several people cold called my raise. However, this is 3-6, a game where that doesn't generally mean the same thing as it would in 30-60. If a very good player had called my raise, I might give him more credit for having a possible flush. However, I will still bet into him on the turn. If he calls again and no 4th flush card comes, perhaps I will check-call the river. In fact, check-calling the river might be a good play also if I have not improved by the river, depending on the opponents.
But in the end I will still bet the turn 95% of the time. It will be interesting to see some more opinions on this.
Dave in Cali
I think betting the river was a little risky but otherwise you played it perfectly, including pre-flop. The turn bet is absolutely a must, especially in this type of game.
natedogg
Betting the turn is the thing to do, fer sher. The river bet, not as sure, sounds right to me, too, simply because it's a clearer decision when you see what the action is like. It's LL, no-tricks poker. Bet it out.
I, too, would lean toward betting. However, how often do you see three people cold call 2 bets and have another bettor as well, without a single one of them having the flush draw? Very rare in my experience.
I am an aggressive player and would bet unless I knew someone had it, but it seems close enough to a 0 ev play that I'm not going to get up on a soapbox.
Eric
Sitting in behind my 'student' on Friday evening, waiting for a seat to open. This guy is a real rock, but IMO, he has become away too tight for the 3-6 calling station type of game he sits it literally every day. He will fold AKo to one raise. I keep telling him he should be looking for value oppotunities to mix it up with these opponents, and rely on his play technique and hand reading skills to stay out of serious trouble post-flop. His game has regressed to the point that when he does enter the action, he has become so predictable that even the most casually observant opponents run for cover. Result - wins small pots when he does get cards, and loses the same as the rest of us when the deck doesn't hit him.
Anyway, on this particular hand, my buddy is in BB with Tc-8c. Four early limpers, raise in middle position from a loose player who generally enters far too many hands, but who will raise with a mixture of true quality hands like premium pairs, and medium crap like KJ, too. One cold caller, SB folds, and my student mucks. The flop and subsequent play is irrelevant.
I told him later when he stepped away from the table for a break that IMO a call with T8s in a big multi-way pot for another half bet was MANDATORY. The chance for a limp re-raise from the early callers was very minimal. He could count on getting 13:1 on his extra $3, and this is a call I would make every time with this holding. Am I the one off-base here? If I get flamed, I will have a big apology to make, but feel free to state your opinions.
If I am *very* sure that no one will raise, I would put the extra bet in to see the flop with T8s.
I'm not sure I would do it 'every time', but the situation you mention seems to call for it.
However, doing this can lead to pretty big swings. You get a great pot if your hand hits, but it can be expensive if you flop your flush draw or open ender and the prefop raiser or another player decides he is going to make you pay to draw. It's even more spendy if everyone is calling every hand to river, the flush draw hits and some goofball turns over Q2s.
Good points, Dan, but you can't make an omelette without breaking the odd egg.
No question this would be a higher variance play. You will occasionally burn up some chips chasing or someone will show you the bigger flush, but my point to my buddy, is that he plays SUCH a low variance game, that he has to get into this type of situation once in a while to keep 'em guessing at least a little bit. You're right, you don't want to do much of anything in HE ALL the time, but he is just so risk averse for 3-6, it's sickening some times.
He just WILL not get involved unless it's leading the pack with Group 1 & 2 hands. Not necessarily a terrible point of view, but the point I've been trying to make to him is that there ARE +EV opportunities that crop up during a sit, and he should be more alert to them.
If there's one thing I would do every time at a HE table it's call with T8s when I'm getting 13:1. It's a much a no brainer as the game offers, when you consider you've got roughly a 14% chance of flopping either at least two pair or at least an eight outer. That, pure and simple, is easy money.
In many yrs around low limit poker I don't recall seeing many players this tight very successful. In the small towns that I play tight players are not very welcome and can cause a game to break. I get accused of being tight in my local game but I know I play way to many. A 10% rake is typical in 3-6, and I don't know what you can expect to win if you keep the pots very small. My advice to your friend would be if he wants to be selective with what he enters the pot with at least be aggressive, that means 3 betting with AK. Aggression does mask tightness.
I agree.
As I said, I would make the call in the situation you describe.
How could anybody dig themselves into a deep hole by calling with this had preflop? If you're not willing to call in the situation described, you shouldn't be willing to ever play any speculative hand, including Axs or suited connectors or small pairs. Then try finding someone to pay you off. As soon as you do, the rest of the table will happily set them straight. At which point I suppose you could angrily berate them about your low variance.
the 3-6 games i play usually involve super loose idiots and one dumbass maniac, hence, i play tight as a rock.
i'll go through hand after hand after every fricking hand waiting for a group one hand to call/raise/reraise with.
if flop hits me, i stay in [if ace or king hits my ak] if i got that high pocket pair, i'll pump that pot full of raises cuz i know those monkies don't have squat. they just don't.
okay, ocassionally some monkie will hit that river, but that's besides the point, and hey, that's poker.
at any rate, i've gotten so accustomed to playing group one hands that when the game does die down, or i enter a regular not to tight/loose game before i find my super loose game, i instictively only call with group one hands even when i have the pot odds to make a correct call from late position or the blind.
i dunno, it's just me cuz i'm so used to it, and maybe that's why he's so used to playing tight.
[though i wouldn't fold ak off to a raise, i'd reraise]
anyways, i've gotten so tight that a couple regulars [only the ppl that i talk to b/c hey, i'm a kid, it's kinda lonely in there not talking to anyone, more specifically the other filipino ppl cuz i make fun of them how they always try to bluff cuz it's a filipino thing to lie/bluff/etc] keep on criticizing me about my tightness. they tell me it's not the way to win. but heck, i know that i take their in the end cuz i do.
so, to ur friend, keep playing tight in those super loose games, but loosen up in tight games and play suited/one gappers/connected in five or more ppl pots.
a good site is www.fekali.com on playing w/ dumbshits, err, fish.
okay, later.
-jon
I think your "student" needs to take up a new hobby. Of course you are correct in calling for the extra $3. You were kidding about his/her folding AKo for one raise, right?
Your student needs to open up. Folding AK for a single raise is not going to cut it at any level.
The hand you described is worth a call in limit get caught if the flop is a tweener like second pair and a backdoor straight draw. But, he has to overcome this in order to win.
Somehow, the post on this topic got messed up. Let's try again.
1. You might want to remind your student that 72 is a 6-1 dog to AA. If he is getting 6-1 to play a hand, he needs to take it.
2. Needs to 3 bet AK if his opponents see him as tight. Folding is out of the question.
3. Play more hands in the last 2 seats. He does not have to raise with marginal hands, but he does need to play pairs and connectors in the back.
4. It looks like your student is a slave to starting hand charts. This could take some time to break away from. He has to see that hand charts are only a guide.
That's the strangest thing I've heard of-- a hold 'em player who has to be persuaded to play MORE hands. Hell, I still play too many, and I'm one of the tightest players I've ever seen. In the hand you describe calling would be, IMO, an absolute no brainer. I don't think I'd even hesitate. Even with four callers (and maybe three, it's hard to tell) I have to think I'd be in there.
Not only should he call from the BB with T8s, I would be tempted to LIMP with that in late postion. (as long as I was getting odds.)
Actually a higher EV and much higher variance play would be to re-raise. (People will think he's a maniac!)
Per HPFAP, UTG if you fear no raises from the fish, and expect zillion way action, limp with Axs, J9s and anything better.
Folding AKo in large multiway pots is probably not too bad, EXCEPT you say people respect his raises, so he should be reraising if he can get heads-up or 3-handed.
I actually win more with KQo and QJo in MULTIWAY pots because it is possible to flop an open-ender. AK just can't win without improving, and even then it is marginal. The same goes with poket pairs, even AA, KK, QQ, unless you make a set, they won't make you nearly the money they should if the pot is 47 handed.
The way you make your money is with the suited cards he's been folding.
With weak players in the game, it is an easy call. I didn't read the post to carefully but you said you had 13-1 pot odds? That's plenty. you are 22-1 to flop trips or two pair, not counting flush and straight draws. Also, the implied odds are huge.
I would like to change the question here. It is obvious to call. But what is the best flop here in your opinions-a flop with 8-8-x, 10-10-x, or 10-8-x? I am curious as I finished second in a satellite losing with 10-8 to one of these flops. I wont say which, although I will say it was a no-limit tournament. Curious to see what you all think.
Result - wins small pots when he does get cards, and loses the same as the rest of us when the deck doesn't hit him.
If he plays like you say, when the deck doesn't hit him, he is no doubt losing much more than the rest of us because it sounds as if he doesn't semi-bluff and make otherwise less than obvious calls and raises properly.
Your advice is correct. Stick with him.
= Raider
2-4 HOLD EM--I'M A TIGHT AGGRESSIVE PLAYER RAISE PREFLOP W/ QQ--4 SEE FLOP OF K-9-2 RAINBOW I BET (MIDDLE POS) NEXT 2 CALL AND A TOUGH OLD LADY RAISES--I RERAISE REPRESENTING AA OR KK (I THINK SHE'S GOT A PAIR OF K'S ) MIDDLE 2 FOLD-SHE CALLS-TURN IS A BLANK -I BET SHE CALLS--I CHECK RIVER--SO DOES SHE & SHOWS ME POCKET 9'S FOR THE SET--SHOULD I HAVE FOLDED RAISE ON FLOP?? I DIDN'T FIGURE HER FOR KK AS SHE WOULD HAVE RAISED PREFLOP (SHE WOULD) THANKS FOR THE GREAT IDEAS
You should not use all caps.
I'm not sure how much I've lost trying to run little old ladies off a hand. If you raise and they call, YOU better have the goods. If she raises after, aim for the muck unless youv'e got the mortal nuts. She's not going anywhere. The older the person the less likely they are bluffing. Save some money next time.
It is harder to read text that is all in caps. Most people won't even take the time to read it.
You are playing in the wrong game. There is no way you are going to "represent" AA or KK and win the pot without it. You represented KK to the little old lady who had a SET, and she believed you enough to back down and then you lost.
You say you didn't figure her for KK before the flop but what about K5o or KJ or any other king that still beats your hand? This is low limit hold'em man. she had you beat and you knew it and you tried to win the pot anyway. That is the worst play you can make in low limit.
Don't represent the nuts to a hand that you know is at least top pair in LL hold'em. Usually, you can't even represent top pair successfully to any other pair. You KNEW she had a K at least if not two pair. Bad move. Wait til you are a against a pro before you make a move like that.
natedogg
It might be "INCONCEIVABLE" that you are beat, but when you raised preflop, then bet the flop, then got raised, I would give the old lady credit for at least having a king and FOLD your two outer.
Dave in Cali
You probably should fold on the flop. If you make a loose call here, then definitely muck on the turn when you don't improve.
When you get raised on the flop by an LOL (Little Old Lady) after you raised pre-flop and then lead into 3 other players on the flop, you should fold. You are playing two outs at best since the LOL will almost always have at least a King and she will not release. With just a King, she will usually just check and call to the river and make you show her a better hand.
If you didn't flop a set with your queens. I would have gotten out of there right away. If you claim to be tight you would have mucked it. I would have guessed the Tough Old Bird to be holding a King with any sort of combo and if she's calling your bets, than you must know that she's got something better than your pocket queens.
If you had been watching closely and paying attention at the table before this hand came up, you would have known exactly what to do.
I don't want to stereotype or generalize here, but nearly all old ladies at low limit tables aren't all that aggressive. Sure some are calling stations and will call a lot, but many won't bet less than top pair on the flop. For an old lady to RAISE you, she must have AT LEAST a king with a big kicker.
You can tell if she is this type by watching her in other hands. Of course, if this is the first hand she's played in an hour, run - she has AA AK or KK for sure.
I once had both black aces in mid position. Old lady in BB calls my preflop raise as well as 2 others.
Flop comes K 8 2 rainbow. There is no draw on this board PERIOD.
She bets. I raise. late position calls both cold (AK). She 3 bets it! I MUCKED. Yep, thats right - mucked AA on the flop for one more small bet. Why? Because I *KNEW* she had a set and I was not about to draw for my 2 outter.
Sure enough she had a set of 8's.
I was 100% sure she had a set because I had been watching her play for 3 hours. She would not 3 bet top 2 pair because she would be afraid of a set being out there.
In the hand you describe, there is no hand that she could possibly have that you can beat.
Hercules
You know she is tough, you said that in your post. I think you did the right thing betting out after the flop but as soon as you got raised you know you're beat. The only reason I agree with the bet is if she just calls you probably bought yourself a free card on the turn, of course with her set that could get you in a lot more trouble but we don't know what she's holding. You went too far.
What is the proper name of the book everybody refers to as HEFAP new version or HPFAP.
I need the full name and trust the pros in the forum will recommend the best thank you.
Hold 'em Poker/For Advanced Players/21st century edition.
8-handed 3-6 game on Paradise, moderately loose. Utg limps, next guy limps, one fold, I call next to cutoff with KsQd, cutoff checks his late position blind, button calls, blinds call, 7 players see a flop of Th Tc Kd.
Checked to me, I bet, cutoff folds, button calls, sb calls, bb folds and the two early limpers call. (I don't know any of these guys, and in about half an hour this is the first big multiway pot I've seen). 12 small bets in the pot, 5-way now.
The turn is the 5s. It's checked to me again. For those of you that don't play these games, it is not uncommon for someone to wait with an open set until the river. Wondering what else they could have and sensing a trap, I check.
The button bets, sb calls, utg limper folds, second limper calls, I call. Down to 4 of us with $57 in the pot.
The river is the Qc, giving me top two with a board of TTK5Q, no flush possible. Small blind checks, early limper bets out. These 5th street "bet-outs" with a scary board are often if not typically nothing in these games, but AJ or J9 looks like a real possibility. I'm looking at 10.5-1 with the turn bettor and the small blind on my left. Would anybody fold here?
At this point you have to call but I think things might have gone easier for you if you just bet the turn when checked to. If you get raised you can probably fold and you might get some players to fold rather than pay a double bet to go for a gutshot.
Not a chance in hell do I fold the river for one bet. I hope you were kidding.
I think the choice here is between calling and raising. utg show you a QJo? I have to agree with Jim, I would bet the turn. Do you always call pre-flop in that situation, or do you often raise?
Thanks for all comments.
Spitball: I usually raise early limpers with KQ.
I have no idea why I screwed up this hand other than brain lock. Of course you should bet the turn here: several callers in a low limit game is thin evidence of trips.
On the river, I must have been trying to rationalize not betting the turn because I mucked, coinvinced I was looking at a straight. The bettor had 4c4s, and the button took the pot with Kh3h.
when I run bad in a low-limit game, often I can trace my troubles back to playing too passive, especially pre-flop. we play tight because we know this gives us a long-term advantage. when we don't press our advantage, by charging the fish to call our better hands, we give away one our most important edges. good luck, spitball
Chris,
This is a great problem, and I think you should post it to the Internet Poker forum too. Here is why:
In low limit games online, especially where many people are seeing the flop, you can be easily crushed by calling or raising the turn and river -- i.e. whether aggresive or not -- when you are in bad shape and should have folded, especially on the turn where the players 'tell you' what they have.
Throwing away your cards against *most* players, especially with scare cards -- when 5-6 people took the flop is essential. There are so many people drawing dead it isn't funny: You want to be one of the people who cause them to draw dead, not one of the deadies.
I am playing an online strategy which is pretty simple, but which has helped me a lot: It has a lot to do with simply not paying off the turn when so many have taken the flop and are still there; when I have 2nd pair or really weak kicker, or some other problem hand or when it feels wrong. These cases, where you might be 2nd best, but something that helps you also helps 1-2 others more, are common there. And bluffing is done only by truly horrible players against 3 others (I think your example shows this?) so why stay around to find that the bluffer didn't beat you but the other guy who stayed does and would never fold. I can think of 5-6 hands from one 2 hour session where I folded correctly (or didn't follow my own advice and lost). And 5-6 where people chased me with NO outs.
Against one other player, well, it is harder: Much harder. But if 5-6 took the flop, certain flops are death unless you are way ahead.
There is a GREAT post in the Medium Stakes by Jim Brier 20-40 Problem of Dec 5th -- it is a case of QJx on the flop where the hero has a KQ. It is not exactly like a small stakes online (only 2 players take the flop), but it does pose the same question: What to do on the turn? Many experts say you have to play on. Dave from Cali guessed exactly what hand the raiser on the turn had (QJ) and suggested bailing I believe. In the online low stakes equivalent: More people would have stayed, and with KQo and people hopping out of their seats to re-pop it, I would probably fold this baby since 3 other players probably have me hogtied: any A is a killer, any K probably is too(str8) and someone might already have a set; but someone DOES have 2 pair or AQ, so you are paying a lot to catch up....and big odds are you will get 2nd.
Mark
I have to disagree, Mark. In Chris's example, he has a strong hand on the turn. In low-limit games I find that when I have a hand (like top pair, good-kicker) on the turn, it is very important to bet/raise vs. all the junk they are playing against you. yes they all have draws, but you are still the FAVORITE most times. Otherwise, IMO, there doesn't seem to be any point to playing tight and hitting a hand if you are not going to bet it aggressively.
when you only have a mediocre hand and no good draw, sure, muck the turn vs. a crowd of rabble. spitball
Six see the flop for one bet. BB checks Kx Th for seven.
Flop: 3h 5h Qx.
If I am sure that at least 5 will stay for one and no more than one bet, do I call and see the turn?
Thanks,
At most you could say you have 5 outs. 1 out for the back door flush draw (that will be 10 high), 1 out for the back door straight draw, and 3 outs if you spike a king (and then you have a 10 kicker). With 5 complete outs you would need about 8 players in to see the turn card. Once the turn card comes you will have to recalculate your outs, since you will either have missed your backdoor outs or not. Most of your outs are suspect I wouldn't "take one off" here.
Derrick
Hi all, I'm a strong 5-10 hold'em player and I recently moved to Colorado. While I'm glad they have a few casinos, I am disappointed by the max. $5 bet. I've been up the hill and played Hold'em about ten times and have had moderate success and I was wondering if anyone knows the best times and places to play. I know I'm not going to get rich or make a living playing up there, but I am looking to get the most return for my time and effort. If anyone can offer any input I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance for your help.
I think Harvey's is the best place. There are a lot of "any two cards can win" players, especially on weekends. You quickly find out who the few decent players are (and they are not that great).
Also, they will pay you $1 an hour to play (get a Harvey's Wildcard). Not much, but an extra 20% of a big bet per hour never hurt anyone.
I've played their Wednesday night tournament once and the players seemed pretty weak. It started with 38 players and everyone at the final table made at least $100 ($30 buy in, 1 pre-break rebuy, 1 add-on at break allowed).
Paul Talbot
The games at the lodge can get pretty wild, as can the games at the station. Just as you might expect, the best games are on the weekends.
Last time I played in central city the games at Bullwhackers were generally bad, although don't tell G. Ed that--- he's a dealer there.. :) (and, might I add, a hell of a guy and a first rate poker theorist. Imagine that from a dealer. If you ever make it up to Bullwhackers during a weekday be sure to check him out).
The holiday action has always been excellent up there -- New Year's eve, x-mas weekend, etc. I've always preferred the Lodge because there seem to be more walk-in types due, I presume, to the fact that it's a hotel. I suppose the same goes for Harveys.
I just wanted to get your thoughts on what I saw happen last night at the Bicycle Club last night. I’m sitting at a fairly loose 3-6 hold em table. I’m 5 off the button (no small blind at BC). Third player to act raises and everyone sees the flop except me. Flop comes Qs, 8h, 2s. Check til the raiser bets. 5 people call. Turn comes Kd. Check til the raiser bets again. Then the problem occurs. The dealer burns and turns up a 10d. Immediately the raiser bets again. Only seat 1 calls. Then someone who is not in the hand says seat 3, the button did not call the turn. The dealer looks over and says he never saw the player’s hand. The floorman comes over and says to put the 10d back in the deck, reshuffle and river. The river card is a As. The raiser who was already upset at this point yells I bet anyway. At that point seat one who had shown that she was going to muck her hand when the 10d had shown up raises. Seat 3 who failed to call the turn throws away his hand. After about 5 minutes of arguing and yelling the raiser finally calls and turns up trip Aces. Seat one turns over Js6s and wins the pot. I was just thinking to myself that if I was the man with the set, I’d a been really pissed. But I wanted to know what insight anyone might have had.
That's the way it goes. Every so often, dealers make mistakes and that is the way they are handled.
Hell, it could have helped the guy with AA also, what if the ace had come up, then reshuffled and T hit the river?
This situation is relatively common in loose games. This is why it is important to pay attention and follow the action at all times.
As soon as the dealer rapped and started to burn, the raiser (who should have been watching the action closely), should have said "Wait! Action is not complete" or something.
It's a double edged sword, you want to be at a table of people playing loose and wild and not paying attention, but when you do, things like this are bound to happen.
The Dealer should be shot for not running the game correctly! Did seat 3 call the turn before the Td was put back into the deck and re-shuffled? If he mucked, I think the Td should stand. Otherwise - what the floorman requested be done is correct.
Any which-way the dealers actions are inexcusable!
granted, the dealer made a mistake, but they are human. you have to accept these situations as (hopefully) a small part of the game. kind of like a referee who sometimes blows a crucial call.
I agree. And I agree wholeheartedly. But the frequency of these incidents is unacceptable in all casinos I've been to except those in Vegas.
In Vegas I find dealers that pay attention, control, and moderate the game. In local CA casinos, they ALL seem to let the game take care of itself while they converse with friends or watch TV.
If a good dealer makes a mistake - then mistakes happen - no problem - don't sweat it. When a bad dealer isn't paying attention and makes mistakes they should be hogtied! But they just do it again and again as if it's of no consequence.
And you BAD dealers know who you are!
-Michael
as soon as started playing above 6-12 I noticed that the dealers were much less tolerant of general poker bullshit like showing cards, acting out of turn, etc...
I think this is because casino management wants the 2-4 and 3-6 games to be fun for the players. A "fun" game is not always a well run game. conversely, at the higher limits (relatively speaking) there are players who take the game much more seriously and will voice their concerns to the management. Thus the games are run much better. the other night in fact a player was kicked out for repeatedly exposing cards when they mucked. GOOD MOVE!!
If you are concerned about how a game is being run you should say something to management. I think this is the only way to get the lower limits policed more effectively. BTW, do you play in SoCal or the bay area?
I can see what you're saying. But I don't like it.
I play in SoCal. How about you?
Thanks,
-Michael
I play in the bay area. from the stories I've read on this forum it sounds like the two casino's I play at, Artichoke Joe's and Lucky Chances, are pretty well run.
I play in SoCal at the Bike, Hawaiian Gardens, and Commerce. In NoCal, i've played at oaks but don't have a chance to go so often.
Low limit nofoldem. I am in seat 3 and have AA. I am tight agressive. I bet. Six (6) callers. BB raises, Button raises. I cap (hey everyone, I have AA).
Flop is rainbow 4,7,J. BB bets; I raise; seat 5 calls; button raises, BB raises; I cap.
Turn is nothing. Same thing only 3 players, me, seat 5 and BB. Clear to the BB and I that we both have AA. We laugh outloud; a nervous laugh. We know the best we can do is split the pot. If the board pairs, we're OK, probably. If not, we're toast.
River is a Queen. No straight or flush possibility. The BB bets. I just call. Seat 3 calls.
Seat 3 turns Q,4 for 2 pair. BB and I laugh and congratulate the #3 seat who scoops a decent pot.
Any comments?
The only comment I can think of is that the player in seat #3 played the hand completely wrong. He sure can't raise anywhere. He's just a calling station. He's got a low pair on the flop, with heavy action signifying either a set, or overpair. I'd have been afraid of a set, and I can't believe he'd stay until the river. Don't you love fishies?
Comments would be too obvious, how 'bout this, how'd seat three wind up doing, or is that too obvious as well ?
Clearly you knew the BB was a maniac. If you didn't know that, then capping both the flop and the turn is dangerous. If you and the button both had AA, what could a solid BB have? KK, QQ, or JJ. And to play this way post flop, most likely JJ.
But he was a maniac, so I probably would have played it the same way. Though I still might not have capped the turn. I definitely would have just called the river as you did.
David
BB was not a manaic. He was a decent player and both he and I realized what we had, although we never said it. The calling station had to be moved or else we would be putting in single bets to win 2/3 of a bet and we would split it at that. If we cannot force the calling station to fold, we are in trouble. So, if the calling station also knew what we had, he had more outs than we did to beat us. He could pair either of his cards on the turn or river. We could only split if we paired the board (which would have possibly given calling station a set) or the CS crapped out. He could have had 2 pair on the flop.
So, is it ever wise to check AA if you are sure someone else has AA or possibly fold?
PS, I believe the calling station went broke, but I am not sure.
Sorry. I said maniac because I thought the guy with the Q4 was doing the betting in the BB.
I don't think it would be wise to check AA, even if you know two people have it in this situation. And you certainly can't fold. The BB has to bet and you have to raise, to make it as hard as possible for the Q4 to call.
Going beyond that and capping it is fine, too. Since you and the BB will most likely split the Q4's money. But it's a higher variance play and capping on the flop makes it that much more correct for the Q4 to call on the turn.
I think the BB made a mistake by betting the river unless the Q4 would have called with just 4's. Even an ignorant player might have been aware that he was drawing to 2-pair for the win, so it's quite possible that the river bet would only be called if AA was beaten. This is especially true if the player is insensitive to the pot size (duh!) and isn't aware that it's correct to call with damn near anything at that stage.
Some players delight in cracking AA and KK, so they stick around to the river with any pair, hoping to snag a second pair or trips. It can be a mistake to bet the river with these guys. But it depends.
David
I'm moving up to $5-$10 HE and I need to know what kind of bakroll I'll need. I would think at least 25 big bets = $250. But again, I'd like to hear from somone who plays at this level consistently.
Thanks.
$250 won't get you through a single bad session. If you're going to play 5-10 exclusively, the usual rule of thumb for solid winning players is 250-300 big bets. Most winning players require a lot more.
Are you talking about the buy-in or total bankroll? You shouldn't buy-in for less than $200, so $250 won't get you through a single bad session. If you're going to play 5-10 exclusively, the usual rule of thumb for solid winning players is 250-300 big bets. Most winning players require a lot more.
$250 as a buy in. I'm planning on playing for approx 4-5 hours. Haven't played with the others yet so I can't size up their playing ability.
I usually bring about 70 big bets with me. Although I do play considerably higher limits where the games are much more aggressive. I can't remember the last time I came close to needing this much, but I don't ever want to be left short in a good game.
= Raider
Several months ago you spoke of a book that contained the odds of making various hands at various stages of a game of HE. Can you provide that information again and a place where this book can be purchased?
Thanks,
-Michael
The book is entitled "The Hold'em's Odds Book" by Mike Petriv. I believe it can be ordered through the Gamblers Book Club here in Vegas or through CardPlayer Magazine or through Poker Digest Magazine. I do not believe that 2+2 carries it.
.
Playing a 3-3-6-12 game yesterday (don't know how else to describe it). On the button, I get pocket 2's. A guy in early position raises, but I call (dubious?) with 5 callers in front of me and the blinds behind me.
Flop comes 2-5-10 rainbow.
Preflop raiser bets out, 2 callers, I raise, blinds fold, preflop raiser re-raises, original callers fold, I cap, he calls. Am I playing it too aggressively?? My reasoning was that with his preflop raise, he had high cards, probably an overpair, or at least A-10.
Turn comes 7
Preflop raiser checks to me, I bet out, he calls. Once he calls, I know he has only a high pair.
River comes Q
Preflop raiser checks to me blind (before the Q hits). I bet out and he reraises me. Keep in mind the river bet is 12 now, so I have 12 more to call.
I assume folding is out of the question; should I call or re-raise?
Results next post.
David
The spider sense started tingling, so I just called and saw pocket queens. Difficult beat, but I would have played it exactly the same as him (except maybe not the re-raise on the flop?). I think he reraised the flop because he had seen me playing top pair aggressively throughout the game and put me on that. He seemed rather surprised at my cap on the flop and I think realized that he was not best anymore at that point.
I think you played it fine...
I wouldn't reraise on the river. Call him and pay him off if he got lucky.
I think I would have played it the same. His reraise on the flop screams pocket Tens or better, which you all beat except tens. When he only calls your turn bet, I'd figure my hand to be the best.
He got lucky on you...
ThePrince
Not that this means anything, but I probably would've played it the same way both of you did, except his check in the dark (although I guess it worked). I would venture to say that the combined probabilities of his hand being his hand being the best and (slim) him drawing out he probably didn't make a big mistake (if any?) seeing you to the river. You definitely didn't make any mistakes. All in all it's just one of those things that happen.
Steve "the lurker" Sommer
I guess maybe I'm an ex-lurker now, who knows, :)
I would just call the river and not re-raise. I think you played the hand correctly. Your cold-call of the pre-flop raise is right because you have a lot of opponents and it is unlikely to get raised again.
You have much better implied odds in this game structure. Couldn't you justify coldcalling quite often with any pocket pair? Even without lots of callers in front of you?
The flop, turn, and river bets equal 7 pre-flop bets. So if you cold call, you are getting 7:2 implied odds if your set always wins. That would make it a marginal call at 7:1 when you thought it would be three handed and +EV for sure if you thought it would be four handed.
Is this a rational analysis? The implication is that you should cold call with a pocket pair anytime you have a raiser, plus another player (or two?) in front of you.
David
Thats an interesting question as well; I had never played under it before, and I noticed that people were pretty brave until the river bet, but that $12 was pretty scary to them.
Of course, I had played 10-20 for the first time the previous weekend, so it didn't scare me much!
My friend and I debated on the proper way to play that betting structure, but never came to a conclusion.
David
It has to be correct to play more drawing hands before the flop and on the flop. I'm just not sure how many more, or which ones. :-) You will get punished severly for kicker problems, so that has to be taken into account.
It has to turn into something you really like alot by the turn (and still have people calling), so I think I would like sets in this game best of all. Straights would be good too. Flushes might get hard to collect on. Baby flushes could get downright hazardous.
I suspect that once one adapts to the structure, one could do very well in this game. Especially an expert reader, since the last bet is so large.
David
I've written about this before, and I'll do it again.
The 3-3-6-12 structure is about the worst structure in poker. It is moronic that the final bet should equal the sum of all previous bets. 3-6-6-12 is better if one wishes to use a three-tiered structure.
Part of the problem is that you cannot value bet a middling hand on the end. You need near the nuts or a complete bluff. For someone to call the last bet, he will have a better than average hand. Unless you are playing with a financial haemophiliac, you won't be getting second pairs, low two pairs, etc to call. Some say that the implied odds are good in this structure. That is only true if you can get paid off when you hit a big hand. If you make a flush, you wil probably have to bet it yourself, and the large bet will probably drop many potential callers. If you make a habit of the crying call then you will be bleeding away lots of chips.
Eric
Eric, I completely agree with you. In fact if card rooms are going to experiment with different betting structures then I would like to see the betting limit double on the flop rather than on the turn or at the river. In a structured seven card stud game when a player sees 5 cards the betting limit doubles. I would like to see the same in Hold-Em. You can protect your hand better on the flop, it would lower your variance, and it would increase your hourly earn.
Jim, If the cardrooms were trying to make you happy (or most of the players who read twoplustwo, I suppose), they might very well experiment as you suggest. You'll lower your variance and increase your hourly earn, and be thrilled that the managers listened to you for once. But they're not necessarily interested in that. They're quite likely to be interested in getting more action from too-loose players who get that thrill from sucking out their nut-flushes and full houses. Maybe this is even good for you. The more suck-out players in the casinos, the more money good players like yourself are going to make.
-solublefish
I wouldn't mind playing in a game where the bet doubled on the flop.
solublefish does make a good point in regard to that, I think. Waiting until the turn to double does make it a bit better for the fish, and so keeps them around longer. This may not be as important in places like Vegas or LA, where there is a large pool of fish waiting to get into a game. In a place like Edmonton, though, you probably need to keep the same players coming back.
When debating this topic (or the related structure 3-3-6-6/12) some time ago, I actually had someone say that it was good because you could really protect your hand with that 12 bet on the end.
Eric
Doubling the bet on the flop would only drive out the super fish and would make the moderately bad players play better. It would not increase your earn rate.
As I'm sure you know, the Orleans spreads - or at least did when I was last there - a 1-4-8-8 with blinds of $1 + $2. Technically this is a spead limit game, although the only time the betting did not follow a rigid structure was,
1. pre-flop there were alot of $2 raises from the first raisor ( the option was to raise either 2, 3, or 4 dollars ), almost all pre-flop re-raises were for the full 4 dollars...
2. on the turn, it was not uncommon to see a player bet $4, but it was the exception as opposed to the norm...
3. on the river, $4 bets were common; it was almost as though the bettor was saying, "I have a real hand, but not the nuts"...
While in New Mexico, there was a game almost exactly like it, but there the only time the betting differed from that of a normal 4-8 game was #1 - they even had a term for it; the dealer would announce, "mini", whenever someone raised $2 instead of the $4 maximum. ( The blinds in N.M. were also 1 and 2.)
I didn't play alot at the Orleans, but I did take a sizeable amount out of the game for the time I did play; ~ $21 or $22 per hour for close to 100 hours.
N.M. was a different story. I was there for about six weeks, logged about 400 hours, and averaged over $25/hr, WHILE GETTING FAR LESS THAN MY SHARE OF HANDS. I truly believe that after rake ( 5%, $3 max., no jackpot ) and tokes, that game would have been worth $30/hr, if not a little more.
BTW, my varience was next to zero. In 40+ sessions I got stuck over $200 only twice. I had a total of six losing sessions; the biggest was a little over $150. My biggest win was $400; I made sure NOT too haul off too much in one night unless it was from such a long session that the players I was with at the end of the night were not the same ones as at the beginning.
The problem was, I don't believe I could have made a living at it even if I had chosen to; I was literally breaking the game. There were usually two tables going at a time - several of the regulars would get up when I sat down. One even said to me, "you're about the nicest guy I've ever met, and I don't mind losing, but with you here I don't even get the chance to run lucky and make a hit ONCE in a while - it's really not much fun to lose every time".
Even if I were the best player on the planet, which of course I'm not, one player isn't usually able to "wreck" a game - at least not at a full table ( we sometimes would even play 11-handed ). But this was different. Because of the 1 and 2 blinds, and the extremely passive nature of the game, I was seeing an unbelievable # of flops; I'm not certain exactly what % of the time I was entering the pot, but I'm pretty sure it was more than a third of the time, and this was NOT counting my blind(s) which were very seldom ( 10% ? ) raised. My calling requirements from the SB was that I be given two cards; I was tossing in that extra dollar with implied odds of well over 60-1 on average. It may have even been closer to 80-1. They may have been passive when it came to betting, but they would call - at least before and on the flop - with almost anything.
And then, as if that weren't enough, you could get them to lay their hand(s) down on the turn if you pressured them - all you needed was a pair and a player to your right who liked to bet his draws ( which he would of course miss more than 4 times out of five.)
It was alot of fun while it lasted; $10,000 in less than 2 months is a pretty nice haul, even if you're playing 10-12 hours a day to get it.
But I'd rather have had a $20/hr win rate, and a steady core group of players from whom to get it.
J-D
- It was the San Dia casino, just south of Santa Fe if any of you would like to see if the "golden goose" is still alive. They even have an arrangement with a three and a half star hotel - $49 a night; there was no hotel on site when I was there.
This is one of he few areas in which I agree COMPLETELY with Mr. Malmuth - there is a chapter entitled "three 'tiers' for hold'em", in his book: "Poker Essays",( I'm not sure whether it's volume I or II).
I would love to see the bet double on the flop, as long as someone can guarantee me a steady influx of "new blood", because the current "donators" would not stay around for very long.
They would seldom ever have a winning session; they might NEVER have two in a row.
Played any good no-limit [or even pot-limit] lately ?
I know it does get spread from time to time out west; I've heard a few places even spread it on a regular basis. ( I live on the east coast. We see, at most, two or three games a year in A.C. - I have never seen one in Connecticut.)
There is another problem with a double bet on the flop; some of those who like to chase even though they KNOW they are taking a little the worst of it would stop if the flop bet were made larger.
How many players can you think of - I can think of ALOT of them - who will call with virtually anything on the flop when it costs one bet to do so, but will play almost correctly if they are faced with a bet and a raise.
Do we want to do something that induces them to play better ?
- It is a little like having a maniac in the game; ONLY in terms of the fact that the maniac will often make the weaker players play better ( even if it is only by accident ).
I love to play against maniacs in short-handed games; I have seen many of the DESTROY otherwise perfectly good ring games.
Just my opinion,
J-D
P.S. Jim, thanks for contacting me. I look forward to your follow up. Best regards.
Your reasons for disliking my idea about doubling the limit on the flop have also been voiced by a number of poker experts. However, I remain unconvinced. I honestly think that if this were tried for awhile it would work out. These same experts have stated that spread limit games like $1-$4-$8-$8 won't last and die out. But $1-$4-$8-$8 is the most popular low limit hold-em game in Vegas being spread at the Flamingo, Mandalay Bay, Monte Carlo, Sams Town, Boulder Station, and others. I don't know if you ever played backgammon but when the doubling cube was introduced into the game in the 1920s some people thought that it would make it a bad gambling game. Nothing could have been further from the truth. Backgammon remained a great gambling game and really took off in the 1960s and 1970s.
Multiway pot you are on the button. With Q-T suited.
Say 4 limpers to you, you call, the blinds call and check.
So 7 players on the flop.
Flop comes Q-J-J rainbow.
Everyone checks to you... Do you bet ? With this many opponents some clown could be slowplaying a J.
Say you did bet to protect your hand and got called by 4 players.
Turn is a blank, say a 4. Everyone checks to you, Do you bet again so noone with a K or Ace gets a free card?
What I usually do is bet the flop, bet the turn and fold if check-raised.
Sounds good to you?
Comments appreciated...
ThePrince
Just read the 5th street problem thread below...
Pretty much the same situation. Got my answers there unless someone care to elaborate or states another point of vew...
ThePrince
If there was ever a question that deserved the answer "it depends", this is definitely one of them.
There are a few ways to play this and much depends on your assessment of the situation and the players that called the flop. The problem is that it's not just an A or K that could beat you, but any card that fits in the straight zone (an 8 or 9 for example). In some cases it could be best to simply check and fold for a bet on the turn.
= Raider
5/10 semi tight game. I am in the 4th seat after the big blind. The 3 seat raises and I fold because I did not know how many callers I would get. My question is how many callers should be in the pot before a raise can be called with 77? The flop was A77 but I feel the fold was correct. Right or wrong?
Fold is probably in order depending on the preflop raiser.
If you get the hand heads up, you may have to call all the way to the river even if a 7 doesn't hit the board. So you will only be getting 50:50 on the play (the dead money from the blinds will be small relative to the 3 BB you will have to put in.
Let's say there is a 50% chance he has an over pair, and 50% chance he has 2 overcards. If he has an overpair he will win by far most of the time - if he has 2 overcards he will win 50% of the time. So you only win about 25% of the time and you are getting even money.
If you get one other caller - IE 3 way action - the scenario is much worse. If the other player acts after you you will have to worry about a raise if you call a flop bet.
I would almost always fold here, and if I did decide to play the hand, I would raise. That's because I want to get it heads up and I want to get to the river as cheaply as possible if I don't hit a set, straight, etc.
-SmoothB-
I would fold also. I want maybe 4 or 5 callers (?). Also, one must be pretty sure that noone else will reraise. You don't want to get trapped calling 3 or 4 bets with 77.
That being said, I have a question for all of the better players than me (read as anyone that posts on this forum). Could a case be made for reraising if a)the guy would open raise with a wide range of hands b)the reraise will likely knock out all or almost all players behind you and c)the reraise will set up a steal on later rounds. Just wondering.
Steve Sommer
I think so. Honestly I don't think this is a good play but if it is to be played at all you must raise preflop and raise a bet on the flop. But that's too hard. Folding is much easier.
On the other hand, note that this can be a good play in order ro get more action on other hands you play. I've never been the biggest advocate of 'throw your money away now so you can make more later.' Most players will never really pay THAT close attention to what you do anyway. And if they do, any play that you make one time in one thousand will register on most people's brains as one time in ten. So if these plays are to be made it should be EXTREMELY rarely.
Another thing - if the preflop raiser is a maniac and is raising every hand, then it is fine to go ahead and pop it with pocket nines or higher. The odds are much better that he doesn't have 2 overcards. If he only has one overcard then the odds are safely in your favor.
-SmoothB-
The problem with re-raising in this spot is that in addition to the fact that UTG is supposed to have a big hand, you don't know what's behind you. With better position, this is certainly an option. In fact, if the player is as you describe, OR possibly on a steal, re-raising is preferrable.
= Raider
Another question, would such a reraise of a possible steal that you described work better in a higher limit where players are generally tighter, but could see such an event occuring, or in a low limit game where most players are oblivious to your intentions but loose. Meaning the LL players may take it as more of a raise for value than a "resteal"
Thanks Steve
Another question, would such a reraise of a possible steal that you described work better in a higher limit where players are generally tighter, but could see such an event occuring, or in a low limit game where most players are oblivious to your intentions but loose.
That's one long question :) But I think I get the gist of it. It all comes down to "know your player".
Notice that you might not be 're-stealing' anything, as it's quite possible 77 will be the best hand against many steal raises.
In tight/tough games it can get tricky. Player A goes for a steal and Player B re-steals. Player A realizes this and re-steals again, If Player B feels his read is good, he will sometimes wait for the expensive street and re-steal again! etc. etc. Again, it comes down to reading hands well and knowing your player.
The thing to be careful of in loose/weak games is that if a player is oblivious to re-steals he may also be oblivious to steal situations in general. This means that when certain players raise, they are NOT stealing even though it may seem that way! In this case, it's rarely correct to re-steal, although a re-raise might still be correct if he is weak and you otherwise feel you have good control over him. Of course, if this player is loose/aggressive then by all means re-raise with your better hands. However, now you are not re-stealing, you are isolating. There is a difference.
= Raider
You can (as Smooth B. correctly suggests) play 77 heads up profitably [in a raised pot], but I would usually choose not to get involved.
You can certainly play it for profit against a full field, even if you are out of position vis-a-vis the raisor.
You CAN'T play it for profit against 2 or 3 players - the likely number you would have had if you had called.
Good fold - sorry about he flop,
J-D
Thanks for the responces. It did end up a 2 way pot with the raise taking it down with KK. I am sure that there will be a next time that I have position and the right number of players, to play 77. Thanks and good luck.
Right. (most times)
= Raider
I found a site that claims to be a complete guide to Hold 'em. I'm fairly new to the game and I don't know what to think of it. I was wondering if someone more familiar with the game could check it out and tell me if it's legitimate. Here's the link
http://garycarson.home.mindspring.com/sample/TOC.htm
xyz
Even if your post is a joke as implied by ratso, I will still give a serious response. It is not the site that is the complete guide to hold'em, that phrase refer's to his book "The Complete Book of Hold'Em Poker". Gary sells the book as an electronic file while he is waiting for the book to be published.
I purchased the book from him recently. He sent it to me within a few hours. Great response time. Is it a complete book on the subject? No, no book is. Is it a good book? Most definitely Yes.
Gary includes material that I have not found in other books and it is valuable material. If you don't know some things he discusses, you will not maximize your wins. I recommend the book highly to beginning and intermediate players. I think it is essential. An expert will know most of the stuff, but even an expert might find something of value.
I skimmed through the link you posted. Everything I read seemed pretty sound and reasonable, not too much different than what the 2+2 authors say. the one thing that Carson does not seem to like is starting hand tables. IMHO, starting hand tables are a good way for a beginner to start playing poker. You'll also notice that not many people (and definitely not the 2+2 authors) advocate strict adherence to starting hand tables once you get beyond a certain understanding of the game. I also think the starting hand table in HPFAP is way too loose for a beginner because you will be lost when trying to play some of the hands and you won't know how to adjust your hand selection for a particular game. Just my opinion.
I am playing some 4-8. The table is 7 handed. 4 of the other players are bad players who play too many hands. 2 of the players seem reasonable. Although I can't win low limit consistently I feel that I play the correct cards but still have some leaks that I am trying to fix. I am trying to decide when to believe the bad players when I get raised. The last session I had, I had 3 cases where I probably should have folded but hung out to the end.
Case 1) I am in late position and raise with JJ. I get 6 callers. The flop comes T63 (rainbow). UTG bets, I raise and he re-raises. UTG plays way to many hands. I call the raise and the turn/river bets. He shows T3o. I lose when I don't improve my JJ.
Case 2) I am in BB with AA. I raise and there are 5 callers. Flop is 643. I bet and I am raised by a lady UTG. I call the raise and the turn/river. She shows 43. I lose when I don't improve my AA. This lady also plays way too many hands and is not overly imaginative.
Case 3) I am in BB with 75o. Flop is K72. No bets. Turn is 5. I bet and I am raised by another player. I call the raise and the river and he shows k5 for 2 pair.
Should I just fold in these cases and save 2+ big bets for each hand? There were no obvious flush draws they were drawing for. Of course case 2 had a potential of a flopped straight.
Against solid players I don't want the image that I will fold everytime against a raise. Do I care about that image against bad players?
WW
I don't see how you can fold in any of these situations. Your opponent would have to come in with some totally goofy holding in each case. Furthermore, in Case 1 and Case 2 you had a lot of outs to a better hand. Unfortunately in Case 3 you were dead to a Seven.
I think in the first hand you can fold on the river when you don't improve. UTG bets out, hero raises, and gets re-raised. The re-raise tells me he can at least beat top pair. remember this is low limit, and goofy starting cards are not unusual.
Rich
Somtimes you just gotta lose some money. All 3 of these cases were such a time.
= Raider
.
This is not a response to inform you, because I too am a beginer, I just wanted to tell you that I got shot down this weekend also with AA as well, flop came 2,3,7 rainbow, turn came my Ace, river came a five and the same guy who had been busting my chops all night showed me his 4,9o to take down a nice chubby pot. hang in there, I believe that when the bankroll becomes large enough, and you move up in limit your solid play will make you money.
thus the problem with low limit...My suggestion-keep playing correct poker. Realize that the bad players, although they may collectively win a few pots, as individuals they exchange the money amongst each other. BUT the idea is to win $$, not beat everybody! Use their weaknesses to induce calls when you have the goods, and you will win. Two other things about low limit-play extended sessions to allow your skill to take effect-ie playing an hour leaves you susceptible to some beats, but playing 8 hours will win you the money when playd solid and straightforward. Also, a tell-if you get raised preflop by a weak player, and the after some calls they look at their cards, it means they have AKo. If they had high pairs, they wouldn't have to look, so a glance preflop after they raise and get callers means they are looking at suits!Good luck!
of course you want to cultivate good, tight aggressive play. at the same time, however, there is SO much money for the taking against losers like those you were playing against. the problem with tables like that is too many see the flop and it makes your high pocket pairs much less valuable. my advice? read and re- read sklansky/ malmuth HEFAP until the pages fall out. especially the sections on loose games. if you can adjust your game appropriately, you'll be a winning player at the low limit or the higher limit tables. best of luck.
It sounds like you have an overly loose holdem game. The first rule in these games is that you will have to show down winners. Checking and calling is more correct in these types of games than the 'average' holdem game. Two of the three situations are great examples of this. I would consider folding to a bet on the 6-4-3 flop as this is a fairly 'coordinated' flop for a loose low limit game. This would depend on the size of the pot and my read on the players.
WW-
You may have some leaks in your game, but I can assure you that nobody has ever gone broke calling turn and river bets with overpairs and better. Like Jim said, I'm not sure you could have gotten away from any of these hands-- in fact, I imagine I would have lost even more with them than you did.
Maybe this will help.
Case 1: An alternative way to play that JJ is to call before the flop and save the raise for the flop or the turn. Raising players already in for partial bets requires a hand better than JJ, because no one is going anywhere and you end up building the pot to a size where anyone can chase you down. Because of your pre-flop raise UTG thought (correctly) that he could beat anything you had (except TT, specifically). As far as his three-bet goes, I would have capped it and bet into him on the turn and river, if he checked. If he bets into me on the turn or raises, then there is no way he's bluffing, so I fold. Sounds crazy but it will save you money in the long run, and sometimes he'll muck on the river.
Case 2: Okay, you really have to raise with AA, but that's no reason to just call on the flop. A Re-raise here would eliminate the ambiguity, because it's a rare hold'em player that will cap the betting on a maybe. She could have raised you with a 5, but you have to re-raise to find out. Be aggressive early, but don't ride it into the ground by calling if she caps it off and then bet/raises you on the turn
Case 3: Man, that's awful. You see the flop and the turn for free only to get two pair cracked by some doofus who called with K5? I'm not gonna touch this one.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that by being more aggresive, in general, you eliminate the doubt in these situations.
Wanna,
Good questions. I am a beginner also and have the same problem. I try to observe how the better players play their hands, and also ask questions if they're the receptive types.
There were some good answers here.
Papio
Hi
In a $2-$4 game I make it to the flop with only one other person. I bet $2 and he has only $1 left, which he calls. Is this an immediate showdown, or do we see the rest of the community cards? Our house rule is that it is up to the player with the bigger stack to decide whether he/she wants to have a showdown now, or see the rest of the cards.
It all public card rooms and casinos the rule is that the rest of the cards are dealt out when it is heads-up with one player all-in. Whoever has the best hand wins after all the boardcards are out.
If there is a third player involved who is not all-in then betting continues between the two players who have money and a side pot is created. At showdown the two players first show their hands and the winner of the side pot is determined. Then the all-in player shows his hand and the winner of the main pot is determined.
im in the bb with QT of diamonds at a paradise $5 tournament table. this is the first round of betting (10/15 blinds). i check and five people see the flop. the flop comes: 2c 7d 3d
i bet and am raised by the player immediately to my left. everyone cold calls his raise to me. shouldnt i just fold this hand? i mean, at least one of these guys must be on a better flush draw right?
i called and then folded when the turn was a blank but i really hated my call. why waste 15? any thoughts? perhaps my bet on the flop was an error, but i like the way it gave me the information that others were on the same draw.
I don't really like your fold. you have five callers and the odds of making your flush are something like 1.8:1 (approximately). If you had the nut flush draw it would even be a good idea to raise for value. Anyways, with outstanding implied odds plus all the money in the pot I think its worth drawing to the flush, even if might be second best. also take into account that you have two over cards and they just might be good if you hit one of them.
I think you made a mistake in your math or I am a little confused as well. You say the odds of him making the flush is "1.8 to 1." I believe his odds are about 3 to 1. If it was 1.8 to a fold would be crazy. If the odds are 3 to 1 he may still want to go for the flush because of the number of players in the hand plus the additional implied odds if he makes his hand. However, I think the point of kdf's post is that undoubtedly other players are on a flush draw which limits his odds even further. Instead of having 9 outs he may only have 5 or 6.
Once he bet on the flop, I definately would have called the raise because of the size of the pot. You also make a good point that he has overcards which is another reason to call. We don't know what the turn card was but I think he should have called the turn bet as well.
If you have two cards to come and a four flush you will hit your flush a little more than 1/3 of the time. this is why he is getting odds of about 1.8:1 to hit his flush. it does not take in to account over cards being good if they pair.
If you have two cards to come and a four flush you will hit your flush a little more than 1/3 of the time. this is why he is getting odds of about 1.8:1 to hit his flush. it does not take into account over cards being good if they pair.
I agree that the 9 remaining diamonds are probably not in the deck but he is still getting excellent odds to stay in this hand.
In a tournament I am careful about wasting too many chips on draws but this early in the tourney I would probably check/call the turn to see the river.
There are a lot of hands that the other players could be on. Of course 2 of them could be better flush draws.
Ken
Since you are appoximately 36% to make the flush, and there are 5 callers, you probably should have stayed. The question comes down to 1) are these the types of players who would raise before the flop with A-x, K-x suited?? If they ARE, then you are in the drivers seat.(there were no raises) If they are likely to call, be leery as they may have this. 2) Did you bet the flop to knock out other hands? If so, a check raise may have worked better. If you were not trying to knock people out, then a check/call would have been better. A check-raise will also set up a bluff because you will act early, and if no other threatening cards appear, you may be able to bluff all unmade draws on the river. All that aside, in a tournament, your decision to play this hand at this low level is questionable. Ask yourself-do I want to waste some part of my stack on this hand? Probably not. I tend to play extremely tight early in a tournament, and then raise often later on when I have cards and position. Save your money for when you have the goods, and invest it then. But if you were to play, I believe my advice will help.
i only played it cause i was in the big blind, it was free to see the flop. i was betting the flop straight out cause it was all junk and i was sitting in the big blind. decent players tend to play a bit tighter in these mini-tourneys so since everyone still in called the raiser cold i figure why bother. my overcards are dominated against people cold calling raises, my flush is likely beaten if i make it, i cant bet or raise with any confidence even if i do make something on the turn or river and it may get raised again on the turn and/or river. in a normal low limit game id probably look at the turn, but since it was a tourney table im thinking fold was still the right call. but maybe im just being weak tight.. thanks for the reponses guys.
What about your overcards?!!
There are currently 15 bets in the pot, you may have as many as 15 outs, and you regret calling one more bet? You can find many better spots to fold than here.
= Raider
I wouldn't fold this hand. It's a good chance to pick up a lot of chips early without risking many because of the multi-way action. It's good to be leary of a bigger flush, but you're getting too big an overlay, especially when considering the level of play of many of your opponents in a $5 tournament.
I know it's important to tighten up in a tournament but ... your fold on the turn is awful poker. Nothing in the betting would lead me to believe that a bigger flush draw was out... any bigger flush draw should be raising since the are profiting on every bet that goes into the pot...
Truthfully in a ring game I would three bet the pot on the flop as I figure I am making money on every call (and the will all call)... and the liklehood of a bigger flush being out is very slim... It's like folding a set because you "know" someone else has a bigger set..
My guess is that the raiser has an overpair or top pair or even a str8 draw... and the rest of the players have overcards or some piece of the flop.
sean
i agree with the above posts. gotta stick around for the turn.
but i think that there was another mistake in this play. betting into a multiway pot with no intention of calling a raise will cost you a lot of money very quickly. you have got a decent drawing hand, but you are out of position. check and call. or even in some cases, if the player to your left bets and everyone calls, you may want to raise for value. i really don't think that you need to worry too much about the higher flush. people play like maniacs in paradise, especially in the early levels of the tournaments. best of luck to you.
-captain marlow
Playing 3-6 the other night, I have A8 hearts in late position and I call.
Flop comes 3-4-5 hearts.
Small blind bets, big blind calls, middle position raises, I call (? - raise?), both blinds call.
Turn comes 6 diamonds
This card made me happy, because all the straights are going to hang around now. Small blind bets, both players call, I call (? - time to raise?) My reasoning here is that I don't want to show strength because I want all the straights (of which I guess there are at LEAST two) to feel safe. Of course, there is always the possibility of a straight flush to worry about as well, and I had recently seen a hand where a nut flush got absolutely slaughtered by a straight flush.
River comes 5 diamonds
Small blind bets, both call, I raise, inciting a smile from the dealer (the other three players have been giving him a hard time about a variety of things). The other three players all call (whew, no straight flush or full house). I show my cards to a barely supressed laugh by the dealer and win the pot.
Did I play it too slow? Obviously it worked out, but anyone holding 5-6 would have made be look pretty stupid (and that is a possible holding for the game I was playing in). I didn't want to push the players out, as I generally play sort of tight but aggressive, so I had a feeling if I leaped in with a raise on the flop or turn that would be the end of the hand. In reality, I was really proud of how I sucked them all in, but would be curious to hear comments.
David
I think you did all right. If two players would have stayed in for a raise at the turn, a raise would have been in order, you would have achieved four of their BB in the pot instead of three.
As for showing strength, I wouldn't have worried about it. The other players either made their hands or are commited to the river. The straight flush would have been a non thought for me.
You have to have an idea what the players in the pot would do, if you weren't sure what they would do the low road usually gets that extra bet. I think you played well.
Mike
I believe your slow play on the flop was correct. I would pull the trigger on the turn by raising since I now want to charge anyone on two pair the maximum price to continue. Furthermore, I may get re-raised by a smaller flush. I will almost always get crying calls on the turn and the river from straights. The other problem with not raising on the turn is that a fourth Heart may show up at the river and you lose your market.
Another reason to raise on the turn is that the players who are drawing to a heart or larger straight will miss and not call a bet or raise on the river. A raise on the turn will get the money in the pot before they fold.
If you were in middle position, your slowplay would make more sense, as players after you might not call two bets cold. But since you had the button, you should have raised the turn.
The convention play is to cold call and wait for the turn to raise. If you raise, most low limit opponents will put you on a flush, although some will so strongly expect you to slowplay here that they'll convince themselves that you can't have it.
Checking the turn was disasterous -- it was almost certainly impossible to recover on the river the bets you lost on the turn. Sometimes we get so caught up with trying to fool our opponents that we wait too long to let the cat out of the bag. But you have to lower the hammer while they think they're still alive.
I didn't check the turn..I called to a better in front of me?
I think my thinking at the time ran along "Someone (or more than one) are sitting on straights and are betting out to see where they stand in relation to the flushes. I have to hide my flush and convince them that I am calling on some kind of draw, maybe only the ace of hearts, so that they will think their straights are good."
When I raised on the river, almost the whole table looked shocked and seemed to think I had made a full house. After they called my raise, one player even said something to that effect as I was about to turn over my cards. Its too bad, in fact, that a total rag didn't hit on the river so that maybe the straights would have raised me back! That second 5 just scared them all silly.
The point about a 4th heart hitting was well taken. I discussed this hand with a friend I consider quite good and he made this point as well.
David
the fact that they called while suspecting you of having a full house should more than waylay your fears about scaring them off their staights AT ANY POINT. You are playing low-limit. RAISE RAISE RAISE. then cap-it. spitball
Sorry David, I meant calling instead of checking.
Rereading your post it's clear that you did make up for the bets you lost on the turn when you raised on the river. Ordinarily, however, you won't get that chance. The river action could well have gone check, check, check, you bet, call, fold, fold. In which case you'd lose 2 big bets by not raising the turn, more than an hour's worth of solid play down the drain.
If you raise on the turn, they're not going to fold. They'll call with straight draws because you might have spiked a second pair or a set.
The only time people fold draws in low limit is when they probably shouldn't.
IMO you should have raised on the turn. The 6 offsuit is key. Your raise could just as well be interpreted as a made straight, 3 or 7. With so many players you are likely to get callers to your raise. No one folded when it got to you! I would have some marginal reaction if the turn had been Qc or some other card that could not help anyone and made you want to pull the trigger on the river. However, when the 6 came it was almost certain to help someone. Anyone still on a draw would be compelled to call your raise due to pot odds. I think you missed a raise! Also, you may even have gotten a reraise to a 78 or a lesser flush.
Playing 5-10, I have KQo. Two key players in the hand:
1)on my right, a very good player (VGP) who makes lots of aggressive plays 2)on my left, a calling station (CS)
I have KsQd. Preflop VGP raises to 10, I reraise to 15, CS calls, VGP calls, three other callers in between.
Flop comes Qc 3h 5h
Early position bets, VGP raises, I reraise, CS calls VGP caps, I call, CS calls, all others drop out.
Turn comes 9c
VGP checks. I check. CS checks.
River comes 7h.
VGP bets. I fold. CS calls.
VGP shows Ah4h. CS mucks.
Comments on this hand (especially VGP capping the flop and raising preflop?)
David
I'm not sure VGP deserves his name. Raising in early position with A4 is very questionable.
Reraising with KQ is a very bad idea. Mucking would probably be the best move, as it is very common to raise in early position with AK or AQ. Most of the time, you will be drawing very slim or dead.
VGP played very well after the flop. You should have bet the turn, though, as he obviously didn't have you beat. You should have charged him to make his draw, and you want CS to pay for drawing against you.
On the river, I would have paid off one more bet, just to be sure. If no one called him, I wouldn't sleep very well not knowing if I had mucked the best hand. You don't have to win very many of these showdowns to make the final call correct. Please read HPFAP.
It sounds like you are playing in a game that could be very profitable. But if you are going to beat it, you need to tighten up and play better. Good luck.
pre-flop, I agree that VGP isn't. knowing that he over-plays mediocre holdings pre-flop, and that a calling station is on the left, does your opinion of David's pre-flop re-raise with KQo change? spitball
It's hard to put myself in his shoes, because if he thought VPG to be good, he shouldn't have called preflop with KQ. If he thought VGP was overly aggressive, as I do, the raise makes more sense. But it will still be wrong a good percentage of the time, as VGP is just as likely to raise with premium hands as anyone else.
With all of the players still to act behind him I think David should have folded this hand before the flop.
"VGP played very well after the flop. You should have bet the turn, though, as he obviously didn't have you beat. You should have charged him to make his draw, and you want CS to pay for drawing against you."
With knowledge of the results, yes, naturally I should have bet the flop. But he had raised preflop, so I must consider that he may have AA, KK, or AQ, right? That was why I was curious about his flop cap; he is going to pretty great lengths to buy the turn for free, especially considering he is out of position. When he then checked the turn, I of course have to fear the check raise, so I checked the turn.
David
It doesn't make sense to me that he would go for a check raise given the action on the flop and the nature of the board. Just my read, but I would have put him on the flush draw when he checked.
If I got check raised, it wouldn't be the first time. And I would really hate it if I let CS draw out on me for free. I still say bet, and let him raise, which I'm pretty sure he wouldn't do.
If you think he has AA, KK, AQ, etc, then you shouldn't have called on the flop, right? See how complicated it gets when you put yourself in a bad position? This is why KQ doesn't play well against a preflop raiser. It just isn't a good enough hand.
Does your answer change if the VGP is on the button and therefore has position on me?
LOL, you really like the KQ don't you? Do you realize that better players routinely throw away KQ and AT before the flop if they are the first to enter the pot?
But to play your "what if" game, if there were a couple of limpers, you called, and VGP raised, I still don't like your hand. I would like it even less if you raised, and VGP reraised. But I would pay one more bet to see what it brings. The hand definitely plays differently if you are the first raise with it.
I would bet the flop, call when VGP raised, and check the turn. When VGP checks, I would start liking my hand, but I would still check and call on the river when the heart comes.
The main problem I see with your play is reraising an up front raiser rather than folding. Even if you thought you had a good hand, you know that your raise won't push out the players behind you, especially if one of them has a premium hand. Leave raising with KQ for late position, when you stand a good chance of taking the pot or getting the action heads-up.
Next, don't give free cards when you have top pair and a good kicker. If they check to you, assume they can't beat you and bet. Never let them draw out for free.
David is posting a hand that I had played on a 5-10 table.
I forgot to mention that the VGP was ON THE BUTTON.
I reraised small blind with KQo because I thought he was capable of making a very aggressive position-raise.
When he capped the flop, I thought he was playing a set of Q's very fast because of the two hearts on board, so I was going to check and call down. That is, until the third heart came on the river and I figured my top-pair wouldn't hold up against a calling station who I thought had either crap or was going for the (now made) flush draw, or the possible set of Q's on my right (which turned out to be the nut flush draw).
I especially pegged VGP on pocket Qs because I figured he might have taken my early position reraise preflop as a signal I might have KK or AA so he didn't cap preflop. I think he was very good because he may have used just that fact to come up with a big free-card/bluff play on the flop.
Comments?
To review: I had KQo in SB. Bad player on my left. Very Good Player (VGP) on the button on my right. He raises to 10 preflop, I raise to 15. Its called around. Maybe 5-6 players see the flop.
Flop is Q-xh-xh (two small hearts). I bet 5. Called around to VGP who raises to 10. I raise to 15 (questionable?). Bad player on my left calls, everyone else drops out to the button who caps at 20. I call, player on my left calls.
Turn is a blank. I check, player on left checks, VGP checks(!)
River is the third heart. He bets, I fold, player on my left calls (but mucks his hand when he is showed the nut flush--Ah4h).
This scenario certainly makes more sense. Your reraise btf only makes sense if you thought there was a chance that the player in between might fold. If not, you should just call and go to war on the flop.
I would have preferred that you check-raise the flop. That would be more likely to push out CS. Then VGP is not getting as good a price on the flush draw.
You should have paid off on the river. After the turn and river are checked, the button might bet with JJ or another hand that can't beat yours.
Sorry 3Bet but I have to disagree about paying off on the river. I'll do it against one opponent because one opponent may have been playing a hand badly or have been trying to bluff me out. But two opponents? When I'm 99% likely to be 2nd or 3rd best? Especially after recognizing that someone's pulled a play on me? That's a bet I routinely save for the next time.
Aaron
Please read Theory of Poker.
Pre-flop you have a clear fold holding King-Queen offsuit when it is raised ahead of you. A decent player is supposed to have AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK, or AQ when he comes in with a raise in early position and your hand will be badly dominated. Three betting is very bad because you are dumping a lot of money in a situation where you usually have very much the worst of it. On the flop, you are over playing your hand again by 3 betting. You have top pair/excellent kicker but the pre-flop raiser is now raising ahead of you on a Queen high flop. This is supposed to mean AA,KK,QQ, or AQ. You don't have enough outs to even call in some cases much less 3 bet. The VGP checking the turn is bizarre. He must have something like AhKh. Having already over played your hand, I agree with your check since you might even be beat the calling station. Your fold on the river is right when the flush card comes. Either the VGP or the CS should have a flush here.
The VGP is not very good at all. Ace-shit suited is not a raising hand from early position pre-flop in a full tabled limit hold-em game. It is a marginal limping hand from early position if the game is passive. His cap on the flop is justified because any Heart gives him the nuts and any Deuce gives a straight. Furthermore, an Ace could be an out. With two cards to come he is correct in pounding the pot with all these outs and two opponents.
Sorry Jim B., this whole thread is my fault.
Dave is posting a hand that I played in 5-10 that I brought to his attention.
But I forgot to mention to him that VGP was on the BUTTON.
I hope you read my reply to his post and can make some comments.
I don't like your pre-flop reraise here, that is what stands out the most about this hand. I would fold if he was in fact a VGP. KQs is on the lower limit of pre-flop raising hands, so if my opponent has the same raising standards as me, I should probably fold this hand. See the controversial essay in John Feeney's book called "do you pass the AQ test?". Despite the fact that this essay has caused lots of heated debate on this forum, I think the point he makes there is applicable to this hand even more so than to AQ.
Your flop play is OK, and VGPs play is not really as bad as you might think. He is 1.86:1 against making his flush by the river, and he has two callers plus the pre-flop $$. I wouldn't have made his pre-flop raise though, are you sure he really is a VGP?
On the turn why did you give everyone a free card?
Then on the river you folded a rather large pot to one more bet. Despite the action, I think I would have called the river if I were you.
dave in cali
With no preflop raises and forgetting any flush possibilities say you are holding a 98 and the flop comes QQ9 and another player bets. What is the best play? Call,Raise,Fold? Am I drawing dead if the 9 comes since it could be giving them the boat?
You did not flop two pair. you flopped bottom pair, mediocre kicker. An opponent with a Q has you beat. What if the flop were KQ9. QQ9 is only better because you don't have to worry about the K. Also you are beat by any pocket pair higher than nines. Check and fold unless you think they are bluffing or have garbage or a pocket pair less than nine.
Also remember that any player with a 9 and another card higher than 8 also has you beat. Any opponent with two cards T or higher has 6 outs and two cards to beat you. Conclusion: Bet/Raise if you can win it here (paired boards are scary) or check/fold and fight another day. If your opponents are any two cards can win types and passive, check, and check the turn, then bet the river if the pot odds are adequate for the probability that you think you are best.
if ur oppoents are stupid and maniacs, check and call.
if they're tight and knowledgable, fold.
In general you should fold especially if there are players to act behind you. If the bettor has a Queen you are practically drawing dead. If the bettor has a Nine his kicker is probably better than yours and you will have to be extremely lucky to even split the pot. He could have something like TT or JJ and have a better hand. In those cases where your hand happens to be good you could be easily overtaken if he is betting a draw like Jack-Ten. Finally, the presence of other players makes folding here almost always right because you could call now and get raised later plus with more players it will be harder for your hand to stand up.
I'm sure you would agree that folding would be a bad play if only you and your opponent saw the flop and your opponent was not a weak player. This happens a lot in the blinds.
In fact, this is almost an automatic flop bet for me if I'm first to act in a short handed pot where no one has shown any pre-flop strength.
Just trying to cover all the bases since Shawn didn't specify how many players are in and their positions. Remember that next time Shawn! ;^)
CV
Yes, I agree that if it is heads-up, especially against a tricky player or even just a decent player than I believe having any piece of the board would merit a call here. However, against an LOL (Little Old Lady) or a TOM (Tight Old Man) I would still fold since I know LOLs and TOMs would not bet here without a better hand.
I like al this advise. What would you do, then, if you flop top pair witha lower pair on the board? Lets say the same 9-8 but the flop is 9-5-5 instead.
What about if it is a 9-A (top-top, but with a trip poss.)?
I think, either way, you're stuck in to the end, and the better your kicker, the more aggressive you can be.
Thoughts?
Yes, the bigger the kicker the more aggressive you can be. With Ace-Nine I would raise if bet into despite the small pair on board.
If I am dealt three tens in my first three cards, and then someone pairs his door card, higher then tens, like kings, and the case ten is out, what do I do? fold or call all the way? and, I don't know anybody at the table.
I would need to know the following, in order to be of any help at all -
1. What was the betting like on third street...
2. What stakes and how high is the ante...
3. What other cards are out ( or were folded )...
4. How many players are still in the hand; actually, this is really part of ? #1...
- I suggest you contact me privately; I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here, but this ? doesn't belong on the "low-limit hold'em" forum.
Mason should be along any minute to lay into you regarding this.
If I don't hear back from you and you want a short answer - call most of the time if you're heads-up; call almost all of the time if you have at least one other opponent; call 99% of the time if you have two or more OTHER opponents.
J-D
I posted a similar situation on the Other Poker Games forum. Check it out for some answers.
Time to post a hand again..ok, let's take an AKs hand: I get AdKd in late position and raise 4 limpers. BB calls, everyone else calls too.
The flop sucks: 2h4h8c
But everyone checks to me. Now they may just be "checking to the raiser" or this flop hit nobody. Anyway, I bet here. Is that wrong??
3 call, and the turn is a blank (for me that is): a 6s.
Now there is a bet and a raise, and I fold. I still think that's correct, although in the end it turned out the original bettor won with a pair of 6s while the raiser was semi-bluffing a str8 draw.
Comments appreciated!
I think you played it well. Always remeber that a-ks is still a drawing hand and probably going to need some help at some point. I think the fold was good. I would have bet it when it was checked to me on the flop depending on my read on the table. It's unlikely that a bet will bet all six to drop but if you can get 3-4 out and clear the rest on the turn, it is a good move. With that flop i am thinking small to mid pair or a draw from my opponents. Based on your knowledge of them and whether or not they will call three bets with a holding like that should guide whether you bet the turn and river imho...
With 5 opponents checking to you (four limpers plus the big blind) you should not bet the flop with slick when it has missed you completely. Simply take your free card. The reason is because with this many opponents you are too unlikely to win the pot outright. Make it one or two opponents instead of five, then betting would be correct.
But what about the possibility that I actually still have the best hand?
With this many opponents the possibility of you having the best hand is too remote and with a two flush out there it will be harder for you to get someone off the hand.
IF AKs is a drawing hand against 5 opponents, (I assume it's a power hand against 1 or 2 opponents), wouldn't it be better to call then to raise with it? Just wondering what thinking is on this, thanks!
There are two reasons to raise on the flop. One, to get people off of 2nd or 3rd pair with an A or K for a kicker. And two, to get a free card on the turn.
Steven-
While you may have the best hand, it's not going to be an easy hand to play if the turn brings another blank. Think of a AK that misses as the same as pocket 2's that miss-- both are probably the best, but it doesn't mean much since you can't bet either hand for value and you'll have to give it up if any of your opponents start to play back at you.
Still, you can constuct an argument for betting if your plan is to check the turn if you don't improve. It only costs you 1sb in a 10 sb pot, so there's something to trying to see the river as cheaply as possible... but you have to be fairly sure nobody's going to check-raise, and you have to be prepared to check the turn (unless perhaps and 8 falls).
Jim and GD
Case closed, I guess. This one is easier than electing a president.
However, nevertheless, would you call a flop bet? In particular, if an early position player bets this flop and it's called in a few places, do you think
1) you are already beaten anyway + there are many draws, so fold, or
2) you have 6 outs and sufficient odds to call.
Similarly, if a late position player bets, do you
a) fold because it could get reraised plus you probably are already beaten anyway + there are many draws
b) call because you have 4 outs (not counting A,K of hearts) sufficient odds to call.
c) raise to get draws out and get heads-up against a hand you either have beat (maybe the bettor is betting a draw, or overcards) or have either 3 or 4 outs against (either discounting hearts again, or discounting the A or K the bettor holds with his paired 2,4, or 8)
Well, just by writing this I found the answers:
1) and a)
Amazing how weak the other choices look when you think about them for 3 minutes.
Steven, just thinking out loud
It now gets more problematic. If someone bets and there are several callers you appear to be getting the right odds to take off a card here with your 6 outs but will you win 100% of the time when you hit one of your outs? Suppose the turn is the Ah or the Kh giving you top pair/top kicker but someone else a Heart flush? Even if these cards don't give someone a Heart flush they create redraws to a Heart flush at the river even when your hand is good. Suppose the turn is a non-Heart Ace or King? Someone on a Heart flush draw still has shots at you at the river plus an Ace or a King on the turn could give someone a second pair since many players limp in with hands containing an Ace or a King. If they hang around and call a flop bet having a pair then when an Ace or King falls they have two pair.
Bottom line is that I think you should fold if the flop gets bet.
Right, that's what I started thinking during my monologue! Thanks Jim.
Steven,
You might want to read the section in HPFAP21C in which it explains why you would rather have KQ than AK in this situation. It is something to think about. I'd give thier answer but you should try to guess it if you don't know already.
Paul Talbot
PS. pp58-61 in the semi-bluffing section.
Yes, I read it! As you can see from my monologue I did figure out that an Ace (or even K) appearing may give the bettor two pair (see c)
I say bet the flop. Then if its checked to you on the turn take the free card. If its bet into you on the turn, dump. Its not that you think your hand is best at this point, because against 4 or 5 opponents the chance of that is basically none. Its so that you can get a free card on the turn.
The reason I bet the bet the flop alot is because people think you will automatically bet the turn, so they can wait until the turn to check-raise you with their really good hands. If they check-raise the flop it usually means top pair, so you can USUALLY call the flop check-raise to see if you can hit your 6 outer.
With 2 opponents I will bet the flop and turn if the board is ragged. Then check down the river to see if my AK is good.
when you raise BTF with AKs, you are indicating that you have a good hand to the other players. One advantage of this is that you may get checked to on the flop, thus allowing you the option of taking a free card. Keep this in mind.
Then the flop comes and you miss completely. You have only two overcards, and there is a two flush on board that you have none of, and one or more possible str8 draws. Plus there are a whole bunch of loose players who limped BTF, then called your raise, making the pot rather large. So this situation is not one in which you are likely to steal the pot if you bet on the flop. This takes away one of your reasons for betting: you may win the pot right now. But all is not lost here, you have been given the opportunity to take advantage of one of the possible outcomes of your pre-flop raise: you may get checked to and be given an opportunity for a free card. Take it. You have nothing but two overcards, and two of your outs complete a flush, someone might be playing Ax or Kx and hit two pair when you hit one pair, plus even if you hit there are still straight draws and a flush draw to redraw against you. And with this many players, someone is going to be drawing....
But since you did bet the flop, now the turn comes. I hope you were going to check if it got checked to you again! At least you got an opportunity to get out even if it was a bit late.
Moral of the story: sometimes when the flop misses you completely, you should just give up on your big slick.
Same goes for any decent pre-flop hand that misses completely. Don't just bet because everyone expects you to bet. And if you are in early position, it is also not REQUIRED that you bet when you completely miss the flop. Example:
You raise UTG with AdKh. Five players see the flop despite your raise. Flop is 9s Js 7c. Check and fold. Same thing would be true if you were the button and everyone checked to you.
There is a thread on this subject started by myself from about a week ago entitled "just fold it!".
Dave in Cali
Dave, That's what I think too now (see my monologue). Thanks!
Hi
I am moving to hawaii in january and i was wondering if they have casinos / pokerrooms in HAWAII???? anyone??
huh...
I can fit in a small briefcase, can you bring me along?
ThePrince
ps: dunno about casinos there...
Hawaii is one of two states in the union (the other is Utah) where there is NO form of legal gambling allowed, not even church bingo. Social poker games was finally legalized about 10 years ago, after years of trying to get it passed through the legislature. There are plenty of illegal casino type games, poker, cock fighting, etc. However, I wouldn't recommend playing in these, as somehow, the customer never wins. (Could there be cheating by the house? Does a bear shit in the woods?)
Papio
The best hands are the ones you don't play: A Warning.
Sitting in the small blind at a standard 5-10 game in AC, I look down to find K9o. Even though it's one of my big "Better not play that" hands, I was doing well and thought I'd at least call the rest of the bet with it. It gets raised before it gets back to me so I release the hand.
The flop comes QJT as I almost leap out of my chair. Betting, raising, calling as I sit there muttering to myself. The turn is a blank and the river is another 10. More betting and raising until the preflop raiser turns over his AK and the two other callers turn over JT to split the pot. Whew.
There you go...
Game, set and match for tight play...
ThePrince
It´s often the small mistake that brings us into big trouble. Keep up the good play.
Hi all...
Planet Poker hand. I have Ad2d on the button.
Table is fairly loose usually 5 players see the flop.
3 callers to me, I call, Sb calls, BB checks.
We see the flop 6 handed. 6 SB in the pot.
Flop came Kc 3c 5c. It is checked around.
Turn is 4s.
I turned a str8, which is not the nut str8 and certainly not the nut.
SB bets, 3 calls. I call. (Did I lose bets here?)
River is a blank. Checked to me, I bet, get 2 callers and win the pot.
The bet on the turn looked to me as a busted check-raise. Am I giving too much credit to my opponents?
This is why I only called. When checked to me on the river, I had to bet it tho.
Should I have raised the turn? Was it a good bet on the river ?
Of course someone had me beat on the flop and for sure I'm folding to a bet. But hey poker is not for sissies or how ever it is spelled... Someone should have bet the flop. Anyway...
Comments please...
ThePrince
I don't think you have any problems here. When it is checked around on the flop, either no one has anything and wants to see if anyone bets so they can drop their hands, or they are going for a checkraise. Which of the two it was could only be answered by knowing more about the SB's play.
When the bet then comes on the turn, you may very well be justified in raising it, to charge all those people chasing their single clubs. As well, this may be a raise or fold situation; if you think the clubs are out there, you are dead, so fold. If you think the clubs are not out there, you should be pumping it as you have the best hand. The call seems kind of (to use your words) sissy-like.
When checked to you on the river, all those poor single clubs have not hit, and you are completely justified in betting it.
I am somewhat unsure as to how well this hand was played; the play as a whole seems very indecisive from everyone. SB tried to see what was happening on the turn, and received no useful information. My only thought is that your play on the turn is too wimpy; raise it or fold it.
David
I agree with you David.
I had no info on the SB.
I should have pumped it on the turn. I probably would have gained 3-4 extra BB.
Thanks
ThePrince
While it is possible someone could be slow playing a Club flush, I would have raised on the turn here with your hand. No one bet the flop and one guy leads on the turn and gets callers but no raisers. I think there is too good of a chance your hand is good. Of course if a Club shows up at the river your hand is instantly dead but this is unlikely. Your river bet is correct when a blank shows up and everyone checks.
I'm a BJ player crossing over to Texas hold'm. I'm obsessed with Hold'm (where has this been all my life) and practice, read constantly. I play on-line at pokerroom.com (6-12 tables) and have had winning sessions there constantly (which makes me very leary on their skill level).
I read, read, read, and have ordered Wilsons Hold'm software (non tourny version).
My question is, will I get totally slammed to the board when I walk into a card room for the first time?
2-4 tables probebly. Expect a $250 buy-in, tight aggressive play. Can I expect loose/aggressive players that "think" they know Hold'm inside out?
Right now, fear of the unknown is my worry. I expect to have another 24,000 hands under my belt by the time I'm ready to go "live".
Opinions?
i came recently from a 21 card counting background as well so i could relate to your post.
i went to pokerroom.com and it looks like it's only play money. you are wasting your time playing these games. you are playing against dumb high school kids and the like if you are playing for play money. you are probably learning bad habits that will be hard to break and losing play in a real money game (online or otherwise). sorry to say that since you are doing well at a play money game means absolutely nothing. get as far away from play money as possible if youre serious about getting good at hold em.
i would recommend you download paradise, planet, and/or highlands and carefully start playing the low limit full table hold em games there. dont go beyond 2-4 at paradise--the games can be very tough there. as for live games, why bother? you are just as well off playing the online games where you wont give off tells and make stupid mistakes under pressure. be sure you can control yourself and avoid e-tilt however or you will burn through your bankroll very quickly online. that said, ive played live low limit in vegas and found it easy having had many online hours under my belt.
good luck.
I don't think I'm picking upi many bad habits except being totally bewildered at people keeping unsuited 7-2 and needing the clutch 7 to win with a pair of 7's.
I play to many hands (about 20%) and want to cut that down but it seems sooner or later I have 5 people at the table.
I'm getting Wilson Turbo hold'm so that will help with better opponets which is what I need.
As for tells (LOL). I have already found that having a max bet and splitting 8's and then doubling both is NOTHING compared to getting a suited AK with a $12 bet ong the table. Talk about blood pressure! Pass the Butyl Nitrate! :-)
Play money isn´t the same as real money of course, but it´s still very useful for experimenting (like always raising/betting to see things from the eyes of a maniac for example) and learning the basic things such as counting the money or doing some odds vs outs calculations.
I feel that even though it IS play money I'm learning what NOT to do. There have been many times that I have NOT folded and cursed myself for having a bad hand staring at me and HOPING for the golden card.
DAA - I know better but I had to prove it to myself.
I've found Hold'm one of the most fascinating games I've ever played. So easy to play, so hard to play correctly.
I'm obsessed with learning and one of many books next to me at all times.
Just don´t become too obsessed, ok? There are many other things in life than hold´em, and taking things to extremes is NEVER a good idea.
being the ripe ol age of 46, I've come to realize this is how I operate. Be it wine, blackjack, tropical fish, trains or Hold'm once I latch on to something I become immearsed/obsessed with it until I feel I completely understand it as much as a person can without totally forgetting other things. It becomes a challange. I think my brain just needs to be working at something.
My wife is my one obsession that I'll never forget and I have never ever thought getting married was the wrong thing to do (espicially since she is very good cover at a BJ table). :-)
.
I have some comments under a post on the beginners forum titled “Beginning $3-6” that may interest you. Just replace stop playing in your friendly game with stop playing free online games. If you follow these steps you will not get slammed. You may not win right away, but certainly have a very good fighting chance.
I'm probably about a month ahead of you, coming from a similar background (except the online stuff -- my early experience came from home games at a variety of levels). When I got up the nerve to sit down at the 3-6 live table, I found the same attributes that served me well in BJ also helped me at Hold'em; primarily patience and discipline. I get paid by the players I can beat and learn from those I can't. I'm showing a satisfactory gain at this level after logging 112 hours, but I still consider it part of my education. Good luck.
I'm been told (not trying to argue) that the low-limit river boat play here in the Midwest is a pretty dumb game at times. Very loose/aggressive. I've never watched (a few hours away) but if people play poker like that play BJ . . . . . . . . .
I've never played poker offshore and frankly never even thought they offered it. hmmmmmm!
AS for pokerroom.com I have noticed the higher the table the better the player. Perhaps I'll pump it up a notch. I DO understand fully about friendly games and bad habits.
thanks!
You have already put more thought into it than most of the people you'll play against. I do have a couple of thoughts:
1) For the first session or two the mechanical aspects of it will require some thought. Take as much time as you need to get it right and don't worry about slowing the game down to think or ask questions. If anything, it will paint you as a novice with far less understanding than you really have.
2) Don't fold when you have the blinds posted already. Seems silly now, but I did that once or twice the first time I played, mucking hands and forgetting I already had my blind posted. [My home game experience was all ante rather than blinds].
3) Protect your hand with a coin or token. Uncovered cards are subject to being inadvertently mucked.
4) Don't "splash" the pot by tossing chips in -- push them out in front of you so the dealer can tell how much you bet.
5) Don't string bet. Best to announce your raise verbally while putting it in. At fixed limit games this is easy, because the announcement of "raise" necessarily means a certain amount.
6) If possible, get a seat directly across from the dealer (day seat 4, 5 or 6). Especially in the beginning, it was helpful to me to have the action right in front of me, rather than being on one of the corners.
7) Disregard the commentary. The first time you draw out on someone or they suffer a "bad beat," they will let you know how badly you played. This is especially true if you are an obvious newcomer. Just remember, anybody dumb enough to educate you about your "mistakes" can't be too bright to start with.
8) Don't overcomplicate it. [Easy to say after 7 previous thoughts, eh?] In the beginning, I tended to overthink hands and attribute a higher level of play to my opponents than was warranted. I also tended to give my opponents credit for having the best possible hand every time. Play straightforward solid poker and avoid the tricky stuff.
Good Luck!
The only thing I might add is to emphasize not to worry how you look. Go ahead and ask quetions - don't worry slowing down the game. This will only enhance your win-rate in the beiginning (assuming you're lucky enough to sit with opposition that will take the time to try and be observant - not likely in 2-4). The perfect scenario would be to perfectly look like a novice, act like a novice, but make good decisions.
Oh, one other thing. Never show your cards unless you have to. When you get pocket K's cracked don't show everyone to vindicate yourself - it's far better for your pocket book to look like a fish!
-Michael
First - thanks for the advice - great stuff.
Second - I went to paradise to see what that was about and bought in for $50 to play 0.50-1 games. Micro stakes but ya have to start somewhere.
Games is MUCH MUCH different then with play money and in some aspects easier as I normally didn't have to worry about some guy getting a clutch unsuited 6 to win the pot. Seems most people that play "net" REAL money have read a book on the game.
Game much tighter then I was ready for and it took a little time to get a feel for the game. After 40 hands and losing to KKKK and a nut flush I took a break to read up on shorthanded and tight/passive games (on of the luxuries of being at home).
The whole trick as I see it is milking the pot. It will not normally grow by itself and needs attention. Slam it at times and cuddle it at others. You really have to pay attention to what the other players are thinking.
Went back to the table, played another hour and closed up with 82.50 in the bank. BEGINNERS LUCK I'D SAY!!. ----------------------------------- The point I want to make to all the newbies is that net Play money and net Real monney ARE in fact a different game. I guess these guys know what they are talking about LOL.
Do not play low-limit tight passive games. It is way too difficult to overcome the rake.
Perhaps when I said passive I was comparing it to PLAY money. I compared all of the pots and most of the time a pot was 5.5BB's. In the Micro limit games it was 9BB's.
Now compared to the PLAY money where a pot can average 25BB's it's passive. OR at least passive to me!!!
The average Pot in 0.50-1 was about $9. ou guys might laugh at playing that low but . . .ya gotta start somewhere.
I was playing a 3-6 game on the weekend and had pocket aces UTG. I raise it to 6 and it gets reraised in mid position to 9. Button cold calls 9, I cap at 12, and 4 see the flop of J-6-6 rainbow.
I figure that the best anyone has is A-J for that flop, so I bet out. 2 callers, button raises, I reraise, and all call.
Turn is a blank (lower than jack), no flush possible. I bet, 2 folds, button calls.
River is a blank (lower than jack), I bet, button calls.
I show my hand, he expresses the opinion "What are you doing betting it that way??" and shows 6-3 of diamonds. He then chastises me for playing too aggressively. I simply responded "I didn't put you on a 6" by which I meant "I didn't think you were stupid enough to call 9 cold with a 6 in your hand." Over the course of the night, the two of us traded barbs about the hand.
I'm curious: did I overplay it?
David
i think you played it well. the button is a moron. your reraise on the flop probably saved you money cause it kept him from raising on the turn or the river. so he was angry that he didnt make more off the best hand. you slowed him down for half a bb.
as far as trading barbs all night, it's probably best to avoid that sort of distraction. if he brought it up again i would look him straight in the eye and say "why dont you shut up?" or something similarly aggresive. if he didnt i would probably leave the table. however, you were smart to resist the temptation to "teach" him what he did wrong, that is always a bad move.
I think you played fine. Someone stupid enough to call 3 bets cold with Six-Trey suited should not be commenting on how anyone else plays their cards. I would have told him that I mistakenly thought he knew how to play and put him on a decent hand like Ace-Jack suited.
I think you played it fine.
The other player is a moron for playing 3-6 suited for a raise, even more for a reraise. Let's call him a fish.
I would have probably played it the same way maybe not the reraise on the flop. That's player dependant.
I would have bet on the turn and maybe (depending on the player) folded to a raise. I think fishy here is a really moron for NOT raising you on the turn. What in hell could he think you could have raised with UTG pre-flop that had a 6 in it. It probably didn't cross his mind to think of what you had. The only hand IMO you could have that he can't beat is JJ. That's not a good reason to play defensively on the turn. He should have raised.
So maybe the reraising part on the flop. It depends...
For the rest, no problem with me.
ThePrince
Sounds like a typical Baccarat-type coldcall, Dave. Be happy that this guy didn't pop it on the turn or the river. All you could have that he can't beat is JJ. I would have certainly raised you. Of course, I wouldn't have cold-called 3 bets with 6-3, either.
Tough beat, but I think you should be overjoyed to be playing in games where these types of calls are commonplace. I should know; I've seen exactly this action at Baccarat for over three years. Next hand, please.
Thanks everyone; I was a little apprehensive because this guy usually plays higher limits (pot limit) and I tend to respect what those players say since they are playing for bigger money. He said he was worried about being outkicked so thats why he didn't raise the turn or river...I had thought I might have a little more respect than that I would have a 6 in that situation. Oh well. He was trying to espouse his theory of "everyone raises, so all the big cards are gone, so low cards are good". I had heard that before and knew it was thought to be baloney, so I was quite surprised. My respect for this player went down quite a bit that night, but oddly, he seemed to have my number all night.
I also admit that it didn't make me unhappy when he moved up to the no limit 5 card stud game and got absolutely killed. When he came back to 3-6, he complained that he had "run into the hottest seat in the world". I was amazed that I managed to refrain from commenting.
David
I can see why he was fearful of being out kicked with only a 3. You should have told him that he could improved his game by playing 9-6 and 10-6. His kicker will be so much better. Looks like you will make a lot of money for this player and learn a lot for him-just do the reverse of what he does. Good luck.
I'll tell you, that is exactly how I'd have played the hand, you can't expect some goofball to cold call three bets with that kind of a hand, and if that is how he plays (any two cards can win) then you've got the best of it even if he does draw out every now and then.
you played fine. next time a weak player gets on your case you might try this one..."sorry, I'm just learning how to play. I'd welcome any hints you have about playing better." Homour loosens up the table. spitball
I might not have re-raised the flop. When I see a pair flop on the board in a 3-6 game, and a lot of players are in the hand, I figure someone has the third card to match the pair, regardless of the previous betting. When the flop gets raised, I think it is the 6 rather than a J raising because the holder of a J would be afraid of that 6 out there.
Sometimes my sixth sense (probably a subconcious read) tells me three 6's are out there. I slow way down. Sometimes that is a mistake. I just think in the long run in this situation, caution has been the best approach. I would rather win a little smaller pot than give away a lot of chips.
Over the weekend I was playing in a 2-6 spread and I was the BB with pocket queens. Got 5 limpers and bet 4 to make it 6 all together. Unfourtunatly I had such respect at that point 3 limpers folded which made the game 3 handed. flop came 9d Kc 2d and I bet out six, two callers, on the turn my princess showed up,only in the wrong dress, Qd. I checked, hoping for a check raise if there was timid betting, the player on my left bet out 6 and was raised another 6, as the action came to me the origional better acted out of turn and threw away his cards. So I cold called a 12 dollar bet. The river came as a 2s giving me Queens full, and the nut flush immediatly left the table, I'd appreciate and comments on how I played this.
loose passive game. I have Ks6d in BB. five limp, SB calls, I check. Flop is 3c 6c 8h, I check, next two check, a bet, two calls, SB folds. Should I fold, call, or raise? spitball
spitball:
As BB, I would have folded Ks6d. Right after the flop, you may have the best hand but sixes probably won't win with three other loose players hanging around.
I would fold.
(n/t)
There are now 10 small bets in the pot and it costs you one small bet to see the turn. Assuming someone has an Eight, you will need a Six or a King to improve your hand. This is 5 outs. Five outs is about 8:1 against so you appear to have an overlay here. The problem is that there is a two flush on board so the Kc may give someone a Club flush with this many opponents. This would then reduce your outs to about 4. Four outs is about an 11:1 shot so the odds are not there. The other problem with the two flush is that even if the Kc does not give someone a flush it gives anyone with a singleton Club a flush draw which can beat your two pair so you will not win 100% of the time even when the Kc does not give someone a flush right away. Bottom line is that I think it is close between calling and folding but I think I would fold here.
I did fold and my thinking did include the flush draw. Had I called I would have won a HUGE pot. Oh well. thanks for the post - I'll fold again in the same situation. spitball
hi
iwas in florida thsi summer and i dont htink poker was allowed there either.. but they had cruises into international waters.... is this possible in hawaii as well.. DESPERATE TO PLAY POKER!!!
Hi, I'm planning my first visit to a casino and even if I think I'm a fair player (I read a lot and play home games regularly)I'm not quite sure I have enough of a bankroll to start.
I know you can lose 250$ pretty fast at a 3/6 table if you don't catch good cards early but am I totally of the mark giving it a shot?
I know the game is loose, but I'don't know yet if it's passive-loose or aggressive-loose. I figured I would need a bigger bankroll if the game is aggressive-loose since the swings may be more important but how much more?
By the way what does "UTG" and "IMO" mean? I usually speak french so I sometimes have problems with those abbreviations.
Thanks David Saintonge
visit my french web site at : http://cafe.rapidus.net/dsainton
UTG means Under the Gun (the first position after the blinds), and IMO means In My Opinion.
As for your main question, though I'm sure there will be plenty of responses from those who don't think you should sit down with less than 300x (!) the big blind, I think $250 should be plenty for a normal 3-6 game. You probably wouldn't want to risk much more than that on the first time anyway. I usually sit down with around that for a 4-8 game. Of course, your mileage may vary, and if you get involved in a wild one with lots of pre-flop raising and reraising, you might find that $250 dwindling pretty quickly.
The 300 big bets (or more) that Cluck refers to is what your entire bankroll should be, if you are a winning player and you want to play out of that bankroll with a minimal chance of going broke. Ever.
If you are willing to risk the entire loss, then $250 is plenty to try out 3/6. You don't need to buy-in with the entire amount, either. Start with $100 and see how things go.
If the game is loose aggressive, and this is your first visit to a casino, my advice would be to change games, or wait a while for game conditions to change before sitting down.
Play ultra-conservatively until you start to get a feel for the flow of the game. At first it will seem to move much too fast to follow, but you will get used to it.
David
I am in the same boat David and I asked the same question about a local 2-4 game. I was told that if I play a good tight/aggressive $100 SHOULD get me through unless I have a horrable night.
good luck and e-mail me how it went. I'm curious, newbie to newbie
Yep, I realized my bankroll/tablestakes disconnect shortly after I posted, but was already offline. Please disregard.
there is a good chance that 250 will be enough. every once in a while I burn through 3 racks, but not too often. If you start to run bad just be patient. You can usually rebound in a 3-6 game.
Two to three racks is a decent session bankroll for a loose-aggresive 3-6. I'm not sure I'd wish to get any deeper in any 3-6. Good luck.
For a $3-$6 game, $250 is more than enough depending upon how long you will play. For a 9 hour session I would think $200 would be plenty.
For the meaning of various abbreviations used on this forum, click over to "abbreviations" under the Directory Forum on the left side of your screen.
250$ is more than enough for a SESSION of 3-6 (assuming no kill). It is not enough for a bankroll though. I typically sit at 3-6 with about 120 - 150$ on the table, with about the same amount in reserve should I need it. If the game is loose passive you will have to catch pretty bad, or play pretty bad in order to lose 250$. If the game is loose aggressive, you could go through this much $$ much faster.
also keep in mind that your home game experience will probably not help you that much in a casino game. the players may be bad but they are usually much better than an average home game opponent.
dave in cali
5-10 kill hand, so we're playing at 10-20. I'm off the button with the kill and act in normal order. Two players limp, and I call. Button makes it 20. Both players call, so I call with pocket 55's. Flop: Jd8d5s. First limper bets, second raises, I call with my set, and the button makes it thirty. First limper caps. We all call. Question: How would you have played this hand? Note: first limper is a fairly solid player, but the other players are not.
Thanks,
John
I think I'd either fold or raise when the second limper raises. Because you say the first limper is fairly solid but the other two players appear weak - I'd probably raise just to try to gain some more information. I'll likely fold to another raise thinking I'm badly dominated by a better set.
But the way you played it, I would fold for sure when it's two bets back to you - they're showing too much strength and there are too many ways for you to lose - even if you improve to a full house. I save my chips and wait for a better hand. If you would have taken it, then you have more information about how they play.
-Michael
wow, there is NO way you want to fold your set. decent raises on the flop couldve been made by two pair, a four flush, an overpair, even top pair/great kicker. that's what the flop is for--raising and trying to get out the posers, trying to get it heads up. you have a very well disguised set at this point. it looks to the observant player like you are on a diamond flush draw and you were trapped betweem rerasisers (the installment plan). the chances your set is beat at this exact point are very slim--there are only 6 combinations of pocket hands that could have you beat. very unlikely.
you do need to proceed with caution at this point, particularly if a diamond or straight card fall. but you should be raising and reraising otherwise. do NOT fold this hand. check and call if a diamond comes, that's about as weak as youd want to get.
DF is correct here. There is almost no way I lay down a set of 5's. I'm going to the river almost no matter what, someone's just going to have to show me a better hand. I don't know how the rest of the hand turned out, but you should have been more aggressive with your set. If you are always going to fear oversets whenever there is action, then I would suggest not calling with small/med. pocket pairs in the first place.
Folding a set here is amazingly weak. If your going to fold your set when its 3 bets to you, then you shouldnt be playing any pairs below JJ.
When UTG caps it, my eyes would be lighting up. Everybody else bet it for you, so you still have a hidden set and everybody thinks your on a draw. I would get into a raising war on the turn, unless the 3rd diamond hits.
If you lose to another set, oh well. But there aint no way in hell I aint seeing the river with this hand. If the 4th diamond shows up, and there is a lot of action, then I would fold unless I had filled up.
I would have 3 bet the flop to make the players on a draw pay the maximum. You very likely have the best hand now (set over set are extremely rare).
On the turn if a blank shows, bet and raise and even reraise if you can. once again u must be sure that the people on their draws pay the maximum price.
if a dangerous card shows up, play it less agressively but dont even think of foldin... u have 10 outs to the river
the best scenario is that u make a full and they make their str8/flush. then you can enjoy your biggest pot of the night ... if u played it well :)
i love the fish
Charlie
It's hard to determine how to continue without knowing more about the players involved. If there were one or two rocks in the hand I would be a little bit concerned. It's still pretty hard to muck a set on the flop though. I would see what comes on the turn. If no diamond I would bet if checked to and raise if bet into. If you continue to get heavy heat then you might have a problem. If a diamond comes on the turn then you are in a pickle. probably muck but if you could see the river for one bet consider calling and pray for the board to pair. It seems unlikely that you would only have to call one bet though if a diamond did come. Hopefully you took down a giganto pot.
You might be beaten by a better set. But I think it's more likely that everyone is jamming the pot with their draws. Sometimes people just go into lotto mode in those Foxwoods kill pots. If this turns out to be set over set, or set over set over set, then you have my sympathy.
I would have raised the flop and I would have bet or raised the turn if a str8 or flush card didn't come.
David
I forgot who said it but there's an old saying that if you lose with a set and didn't lose a lot of chips, you played it wrong.
Set over set happens, but not enough that you should assume one and fold. If it happens, oh well, most of the time in that situation all you want to do is get the most money in the pot while the draws are still there.
I can think of a lot more hands that would lead to the play you describe than 88 and JJ so I would keep playing. For example, I would put someone on T9d. This hand can make a lot of money in the long run by getting as much money in the pot as possible with 15 outs. The other end of the whipsaw could simply have an overpair to three bet.
Paul Talbot
John, I don't know you, but can we have a word?
First off, you DO NOT THROW AWAY A SET HERE!!! If the building were on fire, you'd just have to pour a couple of drinks over your head and sweat it out, but under no conditions should those pocket fives leave your hands on this flop.
As to how should you play this flop? The words BET, RAISE and RE-RAISE come to mind. You just keep putting as many chips as possible into the pot at every opportunity. The exception is if it's the player on your left who is showing the strength. Then maybe you should just call.... Then RAISE the turn if a blank comes!
There will be times you lose to a bigger set. Them's the breaks. But one pre-flop raise does not have to equal pocket jacks or eights. Maybe two pair or a straight draw, but you currently beat those hands. I have layed down sets before and will again, but it's almost always on the river, and I'm darn sure of my opponents and read of the situation. Flopping sets is a huge money maker. You just can't afford to go throwing 'em away cuz you MIGHT be beat.
I literally had to get out of bed and turn my computer back on to clarify this since it was gnawing at me and I didn't want to leave wrong info.
Due to the lateness of the hour for me, I typed "unless it's the player on your right showing strength...". This should've been "player on your left showing strength". Also, I didn't mean to imply you should not raise a single bet to you. After you've raised once and he's re-raised, you can now choose to just call (but it still might be better to re-raise again), and pop the turn. Sorry.
You can't fold here. There are too many possible overpairs and draws that could account for all the betting, particularly since so many people wait for the turn to pull the trigger with a set (like you were going to). And the pot is huge. So keep it slow but hang in there.
When the action gets to you then you should re-raise. You must play sets very fast in jammed pots like this. You usually have the best hand and you usually have the best draw as well thereby giving you the best of both worlds. I would continue to play it aggressively even if a third Diamond came on the turn as long as I had 3 or more opponents. To even consider folding is a sacrilege. There is a cliche about sets. If you flop a set and lose if you don't lose a lot then you didn't play it right.
I would continue to play it aggressively even if a third Diamond came on the turn as long as I had 3 or more opponents.
Could you elaborate on this? I understand that you want to charge a single diamond for their draw, but I feel that you mean more than this and I'm missing it. Why 3 or more opponents? If I did the math right, you need 3.6:1 for immediate odds of hitting your full house if noone holds any of your outs (but isn't it likely someone does?).
David
Assuming someone makes a flush on the turn, you still have 10 outs to a full house from 46 unseen cards so you are about 3.6:1 against making your full house. Now if you have 3 or more opponents than with each dollar you raise you pull into the pot at least another $3 so you are getting almost the right price for raising here. Now couple this with the fact that there will be a small percentage of the time when your hand will be best anyway because no one happens to have a flush and I believe that with 3 or more opponents raising would be okay.
Cliches can get you into trouble. I've flopped too many sets in the last few months where I knew immediately that I was beat. While I could see playing his small set fast against the board in John's post, there are some situations where the opponent's play is so obvious that you are beat that slowing down is appropriate. For example, I would want 4 or more opponents to play a set fast when I knew my opponent had flopped or turned a flush.
Yes, you are right. Actually the cliche has more to do with the set over set phenomneon where you have the underset. In situations where it is obvious that someone's flush has arrived you should slow down in most cases.
Nobody's with me on this one? John states the first limper is fairly solid.
The first limper calls a raise BTF and then 4 bets the flop. With the aggression he's showing on the flop he surely would have 3-bet BTF if he had a pocket pair greater than J's. On the flop if he's drawing to either a flush or a str8 he wouldn't 4-bet - he needs opponents to make the draw worth while. He's in the worst position and he caps the flop after he bets and it comes back to him raised and re-raised. So what does he have? Maybe J8s but I don't think so. I put him on an overset. And on top of that str8 and flush draws are likely from the other two opponents.
oh well - that's my .02
-Michael
As I suspected, the first limper flopped a set of 88's. Since I knew this player fairly well, calling his cap bet scared me. The button had pocket KK's, and the second limper T9o. The turn was the 4d, and, amazingly, everyone checked the turn. River brought the 7s, making the str8. However, I did have a few more outs: no one held a diamond except me.
I was planning to cap the betting myself, since I was about 95% sure the button would raise. The first limper beat me to it.
Thanks
Nobody's with me on this one? John states the first limper is fairly solid.
Can't you think of any other hands that a fairly solid player might cap with? I might cap with top two pair, depending on my opponents. I would cap with the nut flush draw with three opponents paying on the flop. A very aggressive player might cap with a lesser flush draw. It's a no-brainer with the straight-flush draw.
David
Top two pair is the only other hand I can think of that my solid opponent might have that he'd cap with on the flop - but I think it unlikely. There are 9 ways for him to have J9, but he called a raise BTF so I would lean toward him being suited - so the number of ways is somwhere between 3 and 9 (closer to 3 I think) that he could have top two. There are 6 ways he could have an overset.
If I believe I have a good read on him (playing with them a couple of hours) I either raise or fold. When it's two bets back to me and the solid player capped in worst position - I fold.
It's either weak or a good lay-down. To say you never lay down a set I believe is wrong. Consider a scenario where it's capped pre-flop with more than 3 opponents and I have T's. When the flop comes QJT suited I'm considering folding. If it's capped on the flop when it gets to me - depending on what I think of my oppoenents I may fold.
just my .02
Even if the flop comes QJT suited, you still have re-draws to a full house and you are only drawing dead against the straight flush. I think it would often be a mistake to drop here as well. But it would probably depend alot on the action and would always depend on your odds.
Remember a set is not just the best hand, it is often the best draw as well. It's a monster holding, even bottom set. It's just as good in loose games as it is in tight games for that reason.
I wouldn't say that you should never lay down a set before the river. But I think you would be better off never laying one down, than frequently folding them when you shouldn't.
As for why solid players might cap with draws, I refer you to the rammin' and jammin' articles on Izmet's site.
David
nobody is saying you NEVER fold a set.. it is obvious that with this particular hand at this particular point a fold would have been a negative expectation play.. assuming the capper in a low limit game has a bigger set is bad poker. the results dont change this.
All I play is low limit no fold'em hold'em. Somebody said on one of the thread a long time ago that "if you lose with a flopped set and don't lose a lot of money then you did not play it right". I agree with this and play sets fast and hard. Still hurts when they show you a 7-2 suited that they played all the way to the river to flush your set.
In contrast to the TT hand the other day, I would have raised on the flop and reraised if given the chance. I would have also raised on the turn once.
First, I apologize. I don’t remember all of the details because I wasn’t planning on posting this hand. However, after the decision below I would appreciate comments.
5/10 at the Taj Friday night. I am in early position with AhAc. I raise and we see the flop 4 or 5 handed. Flop is Axxs. I bet, MP calls, LP raises, I re-raise, MP calls, LP caps, Me and MP call. Turn xs. With the four flush on the board I check, MP bets, LP calls, I fold. Comments.
Folding on the turn is a mistake. You should certainly have called. You are easily getting sufficient odds to draw to a full house.
With alot of action, you can probably safely fold the river if you don't hit it.
David
I have to agree, you must call to see the river in that situation. If you hit the full house and are up against two flushes, you'll get a lot of action and this could be a big pot for you.
I agree, I will pay one bet to see the river here.
"Pair the board!!!"
You can not fold this hand; the pot odds you are getting are huge and you have many outs. You must look at the implied odds you are getting to draw (if in fact you are beaten, a big heart would have probably raised the turn). If you hit your hand, you will be paid off; one or two $10 bets should not scare you off a hand that could put you up for the week. If you miss your hand on the river, I would call for one bet and muck it for a lot of action.
There are at least 7 big bets in the pot at this time and you close the betting on the turn so I would call. You have 10 outs to improve to a GREAT hand, but you are almost certainly trailing now. I would still check-call the river if you don't improve but only if you close the betting (i.e. MP bets and LP calls). Otherwise, I chuck it because I don't think I'm going to win more than 10% of the time in this situation.
The pot odds show that I have an easy call here.
The only good news is that doing the incorrect play saved me $20. The river was another spade. I would have had to call the flush board. The MP took it with a higher spade in the hole. The LP flopped two pair, Ax.
Playing in Cripple Creek, CO. 2-5 hold'em with one $2 blind.
To set the stage, it is a friendly table and the three individuals at our end of the table were showing each other our cards for a while. I usually go along with this so the following isn't unusual. About showing our cards, it is done only if none of us are in the hand.
I have AQo on the button and everyone else folds. So I am happy to receive just the $2 blind and I raise to $7. The blind calls. That makes two small bets and two big bets in the pot for $14.
The flop comes Axx. Blind checks and I bet $5, the max bet. The blind then raises to $10. There is now $24 in the pot. I suspect a flopped set so I show my AQ before mucking it and recieved several comments on what a terrible laydown that was.
I feel my only mistake here was showing my hand. I should have just mucked it and then made something up when asked about my hand. It would have cost me $15 more to see the river.
Advice please and thanks;
Sherman
Showing your hand was a mistake. You might as well put a sign on you that says "shove me around." Let him think you were just stealing the blind.
Unless you had a *really* great read on your opponent (or saw his cards), I would not have given up so quickly on that hand.
I would have suspected a few things out of my opponent in that situation.
He might have defended his blind with Ax and hit two pair. He might also just have and A with a weak kicker and he put you on KK or QQ or just a blind steal.
For better or worse, I would have reraised on the flop to see where he was, but I think folding was probably better than calling.
Don't ever show anyone your hand even in a friendly game. Players will use this information to take pots away from you especially if they feel you will make big laydowns. With regard to laydowns, folding AQ when you flop top pair/excellent kicker and are checked raised in a heads-up situation is simply awful. You could easily have the best hand. You open raised on the button which is viewed as a steal raise in most games so you could have done this with a far worse hand than AQ. The check-raise by the blind in a situation like this frequently means just top pair. But you have almost the best kicker with your top pair of Aces and should re-raise. Unless you have a written contract from the big blind to the effect that he will not raise without at least two pair or a set, your fold was very bad here.
..after reading about your moronic laydown. you never assume someone has flopped a set. do the math and then ask yourself if you made a good laydown. that is just plain awful weak poker. you should have reraised. or even smooth called the flop and raised the turn. there's a chance he has two pair or a set, but the most liekly thing here is that he has a decent underpair (like 99) or that he has an ace with a weaker kicker and he's hoping he caught you on KK or QQ or something.
Thanks for everyone's answers. If only a goofball would make that laydown, then that is where I am at in this game. I appreciate the candid responses. I guess it is back to the books then.
Thanks again
Sherman
Had to work late last night, so I didn't get down to the "office" until about 9:30. My 'student' was sitting home alone licking his wounds while his wife was at Bingo, so I stopped by to pick him up, and he tagged along to sweat my game. I like having him along for a couple of reasons: I enjoy the company, and I find I try to concentrate a little harder knowing someone is literally looking over my shoulder.
3-6 game, usual loose, passive crowd. Couple of new players I recognized as members of an upscale local country club, so I figured them as just dropping in to try out poker and blow off a few bucks. Rest of the game was mostly regulars.
I'm four off the button, and pick up Q-To. One early limper, and I would normally muck this trash without a second thought from middle position. But I'm sitting in the #1 seat to the dealer's immediate left, and I get a good look at seats 2,3, &4. All three players have their cards in their hands poised to pitch them in. I quickly realize that I'm going to get the button here; there will be 4 players tops if both blinds call, and suddenly QT looks a little better. I limp in.
As expected, 2,3,&4 dump, the SB calls, and the BB (one of the country club types) checks. Flop comes down K-6-5 rainbow. Three checks to me, and I bet out, portraying a King. I fully expect them all to fold, but the UTG player double clutches for a second, and calls.
Turn is a Ten. She checks, I bet, she folds. Total pot is $18, of which $12 is profit, minus the rake.
Now on the surface, there seems nothing too remarkable about this hand, and maybe there isn't. But my student, who has been running very poorly the past month or so, leans over and whispers in my ear, "You lucky so-and-so."
I mucked the next hand pre-flop, and stepped away from the table to discuss the previous hand with my student. I told him I didn't think luck had anything to do with it. I was paying close attention to what was going on at the table, saw an opportunity to sneak in under the radar with a hand I would normally not play in that position, and used my resultant good position at the table against opponents that were open books to read. Those little pots add up over the course of an evening. He has been relying more on hand selection to do well, and he bets his hands better than the opposition, but I think sometimes he plays a little too much by rote, rather than with any creativity.
Am I making too much out of this?
Not at all. You played well. Pre-flop Queen-Ten offsuit is a limping hand from middle or late position. When your opponents all check the flop, it is okay to bet the flop and try to pick up the pot. If no one has a King you have outs if you get called. On the turn, your pair of Tens looks like the best hand to me so of course you bet. I think there is still a lot you can teach your student.
that play was fine. nice read.
i think your only mistake is bringing along someone who will be looking over your shoulder, whispering in your ear, and probably giving off tells. very dumb.
He's OK during the hand. Most of the time, he doesn't even know what I've got pre-flop, so that: a) he doesn't give off any tells, even inadvertently, and b) it's more of a challenge for him to try to get a read on my play during the hand. After the pot is pushed, there is usually a couple of seconds to talk about something that might have come up, but more often, we will wait until we are both away from the table. I'm not out to tap the glass on the aquarium.
I'm also not worried about him getting 'inside my kitchen' any more than Rick N. is with his student. And in Rick's case, his protege and he often go heads-up in 15/30. My buddy and I rarely, if ever, sit down in the same game.
Just an interesting post for all of you out there. I was playing 3-6 last night, on the BB. THere are 4 limpers, including the botton. SB folds and I check with a 10-6o. The flop is a 6-6-J, no flush possiblities. I check, UTG bets, all fold to the botton caller, and I call. The turn is a 4, still no flush poss. I again check, UTG bets, call, call. River: another 4. Check, bet, botton raises (WHY?), and I think for a minute. Am I invisible? Or do they really not think that the big bling wouls stay in for free with a 6? I know either of my opponents would raise with pockets J pre-flop, and neither would stay in with a 6 or a 4 (unless suited with an A of K). I reraise and only the botton calls me. Botton has a A-Jo.
Questions- Did I play too slow? Did I play wrong? Why did they ignore me? I'm figuring that the only way I'm beat on the river is with another J, and they both must have one so my odds are good to slow play...?
Did I play too slow? Yes, don’t slowplay flopped trips.
Did I play wrong? See answer to #1
Why did they ignore me? You are probably viewed as a calling station
The good news is that the award for the worst play of the hand goes to the button. Not raising before the flop with AJo is inexcusable.
I don't think it is very wise to raise pre-flop in 3-6 hold 'em with A-Jo...your raise will not normally clear the field (which you need so your chances of winning the hand improve), especially if you are raising in late position, and your hand is not that dominant. This hand may be a marginal raise hand in a 15-30 game (and actually I don't think it would be correct even there), but definitely not here. Any comments?
I agree with no pre-flop raise. However, I'm curious if an after the flop raise was in order...
Absolutely. His top pair/top kicker will usually be good despite the small open pair on board. He should raise and force everyone to put in more money when he has the best hand.
Don´t raise preflop, but raise the flop, you want to know if someone has got that 6 as early as possible and not at the showdown.
I agree that Ace-Jack offsuit is normally not a raising hand especially after several players have voluntarily entered the pot. However, the button had a clear raise on the flop with the top pair/top kicker.
Izmet Fekali and Abdul discuss big cards preflop in loose games on Izmet’s website at http://izmet.desetka.si/ . My interpretation of their writings suggests that they would agree that AJo is a raise in this situation.
They probably would advocate raising before the flop, but it's not mandatory. You gain a bit by raising with AJo, but it's not a huge mistake to fail to raise, as raising only adds a small amount of EV.
I find it odd though that you would say the button played worst by failing to raise before the flop, because his goofy raise on the river is a much bigger mistake.
-Sean
I was cheating. I know that this cost him the hand. I guess it is not fair to pick a favorite in a hand that has so many high quality mistakes.
A-Jo is total caca at 3-6. not really that much better at 10-20 or 15-30.
In 15/30 AJo is either raise or fold. Its a fold in early position, and its a raise in middle position on.
In really tough 15/30 games its probably a fold until late middle position. Its to easily dominated to safely raise earlier than this.
I think you should lead at this flop with your trip Sixes. You will get played with by anyone with a Jack or even a good second pair (77,88,99, or TT). You might even get raised. On the turn, you must bet now. The last thing you want is for it to be checked around on the expense street resulting in you missing a round of bets. You played the hand like a little girl by just checking and calling so you were ignored.
This looks like one of the few situations where you might want to slow-play, and you choose that option. I understand that. When i say "slow-play", i mean "i am going to war on the turn *instead* of the flop". In other words, i do not advocate slow-playing here. You do not have a monster. You raise and re-raise on the turn, bet/raise/call the river.
On the river, when the button raises, he is saying that he has the case 4. At least, that is what the button should have in this situation. Having AJo, the button should have pounded the flop. It was completely stupid to raise the river.
Next time, don't slow-play. The case jack could have fallen, running Aces could have come, etc. Your hand is not strong enough to stand either of those situations, or a million more situations that could have happened.
Many people will call one bet with suited cards "just to see" if the turn card will be of their suit. Give them an option: pay a lot to play that way, or fold. I think you should have check-raised the flop, then bet/raised all the way through.
Last point: they ignored you because you don't matter at all in this hand. You didn't extract the maximum value out of everyone, and you didn't force people to react to anything. In fact, something tells me that you raise too infrequently, and if i were playing against you, i would fold every time you bet/raised (until you changed your strategy).
Fistdantilus
Intersting take. I actually think I raise too often, but I have started being more careful, especially at the 3-6 table. People will stay in with bootm pair, no kicker!!!
I know the guy on my left was going to bet the turn, which is why I checked. This essencially gives me position. Then, when the botton called, I just called, figuriong I get more money in the pot on the river (I was right). If I check-raise the turn, only one of the two call. I get 3 maybe 4 big bets in the pot (plus mine). Since I check/called, I got 2 on the turn, and 3 on the river.
In respionse to 'playing like a like little girl", that made me laugh. I think that's what I wanted them to think ath the time. I really sdidn't mind that they were ignoring me, since I have the best hand!!!
Oh, and, if the botton raises the turn (which he should've) I DEFINATELY 3 bet him!!!
Sorry, but i am doing excerpts from this.
"People will stay in with bootm pair, no kicker!!!" -Then what makes you think they will fold if you raise? Get their money in the pot ASAP.
"I know the guy on my left was going to bet the turn, which is why I checked. This essencially gives me position." -But you misuse position. What is the guy on your left telling you? Does he have a 6? a Jack? Nowhere in this hand can you really tell what he has. Until the button raises, he can believe he has the best hand at the table. Position is to help you make better choices. Knowing that he would bet here means that you can go for a check-raise instead of betting outright.
"Oh, and, if the botton raises the turn (which he should've) I DEFINATELY 3 bet him!!!" -Sorry, but this makes no sense. You would 3-bet the turn but not 2 bet?
Fistdantilus
Good job on this post.
Keep in mind that if you slowplay in low limit holdem (or any loose game), that the extra $$ you make by playing cleverly will not even come close to the extra $$ you would have made if you had just bet your hand and played it fast. So maybe I should have said that the extra $$ you LOSE by slowplaying does not make up for the $$ you would have made had you just played fast like you should have to begin with.
Believe me, you will make a lot more $$ in the long run by playing this hand fast. Even if you flop a "theoretically correct" hand to slowplay, you should seriously consider just playing it fast anyway, because you will often make more $$ that way.
Let me also say that your hand was NOT in the category of "theoretically correct" hand to slowplay. The correct play was for you to play fast. You would have won a bigger pot had you done so, and you would not have given the others such an easy chance to beat you.
Next time play fast besto'seven.
Dave in Cali
And one more hand:
Pocket nines UTG. I call and there are two other caller (including BB). The flop is a A-10-6o. I check, and the next guy bets. BB calls, as do I. The turn is another A. Again I check, and the next guy bets. BB folds. I fold.
Questions: Do I bet the flop because only an A raises me? If not raise, I win the pot by betting the turn, right? Since I didn't be the flop, do I bet the turn? Was I right to fold?
All help is appreciated...
I wont discuss limping with 99 utg.
If you are planning on calling a raise on the flop you should bet because you can safely fold to a raise. If you are called, you still could still be a dog because someone could have Ax and be afraid of their kicker.
I think you should check the flop and probably fold once the guy to your left bets. Playing a pocket pair with two overcards is a big loser IMHO. Even if the guy who bet has a 10 I think he will call you down once the second ace hits. Occassionally you will win the pot by betting out and you will feel real good about yourself but I think more times than not you will lose money.
You should not be playing pocket Nines once the flop comes, there is betting, and two overcards appear. It is too easy to be playing two outs and the pot odds are not there for a two outer.
.
raise before the flop, and if you have 1 or 2 opponents fire on the flop. If nobody has an ace, you win. If you get one caller, you need to fire the turn to get the guy drawing to his ten to drop. Since you raised pre-flop he has to think that ace hit you broadside. If he still calls, check the flop and expect to see an ace or a really badily played ten.
If you get raised on the flop or turn, drop.
I think two of the basic rules of low limit holdem apply here:
1)A lot of players call with any ace.
2)With a weak kicker, they may not raise but the will call all the way.
In a full game, i treat 9's just like I do 6's, 7's 8's and probably 10's. You need to be top pair or make trips on the flop to win. Personally, I don't see any value with opening or raising the flop with two overcards out.
There is no value in low limit. There is lots of value when 2 or 3 handed. If you drop when overcards hit when short-handed, then you probably need to limp with 88-TT to try to get more customers.
In 20/40, I dont mind taking 88-TT against one or two opponents. And the worst card that can hit is an Ace.
First, let me say that I detest limping. I am much more of a raise or fold person. However, many of the low limit games are extremely passive, which leads me to believe that cetin hands are profitable to limp with.
Scenario: You are in EP. If you limp, 80-90% of the time 5+ people will see the flop and it will not be raised pre-flop. What hands would you limp in with?
FWIW: I play 2-5 and 3-5 spread-limit where $5 is the max bet all the time. I wish I could see an unraised pot 80% to 90% of the time, but it just isn't so here. My estimate is 60% of the time we will not see a raise, so that limits preflop hands that I can come in with.
1. High no gap suited hands, 9Ts probably being the cutoff. 2. AA-JJ, JJ being speculative 3. AKo and AQo. AJ is a jackpot hand but not worth the trouble.
This is a jackpot game and I used to play jackpot hands such as 45h, but I have mostly quit playing them. Also table conditions dictate if I will play the jackpot hands. If I can get in easily, then I may see the flop.
Sherman
With most of the hands that you mention I am raising. I am interested in hands that are not worth a raise but if you can see the flop cheep a high percentage of the time, with the understanding that you will have many opponents, that are worth the limp.
Yes, Eeyor I see your point. I guess I don't generally limp because of the texture of the game. Someone is going to raise, so it might as well be me.
Sherman
YeeeHaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!
You should not detest limping. Limping is a tool in your toolbox just like checking, betting, raising, or folding. If you can find a game where there are 5 or more people taking a flop and no is ever so rude as to raise (except for you of course) then I would limp in on any pocket pair below Tens, any suited connector, any unsuited connectors higher than Nine-Eight, and any two big cards down to Queen-Ten offsuit. Of course, you must continue to raise with your premium hands like AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ, and AJ suited. The kind of game you are describing is sometimes found in a $1-$4-$8-$8 games along the Las Vegas strip where the blinds are $1 and $2.
So in other words you think 87s, 76s, 65s and 54s should not be played? And, what I find astonishing, QTo, KTo, KJo, QJo you´d limp with?? Please elaborate.
No, suited connectors should be played. Just don't play Nine-Eight offsuit, Eight-Seven offsuit, Seven-Six offsuit, Six-Five offsuit, or Five-Four offsuit.
You can limp in with King-Jack offsuit, Queen-Jack offsuit, King-Ten offsuit, and Queen-Ten offsuit because you have some high card strength and a top pair of Kings, Queens, or Jacks might hold up. If several players had limped in ahead of you you would have limped in with these hands.
The reason why I found it strange that you´d limp with KT/KJ/QJ/QT is that most people seemed to disagree on these hands when I asked roughly the same question a while ago, and HFAP also says no ("unless the game conditions are perfect" or something like that).
Originally I´d limp with KJ and QJ and dicard the other two, but now I´d settle for nothing less than KQo, these one pair-good kicker hands get drawn out too often for my liking, but with 80-90% limping, KJ and QJ become playable I guess.
Oh, and what were the reasons you originally said 98s+ and not 54s+ can be played? (flop-action?, drawing dead?,...?)
Yes, King-Jack offsuit, Queen-Jack offsuit, King-Ten offsuit, and Queen-Ten offsuit are troublesome hands that should not normally be played in early position. But this game we are dealing with here is not normal at all. We are dealing with a game where many players are taking flops and no one ever raises before the flop. This is a dream game referred to as loose-passive. These kinds of games are normally not found except in the lowest limits with a peculiar line up of players. In HPFAP, they are dealing with middle sized games ($10-$20 through about $40-$80) where pots are getting raised a fair percentage of the time and you typically have only 2 or 3 players taking a flop. HPFAP is dealing with a more typical game unlike what is described in this post.
It is SO game dependant, right, Jim? Your 30-60 game is not where you want to be limping in from early/middle position with small suited connectors, but the loose, passive LL crowd I see a lot is often perfect for these hands.
Last night, I've got my 'student' sweating my game, and after I'd been in the game about 30 minutes I limp in from the middle with T-8s. Six or seven of us take the flop unraised, and I end up winning a decent little pot on the strength? of a pair of Ten's. My buddy pokes me in the ribs after the hand as much to say,"What are you doing playing that junk?" And I told him, "Because the game conditions warranted it." Other nights you couldn't get me to play those kinds of hands at gunpoint because they're ramming and jamming. Go with the flow.
The section I got the quotation from was concerning loose-passive games, but thanks nontheless.
But I wonder: should I be happy if MANY players are seeing the flop when I´ve got KJo? Wouldn´t I be better off against a smaller field of limpers?
And you forgot (?) to tell me why you first wrote 98s+ and then said 54s+ was ok too (cf. my last post).
I think you may have misread Jim's original. It said any suited connectors and any unsuited connectors above 89. He never changed this statement.
Steve
BTW I would agree that I'd rather have K-J offsuit against a smaller field but we can't always have what we want. I guess the thing is with MANY limpers you don't have to make your hand as often nor have it hold up b/c of all the money you make when it does hold. Just my thoughts.
1)
"I think you may have misread Jim's original. It said any suited connectors and any unsuited connectors above 89. He never changed this statement."
But he did:
"No, suited connectors should be played. Just don't play Nine-Eight offsuit, Eight-Seven offsuit, Seven-Six offsuit, Six-Five offsuit, or Five-Four offsuit."
2)
"BTW I would agree that I'd rather have K-J offsuit against a smaller field but we can't always have what we want."
I know. But Jim said:
"This is a dream game referred to as loose-passive."
My point was that loose-passive is a very good lineup indeed, but not necessarily when holding KJo against a large field.
Jim - This set of hands has been one of the most difficult for me for which to develop a good strategy, in my loose-passive games. My current thinking is that I will play them only late, with the requirement that few people be in. Here is the problem that they give me in one of these "ideal" loose-passive games. (BTW, I agree with the term "ideal." These games have a very high EV in my opinion.)
Let's take ATo as an example; then we have a good illustration of both of the most common situations to play: (1) high top pair, mediocre kicker and (2) mediocre top pair, high kicker. My problems come, in (1) due to my opponents' passivity, and, in (2) due to my opponents' looseness.
Situation (1): The flop comes Axx. This is actually more favorable than Txx, different from a tough game, because people will call in all the way with as little as bottom pair (I "might be bluffing"). But the problem I am having with these loose-passive opponents is that they are so passive! I have met a lot of opponents now who never raise even with AA, before or after the flop, and some of them don't even lead-bet them on the flop! But they do call. So, when I hold ATo and flop Axx, I lead-bet and/or raise, and some number of opponents call me. This always looks promising, of course. The problem is that I often get shown AK or AQ at the end, and I can never see it coming because they don't play it "right."
Situation (2): I hold ATo and the flop comes ten high, Txx. My problem with this one is my opponents' looseness. Many of them will stay pre-flop with any hand containing an A, K, or Q, and sometimes any J. They consider Jx suited a premium hand! And the real crux of the problem: with no other value except one overcard, almost all of these people will call on the flop, and most of them on the turn as well. So, with 3 possible overcards and 2 times for them to hit, my TT are very vulnerable. S&M stated something like, "If you have top pair on the flop, an overcard falling on the turn or river is less of a threat." In my game, this is not true. These very loose players will always call with one overcard.
My current approach to a loose-passive game is to play, offsuit, only AK, AQ, and KQ always, and then add in AJ, then KJ, then the others, as my position gets later and/or I can see that there will be few people in. This has been in place for my last 130 hours, plus about 200 simulated hours on TTH, and I am very pleased with my new tightness. Very rarely do I slap my forehead and say, "OH - I'm so sorry I threw away that ATo!"
Dick
Good post. Any particular reason why you prefer KQ over AJ? (AJ is supposed to be a little stronger, or so I´ve heard)
Greg - My personal reasoning is that with KQ, if you flop top pair, there is only one overcard and/or one kicker that can beat you, whereas with AJ there are two.
In a variety of books, including HEPFAP21 and Lee Jones, AJ is given as an example of something you might consider dumping early in a tough game; KQ is never mentioned that way.
This is really borderline. I have had plenty of success playing AJo in loose-passive games, since opponents will call all the way with much less than, say, top pair/third kicker. It doesn't take much of a positive situation to get me to limp in with it.
Dick
AJ: flop Axx. overcards: 0, better kickers: (AQ,AK)2 flop Jxx. overcards: 2, better kickers: 0
KQ: flop Kxx. overcards: 1, better kickers: (AK)1 flop Qxx. overcards: 1, better kickers: (AQ)1
This is just a very minor point I´m trying to make, but the problem hands of opponents in each case are four (when you make top pair) which is why I think your argument:
"with KQ, if you flop top pair, there is only one overcard and/or one kicker that can beat you, whereas with AJ there are two"
why KQ is supposed to be better than AJ is not valid.
I prefer AJ offsuit to KQ offsuit because in those cases where no one has anything, the Ace-high with a Jack kicker will frequently take the cheese whereas King-high never will.
Yes, that´s certainly true basically, but the original post was concerning loose games, and there you always have to show down a hand, so that doesn´t make much of a difference. I assume that - if AJ is stronger than KQ - it´s due to other players paying off with Ax to your better kicker which likely happens only to a lesser degree when you flop a pair of kings. On the other hand, you can make an open end street with KQ, evening things out. But I´m hairsplitting now and it´s not really important anyway ;-)
I agree with your advice, except I think you have to raise with more than just AA-JJ, AK-AJ or you will become so predictable that even low limit players will start to catch on and you will get no action when you raise.
Also, if you have 5 callers, you can value raise suited connectors pocket pairs above 66, and Axs from late position.
Joe - Your point is excellent, if you play in a game with a bunch of regulars and they get a line on you. One suggestion for breaking that up, other than raising with "inferior" raising hands, is to sometimes limp-reraise with AA, KK, and AKs hands (this is a key part of Abdul Jalib's strategy for tough games as well).
One of the above posters, I think it was Dunc, made the best point: it is extremely game dependent. Where I play (Phoenix), there seems to be a constant new supply of strangers, mostly loose-passive, in the low limit games; and, in the course of a 4-6 hour session, they don't seem to care when I raise. I can fold all hands for 2 complete orbits, then come in for a raise holding AA, and 5 people call anyway.
My bottom line advice turns out to be: play it straight, raising only with the recommended top hands, and then adjust this as necessary based upon how the table is playing and how the table reacts to your raises.
Dick
Any pocket pair, suited ace, or connector.
I limp in early position with pocket tens. Two late limpers to kill button, a slumming 10-20 regular, who calls from the SB. Four take the flop: QcQdTc. Kill button acting as small blind bets; I raise to 20. (In these games an early raise often signifies a drawing hand, so I'm not reluctant to raise or bet a monster.) Late limpers fold and the kill calls. Turn: 3h. Kill checks; I bet; she raises; I reraise and she calls. River: Q She checks.
Question: What do you do, bet or check?
Thanks again.
John
I'd value bet. With that board, she might call with as little as A high and with a Q she probably would've popped you again on the turn.
David
I'd check. I only see four possibilites: She has a Q and you are dead meat, she has a pair bigger than tens and you are dead meat, she has a ten and you split, she had a draw and won't call. Not much value in betting.
I think you are probably right. My answer didn't really take into account what she must think our hero has. She must put him on at least a T, so she wouldn't call with less.
I'm not sure I would put her on a bigger pocket pair than T's, though. Would you just check your blind with KK after four limpers? I wouldn't. Probably not even JJ.
David
I would check the hand down. Her check-raise on turn would indicate she has the Q, unless she is a total maniac and would check-raise with a worse hand then a 10 or a draw, which seems unlikely.
BTW, I like your play on the flop by raisng early. Although, you flopped a very big hand, it is not one you can slow-play.
El Gato,
The 3 on the turn gave her a full house. After the hand was over, she wanted to know why I didn't know enough to slowplay the hand. I checked the river.
Thanks,
John
You know if the lady played that bad, maybe you should have bet the river. After that comment, I'm convinced she would have called on the river.
Best of Luck.
John - I have a response to a number of posters who liked your flop raise. If indeed you represent a drawing hand by raising, or if it was an important part of mixing up your play, then I don't object to your raise. But for standard strategy, this one should be slowplayed. I used to play an "under-full-house" fast, and then I took myself through the following logic one day:
What do you hope to accomplish with a raise on the flop? Whom do you want to stay in, and whom do you want to get out? Here's the answer:
IN: Any pair other than QQ (& hope he makes a FH if 99 or lower)
IN: Any straight draw (& hope he makes it)
IN: Any flush draw (& hope he makes it)
IN: Any backdoor straight or flush draw (& hope he makes it)
IN: Qx, with x lower than 10 (& hope he makes his FH)
IN: Any Tx other than QT (Boy, is he drawing dead!)
OUT: QQ, QT, AQ, KQ, or QJ
The thing to notice about this list is the OUT list. Anyone holding a Q is going to stay in, clinging by his fingernails, all the way through the river, no matter what you do. (I would!) So the one hand category you want to get out is the one you absolutely can't get out.
And look at all those hands you want to stay in. By raising, you "represent" trips or a full house. Your raise is going to force out a large number of hands that you might collect a lot from, if you allow them to draw. It is a concept from stud, that if you are pretty sure an opponent has trips, you shouldn't pursue a straight or flush draw, because his draw to a full house is better (more outs) than your draw, and he's leading. If you convince a thoughtful opponent that you have trips or better, he might not even pay once for a draw.
My bottom line: with two players out of four yet to act behind you, this hand should usually be slowplayed. Aggressively raising with "bottom full house" gets out the wrong opponents, and still keeps in the ones you fear.
Dick
Dick,
This might be a hand I normally would slowplay, but in this situation I knew that the players behind me would call with any sort of draw whether I raised or not. I was also aware that the initial bettor, remember, a slumming 10-20 regular, would probably think I was trying to move her off the hand. Had I even one caller between the intial UTG bettor and me, I would have slowplayed this hand. Also, the limpers were players who will play cards like J3s and worse, and both limpers will raise UTG with hands like KTo. Do you think this logic is still spurious? Thanks.
John
John - No, not at all. If the players behind you will always come in anyway, and if furthermore, to the 10-20 player your raise says, NO Queen, then by a reversing of the same logic, your raise is best.
As we've said many times, it depends on the players and your current image.
The real point of my logic is that this is not a hand in which you want to drive people out. I actually made this mistake the first few times I flopped a hand like this in live play, and then I worked out the logic presented here and changed my approach.
Dick
You make an excellent point. The only thing I would disagree is you probably don't want the player holding Qx staying in to make a full house. (Queens full vs. Tens full).
You're right. Error. Qx goes into the OUT column.
(But the main point survives, since you can't get him out.)
Dick
You have to check your boat down. She check-raised with 3 queens on the turn in all likelihood.
I have just recently started playing HE and have been playing in a card club now for about three months playing only a couple of times a month due to an hour and a half drive out there. I try to read as much as possible and I am looking for some advice in some of the games I play in.
I feel most comfortable in games where the players are tight-passive although when the game becomes loose-agressive and each round of betting seems to get capped I am unsure what my strategy should be. Also the game is 3-6 HE. I'd appreciate any comments and/or advice.
If 3-6 is your main game, then buy Winning Low-Limit HoldEm by Lee Jones for a start (if you haven't already). It isn't perfect, but it will give you a good starting point. If you have the $, I would get Turbo Texas Holdem from Wilson Software also. You can use this to learn how to count bets, figure pot odds, get your starting hand requirements down pat for both passive and aggressive games, and allows you to run simulations. It costs $90.
Get more comfy with loose passive games if you can find them. They offer more of a return because there are more players seeing the flop and chasing. Your tight passive game will be good for keeping your variance down (assuming you aren't maniacal), but there is more $ to be had in loose passive games where you can play more of the 'speculative' hands that pay big when they hit.
As far as loose-aggressive games, you need to play tight and play position well. Limping with marginal hands in early or mid position will get you caught for extra bets too often. Play big pairs and big suited connectors mainly as when you hit these you can make a killing. You'll play less hands, but you'll also leak less chips.
Finally, post some hands on these forums where you think you did or didn't play well. There are many decent players who post and you will get a good idea of the thought processes necessary for certain situations. I am fairly new also, and this forum has been very helpful in my poker education.
Well said Rookie.
Ten players. I'm UTG seat 1 (AdAh) I think and decide to limp I have a tight image mostly due to the cards I'm getting, seat 2 the best player in this group calls, seat 4 & 8 sb, bb, call.
Flop (AsJc4s).
I bet, 2 raises, all drop, I reraise, 2 calls. At this point I have him on a 4 Flush.
Turn (8s)
I bet, he raises, I call. Flush.
River (3h)
Check, Bet, Call.
Turns over (Qs6s).
If I had raised UTG I probably would of knocked him out and won a small pot. He had the only hand that could beat me unless someone played 25 something. It's a tuff decision whether to raise or not with AA utg, you may knock out the winner, in this case maybe, but you still might lose by raising to a (KsQs), on the other hand had the last card been a 8c you win. What I'm trying to say is that in a passive game utg is a difficult decision that you have to make automatically, so you should think about it before it happens which I didn't do, causing second thoughts even as I write this a week later. Be ready to process thoughts for different situations especially UTG.
Paul
Why did you bet the turn?
dan,
To not give a free card if he only had one and a draw going (KsQh). I'm not always right, in the past I've found I'm better off betting. If he raises then I'm almost positive and know I have to hit a pair to beat him on the river or another A.
paul
Ok this is funny...
first of all, if the best player on the table plays Q6suited in early position, wheres this game, i want to play!!!!!!
second, i think u should always raise with aces. but some dont agree with that
third, i would have bet the turn too. if i get raised, i would have considered foldin dependin on my readin of the raiser
i love the fish
Charlie
Charlie,
"first of all, if the best player on the table plays Q6suited in early position, wheres this game, i want to play!!!!!!"
This is the type of hand you can play in a passive game and make a score or easily fold for $4. He was a good player and knew to raise me to find out if anybody else had spades, there was only a Ks that was out there that could beat him. When I reraised he probably knew I probably had a set and would need a pair to win if he hit.
"second, i think u should always raise with aces. but some dont agree with that"
I agree you should know what you are going to do UTG with A's before you get them whether you decide to raise or not.
"third, i would have bet the turn too. if i get raised, i would have considered foldin dependin on my readin of the raiser"
Folding is not an option to me.
paul
Folding on the turn cannot be an option for any thinking player. If the guy turned raised my turn bet, turned over his cards and showed me his flush I would still call the raise. It's a simple case of pot odds.
Plus, there is the added possibility that the player has two pair and is playing them extremely strong, so you may have the best hand.
I play the hand exactly like Paul except I raise preflop.
oops of course foldin is not an option... u still have ten outs doh sorry when i wrote this comment i tought there was no ace on the flop
Sorry for misunderstandin!
Charlie!
For the record, I always pump with AA pretty much anywhere, but if your image was a tight one, i suppose you can make a case for limping.
I also wonder about Q6 suited in early position. Passive or not, unless this was just a play variation to be tricky, I think this is not the mark of a good player. Of course, I have also heard many people say that you can play less than optimally pre-flop if you play very good post-flop. Maybe that was this guy.
I agree with your turn bet for the same reasons. When he raises, I am absolutely not folding because the pot odds are definitely there for you to call and see if you can fill up on the river. Tough one. Like cornerbacks in football, poker players need to have a short memory.
Paul,
Like many other posters, I advocate always raising with AA. But, I think it's especially important in the lower limit games. Many players will never put you on the hand and continue to call with pairs throughout, often with bottom pair. It seems the only hand they'll ever think about in this situation is AK. In addition, rarely are the blinds so tight that both will fold to an UTG raise, and you know that anyone holding AK will reraise. I'd rather not think about those callers who I let in without the raise who beat me, but those callers who will jump in that I have dominated.
Also, (and I'm guilty of this myself far too often) you might be giving the other players more credit than they deserve; perhaps they're really not paying much attention to your solid play. Go ahead and raise; the Lone Ranger doesn't need his mask here.
John
I don't always raise with AA, but I always raise with AA, if you know what I mean. I'm sitting beside a guy last week who didn't raise from early position with AA, and the BB flops a split 2-pair with something like 9-3. One of his buddies in the game chides him for not raising pre-flop, and he says,"I never raise with AA up front. I don't want to tip off that I have a good hand." Huh?
We'll never know if your 'solid' opponent would have cold-called with his spades. You would be surprised what some of these guys consider a calling hand. In fact, I have had LL players tell me right at the table that they prefer to call a raise with something like 65o than just limp in. "Win bigger pots that way", or something like that for reasoning.
Anyway, back to this hand. Your 'solid' guy limps in with junk. Gets his dream flop. Now with 4 players to act between him and you when you bet out, he raises on his flush draw, cutting his price in half. Or is that doubling his price? Anyway, you properly punish him for his mistake by 3-betting.
Now the spade comes on the turn. You correctly bet out, because this guy should have something like Ax for his raise, rather than a drawing hand. Even if you think he might have the flush, you can't be looking for snipers behind every tree. If you get raised, you still have 10 outs to re-draw on him. When the brick hits the river, I would call him down virtually every time unless you have a completely accurate read on the guy or he flashes his hand.
Leave the tricky deception stuff for the final table at the WSOP. As a LL veteran, I say pump it up with those bullets from anywhere.
Was this a tight-passive or a loose-passive game (I assume the latter)? And what were your reasons for not raising preflop?
Greg,
The reason I posted this was not to debate whether it's better to Raise UTG or Limp. It was to be prepared to make a decision as to how I was going to play UTG with A's. I had not thought about it and decided to Limp. If I had thought about it and decided that Limping was the best play for this game at this time with the players that are playing now then I wouldn't of even posted this hand. Having not thought of it in advance I feel I lost the hand by not being prepared for the hand I played. So the reason for posting it was to help someone who doesn't always raise UTG with A's to think about how that person is going to play them depending upon the lineup. That way if you lose at least you thought about it in advance so that you will be more comfortable with your result win or lose.
Paul
Ah, I see. I´m also against limping and I didn´t want to get a discussion started, but knowing why you decided to limp, I could have given a better answer to your question (not that it matters now, but I like to know all the facts before answering in general).
Okay I have been bit by the Hold'em bug and I am going to give it 110% but I would like your guys advice and experience beforew I dive in.
First, how long on average will I need to play before I can work my way up from 3-6 to 10-20 and be a consistent winner?
Second, What should be my starting bankroll? before I go into 10-20?
Finally, Of your winnings what do you live off of, because you always need cash to play so if you make 50,000 in a year from poker it is not realistic to say that that 50,000 will go to you playing bigger games.
I thank all of you who help me with these questions even if you can't answer them all I like as much advice as possible.
Ok then, If you are a quick study I would play 3 months at 3-6, 2 months at 6-12 and then move to 10-20. Bankroll would not be my primary concern when choosing a limit. Game selection is much more important. Hopefully you live an area with a good choice of games and limits. once you get comfortable and know the basics then I think you can bounce around from 6-12 to 15-30 depending on how good the game is and, to a lesser extent, the size of your bankroll. The great thing about being an moronic ass kissing 9-5er is that if you lose your bankroll there is always a paycheck to bail you out. Fortunately I havn't reached this point, but I have come close because of playing at a limit that my bankroll didn't support. the discussion of bankroll is often from the perspective of whether or not to go pro. in this case you need a much larger bankroll because going broke is a real disaster in addition to being a huge blow to the ego.
beware the hold em bug. hold em is a deceptively difficult game to master. very tough stuff. stick with 3-6 (or less) if you have about $1-2000 to lose, it could totally happen if you are playing and learning at the same time. dont even think about 10-20 until youve had at least a year of consistently beating lower limits.
your post sounds like you are 19, have just discovered paradise poker online, and you have lofty naive expectations. very few players are making $50K plus a year playing hold 'em. i in fact have the same ambitions, but you have to plan to start very slow and be very careful or you will go into serious debt which is quite depressing. if im completely wrong than forgive me.. just be careful!
Hey, I have also just started playing hold 'em with my gf, we have a bankroll of about 1200, we started about a month ago, we had some great luck, winning about 600 american in about 4 days of playing. At that point I had read lee jones, only read of course. After that, I had some very huge motivation to learn as much as possible as I was previously counting cards on black jack and got real bored of that, and thought this game was a sinch. To my dismay, it is not easy at all, but way tougher then BJ to beat. So, thinking this game was easy I got sklanksy's 21st century book read that, mastered lee jones, WE studied for about 1 hour a day reading and discussing things, thinking how easy it was to beat the fish at this game. The next weekend we left to Turning stone and played again, but this time despite the huge amount of learning that took place, I lost 500 american (200 at 3-6, 200 at 5-10, and an additional 100 at 3-6 the following day), my gf won about 300. I played very good but did not see anything better then 2 9's on the preflop for about 7 hours at 5-10, I also got beat really really bad sometimes. A combinatio of bad beats, and horrible preflop cards brought me down 500.
Previous to this experience, I thought for sure that I could pull in 2 BB/HR. However, during the past 10 days, I've read at least 2 hours a day on old posts, and new books, and me and my Gf have been discussing plays etc etc. So my expectations have gone down to hoping for about 1bb/hr even 0.75 would be nice at 5/10. We still have much to learn but we are now ready for the negative variance and will flow with it, learning as much as we can.
I saw some interesting things during my trip. AT the tables I seen a guy that got trips twice in 2 hours, each time the board came up a straight on all five cards, so people split the pot. This is something that happens so rarely yet it happened twice to this guy in 2 hours, getting trips in that time is rare enough. ANyways, I guess after talking to tons of people and getting educated at the game, I would say that odd stuff happens very often in this game and to not expect too much and hopefully pull in some money. BTW(I am 21, and my gf is 19) so we too were thinking "EASY MONEY".
Now, we are thinking yes there is money to be made, but we have to perfect our game and really learn as much as we can. This thought change occured only about 10 days ago, I was thinking the exact same stuff as you, but I actually experienced some neg. variance so I can now relate to the other people. Also we have accumulated about 150 hours table time now, at 60 hour we won tons, so obviously our views would have been a lot more positive, it really sucks when you lose your profits in a day.
Well bye for now.. Fieldy
you have only been playing for a month. In two months you will look back at your play and think, "god I was such a fish." And in a year, you will wonder how you ever thought you were good after two months of playing. The game is about experience, and if you are as dedicated as you say you are it will not be hard to beat the middle limits for 1BB an hour.
outstanding advice!
HE is very difficult. And can be very deceptive - if you run into some good luck that lasts a while you may think you know the game. WRONG! You should have at least 1000 hours under your belt before you can make valid observations about life as a poker player.
very intuitive, you are dead nuts I'm quite impressed
the move from 3-6 to 10- 20 is huge. i would say that you should focus on 5- 10 first. the game is not that different, and your adjustments will be small in order to keep winning. from 5- 10 to 10- 20 is like night and day. the tricks that work at 5- 10 don't at 10- 20. at every level, choosing your table is critical, but you can safely assume that the 10- 20 will be stocked with all the people that you don't want to see at your 5- 10 table. are there fish at the 10- 20? sure. but you need much more in your skill base to filet them.
lots of "luck" -captain marlow
All these guys give great advice. HE is a science where many intangibles play a significant factor. The better you can make heuristic analysis of these intangibles, the better your decisions will be. Other plyers are honing their skills while you build yours. There are fish out there, but at the higher limits you'll run into many more skilled players. Bad beats are part of the game - you're always looking for someone else to make a great second best to your monster. They're looking to do the same to you. Be careful -- it's no picnic, but it's fun.
I'm serious when I say that there is nothing better than hours spent at .25/.50, or lower if possible, to get experience at the game. I see people playing .50/1.00 or 1.00/2.00 on the net with big rolls and they seem to grow each day. They play many hours probably exceed the bb/hr expectation. My point, learn as cheaply as possible. The high limit games are super tight and no place to experiment/develop "your style" ; they reward more dollars per bb, which equals more dollars per hour(wages?). Who starts any career at the top or even the middle? Remember, you're never as good or as bad as your last session, it just feels that way. GOOD LUCK!
i don't think that it has been said, so here goes:
buy "Hold 'em Poker For Advanced Players," written by our gracious hosts David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth, and read it over and over again until the cover falls off. that lee jones book is good, but you will make back the price of the book mentioned above in your first session.
happy hunting.
As others have said, great advice here. A few more thoughts that may help:
1)Re bankroll: I think more importantly is to play at a level that you are comfortable. If you are want to play at a 10-20 limit, can be comfortable taking a $500 to $1000 loss in a session, and not allow that potential to put you off your game, go for it. There was an old texas gambler I knew who used to play on the ark-la-tex circuit who liked to say "scared money never won anything." Ie, if you are worried about losing money, this will take away your concentration and probably make you a loser.
2) Like athletes, I think poker players get in a zone. When you are sitting at the table, thinking clearly, making good decisions, seeing things you don't normally see, feeling confident and winning a little, this is a good time to move up.
3) Given this, spend some time at 3-6. Experience the fluctuations and see how you handle them. When you find yourself thinking about how much you need to play professionally or what you could do with $50,000 instead of how to make yourself a better player, you need to slow down and refocus.
Here is a personal antedote that may help. I spent the first week of November (monday-thursday) in Las vegas. I played 4 sessions of either 3-6 or 4-8 holdem. I never lost in one of these sessions. I was in "the zone." I went to the Mirage that last night with the full intention of playing 6-12. Waiting for a seat to open and preparing mentally for the game, I came to the realization that I was tired. My sleep rythmn was screwed up, my wife and I had been walking daily to see all the new casinos, and I had played my longest session the night before. The 'old poker me' would have said "Aw to hell with it" and hit the 6-12 game probably losing and walking away discouraged. The new me sat down in a loose passive (my specialty) 3-6 game and walked away a small winner. It was my smallest win of the trip but the one I was most proud of. Being a good poker player is about more than how much you win. It is about knowing yourself and your skills.
Bean,
I feel very much like your going thru what i went thru once upon a time. I've bounced all over the place, going from fish to captain fisher, and back...HE is very strange game, I thought at one point about 3 mos ago (this is after over 1 1/2 years of reading and study) that I was finally at a point where I could....how do i say this w/o sounding like a fish....i can't.....rest on my laurels for the time being, Poker is a game of constant learning, and the advice about the step from even 5-10 - 10-20 its night and day...no comparison, I especially LOVED captain marlow's comparison of how to get fish at 10-20 you need alot more in your skill bucket to filet them, this is 10000% true...the first time I played 10-20 I felt like I would r00l it....the sad thing is i lost 300 in just under 3 hrs, trying to use the same old moves and tricks and thought processes that I used at 5-10, 3, 6 and 2/4 I kept getting slaughtered at 10/20 and got taught the hard way, now I can hold my own, I'm not getting killed and even putting on the occasional kill, but by no means am I winner at 10-20 + I won't even try to fake it, its tough. I guess to say that the proverbial fish at 10/20 on up are the wily ol bastards, would be an understatement...for the "truly" skilled player, just as the truly skilled angler, enticing a fish out of the weeds can be done time and again with patience, but when your using the wrong bait for the wrong species, your not going to catch much. So be careful in those hostile waters. 99% of the posters on 2+2 all have something very important and worthwhile to say, obviously some more than others, but I look to most on here when I feel there is a leak in my game, and though I've had to take some time off to reexamine life and my game, I am back and ready to "get back in the ring", so my advice to you is 1. PLAY PLAY PLAY PLAY, poker excellence=experience experience experience. 2. Read everything by the 2+2 authors, read texas dolly's book, read Caro, read Jones (although some 2+2ers don't agree this book helped me with the early days), read krieger, 3. Don't stop playing, and NEVER get discouraged, poker is a very discouraging game, one minute, you cash out a 500 or 1000 winner at 3/6 or 5/10 and you feel like your ready to go to the Series, then a few sessions later, poof! you lose that plus some, the cards turn there're backs on you, lady luck runs out, whatever you want to call it, take heart in the fact that in the long run, the money flows to the skilled, and the ones who are Skilled AND Perservere will make the most. And that is what we ALL want to be...Skilled and have the will to Perservere. Above all, Poker can be very good to you, if you put the hours in, and pay your dues, everyone does it, not everyone rises past that beginner stage....good luck.
First off what what limit are you trying to get into? Second have you had any experience playing anything other then 3-6?
I just started playing hold'em 2 years ago. I'm 20 now and currently trying to move into 15-30. When I first started playing I started at 3-6 and got bored of the stakes so I moved to 5-10. After winning somewhat consistantly I moved my way to 10-20. I suggest following the same route because I believe weak players are plentiful at 3-6 but you'll find that you won't find as many of them as you go up in stakes. Of course you will find some at any level but when you're at 20-40 you'll definitely have to rely on much more skill rather then having weak players throwing chips at you. So as you move up in the limits you can have the experience you've gained from each previous experience.
Try playing 5-10 first and see how you do. After a month or so of consistant winning I think you can move up to 10-20. But watch out. At this level it is not unheard of to lose around 1500 after 10-15 hours of play. Also you have to know if you really do have enough skill to win at this level. After a loss look back and see if you lost because of bad beats, cold cards, just stupid calling, or if you were outplayed. If it happens to be the latter two I would just go back to 3-6 for a game that you can beat and have fun at and try again after a year or so.
By the way before I even started to play hold'em seriously I read every 2+2 book publsihed concerning texas hold'em and even some on 7 stud. O and I've even read a few books on craps heh but none published by 2+2 I guess I just like reading up on gambling. If I were you I would definitely go to your local bookstore and buy Texas Hold'Em for Advanced Players. Plus I thought Inside the Poker Mind was really good too.
good luck,
-Chet
I disagree with those who claim that you'll be ready to move up after one month of winning sessions at 5-10. I speak from experience when I say that anything short of a year is not an adequate time frame within which to measure your success. Just because you have a few winning sessions does not mean you won't swing into an equal or greater number of losing sessions.
When deciding which limit to play at, it's all about BANKROLL and TALENT.
You acquire talent through vast experience. Learn to beat the terrible rake at the 5-10 and lower limits for _months_. Lee Jones' advice is great for these games.
Move up only after you have memorized Sklansky and you have 5000 or more dollars to spare. Be ready to lose a bit while adjusting to the more skilled opposition. And BE CAREFUL during the transition period when you are learning from HE For Advanced Players. You might be tempted to use strategies that will not work against weak opposition. Save it for 10-20.
Do not spend your bankroll. Keep your day job until your poker makes twice as much in a year as your day job (you'll need years to see those results). Wait and see how the long term odds play themselves out.
Now this hand troubles me.
When you start out you'd think this is a premium. Well, now I can see why it can be a trouble hand. Especially in early position or when someone has raised. So I'd like some input.
First: Do you play this hand from early position ?(Group 4 hand so usually, I do)
Second: This hand does not like multiway pots so, Do you raise with it? And from what position ?
Third: Do you call a raise cold with it ?
Thanks,
ThePrince
1) Yes, but not in aggressive games, or game where any ace will take the pot a good portion of the time.
2) Not usually, it can be used to steal or protect the blinds, however.
3) Only if the raiser if very loose, and then it might be a good idea to re-raise and try to isolate him. 90% of the time, it's a fold to a pre-flop raise.
GB
Presuming the game is loose-passive:
1) Yes. (The only other offsuit big hands being AJ, AQ, AK, but I have my doubts about AJ and KQ)
2) Never (too many callers despite the raise) unless shorthanded (for me that´s 5 or less players sitting at the table) or one caller/first one in from late position, don´t want to give draws the proper odds on flop.
3) It depends, but folding is likely better.
KK one left of UTG. Raise. All fold to not very good player on the button who re- raises. Heads up, I make it four. He caps. Flop: A, x, x, rainbow
i bet, he raises. i fold, he shows pocket tens. i feel ill.
This is a situation where you have to know your opponent. You describe him as a 'not very good player'. Perhaps this should give you an idea as to what hands he may re-raise you with.
In this case, it looks like he knew more about you than you did him. He had to be reasonably certain you could lay down a big pair if you got popped. File this away in your player profiles for next time.
GB
Why did you bet the flop? Against a bad, overaggressive player, I would be inclined to just check-call to the river, although you could consider betting out on the river after check-calling the flop and turn.
-Sean
What are the lowest limits at the various Tunica casinos? And which have the fishiest players?
I have just begun playing hold 'em in the Midwest and still have a long way to go, but am going to Tunica this weekend. Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers, sargon
A maniac open raise in the cutoff. U saw him raisin with 45o as well than with AA U hold ATo
Do u fold, call or reraise to isolate?
ty
charlie
1) What position are you in? 2) Any limpers before the maniac?
Assuming you are on the button and there are no other limpers, perhaps. Otherwise, no.
CALL, BEAT'M UP AFTER FLOP. IF YOU MISS, FOLD!
im on the button sorry
ty for help
charlie
Against a loose raiser you should re-raise ATo on the button. I never just call against a loose raiser with a medium-strength hand like ATo, because you want to get heads up with those sorts of hands.
As an aside, if you were in the small blind against the loose raiser, I would suggest re-raising. In the big blind, I would be inclined to call, but wouldn't necessarily argue against re-raising.
-Sean
KK in BB. Been getting my butt kicked.
3 limpers - one early, button, little blind, I raise, all call.
Flop is Q78. I bet all three call.
Turn is J. I bet, two calls, button pops it. I think for a little bit then raise. middle two players call again, button caps it. I think for a while again, and decide I'm beat, that the button or one of the callers has to have a straight, so I'm drawin dead, so fold. ("capping" is not a common occurence in this game - especially past the flop).
I don't remember the river card. call it a 2. Button bets, gets called once, and takes pot with set of 8's.
I was a little shaken at not seeing a straight.
don't know why, but I can't stop thinking about this hand. Any comments?
Chance
Chances are that gut-shot won't be cvahsing you with all those raises. You have to put the botton on a set or at least 2-pair. Other limpers may catch str8 draws or flushish.
A fold was the right move.
Roy Cooke wrote what i thought was an excellent article in card player a few weeks ago about the importance of putting players on a range of hands vs a specific one. this is probably a good example of this. irregardless of what specific hand you put him on, the pattern of betting indicates you are beat. I would have put him on two pair, trips or the straight.
I think you have played it correctly until your re-raise on turn. Given the board cards, many cards can hurt you at this point as possibility of two different straights, sets and variety of two pairs linger. Moreover, your re-raise could have been further challenged by the two remainig limpers and, yes, the button's follow up action.
When raised on turn, you could weigh your options between calling or folding, but not re-raising.
Nice post!
I don't like your re-popping it on the turn. it costs the same to call the raise then check-call the river. Since the turn made a possible straight, plus the turn raiser did what many players do with a flopped set - wait till the turn to raise, I don't think you had any sensible reason to reraise on the turn then fold if popped again.
Here if you would have check-called, at least you would have been able to show down and possibly win the pot for the same price. In this particular instance I can see no positive expectation at all in making it three bets on the turn.
If you were so certain of a straight why did you raise when you were drawing dead? I agree with your turn bet as you do not want to give a free card here. Perhaps you should have folded to the first raise on the turn if you were so certain in your read, but reraising was pure folly.
Dave in Cali
I'm playing last night at 3-6 after recieving some very good advice and a hand came up that I don't know if I played correctly
I held Ac Qc one before the button raised and got three callers.
flop came 6c 7c 8c
everyone checked to me and I bet out
button called, BB folded, and the player to my right called
turn came Kh, Checked to me and I bet out
river came 10d and again I bet out but was raised by the button so I reraised thinking I had the nuts
button just called my raise and turned over 9c 5c!
My question is how can I read players who don't bet out the nuts. Did I play this correctly or should I have checked on the river?
There is absolutely no question about betting the river. And I would have 3 bet if raised. Why on earth didn't HE reraise YOU again with the nuts?
It can seem frustrating to play against people who won't bet their hands, even if they have the nuts or close to it, but in the long run you make more money from them if they play so passively.
One hand I saw - someone flopped the nut straight. There was a bet and a call and he called. There was a 2 flush on board and he was afraid to raise because he would lose more money if the flush came!
The turn paired the top card on board - a ten I think. The other called folded and he just called.
On the river he was so afraid that the other guy had made a full house that he just called AGAIN. Obviously his straight won - trip tens was angry that he never raised.
-SmoothB-
You absolutely bet out the hand. You have a great hand and shoulcdn't be too concerned about a str8 flush when it's not bet. Even if he check raises on the turn (why doesn't he?) you're not going anywhere. You're simply beat. Thems the breaks.
Side note- you will 99 times out of 100 beat anyone playing these cards. Don't second guess your betting strategy just b/c of some extremely lucky pull...
I like the fact that you bet when you flopped the nut flush. Unfortunately, it wasn't quite the nuts. However, this is a one in a million occurrence and I think you played fine. If you allow this to scare you from betting in the future you are making a costly error. Too bad on this one but I also would have bet all the way, including the river.
Dave in cali
I think you played fine. Some people might advocate slowplaying on the flop, but I would have bet out like you. You keep betting out and they keep just calling, so no, I would definitely NOT check the river. I keep leading/raising with your hand until someone tells me different. When the button raises you, the beads of sweat might start to form, but I wouldn't have put him on a straight flush by his actions. I would have though a smaller flush. I think the button played this terribly. Slowplaying the flop when you have the mortal nuts - OK. Not raising the turn? Not capping the river? Were you playing against the Pope? This guy could have taken more money from you by playing this faster.
You lost to a guy who got the biggest dream flop of his life. Thems the breaks. Next hand, please.
Question, was he the one that gave the advice? Also, how had you and he been playing? Would you cap turn and bet river? He may have measured you better then you think. Your play is the only way to go. You'll remember this every time you win future "nut flushes".
I'm so glad everybody agrees that you did the right thing. I got a little pissed off at the winner (on the inside). Not for me losing but for him not playing his hand correctly and taking MORE of my money!! LOL
First off, the button is an idiot not to pop you after your reraise. And no, I don´t believe you could have known he had the absolute nuts.
I have learned to be happy when I loose to that kind of player. This player could have take much more money from you. He made mistakes that saved you money, and every bet you don't lose adds up in the long run...
This happened to me as well. I was playing 2-4 and I raised on the river heads up with a king high flush. My opponent called with an ace high. He said he never raised when he had the nuts, he already won the pot so why kick someone when they're down.
Never kick a guy when he's down? Sorry - I can;t understand that one. I play to win money and will take every penny a guy wants to give me. Does this make ne evil?
Just kidding...
However, I do not always extract the absolute maximum out of every single player no matter what. a few weeks ago I made aces full on the river with a flopped set of aces. Another player, who had been getting stomped horribly, and was a terrible player, but a very nice person, and whom had plenty of 100$ bills, raised me on the river, heads up. I just called even though I knew I had him beat. I didn't want to push him over the edge and have him quit. When asked why, I said "well I didn't want to kick you any more while you were down". He thanked me and kept playing for two more hours, losing another 150$.
these situations are fairly rare, I usually extract the maximum. but sometimes it does pay to be nice. that one bet I lost by not reraising was more than made up for in the three more pots I won that he participated in before he quit.
dave in cali
You did everything right. Your opponent errored by not re-raising on the river. If you are 4 bet with an ace high straight, then it is time to check the board and see if a straight flush possibility is there.
Correction, ace high flush
3-6 hold-em at Bay 101. Full game, very loose-passive. I pick up poket Aces in middle postion and raise 4 limpers in front of me, 3 players behind me cold calls. Pretty good pot.
Flop is 9h5c3h. SB bets into me, 3 callers, and I pop it when it gets back to me. 2 players to my left cold calls, and I think the button folded, everyone else calls. I put SB only on a 9 when he doesn't raise back. Also, there is a solid player two to my left who I put on a heart draw, and the rest god knows what the rest had to call two bets.
Anyway, the turn is a 2c. Checked to me and I bet and everyone calls.
The river is a 7h. Checked to me and I check as well, and now the solid player bets. SB calls, everyone folds to me. I think about mucking because I am almost sure the solid player is not bluffing, but I take a look at the pot and make a crying overcall. SB and I both lose the the Jh10h. SB flashes A9s.
My question is I was fairly sure I had SB beat, was the pot big enough to overcall? My thinking was since I thought I had the SB beat and he was the only caller, it was as if I was heads-up with the solid player on the river.
I know I'm probably missing something so any comments would be appreciated.
When you are almost certain you have the CALLER beat, ignore him and focus only on whether the pot warrants a "crying call".
- Almost certain is NOT the same as probably.
P.S. Alot of times it's actually good to have a calling station in between you and a good player; the GP will bluff very little ( if at all ) since he will know he can't get away with it meaning you don't have to pay off with your weakest hands, i.e. those that can only beat a bluff.
Well thought out question but you had it figured right on your own.
Thanks for response.
you could not be raised and the pot was huge, I would call here virtually every time. don't worry about that one lost bet, worry about that one time you will be right and win a huge pot that you didn't expect to win. some might argue to fold but I will have to disagree despite the fact that you were probably beat. The pot was huge!
Dave in Cali
Thanks!
You have to call here given the pot size which looks like it is over 30 small bets. You have to be right a tiny fraction of the time to make it a profitable play.
I am going to play at Turning Stone Casino in NY next week and I plan to play a lot of 3-6 Hold em and 1-5 stud, but their unusual rake structure makes me wonder whether I should make any playing adjustments whether it is too high in the first place. Rather than take a pot percentage, the button pays for table time with one small bet ($3) that is dropped and doesn't play. This definitely eats into your bankroll if you are catching cold cards. Any thoughts?
First let me answer your question as to the button charge.
There is no rake; you are paying time, or more accurately you are paying for each hand you play. In the end it works out to be exactly the same as if you had paid $.30 per hand to play.
The $3 fee is actually a bargain if you are used to A.C. or Connecticut since both of these have a [10%] $4 max rake, and well over 80% of all pots at 3-6 reach $40; on a Friday or Saturday night it's more like 95%.
Note: They have something very similar to a "no flop / no drop" policy. It's not exactly the same, but it's very close.
I believe the same was true for 1-5 stud; if there is no 4th card the winner gets the $3 - check on this, I didn't play any stud, but I did watch a few hands.
The major stategic adjustment...
ALWAYS CHOP THE BLINDS. When I was there, they didn't actually chop, the SB would just fold (and give up $1) so the BB could get the $3 fee handed to him, after which the BB would toss the SB $1.
Of more importance, THE PLAYERS ARE THE WORST I'VE EVER SEEN, and very aggressive.
Bring some extra money and get there before 6:00 PM if possible; once the seats fill up it can take up to a couple of hours to get seated.
If you like games with terrible players - some people actually don't - you've found a home; in addition, expect to find very little bad behavior (lots of polite Canadiens), perhaps because there was no liquor served in the whole casino.
I understand your argument that it's a bargain on average. But doesn't it actually cost the tight player more? I play in Connecticut and I'm pretty sure I pay the rake alot less often than some. :-)
David
Yes, I do find that the button charge eats into my stacks pretty quickly when I am not getting any hands. I think that your money lasts longer in a cold streak when the game is raked. An additional question; I noticed that the games were VERY soft when I was there last time (I won about $200 at 3-6 playing very few hands). What kind of bankroll would I need to tackle 5-10 there for a weekend stay (Thursday through Saturday)? I am a college student on a semi-tight budget (poker winnings here help) and I was planning on $350 for 3-6 and a TINY bit of craps play (my guilty pleasure). Would I need over $500 to play 5-10 exclusively?
I was there last weekend, it costs 50$ for a room, poker comps. They are VERY nice rooms. The games are good but the rake does kill the bankroll when you get a cold streak, which unfortunately I did, However, the 3-6 there is great, the 5-10 is okay if there is a 10-20, 20-40 going on(taking care of the small-time pro's) IF there is just a 5-10 and a 3-6, stick to the 3-6, as the 5-10 will have lots of good, tough players.
Fieldy
And I get alot of cold streaks. Or so it seems.
The games are quite variable. Foxwoods has changed format. They've dumped the 3/6 kill game. They now offer 2/4(no kill), 4/8(no kill), and 5/10 with a full kill. The 2/4 games are often populated by a bunch of tight passive retirees. The 4/8 games can range all over the place from quite tight to wild as h*ll, but they are usually pretty good. The same can be said for the 5/10 kill, although there are often a few more solid players here. Your swings could be quite large with the 5/10 kill if the pot gets killed alot. I'd recommend the 4/8 for you and without monstrously bad luck $500 would be enough I think. Or start out on the 5/10 kill and drop down to 3/6 at Mohegan Sun if you start running bad.
Mohegan Sun spreads 3/6 (no kill) and 5/10 kill. The 3/6 is almost always good unless there's a long waiting list for 10/20 or 20/40. I haven't played the 5/10 game at MS.
David
this is the dead drop on the button rule and it sucks. I will not play in this structured game period. If the $$ was live and taken after the flop or on 4th then that's different. Otherwise, you are getting seriously ripped off and I would not play. If you play 40 hands an hour it costs you 12$ per hour. If you are reasonably tight, even with a 10% to 4$ rake, you will rarely if ever average paying 12$ an hour to play poker. that sort of time charge is more consistent with higher limit games in AC such as 15-30 HE. (I'm not sure what it is now, but when I lived there 10-20 HE was 5$/half hour at the trop). I believe Mason discusses this in poker essays, either I or II. Perhaps someone can clarify. Either way I think this structure is a ripoff and I wouldn't play in it.
Dave in Cali
I posted on this same subject a couple of months ago after a visit to California. I played 3-6 HE at Bay 101 in San Jose. There, the button drop is live - counts as a blind - but it is dropped immediately.
I said then that I have no strategy to beat this game, and asked if anyone can claim a winning record at California 3-6 Hold'em. Lee Jones, are you reading?? Anyway, no one made that claim.
I think it is not beatable.
Dick
that much $$ being taken off the table, and more specifically, out of your pocket, makes the game very hard to beat, although not necessarily completely unbeatable. however, there is a brick wall outside you could just bang your head on that if you like, because with 12$ an hour being taken off your stack, you are unlikely to make much of a profit, if not take a loss over the long run.
there is no doubt in my mind that AC 3-6 games are beatable, since I have personally done so and so have various others, despite the 10% to 4$ rake. but trust me, the really bad players who win lots of pots are paying LOTS to the house in rake. the difference is that I didn't pay as much rake since I won far fewer pots.
The game is MUCH more beatable if the drop per hand is live and you get to count it toward your bet. the house is really screwing themselves by not making it live, since they make the same amount but the game is not hurt as much by regular players giving up because it is unbeatable. however, you are still probably much better off with a rake. or better yet, one cali cardroom has a 3$/half hour time charge for all games, regardless of size, best I have seen anywhere.
dave in cali
To pay $3 every time you have the button in a little $3-$6 game is to play in a game that is difficult to beat for much money over time regardless of how well you play. You will get the button 3 to 4 times per hour which means it is costing $9-$12 per hour to play. Even the best players don't figure to beat this game for more than about $9 to $12 per hour over many thousands of hours of play. If you are a good player in a rake game of say 5% up to a $3 max, your cost is only about $6.60 per hour (you win slighlty more than 2 pots per hour on the average).
A
The dead button drop tends to reduce the edge that a tight/solid player has over loose players (compared to a rake game). On the other hand, this collection method encourages looser play; these games are often very beatable. If you have an optimally tight playing style for rake games, you should adjust to the button collection by playing slightly looser on the first round or two (since no money is being taken out of the pot for rent).
Noone wins in those games. Well worth it to move to 5/10 or better yet 10/20. The 10/20 game at TS has been very soft the last few times I was there.
How much would I need over a weekend to play in a 5/10 game? a 10/20 game? I would like to move up, but have some bankroll concerns. What are the rakes like? Differences btwn these and 3/6 there (are the players better)?
This is a post that has to do with 7-stud but I beleive the principles are similar to Hold'em so I would appreciate your comments.
I'm playing with 6 others in 1-4-8 spread 7-stud and have an Ad showing and my hole cards are Ah and Ks
So I raise the maximum 4
EVERYONE CALLS!
4th street blank and I raise 4 again
cut the field to 3 limpers
5th street another blank but no one has a threatening board so I raise 4 again and cut the limpers to 2
6th street ANOTHER BLANK yet not pairs on anyone else's board or anything else scary
Now I know by this time there's a good chance someone made two pair but at this point I think I've shown too much agression to check so I raise 8 and I'm heads-up
Finally comes the river to give me yet another blank and I have a pair of Aces as I lose to two pair 8's and 4's
I would like to know if I played this correctly or if I am too caught up in Hold'em to realize these are too diferent games. Did the other player know something I did not know cossidering she called me down with two pair, also the player was not a calling station
I would also like to add that this was about the 7th hand I was dealt and it was the first hand that I had played since I sat down so I don't beleive my image was that of a bluffer
heads up I will always call you down with two pair, I would have even called you down with one pair considering the pot was so big. You bet your hand the whole way so you did not play that badly, what else could you have done? It was unlikely that anyone else would bet, so a check-raise was out of the question. You did what you had to do and got drawn out on, next hand please.
Oh, and you shouldn't be so surprised that so many people played when you bet 4 on 3rd. It's low limit stud, sounds like you were in a pretty good game so what you complainin' about?
Actually this hand is not very similar to holdem in that the correct play was pretty much clear the whole way - Bet because you probably have the best hand and you have to act first due to your high board and you don't want to give a free card. In holdem the fixed position would have changed things.
The only thing really similar is that you lost to two trashy pair who called you down the whole way even though they were a dog.
Welcome to low limit poker.
Dave in Cali
p.s. your post would have been better suited for the General theory forum.
Also, you BET not RAISED. Raising is when someone else bets, then you raise.
Thanks for clearing that up for me Dave, I just did not realize that stud players were so loose, I have always heard that that is a game where it pays to be a rock.
She most likly had two pair in her 1st 4 cards and her 4s and 8s were live. Were any of your aces out?
My door card was an ace btu she was not a good enough player to realize if her cards were live or not
I hold TT on the button, 4 limpers to me...I limp as well. SB calls, BB checks. 7 players.
Flop: K T 6 rainbow
BB bets out, everybody calls to me...I raise. Should I have called then raised on the turn instead? SB folds, everyone else calls my raise.
Turn: 5 still rainbow
Now it checks to me, and I bet. One early position player calls, everyone else folds. River is a rag, he checks, I bet, he calls. He mucked when I showed my hand. Probably a weak King...I had been playing with him for quite a while, and it was rare for him to fold before the flop.
I'm wondering if perhaps I could have gotten more value for the hand if I had called the flop then raised the turn (assuming it was still bet on the turn). Also, should I have raised pre-flop? Any thoughts? Thanks.
NotQuiteDead
yes with that many players you would want to smooth call the flop and then raise on the turn. you want to trap players into seeing the river.
a many handed, rainbow, no obvious straight sorta flop is exactly the kind where you want to slow down with your set and let everyone put their bets in. you want as many people to see the river as possible hoping for the board to pair so someone will make trips while you are now full. alternate scenario is for someone to make top two pair. lots of money to be made in this kind of situation.
you want to play a set fast when the board is scary: flush draws, likely straight draws, etc. then you want to slow to a crawl when the next flush card or straight card comes in on the turn. as we discussed last week though you rarely want to fold a set, your odds to make a full house on the turn or river are almost always sufficient for a call.
I would have raised preflop. TT can win unimproved against a small field. By alowing 7 people to see the flop you are forcing your hand to improve in order to win. This is because if you get the type of flop that would allow TT to win unimproved (rag, rag, rag) the BB may be playing rag rag because he got to see the flop for free. 5 rags may actually turn into something.
Postflop is no time to get fancy with your set. The only word that should come out of your mouth is RAISE. Don’t give QJ a free card. I tried to go for a check raise the other night and it didn’t work and I ended up giving a free card that beat me. Play your set hard and fast.
First off after four limpers with the blinds likely to call (assuming game was loose), you should definitely have raised pre-flop with your pocket tens. You have some chance of winning unimproved plus you are likely getting enough callers to raise for value just on the chance of flopping a set. Plus you were on the button so you may have bought a free card by raising - another reason to raise. Plus you had position with a good hand preflop. Next time raise.
On the flop you have to raise period. Waiting till the turn to raise will do one thing for you - make you win a SMALLER pot. If someone had reraised you on the flop you would have been in the ideal situation - assuming you made it four bets. People will start dropping like flies on the turn so get their $$ into the pot now while you have the best hand and they are willing to call. Don't for a moment think that waiting till the turn to raise would have been a good idea. RAISE. Play your sets fast on the flop, don't screw around trying to get fancy. Not only are you more likely to get beat, you are more likely going to win a smaller pot.
Bet turn and river, that much is obvious. Raise on turn if given chance.
I would have at least considered a pre-flop raise, if for no other reason than to attack the blinds and possibly get a free card on the flop. However, I don't think this is a huge error one way or the other.
On the flop, I completely agree with the raise. While the flop does not contain a flush draw, at least for now, you have six opponents, including both blinds, and anyone holding AQ,AJ,QJ,Q9,J9,98,97,or 87 has at least a gutshot right now and they're already in for a SB. Make 'em pay to suck out. Granted, they'r probably not going to fold for an additional SB, but that's OK by me. Plus it's likely the turn will create a flush draw for someone. Plus you cannot be certain that the BB will cooperate and bet out for you on the turn, trapping all the callers between him and you.
I think you played the hand fine.
I like the way you played it.
Raising pre-flop is a viable option, but the 4 limpers aren't folding so you'll probably need a set to win. Just calling and allowing the blinds in is fine IMHO. Now if you had been in the cutoff, raising would have had the extra benefit of hopefully buying the button.
On the flop, I think your raise is correct. Granted the board isn't too scary, but why let opponents w/straight possibilities draw cheaply? Also, in low limit many players make loose calls on the flop but tighten up on the turn. Once the BB bet and the others called, your raise got you a lot value as your opponents who called one small bet then likely felt obliged to call one more. Had you not raised the flop, the turn still could have been checked to you. Or the BB might have bet the turn and everyone else folded to you. Most likely, your opponents didn't have much and you got max. value out of the hand.
Caddy
Raise pre-flop. Raise after the flop.
An interesting post with many varied opinions on how to play. I wouldn't raise preflop. With this many players, you will not limit the field. Any flop with an overcard probably will get you bet into so I don't think there is much chance of a free card. With this many callers, I think you have to play the 10's like you play lesser pairs; ie, you need trips to win.
I think your post flop play depends on position and where the bet comes from. In early position with the bettor after me, I check and call setting up a check raise on the turn when the betting limits go up. Given this situation, I like the raise.
Whether or not to raise pre-flop is close given four limpers. But on the flop, I think you must raise given all these opponents and two cards in straight zone plus you have a number of players already tied in for one bet so they will call your raise. Who knows what the turn will bring and whether or not you will be able to keep your market? I might consider a slow play here with pocket Tens and a flop of T52 rainbow since there are very few turn cards that can hurt me but even then with a lot of opponents I would usually raise.
I usually do not appreciate playing a set slow on any particular flop. Usually when I flop a set I have the best hand right there and I like to make people pay for their draws - dead or alive. If I am first to act on the flop, I will always bet out and not opt for the check-raise. If someone raises I can 3-bet. If I am last to act I will always raise and re-raise if there has been a bet. The only time I will slow play a set is if the texture of the flop is so bad I want people to draw for overcards or two pairs come the turn. But once the turn hits,, there is almost always a straight or flush draw and that is when I make them pay double. Never slow play the turn.
Now, for some odd reason, most of the time I flop a set there is usually 2 of a suit or a straight draw on the board. So there is no point slowplaying. They will not pay you off should they miss their draw and will only raise you when they have a hand that can beat your set. Make them pay.
Sets need to be played strong because they are not usually the best hand to start with, but they have the best draw to make a full house. This is especially true if the full house gives someone else a flush. Now when the full house hits, you need to decide whether or not you want to slowplay your hand. Normally I don't because the pots are a good size already.
There is a saying that if you didn't lose a lot of money playing a set, you didn't play it right. It's true...It's true.
The Fish
with KT on the flop you may be facing a strong straight draw in QJ, or Kings up, both of which are easily improved to beat you, especially if you are facing BOTH of them. Raise and get your money in now. Make everyone pay to see the turn and river.
Never check or smooth-call on the button with the best hand when there are multiple players. Two to three handed you can sometimes get away with it but NEVER in a low-limit game where there are lots of people seeing the flop.
In addition, there is a slight chance somebody was trying to slow-play a set of sixes or even slow-play kings up. (Which would be a HUGE mistake but they do it all the time). Raise your middle set and pray for a reraise.
natedogg
I would have raised with TT on the button BTF with 4 limpers. Then a raise on the flop would have been correct to see who chases you.
Since the pot was unraised, you can slowplay your 3 tens on the flop. Wait until the turn to raise because you don't have a flush draw to worry about. Plus, you would like someone to bet a king or even a draw on the turn.
I'm just about to give a try to Paradisepoker, but there are a few questions I'd like to ask to you poker freaks before I take the step. I guess this issue must have been discussed before so I've made up small geberal questions that you can answer in a couple of words.
Here's how I would describe my situation: I'm a fast learning player with a couple of books under my belt but I'm on a limited bankroll so I need to keep my SD pretty low.
Take it as a kind of little survey on Paradise poker! (this way you won't feel like you are giving a potentiel opponent a little edge, :o)) So here are the questions (Since I'm posting in the "small stakes" forum, I'm talking about THE 2/4 3/6 and 5/10, of course!) :
1.How does the style of play in Paradise poker compare to Casinos? Is it much more loose for the same stakes? Is it more agressive?
2.Since you can't pick up tells on players, is it harder to put people on a hand?
3.Would you say it's easier to calculate the odds on paradise since you can talk out loud hidden behind your monitor screen(it can help you and nobody hears), and hold a calculator in your hand? (Two people could even work as a team)
4.Is the Standard deviation very high because of the agressivness of the players?
5.Would you recommand playing online poker given the possibility of collusion and other inconvinients?
Ok that's about it. I just want to get a picture!
By the way I'd like to say this forum is great and thanks to all the posters. This is the second time I post here and I was very pleased with your answers to my firt post! Thanks! :o)
I hope pretty soon I will be answering questions instead of asking.
David Saintonge Positive Vibration!
Well if you play 5/10 Hold'em as well as I do then all you need is $300 to start and then keep around $1500 in your account. But as you say, I am a "freak." I have lost over $300 on a bad day, but I haven't had many bad days.
Play tight and don't push your edges to the limit each time for lower SD.
Good Luck, CV
"1.How does the style of play in Paradise poker compare to Casinos? Is it much more loose for the same stakes? Is it more agressive?"
-tighter much more aggressive on average
"2.Since you can't pick up tells on players, is it harder to put people on a hand?"
There are records of everyone's called hands so once yo do some research it is easier.
"Would you say it's easier to calculate the odds on paradise since you can talk out loud hidden behind your monitor screen(it can help you and nobody hears), and hold a calculator in your hand? (Two people could even work as a team).
Get some charts, poker odds are simple for the most part. The pot is already counted. I vote against talking out loud. I vote against using a "team". Do it on your own and you will be better off in the long run. If you know a good player, send them your hand records for analysis.
4.Is the Standard deviation very high because of the agressivness of the players?
Your bankroll will go up and down like Asia Carrera. Prepare for massive swings.
"5.Would you recommand playing online poker given the possibility of collusion and other inconvinients?"
I think its a great innovation. The risk of collusion is high. I know of two professional winning players who got destroyed online. It's your money and your choice. Don't come in expecting to beat the games with no experience.
Overall, online offers many advantages, but I think the live game is ultimately the one to master. Remember there are many other sites as well. Truepoker.com is opening mid January or later as well.
Good luck.
i enjoy internet pp poker ;overall i feel the games are beatable tight , but sometimes very aggressive before the flop, but more passive (checked out) after the flop when at least two players should have been "protecting their equity" or "thinning the field". i also feel my game has improved as i "look down" on the table and perhaps can better understand the effect my position at the table is ...I am affraid of collusion but do not know what to do about iy...gl
Hi David!
Here's my input:
1. I think the games at Paradise are much tougher and much more aggressive than the ones I've seen in casinos. It is a rare occurance to see a flop fo 1 bet. Thus many adjustments have to be made. Of course, you still have those clowns that give us money. Planet games are MUCH softer. Very different. I think the big money to be made here commes in playing better post-flop.
2. Tells are a part of poker, BUT, they are not the essence of the game. You need to pick up betting patterns, smell the weaks, smell a check-raise etc... This can be done as easily online.
3.Once you grasp the mental count of bets in a pot, it's the same in live or net games. Of course you can always have a cheat sheet beside you when you play online. The point is, you should get to a point where you know every odds by heart and you know what's in the pot.
4.Since Paradise games are much more aggressive, yes the variance and SD are higher. I'd add, MUCH higher than Planet.
5. I think a good player can do well online, collusion or not. What I do is I scroll over every player on my table and if I see 2 players from the same small town I move to another table, usually. I mean what are that odds that 2 players from Kyerfot are playing on the same table without knowing each other...
I'd recommend playing on Planet if you want softer games. I think Paradise can be as profitable, you just need more bankroll. I play both, It gives me the opportunity to adjust my game plan according to 2 very different styles. Of course the number of tables at Paradise is much much higher.
See you there...
ThePrince
nt
1. Yes, it is more loose and more aggressive. People draw out on you all the time with trash. Don't even try and protect unless you can make some of the opponents have to call 2 or 3 raises cold. Very few will drop for a single raise. Casinos are the same but to a lesser degree.
2. Tells aren't a major part of the game. Hand reading is much more applicable. But you have to get to know your opponents a bit to get a read on what their bets mean. Loosey goosey's (LG's) are impossible to read. But for non LG's after you've seen some hands at showdown and remember how they bet the hand (called a raise BTF or raised BTF etc.), you'll be able to put them on a range of hands given the way they bet.
3. Yes
4. Yes - but not the reason is not limited to the aggressiveness of the players. Implicit collusion (LG's) drive SD up. I would surmize there is no explicit collusion at the .50/1.00 level but you never know - may be this is where players practice collusion.
5. I played it for a while and got killed. Lost $500 in about 50 hours playing 2/4 and 3/6. I gave it up just for that reason - collusion and/or blatant cheating (some of the draws I just couldn't believe). Just last night I'm back playing only .50/1.00. I want/need better skills and this is a convenient cheap way to develop them and memorize DS starting hand rankings. And learn to consistently pay attention to factors that are significant in making decisions (pot odds, hand odds, bluff odds, when to bluff, scare cards and tons of stuff). Take notes and refer to them often so you can practice paying attention to what matters and not ignoring things that could impact your decisions.
See at the tables!
-Michael
Great comments, all. I've been playing a fair amount at the 2/4 hold'em and stud tables on PP. I think there are a couple of differences that should be mentioned. Online, one can play much faster than live, and this affects your game. There's no shuffling, dealing, waiting for dealers to change, washing the deck, waiting for new players to sit down, counting chips, making change, collecting the cards, ordering drinks, or any of that. 60 hands per hour is normal, and it can go to 80 or more at times. This means that if you're a winning player, your hourly rate is higher. Obviously, if you're losing, you'll also lose more per hour. Of course, it brings that "long run" that everyone is searching for a lot closer, which is probably good. A bad effect that the speed can have is that if/when you go on tilt or start playing badly, it'll hurt you that much more. Say you go on tilt after a bad beat, and the psychological funk you're in lasts an hour. You'll play badly for 60 hands, which can cost you a bunch of money in a hurry. Be careful of this. And watch for it in other players.
Another difference is the rake and betting structure. Obviously different casinos are different, and paradise is no exception. I think that their rake is generally smaller, and the antes generally larger than in live casinos. (I will admit that I don't have firsthand knowledge of that many live casinos, so someone may correct me here) Both of these factors point to reducing your starting requirements. Be careful, though, as loosy-goosy play will be punished.
Third, table selection is a lot easier online, since there are so many tables and you can change so easily. Paradise even provides little statistics about the tables in the 'lobby' screen. I think that players who don't take great advantage of this feature are costing themselves money. In live play, you'll stick it out at a bad table longer because it's a pain to move if there is even another one available. At PP, you're a couple clicks away from a better table.
Fourth, as was mentioned, the hand history availability is probably a great resource. I know I don't use it enough, but I'm sure that good players ought to be able to learn a lot about their games and their opponents from this.
-solublefish
After every session at Paradise I download the session hands. Using Word I then cut and paste all my losing hands into a seperate file. When done put it into columns (Format/Columns to save paper),.
THEN - I go through each loser and see where I went wrong. many times I find nothing wrong at all but then I do see skrew ups.
After a winning session it brings me back to earth and after a losing session I can see where I went wrong.
David,
Hi.
The games are much tougher than in Casinos. View a $2/4 game as a very good 5/10 in real life; view a 5/10 as a 15-30, (based on money per hour and toughness of play).
David Sklansky wrote somewhere (in the archives) that 90% will lose. I think that number is 95%.
The game is very very very fast. Both in time and in agressiveness. If you pick the wrong table -- based upon your self-profile -- you will get killed pretty quickly. If you pick a 'good' table, you will die a slower death, with lots of roller coaster...but the games are very tough.
This is an attempt to help you: Play the .50/1 game. Play ultratight and ultra agressive if you get a hand. If you cannot beat this game: Quit. If you can, take your winnings and play $2/4.
I have played and won at Casinos for years. I could not beat the paradise $5/10 game; I could and did beat 2/4 and 3/6, and my game got much stronger than it had ever been. I left a small (for me) winner. I don't play due to my beliefs about collusion.
And good luck.
Mark
1.How does the style of play in Paradise poker compare to Casinos? Is it much more loose for the same stakes? Is it more agressive?
hey david. let me preface this by saying that the casino that i frequent is supposedly very tough. that said, i think that your average paradise player is loose/ aggressive. it has taken me a while to figure this out, but i really believe that almost every player there bluffs too often. more then they do in live games. this can get nasty for a few reasons. first of all, it is more difficult to put your opponent on a hand. second, it reinforces poor poker skills in you because you see people winning with garbage on a regular basis. finally, i think that psychologically, you are even one more step away from what your money bet really is (chips in a casino being the first step away), and it makes chasing cards that much easier.
that said, there is obviously money to be made from players who bet at too many pots. i got my brains beaten in for a while. i think that i have finally adjusted, though, and i've been winning very consistently.
2.Since you can't pick up tells on players, is it harder to put people on a hand?
no. just like in a ring game, you will be able to sort out a basic understanding of a person's style within the first half hour or so. if you can adjust to players in a live game as well as reconstruct their hands, you will do fine.
3.Would you say it's easier to calculate the odds on paradise since you can talk out loud hidden behind your monitor screen(it can help you and nobody hears), and hold a calculator in your hand? (Two people could even work as a team)
i agree with the above poster. i would try to do as you would in a casino. it scares me to think that paradise could make me a lazy player.
4.Is the Standard deviation very high because of the agressivness of the players?
YES
5.Would you recommand playing online poker given the possibility of collusion and other inconvinients?
sure. low rake, no tips, and the bathroom is just a few feet away...
don't worry about collusion. sklansky has written many convincing posts on this forum that argue that if you are a good solid player, you will still have the best of it. also, i think that the risk of collusion is low at the smaller tables.
just play solid poker. don't play any differently than you would in a regular game. i think that most people do, which explains the loose/ aggressive games.
best of luck.
This is a 3-6 game. I am in middle position with a pair of eights. Pre flop, I just call. No raises. Flop is JQ7 rainbow. Small blind bets, big blind calls, I fold and everybody else folds too. Turns is a three. SB checks, BB checks. River is a six, no flush possible. SB checks, BB checks. Small blind shows a 7-4 off suit and wins. BB blind does not show. I had the winning hand. Was I right to fold. Is the right play to bet any piece of the flop. I don't do it. I don't play over cards either. If I raise with AK. and I miss, I fold. So I get very upset when I see the kind of play that small blind made. Comments, criticism, advise, are welcome. Thanks everyone, and thanks 2+2.
Hi..
You failed to mention how many players took the flop but I'll assume that there were at least 5 since you said you folded on the flop as did everyone else except for the blinds. Anyway, it doesn't make any difference about the SB's play since you were at least 4. You also did not mention what kind of players your opponents were but let's assume typical opponents or opponents you don't know.
That being said, I think the SB played very poorly, at least on the flop. Betting out into a field of at least three, probably more opponents with third pair is pretty bad play. With this many opponents, there is a good chance his pair is no good (yours too...).
In his position I'd check top pair weak kicker to see where I stand (with this many opponents). I'd never bet middle or bottom pair. I think this is a way to lose money IMO. Did he really think he could win the pot right there with this many opponents?
You were certainly right to fold. You basically want a set or overpair with 88. You played fine. Hope you remember this play the next time this player bets out.
There are times to play overcards but always folding when you miss is a good way to not get into trouble.
royally yours,
ThePrince
In middle position in a low-stakes game, I would raise with pocket snowmen, if you don't raise you have to fold them, especially with limpers seated to your right. Not raisinf probably cost you the pot.
And yes with TWO overcards on the flop, you were right to fold.
Altough he did not mention how many players limped before him or has the table was generally acting (tight/loose-passive/aggressive), I disagree that you should raise with pocket eights. In fact, from any position, usually.
By raising you cut down your implied odds and you'll usually get 3 opponents which is the worse case scenario with a medium or low pocket pair. You'd better be heads-up or have a large field to ensure profit from many opponents if you flop your set.
Izmet Fekali does a really good job of explaining this concept on his web site. www.fekali.com.
If the table is loose then limp in, if the table is tight then the correct play could be to fold. It depends. IMO, having only 3 typical opponents will cost you money.
royally yours,
ThePrince
I disagree. If the most likely result of open-raising with 88 gets it head-up or 3-way and the second most likely result is that you steal the blinds then you should raise with 88 regardless of your position. If the pot was already opened and limping would likely make if 4-way I'd at least limp. Eights aren't great but they're still too good to fold for one bet.
I'm sorry Chris, but, since when can you steal the blinds in low-limit? The blinds are generally too loose to fold that frequently for it to make raising a good play.
ThePrince
Online
Izmet does a great job of explaining something no one else talks about.
If you have multiple limpers before you, IT IS higher EV to limp-reraise with ANY pocket pairs over 7's (being prepared to fold them if you don't make your set and feel that you are dominated.) Yes you will lose lots of money doing this, but when you make your set you more than make up for all the losses. (This is super-high variance and I don't do it. I just limp.)
Raising after multiple limpers may win you more pots than limp-reraisng, but the pots won't be nearly as big. (And you may tempted to play longer than you should)
AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT are all drawing hands in Low Limit hold'em, and you are looking to make a set. Although you may get lucky and have your AA, KK hold up.
Now someone else said that if you can get headsup or 3 handed then raise. That may win you more pots, but why would you do that when limping is higher EV??????
I am in Houston, TX and am looking for a small game to get in. I am 19 and looking to gain some experience by playing in a few small games. If anyone can help please email me. Thank you very much! Mike
I too am under the legal gambling age although I live reletively close to an indian casino and they allow people 18 and up to gamble so if you know of one of these casinos in your area, check it out otherwise you are stuck playing home games, and as you propably know they are no where near the same kind of experience that playing in a card room is. Good Luck
Yesterday I sat down in a short-handed game and quickly realized that it is much different than a full ring-game. It seems as though the best style to play this kind of game would be to raise when you have any kind of advantage or are on any kind of draw because it is so easy to bluff players out of pots (I seemed to be the player getting bluffed out).
So my question to all of you short-handed experts is,
What kind of hands should I begin to play that I normally would not?
Can you give me some help on how to play against players who are super-aggresive on each hand?
What´s your definition of shorthanded? For some it´s a total of 7 players and less, for me it´s 5 and less.
But very generally speaking: value of suitedness and connectedness goes down, value of high cards goes up, small pocket pairs go down but up again when it´s 3 and 2-handed.
I am in the small blind with 8-10h, no raise before the flop in a 3-6 hold'em game, 7 callers. average game, average players. The flop is 9s 7s 2c, I check, #4 seat bets, everybody calls. The turn is Qd, I check, everybody checks. The river is 3s, I bet and everybody falls. Did I bet this hand correctly on every round, having an open end straight. Was the bet on the river a must bet for me, because of my position? Comments please and thank you.
Yes, this was a good bluff. When the turn is checked around, it usually means that nobody has a hand worth betting. This doesn't include drawing hands, but if you bet on the end into several opponents when the flush card hits, better hands (such as middle pair, even ace high) can't call. (Sklansky concept) If you check, you can't call if there's a bet, you could only check-raise bluff, which won't be profitable since most 3-6 players won't lay down a hand for a single bet on the end, especially with as many bets in the pot as you had described. And, if nobody bets, you have no chance at all. If you held AK - AT, a check and a prayer might be okay, but I would still bet. Good bluff.
Was this a good bluff? Well let's see here. We have 7 opponents and a two flush flopped. The flop gets bet and all 7 opponents call. It is hard to believe that no one is on a flush draw. Now a Queen comes on the turn which is an over card to the flop and everyone checks. At the river, a Spade arrives which will almost always give someone a flush in this situation. When you bet you were representing a flush and apparently no one had anything so you were able to pull this off. I would be surprised if this move would work one time in thirty given the board and the number of opponents you had. I think it is an awful bluff but nothing succeeds like success.
In response to Jim Brier: I agree with you Jim. The second after I made the bet, I was sorry I did. I was surprised when nobody called me. I make play like this sometimes, and I am not happy about it. I feel like i am gambling, not playing poker. Most of the times I lose the hand, when I bet this way, not thinking. If I lose, I think it was worth the try , but when I win, I don't know if it was the correct play. I see that I have a lot to learn, and even that I have been playing for a long time, may be I will never be great at it. The only thing that makes stay in the game, is that I don't see too many players smarter than me. Than you for you response, Jim, It was great, I enjoyed. Hope to hear from you again. peter.
B4 the flop there's 7 small bets int he pot, after the flop, another 7 small bets, and no other bets after that.
That means there's 7 big bets when you make your move, so it has to be a winning play more than 1 time in 7 , am I right there?
Of course that play won't be succesful often enough to justify trying a bluff there. Hope my logic is ok!
David
Your logic is fine David.
Yes the bluff would have to work more than 1 time in 7 to be profitable.
The problem here is the number of opponents. No way (except here) that they all fold at least in a typical game.
The magic number is usually 2 opponents. More than that, no matter what is in the pot, the chances of pulling this play goes way down.
ThePrince
1-4-8-8 typical No Fold’em Hold’em at Harrahs in New Orleans. In BB with As6s. 2 limpers to SB who raises. Far as I can tell the SB would not raise w/o pairs or big connected cards. Is this worth a call? Thanks
I think that A's small suited hands, are the biggest loser hands in this game. Very few times you make the nut flush you are hopping for, and most of the time you get trap, with aces and no kicker. or a small pair with no flushes possibble, hopping to get an ace for two pair, etc. etc etc. I have learn to hate this hands, and even that is not easy to do, I do not play them , except on the button with a lot of people in the hand. Any comments anybody????
Not if it was a maximum raise, but you didn't specify.
Probably not in any case, though. This hand wants to see the flop cheaply with as many opponents as possible. When you can't do that, dump it.
It matters less what the raiser has than it does how many opponents you will get. If you somehow knew that he had AA, but he only raised the minimum and you also somehow knew that everyone at the table was going to call (and no one was going to re-raise), then you should probably play it. This will not normally be the case.
David
I will assume that small blind raised the maximum of $5 making the total bet $6. Assuming the blinds are $1 and $2 with two limpers this means the pot has $12 and it costs you another $4 right now. Can you assume that the limpers will call the raise? If so this means that the pot will have another $4 put in by each limper. Therefore, if you call you would be getting $20:$4 or about 5:1 to play Ace-Little suited. Now in a normal $4-$8 game, I would call every time since I know that the two limpers will always call and therefore I would be getting $28:$4 or 7:1 on my call to take a flop and see 3 cards. With Ace-Little suited I could flop a flush draw or a top pair of Aces. The top pair of Aces may be good but I could be badly dominated by the pre-flop raiser, especially one from the small blind who is usually marked with a premium hand (AA,KK,QQ,AK). This is where being able to play well post flop becomes important meaning that I have the good sense to get off my top pair/no kicker hand if I encounter any serious heat. In this situation, getting only 5:1 on my call part of the time and even less than this if one or both limpers decide not to play makes the decision harder. I would probably call but folding is reasonable.
I've never actually played spread limit. Do limpers (for the minimum) really tend to call raises (for the maximum)?
In my answer I assumed they wouldn't. If they would, I've got to find me one of these games. :-)
David
Here in Vegas they spread $1-$4-$8-$8 all over town. The blinds are $1 and $2 and you can limp in for $2 or raise all the way up to $6. Believe it or not is quite common for players to limp in for $2 and call a raise back to them for another $4. This is why a game like this can be typically beaten for $8-$12 per hour and there are players who make a modest living just playing $1-$4-$8-$8.
This is pretty much an academic discussion because it happens so rarely, but I'd like to know peoples opinon on it.
I don't play that much omaha anymore, but my instincts were telling me to get out of this hand because I knew I couldn't win the pot outright and I'd have to pay off a lot of hands. The situation is this, you have AA, and you know you are against AA or KK but your are 90% sure it's AA. There are three other players out there with draws. Lets say you are against two underpairs and an outside straight draw. So your odds are cut in half from the start, and you'll be forced to pay off a lot of hands.
Flop is 972o. You (AA) are against (AA), T8, Q9, and K7. The Q9 and K7 are idiots and will call to the river and only pay off if they make 2-pair or better; the AA will raise at any point. KQJ976 will break you. That's 18 outs with two cards to come. You get half when 21/39*21/39. So 29% of the time you'll get half the pot. There's 22 small bets in the pot. All will call to the river and fold if they miss and raise at any point if they hit (i.e. you can leave).
My questions are?
It's a 6-12 table I'm in middle position with black AA. This is the action (number is position after button) 3. UTG (loose-average and easily bluffed) calls. 4. Next player (tight-average and on tilt) calls. 5. I'm next and raise (I've only capped a flop in this game twice, one with AKs, the other time with KK). 7. Idiot (loose-passive) calls 0. Button calls 2. BB (will three bet a flop with AA, KK, or Axs [yeah really, saw him call with QQ and three bet with A6s]) three-bets. 3 & 4 call I cap All call.
Flop is 9 7 2 rainbow. 2 bets. 3 & 4 call. I raise. 7 calls. Button (0) folds. 2 raises. 3 & 4 call again. I cap. All call
Here are my reads. 2 has AA or KK, but my table image is that tight and easily slowed down, so I put him on KK [you can't put him on AA]. 3 has top pair or T8 (he wouldn't stand the heat without it) 4 has an under pair or T8 7 has an under pair or T8
Turn is a J. 2 bets out again. 3 & 4 still call (no T8 anywhere). I raise again. 7 folds. 2 raises. 3 & 4 call. I cap (this was stupid as I gain no information by this). All call.
River is a 9.
2 bets out. 3 folds. 4 raises. I muck. 2 calls.
2 had AA. 4 had J9.
Low limit online game. A very unusually good online game with 6 people often seeing the flop, very little raising pre-flop, people playing K6o early, etc.
I get 77 on the button. 4 people call, then UTG raises. I would make 6, I know one or two of the blinds will play, and the others will call, so I would make 7. I ponder and ponder -- I know that raiser has a real hand -- no one has raised but me in the last 20 minutes pre-flop, and then I fold. I know that I am getting about pot odds on hitting a set, which I think I need to win, with the 2 outer; and I would expect to fold if the flop doesn't hit.
How close is this? Should I fold? What about the expectation if I do hit? What is that worth? (Of course I would have hit a very interesting flop -- AK7! and then an A, then a J, but no one had AK, AJ, AA or KK; raiser had KQs -- and I would have won a harrowing but very large pot.)
Help!
Mark
I assume you made a mistake and meant that the cutoff raises before you not UTG.
In that case I would call if I could expect 7:1 pre-flop.
My question is if you call preflop with 7BB in the pot, do you continue to take one off if everyone checks to the raiser and you know over half will call for 1 bet?
I assume so. So lets say the turn is something weak and everyone checks to the raiser again and now there is 10BB in the pot (6 people saw the turn).
Do you call and see river? Lets add you have a gutshot straight draw. Does this change your decision? A 7 hitting the river could then makes someone elses straight.
There is a difference between a scenario where the UTG opens with a raise and a bunch of players cold-call versus a bunch of limpers and then the guy to your right (the cutoff in this case) now raises. In the former case, the pot is unlikely to get re-raised unless one of the blinds happens to have a hand. In the latter, the pot can get re-raised by one of the limpers. You really don't want to end up paying 3,4, or 5 bets to take a flop with this hand if you can avoid it.
I think calling two bets cold with a small or medium pocket pair and a lot of players is borderline. If it is the type of game where players will go too far with their hands and you can expect to get payed off heavily when you flop a set then calling is okay but I still don't believe folding is all that bad.
Jim,
What about 88?
What about 88 with UTG limp and one raise to the right?
Would 99 work with this few players?
Certainly 10, 10 would.
Just looking for some advice to tighten up my game in this area.
-captain
I normally don't like cold-calling a raise without a hand I would raise with myself unless there happens to be a lot of players. With pocket Eights facing an early limper and then a raiser with no other players in the hand, I will usually fold unless I know the raiser to be a loose goose in which case I might even 3 bet to get the blinds and the limper out. Pocket Nines is borderline and I think calling is usually okay. With pocket Tens I would call every time.
After playing another 1-4-8-8 hold 'em game, this time at Monte Carlo, I'm beginning to think that all the books I have read on poker don't apply to low limit.
I lost with AK vs AJ, AK vs K7 off suit and KK vs QQ. The only one that really bothered me was the AK vs the K7 offsuit. He calls a raise before the flop in early position.
The KK hand there were 7 player before the flop. I had KK in the SB and QQ raised in the cut off seat. I was going to reraise but didn't like my position and I figured no one was going to drop anyway.
You should have re-raised with the KK whether or not anyone drops. You have the best hand and the most to gain by raising. You are an underdog against a collective but your are the individual favorite. When you win, which will not be often, you will win huge and more than make up for other times when you lose one extra bet by 3 betting pre-flop. Think about this way. If you are not willing to re-raise with your best hands like AA and KK, what hands do you re-raise with or do you simply give up re-raising altogether?
The $1-$4-$8-$8 game that is spread around Vegas is a very beatable game over many hundreds of hours of play unless you are a real statistical deviate and have just horrible luck all the time.
After finally approaching the 500 hour mark for time played in low limit games, I am realizing that the old adage that good play wins in the long run is true. It is also true that you will face significant variances in standard deviation at the low limits. Don't abandon the concepts that you have learned and it will work out for you in the long run.
I agree with Jim on re-rasing with the kings. You don't say how the queens beat you. If the holder floped trip q then that's just poker. However, if he caught them on the turn or river, it is possible that a re-raise pre-flop and a bet or raise on the flop could have got him to lay them down and given you the pot. Not likely, but possible.
The lady caught a queen on the turn. This lady just sat down and I was 99% sure that a re raise wasn't going to get her to lay her hand down.
The main reason I didn't reraise was because I was in the small blind. I have heard much discussion about raising in the blinds. I decided that this was a time not to raise.
When a raise pre flop doesn't move K7 off suit , it's not going to move a big pocket pair.
I'm not saying that low limit isn't beatable. I just think that picking good starting hands and playing predictable, solid poker is the way to beat it.
A reraise in the sb(w/ KK) after the cutoff raises is practically mandatory, IMO, in any limit.
Force the other players, not necessarily the QQ, to play really bad poker by calling two bets w/ their crap hands.
The money they lose, individually, by calling will be redistributed to you eventually if you continue to play good poker. If they fold, you've got a huge advantage over QQ.
Every player that folds in that situation increases your advantage.
.
That's poker. Every single person in this forum can recall a night like you describe.
I played from 11pm to 8am this Friday night. I had AA-QQ cracked 6 times, 5 on the river. Big pocket pairs were not good once, even headsup. I had good hands run down at least 12-15 times by crap.
People were nailing 4 and 6 outers against me like mad. I once even joked, "I'd be a winning player if I could just figure out how to hit my 38 outers!"
Fortunately, it was a very live game (about 5 straddles per round) and I hit some good draws and only ended up down $25.
But I wish I could play in that game EVERY session. If my good hands had been run down 8-10 times instead of 12-15, I'd leave up 4 racks easy.
And I have, just not that night. Can't wait to try again!
2-4 typical condition game. I am in big blind with 10 8 offsuit. Preflop, A mid position(MP) person called, button called, so does the small blind. Flop is 789o. SB check, I bet, MP called, button called, SB folded. Fourth street is a 10. I check, MP bet, button folds, and I called. River is a rag. No flush possibility on board. I check, MP bet, and I called. I am wondering if there's a better way of playing this hand.
I don't know if I really see any thing wrong with how you played. The only alternatives that I see would be to lead on the turn or check raise. You could make arguments for each however both are very agressive plays in the face of either trips or a straight. If you had a read on the raiser that he was a very tight player, you could also probably justify a fold on the turn
(n/t)
Hi everyone...
In HPFAP21, S&M advise to basically cold call a raise with only groups 1 and 2. Of course, this is more or less suited for lower limits but still, I think the general concept applies. You need a pretty good hand to cold call a raise.
Of course this depends on the raiser and what type of player he or she is.
Let's take an exemple, you're playing online and you have no clue what type of player the raiser is. Let's assume that the raiser is always in early position (but again you don't know the player). Let's assume the game is somewhat loose but not too much. Usually 3-4 players see the flop when it'raised BTF. (As Paradise)
Do you call a raise when :
1. it's folded to you in MP, you have JTs.
2. it's folded to you in MP, you have AQo.
3. it's folded to you in MP, you have 77.
4. 2 players cold called, you are in LP, you have JTs.
5. 2 players cold called, you are in LP, you have AQo.
6. 2 players cold called, you are in LP, you have 77.
7. Do you always call a raise when you limped and then someone raised after ?
All of these hands could be dominated.
Comments anyone?
Thanks,
Royally yours,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Hey Prince,
Here are my low-limit answers:
1. it's folded to you in MP, you have JTs.
If I'm pretty sure there will be 2 more callers (but no raises) behind me, I will call. Since I'm going for the str8 or the flush, being dominated by AJ or something is not really relevant. But when in doubt about more callers, fold.
2. it's folded to you in MP, you have AQo.
If the raiser is tight, I would fold, if he's loose, I reraise.
3. it's folded to you in MP, you have 77.
Fold, 77 is clearly weaker than JTs.
4. 2 players cold called, you are in LP, you have JTs.
Call because of reasons given above.
5. 2 players cold called, you are in LP, you have AQo.
Fold.
6. 2 players cold called, you are in LP, you have 77.
Call if you expect the BB to call, and continue only when you hit a set. The odss even with 4 opps are not quite good enough, but you do expect lots of action if you do make a set.
7. Do you always call a raise when you limped and then someone raised after ?
If there's no possibility of another raise, yes.
I agree with Steven's take on those hands, but with certain addendums. 2. AQo MP - no callers yet - "reraise if raiser is loose, fold if raiser is tight": agreed, but do not reraise if players behind you are exceptionally loose, you do not want to play this hand in a big multiway pot. 3. 77 MP- no callers yet- "fold" - I agree, unless players behind you are exceptionally tight(and the raiser is loose) or exceptionally loose. I believe you have the advantage heads up against a loose raiser(so reraise), and would get the odds if four called behind you(possible call).
You may doubt the existence of these kinds of tables I mentioned, but the point is that one of the keys to playing these hands in middle position is what the players behind you would do, IMO. Please give feedback.
I agree with Steven's take on those hands, but with certain addendums. 2. AQo MP - no callers yet - "reraise if raiser is loose, fold if raiser is tight": agreed, but do not reraise if players behind you are exceptionally loose, you do not want to play this hand in a big multiway pot.
I agree with your addendum!
3. 77 MP- no callers yet- "fold" - I agree, unless players behind you are exceptionally tight(and the raiser is loose) or exceptionally loose. I believe you have the advantage heads up against a loose raiser(so reraise), and would get the odds if four called behind you(possible call).
I don't think you have an advantage headsup: against two overcards the advantage is minimal, against a higher pair you're in bad shape, and only when the raiser has something like Ax suited with x<7 are you a favorite.
I'm not absolutely sure, but I think you are a favorite heads-up. Derrick quotes a 11 to 10 favorite as "the best I could hope for."
I believe he's referring to the overcards he has down in his post.
I know that a 22 is a 52% favorite over an AKo(heads up).
Yes, so you are a small favorite in certain cases but a big dog in others. That's why folding is the best.
n/t
I assume when you say it is folded to you, you mean that an early position player raised and then everyone folds to you. If this is the case I would fold all of the above hands and scenarios. If I don't know a player I would assume that he is a solid player, so if he raises from an early position I would put him on one of the following hands: AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or TT. If I had 7's the best I could hope for is a 11 to 10 favorite heads up. With other cold callers I am probably a dog. JTs is a dog to all of the above hands and dominated by many. With AQ the best I could hope for is the raiser has an under pair, so it is not good enough to call.
Just my thoughts.
Derrick
Betting a 4-flush on the flop against 4 opponents is very often correct. However, in the following hand I just checked my flush draw, and I think in that case checking was warranted. I wonder if anyone disagrees:
It was my first hand and I posted $3 in middle position. 2 limp in before me, I check my 7h6h, 1 more limper, the SB folds, BB checks. 5 people take the flop, which comes Kh Qh 3s.
Now the BB and the 2 limpers check. Of course, if I had Ah6h, I would not hesitate to bet since I'm drawing to the nut flush and my A overcard might give me some more outs.
Here however, I'm drawing to a low flush and the probability of winning with that flush should be discounted. In fact, the probability that one of my opps has 2 hearts, given the 2 in my hand and the 2 on the flop, is about 13%. Moreover, I don't have any additional outs (ok, not counting 2 running 6's or 7's).
Who would bet here? Notice, this is low limit, so 'winning the pot right there' wouldn't work even given the 3 checks. Also, I wouldn't be happy to have 2 people fold...I need them to pay for my flush draw!
[the result is not important, but I give it anyway for the incurably curious:
Guy behind me checked. Turn is another 3 (off suit). 2 check, guy to my right bets, I call, only BB calls. River: the 4h, hurray!
Turn bettor bets, I raise, BB folds, I win with my flush over trip 3's.]
Steven
You have to bet that hand. No one showed any strength before the flop, and with a KQ flop that's been checked to you, chances are good that you have the best hand. With a flush draw, a backdoor straight draw and the possibility of bluffing your opponents, bet until someone shows you the error of your ways. Plus in a loose 3-6 game, if someone before you had even a weaker flush draw than yours, you can be sure that they would have bet it. Just my thoughts, there are better players than me who can elaborate on that hand.
mk wrote:
"chances are good that you have the best hand"
My draw may be the best, but at this point everybody else beats me, and so I really need to get my flush.
"With a flush draw, a backdoor straight draw and the possibility of bluffing your opponents"
I again disagree: there is no possibility of bluffing the opponents here. And the backdoor str8 is a bit too little for me: note there is a big difference between having a 5 on the flop when holding 67, and a 3. In the latter case you have only a chance of 8/47*4/46=1.5% to hit.
"Plus in a loose 3-6 game, if someone before you had even a weaker flush draw than yours, you can be sure that they would have bet it"
A weaker flush? 5 high? Maybe you mean a higher flush draw would have bet. Maybe!
Steven
You raise once your flush is complete after the board had paired, but you did not bet the flush draw. Obviously you thought the flush was good on the river, why not bet the draw with 4 other opponents you have already shown that you know that this is a +EV play.
I agree with Derrick...
You should ram and jam with draws as long as you have pos EV. If you think that 3 players are going to call your bet, then bet. If you think only 2 will call, then it doesn't matter one way or the other, except if you think betting increases your implied odds (will opponents call further bets because the pot is bigger? ). If it gets raised then reraise if you still think you'll get enough customers. Even if it is not the nut draw, the chances of 2 flush draws against eachother is remote and should not be considered.
Plus betting here could set up a steal on the next round and gives your flush deception should you hit. Even in low-limit, this works well.
Royally yours,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Well, you can't have it both ways, Steven. Yes, in a perfect world, you have multiple opponents sucking along to give you correct odds, if you get paid off, but if no one else starts the betting, you sometimes have to do it yourself.
Back to this hand. Two limpers in front of you with prospects of a couple behind you, perhaps, in a loose, passive game, I don't think limping in with suited touching is a big error, one way or the other. You would prefer to be later with a bigger field, perhaps, but them's the breaks.
Now on this flop, when the BB and two early players don't bet, I would semi-bluff here every time. You have only 1 player behind you, and if he doesn't have a king or a big draw, it's hard for him to call. If he raises, he shouldn't, and I say shouldn't because I know how the LL players act sometimes, have a heart draw. He should have value, and if he's on a draw, he should be calling to encourage players behind him to limp in, right? Doesn't always work that way, but that's the theory. In this situation, I want the player behind me out, so I have control of the hand, and the button on the turn.
I know it's LL, but if they've got nothing, they've got nothing. Look at the guy with the 33. Is he going to call the turn in a small pot? Maybe he doesn't have the 3h, so he's drawing to maybe a 1-outer. My guess is you would have won the pot right there. If not, you've got outs if called, in all liklihood.
On this particular hand, if he does call and hits his miracle on the turn, you are going to get check-raised if you carry through with a turn bet heads-up, but you will be rewarded on the river. Ta-da! That'll teach the guy for chasing. Draw, re-draw. That's poker. But don't just sit there waiting for things to happen.
As an aside, how did you get your 13% figure for the chances that someone else in a 5-player field has 2 hearts? Assuming that's correct, roughly 9 times out of ten you are the only one chasing hearts, so when the flush comes, you will be the likely winner. If you are worried about getting beat by a bigger flush, dont' play anything below Kxs. But we both know that's the wrong thinking. Suited connectors have value in the right situations, but they do occasionally lose to bigger flushes. Oh well.
I just did a simple calculation:
The probability that a specific opponent has 2 hearts is 9/47 * 8/46 = 3.33%, and that he does not have it, is 1-0.0333=96.67%.
The probability that 4 opponents do not have 2 hearts is then approximately (note the probabilities are actually not independent!) (1-0.0333)^4=87.3%, leaving about 12.7% for at least one of 4 to have 2 hearts. You get a similar but too high number by simply multiplying 3.33% by 4.
Dunc,
Ok, I see now that even the 13% discount is not enough not to bet! Next time, I'll bet.
Note by the way that I posted, so I didn't limp in!
Steven
Sorry, I missed that. But that begs the question: why would you voluntarily post in middle position when your blind are coming up presumably in 2 or 3 hands?
I think this has been discussed before on the forum, but if you have to post as a new player in the game, I would come in in the cut-off seat after the button has passed. But then we wouldn't have a story, would we?
Right! And stories are important too-)
Bet it without any hesitation . especcialy in smaller limit where yu know that the other player will call with the 2nd or 3rd pair with the expectation to improve in a triple or 2 pairs without to consider te pot odds. The only time I wouldn't bet it , is when I have a maniac at my left who will bet more than 50% of teh time and trap everybody . If the the flop is check you could give to someone a runner-runner flush ace high , that is why you have to bet it ...If you have it Ace-high You must bet it and reraise it when there are 2 other peoples in the hand ... I haven't read other messages in this tread , but I am pretty sure they think the same has me ...
Here's the situation: I am in UTG position with TT. I raise, button called, big blind called, everyone else fold. Flop is Ks9h7c, big blind check, I bet, button fold, BB called. Turn is a Qs. Big blind check, and I checked here(planning to call the river if BB bet, to check if BB check). My question is that whether I should make a bet on the turn, and fold if raised. This table is full of people that would raise or check raise on a good draw. If in a normal typical game, should I do the same on the turn?
people don't respect bets from preflop raiser, because most preflop raiser would automatically bet the flop and turn(if no action on flop).
Good Point I agree with this statement 100%
Had the button and small blind been playing poor drawing hands? (46s, J8o, ect) Or had they been playing solid starting hands?
If I was holding TT against two overcards in a game where people semibluff regularly with good draws and don't respect preflop raises, I don't think I would want to bet into them every time.
I like to wait until I get a solid hand that I know I can pop them back with on the turn when I am fairly sure they are on a draw.
I have found if they end up routinely paying more for missed draws, they tend to semibluff less and allow me to play my draws cheaper.
If I am in a game where my preflop raises are getting respect and I have been showing down strong hands to my opponents, I would make the bet on the turn hoping to win the pot right there.
I was in a hand recently where the former strategy worked well. I was playing in a game with an off-duty dealer who semibluffs very often, very loose and aggresssive player on my right. (LAP)
I held AsQc in middle position and had called. 5-way preflop.
The flop was Ad9c7d. I bet and got two callers, including LAP. The turn was a 3d. I bet and the LAP checkraised. I figured he had an Ad with a weak kicker because he would have raised an Ace with a medium kicker or a suited rag preflop. I reraised and he called.
The turn was a blank. He bet into me. I know employs the "I'll bet the river if I am going to call anyway" philosopy, but I thought for a second because I was worried he might have hit two pair on the river. I decided he didn't and reraised.
He called and I could see he didn't want to show his cards. I turned over my AQo and he sighed "Nice kicker" and mucked.
Nice read on the guy, but raising the river after giving this guy all the heat he could want up to that point on A-Q is a bit much, IMO. Even the maniacs get good hands once in a while, and I would certainly call at the end, but raising is playing HIS game, not your's. You may have mis-located the LAP on this hand.
Thanks for the response, Dunc.
I would agree that raising on the river in that situation is usually a very bad idea.
However, this player does this all the time and actually says out loud "I will almost always bet the river if I am going to call anyway."
Against every other person on the planet, I just call, but this guy was determined to toss money away on this hand and I was going to take it.
One of his specialties is priding himself of knocking people off of good hands. Consider this previous hand I had with him:
I had AQo in late position and raised preflop, the same guy (LAP) was on my right and called.
The flop as 467 rainbow. He bet. I figured he was on a straight draw or small pair and I raised. He reraised. Now I put him on 2-pair or a straight and called.
Turn was a K. He checked. No straight, but I still had him on two pair and checked also.
River was a blank. He checked.
Now I figured he was on a busted straight and regretted not betting the turn. I hoped he still had me on a high pocket pair or AK so I bet because he usually folds to me in this particular situation (because if he is going call the river, he will bet), commenting how he "Can't call the Rock."
However, this time he made a crying call and won the pot with 78o (one pair). He said "I had a feeling...." Of course he had a feeling. My mistakenly not betting the turn showed too much weakness.
The main part of this hand that caught my attention was his 3-bet on the flop with a pair and a gutshot. He plays every draw like the nuts.
Everything he had done previously told me to pop him on the river in the hand I described earlier, as I was 90% sure he had the Ad with a medium or bad kicker.
But I would only make that play in that situation against that player.
Here is a hand I played on the weekend:
I have Ah Ks in middle position I raise preflop, 6 callers (2 in front of me, 3 behind) (currently 40 in the pot - 6 callers @6, big blind folded, small blind folded) Flop comes Kc Kd 9c
(players ordered in number of play) Player 1 is a drunk guy who has been losing consistently all night. Player 2 is a woman named Kathy, seems to be a regular player. Player 3 is me. Player 4 is a native guy who plays a little loose. Player 5 is some young chick who plays badly, chases draws a lot. Player 6 is an average player.
Player 1 checks Player 2 bets out Player 3 (me) raises Player 4 calls Player 5 calls Player 6 folds (now 70 in the pot)
Turn comes 6h
Player 1 bets Player 2 raises
Its up to me here. What do you do?
Results in next post
David
Results...
Player 3 (me) reraises Player 4 calls Player 5 calls Player 1 caps all call
I had figured I had a good handle on the hand at this point, but when player 1 bet out and then capped, I got confused. I had player 2 on a good king, and players 4+5 on flush draws (probably 4 on nut clubs, 5 on lesser clubs). But player 1? I didn't know! If player 2 has the other king, and player 4+5 are on the top two club draws, what about the 6 of hearts could have brought player 1 to life?! A wild thought crossed my mind, and I started silently rooting for an ace for the river..
(now 190 in the pot)
River comes 2c
Player 1 bets Player 2 calls Player 3 (me) folds Player 4 raises Player 5 calls Player 1 reraises All call (now 262 in the pot)
Player 2 shows her Kh Qh I (still holding my cards after saying "fold") show mine and say "I have you beat!" Player 4 shows Ac Jc and says "I have YOU beat!" Player 5 shows 6c 7c and says "Well..I don't have you beat" Player 1 shows 6s 6d and says "I have you ALL beat!"
Would you have played the hand any differently?
I would not have played it any different than you. I would jammed the turn knowing that if someone plays back at me, they might have me beat with K9 or K6. I would not suspect 66, but it beats me just the same.
I then hope like hell for that river ace and fold when it doesnt come and flush hits to boot.
Not much you can do here.
How did you still have your cards on the showdown?
I wanted to show them for some reason (frustration!?). This was only the crowning glory of suckouts on me that night.
When the bet came to me, I simply said fold and didn't throw my cards in. The betting flew around the table pretty quick and it was showdown time before the dealer took them.
Why would you put player 2 on a good king when she had last action on the flop and just called?
I said a good king; not a monster king. She also was sitting right beside me and knew I wasn't doing a lot of bluffing; when I raised it, she was worried I was ahead of her (and she was right).
You should re-raise since your hand will usually be good. You have the trips with the top kicker which beats King-Queen or King-Jack or any other King except specifically King-Nine or King-Six which are unlikely holdings. Make anyone on a Club flush draw pay throught the nose to chase you.
...and call them down on the river if they pop you again.... Make the draws pay - you will have the best hand here much more often than you might expect.
dave in cali
So she has a raising hand that doesn't include a king. Bad news. Call.
Hold on! The bet and raise on 4th street should set off a warning buzzer. When you account for the possible hands that would be interested in playing against you, and betting after two rounds of aggressive play on your part, one of them should be either 9's full or 6's full! You've basically announced to the table that you have a King on the flop. I would be suspicious and cautious here. I would have just called the raise, because if they have either of those full house's it's very simple for them to know that you don't have a full house!
6-12, I have 9-10 in the cutoff with three limpers to me. I call, button mucks, Sb calls and BB raises. BB has been raising with most holdings, but can be run off of a hand. I was thinking of mucking, because of his raising tendencies, but decided to call because the rest of the game was passive and the game had 8 or 9 (depending on how you rate my play) bad players. should I have mucked??
flop came 7,8,Q rainbow. SB looked very uninterested (not an actor) and checked. BB bet, and two callers to me. I called. 15-1 with implied odds from anyone with a pair. could have raised, but BB may make it 3 with nothing. bad call? fold or raise better?
turn was perfect (J, fourth suit). BB bet, one call, I raised, he three bet, caller dropped, I re-popped.
river he check called.
BB had a set of Q and soundly criticized my play. I just said "yeah, I had a feeling"
truth of the matter is that if he hadn't raised, I wouldn't have called the flop bet.
how did I play this hand?
I'm first to respond on this one, 2d, but I think you are going to get flamed.
Pre-flop call with T9o is probably OK with your position and number of callers, but I wouldn't fault you for dumping. You said BB had been raising with a lot of holdings, but from out of the blinds, too?
When he does raise, I would call for another small bet. You have the button and I want to see this flop at this price.
Open-end str8 draw, call is mandatory. I would probably not raise here because of the liklihood of BB re-raising and destroying your price. If you hit, especially with the Jack, it will be well disguised, and you can get your action on the turn.
Rest of the hand is a pianola. It plays itself.
I can't believe you would lay down an open-ended str8 on the button with 3 callers if the BB had not raised pre-flop. I would more strongly consider raising in this position than I would just calling, given the lack of a pre-flop raise. Sorry, folding is out of the question.
Pre-flop your limp from the cutoff with three other players already in having Ten-Nine offsuit is okay. Make it Ten-Eight offsuit or Nine-Eigth offsuit and I would fold. When the big blind raises and it swings back to you then you must call. Folding is unthinkable. At this point the pot odds are better than ever for you to take a flop. When you flop an open ended straight draw it is absolutely correct for you to call and again folding would be ridiculous. Raising is not recommended because the lead bettor may well re-raise and drive everyone else out of the hand which is not want you what when you are drawing like this. You want players in, not out. This is Poker 101. The rest of the hand was normal. I gather the big blind thought you should have folded pre-flop rather than limp in. This would have been the only point in the hand where you could have folded. If the big blind would fold Ten-Nine offsuit in this situation pre-flop then I wish he would post on this forum so I would not be the tightest pre-flop player here.
n/t
Why the distinction between 9-10o and 8-9o? Is it because when you make the idiot end with 8-9 you are potentially butting heads with AK?
That is one reason and the other is simply high card strength. If you make a top pair of Tens you have a better chance of it holding up than when you make a top pair of Nines. There is a line somewhere here. I draw it at Ten-Nine offsuit. Some players draw it at Nine-Eight offsuit. No one would draw it as low as Four-Trey offsuit.
One of the nice things about occasionally playing the lower unsuited connectors is that you can easily get off anything but a great flop. Pairing your top card with 6-7 shouldn't ordinarily tempt anyone to stick around.
Well, Jim, I dont think I am tighter than you pre-flop but I won't call from any position with T9o.
Does that make you feel better?
I sometimes will call JTo in this position with this many callers. Depends on the players. Usually QJo is as low as I go on unsuited connectors.
with three limpers and both blinds in, you were getting 5:1 on your pre-flop call. Assuming no one raised, and the SB bets and you got two callers before you with no raise, you would have been getting 8:1 to play for 8 solid outs to the nuts.
This is almost as good as the nut flush draw with an unpaired board, only one out different. If you didn't think it was going to get reraised, you could raise for value here. Your chance of making it by the river is about 2.2:1 and there are three callers. Add in the chance of getting checked to on the turn and getting a free card and I would often make this raise regardless of whether it was raised pre-flop or not.
Either way, folding here would be horrible, raise or not.
Possibly fold that trash preflop but once you are in the pot, with that flop you are going to the river 95% of the time.
As for analyzing your play here, good job on continuing to raise the turn and charging others to draw to beat you. But obviously I thought about your flop situation differently than you.. I think you should re-think this aspect of your flop play.
Dave in Cali
Ok, I haven't read any other responses yet, but I'll take a stab at it.
Preflop I don't think you should call. You don't have a very good hand and there are not enough callers to make this hand playable.
Ok, six players saw the flop for 2 bets each. This is almost the best flops that you could have gotten with this hand. The big blind bets out and two people call. You should definitely raise, ESPECIALLY if you think the BB will three bet and the two limpers will call the 2 more bets to them. It is about 2.18:1 against you making your straight by the river and you have 3 opponents, giving you 3:1 on the money you put into the pot on the flop, therefore you are making money on every bet put into the pot on the flop. Plus, it may buy you a free card on the turn. Raise, raise, raise.
The rest of the hand plays itself in my opinion. Except I have a major problem with the statement you made at the end of your post.
"truth of the matter is that if he hadn't raised, I wouldn't have called the flop bet."
How can you say this? Assume the big blind doesn't raise before the flop, but still bets out on the flop. 6 bets went in before the flop, BB bets, 2 people call, you are getting 9:1 on a draw that is only 2.18:1 against you making it by the river. Even taking into account effective odds you still have an incredibly positive expectation play by calling, in fact I still think you should raise on the flop with three opponents in there with you. If you just call then you are getting 9:1, and it's 4.88:1 against you hitting on the turn. On the turn, if BB bets and one opponent calls and you missed, you are getting 7:1 to call for a 4.75:1 shot, obviously you would have to call again on the turn.
I think your statement at the end is off, but that's just my opinion. Now I'll read what everyone else thinks.
Raising the flop may be overly agressive, but where I play right now, I could be fairly certain that both the other callers would call if the BB reraised me, so I would proceed to cap it if they both called the reraise because I would make money off of their calls. It seems I am the most aggressive player post flop on this hand, and the tightest player preflop, so there you go Jim B.
If you can be reasonably certain that your raise will not drive out players, then I withdraw my objection to raising the flop bet. In the games I play in, if it gets raised and re-raised back to the limpers they will frequently fold.
You play 30-60 in Vegas against good players. I play 5-10 through 20-40 in Grande Prairie against idiots. Not often will the first player three bet after I raise the flop, and I know my players fairly well so I know who would call the reraise and who wouldn't. This really helps me decide whether to raise or not in this type of situation.
You MUST call a single raise BTF once you called.
Bad call? This is a must call on the flop. You could have raised for value here, but the risk is the BB can 3 bet and you will be isolated. The call is correct. You have an open end str8 draw to the NUTS.
You got the nuts on the turn and jammed it. Good play.
T9 is a marginal hand, but remember you were in the back, only had to pay 1 bet before the BB raised, and hit a good flop. Your play was fine, I don't consider this a suckout.
He criticized your play? It's just sour grapes.
On his part, however, I would have tried for a check raise on the flop. There were 5 people in there, and 10 SBs. With 5 players in, it's more likely that it will not be checked around. Check raising a late position player will force the field to call 2 bets cold, which might get them out of the hand. Additionally, he's likely to be far ahead (it so happens that 9T, your hand, is one of only 2 decent draws to beat him), so risking a free card isn't as bad as against other flops.
But I'm still learning this game so I may be off the mark. Maybe this pot isn't so big that he should want to win it right away? Comments?
Hi!
hand of the day yesterday...
This is at Paradise 2-4. Full table, typical, somewhat aggressive, the usual...
I get 3d 3h in middle position. Now usually I toss it away but 3 players behind me just posted and I'll get a multiway pot. 1 limper to me, I call, posters check, button raises, SB folds, BB call, all call.
7 players in the pot with 14 SB in it.
Flop comes: 2d 4d 5d
Checked to me, I check, there's a bet, a raise, a reraise from late. BB folds, 1st limper calls, I...
There is 23 SB in the pot (tho I can expect 26 at least if it's not capped) it is costing me 3 SB so my effective odds are 23:3, so 7.6:1 . It looks as the str8 will not be good, for sure a 4th diamond will not be good, except for the Ad or 6d, and the Ad could already be out from the betting. Of course should I hit, implied odds will go up if the Ad or Kd are out there. If I miss on 4th street it will cost a bundle etc, I'm going for a 2 outer, I muck...
Of course the Ad hit on the turn.
I know this is result oriented but good fold on the flop ??
Thanks,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
It looks like your up against a higher flush which is already made. If it is the nut flush, you have one out for a straight flush. I believe in this case, your fold was correct.
Aren't these the problems we all run into when we play little cards?
Not close. You'd need about 40 more bets to call unless you believed the bettor, raiser and reraiser were so far out of line that a 3-high flush or 3rd nut straight might win, if they hit.
I think it was good fold, and must congratulate you for having the discipline to do so. Realize, that if you get this same scenario 10 times, you'll probably miss 8 or 9 times. I was teaching my friend, well at least trying, to play Hold 'Em. Told him, "...Rule #1 when in doubt throw it out look around for a really hot girl and stare at her for the remainder of the hand..." Don't look at the turn or the river because when it does hit it may drive you to bad plays later.
This is a 3-6 Hold'em game. 6 players limp to see the flop. I'm at the buttom, I called with 5d 6d. The flop is Js 5s 2c. Is check, check, check to the guy next to me, he bets, I call, and then everybody calls.The turns is 6s. A flush card, now I have two pair. UTG comes out betting. Fold, fold, fold, I fold, no calls. Shoul I have called with my two pair in this situation????
First off, I'm not sure I would have called the flop bet. One of your opponents surely has you beat, the 6s is one of your outs AND is a flush card plus a str8 card, it might get raised by one of the checkers.
When it is bet by a check/caller when a flush card comes this usually means a flush. But, now, you are heads-up if you call which increases your chances of winning IF the guy doesn't have what he is representing. If he does you have 4 outs.
The pot is laying you 14:2 (7:1) here. If you do catch up you'll certainly get him to call 1 more BB if he has a flush and maybe 2 if he bets out and you raise, then the pot looks more like 8:1 or 9:1. You are 10.5:1 to hit your boat here. Given the fact that he could be a moron and bluffing several opponents, and that maybe you have the best hand, I'd pay him off. Of course you did not mention what kind of player UTG is.
Royally yours,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
With six players paying $3 each to take a flop and assuming they include the blinds then there is $18 in the pot once the flop comes. When the guy next to you bets there is $21 in the pot so you are getting 7:1 to play 4 or 5 outs depending upon whether or not you count the the 6s as an out. A 4 outer is about an 11:1 shot and a 5 outer is an 8:1 shot. I think you should fold when bet into on the flop. While your implied odds are better than this, you have to factor in the possibility that your two pair may not win 100% of the time.
With everyone calling the flop bet that means there is now $36 in the pot. When the turn comes and a player bets $6 with everyone folding you are now getting 7:1 on your call. A 4 outer to fill is about an 11:1 shot. There is a chance your two pair might be good coupled with the possibility of improving, makes calling probably correct here.
It would certainly help with your decision if you know how UTG plays. Be that as it may, a flush and a straight are possibles holding for UTG certainly (was he a blind?), but is J6 a possible holding also? If yes, then your outs are reduced to 2. Now you would be well over 20:1 against. If you think UTG would have bet a Jack on the flop, then maybe you can downplay that holding. Could UTG have slowplayed 2 pair on the flop (J5, J2, 52, etc.)? How about a set of dueces? There seems to be lots of risk and minimal reward for your middle 2 pair.
As a prior poster (Jim Brier) wrote, a questionable call is your one on the flop IMO also. On the turn, I don't think your fold was a mistake however.
Steve Keith
The call on the flop is nasty. I would probably never just call a bet here. Most of the time, I would fold. On the turn, I still don't like calling much. If I thought there was a reasonable chance that my opponent had something other than a flush, I would raise, otherwise, I would fold.
Watching a hand of 3-6 yesterday: Seat 1 on the SB, Seat 2 on the BB, Seat 3 decides to straddle. Seat 4 calls, Seat 5 folds, seat 6 calls, Seat 7 raises to 9, Seat 8 raises to 12, Seat 9 folds, Seat 10 calls, all call back to seat 7 who caps at 15. All call. 8 players.
Flop: Ks 10d 3h
Seat 1 bets. All call to seat 7 who turns over pocket kings and raises to 6, saying "Don't bother chasing me!". Seat 6 requests that Seat 7's hand be mucked; houseman rules play can continue with cards face up. Seat 8 calls! Seat 10 folds, Seat 1 calls, Seat 2+3 fold, Seat 4 calls, all the rest fold.
Turn: Ad Seat 1 checks, Seat 4 bets, Seat 7 calls, Seat 8 calls, Seat 1 calls.
River: Kd Obviously all fold. Seat 4 gets up and leaves the table; seat 5 says "He had QJo". Seat 1 shows 10-3 (inexperienced player didn't realize he had no outs). Seat 8 shows Q high flush.
Seat 7 wins a huge pot.
Comments?
Seat 7 is a moron...
He would have won a much bigger pot had he not shown his cards...This is very very bad poker...
Royally yours,
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Sounds like a game you should be playing in instead of observing.
Interesting. Obviously #7 tried to win the huge pot right there by trying to scare everyone out because he was afraid of any straight draws. Must not have thought that the straight draws would realize that they´d have the giant advantage of not paying him off on river if #7 and they hit and that #7 would pay off if he didn´t improve while they did. That should make up for the scare effect!
I have been playing Low Limit HM for about a year and a half now. For about the first year I won, broke even or lost about evenly. For about the last six months I tend to be on the winning side with an occasional losing session.
About a month ago I got drunk and went crazy and dropped a small bundle at the Bike. That will not happen again.
Anyway as a result of reading all your guys posts here I have really improved my play and would like to say "Thanks".
I played $4-8 at the Bellagio this past weekend and after two sessions and around 18 total hours I left up about $ 300.00. This is a big improvement on how I was doing a year ago, so "Thanks Again" to all you who post here. I really appreciate it.
I may start posting myself soon, not just reading them.
n/t
In a 1-5 game, I held 10d-8d on the button and pay $1 to see the flop, along with 7 others. Flop comes AKQd! Only someone with the jack can beat me. 5 players check, then a $1 bet, a $5 raise, and I reraise $5. 5 fold, the two bettors call. A blank on the turn, check, $5, I raise to $10, both call. Another blank on the river, check, check - what do I do? I wonder if the guy I'm raising has a flush with the jack, but he didn't reraise me. Anyway, I check also. The first guy has the Jd but a blank, the guy I was worried about has KQ for two pair.
Did I play this right? What about the guy with the nut flush draw and the guy with 2 pair?
Thanks, sargon
You must bet the river. You win and they will call.
"Did I play this right?"
You had a made flush on the flop and the turn and rightfully punished the people chasing their hands. If the player with the Jd also had another diamond, he would have pumped it on the turn. When no diamond comes on the river, and the board doesn't pair, you should be 95% sure you have the best hand. Bet it!
"How about the other two?"
They played fine. The guy with the nut flush draw bet on the flop, then called to the river. The guy with 2 pair raised on the flop and the turn, making sure you had the flush with the bet on the turn, then just hoping to fill up on the river. Given the betting, it's fairly clear neither of them had you beat on the river. The guy with the Jd probably wouldn't call a bet, but the guy with 2 pair likely would have.
GB
I don't have the the time to count the bets (maybe I'm just too lazy) but if there isn't 10 BB's in the pot then the two pair should fold after Sargon raises him. He bet to protect his hand if it was good, but when he is raised he should know that he is beat by a flush and if he doesn't have correct pot odds he should fold.
I truly believe that game selection is one of the most important skills to master to become a consistently winning player. However, I am having great difficultly executing proper game selection. Because of other personal commitments I can only play during the day on certain weekends. My normal routine goes something like this: 1) I go to the card room and put my name on the list. 2) They call my name and I sit down at the assigned table 3) Other player rotate in and out of the game 4) Six hours later I get up and go home
This is not game selection. Because of my limited playing schedule I recognize only a few other player. Therefore, it is impossible for me to instantly judge to quality of the game. My initial thought is if I determine that I do not like the game I should get a table change and hope that the next table is no worse than the one I am leaving. Scouting is also an option. If I find a table that I how do I get place at that table? A third option is to wait for other players to leave and hope that the type I prefer replaces them. This is essentially what I am doing now.
Comments from other who have successfully mastered this are greatly appreciated. If it helps I normally play LL (5/10) at the Taj in AC.
without seeing your opponents over time, you can usually tell who is focusing on the game and who is focusing in outer space. within the first two spins of the button you will be able to see who is winning and who is losing, mostly by the way people play their hands and how they handle raises.
using this knowledge to your advantage see how much money the weaker players have and try to figure if you and the other strong players can chop it up so you can come ahead.
overall, no matter what happens at the table, allow yourself the time to find a good table with players who are ready to gamble and who A. dont know each other B. dont nod as someone comes into the game and C. dont get the other players whispering
the money flows to us we just need to know how to catch it
Eeyor,
I find that keeping a few notes on players you play with will help alot. Also get to know a few of the regulars can help speed things up. Talk with the players you see the most and find out if they see any better tables. I was talking to a holdem player (regular) last weekend and asked him if he liked the 20-40 game. He stood up and ran down each seat.
Seat1 fish
Seat2 Good player
Seat3 Never seen her
Seat4 He stopped and said: "No you don't want to play in that game."
He knew 50% of the players in the room(I am sure he was taking notes on me and I of him)
I have made friends with a few other players i have seen often and find that this has been the greatest help.
Best of it !!
MJ
In addition to what the others have said....
At my local room, I have gotten to know a few dealers and floorpersons fairly well. Because of that relationship, they are generally happy to tell me where the good games are and put me in them.
Thanks, Tim
online 5- 10 game.
i'm in LB with 66. everyone folds to the button, who is an overly- aggressive player. he raises. hoping that it is a steal, i re- raise to bump the BB out.
flop comes: A, K, 7 rainbow.
i bet, he calls.
turn: 10
i bet, he calls.
on the river an anonymous card comes, and i check and fold, pretty sure that he has either a higher pair in the hole, or something like a stray ten or seven. i figured that at best here he has 22 through 55. were these bad bluffs given the opponent? he is the type of player who would raise with nothing, but be meek with a mediocre hand. i have alredy represented a big hand, and i feel like i must bet out the flop. but what about the turn? and my fold on the river?
-captain marlow
I run into the same problem on-line. But I play .5-1. I'm too scared of collusion.
But back to the problem. I think it depends a great deal on how you've played your hands previously.
If you're the type of player who will always take charge of a hand and keep your foot on the gas when bluffing or semi-bluffing, then people will pick up on this and let you bet there hand for them and then raise you on the end.
But if you're the type of person who will 3-bet pre-flop, bet the flop and check the turn when you don't improve with a mediocre hand, other players will fold when you bet the turn unless (in this particular case) they have an A or K (less likely here since there's one of each out there and this player is overly aggressive).
In the latter case, they may fold on the river if they only have a K or a weak A. I would probably have bet the river - he probably would have folded anything less 2-pair.
I think the trick is to vary your play - once players see you playing rote, they memorize the rote and use it against you.
I like your preflop reraise. I would bet the turn too.
I would have called on the end because they'll usually raise on the flop or turn with better than a king and usually check on the end with a pair lower than a king. Also, from your description he should have a lot of hands that he wouldn't want to show down. With those big cards on board and you telling him that you missed, I think he'd bet on the end with nothing fairly often. You only have to have a winner 15% of the time to justify calling.
especially the math on the end - he's saying you only need to be win 1 in 6.66 to justify a bet on the end. I suspect from your description that you will win more than 15% when in this situation.
Thanks, but I'm afraid I have to change my mind.
The flop is AK7. Unless he's a truly horrible player, about the worst hands he could call with are QJ, JT or QT or a tiny pocket pair. When the turn is a ten, he can beat 66 unless he has the little pair, and what kind of player is going to bet something like 44 on the river?
Hmmm,
If it's on-line, he doesn't even have to be a truly horrible player. I'll post a hand I played yesterday that I mucked the winner on the turn when I held QQ. The turn made a flush possible and when I bet, it came back to me capped with 4 other players in. the river was a Q. A single pair won it. I quickly switched tables after that - it was too fishy!
If you're going to do this you must bet the river. if you get raised then you can fold.
one other point, IMHO, it is better to isolate when you have position.
true. the only time that this would happen, however, is if i put the guy on a steal- raise. which i did.
Captain,
Hi. I think that the fluctuations online are high enough for me, and your position isn't great. I think I would call here, look for the right flop -- ragged undercards type flop (or if lucky a set) -- and then try to win a big pot. Otherwise, against a good player I will run a check raise on this type of flop to get this guy out then or a free turn; a bad player will probably check and call with as little as 87o to beat me, so I might just give it up instead of checkraising. Just my opinion. Since I have changed to do this online, among other things, my win rate has gone up.
Mark
At 5-10, it is clearly a good raise before the flop. After the flop, is it likely that an aggressive player would call with a pair of aces/kings???? Probably not. So if this player did have a 7, is it likely he/she would just call??? With bottom pair??? I don't believe so. Therefore, it is probable that you are the leader here. This is where it gets difficult to read at low limits. Is this th type of player whou would misrepresent a non-paired jack/queen high on a straight draw? Hmm......If he did have a/k/10 is it likely that he has a pair? In my opinion, without knowing the player, I would not have folded, and would have risked the bet. The turn bet is definitely correct, and I would have bet on the river. If he is an aggressive player, AND knows anything, it is reasonable that he has a straight draw here. I know lots of players, including myself, that will purposely misrepresent hands in hope that my opponent will fold a weak draw, while leading, when there are lots of nice overcards(6-6 is a weak draw here with callers). IN LOW LIMIT ONLY! I would almost never go to battle with this hand in 15-30 or higher, or tourneys. I welcome all comments, as I haven't really played low limit in a while.
First I want to thank all the posters that make this an educational site. Second, I'm a really new player to poker. I've been keeping track and I'm making right at 1 big bet per hour @ $3/6 Holdem.
I'm UTG in a loose passive 9 handed game. Only one other person does any raising before the flop. I have K5 suited and limp. There are 6 of us seeing the flop.
K7K, I bet out and only one person drops. Turn is a 5, giving me a full boat. (I try and pull a Rick with a stop and go. I see the guy next to me loading up.) I check and call. It is he and I on the river when a rag falls. I check, he bets, I raise and he re-raises. I look at the board-I've learned to be cautious when somebody re-raises. I see a K7 could beat me, so I wimp out and call. He has presto(55) for 5's full. I win and get pissed at myself for wimping out.
Just a few hands before I got my 2 pair beat by a straight-flush. I could see the straight possibilities, but nobody was pounding the pot. O well.
Bob
Let me be the first to congratulate you being the luckiest SOB in the Valley. And that's all the way from Sun City to Apache Junction.
Please do not confuse good fortune with good play. Coming in UTG with K5s is not good poker, and will cost you a lot of money over time. Sure, you've got a little cushion now after that hand, but it won't last long if that is an example of your starting hand criteria.
On the button after several limpers, OK, if you are sure you will get in for only 1 SB. Up front, it's a chip burner. I plugged that leak a long time ago.
I'd have to run a simulation Dunc, but in the game he describes, if 6 or more players see the flop and only one other person in the game EVER raises then I'm not so sure this is a bad play. You definitely have bad position, but you have excellent implied odds and you will see the flop cheaply.
Of course, I don't believe that there is only one other person that ever raises (come on, even little old ladies raise AA), and I'm sure that not every flop is seen by 6 or 7. So, I agree it's a leak in most games and I wouldn't play that way, BUT if his game is as good as it sounds I'm not sure it is a big leak, and it may be profitable. I'll leave it to Abdul to let us know what the EV is for this type of hand in this position in this type of game.
An interesting question comes to mind now. If a game exists where absolutely NO ONE raises before the flop (except you) no matter what their hand, and EVERY flop is seen by at least 6 players, then what are the minimum hands that can be played UTG with +EV? I'm guessing K5s is +EV in this game.
I'm trying to improve my game and adjusting to the conditions. I consider myself a TOM. But this game seemed so passive I loosened up a little. Maybe I did too much, but it seemed to work. I'm not just referring to results, but I limped in at earlier positions than I normally would and didn't get caught with raises. I also folded quickly when I didn't get hit on the flop.
Thanks for your input.
Bob
One thing to consider here-in LOW LIMIT games, it is almost always okay to call with low group hands, with no raises. As players usually stay in with garbage, you get your expected value after the flop by outplaying them. In middle to upper limits, it woule be a cold day in hell before I would play UTG with K-5s. But at this level, I think it's ok. One thing I have noticed here, altho I haven't been reading for that long-too many people, especially those who have read Sklansky/Malmuth books, assume lower limite are similar to middle/higher. Nothing could be further from the truth. Sorry to disagree with some of you, but I clearly agree with tempebob. I have been at all three levels, and believe me, following S/M at low levels will win, just not as much as you can. At low limits, k-xs is just the type of hand that wins big pots by outplaying.
Others may join in, but IMO that's the biggest problem in getting involved with this speculative holding. In a cold sim, maybe the hand is slightly +EV; I'm not sure. But you are going to flop a King high board more often than you are a flush draw, and now what. So maybe you didn't get raised and there are a bunch of limpers in there.
You don't know if someone is hanging around with K9, for example, and you've got to make an early position decision. Bet? Hope for a late position bettor and check-raise trying to get it heads-up and hope he's betting an underpair, or 2nd pair? Risk giving a free card?
From early position, I would much rather prefer to play a hand that if I do hit the board, I can take control and come out swinging. I'll leave the what if? decision hands for later position so that I can have a clearer picture of what's going on by the time the action gets around to me.
Certainly, having the skills to release when it appears you are beat is very important if you are going to play K5s up front. I see a lot of players hanging on for dear life with kicker trouble and the chips just evaporate.
Maybe I'm off base here. I will sit back and see what other comments may be made.
No, I think you are totally right Dunc. It's definitely a chip leaker for all the right reasons. Personally I wouldn't play it very fast against many opponents and a King high board. Personally I wouldn't play it UTG. I was hypothesizing (a word?) about a totally theoretical situation, where this hand might have a positive expectation. I would fold this hand 99.9% of the time UTG (there are no absolutes in poker, hehe).
I normally wouldn't play this in this position, but the game seemed sooo passive I thought it might be OK. I can get away from flops that don't hit me hard.
Thanks for your input.
Bob
because this situation comes up alot at the off-the-beaten-track cardroom where I [very occasionally] get to play. VERY passive games with lots of callers. In fact, if TempeBob's game is like the one I see, even if the button raised this hand 5 or 6 players would call the raise, without necessarily having premium hands.
To me, the tricky part of this hand isn't playing the flush draw but having a flop with a K high and having to play such a weak kicker. Betting out from early position makes it very hard to read anybody else. Not betting out in a multi-way pot runs the risk of it being checked around and getting run down by some REALLY bad hands.
Is 50 cents tip acceptable in a 5-10 game, regardless of the pot size?
If you do not care if the dealers hate you, you can tip any amount that is your right. However if you win any pot that you did not just buy the blinds or win a very small pot i would tip at least 1 buck.
In response to PockerPL: In any other casino game, black jack, craps, etc, if you are not winning you don't tip. In pocker, you may be losing $ 100.00 in a 3-6 hold'em game and if you win a $ 30.00 pot you are expected to tip a $ 1.00. By tipping a $1,00 in small stakes, on a 10 hours session, you will tip over $ 25.00 average, app. Don't you think this is too much? I don't have a winning record to warrant this kind of tipping. If I am wrong, please explain. I play at the Taj Mahal, in AC.Thank you. PS.: I tip 18% in restaurants regardless of service quality.
tipping 18% regardless of the service is totally beyond me, as well as tipping away all your profits in gambling just to be liked by a dealer. a tip is for good service and the amount is an individual choice based on many considerations.
In NJ taxes on a restaurant check is 6%, I multiply this amount by 3 and that is my tip. If I get excellent service I will go up to 20%. If I am abused or not treated the way I feel I should, I don't come back to the establishment, period. I still leave the tip, regardless. In this last case, probably 15%. I don't mind tipping waiters and waitresses, even when I don't get the best service. Unfortunally, I don't feel the same way about poker dealers. In the Taj Mahal some of them are just plain wise guys, and some of them are very agressive about the tipping. The way I see it, there is no service here. The dealer is suppose to deal to the best of his/her ability, all the time, to every one. And I would like to tip them more that 50 cents or a dollar, but in small stakes, it will be just too much. Prove of these is that in the big games the normal tip is a dollar. And I have to think, that when you play at this level, you must know by simple experience, what the right amount is. I agree with you that is up to every person how much to tip, but I don't agree with those that "never" tip. In London, England, tipping is not allowed in the casinos. I wish they do the same here. Thank you for your response.
"If I am abused or not treated the way I feel I should, I don't come back to the establishment, period. I still leave the tip, regardless. In this last case, probably 15%"
would anyone else say the same thing? i sure wouldn't.. 15% for being ABUSED?
I think using "abused" was wrong, too strong. But I will say that the work waitresses do is very hard, and I have a soft spot for them. I do not feel the same way about dealers. Thank you for your comments...
It is a matter of perception of what people think of you rather if it is true or not. If you do not care what players think or the dealers think you can tip small or not at all the is your choise.
Let me give you a short example;
I was playing in a 1-4-8-8 holdem game in Bolixi MS., and one of the regualers sits down with a roll of .50 pieces and uses them for tips. After he leaves the table after several hrs of play i hear several comments from other players on how cheap he is and most the dealers do not like him. I do not know if he is a bad person or not but the perception at least for this guy was bad.
Where i play at if you tip very low you are usauly not well liked, but if that does not bother you that is your option.
This is just what i have noticed for what it is worth.
as long as you understand that, then you are buying friendship. for some it is an expense worth it to them.
As an added note the lowest chip on the table is a 1$ chip in Bolixi, so that does make some difference.
I have a freind that deals at the Bilogio in vegas and he would much rather deal the low stakes tables because the tips are better.
When i go to vegas i will tip .50 for a small pot, a 1$ for a fair pot and 1.50 to 2$ for a big pot at the low stakes games, but that is just me.
I see players tipping $0.50 even in the $10-$20 and $20-$40 games at the Mirage. If you don't want to do this you can simply tip $1 every second pot assuming that there is no showdown. Frequently dealers to not expect to be tipped if there is no showdown and only two players.
I was playing the other night and won some mediocre pot (maybe $30 or $40) and gave the dealer a $2 tip (my brother is a casino dealer down in the USA and he was on my case about being too cheap last time he was visiting). Another player at the table who I sort of knew felt the need to inform me "The reason you will never be a big winner is that you tip too big" (at the time I was up a rack and he was down a rack, making it quite hard for me to respond without giving my opinion on why HE would never be a winning player). Anyways, I've seen venomous looks before, but nothing like what the dealer gave this guy.
How much you tip depends on what reason you are playing. I play because I like the competition and strategic aspects. I like to win hands, the pots are not as important to me. So I'll never be a pro player that way (no kidding!)...such is life. If you are trying to play professionally, or you need the money, your tipping standards should be different from those of a recreational player such as myself.
David
I think David's response is a good one. Of course you should tip whatever you feel is comfortable and appropriate. I'm probably a little on the excessive side, but I think generally the pots are bigger in California then Nevada (this is based on my limited play in both Reno and Las Vegas), but I will never comment to a player that he/she did not tip enough. I realize it is a personal issue. I also believe that California players are probably better overall tippers than Nevada players. A good example of this was a 3-6 game I played at the Mirage over the summer. A tight local player won a pretty good sized pot. I know at Bay 101 where I play a pot that size would get a minimum of $1, probably $2, and maybe $3 depending on the player. The local player threw the dealer a $1 chip and gave the "chop" sign. I was 2 seconds away from breaking out in laughter and saying "good joke," when I realized he wasn't kidding.
50 cents in small stakes is a nice tip. Anything over this amount is over tipping.
j
In games where $1.00 is the customary minimum tip, it may be better to tip $1.00 every other pot (or pots over a certain size) rather than 50 cents for each pot. If the dealer shows disapproval, you can save even more money.
Why don't you just create your own game where everybody takes turns dealing, that way you don't have to tip?
I usually tip $1-2 unless the pot is small, then I tell them I'll get you next time.
I took a long break from Holdem, but have recently started playing again on an occasional basis. I used to be a tight/passive player, but after reading advice from this site, I think that I've effectively upgraded to a tight/aggressive player and I've been winning a lot more. Also, my reputation is also pretty strong as players know that I will usually not raise or re-raise without a very strong hand. I usually play at the 6-12 limit.
Anyways, this hand may not be too exciting, but just wanted some feedback from you guys on the way this hand turned out. I guess I got pretty lucky.
Nine-handed 6-12 table, type of players not really relevant here except for Seat 9 who is a tight/aggressive player.
Seat 2 was on the button, I was sitting in Seat 6. Seat 5 folds, I limp in with AdQs (I didn't like my position and I don't always like to raise with this hand), Seat 6 folds, Seat 7 calls, Seat 8 folds, Seat 9 (tough player) raises, Seat 1 folds, Button calls, BB and SB fold, Rest call. We see the flop 4-handed.
Flop is Qd8d3d.
I have top pair, top kicker, and nut flush draw. I bet. Seat 7 folds. Seat 9 (raiser) raises. Button folds. I reraise. I felt that I could have been beat, but I also felt that I had to play this hand very aggressively because I felt that I had a lot of outs and could have had the best hand.
Turn is a 4s. I bet, Seat 9 calls.
River is a 7h. I bet, and Seat 9 ponders for a moment and then says "I can't beat a flush." He then shows me two black aces and folds.
If he was convinced that I had floped a flush, then why did he call the turn? Maybe he wasn't as tough as I had thought. Also, was my reraise on the flop the right move. I'm assuming that I did nothing wrong betting out on the turn and river.
Anyways, like I said, not too exciting of a hand, but I'd just like to know what some of you guys thought.
Thanks.
Your opponent was not a tough player. He was a fish.
Calling all that way just to dump for one more bet on the river? What was he thinking?
I know this one guy - he is a terrible player. He plays nearly every hand and will not raise without the nuts.
I swear if you have AA, he'll call you with QJ offsuit. And then, if he flops a pair, he will call to the river. Every time. Anyway, ironically, this happened one time:
I had KK in mid position. This calling station was on my left. 1 limper. I raised. He reraised (???). Limper called and I just called.
Flop came J high raimbow. Limper bet, I raised, the passive fish said 'Son of a bitch!' and called 2 bets cold, limper called.
Turn blank, I bet, both folded.
The fish said 'You must have flopped a set of jacks. I had aces.'
I couldn't belive it - that guy call you down with bottom pair but he'll lay down aces! Amazing!
-SmoothB-
.
No, he wasn't lying because he showed me two black aces before he folded.
One of the defining attributes that make a tight agressive player is making plays that sometimes do not make sense to an observer, such as folding at the river heads up.
Seat nine for whatever reason, perhaps your betting pattern plus the board (?), was sure you had a flush, and therefore saved (or made depending on how you view it) 1 BB.
I wouldn't write him off as a bad player, but I would take advantage of the situation if it happens again.
This was definitely a poor play.
After you reraise the flop and bet the turn he has a decision to make. Either he likely has the best hand or he is drawing dead. If Jace was very very passive and extremely readable it may be correct to get away from it when he bets the turn. But calling the turn and folding on the river is beyond dumb.
You played fine. It is pretty weak poker to be mucking a big over pair especially Aces in a heads-up situation like this. Flopped flushes are hard to come by and if he thinks his pocket rockets are no good he should simply check and call it down.
You played it well, he played terribly.
In his situation, I would fold AA if there was a lot of multiway action, but headsup?
No way. You'd have to show me the flush.
I've been playing two tables for a couple of hours. The tables are mostly short-handed. About 100 hands per hour each. This table is very loose-passive and two new comers have posted. All comments appreciated. Particularly is my raise on the turn appropriate - this is not my normal M.O. but it seemed like a good time and I've seen seat5 fold when confronted.
Thanks,
Michael
Seat4 : Post Small Blind ($0.25) Seat5: Post Big Blind ($0.50) Seat10: Post ($0.50) Seat1: Post ($0.50) Dealing... Dealt to ME [ 5h ] Dealt to ME [ 6h ] Seat7: Fold ME : Call ($0.50) Seat9: Call ($0.50) Seat10: Check Seat1: Check Button : Fold Seat4 : Call ($0.25) Seat5: Check *** FLOP *** : [ 2h 4s Kc ] Seat4 : Check Seat5: Bet ($0.50) ME : Call ($0.50) Seat9: Call ($0.50) Seat10: Fold Seat1: Fold Seat4 : Fold *** TURN *** : [ 2h 4s Kc ] [ 8h ] Seat5: Bet ($1) ME : Raise ($2) Seat9: Fold Seat5: Call ($1) *** RIVER *** : [ 2h 4s Kc 8h ] [ 3d ] Seat5: Check ME : Bet ($1) Seat5: Call ($1) *** SUMMARY *** Pot: $10 | Rake: $0.50 Board: [ 2h 4s Kc 8h 3d ] Seat1 lost $0.50 (folded) Button didn't bet (folded) Seat3 didn't bet Seat4 lost $0.50 (folded) Seat5 lost $4 [ 4h 5d ] (a pair of fours) Seat7 didn't bet (folded) ME bet $4, collected $10, net +$6 (showed hand) [ 5h 6h ] (a straight, two to six) Seat9 lost $1 (folded) Seat10 lost $0.50 (folded)
Seat4 : Post Small Blind ($0.25)
Seat5: Post Big Blind ($0.50)
Seat10: Post ($0.50)
Seat1: Post ($0.50)
Dealing...
Dealt to ME [ 5h ]
Dealt to ME [ 6h ]
Seat7: Fold
ME : Call ($0.50)
Seat9: Call ($0.50)
Seat10: Check
Seat1: Check
Button : Fold
Seat4 : Call ($0.25)
Seat5: Check
*** FLOP *** : [ 2h 4s Kc ]
Seat4 : Check
Seat5: Bet ($0.50)
ME : Call ($0.50)
Seat9: Call ($0.50)
Seat10: Fold
Seat1: Fold
Seat4 : Fold
*** TURN *** : [ 2h 4s Kc ] [ 8h ]
Seat5: Bet ($1)
ME : Raise ($2)
Seat9: Fold
Seat5: Call ($1)
*** RIVER *** : [ 2h 4s Kc 8h ] [ 3d ]
Seat5: Check
ME : Bet ($1)
Seat5: Call ($1)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $10 | Rake: $0.50
Board: [ 2h 4s Kc 8h 3d ]
Seat1 lost $0.50 (folded)
Button didn't bet (folded)
Seat3 didn't bet
Seat4 lost $0.50 (folded)
Seat5 lost $4 [ 4h 5d ] (a pair of fours)
Seat7 didn't bet (folded)
ME bet $4, collected $10, net +$6 (showed hand) [ 5h 6h ] (a straight, two to six)
Seat9 lost $1 (folded)
Seat10 lost $0.50 (folded)
Would be much easier if you woulkd put the action in a text. youll get more answers
charlie
I would have done differently on every street, except the river!
Preflop: fold - even your average posting player has a better hand that you have here
Flop: fold - calling on a gutshot or runner runner flush? Not for me
Turn: check-call - now you have 10 outs, reasonable enough call of $1 given that there is $5.50 in the pot for your $1 call. When you raise, you make it $2 for a possible win of $6.50, making your pot odds now negative (you have about 4.5 - 1 to make your hand, assuming you think a flush will win)
Very lucky win.
David
You wrote:
I would have done differently on every street, except the river!
Preflop: fold - even your average posting player has a better hand that you have here
65s is a better hand than 66. Remember this is a very loose/passive game. I'll agree that a call is not clear here - but a fold isn't clear either.
Flop: fold - calling on a gutshot or runner runner flush? Not for me
I have a gutshot to the nuts AND runner runner flush. One or the other wouldn't have been enough, but with both and the type of game I thought a call was worth it. My image is tight aggressive at the table - I bluff a lot but haven't been caught yet.
Turn: check-call - now you have 10 outs, reasonable enough call of $1 given that there is $5.50 in the pot for your $1 call. When you raise, you make it $2 for a possible win of $6.50, making your pot odds now negative (you have about 4.5 - 1 to make your hand, assuming you think a flush will win)
I now have 12 outs unless you discount the flush draw since I have a 6 high. But I didn't think anyone else would be hanging around with only 1 heart on the flop. Chancey, but sometimes you have to make a move. And further I gave myself a 75% chance of not needing to see the river.
Very lucky win.
I don't think it was all that lucky - the person I was up against was a very weak fish.
David
I know what you are saying, but I still think the preflop and flop calls were shaky at best.
I think the hand is only playable in this manner if you are fairly sure you can win before the river. In this case, there are not enough high cards out there for you to successfully bluff the pot out (what do you think he is afraid you have??). That you managed to make a hand from where you were was the lucky part. Of course, having to show it down costs you some of your image as well.
David
I have a gutshot to the nuts AND runner runner flush. One or the other wouldn't have been enough, but with both and the type of game I thought a call was worth it.
You are getting 6:1 on your flop call. You have four outs to the gutshot and you can add an out for the RRF, if you think the baby flush will be good. I agree with David, that's pretty marginal. The pot just needs to be a little bit bigger for me to play here. Give me 8:1 and I'll call. Give me 9 or 10:1 and I'll be happy about it.
On the turn, you have 9 outs to the flush and four outs that are not already counted (suited) to the double belly buster for 13 outs total. Clearly playing on here is correct, but raising? You could raise for value if you expected 4 callers, but you don't, so that's not a valid reason. You could raise as a semi-bluff if you thought your opponents might fold, but you have too many opponents and you've characterized them as loose-passive, so semi-bluffing should be wrong also.
But, is the game truly loose passive? I am not sure it is - you said that you have been bluffing alot successfully and that just doesn't smell loose-passive to me. I think you are in a game where everyone is basically tight-passive after the flop, but they play too many hands pre-flop. Unless your bluffs were really just bets on the river into a bunch of busted draws (in other words, you have just been lucky so far). If most all hands don't go to showdown then the game isn't loose-passive in my book. But you were there and I wasn't.
Pre-flop I also would have mucked 65s. I believe that you should be looking for excuses to throw away hands, not excuses to play them. Calling with crap like this in early position is just gambling.
David
I see what you're saying. Fearing that I'm making excuses and rationalizing I'll say that the table was short-handed just one hand before. Two new players joined and posted in late position making it 9-handed. May be seeing their money in the pot before I bet made me think I had better position than I did - like I said, I had been playing two tables short handed for a couple of hours already. Anyway, at the time that I called, I was reasonably sure that it wouldn't be raised (luckily I was right). The player in seat 5 was very weak, I was more worried about the other player. That's why I chose to raise Seat5's turn bet. It was sorta just an impulse as I saw my draw get substantially better and I only had two opponents - so I semi-bluffed. It turned out alright. But everything you guys are saying makes sense. I need to NOT surcumb to impulse and pay attention better. I mean if the table was still short-handed I would have no qualms calling with 65s. But in this case it was no longer short, so I should have mucked probably. The only case I can make against mucking is that the new players posted - this increases the blind contribution to the pot which in turn makes me play more loosely.
Thanks,
-Michael
Raise the turn on only a draw? Do you think you are going to get 0.50/1.00 players to fold to your raise?
It is like a low limit sickness on Paradise.. people betting draws into a large field of players, inevitably getting raised, making themselves pay the highest price for their draw.
I don't see this in live play very much, but all the time on pp.
Two players other than me is hardly a large field. I had been at the table over two hours already - I knew who I was raising (one was a fish). How much do you play at PP? There are plenty of tight players playing .5/1. It seems like you're drawing conclusions without DD.
Betting good draws isn't a bad thing. If you play too tight, no one will play with you when you make a hand. In fact, I'd say betting draws is a science - betting a draw into a small field is a semi-bluff while betting a draw into a large field can be ramming and jamming or insane depending on your perspective. They both have there place in limit HE. The key seems to be to know your opponents. And if you don't know your opponents yet, just play weak-tight until you get a read.
I play 2-3 hours a day at paradise. When I wrote about "betting draws into a field", I didn't mean your situation specifically, but a general bizarre thing that I only see online. Betting a draw into only one or two people as a semi-bluff can be good poker. But it is different from RAISING A BETTOR because you will be called. And in the end you are just costing yourself a higher price for your draw.
Playing 3-6 the other night, in SB with A6s. 6 callers, I call in for the $2.
Flop comes 6-6-9o I check, planning to simply call the flop bets and checkraise on the turn. Mid position bets and 4 people (including me) call.
Turn: A I check again, planning the big checkraise for sure now. However, it gets checked around!
River: Q I check again, still waiting..checked around to the button, who puts out a bet. I relievedly raise, and all fold to the button who calls with AQ.
My question is: on the river, should I consider only calling instead? It seems unlikely that any of the checkers are going to call 12, so my best case scenario is to have the button call, to give me an extra 6. If I only call the river bet, only 1 of the other 3 players has to call for me to be doing fine, and if 2 will call, I come out ahead.
Would anyone consider only calling the river bet from the button here? I have to admit, I didn't particularly like the person on the button here, and was happy about the opportunity to checkraise him and make him look not too clever, but moreso, I had planned the checkraise for so long, I didn't really think about it when the time finally came.
David
first of all, i dont like your slowplay here at all! Some one of them might be on str8 draws.
On the flop, i like your check but since u got 4 callers, its time to raise! you probably will add 4 small bet to your income (thats 2 big bet u wont have to win on the expensive streets) and the original better, who might hold a 6, can reraise and then the fishes will have to pay the maximum price for their draw/gutshot/backdoor flush whatever!!!
Just my opinion...
Never ever slowplay when facin a lot of fish. Only time I slowplay is heads-up...
BUT im still learnin!
Charlie
Why not just bet the river. Anyone with an A, and possibly a Q or 9 will call. The player holding th AQ might have even raised. Also, I probably would have bet it out on very round planning on re-raising anyone who would raise instead of check raising. You would probably get the maximum value from your hand playing in this fashion and a check raise would probably kill your action as well as possibly giving someone a free card.
I would save the check-raises for mid limit games, where there are fewer players entering pots and where players will bluff more.
I agree with Charlie and El Gato. With a big pot and lots of players I think you should just bet your hand and hope to get raised so you can re-raise. The problem with the check-raise approach is that you miss collecting a lot of extra bets when it gets checked around. Always remember that in these little games players will call with a lot more hands than they will bet with themselves. I would definitely bet the river and on the given hand you might have gotten raised by the top two pair allowing you to re-raise.
Your first mistake was on the flop, not the river.
In a low limit game, if you had bet the flop to represent trips, you are likely to have had a few callers "to keep you honest."
Furthermore, trips with a pair on the board, especially in a no fold-em game, is almost never strong enough to slowplay. Anyone with a pair in the hole could draw out on you.
Ok, I accept that the slowplay was marginal and not something I usually do; this table was oddly tight (blinds being stolen in a 3-6 game?!), so I figured to let it go a bit more than usual. I would estimate an 80% chance that if I had bet the flop, it would have been fold-a-rama all the way around. I was being very conscious in this game of trying to maximize my good hands because of the tightness.
What I am really curious about is the concept of not playing the checkraise on the river in order to try to get more callers of one BB rather than just the original bettor's call.
David
Dave, all the cards are out. At this point, they either have something, or they don't. IMO, when the limpers check around to the button on this board, they do not likely have anything they're going to call one bet with, never mind two.
The concept of smooth-calling to trap additional hands in for a bet that you don't want out is valid only with additional cards to come. Say for example, the button bet the turn, which a lot of players would in that position. A smooth call there by you would be sound because you don't mind the limpers chasing you thin to dead. But on the river, you wanted to check-raise, and you got your chance. In LL, you almost certainly will get the button to pay you off, and you never know, maybe another Ax is out there and can't think past his nose and will pay you off too. I've seen it happen dozens of times with this crowd.
I like the raise hoping for a re-raise.
I actually saw a very similar thing today at 3-6. There are 4 players at the river. SB has low boat. BB has bigger boat.
SB bets his KK555. BB smooth calls his AAKKK. OP1 (1st other player) calls and the OP2 (2nd other player) folds.
I think I would have raised and hoped that one of the others call and maybe SB re-raised. There was some minor discussion of the non-raise at the table. Most players would not raise. OP1 said he wouldn't have called the raise. SB was not part of the discussion.
Ken
Would you guys stop giving this guy good advice! I've probably got to sit down at the table against him this weekend and I don't want him getting any smarter than he already is.
Seriously, Dave, I think you should have bet out on the flop, or at the very least check-raised once you get a bet and four callers. You hit the flop hard, but your hand is vulnerable to any str8 draw, pocket pair, and various runner-runner stuff at this point. You should know how these LL players think by now. Bet the flop, and most of them, but not all, will first of all assume you have a 9 before they put you on trips, because that's how THEY play.
When the Ace hits the turn, you might get tricky, but there's nothing better in life than betting out and having someone pay you off drawing dead. Who knows? the A-Q might have raised the turn, and you could smooth-call, trying to trap the limpers for additional dead money. Then bet out on the river unless an Ace or 9 hits.
Not very good at heeding my own commnets, am I?
With 3 people still to act I would probably just call. But if I didn't care for the person who bet I would be willing to give up a little by getting another bet out of him.
If you have a tight image, you will pick up more bets by just calling here. If you have a loose/gambling image, raise away.
Get a phone call a few minutes ago from my 'student', lamenting his continued run of bad luck in the afternoon 3-6 rockpile. Somebody makes a flush to crack his set, someone hits the 3-outer to overrun his A-Q, yadda, yadda. Then he gives me this hand.
He's is BB with A8o. Seven players including the SB, no preflop raises. Flop comes down A-7-2 rainbow.
SB, a truly horrible player getting semi-senile, bets out. Student raises (so far so good, I tell him). Gets TWO cold-callers, SB calls. I think the raise here is mandatory. Any dissenters?
Turn is a 9. Not sure if a flush draw is now on board, but SB checks. Now here is where student and I mildly disagree. He said he bet the turn, not wanting to give out a free card. I tell him I think HE's the guy maybe in need of a free card. What could the two cold-callers have? There is no str8 or flush draw on the flop, and his image at the table with the other regulars is that of someone who only bets with quality hands, so if he's getting called here, I would not be surprised to see A-T or A-J or even a small set downstream. Anyway, with rational opponents, I'm not sure a turn bet with top pair/marginal kicker in this situation is at all mandatory, but there could be arguments both ways, I think. Opinions?
Anyway, he bets the turn, and the 2 cold-callers fold! I guess he knew what he was doing to this point. SB just calls.
River is an 8. Now SB bets. I said to him, "So you raised, right?" I mean, what holding could the SB have (short of the unlikely 88) that could have been helped more by the river than my buddy's A8? I would have put him on something like 87. He would have bet the flop out of the SB with that holding, even into a big field. Anyway, another divegence of opinion here, as Student just calls. Gun-shy, or good play?
Results to follow later.
Like many situations, I don't think there is a clearly good play or bad play here.
I like students raise on the flop but once he gets two cold callers he really has to be worried.
It's a tough decision on the turn. I think I would probably bet and if I am raised then simply fold. If called I would just check and call the river. Anyway, I think student was correct in betting out on the turn. He has to be pleasantly surprised when the two cold callers fold (what could they have had?).
When the 8 comes on the river and semi-senile sb bets out again I think student has a tough decision. I don't think a raise is automatic because a player like this could have anything but I think I agree with you and would raise. It's likely student's two pair is good but if sb is really that stupid he could have bet out with 88 or God forbid even T-J and he hit a straight.
I agree with you that he is most likely behind on the turn but he still has to bet. The pot is large enough that I wouldn't want to lose it to some garbage hand only because I gave a free card.
I agree that a raise on the river is in order. Surely if the opponent flopped a set or had A-9 he would have raised the turn.
Flop: Raise is good. Get people out ASAP
Turn: Bet is good. Remember your advice below to David O. Especially with his tight image, the cold callers will let him know if he's beat, or if they are (I guess they were).
River: Final board is 2-7-A-9-8. I'd say he has better than a 55% chance of being best here, he should raise. If re-raised, well, them's the breaks.
GB
Personally, I think this is a good call, with the ONLY FLOP THAT IS acceptable being 88-x. Anthing else, with seven players, the student is an underdog. Good call, but when the flop hits, I would have left. However, once at this point, I agree with you that the student is the one in need of a free card. At the turn, clearly at 3-6 any bet here is a bluff-regardless of the results; ie that the two callers fold. When you have a-8o against all those preflop callers, position doesn't matter-regardless that the othe player is SB, it is likely that "student" is beat. HOWEVER, once here, a raise is clearly the best play if the SB is bluffing, as a call indicates a "keep you honest bet".
I agree with the flop and turn plays. If I'm going to call a bet and I might be best, then I'm going to err on the side of betting (but I would be nervous).
The river is the interesting issue. Players who take the lead at the river, even semi-senile ones, usually have something good, regardless of how they got there. A9, 88, 99, 87, and maybe 97 are the leading contenders for the almost rational hands. Maybe he actually hit a straight after a bizarre flop bet.
My Dark Horse: 45. Semi-senile though he turned the double belly-buster and rivered the straight.
All in all, I'm not 66% sure that I'm the best, which is what I like to be before mixing it up on the river. I call.
Eric
7 on flop n/t
Student is right ! He should bet the flop & turn - believeing (naively ?) he has the best hand - until someone tell him otherwise. He should only call on the river - SB has JT - probably suited together with 8 on flop - giving him a 3-card-straght-flush.
You can bet on that !
Hi Dunc,
All in all, I think your student played fine, although I tend to lean a little bit towards your suggestion that he check the turn. As you indicate, two cold-callers are likely have some strength, so he can't be overjoyed with his top pair, medium kicker. However, there are some in the Palace game who will call a couple cold on the flop hoping for the perfect turn card, but will fold if not helped by the turn, so depending on who the two cold-callers were, Stu-dent may not be all that far wrong. A "fraction of a bet" mistake at most.
On the river ... well, if I were playing against a competent opponent, I'd raise, and pay off any reraises back. Against semi-senile and/or clueless opponents, I'd probably raise as well, but I might just back off and call depending on my read.
In general, I don't like "surprise bets" from the fish ... either it is some kind of hopeless bluff, in which case they can't call a raise, or they've backed into a monster, and I'm begging for trouble by raising without a monster myself. Perhaps I'm looking for snipers behind every tree, to use your saying, but it is a rule of thumb I have found useful in the past.
But at any rate, do tell us what Jules had!
Dave
This was at Yellowhead, Dave. The afternoon TOM game has moved. I know you know Stu, my 'student', but interesting that you could ID Jules just by me calling him semi-senile. LOL.
Anyway, Stu flat calls the river bet. Jules annnounces, "Straight." Stu almost mucks his hand, but he's so stunned that someone could make a str8 out of that flop that he's just sitting there in shock, and Jules turns over his hand. T-7. He thinks he's made a str8 at the river, but it's just a little short. I've seen him do this on more than one other occasion, and I don't think he's trying to angle anyone; he's just losing it (did he ever have it?).
It's Stu's birthday today (the big lick) and I bought him some wings and beer at Schanks last night, and I told him I was posting this hand for comments. I only had read Clinteroo's and winger's responses before I went home last night, and it was interesting to hear the different opinions after only two posts. As you know, he often laments his fate about these guys running him down on hands, and I told him to think about this hand for a moment. Here he gets a good flop out of the BB, gets Jules betting 2nd pair into a big field out of the SB giving him a chance to protect his hand, gets two cold callers donating $6 each on who knows what, then gets Jules mis-reading his hand at the end giving him a further opportunity to extract another BB or 2 from him, even if the consensus isn't necessarily that he should raise the river.
I told him that there are dozens hands during a sit where weak players are putting dead money into pots that increase his earn, but he (and the rest of us sometimes) forget about all those times when somebody turns over a runner-runner. We all have pretty short memories sometimes.
Ahhh .... so it is Stu. I wondered about that.
Good player to have in the game. Not that he's a fish^H^H^H^Hunskilled player, but he is (or was) neither a maniac nor a calling station. Unfortunately for him he is (or was) a bit predictable. Perhaps the same could be said about me, though, as I am one of the tightest players at my table. Even if Stu were raking the money off the table, he would still be a person I would want at my table, as he is a very nice guy. Same with Don, actually.
/.
A TOM is a Tight Old Man (TOM). TOMs here in Vegas play tight, passive poker and are very easy to play against. I think a lot of them are on pensions and play in low limit games.
I've been playing $3-$6 hold'em for a bit and have been thinking of moving up to $5-$10. Is $200 a realistic amount to get into a game with. I mainly play at Foxwoods or Mohegan. I would describe myself as a tight/aggressive player. Any info would be great.
Thanks
It's not enough for a bankroll. A bankroll being defined as "your total poker budget." My target bankroll for this game is $4500.
It's not quite enough for a single buy-in. You could try it with $200, but I would have more than that in my pocket just in case. The 5-10 game is a kill game, if you don't already know that, so you can have bigger swings than you might expect. I would probably have $4-500 in my pocket, but I might quit after $300, so the extra $1-200 might not really matter. :-)
David
A buy in of 20x big bet has been my guide and has worked for me.
I agree with the other guys if you're talking about total bankroll. If you talking about trying to build a bankroll I wouldn't start with less than 5-600. If you're tight-agreessive like you say you will definetely get some bad beats so you'll have to have backup doe. Remember a good win in the 5-10 limit would be 250-300. Even if the game is finominal leave when you're up it's the number one mistake of starting players.
Good luck and Play Solid
"ROOK"
Actually, I would define a very good win as any amount that figures to be averaging a 20 dollar gain per hour. When I'm in "bankroll protection mode" I like to assess my hourly wage after 6 hours or so of playing. If I need one more big pot to log a decent wage, I stick around; and if I don't take one down within a couple of hours, I leave anyway. If I'm way up, I set a stop-loss. If I'm really stuck, I set a definite time limit and begin coping mentally with the loss. All these techniques are looked down upon by the greats, who say that if you are a winning player there is no optimum time to leave, but remember that I said I only manage my money this way _on a limited bankroll_. I would rather leave a winner as many times as possible until I hit that "safe" zone, where my roll is about 600+ times the minimum bet.
Im i the sucker?
3-6 holdem. 4 cards in a row on the table after the turn. It is a huge pot about 150$ im in the Button pos, a player bet in early,there are 1 caller. I have 3 of a kind top card. I know one of the callers are houlding the straight. What sould i do call or fould? I did made the call. Is that a mistake?
Ok, so let's say one of the other two shows you their straight. You still have ~10 outs to a full house or better on the river. You're getting > 25-1 on your call, when you really need about 3-1. I'd say you won't get a much better situation than this when you're behind. I'd call every time.
GB
If you just think he has a straight, but you're not sure, Raise him. See what it does, you gain information and if he doesn't have it yet, make him pay to see other cards.
If you know he has it, call, your odds for a full house are good enough!
David S.
I don't agree with raising.
You win or lose the same amount by just calling him down (and raising when you fill up). BUT everytime you are wrong about what he has because he re-raises you without a straight and you fold wrongly on the river, you have made a catastrophic error.
So I think you are better off just calling him down. Especially in this case since the pot is much too big to even consider folding on the river.
It usually works out that raises just for the purpose of information cost too much for what you get. You have to be absolutely certain that the information you get is reliable or it ain't worth it.
David
Raising, however, would be right if you thought there was any chance that it would win you the pot right now.
David
I still don't agree with raising for information.
But the more I think about this hand, the more I think raising actually has to be right. The pot is so huge that bottom set is actually getting correct odds to draw to quads. So you must raise to knock out anyone you can.
David
I was certain that the straight where the hand that where played. And i got it confirmed after the river when i called. Str 9-k. I knew i had to pull to win it, i didnt, i called and lost. Where thet call also a suckers choise? Should i had foulded. The other caler did fould, guess he where on the flush draw, dont realy know.
No, you couldn't fold because you had a re-draw to a full house. And the pot was too large to fold on the river. There can't be any doubt at all that the guy has the straight if you are going to fold if the pot is that big. I would only fold if he showed me his hand.
David
David Klatte thanks for shearing that info. I know he woudnt have showed me his hand anyway. I i knew i did the right call at the turn, but i also knew i did the wrong call after the river (gut feeling, and the palyer dont bluff often and ecpessially when the odds of beeing called are low, He knew that i would have called him after river when i called the turn, despite that he made the bet, and since i raised him pre-flopp i even might have A-K and the nutt straight) . If i think my chase over, ( belive me i had) i could have saved me the last 6$. I belive that the straight expected me to call him anyway in the large pot. Or is it possible to bluff on that? I Expect to be called when the pot is that large and it costs only 6$. If did fould witch i didnt, would that fould (after river) be a monster fould, or a stupid fould in the long run?
If you fold and you are wrong it's a huge mistake. Much worse than calling an extra bet.
Don't try to save bets on the river when the pot is big. If you have something more than a busted flush draw, or something, you probably ought to call.
David
I play in a home game with several loose- aggressive players. A few of them probably would even fall under the “maniac” category. Anyway, while I normally do well there, I had a terrible session last night, and I can’t get it out of my head. The main reason for this is that one of the other players told me afterwards that I’m too tight and predictable.
I’ve got a few questions here, but let me begin with an example of the kinds of things that happen at this game. Six handed with KTs on the button. One caller to me, I call, BB calls.
Flop: 8, 8, T
First caller bets out, I raise knowing that he will bet at a pot with very little or nothing in his hand. BB folds. 1st bettor re- raises. I call.
Turn: 4
He bets, I call.
River: 4
Bet, call. He turns over the 74o.
Believe it or not, this kind of stuff is typical. The problem with this is that aside from this totally crazy play, the players in this game who do these things really know how to play their premium hands. Since I know that they will sometimes play garbage the same way as the nuts, I feel like I have to pay them off with a decent second- best hand.
What are good strategies against this? These guys play with me all the time, so I know that if I just tighten up, I’ll be transparent, and I won’t be able to make the money that I should when my cards hit.
One strategy that I’ve been thinking about to use exclusively in this game is to just call more of my premium starting hands. This way, I’m not announcing that I’ve got a monster as opposed to my good drawing hands. Also, should I be raising with a few more of my drawing hands? What is my strategy here?
Any comments would be appreciated. Even from the guys I play with. ;)
-captain marlow
You've already figured out most of it. You definitely do need to call them down more often. They've figured out that you know how to fold, so they are going to try to make you do it.
You should feel free to induce them to bluff. Alot.
You should mask the value of your hands whenever you can. This might mean raising pre-flop when it's marginal to do so. Especially when you can isolate someone who's playing crap. But don't start playing AA passively - that won't help.
Read the wild games section of HFAP21. It's up to you whether you want to tighten up as much as they suggest, but you only need to play enough other stuff to keep your opponents guessing.
And finally, if tightening up will make you transparent so that your good hands don't get paid off, then that means that you will have trained them into folding. Use that.
As long as they play 74o like it's AA, you should be a significant favorite.
David
TRY NOT TO GET FRUSTRATED. WHEN I GET TOGETHER WITH MY BUDDIES IT'S THE SAME &$%#. IT'S MOSTLEY ABOUT GETTING TOGETHER AND DRINKING WITH A LITTLE CARDS. TRY TO RAISE THE LIMITS ALITTLE BIT AS THE NIGHT GOES ON MAKING IT EASIER TO PROTECT YOUR HAND WHEN YOU RAISE.
Playing 5-10 last night, and getting a lot of junk hands. To keep ourselves awake, when both me and the player to my right muck preflop, we make a $1 sidebet to see who would have won if we had somehow stayed until the river. Anyways, a few hours in, I am UTG and I have J-10o. I muck it, he mucks and we make our standard sidebet. He tells me whatever it was he had and I tell him what I had and he reacts with amazement that I would fold that hand.
I didn't give it much thought, feeling it a rather normal fold given the position. The game was fairly average I felt, with preflop raises generally with good hands and 4-6 people seeing most flops. Am I crazy to fold this hand?
(For the results oriented, I won the $1 when the board was 9h 10h Jh 2h Jc. Not much of a payoff for a full house!)
David
ps. I don't know what the comments will be about the entire sidebet concept, but the main thing I want to know is whether or not I am making a good fold. I tend to go on boredtilt sometimes during long stretches of bad hands, and the sidebet was a way to keep following the action. I wasn't worried about giving away anything since I don't usually care if someone knows what kind of hands I fold. This was one of 2 times I folded preflop with what turned out to be a full house (Other with 69o). The guy to my right, however, once won my $1 with a straight flush (he folded 56s and 478 of his suit were on the board).
You are right to fold JTo UTG, IMO. It might be a mistake to let your opponents know you play that tight, though. They might end up playing better against you because of it.
David
Your right , I dont like when opponent see my fold with good cards .I usually take care when I fold good cards , but the other day , the dealer flip accidentally my fold with 10sQs UTG . Next week , I have won a pot with 4-5off that I have play to mix up my play .It was from a late position when there was allready 5 limpers . " you don't play TQsuited , but you play 4-5off ? " , " SOrry , I don't really know that game " I have answered , but I knew that I was right .
If instead of folding with 10-Jo or 10s Qs UTG, you raise!, don't you have a better chance of winning by reducing the field?
You may only reduce the field to those hands that are much better than yours, which can be expensive.
In early position you have no idea whether anyone has a strong hand, or how many players are going to be in the pot. With so little information, poor position, and the threat that it could get raised and re-raised behind you, you should be very selective about the hands you play.
David
To raise UTG w/ Q10s or J10o would be a far worse play than calling or folding, IMO.
You want a lot of customers with these kinds of hands. If you flop a drawing hand, which is where you make the most money w/ these hands, you need good effective odds and implied odds to chase.
Raising may be a good idea on the button with these hands, to get a free card on the flop, but almost never UTG.
If the silly sidebetting helps you stave off boredom and frustration and helps you stay disciplined, then I don't think there is a thing wrong with it.
I like being in a game with a lot of small sidebets going on, it usually means things are loose and friendly.
Nothing wrong with mucking JTo under the gun, but I would rather my opponents did not know I was doing it!
Dave, Dave, Dave.
Raise it up with those monsters! What are you doing folding quality hands like that UTG? I thought you wanted to be Deputy Mayor of A2CT. (Place tongue firmly in cheek here).
I wouldn't be offering classes at $1 per hand. Oz charges significantly more than that, but he does have a little better shingle. What I sometimes do to loosen it up and keep the game friendly is bet $1 per flop with someone on whether the majority of flop cards will be black or red. Choice of color alternates between you and the other guy, and payment is doubled for a complete one-color flop one way or the other.
A friend and I recently agreed that whoever shows down pocket 2's to win a hand would win $5 from the other.
I paid him $10 at the end of the night.
The nice thing about cheap side bets is: a) Break-even bets don't hurt your roll in the long run, and b) If you promote yourself as a gambler, you can get real paid.
Are there any poker rooms/games that allow 18+ that are near the bay area in CA and westwood Los Angeles?
OR places that are pretty lax with security and don't really care?
thanks
Cary
Okay Cary I know of two places that are considered to be in the bay area, Cache Creek which is near Sacramento, and they are an Indian Reservation so you only have to be 18. Here are the basic directions-
Take hwy 80 east until you reach hwy 505 (you will reach an area with lots of gas stations and fast food, there will be a huge building on the left of the freeway saying "NUTTREE") Then go down 505 untill you reach a sign saying "hwy 16 Esparto" then take a left at the stop sign and follow the signs from there.
If any of this is unclear I'll be happy to clarify it, Good Luck
I had 2 KQs hands recently playing 6-12 where I flopped top pair and lost to ugly 2 pair. I think I played them well but I am wondering what others think:
Hand 1. I am in the SB and I call the 3 and then call another 6 when BB raises. There are 3 of us in the pot. Flop is Q32. I check, BB bets, BP( bad player) calls. I raise and they both call. Turn and river are blanks. I bet out and I am called by both players. BB had JJ. BP had 32o.
Hand 2. I am in mid-position. BP calls. I raise. SB calls and BP calls. 3 players see the flop. Flop is Q85. SB bets, BP calls, I raise. They both call. Turn is a blank. I bet and both call. River is a blank and SB calls. SB shows 85o.
Any comments or criticisms?
Ken
On the first hand I think you should lead at the flop with top pair/excellent kicker rather than check-raising. But you were earmarked to lose money regardless. Getting sucked out like this over a long period of time is why many players have long losing streaks and frequently quit poker. It is also why two players of approximately equal playing abiiity can get vastly different results over the course of a year.
Isn't top pair with excellent kicker a prime hand for check raising on the flop? It seems to me that you're enticing the opposition into making a gross mathematical error by doing so. Either way, it doesn't matter much. You were beat on the flop. The weak player shouldn't have called pre-flop, but such is life. Take comfort in the fact that premium hands will eat his lunch in the long run.
Perhaps but you must remember the pre-flop betting action. The big blind raised after several players limped in. This typically means AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK, or AQ. Your pair of Queens with a King kicker is only good against AK and JJ. I would rather bet into the pre-flop raiser and see how he handles it rather than check-raising him and having him 3 bet me. In most cases if I bet and get raised I will take a card off. If a blank comes I will usually check and fold against a decent player. I don't want to lose any more than necessary here since there is a strong likelihood my hand will not be good.
Boy Jim I don't know about folding on the turn. Some guys might raise the Flop with AK,QJ, or even JJ, or TT. I take it that you are looking for this player to then check the Turn if he was semi-bluff raising. Might it be better to call the Turn, but Fold the River since many players will just try to show down without Top Pair.
I did an analysis of something like this before where you check raised the Flop and your opponent gave away his hand by Re-raising. You should check and call to river, check-raise if you improved and fold if you missed.
CV
It has been my experience that guys who would raise my flop bet with AK or JJ will usually wimp out on the expensive street since they are worried that they are beat and want to get a free card or just a cheap showdown. I would not expect a player to raise pre-flop with QJ from his big blind after others have limped in. It depends upon your knowledge of your opponent and his perception of you.
In hand 1, you have to suspect that the BB was going to be the one who bets. You are not making it a mathmatical mistake this way. Everyone calls his bet, more or less correctly, and then calls the writers raise correctly. If you can put 2 bets to the field, then you are killing thier odds. But you cant do that here. Bet out on the flop.
You still wouldnt win this hand though
Jim is correct that you should have led out into the BB raiser....who in my opinion overplayed his JJ. The reason you lead out is in hopes of getting the BB (pre-flop raiser) to raise on knocked everyone else out. Clearly here that was never going to happen. Good luck.
I think you played the first hand right-I have had good results check raising w/ top pair-good kicker Regarding the 2nd hand: I have observed that if you raise preflop and someone bets out in front of you after the flop (not respecting your preflop raise) they usually have 2 pair or a set. It's best to be cautious or lay it down in this situation.
Even if he knew for a fact that he was up against 8's and 5's he would still play, so I can't see how folding could ever be correct in that situation.
CV
To play this hand correctly, you must not check-raise! With a top pair, good kicker, against a pre-flop raise, you want to protect your hand, not get more money in the pot.
To do this, bet out. The pre flop raiser will likely raise, if he's aggressive, making everyone call two bets at once.
Check-raising is counterproductive because: You had to be reasonably sure that the pre-flop raiser would bet out, you'd checkraise and players would only be calling one more bet. This makes the pot bigger without bad players making mathematical errors(calling two bets cold). Now you've set up a pot with good enough odds for bad players to suck you out.
I just don't like check raising in this situation.
I think you played both hands OK. I agree with Sly Raymond that checkraising with top pair and excellent kicker is a suitable play.
The point is, you are not tested in these hands, because you are playing again calling stations, not getting a single raise AGAINST you post-flop in any of the situations.
If any of the players who held two pair had made it a three-bet after the flop or raised you on the turn, would you have the discipline to fold against what you deep inside know is a probably big flop for a garbage hand?
But I play against the same bunch of players all the time in a homepoker game here in Norway (in excess of $2-4 limit), and you get to know a few 'danger callers' after a while (players you must proceed with caution vs. unless you hold a major hand). Then again there are players raising on marginal hands who are not punished when others have cards too good to throw, because raises will never be thrown back at them.
Enjoy the game.
Lars
Ay, Carumba! It's hands like this that will move you out of the VoP into A2CT in a heartbeat if you're not careful.
On the first hand, the BP was already in for a SB, and isn't usually going anywhere when the BB raises. Then he flops split 2-pair and never gets in a raise anywhere.
On the 2nd hand, the SB makes an even more horrible play, cold-calling out of the SB with this trash. Flops his 2-pair, and also plays it like a little girl.
Be happy that these didn't cost you more than they did, and cosider the money a short-term loan. It's coming back, and soon.
n/t
full table 2-4 at paradise online. im in the small blind with [ 6s ] [ Qh ] one guy limps, i throw one more dollar in and big blind checks. *** FLOP *** : [ 4s 5h 8h ] i Bet ($2) as a bluff. (weak i know) both players call *** TURN *** [ Qd ] i get excited and bet $4. big blind folds and limper raises to $8. the one thing i know is that this guy loves to raise into me cause ive been bluffing too much this particular session. he raises me as often as he can. also i believe he's decent enough to be pulling a semibluff raise with a four flush. not normal for low limits, but paradise is not normal low limit either. *** RIVER *** : [ 6h ]
i have two pair now but there is a flush board. should i bet here?
Hey! What can I say! I'm afraid of flushs. If he bets, call. Why waste extra $$ on a VERY good chance the guy has a flush.
Just me feeling from what was typed.
This hand could have been avoided if you didn't play it in the first place. It never should be played unless you come in for free in the Big Blind or the SB is less than 1/2 a small bet to complete it.
You can either bet and fold if raised, check and call if bet, or check and fold. I would bet and fold if raised here. Considering the limit you are playing at, I doubt he will bet many hands you could beat if you checked. I also don't think he will fold many hands if you bet.
CV
You should not be paying any money to take a flop with Queen-Little offsuit. The river card not only puts a flush possibility on the table but a straight possibility as well. I would check and call if he bets.
In this situation you should not raise because there is nothing to gain but much to lose. If you bet and he does not have a flush than he will fold, giving you nothing. If you bet and he raises you will feel obligated to call his raise resulting in you losing the pot plus an extra two big bets. If you check and he bets, you can call and if he does have the flush then you lose one big bet instead of two (plus you don't have to show your garbage hole cards). Hope that this post is clear and concise.
Good Luck Bean
i went with checking and he checked, fearing a check raise im sure. he had a QJ for one pair, my two pairs win. i am sorta disgusted with my play on this hand, but
i find it really hard not to pay just one more dollar in these paradise low limits when there's several players and no raises. am i really so wrong to see the flop for half a small bet with paint/little unsuited?
Never complain about winning LOL! The problem with describing plays is that WE do not have the feel, the texture of the game in front of us.
If you FELT that was the thing to do and you won, then you made the right decision and just store the knowledge.
Poker is a combination of left brain charts and reading the table. It's an art form with many things that can not be expressed with the typed word.
Q-small offsuit really should not be played unless it is free. I think if you do a simulation against 10 random hands it will be one of the biggest dogs at the table. Especially in low limit where you usually get many opponents. You're probably making less of a mistake if you're only heads up against the big blind, as you might have the best hand now.
You're thinking "it's only a dollar, I tip the dealer a dollar for a big pot", then maybe you should be playing 3-6 or 4-8 where it costs you $2 to complete the small blind. BTW in 3-6, the small blind is only $1 so you should play tighter to come in here.
The reason you don't play Kxo, Qxo, Jxo, Txo is that if you don't Flop two hidden pair you won't win enough to cover your losses.
The hand you played is very typical of what happens to these hands. You did happen to "Suck Out" but if you hadn't hit your 3 Out draw (I'm ignoring that you had a Straight Draw also) you would have lost big to QJ.
Maybe in a really Small game where people will call you down with Bottom pair you can get away with playing these hands. What happens in Bigger games is that you only get action from hands that beat yours.
CV
The biggest losers on Turbo for me is suited hands. Is it worth a weak call. I think not but enlighten me.....
Tab
I play suited connectors or Ax and Kx suited when in late position only, and if the pot is not reraised.
David Saintonge
Back again, still trying to learn holdem.
I have Black AA in the big blind, 3 callers (including LB). I raise, all call.
Flop: Qh Th 4c. I bet, 2 callers (including LB).
Turn: 8s. LB checks, I bet, both call.
River: Kh. (The board is Qh Th 4c 8s Kh).
LB checks. Should I bet again here? AJ or any 2 hearts are winners. I wimped out and checked. Second caller checked, I showed my A's, and took the pot.
In general, how dangerous does the board have to get to make it wrong to bet on the river? Should I bet into a 4 flush, or 4 straight cards? I this case I had zero read on the callers, since neither one ever made an agressive move. I put them both on some kind of draw, which made me worry about the heart flush even more.
I have a rule for myself that if there is 2 ways I can reasonable be beat i will check the river.
EX; the board pairs low i still bet, if it pairs and puts a 3 flush out to i check against several oppenets.
I do not worry about some one making 2 pair or a set.
I think I would also have checked the river. You have no information yet from the callers and ont of them may well have hit with a drawing hand so here's how I see it:
-If you bet and they didn't hit, they fold, you gain nothing more. and -If you bet and one have hit, you get reraised and it will have cost you two bets if you call.
But
-If you check and they didn't hit, they also check (that's what happened). and -If you check and one have hit, he bets and it cost you only one bet to call.
So since you might have been outdrawn, you may want to choose the economic option. But if you know the players will not bluff, maybe a raise is good because if you get reraised you can fold, and if you get called and win, you have more money in the pot.
Is my thinking making sense?
David
I like your check. The Kh is a most dangerous card as it makes for any open ender and flush draw that either opponenets can carry.
However, if one of the other players bet when you check, you must call. The pot is big, and unless they do not bluff at all, you must pay them off to see their hand.
The Fish
You couldn't have played it any better. I know you want to bet for value with those aces. You don't have the position to do that and that board is bad bad bad. Remember this, they have been calling you all that way with something. Checking the river does a couple neat things.
1. In LL it is not uncommon for a novice player to try a bluff on the end or suddenly decide that hand he has been calling with is good and bet. In other words, bet your hand for you.
2. It only costs you one bet instead of two if someone did make their draw. That board is very very scary.
If somone did bet, I would probably make a crying call here.. unless perhaps there was a bet and a raise. From your position checking those Aces was the perfect thing to do.
If you are still learning how to play, this is a good lesson on position and how important it is. Say you were on the button and those same two guys checked to you. Now you have all the information instead of only part of it.
I still probably wouldn't bet this hand for value but at least I would give it stronger consideration if I was on the button and had seen what the other players had done. Aces are just hard to play..correctly.
A lot of LL players just love to check raise on the river. I dunno why. I guess its because check raising someone is cool! :)
Regards,
Joe
I believe checking is correct here. There is another player to be heard from and there are too many ways for you to be beat here. A flush, a straight, even two pair is not out of the question. How often will a worse hand call? I would check and call if anyone bets. However, you must realize that this is not a major poker decision but rather a fraction of a bet over time situation.
Thanks everyone. Very helpful.
It depends loads on your opponents. What was the action like pre-flop?
I reckon nobody were playing a closed straight, that's bad business unless you are certain the over-card (ace) will win you the pot, too.
As for the flush, the best heart-hand anyone could have been playing is AJ. If anyone had AJ, they would have played it aggressively post-flop. You don't slow-play a draw, while the MORE money you put in and get twice as much into the pot with it (three way pot) is profitable play. With AJ's suited you have about 40% chance of completing a full hand with the last two cards (12 outs out of 47), with the added chances of winning it with an ace on the turn or the river (he can't know you're holding the money cards!) and even semi-bluffing your way to the pot.
So the likely best heart-hand here is probably A9s (even that is a hand some people will play tough with such a flop). A9s is not the best of hands. You certainly not put a re-raiser on it, hardly even a raiser. In a tight game, I think you can all but write of the chances of both a flush and straight here.
What I am cautios of, is betting with an over-pair in a three-way pot out of fear for two pair. I am talking about after the river card here. My experience tells me (this also goes for playing top pair with best kicker too) that unless I've pulled my two pair on the river (tend to forget those when the pot 'was mine' all the way anyway), there is actually a fair chance someone else have.
With AK on an Kh-8d-3h flop you are probably the winner. Top pair is also likely to be best after the turn. However, after the river, if the ace is still not on the table, not another king and not even a board-pair there is not unlikely someone else have bettered you.
Lars
You have many reasons to bet this hand on the river. First of all in a loose low limit game you'll get lots of calls from really weak hands. If the first player had a hand he would have bet it. The player behind you is more likely to have a calling hand that you beat than a flush. You'll get so many calls in this situation that it costs too much money not to bet it in the long run.
how much can i loosen up my preflop decisions for 7 and 8 handed low limit games vs a full ten person table? the hold em i play is normally missing at least two players. i generally like to use sklansky and malmuth's hand groupings. early: 1-4 limp (raise 1-2) middle: 1-5 limp (raise 1-3) late: 1-6 limp (raise 1-3)
The main difference you'll experience is not getting the number of callers you need for your drawing hands (i.e. small pairs and suited connectors).
The value of big cards and middle pairs will go up.
I don't know how many types of suited connectors you should drop from your repetoire, nor the big cards you should now play (A9o?). Maybe one of the more technically sound players can answer that question.
I've always wondered: As the number of players decreases in a certain game, at what rate do the kind of hands one plays change? When I'm playing short-handed, I often struggle with this concept.
I am playing in this very passive 3-6 HE game. I was the only one doing any raising. I get 89s UTG and I called, hopping nobody will raise. There is no raise and I don't hit the flop. I checked the flop, there is action , I folded. Is this a smart play? If there was a raise, what do I do, call, fold, raise? Thanks.
.
I still think Nine-Eight suited is too weak a hand to limp under the gun despite how passive the game seems. You really want several callers with this hand as well as no raising. You don't want to be out of position against a small field with a weak hand like this. Once you limp, if it is raised you must call. On the flop, folding is probably right when the flop misses you completely and there is any kind of action.
Thank you Jim, your answers always the best. I like your style, I respect you, and I am always looking for your comments in this forum. Good luck and keep them coming.
As a rule, 98s is a very shaky hand UTG even despite the fact the game is passive. Throw it away in the first place.
If you miss the flop, you must fold and wait for the next hand.
I think your play is fine. In low-limit you can frequently loosen up your starting requirements as long as you play well after the flop (if the flopn misses you, toss it). Sounds like that's what you did. I like your play. Was the table really passive or was it that no one was getting any decent cards for a while.
-Michael
Just came back from a trip to the Tropicana in AC where I dropped about $70 at 3-6 hold em. For the first part of my eight hour session, I was just getting horrible cards and quickly found myself stuck almost $250 before making a late comeback. I need some pre-flop advice from you all; I believe I make certain mistakes that really cost me and want to know how you would play certain hands and why.
1) Small pairs in late position (buried fives hurt me); how many callers do you need? What if everyone calls but someone raises in front? I once called $6 with deuces in a raised pot; am I just throwing my money away here?
2) Non-Suited Paints like Queen-king, King-jack, espescially for two small bets. What about Ace-Jack, espescially with a raise (I find I am always drawing really slim here)?
With small pairs in late position and assuming the blinds will play you probably don't need more than about 3 limpers plus the blinds. Your implied odds are usually good when you flop a small set. If it is raised up front with a bunch of callers it is okay to cold-call and hope it doesn't get re-raised. Again your implied odds from flopping a set are normally quite good. You should fold Ace-Jack offsuit, King-Queen offsuit, and King-Jack offsuit when it is raised in front of you regardless of how many others call. It is too easy to be dominated and too hard to end up with the best hand.
1) Small pairs in late position (buried fives hurt me); how many callers do you need? What if everyone calls but someone raises in front? I once called $6 with deuces in a raised pot; am I just throwing my money away here?
I prefer to have 3 callers. If there is a raise and 2-3 people call before you, you can call too.
2) Non-Suited Paints like Queen-king, King-jack, espescially for two small bets. What about Ace-Jack, espescially with a raise (I find I am always drawing really slim here)?
These are trap hands. As a rule, you want to get the first raise in with these. Your problem is it is very easy to make a second best hand with KQ, KJ or AJ. Being suited only helps a little bit. If the pot is raised by a competent player, you should fold these hands.
Small holdem game, my first hand is Q6 off in the BB. 6 limpers. (I check).
Flop is Qd Jd 4c.
I checked with top pair, no kicker, no diamonds. All check.
Turn is a 6d, giving me 2 pair, and putting a 3-flush on board. SB bets, I call, one other caller.
River is 8h. SB checks, I bet, limper calls, SB folds.
I take the pot with 2 pair.
Questions:
1. Should I have bet the flop? I thought top pair, no kicker was pretty weak into 6 players.
2. Should I rasie the turn with 2 pair, even with the 3-flush on board?
My preference here is to lead at the flop in an unraised pot with top pair/no kicker although with this many opponents it is perhaps marginal. But I think you have a tenuous holding that needs protection with a bet here. Having it checked around is bad for you. I think on the turn you must raise with your two pair when bet into because your hand may well be best, no one may have a flush, and you want to drive anyone with a singleton Diamond out of the hand.
I'd say a raise on the turn is definitely called for. A more interesting question is, how likely are you to be re-raised here and what will you reaction be like?
If he cold calls your raise, he *could* be representing better hand that you. An you can check-call on the river.
Lars
1. What hands do you fear on the flop? AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ? Who would limp pre-flop with AA, KK, AK? If they have any of these 5 hands post-flop, they should bet, especially to thin the field, so I wouldn't fear them. I'd fear a stronger Q, say KQ or QJ. Even with TOP-NO KICKER, I'd bet. You can get information on the cheap round to help you decide how to play the rest of this hand. Never give the draws a free card to beat you. 2. This is the harder question. Do you fear the flush? If yes, then just check, but if you had bet the flop, this decision would be easier, because you'd have more info.
Hi, bet the flop to fold out sm pr's. LOL ron
Betting this hand into 5 other players would usually be a bad idea. With the flush and the Q-J combo, there will be a lot of hands that will want to continue with the hand, and you will be hard pressed to know where you are. I like the check on the flop. I would raise the turn, though.
Questions:
1. Should I have bet the flop? I thought top pair, no kicker was pretty weak into 6 players.
It is usually correct to check with top-pair, no
kicker and 6 opponents. If the button bets, then
you can raise in an attempt to get heads up.
2. Should I rasie the turn with 2 pair, even with the 3-flush on board?
Yes, if someone has a flush draw, they would bet.
It does not look like your up against a flush yet.
However, you will likely get called by the ace
or king of diamonds.
Hi everyone,
I've been in a loose-passive 3-6 game yesterday and it was my first casino experience. I did bad and need some advice. The table was terrible, there were 6 suckers 3 average players and me. I have read a few solid books, I'm a winning home game player, I've been reading posts from 2+2 on 3-6 games for a while and I tought I was well prepared for casino.
For the first two and a half hour I was doing fine, I estimated I could make maybe 6$/hour with decent strating hands. I kept playing tight all the time and nobody seemed to notice. The bad players were really bad, playing any ace or king regardless of kicker, calling almost all the way to the river with a medium pair, not raising with good hands it seemed like a sure win. There was this lady to my right who kept flashings her cards to me, and I could see she played total garbage.
After I came back from dinner (leaving my chips on the table), things started to go bad. I couldn't get any good strating hands, or when I had one, it didn't held up. I could see other players were playing anything, but I didn't fall into the trap of strating to play like them, So I kept playing tight, but my chips were vaporizing slowly. When I got 150$ under, I decided to stand up and leave after three hours losing constently. I tought I was doing something wrong, but didn't know what.
Is losing 150$ in three hours of bad cards a normal streak? (in fact it's really 5½ hour total) Did I lose fast, slow or normal?
Should I loosen up on starting hand requirements in a game like that? Should I play more hands like king-little suited and small pairs in mid to early position? (I played them in late position)
Do you have some general advice for those type of games? I think I was playing ok, I may have made a few tactical mistkes but I didn't steam at any moment, keeping control on myself, what did I do wrong? Was I just unlucky? In 5½ hour, I got one Ace High Straight and a set of Queens, I can't remember a home game were I got so few good hands. Is it because the deal is slower in casinos and we see fewer hands?
Best regards and happy holidays!
David Saintonge
Is losing 150$ in three hours of bad cards a normal streak? (in fact it's really 5½ hour total) Did I lose fast, slow or normal?
It is not rare to lose at this rate. Bad players do it all the time.
Should I loosen up on starting hand requirements in a game like that? Should I play more hands like king-little suited and small pairs in mid to early position? (I played them in late position)
You should stick to your standards. The one exception you can make is play small pairs "out of position". Kxs is a disaster hand.
Do you have some general advice for those type of games? I think I was playing ok, I may have made a few tactical mistkes but I didn't steam at any moment, keeping control on myself, what did I do wrong? Was I just unlucky? In 5½ hour, I got one Ace High Straight and a set of Queens, I can't remember a home game were I got so few good hands. Is it because the deal is slower in casinos and we see fewer hands?
These games are a game of patience. You may very well lose money especially if your not picking up hands. You also are not playing with all the tools. For instance, bluffing is a waste and slowplaying is usually not correct. Think over a 500 hour period versus 1 night. Stick to your standards, it is the best chance you have to win. In a casino, the game is usually faster because the center dealer does not play and can concentrate on running the game.
A good player can easily lose 150 in 5 1/2 hours at those limits. More easily than a passive bad player, in fact. A good player's aggression is what makes him/her vunerable to fluctuation.
Yes, but this is balanced out by the fact a good player usually has much better judgement, especially on the flop. My main concern is don't radically alter a good game plan based on a single losing night.
"My main concern is don't radically alter a good game plan after a single losing night"
I agree, which is why I posted. To let David know that he isn't necessarily a bad player because he lost that amount of money in that game. It seemed as though that was what you were implying.
Hi, all the adivice is good, you might in that game play less hands. fold small pr always and play only suit connected 1 gap. Except As' What you want is to play hand that make big winner Big STR (so if you don't connect with str you might win with big pr's) , Flush, big pr's no small connect It will be boring so quit earlie or change tables several times. What i am trying to say is play half as many hands, you said they did not notice your tight play. so be tighter LOL ron
David,
I first played holdem in the casino just over a year ago and have had the exact same concerns and frustration you experienced during your baptismal (except that my first visit was actually a win), so I identified with your post. In the last 14 months I have visited the casino 24 times and currently stand at -$400 after just over 100 hours of play - be sure to track it. I think most of the players in the gaem are terrible...I have read all the books, win in the home game etc... its been very, very frustrating to be in the red.
What Ive learned, and what you have to learn is that you CANNOT leave the casino focussed on how much you are up or down. You must leave asking yourself: How well did I play? If upon reflection (honesty is important here) you played well, pat yourself on the back, even if you came out -$150. I know some of my bigger losses came when I played well, but of course, many when I played poorly.
Ive also learned that Hold'em really is a complicated game and that there is no substitute for table experience, no matter how much you read. And, of course you can easily lose $150 in five hours when playing great, and it seems from your letter that you know this is the case. Some of the early losses may have to be written of as dues to learn the ropes, thats why you play 3-6.
Am I a long run winner who is due? or a one bet per hour loser? I have no idea, its simply too early to tell. As a recreational player I just want to be able to play for free or make a small hourly rate. Based on the variance I experience Im sure ill need to play at least 500 hours to really have some idea.
Good Luck
Canuck.
David,
Your post struck me as exactly akin to my situation. I just started playing in the casinos about 2 weeks ago. Have 6 sessions under my belt (mostly 4-8 games, some 1-4-8-8), with one $28 win and 5 average $100 losses. Average length of session was 4 hours.
I was very discouraged after my fifth loss last week. But then I remembered my home poker learning experience in college, and how I used to be a consistent loser until turning out to be a consistent winner. Of course, in those days, there were no poker books, no internet and no Turbo Texas Hold'em.
Speaking of TTH, I didn't attempt my first casino session until I could consistently beat TTH. Thought I was ready for the big time then, but soon learned otherwise. Which makes me wonder, is TTH programed to make the player a winner so that he feels good about himself?
Anyway, I'm going to hang in there and plug away. BTW, some of my games were not No Fold'em. There were a lot of good local players in there.
Papio
Hi David!
Good to hear you made the big step.
It's hard to say if you played well or not without being there... Certainly, you could have played perfectly and lose the 150$. This is normal fluctuation IMO. I was in your exact situation when I started.
So I can only offer some general advice as I too had read the books, knew the theory etc ... But still I bombed in the beginning.
First off, a good set of starting hands is critical, I'm sure you know what you are doing here. It's also important to know how to play on the flop and beyond. This takes a little bit more time.
You must also adjust your play to game conditions. Thus any pair could be palyed from an early postition in some games (loose-superpassives)and not in most. etc... It is not only the cards that you play but how many opponents have already called the blind bet. Are they good , bad , loose, tight, etc.
What are your criteria for calling raises cold when a good player raises, when a bad player raises etc.
These were all areas where I needed work when I started.
Hope this helped, keep the faith...
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
Thanks to everyone!
Rethinking about my session, I found I have made a couple of mistakes and that I could have lost less. Maybe my definition of tight play wasn't accurate.
Playing ATo in mid position for example is something I sould have avoided, I think that KJ is also a hand I should throw away in the future. I have ordered the Lee Jones book and hope this will get me out of trouble for the next session, I'm also learning a lot from the Wilson software these days. Still I know you can't buy experience at the table for 19.95$, so I'll give it another try after more rethinking and adjusting.
Anyway, thanks to all of you,
David Saintonge
First off: play ALL pairs, even UTG Of big unsuited hands, only play AK, AQ, AJ and KQ. Big suited hands: any A/K/Q/J/Ts combination,
Suited connectors: T9s and 98s, even 87s to 54s if the game is very passive. HFAP also advises that you play any Axs UTG (six others should see the flop with you when you play these hands).
UTG raise with AA, KK, QQ, AKs and AQs.
David,
Good post, your experience was similar to a LOT of new players.
First, unless you are playing hours and hours of 9-handed Hold Em at home, there is almost NO similarity between your home game and a game at the casino and you must play them differently.
You mentioned you did not get many good starting hands and the good ones you did get did not hold up. This happens and there is not much you can do about it.
You didn't mention much about how you played after the flop, other than mention you "made a few tactical mistakes." Very often, the mistakes I made after the flop had a lot to do with my final result.
One thing to consider is how much you lost on the hands you did play. Were you leading going into the river, or did you "get married" to losing hands, hanging onto them when they were obvious losers?
Did you let go of good draws when you had proper odds and enough passive players to call? Did you always know what kind of odds you were getting? Did you know the size of the pot at all times and act accordingly?
These are some of the reasons I lost in games against bad players, and very often are the reasons I see new players lose. Especially the one about holding onto losers too long.
In games with really bad players, you are going to have some REALLY bad streaks of hands not holding up.
However, if you play good poker with those players long enough, eventually you are going to get the money. If you don't play good poker (on EVERY betting round), you will probably run out of money before their bad play catches up with them.
I have had a lot of sessions at 3/6 where I just had to sit there for hours with bad players and wait for their bad play to bite them when I was in the pot. It can be a LONG freaking wait. Sometimes I had to leave before it came around and sometimes they busted out before I catch any cards.
You seem to have a good grasp on what good starting hands are. Try to learn more about what hands are good from what position and why. You also need to concentrate more on good post flop strategy. Unfortunately, that kind of skills are tough to acquire and only come through experience and study.
Losing $150 at 3/6 in a 5 hour session is not unheard of in a game full of bad players.
You asked about loosening up your starting hand requirements. You can do this, but you must meet these two conditions:
1. You have to be *very* sure there will not be a raise behind you. When you loosen your starting requirements, you need to play those extra hands cheap.
2. You must be skilled at post flop play. For example, you cannot get married to Axs if an A flops and you don't have a flush draw.
For most people whg are just starting, I would say that loosening up would be a bad idea. As you gain experience and confidence in playing in this type of game, your winning will increase.
Good luck!
$2/$4 Hold'em ive got [ Ad 3d ] late position. 3 limpers ahead of me, i call, sb calls, bb checks.
*** FLOP *** : [ Kd As 6d ] 1 player checks, 2 limp someone raises ($4) i call and so do 3 others
*** TURN *** : [ Kd As 6d ] [ Ts ] player a: Check player b: Bet ($4) player c: Raise ($8)
do i cold call $8 with my nut flush draw? the pot is around $60 at this point.
You are getting 6 to 1 pot odds on a 4 to 1 draw. This is an easy call. With implied odds (river calls) this call is even easier.
Not entirely true Emmett. There are nine diamonds left, but the diamond ten might well give someone a full in an action pot like this.
Lars
Hi, still call but watch the board. You will win big or lose twice as much . LOL Ron
The turn is still an easy call.
Cut down your outs by one(still questionable at this point) and you still have a better than four to one shot with the pot laying you six to one odds on the turn.
The river is gravy- either A)You make a nut flush, and gather at least two big bets; B)You draw the ten, calling bets from the front(this will happen 12 percent of the time in the given scenario); C) You fold with clear conscience, not having made your hand.
Implied odds make this puppy a profit hand.
Our friend dsaf didn't give quite the detail that I'd like for our discussion, but I think his outline makes it clear that a call is good poker.
An alternative play is to reraise on the flop as you are getting good odds with so many people in and you have top pair. You are 2-1 to make your flush at this point, and it may buy a free card on the turn if you choose.
If it is checked to you, I usually prefer to bet the turn if a blank falls because you might then get a free showdown with top pair if you miss and an extra bet if you do hit your flush. However, in this case I would go for a free card since it is likely someone may checkraise the turn with all the action on the flop (2 pair or trips may be out).
do i cold call $8 with my nut flush draw? the pot is around $60 at this point.
Absolutely.
$2/$4 Hold'em ive got [ Th Ad ] in early position.
pre flop: utg : Fold me : Call ($2) middle : Call ($2) late: Call ($2) button : Call ($2) sb: Call ($1) bb: Check
*** FLOP *** : [ Qd Qs 6d ] sb : Bet ($2) bb: Fold me : Call ($2) mid player : Call ($2) late : Call ($2) button : Call ($2)
*** TURN *** : [ Qd Qs 6d ] [ 7c ] sb : Check me : Check mid player : Bet ($4) late player: Fold button: Call ($4) sb: Call ($4)
do i call with my overcards here in the hopes that top two pair would be good if it hits? or do i fold fearing that one of the others has one of the other two queens? please reply with your educated logical reasons as to why. thanks in advance.
I think most will agree with me here: Don't play overcards on a board like this. Even on the flop.
There are too many ways to make a second best hand. Your ace of diamonds could make a runner-runner flush(approximately 5 percent of the time).
If your ace or ten pairs, what are you going to do? A ten would give you the best hand, but look out for those queens and a straight or flush(if its the ten of diamonds).
An ace would give you a hand that has a bad kicker. In either case you'd have to check and call, an expensive chance to take for such a weak payout.
Do yourself a favor and fold this hand. You probably shouldn't have played it in the first place, in early position.
Emmett makes some good points here. Although, I don't think your call pre-flop was all that bad especially if this game was passive, I do think you have a clear fold on the flop. I would get very nervous when the SB bets into this flop. Even if the SB didn't have a Q, by calling his bet you are inviting yourself to get trapped. What were you going to do if one of the players behind you raises?
Your call on the turn was even worse. You have absolutely nothing. As Emmett said, if by some miracle you hit a 10 or A on the river it will more than likely be the 2nd or 3rd best hand. And if a blank hits the river, you will have wasted 1 1/2 big bets because you won't be able to call.
Dump A-10os in early position for the rest of your life and save lots of money.
Hi, what could the sb have, QUEEN s' or Q anything fold alot of player will play a q- anything in the sb and now the sb bet!
You can play a-10 early if you KNOW the table is very pasive, but you can not bet even if you hit the A and you need to fold even if ten falls if the flop is something like k - j 10 so it is not a very strong hand and in early positions it will just cost more than you will win LOL Ron
You missed the flop with AT and a QQ6 board. You should fold because if someone has a Queen, you are dead. Even if someone has a 6, your still a big dog to catch up.
dude.. 5 players saw that flop
somebody will have a queen quite often. Its usualy the one trying to get people to put money in the pot. Its not your flop. Theres a bunch of people behind you left to act. Any one of them might raise. Even a flush draw might raise. Yes, there is a flush draw and you dont have it. More reason to fold.
As it is you called.
And suprise everybody called behind you. Nice game. Even if you hit your best card on the turn you should probably fold if somebody bets. Its over! Somebody must have a queen. The flush still may come. This is bad news. Somebody is holding a bazooka in this pot and its simply not you. RUN FOR YOUR LIFE
- Joe in Connecticut
Playing $2/4 on the internet. There were 9 players in the hand. UTG folded. Next player raised and the player after raised again. It was folded to me on the button. I called with a pair of threes. Was that a mistake?
The blinds folded and the original raiser called. Three of us took a 2 3 T rainbow flop. The first player bet, second folded and I raised. Was that a mistake? It seems like I killed part of my implied odds by not just calling and then going for a reraise on the turn.
Thanks- Mark
You should have folded to a 3 bet with 33. Your don't have the implied odds to get paid off if a set hits. There is also a decent chance one or more of the raisers has a bigger pair than 33. Your best hope is they both have 2 overcards.
In a heads up situation on the flop, I would have slowplayed the set. Unless your opponent has 3 tens, you are a huge favorite to win. Your opponent likely has an overpair or maybe AT. He probably would bet the turn, then you can raise and maybe get him chasing.
You should have folded pre-flop. You paid way too much to see the flop. Small pocket pairs along with suited connectors are speculative hands, hands that are weak but with the right flop can turn into monsters (Mike Caro), need high pot odds with you investing as little of your own money pre-flop as possible. Your odds of hitting a set are roughly 7-1, and you clearly were not getting that. Also, with a raise and a re-raise from early position players, there is very little chance your hand is going to be any good unless you hit the 3. At least one of the 2 players will have JJ or better unless they are idiots.
On the flop, I would raise the flop. There is a good chance that the original raiser is holding a big pocket pair and you may get excessive action from him until he figures out he is beat. Also, because your opponent did not cap pre-flop, he probably does not have AA or KK. If one of these cards hits the turn he will probably check-call to the river or check-fold. Get your money in while you have the best hand.
if the flop was suited or looking like a straight i would definitely raise and reraise on the flop.
BUT you said it was rainbow 2 3 T so you definitely have yourself an oppurtunity to slowplay it on the flop and go for the throat on the turn and river.
raising on the flop and slowing them down for when the big bets come on the turn would be so tragic in this case. if it goes to raising on the on the flop you will easily slow down conservative or shellshocked players who will switch to check/call mode on the turn and river. you REALLY want to have them betting into you on the turn. if they have two pair they may even raise back at you! ok ive driven this into the ground.. it's just that maximizing your profit on these flopped sets is so important.
You already know the answer to your first question, and the three responses confirmed it. You can't pay three bets to see the flop with a small pocket pair unless you have good reason to expect LOTS of callers; even then you could be asking for trouble - sets are not bullet proof [especially small ones] even when you're lucky enough to flop them. If you insist on playing this hand - maybe it's your lucky hand or you are on an incredible rush (neither of these are acceptable reasons to play it, but at 2-4 it's OK to have a little fun once in a while) - the proper play is to cap it to chase the blinds and hope you can out-maneuver the two raisors post-flop (when you don't hit your hand). The problem with this plan is that if either of the raisors has a big pair [especially "AA"], he/she isn't going anywhere. Your best chance is if the first raisor has something like KQs and the second has KK or QQ. If an Ace comes on either the flop or turn they MAY flee the scene, but at these stakes I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
Bottom line - you goofed. If you learned from this experience it was probably worth the $6.
Problem - you probably didn't learn; you got lucky and found a "3" in the flop. If you use this as an excuse to justify your pre-flop call, on-line poker (or poker in general) could become an expensive hobby.
QUESTION #2 - Raisisng the flop was NOT a bad play; you could have played it either way, but if one of them DOES have a big pair you could find yourself in the middle of a raising war - a war you are going to win nearly every time. (I hope the first raisor wasn't holding "TT"; seems slim since if he was I doubt he would have bet the flop). Sometimes straightforward play is the trickiest way to go about it - in all likelyhood he put you on a Ten and probably re-raised or at least called.
It sounds like you have a few things to learn, but at least you're asking for help instead of assuming you must have done the right thing since you [I assume] won the pot.
Best wishes,
J-D
Your call was pretty terrible. When you play pocket pairs you want many players to see the flop (because your odds of flopping a set are 7.5-to-1). You could also play 33 in 2-handed games, perhaps 3-handed if you can see the flop cheaply. Next time discard your 33 in such a situation.
calling BTF was a huge mistake. you need 5:1 minimum to play threes or you need it to be heads up where you might be a slight favorite BTF. Playing threes against two other players for several bets has to be the worst situation possible for a tiny pocket pair!
on the flop you should RAISE. Waiting till the turn to raise a set is a fallacy that many players seem to think is always the best play. IMO, you will almost always win a bigger pot by playing sets fast. In this particular case the bettor may very well have folded to your raise on the turn, but may very well call you to the end if you raise the flop then he checks to you on the turn.
Sometimes you might win more by waiting till the turn to raise a set, but since you called pre-flop with pocket threes, for three bets, in a 3-way pot, you are probably not ready to recognize these situations and should probably play every set fast all the time until your play improves.
dave in cali
Thanks for all the advice. Obviously I'm a beginner and still have some major things to work on.
Not that it will effect my decision in the future, but in this case it worked out. I raised with the set of threes on the flop. Turn was a ten giving me a full house. Other player checked to me and I bet. Call, river was a blank, check, bet and call.
My problem here was that in a lot of my games (this one included) I get people raising and isolating with hands like any ace or JTo. Obviously this isn't the starting hand to try to take advantage of that...
Thanks- Mark
Merry Christmas, everyone. Back online for a while before going over to mom's, and I wanted to share a hand from last Friday night.
Usual loose, passive 3-6 game until Raising Rudy sits down. Rudy only plays a couple of times a month, and when he does, it is Action Central. I have seen him raise every hand for an hour straight, and think nothing of it. Of course, it is only a matter of time until he burns 'em up, but it's sometimes fun to watch.
He sits in 2 to my right, not a bad spot for me. He's having a good time, pounding back the double Sambuca's. On this particular hand, RR is UTG and of course raises. He gets 2 or 3 coldcallers around the table, including Phil on the button. Now Phil is generally a fairly decent player, as a rule. He is certainly a cut above the norm in this game, and on this night, he was running all over the game. Had at least four racks in front of him. About 5 players( I was out so I didn't notice exactly how many) take the flop of 9-8-2 rainbow.
BB checks, RR checks, and it goes all the way to the button, who bets. BB calls, RR check-raises. Folded to button, who calls, BB calls.
Turn pairs the 8. BB and RR check, Phil bets again. BB folds, RR check-raises again! Phil calls.
River is a 7. RR checks(!), button bets, and RR check-raises a third time. By this time, a couple of us can't help but giggle a bit at what's going on, and Phil calls. Rudy shows down 8d-6d for trip 8's, and Phil turns over J-To for the straight.
Raising Rudy gets in a pre-flop raise, three check-raises and still loses the hand. I've got in 2 check-raises on a hand once or twice in the right circumstances, but won the hands. I had never seen 3 in one hand before.
Dunc
Is this a hand played on the west coast? Because back in AC there is this guy that some of us called eddie the reraiser. Eddie's first raises are generally to be respected, but he will reraise with all kinds of crapola, especially if he can get in a limp-reraise when there are lots of players in the hand. He just likes to build huge pots! I think eddie has a brother on the west coast....
Seriously though, if there was ever a case of someone over-playing a hand, this is it.
dave in cali
Perhaps you remember my friend Peter. He's young, big and Polish, and a good player. One hand he got in three check-raises against Jerry (the tall one who smokes and talks a lot). I don't remember the outcome, just the three check-raises.
Eric
the coup de grace in holdem is the triple checkraise, not because its the best play, but because it is total ownership. I know a friend who has gotten it in three times. here is onehand with textbook execution.
pocket fours in the big blind.
flop: 4-7-7 two spades
you check, UTG bets, a few call, you raise, UTG reraised all fold, you call.
turn is a blank
now you checkraise.
river is a 4.
Clearly, you have the triple in the back pocket, just don't panic and bet out. Check ---UTG "full house, full house can't miss a bet with a full house" bet. You raise and can go home celebrating pokers finest achievement.
F
In my younger days, not knowing much about poker, I triple check-raised a vegas rock.
I had a flush draw, I'm guessing he had two pair or a set, but I was completely oblivious to reading hands then.
We were heads-up from the flop on, and I kept checking to him. He knew that I would raise every time(except the flop) but was so stubborn that he bet out on the turn and river anyway!
Needless to say, I got the flush, but two check-raises with a flush draw heads up? What a pathetic piece of poker doo-doo I was! And I thought it was a great play, congratulating myself for the rest of the week.
Oh well, reminds me that I still have a lot to learn.
An internet game which was very loose, but not really aggressive. Also, it was not passive.
10 handed, I am in the cutoff with TT. UTG raises, and there are 3 callers to me. It's likely that the SB and BB will call in this game, so it could be 6 handed for the flop if I call.
What do I do? I have seen most other players here stick around through the turn and river with overcards to the flop. So, I think it's quite unlikely that a pair of 10s will win this hand. Am I correct in treating this like a middle pair? (And if so, is this multiway enough to call a raise?)
I didn't think that reraising to drive out the button and blinds to keep it 4 handed was the play. If I didn't hit a set on the flop, I would not be in good shape; I'd probably be playing with 2 outs, yet there'd likely be enough money in the pot so I'd have to chase for a while. Even if I were in the lead, my lead would be thin and I'd be a favorite to get beaten. Am I being too pessimisstic?
If the game could be six-handed for the flop, you are getting odds on flopping a set or 7-8-9 rainbow.
Call, and only play trips, fulls or top straight draw after the flop.
Lars
Unless you know the raisor to only raise with "the big four" ( AA, KK, QQ, AKs ), you are likely holding the best hand at this moment; if these are the only hands he will raise with you are very UNLIKELY to be holding the best hand. Against a "typical" - if there is such a thing - UTG raise you are probably in the lead.
( This "typical" player will always raise with AA-QQ + AK[suited or not]. He will usually raise with JJ + AQs. He is 50/50 to raise with AQ. He usually will NOT - but sometimes will - raise with AJs + KQs.)
Now that I've said all that, in this case what the raisor is likely to have is not terribly significant.
If you are in the cut-off facing an UTG raise, three cold-callers, and "blinds that will probably call" ( and you are able to handle yourself pretty well post-flop ), "TT" is an automatic call; you would have a fairly easy call with ANY pair under these circumstances. Even if one of the blinds re-raises [ which will probably result in a cap ] you are OK as long as the 3 original cold-callers could be relied upon to call for two more bets - even 2 out of 3 would be enough. With small pairs ( those that have no signifcant chance of winning without improvement, i.e. "66" or lower ), you would prefer to see the flop as cheaply as possible, but if a large number of players are in there with you ( I like to have at least five other callers ) you are going to show a profit even if you have to put in the maximum pre-flop.
- Note: putting in three or four bets with a small pair against a large field - even though it does show a profit - is a very high varience play, but you didn't ask about fluctuations, you asked whether it was profitable; long-term it is.
As to your specific question regarding "TT", if you aren't prepared to pay two bets to play this hand ( from the second best position available ) in a six or seven handed pot, you are playing too tight and will never win a worthwhile amount at this game, although playing "bone tight" will probably allow you to eek out a tiny profit due to the small "cost" [ blind structure ] of hold'em. ( This assumes you are against players who don't notice how tight you are playing. Against opponents who are paying attention you will have a very hard time breaking even; winning is probably out of your reach.)
Think about it for a second - you are wondering whether or not to call with what is likely the best hand pre-flop. This hand that can improve to a monster, and when it doesn't (and it usually won't ) it still stands a far better than average chance of winning unimproved.
True, when an overcard comes on the flop ( and you don't snare a "T" ) you will often have to fold; when more than one comes you will almost always have to fold - and one or more will come ( without a Ten ) more than half of the time.
I have to go for now, but think about what I've written about; I am not the reigning champion, get some other opinions. I will be very suprised if any WINNING player tells you that folding is an option he would even consider here.
You should be pondering the merits of re-raising as opposed to just calling. I'm not saying that a re-raise is the best choice, but it is an alternative worthy of consideration.
Folding is not.
J-d
And keep in mind that it's a bit better than even money you'll find yourself against a face card or an ace on the flop. With the UTG raiser and at least three callers you'll very likely have to dump the 10s more often than not. Not to say you should dump preflop in this situation.
you have it totally wrong here with your reasoning. you should call because it is likely the blinds will call making it 6-way, thus giving you the minimum 5:1 needed to play a pair on the basis of trying to make a set. reraising does not make sense here because you will not reduce the field enough to make it worth it.
however, once you see the flop, if you do not have an overpair or a set of tens, you should FOLD most of the time, like 99% of the time!
you wrote: "If I didn't hit a set on the flop, I would not be in good shape; I'd probably be playing with 2 outs, yet there'd likely be enough money in the pot so I'd have to chase for a while. "
chasing with a pocket pair once overcards flop is bad poker. there are RARE occasions when it might be correct to peel one off but if you are commonly following this course of action you are going to lose a lot of chips.
Tens are treated like a pocket pair BTF, not like middle pair. once the flop comes, they are treated like a pocket pair! if there are overcards, you will usually fold. middle pair usually has 5 outs to make two pair or trips, pocket pairs only have 2 outs at best.
dave in cali
You go Dave!
CV
If I didn't hit a set on the flop, I would not be in good shape; I'd probably be playing with 2 outs, yet there'd likely be enough money in the pot so I'd have to chase for a while.
Take the fins off
'_'
"If I didn't hit a set on the flop, I would not be in good shape; I'd probably be playing with 2 outs, yet there'd likely be enough money in the pot so I'd have to chase for a while.
Take the fins off "
Right - I was thinking that with the 12 SBs in the pot I would be getting odds to chase the set once more ... but it's about a 22:1 shot to hit, not a 11:1; I didved by 2 one too many times.
So this will be an easy one to let go of if overcards hit.
a comment such as "take the fins off" needs to be supported by some sort of reason for your statement or you are simply talking trash. perhaps the original poster is a fish but I would never believe that based on your post here.
plus I think you meant to respond to the original poster, not me (since I was quoting). either way, the same comments still apply. Support your statements with logical arguements or you are simply taking up valuable forum space with trash talk.
dave in cali
you have it totally wrong here with your reasoning. you should call because it is likely the blinds will call making it 6-way, thus giving you the minimum 5:1 needed to play a pair on the basis of trying to make a set. reraising does not make sense here because you will not reduce the field enough to make it worth it.
Thanks, Dave. This is the info I was after. I have read that for these pairs where there are likely to be overcards, what you don't want is 3-4 callers. In those cases, you don't have the odds for a set, and the multiway aspect takes value away from the pair.
Given that I didn't want to reraise for that reason, I had no intuition on playing something that needs to flop a set for 2 bets.
In my opinion, as I've already shared with you, definitely call with TT for a six-handed flop.
However, I object to going any further with it if no overcards come and you still haven't flopped a set. This is unless, as said, you flop a straight draw, highly preferably 7-8-9 rainbow.
Why should you fold TT with a flop like 3h-5c-9c (even though this is probably the best 'missed' flop you are likely to get). Let face it, in a game where six players see the flop, there are likely to be some garbage hands in there. What the betting that someone has actually pulled two pair on this flop? A good straight draw or a flush draw?
What I find most important, is the thought of someone else having a pair on the hand. With this flop, they could either have a higher pair than you or fairly likely flopped *their* set.
One thing is for certain, if you call for the turn card, probably *only* card that will not have you beaten by someone, is a T, and preferably not club.
Lars
I believe that you are basically wrong here in your analysis. when you have an overpair to the board, even if it is tens, you usually have the best hand and are probably a favorite to win the hand. that does not necessarily mean you are always a favorite against the field, sometimes you may be a $$ favorite but a dog to the field. either way, if I have TT and the flop comes 9c 5c 3h, I am going to be raising if there is a bet when it comes to me, or betting if it's checked to me or I'm early.
Assuming that someone will always have two pair or will always draw out on your is fatalistic and you are losing serious value if you always fold in this situation. Assuming that the turn card will always kill you is foolish for the same reasons. Your raises charge the foolish players who are in there with 92o and you get value for your overpair. So what if they draw out, when there is a big field this will happen often. But if you charge them to try, the pots you win will more than make up for the bets you lose when some fish draws out on you.
Also, you seem to be assuming that I would "call for the turn card". How about if the other players are calling MY bet or raise? that makes much more sense. More like CHARGING for the turn card! I am certainly not a calling station and if I have an overpair I am not going to play it like a little girl.
Also, on the example you gave, you said:
"With this flop, they could either have a higher pair than you or fairly likely flopped *their* set".
The flop you gave was "3h-5c-9c". No one will have a higher pair than you unless they have a larger pocket pair, but anyone that made one pair on the flop is behind and should be charged accordingly. Anyone calling with one or two overcards is a DOG to TT with that flop. And automatically assuming that someone flopped a set is nonsense too. Let me see some action and then maybe I'll decide that someone flopped a set, but until then I am assuming my overpair is the best hand. Time to bet or raise, try to catch me by calling my bets.
dave in cali
You definitely have a play with TT. In fact, if the original raiser is a maniac, it's worth a 3 bet. With a likely 6 handed flop, the odds are there to flop a set or an overpair.
TT is a middle pair.
It is true that an overpair is vulnerable with a 6 handed flop. However, because of your position, you can charge the maximum for your opponents to draw out with two overcards or draw hands.
With this many callers already I like letting other, probably worse(than you), players in for the flop. Remember, the more fish in to chase your set(or overpair), the more money you make in low limit.
Did anyone read Cardplayer (Dec. 8, 2000) this month? Roy Cooke alludes to this subject in his column (Real Poker, p.16). He supports smooth calling in certain situations where you can let mistake-prone players in pre-flop. I believe TT in this instance is one of those plays.
I do not, therefore, think re-raising is a viable option.
I believe KJ is a worse strating hand than QJ because of the gap but how much of a difference does it make?
And how about if they are both suited or not?
David Saintonge
I know some of you will tell me the answer is in HFAP or the Lee jones book, the thing is I ordered them both but I'm asking myself the question now!
:o)
HFAP ? n/t
Click on Abbreviations on the bar to the left.
Hi David!
HEFAP (Hold'em For Advanced Players) puts them both in group 3 when suited and 5 when unsuited. The fact that there is a gap in KJ is compensated by the better kicker when you flop a Jack. The fact is, IMO, that they both play pretty much the same way. You should not call any raises with them when they are offsuit and only if you are getting a good return on your investments i.e. if enough players have called the raise when they are suited. Both of these hands could be dominated if a good player raised so as usual, you need to know your opponent and you need to play them well post flop even if you flop top pair, it does not mean you got the goods(if the raise came from a good player).
Generally, you could play the suited combos from early and the unsuited ones from middle.
There is no stricking difference between the 2, IMO.
Hope this helped,
There will be more in HEFAP.
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
No big difference between KJo and QJo. Also read my response to your "No foldem holdem strategy" post a little bit down.
I can't remember what HFAP says about the two hands but I think they are pretty close regardless. However, if I had to chose one I would take K-J. The fact that KJ has a gap makes QJ slightly easier to get a straight but straights happen very rarely. More often than not pairs and kickers come into play. Therefore, KJ woul dhave the advantage over QJ, IMHO.
As always it depends but in general King-Jack offsuit is a better hand than Queen-Jack offsuit. The reason is because when you flop top pair you have the top pair with a decent to excellent kicker in many cases. A top pair of Kings with a Jack kicker is a better holding than a top pair of Queens with a Jack kicker. A top pair of Jacks with a King kicker is significantly better than a top pair of Jacks with a Queen kicker.
Jim- is top pair of jacks w/ king kicker "significantly better" than top pair J w/ Q kicker because of str8 possibilities if a Q were to come?
Perhaps, but that is not the reason I had in mind. The reason that having a big kicker is important is not only because it improves your chances of winning the hand but it ensures that you will get payed off on every street from someone with the same top pair but a worse kicker.
I need some advice!!!! I have played alot of seven card stud but am new to Hold-Em. I really like this game. (hold-em) I started playing a couple of months ago and have been obsessed ever since.I realy want to become great at this game. I think about it all the time. I go out and buy books and stay up all night reading and rereading them. I have crammed so much information in my head in such a short amount of time I think it has hurt me more than helped me. I seemed more confused now then when I first started. I have all of this information in my head. I understand it all, but cant seem to put it all together in my game play. I think my new plan is instead of trying to become this master player, learning every play over night, I will learn a few basic strong concepts and try to own them before moving on. I guess my question is to all you long time players. If you had to take only a few strategies/concepts into a game with you what would they be? I know this is a pretty general question, I am just trying to get a starting point to build a foundation. Thanks in advance. TC
Not necessarily in order:
Don't go on tilt.
Don't lose more in a session than you could win in a session.
Don't get involved in situations where you will have to outplay players with a lot more experience than you.
Know how your hand rates based on how many opponents you face before the flop.
Know how you are going to react before a particular card hits the board.
Don't play drawing hands out of position.
Don't call 2 bets cold with a marginal hand.
Beware of coordinated boards when you hold a big pair.
A-x suited and K-x suited (where x is small) are of minimal value unless you flop perfect to the flush.
If you don't flop to A-K or A-Q, throw it away.
Any more than that and you would just be more confused. Too much knowledge too soon can be dangerous to your bankroll.
Just to add a bit..
Don't play drawing hands out of position.
Why?
Becaused you may be raised and this kills your pot odds.
I would just add:
Learn to count the bets and know the pot odds at all times. This really helps in the decision making process.
Best of it !!
MJ
Pick a good game.
Play tight, watch, and wait.
I haven´t read it myself, but I think you should try to lay your hands on that Lee Jones Low Limit Holdem book, HFAP from 2+2 is also useful.
Apart from that: in loose-passive multiway games when UTG (of course also later) play 1) any A/K/Q/J/Ts combinations and any pocket pairs, they make the money. 2) Apart from that also play AKo and AQo, perhaps AJo and KQo. 3) Axs and suited connectors can also be played if the game is really passive, but you have to be able to get away if you flop a pair of aces with no kicker if the action gets going.
Only bet/raise for value, the game is loose!, so you´ll get called by a lot of hands.
I would concentrate on pre-flop strategy at first. Play tight before the flop. Know when to call, fold, raise, etc. before the flop. You can slowly learn post-flop strategies afterwards. Lee Jones book is fairly good for this. He advocates a tight strategy especially in early position.
Eveyone, THANK YOU. Some of these comments are exactly what I was looking for.
For a beginner I would offer the following advice and concepts regarding a full tabled low limit hold'em game:
1. It will almost always take the best hand to win.
2. To enter a pot I need to have some reason to believe that I have the best hand or that I have a reasonable chance of ending up with the best hand given the size of the pot and what it costs me to chase.
3. When I think I have the best hand I need to make sure to bet my hand.
4. When I think I don't have the best hand and I am therefore chasing I want to get through the hand as cheaply as possible until I make a hand that I think is the best hand.
5. I need to consider the texture of the board, my position, and what it costs me to continue on with my hand as well as just looking at my two cards.
TC,
I think the following concepts and advice would serve a beginner well:
Play fewer hands than your opponents, especially from early position. [And remember hold'em is a game of big cards.]
Do not defend your blinds with garbage.
Raise with AA-JJ, AK, AKs, AQs, and sometimes weaker hands (e.g., medium pairs, big suited connectors) for value and balance.
In multiway pots, it is usually correct to fold after the flop if you do not have a flush draw, open-ender, top pair, or better.
Consider the texture of the board and the number of opponents when evaluating the strength of your hand.
When you hold a made hand that is probably in the lead but vulnerable, it is generally correct to play fast (i.e., bet and raise aggressively), especially when you may force opponents out of the pot. A related principle is that it is seldom correct to slow-play in a loose low-limit game.
On the river, do not bet unless you expect inferior hands will call and/or there is a good chance superior hands will fold.
Pay attention to the action when you are not involved. Note whether players are loose or tight, aggressive or passive. Try to put players on a range of hands.
As usual, great advice. I printed all of it. I know that everything is situational but having a general outline of the areas to evaluate is great.
How about giving general areas of concern for the flop, turn and river situations.
Thanks,
In addition to all the great advice you just got, here is what helped me in my first year:
1. Pick loose, passive games while you are learning. You will hold your losses down when you are losing, and can have good wins when you are winning. I have learned to ask for a table change after just a few hands if I know there are going to be too many pre-flop raises in the game as a result of maniacs. THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT. (Sorry for yelling, but do this)
2. You need experience, so don't be impatient. There is just a lot to learn. Number 1, above, will keep your bankroll under control during this process.
3. When you have a difficult hand in a session, do two things: 1) Post it on this forum. I have learned more in this forum than anything else I have done. 2) Read the sections in your each of poker books that apply to the hand.
Good Luck.
I read from others that when in mid position with mid pocket pairs, 77-TT, that 77, 88 is weak while 99, TT are a lot stronger when faced with a limp and a raise preflop.
I don't get this. The thinking is that you're say in mid position, UTG limps, someone else raises, you should fold with 77 or 88 since they are weak holdings, while 99 is borderline, and TT is a definite call. Why is that? I don't see how 99 or TT is much better than 77 or 88. 99 or TT is only better if the raiser or limper had A9 or A8, then you'd have an overpair to one of their cards. But from the raising, most likely you're facing two overcards or *gasp* an overpair.
My thinking is that if you're playing a pair in this position, it doesn't really matter what it is as long as it's 66 or higher. Also that you don't continue on the flop without a set, an open ended straight draw, or a flop without a A or K, or only one of either J or Q.
Thanks!
Why do you say "as long as it's 6-6 or better". Realize that you're using the same logic as those who say "as long as it's 10-10 or better"
Each higher pair is marginally better than the lower pair because the higher the pair the better your chances are of winning. With 8-8 it's difficult for you to win without hitting the set. If you have an over pair to the board the board is so condensed frequently 2 pair or a str8 will be out there. With 10-10 there is more room under so str8s and 2 pairs are less likely.
I wouldn't agree with anyone who said 9-9 is much stonger than 8-8. But we all have our borderline hands where 9-9 may be playable and 8-8 is a muck.
Personaly my cut off is 88 IF i think i can fold the rest of the field i 3 bet. If a ragged flop shows up and i get check to i bet, If i get bet into i just fold. If they check the turn i bet, if i still have not got any help on the river i just turn my cards over.
If at any time i get bet into and have no draw i probaly fold.
Well the reason why I say only play 66 or better is that 66 has chances to make straights while 55-22 are a lot worse at that. 66 can also make the 2345 straight. But I guess it's not much better than 55!
$3-$6 game. I am in late position.BB leads off. One caller, fold, fold,raise by some guy in middle position, all fold to me.I am holding As,Ad. I reraise.Everyone folds except original raiser. He calls.Flop comes-10s,Ks,Qc. He bets. I decide to raise and see how he reacts. He calls. I assume he is not holding A,J for the straight.If he was I would have expected to be reraised.I dont think he is on a flush draw either, since I am holding the As and the Ks is on the board. I dont think he would have raised in middle position with Qxs, Jxs or smaller pre flop.In order for his pre- flop raise and post flop call to make sense he must be holding QQ JJ or AKs.(possibly 10,10) He probabaly puts me on AA or KK.(thus no reraise if he is holding QQ)The turn comes-Kd. He bets. I think "he obviously does not think I have KK". I know at this point that he probably is holding KK or AKs, and puts me on AA or QQ. I skeptically call. The river is Qh.He checks. I think about betting here trying to represent 4Q,s but decide that he would call anyway with his K,s full. I turn over my AA. He turn over AKs (clubs) I lose. How could I have played this differently? Should I have folded on the turn?
You couldn't have played it differently and you should not have folded on the turn.
I think "clinteroo is completely wrong in this situation. By him betting out on the flop he's representing top pair and testing you. When you raise he slowed down respecting your raise. When he bets on the turn king you muck everytime, if you like money. You have two outs without a big pot. I think fold is your only option.
My worthless opinion
I agree completely. You 3 bet preflop, you raised the flop, and he still bets into you on the turn when the second k comes. Unless you read him as an action guy who will raise on most any scare card, you are done right there on the turn. From your post, you said you were sure he had at lease 1 king on the turn, so why did you stay?
It seems obvious that your opponent is holding at least a King (you said it yourself), so the turn killed your hand here, I would fold right there on 4th st. Laying down pocket AA demands discipline but it saves money.
3-6 loose passive. 10s5s in bb. UTG calls, loose Player (lp) calls, fold, good tight player (tp) raises, folds to me, I call. UTG folds, lp calls.
flop: Qc5c5d I check, lp checks, tp bets. I know that he generally doesn't raise btf with anything but the big 4 or five so I put him on a big over pair or pocket Q's etc. I raise, lp calls, tp reraises, I rraise, lp calls, tp folds?
turn: Ad I bet because I thought lp might be on a draw. lp calls.
river: 3s I bet because I couldn't figure he was in with a 2-4 so maybe the case 5 or Qx. He raises, I call, turns over 2c4c for the straight.
I didn't bat an eye as he explained his flush/straight draw with position and told him good hand and immediately started analyzing my play. One of my greatest weaknesses right now is protecting my blinds. My question is should I have folded the 10s5s btf? was the third raise a bad move with trips against a preflop raiser? Any other critique on my play would be welcomed.
PS: the guy managed to bust out about 20 min after he took that pot so I didn't feel to bad, unfortunatly it wasn't me getting the money.
Calling a tight aggressive player with 10-5 is a mistake. If there had been 3 or 4 more players in the pot the call would have been OK.
I'm no big HE expert by a long shot, but it sounds like you were hoping to put a bad beat on someone by calling a raise w/ your preflop monster of T5.
Once you were in, I see no problems with the way you played it - you charged as much as possible for each card lp peeled off.
G
Calling a raise with T5 was a big mistake. It's also a mistake to try to blame the loss on the other player's poor play. When your slate is clean,,,...
I appreciate the input. I was not trying to blame my bad play on the other person. I have only been playing holdem (longtime stud player) for about 4 months. If you read my whole post you see that I am saying my weakest area is my blind play. That's why I posted the question to people who are more knowledgable than me. After it was over, the first thing I did was analyze my play. I get caught up in the heat of battle sometimes and forget my starting requirements, that's why i'm still learning. I didn't mean to imply I was blaming him more for being in there anymore than me. I now realize neither one of us should have been there. The raiser should have taken the pot before the flop.
Should I look at my blinds this way? If I wouldn't call a bet in any other position with this hand don't call a raise with it in the blind?
If there would have been more callers would I have justified in playing the 10s5s in the bb?
Thanks again.
The situation would have to be just right for me to ever play 10-5. The justification i have heard for playing it is 'you can't make a straight without a 10 or 5.' When evaluating what you play from the blinds, one question that might be worth asking is 'what do i need the flop to look like." 10-5 needs an almost perfect flop (6-7-8, 7-8-9, two 10's or two 5's) to be playable. though you got the 5's here you will not get these flops enough to make playing hands like this (i put a-4 offsuit, j-8, q-9, k-8 in the same category) profitable...
The only times I can think of that it would be right to play T5s would be in the big blind and nobody raised, or in the small blind and after 6 limpers, you had to throw in half a bet. Offsuit, it isn't even worth the half bet.
You need a good hand to call a raise in the blind, because you will be at a disadvantage for the rest of the hand due to your position. The strength of the hand would also have to be adjusted by the position of the raiser; an utg raiser probably has a stronger hand than a late positon raiser.
I recommend you start studying Abdul's starting requirements at posev.com. It will at least get you thinking in the right direction.
Blind play is difficult. I let the pot odds justify my play. If there are 5 or 6 callers to a raise then you're getting 11-1 or better on your call. You can play just about any 2 cards here, but be sure to play well after the flop.
Generally I need connectors, one gap suited or a hand that I would call with on the button (in an unraised pot)to call a reasonable raise. But if the player is tight I prefer not to get involved. Don't give the sharks your money; it's too tough trying to get it back.
You were only getting 5:1 odds when you put in your call of the raise. You do not know what will happen after your bet. Just because you are the BB is not a reason to call the raise.
You need to look at where you stand in a hand. If you were at a full table, and were getting 10 or 12 to 1 when it came to you, maybe it is worth a call. Remember though, a raise behind will reduce those odds.
Getting higher odds does not improve your chances of winning the hand, but when you do win, it will compensate for the times you lose with it. You need to look at the long term expected return on a hand and play it the way you would if you were dealt it every time.
You had 3 others in the pot. I would not play 10-5s on a raise with only 3 others. Especially if it is a tight player raising. 5 player would've have been a different story.
The Fish
"PS: the guy managed to bust out about 20 min after he took that pot so I didn't feel to bad, unfortunatly it wasn't me getting the money. "
Why is this a good thing? Revenge? If a guy is playing that bad, I want him to win money from all the tougher players, so he can give it back to me. This attitude of seeing bad players bust is good, is a sign of a lack of confidence in ones game. One wants to see them lose, to prove to oneself that they are playing wrong, and that one is playing right. Because if a bad player wins, and one loses, then maybe one isnt playing right.
Right is right, whether you win or lose. Whether your draw comes thru, or your aces get cracked. Be happy when a bad player wins. It means he has more money to dish out.
Your right about that. I learn alot from these posts. I wanted to make myself feel better about my own bad play. I have learned a lot not just about my play, but about my attitude at the table. He didn't play any worse of a hand than I did, what gives me the right to worry about what he's doing. Thanks for the input. I think I knew it was a bad play, I just needed you all to pound it through my thick skull.
I've been dabbling in the 1-2 and the 2-4 on Planet Poker, and I was wondering how much of my normal home NL or PL strategy I should apply. I play in a $40 buy-in NL Hold'em home game, and have never played at a casino. I'm doing pretty well online, but only because I've cut down on my bluffing hugely in the past week since it seems that except on very rare occasions, a bluff is certainly not called for. I'm sure this is due to the fact that the stakes are so small, but should I just continue solid tight-aggressive play or should I move up in limits and then play an even more aggressive game?
Thanks a lot, Max
3/6 game, fairly typical lineup. I'm on the button with KcQc.
There are only two limpers to me and I limp. SB folds and BB checks.
The flop comes something like 2c2d4c. Early position limper bets, next limper folds, I call, BB folds. There are six small bets in the pot and it is heads-up.
The turn is something like the 8c. EP bets, I raise, and he re-raises. I call. (Should I fold here? This guy is new to this game, but I've played against him before. He plays way too many starting hands, but he does know how to read the board. I was quite concerned that he was utterly fearless of the flush.)
The river is an irrelevant rag. He bets and I call.
I didn't feel I could get off of this hand. Was I wrong? What about the turn raise?
David
You'd be nuts not to call on the river. The only problem in your play is not raising on the button.
Really? Why chase people out with a drawing hand? If I had more limpers, I might raise for value.
David
Or, if there was only one person in, I'd probably raise to isolate. I don't normally think of this type of play with multiple limpers, though. It doesn't come up alot in 3/6. :-)
David
With only 2 limpers, you probably have the best hand. That means raise. Don't give the blinds a free shot at you.
So what hands would you raise here? Obviously AKs and AQs (I would've too). How about QJs? JTs? KQo?
David
How about all group 4 hands and above. Sounds good to me.
CV
Really? You would raise two limpers on the button with J9s? Am I playing way too passively in this spot? I wouldn't have even considered that.
David
High cards do much better in this situation. I don't think I'd raise with 98s, T9s, or J9s when two players are already in. I think the High cards and pocket pairs work much better. Some Group 5 hands are even worth raising like KJo, QJo.
CV
This seems to me to be an entirely player read based decision. I can think of 3 players at my last table, who I would fold to here on the turn reraise, knowing I was beat. But I can also think of 2, I would call down without a second's hesitation. As for the rest of the table....it is too passive. A 3 bet would have to have me beat. Id fold to them with some thought.
I like a raise BTF and a raise on the flop. Crying calls is more likely to refer to the guy watching you make those calls. Preflop you already have a couple players and you don't want the blinds to get a cheap or free play. your hand is more than good enough to raise with. on the flop I like a raise. on the turn, I like a raise then make crying calls to the river when he makes it 3 on the turn.
dave in cali
Alright everyone, I could do with some advice from you before I do what I've already prepared myself do to: Quit Hold'em. It's extremely hard to do when you've only been playing the game for five months and feel you are a better player that your regular opponents. The fact that I've been losing money over this period just makes the decision harder, because I feel my skills at the table eventually should see me regain this money.
I play in a homegame in Norway, about $2-4 limit with about 6 or 7 players. Maybe one of my bad skills at the table is playing the game like I've read advices on playing it, in a ten man table. I know short-handed tables can work a bit differently and that I may have been playing overtight. I also know that knowing what cards to play pre-flop and that stuff isn't everything and that some of my opponents are perhaps better at playing the man. This is only one or two players though.
I may be a bit predictable, but I still get a lot of action, partly because even though players know they are a dog to me, they also know that underdogs have a tendency to draw excactly the card they need. When I play my hands, which are chosen carefully, I play them quite aggressive. The problem is NOT being too passive.
Pre-flop, most of my opponents have problems folding any ace vs. a raise. I've folded hands like AQ and AJ vs a single raise. Is that why I've been losing money? No, every time this has occured, people have shown better pocket hands at the showdown or thrown their pocket aces on the table in frustration at getting no action with them.
What naturally is the question I ask myself again and again is: Have I been unbelievably unlucky for such a lengthy period of time or am I just not up to scratch? I'll give you the chance to answer after I give you a few excamples of situation appr. within the last 2000 hands or so I've played (4-5 sessions).
Pocket queens, I raise pre-flop. Two callers I think. Flop comes 7-10-Q rainbow. Does it get any better? One caller on my bet. Turn-card is K. My opponent bets, I raise him with the little he has left (about half a big bet) and he turns over AJ. No river luck either, on my 10 outs. A pot of $40.
8h-7h in the small blind in an unraised pot with four limpers I think. I call, big blind check. Flop gives me a straight flush draw. I bet, get raised, re-raise, my opponent caps it, I call. Turn card is a Q of hearts, I know I've got him now, he would never only a flush draw that hard. I bet, he call. River card a 6, which means the board pairs. I check, he bets, I call. Full house, not unexpectedly.
8h-4h in the big blind in an unraised pot, I check, flop comes 5-6-7 two spades. I bet, get one or two callers and turn card is a 3h, which gives me a flush draw as well. I bet, opponent raise, I reraise, he calls. River card, another 6. I check, he bets, I call. Another full. Turns out this guy has been playing a pair of threes vs. my straight after the flop and gets his house. The odds on that???
KK in early position, I raise, get one caller (BB I think). Flop K-J-5 rainbow. I bet, he calls. Turn-card is an ace. He checks, I bet, he calls. River is a Jack, now there's only a Ten missing on a straight, he checks, I check. Q-10, the straight from the turn. Unbelievable, asking me...
BB and getting a bit fed up, admittedly, SB raises me without any other limpers as he often do, trying to steal the blinds. I reraise a bit foolishly on my Q-10. He calls. Flop gives me top pair, and there's a jack in there as well. He checks, I bet, he raise, I reraise, he calls. Turn card is blank, he checks, I bet. River card, a jack. He bets, I call. Not surprisingly, the jack was his saving card giving him a three of a kind. Another fine pot goes amiss.
I reraise a raise from UTG (they don't really play position that much these guys) with pocket queens, another, fairly loose, opponent caps it. We both call. Flop comes, jack high, no flush or straight opportunities. First raisor bets his last money, and I reraise. Cap-it guy reluctantly call. I am already putting him on a middle pair which he can't let go. River is a blank, and I bet into a sidepot. He calls again. River is a nine. He checks, I check, because I know he's probably playing pocket tens or nines here. (Some might even say that's well read by me?). Yes, I am losing out on a $50-plus pot vs a set of nines.
There are many more stories too. I'd say from an as neutral point of view as possible (after all, what I want more than anything is to be able to be brutally honest with myself) that I have about as many 'sick' situations as all the other guys have all-together. I not kidding. This is when it comes to monster flops like nut-straight going to hell, with the table becoming for instance a four-flush at the end, when it comes to people with lower pocket pairs catching their set on the river in huge pots, losing with sets (I've had so many three-of-a-kinds (with two of them on my hand) where the table has been either of four-flush or a four-straight or been beated by more 'hidden' flushes or straights than I can count, and this in five months!). Opponents may have alright pot odds sometimes and a few outs, but that doesn't mean that every time I have a monster hand of the kind which are actually supposed to be your money making hands at the Hold'em table, these outs have to hit.
This must sound like a lot of whingening, but it's just how I feel. I think I might be a permanent loser at the table, but I have a hard time facing these truths(?).
Quitter
I know how you feel. See my post above.
These few hand are most likely not why you are losing. But if you don't enjoy the game, and you can't beat it, quit.
You mean to tell me during the 5 months you've played, nothing has ever stood up? That you have NEVER taken a decent or nice pot? That YOU have never laid a beat on the favorite hand with your Q-6 offsuit?
Try having all top set of Aces cracked with runner-runner deuce high flush draw by some nuthead who called 3 bets cold on the turn! Try having your flopped nut-flush cracked by a guy with pocket threes call you down and win because the queen paired on the turn and another queen came on the river for his dinky fullhouse.
My advice is to adjust your gameplan to the table. If it's loose, be prepared to play more speculative hands in different positions. Of course, be prepared for the swings. In a table full of rocks, I play by the book.
However, if you go into any game thinking this is going to be another shitty day for yourself, you are better off taking up sewing as a hobby. Confidence is a must!
The Fish
The confidence might be a bit off right now, that's right. But I still play tight-aggressive poker, betting strong when I think I have the best hand at the moment (I'm usually right on that one).
The 'bad luck excamples' you give me sounds excactly like the f*cked up stuff I get thrown at me apparantly every night.
I don't believe in playing more loose or more speculative hands in different positions in a loose game. If you loosen up in a loose game, you lose your advantage to the other and play a game strategy they are more use to than you are.
Lars
If the players in this game are playing poorly where is the money going? You said a home game it must be going somewhere if there is no rake. If it is just pushing around in a whirlwind the player playing the best will get it in the long run.
You have to think of the game in terms of positive expectation even though you have been losing you have been taking favorites to win to the end. Eventually the luck will change and the money will come.
In a lose game with lots of callers the best way to make money is have the best draw on the flop and charge the maximum to the others til the river. You will get there often enough and those juicy pots will be your gravy.
One thing I see is alot of river calls, when you know or are not unexpectantly beat. This is one of my main criteria on whether I sit down at a game. Players who call the river when they should know they are beat. I love 'em. If a guy calls along for many bets and raises, and suddenly bets out on the river, mostly they have a great hand. Routinely folding there save quite a bit of money.
Another thing I dont see is very many descriptions on your read of players. Not thier hands, but the players themselves (for example, who *will* bluff the end and who wont). If all you are doing is playing tight upfront and betting aggressively, you may as well be a computer program. You have to use your judgement to read players and get out of pots when you are beat.
Please do not give up on the great game of Hold Em.The problems that I see are two fold,first you are trying no foldem holdem like it is truely holdem IT IS NOT. The game is cheap and people play way too many hands.The 2nd problem is that with a passive table it is almost imposible to get proper play because your actions do not bring the proper responses.So you need to either change your play to match the table (wrong move in this case) or find a game at a higher limit (6-12 min.) and you will find a game that is closer to what you are looking for.
"I may be a bit predictable, but I still get a lot of action, partly because even though players know they are a dog to me, they also know that underdogs have a tendency to draw excactly the card they need. "
This statement is a fallacy. Underdogs tend to miss their draws against you, that is why they are an underdog. That is why you should be betting and raising - to charge the underdog the maximum to try and draw one of his unlikely outs. You have to hurt his pot odds as much as possible.
As for the rest of your post, you seem to have had a run of unfavorable circumstances in the recent past. If you ever want to win at this game, get over it. Holdem is a highly fluctuating game and the cards have no memory as to how you did last week. Hell, I lost almost every single session for nearly a month when I used to play in AC (and I played a lot). But then I won nearly all of it back in two days. At the end of the year I was a winner, plain and simple. Streaks of bad luck can run for a very long time and if you don't have the intestinal fortitude to deal with these situations then holdem just ain't going to be your game.
dave in cali
Just got back from a 5-hour session playing 1-4-8-8 in Biloxi.
First 3 hours, I was dealt about the worst garbage in the 7 years I've been playing. Only one pocket pair the whole time, a pair of 2's. Whoop-de-do. Drawing hands were dealt only in early position. Late position I was dealt garbage like 4-9o every time. Only dealt an Ace 5 times total, 4 times in early position with unsuited garbage. Was dealt A-2s in the cutoff seat once, no action to me, I raised, BB stayed with 6-8o and flopped 2 pair.
So eventually I change seats (3 hours into the session). Sure enough, 3 hands later I get AA. Another guy raises, I re-raise, he caps. Flop comes K-x-x, of course he has pocket K's. Oh well.
A few hands later, I get dealt K-Q in late position. Flop comes J-10-9 rainbow. Great, the nut straight. I come out betting, terminal calling station calls. Turn comes A, I bet out and calling station calls again. River comes Q, calling station turns over K-garbage offsuit to tie me. Well, at least I take some of the pot. A full 3 1/2 hours since I first sat down, I drag my first pot. I've never gone that long ever without winning a pot. (Sidenote - has anyone else?)
I wind up winning a few hands, got KK busted by an AK who flopped trips, and wound up down $180 for the 5-hour session.
I was trying to think what my mistakes were. Game selection? Maybe. The game featured maybe 2 real weak players, but the other 7 knew how to play okay. I find that's a problem in Biloxi - it probably has the best low-limit players in the country, and I've played all over the USA.
I'm beginning to think some of you are right - with the rake at low-limit, it can't be beat unless the game is a wild California-type affair. These don't exist in Biloxi.
I try to do all the "right" things - playing cards by position, playing tight-aggressive, varying my play, etc. In fact, I'm getting downright proud of my reading skills. But nothing worked tonight.
This session isn't isolated. I find the players in Biloxi getting too good at the low-limits. I guess I'll have to quit, like Quitter below. Aside from encouraging me to stay so y'all have one more donator around, any reason I should keep playing?
Thanks.
Mark,
Your 5 hour session sounds like my whole month of December. It is absolutely amazing how one person can keep getting garbage cards for so long and then lose strong hands to an even better hand. Then on the next hand or two someone wins with a pair of sixes, etc.
I'm begining to think that luck plays a much bigger part in this game than most care to admit. If you don't have some luck by getting respectable cards you have no chance of executing your skill.
I still plan to play but I hope I can get back on the winning end and soon. The next time I get ahead even a little bit ($50 or so) I'm thinking I'll walk just to post a win.
Good Luck
Well, just imagine that you could've lost far more if you had played more hands. Sometimes losing a couple hundred isn't so bad. I see players (myself included during my early days) go stuck and never leave trying to catch up. This ended up costing me double the loss I should've had.
One of the prime reasons I love poker is the ability of others who are able to suck out every now and then. As long as I am the favorite with my hands, I will take that player on everytime with his 10-2 offsuit to make a runner runner trip draw on me.
If the fish couldn't suck out, then they wouldn't play. Over the long run, I believe that poker is a game of skill, but short term wise I am always ready for that ugly beat.
When you get stuck, other players notice and they notice that you play a great deal more hands than you should and making calls and draws when you shouldn't. They will take advantage of this. My advice is there are always lots of fish in the sea and tommorow is another fishing day.
The Fish
Richard, I think you are right. Luck is more important than many here give it credit for. You also made a comment that I fully agree with, that if you don't get respectable cards you have no chance to exhibit your skill.
I don't claim to be a great player. Overall, I have won about $1 an hour while playing this year. But this is a far cry from the 1 BB per hour that many people claim. So either they're better players, or playing with weaker players than I am, or a combination of both.
Something interesting, at least to me - the more I learn about the game, the less money I make! There was a time I booked 28 winning sessions out of 30, and I didn't "know" 1/3 as much as I know now. At that time, I knew nothing about position or was well-versed in what a good drawing hand was. I recall playing any two cards that were suited, any two face cards, virtually any A.
By doing these supposedly bad things, I was far more successful. I think I might go back to this.
Sounds EXCACTLY like me Mark. But my opponents still play just about all these cards. While others raise with KJo in any position at a nine-man table, I usually fold them and it's usually the right decision too.
So having adjusted to a more 'proper' game strategy really ought to pay me off. I can't remember how many times I have been beaten with AK or AQ vs garbage ace who gets their low pair. The joke amongst our regulars goes 'Dominated hands is a blessing in our game'.
Quitter
Something interesting, at least to me - the more I learn about the game, the less money I make!
...
By doing these supposedly bad things, I was far more successful. I think I might go back to this.
Don't do that!
I also make no claim to be an expert and I've had all the same experiences as you. But my win rate is climbing. And all of the players that I know that play the way you used to lost money, even if they started out the year well.
Part of the problem is that you are making mistakes that you don't know about. We all do. See the thread I started recently for an example. What people picked out as a mistake is something I never even considered. The moral is that you always need to be looking for what needs improvement. And it's hard, because you don't know which questions to ask. Use losing sessions as a motivation to go through your game with a fine toothed comb looking for leaks. Every time you don't find one, you didn't look hard enough. :-)
David
Good point. I was on a tear-em-up streak early on this year. It wasn't until I got chewed up that I realized I was chasing with my pocket pairs far too often. I just didn't know how much it was costing me while I was winning.
Mark,
I have had the same thoughts recently regarding knowing more and having poorer results. What the heck is that? When I go back and read HPFAP it all makes sense and I feel that I can apply what I’m reading. I remember when I first read HPFAP I simply had to stop because it was over my head. What has really helped me is reading this forum daily and reading Jim Brier’s quiz questions over and over.
Anyway I was going to say if you continue to play please do not go back to your old style of play. I think the principles in HPFAP and the advise from top poster on this forum is the way to play. Playing solid has definitely minimized my losses when I do lose.
This is my first complete losing month on record unless I can change that in the next day or two. Running bad is simply having lousy luck. But like someone else said, cards do not have a memory so I expect my fair share of good cards soon and then exploit then with skill.
Good Luck
I understand what you're saying, but it sure is odd that when I played "bad" cards and didn't know anything about position, I did better. I don't think 28 winning sessions out of 30 is an anomaly.
Low limit sucks,but with those trash hand you got would have lost much more in high limits! I am going to Biloxi in mid Jan . What cocern me in Biloxi not only the dealer knows most of the players by their first name, most of the players know each other very well too!and They are all waiting for a new catch!.
"any reason I should keep playing?"
Can´t answer that question for you, but you seem knowledgeable enough to do that yourself in time.
My record: 4 1/2 hours without a pot.
Losing $150 in this game shouldn't be the end of the world. The way the cards ran against you I would have expected a much bigger loss.
Luck is a very big factor in poker: for a five hour session. It's factor decreases over time. You had a bad night/ bad week/ bad month. It happens. I played last night in a loose/passive game and didn't play a hand for over 2 hours. Seven players calling and I've got a hand on the button I can't call with.
If you play for enjoyment and aren't having fun, quit.If you're playing for profit and can't beat the game then either learn to play better or quit.
Best of Luck
Can you really play for profit at 3-6? You surely cannot play 3-6 for a living right? You can play for enjoyement and of course winning gives you more fun, but if you wanna play for profit, I think 3-6 is more a training ground than a profitable game.
yes you can make money at 3-6. It would be very difficult to make a living at it but at 1 BB an hour that's $12,000 a year.
i know a few people that play 3-6 for a living
5/10 Paradise Poker on-line hand
Me in the BB with {Ah,Kd}
All fold to the Button who calls. SB folds, I raise, Button calls. The Button is an unknown player to me so lets say he is typical.
Flop: {Jh,Th,Ad}
I bet and the Button calls. I played the flop this way because I really didn’t know where the Button was at, and if he was weak he may have taken a free card.
Turn: {Jh,Th,Ad};{Jc}
I check, the Button bets, and I call. My reasons for this play were that since he called my Flop bet he must have something and it must either be great or mediocre since he didn't raise. If he does have a Jack I still have outs and I really don’t want to get raised here. My check also looks weak and if he has something like bare Aces he may just bet it.
River: {Jh,Th,Ad,Jc};{7h}
I bet. My thoughts here are that he may call with hand worse than mine, and he will have to have a very strong hand to raise. I also think that this board will make it very scary for him to bet a hand that doesn’t beat mine if I check. I would rather bet and fold if he raises, than check and fold if he bets.
Comments?
CV
I would have probably checked the river. You lose to a flush, 3 jacks, straight, ace jack, or ace ten. Check and if he bets you probably have to muck.You said "bet and fold if he raises". Why not check and call for the same money so you can at least see his hand?
I think that the reason to bet-fold instead of check-call is just as Chris said: "My thoughts here are that he may call with hand worse than mine" Assuming that the opponent would not bet out with those same worse hands, there is extra equity in these crying calls. Especially in low-limit, players make these calls more often than they'll bet out with a worse hand. Unless you have reason to think seeing his hand is worth that much equity, My guess is that check-call is wrong. Those older and wiser, I'd love comments.
-solublefish
I win if he has Ace Ten, think about it.
I don't think he can have AJ JT or AT because he would have raised me on the Flop. He probably would have raised with all those plus KQ pre-flop. I think he most likely has a one pair hand, but may have Trip Jacks, a Flush, or a Jack High Straight.
CV
Your bet on the river could be right. You could be in a situation where it is -EV if you check and call or if you bet and get called. You may lose less by betting and getting called. This is explained in TOP. I believe the key here is what hands will he call with that he would not bet that you beat.
NT
Checking the turn could give a free card to a flush draw. That could easily be what he called your flop bet with. I think betting the turn is a must. As a bonus, if you get raised you have alot more information about his hand.
David
I would always bet the flop and turn with two of a suit onboard.
You are using a "Rule of Thumb", and that's not a good idea in Poker.
CV
I don't think it's so easy that he has a Flush draw here. Remember that he limped in on the Button. It's not like there were 3 or 4 limpers and when I bet one happened to call. I would fear a Flush draw more then.
But really the biggest mistake I could make by checking 4th is giving a Free card to a player who would have folded if I bet, but who also needs a to make a gutshot or spike the Ten. I won't want to bet and get raised, right? If I give a free card to the flush draw it's not as bad because he would have called me anyway. Also, and this was the case here. If I check, a hand that would have folded if I bet may just try to bluff.
So weighing all the options on Forth st., I chose to check.
CV
CV
He doesn't HAVE to have a flush draw, just the possibility is usually enough to make me want to charge him. And, as you said, any kind of draw that can beat you, but would fold, gets a free card also. Just the fact that he limped on the button (not a very good play in general) suggests that he doesn't have much high card strength, which in turn suggests a suited hand of some sort of the JTs variety or worse.
I'm not so sure that betting and getting raised is that horrible either. It depends on the player. There are a number people I would feel comfortable mucking when they raised because they absolutely would not raise with less than a J, a made straight, or a flopped set that turned a boat. The board is quite frankly, scary, and alot of people simply won't bluff at that because it's far too likely that you have "enough to call" since you've shown nothing but strength. And if they do raise, you are drawing awfully thin and possibly dead.
I like your strategy alot better if you think this guy is a bit of a maniac. And then I would not only check and call the turn, I would check and call the river as well.
If I'm going to bet and muck to a raise, I'd rather do it on the turn, than the river. But feel free to try to convince me otherwise. :-)
David
One advantage of checking the turn is that it allows you to get to the river for one bet, with the opportunity to draw out on his possible trips.
Note also that this is an unknown player. So he doesn't fit the profile of one who you know would never raise the turn without the trips.
I think the river bet may well be better than a check, though it's a tricky decision. I think skp describes a similar decision in a recent post on the medium stakes forum.
I believe I would have to fold if I bet and got raised on the Turn. I may only be drawing for two outs, or at most 6 outs.
As it turns out he Folded to my bet on the end. So I did get an extra bet out of him by checking on the Turn.
CV
"5/10 Paradise Poker on-line hand Me in the BB with {Ah,Kd} All fold to the Button who calls. SB folds, I raise, Button calls. The Button is an unknown player to me so lets say he is typical."
Calling the button typical is probably not correct since he only called when first in on the button. WEAK is probably a better characterization.
"Flop: {Jh,Th,Ad} I bet and the Button calls. I played the flop this way because I really didn’t know where the Button was at, and if he was weak he may have taken a free card."
I agree that you should bet.
"Turn: {Jh,Th,Ad};{Jc} I check, the Button bets, and I call. My reasons for this play were that since he called my Flop bet he must have something and it must either be great or mediocre since he didn't raise. If he does have a Jack I still have outs and I really don’t want to get raised here. My check also looks weak and if he has something like bare Aces he may just bet it."
I agree that your check is okay. However, if he has bare aces he will almost always call if you bet, but may check behind you.
"River: {Jh,Th,Ad,Jc};{7h} I bet. My thoughts here are that he may call with hand worse than mine, and he will have to have a very strong hand to raise. I also think that this board will make it very scary for him to bet a hand that doesn’t beat mine if I check. I would rather bet and fold if he raises, than check and fold if he bets."
This sort of situation is discussed in Sklansky's Theory of Poker. If your opponent will call with more hands than he will bet, and if you check and he bets you will always call, it frequently is right to bet even if you lose the majority of the times that he calls. This is because you do a little better by betting. I agree that this looks like one of those situations and agree that a bet is correct. This is especially true if you know that if he raises you absolutely must be beat and you will now fold.
1. You got a lot of callers to your drawing hand. 2. You successfully got a free card for your draw 3. You missed your draw.
There is one thing you can fix. Your attitude. If you are vexed by this series of events, you're not gonna have fun playing poker.
If you are offered 50-1 on a coin flip, will you be vexed the flip came up wrong, or overjoyed that you can get these kind of odds, knowing eventually you will make a boat load of cash?
"Could I have done anything differently here?"
Yes, hit your straight on the river instead of missing. Joking aside, everything here was perfect except you just missed. This is how it goes; if you hit every draw, it wouldn't really be called gambling, would it?
What do *you* think you could have done differently? (Rhetorical question). I'm assuming your major quandary is whether you should have bet the turn; your reasoning for the check is solid -- you can't steal a pot from that many players in that type of game(and you are the one who needs the free card). The draw didn't come. Shuffle and deal the next one.
After looking at my post again, and reading the responses, I feel I need to clarify this slightly.
Let's change my original post a little. Let's say that only 2 or 3 people stayed in for the flop raise and the draw still missed. Would anyone have fired again on the turn or the river? THOSE situations are the ones that vex me a bit. I apologize for not being more clear.....
Thank you again, Tim
Good clarification and good question.
As is often the case, my answer is "It depends"
If I think there is a good chance that the players I am up against will fold, I will bet. If not, I check and hope my draw hits. The vast majority of time, although I will mix it up every so often.
There do exist some 3/6 players who will let go of their gutshot or small pair on the turn. It is rarely the case that I am up against 2 or 3 of them at one time.
Against 1 or 2 oppenets i might bet the turn and river.
With 3 or more i will take the free card because there is almost know chance that i will win right there.
Loose passive $2/4 game. I'm on the button. Three limpers to me and I limp with pocket eights, sb calls, BB raises, all call.
Flop is 2,7,J rainbow, BB bets, 3 callers to me
Do I take one off?
If not, how many pre-flop limpers/callers do I need to make this correct?
If so, what if the flop was 3,9,Q 2 suited?
With 3 limpers there's no way I take one off. You probably need to hit to win and both of the scenarios you gave an 8 on the turn could bring a str8.
Now if the flop was J-6-2 rainbow and it's folded around to you, you should probably raise the BB to try and put him on a hand.If he re-raises the pot is offering a good enough price to take one off and try to spike an 8.
Based on the betting action, it is almost a certainity someone has a top pair of Jacks which means you are playing two outs. A two outer is a 23.5:1 shot. You need something like over 20 small bets in the pot to make taking one off correct here. This assumes you will collect some double sized bets on the turn and river and that you win the hand after making your set.
I often find myself in the same sitation you were in on a passive table.
Your semi-bluff on the flop was fine, and it got you your free card and you picked up the flush draw. I would bet on the turn here ONLY if I thought I had a good chance of picking up the pot right there. In the 3/6 games I was in, that was RARELY the case, and I doubt it was the case here. No reason to bet that I can see. Someone will call out of curiousity.
You missed on the river, so fold. Good job in playing your draw as cheaply as you could.
Hi, Let's say you have the choice between a 3-6 loose-passive game with a 10% rake up to 4$, and a 5-10 slightly tougher game with a rake of 10% up 5$.
Wich one would you say is more easily beaten. There is more fishes in the 3-6 so it might seems easier, but in the 5-10 the players may be a bit more predictable since they won't play total garbage. What's more, the 5-10 players may notice some of your fancy plays and start fearing you, while in the 3-6, they won't ever notice that you play better hands than them.
I know game selection is a very important part of making a profit in poker, so what's your mental process for choosing a game? How does the rake in this situation would influence your choice?
thanks
David Saintonge
I'd stand up in the middle of one of the poker tables with a sign (like Sally Fields) that said "Lower the Rake" and never play in either game.
Seriously, though, you might be better off in the $3-$6 game if the $5 game is populated by more aggressive players. This is due to the fact that a large percentage of the hands will be played with fewer players, and each pot you win will contain proportionally more of your money. Loose-passive players should dilute the effect of that ridiculous rake a little more.
? This is the standard rake at every casino I play at; 5% to a max of $5
Do you have the 20th century edition of HPFAP? It has quite a bit of information on Short Handed games. The additional ~100 pages they added makes it worth buying.
Ed,
I have the second edition of HE for Advanced Players. Thought this was the latest edition. I will be going to the Gamblers BS shortly for some browsing so will look this up.
Reason I asked this question is, I was playing in a short handed game last week (only my 6th casino session) and playing pre flop as per the book, my chips slowly got dwindled down until it evaporated with two second best hands. This was a rack of $100 in a 4-8 game, over a 4 hour period. I also noticed some unbelievable two card winning hands. Made me think that I was playing it wrong, and that there must be more to the short handed game.
Anyway, thanks for the answer.
Papio
Here's a solution to your problem that will save you money:....Don't play in short handed games and here's why:
The blinds move around too fast and bleed you.
Moreover, you end up playing hands that "your supposed to play" because it's shorthanded although you wouldn't touch them in a regular game. Then, you get those beat, and then your brain is spinning with bile on what you should play to which you tighten up which then puts you in a position where your getting bled by the blinds. It's a viscous circle, and the moral to the story is:
Fuck your opponents; it's not your job to keep the game going. Your not a hired entertainer. And if you just have to lose your spot on the list, so be it. It's worth it. Can you tell a short-handed game pissed me off tonight even though I've sworn I'd avoid playing in them anymore because it's always the same damn story. Enough said.
JPN
I stayed later at the 'office' than my roomie, but he was still up when I got home, so we spend a few minutes going over a few hands. Good way to unwind and we can compare notes on certain players, discuss strategy, etc.
My buddie is holding AJo in the cutoff. All folded to him, he of course raises. Button folds, and both blinds call.
SB is lady visiting town from Vancouver over the holidays. Not much of a read on her. BB is a new convert to HE from the Stud table. Usually very passive, timid player, but both of us have noticed that he will occasionally bet a come hand quite strongly. But as a rule, if he bets, he's got something.
Flop comes down 9d-7c-2d. Checked to my friend, he bets. His feeling is that if the blinds missed, he could win right now. They both call. Yuck.
Turn is an offsuit Jack. SB checks, and now the BB bets. Now the kneejerk reaction might be to raise here, but my friend's read on the BB is that this guy is very unlikely to bet out here on just a Jack. He might have the str8, in which case he's drawing dead, or more likely, he has picked up 2 pair. In any case, I agreed with him that he's either way ahead here, or way behind. But there is the question of the SB also still in the hand. Is it correct to raise anyway on the theory that while you may not have the BB beat, you have to try to drive out the SB to possibly increase your chances of winning the pot? Do you call, and call the river if nothing changes? Right or wrong, my friend just calls. Discussion welcome.
River is the 7d. Now the SB bets. BB calls, and my buddy mucks, reading the SB for either the flush, or trips, and when the BB calls, it is an easy fold. SB turns over King-high diamonds, as advertised. Now get this. The timid Stud convert turns over 9-7!!!
Now obviously, the BB butchered this hand. But what is "Perfect Play" here? He calls a late position out of the BB with 9-7o, getting 5:1 for his $3. Agree with the call? Fold?
Now BB flops 2-pair with a flush draw on board. Cutoff bets and SB calls. Smooth-call and try for a turn check-raise, or check-raise right now? Who would bet out that flop? When the overcard hits the turn, would you bet out, or check-raise?
Now on the river, I don't think there can be any disagreement that the BB should raise. Who knows, he might even get a nut, or 2nd nut flush, to reraise?
Comments welcome.
Taking your questions in order:
1) I probably would not raise on the turn if I had the AJ given what I know about the bettor. A weak-tight player betting into me would probably signify a lot of strength and raising would not make me feel comfortable I had the best hand even if he didn't raise back. True, you may be able to drive out the SB, but you wouldn't know where you stood with the original bettor.
2) In the BB, I am much more liberal in calling with marginal hands. I usually don't look at the pot odds as much as who did the raising. I am less apt to call a weaker player who raises, just because he/she is less likely to be stealing, than a typical player who I can usually put on a hand. The stud convert should have folded for the same reasons he called ... he plays weak-tight. If you cannot put your opponents on a hand or will not be able to outplay that opponent, unless you flop the nuts, then you are better off folding (in a short-handed situation).
3) After flopping top two pairs, I probably would have check-raised either the flop or turn. This would be based on how aggressive the raiser is and how likely he would bet the turn even if he catches nothing. Also, I going for the check-raise would also depend on what kind of player the SB is and what kind of hand I put him on. But definitely I would check-raise as opposed to leading out, mainly with that kind of flop against a typical opponent, they will almost always bet the flop with 2 overcards. By leading out your opponent may simply fold not wanting to chase a fairly small pot. In short-handed situations, I would want to trap the opponent for as many bets as I could.
4) I agree with you 100%.
The way your opponent plays you, it is the right play. He ought to consider folding to your raise on the flop unless he's on a good draw (draws get bad odds heads-up). I guess he wasn't as the 8 would then give him at least a pair on his straight draw and I presume the flop was rainbow.
When he decides to call you, at least he ought to put some pressure on you when the river Q fall and any potential straight draw you may have raised on (possibly to get a free river card) have probably missed. Then you'll be in a bit of a query. Call a $8 bet in a relatively small pot with your weak hand?
They way your opponents plays you here gives you cause to repeat the scenario again in similar situations.
Lars
Pre- flop I don't like your call with K-2. I don't think it's terrible but I would have wanted a couple more players in to make this call.
On the flop you made a nice play. Find out where you are in the hand. When he doesn't re-raise it screams A-K/A-Q.
On the turn, even though you didn't get any help, you should bet out when a rag falls. He is likely to be drawing to beat you and may muck his 2 over cards here.
Good play after the flop, terrible play before the flop. Where did you ever get the idea that K2 is a playable hand?
3-6 passive game. First time at live holdem. I'm usually a stud player. I have Qs8c. I'm 1 off the button. 6 call. I call (questionable but 6-1 odds). 9 way on the flop.
Flop: As Ks 8c.
6 players call. I call (14-1 odds, 2 outs for the 8, plus runner-runner straigh & flash, and 3 semi-outs for the Q).
turn: 8d
4 players call. I call.
river: rag.
All call.
I bring it down with trip 8s.
"Experts" across the table grumble as I stack the chips. I just limp-smile-shrug. I didn't see the point in telling them: if they give me the odds, I will take them.
Just a point of view from a fish.
you usually want to raise the turn in low limit when you make trips on the turn. i mean, why play trash like that unless youre gonna go for the throat when you have what is likely the winning hand.
I gather your post is mislabled since your hand was Queen-Eight offsuit not Queen-Nine offsuit. Queen-Eight offsuit is not a hand and you should never pay a full bet to take a flop with this garbage regardless of how many players limp in. On the flop, your call is fine given the pot odds. On the turn, a raise is mandatory with your trip Eights. The pot is large, the opponents are many, and your hand is probably good. Pull the trigger now while you still have the gun. At the river when a blank comes, again you should raise since your hand is probably best.
Thanks for the comments. In retrospect, I should have raised the turn and river. My starting hand was crap and it was a speculative call.
But I think it illustrates what can happen when you let everybody in for one bet. A preflop raise or a raise on the flop and its an obvious fold for me.
I sit down and after some connection problems I get the following hand, but I have zero read on the players (except for BP).
I am in the small blind, Middle Maniac open-raises, Better Player calls, I call with KsJc, BB calls.
I assume calling out of the SB with KJo was probably a mistake.
Flop is 3s 2d Kd
I check, BB checks, MM bets out, BP folds, I check-raise, BB folds. (Cool, I've isolated and charged him 2 bets if he's on a draw)
Turn is a 5c
I bet out, Maniac raises me????, I just call fearing AK, AA, A4.
River is a 4d (of course)
So I check and fold to his bet like a weenie. I did not realize this guy was a larcenous maniac until later on.
Comments...?
Pre-flop when a player open raises from middle position he does not require a premium hand especially a maniac.The better player realizes this so his cold-call does not signify a great hand either. In fact with a premium hand the better player would have 3 bet to isolate the maniac. Bottom line is that your pre-flop call with King-Jack offsuit being partially in from the small blind is okay.
You should lead at this flop with top pair/decent kicker in a raised pot like this with a two flush on board. The last thing you want to see is for this flop to get checked around. Your subsequent raise is fine since it is the maniac who is betting. Your turn bet is good as well as your call of his raise for the reasons you state. Maniacs get good hands like the rest of us. But at the river, a call is automatic in a heads-up situation like this against a maniac. Folding at the river was awful.
I had no idea this guy was a maniac until after a couple more orbits.
So with a straight and flush possible, and me with only top pair, being raised on the turn usually means something.
After I saw the guy pull this same move 3 or 4 more times in the next couple orbits I realized I had made a horrible laydown.
If you were going to fold, do so on the turn when raised. There are VERY few, IF ANY situations where you are going to bet the turn, get raised, then fold top pair! On the river there were 10 BB in the pot, so you needed less than a 10% chance of having the winner in order to make calling correct. Remember, when in doubt, if it's early in the hand, fold, but on the river CALL. You must learn to pay off on the river much more often, because you will find that you will occasionally win a big pot that more than makes up for the times you paid off. you had an automatic payoff here, never fold in this situation, especially against a maniac.
Against a maniac I agree that calling the river would be correct.
Against a good player though, S&M specifically address trying to save bets on the river.
With a poss. flush and straight, AND a turn raise, I gotta think folding isnt that bad against a good player, but it should be done on the turn.
If you're EV is only 1BB/hr and you are calling 1 time per hour when you shouldn't, you are now just breaking even.
dr brier said: "Your turn bet is good as well as your call of his raise for the reasons you state."
wrong! im very very familiar with the 2-4 at paradise and if someone check raises you on the turn you are likely in trouble, maniac tendencies or not. your best bet with this hand is to check call on the turn and the river. there's a chance he has QQ or TT or something much worse even but there's also a (better) chance he's got you beat with a set, two pair of garbage or some sort of draw or something. avoid putting yourself in positions to get check raised with only top pair in these games. the weaker players dont know the concept of a free card. if they raise with marginal hands preflop they are likely to always bet your checks in order to get you to fold. do not get involved in such a guessing game, check-call (rope a dope they call it) with the maniacs on the expensive streets unless you are absolutely certain you have them beat--then you can check raise.
your fold on the river was terrible given the way you played the rest of the hand, you may as well make a crying call at that point..
brier, youre a genius, but dont comment on the online games as if they were regular low limits, theyre a completely different animal.
poker is poker and maniacs are maniacs. online it may be more common to find maniac games, extremely loose games, moronic players, etc... but against a maniac I would bet here, call if raised, then call the river every single time online or not. maniacs do not get a cheap opportunity to beat me when I have top pair decent kicker, and I call them down if they keep raising. I called one maniac down when I had AJ and the flop was J 7 6 with two clubs. He Capped it on the flop then check-raised me on the turn (I give no free cards despite someone else having capped). He had QJ and I won a huge pot. Maniacs are maniacs and good games are good games.
This situation took place in $2-4 Hold'em game a few days ago.
I am BB with 8h-9h, get raised by a tight aggressive player and the rest fold. I call. Flop goes K-8-low rainbow. He bets, I call. I know I'm probably ahead on my pair, but I also presume he'll bet out all way on anything trying to bluff his way to the pot as long as I don't signalise strenght by raising.
Turn card is another K. My feelings that he's betting on nothing are further strenghtened. He bets out, I call.
River is a blank, BB bets out again, I ...raise! Now in hindsight, raising with this marginal hand, the only thing I can get from this raise I actually a desperation re-raise from the bluffer. If he just calls, I am most probably beat. Well, BB takes a little time, then reraises, I fold instantly.
Comments?
I read him right correctly all along, but in trying to bluff his way to the pot with a reraise in a huge pot like this, having that nerve, I couldn't do anything but realize that I'd had him wrong the whole way.
vegas
Your description is a little confusing, first you say you are BB, then you talk about BB betting and you raising him. I will assume you are in the big blind and a tight aggressive player raised.
I would not have played that hand the way you did. Against a tight aggressive player, I would either raise on the flop or fold. - Folding being a pretty good option when you flop second pair against a tight player with no straight draw and a backdoor flush draw that may not be any good.
I would not wait until the river to raise in the situation you describe. If I have a small pair against suspected overcards, I like to raise on the flop. If I have the best hand, I want more money in the pot, and if I don't have the best hand, I want my opponent to think I have a better hand than I do.
Raising on the flop may have won you the pot in this situation.
While the second king hitting the turn makes it likely that your opponent doesn't have one, he also should know that you don't have one either - especially because you did not raise on the flop.
I think that would make it correct for him to raise you on the river if he holds 99-QQ. If you raise on the flop, then bet the turn, he has to seriously think about letting go of his hand right there.
You call the flop, he's got very good reason to put you on an 8.
you get raised by a "tight aggressive" player and you make a marginal call in the BB with 98s. I would probably fold but it is most likely not a huge mistake if you defended your blind. however, since he is "tight aggressive", he probably has a decent hand so defending here becomes a worse play.
Then the flop comes King high. you check-call. if you were going to make a move on this pot anywhere, I would have check-raised the flop and done it for cheap, then fold if he three bets. raising the river was a bad idea. make it a maniac and you played fine, but against this player you were playing dumb.
dave in cali
You should have check-raised on the turn to don't give him a free river , because if he has a hand like AJ , or 2 different big cards but no king and no pair , the river could give him a pair better than your . if he calls you , he maybe has AA , QQ , JJ , 10-10 , or K with a small kikcer , if he reraise you , it's a ovbious fold . If he calls , you check the river whatever is the river , except an 8 you bet . What you have done on the river was terrible , to raise him , if he doensn't have a king , and nothing else but ace high , he won't call your check raise .if he has a big pair , he will call .
...reraise me on nothing!
That's the whole point here. I sensed he wasn't playing anything particularly strong, so I didn't want him to fold either, rightly predicting he would go on betting the next rounds too, if I only called.
The second K increases the possibilities I have the best hand.
The interesting thing here, I my raise on the river where actually the only thing which would pay me off is a bluff-reraise, it came and it was a bluff alright, but then I had folded!
Lars
That's my whole point also. Raising on the flop would probably have won you the pot.
With apologies for former President Bush (George Sr.)
Top pair . . . gooood
Middle pair . . . baaaad
Bottom pair . . . nagonadoit.
To continue with middle or bottom pair, need other outs and decent odds.
you will win money with those hands. its the hands that dont do as well multiway like kj and kq that gets people in trouble in loose games.
You need to play at loose passive tables or your swings will be enormous.
You should not be playing 26 hour sessions. It is hard to play your best game over this long a period of time.I recommend 6-8 hour session lengths. In low limit games, especially $3-$6, you will find that you will have more players in the pot on virtually every street from what it would be in a higher limit game so it will be harder to win a pot. However, when you do win, your wins will be large, sometimes 100 small bets or more. The key is to play good starting hands and avoid playing in raised pots with suited connectors and small to medium pocket pairs if possible unless you are getting good multi-handed action like 4 or more opponents. Forget about slow playing, check-raising, or doing anything fancy in these little games because your opponents are basically unaware anyway. When I played $3-$6 and $4-$8 I found I could average better than 1 big bet per hour in these games. As I moved up, I found it increasingly difficult to average 1 big bet per hour beyond $10-$20.I think it would be a mistake to move up to a bigger game like $5-$10 until you have played a few hundred hours of $3-$6 and have a solid winning record.
The problem is that they do not respect your raise ?
I would like to have your problem ; These are the tables where you can make easy money .Zee is right , don't play KJ , As-9 , they will make a very good 2nd best hand . But Ace anything suited could be play from any position if there are 7 or 8 peoples on every flop . But take care A2 suited is no good if you catch just a pair of ace on the flop and nothing else .You have lose a pot three times with big pair , in the long run they will pay you ; don't worry about that .
,
"You have lose a pot three times with big pair , in the long run they will pay you ; don't worry about that ."
True, although in a wild game with 5-6 players or more for the flop almost every hand, you must sometimes be prepared to let AA go before the showdown, if not you will lose quite a bit every time you get AA and it don't hold up (it'll be many times with 5-6 players for the flop!).
A thing I've had on my mind lately, is that I discover that I'm frequently getting bad situation with high sets relative to what they really should become (monster situations). Because it's fairly unlikely that someone else is playing similar cards (like AK vs KK on a K-x-x flop). Instead they either fold because they are afraid the K gave you the mere pair which would be enough to beat them, or they play on with hands where they actually have a few outs (straight possibilities or runner-runner flush. Still a major dog to me, but a far smaller one than playing for instance, AK vs KK on such a flop as mentioned).
The really good set-situations comes when flopping a low set on a flop containing an A or a K or preferably both (unless the betting preflop has been very strong and there's severe reason to fear AA or KK).
Lars
It's sometimes best in super-loose, no-respect-for-raises type, 3-6 games to treat those big pairs with a little less of your own respect: don't get tied to them, be willing to dump them, with no regrets, on the turn or prior to a river call. Yeah, you'll make money with them "in the long run", but keep your expectations for them at a reasonably low level in this too-loose game situation.
.
Playing 5/10 and raise UTG with AA. one middle call and the BB calls with 10-6 off and makes a sraight on the turn. I say good hand and a little while later I get my money back and more when I make a full house with 44 and I get no respect. I will take the money over the respect any day, just keep playing good cards and good position. Good luck and Happy New Year.
$5/$10 Texas Hold’em on-line hand. 12/24/00
I’m one off the button and have: {Jd,8d} The table has been Passive with not a lot of pre-flop raising for the last half hour. That is my excuse for playing such a weak starting hand without good odds to draw.
The man under the gun calls, middle position player calls, I call, the Button calls, SB completes his bet and the BB calls.
Flop: {9d,Kd,9h}
Everyone checks to me, I check, and the Button Bets. Everyone folds to me and I call. I didn’t come out betting since there are so many players in the hand and I’m in a late position. It is also typical to get check-raised if someone does have Trip-nines.
Turn: {9d,Kd,9h};{7c}
I Bet. The Button could have a good hand or could have been trying to pick up the Pot on the Flop. If I check now and don’t improve on the River I will have to fold if he bets, and I probably won’t win even if he checks the River. Since I have as many as 12 outs I think betting is the best play. A check-raise may be a good play against a person who may fold a pair of Kings but I don’t think that will happen. If he was trying to pick up the Pot with a weak hand he might not bet for fear that I have Trip-Nines.
Comments?
CV
Whether or not you made the correct play here is really very situational and largely immaterial; the key is the thought process driving your action.
BTW, good thinking...
I like your thinking here. The semi-bluff is especially effective since you can represent trip Nines here and you have a lot of outs if you get called. I would go for a check-raise on the turn against one opponent who viewed me as a rock AND who is capable of laying down a decent hand here. I would bet as you did against a decent player who is not aggressive but capable of folding. Against this guy I might have to follow this up with a river bet if a blank comes since I will have no hand to showdown. However, against a weak player who is unaware, I think just check-calling is best.
J8 is some piece of cheese IMO, I´d have discarded, but make it either A8s or JTs and I´d play (ok, perhaps even J9s would do).
Postflop: your play seems pretty ok, if your bet on turn makes sense depends on your opponent, but why not.
I think he means your session wins, not individual pots.
Small Stakes Hold'em
December 2000 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo