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Very well said and without doubt the very heart of the matter.
Poker in the U.K is beginning to take off at a rapid rate and,as previously mentioned,in hand banter is not allowed.
I think endless streams of verbal would affect the 'new' poker players here,who are already intimidated enough just getting through the front door of a casino.
Phil Hellmuth(probably the American in him)was the most talkative player,in a groundbreaking series of poker screened on television in the U.K,to promote the game.Although his constant banter was neither negative nor derogatory,and made for entertaining television,i can not see how it makes this great poker stalwart a greater player.
I believe it would demand more menace making your reads on others,via a non verbal format.My opinion of Hellmuth was definitely dented or maybe i am just reading the situation incorrectly!
Yeah, the Hellmuth T.V. final match I saw repeated last night in UK, he was pretty much being drawn into the verbal fray by opponents, in which case you have to give a little back just to show them you know that game too and that anyone can do it. Hellmuth didn't need to speak (or casually mention, as he did, his WSOP wins) to rub people up the wrong way.
Still, table-talk of a calculated (though not overtly deceptive) kind can, of course, be key to getting a good read on a player. Last night, one player all in, Hellmuth pondering call, he smiled and said something like: "I'm thinking of calling you with (blah)" and then sat like a lizard looking for a tell. Poker is a game about partial information, so its up to you if you want to trade (honest) information in the hope of getting something helpful back. Lying outright goes against table etiquette because its vulgar, easy and in the long run dumb. It can be bad practise to get too involved in verbals, since if other player is also good at it you end up going on tilt, as was ultimately the case with Hellmuth's talky-talk opponent.
T8s is not a great hand to call in this situation. If the person who raised raises everytime in this situation, it may be alright to defend.
If I had called I would have bet the flop and called, called the turn, and called the river if I didn't know the opponent. However, if I really didn't know the opponent I would not have called preflop.
Derrick
I wouldnt even defend if he raised every time if the hand is going to be heads up. Where is the implied odds and you are out of position....Fold it every time heads up.
12 handed a bit agressive game with a lot of horrible players and a few decent opponents. In average 5 players see the flop
I get dealt 88 UTG and after foldin about 45 hands in a row i decide to simply limp (1st mistake?)
The best player of the table (BPOT) raise in middle position and is immediately reraise by 1 of my buddy (BUD)a decent player who is able to reraise here only with AA KK or QQ normally. A callin station defend his big blind and its up to me... DO i put $20 more in the pot fearin a reraise... Since theres already $100 in the pot, i called.(i would have probably folded without the callin station) as did BPOT
4 handed 120 in the pot.
Flop Q 8 5 rainbow
BB check and i check too BPOT bet BUD raise BB call 10 all-in i just call to not reveal the strenght of my hand yet... (but maybe im against pocket queens..)and Bpot also call.
The turn is a blank
I check BPOT also check BUD bet i raise BPOT fold and Bud called the turn and the river with pocket rockets and ive won a good pot.
My question here is that if i knew BUD had AA KK or QQ, should ive waited for the river to pop him since i know he will always bet the river with any of these 3 hands he can hold in a pot like this... Maybe this way i would have kept BPOT and his 99% sure AQ with us...
Just wondering!!
Keep playin aces!
Charlie
I believe that the play of the hand was incorrect given your assumption that your BUD would ONLY reraise with AA, KK, or QQ. If this is true, you need to fold.
Once you see the flop I would certainly have bet out expecting a raise and planning to reraise. You need to play your sets as fast as possible. Middle set often will get a raise by all of those with top pair. Further, none of the top pairs will fold. You have a money maker here and it needs to have all the action put in possible. This has the added benefit of knocking out people who would pick up draws on the turn. People just love to "take the cheap one off"
Finally, if you play your hands slowly like this, I bet you get beat on the river pretty regularly by runner runner....miracle draws. You do so because you let them draw cheap. Better to win a smaller pot, if you even have to sacrifice that, than to lose a big pot to a miracle draw. Lock the draws out whenever possible.
I was Bud in that hand . If I re-raise BPOT I could have AK , not absolutlly a big pair , especially because both blinds of that are loose. But it's not important . There are my tought when yopu check-raise me . The flop wasn't rainbow , there was 2 diamonds on the flop ( you could check the video of the game ) ;) . That is why I suspect you to don't have a set . And if you have a set , you would have raise QQ , and fold 55 . No chance for a set on the turn , you wouldn't have call 20 for a 1:23 . MAybe 88 . Maybe a tricky play to steal the pot with the 2nd best hand (AQ , KQ , QxJx ) and find yourself with the BB .And very small chances that you were dealt AA . You went for a limp-reraise , but realise that it was more valuable to slowplay because because there was only descent player still in hand (with money) . At this point there was 250 in the pot . I have fallen in love with my aces one more time.
Here is the hand, in the same 5-10 game at the Taj that I just described. I'm on the button with J-10, both diamonds. 5 callers to me, I call, both blinds come, 8 players in, $40 pot. The flop comes J-8-4, one diamond. Everyone checks to late position player who bets, I raise to $10. Everyone folds, he calls. Turn is a brick diamond. He checks, I bet $10 with my top pair, good draw. River misses, he checks, I bet again (mistake?). He calls and shows A-J off to take it down. Did I play this too hard? He never raised during the hand so I didn't put him on a better jack. -Other thoughts: There is MUCH more checkraising in this game then 3-6, and I hardly make this play. I know it is a must if you want to play at this or higher limits, but I have trouble knowing when to pull it off. For example, on one hand I limped in EP with pocket 9's, and it was raised late which i called. 4 players, flop comes low rags. Do I checkraise? Or bet out? What if a high card drops on the turn? Say I am in late position with this hand, Do i raise a bet or wait and see the turn? I frequently raise, only to see a Jack or queen fall and be forced to pay off. Any comments appreciated.
I have a very different outlook on this than the others. First, you SHOULD have raised preflop. You have a hand that plays well against a large number of callers and you have the button. Then I would have raised on the flop, though you might not have needed to raise as the AJ may well have just called. I would have bet the turn because of the diamond. If the diamond had not hit I would take the free card. Finally, I would have checked on the river.
You never know how things would have actually played out. Most likely you would still have lost...nonetheless, I would ALWAYS raise with JTs with many callers and the button.
IowaMatt:
A preflop raise is ok, but I don't believe a raise should be standard operating procedure in the game Jeff describes. People will continue with their hands no matter what in this game. They will pay you off no matter what, and you will need a hand to win.
After being fortunate enough to meet so many of the great posters at this forum, I think it is time to de-lurk and post/comment on some hands.
Friday night, 6-12 Mirage, game is loose passive, with all players being reasonable.
4 limpers, including the button, sb folds, I check in the BB with 35o
Flop comes Q-8-3 rainbow. I check, all players check.
Turn comes 4. I check, all check to button who bets. I call, rest fold.
River comes 4. I check, button bets, I call.
Results to follow.
My 35o takes down the pot. Button gets hot that I would call the turn and river bet with a pair of threes. I laugh to myself.
The other fella should not get mad at the way you played the hand. If you want to play a hand really poorly, even if you win, he should be pleased.
since the flop was checked and you have one pair, you can take a shot and bet the turn. However, your check-call is another alternative, although you lose two bets if beaten.
Just thought I'd share this with everyone since there had been a previous discussion on lying to win a pot. To make a long story short, I was in a hand and the pot was a monster (it had been capped before and after the flop with many callers.) On the river it was heads up with me and this other guy who was first to act. He fired, looked right at me and said "muck it". I had two pair (not top two) and immediately knew he was full of sh*t. I raised, he called, and I showed my two pair. He threw his into the muck. I couldnt help but chuckle as I was stacking my chips and thinking of the discussion that was held here earlier on lying to win a pot. Technically he didnt lie, but it was obvious he was trying to angle shoot to win the pot. I have been around long enough to spot rim shot plays like this and know when someone is full of it. I did laugh though and think of this forum and my fellow 2 + 2 posters. just thought I'd share this with you...--Big Al--
There is a very famous Big Al in poker, but he wouldnt be playing low limit games...so I assume you are not him. If you sign with Big Al, you will get people asking if you are him from time to time.
It is I. I read all the forums and since there had been a previous discussion on lying to win a pot in this section, I decided to post it here.--Big Al--
What percentage chance do you estimate that you
a) may be beaten already and
b) the button has outs to beat you on the river?
Those questions are the key to this play. You are basically shooting in the dark with the check-call approach. Your intuition is good and I agree with it. But it is not foolproof and there is a nearly 100% chance that the button has overcards to your measely pair. If your plan is to have him do the betting for you, you are gonna be sorry when he bets his bigger pair on the end and you pay him off. Give him a chance to fold now. You have a very very vulnerable hand.
IMO, save this approach for time when you are very strong and you suspect your opponent has a good, but worse holding. Then checkraise 'em on the river!
KJS
KJS,
I was going to write a long explanation; however, a response by DS to the 20-40 correct checkraise? should be sufficient.
I would have done as you did. If I know the raising standards of UTG I may have 3 bet pre flop. Not much you can do here.
Derrick
How wrong would it be here to bet the turn and fold to a raise? You have top pair, top kicker and flush draws are down to one card. I'm pretty new to hold 'em and have trouble with coordinated boards.
Just reread Theory of poker on blind structure.
If my understanding is correct, you actually want to tighten up with smaller blinds.
How's the action in this game? I was watching it the other day, waiting for the morning tourney to start. I was tempted to sit, but had to run over the the Luxor for their noon tourney? It's too late now as I'm no longer in LV, but just wondering if I missed anything.
I apologize for the misprint. I thought that the first to act in each round is UTG.
UTG is the player to the left of the BB.
I was at the Taj Mahal in AC this past weekend and had the same hand with the same result happen to me. I don't intend to sound whiny, I am trying to determine if I could have gotten out of this without losing as many chips.
Both times I have pocket aces, and both times the flop comes down X-4-4. I raised before the flop (I think I was in middle position or late position) and both times a player (the same player) bet into me on the flop. There were several paired flops during the session, and sometimes players were throwing out bets representing trips when they didn't have them. What I ended up doing was calling the flop bet, turn bet, and river bet each time. Of course, both times the player had a 4 to beat me.
In retrospect, I think both times I should have raised his flop bet to gain information. If he re-raised, I could have folded right there, or perhaps folded on the turn if he bet into me again. If he called my flop raise and bet into me on the turn, again I could fold with a clear conscience. Is my hindsight 20/20? I know how I handled this was not correct. Some of the players said that they never raise with aces because you can never win with them at that limit. That is a bunch of crap, right? My feeling is that I should be raising with aces most of the time, like 90 percent or more.
You are correct, you should have raised on the flop. If you get reraised, then call and hope to catch your ace on the turn. If you dont and he bets into you again (and you dont think he is a tricky player, which he isnt if he is play 2/4) then fold.
Aces are wonderful but we all remember them more clearly when we lose with them. It happens. We dont like it....but dont be discouraged.
"There were several paired flops during the session, and sometimes players were throwing out bets representing trips when they didn't have them." Raise the flop then. Simple. Get called, bet turn. Get 3 bet, smooth and toss unless the turn is a miracle card. You made a table observation, and did nothing about it.
I disagree with the other responses. This is a perfect time to rope-a-dope, if you think that people are bluffing too much when the board pairs, especially when people don't know when they're not going to be able to push someone off a hand.
1. You're either far ahead or far behind. That means that you don't need to force him off his hand if he's bluffing, as he's bluffing with virtually no outs. Giving cheap cards doesn't hurt you.
2. By being aggressive, you stand to lose the most when behind and gain the least when ahead. If he is indeed bluffing, then you may get him to dump his hand. But, if you are behind, then you are going to lose more by raising.
3. You have position on your opponent. If he decides to give up his bluff, you have the opportunity to bet.
The only thing you gain by raising is information. If he plays back at you, and he's not a maniac or a tricky player, and if you're capable of folding, then you can save 1.5 big bets.
While this does have its merits, I don't like it as much because my opponent has to feel confident that I don't have a four, seeing as how I raised preflop. He also knows that I can't be as confident that he doesn't have a four. It's so easy for him to represent a hand here. At lower limits, I see this a lot; people love to make moves for the pot. They don't realize that with a board like this, they are likely to get called. In other words, this is the sort of flop that LL players get tricky on.
There's also a subtle point that middle pairs are overpairs to this flop. Middle pairs are likely to give you the same kind of action as a four would. You may end up throwing away your aces against a middle pair.
If you were heads-up it's not necessary to raise the flop. You ae either way ahead or way behind so check and call is fine (although when I use this tactic I'll usually raise the river). There is no way I lay down this hand unless I know the player very well. This is a great flop for aces.
Ignore the players who say not to raise with aces. It's called selective memory: they remember every time they lose with a good hand and win with a garbage hand. Last night I had to sit beside a player whining for hours how his good hands never won. This after he turned over AQs (hit an ace on the river), pocket jacks, and what I think was AA within the first hour.
Here is a hand I played meekly on the river. I think I am often not aggressive enough is spots like this.
Game is loose passive
UTG limps in (A very good player who plays very good starting cards. I know him well and he knows me)
I limp in at number 3 with 6,6.
Unfortunately, only the BB stays and we take the flop 3 handed.
Flop comes 6,2,8 rainbow. UTG bets, I call, BB folds. Turn is a 4. UTG bets, I raise and UTG calls.
River is a 5 (leaving a 7 for the straight). UTG checks, I bet, and UTG check-raises.
I think for a moment and the only hand I am afraid of is 7,7 ( or 7,8 suited which is unlikely for him but I guess possible).
His play so far doesn't smell of 7,7 but I just call anyway. He turns over 5,5 for a set on the end and I take it down with 6,6,6.
Seeing the 5,5 suprised me given his play. He might have put me on overcards and a semi-bluff given his play (although he should have reraised the turn).
Given his play, he realistically had 10,10 J,J or Q,Q. since he knows me, I think he would call me down with a reraise if he had any of these hands.
Is a reraise correct here?
here it goes....
Your first problem, is check/calling on the flop...you would have probably driven out all the players if you check/raised...allowing the player not to catch such an easy Straight. Second, your hand becomes very weak when the river comes down. Although your hand is still strong in tight games, with loose players, anyone can hold a 7 for the hell of it.
I believe that calling the check/raise was the correct play, for he could've easily held a 7.
still, you definetly should've driven him out on the flop with your set. If you truly believe that hes a guy that would never hold 7's.....then why was he holding 5's? Doesn't make sense to me....Maybe he was just playing the cards for the hell of it?
A re-raise could easily be troublesome for you, but to play it safe...just call the check/raise.\
Shaftman
I would not reraise the river with 4 to a straight on board. I would be happy that I won.
Derrick
Your play was way too passive early on. You need to raise on the flop. You want to push out the gut shot straight draws as quickly as possible. Also, at lower limits players tend to call too often so you want to give the opportunity to make the mistake of call two bets cold.
Betting the turn is correct.
On the river there is no way you can correctly reraise the check raise. With a one card straight you must play cautiously. I am not even certain I would have bet the river...and I play very aggressively. I guess I would have bet it because it was checked to me. Still a somewhat dangerous move.
All too often I see players trying to wait till the turn to put a raise in . By then all the draws have so many outs that they wont get out. You need to play a set very fast to make it stand up...especially when the board is coordinated at all.
I am glad that your hand stood up.
You need to remember that I knew this player extremely well and could usually put him on his cards.
The way he played there is no way I can logically put him on a seven. The fact that he called my turn raise with 5,5 is a complete suprise. The only thing I can think of is that the thinking went several levels deep and he knew me well enough that I could be semi-bluff raising.
If I can't logically put him on a seven then why isn't the raise correct.
Also, against an unknown or loose player I would not bet the river.
I never really slowplay trips. However, in this situation there were only 3 small bets in the pot. In addition, I cannot put UTG on a draw so I am pretty safe.
This was a very situational play
Assuming that the game was the type where limping UTG with 55 was a positive EV play (doesn't sound like it was given that everyone folded after UTG and you limped), I think that both of you played the hand fine postflop. I don't think you can reraise the river nor can he reraise the turn (although he certainly can call given his perceived 6 outer).
Hi guys,
I still have trouble from time to time with judging the appropriate level of aggressiveness on the river. So I'll post a hand and see what the consensus on the proper river play is ...
The game is very loose and, for the most part, passive. The game is very juicy, in that three of the biggest fish have been running well, and so all three have muliple hundreds of chips sitting in front of them. And I have position on them all ... ;)
PREFLOP
I am in the big blind with AKo. 4 limpers, and then the most aggressive of the big three raises. One cold call, and it's to me. Against a smaller (or tighter) field, I'd normally 3-bet here, but in this instance, I smooth call, and hope for a check-raise in the event of a good flop.
14 small bets in the pot, 7 players.
FLOP: K 7 5 rainbow
Remember what I said about a check-raise? Well, it works beautifully... checked to big fish who bets, one caller, I raise, rest of field drops, leaving only me, fish, and caller.
10 big bets, 3 players
TURN: offsuit Q
I bet, fish calls, muttering "one more," and caller now folds.
Now, the big fish's comment is 85% reliable to mean he is drawing. I would have heard from him with two pair, but he occasionally will wait until the river to raise with anything bigger.
12 big bets, 2 players.
RIVER: T, no flush possible.
Now, it is very likely that my opponent will pay me off with all kind of inferior holdings. However, given his proclivity for raising the river with his bigger hands, and the fact that with the size of the pot, I'll likely be enticed to call any such raise, do I pull the trigger one last time, or do I check and call any bet I get from him??
What do you guys think?
Dave
I would bet and pay off the raise. I think with the size of the pot he will pay you off with a T.
Derrick
Checking the river here is just a bad play. Do you think that your opponent chased you all the way with AJ? That check on the end probably makes him think exactly that and exposes you to a bluff. If you're having a really bad session and he knows it, he might take a shot right here.
You have the best hand here. Bet. It's the only way you'll get paid off. Even if he folds, you WIN. Betcha the fish has AQ, that's the only reason he calls the turn. He's drawing to 2 outs and got hooked when he spiked the Q.
If he does have AJ (highly unlikely), naturally he will raise with the nuts on the river and you have a decision. Then you can smile even bigger knowing that he will play a draw with only 4 outs. Then wait him out, it's only a matter of times. Sometimes it might take 4..6..8 hours but he'll leave broke. Bank on it.
You have only top pair. He can have now, QT, KT or slow play KQ.
When 2-3 limpers are in, and then it's raised when it comes to you in middle/late position. What do you do with medium pocket pair like 88-TT (game is generally loose/passive)?
Thanks.
I often call here hoping that I hit my set, or that I have an overpair to the board. This may be a leak in my game though.
Derrick
I dump here every time.
To be honest, I am not sure what is proper. Could be a leak in my game.
I will usually call in a loose passive game. with several limpers, plus one raiser, none of the limpers are likely to fold, and at least one if not both of the blinds may call as well. you are likely getting enough odds to call just on set value alone, especially considering the loose action after the flop in a raised pot. I might sometimes reraise with the tens, but in this situation I will virtually never fold the nines or eights, but will dump virtually every time if I don't hit a set. This is all assuming an average of five or six players, with only two or three, I would often fold the nines or eights, but reraise the tens.
I think consistently folding here in a loose game is more likely to be a leak than consistently calling.
Dave in Cali
With 7.5 to 1 odds of hitting a set, this is a tough call to make. A factor might be how am I doing in this session? If I'm losing, no way. If I'm winning, I probably reraise with the pair. Who knows:
1) He might just call the 3 bet and check to you on the flop. Whether you bet or take the free card of course depends on what hits.
2) If he 4 bets, then I'm a big dog and can get away on the flop easy if I'm not helped.
3) If everyone calls and you hit, you just made a big pot for yourself with a gutsy (correct? very debatable) play. The last time I looked, the objective of this game was to maximize potential wins and minimize losses. This play definitely maxes the win.
Also, be aware of what your competitors are cold calling raises with. 2 faces? Ace something? Suited connectors (bad players... BAD!!!). If you get a good read, you might be able to get a good flop just on that skill.
As you've probably guessed, I'm partial to a little bit of aggressive play. I think it's a much better play to put in another small bet than to have to check-call all the way and be a loser of 2-3 big bets. In low limit, trust me, you'll get a lot of information if you pull the trigger for a 3 bet. Most players with a big wired pair will glare at you, wrinkle their faces, and reraise. You can almost hear them say, "what are you doing... I got AA!!!! Well I'll show him." Try it, you might like the results :)
Fairly tight/ passive 3/6 game (10-handed).
I'm in the cut-off with AdQc. UTG limps, folded to me, I raise, both blinds call.
Flop: 4 7 Q all hearts.
Checked to me, I bet, only small blind calls.
Turn: Kd
Sb bets into me. SB is a decent player. I dont know much about him.
What do you do?
Regards, ME
Easy dump.
The SB is betting into the preflop raiser who has the initiative. Very unlikely he is trying to bluff. You do not even have top pair with a very dangerous board.
I am guessing he is not on the flush - which I think he might checkraise given your initiative last two rounds. His bet says he doesn't want you to get a free card and beat his set or KK.
Since you don't know him it is difficult to pin him. Doesn't matter - you have to be a big dog at this point.
The pot is so small. There is no way he bets into you with less than a pair of kings. Why bother?
sam
Fold!!!
No draw and an overcard... you're looking up a real steep hill with no rope. Fold and give the small pot. Betcha the SB has K of hearts and figures it's good.
I have AQo in EP. Folded to me, I raise, all fold to SB who calls, BB folds.
Flop: K Q 4
He bets, I raise, he calls.
Turn is a blank. He checks, I check.
River is a blank, he bets, I call.
Comments? Thanks
I would have played it identically. The only possible difference is that I might not raise AQo in EP in low limit.
Your probably beat on the river but I think you need to call him down unless you know him really well and he wouldn't bet unless he had a K. Amazing in LL how often you will turn over the best hand here (certainly enough times to justify calling).
I like the play... it is hard to let go of your hand heads up, and you got a free card by the raise. You may very well be behind, but I would be happy to get there for 3 BB.
Derrick
I would have tossed a bet in on the turn. The way I see it, if you check the turn (and show weakness), he will bet the river and you will have to call him, so you lose an additional 1 BB. Why not throw that 1 BB in on the turn yourself. You give him a chance to fold. If he calls you or raises, you can fold. If he bets the river you can fold. No matter how you play it you lose 1 additional BB when you lose, but you have more ways to win if you bet yourself on the turn.
Just my opinion.
sam
nt
Ditto here.
Your raise on the flop tells him his K is no good. To not bet the turn here is criminal and exposes you to a bluff on the end that you'll have to call anyway.
On the river you have two choices since you have position:
1) Show your hand down 2) Bet again for value if you think there is a reasonable chance he will fold. It's hard to call with K-something when you've bet 3 times unless the guy is a total calling station. If so, then all this is academic because he'll make you show.
I am playing devil's advocate here. What if you are check raised on the turn? Do you let go of your hand and not get to a show down?
Derrick
Yes, because against most sane players, the check-raise means two pair or better because they'd be afraid of AK, so you would fold instead of drawing to at most five outs and posibly no outs to a set.
Peace
Goodie
I would drop my hand in a second to a check-raise on the turn. At low limits I very much doubt you'll be faced with a bluff-check-raise on the turn. You can fold with a clear conscience. I would also fold to a bet on the river (as long as I did bet the turn).
Your hand may or may not be well played. You need to explain your reason for raising on the flop. For instance, against a player who will usually check the king, but bet a lessor hand such as a draw your play might be fine. But it could be better (against this player) if you just call the flop and perhaps raise the turn after the blank hits.
Against someone who likes to lead with the king, a fold might have been better. This is what you need to be thinking about and these are the events that should be impacting how you play the hand.
Thanks for all the responses
The SB was IMO a player who usually bet out if he hit something. But in this case he could be betting a king, but he also could be betting a queen. I was just not sure. So it seemed to me if I raised that I would have a very good chance to buy a free card, even if he got the king. If he had a very good king (like AK) he would probably just call my raise on the flop, and try to check-raise me on the turn, so I would still get a free card. When I showed weakness on the turn, I thought I might could induce a bluff if he didnt have it at all (or had a better queen), so I still would get the bet if he had a worse hand.
"I thought I might could induce a bluff if he didnt have it at all (or had a better queen), so I still would get the bet if he had a worse hand"
That must be " I thought I might induce a bluff if he didnt have it at all (or had a WORSE queen), ......"
Ad Kc, early position.
UTG raises, I make it 3, MP cold calls, LP cold calls, (blinds fold), UTG caps, I call, MP calls, LP calls.
Flop: Th 7d Jc
UTG bets, I raise, MP cold calls, LP re-raises, UTG calls, I call, MP calls.
Turn: Th 7d Jc 4h
UTG bets, I call, MP calls, LP raises, UTG calls, I call, MP calls.
River: Th 7d Jc 4h 6s
UTG checks, I check, MP checks, LP bets, UTG calls, I fold, MP folds.
LP showed a set of tens. UTG showed pocket kings.
Questions:
1) Was I correct to stay in the whole way with my gutshot?
2) Would calling on the flop have been better than raising?
(Do everything I can to win the huge pot, or keep people around when I'm drawing so I can get paid off if I hit).
sam
I'm sorry to say that you overplayed your hand. The three bet before the flop was okay, but when two players call three cold and the original raiser caps it. You have to hit an Ace or a King to have any shot at this pot. On the flop, once utg bets you can call one bet with your gutshot and two overcards because of the pot odds. Raising on the flop serves no purpose because the two people behind you are likely to have a real hand plus the fact that utg might re-raise. If you had not raised, the set of 10's may have raised and KK may have re-raised, therefore you muck. Otherwise muck on the turn.
Peace
Goodie
AK is a very slight favorite to the typical range of utg raising hands only if you stay for all 5 cards, so I don't like the preflop 3-bet. You can afford to let players in. 3-betting also lets him get away from his hand if you hit and lets him bet any real hand he's got with impunity but ties you on. 3-betting with AK is good to either knock out or punish limpers.
When they say to do what you can to win a big pot, they mean everything that's reasonable. Launching a raising war with the obviously worst hand doesn't work. Your flop raise didn't make sense. If he's got a big overpair or a set, he'll 3-bet you. If he's got an underpair, it's probably one that gives him a gutshot and he'll call you with a draw until the river and call you down on the river just in case. The only hand you can beat is AQ or a pure bluff, neither of which are likely. You've also got a downstream cold caller of 3, which usually meants TT-QQ or AK, which puts you in a very bad spot with this flop. If I could read my downstream opponent for a medium pair or better I'd fold to one bet on the flop. Otherwise it's a crying call.
On the turn, with a downstream opponent representing a set/overpair and the probable overpair betting into you, you are certainly looking at 2 bets and possibly 3 or 4, and should consider that some of your (few) outs will sometimes be dead. I'd fold.
The call on the river was right, but any profit you could have made here was lost on the earlier streets.
I probably would have raised on the flop as you did, when it came back capped I probably would have folded. I would have considered my overcards to be unreliable outs at this point.
Derrick
What is the purpose of this raise given the pre-flop action?
If someone with T's can cap it preflop, you can not be sure that your hand won't be good if an overcard hits. You want to maximize your chances of winning this pot because it is now very large. If you can raise and drive out the opponents behind you even though you are behind on the flop, this is the correct play IMO. That is why I would raise the flop.
Derrick
I agree now that I should not have raised, but when it came back to me at 3 bets (not capped), I have a clear call just to draw for a lady. I'll agree my overcards are no good, but the pot is offering huge odds to take another card on my (nut) gutshot.
I misread your post... sorry. I would be wary to raise against a cap preflop, but in this case it isn't a bad decision. Your preflop capper has more liberal standards then most. I think a raise here was poor only because no one left the pot. If you knew the 2 people behind you were likely to call a raise then it is a poor raise. Otherwise, it is not.
When you only have to call one more bet on the flop you can take one off. Now there is almost 15BB in the pot. On the turn you run into the pot is too large to give up syndrome. Is it correct? I would doubt your overcards are good? I guess you are on a 4 outer Q draw. You are bet into by UTG and have a loose raiser behind you. You are looking at ~16:1 or ~20:2 or ~24:3.. You are getting 46:4. This is a tough decision IMO. You made the wrong one, but if I Q had come you would be a genius.
I don't think you played it wrong on any street now that I have read the post properly.
Derrick
When would it be appropriate to consider the extra bets I may pick up on the river if I hit?
You could (and should) consider your implied odds on the turn here. You may have to call 3 bets to win 27 (24:1), but actually you could say you will have to call 3 bets to win 29. This is betting that UTG will bet into you on the river if you hit, and the loose raiser will fold for 2 bets. since the pot is so big, you could assume the loose raiser will call...
If you miss you won't pay anymore bets on the river, so you don't have to add to the 3 bets you would pay on the river.
Therefore, you would have to call 3 bets to win 31 (Almost 10:1) on a gutshot that you may have to call 3 bets for...
If you think someone may be there with the same hand as you (you both have AK), then you implied odds are chopped in half.
Derrick
First of all, how was the pre-flop capper more liberal than most? How do you play KK pre-flop? Secondly, I still don't understand the raise on the flop. There is no way that with the pot being capped and three other players that he has the best hand. Also, he is very unlikely to get a free card even if there was no-one behind you. But in this case, there was. Utg will most likely re-raise with what is obviously an overpair and bet the turn. There is no purpose to the raise except to cost him more money.
However, I was mistaken about the odds. If utg bet the flop, he called, LP raised and utg re-raised he is still correct in calling two bets with his gutshot given the odds. Then on the turn, he should decide what to do given his read of whether or not the LP will raise again. If he thinks he will, fold, if he thinks he won't, he is once again getting odds to call one bet.
But, the way he played it, it was very likely that the LP was going to raise the turn given his three bet on the flop so he would have been better off folding to one bet on the turn because he is not getting odds to call two bets.
Anyways, that's way I see it.
Peace
Goodie
First of all, how was the pre-flop capper more liberal than most?
Sorry I thought the T's capped preflop... Man I have butchered this post. I would cap every time with K's... but...
There is no way that with the pot being capped and three other players that he has the best hand...
You don't have to have the best hand here to raise on the flop. what you want to do is narrow the field, so you have the best chance of winning. For instance you want other A's and K's to fold. Therefore, if you hit your overcards they may be good. IMO
Derrick
1. post flop raise huge mistake. with the sb betting out, you had to know you were behind. he probably had a high pair (i wouldn't have guessed 10s). since you were on a draw, you want to get in as cheaply as possible and let as many players in-a raise is doubly wrong here.
2. why did you call the river. did you really think that everyone was on a pure bluff - you didn't even have a pair.
unfortunately, we've all played hands like this. as long as you only do this once in a blue moon, its ok. just don't make a habit of it.
good luck
tootight
nt
I suspected a set on the flop when LP raised, and I knew it was a set on the turn.
AKo is a hard hand for a lot of people to get away from, and a lot of people overplay it. The only way that you are not beaten is if a Queen comes on the turn or river (without the other card pairing the board!). Four people put in a lot of money, I would guess that cuts down on the number of available queens further reducing your odds.
An A or a K only gets you in more trouble.
Finally, this is a scenario I love to be in - flop a set and get chased by a lot of people all of the way to the river. I've made a lot of money on these plays and in low limit - I don't even have to disguise it. Throw money in with both hands - they will come.
Just got back from my second annual (so far) trip to Las Vegas. There were three hands that I hope to get some feedback on.
$4-$8 at the Horseshoe: I was in the cut-off w/ KK. Everyone folds to a very loose player in the 8 seat (I'm in the two seat). I'm getting nervous that my KKs arent going to get paid off when he calls. 9, 10, and 1 all fold. I raise. The button re-raises. 8 seat calls. I reraise. The button calls. 8 seat calls.
[I hadn't spent a lot of time playing w/ the button, but he was your classic "rock" type player. In his 70s, unimaginitive, seemed to be playing relatively few hands. I actually thought about folding my kings, but changed my mind and raised instead. An alarm went off when he just called, but as you'll see, I didn't heed it. He had reraised and played very aggressively preflop earlier w/ KQs. Was that "advertising?"]
The flop comes AKx rainbow. Inexplicably the 8 seat bets. I raise. The button reraises. 8 seat calls. I make it four. The button calls, as does 8 seat.
[Here, I tried to tell myself "maybe he's only got AK or A-face. I was hoping he'd cap it so I could fold w/ a clear conscious, but my brother tells me that it would have been a mistake to fold here even if he showed me his pocket aces. The pot was pretty big.]
The turn and river rag off, 8 seat and I go into check-call mode. The button had pocket aces and takes it down.
$3-$6 at the Mirage: Let me just say that I HATE the $3-$6 game at the Mirage and will never play there again. It is too tight and by far a tougher game than the $4-$8 at the 'Shoe or the Bellagio. There were two assholes at the table being aggressive and unpleasant. One guy kept talking about how he was in Griffin's black book, and how easy counting down a 6 deck shoe was, etc. He bet on the come and showed it off w/ a snide comment when everyone folded. The other guy was a sports bettor who was equally obnoxious and braggadocious. Both seemed to be solid players, but I let my ego get in the way. The "card-counter" was being particularly "dramatic" in his table-talk and demenor, and I guess I let that lull me into thinking he was just a bully and wannabe. Both were talking loudly to each other, slowing down the game and appearing not to be paying attention.
The game was fairly tight and short handed (6 to 7 players. I think it was six handed for both of these hands).
I had 77 UTG and raised. Normally I would call w/ this hand in this spot in a loose-passive game or fold in a tougher game. Everyone folded to the button (the sports bettor) who reraised. The flop came ATx. I don't remember the suits. I bet out. The button asked the dealer "is that the original raiser?" For some reason I took this as license to keep playing fast, hoping he would put me on an ace, since I was early and playing tight. He called. The turn paired Tens. I bet, he called. The river was insignificant; I bet, he called. He had pocket queens and took it down. At the time, I though, "What was he doing calling me down against that board?" But, what was I doing betting...
The last hand was against the card counter. I made a loose (possible tilt-induced) call w/ Qd7d on the button w/ four callers. The card counter was in the big blind and raised. Everyone called.
The flop came Jack high w/ two diamonds. The big blind bet, we got at least one caller (I don't remember the exact number as I don't have my notes infront of me) so I raised for the free card. He reraised. Everyone who was still in folded to me. I called. The turn was an Ace. He bet, I called. The river was a Queen. He bet. Because he was so aggressive on the flop I put him on a Jack, or his putting me on diamonds and trying to screw up my free card. I called, hoping my queen would be good. He had flopped a set of Jacks. Was my play terrible here? I guess I wouldn't be writing this if a diamond had come on the river.
Advice and comments most welcome.
In the first hand you should sit up and take notice when a rock 3 bets you. 4 betting pre-flop was a mistake. When I flop a K I'm committed and will see those aces. However, unlike your brother , if he shows me the aces early I'll fold.
In the second hand it seems like you let your emotions get the better of you. I also had bad experiences playing at the Mirage on my last trip. The good news is you're in Vegas and there's another game just down the street. Learn from your mistake and next time pick up your chips.
Hand 3 there's not much to say. Your call pre-flop was weak but then you were committed. The ace on the turn should have been able to save you a bet on the river as the only hand you can beat is K-J.
Hand #1 - in low limit games, it's often the best hand wins and 77 is not very good hand to raise UTG. Especially when you are 3-bet preflop, you almost have to be in check-fold situation unless you hit the flop.
Hand #2 - if he's the kind of player would 3 bet the flop, it's better to just call with your flush draw. If it's 4 bets to cap, then you should've just capped it for 1 more bet.
Hand 1- The opponent in question would have to be
a complete rock for me to fold KK. Then, a
set of kings is even harder to lay down.
My concern is you had the correct initial
read, but let yourself get trapped by a hope.
Hand 2- When 3 bet with a small pair, you have to
hope for a small flop or a 7. With two
overcards on the flop to your pair, the odds are very big you are beat. Fold on the flop.
Hand 3- You simply played a bad hand here and got
punished. When you were 3 bet on the flop,
the flush was your only out.
All three of these hands indicate I think some
"tilt" in your game. Hand 1 was just a bad break,
but the other two hands are fundamental leaks that
you need to learn from.
Thanx for the interesting hands Jeff. Don't let those guyz put you off your game. Remember too, there are lots of other tables at the Mirage. With jerks like that, I usually ask for a table change right off the bat. To play your best game, you must be at a table where you are comfortable and can monitor your own play. Leave jerks like that for the day care center.
Hand #1: Confucius say beware of tight old men with cobwebs on chips. If he plays, he's playing with KK, AK, or AA only. Tough to fold set of K though, I couldn't do it. Bad luck.
Hand #2: Think your raise with 77 UTG was a "Take that" directed at your buddies. Were you on tilt? It's OK, I've done that too. Not necessarily a bad play, maybe could have saved a bet on the end by checking the river. In that situation, I probably bet the flop and the turn. He's thinking the only hand that beats me is an Ace and I'm gonna make him show me a better hand.
Hand #3: This is a tough one. I definitely think your button call with Q7 was marginal at best. I don't think you had good enough odds preflop to merit a call. Your buddy's raise in the BB is more puzzling to me. JJ does not play well against 4 other opponents. He really needs that hand heads-up or with lots more people. On the flop, he probably pauses and says "Thank Youuuu Dealer" internally. His reraise on a dangerous flop tells me set of something. Bad luck not catching your flush, but give him some credit. He read your play correctly and stopped you cold. I would have mucked my hand without a call on river, knew that the Q was no good. Those are the hands that make Hold Em absolutely maddening but thankfully at 3-6, the tuition is cheap. Just learn from the experience, and move on. Who knows what happens tomorrow?
All you can do is give yourself the best chances to win. Sometimes they work out, other times not. Take care and good fortune go with you.
I'm dealt AsKs at a full online $5-10 table. Sane, but aggressive player raises in cut-off after one limper. Button drops and SB re-raise. I have no read on SB. Fold, call or cap?
Flop: J-x-x, two clubs, one spade. I have runner-runner flush and straight draws and two overcards. However, the only hands SB could have that I have a good situation against are QQ and possibly AK without clubs and AQs, no clubs. SB bets out, fold, call or raise? Raise is obviously out of the question. I called, I think it was a bad one, despite 6 big bets in the pot pre-flop.
I folded to a third, low club on the turn, and SB won it with jacks full against 8c6c on the early limper.
The reason I found this hand interesting is how I can defend cold-calling two pre-flop if I need a four-flush or a pair to continue playing, and even then lose some (to AA, KK or simply by not hitting the flush).
lars
Preflop, it would be insane to fold ace-king suited in the big blind for any number of bets. I would call and not cap. I am assuming that the limper called two more bets which is probably a bad play since he did not have enough hand to raise initially. I will also assume that the cutoff called. At this point, there should be $60 in the pot and four players.
When bet into for $5 once the flop comes, you are getting 13-to-1 pot odds. Your two big overcards as well as your backdoor possibilities make calling correct. Your fold on the turn is right.
You played fine.
i read like crazy on here (and generally agree) that you always have to show a hand and can't ever bluff a pot and can't get people to fold those lucky rags, etc. well, for the most part that is true. in a 2-4 game at the bicycle i had AKs and raised preflop, got reraised, and just called. flop comes AQ2 rainbow. i bet the whole way, and a J on the river pairs the reraiser's J2 offsuit!!! how do you call with J2 after that flop?!!?? well, that's one example of the truth of that statement. but i had been sitting in a 1-2 game before that (i only had like 40 bucks with me). at this table, i was buying pots like mad. people were folding to my check-raise bluffs. it was mad!! i felt like a bully in the sandbox! the problem was that that table broke up and there were no more 1-2 tables open!! did i drive players out? and the same thing happened at the 2-4 table when i moved there. it was the only table. was i being to aggressive in these games? extracting every last bet too much? i tried to keep it as friendly as possible.
you stand little chance of this stealing phenomenon continuing to last very long at low limit. you can steal pots against tight players, especially if they are way too conservative when the pot is shorthanded. but in a loose full ring game, you won't steal many, if any, pots. get over this. check-raise bluffing in low limit poker is basically paying two bets to lose instead of folding and losing no bets. when you do happen to be against tight players, go ahead and steal some pots, but expecting this to continue is foolish and will cost you.
A more productive strategy would be getting used to being reraised by J2o, and then losing to two pair on the river....
being friendly in the way that you bet is fairly irrelevant when playing against totally oblivious opponents, keeping the game itself pleasant is more important....
Dave in Cali
In low-limits it's not unusual(as you have mentioned)to constantly run into hands like J2o and lose to 2-pair. And the hand you spoke of here you weren't even bluffing! I would smile at this situation because you know where the $ is going to end up.
Then you mentioned in the other game when you were "bluffing like mad" and they were dropping like flies. I wouldn't flex your muscles and give yourself so much credit as it might have been just a tougher tighter game and those players were folding based on their holdings and lack of pot odds. I've played in some 2-4 and 3-6 games that were tougher and tighter than 20-40 and 30-60 games in the same cardroom. There are some mighty fine low limit players that play low limits due to bankroll requirements or can't handle the swings or the added pressure that the high limits bring.
As a rule in low limit (and also in medium limits) a pure bluff is almost never profitable in the long run. There are times when a pure bluff can be profitable and that has to do with how well you know your opponents. As they say in HEPFAP leave your self outs with semi-bluffing. In the game like you mentioned where players fold too often you should semi-bluff more often. Beware of pure bluffing because it could wind up being your downfall and your credibility will be affected greatly.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
I like this post. You should rarely bluff, especially pure bluffs where you have no outs, in low limit games. Against weak-tight players, there are some situations where pure bluffs can be very profitable, but these situations are rare. Semi-bluffing will still be more profitable against these players though, you should generally have outs when you bluff with more cards to come in low limit games. Excessive pure bluffs will cost you, and cost you a lot if you keep it up in low limit poker. The situation frodo described is incredibly rare, and if he or anyone else decides this is a good strategy for use in everyday low limit play, they will be hitting the ATM often during their poker carreer.
Dave in Cali
Ability to bluff depends on the tightness/aggressiveness of the game and also on your own table image.
I've been in low limit games loaded with calling stations where you couldn't get away with anything. You had to show down a winner at the end. For the most part, I believe that will remain fundamentally true.
I do believe that it's possible to bluff in a loose passive game under the correct conditions. These conditions at minimum:
1) You better be winning substantially
2) You better have showed down lots of good winning hands recently
3) You better have a shorthanded pot (3 or less)
4) You better be against the right people in the pot who are capable of possibly folding a better hand to your bluff/semi-bluff.
For example, a favorite of mine would be a medium wired pair under the gun (8s through 10s) for a raise. If the flop misses but puts an A or K out there, I will bet and probably bet the turn as well shorthanded. Just be careful because this play can cost you money if the tight old man (TOM) is in the game and will faithfully call you and make you show him a hand. If you flop a set, you've got a deceptive hand. You can also flop the overpair when rags come and bet confidently that your opponents have paint.
Each game has a different texture, find out what it is as soon as possible and assess whether bluffs will be profitable.
3-6 Hold'em in albuquerque, NM: I'm in the BB with Q5o, 2 middle position players limp to the button. He picks up his chips and looks like he's going to raise, then as he moves his hand forward I swear I see his hand shake, but he just calls. I figure he has a big pair (probably AA). The flop comes Q53 rainbow. I consider check raising but decide to go ahead and bet because I think the big pair may raise, then I can reraise. My bet causes the limpers to drop and sure enough the button raises, I reraise, button caps..(?) As I called the cap I must admit that I feared he had QQ...Until Qc fell on the turn. I bet, he raises, I reraise, he calls all-in. River is a blank, and he turns over Q3o!!!??!!! Now I realize that I was WAY off in assessing his hand and I'm not sure why he even called in the first place but it's hands like this that make all of those 7-2 suck outs worth while...
10-handed 3/6 game.
All fold to me in cut-off. I hold KJo. I raise, button folds, SB 3-bets, BB folds. I call. I've now been playing with SB for an hour or so, and he hasnt been involved in many pots, and the ones he was in, he played fine. I havent seen him make tricky moves.
Flop: 5 J 7 rainbow.
He bets out, I raise, he calls.
Turn: T
He checks, I bet, he calls.
River: A
He bets out, I fold. I folded because he seemed to me a decent player, who would only 3-bet PF if he had a good hand. In this case I strongly put him on AK or AQ. If he had KQ he would win also. I could not figure a hand that i have beat.
Comments?
Regards, ME
Your fold is probably correct. However, a good player will realize that an ace at the river is a great scare card and creates a good bluffing situation especially if he was on a busted draw. Preflop, his reraise out of the small blind does not denote a premium hand necessarily since he is reacting to your late position open-raise which could be a steal. In other words, a good player will three bet here with any medium pocket pair or any two big cards. I would probably call at the river just to make sure I was not getting robbed.
I completely agree with Jim. Like he said you might have been beat but for one more bb I would call just to make sure. AK and AQ are possible, but why would he call the turn? If he did, I would consider him a poor player in relationship to the size of the pot. Drawing to an inside straight, w/two over cards is a mistake. If you were in fact beat, I think the only hand this player could have had was KQ. TL
I am in a loose passive 3-6-12 game (12 on the river). I am in middle position and pick up QhTh. There is no raise preflop and 8 callers including myself. (8 SB)
Flop is 7h-4s-2h: SB bets out, call, call, raise, fold, fold, I reraise, button caps. SB folds... everyone else calls. (21 more SB for a total of 29 SB). The reason I raise here is because I want my overcards to be good if they come, it didn't really work as I had planned though.
Turn is 7h-4s-2h-8h: BB bets, fold, raise, I call, button calls, BB calls.
River is 7h-4s-2h-8h-6d: BB checks, early position bets 12, I call, button calls, BB folds...
Please comment on my play.
Derrick
Well, It's pretty weak, but I was guilty of almost the exact same situation a while back. I got J-c Q-c, it's been long enough that I don't recall position, but the flop had two clubs and two to a straight. It was $6-$12 and a very passive game. I called a couple of $6 bets and got heads up with a total calling station. The turn was checked, the river was a third club and also made the straight possible. I checked, he bet, I called. He turned over the straight. Looking back on that hand as I often do, I really played it like a pussy. I regret not putting in a check raise after he bet into me on the river, but it was my first venture into a cardroom and I guess I was looking for the monster under the bed. Live and learn. Next time I'll invest some chips into that kind of situation, and if I run into a bigger flush, oh well. I surely wouldn't get into a raising war if he comes back over the top of me, but I really feel that I missed out on some extra money. I think you're in the lead the majority of the time here, so if you lose a few to the bigger flush, you'll still come out on the plus side in the end. I'm guessing that you're opponent had a straight as well?
I don't think this is the same situation. First I hit on the turn... I think this is where I made my mistake. I should have 3 bet... There could have been a dry A or K out there against me. There could have been a set or 2 pair.
You were heads up I had 4 way action at the river. It is a little harder to play a Q high flush hard against 3 other opponents.
I don't think a raise on the river is correct because I don't want to pay off a $12 reraise.
Just My Opinions.
Derrick
I think you played the hand fine. When it's bet and raised to you on the turn when the third heart comes, you have to be worried about a higher flush given the action on the flop. I would have played the hand the same way as you. I'm assuming you won the pot?
Peace
Goodie
I think the flop raise is questionable. I understand your reasoning. However, it sounds like there is only one player left to act before the SB - so how many are you really going to knock out? 1 or 2. You are also subject to a reraise. What are your chances for a free card?
Rest of the play seems fine. I might fold the raise on the turn depending on the player. However, in most LL you need to at least call it down.
Never played this structure before. Turn raise certainly seems viable. For half the cost of the river bet you should know where you are at.
What are your chances for a free card?
I think if the button had folded I would have been in a great position to get a free card. However, he capped it.
Derrick
I like the way you played this hand. I fully approve of your flop reraise having a flush draw plus two overcards which do not complement the board. You have 15 outs with two cards to come making you a mathematical favorite to make a flush or top pair by the river and you will be going to the river with this hand in almost all cases. Your reasoning was excellent.
However, when the turn gets bet and raised to you then you showed prudent judgement in just calling and not reraising. Your flush is no where near the nuts. However, in these little games guys show up with all kinds of stuff so you must stay. The bettor might have a pair or a straight and the raiser could have a lower flush than you or not even have a flush at all. In this situation all you can do is call and hope your hand holds up.
There was nothing weak about your play at any time.
The problem is that you can have no confidence that any of your outs are good.
What percent (cumulative) of the time do you think your outs will be good? I would guess less than a third, given the play so far. You have approx. 1/2 chance of hitting an out. making you an approximate 6/1 dog.
Are you getting 6/1 on your raise (not even recognizing the possibility of a reraise)?
I like playing this hand as cheaply as possible
On the flop, I think your flush outs will be good the majority of the time. At this point there is no reason to assume they wouldn't be. In low limit games, guys call flop bets with any piece of the board like bottom pairs, middle pairs, gutshots, and other horrid stuff. A guy will raise on top pair, good kicker and you have outs to beat this hand. While your overcard outs may not be good all the time, there will be a certain percentage of the time when if you make top pair on the turn or river it will hold up as the best hand. Furthermore, reraising has other advantages. It may get you a free card later. It may drive someone else out who would have hung around to beat you.
I agree that there are some situations where you might consider dumping a baby flush-draw on the flop if it is bet and raised to you with other callers but I think this comes more into play in middle limit games than in low limit games. Furthermore, a queen-high flush draw is a little more than a baby flush-draw but admittedly not much more. Having the nut flush-draw or even a king-high flush draw is vastly superior.
I have been thinking a lot about this thread and I must admit that it gets more confusing the more I think about it. If I take the logical conclusion of my own agrument one should not only not raise on the flop but they should fold. If you take the logical extent of your argument you should most likely bet aggressively if you hit. At this point, I don't like either option.
I think a lot of it comes down to how you rate the field you are against. In no foldem (at Canterbury) I certainly raise. At PP where I normally play the game is a lot better than people give it credit for. There are fish but you can also run into a lot of decent LL players.
I have been trying to boil down these kinds of situations to thier mathematical roots; place percentages on player's possible hands, odds on future cards hitting, odds how they will play when certain cards hit, and how I will react. I use a binomial model but the decision trees get huge very quickly.
I just ordered Hold'em's Odd(s) by Michael Petriv. Hope it helps.
This game sure is complicated.
Early player had JXh. I showed next and took down the pot. I suspect the button had a set though.
Derrick
If I don't hit the flush here, I'm gone from this hand on the turn. Whether I play 3-6 or 6-12 my reasoning will stay the same--I feel like I'm ahead, I'm raising. If he comes back over the top, I might fold if I get a good enough read. Poker is a game of subtle questions and shouted answers. I don't hear anybody yelling in your description. I'm not ctiricizing your play, I just think you stand to win many more times than you'll lose here. Would I have the balls to put up another twelve bucks? I didn't last time. Talk is cheap, that's why I love this forum.
I understand why you would call when you got the flush. But I do not understand why you would raise before your hand was made and then call all the way down. Now, I have been killed (more than once in a single session) with K high Flush to A high Flush. And, when I have had A high Flush in those same low limit sessions, I have been killed with boats. But, if I am raising at my draw, I am surely going to raise once I hit. With 2 of 13 flush cards in your hand and three on the board and only two possibilities greater than you, it seems unlikely that anyone else is suited higher.
...But I do not understand why you would raise before your hand was made and then call all the way down.
I raised on the come on the flop. IMO I had any T or Q or any flush card to come... 14 outs... > 50% on the flop of completing. I 3 bet on the flop to help ensure my overcards were good. If I 3 bet AQ should drop etc. When I get raised again on the flop I was pretty sure the button had a set... however, I didn't know this when I originally 3 bet. I do think I made a mistake by not 3 betting the turn as well even though I could very well be drawing dead... I was pretty sure the button had a set, so he had 10 outs against my hand, and there could very well have been the dry A and/or K out there which had 7 outs against me. This is where I think I made a mistake.
...two possibilities greater than you, it seems unlikely that anyone else is suited higher.
There are many more then 2 possible flush hands better then mine... AKs, AJs, A9s... KJs, K9s... There are many possibilities here, and that is why I got scared.
If I had 3 bet the turn, I would have known where I was though, and I would have been pretty sure I was ahead. I could have been beaten by KXs, but that is about it. Obviously, the AXs would hit me back on the turn.
Thanks for your post.
Derrick
It seems like you write this post like you think you played it like a little girl, then vigorously defend any post that questions your play. Which is it? I think you played it like a complete girl(read:pussy) on the river, most other posters take your side. Do you think you played it right? I guess that's a rhetorical question, but why name the post like you're unhappy with how you played it if you really feel that your play was completely justified? How many times do you really think you're going to be shown a higher flush? I think you lost out on another bet.
I don't think my call preflop was bad, the table was passive, and there were lots of callers.
I don't think I played the flop badly 3 betting a flush draw and overcards I think is the right thing to do.
The turn is where I question myself. Whether I did it wrong or not I'm not sure... I guess that is why I asked. BUT, I still think I should have 3 bet the turn. I have a good (not great) hand, and if I am ahead there are lots of ways for me to lose. I guess at the time I just felt like I may not be ahead.
In my replies I am not necessarily defending myself, but I am pointing out things that I think should be considered. For instance in the above... I don't have the 3rd nut flush I have a flush... If I had a K high flush I am pretty sure I would have 3 bet it... at least I hope I would have 3 bet it...
IMO, I think I did play weakly on 4th street, but I don't think I should have popped it on the river. It would have been a different situation had I 3 bet the turn though...
Derrick
nt
This was very agressive play with this hand. With these cards I'm looking for a Straight Flush, a nut straight, Queens full, if I hit a flush like you did, I call all the way and pray that there is no higher flush out there. I'm happy if I win and I don't care how much. I'll take it as a gift from the table. It would be different if you flop the flush, but you didn't. But then again, I'm probably wrong.
Tough call Derrick, but a GREAT thread question! Not knowing the players, just that its a loose/passive game, I might have raised the raiser on the turn. If he re-raises, then I'd call his $12 dollar bet on the river. If he'd just call the turn re-raise, I'd HAMMER him on the river. Did that make sense? Just a thought. I love this game.
I played this hand last night. Low-limit, pretty loose table. This type of situation comes up often and I am never sure how to handle it.
I am in the BB with Jh Jc.
MP limps, LP limps, SB folds, I limp. 3 players, 3.5 SB in the pot.
Flop is 2c 6c 3d
I bet, both players call. Still 3 players, now there is 6.5 SB in the pot.
Turn is 7h
I bet, MP folds, LP raises.
What do I do? And what do I do on the river (if I'm still around?)
sam
(btw, a 6 fell on the river and I lost to 6s full of 3s)
Preflop, you should raise from your big blind with pocket jacks against only two limping opponents. Your hand is almost certainly best and you need to make the other two players pay to play against you.
Of course you bet the flop with your overpair. When both players call this could mean one guy is drawing and the other has a pair, frequently top pair.
On the turn, the 7h is a blank. You bet and get raised with the other player folding. I would call every time here. Your overpair still beats top pair. The guy could be raising on something like Ac-7c or just some hand with a seven, who knows? If he has two pair like sevens over sixes you still have 8 outs to beat this hand.
I would call the river bet as well. In a heads-up situation an overpair is normally a through-ticket unless the board is incredibly scary.
I was playing in a good 4/8 game last night. Picked up AQ one off the button. A player who I have played with a few times raises in middle position. The player has shown some loose raising standards (ie. KQ under the gun, suited aces early etc.) I reraise (to get the flop heads up and because my AQ is better than many of the hands she raises with) and we see the flop heads up.
Flop A K 2 rainbow.
She Checks and calls my bet
turn is a blank
She check raises me.
I called and called again after river blanked.
Was shown AK
Here are my questions.
1. Should I have mucked this in the first place.
2. Once I decided to play, should have I checked the turn.
as a fairly new player any advice/info would be appreciated
thanks Brad
If a player has the loose raising standards you suggest, I would definitely 3 bet this hand. If the player is a solid early position raiser I would fold. I like your play the entire way. If you know the person well enough to know you are beat when you are check raised, then you can let go of this hand then. If you don't you have to call it down.
Derrick
Derrick has this right.
I also agree. Against aggressive players, sometimes you have to bite the bullet and call them down when they pull a move like this. Given Brad's description of the player, I think he played fine. This particular time she had a better hand than his, but if he has her assessed correctly, he will do better against her in the long run in similar situations.
Remember, the true measure of your play is not what the individual result was on any given play, but whether or not you made the correct play at the time you had to decide. I wouldn't check the turn here in case she had raised with KQ or a weak ace, and once raised on the turn, I would have also called her down.
Dave in Cali
You should fold to the checkraise on the turn from an obvious-playing player as you are likely drawing dead.
Chris
I would have folded after the check raise you should have know that she must have had something to check raise with.
I am just curious as to if anyone knows where the best card rooms are in the Oregon/Washington area. Take into consideration the looseness of play, rake, and other accomodations. My freinds and I are looking to take a little trip. My freinds and I aren't 21 yet so the room would have to have an age limit of 18.... All info appreciated.
Ganked
I believe Chinook Winds only has 3 poker tables...so I wouldn't choose that one...but there is a vast amount of card rooms in Washington, but I dont know too much about them....
Shaftman
Yea I heard the same about Chinook... So I am really just curious as to good rooms in Washington. Thanks for the input.
Ganked
Your best bet in the Portland area is the New Frontier in La Center WA. I think 18 is ok, and the action is great. Spirit Mountain in Grande Rhonde has good action and is non-smoking.
La Center is where I usually play and I was actually looking to take a little trip to like Seattle or Tacoma or something. Wondering if it is worth it to go there or just play at La Center.
Ganked
Ganked,
Here is a quick rundown of the rooms around Seattle. If I had to guess I would say very few allow 18yr. olds though. Give 'em a call. If you find one that does, email me and I'll tell you more about it. I know some fun home games/tourneys in Seattle too. Email me for details.
I only play Hold 'Em so am not well versed on what other games are spread where.
Muckleshoot Casino in Auburn (800) 804-4944
Biggest room in the area (30 tables?). Spreads HE from 4-8 to 20-40. LL players are competent but there are enough fish to make the game profitable for a thinking player. Pretty good food, you get almost anything on the menu just for asking. Nice staff. Can get busy on weekends but they have a lot of tables so waits are not too bad. Excellent players at the higher limits.
Diamond L'ils in Renton (206) 255-9037
Nice smaller room (~10 tables) connected to a restaurant/lounge. Great staff. HE from 3-6 to 12-24. Pretty smokey. 1/2 price on food while playing, but its only so-so. LL games are very beatable, especially on weekends. 6-12 and 8-16 are pretty tight but passive in general, beatable if you have good skills.
The Hideaway in Shoreline (206) 362-9494
Closest room to Seattle and the grimiest. 4 tables, usually two 4-8 and two 10-20. Shitty food, shitty service and the games are generally the wildest in the area. I have been in games with people capping pre-flop without looking. Prepare for big swings at either level, but smart play can win you some dough.
Kenmore Lanes in Bothell (206) 486-8646
I am pretty sure this one might be OK for 18 year olds. Very small room in a bowling alley. Usually only 2 tables going, both 3-6 or 4-8 depending on player's choice. Lots of young players, many of whom are bad. A few older rocks. Notorious for loose but not wild games. No fold'em. See the flop for one bet and chase type action. Wait can be hell on weekends.
New Sonny's in Federal Way (253) 945-0777
Nice, clean room attached to a Chinese restaurant. Might be another good bet for under 21. Spreads HE 4-8 to 12-24. Nice staff and clean room, only moderately smokey. Haven't been there for live action in a while but they have a nice 25 buy-in 25 rebuy NL tourney every morning at 10AM. Local pros haunt the 8-16 and 12-24 games.
These are only a sample of many rooms in WA. Go to www.pokersearch.com for a list and phone numbers but not much else info.
Re:rake. I play recreationally only and so don't pay much attention to the rake. If I did it might discourage me from playing and that would keep me from enjoying myself! Anyway, I think it is pretty reasonable--around 10% up to 3 or 4 bucks, plus jackpot buck. As far as I know there is not one place that advertises as having a lower rake than anywhere else.
Good luck.
KJS
Thanks a lot for all the info. I'll look into the rooms you provided.
Ganked
Mandalay Bay $4-8 game, $1-2 blinds.
MP limps, CO calls, I check in the BB with 5-7 clubs. $7 in the pot. (Only $2 to call the blinds)
Flop: 4,6,8 mixed
Flop the straight. What's the best way to play this? I check planning to raise if bet, but also thinking getting an overcard on the turn might get me some action from one or both of these guys if checked around. It gets checked around.
Turn: 5, crap!
Now I bet and get called all the way, they both show a 7. Cut nothing 3-ways. CO, a regular who had 7-8s, comments "you should have bet the flop, it would have gotten MP out"
CO's statement is probably true. But,IMO he should have bet the flop w/top pair and the straight draw.
Comment on my play. I'm a very new player.
Sometimes betting the hand is the best deception--the other players will often assume that you would check if you floped a straight. This works best when you bet out and are raised. Depending on the player, I would reraise or wait until the turn and check raise.
As a low limit player new to the game due yourself a huge favor and minimize your use of the check-raise in these situations. In low limit games, players are not as aggressive as they are in middle limit games and you cannot rely on your passive opponents to bet your hand for you. Bet your own hand. While it is temporarily the nuts, it can be overtaken downstream. You will get calls from drawing hands, from top pair hands, from overpairs, or from any loose, goose with any piece of the board. These players will call with a lot more hands than they will bet with themselves. The fact that two players both happen to have a seven and a five showed up on the turn is just happenstance and it probably would have occurred whether you bet your hand or not since a guy with a seven figures he has a gutshot straight draw and will call anyway.
I agree with Jim and George. You should bet here. Although you currently have the nuts, you can most definitly be out drawn. tl
I'm BB with A3s, 4 players, no raise, free play for me. Flops come J J 3 r. I check, check, check, button bets. I fold, fold, call. Buttons bets turn and river and is called. He shows AQo, the caller doesn't show. Was my fold correct? Was the buttons play a bluff or a good play? I felt my hand was to weak to get involved. Any comments?
nt
I think you definitely were correct in folding, not only because youre hand is weak but you are out of position as well. You could have very easily run into a check-raise here if you call the button bluff. I think the button made a bad bet on the flop and is lucky he didn't get called by more than one player. I wonder what the other guy had, that he would call on the flop, turn, river, and then not be able to beat A-Q?
I would definitely semi-bluff bet this hand on the flop. You have "the right to first steal" if you can represent a J and get the field to fold. Plus you have a made hand which might be best. You even have very slim redraw outs if you get called by a J. If this is the type of game where someone will fold a hand like 44 or 55 a bet is definitely in order.
If you bet and get raised you can dump it and if you get called down you can either try to push them off on the turn or just dump to a turn bet. Knowing your players will help here.
KJS
In my opinion, if you decide to continue here you have to be very aggressive to find out what you are up against. I believe folding here is correct 99% of the time. The 1 percent that you do play it, it will be costly if you lose. With 5 callers, good chance the J is out there. You and the button are in steal positions. When the button bet you would have to raise or fold. Hopefully, if the J is out, you will be re-raised and then you can dump. But a lot of times the lone J will just smooth call the stealers and raise on the turn. Then what do you do? Ahhh fold. Sometimes it is best to avoid pissing contests with obvious bluffs. Oh yeah one more thing. Maybe the button does actually have the J. TL
I like T. Logan's assessment of the steal posibilities in this hand. In my opinion, you really nailed it.
What kind of player is the button? Beginner? Seasoned? Recreational? Loose cannon?
With a rainbow ragged flop like that (no straight or flush out), someone with a J is not going to bet the flop if he/she is any reasonable player. They'll wait for the turn where the bets double or even the river if the board is ragged enough (say an offsuit 7 hits the turn). If he/she is a predictable beginner and will bet with a J, say nice hand, thank you very much, smile and muck as fast as you can.
When the button bets, I ask myself, Why????? That's a weak play to buy 4 small bets. If you do call in this situation, better make sure nobody else comes with you. But then again, you'll find out where the J is really quick. If it's just you and the button, I recommend a check raise on the turn with a safe card (no paint or ace.) Then bet out on the river. Again, I'd only recommend if it's just you and the button after the flop. If a third player comes, then check and fold.
Guys,
I just gave some advice on another forum and wanted to run it by you knowledgeable people as well.
Assume that I am sitting on the turn with a flush, heads-up against an opponent who flopped a set. Assume that I played correctly up to that point (always my biggest and weakest assumption). If I suspect my opponent has a set don't I need to be hyper-aggressive on the turn betting for the fear of the board pairing on the river?
Jon I.
I would say YES!! If my math is correct (big if), the board wil pair about 21.7% of the time or 4.6-1. So you're going to win the hand over 78% of the time (assuming your opponent has no other outs except pairing the board). I like those odds and would try to get as much money in the middle as possible.
If you have a flush and you knew with 100% certainty that your lone opponent has a set, then he has 10 cards from 46 unseen cards (not counting the two cards in your hand) with which to beat you. He is a 3.6:1 dog. For every dollar you raise, you are getting a dollar in return and you are a 3.6:1 favorite to win. You should love this kind of return and keep raising until one of you is all-in. Of course, this is highly artificial since you never really know this for sure. If your flush is the nut flush then you can raise with impunity but otherwise, at some point you have to back off without the nuts.
Wouldn't 10 cards from 46 unseen be: 10/46 -> 4.6 - 1?
No. 46 is the total number of unknown cards. 10 is the cards that will improve your opponent. The number of cards then, that DON'T improve him is 36. Thus the ratio is 36 to 10 or 3.6 to 1. You win 3.6 times for every 1 time he wins.
Sorry, I was thinking probability and not odds. For the record odds = (probability of the event happening)/(probability of the event not happening). So in this case (10/46)/(1-(10/46)) -> (10/46)/(36/46) -> 10/36 or 3.6 - 1.
Thanks, Jim. That is exactly how I had it figured (although I assumed 44 remaining unknown cards, considering the assumption that you know the opponents hole cards). I advised the player accordingly.
Jon I.
I agree that you do need to as you said it, "be hyper aggressive". Only problem, if your opponent is a good player, he will play his position and try to avoid putting too much money into a pot that he is quite possibly a dog to win. If you are first and you bet into him, he might (and should) simply call. If he is behind you, he might check, or if he does bet and you raise, he won't re-raise. thanks
set against a flush on 4th street(the turn).
normally you figure on 4 board cards + 2 cards in each hand=4 =8 52-8=44 cards are left unseen. 10 hurt and 34 are good. 34 to 10 = 3.4 to 1 favorite for the flush. or the set will win i in 4.4 times. everyone that plays poker needs to understand this simple thing.
Thanks, Ray. That was the exact odds computation I had given him.
Jon I.
I am fairly new to poker. In a 4/8 game (2/4 blinds) what are playable hands out of the small blind? Assuming unraised with 3 or 4 callers. I realize some of the automatic folds. I have problems with hands like Ax, T6s, 86s or other marginal hands from this position.
In unraised pots, being halfway in allows you to limp for half a bet on a vast array of garbage. Any pair is playable. For suited cards you can go all the way down to six-five suited, eight-six suited, and ten-seven suited. Offsuit you can go as low as nine-eight, jack-nine, and even queen-eight. The important thing is to not get trapped with this cheese after the flop. You want to catch a great flop or get out cheaply. Occasionally, if you have three or fewer opponents you can bet any piece of the board (middle pair, bottom pair, a draw) and hope that everyone folds. If you get called, you have some outs.
A time ago you said in a post that you have to play the SB the same as though you were on the button (Ciafonne's rule or something i believe). When I read your post now it seems a bit contradictonary to me. I wouldnt play 98o or J9 on the button for instance with 3-4 limpers, although I would play it from the SB with 3-4 limpers.
Could you plz explain to me when the rule applies and when you base your opinion on pot odds (because you're halfway in)?
Thanks
That rule applies to calling raises from the small blind not limping from the small blind. The rule is that if you would not cold-call a raise from the button then you should not call the raise from the small blind either.
If the BB wasn't going to raise I would play any 2 suited cards and any connectors 54 or greater. I would not play Ax because it is a trap hand. If you can't muck a pair on the flop you should fold a lot more often.
Just My Thoughts.
Derrick
I would play any suited 3 gapper , and Axs and Kxs.
I would not play J2s for a half of bet or any other high low combination except A or Kxs.
I am not questioning your strategy. It appears solid. Would you play T9o for half a bet with 4 callers?
Derrick
What is your EV against stupid fish?
I apologize if this has already been discussed
I am mostly an Internet player averaging about 2-3BB hour (2 handed). I sat down at a casino ring game yesterday waiting for a tournament to start. Maybe my thinking has been skewed by PP as to what constitutes a weak game, because I could not believe the quality of play.
These guys were not just fish they were stupid fish. Example, turn and river brought Q,Q giving me a runner runner set and I raise screaming I have a Q. I got 4-5 callers who had nothing. Simply unbelievable!
After the tourney, I sat in a 6-12 game that was as bad as the first. Guys would sit down, burn through a few hundred and a new fish would take his place to do the same thing.
I suffered through 4 huge bad beats and still ended the night positive.
Question – what kind of hourly rate can one expect from a game like this? Can I top my 2-3BB at PP? I am thinking of adding more live play based on this.
The only thing that sucked was that you could make zero moves which made the game kinda boring. On hand 3 I tried to isolate a fish with a 3 bet only to get 5 callers. That was the last move I made the entire night.
Unfortunately, like you said the problem with playing against many fish is that you will suffer very big bad beats, but you will make a large amount of money over all. I don't think over time you could top 2-3 BB / hour. This is a big number IMO.
IMO I find ring games much easier in the casino then online. If you get a loose passive game like you probably found you can probably approach 2-3 BB/hour. If the game becomes more aggressive or tighter, you have to deal with less hands per hour in the casino.
You are also correct that it is a much more mechanical game in the casino. Why make a move against a group that has no understanding... why isolate the fish when there are 4 fish that will follow...
Just My Thoughts,
Derrick
I think 2-3 BB/hr is a reasonable number for the game you're describing. I've been doing that fairly consistantly for the last 4 months. As for making a move, it can be done but you have to wait for the right moments. One of the requirements to making a move is that there must be some chance that you will win the pot right there. This will never happen against more than one or two opponents, you simply WILL get called. The right time are those rare occasions when you get heads up and can put your opponent on a draw (this is pretty easy against very weak players). Usually even fish will fold if they miss completely.
10-handed game, loose passive (3/6)
Next to UTG (NTU) calls, I raise with AQo, button, SB and BB call, as does NTU.
Flop: J Q 5 twotone.
Checked to NTU, who bets, I raise, button and SB call, BB folds, NTU calls.
Turn: 2 (third suit)
Checked to me, I bet, button raises, SB folds, NTU cold calls. There are 14 BB in the pot. I strongly suspect button has QJ, because preflop, he could call a raise with it (loose preflop), and the way he played it I could not figure an other hand, because the 2 could not have helped him, and with a big draw I think he would raise me on the flop. He might have AQ also (JJ and QQ would he probably 3-bet preflop with) . I suspect NTU to be on a draw. Now I think I have a pretty big problem, because I have about the odds to draw a 3 outer (the aces, if he has QJ), but the A of the twotone suit might not be an out, since SB could easily be on a flush draw.
What would you do?
Thanks.
Tough one... would button raise the turn with KQ or AQ? It is a tough decision because of the 3rd player in the pot. Heads up I would call this down, but because the 3rd player in the pot could have me beat as well, or could easily draw out on me... and I may be behind, I would probably fold. If the button plays tricky, I would still call this down with the extra person in the pot.
Derrick
The button has you either with Q-J or 5-5. If NTU has K-10 you're drawing dead. If he has a flush draw you have 2 outs. You don't have the pot odds to draw here and a fold is in order. In LL a raise on the turn is generally fairly reliable.
In general, I would fold when popped on the turn with a raiser and a cold-caller having only one pair even top pair, top kicker. You are frequently playing three outs and sometimes no outs. The only time I would stay with this hand is if I have noticed that my opponents occasionally do goofy things like waiting until the turn to raise with top pair or they like to raise on the turn with just a come hand (a flush-draw in this case).
To reiterate... man this is a tough one.
Ok... everyone who has posted a response thus far will probably disagree with me... but give me a chance. You really have a passable hand at this point. You raised up front which definitely indicates strength. No one at this point I believe can have any doubt about the strength of your hand. You even raised the flop with top pair top kicker. There's no reason to believe that anyone can beat what you're holding at this point with a dangerous flop out. If the button has a set (5-5 or J-J), he has to make it 3 bets to protect his hand. NTU has to have a Q to bet out on flop, nothing else suggests otherwise. Is button a big enough dunderhead to play motown? (J-5)
My one question is this... had you raised a lot with A-big (suited or unsuited) during this game and been caught a few times? If so, I might suspect the button is trying to test you to see if you have AK or something in that vein. If not, what do these players figure you for? You've invested $12 at this point and fired away on the turn ($6 more). In my mind, the least you could possibly have would be AQ. How about QQ or JJ? If I'm playing, I definitely find this a possibility (an unpleasant one for me). It's obvious that someone is drawing (at least SB). The only legit straight draw on the flop is K-10. Would somebody coldcall that in the blind (out of position)? For these reasons, I believe the play would be to reraise.
You'll find out real quick where you are. I find the odds of the button having the case Q to be long at best. Would he smooth call an overpair (AA or KK?) preflop and on the flop with a dangerous board? I don't think so. In addition, you probably get SB and BB to curse, grumble, and either make a crying call or fold leaving dead money in pot. If the button makes it 4 bets, then I'm pretty sure you're against a superior hand and can make a fresh determination. The option of folding would be pretty clear now.
If button just calls, you might be able just to lay down your hand or bet again for value on the end. It just depends on how you feel and how much control you have over the button. If the flush card comes you're definitely beat. How bout an A? If you took it to 3 bets on the turn, person who might have had K-10 might lay that down on the turn, giving you 3 more cards. Do the math, if you make it 3 bets on turn, it costs you the same amount to see the turn and river if the button will check the river.
One more question...How are you doing in this session? Are you up big? Up a little? Down? Table image has a lot to do with this play. If you pull this off and do have the best hand... these people will not mess with you and become predictable in their hands against you in future encounters. Thus, even though you're putting $30+ in and might not win, I think that in the near future (during that session) you will save $$$ when more passive players check their passable hands to you instead of bet, then you call. Even if you lose, these people will not push you around because they will remember this hand and cringe at the thought of putting in $$$ against you. I really would like some feedback on this. I hope it starts lots of discussion.
PS: I myself play in low limit hold em games (3-6, 4-8, and 6-12) and have used the play to my advantage more than once. Can't argue with results. :)
Fold. The button could also have 55 or even JJ, leaving you drawing dead.
Chris
Where I play the max bet is $5. Most games are 2-5 spread, and while I don't get to play a lot, I do OK. On weekends are some $5 games. 5 bet, 5 raise, period. Three raises except head to head, then no limit. Will these $5 games be played differently? Thanks in advance.
the two buck bet lets you limp in cheaper sometimes from late position wereas the 5 game will be faster and more aggressive. you will need better hands to play but will not very often fold for a raise where in the 2-5 you will quite often open for 2 and then fold.
The structure you describe is the same as the casinos here in Colorado.
I've never played the 5-5 games and I don't want to (not that I really want to play 2-5 either). As Ray points out, you can limp in with a lot of speculative hands in 2-5 whereas in 5-5 you have to pay too much for them up front. Furthermore, you can punish your opponents for limping in 2-5 pretty severely when you raise to 7 preflop.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
The 5/5 structure would promote playing more big cards and less suited hands. (Of course if it's suited and big that's an extra bonus). But you want to have a hand that will hit the flop fairly hard or that can win unimproved. I'm not sure as to what hands I would play in a game like this, AA-99, AK-ATs, AK-AJo, KQs-KJs, KQo maybe.
As the other posts stated you can play more speculative hands (suited connectors, small pairs etc.) in the 2-5 game but you still need to be fairly tight, and if many pots are raised preflop most of theese hands will have to hit the muck aswell.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Sincerly, Andreas
If you're in Colorado visit or call The Tattered Cover bookstore in Cherry Creek or Rocky Mountain Gaming on Kipling and Colfax and buy "Claiming Colorado," a good book on $2-5 hold 'em by G. Ed Conley, who posts here occasionally. I think you can also get it through Amazon.
And everyone's right: in $2-5 you can play a few more hands but still stay away from unsuited junk like 65o and be prepared to fold specultive hands to a $5 raise. The ubiquitous tendency to raise the max means that a lot of passive players won't raise preflop unless they're huge, and with some players this means AA/KK.
Thanks all, I am in Colorado and will try to get the book mentioned.As you might expect, a lot of getting run down by junk cards in the 2-5 game. Thought there might be a bit less of this in the5-5. I enjoy this site, it has definately improved my game.
I had a problem the other day at a club were there was collussion between two players, I played for a while used some tactics to my advantage but then a new player arrived at the table. I noticed that over 95% of his deals meant winning with monster hands such as Four of a Kind, Full House and Straight Flushes. He won over $600. My question is how do you stop someone who is cheating using culling and stacking methods? What defenses can you take?
nm
The only sane advice is to avoid the game.TL
Is this game in a public cardroom? I believe that most of the time, cheating in a public cardroom with security cameras and decent dealers and floorpeople is more perceived than real. I'm sure collusion takes place at times, but why would you knowingly continue to play in a game when you knew two people were actively colluding against you? And why wouldn't you notify the floorperson of the cheating? Also, stacking the deck to keep giving the same guy monster hands is pretty difficult to do, are you sure this wasn't just a run of good luck? If there was in fact stacking of the deck, again, why would you continue playing, and why wouldn't you notify the floor? The only defenses for cheating are to notify management and see that it stops and the offending players are banned, otherwise don't play there again.
dave in cali
loose, mainly passive 5/10 game. in cutoff position, hold 5/6 suited with 6 limpers. call. button calls. big blind raises. all call. call. button raises. big blind raises. all call. question one: is call a good or a bad thing? anyway, as am ahead and feeling good, i call. nine-handed. 36 small bets. flop is 10-6-5 unsuited. big blind bets. five calls. now what? i called. a raise probably right here but don't think anyone will fold. button raises. button is moody player who goes from tight to wild. big blind raises. big blind is young kid i feel is weak. three calls. my bottom two pair is not happy but calls. button caps. all call. at this point, there is so much in there, (60+ small bets) that am sure this is just a crap shoot and will need miracle to win but still feel good and will still be ahead no matter the outcome. turn is a 6. egad. checked to me. yet another question: now what? cannot figure anything out at this point so bet on general principal. button raises. two callers. i raise. button raises. all call. mind not working in any relevant way by now. river is 4. check to me. now what? 10-10 or 10-6 wins. am numb and bet. feel like lamb staked out for lion. several questions in this post. comments? results monday. thanks for reading. mr. e
Before the flop your call is OK. I really don't like all the raising and I may dump it rather than call the double hit back to me, but the pot is plenty big to call here.
In this pot your going to have to show down the best. It's that simple. There is a very good chance your bottom 2 are good here and I would be raising every chance I got. You have to try to protect a pot this size.
The turn doesn't change a lot but it blocks out the str8 draws. Fire again.
On the river I would check raise the button. The buttton will almost certainly raise any river bet possibly costing you calls if you lead out.
bet out on river and was called by button and blind. showed hand and they mucked. great result but played hand totally on automatic pilot. felt great but annoyed that was not able to reason after flop. thanks for post. mr. e
Online 2-4 game, it seems like the normal mixture of goofballs and decent players.
Anyway, I'm UTG and pick up Kc Kd, I raise and get 3 cold callers + BB.
Flop: 2h 2c 9h
BB checks and I bet. Decent player (DP) calls and the button raises. My thinking is that he might be raising a flushdraw or a 9, but the possibility of 99 worries me. I'm not to worried about him having a 2, what hands can you coldcall with that contains a 2? I 3 bet, DP calls two cold (smells like a flush draw), and button caps. I do an automatic call to atleast try to spike a king. DP calls.
Turn is a blank.
I check, DP checks and button bets.
Here's the thing I'm wondering about. I feel like I'm behind at this point, but I'm not sure. Thinking that the button might have 99. A 2 still seemed farfetched.
Fold/Call/Raise?
Anyway, I call as do DP.
River is another blank.
I check, DP checks, Btn bets.
Again, Fold/Call/Raise?
Thinking that being a calling station on the river is often correct I call. DP folds.
Button turns over Jc 2c and takes the pot.
The big question in this hand is the turn call. Can't make up my mind about that one. If the opponent is bad enough to play J2s to an UTG preflop raise he might be bad enough to bet his TT/JJ all the way. Had I known that he was this bad I probably would have folded the turn though, I just thought that noone would be stupid enough to coldcall with a hand containing a 2. My bad...
Sincerly, Andreas
First of all, he can't have had Jc2c, as the 2c fell on the flop. Were they suited at all?
I know it's sad to be knocked off AA and KK, and I think few people would play it differently than you did here (LL players, that is). Often it's better to play on an unpaired board, as you have outs against two pair, and have you noticed how LL players tend to go friggin' bananas with the 'combination' hands, of a straight draw and a pair in particular? Watch out for a 7-8-T flop, and check out the insane action.
I've recently begun to feel that when AA and KK are behind on the flop, they stay behind no matter what. If the board pairs on the turn or river, well then that is the opponents full, either with two pair or a flopped set. And of course you have situation's like these when you are BADLY behind from the start.
lars
They were suited, maybe it was the 2s that fell on the flop, the important thing about the flop was the two-flush and the pair.
I just couldn't put him on the set, my biggest mistake in this hand was to overestimate his abilities. Had the hand occured a while later in the session I would have geared down on the flop after his raise since I saw him make a lot of bad plays later.
I'm always amazed as to what hands the fish find good enough to coldcall with...
Sincerly, Andreas
You can't fold that hand unless you have a great read on the player (a difficult thing in internet poker). Check and call him down.
I found this online $2-4 hand to be quite amazing, as I collected 24 big bets with THE NUTS THE WHOLE WAY.
I pick up AA in early-mid position, and see a wonderful UTG raise. I cold call, hoping maybe for a three-bettor or three/four-way action for two bets, I usually limp/cold-call with aces only 1 in 20 or so. Some guy with only $6 left, raises all in. A few cold callers (five or six-way action, can't remember), I cap it.
Flop: A-6-4r. I bet out, next player raises, a two or three other player cold calls two (everybody wants a bite of this one). I three-bet it (mistake?), all call. Turn: Q, still no flush possibilites, but I hope someone maybe spiked a set of queens (not to unlikely here, I reckon). I can't remember the action too well after this, but the turn card came the only card that didn't make my hand a full, but yet still the nuts; a non-flush Eight.
I took down $93 (after paying a $3 rake), with the flop raisor (who called me all way in) showed A4.
I figured that made up for about five suck-outs. ;-)
lars
Considering your position on the raiser you might have waited for the turn to raise him. But still, nothing wrong with playing sets fast against not-so-good-players. Wouldn't it just have torn you apart knowing you gave the clown playing 35off a cheap card?
I've had some monster hands at 3-6 aswell, I had the nut straight against a twopair and a set. I lost it when the 169$ pot when river paired. :-(
Sincerly, Andreas
Great hand Lars,
The only cards that gave you the nuts here was another A or a 9 not an 8... You could have been beat by 5-7 on the river... Just to be picky...
Derrick
If this hand happened at paradise, I just might start putting someone on 5-7.
Thanks Derrick, I think it actually must've been a Nine then. I've had so many sets cracked in my relatively short Hold'em career that I'm desperately looking for what ways opponents can beat my hands on the turn and the river, esp. in family pots like these.
lars
10 handed, loose/passive, 1/2, PP game
UTG calls, early position (EP) player limps, so does middle position (MP) player. I'm just before the button with KQs and raise to buy the button. Small blind (SB) calls and so does everyone else.
Flop: 8 T 2 - twotone. Two of my suite. All check to me, I raise, UTG, EP and SB al call, MP folds.
Turn: K - no suite card. All check to me, I raise, all call.
River: 7 - All check to me, I think I have top pair with a nice kicker, so I bet again. SB raises, the rest folds, I call. SB shows K2o.
Should I play different against these passive players or is it just a bad beat?
I think your river bet for value is debatable here. I think you have a reasonable hand, but you are against 3 other opponents on the river. I would not bet a single pair for value here. Against 2 opponents I may bet, against one I would usually bet in this situation.
Just My Opinions,
Derrick
Just a bad beat. Your play was fine throughout.
Chris
Suppose you hold KQ in early position and limp. Several callers see the flop. It comes AAKr. You bet and everyone folds to the button who raises. You are getting, say, 5-1 pot odds. Now, since the odds of the button holding an ace are 22-1 is this alone enough reason to call to end? Do the actual pot odds make a difference here? what if they were 2-1?
Can you ever use the probability of an opponent having or not having a certain hand vs. pot odds as justification for calling, raising, or folding? Is this bad logic, because it seems like you would run into some fairly +EV situations using this reasoning.
That's what poker is!
A flaw in your reasoning is that you aren't adjusting odds based on the players actions, type of player, what are likely starting cards, etc. For some players, a raise would prove almost conclusively that they DO NOT have an ace, others just the opposite.
Excellent point. Although knowing the odds and calculating pot value is a must for any poker player worth his salt, it pales in comparison to your ability to read the game and the other players.
Why do you say the odds of him holding an ace are 22-1?
I guess that would be on the turn but: (2/46)/(44/46). There are 2 aces out of 46 unseen cards for a probability 2/46. Of course I'm assuming he doesn't have 4 aces. Is my math flawed (again?)...:)
Could you not assume that the "several callers" who seen the flop and then folded don't hold the Ace thereby reduding the number of unseen cards down from the original 46?
Good point.
That's part of it but the chances that he has an ace increase greatly because he raised you. You cannot say, " I have seen 5 cards, 2 of them are aces so the chance that my opponent holds an ace are 2 in 47". There are many hands he would fold to a bet here. It's similar to saying, " 4 opponenets folded so the probability that one of them folded an ace is 9%."
Whether you continue or not is player dependent. On the plus side he needs an ace to beat you right now. On the minus side the pot is small and it'll probably cost you 2 1/2 BB to find out.
ahem, again I'm wrong... the total number of hands is 1081 -> 47!/(2!*45!) the number of hands that contain an ace are (46*2)-1 for 91. So the probability (I think is) 91/1081 or just a tad under 11-1. I think this is right, but my question is still the same.
I believe that the whole premise for this thread is flawed. In poker you must never make a decision based on the odds that a specific player was dealt a specific hand, as this information is irrelevant (an exception to this might be if you knew for certain that the probability was zero, as you had already seen the cards he is trying to represent, or if there were 3 same-ranked cards on the board you could be fairly certain he didn't have the fourth). The way to make a decision in this situation is to figure the odds that the player would have a certain hand based on his betting practices. As another person has already said, against some people I would fold to the raise, as they would not make such a play without holding an ace. Against others, I might re-reraise, because I'm pretty sure that they would raise with a king. I hope my reasoning and explanation were not too convoluted.
-MD
You are not dealing with random probability but with conditional probability. Given the conditions that the button paid money to take a flop and that he raised a flop bet after seeing the flop means that the likelihood of him having an ace is much higher than a random probability calculation would indicate. People enamored with computer simulations make the same mistake.
The most famous example is in a book, yet to be published, by Gary Carson entitled "The Complete Book of Hold'em Poker". In Chapter 29, "Playing The Draw", a situation is discussed involving a hand that Mason Malmuth played. Mason has 9s-7s on the button and seven players take a flop which is: 8s-7h-4s. Five players pay 3 bets each to see the turn card which is: Ks. It is bet and called to Mason. Carson thinks Mason should raise because Mason has a flush. Mason was worried that someone else may have a bigger flush. Carson dismisses this possibility and believes that the chances of Mason's hand being good are about 10-to-1. But Carson is mistaken. Given the condition that 5 players paid 3 bets each to take off a card when a two-flush flops means that it is quite likely someone else is on a flush-draw. Again, conditional probability is operating here and not random probability. I would expect Mason's hand to be a loser most of the time under these conditions. He has to stay because of the size of the pot but raising would be insane.
10-handed 3/6 game. Game is generally loose/passive.
I'm in EP with AcAd. UTG limps, I raise, both blinds call, as does UTG.
Flop: Qh 3h 9s
Checked to me, I bet, SB check-raises, rest fold, I re-raise, SB caps, I call.
Turn: Qc
SB bets out, I fold.
I see this as a pretty clear fold, although I had notes on SB that he could be tricky, and was a decent player generally. The only thing he could cap in my opinion that I can beat is a big draw like ThJh, but I think a set or good queen is much more likely.
Comments?
Thanks
In general, I think your play is correct but you really need to know your opponent here. If he has shown any history at all of pounding the pot on a come hand, then you need to consider staying with him.
$8-$16 game at the Bellagio:
A new player who looked to be in his low 30s sat down in my game and he had that “I think I’m a good player” look about him. He limped in early position, everyone folded between us, and I raised with TT. The blinds folded and the limper called. The flop came Q94, no flush. He bet and it was my instinct to raise, so I did. He called. The turn was a 6. He checked and I checked. The river came a 7 with no possibility of a flush. He bet again and I called – beating his A4s.
A losing play based on what I knew about my opponent, or not?
You don't know anything about this player at all, so you can't really make a judgment about a losing play based on his look. Good read on his physical appearance, it gave you confidence to play.
I like the raise with TT, obviously you want either lots of company (6+ players) or a heads up situation, which you got for yourself by chasing the blinds. You have position and a premium hand to boot.
The flop raise is mandatory heads up, you cannot show weakness or cringe in case he flopped the Q. Calling the flop is not an option because that's a weak play too after your preflop raise. Choices are either to fold (reluctantly) or raise. I like your play here, it's aggressive and puts him on the defensive. You can represent a number of different hands here. Also, your TT beats anything on board but a Q, you beat middle and bottom pair. If he plays either of these, he'd drawing to five outs max in a heads up pot. The odds aren't there for him to play.
As much as I like your play on the flop, I groan at your choice on the turn (aaaaahhhhh). It's just criminal to give him a free card at this point... especially if he is either drawing or playing middle or bottom pair. The 6 obviously doesn't help him at all. If he has a Q (which he doesn't), he either checks and calls or check-raises you to see what you've got. If he check-raises here, no problem, you fold and it costs you a big bet. If you bet and he calls, you need to read him again. Did he fidget in his chair or make a face when he called or did he put his bet in with confidence? Just watching him might give you enough info to make the correct decision on the river.
Again, I feel the check on the turn gave him hope. You exposed yourself to a possible bluff situation. He bets into you again on the river hoping you're playing with AK or something like that and have given up. Kudos to him for making an aggressive play which maxes his chance to win the pot. Lucky for you that you had a wired pair for the easy call.
Good pot, my friend :) In sum, my one piece of advice is this. If you have a passable hand in this situation again, take my advice and fire again on the turn. If you fire again after the flop raise, he's gotta be thinking that he's beat, even if he has a Q. Remember, he doesn't know you from Adam either. It's a very rare person who would take a shot at an unknown opponent. He might even lay a Q down. This play also will enhance your table image considerably as a person who will not be easily bluffed. People will play more straightforward against you and that's a big advantage in future expectation.
By firing again on the turn, you make decisions for you easy and your opponent's difficult. If he check-calls in this situation, you can always check it down on the end and see if you have the best hand. Either way, it costs you the same amount of $$. Try it, I think you'll see that you'll win more of these heads-up confrontations.
Mike,
Excellent post & ideas. I generally agree with you and I'm more of the mind that betting the turn is usually the best play though I can see that checking sometimes might fit a certain playing style or image that can be at times be advantageous.
10-handed game, I'm on the button with AJo.
Folded to MP who limps in, then folded to me, I raise, trying to get it heads up, but both blinds call, as does limper.
Flop: 7 A 2 twotone
Checked to me, I bet, SB check-raises, BB, MP fold, I 3-bet, SB calls. SB just sat down, so I know nothing about him.
Turn: K (third suit)
SB checks, I bet, SB check-raises, I fold.
Comments?
Thanks
2 check-raises from any "sane individual" should tell you that your hand is no good. Nice fold :)
Obviously, you learned something right away... the SB is a good player who you don't want to mess with. Gotta put him on AK on turn check-raise. Kudos to him for just smooth-calling your 3 bet so that you bet the turn for him.
Did he show or just muck?
.
I think three betting on the flop even with top pair, good kicker is overplaying your hand. I know your opponent was in the small blind, but he did call your raise so he has a decent hand. When a preflop raiser gets check-raised on an ace-high flop, I think alarm bells should go off in your head. I would just call. If he checks the turn, I would bet and then fold if he check-raises me again.
Jim,
what do you think about checking the turn, and then check/calling the river? It would cost the same as betting and folding to a second check raise, a lot of bets went in on the flop, and I dont think that anyone who is going to check raise and call on the flop is going anywhere on the turn, and if I have a value bet after this action, it's pretty thin.
Or is checking behind him on the turn too weak?
good luck, bt.
That line of play definitely prevents you from ever throwing away the best hand. But when you check it back on the turn you are telling him that you are afraid and you are giving him a free card if his hand is worse than yours. By betting the turn after he checks, you might get AQ to fold but this is unlikely. If he is playing a weaker ace you are charging him to play his three outer and you prevent suckouts when he decides to fold.
He has given you every reason TO be afraid of him. Do you think he check-raised with a worse A than AJ? I guess it's posible he could have A-10 or Ax but I think it is much more likely that the SB has made a set or has AK. I would check behind him on the turn then call on the river. If he check-raised with only the intent of getting a free card on the turn then so be it, I would make a mistake here. But much more often than not you are losing badly.
Been very busy wtih a couple of major projects the past month, which has put a crimp in my 2+2 posting time and live play as well. I have managed to squeeze in a few hours of online play at PP and this hand came up this morning over breakfast.
3-6 HE. 72o in the BB. Waiting for someone to raise so I can go warm up my coffee. Nope, three limpers, SB folds.
Flop comes down 7d-3h-2d. I want to get this over ASAP, so I bet out. To my surprise, first limper from middle position raises. Fold, Fold, I re-raise. He just calls.
Turn card is 7s. Your play.
Now I'm thinking that he's probably on a draw of some sort, likely a flush. At least that's my first reaction. What hand could he have that he would now raise for value with that he wouldn't raise with first in after five people have folded in front of him? Pocket pair bigger than 7's? Not likely. Two big overcards? Not likely. Pocket 3's or 2's? He shouldn't have been limping first in with those to begin with, right? If he is, he's drawing virtually dead anyway, plus I am now going to get good action from him. If I do bet out now, and he does have the under full, I will be able to 3-bet. But I just don't think this is the most likely holding, especially because I also hold one of the 2's.
So I'm putting this guy on maybe something like Th-9h as a possible holding. In any event, right or wrong, I decide to check the turn, hoping to either A) get in a check-raise right here, right now, or B) give him a free card drawing dead. Little risk, and even though he might check behind me, I might get a call on the river if he thinks I'm trying to steal.
River is an offsuit 8. I bet, he raises!
Re-raise, or just call?
My actions at this point, and the Results tomorrow morning. All comments gratefully accepted.
Re-read the post after it went up, and I didn't clarify the fact that after I checked on the turn, the other player also checked behind me. Sorry for the confusion.
Hi Dunc!
When you get a chance please email me your results for April. Thanks!
I haven't forgotten about you Jim, but I've just been swamped lately at work, and have a few results to enter. Hardly played at all last half of the month.
I have a big Media Day today for the Junior golf Tour that we run, so I won't likely get back to you until late tonight or tomorrow. Ciao.
Respect his pocket 8's and call.
show him the same 7 twice very trickily and bet your "quads".
Ok im being stupid
Hmmm... This is a tough one
Do you think the case 7 could be out with your limper friend? At this point, I think it a definite possibility. In low limit like this, maybe 7-paint or ace suited is a possibility. When you bet out, maybe he raised to move overcards and draws behind him to get it heads up. Lots of cards can come on the turn that could put him behind with multiple players involved, so he's in a position to protect his hand.
The turn 7 has me intrigued. When you bet out on the flop from your position, this tells me (if I don't know your hand) at very least 7-big kicker... more likely 2 pair, but which 2 pair?? Your trap check on the turn makes him think you're afraid of the 7 pairing on board, so he checks behind you so that you'll stay in the hand and bet the river. His check behind you rules out a set because he needs to bet at this point to protect his hand.
Now, with the river, I think he takes advantage of this thought and raises with what he thinks is a better 7. I gotta rule out pocket 8s here because he needs either a lot more players preflop to just limp or he needs to get the pot heads up preflop and hope they'll stand up. Calling first in with pocket 8s is just a weak play. He better be sure that lots more players are coming.
Given all this info with no straight or flush possibility, I think you have to reraise here with the best hand. I'll be curious to see the results.
Well, I couldn't believe this guy had the NERVE to raise my nice little shack, and I just couldn't control the twitch in my trigger finger. I re-raised, he capped, and showed me Eric Lindros (88). Doh!
If I bet out on the turn, do you think he calls? I guess we'll never know. Is it just me, or do these types of hands just SEEM to show up more on PP than in live games? Oh, the paranoia sets in.
Well, I am surprised that he checked the turn behind you with 88...take note of this when you wnat a free card from this guy and you are out of position i.e. perhaps you can checkraise him with a flush draw when out of position and still get a free card on the turn.
The river 3 bet is fine precisely because I wouldn't expect him to check 87 or 88 on the turn after you checked.
Given the previous action I think it's perfectly reasonable for him to check the turn. He got REraised on the flop so he has to give Mr. Dunc credit for at least top pair. Now when the turn comes and pairs the board MP is really in trouble, and he knows it. I think a bet here could very well have won it given his check. Of course it's all very easy to say after you read the results :) (I must admit that I would have reraised too)
I was playing no limit last week, and there were ten players. Anyway... We started to play and after half an hour I received two Cowboys. I was the first to bet $100. Everyone folded except the third player to my left he raised to $400, I reraised to $800 then he reraised all his money which was about $4500. What should I do?
First, post this in the high stakes forum.
Then, dump those kings, unless there is some chance he has AK or worse, not the AA he's representing.
If you dump them, dump them FACE DOWN. Do not let other players see you making this laydown, or you will forever be reraised BTF with anything.
I think Easy E is right on this one, even though it would be a difficult laydown....
Dave in Cali
You should fold because your opponent has AA.
Moderately tough 3-6 game, I'm second to act preflop. The game is 7 handed, 2 calling stations directly to my left, solid player on the button, loose semi-aggressive player in SB, loose aggressive player in BB (had been bragging about winning two tournaments recently, and had raised a live straddle with 43o and won on the showdown with a pair of fours), rockish player UTG.
I've folded about 20 hands in a row (all trash) not counting unraised blinds. I'm down to my last $21.
UTG folds, I look down to find A10d. I raise, all fold to SB who calls, BB calls. 3 players.
Flop: 9d 2h 5d
Ok, pretty good flop for me. 4 to the nut flush plus two over cards.
Check to me, I bet, SB calls, BB raises. I think he's testing me since I haven't played any hands recently. He has played hands like Axo, and 43o as mentioned above, but has also won some pots with solid play and solid cards. I think he could have anything from a set to a lower flush draw to nothing at all. Most likely he has something like A9o. I reraise (at this point I know I'm going to go all in, no point in holding back now), both call. SB must be on some sort of draw, maybe a smaller flush or a gutshot.
Turn: 9d 2h 5d (Qc)
Check to me, I bet 6 all in. Both call.
River: 9d 2h 5d Qc (Ks)
Both check to each other (I'm all in already).
Results to follow.
Comments on my play? How should I have played this if I had not been short stacked? Thanks.
I flip over my A10d, at this point I know I must be beat. BB turns over 85c, small blind mucks. BB takes down the pot with a pair of fives and I'm busted. (Unless SB had a 2 I had him beat).
Assuming I had not been all in, I think I would have bet the river. On busted draws like this, what is the correct play against loose players?
Same moderately tough 3-6 game as I described in my previous post "A10d in EP."
I am in BB, calling station to my left limps, 2 or 3 other limpers, SB folds, I look down to find J10s. I check.
Flop: Jd 10c 5c
I bet out to charge any flush draws. Calling station calls, maybe one other caller.
Turn: Jd 10c 5c (Qs)
I bet again, calling station calls. Ok, looks like he's on a flush draw. At this point it's heads up (I think).
River: Jd 10c 5c Qs (7s)
Good, no club. I bet again, sure that I've won. Calling station calls (big surprise), I show my two pair, he shows 89c and takes down the pot. As he was stacking his chips he said he was worried about me having AK (despite no raise preflop).
Did I overplay my hand with a possible straight on the board, or was I lucky that I didn't get raised on the turn and/or river?
Comments on my play?
Thanks.
I would probably play it the same way, maybe try to checkraise the flop depending on who is likely (if anyone). The river bet is slim, but since you say he's a callingstation and not a total rock I would bet it for value here hoping that i'd get a call from AJ or AT.
Callingstation played it very badly IMO, a turn raise is a nobrainer imo, and even if he's behind AK he still has outs. So you probably should be glad you weren't raised.
Sincerly, Andreas
No, you didn't overplay your hand. I would have bet out here as well. Consider yourself lucky for not being raised. I would have raised the flop, and you would have reraised. I would have raised the turn and bet the river on you...
Derrick
Another Paradise Poker fairytale I'm afraid...Online $3/6, I'm getting the feeling that as long as the bets are made, the action will follow, no matter what the pocket cards are like. Meant to be is probably a good description?
I hold KQo in cut-off in a quite loose $3/6 10 handed game. Surprisingly everyone folds to me, I bring it in for a raise, and it's folded to BB who re-raise. Ouch. Although BB (and quite frankly most players at this table) had been over-playing their "good, not excellent" hands a bit, I get the feeling I'm trailing badly here and need a real good flop...like:
Ad-Jh-Th. That's how the flop came down. BB bets out, I just call, waiting to pop him on the turn.
Turn card: 9d. BB bets out, I raise, he just calls.
River: 4c, making the board Ad-Jh-Th-9d-4c. I'm still holding the nuts. BB checks to me, I bet, BB calls. I show my straight, he shows...
Results to follow.
lars
He held JdTd. Flopped two pair and a backdoor, caught the flush draw on the turn.
What I find amazing is: 1) I think this is the first time I've been three-betted by JTs (except for a button raise in family pots and so on, but then you understand that there may be other reasons for raising than having the best hand pre-flop). How typical is it that this hand will hit two pair AND a flush draw before the river? What are the chances of that happening btw?
2) That he didn't give me more action on the turn. The more I think about it, it may have been the right move from his side, but I just can't believe he resisted it. We took the flop heads-up for crying out loud. Two pair and the flush draw. Who would three-bet and who would just call a turn card raise in this spot (reminder of the Ad-Jh-Th-9d board).
lars
Hi all:
I know I haven't posted in quite a while, but I'm hoping to get some advice on what has started out as a horrible poker year for me. In return I'll spare you any bad beat stories that us LL players are famous for.
Once a month I get to head down to IL/IN to play for 11 hours on a Sunday. I've played for two years now, read all the books, developed my style (frankly, pretty tight and straightforward since I play solely below 5-10). At the beginning of this year I had accumulated about 250 hours and built my bankroll from $500 to about $1800.
I have lost every session this year. Heh, all 5 of them. But they include two of my biggest losses ever including the $334 hit I took yesterday at Harrah's 4-8HE which now leaves my BR at about $1K.
I don't believe I've deviated from a solid game. I feel the games are "better" than ever (I switched from Hollywood to Harrah's at the end of last year because of the action level). I don't tilt.. ok I don't tilt enough to change my play (but yesterday I'll admit I had accumulated enough frustration to wonder what it would be like to rip cards in half).
Now, noone reading this has probably seen me play. So I don't expect you to analyze my game. What I want to know is what do you do when your in an extended slump and running bad?
I'm most concerned that my confidence will erode and leave me a miserable weak-tight player. (See additional post). At the beginning of the year I really felt that I was one winning session away from dipping my toes into a 10-20 game... now I'm just looking for a way to get back to beating the 4-8 game.
So...
1) What do you do when you're running bad for an extended period?
2) Harrah's has what seems to be a wonderfully loose O8 game which I've sat in waiting for HE. If my goal is to build the BR (no matter how boring the game) should I be sitting there instead?
3) Rounder/SPM/other IL/IN players: Am I wrong here on Harrah's? Should I go back to the 5-10 at Hollywood?
Sigh.. Thanks for any thoughts, I think I really just needed to vent to someone.
Michael
Be the flop... See the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
My answers to two of your questions:
1. What do you do when you are running bad?
Definitely step down in limit. With a $1000 bankroll, don't play any higher than $4-$8 and even look for a $3-$6 game. Tighten up considerably preflop. Don't play marginal hands. Avoid games that are aggressive with a lot of preflop raising. Once the flop comes be sure you are adjusting your play for the number of opponents and the texture of the board. Write down hands. Post hands for comment.
The biggest single reason players quit poker is not because they go broke. It is because they hit an extended losing streak and decide that the game is no fun anymore.
2. Should you play in a loose O8 game instead of HE?
Low limit Omaha-8 or better is a painfully slow game. You are lucky to get in 20 hands per hour since it takes the dealer and the players an eternity to figure out what everyone has at showdown. Too much time for only one half of a pot. I would avoid this game.
I fully agree on low limit O-8. I am familiar with the game and can definitely beat it, but it is just no fun, and it is too darn slow to make it worth the while. I feel that my expectation at holdem (or stud when I can find it) is so much better that O-8 is virtually never worth playing in, unless I am simply waiting for a holdem seat to open up.
I agree with the rest of your post too. Packerfan should play 3-6 for a while and play tight, avoid playing high variance hands more than usual, and try to build up confidence as well as bankroll before stepping up again.
dave in cali
Packerfan CheeseHead:)
"Once a month I get to head down to IL/IN to play for 11 hours on a Sunday."
There are 29 to 30 days other than that day you play. Do you play on-line (even if it's play money), TTH, do you read poker magazines, do you analyze your results, do you write down what hands your losing with and analyze them, the ones you win. There's more to poker than just playing once a month. You have to be involved with it reading, analyzing, studying, etc. Maybe 11 hours is not the optimum amount of time for you to play. It may have worked in the past but now may be 4 hours. Your painting yourself into a corner that mite not work for you anymore. Think about time spent playing, are you taking breaks every 2 hours or so. You have to do the work to get yourself out of this situation. By analyzing yourself you will become a better player.
Good Luck Mike
paul
Using TTHE can be a great way to practice when you can't get to the tables. It must be used cautiously, but it can keep your thinking processes sharp while you are waiting to play again. I am writing an essay with another poster concerning our opinions on how to best use TTHE. When it is ready, I will post it here for comments and review.
I agree with Paul as to the other ways you can sharpen your game when you are not at the table.
Dave in Cali
I find that I need to step away - some times for a few days - and analyze my play. Specifically, where am I losing money that I shouldn't lose?
I had myself to a point where I never seemed to leave the cardroom ahead - whenever I'd get ahead, I'd start playing too loose - or I wouldn't adjust to changing game conditions.
Reviewing HPFAP, evaluating hands that I have played, reading some new material (E.g. Super/System), playing tournaments, etc. are all ways that I have used to improve my game.
Today, when my AA got cracked by a player with 29h who cold called my opening raise - I didn't get upset. I know that in the long run, I want this guy in my game. He's got a story but I'm growing a bankroll - and that stuff happens in the games I play.
My game has become very tight-agressive and I have been grinding out a new bankroll at 6/12.
Side note on TTHE: The Turbo Texas Hold'em game has it's place, but I recommend being careful with it - it is too easy to quickly run through hands picking up bad habits that can become ingrained thus losing it's value as a learning tool. I have to slow the game down, try to put players on hands, weigh each of their possible hands and select my play accordingly. If you only get to play once a month I would definitely recommend it.
Howdy Packerfan:)
I know that it's really tough during a losing streak to remain objective about your game. Here's a couple of suggestions that might help you besides the other fine posts from our friends:
1) If you have a card playing buddy who plays well and knows the game, have him/her sweat you for a period of time (2-3 hours). Have him/her take some notes about what you did well, and not so well. At your first break, go have something to eat and discuss the results. If upon review your tendencies look to be detrimental to your image and bankroll, then quit and go home for the day. I am fortunate enough to have a couple people to depend on for this tune-up. I find that they can see a lot of my mistakes by sitting outside of the game instead of in it.
2) All you can do is make the correct decisions based on the circumstances. If you do the correct thing and your braindead opponents smack you with the miracle card in the deck, it's dumb luck. I'd rather play well and lose than play badly and win. If you play well, statistics and averages will more than catch up and reward you the $$$ that you deserve eventually. Once you wander off the road of solid play, it becomes very difficult to recover and make it back. Bad habits will creep into every facet of your game: habits like fear, tentativeness, and tilt. Don't give into that dark side of poker. 95% of people who play poker are losers, 5% are the winners. You have a solid game, be one of those lucky 5%.
I notice that you only play once a month, and that day you play for 11 hours. Obviously you enjoy the game, but an 11 hour session is pretty brutal. Maybe instead of looking at a time limit, concentrate more on your plays and the results. There's nothing wrong with playing only an hour and leaving with $250. Sure you might feel cheated about playing time, but what's more important? Look for that time when you feel that you're at a high point. If you start sliding, then leave. To me, nothing is worse than getting up $150-$200, then giving it all back and going in the hole.
Until next time, hope this message/pep talk helps. Keep plugging away.
>) All you can do is make the correct decisions based >on the circumstances. If you do the correct thing and >your braindead opponents smack you with the miracle >card in the deck, it's dumb LUCK. I'd rather play >well and lose than play badly and win. If you play >well, statistics and averages will more than catch up >and reward you the $$$ that you deserve eventually. >Once you wander off the road of solid play, it >becomes very difficult to recover and make it back. >Bad habits will creep into every facet of your game: >habits like fear, tentativeness, and tilt. Don't give >into that dark side of poker. 95% of people who play >poker are losers, 5% are the winners. You have a >solid game, be one of those LUCKY 5%.
Poker is NOT luck, analyizing players is science not luck, odds are math not luck, if it's 100-1 you're going to lose once in the long run. (Just hurts when you do 8-)) Unless you hold the absolute nuts, any two cards can suck out, the odds say they will, accept it and move on. A billion to one odds is NOT the nuts (just an easy raise). Letting luck seep into your thinking is an easy way to "wander off the road of solid play". Play tight/aggressive and for the long run.
Stan
Hi Stan,
Thanx for the post. I do agree with the fact that over the long run, poker becomes a skill-oriented game as fluctuations for everyone average out.
However, I believe luck does play a part in short term gain/loss, especially in the low limit theatre. The higher the limit, the less luck has an effect on overall gain/loss.
We use mathematics to assess the possibilities of our hands holding up or improving. Many winning players can calculate odds, percentages and number of outs on the spot, myself included. However, there are some players who don't use mathematics to help them at the table, short of them knowing that there are 52 cards in a deck, 4 suits, 4 of each rank... and so on. Their calculations are sometimes based on the premise that there's a card in the deck that can really make my hand... so I call. I know there's a King of Spades in there somewhere...
These are the same people who shun the knowledge that has been made available to the gambling public. They would rather trust their own judgment. Some people are just green beginners while others have been playing for 30+ years. While the former may not know any better, the latter have made a conscious choice. There are no odds or mathematics for these "calling stations", just positive or negative results based on the random distribution of cards during a particular session. In other words, luck.
You know these people as well as I do, Stan. They are the ones who make the miracle hands with long odds as you and I sit there. Here comes the perfect card and they hoot and tell of other small miracles as they rake in our monster pot. Then they smile at you and tell you "I had a feeling that King of Spades was comin'" And we smile back, thinking to ourselves of the miserable odds he was getting to draw to that one out.
You might not ever see or play with this person again, but his decision has an effect on your long run fluctuation. The only thing we have contributed is a short term gain of which we will never recoup from him personally, even though we know the odds are stacked heavily in our favor. And his short term gain came directly from the random appearance of that card.
I hope this gives some further clarification of what I was trying to get at. I re-read my original post and definitely understand where you're coming from. I'll anxiously wait for your response.
Until then, play well.
Mike
I whole heartly agree "calling stations" can hit the long odds and drive us to TILT (very bad thing 8-)). My point was for "us" the 5% not to lose sight of the long run. I love playing against "calling stations", I know I can make money against them in the long run. I actually like playing low limit 2-4 or 3-6 against these crazy manaics, calling stations, "any two cards can win", gamblers, home gamers......etc. I play tight and aggressive and am satisified with about 2-3 BB/hr profit. (IT'S FUN) I've seen loads of 4-9o winners and raisers with A-4o dominated, but it's NOT luck, since no matter how long the odds (a gilzillion to one) the one will pay off once in a while. If you're going to play in the 5% all you say is "shuffle and deal" and forget the suck out, stick with your own game.
Stan
the harrah's 4/8 games are the easiest, weakest losse-passive games anyone could ever hope for.
one might not be able to beat the rake though.
Last night 4-8HE, I down about $300 at this point (see other post). About 9 hours in I finally see AA, on the button no less!
6 limpers to me. I should raise.. but I'm horribly stuck and noone will go away anyway, so I limp and the blinds come and 9 of us see the flop of
3,3,6 two suited
SB (seemingly new to HE) bets, 2 callers and the cutoff now raises (no I know he doesn't have a three.. I figure an overpair or flush draw).
So.. re-raise or fold? As you quickly ponder this BTW, the SB is reaching for her chips... enough to re-raise.
I folded. Figuring I was beat already with only two outs and likely to be beat by one of those four players if a flush or straight card came on the turn or river.
SB and everyone just called.
Turn J. SB bets all call. River 8. SB bets gets one caller...
AND SHOWS DOWN Q8o for a rivered two pair. Caller had a six and the SB takes it down, and I take a walk..
If I were still winning consistenly I'd laugh this off and thank the heavens for games like this. But since I"m having my a** handed to me now, I'm concerned about becoming weak-tight.
Comments?
Michael
Be the flop... See the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
You say in your other post that you don't think your losing streak is affecting your play, and then you limp on the button with AA?
Don't think of raising with AA to limit the field. Think of raising with AA to value bet. You have the best hand, after all, right?
nm.
You definitely got away from good poker strategy, probably because you were losing. If the frustration of a poor session begins to make you play like this, you should definitely take a break or perhaps the rest of the night off. There are always more games another day.
Mason:
Thanks for the post, but I'd appreciate it if you elaborated.
I'm assuming that the pre-flop play is the mistake you're referring to in "play like this".
That being said, in a "nofoldem" type of game with a board of 336 two suited facing a bet by the sb, 2 callers and a raiser, was my fold really that bad?
One things for sure though, I should post more hands for input and other's perspective.
Thanks again.
Michael
If you won't raise with AA...what will you raise with?? AA will win MORE than it's fair share regardless of how many are in the pot...this is where you make money in holdem RAISE< RAISE< RAISE!!! p.s. Same with KK..... To call is to die a slow death... I would rather fold.
when someone reaches for their chips, it usually means they are trying to discourage people from raising. this is especially true if they are weak/average players. (you said SB seemed new to HE).
when someone reaches for their chips, RAISE!!!! they'll fold more often than re-raise.
btw, i'm sort of in the same boat as you. i've lost 5/6 times playing (3 different home games), because i've been pulling bad cards. last game, i could really see it begin to affect my play - ie. weak, tight. example: pineapple 8 game, flop comes 3-8-Q. i have Q-8 and am button. check..bet..i call. other player folds. turn is a 2. i immediately offer to split pot w/ other player. he reluctantly agrees & turns over Q-3. normally, i'd be pumping the pot.
i'm sitting out for a while...
good luck...
tootight
Without any particular help from books (unwise?), I am in a process of improving my game. One of the areas I've been looking to improve, I my pre-flop game, previously it had been a tight selection of cards I chose to play, but I also played all of these under most conditions (ie, cold-calling with AJ, limping with ATo UTG and the like).
I've now begun throwing AJo if I'm not in button and there's a few limpers to me (I'm also folding it UTG and next to UTG, usually).
How should this decision affect my EV? I think it may be a slightly profitable hand in a spot of two limpers to me sitting in for instance cut-off position, but I think it's so close that it could be a winner or a loser depending on my post-flop play. I also think throwing away such a hand decreases my variance pretty much.
Opinions anyone?
lars
It would have to be an awfully tight, passive game to justify folding AJo on the button after a "few" limpers. The conventional wisdom with the lower trouble hands (that is, worse than AJ) is to raise bad players and fold to tight (or ordinarily tight) limpers. But you almost always want to play AJo for one bet, especially if the limpers would raise with AQ/JJ and above, the only hands you should be worried about. You can also limp early with it, and raise early, if the chance of stealing is high or if no more than a few will call with weaker hands (you don't want to play it for 2 bets against the field, but with one or two players never folding it's worth a raise). It's in the tough games where you'll get raised and outplayed that you need to dump it 1 or 2 seats left of the bb.
I think it is right to fold ace-jack offsuit rather than cold-call a legitimate raise (as opposed to a steal-raise or an open raise from middle position where the player may be raising light).
But you are making a serious mistake when you dump ace-jack offsuit in the face of limpers. Especially limpers in a low limit game. If no one can raise then you can rule out AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK, and even AQ in many cases. This means that if an ace flops, your jack kicker is probably boss beating out all the weaker aces low limit players like to limp with. You will get richly rewarded when you have another limper outkicked since he will be making crying calls all the way to the river on only three outs. When you flop a top pair of jacks of course your kicker is boss but also it is very unlikely that anyone has an overpair since no one raised preflop. Finally, there are a lot of situations where no one makes anything, not even a pair. When this happens, your ace-high with a jack kicker will usually get the cheese. This is why ace-jack offsuit is a better hand than king-queen offsuit despite what all the books say.
The looser the game, the more you should want to play ace-jack offsuit and the more you should be raising with ace-queen offsuit. In loose, low limit games you will find these guys limping in with all manner foul holding. Any ace, any king, any two suited cards, any two connecting cards, any pair, etc. Ace-jack offsuit will win more than its fair share of pots against a typical collection of garbage such as this.
A 5/10 online game. I am in late/middle position. There are 2 other relevant players:
1: Middle position player (MP) who is 2 seats to my right. He is aggressive and I have seen him raise lots of hands preflop. He hasn't any down so I can't tell for sure, but statistically he seems to be a loose raiser, I think.
2: A weak player (WP) is in late position. He's too loose/passive, but he's not a total idiot. I haven't seen
him show down garbage.
All fold to MP, who open-raises. It's folded to me. I have AQo. I decide to 3 bet to isolate (a separate question is whether or not this is wrong). WP calls 3 cold.
Flop is 5c 7h 8h. I hold Qh.
MP bets out. I think with this large of a pot and 2 overcards, I can't fold this. I call. WP calls.
Turn: Kh (board 5c 7h 8h Kh).
MP bets out. I raise. Is this a good semibluff?
I'm thinking that I have a 2nd nut flush draw, plus aces and maybe queens for outs. That king is a scary card to my opponents, especially considering I 3 bet preflop. The pot is large and any possibility of winning it now is worth the risk. I will post results later.
It is not a bad semibluff but I would not make it because there is a third player in the hand who called three bets cold preflop. When the king turns up, this can easily touch many hands he could be calling with. You have to believe that when you semibluff, you can win the pot outright a significant percentage of the time and don't always have to make a hand. With a third player in the pot who is marked with a good hand, this becomes very unlikely. I would call and not raise.
Thanks for your response, Jim.
The 3rd player in called the turn raise, and the mid position opponent on my right folds. I of course am ready to check-fold the river unless I hit one of the outs.
The river is an offsuit 3, a total blank. Both of us check the river, and the other guys shows down 97o to take the pot with a pair of 7s. The MP player claimed I made him lay down the winner. It's not really any consolation that I half succeeded in my play.
It's clearly wrong to try to bluff this guy in the future, but up until that point he hadn't shown down any utter trash, so I don't feel like I walked blindly into this one. The one bonus here of course is that I now know this guy cannot lay a pair down, and a call doesn't mean any sort of hand.
Loose passive 6-12 game.
When is it ok to call with suited connectors? I generally throw away 67suited and lower. If there are several callers and I am in late position I will often play 89s, 910s, 10Js and 10Jo.
I think this is OK, but I am wondering about I when get these in an early position in a game where 5+ players routinely see the flop. Top that with, if there is a raise - every player will still call. These are generally easy hands to get away from - although I have been burned by bigger flushes.
If there are less than 5 callers I also throw them away unless I sense a steal opportunity.
Any comments would be appreciated - I am mostly wondering if I am costing myself income over the long run.
I'm thinking that the value difference between 98s and 54s just isn't that much. In fact, I think there are some reasons why 54s is more valuable. First, you are less likely to be counterfeited by the higher straight. Second, if you get two pair or trips, players are less likely to give you credit for it, often drawing dead with overcards. Third, I think the flush draw is still valuable even if you are forced to be far more cautious with it.
Having said that, I don't think any of these suited connectors should be played in the front 3 positions unless you have the absolute perfect conditions. I think if preflop raising is even "not uncommon", then I would be dropping these hands because I don't want to pay 2 bets to see the flop. Otherwise, for 1 bet, I think they hold positive EV when 5-6 players total are in to see the flop. They are fit or fold hands...the biggest danger I've had with them is what to do when the pot is huge due to preflop raising and I get a small piece of the flop. If you've got bottom pair, how far do you go to try to spike your 2nd pair or trips? That's an answer that depends entirely of your read on the other players, and I like to keep myself from making those difficult decisions as much as possible b/c I know the more difficult decisions I make, the more mistakes I will make.
In conclusion, I think most of the EV for small suited connectors depends solely on the skill of the player using them AFTER the flop...they are hands which can cost a novice an arm and a leg as they draw too far and bet them too aggressively, but suited connectors can make an expert a huge stack of chips IMO. They are the perfect example of the marginal hands that separate us LL rec players with the experts in our game. Interested in more commentary.
Mojay
I agree with iammojay and would add this: If, in your game, the rake, toke and jackpot drop comes close to a small bet, your current strategy might be right on the money. With lower costs you could loosen up and play down to 54s after several callers -- 3 or 4, 2 if they play badly. When you're out of position, a raise automatically makes these unprofitable because you won't get as many bets on later streets when you hit. So the game has to be very passive to avoid losing money with these hands if you play them early.
I would like to apologize in advance for this off-topic post but I found this to be pretty amazing. If you already know the solution please wait to post any comments because I think it will be interesting to see how different people reason this out. Here is the problem: You are on a game show and are asked to choose one of three doors. Behind one of the doors is a car and behind the other two are goats. After you choose a door the host will reveal a goat from one of the two doors you didn't choose. You are then given the option to change your pick to the other door. (i.e. you pick door 3, the host shows you a goat behind door 1, you can now change your pick to door number 2 if you wish) Do you switch? If you do does this change the probability of winning the car?
Hey,
Yes, it is now in your best interest to switch. It's best to think of it as follows: when you make your choice, you have a 66.7% of being wrong. But in the absence of further information, all doors are equally "good." However, once our friend Monty Hall gives us the additional information, the door which was not our first choice is now more likely to be the correct one.
One way to see this is to take some more extreme case ... i.e., take 100 doors, you make a choice, and then 98 doors are opened to reveal goats ... and so on.
Kind of interesting, hmmm....
Dave
The last response is wrong. The fact that you now know one of the "wrong" doors doesn't change anything. You knew that information already, in that you knew that no matter which door you picked he would show you one with a goat. The odds of your being right are now no different that they were at the start. Switch or not, it doesn't matter.
Sorry try again
I had never heard this variation before but using the same reasoning I gues you would win the car 99 times out of 100 by switching. Very interesting.
You find out one door is wrong. You are left with 2 doors, one is the right one. Who cares which door you picked previously?
The situation NOW is that there are 2 doors, one is the right one (asuming you are trying to win the car not the goat.) 2 doors, one right one wrong. Toss a coin, stay with original pick, change pick of doors. Who cares.
The title of your post is appropiate. What you wrote is indeed foolish dribble. Thanks for the heads up.
Switch every time!
You have three choices - Car, Goat, Goat - hence a 33.3% chance of getting some new wheels.
If you select a Goat, which you will do 66.7% of the time, and switch after the other goat is revealed - you will win the car 66.7% of the time.
You are making the same mistake everyone makes in trying to solve this problem. Linking your first door choice with your second. The other way to look at the problem (and which yields the correct answer) is that you now have a choice of two doors, one of which has a goat, and the other a car. Under these conditions, switching or not doesn't matter.
This is indeed the Monty Hall paradox, and here is the logic behind the solution: You will pick the wrong door 2/3 of the time. When the host shows you a goat, if you switch the only time you will FAIL to win the car is when you picked it right to begin with (1/3 of the time). So by switching, the probability of winning goes from 1/3 to 2/3 or approx 66.6%. This is very counter-intuitive so I suspect there are some who wont believe it. It seems that in the best case the players chances go up to 50-50 when the goat is revealed because when the goat IS shown the player can stay with his pick or change but since each door is equally as likely to have the car behind it the odds should be 2-1. But this is not true. Comments?
No, no, no. Changing the door after the first one is revealed does not give you a 2/3 chance of being correct. Change or stay with the door you have, it doesn't matter. At this point each door has a 50-50 chance of having the car, whichever one you pick is equivalent. The paradox is created by improper assumptions in creating the mathematical solution.
I have run a simulation in Excel, and the number of times you are a winner when you keep your original choice with 11179 attempts was 3744... Looks like 33% to me. I have read this problem and solution before and now I am sure of the result.
Derrick
I think the way you stated might make the results of choosing more clear. By sticking with your original choice, you won 33% of the time. Since their was only one other choice left (one was elimitated for you), the % of time you would win by switching to it is 67%
I believe if you ran a program on this, you would see that you would be right about 2/3 of the time. Try it
Here how this was explained to me by a friend who heard it in a class in math grad school:
Imagine there are 10,000 doors. You choose 1 and Monty opens 9,998 of the others. Would you switch to the one remaining closed door?
KJS
Thats a great explanation...
Another way to think of it is that you choose 2 doors you want opened in the end. You first selection should then be the door you do NOT want opened at the end.
Monty will now open one of the two doors you want opened, you now switch and point at the other door you want opened and monty opens that one too. Voila, you got him to open two doors, hence 2/3 chance to win the car.
Sincerly, Andreas
Get it...kids...goats...
HAHAHA
I can't believe anyone could really think it doesn't matter if you switch because the odds are 50/50 at the end! If you are at all open minded simply try it empirically and if you want to make it easy use 10 doors and narrow down to 2 (I suggest using cards and having a friend play Monty)
If you can't understand the math this will show you immediatlely who is right. If not convinced we can meet in vegas and each play our strategy (not switching vs. switching for a 100 hands and the loser plays for the plane tickets.)
This is a classic example of the Red Herring: 1. You never had a one-third chance of picking the right car. The first choice was MEANINGLESS because you didn't get to see which door held the car right then. You have 0% chance of seeing a car and 100% chance of eliminating ONE of the goats. No "choice" exists.
2. The real choice happens when there are are MEANINGFUL results. The "second" choice is the only choice you will have: a car or a goat (it never mattered WHICH door).
3. Odds are 50/50.
4. Bikini-clad Beach Bimbos instead of goats would REALLY make a dilemma.....
You pick Door 1. You have 33% chance that door 1 contains car, 67% chance that car is behind the other two doors.
Door 2 is opened to reveal a goat. Door 3 originally had the same 33% chance that Door 1 did to have the car. Opening Door 2 didn't change that.
If you stick with Door 1 throughout, you have 33% chance. (If you had picked Door 3 throughout, you had a 33% chance...)
So the goat behind Door 2 had no effect on what percentage chance the car was behind either Door 1 or Door 3... which is 33%
If the goat WASN"T revealed, and you picked Door 3... you have a 50% chance of 100% (of original 67% chance of Door 2 or 3) and 50% chance of 0% victory... which amounts to... 33% chance that you pick the right door.
I answered the wrong question (what chance does the car have to be behind a specific door) in my previous post.
Your percentage of picking the car does NOT improve, it just seems to. There are two comparisons going on here: a) What % chance do I have that 1 out of 3 doors has the car? b) What % chance do I have that 1 out of 3 doors has the car, AFTER I ELIMINATE A LOSING DOOR?
Choice A is irrelevant, as it means nothing until the second choice is made (and therefore is an incorrect comparison with B... apples and oranges)
Two-step scenarios: 33% chance that order is C G G... with 50% chance you pick car afterwards (33 times .5 = 17%) 33% chance that order is G C G... with 50% chance you pick car afterwards (33 times .5 = 17%) 33% chance that order is G G C... with 50% chance you pick car afterwards (33 times .5 = 17%)
= total chance adds up to (surprise) 50%, ignoring the rounding above
It's 33% that the car was behind one specific door BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE WAS DONE, but 50% chance that you can pick the door with the car behind it, SINCE WE LIMIT YOUR CHOICES TO TWO, RATHER THAN THREE, when the car can be won. You ALWAYS had a 50% chance to pick the car, given the two-step selection, BEFORE YOU EVEN MADE THE CHOICE- it was NOT 33%. You HAVEN'T increased your chances of winning by switching doors.... it just seems that way compared to the initial choice, which is misleading.
It's the same thing as if Monty said originally "Here's two doors, one has a car, pick one." In the second step, you NEVER face a scenario where you pick 2 doors with 2 goats, so you're 50/50.
Another way to look at it:
You had a 67% chance to pick door 1 and the car's in door 2 or 3... and a 100% chance that the car is left GIVEN THE KNOWN FACT THAT THE CAR WASN'T BEHIND DOOR 1. That does NOT mean that you have a 67% chance of catching the car behind the door that is left initially.. there was a preceding condition of NOT being door 1 and NOT having to choose from the door with the other goat behind it!
Hopefully that nails this down for y'all
You realize, of course, that, based on the assumption that Monty _always_ reveals a goat, your explanation flies in the face of everything that has been written in math and game theory publications about this problem?
So - are all the mathematicians and game theoreticians wrong about this?
Still not right, sorry.
... which is interesting. Before you do any picking, there is a 50% chance that the final door you end up choosing will have the car behind it (based only on the condition that one losing door will be revealed before you have to pick your final door, leaving only two doors to choose from.)
However, given the conditions that a) goat is always revealed and b) your CURRENT door is never opened.... that makes it 67% more likely that you should switch from your current door.
I'm still a little lost on how it changes the probability of winning the car, though. Am I wrong in determining that there's a 50% chance of winning the car if you DON'T initially pick a door?
I'm turning in my Junior Math Moron badge in shame...
Hi Easy E,
Depending upon whether you change or not you have a 1/3 or 2/3 chance of being correct. The mistake you are making is that, because there are only two choices, you are in effect adding them together (1/3+2/3=1) and then dividing their sum by two (1/2=50%). If they were equally likely to be the winning choice then you would be correct in your 50 percent estimate. However, since the two choices are not equally likely you cannot properly average them to find their average likelihood of being correct.
William
I will deal out a deck of 52 cards face down …You will try to pick the Ace of Spades.
You will choose a card that you think is the ace, I will remove one card that ISN”t the ace.
We keep on doing this until we are down to two cards.
With your logic, the odds are 51 to 1 in your favor.
To make this an even money proposition you would need to give me 51 dollars every time you are wrong, and one dollar for every time you pick the ace.
Any of you math weenies wanna take me up on this bet?
My bags are packed…
Give me 50:1 and the option to choose your card and I'll take you up on it...
Consider it like this. I pick one card. You pick up the rest and throw away all cards that aren't the ace of spades. You will pick up the ace 51 times out of 52. Then I take your card. Since you've discarded all the loosing cards I'll get the ace 51 times out of 52...
The point is that you don't discard at random, you only discards losers.
Sincerly, Andreas
For those of you that still doubt the correctness of the solution try programming this algorithm: 1. Pick a random number between 1 and 3 (this is the car) 2. Pick a second random number between 1 and 3 (this is your pick) 3. show a goat i.e. of the two doors not "picked" randomly eliminate a door that gas a "goat" behind it. 4. Now switch your picks. If the pick matches the number selected in (1) then increment a variable that counts the number of times you won. 5. divide the winner variable by the number of times the simulation was executed and you will get a number approaching 66.7% It IS true, and very thought provoking. Try it.
p.s. if anyone is interested I can send you the code (either C or VB)
have fun!
Read Van Ollefen's posts please and stop posting such utter crap. Are you the type of player that asks for a new deck after a bad beat? God, how hard is it to figure out? Have you had any schooling whatsoever? After you pick a door, imagine you pick the wrong one. NOW ISOLATE THE PROBLEM AT HAND FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. YOU HAVE 2 DOORS TO CHOOSE FROM. ONE HAS CAR ONE DOES NOT. IT IS NOT THAT HARD YOU DRIBBLING MORONS. YOU HAVE A 50-50 CHANCE AT THIS STAGE TO GET THE RIGHT ONE. IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU CHANGE YOUR CHOICE OR NOT. Are you the guys who pick red if it comes up black the previous spin on Roulette? "Well it came up red so there must be black now...law of averages" God wake up fools.
Who is the dribbling moron? The one who puts out the hard to follow CORRECT logic or the one who cannot follow it? If it is that much of an intellectual jump for you then do some expiriments yourself. You will see that indeed you will win (about) 2/3 of the time. This is not oppinion it is irrefutable FACT. Can you not accept that some things are not as simple as they seem? Oh well, what can you expect from a dribbling moron...
Hmm. I don't know why I am wasting time on this. Explain to me this;
You have 2 doors. One has the car, one does not. Which one should you pick? By pick, I mean change your choice or not. This is the same as not having a previous choice, and picking now for the first time.
You have a %50 chance of guessing correctly, from this point on. And it is from this point on which we are talking about. ie should you 'change your choice or not'.
WHY DOES IT MATTER WHAT HAS HAPPENED BEFORE? AT THE SITUATION IN QUESTION, YOU HAVE 2 DOORS TO CHOOSE FROM.
Please explain to me how this is not the key to the argument. I beg you. 2 doors, one choice. How many times must this be written? How in the hell does it matter if you change your chioce or not? These are independant events.
One last time soldier. You make your initial choice of door.
If you are wrong there are 2 doors left.
One has the car behind it.
The situation now has no knowledge of what has happened. The situation does not care that one door has been eliminated.
2 doors. One right one wrong. How does changing your pick improve your chances beyond %50?
Answer; it does not.
You pick one of the 3 doors. This means that the other 2 doors are either Goat-Goat, Goat-Car, or Car-Goat. See yet? You will only end up in the Goat-Goat situation 1/3 of the time, or when you picked the car right in the first place. The other 2/3 of the time (when you didn't pick the car in the first place) you will win by switching. I told you this was counter-intuitive but it IS true.
Clovispkr is right.
I had this exact same problem on one of my statistics classes in college. I can't remember exactly how to solve it, but try setting it up as a decision tree.
Arg... now you're going to make me go find it aren't you? I can't remember the exact term of the probability that you're trying to find, but you have to calculate conditional probabilities and then "flip" the problem around. The correct answer and the best chance of success for the problem is to choose 1 of the 3 doors, and then switch your decision to the unknown door. This decision will win the car 2/3 of the time.
If I find my work in my archives, I will post it. Promise.
PS: I got it right on my test :)
I was given this problem in college as part of an informal IQ test. It seems that people either see it or they don't. The solution clovis posted is pretty much as straightforward as it gets - they are dependant events.
If you don't get it - or won't believe it - move on. Someday when you are doing something else, your brain will finally process it and you will be enlightened.
.
Hey,
I think I found the cause of all the confusion. There is a very subtle but important distinction at work here. (By pointing this out, I give all the 50/50 defenders a way out in which they save face, as they can claim they misunderstood the problem as it was originally posed.)
Before any doors get opened, there are three possible orderings: CGG, GCG, and GGC.
Without loss of generality, let's say you always choose door 1.
Now, if the host opens another door AT RANDOM to reveal a goat (say door number 2), then the second ordering is ruled out, and you clearly have a 50/50 shot of getting it right whether you switch or not.
HOWEVER, the host DOES NOT make the selection at random. In the classic phrasing of the paradox, he is FORCED to show you a goat. So now, while he can open door 2 in the first and third cases, in the event that the second ordering is the true one, he is now forced to open door 3. This is now a problem in conditional probabilities; hence, my statement about Bayes' Theorem above. It is now clear that switching provides a 2/3 chance at the car.
I wonder how many arguments arise because one side lacks a complete understanding of the problem...
Dave
I don't think this is quite right. It should not matter whether Monty randomly open a door that showed a goat or knew before hand it would be a goat. It is the information that is important - once he shows you that goat you want to switch.
(However that is my intuitive answer so beat me up if I am wrong!)
Keep Folding
Folding Pete
You have a 2/3 chance of picking the car if you always change your choice.
Why?
Because you have a 2/3 chance of initially picking a goat. I have abused the hell out of previous posters wtih out considering the problem enough. As such I will never post under the name of Erwin again. Sorry and goodbye.
I can't remember the proof and don't have time to work it out, but if you switch you double your chances of picking the winner.
I'm no math wiz but...why go through the effort to figure odds on something when you can't win it? What is the real probability of winning the car on the first choice. Answer = zero. Wether you have a 1/3 chance or not is meaningless and has no relation to the second choice. The events are not connected in any way as it's a new game after one door is eliminated.
oh boy....
I had to figure this one out, you kind have to prove it to oneself at an intuitive level. I have thought of two easy(ish) examples.
1. There are 1 Billion doors - car behind only one. You pick a door. Monty opens all the other doors but 1 (1 billion -2) showing goats behind them. Intuitively it does not seem very likely you picked the correct door - it is most likely be behind the other one.
2. Three doors again. Let's give numbers to each prize:
1 = Goat 2 = Goat 3 = Car
Let's look at what happens if you always switch. You pick a door, behind it will be 1,2 or 3. Once Monty open's one goat shielding door there are 2 closed doors remaining. You will lose the car only if 3 is behind your initial door (you will switch to 1 or 2).
You will win the car if 1 or 2 is behind your door (you will switch to 3). So obviously you are twice as likely to win if you switch (1,2 compared to 3). Basically because you are always switching you want your initial pick to be a goat and then switch to the car. Before any doors are open you are twice as likely to pick a goat than a car and once Monty opens a door with a goat you switch to a door that is more likely to have a car.
The chances of your initial pick being the car are still 1/3 and as the prob has to add up to zero the other remaining door must have 2/3 prob.
Keep Folding
Folding Pete
What I find most interesting about the Monty Hall Paradox is that intelligent knowledgable people, even people with a good understanding of probabilities, often get this one wrong. Not only are they confident of their knowledge, they think you are a bit of a fool for disagreeing with them, and it can be very difficult to convince them otherwise.
And yes, you should switch doors.
I think that intelligent people with some understanding of probabilities especially tend to have problems understanding it. That’s what makes it so fun to talk about.
Hi guys,
I have been very surprised recently by just how powerful a tight image can be, even in the average loose/passive 3/6 games around these parts.
While pre-flop, I still will get a number of cold-calls to any raise, my post-flop raises seem to have earned an extrordinary amount of respect. People seem to believe that whenever I raise, I must have a premium hand, and don't seem to realize that I will often raise for tactical reasons.
Here's an example of a play I made where I think that my image won me a pot to which I was not entitled ...
PREFLOP
I'm in the BB with As2s. There are 3 limpers, and the cutoff raises. Button cold-calls, SB mucks, and I call. Rest call.
6 players, 12 SB in pot.
FLOP: Ad Jh 7s
I check, awaiting further developments. Action is checked to the pre-flop raiser, who now bets. Button calls. I decide to check-raise to limit the field. A collective groan rises from the table ... everybody folds to the cutoff and the button, who both call.
3 players, 9 BB in pot.
TURN: Jc
Hmmmm, I had intended to check unless an A, 2, or spade had fallen off on the turn. However, my two remaining opponents are two of the better players at the table and have been showing off some of their "impressive laydowns." I bet as a semi-bluff, with the intention of mucking to a raise. However, both players muck very quickly.
The pre-flop raiser tells me: "You should have slowplayed."
Me: "Huh?"
HIm: "Well, when you check raised, I knew you had top two, or maybe 77. You'd have raised with AA or JJ pre-flop, and you don't play J7. You need to slowplay tights like that and let people in..."
Me: "Yeah, the board pairing did kinda kill my action ... I'll have to keep that in mind for next time. Good read..."
Obviously, this falls in the category of "don't try this at home kids." But it has led me to consider how both how to preserve this image, and how to further capitalize on it. I find it very refreshing when my tight image and the correct game conditions allow me to use semi-bluffs, tactical raises, and other more sophisticated plays which I usually have to leave in my toolbox.
A few of my observations which others might find useful ...
1) Try to play tighter than usual in the first hour or so. Don't pull anything fancy. Since I'm a relatively young guy (25), I often have to overcome the bias in the minds of my opponents that I'm some young punk that has seen "Rounders" one too many times and I'm letting my testosterone and ego do the playing for me...
2) Pay very close attention to your opponents. Listen in on conversations. Single out the better opponents at the table ... they're the ones who will notice that you only play a very few premium hands, so they are the ones you should target.
3) If you raise post-flop for tactical reasons (limiting the field, free card play, etc.) and notice an inordinate amount of respect from your opponents, slowly start working "fancy plays" into your vanilla game strategy.
4) If the pot looks like it is going to be short-handed (hey, it sometimes happens!) and you are in late position, strongly consider raising limpers with any hand likely to be better than their average limping hand. Ideally, the limpers (and the blinds as well) should be a bit tighter and more passive than the average opponent. Obviously, you will still have to play sensibly post-flop (don't get carried away) but 2 or 3 handed with position, you can often pick up the pot with a bet.
5) Keep an eye on changing game conditions. If more calling stations join, accept the fact that all the fancy plays go back on the shelf.
6) Respect is hard to earn, and easy to lose. If you get caught trying to pull a "fast one," revert to your vanilla game and wait for a while. Within half an hour, most of them will have forgotten the play you tried to make, and will have reverted to their perception of you as tight and unimaginative.
7) To paraphrase THfAP: "Don't make fancy plays for the sake of making fancy plays." Any time that you try one of these "image plays," make it for a very well defined and tactically sound reason. Most often, the best way to get the money in a low-limit game is through solid, straightforward play.
I apologize if these points are self-evident or well-known to the majority of the posters here. It's just that I have been heartened to find that even in the most loose-passive games there are situations which arise in which the savvy player actually can use more sophisticated plays.
Thanks for putting up with the length....
Dave
Very good post.
Quite often I will catch someone doing this, usually while I am not in the pot. It's funny to watch the winner just let the rest of the table go "Trips? Top two? Boat??"
This Saturday, a guy was raising in late position with ANYTHING if there were limpers in front of him. He had hit a couple boards with trash and succeeded in terrifying two or three players at the table. He bluffed out one guy on his immediate right FIVE times in a row, showing every one of them.
I was on his left and he turned to me after his 5th bluff and said "See? He fold because I bet strong!!!" I was a bit disgusted and said "He fold because he is the the most unobservant player I've ever seen."
As often happens, the bluffer never changed gears and he gave back a huge stack of chips he'd accumulated.
I had some comments on your observations:
1) This is good, of course, but works best if you get an 'average' distribution of starting hands. Saturday night, I started out tight and didn't drag a pot for 2 1/2 hours! There were a couple pots I might have taken had I not been playing tight, but for the most part, I was just dealt crap after crap.
4) I would be careful with this one, as I see people doing it quite often (see above). I will often (not every time) re-raise out of the blinds if I suspect someone is liberally button-raising the limpers with hands like 78 and QT.
5) Agreed! Bet/Raise for value and let those river cards fall.
6) This is great advice. Failing to follow it and correctly change gears has been an expensive lesson for me.
Something I have been trying lately (which I call "Grandma style!").
For the first hour, NEVER raise and NEVER lead the betting, no matter what.
Example, playing last night, I have AQs in mid position, I call. I turn the nut flush, I check and call. River I have the nuts, I check and call. Everyone at the table is in amazement.
Sometime later, I make the nut full house, I check and call all the way, including 2 bets on the river.
Around here, people start to fear. Then when you finally start playing your normal game, hands are being fired into the muck like nobody's business. So you lose out on a couple of bets in the first hour (you may save some too, like when I made 2nd nut flush and ran into the nut flush - board was paired so we check-check on the river, because guy was afraid I might have quads even!).
For the first hour, NEVER raise and NEVER lead the betting, no matter what.
I think that's the worst advice i've ever heard.
Example: [snip] I check and call the nuts twice. Everyone at the table is in amazement.
Around here, people start to fear. Then when you finally start playing your normal game, hands are being fired into the muck like nobody's business. So you lose out on a couple of bets in the first hour
dear god. if you can only plan on winning 1-2 BB an hour, losing 2 guaranteed BB, possibly 3.5-4 is a disaster.
you waste time and money trying to change the way people play. why not play your normal game, win what you should, and let people continue to call and pay-off too much. it takes no work, and no change in strategy. they already make TONS of mistakes.
(you may save some too, like when I made 2nd nut flush and ran into the nut flush - board was paired so we check-check on the river, because guy was afraid I might have quads even!).
what if you had the better hand (which should more often be the case), you should make a ton of money, but you wont because of your silly image.
I must comment on some of your points
1. play tight early - good idea. establish a tight image right off the bat, then once they know you are a rock, you can loosen up a little. I am 32 but look young, so I know exactly what you are talking about as far as bias opponents goes. Let them think what they like. I usually even dress snazzy to make myself look like the stereotype that most older opponents give me. If they are observant though, they figure out after a while that I ain't no young punk when it comes to cards.
2. Excellent advice. Sometimes you can listen to these people tell you all the intricate details of exactly how and why they play the way they do. Then you can use it against them, often times right away.
5. when the calling stations arrive, it's time to back off your bluffs and semi-bluffs and other fancy players and revert to solid play and value betting or raising.
6. Excellent advice
7. fancy plays aren't worth squat when you are playing against totally unobservant players or calling stations. Actually, they are a waste of money in these cases.
When I muck a hand face down after winning a pot, and my opponents "read" me as having a much better hand than I really had, I either say something to confirm what they said, or I remain silent. If they think you are betting and raising with strong hands, there is no need to clue them in that this might not be the case. It may also give you a chance to steal or bluff later in the game.
Overall, great post.
Dave in Cali
I have played about 6 hands so far. Table is extremely tight except for one player. This player (2 to my right)has raised every hand so far. He had to only show his hand once and it was a fairly weak holding K,Jo (from early position).
At this point I am guessing he is a maniac.
I get dealt Kc,Qc. Of course the player open raises and I isolate with a three bet. Not the greatest hand to isolate with but probably good enough in this situation. He calls.
flop - 10,2,6c.
He checks, I bet, he check-raises. I three bet and he calls. I am certainly calling here and a 3 bet gives me options on the turn.
Turn - 3c.
I have two overcards and a flush draw. He checks and I bet out. The way I have been playing represents a big pair. Given the likelyhood he has nothing a semi-bluff here might scoop the pot. He calls. Damn.
River - J.
Now I am screwed as I have nothing. There are over 8 big bets in the pot. Do I give up at this point? I bet it on the very remote chance he will drop. Since there are no draws he likely will call down with his 10 or J.
He does and shows A,10o.
Any comments?
I would have waited for a better hand to try and isolate him (med pair, KQs or big ace). As long as he has money he will continue to play the same way. Even maniacs get dealt good hands or mediocre ones like A-10 and catch part of the flop like he did.
On the flop you are a big dog and trying to out play a maniac at small limit (or medium limits for that matter) is a mistake IMO.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
PREFLOP: Your play is fine, KQs is more than enough hand to isolate.
FLOP: I like the 3 bet, but be aware that you are behind.
TURN: Here is where the biggest mistake occurs. You most likely have 15 outs (3K, 3Q, 9 clubs) and given the flop action your opponent will call your bet. Take the free card, you need it. Fold to a bet on the river if you do not improve.
RIVER: Given the action, I find it hard to believe that your opponent will fold.
Oh well, sometimes the maniacs have real hands.
How likely was he to fold heads up against your semi-bluff raise on the turn? I like to at least have a pair when I make that move to give me a shot at winning the showdown, and there WILL be a showdown.
I misread your post and thought your hand was KJo. Your preflop 3-bet was fine. I agree with Andrew to keep in mind that you are behind but I disagree with Andrew on your flop play. If a J Q K or club doesn't come on the turn you've just wasted 3-bets with 6 outs and no draw on the river.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
What options does three betting the flop give you on the turn? You really missed the flop so why not just call him down to the river and then get tricky if you make a hand? BTW, you're lucky he didn't chack raise you again on the turn. Seems to me you may have been out played a bit on this particular hand.
The three bet gives me the possible option of taking a free card on the turn. If I simply call the checkraise he will certainly lead on the turn.
I agree, I was outplayed this hand.
Were you trying to bluff a maniac?????
HIS play seemed pretty solid: check-raising top pair/top kicker, calling your 3 bets, calling on the turn, etc.
When I play against my resident maniacs, I usually smooth call 'em...let them do the betting for me, until I KNOW I have them beat, then I go over the top and hammer, hammer, hammer...
Turns out the guy was not a maniac. Maybe just on a rush or on tilt. Table was also extremely tight (tightest LL table I have ever played) so maybe he was just running over the table before I got there.
He played solidly on this hand and played fairly solid the rest of the night and I got an extremely good read on him. He wasn't a problem again.
As it turned out, he always check raised when he had a hand (never led once) and never bluffed if he didn't catch anything. He would also fold fairly easily post flop if he didn't catch anything.
Also, he played normal agressive starting cards the rest of the night and I didn't see him raise with anything I wouldn't have raised with again.
I had just read a Bob Ciaffone article before the game about following through on you bluffing which I think affected my turn and river play as I like to test stuff I read.
I still like the three bet on flop. I would definately check the turn and the river next time.
Also, hindsite is 20/20. If he had been playing overcards on the flop and folded my turn bet I would be patting myself on the back on how smart a bet that was.
I am not sure I would three bet and isolate with KQs. You may want more callers with those big suited connectors. I'd rather three bet him with a hand like 88. I think you probably just overplayed your hand a bit. 3 betting the flop with nada? Then, betting out. This is low limit. Where did you think he was going?
Two hands from the other night that I folded on the flop, thinking maybe Im getting too gunshy.
First hand: Q6o in the BB. Free play with 6 limpers.
Flop Q88, twotone. I check, its bet by a total maniac (I once saw him 5-bet heads up on queen high, no draw, when the other person had quads; he also offers at any time to bet $100 before the deal, and best hand takes it), raised and reraised. Two people call. I fold here.
Second hand: AA in late position. 4 limpers, I raise (my first preflop raise in 4 hours?), 2 more cold call, 8 see the flop. Love the 3-6 game.
Flop: 6-7-9, two tone again. SB bets, BB raises, UTG reraises, UTG+1 caps. How about that action? I don't even have the A of the twotone suit. I fold.
Am I starting to lose my nerve or what..? I think most days I would call with the Q6 (and probably bet out on the flop), but with the AA hand, no idea. Thoughts on these two hands?
I would have thought that the fold on Q6 was good because it was raised twice so I would give someone credit for at least a better queen than you, but given the action on a 679 flop, I don't know...Did very many people show down their hand? I'm curious just what all those people were excited about.
Hand 1: I was sure I was up against minimum a better Queen, and I have no outs to improve other than another Q.
Turn was an 8, river was a 9, making the board Q8889. Three people in the hand on the river, check bet raise checkraise fold call.
Checkraising maniac shows JJ, folder says he had Q-10, winner has KQ.
Hand 2: After all that action, and a 20+ BB pot, UTG took it down with a bet on the river and no hand was shown. I decided to leave after this hand as I didn't like the table anymore and something about this hand just felt wrong to me.
When I folded on the flop, I was sure someone had 2 pair, someone had a set, someone had a straight, couple flush draws, couple open enders. I think I might have been the only person to fold on the flop! Unlikely holdings to a preflop raise? Not on this table..
I would fold both of these.
You have very little on the first hand. Your only hope is that no one has an 8 or a Q or an overpair which is extremely unlikely given the betting. Someone also must have the draw on the flush.
Also, I think you might lead the Q and hope the maniac knocks out the other players with a raise and then check call him down (or even lead bet depending what hits on the turn and river). Even with a lead bet, you fold if you get similar action
The second hand is a very dangerous flop. With the betting someone probably has at least trips if not a straight. You are behind and are drawing very thin. The only hope is that the best hand out there is two pair, nobody hits their flush or straight, and the board pairs a card that doesn't give someone trips.
I think occassionaly your A,A will win (which might be the case here since you are making this post). Overall, calling in these situations will cost a lot of money.
I have to agree, especally in a 3-6 game on the first hand it is way to easy for somebody to have an 8 leaving you with 2 outs at best, (and from the betting somebody probably had a queen as well leaving you with one out for a split, easy fold.
hand two, too many half reasonable hands can have you drawing really thin on this board, think of the number of connectors, one gaps and two gaps that can have you beat with the betting capped comming to you I think you have an easy fold. yes I know it hurts to loose with aces, but what can you do here. hard but correct fold.
In the first hand, if the guy is truly maniacal, I would definitely bet into him, hoping his raise knocks out better hands. If someone 3-bets him, fold. If he just calls, he's got a hand. In this situation, I want to get heads up with the maniac and call him down.
This is the reason I like having absolute maniacs on my left.
Second hand: Unless the BB, UTG and the capper are all maniacs, you are probably beat and it's a good fold. Tough to even hope for a low board pair to save your AA against two small pair.
It sounds like there was more than one maniac at the table.
Hand#1. You want to bet Q no kicker into 6 people into that board? You checked and it was 2 bets when it got back to you and you are wondering whether you laid down the best hand?
Hand#2. Probably a good laydown as well. The flop was not exactly the best for AA. It really depends on who was doing the raising and re-raising. This was a case of either you are way ahead or way behind on the flop. When it is capped before it gets back to you, I would put my AA in the category of "way behind."
I don't think either hand showed you to be gun-shy (unless you left something out), I think both were good laydowns.
The first laydown is interesting, if the two players who called the maniac are decent and aware of him playing any crap like there was no tomorrow they could be calling with as little as ace high. Both of them would probably raise with a Q or an 8 trying to get it heads up with the maniac.
So you might be in the lead on that one, but then again, you might not be and you could easily get drawn out on... So it's probably a good fold.
Second hand, easy fold... The chance of 4 people betting like that on less then a two-pair/set or straight is minimal. Same thing applies in this hand as the previous. If you're ahead (very small chance imo) you can still get sucked out on easily.
Sincerly, Andreas
I should start reading the posts more carefully before responding...
If it's raised and reraised and two coldcallers it's an easy dump imo. Unless they're all maniacs...
Sincerly, Andreas
I'd call or raise with the Q6. I probably would have bet it out because if I check and the action is just bet-call, I'm probably there for 5 bets when I'm behind. I don't like folding because it's so often the best hand. If I bet, however, I'll probably get raised by the maniac or a better hand, and can therefore cut my losses or maybe it head-up with someone who can have anything. It's a chance to take a nice pot with a weak hand from a clown.
It's an easy fold with aces because of the chance of you drawing dead plus the chance of someone hitting their draw.
I know I'm nit-picking, but he can't be "drawing dead" with AA since no str8 flush possible on flop.
Hand #1: Fold and think nothing of it. No brainer. What can you beat? It's not the maniac I'm worried about, it's the callers.
Hand #2: See #1.
I think you have to fold on both hands, I'm curious what showed up on the AA hand, but not so curious that I want to invest as many chips as it seem it will take.
Good luck, bt.
Haven't read the others but I'm sure that most will agree that both these folds are very safe. The first one is automatic fold. All you can beat is a cold bluff. The second is a good fold too. Even in 3-6, reraises and caps almost always mean something. You have to be somewhere between "way behind" and "no hope".
At the risk of being blacklisted from this forum, I have one last interesting problem (paradox) to share with you (this one a little mre related to gambling).
Here is the game: You pick anopponent at random (i.e. your opponent has the same chance of winning as you: 50%). You both take out all of the money in your wallets. whoever had the most money in their wallet LOSES and must give all his money to the winner. From your perspective you win 50% of the time and when you DO win you get paid better than even money. AHA! a +EV situation and a good bet right? The problem is your opponent also is getting paid better than even money for his even money wager. How can you both have positive expectations?
I think you are misusing the term "expectation"
If the cash amounts are truly random, there is no way to expect any value from this game.
Neither player has a +EV.
I disagree. The +EV comes from the fact that you expect to win 50% of the time and you also expect to get paid more than you "bet" when you do win. Example: You have x dollars in your wallet and your opponent has y dollars. In order for you to win y must be greater than x. Therefore, EV = .5(-x) + .5(x+(y-x))... -> EV must be positive. Remember your opponent must be just as likely to have less money than more. Have fun.
It seems to me that you are only considering what happens when you win. When you lose, you lose more than your opponent was putting up.
In the end, no one can expect to win anything.
I think what is throwing the wrench in the math here is how to compute the expectation for losing and winning wagers. When you lose, you are putting up X amount of money to win zero. When you win, you are putting up Y amount of money to win an infinite amount.
In a non-mathematical sense, find the midway between absolute 0 expectation and infinite expection.
What I should have posted was
When you win, you have an infinitely positive expectation and when you lose, you have an infinitely negative expecation.
Add em up and get zero expectation
Since you don't have a choice in wagering you break even on the bet. If you on the other hand had the choice not to wager you would have an +EV bet...
If you're walking around with BillG's wallet you certainly would want to wager since you're likely to have more money than 98% of the random people. If on the other hand you had mine you would probably avoid it at all costs... ;-)
The math:
A, B random from [0..100] (uniform and uncorrelated and all the other ladida..)
Your EV is, EV = P(A>B) * E{A + B} + P(B>A) * E{0}
Where, E{ } means expected value. P(A>B) = 0.5, and P(A>B) = 0.5
Hence, EV = 0.5 * E{A + B}
And since A and B are uncorrelated and have the same distribution we can express this as, EV = 0.5 * ( E{A} + E{B} ) = 0.5 * ( 2 * E{A} ) = E{A}
So in this example, EV = 50. Since you don't have the choice not to wager it's an break even bet. (Assuming you're both likely to have the same range of money in your wallet.)
Sincery, Andreas
Reverse all comments about my wallet and BillG's... The math is still valid thou.. (I hope)
Sincerly, Andreas
The problem assumes that you will win as often as you lose. The amount of money actually in your wallet is of no consequence.
I would never accept the invitation to play the game unless i was sure i had the smallest note available in my wallet.As i see it,i cannot lose this way(accepting of course that no coins are allowed).
Having just $1 of course reveals the answer. As the amount of money you have decreases, your EV tends toward positive 100%. As your amount increases, your EV tends toward 100% negative. The flaw in the question is that you cannot determine EV without regard to the amount of money you have. The odds of winning are not random or 50%, they are directly related to the money you have.
This post was only a thought provoking paradox, not anything practical. One of the assumptions of the problem is that the probability of you winning is 50%. So when you lose, you lose whats in your wallet but when you win you must get paid more than whats in your wallet (or you would have lost). If these conditions are true than you have a positive expectation. The problem is, so does everyone who plays. I don't think there is a solution to this problem, it's just something to hurt your head a little.
I just thought of something about the 50% winning assumption. I agree with the other posters that the assumption is wrong, but I think I have a better way to phrase it:
If your chance of winning is 50%, then half the players have less money than you, and half the playes have more money than you. This cannot be true for all the players. Therefore, it cannot be the case that everyone has a 50% chance of winning.
Muffin, This post was only a theoretical problem NOT anything meant to be implemented in the real world. Now take a second and imagine that you will win 50% (even though this is clearly not true, hell Bill Gates is running around out there :). Now after you make this assumption try and figure whether your EV is positive, negative or zero. If you do use some logic or tricky math and come up with zero or neg. EV, then thats great just don't base that on the fact that you can't really expect to win half of the time, that information is already given to you.
I realize this isn't a real game - however that doesn't mean that there might not be theoretical inconsistancies with it.
A person who has a 50% chance of winning against n opponents necessarily has the median amount of money. If everyone has a 50% chance of winning, then everyone has the median amount of money. It must be the case that either: 1) everyone has the same amount 2) there are an infinite number of people playing - and I'm not even sure about this one because there are problems with uniformly picking a random opponent from an infinite set.
Notice how I'm taking the 50% assumption and drawing conclusions from it. If these conclusions present an inconsistancy, then the 50% assumption is impossible. I can't take it for a given any more than I could take as given that everyone has a 75% chance of winning. It's like assuming that 1=2. My point is that you have to confirm that your assumption is well defined. If it's not, then that's where the paradox is going to come from.
I think we can appreciate that this is not a real world scenario. My point is however,with only the smallest note in your wallet you cannot lose.Surely this implies no negative whatsoever?
Why aren't you considering that, 50% of the time, you will have negative EV that exactly cancels out your positive EV?
If we're assuming 50% win rate as an absolute condition, then the dollar amounts you win and lose will be the same over time....
Isn't the statement that you have a positive EV misleading? When you WIN, you have a positive EV (based on dollars you won vs. dollars you could have lost), but when you lose, you have a corresponding negative EV (dollars you lost vs. what you could have won)... so there is no "true" positive EV..
or am I wrong?
If your a poker player, you probably should'nt play this game, because its likely you have more money in you pocket than the average opponent, because your carrying the buy-in in case the world's easiest 6-12 game has an open seat. On the other hand, you could be on you way home from the world's easiest 6-12 game with a bunch of bad beat stories to post on 2+2 and you could never lose this game.
and, could this game be played freezout?
bt.
Online Lowest Limit.
You raised preflop with QQ.
5 Callers.
Flop: 6 2 10 rainbow
you bet, 4 callers
turn: 3
you bet, one raised, 2 callers.
do you play on?
you will lose against trips 6
thanks mike
Bad luck Mike.
Where did your raise come from? EP? MP? LP?
Flop looks good for you, if you raised late you won't get a fold in low limit from anyone who has committed money.
Kudos to set flopper who waited until turn to raise after a non-threatening flop.
Hope you get the better end of the stick next time, Mike. Keep plugging away.
Mike
I probably would have called then checked and called the river. In a game like this I would have put the raiser on 2-3 or 4-5. No raise on flop and then a raise when a 3 comes? A red flag would have gone up and I would expect to be behind here. Either the 3 helped his hand or he was slow playing, you don't like either one. The only other hand you could hope the raiser had was a big 10 and it doesn't make any sense to slow play a voulnerable hand like that. But as always it's easy to say after the fact.
Depends on the player. Will this player call with top pair (or JJ) on the flop and then raise the preflop raiser into a 4 player field? Will he bluff or semi-bluff? This is about the only thing you can really hope for to justify a call.
Against most players, I fold. You are probably beat and you have only two outs. Save your money.
Hi guys,
I posted below, but figured I might want to post again here to give this a bit higher exposure.
Besides, I'm giving all the 50/50 guys a face-saving way out, so I thought they'd like to see it.
I think I found the cause of all the confusion. There is a very subtle but important distinction at work here. Bear with me now ...
Before any doors get opened, there are three possible orderings: CGG, GCG, and GGC.
Without loss of generality, let's say you always choose door 1.
Now, if the host opens another door AT RANDOM to reveal a goat (say door number 2), then the second ordering is RULED OUT, and you clearly have a 50/50 shot of getting it right whether you switch or not.
HOWEVER, the host DOES NOT make the selection at random. In the classic phrasing of the paradox, he is FORCED to show you a goat. So now, while he can open door 2 in the first and third cases, in the event that the second ordering is the true one, he is now FORCED to open door 3. This is now a problem in conditional probabilities; hence, my statement about Bayes' Theorem below. It is now clear that switching provides a 2/3 chance at the car.
I wonder how many arguments arise because one side lacks a complete understanding of the problem...
Dave
One sure way to 'get' this one is by trying it.
Lay a pencil, a pen, and a pencil in front of you.
Pretend you can't see them and 'play' the game.
Soon you will find that by switching every time, you win 2/3 of the time.
Try NEVER swithching. You win 1/3 of the time.
Think of it this way.
By never switching, you will win obviously win 1/3 of the time. Well, by always switching you win the other 2/3 of the time.
Dave
Of a all the posts on the topic your statement,
"By never switching, you will win obviously win 1/3 of the time. Well, by always switching you win the other 2/3 of the time"
is the clearest of them all. Thanks for taking the time to boil it down.
Excuse me Dan, not Dave. :)
Made you look
Now, if the host opens another door AT RANDOM to reveal a goat (say door number 2), then the second ordering is RULED OUT, and you clearly have a 50/50 shot of getting it right whether you switch or not. First: Huh? If you never switch you will win 1/3 of the time PERIOD. I didn't read anything in the previous posts that would lead me to believe that anyone misunderstood the problem. In fact the argument they are making is the very obvious one for the problem (its just incorrect). Second: 2/3 of the time the host has NO choice as to which door to open as only one will be a goat and the other will be a car. 1/3 of the time the player will choose the correct door on the first try leaving 2 doors with goats behind them. In this case it doesn't matter which goat the host shows you because you've already lost (assuming you are using the always switch strategy).
For those of you who care, and have access to a C compiler, here is the simulation I coded up last night. just copy and paste it into your favorite compiler. Check my logic and try running it 10000000+ times. The results will always approach 66.7%.
//***************************************** #include void main() { int times, pick, winVar, goat, x; int door[3]; bool done = false; char d; while(!done) {
winVar = 0;
cout << "Enter number of times to run simulation: ";
cin >> times;
srand((int) time(NULL));
for(int i = 1; i <= times; i++)
{
//initialize all doors to zero
for(int j = 0; j < 3; j++)
door[j] = 0;
//get random door for car
x = (int) (3.0 * rand() / RAND_MAX + 1.0);
door [x-1] = 1;
//get random pick
x = (int) (3.0 * rand() / RAND_MAX + 1.0);
pick = x;
//get goat to show
if(door[0] == 0 && pick != 1)
goat = 1;
else if(door[1] == 0 && pick != 2)
goat = 2;
else
goat = 3;
//switch doors
if(goat == 1)
if(pick == 2)
pick = 3;
else
pick = 2;
if(goat == 2)
if(pick == 1)
pick = 3;
else
pick = 1;
if(goat == 3)
if(pick == 1)
pick = 2;
else
pick = 1;
//see if we won
if(door[pick-1] == 1)
winVar++;
} cout << "you won: " << ((double)winVar/times) * 100 << " % of the time." << endl; cout << "run again?
1) everybody in a game theory forum isn't already awware of this problem.
2) so many who participate on this forum don't have an open enough mind to recognize the proper solution when it is explained to them.
3) we haven't decided to settle this the proper way, with a poker tournament, and everybody has to wear a hat with their answer on it '1/3', '1/2', or '2/3' and we can see which fraction is most popular at the final table.
later, and good luck, bt.
Here is one way I have convinvced the skeptics on this issue. What seems to bother them is that since there are two choices on the end (1 winner 1 loser) it must be 50/50 but consider:
Suppose we start we 10 doors (1 winner) and show the contestant 8 losers is there anyone who wouldn't choose to switch, if so I will play against them and give them 2 to 1 odds!
Hi ClovisPkr, guys:
OK ... both you and I know that the answer is to switch, as it doubles your chances of finding the car. As you will recall, I was the first to post the correct answer to your original post.
Now, late last night, depressed from watching the Maple Leafs get eliminated from the playoffs and unable to sleep, I started thinking about how I could shut up the 50/50 people once and for all.
The more I thought about it, the more I wondered whether a semantics difference might be at the heart of the disagreement. Does the nature of the "measurement" (i.e., the goat being revealed) affect things? I'm a PhD student in physics, so I think of things in terms of analogous quantum mechanical systems. In quantum mechanics how you make measurements (and in what order) on the wavefunction does affect the outcome of the experiment.
Now, it seems my reasoning led me to fall into the same trap of fallacious logic as the 50/50 people. So I'll put my reasoning up and point out where I went astray. Hopefully it will be enlightening...
Now, in the paradox as I had originally heard it several years ago, after making your choice, you pull out a gun and force Monty to open another door. Of course, not wanting to lose that easily, he deliberately opens a door with a goat, then offers to allow you to switch.
I wondered whether it matters if the door is opened to show a goat DELIBERATELY, or whether the goat is revealed BY CHANCE.
Imagine a different variation of the game, where you always pick door 1. Then Monty flips a coin: heads ... he opens door 2, tails ... he opens door 3.
Obviously, if the car is revealed, the correct strategy should be obvious to even the most simple minded.
But let's look at what has happened. Before the door opened, there was a 1/3 shot of finding a car behind the door we chose. Now, since there is only 1 car, and we know where that is, there is now a 0% chance that we will also find a car behind our door. Wait a minute, doesn't the paradox rely on the fact that the probability that we guessed correctly does not change with the addition of new information? What went on here?
And here my reasoning took a wrong turn. Now I thought, hmmm .... if in the random selection case, the assumption underlying the paradox breaks down, then 1/3 of the time I obviously switch, and 2/3 of the time, I now have a 50/50 shot, since I rule out one scenario, so the switching is clearly the favourable option ... and, what do you know, but it comes out to 2/3. So both parties get to be right, cool ... and off I go to post. Doh! I hate it when I do that. ;)
But of course, I've screwed up here. (Actually, for those interested, switching becomes an even more favourable option in this game, winning 7/9 of the time.)
The assumption only breaks down when the car is revealed, since we now have an explicit contradiction to our assertion that the car is 33% likely to be behind the door we have chosen. On the other hand, when the goat is revealed, there is no contradiction, AND THE ORIGINAL PROBABILITIES STILL STAND. Opening the door does not affect the fact that you only had a 33% chance of finding the car with your first guess.
True, there are now only two possible arrangements; HOWEVER, they are NOT equally probable. In particular, 33% of the time, the car will be behind the door you originally pick, and 67% of the time, it is behind the only remaining door.
In terms of expected values of cars and goats behind each door, in the format c1,g1/c2,g2/c3,g3, we have
YOUR ORIGINAL GUESS (Door 1): 0.33,0.67 / 0.33,0.67 / 0.33,0.67
IF CAR GETS REVEALED (Door 2): 0,1 / 1,0 / 0,1 (I.e, the wave function is completely collapsed.)
IF GOAT GETS REVEALED (Door 2): 0.33,0.67 / 0,1 / 0.67,0.33
So, unfortunately for the 50/50 guys, they're just plain wrong. The only way their guess is right is if some stage hand accidentally forgets to close a door prior to them making their original guess.
I really shouldn't post to this forum unless fully-awake and sober ...
Dave
Okay, someone verify this one for me:
If there were 4 original doors, instead of 3, and Monty only opened one losing door of the three you didn't choose.... always switching increases your chances 50% (from 25% to 37 1/2%), correct?
It should be clear that even though there are three doors, your chances of winding up with the car are 50%. To see why, consider monty's actions after you choose a door the first time. Regardless of what you do, he will eliminate one of the doors from the running. Therefore, no matter what first choice you make, you are left with two doors, one of which is a winner, the other of which is not. Whether you choose to switch or not makes no difference. I hope that this has cleared up some of the confusion.
Read my above post on expanding the number of doors to 10 intially and narrowing down to 2, then tell me that you think it doesn't matter if you do or don't switch.
Posted by: bob t (rjruler@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 10 May 2001, at 4:02 p.m.
Posted by: Gil Scott (merlin2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 11 May 2001, at 9:39 a.m.
Posted by: Dave Shaw (rshaw@ualberta.ca)
Posted on: Thursday, 10 May 2001, at 6:56 p.m.
Posted by: Easy E
Posted on: Friday, 11 May 2001, at 1:16 p.m.
Posted by: MD
Posted on: Saturday, 12 May 2001, at 5:01 p.m.
Posted by: Gil Scott (merlin2d@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 12 May 2001, at 7:00 p.m.
Does this hand offer any tough decisions at all?
I'm dealt 66 in BB in an online $2-4 game. Everyone folds to the cut-off, who limps. Small blind raises, I call, cut-off call.
Flop comes: 2-5-6 rainbow.
SB bets out, I just call, cut-off raises, SB calls, I call too (I am of course planning to pop it on the turn).
Turn card: A. Checked to cut-off who bets, SB drops, I raise, cut-off re-raise. Is anything but capping an option here? With a slightly bad feeling, I cap it, as it won't get raised back again anyway, and I could be ahead.
River: 9, no possible flush out there. I bet out, cut-off raise...my move. I call.
He shows down A9 for two pair!!
At the river I thought his raise really confirmed that he was either playing AA or the straight (most probably the latter actually), but I can understand my opponents to some extent, after all, he improved on the two streets he got action against him.
lars
You raise the hell out of this hand. You can't be worried about the two miracle hands (9,9 or A,A). If you get beat that is the breaks.
Calling on the river was simply wrong.
I would have also raised on the flop. I think your play was a little fancy on both the flop and the turn (IMHO).
I think you played it right here. When he calls your cap you don't know if you are behind or ahead. When he pops you on the river you have to slow down. I wouldn't have been too surprised to have been beat by the flopped straight here.
Derrick
No, not too difficult. You got the flop you hoped for, now pound the shit out of it. I won't be afraid of either the small blind raising with 3-4 pre-flop, or the cutoff calling with the same (although I've seen it happen). The Ace on the turn poses a problem, though. I would go into check call mode after an exploratory raise on the turn. The 9 on the river would really make me wonder about him value betting an open ended straight draw. I think your only booboo was not immediately raising with your trips on the flop. I've had people come over the top of me with Queen high on paradise, so I won't lay trips down, but I won't overplay them either. Overall, the hand played out pretty well, but I think slowplaying flopped trips is a mistake. There was plenty of action on the flop, so you didn't have to give up the dreaded free card, so no harm done.
Although remotely possible, I would not expect anyone to open limp having four-three even in a low limit game. The small blind is definitely not raising on four-three. I would have found a way to make it three bets or more on the flop. This was a raised pot preflop so the pot is already large. You want to get the money in when you have the best of it. You may have to slow down on a later street if a three or a four appears.
On the turn, checking was a serious mistake. The ace may inhibit the cutoff from betting. You should bet. Having decided to go for a check-raise, when reraised you should cap it. I think with AA the cutoff would have raised preflop most likely. But you will get great action if he has turned two pair.
On the river, I think when raised after showing all that strength on the flop, calling rather than reraising was prudent.
The cutoff should have opened with a raise preflop having Ace-Nine. I think the cutoff overplayed his hand quite a bit once the flop came. I don't like his flop raise with just overcards when the small blind has raised preflop and then comes out firing on the flop. I think that folding on the flop is right. The small blind figures to have a better hand and if the small blind was raising on ace-king or ace-queen or ace-jack suited then the cutoff is badly dominated. When check-raised on the expensive street, his reraise on just top pair was uncalled for. The cutoff played this hand very poorly and got what he deserved.
Jim,
In just about every low limit game I have played in, I regularly run into players open limping with 34, 36, and similar hands. Especially online. It's not even surprising anymore.
People do it so often, it sometimes seems like they ALWAYS bring that garbage home.
I still would have kept raising on the flop and turn and called the river raise.
Nice hand.
I would definitely have reraised on the flop, no one is going anywhere and a straight card might come on the turn. (what do I mean 'Might', a freaking straight card ALWAYS comes on the turn!) Let's get mo money in there when I have the best hand.
On the turn, you are just hoping he's betting that A or a garbage two pair and not the straight, but I would cap it and scream "Pair the Mickey-Frickin' board!!!"
I would also just call the raise on the river, but I am often asked "Sir, does your husband play?"
Talk about overplaying a hand, sheesh, what was the cutoff thinking? Oh wait, it's online. Nevermind.
He basically gave you more money than he should have. There were enough raises for him to realize that his A9 is probably no good but he chose to ignore that information. With this being the case, you have to begin to give him credit for a better hand and only call him down (as you did).
I have thought a lot about this hand and about re-raising on the river and I still think that it is a prudent play in this situation.
I think it is important to remember the game is 2-4PP. I play mostly online and I see people contantly play like the button did (maybe it has something to do with the video game nature of online play and the ease of aggressive play/raising - I don't know).
I used to slow down in this type of situation online and give the guy credit for what he is representing, but not anymore. I think you are simply giving up too much money over the long run -IMHO.
As Dave Shaw already pointed out.
beyond the simple fact that bayes theorem proves it, any further hullabaloo is pointless.
you intended this for Monty Hall, didn't you?
Yes, that was meant for Monte Hall!
It's irritating when people over-analyze and debate forever when the proof is simple and has already been provided once! But it's probably more irritating when some moron posts a message under the wrong thread!
Dave in Cali
I still disagree with you here. You are raising to win 1 extra BB, but if he has the nuts you still have to call him down, right... So you put in 1 BB to win 1 BB, but you are risking 2 BB's (if he re-raises).
Derrick
Hi guys,
Tonight, amongst other things, I got to meet David Ottosen, another poster to this forum, and had the opportunity to spend some time observing his play. We had great fun tangling in turn with a maniac; both of us escaped, for the most part, unscathed. We also tangled once quite spectacularly, but I'm leaving that hand for him to post. (I'm likely to be described as the quasi-maniacal, over-aggressive, mediocre player in his later post, I'm sure ... ;) )
But eventually, David moved to the other table, the maniac went home, and their seats were filled with my favorite kind of opponent ... weak-tight players who try to play well. Hmmm, all the additional tools which are now at my disposal... ;)
PREFLOP
I have Ac Ks in the big blind. (On an unrelated note, all my "big" hands tonight were in the blinds ... made for good practise on blind play.)
At any rate, UTG limps, a tricky kid (TK) in late middle position raises. Folded to SB who cold calls, I smooth call, and UTG calls.
TK has some skills, but he seems to be overly obsessed with making fancy plays. In fact, he reminds me of myself when I'm on tilt. (Whether I'm on tilt during this hand is up to you...)
4 players, 8 small bets.
FLOP: Jc 7d 3c
We all check to TK. He bets, we all call.
Now, in my experience, TK will stab at it with overcards on both the flop and the turn, but will back off on the river. Of course, he will also play analogously with pairs or better. But I think I have odds to call here, getting at least 10 to 1 on my call.
4 players, 6 big bets in the pot.
TURN: Th
We all check to TK, he bets, we call. (I'm not so sure I like this call ...)
4 players, 10 big bets.
RIVER: 6c
SB checks. UTG is a woman who has a bad habit of mucking out of turn, which she has been doing fairly regularly for the past hour. I pause to think, and she mucks. I decide that I now have a shot at a bluff given my image... SB is not the kind of player to check his made flush hoping for someone else to bet his hand. TK will obviously muck his overcards, but may also lay down second pair or worse ... he loves making "big laydowns." I think that I have a better than 10 to 1 shot at getting both to fold, so I fire.
The bluff works, with TK showing Ad Kd as he folds, and griping about how many outs he had.
Now, to this point, I had been running very well, and I was naturally pumped about pulling off this bluff. However, I do have a tendency to go on "happy tilt" when running well ... I have been known to start thinking I'm "God's gift to poker," and start making ill-advised overly-fancy plays. I took this hand as a potential warning sign, played one more round, and left.
What do you guys think ... did I get a little too carried away here?
Dave
Did you consider a check raise on the turn? A river bluff is called by a lot of players and really TK should have called you (and you still would have got 1/2 the pot!).
I fall into the same trap when I'm rumming good and have a lot of chips in front of me, "happy tilt" is a good term.
If I was going to make a play at this pot (and its a big if; reading Cloutier's book gives a whole new perspective on AK), I would do it on the turn with a checkraise to set up my bet on the river. I think this has a better chance of working than a stone cold bet on the river out of nowhere.
I don't like the lack of planning in this hand however. You are passively calling all the way and you (looking at your cards) can't really be planning anything other than a lucky cartch or an almost stone cold bluff on the river. Ok if thats your plan. However if I decide I am going to try to win this pot (in essence) without a hand, then I checkraise the turn and fire out on the river.
I guess my question is why are you check-calling the turn? After re-reading your post, I notice you indicate some dissatisfaction here. I can live with the non reraise preflop, and I can live with the check call on the flop, and the river bet out is a maybe (I think; most of the time someone will call you down), but the turn is the place to win this pot. In fact, the same result happens, but you win an extra bet or two now.
David "Never give me QJo again" Ottosen
Seems risky with a player between you and the TK. I am assuming you would only make this if the SB did not call, right?
I still think that you and David are discounting the very real possibility that the TK has a legit big hand (AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AJ).
This player really only works if the TK has AK or AQ AND you get a good bluff card on the end, AND that card does not help any of the other players. That is a lot of uncertainty.
KJS
A good read but I think you mostly just got lucky. If you did not have a flush to bluff at on the river, you are basically looking at throwing away quite a few bets out of position with just overcards. Like David said, the pre-flop nonraise is OK and maybe the check-call on the flop. (Personally, I hate to check and call without a strong draw. Yours is not very strong here, IMO). Now the turn--are you enticed by the gutshot draw you picked up, perhaps? Anyway, now you are just playing weak poker. Do you have a hand or are you just fishing? If you have a hand, bet it. If not, dump it, plain and simple. (I think David's checkraise play is not recommended in a multiway situation).
OK on the river you make a move and it works. Like I said, good read. Still, bluffing into someone who has bet the whole way with a passive check-caller (SB) still in is not a very good spot, IMO. If TK calls with AA, KK, QQ or SB with jacks, even a baby flush, you are looking pretty foolish.
The way I see it, you are in the hand because you are drawing to a pair. That gives you six outs and no guarantee your pair is good. Let's not forget that TK raised pre-flop and bet out on the flop and turn. You cannot discount KK or AA (yes they are less likely because you hold AK, but him holding AK also is too, do you want to draw to 1/2 the pot?). Plus you have two other callers on the flop and turn, which means you are stuck if the Kc comes and they bet out. Nowhere in your post do you speculate what others are playing. I think that you got lucky that the raiser had only AK (AQ is the only other hand that might work for your play) and the third club came on the end, helping nobody.
I think you did overdid it, first by chasing too long with no hand and bad position, and second by stabbing in the dark at a big pot with two players in, one of which has reprented a made hand the whole way. Get out of these spots earlier and I think your bankroll be better off.
Just my 2c.
KJS
But on the surface it doesn't seem like you played the hand all that poorly. The flop call is a bit suspect, but on the turn you're getting 9-1 on a 11-1 shot, plus you have overcards which may be good, AND you'll probably get called in a couple spots if you hit, which means-- essentially-- that you're getting even money for the gutter, since all the Q's are clean outs. Who knows? You could catch the kid with pocket J's if the Q hits, and he may go off for a couple bets, with someone with a T or a goofy two pair caught in between.
The river bet is just player dependent, but then, if you're not playing the players you're not playing poker. I don't know if it was a well played hand but you certainly didn't play it badly. If anything, playing it this way in the long run should break about even.
I'm glad I left when I did, since today, rereading the play without the adrenalin in my veins, it's clear that I was on "happy tilt."
What likely happened was that after listening to TK go on and on about how great a poker player he was, showing off his ability to make impressive laydowns, make tricky plays, etc, ol' Dave figured it was time to give him a bit of a schooling. My play seems to be targeting TK exclusively, without regard for the other two players in the hand.
This is still one major weakness in my game ... from time to time, somebody in the game just rubs me the wrong way. Usually, it's someone with an ego that need to be cut down to size. I end up targeting them subconciously, and while, as happened here, I often get away with it, I'm not playing my A game.
In this hand, I should have 3-bet preflop. Assuming that AKs is not a capping hand for TK, I now take control and can drive the action. If I get heads-up on the turn, now I can try to steal from him, otherwise, I think folding is the better option. (Since I'm likely drawing to a split at best.)
As I played it, I was lucky the "planets were aligned" to come out victorious.
Dave
What are some of the things you should be aware of, the first time you play Low Limit Poker at a casino?
Thankyou for all your replies
From the kitchen to the casinos.
Look for the basic cardroom rules. They are usually posted somewhere on the walls in the cardroom.
Be aware of the guidelines of the game you are going to be playing.
Ask the floorman or brush any specific questions of things you may be unsure of. They will be glad to help.
This list can go on and on. Hopefully others will chime in on this one.
Welcome to the poker world.
Kind regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
Here's a link to an article you might find helpful:
http://poker.casino.com/articles/first_time_legal_cardroom.shtml
If you do a google seargh on "First time in a cardroom", you will find other links.
Good Luck. Have Fun. Play tight.
All strategy considerations aside, the most important things for your first attempt at casino poker involve ettiquette.
The ABSOLUTE MOST IMPORTANT THING BY FAR IS TO PROTECT YOUR HAND.
Place your bet in front of you, don't splash the pot.
State clearly and loudly so the dealer can hear it what your action is, such as RAISE OR BET. You don't have to yell out when you are folding, just do it in turn. People get pissed when you string raise, and the dealer will probably make you take it back.
Know the rules and ettiquette of table stakes, that is how games are played.
Don't discuss your cards or someone else's during the play of a hand. people get pissed when you violate the one player to a hand rule.
Act in turn.
If you need time to think, call "time".
Always slowplay aces no matter what. just check and call every single time until the river, when you will finally raise, no matter what the board or the previous action.
Well, maybe not that last one... The rest were serious though....
Dave in Cali
A detailed answer to your question is available in rec.gambling.poker's Frequently Asked Questions about Poker:
http://www.conjelco.com/faq/poker.html#P5
A mistake I made the 1st time out was saying "Let me check" as I was looking at my hole cards. Should have said "time"
Have Fun!
good luck, bt.
Here are a few things I remember the first time I played int he casino. Things depends on how much you know, it is better if you have read some things and you know that you play better than your opponents.
However the first time you probably will be nervous (I was), and everyone will be able to tell that and try and "take advantage" of it.
People will be terrible sticklers for technicalities you will hear string raise, or variants like this. I guess declaring all raising and betting intentions is a good idea, dont let the dealers or players push you around. If you think something unfair happened (or is happening call the floor immediately) You may get the impression some of your opponents aren't very nice and some of them aren't!
Don't throw away your hand until the dealer pushes you the pot (or tells you have a loser on the river).
If the board is a straight and you throw your hand away someone who is also playing the board may take the whole pot.
You should learn to look at your cards in a way so that no one looking at you can tell what they are.
Remember the cards you have and their suits so you don't ahve to look back later.
You will see people do some dumb things, try not to comment or looked too shocked. (THis is still very hard for me, especially keeping my mouth shut).
GOOD LUCK!
ok so Dave Shaw mentions earlier that we played a crazy hand together so here it is:
Due to some people wandering, we are playing 5 handed 3-6. I am in SB, Dave in BB, and other players in the hand are just average weak players.
I get QJo in SB, 3 limp to me, I call, Dave raises, all call to me, I reluctantly call (5 BB in pot).
Flop: J-8-4 twotone (yay I have the Q of the twotone suit)
Dave gives a noticeable tell, and I can see he is happy with the flop. He bets, 2 drop, woman on button (WOB) calls, I decide to throw in a checkraise to see if Im up against an overpair or just AK. Dave reraises, and WOB and I call, and I am planning to dump on the turn if I don't improve (9.5 BB in pot)
Turn: offsuit Q
I give a second to think. What did it mean that Dave was happy with the flop? I'm thinking he has an overpair, and was happy not to see an ace on the flop, so I figure him for KK. I check, planning another checkraise, Dave bets, WOB raises. Hmm, where did that come from? I call, Dave reraises, and WOB caps (19.5 BB in pot).
Your action?
David "Didnt let Shaw get away with any of that tight image crapola!" Ottosen
As you might guess by the title of the post, this was an alignment of planets hand, where everyone had a big hand and everyone lost a lot except for one person who made a lot.
To recap, Board is QJ84, and I have QJ. I have called 12 cold on the turn, and it has been reraised and capped back to me.
I ask for time as Dave acts out of turn and calls (don't think I didn't notice that!). Given that I have a QJ, and there is a QJ on board, its unlikely Dave has QQ or JJ, or at least certainly less likely than him having AA or KK. Add to that the WOB is betting hard, Im thinking she must have a piece of the board, making his QQ or JJ unlikely. Having "put Dave on a hand", now I have to decide what hand the WOB has. QQ or JJ she would raise preflop. 88 or 44 she would have been betting on the flop (she's a straightforward type player, no bluffing or slowplaying usually). Given these factors, I decided there was a strong chance she also had QJ, which reinforced my read on Dave's hand.
River is the blank of the ages, something that could not have helped anyone.
I check, Dave checks, she bets, we both call (22.5 BB in the pot)
I show top two.
Dave shows JJ.
She shows 9-10 for the straight which never even occurred to me??
Nice pot for a 5 person game. Any comments on my play (or Dave's play) welcome.
David "ugh" Ottosen
nt
Any comments on my play (or Dave's play) welcome.
stop checkraising and just bet out so dave will raise you so you have a chance to knock out the gutshot draw.
oops. and while you do that ill work on my reading comprehension.
obviously, you dont know she has a straight(not gutshot) draw. and there is no way a weak player will fold that draw. and its probably correct to call all the way anyway. you couldnt have won this hand with different betting action, and your buddy couldnt either (with same cards falling, ie you couldnt get this lady to fold)
but anyway, your hand isnt that strong, and any K or A is a pretty scary card.
since the preflop raiser is on your left, bet into him and have him help you thin the field in case someone is holding a weak ace. if he was the button then maybe consider check-raising, in this case you want to thin the field, not build a pot.
The short answer, you got trapped. Oh well, it happens. That is sometimes the problem with being in the blinds. You limp, because it is cheap and then you flop top pair. The check-raise was also correct for the reasons you described. When BB re-raised, he let you know that he has at least an overpair.(or at least he is representing that) That was the information you were trying to get. When you made two pair on the turn, and BB got raised by the button, now you have fear, and calling is marginal. I probably put her on a set. But when she caps it, I then know that she at least has a set. Thinking she has two pair (QJ) at this point is just wrong. If she had this hand, wouldn't it be wise to raise on the flop, to try and make it heads up with the BB? At this point you have to know you are drawing. And maybe drawing dead. I put your partner on at least a set of Jacks. But I would more likely think a set of Queens. Why would he re-raise here w/o that strength. He(incorrectly) thinks the button is on a set of 8's or 4's that she was slowplaying. I would have to come to the conclusion that now is the time to go.
It would be very hard for you to get away from this hand. I haven't yet read the results, but I wouldn't put Dave Shaw on an overpair on the turn because he 3 bet. If he had A's or K's, playing against a weak player, I think he would just call... therefore, I think he has a set either Q's or J's. Because the board is twotone, I think he would play J's aggresively on the flop, so his 3 bet on the flop definitely doesn't eliminate the set of J's. I think he would also 3 bet an overpair here, so Q's are equally as likely.
On the turn when the weak straight forward player caps it, you can put her on the nut straight.
I am betting you were in 3rd place on the river. This is tough to take when you are playing 3 handed and turned top 2 pair.
Derrick
Unless everyone's lost their mind, callng on the end is probably slightly negative, if you account for the rare disaster where someone has QQ/JJ instead of 88 vs. the straight. It's certainly not positive by more than pennies, but it doesn't make much difference.
If you're sure it wasn't an acting tell I wouldn't have check-raised on the flop. With an overpair the raiser is where he expected to be on the flop, and hasn't really improved. Smells more like a set, although most 3-6 players won't raise in the blind with 88, even (perhaps especially) short-handed.
I would have bet the turn an folded to the kind of automatic raise that says he has more than a pair. Having checked and facing a bet an a raise from a cold-cold on the flop after the straight became possible, I'd fold here too.
OTOH, your post suggests that the game is kind of crazy. In this kind of game you can't go too far wrong by paying them off with your good hands, but can make disasterous mistakes by folding them.
WOB probably has T9 and just made a straight. You are drawing to four outs most of the time here, but it is possible Dave Shaw may have AQ or QQ, if he has AQ he is trying to pull that tight image crapola on you! (realistically, AQ is not very likely). The other possible hand he might have is JJ. I think it is very unlikely you have the best hand here, and with the possibility of QQ or JJ, you have few or no outs if that is the case. I think it's a fold. Anxious to see the other responses and results.
However, given that the planets ARE all aligned, perhaps you should call it down.
Dave in Cali
F
You get a noticeable tell that he like the flop and you go ahead and check-raise Q-J. That's just laughable. You picked up this tell and still proceeded to get gutted on every street to the river. If you use your information like this, you might as well stop trying to find tells.
I basically agree with you, he should have folded.
I think you meant to post this under the original thread though...?
yeah, I never post where I should.
I don't like your check raise after the flop. You said you raised to find out what your up against, when reraised, didn't that give you the information you were looking for? I think the rest of your pre-flop and to the end play was fine, though you should kick yourself for not to have considered the stright coming.
It appears Im a fishy calling station.
Thanks all for responses.
You get a tell that someone has a big hand and then checkraise with a so-so one? This is not logical.
I would bet out, call the raise on the flop and check-fold the turn.
With QJ in the SB after a raise, a J high flop is not really what I want to see. I can be second best many ways. Still, its worth a bit to find out where you are. Checkraising really doesn't tell you much, except that people in 3-6 games will call a checkraise after they bet (or call). You probably need to follow up with a turn bet to really find out if anyone will laydown. Now have put in 3 bets at a marginal chance you can win a showdown and a worse chance you can win the pot right there. That or you run up against two big hands and wonder why you threw in all that money trying to push them off their hands.
Seems like "bet your way to victory" is the theme today. Not a good for LL IMO.
KJS
Hmmm, I guess I shouldn't make vigorous hip-thrusting motions and shout "Who's your daddy!" whenever I flop a set, huh?
At any rate, I'm not entirely happy with raising JJ 5-handed from the big blind. This is kind of in the no-mans land; however, we've been playing shorthanded for a while now, and I've been getting nothing but garbage. The raise is more a statement that I'm not going timid and soft in this shorthanded game.
On the flop, as Derrick alludes, the board is two-tone, so I want to play the set as fast as possible.
Now, when David check-raises me (oh, the impudence :) ) I'm obviously going to reraise. But I'm a little curious as to what he might have. With top pair, I think he might have wanted to bet and hope I raise and thin the field. An overpair I should have heard about pre-flop. In fact, this seems a little bit more like a play I might make with the nut diamonds draw, raising for value and hoping the original raiser is making a desperate stab at the pot with overcards so there's no 3-bet. Two pair is unlikely, as I doubt 84, J4, and even J8 is dubious given that I know where three of the four jacks are. If this is going to be set over set, I'll find out soon, but at least I'm on the right end of it.
I love the turn card. It likely makes somebody a very nice 2nd best hand, although it does make a straight possible. So of course I lead, and now WOB raises. Hmmmm, how does this improve her? Would she raise AQin this situation? Perhaps, but I'm not certain. QJ? Unlikely, but possible. Q8 possible. Slowplayed set? QQ I should have heard about earlier, but maybe. Straight, possibly.
Well, I'm not going to live in fear of the nuts, so I'm going to reraise; besides, if, in fact, I am behind, I have 10 outs anyways.
The cap now screams that WOB has a straight. I'm a little bemused by the fact that David O is still calling ... this tends to support my guess that he's holding the nut flush draw. Maybe QJ, but unlikely given my hand.
So, I'm personally praying for a diamond to come which pairs the board, but no such luck, the river blanks off.
I check and call. I'm a little surprised to see QdJs in David O's hand, WOB of course shows T9o.
------------------------
Given that David O held QJ, I definitely think he should have bet into me on the flop, hoping I'd raise to narrow the field for him. Mind you, given the two-tone flop and the straight draw, we likely aren't getting anybody out with a an UZI and a ski-mask, let alone one measly raise.
But in an ideal world, he has a better chance at getting it heads up with me, and then he can check and call, hoping that I'm trying to pull that tight image crapola.
With top two on the turn in his position, I might call the first two bets, but after the 3-bet from a better than average player and the 4-bet from a straightworward playing weak player, I might seriously conisder folding my 4 out (or less) hand.
At any rate, my two cents worth,
Dave
button has 9To, BB has JJ or 88
nate
This hand occured recently and I'm wondering how horribly I played it...
Online 1-2 game, the game seems loose as always... I just recently sat down so no solid reads on the players yet.
Anyway, I'm in the big blind and find T/2 of hearts. 3 limpers to me and I check...
Flop: Td 9d 2d.
It's a decent flop for me but it's also dangerous. I bet out. (Maybe i should have gone for a checkraise?) Anyway, mid-position (MP) player calls and a late-position player calls (LP). They could have anything from a gutshot or an underpair to a made flush, theese 1-2 players just love calling...
Turn: 9 s, Board: Td 9d 9s 2d
Ugh, not a card I wanted to see.
Question: What do I do now? check/bet?
I decide to bet thinking that my T-nokicker might be good anyway. This was probably the first mistake in the hand. Both of the limpers call.
River is a total blank. I check, MP checks, LP bets.
Next question: fold/call?
This is my biggest mistake in the hand I think, I call and get beaten by his A9.
I belive the river call was bad, what hands would he bet here that I can beat except pure bluffs. Ah well, I'm still learning.
Flame away...
Sincerly, Andreas
I think that you played the hand fine. Couldn't he be betting something like a draw that didn't get there. Remember, for your call to be correct, you only have to win a small percentage of the time due to the size of the pot.
I dont think that you played this hand that poorly, I probably would have played it the same way. When your opponent only calls the turn, and then bets on the river, he could have overcards or QJ or J8 and just be trying to steal, I think you have to call.
Good luck, bt.
On the flop, your lead bet into 3 opponents with top and bottom pair is correct. But you must realize that you are extremely vulnerable when the board flops all of one suit and you do not have a card in that suit. When two of your three opponents call your flop bet you could be in trouble. Probably one of them is on a flush draw or he could be slow playing a flush. The other caller could easily have a bigger ten but not raise because of the single suited flop. If one caller is hanging around with middle pair and a flush draw then the board pairing on the turn now gives him the best hand. Nevertheless, I think your turn bet is right given the lack of raising by anyone and the fact that you have only two opponents. When they both call, I think you are done with this hand unless you make a full house at the river. At the river, the last guy bet and you are faced with tough decision. The problem is that he could be betting a busted flush draw and your hand might be good. It is a tough situation. You do have a man behind you. I would call but I would expect to be beat the vast majority of the time. Folding may not be too far wrong here. It would be nice to know if the last guy to act is giving any cues as to whether or not he will call. If you think the guy will call the bettor then this would strengthen the case for folding.
Many will bluff in these situations, where people are likely to have missed flopped flush/straight draws (of course, chasing the straight on a suited flop is suicidal, but there you go, this is $1/2).
I think it's alright to call this one down.
lars
Wow, I find myself disagreeing with Mason and Jim here.
On the turn your 2 became pretty much worthless excpet as a 2-outer to the full house if you see another card.
Against 2 opponents I check and fold on the turn. What could they have? The best scenario is that both are on flush draws. Even if this is the case, it is likely that you are against 2-4 overcards which means there may be as many as 20 outs against you. The chance of one of those hitting plus the chance that you may already be beat by any T, 9 or made flush makes this a hand I probably give up on here. There are only 3.5 big bets in the pot and you are looking at calling/betting 2 more. I don't think you win this the 1/3 of the time you need to.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
How come you haven't moved up the limits? Are you playing it extra safe with your bankroll? Just curious cause, I think its pretty clear to most that you would make more if you moved up the limits
JV
There are several reasons why I haven't decided to move up yet.
First off, I don't play for a living, so the money is not that important. I have a degree and a good job which I go to 40 hours a week. There is no pressure to move up because of money. I could play up to about 10-20 if I so chose.
Second, I play partially for enjoyment as well. In general, I have not found my excursions to the higher limits to be much fun. The people seem to be overall less friendly, probably because they are much more worried about their money. Also, the players are better and more aggressive. Low limit games are usually fun to be in. If it's not fun, I am not that concerned about my hour earn anymore, I am simply ready to leave. Since there is so much selection of cardrooms and games around my area, I can afford to leave if conditions aren't optimal. My life is such right now that I don't really want the added stress and pressure of moving up to higher limits, even though I can afford to do so.
Another reason is that the Lucky Lady is right down the street from my house. The food is great and the staff is nice. It is also the cheapest place to play I have seen anywhere in the country so far. They have time charges, not rakes or drops, and it's 3$/half hour for 3-6, and 4$/half for up to 8-16. [because of the proportionately lower cost of 8-16, ie 1 SB/hour, I have been bugging myself to play in this game more often, but read on...]. All games are kill games, so the stakes are effectively somewhat higher because of this. With plenty of loose players, kill pots are common. The rest of the available places to play all have drops, usually 3$/hand after the flop, sometimes with a jackpot drop. I will not play in any games that have a dead drop on the button, period. Luckily, I live in an area where I have an alternative. With a drop, I would have to take more risk to make the same amount of money, and meanwhile pay the house more. Suppose I can make 12$ an hour playing 3-6 at the lucky lady, paying 3$/half hour. To beat a drop game for the same rate, where the drop probably averages 12$ an hour, I would have to play higher stakes to make the same hourly rate.
As far as the lucky lady goes, it's a combination of the low cost of play (which means I beat the game at a higher rate), enjoyment, very easy games, and laziness, because it's five minutes from my house. The games at the LL are usually loose aggressive, sometimes they might be more passive than other times. Tight games are rare, good games are the norm. The 8-16 game is usually very aggressive, sometimes everyone at the table being overly aggressive or even quasi-maniac. The 8-16 game also tends to be much less friendly than the 3-6 or 4-8 games. While I will occasionally play in the 8-16 game at the lucky lady, if I were to play any higher than 8-16, I would have to go to Oceans-11, which is a 40 minute drive, IF there is no traffic. Oceans-11 is considerably more expensive to play at than the lucky lady. The lucky lady gives me a nice supplemental income, relaxation, good food (the chinese is so good, you could go there just to eat dinner), and I have to do little work to obtain these things. Also, playing there gives me plenty to write about.
A final reason why I don't move up is that I am at a place in my life right now where it is neither required nor desired. Priorities you know... poker has just not taken that high of a priority. I have plenty to do each week, including work, hanging out with my brother, sister, and adopted sister, and keeping up my status as a social butterfly within the local nightclub scene. Plus girl chasing, that's always top priority!
I WILL eventually decide to move up in stakes on a regular basis, but it probably won't happen this week. I am one of the rare low limit players who is actually a good player. I may start playing in higher stake games more often on my regular trips to vegas, where there is a large selection of games, and where I can play higher stakes without having to pay a drop. Again though, my top priority for poker (and my vegas trips) is enjoyment (although I am dead serious about playing a winning game). If that means I play low limits more than anything else, so be it.
Dave in Cali
I sit in a 10-handed 3/6 game (online). The game is incredibly tight for this level (18%!!!), and quite aggressive (not a good game to be in, I know)
Anyway, I get AcQh in the cut-off. Next to UTG (NTH) raises, and it is folded to me. NTH is tight (there is only one fairly loose player at the table, but he's not in the pot). I 3-bet to get it heads up. SB calls however, and NTH caps, SB and i call.
Flop: Qs 6s Ah
SB checks, NTH bets, I raise, SB cold calls, NTH 3-bets, I cap and SB call as does NTH.
Turn: Js
SB checks, NTH bets, I call, SB calls. Before I called there were 13.5 BB in the pot, so enough to draw to a 4 outer. I strongly suspect I am drawing. Because what could NTH have? I think the only possible hand I can beat is AK, and I really doubt he would cap with it preflop. He might have AQ also (but again, fairly unlikely given preflop action). KK also seems unlikely given flop action. The way he played surely suggests QQ or AA IMO, but also fairly unlikely holdings given my holding. I firstly figured SB for a strong ace, maybe a flush draw, but then he would raise the turn. So I strongly think I'm beat by NTH, and there's a good chance that I beat SB IMO.
River: 7s
SB checks, NTH bets. I fold. I know the pot is big, but if someone can name me a hand I can beat at this moment, given my opponents where good players (I've played some hours with them) I would like to hear it. Given my opponents, I think the chance of hands like AK or KK without a spade are close to zero, but I could be wrong. I'm still wondering if I should have called (maybe only therefore I should have called :))
Thanks
I think my thinking on the turn is a bit flawed, because when he has AA or QQ, I'm down to 2 outs (with QQ) and drawing dead to AA.
So plz comment my turn call as well.
Thanks
IMO, your river fold would be a correct play.
What I'd like to focus on is the turn card. After being reraised preflop and on the flop, NTH fires into you again on the turn. He's obviously not skeered. IMO, your hand is no good here at this point. If NTH has AK, I don't think he fires here as he could well put you on AQ as a possible hand. I have to rule out KK here, to cap it on the flop then fire again takes a set of brass ones.
Think you could have saved some big bets on the turn with a good (and very tough) laydown.
Notwithstanding the river, with 4 spades on board, you probably are now the worst of the 3. NTH probably makes crying call with his (presumed) set of A. SB counts his lucky stars and stacks a nice pot.
Unlucky for you my friend
Best wishes, Mike
I would have called... Either fold the turn or call the river...
Even though I often find myself in the trap that I'll call the river just because it's just "one more bet"...
I still feel that my first instinct is good though, either fold the turn or call the river.
Beeing a calling station on the river isn't a that horrible. If this was the occasional laydown it might be OK. But I feel that even you will probably loose more then you win that given the pot size you have an automatic call. He probably has AA or QQ but if you're ahead 10% of the time you're making money...
Just my drunk ramblings...
Sincerly, Andreas
Bla bla bla, replace: But I feel that even you will probably loose more then you win...
with: But I feel that even you will probably loose more then often then you win...
The point is that dropping top two on the river will often be a bad play. If you run in to me (especially in a shorthanded game.) you might see the same play with AK. But I play pretty (maybe overly so) agressive shorthanded.
The river bet is not certain but I might bet it just to charge you for my kicker...
Sincerly once again, Andreas
Ikke,
With AQo against a tight early raiser, with no cold-callers in between, strongly consider folding preflop. This is a subject which has been debated at length on this forum (and I don't want to reignite some of the flames), but a tight early raiser is very likely to hold a hand which badly dominates you.
But, having decided to play, 3-betting is probably better than just calling, hopefully allowing heads-up play with the raiser. Of course, it ends up 3-way in a capped pot, but you can't always get what you want.
What kind of player is the SB to call 3 cold? If he is at all reasonable, this should be setting off warning bells in your head.
But you get a favourable flop, and play it fast. Good show. Given your hand and the flop, you shouldn't be overly afraid of AA or QQ, since there's only 1 way he can have each of them. Let's take a look: AA (1 way), AK (4 ways), AQ (4 ways), KK (6 ways), QQ (1 way). I'm going to assume that NTH is not going to give you all that action with something like JJ or AJ. So, out of 16 possibilities, you are leading in 10, tied in 4, and behind in 2. As I said, a favourable flop.
So now the third spade comes. NTH continues to show strength, despite your capping the action on the previous round. In this case, I'm actually more worried about SB ... why is he sticking around for so long, cold-calling bets left right and center? His play smacks of a draw. But we don't hear anything from him, so maybe he's got an ace and a big spade?
I think calling here is fine, but, as you note, all of your outs may not be clean.
On the river, with the 4th spade, you are likely beat. However, when it is up to you, you are getting 16.5 to 1 on a call. You only need to be good 2 times out of 35 to make this +EV. I'd make the call, although I'm very sure I'm dead. (Of course, if SB checkraises now, and NTH 3-bets, then I'm gone.)
All in all, I think you played passable, but not great poker.
Best of it,
Dave
"With AQo against a tight early raiser, with no cold-callers in between, strongly consider folding preflop. This is a subject which has been debated at length on this forum (and I don't want to reignite some of the flames),..."
Do you know where I can find that discussion?
"So, out of 16 possibilities, you are leading in 10, tied in 4, and behind in 2 "
I dont think you can put it this way, because he would never play KK on the flop like he did IMO.
"So now the third spade comes. NTH continues to show strength, despite your capping the action on the previous round. In this case, I'm actually more worried about SB ... why is he sticking around for so long, cold-calling bets left right and center? His play smacks of a draw. But we don't hear anything from him, so maybe he's got an ace and a big spade?"
Exactly my thoughts, I put him firstly on a draw, but now that he just calls the turn I suspect he has something like AK. I strongly suspected a check-raise from the SB on the turn.
"All in all, I think you played passable, but not great poker"
Was folding preflop the great play?
Thanks for your answer.
For the entire AQo argument/discussion, etc., check the Archives for the Texas Hold'em (General) forum in May and June 2000.
BTW, this is the debate that led in large part to Steve Badger leaving the forum, and asking that his postings be deleted.
Upon rereading your narrative, I agree that it is unlikely that your opponent would 3-bet that flop with KK. But even in that case, you are still ahead 4 times, tied 4 times, and behind 2 times.
Of course, if your opponent holds AQ with a spade, then he is free rolling on you, and you are not in is good a position as it appears.
Was folding preflop the great play?
In this situation, folding AQo is very likely the best play preflop.
I would also note that making big laydowns should be more of a concern in no-limit or pot-limit poker than in limit poker ... in limit poker, even if you do call incorrectly on the end, it is usually only a fraction of a bet mistake in the long run. In this particular situation, the pot is large enough on the river that you only need a 5.7% chance that your hand is good to make the call +EV. Are you 95% sure that you are beat?
Best of it,
Dave
Folding pre-flop is definitely a consideration when to take into account the fact that you'll only hit 1 time out of 3, and there's no guarantee you'll be ahead when you do. Further, if he does have something like KK or JJ (or QQ) and you do flop the A, he's going to back off. However, you're going to pay through the nose when you hit and you're behind, which makes this a classic case of reverse implied odds.
That said, once you do catch the magic flop there isn't much you can do. I'd probably raise the turn, hoping to check it down, then wince if three bet and maybe-- MAYBE-- muck on the river. But that wouldn't be an easy laydown, and much of my decision would be based on what the blind did.
Haven't been to sin city in a couple of years, but got the boss to spring for a convention trip in early August. I guess I'm looking for those 3-6-12 and 4-8 loose/passive players that I've come to love and profit from here in Louisiana. So the question: Currently, where are THOSE games to be found in Vegas? The convention is a Thursday-Saturday, but I'm flying in on Wednesday and leaving Monday to have more time to play. You know the kind of players I'm looking for. They're in Vegas for the weekend, or a fews days, and just want to play...play every hand. On a side note, the Monty Hall Paradox went over well at work this week, thanks guys and gals.
Hey Zuluking,
I've been to Vegas 6 times last year. While I was there, the best game that I found was the 4-8-8 game at the Mandalay Bay Casino. The game tended to be very loose-aggressive when I played, mostly during the evening hours. I'd highly recommend a stop there, it's a nice room, fairly new, and the staff is wonderful.
Of course, the Mirage poker room is really nice too. That goes without saying, too many locals tend to hang out there though. Check out the tourneys there, especially the N/L hold em. Action tends to be really intense.
Finally, the Bellagio boasts some really loose 4-8 and 6-12 games, especially during the evening hours.
Word of warning, try to avoid the spread limit 2-6 game at the Excalibur. Everyone's on a first name basis, zzzz... boring.
Good luck and best wishes, Mike
Hey thanks for the info Mike. The convention is taking place at the Mandalay Bay, so I'm hoping those loose players will be there. Anyone else?
I'd go over to Bellagio. Mandalay may have an easy game (and it's a 1-4-8-8 game which kind of makes it easier in some ways), but it is a small room and you don't have much game selection so you could get stuck in a bad game. At Bellagio they will have a whole bunch of 4-8 tables going with some truely bad players so you can do some scouting while you wait for a seat and figure out which table you'd like to move to if you get a seat at one you don't like. The same could be said for the 8-16 at times (and perhaps the 15-30).
If you don't have time to stray from Mandalay you can cross over to Luxor which is connected. They also spread 1-4-8-8. It's a game mostly of weak passive rocks who are easy to read and push around (at least the time I played there). Another thing you can do is play the morning tournaments at both places.
I agree with staying away from Excalibur. It's a horrible game unless there are some drunk tourists who wandered in. They did once spread a 2-10 spread limit game when I was there which was fun but the bad players got cleaned out real fast and game broke within 2 hours (one guy got on a rush and cleared $500 while I took another $150 and that was pretty much it).
Good luck!
Paul Talbot
Thanks for the info Paul. I plan on playing some morning tournaments on Sunday and Monday. But I really want those loose/passive fish in for the weekend. I'll scope out Bellagio for sure. Anybody know how the games are at the MGM Grand, and New York New York? And, thanks for the tip on Excalibur.
You won't find any action at MGM or NY NY for one reason, there are no poker rooms there.
I forgot about the Luxor, thanx for including that in your post, Paul. Yeah, I got to agree with you there. I played in one tournament and a cash game there. Made money in the tourney and the game, however, I got bored really fast. If you want to practice in a game full of rox and the occasional tourist, visit the Luxor.
One more tidbit, and I completely forgot this. If you want some tournament action, go visit the Orleans. Their tournaments usually attract some good competition and a very fair prize pool. If you want to test your mettle, the Orleans runs a close second to the NL at the Mirage. The hotel is located off the strip across I-15, but you can see it from the strip.
Hope this helps.
Mike
5-10 Hold 'Em at the Taj. I'm on the button with A-Jo. Everyone folds to the cut-off (a weak player with loose raising standards) who raises to $10. I see that the blinds look like they are about to fold so I just call (right or wrong?). The blinds do fold. Flop comes J-6-3 rainbow. Cut-off bets, I decide to just call and wait for the turn to raise (right or wrong?). Turn pairs the board with a 6. Cut-off bets, I raise to $20, he flinches and calls. River is a rag, he checks, I bet, he calls. He shows pocket 3's for the full house. Did I lose to much? He said he thought I had jacks full on the turn. I am pretty sure he played this hand badly, but how did I do? All comments appreciated.
Jeff
Given what you know about the cutoff, I would three bet him with ace-jack offsuit just to make sure the blinds fold and to take control of the hand. I would raise his flop bet with top pair, top kicker because you cannot be sure the turn will get bet by him. Overall, you played okay. Your opponent learned poker in a forest.
I agree that one ought to three bet here as a rule, but if he's the type who makes a crying call with an underfull on the turn God knows what kinds of pre-flop raising standards he has (in this case I guess we know they're liberal, but this type usually won't pop it here without at least a group II hand).
The problem with the turn raise is that you're not likely to get called unless you're behind, and if it goes to three bets you're in trouble. Ordinarily I'd play it like Jim recommends and raise the flop, and hope to get called down by pocket 7's, but if the other guy is real aggressive (which this guy wasn't) I might wait untill the turn, then shrug my shoulders and call him down if I'm three bet.
Bummer of a hand. But at least you got away from it with minimal damage.
raise the flop.
also, you've found out that this opponent is gutless and is easy to control.
5 player 2-4 online game.
I'm on the button and pick up KQ offsuit. The bully in question is at the present in the big blind, he's been trying to bully me all night (and succeeding fairly well due to an enourmously cold deck...). It's folded to me and I raise trying to eliminate the SB. (I know that the BB will call...)
Question 1: Is this argument enough to raise in this spot or should I try to get a cheap flop since I _know_ that he will call?
I'm successful in knocking out the small blind atleast. BB calls and we take the flop heads up.
Flop: T 5 3 rainbow
BB bets, he has been coming out betting atleast 90% of the time.
Question 2: Raise/Call/Fold?
He won't fold to a raise and I'm unlikely to get a freecard by raising. Is KQ off strong enough to raise for value with here? I don't think so and I just call with my two overcards which I think are good.
Turn: 9, Board: T 9 5 3 (suits unimportant.)
BB bets again, this is fairly standard from him aswell and it doesn't mean that much.
Question 3: Raise/Call/Fold?
Two overcards that I think are good and a gutshot to the nuts, 10 outs. Automatic call since I know that he'll probably bet the river and call any raises. Against an opponent who might fold to a raise I probably would raise it here.
River: 6, Board: T 9 6 5 3
BB bets.
Question 4: Raise/Call/Fold?
Now here is the big dilemma. I'm usually fairly liberal in my river calling, but I like to have atleast an ace to call with in theese spots. I've been calling him quite a lot during the session so he should have gotten the hint by now (but who knows?). I fold. Can't make up my mind about the river fold.
Please show me the error of my ways.
Sincerly, Andreas
Tough situation to be in to be sure. It's rough when you feel some guy is singling you out to pick on you and catching a frozen wave of cards to boot.
Q1) I think here you just call. Since you know the BB is going to call no matter if you raise or just call, I think you should get in as cheap as possible. If the flop completely misses you or comes with an Ace, you can get away cheaply for only a small bet. The possibility exists that he might 3 bet preflop, further complicating the issue for you. Even though you have position on him, you won't scare him away when you bet out. Also, the SB might stay in helping your odds in case you flop a straight draw. With the SB in the pot, the bully might not try to blast away at you because he has 2 opponents, not just you.
Q2) My thinking here is to fold, even though you have 2 overcards (6 possible outs) and 12 cards that can come on the turn to give you a draw (gut or open end) to the nuts. In the latter case you have to catch perfect twice to win. If you fold, again you don't invest much. Also, the bully will win a very small pot, and might divert attention away from you. He might sense that you will give him no action and find other opponents to pick on. He's craving action, so you want to deprive him of what he wants. Wait for a better situation to present itself. A call here might be OK, but I think you're giving yourself false hope if you pick up a draw. Again, you have to catch twice.
Q3) If I'm this far, I definitely fold here. The pot again is so small. Wait for better situation and don't press.
Q4) If you're here... oh boy. If you call and beat him, you look great, man. If you call and lose (highly likely), it's probably gotten personal. Check that tilt factor. Time for a table change.
In a 5-handed game, KQ probably is the best hand preflop, but you need help. With a cold deck, minimize those losses, Andreas.
Hope this help, and better luck. Mike
On the turn, you say:
Two overcards that I think are good and a gutshot to the nuts, 10 outs. Automatic call since I know that he'll probably bet the river and call any raises. Against an opponent who might fold to a raise I probably would raise it here.
You're saying that he's both a habitual bluffer, and yet he won't fold when you catch him bluffing? I don't know how accurate this read is - if he really plays this way, you should be able to run over him. Honestly, I think it's more likely that he just realizes that you're tight and plays at you selectively. You reason, "he knows I'm tight, so when he plays at me he has to respect that". Notice that regardless of whether you give him credit for respecting your tightness or not, it doesn't matter; the error is in giving him credit for hand /because/ you are tight. When you give him credit for a hand because of /your/ play, then he can bluff at you profitably.
If your opponent really is the player who always bets and never folds, then you may still have odds on the river to call (consider you chance of beating any 2 cards versus the pot odds).
If you opponent is more intelligent than this, then that necessarily means he's capable of folding without a hand. I think raising on the turn is worth considering - in the least, you should get a free showdown at the river. Or, if he bets into you on the river, then you may feel more comfortable with your fold.
I did the "raise the turn to get a free showdown" trick on a later hand when I had AK off, he came over the top and I called him down (was sort of tilted then) just to get beaten when by his J3 offsuit that paired the 3 on the river.
Not sure that he was a horrible player or if he were just on tilt or was trying to abuse me for being a tight player.
The point is in this hand on the turn I didn't think he would fold to a raise (90% sure) and there was a good chance that he would 3 bet me. Since I would have to call the raise due to potodds I felt that calling was the correct move.
He certainly was interesting to play against, it's a pity that I didn't get any decent starting hands. It was one of thoose endless 93off/64off/85off nights.
Sincerly, Andreas
You should be happy that he's able to 3 bet with an unpaired J3o on the turn. Sorry that hand didn't work out for you.
I think you already know how to beat this guy. However, if you're not getting the cards, then you're not going to get the chance to outplay him. You're doomed in the short run. You're asking how to beat someone with better cards who always calls. You can't.
However, sometimes - after the flop - you will have better cards. Maybe you can loosen up preflop (many unplayable hands in a tight game are better than his average hand) and then only call after the flop if you're paired or have high card strength, and this will still be profitable against someone who always bets/never folds. You could do the math and find out. Regardless, it will give you insight into what constitutes a value bet against this guy. Figure out how often you need to fold in order for his bluff to be profitable, and confirm that you're calling enough so he doesn't show an automatic profit.
Anyway, I still think that folding KQo on the river is a losing play if your opponent truly will always bet with any 2 cards. Given the size of the pot, you have odds to call.
It would also follow that by calling the river you might get him to stop trying to run over you so much. You said that he came back at you with J-3. He thinks that he can beat you just by looking at you. Catch him bluffing a couple of times. Maybe say something smart. This might throw him and give you a little of insight as to how to beat him. One thing is sure. He is out of line with you and you oght to be able to crack him.
> You're asking how to beat someone with better cards who always calls. You can't.
That's exactly what happend. I probably should have loosend up considerably preflop (I did to a certain extent..) but there are 3 more players at the table to consider. But anytime I had something "reasonable" I would flop/drop it because I knew that he would probably bully me all the way to the river.
Thanks for the input.
Sincerly, Andreas
Your raise pre-flop is of course correct.
On the flop you have to make a decision. Am I going to call this guy down with this hand? If yes go all the way. If no, fold it right there. I know that you likely have 10 outs and you may have the best. But against bullies I like to ignore them. When they beat me they get a little pot, when I win they call me to the river.
I agree with your assessment that it's nice to have ace high when calling someone down. With this hand I probably would have folded the flop, but it's close.
You definately raise preflop. If he calls everything you will certainly get the best of it with him, especially with you having position.
I like to think of this hand like heads up play.
If you play like a passive/tight player you will get killed.
Against a player like this you need to loosen up and be aggressive. If he never folds, raises anything, and is going after you - you need to play back at him.
With two overcards here, I go at him on the flop and would even cap it. If he still goes after me on the turn and river I will call him down.
On the river there is a good chance you are beat but you are getting proper odds to call against this player (assuming your no-fold/bet anything characterization of him).
You need to be really aggressive and realize you can have big swings in your bankroll. However, over the long term, one of two things will probably happen - 1) you will take all his money or 2) he will slow down against you.
If you don't like playing against someone like this there is nothing wrong with switching tables.
The only times recently I seem to go on tilt is in these "good" 3-6 games at the Mirage. Usually it's only for a few minutes..
Anyhow, I'm sitting on the button, still thinking of the pocket aces I was dealt in my big blind a round or 2 earlier when Ken the dealer forgot to give a player 2 cards (it was declared a misdeal). The cards had been cold for what seemed like hours. I look down to see AhAc .. ahh here we go.. everyone have enuf cards this time? good.
fold..fold..fold.. dang am I going to get any action? LP calls the blind.. I raise it.. SB folds, BB to my utter delight re-raises it, the LP cold calls.. I re-raise to 12, both the BB and LP player call.
A side-note before the flop.. the player in the BB had just sat down the round before, just to the right of the button.. he decided to wait until his blind to play, which indicated to me he may be a conservative player. His posture and expensive-looking jewelry gave me indicators to the contrary, but in any case I had never played with him before and without any other information to go on, assumed he was conservative.
So now with him 3 betting his BB, I'm hoping he had KK or maybe QQ.. in which case I'd be a big favorite and get paid well assuming something bad doesn't happen on the flop.
Ok, back to the flop. 3 handed, 12 (small) bets in the pot, it comes: Kd 9d 3d.
The diamonds didn't bother me as much as the King did.. I was concerned of a possible set, in which case I'd be a 22-1 dog to catch him. But I'm not going to worry too much about that. He bets, and quickly the LP player raises. Now I'm concerned. If the BB has KK, he's certainly going to re-raise if I call.. and whats the LP raising with? I had no read on him. He's raising 2 players who put in 12 bets pre flop with a King on board. The worst he could have is a big diamond draw.. the more probable hand is that he's made a flush already and I'm drawing almost dead.
I look at my cards again (like an idiot) to see if my Ace of hearts had changed to a diamond.. Nope, still a heart. Ok, I'm on tilt now.. I cold call the raise, and, as I feared.. the BB comes over the top to make it 9, the LP re-raises to make it 12, 6 more to me. Ok, the steam is coming out of my ears now as I throw my aces face-up into the middle of the table.
Too disgusted to watch the action on the turn, I wait til the river to see what kind of hands I was up against. The turn and river were both blanks, and the BB bet out, the LP called. The BB was looking to muck his hand, waiting for the LP to show his... but he was informed that he was called and he needed to show first. He turns over an Ace-Jack offsuit with the Ace of diamonds (ace high), the other player turns over 6d-7d for the flush.
The big mistake I think I made was folding my aces face up. It was an "on tilt" act on my part and bad form. The other players at the table didn't need to know my hand.. it was an ego thing more than anything else. The cold-call I'm not sure about. With the 3 flush out there and a possible set on the BB, I think the cold-call was probably a bad move... about the only thing I could have hoped for was AK vs a diamond draw.. and thats a lot of hoping IMHO. I just didn't want to be bullied out easily.
The BB player switched tables shortly afterwards and went on to bluff away a couple racks. By the time I caught up with him he was down to the felt.
Maybe next time in this situation I'll quietly fold my hand and take a walk. =)
Why would an incident from half an hour ago still bother you? Dealers are human and make mistakes, but realize that you wouldn't have gotten those aces had the player been dealt in.
As for the hand, your aces didn't stand up. Oh well, try again. Slamming them face up on the table was not only dumb it was rude.
When the board is all one suit and you have a big pocket pair with none of the suit, you should either be betting or raising, not cold calling. you should have mucked it right there, you were either a small favorite or a big dog.
It's obvious that aces are worth more than any other hand. Exactly how much that is, I don't know. When you raise pre-flop in holdem, you are saying that your hand is more likely to catch a good flop than average, therefore you are upping the "ante" that goes into the pot before the main part of the hand begins. Just because there are many flops that favor aces doesn't mean they all do. sometimes you should just fold on the flop and be done with it.
Letting everyone know that you will throw away good hands was a bad move. muck face down and let them think you were just joking, wait for a better opportunity.
Dave in Cali
FOR WHAT IT,S WORTH. WILSON SOFTWARE SIMULATIONS INDICATE AA IS THE MOST VALUABLE PREFLOP HOLDING. PROPERLY PLAYED BY A T.A.G. IN AVERAGE GAME IT WILL WIN 70% OF THE TIME. AND OR WORTH 6 big bets every time you see them. THIS AVERAGE INCLUDES THE TIMES YOU LOSE.
WORTH 6 big bets every time you see them.
Does that include when there is a mis-deal? =)
WHOOOPS! NEED AGOOD EDITER. SHOULD READ 6 SMALL BETS EVERY TIME YOU GET TO PLAY THEM. 3 BIG BETS PROFIT. P.S. YOU WILL RECIEVE A PAIR ROUGHLY EVERY 6.5 HRS OF PLAY IF AVERAGED OVER LIFETIME OF PLAY. SO DON,T WASTE THEM.
Hey Hey! Another roofer. It's a lousy job, but someones' got to do it.
Stay above the gutter,
Guy
I don't put much faith into simulations, even though I own and like TTHE. I never use the simulations, they aren't close enough to the real thing to conclude anything worthwhile, IMO. Furthermore, I don't think we need to simulate to determine that aces are the best hand pre-flop.
AA being worth 6 BB sounds believeable, but in a loose game, I doubt they win 70% of the time. Although I don't keep stats, I doubt I win 70% of pots when I have aces.
Dave in Cali
When the board is all one suit and you have a big pocket pair with none of the suit, you should either be betting or raising, not cold calling. you should have mucked it right there, you were either a small favorite or a big dog.
Yep.. I had the button but made poor use of it, I agree. I just didn't want to be pushed off a pot that had been 4-bet by an AK and a flush draw. (a set of kings was a worry but I think he would have capped it pre flop if he had that hand). I don't know if the cold call was all that bad of a move in that situation.. I mean if he has AK he's not going to re-raise (I'd think not anyways).. and if a diamond comes on the Turn I want to be able to release my hand without having to have committed any extra bets. I'm sure I could have called with a little bit more confidence tho.. I probably winced a little at the LP raise when it happened. I invited the re-raise and that was probably why I got steamed, basiaclly threw in 2 bets then had to fold for 2 more.
Letting everyone know that you will throw away good hands was a bad move. muck face down and let them think you were just joking, wait for a better opportunity.
I realize this was a poor move.. not only "rude" as the other poster mentioned, but letting others know I will throw away a good hand (especially in a 2 or 3 handed pot) will only make others try more moves on me in the future. Ego got the best of me this time, and it just goes to show I'm not as tilt-proof as I'd like to think I am. Something for me to work on =)
Thanks for the comments. Riff
I started playing $0.50/$1 on paradise about a week ago and I can't believe how much I am getting sucked out on. Horrible players are winning at that limit. To make things worse, it happens consistently, even when I'm just kabitzing I see good players get their premium hands cracked by garbage that any decent player would fold without a second thought. I've read that this limit can be harder to beat than the ones just above it. What are the specific reasons? Am I not playing well? I play barely looser than the experts suggest and I don't make long, crying calls. I usually go into the river with the lead and some chump bets into me with 9-5 of spades after I've rammed and jammed to the river. I lose to a weak runner runner flush draw. Is there any justice out there?
What sort of time frame are you talking about? If this is over 100 hours you certainly have some leak in your game. Even a 20 hour downswing at this limit should be a warning bell. If you are talking of a shorter period of time get used to it, you'll have bad beats but you'll also have some extended periods making 5+ BB/hr at this limit.
Double check everything about your game. If there's a leak somewhere you may be losing just enough chips elsewhere that you need almost all your good hands to hold up and when they don't it seems that you are losing due to bad beats. For instance I once discovered a couple horrible things about my play in the blinds that I had started doing without realizing and it killed me for a bit before I realized it. In the interum it just seemed to me that I was getting cracked a lot.
Good luck and have patience. I would not suggest moving up if you don't feel confident beating $0.50-$1.00.
Paul Talbot
lots of bad beats are going to happen in these loose games. i played that limit and had the same sort of things happen to me, however, after a month of play i was averaging 5 bb's per hour. just hang in there and play your best, look for holes in your game and if you find no errors stick to y our game plan and things will work out.
What big blind mistakes are you talking about? For me, raising out of the blinds used to be a problem, until i figured out why i shouldn't be doing that nearly as frequently as from other positions.
I don't know what you're talking about. These games are a joke.
A friend of mine won 2300 bucks in his first month playing NO HIGHER than 2-4! He has made an average of 3000+ there a month since.
As many find out, they aren't really that good at poker. Maybe that's what you're learning.
Seriously, I cannot believe that anyone with any skill whatsoever could not beat those .50 - 1 dollar games.
Extremely loose games can be very frustrating, especially if you only play premium hands like AK and AA. Notice what happens when the draws get there, they win a big pot. If you have AKo and the flop is Ks Ts 9c, and there are six players, whomever has the best draw (probably a flush draw) is sucking equity away from your hand. In this type of game, it is often better to have the best draw rather than the best hand, because your equity is greater. I would rather have As8s on that flop than AdKh if it was a really loose game. The implicit collusion of several weak draws against you can translate into the field being a collective favorite to beat you. In these games you want to play hands that can make big hands, like suited aces and pairs, plus suited connectors when you can get in cheap in a multiway pot. YOU should be the one making the big draws, instead of always trying to make a futile attempt to protect top pair against six opponents. I mean when you get a hand, you have to bet it, but if you play hands that have more value in multiway pots, you will be the one with positive equity more often, and in time your results will improve.
Dave in Cali
Playing in a Sunday afternoon game at Muckleshoot near Seattle when the following came up. The game has been pretty loose passive. Little raising before the flop and a lot of chasing afterward. There are a few other good players in the game but none in the following hand:
UTG limps, two other limpers, I am in cut-off with JJ. I raise. (Value raise, but also want to buy the button and get the BB out--he is an off-duty dealer and good player). Button and blinds drop, limpers call. These are the three loosest players at the table and will stay in to the river with any piece of the board or draw.
Flop is Ts 8s 2c.
Checked to me, I bet. UTG checkraises, limpers cold call 2. I reraise, UTG caps it, limpers come along for the ride. With the cap from UTG I figure a set or maybe T8, I am fairly certain limpers are drawing to spades. Still, he knows I am aggressive and will laydown a hand, so he might be trying to get tricky. There is now $102 in pot.
Turn is a blank, say the 4h. UTG bets out, we all call.
River is a 9c. UTG bets out again, limpers drop, I call.
How do like my reraise on the flop?
Would anyone have raised the turn or river?
Would anyone have folded before the river?
Results later.
KJS
Is it possible that the correct play is to fold to the cap on the flop?
Possible reasoning:
1) You are most likely behind (given: most people only cap with a strong hand, the passive nature of the game, and the player is capping from UTG) 2) You are only getting about even odds for a two outer(+ some implied) 3) Both of your outs might help someone so there is a very good chance you are drawing to a one outer (Js gives someone the flush) or are drawing dead to a 7,9 straight draw.
I don't think there is any way you should fold here to the capped bet unless you KNOW you are against a set or overpair. If the player has 2 pair you have a reasonable chance to draw out on him. He may also have check raised with AT if he is overly aggressive.
Derrick
For the sake of argument lets say that you know for a fact you are up against a set. Would you fold to the cap?
I agree with your statement that you need to be sure your beat by a big hand. However, I was making the assumption that UTG has such a hand.
If he is capping with A,10 then I would not characterize the game as passive. I probably would not even characterize it as passive if UTG caps with two little pair.
Even if you are up against two pair you are in trouble - However, I would still call it down unless some scary cards hit.
I don't think there is too much else for you to do once you are check raised. I would definitely call it down. If you are behind to 2 pair, you have a reasonable chance of catching up.
Derrick
That my reraise, and call the cap on the flop were too loose?
KJS
I realize I may have mislead some by characterizing the game as loose-passive and then posting a hand where I get checkraised and its capped on the flop. Still, the game was textbook loose-passive pre-flop--many people seeing every flop for one bet.
Here is something else that influenced me: The UTG guy was very loose pre-flop (played 70% or more of all hands) and loved to chase. He also had sucked out on me once (I turned a str8 and he rivered a boat from 2 pair--board was straight and three of a suit when he called the turn bet). I had also minorly sucked out on him when I called the flop with an inside straight and an overcard and paired my overcard on the river. This mini-rivalry might have played into the hand. Plus, I was by far the most aggressive player and had layed down after being raised at least once.
So, I felt that he would checkraise and cap with either T8, a set or AT. I discounted a set for whatever reason. I really thought I was up against T8 but sensed he might make a move on me with AT, knowing that I would dump if I did not like my holding.
I think I had odds to call him down the whole way, given the size of the pot and the fact that I could be best.
He had AT, I raked a biggie.
KJS
Below, a hand is posted ("Alignment of planets") where I was in SB with QJ, limped along with some others, BB raised, and all called. Then I flopped top pair and checkraised a draw favorable flop (J84 two tone).
I've been trying this play a lot lately; when I get a reasonable flop (top pair or better) and there is a preflop raiser, checkraise the flop. My experience in LL is that a preflop raiser always feels obligated to bet the flop, regardless of his holding, and that most people will either fold to his bet if they have nothing, or be willing to call numerous bets if they have a draw, so I don't lose anything by going for the checkraise but I often gain an extra set of bets from the field. Of course, the downside is, sometimes I end up paying off a better hand on the flop. However, the flop checkraise can also be a valuable source of information as well (if the preflop raiser makes it three bets, you can assume you most likely need to improve), helping your decision making on the turn.
I'm curious to know if people think this flop checkraising play is a symptom of Fancy Play Syndrome, or if its actually a good idea.
I don't like this play for three reasons:
1. You get no information on the pre-flop raiser's hand. As you said, they will bet with anything. Well, anything includes many hands that beat top pair weak kicker, especially when top pair is J high. Once you do raise, they will of course call, and maybe reraise. If they call, you still have no clue what they have and if they reraise you have put in 3 small bets to find out your weak hand is not winning. See my hand below for what can happen.
2. You usually have to follow up on the turn for this play to work. Very few players are going to fold on the flop in LL after they have anything invested. If the turn makes someone's hand or someone is slowplaying you are going get squeezed.
3. If you do this very much, as you stated, you are going to start losing bets on made hands and give free cards if observant players check it through on the flop.
IMO, LL hold 'em is about showing down the best hand at the river. If I get a piece of the flop and I am in early position I bet. My only exceptions are good draws and monsters (when I will checkraise if a lot of players are in). You need to find out where you are cheaply and in a hurry. That way you can get away from hands that won't win a showdown.
KJS
I'm going to defend David a bit and provide a couple counter arguments in support of the flop checkraise vs a preflop raiser.
First off, in the QJ situation with a J-rag-rag flop and a limited amount of players, there is a strong possibility that David is best (strong being less then 50% but still enough to take a shot). For one thing Dave's checkraise punishes an AK, AQ, TT ect for an extra bet on the flop.
Second, let's say David is behind. Everyone seems to think that with a top pair you are trying to drive everyone out. Not true if he's against an overpair. He's on a draw so he wants players trapped in the pot with crap to help pay for David's mediocre draw.
Third, the information in this case IS important. You can use it to save a BIG BET in later rounds against some opponents, and it is not even costing you two full small bets because some of the times you will either have the best hand or be behind and suck out.
Fourth, this play is aggressive and can confuse the table. This is good.
Later when David has a big hand he may checkraise the flop as before and gain a monster pot.
Many suggest that betting out and having the raiser eliminate the field is preferable. Tell me if your behind and ON A DRAW do you want to be heads up for 2 small bets or in a multiway pot for 3 small bets?
Also, David has an aggressive style so it fits into the "flow" of his game.
I often use this play against somebody who too frequently bets AK on a flop like that and also against predictable opponents to save myself a big bet later.
Jim,
To tell the truth, head's up is where I think he wants to be. Let's do some math here.
In the J 8 4 flop example, there was a preflop raise, and 5 way action, so there are 10 Sb in the pot at the start of the turn action. Assume he bets, knowing the preflop raiser will raise, and that he will call that raise. So he gets 6 to 1 on that money. Assume he now plays like a little girl, and checks and calls the turn. He'll check the river, and, knowing his opponent, for simplicity sake, we'll say he'll fold if the opponent fires the last barrel. (I'm neglecting bluffing and calling with the correct frequency for the time being.) But if he hits his five outer, he'll manage to beat his opponent for one more bet, but he'll lose two more bets when his opponent's hand is still boss.
So, 79.6% of the time his weak hand does not improve.
Now, assuming the preflop player is a tight-ass S&M player, he'll likely raise his BB with AA (6), KK (6), QQ (3), JJ (1), AK (16), AQ (12), AJs (4).
So, we have 48 hands to worry about. So, when our friend's hand does not improve, he loses 2 bets 20 times and wins 7 bets 28 times.
When his hand does improve, he wins 8 bets 18 times, loses 4 bets 8 times, and wins 7 bets 22 times (Assuming that opponent folds his AK and an unhit AQ to a checkraise).
So, let's do the math:
0.8*( 20/48 * -2 + 28/48 * 7) ) + 0.2*( 22/48 * 7 + 18/48 * 8 - 8/48 * 4 )
And the estimated EV of playing heads up is: +3.7 BB.
Assuming that both David and his opponent handle the bluff and call aspect on the river at game theoretic best, this shouldn't change significantly.
The instant we add, say, a diamonds draw into the mix, David's EV goes down ... some of his outs are crippled, and he won't win as often (although the pots will ultimately be larger). The only way, by Morton's theorem, that David can profit significantly from additional callers is if they all hold worse draws than he does. Otherwise, the lion's share of the additional profit is split between the made hand and the best draw. I suppose, if you knew that everybody was out there with gutshots and 3-outers, letting the preflop raiser bet and give them the appropriate odds to chase might be OK.
I don't have time to do detailed TTH sim on this, (I'm not going to attempt this by hand!), but I actually think that his EV will ultimately be largest playing heads up against the raiser.
I don't disagree with some of your other points regarding deception, getting information to save bets on later streets, etc. Ultimately, however, if I knew I was behind and drawing with a mediocre holding, I'd prefer the THIRD option ... in a multiway pot for 1 small bet. If there's any chance that I'm ahead, then I want to try to get it heads up or close to it.
At any rate, my $0.02,
Dave
I think often in poker analysis math is no good because the information is imperfect and sometimes skewed (depending on player tendancies, flop texture, ect). I'm glad you didn't go into too much detail.
I should have been more specific about the situation. I'm talking about a rainbow and ragged flop, not cooridinated or "two-tone". With a J8 on the flop and old lady cold calling your raise I would consider a Q out as suspect (David tells me he actually didn't see the straight, a blunder, that's why he called on the turn as he put her on QJ also).
Let's say the flop is J52 and I have QJ. The preflop raiser is very tight, but the majority of the time when he raises he has AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or AK (and doesn't limp with AK). This is probably pretty close to the way you play.
I think people automatically assume that top pair good kicker wants few people in the hand. This is not true against an overpair. You are drawing. As long as your outs are not taken away by the other callers (as it was in the specific hand mentioned) you WANT more callers to help pay for your draw. This is counter intuitive for top pair.
However, comparing the strategies of betting out vs check raising, betting out is cheaper (2 small bets) but the pot is smaller while check raising is 3 small bets but a bigger pot. My original point is that the two (high price vs bigger pot) cancel each other out somewhat EV-wise to make it close.
And yes there are other options like check-calling the flop (or hell, even just folding right there, if he saw your hand he would have). But that's not a strategy in itself because you have to consider the turn and river.
If David KNOWS you have an overpair then for sure check-calling is the best, then probably folding the turn if he misses. But he doesn't know this. I can't see a winning player routinely checking and folding top pair decent kicker on a raggy board as a rule.
So should he check-call all the way to the river? This costs 5 small bets, while it's only 3 small bets to checkraise and call a reraise on the flop. By playing it that way he is saving a BB.
So I think the check-raise strategy is a good one, not as a rule, but in the right spot (like I said vs somebody who always bet AK for that flop).
I probably wouldn't use it myself against you Mr. Shaw in that situation, not only because of the older lady cold calling (possibly with AJ or 98 or whatever), but because I believe you would often check AK on the flop and/or turn (which is correct, you can't overplay AK every time otherwise you lose to players who call all the way with 22).
Just my 4 cents...
Jim
I guess the problem for me here isn't the method I used to try to get it heads up; I would look at it one of two ways.
1) People are calling with inferior draws (eg, 2nd pair, gut shot, pair+runner flush, etc.). In this case, I want as much of their money in the pot as I can get, and these are certainly draws you could expect to see on a 3-6 table.
2) People are calling with legitimate draws (but are behind my made hand). In this case, I still want their money in the pot to charge them to chase me (or you).
Whether I bet out and get raised, or I checkraise, I/we will be called for 2 bets or for 3 bets by the same people (the legitimate draws that have good reason to call, and the bad players who like their runner runner draws). The method I use is unlikely to get it to heads up either way, since in both methods, the drawing players are going to have to call 2 bets cold at some point during the hand, and if I don't want them to call, I always admire the power of a checkraise to impress upon them how far behind they are (true or not!).
My checkraise on the flop was done for 2 main purposes: 1) informational, and 2) thin value. I got everything I wanted from the checkraise; the knowledge that I was behind.
If the turn rags off, I fold to a bet, and I end up losing a total of 5 SB on the hand. If I don't checkraise the flop, I have to make a very difficult laydown to avoid losing 7 SB (2 preflop, 1 on flop, 1 BB on turn and 1 on river), assuming I don't improve, and maybe get shown a worse hand.
Jim can attest, and maybe you as well, Im not a big fan of the check and call method of play, and hoping I'm the best (no wonder I did so terrible on Ciaffone's pokerpages quiz this month, it seemed like every answer was "call and hope" or "call and decide later what to do if raised"). I'm also not a big fan of laying down top pair on a raggedy board at the 3-6 table shorthanded. I want to be sure, and the flop checkraise is the only way for me to do it here. While I respect your play, I hadn't played with you before, so I wasn't sure how you played.
I understand what you are both saying about heads up vs multiway play, and my personal opinion is that it doesn't matter because Im check-folding the turn unless I improve. I'm not concerned about pot odds to draw to my hand which I now know is behind. Say for example I miss the turn, and I now estimate myself to have (at best) 5 outs. There are 10 SB in preflop, 9 more on the flop. So, 9.5 BB. After you bet the turn, and the open ender calls, there is 11.5 BB in the pot for me to hit a 5 outer, which may or may not be good. Not a good enough overlay for me to call (although its closer). Whereas if I bet out on the flop, get raised, and then call, there are 10 SB in preflop, and 6 in on the flop, for 8 BB. Now, when you bet the turn and open ender calls, there are 10 BB in the pot. I still have a marginal call on the turn IF I WANT TO CALL AND I believe all my outs are good.
My point is that the increase of odds from 11.5-1 from 10-1 are not enough for me to call the turn bet, especially given the shakiness of my outs (eg diamonds may not be an out, you may have JJ or QQ). So, I don't think Jim's point is relevant in this example; I can't get enough pot odds to call a turn bet regardless.
Whew. Maybe I should have just gone with my original post ("Dave! I did that analysis in my head after the flop was laid, but I forgot to carry a 1! Rats!")
David
i dont like check-raising in low limit games because it just seems to scare the hell out of everyone and kill the action. it is very rare that a low limit player will 3-bet a check-raise. therefore, i usually bet out, so i can get 3 bets in on the flop.
i didnt like your check-raise on the align of pl. hand because the preflop raiser was between you and the field.
it worked out ok because the BB 3-bet you, but that doesnt happen very often. in fact, if he does 3-bet you, you should probably muck, as you are drawing thin to dead (somewhat reasonable hands are: AJs, JJ, 88, AA, KK, QQ), or are a slight favorite (reasonable hands here are: , AKs of the flush suit, 9Ts of the flush suit). i think in that case it would be better to bet and get raised, forcing everyone to call 2 cold. you are never really ahead when you get 3-bet.
my strategy in low-limit is to manipulate the betting to make as many people call several bets cold as possible, straight and flush draws will never fold anyway.
if there is an aggressive player in late position that will bet, then sometimes i go for a checkraise, if overcards wont hurt.
i dont think its a fancy play or whatever, just misused in this case. but on the other hand, i dont know the players you were playing with. i base alot on player recognition as well.
Hi Dave.
As the others have talked around (but not explicitly mentioned) is that you are in poor position to be making this kind of play.
If he just calls your raise, then you will have to lead on the turn most of the time, not knowing how good his hand is.
If he reraises, you will have to check the turn most of the time. Usually you are behind and can fold after his bet, but not always. And what if he checks behind you? You don't know if you've slowed down a better hand or given a free card to his (possibly thin) draw.
Your flop raise would be much better if you had position on the pre-flop raiser.
Eric
David,
I always treat the information gained as a bonus, but never as an end in itself. (Why pay 3 small bets to know that you're probably behind to Dr. Li?) To be sure, a check-raise when you're in early position needs to be an important part of your arsenal, but it also must be used correctly.
Basically, the question you have to ask yourself is: how strong is my hand? When your hand is weak, you want to limit the field as much as possible. So bet into an early raiser, and check raise a late position raiser. On the other hand, if your hand likes a big field (i.e., a draw to the nuts or near-nuts), or is sufficiently strong to withstand a few chasers (i.e., a set on a draw-poor board), now you try to build a pot. So now you check raise the early raiser, but bet into the late position raiser.
As you said, good drawing hands are not likely to go anywhere regardless to the number of bets to them, so you still get your proverbial pound of flesh. However, by playing it this way, you have a better chance of getting a couple of the weak draws out, which may save you the pot.
In short, do I think your flop check-raising play is bad? No, not entirely. But I think that you need to pay a bit more attention to the relative position of the preflop raiser before making this play. In your QJ example, had the button been the raiser, not the BB, I think the check-raise is called for. Had you instead held, say, Td9d, now check raising the BB is the way to go.
Best of it,
Dave
To never be behind Dr. Li!
Same 4-8 Sunday game as my post below.
I have QJo in middle position and limp first in. Too loose? I do this every once in a while when a high percentage of pots are multiway and there little pre-flop raising. Still, I would like to know if people think its a bad idea.
Anyway...only the button and blinds call. There is $16 in the pot.
Flop is QQ6 with two spades. I have the Jack of spades.
SB bets, BB folds, I raise, button calls two cold, SB calls. There is $40 in the pot.
Turn is 8s. SB bets again. What is my play?
I have 10 outs to a boat/quads and my odds for this bet is 6:1. But...the button is almost guaranteed to be on a flush draw, giving her flop action.
I call, button raises, SB calls, I call. There is now $88 in pot.
I miss on river and check-fold to button bet.
Would anyone have folded on the turn? After the SB bet or after the raise?
What if they both raised?
I had odds the way it turned out but much more raising and my odds would have been shot. Should this possibility have tipped the balance toward folding right away?
I think this hand is an interesting one because good LL players pride themselves on not chasing like their loose counterparts. Still, sometimes your outs for a redraw appear to be there. But, other factors such as your placement between two bettors can be a big factor.
Thanks again.
KJS
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You'll lose more than you'll win with QJo in early position. On the turn you're stuck, since you've got such a big draw.
I think you played the hand fine, minus the pre-flop call.
Last night I was playing a little 3-6 and had 66 under the gun. The game had been both passive and loose so I called. By the time it returned to me it was 3 bet with 5 other callers. I called and 6 saw the flop. The flop came Kd Qd 6s. I checked and the next player bet (This was not a preflop raiser). All called and I check-raised. Initially, I had been playing on check- raising a later position bettor in an attempt to protect my set. Once no one raised the bettor, I figured I had the best hand and I might as well build the pot.
The turn was the 5h. I bet and all called. The river was the Ts. I bet and got 3 callers. I showed my set and all folded with one player showing 55 for a set of 5s. I was kind of shocked that he didnt pop it on the turn when he made his hand.
What does everyone think of my play in this hand.
IMHO, I think you played it fine. If you would have gotten raised on the river, then someone probably had AJ for the straight. But, as it turns out, nobody did. The guy with the set of 5's was just playing the usual passive (I'm scared to loose money) game and is probably glad he did in this case. It'll just justify, in his mind, that style of play. Let's see...$145 pot after the rake. Not bad for 66's UTG, but my math is horrible.
When playing loose-passive low limit, I always come out betting when I have a set. They usually don't start dropping until the expensive streets.
However, in this case I am impressed that you were able to get 5 extra small bets by check raising.
I nearly always come out betting also. I have moved from 3-6 to 20-40 as my regular game. Now when I play 3-6 I practice for the 20-40 game. When I always played 3-6 day in and day out there wasnt a need for the check raise. The 20-40 game has created that need and I am trying to gain a knack for it.
Still, it was kinda gutsy staying in UTG with 66. That's more of middle to late starting hand. I wouldn't make it a habit, it could get expensive in the long run.
I agree with your analysis. Nonetheless, when the texture of a game is such that there had been only one preflop raise in an hour, and I made it, and that there has averaged over 6 callers to see each flop; it is correct to limp in with 66. Normally I would not do this.
I might've bet out on the flop, and if somebody raises, you might get some protection. If not, that's fine too. I also think I'd have gone for the check-raise on the more expensive turn, since your play on the flop did not necessarily indicate strength. By check-raising the turn when bet by a late position player, you're forcing the other players to cold call two huge bets, which they would likely be making a mistake by doing, but if they fold, that's alright too. If it was bet on the turn by an early position better, you lose the protection factor completely, but by raising you're making the pot huge when a blank hits the river and your set holds. Additionaly, the huge pot created means you're likely to get paid off even more by hands as little as top pair. In fact, if you're lucky enough to still have a few players left(4+)you might be able to get away with another check-raise on the end!
This is a pretty straight forward situation. Once you called before the flop, and flopped your set, I think check-raising is the right move. Then assume you have the best hand until someone demonstrates that they have the best hand. As for playing 66 utg, that is borderline, but in the game you described, I would have played it too.TL
Given your position, especially your position relative to the pre-flop raisers, and given what came on the flop, I believe the best play would have been to bet the flop, then reraise if someone else raised. I often advocate this approach for flopped sets, especially small sets when there is a straight or flush draw on board. You are charging the drawing hands the max when you do this, and you are building the pot when people are more likely to continue calling (when the bets are small). By playing this way, you will usually win a bigger pot, and you will charge the draws more than any other way to play it. I feel playing this way is especially effective in loose games. I have had good success with it, and I usually play in loose or very loose games.
Other than that, I suppose you played ok, but if you had folded pre-flop I would not have been very upset.
Dave in cali
I just had a few questions. First, if the game is very loose is it correct to call with unsuited high cards like AK AQ ect. if you know the other player's will not fold and continue to play garbage even for a raise? Next, Say I raise with AQ off suite and the flop comes something like KQ7 and someone bets into me, and i know the better will bet either kings, queens, or even sevens into a pre-flop raiser what is the best play assuming the pot odds justify a call. What is the flop totally misses my AQ or AK and I get bet into after I raise assuming no back door posibities, what is generally the best move against a player that could be betting anything or bluffing? any advice would be great as I have found these stituations to be a leak in my game?
thanks fred
Fred, I will tell you what I do in those situations. Not all on this forum will agree. 1)In late position in a loose game where 3 or 4 people have limped and I have AK off-suit or AQo I like to just call and see what the flop brings. Like you said you are not going to lose anyone. Some people raise here for value or to get a free card. I have found raising in this situation is unprofitable for me. 2)I would either fold or raise here. I would never just call. Raising might make K no kicker behind you drop, might buy you a free card, might make the original better fold. Just calling in this situation is incorrect in my opinion. 3)Same as above, you cannot just call in this situation. You have to raise or fold. If you think he might be bluffing, raise, if not fold. Hope this helps TL
Hi Fred,
These are difficult situations in loose low limit games that gave me a lot of problems when I started.
For starters, I recommend you read Lee Jones' "Winning Low Limit Hold Em" for some help on how to play these games. The book is by no means optimum strategy for any game, but I think it is a good book for beginners. You should also buy 2+2's Hold Em Poker, which has material that goes beyond Jones.
"First, if the game is very loose is it correct to call with unsuited high cards like AK AQ ect."
I think calling with these hands is all right, depending on your opponents. A raise doesn't chase anyone and you see the flop for less. Raising isn't bad either because so often you are playing against much weaker hands.
"Next, Say I raise with AQ off suite and the flop comes something like KQ7 and someone bets into me, and i know the better will bet either kings, queens, or even sevens into a pre-flop raiser what is the best play assuming the pot odds justify a call."
Here you must be paying close attention to your position and how your opponents play. If the bettor is very likely to bet a hand worse than mine, I will raise to see if I can't chase out a better hand behind me. If the bettor is reasonable, I might just call. If the bettor is squeaky tight and there will very likely be a raise behind me, folding is a likely option.
"What is the flop totally misses my AQ or AK and I get bet into after I raise assuming no back door posibities, what is generally the best move against a player that could be betting anything or bluffing?"
Depends on who else is in the pot and how they play. If it is 3-handed or headsup, I would call and, rarely, raise on the flop. If there are still 5-6 people and a lot of action, I let the overcards go. MAKE SURE YOU PAY ATTENTION TO HOW YOUR OPPONENTS ARE PLAYING. Sometimes you make a bad laydown or two before you get a line on how people play.
The only real way to become better at playing in these games is experience. Books help, 2+2 helps, studying helps, but the only way to get better is by playing.
Here is an example of a hand I played last night in a very loose 4/8 game with a maniac:
I was UTG and had 7h8h in Seat 4. I had been playing fairly tight and had played every hand very straight forward to this point. A maniac was in Seat 6 and the rest of the table was pretty loose. I decide to toss in a little deception and raise. I didn't really need to do this, but thought I'd have some fun.
Seat 6 reraises, no suprise there, he could have ANYTHING. SB calls, BB, a pretty tight passive player, calls. I call.
The flop was 9h7s5h. Not a bad flop. I bet, hoping the maniac will raise with a worse hand and chase the players behind me. He raises. SB, a loose player, calls, and BB calls. BB worries me because I think he has a better flush draw than I or T9 or both.
Turn is a 2s. No help for anyone, I think. I bet again, figuring the goofball in Seat 6 will raise. He comes through and raises again. SB disgustedly folds, but BB cold calls. I am far more worried about BB than Seat 6. I call.
River is the Kc. I don't like that card much and I check. Seat 6 bets. BB mucks. There are 17 big bets in the pot and I figure there is at least a 25% chance that my hand is good.
I call.
Seat 6 turns over AQo for nut no-pair. I win with a pair of 7's. Seat 3 goes nuts because he folded Q9.
Seat 6, who bluffs every time he doesn't make a hand, yells at me "How can you call?!?!??" I just shrugged and stacked.
The only reason I played my hand like I did was because of the maniac. On the turn, I had second pair with a lot of outs (although I think my flush draw was no good) and a maniac who would raise out a better hand behind him. Betting the turn was my best shot at winning the pot. I also got a bit lucky, but nothing wrong with that.
Had I just sat down at the table, I could have never played that hand like I did. There is no book that can take the place of paying close attention to your opponents.
Fred, when the game is loose like you described, just hunker down and play tight(er). I think calling in your position was the right thing to do, until you see the flop. Remember that in the long run, you'll make lots of money off players like that. But in the short term, you could be in for some WILD swings in your bankroll. ALWAYS make sure you have enough to play in these types of games. I TOTALLY agree with Dan C, PAY ATTENTION to those loose opponents, and you'll eventually go home with their money in you wallet.
Hey again to all,
I am fortunate enough to have Mondays off from work (and Tuesdays too, but that another story). Anyway as a creature of habit, I visit the local casino for some HE action. Sometimes, I just can't wait to get there and my mouth waters with the thoughts of juicy pots to come in the near future.
Today seemed like one of those Mondays. I got up, performed my morning rituals, yada yada yada. I arrived shortly after noon, and posted for 3-6 and 4-8 games.
However, God forgot to tell me that this was going to be one of these days. I took my seat (my favorite one) in a 3-6 game that I had been scouting for about 10-15 minutes. It looked very loose-passive with about 6 players being familiar to me. OK... slice of heaven with a coke.
My first hand I sit down behind the button and wham... pocket AA. Life's good. Anyway, I'll spare you the details as my opponent catches runner runner for the straight after leading with J9Off UTG. Noooo problem, I chuckle and shake my head as they push him the pot (app $100). No one else could beat my rockets :)
2 hands later I find QQ in middle position. No problem, fire away. I get cold called by the button and after a flop of 227 rainbow, I'm counting the chips already. An offsuit 10 arrives on the turn, yummy. But, I get raised by my button friend who I found out later to be an utter dunderhead. Long story short, he shows down 10-2 offsuit for the nice boat. 211 in progress... all units respond.
Get the picture? After about 25 minutes, one rack empty... no problem. Reload and table change to 4-8 game. I think you all see where this is going. After about 2 more racks in 2 hours, total of $300 donation, I was going home, veddy unseeatisfyed (as Teddy KGB sez).
Please don't feel sympathy for me, as that is not the point of my post. My point is this... every good player will experience setbacks in low limit poker. The really good low limit players will find a way to identify that they are having one of these temporary setbacks, and seek to minimize the bleeding. For my part today, I received better than average cards in the hole, no doubt about that.
Not to toot my own horn, but I consider myself to be one of the better players at this casino. From my calculations and records to date, I have a winning session 82% of the time I choose to play, over 150 sessions total (I'm still fairly new to game). However, during 12 of these losing sessions, I have lost in excess of $200... in 6 of these more than $300. Thus, when it's bad, it's Siberia.
Some quick stats today for the curious:
AA cracked twice KK cracked twice QQ cracked twice AK cracked ... oh I forgot :) No sets flopped, or turned, or rivered
Draws either open ended on flop or flush draw (4 of a suit)... no backdoor crap: I go a blistering 1 out of 16 made draws!!!!!
Next session, I think God... or Sklansky... or even some basic math books owe me a couple of nice pots. Until then, get some nice cards, and pay attention. If you get the symptoms, be smart and leave. I'll eventually get better at this. I'd appreciate comments. Thanx.
Mike
In mp I limp w/A-10o after two players limp in front of me. All fold to the button who limps and the SB and BB call. Flop comes down KcJdQh. Three players check to player to my right who bets. I fear that if I raise here I will lose all other players except for the better. I smooth call and the button folds as does the SB, BB calls, other MP player folds. Three players at this point. Turn comes 4c. I like this turn but it does make a runner runner flush possible. To my surprise the BB bets here. BB is the second best player at the table. MP call and I raise. BB calls, MP folds. River come Ks. BB checks to me and I of course check. BB turns over K-4 for a boat. He said if I raised the flop he would be long gone. Comments?
I don't think you should slow play this hand... here is my reasoning.
Poor low limit players will take one off on the flop to see if they can hit their gutshot irregardless of the pot odds. Therefore, anyone with an A or T will stick around and try to split the pot with you. To you this is like losing half the pot.
In many low limit games people won't even fold even bottom pair here. Bet and they will come is my philosophy at low limit.
You will get paid off by hands like AK, KQ, QJ, JT, and T9. All of which are drawing very slim against you. (So is K4, but you got unlucky.)
Just My Thoughts,
Derrick
Flopped straights are the best and worst hands you can have. Sure, it's great when they win, but when they lose - ugh.
I find that slowplaying them rarely does me any good. The one time I did slowplay it recently, the board paired and killed me. That did it for me.
The other thing that happens with flopped broadways is that you almost always have an open-ended opponent trying to counterfeit you. May them pay for it.
In a loose game, I will almost always play it fast on the flop, hoping someone plays back at me.
"I fear that if I raise here I will lose all other players except for the better"
This should be your reason for raising instead of your reason for slowplaying. Flopped straights are vulnerable hands, especially flopped broadways. There are lots of cards that could come to cost you half the pot or the whole pot. Runner-runner flushes and full houses could cost you the pot. That flop makes it more likely than average that someone has two pair, because of all the big cards. anyone with an ace or ten has a few outs against you to take half the pot. Charge them to draw, otherwise be happy when they fold. Raising the flop was clearly the best play.
Dave in Cali
Thanks for the responses. I was trying to get cute when I should have gone w/my regular play. Also, I thank you all for not pointing out the fact that I played A-10 off-suit. I certainly don't make a habit of it. I have a feeling that although nobody likes to admit playing this hand, I am sure that most LL players play this hand quite regularly. TL
Did I play this one right? 3-6-12 game. I'm 1 from the button and get As 7s. 2 callers to me, I call, BB calls, SB calls. Flop is 10s, 8s, 2h. Guy to my right bets, I raise, everyone else folds, original bettor calls. My thinking on the raise is, 1 card for the flush, 1 card for aces, and a WAY outside shot at the straight. Plus, I want to narrow the field, which I did. The turn is 4d. Straight possibility gone, flush still there as well as another ace. The guy to my right checks, I figure he's on a flush draw too, I bet, he calls. River card is another ace. He checks, I bet 12, he calls. I flip over my A 7. He growls and turns over JJ. I know, lucky I got the ace, but, did I play it right?
My opinion (in short): yes, no, yes, no.
My opinion (a tad longer): You were correct to call with two players already in and no one looking to raise. You were very wrong in raising the flop. Flush draws want lots of players in. You need their money to justify the odds. Think about it this way: Your raise will not get two pair out and it will certainly not get a set to fold. The only hands that will crumble are ones that are even worse than yours at this point and those are the ones you want in! Your bet on the turn after his check was fine. His just calling also showed a bit of weakness, perhaps too much respect for your raise. Your bet on the river seemed a bit much and I would disagree with it. But considering how it was played before now, it's very hard to put you on an ace.
It may just be that the way you played it did, in fact, maximize your chances of winning this particular pot. But overall your play on the flop was not good.
Dan O,
What's wrong with a semi-bluff raise on the flop? It would have succeeded in getting him a free card had he taken it.
A semi-bluff raise also gives him a better chance to win by chasing better overcards away and making his Ace good. He's going to miss his flush more times than he makes it, and if he allows Aces with better kickers than a 7 to hang around, there is a good chance they will.
I think his river bet was good. Unless the guy is checkraising, what hand that beats him won't value bet?
Why would you want to narrow the field with a nut flush draw?
When on a strong draw, I would not raise the flop to limit the field. You want many players in to pay you off and you want the pot to grow for when you hit.
Raising for the free card is OK, but that is not what you mentioned or did.
Once you do raise and are heads-up I like your turn bet if you think your single opponent is on a draw and may laydown on the river if they do not improve.
As a rule though, I would just call the flop and hope everyone comes along.
KJS
I like the turn bet too, only I think it's a well-timed bet because you might win unimproved and can therefore show down at no extra cost.
In low limit you have to pump your draws, or half your pots will be too small and you'll be a calling machine. your only mistake was that you didn't play aggressive enough or you would never have had to show that hand.
I don't think luck had anything to do with this one, I think the guy with JJ played badly.
The reason I don't just call preflop with JJ is because I don't want Ax to call. Sure, they might not fold, especially if they are suited, but I will at least give them a reason to get off it.
That wasn't a bad flop for JJ. When you raised, the guy with JJ has to put you on spades or a hand like AT. I think he should have reraised on the flop
Turn is the same thing. He knew you didn't need a 4. If he thinks you are on a flush draw, he should bet. Check-calling the turn while you are ahead with an overpair and your opponent is on a flush draw is a bummer. If he really thinks he is beat by T8 or something, he should have just laid it down.
The A was a rotten card for him, he knew it and made the crying call.
I think you played it OK given your opponent was afraid to play back at you. Against most opponents, I would have taken the free card on the turn.
Another example why it is nearly impossible to blow people off a hand in LL poker.
The poster clearly thought he could make the guy drop and would have lost at least 1.5 big bets if he did not get his draw (more if he tried to buy it on the end).
I am not advocating being weak tight but it is very important to consider a wide range of holdings for LL players. Checking and calling with an overpair is not unheard of, especially after a player has been raised.
I played a similar hand on Sunday.
I raised with 99 after one limper only the limper calls. Flop is 8 high, he bets I raise, he calls. He checks and calls the turn and river (both undercards). I lose to JJ. Clearly I should not have bet the river.
KJS
KJS,
Good point, but in the hand the poster mentioned, if I had JJ, I would tend to rule out AA,KK, and QQ as hands my opponents have because no one raised preflop. I would expect the button to raise a draw or AT here.
In the hand you mention, your opponent with JJ has good reason to put you on a pair higher than his rather than 99. In his case, I think the check call was more in line because of your preflop raise.
Some of the things in your post make no sense.
Why on earth would you want to thin the field with the nut flush draw?? I would think you'd want to get as many callers as you possibly could, not thin the field.
Furthermore, the pot is very small compared to what is going to go into it on later streets. Why thin the field or win it now? I'd much rather make a flush while several people are still in the pot and then get at least one or 2 of them to pay me off on the expensive street.
You need to learn how to tell when to raise with a draw. Some people hear that that is a play that advanced players make, so they try to be clever and raise draws no matter WHERE the bet comes from or HOW MANY players are left to act. This is clearly a case of knowing too much for your own good.
In a 3-6-12 game it is easier to limp with marginal hands because of the 2BB pay off on the river. I don't mind your preflop call for this reason. I would release the hand with only 2 callers to me if it was just 3-6. I think it may be a loser in the long run even in 3-6-12.
On the flop I would not raise. The reason is you want callers. You have a drawing hand, and you will get paid more if more people call. I like your reasoning here though. You must raise to make it more likely that an A coming is good.
Now, on the turn I would have taken the free card. It is checked to you, and you are heads up with A high. I don't think your bet is wrong though. You are giving him a chance to fold.
Now, on the river I would have checked it down. What would you have done had he raised to 24? You have a 7 kicker. I think the risk is too high here. However, your opponent played so weak, I may have bet here as well.
All in all I think you played it well. I would have probably played it differently, but that doesn't mean you didn't play it well.
Derrick
You said you you liked his reasoning for raising the flop, but then said not to bet the river, because he had a weak kicker and might get raised. For this reason, he should not raise the flop based on the ace in his hand. he should just consider it as an extra possibility, like a possible three more outs, i.e. he has UP TO 12 outs. however, the primary reason not to raise is that he wants people with weak draws to stay in the pot, that is how he gets the most equity out of his hand.
dave in cali
What I meant was the raise makes the fact that an A will be more likely to be good. In the above example the flop came Ts-8s-2h. If someone has A-2 and you raise with As-7s you may get the A-2 to fold. Now your A is good if it comes. Similarly your raise may get hands like A-X (where X is > 7), A-J, A-Q, and A-K to fold. By raising here you are maximizing your chances of winning the pot.
I agree with you that there is more equity in just calling because the pot will end up larger for when you hit your NUT flush. Also, even if an A comes you may be beat by 2 pair or a better A and it just ends up costing you. For instance what if the original bettor had A-T and not JJ.
Derrick
Why raise and drive out the players that may pay you off if spades should hit the turn and the river. You want them in for a good payday. Give them the chance to chase, catch and lose, to the nuts.
I think it is OK to mix it up in this situation. Calling the flop is certainly correct, but since no one raised preflop, why not try to represent the best hand once in a while?
I think this gives the poster a better chance to win the times the flush misses.
And some nights, it seems like those spades NEVER come!
It's just one hand guys! But I appreciate the feedback. This hand has been bugging me for 2 weeks. Why is it that the small ones always stick in your mind? The pot wasn't that much, I COULD have played it differently, and I SHOULD have lost.
nt
You took advantage of a weaker player!!!! I read the thread and I totally agree w/Dan C. Yeah you want callers but you are an underdog the whole way!!! A good player would have put you on a flush draw and made you pay. Then when you hit your A on the end it would have been luck. But this is just the typical semi-bluff play that worked at this given moment.
I find that if you are playing correctly, flushes rarely come, when you have a chance to win a hand w/o making a hand, you better try.
As for some of the respondents that said just call here. What if you call and the time it gets back to you it is capped? Then what. You put more money in and hope you hit and find out that when it doesn't, it was very expensive. To sum up. IMO you played it right. If on the river you do not hit your A and your partner was on a flush draw and hits a small pair and you do not bet. You lose. If you bet he might fold. TL
With one overcard and the nut flush draw he wasn't an underdog by much. 12 outs. Nearly 50:50
IF HE DID suspect you had a flush draw and one overcard, the correct play would be to call the flop and then checkraise the turn assuming neither a flush card nor a paint card comes. This assumes that he knows you would continue the bluff.
On the flop he isn't much of a favorite but on the turn he is. So that is when he should get the extra, and larger, bet in.
In principal, raising a good draw can be a great play, but you took advantage of neither of the two best reasons to make that play. The best reason to make the play is build a big pot so several players will pay you off big when you make the hand. The other good reason to do it is that you may earn a free card when you are checked to on the next round. To take advantage of the former, you must have serveral people behind you that have already called one bet, so are sure that they'll call another. Oops. To take advantage of the later, you must check behind everybody when you hit a blank on the turn. Oops. Also, on the river, I would have been much more inclined to bet if it had been a total blank than the ace. If it's a blank, you have no chance to win except with a bluff, so you bet. With an ace, you have a good chance to win by checking, but (IMO) less than 50% chance of winning if your bet is called, so there's no reason to make the bet. I consider you lucky that he had JJ. I would have give him a good chance of having something like AT or AK, with which he may have even raised your bet on the end. This, of course, is all my humble opinion.
Your friend and fellow student of the game, Michael
I think you should have called the flop and not raised the bettor to your right. You have a weak ace, so you shouldn't put that much stock in what might happen if you hit an ace. However, your flush draw is valuable, especially if there are several players in the hand with weak draws. For it to remain valuable in this regard, you want to keep people IN the pot, not drive them out. When you have the best draw, like the nut flush draw, you WANT to let people with weak draws stay in the pot, they are benefitting YOU, not the player with "top pair".
A slightly different situation when you might raise like you did is if you had something like AsKs, where you have two strong overcards plus a flush draw. Now, you can be much more confident of your hand if you spike a pair, plus you have the flush draw as a backup.
Dave in Cali
I am one off the UTG and raise with pocket T's, and promptly recieve five cold callers for my trouble. The SB mucks (huh?), the BB predictably calls, and we go in 7 handed.
Flop Td 2s 2c. Not bad, I think. In fact, I may have to show this one down. But, alas, I check, in an attempt to induce inordinate action, the two players to my right check, cutoff bets, button raises, I call and the other two drop.
Turn: 8d. I check, cutoff checks, button bets, I call, cutoff calls.
River: 8s. I bet.
All comments/criticisms welcome.
Checkraise the turn.
Otherwise, seems routine.
KJS
I think I probably would have bet the flop. Many of the players have put in an AK over an over pair...not TT. I think you make more money playing in straight forward.
Alternatively, you really do need to check raise the turn. The problem with this is the fact that you are forcing your opponents to call two bets cold as opposed to just one.
Perhaps, if you want to decieve a little, check the flop and bet the turn. You may well get raised by the cutoff if you do that and that would be the best possible outcome.
Re: Betting on the flop.
This probably isn't a bad move, since everyone cold called and I have to charge them to draw to overcards at some point. In retrospect, I think this would have been the best play... except I was worried the first cold caller (or the second) would pop it with something like pocket 5's, therefore killing all the action.
Also, I just couldn't put anybody on a deuce. Not a cold caller. Although I'll be the first to admit that it was a possibility. If the flop had been something like TT9, or TTK, I'd have been betting from the start.
Check-raising the turn: When the cutoff called, the button raised, I COLD CALLED and cutoff called, I hoped the cutoff had a deuce and was planning on check-raising the turn. Obviously this didn't happen, but that was the general thinking; plus, I figured if I made it two cold to him he'd drop, and his money was certain to be dead, so there seemed a lot of equity in keeping him around.
Still, you're both right. At some point you've got to give your opponent a chance to go off with the second best hand. And, as it turned out, I did have that opportunity, since the button showed-- you guessed it--pocket A's when he mucked. Go figure!
If I've developed a leak in my low limit play, it's failing to play straightforward in large, mulitway pots. I've spent quite a bit of time in the 10-20 up in Mt. Pleasant Mi., which is generally a rock garden during the week, so I often have to get a little tricky in order to maximize any given hand. But, in the smaller games-- particularly those online-- you can't start 'putting guys on hands' because you never really know.
Thanks for the tips,
Guy
You are obviously in a game where the main value of a pair of tens up front is to be able to flop a set. This means that you should usually call and not raise.
A good point. It was one of those funny games-- sometimes the whole field would come in, but often-- I'd say maybe 40% of the time-- you could get either take the blinds or get it heads up or three ways. The best way to describe it is as one of those games with a domino effect; if the next guy called the whole field was going to trail in, but if he mucked they'd all start folding.
I like betting the flop here, it makes it look like you have a big pair or AK. No one will suspect that you would bet out with a deuce or tens full, they would expect you to slow play or try to check-raise, just like they would. When you cold call the flop raise with that board, you are telling them that you must have hit that flop. what possible hands might they conclude that you have, cold calling a raise? Now I understand this was a low limit game, so they might not even consider what you might have, usually they can hardly get past what they have.
Also, I think betting the turn may have been an alternate way to play it, hoping the flop raiser had a deuce and would raise you, so you could reraise back.
Dave in Cali
For you skeptics think about the following chart it shows every possible location and choice:
car/picked goat/not picked goat/not picked goat/picked car/not picked goat/not picked goat/picked goat/not picked car/not picked
car/not picked goat/picked goat/not picked goat/not picked car/picked goat/not picked goat/not picked goat/picked car/not picked
car/not picked goat/not picked goat/picked goat/not picked car/not picked goat/picked goat/not picked goat/not picked car/picked
Note that when you show a goat say in group 1 3-3 or 2 the situation still remains that you have 2 chances to win by changing and only 1 by standing pat.
I wonder if anyone still doesn't believe it.
I know that I have been enlightened as to the wisdom of the masters.... although I still find it amusing that a 50/50 chance becomes 2-1 if you've chosen a door in the first place...
Gil, I understand what you were doing with your chart, but I think you should have formatted it differently in order for it to be crystal clear like you intended.
Why doesn't someone get a college level statistics text and find bayes theorem and provide the definitive proof once and for all. that way, if anyone STILL doubts, we can all ignore their posts from now on, because if they can doubt in the face of definitive proof, they must be an idiot.
The format was better in word but I couldn't figure out how to transfer it.
preview before posting and see if it looks good. sometimes putting in an extra blank line between lines helps. check the posting hints, there is something in there about tables and formats, but I don't remember what it was.
Go File
SAVE AS
In the list box choose web page.
derrick
Loose passive table.
I get AKo on the button. There are 4 callers, I raise, all call.
Flop Q-J-7 rainbow. All check to me, I bet, blinds fold, 2 call.
Turn blank. Check to me, I bet, fold, call.
River blank. Check, I bet trying to represent a big pair, thinking the only chance at winning this hand is to bet out. He calls. He shows down Q-6 and takes the pot.
Was I correct to bet the turn? Should I have checked down the river and saved a bet? Should I have said something as I bet the river like, "can you beat trips?" to try and scare him off? Would that be considered unacceptable chicanery?
Any suggestions welcomed.
Check it on the river when you did not improve; if he has anything at all he's going to call--save a bet!
YOU SHOULD HAVE CHECKED THE TURN.AT LEAST 1 OF YOUR LP CALLERS HAD PAIRED UP ON THE FLOP.LP GENERLY GO TO THE RIVER IF PAIRED UP. Q,J ON THE FLOP PLUS 2 CALLERS SHOULD HAVE SET OFF YOUR ALERT LIGHT. ACCEPT THE FREE RIVER CARD.IF YOU MISS, FOLD TO A BET 90% OF THE TIME. RERAISE THE OTHER 10%(KEEP THEM GUESSING AND INTIMIDATED).IF YOU HIT ON THE RIVER CALL ANY BET AND CHECK TO THE SHOWDOWN(BEWARE OF THE POSSIBLE STRAIGHT NOW IMPLIED DO NOT RAISE OR BET) LP,s ARE NOT GOING TO BE BLUFFED THIS CHEAPLY, SO SAVE YOUR MONEY.
The key here is "Loose passive table". You won't buy many pots from theese guys.
Preflop raise is good, flop bet is good (if you intend to go for the freecard), your turn bet is bad, take the freecard and hope for one of the 10 outs, the river bet is also bad.
If you're only hope of winning the hand is to bet it on the end your opponent (if he is a typical loose LL player) will probably call with any hand that beats you. So a check is certainly in order.
Sincerly, Andreas
amen to all of the comments above... and to the one they missed:
"Would that be considered unacceptable chicanery? " HELL yes!
And you don't wanna go pissing off those passive players... because some of them will get tricky on you.
With four limpers in front, I do not like to raise with AK on the button. AK goes down in value with many players in the hand. It is a drawing hand at this point. I want to get a look at the flop.
Your raise will usually do exactly what it did in this case. It will cause the flop to be checked around to you. You have then effectively lost your position. If you don’t raise, and someone bets out in front of you and you get callers, then you can raise if you hit your A or K. Most will call and you will build the pot this way, after you have made your hand.
You may or may not want to raise with this board, because, if you hit your card, someone else may make a straight, but, if only one other is in, you want to make them pay for the draw. That is dangerous if they already have made their straight. If too many are in, you may just have to check and call it down.
I would not bet the flop, but would take the free card. You are not going to push out anyone who has paired the Q or J. I would check and fold on the river. There are many times you have to throw your AK away.
I would raise with AK in early position, or if I am the first one in, because you might get a fold or two behind you and protect your hand that way.
There are a lot of issues here, and I may not have thoroughly discussed them or had all the right answers. But, it is food for thought. This hand, with this board can be played different ways depending on your position, the action in front and behind, and the number of players in the hand at any given time. It would take a chapter in a book to do this justice.
LIMPING WITH AK THIS WAY WOULD COST $8(2sb,1bb).RAISING PREFLOP AND BETTING THE FLOP, THEN CHECKING WILL COST $6 (3sb).IT ALSO LETS YOU CONTROL THE HAND.
A ALTERNATE METHOD WITH LATE POSITION AK. LIMP PREFLOP AND RERAISE ON FLOP THEN CHECK TURN.COST $6 (3sb).GAINS YOU CONTROL OF HAND. LETS YOU SEE THE FLOP CHEAPER (1sb)(SAVING YOU MONEY IF THE FLOP GOES REAL BAD (3 CARD FLUSH,3 OF KIND))MAKES YOUR BLUFFS SEEM STRONGER(Still bad idea against weak (loose) players).LETS YOU CHANGE YOUR STRATEGY ON FLOP WITHOUT EXSPOSING YOUR ACTION (CONTINUE LIMPING).
Same loose passive table as hand #1.
I get T-9s in the big blind. 3 callers to me, I check.
Flop is T-9-4 Rainbow. I bet out, all call.
Turn is J, making the board 2 suited (not mine). I bet out, one caller.
River is a blank. I check, het bets, I call, he turns over Q-8 for the straight.
Anybody think I should have tried a check-raise on the flop? Was it correct to call the river? Since there wasn't a raise to me on the turn, I figured my hand was still good. If the river makes a 4-straight on board, should I drop at that point to a bet?
I think you played it fine. Maybe a checkraise was in order, but I like betting instead of risking the dreaded freecard.
On the river he might be betting a draw that didn't get there or a J, so it's an automatic call imo.
It was just one of thoose hands you probably couldn't win. (Maybe a checkraise would have worked, but who knows?)
Sincerly, Andreas
Don't think your checkraise would have worked, given passive.
And yes, dump the two pair on river when 4-straight shows. One of those limpers has you beat (if not straight, then higher two pair)
3-6 game on a half kill hand (5-10). I'm in MP with crap and fold preflop. However as usual most people call (no raises). Flop: 267r. Everyone checks to button who tosses out 3 bucks (the bet is 5). The dealer doesn't see his bet and of course the players in the hand who want a free card don't point it out (and neither do I). Dealer burns and turns: 8. Now the button starts screaming about how he had made a bet on the flop. Floor is called and the dealer is instructed to pick up the turn card, shuffle the deck and deals a new turn card: J. Everyone checks to button who fires $5. Everyone folds except a kid who was probably playing for the first time. Its heads up now and the river is a 9. Kid checks, button bets, Kid calls. Button says "straight" and turns over 4-5. He actually looked shocked when the dealer said "sorry sir, there's no 8 on the board.." Kid turns over A-9 and scoops the pot. Of course button player gets belligerent at this point and starts screaming that the dealer should pay him the pot since she made the mistake. I'm not sure where this guy was at when the 8 on the turn was picked up and shuffled back into the deck.
This hand illustrates two points.
first, you should say "bet" or "raise", because if you just throw the chips in, the dealer may not be paying attention. This happened to me with an unattentive dealer. I had raised the turn, but the dealer was not paying any attention (AT ALL), and burned and turned without waiting for the action to be complete. The turn gave me a full house, but of course didn't count because the action was imcomplete. When the NEW turn card was dealt, it gave three people the same one card straight (three had called with their gutshots). It cost me about 150$. Technically, it was the dealer's fault, he was terrible and made many mistakes often, and rarely paid any attention. But I should have said raise, and said it nice and loud. The first rule of poker is to protect your hand. This includes making it clear when you have bet or raised.
Second, the guy who was paying no attention to the BOARD when the river came around deserved to lose his money on that one. Pay attention and this won't happen to you.
Dave in Cali
I know this is the wrong section but this is where all the people are. Could somebody tell me who would win the low hand in Omaha split
Player A. A2348
or
Player B. 23457
Thanks. Please reply soon cause me and some friends are argueing over this.
Player B wins with 23457.
You always start from the top down and compare. It seems odd because from a players perspective you look at it from bottom up.
23 is a better low than A4 for the same reason.
Player B is the winner of the low.
Player B has a 7-5 low while player A has an 8-4 low. When checking for the best low, you start with the highest card in the low and work backward.
Player B. Start with the high card and work your way down.
Or were you itching to post? :)
Thanks Guys. That is what I thought. Your great replys have won me a little cash. Thanks again
Omaha Boy
I have problems making decisions with medium wired pairs. Let's define them for the purpose of this thread as pairs of 7s thru 10s.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out what to do on those occasions when you flop a set so skip that discussion.
Depending on the game texture in low limit (let's assume loose-passive), I'd like to hear some response for what you do with these hands preflop as follows:
1) UTG 2) Early position, first in 3) Middle position, first in 4) Middle position, several limpers 5) Late position, first in 6) Would you coldcall 2 bets in middle position 7) Would you coldcall 2 bets in late position 8) Betting then being raised (out of position)
I had intended to discuss what you would do in certain situations on the flop, but that would vary so much based on exactly what flops. So for simplicity's sake, let's stick to preflop actions.
Thanx in advance for your responses, Mike
Wired tens are a hand that a lot of players get into trouble with when they are starting out.
Your question is 'what do you do with wired tens'? The answer is It all depends. Let me give you some examples.
Playing TT UTG
What kind of game is it? Is there a chance you will pick up the blinds by raising TT UTG? Are you finding that you don't get any callers when you raise first in in early position? By all means go ahead and raise.
Is it a loose game where a raise won't knock anyone out? That's a tough one. There is a case to be made that TT will ALWAYS make more money when you raise with it, no matter how many callers you get. And they are probably right. But your swings will be huge if you raise and get six callers. It might take you a really long time to see the profits from this play, and if you don't have a large bankroll or don't like swings, don't do this.
Here is another problem with TT - if you get a lot of callers you will need a set to win. But that is precisely the problem. By landing a set, you put the straight card out there. Now everyone who called you with paint cards will have something to draw to.
Here is a fun trivia fact - a set of 5's has a LOWER chance of holding up than a set of 2's! Do you see how these concerns are related?
If you look at a graph of how often a set of tens holds up compared to the number of opponents, you see that it holds up JUST BARELY more often than a set of 9's and a LOT less often than a set of J's. That's because of the straight making problems I mentioned.
If you are first in in late positon, that's easy. Raise! With any luck you will get the blinds to think you are trying to steal the blinds and they will play back at you with hands like A9 and 66.
Middle positon, again it depends on how many callers you expect to get, and how badly you want big swings in your bankroll.
If you get reraised, it all depends on your opponent. Obviously, if you are playing correctly, you will have a reputation as being a tight UTG raiser - and trust me that's a good thing.
So if you get reraised you have to consider who's doing it. If it is someone that you KNOW would only do this with AA KK and maybe QQ, you obviously have to be careful. You should certainly call because the pot odds +implied odds you'll get when you flop a set and he has to call you down will be worth it.
If he would also reraise you with AK or even AQ or worse, then you are in a pickle. you might want to call him down if no A or K hit the board. It depends on your judgement and your perception of the other guy.
Anyway, thats the long story. Hope this helps.
Mike,
You simply cannot put 77 and TT in the same bracket. TT is a very strong hand. It is a profitable hand against any number of opponents, except maybe if it's three-betted or capped before it gets to you (that would suggest a higher pocket pair).
The way I see it is: TT is a monster, though not to be three-betted against a raisor if there's cold-callers between. It's a raising hand against any field of limpers (possibly not in BB, without the position), a three-betting hand against a mid or late position opener if one, six, seven or no-one else is in yet and not a fold against a single raise from any position.
I know many who hate the high mid-pairs (JJ thru 99). Jacks a close to my favourite hand, if there's such a thing. Whenever JJ or TT (I have better experiences with Jacks, though, to be honest) holds up, they are likely to scoop a very nice pot, because people with for instance top pair 9 or T will give you action as well as getting calls from people with two overcards, one overcard, one overcard and a gutshot and so on. And I'm not even mentioning the times you flop or turn a set (which in four cards, you actually get a considerable amount of the time).
99 is a good heads-up and three-way hand, raisable against one or two limpers if likely to steal the button and a raise from any position if no-one's in yet (that includes UTG).
88 and 77 are mainly hands played for these reasons: Stealing, outright odds (family pots, being in the blinds), but at least 88 is also raisable against one limper if very likely to steal the button or if being in the the button.
However, I would rarely raise any of these hands in BB, except for possibly TT against five or more limpers or two or less).
lars
9 handed 2/4$ online game.
I'm in the BB with 43 offsuit. The table suddenly goes superloose and the entire(!!) table limps. Wow.
Flop: J 4 4 rainbow.
Monsterflop for me I think.
Here comes the tough desicion, bet out or checkraise?
If I bet out I'll probably get a couple of callers. But is that such a bad thing with this particular flop? The best draws they could have is overcards or backdoors. The only dangerous cards on the turn are J's and people spiking their pocket pairs.
Anyway, I decide to checkraise. The button bets and I raise and manage to get it headsup with just me and the button.
I bet it all the way and win against his JTs.
Comments appreciated.
Sincerly, Andreas
I think you played it fine. Heads-up or three-way, you would maybe consider to pop it on the turn instead for greater revenue.
However, when eight other players see the flop, you are very vulnerable. You could already be beaten by JJ, a hand many LL players refuse to raise with unless they can get it heads-up. Therefore, you need to know where you stand on the flop. Check-raising is a fine way of doing that. If I'm re-raised after a check-raise on this flop, I'm only calling this one down if many players drop and the last two cards come 'unscary'. With this flop there aren't any obvious scare cards (except another jack if several players stays in for the turn), so what I'm saying is that you are calling this on down, but not raising on the expensive streets, if re-raised on a flop check-raise.
Remember, there's also a reason as to why many suddenly limps. Even though there's likely to be a couple of super-loose limps here, I would assume two or probably three pocket pairs, and then usually higher than yours, 6's, 7's and 8's are not unlikely here, and you could easily have as many as 6 outs against you (not to mention the free draws they can pick up) for a better full (another jack and two pocket pairs better than deuces (three's are impossible).
I once slow-played a similar flop with 34 under similar circumstances. It got round-checked on the flop (I actually had the FULL!), then capped two or three-way after a turn card Jack. I lost to Fours full.
lars
It's kind of dangerous being 9 handed because there is a good chance that somebody else has trips w/ a better kicker. When I get hands like this I check the flop and call. and raise the turn for more money and cross my fingers that nobody will outdraw me for cheap.
Sheck
While you have a pretty good flop, your hand is by no means a lock. Your goal should be to try and limit the field. i.e. there may be 3 or 4 players in there with pocket apirs and you want to try and knock them off (or at least most of them). So, you bet or go for the checkraise depending on which method you believe will be most likely to reduce the field. This in turn depends on where you think the bet will come from if you check or who might raise if you bet.
Note: With 18 other cards in play, don't be surprised to find someone else with a 4 and a better kicker.
Your problem with this flop is that the only people who will play with you are those who you DON'T want in there; namely pocket pairs. If the flop was something like 338, and you held 39o, you might want to bet out and let the overcards try to catch a pair for one SB. However, with this flop the only hands with precisely two overcards are AK and AQ, and since neither of these are all that likely (no pre-flop raise) you're probably not going to get any calls EXCEPT from those hands from which you DON'T want any action. As a result, you might as well try for the check-raise, and hope to get rid of any pocket pairs.
It's a bit of a trade-off. You'd like the overcards to stay, but you want the pocket pairs out. If the flop looks like the kind where you could get some overcards to peel (i.e., 44T, 559, etc,), then bet out and let 'em come. But when it's likely that no hands with overcards will come (that is, when a paint is present), you might as well check raise to expunge the pocket pairs and hope that someone flopped top pair.
Hope this helps,
Guy
Excellent point.
Didn't consider what the other card were besides the point that with all those limpers someone probably has caught the jack and will bet so I can checkraise.
I was kind of amazed to see all those limpers fold aswell. I thought atleast some of them would coldcall me.
skp's point about already beeing beat is also a good one. A4s and K4s (maybe even 54s) aren't impossible at all with all those limpers.
The more you learn the less you find out that you really know.
Sincerly, Andreas
4-8 game, 10 players. I am one off the button and get dealt AcKc. About 4 limpers to me and I just call. I called because this was an extremly tight game, and I wanted the button and blinds in. Button and SB fold, BB checks.
Flop is Jc8c3c. All check to me. I bet, all fold!
I think I made two big mistakes here. I should have raised BTF. The limpers were already committed, and most would have put in another bet. Also, on the flop, some might have read me for AA, KK, AKo, and stuck around for the flush draw with one club in their hand.
Second big mistake is that I should have slow played on the flop and just checked. When I came out betting after the flop, they correctly read me for an already made flop. I had the nuts and should have waited another round to bet.
Any comments?
comment 1) Like the name. Am I correct in assuming: Big silver fish?(if you're not from hawaii/don't know what I'm talking about, please disregard the above and take no offense)
comment 2) I do think you should raise pre-flop. if your opponents are observant, they won't necessarily be able to narrow down your holdings because of the number of limpers and your position. There's so many hands you could correctly raise in this spot, that you aren't giving anything away. Conversely, if they aren't observant, you may as well jack it up since this situation is ideal for big suited connectors. Plus a raise could buy you the button which is always good. Think of it this way: a raise here, if it chases out all but the limpers will get you four more small bets into the pot with fewer opponents gunning for you, last position, and a possible chance to steal if the flop doesn't hit anyone. Limping gets, at most, 1.5 more small bets in the hand, and three additional guns pointing at you. plus no last position, plus little chance to steal when it's checked to you.
Thanks for the reply. You are right on 1. I'm from Hawaii and of course it means the travelly.
Couldn't agree more with you on the comment BTF.
Papio
"I called because this was an extremly tight game, and I wanted the button and blinds in. Button and SB fold, BB checks."
Even though the game might be tight, once there are five players in the remaining players should be encouraged to play anyway. You should have raised.
In addition, your preflop raise would encourage tight players to go to the turn in case you flop something.
I wouldn't beat yourself up about the flop bet. If you have Kc and Ac, its pretty tough for anyone to have a club in their hand that they feel like calling with.
Sometimes you flop a monster and you just aren't going to get paid off. Imagine if you had AK and the flop was AAA. No matter how many times you check, you aren't going to get much action when you finally bet.
Of course, preflop you should raise.
OK, that's butchery, I'll give you that.
You should have raised pre-flop. AcKc likes many players, but it also doesn't mind few players. Once there were limpers, not raising was criminal. Why give the BB a FREE chance to beat you, when you are almost certainly way ahead? I always raise with AKs anyway, no matter who is in the pot or what my position. Since I raise with many other hands too, my opponents cannot easily or automatically put me on AK.
On the flop, betting out was the correct play. I virtually always bet a made flush on the flop, even if it's the nuts. Anyone with a decent club will call, but if you check, and it gets checked around, and then you bet the turn, they are more likely to fold. The reason for this is that now you are betting twice as much into the same size pot, so they are less likely to chase such a small pot. Get the money into the pot on the flop, when the bets are small, and people are more likely to call. The tendency of people to wait till the turn to "make their move" when they hit a big flop is misguided. They wind up costing themselves money, because people who would have called the flop will now fold, and because their opponents often correctly put them on a slowplay and fold. I know when certain opponents raise the turn, to fold, because they always slowplay their big hands, and make it all too obvious what they are doing.
Another point here is this: had you raised pre-flop, you would have been expected to bet the flop no matter what, and may have actually gotten callers instead of folders. Since you limped, it was more obvious that you hit the flop. Just a thought. As it was, if no one had a club, they probably would have just all folded anyway, no matter what, so don't worry about it.
Dave in Cali
On the flop, betting out was the correct play. I virtually always bet a made flush on the flop, even if it's the nuts. Anyone with a decent club will call, but if you check, and it gets checked around, and then you bet the turn, they are more likely to fold.
With the top 2 clubs accounted for already, any other clubs out there aren't going to be good clubs - especially considering the 5 way action. The queen is probably scared of the ace or king being out there with so many players, and lower clubs are even worse off.
Because of this, I don't agree with betting off on the flop. I don't think that people will call simply because of the cheap street, because the board is so dangerous. Even if they believe that you haven't made a hand, then they still may not call without a high club. Essentially, my point is that it's hard for an opponent to make a fundamental-theorem mistake with this board.
However, if it gets checked through to the turn, then there is a good chance you let someone else make a second-best hand. If the 4th club falls on the turn, then it's my experience that mediocre clubs, like the 10 or 9 are willing to call the bettor down. Even terrible clubs may call here. It's also possible, in the case that a non-club falls on the turn, that people may interpret a bet as a (middle or high) singleton club believing his draw is good. A singleton club may make this bluff himself.
I defintely agree with you that a preflop raise is required. This hand illustrates precisely how you can cause opponents to make errors by building a large pot. If the pot is larger, then it is a lot easier for other clubs to call.
You do have some good points, but generally, I think you should just bet it out anyway. That board really wasn't that great of a flop for him, in that he didn't stand to make much money from it, no matter what he did. In that case, I think you should just bet, take the pot, and get on with the next hand. It's nice to flop a flush, but if no one has a club, you aren't going to get much action anyway. As you stated, it's a hard board to get someone to make a mistake against you on. It is possible he might have gotten an extra bet somewhere by checking the flop, he could have even checked the turn as well and possibly induced a bluff on the river.
I haven't read all the responses yet, but I doubt there will be much dissention about raising pre-flop, which was clearly the better choice than calling, and had post-flop ramifications as well.
Good post Muffin
Dave in Cali
If you had raised pre-flop there would have been more money in the pot and this may have induced a call of your post flop bet.
extremely tight game and there were 4 limpers? What would you consider a loose game?
Yeah, it sounds like a contradiction, but this hand was an anomaly. Usually one raise BTF would win the pot, that's how tight this game was. This was my thought when I decided not to raise BTF. But what I forgot to consider was my position. A raise after all the limpers would have gotten a good many callers. Still trying to learn this game. :-)
Papio
As generalized advice Papio, if you have AKs, RAISE. If it's already raised, consider reraising. In a tight game, if you happen to just take the blinds, think of it like this: you won the pot without even having a pair!
Better advice still would be to find a looser game. Then still raise with AKs anyway.
Dave in Cali
I don't really think it is the end of the world to just call with AKs after a few limpers. Granted most would raise but these aren't the mistakes that make the difference between winners and losers at poker.
You have a hand that plays well multiway and you have some decptioin, should an A or K flop a weaker A or K will often pay you off.
ON the flop you should give consideration to checking. Very often some may bet to steal it or may begin to think his hand is much better than it is if the flop gets checked around. ALso should you bet the turn if it gets checked to you many will put you an a steal and call you down w/mediocre hands.
I suspect calling instead of raising is something like a 1BB mistake, while betting the flop cost much the player much more.
If not raising BTF was a 1BB mistake, then it was clearly a collosal mistake! Most players do not make 2 BB per hour, so that's a good portion of an hour's work, ASSUMING we are talking about a winning player. This all stands regardless of the flop, because the flop hasn't fallen yet, so you don't know what it will be. It would probably be next to impossible to calculate exactly what the difference would be, due to changing game conditions, player tendencies, etc. But I suspect that anytime you are in Papio's situation and you do not raise, you are making a -EV play, even if your hand still has a +EV anyway. The considerations of deception, inducing bluffs on later rounds, etc do not make it worth giving up the extra bets pre-flop when you have a great hand like AKs ini a multiway pot. Inducing a worse king to bet or call later does not give you as much value as charging him to see the flop now would. Think about it, charge him for four rounds, not three, and you will make even more money off him.
Once the flop comes, checking is a different story, but it is unrelated to his failure to raise pre-flop. Perhaps he would have done better by checking the flop, perhaps not, that issue is not as clear cut. I took the stance to bet, but others, including you, have offered some reasonable arguements to the contrary. I think I would have still bet the flop anyway though.
His greatest mistake was not raising pre-flop, which by the way, may have gotten him a caller when he bet the flop.
Your post was interesting, but I firmly stand on my stance to raise pre-flop.
Dave in Cali
Hi Guys/Gals:
My first time here. What a great forum!
I missed out on a pretty good-sized pot yesterday in a 4-8 game. I have a pretty good idea where I screwed up but thought I'd ask the experts here to confirm. I've been playing for about 3 months.
I was UTG with Ac,Qd. I limped in with six other callers behind me. The flop came Ks,Jd,10s. I HIT THE NUT STRAIGHT ON THE FLOP! I am concerned about the two spades on the board though. I bet and everyone called behind me.
The turn was a 6s. Oh man, another spade. I'm thinking I've got to make these flush drawers pay to see the next card so I made up my mind that I would check-raise. I felt reasonably confident there would be a bet behind me because the bettin was pretty loose.....Everyone checked all the way around!!! OUCH!
The 3s hit on the river and my heart sunk. I checked and there were two betters. I felt I had to call at this point. I did, and some joker in middle position had 4s,8s to hit a flush!
Obvoiusly, if I could do the turn over, I would have bet outright and made him pay to see the turn again. Maybe he would have folded since his cards were weak even though he had a flush draw.
Please let me know where I went wrong with this..
Thanks a bunch, Jeff Cooper St. Louis, MO
Tough hand.
I think your big mistakes here were not raising preflop and calling on the river. The guy with 4s8s might still have called your preflop raise, but you didn't give him any reason not to.
I don't know why the guy with 4s8s wasn't betting the turn. He's the one that should be worried about the draws!
Betting the flop was fine.
I don't think checkraising the turn was too good of an idea. You might be checkraising a flush. Checking probably isn't wise either and you are giving the draws a free card. I think you have to bet the turn and see where you are. Correct?
Sheesh, what did the caller on the river have? The 7s?
There's nothing you could've done unless you were playing no limit. You can't make the odds bad enough on the flop to chase out a four-flush. Remember, he only needs about 4:1 odds, and maybe even less. There are already seven small bets in there, an the most you can charge him is two small bets. Including the one bet from the last position player, and then your raise in first position, he would be getting 5:1. On the turn you have no chance whatsoever, as he's already made his hand. Why didn't he bet the hell out of it? Anyway, your check only saved you money, but i would've bet here, and folded to a raise (or maybe called, depending on if the player knows enough to be scared of the flush card)
First off, limping UTG with AQo is a mistake. Either fold it or raise, but if you play, you want to raise to limit the field. The player with 8s4s may have folded preflop had you raised, thus allowing your straight to hold up.
I think a better time to try for a check-raise would have been the flop. With all those limpers, someone would have probably bet, then you could have raised and forced some players to call two cold, and charge the flush draws as much as possible.
On the turn, your logic is all screwed up. You should bet here, to prevent anyone with a single spade from getting a free card. You might consider folding if someone raises your bet, depending what you know about them. Check-raising when the third spade hits is not the way to go, that third spade will look just as scary to everyone else as it does to you. Who do you think is going to bet when the third spade hits? Then you're going to put MORE money into the pot, after a new bettor comes out? The standard play with a hand like top pair would be to bet, and fold if raised. With a flopped broadway, your decision is a little harder. However, checking is the WORST play you could have made on the turn, IMO.
And by the way, the way your post is written, he already had a flush on the turn, so charging him to draw when he already has a made hand does not really apply here.
By the time the river comes and you have a bettor and a caller, your broadway is dead, give it up and save the bet. Your chance to charge them to draw has come and gone, and now you are probably third, which pays nothing.
Ironically, you probably would have lost more money if you had played this hand better. But, you may have also wound up winning the pot, especially if you had raised pre-flop.
Dave in Cali
The turn was a 6s. Oh man, another spade. I'm thinking I've got to make these flush drawers pay to see the next card so I made up my mind that I would check-raise. I felt reasonably confident there would be a bet behind me because the bettin was pretty loose.....Everyone checked all the way around!!! OUCH
You're thinking about this the wrong way. In order to checkraise, you need to anticipate a bet behind you. However, when there are draws behind you, then there is a good chance they will not bet. They will check hoping for a free card. You cannot prevent free cards by going for a checkraise.
Not allowing a free card is more important than making players call 2 bets. I believe this is true in general, though there are of course exceptions. In this case, I am certain that preventing a free card is more important.
I don't know about you guys, but I'd be at the WSOP if I were an expert, instead of slugging out $200-$300 nights here in Louisiana.
I play UTG and I hold AQo. I raise, two others call. Flop comes 4s8hJd. 1. Do I bet or do I check? 2. If I check and one of the other two bets,
do I call, raise or fold?
cheers, demis.
Since this is the low stakes forum, I am assuming that you are in a typical low limit game which is loose and passive. Your opponents in these games will frequently cold-call raises with junk not realizing the mistake they are making.
Against only two opponents, I would bet and give them a chance fold. You will occasionally win the pot outright. If you check, then I think you should call if someone else bets. You have six outs to top pair which is a 7-to-1 shot and the pot odds are there to call. I would not worry too much about domination in these low limit games since guys cold-call raises on small pairs, any Ace, any two suited cards, etc.
Against 2 opponents I'll usually bet. There's a fair chance you have the best hand.
If you decide to check (either because there are more players or you don't like the competition you drew) I think it's correct to fold in LL. Players will frequently call raises with any ace. If one opponent has A-4 and another 9-10 you're drawing dead. Give the small pot away.
You can protect yourself from people stealing from you by occasionally check raising the flop with a big pair.
I was recently reading Mike Caro's "Fundamental Secrets of Winning Poker"
I liked the book and I always enjoy reading Caro's stuff, but......
In that book he advises not raising preflop very often because with many hands, you want to see the flop cheaply and see how your hand develops. So much of your hand is determined by the flop, why not get there cheap and see how you like it?
He also mentioned that if players are playing rotten hands against you (like 4s8s), so much the better, don't knock them off those hands.
A recent post of his to RGP ended with:
"By the way, y'all are doing way too much raising before the flop."
He also leans toward waiting until the turn to raise with medium-strong hands (bottom two pair) to encourage those with trash hands and habitual bluffers to stay in an pay for a turn raise. Another reason is that bottom two pair is often cracked.
However, much of what I have observed shows that if you let trash hands in cheap and let them continue cheap - one of them beats you.
The post below of AQo vs 48s highlights that pretty well. I realize that was a nightmare hand for a flopped straight, but jeez, if the 48s doesn't get there, someone else is likely to with a lot of opponents.
I can't remember if he addresses AQo UTG directly.
I understand there will be situations where not raising preflop makes sense, but he seems to favor calling in most situations, then reading and outplaying your opponents.
Anyone agree with Caro's preflop strategy?
I am not familiar with Mike Caro's specific preflop playing recommendations but anyone who fails to raise preflop with AA,KK,QQ,JJ, or AK is making a big mistake in my opinion.
He does advocate raising with AA-QQ, but advises just calling in the blinds with them pretty often.
I think you should raise with your big pocket pairs even from the blinds against limpers regardless of how many. Yes, you are an underdog against a collective but you are the individual favorite and when you win you will win a much larger pot as a result. In a full-tabled limit hold'em game with lots of players it will take the best to win and deception and position are not worth nearly as much as people think.
I wouldn't include position in your last sentence. Deception certainly takes a back seat in loose ring games but position is huge in any game played with a button.
I can't agree with Caro on this one. In the loose/passive games here in Louisiana, you ALWAYS get 4-5 callers with sub-par hands, making you odds on favorite to win the pot in the end.
I think most of Mike Caro's advice is directed towards high limit and no limit. So I don't know how much of it would apply to low limit poker.
I play the middle limits mostly ($15-$30 to $30-$60), I know of no working pro at these limits who does not normally raise with AA,KK, or QQ against limpers unless he is trying to vary his play for some reason. Some may not raise with QQ from the blind against a lot of limpers but virtually all of them raise with AA or KK.
Hi all,
Just checked the book to see what Caro said:
"My opinion is that most otherwise-skilled players are too aggressive in hold 'em before the flop, particularly from early positions."
He then goes on to spend a few pages discussing pre-flop play from EARLY position. He does say to raise however with AA,KK,QQ, and AK "and possibly JJ." He says AQs is not always profitable UTG, but should almost always be played. I think his comments on pre-flop calling are about opening the pot from early position only.
Another interesting point Caro makes is:
"I further think that pro-level players raise too much behind a call before the flop. Again, I think they can often make more money just calling and seeing the flop cheaply. However I concede that whenever a raise will greatly enhance your chances of either taking a pot outright now or ending up splitting the blinds (and/or antes) with just one other competitor, you may want to raise."
I think this point is one that people will really disagree with.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
I agree position is of the utmost. Futhermore, not raising with AA, KK, QQ does add an element of deception to your game and when you fill your set you get paid alot more than you would be betting pre-flop at least this has been my experience. If you bet these out pre flop it is too easy to put you on a big set. However, I would advocate varying how you play these hands to keep your oponent guessing.
Hello,
I've seen Caro's book at most large bookstores, if you happen to be in one, go ahead and breeze through the Hold Em section. He says his comments are directed toward "typical" Hold Em games.
One of his main points is that he says that most experienced Hold Em players are too aggressive preflop.
One of his overall strategies is "People don't come to the poker room to fold, they want to call. I don't want to discourage their tendency towards calling by raising them out."
A couple of the reasons he mentions for raising is to get headsup or steal the blinds. He specifically does not want people who tend play weak hands too far to fold. He doesn't say NEVER raise prefop with strong hands, he just makes the observation that most experienced HE players are far too aggressive.
I tried to implement a bit of it last night in a juicy 6/12 game, limping with AK or AKs in situations where I would normally raise from mid or early position. I would not adjust my strategy to be more passive in late position.
It worked GREAT! I limped from Mid and Early and loose players beind me came in with trash. I saw the flop cheaply, then caught a good piece of it. Mike's da Mad Genius!
A few hands where I had AKs, AK, AQs, AQ:
Flop was A68, loose opponent had 68o. Ouch.
Flop was A78, turn 6, loose opponent had 59s. That left a mark.
Flop was A69, you guessed it, loose opponent had 69o. Can't fault a guy for playing the Big Lick I guess.
Flop comes Queen high. Me and a flush draw go 3 bets on the flop, flush hits the river for T6s. Still walking funny after that one.
OK. Screw THAT!
Now, these are not bad-beat stories. I limped and invited these hands into the pot. The flop was seen 4 or 5 handed, a raise early might have thinned the field.
My general perception of the idea that you should not be aggressive before the flop is this: IT SUCKS.
To be fair, I did have a rotten night with good starting hands last night.
I did not slowplay any hand AA-JJ (I'm not that goofy). Didn't matter, they got snapped anyway. Oh well.
Now, I realize that one session does not give you definitive results on a strategy, but I just don't want to find out what will happen if I continue to limp with AK and AQ. I think this strategy might work in a fantasy land where good hands don't get snapped when you let your opponent in cheap. I sure don't live there.
Hey! Maybe that's it!! Mike wanted to see cheaper flops, so he wrote a book telling others not to raise. If he could get enough people to follow his advice, he would not face so many raises with his marginal hands!!
He IS a genius!
You know Dan C, I have to wonder many hours per year some of these authorities actually play full tabled limit hold'em. From what I gather, Mike Caro wrote his hold'em report and other hold'em stuff about 15-20 years ago. How many hours per year was he actually playing? How many hours per year does he play now? It would not surprise me if he hardly plays the game at all between all of his other activities.
The more I play hold'em and the more I read about what other writers and experts publish about this game, the more convinced I become that many of these guys have very little actual playing experience. It is one thing to have high IQ, understand math, be capable of running computer simulations, and have a lot of notions about how the game should be played but there is really no substitute for experience. I would be surprised if many of them play as much as 500 hours a year. I would guess that some of them don't play 200 hours a year.
Two problems with this strategy: (1) it costs you when you fail to extract the maximum preflop with a better hand, and (2) it costs you more by bringing in opponents who collectively (although perhaps not individually) dilute the value of your hand, sometimes even making it a negative when you hit the flop. For example, if you have AK with a K56 flop against several opponents with draws, your flop bets often have a negative expectation. When they don't they can be so marginally positive that you're effectively gambling with the best hand instead of truly punishing your opponents. See Morton's Theorem.
There has been a lot of criticsim on r.g.p. on Caro's preflop advice, raising the same good points you do and more. The consensus is unfavorable. I like Caro too, but from my perspective the most devastating practical rejoinder to his hold 'em advice is that I've never seen a winning player that followed it.
Thanks to everone for the great responses.
I think the rest of MC's book is great, just wanted to gather some other opinions of his preflop comments.
I think too many are quick to criticize advice without appreciating why it is given.
While I don't have Caro's book with me, I believe his rationale would be something like this,'by calling you allow some players to see the flop cheaply who will be making a mistake by calling if they could see your hand. They would however correctly fold if you had raised. So by calling you gain.'
Granted you gain some equity in some situations and lose some in others. And it seems players seems to remember the losses much more.
I suspect this principle (allowing some people to call incorrectly) is more profitable in other poker games than holdem (say draw for example).
Another advantage to just calling is you may get someone to pay off all the way w/a weaker A, while you might not have gotten him to had you just called.
However by calling you do encourage a multiway pot which can often be bad for big unsuited cards, and one can rarely steal in such situtaions.
But I must say I think the criticism of one's advice should based on his arguments for actions not his actions.
(n/t)
One thing you fail to realize is that you will win less often when you allow weak hands to enter the pot but when you do win you should win more. Just how much more depends on the type of players you're against. How far will they go with a losing hand? When you play AK and the flop comes A56 you should realize that you could very well be behind. Maybe it's you who goes too far with the losing hand. I do think Caro's advise is sound for early position, and is potentially more profitable depending on the game.
clovis,
What gave you the impression I held onto my hands too long? In the hands I mentioned, I obviously did not bet the river or pay off any raises.
It's pretty easy to let go of top pair good kicker when you let multiple opponents in cheap preflop and a straight or a flush hits the board. Especially when there is a lot of action.
On the other hand, if it's headsup and you start mucking top pair top kicker with regularity, even the weakest player will run over you with a draw.
I understand that A56 isn't a dream flop for AQ or AK...
But do you check this flop and give out free cards? Do you check and fold? Do you check and call? Do you bet and make the draws pay when they win? Or do you raise preflop and at least try knock out a hand like 56, 34, and 78o?
Which of the positions above do you advocate?
Can it also be argued that when I raise UTG with these hands and my opponents go ahead and call the raise and I end up winning, I win even MORE than if I had just called and let them limp?
I realize that when you win, you win more, but for me, those extra bets have not made up for the entire pots lost on the turn and river - especially when I gave the late position speculative hands the proper price by not raising preflop.
You make some good points, but In my experience i've found the ONLY reason to raise preflop is to get more money in the middle. It just seems like most players call with trash anyway at the limits I play (3-6, 4-8). So I would raise with AKo in late position but would limp UTG. I think this strategy gives you a lot of maneuvering room from EP and doesn't give away too much info LP because they expect a raise out of you (not that anyone is really paying attention any way, right?).
I would certainly bet the A56 flop, EP, against many opponents and would probably try for a check-raise if there happened to be 3 or fewer players who saw the flop (yeah right). I would recognize the potential draws and would probably go into a check and call mode if the draw was completed heads up, and consider check and fold against many opponents. This type of situation is just so much easier to play from late position, and can be very tricky (and costly) when you are out of position that I think limping EP makes very good sense.
I agree that 3/6 and 4/8 players will call with trash and limping sometimes with AK is okay. I don't think I will do it as often as Caro and others say to do it.
Another way I got burned by limping with big cards was the fact that someone raising behind me can only make it two bets. If I had raised and someone behind me made it three bets, there is much more of a chance that people will let go of a speculative hand like 78. I know my hand is better and all that, but against a lot of players, that ol' man river hits them more than me!
This happened to me last night in a relatively 'normal' 6/12 game. I limped behind a very loose-passive UTG player with KQs (I will often raise a very loose player here)
The player to my right raised. The button, blinds, original bettor, and myself called.
Flop was king high, I had the best hand on the flop, raised it, and got run down by a straight from the buttton or SB (don't remember exactly which).
Had I raised, the player to my left would have 3-bet with QQ and very likely chased the winner out. I understand I was a huge dog to QQ with KQs, but the reality is the only chance I had to take down that pot was to raise it preflop. Of course if I flop overcards with no draws I can easily let my hand go, and the raiser on my left was extremely easy to read. In fact you didn't have to read him. If anyone bet when an overcard to his pocket pair hit, he pitched a visible fit.
I just keep seeing situations where aggressive play on my part wins more money than passive play.
I'm sorry Dan, but I don't agree with you. It seems that with a hand like KQs you're doomed if you hope to make money by forcing everyone out except the ones who will cold call 2 bets. It seems to me you would be making all of the hands that you gain profit from drop out and leaving the hands that dominate you. Think about the situation: the hero in early position raises with KQs and the player to his left who holds QQ reraises. Now who calls? AA, KK, JJ, AK, AQ, etc. (You don't mind JJ too bad) When I pick up a hand like KQ in EP I hope for alot of callers and no raisers. It's not that I'm too passive, I will play aggressively in the right situation. Like you said, many players are so easy to read it's pathetic, so where you stand to manipulate them the most is when they have already acted. I'm no pro and your opinion certainly seems more in line with most of the posters here so maybe I'm costing myself some profit but playing this way has worked out for me lately. Good luck to you.
PP 10-handed $3-6. I open-limp 5 off the button with KhQc (I dump this hand earlier unless the game is loose and raise with it later. I'm just never sure what to do with it here). 2 off the button calls, sb calls, bb checks. Flop = 7s3d2d. Sb bets, bb folds, I call, other limper folds, heads-up now.
I called because the sb is moderately aggressive but tricky and would almost certainly try to check-raise with a good top pair or better. I didn't raise because it's completely non-credible and I didn't want him 3-betting me to prove he's not drawing. I figure there's a good chance my hand is either best or I can get a free card if a diamond doesn't hit the turn.
T = 9s. With most the hands I think he can have here, he's not going to like this card much (but I would). He bets anyway. I usually fold overcards at this point, but I'm intrigued and call.
R = 9h. He bets. Raise, fold or call?
It certainly is a good spot for a bluff raise. About the only hands the typical oppponent would bet the river are those that include a 9 or a hand like A7 or perhaps a slowplayed big overpair. But if you are right that he would go for checkraises with a strong 7 or an overpair on the flop, then the river bet smells like a bluff.
If you had limped in with AJ instead of KQ, I presume that you would call the river in a heartbeat.
As Jim often says (and I agree wholeheartedly), there is a big difference between AJ and KQ.
That's the funny thing; I'd rather have KQ than AJ IF I'm going to flop something, but I'd rather have AJ if I'm going to miss.
Definitely. AJ is call or fold. I would have called.
Chris--
I'd dump on the flop. I know this sounds like a weenie play, but... he could have 55, and as we both know the average Paradise player sees that as a MONSTER which needs to be played out to the river. Or, 44, A2s,... God only knows. You're getting 5:1 on a 7:1 shot, but someone could pop it behind you and if you're right-- that is, he doesn't have anything--- you've got no implied odds since he's going to fold if you hit.
That said, when the 9 drops on the turn I would raise if I was going to play out the hand. At this point, if he calls, his most likely holding is a diamond draw, which you probably have beat (yes, I recognize there's a chance he has a goofy A with a wheel draw):) hence, you can check down the river and win. You could bluff bet the river after the turn raise, but I imagine there's almost no chance of a worse hand folding.
But the turn call? I don't know where that's going. You're getting 4.5:1 odds, which doesn't seem like enough... and although you're partially compensated by the fact that he might give up his bluff on the river and you'll win unimproved (or bet and win, whatever), I don't know if this makes up for the poor odds on your draw. If you're calling the turn to set up a bluff on the river, you might as well bluff raise now, thereby only committing two BB's to the pot as oppposed to 3, and giving him one less card with which to catch something.
Anyway, on the river I think you're in a jam. A bluff raise isn't a bad idea, but many players will call you down-- simply out of curiousity-- with any pair, since they can't put you on a 9 (figuring you would have raised the turn) and it's not clear what else you'd be raising with. Further, so many Paradise players are so used to being played back at by players with no hand that they learn they almost have to call with anything.
It's a high risk play, and while it looks like it could have +EV it can't be a winner by much. On the balance, I think there were probably other ways to play it that could have made it more profitable (or less of a loss).
Guy
BTW, answer me when I type your name in the chatboxes!! At least tell me to go away. I look like a doofus calling your name over and over, only to have you ignore me. :)
His turn bet makes it more likely he's got nothing, as with little he'd check (I think). I don't like raising the turn here because it looks a little too obvious: he'll probably call and check on the end, and if I haven't improved I'm not sure what to do. If he misses on the end but a diamond or low card pair hits on the river he might try to resurrect his bluff and then I can't call. But if he bets another non-diamond overcard on the river I think I can reliably put him on a bluff, or at least a hand with which he can't call a raise on the end. The paired nine was unexpected. It was a bad card for me that might have looked like a worse card for him.
In a small, unraised pot I would dump these overcards. There is simply no dough to chase and you will not win 100% of the time even when you hit.
On the turn, being "intrigued" does not merit continuing to play no pair, no draw, and no hand. You are a dog to ace-high.
At the river, since you cannot survive a show down you have to either give it up or make a play by raising. Personally, I would fold since it is hard to believe that a running pair has given you trips. With a top pair of nines you might have raised on the turn. Last minute river raises with no completed draw to represent like a made flush or straight rate to get called more often than not so I think raising is a waste of money.
Yeah, this is the problem: there's almost no way I've got a 9 and if he thinks about this he'll call me with the hand that the play is designed to make him dump.
But I'm not folding on the flop. If he checks the turn as I expect I'll be betting a big chunk of the deck and expect to take it down all the times he's just taken a stab at a garbage flop, and if he's got a flush draw I'll probably win most of the time that he misses on the end.
Anyway, I raised and he dropped in a heartbeat, so I guess I lucked out by running into a non-nut draw or some other hand I could probably beat. The reason I posted this was that it seemed the only sensible thing to do, and I wanted a second opinion.
What are all of your philosophies in play Ax(s) and Kx(s)? Should these hands be played in late posion? Mid Position? Early? I think it is ok to play these hands in late position in an un-raised flop and see if the flop is to your liking? All input appreciated. Thanks
Early Position...I dislike both hands, cant get deceived just because they are suited....
Middle Position...I would play some...more of Ax(s) then Kx(s) because you dont wanna get screwed by early position players holding Aces.
Late Position...I would hold almost anything, if the pot is short handed. Otherwise there is a good chance you can get beat out. Something like K3(s) would be unexceptable to play...especially shorthanded.
Shaftman
I want 5 callers to play Axs , and i only play Kxs on the button or small blind.
THE TRICK TO PLAYING Ax(s)& Kx(s) IN EARLY POSITION IS LOOSE PASIVE GAMES ONLY. IF YOUR GETTING 6+ CALLERS AND NO RAISING (OR 8+ CALLERS AND OCCAISIONAL LATE POSITION RAISER) ALMOST EVERY HAND PREFLOP. GO FOR IT!
MID-POSITION. LOOSE PASIVE GAME AND 2+ CALLERS MANDITORY!(AND 4 MORE YOU EXSPECT ONYOUR LEFT) SO GLANCE LEFT BEFORE BETTING.
LATE-POSITION. 5 CALLERS MINUMUM (BB WILL BE YOUR 6TH). PASIVE GAME NO MORE THAN 1 RERAISE PRE FLOP.
THE DANGER IN PLAYING THIS HAND (OUT OF POSITION) IS FAILING TO ACHIEVE PROPER POT ODDS. IF YOUR OPONATES ARE GIVING YOU THE OPPERTUNITY, TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT. BUT YOUR JUDGEMENT OF THE SITUATION BETTER BE ACCURATE!! ALSO AFTER WINNING WITH THIS IN EARLY POSITION. TIGHTENUP YOUR HAND SELECTION, TILL THINGS MELLOW OUT AGAIN. AGAINST WEAK UNOBSERVANT PLAYERS DON,T WORRY ABOUT IT.
IMO! ROOFER (THIS WILL CAUSE SOME FLACK)
Dream table - Very loose and fairly passive
I am one off the button with K,K. 4 limpers before me. I raise - Button and SB fold, BB calls.
12 SB in the pot
My typical K,K flop - A,Q,2 rainbow.
I am done with this hand if someone bets - which I fully expect here since nobody gives the raiser any respect and everyone here will play any A.
checked to me and I check. wow
Turn is a 6 (suiting the Q).
BB bets out and everyone else folds. I thought about it for a long time and decided to call. Three reasons: 1) I had a decent read on this player and would have expected him to bet his A on the flop and I had never seen him check-raise 2) Could be semi-bluffing with flush draw and/ lower pair 3) pot was laying me 4 to 1 to call down to the river.
BB also leads on the river. I call. He flashes his Q immediately and says your Kings are good and mucks before I turn over my cards.
would anyone fold on the turn or river? If I had seen this guy check-raise before would that make any difference? How about betting on the flop after eveyone checks?
Bet it once when it's checked to you. Who knows, maybe nobody has an A. I once won a 480$ 20-40 pot with pocket 10's on a AKQ75 board (nobody bet any round), so stranger things have happened. If you're check-raised, you're probably done. If someone just calls you have a decision to make, although I'd probably try to check it down.
I would bet the flop 90% of the time when checked to on the button.
If i get more than 1 caller i check the rest of the hand . If i only get 1 caller i might take one more shot on the turn , then check the river.
I agree w/the other posters. I would bet the flop in this situation. I would assume I have the best hand unless someone demonstrates that their hand is better by raising or betting. If you bet the flop here, I am guessing that all the players would have mucked. TL
I normally will check the flop on this, and fire on the turn, or raise if im bet into. Your way to weak here. In these types of games people bet any ace more times than not, and a slow play isn't something you should worry about. If he is slow playing its with AQ; where he is going to reraise the turn and you get out of the hand. But he isn't going to just slow play an A. Bet/Raise the turn is the play with the greatest EV I think. And bet/call the river.
-mdr
Bet the flop, obviously.
Now, if early position had bet and there were a few callers I'd fold. If there were a bet and a raise I'd probably fold out of turn just to get as far away from that disappointing hand as possible.
Standard play in my book is bet the flop if last to act. Then if you bet the turn and get checkraised then fold.
Or you can check through the turn, and then call on the river for 1 bet, fold for 2 bets, and bet if it's checked to me. Fold if checkraised.
Hi guys,
I'm posting this here to torment David Ottosen, another poster to this forum, and also as a preemptive measure ... as this was the hand which sent him walking last night.
PREFLOP
In the hand in question, I have the {ahem} "beautiful" 96 of spades in my big blind. David O is 2nd UTG. UTG folds, David O limps, 5 more limp in, and I check.
7 players, 7 sb in pot.
FLOP: Q 7 5 rainbow, with one spade.
David O leads, 4 callers, I call. At this point I'm getting 12 to 1 on a call, and I close the action, so I see nothing wrong here. If I don't catch good on the turn, I'm gone, of course.
6 players, 13 sb = 6.5 bb in pot.
TURN: 4s
Well, now I'm open-ended, and I've picked up a spades draw. Again David O leads, 2 call, and I call, getting 9.5 to 1. Here I think my play is fine, although maybe I should even have considered a check-raise for value. My draws are not as strong as I might like them to be for this play, though, but what do you guys think?
4 players, 10.5 bb in pot.
RIVER: 8d
Well, that just made my hand. I bet, and only David O calls. My straight is good, and he shoots me a pained expression as he reveals a Q as he mucks.
As for the question posed in the title of this post, I feel my play if "run of the mill," but I'm curious to know what the others here might think.
Dave
P.S. For what it's worth, after this hand, I went into poker purgatory, waiting over 2.5 hours to drag my next pot. No good suckout goes unpunished, eh?
The play is "run of the mill" and you played it correctly.
A check-raise for value would be incorrect. First, you are not getting proper odds. 15 outs/47 cards for a touch less than 3 to 1. Second, you can't assume the three other players will all call. Third, you will get no action on the river unless you are probably beat (e.g., higher flush).
.
You clearly had the odds to call both times. You had to bet the river. I would cast my vote for "Super-Genius".
Dave in Cali
.
I think you played it fine. I don't really consider it a suckout when you had odds to call.
I don't think a checkraise on the turn as 1) its unlikely you will steal the pot now 2) if you get reraised leaving you heads up, your slighly profitable play (raising 2 opponents whne you have 15 outs ) becomes unprofitable 3) your 15 outs aren't neccessarily "clean" as a 3 could easily result in a chop and there is a chance someone has a bigger flush...
As for the river, a check raise is in order unless you opponent(s) are such wimps that they will check it down even though none of the apparent draws got there.
IMO run of the mill. What did dave have w/his queen? Why was he crying? If he had a K or an A w/his Q he should have raised pre-flop. That might have sent you packing out of the BB. You just out drew the best hand on the river. It obviously happens quite often w/7 players taking the flop. Check-raising is incorrect. TL
I've been trying to forget the hand but I think I had tilt limped in with my favorite hand to play against you and lose money with: QJo.
It wasn't so much that one hand as the sequence of hands that had preceded it, with the river hit beating me each time. Then I flop top pair on a rainbow board of Q-7-5 and no overcards hit and still get bonked.
The flop is the only place I think you maybe made a marginal play. Your odds of hitting your gutshot are ok, and you were last to act. Still, I think this adds a higher element of variance than is necessary for the level of play we are facing (plus the fact that I might kill you when you hit). Other than that, an ok play.
On the turn, your checkraise is going to meet a reraise from me, and its quite possibly going to be heads up (or one of us will win a much bigger pot against the usual collection of bad players), so I think you were wise not to checkraise there (the considered impudence!). Of course, you don't consider folding the turn; you have all "Mortenson like" outs.
On the river, the only surprise for me was that it was you with a 6, AND that you were the only one with a 6.
That was when I made the best move of the night and got up and left. Some nights the gods just want to laugh at you. While I might not believe in unlucky seats or running bad, I do believe that if you are losing a lot of pots (legitimately or on suckouts) other players smell blood and start believing they can suck out on you, and when you are up against 5-6 players on the river every time with what is usually a solid hand (top pair or two pair), quite often the suckout WILL happen and you will be shooting pained expressions. As they saying goes: when everyone's out to get you...paranoia is just smart thinking.
David "You haven't lived this one down yet Shaw" Ottosen
OK,
So, as I alluded at the end of my last post, I went through a period of "poker purgatory" during my last session. I had a couple of hands cracked, and a lot of overcards that missed and had to be mucked. (The fish were so obviously taking shots at me after a while, that I had to push one hand a little longer than I wanted to to try and get them off my back.)
But at any rate, I felt I was starting to get a little tentative towards the end. Here's one hand I think I maybe I should have been a little more forceful with.
PREFLOP
We're playing 7-handed, and I'm on the button with KK. 4 limpers, and I raise. BB calls, as do the limpers.
6 players, 12 sb in the pot.
FLOP: 7 5 5 two-tone.
Action is checked to me, I bet, only UTG calls.
UTG is a passable player, who is reasonably decent at hand reading, but whose hand selection is a little loose.
2 players, 7 bb in pot.
TURN: offsuit 4
We both check.
Despite his being UTG, I felt I could not safely rule out the flop having hit him, plus, given his skill at hand reading, he will likely be calling having a better idea of where I am than I do of where he is. I hoped to avoid a check-raise if I was behind, and maybe induce a bluff/thin value bet if I was ahead.
RIVER: offsuit T
UTG bets, I call.
Results to follow, but do you guys think I should have pushed things further, or did I do fine as I played it??
Dave
Well, I ended up winning.
UTG surprised me by turning over QQ. I win with the better two pair.
Dave
You're not going to get arrested for gambling.
I think you definately should bet the turn. There are a ton of hands he could have that you want to make him pay with - flush draw, straight draw, pocket pair, over cards.
It gets tricky if he check-raises you. Whether you laydown on a check-raise depends on your read of the player (e.g., will he play back at you thinking you have overcards, will he semi-bluff with a draw, will he check-raise with anything less than a set?)
Little value in trying to induce a bluff on the river by checking on the turn. Lets assume you are ahead. Inducing a bluff extracts exactly one bet out of him. Given this board, a turn bet by you will almost certainly get called here and you mostly likely will get payed off on the river netting you two bets.
Time to look at the results
Misplayed. You checked the turn for fear of an unlikely hand. It's deadly because you'll fail to extract a premium when you're ahead but will pay the premium when you're behind and your opponent is sensibly aggressive. This approach is a major reason that some tight players struggle in low limit games against looser but more aggressive opponents.
The better reason in this particular case would be to induce a bluff or value bet on the river, at which point you should raise. But against a loose caller your default option should be to simply bet your hand.
The rare exception would be a rockish player who never plays a paired flop against a preflop raiser without the bigger piece of it. You'll find guys like this in low limit, but they stand out like oreos in a snowbank.
I'm so proud I haven't peeked.
I thought you played the hand week. I would have absolutly came out guns a'blazzing, fireing into that pot.
You definitly have the best of it here, and you need to run with it. Also if you are convinced that the UTG player is a fab. hand reader raising after the flop is a great way to see where you're at in the hand. Even though I wouldn't lay down into a reraise raise on the turn, as I would call him down.
These are the type of situations in low limit where I think you need to make your money. I put him on 8-7 or a middle pair.
-mdr
I think this is a feel thing. Sure you want to get max value for you hand, but I like you get a little nervous when someone smooth calls a flop like that. I probably would bet the turn and call down if raised. tl
Saw a great hand that shows why not to do this!
Loose 6/12 game.
I am just to the left of UTG with AdKd and call an UTG raise. Mid position re-raises. Cutoff, BB, UTG, and myself call.
Flop is Ah8h9h. BB bets, UTG raises. Now, UTG had been jamming his draws all night so I raised to see if I couldn't raise everyone out and take down the pot if a heart didn't fall. (This had worked a couple times that evening) I also wanted to find out early if he or anyone flopped a flush.
MP calls 3, Cutoff reraises, BB reraises UTG folds (He had AK also) and its back to me.
I found out what I needed! I fold. MP folds. The betting is capped between the Cutoff and the BB.
Turn is a blank. BB and Cutoff go 5 bets. BB finally just calls.
Cutoff bets the river in the dark.
River is the Th. BB raises the dark bet. OK, everyone in the county knows that the BB just hit a straight flush.
Everyone except the Cutoff.
The Cutoff for some reason thought that the BB read his bet in the dark as a bluff so he brilliantly reraises. BB pops it again and Cutoff finally calls.
Cutoff had Kh6h for the nut flush and of course the BB had QhJh. BB took down $385 pot and a complimentary Canterbury Downs hat baseball cap!
I get snapped off so often by people cold calling with Kxs that I admit I liked seeing it get crushed.
Actually, I like the dark bet once in a while, for psychological effect mainly. However, when you are looking at the nut flush, and your bet has just been raised, you should consider WHAT YOUR OPPONENT MIGHT HAVE. This is not something that is real common in low limit games.
I like the dark bet when I have a relatively strong hand, but not necessarily the pure nuts, and I am against an opponent who can fold a decent hand, but might also call me with a weak hand if he thinks I am bluffing. It is hard to predict what any given opponent may think of your dark bet, or how they will react. for this reason, I will only do it with a relatively strong hand, one that can definitely withstand a call, but wouldn't be horribly disappointed with a fold either.
Here's a hand where I bet in the dark. I had AsKs and raised preflop first in, mid position. A rather tight and conservative player, who had posted in the cutoff, calls, as do both blinds, whom are loose players.
Four of us took the flop, which was Kd Ts 9s. I flopped a strong hand, and the best draw, but in reality I only have one pair, not even close to the nuts. It's checked to me and I bet, a semi-rock raises me. Both blinds fold and I three bet, rock calls.
Before the dealer was able to burn and turn, I had already confidently bet again, totally unconcerned with what the turn card might be. This is a pretty safe bet, because even if I get raised, I will have to call. If the flush card comes, I am loving it, ESPECIALLY if my opponent now gets suspicious and doesn't put me on a flush. I probably won't get this opponent to fold a better hand, but I might get him to fold a hand that would have wound up drawing out on me, which would be fine with me. If I DON'T bet, I might give my opponent a free card that beats me, so I KNOW I am going to bet here anyway.
All these factors made the situation condusive to making a blind bet. The additional psychological effect against this particular opponent was a bonus. I wanted to make it seem to him like I was a bit more reckless than I really am. having a tight image is one thing, but if they all know you are a rock, you won't get as much action. The loose players will all call anyway, so your image doesn't matter nearly as much with them.
Oh yea, the result. Doesn't really matter, but...
I won with AK vs. AQ when the next two cards were small and red.
Dave in Cali
I find that most experienced players who bet dark do it in the exact situation you mention.
They have a strong hand that can improve to the nuts and are calling any raise if they don't improve. It is almost never a bluff, except from an extremely wild or terrible player.
The guy in the hand I posted was basically a doofus who was doing it with the nuts on the turn, which everyone knew he had anyway.
In stud, people do it a lot with trips. If they are called, they like to say "I had trips going in..." and squeeze out their river card. If they are raised, they look and call unless they make the boat.
Good observations. I cannot think of any time I ever made a blind bet without a decent hand, and I have never done it on a complete bluff. Often times, players will get suspicious and be more likely to call, but this isn't always true. It depends what they "know" about you. I like to do it once in a while to keep my image from being too one-dimensional, I like everyone to guess at least a little, while still "knowing" that I am a tight aggressive player.
A funny story happened about a month ago. I was not getting many hands, and the game was filled with aggressive players, many of whom were jacking up pots with fairly trashy hands. I flopped the second nut flush in a 7-way capped before the flop pot, and played very aggressively to the river, and won a huge pot (I posted the hand on one of the forums, I had KhJh). anyway, it was the first hand I had played in quite a while.
Another day, I was in a game with almost the exact same lineup, and again I wasn't getting many hands. Someone commented on how tight I was, and someone else called me a rock. That got me pissed... Now you've done it! Rock, my ass... So two hands later, I am on the button with 7c2c. It's not raised, and I don't think the blinds will raise, I will show them who's a rock....
flop comes 7 high rainbow trash with one club. Checked to my right, who bets, I raise. Semi-maniac "Kenny", to my left, cold calls. He has a reliable telegraph, so I don't mind him being on my left. The bettor calls and the rest fold.
Turn is the Qh, making a flush impossible. Checked to me, I bet again. Kenny calls and the flop bettor folds.
River is the 9d. Kenny checks and I check. I proudly show down my piece of total cheese and say "rock, my ass...". Oh yea, I won the pot too, as kenny had a pair of sixes....
So I won with a piece of cheese. Chastize me and cast me out of the club if you wish. I haven't been called a rock again though....
Dave in Cali
A "semi-rock" raised the flop with AQ on a two tone board of K-T-9? And called you to the river?
You may want to rethink your characterization of this particular individual.
In regards to your bet in the dark, I think if you are going to do that in this situation, you are also going to have to do it with trashola sometimes, or you are going to get zero action when you do it.
Is there any way to determine if the rake is too high for the game you are playing?
I would advice you talking to other regulars in your game, and then particularly the ones that seem to be amongst the best.
Ask them how they are doing overall, if they are beating the rake, if that is even possible and what they think of the rake (even if they beat it, it could be high).
I think a 5% rake is more than enough, esp. if the rake rarely gets 'capped' (if they stop raking at $2 in a $6/12 game, but take those $2 once the pot reaches $20, then it will be a 10% rake, but still probably a very favourable rake).
lars
in la, the rake for 6/12 games are $4 per button? is it possible to beat that? for $9/18 it is also $4.
comments thanks bitchass
I've used Turbo Texas Hold'em to find approximate costs for rake. Your ability to play poker compared to your opponents'abilities will determine, to some extent whether you can beat the rake.
Some rakes I would just refuse to pay on priciple.
There are also some considerations in changes of (opening) strategy depending upon how the rake is collected. Mike Caro has covered this in some of his writings.
Overall, I'd just do a quick calculation of how much is leaving the table per hour, and compare that to the types of errors the other players on the table were making, and see if it looked profitable.
Two months ago I was in Vegas, and this waiter overheard me talking about poker, and he said, check out the Excalibur, they're easy over there. I didn't even know Excalibur had poker.
Anyways, they do. And it's got funky rules. Here they are, as I remember them: $2-$6 holdem, meaning I think you can bet any amount at any time from 2 to 6, and when you raise you must raise at least the amount of the bet.
Quirk #1: I played a little and it seemed to be played like a $2-$2 game. One time I had kings or aces in the pocket and I, thinking I should bet as strongly as possible, bet $6...and I get all these looks like, "whoa, big spender here."
Quirk #2: If you get kings or aces "cracked" (you lose the hand having played all the way with aces or kings), you get to spin this wheel and you get the amount in chips of whatever number pops up, and I don't recall the distribution, but it seemed people were averaging about $15 or $20.
So, finally, my point: Both of these quirks seem to dramatically change how a serious player should approach the game. I don't know what to do, and I'm looking for advice.
Thanks, Worm
Excalibur poker is great, IMO. There are some changes you can make though.
First off, you can limp more often in loose-passive games due to the small initial bet and the large implied odds.
Second, you can often actually drive people out of the pot with a bet or raise, which can be nice.
Third, the wheel spin tends to make weak players misplay aces and kings more often than they otherwise would, and you often get shown a hand you didn't expect to see, mostly because they were trying to get a wheel spin. Ironically, depending on the situation, you might have done better with YOUR aces spinning the wheel! Whatever though, I just play them normally anyway, the wheel is a little extra insurance in case you get beat, it makes me even more happy than usual to see AA or KK.
Fourth, the games tend to be much better at night, and tend to be rock-like during the day. Avoid the rock games, they aren't worth your bother.
Fifth, you can steal pots much more often than usual, especially if it gets checked around once, because of the spread limit betting. Betting 6$ into a 10$ pot is much more likely to steal than betting 2$ would be. I have on occasion stolen five or six pots in a row before I finally got caught, in which case I stopped trying to steal for a while and only bet real hands.
Sixth, you can sometimes bet or raise less than the max if it suits your purposes. For instance, once I bet a medium flush draw into six opponents by betting the minimum. Four called. When the turn came, it made my flush. I bet the max and two called. The river was a blank and I bet again and took the pot. For the most part though, you should usually bet the max if you are going to bet. But value betting is somewhat different when you have an option as to how much to bet.
I have played there quite a bit, and overall, I like it. you have to make some adjustments, but the structure favors good players who know how to adjust. I found the game there was easy for me to adjust to, as it fits my style well.
Dave in Cali
I live in Vegas and started playing last December. I usually play 4-8 half kill games at the Station casinos, as well as 4-8 at Binions and Bellagio and 6-12 at the Mirage. Ive noticed 2 things that are particularly true in the "local" games with a 1-2 blind structure (Station casinos and Mandalay Bay, though this applies to the Binions 4-8 game as well...)
1. Hands that would never be considered raising hands based on all the literature I have read are raising hands in these games. People consistently play all sorts of garbage from 5-7o in middle position to 2-6s up front. My current philosophy is to raise with just about ANY reasonable starting hand, just because what I have is likely to be the best of the field. Hands that some people wouldn't even play such as A-10o UTG have become raising hands for me. QJo in middle-late position is also a raise. While sometimes this doesn't work out, the huge amount of Kxs, Qxs and xxs hands I see along with any 1 gap connector hands seem to make this a profitable play in the long run. Any thoughts?
2. Betting for value on the end should be done far more than books indicate. In a tough middle limit game, the negative expectation principle may come into play more often, but time and time again I have seen people call me down with no kicker, middle pair, etc. Sometimes 2-3 people will call you with nothing, and I finally decided to stop giving them a free ride on the river, even if I wasn't dead sure I had them beat. This also has been working for me.
Granted, these are somewhat passive games, and certainly loose. But are these correct adjustments to make in these circumstances? I'd appreciate some feedback.
Thanks
Clark
1. Hands that would never be considered raising hands based on all the literature I have read are raising hands in these games. ... Hands that some people wouldn't even play such as A-10o UTG have become raising hands for me. QJo in middle-late position is also a raise. While sometimes this doesn't work out, the huge amount of Kxs, Qxs and xxs hands I see along with any 1 gap connector hands seem to make this a profitable play in the long run. Any thoughts?
The reason not to raise with any starting hand isn't so much because of dubious strength - it's so that you're not isolated by another player. If you raise in EP with ATo, or QJ in middle position, then obversant players can make it 3 bets with lots of hands. You end up being an underdog when called a large percentage of the time. That makes the rest of the hand difficult and costly to play. If you do the calculation you will find that there's a surprisingly large chance someone behind you has pocket pair better than one of your cards, or a better ace.
However, that being said, in low limit games there are 2 factors that make the above not as applicable:
1) if worse hands still call your raises, then you aren't likely to be an underdog when you're called. Betting your hand for value is profitable.
2) players are not aggressive enough to isolate you. This gives more encouragement for worse hands to call, as well as the straightforward fact that you're not paying the most when behind.
"1. Hands that would never be considered raising hands based on all the literature I have read are raising hands in these games."
True, but the streaks get nasty. All in all, I think it't better to be aggressive and at least make the speculative hands pay to play. AT is a speculative hand in those games, I don't raise early with it. Hell, it can be argued that AK and AQ are speculative hands in these games! I still raise UTG with AK and AQ.
"2. Betting for value on the end should be done far more than books indicate."
Absolutely. Value becomes almost the only reason to bet or raise in these games.
Here is a hand I found interesting, particularly since it touches some things that have been heavily discussed here, M&S's views on keeping pots so small that calling a turn bet/raise would be a mistakes for drawers and other similar stuff. I will first write a quick description of the hand, then some comments/questions.
Homegame, $3-6, pretty tough with decent players.
Seat 5 in SB, seat 6 in BB. I'm in seat 1, UTG.
I'm dealt AsKs and limp. Seat 2 and seat 3 both folds. Button in seat 4, a sane and usually tight/aggressive, though sometimes tricky, raises. SB in seat five, by far the weakest and loosest player around the table, calls, so does BB in seat 6, usually a decent player but prone to playing too many hands and tilting (thus playing even more hands). I'd say BB is on a tilt by now. I limp-reraise, all call.
Flop: A-K-5, two hearts and one diamond (I have no backdoor). I bet straight out, button raises, SB and BB cold-call, I re-raise, button drops(!), SB and BB call.
Turn: 8s. Brilliant, no flush out yet. I bet out, SB calls instantly while I'm joking that if both players are on the flush, then at least it stands quite a small chance of hitting. BB takes a little longer to decide. Then throws in his chips.
River: 2s. No heart. It's checked to me, I bet, SB folds, BB check-raises and I call. He turns over 34o for the wheel and the nuts.
---
I wonder what people think of the limping with AKs UTG. It's just variation plays I run from time to time, and personally I find it just as natural to do this with AKs as the 'usual' (AA).
HOWEVER. At first of course, everybody shook their heads a bit in despair of BB tilt-playing this hand all the way to the river and catching his miracle card (3 outs as SB of course were on the flush draw). But having given it a bit of consideration, he actually had borderline decisions all the way, where calling were actually marginally 'on the right side of the border'. This of course has to do with the way I built the pot (there was really no way back after the limp-reraise). Button claimed to have AQ (and I could actually believe him, he's good enough to make that laydown after getting the info he needed on the flop). It almost a meant to be hand.
The thing is, one less raise pre-flop and on the flop (I put in the third bet on both streets), and BB would've had a fold on the turn, when betted into. The question the however, is how button would react if I just called his flop raise, and came straight out betting when a blank hit the board on the turn. If button had called the turn as well, then that had maybe been enough to justify the turn call anyway despite two less big bets in on another street.
Finally, I think my bet on the river, when I 'closed' the action, was terrible. Had I checked it down, I would've lost two less big bets, and BB would've won two less. After BB's long think-break on the turn, I figured a wheel draw could be in there.
Comments?
lars
I think you played the hand masterfully. I think the BB play was poor throughout, although, as you say, his calls are not amazingly bad given the pot odds. Let's count them up.
His first call on the flop is marginal at best, and is terrible given that you re-raised. This is by far his largest mistake. 34o is just not going to flop enough winners to make putting money in with it worthwhile. Even 2-pair will lose to an overpair a good chunk of the time. He needs to get trips or the straight to feel confident.
After the flop there are 3*4=12 bets in the pot by my count.
On the flop he cold-calls 2 sb, getting 9to 1 immediate odds by my count ((12+6)/2), with the assumption that it won't get re-raised (Which is an amazingly stupid assumption, given the pre-flop action). Is this enough to call a gut-shot on a flush-draw board? No way. I have to guess that someone (SB) has hearts, and that I am drawing to 3 outs that may get re-drawn out on on the river. I would want 15 to 1 to call. This is a horrible call. You re-raise, of course, and now that he is only calling a single bet, he does have odds to call.
After the flop betting, there are 23 sb in the pot.
When the turn rags off, he is getting ((23+4)/2=13.5) 13.5 to 1 on his call. This isn't a bad call, since he'll probably get action on the river if his miracle card hits.
I think your river bet is required, since there are alot of hands that will pay you off, and very few that beat you.
You played fine. He played poorly throughout the hand. He got trapped for alot of bets and got lucky.
Loose Aggressive 10-handed online 2-4 Game, I've just snapped some of the jammers off and they've slowed down a bit.
I'm dealt Ac Ks UTG and of course raise. 1 MP caller, and the BB calls.
Flop comes: 9c Jc 8d
The BB checks to me.. I'm expecting this flop hit someone, but I think I could win if I hit my card on the turn or, if a club comes, I'll have a nut flush draw. So I check.. and the MP checks after me.
Turn comes: 8c
BB again checks to me. I'm strongly considering betting here.. I know I should bet this turn, nobody has shown that they have any of this board, and it's probably a good time to buy it.. but for some reason I whimp out and check it. The MP checks behind me.
River comes: 6c
BB bets out.. Action? results to follow...
I would raise then call if reraised. Let me guess, you lost to 86o?
My guess is he lost to 66.
Chris
I would certainly raise. In the low limit games there are enough players who will bet any club here and even who bluff in this spot. If MP has a club (even a low one) and is a typical Paradise low limit player he will also pay you off.
Checking the turn is a mistake IMO.
Regards, ME
No action up until this point, I have to think I have the best hand. I raise him, he re-raised.. I made the crying call to see his JJ. (jacks full)
The table had been playing pretty aggressive in the hands leading up to this one, so I guess he was figuring I'd bet the flop or turn if I had it or not. That would have been the best play most of the time.
In this case he lost money. If I bet the turn, he raises, I'd have called trying to pull down the club. He may have got 3 bets on the river in that case also. And if the river club hadn't come.. what action is he going to get then?
This is just one of those cases where making the correct play would have cost a lot more than making the weak turn check.
And if he just bets the flop and the turn, I may come along for the ride, again him getting 3 bets on the river.. I think this was his best play.
critique my play. aw hell, just pat me on the back for sucking out.
im obviously nate7out. i didnt alter the history because everyone played the hand decent enough for online and straightforward, nothing too revealing. Ok, so im lazy.
two things... I called 18 cold on the turn...bad?, I actually thought about raising here(when it was $6 to me), just to get more money in, should I? see italicized comments. of course without the nut draw i dont raise.
nate
31-2/3 BB... decent pot.
----------------------------------------------------- Game #76262614 - $3/$6 Hold'em - 2001/05/19-10:10:54 (CST) Table "Paradise Isle" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button Seat 1: DEKE C ($99 in chips) Seat 2: Nate7out ($281 in chips) Seat 3: asparagus ($51 in chips) Seat 4: dungtran ($130 in chips) Seat 5: Budwiser_jr ($197 in chips) Seat 6: Buttmunch ($402 in chips) Seat 8: engaman ($296 in chips) Seat 9: bagboy4471 ($105 in chips) Seat 10: drzoloft ($211 in chips) Buttmunch: Post Small Blind ($1) engaman : Post Big Blind ($3) Dealing... Dealt to Nate7out [ Ac ] Dealt to Nate7out [ Qc ] bagboy4471: Fold drzoloft: Fold DEKE C : Call ($3) Nate7out: Raise ($6) asparagus: Call ($6) dungtran: Call ($6) Budwiser_jr: Call ($6) Buttmunch: Fold engaman : Call ($3) DEKE C : Call ($3) *** FLOP *** : [ 9c 3h 8c ] engaman : Bet ($3) DEKE C : Call ($3) Nate7out: Raise ($6) asparagus: Call ($6) dungtran: Call ($6) Budwiser_jr: Call ($6) engaman : Call ($3) DEKE C : Call ($3) *** TURN *** : [ 9c 3h 8c ] [ 7s ] engaman : Check DEKE C : Bet ($6) i thought about raising here to make the pot big,... dumb? Nate7out: Call ($6) asparagus: Raise ($12) dungtran: Fold Budwiser_jr: Raise ($18) engaman : Fold DEKE C : Raise ($18) Nate7out: Call ($18) OK? asparagus: Call ($12) Budwiser_jr: Call ($6) *** RIVER *** : [ 9c 3h 8c 7s ] [ 5c ] DEKE C : Check Nate7out: Bet ($6) asparagus: Call ($6) Budwiser_jr: Call ($6) DEKE C : Call ($6) *** SUMMARY *** Pot: $190 | Rake: $3 Board: [ 9c 3h 8c 7s 5c ] DEKE C lost $42 (showed hand) [ Td Js ] (a straight, seven to jack) Nate7out bet $42, collected $190, net +$148 (showed hand) [ Ac Qc ] (a flush, ace high) asparagus lost $42 (showed hand) [ Jd Ts ] (a straight, seven to jack) dungtran lost $12 (folded) Budwiser_jr lost $42 (showed hand) [ Jc Tc ] (a flush, jack high) Buttmunch lost $1 (folded) golfingnut didn't bet engaman lost $12 (folded) bagboy4471 didn't bet (folded) drzoloft didn't bet (folded)
what happened ... ive seen histories posted before. oh well, im not gonna fix it. enjoy!
-----------------------------------------------------Game #76262614 - $3/$6 Hold'em - 2001/05/19-10:10:54 (CST)
Table "Paradise Isle" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: DEKE C ($99 in chips)
Seat 2: Nate7out ($281 in chips)
Seat 3: asparagus ($51 in chips)
Seat 4: dungtran ($130 in chips)
Seat 5: Budwiser_jr ($197 in chips)
Seat 6: Buttmunch ($402 in chips)
Seat 8: engaman ($296 in chips)
Seat 9: bagboy4471 ($105 in chips)
Seat 10: drzoloft ($211 in chips)
Buttmunch: Post Small Blind ($1)
engaman : Post Big Blind ($3)
Dealing...
bagboy4471: Fold
drzoloft: Fold
DEKE C : Call ($3)
Nate7out: Raise ($6)
asparagus: Call ($6)
dungtran: Call ($6)
Budwiser_jr: Call ($6)
Buttmunch: Fold
engaman : Call ($3)
DEKE C : Call ($3)
*** FLOP *** : [ 9c 3h 8c ]
engaman : Bet ($3)
DEKE C : Call ($3)
Nate7out: Raise ($6)
asparagus: Call ($6)
dungtran: Call ($6)
Budwiser_jr: Call ($6)
engaman : Call ($3)
DEKE C : Call ($3)
*** TURN *** : [ 9c 3h 8c ] [ 7s ]
engaman : Check
DEKE C : Bet ($6)
Nate7out: Call ($6)
asparagus: Raise ($12)
dungtran: Fold
Budwiser_jr: Raise ($18)
engaman : Fold
DEKE C : Raise ($18)
Nate7out: Call ($18)
asparagus: Call ($12)
Budwiser_jr: Call ($6)
*** RIVER *** : [ 9c 3h 8c 7s ] [ 5c ]
DEKE C : Check
Nate7out: Bet ($6)
asparagus: Call ($6)
Budwiser_jr: Call ($6)
DEKE C : Call ($6)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $190 | Rake: $3
Board: [ 9c 3h 8c 7s 5c ]
DEKE C lost $42 (showed hand) [ Td Js ] (a straight, seven to jack)
Nate7out bet $42, collected $190, net +$148 (showed hand) [ Ac Qc ] (a flush, ace high)
asparagus lost $42 (showed hand) [ Jd Ts ] (a straight, seven to jack)
dungtran lost $12 (folded)
Budwiser_jr lost $42 (showed hand) [ Jc Tc ] (a flush, jack high)
Buttmunch lost $1 (folded)
golfingnut didn't bet
engaman lost $12 (folded)
bagboy4471 didn't bet (folded)
drzoloft didn't bet (folded)
sucks to be holding Jc10c, hit the hut str8 on the turn, pick up the third nut flush on the river.
i need to go back to 10-20 these games look too tough for me no one bluffs?
5-10 and I am in the big blind with AKs. The 4 and 8 player limp in, they are both tight and very good players, I raise, they call and the three of us see the flop. A-8-3 rainbow, I bet, 4 raises, 8 reraises, and I cap it. I plan to bet out on the turn and if i get raised i should have and idea were i stand. Right now I but them both on A with a small kicker. Turn is a 4, making a 4 card rainbow, and i bet out and only get called. River is a J and i check, right or wrong? My thinking was that if either had an A then this could easily be there kick and i felt that i would only get called or raise if i was beat.
They both check and i did not see there hands. I do feel that if any card lower than a ten had hit, then i would have bet out.
The J is a terrible card as you mention. It's a close decision whether I bet or not. If the opponents are the types to go for a steal here with a raise, I'll likely check as I really don't want to call 2 bets here.
That's a lot of heat on the flop from two tight players with no draws out there. I haven't seen the results but when the first raiser calls 2 cold on the flop and calls on the turn I'm worried about my hand.
Thanks for the reply. I figured i was ahead on the turn when i did not get reraised but i realy thought that the J could do nothing but hurt me on the river, with two solid players in. Thanks again.
ok, so i have been playing a lot of low-limit hold'em at the bicycle lately. im talking 1-2 and maybe moving as high as 3-6. lots of action at these tables and plenty of chumps who will fold to your bluffs too. basically a good mix of players in all ranges of tightness, but with pretty easy reads. i also have very little money right now, due to a loss of job, paying rent, and buying a cheapo car so i can get around L.A. well, one night i win $150 bucks, playing pretty well. next night i am breaking even from but still the force to be reckoned with at my table, everyone gives that little feaerful glance in my direction before acting. i end up being down 20 bucks, and 1-2 and 2-4 tables break up completely for the night. so i figure ill go to 1-2 stud and win it back. whoa, was i wrong!! my stud game is suffering tremendously with all this low-limit hold-em going on. i drop 60 bucks here and call it a night. couple days later i turn 20 bucks into 500 in just about 6 hours. not getting lucky, just playing a good game, making strong moves when the need arises, and calling with nuts when i want the chumps behind me in. well, i was on the way to doing the same thing 2 nights later, up about 160 at the time, and i moved to a 2-4 table, and started breaking even, getting my feel for the table. i dropped a few bucks on hands that didn't quite get there, but was still playing tight, and aggressive. well, i get QTs in late position, call with 6-7 people taking the flop. (pretty loose table for the most part.) flop comes A K 7 rainbow. i am getting odds at this point to draw to the inside straight, so i call and 2 others see the turn come up a J !! i have the nut hand at this point. i am in the middle of the 2 other opponents, and i am checked to, i bet button raises, other guy folds, i reraise since it is just the 2 of us, and he caps it! i am thinking maybe we have the same hand, but if not, im looking at 2 pair. sure enough the river is J again he checks to me. im playing with my emotions now, and i don't think for a second that one of his 2 pair was jacks, at least not until he check-raised me. i call and sure enough he shows down AJo. i am a bit perturbed to say the least about getting my nut straight drawn out on with 1 card to go on the river. he was getting the odds for sure to draw to it, but to be raising and capping before it hits, with a very possible straight on board? so ok, i get up and go to the bathroom, splash some water on my face, cool down, and repeat a couple of times to myself, 'come on play tight, play smart. nobody can beat you but you.' i let of my steam and save myself from tilting and return to the table and my first hand back is AA. i play it aggressively, and it takes the pot. i am quite happy. my next hand is AKs!! i flop a king rainbow and bet it all the way to the river and take that one too. now i am a bit ahead of where i started. i hover at this point investing a few chips heree and there and not hitting any flops, and i look down to see AA again! i raise preflop with it, and get 2 callers. flop comes 7 10 3 rainbow. i bet, get one caller, and third guy drops. a deuce comes on the turn, and i bet and this lady says to me 'i don't care what you have, im going to call you all the way' the river comes up 7 and, you guessed it, i bet, she CALLS!! and shows down 7deuce offsuit!! everyone KNOWS you don't play that hand. i mean if you are any sort of player at all, you may be a little loose on your starting hands, but you KNOW that you throw away 7-2, especially not calling a raise with it! come on!! so i lose that potget a little pissed, and cool off again. i take another couple of unfortunate turns, and i am down to my last 30 bucks. i look down to see AA again!! well, glory be, they gotta hold up this time, no? im not going to do the details again, but 2 running 7's on the turn and river get me beat by the same lady with the same 7-2 again. i am tapped, and leave quite pissed. what do you do in that situation? how do you go about beating that game? stop pushing your edges early and wait for the nuts with no cards to come to raise? this really hurt, and since i have no job (i have an interview on monday) i can't afford to play for a while. how do you all handle these situations? short term and long term...
In the first part you love the action and the 'chumps' and in the second part you bemoan your bad luck when the 'chumps' have the audacity to draw out on you. Bad beats happen and the looser the game the more bad beats are going to show.
Play tight and if the beats start getting to you get up and walk away. (How do you think the guy with AJ felt when you hit your 3 outer to go ahead?)
On your next posts try using paragraphs. It makes reading a little easier.
You need a bankroll to play poker. This is not a recommendation, it is a FACT.
So the bigger the better. For $3-6 you need around $1800 and for $1-2 you probably need $600. You can go smaller but you increase the chance of going broke, no matter how well you play.
Also I don't know what a good hourly rate is for $1-2 but I imagine with the rake and all it is not high. Don't expect to pay for rent with $1-2.
The simple fact is that you took a little bit of money to "Gambole" and you lost. That's how how gambling works. You lost, deal with it.
Also keep on improving your play. 2+2 is great for that. To be honest you sound a little too overconfident. That can be BAD. Remember a lot of your opponents aren't plain stupid, they just haven't bothered to obtain the knowledge that we have. But, even though some of them play 7-2 offsuit, they have learned a few tricks of their own and can be tricky. Be humble.
Also remember the outcome of a night can be determined by the flip of a single card. Isn't that silly? Remember that it IS long term and don't base your play on short term results.
Just my thoughts, good luck Mr. Baggins...
Jim Roy
Mr. Baggins
Mr. Baggins I would strongly suggest that the greatest error in your scenerio was that you did not bring a Bankroll to the game. The essence of Poker (especaially in a low limit hold em game) is that there will be fluctuations and bad beats. You must bring adequate $ to survive any bad beats that come. Futhermore some of the hands that you described especially AA while they are very strong in their own right they do not play as well as other hands vs. several opponents. Must work to get this hand isolated vs. one or two oponents and then it is a monster. Try to build that bankroll befor you walk in the door that way you wont be devastated by losing everything. The secret is to not bring "everything", and have backup $s.
I couldn't read your whole post, but I did see these elements:
"i also have very little money right now, due to a loss of job, paying rent, and buying a cheapo car so i can get around L.A"
"i also have very little money right now, due to a loss of job, paying rent, and buying a cheapo car so i can get around L.A"
My advice would be to completely stop playing poker until you can afford it. Get your career and financial concern in order, then worry about your poker game.
Good luck.
My guess is that you are more likely to be one of the 95% of low limit players who are losers than one of the 5% who are winners.
If you are short on cash don't play poker until you become a winning player.
If you do decide to play anyway, start playing tighter. Sure, you will make money in the long run if you play QTs in late position after many limpers (with no raise). But the edge you get is not that great. If you want to minimize your fluctuations then don't play this hand.
You should be able to make enough money in these easy games just playing premium starting hands.
Sounds to me like you are playing far too loose. Sure you got AA snapped off a couple of times. But what about the chips you won those other hands? Surely you won far more in those 2 hands than what you lose with those AA hands.
I think you probably leaked off a lot of chips playing some very marginal hands.
I WAS TOLD TO HAVE A BANKROLL OF 500 BBs MINUMUM FOR YOUR LIMIT. I BELIEVE THIS TO BE TRUE. IMO ROOFER.
> don't play poker until you become a winning player.
Now, how is this possible?
"Fat, drunk and stupid is no way to go through life" to quote a great movie.
But really, if you can't afford to lose, you can't afford to play.
I'm trying to log on to rec.gambling.poker. Did their website address change or something because i can't seem to log on to it. Any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanx-B.S.
It's not a website per se, as I understand it. You need to get to that newsgroup through a newsreader (try google.com, then chase it down)
Are the pickings as easy as I've read in the Flamingo, Las Vegas?
10-handed online 5/10 game. The game is pretty loose/aggressive.
I hold AdKc in MP. Next to UTG (NTU) limps, as does the two players before me, I raise, cut-off and button cold call, blinds fold, rest calls.
12 SB in the pot, 6 players.
Flop: 5h Js Qd
It is checked to me. I figure someone must have hit this flop. I doubt however that the players who checked to me will check-raise me if I bet, even if they have a queen, because they're on the passive side, and I've only shown quality hands so far. If they have a truly good hand I suspect a check-raise on the turn. The cut-off and button are two (very) loose players, but very aggressive also. So I figure that if the flop have hit them (even a jack) I will probably get raised if I bet. They are not calling stations however, and if they missed the flop there is a good chance they will release (it could very well have missed them since they are very loose preflop).
So I decide to bet (?) with my gutshot and two overcards, hoping to buy the button, and maybe a free turn card, if a blank would fall.
Cut-off folds, button raises however. All fold to me, and I call (would someone consider raising here? I dont like re-raising, because I dont have a strong hand, and from his perspective, I could very well want to wait till the turn, so I dont give away my hand IMO).
8 BB in the pot.
Turn: Ac
What's your action here? I decided to bet into him. I would be glad if I could take the pot right there, and IMO I dont really have to fear a raise, since I could very well still hold JJ, QQ, AQ, AA, if he has two pair. And I dont give him a free card, if that was the reason why he raised me on the flop.
He calls.
River: 3c
I'm still worrying that he holds something like QJ, AQ, or AJ. I check, because I hope that he will bluff if I have a better hand, and dont want to get raised. He bets, and I call.
Comments?
Thanks, results later.
You played it well. If you get raised on the turn you still have a redraw to the str8, and if he flopped 2 pair you can still catch up, and you gave no free cards.
He had QJo.
After having thought this over, I dont think I played it fine.
Because with what hand could he raise me? Given the player: QJ, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ, QT, maybe KT, but with that hand he will probably just have called. A set is also possible, though a bit unlikely.
So when the turn is an ace, I still lose to QJ, AQ, AJ and KJ, and win if he holds KJ QT KQ. With 8 BB in the pot, he will call a bet with these hands if i bet, so I wont get his gutshots out. If he holds KJ and KQ a free card doesnt hurt me to much, since I hold AK. I think I should have check-called the turn, because a free card doesnt hurt me too much (it could actually help me), and I dont have the risk of being raised if he holds a set, or two pair.
Your bet on the flop is the right thing to do. There are 12 SB in the pot, you are getting 12:1 on a bet, and you have the following outs:
1. T (4 outs)
2. A (3 outs)
3. K (3 outs)
With 10 outs you have a reasonable chance of winning this hand. I like the bet to try and buy the button, so that you may take a free card on 4th street if need be. Also, if you get people to drop your overcards have a better chance of being good when you hit, so the button raising helps you although you did not end up with position.
On the turn when I hit, I would bet into the raiser. He just calls, so I am not sure where he is at.
On the river a seemingly complete blank hit. I would be tempted to bet here. A check here may induce a bluff however.
Derrick
... that you get AA in the small blind and the action is capped before it gets to you!
This game was nothing short of spectacular. It had been really loose passive up to about 45 minutes before this hand. Then "Santa Claus" sits down. He's got $300 in front of him, is going through double rum and cokes every 20 minutes, and is doing his damndest to give his money away.
He limps in with every hand, unless it's a pair, which he will raise. He calls on the river with 8 high. He checkraises the turn with nothing. He has no fear ... and a lot of money that I'd like to get into my stack.
Unfortunately, he is also two slots to my left. And trust me, the players to Santa's left know that Christmas just came early, and that they're sitting on a gold mine. They refuse to trade seats with me. To top it all off, the deck is giving me the cold shoulder.
But back to this hand.
PREFLOP
As I mentioned above, I have AA in the small blind. ALL RIGHT! Time to milk the cash cow... So, Santa limps, Next limps, next raises, next 3-bets, the cutoff caps, and the button cold-calls. Huh?!? I re-check my cards. Yup, AA. With a bewildered look on my face, I call 11 cold. BB folds, but everybody else calls.
Now, I've got a pretty tight image, and this is the first hand I've played in two hours. You'd think that somebody might notice my rather large cold-call and maybe guess at which of the "big 3" I'm holding ... but nope, nobody notices.
So, 7 players, 29 sb in the pot.
FLOP: T 5 3 rainbow.
I check, hoping to get a bet/raise from the cutoff, so I can come over the top, and hopefully clear the field. (Except for Santa, of course, he's welcome to call.)
However, Santa bets, and the next player (NP) raises. The next two drop, and the cutoff just calls. Button drops, I 3-bet, Santa calls, and now NP caps. We all call.
From playing with NP (Mr. "$12 Bingo", for those who might know ...) before, I know that I've run into at least two pair, but given his position and playing style, I think a set is more likely. Lucky me.
4 players, 45 sb = 22.5 bb in the pot.
TURN: offsuit 2
To my horror, Santa decides that he's going to bet into the guy who capped the pot on the flop. I'm sure my immediate neighbours at the table heard me cursing under my breath. NP can't believe his good fortune, flashing me an enormous grin as he raises. Cutoff thinks for a long while and cold-calls.
So now it's to me. I figure I have 6 outs to hit ... four 4s and the two remaining aces. So I need 6.7 to 1 to call. I'm currently getting 13.75 to 1 on a call, but I'm in danger of a re-raise and a cap behind me, which will saw these down to 8.6 to 1. I figure I have a call, grit my teeth, and throw the money in.
Santa just calls, and so to the river we go ...
4 players in, 30.5 bb in the pot.
RIVER: blank
Well, I'm pot stuck at this point. I check, and once again, Santa decides he's gotta bet. Fortunately, NP now is forced to go all-in for only $3. Cutoff calls in a hurry, and I call as well.
So, before I reveal the final outcome ... what do you think of how I played it, and what do you think everybody had?
Dave
As expected, NP showed me 55 to win the main pot.
Cutoff showed KK, and Santa held the monstrous holding of T9o. My AA won a $9 side pot.
Sigh.
Dave,
I'd probably let this one go on the turn. I wasn't sure from your post exactly what NP did before the flop, and that's important. If he put in a raise, there's a decent chance he has overpair to the board that you beat. If he just coldcalled before the flop, it's more likely he now has a set. Another consideration is would he coldcall 2 or 3 bets preflop (rather than re-raise) w/JJ or QQ? Unless he's a really loose and poor player, I think it's unlikely he flopped or turned 2 pair given the board. All things considered I think his turn 2 bet is a pretty sure sign he's got you beat. However, the pot is huge, so I don't think your turn coldcall is terrible even if it's just for the 2-outer plus the small chance he has JJ, QQ, or KK.
Caddy
It happens Dave. But the Santa Claus line is TOO FUNNY!
The only player who you had on a hand to beat you was the all in player. Why not raise the river and try and recoup some of the lost $$ from the main pot from Santa and cutoff?
Well Mr. Ottosen,
I wondered when somebody would make that point. I called and then went "S--T!" as I realized the error. I probably could have got another 2 bets from Santa ... I think Santa reraises, Mish folds, and I call.
Oh well,
Dave
Besides, someone else may have had you beat anyway. I don't think it was worth the risk, even after having seen the results...
First off, I loved your post. The game reminds me of the time I folded every single hand for four orbits, then came out raising UTG, and got SEVEN callers. Gotta love it.
I love the part where you re-check your hole cards BTF. I probably would have too... what the heh...?!? At least by cold-calling you "disguised your hand". Whatever THAT'S worth....
The flop you played fine. Even if you had bet out, hoping to reraise, with the excessive action here, you would have done fine too. When it gets capped by NP you need to worry about a set of tens (assuming he is the initial pre-flop raiser?), otherwise a set of tens, fives, or threes. Two pair seems unlikely, but I don't know how he plays.
When the turn comes, you have six apparent outs. The pot is collosal. However, with the action, I wouldn't hesitate to put Santa on a possible straight, even though he may have nothing. If you are against a set already, you are drawing pretty thin, and if anyone else has a six that is still in the pot, you are not going to win if a straight comes for you. Even if you DO make the straight, you may wind up spitting the pot with someone holding something like AT. All this, plus the possibility of it getting reraised and capped, would make folding look more appealing. I don't think your estimates on your odds are quite as good as you thought, because you didn't factor in the chances of splitting or drawing dead. HOWEVER, the pot is SOOOOOOO collosal that I might just call to the river no matter what anyway....
Obviously call the river. My guess is that you were at least second or third, losing to a straight or a set, or both.
Great post! I can't wait to read the results and other posts.
which player was your nemesis, er.. Dave Ottosen.... Was he Santa? ;-)
Dave in Cali
... arrived a couple of hours later, called me a "lucky fish," then ran away to the other 3-6 game and never came near me all night. (Then again, I didn't shower before going to the casino, so maybe that had something to do with it...)
The way that night went ... I needed all the loose action I could get ...
Dave
I played many many hours this weekend and can't remember what night that was but I was not running well this weekend so I was probably at my own table fuming, looking at QJo and thinking "it couldn't lose AGAIN could it.." Plus we had some rules disputes that I thought were ruled incorrectly, and we had a very inexperienced player who was taking 10-20 seconds on every action and the combination of all the factors had me steaming. However, Lena did brush my hand a few times when pushing me a pot, so its all worth it.
I hardly qualify as Dave's nemesis since I don't think even one of his chips has ever graced my stack.
Before I give my two cents, let me say this. I have been in a lot of crazy games and having AA in these crazy games is brutal. I would much rather be drawing with connectors and suited cards than have a big pair. I have played serious hold'em for about 5 years now and in 5 years I have only seen AA or KK take down a big pot with mult-way action (8 or more callers)TWICE without ever making a set or a straight to win. Apart from that, THEY almost always lose. Even when you do flop a set you are doomed to straight and flush draws if you don't hit a fullhouse. Big pots = Lots of chasers. Bottom pair will chase, top pair will stick in, any gutshot will call, runner runner flush will chase. The pot is just laying tremendous odds for them.
Now, for your hand.
I think you played it fine. However, you have to start worrying a little when NP caps the flop. On the turn, when he raises you have to start putting him on a set. I would guess that NP must be aware that there is at least one big overpair out there given all the cold-callers. If he has top pair, he would be scared given all the flop action. However, he shows no fear on the turn and that is where I would stop to think for a minute.
Now the pot is huge. But, could you be drawing dead. Given your situation, there are only 3 other players so hitting an Ace might be good. A four might be great as well. But what the hell does Santa have? He could have anything. If he has a 6, you are drawing two outs. If Santa has a 4, you are drawing 3 outs since an Ace gives him the straight. His hand worries me. He could bet the turn with an open-ender right? I am not worried about NP's hand containing a 4 or 6 since he kept raising. And if cut-off caps BTF, I would put him on AA or KK or QQ and not small cards. So it all boils down to Santa.
Now as painful as it sounds, I would lay my hand on the turn. You are beat and drawing slim with 3 other players. In this kind of game, someone might even have the nut straight with 6-4...though unlikely.
Anyways, for those of you who like these kinds of stories, I got one of my own. I was on the button with 6h4h in a 10-20 game. UTG ( A real loose chaser) opens with a raise. To my surprise everyone calls. I figure their must be a lot of pairs and big cards out there so I decide to call hoping for small cards to flop. I also call because UTG made runner-runner crap two pair on my KK earlier on and I figure this was good time for me to get revenge. (Yes I know, keep my ego out. But this was the one exception and I had enough of a reason to call given the action alone.)
Back to my story. The SB folds and BB calls. 9 way action BTF. Flop comes Ah-Kh-4c. Wow, not bad..bottom pair and flush draw. Too make a long story short it's capped on the flop. I decide to cap it because it is already 3-bet before it gets back to me. There are about 6 players to see the turn.
Turn comes a 2h. Everyone checks to me???? I decide to bet. UTG decides to check-raise and there are two other cold callers. I decide to 3-bet and UTG caps. Damn..was I drawing dead?
River comes an offsuit 5. UTG bets, everyone folds to me and I make a cry call hoping he doesn't have a bigger flush. He had AA and I take the monster pot with my 6h4h crap flush.
Naturally the whole table goes on yambling about the hand and bad beat. All I said was, "hey, it was SUUITTEEEDD!!"
Surprisingly, the largets pots that I have ever won are with connectors (suited or otherwise). I once took down a $1000 pot in 10-20 with 7-8 offsuit. Gotta love this game!!!
Lawrence Ng
I will take the time to thoroughly read your post later, I am pressed for time now. Let me just say this, regarding the title of your post:
I once took down a gigantic pot with AA, which stood up by themselves as "one pair", in a ten-way capped before the flop, eight way capped on the flop, four players left on the river pot.... While suited connectors etc. are great in multiway pots, I will still take them aces anytime, in any game, in any situation....
Dave in Cali
Hi all,
Something I have observed lately in 6/12 and 4/8 from quite a few players is how hard they will push their draws.
It seems that I am seeing more goofballs who will go to the felt with any flush draw or any open-ended straight. One or two others will do the same with overcards.
I don't mean that they put in a raise or a reraise with a draw, I mean they will happily cap it or go to the felt. It doesn't seem to matter to them whether it is headsup or multi-way after the flop.
One guy I was playing with last week put in 5 bets on the flop with a gutshot. His 3rd raise had convinced me he had a hand and we checked it down to the river where my 3rd pair (two overcards hit the turn and river) held up. Someone asked him why he put 5 bets in on the flop and he replied "To get free cards."
Kind of spendy 'free' cards!
Obviously this makes for a great game! It blows when they hit against you (or when they started with a quality hand), but it's great when they miss.
I have been re-raising and betting into these maniacs on the flop and turn quite a bit when I have them on a draw in an effort to drive out good hands behind them. When their draws come in on the river, the pot is usually so huge that if I think they are bluffing 1 out 20 times (which they are), I make money on the call.
Results have been fairly good. Even check-calling the ones who show a propensity for playing good cards and betting their strong hands has worked out well.
I had a couple questions:
Their strategy seems rather doomed. Sure, they amass huge piles of checks when they hit, but can they really expect to hang onto them?
Second, I was wondering how others play against this type of player and do you have any suggestions or critiques of my strategy?
They will lose their money playing that way. You should jam draws when you know it will remain multiway, and you are getting value from your raises (and sucking equity from the player with the best hand). I like to occasionally limp-reraise with a flush draw, but only when the guy to my left is the raiser, and everyone else has called when it gets back to me. More often, I might check-raise for value, but in each case the situation needs to be nearly perfect before I will do it. I raise on the button more often, because of the possibility of getting a free card.
When playing against these players, I tend to call them down more often, especially if they keep jamming it after the flop. You can't give them credit for a good hand as often as they would seem to have one by the way they bet. I also bet into them on the turn more often, to keep from giving out free cards.
Dave in Cali
New poker club opening May 27th in downtown Colorado Springs spreading 3/6, 5/10 Texas hold'em, Omaha Hi/Low, and 7 card stud. For info call or write Mike or Casey at 719-226-0471 or email at koldsteel2376@aol.com
by posting an ad like this you start right off by showing you have no ethics. i wonder if that follows you into your business practices. i would tend not to patronize your place as i would never feel comfortable gambling my money there.
How can they spread 3/6 and 5/10 when there is a 5 dollar betting maximum in Colorado? The only way to do this would be if it is an illegal club. I agree with Ray, you have very questionable ethics.
The purpose of this forum is to discuss poker strategy, not to provide free advertisement space. Your post does not contain any poker strategy content at all, it is just a plug for this club. I feel that if this post were censored that it would be not only reasonable, but rightful as well. This post does not fall within the guidelines which have been set for use of this forum, therefore it should not have any protection from being deleted. So far, all the responses have been harsh, and I suspect they will remain that way. Hopefully, the post and the entire thread will simply be deleted, thus allowing more forum space for posts related to poker strategy, which is what the forum is meant to be used for.
Dave in Cali
I was playing recently at a casino in Albuquerque (3-6) that has one of those Mandalay Bay type jackpots. Each qualifying high hand will win the respective jackpot i.e. if you hit a Q high straight flush you will win however much money is in the Q st. flush pot. Anyway, I was dealt 5h7h in middle position and folded without a thought. Several people saw the flop and noone raised. The flop came 6hKc8h and of course the turn was the 4h. Now the Jackpot for this hand would have been about $400, oh well. But, what I was wondering is how much should you let these jackpots influence the type of hands you play. For instance the spade royal flush was at $1800 so should you play any spade 10 or better? Any coments are appreciated.
Do not let a jackpot influence the way you play at all. that would be a huge mistake.
Jackpots suck! I recently figured I have contributed over $1000 to jackpots since I started playing poker.
I think jackpots suck too much money out of poker.
The jackpot would not affect my decision to play 5h7h here, but the game conditions would.
In a very loose passive 3/6 game, I would see the flop with 5h7h in mid position if I am pretty certain there will be no raise. If the players behind me have been showing any aggression preflop, which is often the case, I get rid of it.
I will play more small pocket pairs from early position for one bet in a passive 4/8, 3/6 or 2/4 jackpot game. Flop a set or fold.
I don't think it should influence your preflop decisions. But there might be some situations postflop that might change a fold to a call.
Say for instance that you hold a lone 7h with 345h. This is a draw you normally would toss (I hope ;-) ) but if it's just one small bet to you, you should probably peel one of, getting 127:1 for your 47:1 call.
Theese situations might arise now and then if you can hit the jackpot with only one card, but if you need both... I suspect that the situation will not be frequent.
Sincerly, Andreas
I noticed something at the Taj last week that irritated me slightly, and I wanted to know what other players thought of it. One Asian player was extremely proficient at "cutting off chips" and he bought it for all whites at 3-6. When he raised, he said nothing, he just would cut off one or more extra stacks...it seemed he had such control he could stop at a split seconds notice if a player looked about to reraise. Does this "cutting" off violate the "must get it out in one motion rule"? It seemed sneaky, but I said nothing. Should I have said something?
Jeff
Jeff,
I assume you mean that he would make 2 side-by-side stacks of 3 white chips for a raise. If that is what you mean, it is completely standard. I do it all the time at 10-20. The rule is that you cannot return to your stack to get more chips, not that you must bet your chips in one stack.
As i read it, the gentlemen was cutting off one stack with extra chips for a raise on top, but could pull the raise back (i.e. never "make" the raise) if it seems as if a reraise was coming that he didn't want...
Is that a correct interpretation, Jeff?
It is a little tricky to explain, but he would have a huge stack of chips in his hand and when he raised he would cut off say, 3 piles of whites to make it $9..he never announced what he was doing, and while he raised w/o going back to his stack, he could easily stop raising if he didn't like what seemed to be coming behind him.
Jeff
There is a practice that I have seen often that may be deliberate.
Say its 3-6 and the bet is 6. The next player moves forward with a stack of chips, say at least 15, and makes a stack of 3, moves to the side or rear, makes another stack of 3, (thus a call) and moves again placing the stack on the table as if to make another stack, but then slides it back. Sometimes I get get the feeling the bettor is observing reaction and deciding if to leave a raise or not.
IMO, if chips are placed on the table sufficient for a call or raise, they can't be pulled back, particularly in the above when the third stack is placed in a manner consistent with the first two stacks.
If he is not actually putting the chips on the felt, he is doing nothing wrong. I usually hold enough chips in my hand to raise long before the action gets to me, even if I plan on folding.
I recently started playing at a card room where the BB is collected on the button. most of the people there are loose aggressive with a couple of good, predictable players. i wanted to know how low i could make my starting hand requirements with a raise and what hands would be good to raise with being on the button. i know that this might involve a lot of hands, but i feel that i have been raised out of some pots with marginal hands. hands like AXs, KXs, unsuited conectors like (4 6o)-(9 10o), and unsuited weak aces(A8o-A10o) and unsuited weak kings(K9o-K10o). and finally, if i know that someone is intentionally raising my BB(knowing that i'll fold crummy hands), then what should my strategy be? i guess what i'm asking is what, if any, kind of trash hands can i call a raise with knowing that a person wants me out of the hand. i greatly appreciate all responses! thanks.
If people are clearly going more aggressively after your raises, with particularly many cut-off and button raises, here is how I would address the problem:
Call with any Ace if button raises and strong kings. Don't worry calling with the 'classic' trouble hands, AT, A9, KJ, KT, QT and the likes. Rather worry with these hands in BB if there is an early raise.
Some hands I will call raises from any position with as long as it down to the raisor and me are hands like 89o, any suited connectors, all pairs possibly excluding 22, 33, 44, AJs and better for A high (I'm talking raises from any position against any player here) and KQ for K high.
lars
10handed online 2-4 game with the usual mixture of clowns and decent players.
I'm one off the button and pick up As Qs. 2 early/mid limpers and decent late player raises.
Action now? Cold call/Three bet/fold?
I coldcall, flop rags and dump.
If there were no limpers I would probably 3bet trying to snap a steal. If there were more limpers I would probably coldcall and try to build a nice big multiway pot.
Comments please.
Sincerly, Andreas
I would be inclined to 3 bet here. The limpers actually make your hand look better because it is suited.
Since you cold called I will assume there are 10 SB in the pot before the flop. In this case you are getting odds (6 outs) to draw to hitting your overcards. However, you said a decent player raised. It is quite likely he also has an A or an over pair to the board. I would still take one off on the flop.
Derrick
Aah, I should have clarified. The flop came Kxx, with the xx being suited (not in my suit).
Sincerly, Andreas
I would just cold-call and not reraise with ace-queen suited preflop in this situation. A decent player who raises after two other players limp in rates to have AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,AK, or AQ. It is too easy for you to be dominated so you are really drawing now and you should have no desire to chase out the other two players when you are drawing. I would call and be happy to take the flop multi-handed having an excellent drawing hand as well as position.
How would your advice differ if he held AQo? does this turn the call into a muck? I would guess that it may but to be honest I've never mucked AQ to a single raise...and maybe I should.
Sam
In his excellent book "Inside The Poker Mind" John Feeney wrote a short little essay on the perils of cold-calling a legitimate preflop raise with ace-queen offsuit. His advice is to fold against a solid player. My policy is to call a raise with this hand if the player is "typical" or average and to fold it against players with decent raising standards.
Note that when I say a "legitimate raise" I am referring to a situation where a player open-raises from early position or raises from middle position or even late position after other players have voluntarily entered the pot. This is to distinguish it from a steal-raise or when a player may be raising light (e.g.-open raising from middle position).
I would either fold if I thought i was beaten or threebet if there was a good chance my hand was better than the raisers. I would then be inclined to take a free card on the flop if I didn't make a pair or draw.
Chris
Playing last night in a loose 6/12 HE game at Canterbury Park. The game has been very loose and aggressive preflop, but slows down on later streets. No one has been slowplaying big pocket pairs. A lot of limp-reraising has been going on.
I am in the SB in Seat 7. Seat 1 (A calling station who goes to the river with EVERY single hand) calls.
Seat 3 (A loose aggressive player) Raises. Seat 5 (fairly loose and passive) calls. The button (who has been raising with hands like K9 and A2 but slowing down later) 3-bets.
I look down in the SB and see QcQh. I call. BB mucks. Seat 1 4-bets and Seat 3 caps it. We all call and 5 of us see the flop of:
4d7d9c.
I figure there is a pretty good chance I have the best hand and there are diamond draws behind me. I also realize I could be beat. I decide to checkraise for two reasons. 1. To get more money in the pot if I am ahead and 2. To put heat on the draws.
I check. Seat 3 bets, Seat 5 calls, the button raises. I now figure the button has AdKd, AA or KK. I 3-bet to find out. Seat 1 cold calls 3. Seat 3 calls, Seat 5 calls. Button reraises. We all call.
Shit, I checkraised and nobody cared!
Turn is the Js. I still have an overpair, but the button scared me with his 4-bet on the flop.
Now I am thinking that I am likely beat, but with 46 small bets in the pot, I'm not going anywhere. I think the button has KK or AA. Am I on a single out - the Q of spades? Even though the game is loose, I don't think anyone has KT so I am not quite drawing dead.
However, some of these players are rotten and my hand *might* be good, but I don't bet it. (Can I bet the turn?)
We all check to the button. If he wants a free card, he's got it. He doesn't. He bets. I consider raising but figure I would just be building the pot for the inevitable AA or KK so I just call. Everyone calls. Good, no one made a straight yet.
River is the 9s. Good and bad. Good because no straights or flushes came in. Bad because I think either Seat 1 or Seat 5 could have a freakin' 9. Am I in third place?
Everyone checks to the button. He checks. I ask him "You got cowboys, shooter?" He starts bitching and turns over AdKd. I was incredulous, I thought he was bitching because he thought his AA was cracked. Seat 1 turns over 88 (I do a double-take because a couple of us thought he had 89), Seat 3 rolls TT. Seat 5 mucks.
Unbelieveable. My QQ is good and I take down a 26BB pot.
Would anyone have bet the turn or river here from the SB? I know it looks like I was seeing snipers behind every tree, but 5 handed to the river in a loose game, you see some pretty wild stuff.
I think you played correctly. Someone having AA or KK is a distinct possibility and it makes sense to back off on the expensive streets with this many opponents. On the flop, in a jammed pot like this with lots of players it really does not matter whether you lead out or go for a check-raise since the flop will probably get bet by someone allowing you to raise. I would have bet out but it is not a major poker decision one way or the other.
It's true that in a monstrous pot like this it's not crucial that you either fly-bet or check-raise, but in smaller pots-- say, 5 BB's or less before the flop action-- it's vital that you check-raise if you suspect the late position pre-flop raiser will bet. This is because most players won't three bet the flop unless they have your hand beat (unless, of course, you flopped a monster, but I'm talking about middling overpairs and top-pair type hands here), which could allow you to get away from your hand before the river.
Also, if someone calls two cold on a two-tone flop, then gets jittery once the third flush card hits, you can muck with confidence. This often isn't true if someone calls your original bet, then calls the pre-flop raiser's bet. Or, to put it another way, if someone calls two-cold on the flop they've usually gone quite a ways toward defining their hand, which generally isn't the case if they're calling one bet and then another.
I don't think you could have played this hand any other way. I guess a case could be made for laying your Queens downs pre-flop, but it's not going to come from me. I would have played it exactly as you did.
Nice score!
Online 3-6. Directly to the right of me is this person that raises nearly every single time. Now, he almost never shows down, which means that he's either getting extremely great hands that never improve every single time or he's just a weak player trying to intimidate everyone. After enough of his raises hand after hand after hand, I decide it's the latter. Finally I've had enough. He almost has as well, he's down to his last $9. I'm determined to make that my nine dollars.
He raises first in, typical. I have jack-seven offsuit. No guts, no glory, I say. I three bet. Table all folds back to this guy who calls all-in with his last 3 dollars.
Cards come down on the table. I end up with a pair of jacks. He has a jack high hand with 6-5o as his two hole cards. I didn't even need improvement to beat him.
Now, of course I didn't invent this move. Heck, I stole it right out of HEFAP. I know J-7 wasn't the best hand to do it with, but if I didn't act right then, those last nine dollars would have gone into another pocket. Part of me is just proud to have seen the opportunity to get this move in and wanted to share how I just made the easiest nine bucks of my life. Part of me wanted to reaffirm to all the struggling players out there (myself very much included) that there are so many places to earn money if we just think the situations through a bit. So I guess it's gloating, in a way, but also a thank you to S&M for putting the idea in my head to begin with.
That's it. No real question here.
While you should three bet a player like this much more than you would normally make this play, J7o is not the hand to do it with. This is especially true if you put him all-in.
I would have loved to have isolated him earlier, the problem was that my hands were quite terrible at best. I certainly wasn't about to come in for two or three bets on them and get creamed with them, no matter how passive he appeared to be after the flop. The interesting thing was that I could see at least two or three others at the table had caught on to his raise with nothing technique and called his two bets cold, but no one had yet tried to isolate him. Yes, again, I realize J-7 (offsuit or no) is a fairly mediocre hand. The situation at this point was "now or never." If I didn't 3 bet him here, he would have gone all in against someone else and left the table just the same.
So I guess now I do have a question. Since J-7 wasn't that great of a hand, should I have let this final opportunity pass me by or gone in on the reasonable assumption that I still had a better hand?
Speaking of which, Cluck, I agree completely with falacy #2. Just not with #1. True, he could very well have a good hand this time. But when a player is raising with 90% of his hands, the odds are much more favorable that any one of his random raising hands is not truly a good hand.
J7 is pure crapola, not mediocre.
The biggest mistake you made here was gunning for a specific player. Although you should play differently against a maniac, you should not be specifically gunning to get HIS money. You should be playing your hands so as to maximize your chance of winning the pot, or to maximize the size of the pot that you win. If the maniac has money in the pots you win, that's great. You specifically gunned for the maniac's last nine bucks, with a hand that is trash, a hand that does not play well against anyone or anything, especially for three bets. Even if you knew what he had, you would still want to charge him to continue drawing after the flop, and you can't do that if he is all-in, he will automatically get two more cards, and two more chances to beat you, for free.
See my corrections to Cluck's fallacies. The first one was serious, the second one I was just fooling around.
Yes, you should have let this opportunity pass, without question. It wasn't really an opportunity, you just saw it that way. You are lucky that no one else with a legitimate hand was in the pot with you.
Your assumption that your hand was probably much better than his was also misguided, J7o is hardly better than the average random hand (isn't the "average" hand Q7, the "computer" hand?). You could not have been getting much, if any, value on your raise, even if you KNEW everyone else would fold, and it would be heads up.
Dave in Cali
If he's in with a random hand then your hand is better so why not take his money? It would be better if it were J7suited, but not much.
There will be times that someone behind you will reraise to islolate both of you as well but you shouldn't worry about that too much. If this is your first time light raising him, then only legitimate four/three bet hands will come in? Right? So then you can bail if you don't hit a big flop. And if you get two pair on the flop imagine the big hands surprise. And if an ace comes maybe you can shake him off KK or something. Who knows? Its depends on the players. Another thing: position. The earlier the better, as it will give more credibility to the raise.
While you are quick to credit HFAP for your insight, don't be so quick to give away your interpretation of it. That is what makes the games good.
RGP. Dynamite. (you know like AC/DC song).
Off to never never land.
>>>If he's in with a random hand then your hand is better so why not take his money? It would be better if it were J7suited, but not much.<<<<
I don't have the charts in front of me, but my guess is that J7 unsuited is about as close to a mediocre hand as possible, so obviously it isn't automatically better. The key to the posting was that the player is very aggressive pre-flop but almost never shows down, an advantage his being all-in has effectively taken away. It worked out, but it was essentially a coin-flip.
That is a horrible play. What did you figure your chances of getting his last $9 were with J7o. He could have raised Q2o and had you beaten. I really don't think this play is anywhere in HPFAP.
Derrick
is a dangerous thing.
Your hand is lousy heads up and will be shown down knowing that the other player is all in. You are a dog against a random hand here, AND you have now established a maniac image and will most likely be seeing other people 3 bet YOU.
1) Player X is a maniac who has been raising with garbage hands all night. He just raised, so he must have a garbage hand.
2) I won the hand so I made the right and praiseworthy play.
They SHOULD read...
player X is a maniac who has been raising with garbage hands all night. He just raised, so he IS MORE LIKELY TO have a garbage hand than an average player.
2) I won the hand, so I therefore must be a super-genius, and my brilliant strategies will no doubt insure the financial success of my poker exploits for many years to come. I should go play 15-30.
Well... maybe not that second one....
Dave in Cali
If you state fallacy #1 as you just did, it is no longer a fallacy. I think you missed the point. Just an observation :)
Actually Clovis, I was pulling some third level thinking on YOU, which in actuality, makes YOU the one who missed the point... You see, by stating ONE of the two statements in such a manner as to make it no longer a fallacy, I changed WHAT the point was completely.... You see, you thought I was thinking that you thought, but in reality, I was thinking that you were thinking that I was thinking that you ...
Oh, NEVERMIND!!!
Dave in Cali
J7o is a terrible terrible terrible hand to do this with.
J7 offsuit does not stand a 50% chance of beating a random hand.
You could run into another player to act after you who will call your reraise or cap it with a real hand that does, in fact, beat Jx offsuit.
Nowhere in HPFAP does it say to make this move with this kind of hand.
I can see it is going to be awhile before you have a chance to become a winning player.
PS you should not even defend your blind with this kind of hand, not even against a maniac.
Jesus. Lighten up.
Whether the play itself was a winning move is NOT the issue here. What's important is that Dan has become aware of yet another of the many dynamics that comprise Hold 'em, which certainly calls for encouragement.
Also, it wouldn't hurt to slow down on the 'winning player' stuff. As I mentioned before on the internet forum, I tend to agree with your assessment of most LL players and their tendency to delude themselves. That said, it makes no sense to shove your Hold 'em prowess in everyone's face, since-- and let's face it-- nobody knows who you are or if you're really a winner. When your posts take a pissy or confrontational tone you can be sure that nobody's taking you seriously, as you'll note that virtually all of the respected and renown posters here make a habit of keeping their posts civil.
If you're really that good, your ideas will speak for themselves. If you're just another jack-off-- and again I don't know, you could be crushing the 40-80 daily--- then you can rest assured that the tone of your posts will convey this as well, and that the posters on this forum will pick up on that.
I really liked your last post especially the following:
"If you're really that good, your ideas will speak for themselves."
I think too often people judge the comments they hear from who uttered them and not their content.
Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back, here, Dan. IMO, you played just as poorly as the other guy, maybe more so, and just lucked out.
Putting a maniac all-in with trash like J-7o is lunacy. Even if he does have trash, you have no way of forcing him to lay down a better, but mediocre, hand on the turn or river. It's just a coin flip, basically, and I don't want to be flipping coins with weak players.
So the guy's raising loosely. So what? Patience, my man, patience. Punish him when you've got something.
Just my take.
Been pretty busy at work lately, so haven't been playing and/or posting much lately, but dropped in to the room last night for a couple of hours. Funny how the faces never seem to change a whole lot. lol
Very loose, passive, 3-6 HE game. Couple of players I didn't know much about, but several regulars. I pick up QdJd on the button. Five limpers to me, I call, as do both blinds. Eight of us take the flop of Qh-8s-5c.
Checked around to guy 2 to my right. I had only been in the game 20 minutes, but had already seen this kid play fast and loose. Very loose. He bets, fold from cutoff seat. I raise. Blinds fold, guy in early position coldcalls. Everyone else folds, original bettor just calls.
Mission accomplished to this point. I have reduced the field, and am probably in the lead at this point, I figure.
Turn card is 9h. Two checks to me, I bet, EP player checkraises, and other guy coldcalls. Your play.
Checkraiser and other guy are two of three buddies at the table who have been softplaying each other, checking down hands when heads up. Does this affect your decision?
Comments and critiques of play so far in the hand welcome. Results later in the show.
It sure smells like a set or two pair IMO. With him cold calling two bets on the flop, I think he probably has 88 or 55. Is he loose enough to play Q8 up front?
You have a call because you're getting 1:12 to draw for your gutshot, but I think you have to drop on the river if you dont improve and he bets out.
With the two guys normally softplaying eachother, I would only be more inclined to think that EP has a very good hand.
Looking forward to see the results.
Hey Dunc, long time no see, I was wondering what happened to you.First, Never play QJ! If you've been reading the forum lately its been a big loser for me.
Ok more seriously:
I like the flop raise; a better Q would have been raised preflop. I'm guessing he has Qx sooted. EP coldcaller worries me somewhat, since there are not too many draws; maybe 67 for open ended.
EP: turn checkraise; you are in trouble. The only reasonable draw to call a flop raise with was 67 for the open ender, and I suspect it was just hit. You could call, but unless you spike your 10 I think you are dead to a 10.
However! There are 12 BB in the pot, so you might just be getting odds to call the turn on your 4 outer. Higher variance certainly. I'd probably call it down but feel like a fish for doing so.
IMO, you are beat and should fold. If the early cold caller / check-raiser is a loose player, I would put him on a straight or two pair at this point, but a straight seems like a likely hand, otherwise he would have probably bet before now. Also, loose unskilled players tend to make fancy plays even when it might not be the best possible play. If he has a straight, you have three outs, if he has two pair, you could have up to five outs, but any of these might be fewer due to the two flush and cold caller. The cold caller on the turn probably just picked up a flush draw to go with his pair, thus further reducing the number of "good" river cards for you, even IF you are currently ahead. I think this is a generic case of "if you are raised on the turn or river in a loose, low limit game, top pair is beat". While folding the best hand is a possibility, I really don't think it is very likely to be so. Fold.
Dave in Cali
I don't know why I didn't consider the possibility that you were beat on the flop, like by a set, but it really doesn't change my opinion much. A set would commonly be played that way by many opponents. I disagree with Ikke and David Ottosen on the turn call. I believe that with the turn cold caller, you do not have four outs to a straight, you only have three, with the Th being no good. Add in the possibility that the loose player might have JT instead of 67, and I think you should still fold, despite the relatively large pot.
I do not see why the Th is no good. Ofcourse, a flush is now possible, but I would put the cold caller much more on a pair, most likely a good queen (Dunc Mills described him as loose). I think only a very few times that the Th is no good, especially because the Q on the flop is of hearts, so if he has a queen he could not have a flush.
Hey I wasn't married to calling. I said you probably (barely) have odds to call, but it would be a higher variance play.
I'm in the middle of crushing this 3-6 game over at PP, while answering the phones in the office while all the girls are having lunch, but I have time to squeeze in some comments here.
When the MP played coldcalled the checkraise, there were probably just enough bets in the pot to try for a gutshot, but I had seen enough of the checkraiser's play to know that I was behind at this point. I just didn't know by how much. If he had 2 pair, I probably had outs, but if he had hit the open ender, I was drawing thin. He could have even conceivably hit his own JT gutshot here. I said they were loose.
I mucked the hand, preferring to take the low variance way out, knowing full well that I would get more attractive oppotunities very soon, without a guess. An offsuite Jack hits the river, which would have given me Top Two. Much to my surprise the checkraiser bets out against his buddy. This made me think he was running a bluff, but the buddy now raises! Now I'm happier than ever I folded! EP calls.
Check-raiser had 98o. Decent play to check-raise on the turn, put me to the test, and I at this point I was happy he had done so. I was sure the other guy was going to show down a str8. The friend now shows down J5o!!! My two pair would have been good. Sigh.
The guy on my right got what he deserved. Bets out on the flop with bottom pair, gets raised and cold called, calls a check-raise COLD on the turn still with nothing more than bottom pair, hits his kicker on the river, and then raises the checkraiser with a 1-card str8 on the board, and wins the pot! Aiyeee! Welcome back to LL madness!
I don't think my turn fold is a big money maker or loser one way or the other in the long run. I just sat there mentally shaking my head at the plays these other two made. Yikes. The table did tighten up a little bit later and held me to a $50 per hour take home for the sit.
"The guy on my right got what he deserved. Bets out on the flop with bottom pair, gets raised and cold called, calls a check-raise COLD on the turn still with nothing more than bottom pair, hits his kicker on the river, and then raises the checkraiser with a 1-card str8 on the board, and wins the pot! "
Gotta love it!
I agree that your decision was close, and that it probably didn't make that much of a difference either way. Although I disagreed with David and Ikke, I don't think either one of them was "wrong", they were just taking the higher variance route. It would have been tough to stay in on the river with that kind of action anyway. If someone other than me would care to do the math, they can conclusively prove that one decision was better than the other. And if that decision was more than 5% better than the next best choice, I will send them a crisp five dollar bill for each percentage point over 5%!
Dave in Cali
I agree with that....it's not a big mistake to fold or to call; I think calling is a bit more +EV, but it adds a lot to your variance.
Another reason to fold is that you get a complicated situation if you hit two pair, as happened.
I think I would lean towards a call simply because I don't want these guys thinking they can take shots at me since it makes my life more complicated in the future.
What's wrong with people taking shots at you? When they checkraise you with nothing and you call (or reraise) they've just made a nice donation...
I guess it depends what type of player you want to play against. Certainly, you can exploit the image when guys think they can take shots at you.
However, I prefer to play against meek calling stations than overly aggressive, tricky players.
Other good players will take notice of your propensity to lay down to checkraises or aggression. This might have the effect of causing them to bluff more optimally against you.
I am not overly concerned about my image with this crew. I think (know) I have a lot of respect with the regulars as a solid, aggressive, successful player at these limits. I have played live against both Jim Roy and Dave Ottosen here in Edmonton, and while I consider both of these gentlemen to be solid players, I know they know ( or at least I think they know I know, confused?) that they can't get away with too much funny stuff at the table with me. They know, or should know, that I will play back hard if I've got the goods.
Hey, if you aren't capable of getting bluffed out once in a while, you are calling down WAY too much. With Jim Roy and Dave, we might get into some 2nd and 3rd level thinking on plays. What's he thinking about what I'm thinking about what he's thinking about , sort of stuff. But trust me on this, with the VAST majority of the players in these LL games, they don't remember from one hand to the next who did what. If I'm getting checkraised on the turn from a generally passive calling station, buzzers are going off.
As I said, I don't think my laydown would in the long run be +/- EV much one way or the other. Once in while, I'll run someone over like I would have with these two. But I still think I made an overall good laydown. Dave and Jim Roy, just don't try anything too tricky. LOL
Next time we play Im going to semicheckbluffraisecheckbluffsemicheck you
I agree that your laydown was fine. This wasn't really the place to make the stand against aggressive opponents. Laying down to a turn check-raise that clearly indicates that you are beaten is probably not playing weakly enough to induce more aggression against you in the future anyway.
Dave in Cali
Although I advocated folding in the original situation presented by Dunc, if folding will encourage people to take these kinds of shots at you later, then calling wasn't far from wrong, if at all. You want your opponents to play passively and predictably against you, not "make moves" against you, because they saw you make a "big laydown". The river on this hand shows exactly why, you don't want to continually be faced with making tough decisions with only moderately strong hands. Had he been in the pot, could he have even called it?
I will on occasion pay off on the end against an especially aggressive opponent, just to show him that I can't be easily bullied, even if I would have folded against a more typical player. Unfortunately, you MUST pay off more against aggressive opponents. The reason for this is built in to the way they play... They are "AGGRESSIVE", therefore they make aggressive moves with more hands than a typical player would, and subsequently make aggressive moves with WEAKER hands than a normal player would. My favorite cardroom has several players like this, they are extremely aggressive on all rounds, but when they raise the turn or river, it doesn't necessarily mean what you are expected to think it means.... I will call them down and make them show me, because I know if I get in the habit of folding against their aggressive moves, they will get in the habit of being more aggressive against me when I am in the pot, and I won't let that happen.
Keep in mind, I am talking about aggressive opponents, not maniacs, they have their own separate strategy. A maniac is usually indiscriminantly raising everything. Someone taking shots at YOU SPECIFICALLY is much more worrysome, and should not be taken lying down....
Against the unobservant, image doesn't mean much. However, Image is a major consideration when it comes to keeping aggressive opponents from trying to run you over. You shouldn't let them, and you should play in a way that minimizes their aggressive moves against you, even if this means sometimes calling them down when you would usually fold.
Dave in Cali
My propensity to lay down to aggression may also cause my opponents to bluff more than optimally against me.
While I do agree with what you have to say, still I am not worried about people "making moves" against me for the following reasons:
1. I can adjust my play accordingly.
2. How many times have you had the nuts and been checkraised?
3. I have an aggressive image myself, especially if I'm winning (ie when I get nice cards I jam it), so my opponents are usually on the defensive anyways.
4. I think it's almost always best to make the best EV play at the time.
Example for #2: The only two times that I've had a royal flush I was raised on the river.
BTW Dunc, nice fold. The pot was small, your hand was weak, your gutshot draw was minimal (and to a split pot). The specific river + opponents' hands giving you a win in that situation was pretty rare.
Jim "Gotta have the last word" Roy
"I think it's almost always best to make the best EV play at the time. "
This should be your general definition for making your decisions, to make the best EV move every time. The things I was saying in my post DO in fact take this into consideration. Calling down an aggressive opponent is often the highest EV move you can make. The chance of his betting with a weaker hand than he is representing, combined with his playing less aggressively against you in the future, make calling the highest EV play in a great deal of these situations.
There are some times when it is obvious you are beat though. In this situation, calling for image purposes is foolish. You must make these plays when there is doubt, not when you are almost certainly beat.
Dave in Cali
This hand happened a few weeks ago and I just haven't gotten around to posting it.
4-8 hold em at foxwoods. The game has been made up of the usual weak-loose players. The hand. I'm in late postion with J10off. There are about 4 limpers, I limp, and the SB raises with the BB calling and all the limpers calling. 6 way action for two bets. The SB was a very aggresive player who could be raising anything from AA all the way down to possibly K10 suited.
The flop comes a J with two rags, rainbow. The SB bets out and everyone calls. Should I raise here? I don't since I'm really not too sure where I'm at. The turn comes another rag. Everyone checks to me and I bet. I get 4 callers, including the SB. The river also blanks off and everyone checks to me again. I check it down and my 10 kicker is good. I think that the SB had either pocket 10's or 9's and would have called the river for the size of the pot, and I know that the two others with Jacks and lower kickers would have called. Should I have bet the river? I usually check these hands down because I can't think of a hand that would call me that I can beat, but would AJ, KJ, or QJ check the turn and the river? Probably not.
Anyways, any responses would be greatly appreciated.
Peace
Goodie
I think that you were incredibly lucky to have your hand hold up. When a player leads into a crowd on a jack-high flop and gets four callers, how can your hand be any good? At least one player should have had a better jack than you so you rate to be playing three outs at best which is a 15-to-1 shot. You can call only because of the pot odds not because you think your hand is any good. Raising would be obscene.
On the turn when a blank comes and it is checked to you, I guess betting is your only play since you want to drive out any overcards and it appears that your hand is good. But when you get four callers you are done with it. I think it was a true poker miracle that your hand held up.
That's what I thought, too. I was really stunned that my hand was good on the river and I actually told my brother that's definetly the biggest pot I had ever won with J10 when I had only top pair. I guess the only reason that I questioned myself is because I saw the hands that were folded and thought of the extra bets I could have made on the river. Results-oriented is no way to be when dealing with poker, though, so I'm glad I got some re-enforcement of my play.
Thanks for the response.
Peace
Goodie
If you know that a maniac is in the SB and has a very high chance of raising, do you want to pay two bets to see the flop with J,10 off?
I think I would have folded here unless the J,10 were suited.
The SB was not a maniac. The worst hand I had saw him raise with was K10 suited. He just didn't understand position. He would raise instead of calling with these hands, even when he was out of position, whereas solid players know to only raise monster hands from the SB with four limpers. The reason I mentioned it was to say that he didn't neccessarily have to have AA, KK, QQ, JJ, or AKs. On the same token, he wasn't raising with complete crap, either.
Peace
Goodie
I don't know. I agree it's a miracle your hand held up, but I would've bet the river for value. In a game like that, who knows what'll call you?
That, my friend, is an excellent point. I'm fairly sure I'd have just called the flop, but I KNOW I would have bet the turn, and on the river my hands would have gone for my chips as well. For indeed, who knows? It's not obvious just what's going to call that can beat you, but I am sure that you can collect an extra BB here from at least one pocket pair or big A.
I have a rule about these games; when I flop top pair or better, and the top pair is a paint, I will always value bet the river against three or fewer opponents so long as a) there is no four flush or four straight on board, and b) two overcards to my pair have not fallen. I will also deviate from this rule if I've been played back at anytime during the hand. But if I've got QJo, the flop comes Qd 8d 7s, the turn's the 5s and the river's the 3d I am betting every time. If I get raised and there's a cold caller I'm dumping, or if the raiser is unusually tight I'll fold as well, but as a rule I expect goofy 8's and 7's to call me, as well as hands like Q9o.
If you're not aggressively value betting the river in LL hold 'em you'll have a hell of a hard time making any money.
Guy
The only problem with betting the river is that you may get pushed off the best hand. What would you do if someone had check raised?
Hi,
I am reading Lee Jones after reading Sklansky/Malmuth and Jones does not advocate calling with:
T9s, QTs, 98s, J9s, KTs
in early position (no raises in front). These are Group 4 hands in Sklansky/Malmuth which are starting hands in Early Position)
Will playing these 5 hands in early position make much of a difference in a 3-6 typical table??? (1-2 tight agressive players, the rest loose and passive.)
Or put another way, do you play these hands from early position? When and why?
Thanks, JM
I really don't think S&M say that you should play these hands from an early position. If they do, I tend to disagree with them except in the absolute best game conditions (loose passive... very passive).
Derrick
I believe that in the games Lee Jones is addressing which are low limit, loose-passive games then it is okay to limp in early with these hands since the likelihood of getting raised is small. However, in S&M's HPFAP, they are addressing middle limit games which tend to be tighter with more preflop raising. In these games, it would be a bad idea to routinely limp with these speculative drawing hands in early position since the likelihood of getting raised is high and you will usually be playing heads-up or three-way out of position against better hands.
We say to play these hands in an unraised pot if the game is "typical." In the games that I play, which is mostly the $30-$60 limit at The Bellagio, I usually play all of these if I am in early position in an unraised pot.
If you are in a game where it is likely that you will be raised and then be playing one of these hands either heads-up or three way out of position then as our book recommends you should fold them before the flop. But I find this to rarely be the case, especially in the games later at night as opposed to the afternoon games which tend to be tighter. Also, the larger blind structure of the $30-$60 games encourages multiway action.
Everywhere I have played, cali, NJ, and Vegas, plus tahoe too, I have seen the phenomenon you mentioned here: The games tend to be looser at night and tighter during the day. I think it's because of all the "regulars", who tend to live nearby, and play during the hours normal people are awake. Regulars are often, but not always, quite a bit tighter than the typical drunken tourist at 230 in the morning. Quite a few regulars meet the definition of "Rock". If you tried to squeeze a nickel out of them, they would want 4c change. IMO, games in general are better at night everywhere....
Dave in Cali
J9s in early position? This strikes me as a loose call. I would muck this in early position, even if the game is "loose-passive".
I usually play it. But at best it is very marginal.
it is very marginal, but if the game is loose passive, that's a reason to play it. I would, most of the time, as long as the players were not very aggressive. In any type of game other than loose passive I would fold it without hesitation.
JM,
S&M hand rankings have some caveats. Hands can be in a certain group but only play best in certain circumstances. None of these hands should be played up front in a middle limit game. Reread the sections on early, middle and late position play to clarify what hands should be played when.
As far as LL games, which I play the most, I would dump all these hands up front. They are difficult to play out of position and you may be tempted to bet when you get a small piece of the flop and find it 3 bets by the time it gets back to you. If you can be over 90% sure that the pot will not be raised and you have good discipline post-flop I might say give it a try once and a while with the connectors but you are certainly not giving anything up if you chuck all of them.
KJS
These hands are absolutely playable, IMO, if the following conditions are met: 1. Lots of callers 2. No raisers
You must also have the ability to dump the hand when you don't squarely hit the flop.
I wouldn't play J9s and especially not 98s early unless the game was extremely loose and passive, but in a typical casino low limit game the others are worth a call.
I limp T9s, QTs and KTs UTG in a loose passive game where i am almost certain I won't be isolated. J9s and 98s I usually throw away. T9s i'll keep calling in tougher games that QTs and KTs, somewhat paradoxically, because im fairly sure that in the event I get isolated, I'm at least not dominated. I don't know whether this is good thinking or nonsense, but there you go.
Chris
In the earlier edition of Lee Jones' book (1994 version)where he discusses preflop play from early position he summarizes on page 37:
"Call: QQ-TT,AKs-JTs,AQs-QTs,AJs-KTs,AK-KQ, and AQ (If the game is loose-passive add 99-66,98s-87s,QJ-98)"
He goes on to state, "if the game is loose-passive" you will play about one in seven hands."
This would imply that he did advocate playing T9s,QTs,98s,J9s, and KTs in loose-passive games in the first edition of his book.
However, in the current edition he no longer delineates what additional hands you can come in with if the game is loose-passive. However, he retains the same statement about playing one in seven hands in a loose-passive game.
a
So here's the problem ...
Things were going fine until the turn, and then, outta nowhere, some guy gives you a shot. So while you're saying "What the f--k already?!?" (Sorry, suffering Sopranos withdrawal, there's gonna be a couple more bad Mafia references...), now youze gotta decide whether to carry on, or just fuhgeddaboutit.
We've all been there. On the surface, our hand could have a lot of outs. But then, if one of our opponents is holding xyz, then we lose half of them, some of our outs could be drawing to a split, etc. In short, we've got a bunch of dirty outs.
But how many outs do we use to decide whether we can continue or not? Can we call up our friend Tony to "launder" our dirty outs and come up with an equivalent number of "clean" ones?
Well, as with all reputable laundering operations, there is, of course, a "modest" commission. In the simplest cases, I have been having success simply halving the number of outs. If I have 8 dirty outs, I do the calculation using 4. Obviously, this is an oversimplification, but for quick guesstimates in the heat of battle, it's not bad. So, for example, when drawing to an open-ended straight on a two-tone board, I'll often use 7 outs (6 clean, and 0.5 * 2 dirty ones) in my calculations.
I occasionally have trouble with more complicated situations, though.
Here's an example: You open raise from early position with AQo, get 3 cold-callers, and the BB calls.
The flop comes A T 5 rainbow. You bet, get two callers behind you, and the BB calls as well. On the turn, a jack falls. You bet, and get raised, folding the other two opponents.
Well, let's see. The pot at this point contains 10 BB, and you need to put in 1 more, plus, if you decide to call on the turn, lacking a solid read, the size of the pot likely will compel you to call on the end as well. 11 to 2 on continuing = 5.5 to 1 odds.
Your opponent is currently tilting after having blown off $200 of profit in the space of half an hour. While reasonably sure that he has you beat, the question "With what?" looms large.
Let's look at some scenarios, and the number of outs which you have in each. For the sake of argument, we'll say your opponent is the sort to slowplay two-pair or a set on the flop.
If he holds AT or A5: 4 kings, 3 queens, and 3 jacks = 10 outs.
If he holds AJ: 3 queens and 4 kings = 7 outs.
If he holds JT: 2 aces, 4 kings, 3 queens and 3 fives = 12 outs.
If he holds T5 (?): 2 aces, 4 kings, and 3 queens 3 jacks = 12 outs.
If he holds J5 (?): 2 aces, 4 kings, and 3 queens 3 tens = 12 outs.
If he holds JJ, TT, or 55: 4 king outs.
If he holds KQ: 4 king outs for a split.
Notice that none of your outs are completely clean. Certainly the 4 kings appear to be your best hope, but even then, you could be drawing to a split. On the other hand, in the best case scenario, if he holds JT, J5, or T5, you have 12 outs to call with, but you can't be entirely sure of where you stand even if one of them does come in.
Using my standard laundering formula, I'd likely come up with 6 clean outs. Maybe 7, considering the fact that the king outs aren't entirely tainted, and that if a king hits, I do have the nuts, and can bet with impunity.
Unfortunately, with the rest of my "outs," I'm pretty much forced to check and call, since, for example, while a jack is a good card in some cases, it most decidedly is not in others.
What do you guys think of the reasoning I use in these situtaions? How do you guys handle dirty outs? I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the subject. How would you guys play in the hand example above?
I approximate.
You have touched on something that has been nagging at me for some time.
Remember that the whole point of this is to analyze the situation and then call, fold, or raise according to the information you have. We are not truly interested in our chance of making a certain draw. What we really want to know is the best EV play. Sure our chance of nailing a draw is important, but so are betting patterns, player tendancies & images, bluffing frequencies, implied odds, and so forth. And the hard part is that these things are often mixed up and dependant upon one another.
Example #1: What is the chance that a certain scare card comes up and the chance that I can bluff my opponent out in a pot limit game?
Example #2: What is the chance in holdem that my Ace-King high flush draw is actually the BEST HAND?
My current method of analyzing a hand is the "outs" system (as well as most posters). Usually you roughly calculate you outs and based on the bet size vs pot size you make your decision to call/fold/raise.
But many things mess up the "outs" system...
Example: Your hand: 8s 7s Flop: Ah 9h 6s
You are "open ended" with 8 outs.
But not so simple (especially on the flop). There are many modifications you can make.
- (2 outs) x (Chance that somebody has a flush draw)
- (0.5 outs) x (Chance of flush draw) {this is for the flush redraw}
+ (1 out) {for running spades} x (Chance that your spade draw is the highest)
+ (6 outs) x (Chance that nobody in hand has a pair)
- (? outs) x (Chance that somebody has a set or two pair and will redraw you or get a lock on turn)
- (? outs) x (Chance of running hearts)
+ (? outs) x (Running trips or two pair) x (Chance that they will be the best hand)
1/2 x (Your total outs) x (Chance somebody also has 87)
+ Bonus outs if you can make everybody fold
Now you figure your implied odds. Notice that many of the factors that decrease your outs increase your implied odds. If somebody has a set or the same hand as you the pot could be capped on the turn. And let's say a couple people have heart draws too, now they will pay a lot of chips to get to the river. Your decreased draw is canceled by the increase in implied odds, leaving you with perhaps very close to the original pot odds!
While it is not important to be accurate to within 0.1 outs, these factors are still a major impact in Holdem.
Just think of how messy it gets in Omaha when you have many many outs and so do your opponents. Not only that, you have more information (more cards dealt out) so the outs analysis becomes even more important percentage wise. Make it pot limit Omaha and you are forced to include bluffing, split pots, and all-ins.
As yet another side note, I can't believe you are not playing Omaha Dave. You should find a quick summary of how to play (starting hands, what to expect, tricks, ect) and sit down. Some of the hands you get with multi-way draws in high-low split will blow your mind! It can be a lot of fun.
And to comment on your hand, if you think they guy has KQ then you essentially have 2 outs because you are drawing to half the pot. If you think he has 2 pair or better then you should call and fold on the river if the board doesn't pair. If you're not sure at all then you should simply call him down. Note that I am capable of giving you a shot on the turn with simply AQ (if I have position). This would be if by some tell I think you may have KK, or even if I'm just not sure, because you will not reraise me nor bet into me on the river (thus being the same as calling you down). However I (possibly) gain an extra bet if I hit my draw. Being that the guy is stuck he might be desperately trying to take a shot at you with Ace-rag. It depends on the player.
Anyways the thing that has been nagging me is that maybe there is a better system than the "outs" system for hand analysis. A complete EV analysis yields the best results, but it is quite long. Reading posts in this forum and books which analyze a certain hand or situation is very helpful to me, but it is difficult to remember at the table sometimes (often because many situations are unique). I wonder, is there another way?
Jim Roy
3-6 game at the Taj. I'm in the big blind with AQ off. UTG calls, two players fold, next player raises. Everyone folds to me, I just call (right or wrong, I didn't think a raise would drive out UTG and I didn't want to see it capped). UTG calls. Flop comes A-8-7 rainbow. I bet out, UTG calls, next player raises. I decide to make it $9 with my top pair, good kicker. UTG calls, next player calls. Turn comes an offsuit 4. I bet out, UTG now raises. Next player folds and I call (I think I should have folded here maybe, he almost definitely has me beat if he slowplayed). I checked and called the river (some brick) and he showed his set of 8's....Comments?
I find AKo and AQo to be trouble hands in the BB indeed. Big pairs and AKs is really in the 'play themselves' group, but these two are often difficult hands to have in BB.
Re-raising pre-flop here would be insane, against one limper (who, in low-limit, usually stays in even against two raises) and one raiser, re-popping without position it is usually incorrect with this good, but not great hand.
An exception could be if you know this limper to be prone to fold to two raises and the raisor to have loose raising standards (although in late position, against one or two limpers, I consider most playable hand to be worthy a raise, limping is incorrect).
I would maybe just check-raise the flop. Because you are in BB, there is usual a vast amount of hands you could be playing, and the check-raise would certainly protect you from further raises from AK (one of the very possible hands for the raiser), which would enable you to bet the turn more comfortably without having invested $9 on a fairly marginal holding on the flop.
In my opinion, though, you didn't play the hand that bad, as I said, I find this hand to be a trouble hand in BB, but other more experienced players might be able to point out a few mistakes more clearly.
Preflop, you should not reraise with ace-queen offsuit since the preflop raiser could easily have you dominated with AA,KK,QQ, or AK. From the big blind your call is fine.
On the flop, I am assuming that the flop raiser is a different player than the preflop raiser. Getting raised in this situation is not as bad because the flop raiser is just saying with his raise "I have an ace". But you have a big ace so reraising is fine. At this point I would be assuming that the UTG is hanging around on a straight draw.
Getting popped on the turn is always problematic having just top pair even with an excellent kicker. In middle limit games you will almost always be up against two pair and sometimes a set. This means you are anywhere from drawing dead to having eight outs. The right action is to frequently fold depending upon what you know about your opponent. But in low limit games, where many opponents are simply unaware, you usually have to pay off here.
I think you played fine. Next time against this particular opponent you will know to fold in this situation.
Jim,
I have made a decent amount of money with semibluff raises on the turn against players who feel that turn raises = monster hands. The players all fold, and I win without making a hand. Routinely dropping top pair to a turn raise can set you up for this kind of play.
You are only setting yourself up to get worked like this if the other players at the table are paying attention. And while I hate to generalize, most players at a 3-6 table aren't that tuned in the play of their opponents.
I try to make a point of mucking here, especially since the pot isn't that big. I've been popped like this about 70 times this year, and I think my hand was good in about 3 of those instances (that I called). Either way, however, isn't likely to cost you or earn you much.
Unless a player has a relatively high sneakiness rating, I fold to a turn raise with top pair unless I'm also drawing to a straight or flush.
I also like puling the turn raise or check-raise bluff, as long as I've got someone on the line capable of laying down a hand. But I submit the low limit players who are capable of pulling this off are few in number, and stand out by their propensity to make other deceptive plays.
best,
zooey
I dont' think a reraise btf is insane if a) your reraise will get it heads up b) the raiser has loose raising standards. In fact in these were the conditions I find it hard to believe you would want to just call...
You should be very nervous of the cold call on the flop. It usually means a big hand or a big draw. And many people with a big draw after the fireworks (eg you three betting) will cap on the flop. (though the only real draws are 56 69 and 9T). SO the 4 isn't a blank and could leave you drawing dead, (unless of course your already badly beat).
I think a very important lesson is if you have a good player smooth calling a reraise you really need to put him on big draw or a big hand.
I suspect the 8's could have smooth called the turn also hoping the button would hit it again. But I digress...
I suspect someone will tell me I am judging by results but if you reraised you might have won the hand. (UTG could have easily folded).
As for JB's comments are middle limit players that you play with really that predictable? WIll a raise on the turn really indicate 2 pair or better? Its often not the case where I have played, it would be nice to know if you were raised on the turn that your adversary had such hands.
I wonder if checking the turn is correct. If both you and the button should know utg has a monster or a big draw certainly the button will bet the turn if both you and utg check. I doubt the button understands this though...
All of this analysis goes out the window if the UTG is not an OK player or better...
5-10 at the Taj. I'm on the button with pocket jacks. 4 callers to me, I raise, SB folds, BB calls, everyone calls. 6 players, $60 in the pot. Flop comes J-2-4, two clubs. EP player bets, folded to the cut-off who calls, I raise to make draws pay. Both call. Turn is a 7 of clubs, which I obviously don't like. Checked to cut-off who bets; I decide to raise even though I may be beaten b/c I have outs to a boat. Both calls. River is unimportant (some non-club, non straight card, I dont remember). Checked to me, I show the set and win. Should I have won $20 more here or was I right to check it down (one of these players had checked a small flush in the same situation and then just called before). Comments?
I like your decision of checking the river. There is definitely a good chance one of them had a flush and was looking to check raise you on the river.
Your opponents may have thought that your raise on the turn signified the nut flush which means that someone with a non-nut flush won't bet the river. However, with only two opponents I tend to doubt that anyone has a flush on the turn. I like your raise on the turn because no one may have a flush and you have ten outs to beat a flush anyway. My tendency would be to bet the river after my two opponents check to me because I think my hand is good and I will get calls from worse hands. However, if you have observed that these specific opponents would check non-nut flushes in this situation, then I like your play.
I also think much depends on whether or not someone cold-called two on the turn. If they did, I'd be more inclined to check, although I'd probably end up betting anyway. If they didn't cold call then I'm almost sure I'd value bet the river, although If I got check-raised and THEN cold called I'd have to give some serious thought to cutting my losses
usually good advice, except in this PARTICULAR instance, if the opponents are going to call, and one of them thinks he has a flush, then they will only call with hands that can win. Thus I think a check here is the correct play. Especially, even tho it is not mentioned here, if one of the players has a tendency to check-raise bluff. I know that is unlikely, but could happen if the unkowing player has second or third set and isn't a good player. I think a check was the correct play.
Jeff,
I agree with your play. You may not realize it, but this is right out of HPFAP -- raise 2 pair or a set on the turn when the third flush card appears, then check it down unless you improve to a full house (page 141).
I like the check. What I've been trying to do lately, instead of applying blanket rules such as "always rasie the 3rd flush card and then check the river", is to try and imagine what specific hands my opponents could have that I can can beat and with which they will call a river bet.
Here, the only hands I can imagine are AJ,KJ, and QJ, as its unlikely 24 is out. Contrast these 12 hands to all the non nut flushes (45) that you'll lose 1 bet to, and the 10 nut flush hands you'll lose two bets to, and I think its pretty clear you should check.
But, like anytime I catch myself disagreeing with Jim Brier, I probably need to think about this more.
best,
zooey
You made the proper play. By raising the turn you gave yourself a cnace to win the pot right there, and you still had many outs to improve your hand at the river. Checking on the end is the correct play. The only hands that will call will most likely beat you, plus you got the extra bet on the turn which makes up for your check on the river. Well done.
Since you were not re-raised on the turn and have good position on your opponents, I think a river bet is correct.
Hey,
Any thoughts about playing ATo and A9o from middle/late position. (3-6 typical game)
Sklansky/Malmuth seem to indicate that playing these in middle postion is a bad idea but that ATo is playable from late position. However, no raising with them.
While Lee Jones recommends raising with AT from middle and late position.
I never play A9 and will play ATo from late position. If you are in a game where players tend to play with any ace ... how does this influence you decision? Would AT become more playable or less because these poor players may just flop two pair with A6, A5 etc. and you have no way of knowing this.
Thanks for any help, JM
I will routinely pitch either hand from middle position. A9 goes to the muck in late as well. I will raise with AT about half the time when facing weak or very tight blinds.
If it is folded to me and I am position 7 (10 is the button) or later I will raise with either hand. If someone has limped before me I usually pitch both hands.
Derrick
In the average (if there is such a thing) low limit game, I will call the blinds with a-10 in middle and a-9 late. I may raise if i am late with either and there has been no callers. I will fold both with a raise in front of me unless the raiser is a maniac.
"Sklansky/Malmuth seem to indicate that playing these in middle postion is a bad idea but that ATo is playable from late position. However, no raising with them."
You should raise if first in and can raise if there are one or (perhaps) two limpers and these are weak players. It also helps if the remaining plauers tend to be tight and wiull respect your raise. (This is consistent with what we say in out book.)
You need to understand that ace-ten offsuit is a better hand than ace-nine offsuit not only because of the increased high card strength but because of the straight making possibilities using both your cards.
I limp in behind others with ace-ten offsuit but fold ace-nine offsuit behind limpers. If no one has yet entered the pot, then I will open with a raise from middle position or late position with ace-ten offsuit. I fold ace-nine offsuit from middle position but will try to steal the blinds with it from late position (cutoff or button seats).
Hey,
$3-6
I am in late position with ATo. One or two people call the blind, as does the small blind and I.
5 in to see the flop ... K Q J of spades. ( I don't have a spade, but I have the nut straight)
Everybody checks to me and I bet , small blind calls, big blind raises, everybody else folds and small blind calls.
Three of us left. The turn and river are blanks. The raiser bets the turn and river and the small blind and I call until the showdown.
The guy who raised in the big blind is extremely loose and was on a tilt and almost always slowplays any kind of good hand.
I won as neither of them had two spades although the raiser had the ace of spades.
Was I an idiot to bet on the flop? Was I an idiot to call the rest of the way?
Thanks, JM
You played correctly. Flopped flushes are hard to come by and you should hang in there as long as the fourth spade does not appear. Make them show you a better hand. If the action were more vigorous such as betting and raising occuring on the turn or the river then that would be a different matter. Failure to bet the flop in this situation or to simply fold because someone else is betting would be very bad poker.
I think you played the hand correctly. When it is checked to you on the flop you must bet so that you don't give any free cards to a big spade. When BB raises you have to be concerned about the flush but he could have a number of other hands. I would just have called the turn and river like you did.
You played the hand fine. The only thing I would like to add to Jim and Clint's comments would be this. The fact that you just called the tilting player in the BB on the flop should be commended. I've seen many a player with your hand in the same scenario play back at the tilting player because of their reputation only for a spade to come on the river and then make a crying call. Then they go on full tilt buggie and become the live one.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
I think you should raise on the turn or reraise the flop. If this player is known to slowplay big hands it is less likely he has a flush, and he could have two pair, top pair etc...
I don't see how you can speculate on your craziness other than asking yourself ," am i crazy, why didn't reraise at some other point?"
3-6 game. i'm in big blind with 10h-6s and get a free ride. 2 SUPER tight players in the hand w/ me in middle and late position.
flop is 10c-6h-3c.
i bet. next player calls. late position folds.
turn is Jc.
i bet. a raise comes. [good read on the guy and only thing he raises w/ are nuts...so w/ this info...]
***what should I do here???***
[i call]
river is rag.
i check. he bets.
what should i do now???
results later.
i checked and called the river and am shown the nut flush.
okay, this is more on a my play evaluation b/c i figure that the pot isn't that big...so am i still supposed to pay off this guy on the river or save six bucks?
am i right to lead the turn and call his raise on the turn to outdraw for a boat? or should i surrender there?
help me, pls.
thanks.
Your read on the guy was correct, so, as I said in my other post, you had a clear fold. You were right to lead the turn, especially because of your read, you would get a lot of information if he raised (as he did), so you could safely fold, because you knew you were up against a flush.
Regards, ME
Jon:
When the thight player raised your bet on turn, you found yourself in a dilemma as to whether to fold or call even though you had (as it turned out) a solid read on his play.
Since you were holding two pair, you had 10 outs to make full house on the river, and the pot contained 7.5 big bets after his raise. Hence, the pot size gives you positive expectation to call his raise and see the river card. Doing just that, your call was correct.
Now on the river play, knowing "firmly" how this guy plays (i.e., betting only the nuts) you obviously wasted 6 dollars calling his bet by calling.
Ivan
Uhh..exactly how did you get 10 outs??? Against a full house you've only got 4.... two 10's and two 6's.
Regards, ME
.
Stand corrcted, ME!
A transfixed thought on my part, wherease referring to a two-pair hand but offering odds as if Jon held a set.
Good catch! Thanks for pointing it out to me.
Ivan
If your read on him is tight, then he likely has the flush if he is raising. fold em. so assuming that there were 3 in the flop:
Total of 5.5 BB (33 dollars) on the Turn, you had to call 1 BB (6 dollars) 1/5.5 With 4 outs 1/11.5 odds
is that math right y'all I am still new at this.
If it is fold is your right call. on the Turn.
If you're correct the way you describe him (only raising with the nuts), then you have a clear fold, because you haven't got the odds to draw to a 4 outer. With this kind of board, there are not many hands you can beat. Only something like AJ, KJ, or QJ. Could he raise you on the turn with this kind of hands, and is he a tricky player, then you have a call IMO, but against a typical, non-tricky opponent I would fold, because the most likely hands he has are a flush, JT, or a flopped set, leaving you not enough outs to continue.
Regards, ME
i don't understand. He only raises with the nuts and you want to know what to do? Fold. Don't give a tight player a call. Every dollar you give him is gone.
i'm asking if i should call the river even if my read on him is 'raises only w/ nuts' b/c of all that stuff u guys say about calling the river b/c one time out of ten [or something like that] he MAY be bluffing and that i can't REALLY be 100 percent sure...[all that probability stuff]
but is this the case...since the pot isn't that big...that a decision based on my read is correct? b/c i always hear about 'payoff the guy' 6 more bucks b/c in long run it may show a profit w/ bluffers...
Deciding to pay off or not is dependent on three factors.
1) The strength of your hand. The stronger your hand the more likely you are going to pay off.
2) The size of the pot. The bigger the pot the more likely you should pay off. The pot size also determines things like pot odds on drawing out, the propensity of being bluffed and other things. But simply put, if the pot is large I want to see that hand.
3) The opponent. This is usually the most important factor. Some players only raise with the nuts (or close to it). Avoid calling these people.
I am a non poster usually here due to the fact that I am still learning how to play as a "Winning" player. However I do enjoy reading this forum on a regular basis.
I would just like to say how great it is to have some of our question answered by the same people that we are reading books by. It greatly assists myself to see an excerpt from a book and have the author actually there to clarify the question
Thanks again for your time and keep up the wonderfull work.
even if you are still learning your questions are valued and needed. you owe it to others that can learn from you as you get better, one hand washes the other. give us some posts.
Am I a maniac?
Typically loose-passive 3-6-12 game.
Here's the context, I have raised a few hands ago with 72o on the button, flop bottom two pair, and a four-flush on board does me in on the river (but I make sure to show down). Later, I raise my Aces, flop is A-K-K, I bet out and the clowns show respect and fold. Unobservant bunch?
Alright, so I have Ks4s and limp in. Flop is Q74 with 7s. Supposedly aggressive player bets out. I raise, and the cast of clowns folds. He pops me and I cap. He doesn't know me well enough to know how aggressively I bet "potential"-type hands on the flop. Turn comes a spade, he checks I bet he calls. River is a spade, he checks I bet he calls.
He is very very upset.
I figure on the flop the Kings are (probably) outs, the 4's are outs, and the running spades are outs. Or am I just a maniac?
Pretend the river is a 2h.
Then ask yourself the same question.
In reality: Ok you have defined your respective hands on the flop. He must have a good queen or a set. However, If he had KQ or better, he should have raised preflop. So he's probably sitting on something like QT, in which case his hand is hardly strong enough to 3 bet on the flop (even against a maniac such as yourself).
However, your play has worked. Whatever he has, you have cowed him into submission on the turn and he checks. Take your free card. The real benefit of a check here is that he decides almost invariably on the river that you have made nada and were totally bluffing. He then bets out on the river, and you raise, with him calling (or even possibly reraising to "punish you"). Even more benefit in a 3-6-12 game where the double river bet is extremely painful.
I often like to play a hand such as yours similarly with a checkraise on the flop (obviously not an option in this situation). Then I check the turn, leading to confusion in my opponents mind, and he often checks after me, fearing another checkraise. If he bets, he's afraid I may checkraise him again, and the table will start laughing at him for falling for repeated checkraises.
I like the way you played the hand, other than the turn bet. The only reason to bet the turn is to get him to fold, and he is unlikely (read never) going to fold the turn to a bet. While the semi bluff on the turn isn't bad usually, against this opponent in this situation, it has to be negative EV, since you have less than a 1 in 3 chance of making your hand on the river.
David
Hello everyone.
9handed online 2-4 game that is pretty good, 4-5 looseys that donate money.
I'm 3 from UTG and find 88.
UTG folds, next to UTG limps, I limp, 5 people after me including the blinds limps.
Flop: As Qd 8s.
Wonderful flop but a bit dangerous. It's checked to me and I bet hoping an ace will raise me so I can really charge the flushdraws. No such luck, 3 people call behind me.
Turn: 5h, Board: As Qd 8s 5h
As blank as blanks get. I bet the same 3 people call.
River: Qs, Board: As Qd 8s 5h Qs
Now I get tricky. I think someone has made a flush and if I check I can get a juicy checkraise in, maybe trapping 2 or 3 players to call 2 big bets. (Someone might even bet his trip queens.)
Question 1: Correct?
Anyway, I check, two players behind me checks, and the last guy bets. Not exactly what I planned. Now I start thinking again, I could checkraise and go for one more bet, (both of the players between us would probably fold), or I could call hoping for overcalls. I just call, as do the two remaining players.
Question 2: Correct?
All comments appreciated.
Sincerly, Andreas
I think you were correct calling on the river,instead of raising. while I would be trully shocked to see a full house from the lead better, due to his complete lack of agression earlier in the hand, it is a possibility. Also if he does have a full then it probably beats yours(the only full he could have that you beat is fives full). So unless he would reraise you several times with the nut flush you are risking too much by raising for too little reward. By raising you are risking bets at an even money ratio, because you will drive out the other two. Either you are not going to get many bets out of the guy on your left, or he has you beat, wherehas the overcallers allow you to pick up two more bets for your one river call thus saving you two bets for the same size pot when you are beat.
this being said I think betting out would have been the play on the river so the flushes can raise you, your check says you fear that a flush was just made, and if you had raised it would have been a clear indication that you could beat a flush, or had just made a big one yourself, but a bet could mean you are just pushing a pair of aces or some such or a single queen, allowing others to raise you. remember the worse your players the less important tricking them is. on this hand betting out would have probably netted you three aditional bets, as the first two would have called your first bet and the other players raise, and of course it prevents the whole thing getting checked through.
I agree, I probably should have bet the river in hopes that a flush would raise me. But other then the nut flush I can't see any players raising me. (Unless they're complete morons.)
Sincerly, Andreas
Never underestimate the number of morons you'll find in a low-limit game. :)
J.
You should have bet out on the river unless you had a good read on a player beside you (difficult online). The flush may have then raised you and you could have 3 bet. Frequently the correct play is the simplest one.
4-8 game,
UTG is a very loose player, I haven't seen him miss a flop yet, he limps, everybody folds to me in the small blind, I look down and see A7o. Now if I was on the button, against two blinds, I would probably raise here, I thought that the hands I would be playing against would be two random hands, so I raised hoping the BB would fold and my Ace would stand up against UTG.
Both call, the flop is Q - 6 - 5 rainbow, I bet, BB folds, and UTG calls.
Turn is 2 no flush possibility, I check, UTG checks.
River is a 7, giving me second pair, I think my hand is good, and I think he will call me with a pair of 6s or 5s, I bet, he calls, I show my hand, and I think to prove that he doesn't always play junk, he shows me KT off.
A friend saw me play this hand, and he said that for me to play that hand that way I must be on stone cold tilt, I thought it was a good situation to get out of line. I would never play that hand against most UTG limpers, what do you all think?
Also, I was ahead all the way, would anyone have bet the turn?
Thanks, bt.
He decides to show you king high after calling the river to prove "he doesn't play junk" ? (:
I probably would have played it the same as you all the way.
In general, I think playing ace-little offsuit even out of the small blind is a bad idea against an early limper. It is too easy for you to be dominated and your poor position severely handicaps you throughout the hand. This is a good stealing hand from the button because you are playing against two random hands with position. But it is a bad idea to play against an early limper marked with a decent holding and you being out of position. Now all that being said, obviously you were playing the player here and guessed correctly.
I would bet the flop, check the turn, and bet the river as you did.
Jim and Dave, thanks for your responses.
The UTG player had turned over 64o and T6 suited the previous two rounds when he was under the gun (Winning both hands). When UTG had made hands he played them straight forwardly so I thought that if I ended up in trouble, I would be able to escape. The player in the BB had folded blind hands on previous occasions.
I completely agree that against most players who limp UTG you would not make this play. (There are players you would know that you were dominated by if they limped early.) But with this guy, I did'nt think that he was marked with good cards in that position, and I thought that the BB might give me credit for having more than I did when I raised an early position limper.
Even given that, I wouldn't have posted the hand if I was completely convinced that I took the right action.
I guess what I was thinking was that if everybody had folded except the BB and a player who had just sat down and posted, would you play this hand? If so, would you limp, or would you raise? If you decide to play, I think you need to raise because I like this alot better if I can play it headsup with the UTG player. I know that UTG won't fold until after the flop.
good luck, bt.
Here's a typical situation I see often. I have not yet found a good way to handle it.
I have KQ in early/middle position in a loose game. Not particularly passive/aggressive...raised 1 out of 4 times preflop let's say.
One limper in early position (mediocre player...plays way too much up front). I limp w/ KhQd. Player in late position raises (could be raising with anything group 1 or 2 and AQo). Big Blind calls, limper calls, I call. 4 players.
Flop comes Qs 9h 4s.
BB bets. Limper calls. What's the best move here? I call sometimes, raise usually. In this situation, let's assume I raise. Now, late player re-raises, BB calls, limper calls. Call or reraise or fold? I think this is one place I might be making a mistake. I call.
Next card is a Tc. BB and limper check to me. What do you do here?
Basically, I'm looking for advice on a flop like this (troublesome, but not horrible) and a turn like this (with some outs, but still in trouble). Looking for general advice, since I am leaking bad in this situation in all kinds of variant cases. Help please!
Mojay
In $3-6 I don't raise a "random" 1/4 times, it depends on the players. If weak/poor players have limped I will raise KQ every time. Even in $3-6 where rake/bad beat hurts, you still make plenty of profit by punishing habitual pre-flop callers with KQ.
However if some very tight players have limped (or those who frequently limp with monsters) then raising is bad news. The there's a chance that they might have you dominated, at least they probably have a pocket pair. Against these players I usually limp behind them and see what the action is like on the flop.
Anyways, so you've flopped top pair nice kicker. Raising the flop is a good idea I believe. I guess it depends on the players in the hand (say if the pre-flop raiser behind you only raises premium hands, then perhaps a raise isn't so good). So he reraises behind you. Calling for one measly small bet is good, you can improve. There are other small side benifits too (like picking up a gutshot on the turn in your case). Last week in $8-16 I check-raised a preflop raiser with KQ (Q-rag-rag flop) and he immediatly reraised. I called one more bet to see if I could improve, planning to fold the turn (he's fairly tight so I put him on AA or KK or AQ or better). To my surprise he chickened out and checked the turn. Turns out he must have been on tilt as he had AK so I dragged the pot. His comment after the hand was "he would have called me down anyways." Yeah, tough image helps too :)
In your situation, when it is checked to you on the turn, I think you can do anything. Checking is not a mistake since the preflop raiser has you beat (unless he is 3 betting with nothing to get a "free card", let him have it :) But also, against timid opponents you can bet since they typically will not raise the turn with one pair (that's if they will automatically bet when you check). Usually I check.
Also, occasionally I fold KQ, KJ, and AJ preflop against a tight preflop raiser (especially if the number of players are limited or it is a double raise) since with these hands you are usually dominated (trouble).
Just my thoughts...
Jim
Preflop: If the early limper is limping with weaker kings and queens and worse, you generally want to raise and isolate. You can make an exception when they constantly limp with any pair and most aces, raising with better hands and folding worse, and won't release either on the flop or turn after a ragged or single facecard flop. Another problem is when your other opponents perceive that you do this constantly, and start 3-betting you with eights and suchlike. In general, however, KQ, for all it's deficiencies, is a better hand than that of a loose limper, and you should raise for this reason.
Flop: I'd raise. You're ahead of most preflop raising hands and you're effectively dead only to the 4 QQ/99 hands he can have. When he 3-bets, obviously you're in trouble, but there's enough money in the pot to take off a card to beat his overpair or AQ. After the turn it depends on the size of the pot and the range of hands he'll 3-bet on the flop and bet on the turn. Unless I improve or he's extremely aggressive (especialy with AK), however, I'll usually give him credit for a better hand than top pair and check and fold.
Notice how not raising before the flop makes your job after the flop harder.
PP $2/4 games. Typically 4-6 players when limping. 2-3 players when an EP raises.
I am in late position. 3 limpers. What should I raise with? I play fairly well after the flop IMO, very aware of pot odds and outs, and amateurish at hand reading skills, but at least I am paying attention. Seems I am making the pot so huge when I raise that everybody always has the odds to go to the river. In contradiction, common sense dictates that raising adds +EV volume since I will win more than my share of hands with starting hands in the first 2 groups.
So, 1) Which hands should I raise with in late position in this fairly loose game? 2) When the flop comes rags w/ maybe a 2-flush, do I bet my overcards (AQ for example) because the pot is huge and I have position? 3) When I do bet my overcards and I am checkraised (say, on a 3s 5c 9s flop), what do I do now?
I've been experimenting with several approaches, and I find that many of my plays are backfiring, but I want to avoid being results-oriented since I have a small sample to review. All advice is appreciated.
Mojay
the amount of money you are losing by not knowing these things would be made up quickly by reading the correct material. good luck.
In a 3-6 table. Fairly typical loose passive.
I am in mid/late position w/ Ac,Jd.
Next to UTG (lady that played way too many hands about 50%-60%), 3 fold, I raise hoping to get a shorthanded pot, all fold to BB who re-raises(no reads on him), lady calls as do I.
Flop: Q,J,5 (Suits not important)
BB bets out, lady folds, I raise, BB re-raises, and I call.
Turn: 2 (Q,J,5,2)
BB bets out, I fold.
I think I might have been bullied in this situation because I am fairly young and BB presence at the table just seemed to be under-estimating me. I am really unsure of how I shoulda played this hand. All comments appreciated. Thanks.
Ganked
Fold sounds very good here. What does your opponent have?
AK, AQ, AA, KK, KQ, KJ are the most likely possibilities. You can't assume he's ultra-aggressive and raising you with an underpair like TT. So, you're very likely beat right now. And you're drawing real thin (5 outs to a KK and KQ, 3 outs to KJ, 2 outs to AA or AQ, 0 outs to QQ--runner, runner Aces required). You are dominated.
The only hand you beat is an AK, which has 7 outs on you (4 jacks and 3 kings). Unless you have reason to believe this player is a maniac, you have little choice. While there is always the exception, most LL players I have seen do not come over the top when they don't have top pair or better.
Mojay
I just have one thing to add to your play of this hand. You should have just called the flop. Why are you raising when most likely the only hand that he could have that you beat is AK? You should peal one off to see if you can catch. If you don't, fold on the turn.
You weren't bullied. If you routinely call this hand down, your going to lose money.
Peace
Goodie
I like your idea of raising before the flop on a steal move with a hand like A-Jo when you are first in. But the re-raise by any player had to make you think and slow down. Raising the flop was clearly wrong. What were you trying to gain by doing this? If he is the type of player that might re-raise out of position with a weak hand, you should have just called the flop to see what play he makes on the turn. He might check the turn then showing you his weakness. Even maniacs show there weakness sometimes. But if you folded here 95% of the time, you would probably be correct. TL
I'm trying to find out if I can regularly beat a not very tough 5/10 game - the only game in my city.
I've played a lot online and read and reread Slansky's first hold'em book and Mike Caro's Book of Tells.
I seem to be doing fairly well. I'm up almost $500 after four visits. I'm trying to play especially tight while I figure out if I can regularly beat this game. But the other night the only table open was short-handed, one strong tight aggressive player, one dangerous semi-maniac and another player who was a disaster. I quickly lost about $100. I saw very few flops. The blinds killed me, and I made a few expensive mistakes.
Before long the table filled up and I managed to leave about even.
It seems to me I don't know how to play short-handed. Any advice on how to learn without it costing me a lot of money? Any other observations?
Appreciate any help.
Short handed is a COMPLETELY different game than your standard 8-10 handed Hold'Em game. You will get KILLED if you don't change your playing style in short handed games.
The book you haven't read that you need to read is Hold'Em for Advanced Players. Besides fleshing out the concepts in the first book, it has a section dedicated on short handed play. Trust me, buy the book and read the short handed section. Play in this game again and you will save enough money to buy the book 5 times.
Mojay
Shorthanded play is difficult. I'm no expert but here's what I've found. The scenario you described should probably be avoided.
If you still want to beat the game you need to get the strong player of your back. Play back hard at him a couple of times and see if he backs of. You want to be playing against the maniac alone, without any other players ruinging your plans. Avoid playing in the same pots as the strong player, try just to play the maniac.
Against the maniac you should play rather meekly, let him think he can bully you around, call him down with mediocre holdings such as middle pair, bottom pair and similar. Even ace high might be good enough at times.
Be aware however, these games have a huge tiltinducing factor, and the swings can be brutal.
Sincerly, Andreas
I am confused by your post. How much have you played online? I would think that if you have played a lot online (500 hours +) you would not need to ask the question of whether you can beat the 5-10 game.
4 sessions at the table is not even a blip in determining if you can beat the game.
Playing super tight is often not a great strategy as the strong players will take advantage of you.
The HFAP short handed section is good. However, I think you should concentrate on your full table game and stay away from short-handed. If you can't, HFAP is a good survival guide.
As every one else said, short handed is a very different game and with your lack of shorthanded experience, I don't doubt that you suck at it very hard.
That said, the $100 you lost is absolutely nothing at shorthanded $5-10 and is completely, completely meaningless as to being an indicator of your skill level. If you are going to conclude from the game that you don't know how to play shorthanded, do so because you felt like you had no idea what you were doing and not because of your results.
The section in HFAP on shorthanded games is quite good. However, you're probably going to have to pay some tuition, and by that I mean more than 10 BB's. In fact, if a 10 BB downswing gets you squeamish, then poker in general is going to be quite a trial for you.
4-8, I'm in cut off before button. Everyone is in to me, all limp, I call with Js9s. Button raises. Blind calls and one after blind raises, all call, me too and button caps. 9 players, capped. This game was tight agressive with sporadic action. With all in, very unusual.
Flop is 2,8,J off suit. One off blind bets, all call. I call. Button raises, one off re-raises, no one drops, and button caps. I am sure two raisers have over pairs. Maybe both AA. Turn is 9. Two pair for me but scare board with J982. Checked coming to me ( one off is not betting). No flush possible. I am thinking that I have the best, but I doubt my betting will cause a fold, and many ways to lose. I an sure button will bet and maybe that gets a re-raise. Button bets. All call, to me. Now I am really feeling I have best. So I raise. All call. I am praying for a blank. River is 4. Hardly likely to help anyone. Check to me, I bet, two callers. JJ99 wins.
Some might feel that I sould have just bet the turn with two pair when checked to me. I was sure button would bet and then I could decide if to raise. If re-raised before me I know I would call, but less confident.
Comments?
only you being there can know what is going to happen on the turn with the betting but it worked out fine although i tend to bet in those spots as i hate to see it get checked around.
i would have folded before the flop. you had one limp bet in there and two strong raises to you with a likely cap pot. on the flop maybe it was a fold as well knowing it would again be capped and you would have to be lucky to win even if you caught perfect. try HFAP.
Ray,
Wouldn't the pot odds be there before and after the flop even though you had to put in four bets? With 9 people in, the odds have to be there, right? I'm just wondering because I would have played the hand exactly the way that Zen did. I would think that before the flop the straight and flush possibilities of J9s would make a call correct with so much in the pot already. And after the flop, I would think that the two-pair and trips possibilities would give you the odds with there still being 9 people in.
Is this faulty thinking?
Peace
Goodie
The problem is that your implied odds get ruined having to pay multiple bets to take a flop with these weak, speculative drawing hands. Sometimes you get caught up in the installment plan where you are calling one raise at a time so there is nothing you can do. But when you limp and then it gets raised and reraised back to you such that you are calling two more bets cold, you should consider folding. Yes, you are getting 9-to-1 immediate pot odds if everyone calls. But the chances of you flopping a flush draw for instance are about 7-to-1 against and then you have to pay additional money to make your hand. Once you make your hand it has to hold up as the best hand. This is a very unlikely parlay. With suited connectors you want to get in cheaply and have most of the money go into the pot when you catch a draw or make your hand not before you even get to see a flop.
The other problem is that if a lot of opponents are spending a lot of money to take a flop, the pot gets to be so big that many players will go all the way to the river with any hope of winning. The more players who are willing to go to the river, the harder it is to get your hand to hold up unless your draw is to the nuts. While it is true that suited connectors play better against many opponents than they do against a small number of opponents, having to pay a high price upfront really damages their profitability.
You fail to consider any dead outs.
Zen might even be drawing dead if both QT and AJ/KJ are out. Atleast there is a good chance that he is drawing to 3 outs since KJs or AJs is very likely to be out.
Even if he catches perfect (as he did) his hand is still vulnurable and can be easily overtaken by the apparent overpair.
Sincerly, Andreas
Pre-flop is fine. Obviously you could do without calling a double bet, but with 9 people in calling is fine.
On the flop you have a classic trap situation. The pot has gotten so big you lost track of why you called with J-9. You wanted a flush/str8 draw. Instead you got a pair/running str8 draw. The size of the pot precludes you from folding.
On the turn you have to bet and hope the player next to act raises. If 9 players see the river there's probably 30 cards that'll ruin your hand. If you get re-raised it's going to cost you an extra bet.
In a huge pot it's important to try and protect it. Some would argue that you should have raised the flop bet even though you knew you were at best 3rd, hoping to eliminate some players and free up an out or two for you.
Here's a hand I had a question on:
I raise preflop with AQs. The flop comes two clubs, my suit, and a Q high. I bet and everyone folds, except the player directly to my right. The turn is a blank. He checks, I bet. He calls. The river comes 9 of diamonds. He checks, I bet. He reraises. I'm pretty sure I'm beaten, but being curious, I call. He turns over pocket 9's, the spade and heart. He had exactly one out to beat me, and he did. Well, he had better odds than the lottery, so I wasn't to upset or anything.
I think this is common situation in low limit where someone is chasing. Is it correct to bet the river in this situation, with top pair, where a reraise can only mean I am beaten or a gutsy bluff. Or is it better to check and be content with the money already in the pot since they may have hit their hand?
Thanks in advance. sam
Bet every time and pick up that extra bet. You are not required to call a raise.
The only time I check is if the opponent has position and a check is more likely to induce a bluff than a bet will induce a call.
Yes, the call was only because he was a new player that just sat down and I didn't know how he played and what he played.
I bet here 100%, he can call you with a weaker queen, middle pair or (as was the case) a pocket pair.
If he raises you, well thoose are the breaks. I usually call, but I feel as if I'm calling to much on the river.
Sincerly, Andreas
I think betting the river here is a good play because you will get calls from KQ, JQ, QT and even worse hands depending on the game. Most of the time, your opponent drawing to his one outer will miss, but it's gotta happen sometimes. You lose 2BB when they hit, but you gain a bet many of the other times he misses.
You come out ahead on the river bet.
Your opponent probably put you on AK or a flush draw and thought he might win a showdown on the river.
I think the hand you describe is a situation where you should bet the river. Situations where you shouldn't is when the obvious draws hit. The 9d was not an obvious draw here.
Pretty loose and passive online 2-4 game.
I'm in the SB with T9 offsuit, 6 or 7 limpers to me and I decide to take the flop.
Flop: 9c 4c 5d.
Question: What now?
I check, it's checked to fairly loose (though not extremely so) middle player who bets, 2 callers to me.
Question: What now?
I fold.
Did I chicken out to easily? The way I see it is that I could easily be drawing to 3 outs. I might be drawing even slimmer if I'm up against a set.
(As it turns out the bettor had Q9 offsuit so it was a good fold.)
Any comments appreciated.
Sincerly, Andreas
I would have bet the flop to see where I'm at.
Regards, ME
With that many players I think folding here was correct. As it turns out it was. Obviously you had the odds to call before the flop. Probably something like 14 to 1. But you are looking for the staight, two pair, or trips. Anything less should be dumped. If you did not dump here you would have to raise, to thin the field and maybe steal the pot from Q,9. He might let you have it if he does not improve but all in all I think folding is the correct move. TL
It's important to know if you hold the Ten of Clubs. If you don't, your fold is probably correct. If you do, well I would suggest playing on. You are getting 11 to 1 on a call with your 5 outer (although it could easily be just 3). But it's a mistake to always think that you must only have 3 outs. The bettor does not necssarily have to have a 9 and if he does, he does not necessarily have to have a bigger kicker. You should also note that the two callers are probably on a draw or have hands worse than yours (i.e. middle pair etc.) as they would likely have raised with a 9 to limit the field.
BTW, if the two callers had in fact folded, you should raise rather than call so that you can limit the field.
If you do just call on the flop, don't just focus on hitting a Ten. I mean, if you hit a Ten, you will of course like it but keep alive to how the hand is being played out even if you don't hit a Ten. If the turn card is a blank and the original bettor now dogs it and a new guy bets, well you should raise. Or, if the turn card pairs the 4 and the original bettor bets and the other two guys fold, you now could have outs on the river for a chopped pot even if the other guy has a slightly better kicker than yours. Or perhaps, you can now checkraise and represent trips. The possibilities are endless...the point is that you should stay alive to the options at your disposal and not automatically wave the white flag if you don't catch a Ten (although you should also do that if the circumstances so dictate).
"I might be drawing even slimmer if I'm up against a set."
While this is true, I just point out that I just about never put a man on a set for a flop bet in an unraised pot. Subsequent actions may strongly point to the fact that he has a set. But the initial bet just tells me that in theory, he could have a set but that theoretical possibility is not going to sway my decision much.
In raised pots, I have much greater success putting guys on a set based solely on their initial flop bet i.e. by considering the texture of the flop, his position in relation to the preflop raiser and his position in relation to the button.
which is a better hand to have against the other, AQo or JJ, one on one hold em? thanks in advance!
eric
As a man who takes great pleasure in winning money, id definitely pick JJ. It will hold up over 50% of the time vs AQ AK or KQ.
JJ is about a 6-5 favorite against 2 unsuited overcards
Playing in a typically loose 1-4-8-8 game (blinds 1-2).
QJo, 2 off the button. 2 callers to me, I call $2, 2 more callers, SB calls, BB checks.
Flop comes Js 6d 3d. All check, I bet, and get 2 callers, one to my left and the SB.
Turn 4c. I bet, both call.
River Qd, making me 2 pair, but a flush on board. SB checks. Should I bet again here?
Bill
nt
As with most poker questions the correct answer is "It depends."
My instinct suggests to check and call. Diamonds coming in will likely deter players from calling your bet with many hands inferior to yours, and should either of your opponents have been drawing to diamonds, then you will get raised.
Now, if both opponents are obvious playing calling stations, who will only raise with flushes (so you can lay down without paying off), and will call you down with lone J or Q in spite of the suited board, then I would say bet.
One thing to consider in these situations is that players are more likely to check-raise made straights on the river, but bet out made flushes. The reason is that most players get scared when the third suited card hits the board, but often don't notice when some straight draw fills in, and hence are more likely to bet in the latter case. So, in this case, SB checking tends to deny that he has diamonds. But the fly in the ointment continues to be the player behind you....
The player behind me wanted any excuse to call, and paid me off several times during the session. He would probably call with a weaker queen, though he probably wouldn't call preflop with any queen. Against him alone I would always bet.
The player in the SB was very tight and raised when he had it and folded when he didn't. I felt that he was definitely on a draw, though I wasn't sure which. So I checked the hand, the player behind me checked as well, and the SB took down the pot with 4d8d. I am sure he was planning to check-raise, though sometimes these low limit players really fear the monster under the bed, and would just call.
Bill
You should always bet here in a small game. In fact, you should just about always bet here even if the flush card comes but doesn't give you two pair.
Well gang,
After a rough session (OK, not as bad as Jim Roy's, but that is another story...) I have three interesting hands/questions to post.
It's your average loose-passive $3/$6 game. A nice mix of weak players with some mediocre ones, not a lot of raising, etc.
PREFLOP
I'm on the button with Jh Jd. UTG straddles, and noting that she has only around $10 in front of her, I figure this for a likely all-in hand.
Four people call in front of me, and I just call, figuring straddler will raise, and I can cap. the "friendly neighbourhood maniac" (FNM) in the BB calls, straddler 3-bets right on cue, all call to me. As I'm preparing to raise, I note that FHM has chips in hand to raise, and figure I'll get even more camoflage, so I just call, FNM raises, straddler goes all-in, 2nd UTG now caps. All of us call.
6 players, 5 active, 29 sb in the pot.
FLOP: 6h 4h 2d
All check to me. I bet. All call.
5 active players, 34 sb = 17 bb in the pot.
TURN: Qh
Now the 2nd UTG player bets into me. Two players call. There is only the FHM to act behind me.
I have played with 2nd UTG before. I would have expected him to pound the pot with a hearts draw on the flop, so I'm almost inclined to believe that his turn bet is more likely to represent a queen than a flush. The two callers are also the sort who would raise a flush, so I have them on singleton heart draws. FNM is kind of an unknown, although his aggression is primarily preflop, toning down on later streets.
Although I do hold the J of hearts, I doubt that any flush I make with it will hold up any significant fraction of the time. On the other hand, it does mean that I have 2 outs to hit my jack, although a set won't necessarily win for me either.
I'm currently getting 20 to 1 on a call, but my call does not close the action.
What is your play? Results/comments to follow.
Dave
You said that you saw the FNM telegraphing his intent to raise earlier in the hand, I would definitely be looking left in your situation. With 20 BB in the pot, if FNM is going to call or fold, you definitely have a call here (if he is going to raise, you should fold). You have the Jh, so if you make a set it will not make someone else a flush, unless they already have it, which you said was unlikely. You are probably right in that your jack high flush will probably not hold up if a fourth heart comes, so I would only add a very small amount of value to your hand because of your flush draw, about the same as 2.1 outs vs. 2 outs. There is some chance that your hand is still best, but as you stated, it does not seem very likely. I would perhaps give the chance you are still ahead about the same value as one more out, which would effectively give you a three outer, at best. However, when you call a bet on the chance that your hand is best, you must be intending to call all the way to the river, which means effective odds are more important than immediate pot odds. Your EFFECTIVE odds here are somewhere in the neighborhood of 23:2, assuming it does not get raised on the turn or river.
I think this is a relatively difficult decision for you. What I would probably do is to call the turn and draw at the set, assuming that the FNM was not telegraphing any intentions of raising. However, if you think you will be raised, you should definitely fold. If you call and see the river, you will have another tough decision if you do not hit your set and a heart does not come. I would either call or fold, depending on the action. If you are the last one to act and there is a bet but no callers, I would call for the size of the pot. If there is a bet and several callers, it is unlikely they would all be betting and calling with less than a pair of queens, so you should fold.
Another more risky play, but quite possibly worth it, would be that if the player you suspect to have a pair of queens bets the river and all fold to you, you might consider a "sorta-bluff" raise. You would "sort-a" be bluffing, in that you are representing a much larger hand than you really have, but there is some chance that you are best (albeit a small one). The advantages of trying a bluff raise on the river here would be that the pot is large, so you only need it to work once in a while, plus, the way you have played the hand so far, it sure looks like you have been on a flush draw. You never showed aggression, except to bet the flop, which many players commonly do with a flush draw. If you had the nut flush, just calling the turn would have been believeable (even though raising would have been the better play). I would only try this if the bettor with the possible queens is the type who can make "big laydowns", like a queen in this case. It's a risky play that would not work very often, but with a large pot, sometimes you should make plays that you might not otherwise make in order to try and win it. Just a thought.
Dave in Cali
Well, in the absence of a strong tell from FNM, I decided to call. FNM just calls.
The river brought the Ts. 2nd UTG bets again, both players in front of me fold, I fold, FNM maniac calls.
2nd UTG won the side pot with Kh Qd, while FNM showed Ah Tc. The straddler won the main pot with black KK.
I like the fact that my reads were right, but was unsure about whether my call was perhaps overly optimistic. Make the odds I'm getting 30 to 1, and I call. Drawing to 2 questionable outs getting 20 to 1 and not closing the action ... hmmmm.
Now that I know who the players in question are, I'd agree with your assessment about 2nd UTG and his likely hand (a queen and not hearts) and consider only a jack an out on the turn, but that I need to hit my jack. Considering its a 22-1 shot to hit on the river, and there are about 17-18 BB in the pot, probably its muck time.
Yeah I was stuck $200 from the weak $4-8 and was run down $200 more from a couple $3-6 games. But I believed I played well and didn't lose my cool. Therefore, it was a good session.
I had a couple critical choices on the turn that went the wrong way.
Against the chinese girl that I had never remembered playing against I still think it was a close call. I limp in middle position with KsJs and the flop is rags with one spade. I call one bet from the girl, and the turn is a Jack. I consider check-raise but decide to bet out instead. She gives me the Twelve-Shot. I usually muck in this spot (almost the reason for betting out, so that one can fold to the raise). But the thought crosses my mind that I have just sat at the table (beside Mr. Shaw himself) and don't know how she plays, so I call her down. She shows me a set of 7's.
The thought crossed my mind after the hand that she had a neat appearance so she is probably only aggressive with near nuts (from Caro?). Combined with the betting pattern and the way she did it and the small pot, I should have bailed.
She proved this theory of betting strongly with near nuts as the night wound down and unfortunately I was the victim two more times.
The second time I limped in late with Ac Jd (I often raise weak players but decided not to this time. It is a J-rag-rag flop with two diamonds and it is checked to me so of course I bet. 3 or 4 people call, giving me the impression that diamonds are out there.
Turn is the Ad. To my surprise everyone checks to me, and I don't believe that with the players involved they would not bet, plus I have top two pair with a jack high diamond so I bet. Bahh, the girl raises! This surprised me. I call her down again with my "draw".
River is the Kd. This again surprised me as I thought it likely she had the nuts on the turn. I call her bet with second nuts and lose to Q-rag of diamonds. Ouch.
Third hand I have my first pocket pair above TT for the night: Aces. I don't remember exactly how it went, I believe it was 3 bet and capped before the flop? I remember the turn though, K-6-6-2 with everyone checking to me. I bet and get two callers, one is my nemesis and the other is a (somewhat) tight player. I'm quite sure my hand is best at this point as I put the girl on a K. I plan on betting the river.
However, river is another K. Girl's hand immediately reaches for chips, then she pauses, then she bets. Other player folds. I ponder and muck as I am very certain I'm beat (as the pot is very phat so I have to be pretty sure). She kindly shows KcQc to ease my doubts.
Oh well, can't win every day.
Jim
Ok guys, round two ...
{ding}
PREFLOP
I'm in the SB with Ad Kh. There are 4 limpers, and I just call. (From anywhere else, I raise AK, but in the small blind against a large field, I call and take a look at the flop before getting aggressive.)
6 players, 6 sb in the pot.
FLOP: Ac 7c 4c
I bet, BB raises, friendly neighbourhood maniac (FNM) cold-calls, rest fold. I call.
3 players, 12 sb = 6 bb in the pot.
TURN: 2d
I bet, BB raises, FNM cold-calls.
Your play?
Also, I'd like comments on the preflop limp, and on my choice of betting into the raiser again on the expensive street.
Results/comments to follow.
Dave
Preflop I am OK with the limp. Being badly out of position the whole hand makes seeing the flop first before showing aggression against a large field have more appeal. Obviously I would raise if I were suited, but since you were offsuit, I would have probably just called as well. Making the pot larger here does not help you very much, but by keeping it smaller you might force opponents into larger mistakes later. Also, if you flop top pair, you may have a better opportunity to check-raise than you would have if you had bet, possibly offering your opponents a chance to make a large mathematical error.
I think you played fine after the flop. I would bet the turn, but fold for the turn raise, you are probably against a small made flush. If you are ahead, you are not likely ahead by that much, but if you are behind you are drawing dead. However, many opponents will raise with a singleton large club here, so you cannot give them a free card. When you are raised a second time you know to get out.
Dave in Cali
This hand is one where I think I gave my opposition too much credit for higher thinking...
Having been raised twice, I read BB for a made flush and folded. The river brings the 8s. BB bets, FNM calls.
Both call "one pair." Argh! BB wins with As Qc.
Seems BB's thinking never went beyond the Neaderthal level of: "Me have ace. Me have big club. Me RAISE!"
I thought that it was unlikely that a thinking player would semi-bluff raise me twice in a row on a scary board.
So, against these simple-minded $3/$6 players, should I forget the above "fancy play" and simply check and call top pair all the way, assuming the fourth suited card does not come?
Whoa there, cowboy.
Let's not forget that the 'neanderthal' with the AQ blew off the best hand and went on to drag the pot. Just because he made you uncomfortable with his raise doesn't mean he played the hand poorly.
In fact, I like the way he played it, since most of the time the player behind him will fold for two cold on the turn, thereby leaving him heads up, in position, with either the best hand, the best hand, or both. If he gets three-bet on the turn, he can muck. Hell, unless I had a compelling reason to play it otherwise I would have played it the same way. I'd put you on a goofy A, since you were in the blind, and probably value bet the river against the loose player behind me.
Ok, I agree that "Neanderthal" was a little harsh. Cro-Magnon, perhaps ... just kidding {lol}.
However, as I was writing the hand down afterwards (which maybe I shouldn't have done at the table), BB gave me his explanation of why he played it that way. My synopsis in the above post is pretty much his thinking. He hadn't put me on a hand ... any hand ... but was surprised when I folded the turn, because "You usually don't bet without something big." Gee, thanks for noticing ... but you didn't stop to think that I might have you beat to bet into you again?
Now, I agree that by not raising preflop, I have not defined my hand. So it is reasonable that BB thought his hand was boss.
However, I've tried looking at it from the other side of the fence. While against some opponents it might have some merit, I'm not entirely convinced. Perhaps I'm one of those opponents against whom the play may be correct, however.
My concern is basically: why pay two bets, expecting to lay down to three when you are probably beat, when you can simply call on both streets and find out for sure for the same price. I don't think you sacrifice all that much EV, since you still have the river to extract an extra bet when you hit.
Besides, you do hold the second nut draw. Why destroy the price you are getting to draw by risking both a reraise and that having to pay two bets cold on the expensive street will convince the third player in the hand that drawing to his 3c might not be good?
The funny thing is, if this raise were to have come from one of the better players at the table, I may actually pay off, assuming the fourth suited card does not come, simply because I'd be willing to credit them with the ability to make a tricky play. Since this particular player was so poor, however, I figured that given his raise on the turn in a protected pot, it was very likely that I was drawing dead against a made hand, and could safely muck, saving a bet.
I wonder whether this is one of those times when the poor player and the expert player make the same play, albeit for entirely different reasons/motivations.
Thank you very much for the response though. I am still pissed off at myself for getting outplayed by a pretty poor player, and I guess it shows.
Cheers,
Dave
I think you trapped yourself in this pot by not raising preflop. I can't say I would have played it any differently from his perspective, and my thinking would have been primarily cro-magnon like.
"He didnt raise preflop, so he can't have that big a hand. I have top pair and a big draw. I like my hand, either I am way ahead or I have outs to become ahead".
By not raising preflop, you don't define your hand, so he has no real reason to expect that he's behind. The worst he probably thinks is that you have a goofy two pair, in which case he isn't that big a dog anyways with all the clubs and all the queens to help him. Even when you muck (and are ahead), you are still only a 3-1 favorite (he has 12 outs to improve).
"why pay two bets, expecting to lay down to three when you are probably beat, when you can simply call on both streets and find out for sure for the same price." The answer is clearly because you might get a better hand to fold, as in what happened here. it costs two bets to go to the river, but it also costs two bets to have the additional chance of having the best hand fold, which might sway that into a better play than calling would be.
Don't worry about "getting outplayed by a poor player", sometimes it appears to be this way when it actually is not. Poor players can be very hard to read, which means that ultimately you will make some mistakes against them, mostly because you can't read them!
Dave in Cali
Dave-
I, too, am sorry if I came off like an A-hole. It just seemed to me like your opponent played his hand fairly well.
While his play wasn't a 'no brainer', I think it has merit for three reasons.
1) You would like to get rid of the guy behind you (if you're the guy with AQ), so that a) he doesn't hit two pair or trips on the river, and b)so you have the option of checking down the river if you don't improve.
2) By raising, you'll end up netting more money on your hand when you do improve on the river, which will happen roughly 30% of the time.
3) In any game smaller than 15-30 you'll get paid off the whole way by an inferior ace, so you might as well get it in now.
Just a thought,
Guy
I don't think you played badly, despite the result. You will lose more than you will ever gain if you called to the end in that exact situation over a million trials. Sometimes people make surprising plays that don't make much sense to you, but then again, you are thinking, so what they do might not involve such advanced biological functions as thought. So you lost the pot, I still don't think that you made a bad decision. Keep this in mind against that same player next time though, and consider reraising the flop, check-raising the turn, or perhaps just calling her down if there is any doubt.
Dave in Cali
This has happened often enough lately to cause me to ask for some general help on the subject. I am curious about how the readers procede when they enter a pot with a medium pair such as 7's, 8's, or 9's? and flop an over pair? How does one procede in a low limit enviroment where few will drop for a single bet on the flop and because of the board (all low cards make for more straight draws) and the large number of overcards left in the deck make the next card very likely to ruin your hand even though it may be the best at this time and even have any individual player at the table drawing very slim. any help would be appreciated.
If you can raise and drive some players out, you should. you are a favorite at this point, at least against individual players with only overcards or draws, and you want to give people an opportunity to drop. however, say you 88 and flop an overpair on the button and the SB bets and six people call to you. Raising here is not going to help you much, and as you stated, the next card is likely to ruin your hand. I would call and see what the turn brings, then possibly raise at that time. Weak overpairs are difficult to play, but even harder in very loose games. flopping an overpair with nines or lower is not even close to the same as flopping a set, basically it is worth about the same as a typical middle pair, except you have fewer outs.
Dave in Cali
All right, after posting a couple of the hands I'd rather forget, I have to post this one. This was the pot of the night for me, leaving me only slightly dented at the end of the session.
The play is fairly straightforward, but the raise on the turn is perhaps kind of interesting, so I'll post it here.
PREFLOP
I'm on the button with Ah Kh. 6 limp, I raise, all call.
9 players, 18 sb in the pot.
FLOP: As Kc 6h
All check to me. I bet, 2 call, UTG check raises me. (The impudence!) 2 cold call, I 3-bet ... my friend the "friendly neighbourhood maniac" (FNM) now caps. UTG calls, next folds, next calls, I call.
4 players, 36 sb = 18 bb in the pot.
TURN: Ks
FNM and UTG check. Next player, an older, rockish gentleman bets. He likely hit his trips.
Now, I have a tight, and I hold "all the good cards." If I smooth call, I likely get calls from FNM and UTG. However, the flop check-raise from UTG likely indicates a big ace. If the case ace were to fall on the river, I'd end up splitting this pot. If I raise, I certainly get a call from the rock with trips, and may even get FNM to cold-call with a hopeless hand. But I give UTG a chance to fold her ace (and she's a good enough player to lay down a good but clearly beaten hand.)
So I raised. Unfortunately FNM folded after much deliberation. Fortunately, as it turns out, UTG folded. The rock called.
2 players, 22 bb in the pot.
RIVER: Ad
I literally could see UTG shudder in her seat. I bet and am paid off. I rake in a 24 bb pot, which I likely would have had to split with UTG's AQ (she claimed) had I gotten greedy and tried to slowplay on the turn.
Ok ... Ok ... I'm posting this just to give myself a chance to gloat and feel brilliant despite a losing session. All the same, any comments/feedback would be greatly appreciated.
Dave
I don't mean to sound like I don't believe you, but you were honestly thinking that you wanted utg to fold on the turn with her having 1 out to split the pot? You would have gained two more BB if you had just called the turn and raised the river, assuming that the 46-1 shot didn't come in for utg. There aren't many situations that slowplaying is corect on the turn, but this is one of them. The most outs that any of your three opponents could have is one to split the pot.
Call the turn and raise the river.
Peace
Goodie
If you knew for sure that this person had an ace, and they knew what your hand was, you should want them to call. That's because they are only drawing to half the pot. Thus, instead of getting 22-to-1 immediate pot odds, they are only getting half that. Given that two aces are locked up -- yours and the board, plus the one in their hand, they only have one out. You should have called and let her play.
I have no problem with the turn raise. By the reasoning you presented, you may or may not have stood to win a bigger pot by slowplaying, but when you considered the chance of splitting the pot, you opted for the raise. Any time you raise to protect your interest in the pot, especially in a loose game, you cannot be making a mistake very often, and even IF you are, it cannot be a very large one.
However, in this instance, your hand was strong enough to slowplay, and your EV would have probably been higher in the end had you waited till the river to make your move. In reality, the chance of splitting here would not affect your EV very much, a loss of half the pot once in fourty-six times (1/46*12=0.26BB) is relatively miniscule. If you knew you would get paid off two big bets (one on the turn and one on the river) by the player with the ace if you did NOT raise, then you would have done better by calling. Keep in mind here that the only hands that can hurt you are aces full to tie (one out to half the pot), pocket aces (which there is no reason to believe is against you), a royal flush (another one outer) or quad sixes (again, one out). That means that no one can have more than one out against you here, and sometimes that's only to half the pot. In this case, I would gladly let them all draw against me, hoping to get in a raise on the river. This is more appealing since you are last to act, and it is highly likely the rock with trip kings will bet again. Result of the river aside, I would probably have slowplayed this one, but again, I don't think your decision was a bad one.
Dave in Cali
Hi Guys,
After a good night's rest, I have to admit that I agree with you that slowplaying is likely the better way to go ... allowing the players behind me an opportunity to make mistakes and play bad poker, rather than raising and ultimately forcing them to play correctly.
On the other hand, from a psychological standpoint, on that particular night, raising to knock the player off the pot and save it all for myself was the turning point in that session. Up to that point, on top of the standard suckouts, it seemed that a disproportionate number of the pots I did win were split with some idiot who stuck in on a very long draw and caught perfect perfect to tie me.
So while not ultimately the highest +EV play on the turn, on that night, the hand as I played it restored some of my confidence, which probably had good repercussions on the rest of my play that night.
But next time I will slowplay.
Dave
I agree that you would like the lady to call with her 1 outer for $6 (profit of $4? + higher variance) but I don't think a turn slowplay is any good.
Remember guys this is $3-6 and the players are poor. The pot is getting phat, and some of these players will cold call anything. They don't care nor remember if Dave hasn't ever shown down a hand weaker than AJs when not in his big blind. They are going to call with draws anyways, and THE TURN IS THE ONLY PLACE TO MAKE THE CASH. When they miss their draws they will chuck, when they hit you will still have made more money by raising the turn. I would not be surprised if the lady even cold called with her AQ.
I agree with the raise Dave although I'm glad Mason pointed out that getting rid of the lady was not why it was good. Hey, I am a fan of primitive thinking in $3-6. "Me have good hand, me raise." Simplicity, it works :)
Make it a game with tighter players and I will think about smooth-calling. Still though, if I'm in the situation against reasonably intelligent opponents, and I raise before the flop, then cap a flop of AK-rag, then a K comes on the turn, then a weak player bets into me, who the hell am I expecting to fool by smooth-calling? How can they call that bet? Why not raise, then they may think you're up tricks and call anyways? I would possibly put somebody on a set on the flop plus somebody else with a king, you'll get their action anyways. Although against some players a smooth-call would suck them in so sometimes it's better.
Smooth-calling just isn't my style, maybe wih quads, but only on my bad days :)
Jim
As I showed in my original response, letting her call with AQ and her 1 outer only costs him 0.26 BB, which means he profits about 4.50 per trial of letting her call one bet, and much more so if she calls again on the river.
However, you do have some good points in your post, and as I stated, I don't necessarily think he played BADLY by raising, especially given the propensity of low limit players to call, call, call, even when they are obviously beaten.
Dave in Cali
Same 1-4-8-8 game as in my previous post, very loose, and full of calling stations.
I have JJ in mid position 3 callers to me. I vaguely recall something about JJ playing its worst with 4-5 players, so I just call the $2 blind. There are several callers behind me, including the SB. The BB raps.
Flop: 6 5 3 rainbow.
SB bets out, and everyone calls to me (4 players). I have NO IDEA where I am in this hand. I gotta figure I'm behind, but I'm not sure. I call, but I'm thinking now that either a raise or a fold would have been the better play. Everybody else mucks.
Turn is another 3, putting 4 suits on board. Now the SB checks, and I'm thinking uh-oh. The BB, a tight, crotchedy old man, bets, so I know at the very least he has trips. One caller to me, so with the SB left to act, I fold.
What do you think of my 3 plays here?
Bill
Raise preflop
Raise the flop
Raise the turn
If you didn't fold the winner (and the winner by FAR), I'd be shocked.
Winner (SB) showed down 63o for the boat.
This was the worst hand I've played, certainly for a long while. I have no idea what turned me into weak tight for that hand, but that is certainly what happened. The best thing was the jack that fell on the river.
(And yes, I already knew the answer to my own question.)
BTW, Sugar Teddy? I don't get it. I certainly was a sugar daddy for that hand, if that's what you meant.
Bill
In the poker million, playing 3 or 4 handed, "Sugar" Teddy Tuil folded JJ preflop against a short stacked preflop raiser, to the shock of the announcers. It was later discovered that Teddy feels that JJ is his "unlucky hand".
Sadly, my play couldn't even be chalked up to superstition :)
definitely a pre-flop raise may have been in order. you just might have folded that 3-6, but perhaps not, and had you taken the hand further, you would be glad if he didn't because he'd for sure pay you off, if not raise. if you have an overpair to a very low straight flop, you probably have the best hand, the higher the better. i wouldn't doubt you had the best hand in this situation. so definitely raise on the flop. turn, still raise, and if you get re-raised, you are definitely getting the odds (immediate and implied) for drawing to the 3rd jack, plus you can be pretty sure the guy who raised you has a 3 at least. on the river, if you are early to act, you should bet. a check-raise would probably still get a call, but a bet would probably get raised, and then you can re-raise. on the river bet and raise for value and don't try deception, it won't work and it won't matter. your best deception is to bet out, because the 3-6 boat isn't gonna care if you bet out, especially if you raise him on the turn. he is going to expect it almost, and will probably throw in a raise. if you are in late position, same thing, bet if its checked to you, and raise and reraise until you can't. the guy can't beat you unless you had pocket 3's, which he would have shown a little more strength with on the flop before the second one cam on the turn. more aggressive all around, and not giving up on the turn when you have decent odds facing you for hitting that Jack.
Since the blinds are $1 and $2, a preflop raise will generally clear out some of the limpers, who came in for $2. Raise it!!
I'm confused about what the hell a 1-4-8-8 game even is? What is the betting structure?
Here's another question. In a $1-$20-$40 game, would you raise before the flop?
1-4-8-8 is a spread limit game. The blinds are 1-2, and bets and raises can be from 1-4 preflop and on the flop, and from 1-8 on the turn and river. Basically, the game plays like a 4-8 with 1/2 blinds, though occasionally people will make smaller bets.
The games are usually so loose that a raise only barely cuts down the field. 8 handed for a raise is not uncommon. In a 1-20-40, you'd be risking a lot to win a little, sorta like raising all in preflop in a NL tourney when the blinds are small. Well, not that bad, but you get the idea.
Bill
In a typical limit game, with standard structure, I would agree with your call before the flop. However, this is 1-4-8-8, and if you raise the 2$ blind by 4$ more, you may drop some players, even possibly someone who already limped. I think that you made a mistake by not raising BTF in THIS structure.
Next, on the flop, you flopped an overpair to a board of 653rainbow. THEN, you assumed "I gotta figure I'm behind, but I'm not sure", BAD assumption. What kind of flop were you hoping for with a big pocket pair anyway? Not raising here was bad poker.
Once the turn comes, I suppose folding was OK. However, you had two chances to raise the crotchety old man in the BB out of the pot, and you didn't do it either time. Chances are that since he was in the BB, he would have folded for a raise BTF. By this time, it is not surprising that you are behind, having given up two opportunities to raise weak hands out of the pot.
Dave in Cali
Another reason to raise the flop (besides the obvious, the strength of your hand) is that you know that there are draws against you. In a low limit game, there are going to be 4's, 7's and 2's out, and on this flop, they're going to stick around to try to make their straight. You're beating them right now. Make them pay to get there.
3-6 at Taj. I'm in the big blind with AK offsuit. UTG comes out raising, fold to MP player who three bets. All fold (including the SB) to me and I call, UTG caps. We all call. Should I have capped? Would anyone fold here, I think I gotta see the flop. 3 players, $37 in the pot. Flop comes 7-6-2 rainbow. I check (should I have bet?), UTG bets, MP calls, I call. Turn is an offsuit 10. I suddenly get the feeling I have the best hand here and bet (preparing to fold if raised). UTG laments that I have to have a pair and folds, as does the MP player. UTG tells me he mucked AK. Comments?
Good move AND a bit of a lucky break! Nothing wrong with either.
I would do play the same way if my opponents were routinely 3 and 4-betting preflop with hands like AJ, Axs, and Kxs.
I think if you check the turn, you have problems calling a bet and you are correct that anyone raises and you fold.
Great bet on the turn, you really found out where you were on that one! The players behind you on overcards have to think you at least have a pair, especially after calling all the heat preflop and on the flop.
So what do you do if someone calls you on the turn? Would you have bet the river?
I have just recently seen "Winning Low Limit Hold Em" by Lee Jones at a local bookstore. Is this a good book to read if you have not read it yet???
Ganked
Yes. It is a good book for someone new to the game who will be playing strictly low limit poker ($4-$8 and below). It is easy to read and presents a simple but effective strategy for beating these little games which are spread all over the country. I recommend you play at this level for a few hundred hours before moving up into a middle limit game ($10-$20 through $20-$40).
In my opinion, Lee Jones has the best introductory hold'em book. I read the book before I played a hand of hold'em, and it helped immensely. Jones, unlike Sklansky & Malmuth, can communicate a concept to a general audience. I would have never stuck around long enough to become a decent middle limit player without Jones' help.
That said, I wouldn't even crack Jones' book open now. The book is very well written, but there are some strategic errors (such as undervaluing small pairs and overvaluing unsuited connectors). Once you have played a while, you should read Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players and The Theory of Poker. These books have excellent advice, but you need playing experience before they make sense. The only other two books I think are worth getting are the Real Poker by Roy Cooke and Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney.
I also agree that Inside the Poker Mind by Feeney is worth reading. Certainly HPFAP and TOP are necessities for any player regardless of limit.
Rahul
I can't recommed a book where the author seems lost on intermmediate concepts. But I suppose if you're just starting out, it's betting than nothing. I think reading TOP a few times followed by HPFAP would serve you better.
It has some good stuff, especially the advice on how to conduct yourself in a public cardroom. However, for stronger strategy advice, the best first book for beginners is holdem poker by DS, IMO. The place to follow up is holdem poker for advanced players, 21st century edition, by MM and DS. Pay special attention to the loose games section, as you will probably be starting off in low limit games, which tend to be very loose. You will find that some of the most knowledgeable people on this forum will agree.
Dave in Cali
I think it is an awesome book. I read Sklansky's books before Lee Jone's.
The thing I find that Jones did much better than Sklansky is the section on post-flop play. He organizes it wonderfully into categories like:
i) what to do with top pair and top kicker ii) what to do with top pair medium kicker iii) middle/bottom pair iv) overcards v) three of a kind etc. etc.
I found in Sklansky i had to dig through the book to find the relevant post flop strategy discussion
the best book i've read so far on post flop play!
JM
I was criticized for this one, so lets see how it holds up to the forum.
Weekday, 6-12. Game is somewhat aggressive, somewhat tight, but not enough to make it too difficult.
Early position (EP) comes in for a raise. Middle position (MP) calls the raise. I am in the cutoff, and 3-bet with QQ. Both blinds fold. EP four bets, MP calls 2 cold, I call.
FLOP: A 9 8 rainbow. EP bets, MP folds, I raise, EP 3-bets, I call.
TURN: T [A 9 8] EP bets, I call
RIVER J [A 9 8 T] EP bets, I raise, EP calls.
Of course my straight wins, EP does not show his cards, but claims to have had 99.
You're there on the turn, but you probably took too much the worst of it on the flop.
D. Andrew,
Ummm...yeah... I have to agree with the criticism here. You've got to give EP credit for a good hand here. I think you have to give this one up on the flop, EP can have way too many hands that can beat yours at this point.
I won't deny that you won the pot, good for you :) However, I think many of my fellow posters will see this as a perfect example of what not to do.
That's my 2 cents. Best wishes. Mike
Are you suggesting it is correct to fold after a flop bet or after the reraise? If the former, I think you are giving up too easily and would stand to lose too much when people raise and bet into on the flop knowing you might fold a 3 bet hand when one overcard hits. This is a 6-12 frequented by some excellent players, not some tourist 3-6.
Once you do raise (I think correctly) and he pops it there are 18 small bets in the pot. Certainly enough to take one off. I am only laying down here if I am absolutely certain that I am up against AA. Of course, folding on the turn is almost mandatory if I don't get any help and he bets again.
KJS
KJS
KJS,
Yeah, I think to fold after he bets out on the flop is very weak. I didn't think about the 2 possible places to fold. To clarify, I believe you gotta think about folding after his 3 bet on the flop. Maniac, loose-aggressive, whatever you want to classify him as, he's put in 7 small bets already and it's only going to get more expensive if you're 2nd best. Unless he's just a total action buff, I've gotta credit him for something that beats QQ.
As I stated before, there's just too many hands that he could have that beats QQ. Let's suppose that you are trailing after the flop (don't assume he has a set of 9s, just trailing). You're 22:1 to catch the set on the turn with 18 small bets in the pot. You can pick up a gutshot on the turn, but that might just tie you on to a loser more times often than not. For your draw to work, you have to catch perfect twice to win. You're putting money in with the worst of it.
Don't get me wrong, I like it when a good thing materializes that lets me stack a nice pot. I'm certainly not faulting D for his choice of play, but what happens if the cards don't fall exactly as they did? What then? I think because we knew the results beforehand that we're putting the cart before the horse.
For example, let's look at these, then see what you would do with QQ on the turn if:
S1) Turn is a complete blank (2-7) and EP bets again?
I won't put that EP checks because based on his
manner of play there's no way he would.
S2) Turn is an 8 and EP bets again?
S3) Turn is an 8 and EP checks?
S4) Turn is a K and EP bets?
S5) Turn is another A and EP bets?
S6) Turn is another A and EP checks?
S7) Turn is a 10 and ties you on, then the river is a
blank?
Think about these situations and what you would honestly do given the hypothesis that you are trailing after the flop. Maybe I should have started a different thread, but I look forward to your response and welcome others as well.
Food for thought. Best wishes. Mike
KJS,
Last point that I forgot to post, for the total number of turn and river card combinations, there are very few that will turn QQ into a winner and lots that will make it a loser.
I won't do the actual math, but if you want extra credit, show me the math assuming EP has pocket 9s and I'll give you an 'attaboy'. :)
Mike
While not defending my play (as I am still unsure) let me state that EP will bet any holding that he 4-bet. It is very rare to see someone not bet in this situation. With 14 SB in the pot and a chance to still have the best hand, I think that I can at least see the turn. Of course, if EP has AA a fold is clear.
Ok I suppose I like to stir up trouble but I'm going to take the other side of the fence again :) Here's what I believe is running through your head during the hand...
Note, by the way (EP) played and your responses to him, I'm guessing that you could replace (EP) with (MANIAC). True?
I was surprised that you raised him on the flop. I'm guessing you believed there was a good chance this loose player did not have an Ace, perhaps a medium pocket pair?
So you call his reraise with position knowing (hoping?)he would not play AA this way. You obtain 6 outs on the turn for a nice hand and you are also not sure if (MANIAC) has you beat. Then you spike on the river.
Then he bets into you on a board of JT98, and still calls your river-raise (BTW good position=extra bet).
It sounds like this guy juices up his play to get more action. You gave it to him. Be careful what you wish for :)
Jim
Note, by the way (EP) played and your responses to him, I'm guessing that you could replace (EP) with (MANIAC). True?
I would not classify him as a maniac, but he was very aggresive preflop.
I was surprised that you raised him on the flop. I'm guessing you believed there was a good chance this loose player did not have an Ace, perhaps a medium pocket pair?
I believed he would lay down KK (figuring me for AK), which I felt was his most likely holding. Also, keep in mind, he would always bet the flop after 4-betting preflop. At present time, I think calling may be a better play, but am quite unsure.
So you call his reraise with position knowing (hoping?)he would not play AA this way. You obtain 6 outs on the turn for a nice hand and you are also not sure if (MANIAC) has you beat. Then you spike on the river.
Yes, thats about right. After he 3-bets on the flop, I am confused about his hand, but feel confident that he does not have AA as he would smooth call my raise since I am drawing virtually dead. Once I exclude AA, I have an easy call on the flop and turn. BTW, I really have no idea as to what his holding may be, but really don't care as long as it is not AA.
Then he bets into you on a board of JT98, and still calls your river-raise (BTW good position=extra bet).
He believes I have AK, and is safe betting his set. And yes, my position gained me an extra bet, which I did not focus on until you mentioned it.
ok, i gotta say something here. on the flop, perhaps you were beaten. perhaps. now you knew that (EP) was a bit loose-aggressive, so you didn't give him credit for AA, but if you couldn't give him credit for AA then how could you give him credit for 99? i mean, it surely isn't a 4-better preflop (but he is LooseAggressive), and he is going to bet no matter what in the flop, so of course you gotta raise him if you think you might have the best hand. however, best hand is debatable with an A on board. even if he didn't have one, it's probably out there. probably. but with the pot odds you are getting to draw to a J or a Q (assuming you don't have the best hand now, but will if you hit one of those 2 cards.) then why not pop him one time on the flop to see what happens. if you hit, he is loose-aggressive, pot committed, and probably has a strong hand if your queens weren't good, and you needed to hit the set or the straight to improve to the best, so you are probably going to get paid off in the end if you hit, plus he might even be dumb enough to re-raise you, who knows?
What's wrong with just calling?
Which play makes more money vs a loose aggressive? What about just calling him meekly and let him bluff away (and save money if he has you beat). Why raise out a worse hand (or give too much action to a better hand)?
I know it is a loose-passive strategy (which seems to be a sin around here) but occasionally that is what brings home the bacon in terms of EV for certain situations.
D.
I like all your plays fine.
Don't know much about EP, but I think a flop raise is fine if he would check with top set and is the "bet no matter what since I raised pre-flop type". You need to find out where he is at. If he is an umimaginative rock, I might consider folding. Once he reraises, I would call and be prepared to fold on the turn.
But...there is 10 big bets when you pick up your gutshot so you are correct to be in there.
I think you played well and got lucky. A winning combination! If he did indeed have 99 (which I doubt) he is a fool for 4 betting pre-flop and stands to lose pretty often when better starting hands beat him.
KJS
KJS,
At the time, I felt my play was fine, but am now starting to doubt it. I may have been better off calling the flop to see what he does on the turn. EP's 3 betting only confused me more. Not really sure.
I believe that he had 99, as his play would make some sense, although I am suprised that he would 4-bet preflop and would not smooth call the flop raise and try to check raise the turn (putting me on AK). He may very well have been trying to blow me off the pot with JJ or something.
D,
I can't think of a good reason to just call. I am curious what yours are.
If you call and he bets again on the turn, what is your plan?
IMO, a 4 bettor will always bet the flop. When called they will most often bet the turn as well, trying to bluff someone out or take them for a ride if they have a great hand. I don't think he is going to try for a checkraise because you have not shown any guarantee you will bet your own hand. Even if he has JJ he is most likely going to bet one more time, hoping you will laydown QQ. So you call and he bets again, now what? You really don't have any more information about the strength of his hand. Do you raise on the more expensive street to find out? Do you shrug and just call again? (Of course in this case you are not folding due to your outs and the size of the pot).
If you just call and he checks on the turn, what is your plan?
Perhaps you take the free card and hope to hit your draws (str8 and set). But if you do and miss you are going to get bet into on the river. Will you call? Perhaps that is a prudent way to play this particular hand. Alternatively, he checks and you think you can buy the pot because now he is showing weakness. So you bet. What if he checkraises? You have good odds to call but you have invested 2 big bets on what is probably only a straight draw. The third option is that he checks and calls you, perhaps thinking you have AK but hoping you have QQ. Now you are going to a showdown with a hand that can only beat JJ. I suppose you can check it through on the river and hope you win.
I have now convinced myself that you can probably save a few bets if you are beat by just calling but give yourself no reasonable chance to win the pot with a second best hand. This is one of the reasons that position is so important in HE, and I think you are giving up too much by not taking advantage of it in this case. I stand by raising the flop but I do want you to convince me I may be wrong.
KJS
Hi. I am a low limit player, 3-6us at the moment, who is starved of Hold 'em action in Australia. They don't play it at the casino, and the nearest state (8.5 hours drive) has a 10% rake. I am a winning player, and on line am up 1500us over about 300 hours. Not a huge rate, but I am a rock.
The reason I am posting is to hear from players first hand at what their advice would be to me flying to Vegas for a 3-4 week poker trip. I would not plan to win a hell of a lot of money, just wondering where are the best places to play, the typical no. of games on a weeknight, the action, standard of players, tipping the dealer etc. All I have ever played is homegames with mates and online PP Hold 'em.
Would I be in for a shock, or could I expect to win my 1bb per hour? How much is the cheapest accomodation you can find in Vegas? Do casinos have cheap food? Is Vegas where I want to go, or are there better places to play poker at? Are they near Vegas?
I would really appreciate any replies posted or e-mailed to me at the above address. (If we don't want to cliog up the channel).
Perhaps we could meet up in Vegas for some home game action? :D
Thanking you in advance.
you can probably expect to win less b/c of the 10% rake in vegas at most places and the fewer # of hands/hour. the other problem is that there are jackpots at most places, taking an extra $1 out of the pot each hand.
competition-wise, i couldn't say if vegas would be easier or harder than online. i'll leave that info. for someone else.
wanna know about poker rooms? there are too many to count...maybe some locals can tell you where the best Low Limit games can be found.
Mojay
The best low limit games are at the Mirage (3-6) and Bellagio (4-8). I've heard good things about the Exalibur also but I haven't played there yet.
With most of your experience being online you might find it a bit more stressful playing live, hiding and looking for tells.. fumbling around with chips etc. :) Fortunately most of the low limit players are not really tuned in to the other players at the table... so probably not many will notice.
I'm sure you will have a fun time in Vegas.. it's quite a remarkable sight when you first see it.
I have played live quite a bit when I travelled interstate. Like 19 hours a day and 15 the next. This sort of scenarion for a few weeks. I don't gve away tells as far as I know, I am a rock in expression as well as betting. :D
I am really interested in accomodation. Is it >30us night? What is the rock bottom price I can get? And do all places have rakes/jackpots as high as this?
I am really interested in accomodation. Is it >30us night? What is the rock bottom price I can get? And do all places have rakes/jackpots as high as this?
Mirage will run $175 a night, Bellagio is over $200. I know the Mirage has a "poker rate" if you log 10 hrs of play per day, which is around $70 a night. You can always book a room at a "budget suite" which runs $180 per week =)
As for jackpots, neither the Bellagio or Mirage have them. Excalibur does, and some of the other card rooms do. (Boulder station currently has a $50,000 bad beat jackpot going)
Mirage will give you a poker rate, I believe the number to get the details is 1-800-77poker.
The rake at the Mirage is 7% up to $3 if I remember correctly. The low limit action at the Mirage is wonderful. There are always a lot of occasional players in the games, just trying out a different gambling experience. I find that its a lot softer game than either PP or in my local cardroom.
GOOD LUCK, HAVE FUN, bt.
There are a lot of places cheaper to stay than Mirage and Bellagio, close enough so you can play there with no problem. Imperial Palace has good rates, and is close to the middle of the strip. A travel agent should be able to check on rates and specials for you.
Bellagio usually has a great 4/8 game. Mirage has a lot of local rocks at the low limits during the day, but sometimes the games are good. The Orleans has a lot of games, and also a jackpot. The action is sometimes good because of the jackpot.
If you want $30 a night, try Motel 6 or Super 8. The problem is, you'll have to take a cab to the strip. Some strip hotels have $59 a night rates during the week. Holiday Inn Boardwalk, Imperial Palace, Casino Royal, Circus Circus (ugh), Frontier, Barbary Coast are a few of those. On weekends, Friday and Saturday night, the rate goes up to $79. The rake is high in Vegas, 10% sucks, but with enough play, you should get some decent food comps to help make up for the cost. When are you going? Good luck!
Of the casino's I have stayed at cheaply I like San Remo-excellent location
Circus Circus or Stardust you will need to take the trolly or bus to Mirage etc 1.50 each way
Stratoshere to far away if you don't have car
Motel 6 is close to the end of strip by airport and not bad.
Travel agent can probably get you a deal on an extended stay or check travelscape.com
MD,
I can't speak to accomodation. If you do decide to go, post a question about it on the "Other Topics" forum and you will probably get some good responses. My guess is that for a month stay you can get a place for less than 30 US/night.
If you frequent the Mirgage you have a pretty good chance at getting a complimentary dinner from them. They give out comps at 8PM in the poker room. A line usually starts about 7:40. Cocktail waitresses will supply you with complimentary beverages at the table; it is standard to tip them $1 per drink. (Try to stock up on $1 bills if you plan on drinking, tipping out of your poker chips can affect good recordkeeping).
Re: the games. They are profitable and fun and less agressive than PP. I just spent 3 days playing 3-6 and 6-12 at Mirage and 4-8 at Bellagio. In the lower games very few people have much HE skill and therefore play too many hands, play them too far and chase too much. For you that means you need to play good agressive poker. It also means you need to laydown hands that appear to be beat (KK with A on board, a set with three or four of suit and multiple players in) and be prepared that people will draw out on you. Thankfully, they will pay handsomely with second best hands and when their draws do not come in.
Whether or not you can win 1BB an hour is very difficult to say for a short period. If you are a good player, you can expect to win some, but the variance at LL is very high and will increase in the evenings and weekends when the tourists arrive. If lady luck is kind to you and you play a disciplined game you may very well hit that target. Of course, poker comes with no guarantees.
On a weeknight, I would expect the Mirage to have 1 to 3 3-6 games and Bellagio 1 to 3 4-8 games. Late at night you might be looking at one game each at that limit. Weekend nights and daytime you might see up to 5 tables at each room. Be prepared for some waiting at times. Practice good game selection, especially when there are few games going. If you do not feel comfortable in the one you are in, ask for a table change, go to another room or call it a night.
Neither Mirage or Bellagio have a jackpot drop. They rake 10% up to $3 or $4 (I can't remember which), taking it out as the pot size increases.
Most LL players tip the dealer $1 or $.50 when they win a pot. Dealers are equipped with .50 pieces and will "chop" a $1 chip if you ask "can you chop this please". It is not uncommon or rude to withhold a tip on a very small pot.
Feel free to email me if you have any more specific questions.
KJS
5/10 10-handed game.
I'm in the BB with pocket 99.
All fold to cut-off, who just calls (he's a weak player). Button raises (just sat down). SB folds, and I just call (mistake?).
Flop: J 6 4 r
I bet out, cut-off calls, button raises, both call.
Turn: 4c
Check, check, bet, call, call.
River: 8d
Same as turn.
I think I played this horrible. I was the whole way guessing, and paying him of like a calling station. Can someone plz give me advice how he/she would have played this?
Thanks.
If the button is a decent player he'll recognize that the pot is protected by the weak player. This way you can be somewhat assured that he isn't on a complete steal. He might be betting a hand such as pocket tens or eights.
The real drag about this hand is that you're out of position. If you were on the button you could pop him on the turn and find out if he had a good hand.
Just my 2 cents.
Sincerly, Andreas
Pre-flop you played fine, there is no point reraising him, as he is not trying to steal since there is already one limper.
On the flop, when raised, you have to give him some credit for a hand, especially when he bets again on the turn. I would have folded the turn.
Dave in Cali
Check-raise the flop, rather than betting out. By playing strongly like this, you can bump the hand if you get reraised at any point.
Chris
i think if you don't get a set and there are over cards on board, especially the flop, then you are beaten. especially in low limit. sometimes those 9's will be good, but not usually. although, check and call to the river may not be bad just to see if you can hit that third 9. and if you raise a bit before it hits, then when it comes on the river perhaps he won't put you on a set, like he might if you check-call, check-call, check-raise the river. plus you might figure out where you are at. if he's not super crazy, unless he has hit trips or at least 2 pair, he won't raise you back. i think the payoff call on the river was a waste of 10 bucks. you're probably not calling a bluff here, since there are overcards on board and there are more than just the 2 of you in the pot, he's probably not betting in an attempt to fold the field. so unless you have a good read and think hes got, say bottom pair, or something semi-legitimate that you can beat, then you either have to throw your hand away on the river or if you can raise to make the other guy haved to face to big bets then you might be able to take the pot. but i doubt it.
So Im playing 3-6 last night in the game that has all of Dave Shaw's money (ha ha ha). I pick up 9s9d on the button and 7 people limp in so I limp along.
First question; Dave, who was watching, admonished me for not raising here. However, this game was friendly (and terribly played!) and I had no inclination to start preflop raising wars with this crowd unless I was going to show down AA, KK or the like.
Flop: Ad Jd 10d
Im pondering what I think of this flop (not much!) when cutoff practically falls out of his seat, grabs me by the shoulder and whispers "I fold 8d 3d! I fold 8d 3d!!".
So. Now I've been given some potentially valuable information (ie, the odds of a flush are much less, given that 2 diamonds are already in the muck, I have one in my hand, and 3 are on board). Its checked all the way to me, so I decide to toss out a bet; I have no illusions that I am currently best, but I have "something" and some information.
Now: is it unethical to use this information, which I in no way solicited? And what do you think of the flop bet?
For the results oriented, turn was 9c, checked to me, I bet, only two stragglers hanging on (the K and Q of diamonds I suspected), river 7h, making the board:(br> 7h 9c 10d Jd Ad
I bet for value and both called and I won.
Interesting one.
First, I don't think there is much reason to raise with 99 here. Sure, you have the best hand, but overcards already in are not folding.
Honestly, I don't think you had access to any information not available to your opponents.
It was probably pretty easy to anyone taking the trouble to observe the table that the cutoff was telling you he folded a flush. What else would he be telling you? It should be just as obvious that he did not fold something like Kx or Qx of diamonds in a game like that. If they can't put him on 8d3d or something pretty close after he grabbed you and whispered sweet nothings into you ear, that is their fault.
It's like when the flop is 933 and some guy starts squirming in his seat. That information is there for anyone who is paying attention.
I have to wonder if your 9d flush draw wasn't good here, I bet it was and your opponents were calling with bad Aces or Jacks, otherwise they would not have paid you off. (Unless someone had KdJx or similar)
I think you played it just fine.
I do not think it is unethical to use that info to your advantage here. it IS unethical for him to give it to you, but what you gonna do?
I think your flop bet was even weaker than if you had not gained that info.
Once the turn comes it was a no-brainer.
Dave in cali
I think that with everyone limping you should have raised, since you were getting more than the 7.5:1 against your hitting a set. Raising wars be damned, if you have the odds, make the play. You might actually benefit by showing down a weak hand that you raised pre-flop with once in a while.
You are in the BB in a 3-6 full ring game. UTG raises and 7 other people call 2 bets cold. You are to close the action, with 17 SB in the pot. How bad a hand could you call with here?
(severe bragging rights with D.Shaw on the line)
My opinion: if I have 2 cards, I call at 17-1
His opinion: I need some kind of hand
The hand in question, I had J5o.
I think it depends on how well you play postflop. Because of your weak holding you will run into a lot of difficult situations. Since I feel not quite confident that I play any hand perfectly postflop, I would require some sort of hand. So no...I wouldnt call with J5o.
Regards, ME
I gotta say call with any two here. but I would definately consider anything less than a flopped two pair or open end draw here to be trash, and if you have an open end draw you definately need to consider that you may be drawing dead. top pair is a bust because with all these limpers somebody else is going to have a jack. you should also expect people to stick around with anything. It would be correct here for somebody to go to the river with all sorts of crazy holdings, so manuipulating thier pot odds is a must.
There is one other consideration, and that is image. in a lot of the low limit games I have seen folding with a pot this big for one bet preflop would just look weird. even the most obtuse of players would notice, though they might forget by the next hand, however that is also something to consider.
The image point is a good one I had not thought of.
if you folded and this wound up affecting your image, you could exploit that later when everyone thought you were a rock. I would still fold J5o anyway.
at the siverstar i would just toss in a call and yell family pot, but need a hell of a flop...gl
Shaw wins
For the bragging rights to be valid, exactly what criterion for agreement must be met? Whatever the case, here's my hasty response...
I would still fold the J5o.
I would call with suited connectors 25s or better.
I would call with any two suited cards containing a queen or higher.
I would call with unsuited no gappers 54o or better, but still fold unsuited no gappers below that.
I would call with unsuited one gappers 64o or better.
I would call with any two cards ten or higher, but be cautious if I flopped top pair.
I would fold unsuited non-connecting trash the same as if I was UTG, like JACK-FIVE OFFSUIT for instance!
About the WORST hand I would call with would be K9o.
Dave in Cali
"About the WORST hand I would call with would be K9o. "
I think some of the hands you indicated would call with are worse than K9o. Give me K9o over 64o any day.
Your calling standards go way down here to maybe off suit 3 gappers or any suited cards (I'm not crazy about the latter).
I'd love this situation with J-10s, QJs, KQs or AKs.
Calling with J5o and you flop top pair you're going to be dominated almost 100 0/0 of the time.
Flopping a set of J's or 5's you will still be most likely dominated because of the large field.
Will you flop a full house than 1 out of 17 times? Nope.
Now I'd like to pose this question and I hope the authors will comment...
In this situation if you have broadway suited connectors in the BB, do you raise?
I think I would at least half the time. Especially with 10-Js. Am I correct in that thinking?
Please Comment...
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
It might not be a terrible play to raise with ANY two suited broadway connectors, but I wouldn't. The reason for this is that you still may be dominated if you flop a pair, which is the more likely result than flopping a broadway or a draw to it. Say you have QJs and reraise. If the original raiser has AQ you are not going to be happy if a queen high flop comes, but you WILL wind up being involved with the pot, dominated the whole way. Despite the large field, I would not reraise here without the same things I would if I were in the BB in a smaller pot.
Dave in Cali
My apalogies. I meant to say if there is no raise to you in the BB with broadway suited connectors, especially J-10s do you raise? I believe I would at least half the time. Comments?
Kind regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
In a large multiway pot, if it is unraised and almost everyone is in, I would "sometimes" raise with cards like JTs or QJs, but would "usually" reraise with any two broadway cards which were both queen or higher, and would "always" reraise with AKs. some of this would depend on the propensity of my opponents to put in pointless limp-reraises and caps, the more likely, the less likely I would be to jack up the pot again....
Dave in Cali
I just completed a session of 10-20 HE where the button would raise after a few limpers then the blinds would re-raise and cap, "not to be pushed around". Different players would do this around the felt throughout the evening. Then the blinds would show hands like 7-9o or J-3s after making 2 pair the end and take it down...LOL! I just watched and smiled. I'm right there with you Dave. Thanks for your input.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
I was in a game last night where one guy stated that if it was three when it got to him, it was automatically going to four no matter what, and he didn't deviate from his plan all night. luckily for me, he had a reliable telegraph, in addition to his faithfully playing exactly like he told me he would, because he was on my left for two hours. Sometimes when there is lots of pointless raising, you should limp more often with certain hands, like AJs for instance, because the players in the game are going to be jacking it up anyway, so you can have more deception value that way. I usually do NOT limp-reraise myself in these games though, as it is not necessary, they will cold call or reraise with crap anyway. Last night they were capping with exactly what you were talking about, 97o, J2s, Axo, etc.... Gotta love it. But your fluctuations can be very high, I was winning 100, then went 2 hours without winning a pot, to where I was losing almost 200 (got several big hands beat too, like two sets and a flopped straight), but a couple more hours later, I was winning 100 again, and left just over 100$ up. Crazy games are frustrating, but profitable if you know the right strategies and can handle the fluctuations.
Dave in Cali
Your 17-1 odds are probably not good enough to call with J5o. Remember, you will have to play this hand from out of position. You need some kind of hand. Here's why.
The 17-1 odds look real nice and if you run a "sim" you might even start to approach those odds with J5o when facing 8 random hands. (I doubt it) What about taking J5o against 8 hands that have already put in two bets? You can be pretty sure there's very few hands like 93 and 72 in there. You are facing several decent hands, if not specifically hands that dominate your ass like KJ and A5s at the same time.
Even if the numbers show that J5o that can the pot one time in 25 (which would allow for a call with implied odds), you have to BE THERE to win the pot. Much of the time those "wins" for J5o include runner runner straight flush and two pair draws. Are you going to keep dumping money into this pot if you whiff on the flop? I hope not.
So what kind of flop are you looking for? Your odds of flopping two pair are approximately 40 to 1 and your odds of flopping trips are approximately 70-1.
What are you going to do with top pair or even a three flush of the Jack's suit?
This pot is going to get shown down. You cannot count on outplaying anybody with J5 in worst position against 8 players.
There are almost no good scenarios this hand can fit into. Dump it.
I believe that overplaying the blinds is a big leak that many players overlook.
natedogg
Just as I was ready to say I would call with any two cards, I read your post and had to stop and re-think.
Well not everybody has AK and there are some suited conectors in there, but I dought evryone has a better hand than J5. I would still call and dump if the flop missed (the flop I'd want is J55 BTW).
You may be right that this is a leak in my game.
David, David, David,
Luckily I'm not one to brag (all that much).
Basically, Dave in Cali gave about the same answer I would have ... the odds of flopping something sufficiently strong not to have to worry about domination are still larger than 17-1. His calling standards are comparable to mine, although I'm a little tighter, especially when it comes to offsuited stuff.
But then again, I'm just a unimaginative tight-ass, right?
Woohoo! Bragging rights!
Dave
Im not the one 3-betting the best player in the game with AJo...heh heh
.
Are you implying that I am a loose lucy? A loose cannon? A MANIAC!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'll get you, Dave "Mr. Tightass" Shaw!! I WILL HAVE MY REVENGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually, I think the point is that having large pot odds still does not justify calling with complete trash, your hand must have some intrinsic value before you can call ANY raise. You can't just enter the pot every time you are getting big odds without considering what your cards are, and how many flops might help them. Cards like J5o just don't have a lot of good flops, especially in nine-way pots!
Dave in Cali
There is $54 in the pot and Im not playing on unless I flop two pair or an open ender or trips.
If any of those things happen, I will like my chances to win the hand, and the resulting pot will be plenty big enough to justify the $3 invested.
Even if immediate pot odds aren't enough, implied odds should make it so.
Hmmm. If you call and flop one pair you don't think you have have odds to take one off for one more small bet? You have a better odds with this call than you do with the original one.
Oy veh, what have I started?
I don't think you are all that loose. As I said, my calling standards are comparable.
The only area where you and I disagree is on the number of offsuited hands which are playable. In this instance, I am guided by both TTH sims and experience which suggests that offsuited connectors in an large multiway pot are nowhere near the moneymakers that everyone thinks they are. I realize that TTH is "not real poker," and I also haven't run a sim in this exact scenario, but I would be willing to wager that, at best, the extra hands you might play are break even, but higher variance, propositions.
Just a few random thoughts.
Dave
You need to flop 2 pair or better, and then have your hand hold up. Therefore you need ~28:1 for J5o. Derrick
Playing any 2 cards here is not a very good idea.
These are the hands I will play:
Any pocket pair.
Any 2 suited cards where the higher card is at least a J.
Any suited connectors down to 45.
Any offsuit connecting cards down to 56.
Here are some hands I will throw away:
All offsuit aces except AK and maybe AQ. I will throw away AJo here.
All offsuit kings except maybe KQ - hoping to get a straight. And if I flop top pair I am not going to get married to it.
Notice the trend here - in this game, especially since the raise came from UTG, I want to play longshot draws. I want to make gutshots and checkraise the turn when I get there. I will collect a huge pot when I do. I also want to flop flush draws and checkraise them for value.
I do NOT want to take a hand like AJ, flop top pair, and then pray it holds up. That is, if it was ever good in the first place, and often times it won't be.
I don't like to flop middle or bottom pair and then try to play suckout - unless I have a backdoor flush or straight draw to go with it. Contrary to what others believe, I think it is bad poker to flop bottom or middle pair in a family pot and try to catch trips or 2 pair. Sure it is ok to call for 1 small bet on the flop, but only on certain types of boards.
Even though you have great odds, you are giving up position to 7 players, so I would agree that you need some kind of hand, but not much. I would probably play any two suited cards, any two connected or one gappers, and any two cards 9 or bigger. With most other hands, your need to flop at least two pair to be any good against such a large field out of position, and even then every body who calls will probably have outs against you.
But with nine players in, your probably not making much of a mistake either way, and if you call, and eventually turn over some ugly hand as a winner it will make you seem a lot looser, than if you fold under those conditions.
good luck, bt.
Yes, what you've all been waiting for. I called with my J5o.
I flopped nothing at all and check-folded. Pretty exciting stuff eh
David,
Man, that's just cold as hell to wait 24 hours for that kind of result :) (chuckle, snort, LOL)
72s and 53o. Your chance of flopping a strong hand with an unconnected nothing is 28-1.
A quickie.
Tiny limit PaP. So far a slow game and after the two biggest contributors left it became the proverbial rock garden.
Deciding to quit and just playing out the round I picked up 99 in the cutoff after a limper. This player seemed (way too small sample) too be decent except limping with all kinds of hands. Not wanting button and blinds to join in, I raise. Only BB and limper calls.
Flop comes Q 8 5 rainbow
The BB bets out, limper folds.
Prudent or chicken? I fold. Please comment.
Prudent.
Unlike below, under D.Andrew's post where I think some image management is in order, I do suggest dropping second pair and moving on here. You might be beat and your best option is to either fold or raise and find out. A very LL player will probably call you all the way down with his Q anyway. Tiny Limit PP is showdown poker, wait until you are more sure you can showdown a winner.
KJS
The question you need to ask is how likely the bettor is to bet a queen or an eight. If he is unlikely to bet the 8, you need to think about folding. If he will bet the eight (or perhaps a gutshot draw) but try to check raise you with the queen, you need to think about raising.
The problem here is the number of hands I've seen (maybe three rounds) and I havn't seen the BB do much of anything.
I'm glad to hear I'm not a complete woss for folding. The main reason for folding THIS time was I wanted to leave with a small win (after taking two pots an amoeba wouldn't have misplayed). The table was just a complete waste of time.
Thanks for responding! :-o
I'd raise here. There is a possibility the BB has a Q but there's also a chance that he has kicker problems. He could easily be betting the 8 or some kind of straight draw. I think you gave up too easily here.
Rahul
What is the deal Miles?? When can we get together and jam? It's been years man...
6-12, very loose game.
Pre-Flop: I'm middle position with JJ. A limper before me and a poster behind. Very loose blinds. I decided to flat call and play for the set, as I feared a raise would result in the dreaded 3 or 4 opponents. Well, next player to my left,(NP), raised, poster called, button coldcalled, blinds called, limpers called, I called. We saw the flop 7-handed.
Flop: Jc 10d 2c. Top set for me, but flush and straight draws. Checked to me, I bet, NP (preflop raiser) raised, poster folded, button coldcalled, blinds called, limper folded. I strongly considered 3-betting, as I had no desire to slowplay here. However, I didn't think any of the callers would fold for 1 or 2 more small bets, so I decided to just call. My thinking is that if a safe card falls on the turn, I'll bet into the pre-flop raiser, and he'll likely raise again with his overpair or possibly set of 10s. Then I will probably 3-bet. This way the draws will have to either pay the maximum or fold. I was afraid that if I 3-bet the flop, NP would slow down on the turn. We see flop 5-handed.
Turn: Kh. Not exactly a safe card, but at least not a club. Checked to me, and I decided to bet hoping NP would raise. If he now has a set of kings, them's the breaks. Sure enough, he raised. And then the button 3-bet. My hunch was that he just hit gutshot broadway with A-Q. However, he also could have had a set of 10s, two pair, or something like Kc Qc. I called 2 more bets and NP called one more bet.
River: 3s, no flush possible. Checked to the button who bets. I call and NP calls.
I'll post the results later. All comments welcome. I guess my biggest question is was it a mistake not to 3-bet the flop?
Thanks,
Caddy
Caddy,
That is an interesting hand.
My gut reaction is that you should have 3 bet the flop. This seems like your pot to lose and I would want to build it up. The draws are trapped between you and the raiser and so they will be along for the ride. Hold your breath and make your pot big now.
I like your plan for the turn and would advocate if the board was not so coordinated. With such a coordinated board your plan will not come to fruition often enough to make it worthwhile, IMO. As it turned out you may have ended up building a pot on the turn and not winning the hand. I think you should build when you were more sure you had the best hand.
KJS
Caddy
It is my opion that you should have three bet the flop make hay while the sun shines, make them pay if they want too draw out on you!
Ken
Caddy,
I like 3 betting the flop and trying to make the pot big. You're out in front, and the big draws are going to come along anyway, and the little draws are trapped into seeing the turn. You may as well charge them, and even if they get there on the turn, you have 10 outs on the river.
good luck, bt.
i like the call though. this shows that you may be afraid of a raise, and will probably not 3-bet the turn. however, you should three bet the turn. i wouldn't doubt that the raiser (was he a new player? he could be very loose, you don't know.) was raising with AK possibly suited with the flush draw out there. now he is being aggressive on the turn, not putting you on a set of jacks thats for sure. a lot of J-high flops are worth betting to try and take the pot. overcards will have to decide whether to draw or not, and perhaps you already have 2 pair, especially with that T on board as well. and him raising was perhaps a try at a bluff, or just hoping that the draws go away and maybe he can play it with you heads up. im pretty sure your set of JJJ is good here. just call on the flop and make the draws feel a bit better about sticking around, and then 3 bet the turn. you might even be up against KT AT KJ AJ or bottom set. there are a lot of raising hands out there that you can beat, and not that many that beat you, so play this one aggressively, and build the pot when the bets double. if you get beat, thats just more people to call you down when you have monster hands.
A regular 9-18 player is in the 3-6 game i'm in and raises utg. all fold to me in late position and three bet w/ pocket red kings. the blinds fold.
i've played w/ this guy once and he tends to be a hyper-agressive guy that likes to play super fast and strong...probably typical of you guys at higher limits.
anyways, there's no cap since it's heads up and he four bets me.
i re-raise once again and he raises again. so i just call.
flop is 10c-8c-2s
he checks. i check. [comments here please]
turn is 5s.
he checks. i bet, he raises. i call. [comments here pls]
river is 3h.
he bets. i call. [comments here pls]
my questions is, against a super agressive player, but not maniac, how many bets/raises would you make preflop?
the guy had ace-nine spades.
like i said, hyper-agressive.
i bet the turn figuring my hand is good b/c nobody likes giving free cards on the flop, right? but once i'm raises, again, do i just call him down? i considered folding but didn't b/c of my read on him.
what's a guy to do? thanks in advance
I know hyper aggressive players get AA sometimes also, but I have noticed
I would have bet the flop, then 3-bet if he checkraised. If he raises again, I would call him down the rest of the way.
Puka,
I would probably put in the same # of bets preflop as you did.
On the flop, I would have bet after he checks, if I'm ahead, he isn't going anywhere for one small bet, and if he check raises me, I'll call all the way to the river and hope I'm ahead.
I think that after you checked the flop, He might have decided that you had AK and might have check raised with almost anything, certainly almost anything that he would 6 bet preflop.
On the river, you just have to call, I dont see that raising will get you anything and you might me behind, but he certainly might have AK of clubs.
Good luck, bt.
It's a kill pot and there is one conservative limper in the pot so far. I am in middle position, I look down and see AsKc. I raise it to 12$. The next player, an aggressive player (AP) who overplays some hands, reraises and makes it 18$ to go. Only the limper calls, I call, we see the flop 3 handed.
Flop is Ts 3s 8c. Limper checks and I check. AP bets 6 and we both call.
Turn is the Qc, giving me a gutshot to a broadway, plus two overcards which MIGHT be good. Limper checks and I bet it out. AP calls and limper makes a disgusted fold.
River is the 6c. I check and AP checks. he shows down As9s and I take the pot with my best no-pair. Limper who folded is visibly pissed off, I heard him muttering about having folded a ten.
This hand brings up a few interesting points, comments on both my play and my opponents play welcome.
Dave in Cali
p.s. I will be having a busy weekend, I may not respond to any of my posts from today until next week, unless I happen to get time I wasn't expecting! If you want to know something, and my posts get buried, email me.
Depending on your play and the limper's play (both of which I'm not familiar with), I think a case could be made for AP raising the turn with his spade and str8 draw of his own. You played the hand as many would play AK. You'd have been hard pressed to call him down.
Then again, from what I DO know of your play, he shouldn't have been in there with A8s....
If AP had bet the river, I would have called him down, no question about it. the reason for this is that he overplays hands, even weak ones, like three betting with A8s....
The player who flopped a ten (for top pair) played very poorly, it wound up costing him the pot....
Dave in Cali
Have you ever felt guilty about making someone pay the maximum for a hand?
I was playing 6-12 in SoCal and had a Pair of Kings on the button. I raised and had three callers.
The flop comes KQQ - a dream flop if I ever saw one. First player checks, second bets, third mucks, I call, first player mucks. I usually always bet for value, but in this case I figure I am close to invincible so I plan to call all the way and bump him up on the river.
As expected, the player bet into me on the turn - I called. On the river he bet, I raised, he re-raised! I re-raised, he called. His three queens fell to my Kings full.
I felt like I was taking advantage of this guy - from what I could tell he was an inexperienced player who played a lot of junk. I also thought I was giving him a lesson - but now I have to wonder if I would have popped it up on the turn if I would have garnered a bigger return.
Any thoughts?
Hank,
Nah... I think you played the hand very well. IMO, you can't raise before the river because you'll lose at least 1 BB. If you raise the turn after he bets out twice, I don't care how new or inexperienced, he's gotta smell a rat here.
Uncomfortable spot for him... he's out of position. Guess he didn't respect your raise or put you on AK hoping you'd get tied to it.
I don't feel bad for your opponent... if you're going to win at poker, you'd better be ready to check-raise your own grandfather (I have, many times) :)
Best wishes, and nice flop. Mike
he wasn't dead, coulda got a Q...also checking or calling flop someone could make a srt8...hard for ll players to fold a hand..good play..gl
bumping on the turn is iffy. if he is really as clueless as you say, then maybe the river betting scenario would have occured on the turn, and then you'd be able to bump him on the river as well. on the other hand, if he has a vague clue as to what you might be doing, you could lose a bet if you bump the turn, because he might just check call the river. also, you can't feel bad about outplaying somebody. i mean, if you were playing for the fun, then play at home, otherwise if you are in a casino, and playing for fun, then play 1-2. if you are playing any higher than that, then play for all your worth. outplay who you can, and out draw the other suckers. nobody deserves a break if they are sitting at your table.
He RE-RAISED you? Gees, I hope this guy plays at my table someday.
5/10 game, 10 handed.
I'm in the BB with 7d5d. UTG raises (very loose player), MP calls (also pretty loose), cut-off calls, I call. 4 handed, 8 SB in the pot.
Flop: Ad Kh Qd
I check, UTG bets, MP calls, cut-off folds, I call.
Turn: 3h
I check, UTG bets, MP raises. Your action?
I folded because there are 8.5 BB in the pot, so I'm getting 2:8.5. I can be fairly sure UTG will call also, so I'm getting 2:9.5, just enough to draw (with some implied odds). I cant be sure however if the Kd is good, or the 3d, and I'm not closing the action. So I could be drawing to 7 outs with the chance of being re-raised. So that's why I folded.
Comments?
Thanks
By my count there is $87 in the pot and it costs you $20 to call. These are pot odds of about 4.35-to-1. If you figure to collect another $10 at the river when you hit, then your implied odds are almost 5-to-1 assuming your hand holds up. You have 9 outs from 46 unseen cards so your drawing odds are 37-to-9 against which is a little over 4-to-1. Bottom line is that you appear to have a bit of an overlay here to call which might cover the times you get reraised or get beat by a better hand at the river.
I think it is close between folding or calling. A flop of A-K-Q is a horrifying flop since it can easily fit many hands a preflop raiser and a preflop cold-caller might have.
Note that if the pot had not been raised preflop, then folding would be clearly correct since the pot odds would not be there to chase.
I would have played it the same Ikke. Your getting about the right odds to call, but a flop like this is likely to have hit a pre-flop raiser and caller pretty hard. You could be looking at a few more raises.
You need a bit of an overlay for when you are drawing to 7 outs and for when you are drawing dead (someone has Kd-Jd). You don't have it here. Good fold.
Ikke,
One more thing you might consider estimating, as Jim Brier pointed out, is your implied odds. Its good practice. Consider also that as the chance of you getting raised again on the turn increases, so likely does your implied odds, and, unfortunately, the chance that the board pairing flush cards are no good. I like your 7 out adjustment, as this also balances out the drawing dead to a bigger flush (as Winger added).
One more thing. The flop. Although it is immediately slightly unprofitable, a checkraise on the flop often tends to slowdown the turn action and also leaves little doubt as to the strength of opposing hands if there is a turn raise after doing this. A flop move of some type also might increase your implied odds and gives you some semi bluff power if it turns out the preflop raiser is on something foldable and you catch the middle limper on a draw. Food for thought, not always the right play, and you shouldn't eat at least two hours before doing it.
Why do I feel like I am in the middle of a J. Feeney/John Feeney post?
Regards.
For what its worth, I would have mucked the hand before the flop. I wouldn't play 7 5 s in the BB if it gets raised before.
Hey gang, I'll keep it short, but I'd appreciate some comments on these hands from last night in Marksville. All games were 4-8.
1. K 10s on the button. I raise the blind, 3 callers. Flop is K K J. Check to me, I bet 4, one caller. Turn is the 4th K. I bet 8, she mucks. Should I have checked the turn and bet the river? Oh, I did get an extra $50 for that one for high hand of the half-hour.
2. A clubs 4 clubs on the button. 4 callers to me, I call, SB calls, BB checks. Flop is Kc 8c and garbage. 4 callers to me, I raise, SB and BB fold, UTG folds, other 3 call. Turn is Jc. Check around to me, I bet 8, one caller. River is garbage, check to me, I bet 8, he calls, I've got the A high flush, he mucks. Was it wise to raise before the turn?
3. 10 9 offsuit in middle position. UTG calls, next Player raises, 2 callers to me, I muck. Flop is...you guessed it...K Q J. The turn and river were garbage. Winner took the hand with KJo. Was that the right move in middle position with 10 9o? That one has been driving me CRAZY all day!
Good luck and happy hunting!
zuluking
1) You might have gotten a call on the river if you checked the turn. On the other hand there are plenty of times you'll get two bets.
2) Of course your raise was good. You've got plenty of callers. By raising the flop you gained 2 BBs in this pot. Do you think that the other players would be more inclined to call you down if you hadn't raised the flop? Besides, you might get a freecard thoose times you don't make the flush on the turn.
3) I always muck T9 offsuit unless the pot is extreme, lets say 5-6 limpers and I'm the button or in the small blind. My playing style might be a bit conservative thou. But coldcalling with this hand is not a good idea. In fact, you should often avoid cold calling, if you can't 3-bet you should probably fold. There are of course exceptions to this.
Sincerly, Andreas
OK, all you studmuffin low limit hold em players, let's put some hand-reading skills to the test. I'll give you the details of a hand that I recently played in a loose-passive 3-6 game. If you can correctly put me on my hand, you'll get an 'attaboy' from me. Close is no cigar, you need to tell me the two cards and whether suited or unsuited.
For you results oriented people, I did win the pot without a showdown (go figure, huh?). Anyway without further ado, here's the situation.
3-6 holdem game, 9 handed:
I am in the BB with... oops almost gave it away :) Girl UTG is solid and calls along with 4 other limpers. SB drops out and I check. 6 players... $18 in pot.
Flop comes 5 6 7 with 2 hearts
I check and gets checked to the cutoff who bets, button calls, I check raise and get cold-called by UTG girl, cutoff calls the raise, everyone else folds.
3 players...$39 in pot (-$3 rake) so $36.
Turn card is offsuit 4
I bet out...UTG girl thinks for about 90 seconds and calls disgustedly...cutoff folds.
Headsup...$51 in pot (-$3 rake) so $48
I bet in the dark, river comes an offsuit 2... UTG girl folds immediately.
OK, looking forward to these responses. Remember specify the 2 cards and whether they were suited or unsuited. I will submit the results once several people have had a chance to post. Then, I'll start a new thread for rebuttal on the play of my hand. Good luck.
Mike
Oh hell....8 9 offsuit?
Please, you bore me... zzzzzzzzz.
Do you really think I would've spent good time posting something that easy?
No. But its late and I just got in from the casino and my brain is fried. I'll sleep on it and post again.
3-7o
I will try Ah8h. You had potential for a flush or straight on the flop. The 4 on the turn made your straight. The lady had a flush draw but not the nut flush and debated but called. You bet blind, 'cause if a heart hit, all the better.
AA
3,4s
7-4o
Th9h.
What kind of solid player takes 90 seconds to decide whether to call one bet with a 4567 2-heart board?
3 spades, 4 diamonds
you had a set on the flop, probly not suited...she had nine, nine
An easy Th8h. On the other hand...no, you posted this hand because of your brilliant turn and river play, because you saw that UTG girl would drop to a bet on the river, so wait....no Th8h, easy man, it's ofcourse 9h4h.
I'll make my guess then look at the others. I presume you were giving us 2 hints by advising (1) "Girl UTG is solid" and to "Remember specify the 2 cards and whether they were suited or unsuited". If that being true, we should be able to discount pocket pairs. You probably had a big drawing hand and wanted to limit the field (especially UTG) with your check raise on the flop. There are still numerous combinations which would have been compatable with your play.
My guess is 8-10h (maybe 9-10h). Oops, sorry. That's 2 guesses.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
nt
nt
3h,8h
76 - 2 pair
Your bet in the dark shows your weakness. I put UTG on a flush draw, so how can you bet before the last card comes? Even if you had 8-9h it's a bad play.
I would assume you flopped top pair and were trying to thin the field. You don't check raise if you flopped a straight. Maybe you made 2 pair on the turn? Either way i know you can't call a raise on the river because of your blind bet.
Studmuffin? You should have just asked for me specifically...
Well, it is easier to tell what UTG has, a flush draw being the most likely hand, probably AXs. As for you, I would put you on 87h if I had to choose two exact cards. However, your being in the BB means that you could have any number of hands which you might play that way, 75, 76, 56, 55,66,77, A7 or a small overpair like 88 or 99, or even 98 for a flopped straight.
To be honest, I don't think that the way you played the hand lends itself to putting you on two exact cards, but if I had to choose, I would still pick 8h7h. The reason I would pick these two cards is that you bet right away when the four came on the turn, indicating that you weren't really that worried about a straight. Also, your blind river bet indicates to me that you weren't worried about a flush card, so you very well have had the hearts yourself. 9h8h would be my second choice, your play would make sense if those were your cards too. My guess is that you wouldn't have liked another heart, as UTG would have raised you. In this case, I don't think the blind river bet was a good idea, I would have checked if another heart came, then called.
Dave in Cali
I just have to describe this hand and can only conclude that the player was “married” to the hand. I was not involved.
4-8, six players see flop, no raise.
Flop is 9 4 9 off suit.
1st player bets, three callers, no raise. I am watching and thinking at least one player has a 9. Look out for a raise on the turn!
Turn is 9
OK, three nines out. 1st player bets and same 3 callers, no raise.
River is 9 ! ! ! (9 4 9 9 9)
1st player bets. 2nd player raises. 3rd player drops. 4th calls and 1st folds. 2nd players shows AK for nut hand.
4th player is to my right and starts to fold hand and shows me a pair of 5’s and sees me looking at hand, places the hand face up, reaches over and moves one of the 9’s, as if to say “I had a full house on the turn!”
OK. - - - BUT, it was quad 9’s on the river. ANY card higher than a 5 beat your hand, AND it was bet and raised before you! (I did not say that out loud, just incredible!)
Mental block, or *&^)((@# of the year????
Thats funny. Similar to a story Dunc told me about 2 players who folded on the river to a bet and a raise with a board of 9999A. Haha.
A similar thing happned to me. I was playing shorthanded and betting pocket fives agressivly. Well the river brought a higher two-pair on the board so I ended up with two-pair, 5 kicker. I check, he checks, I show, he mucks.
Why, thank you so very much sir!
Sincerly, Andreas
I once observed this at a 6/12 game. Board: 9,9,7,7,2. Player bet his A,Q. Player called and showed 5,5!
I think it was neither a mental block nor *&^)((@# of the year. Instead, this is someone who doesn't understand the game very well, if at all, please tell me where and when they play so I can come take their money.
10-handed online 2-4$ game. The game is good with a couple of looseys. This will probably sound like a bad beat story (oops, I gave away the ending...) but I'd like to know if I played it overly agressive.
Anyway, I'm on the button with Kh Kd. UTG folds, next to utg limps, the bad and loose (BL) player after him limps. Solid player after him raises, loose agressive (LA) player after him 3bets, it's folded to me. I'm pretty sure I have the best hand so I cap it. Both blinds fold. All call.
Flop: Td 5s 7h.
This is a good flop for me, the only worry is that any of the solid players might hold pocket tens. It's checked to LA player who bets, I raise. I now put him on an overpair or a big ten. Raising will further define my hand as well as putting pressure on the remaining players. The first limper folds, BL call 2 cold, solid player fold, LA calls. BL could be in here with anything.
Turn: 9s, Board: Td 5s 7h 9s
BL player checks, LA bets. Betting into me again? Hrm, I think for a second and raise him. I still put him on either an overpair or toppair/good kicker. BL coldcalls once more. LA calls.
River: 5h, Board: Td 5s 7h 9s 5h
It's checked to me. I bet, BL checkraises, LA folds. I cry out loud and call. Sure enough, he held 5d 6d.
The two big questions in this hand is: 1) Should I have slowed down on the turn? 2) Should I have bet the river? Considering that BL could be (and was) in there with crap?
Sincerly, Andreas
Because of the player, I would raise his turn bet figuring my hand is still good. Against decent players who can correctly reason that you have a big overpair from your previous betting, you may want to just call because they could have two pair or a hand that beats yours. But against a loose, aggressive player who simply likes to exercise his betting arm, I like your raise. You also want the bad player to pay two big double bets to continue on with his garbage.
At the river, I like your bet when checked to you. You rate to get calls from worse hands like lower pocket pairs or top pairs or a worse two pair since the pot is large and the players are loose. Normally, if a player hits a hand on the river they will bet since they cannot be sure you will be bet. So when they check, it is usually right to bet again.
Hi all:)
Thanx for the many responses that I received on this post. I had fun looking over all of them and seeing the logic that you applied. I think you'll all agree that accurate hand-reading (as well as accurate classification of other players) will contribute handsomely to your holdem winnings. Hopefully, I'll have another noteworthy hand soon to do this again.
As one shrewd poster did point out... I did provide a few clues for help:
1) The girl UTG was a solid player 2) I did not hold 9-8 suited or offsuit (sorry if I seemed pissy, Zuluking... it was late) 3) I won without showdown (what does that tell ya?)
And now the results... dum dum dummmmmmmmm Nobody got it!!!! Not one of you.
My hand in the BB was A7 offsuit :) Huhhh?!!!!??? Nope, sorry!! No straight, no flush draw, just one measly top pair top kicker.
Let's look at this again. On the flop, I check-raised my top pair top kicker after the cutoff bet and button called with the intention of finding out who was drawing and who wasn't. Also, I check-raised to narrow the field and move out the overcards. Since only the girl UTG called and the original bettor (cutoff) called, I figured that my hand was good right now.
Because of the scary texture of the flop (2 suited and 3 sequenced) I knew that the girl UTG would put me on the nut straight. The cutoff (who told me later that he was betting AJ) I guessed would probably fold to a bet on the turn, which he did.
The 4 on the turn kinda threw a monkey wrench in my plans but I can't check now and show weakness. Therefore, I bet. Girl UTG calls reluctantly (I found out later that she had A8 suited) with her made straight. Cutoff folds as I guessed.
Now, it's just me and her. Being a good player and me betting out again (twice now) she throws her hand away. When I told her what I held later, she laughed and told me that it was a gutsy play. She really did believe that I had the nuts.
Doesn't this feel like the end of a Scooby Doo episode when Fred and Velma take you back and discuss all the clues? The pot would've been hers if it wasn't for this meddling dude.
Comments and criticism are definitely welcome. Please tell me overall what you think about this play. Of course, you can't use it that often (maybe once every couple of sessions with the right people), but under the right conditions it can be a very profitable weapon. In this case, it was about $50.
Thanx again for all the input. Hopefully I'll have another one soon.
Mike
Interesting. I had you with a 7, but I'm not sure how we are to determine your second card out of the big blind. I can see similar strategies with with Q-7 offsuit, J-7 suited (other than hearts), etc. Basically, your playing off a bet to narrow field, learn info, etc., especially if the cut-off is an agressive bettor.
What I don't understand is the play of this supposedly solid player. - what was she drawing to on the turn if you convinced her you had the nuts. A nine to split? Or did she also have hearts? - for one more bet, a solid player would not have folded, considering what was in the pot. A blind bet would make me MORE likely to call, in most cases.
A "solid player" who throws away the straight? are you totally nuts? That's such incredibly bad play I'm rendered speechless. And if you are going to *choke* throw it away, then why not do it on the turn? Was she hoping to peel the 9 for the split?
Good god,
Chris.
This story is not about hand-reading, but about a player who's so horribly weak-tight that she puts someone on a flopped nut straight just because he (1) check-raises late bettors with a coordinated flop from the blind, presumably risk a free counterfeit in exchange for the chance to drive out callers, or to win it right there on the turn, when an overcard might give them another reason to fold (?!?), and (2) dark-bets the river, and is so sure of this she'll fold the second nut straight, but only after paying 2 big bets to draw to 3 outs that will make her yet another second nut straight (?!?). Against any player with an 8, you needed to be up against exactly the right shade of idiot, and you hit one right on the nose. Well done.
I figured you bet in the dark in order to induce a call from what was obviously some kind of decent hand that couldn't beat a straight, hoping that she'd read you for a desperate flush draw (I put her on a big slowplayed hand that soured when the 4 hit the turn). But I had forgotten that some players really do resort to moves on the end when they're desperate to prevent a call (having no need to try something out of the ordinary with a real hand).
I'll post and read the others comments.
Actually my first thought was either A-7 suited or off-suit.
I would have played the hand the same way you did. My only thought is how the "solid" (I question that now) girl played the hand. IMO she should have called your river bet. If I had her hand I would have raised your turn bet and if you 3-bet me I would have called and called or checked the river.
You knew your opponent very well, I'd say. Way to go!
Kind Regards,
Gene
After reading the others, we all seem to be on the same page on this one.
Yes, it seems you knew her pretty well but if I were you, now that you've read our comments, I would re-evaluate how you classify your players. She was far, far, far away from being a solid player. A-8 suited is in the muck UTG from a solid player most if not almost 100 percent of the time. You would not have bet if you had her on any 8, would you? Hope not. Please be open minded to my next comment not to take too much offense it but if you would have, then you are not as "solid" as you may think.
Kind Regards,
Gene
If you knew that utg had A8 would you have played the hand the same way? Did you really think that she was laying down a straight?
I would have check folded the turn because with this board, it's almost impossible that your hand is good and most lower limit players will call you down with hands that beat yours and 99.9% of them will call you down with the straight.
Peace
Goodie
Exactly!
Mike Good job on your two threads, interesting stuff. Now that I see your results, I was right about your hand in one aspect, that you had top pair, but I was wrong about your kicker, and the effect of the four coming on the turn. I also thought that you were likely suited in hearts, but I was wrong about that too. IMO, you slightly overplayed your hand by betting the river blind. I think that was a dangerous play, despite the outcome and what the other players held. I would reserve my blind river bets for better situations. I also hope you intended to fold for a turn raise, but I suspect you would have.
Why UTG didn't raise the turn, and why on earth she folded for one more bet heads up on the river is totally beyond my comprehension. Her best play, whether she raised the turn or not, would have been to at least call you down!!!! I am assuming that when you said she had A8s, that it was hearts. If this was the case, she should have raised the turn as a means to drive out hands that could make a better straight, like A9 or T9. She would still have been able to call if it got reraised, because she had nine outs to a flush. On the river, UTG really screwed up BADLY. I would NEVER fold a straight in that exact situation you discussed, unless maybe I only had the three, but then I would have folded the turn, not the river. I think UTG is TOO good of a player for her own good, she is laying down too easily, she is giving others credit for a much better hand than they have realistically indicated that they might have, and she ignored rather large pot odds on the river (54:6 or 9:1) to make a pot saving call. She had to be more than 90% certain that you held EXACTLY 98 in order to make that fold, and the way you played it certainly did not justify her folding. The river fold was a mathematical catastrophy in and of itself, but it was a collosal blunder given her hand, the board and the action. Most of the criticism for this hand falls on UTG's play.
Dave in Cali
I'm sorry but I find it very difficult to believe that anyone would throw away a str8 on the river (and I play with some weak players). A player with even slight hand reading skills wouldn't put you on the str8 when you check raise the flop.
1-4-8 holdem Saturday, real loose table, bet has been capped preflop alot. I am 2 off the button with 10-Js, UTG raises, I call and the button reraises, just UTG and I call. Flop comes 10-J-Q rainbow, UTG bets 4, I reraise to 8 and the button reraises to 16, both UTG and I call. The turn is a K, UTG bets, I call, button reraises to 16, and UTG makes it 24. I'm facing a $16 call and I'm thinking the button will reraise. I had the button figured for AA and now I know both have a A and i'm stuck in between. I think for a second and muck.(mistake?). Button just calls. Well you know what the river, a J finsihing my full for a nice pot. Did I have the odds to call? If so i need help on figuring odds like this under fire. Any help or comments welcome, this hand has really been bugging me all weekend.
Thanks in Advance Tobar
OK, I've never played these weird three-limit games, but as far as I understand it there is $10 in the pot preflop ($10.50 if there's a small blind, but I'll ignore that to simplify things). $16 each on the flop, so $48 more, total $58. Now if you think its going to get capped on the turn, which is a reasonable assumption, then you're facing putting in another $24. The pot size after the turn will be $96 + $58 = $154. So you're putting in $24 to win $154 = 15.58%. You are drawing to four outs and if you assume they both hold an ace then you know the location of 8 cards in the deck... so you hit your outs 4/44 = 1/11 = 9.09%, which is not good enough. Even if you assume you get another bet off both of them on the river, making your win $172, thats still 13.95%, still too high a ratio. Plus the button could have KK or similar and you're drawing dead. So you did the right thing mucking it, but your out happened to come up. Same deal as when you fold your low pockets on the flop and spike your set on the turn. Forget it.
Chris
Chris,
Thanks, its a spread limit 1-4-8 meaning you can bet 1 to 4 on the preflop/flop, and bet 1 to 8 on the turn and river. I never give a thought of drawing dead but your right! The button had AA and UTG had A-10s. I guess what made me think about the hand so much was the fact that they split my money up, which wasn't a warm fuzzy feeling. I have really been making an effort to count every pot, but it just has to come natural, and I think that my problem when it comes to these kind of calls.
Thanks Tobar
P.S. The blinds are $1 and $2 by the way.
OK, that might change things. You'd have to post what the bets were on every street. Were people raising $4 preflop?
Chris
Lets count it up. 3 players $10 preflop plus the $3 blinds, totals $33. UTG bets $4, I raise, $8, and the button reraises thats $12 per player=$59 in the pot. The turn went UTG bets $8, I call, button raises, $16, UTG reraises, $24, that's $38 more so the pots is $97 and i'am looking at a $16 call, plus I think the button going to pop it again. If I would of stayed in it would of been capped at $32 thats $129 total before the river. So i'm paying $32 to win a total of $177 if the river goes UTG bets, I raise and button calls, UTG call. $177/$32 is .18% so maybe I should of called but it's close right? 4 outs with 43 unknown is 9%, which is not enough again. Any correction welcome.
Thanks again Tobar
If you want to make this math simple you are drawing to 4 outs that is 10.5-1x24$=252$ in pot. It is not even close fold.
However 2 Aces give you a tie if no flush is possible. With 6 outs to draw to you need only 150$ in the pot. If you know that there was only 1 Ace left you would need a 204$ pot to draw if you must put in 24$ more.
7 handed 2-4$ game, not really good but I hade 15 minutes to kill.
I'm in the cut-off with A-K offsuit.
UTG raises, 2 cold callers to me, both the coldcallers are decent players. With decent I mean that the usually don't get far out of line. Of course they could be coldcalling with cheese like A-9 suited and the likes.
Your move... a) 3-bet and lose noone. b) Coldcall, hopefully hit the flop and have a chance to bet someone off the pot.
Anyway, I coldcalled, both blinds called. The flop came all rags with two diamonds. SB bet, two callers to me and I muck...
The flop fold was clear since I assumed many of my outs were in opponents hands. I also assumed that there was a great chance that the SB held a set (what else would he coldcall with in this spot??) but I was wrong there. He had coldcalled with 7-3 offsuit, go figure.
Comments on coldcall and the flop fold please.
Sincerly, Andreas
I think I would 3-bet if UTG and coldcallers are on the loose side. So if UTG has loose raising standards, and coldcallers can call with A9s and the like, I think 3-betting is the best option, since you might buy the button, have better possibilities to get the blinds out (because with a single raise and that many coldcaller, you can be almost certain you get the BB with you), and you get the possibility to take an extra free card on the flop, because a lot of low limit players show too much respect for the preflop raiser. You could also bet the flop, and the a free turn card or so. Disadvantage of 3-betting is the possibility that the pot is going to get capped, but if UTG is also slightly passive, the chance wouldnt be too great plus you would get more information if UTG caps it. So I think there's more to gain with 3-betting here.
On the flop there are 15 SB in the pot. If you're drawing a 6 outer you only have to get 1:6.8. So even if some of your outs are not in the deck anymore, you have a pretty big overlay. And here comes another advantage of 3-betting preflop: if UTG capped it there would be a good chance he had KK or AA, and then you draw dead or very thin. Now when you dont have this information about the strength of UTG's hand, your flop play also have become harder. You dont say what the exact flop is, you say all rags. But what kind? Because IMO it matters if its T 8 2 or 6 3 2, because the first flop could more likely have made someone a set than the second one.
You said: "I also assumed that there was a great chance that the SB held a set (what else would he coldcall with in this spot??)" I absolutely dont see where you base this on. Why would he have a set? Just because he coldcalls and bets out?
I think you should have called the flop bet, you might even want to raise, if your opponents are passive, and you have a strong indication that no-one is holding an overpair or hit the flop, so that you might get a free turn card.
Hope this helps.
Did you have the Ad or Kd? That would also matter.
Regards
The preflop play might have been weak. My reasoning was that there was a reduced chance that I would hit the flop, and if I hit the flop I would like to be able to get crappy draws out. This reasoning might be faulty thou.
The flop was 7high, not exactly sure.
I didn't have any d. In that case I might have peeled one off.
But in this case I feel that with only 4 clean outs (of wich I suspected some to be in the opponents hands, UTG was likely to have AK/AQ/AJ since he only called the flop bet.) I have a clear fold.
Sincerly, Andreas
"But in this case I feel that with only 4 clean outs (of wich I suspected some to be in the opponents hands, UTG was likely to have AK/AQ/AJ since he only called the flop bet.) I have a clear fold."
Ok, let's say you're right. You say you have 4 CLEAN outs (that's what you say). Then you surely have a call, since 4 clean outs is a 1:10,8 shot, and you're getting 1:15 on the flop. So no way you have a clear fold!
The point is that I have 4 outs that can make me a decent hand that might hold up. It doesn't make me anything that is anywhere close to the nuts. It only gives me a decent hand.
Not considering any crippled outs. I might be drawing very slim to as few as 3 (SB has K7/A7) or no outs (two pair or set). Twopair seems unlikely with the cheese that was on the board, but pocket pairs or A-7s are hands that would be in there. There is also plenty of redraws.
Sure I might peel one of and spike a pair. I won't get paid of big when I make the hand when it's good. The only time I'll get action is when the hand is no good.
Add to that my read of the UTG player, AK, AQ or AJ. Admittedly, he might have the Ad or Kd already disregarded, but he might just as well have one of the other aces. I also felt that the coldcallers also were likely to hold some of my outs.
Even though the pot is fairly big at this point, I still feel a fold is correct.
Sincerly, Andreas
I know what you mean, I just wanted to say that if you have 4 CLEAN outs then you certainly have a call. I agree with you that you're outs are probably not clean, but you stated you thought you had clean outs; that was about the only point I wanted to make.
I still think you have a call here though, or even a raise if there's a good chance that you can get a free turncard, because you have such a big overlay.
Regards
i am new here....what does cut-off mean?
thanks
Cutoff is the position one to the right of the button. In other words, the cutoff is two to the right of the small blind.
i think you have to raise or fold, calling is not an option. if you think UTG has aces or kings, then fold. otherwise raise to try and get the button and elimate more callers (i.e small blind with 7-3 offsuit). now if rags fall and it is checked to you, you are in good position to take the pot.
james
I don't think the cold call was bad in this situation, especially since you didn't think it would drop anyone. AKo is not that strong in a multiway pot when there has been a raise and several cold callers, and if you reraised, you are giving away the strength of your hand, without gaining much for your raise. I think your call was fine here.
On the flop, folding is fine. Multiway, drawing to AK overcards is not that great of a plan. You will sometimes run into Ax who has hit his kicker, so when you hit your ace, you are now against two pair. Also, there are often str8 and flush draws or redraws against you. You are often better off drawing to QJ overcards when the board is 9 6 3 rainbow than you are drawing to AK, especially with many players remaining. In multiway pots, you should often just FOLD WHEN YOU MISS THE FLOP, as you will usually be drawing pretty slim.
Dave in Cali
I've been experiencing some low limit frustration recently and beginning to question if this game can be beaten. I've been playing low limit hold'em for a year, have read the books, and overall I am a solid player who is learning more every session.I play about 20 hours a week. However it seems everytime I build my bankroll up I experience repeated losing sessions where I get drawn out or straight up beaten by garbage hands that hit the flop. I love poker and believe I have the patience and perserverence to possibly become a great player. I've also thought that I may do well in a higher limit game but just don't have the money to do so. Any suggestions?
JB
JB,
What type of hands are you playing? Multiway hands or HTH hands. I play quite a few more multiway hands in LL then I do in higher limits. Six to 8 people seeing the flop you can expect multi combinations that will beat you. You mite want to start playing a more call and see style for a while with many players. Betting or raising on the end with the best hand is usually HTH or 2 players. You almost have to play backwards to go forward in these ll games.
paul
You didn't mention what the rake was. If it is a dead-drop on the button, you may be hard pressed to ever beat the game. If it is something more reasonable, you may just need to put in more hours and gain more experience. The advantage a good player has is relatively low (in percentages) and the fluctuations are HIGH, especially in loose games. It is hard to say exactly what your particular problem might be without knowing how many hours you play, the rake, the skill level of your opponents, and how you play.
However, all is not lost, as there are some, including myself, who beat low limit poker on a consistent basis. Still though, I have experienced large fluctuations and prolonged losing streaks, but after playing for many hours, it has balanced out into a decent win rate. Keep in mind that I do NOT play in dead drop on the button games, and I avoid high rake games whenever possible. My results have been better since I have been primarily playing at a place with a 3$/half hour time charge for 3/6 kill holdem. If it is not obvious why, you should read up more. Have you read Gambling theory and other topics? If so, you should know how long the long run is, how much effect your win rate and standard deviation have on your possible results, and how long you might have to play in order to come up a winner.
Dave in Cali
Last week, I was sitting in a 40-80 game next to a friend I have known for many years. After I took a nasty beat by a crap hand, he leaned over and asked, "You remember how those guys in the 2-5 game used to say, if we were playing for real money, they wouldn't call with that shit." We both had a good laugh.
Lots of people have clawed their way up from low limits. If you are that good, you can too. If you don't have the patience for it, you would be better off to get a job and save your money until you can afford to play in a bigger game.
The rake is definitely critical information here. If the rake is small and the competition is your normal crappy LL competition, only one of two things is really possible here.
1) You are just having bad luck in these games. 2) You have leaks in your game, probably that you are unaware of, that are causing you to be beat.
If #1 is true, just keep plugging. But assume #2 is true. If #2 is true, going to higher limits would be a disaster. If #2 is true, you need to step back and re-evaluate, maybe experimenting with a different style of play. If #1 is true but you assume #2 is true, at least you will be working to approve your game. And eventually, your luck will catch up and you'll be fine.
Here are some experiments I have tried that seem to work in my local game. 1) Limp a lot more pre-flop, especially if everyone will call anyways. 2) Slowplay more on the flop with big hands...usually someone else bets for you anyways....check-raise or raise when the turn doubles. Make sure the raise will have the effect of adding more money and not knocking out everyone. You want all those hands that are drawing dead or near dead to stay in....they will for one bet usually but not two. 3) Raise more pre-flop in early position compared to late position. 4) Bluff against 2 opponents or less from early position. Check-fold less than top pair or solid draw with more than 2 opponents.
I'm not intending to argue the merits of these strategies. I'm just saying you should experiment a bit, keep working, and remember, things will work out. You say you have perserverance and patience...well, you've certainly chosen the right hobby, haven't you? ;-)
Mojay
Whatever you do - DO NOT move up in limit until you can beat low limit games.
Anyone who thinks they will win more in bigger games because they will get drawn out on less frequently has got it all wrong.
Winning at poker is very tough to do - far fewer than 10% do. Even if you are around the 20th percentile in skill you will not win consistently. And if you are around the 4th percentile you won't win much.
You must accept the possibility that you might not yet be in the top 5th percentile. Don't worry - even most of the people on this forum are in the same boat as you.
Keep studying, read and reread those poker books.
You MUST practice good game selection. Try to find a game that naturally suits your style - some people do best in wild games. Some people do best in short handed games - most people prefer loose passive games. You are going to get drawn out on a lot - keep a comfortable bankroll.
The other thing you are going to need is discipline. Do you believe in rushes? Do you ever play hands because you have a feeling? Remember that it takes very few mistakes per session to go from a +1BB/hr winner to a -1BB/hr loser. The average skilled player loses more than 1BB/hr at the low limits.
Good luck and keep studying and thinking about the game.
This is bad advice. Do play at least 6-12 if you have a $1000.00 bankroll. 2-4 or 3-6 is just a crap shoot. Not playing up is letting the trash beat you. Maybe not playing 10-20 or up until you beat 5-10 or 6-12 is decent advice. Don't ever play below 4-8.
Well, this is very good advice - if you want to go broke.
First of all, 1000 is not even a big enough bankroll to play 4-8, much less 6-12 or anything higher.
I don't see how someone who can't beat 3-6 can beat a bigger game. Games don't get easier as the limits go up.
I would recommend skipping 2-4 and going for 3-6. These games are certainly juicy enough that a winning player can beat the rake.
And, as I said before, it is almost certain that this poster is not yet in the top 5th percentile of poker players, and that's why he's losing.
You are wrong, and Sklansky disagrees with you about playing up. Badger whined against Sklanksy's advice in those threads also. Personally , I find Badger's advice in ring poker to be just flat poor. He is a fine tournament Omaha player. His ring career leaves much to be desired. He hasn't had any success at the holdem tournaments, either.
I'm not losing. I'm up about 3400 for the year. The majority of this profit is at 6-12. At 3-6 to 4-6 I'm upabout about 500. Its clear that you have never played much 3-6 or lower. Implied collusion is a reality in these games. Its clear that you aren't much of a pro.
my experience is that i agree with you about not playing below 4-8. but ive always had more than 1000 too.
and wait until 3000 br , or at least some sort of win rate (if play out of salary) for 6-12.
brad
I remember I used to study alot and my results in low limit holdem games were not good at all.
ALot of my freinds were quite surprised, as they thought I knew enough to beat these games and alot said I should play in 10/20 games where my knowledge would pay off more, and I wouldn't have to fight such a high rake.
After much trepidation I did, and I started winning consistently.
I think though you need to have a certain amount of money, a certain amount of confidence, and definitely a certain amount of knowledge before you do move up.
The fact that the rake is effectively twice if not more in low limit game than most midlimit games does make them easier in this sense. The players will be better at midlimit games but not so much better than lowlimit palyers.
An important point in lowlimit games where almost everyone sees the flop, is you want hands which have the capacity to make big hands. Straights flushes, sets. TOp pair w/a excellent kicker, will often get taken down. SO hands like suited connectors, pockepairs go way up in value in games like this, while big unsuited cards go down.
Lowlimit is very frustrating, its a game of patience. But it can be beaten, keep thinking, keep looking for mistakes in your opponents play, and your own...
good luck
Here are a few tips that are a part of my (successful) strategy to beat low limit Hold 'Em.
Don't be tricky.
Always always always raise (and reraise) AKs, AA, KK, QQ (plus always raise AKo too) and raise a lot on the button with hands that play well vs the number of limpers (say raise 99 with 7 players or more and KQo with 3 weak limpers or less). No slowplaying. I look at low limit as playing against the whole table. If you have more than your piece of the pie, RAISE. It's ok to raise and fold.
POUND YOUR DRAWS ON THE FLOP. With an eight-outer or more to the near nuts you should be check raising, reraising, and capping it on the flop. On the turn you check and call if you miss, don't worry about giving your hand away. The money you make by pounding draws will make up for the amount you get run down with a nice preflop hand.
POUND YOUR HANDS ON THE FLOP. Make the runner-runners pay now. Some monsters can be slowplayed, but say a set of 7's with a 57T board, you've gotta "spark it". Make people pay dearly for drawing dead, because in LL they will.
Don't be afraid of losing and getting outdrawn, because it's gonna happen. The size of the pots you win will more than pay for the pots you lost (as long as you make them big when you have a good hand). How much fun is it to spark it to $6 with AA and win $4 in blinds? When they call your raise you are making money.
Know your players. I'm assuming you frequent a certain casino quite often so the clientelle should be fairly constant. Know them, learn exactly how they play, and find a strategy to beat each individual.
Suck out when you can. With all these callers it sometimes allows you to also become part of the school of fish. When you have the correct implied odds, draw.
Play tight. No KTo in early position, no 78s, unless the game is extremely loose passive (very rare).
No tilting.
Don't pay off when you know you're beat.
No slowplaying on the turn. Raise it now, otherwise they will simply fold when they miss their gutshot or whatever.
Finally, use common sense and fly by the seat of your pants. Think. Listen to your intuition. Break the rules, and know why. Have fun :)
Jim Roy
The advice about jamming draws is generally good, but you have to remember that you need to keep your position in mind.
Don't raise a draw if the bet came immediately to your right. That's very foolish.
The advice about raising KQo is foolish. Remember that in low limit games you have people raising with garbage but you also have people limping in with quality - haven't you ever seen people limp in with AK, and even AA and KK in these games? KQ is a hand that is easily dominated and ALWAYS has to flop something to win.
If you are playing against calling stations anyway who have no consideration for the size of the pot when they play, why raise? If they are going to chase they will do it whether the pot is large or small. So save yourself some money and take a cheap flop.
I hadn't considered the rake before but I do play in a game with a big rake(4-8 Hold-em, maximum $5 plus $1 for jackpots.) After rereading Lee Jones and Slansky I also think there might be some small leaks in my game such as not checkraising enough and sometimes playing a questionable hand out of position.Thank for all the the responses, they are very helpful.
JB
That rake is not impossible to overcome, but will be difficult, especially when you are a beginner. If the game is tight, forget it, no one will be a winner in the long run. You need to play pretty darn well to overcome this rake, and the game needs to be pretty darn good. I started in atlantic city where the rake on 2-4, 3-6, and 5-10 holdem is 10% to 4$, no jackpot drops. These games are beatable, especially when they are really loose. However, now I play with a 3$/half hour time charge in a 3-6 kill game, and I do better. I have no doubt it is due to the much smaller cost of playing.
The first approximately 400 hours I played I barely broke even, and I had read and re-read a half dozen of the best books available. This is a hard game to begin with, the good player's advantage is not that much, and the rake is a significant barrier. After I gained a whole bunch of experience, I started to win more consistently. When I moved to cali and found the room with the much lower rake, I did even better, once I adjusted to the games out here.
Fix those leaks if you want to have any chance of beating such a high rake. Keep studying and reading.
Dave in Cali
3-6 sucks and 4-8 isn't much better. Recently, I've had AJs in BB run down by 4-3o (UTG) with a flop of J-7-6, AA beat by 6-2s, flopped set of 8's run down by 2-5o, KK beat by A-little(offsuit), etc. For all of these hands (and many others), these morons called my preflop raises.
I've seen Q-2o (in mid position) call bets all the way to the river with a board like A-K-9-7-2, and WIN with his deuces(I wasn't in the hand)! K-5o in mid position fills up on the river, after turning trip K's. Absolute trash beating solid hands.
Yeah, yeah, I know -- these guys will give back their chips in the long run. But in the long run we're all dead!! How can you tighten up against this kind of garbage? I'm thinking of playing 10-20 so at least I'll lose to better hands, right? Or will I see the same kind of crap hands?
wow, a lot of good comments in this string. i agree with 'Pro' about not raising preflop too much, especially if everyone will call anyways. i usually limit my preflop raising to AQ, AK, AA, KQ, KK, QQ, and sometimes JJ. suited or unsuited. this is pretty much to protect a hand that i may flop. this way i can bet when i hit top pair top kicker, and people will respect that bet and not draw out on me as much. but any other hand is not strong enough that you can put in those preflop raises because people are going to call these raises in low limit games, so you want to put in raises that you want people to call. (i hesitate to raise JJ because overpairs are a whole lot more likely, and i have had too many times where JJ doesn't do well). but raise your AQ and AK when you flop an A because the A7 and A4 will call you all the way. sometimes they will make a second pair with their kicker, and sometimes you will make one with yours, but they won't necessarily know when their second pair is good and can't always extract the maximum from you when you have it whereas you know your top 2 pair are good, and can raise and reraise with them. but i do agre with 'Jim Roy' about putting in the maximum bets when you have the best hand. i mean, yes, there is always the risk that you will chase people away, and you should consider position when making raises, no matter what, but on average this is low limit where the main weakness is overcalling. a whole lot of it. if your raises aren't going to get many people out when you have a good hand you don't want to get outdrawn, then they are going to get the money in the pot when you have the best of it as well, so don't be afraid to put in raises. i had a situation where i had AQ and the flop was AK3. i checked, someone bet, there was a raise, and i just called. everyone called the raise. turn is A and i bet, 1 guy drops, 1 guy raises, everybody calls, and so do i. river is A! nobody had an ace at all! i am last to act, and first to act bets!! 2 others call!!! and i raise, they all call the raise!!! i turn over my ace, and i see one hand with a king in it, one hand with pocket Queens, and and the last guy didn't even turn his hand over. how's that for super loose overcalling? if there are 1 or 2 agressive or just wild players who like to jam it up preflop, then i love sticking in there with suited connectors, even as low as 45, because the odds will be there to draw if i flop a draw, and the flop always changes things for these guys. especially if you know they will cap it with hands like pocket 4's or K7 offfsuit. when you play T9suited and flop comes A78 with the ace and the 8 in your suit you have monster draws that they will still bet all the way with their Axoffsuit. even a 78 in that spot would be a huge made hand already that even the AK would have to pay off.
I loved this thread. I'm a beginner with about 30 hours of live play experience and am down $200. I read lee jones and sklansky and krieger's "more hold'em excellence" and was frustrated that i couldn't beat what i see in A.C. casinos as terrible $2-$4 players (I try to play tight/aggressive but just started to get it down somewhat correctly my last session).
So basically i've learned that to beat these 2-4$ "BINGO" games (%10 rake), it's okay to take a risk and try for a check-raise in early position with top pair good kicker or better against 4 or more opponents. If i've got top pair with good kicker and it should unfortunately get checked thru (and i've given everone a free card) then should i just check and call with a bet in back of me on the turn or do i raise or do i fold?
Also, I'm still a little green when it comes to Jim Roy's advice about jamming up my come hands on the flop with regard to my positon. If i've got an open end draw or four flush (8or 9 outs) am i to understand that in order to use the free card play that i must check-raise these hands in early position and raise in late positon but to only call when i'm in middle? What about two overcards with the nut gut-shot draw?
I've got Conjelco's Casino Adventure pack for the Mac and play Hold'em on it and can beat the simulation 10-20$ game for (whatever thats worth) but get confused when i play 'bingo games' in A.C. because of the different style of play. I wish they had Texas Turbo for the Mac! Anyway, i won't consider myself a serious player until i can beat the live $2-4$ "bingo" games for 1bb/hr. Is that a reasonable goal with a 10% rake in A.C. casinos? From what i can gather from everone's comments it is reasonable, but not easy.
I can see after reading everyone's comments that i've been way too hard on myself (i thought that if i read a book i should win right off the bat!!!!). So only 5% of players achieve 1BB/Hr+ status? That atleast makes me feel much better! Thanks to all for your helpful comments.
Lets say you are playing a player who refuses to raise without the absolute nuts, and I mean the ABSOLUTE nuts.
eg. In this session:
Weako check called a board of 446,Q,A with 74s.
Weako called a board of 88T,4,2 with A8s, including checking last to act on the river.
Weako check called a board of JJT,4,J until raising the river with QJs.
Weako check called a flushed board with the K-high flush, including checking around the turn heads up.
Weako check called a board of AJ5,8,3 with AJ.
How can you play against someone like this? It's somewhat like a player who power bets their draws and made hands similarly; its difficult to tell if they have a hand or a draw, so you aren't sure whether or not to raise or call. In this case, they are check calling their draws and their made hands, so you can't tell which one they have when they call you. They give you no information and what's worse, you feel like you are in control of the hand by leading the betting and then they roll over what was obviously the best hand all the way on you. It seemed to affect some players at the table, and a number made comments along the lines of "Why don't you bet your #$!&#% hand", etc. Weako never really gave an explanation, but simply said "I don't like to raise or bet unless I am sure I have the nuts". Weako made one preflop raise all night: AA.
On the one hand, weako didn't charge people to draw, but on the other hand, people started being afraid to charge weako to draw, as weako was turning over big hands that weako had refused to bet. Weako succeeded in killing the action on the table because people started becoming hesitant to bet if weako was in the hand. I'd guess that weako-involved pots were generally 3-4 BB lower than non-weako-involved pots.
Any thoughts?
Did this occur at Yellowhead?
When I was there (great action - six 3/6 tables going when I left and about 6 other games) last month, there was a guy just like that. I drew out on him a couple of times because he wouldn't bet or raise. Plus he called along with other stuff. I was getting paid off on my good hands, and stealing like a bandit when I had nothing that night.
Don't change a thing. Just keep betting when you got something, unless you can put him on something better. Sometimes there is an expression, or the board just doesn't have any real draws. Maybe slow down on the river if it's headsup.
Eric
i love these types of players.
first off, they don't charge you a dime if they've got you beat. at least you're not losing more money by having to paythem off on the river an extra six bucks when they raise...or charge you more to draw ur flush or straight. take the free card if you're drawing.
if he has a bad beat on you say bigger boat over yours, or higher flush, well that's just poker...at least you don't lose more than what you should...you win the most when he calls u down and lose the least.
Sounds to me like a frekish game, if only because weako made so many monster hands. I mean, Jesus Christ, look at these hands. Trips 4 times? Quads? Second nut flush? In a five hour session I'm generally happy to make ONE hand that big.
If you ever play with him again, I imagine you'll forget he's at the table. He'll occasionally call, sometimes muck, but probably only have the opportunity to pop one of these giant hands on some poor bastard, if only because hands like this are so hard to make.
David, you've got it wrong. It's a great situation. He doesn't charge you for your draws, doesn't make you pay more when you're behind, but pays you the same when you're ahead. What could be better. I know it can be frustrating to be betting someone else's hands, but focus on how much you would have paid had he played his hand properly.
Bluff less, value bet the river less and slow down on scary boards if he calls. Otherwise assume you have the best and play it straight. And obviously fold everything if he bets.
Just fold whenever he bets or raises, unless you can outdraw him with a flush or something. Then, if he's the type of player to call all the way with nothing, bet your good hands and check your draws until you hit. Otherwise, if he folds most of the time, try to bet him out of the pot. You should be able to figure out which street he will fold on and bet accordingly. This is your ideal opponent, but it can be frustrating when the deck hits them all night.
Where is this game, by the way? :D
Chris
This game is at the Baccarat in Edmonton.
I had an opportunity to play against the same "weako" that David mentions.
One hand the "weako" forgot to raise AA when it was my blind, I flopped trips (with I think T8o) and checkraised the flop (with plenty of bets trapped). "Weako" called me all the way with the AA.
"Weako" is my favorite opponent. You simply play normal, and you will be paid off the same when you win, yet lose less when "weako" wins.
Weako was me.
Usually I play pretty aggressively, but every once in a while I like to play this way and just see what happens if I decide to slow it down and play like an old woman.
Its also an interesting test of how observant LL players are. I had rolled over huge hands on every river, and yet I would still be getting people betting into me with 2nd pair type hands. The quad jacks hand, I was bet into and called by a number of players all the way, and when I put in the raise on the river, I was called anyways. Add to this that I was not hiding what I was doing; when anyone asked why I didn't bet my hand, I would say "I didn't have the nuts".
So anyways, after about 3-4 hours of playing this way, I started playing a bit more normal, and I saw one of the most shocking things I'd ever seen. Playing 83s from the BB, I made a flush on the turn and checkraised a field of 6 players. They all folded! I have never seen a checkraise clear out a 3-6 field in my life, and certainly not a field of 6 players.
So, I went back to playing normal style (almost) at this point and did ok.
I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from this session. On the one hand, there were a lot of times I could have bet. But on the other, there were a lot of times I would have pushed out the field with my usual betting patterns, and there were a bunch of hands where I would have lost more pushing my draws. I found it an interesting excercise in low variance play, but its a bit dull too...
I find these players extremely irritating to play against, I too am thinking "why don't you bet your own #$%&* hand!!!!!!!!!!". However, they are simply allowing everyone to draw against them very cheaply, and they are never extracting anything near what they should be when they have a strong hand. In other words, they are not charging YOU what they should when they beat you. So despite the fact that they are irritating to the point where you just want to place a six pack of dynamite under their chair and light it on fire, they are actually doing you a favor.
If you MUST make a crass comment to them, I would say something like "thanks so much for letting me draw against you cheaply and not extracting what you should have when you flopped a very strong hand, your strategy of "checking and calling your way to victory" is obviously far superior to my little ol' betting strategy". Better yet, say something that will make them think that their excessively timid play is actually good strategy. Or better still, just don't say anything. Let them continue playing that way, they are playing BADLY, and those are the type of players you want to play against.
I feel your pain though, I actually have a great deal of contempt for people like this, not just at the poker table, but in real life too. They are so incredibly conservative that they NEVER take any chances in life AT ALL. They are so timid that they can't even manage to put their stupid minivans in gear unless there is no one coming for at least a half mile in both directions, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE MAKING A RIGHT HAND TURN!!!!! They spend their entire life making the most conservative plays and investments possible. One such person I knew kept all their money in a simple savings account for more than fifty years. They ate generic foods and recycled their #$%&* coffee grounds to save money!!!!! I doubt they ever ate a porterhouse steak in their life. They finally passed on with more than a quarter million dollars in the bank. They never enjoyed their money, they were too conservative to take such a risk. Ironically, had they made better investments, they probably would have been a multi-milliionaire. But to do this, they would have had to take risks, which they completely weren't willing to do, no matter what. Everything had to be ABSOLUTELY SAFE. They don't understand the science of risk taking, and even if they did, they would not have had the stomach to do it anyway. The good thing is that even though they are extremely irritating to play poker against, they are still bad players, and they still don't cost you nearly what they should when they beat you.
One strategy you might sometimes use against them is to check when you sometimes would have bet. If they will simply call you anyway, sometimes you will save money this way. This is especially effective when they are in a hand where there are no obvious draws and they call your flop bet. Example: You raise first in, middle position, with AJo and Captain Conservative cold calls you, as does one other player. The flop comes A K 3 rainbow. You bet and he calls, other folds. What does he have? What would he cold call you with? I would think he has either a better ace or a set, as there is no real hand to draw at here. When the turn comes, it is an offsuit nine. Now you check. You don't stand to have the better hand often enough to value bet, and you know he will check if you check. So you don't stand to lose the pot very often by not betting, but you may catch a card that winds up beating him if you are behind. I might even check the river here, especially if no help comes, and the nuts is still three aces, like if a six falls on the river. You KNOW he doesn't have the nuts, but you also KNOW he will call if you bet, so just check.
Another obvious strategy is to FOLD when he bets or raises, as you know exactly what he has.
Comments and flames welcome.
Dave in Cali
lol
I am marking this down in my "book" right now....
D-a-v-i-d O-t-t-o-s-e-n...
Uh-huh. Yep. I see....
Now I am tucking my book back into my shirt pocket....
Ain't you lucky I had already posted my high-horse response BEFORE I had read your confession! Had I read your confession first, THAT would have been harsh.... However, I think my high-horse post stands well enough on its own. There is one of those people in my regular cardroom, he is sooooooooooooooooo irritating!!! I have some dynamite in my car... I'm just trying to find a decent lighter that doesn't gouge the flesh off of your thumb!
Dave in Cali
yes, these people are quite annoying aren't they? they do cost you money though, believe it or not. it may even out, because your draws are cheaper, but if you continue betting when someone else's bet or raise may drive you out, then you are losing bets.
the problem with these people is that when you have a hand like top pair, you usually feel that you should be betting rather than giving out free cards. However, if you are being called by weako, sometimes you are behind (and have been the entire hand). It can be hard to tell sometimes, especially if weako is loose and draws a lot. They can be near impossible to read, and sometimes you just have to bet anyway, even though they may be checking a better hand.
is what I was experimenting with that night. Now, most of the time I don't play like this, but sometimes Im feeling mellow and just want to relax a bit after a tough day at work and I play "grandma style". I'm usually amazed that it works pretty well. I find that generally it leads to my stack staying right around the buy in most of the time, and calms the whole table down (kind of like a maniac can jazz the whole table up).
On the one hand I didn't win pots that were as big as they might have been sometimes. But then again, I didn't lose pots as big as they could have been either. Plus the added benefit of getting that oh so elusive "respect" at the 3-6 table. When you finally do make a bet, its bye bye field. I think its tough if weako is playing reasonable starting hands and calling with good hands; top pair or open ender or four flush only or better only. I might keep trying it a bit...its kind of fun actually.
My usual response when weako shows me Kings full vs my Jacks up is to raise my eyebrows, muck my cards in shame, and say "Wow, nice hand!" (without being patronizing, because that's my honest response!)
What I don't say but think in my head is that it would have cost me a lot of money had it been a more aggressive player.
When I first started poker I too was extremely irritated by this kind of play. Now I don't see it like that any more. In fact it delights me.
A good strategy against a loose-weako (which most are since they never know when their hand is good) is to bet the flop and turn (check the turn with a weak hand), then check the river (unless it's a strong hand). You make money from them chasing, then you don't even have to pay them off when you hit! They're soooo easy to play against :)
Jim Roy
This one puzzles me from time to time and actually happened to me Friday night twice. I'm dealt AK (suited or unsuited) and raise. The flop is Garbage. I mean complete, utter, NOBODY can use these cards, garbage. Naturally, all the loose/passive tourists check around to me. I'm still leading, so I bet. Sometimes I get alot of callers, sometimes I don't, I just don't want to give out a free card. Let's say, for the sake of argument, I hold AK, and the flop is garbage, 2,6,10 rainbow, or something similiar. I bet, get a few callers, and the turn is another 10. Now what to do? If I'm in a late position, I'll call any bet (unless its been raised, then I'm looking at trips or two pair already cause some tourist has played 10 6 offsuit). But if I'm early, do I check and see what happens? Thoughts?
Ten high, someone is bound to have hit it. Just imagine all the hands containing a ten that the tourists would love to play. AT thru T8, all of which has excellent highcard or straight value in the eye of the tourist.
Against such opposition I check the flop very often in these spots and hope to hit the turn. Any pocket pair above 6 will look you up so you can't buy the pot.
Bet it when you do hit, dump it otherwise unless you feel that you can buy the pot for the bet.
I might just be playing big slick to wimpy though.
Sincerly, Andreas
"I bet, get a few callers, and the turn is another 10. Now what to do? If I'm in a late position, I'll call any bet. '
If this means what I think it means; namely, that you will call when the second T drops in the turn if someone bets into you, then I think you've found a major leak in your game.
In most games that have a looser quality about them, AK makes money when it hits the flop. Period. If you're playing 15-30 three handed then it's a different story, but in most ring games it's just going to have to improve in order for it to become a profitable hand. The exception is when you have position in a pot that is only being contested AT MOST four ways. But in early position, with 4 other players? If you miss, check, and peel a card as long as the flop doesn't contain two cards above an 8 (unless, of course, you flop a gutter to a Broadway).
Class dismissed :) Guy
That's a big leak. If you raise pre-flop and get more than 3 callers your AK will have to improve to win. Plain and simple. Betting the flop is borderline, as is calling a bet on the flop. Betting/calling the turn is a sure bankroll killer.
Lose less with AK and watch your wins grow.
An alternative perspective. Let's say you figure this is a classic LL game where the players call too much with middle pair or a small pocket pair...they go ahead and peel off a card on the flop when you bet.
So, the flop was 2 6 T. Now, it's 2 6 T T. That ten looks scary to you, eh? Well, if that ten looks scary to you, think about what it looks like to that middle pair or pocket pair. And think about what it says to that middle pair if you bet into the turn when the second ten hits. Downright petrified, eh?
In other words, those LL dogs might call with a small pocket pair or middle pair on the flop, but they will almost usually drop if you bet with a pair of tens on the board. They'll give you credit for the overpair at the least.
So, what if somebody else does have a Ten? A good player would raise with that ten to narrow the field, but after all, this is LL, right? Now they have three of a kind, so they have you drawing dead. Would they flat call with three tens? Not in most Low limit games I've played in. Will somebody raise-bluff w/o the ten? Doesn't seem likely. They'll play it predictably and fold with less than a Ten, and raise with the ten. They will do this because they EXPECT you to call their raise. They EXPECT that your bet means "Hey, I've got an overpair." So, they won't make a futile bluff, and they won't make an unnecessary slowplay move.
So, use what they expect against them. Bet, attempting to steal the pot, and fold to a raise. That to me is a reasonable play against reasonable competition.
However, I think the more opponents against you, the more likely you are drawing dead...so check-fold becomes the proper play...obviously you would just check if you were on the button.
The one things that stands out as most clear to me is this: a check-call is the worst possible play. And if you are in late position and somebody bets into you, a call again seems like the worst play. Either raise to try to win the pot there or fold. That's my two cents....hope the alternative opinion helps.
Mojay
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I disagree. Most bad LL players desperately wants to feel that their hands are good. In this spot they will look you up with middle pair.Probably reasoning, "Since there are two tens he probably doesn't have one. He has to have AK." If they even think that far.
Sincerly, Andreas
I appreciate everything you say Mojay . . . and recognize the opposite to be equally true. In low limit, especially in the game discussed, none of the likely A,K,Q,J w/ low card kickers have been eliminated. You're likely to encounter these over and over again in LL. Against xx 10 10 you have a very good chance to be drawing against 2 pair plus an undercard likely to be the AK match you're looking for. IMO, especially in LL with 4-5 callers to your preflop raise, fold.
riki
I agree with the above posters. You are being a little to aggressive with your AK (or too attached).
You are looking for an A or K or high flush draw or perhaps gutshot. If you don't see it on the flop, don't bet as you are likely beat.
If you miss, check and fold if it is raised to you. Depending on the texture/players/position you can peel off a card for a bet. Don't be afraid to fold for even one bet if the situation feels wrong.
Probably the only kind of flop that I'll bet when I miss (if it is checked to me) is a board of say 622 as your AK has a reasonable chance of being boss (if not, you can still hit).
Don't be afraid to check. I can't tell you how many pots I've won with AK, KQ, AQ by just checking, and the weak opponents check also, allowing you to spike on the river or turn (or win with AK high).
Jim Roy
I think it is a mistake to assume that LL play in predictable patterns, and I do assume they are very likely toplay hands that a skilled player would never play. So in when you have AK and totally miss the flop and there are many player's in the pot chances are that one or moreof them will have paired. Consequently, if you do not have back door flush possibility with your AK then I think it is best to check and fold on the flop. However, with only a couple of player's in the pot a bluff may work if the right cards come on the flop. For example, a single high card, or a flop like 622 as a previous person on this forum stated
IMO, when you are playing LLHE and you miss the flop with AK, FOLD! weak players like to play any singleton ace or king. when the flop comes up rags, and the the turn makes your top pair, it will more than likely make their two pair. i have seen this many times and folding on the flop has saved me lots of money. you'll hit the flop w/AK enough times to take lots of money off these weak limpers.
I was wondering when someone would get to that. I'd much rather see a king on the turn than an ace... I agree you won't be giving up much by checking and folding a complete miss to an early bettor and a few callers. Unless the bet comes from an agressive player on your immediate left who was checked to, then you might want to raise.
You could be in danger of being a weak-tight by simply folding every time you miss your AK.
I'm just saying you should fold A LOT when you miss.
When the situation is right to draw for your pair (small number of players with probable dubious holdings and/or a large pot) then you are making a mistake by folding.
It's tricky to play and can be kind of a guessing game at times. That's why poker is so fun though.
i am headed to buloxi for a family reunion. one night i plan on stoping by one of the casinos to play some hold'em. does anyone know where the best place to play 3-6 or 5-10?
grand casino biloxi usually has several 1-4-8-8 tables going on the weekends, at least one every night and can usually make a 10-20 table on weekends, though it may be short handed. as far as I am aware there are only three poker rooms on the coast, both of the grands and the big pirate ship, I have never been to the grand gulfport, but I hear it is comparable to the biloxi grand just slightly smaller, and the pirate ship only has about 4 tables so probably isnt worth your time. there may be some others on the casinos close to the louisana line, but I havent heard anything about them. but thats about it for the biloxi-gulfport area
does 1-4-8-8 mean you can bet anywhere from 1-4 pre-flop, 1-4 on flop, and 1-8 on turn and river?
p
Playing 3-6 last night (not online!)
One raiser in early position, everyone calls?! I am on the button with 54o, so I decide what the heck, don't want to spoil the family pot, call.
$60 in the pot
Flop Kh 6h 3d
Not bad open ended. Its bet, raised and reraised to me. Huh? Still 4 players in other than myself and everyone appears to be interested in calling, so I call. Its then capped, so we have capped 5 way action on the flop.
$120 in the pot
Turn: Ad
Hmm still chasing, oh well. Its bet and raised to me, I call, reraised and capped back to me. Capped 5 way action on the turn again? Oy vey this is getting expensive, but I can see very clear outs to very clear nuts and the pot is gigantic
$240 in the pot
River: 9c
Dratted drat. I am the only one who drops on the river and its capped again on the river. I am personally very interested to see these hands.
$336 pot
SB shows 33 for a flopped set of 3's
Early position shows 66 for a flopped set of 6's
preflop raiser shows KK for a flopped set of K's
other guy shows Ah7h for a flopped nut flush draw, but probably could have released on the river, I mean, top pair is not going to be good
Quite a hand. SB and preflop raiser were leading the betting the whole way. 66 was not happy with SB for capping it all the way.
Good story. I once had 22 and flop a set on a board of 2 5 7r. The lady to my left, a friend and good player, kept jacking it up, as did I. On the river, when I showed my deuces, she said "no good" and showed 55, but the check-and-call-your-way-to-victory lady across from us had 77 and scooped a monster.
I think you shouldn't have called pre-flop, despite the family pot. On the flop, you probably only have six outs, not eight, because of the family pot and the flush draw against you. This could have given you reason to drop somewhere in the hand....
Dave in Cali
nah, with action like that, your implied odds are pretty damn good that if you hit your straight, and its the nuts, that nobody is going to slow down, you might even wait for it to be capped, or just call until it's 3 bet toyou and then cap it on the river. but yeah set vs. set vs. set is pretty interesting. and that set of 3's sure fell in love with them, like a lot of low limit players.
You really need to keep track of the size of the pot to be sure you are making the correct decisioins!!!
Your preflop call isn't so hot, but everyone likes to gambool sometimes.
on the flop you are getting something of the order of 32-4 on your call if you expect it to be capped and 4 others, this is enough to see the turn.
ON the turn you are getting (if you expect it to again be capped again w/4 others) 18+16-4 or 34-4, so with a very possible 6 outs you can call (you are getting 40-6 if you have 6 outs, so you can call).
But *in general* you need to make sure you are gettin the right price and not to continue because the pot is allegedly big.
I'm curious if there is anyone in the Wisconsin/iowa area that would like to get a little home game going. I've got a few friends that I play with now, but our favorite is canterbury, but that's a 5 hour hike. I live in southwestern wisconsin, not far from the ISle of Capri casino in Marquette. Play numerus low limit games anywhere from .50-1 to 3-6. let me know.
Brent
how do you feel about chicago? i may be moving back there from LA. also, you may not be 5 hours from the hollywood casino in aurora illinois. their lowest limit hold'em game is 5-10 though. or it was when i was there last at christmas. they have a stud game at 1-5 and i played that when i went there. i have to say that personally i am a better hold'em player. i used to be decent at stud but i have only played for maybe an hour since i have been out here, and my game is off. plus i have probably played 60 - 70 hours (maybe more) since i have been here and i don't play everyday or even every week.
That's a possiblitity for us. I think it's about 3 to 4 hours to Chicago. Maybe we could find a place in between somehow. If you had others with you, and a decent size game (money involded) then I don't see how i could turn it down, you know, with no rake or tokes :)
my email is sheckler@hotmail.com if you ever want to let me know of a game. Thanks for the reply
Brent
$3-6 typical loose game
In the game I play, most players are loose and there is not a lot of raising going on after the flop (except for me, of course)
I am in late position and limp in with KT offsuit after 3-4 callers.
Flop: T 6 2 rainbow
There is a bet and two callers, I raise. Was this a good play??? I bought the button but I don't have top kicker with my top pair??
The original better makes it three bets and the two callers in between us fold. I call the third bet and we are heads up now. Should I have called the third bet or folded??? I definitely suspected I was against a set.
Turn card: K
This gives me top two pair. He bets I call.
River: another K (which gives me the lock)
He bets and we raise eachother back and forth until he has no chips left ...
Turned out he had made trip 10's on the flop and he was steaming after the hand and the entire table decided I should have folded on the flop.
So, should I have?
Thanks, JM
Nah. I don't think you can ever assume a player has the trips based on a 3-bet on the flop. You want to slow down, but this just can't be a guaranteed fold. In LL games, I've seen too many players three-bet with AT-JT in this situation.
Besides, most players with top set in that situation would probably slowplay or check-raise becuase the board is so raggedy. Betting out actually would indicate to me less strength, and I would have been a bit surprised to see the TT on the end. You got lucky, but I think your play was not unreasonable.
More information would have to be available before I lay that down on the flop.
Mojay
I wouldn't sluff this off as quickly as mojay. This is actually a tough spot and I think you're right to stop and think this one out.
When a typical player 3 bets a flop of T62r out of position, it's usually trouble. Granted, many would slow play a set as Mojo said, but you shouldn't be blind to the other end of the spectrum and not at least ask yourself... What the kind of hand(s) can this guy playing?
If it's AT you've got 3 outs to a king with 11 bets in the pot (assuming the 4 limpers). Would he play T6s, 62s? Would he have limped with JJ and be 3-betting an overpair? (of course, T6s,62s and JJ are all better for you than AT or a set)
I think this is very player dependent. Certain players I would fold against without even putting in the last bet on the flop. Against others, I'd grit my teeth and hang in there. Once you turn two-pair however, I think you're stuck. IMO-
Kevin
i have to agree with both of the responses. for one, it is a low limit game. people with 3 and 4 bet with just about anything. you can't put a player on a set here. a lot of people playing low limit games aren't paying attention to their position, so you can't take that into account very much, and they are very capable of 3 betting AT-JT, 22, 66, T6, T2, and even something like a semi-bluff reraise with 78 or 89. (that last one is rare though.) you can't give them too much credit when you have top pair, damn good kicker. and yes, once you hit the king on the turn, you were stuck. i mean, even if you suspected a POSSIBLE set on the flop, but more likely 2 pair or an overpair if you were beaten, then that king was an out, and on the river you had 4 outs altogether. yes, he had you beat, but you couldn't give him credit for that strong of a hand. i know the frustration of this guy, though. you have a super strong hand, the best possible hand on the flop, and you get some guy drawing out on you because he thinks his hand can beat yours already and sticks in there and gets lucky. i've seen it a million times. i lost 60 bucks playing 1-2 the other day because people with the worst of it by far drew out on me. i won 1 hand that i went all in on with my last 4 bucks after i flopped a four flush and hit it on the river. i got an AKsuited hand that cought the nut flush on the turn get beat by the guy drawing to the straight flush!! seriously the straight flush!! he thought his flush was good. and sure enough the river gave him his only out. i had made straights on the flop catch 2 running turn and river cards to make top pair into a full house. i lost my last 3 bucks on pocket aces that the UTG raised preflop, and i 3bet it hoping to drop a couple people. well, a 3bet cold-caller with 6-2 offsuit hit a set of 6's on the flop, and i sure as hell couldn't improve. so don't feel bad for hitting your hand, but don't complain when it happens to you. after all, we all make and lose hands on the river all the time, right? i mean we wouldn't play without the river card, or otherwise we'd all be complaining about getting beaten on the damned turn all the time...
"they are very capable of 3 betting AT-JT, 22, 66, T6, T2, and even something like a semi-bluff reraise with 78 or 89."
Baggins:
To be honest, I don't have much experience at 3-6, but my assumption was most players at this level would be a bit too timid to 3-bet any of the above hands except AT,22,66,T6,T2. Even at 10-20 and above, most would have a hard time 3-betting a hand like JT (correctly so?). As for a semi-bluff re-raise, would a typical 3-6 layer even know what that is?
I had an argument with a couple of friends over this hand. I wasn't the one who played it.
Player has T7cc in the BB. Two mid position players and the SB limp. The flop comes 6h 8h Ks. It checks to the last player to act who bets. SB folds.
Question 1: What do you do here?
Our hero calls and the other mid position player folds.
Question 2: If this is in your opinion a mistake, how bad a mistake is it?
The turn comes the 2s. Both players check. The river comes the 8c and both players check again.
Question 3: Given the way the flop was played, would you have played the turn or river any differently?
Results later for the curious....
Chris
My inclination in this spot would be to bet the flop. Although much of it would depend on the texture of the game and the types of players involved in the pot. I really hate the check call on the flop although its not a big mathematical error. Its quite likely a ten will be good if it comes and that the bettor has very little and is taking a shot at the pot. Once u check call the flop once a blank hits on the turn checking is consistent with the action so far i suppose. On the river whether to attempt a pure bluff is real a function of your opponent and the likelyhood he will pay off with ace high ect. Although with the better checking the turn its highly likely he was taking a shot at the pot on the flop and i would be inclined to fire in this situation a good deal of the time.
Richard
1) I'm not to fond of gutshots with two flushes on the board. If the flop was rainbow I'd say it's an ok call.
2) No huge mistake. Atleast not if Hero can release early if he makes his straight and the flush also arrives and the action is heavy.
3) I'd play it the same way. Maybe a riverbluff would be ok but there is still the middle player that tagged along for some reason.
Sincerly, Andreas
I fold on the flop ... the flop didn't hit you so why chase the hand. In low limit games I see players check right to the river with a low pair ... someone could very well have a six.
And, your implied odds if you make your gutshot are not very good. You don't figure to make any money if you do hit it.
On top of that you don't have a strong kicker and Ace high might still win the pot.
Because of your position, you might bet into a raise on the river if someone was holding on to the eight (which is not uncommon).
I would save myself the hassle and fold on the flop.
JM
I would almost always fold this hand. You're drawing to a gutshot if the button has a king, and in that case you dont have the odds. A ten might be good, but you dont know for sure. There's also a flushdraw out. You have no high card strength, so you still need to improve, even if the button is running a bluff. The only other way to win this hand is to make him fold. So you have to be tricky, without having position and therefore less information. In my experience a lot of low limit players are loose, passive calling stations (especially at those low limit paradise games), and therefore I see absolutely no reason to continue with this hand after the flop. Wait till you have the best of it, and then let them pay all the way. Don't try to make brilliant plays at these limits.
Regards
There are only 5 small bets in the pot when he calls with his gutshot. The pot is Not big enough to justify calling with a gutshot, and there is only one player remaining in the pot, so the implied odds are not enough either. Add to this there is a two flush which he has no part of, so one of his outs may be no good if the bettor was betting a flush draw. In addition, he might not even get paid off if he happens to hit his hand. I would consider this to be a pretty large mathematical error, in my opinion this was clearly a fold. Given how the hand was played, the only thing he could have done to win the pot on the river was to bet. However, he should not have been in that situation in the first place. Longshot draws heads up in small pots are just plain losers.
1. Easy, easy fold. Your hero likes to chase way too much to be in this pot.
2. It is a big mistake to call with drawing hands without proper odds, especially when the pot is small and your draw is not even to the nuts, or even close (flush kills you).
3. I would not be in this hand on the river. If I accidentally hit call on the flop and gotten a free look at the river, I might consider betting because my check-call could be construed as a second pair but chasing hand. I would have to know a bit about the other player. If they were a calling station I would check.
KJS
nt
this is a folder on the flop. if there were more people in, and maybe the flop was raised by the big blind then maybe the odds are there. but since your pal was already there, then lets see what he can do. first, what kind of player is the bettor? is he somebody who would take a shot at the pot? or just somebody who would only bet a K in this situation? if he would try to take the pot, then a bluff raise on the flop might mork, especially if you come firing on the turn and the river. if he is somebody that might fold at all, and your table image has been such that he doesn't have a good reason to think you are bluffing, then it might be a good idea to try and pick up the pot here. besides, if it doesn't work then you are getting good advertising. more people will be inclined to call your 'bluffs' where you bet and raise every time there is action to you, and you will get paid off more. plus knowing you have this table image forces you to play tighter because you know now the table is that much more likely to call you, so unless you can bet for value, don't bet. the pair of 8's might very well be good. and who knows? mayber this guy was making a semi-bluff with a good flush draw, and you are giving him free cards. you should avoud giving free cards, to anybody. there is a saying that goes like this: when in doubt bet out. unless you have a good reason to check or fold, a bet or raise is in order.
Gents:
I will make this as concise a possible. Please tell me if, or how bad I screwed up. The game was 1-4-8-8 Hold'Em.
I had 4d, 6d in late position and limped in with a total of 7 players. The folp came:
8c, 6s, 4h
Pretty decent flop...for not having any low diamonds in it.....I'm a bit scared that a straight could be out there with this ridiculously loose game. EVERYONE bet $4...so I raised when it got to me (not sure if that was right - My intention was to get these damn people out!).
Someone in early position re-raised. I called. A total of 4 people were left in the pot. The turn came and the board looked like this:
8c, 6s, 4h, 6c
I had 4d, 6d...a full house!
An $8 bet, a call, a fold, then I raised. I wanted to make these chumps pay! The remaining 2 players called (like they usually do)! The pot is getting big and I'm licking my chops! The river card comes and the board looks like this:
8c, 6s, 4h, 6c, Ac
Pretty insignificant river card. Could have given someone a flush, but that would be good for me. I still had 4d, 6d....a full house!
An $8 bet, a raise, I re-raise. Everyone calls (just like usual)!!! I'm thinking SHOW ME THE MONEY! I show my full house with pride. The second player mucks his cards, the third player turns over pocket 8's for a bigger full house than mine
End result, I lost a HUGE POT and never recovered the rest of the night!
Did I play this incorrectly? Any help from the professionals here would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Jeff Cooper St. Louis, MO
Jeff,
I don't think that you screwed up that bad. The only thing you could do is ask yourself 'why is he raising me on the river?' and even then you might think that its because of the flush, and you would correctly reraise him.
I think the guy with the set of eights/full house should be asking himself this question, he probably left some money on the table this hand.
They say, 'If you flop a set and lose and it doesn't cost you a pile of chips, you played the hand wrong'. Well, you turned a full house, I wouldn't lose much sleep over losing a bunch of chips here.
good luck, bt.
I'm no professional...but....
I wouldn't have limped in the first place with 46s, especially with 7 callers. The BB is the ONLY place to do that. But since you did...
The raise after the flop was decent. It did narrow the field down, and you were leading at this point. Was the person that re-raised you at this point the fellow with the pair of 8's?
After the turn, you re-raised the $8 bet(same guy?). And he ended up calling you. He was probably scared that you had a pair of 6's.
This river probably gave the $8 bettor the flush or Aces over. When the pocket 8 guy re-raised, that should have been the warning sign that you were up against Aces full or 8's full. However with 50+BB's in the pot(I can't figure out exactly how many), what are you to do? Call and get the bad beat.
Tighten up and play good starting hands. Get Sklansky's "Hold 'Em Poker" book and check out page 14.
Good luck!
You weren't leading after the flop, but it was still a good raise.
If "Everyone" calls $4 on the flop, implying that the bet came from early position, I'm surprised your raise in late position knocked anyone out. You might want to keep the pot small and raise on the turn if it isn't dangerous. Force them to make a bigger mistake on the turn by offering them worse pot odds. Also, save yourself a small bet if the turn card hurts you.
Josh
Does anyone have advice on how I can put a player on a particular "high" or "low" (with low board cards) hand in Omaha HL?
Are there any indications you look for to determine if one is going "high" or "low"?
Thanks for your advice,
Bobbo
Is it just me, or do other people enter the "Twilight Zone" when they sit down at a card table. The other day, I sat down at a 3-6-12 game at 4:10pm. By the time I left, it was freaking 1 O'clock in the morning! I was so "In the zone", I don't even remember getting up to use the bathroom. I know I did though, because my bladder is the size of a peanut. My girlfriend was PISSED! I called her from my car phone at 1:10am and she was like, "You said you were only going to play for a couple of hours!" I said, "Yea, but I won over $600!". ---click--- Damm! Now I've got to spend some of my winnings making it up to her. ---grin--- I love this game.
...and this one time, at band camp.....
I know the feeling. We started a homegame at say, 4pm and after playing for only 15 minutes it was 11pm. ;-)
Isn't there a quote from Rounders that captures the feeling quite well? Something like, "You buyin at eight o' clock and the next thing it's morning."
Sincerly, Andreas
Funny how that happens....
I started at 6:00pm last Monday at a tournament and didn't get home until 4:30am the next day! I woke my wife up by opening the garage door....UGH!
I had to "wake up" to go to work at 6:30am.....2 hours of sleep and then my wife tells me that we need to talk after work regarding my late night behavior!!!!!
OUCH!!!!!!!!!!
rf
I have also witnessed this phenomena. Sometimes it's appearance can be very localized.
For 20+ years, I have been playing cards with my childhood buddies. The stakes have barely changed since 1978. The games haven't changed much either, although I did introduce them to Hold Em a while back, to VERY bad reviews. (What? No wild cards? No "High spade?"
We get together every couple months, break out some snacks and a couple decks and play all the goofy games. I am the only one of us who plays cardroom poker and my perception of games, limits and times has changed drastically compared to theirs.
The last time we played, it was a Friday night and the game broke at 10:30 pm, after a couple of the guys got bleary eyed and said "Man, that's enough cards, I gotta get home." We had started playing at 8:00pm - Two and a half hours earlier!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was like "What?? We just started!" To me, we had been playing for 5 minutes, but in their eyes, we just finished a marathon session.
It's still fun to play with them, but it is amazing how our views of 'cards' has taken such different turns.
Hell, my homegame buddies could play almost as long as I can in a casino! We played all the crazy games and wild card games too, mexican sweat, 10 card no peek, 44 roll your own, Dr. Pepper, baseball, follow the queen, guts, anaconda, inbetween (double on a tie, of course), iron cross, all kinds of crazy side bets were allowed too! The key to winning at these games is to know what you have, and what is likely to win given how many wild cards there are. For example, I wouldn't stay in with less than four of a kind in 44 roll your own, but in holdem I might call with second pair..
The most beautiful thing about my home games is that once I introduced them to no limit holdem, we NEVER played anything else, ever again! Playing NLH against a bunch of amateurs is the best!
Dave in Cali
Just the other day, I was playing holdem, and there was this creature out on the wing...
Seriously... Girlfriends and poker can be a fiery, even lethal combination. you better spend a good deal of that money on her, otherwise you might as well buy yourself a nice heated doghouse, and perhaps a terrier to keep you company at night...
I thought the twilight zone was the explanation for the hands people play and how they play them, not losing track of time while playing!
Dave in Cali
Girl friends and Poker don't mix, even if you spend half your winnings on 'em. I was down AC for a weekend, took her out to dinner ($150 + tip), started playing at about 8 o'clock and an hour later it's 5:30 am. Go back to the room, she's awake, takes one look at me (smiling, maybe a mistake but I did good) and turns out the light. Oh well, a couple of cold showers and the weekend wasn't a loss at all, plenty of poker hours. 8-)
Stan
Hey...Wanna see something REALLY scary?
In late position with KJs, UTG (bad player who likes to raise a lot on marginal holdings) raises, I call, BB (2+2'er) calls.
Flop K54 rainbow
Good player checks, maniac bets, good player checkraises and maniac reraises.
Easy fold? I gave it some thought; maniac could have me beat but I have my doubts. 2+2er may have checkraised to try to get 3 bets in to isolate the maniac himself.
I decided that between the checkraise and the maniac 3 bet, one of them must have me beaten, so I folded.
You didn't post your 1st action after the flop and UTG maniac bet. You just wrote "Good player checks, maniac bets, good player checkraises and maniac reraises". I assume you just smoothed called the maniac then folded when he capped the BB raise.
I don't think I could have just called the flop with top pair and mediocre kicker and would have raised the maniac on the flop to try and isolate the maniac myself and to tell the BB (2+2'er good player) that you had a King. Now I doubt the BB will 3-bet with anything less than KQ. He will most likely fold to your raise with anything less than KQ with the maniac who will probably cap left to act.
So assuming you just called and now are facing 2 bets with top pair and mediocre kicker folding is correct IMO.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
Enough of the suspense! What was the result????
With the facts as you gave them, I probably would have mucked too....
If you play a K-J against a raise and hit a king, why didn't you raise the maniac?
That's the best question...
Why did you call the raise with KJ if you had not planned on playing when the King fell? I'd most likely raise the maniac and if the good player re-raises me, I'd seriously consider dropping.
This was during my session I describe below where I was not raising with less than the nuts.
DAVE, DAVE, we're talking about on the flop! What do you mean you're not going to raise in last position with nothing less than the nuts? I think that's nuts, myself! See, if you would have raised the flop like we all would have, you probably would have knocked the good player in the BB out with his 23 and won the hand. IMO, a good player is not going to call 2 bets cold, even with an open-ender with a maniac left to act behind him. Don't believe the maniac saying he had AK either, otherwise he probably would have proudly showed it.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
F
2+2'er had 32 for an open ender which he hit. Maniac did not show his hand but claimed to have AK.
Hey,
Jim called out of the big blind with 32? (I'm guessing it was SOOTED!) While I like this more than a cold-call of KJs in a short-handed pot, even this is maybe a bit loose. Not terribly bad, but I likely wouldn't make the call (unless I was running very well/full of confidence/playing like a poker god).
It was likely good for his image, however. Was the maniac the infamous Dr. Li??
Dave
Now that the gig is up I suppose I should explain.
The "maniac" was not Dr. Li, and I would classify him as a strange loose-aggressive (as being beside him I saw him make some surprisingly good laydowns).
He was directly to my left and I was the big blind. He raises and several people cold-call (like 5 besides raiser?) including David in his "Grandma Style". It's been a LONG time since I've entered a raised pot with 3h2h (hey it's a SOOTED CONNECTOR), it won't be reraised, and I have good position on the loose player, the players entering the pot are poor, so I call for one more bet.
I'm pleased as punch with a flop of K54 for open-ended. I check, loose-aggro bets on schedule, and like 3-5 people (don't remember exactly) simply call to me. With an eight-outer to a straight (although a weak open-ender) on a rainbow board in low limits I will not hesitate to raise and trap all those weak bets in there.
To my dismay, the aggro reraises and everyone dropped. That's the most unfavourable thing that can happen, but hey I took a calculated risk and lost so now I deal with it. It's not a total disaster with a good draw. I simply call him on the turn and see if I win the pot.
I checked the turn (7) and the aggro checked (fearing I'd flopped two pair? Funny that maybe he reraised so that HE could get the free card :) Then a (6) hit the board giving me the now dummy straight. I bet and he called and everyone got a good chuckle as I flipped over this trash :)
BTW it probably worked out that the maniac reraised since with all those limpers it's possible somebody had an 8.
Also David, notice that when you play Grandma style you are not speaking the language of poker anymore. When you miscommunicate your hand, it makes comparisons very difficult so that you have a very tough time making a decision. Ever watch those people who slowplayed their pocket K's panic after the flop? They end up donating a lot of chips because they don't know if they're hand is good anymore.
Remember when you shift gears that your hand reading also has to change because people react to you way differently. I experienced this last month when I played a $3-6 "off the record" like a complete maniac as an experiment. I bet with T4 on a K356T board and was called by 3 players ON THE RIVER, and my T's with a 4 kicker was good! Good thing I didn't muck because I was sure I was dead.
BTW the maniac had King-rag SOOTED in clubs. I think he rivered two pair, that's why he called me. I saw the look you'd given me after the hand and wondered what you had, now I know :)
I knew you were capable of checkraising on a draw but it hadn't occurred to me that you might have something like 67 or 32 and no flush draw was out there. I gave you credit for a better king or a set and tossed it in. Ordinarily, I would raise the flop in a millisecond in that situation (that's assuming I don't reraise preflop against that particular opponent). When I did fold, I wasn't concerned in the least that I didn't have aggro beat.
Regarding "grandma style", it's just a once in a while change of pace for me. I know it's not speaking the language of poker, but on the other hand, the other players ARE speaking the language, so I can understand them and they can't understand me. In the hand in question, the ordinary sequence of actions is that I raise the flop, you probably just call, fearing that aggro will reraise and the field will drop rather than call 3 more bets cold. Aggro will likely reraise and I will cap it, and we will be 3 way. Turn probably is checked to me, I bet, you both call, and then the river hits (actually I thought the river was an ace?). You likely put me on something like AK or bigger, and try for the checkraise and it doesn't happen.
Then I could have written an entirely new post: "How a bunch of lucky fish ran me down with 96s and 32s" (thats right Shaw it isn't over yet...). Luckily I started raising Shaw's BB every hand in 8-16 last night heh heh...
Didn't you raise the flop yourself with top pair? Why not? I see from the subjects in this thread that you responded to this question in someone else's post, but I haven't read any other responses yet. I have to say that I would have raised the flop. You called his pre-flop raise because he raises with weak hands, then you flopped top pair, but you didn't raise, that doesn't make much sense to me. When it is check-raised and reraised, I guess I see how your pair is less appealing, and I would have probably dumped it too. I would be more worried about the BB having me beaten than the maniac, but even if the maniac was ahead, he may not have been ahead by that much.
Dave in Cali
Well Dave,
Since I have no memory of playing any kind of hand like this, I'm guessing Jim is the 2+2er in question...
Given your narrative, I'm curious as to whether any others called preflop, or only the three of you. If there were a couple of cold-callers, I'm fine with the cold-call with KJs. On the other hand, if you were the only cold-caller, I'm a little critical. The suited value is diminished due to the shorthanded nature of the pot, and you are calling two bets cold with a hand which is easily dominated. Make it KQs and I'm in there like stink on a monkey, but even KQo is a little dodgy.
But any rate, once you're there on the flop, I agree with previous posters who say to raise. At the very least, it defines your hand to the better player in the blind, and maybe chases him out. You will get valuable information from how he reacts. Assuming that the maniac three bets, now you are likely stuck calling to the end, unless you are very confident that he would not 3-bet without top pair, excellent kicker as a minimum.
Given the way you played it, when it is an extra two bets to you on the flop, I believe it is time for discretion to be the better part of valour, and pitch the hand in the muck. Well done on that, at least...
My opinions, at least,
Dave
I really don' tlike the way you played this hand.
I think fold is preferable preflop than a call, if you think you have a better hand than the maniac why not reraise? You pvly have abetter hand than him and the 2+2er muck unless he has a very good hand. (he doesn't needa very good hand to call just one bet preflop).
How can you call on the flop!? you invited the diaster you got! I guess I would fold. if you raised on the flop, now if the BB reraises you know what the story is...(or at least have a much better idea). ALso is the BB likely to reraise on a draw (say 67!?), or will he only do it w/a hand that beats yours?
What is this 'i was in a mode when i was only raising the nuts.' then you are not in a mode to play poker. There are many reasons for raising not just this one!
I just sat down at a 3/6 table. Wait a couple hands for the blinds (I hate posting in middle position). So, big blind and I get dealt AQc. Could certainly be worse.
Too bad for me, everyone folds to the button, who makes the almost scripted move of raising to steal the blinds.
Small blinds folds, I call -- I figure that gives me the most flexibility on the flop. If it is rags, I can represent a typical blind hand; if it is good I get paid off.
Flop comes 9c 7d 2c. I check, button bets (of course), I raise representing I got some of the flop. He re-raises -- Uh oh. So I call -- Might not have been smart, but I got the feeling he was still trying to bully the blinds.
Turn comes 7c. Ok, got the nut flush, but now the board is paired. Nut flush against a full house with 9 7 2 on the board, I figure I probably ok. I check again, he bets, I raise, he re-raises. Now I'm worried he really had a set on the flop. So I decide to just call to the river.
River comes 10c. Board: 9c 7d 2c 7c 10c From his earlier betting I figure this doesn't really help him much, but it doesn't really help me much either. I check, he bets, I call.
I won't keep you in suspense about this one...
The lucky bastard turns over 8Jc for a straight flush. I guess it's pretty hard to see that one coming. I'm glad the board paired or I would have dumped a lot more money into this hand.
Comments or anything else welcome
Mike
You were simply the accidental victim of an overly aggressive player who caught a one-outer. There is not much different you could have done, and I would not have played much, if any differently.
Dave in Cali
You need to be more optimsitic. If you keep putting people on such big hands you won't make much playing!
If you suspect the player is trying to steal the blinds you should reraise, you have a better hand than most that would steal the blinds.
ON the flop you are a favorite against top pair, or almost any hand he could have exect a set or two pair. Reraise his raise! YOu are a favorite!
Well on the turn I might have turned pessimistic after he reraised the checkraise, oh well.
You had this guy on every street except the last, such is life.
Yep. That royaly sucks...
I would have probably played it the same way you did....except I probably would have re-raised him pre-flop...
Were you able to stick around long enough to watch him lose his bankroll after that?
Jeff
5handed online 2-4$ game. Decent players.
I'm in co with Th 9h. Folded to me, I raise and try to steal the blinds. Button and SB 3 bets. BB folds.
Your move... Call/Fold?
I called.
Flop: 8d 5h 3s
SB bets.
Your move... Call/Raise/Fold?
Sincerly, Andreas
Andreas-
First, let me say that I advise against trying to steal the blinds in a LL game with T9s. You don't have a 30% chance of getting away with it (I use this 30% figure only because that's what Sklansky and Malmuth use in HFAP), you won't be able to build a pot that'll outrun the rake, and you can't win unimproved.
That said, since you're getting somewhere around 13-1 on the flop, I might take a quick look at the next one. I'm rarely convinced that someone has a real hand when they three bet a blind steal out of the SB, so the T and the 9 might be good. But, like I said, save the blind steals for those times when you've got a hand that looks back at ya.
so GD what would you do with 10 9s one off the button in a five handed game fold it? or just call wanting the blinds to come in with you. also i believe the blind steal at 30% may apply to having a very weak hand, do you feel 10 9s is in that category.
I'd be inclined to raise with it in a five handed game, provided that five handed game wasn't 1-2.
The key here, IMO, is that you aren't going to win in a showdown unimproved. You're going to have to hit, since a bet on the flop will just about never take the pot down. However, with a lousy A you can often bet the flop, get rid of one guy, and should you choose check the turn AND the river, since many players at this limit won't automatically bet the river if you check the turn.
Also, I'm not a huge fan of blind stealing at the lower limits since you can't outrun the rake. in a 20-40 game, for example, if you raise and get called the 2 or 3 bucks comes out and the rest is there to play for. But in a 1-2, 3-6 game or whatever, that's raked 10% to 30$, you aren't going to build a big enough pot to make the rake a non-factor; which is a big concern when you're talking about marginal plays that probably show only a fraction of a bet profit (Whether this holds up to mathematical scrutiny or not is beyond me, but intuitively is seems right).
Call the 3bet pre-flop, and fold on the turn
Paradise 2-4.
Kd Js in the BB.
UTG limps, LP raises, SB calls, I call. 4 players, 8 SB in the pot.
Flop: Ks 8h 2d
SB checks, I bet, UTG calls, LP calls, SB folds.
Turn: Ks 8h 2d 4h
I bet, UTG calls, LP folds.
River: Ks 8h 2d 4h Ah
It's my turn.
I see my options as:
1) check/fold 2) check/call 3) bet/fold 4) bet/call
What do you guys think?
Check/call. You can't fold, you are taking a chance of getting raised if you bet, and if you check, you might induce him to bluff. if he has something like QQ or JJ.
Check/call - He may might have either a heart draw, a lower pair with an Ace kicker, or a lower pair. You don't want to give up the pot, or invest two bets to discover your beaten, but you are getting 8 to 1 to call one bet after you check and he will bluff or bet a smaller pair at least that often.
good luck,
bt.
Bet....He probably has Kx (weak), small pair. You don't want to lose a BB...he's hoping that you will check. If he raises and he's the type of player who's not capable of such a srong bluff , then fold against his raise.
I think this one depends on the UTG player. What kind of hand is he going to limp with? Is he a loose player? Will he call with 1 overcard all the way to the river? With KJ there is only 1 better King (KQ). I'd have to admit that most of the time when I play low limit in this situation I go to a check-call mode for the river, only because too many times there will be some loon calling me down with just the ace overcard. (or Ax who hit his kicker and just made 2p on the river).
I don't think either play is too bad. I check-call this more than not only because I want to see the hand shown down and I'm too much of a whimp to fold if I get raised on the river.
I have 2-3 suited on the button, entire table calls and I decide to play 2-3 for the first time. Flop is 2-3-5. A rock in middle position bets, I raise everyone else folds. Next card is a 3, he bets, I have a funny feeling and call. Not sure what river card was but but he bet and I called and lost to 5-5-5-3-3 full house. Should I have played this garbage hand?
In a word, no. I would not play 2-3 suited since it is limited in what straights it can make and is a terribly weak flush draw. I can barely think of a single situation where I would play this hand.
Seems odd that someone you describe as a 'rock' would be playing 3-5 in middle position though.
The pot winner had fives full, so he started with pocket fives.
I would call in your position. But that's me :)
32s is sort of a weak multiway hand. If ever there is a time to call with it, your situation is ideal (button in family pot). If the players play quite badly after the flop then it is a good call.
Remember your variance is gonna shoot up. I'm usually quite comfortable with high variance so I don't mind. Keep in mind that when you play low cards you're going to get "run down" or bad beated a lot more often when you flop two-pair or better. If this type of beat bothers you than don't play low cards.
nt
First off I'd like to apologize for using this forum to vent my frusteration about a player opposed to using it for constructive criticism. My story is about a player that sucked out on me multiple times and if you don't wanna hear my story than read no further.
Hand one- I have A,Jo on the button. 3 callers including big sucker.
Flop- J,8,9
Blind bets, folded to sucker, who calls (I'd like to mention that he'll stay w/ any draw or any pair to the end and saw 95% of the flops), I raise, Both Call.
Turn- 2
Checked to me, I bet, blind folds, Sucker calls
River- 10
He checks, I check. He turns over a 5,7o for the worse possible straight. I found this very frusterating, but bit my tounge and bent over and took it.
Second Hand-
I have 4,5c in the cut off seat. I limp w/ 6 other players including sucker (what a surprise)
Flop- 3,4,5
Checked to me I bet, All fold to sucker, who of course calls.
Turn- K
He checks I bet, he calls
River- 2
He checks I check. He turns over A,10 for once again the worse possible straight, and hitting his four outter again against me. This was the most frusterating thing ever cause he drew for the worse possible straight. He didnt even think, "well if i do get it i still might be beat." This guy is now my offiial Suck-Out KING.
Ganked
Yea...that was a bad night for suck outs! I can vouge for this guys frustration too because I was sitting two to the left of him. The guy in question was a complete idiot but seemed to get extremely lucky on many situations!
In the first 2 hours he was up around $200 then when we left (about 4 hours into playing) he was running about even. The odd thing is that most people knew him which made it odd that he was a regular who sucked out like a maniac.
Oh well I guess, you gotta ride the ups and downs. If it weren't for these people then we wouldn't be making money in the long run now would we?
On the first hand he was open-ended. on the second hand he had two overcards plus a wheel draw. He is FAR from the suck-out King based on just these two hands. The Suck-out King is the guy who beat my friend who flopped four aces. The turn was the 3d and the river was the 5d, and the King held 2d4d and made the runner-runner steel wheel. Yours is just a bad beat story.
On the first hand... Sorry I mistyped it. He should have had 3,7o. Giving him no open-ender. And on then second hand I guess the overcards could appear valid to him, but they would be no good against my two-pair. he only had a 4 outer cause if his overcard hit my two-pair was good still. So he hit two four outters on me, not to mention the time I was in the BB and he hit another gutshot (I didnt post this hand because I didnt really invest any money into the pot so it wasnt a big deal). Your freind's hand was a bad-beat and a suck-out. But please give me some credit... I know a sucker when i see one.
Well, Ganked, since you put a qualifier about reading no further at the front of your post I guess I can't bitch about the content therein. That said, we have a rule here were anybody posting a bad beat story needs to send 1$- via snail mail-- for each beat posted to each participant on this forum. Give me an e-mail and I'll rifle off my mailing address.
I don't know-- I've taken worse beats than these, so it's hard to get too excited about them. I don't mean to sound patronizing, but if you plan on playing Hold 'em you better get used to it; and by that I mean you better start finding yourself completely indifferent to the outcome of the hand. Otherwise you'll be dead before your 40.
I'm sure people have takin worse beats than this and seen worse things. I am going to say once again I'm sorry for using this forumn for such a comment. I was just venting my frusteration. And it was even more frusterating cause he was up overall i believe. SORRY!!!!!
No! Don't apologize. We've all used this forum for that very purpose, so there's no need for the contrition.
I was just being a wise-ass. Don't take it any other way.
Guy
One the first hand, he has a double gutter. It's not a really a suckout. it's a draw.
On the second hand, he should not have called the turn provided the pot was dinky. His flop call was fine.
On both hands you are least a 2-1 favorite. Being outdrawn is just part of the game. In fact, you should be happy he is giving you action because he is making a BIG mistake drawing when the pots are small and there aren't correct odds for him to draw.
A true suckout king is someone like this - you have AA. Flop comes A-2-K. Turn comes a 3, river comes a 4. The guy that outdraws you has 5-9 offsuit. That's a bad suckout.
yeah yeah yeah... we've all heard the stories, and seen worse. but did you make the right plays at the right time? sometimes you need to play a bit more conservative against these guys. aggressive, yes, but conservative. if there is a 4 straight or a four flush on board and this guy has been calling all the way to the river, and now he bets, fold your hand. you know what he's got. you don't need to show your beats to the world. you don't need to pay him off. saving that extra bet goes a long way, and they add up. every time you save a bet, its another bet you can use to raise when you would have called. or bet when you would have checked. aggressive means not only being willing to bet and raise, but willing to fold the tough ones too. ive got bad beat stories. i went through 140 dollars at 1-2 level and won 3 pots. this is over 2 hours, over 4 dealer changes, and one pot was a split pot. and i was playing good hands. thing was, i never threw away a hand that would have won. not once. never would my trash hands have gotten lucky and flopped a set, or a straight by the river. not once. i even flopped Q72 when i had pocket queens and lost when four flush cards came by the river and the lonely ace was still out there. i even had the queen of the flush suit. what can you do? one hand i won on the river when i missed a straight draw and it checked around and i had A high. another was with AQ against A6 when the board came AK3-8-3. the king on board and the second pair caused us to split. these things happen. my problem was that i just couldn't get a hand. and the part that made it worse was that the asshole who was winning was just playing stupid. capping it preflop with 3-6 suited, or worse, raising blind UTG, playing hands blind all the way to the river, etc. some of his plays worked, because they were aggressive, but most of the time agressive was not accompanied by selective. and then this guy complains when someone at the table who i had known gives my 5 bucks in chips. he owed me 10 bucks, and i had lost an all-in pot. this guy complains that we are pushing, blah blah blah. says we've been doing it all night when the floorman comes over, and so i have to dig in my wallet and pull out more $. the guy was just one of those people that irritate you, and you keep finding more and more things about them that irritate you, and youwant to punch them in the face. i never ever yell at people at the table, and i always try to keep my mouth shut because i can only help them play better against me, but i actually told this guy off later, that's how mad i was.
I think on the second hand many good players would call you down - not expecting you to have 2 pair on a 3-4-5 flop. I might have had you on overcards or a straight draw.
Hey Ganked,
One questionable beat... uh OK. On the second one, I usually go for an immediate table change. No matter how good we might be, or how well we can temper personal feelings against our opponent, I sometimes take it personally. I don't want to give my frustration a chance to fester and tilt me... try a table change.
People may consider it a weak alternative, but I can put my mind to better use by reading the new players at my table.
Mike
I've only been sitting 3-6 so far and even though I have only been playing the "casino" hold'em tables for a few months I am winning overall. I've read the books and have been playing hold'em, low limit and no limit with a rotating group of friends.
I think I'm ready for a 4-8 game but am not sure what I should buy in with. Any suggestions? BTW I tend to buy in at $100 when I sit 3-6 (rack of white baby!).
Thanks!
I usually buy-in to my usual 3-6 KILL game for 2 racks of white. I used to by into a 3-6 non-kill game for a stack of red and a stack of white. I would suggest 2 racks of white for 4-8. You CAN get away with less, but I am not one for having a small stack while playing poker.
You're not ready for 4-8.
Don't listen to this garbage. The tables are full of bad players all the way up to 10-20. You can sit 4-8 easy.
Josh
Ditto...
I buy in with $200 (you could possibly get in for less). That is generally enough to sustain the peaks and valleys associated with these loose games...
Be nice fellas. You know that the 4-8 games are not much different than the 3-6 games. I buy in for $160. A 20 chip stack of red and 3-20 chip stacks of white. Good luck and don't those clowns tilt ya.
Hi, im relative new to Poker. On paradise, at the 1/2$ table, after only playing a few hands, i get dealt AKd in Seat 2, Seat 4 is the button.
2 Callers in front of me, I raised. Next to me reraised. We see the flop 5 handet.
FLOP: 5h 8c 3d
Seat 5: checked
Seat 9: bet
ME: I called (cause the pot is relative big thorugh preflop raisings)
Seat 3 (preflop reraiser): raised
Seat 5: Called
another fold.
Seat 9: reraised
ME: I called (hmm why? very bad play)
Seat 3: cap it
All calls the cap.
TURN: 6 h
All check to the the man who cap it, he bets.
2 Callers, and Im decide to left
RIVER: Ah
All checked.
Seat 5 wons with 2 pairs, Ace and 3s.
Original reraiser preflop shows KK
Other doesnt show his hand.
Ok, I hope you understand the hand history. Sorry for the mess.
How would you have played it? My opinion is clear now, on the flop fold immeadiately to the bet.
Thanks
Rob
I would have raised before the flop. On the flop, I would have raised, and probably mucked if three bet although I can't say for sure-- it would depend on the player. You're right, though; you shouldn't have called the three-bet on the flop, as you can't be sure that one pair will be good if you hit.
The more you play, the more you'll understand what to do when these situations arise. It just takes practice. Keep posting hands that had given you trouble on this forum, and I promise you'll begin to see a profit before long. And don't despair; when I first started I lost 885$ in one session in-- of all things-- a 3-5 game, and I'm a pretty fair player now.
Just remember these couple rules:
1) Never call a raise cold with big unsuited paints (except Ak and Aq) unless you're in the blinds.
2) Play your draws aggressively when you have position.
3) Aggressively value bet the river.
This last one is MOST important.
Good luck,
Guy
thanks!
Rob
Looking for a little advice from all you poker gurus out there...
I'm pretty new to poker, but I have been doing everything I can to catch up: reading all the books, re-reading all the books, and playing as much as possible. I started off by losing a decent amount, but I learned from my mistakes and have climbed quite far out the hole. Usually playing 2-6, 3/6, or 4/8. I'm definitly still a rookie though.
My problem is that in the last 4 or 5 sessions, I keep losing on the River. I mean, everytime I lose it's by the last card. I've had everything from top pair/top kicker to medium strength full house cracked by the river. Nut flush cracked by str8 flush (see earlier post). And so on.
My biggest problem with this is that I keep getting encouraged to play the crappy hands that are beating me. Of course even if I did play the crappy J8 or K9 offsuit, I'd want to muck them as soon as I didn't flop a monster. I'd never keep putting money in to see if I catch a miracle last card.
Or the flip side of wanting to muck my rockets as soon as two of a suit or any two connectors flop. I've lost with rockets the last 5 times I've played them (I know that's just bad luck).
What's so irritating is that whenever I do play I know I am ahead the entire way to 5th st. So what to do?
Should I just always play anything above a 9 suited and see if get the flop? Or play any connectors?
I think more importantly is what you look for to realize that you're very likely to get drowned on the river. When you hold AJ and the flop comes 5s6sJc, you'd bet out and let's say you get 3 callers. Turns comes 7d. What do you do? And of course, river comes 8s. Question is, when do you drop? Do you keep assuming you're ahead until someone makes it clear you're not? That particular method has cost me a lot lately (mostly due to unlucky river cards, but I'm sure some of it is leaks in my game).
And one more question: AKs -- flop comes 88Q, not your suit. Do you bet, do you call a bet, do you call a raise? Should you call a bet in early pos, and only call a raise in late. Personally, I am wanting to toss them immediatly, lately.
Thanks for all the input guys.
-Mike
I Hate the damn river card.THAT damn river card has made me lose constantly BUT i figure it only two ways either you lead strong and have others chase and get lucky or you pray for miracles and chase hoping to get lucky...hope that helps
Suck outs are part of poker. Make sure you're using all of your options to ensure people play bad against you. For instance, if your first to act with AJ and are against many players on a board of 5s6sJc, going for a check/raise may be the better option than simply betting out. You should apply similar considerations to play on the turn.
As for AK on a flop of 88Q, it depends on the number (and skill) of your opponents. Betting into a large field is usually not correct, but against a small number of opponents a bet has merit because you may in fact have the best hand and if not, get a hand like 66 to fold.
The more hours you play, the more your judgment will improve. Until then keep studying and hang in there! Good luck.
This may help you in general, perhaps not until you have more experience.
All poker hands have relative value depending on how many people are in the hand with you, their ability plus playing style.
Most of the time at LL you are playing folks who play for the river card. So you have to adjust accordingly.
When the river card makes the hand, leading all the way is only building someone elses pot, nothing more. If you have a pair, bottom straight, small flush, three of a kind your hand is vulnerable. Whith four or more people at the river and a possible straight, flush, or with pair on the board, your odds of winning are poor.
If you are not occasionally throwing away the winning hand, you're playing too many hands. Who's encouraging you to play marginal hands, the people taking your money?
Hi All,
Can anyone tell me how much of a dog a small pair on the button is against two overcards heads up?
Thanks,
Marcus
your about even,maybe slight advantage
A small pair vs. two overcards heads up would actually be about a 6:5 favorite.
I'm curious if there is anyone in the Wisconsin/iowa area that would like to get a little home game going. I've got a few friends that I play with now, but our favorite is canterbury, but that's a 5 hour hike. I live in southwestern wisconsin, not far from the ISle of Capri casino in Marquette. Play numerus low limit games anywhere from .50-1 to 3-6. let me know.
Brent
Local 4-8 casino game.
I'm to the left of UTG and am holding KK. UTG (A super loose player) limps. I raise. Everyone folds to the lady in the cutoff seat who 3-bets. This lady is a calling station, but this is the first I have seen her raise, much less re-raise. Everyone folds back to UTG who decides to cap it.
Flop comes Kd-3d-7h two diamonds. UTG bets out, I raise. Lady in the cutoff cold calls two bets. UTG just calls.
Turn is the As.
UTG checks, I bet. The lady in the cutoff seat raises. UTG cold calls two bets on the turn.
What should I do?
Results will be posted later.
Lawrence Ng
Since the chances of her having A's are VERY HIGH, even B4 the flop, I'd call the flop bet and plan on re-raising. When the next A comes, well... I know I'm paying it off. You just can't ignore the posibility that she has AK.
I would fold reasoning cut off having AA and UTG drawing to a flush.
Lawrence,
It seems to me you think you have a rock solid read here. If you are willing to live by the sword then fold. If not, call it down.
Remember one thing. You have the present second nut hand. If the lady who you have never seen raise would play AK the same way (looks like you doubt that by the tone of your post), she is even steven to have AK. If you call the turn raise and the river and the UTG does not call the river you will get about 7.5-1 on your calls. Even if the lady has AK, she was two outs, 4.5% chance to snag. If the loose goose has a flush draw (let's make him a smart goose for the sake of argument), you will get outdrawn more than a fifth of a time on the river.
It'll take some balls not to make the calls...how sure of your read are you? Better be VERY. You were there and I was not.
See you on fifth.
If you can fold here due to your conviction she has AA, how correct was it to call two more cold pre-flop?
Kevin J,
That's a good point.
Wouldn't it depend on the strength of the conviction? While preflop evidence is interesting, a calling station calling two cold on the flop then raising the turn should bring further strength of the read.
Since we weren't there, we can't say here, but generally speaking, does your confidence level of your read increase with every round? With each round comes more information, so our ability to determine hands should likewise increase, no?
Regarding your specific question, we need to establish what hands she would three bet preflop in this spot with. If you know that, whether to continue preflop or not is a a relatively easy thing to determine. Folding KK preflop is generally unheard of in limit hold'em, in my experience, but theoretically could be correct.
Regards.
..."With each round comes more information, so our ability to determine hands should likewise increase, no?"
Yes, but wouldn't you say that with each round the magnitude of the mistake from incorrectly folding also increases? I guess this is interesting. I'm not sure by how much, but I would think this offsets at least some of the higher confidence of a read.
I'm not sure if what I said above made sense. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'd much rather make a mistake and incorrectly fold the better hand pre-flop, than to incorrectly fold the best hand on the turn with 15 big bets in the pot even though I might be a little more confident in my read. This can probably be worked out mathematically.
Kevin J,
Suppose we take an extreme unrealistic example. Let's say the opponent would play preflop as she did with only QQ,KK,AA. Would you continue preflop? An easy question.
Now comes the flop. There is exactly an even chance whether she holds QQ or AA (KK is now impossible). Now comes the turn and she raises looking at A and K on the board. Now what was an even chance is now what in your estimation? It is a 100% minus the chance she would raise the turn with QQ (x). So what is x? It's a judgement call, but here it would appear it is small enough to make folding correct. Agree or not?
The real life hand is a bit more tricky but not overly so.
In general, I agree that calling as a default here is clearly correct. But it is good practice to get into the habit of knowing approximately what the math of the situation is for other spots.
My original post said "live by the sword". Remember, the complete quote is along the lines (translated from the bible)"those that live by the sword shall perish by it."(Jesus, I believe-no Im not a bible guy) So living by the sword does have some consequences. LOL.
So live by the sword or not, that is the question.
Regards.
I am seeing her hand every time the flush doesn't come in. I don't like to make a habit of folding when there is only one possible combination that beats me, especially when the pot is good size.
How about a reraise to make absolute sure she has AA? Then you can fold with more certainty if she caps it or build yourself a nicer pot if she doesn't.
KJS
You have to be up against either A-A or Ad-Qd, most likely A-A if you have never seen her re-raise anyone. However, I still call the raise, then call on the end if no diamonds.
Thank you to everyone...
After the betting came back to me on the turn I thought long and hard about what the lady had. I was ninety percent sure she had pocket aces. However, there were already 12.5 big bets by the time it came around to me.
Assuming that UTG misses his flush draw (if he is on one) and the rivers rag off, there will be over 15 big bets by the river. Given the pot size, it is most correct for me to call her down to the river with my second nut set right now even though I am reading her for ninety percent pocket Aces. In the long run, this call is correct.
Anyways, river came a diamond rag with no pair on the board. UTG checks (????) I check and the lady checks. UTG shows pocket 5s (He cold called a raise on the turn with a pair and was drawing dead) I show my pocket kings and low and behold the lady shows pocket aces.
Oh well, if this were another player that I was familiar with I would probably have re-raised the turn especially if I know they will call raises with A-x suited.
In retrospect I could have followed my instincts and laid the hand down on the turn but I just think I would have went on massive tilt if I knew I laid down the winner or if there was no showdown. Remember the golden rule ---make a bad call you lose a big bet, make a bad fold and you lose the pot!
Lawrence Ng
3-6-12 game, players are generally loose with flush cards, but a little timid on river because of the $12 bet and no one appeared to be very aggressive.
Hand 1: AJc in small blind. 3 player limped, button raise, I call, big blind reraise(I have seen him reraising with 66 and A9s), 3 limper folded. button call, I call. Flop: 6c 7c Tc gives me nut flush I check, bb check, button bet, I call, bb fold. turn: 6d I bet, button call river: 7d I check, button check. Of course I won the pot, but I am really uncomfortable with my play. On the flop, my thought was most likely none of them have anything, I want to give them a cheap card to have something. On the turn I planned to bet anyway, unless there is a face card or ace on board, I will do a check raise. The reason for that is I am very positive button will call my bet with 2 over cards, but definitely won't bet. On the river I chickened out, fearing he has A7s or even A6s, he may not raise the turn because he's afraid of the flushes. What are your thoughts on this?
Hand 2: Ac Kh in UTG, I raise, 5 players include SB called. Flop: 5h 3h 7s sb check, I bet, one MP(mid position) called, SB called Turn: 2h sb check, I bet, both called River: 2d SB Bet, I automatically folded, MP fold. After I thought about this, I feel I may still fold it, but it shouldn't be automatic fold, because there's still some chance that SB has Ah K or Q or J, and MP probably has a 7. I am pretty sure that MP won't call with the pair. Also, what if SB does not bet, should I bet?
One more general question, when you are in blind position, a check round on flop, and the turn card gives you absolutely nothing but it's not a scary card as well, how often should you bluff bet? For Example, BB with K4o, flop A95o, turn is a 8. The table has 4 or 5 players. What if you are heads up with a raiser(but raiser checked flop) or with only 2 players other than yourself? How about the turn card gives you a gut shot straight draw?
any comment is welcome.
Here's my opinion on hand number two. You should have checked and folded on the flop, called on the turn, and probably called on the river.
Hand 1
Flop: When I flop a nut flush from the SB I would bet with the hopes of 3-betting; no one will put you on the nut flush. People will likely put you on top or any pair with a flush and/or straight draw.
You wrote "On the flop, my thought was most likely none of them have anything, I want to give them a cheap card to have something". How'd you feel when the 6 came? This board is rich with all sorts of drawing possibilities. Unlikely but hands like 67s are played all the time. He easily could have had 77 or 10-10. Most like he had something like a 10 with the K or Q of clubs.
Turn: I would have bet like you did.
River: I would bet for value. If the button had a 6 he would have raised the turn for value most like thinking you missed you straight or flush. If he had a 7, how could he have called your turn bet? Maybe with a gutter.
I know players play and stay with all sorts of crazy combos which makes your check on the river ok. It might have induced a bluff or a bet with a 10 which is most like what he had.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
Hi guyz and galz,
First I'd just like to say thanx to everyone who posted on my below thread. I'm glad to see that my post got a lot of attention and different opinions. I myself learned a lot about how others might perceive my actions in a ring game and how to classify other opponents.
I'm gonna post another interesting Put Me on a Hand thread after this one, but for now I need some guidance from my fellow gurus.
The question at hand is JJ or TT in the BB or SB. Let's assume a loose passive game, 9 handed, with 4-5 limpers BTF. What do you do?
Do you just check or complete your blind because these hands play really bad against 4-5 opponents? How about raising? I think doing this, you just compound your problem because in LL, no one is going to go anywhere. You'll still have 4-5 callers regardless. Comments?
How about after the flop? Let's assume the flop comes with an overcard and a rainbow flop. For simplicity let's say that the flop is K95 rainbow. What to do? Do you bet out with your pair that beats all middle and bottom pairs? Do you check and call? How far do you take this against your "average" LL players? Do you check raise? Do you check and fold?
Any tips and helpful advice would be greatly appreciated, I lost about 2/3 of my table stake this past week with these troublesome hands. How can I enhance my play to help give me the best chance to win? I know my opponent's style of play will dictate some. Essentially, I need to know how to either minimize the loss when I'm behind or maximize the win when I'm ahead.
Thanx. Mike
i say any time you are playing low limit you really have to know your opponents. they are usually going to be weak players. but some are weak on the passive calling station side, and some are weak on the fold anything when someone bets or raises or continues betting unless i have damn near the nuts. or sometimes they will be the kind that will chase anything, but fold on the river if they don't hit a big hand. sometimes these players will call to the river, and you may get discouraged and think that they will call you on the river too, and so you are afraid to bet, and it checks around, and they beat you when an over card is on board that matches their K2offsuit. whatever, there are lots of different weaknesses at low limits. you need to determine what kind of hands are likely to be seeing the flop on average, and then go from there. i would say in a loose passive game, if you have JJ or TT and an overcard flops, you are probably beat unless you can get the bad kings to fold, which is very very hard to do. usually people play top pair to the river, and don't worry about their kicker. so if there is a king out there, which there is a good chance of, then you should probably fold unless you are getting pot odds to stay for a set on the turn or river. otherwise, you are just going to have to fold and accept the fact that those hands just don't play well in this game unless you flop a set, or an open ended straight draw, or say you have JJ and AKQ of 1 suit flop, and you have the J of that suit. perhaps you are getting good odds for a flush draw that is the nuts, and you know that the straight flush won't hit somebody else either. like most answers to poker problems, it depends.
I'd be more inclined to limp from the sb. From the bb I think you should sometimes raise with these hands a). for value, and b). because raising only with AA and KK is just too predictable. (for this reason I think you should also sometimes raise with small pairs and a hand like T9s from the bb in a multi-way pot). However, these raises will increase variance slightly, and since I myself, like to enjoy a low variance, I don't make them too often.
On a flop of K95r regardless of whether or not you raised, I think checking into a large field is prudent. I'm not saying check and folding is automatic, but betting into many players out of position is reckless IMO-
Kevin
OK ladies, germs, and Studmuffin Dave in Cali :)
Time has come again to sharpen some card reading skills and put me on a hand (or close to it). From reading the responses to the last one, I'll try to give some more required info to help you make this guess. My play on this one was not as speculative as this last one.
3-6 holdem game, 9 handed, the table was pretty loose passive except for one aggressive player (AP). He tended to play connectors of any size in any position, suited or unsuited. He would raise with any two cards Q or above preflop whether suited or unsuited (I've played with him a lot and have a good read on his style). If the flop hit him (top pair or better) he would raise flop. Everyone else was pretty much clueless to what was going on... just there to have fun. The game was averaging 5-6 preflop callers with varieties of hands.
I'm in the BB, AP is on button.
3 limpers to AP who raises his button. SB comes along as do I in the BB. All preflop limpers call for 2 bets. 6 people in the pot. $32 after rake up for grabs.
Flop comes A64 with 2 clubs.
All check to AP on the button who bets, SB folds, I check raise. 2 limpers cold call two bets. AP 3 bets, we all call.
Turn comes offsuit 5. Puts second flush draw on board.
I bet out again, one limper folds, second limper calls, AP on button just calls (huh???). OK...
River comes offsuit 7. NO flush possible.
I check, limper bets, AP curses loudly and mucks his AQo faceup. I make a crying call.
Limper shows A8 of clubs and takes the pot down. What do I have? Did I give enough information? Let me know if this problem is easier...
Thanx in advance, Mike
Mike,
Without actually being there and seeing what was going on, given your post.. I'll put you on a A-Q or A-J suited.. (leaning more towards the AJ) Here is how I come to that conclusion..
1) Pot raised pre-flop and you call.
2) Your check-raising the flop with the Ace on board and when your opponent 3 bets it. you just call.You feel he actually might have AK or 2 pair.
3) You bet the turn again with your top pair and another nut-flush draw.
4) River you just check and call with top-pair.
Well I might be way off base here, I generally just play stud, but I am in the process of studying Hold-em much more seriously now.. Hence the reason for my posting and reading this forum.
Looking forward to hearing the results..
Later,
CJ
Well, CJ's reasoning seems sound...that's about what I was thinking. So, instead I'll go in another direction and take a shot with 35c, giving you a flush and straight draw on the flop, and the low end of the straight on the river.
ok, maybe you've got pocket aces, and are trying to build the pot while letting the (AP) think he is leading, and letting the third opponent contribute as well. maybe you call hoping that the third opponent bet two pair (which is likely when someone plays middle connectors and a 4-straight in that range comes on board.) or maybe you've got a bad ace that hits two pair, and you are hoping that the third opponent has hit two pair or is bluffing trying to get (AP) out of the pot when the board gets too scary for the (AP) to call with top pair.
4-4 or 6-6.
**************FIRST OF ALL I URGE READERS NOT TO WASTE FORUM SPACE FOR THIS EGOMANIAC!************************
I thought your first one was kind of fun until you posted the results and boasted about your great playing and reading skills.
You claimed your opponent was a solid player. PASHAW! Then you said she folded an 8 on the end to your marvelous play of 1 BB when the board was 4567, because she thought you held 89. What a joke! If that were true, why did she stay past the flop? To catch a 9 for a tie?
You got justifiably flamed after you posted the results of your 1st fantasy hand. I'm surprised you didn't say it was in your local $75-150 game yo've been hosting at home for years.
You do however, win an Honorable Mention for a poker player wannabee!
Leave your make up stories for your 1C-10c-25c kitchen table pals.
Mike, go to http://members5.boardhost.com/bet4cash/
The gamblers there will like your posts!
This used to be such a friendly web site.
Well critic....
At least I have a purpose to posting these. The purpose is to get others thinking about a certain hand that I played and see how they would have played it.
You use this website as a space to denegrate people... do you feel good about yourself? Does it make you feel like such a big man with your post. Are you the world's greatest hold em player? How about God???!!! Huh?
I don't even know why I am wasting my time replying to this. However, Critic, you are clearly a pathetic waste of the human flesh and air. Grow UP!!!
I'm glad others do enjoy a "challenge" (questionable) or just a fun thing to read for thought. I apologize if I wasted your time and effort with something that you don't feel warrants your precious attention or interest. In the future, just don't read my posts if you that way... don't lash out at someone you don't even know.
.
.
The "he" is a "she" and I'm breaking up with you Mike if you can't even recognize that!
LOL
But seriously, did he really say that a good player gave up on a big pot by folding the second nut hand on the river because she assumed he had the nuts? That just couldn't have happened.
I like your style girlfriend!
His post is still on this forum. Take a look at it yourself below; Sunday June 3rd; titled: Results; Put me on a hand. He specifically states that the so-called solid girl player said she had A-8 suited UTG. Which means she flopped an open ender when it came 567 and turned a straight when a 4 came. Calls a bet on the turn then mucks to his his river bet saying she thought he had the nut straight (which he would have had on the flop)! Besides you would rarely see a solid player limp UTG with A-8 suited in the first place.
If Mike reads this:
I shouldn't have gone off like I did calling him a joke and all that so for that I do apologize Mike. But I still think you made it all up.
No hard feelings I hope.
:>)
Critic
Hi Critic,
I understand and accept your apology. I do not like to hold grudges against people I don't even know. Your message format was not exactly what I was expecting when I came back in to post the results :)
Believe it or not, both these hands actually happened the way I explained in my post a hand forums. I even reread my first post, and after further review (yep) I do agree that she made a bad play folding the winner to a blind bet. Hey, nobody's perfect, but I was pretty damn excited to pull off a naked steal like that, bad play or not.
For my part, I am just as guilty for retaliating to your post in the way I did. We acted like a couple of first graders having a food fight. We should get two days of "noon room" apiece (no recess). I'm sorry everyone had to read through all this.
Now let's get back to the point of this great place. Let's post that info that'll make a difference in our games.
Best wishes, Mike
Critic
First off, Mike puts thought into his posts, and whether he is an expert or an idiot at least he is thinking about what he is saying, which says a lot. I personally like his posts even when I disagree with something he is saying. Even if he toots his own horn once in a while, that's fine with me too. We are all entitled to a little self-glorification. If he is wrong about his magnanimousness, the forum will let him know, rest assured.
You however don't even put your email address on your post flaming mike. chicken tactics by a scaredy little wanna-be who can't take the heat. Your post has little in the way of ideas, it is mostly flames without any real fire to back it up. Make specific, logical arguments as to exactly why mike is a wanna-be and your post might have more merit. For now, I think mike did a fine job on his post, and you are merely talking shit.
Dave in Cali
Dave...I did have some merit in what I said and also apologized for getting out of line. So please read my thread just above your doo-doo. No hard feelings to you also.
Critic
Okely Dokely. I am pretty harsh on critics, as you can tell. However, I give people a second chance, sometimes even a third. No sweat. I got a new, taller soap box this week, so I can stand up even higher when I go off!
Dave in Cali
Mike, it's difficult to accurately put you on a hand because we don't know you. In addition you're coming out of the blinds where you could have many hands. But I'll take a shot.
To pay off on the end you need at least two pair. You shouldn't have check raised the flop with a str8 draw so that eliminates 3-5/ 5-7. To lead out on the turn the 5 must have helped you, either giving you 2 pair or a draw.
I would put you on 5-6 or A-5. But 7-7 or A-3 also make sense.
Well everyone, Nate got it with 66.
Hope you all enjoyed my 2 installments and I appreciate the response.
Comments appreciated.
Mike
Mike,
I am curious about a few things,
1) Why you didn't cap the betting on the flop with your set? One of the reasons I took the set 'possibility' out of my above post is the fact you only called the reraise.
2) Since you didn't cap it , given the flop/ and turn cards, it would seem like you had an excellent chance to check-raise the turn. Now in the long run you saved yourself money, cause the A8 aint going anywhere, but you can't always assume those cards are out.
Anyways, enjoyed the post.
CJ
Your check raise on the flop would tend to indicate some kind of made hand or a super-strong draw. I think we can eliminate most of the straight or flush draws since you called on the end. Since you couldn't beat top pair eight kicker you had to have an Ace with a lesser kicker or a medium pair.
With your Ace you had to have a 2 kicker, probably sooted. This would give you top pair and one or two draws, a decent check-raise hand against a late bettor.
KK or QQ, and maybe JJ or TT, you would have raised preflop (I assume). 88 makes a straight, you could have had 99, TT, or JJ in that order of probability. I would have to have a better idea of your aggressiveness in order to know if you would bet underpairs this aggressively. I have on several occaisions.
Eric
The fact that your opponent made his straight really opens up the possible hands you could have. Any Ace, in addition to the possibilty I geve previously. The number of pairs you could have is also less limited. 57 is also possible.
You would have played a large number of hands the way you did and still lost. I'm not sure this provides a good lesson in hand reading.
Eric
you dont make a crying call here without a set, MAYBE top two if the river bettor is aggressive or clueless. even the borderline maniac laid down top pair top kicker.
nt
Well Mike at least you got one thing in your post right… I see at least one person on this forum is paying attention!
My read: You had a weaker ace than AP, perhaps ATs, but the A8 hit a three outer on you. You may have had the flush draw to go with it, perhaps you had AcTc.
Dave in Cali
Hey all,
Got a question for all you low limit gurus out there. Suppose you are playing in a 9 person 3-6 or 4-8 game that has been semi-tight aggressive. The good players in this game will raise with wired pairs JJ or better as well as AK suited or offsuit no matter what their position or previous action.
You are sitting in the BB with a medium suited connector such as 98, T9, or JT. There is a raise NUTG from a good TA player. There are 3 cold calls, then the button makes it 3 bets. The small blind passes and you're next. Assume everyone who put money in so far will call (whether correct or not). Should you:
a) Fold and get on to next hand? b) Call 3 bets cold, knowing the action will probably be capped? Then put in the 4th bet after you see who caps it? c) Cap the action yourself?
I'd really like to hear how different people would consider these options... because I think there is merit in all 3 of these choices under different conditions.
My personal choice would be choice b). I would play under the "right" (stress right) conditions (good table image, profitable night, etc), and see who was really serious about their hand. In a hand such as this, I think most of the people are going to have cards that the others need in the pocket and therefore counterfeit one another.
Of course if the flop comes 522o, or any other unfavorable flop, I'll fold. In situations such as this, my criteria to continue postflop would be to flop 2 pair, trips, the nut straight, or draw to the nut straight. A flush draw would probably be OK but by no means a guaranteed ticket to showdown. Any overcards (especially a K or an A) would probably put a damper on my action too.
Question is, are you getting the correct implied odds to continue with a hand such as this after the preflop action with a favorable flop? Is a preflop call justified by 6 players? Are you maximizing a possible $$$$ making opportunity through a decent read or are you just throwing $$ toward a speculative hand in bad position?
Comments and thoughts are much appreciated. Mike
PS: In the actual play of this hand, I had T9 suited and took option b). The action got capped by raiser NUTG. I flopped a draw to the nut straight plus a flush draw (873). Neither one got there. Winner was NUTG with KK who made 2 pair after a 2 on the turn and 3 on the river. Don't let this result influence your decisions. I'm more interested in the preflop thoughts and discussion.
a) fold - there has to be a better place to get involved. Next hand.
good luck,
bt.
my god, if you are exciting to fold a flush draw, after calling a cap preflop, and then only continuing on with big draws, you are pissing harder than an elephant who just gulped a bottle of Gatorade.
Mike...I play medium stakes live and online but do spend quite a few hours a week at the lower limits online as well. This is an easy fold, especially when you think it will be capped. Yes these are the sort of hands where you want to play with several players involved. However, this is not the time to gamble that you're going to hit the flop big or a big draw. These are the hands you should prefer to either limp or call 1 small bet in a multiway pot. For me to call 2 more bets cold from the BB I would have to have QQ, KK, AA or AK suited. And depending how well I knew my opponnents maybe just AA or KK. Then I would cap. I'm also sending you an email commenting about your other post.
Kind Regards,
Gene (holdemdude)
I would be reluctant to play drawing hands like 98s or T9s for more than two bets, but if conditions were ideal I might occasionally play them. You would be better taking the flop with a small pair than 98s in a multiple bet multiway pot because they are easier to get away from if you miss the flop. In an aggressive game, suited connectors are not as valuable because you are often charged a lot to draw.
Dave in Cali
Against 6 others you are getting either 19-2 (if it doesn't get capped), or 25-3. Seems like not that bad of a call. Granted high variance... As you are now are going to be forced to chase some thin draws, on the flop but ....
If you are going to call 2 more bets or possibly 3 preflop you have be prepared to call quite a few things more down on the flop, than you suggest. You need to figuure out the odds you are getting form the pot and proceed accordingly etc....
If you are going to fold as easily as you suggest on the flop definitely fold preflop and save alot of money!
fold. you cant lose what you dont put in. however, poker is part of "gambling", thus, you can occasionally pick your spots to vary your play.
Just wondering if you guys who have played in Atlantic City could offer insights regarding the best places to play. I am lookng to play Texas HE 2/4 up to 5/10, most likely 5/10. Which casino's have easier tables? Which casino's offer the best rake? Anything to avoid? Any general advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance.
The games are easier and more plentiful at the Taj and the floor makes less decisions favoring the regulars.
I'm a beginner and won $40 and $30 respectively on the second and third sessions that i ever played holde'm at Harrah's. I'm not that good, but when i play at Harrah's i break even or do well. There's a pretty juicy "home-type" game at Harrah's that is played by weak regulars every Wednesday but it's only $2-4 (it starts at 10 am). You might want to check out their Saturday nite game too, but i haven't been. The best game i've ever been in was at Harrah's on a tuesday, but there's no gaurantee they'll have a game going on that day.
I hear there's a small poker parlor at the Sands. I've heard repeatedly that all the semi-pros like to play at the Taj. The regulars at the Tropicana offer me a challenge as i don't do well over there, but like i said i've only got about 30-40 hours under my belt and they seem pretty beatable.
I usually play at the Taj. I haven't played anywhere else in AC. At the best of times, the Taj will have 3 or 4 5-10 games going. You can thus pick which game you want to sit in. The 5-10 rake at the Taj is 10% max $4.
Good luck.
Just wondering if you guys who have played in Atlantic City could offer insights regarding the best places to play. I am lookng to play Texas HE 2/4 up to 5/10, most likely 5/10. Which casino's have easier tables? Which casino's offer the best rake? Anything to avoid? Any general advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks in advance
Poker in AC is pretty much the same, except Taj has more tables to choose from. The games differ from time to time and casino to casino. The only two places that had Holdem when I was there were Trop and Taj. Both casinos generally have good or even great games at the low limits. Taj generally has more games going, and therefore you might be more likely to find a good game there. However, Trop is much better run (by FAR, IMO), and you will have a better overall playing experience there. The 5-10 games at either place vary from easy to not very easy. It depends on who is in the game, time of day, etc…. Scout your games well, you will have choices, so don't hastily decide. Make sure to get your parking receipt when you leave one casino to go to another and save yourself 2$ for the "gateway tax". Sands had 7CS when I was there. The 1-5 had a 25c ante, which I liked. They spread 5-5-10-10-15 stud and 10-10-20-20-30 stud, both of which had a slightly lower rake structure. I liked playing at Sands. I loved the Trop and hated Taj.
Dave in Cali
Loose 9 handed 4-8 game.
Two seats in front of the button, I hold As - Js. Three limp in front of me, I limp, I dont mind if more come in behind me, and I really would hate to be three bet with this hand.
What do you think about limping with this hand? If I raise, I'm more likely to win the button, and probably have a better chance of taking control of the hand on the flop.
The Button raises, the blinds fold and the limpers and I see the flop ($41, $4 rake and $1 jackpot).
Flop - Kd - Qh- Qs.
All check to the button who bets. Two limpers call and I call. ($57 in the pot)
Turn - Tc
All check to the button who bets, both limpers call, I CALL! (on a scale of 0 - 10 how weak is this?)($89)
River - 4c
check check check check
both limpers show JT, button had AK.
1) If I raise the turn, and get reraised should I continue?
2) Once I call on the turn, should I bet the river, or should I still try to checkraise the river?
Thanks in advance.
good luck,
bt.
I think your pre-flop limp and check/call on the flop is reasonable, but you probably should have bet the turn and river yourself.
The reason I'm not thrilled with check/raising the turn (or river for that matter), is that you may already be beat and/or drawing dead.
Well I think you made some mistakes here.
1) Limping with AJs. You should raise! You very probably have the best hand. It seems people underestimate how much money you make in the long run by making inferior hands pay double preflop. Plus you need to pressure the blinds with a strong hand like this. Plus it is a huge advantage to establish yourself as the leader early on, especially with late position. It will result in your opponents making mistakes on later streets. It sets up bluffs and free cards. Don't worry about being 3 bet. If you have to put in another bet so be it. So will the players with their limping hands, else they will have to abandon the money they have put in. Anyway, a 3 bet will only occur maybe 10% of the time if you are regarded as a strong player.
Now its hard to analyse what happens next because the hand would have played out differently. Maybe AK calls or reraises. Dunno. So lets look at how you played given the preflop limp.
2) Not a good flop for you! Obviously you must check to the button who probably has a strong 2 pair, trips, a full house, or even quads. Of course the button bets and the question is should you call or fold? You basically need a 10 on the turn. 11-1 or so. Even then you may be drawing dead or to a powerful redraw. It's a fairly close call and I don't think you'd be far wrong to fold here. I think it may depend on your assessment of the buttons raising standards.
3) Ok you call and hit your 10 on the turn. I would checkraise here if I was convinced the button would bet again. If there was any doubt in my mind as to the button bet I would bet out. I do not want to give those face cards a free draw to split the pot with me. If the button reraises you should call him down unless perhaps he is a totally passive ROCK that would never 3 bet without a full house.
4) Of course if you checkraise and are just called you should bet the river because your straight is probably good. You barely had the odds to draw for it, so it doesn't make sense to hit it and them give everyone a free ride. If you decided to bet out on the turn and was raised, I would check the river and call if the button bets.
Just my humble opinion. Others may have some other ideas.
Thanks for the response,
I think that AJ suited is one of those hands thats on the border, sometimes you raise with it, sometimes you don't. In this case, I think that I knew that the button was going to raise, and so I decided to limp, to make sure that I had as large a field as possible.
I thought the flop decision was the easiest choice I had to make this hand, the pot was offering me 12-1 + implied odds if I made the hand, I could hit a ten for broadway, and I had a backdoor nut flush/straight flush draw and my call would close the betting. So I thought I had a slight overlay, and the implied odds would cover the chances that I was already drawing dead or beat on the river.
I originally thought that my big mistake was not checkraising on the turn, (which in retrospect would have made me the largest profit on this hand), But I now think that the best play would have been to bet out on the turn, and if I was called, bet again on the river. If I was raised on the turn, call, and check/call on the river.
thanks, and good luck,
bt.
Well .. maybe I'm playing a little agressive lately, but I think you really should have played stronger on 4th and 5th st. I would have played pre-flop and flop much the same way as you.
That flop was definitly not good for you. But you have a broadway draw and a backdoor flush. IMO, those are your outs, not an Ace. With two EP callers I would be much more worried about them holding AQ than QT. I'd be more worried about the button holding QT.
The button raised pre-flop -- when I see that in LL I am actually surprised when they turn over something like AK. Either way, I would not respect his flop bet very much. The calls from the EP players would make me think AK or Qx. Assuming someone flops a boat is just to paranoid for me.
To make a long story short -- The button bets out the turn and the two EP players call! That tells me they don't have a Q. Raise here. If the button makes it three bets, I might even re-raise to charge the EP players the most for whatever it is they are drawing to. The button is either going to re-raise any Queen, call with any King, or fold to the fear of the trips check raising the turn. The only hands that beat you are QT and QK. Very possible holdings, but until I am sure someone has that I am going to assume my hand is best. The 4 on the river can't help anyone -- keep betting.
This may cost some more money occasionally, but I believe in playing your hand. If you are going to call/check when the best possible card for you falls, don't play past the flop.
The books i've read say you need about 5:1 pot odds to draw to an open-ender or a four flush. I guess this equates to about 3 callers in an un-raised pot. What happens when you're just head-up one on one and you have just a four-flush against an opponent (two people saw the flop). Can you call a bet on the flop or the turn? The reason i ask is that i heard that catching any piece of the flop (even low pair) was a good hand for one on one play as well as any "good draw". Is this true?
The reason is a bit different. If you knew your flush draw was going against a pair higher than either of your cards, you would fold without the proper odds.
In a typical 1-on-1 game, you don't know that. Heck, you don't know if you are going against a pair. Therefore, a flush draw is actually bigger than 5-to-1. a) There is a chance you have the best hand now. b) There is a decent chance that if you pair up either of your cards, you will win the hand. c) There is chance your opponent will not have enough to call you if you bet/raise, making a semi-bluff a strong play. d) Oh yeah, you have a flush draw too. e) When you hit your hand, you are far more likely to be paid off in a 1-on-1 game.
So, a flush draw can be very powerful in a 1-on-1 game, but it should be played aggressively so that you get the benefit of the semi-bluff opportunity. Passive play is a recipe for disaster in heads-up play anyways.
P.S. Note how most of these concepts are based on the lower requirements inherent in heads-up play. A ring game that just happens to get heads-up after the first bet on the flop is a different circumstance for obvious reasons.
Mojay
Thanks Mojay for your insight. I'm learning more and more that everything in poker is situational.
A good draw might be as valuable as a good hand, but this will be more likely true if you semi-bluff with it rather than just call, trying to make your draw. The additional way of winning, namely by making your opponent fold, adds tremendous value to your hand.
Say you limp first in with QdJd. Everyone folds except the BB. There are only two small bets in the pot. The flop comes Kd 4d 2h. Your opponent bets into you. You are getting 3:1, not enough to draw solely for the flush (ignoring the effect of implied odds for now). The better play would be to raise here. If the BB is stealing, he will fold and you will win the pot. If you get called, you still have a good draw, plus there is no guarantee he has a king, so you might effectively have two overcards too. He might even fold a hand that has you beat, like A4, which would be best of all. Even if he were to reraise, you would still have an easy call, because NOW the pot would be big enough to draw at the flush.
Dave in Cali
I like what you said about raising in that situation. Yeah, i started doing that with my computer poker simulation (Conjelco's for the Mac) and have noticed how good this semi-bluff play works. Sklansky says two overcards and a gutshot are worth a semi-bluff bet even against more than one opponent if you think there's any chance of them folding.
Let's say it's a big multi-way pot and i've got AK suited and the flop gives me J T 3 with a backdoor flush. This would be an example of a very powerful come hand. Could i cap the betting on the flop with this? Also, if i pick up my 4-flush on the turn could i cap the turn as well? I'm guessing you'll say yes (ram it jam it, pump it dump it)? I certainly would try to take command one on one with this hand as well.
My biggest problem now is that i'm sometimes too aggressive, but when i see an opportunity to use a bluff or free card play with a come hand, i like to try for the check-raise in early position and a raise in late. It's probably better to just check or call along when in the middle though . . . right?
Thanks Dave for your insights.
I would not necessarily cap it with AKs and a flop of T J x with one of your suit, but you can certainly be aggressive. I would be more inclined to be aggressive with fewer players in the hand. If you pick up a flush draw on the turn, again, I wouldn't necessarily cap it, but you could at least put in a semi-bluff raise. In either case, you have a strong hand and you can afford to be aggressive with it, I just don't know for sure if I would cap it each time. Being extra aggressive with this hand has more merit if you stand a chance to take the pot without a fight. That's why I probably wouldn't cap it in a multiway pot, especially not on the turn, but I would still make sure it got to at least two bets each time, no matter who was in the pot. When you have semi-bluff value, you by definition must have some chance of winning the pot outright. As this chance declines, you are now drawing, so you don't necessarily want to charge yourself the max if there is no chance of winning outright.
Dave in Cali
Playing in one of the loosest craziest 3-6 games I've ever hand the (mis?)fortune of finding.
Im in the BB with AhAs. 7 limpers to me, I raise, a mid position says "ok I hop on the bandwagon" and raises, and I of course reraise, and 8 people see the flop for 4 SB each. I'm already getting that antsy feeling.
Flop: Jh 10h 2c
32 SB in pot
Well, not too bad I guess. I bet out, 2 limpers, a raise, 1 more limp to me, I reraise, 2 cold callers, a cap, and all of us call. 5 people see the turn for 4 more SB each.
Turn: 3h
52 SB in pot
That sinking feeling is coming back, but at least I have the Ah so I can redraw to the nuts on the river. I bet out, a call, a fold the flop raiser reraises all in to 8, a fold, and I call and other caller calls. 3 people left (this hand was starting to remind me of "Survivor"; every round, some would be knocked out).
River: 3s
30BB in pot
I check, other live player checks.
Curious about play on all streets here and if I overplayed the flop or underplayed the turn. Results next post.
David
The miracle running pair saved me from two different players who both had J-10. No flushes, and I dragged the gigantic pot.
This hand further sparked the table into insanity, and 20BB pots were the rule from then on.
David,
in a loose crazy game, its really hard to know where your at, and then the whole thing is complicated by the psychology of the all-in player, who may be on a big draw, an overpair, two pair, or just a flyer. With a smaller field, the most likely hand that you might find out against you is JT and the turn/river actually may have helped you.
With this large of a field, it seems likely that somebody might have ( but they were sooted) hearts, or even the reasonable KQ of hearts. The only consolation is that you have the Ace of hearts, so noone else can think that they have the nut hearts.
The other question is, is that sinking feeling AA being cracked too many times, or is it some subliminal read that you should be paying attention to.
I dont know where your at, at this point I guess yoou just turn over your hand and hope its good.
good luck,
bt.
Its late but I think I follow what happened. I think with all these players in, and given you raised in your BB and capped preflop, I would bet out on the flop but respect the raise and just call. I mean, they have to know you have AA or KK. I would assume there is a good chance the raiser has J10, JJ, 1010, 22, or some other hand that leaves you in catch up mode.
Given your reraise and the cap, I wouldn't bet out on the turn because you are going to be raised and I would rather get a cheap heart draw rather than pay 2 BB for it.
On the river I would bet out because the 3 is a great card for you and the only guy that may have you beat is already all in and a bet here at least earns you a small rebate if the all-in has a flush or trips.
a couple general comments.
1) you have 7 opponents, all of whom limped. when the flop comes with a jack and a ten, top two is a likely holding for someone.
2) by making the pot huge preflop in a loose, crazy game, you are totally eliminating your advantage over the other players. in other words, the pot is so large that the hand is now, in the vernacular, a pissing contest, and your opponents can pee just as well as you do. on the other hand, if you give up a little equity preflop, you can easily make it back on later streets becuase your opponents will make unjustified calls and raises.
the club
(2) above is about as wrong as it's possible to be. Your opponents are all running at about 20%, from memory, to beat AA. You want to force them to tip truckloads of money into the pot at this point. Ideally you'd like everybody to put their entire stacks into the middle. The fact that they can draw profitably against you later doesn't matter, because they are drawing to try and win back their own piles of cash that they so hopelessly tipped into the middle earlier. There's no way that opponents are going to make "unjustified calls and raises" on later streets that will compensate you for not getting 8 more small bets in the pot preflop. With 7 opponents you are not going to be able to limit the pot to a size where this will happen anyway. You instead want the pot GIGANTIC and then you just hope that your hand is best when you show it down versus the 5 other guys who have come to the river. Which it was!
Chris
The big pre-flop hands have a tendancy to river other peoples' good flop hands. They get counterfeited, you spike your two-pair or trips, you hit a high flush, whatever; in bloodbath those big hands hit the river a lot more than people notice (a lot more than bad cards that is). So I'm not afraid to make the pot big when I have a big hand :)
"You want a war! I'll give you a war!"
- Bad guy on "The Postman"
Jim Roy
Sorry friend, when I have AA, I raise preflop. I reraise preflop. I cap preflop. I don't care one bit how many other players are in the hand with me. Every $ I have in front of me is in the pot preflop when I have AA.
I'd rather not give up any equity on any street, and I'd rather my opponents make unjustified calls and raises on every street, including preflop.
The time to give up pre-flop equity in order to induce larger mistakes later in the hand is when you have unsuited high cards, not big pairs! If I was on the button with AKo, I might consider just calling, but I might raise anyway. In the blinds is when I tend to just call with AKo or AQo when the pot is multiway, otherwise I usually raise, even if there are limpers. I ALWAYS RAISE WITH ACES. Notice the punctuation at the end of the previous sentence. When the pot is seven way, you are getting enough to raise just on set value, so why the hell would you NOT raise with the nuts preflop? RAISE RAISE RAISE RAISE RAISE!!!!!!!!!
thanks David for calling my attention to this manner!
Dave in Cali
I like your play on every street. You have to make flush and straight draws pay, on the flop you have redraws to beat 2 pair, and on the turn you have a great nut flush draw. Slowing down on the turn when you know you are behind is definitely correct, but with 30BB in the pot, where are you going?
I imagine the JT's were mad at you for you drawing out on them. I love it when justice is done.
Derrick
The one guy who hadn't gone all in was a bit perturbed. The all in guy said something about the best hand won, so justice was served or something like that.
I like the idea of a bet on the river as several people suggested, but to be absolutely honest, I was planning a river check unless I hit an ace or a heart. To be absolutely honest, I got neither and quickly checked, and was checked behind equally quickly and I immediately turned my hand over and said "one pair" to which my FAVORITE dealer said "Its two pair!", which is a good thing since if someone had simply quickly said two pair, I might very well have mucked, not really noticing the running pair. Thats what gigantic pots do to me, they absolutely freak me out.
As was said earlier, I too would have bet into the last player on the river. The three could only have helped you (unless he had flopped a set -- in which case you're already behind). The fact that he showed no aggression throughout the hand would make me think he had nothing better than top pair, two-pair, or was still drawing. Since most LL players will pay the last bet to see your rockets, I'd bet. With the pre-flop, I doubt he'd consider you to have a three. At least you'd get something back if all-in had a real hand.
Depending on the habits of the flop capper, I might check and call the turn rather than bet. Of course if you knew he only had 8$ left, betting is fine, especially since he can only raise 2$ and your bet might get someone to fold who would wind up beating you. Basically, I have no problem with your play on this hand.
Dave in Cali
Here's a hand I played recently, and I'm wondering what you all think of it.
-----------------------------------------------------Cool!Game #xxxxxxxx - $2/$4 Hold'em - xxxx/xx/xx-xx:xx:xx (CST)
Table "xxxxx" (real money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Seat 2: Player A ($177.25 in chips)
Seat 3: Player B ($33 in chips)
Seat 4: Player C ($76 in chips)
Seat 5: Player D ($35 in chips)
Seat 6: ME ($167.50 in chips)
Seat 7: Player F ($86 in chips)
Seat 8: Player G ($100 in chips)
Seat 9: Player H ($135 in chips)
Seat 10: Player I ($34.50 in chips)
Player I : Post Small Blind ($1)
Player A: Post Big Blind ($2)
Player G: Post ($2)
Dealing...
Dealt to ME [ Ad ]
Dealt to ME [ As ]
Player B: FoldNot cool.Player C: Fold
Player D: Fold
ME : Raise ($4)
Player F : Call ($4)
Player G: Call ($2)
Player H: Call ($4)
Player I : Call ($3)
Player A: Fold
*** FLOP *** : [ Jh 5h 7h ]
Player I : CheckHere I'm pretty sure Player H is up to something, so I reraise to put pressure on him and on anyone else who might have a weak heart.ME : Bet ($2)
Player F : Call ($2)
Player G: Call ($2)
Player H: Raise ($4)
Player I : Fold
ME : Raise ($4)
Player F : Fold
Player G: Call ($4)
Player H: Fold
*** TURN *** : [ Jh 5h 7h ] [ 4c ]I know giving a free card in a situation like this isn't the most obvious thing to do, but I figured that not much good could come from betting here. Player G may well already have the flush, in which case I'd just get raised, and if he doesn't have it, I doubt he'll fold now. So, I check and hope for the best.ME : Check
Player G: Check
*** RIVER *** : [ Jh 5h 7h 4c ] [ Qd ]Whew!ME : Bet ($4)
Player G: Fold
ME : Winner -- doesn't show cards
*** SUMMARY ***Pot: $39 | Rake: $1
Board: [ Jh 5h 7h 4c Qd ]
Player A lost $2 (folded)
Player B didn't bet (folded)
Player C didn't bet (folded)
Player D didn't bet (folded)
ME bet $14, collected $43, net +$29 [ Ad As ] (a pair of aces)
Player F lost $6 (folded)
Player G lost $10 (folded)
Player H lost $8 (folded)
Player I lost $4 (folded)
So, any suggestions? Did I just get lucky here? Should I have folded to the raise on the flop? Should I have bet the turn?
Bet the turn. It doesn't make any sense to say that you're not betting because he won't fold. You're betting to make him pay if he's drawing. Assuming he has a single high heart and no pairs, he's drawing to 9 outs in a 40 card deck, so you win an expected 31/40 * $8, or about $6, as opposed to checking where you hang on to your $4 bet. So checking here costs you about $2 if that's his holding. Meanwhile, if you get raised, you have an easy fold. You've represented strength the whole way through the hand and his minimum holding if he raises you on the turn is a set - and more likely a flush.
Chris
I would bet the turn in this situation. You are heads up, and you have a reasonable chance of being ahead. If another of the suit comes you are in trouble, so why let him get there for free.
Derrick
Good hand. Player H had probably given you indications before that hand to make you put him on a move.
Player G did nothing but call on that hand. If he had a flush, he probably would have raised on the flop. I would have put him on a draw and bet the turn. If he pops you back on the turn, then you have some thinking to do.
This hand illustrates my previous response to SmoothB's "Mucking AA" Essay.
First off, you should have bet the turn and folded if raised, IMO. If he is drawing you want to charge him to beat you. If you intended to bet the river, it would cost you the same to bet and fold if raised as it would to check then bet the river.
Second, you put WAY too much information in this post. The entirety of the hand history is not needed on the forum. You could have said the same thing like this…
I have black aces in mid position and raise first in. All call behind me except the BB, who folds. 5 players see the flop, which is Jh 5h 7h. I bet and get raised, all fold back to me and I make it three bets, my opponent calls. The turn is the 4c. I check and he checks. The river is the Qd. I bet and he folds.
Of course you add in comments where needed, but as far as the description of the action, this is all that's needed. You say so much more by saying so much less, and people often times don't read excessively long posts, especially if they have lots of extraneous information.
Dave in Cali
Thanks for the advice, folks. Next time, I'll bet the turn and trim my post.
Pocket Q's in small blind. 2 callers, I raise, bb folds, other 2 call the raise. The flop is K,T,5 rainbow. Do I bet, check, checkraise? Whats the play?
You bet! There are three kings in 47 unknown cards. Do the math. The chances are very good that you have the best hand. You certainly don't want it checked around if you are ahead. As soon as you check after raising in the blind people will fear KK, so don't expect A10, Q10, J10, or any smaller pairs to bet your hand for you.
I think the tougher question is what do you do if you are raised.
Well, I bet and was raised then re-raised. I was looking at a two pair, k-5 and a k-T full house. Gotta love 2/4!! Don't worry, i folded on the flop.
I'm not writing this as a bad beat, even though I was the one that got beat on this hand. I just thought people might be amused at how unbelievable the hand that the player turned over at showdown was.
3-6 hold em at Mohegan. There are 2 limpers and I'm on the button with KJsuited. I call. The flop comes K99 with two spades. The big blind bets, the limpers call, I raise, all call. The turn comes another spade. All check to me. Not wanting to give any spade a free card, I bet. The BB folds and the two limpers call. The river is yet another spade. Checked to me. I know for a fact that neither of these players are going to lay down ANY spade, so I check.
And the early position limper turns over ---
67off with the seven of spades. Let me repeat, the flop was K99 with two spades, and this guy called two bets on this flop. I'm actually not bitter, I just thought that some of you might be amused.
Other than the time that a guy called my brother on the river in 7cs when he couldn't beat my brother's board, this is certainly the most bonehead play I've seen.
Peace
Goodie
Who got beat ? Who is the bonehead ?
Excuse me? What exactly are you talking about, Ted?
Peace
Goodie
ok, i didn't read all the stories yet, but here is a good one. im in seat 2 and seat 3 makes some awful awful moves, yet explains them as the smart moves after every hand. he's not really that beligerent, and is a bit innebriated, but i like to sit by the people most likely to cause trouble at the table because i can usually help to keep them cool and diffuse possible situations before they happen. this helps to make the game go smoother and faster. well anyways, that is not really relevant to the story: i had a mid flush draw in mid position and it ended up just me and him, and i was pretty sure he didn't have anything, and 2 high pair were on board after the river with the off card being the lowest board card: a TEN. i have nothing at this point, i can't even beat the board, but i am pretty sure he has nothing either. i bet, and he calls me. his hand is worse than mine!! but since both of us play the board we split it. how do you call in hold em when you can't even beat the board? not even the kickers? i mean thats either a really really boneheaded move or a damn damn good read. if the ten had been any lower (even if it paired him) i would have won because i had a 9 that would be the best kicker with 2 high pair on board. if the river card had paired him the 2 pair on board were still higher, and my 9 wins. but he still calls!!! that was ok though. we both laughed when we turned our cards over and the whole table looked at us like we were nuts! got a whole lot more callers on my monster hands after that, ill tell you what!!
Umm ..If I had paired the ten with two higher pair on the board -- And you decided to play your nine kicker, I'd play the board and take the pot =)
umm... yeah, you would play the board and take the pot... except that i would never play a kicker that couldn't beat the board, and i am not dumb enough to let someone play the board and take my half of the pot. perhaps you misunderstood the story?
Read Perry's Theory of Tilt post on RGP. What you have here is a highly advanced player using ITO concepts against you. I hope you didn't fall for it!
After playing with this man for a good period of time, one thing that I can be absolutly sure of is that he is not "highly advanced" at anything. Trust me.
And it takes a lot more than this one hand to put me on tilt.
Peace
Goodie
.
If that hand bothered you, there's a good chance you would have exploded by no force but disbelief at some of the weird things I saw playing in a 5-10 game this past weekend. For starters, the game featured 3-4 (the lineup went through some changes) players that saw every flop and 90%+ called on the flop. The others called with almost everything. In 12 hours of play the smallest # of pre-flop callers was 4, which happened three times. About 25% of the hands were 9 handed with me alone on the sidelines. Occasionally a tighter player would sit, but would leave for a higher limit (5-10 was the lowest limit in this room). Now for a few examples.
#1 "Hand selection is key"
I can't recall the board here, except that seat 4 called with 62o, the flop came both paired and two-toned, the betting capped on the flop and turn, and seat 4 hit the runner runner straight to beat seats 8 and 10, who each flopped trips on the paired flop (Both played face-rag offsuit with the same rag).
OK, this hand is pretty typical LL stuff, but the kicker is the punchline: on the next hand seat 4 folded preflop. Seat 10, still reeling, blurts out "you just called with 62o!! what could you possibly be folding this time?!?"
Seat 4 replied "72 offsuit, I can't call with that, I'm not stupid or anything. It can't even make a straight."
#2 "Strong means weak, unless...."
I'm in seat 8, get AJo in the BB. Turns out to be a tight one when only 7 players call. I check, the flop comes A94 rainbow. SB bets, I raise, two callers and seat 4 (same guy) reraises. Seat 4 makes no effort to hide how he feels about a hand and might as well play with his cards face up. This is his "you can't knock me off of my second pair" face. SB calls (another aside: the small blind had been grumbling about the crap hands that had been winning pots. He told me he always has at least an ace or a king. Then he added "or a ten - I always call with a ten, especially T2o, I have good luck with that.")
Anyway, the turn comes a 9. Seat 4 pumps his fist and gives a "yessss" type grimace. SB and I both check, seat 4 bets, SB calls I fold. River is a blank, sb checks and calls. Seat 4 shows 59o. SB shows ATo and gives me a "can you believe this xxxx" look as he mucks.
I couldn't believe it either.
#3 "Wow, now that was stupid"
The hero of this story is seat 9, who reportedly won about 1K the night before. He is pretty bad. He is a weird combination of maniac/weak tight. On two occasions he has put up a live straddle and folded to a single raise in a family (I was the only other folder each time)pot.
Fast forward to the river. Large family pot capped on the turn. there are 4 players left and more than $250 in the pot. Board is AcKcKsJcQd. Seat 9 is first of 4 players to act. Dealer tells him it is his turn, and he absent mindedly turns over his hand showing J3o. He realizes his error, flips his cards back over and checks. Seat 10 bets, both others call, and seat 9 stops and thinks hard for about 15 seconds, and then calls, his J3o barely missing when seat 10 flips over big slick for the boat.
Can't really expain that one. I will say at that time seat 8 was sober. He then began ordering beers, swiched to seat 6 and proceeded to raise every pot for the next 2 hours until he burned off about $1200.
#4 "What did you think she had"
For most of my session, seat 2 was occupied by a 70ish woman who called every hand preflop, but then turned into a rock and would only call when she had odds (which with these pots giving at times 20-1 on the flop she called often), and only raised with the nuts. Even though, she was well ahead due to 1) variance and 2) All in all, she was greatly outplaying everyone post flop, as her bets continued to get callers throughout the session.
One hand she was UTG and raised. Still she got 7 callers. (I folded AQo) Flop came QTT rainbow. Seat 7 (the sb in story #2) bet, all 7 stayed aboard. Turn was a J. Again, seat 7 bet, all fold except seat 2 and seat 4. River is an ace. Seat 7 bets out, all call. Seat 7 shows JJ, and seems confident as there was no raise on the river. Seat 2 shows AA. Ouch.
Asked why she didn't raise, she said he could of had quad tens.
#5 "No, really, I want to leave"
It is 1:00 A.M. and I have been playing for 12 hours. There is an open seat and the floor person comes over and asks the dealer if it is in fact open. I am UTG and tired, so I tell the floor person that I am leaving after this hand. My chips are racked and I am ready to go. I stand up, expecting to peek at my cards, muck, and leave. Lo and Behold I get dealt AKs. Crap. I raise. Suprisingly many at the table figure out I really did not want to play the last hand so maybe I have something and fold. I get 3 callers including seat 4. Flop comes KQJ rainbow. Checked to me I bet, seat 4 raises with his "I know you are bluffing" face. other two fold and I reraise as I am confident in my read. Turn comes 6 of the 4th suit. I bet, he raises, I call, becoming less sure. river is a 2. I bet, he raises, and I call with visions of Q2o bouncing in my head. He then turns over J3o, and I get a nice going away present, and leave +400 for my 12 hours.
Low Limit Observations
1) if a majority of the people at your table call with anything, don't be suprised and disconcerted when 80% the pots get taken down by 94o and the like. Nothing cracks me up more than the "good" player who sees this happen, complains for a while, and starts playing crap hands "because they seem to be hitting." You know who you are, and if you have a defensive reaction to this, well, you, as Dan Patrick would say, "are not good".
2) It helps to not regard people who call every hand and chase with garbage as "idiots". Most of the time these are reasonably smart people with different priorities than the serious player. Labeling them is a disservice as it discourages new players from playing and I imagine in my own mind having my aces cracked by an "idiot's" 94s would bug me more than to have my aces cracked by a "fun loving gambler's" 94s.
As I tried to make clear in my orginal post, this hand didn't exactly bother me all that much. I only posted it because it was the most amazing call I'd seen in low limit. I've seen all the crap hands that people play, and I've seen people call with Ace high all the way down, and the like. But to call two bets with 67off on a flop of K99, I had never seen anything like this. Just thought it was funny, that's all.
Peace
Goodie
x
I saw someone last week call three bets COLD in a kill pot with nothing but a backdoor flush draw. He got there of course, beating me out of the main pot (which was very large compared to the paltry side pot). another time I raised UTG with AsKd and the flop was King high, all spades. I bet to the end and one opponent called me (cold called BTF). The river card was the 8s giving me the nut flush. She had called all the way with Ah8h and called the river when she paired 8s. Bonehead plays abound in low limit poker, also in mid and high limit poker too, just not quite as often.
Dave in Cali
Playing 3-6 loose holdem on Dunc's home turf (if you're reading this Dunc our hero is the Lebanese limo driver). 2 early callers then a raise, I fold, and the guy next to me shows me his 72o as he calls 2 cold in the cutoff with a smirk. I just shake my head. 4 players take the flop. Flop comes A23. Turns out the other 3 hands, believe it or not, were 33, 45s, and the raiser had AK.
Well the trips bet out, the straight raises, the AK reraises, and LimoBoy calls 3 cold with his deuces. I look at him and furrow my brow. He is brimming with an aura of confidence. The trips cap it off.
Turn comes a 7. Here we go again. The trips bet, the straight raises, AK calls, and now Limoboy reraises with his 2 pair (haha) and the trips cap again. Of course the straight calls, and I believe the AK dropped here. Limoboy looks over at me and grins. He really believes he's the best.
River comes, what else, a 7! I cannot believe my eyes. 3s full bet, straight calls, Limoboy raises, 3's full reraises, straight calls, and of course the SEVENS FULL OF DEUCES triumphantly caps it!
As he scoops in one of the biggest pots I had seen in 3-6 a long time, he makes some snide comment like "you guys should know better than to screw with me"
OK I guess this one is worse. It's just that I had blocked it out 'cause this time I was in the hand and was leading to the river. Same place, Dunc's home turf, and same game, loose 3-6.
I'm on the button with QQ. Lookin good. Well Curtis the Landscaper raises early with 99. A loose player calls 2 cold with 66. Then a guy who had just flown in from Newfoundland and was playing holdem for the first time (I'm not making this up!) calls cold with 2 offsuit little cards (I think 35 but it could have been 24. I remember they weren't even connected). Well I know Curtis is a pretty fast player so I of course reraise. Curtis knows I'm a tightass so he wisely just calls.
OK here comes the flop Q96 (two hearts)! Three sets! Our hero from Newfoundland is left pretty much out in the cold with a 3 flush and a 3 straight. Well, the other sets are licking their chops and they all check to me. I bet, Curtis raises, Trip6 reraises, and Newfoundland calls 3 cold with SFA! Of course I cap it.
Next card is the Kh. I didn't want a heart but I'm pretty sure I'm still the best. Curtis bets. Trip6 raises. Newfoundland calls 2 more cold with a deuce or three high flush draw. I can't recall if I raised again or just called in deference to the possible flush.
Well needless to say the river is another heart, and lo and behold, Newfoundland proudly turns over his one card flush to take down a big pot.
I remember he took a few more big ones down after that and left a VERY big winner (60BB??). Good for him! Problem is he lost that and a couple of thousand more over the ensuing weeks.
Some people don't believe me when I tell them that I make $200-$600 for a 12 hour session. DESPITE the huge swings in playing these type of players, if you play tight, and play aggressive, you come out WAY ahead most of the time. Sure, I've had sat down at a 4-8 table and lost $200 in the first hour-and-a-half, and walked. But, I checked my log-book for 2000, and found only 5 losing sessions out of 37. I made THOUSANDS last year playing nothing but 3-6-12 and 4-8. I say, "Bring on those loose players!", the more of them, the more I make.
STOP WHINING.
Would you rather have this dribbling moron sitting in his seat or some other "less than ideal" opponent.
Nobody's whining. I think we're just relating some amusing stories.
About a year ago I'm playing in a reasonable $3-6 game and see 55 (at this time I was all hyped up about "presto") so when a very tight kid to my right raised I 3-bet him (incorrect, but this is my one hand where I mix it up).
Anyways lady on the button cold calls, the blinds fold, and the kid just calls.
Flop is AKT. And the kid bets into me. Well, damn, that didn't work. I fold and the lady on the button calls.
Turn rag, kid bets, lady calls, river rag, kid bets, lady raises, kid calls and shows AK for top two pair.
Lady turns over 5-2 for bike! I mean I didn't even see that. Amazing beat :)
Jim Roy
Jim,
Don't tell me these are the ladies favorite #'s to cold call 3 bets with!!! Then AKT flops and she still calls, rag call, rag raise. A miracle Bike if I ever heard one. Only in HE any two cards can win and when I'm on the button I don't fold!!!
I hope you cleaned her out for playing this way!!!
paul
Moderately tight online 1-2$ table.
I'm UTG an pick up AK offsuit. I openraise, 3 folds, MP pos player 3bets, the player after him caps. All fold.
Your move...
I figured that at least one of them has to have AA or KK and folded.
Comments appreciated.
Sincerly, Andreas
I believe this one is very close, and you are not making a big mistake by folding. I would cap betting with AKs, QQ, KK, or AA. (I may not even with AKs). Since you have an AKo there are:
2 ways to make AKs
6 ways to make QQ
3 ways to make KK
3 ways to make AA
You have to call 2SB and you can expect there to be 11 plus SB in the pot before you call. 11:2. Looks like an easy call, but the number of times you are dominated may make it not worth while imo.
Derrick
never fold AKo pre-flop on paradise.
proceed with caution after the flop.
Never is such a strong word. Of course you would fold it given certain table conditions.
But at that point I knew that I was behind at least one if not both opponents.
Maybe it's just me that's allergic to paying of all the way to the river if I hit.
Sincerly, Andreas
I have not folded this hand in a PP ring game, but I really don't know if the same situation has come up. I have folded it in a PP tourney in the exact described situation. One player had AA and one had JJ. J hits on the flop and A's go down...
Derrick
Sorry was that 1K/2K$ or 1/2$?
Given some of the crap I've seen people capping on, folding AK will usualy be huge loss.
You say the game was moderatly tight, you do not say anything about the person who capped it. Your only possible justification for folding is a very good read on the capper.
I had enough of a read to know that theese playeres weren't playing pure crap this way. Since MP 3-bet (which indicate a strong hand imo, AKo/AK-AQs/AA-TT) and next player caps. Between them I felt the chance of me beeing dominated was to great.
Sincerly, Andreas
3-bettor had AA, Capper had JJ.
Sincerly, Andreas
I've been playing for a few months now in the .25/.50 and .50/$1 games on Planet Poker, slowly building up a stake ($150 of winnngs now) and trying to learn the game. Last night I went up a level to the $1/$2 level, and won $50 in a couple of hours. I have two questions: Does online play get tougher as you go up levels? The $1/$2 table didn't seem much tougher to me than the .25/.50 tables, but maybe I just got lucky. Do you think there's much team play on Planet Poker, and if so, are you more likely to run into it at higher levels? Thanks
Low limit play at paradise can range from incredibly tight and aggressive one day to a table full of dudes who seem to have all had lobotomies the next.
$1-2 is usually fine, although I would avoid $2-4 most days...that limit is a lot tougher than it should be. The best game on paradise is the $5-10 and (when it is running) $8-16.
You need $2000 to sit there though.
The only explanation I can come up for 5-10 being better than 3-6 and 2-4 is that those smaller limits aren't juicy enough to attract the recreational gamblers....the lower limits are full of guys like yourself...people learning the game with low bankrolls and trying to improve.
Wardy
Curious--
I'm glad to hear that you're doing well, and I believe that you started off right by playing 2 months at .50/1.00...so many people get frustrated there easily and move to higher levels when they can't beat that game. The answer to your question is a little complex...I can only offer my opinion.
I do not believe the players at 1-2 are significantly better than the players at .50/1.00 and even 2-4, and 3-6 are full of very weak players...although admitedly, I think your average 3-6 player is definitely better than .50/1.00...
In response to Wardy's post...it's interesting, but 5-10 is the level where I get killed; I don't believe that it is because the players are good...I think it has more to do with the fact that the games actually are very good if your hands hold up, and can be very very hard on your bankroll if you get a few hands cracked like KK vs. 8-2 suited...(he called 2.6 bets preflop from small blind)...I haven't played the 1000 hours or more necessary to truly validate this statement, because Wardy is right...you need a very big bankroll to safely play this...i think 2000 is extremely conservative, especially since i usually play 2 tables at a time...
also, keep in mind that at least in my experience, 1-2 tables can be wild...don't be surprised if you drop 50 dollars in one session either, but don't think you are outmatched at 1-2...I firmly believe, if you can consistently beat .50/1.00, you can beat 1-2 with no problem, and probably do fine at 2-4, and 3-6...
good luck, Peter
you wrote: In response to Wardy's post...it's interesting, but 5-10 is the level where I get killed; I don't believe that it is because the players are good...I think it has more to do with the fact that the games actually are very good if your hands hold up, and can be very very hard on your bankroll if you get a few hands cracked like KK vs. 8-2 suited.
You will get killed at 5-10 if you catch a bad run of cards, because it is very aggressive. I got killed the first 8 or 9 times I played there...like you said if you get big hands cracked you'll lose a lot but that's the nature of online poker. What will also happen is that you will always get paid off to the end by weak kickers and you overpairs will always get paid off. bad players never fold top pair, and some never fold any pair.
the main reason that 5-10 is such a good game is that, unlike at the lower limits..they won't call your raise with T9o but they will call it with KJo, and that is exactly what you want them to do.
Wardy
"the main reason that 5-10 is such a good game is that, unlike at the lower limits..they won't call your raise with T9o but they will call it with KJo, and that is exactly what you want them to do."
In the lower limits they will even pay you off with as low as second or third pair. And I surely want T9o to call my raises. I know it will give more suck-outs, but it will also increase your hourly rate significantly.
Regards
2000 bankroll for 5/10 isnt conservative; I actually require more. I like about 300BB bankroll for each limit.
And, but that's just me, I wouldnt play 2 tables from 5/10 and above, because the players at that limit become more tricky.
Regards.
"1-2 is usually fine, although I would avoid $2-4 most days...that limit is a lot tougher than it should be. The best game on paradise is the $5-10 and (when it is running) $8-16."
I dont know what limits you play at Paradise, but the higher you get, the more difficult the game will be. The 8/16 game is an exeption IMO however. I've played all the limits you mention to build my bankroll, and it sure looks as the 2-4 game is hard if you play 1-2, but when you play it you'll see that it surely isnt as hard as you think. I played that limit for a bit over 400 hours (not too long, I know), and won quite a lot. The thing I experienced is that every time I moved up, I first lost some money, but I recognized my mistakes, I improved my game, and I beat every level I played in so far (although I just began to play some 8/16). The 5/10 game surely is more difficult to beat than the 2/4; 5/10 is much more aggressive, and if you dont have the proper preflop standards (or play weak postflop), you'll loose a lot of money.
Regards
The 1-2$ games at planet vary quite a lot in my opinion. Sometimes they're awfully tight, sometimes they're good and fun.
I haven't seen any team-playing at the limits I've played, 1-2 to 3-6 but then again I'm not always that observant when playing.
Sincerly, Andreas
.5/1, 1/2, 2/4, 3/6, and even 5/10 is not worth playing if your goal is making money.. since all you can make is best 1 or 2 big bets an hour. That means in 2/4 game you can make from 4-8 dollars an hour only if you are very good at this game. This is like making minimum wage outside. However, if you are there to have fun why not?
So if your goal is making money. You need to play 5/10 and above and also need to be good at holdem.. But seriously think about whether it is worth it first. I played about 6 month in PP mostly playing 5/10 and 10/20 make 6000 dollars then quit about 4 months ago and never played again because i thought that it is just not worth my time.. It also affected my school grade significantly..
Finally, read holdem for advanced player and follow its rules with little variation or even no variation, you WILL make money in the long run in 3/6 or 5/10 in paradise. I garantee you at least one small bet an hour.
I've put in hudreds of hours at all levels between 1/2 and 10/20. I play two tables at a time. I've found that on average each level is a little tougher than the one below it. That doesn't mean that you can't at times find yourself a juicy 10/20 when all the 5/10's suck. Often 3/6 is the most profitable level of the three. 3/6 is the lowest level I've experienced collusion. However, both times the team played so piss-poor both busted out. Collusion at 5/10 and 10/20 is a problem (for me) and I spend most of my time @ 3/6 and below.
Playing two tables, low-limits, 25-30 hrs/wk, I make a modest living. spitball
Can you give specific situations where you thought there was collusion involved? Since you're so sure that there is collusion at these levels (because it's a problem for you), how do you recognize it? What are the things to watch for?
I ask this, because I mainly play 5/10 and 8/16 (sometimes 10/20) at Paradise for quite a while and never experienced collusion, so I might need to improve my collusion radar :-)
Thanks.
Thanks to everyone who responded. Reading your replies has answered a lot of questions I've been wondering about as I sit at my computer, pressing check/fold over and over again. This is an excellent forum.
the instances were obvious (to me). PLayer A bets, player B raises, repeat until they are alone with the pot, player A folds. with unskilled team mates, they perform this dance six or seven times around and are easy to squash. more skilled teams will be much more subtle and I find too frustrating to play against. in general, the mid-limit games have become too tight to play day after day. add cheaters and the games become a break even prospect for a player of my modest skills. spitball
Curious--
Unless you have already read it, I would suggest finding a site called The NeoTech Discovery.
Look through all the stuff (there is a lot) and find the info relating to poker. It has a lot on collusion and cheating in general. If your knowledge on cheating is limited, you will probably find this an interesting read. For anyone else, you may find it a little out of date.
Jack.
Hello,
I am new here ...introduced by my friend Bob T.
I play on line a LOT and yes I belive some poeple do cheat.
personaly I dont feel the risk is any greater than in a live game ...
$3-6 Hold 'em
Rake: 10% to max of $4
SB: $1 BB: $3
If you steal the blinds, they rake $1 (this is in Ontario, apparently they must take a minimum of $1 rake on all pots).
Is this a common situation in low limit games when the blinds are stolen??
Thanks, JM
No. Most cardrooms have a "no flop, no drop" rule. If a flop is not seen, then there is no drop or rake taken.
i haven't had too much experience with this rule. mostly at the low limits it is a rare rare hand when there is not a flop seen. you're way more likely to see a capped family pot then a pot without a flop. in california (at least in my experience) there isn't a rake, there is a collection on the button. button pays a set fee (varies a but for how many players are in the hand) and the pot is the pot that gets shoved to the winner, no more house rake on it. however i have played in games where there is a house percentage rake, and at this particular place they would break the rakes down to half dollars if necessary to get the proper rake, but not anything as hugely out of proportion as your example.
The California "dead button" charge in low limit games is tough to overcome. If I played extensively in California, I would play nothing lower than $10-$20 and just pay the time.
This is not common, I have never seen the rake 1$ when the blinds are stolen rule. Otherwise, the game is the same as standard atlantic city 3-6. It's not the most horrible rule of all times, but it's not exactly the most favorable either. It boils down to them taking slightly more rake on the average than AC games. In most games, except dead drop games, if the blinds are stolen there is no rake or drop taken.
JM,
Are you telling us that you can steal blinds in a 3-6 game in Ontario? Wow :)
That's a new one on me... LOL
Best wishes, found the concept very humorous. Hope no offence taken.
Mike
I had just finished my session and was enjoying a nice, cold beer while chatting with a friend. As we spoke, the following hand developed in the 6-12 game that I had just left. Player A is a local pro, who plays a solid, but predictable game. Player B is a local who plays a very thoughtful game, but is too loose at times. Both have played many hours together.
PREFLOP: Player A limps in middle position (middle/early), Player B raises in middle position (middle/late), all others fold.
FLOP: A 6 5 rainbow - Player A bets, Player B calls.
TURN: 8 [A 6 4] no flush possible - Player A bets, Player B calls.
RIVER: 2 [A 6 4 8] - Player A bets, Player B calls.
RESULT: Player A wins with A8s, Player B has AQs.
Who played the hand better? What mistakes we made by each player?
I think Player B should raise the flop bet. Player A is representing an ace and Player B has a big ace. After getting raised on the flop, player A will probably check when he turns a second pair. Player B will bet and Player A will raise. Now player B has to decide whether to call or fold. It depends upon what he knows about Player A. If Player A is an LOL (Little Old Lady) or a TOM (Tight Old Man), then Player B can fold knowing that he is playing three outs at best. If Player A is a maniac or just a loose-goose then he probably has to stay with the hand.
pretty much sums it up. i think heads up that player b needs to raise the flop. player A could have been more creative pre-flop and re-raised. a raise and then a call of a reraise is sometimes admitting weakness. it totally depends of course, but the call and not the re-raise is saying something about your kicker, or maybe you dont have a bad ace, but a KQ suited or something. at any rate A8 should have checkraised the flop. this would serve many purposes: now b may suspect AK and fold, suspect 2 pair and fold, or b could re-raise and a would know a bit more about where he stood. on the turn, when the straight possibility comes, depending on your opponent, a could check raise again here, if play was as you described up to this point. a check raise here puts b in a bit of a guessing game: did a just hit his bad kicker? is it possible he raised preflop with 57 (unlikely)? is it possible he raised pre-flop with 88 (a bit more likely, though not very.) on the river AQ has to call if puts player A on a worse ace, but if he analyzes the situation, he may find that player A really had no business betting a bad ace past the flop unless he was dumb(which we know he isn't) or he improved his ace, which is likely. AQ is a crying call here, too bad.
If player A is predictable, then he is most likely betting an ace. If so, player B shouldn't mind him putting his chips in the pot with a 3 outer with only 5 pre-flop bets in the center. On the other hand, if player A happened to flop a set of 6's or A6s, player B loses less.
I understand that playing the hand your way allows him to lose less if he can make the laydown for a check/raise on the turn. But I really don't like to be laying down AQ here, partly because you may have outs to justify a call, especially if you've increased the size of the pot with raises on the first two rounds. I'm not saying you can't ever raise the flop, but in this case, I have little problem with the way player B played the hand. IMO-
Kevin
Player A played fine. I would limp with A8s in most games, and I would probably bet the flop. When player B never made any moves, I would probably continue betting the whole way. He never had any reason to believe player B had him beat, he probably put him on a pair like QQ or JJ. Player B screwed up by not raising the flop when he hit top pair. What flop was he waiting for anyway? Ironically, player B should have lost more money on this hand, had he played it right.
Dave in Cali
I don't understand why everyone thinks player 'B' should have raised the local pro. Assuming the pro wouldn't limp with a 78s, you can only put him on either a) a set, b) a smaller A, or c) a pocket pair smaller than A's. In any of these cases, player 'B' is either way ahead or way behind, AND there are no other players to consider. By simply checking and calling, player 'B' wins the most when he's ahead, and loses less when he's behind-- assuming the pro isn't dumb enough to go to the river with a smaller ace.
In any case, in a pot this small just calling the flop and turn is far from a huge mistake; in fact, I would likely make this play myself, especially against an opponent (i.e., most of them) who couldn't resist betting the turn with a smaller ace.
I am the predictable Player B that the analytical railbird describes. We have a different view as to player A's play. Anyway Player A knows that I play solid cards,he knows that I would'nt bet into him on the flop without a very strong hand,the fact that I don't have a very strong hand here is my way of testing his hand's strength.He clearly should have raised on the flop.Analytical Railbird told me I should have checkraised the turn,I knew there was a good chance B would'nt bet, by betting first I was inviting him to re-raise or call me down. The game we play is a generally straight foward passive game, populated by people who don't do much thinking,its my view that solid albiet predictable play is generally the way to go.Railbird uses a trickier more aggressive style,which would be better served in a higher limit game.After using this more complex method,a cold beer on the rail is usually necessary medication.
I am the predictable Player B
No, you are Player B. (I will never use that notation again as it really throws people off)
We have a different view as to player A's play
This hand is an example why. I like his play, you don't.
He clearly should have raised on the flop.
It is not clear to me. I think calling is higher EV, as well as adding deception to his play.
Analytical Railbird told me I should have checkraised the turn,I knew there was a good chance B would'nt bet, by betting first I was inviting him to re-raise or call me down.
I would checkraise virtually everytime. Player B will bet an ace everytime, as well as call the raise and river. He will only check a two outer, but will probably fold to a bet. Even if it is checked behind, he will call the river bet. But your play is certainly not bad, just not optimium IMO.
The game we play is a generally straight foward passive game, populated by people who don't do much thinking,its my view that solid albiet predictable play is generally the way to go.
I agree, but it is so boring.
Railbird uses a trickier more aggressive style,which would be better served in a higher limit game.
Oh really, at least I never get grilled about being a pro, or have players threaten to bring their bigger friends over. LOL
After using this more complex method,a cold beer on the rail is usually necessary medication.
It's not my play, but rather the play of others.
With the limper betting into me heads-up I would assume a weak ace and would usually smooth-call the flop and give a shot on the turn. If he calls I will often just check the river unless I improve. I think this is a matter of style though, and this method seems to fit into my game plan.
Raising the flop is the second option, and is probably safer.
Simply calling to the river with AQ almost makes me gag, it takes a special opponent (either a chronic-bluffer or total-tight-ass-that-only-bets-monsters) for me to adopt this weak-tight style here.
Jim Roy
I'm ina semi loose 5-10 @ paradise
In 2nd seat after bb get Ah+Qc 1st seat folds i raise seat 4 and 6 cold call BB calls.
Flop 3h Qh JH BB chks I bet seat 4 raises seat 6 folds BB folds I reraise seat 4 folds i take it.
I dont know much about seat 4 seems quite loose pre-flop. Question should I have reraised or called with top pair and kicker + A flush draw.
Beat the luck
drumm
Reraising is not bad but my preference would be to just call and see the turn card. If it is a blank, I might lead again on the turn. Having raised preflop and then bet the flop you have pretty much announced your hand (that is a big ace). Reraising is just betting the same values over again and your hand may not be good. Your strategy depends upon what you know about your opponent which may not be much since you are playing online.
i need some help adjusting from structured betting to spread limit. particularly 1-4-8-8. any suggestions will greatly be appreciated.
thanks, james
Spread limit games are somewhat different than split limit games. First off, the typical 1-4-8-8 game has two blinds of 1$+2$. These blinds are smaller than the blinds in regular games. Because of the fact that you can raise to 6$ on the first raise, the blinds are proportionately smaller compared to the opening bet. This has two effects. first off, you can play tighter. Because the blinds are so small, the blinds don't eat up much of your stack, therefore you can afford to wait for better hands to play. Larger blinds and antes require you to play more hands so you don't get blinded out. However, there is a bit of a paradox here. This small blind structure also allows you to play MORE hands! Because of the small initial bet, and the larger implied odds, you can afford to limp with a few more hands, especially drawing hands in loose games. You need to balance these two aspects of pre-flop play according to the conditions of the game you are in. If the game is fairly tight or if it is aggressive, I tighten up a lot and wait for premium hands before playing. If the game is loose and passive, I limp with more hands, especially small pair and suited connectors.
Another pre-flop adjustment is what to do when you want to raise. If you have one limper in front of you and you have AKo, raise the maximum. In a standard game, you probably won't drive anyone out that has already limped, but you might in spread limit. This is especially true in 2-6. The correlary to this principle is that you should sometimes fold to a raise when you would usually call. Say you are in a loose game and limp with a medium strength hand. If someone raises the max, you should consider folding much more strongly than you would in a regular split limit game. The reason for this is that if you limp for two, and someone raises to six, you are paying double what you would in a regular game, the same as if it was raised and reraised.
In general, you usually want to bet or raise the maximum when playing spread limit. I have not found 1-4-8-8 to be all that much different from straight 4-8, other than pre-flop. Most players bet the maximum, only a few don't. When they don't bet the max, you can often make calls that you would normally fold, because they are letting you have a cheap chance to draw out on them. Don't you make this mistake, if you are going to bet, you should usually be betting the max. The only time I don't bet the max is on those rare occasions where I want to be called and don't want to drive anyone out. Another time I might not bet the max is if I want to reraise someone who raises me. Say I have a strong hand and want to get as much money into the pot as possible. I might bet 2$, hoping someone will raise me, then I would reraise them the maximum. But if you are just learning the nuances of this structure, you should pretty much always bet the max.
The other thing you should think about is to pay closer attention to pot odds, the spread limit structure does not allow for such easy counting as split limit does.
Dave in Cali
Any recommendations for a Hold 'Em Software product/ game that would provide the closest-to-real-life game I could get (possibly allowing you to set the strength of the table)?? Something to allow me to continue my training (when I can't be at the real thing), while keeping me in the good graces of my significant other??
Turbo Texas Holdem by Wilson Software
1-800-577-WINS or
ConJelCo link on this site.
Turbo Texas Holdem is the program you want. Available at wilsonsoftware.com. The program is not the end-all of end-alls, but I like it and it does have some very useful functions, including some of what you were asking about. Keep in mind though that it is a computer program, not a real life game, so it's usefulness is somewhat limited. It can help you learn how to think poker though, by simulating thousands of "hypothetical situations". It's expensive, but I have it and I am not upset with having paid about 90$ for it, it's a very well written program and it's incredibly detailed. The upgrades are not expensive, usually less than 20$, plus I have spoken with Bob Wilson personally several times, and he is a decent guy, so I didn't mind giving him my money.
Dave in Cali
I was wondering how much a 10% rake to $5 max affects a 5-10 HE game. Does this make the game not worthwhile even if the games are pretty good? It's usually semi loose-aggressive with one or two maniacs.
thanks, jeff
If the game is good, this rake can be overcome. I played $3-$6 hold'em in Lake Charles, Louisiana a few years ago where they raked 10% up to a $5 maximum plus they took out an extra $1 for a bad beat jackpot. I was still able to average better than one big bet per hour. Similarly, when I played $1-$5 spread limit stud.
I do not understand why you played 3/6 making one big bet an hour. That is less than minimum wage if you played well.
I was just learning how to play. Poker is a hobby with me, it has never been a means of supporting myself. I am very proud of being able to beat a $3-$6 for about $9 per hour and a $1-$5 stud game for about $7 per hour after a thousand hours of play especially given the high rake.
Probably the biggest effect it has is to slowly bleed the players to death, which threatens to dry up the game. As far as you yourself are concerned, it still can be beat. However, if you have the skill and bankroll, I would step up A.S.A.P.
Kevin
I usually play 10-20 HE at the Taj which has a $10/hour seat charge. So, that's 0.5 BB/hr -- not an insignificant number rate. The 5-10 game at the Taj has a 10% max $4 rake. This rake, over the long haul, will come out to more than 0.5 BB/hr. But, this is partially offset by weaker competition, in theory. I personally think these rakes are austere but only Vegas has better rakes...
I posted this in the Internet section but I think it belongs here.
Game is $1-2 HE at Paradise.
All players are unfamiliar. Saw 3 hands waiting for my BB and game seems timid with no preflop raising or agressive action post flop.
I'm in the sb with KJ of hearts.
MP and LP limp; I call; bb checks.
Flop: 7 7 4 (rainbow with the 7 of hearts)
Checked around.
Turn: 7 7 4 (J) (now 4 suits)
What would you do and why?
Bet; check-call or check raise? IMO check-fold was not an option.
My action and results to follow.
All comments welcome.
You have an easy bet but pay attention to the reaction of the big blind !
With 2 limpers, middle and late, I would have raised out of my small blind with a hand this strong. That way there's a fair chance the big blind will fold, and your hand has a good chance of winning on it's own or with a bluff. In any event it is likely the best hand.
As for the turn, I would come out betting and hope that everyone folds. If you get raised, I dunno, you are on your own.
First of all, your hand is good enough to raise before the flop. KJs plays well in a large multiway pot. But I don't think it is necessary to make that raise.
On the turn, your decision should have something to do with how you think the other players will play. The more likely someone is to bluff at the pot, the more inclined you should be to check. The more inclined they are to pay you off with a weak hand, the more inclined you should be to bet.
These decisions are not automatic one way or another. If you are against players you have never seen before, you should think about what typical players are like for this limit and location. However, you did say that the game appears timid. If that's the case, you should bet and probably fold if raised.
When the J came on the turn giving me top pair with 2nd best kicker I lead out from the sb (with the intention of folding if I was raised from this timid field) and everyone folded. Pretty boring hand but I won 8 sb and didn't have to make any tough decisions.
I didn't even consider raising for the sb as Mason and wgb made mention that KJs is strong enough to raise from the sb in a multi-way pot.
I was able to cr & semi bluff more in this game with middle or bottom pairs combined with flush/st8 draws and won several pots without a showdown.
I haven't read HEP; HEPFAP or SS for awhile. I think its time to dust them off and review some probable leaks in my game.
I won only 4 SB but found out that what I said about the game being very soft was true. I was able to cr and semibluff more often and take down many pots uncontested. And when some calling stations didn't bet or raise with the best hand it allowed me to draw cheaspe or free.
With three opponents, I would be thinking more about protecting my hand with a bet rather than maximizing my potential gain by possibly inducing a bluff. Am I being too conservative in unraised pots like this?
Check and fold. you have play this preflop although KT off is preferred.
Get with it. The read is clear. One of the 1-2 wizards flopped the full house, you are down to two or less outs.
Next.
Ms. Information.
Ms Information wrote:
"Get with it. The read is clear. One of the 1-2 wizards flopped the full house, you are down to two or less outs."
You are kidding, I hope.
If you're not, professional help is available. I would consider Doyle's SS and Mason/Davids HEPFAP for starters.
:>)
to really learn poker you need to go to RGP and read all of Gary Carson's posts. Anything else is simply a dream. readers of HEFAP and SS(sans marked cards) are what the real winners live for.
In my play money game readers of HEFAP are confounded, to say the least.
Hey, you are alright Gene, realize what my name is....
Ms. Information. :)
Preflop, I would not raise out of my small blind with king-jack suited against two limpers. I see this as a high variance play. I am out of position and being suited does not turn this into a raising hand. On the turn, I would bet figuring my hand is good. It would be a mistake to check and have it checked around. A queen or an ace could come at the river resulting in you no longer having the best hand.
Jim, a lot of LL players slow play the trips here, holding a 7. If you bet on the turn and are raised, would you fold, as suggested by someone above?
Papio
Usually but it would depend upon what I know about the player. Against most players, I would fold when popped on fourth.
I like betting out here. If someone has a jack, their kicker is probably worse. If someone has a four, they might call you to the river. If someone has a seven, I think you will be hearing from them now, in which case I would fold.
Dave in Cali
Well guys,
After an {ahem} "difficult" session (i.e., was blinded to death with interspersed rapings) last night at the poker room, one hand sticks out in terms of a difficult decision on the turn that I had to make.
At any rate, this was the first major hand that I played yesterday evening.
PREFLOP
I'm in late middle position with AKo. A new player has posted in the cutoff. It is folded to a loose aggressive (LA) player 3rd UTG who raises. I 3-bet, next folds, poster and button folds, SB cold-calls, BB folds, and LA calls.
3 players, 11 sb in the pot.
FLOP: A 9 7 rainbow
SB bets, LA raises, I make it 3 bets. Both call. LA is short-stacked, but has his hand on stack and I'm unable to see exactly how much he has left.
3 players, 10 bb in the pot.
TURN: A (second of a suit)
SB bets, LA raises. LA has maybe $3 left in front of him at this point.
What's your play? Results/comments to follow.
Ok ... I'm now facing a bet and a raise on the turn holding trips, best kicker.
I've got one of my opponents on the case ace, and the other on a set at this point, but I'm unsure which is where. I have no strong read on whether SB will 3-bet or just call.
I'm currently getting 6.5 to 1 on a call. If I trust my read, I have 3 safe outs to hit a king, and some dubious outs should the 9 or the seven pair on board. If the SB is the guy with the case ace, I maybe will win a decent side pot, whereas if he has the set, I'm in a world of hurt. Of course, should I hit my kicker, I will probably get two or three bets out of my opponent, but having LA all-in does cut down on my implied odds.
In retrospect, I think I should have laid my hand down at this point, but in the heat of battle, I gritted my teeth and called, fully expecting to lose.
SB 3-bet (Doh!), LA went all-in, and I called.
2 active players, 18 bb in the pot.
RIVER: offsuit 2.
SB bets, I make the crying call.
-------------
SB wins the whole pot with A9o for top two pair on the flop, and the best tight on the turn. LA shows 99 for the set on the flop and tight on the turn. I show my hand and claim the bronze.
All comments/flames welcome,
Dave
Shit happens. Think about it though. All four nines and all four aces were involved in that had. How often is that going to happen?
The LA player being almost all in keeps me in this hand. I lose more in the specific situation you ran into, but I think I win more the times my hand is good.
You're probably beat in both places however the LA player may only have a hand like Ax; or a flush/straight draw. Players (especially aggressive types) have a tendency when they are low in checks to go all-in with marginal holdings and/or big draws.
When the sb leads after you raised BTF and 3-bet OTF, I would put him on the very least AK. Most likely 77, 99 or A9; A7 suited.
There are 10 BB in the pot with 3 BB live awating your decision. So at the moment you have the pot laying you 6.5-1 with the SB left to act. If you call you are still facing a probable raise with 3 outs (43-3 shot to hit your miracle K and that's if all 3 are still live (the LA may have a K drwing to the nut flush).
If you want to know how many chips someone has left in front of them, all you have to do is ask.
I would raise. You very likely have the best hand. LA could have anything and is "just trying to go all in" or he could have a full house.
If SB reraises, you could have a problem.
The majority of the time, I would think your hand is good here. Not every time, but certainly often enough that you can raise.
Dan, I haven't looked at the results yet, but how can you figure the hand is any good (assuming the SB is a normal player)? There is only one ace left in the deck, yet you have 2 players betting into and raising into you after you have shown strength. Granted the LA could have QQ or 10-8 (although I think that's unlikely), and the SB may have AQ (but why would he bet AQ into a 3 bet?). At least one of them will be full and if either has A-9, your in trouble. I think a call is marginal at best and a raise is reckless.
You told them you have an ace and yet they keep on betting into you. With 2 players the boat is in someone's hand.
I would put one of them on an ace and the other on a set. You are getting 7-1 which makes your call borderline, but when you factor in that you may only get half if the board pairs, I would probably lay it down. In addition the the SB may re-raise and you may be playing a 3 outer.
The wild card is the SB. How solid was he?
Hey Winger,
Thanks for the response.
SB was a bit of a loose goose, but his play improved somewhat on the later streets. Not particularly wild and crazy, although he occasionally drew pretty slim, and I did see one semi-bluff raise from him during the session.
Dave
Hey Winger,
Thanks for the response.
SB was a bit of a loose goose, but his play improved somewhat on the later streets. Not particularly wild and crazy, although he occasionally drew pretty slim, and I did see one semi-bluff raise from him during the session.
Dave
.
Hey you guys,
What's up? You post to the thread below me and the thread two above me, but no response to my thread? Did I urinate in your corn flakes this morning? (If so sorry...) Or is my hand so boring/straightforward/poorly played that you feel you don't need to respond?
{sniff, sniff} I feel so neglected...
Dave
Dave, I know how you feel. Sometimes I will get many responses and sometimes just a couple. Sometimes from regulars and/or players who I consider to be experts or authority figures (Mason, David S, Tommy, etc...don't know about Dave in Cali other than his participation on this forum, but I like his thoughts and he seems to be a student of the game also) and sometimes not. I certainly appreciate their input however all comments should be appreciated as well. Sure, those types have earned credibility but I try to be open minded to anyone's thoughts. That way I can take what they say and maybe learn something from it or if I choose to I can just leave it alone.
On the lighter side of things, try no to take this too personal. However, you might consider another grocery store other than the one Jim and Dave in Cali shop to release your frustrations out (or should I say in) the Corn Flakes.
LOL
:>)
Gene (holdemdude)
Jim would tell you to fold. I don't know what Dave in Cali would have told you. If the board had been slightly less co-ordinated I would have told you to just call when the LP raised, and fold when it was (doubtlessly) capped back to you on the flop.
Hi GD,
I just posted this after noticing that both Jim Brier and Dave in Cali (two players whose posts I have enjoyed and learned from in the past) answered the thread below mine, and then the thread above mine a short time later, but without giving me so much as a peep.
I guess I just post uninteresting hands,
Dave
You pansy! You are a conservative weakling who I would like to dynamite! Reraise until you have no chips left!(:
I did not mean to neglect you Dave but I normally don't respond if a lot of other posters have already responded since I am not sure I can add anything at that point.
With regard to this hand, I don't see how you can get away from it at this point. The only thing that beats you is a full house. You have trips with the very best kicker (very important) so you beat all worse aces. The other thing is that these guys could be drawing and just trying to get all-in.
Hi Jim,
Thanks for responding. I value/respect your advice and have learned a lot from your posts in the past. While I am certainly grateful for all the other responses I received to this post, I must admit to counting your input as equivalent to 2 responses.
I'm a little surprised you advocate calling, although I do admit that it was a very tough decision for me to make, and that calling was my choice at the table. Perhaps the results are colouring my thinking, though.
Thanks again,
Dave
Nice friendly posts here....I agree that it is tough to get away. Altho you lost here, if you were to fold everytime in this spot(top trips, coordinated enemy board) I would wager you would be giving up a lot of profit. If any of you have Poker Essays by Mason, he has an interesting post that he printed up a response from another top player that mimicks this discussion, altho it was written for higher levels.
5-10 Online. Pretty tight and aggressive (left table after only a few rounds to find a better table)
2rd to act limps. All fold to me in sb.
I have 8,8 and raise with the intention of betting any flop (if BB folds). My reasoning: I want to take control of the hand. Very good chance the BB will fold. The limper is solid and will probably fold if flop doesn't hit him.
Is a raise here correct?
The flop comes A,8,4 rainbow.
I bet and he folds. I seriously considered checking my set. However, I figured the best course of action is to bet and hope he has an A and I get raised. However, this is unlikely because there is a good chance he would have raised with a playable had containing an A.
Do you check the set here?
No, I bet the set and hope he calls. I then go for a check raise on the turn.
You bet correctly. A pre-flop raise from SB that then checks that flop is clearly trying for a check-raise, although not for the reason you were. "Solid player" likely has a decent hand, since he entered the pot from early position, and called your raise heads up. As you implied, most hands he would have called with don't contain an Ace, so he isn't likely to bet into you, but he may catch you if you let him play for free.
You likely got all the profit from the hand that you could have, after you (unfortunately) raised pre-flop.
2/4 paradise
AA in SB UTG calls, Tight Player(TP) to his left raises, 2 others cold call, I re-raise, BB folds, UTG calls the 2 bets, TP caps and all other players call. I am now 99% positive TP has KK.
Flop: 9-3-2 (rainbow) I check planning to check-raise, TP bets everyone calls and I just call. I reason that a raise will not knock anyone out and I will save money if I am already beat by a set or a freak two pair. (Is this good reasoning?)
Turn:10c I bet out, UTG folds, TP calls, player to his left folds and player to my right calls.
River(of death): 9c As tears start to drip down my face I check, TP checks, and low and behold the player to my right bets. I call, as does the TP Please comment on my play,could I have played it differently.
TP held KK, and river better held 98s for trips...it hurts.
If your not going to check raise the flop, then by all means, you have to check raise the turn. If you know that TP has KK, your almost certainly ahead, and you should be almost certain that TP will bet the turn.
Personally, I would check raise the flop because of the other players. If I was head's up with TP, then I would wait till the turn. Your check raise on the flop, and subsequent bet on the turn might have gotten rid of 98s. If not, a check raise on the turn might have. But, either one would have gotten more money in the pot with you having the best hand.
Peace
Goodie
Your reasoning on the flop was poor. You should bet and give the TP a chance to raise so you can reraise. No one is going anywhere in a jammed pot like this so forget the fancy stuff. It will take the best hand to win and you have absolutely no reason to believe you do not have the best hand at this point.
Someone who is willing to play in a capped pot preflop with nine-eight suited is never getting out once he catches a piece of the board regardless of what you do. All you can do is make him pay while you are in the lead. If he sucks out, that is poker and there is nothing you could have done about it.
I find it a never ending source of amusement that players believe that their loose opponents will suddenly start playing decent poker on a later street by folding for a bet or a raise with a large pot at stake. Their opponents have already proven that they are basically gamblers willing to pay an exorbitant price to take a flop with weak cards. That is not going to change on a later street.
I've said it before, forget fancy plays in LL. Play straight forward and you'll get the best results. Multi way pots do not lend themselves to slow playing.
Bet the flop, KK will raise and you can 3 bet. Then you lose a little more to the 98 :), but at least you did everything you could to win the pot.
Being that you were so sure you were up against KK, your flop play was atrocious. I would have bet, knowing he would raise, so I could three bet it. Boo Hiss. worrying about a freak set or something on the flop is Paranoid and a waste of a good opportunity to make some money. After all that chickening out on the flop, you could have easily check-raised the turn, KNOWING that your opponent had a king. You were nearly 100% certain to have the check-raise work on the turn, but instead you bet out. I am not surprised the player with the nine called, you only charged one bet when two might have knocked them out. Overall you played the hand very poorly, I'll give you a D-.
ok....here is a hand that i played on paradise 3-6 about an hour ago. All comments would be appreciated..results posted below.
Im SB with A9ss 3 limpers (unknown), I top up...Big blind (weak tight) checks.
Flop T-8-4 rainbow.
I check...its checked through
turn 8 no flush draw possible
I decide I'll give it a whack, as most of these guys would bet an 8 on that flop...
so anyway...I get 3 callers :(
the river is my miracle ace. I think hey why not and bet again.
Give me some comments now the rest of the hand is posted in next message
Im raised by the Big Blind - and pay him off - which in hindsight was stupid since I was at best splitting with a worse Ace on that board.
Anyway he turns over Pocket tens for the boat.
My real question I guess is this. - was the turn bluff a bad idea into 4 opponents, even though none had shown any strength at any point in the hand?
And on the river - would I have been better off to check and call rather than bet (and fold to a raise).
Please note - I don't always play this badly :)
I think the turn bluff is bad even though your opponents have all indicated they have nothing much. If somebody calls with an open-ender or gutshot, you're going to have to check and fold the river if they bluff. Not being able to bet the turn here is a consequence of being out of position.
On the river, betting and folding to a raise is almost always better than checking and calling. The exceptions are when there's a greater chance that your opponent will bluff than that they will call when losing, or when you are very possibly beaten but pot stuck and unable to fold to a raise (eg a set when flush and straight draws both fall on the river). Obviously neither of those are the case here, so you should bet.
Chris
Wardy,
I make this play, quite a bit. In fact, I have been thinking lately that I do it too much and need to slow down. Anyway...you have the first chance to steal this pot and your bet can be read as a second pair that just hit. I think the bluff is fine, and it will work at times. Some might say that you don't want to do it with so many players in the pot and they might be right. I can say I have done it multiway and it has worked. Overall, it might be too risky. Its even in my mind. Not a horrible play.
Once you are called in three places I think betting anymore is not a good idea. You took a shot and failed, oh well. Most likely, with a rather uncoordinated board, you are looking at one or two people being cute (slowplaying) and one or two people who just don't believe you. Between 'em you are toast.
You do improve on the river but I don't think you are getting called by anything worse than your hand and I don't think you are going to scare out 3 people. I would check and see who bets. If I read them as taking a shot, I'll call. In most cases though, I would expect them to have trips minimum. Don't bet just because you improve, think about what you are up against.
KJS
if BB called the turn I check the river. If not I lose the same as you.
You had a read on one of your opponents-the Weak Tight big blind. He called your bet on the turn-he likely has you beat. In addition, you have a couple others who had some reason for being around after the turn was bet.
It comes down to three tenets: 1. Consider what hand is out there. 2. Consider who holds it. 3. If you have a read, use it confidently. Don't ignore it.
I wouldn't make the turn bet out of position as if I get called it puts me in an impossible situation on the river. On the river you might as well bet because if you check and it is bet you'll have to call. You should fold to a raise though.
I assume you lost to an eight or a better ace.
Chris
Bad bluff for a couple of reasons.
1) Too many players left. I think 3 is even pushing it in low limit. You need an extremely good read to make this play with 4 players (and you had no read).
2) Not a great bluffing board. Much better would be K,8,8,4. With only a 10 high on the board you are very likely to get called by overcards (esp. on 3-6 paradise).
Check/call the river.
I've got a friend that I'm taking out to Vegas for his first time. He wants to learn Hold 'Em. Of course, Vegas isn't the best place to "learn", but nonetheless, I was wondering if anyone had an idea where the smallest games in the area are played.
And no, I'm not expecting the casino to be on the Strip! Recommendations are very much appreciated.
Palace station has a 2-4 game with a single 2$ blind. The game is often very easy, but can be kinda tight during the day when the retirees are in there trying to win the huge jackpots they typically have (because the jackpot is harder to hit there).
At one time, Circus Circus was giving poker lessons once a day. i believe they covered poker etiquitte, basic rules and some strategy. they then spread a low limit game for the people that took the lessons. Luxor may have been doing this for a while also.
Luxor, Mandalay Bay, Sahara, Circus, and Monte Carlo all spread games in the 1-4-8-8 range. The single blind game at the palace station might be best for him though.
Hello all...
Here's the deal. I've been playing hold 'em for about a year now. I began with some friends, and I have played probably about 400+ hours online. I've been to the casino 5 times...lost my first two, broke even once, and won twice. Since then I've studied and learned a lot.
Anywho, I think I'm ready to take a shot at playing at the casino more often, but I've read numerous times that it is best to have a separate bankroll to play with.
My question is : How much should I put aside as a bankroll to play $3-6? I've heard $1800, but I was hoping $1000 might cut it. What do you think? What did you gurus start off with?
Thanks in advance for any responses!!! :-)
---Jeff
I think a grand is sufficient for $3-$6. Conventional wisdom states that you need 300 big bets which would be $1800 but that really applies to middle limit games ($10-$20 and up) more than low limit games. I would buy in for $100 as a session bankroll and see how you do and how it feels.
I think that for the average low limit poker player who has a decent job, the concept of bankroll is very over-rated. If you can put together $1000 to $1800, great. It may be the best way to play. If you live near a casino and have a plan to play regularly then it may be more important. I play up to 4-8 about once every two months. My 'bankroll' is about $600. How did i get it? I pulled $400 out of the bank last year about this time and went to Tunica. I came back with about $700. I took $300 and put it aside. I went to vegas in november. I took another $400 and added it to the $300. I came back with about $1000. I put the $700 away and put the other three to the trip expenses. Since then I have lost about $100 overall. For me, this is the best way to build a 'bankroll.'
"Conventional wisdom states that you need 300 big bets which would be $1800 but that really applies to middle limit games ($10-$20 and up) more than low limit games"
I don't understand this statement. If 300BB is advisable for middle limits, why would less than 300 be sufficient for low limit? Low limit is an inherently higher variance game, variance being what the bankroll is there to protect against.
So WGB,
Do you agree that I should start with $1800 or so???
Jeff,
I stand very far afield from the conventional wisdom on this issue. I actually believe your poker bankroll should be 800 or 1000 BB. That's 1000 BB that you have mentally committed to the game, such that you could deal with losing all of it and it wouldn't substantially alter your lifestyle or create financial difficulties for you. Preferably this bankroll will be comprised entirely of funds you have already won playing poker. Now don't get me wrong, you don't *need* this much. Actually you don't need anywhere near this much. But for me it's a psychological thing. I play poker for chips, not money. I believe when you take the money mentality out of the game you immediately have a big edge (no, make that a huge edge) over most of your opponents. By having a bankroll that towers over any conceivable session loss, you can leave after a couple or a few substantial and consecutive session losses with the feeling you've not even dented your bankroll. As a result, you can walk into your next session on the balls of your feet instead of being on your heels. You won't be second guessing yourself or saying to yourself "Oh no, what if I lose again tonight?".
Now as I said, this is just my own personal philosophy. Poker is my only source of income, so I need the security of knowing that there is no conceivable way I can get knocked out of the game. Some very different considerations might apply for someone who isn't married to the game. I mean, if you have a job and play low limit poker just for fun you may not really require any bankroll at all. For example, instead of spending the $100 in your entertainment budget going out drinking or playing golf or taking your girlfriend to a posh restaurant, you go play some 3-6 instead. If you lose it, oh well, you just don't play again for another month until you have another $100 you can justify blowing. This is an OK way to do it too, but it's not well suited to the serious player who wants to play 20-60 hours a week.
So I guess it comes down to your motivations and aspirations. All I can say is that whatever resources you do devote to the game you really should play only with money you can truly afford to lose. It's true what they say about "scared money". It just doesn't play very well.
Now if all you can play is $1000, I guess its better to give it a whirl rather than sit on the rail. But don't get antsy if you happen to lose half your "bankroll" in your first three sessions. And I'd say keep putting *all* your winnings into your bankroll until you get up into that 800BB range (it really doesn't take that long). In the meantime, play a very solid low variance game even if it means giving up some +EV in the process.
Sorry for the longwindedness, but you asked. This is an issue I feel strongly about.
Good Luck!
Because bankroll is also a strong function of your win rate. A win rate of greater than one big bet per hour is quite attainable in a low limit game like $3-$6 since the primary attribute to beat these games is to know what a good starting hand is and you are usually playing against a significant number of novices. In middle limit poker it is much harder to beat those games for anything close to one big bet per hour because you need a much larger skill set and the percentage of novices is much smaller.
How much should I put aside as a bankroll How much money are you willing to lose, and can resonable expect to obtain, before you decide to quit playing poker? This is the amount that should be your bankroll.
For an occasional $3-6 player who is starting out and doesn't rely on poker winnings then $1000 will do, just remember your risk of ruin is fairly high. So don't be surprised if you lose it, I've seen some players lose that much in a single session!
Play tight and have fun :)
Jim Roy
...is the "right" one.
There is only one "wrong" bankroll management technique, which is to increase your betting limits faster than your win rate will support. (If you go up in limits every time you hit a hot strak, you will eventually hit a bad streak at a high limit and bust out).
Its important to keep records, and figure out your win rate and standard deviation. The you can _choose_ your risk level. If you can tolerate a relatively high risk of busting out, say 10%, you can use 1.8 * STD^2/ win-rate. If you want wgd's security, use 3*STD^2/win_rate. (btw, excellent essay above, wgd!)
But it is your hard earned $ at stake, so I think you owe it to yourself to do more than blindly ask "how much do I need?" You need to have a handle on your numbers, and the risk you are taking. Then when the inevitable good and bad swings come, you wont be too concerned.
Best,
zooey
I often have this problem:
AJo
Flop comes A 10 5 (2 hearts)
I bet and got 2 callers.
Turn: 6 no heart
I bet, 1 or 2 callers
River: 8 hearts
Now better checking or bet into a possible heart flush?
Thanks for help
RA
Bet, and Fold to a raise
Depends a bit on your opponents IMO. If they are capable a bluff raising you here with a worse hand than yours, then I would check, hoping to induce a bluff. If your opponents are straightforward players, who would only raise here with a flush or an other better hands than yours, then I would bet out and fold to a raise, as Wardy said.
Regards
Read Thoery of Poker. I think it does a great job explaining how to play the river in situations like this.
In this particular situation, I think check-call is the way to go. However, a read on the other players is important (as always).
The third flush card is double trouble for you.
If they have the flush, you certainly don't want to bet into it.
Also, the third flush card also makes it less likely they will pay you off with a worse hand. The third flush card is scary to them in two ways (if they don't have the flush). One, you could have the flush. Second, you are also possibly saying, "my hand is strong enough to bet into a potential flush". They will probably through away any Ax hand or K,K type hand.
However, against fish go ahead and bet.
I dont know for sure if this is a response to my post or to RA's. But yes, I read the Theory of Poker. And I still think check-calling is the way if your opponents can be tricky and betting into them if they're no tricky. You know the reasons for check-calling. I'd like to bet into them if they're none tricky because it still cost you the same if they have a flush than check-calling, and if they're non-tricky they would probably check behind you if they have a weaker ace or something, although they would probably pay you off if you bet. So in that case you often loose a BB IMO if you check.
Regards
Sorry, I was replying to RA's post.
I like your analysis. if you think that a lower A or pocket pair will pay you off and they are not tricky then a bet would be appropriate.
Also, if they are overly tricking and aggressive it might be correct to bet and pay off the raise.
I would categorize anyone who would call with Ax as a fish. You have been betting the whole way and continue to bet into a three flush on the river. I would alomst never pay it off with Ax (although I would never be in such a situation because I would have folded or raised the flop with such a hand).
bluff raising in low limit??? Almost never happens....Most low limit players can't even spell their name, much less make a fancy play.
I would check and call. If you have the best hand, the most it costs you is one bet (if they called with a worse hand when you bet, which I doubt would happen). If you are beaten, it is a wash (assuming they aren't going to fold a better hand--this is possible, if they had an AQ for example, though their betting doesn't support this hand at all). The advantage is you won't get bluffed. Close, but I think check/call is the way to go.
I would definitely check and call one bet. You may be beat by a better A, 2 pair, or the hearts, but you have a reasonable chance of being the best. If you bet and are raised you probably have to fold... so don't bet IMO.
Derrick
Check.
You will sometimes miss collecting more, if you do hold best and will save if not.
You may not even have best with only J kicker. at river, with flush possible ( or two pair), why are they calling?
One more thought, on the occasions where you check with top pair in this situation, and you do win on showdown, you do create a strong image. After this play, there will be some folds early on to your bets that could otherwise resulted in suck outs against you, that occur because of respect for you hand.
For example, if you raised with AQ and missed but there was a K on board and you bet first or were checked to and bet, your prior play will have have greater effect and you may win outright then, or later.
It hard to call a player who consistently appears to bet top pair.
Long term and respect will count.
Short term and long term, once the possible flush is on board and you have two or more other players, I say just check.
Just to clarify my previous response... since this is the small stakes forum Im assuming the players are weakish..
In this case they will call to the river with any ace and will pay you off..
the reason I like a bet here (and folding to a raise) is..
A:) people don't often bluff raise the river at low limit
B:) you may be losing to a flush, but if it is a low flush some passive players still won't raise here, fearing a bigger flush.
C:) most bad players will call the river with any pair so I tend to bet every time If they haven't shown any strength.
Checking and calling costs you one bet. Betting out and then folding to a raise costs you that same bet. Checking and calling gives you every chance to win the pot. Betting and then folding might cause you to fold the best hand, although I admit that it's somewhat unlikely that you'll be raised as a bluff. Winning this pot is much more important than trying to win one more bet. The problem with betting out is that, in my experience, it is rather unlikely that a worse hand will call. I think that, from a Fundamental Theorem standpoint, you need to have a 55% chance of having the best hand when you are called for the bet to be profitable. I don't think we're close to that in this case.
Hey all,
Have a humorous 6-12 hand that I had the misfortune of playing tonight. Hope you all enjoy this.
I'm in MP with AhAd. 1 limper to me, I raise... two cold calls including the button. BB comes along for another small bet.
5 players, $60 in pot.
Flop comes QJ3 with 2 diamonds
Checked to me, I bet everybody calls... uh oh. I've never prayed for a 3 so hard in all my life.
Turn come 10 of diamonds, gives me the nut flush draw with a gutshot royal draw.
Check to the button who bets (I figured that I'm behind now most likely to two pair). Everyone else drops, now to me. Hmmm... I picked up a few more outs and getting about 8:1 on a call. I call.
River comes an offsuit 3 pairing the board.
I figure I might be good here so I bet and get called by the button. Oh goody, my hand is... nnnot good. Button shows K9 offsuit (both black cards). Wow. I started laughing hysterically as I mucked.
Woof, woof my good man. The big dog eats the $120 pot. Comments definitely welcome. In hindsight, I think my turn play might have been very weak (I could well have had AK for the nut straight). How about the river bet? Was it advisable or just bad judgment?
Best wishes, Mike
I think you conclude too fast that someone has two pair. Just because they all called your flop bet you think they have two pair??? What about a flush draw, a lone queen, a jack, a straightdraw, even a gutshot to broadway had the odds to call. Heck, what would someone have in your opinion if he raised you?!?
With the T of diamonds on the turn, flushdraw have gotten their card, and AK made a straight (AK is possible because of the coldcallers IMO). There are 7.5 BB in the pot, when you decide to check. I would bet out, trying to know where my opponents are. If you get raised, call the raise with your nutflush draw, but there could be a chance that your straight is no good.
When you had bet out on the turn you would know something about the strength of the opponents hands. If they all called again, I would again bet the river, but if I was raised, I certainly wouldnt bet out on the river, since a flush (or straight) is very likely. If a fairly passive player had raised me on the turn, I would check-fold.
Regards
So I'm in my usual 3-6-12 game the other day with the usual cast of clowns. The usual: loose-passive preflop, loose-passive throughout every hand.
So I have ATo on the button and limp in with 2 others, SB folds and BB checks. Flop is AJ4. Action is check-check-bet to me. I raise. Action is fold-call-raise to me. The raiser is usually a very timid player so I muck my top pair. Turn and river are Ace and Jack so I would have won.
But this is really just the beginning of my story. I look at the board and say to the people around me that I would have won and I ask the raiser whether my AT was any good on the flop, and she says she had pocket 4s for a set. Then some guy on my right pipes up and says to me that I shouldn't be raising, just check-call check-call check-call and then if it's good on the river raise because it's 24 (I play in a 3-6-12 game). Now this guy is the loosest, worst player on the table by far. You know the kind, calls you down with any pair just in case he spikes his kicker. Then he calls the river whether or not he spikes.
Now, I used to think he was some kind of moron for doing this over and over again and not noticing that he's losing a ton of money. It's not that he's stupid--he's devised a strategy based on the 12 bet on the end. That's all any of the clowns there play for. Not that it's a great strategy, but it is theirs.
Until he told me this the other night, I couldn't understand why it was that every time I led the betting, people would call me all the way down with 2nd and 3rd pair no kicker. And it was very frustrating that I couldn't really punish their bad calls because I would bet and they would call--one bet per street. So it's not that they're dumb. They know that they're drawing against at least top-pair usually, but can't resist the lure of the river payoff.
So I started check-raising top-pair good kicker hands, and disguised it by check-raising any sort of draw I would usually play. Basically I always check-raise the flop if I'm going to play. But that's another story.
So here's the point of my story and a question for you: What is/are the worst mistakes made at typical low-limit games? How large are these mistakes? What can you do to make the players who make these mistakes pay in excess?
I'm collecting a set of the worst beats that I've taken in 0.5/1 Paradise and I'm analyzing these hands. Every once in a while, I'll post whatever useful info I find.
First off, your post is medium, not long, when I say LONG you know it's LONG….
Second, I can already see a potential problemo in this game of yours, the discussion of strategy, I hope you are not talking strategy with these loose passive clowns
I am not as fond of this structure because the fish get to draw against you for cheap, but then they can raise you on the river for double the turn bet. You should play more draws against them for the same reason. Also, since they are typically calling to the end with trash, you can expect to get drawn out on more often in this game, because the big river bet is attracting more chasers.
Typically, the biggest mistakes made by bad players are calling flop raises with poor draws like underpairs, bottom pair when their cards might make someone else a flush or str8, gutshots, and backdoor draws. If they call turn raises with these hands they are making collosal mistakes. Of course in your 3-6-12 game, these mistakes are not going to be as pronounced, because of the large river bet payoff they can often expect when they make their draws.
One strategy I might try in this game is to frequently wait till the turn to put in a pot-thinning raise, because that large payoff on the river is going to make most fish virtually ignore any flop raises. The implied odds in this game are higher, especially if you have calling stations who will pay the big river bet the same as if it were a standard game. The fish instinctively know this, even if they can't quantify or define it properly. You need to consider this as well, and adjust your strategy. Play every reasonable drawing hand you can before the flop, then pull the same crapola on your opponents, except you will pay more attention to pot odds, etc, and won't draw to complete crapola, but will stick to better draws.
Unfortunately, when the pots are large, it is difficult to make your opponents make mistakes that are very large. And when the river payoff is double what it usually is, it's even harder. I am really glad I am not forced to play in this structure very often, the only time I really have to deal with it is in an occasional home game I play in, but then the players are so poor it hardly matters anyway.
One other thing I would do is to NOT pay off on the river when it is fairly clear that someone outdrew you, don't reward them for chasing by paying them off double.
Dave in Cali
How about a question about re-raising pre-flop and then folding when someone caps it and the action is back to you with no cards on board and 7:1 odds for you to call one more bet.
Would you ever fold in this situation?
I bet I know the answer.
KJS
I think the biggest mistakes in LL HE are
1) checking when you should bet 2) calling when you should raise 3) calling when you should fold
Your #1 way to make LL players pay is to make them pay. When you are safely ahead, charge them as much as possible to continue chasing you (with a legitimate draw or a 'come on kicker!' draw). You want to punish people for playing too many hands pre-flop and playing them too long.
I think it is important for good LL players to know when to slow down. I think too many of us try to bully every pot where we have a some sort of hand and some position. When people check and call too much, you are bound to get called down with your mediocre hands too. Don't try to buy a pot with AK on the river when one or two people have stuck with you.
Dave mentions not paying off as well. This is extrememly important in multiway situations. Too many "good" LL players ram and jam with their top pair and still pay the river when the card bring a 4 straight, possible flush, etc. and someone bets for the first time all hand and another calls. Know your players well enough to know who won't bet a hand on the river that you can beat.
When I am bored and play very LL I just tell myself not to think that a premium hand is a sure thing. I still raise when I should pre-flop and play aggressive but I don't mind tossing my AA when the board is coordinated and lots of people are still in. That is that. Another situation will present itself soon enough and the fish will pay me off.
KJS
PS. What can be learned from a collection of bad beats? Very little, IMO.
The point of this example isn't the bad beat (although that's ugly). It's the analysis that follows.
Game #81828867 - $0.50/$1 Hold'em - 2001/06/09-02:35:32 (CST)
Table "Comoros" (real money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: MayorSA ($25 in chips)
Seat 2: nommad ($16.25 in chips)
Seat 3: marc1001 ($46.50 in chips)
Seat 4: AaronLovi ($15 in chips)
Seat 6: dandrige ($13 in chips)
Seat 7: Simon_T ($13 in chips)
Seat 8: TerrTerr ($111 in chips)
Seat 9: Liarr ($18 in chips)
Seat 10: RobiCH ($113.50 in chips)
Simon_T : Post Small Blind ($0.25)
TerrTerr: Post Big Blind ($0.50)
MayorSA : Sit out
Dealing...
Dealt to AaronLovi [ 9c ]
Dealt to AaronLovi [ Ac ]
Liarr : Call ($0.50)
RobiCH : Fold
nommad : Fold
marc1001: Fold
AaronLovi: Raise ($1)
dandrige: Fold
Simon_T : Fold
TerrTerr: Call ($0.50)
Liarr : Call ($0.50)
*** FLOP *** : [ Ah Kd 4c ]
TerrTerr: Check
Liarr : Check
AaronLovi: Bet ($0.50)
TerrTerr: Call ($0.50)
Liarr : Call ($0.50)
*** TURN *** : [ Ah Kd 4c ] [ 3d ]
TerrTerr: Check
Liarr : Check
AaronLovi: Bet ($1)
TerrTerr: Call ($1)
Liarr : Fold
*** RIVER *** : [ Ah Kd 4c 3d ] [ 4d ]
TerrTerr: Bet ($1)
AaronLovi: Call ($1)
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $8.50 | Rake: $0.25
Board: [ Ah Kd 4c 3d 4d ]
MayorSA didn't bet
nommad didn't bet (folded)
marc1001 didn't bet (folded)
AaronLovi lost $3.50 [ 9c Ac ] (two pair, aces and fours)
dandrige didn't bet (folded)
Simon_T lost $0.25 (folded)
TerrTerr bet $3.50, collected $8.50, net +$5 (showed hand) [ 2d 8d ]
(a flush, king high)
Liarr lost $1.50 (folded)
RobiCH didn't bet (folded)
--------------------------------------------
We can do a fundamental theorem of poker analysis for the flop here. I don't think you can fault either player for the turn or river play. It's also too complicated to say anything about defending the blind with 8d2d (although I don't think that's a good defense).
To summarize: Player A (in big blind) has 8d2d Player B has Ac9c. The flop is AhKd4c. And there's $5.25 in on the flop.
Basically we turn the cards face up and see what A can expect for a check-call. By the way, A's EV for a fold is 0. If A's EV for a check-call is between 0 and 1 then he still has to check-call, but his before the flop call turns out to be bad. If A's EV for a check-call is greater than $1 then he can still say he's turning a profit for the hand.
By my count, there are 28 combinations of 8's and 2's that can hit the turn and river to produce a winning hand for player A. For instance, turn 8c river 2c is no good since then B makes the winning flush. But turn 8c river 2h is good for A. In these 28 cases, A will probably check-call the turn and check-raise the river.
I count 86 combinations for a running diamond flush for A to win. There are four running diamond combinations where A does not win: AdKd, KdAd, Ad4d, 4dAd. In these 86 cases, A will check-call the turn and bet out and be called on the river.
Since all the cards are turned face up, there are 45*44 = 1980 combinations for turn and river cards in total. A will win in 28+86 = 114 combinations or 5.76% of the time.
There are 45 possible turn cards. 10 are diamonds, and 6 are 8's and 2's. So there are 16 turn cards where A will be obligated to call the turn. Then there are 29 turn cards where A will check-fold the turn and invest only $0.5 for the flop.
We subtract the $0.25 in cases where A wins since he will have to pay the rake.
On the flop, A's EV for a check-call is:
(28/1980)(9.75-0.25) + (86/1980)(7.75-0.25) +
(16/45)(-1.5) + (29/45)(-0.5) =
$-0.3955
I don't think we need to calculate what A's EV is if the flop is raised somehow.
Take a look at how small the mistake is though. I'm guessing $0.25 for calling before the flop, and another $0.40 for calling the flop. For this sort of mistake that looks huge you're not even picking up 1 big bet in the long run?
Ok, so calling a flop with undercards and a running flush draw is probably a mistake since you can't even beat a bluff so we can't add this soft factor into an EV calculation. I think it would be more interesting if someone would do this same calculation for what they believe to be more subtle mistakes or more complicated situations and then posted them here so we could start up a catalog of beginner mistakes and their costs.
ps. I hope I'm not miscalculating pot and rake sizes. I think I got the number of combinations at each step right though
.
So its a bad call. Don't be fooled by the fact that the EV is "only" -0.40. Thats 80% of one SB, or 40% of your hoped for hourly earn of 1BB.
It also doesn't take into account the situations where either the flush draw will be no good (B has a bigger flush) or the two pair/trips will be no good (B has flopped a set).
Unless A backs off from hands where he's a 16-1 dog on the flop, he will (1) find many of these and (2) lose many big bets an hour, probably on the order of 6 or more. So while you're looking at the smallness of A losing less than a big bet in this particular hand, at the same time he can single-handedly make every normally tight player at the table a winner. That's quite an accomplishment.
First off, posting the hand history is a long and drawn out way to describe a situation which could easily be described in just one easy paragraph. for example:
A gets dealt Ac9c in the cutoff and raises a single UTG limper. The button and SB fold and the BB call, as does the limper. 3 players, 6 SB in the pot. The flop comes Ah Kd 4c. BB and UTG check, A bets and both opponents call. The turn is the 3d. BB and UTG check, A bets, UTG folds and the BB calls. The river is the 4d. The BB bets and A calls. BB wins with 8d2d for the backdoor flush.
Many people don't like to read long posts, especially if they have a lot of extraneous information, such as hand histories from the internet do. You will get better results from your posts if you make them say a lot in a small space, saying less says so much more. Then you can add commentary if you like, most of my posts are almost entirely commentary, the actual description of the action only takes a few sentences.
I think the interesting thing on this hand is how bad 8c2c's call is on the flop. If your calculations are right, (I ain't counting them myself, but your figure sounds right, the nubers are less important than the concepts), and he has about a 5.75% chance of drawing out by the river, then he is making a collosal mistake by calling on the flop. However, his EV has to be somewhere between the entirety of what is in the pot (or possibly what may be in the pot later) on the positive side and the entirety of what he is putting into the pot on the negative side. Soooooo… He cannot be making more than a 1 SB mistake by calling the flop, i.e. his EV for his call cannot be worse than –1 SB***. This probably has a lot to do with WHY people don't realize how bad of a mistake they are making when they make a call, because the most it can cost them is 1 bet (assuming it is not raised). Even then, they don't think of it as making a –EV bet, they think of it as "it's only 3$" or whatever the amount of the small bet is.
On the flip side, A, with the best hand, cannot really be benefiting a very large amount from the call either. Assuming he is WAY ahead, he could have an EV approaching the entirety of the pot, but not quite reaching it, as long as his opponent(s) have some chance of drawing out. However, he only benefits from the bad call up to the entirety of the amount put into the pot by the caller, i.e. he cannot benefit from the bad call by more than the amount of the call, 1 SB. However, he CAN wind up losing the entire pot as a result of someone making a bad call, which is why you often want to get people to fold, even if they are making a mistake by calling.
There comes a point where someone's call is SO BAD that you would actually rather have them call then fold, but most of the time you will not be this far ahead, and you would rather have them fold. I generally would rather have a backdoor flush fold on the flop, because if they hit one of their flush cards on the turn, they very well may have a positive expectation going into the river (even though they made a –EV bet to get there). I don't gain much – less than one small bet - by them calling on the flop, but their positive expectation on the turn may wind up being several bets, and this is coming out of my equity in the pot. This is why in Holdem you often don't even want to let someone call the flop who might even pick up a DRAW to beat you on the turn. In multiway pots these principles become even more important, as several very weak draws might turn into one big collective draw against you.
Dave in Cali
***It should be noted that there might be rare exceptions to this principle, such as if your opponent flopped an unbeatable monster, and you call, drawing to a hand that can't beat it, you might lose a bunch more if you make your hand, which might possibly give you a negative EV of greater than the amount you called, due to reverse implied odds. The opposite might occasionally be true if you are the bettor and someone calls you drawing to a hand that cannot beat what you already have.
I was just wondering if anyone who has played paradise poker at the 2/4 level could give some info on the typical players they encounter. I have found that most of them will play any two suited cards and most will play any ace. Does anyone else agree?
I was just wondering if anyone who has played paradise poker at the 2/4 level could give some info on the typical players they encounter. I have found that most of them will play any two suited cards and most will play any ace. Does anyone else agree?
The vast majority of players at 2-4 HE and 2-4 O8 are not very good. Besides any two suited and any ace, there are players who literally will see every flop. It is important to keep track of these players (although there is a good chance they won't be around very long) if you intend to continue play at the 2-4 level.
The reasons for this are many:
1) If this player also is a calling station after the flop, you CANNOT bluff him/her out of a pot. Don't bother trying.
2) If you can get good position on him/her, it is almost like having a partner in the game.
3) They usually are not very tricky - if a scare card hits, and you get raised, you can generally lay down something like top pair-good kicker without worrying about it being the best hand.
I don't think you can make many blanket statements about the Paradise 2/4 players. Be careful, there are some very good 2/4 players out there. Don't underestimate the player simply because he/she is playing 2/4.
Look for a table lineup you like (for me - as for many players - it is loose/passive players).
Do not be afraid to switch tables it the players are good.
You have to be aware of the particular players at 2/4. The players that see 80% of flops are easy to spot.
There are other players who play any suited 2-gaps or less connectors and any 2 face cards, more or less. They also tend not to respect raises, and they are oblivious to position. When compared to the 1 or 2 real bad players at the table, you can miss these guys. They are just significantly looser than they ought to be, but they aren't maniacs and they aren't exactly calling stations either; in other words, they don't make glaringly bad plays late in the hand. It's easy to think these players are a lot worse then they actually are. When that happens, you end up calling these guys down too much because you don't trust them; this is especially true in multiway pots. Anyway, I find these types of players to be more typical opponents than the 80+% of flops kind.
Also be warned that there are usually 3 or 4 tight players at any table, but you don't end up playing with them very often.
I am wondering if this was a missed slowplay opportunity. $2-$5 spread limit. Not a lot of pre-flop raising in this game, but sometimes aggressive play after the flop.
4 limpers to me, I call with AQo, the 1 blind calls.
Flop is KJT rainbow.
Blind checks, mid-early-position player bets $5, mid-late-position raises, I raise, everybody else folds, they both call. Would a call have been a better play here? I'm thinking I missed an opportunity for a raise later.
Turn and river are rags, and end up as check-check-bet-call-call and I take a decent pot.
Mid-early-position shows Q9, mid-late-position shows JJ.
Thanks - Mike
Yes, but at the beginning. You should have raised pre-flop with AQ.
Before the flop, you might have been re-raised by JJ, but probably not.
After the flop, Q9 or JJ may have bet on flop, and I would might just call or raise, for possible bigger play on turn, but it could have been interesting since both other players hold good cards. If they had checked to you, wanting to re-raise, this would get very good for you.
This could have been a BIG pot.
A RAISE PRE-FLOP would have paid off very nicely.
I think the hands of your opponents should provide proof enough of exactly why the answer is NO. Flopped straights should basically NEVER be slowplayed, especially not in a multiway pot!! They have a tendency to give other people draws which would force you to give up half the pot (or more), plus sometimes someone else has a monster that is not quite as good (like the guy with Q9, what kind of ultra-passive calling station is he anyway? that hand should have had major action). Also, any pair on the board and you LOSE, might as well charge a set of jacks to draw. Plus, with broadway cards on the flop, if the board pairs high, a full house is a distinct possibility, because people tend to play two broadway cards.
So in short, the is DEFINITELY NOT A HAND YOU WOULD WANT TO SLOWPLAY.
Dave in Cali
i think the term slowplay is definitely in need of some consideration though. slowplay would be to check call this hand. there was already a bet and a raise here. the price was being paid by those 2 hands already, and they weren't going to fold. a call could have meant a couple more double bets at the very least. not reraising with weak players left behind you left to call a double bet is not slowplaying in my opinion. Mike is doing whatever it takes to build a pot that he is a favorite to win. sometimes it is not the representation of strength that causes a player to fold, but the fact that it costs too much to chase. somebody with a hand that was drawing very thin may have mistakenly called 2 bets, but 3 was just too much, plus it represented significantly more strength than those suck-out artists usually give bettors credit for. a bet and a raise may have only triggered the top pair/kicker war signal in the folder's head, but a reraise from a third player is saying either i have a big set made, or i have a straight. maybe you could call this slowplaying, but it is not costing you a bet, and you are in the lead by far with this hand. you are not allowing a mathematical error to occur by failing to make your opponents pay to draw to beat you. you are merely letting somebody else do the betting and raising, and hoping to entice them to continue, while making it cheap enough for those drawing super slim to still pay you off because your strength is not suspected.
I agree with your general analysis but I think it is misapplied here.
You are not neccessarily slowplaying. You are letting others do the betting for you. There is a big difference between lead betting/raising this hand and three betting this hand.
The deception value here is extremely high. You might even consider calling the turn if it goes bet/raise to you.
You three bet into an extremely dangerous board. You will get no additional action unless you are tied or get beat on the river.
In low limit, deception almost never works-they aren't paying attention anyway. As for the river, it depends on what they think you have(2nd level thinking).
I agree for this situation., a slowplay is not called far-because of the three face flop, why give people full house draws?? Make them pay..
Hi there,
I am wondering what people think about attempting to steal preflop in reasonably tight low limit games (such as the occasional Paradise table). Often I find that it is folded to me in late position and that I am unsure what the best action is. Limping in with a semi-decent hand (a weak ace or two face cards) seems pretty weak to me. What hands do you guys figure are good for a raise? Either to steal the blinds or as a value bet.
Thanks,
Marc
I open-raise virtually every time from late postion on paradise(last three spots).
I adjust what hands I will open-raise with depending on the players.
I agree..I would never open limp in late position, and your starting hands depend, as dk said, on how well you can handle your opponents postflop.
Recently I was playing in a $3-$6 Hold-em game and I was in the big blind. I was dealt A-8s. I limped in and got two of my suit on the flop plus an 8. Under the gun, I bet out and was called by three players. On the turn my suit hit again giving me the Ace flush.
When that hit I reached for my checks to bet and noticed the guy to my left also reaching for his. He had a habit of betting, not necessarily out of turn, at the same time that the leader would bet. I immediately pulled back and checked (hoping to check raise). To my chagrin he also checked, as did the others still in the hand. I of course bet out on the river and got called only by him and took the hand.
I am just curious what anyone might think about what happened. I felt that I really screwed myself. That play cost me a good deal of money.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Joe
Unless this other player was consistently doing this AND actually calling a bet, or still did bet if the first to act hesitated and did not, it might be safe to conclude that the player is going to call or bet no matter what.
But when this occurs without a set pattern, IMO most of the time that player is making an angle play to seduce you into not betting.
If I do not have any clue, I bet. If I have some info that makes me believe that the player will really bet, then I can possible go for a check raise.
When in doubt, play your hand for its value.
The guy obviously made an angle play on you. Shame on you for falling for such an old trick. LOL
I like to lead bet here especially since you led the flop. People will be less likely to put you on the flush and will call with about any 4-flush. Sometimes they might make a semi-bluff raise at you representing the flush(e.g, with the K of the flush suit).
Also, you kill the action with a checkraise. Either they will fold on the turn or they will fold on the river. Don't represent the flush.
Read "The Body Language of Poker" by Mike Caro.
Also, take a look at him before you reach for your chips. Every observant person at the table will know that you are planning to check-raise otherwise.
Your mistake was allowing your opponent to see that you intended to bet. When it was obvious to him that you saw HIM about to bet, but then checked, it was also probably obvious that you were going to check-raise. You telegraphed your intentions, something you should be looking for in your opponents, not doing yourself. I like to shuffle chips when I am waiting for my turn to act. I always shuffle a stack of about 12. It makes no difference which hand I shuffle with, when my turn comes to act, if I am going to put chips into the pot, I get them from my main stack, not the chips I was shuffling. This prevents my opponents from having a reliable telegraph on me, but to the unobservant, it looks as if I am always about to bet. Don't telegraph, and don't get greedy trying for check-raises on the turn. The turn is a great round to get it checked around, so betting out with a good hand is usually a good idea. Your greed probably cost you several big bets.
Dave in Cali
Just got back from a session and I'd like some comments on some hands I played. This is a typical low limit game in that there are usually between 5-8 players in each pot and it could be raised. Also, it's hard to get players to fold on the flop.
Hand #1 ------------- I'm in SB w/ AKo. There's a raise in middle position. 7 people in the pot. I cold call because I'm out of this pot if the flop doesn't hit me. Flop is KhQc4s Guy on the button just started playing for first time today and is very aggressive but has been getting good cards, too. Some hands he has nothing and sometimes he has the nuts. I decide to checkraise and hopefully get some people out of the pot. Button sure enough bets and I raise. Only a couple people folded to it, though. Is this one of those situations where a delayed raise might be better (wait till the turn to check-raise and but pressure on everyone to fold)? Anyway, turn is 8h. I bet out and am called in two places. River is 9s. At this point I'm a little worried about TJ. I check to guy on button who bets. I call his bet and he turns over 99 to take the pot down. I would have lost this hand no matter what with this guy staying in, but nonetheless, did I play it right? Is this the type of situation to wait till the turn?
Hand 2: ------------ I'm in middle position w/ A6h and there are already a couple callers, so I call hoping to catch a flush draw. Unfortunately, everyone folded behind me to the button who called and and the big blind called. There are 5 people in the pot. Flop is 682r. BB bets, everyone folds to me. This guy will bet with overcards, any draw, and any pair. I make a read and raise, button folds. He calls (this might mean he has a pair and wasn't on a bluff). Turn is J. He checked, I checked. River is a T. He bets into me. The real question here is what to do on the turn in a common situation like this. This player was very loose and could have anything on the button (any two suited cards for sure). What do I do on the river now that I showed weakness. I called him down and he showed me ATc to win the pot. This was probably a really weak call.
Thanks for comments in advance.
Jeff Gomberg
#1 You first hand is confusing. Did the button raise or a mid-position player raise? If button, I would also check-raise the flop. If mid-postion, I will lead out and hope to get raised. The rest of the play is fine.
Don't try to get too fancy with delayed raises. Also, this isn't the kind of situation for that.
#2 Why did you raise the flop? The only good reason is that you put him on a semi-bluff and you were defending against it. You can only make this play if you think he is going to fold to the raise or to a turn bet. If he is going to call all the way then I dump here. Simply not good enough to call or raise for value. If you raise, you absolutely have to bet the turn.
Also, he bet into 4 players which signals a lot more strength then betting into you heads up.
When he bets the river - muck it.
Hand 1:
This pot is big, do everything you can do win it ASAP. That means ram and jam on the flop. Checkraising is good. You need to let the table know they are going to pay a maximum to take a shot at this pot. Do not wait until the turn when the pot is big on the front end. Win it now! Also, checkraising on the turn is not a good option because there is no guarantee anyone will bet. Checkraise the flop and bet out on the turn. The fish will call. Bad luck on the river. I am guessing you won some of those back.
Hand 2:
I like your read and flop raise but you do need to follow up for this plan to be effective. If you bet the turn he might lay down a better hand because you have shown strength. He will very likely throw overcards. Don't give him a free chance to hit a better pair. The way it turned out, you put in 1 bet in the last 2 streets. Put it in on the turn. If he calls then check it through on the river if he checks again.
KJS
Paradise 2-4. Qh Jc in the BB.
UTG calls, EP calls, SB calls, I check.
Flop: 5h Jh 4h
SB bets, I raise, UTG cold calls, EP cold calls, SB calls.
Turn: 5h Jh 4h 9h
SB checks, I check, UTG checks, EP bets, SB folds, I call, UTG calls.
River: 5h Jh 4h 9h Qs
I check, UTG checks, EP bets, I call, UTG calls.
Comments?
EP had the ace. When do I get away from the hand? Flop raise seems correct (to me), but the two cold calls scare me bad. Then on the turn the LAST player to act bet. Can I just fold? Once I call the turn I have to call the river, right? I don't know how or when I should get away from this hand.
sam
I think the flop raise is good if you think your hand is best at the moment. The two cold calls either tells me one of them at least has a draw to the ace or king or even a made hand that they want to raise on the turn with. I think when the fourth heart appears it is time to muck. You can make a desperation bet and fold to a raise, too, but it doesn't look like you have the best hand at this point.
Just my two cents,
Jeff Gomberg
Bet the turn and dump to a raise. Take yourself out of a guessing game.
I think the flop raise is interesting. I would raise but I don't know if it is the correct play. You don't want to get 3-bet here. I am curious as to what others say about this.
I think that a raise would force out hands that didn't have a heart but anyone with the K or A is most definately going to stay with you. I would probably call since you checked the turn and the other players might have put you on top pair or maybe a small flush on the flop.
The flop raise is good, if they fold, you win. It happens. If they call, it is good too, more or less, *probably* at 2-4 no one has a flush yet, nor do they have AhJx. If they re-raise, dump it.
On the fourth heart on the turn at Paradise 2-4 with this many players, you MUST fold. You will win 5% of the time, and give up 2 big bets or more 95% of the time. This is a major leak which you must close. (last night I was playing on Paradise, bigger game, 4 players, I raised from the button with JTs, got heads up; the flop came 983;he bet, I raised --> maybe I win right here. He called my raise. the turn came 7, he checked (my raise was good, I got a free card in case I didn't hit) I bet the guy called me on the turn and river. He lost 2+ bb's for no reason other than stubbornness. I haven't looked at his cards yet [ you know you can see them if he calls to the end] but I bet he has K9 or J9 or worse. If one of the 4 cards which help me doesn't hit on either the turn or river, I call on the end *if* I have to.)
A big key to this game is knowing when you are drawing dead or close to dead. Your example is one of those occasions.
Mark
Well the 2 cold calls do suggest a big heart is probably there. 2 Jacks are accounted for (2.5 given the SB flop bet?), the other cards are rags, the Qh is in your hand. I doubt that someone will call 2 bets cold with a 10 high heart draw or a weak J (but hey, this is 2-4 so who knows). I don't think you'd be going too far wrong to check and fold on the turn if the guy who bets has any credibility in your mind. You also have to worry about the non-bettor with position on you who could be slowplaying the big heart. You are only getting about 4:1 on your turn call (assuming he will bet again on the river), so to me it comes down to asking yourself if this person will be bluffing here (given all the situational information you have) more or less than 1 time in 5. I think it's quite close so I would call down sometimes, but usually opt for the low variance fold. I have seen this scenario many times and it is surprising how often you will be beat in 2 places!
Good Luck!
Good flop play. You have a made hand that is probably best and will get called by the draws.
On the turn, checking is not a good option. You will get very little information whether or not you are beat. Bet and see what happens. Most likely you will get raised and you can safely fold. IF you get called in more than one place you really need to think about their holdings.
Checking and calling is very often the worst option in LL hold 'em.
KJS
If you flop two to an inside straight draw, say you have 10,9s and the flop is J72 rainbow. What is the best Play? I think that I have about a 23.25 chance of making the straight by the river. Therefore, the pot needs to be about 5 times the amount it would take to bet or call.
Is this anywhere close to being correct.
Also ....What would you do if your are the first to act or if someone has already bet.
thank for any help./van
Well, you have 11:1 odds of making the straight on the turn, so there has to be at least 11 small bets in the pot for you to have the correct odds to call a bet. If first to act, I would check...You would greatly appreciate a free card. If there is a bet in front of you, the size of the pot should make the decision for you. Also, if you feel that there may be excessive action after you call, strongly consider folding. Use the same method on the river if your card doesn't hit on the turn. Also, you may want to consider your implied odds if you do make your straight.
I've learned this the hard way : you will continually pay off solid players if you chase gutshots without the proper pot odds.
----Jeff
I definitely agree with this analysis. MAYBE, altho tougher in low limit, you should raise the flop to draw a free card. Altho I do agree that often folding is the best strategy-especially if you get two suited cards on the flop.
Thanks for the help Jeff. So I was way off on calculating the odds. It should have been 47/4=11.75 to 1 on the turn and 46/4=11.5 to 1 on the river. Is that right? I always new it was usually a bad bet to go for an inside straight, but your help makes if very clear. Its probably very rare that there are 11 bets in the pot at that time. thanks./van
Yeah Van, your calculations are right now. And if you're gonna draw to a gutshot, you want a big pot to be there. (And boy does it feel good when you hit it!)
Glad I could help ya!!
----Jeff
"So I was way off on calculating the odds. It should have been 47/4=11.75 to 1 on the turn and 46/4=11.5 to 1 on the river. Is that right?"
Sort of. This is picky so I apologize but.... 4 outs in 47 unseen cards is a 1 in 11.75 chance to draw your straight on the turn. However, 43 unseen cards do not make your straight and 4 do, which means you need 10.75 to 1 in pot odds to call. If there are more than 10.75 bets in the pot before you call, you are correct to call.
Again, this is not the correct analysis, because it only takes into account what is in the pot at the time of the call. This is only one factor in the equation.
Actually Van, it's not a matter of whether you are getting the correct odds "right now". You have to analyze the situation with a view to whether you will be paid off correctly by the end of the hand. It often is right to draw for a gutshot straight on the flop without 11 bets in the pot because you will almost surely get paid off later in the hand. So you have to pay attention to things like how many players will likely chase to the river, how many players will call on the turn and river, the chances of getting in a raise or a 3 bet on the turn or the river, and the chances of a redraw coming back and beating you. You also have to figure in the additional money you will have to put in to get to the river. It's not quite as simple as it appears.
If you folded every gutshot straight draw just because there wasn't 11 bets in the pot you would be giving up a lot of profit in the long run.
Every situation is different, and you would have to fill us in on exactly how the hand was played before the flop on on the flop so far. But in many situations, you should bet out.
You are somewhat mistaken about the odds you need to draw here. You have to consider EFFECTIVE odds, not current pot odds. If you have a whatever% chance of making your draw BY THE RIVER, that by definition implies that you are going to call a bet on the turn. You must consider this bet when you compare the size of the pot to your cost of playing on. If you are drawing at a hand that is 5:1 to make it by the river, the final pot size must be five times bigger than all the money you put in on both the flop and the turn, not just the flop.
As far as your inside straight draw, if you want to peel one off on the flop, but fold the turn if you miss, you need to use 10.5:1 as your required odds to draw (this can include implied odds).
As Mason stated, there are more possibilities as to the correct play of your hand here, depending on your position, opponents, and action thusfar in the hand.
Stealing the blinds seems like losing money with a big hand like KK or AA.
Is it correct to limp in with these hands sometimes? On the button? Other positions?
You probably make more money by raising on the button with these hands as players are more likely to play back at you assuming you are stealing.
It may also increase your blind stealing success later in the game if you earlier showed a big hand when you raised on the button.
it's a catch 22. if you regularly steal then a limp will look suspicious to a strong player. Abdul has advocated open-raising with a large # of strong hands at loose weak tables and often limping with AA and KK in late position in order to avoid stealing the blinds. I guess it depends on just how observant/stubborn the blinds are.
Abdul never advocated limping with AA and KK in late position.
Interesting though, just recently we were discussing developing a open-limping balanced strategy which would allow slowplaying big pairs preflop in late position. It's not an easy task, mind you, it's a nasty can of worms and I'm not even sure if I like the idea.
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
Ljubljana, Slovenia
http://www.fekali.com/angelina
"You don't know Ange. She raises you, you stay raised." - Piesang
From Abdul's website, www.posev.com:
"When opening in tight games in any position or loose games in late position, your attention should be on getting heads up with a blind or outright stealing the blinds. Most hands are worth less than the blinds and so for most hands stealing the blinds is a coup; hence, raising is correct for most hands. AA is worth about four times the blinds if it gets some action, so stealing the blinds with it and your other very strong hands is a major disaster. Without other concerns, in a tight game you should raise with marginal hands, and limp (and usually reraise if raised) with your strongest hands."
Below this is a chart which includes AA and KK in the limp-reraise catagory.
It seems reasonable that somebody could conclude, rightly or wrongly, that Abdul advocates open limping in late position with AA and KK. The text does not explicitly say otherwise and could be interpreted as advocating it. Why do I feel like Mark Glover?
Regards.
The key is the statement "without other concerns". Throughout the essay Abdul has the constant theme of balancing opening hands. In isolation often open-limping on the button with AA/KK would be best, but we simply can't do that in context.
See Terrence's answer. See also the example from Abdul's page (and I'll try to quote by rote, just to show off how familiar I am with this essay):
Example: You're opening in (late) middle position, 3 off the button. How do you play your hand?
QQ Raise. No one is likely to raise for you. Provide cover for steals.
Please note that Abdul uses QQ to describe a *group* of big pairs here, including AA and KK (as noted elsewhere on his page). His open-limp-reraising advice applies to early position play in tight (tough) games only. As I said, he might start working on a way to balance hands late to allow limping with AA. Note that S&M recommend limping late with certain hands (for the wrong reasons, I believe); when the BB is loose, they have you limping with some weaker hands (A4o, QJo) because there's no chance to steal the blinds from a loose cannon any you're better off (so they say) investing as little as possible before seeing the flop.
I might start limping with QJo late too in the future, but for a different reason: to provide cover for AA and KK. I don't like the idea yet, there's probably not much profit to be had here, so why bother?
You are not Mark Glover. You are a reminder of my kinky ex-boyfriend ;)
Angelina Fekali
Studying People Inc.
http://www.fekali.com/angelina
Slovenia
Terrence and Angelina,
There really isn't much to debate here. I wasn't trying to argue in favor of limping with aces and kings. My post was suggesting that spitball could reasonably interpret Abdul's essay that way. But I appreciate the impassioned responses.
Angelina, two things strike me about the "late limp" balancing strategy. First, I agree there doesn't seem to be much profit in it. Second, I think there are a few tactical situations that arise that would lend towards limping in with big pairs, but using it outside those situations might be counterproductive to the entire preflop stragegy. I guess that's why it is "a can of worms".
Unfortunately, preflop doesn't get me going much anymore.
Regards, fellow students of the game.
for the record, that is the passage I was thinking of when I made the above post. re-reading it I see that I should not have used the word "often". if it turns out Abdul doesn't advocate sometimes open-limping with group one hands in late position I will. Yes, open-raising is the normal and most effective course of action, something I think we all agree on. depending on the playing characteristics of the blinds, I think we can imagine times when limping with AA and KK makes more money than raising.
I think you should steal with KK and AA just because the blinds expect you to. They might play back at you since they believe it's just another steal raise.
Rahul
Ideally, you'd like to limp since these hands are worth much more than the blinds. The problem is, you need to provide cover for your other steals as well.
I think it depends on the blinds and what their impression of you is. If they believe you often steal, they will be more inclined to play or even raise you back, which is the best case scenario! On the other hand, if they are very tight or feel you are, then you'd like to find a way to limp.
This is kind of funny... I one time limped on the button with KK in a very tight/tough $20-$40 game. After the sb folded, the bb just looked at me and threw his hand away before the flop!!! Everyone at the table cracked up.
similar story; I limped UTG, folded around to the BB, who paused for ten seconds, and threw his hand away.
Marcus,
Determine what you are going to do before you get such hands if 4 people are already in limp. If less than 4 raise or whatever your number is stick to it. Unless a tight person raises decide if your going to reraise or just call and trap him if you hit. It doesn't really matter how you play these hands just accept the result if you raise or limp. If everyone folds to you on the button I would raise, but that don't happen in most games I play in at this level. Just have a plan so you don't have to think too much when you do get these hands once in a while.
Paul
Planet Poker, $1/$2 Our hero gets 6h3h in small blind. Six callers, including our hero. Flop: 8h,2h,10h. Hero bets. Two callers. Decent middle player raises. One cold caller. Hero raises. One player folds. Another cold calls. Middle players caps. Four callers. Turn: 8s. Hero bets. Everyone calls. River: 3s. Hero checks. Next player bets. middle player calls. Final player folds. Hero calls. Middle player turns over 9h5h. Other player turns over kdks. When should I have folded?
First let me warn you that I don't have a lot of experience at low limits. So this may be wrong.
But generally you can fold when the middle player, who you described as "good" called the river. After there had been this much action on a flushed and paired board, it's hard to overcall a decent player here. The problem might be in classifying what constitutes a decent player at a $1-$2 limit. If you feel you can beat the odds on a two shot parlay of 1). The first player being poor enough to bet, and 2). Another player being poor enough to call, both having hands that can't beat a 6 high flush, then of course you should over-call.
I thought about folding when this player capped the betting before the flop.
It seemed to me that when I three-bet, he must have known I had a flush, and I put him on a much higher flush.
I had that sinking feeling, but decided I really had to go to the river to make sure he wasn't overbetting two pair or trips.
What do I mean by a good low limit player? Someone who plays tight, seems to understand the rules and has some idea of pot odds and strategy.
"What do I mean by a good low limit player? Someone who plays tight, seems to understand the rules and has some idea of pot odds and strategy."
Then this is the type of player that over-calling on the river, will be a losing proposition more times than not.
Thanks for your replies.
I agree I should have folded on the river.
What about on the flop. When he capped the pot?
Don't I have to know he's got me beat then?
Just wondering if that wouldn't normally be a good laydown.
Perhaps. But it doesn't have to be a winning proposition very often for calling to be a correct play. And, as JV pointed out later down in this thread, nobody ever got rich laying down made hands in 14+ BB pots.
I think the key here is that curious was helping to drive the action. If he'd checked the flop, then found it three bets back to him, well.. at that point you can consider mucking. But with only one other player raising you're often stuck, since it's highly plausible that he has any number of hands which you have beat. When you factor in the typical LL player's irrational propensity for slowplaying made hands, even when the situation clearly doesn't warrant it, I think a call on the river becomes even clearer.
For what it's worth I probably would have waited for the turn to start showing any significant strength, if only because I hate dropping in a ton of money on the flop here only to see another heart drop on the turn. Plus, be check-raising or lead betting the turn you have a better chance of getting someone with, say, a medium heart to drop, since they may now fear a slowplayed monster (which, in a sense, is true) and won't feel as pot stuck.
Isn't it necesary to bet on flop to try to force someone with a single high heart to fold?
GD-
I agree no one ever got rich folding big pots, but I challenge you to name more than a handfull of people who have built their retirement funds by over-calling good players.
Very good players who have exceptional hand reading abilities might actually be a different story. Since they are capable of calling with a 2nd best hand KNOWING this might prevent you from calling with a best hand. But this is rare situation indeed and should far exceed the thought processes of typcial $1-$2 game.
I was lazy in my wording. I should have said losing proposition over the long run. I stand by that assessment for this hand.
I would play a set this hard, top two, and maybe Ah-10s. Folding on the river to one bet on the river is a really really bad. I be more inclined to raise the river for value, but I am sure we play against different types of players, so maybe you know something i don't about these guys. But why would you call to the river and fold there. If you make these type of folds on the river, I believe you cannot be a winning player.
It sounds like I am saying you are not a winning player. I didn't mean that, I meant if you make these kind of "catastrophic laydowns" a player in general no matter how good, will not be able to come back for the EV loss.
I am a winning player, in low limit online games and in the casino, where I think the players are often even worse.
I have slowly piled up a small stake playing in these games, but I don't always know when to lay down when I'm beat.
I've got a copy of HEFAP on its way to me in the mail, so maybe it will help me with this, but it seems to me the line between a good laydown and risking a "mathematical catastrophe" is pretty thin.
Every time I lose a hand on which I've bet heavily, I think: I should have folded, I should play tighter.
Perhaps part of being a good poker player is learning to accept that you can't always avoid sucking out.
GD-
I agree no one ever got rich folding big pots, but I challenge you to name more than a handfull of people who have built their retirement funds by over-calling good players.
Very good players who have exceptional hand reading abilities might actually be a different story. Since they are capable of calling with a 2nd best hand KNOWING this might prevent you from calling with a best hand. But this is rare situation indeed and should far exceed the thought processes of typcial $1-$2 game.
I was lazy in my wording. I should have said losing proposition over the long run. I stand by that assessment for this hand.
.
You should not have called preflop, even in SB, with 63s. MHO, that was your problem.
Will be in Vegas late July. Please help with suggestions for good off strip low limit. I will be staying at the San Remo but spend most of my time away from the strip.
The places I have played that are low limit:
Palace station: 2-4 and 1-4-8-8 Excalibur: 2-6 mandalay bay: 4-8 with 1/2 kill (last time I checked) Mirage: 3-6, 6-12 Luxor: 1-4-8-8 Bellagio: 4-8, 8-16
other places with poker:
Orleans monte carlo
this list is by no means comprehensive. I like the excalibur and luxor most, and I also like the mirage and palace station. Mandalay bay has a beautiful poker room, but the rake is too high on their stud games for me to be willing to play it, and I generally haven't liked the lineups I have seen in their holdem games, so I usually have played elsewhere. (in general the rake on all stud games in vegas is higher than I am willing to pay, I will just play holdem). Bellagio has the most comfortable chairs I have ever seen in any poker room anywhere! I was only moderately impressed with the action there though.
Looking for any ideas how this hand might have been played better, or differently.
3-6 Hold'em
I found myself heads-up with an early position raiser who:
a) sat down 15 minutes ago, was friends with the most loose-aggressive player at the table, and had been waiting 2 hrs for a seat.
b) raised earlier with Q9
c) ended up busting out for about $200 in 30 minutes
All I knew at the time of this hand was a) and b) above. I never seen the guy before, not even nowhere.
I had QQ in the Big Blind. Guy was one to the left of UTG and raised, presumably with AK. Everyone folded to me so I reraised, he called.
FLOP: JJJ
I checked, he bet, I raised, he folded.
I believe that:
1) AK would be an automatic raise for this fellow, regardless of position, game conditions, players in the pot, etc. This is the hand I would have put him on if I had to.
2) This guy would also raise from early position with AQ or AJ.
3) He MAY have been doing some kind of "advertising" earlier by raising pre-flop with a trash hand, but I doubt it.
So:
I put him on AK, and I raised pre-flop is because I figured to be the favorite in the hand.
I would welcome comments on any of this, particularly the check-raise on the flop. I really didn't feel like I had that much to win (i.e. win a few chips or lose a lot), and any overcard (except a Q) I figured to be trouble. I beleived a check-raise to be in order to possibly take control of the hand, get more money in there if I was in fact the favorite, and see what kind of information I could get from the Guy.
This one has been bothering me for a while... 3/6 full table, the game is fairly loose and passive but nothing like the crazy 3/6 I hear you guys talking about, more like a 5/10 table I guess. I don't know the players, but nobody has done anything too weird... until this hand. I pick up AcAd one off UTG, UTG limps, I raise, the player to my immediate left threebets. Someone cold calls 3 in mid position, the blinds muck, UTG calls and I cap it. As the BB mucks he accidentally flashes his hand and reveals the As. I'm not sure if anybody else spots this. 4 players see the flop, 8.75 BB in the pot.
Flop: Qh Qs 4d
UTG bets out, I raise and both the players ahead of me cold call two. UTG calls. 4 players, 12.75 BB in the pot.
Turn: Qh Qs 4d Th
I bet and the preflop raiser raises. The next player again cold calls 2. UTG mucks, my action. Now what? The pot is currently laying me almost 19-to-1, but one of my aces is dead so I'm drawing at 46-to-1 for my out if anyone has a queen or a full. AQ, KQ and TT (and QQ, but thats unlikely) are all plausible hands for the threebetter, and AQ and QQ have me drawing dead. There's also the matter of the player who cold called three and then two and then two again. I'm having a lot of trouble putting him on anything... maybe JJ? When he cold called two on the flop I was expecting him to raise gleefully on the turn with a Q, so maybe he has a weak Q and got scared by the other guy. I figure I'm beaten and drawing very slim, so I muck.
River comes a blank and I put my head in my hands as both players check. Preflop threebetter reveals AhKh (argh) and the other player reveals 55 (DEAR LORD) to win the pot. I wasn't annoyed so much by mucking the winner as by the fact that 55 won such a huge pot by playing so awfully. It's very irritating when the play of a certain player knocks you off your hand, but he doesn't win the pot, instead shipping it to someone else who stuck around for god knows what reason. There should be a name for this, maybe "Reverse Bankshot", for those of you familiar with Abdul's Bankshot concept.
Any way I could have won this pot, or is this just poker? Anyone of the opinion I should have called down? The game was pretty passive, as I mentioned, so I was expecting someone to have a hand here.
All responses welcome
Chris
"UTG bets out, I raise and both the players ahead of me cold call two. UTG calls. 4 players, 12.75 BB in the pot."
I don't see any benefit in this raise. If UTG has a queen (or a pair of fours) you will be sorry you raised, or if one of the players behind you has a queen you will be sorry. Otherwise, why knock out someone when at most they can have is two outs.
My opinion is that if you don't raise on the flop, and just check call the rest of the way, you wouldn't have folded since you would have encouraged weaker hands to bet.
I would tend to agree with your flop assessment, although it's worth pointing out that if the A's just call here they're giving any pocket pair (and a pocket pair seems fairly likely here, given the frisky pre-flop action) about 19-1 to hit their house. Plus, by raising you could get inoridinate action from anything from TT to KK.
I think you played fine, even though you happened to muck the winner this time. Most of the time you will be beat here, and you correctly folded based on your perception of having one out at best. If you don't occasionally muck a winner, you are probably a calling station. When people do stupid things that cost me money, it pisses me off a little, but I know they will pay it all back with interest....
Dave in Cali
I had a hand recently at 4/8 at the Bellagio that I think I played really horribly, but was wondering what the best course of action would have been. I was in the SB with pocket queens. There were 5 or 6 callers, I raise, everyone calls. Flop is 388. I bet out, the BB calls, button calls. Turn is 8. I bet, BB raises, button re-raises. I call (this was probably a huge mistake?), I call two bets cold, BB calls. River 3. I check, BB checks, button bets, I call, BB calls. Button turns over T8o for the quads, I muck, BB shows pocket jacks. I was fairly new into the game so I wasn't familiar with the button or SB players, so I couldn't put either of them on the case 8. How would you have played this differently? I've only been playing poker a year or so, so some constructive criticism would be nice. Thanks.
I think you have to pay it off. I've seen so many things at those bellagio 4-8.. but then again I probably pay too many hands off =)
Mark -
Well, of course, it's tough to say how to play the hand without actually being there. I don't know how others feel about raising out of the small blind with Queens, but I'm not a huge fan of it. With this many people, a raise with this position will get nobody out (very unlikely to even get the BB to fold with a pot built up to this point). Any over cards and you hand is nearly dead, and with this many people in the pot, it is nearly impossible to get a flop that does not contain overcards, cards clumped together (i.e. straight), or a paired board. If 7 people are going to see the flop, I'd only raise out of the small blind with Aces or Kings.
But you raised. This is obviously not a horrible move since you almost definitely have the best hand before the flop. The flop isn't horrible, but it's not great either...with 7 people seeing the flop, it's likely that one of them has an eight. I'd bet the flop, and with two callers, I'd be concerned. One almost definitely has a pocket pair, but with a 388 flop, there are not draws out there, so there is a decent chance of a player having an 8. When the 3rd 8 appears on the turn, I'd have mixed feelings. I wouldn't fold, but I'm not sure that I'd bet out. . . I'd just check and call on the turn and river.
Not much you can do. . .
Worm
It's simple. When the turn gets three bet, you are beat. Fold. You aren't going to be ahead here very often. Actually, I have never seen the turn go to three bets when there was three of a kind on the board and seen a full house win. And you called those bets cold. What were you planning on doing on the river? You have to consider how many more bets it will cost you to see the showdown, and you have to decide this ON THE TURN WHEN YOU HAVE TO CALL THREE BETS. Wait and fight another day, pick a better spot to make a stand.
Dave in Cali
I don't have too much to add to what others have already posted...
I am thinking about the hands with which I would call your turn bet (board: 388-8). Because you raised pre-flop, I'd be concerned you have a high pair in the hole -- I'd be less inclined to call with JJ or TT. I would probably call only with AA-QQ, unless I could specifically put you on AK (somehow). However, if you had checked the turn, you might get someone with JJ or TT to bluff you on the river. It looks to me like your pre-flop helps make it so that only worse hands call your turn bet. (What was the guy with JJ doing? I dunno.)
I have read also that if you see two eights (or whatever) on the flop and you don't have one, there's a 40% chance nobody was dealt an eight. Thus, when you bet out on the flop, there was a reasonable chance you had the best hand. Regardless of the turn card, I would not have bet out here. I wouldn't want to risk being raised on the expensive rounds with a scary board like this -- provided I wasn't also worried about straight/flush draws.
I would also point out that I am surprised that the button slowplayed T8o on the flop. There is also a reasonable chance with the flop you had that someone else was holding the case 8 and had him out-kicked. I would have raised on the flop to get more money in if the case 8 wasn't in anyone's hand, and to try to find out where I stood if it was. If I was the button, I would like to know which players at the table would play a hand like A8o at this juncture.
Mark--
I would consider your play to be representative of a loser with deep homosexual tendencies.
I have no idea what you were thinking paying as much for that hand as you did, and I found it hillarious to note the level of your smack talking drop dramatically after you had such a large dick stuffed in your ear.
Sincerely, mamasuga
Jh, 9s two off the button
EP, me, Button, and BB call [fold pre-flop?]
Flop [ 8h Jd 6s]
EP bets, I raise to make it heads up( good play?) Button folds, BB folds
Turn [ 8h Jd 6s 5d ]
EP checks, I bet (probably should have checked, dumb play?)
River [ 8h Jd 6s 5d 9c ]
EP checks, I check
He shows Jc Ks, I take it with 2 pair……..I need some constructive criticism.
Yes..you have a clear fold preflop IMO.
Flop play is good, and I would also bet the turn, and check the river if a blank hits. On the river you make two pair and I think you have to bet, since it isnt too likely he has a seven, and there are plenty of worse hands who will pay you off.
Your biggest mistake was calling preflop IMO.
Regards
My two cents:
That is a VERY bad call pre-flop. I wouldn't even call with JTo and I might fold QJo if the people behind me might raise. I think J9o is a garbage hand unless you are really late and there are a whole bunch of callers (and if this is the case you are looking for a straight draw or better on the flop, not top pair).
Once you are in you have to raise the flop. When he doesn't play back there is an ok chance you have the best hand. Unless you are planning to fold to a single bet on the river you HAVE to bet the turn yourself. If he raises you can fold, if he bets the river you can fold. But by checking the turn he might bluff the river and you'll be stuck calling. I personally would then check the river because I doubt a worse hand would call you on the river (and you won't get a better one to fold).
You doubt a worse hand would call you on the river? In this limit, believe me, any jack will call and even and eight or nine will call now and then (if the player is really bad)
Regards
I didn't see he made two pair. I read top pair bad kicker and that was stuck in my head. Of course betting top two pair on the river is obvious.
sam
Pre-flop call is a mistake. J9o is a bad poker hand, and should only be played in late position with many callers for one bet, if at all. You are not losing much by never ever playing this hand. Its trouble and you found out why (even though you were bailed out in this case).
I like the flop raise.
Play the player on the turn. If you think they are drawing, bet. If they will call a bet with a worse Jack, or a smaller pair, then bet. If they will call with a big Jack, or might slowplay a much better hand, then check.
I think you have a value betting opportunity on the river. I don't imagine any hand that has a seven that is consistent with your opponents betting, except for 77. I think your two pair is good, and he has indicated he wants a showdown. I would bet it.
KJS
3-6 online game, I am dealt AQcc utg.
I raise, an overaggressive player in middle position 3 bets, and an unknown player in late position caps..
I look down and Muck My hand.
was this fold correct....assuming on of the 2 had either QQ, KK or AA...did I have enough odds for a straight or flush to see the flop? (these 2 guys were the only 2 others in)
Results to follow :)
The 3 bettor had ATdd
The Capper had QQ.
The board of course was KcJc3sTcAh...
Giving the 3 bettor 2 pair (which he hung around long enough to show down)
The capper a straight...
And me my very first losing royal flush :(
hence the "goddammit" ...
ah.. Someone was there :)
Don't you think hands like these online are suspicious?It is clearly an example of promoting action. Too bad you don't have the program that lets you know what the cards are going to be. You can order it, you know.
You don't answer the #1 question: did you feel lucky?
Seriously: If you are on the button and have to call 4 bets cold, thats one thing. If you already have two bets in, you are getting (assuming these other two are the only ones in the hand) approximately 11-1 on your call. I believe you have to call here, given those odds. Think of it this way: say you have A4s on the button and its a family pot. Do you call one bet? Of course! Are you going to get excited if you flop an ace? Not really. You are looking for a flush, a bicycle, or two pair. The odds are the same here.
Admittedly I peeked at the results, but still 11-1 is a pretty good price for AQs.
5.5-1, not 11-1.
Still, I think a good call
Don't forget AK.
Against normal opponents, it's an automatic fold, as you'll end up paying almost a third of what you can win (even though you're looking at almost 6-1 immediately) as a 3-1 dog and possibly much worse. So if assmptions are correct I'd say a fold was correct. The problem is that it's a big "if." Note that you'd love to have this hand against 2 maniacs.
You can't tag a player as "overaggressive" and then assign some high probability of him having AA-QQ when he tries to isolate. Nor can you assume that the capper hasn't noticed the same thing you have or that he wouldn't be willing to re-isolate with a wide range of hands.
If either of my opponents was close to the bottom of his stack I'd probably call and otherwise fold, but it's closer than usual.
I believe your fold was not correct.
You had to call $6 into a pot that would be $34 with the 3-bettor's call of the 4th bet. AQs is easily worth the 5+ to 1 odds you are getting.
I recognize you as a player who won't raise UTG without a premium holding. If I 3-bet you or cap it you would know that I've a very strong hand (you don't know who I am at PP but I know by the way you play me that you recognize my nickname and that I am a relatively tight player). Likewise, if I'm UTG raising with AQs and you come over the top of me, I know I'm likely trailing. So, I'm assuming you gave the unknown player credit for following the action closely enough to know that your UTG raise indicated a big hand and not a "move" as seems to happen far too often in the small games, that is, you figured he knew he was up against at least one big hand and still wanted you in for two more bets - he wasn't trying to get you to fold in other words. So you dissapointed him by folding.
I've only once raised UTG and folded to a cap. I had JJ, over-aggressive in mid 3-bet, very tight capped in the cut-off. Over-aggressive's unimproved 77 beat the tight player's AKs. I felt very silly afterwards as I had enough implied odds to call even if I'd been behind. Similarly, I think you had enough implied odds to chase with AQs. Ironically, had you just called UTG and folded to a three-bet I think that would have been fine. Does that make sense? spitball
Wardy,
I haven't looked. But I played in a 3-6 online the other day with 3 semi-maniacs, and I won a ton of $$ by taking a few chances with hands like this which I knew would be 3 or 4 bet pre-flop. I would have called; the overagressive guy -- he probably had 77 or 88 and the capper dude probably had ATo.
My comment is especially true if the potsize avberage is big and the number of pre-flop is 45% or higher.
Mark
2:11? I'd call, and promise myself I'm only going to lose 2 or 3 small bets if a lone ace drops. The implied odds for the big hands here are juicy neouhg to make me see the flop.
I'm not all that confident, though, and lok forward to the other responses. If "over-agressive" and "new-player" were replaced with "tight-aggressive" and "solid" , I think my tune would change.
Best,
zooey
Why are all these online hands posted here? Online poker is very different from liive poker. These hands should be on the other forum.
i think you have to consider your opponets. if you flop a big hand are they capable of releasing their hands? overaggresive probably is not and unknow probaly is not because most 3-6 PP players are not (especialy since he probably has a large pocket pair - a hand many weak players have a hard time mucking). with this in mind, i would see the flop and if it doesn't hit me hard i would be done with it.
rama jama
Two tighgt players and I think its a fold.
3/6, an overaggresive player followed by a unknown player and 5 to 1 odds, and I'll call and tread very cearfuly post flop.
You are getting 11.33 to 2 for your call assuming the 3 bettor calls the cap.
I am not laying that hand down in a Paradise 3-6 game - especially if you don't know the capper and the 3 bettor is overly aggressive. I have seen people cap pots at LL Paradise with all kinds of crap.
I vote to take the flop and see what happens - you might even have the best hand pre-flop. Another way of looking at the situation is to discount the overly aggressive players raise. If his play is invisable, you have to call a raise from the capper. Would you call one more bet with AQs if you raised and got reraised from a stranger? I would but hey, I'm a moron!!
Now let's look at the results and see what happened.
Yo Wardy,
Long time no see ! put a real email addr in dude :P
I would have called (rather than fold) :) You raised with a hand, not a bluff. Kinda looks silly to fold just cause they raise you back :)
come around on planet poker and say hi sometime. I'm mainly on the free holdem tables there. (weekends), until this london work thingy finishes.
--Kev (Cheng)
Low limit PP. Had JJ preflop, raised get one caller.
Flop: A 3 4 rainbow
I bet out, get raised. I call
Turn 9
He bets and what do you do now?
tx
Mike
.
On the flop, you may want to consider giving it up right then since you are playing two outs when he has an ace. You raised preflop and an ace-high flop will touch many hands you could have raised with. When your opponent pops you on the flop you may want to give it up right then unless you have reason to think he is semi-bluffing some kind of draw.
On the turn, did you check and then he bet? I am assuming that you did. You should definitely fold at that point against most opponents.
He cold called you preflop?
I think you have to fold when he raised you on the flop, because especially when he cold called you, he probably couldnt raise you with a draw. So the only option is that he has an ace, or is a (very) tricky player (he might bluff raise you with a medium pocket pair here, if he's tricky). Since you dont know him, I would assume he's a not so tricky player (I think the majority of PP low limit players are passive and non-tricky), and figure him for an ace. Fold to the raise.
Regards
I muck everytime in a pot this small. Think about it: you're going to get just better than even money IF a) he doesn't have an A, AND b) doesn't otherwise catch up. If the pot's bigger, well, then it's probably time to 'play poker' (which, incidentally, may also mean mucking). But in a 7 sb pot? I'm done with it.
Mike, if you're having trouble playing pocket pairs when a single overcard flops and you've raised pre-flop here are a couple good rules for you that are rarely incorrect at limits under 10-20.
If, on the flop, there's an overcard to your p.pair and you've raised before the flop, you should lead bet if it's checked to you. If you are raised here, muck. If you are bet into, again muck. If you are called in more than one place, you should check the turn and fold if there's a bet. If it's heads-up on the turn you should bet one more time and be prepared to check down the river.
Hope this helps,
Guy
(n/t)
Is caller in a blind? If so, you may be facing A3, A4, Ax (where x is anything), in addition to other bad things..or a good tricky player, trying to bluff you.
Another alternative is to check this bad flop, if he checks, great, you bet the turn. You risk the bad free turn card (K or Q) here anyway. If he bets the flop, you checkraise. If he has a real hand, he will re-raise and you can safely throw it away. If he just calls, you likely get a free turn. If he bets the turn again, you are lost against most, and can safely give it up.
One more thing: His raising is a poor play if he has a monster like a set or a str8; he would want to raise the turn, or even the river. But he is raising on something, in a PP game, he likely has Ax. The checkraise play has the effect in this case of scaring him into a free turn for you at the same cost as this and you get to see the turn and the river.
The way this was played against the avg. Paradise player, I would fold the turn.
Mark
.
I had a good night playing 5-10 at the Taj (plus $417 in about 5 hours), but got big slick cracked 3 times. Did I ever overplay my hand?
1) I've got AKo UTG and put in a raise. MP player (aggressive woman who loves to raise and reraise before the flop with marginal hands) makes it 3 bets. Everyone folds back to me and I cap it. The flop comes K-7-2 rainbow. I bet out immediately, she raises, I make it $15 and she caps it. Now I'm concerned as I call, planning to check and call the rest of the way. Turn brings a 4 (2nd club)); I check and call her bet. River is an Ace (third club). I love this card and check-raise. She glares at me and calls. I turn over Aces up, and she slowrolls me, waiting till the dealer is about to push the pot before saying she had trip 7's. 2) I have AKo on the button and open for a raise. The big blind (a tricky player after the flop but a loose one before) calls. Flop comes K-3-8, two clubs. He bets, I raise, he calls. Turn is a 3rd club, he check raises me. I have the king of clubs for the redraw and call. He bets into me on the river (a low non-club) and I pay off his J-8 flush). 3) Against the same player as in hand number 2, I raise in the cut-off. Same player calls out of the big blind, as well as one other. Flop comes K-7-10. He bets, I raise, he calls. Turn comes another 7. He checks, I bet, he calls. River is a 9, he check raises me. I call to be shown K9o.
Thanks for all comments, these were only a few bad hands in a great, great night.
Jeff
Hand #1 - I don't understand why you "loved" the ace on the river. Did you think she had K7?
Hands #2 and #3 - There's not much you can do about these hands. You were destined to lose. The real question is could you have saved some $$ by not paying them off? Against some players the answer is yes. Others, you just got to grit your teeth and call. This can only come from watching your opponents very carefully when you're not in the hand and learning how they play and what they think. Better luck on your next few big slicks.
Kevin
#1 - i don't like to make two pair if it brings a third suited card against a loose opponent who will always chase a draw (even heads-up). therefore, i would have check behind him on the river.
#2 - when you raise a player on the flop and he calls you have to give him credit for some kind of draw. most likely he was betting a draw (trying to pick up the pot there) and was raised. when a card falls on the turn that could have easily hit him (a flush card or maybe a 9 or 7 giving him two pair, b/c week player will often play any two connected cards suited or not), then i have to check behind him even if i have top pair with top kicker. now if he checks on the river then i am going to bet, b/c if he was planning to check-raise on the turn and was unable to he will bet on the river. either way if he bets on the river i will call him, b/c he might have top pair with a weaker kicker that he now thinks is good b/c i checked behind him on the turn (this is another example of why position is so important in hold'em!!)
#3 again, when a player calls your raise on the flop you have to give him credit for something. he may be behind but probably has some outs. here a 9 on the river is a card i have to check behind not b/c of K9o, but b/c of T9. it is likely that your opponent would semi-bluff the flop with middle pair and then call your raise (b/c he is week and goes to far with his hands). now when a card next to middle pair falls on the river (in this case J or 9) beware of the check raise.
IMO, rama jama
rama jama,
Hand 3: The 9 is not dangerous if your opponent has T9, since he would have TT99K and you would have KK779.
Mojay
The first hand, the Ace doesn't change a thing. If you behind before this card, you are still behind. If she had Aces, the ace helped her more than you and a set is still ahead of you. You should check call the river as well.
The second hand I can see you maybe paying off considering that you may not know the player yet, but on the third hand, you should have saved one big bet. Considering how this player played the first hand, you should have mucked to the check raise on the river. These are the laydowns that good players make to win the money in low limit. There are very, very few players that play low limit that are capable of a check-raise bluff on the river. If they check raise on an expensive street, the can beat top pair, period.
Peace
Goodie
Jeff,
A kind suggestion for future postings would be to make them more friendly to read. Use > and/or spaces between lines.
Only have time to comment on the first hand.
You wrote: "MP player (aggressive woman who loves to raise and reraise before the flop with marginal hands) makes it 3 bets".
You failed to mention if she continues her aggressiveness if she misses the flop.
You said you were worried when she capped the flop. In that case at the very worst I would put her on AK or maybe KQ but I doubt KQ. When you showed weakness on the turn by not leading and just calling, you're pretty much telling her you don't have KK. I don't think I would have liked it too much when the ace (along with the 3rd club) fell on the end. At this point the pot is too big to fold on the river. I would have stuck with check-calling.
In previous hands after this type of aggressiveness, has she showed hands of anything less than top pair with top kicker? If so check-calling would have been your best play if not folding her flop raise.
Hope this helps...
Gene
the're not bad hands... it's all one long poker game, and sometimes, more then we would like, the winds of chance blow the other way. The people you talk about in your posting are your bread and butter. All things considered you played the hands fine. Remember--if you make a good bet and loose, it's still a good bet.
After reading your post, I caught a flight up to AC, walked into the Taj, borrowed a stick from the craps table, and proceded to beat her senseless. I don't think she'll be slow rolling you for awhile.
miss read the post...sorry =)
Please critique this play; I need it.
I'm on the button; all fold to the kill who is one off the cut-off; he checks. (Note: the kill is probably weak here, since this is at Foxwoods where most players will automatically raise with any type of playable hand.) Cut-off, a fairly aggressive player, raises. I suspect he may be on a steal, so I call with A9o. Blinds fold and kill calls.
Flop: Axx. Kill checks, cut-off bets, I raise. Kill folds and CO calls.
Turn: Q (completes the rainbow). CO checks and I check.
River: Q CO bets and I call.
Thanks.
preflop: call is not an option. fold or raise to get the cutoff heads up. if you just call then you know the kill is going to come and maybe one or two of the blinds. now you have a hand that does not play well against 3-5 opponents. i would fold unless i was 50% sure i could get the cutoff heads-up, but i play a little tight (that's what i am comfortable with).
after the flop: i probably would have played it the same.
IMO, rama jama
Hello all...
I've been playing $3-6 hold em off and on for about 1 year now. Over the course of that time, I've read a bunch of books, the two I focus on the most being S+M's HPFAP and Lee Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold em.
A few questions: Can HPFAP be applied successfully to low limits? I get the feeling that some areas might not apply very well. What do you think?? Also, is Lee Jones' book reliable? I tend to be skeptical of any non-2+2 publications, but the book seems to make some good points.
Unfortunately, I'm pretty unimaginative right now in terms of play and I like to have a strategy before I sit down. That being said, I'd hate to implement a strategy that has losing qualities because of either of the two aforementioned books.
Thanks in advance for any help!!!!
----Jeff
i think HPFAP cannot be "applied directly" to any specific game (although the loose games section is probably the closest). each game has its own texture (the players make up the texture) and must be approached in a different manner. HPFAP is a MUST for any player that wants to win at hold'em, but it only provides the foundation of winning hold'em. after you have read (make that studied) HPFAP, then you need to do some serious thinking about how to approach the game you play regularly.
IMO, rama jama
YES.. Play straight forward.. follow preflop hands guide from their book--it would not hurt if you make it little tighter... in flop only call or raise with top pair with good kicker or big draw.. and you will do fine in 3/6.. no tricky play needed in that level.. I would move up to 5/10 or 10/20 ASAP if you want to make some ok money--still not better than getting a regular job though.. Playing poker for money is just plain rediculous.. even though I am a winning player so far..I feel moneywise poker is just not worth it yet..
HEPFAP was written for medium stakes ($10-20 to $30-60) and I believe S&M make this clear in a statement in the beginning somewhere. My suggestion to you would be to purchase S&M's HEP (Holdem Poker) which was written with the low limit player in mind to learn the basic fundamentals of the game. IMO, the main difference is that in the lower limits straight forward tight-aggressive play gets the money. Think of when you were a kid. Tricycle, bicycle w/training wheels; bicycle without training wheels; then we were doing wheelies. Many of the same principals will apply if/when you move up to medium stakes. Check it out and compare the two and you'll be on your way. Haven't read the other one so I can't comment one way or the other. Doyle Brunson's SS would be another one to have in your library. Good luck...
Gene
Hold'em Poker was written by David Sklansky alone, and it is geared towards a $10/20 game. It was written back when there was a single $5 blind, but the more recent editions are updated somewhat. I've only recently purchased the "21st Century" editions of HE4AP and 7CS4AP. I think that the "Loose Games" sections of both books are highly applicable to low-limit games. OK, I stink at hold'em, but I do pretty well at low-limit stud, and I know that the "Loose Games" section of 7CS4AP is highly applicable to my games. I'll probably put the "Loose Games" section of HE4AP to the test in a few hours....
You sound like you know what your talking about Andy, so I stand corrected. I do not own HEP, but I was told many years ago that HEP focused on lower limit basic strategy. I just assumed that Mason was a co-author.
That being the case, my thoughts otherwise haven't changed. That at the lower limits, straight forward tight-aggressive play is most desirable over the long haul.
I do know that HEPFAP is geared for medium stakes because it's been part of my poker library for many, many years.
Thanks for setting me straight.
Gene
> You sound like you know what your talking about Andy
I put on a good act. :^)
I took over a grand out of the $8/16 game last night, so the early returns indicate that the "Loose Games" section of HE4AP is applicable to loose, low-limit games. :^) BTW, I've had earlier editions of 7CS4AP and HE4AP in my library for years, but I put off buying the "21st Century" editions until a few weeks ago. This was a mistake. The new material is well worth the cover price.
Lee Jones book has some good advice, but don't consider it the bible on Holdem. HPFAP CAN be successfully applied to loose low limit games, but some of the fancier plays must be applied sparingly and with much discretion. The primary money maker in low limit games is solid play. HPFAP 21st century edition has a long section on loose games. It is unlikely that reading the two books you mentioned is going to give you a LOSING strategy. However, if you are looking for a single book that clearly and concisely details exactly how to play in all situations you will not find it, there are just too many possibilities for one book to cover them all. You have to learn how to apply the generalized advice found in the books to specific situations. Theory of poker would probably help you more than anything right now.
Dave in Cali
I've been playing for about a year too, but about twice a week. Here's some observations I've picked up:
If you read and understand the two books you mentioned, you'll be ahead of alot of low-limit players.
HPFAP is abit ahead of these games as well - you can leave most of your deception plays at home. Solid, straight-forward play will get the money.
Learn to count bets. It is the foundation of your decisions.
Learn your opponents, be able to categorize them (in general) once they've played a few hands. I've got a friend who always stresses the percentages. Know them, but how much help are they when you're bet into by button, you've got second pair with an overcard and two other players behind you? Is the button bluffing? Will the others fold to his bet? To your check-raise?
Know / establish your own table image. One nite I was getting lousy cards and hardly played a hand. Then with AA UTG, I raised and it folded around. About a half hour later, I tried it with 97s, worked again.
Watch this board for posts on strategy and stay away from the ones that go, "I'm the greatest player in the world, but I was beat by a bunch of fish in an online game on the following hand ..." Usually, if anyone points out a misplay, the great one responds, "But you don't know how horrible these guys were."
Good Luck (we tourists insist on calling it luck)
The discussion below about JJ on an ace high flop reminded me of a 4/8 hand I butchered a while back.
I was in a game with 2 extremely loose players. They played a lot of hands and bet or called any draw on the flop. If there was a runner-runner possibility, they were in there regardless of odds.
On my left was an older guy I had not played with much, but he seemed pretty rocky.
I was in the cutoff with JJ, the two loose players limp and I raise. Older tight guy on the button 3-bet. I did not think he would 3-bet with anything but AA or KK. The blinds fold and the limpers and I call.
The flop as A86 rainbow. Ugh, I don't like my hand.
The limpers check and I check, expecting the button to bet. He checks. Could be slowplaying AA or has KK and is afraid of an A.
Turn is a 2. First loose player bets, second one calls. These guys have been playing any Ace and one or both of them could have one and might have been checkraising the flop. However, they have shown tendencies to bet any hand. I sneak a peek at Rocky on the button and he had $8 poised to dump in the pot.
I didn't want to raise because one of the limpers might have an A. I didn't want to call because Rocky has not shown any sign of trickyness and it looks like he is going to pay off the loose players.
I fold. Rocky folds!!
AAAUUUGHGHGHGHGHGHGHG! I just knew what was gonna happen next.
The turn is a brick and the first loose guy turns over Q6 for one pair, no draw and the second one turns over K9 for no pair, no draw. Rocky had laid down KK.
I was amazed that Rocky folded and asked why he laid down against those two extremly loose players. He just said "There was an Ace on the flop. I don't care who is in the pot if an ace hits and someone bets, I fold." I remember thinking that his hard and fast rule is going to cost him more money in the future.
Looking back, I should definitely have raised on the turn. I didn't think Rocky would try to deceive me or anyone else by showing he would call when he intended on folding and he induced me to fold.
If I thought Rocky would fold, I would certainly have stayed in, but at the time, I wasn't completly sure he hadnt been slowplaying AA.
Although in hindsight I realized if he had AA, he would not have shown ANY indication of his action on the turn. The only hands he could have had were KK or QQ and he was definitely out if I raised or called.
The two other goofballs in the hand just played and bet too many hands to give them credit for having a weak Ace.
I misplayed my JJ badly against these particular opponents.
I think the moral of the story is that against quite a few opponents, you can not automatically muck a raised pocket pair when an A hits the flop. You can against Rocky, but not against everyone.
Dan, I think you're being too hard on yourself. When 4 players see the flop, there's a reasonable chance someone has an ace. Bad players are not restricted to hands containing 2nd pair; sometimes they get the nuts.
Your awareness at the table was good and you corectly deduced that you were beat badly. A raise wouldn't have been a bad play but I think a good portion of the time you will be shown an ace on the river.
Thanks Winger,
I thought about this hand a lot while driving home that night and was a bit frustrated with myself. Not because I folded, which is usually going to be the best move here, but because I had all the information I needed to raise on the turn and win a checkdown on the river.
It was a perfect spot to make the wrong move at the right time and I missed it. I ended up winning for the session, as it was a great game, but this hand haunted me.
Good anecdote Dan but if you continue to look for reasons to raise or call with hands that can easily be beat you are on your way to becoming a calling station. Sure you folded the winner here but more often than not you are laying down a 2nd best hand. The play of the early position bettor is just consistent with a weak Ace and very well could have been one. Then you would be kicking yourself for raising. If you are never laying down winners you are playing too many hands too long. Stick with your gut and get rid of those big pairs when overcards hit and there are multiple people in the pot.
Sounds like a good game to be in, good luck in the future.
KJS
I'm looking to play in a $5-10 game with a timed collection of $5 per half-hour. Is this good or bad?
Does any sort of adjustment need to be made in playing this game as opposed to a typical rake game?
Thanks all.
In the end, a good player should be able to overcome that time charge at those stakes and still beat the game for a decent hourly rate. The adjustment you should make is that you do not need to play excessively tight to avoid paying the rake, as some advocate you should do when playing a rake game. In my opinion, this idea has some merit, but you must balance the desire to not pay the rake with the value gained by playing more hands. In a loose passive game, I am not worried about paying the rake, because I usually win a rather large pot if I play a hand and win with it. In a tight game, rake will kill you, because the majority of pots are small and are raked the full 10% (or whatever the rake is). In loose games, the pot often goes over the point where no more rake is taken, which effectively is reducing the percentage of the pot which is taken. A 40$ pot raked 10% loses 4$ to the house, but so does an 80$ pot. The percentage of the pot that is really taken by the house is less in the 80$ pot though. Of course if the game is tight, you should be looking for another game anyway, time or rake will kill you in a tight game, if the players don't first.
Dave in Cali
Had a weekend trip to Biloxi this past week with a soon-to-be-married buddy of mine. On the way back, we got in a heated debate about the merits of Ace-Two offsuit as a starting hand in full-table 1488.
He argued that you should play it if you have a lot of callers in front of you and you can get in on the cheap (limping for the cost of the $2 big blind). Apparently his idea is that you can see if you flop the miracle straight, three suited cards to go with your ace, or two pair, and then get out if you don't. He also maintains that if an ace flops, and no one bets, you're probably a winner (most people play pretty abc at the 4-8 tables, after all). For him, the implied odds after one of these happens is worth the cost of the $2 calls you'll have to make to get to one.
Anyway, I think he's on crack. I refuse to play A2o, because I think its a waste of the two dollars preflop, and if you do hit something other than the perfect three card flush flop you're running a serious risk of coming up with the second-best hand and paying off number one.
So if I could, to settle the point between my friend and I, I'd love to see a show of hands as to who plays this hand, who doesn't, and why.
weird... i just made a weekend trip to biloxi to play 1-4-8-8 and i am getting married in march 2002 (i guess that is not soon to be married but...)
anyway to your question. maybe if i am on the button and everyone has called the $2 bet and a quick glance at the blinds makes me believe that no raise is comming and many of my opponents go to far with their hand when i flop a monster (3 4 5 rainbow might not be good b/c someone else in late position might have called with 67s) then i would probably play A2o. all this said, i agree your friend is on crack =)
last weekend was my first time to biloxi. was it me or did the games seem tough until around 11:00 pm and then they seemed really easy?
IMO, rama jama
The only time I would ever play this hand in full tabled Hold 'Em is when I have it on the button, am first in and the blinds play too tight.
The chances of flopping two pair or better is about 28:1. Your friend's odds to call hoping to flop two pair or better are 10:1 at best. The chances that he flops an A and loses are pretty good and the chances he flops and A and correctly folds when he is beat seem pretty bad if he thinks A2o is a good starting hand.
Playing easily dominated hands is one of the biggest leaks in LL HE players. Do your friend a favor and teach him the err of his ways. Quick.
KJS
Thanks.
1-4-8-8 is a betting structure where you can bet any amount between 1 and 4 on the first 2 rounds and anything between 1 and 8 on the last 2 rounds. Usually played with 1-2 blinds.
KJS
.
I agree with you. A-2o is one of those hands that needs a 'miracle' flop. Seldom do you get it and too often the turn or river an corrupt your hand...
Throw that garbage away. By his logic, 62o would be ok too, so you can hope for a miracle 345, 222, 666, 266 or 226. Every hand can have miracle flops.
How about A2 suited, then?
In late position, with lots of callers?
Do the flush possibilities make enough of a difference to make it profitable?
A2s here is a really, really easy call.
Yes, the flush possibilities make it an easy call. But remember, if you hit an ace, you probably have to fold. You will be looking to flop a flush draw (or 2 pair or better).
Full ring game. $3/6 Paradise Poker game. A familiar EP player open-raises. I know he would raise ANY hand in group 1 or 2 as well as AQo...and nothing else. Very predictable preflop. Postflop plays well...I would say neither of us has a huge advantage.
All fold to me in the cutoff. What should I play? Specifically,
JJ-99? AQo, AJo, KQo? AJs, ATs, KQs, KJs?
Seems like I am either dominated or a small favorite. Should I see the flop anyways? Position is good for me, but he will be playing aggressively no matter what at least through the turn. He may not 3-bet me if I raise, but I don't think he will make a bad fold either. What do you do?
Mojay
Looks like a small, possibly heads up, pot. I would call or reraise (depending) with AA-1010, AKo or AQs.
Most of the hands you mentioned are borderline and I would fold them if he is a solid player, except for the pairs. I would reraise with JJ and consider reraising with TT, and would probably call with 99, but folding would be OK, and sometimes reraising would probably be ok, to get it heads up. If the flop came Jack high or less, and he bet, I would raise him with TT or 99 and see what he did. If it was queen high or higher I would fold to a bet with TT or 99.
If the flop came Jack high or less, and he bet, I would raise him with TT or 99 and see what he did. If it was queen high or higher I would fold to a bet with TT or 99.
This jumped out at me because I know that you are a slight favorite to 2 overcards. So, you must be a dog to 3 overcards. If you're going to fold when a Q K or A hits, then you're essentially up against 3 overcards.
48% of flops do not contain a queen or higher. (I have 48 choose 3 = 19600, flops (counting the 2 cards of the opponent) versus 38 choose 3 cards <=jacks left in the deck).
So, it appears like you have odds on the preflop call, /if/ he's going to fold on the flop when he misses. But on a rags flop, the EP raiser knows that you know he has missed. You're likely to go further than the flop, so using the 48% figure is misleading.
Add to the fact that a significant percentage of the time EP raiser has a higher PP than yours, and a tricky opponent may represent a PP when he misses, and it's not a good situation. I now am going to think about folding these pairs against a legit raise.
Another important point is that when the high card is A, K or Q, there is a greater chance you are drawing dead with TT or 99.
KJS
The reason I made that statement is that in my experience, a pre-flop raise usually means at least AQ, if not AK or a pair, but AJ is not raised with nearly as often, and I usually don't see a legit pre-flop raiser show down AJ. Therefore, I do not think it is worth taking the chance of calling to the river when an ace, king, or queen overcard flops and you have a pair smaller than that.
The reason I made that statement is that in my experience, a pre-flop raise usually means at least AQ, if not AK or a pair, but AJ is not raised with nearly as often, and I usually don't see a legit pre-flop raiser show down AJ. Therefore, I do not think it is worth taking the chance of calling to the river when an ace, king, or queen overcard flops and you have a pair smaller than that.
I understand what you're saying, I think. If it is rare that the EP raiser has anything less than AQ, then you may be right to fold when a Q K or A falls. However, if this is the case, then I think this means you're a dog to begin with. The preflop call is marginal.
I just also realized that the S-M advice is to sometimes (2/3 is it?) raise in EP with high suited connectors worse than AQ. Also occasionally raise with hands like T9s for balance and deception. My guess is that this is to avoid letting people get away from hands like TT easily.
Online Lowest Limite game, 1 of my first hands:
All foldet to me, I raise with A 9o, only the BB called.
Flop comes A 7 5 rainbow.
BB bets out, I raise, he reraised (!) , I call.
Turn: 2
BB bets, what do you do?
Thx
Mike
Call. This is heads-up play and you have top pair w/ middle kicker. I think calling him down is required if you don't have a read on him. Besides, you have 3 outs to snag a nine if you're losing to a higher ace or two pair.
Mojay
In general, I would probably fold and save two big bets. You will not find yourself raising with an ace, nine kicker, and getting reraised very often when you are not beaten.
you know the correct play..i bet you do net 20.00/hr or more 3/6...gl
I would cap it on the flop and fold if he bets into me on the turn. There is a chance he is testing you, thinking you might raise with anything since you raised pre-flop. (I might make this play with 99 or tt so I know I can safely fold on the turn). When you cap it, you are screaming top pair or better. If he bets again knowing that, I think you can pretty safely assume you are beat.
Do not routinely payoff with these hands to the river or you will lose quite a few bets per session.
KJS
Well, what I do is just call the flop. It's a nothing pot, for one, and there's a fair chance you'll get him to keep betting with the worst hand. On the turn, if he bets again, I'll usually raie, and muck if he three bets. If he calls I MAY just call down the river, alhtough with a a paint kicker I'm sure I'd bet again.
I apologize in advance for my ignorant question, but how does paradise police collusion in real money games. I don't like the idea of playing against several polayers who share knowledge of their pocket cards. Thanks
They use tactics like monitoring who is in the same game and how frequently, watch for players who fold really good hands without obvious reasons, watch for players who frequently raise each other, or whom might dump it on the river for one more bet. They have programs to analyze hand histories and player tactics in many ways, but I am not an expert on how they do it. I would email them and ask them. I do not vouch for their games, nor can I say for sure whether cheating is prevolent or not. I have several friends who play on it and win, and claim it's all on the level. Then I have other friends who are convinced or almost convinced that cheating occurs (I won't mention names in either case). Since I don't play on the internet (no need to with a great cardroom right down the street), it is unlikely that I will ever be able to tell you for sure. You would probably get more responses, and possibly multitudes of "theories" if you posted this on the internet poker forum.
1-2 table PP
Limp in early with KQ o, 2 callers.
Flop: K 9 7 rainbow
I bet, 2 callers.
Turn: 2
I bet, 1 raiser.
What do you do? I called him down, lost to 77.
I often have the feeling that I should muck my hand vs a raise on the turn.
thx!
Mike
At 1-2 and 2-4 PP, you must learn that the raise (especially the check raise) on the turn USUALLY means they have a monster. As the levels go higher, more and more this is a bluff, but at 1-2, 2-4 and mostly at 3-6 and 5-10, especially with that sinking feeling that you are drawing dead, you will save a lot of money over the long run by folding. or in some cases, not this one, you could check the turn.
Mark
You could just fold.
Sometimes it's easy to muck, sometimes it isn't. But here's a piece of advice which has rarely led me wrong in LL games.
If you are check-raised on the turn in a pot that is being contested AT LEAST three ways you can safely muck, unless pot odds dictate that you call and try and improve. This is about as much of a no-brainer as you can get for these situations. In hands like the one you're describing it's not always so easy to get away, although I've tried to make a habit of trying to learn when it's safe to muck.
Hope this helps,
Guy
Tx alot for your comments.
Unfortunately I dont understand (my mother tongue isnt English) this phrase:
...pot that is being contested AT LEAST three ways
Does it means 3 players are still in? or..? :o(
Thx
Mike
Mike-
You've got it. At least three players are in, including yourself.
Hope this helps,
Guy
.
Here's one I played on Paradise recently. All comments criticisms are, of course, welcome.
I'm UTG with 99 and call. Next guy raises. All fold to the blinds, who both call.
flop: 789 rainbow. I bet, pre-flop raiser calls, all call.
turn: The dreaded 6. Checked to me, I check, pre-flop raiser bets, two call, and I raise. Pre flop raiser drops, both others call.
River: K, with no flush possible. SB checks out, BB checks, and I check.
I'd be curious to hear your rationale for the checkraise on the turn. I would tend to bet out and see if anyone raises me, then I can decide if I think they hit a straight. Without any reasonable guarantees no one is drawing to the straight (or hit it with JT on flop) I have a hard time throwing in 2 bets on the expensive street. It is a good value raise if you have a good read that they are playing worse than a trips. Just not sure you can make that assumption with 2 players calling both the flop and turn. Still, their checks on the river indicate maybe they were.
I would still bet you lost to a straight.
KJS
Your check-raise on the turn is bad. Someone with a straight, especially the nut straight, will know their hand is good and reraise. Now you are just costing yourself extra money to draw out. You should have checked and called. At the river, expect to lose to a straight when a blank comes.
Agreed. On the river, compared to the turn, the greater chance of the sb slowplaying a ten or either blind slowplaying a 5 (out of fear), plus the greater chance that neither can call with a worse hand, vindicates wimpiness. But I would have raised before the flop.
I don't know.. I'm still up in the air about raising pre-flop with 9's-J's in early position in these games, although you certainly do have a point. As you indicate I'm basically worried about a 5 here (it is, after all, a low limit paradise game), but I still wonder if I shouldn't have value bet, hoping to get called by someone with-- who knows??-- an 8, a 7, etc. The check-raise on the turn is a funny deal. In retrospect I think I should have bet the turn, then dealt with a check raise if I had to, but at the time I felt pretty much done with the hand. Well, not DONE WITH IT, but I didn't want to spend any more than 2 BB's to show down if I didn't improve on the river.
But the pre-flop raiser's bet changed things. I didn't put him on any kind of a hand since he didn't raise my flop bet, and since the ONLY hand that's generally consistent with his play is JT. I wasn't all that convinced he had it when he bet-- I figured it was some lame attempt to steal with overcards-- and when the rest of the table just CALLED I figured I was probably best. Plus, even if I'm not, I might get all kinds of crazy action on the river if someone slowplayed a set on the flop and got scared on the turn. So, I raised. Which, given the fact that I screwed up and didn't bet the turn, was probably the right play.
So did you win the hand?
I'm sorry, I keep forgetting to post the results. Yes, in fact,I did win. The other guy had pocket 6's, having spiked his set on the turn.
Hello all...
I have a question regarding expected win rates when playing $3-6 hold em. In Poker Essays volume 1, Malmuth states that an OK player can make $4/hour, a good player $6/hour, and a great player $12/hour. Contrary to this, I've heard from many people that you can win more than this consistently becuase LLHE is in some way different.
What do you think?? How did any of you gurus do when/if you began playing $3-6 (or any other form of LLHE)?? I would rate myself as "good" according to Malmuth's table, so am I basically going to hit a wall around $6/hour??
Thanks in advance for any responses!
-----Jeff
If you took away the usually high rakes or drops, a good player would be probably able to make 3BB/hour, but the rake is usually sucking this away. I think that if you make the necessary adjustments needed for loose games (which are the norm for low limits), plus you resist the temptation to play too many hands, and you read players well, you can probably expect to hit the 2BB an hour mark if the rake is not too high. But this will not happen overnight, holdem is a very complex game and is not easily mastered. I was barely breaking even after several hundred hours of play when I first started, and I had read about 15 books during that time period (including most of the books available from 2+2). Experience, LOTS of experience, is the thing that got my win rate above one big bet per hour. Now that I have played thousands of hours, I do better, but if you expect to ever break the 2BB/hour mark, you will have to become an excellent player, at least according to Mason.... Of all the people who have claimed to have a win rate above 3BB per hour at low limit games, or any games for that matter, I only believe a very small % of them (especially if there was a high rake or drop in their regular game).
Dave in Cali
If the table stays _full of chips_ (key words),you can crack 2 BB an hour at LL. This is over the long haul, not day by day, or session to session.
I play $4-8, and when I see over $1.5k in chips spread around the table it's an excellent game. Less money or people - the game is tight and the win rate is lower.
If you are or become skillful enough you should be able to win 2 BB or more per hour.
Does this statement of mine seem valid or is it complete nonesense??
"In a typical game of LLHE (most players loose/passive), you wouldn't lose much if you only raise preflop with big pairs (AA-QQ, maybe JJ) and big suited cards. (yes, this excludes AKo...shoudl it?)"
Obviously if you are playing against observant opponents you will have to vary your play more, but in LLHE you usually aren't...
What do you think? Am I crazy for even pondering this strategy?
You're not crazy, you're just wrong. You'll have to check-fold after the flop a fair amount, but failing to raise before the flop with AK/AQ probably costs in the vicnity of .5 to 1 small bets per hour in a slow game.
If they are passive and loose, there are going to stay in the hand until the bitter end.
Imho you set yourself up for a high sd raising against passive players preflop. If your bankroll can handle a high sd and large losses, go for it.
At this type of table I wait for good flops to go with my premium cards, then I pound away.
UTG AA. I raise pre-flop, get a couple of callers plus the BB (let's call them MP, LP, BB).
Flop Qh Ts 4h
BB checks, I bet, all call.
Turn Th.
BB checks, I bet, MP folds, LP raises, BB folds. What do I do? (I do not have the A of hearts).
What if I did have the A of hearts?
Let's say I had the A of hearts, called and no heart hit the river, do I check/call or check/fold?
In general what kind of board and action would make me fold a big overpair on the turn?
sam
Look at it this way,
if LP is a good player, he should know that it's very unlikely that you have a flush (unless you raised with AhKh)or a T (just about the only hand that you would raise UTG which would include a T would be TT !), so he may make a move on you if he knows you're capable of laying down a big pocket pair. Furthermore a solid player will rarely call a raise, even in late position, with a hand which includes a T if he thinks only three players will be in the hand (JT suited is where i would draw the line).
So, IMO, you have to call all the way or even reraise on the turn and fold if reraised(he may also make a move with a hand like KQ with the king of hearts, knowing that even if you call is raise, you will probably check to him on the river, thus costing him the same amount as if he had called on the turn and the river).
On the other, if he's a total rock, you probably should fold.
My answers to your questions are as follows:
1. On the turn there is now three hearts on the table plus an open pair. The LP cold-called your preflop raise and there were other players involved when he called your flop bet and raised you on the turn. Lacking the Ah, I think you have a clear fold here against most opponents.
2. With the Ah, you have an easy call.
3. Assuming a total blank comes at the river, you should probably fold if the river gets bet after you check. Only against a very peculiar opponent who is capable of semi-bluff raising on the expensive street and who knows you very well would you consider calling here.
4. In general a highly coordinated board with players betting and raising should normally convince you to dump it right then since you are frequently playing with no outs and in those cases when you do have outs it is a two-outer which is a 23-to-1 shot and the pot odds will usually not be there to chase.
The answer is.....it depends!
If the game is very low limit your hand is probably beat. If you are in a sane 4-8 or 6-12 game (oxymoron), the LP could be putting an end play on you. He could have AQ with the Ah and semi-bluff raise knowing he will check if he misses the flush draw.
I wasn't there and it wasn't my money but unless LP is a total rock, I call the raise on the turn and check on the river. If LP bets again, it's decision time.
1-2 PP holdem
Im in late position with As Jh, 2 people in midposition called.
I raise (most of the times I limp in with AJo), both called.
Flop: Jc 6d 8c
A good flop, its checked to me, I bet, both called again.
Turn: Kh
Again checked to me, and here im unsure about my play. I could bet, dont give them a free card to the flush, or check. I checked.
River: 6s
First player bet, 2nd called, and I called (unsure again)?!
1st player shows Kd 7d and wins the pot 2nd player shows Tc 8s
What do you think about the turn and river play?
Thx a lot!
Mike
Preflop, ace-jack offsuit is not a raising hand when two other players voluntarily enter a pot. I think you need at least ace-queen offsuit.
Of course you bet the flop with top pair, top kicker. On the turn, you must bet again when checked to. Your hand may still be good and you should give your opponents a chance to fold or at least be charged rather than getting a free card to suck out on you. The king overcard could look just as scary to them as to you. Furthermore, you were the preflop raiser marked with a good hand which could easily include a hand like ace-king. Dogging it like this on the turn is very bad poker.
At the river, I think you should fold when it is bet and called to you. There is now an open pair on the table in addition to the king overcard. The presence of an overcaller makes folding quite clear.
"Preflop, ace-jack offsuit is not a raising hand when two other players voluntarily enter a pot. I think you need at least ace-queen offsuit."
I dont agree with this. You probably arent dominated by the players who have already limped, and you can buy the button with a raise and give for instance the BB a chance to fold. Furthermore, especially in low limit, people give very much credit to the preflop raiser, and it gives you often the possibility to take a free card, or steal the pot.
Regards
The problem with raising is that you already have two players committed and they can easily have cards that you need to improve. Driving out the blinds or "buying the button" is not worth as much as most people think in these situations. Raising would be better if you had only one opponent instead of two and your lone opponent was a real loose goose over whom you had good control. Furthermore, the blinds are less likely to fold since there are three players now involved rather than just one or two so they may be more prone to call whether you raise or not especially the big blind.
"The problem with raising is that you already have two players committed and they can easily have cards that you need to improve."
Yes, but when you improve you have them very likely dominated (where still talking about low limit), and I think in many occassions you dont have to improve on the flop if you're the button, you often could steal the pot right there (depending on the board ofcourse)
"Raising would be better if you had only one opponent instead of two and your lone opponent was a real loose goose over whom you had good control"
Ofcourse...I would raise any time then.
"Furthermore, the blinds are less likely to fold since there are three players now involved rather than just one or two so they may be more prone to call whether you raise or not especially the big blind."
How could that be? When you dont raise the BB would play 100% of the time. And I still do think the SB would play more often if he can just pay 0.5 SB than 1.5SB.
Regards
He wasn't saying that the blinds are more likely to play than if you didn't raise, he is saying that they are more likely to play than if there were less people in the pot. In other words, you should be less likely to raise when a few people have limped, like here, because your chance of eliminating the blinds is reduced.
"...he is saying that they are more likely to play than if there were less people in the pot."
". In other words, you should be less likely to raise when a few people have limped, like here, because your chance of eliminating the blinds is reduced."
The first statement is obvious..the more people .. the more odds you get. This has nothing to do with this hand.
But consider....
You call with AJo... SB gets 1:4 for a call.
You raise...assuming all limpers call... SB gets (1.5):7 =1:(4 2/3) on a call; so SB is less likely to call a raise, especially assuming the pot is raised also, so people hold a better hand than when not raised.
Raising is still the best option IMO..not are the blinds less likely to call; you also have a postflop advantage.
Regards
P.S. I just came home from a long evening with some friends, with a little bit too much alcohol...but plz tell me where I'm wrong.
"Preflop, ace-jack offsuit is not a raising hand when two other players voluntarily enter a pot. I think you need at least ace-queen offsuit."
I dont agree with this.
I don't agree either. I hate AJ most of the time, but if there are 1 or 2 limpers in front of me I think raising is a great move. I don't think it's likely either one has an ace, but if they do have one (or a jack) you are going to dominate them. And I think it gives more credit to your hand that you raise with 2 players in already. Nobody is going to put you on a steal. Of course if there are 3 limpers in front of me, I'd rather muck this hand than give those kind of implied odds.
-Riff
I like your raise with AJ in late position; you might get some people out and buy the button.
Flop play is fine; on the turn I would generally bet again if checked to me, and if called, check the river if a blank hits. As you said you dont want to give a flushdraw a free card, and many players wouldnt check-raise you with a lone king. No-one has showed any strength so far, so you dont want a Q or something to catch up with you, who otherwise would have folded on the turn.
Regards
I had just sat down at the game and had only been there about five minutes, when this all too familiar loose aggressive player takes the seat two to my left. D'OH! I did not see that he was next on the board or I would have moved, forcing him to sit on my right. Anyway, I shall not fear…. This guy raises with any pair, no matter what, and will gladly cap it too if given the chance. He will also raise with virtually any A, K, or Q, but not always, it depends on his particular whim at the moment. The more raisers in the game, the more likely he is to start jacking it up. He plays hands like 62o for a raise, but WISELY folds 72o, because "that's the worst hand you can get". You know the type….
So I am on the button with JcTh and four limp, I limp. Mr. LAG is in the BB and checks.
Six see the flop, which is Ts 8h 7h. All check to me and I bet. SB calls and LAG check-raises. I know he would do this with any nine or any two hearts, plus some other hands that don't beat me, so I don't necessarily give him much credit for having me beat. Two cold call and I call.
The turn is the 6d. He bets and two fold, I call, SB calls. Three players.
The river is the 2s (brick city). The SB says "I can't handle him" and checks. (he destroyed her in a previous game by playing wildly and getting lucky). Mr. LAG also checks. I say quitely to the SB "well I can" and bet. She folds and so does he. I take the pot and turn in my cards face down.
The funny thing is, that if I had reraised him on the flop, he would have no doubt capped it. In this case, I did not believe that he had a real hand. I felt that he was trying to take over the table and establish his dominance as soon as he sat down. Homey don't play those games! Of course it completely dumbfounds me what he could have actually had….
I love this game!
Comments welcome
Dave in Cali
If you thought you had him beat on the turn you could make a very strong case for raising here. If the SB calls you're essentially done with the hand, but since you've got to show down against LAG anyway you might as well try to blow out any live draws that are out there.
LAG = Loose Aggressive Game LAP = Loose Aggressive Player
You always call the LAP a LAG.. unless it's now Loose aggressive goose.
Anyways, you could have seen his hand by not betting the river if you wanted.. since it seems like he would only call if he had you beat.
Re: GD / Riff Raff
The river bet was more of a psychological bet than any other kind of bet. I didn't think he would call and I didn't think he would be able to beat me, and obviously he wouldn't fold a better hand. So in reality I violated the river rule for reasons to bet (because a worse hand will call or a better hand will fold). I believe this example shows a possible third reason to bet the river, for "psychological impact". I shown him that his aggression will not dominate me and make me play passively against him, and that he can't necessarily buy the table by playing wildly. GD made a good point in his post about raising the turn. I wasn't that sure I had him beat though, or I might have considered that more strongly. I was SURE I had him beat on the river though. I thought the turn board was too risky to raise him, and it cost the same to call him down.
Now we all want brains the size and capacity of Mason's. The question is how do we get our mits on it? The most obvious way is to wait until his demise and buy it off his estate. As this is a plus EV situation for Mason (and his heirs) I don't think there will be any complaints (and no Gary you aren't allowed to extract it now).
But can you wait that long? If not the other option to try and expand your brain (and eventually your head) by thinking. The following is a logical question which will tax even the stupidest of you (no offence). Beware all 2+2 munchkins that the answer does not lie in the good book (nor in the bible).
If you do figure it out don't post the answer for a few days so that all Christendom can enjoy the puzzle.
The Concert
U2 are giving a concert but it is starting in 17 minutes time. The problem is that the only way to get to the stage is across an old delapidated rope bridge. But it is night time and they have only got one torch.
The bridge can only hold two people at a time max. All of the band are big scardy cats and will only cross the bridge with the torch and if two are crossing the bridge together they hold hands for comfort.
Bono is drugged up to his eyeballs so it takes him 10 minutes to cross the bridge.
Larry is carrying the drum kit so it takes him 5 minutes to cross the bridge.
Adam is dieing for a leak so it only takes him 2 minutes to cross the bridge.
The Edge has taken an overdose of amphetamines so it only takes him 1 minute to cross the bridge.
Can they make the concert in time?
Keep Folding
Folding Pete
PS No you can't throw the torch over the bridge, nor (Gary) set it alight while Mason is crossing.
1,2 go. 1 back. 10,5 go. 2 back. 1,2 go. Done 17 minutes.
No, they can't make it. If you send 2 across and try to get one to go back with the torch, 2 have to come back, since they're all too scared to cross alone. Cain't be done, even if all of them are on speed.
Apparently, this question is given to potential Microsoft employees as sort of an intelligence/aptitude test before they will hire someone. They are given 5 minutes to answer. The story goes that the test was given to several Motorola employees and none on them could figure it out.
Any clue which stock you should invest in?
The problem didn't say they were afraid to cross alone only that they wouldn't cross without the torch
rearranging a little:
will only cross the bridge if [with the torch] and two are crossing the bridge together
with your re arrangement "will only cross the bridge if [with the torch] and two are crossing the bridge together" The problem is insoluble but this was not part of the original problem the conditions were: 1. Bridge can hold 2 maximum 2. most have torch 3. if 2 cross together they hold hand (this doesn't rule out 1 crossing alone)
However the problem may lack adequate information because we don't know if Larry can carry the drumkit with one hand or if he can hold hands with hand that carries the drumkit
This is a grammer school problem. If you want a question to rivel the minds of those as mighty as Mason, try the following out:
Suppose you have a balance scale (one that tilts up or down on one side if the other side is heavier or lighter respectively.:
-------
...^...
Suppose you have 13 coins, all of which look identical to each other.
Suppose 1 coin weighs a different amount than the other 12 (so the other 12 all weigh the same amount).
Explain how to identify the odd-ball coin using only 3 measurements of the scale.
Keep in mind, the coin could be heavier or lighter.
For example, *if* the coin was lighter than the other 12, and you put it on the left of the scale and another coin on the right, the left side of the scale would tilt up. And that would count as 1 measurement.
Couple notes:
- This is not a trick question, it's a logic problem, like the earlier post. The solution does not involve looking at your watch or trying to bite the coins, there is no stupid trick.
- Remember the coin can be heavier or lighter, you don't know.
- It can be done.
You will excuse me for for this as I have never been to grammar school. I like your problem even though it lacks the celebrity cachet of my post.
You should have spiced it up by saying Ray Zee was on his way to buy cigarettes from a cigarette machine that only took coins (twelve needed). This is back in the 70's when Ray smoked and before he learned to type. Now Ray had been playing nickel Omaha Hi\Lo poker with Seattle Rus (a founding member of GCA). Ray started with many rolls of coins but now had been virually wiped out and had only thirteen coins left. He strongly suspected that Rus had introduced lead alloy coins into the game and that he had one of them...
and so on..
Anyhow here is my solution to the coins.
1. Weight eight coins (4 against 4). If they balance go to step 3. Assuming they don't balance you will have 4 potentially light coins (L) and 4 potentially heavy coins (H) and 3 unweighted coins (U) that you know are standard.
2. Place 1H & 2L on one side and 1H & 1L & 1U on the other and weight. If they balance take the 3 of the eight not weighted (the 2nd time) and go to step 4. If .... this is getting hard to write (and long winded).
The main point is that you get to three coins eith 2H & 1L or 1H & 2L. By splitting the 2H (or the 2L) and weighting them against each other you identify the dud coin.
And the moral of this story is that even though Ray could identify the coin he got mugged while waiting at the cigarette machine and lost all the coins. From that day forth he vowed never to smoke again and left for California.
Keep folding
Folding Pete
Is the .50/1.00 game on Paradise a beatable game? I think the rake is .25 per $5.00. I've been playing the play money tables for over a year and I'm looking to start somewhere (no casinos where I live). Thanks. This forum is great!!
I think its beatable. I play about 3 monthes on 0.5/1 and 1/2 and Im winning so far.
Mike
This game is very beatable, but you shouldn't expect that your bankroll will increase in a smooth and predictable manner. Their will be days when you loose to all manner of strange hands, and their will be times when everything you hold stands up.
The nice thing about this game is that there are very many weak players, who play for a little entertainment, and play like the money is almost nothing to them ( which it probably isn't. Hey - they got computers and credit cards ).
If your having trouble beating this game after a while, say after 100 to 150 big bets, its time to take a break and figure out where the money is leaking and study some more. Negative 100 big bet swings will occur many times in your poker career, and they might happen just because of bad beats, but they shouldn't happen very often at this level unless you are making some sloppy plays. Whenever one happens, its usually a good time to take an inventory of your game and find out whats happening.
The thing thats really good about this game as a learning tool, is that it is low limit poker to the extreme, and you have to be able to figure out if your hand is the best one - there will be a showdown, and if it is, how to insure that it will stand up, and how to make it make the most money for you.
One other benefit of this game, is that the frequent showdowns allow you to see what your opponents are playing and get a grasp on what their style is. ( you can use the hand record utility to see all hands in the pot at the showdown )
One other word of caution, is don't think about moving up, until you have beat a particular level for about 200 Big Bets. That will give you enough experience and bankroll to survive at the next level, while you are learning to play that level.
good luck,
bt.
PP 1-2 table
First in, Middle Pos., with As 10s, I raise. Only SB and BB called.
Flop comes: A 3 3 rainbow
Its checked to me, I bet, both called. Set?
Turn: 9
I bet again, both called. Where's the 3?
River: J
Check, check, check.
SB shows K 3o for the pot.
In "Winning low limit Holdem" from Lee Jones he thinks in a similar example to check the turn, and call a bet on the river against not too many opponents.
How do you play such situations?
What do you do if 1 player bets the turn or the river?
Thanks!
Mike
In a decent game-- by which I mean one populated by decent players-- I'll often check the turn to avoid getting check raised by someone with a a better kicker. But, in a small game if someone had a better A you probably would have heard about it on the flop, which makes betting a decent play. True, you have to worry about someone with a three, but you'll get called down here by 66 so often that on the balance a bet is profitable. If you get check-raised, of course, you have a decision to make, so what I would say-- and I believe I'm echoing Mason's sentiments here-- is to check the turn and try to induce either a bluff or a call on the river.
Hey all,
Sorry I haven't posted lately, but I've been real busy with some new stuff.
This post regards the play of a particular opponent that I see fairly regularly and have the (mis)fortune of having to play with him in some low-limit games (3-6 and 4-8).
He usually plays medium limit games (10-20 and above) but sometimes after he takes a bath on the terrace, he'll come down and terrorize the low limit games. I have seen him play in the 10-20 games and he's fairly aggressive with average hand reading skills at best. He can hold his own up there, but results can go either way, usually with big fluctuation.
Anyway, he likes to intimidate immediately on arrival and will start raising with any two cards above 10 from any position. In addition, he usually likes to hit the sauce frequently once he arrives. What usually happens is that he'll win a few decent pots ($50 or more) with this style of play. He then buys another rack or two of chips in addition and places them in front of him, building a huge mountain of chips for psychological effect.
By this time, everyone else at the table is beginning to figure out his ultra-loose raising requirements. The game now becomes "no fold em hold em" with some huge family pots that are 2 bet at least on every street. I usually try to stay out of the way, and tighten up considerably during this time.
After he's won a few and pounded more than a few, he'll usually announce that "it's time to gamble folks". With that, he'll get his pocket cards and put a stack of chips on them. He won't even look at his cards, just protects his cards and starts firing away with raises. Now, more than ever, the game becomes no fold em with some huge pots (you need a stepladder to get over the chips). I, again, try and restrain myself from getting involved.
Now, I can handle a maniac and make adjustments accordingly (change seats, tighten up, etc)... but what do you do when this guy sits in your game? My usual response is to immediately get up from the game and ask for a table change. I do this because I've seen a game virtually self-destruct before my eyes with several opponents losing multiple racks of chips. The table change works for me, except that the casino I play at will not allow table changes if the games are less than full and there's no waiting list. So, sometimes, I either have to go home because I can't change tables, move up to a higher limit game with limited bankroll (bad idea), or take my chances in this game.
My question is this: if you have to play in this game, what realistically can you do against this guy? He's not even looking at his cards for crying out loud. He could have anything from 72 to AA under there. Playing against a maniac who looks at his cards is one thing, but what about when he doesn't?
Any comments and helpful hints would be most appreciated.
Mike
If the pots are routinely getting huge then just hang out, drink a Coke and wait for group I-II hands. And try to sit on his left.
These are the best kinds of games to be in-- well, O.K., not the best but they're still pretty good-- so don't miss out. you won't have a chance to play a particularly imaginative game, but if you stay tight you should show a significant profit.
These guys show up where I play too. They take over a grand off the higher limit table the night before and then reward themselves with a night of fun at the low limits where a $300.00 - 400.00 loss is no big deal.
If you either don't want to, or can't play well after dropping two or three racks in the game, stay away. If you can play well after dropping three racks it's a great game! A few pots and you're even. The way I look at the game is: it was $3-6, but now it's $9-18.
Mike
I tend to use Mike Caro's advice against these guys. It's very simple.
I will bet and raise into them less often, and I will call more often. It works great and I have found that it actually frustrates the maniac to no end.
The maniac wants to terrorize everyone at the table, he wants to run it, he wants people to quake in their boots at the mere possibility of him entering a pot. He wants to see them cringe as they release their chips.
However, when he sees you fearlessly calling him down with second and third pair as he rams and jams his underpair, he *hates* it. He likes when weak players make bad laydowns against him. He knows he bluffs so often that it is almost always correct to call against him and he greatly fears a player who also knows that.
I call this the "Wet Blanket" approach. Just smother the guy.
No fancy moves headsup, just let the guy build a pot, then call him down. I only play small and medium draws if I also have a pair because I don't want to find myself at the river with a busted draw against a guy who could have anything from 5-high to the nuts.
I will play big draws on their own though, because the maniac is often playing the same one and when it hits, you get paid nicely and often an Ace high busted straight or flush draw is enough to win against these goofballs.
A while back there was a "Tactics vs Strategy" discussion. Against a maniac, it's almost pure strategy. Just run the game plan and see what happens.
This approach gets the maniac mad, he will start to deride your play and call you names. He will also drive the needle into you when you pay off his rivered 2-outer. He'll call you a sucker and crow about how bad you are. Pay him off, but pay him no mind.
If I can, sometimes I will try to use this guy's tendencies to manipulate the other players. This is where tactics do play a part. I try to sit as close as I can to the maniac as I can, within 2 seats on either side of him. Sometimes you can raise the maniac or allow the maniac to raise you to knock out better hands. This does NOT work if your other opponents know what you are doing and don't put up with it, but if you normally play good cards, they will have no choice but to fold.
To play this strategy, you have to be very sure that your opponent is a "true" maniac and isn't the type of person who just advertises then tightens up. Keep an eye on the guy and make sure he suddenly doesn't start turning over top pair good kicker winners instead of the usual 9h2s that caught running dueces to win.
This "Anti-maniac" strategy has worked so well for me that often it's maniac who will leave when he sees me sit down instead of the other way around.
Beware though, if the maniac is catching cards he will amass huge piles of chips, including yours, and there is not much you can do about it.
i agree with the previous advice. you gotta make the plays he doesn't want you to make. you gotta look extra carefully and catch this guy's tells and see if you can figure when that cap means 'im gambling' or if it means 'ha! they THINK im gambling but i got a doozy hand this time!' you can also get some extra value out of this guy too. if you have a pretty strong hand, and know that people are going to be sticking around when HE bets because he's a chump, then you can bet and call, or raise and call, or just check and call and you may get some people that will stick around for those raises anyways. you can build some huge huge huge pots with these guys, and it is worth it to do so sometimes.... by the way, somebody mentioned that this guy could show down anything from '5-high to the nuts' and i thought i should point out that in hold em it is impossible to have a hand that is unpaired and be worse than 9-high. think about it. youll figure it out.
Buddy of mine in a 15-30 game big blind 2-6 , sb 4-5.
Final board A379J His 6 high hand won the pot!!
I would love to play against this moron! What you have to do is to first off, get position over him. Players like this are fairly frequent in california, so I immediately ask for a seat change button whenever I join a game, and I keep it until it behooves me to change seats. You want to see what he is going to do before you act, if possible. Either way, you have to tighten up now that he's in the game, but you have to tighten up more if he is on your left. Next, you have to PUNISH HIM with your big hands. Reraise him liberally when you have good cards. Get it heads up if you can. If it's going to be multiway either way, make the cheesy hands pay to enter the pot, or to continue on to the next round. This player is going to frustrate you, but if you make your stands at strategic times, you will usually be way ahead when you put your chips into the pot. Don't let him bully you around, but don't play cheesy hands against him either. If he is playing blindly, I would liberally reraise him, even if you know he is going to cap it. Punish him for his stupidity. If he gets super-lucky and beats you anyway, them's the breaks, just don't let it put you on tilt. If you just can't handle the stress of playing against him, quitting the game is a better idea. I for one love to play against maniacs, as long as I have position over them, but then I have a strong stomach for fluctuations, and don't mind battling it out with aggressive morons.
Dave in Cali
Using hours as units, what kind of standard deviation should winning low limit players expect to see?
What are the upper and lower ranges, based on the the style of play, and the type of game?
thank you,
bt.
I personally linger just under 10 BB / hour. I play pretty tight. I would also be interested in hearing about other people.
Hi Bob,
In terms of BB/hour, my personal standard deviation is about 8.6 BB/hour, which is on the low side. I am obtaining this is a reasonably loose/passive game, although there are a few shooters who do tend to spice things up a bit.
A good rule of thumb is to expect a standard deviation of around 10 big bets per hour. As your hand reading skills get better, this should go down. If you play in more aggressive games, this will tend to go up.
In terms of a lower limit, Mason Malmuth reports a standard deviation on the order of 7 big bets/hour in some of the bigger games, so that gives you some idea of what you can aspire to.
I don't know whether there is an upper limit per se. However, the larger the standard deviation, the larger the bankroll you will require (assuming a positive win rate).
I'm assuming that you are using the maximum likelihood formula given in Mason's essay Computing Your Standard Deviation, which can be found on this site. Keep in mind that you will require 25 or 30 sessions before this estimator will start to converge reliably.
At any rate, I hope this gives some food for thought,
Dave
Thanks,
That was exactly the type of information that I was looking for. This month I started to keep track of performance hour by hour, and when I calculated the standard deviation for the first 60 hours, I was stunned when I found that it was almost 10 BBs per hour, especially since I was trying to stay away from high variance situations.
This also made me rethink my session bankroll requirements.
Good Luck,
bt.
PP $1-$2 I'm on the cutoff with AJo.. it's folded around to me, I raise. Button folds, both blinds call. Flop comes 8 6 2, Small blind bets.. Big blind calls.. The SB is quite loose and may have some of the flop. Action?
I call.. turn comes a 9. They both check to me..
I bet, hoping that I can win the pot right there (in hindsight a bad move, these players are too loose)..
Both call. Rag on the river, both check to me.. I check..
Small blind turns over 8To, BB mucks.
My question is this.. If the blinds are going to play so loose and defend with trash such as 8To, even in the small, is it worth trying to attack them with a hand such as AJ? Should I have folded on the flop? These situations come up over and over at the mini-limits.. What do you think?
I certainly think it's worth stealing the blinds with hands like AJo.
If the blinds are also very loose postflop, then I wouldnt bother trying to steal the pot with nothing. You have to make some kind of hand as cheap as possible. In this case, if the SB would only bet into you on the flop with some kind of hand, I would only call the flop. You get the odds to call (assuming you're drawing a six outer), and you dont have to raise for a free card, because against passive players, they could very well check the turn, because with this kind of board a overcard often comes on the turn (and therefore scaring you opponents).
When checked to you on the turn, I would take the free card, since the chances of stealing the pot against these opponents are very slim, and you may still be behind.
Check-fold the river if a blank hit.
This above is all assuming the blinds are very loose (pre and postflop), and passive. Against aggressive, tricky opponents, it would be a totally different situation.
Regards
Yes, I agree the Turn bet was a waste of $2 ;)
I guess the question I was trying to answer..
If you know the blinds are loose, passive, and will call with all sorts of garbage, would this make you more inclined to limp with some hands (AJ, AT, KT, QT, etc etc) knowing that you are going to have to hit to stay aggressive? Or by them calling with (probably dominated hands) is it always worth raising, then folding the flop if any action comes before you. I understand this is different if the blinds are tricky and will make plays to try and push you off your ace if the flop comes up rags.
Comments welcome
I would always raise, never open limp in late position; it's one of the worst plays IMO. Preflop you have the best hand in most occasions, so let them pay for their trash.
You dont necesarrily have to fold the flop if you dont hit; it depends on your read of the opponents. For instance if they hit the flop in some way (even lowest pair) do you get to know it; do the bet/ check-raise? If they check-call the whole way with nothing AND with a pair or something; then you must be passive when you dont hit, and aggressive when you hit.
This all is pretty straighforward, but the point is this IMO...in stealing situations/ heads up play, knowing your opponent is vital. Against some opponents you even value bet ace high on the end! And always open raise in late position, never ever limp.
Regards
I used to agree with this advice but now I don't. In the games I play in, with loose passive players, I found I was losing money going after the blinds. I realized that if there is no chance your opponents will throw away their blinds, stealing loses a lot of it's value. I open limp occasionally now from the cutoff and button, usually with marginal hands that are likely the best but do not warrant a raise (A-5, K-9 etc.).
With hands like A-J a raise is automatic though.
If you open limp with hands that dont warrant a raise, then you have to limp also with some strong hands, otherwise you would give too much away. Doing this is losing money IMO.
If the blinds are really loose pre and postflop, then just fold those marginal crap hands, because if you're ahead, you're just slightly ahead. It wouldnt be too much of a money loser, if at all.
Regards
I agree in general, but if you have a blind who'll give you action with 3rd pair no kicker you can score a nice pot. A lot depends on your abilityto read your opponents. Against deceptive players folding is the right play.
Hey Gang,
I felt I played a very strong session last night from a poker decision standpoint (although the money end of things didn't quite catch up...)
Here's one hand, however, where another 2+2er who happened to be seated at the table with me disagreed with some aspects of my play.
PREFLOP
I'm on the button with Qd9d. 5 players (!) limp to me. I limp. SB calls and BB checks.
8 players, 8 sb in the pot.
FLOP: Td 8c 4d
I hold a 12 out hand with position. A queen may also be an out, but I'm not counting the queens as possibles given this large a field. UTG bets, three players call, next player raises. I 3-bet on the button. Blinds fold, original bettor and first two callers call, next folds, and the raiser just calls.
There are 5 players, with 24 sb = 12 bb in the pot.
Question 1: What do you think of my 3-bet in this situation with my hand? I made it for a number of reasons: a) It allows me to take control of the hand. b) Given this large a field, I feel that the raise here is for value. c) Even if I should knock a few players out, this may also be to my advantage, in that my queens may also become potential outs.
TURN: Qs
Checked to 2nd UTG who bets, next two fold. I raise, having a pair to go along with my 12 outs. UTG cold-calls, 2nd UTG calls.
3 players, 18 bb in the pot.
RIVER: blank
UTG checks. 2nd UTG flings his cards disgustedly into the muck. I pause for a moment. UTG leans forward to get a look at me, and asks: "What, no bet?" He has enough chips for a call in his hand. He has not shown that he is capable of laying down a hand in the (limited) time that I've played with him.
Question 2: I feel that any bet I make here is strictly a value bet ... there is no bluffing potential despite how strongly I've played the hand. Do you make the value bet?
All comments appreciated.
Results to follow,
Dave
Something about the demeanor of UTG suggested that I was beat, so I checked the hand down. (I'm not sure I like that...)
UTG shows QTo for top two pair. I show my Q9s and make some comment about the number of outs I had to hit. 2nd UTG claims to have had AJo with a diamond.
There is no substitue for that 'something in their demeanor' read.
Late in a tournament, everybody shortstacked, I pick up KK on the button. Everybody folds to me, I raise, and the BB a strong player calls.
Flop - A - Q - 5 rainbow.
She checks, if you asked me, I would say that I would bet 100% of the time here, but I checked.
Turn - Blank,
check, check.
river - blank
She checks, I turn over my hand and say, I dont think these are anygood, and she smiles and shows me AQ.
She was trying to eliminate me, and somehow I escaped and I still don't know what it was that made me check three times.
good luck,
bt.
David,
1) I think that the 3 bet is OK, with the late position raiser is likely to knock out almost anyone who was'nt coming along anyway, so you may as well value bet with you draw against this large field. if anybody is playing overcards this will get rid of them, and as you said it might make your an out.
turn) If you are going to call one bet on the river with your queens, you may as well raise the turn, and get to the river for two large bets. Plus if either of you outs comes in, it will disguise your hand, because most players aren't raising draws on the turn. What do you think that they think you have right now? I'm sure its not top pair with a bad kicker.
2) Im not sure that I would have made a value bet on the end, but thinking about this hand, it seems likely that UTG has somthing like AT and if he would call with this, its probably a good bet. If you get raised, I guess your way behind, but you probably have to make a crying call, and thats why I wouldn't bet. The other thing to think about, is does he have the chips in his hand as a fake to keep you from betting, because he wants to showdown his ten, in that case you probably have to bet.
as an aside what do you think the river mucker had? KJ or AJ of diamonds, you may have been playing with fewer outs than you thought.
now it time to look at the results,
good luck,
bt.
BTF Q9s from the button is an easy call with so many limpers before you.
flop of Td, 8c, 4d. You flopped a great draw with this many opponents IMO. UTG bets and there are 3 limpers then a raise to you. You have 2 choices, you can call and hope that more people follow giving you a huge win when you hit, or you can raise knowing that you will probably get 3 or 4 callers on a 12+ outer anyway. There are other reasons to raise here as well. You are the button and may buy a free card on the turn if you miss, and like you said you may make your Q good.
Turn is Td, 8c, 4d, Qs. You now may have the best hand, + J will likely give you half the pot or more + a diamond will likely win it for you. You can't really consider a 9 an out anymore, and a J I would consider half an out. So you have 9 diamond outs + 2 Q's + 3 J (one diamond). If you are behind you have 14 outs to hit, and you may not be behind. I would raise here as well. You may be ahead, and if a blank or overcard came on the river you may likely be able to check it down.
River is Td, 8c, 4d, Qs, blank. I would check it down. There is already 18 BB in the pot. If you bet for value and are raised you can't lay down, so you are risking 2 bets to make 1 IMO. However, having said that, when someone picks up checks like he will call he often has a weak hand. I would bet that you won with your Q here, and if you had bet the river it would be a decent value bet.
Just my thoughts, Derrick
On the turn you have only 12-13 outs... sorry the Jd is already spoken for.
Generally when someone picks up checks like they will call they don't want you to bet. I would have 3 bet the turn with top 2 and no preflop raising... you are lucky you weren't playing me.
Derrick
I was the 2+2er in question who looked askance at the flop 3-bet.
Both Dave and I had been in the game long enough to know that this must not be considered a semibluff; at this point in the game you are going to be called down by someone every time. So you are going to have to hit to win.
By that token, the 3bet must be for value. Does it exist? You have 3 clean outs (hey, higher diamonds COULD be out there). Even if we give you 12 outs, I don't like the raise because it won't accomplish the purpose of taking control of the hand either. The flop raiser is a very aggressive (ok maniacal) woman, in fact the woman who kept raising with bottom set in a set vs set vs set confrontation I posted about a few weeks back. When she likes her hand, the pot is going to be showered with chips. Given that, I don't like the raise.
But I could be wrong, I am not sure here.
I probably bet the river for value, expecting to be called and win at least half the time (of course, this is based on my assessment of the players involved)
I think the three bet is fine. If you thin the field its not the end of the world as you may make a Q an out, and if everyone tags along you are making money. You will make the straight or flush in the nbhd of 45% of the time.
Granted its not a semibluff in that its unlikely you will get everyone to fold, but it is a bet for value. (I thought it was routine to jam w/a flush draw and nothing esle!)
...the flop raiser was Ron T.
Lisa didn't join the table until at least 90 minutes after this hand took place.
And I thought I wasn't paying attention!
Dave
Question 1: I disagree with this raise. You're cutting off people who might have called for two bets or one bet if they called the bet by UTG. On the flop you've got a 12-outer, not counting the 3 Qs. You're facing 2 bets with 14 bets in the pot. You're faced with 7-1 getting ~3-1(and none of those hands is the nuts). Calling here is a much better option because 1) None of your outs leave you with the nuts, which you prefer 8-handed and 2) You want to keep those weaker hands that might have called the 2 bets in.
I do, however, like your raise on the turn. You've got top pair with outs. Raising here might knock out some of those belly-buster straight draws or middle pairs.
Question #2: Bet. He's trying to provoke you into not betting. Weak players do this all the time. They check, place the required chips in their hands to call, and hold them over the pot waiting for a bet. They are praying to god you don't bet, but they will pay you off anyway. This guy probably has a pocket pair or A-10. Besides, your not bluffing! You've got top pair. Bet it, and let him pay you off.
"Question 1: What do you think of my 3-bet in this situation with my hand? I made it for a number of reasons: a) It allows me to take control of the hand. b) Given this large a field, I feel that the raise here is for value. c) Even if I should knock a few players out, this may also be to my advantage, in that my queens may also become potential outs."
While I would raise if the player to my right had not raised (i.e., for value with my 12 outer, to get a free card or whatever), I would not 3 bet when the 2 bet comes from my immediate right unless I felt that everyone would call 2 more bets cold *and* check to me on the turn. That's a rare combination but apparently that's the type of game you were in so maybe this was a spot for a 3 bet. Generally, what might happen is that your 3 bet makes the limpers fold and you don't necessarily want that here with a drawing hand. If the pot had been raised preflop with 6 players, then perhaps closing out the limpers has more merit to it.
Also you might rue your 3 bet if you happen to catch your gutshot i.e. if you had just smoothcalled, you would be in a position to raise the guy to your right on the turn. (admittedly, this is not a strong reason not to 3 bet but a reason nevertheless).
The turn raise is a bit more dicey. The Queen does not necessarily help your hand particularly when the turn bettor is betting into the flop raiser. While it is unlikely that the turn bettor has a straight (i.e. he would probably look to checkraise the flop raiser - rightly or wrongly), it is clear that he is probably not out there on a limb. He probably has a hand better than yours. On the other hand, if you are sure that this guy does not have a straight, then you may as well raise because you surely would call again on the river. This may get the one other player out (which is a good thing despite your draw given the size of the pot by that time).
River
Given that you raised the turn and UTG coldcalled, it's hard to imagine how he could have a hand that is worse than yours with which he would call. I would probably wimp out and check it down but it's pretty player dependant. If you bet, it can't be too wrong as some guys will call with just about anything in a pot that size. But the coldcall of the turn bet sure points to the fact that he either has a better hand or a busted draw.
(1) Raise on the flop is 100% fine (2) I don't raise the turn here. For one thing, I could be raising into J9. I just don't think I'm ahead at this point, so why raise? (3) I would check.
Chris
I do not like the 3 bet on the flop. I believe in betting strong draws when it is checked to me. I will also raise in late position with a nut flush draw, if enough people are already locked in and the board is not paired. Here you flush outs are not to the nut flush, and there are too many ways you could make your draw and still get beat, especially with this many people seeing the flop. Given the odds of not making your draw and the odds of making your draw and losing a lot to a better draw, I do not see the 3 bet as a good value bet. The only players you are going to knock out in LL are the blinds, and what kind of hand could the blinds have that you want out that they would call 2 bets with, but not 3? With 8 players seeing the flop in LL, forget the Q being an out.
On the river, I would definitely check. The Queen came on the turn and someone still bet into you after the 3 bet on the flop. The chances that your hand is good are small.
You know what I'm going to say Dave, EXCELLENT playing :)
I like your fire on the flop with your monster draw. You know that the players will probably cold-call anyways. Imagine the deceptive value if a J comes on the turn and somebody has open-ended 97, it could go to 4 bets.
I like your fire on the turn with your made-hand/monster draw. I'm assuming that against this player you would call the river anyways, so you are doing this with the intention of checking if you don't improve. It is even possible that you could make a better hand lay down. Although you are on a draw, the pot is big enough to try to win outright on the turn.
Good check on the river. Remember, that was the plan on the turn right? Betting here is a bad value bet since you have shown so much strength already I don't see how they can call with a weaker hand. Besides, you probably don't have a better hand.
Your twelve-shot may still be lying on the felt if the dealer hasn't scooped it yet. The other player can probably see the dust tracks and fragments of cobwebs still clinging to your chips. This is why the other player is showing so much weakness with top two. He thinks you have a straight or trips, but he will still call you down. Well played :)
Jim Roy
I wouldn't bet the river for fear of two pair by the turn bettor who called two cold on the flop. He ain't folding, so the most you are losing is one bet, IF you are ahead. I think the flop reraise was OK but unneccesary. It didn't really get you that much value, but it wasn't bad either. I probably would have just called, then raised the turn if UTG bets again and you get three callers again.
Dave in Cali
Its not a big question, but I still have problem with it.
PP 1-2
Im in MP with AJo, 1 Caller in EP, 2 in LP
Flop: A 8 7 rainbow. Its checked to me, I bet, 1 LP called so the EP
Turn: 6
EP bets, what do you do?
I called, so the LP.
River: blank
Bet, call, fold. EP wins the pot with 76 two pair.
Tx Mike
After thinking about the situation I think folding could be correct. There are many ways that im beaten, 2 pair, 3 of a kind, straight.
hmm. Hope to hear from others what they think about it.
Mike,
Unless the EP is someone who will usually bet one pair with some draw (in this case, a straight draw), you gotta figure that you're trailing. I don't think you're drawing dead yet. If he's made his hand on the turn, he'll check-raise you.
For him to bet into you from EP, warning lights should go off. You're probably looking at 2 pair at least. With a set on a rainbow board, he probably check-raises. Strongly consider folding this small pot and find a better situation for you.
Best wishes, Mike
In a normal, middle limit game I think folding is right since this card puts three parts to a straight on the table and you have no outs against a straight. The problem is that in a little $1-$2 game you are probably playing against players who are basically unaware. By that I mean that your opponent may be betting because he has made a pair of sixes and thinks he should bet.
Typical 3-6 game, 9 players, w/ a little unnecassary raising goin on pre-flop.
I'm on the button and dealt JJ
UTG raises (very loose raiser, raised Q10o UTG earlier)3 fold, 2 calls, fold, I re-raise, SB mucks, BB calls, all others call.
Flop- Q,Q,2
Checked to me, I bet and BB and 2nd pre-flop Cold caller folds. Others call. 3-players.
Turn- 6
Checked to me, I bet, Pre-flop raiser calls, next player raises. This player seemed to be fairly solid. And it wouldnt surprise me for him to have a Q here. So i fold. Pre-flop raiser calls turn then folds to a river bet and i don't get to see his cards. I basically have two questions about this hand.
1)Is a turn bet correct w/ a seemingly blank hitting? 2)Is the turn fold correct w/ a seemingly solid player check-raising me on a BB street?
All input appreciated.
SS
My thoughts are that the solid player was slow-playing his trip queens just so that he could get more money into the pot.
The bet on the turn is mandatory. You can't even consider giving away any free cards. Although I have found this type of flop to be pretty decent for a high wired pair as long as any overcards don't show, your opponent checkraised you after the only remaining player called. That's about the boldest, most aggressive play any player can make. He's not trying to get people out, he's trying to get more money into the pot and he was willing to give two pre-flop raisers a free card to do it. Good fold, you lost on the flop.
SS,
Minor point, but was flop two-suited or not? The only reason I ask is that an opponent with a Q might bet out the flop and hope that you raise to charge the flush draw. With a flop this ragged though, even if two-suited your opponent might take a chance and wait for turn check-raise. If it's rainbow, he's waiting for the turn.
1) I think in this situation, I would check behind the other two players. I don't fear giving a free card to such a ragged board. There are no draws present. If your opponent was slow-playing a Q, rest assured he'll bet out the river. You might be able to snag a J for free and get two bets anyway.
2) If your read on this guy is solid and you've played with him/her before, I think a fold can (but not necessarily be) correct. If you really want to sleep well at night, I think checking behind him on the turn and calling his river bet would be a better play. It costs you the same as folding on the turn for a bet, plus you get to see his hand.
Better flop next time. Mike
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There no such thing as a ragged flop to JJ. If anyone can make one up, I would like to see it. I still think you have to bet the turn Any Ace or King and you are dead. This is the most likely hand people will be chasing you with and the bet will fold them out. This is only my opinion, but I can honestly tell you that I cannot conceive of giving a free card with JJ when I haven't hit my set. To me... I can't even fathom checking this one.
In typical low-limit games, if you are in the cutoff (one off the button), and pre-flop everyone folds to the guy in front of you who raises, what pocket pairs should you be playing? Would it ever be correct to just call here (with any pocket pair) or is it clearly a raise or fold situation. If so, where is the line drawn? (My personal opinion is that 99 is too small, JJ is ok, but TT I don't know). What do you guys think?
It depends a bit on how good you can control your opponent postflop, but generally if a late position open raises I would surely re-raise with TT and higher. I think 88, 99 are depended on if you control your opponent and how loose his steal raising standards are, but I think I will re-raise with them also a good percentage of the times. I dont like calling.
Regards
3-6 game with $1 and $3 blinds. I am in the SB with Kc Qh.
Two late limpers (who limps late first in?), I call and the BB checks.
Flop: Kd 4h 2d
I bet out (yeah I know, I could check-raise, but the table is a bit tight and I don't know that it will get bet). BB folds, LP1 calls, LP2 raises, I make it 3, LP1 folds, LP2 caps (uh-oh), I call.
Turn: Kd 4h 2d Qd
I bet, LP2 calls. (phew)
River: Kd 4h 2d Qd Ac
I bet, LP2 calls.
Comment on my play of the hand.
(It turns out that LP2 flopped a set of 4's)
Sammy,
LP2 calls with pocket 4s with one limper? Yuck... I don't like his preflop decision very much.
With a flop as ragged (rankwise) as that, you gotta credit him for a set here. The board doesn't suggest anything else. At the very least, AK if he'll limp with that. His 4 bet should tell you that he's not fooling around.
Regardless, he's not going anywhere with a set. He'll make a crying call even if he thinks you hit the flush on the turn.
IMO, LP2 makes a bad preflop decision and gets lucky by hitting his set. I think maybe you can save yourself 2 big bets (one on flop, one on turn) because he'll probably check the turn behind you with flush on board.
Just my thoughts, better luck next time. Mike
Average 6/12 game at Hawaiian Gardens (S Ca) - Loose Passive. One caller before me, I'm in middle position with Ac Ah. I raise, Late position player and button call as do the blind (only one big blind) and the early caller.
Flop - 9h 3s 5d
Checked to me, I bet, late player raises, button calls, blind and early caller fold. I reraise, late player and button call.
Turn - Qs
I bet, late player folds, button calls.
River - 3d
I check, button bets, I call, he shows Jd 3h.
As you can see it can be frustrating playing with this type of player. It's not unusual to see these guys going to the river with bottom pair even with the betting/raising pressure I applied earlier in the hand. My check on the river was because the way he reached for chips, before I had a chance to act, when the 3d came.
Input and comments welcome, but no sympathy, this is what happens in LL in Southern California.
You played it perfectly. Nothing you could do here. Just think of all the times you win and take down a pot inflated by people calling along like this.
I believe you can learn a lot at low limit poker. One of the main things is patience and how not to go on tilt. Hands like this are not uncommon and give you a chance to practice both. Just remember. Play your "a" game all the time and maitain discipline.
Game is fairly loose BTF with average of 4-5 players limping. Then ram-jam after the flop.
I'm first to act with QJ of spades in late middle position, I limp. Player next to cutoff (NTC) raises; button cold calls; BB calls; I call. 4 players see the flop.
Flop: 9 10 K rainbow (no spades)
I bet with the intention of 3-betting (thinking the preflop raiser will raise with a K, AA or a set); NTC raises; button folds; BB 3- bets; I cap; both call.
3 players see the turn:
9 10 K (5) board now has 2 hearts
I lead; both call.
River: 9 10 K 5 (J)(diamond)
I bet; both call; I show K high st8; both muck.
Would slow playing the flop or the turn have been the better play?
All comments welcome.
Gene (holdemdude)
Once it gets raised and reraised I think you can switch to slow playing because it is very unlikely that the turn will get checked behind you. Once you cap it will slow down most people.
I think you could have gotten a bit more money by check-raising the turn unless you are pretty sure the other guy will fold for two bets cold on the turn in which case you also miss collecting a river bet form him.
Question though: preflop, do you normally only limp when coming in with QJs from late middle? I would normally try to drive out the cutoff and button here.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
Normally I would bring it in for 2 bets or fold if the game was snug.
Put this on the internet forum please.
Kind of played this one on auto-pilot but still not sure about my decisions. Turn play is most curious:
4-8 game at Diamond L'ils outside Seattle. Game has been alternating between loose and passive to tight and semi-agressive. At the moment I would characterize it as aggressive at the front end and passive later in the hands.
2 limpers, SB calls, I wrap with K5o.
Flop is K74.
SB bets into me. This guy will bet any piece of the flop. The two others are classic calling stations. I need to see where I am so I raise. Limpers drop. SB reraises. I reach for my cards to muck but remember that two hands ago this guy 3 bet a JJK flop, checked the other streets and showed AQ. I call.
Turn is a 5.
SB bets, I raise, he calls.
River is a blank. Nothing in the straight zone, no flush.
He bets, I call.
Comments?
KJS
Your play may be okay. The only decision point is whether or not you should dump it on the flop when reraised. If you knew with 100% assurance that you were playing 3 outs then you are only getting 10-to-1 pot odds with 15-to-1 drawing odds so folding would be right. But suppose the guy is reraising on a straight draw? Suppose he is reraising on the bottom two pair which gives you 5 outs instead of 3? It depends upon how well you know your opponent. Against a stranger in a little game like this, my tendency is to call. Against an LOL (Little Old Lady) or a TOM (Tight Old Man) in a medium sized game I would probably fold.
also think about raising on the river. his bet out cries a big king that is afraid to get it checked. but you must know your player as this is an individual thing as many wont raise you back on the turn.
another thing i dont like is the raise to see where im at play because you dont find out where your at. he reraised and you called anyway, which was probably right. the raise was needed to get out the other players. but maybe you should have just folded to his first bet on the flop.
ray
I certainly did raise in order to lose the people behind me as well as see where I was. I see your point about that being a flawed play if I continue to dump more into the pot. Still, in these limits I try to get my info quickly so I can save bets on later streets. Since this is showdown poker I feel like I must find out if I will win a showdown. If I just call I feel like I often don't know and am tempted to go to the river to find out. In this particular case I got some info but other info convinced me to play on. Against most players I would have taken that info alone and folded.
KJS
SB had K7 and won the pot.
Not sure I made any mistakes on the hand, but it was interesting to me because I was moved to play more aggressively when I improved, instead of considering I might not have improved enough. SB's play was consistent with many hands that I beat (AK, KQ, KJ, KT, 74) but also several that I did not (K7, 77, 44). Maybe because the first group is larger I should have raised. Still, he gave me every indication on the flop that he had me and I should have considered that he might still have me after I paired my kicker. I didn't. That is a mistake I see many LL players make and I want to avoid it. That is not to say this is a hand I should have layed down on the turn.
Probably just destined to lose a few bucks in these situations.
KJS
I rarely use the check raise play, and think that I am losing bets because of it, particularly on my big hands. 3-6 Hold 'Em, I have pocket kings UTG, I raise, get 4 callers. Flop comes K-4-7, two hearts. I bet out, one MP caller, LP player raises. I reraise, MP player drops, LP calls. He also calls my turn and river bet, then mucks facedown. Now, the question is this; should I have smooth called the LP player's raise, trapping the MP player for a call, then check-raised the turn? I thought he might be trying to be buying a free card and I wanted to put pressure on flush draws. Any comments appreciated.
Jeff
How do you know you cost yourself any bets? By reraising you got an extra bet from the raiser which compensates you for the "lost bet" from the third player who folded. Furthermore, the third player may have folded whether or not you reraised. In addition, the flop raiser may have been trying for a free card by raising on the cheap street and then hoping to check it back on the expensive street to see the river for free. He would do this if he was on a flush draw. But by playing as you did you charged him the maxiumum. It would have been very bad if you just smooth call on the flop and then it gets checked around on the turn.
I agree with Jim. Check-raising can be used to advantage in some cases in low limit, but the scenario you gave worked out perfectly fine with you betting out.
Check-raise overaggressive players who will try to steal from you often when you show weakness by checking. The check-raise is very powerful IF you know you will be bet into by another player behind you AND particularly if you are with a lot of calling stations...that's the scenario in Low Limit where you add bets because people call 2 bets rather than 1.
Mojay
I would have played it the same way. You announced a big hand with your raise UTG, and for him to raise your flop bet, what could he possibly have? Either A-K, a flush draw, or a smaller set (unless he was a total idiot who called your pre-flop raise with K-7, or would raise with any pair, in which case I want to play with him.). My guess is he raised to try to get a free card, and you made him pay as much as possible to draw.
I pretty much fell in love with the check raise when I was still in my formative stages as a player and used it all the time. I have learned to be more judicous with it as a weapon. One time I usually do not try for the check raise is with two or three of a suit on the flop. This is especially true with a large field. There is just to much risk that you give a free card to a flush draw.
Jeff,
This was the correct play. You've got to put pressure on those flush draws here. Were the board rainbow, I would check and call on the flop, and save the check-raise for the turn. Check-raise is a very powerful tool to get that extra bet or two(or 3 or 4 :-) ) in low-limit HE, but you've got to make sure the board affords you the opprotunity to check-raise. One of my favorite plays is to check-raise with something like A-J with a board of J-7-3 rainbow. In low-limit HE, this SHOULD run out the overcards and leave you with the fish.
spanQy
NO! when you flop a strong hand in a loose game, betting and then reraising will almost always be a bigger money maker than trying for a check-raise on the turn. If you wait till the turn and then check, you may very well be giving out a free card. Then, when you bet the river, someone that would have folded has now caught a miracle card and has you beat, and you will have to call the raise because you have such a strong hand. Get off the idea of waiting till the turn to check-raise, it's a bad habit in loose games. Ironically, most people play this way, so when they make this play, you usually know they have a strong hand and can act accordingly. Sometimes you might want to check-raise the FLOP, but in general, waiting till the turn is a very bad idea that will very often cost you either several bets or possibly the pot.
Dave in Cali
Ok, I play the 2-4 hold em game at Canterbury in Minnesota and the game has a 10% rake $4 max + $1 out of every pot for the jackpot. That is $5 out of any pot over $40. Is this way too much because I think it is killing my chances of winning. I'm a winning player and this past session I noticed while playing with all the same people for about 8 hrs, that everyone was getting pretty low stacked. Not to mention some people toke so damn much. I'm thinking about jumping up limits just to take care of this fact. Thanks for any advice!
Sheck
its high and hard to beat especially if the pots fall at around the max rake size so you dont get any free money thats not raked. shorthanded pots will find both or three players all taking the worst of it and should be avoided by playing only in very loose passive games.
Hi sheck,
I play at canterbury also. I agree that the rake is tough for us low limit guys. If you try the 3-6 and 4-8 games you will find that the play is nearly as bad as at the 2-4 games. I think that if you are breaking even at 2-4 and you are a tight player, especially if you dont defend your small blind too much, you can probably survive and maybe even win a little at 3-6.
If you tip, and nearly everybody at CP tips 1$, your giving up 1 and 1/2 BBs every time you win a pot at 2-4, at 3-6 its only 1 BB, and at 4-8 its 3/4. I figure that I can beat an unraked game against those guys at about 4 BBs per hour, so at those rates, if I win three pots an hour, at 2-4 I'm losing 1/2 BB, at 3-6 I'm winning 1 BB and at 4-8 I'm winning about 1 and 1/2 BBs. I'm ahead slighlty at 2-4 mostly from the first two months canterbury was open and at 3-6 and 4-8 I'm ahead between 2 and 3K each.
One other thing that you might think about if you can afford it, is playing in the thursday night tournaments occasionally. You get a chance to get exposed to the higher limit players, and a lot of the 3-6, 4-8 and 6-12 players, and maybe get a little handle on their style. One lesson at the table from a 15-30 player, could cost a lot, but in the tournament, it only cost you part of $100, and you might make that back in the ring games ( and as a bonus, you might win something in the tournaments.)
Good Luck, see you at the Park,
Bob T.
I played 2-4 in AC, which has the same rake but no jackpot. It can be beaten, but not by a whole lot, and ONLY if the game is very loose with very weak opposition. If the average pot size is not MORE than 40$, you are probably going to have a difficult time beating this game. In AC, I generally tried to play 3-6 or 5-10 (or 5-10 stud, which was my highest money making game), and only played the 2-4 game when it was especially juicy and the other games weren't.
Dave in Cali
playing on paradise at the 2-4 table.
one of my early hands after i sit down
BB with Ks 5c
3 callers in front of me, i check.
Flop comes K Q 5 2 hearts
I bet out, only one caller.
the turn is the 3rd heart, 8
i bet, get raised. whats your action here?
thanks
LF
as the opponent and i have a queen here i may have raised to semi-bluff the pot, i may not win a showdown so a call is bad and i lose if i fold so i would probably have to raise if i thought you scared easy.
as for your action depends on the player and what his position was pre-flop, but thats an oddball flop and what else could he be drawing to?, did he limp in late, is he the kind of guy to play suited cards regardless, he could even have 8-8-8 and is scared if you have a flush?
A call here is one bet and there is seven in the pot, you will check next time round if you do not improve, he bets, will you call again?, you could be dead, you are guessing, two pair is a dangerous hand to defend when your getting bet into but its hard to fold it right?.
I reckon you folded and have worried about it and posted it here for reassurance, i can see no reason why a call is good here at all, maybe a raise is even second best to a fold, you would only be calling hoping to hit your boat and then .. well its just bad. You would be surprised if you won lets put it that way.
Funny that i find hands like these seem to end up a loser for some reason or another, hands that you would have folded normally pre-flop from any position.
Good luck Droopy
Droopy thanks for your comment. you are right, i folded the raise.
after playing at the table it shows me that the raiser is a loose/ aggressive player, raising preflop with 2-2 and bet to the river.. if i would have know that before, i would have called...
thx again
LF
In this sort of heads up situation you can't fold. He could be making a move with a flush draw, maybe he thinks his smaller two pair is good. Perhaps he thinks nows the time to stop slow playing his AK. Who know? There are just two many hands that you are beating that might raise here.
If no improvment on the river, its probably right to check call.
unless he is a rock with no speed, its a call out the hand hand and hope for the best. there are too many hands you can beat that he can have.
Ray,
On Paradise 2-4, he loses 90% of the time. The other player has a flush or a set, it is the rare Paradise 2-4 player who can make a move in this position...the only question in my mind is whether he makes his fullhouse. Of course, beginning at 3-6 and then more and more as we go up the line, calling or re-raisng makes obvious sense.
Mark
Hello everyone, I started playing low-limit poker two months ago and for these two months I have been beating my game at a rate of 3 big bets an hour. However, the last 15 hours have been a total disaster. It seems no matter what I do I keep loosing to garbage. I have lost somewhere around 70 big bets in 15 hours. I know what you might ask about my game being off im some way, but it is not. My question is for those players who have more playing time logged than I do. Specifically, how often can I expect big swings such as the one I am going through now? The losing spell doesn'n bother me, I continue to play my toughest game. But should I be making any adjustments until the storm blows over? And is there any generall time frames for the length of the average losing spell. All comments will be greatly valued.
Fred
There is a general feeling to get really tight is the answer here, but in my experience the cards "come back" in the end. However keep an eye on your game because you could get too loose/tight due to this bad run and beware forcing hands because "you deserve it".
I had a bad run not long since, won about 3 hands in 6 hours, nothing would come right. Then i logged in the next day and won my 1st 4 hands (and i hadnt seen an ace the previous day!) and made it all back, thats cards.
Take a positive and learn more about your opponents during a bad run of cards.
Good luck lol Droopy
That StatKing software will help you with this. Everyone occasionally runs flat for several hundred hours.
You started of running hot, winning at a much higher rate than your long-term average. Now you are going through a period of averaging a lot less than your long-term average. Relax this is to be expected.
Loosing 70 big bets in 15 hours means nothing. All winning players regularly go through such loosing streaks.
Similarly beating a game for three bets an hour for three mounts does not mean much, most loosing players regularly go though similar winning periods.
When this happens to me I find I have not been playing my best game. If you don't mind an analogy this is how I see it.
I am fishing at a river standing on a rock that slopes under the water towards the river. I catch a few fish (winning sessions). I see a nice spot to fish, but I just can't get my bait in the right spot, so I step a little further out on the rock. Now I have one foot in the water (I have loosened up because I have been winning). I catch another fish, but now need to get a little farther out in the water. I now have both feet in the water, the rock is slippery and the current is getting fast. I get just a little farther out (playing even looser because I am way ahead). Suddenly I slip and fall in, and I wonder what happened! I was just fishing after all....
I am guilty of the analogy above, and I think most of us are at times. Or perhaps the other players have your style down? At any rate if you are not winning you have to take measures to control your losses. If you don't you will be watching the game and not playing.
FWIW, I once went five months without posting a win even after I fixed everything I knew how to fix. It was painful, but it went away, and I made all my losses up in about two months time.
Mike
Mike,
I love the fishing analogy, been there, done that, both in poker and fishing.
Good luck,
Bob T.
You can expect losing streaks that last a lot longer than two weeks. You don't have nearly enough time put into the game to make any realistic conclusions about your "beating the game". If you are a new player, even if you have "read the books", you are probably not really beating the game yet. You can always find leaks, even if you are convinced that you are playing your "toughest game", so don't stop looking for places you can improve. Holdem requires a great deal of experience and you haven't got it yet. However, if your opposition is pretty weak, you may actually be playing with a positive expectation sooner than you think, especially if the rake is low. But don't convince yourself that you are a tough player with no room to improve, it's just not true. It won't be true years down the road either, the best and most experienced players are always admitting that they are imperfect and looking to improve their play.
Dave in Cali
very loose/passive 3/6. two big passive fish on my right limp, I limp with Q9h, fish in cut-off limps, button raises (very wide range), blinds fold and all others call. 11 bets. 2s7d10h flop. all check to button, all call his bet. 16 bets. Jd on turn. UTG bets, next player raises. fold or call?
You should fold on the flop. You have pot odds of 14 to 1, but cut off might be going for a check raise so it might be even less than that. You have a non nut runner runner flush, plus runner runner straigts. Your Q out is likely dead. I would give you about three outs, you need odds of al least 16 to 1.
I think it’s a clear fold on the flop.
Turn 2s7dThJd. Bet raise.
This just illustrates how bad your flop call was. You got one of your best turn cards and you still have to fold.
Your only justification for calling the flop is that you can call here. However with pot odds of 11 to 2 and only about seven outs (generously counting Kd and 8d as half outs) : you have to drop it.
Fold. One of your outs will likely make a flush for someone else, leaving you with a three-outer. The pot ain't THAT big.
Dave in Cali
Wild 3-6 game, I'm in MP with 77. The pot is capped before the flop. This is not unusual, there are two raising machines. I got trapped into the flop. We take it capped 7 ways.
Let's call my opponents Average player (AP), solid player (SP) and raising machine (RM).
Flop is K97 two-suited. 3 people check to me, I bet, AP call, SP calls, raising machine raises, people between us fold, I re-raise, now AP caps (?), SP calls, as does RM and myself.
4 of us left, huge pot.
Turn is Q, no flush out.
I bet, AP raises, SP 3 bets it, RM caps.
Do I even consider calling? Was I correct to even come out betting? I almost feel like the pot is big enough to draw for the case 7 because of the action I'd get when others fill up. (And the raising machine is good for $24 with any part of the board).
who knows what they got the pot is huge and your chance of having the current best hand or filling up and winning may not be large at this point but youve got to play to the end with so much money out there. with that much out there couldnt the players be pushing big two pair and a straight or straight and flush draws.
I folded.
My thinking was that it would cost me $18 more this round, and another $24 next round, and I was probably drawing to 1 out. Even if I fill up I think I am up against pocket 9's or kings.
It turns out the player who 3 bet the turn had a straight, and the player just behind me had pocket 9's, so I was drawing for only the case 7. (The turn capper had two pair).
I did have a hard time mucking the cards though, with a huge pile of chips on the table.
In rare cases I think it can be correct to lay down a set. But given your descriptions, they'd have to pry those two sevens out of my cold dead hands.
I don't understand what you mean by, "I almost feel like the pot is big enough to draw for the case 7." Actually you would be drawing for a K,9,Q, or quad 7. that gives you 10 outs, so if you are getting at least 4.5 you should call. You were clearly getting 4.5 to 1 after betting the turn.
If I fill up and someone with pocket 9's or kings fill's up bigger I'm in trouble. With all the action so far should I assume I'm the only one with a set?
Sammy,
You have to call here. The pot is so huge, that folding when you have the chance to full up is a big mistake....much bigger than throwing 2-3 bets into the pot.
Calling before the flop here was the big mistake. It was also magnified by the texture of the board. You're not getting the implied odds here to call 3-4 bets pre-flop with a middle pair. You've just had first-hand experience of what can happen even when you do flop a set. You can't feel very good about it. There is a good chance you might even be up against K-K and drawing dead to 1 card. Next time, fold those middle pairs in a wild game like this.
spanQy
I agree with Ray, I would play it till the river, even though you may be up against a bigger set. Normally, when you are on the butt-end of set-over-set, you are just going to lose a lot of money on that hand. It sucks, but it's GOING to happen. Since RM is the capper, I would call. I don't like your chances of winning here, but they probably justify going to the river.
Dave in Cali
Actually, middle pairs in a game like this are quite good. If you are up against a higher set, well, that sucks- but in this case it would be very likely that one or more players had AK. You might be up against great draws, AA, etc.The fact that in this case you were beat means that you read the situation very well and correctly- with a Q,K, and 9, I would be a little worried too. Would I fold? Probably not in a limit game with a huge pot, but your play turned out to be right. In a loose agressive game, (to parrot the two plus two authors) where you know you will be getting a lot of callers, play pairs. When your hit sets- you have the element of stealth on your side, and you have all the other maniacs or top pair holders to help you build a nice pot. You can put bets in first knowing you'll be raised, call, and then hit em back on the turn. In short- I don't think your pre-flop play was wrong by any stretch- and since you were in the hand and knew the characteristics of the players, your read of the situation was great and very disciplined. I wish I could say I'd make such a laydown, but I probably wouldn't. Well done, and better luck next time. :-)
I'm in a 3/6 online game. It's only slightly loose/passive. 2-4 seeing most flops, and few hands go to the river.
The following hand came up and I just couldn't figure out how I should evaluate what was going on. I have 33 on the button and the cutoff open-limps.
Calling seems right out. Raising might get me heads up, where any pair may win - but that kind of situation is hard to play because you can't tell where you're at. Also, quite important I think, I'm not guarunteed to force out the blinds by raising.
So I folded. I figured it can't be wrong by much, since I'm about even money against 2 overcards.
How should I think about this hand? (If I'm confused about it and don't know how to play it, then perhaps folding is the best adivce for me)
I think it is a raise or fold situation. You want to drive out the blinds and get position over the lone, late limper. You are not getting the right odds to try and flop a set so just limping in is not a good idea. Even when overcards flop and you don't flop a set if you have just one opponent with position you can frequently win anyway by just betting him out of the hand. It is much harder to do this with three opponents. Whether you raise or fold depends upon how much control you have over the cutoff and how you rate his play and his impression of you.
As far as I'm concerned, that is an easy fold. Of course you never just call, and I personally don't like raising. Here's why: First, you might pick up a blind or two, and you don't want to be playing that hand 3 or 4 ways. Also, even if you manage to get the guy heads up, he probably has two cards higher than yours which makes you only a SLIGHT favorite, IF you stick around to the river. At low limits it is hard to bet a guy out of the hand when it's heads up, so you are stuck paying to the river. I think this play has too much variance and only a very small, if any expected value. Regularly raising in this situation will cause swings in your bankroll. There are better places to make your money.
I think folding was reasonable.
Muffin,
What if he open limped with AA or KK as some people do in late position to make sure they get some action? How will you feel when you get three bet before the flop? If your going to play here, you have to know the player well and have an idea what they would limp with and maybe have some indication what the blinds are going to do, 33 against three players for two bets doesn't seem like a great bargain.
I think you made the right play.
good luck,
Bob t.
I like the fold. You want to either be GUARANTEED to be heads up, or you want a multiway pot when you have a small pair. In low limit games, a small pair against a single limper sucks, even if you knew it would be heads up, because you won't have any idea what he limped into the pot with. Also, even if you raised to isolate him, you aren't that likely to get it heads up, especially if the blinds are loose. I don't like raising, but it's definitely better than calling. I think folding here is better still.
Dave in Cali
Howdy,
I am on the button with AQclubs at a loose passive low limit table. There are 3 limpers to me, this time I call, both blinds are in, we see the flop 6 handed. The flop comes J98 no clubs(two spades I believe). The small blind bets and all call to me, I raise to get a free card on the turn, one middle position folds, all others call. The turn is a Q(not spade). It is checked to a middle position player who bets. I know little about this player except that they have shown winning hands at the showdown in the hour I have played with them. The player between me and him calls, I fold.
A player I was kabbitzing with, my Poker Yoda if you will, said that I should probably not have raised if I could not call a bet if one of my cards fell(the Q in this case). He suggested that I should have called, hoping for an A or T. However, I think if the hand warrented a call, then raising to get the free card is correct. Perhaps I should have folded, but was getting 11:1 odds from the pot. Was the raise the correct play?
Thanks,
Wayne
When your hand is worth continuing with, raising might be an option. But as it was, this was not a good flop texture for your hand, since you can't be sure which (if any) cards are an out for you. I think you should have simply folded on the flop.
The problem is that a free card does not help you as much as you think because your overcards complement the board so a queen means that anyone with a ten makes a straight. A ten means that anyone with a queen has the same straight you have so you are only splitting the pot and could even lose it if someone came in on king-queen which is a common limping hand. In fact you will go on to lose big bucks when this happens.
I do not like your overcard call and the problem with raising is that you are charging yourself additional money plus it could get reraised. Furthermore, the turn may get bet anyway with a highly coordinated board like this so I think raising is a bad play all around.
Same response to the flop raise as the other posts. However, I am curious why you didn't raise the pre-flop. AQ suited on the button; with no raises to you, it's unlikely anyone is holding Slick. A raise here, especially in a passive game, will usually assure you the first action on the flop. With that flop I'd probably check on the flop and bet/raise on the turn only if a T or A fell. Otherwise I'd fold the turn.
I've found the pre-flop LP raise to be a huge tool in saving money on bad flops in passive games.
I don't like the raise here. The coordinated board means that you won't drive out many, but you may already be against a hand which will reraise, like a made straight or two pair. The queen is not much of an out for you, do you really want to see one on the turn? An ace might be an out, but any ten is likely to give you at least a two way split pot, therefore your implied odds are lowered and the free card play is not as valuable as it normally would be if you are drawing to the whole pot. I would have just called here.
Dave in Cali
I've been reading Lee Jones Winning low limit holdem and it seems like his SB BB pre-flop play is a little loose. He recommends to call a raise in the BB with A,x K,x any connectors and any suited. I think i have it right. Does anyone disagree with this?
I certainly do. I think that calling 1/2 a bet int he small blind in an unraised pot with Ax and Kx is a losing play.
In general though, it depends on how many people in the pot and who the raise came from. If it was the CO or button then calling may make sense. Against numerous players, calling with connectors and suited may be okay. Jones writes for a very loose California game and I think his recomendation is based on the implied odds of hitting a monster in a big multi-way pot. If your game is not like this, then the play becomes a loser.
Jones' starting hand charts are valuable for the beginner, but you should try to get away from them at some point. Every hand has some particular value at the time given the table conditions, your image, who is in the post, your position, etc. Try not to worry about slavish adherence to any charts but rather try to decide for yourself, "what is this hand worth right now and why?"
Regards,
Paul Talbot
"what is this hand worth right now and why?"
Regards,
Paul Talbot
Excellent Paul. I love your quote.
IMO, play out of the blinds is one of the biggest gray areas in hold em strategy (just look at Mike Caro's recent post here at 2+2 and the discussion that ensues). I think the main reason for this is that the type of the hands you can play for a profit out of the blinds depends mainly on how well you play postflop.
For Jones, he may show a profit by calling a preflop raise with Ax or Kx, but I think for most of us these hands will either be sizable losers or marginal winners at best. Personally, I almost never play these hands in this situation (this depends on who is raising, how many callers there are, etc.,)
Oh well, there's my take on that situation.
-----Jeff
Yes. In fact, that's horrible advice, and the fact that you've noticed this indicates that you're well on your way to becoming a solid player.
Just burn that book. Spots of it aren't bad, but you're not going to learn anything from it that you won't pick up in the original "Hold 'em Poker" by Sklansky. I've heard the later edition has resolved some of the truly ghastly pre-flop advise (such as calling raises cold with Qto on the button, or not raising with AJs on the button when it's limped to you) but there's enough shoddy advise scattered throughout the rest of the text to give it a 'two thumbs down'.
Rick,
After reading your post I whipped out my copy of "Winning Low Limit Hold 'Em because something didn't sound right. In my copy (which is the second edition) Lee recommends playing:
"Any pair, any suited ace, king or queen, any suited connector or suited one-gap." He goes on to say "Avoid unsuited cards unless they're big. Your real danger of defending with something like A7o is that you're up against a better ace, and flopping an ace is only going to cost you money."
This advice seems much sounder than in his previous edition, and nowhere does he mention playing Ax, Kx, or any two suited cards. (I'm assuming that you have the first ediiton of the book, which is notorious for having some horrible advice.)
-----Jeff
2/4 paradise, im on the button, cutoff raises, he has been raising everything, he once 3 bet me with A-10s. I hold A-Q, call, fold or reraise? If I call and he bets into me on a ragged flop whats the play? If I re-raise then bet a ragged flop and he calls, do I bet the turn if another blank hits?
There are two ways to play this given the palyer you describe:
1) assume your hand is better than his and decide to call him to the river (pretend it's no-limit and you have a stack of three and a half bets).
2) assume your hand is better than his and raise and attack, but be ready to back off (but not fold)when you get heat.
Against most raisers in the CO, I would take approach #2, however with an overly aggressive opponent who will play back and three-bet you here, option #1 is not too bad a play because a) you can't figure out where you are at and b) you allow him to think he can push you off with his cheese which means you collect bets through the river when you win and get off the cheapest you can to see it to the end when you lose.
I think #2 is best here though since you can just call him down if he plays back at you.
I don't think you can fold against such a player unless the board is really scary and maybe not even then. If you hit something, make him pay though.
regards,
Paul Talbot
When someone open raises from late position (the cutoff or button) it is usually a steal-raise attempting to steal the blinds. You should reraise with a good hand like ace-queen offsuit. How you play after that depends upon the board and the betting action. In general, you should play aggressively if you are heads-up. Bet the flop if checked to and bet the turn if your opponent just calls depending upon the board. Following through with a bet on fourth in these situations is critical since you allow yourself the chance to win the pot outright and you frequently get a cheap showdown with a good ace which keeps your opponent from bluffing you out at the river.
Jim, I agree with this strategy in this situation (heads up with position and a strong ace).
But how would you play it if you were out of position heads up with the same hand? Would your strategy be the same (bet the flop; if he only calls the flop, bet the turn; take a cheap showdown)?
Playing a somewhat typical loose 3-6 game last night.
I am dealt Kd9d in the BB. There are 5 players in an unraised pot.
Flop is As7d2d. SB bets. I raise. Middle position player calls. Late position calls and SB calls.
Turn is 6c. I check. MP bets. LP calls. I call.
River is 9d. I check. MP bets. LP folds. I raise. MP re-raises. I call and MP shows Ad3d.
The MP seemed to be a reasonable player. When he bet the turn after I checked it seemed most likely he had top pair with a reasonable kicker or two pair. The question is should I check-raise the river or just bet out? He wasn't the type to play any 2 suited cards but he could have had QJs, JTs, QTs.
Any comments appreciated.
Ken Poklitar
The first thing you need to do is to find out why there were two 9d in the deck - one in your hand and one as the river card. (A joke of course). I will assume that the river was a diamond but not the 9.
Your flop raise is not recommended since you have an ordinary draw not a super draw like Jeff had in the post above yours. You do not want to drive out players or increase your cost to see the hand through. However, if you just call then the guy with Ace-little suited will probably raise anyway having top pair and the nut flush draw. You should bet the river and not try to check-raise. If you bet and get raised you should just call.
Both your post and Jeff's indicate an improper use of the check-raise move in my opinion.
I think your check-raise is fine. When he three-bets you have to make the crying call expecting to see the nuts. Would anyone fold here?
The interesting part of the hand, I think is the flop. Why raise here? With five players you want them calling. What do you want to knock out here? Knocking out better Kings is worthless since you can't back into top pair and you definitely want every Ace calling. With five players you are unlikely to get a free card on the turn with your early position. If it were raised behind you I could see a reraise (though I'd only do it with the nut flush draw) in pot with several callers, but I don't like the flop raise in second position here.
regards,
Paul Talbot
I agree in retrospect that the flop raise was wrong. If I had top pair as well as a nice flush draw then I can see it being right but as soon as the turn did not help me I wimped out so there was no point in doing it in the 1st place.
Ken Poklitar
Check-raising the river with a non-nut flush in a multi-way pot is a bad idea, IMO. Betting out is better, and obviously you have to call if you get raised. If you check-raise, you will DEFINITELY get three-bet by someone who holds the nut flush, and face it, virtually EVERYONE plays Axs.
Dave in Cali
Yeah I think it was better to just bet out and call his raise.
Thanks Ken Poklitar
Hi Ken,
I am not afraid of the higher flush draw at the start of a hand like this. In early position, I just bet the flop to keep players in. In late position I make the plus EV raise. I will bet or check call the turn depending on the number of calls I think I will get if I bet. Of course the check call reeks of a draw.
If the later player starts raising, I just call and check call the river. He could be betting two pair or trips or a smaller flush. The higher flush does not come so often that it stops me from being aggressive until I get a warning signal. I win many more of these than I lose.
Alden Chase (tyro)
Not too sure how well I played this. Can't help but get the feeling that I could've gotten more on this hand.
$3-6 Hold Em at Turning Stone in upstate NY
AcJc on the big blind, two MP players limp, button raises, all call.
Flop Qh 10c 4c
All check to button who bets, I originally checked with the intention of check-raising, but I realized that the two people caught between me and the raiser would call one bet and play to the river for one bet on later streets and would almost certainly fold for two (I've been playing with them for a few hours and they are basically unimaginative), so I call to keep them in with me.
Turn Kh
Giving me the nut straight and the nut flush draw. All check to button, he bets. I call by reasoning that I will get overcalls by both the MP players.
River x
This leaves me with the nuts, I can tell that the button is discouraged by the river and might not bet, so I bet out instead of attempting a check-raise. MP players fold, button calls and mucks his cards after the showdown.
I KNOW that I could've gotten more out of the hand (perhaps a check-raise on the flop and/or river?). It seems that I justified my weak play at the time by citing the fact that I was keeping in the MP players who I definitely had beat. The board pairing was the only thing that could potentially have hurt me on the river, but I didn't feel that there was enough action for someone to have a set or two pair that may fill up. I simply felt that I was WAY ahead of everyone...
What do you think? Don't be shy about cutting up my play...You should've heard the names I called myself after sitting down and thinking about this hand after the session!
Thanks in advance for any responses!
-----Jeff
Jeff,
About the only thing I would have done differently is bet out all the way. Of course, I may be a little more agressive than a lot of players, but with the nut-flush draw and the belly-buster straight draw, you've got 13 outs to the nuts. I'd bet out. The button may re-raise you. Same on the turn. Go ahead and bet out. Again, the button may re-raise you.
I agree with spanQy. You should lead at this flop with your super draw. You have 9 flush outs plus 3 non-club straight outs plus an ace overcard which may be 3 more outs. With two cards to come you are almost even money to make the nut flush or the nut straight by the river and you are better than even money to end up with top pair or better. By betting you will get callers with that board. Now if the button raises, your opponents are already tied in for one bet. You can smooth-call or 3-bet then follow through with a bet on fourth. I think attempting a check-raise move in this situation is a mistake.
You should have lead bet, hoping to trap the field with their goofy 1-pair-gutshot-draw hands. If the button flopped anything he'll perhaps raise, which gives YOU a chance to... well, you get the point. But rememeber-- at some point in a hand, anytime you've got a monster, you've GOT to go out looking to find someone with a second best hand that they like. That's the only way to make any real money with a big hand. By checking and calling you're not giving yourself an opportunity to do this.
I think you had a strong enough hand to bet the flop, feeling pretty confident that the button would raise, which would have accomplished the same thing as you were originally trying to do, which was raise your big draw for value. Let the button do it for you. On the turn and river, I can't see that your play was so terrible, but you could have bet the turn, especially if you had already bet the flop and gotten raised. Now your turn bet is a strong semi-bluff, and your opponents are much more likely to fold and allow you to win the pot outright.
Dave in Cali
Thanks for your response Dave, but I think I might be missing something. In your post you said
"On the turn and river, I can't see that your play was so terrible, but you could have bet the turn, especially if you had already bet the flop and gotten raised. Now your turn bet is a strong semi-bluff, and your opponents are much more likely to fold and allow you to win the pot outright."
My question is: how could my bet on the turn be a semi-bluff if I have the nuts and am not vulnerable to many draws (the board pairing is my only fear)?? I always understood that a semi-bluff is when you bet with a hand that you don't figure to be the best at the time. This wasn't the case, so maybe I'm missing part of the definition of a semi-bluff...
Thanks again for responding (I really appreciate it when a player of your caliber answers questions here on 2+2)
-----Jeff
Sorry Jeff, I misread the board. My comment was meant for cases when you bet the flop and gotten raised, then you catch a blank on the turn. When you bet the flop and get raised, and then you just call, the raiser usually thinks he is ahead. But then if you bet the turn again, the raiser might think twice, especially if they are the kind of player who can lay down a hand like top pair with a decent kicker.
You are right, your bet in this case was a value bet not a semi-bluff.
It is because you said that the MP players were unimaginative that I think it would be a good idea to bet out on the flop. If you had some reason to suspect that the first player to act after you would raise and shut everyone out (along with the bets you need to have in the pot to make your draw worthwhile), then I wouldn't bet out.
Further to this, if the button is one you would suspect to raise pre-flop with AK, then you wouldn't want to give him a free card with which to draw inside to the nuts. Go ahead and bet out on the flop.
Not sure how I played this one. Definitely a case of sticking with a hand because of the size of the pot. I want to do this when its correct, but having a hard time determining when that is.
Game is 4-8 at Diamond L'ils outside Seattle. Game has been alternately loose passive and tight semi-aggressive. There has been about 23-30 people spread on 3 tables all night so the characters and characteristics have been changing quite a bit.
Two early limpers, button raises. I call in SB with KcJc, BB calls. This is the button's first hand. 5 players see the flop. The pot is $40.
The flop is JT3, rainbow, no clubs. I bet out, hoping to get a read on the button's hand and give the limpers and BB a chance to fold overcards, thinking the button might not bet with AK or AQ or 99 or lower pair here. BB drops, UTG limper calls, other limper drops, button raises, we both call. (Should I just fold here?)
Three of us see the turn, there is $64 in the pot.
Turn is Q. No flush possible, board is JT3Q. I have middle pair but an openender as well. If button has AK I am drawing for 1/2 the pot. I could easily be up against an overpair, set of queens, tens or jacks too. Unfortunately, this is the button's first hand so I know nothing of his raising standards. I check, limper checks, button bets, we both call. (Should I even call?)
Three of us to the river, pot is $88. River is a 5. Final board is JT3Q5, rainbow. I have second pair, King kicker. I check, limper checks, button bets. The pot is $96. I have 12:1 on my call. (Are there enough hands I can beat to call? I lose to AA, AK, KK, QQ, QJ, AQ, AJ, TT. I beat underpairs, AT, and a pure bluff, but there are few rational pre-flop raising hands in that category.)
I call, limper (who is a good player) thinks for a good minute and folds.
Results later.
KJS
I would likely muck on the turn. The pre-flop raiser can easily have AK (in which case you're doomed), KK (same story) KQs (he raises the flop with his open ender), a set (which you have draws against but are currently behind of), AJs (see the set), AQ (again, see the set). In short, you are either behind or probably drawing for half the pot. And, the limper could easily have a K as well. You are going to dump 8 bucks in an 88 dollar pot, which means you're getting 11:1 on a 5:1 shot. Not bad, but the fact that one player could have you drawing for half the pot, while the OTHER player has you beat, makes this a close but necessary fold IMO.
I forgot you had a pair (the J's). Since you now have 10 outs to what MIGHT me a winning hand, I'd probably peel. On the river, when you don't improve, well... I don't know. At that point you just have to play poker. But I'd probably call against a player I knew nothing about.
PREFLOP: After 2 limpers, and a button raise, I would fold KJs in the small blind. While the typical player might liberally raise a single limper, raising 2 limpers usually earmarks the button for a quality hand. Much of the suited equity is diminished by having to act first, and by having the preflop aggressor to your immediate right. That being said, you do have a quality hand, and calling can not be far from wrong; however, deciding to play puts you in a precarious situation.
FLOP: The flop certainly looks good for you, giving you top pair great kicker. Given the bloated pot and number of opponents, I believe you should do whatever it takes to increase your chance of winning the pot. In this case, I would attempt to check raise the button. Most player will bet out with AK or AQ (the buttons most likely holdings), but if this button does not, then you know enough about your opponents hand to make the correct decision on later streets. Given that you bet out and were raised, the pot is large enough to call a single SB.
TURN: On the surface the Q seems to help your hand as it gives you an open ender, but in reality, it is devastating. Virtually any chance that you have the best hand is gone, and it is unclear how many outs you actually have (when deciding your outs, you must take into account that there is a limper who may be drawing to your outs also). At this point I would be so confused figuring my outs that I would take a look at the pot, pick up my chips, give them a kiss, and fling them into the pot. Calling can never be far from wrong in a big pot, right? :)
RIVER: The pot is big, but you have virtually no chance of winning. While it would seem that you have a clear fold, I believe that the size of the pot combined with getting information about a player whom you have never played with, and is now sitting to your immediate right makes this a clear call.
Great post D. Thanks as always.
In retrospect, I think the checkraise on the flop is clearly correct. At the lowest game, I usually play if-your-gonna-play-then-bet type poker but I think I should have made an exception here. I can see how that would have increased my chances on the flop and help me win on a later street. Plus I could put pressure on the people between me and the button who might hold overcards.
Turns out I did win anyway. The button was way overplaying a measley 88.
Nice to win $100 on second pair but not sure I want to make it a habit.
KJS
PS. Shooting for another Vegas trip in late September. We'll let you know closer to the date.
Here's a hand that I'm not sure if my thinking was good or if it is instructional at all, but I wanted to solicit comments. Can I learn much of anything from this hand?
Game is very loose and kind of passive. I limp after 2 from the middle with A-10s. Seven see an A-9-7 rainbow flop (none of my suit). BB bets, next folds, next calls, I raise, 3 call 2 cold behind, BB re-raises and I fold. Everyone else calls.
The cold calls behind unnerved me. I just figured that if I wasn't playing a dominated hand before the flop, then the 2 cards below T increased the likelihood of 2 pairs out there -- that any turn J or below would either make a straight or hit someone's kicker... I was fairly certain (and correct) that the first cold caller and the SB had an A. There were so many others that I figured at least one of them had a legitimate draw...
Anyway. Five play for a bet on the turn 4. And 2 call after a T hits on the river. SB's A-5 gets out-kicked by one of the cold callers A-6. "Sorry, his six plays, sir." I don't know what anyone else held. Very nice pot. I was ahead when I folded and the T was clean.
Am I just too damn weak? I'm not sure whether my play is reasonable and the kooky hand says nothing important, or whether it shows a leak. One other thing, if the situation were the same, but my raise would have got me the button, I would have stayed. Even though the pot was large, I'm still shading towards thinking I did the right thing (even in a goofy game)... ?
With 18-1 odds here a fold is pretty hard to do, but I think that it may be justified. Not because of the three bet, but as you stated, because of the three cold callers. That just screams out slow play to me. They couldn't all be on a draw. I could see the three-bet with a draw after all those callers, but the cold calls indicate a) a decent A, b) a draw or c) two pair or better.
The problem here is also positional. If you call here you really can't call a bet on the turn because of the likelihood of a raise behind you (and the chance you are likely beat already).
Even if you improve, another A may mean you are still outkicked and a T could still lose to a set or make someone a straight. If you had a backdoor flush draw it would be worth calling, but I don't see how the turn could bring you a card that would make you confident in your hand. The overlay you are getting on odds even at just three outs probably isn't enough for all the times you make your hand here and still lose.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
What the hell would they be slowplaying! ROFL! AA 99 77?
Sure dude sure. Whatever. God what a rock! You sound like you had a read on the game...was it an out of character re-raise from the BB? You gotta call the bet here on the flop.
You say someone may have a legitimate draw, and this prevented you from calling? Or at least encouraged you not to call? So what if they have legit draws? Make 'em pay, lose when it hits, get paid off when it doesn't. You have a legit draw too you know, TOP PAIR! Turn x river x. That's your tech.
What if 3 other players had 8T for the open ender? You fold your top pair?
It's poker man.
Miles...So What.
I had a strong read (that turned out to be correct) that 2 people had an A. I was as close to positive as I can get that the cold caller (the guy who scooped had an A).
The key question I think is: Is my kicker good enough of the time/is it clean enough of the time? I'm obviously getting big odds from the pot. Do I have an overlay here against the (un)likelihood of those two events? I don't know whether this is close or easy -- that's why I ask. If it is really close, than my fold couldn't be too bad, but I'd like to know...
True, some percentage of the time 3 people might have T-8, (in which case I can't catch a T, but oh well) -- yet there are still two others to account for -- I'm sure you'll have no problem putting them on hands I can beat as well.
I'm an idiot. I just want to know if there is something I can learn from this hand or not...
You are definately not and idiot. There are many who would cap here with out thinking, or call down with no further thought to the hand. Not to say these aren't the correct plays tho. It is a good situation to discuss and I am sorry if I belittled you. I just think not calling here is an easy to spot mistake.
Rather than calling, as Erwin suggests, I think you're better off capping the flop here. That way if anyone plays back at you on the turn you are in massive trouble and can get out. It's a difficult hand though. I would feel a lot happier if I had a backdoor flush or something to help prop up my top pair and backdoor straight.
Since there was no raise preflop you can assume you have the best ace a lot of the time, but with the BB raising it becomes less clear.
This is an example of why you would much rather sit in passive games than aggressive games. This is a more important distinction in game selection than loose/tight.
Chris
n/t
4 bets not a cap. I don't think you have paid enough attention to my positional problem. I got people calling cold behind me. I simply can't take control of the hand -- the only reason to raise at this point would be if I wanted more money in the pot.
It's probably not an issue at a table like you describe, but another thought here is your image. To some, this laydown may look weak and will entice them to be overly agressive to you on future hands. Thsi could be both good or bad for you...
Paul Talbot
IMO folding was the right thing to do. In the games I play in, 9 times out of 10 you will be holding a losing hand in this situation, and the one time you fold a winner you've got to sit there and suck it up.
I've always felt that if you never ever fold a winning hand you're playing too loosely, so take that for what it's worth.
-----Jeff
Why would you fold to a three-bet? He could just as easily be betting a 4 flush for value as A9 or A7. I would go ahead and call here, check call the turn, and then bet out again when the ten hits the river. Though you could be beat already, you appear to be in a weak game where people will raise with a dominated hand.
MD
n/t
Hes not folding because of the 3-bet. He's folding because of the coldcallers. If the coldcallers weren't there, the whole situation would be different...
-----Jeff
I would fold as you did. If you can't make this fold don't play ATs btf.
I think you can fold this hand and did, so it will make you money in the long run in a game like this.
Derrick
I think that you explained your own leak with your post. You gave a bunch of weak players making terrible plays way, way too much credit. I hate to say it, but I would have probably gone to the river, even if it meant losing several more big bets than you did. The time to bail against moronic players is the turn, not the flop, when you KNOW you are most likely ahead. Now, when the turn comes, and there is a bet and a raise, you can safely assume that top pair is no good anymore. But assuming this on the flop is a great way to "make a great laydown" that costs you a big pot. I generally play in very loose games against mostly bad players. Notice you do not see me posting "I made a great laydown" very often….
Dave in Cali
So if the turn of 4 is bet in front of you and the raise comes behind you, you lay your hand down last to act on the turn?
It often depends on the players, but here's an example from last night.
I had top pair, jacks, and bet the flop. Two players called who ALWAYS slowplay ANY big hand, either till the turn or river. My flop bet is raised by one of them, pretty clueless individual. The other calls and I reraise, he caps. It doesn't mean squat till the turn, as he will raise the flop with draws or weak hands. The turn comes and I bet to avoid giving free cards, the first calls and the second raises, I have picked up a gutshot to go with my top pair, good kicker, so I call, but then the other one limp-reraises. I fold. I knew she had a set of jacks at that point, and I was right. The other dude didn't even have me beat when he capped it.
So many times you lay it down, even if last to act, as long as you know you are drawing very slim or dead. It's just not always apparent on the flop whether you are against a real hand or not, but on the turn it's usually pretty clear.
Dave in Cali
Looks like a horrible fold in the story you tell given the overlay you have against making a gut shot.
In any case, thanks for your comments.
Sorry, I forgot to mention that there was a two-flush on board from the flop. In either case, I figured I was drawing very slim, and if I didn't hit the straight, I would wind up having to call because of pot odds on the river. I may have had just barely enough to call, but I don't like chasing gutshots on the turn, and my straight would not have been the nuts anyway. The other player could have had anything, and probably would have had one at least one of my outs in his hand anyway, so I thought the fold was clear. However, if I had a clean gutshot and no reason to believe my outs were dead, then you would be right, that would have been a horrible fold. thanks for the comments.
Dave in Cali
I've read multiple times that LLHE is especially susceptible to fluctuations in bankroll, but I'm not convinced. The games I play in are loose and passive, and I can't really envision the huge swings that are referred to all the time. In the game I play, one is almost guaranteed to make money by having good hand selection skills and good knowledge of odds and basic strategy. More advanced knowledge such as the ability to read hands and effectively use semi-bluffs and check raises will add to your win rate, but by no means are they required.
Is my game unusually safe because of its passivity, or is this typical? Am I being crazy and overconfident by thinking that I won't experience huge swings in my bakroll? (Obviously I expect some swings, but not as large as some say there typically is in LLHE) What do you think?
Thanks in advance for any responses!
-----Jeff
How long have you been playing? I only ask because if you haven't been playing for at least a couple years than it's entirely possible that you haven't been taken on THE RIDE yet. But trust me, it will happen. You don't know when, and you sure as hell won't know why, but BELIEVE ME; there's a reason why many great players, who pick only very soft games to play in, require upwards of a 1000 BB bankroll to insure they won't go broke.
Jeff, you make no mention of how long you've played. But simply put, the edge you have is not enormous compared to the rake except in the very best of games you find yourself in at the low limits. And even in those wildly juicy games that you may find yourself in some percentage of the time you play hold'em, there is an enormous amount of luck in the short term (and the short term can last a long time!). Combine the luck factor with the fact that some (maybe even a good deal) of the time you will probably be seated at tables where your edge is relatively small compared to the rake and you should see the problem.
One thing that may happen to you as well is that you might play poorly... in which case you might have no edge at all for stretches of time...
Anyway -- best of luck.
I read the other posts, and have a slightly different slant. To a large part your 'normal' variance is determined by your playing style. The games you sit in, hands you play, and risk you take determine a large portion of your 'normal' variance. Read and heed the previous posts, as they know of which they speak!
Jeff
In extremely passive games, your bankroll is not going to be subjected to MAJOR swings, even if the games are loose. When those major swings occur is when you are in loose AGGRESSIVE games. Trust me, I play in loose aggressive games all the time, that's why I always buy into 3-6 with a kill for 200$, with another 200$ ready to put into action should I have a few losing hands. Having a 300$ swing within a single session is not at all uncommon. However, if the game happens to be very passive, with little pre-flop raising, and usually only one or two flop bets and one turn and river bet, then those big swings are very rare, and one rack would probably be enough. Don't underestimate the possible swings you can take though, even in a relatively passive game. And if you are playing in a loose aggressive game, EXPECT TO TAKE BIG SWINGS, BECAUSE IT WILL HAPPEN.
As far as your specific situation goes, if the game is consistently easy enough, you can pretty consistently win at it, but you will still take losses now and then. I found the 2-4 games in atlantic city to be extremely easy to beat, even with the 10% to 4$ rake. I rarely took a loss playing in it. I usually won a small amount, say between 40-80$, for a reasonable session. However, the swings were still large enough to where I was not making much of an hourly rate, I was certainly much better off going to work. The primary reason for this was the fact that the games were very loose-passive, the easiest games to beat. Any experienced player who cannot beat a loose passive game has simply not learned how to make the proper adjustments for these games.
Sometimes I hear higher limit players complaining how loose games can't be beat. They blame it on low limits, and the wacky hands that people take to the river. These complainers are crazy, loose games are the best ones to play in. You WANT them to take wacky hands to the river, even though it means that you will sometimes get drawn out on several times in a session and wind up losing for the day. However, if you play super-tight, and only play AA-KK and AK, like it's the late stages of a tournament, you will lose your ASS. That's because loose players will still come into the pot against you in droves, you will have the best hand, but one of them will have the best draw, and you will be losing equity to the hand with the best draw due to all the weak draws in the pot. Top-pair type hands don't do well in these games, but drawing hands sure do. Play any suited ace, any pair, and suited connectors often, avoid hands like KTo and the like. In a loose passive game, I would rather have QsJs or 55 than AKo or AQo. Pairs are big money makers, especially big pairs, but this is mostly due to set value. The big pairs sometimes stand up on their own, which gives them additional value. But get ready to have your aces cracked if you don't flop a set….
loose 4-8 game (with the 1-2 blind structure).. I'm in the BB with Kd 9d.
Drunk Italian Lady (DIL) to my left limps under the gun.. 4 call to the button, Drunk Old Guy (DOG).. he raises it up (big surprise, he's been doing that with all sorts of trash) and he's short stacked. Small blind folds.. I ponder the odds and call the $4 raise. Everyone else calls.
Flop comes 4d Jd 2s. Not bad. I check.. DIL bets (no surprise there, she's bet/raised crap all night also).. Ancient Loose Lady (ALL) calls, 2 others call.. DOG raises it up. I cold call the $8.. everyone else calls. Big pot.
Turn comes 7 of diamonds, I see the DOG has about $20 in front of him.. I bet out.. DIL calls.. ALL calls.. the 2 inbetween have had enuf, they drop.. DOG raises saying "I'm 1/2 way in already..." I re-raise it to $24, DIL seems to have a very hard time laying down her hand... but does fold. The ALL has to be explained that now she owes $16 more.. she doesn't look happy about it but puts the money in. DOG looks a bit unhappy as he puts in his last $4. Huge Pot.
The DIL to my left says "my card better not come!"..
River.. 3d, DIL throws up her hands in disgust. I can only assume thats what she was looking for. Foolishly I assumed she had folded the ace of diamonds.
I know the ALL will call with many weak hands here, so I bet. She then looks up and says "raise". Now it's my turn to be unhappy and put the extra $8 in.. I'm 95% sure I'm beaten, but the pot is near $200.
She turns over Ad 3c for the runner runner miracle.
I quietly place my hand in the muck as the DOG turns over Qd Td and furiously demanded to see my hand. My hand was already in the muck however, and the dealer said he could not take it back out. DOG had already said before the hand that he was going to go play slots if he lost his latest rebuy.. so I did not accomodate him by turning the cards over. Besides, I always thought it was considered poor etiquette to ask to see the losers hand. Even so, I would have done it gladly if it had kept the DOG playing.
DOG is a local regular at this casino and by the time I was done with the 8 hr session, I saw him at another table with 2 racks of chips. If I hadn't already decided to go home I would have sat down at that table for another go at it.
Should I have shown him my hand to stay "friendly" with him? Was I being rude by quietly mucking and blowing it off, preparing for the next hand?
Later in the session, another guy was short stacked.. raised his pocket kings on the BB.. I was already in for a limp with my red pocket tens and called (there were 7 or 8 callers this hand too). I flopped top set but the board 3 flushed with clubs. KK guy checked, it was bet by obvious-flush-guy (OFG) and I raised it, putting KK guy all-in. DIL was involved in this hand too and the OFG was almost all-in after he 3-bet the flop. I decided to play the turn very fast, trying to build a side pot for me and DIL, but she folded the $18 raise.. I could have saved some money and just tried to draw to my set, and I ended up playing it rather poorly, losing another big pot when the board failed to pair on the river. As I was again quietly mucking my hand, the KK guy yelled at me "show the damn hand".. I wondered if there was some kind of etiquette I was breaking now.. can't someone quietly muck their hand when they've lost a big pot? I decided to show the hand this time.. as if I needed any more future action ;) In my embarrassment I tried to defend myself in that I was trying for a side-pot if my draw didn't hit.
The times I play are usually late at night, and often there are only 1 or 2 hold em tables going, so table selection isn't an issue most times I'm there. Should I care about being nice to the bad players beyond what is normally expected? (showing losing hands etc) I want to have a care-free image and have the drunks want to play at my table, but often there isn't a choice in games.
Should I feel obligated to show losing hands? Are the lesser players going to hate me anyways because I take their money more often than not? Most of my experience has been online, and the muck is automatic.. nobody questions it.
Comments?
One of the reasons it seems more legitimate for somebody to ask to see your hand in these two instances is simply that the pots were huge and you helped make it that way.
So asking to see your hand is fair because they want to make sure you weren't betting up the pot with nothing. Why would you bet up the pot with nothing, you ask? Collusion. So having you show your hand is a way for other players to a) feel more comfortable that you are not colluding and b) understand what you were thinking (curiosity).
BTW...why argue your actions on the 2nd hand? By revealing your logic, you let everyone else know how seriously you are taking the game and how thorough your thought process is, and that's no good. As Mike Caro has said, "I see no advantage in letting other players know you are a good player."
Mojay
Why would you bet up the pot with nothing, you ask? Collusion
Both hands there was at least 1 person all-in. Pretty sad if someone thinks I'm trying to push an all-in drunk off a hand. Obviously the only reason they wanted to see my cards was to satisfy their own curiosity.
BTW...why argue your actions on the 2nd hand? By revealing your logic, you let everyone else know how seriously you are taking the game and how thorough your thought process is
This is why I want to just muck my hands instead of revealing them (and letting people see how I play).
Well I was caught in a moment of embarrassment. I played poorly and wasted 3 1/2 BB's by trying to get a side pot that may have netted me only 1 or 2 BB's at best. I had made an error and tried to explain why I had put so many bets in on the turn when I was obviously playing from behind.
Then again if the board pairs on the river, I'm stackin chips for the next round or so.. heh. I hadn't made too many mistakes playing.. but during these 2 hands I had for sure.
It seems that on both hands the person who wanted to see the hands was the winner, unless I misread so Collusion wouldn't be the reason. I have been at games where people have asked to see the mucked hands. Usually they do not get turned over. It is used as a meathod to gain information as to the play of your opponents, somthing I don't want them to know unless you might want to get caught on a bluff for later action.
If your failing to voluntarily show your hand is causing you to lose popularity with the locals, AND they are now playing better against you because of this, then you should show it. If they are playing WORSE against you because of this, then you should continue to muck it and put them further on tilt. The way I handle it is that if I have the loser, I generally throw it face down quietly. If someone wants to see it and says so ahead of time, I gladly show it. Once in a while I show it anyway, even though I usually muck. Once it is in the muck, too bad for whomever didn't speak up, I won't say anything, even if someone bitches. If the locals are constantly asking to see your hand, you should constantly ask to see theirs, at least until they get the hint and shut the hell up already. I find that local players are much more likely to do this than tourists, probably because they think they are stupendous players and need to know how their opponents play. (I also find that as a gross generalization, locals are also much less fun and do much less good for the overall quality of the game. there are some exceptions of course…). If someone constantly asks to see my hand, I will specifically single them out for the same treatment, but ignore any of their opponents who might be in a hand with them. They usually get the picture after a few trials and quit asking. Personally, if someone mucks, I just don't care what they had, it's time to get the deck re-shuffled and play a new hand.
Dave in Cali
Hand 1.
I am in the BB with TT. Middle player calls, cut off calls, I just check. My feeling is that I get more value from disguising my hand at this point.
Flop is 358 no suit. Check around to the cutoff who bets, I checkraise, middle player calls, CO calls.
Turn is a Q, still rainbow. I bet, middle calls, CO folds.
River is a deuce. I bet, get called, am shown QJs.
Hand 2. I am in BB with 89d. Early player opens, middle player raises (aggressive player), button calls SB folds, rest call.
Flop is 7TJ, with 2 spades including Js. I bet out, early player calls, original raiser calls (which surprised me) button calls.
Turn is a J. I bet, early folds, agressive raises. I am now confused. This does not feel right if he has an overpair. Overcards suited spades? Set of Jacks?
I call rather then reraise, then check-call the river (a small non-spade) thinking that if he does have either of these hands I will induce a bluff bet. I get shown quad Jacks.
And so it goes.
Comments.
On hand #1, I would have not bet the river. He may have then bet it, and I would have called, so I don't know if I would have saved any money.
On hand #2, I would have reraised the turn, and check called the river (thus losing more than you). I think the person with the J's should have raised the flop with his top set. There are 2 spades and 2 broadway cards on board. He is more often then not ahead, but he will get drawn out on if he plays like this too often. I also think had he raised you, you would have thought he had an overpair and maybe even check raised him on the turn... at the very least you would have bet into him... don't you think?
Derrick
"so I don't know if I would have saved any money."
The thing is, you can induce a bluff. What hand is calling your bet here that doesn't beat an under pair to the Q? Fair enough, I have seen King hi call downs though.
"He is more often then not ahead, but he will get drawn out on if he plays like this too often."
He won't actually get drawn out on more, he will just make more money when he doesn't get drawn out on, thus increasing his profit over his life....
Miles... So What.
I think your play in hand two was fine. Sometimes there is just a better hand out there. Nothing you can do after the flop is going to get him off his set. He caught one of his outs (a jack or pair on the board). It seems like you made a good read and saved yourself some bets (after all, you did flop the nut straight). You have to call him down.
I disagree with your play on the first hand. You should have raised preflop. Your tens are strong (and almost certainly the strongest hand at that point). In ll, players will play bad aces and faces. You want to get those hands out of there. QJs probably would have stuck around for the flop still, but might have been a little more leery about calling two cold (which I still don't know why he did). Once the overcard hits and you still get called you either beat an A8 or lost to a queen. Raise it preflop.
Just my two cents.
C
*
This is one of those hands that I wonder if I didn't let a bet get away from me.
4-8 game.
EP limps, MP raises,
I have two red Jacks on the button, and I decide to make it three bets to try and eliminate the blinds, BB calls, EP calls, and MP caps it. Everybody calls (15 1/2 small bets in the pot. ($5 rake))
Flop 9H - 8S - 2C
BB checks, EP bets, MP calls, I raise, BB folds, EP and MP call. (21 1/2 small bets)
Turn 10D
Both check, I bet, EP calls with his chips beating mine into the pot, MP folds.
(11 1/2 Big bets)
River 10S
He checked, I thought if he was so eager to call, maybe he had made two pair on the turn and now he was looking to check raise. I checked, and he turned over KS, 9S. So he was on a 5 outer, and it was an easy call because the pot was already large. I'm certain that if I had bet, he would have called me and I would have won one more bet. When a running pair comes, should you just pretend that it isn't there, and bet the river just as if it was the turn?
I think that the hand is interesting, because if the preflop action was not so vigorous, then it might be more likely that his hand was good on the end, but when he's getting 20 to 1 on his call on the flop, and 10 to 1 on his call on the turn, it really doesn't say much about the quality of his hand, and it makes it more likely that he's in there with some kind of draw, and it makes it more likely that its right to bet on the end.
The other interesting thing is that the preflop capper was getting 11 1/2 to one on a call on the turn, and he folded his hand. If he had overcards, it was certainly right for him to continue at that point. and if he was still in the pot, I think that it would be harder for me to bet on the end, but after he checked the flop and the turn, I was pretty sure I was ahead of him. So the other question is, did he cap it with a small pair, but most players who do that, would continue to lead after the flop, or did he fold overcards with a correct draw?
thanks for your responses, good luck,
Bob t.
P.S. before you all ask, the game is at Canterbury Park.
Typical 3-6 game. I get QQ UTG.
Preflop: I limp, EP limp, MP1 limp, MP2 limp, SB calls, BB checks. 6 of us take the flop, $18 pot.
Flop: 9c Tc Jd
Blinds check, I bet, EP folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, SB folds, BB calls. 4 of us see the turn, $30 pot.
Turn: 9c Tc Jd 2h
BB checks, I bet, MP1 raises, MP2 cold calls, BB cold calls, I call. Still 4 of us, $78 pot.
River: 9c Tc Jd 2h 4s
BB checks, I check, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, BB folds, I fold.
Was I correct to fold on the river even though I was getting $90 to call $6 more? Is there any way I have MP1 beat when he raised the turn with the 2h hitting? He must have been slow-playing the flop right?
Thoughts?
I presume you limped with the intention of 3-betting if raised.
Obviously, it's thin, but I'd always call on the end against an unknown player. I'm loathe to put someone on the nuts just because they play hard at an unraised pot. In this case, I'd call because
(1) he has no reason to think he's against an overpair, which would make him overvalue flopped pairs and more likely to bluff;
(2) players will sometimes slowplay big draws on the flop (e.g., KT in this situation), not wanting to lose customers, but go aggressive on the turn if they miss;
(3) he might slowplay AJ or even KJ here;
(4) you have 2 blockers for most straights; and
(5) with a flopped straight and two downstream callers, they sometimes wait until the river.
Sammy,
You must raise pre-flop! You don't want to play QQ against 6 people. You may have let KQ in for one bet and they came back to beat you. That is why you raise with QQ. If they want to try to beat you, fine but make them pay 2 bets for the chance.
I would consider checkraising the flop here. You have a good hand and should make single K and flush draws pay the max here. If you are up against KQ you might get reraised and you can pretty safely fold on the turn.
The turn play does look like a slowplay. Still, if you suspect a set or even two pair you have quite a few outs. KQ is really the only had you are way behind to and you have some slim odds to catch up there. How tricky is this player? If they are a rock, folding is OK, but if they are prone to making a move I would call them down. Then I would check the river. If he bets again and gets called a fold is correct. If the player behind him folds, then you have a tough decision.
If they I would have guessed MP2 had clubs, until I read that they called the river. I am guessing one had KQ and the other JT. Both hands you might not have to play against if you raise UTG with QQ.
KJS
So the first hand I sit down is straddled and blind raised. Its going to be a rocky ride tonight.
About an hour into the session, I pick up a nice looking hand, AsJs. Its raised UTG. UTG is not a GOOD player, but by this tables standards, he's Johnny Chan, ok? Two people cold call to me, and I cold call, to see three others behind me cold call, and 7 of us see the flop for 2 SB each.
(14SB in the pot)
Flop Ks 10d 3s
Not a bad flop, overcard, gutshot, and nut flush draw. I decide I like this flop. UTG bets out, one fold, one call, and I raise. All three call behind me and UTG reraises. I cap it and 6 of us see the turn for 4 SB each (now 28SB in the pot).
My reason for raising and capping the flop was mainly for value; I have 12 pristine outs to the nuts, so I will make my hand on the next card one in four times. With 5 other players in, I love these odds, so Im getting as much as I can in there.
Turn: Qh
Giving me the coconuts. UTG bets out again, a caller, and I raise, with the field calling me, including UTG who finally slows down (to my dismay!).
Now, my question is for you from both the perspective of myself and UTG. UTG has KK, so one of the two of us will win the hand, barring a 45-1 miracle on the river, assuming anyone even has a set (which I later find out they do not); one was on lesser spades, two were on open ended straights, one was on a dry king.
Lets say our hands are face up. Should he reraise the turn, given that he will fill up on the river 1/4.5 times? If you are UTG, do you reraise me here? I thought his play was a bit weak, as the only hand I can raise him with on the turn is AJ, and its unlikely I would cap the flop with a mere gutshot. But continued aggression cowed him into submission (consarn it!).
Also, let's say I don't improve on the turn (ie, imagine the turn is the 2h) and he bets into me. Should I raise/cap him again on the turn?
For the results oriented, the river was the 7c, and I dragged a big pot (>30BB).
If you don't think people would cap it with a gutshot (let alone nut flush AND gutshot) then you have't played enough at Paradise :)
Apart from that nice hand.
If I was the player with kk I wouldn't reraise the turn...I'd be calling and making sure the people with nothing also called....and hoping like hell the board pairs because I wouldn't be thinking im ahead here.
Wardy
I think that your flop play was fine, you have 12 outs to the nuts and five players, cap it every time.
On the turn…. Had a blank come, I would not raise him again, because NOW you are almost certainly going to be reraised (because it would be apparent to him that he still had the best hand, or the nuts, if the blank was lower than nine and not a spade). His reraise would likely drop some of your callers, and cut down on your drawing odds and implied odds. Even though you would of course call the reraise, I would go ahead and just call, because you are getting BETTER drawing odds if you are only paying one bet, plus you are getting overcalls. Remember, when you are in a multiway pot, and you have the best DRAW, you are sucking equity away from the player with the best hand. The other players are drawing dead or almost dead to your hand if you hit, not to mention the player with KK.
Now as to why KK slowed down, well, when you capped the flop, he might have put you on a set, but when you then raised him on the turn after he bet into you, it's not inconceivable that he might have put you on AsJs. However, if I was the one with KK, I would have lost more money on the hand than he did….
Dave in Cali
I go down to the cardroom last night, to play a little Holdem and to have some dinner. As soon as I get there, they start up a 3-6 kill game. Seven players sit in it, we draw for the button, and I wind up in the SB. The first hand I chop, but the next hand I am on the button and get AcKd. All fold and I raise, hoping to make it look like I am on a bind steal. The BB calls and the flop is all clubs. I win the pot when a fourth club comes. Up about 25$. OK, OK, things are good for the first five minutes. The game loses one and I get a pocket pair which holds up heads up, I'm up about 45$. However, the game has seen two chops and three pots with only two players in the last round of play. None of the players are amoungst the miriad of mega-fish that frequent my cardroom. A few minutes later, there are seats open in three games, two 3-6 and one 4-8. they break our game and everyone gets a seat in a different game. The game I am seated in is OK but not great. The guy on my left is a mega-fish, and so is the guy two to my left. I wind up in the SB with AQo. The mega-fish UTG raises. His raising standards are pathetic, but he is not a maniac. The button cold calls (OK player after the flop, but poor pre-flop play) and I call, so does the BB. The flop comes ace high and I bet. BB calls and mega-fish raises. Button cold calls and I reraise, all call. The turn is trash, I bet and they call. The river is trash, I bet, UTG calls and has A7o. Up about 80$. My dinner arrives and I wind up enjoying it thoroughly (the food there is great). I played one hand which cost me about 20$ when my flush draw busted. Another hand I played where I limped in MP with a fair hand, but it got raised, reraised, and capped, so I folded. The mega-fish on my left leaves the game to go play omaha (D'OH!). Down to seven handed. A few minutes later, another fish at the tables goes bust, but leaves his phone to hold his seat. Meanwhile, two tight players enter the game. Within fifteen minutes, all the fish are gone and there are nothing but relatively tight players left in the game. I had played a pot and lost, but played another and won. I paid for my dinner and had sixty bucks to show for a profit. Now since this cardroom has no drop or rake, I could have probably stayed and eeked out a small hourly profit. The tight players are probably not so tough that I wouldn't have a small advantage over them, but, if I normally have a 2BB/hour EV playing against mostly fish, what could my EV possibly be against a tight, shorthanded game? NOT MUCH. So I cashed out and went home. That was the best play.
Dave in Cali
I would have considered three-betting with AQ against the two players you described. You almost certainly have the best hand against those two. Your raise will also eliminate the big blind (I would much rather play AQ out of position three-handed than four-handed).
Good play, Dave!
no rake, where is this?
good luck,
Bob T.
Typical 3-6 game. I get Kh Qs UTG. I limp, all fold to the sb who calls, the bb raises and we both call.
(Is this the way I should play KQo UTG? Lots of folding is not the norm in this game.)
Flop Qd 4d 5s
sb checks, bb bets (no surprise), I raise, sb cold calls, bb re-raises, we both call.
The turn and river are not scary and we both call down the bb on both streets to be shown KK.
How am I supposed to get away from this hand? I am thinking maybe I can cap the flop, then if he bets the turn I can fold. If he checks the turn I bet it, and if he raises me I fold. If he bets the river I fold, otherwise I bet it and call him down if he raises? Is this the correct way to play this hand?
when someone raises out of the BB like that, unless they have been unduly agressive beforehand I put them on AA,KK,QQ or AK suited... after being 3 bet on the flop I think you can put him on either AA KK or QQ.
Against non tricky players I would fold the turn here...(you are drawing dead to QQ, 2 outs to KK, 5 outs to AA) although I'd definitely call down if they had shown signs of being wild beforehand.
However: if you had say JTs and flopped top pair with jacks, you have significantly more outs against KK and QQ, so I might see the river if the pot was giving me odds for a 5 outer. I would consider folding to a bet on the river If I didn't improve.
Hands like these are why KQ can be a problem hand for some people... I think you played it fine preflop...in regular games you can limp it utg as long as you can fold when you take heat later on. If it is 3 bet coming back preflop then I would fold every time.
Wardy
Sammy:
Against an aggressive opponent just call the flop reraise and all subsequent bets, betting on the river if he checks (this is important). If he checks the river expect him to fold or show something like AK/JJ-77. 4-betting the flop is right when he'll call the flop raise and wait for the turn to check-raise you with an overpair/nut top pair or better, but will 3-bet draws. You probably want to fold to a check-raise on the turn unless he thinks you're particularly wimpy or aggressive, and, critically, tends to act on what he sees (most LL players don't).
Against everyone else, call the flop raise and fold to a bet on the turn, as it's virtually impossible for the typical passive LL player to have AK/QJ/JJ or worse after he 3-bets the flop. In fact, calling the reraise is probably slightly negative, but you don't want to announce that you can fold a pair if they stick in another nth of a the pot on the flop.
KQo utg is profitable in a loose game but marginal or negative when it tightens up or gets more aggressive. In a tough game you don't want to play it here. As to whether you should limp or raise, be more inclined to raise if you can steal the blinds (they respect you and you haven't played a hand in an hour) or if a couple (or fewer) opponents will call with worse hands. Be more inclined to limp if 3 or more (including blinds) will likely come in unless the game is absurdly loose.
Just my opinion.
Chris
Say you have 45s on the button.
Everyone limps to you.
In general is it +EV to call?
In my opinion, that is not a +EV play. Suited connectors are better against large groups of people, not few. I say either (1)lay it down and let the blinds chop or (2)raise and try to steal right there. A call isn't a good play (there's a good chance one of them has you dominated, one could raise to get you or the other blind out, etc.). I don't think call is an option with that weak of a hand (even from the button)...but if you think you can get these players to lay down better hands post-flop or keep them around for lots of bets if you hit--then go for it. Best of luck.
C
I think you misread the post. He said everyone limps to you. Meaning you will be the eighth player to call one bet.
KJS
IMO, 45s would be worth a call as long as 8+ limpers are seeing the flop with you. If you flop a complete hand or a good draw, you will have people to pay you off. If you don't get a good piece of the flop, you'll obviously have to fold.
The only way I can picture this being a bad call is if you were to play too loosely/chase after the flop.
-----Jeff
s
nt
Yes. You don't necessarily need everyone to limp to play this, but you usually want MOST players to limp, and for there to be little chance of a raise. With these hands, you want multi-way pots and passive opponents, to cover the implied odds needed to make the hand profitable, plus to ensure that you will get to see the flop cheaply.
Hello fellow 2+2ers.
Online 10-handed 1-2$ game, pretty soft game with 3 or 4 looseys and the usual grinding crew.
I get dealt AA in mid position. Fishy player UTG limps, it's folded to me and I raise. To my suprise all folds except UTG.
Flop: Js Th 5d
UTG checks, I bet, UTG checkraises.Now I put UTG on top pair or possibly a two-pair. I call, planning to raise the turn.
Turn: Jc, Board: Jc Js Th 5d
UTG bets.Ugh, that's not the card I wanted to see. I call.
River is a brick, UTG bets, I call.
The big question here is whether I should toss the aces on the turn or not. I really felt behind at the point, but folding aces heads up seems weakish.
Comments appreciated.
Sincerly, Andreas
If you plan on calling the river, then maybe you can raise the turn to see how serious he really is. It's the same BB you would have put in on the river anyway. If he makes it three I think you can safely fold, also, if he just calls, then bets into you on the river he probably has you and you can fold.
I would be interested to know what others think about this.
IMO as long as it narrows his hand one that almost certainly contains a J (or he could have a full now too) and you weren't sure otherwise.
I think this is a good move against decent/good players. But vs. weak players I'm not sure, they might go to 3 bets with strange hands and reasoning.
Raising the turn, pros:a) Protects your hand.b) Protects future hands, maintaining an agressive image.c) Value if he's betting a T or a pocket pair.
Cons:a) You deny yourself the slim chance of filling up if he 3-bets. b) You might be bluffed out. c) You might stop a bluff. d) You might be bet out of the hand by a worse hand (QQ/KK, unlikely here though.)
There are probably a ton of other pros and cons, I just came up with these on the fly.
Sincerly, Andreas
I dont think this is a good situation for the raise the turn check the river play. You are either way ahead or way behind. If he is bluffing you win only 1 bet from him (eg he will fold, though may easily bet the river as a bluff).
If he is ahead he may just reraise and you give up the small chance of cathcing a miracle.
He may just reraise as bluff, now your safe fold has cost you the pot.
I think calling him down is much better than raising the turn.
I think the correct play here all depends on your take on how UTG plays. Would he checkraise a preflop raiser as a bluff of semi-bluff??? If not, he probably has top pair or two pair, and in either situation the J on the turn improves his hand a great deal. (Unless he had bottom two pair on the flop, in which case the J helped you. Is he the kind of player who would call a raise with T5??)
Although it may make you feel like less of a man, I wouldn't say that folding Aces on the turn here would be weakish. (As long as you were pretty sure that he had you beat.)
I'm assuming from the title of your post that the Aces lost, but I'd be interested to know exactly what UTG had.
Well, thats my two sense...
-----Jeff
Basically I agree, you have to assess what the pot is laying you versus what it will cost versus your chances of having the best hand at the showdown.
Forgot to include the results in the post.
UTG held J8 offsuit.
Sincerly, Andreas
Andreas,
I don't think a response here will make you feel any better, so just imagine me rolling my eyes at your opponent.
LOL... ain't LLHE great :)
! nt !
Am I smokin' dope here or what? Didn't you have a full house and he only had trips?????
Uh uh. You can't muck your hand here in a heads up pot. I would have raised, hoping to freak out the guy with JTo then mucked if three bet. This way your charging his JsKd the max to flush/fill up, and you're not going to get three bet by an inferior hand.
In short, I can't put him on a big hand. JJ? TT? If he wouldn't have raised preflop, he probably would have been unaware enough to slowplay (he is, after all, playing 1-2). A flush? Maybe, but most players won't check raise with a flush draw; they'd rather lead bet it.
In short, you probably have the best hand. Have at it. Raising here won't cost you anymore than check-calling if you're beat, and if a blank hits the river you've probably got an easy value bet, therefore netting you one more BB for your troubles.
Sorry, I thought the turn was a 5, not a J. Still, I would have raised here probably, then either mucked or checked it down. Although against some opponents I'd value bet the river.
I personally would have put him on either 10-5 (which weakish low limit players love to play)or j-10. I would have had no hesitation to fold on the turn.
>>I get dealt AA in mid position. Fishy player UTG limps, it's folded to me and I raise. To my suprise all folds except UTG. <<
Right.
>>flop: Js Th 5d <<
Decent flop. You could action from a variety of hands where you were a big favorite.
>>UTG checks, I bet, UTG checkraises.<<
He's probably got a piece of the board and it's almost certainly a J or T. He could have a set too but it's less likely. He'd probably wait for the turn to "spring the trap." I suppose he might have an overpair but I would think that this is unlikely. A straight draw is a less likely to IMO.
>>Now I put UTG on top pair or possibly a two-pair. I call, planning to raise the turn. <<
I like it.
>>Turn: Jc, Board: Jc Js Th 5d <<
Oh oh. Right now there are 6.75 big bets in the pot neglecting the rake. You will probably have to put in 2 more to win the pot. So it would seem that you are getting about 7.75 - 2 to make this call. IMO an important consideration is how would your opponent play a T. What are the chances that your opponent would check raise you with a T on the flop? How often will your opponent check the river with a T if it's unimproved? If you determine that his chances of check raising with a T are small enough it's time to abandon ship. If you think he might check raise with a T and slow down on the river definitly call and if you don't know call.
Go back to the flop. You put him on top pair or maybe two pair which I assume would be JT. Your card reading was accurate in this situation and if you would have had more confidence in your read you would have laid it down. I think this is the most important point regarding this hand. All that stuff I wrote about the possibility of him having a T without a J wasn't relevant to this player most likely.
>>UTG bets. Ugh, that's not the card I wanted to see. I call.
River is a brick, UTG bets, I call.
The big question here is whether I should toss the aces on the turn or not. I really felt behind at the point, but folding aces heads up seems weakish.<<
He doesn't know you have Aces (if he did he wouldn't check raise on the flop) and if you have to lay them down do not show the hand. It's very reasonable in his mind and the other players minds that your simply laying down 2 overcards.
One interesting move would be to fold the river. If I were the UTG player here I would possible play a T in the same way he did on the flop and turn. (Can't think of many UTG hands containing a T though.) But most players back of on the river.
Maybe calling the turn the turn and folding if he bets or betting if he checks is the best strategy.
Sincerly, Andreas
I think folding the turn would have been just fine. When you get check-raised on the flop, you have to give him credit for at least top pair most of the time, especially since you raised pre-flop. Now, when the board pairs, you pretty much have a two-outer most of the time. The pot is pretty small and you are almost certainly behind, fold.
Was this just a bad beat or could I have played it differently? (Note: this hand happened long ago before I discovered these poker forums so the betting details are long forgotten...the cards however, are not)
I was in the BB with As7s. A few limpers and I check (didn't want to raise because of the weak kicker).
Flop comes Qs9s3s. I play as aggresively as I can being on the BB (bet out), but there are no raisers.
10d comes on the turn, I bet out and am called by one player. Qh is the river and here I make the mistake of re-raising (I was concentrating on the nut flush so hard that I failed to recognize the paired board that leads to a boat), and lo and behold I get beaten runner-runner by Q10o.
This was a 4-8 game that generally played pretty tight.
Thanks!
Always beware a player who after being passive then starts raising. He has called all that way then he raises so always check the board. I guess you were on auto-pilot with the trigger finger ready. I can see nothing wrong in your play before that re-raise.
There could have been a happy ending here if he had called all the way through just to make a straight, or second best Flush, jeez, those are the hands I love the most!!
I suggest you wipe this from your memory, good luck Droopy
You played fine. I especially like your aggressively betting the nut flush from the BB, no one will suspect a thing. Of course when raised on the river, you just call, don't reraise….
Something else that you might learn from this is to adjust to others, both how they play and how they see you. His not raising the flop or turn suggests that he's either generally tentative or specifically apprehensive of you (thinks you are most likely to bet that board with the flopped flush). Your river raise isn't terrible against some players, but it looks like it might have been especially bad against this guy.
I am fairly new to poker room 7CS and have been playing mostly 2/4 with $.25 ante. The house takes $3 every 30 minutes and tipping in SF Bay Area is between $1-2 per hand at this level, at this particular card room. (Oaks card Club, Emeryville)
My Question is:
Would it make more sense for me to play the 4/8 game? Are there more people who just sit and wait for nuts or less??? Perhaps since 2/4 is "cheaper" the cheap retired coupon clippers play there. My wallet would allow me to play 4/8 but I am still learning so I thought I'd keep my lessons cheaper this way. What else if anything is different in 4/8 table vs. 2/4.
The two books I've read dont really cover the fine difference (if any) between two low limit games like above.
All answers welcome. Also on the math about the $3 per half hour vs. game selection. Even from upset, retired coupon clippers. (sorry) you guys are pretty awesome card players...
If the time charge is the same or proportionately less for $4-8 I'd play the $4-8.
Yeah, time charge and tipping is the same. I just dont want to play against many players who just wait for good cards before they play...or maybe I should learn how to make money when I see many ppl like this. Any recommendations on that...?
The quality of the games might be different at the two limits, but in general, players at both levels should prove to be pretty weak. Retired coupon clippers may often be playing for social reasons more than money reasons, and may prove to be pretty darn tight with their chips. I found the very smallest games in atlantic city to not be as good as the slightly larger ones. I liked 5-10 much better than 1-5 or 1-3, even though I could beat any of the games pretty easily. I think that with the time charge you mentioned, you will definitely be better off playing the higher limit games, mostly because in the 4-8 game with the same 3$/half hour time charge, you are paying ½ as much time (proportionately). I doubt the competition is any different at either level, most low limit players are not skilled, whether that be 1-3 or 4-8. Sometimes the retired players can be quite rock-like though, and you should be cautious when they raise. They might be sitting around waiting for the nuts. Ironically, these players seemed more prevolent in the smaller games than the bigger ones, I guess the gamblers go to the big games and the "play it safe" players play at the smallest ones.
Dave in Cali
A hand came up last night, and I'm wondering if I played it correctly.
Playing 3-6 at a table with moderate action. Two limpers to me. I'm in middle position with AcJs, I just call, one limper behind me, SB calls. We see the flop 6-handed.
Flop is 10s9s3s. Checked to me, I check, player behind me checks.
Turn is Ks. Checked to me. Now normally here I would automatically bet because I'm pretty sure I have the best hand. But I just check hoping someone will try to steal the pot on the river.
River is a rag. BB bets, all others fold, I call. BB had red 88s.
Another player at the table (whom I consider to be a solid player) is confused as to why I didn't bet the turn asks me why, but I didn't want to explain myself out loud at the table so I thought I would post it at 2+2 to see what you guys think.
It seemed unlikely to me that a bet on the turn would get out anybody who could outdraw me on the river. I also thought that a bet on the turn would get everybody to fold which is OK too, but I thought I could maybe make some more money on the hand. Also, some of the other players are capable of check-raise bluffing the turn and I didn't want to get caught in that position. Now in this instance I probably won one BB more than I would have with a bet on the turn, but I want to know if this was really a +EV play in the long run, or is it a play that should only be mixed in occasionally (or not at all).
>>It seemed unlikely to me that a bet on the turn would get out anybody who could outdraw me on the river. <<
I agree.
>>I also thought that a bet on the turn would get everybody to fold which is OK too,<<
That alone would be reason enough to bet.
>>but I thought I could maybe make some more money on the hand.<<
With 6 players in and all kinds of flush and straight draws out there, a lot of cards will come that pair somebody up as well as complete the draws.
>> Also, some of the other players are capable of check-raise bluffing the turn and I didn't want to get caught in that position.<<
Well you could fold because your hand isn't that strong IMO.
>> Now in this instance I probably won one BB more than I would have with a bet on the turn, but I want to know if this was really a +EV play in the long run, or is it a play that should only be mixed in occasionally (or not at all).<<
I don't think that this is the right situation to induce a bluff as I think you should re-read the sections in HFAP that discuss inducing bluffs. You want to be in position, preferably heads up, or sometimes 3 handed with a not too big of a pot against the right kind of opponent.
.
"It seemed unlikely to me that a bet on the turn would get out anybody who could outdraw me on the river"
You have the third nut flush, what could outdraw you now? You are either ahead or behind, but anyone with a flush has already sealed their fate against you. They either have the As or Qs, which beats you, or the 7s6s or 8s7s, which each have one out to beat you, or they have a smaller spade and are drawing dead. Someone with a set or two pair could outdraw you, but given the action, this doesn't seem likely. I would think that a check-raise bluff on the turn is not much of a worry in this situation. I like betting the turn (folding to a raise, of course) and then check-calling the river.
"It seemed unlikely to me that a bet on the turn would get out anybody who could outdraw me on the river."
Righto. The only hands which could outdraw you are a set and two pair, which given the action, don't look too likely. I like your play. Your either way ahead or your toast, and checking the turn gives the middlin' spades out there enough hope to bet the river or call your river bet, while minimizing the damage an A or Q can do.
Change your spade to the A or Q, and I think you have to bet, to charge the 8 and 7.
Of course if the BB didn't bet, I hope you were ready to. And I might have given the people behind you a look-over. If it didn't look like overcalls were coming, I might have raised the BB. In this case, it wouldn't have made you anymore, but he might have called with a little spade. Very player dependant though, I'd have to have a read first.
Best,
zooey
Many local Vegas casinos and some on the strip have a 1-2 blind structure. Calling to see the flop costs $2, a raise makes it $6.
My core question is what adjustments should someone make to their preflop strategy because of this structure?
Because this structure offers much greater implied odds, I tend to raise much more aggressively before the flop with my big cards. I want to destroy the implied odds for the limpers. It is not uncommon to see people call down with K-8 on a K flop, or even with middle pair. Therefore, hands like QJ and KJ in middle position become raisers for me, is this correct? I get dominated sometimes, sure...but I can get away from the hand when it is apparent I am beaten, and these hands dominate way more than they are dominated. Face card-rag suited calls are SUPER common in these games.
What about pairs. I am inclined to call with ANY pair in any position as long as most pots aren't being raised preflop since my risk v reward on flopping a set is much more in my favor than normal. What about other mid-late position hands? Do I call with low unsuited connectors since the flop can be seen cheaply?
Thoughts appreciated.
Clark
>>What about pairs. I am inclined to call with ANY pair in any position as long as most pots aren't being raised preflop since my risk v reward on flopping a set is much more in my favor than normal.<<
Sure and remember if you call for $2 and someone makes it $6 IMO the option to throw away your hand after the raise is much more viable in this structure than the more common structure. IMO you should play Axs and the suited connectors with 0 or 1 gap with from any position as well.
>>What about other mid-late position hands? Do I call with low unsuited connectors since the flop can be seen cheaply?<<
I still wouldn't play the lowest unsuited connectors very often and make sure the implied odds are there.
If I had to "pump myself up" by playing lower limits this is the game I would do it in. The live ones are at a big disadvantage with this structure. From what I understand the Orleans offers a $6-12 and a $10-20 game with a similar structure.
"Sure and remember if you call for $2 and someone makes it $6 IMO the option to throw away your hand after the raise is much more viable in this structure than the more common structure"
Yes...I am almost always the only player at the table folding hands before the flop after someone has raised. I also find it particularly important in these games to make absolutely certain that any real aggressive players are on my right.
I didn't know the Orleans had this structure all the way up to 10-20. Usually I go to the Mirage for 6-12 games, but I'll give the Orleans a shot.
Thanks
What other structure is there in a 4-8 game? What you are describing is the only one I've seen from my limited poker experience in St. Louis, MO.
Thanks, Jeff
$2 and $4 blinds
You can definitely limp with more hands in this structure due to the larger implieds odds. Ironically though, you can also afford to play tighter due to the proportionately smaller blinds. But because 1-4-8-8 is by definition a low limit game, I cannot see the benefit of a good player playing extra tightly in these games, just because they can. I want to get involved with as many pots as possible and allow myself the chance to outplay my generally weak opponents.
You can limp with more hands because of the greater implied odds in 1-4-8-8. However, if it gets raised to 6$, you may wind up having to fold. It's kind of like having it raised and reraised behind you in a regular game, except there's only one of the allowable raises used up. To be honest, I don't lower my raising standards much when I play 1-4-8-8, especially not if someone has limped already. I pretty much raise with the same hands as I did before. But when I DO raise, I virtually always raise the max. Make the limpers PAY to see the flop. I love it when someone limps for two, then calls four more after I raise. On the flip side, you have to be even more careful about calling other people's raises, as your odds are even worse now than they are in a normal game. If a solid player raises, fold all but your best hands. No Axs, KQo, or small pairs. The way you said you changed your raising standards is probably OK, but I don't like to put too much money into the pot with KJo and QJo and such hands until I see the flop. Remember, by building a big pot, you often times tie people on who might have otherwise got out of your way when you bet. AND – if you flop top pair and bet 4$ into an unraised pot, they are making a bigger mistake than they would be in a normal ring game when you bet one small bet into them. Let them make those big mistakes against you. This is especially true if you have top pair and get a chance to RAISE the flop. If they call with a weaker hand, and the pot is unraised, they are no doubt making a very large mathematical mistake against you.
Post flop play is not much different, except for the pre-flop pot sizes often vary more than normal. It's a little harder to keep track of your correct pot odds, so pay attention. You have to be careful, because if there was no raise pre-flop, and someone bets 4$, you are not getting the same odds as you usually would be in a ring game, and you should fold more hands. Of course the good part here is that you can charge draws proportionately more as well. If you are lucky enough to be playing against players who don't bet the max, you have an ideal situation. They let you draw for cheap, while you bet the max against them.
Dave in Cali
i think the opposite of what most people here seem to be saying...
i play extra tight because there is no freakin money in the pot to start. for example the riviera i believe has an 11 handed hold'em $4/8 game with one $2 blind. $2 for 11 hands is really cheap.
in late position i do limp with lots of junky hands after several limpers(i.e Axs, 9Ts), say on the cutoff and button, but not otherwise.
1-4-8-8 Hold'Em in St. Louis at the Ameristar...
-I have pocket Aces.
-It is capped pre-flop with 9 PLAYERS!!! ($126)
-Flop is K,2,5 rainbow.
-The flop is capped with 7 PLAYERS!!! ($112)
-Turn is K,2,5,10 rainbow.
-The turn is capped with 5 PLAYERS!!! ($160)
-River is K,2,5,10,3
-Winner turns over 4,6 offsuit to beat me heads up ($16). The total pot was $300!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know HE shouldn't have been in the hand (since it is an obvious loser over the long haul), but do you think I should have been in the hand????????
Obviously, the table was very loose and there were plenty of bullys that liked to push the table around.
Thanks for your input, Jeff
While the 4-6's before the flop play is ridiculous, post flop there's no hope of chasing him off and the pot's big enough for him to chase his 4 outer all the way to the river.
What's interesting/instructive about the hand isn't how you played it nor how the 4-6 played it, but how game selection helps or hurts the player trying to play well. Once the pots get big like this, your skill edge is diminished. The biggest flaw in your opponents game is that they call too much. By playing in that game where calling too much is no longer an error or that much of an error, your poor playing opponents are now playing better purely by accident.
Unfortunately, there isn't much game selection possible on that boat.
I would LOVE to play in this game, but no doubt it would be very frustrating at times. If none of these players have any real ability to play well, you might want to find a more passive game. Extremely loose games with several complete maniacs can be very tough to beat, because it becomes pretty much a showdown craps shoot. You need a couple decent players in there to bet and raise so you can make plays, and you need a few players who will fold, so you can drive them out when you have the best hand, and increase your chances of winning the pot. But if you wait for good hands, especially pairs, you can potentially make lots of money in these loose, wild games.
Dave in Cali
Unless you could safely assume that: a) No one flopped two pair (Kx suited is risk, evidently so are any two cards even CLOSE to one another) b) Everyone would recap with nothing but one pair and no draw
.... the flop should have dropped you, saving you $50-60 bucks?
With that insanity going on, and the implied odds from the 8-8 structure, if you don't fit post-flop, get out and wait for when you do... And, as you probably know, forget lower suited connectors to play and look for those pairs to pound with....
LL game I have been playing recently usually has infrequent raising before the flop (usually no bet or one bet) and only 2-4 players calling. Post-flop the play continues to be passive and tight with plenty of checks around.
What's the best strategy to attack this sort of game?
I'm thinking... Pre-flop: -Bet and raise for value with premium hands -Fold marginal / drawing hands -Attempt to steal the blinds more than usual -Try to buy the button more than usual Post-flop: -Semi-bluff/bluff more often -Check raise less often
Any help??
You seem to be on the right track as far as the adjustments go. Bluff and semi-bluff more, check-raise less. when someone does come out betting, they probably have a better hand than usual, so you must give them more respect than you would in a more average game. Pre-flop, I would play about the usual amount of hands, but play a few more high card hands and a few less suited connector and small pair hands. You don't want to play too tight here, because that will lower your number of opportunities to enter and steal the pot. I would consider raising pre-flop with a few more hands too, because of the additional opportunity to steal the blinds. You will make most of your money in this game by stealing pots that you normally wouldn't be able to buy. Bet more with hands like second pair or flush draws. Call other people's bets less, as they will probably have a good hand.
The best adjustment for this game would be to find a looser game, especially if there is a rake or drop. Tight games are not big money makers, even if they are beatable. But if the rake or drop is high, tight games are unbeatable, period.
Tight and passive (where 'passive' means 'not much raising' instead of 'people are calling stations') is a horrible combination. If you don't consistently see people making significant mistakes in a low limit game (and modest chasing is not enough), then the rake probably makes it unbeatable or nearly unbeatable.
Anyway.
Semi-bluffing on the turn, sometimes followed by a pure bluff on the river can be good -- and I'm not just talking about a big flush draw, E.g. If the pot is crowded and a turn raise will clean up your pair outs and maybe buy you the pot when you have a gut-shot, (say KQ w/ a t9xx board). This is good in a game where people scurry when the turn is raised, I think. You can get a few pots that aren't yours -- at least until people adjust.
n
I have read in books and other posts which always seem to suggest that weaker players lose too much money in the blinds by either protecting too agressively, or folding too strong a hand (although usually the former over the latter). As a general rule in LL play (3-6 for example) what should a good players expectation be for the $4 in BB and SB bets?
Thanks
J
As a general rule, a good player should be expecting to lose their small blind most of the time. They won't call with very many hands, because they are out of position, especially in 3-6 with the blind being only 1/3 of a bet. When the blind is half a bet, you can play more hands, but you must still fold often. In the BB, you can certainly play a lot more hands than the SB. Often you will get a free play, and when it gets raised, you will be able to call sometimes because of your increased pot odds, due to your already being half way in. There is no specific "EV" that I can assign to the blinds, they are merely part of your overall EV in the game. However, I like to think that any time I get a free play in the BB, that I have a positive EV out of it, because I am getting a free chance to play a hand that I usually would not have played.
Weak players probably lose way more than they should from the blinds because they over-defend them. I am ready to fold my blinds in a moment's notice if the situation is not right, that is, I don't have any attachment to them once they are posted. They are just the same as if you were watching the money in the center of the pot on a hand you were not participating in, that is, the money is not yours anymore. If it's raised, I can throw my cards into the muck without regard for whether I have posted a blind. After all, trash is still trash, and you can't call raises with trash. Pick and choose your spots to defend your blinds carefully, don't just automatically call because you don't want to give up your blinds. They were gone the minute they hit the felt.
Dave in Cali
It's a regular 3/6 game on Paradise.
One utg smoother, Hero smooths QTss near the button and smooths. Button Raises and both blinds call. 5 ways.
Flop comes :
-= Ah Js Jh =-
All check
Turn comes :
-= Ah Js Jh : Kc =-
Both blinds and utg player check. Hero is next to act - Whats the play?
Results later....
Mike
ps sorry about the repeat post from the internet poker section.
Bet. You can't rely on the button to bet here.
Although if the button raises, you're probably in some serious trouble and should even consider mucking.
Chris
I like the check here. By the way, only post your hands in one forum please, or I'll take your bank roll. Also I recommend playing 69o. ;)
See you at Don G's!
Miles....So What.
Betting here is yer tech
10-handed 5/10 game. Game is pretty loose, also pretty aggressive (two very loose raiser in it).
Next to UTG raises (NTH). NTH is one of the very loose raisers. MP (tight caller of raises) cold calls, all fold to me in the BB with AQo, and I just call.
Flop: T K 3 with two clubs; my Q is of clubs.
NTH bets, MP calls, and I decide to call. This is because MP would certainly raise AK, AA here, and probably even KK or TT. The only hand that he would call is AQ or AJs IMO. NTH could bet anything here (he's also very loose postflop). There are 8SB in the pot, so I think it's close, but with some implied odds when the straight hits, I think it's (a marginal) call (folding isnt wrong IMO though). I dont want to raise, because I've bad position, and NTH could raise me with even a T here.
Anyway,
Turn: J (no club)
I check, NTH bets, MP raises. And now is where I think I made a terrible mistake, but I'd like to know what you think; I re-raised. I think this is very bad, bacause NTH would probably overcall with any pair/ draw here for 1 BB, but would probably fold when he has to call 2 BB cold.
Rest of the hand is not too important; NTH folds, it get capped on every street and MP showes AQ for a split pot.
Comments?
Thanks
I see what you're saying... It would've been nice to have split up more of NTH's $$. But this is merely 20-20 hindsight. First, there is no guarantee that NTH will call one more bet anyway and you might have MP beat which makes it necessary to further charge him. Second, the board is highly coordinated, meaning there is still a good chance for you to get action if certain hands are out. Third, in addition to other cards which could beat you, you don't want a Q to fall creating a possible 3-way chop if NTH also has an ace. I think your raise was fine, although betting the turn yourself might've picked up an additional bet from NTH. IMO-
If NTH is on a flushdraw or if he has a set (even loose raisers get TT/JJ/QQ/33) you charge him the max.
If he's overly agressive I'd probably bet the turn, hoping to 3-bet, otherwise I like your play.
Sincerly, Andreas
No real question this time, just a sensational hand a friend of mine witnessed that I thought I'd share. (I might have gotten some positions wrong and the likes.)
Online 5-10$ game.
Preflop:Folded to MP who opens with a raise. All fold to the blinds who both call.
Flop: Kh Jh ThBlinds check, MP bets, both blinds call.
Turn: Tc, Board: Kh Jh Th TcSB bets, BB calls, MP raises, both blinds call.
River: Td, Board: Kh Jh Th Tc Td SB bets, BB calls, MP raises, SB reraises, BB calls, MP capps, both call.
MP turns over Ah Qh for the royal, SB turns over A-T offsuit for the runner-runner quads. Hand history revealed that BB was way out on a limb with A-J offsuit.
I just love seeing suckouters drawing dead.
Sincerly, Andreas
This happens in a live game about once every ten years. Online, probably once a day. It isn't rigged for action. Not at all.
it is called a bad beat; i think it happens in my local card room every couple of weeks. of course, we don't play half as many hands that they play online. give me a break. i am so tired of this rigged talk. collusion maybe, but paradise would have to be retarded to think they could increase profits by rigging the game.
rama jamma
I'm not claiming it's rigged software, I just thought the hand was amazing.
Sincerly, Andreas
i agree with you andreas, but i think "oh what a 'normal' hand" believes the game is rigged
rama jamma
Hello everyone,
I was in forth position when I picked up AsKs, I raised the pot and go 4 cold callers behind me plus the big blind called. (12 s.b's in the pot). All the cold callers were very loose and liked to play every hand no matter what the cost, and the player in the big blind would bet any pair into a pre-flop raiser. The flop came Js6d2c, the big blind bet out, he could have jacks, 2', or anything. Because of my back door flush and straight chances as well as my overcards being good, I put in a raise for a free card and to fold out some of the players in back of me. Two players behind me called as well as the big blind. The turn card was the 8s, giving me the nut flush draw and a draw to an ace or king. My question is this. When the spade came I checked taking the free card and everyone else checked. Should I have placed a bet here? I didn't think a bet would drop any of the remaining players. The river card was the Ad, I bet and took the pot. When you raise for the free card if you improve slightly, should you bet again or just check? Any comments would be great:)
fred
I like the check in this specific example because:
-I tend to doubt anyone would put you on a flush when another spade hits on the river.
-You certainly are not ahead at this point, and since no one may fold you are throwing unneccessary bets away if you do not hit. This is already a substantial pot, so why build it bigger with a draw against multiple opponents?
I realize that betting here would be charging weak hands to draw, but you may just be routing those bets to someone who has you beat and will call you down.
Fallon
If there's a chance that you can win the pot right there you should bet. The less your chances of stealing the pot, the stronger your hand/draw needs to be to bet the turn. For example, against one timid opponent I need only 2 cards to bet the turn as I feel there is a very good chance he won't call. If I'm against 6 opponents, I know I'm going to have to show down the best so I'm unlikely to bet out.
In your example, you had 3 opponents 2 of whom had called a raise to a board with no draws. If you bet here not only are you likely to get called, you are likely to get raised.
In this situation the only thing you can do is fold. You are looking for an A or a K on the turn. You are a 7:1 dog to hit the turn. Even when you hit the turn you can still be beat by AJ or KJ or even by an inferior holding your fearless opponents play. And dont even think about a backdoor st8 or flush spending 2 bets on nothing with 5 players who can reraise you its a long long way and much too expensive.
Well, that depends on a couple things. First, you have to gauge your chances of getting everyone else to fold but one player; if this might happen (and it wouldn't in the situation you just described, since almost every player has decided to go to the river if they call two cold on the flop) you should consider betting the turn, hoping that a) your A high will win unimproved in a showdown, or b) that you'll get a hand like A6 to fold, thereby giving you additional outs. One nice thing about your raise on the flop-- and it was a good raise, since the flop was so un-coordinated--is that it forces your opponents behind you to define their hands. If they call two cold, well, you know they've got something ,which means you can play the turn a bit more cautiously. If the flop as any more coordinated (for instance, Ts 7h 5h) I would have checked and called.
Hey all,
Played at my home court tonight and finally got back in the good graces of the card playing gods.
I did have a hand that is troubling me some, so here it is for what it's worth.
9 handed 3-6 HE game: I'm UTG with KK and raise, the woman next to me, the cutoff, and button all call two cold. The BB also comes.
5 handed, 10 SB in pot (-$3 rake)
Flop comes QJ3 with 2 spades. I do not have the Ks
BB checks and I bet. Woman next to me calls. I've never played with this woman until today, but after about 1/2 hour, I determine that she is very new to casino poker. She has bet numerous ill-advised hands as well as any pair. She has also tried to run a couple of bluffs which were unsuccessful. Needless to say, her table image has not earned my respect. However, I have not gotten an accurate read on any one of the hands that she has shown. All others fold, BB even shows me a Q which I ask dealer to show woman as well.
Turn: 4 of spades, flush draw present.
I bet, she calls. At this point, I've put her on some sort of Q because she called after several seconds of pondering. I can't determine if she has a spade or not.
River: x of spades, 4 spades on board
I bet again, she sighs deeply and after about 45 seconds calls reluctantly.
She shows 66 with the 6 of spades and takes down the pot.
My question is would you bet again on the river and why? Did I miss anything?
Thanx for your responses, Mike
She probably would have called without pondering on the turn had she had a queen. Plus the fact that you knew one queen was already in the muck would cut down her chances of having a queen. I would have taken the ponder on the turn for having a weak spade, but pretty hard to put this novice on any hand.
I don't have strong feelings about your bet on the river, except that if you were going to fold to a raise, you should have checked. If you were going to call a raise, then it was OK to bet. What you want to try to avoid is not getting to see if your hand is best.
Hello Mike, you know my last name is Norton also:) Usually in this situation heads up I will check the hand down. If you were bet into by a very tight player than a fold is correct the majority of the time. On the flip side if you are playing with a player whom often will bluff when the board gets scary than I would consider calling. The have been numerous times when I have cought bluffs against certain players in similar spots. In short, knowing the player is important, but as you said you had no read on this new player. So if you want a showdown, perhaps it is best to check and call. This way, you dont risk a raise. Plus, it is not likely that you will get a poor player to fold a small spade here.
Good Luck:)
I think there are two reasons to bet the river here. One is for value, and the other is to get a better hand to fold. Many times a bet in this spot will achieve the desired effect even when you're not quite sure which one you're hoping for!
If you truly think she could call a bet with a worse pair, then betting is fine. You're likely going to call if you check and she bets (you've stated you've seen her make some strange river bets previously). It's a rare situation when a single pair on a 4 flush board still holds enough value for a bet, but they do occur. On the other hand, from your discription of this player, it's unlikely a bet would cause her to fold a better hand. So I think your decision was close. Close enough where I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it either way. IMO-
Thanks guyz for your responses:
My thoughts on the river were that if I checked and she checked, I would run into the situation that Andy described of showing down my hand. My intention of the bet was for her not to call and to sell that I had a big spade.
Here's an interesting afterthought... how bout if I checked the river and she pondered and bet. Would this be an ideal situation for a semi-bluff check-raise on a weak player? Or would this be ill-advised assuming that she will have no idea what this play will mean (fancy play syndrome)?
Interested to hear some thoughts on this.
Mike
I think it's hard to get a person who is new to casino poker to fold a flush on the river, so I think check-raising the river as a semi-bluff is a bad play.
I like the river bet because they way you describe the player, she will call with a lot of hands you can beat. Also, you won't get raised very often by this type of player unless she has the Ace of Spades.
I like your play until the river bet. I would have checked-called. As it turned out she probably would have checked with you on the end with jsut the 6 of spades. Your bet only will be called or raised if you are beat. However, if you check with the intention of calling you may intice her to bet with an inferior hand to your without a spade.
Gene (holdemdude)
I agree with Gene's comment. Evrything he says is completely true. Best of luck.
Joop
Hey all,
This post is dedicated to play of top pair on board when the top card is a T or less. The game parameters of course are low-limit and loose, passive play.
Conventional wisdom (debatable) says that if you have top pair, good kicker you should raise a bettor in front of you to do two things:
1) Move out overcard callers behind you 2) Make the pot shorthanded
Conventional wisdom works the best when you have a rainbow board such as T62 or something similar where you can probably get the pot heads up on the turn.
The problem gets complex when you have top pair, good kicker on some sort of coordinated board (either straight draw or flush draw present).
For example, you are in the cutoff with KT (suited or unsuited) and 3 limpers to you. You limp as well, and both blinds come as well. 6 players flop comes T98 rainbow or T97 rainbow or T87 rainbow (you get the picture). In LL, you can't really dissuade anyone who has an open-end straight draw from coming on any of these flops. And then of course, if someone flops the nuts, you won't know until the turn.
Knowing this, question is what do you do when someone bets into you? Of course, you would love to see the person in front of you bet, then you raise and see who comes along for 2 bets. The problem is when someone in the blinds or EP bets and there are several callers to you. Is this a situation where you might lay down top pair on the flop because your hand doesn't have a lot of ways to improve? Or do you grit your teeth, call the flop, and maybe raise when a blank (2,3,4, even a 5) falls on the turn? Do you charge the maximum for straight draws in this case?
Now, introduce a flush draw into these flops above. Now you're really in the soup... so to speak... because now anyone with a flush draw is coming, too. Does the introduction of a flush draw make laying down on the flop a better option? How about if you have KT suited and you have a backdoor flush draw on the flop... does that in and of itself turn a flop fold into a call to see if you pick up a flush draw on turn?
Really the only "safe" cards (KT offsuit) for you on the turn besides the blanks listed above are the 2 remaining T, and 3 remaining K. However, you might already be beaten on the flop by 2 pair... or a set(unlikely)...or AT. Any other card either completes the straight draw or puts an overcard to your top pair.
How about if the board pairs on the turn? Do you give up here if there are several callers on the flop and someone different bets into you? How about if it's checked to you here with 4+ opponents? Do you smell a rat and check behind them, or bet to try and see who's slowplaying (if anyone)?
I realize that I have asked a whole bunch of questions with probably a wide range of answers, as well as the famous answer "it depends". Try to assume that the players in front of you are some of the normal "fishes" who play in your usual games. Or try to think about the last time you were in a situation like these. If someone has a specific example of a hand that documents what I'm talking about, I would really appreciate looking at this and the analysis of what you were thinking.
Looking forward to a bunch of responses on this. I'm sure everyone has different views to share.
Mike
When someone bets into you fold. That's not a top pair board anymore than Ah Kh Th is a straight board. The board left you behind on the flop, and when the board leaves you behind you either have to be ultra aggressive or ultra tight.
In these situations, you can't call. Ever. Either fold to the initial bet, or bet out and fold to a raise. Even if you have KcTc and the board is Th9c8s, all you really have is top pair good kick with a running draw to the non-nut flush in a large multiway pot. That's like running with the scissors.
In general, you have to be in the lead to charge the draws, and KT is never top pair/top kick, it only forms the nut straight two ways, and it only forms the nut flush if the appropriate Ace falls. This is a classic example of a dominated hand that causes way too many problems to be of much utility
I may be in the minority here as an aggressive (high variance for better EV) player, but in your situation I usually raise.
With a good kicker there is a strong chance that your hand is good. Raise it up and let the rest of the table draw to their split pot. So what if you will often be sucked out on and lose a few bets. When it comes river time and the PHAT DUECE makes everyone start squirming because they missed their draw you'll be glad you've built up a nice pot.
Of course occasionally you have to bail when you know your one pair is no good, but hey them's the breaks and that's poker.
This scenario is another example of why position is so important with these types of hands. You can make a lot of money here by being aggressive, and because you have position your losses will also be minimized because the early players will have to bet/raise into you when they make their hands.
Jim
I too agree with Jim in this case. I would rather be too aggressive in the long run then too tight. Let's say the bet came in early position and there was no raise, then you raise. A made hand will re-raise and stop slow playing. If there are no made hands, you are charging people to chase their draw. If a blank hits on the turn, you can bet, or, if you think there was a slow player, you can still check the turn and hope you improve. Yes you are giving a free card, but if someone does have the nuts here, he will for sure raise you. Then you are in a pickle. Does he really have it or just representing it? By giving the free card you are making a "mathmatical catastrophe" but you cannot be too sure that you have the best hand. You can laugh when a blank hits the river and the guy with the nuts bets into you and you call for a net loss of three small bets and one big bet. Or if checked to you, you can bet and if you are not raised, you can be fairly sure you have the best hand.
All and all K-T o is a marginal call before the flop. But I think, when the flop is somewhat favorable, you play it hard and fast. Thanks TL
I play these boards very conservatively. If there's a bet and a couple of callers I'll quietly fold. If it's checked around to me I'll generally check and hope to read a player for a bluff on the turn if a blank hits and raise. On these boards with many callers there's just too few safe cards in the deck, even if you do have the best at the time. Wait for a better situation.
I think are playing too scared here. Sure there are possible straights but most likely there are not there yet. Why give the draws a free chance to catch up? You have a made hand that will very often hold up (assuming its you v. all draws).
I think a big chunk of the money I make in LL HE is from these situations where the draws are throwing money into the pot and end up not getting there. Most of us always remember when the do, but I think you give up a lot if you don't bet just because some cards can hurt you. Most LL players will let you know when they get there or throw in an obvious slow play bet on the turn.
KJS
I got on a siz that you can't believe. I hit Q-5o by hitting runner, runner 5s. I capped preflop with 3-5o against a fool with Kings and caught a straight on the river. I'm really good! Tee, Hee, Hee...
where do you play?
rama jamma
I am having problems in calling a raise in OmH 8OR BETTER.If the raise comes from a good player, he probly has an A2. If you also have an A2, your hand goes way down in value. What should you call a raise with? Any suggestions?
Hi gang,
Here's a recent hand that I played in 3-6 where I got smoked for some cabbage. I've got some questions for each street, so anyone who responds... please try and separate your responses according to the format I provide so that I can read what you're saying a little easier. Thanx in advance for your responses as always :) What I'm saying hopefully will make a little more sense as I go.
Game is 3-6 HE, very loose, passive with one semi-aggressive player, and one good player on the button who I know pretty well.
I'm in the SB with AA (black)... first 3 players call, MP folds, cutoff calls, button raises. As I said, I know the button pretty well, he would raise with a good drawing hand (JTs or better) as well as a mid-pair in this situation. I don't think he would raise with a premium pair or AK in this situation because of the multiple limpers. I 3-bet trying to clear some of the field behind me and protect my hand. Nope, not this time, everyone who committed money calls the other 2 bets cold. 8 way action 3-bet, I've got a sinking feeling about this already
PFC) I think my play here was the correct one to try and limit the field even though I'm out of position. Bad luck that everyone cold calls behind me. Please comment using the qualifier PFC
Flop comes 553 with 2 spades
Not a bad flop, but not exactly what I was drawing up in my head. In this game, it was very possible for someone to have a 5 in his/her hand preflop. Since everyone limped preflop to the button, I'm guessing someone had a 5. I checked with the intention of raising the button if he bet. It didn't get there, 3rd limper bets out. I've played with him several times before and he fits Dave in Cali's definition of the "magoo" player to a "T". There's no doubt he's got a 5 because he's smiling ear to ear. The rest of the field folds behind him to the button... who laughs, shakes his head, and folds. Now it's on me... what do you do?
FC) Of course, I called with my rockets and backdoor flush draw. Would there be a case here to fold or is that too weak-tight? I've got 10 spades that give me the nut-flush draw on the turn and the 2 aces as my money cards. Any 2 or 4 on the turn gives me a gutshot straight draw that may or may not be good, we'll have to consider his kicker. I'll let you math gurus calculate what's in the pot and what my odds are at this point. He knows he's in the lead here against me, but the BB calls behind me too. What could he possibly have? 64? Two spades?
The turn card is an offsuit Q
TC) A blank for me, but maybe I can slow him down if I bet out which I do. I tried to really sell it. My button friend and his buddy next to him go "Uh oh" so that the whole table can hear. BB immediately mucks his hand. I have a fairly tight image and don't bluff very often... let me rephrase... I do bluff some, but don't get caught very often. The guy with the 5 knows this and his smile disappears quickly. He thinks for about 15 seconds (felt like days) and calls. What does everyone think of the bet here? My thinking here is that if I check, he bets, and I have to call anyway with the pot so huge and so much invested. Is hoping that he'll throw away his hand on the river for 2 extra bets too much? Would some of you have gone for a check-raise semi-bluff here or is that just giving more money away?
The river's a blank... an offsuit 10
RC) I bet out again, he looks at me real hard but I'm already staring at him. He calls time and ponders for about 30 seconds before calling. I sigh and show my rockets, he whoops with delight and shows me 95 suited (clubs) for a monster pot. I stew silently and get up after about 15 seconds to go for a walk. My thoughts here are that if I check, he checks behind me and I save a bet. I can't win but I save $6. The flip side here is that if I bet, what % of the time would he have to fold (would have to be small) for my bet to be correct? Or am I living in fantasyland hoping he'll fold trips to a turn and river bet? I've done it when it's obvious that I'm beat, maybe it's not obvious to him what I was trying to do (fancy play syndrome?). Everybody please tell me if I'm smoking crack.
Even if I didn't get him to fold... is there some merit to trying to maximize the chances of winning the pot knowing you're beat? I think just checking to him is announcing defeat...
What do y'all think?
Comments very much appreciated, Mike
check-call the turn, fold the river. you know what he has, save the Big bet. or bet the turn if it will get the river checked behind you. this player seems like a real wuss, that might be possible.
on the flop you are getting odds to spike an ace.
you are trying to get fancy with a guy who plays 5-9 suited, *not* a good idea.
PFC: raising is correct even if you know everyone is coming along. You are getting in A LOT of money when you clearly have the best of it. You’ll only win probably 35-40% of the time against 8 opponents, but they will be monster pots. Even if you only call, the pot will be big enough to keep people in with long shot draws on the flop, and you can’t be sure that the first flop bet will come late allowing you to checkraise. You can get 7 people to put in 1-2 more bets without seeing the flop. There are few flops you can’t play with, but most of them are bad for any individual opponent.
FC: you have the immediate odds to draw to thw two remaining Aces, plus you have a back door flush draw, Plus you have a back door straight draw, PLUS you may be best. You have to call here. The question is whether or not to raise. Given your read is a five, you should probably just call.
TC: A decent play because you’ll call anyway and it gets the BB out since he fears a raise behind him. You have to be pretty sure that you wont get raised to make this play though.
RC: I think this is a clear check heads up. He’s not going to fold in that position no matter what. The pot is huge. He may though check behind you.
I don't know why you needed to cool down after this hand. It's the kind of beat you should be ready for taking Aces into a huge pot, plus your read was correct. Losing only 4 big bets isn't too bad in this situation.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
Pre flop you have to raise to try to thin the field. If they all come, oh well.
I would automatically go for the check raise on the flop to try and get rid of some. The board is actually a very good flop for aces as it virtually kills anyone's hand who doesn't have a pair, str8 draw or flush draw.
Your getting 27-1 on your flop call. Easy call. But keep in mind you know you're beaten so you're playing for an ace.
On the turn I haven't met too many players who'll throw away trips so your bet makes little sense. I hear a lot of people say, "Well, I was going to call a bet...." and then end up calling a raise. I check and fold here. The pot is offering me 15-1 on a 22-1 shot.
What's all this talk about raising AA to "thin the field"? Why should you be mad if those people call? You have the nuts at this point. This is a value bet. Who cares if they call. You have the best hand. I'm a little confused. If 7 people want to come for the ride that's fine by me. I'm favored over anyone.
In the history of small limit poker there are probably only 2 or 3 instances where somebody has layed down trips on the river when there wasn't a four flush or four straight on the board and it was only one bet to them. I don't know how big the pot would have to be to try and get somebody to lay down a set (if you KNEW he had a set), but I would say somewhere in the magnitude of 1500 BB's.
Anyway, I think you played it fine, if only because you can never really be all that sure that someone has a set. He could just as easily had pocket 8's. If you know he's not the type who would push a hand any smaller than trip 5's I might have check-raised the flop, then called if three bet and mucked on the turn. This way you put max pressure on when you're ahead, but lose only a little (3 BB's total, which isn't bad for cracked A's) if you're behind.
I haven't read what the others have said, but I'll give you my comments. First, I like your 3-bet pre-flop, too bad it didn't thin the field. Second, I like the idea of check-raising the flop, except for the early position bet. damn. I would have tried the check-raise in your situation on the turn, then bet out again on the river. If you have a tight enough image you might get him to throw away a weak five. It won't work often, but it doesn't need to to show a profit with this huge pot.
PFC - you should raise regardless of whether it will thin the field or not. And low limit limpers will call two more cold almost all the time, so I wouldn't try this play with something like AQo thinking you could get it heads up with an over-aggressive button.
FC - Your check-raise attempt is fine since the button pre-flop raised. Calling with an overpair and backdoor straight and flush draws is fine. Folding should be out of the question. You're getting 25-1 on your call, which is enough to try and spike an Ace.
TC - Betting out is a big mistake ff you're sure someone has a 5, trying to get somebody at 3-6 to lay down trips is going to cost you a lot of money.
RC - Again, nobody lays down trips at 3-6. Nobody.
Re-raise before the flop for sure. You have the best hand. Unlike the other posters, I would bet the flop out here instead of going for the check raise. I would do this to see where the five might be. Most players with the two flush on the board would raise with their 5 to make the flush draws pay. This would eliminate the field for you. Then you can call or even re-raise in hopes of making it heads up. Then check the turn, maybe fold the river. I would pay it off on the river if I did not improve. Although you are pretty sure he has the five, I would pay one more bet to find out for sure. Plus, he might check the river. Yes you were in fantasy land if you thought he would lay down trips. Yes you were going to call anyways, but a good player would snap a raise on the turn for sure. Then what? All in all I don't think your play was bad it is just like what Doyle Brunson says about big pocket pairs. When you win the pots are usually small, when you lose it is costly. TL
If he fits the definition of magoo to a "T", then you can capitalize "Magoo". There are also Super-Magoo players. It's kinda like a Magoo squared. Super-Magoo is always capitalized, it's just proper english. Everyone know that.
IMO, you check-fold the turn here. The pot ain't THAT big, and you are pretty clearly drawing very slim. Unless you hit an ace or a spade on the turn, going to the river is out of the question. I wouldn't even call a turn bet unless an ace or a spade showed up. If an ace shows up, you check-raise. If a spade shows up, you check-call. You seem to understand the concept of betting a being better play if you planned to call anyway, but in this case, folding was better still. I have never seen someone lay down trips like you were trying to get the Magoo to do here, especially not a Magoo. Come back from fantasy land and join the realist's club.
Things aren't so bad though, you only really lost 12$ more than you had to. Yesterday I went all-in against the same guy multiple times during the no limit Holdem tournament, and he beat me every time. Twice he had hands that were either inferior or majorly inferior, once he was a slight favorite with JJ vs my AK. Two of these times he limped on the button, first into the pot, when I was in one of the blinds.
Dave in Cali
Hey Dave,
Thanx for your input as always. Just got back from Fantasyland, I'm wearing my Goofy hat with ears just for you :)
How do you recognize the SUPERMAGOOS in the cardroom? Is this concept sort of Freudian with LAP, Magoo, and SUPERMAGOO? Or will the SMs be wearing red capes?
Be careful not to confuse them as Sklansky-Malmuth disciples :)
LOL, see ya later! Mike
PS: If Sklansky and/or Malmuth reads this, I'm just being facetious. I have nothing but the utmost respect for both of you and what you've contributed to the poker industry. I'm sure all others who use this forum will agree.
Hey, don't give the big cheezes too much credit, or their heads will get bigger and bigger till they explode. Everyone needs to get razzed now and then. After all, we're all Super-Geniuses here, not just the Super-Magoo type players. Just ask any one of us! Self-proclaimed!
Actually, if you can't spot a real life Super-Magoo at your table within five minutes, you are not paying nearly enough attention....
Dave in Cali
you are in BB with KQo, and there is a raise and reraise preflop before it gets back to you. Do you call or fold? I folded. Did I make the right move?
Thanks
gamblerbri
You sure did. With most players a raise and a rereaise preflop means you are up against at least one, probably two hands to wich you are an underdog. Like any pair to wich you are a small dog and AK and AQ wich u need to get really lucky to beat.
Against anything but maniacs or morons. Yes.
Sincerly, Andreas
It depends on who the raisers are. If both are solid what hands can they have that you aren't dominated by? Normally a 3 bet by a solid player indicates QQ-AA or AK so a fold is in order.
If one of the raisers is shaky and a couple of others are in I may see the flop, but 19 times out of 20, this hand is in the muck.
Fold unless they are total maniacs. You're out of position, and probably against at least one hand that dominates you. And you can't be sure there won't be another raise.
Yes, you made the right play. In fact, unless the three bettor is a total jack-off, about the only hand you should play here is QQ and perhaps AKs (and, of course, AA and KK) UNLESS you know the pot is going to be contested by five or more players.
hello everyone,
When figuring your odds on the turn, when dividing how much to bet is to you by the size of the pot do you only divide the current bet to you or do you also include you flop bet as well? Here is an example. suppose there is $100.00 in the pot and the turn bet is $20.00 to me do I only divide 100/20= 5-1? Or do I need to include the money spent on the flop as well 100/30 which comes out to about 3.25-1 on the turn? This has been causing me some confusion and if some of you guys could clarify this I would be most thankful.
thanks,
C.N.
C.N.,
When you calculate your odds on the turn forget about the flop. Its gone. How much of your own money was put in on the flop is irrelevant.
In your example, with a $100 pot (before the turn) and facing a twenty dollar bet, your odds are (the pot) plus (the bet you are facing) divide this sum by the bet. So its (100 +20)/20= 6-1.
If the pot is $80 and the bet is $10 and a second person calls the $10, you count both bets. Now, its (80+10+10) / 10= 10-1.
Rememeber, you add the pot to the bets you are facing as they are part of the pot now too.
So in a practical use, lets say you have a flush draw, you need about 4.2-1 (if you dont count implied odds which is just the money you figure to win on the river when you hit). So if the pot is $20 and the bet is $10 you are getting (20+10)/10=3-1, which isnt enough (remember no implied) to call.
Regards.
I've been playing poker for about 5 years. Most time I play 4/8 to 8/16 Hold'em, occasionally play 15/30 or 20/40. Over the last two years, I tried playing for living and made between 20,000 to 30,000 a year. I like the card rooms that I have been playing, because they take $3 rake from the pot instead of taking collection from the button like LA casinos do. But I'm always thinking about moving to LA, I love to live in big cities. My question is: Is it possible to beat low limit games (from 4/8 to 9/18) while casino take extra money from the button? If you are a low limit winning poker player , I would like to hear about your story or comments. Thanks.
Think about it, you pay the "button" 4 times an hour, thats $12.00 per hour if you play 3/6 or 4/8, and perhaps $15-$16 for 6/12 and 8/16. You will have to win more than the "button drop" if you are to beat the game.
I put in about 100 hours per month (for the past two years) in LA and I play low limit (4/8, 6/12 and 8/16) at the various clubs. I find that like most low limit players I can beat the game but not the "button".
My goal is to continue to record my play, continue to review different hands I play and continue to read as much as possible. Who knows if I am patient and I improve my game, I may one day be able to beat the "button".
You can beat it. But for tight players it is hard. Some places charge $3.50 on the button and it is dead money. At 8/16 or lower, I think it would be next to impossible to make a living, (20k-30k after taxes) playing in these games. I mean when you calculate out, you have to win about 25-30k to break even if you are a full time player. The good news is that there is always a good game at all limits because of the populaton in LA. I have played at commerce, Hollywood park, and Hawaiin Gardens. I like the structure at HG the best because there is no small blind and you only have to bring in one bb and the button charge. It saves money in the long run. Thanks TL
Let me tell you something which you probably already know. The dead drop on the button is much worse than a drop on the flop for a player like you. You DEFINITELY pay 3$ every round when you pay the dead drop. If you play in "drop on the flop" games, you only pay when you win a pot. The amount of money coming OFF the table is the same, but the amount of money coming out of your stack will wind up being much less in drop on the flop games, assuming you are a tight player. Somehow I don't mind having paid 3$ nearly as much when I win a pot, but if I had to pay it every round, the game would be difficult to beat. If the game is tight and there's a drop on the flop or dead drop, you might as well go flush your money down the toilet. Now if you play in bigger games, the dead drop starts to become beatable, as long as they don't keep increasing it. A 3$ dead drop in 15-30 is not nearly as much of a drain as it would be in 3-6. If you intend to live in LA and play poker for a living, you better play higher than low limits if you want to beat that dead drop.
Dave in Cali
Mason,
In very loose low-limit games, is it still possible to win if you make it a general policy to not raise with AK type hands if a raise will fail to thin the field? Should suited big cards be raised even if many player's have called in from of me?
I was about to offer some expert advice, but you only want Mason to reply right? Why limit your replies to one man?
Miles...So What.
Agreed. I'm about sick of these "questions for mason".
The answer is you should always raise AK except maybe in late position with a lot of limpers before you. In this case you aren't limping because AK has lost value, but because you would rather be bet into and be able to raise to knock people out on a favourable flop. If you raise preflop everyone will probably check to you and then be able to take a card off for one bet. OTOH, if people on your table don't tend to check to the raiser, go ahead and raise.
Chris
I agree with Chris. Also if "you" don't raise (in "any" situation that it is correct); the "you" are allowing your opponents (who shouldn't be calling) a better price to play their trash.
Gene (holdemdude)
I agree with chris. In early position I would always raise even in a loose game. You might thin the field some. With many limpers, you have to look at the raise as a value bet. If you hit your flop you can fire and win a bigger pot. But if you miss you might get a free card that can improve your hand. Also, even though you have limpers in front of you, you still might be able to eliminate one or more of the players behind you. The only position that I would probably never raise with this hand is in the BB with many limpers. TL
4 Handed online 1-2$ game. 1 fairly tight player, 2 that are pretty loose.
I'm in the SB As Kd.
UTG folds. Fairly loose player (FLP) next to him calls (he's been calling with plenty of weak hands, and has usually been hanging in there too long aswell).I raise (this is purely a value raise, since fairly loose player 2 is in the BB).BB folds (Wow, impressive).FLP calls.
Flop: Ts Tc 5s
Not a great flop, but not bad.I bet, FLP calls.
Turn: Th, Board: Ts Td Th 5s
Interesting card, it reduces the chances of him having a T atleast.I bet, FLP calls.
River: 8d, Board: Ts Td Th 8d 5s
Now this is the key question, should I bet Big Slick for value here? I feel that he'll probably call with any pocket pair, any ace and he might even call with some kings.
We both check and I outkick his A7o.
Comment away...
Sincerly, Andreas
I like the river check rather than the bet. You will probably lose more than you would win if you bet here and get called, but if you check and he checks you will probably win most of the time. Also, if you check and he bets, you should call every time, at least against this particular opponent. You might induce a bluff with a weaker ace or some other piece of cheese. I would think checking would overall be a better move in this situation on all fronts.
my 2 cents.
Dave in Cali
Paradise 3-6. I'm in the BB with Js 8s. All fold to the SB who of course raises. I call.
(Is this hand good enough to defend against a raise from the SB? How low can I go?)
Flop is 6d 3c 6h.
SB bets. I don't believe he has any of this, so I call. (In retrospect, maybe I have to throw in a raise here? Or do I just fold because I don't have anything? Raising seems expensive because then I sort of have to bet the turn.)
Turn is the Qd.
Now the SB checks. I can't let him get away with betting, then checking, can I? So I go ahead and bet. He calls.
River is the Ts.
The SB checks again. Now I figure I will lose to an A or K if I check, so my only chance is to bet and hope he folds.
I bet, he calls and takes the pot with his A.
How should I have played this?
It really bothers me when I lose a bunch of money with a crappy hand when I didn't hit anything. How should I have played it differently? And if the answer is "fold before the flop" , then what hands should I be defending from the BB?
As Clint Eastwood remarked in "The Enforcers", "a wise man knows his limitations".
It looks like you were confused and outplayed on the hand. Why get yourself into situations where you are going to be outplayed?
Advice: Correct (IMO)
Quote: "Magnum Force", and it's: "A man's got to know his limitations."
Nope. It was the one with Hal Holbrook and David Soul with the renegade cops.
"Why get yourself into situations where you are going to be outplayed?"
So are you suggesting that I fold pre-flop? I had a reason why I did what I did at each point, but I just don't know if it is correct.
>So are you suggesting that I fold pre-flop?
If you are going to be outplayed and feel lost in the hand, then getting out is a reasonable course.
Let's look at this from the SB's perpective:
You raise from the SB with Ax and get called. The flop is 663. You bet and get called. A Queen hits and you check and then called a bet. A Ten hits and you check and then call a bet.
Your opponent has called a pre-flop raise, called the flop and bet every street. You can't beat any pocket pair, any 6, any 3, any Q, or any T. You can only beat a bluff. But you called anyway.
I don't think anyone who does this is outplaying anyone. Sure he won the hand but your analysis is innacurate, IMO.
Give Sammy a break. They both played it badly.
KJS
>They both played it badly.
Yep. But the SB wasn't the one asking for advice.
J8s is a good enough hand to call with here, but you should not expect to take it to the river unimproved every time.
Heads up like this you want to hit a pair and the J could give you a decent pair. J8s gives you a few more outs with straight and flush possibilities if you don't hit a pair.
However, when you don't hit anything you probably need to get away in most cases, but it depends on the player. Obviously this guy was going to see the river with any Ace. I would be more inclined to bet here though than I would with an A-high since then I can check it down and maybe win whereas with J-high you probably can't a lot of the time. You have to be successful about 25% of the time. Randomly betting 25% of the time when you don't have a good read is the game theory solution.
If you want to give yourself a better chance to win unimproved you have to get more agressive early. For example, I sometimes make this play in the BB: it's folded to the SB and I have a playable hand. I hit "reraise any in turn" as soon as it gets to the SB. That way as soon as he hits raise I've reraised him, look strong and have position.
I'll also make this play on the button and SB sometimes with a playable hand in the assumption that the CU or button respectively wil either 1) try to steal and so I get in position for the resteal, 2)limps which is really weak and I put myself in a position to steal or 3) folds and then I'm trying to steal which I would do anyway, but the auto-raise makes it look like I had planned to raise before it was folded to me anyway which should give the impression of a very strong holding and make a steal easier.
If anyone tries this, let me know how it works for you. It's one of those things that is unique to on-line play.
Regards,
Paul Talbot
An interesting post and a great reply. I will try this out... ;)
This is what the forum should be about. Common problems we all go through and thoughtful answers. I am surprised no one has said "PP rigs the hands so BB J8 suited hands never hit anything."
Miles...So What.
J8s in BB can't be folded against a single raise, particularly when this raise is coming from the only position which gives you position for the rest of the hand; small blind.
On the flop, it's very close between folding, calling and raising. Calling, not surprisingly, is probably worst. If there had been a spade in there on a similar flop, folding may win the vote for worst move.
On the turn it's close too, but remember that checking isn't disasterous, as your opponent have just "told" you that both an eight and a jack on the river will be good, and that is six free outs. It's sort of waving the white flag back at your opponent (he's already done it), but that's no shame, you called pre-flop getting 3:1, and will close to 50% of the time flop either pair, open-ended straight draw, gutshot straight draw w/one overcard or the flush draw. This was just one of those times the community cards didn't help your hand.
By checking the turn you are not ruling out a river bluff bet, remember if the turn is checked, your opponent is getting very poor odds for a call on the river with just Ace high.
You must also keep strongly mind to punish his 'keep honest' calls by value betting for instance a rivered pair of eights here. At low-limit, many players fail to variate between bluffing and marginal value betting. Both moves become far more correct if mixed up nicely.
lars
Sammy,
I think the pre-flop call is OK but you need to have a game plan for the rest of the hand. This will help you avoid getting into these "I don't know what to do so I'll call" situations. A couple rules like "I need a pair or good draw to see the turn" or "I'm raising the flop with anything decent to put pressure on" are good to consider if you know your opponents play.
In this case, I would raise the flop. It is not very likely that your sole opponent has a 6. If they do, most LL players will call and then bet out the turn or reraise. Both options give you an option to fold for 2 SB. Of course, folding on the flop is not a terrible option either--do you really want to go much further with J high? Give 'em your $3 and move on. These battles will not happen too often at 3-6 so you don't have to worry about the SB taking shots at you. Calling was the worst option.
When he checks the turn, I would check too. You need some help and a free card is not so bad. Do you know him as a calling station? If so, check for sure. He might bet into you on the river but if he will call the turn and river you are cooked anyway. Check and hope to pair up.
On the river, again you need to know your player. I have found that 3-6 players call too much so I might check it through and concede the pot. Saves you $ on a a hand that you can only win by betting and hoping he folds.
Overall, my theory is to be aggressive early in the hand to get a read on my opponent. If you are unsure, just fold and wait until you have a better situation.
KJS
Calling or raising is fine on the flop, I think. A raise probably won't make him lay down, but it might give you a free card on the turn. Once he checks the turn, I like your bet. Attack weakness. Once called on the turn, I'd give it up. The call is resistance. Your opponent would bet any 3, 6, Q, or pocket pair for sure, right? What about draws? Diamonds, 45, hands like AJ... Well, he'd probably bet or check-raise those too.
So, he's got garbage. What kind of garbage? Well, it was good enough to raise you preflop instead of just folding. So probably an ace or king, which you lose to. He might fold a king or queen. It seems unlikely he would call the turn with an ace, only to fold it on the river. That doesn't make any sense, right? When it comes down to it, the only logical hand that can call the turn but fold on the river is a blown straight draw. But you can beat that, so what's the point of betting?
That makes sense. Once he calls the turn I am in trouble. The reason I bet the river is that I figured there is NO way I can win if I showdown, so my only chance is to bet, but you are right, if he called the turn he won't fold on the river.
I am glad someone agreed with the turn bet though. It seems very weak to let the guy who bet the flop, check the turn. In my opinion, I HAVE to bet the turn whether I have something or not. I figure that the check on the turn will turn into a fold to a bet often enough to make it worth it.
Hi all,
$3-6, loose-typical table
I limp in with AJ offsuit in middle position. 5 players see the flop.
Flop: KQJ rainbow
Blind bets and there is one caller to me. I folded as there were two people left to act behind me. Someone definitely had a higher pair than me and I was possibly up against two pair.
Should the fact that I had 4 outs to a nut straight give me reason to call on the flop?
Getting an ace is no help because it will make someone else a straight with a 10.
So that gives me 6 outs or 7:1.
Did I make a foolish fold?
Thanks, JM
I like your fold. This is a small, unraised pot but you have a lot of opponents. Your hand is almost certainly no good and none of your outs are a clean shot to win the entire pot. Having four outs to the nut straight with only one of your cards working is more like having two outs since you will be splitting the pot a high percentage of the time. I would save my money for a more favorable gambling opportunity.
It was a good fold. Remember that many low limit players will play a-x. If the 10 does hit, you are looking at a split pot possibly even 3 ways. Your only real out is another jack.
Paradise 3-6. Qc Tc in early position.
UTG limps, EP limps, I limp (this is ok, right?), MP limps, LP limps, SB calls, BB checks. 7 players, $21.
Flop 8d 5s Qd
SB, BB & UTG check, EP folds, I bet, MP folds, LP raises, SB & BB fold, UTG cold calls, I call. 3 players, $39.
Turn 4s.
We check to the raiser who bets, we both call.
River 8c.
Checked through. I lose to QJ.
What can I do about this when I am out of position? Fold to the raise on the flop? Make it 3? Then what would I do on the turn. Do I have to call the river if it gets bet? I would sure like to get away from this hand for less than $15. What can I do?
Preflop, your limp is okay in a little game like this where there is very little preflop raising and you usually have several players taking a flop. In a bigger game where pots are frequently getting raised you should fold queen-ten suited in early position.
Once the flop comes, you need to realize a few things. You limped in with this hand hoping to get lucky and catch a straight draw or a flush draw or maybe something better. This did not happen. You have a lot of opponents. There is a two-flush on the table. Your top pair, weak kicker is a very vulnerable holding. When you get raised in one spot and cold-called in another you are frequently playing three outs at best. I think you should consider folding at this point although your pot odds are at about 12-to-1 but a three outer is a 15-to-1 shot. However, the Td may not be an out since it could give someone a flush. There is a slight chance that your hand is good. Calling is marginal.
On the turn, having failed to improve, you have an easy fold at this point. It is too remote that both your opponents are drawing. I would fold for sure at this point.
I think you are right about it being an easy fold on the turn. In retrospect, I probably wouldn't be giving up much if I just let it go on the flop (after the raise).
As for pre-flop, I don't play QTs. However, since BOTH players ahead of me called, I figured my call would entice other people to call and I would be getting great odds to flop some sort of draw. Would you really fold it in that situation at higher limits? Looks pretty good.
I hate getting what I am not looking for.
One move you can try occasionally-- and I do mean occasionally-- is to three bet here, particularly if there's a player inbetween you and the raiser. By three betting you might get the one limper between you out, and if he calls two cold on a board like this (and is any kind of player) you know he has a flush draw, so you can safely muck if the third of the suit hits. If someone caps it you can muck. If your opponents calls the three bet (he will) and then lead bets the turn you can also muck, since most players won't go out on a limb here after you three bet out of position.
On the balance, however, I agree with Jim- just dump your hand. And dump it in a New York minute if the board is co-ordinated (e.g., Q97 with two suits, or something like that).
Sammy
Both of your recent posts point to the fact that you often call when you don't know what else to do. Keep in mind that this is very very often the worst of all your options. You need to play aggressively, meaning raise when you are relatively sure you are ahead and fold when you think you are behind. You will save money in the long run and win more when you have the best. If you fold the winner sometimes, them's the breaks. You'll get it back when others incorrectly call against you.
I agree with Jim on this hand. Either fold to the raise or on the turn.
KJS
If the game was _very_ loose/passive (as it seemed by all the limping) it's an ok limp. Otherwise it's an immediate toss in my book. I play rather conservative though.
Is the bettor solid or is he a maniac that pushes draws to hard? Otherwise think of the hands he might be betting. None of them are worse then yours. The worst he could have is QT as you. Otherwise likely hands are AQ-JQ or sets.
I think that in this spot you can safely fold to the turn bet most of the time. If he was raising for a free card he would have taken it on the turn. You have at most 5 outs (in the unlikely event that he has been slowplaying AA/KK), more likely you have 3 or virtually none.
In all honesty I might be baised by the results but I hope not.
Sincerly, Andreas
This is the problem with playing this hand in early position. Too many bad things can happen and not enough good ones. Were you on the button, you could see all the action in front of you on every street. If you never played non-pair hands lower than Q-J except on the button, you wouldn't be giving up much.
This past weekend saw me having a successful run at 1-4-8-8 at the Ameristar in Vicksburg. These sessions pushed me past the 100 hour mark as a winner at holdem over the last year. All hours were either 1-4-8-8, 3-6 or 4-8. This was my first year playing holdem almost exclusively. Due to work committments etc, this will probably be my last big poker trip until Las Vegas in October.
I played 3-6 at the mirage and 4-8 at Bellagio last year about the same time. Over 4 sessions totalling about 16 hours, I never booked a loss.
I am feeling good about my game and where I am. I would like to move up to 6-12 and 8-16 this next trip. I plan to re-read HFAP and Krigers Holdem excellence between now and October. I have a couple of basic questions...
1) What are the blind structures in these games? 2) Who else spreads 6-12 or 8-16? 3) Will I notice a discerable difference in the level of competition at these levels vs 3/6-4/8?
Any other thoughts/suggestions are appreciated.
The $6-$12 game at the Mirage has the traditional structure with the small blind at $3 and the big blind at $6. The Orleans $6-$12 game has an unusual structure with the small blind being $2 and the big blind being $3. The Mirage $6-$12 is a tighter, more aggressive game than the Orleans $6-$12. Sometimes at the Orleans they play their $6-$12 with a kill to $10-$20.
The only place in town that spreads $8-$16 is the Bellagio. The small blind is $4 and the big blind is $8. The $8-$16 game was put in place because when the Bellagio opened in September 1998 it was agreed that they would not spread the same hold'em games as the Mirage. The Mirage spreads $3-$6, $6-$12, $10-$20, and $20-$40 with an occasional $40-$80 game. The Bellagio spreads $4-$8, $8-$16, $15-$30, $30-$60, and either $60-$120 or $80-$160.
just wondered , as original poster, whether, in general, the 6-12 or 8-16 are tuffer to beat, more tight-aggressive etc., i know games can vary quite a bit, but any help appreciated,,,gl
I don't have any playing experience with the $8-$16 game at the Bellagio. I have very little experience with the $6-$12 game at the Mirage. I would think that the $8-$16 game would be tougher because the stakes are higher. From what I have observed, they are both tight, aggressive games. I think the $6-$12 at the Orleans is better even when they play with a kill to $10-$20.
I played a few hours of Mirage 6-12 and Bellagio 8-16 hold 'em about a month ago (the beginning of June, 2001). Compared to the few minutes of Mirage 3-6 I played and a lot of California 3-6, I would characterize the larger games as tougher, but not significantly so. An average flop sees four to six players.
The players in the 6-12 and 8-16 are more experienced and, thus, don't make beginner's errors, such as misreading the board. They know some plays, how to bluff, etc. Bets and raises typically mean strong hands.
There are, though, some weak players in the larger games: calling stations are somewhat prevalent, as they are in many low-limit games. You can count on a "loose goose" or two (or sometimes even four); players who will play things like Axs or any connector from any position, but not "any two," like 72o.
If you are comfortable playing 3-6 and can adjust to your opponents, I would expect you would be comfortable in the larger games. They are not shark tanks.
Scalf,
I just got back from a trip to Vegas where I played mostly 8-16 at Bellagio. I would describe this game as being a fairly tough game. Players are generally tight and can be aggressive. I think it is a tougher game than AC 10-20. I also played the 6-12 game at Mirage and found it to be similar to the 8-16 game at Bellagio. You get the same players in both games. The 4-8 game, which I dabbled in a little bit, is your typical low-limit game. Oddly enough, my best result was 15-30 at Bellagio but one trip to Vegas is not enough data to make reliable conclusions.
Rahul
john,
I played plenty of 6-12 at the Mirage on my last trip.
The Mirage 6-12 game is tougher than 3-6 but not extremely difficult. One thing to watch is the changing character of the game you are in. There were times that it played just like a 3-6 game. This was usually because 2 or 3 bad players sat in and called too much, played to many hands, etc.. For them this was low limit HE, but not an insult to their wealth. There are plenty of people who are average to bad players that refuse to play the lowest game in the room. There were other times when the game got extremely tight and agressive. There are people who make a living in that game. Higher players will also jump in while waiting for seats or to reload if they took a beating at 10-20. More than once I left the game because there were very few (if any) bad players.
Most often, the game played slightly better than 3-6 but was very beatable. Fewer people saw the flop, raises and position were respected, etc.. Still, plenty of people still played AT to the river after several raises, only to be beat by AK (duh). If you are truly a solid LL player who should be able to hold your own. Watch the table for a bit before you play and get a feeling for the tone at the time. If you see a few or more people making the type of plays you only see at 3-6 then jump in there. If only 2 people are seeing every flop and people are checkraising with a flush draw, you might want to wait a bit. That or jump in but play carefully.
Be sure to put on your "A" game and good luck. Let us know how you do.
KJS
Hi gang,
Here's a hand I played last night that I'd like some feedback on a turn decision.
The lineup is not the most ideal one ... starting with three 2+2ers in seats 1, 2, and 3. David Ottosen has seat one, I'm in seat two, and Jim Roy has seat three. There are two out of town players who seem reasonably solid downtable. There is only one big fish at the table, and the rest of the lineup ranges from loose passive to tight(ish) passive. No real shooters.
PREFLOP
I'm three off the button with QhTh. There are two limpers in front of me, I limp (a little loose for me, any comments from you guys?), Jim Roy limps behind me, cutoff and button limp, SB folds, BB calls.
7 players, 7.5 small bets in the pot.
FLOP: Qs Tc 4h
Hmmm, This flop looks just about ideal for me. Action is checked to me, I bet, Jim calls, cutoff and button call.
4 players, 11.5 small bets = 5.75 big bets in the pot.
TURN: 2c
I bet, Jim now raises (?). Cutoff mucks, button thinks long and hard, then mucks, and it's to me.
So, there's 8.75 bets in the pot. On the one hand, Jim has no way of knowing how strong I am. Conceivably, I might play top pair, two pair, a set, or KJ in an equivalent manner to this point. On the other hand, I cannot see the deuce helping him significantly. So, how strong a hand might he have here? Might he be semi-bluffing the clubs draw? I'm not sure.
For those who haven't read any of Jim's posts, he's a solid player, good at hand reading, a little looser preflop than me (but not outrageously so), aggressive when he has something, and doesn't often get out of line when he doesn't.
Obviously, I'm calling to the end. However, is my hand worth a 3-bet here?
Results to follow,
Dave
So, I decide to 3-bet my top two. Jim thinks a second, then caps. I'm pretty sure at this point that he has a set, although there is a very remote chance we tie. I check and call the river, and get shown TT for my troubles.
Jim actually thought that it might be set over set given my turn aggression.
At the moment, the 3-bet seemed reasonable, although the more I think about that board and Jim's playing style, I wonder whether 3-betting in that spot is just throwing away an extra 2 big bets. QT is about the only reasonable two pair holding he might have. I can't see him slowplaying top pair either. He'd raise QQ, but he probably limps with 44, and maybe TT. I can't see him sticking around to spike 22. Maybe if he holds KcJc he might take a shot, but I can't see him playing too many draws in this manner.
At any rate, just wanted to get the forum reaction/opinion on this hand.
Dave
Dave:
I read your results. The fact that 2 players were behind the turn raiser is certainly relavent in your decision. The hand seemed protected here and I think the 3 bet is overplaying your hand but it easy to say in hindsight. How many times have we seen guys spring to life in a multi-way pot on the turn and show a big hand? Usually always. Of course, in this situation, you have too big a hand to lay down on the turn.
Dale Duguid
Dave:
I haven't read your responce yet.
He could try a move to get you off your hand with something like KJc which would give him an openender and the club draw on the turn. You have to decide if your read is a draw or a made hand on the turn which of course he would spring to life with. Also, he does knows you and as a 2+2 player you are perceived as tight and are the type of player such a move would work on if you held a weak Q. Your decision is player specific.
Dale Duguid
Dave,
I think you're right that you have to call the hand out regardless. He's playing the hand like he has a set. If he had A-Q or K-Q I think he would have raised you on the flop to pressure the field. The fact that he slow-played till the turn means he wasn't too concerned about the draws seeing one cheap card (which screams set to me). I would guess 44s because he would probably raise preflop with QQs, and even TTs, and there are not many Qs and 10s left for him to have.
I don't think he's drawing because he's squeezing out the action behind him, but if he's capable of such a semi-bluff that's another reason to call it out.
So in short, I wouldn't reraise (especially because you're heads up and there's no draws you can trap for extra bets in case you're the best). I would just check-call the river and expect to lose two-thirds of the time.
Whenever a solid player 3 bets me in this situation it screams set. He didn't raise the flop so he's unlikely to have a big Q, and he raises the action out behind him on the turn so he's unlikely to have picked up a draw (although the one hand I would think about would be QcJc). I check and call here.
I didn't know what to think of Jim's hand on this play when he suddenly sprung to life on the turn. Jim is an aggressive player who doesn't slowplay very much AT ALL, so I figured if he had KJ or AQ or similar, he would have been firing left and right on the flop. So, when the deuce hit the turn, and he woke up, the best I could come up with was pocket ducks, but that seemed implausible as well.
I probably would have put Jim on a club draw with a pair, and reraised the turn and paid close attention to how many callers there were when he capped it; the more callers, the more likely he has a big draw; the "immediate profit" concept of betting a good draw into a large field. With 2 other callers, if Jim has a pair and club draw (although its hard for me to figure his flop action in this case; in your case, I'd probably put him on something like QcJc and assume his call on the flop is merely indicative of his respect for you). From his perspective, with QcJc, he would probably be assuming any jack or club as an out, to make 12 outs on the river. With 3 other people in the hand, he is slightly +EV to be getting money in the pot here (if he assumes the callers will keep calling).
As we discussed later, I thought it was an interesting example of the difficulties of playing a hand out of position; when you bet and Jim raises, his raise could mean a lot of things, and your reraise is certainly defensible. However, if you had been in position, and he bet and you raised and he reraised you, his reraise would be an indicator of a much bigger hand than his raise indicates as the hand was played. Had it been him 3-betting it, you would NOT be justified in capping, and in fact would probably be advised to make a tough fold there (and declare Q-10s to be your new "favorite money losing hand"!).
As played, I probably play it the same as you, and I hope on the river that we just have the same hand, but I do some soul searching about the hand later as well.
i dont know if it is correct, but i would 3 bet at least 80% of the time. with the additional 15% of the time, go for a check raise on the river if a semi- non scary cards comes out.
what casino is this, the 6/12 game i play in isnt that hard.
Baccarat casino in Edmonton Alberta
Usually ours isn't that tough either...
Seems to me that Jim could have one of several possible hands.
First, he obviously doesn't have QQ, but he could have been playing pocket fours or pocket tens that way, it would make sense. However, would Jim NOT raise the flop with bottom set in this situation? And if he has tens, would he NOT raise pre-flop? (I don't necessarily think that a pre-flop raise was called for if he had pocket tens). Personally, I would have raised the flop, especially since the bet came from my immediate right, and I can force everyone to call two cold, but Jim may or may not do so in the identical situation. However, his turn raise screams "SET" from most players, because the "typical" player likes to slowplay until the turn with a set. I somehow doubt that Jim is "typical", perhaps he will elaborate on my speculations here.
Another possibility here is that he had a pair and a three flush on the flop and then caught a second club to go with it. However, for him to have a pair, he would have to have a Q, T, or 4. So what suited hands might Jim play that contain these cards? Now if the flop was Qc Td 4h, then I would put him on JcTc, which would fit this theory perfectly. However, I don't think he has QcJc, because he probably would have raised you with top pair, decent kicker. He can't have two clubs AND have a pair of tens, because the Tc is on the board.
Yet another possibly is that he could have something like 5c4c, which would fit this scenario pretty well. But would Jim limp in mid position, with small suited connectors, 4th into the pot, with the cutoff, button, and two blinds yet to act behind him? It does not seem like a completely unreasonable play, depending on the aggressiveness of the players behind Jim. However, I am not sure what Jim's pre-flop standards are, and whether or not he would play small suited connectors in this spot.
Also, Jim could have something like AQo. Would he raise three limpers with AQo? Or would he just call? Then, would he NOT raise the flop, and wait for the turn to raise with top pair? I would think this is a longshot possibility, even though I haven't seen Jim play.
Another hand that would make sense here is KcJc or Jc9c. He probably wouldn't raise the flop with an open-ender and three flush, because he wouldn't want to lose callers. On the turn, a semi-bluff raise into a known 2+2er might make it look like he had a set, and get you to fold.
I am assuming that Jim is not loose enough to play something like Qc2c, so I would also speculate that the duece did not help him, unless it made him a four-flush. Given these possibilities, I would NOT reraise, but instead would just call, then check-call the river. It seems most likely that he has either a set of fours or tens, which beats you, or an open-ender with a four flush, which has a bizillion outs against you. If he did pull a move on you and semi-bluff raise, you might induce a bluff on the river if another club or straight card doesn't come. If a third club comes and he bets into you again, you have a hard choice, but I would probably call with top two, and if it was heads-up I would definitely call.
Interested to see the results
Dave in Cali
1) Don't limp with anything smaller than Q-Js unless you have the button (see Tommy Angelo) or you can see from the action of the player(s) behind you that they are going to fold. This advice will probably be disagreed with by virutally everyone who posts at 2+2. But too many bad things can happen when you have cheesy cards and players behind you.
2) With a flop of Q-T-4, if your opponent had flopped a hand you could beat, he would have raised on the flop to protect his hand. On the turn, it's possible he could have Ac-Jc or Kc-Jc, or has a hand that includes the Qc (although I think he would have raised the flop with this) but it seems more likely he flopped a set of 4s. I'd want to be able to call him down as cheaply as possible at this point, so I wouldn't re-raise. Forego trying to win an extra bet and go into a check-call mode. If he has a set, so bet it. This is the problem with limping without the button; you rarely flop the nuts, but you flop hands that are vulnerable.
I have some thoughts on this hand and apologize in advance for my choppy thinking...
I decided to limp with the TT BTF because if I raise then the pot probably be close to 4 handed which is not ideal for that hand. I wanted to induce more callers and keep the pot small so I can bail for cheap if overcards flop and people start betting into me (especially you with your probable AQ :).
I decided to not raise the flop this time because the flop seemed fairly harmless and I was fairly sure you'd bet the turn. The only problem is that I allow a gutshot in for a little cheaper (but since I have a redraw their odds are not as good as they think). The players behind will also call with a small pocket pair, a 4, or overcards so I wanted them in.
Looking back I can see why, based on past playing experience, you thought a reraise was called for. I often raise TT BTF. And 80% of the time I will jam with a set on the flop since my flop play is extremely aggressive anyways. I will slowplay AQ or KQ occasionally and I also semi-bluff once in a while. You just got unlucky that I actually produced a hand that time!
But I agree with the above posters that this betting pattern usually screams set so you have to be wary. Top two is nice but you have to consider carefully when 3-betting a "solid" (tee-hee) player on the turn on a raggy board. If I have a set you lose 2 more BB, if we have the same then you gain nothing, if I have a club draw then you gain only about 0.8 of a BB, and if I have AQo or KQo I will fold to your turn ultra-aggression.
On the turn when you 3-bet me I was quite shocked. I think I actually licked my chops knowing that I would obtain a bunch of Dave Shaw's dusty chips :) (a true rarity for me since we rarely have a conflict). I put you strongly on 44 and if the river comes Q I will raise you but if it comes 4 I would probably just call.
A couple more points. One, if I have 44 in that situation I just grit my teeth and call your reraise. Two, I think it would be a strong play to fold when I cap the turn.
Jim
3-6, Qh Qc early.
UTG limps, I raise, EP cold calls, LP cold calls, BB calls, UTG re-raises (limp/re-raise, yikes, AA?), I cap, everybody cold calls.
5 players, 20 sb.
Flop Th 9h 6c.
BB checks, UTG checks, I bet, EP calls, LP folds, BB calls, UTG raises (now a check/raise, not good), I call, EP calls, BB calls. 4 players, 28 sb = 14 bb.
Turn is 2c.
BB checks, UTG bets, everyone calls. 4 players, 18 bb.
River 9s.
Final board is Th 9h 6c 2c 9s.
BB folds, UTG bets, I call, EP raises, UTG calls, I call.
What do you think of my play? Specific questions:
1) Is capping pre-flop correct, (even though the limp/re-raise smells like rockets).
2) Is the flop bet correct? I have to call the raise with 25-1 odds to spike a queen, right? Now I am pretty sure he has AA.
3) Should I be folding to the single bet on the turn? I am getting 15-1 immediate odds to call with an overpair. I am thinking I better be damn sure he has AA to fold now. (And the second 9 didn't help either). If you couple the small chance I have the best hand with the small chance I river a queen and add the implied odds, do I have a call here?
4) Should I fold to the single bet on the river now? At this point I am getting 19-1 on a call here. Will he have JJ or something that I can beat 1 in 20 times?
5) Should I fold at the end. At 23-1 it's an awfully big pot to throw away now for a single bet, but what could he possibly be raising with that I have any chance of beating?
Results to follow.
As I suspected, UTG did have AA, and EP had 94s for trips to take down the pot. Yes, he cold called two early with 94s.
if A-A just raises and you 3-bet maybe he doesnt call 3 cold, although he probably would.
My answers to your questions are as follows:
1. Capping with pocket queens in the face of an early limp reraiser is a good way to give back some of your hard earned money in my opinion. You need at least kings and preferably aces to cap in this situation. The limp reraiser is supposed to have AA or KK in this situation based on my playing experience.
2. On the flop, you might as well bet when checked to but when you get called in two spots and then check-raised by the limp reraiser you are definitely playing two outs at best. Notice also that a queen puts three cards in a straight zone meaning that if one of the callers has king-jack or jack-eight then your outs are no longer clean. King-jack especially suited is frequently played by many weak players in these situations. The other problem is the two-flush. You could hit your two outer and still get resucked at the river.
3. You should fold on the turn. The odds are not there to play two outs and you will not win all the time even when one of your miracle cards arrive.
4. Having made the decision to call on the turn, I think you are pot stuck and should call.
5. When the EP raises and gets called, I think you can fold now.
I would have folded on the turn.
Sammy,
I agree with Jim that you made your decision to call out the hand on the turn. It depends on the player UTG, but I've seen many moderate-aggressive players that would play AhKh fast like this. So I think you're maybe getting breakeven pot odds to call.
But once the calling station raises the river, I'm 95% sure you're beat. And once UTG calls I'm 99% sure you're beat. He doesn't have AhKh -- he's must have AA or KK. I wouldn't call that last bet, save yourself $6.
It's a difficult play without knowing the players but when you get check raised on the flop it's very likely you're behind. I call the flop raise hoping to hit or Q or a str8 draw. I fold the turn.
You could've saved a bet on the river when it gets raised. You have a clear fold here, despite the size of the pot.
I'd like to address your question 5. It is rarely correct to fold at this point, since, as you point out, if you win only 1 time in 23 you're ahead of the game. In this case, however, it's virtually impossible for you to have the best hand. UTG has basically announced that he has a big pocket pair. Even if it's jacks and you beat him, the river must have helped EP (or, less likely, he already had a big pocket pair beat). I know there were a lot of chips in the pot to fold for one more bet, but that one more bet saved, when your odds of winning are longer than the pot odds, spends the same as any other $6
Andy, I think you mean you need to win more than 1 out of 23 b/c these are just breakeven odds. I think calling the turn and the river are a mistake here, Once ckeck-raised on the flop I would give him/her credit for KK or AA and call if turn brings no Q I am out of there.
I agree with Jim, fold the turn. Perhaps in california with the abundance of loose-aggressive players who like to limp-reraise with anything you might cap it BTF, but in any fairly sane game, a limp-reraiser almost always has aces, and occasionally has kings. You have to call the raise on the flop, but on the turn, you are getting 15:1 to call, playing a two-outer, and you certainly cannot be sure that your hand will be good if it hits, due to the flush and straight possibilities and loose players. You lost 3 BB more than you should have on this hand, just fold to the one bet on the turn and save your money. On the river, you were clearly beaten by the raiser and the bettor/caller. There was no chance you had the best hand, regardless of pot size, so you clearly had a fold.
Dave in Cali
1/2 table online
I'm in MP with AKo, 1 Caller in EP, I raise, 1 Caller in LP, blinds fold, EP calls
3 Players see the flop.
FLOP: 2 8 3 rainbow
Checked to me, I bet, LP calls after 5 seconds, EP folds. Heads-up with LP. Is his waiting a tell? I thought he wasnt sure if he should fold or call.
TURN: Q
I bet, LP calls.
River: 3
Now I bet again. Maybe he has a pair of 2 or 8's and he will fold to my bet.
Oh no, he called. So I lost...
But....
I showed my AK and won the pot! He hasnt showed his hand.
Now how would you have played this hand?
Thanks.
RA
I think AK is one of the most terrible hands to play without position.
With 3 players (one cold caller behind you), I would bet the raggedy board, hoping to steal the pot right there. With the player behind you calling, you're in a very tough spot.
On the turn there're only 4 BB in the pot. I think this is a good example where position would win (even if he has a worse hand). I would check/fold the turn. IMO it's not worth contesting in this pot without position. I think a lot of people overplay AK, and I think you're one of them.
There probably a lot of people who disagree with me. But I usually only play AK when I hit.
Regards
It depends on how many opponents you have. Against 1 or 2, I play on. But if 3+ people are in, I turn to check / fold.
RA
Ofcourse...If you get the odds to draw, and you almost know for sure that your outs are clean, then ofcourse you should play on. I talk about a different situation, where you dont get the odds to draw, or your outs are most likely not clean.
Regards
Sorry, I didnt read your previous post carefully.
If you're against two opponents, who are weak tight postflop, then you can try to steal more. Against loose postflop opponents out of position, I wouldnt bother. IMO it only adds to your variance, and I think it's about a break-even play.
Regards
With such a raggedy board, I would not be surprised to be called and win with AK high. Notice here that it's only three-way, and the one staying on after the flop is someone who cold-called your raise, and no matter what kind of player he might be, he is then more likely to be playing high cards, even moreso than the early position limper.
I'd play it just the way you did. Probably fold to a raise on the turn, but that is also depending slightly on my opponent. Remember, on a paired, unsuited, no-straight board, AK high is FAR better than average after 4 community cards (if still no pair or better by the river, I guess it's close to average).
I think the river bet is fine too, because if he's anything close to a decent player, he will often bet after you if you check the river, and you really have to call based on the action so far in the hand, and the river card.
I also think it's a weak value bet against AJ, some might call with AT (those rating it highly enough to be cold-calling material will often make this river call too). Poor players could call with any ace or even some king highs here.
Once you get more experienced to three-way-come-heads-up situations (this will take some time at $1/2 and less time at higher limits), you will soon realise that it's nothing close to special about this hand.
Lars
I think the right play here depends on your read of the guy. In general, I agree with the previous poster in that AK is easily overplayed. On the other hand, based on how you describe him, he seems like the kind of player that says to himself "I know he raised with high cards and missed the flop, and I know he'll bet anyway, so I'll call him down." (if he was smarter he'd probably raise you on the flop. and then you'd know that he was raising based on his assessment of your cards, so you'd reraise, and he'd reraise because he knows that you knew that he knew you missed the flop, but then.....oh nevermind) Often, as in this situation, HE CANT EVEN BEAT A THOSE OVERCARDS.
Anyway, this happens a lot in LL, and it usually comes from the same players. Even though this is true, playing the hand this way won't win you much, and I would guess that you would lose maybe half of the time (depending on the type of player you are heads up with).
If you mucked in this situation most of the time, you wouldn't be losing much IMO. By the end of the session you'll get your AK and hit the flop (as long as the poker gods are with you). Save you bets for then...
Just my two cents!
-----Jeff A.
For the 'Please don't overplay AK' group, can you please answer me a few questions.
THREE people see the flop, which you raised pre-flop with AK, one limper and one cold-caller. On the 2-3-8 rainbow flop, first limper checks to you. One guy behind you to act, if he folds you know also hold the button. Is there anyone who wouldn't bet in this spot?
Uh-oh, so button calls that flop bet, getting 7:1, and possibly 8:1. Like that has never happened before. First limper could have been limping with a small pocket pair or something like 87s, yes, but now he folds.
Heads-up on the turn, a Queen. Not a particular scare card. I'd be more worried about a Ten or a Jack here, as that is very likely to give my opponent either a top pair or a draw, both hands he could and should easily raise. So he calls again.
Ok, I'll admit, now I'm 80% certain that I'm beat unless I hit an ace or a king on the river (and yes yes yes, I know that particularly an ace could easily give my opponent aces up). However, quite an amount of that percentage is directed at the possibility that unless I improve on the river, *he* will improve to beat me.
So the river-card pairs the threes. Don't get any scarier than that huh? I am now about 70% I'm beat, and there's no way I'll check/fold this hand. I don't think anyone would. The turn bet is actually more discussable. You aren't losing a lot by slowing down with AK on the turn here, but you are losing pretty much by betting it on the turn and check/folding it on the river.
Instead of check/calling here, I will bet it, as it will be bet behind me if I check virtually every time, but very rarely bluff raised on the river (meaning I can safely lay down against a raise under normal circumstances). Against a good player, I'd be more inclined to check/call though, as he could bluff-raise me, but also because check/calling could win me an extra big bet the times I am ahead, as a good player will rarely call with worse than AK high here, but will often bet if checked to.
lars
"THREE people see the flop, which you raised pre-flop with AK, one limper and one cold-caller. On the 2-3-8 rainbow flop, first limper checks to you. One guy behind you to act, if he folds you know also hold the button. Is there anyone who wouldn't bet in this spot?"
As I said in my previous post, I like his flop bet; I would have done the same. But this is with the intention of stealing the pot right there.
"Heads-up on the turn, a Queen. Not a particular scare card. I'd be more worried about a Ten or a Jack here, as that is very likely to give my opponent either a top pair or a draw, both hands he could and should easily raise. So he calls again."
If he's a tight caller of raises, the Q is a scare card, since you can't beat AQ anymore. If he called with a medium pocket pair, you're still beat (and wont lay down). So I think the Q certainly didnt help your hand, and could very well helped his hand. I wouldnt waste any money anymore. If you play it the way you suggest, I think this is about a break-even play (or even a slightly losing one), and it adds greatly to your variance. Why bother?
"I am now about 70% I'm beat, and there's no way I'll check/fold this hand. I don't think anyone would. The turn bet is actually more discussable. You aren't losing a lot by slowing down with AK on the turn here, but you are losing pretty much by betting it on the turn and check/folding it on the river."
I agree, the turn was decision time.
", I will bet it, as it will be bet behind me if I check virtually every time, but very rarely bluff raised on the river (meaning I can safely lay down against a raise under normal circumstances). "
In my experience, a medium to small pocket pair will often check behind you. I dont think weaker hands will call your bet (the only hand that MIGHT call that you can beat is AJ, I dont think a lower ace will call), and stronger hands dont fold. Especially against tricky players, as you said, I like to check/call.
Regards
"the only hand that MIGHT call that you can beat is AJ, I dont think a lower ace will call"
That was assuming the other player was a little reasonable.
Still can't see what's wrong with the turn bet, unless the opponent is extremely tough and tricky (then maybe let it go, and wait for a better opportunity to play him, after all AK will fairly often catch a pair of better by the turn). This hand is probably only profitably played on through the turn against decent or worse players. Good and very good players will make moves on you that could get you in trouble with hands like these.
The button should've semi-bluff raised his A5 gutshot on the turn, with very likely 7 outs, especially if he's going to pay off a showdown anyway! Catastrophic play.
You are not unlikely to get a small pocket pair off it here either, assuming you will only bet overcards or medium to big pairs here, I don't care if he chooses to call me down with 66 this time, it will make me a lot of money when I'm holding AA, KK, AQ, KQ and needless to say I would also bet Nines, Tens and Jacks heads-up on the turn here.
lars
"Still can't see what's wrong with the turn bet,..."
I dont say it's necesarrily wrong, I just think it's very easy to apply in the wrong situations (against good players for instance), and if you do apply it correctly, it's probably only slightly profitable (or break-even). I just dont want to take that variance for such a marginal play.
Regards
from Paradise (if that's where you played) will show you what he had.
but when he mucks, in the hand history it doesnt show the hand IMOP? or?
RA
Yep, Ive got it. He had Ac 5c
the other playes hand can I only see when there was a showdown?
RA
n/t
Against three opponents it's quite a normal hand. The Q is a bad card but he didn't raise so you still look good.The only thing I would do different is check-call the river (unless I know he's the type of player to call me down with A-J- then i bet out). His call on the turn indicated he was going to call you down and not many players will muck a better hand than yours on the river.
With a cold caller behind you I would think you are beat when you didn't hit the flop. He must have called with A-J or something DUMB like that for a raise. I would have bet the flop and depending on your player check and fold on the turn. If your opponent was any good he would have raised the flop you would (99%) fold. There aren't enough bets in there to play the hand out.
Typical game for me, loose and semi-aggressive. It's only 7 handed at the moment. I have AcAd in the SB and raise, 4 see the flop.
Flop is Qd 7d 6d. I bet into the field to see where I'm at. This is not a very good flop for my hand, to say the least, and I don't want to pay a lot of money, just to lose to a flush. However, I can't just up and fold, because I probably still have the best hand, and there are only four players. There are 8 small bets in the pot, plus the SB, so I figure the one small bet is worth spending to see where I'm at. If raised, I plan to fold. I know sometimes people raise with a single high diamond in this situation, but I'm still going to fold anyway. If I am raised, I won't know where I'm at, and even if they don't have me beat, they likely have a good draw anyway. Well I bet the flop and two call. I think both of these players have a diamond, but not necessarily an ace. I am putting them both on a flush draw for now.
The turn comes a small blank. I bet again and they both call.
The river is another blank. I bet and get called one time. I show my hand and he mucks. I assume he probably had a queen, but he didn't show his hand.
Comments welcome.
Dave in Cali
I would not have bet the river, although I am starting to rethink my river value bets. I may be losing out here.
My reasoning here is that if I flop the nut flush or a K high flush, I may wait to the river to pop you if I have position. This way you may be commited to call the river bet, and I get 3 BB from you instead of 1 BB if I raise the turn and you fold. The nut flush is not a very vulnerable hand heads up. It is also not uncommon that your opponent holds a flush... he has to be calling with something.
Just My Thoughts,
Derrick
i am confused. your post says you have 
and the flop comes: 
giving you an overpair and the nut flush draw. how can you not call a raise on the flop?
Cool graphics!
I think we can assume, from the title of the post, that Dave made a typo and did not have the Ad.
I like his play. No free cards here. Someone is much more likely to have one diamond than two and more likely to raise on the turn if trying to slow-play than wait until the river. Keep firing until they show you the error of your ways.
l
"There are 8 small bets in the pot, plus the SB, so I figure the one small bet is worth spending to see where I'm at. If raised, I plan to fold."
I think you made a typo, because you have the nut flush draw with Ac Ad, with a flop: Qd 7d 6d.
Dave,
I think you played this fine throughout, including the river bet. Since three of you were involved in the hand, I assume that a small flush should raise at some point to make one or both draws pay. Depends how passive the players are.
BTW, played a similar hand, but with different results, a couple weeks ago. After four limpers, I raise from the small blind with KK. Rather than bet out, I checkraise the flop, bet the turn when a blank falls, and fold when the fourth of the suit hits the river. The player who takes the pot flashes the K of the suit, along with an offsuit seven. He says, "You let me draw out on you." I was laughing so hard I couldn't talk.
John
Recently I've been playing 4/8 and losing. None of my draws are coming in. Open-ended straights, flush draws, they just aren't happening. That's ok though ... it'll even out in the end if I play long enough to get to the end.
The thing is I'm playing VERY VERY tight. A typical hand to toss is KQo in early position, but I play it for a single bet in late position if there's at least 3 callers up to that point and I don't think there will be a raise. This is a single big blind game.
But when I do come in and raise BTF, no one even notices. They all just call the raise - plenty of callers!
So, the question is - given that my opponents call no matter what, am I still not playing tight enough? Heck, sometimes I'll go three complete rounds only seeing the flop when I'm in the big blind.
Thanks,
-Michael
"Heck, sometimes I'll go three complete rounds only seeing the flop when I'm in the big blind."
youre not as tight as you think you are.
brad
Michael, Tight play is IMO is usually good. When you are playing against other good players they will notice your tightness and respect your raise. Bad players sit at all limits but the lower you go, the more you get. The first thing to remember when playing low limit is how to adapt to the game you are in. What kind of game is it?
Then you want the players to fear you. If you are playing too tight, they won't even notice you are there, so when you raise, they just call.
I would recommend playing looser when you have position. Take a few chances like raising w/bad cards. Do this only w/ posistion. With weak players, you need to show them that you are the best player at the table, (not the tightest) and you do this by mixing up your play and confussing them.
Tight players call people who do this maniacs. But a good player will be very selective when he decides to make an ill advised play. Good luck
IMO you should be more inclined to play KQo with less callers then with more callers in a late position. You have a good chance of flopping top pair with a good kicker. The less callers the more likely the hand will hold up. I muck this hand in a late position if there are lots of callers. The reason is even when I am best on the flop... I am sucked out on too often. I have tracked my results with this hand, and it is definitely a loser with a lot of callers.
If your game is loose (which it sounds like), I would routinely muck AJo and KQo early, call with the suited equivalent and raise AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, and AQ. From a late position or from the blinds, I may often play super tight with my raises, only raising AA, KK, QQ, AKs if there are already a lot of limpers. This means when you are on the button and there are a lot of callers and you hold AKo it may be alright to limp, knowing you won't drive anyone out to the pot. Now when you flop top pair pound it hard on the flop... hoping to drive out players.
Just some thoughts,
Derrick
if you can get away with playing premium hands only and still get action when you play them, then by all means continue to do so. no tricky plays are needed. as far as hand like KQo, derrick is right this hand plays much better short handed. remember, big cards go up in value when a small number of players see the flop and go down in value when a large number of players see the flop. if your game is really tight, then you might want to raise in early position to thin the field. and if you are in late position and have just 1-2 limpers i think it is definatly worth a raise to buy the button and to force the blinds out. remeber this play loses value if the blinds are loose and will call your raise anyway. if many people are seeing the flop then suited connectors and small pocket pairs go up in value. if you can expect 5-6 people seeing the flop, then i would play these from almost any position. even more so if your opponents are loose-passive before the flop. it also sounds like your opponents will call you down when you flop a good hand. these are the best opponents. they don't make you pay for their hands and then pay you off when you make a hand. all of this stuff can be found in HPFAP. if you have not read it, then you are at a serious disadvantage.
good luck, bama gambler
Are these loose games? If so read the section (chapter?) in Mason and David's book (HEFAP 21st century edition). Most low limit games are pretty loose so reading this chapter will be of value to you. I would also recommend reading the whole book.
IMO, folding KQo WHEN you can get in for a single bet is not right (in any position). As long as you play right after the flop I think you are giving away money not playing it.
I've gone as many as 5 rounds without playing a hand, except when knocking on the button. I think folding KQo is a bit too tight, but you know your players better than I do. When you see the flop and are in the lead, play aggressive. Make THEM pay to beat you, in the long run you'll be way ahead.
The game is short handed with 5 players. The game was loads of fun. I was having a great time, and so was the rest of the table. There was a lot of fooling around, joking about "skill" on major longshot suckouts, and the occasional straddle raise. My aces got cracked by trash, then I cracked his aces with trash in my BB, then made a crack about "I will have my revenge!!!". One guy said to me once, "what, no straddle", so I went ahead and straddled, just to stay in the spirit of the game. Heck, it's not always all about money… have some fun once in a while!
It's a terrific short handed situation for me. There is one fairly mediocre player 2 seat to my left, and one fairly decent player two to my right. The other two players are very loose and very unskilled, and are playing even worse now that the game has become short handed. Both of the unskilled players can fold a hand, so I would not classify them as "calling stations", but they definitely call too much, especially on the first two rounds.
I am in the BB with Th9h. UTG calls, button raises, SB folds, I call, UTG calls. 3 handed.
Flop is king high with two hearts. Checked to the button, who bets. I call and UTG calls.
Turn is the Td, giving me a pair to go with my flush draw. I check and UTG checks. Button bets and I check-raise as a semi-bluff. UTG folds and button stops to think. He hesitated for quite a while, but finally called.
The river was a third heart, not pairing the board. UTG bet out of turn. I decided to just call because I thought he might have made a bigger flush, since he was so happy to see that river card. He had made a straight on the river and I took the pot.
A semi-bluff raise can be a better play than just calling, even if you have proper odds to call. However, there has to be some chance that your opponent will fold, and you will win the pot right there, in order for the semi-bluff raise to be a better play. The chance of your opponent folding doesn't have to be very high in order to change your EV enough to make the play worthwhile.
Comments welcome.
Dave in Cali
a lot of times short handed you can jam on the flop (even out of position like that) because no one will think much of calling 2 cold because it is short handed. good way to vary your play. got to know your table/players though.
brad
The only thing I worry about in that situation:is it likely that I will be reraised. If you know your people as the previous poster stated, then your probably in good shape. Another thing especially short handed; is there someone there to play back at you? This is also a function of the people your playing with. I am not sure of the math but if someone is inclined to reraise, other than a maniac, then the play loses it profitability.
Ok I was playing 8-16 with a kill. (I know, this message board is for 6-12 and lower, but I usually play those limits and post here so I thought I would post it here)
This was a good game 5 bad players 2 good 2 average. It was fairly loose passive, but for some reason it had become very tight.
This pot was now a kill making the game 16-32. The killer is one seat to my left on the button.
All fold to me and I raise with 8-2o hoping to steal the dead money. SB folds, BB calls and killer calls. pot $96 Flop: 9s,8s,5d. BB bets, I call, killer calls. pot $144. Turn: 2s. BB now checks. (he is not good enough to induce a bluff with a flush so I know he doesn't have it) I bet. Killer calls, and bb calls. pot $240 River 10c. All check. BB turns over JTo, and killer turns over As Kd. I take the pot down with two pair.
Now I know all of you think I got lucky and that is true. But IMO when you make plays like this against bad players, it makes them crazy. Plus it is great advertising for the good players.
Lastly, some nights you do not get enough premium hands to play so you have to try and steal. If you don't you will just get eaten by the rake and the blinds. Most of the players at the table will not remember all the hands you folded, but they will remember seeing you drag a huge pot with a piece of crap like 8-2o. Comments... Thanks
when trying to steal you have to leave yourself some outs. 8-2o is not a hand that leaves you many outs. anyway you tried and got caught, but how did you call the big blind bet on the flop knowing that the killer was still to act behind you. what if he raised? would you have called the raised? you were caught in the middle! you have to fold this hand on the flop (really you have to fold if BEFORE the flop). you got lucky. REALLY lucky!
bama gambler
You are right!! All of your points are correct. The reason I called the flop is,(unlike before the flop) now I had outs. The killer was very passive. If I feared a raise, I would not have called. In fact, I almost raised here to try and eliminate him and make it heads up. At worst I knew I was up against top pair on the flop, but I guessed right and the original better was on a draw. Another reason why I called the flop, with the other players in question, they might have checked the turn, if they did not improve. That had been happening a lot with those two players. I thought I might get to see the river for free. Thanks
I just can't see you turning a profit with these hands, but if they work as advertising maybe you can turn them profitable later when you do complete. Everytime I leave the casino, I play all most any 2 cards, for my last hand, but I play them well. If you do connect and drag a big pot down, it is like rubbing salt in the wound b/c you will be leaving. This is truly the only time I ever gamble so don't post back and give me every reason in the book I should not-I know.
Raising with 8-2 in any position/situation is a money loser- plain and simple. If you think you can get it back in future bets, good luck.
Deception is important, but playing 8-2 for a raise is not a good wat to develop it.
Hopefully you added a password to this, enabling you to delete it.
And next time, put N/T in the Subject line, so people know not to open it.
Just a few tips from your Uncle Fester.
I played at Mandalay Bay this weekend (4-8 & 6-12) and noticed a lot of players, most that seemed to be regulars, slow playing high pocket pairs. Sometimes this strategy worked, sometimes not. I also watched an 8-16 game at Bellagio and saw the same plays. Is this a normal strategy on low-limit games in Vegas or was I just playing with some poor players?
I don't know if slowplaying big pocket pairs is a common thing amongst "regulars" in vegas. the times I have played there I haven't made that observation. However, there are a lot of "regulars" in vegas that are also borderline "rocks". Against a bunch of totally moronic tourists who haven't a clue, even the stonyest of rocks can eek out a small profit.
Slowplaying big pairs on a regular basis is collosally stupid. There. I said it. My opinion is rendered.
Dave in Cali
A big pocket pair is by no means a slowplaying hand, you must charge them to see the flop even if you know they will all pay. If they all come along so be it and you will probably be sucked out on more, but those times they stand up your arms will be tired from raking those big pots. I might be wrong but I can not see a wining player consistently doing this.
Boy, I like this question! All kinds of room for opinion, so here's mine.
Depending on game texture, slow playing big pairs can be absolutely correct. If more than half the table are slow playing big pairs, imo, they are playing wrong.
Mike
Sorry Mike I think you are in the minority here. Slow playing big PP espcailly in low limit games where most players are so observant of the game they wouldn't notice if the guy next to him was on fire does nothing but let bad hands (and the blinds) in cheap. With a raise you might knock out a few hands and make the pot odds for suited connectors (9-10, 10-J ect.) unfavorable. Assuming they are held by the few players who sit in these limits to feed on the fish. Also remember your big PP play better against fewer players.
As I said depending on the game. In most LL games where I play, raising does little to knock out players. There is a $4-8 w/ a half kill I play in, and there is nothing like seeing 6 people taking the flop with the kill for $16.00. I do not enjoy being AA in this situation, maybe 89s.
If the game is loose and you play mostly and ram and jam with big pocket pairs, what happens to your variance? It goes through the ceiling, and you probably can not show a profit.
On the other hand I think, if the table is playing poker and not gambling, big pp are okay. But if too many at the table are playing group 1-2 hands, what good is a big pp if it's not AA? Then I think you need to loosen up and enjoy those suited connectors and middle straight cards.
As for being a minority, that's okay. What works for me may not work for you and vice versa. It doesn't mean it's wrong, just different. jmo
Mike
Mike, It sounds like you are getting bummed out when you get AA in these situations. I must confess; I don't feel comfortable with them either in a large multiway pot but when you do win these pots they are huge. I know there are problems like when to get away and everyone is drawing on you, but I know you must charge them to see the flop-raise,raise,raise! These cards only come along 1 out of 221 hands, I don't think you are taking full advantage of them if you don't raise. As for your variance going up, why should you try to control it? If you want the swings to be smaller don't play in these loose games-remember its these big swings that keeps the losers coming back. Just my thoughts-Nick C.
Paradise, fresh $2/4 table.
Few reads on any players, I'm dealt QQ in mid-position, and raise two early limpers. One cold-caller and one caller in the blinds.
Flop: 8-8-7 rainbow.
Checked to me, I bet, all call (I'm guessing something like three or four open-ended and gutshot straight draws).
Turn card: 4, and the second diamond. Ouch. Did someone catch the low straight?
I bet, three callers, no raise. Fine. Not giving up those draws are you? I expect two or all to drop to a blank on the river.
River: 4, no flush.
Checked to me, I bet for safe value I think. Surprisingly, two callers. What on earth could these people hold I wonder?
First caller mucks to my Queens, other caller shows...
Guesses?
54o.
Did is not a bad beat whinge, but found it quite hillarious for a player to do just one single thing during an entire hand, and not just any hand, the guy scoops a very nice pot by simply...calling.
And I'd (seriously) like some comments with regards to this player's chasing. Five big bets or so in the pot before the flop sure is worth chasing pretty various holdings with for that half a big bet on the flop, but the turn call...correct too?
Not raising the river? Suicidal?
lars
You wrote:
"Did is not a bad beat whinge".
Not sure what that is but this is a bad beat story.
You played fine. They played badly pre-flop and on the the flop but correctly on the turn. River play was typical for a bad player. Feel better?
KJS
This guy read the most advanced holdem book of them all...
Checking and calling your way to victory
By C. Ima Magoo
It's a highly underrated book, certain to provide great profit for even the most passive of calling stations. Mason and Dave wouldn't publish it because it had too many advanced poker secrets in it, and they didn't want the general public to get ahold of all that knowledge, because it would make the games they play in too tough. Don't you know ANYTHING about poker?
Dave in Cali
Well, you don't say where the guy with 54 was sitting in relation to you. That's an important little detail.
He clearly made a bad call preflop (either limping before you or coldcalling your raise or calling a raise from the blinds).
But his flop call with the gutshot was not criminal especially if his call closed the betting 9although my guess is that he wasn't thinking along those lines per se).
His turn call again is not completely out of whack if his call closes the betting (meaning that no one likely has an 8) and he is reasonably sure that the 6 may be an out giving him 6 outs (in reality, it is not likely that you can be so reasonably sure given that T9 could easily be out there with 3 turn callers and also given that hitting the 6 of the backdoor flush suit may be bad news).
Of course, he ought to have raised on the river.
Now, don't start thinking that I advocate chasing along like fish do hand in and hand out. But the fact of the matter is that his plays on the flop and turn can be justified depending on where he was sitting in relation to you....welcome to the world of pot odds:-)
skp,
do you think drawing to ignorant end of straight can be justified by pot odds? i don't think so. if he hit his gut-shot straight, then i bet he would have lost to a higher straight. his only outs were 4-4 and maybe 5-5. this guy is a idiot, period.
bama gambler
I agree. In practice, when three players call the turn, one has to think that a T9 is likely out there and therefore hitting a 6 may not be a great thing (I say that in my initial post).
Nevertheless, the call isn't as bad as it seems particularly if the others are also terrible players who may be calling the turn bet with all kinds of stuff including Ax.
I know this is a HE forum, but a funny thing happened at a 1-5 7cs table while I was waiting for a HE seat the other night.
I bought my usual $150 in chips and sat down at the 7cs table waiting for a HE seat to open. I was sitting 2 right of the dealer and immediatly noticed a drunk maniac sitting across from me. Guy was playing every hand and winning lots of chips even for a 1-5 table. He had about $200 in front of him when I looked at my hole cards and had QQ Q.
Left of dealer was low and brought it in for a dollar, maniac raised $5 with Jc showing, next 3 folded, I called (slow playing the trips), and right of dealer folded.
4th street brought the maniac the 10c and me a 6d. He bet 5, I called.
5th street gave the guy a 5c. He bet 5, I called.
6th street was a blank for the maniac, and 6h for me. He bet 5, and I raised my full house $5, he called and grumbled something about my "lucky 2 pair".
The dealer dealt the river, a blank for me, but I could see the gleem in the maniac eyes as he had hit his club flush.
He bet 5, I raised, he re-raised, I re-raised him back. At this point the guy says, "Ya know flush beats 2 pair.", and re-raises me again.
Here is where I finally got to use one of Mike Caro's classic lines. I said, "I don't think you have that flush, and I'm NOT going to let you bluff me out of it." I then re-raised.
I wasn't worried about 4 Jacks or 4 Tens, because I had seen some on the board on 3rd street.
By now, the dealer had caught the attention of the floor, who had quietly walked over behind the guy. The maniac re-raised, and I gave it right back. This kept up and we went down to the felt, I had put my entire $150 into the pot.
I turn over my full house, the maniac turns beet red, slams his cards on the table and starts HOWLING! He's screaming, "F$%K you! And F#&K this casino!" At which point the floor asks the guy to keep it down and watch the language.
Being the drunk Maniac that he is, he picks up his remaining $50 and walks, spewing obsenities all the way out. Just though I'd share. It's not everyday you see this in a 1-5 game.
ive seen it in 1-5 plenty. and ive seen it way more in 1-2 HE
I have recently read Lee Jones' "Winning Low-Limit Hold'em and have noticed that it very rarely says to slowplay hands. It says play flopped trips fast and flopped straights fast and even flopped nut-flushes. Is slowplaying only necessary when skilled players are in the game to try to draw more money out of them? In the book Jones says they are going to call anyways and you will still have them trapped by betting the flop. And I know some of this is very table dependant but just wondering on some general tips of when to slowplay. All comments are greatly appreciated.
SS
It's my opinion that slowplaying in low limit-games is almost worthless. People call you with anything anyway. I would almost always bet or raise in late position even with Royal-flush. The only time i think it could be a good idea to slowplay is if you have a maniac to your left whos raise will finally scare some players from calling. Let him bet your hand and trap anybody on the expensive streets. And only do it if you are sure a free(cheap) card will not hurt you. At the higher limits you can sometimes slowplay again 1or2 opponents with hands far away from being the nuts.You might want to read my post on the mid-limit-site.
Slowplaying is usually a bad idea because you are giving players correct odds to draw to gutshots and whatever and then when you pull the trigger on the turn, slam, they come right back over and cost you the pot along with an extra bet or two.
There are two general ideas on slowplaying. First is to allow people to hit a hand so they will pay off your much stronger hand. This one worked versus me today. I had 44 in the SB, a loose raiser on the button open raised (I'd expect him to raise about 2/3 of his hands here), I threebet, the BB folded and he called. The flop came AT9 two diamonds, horrible for me. I bet to try and win the pot and he called. The turn came an offsuit 4 and I bet. He called. The river came another ace, I bet, he raised, I reraised and he capped. I called to get shown four aces. It worked this time, but I only had two cards I could possibly hit on the turn where I wasn't just going to check fold. Imagine I have KQ suited or similar and I hit my jack. In this situation he's going to lose a fair bit. Also if I have a hand like AT or even better TT or 99 he's costing himself a lot of bets with this slowplay. You have to be pretty careful. I would probably have called the flop and raised the turn on this hand because I would expect that my opponent has very little. However if the flop was something like AKT i would pull the trigger straightaway, because i'll probably entice a bare queen or jack to call the turn by getting more money in the pot on the flop, and I'll probably also get a calldown from a decent king.
The second idea of slowplaying is to wait for the expensive street to raise in the expectation that your opponent already has a hand, for example if you flop bottom set. There are a lot of reasons why this is sometimes a bad idea. Similar to above, to not allow freak draws in for one bet on the flop. There are also problems associated with the turn raise: if it's a checkraise, they might check behind. Also, just calling the flop and then raising the turn screams monster hand. A better plan is often to raise the flop, because your opponent will often be enticed into calling down, partly because of the extra money now in the pot, and partly because your hand looks weaker. Also if you're lucky enough to come up against massive strength, say you have AA and the flop is ATT and your opponent has T4o in the blind, they are going to just call the flop and then checkraise you on the turn, at which point you can jump up, pump the fist, and throw three bets into the pot.
There are a lot of problems with slowplaying. Just because you raised the flop with a set one time and everyone folded doesnt mean you should slowplay it next time. The correct circumstances for a slowplay are given in HPFAP.
Chris
I have discovered a flaw in your game, you have a "tell".....
" at which point you can jump up, pump the fist, and throw three bets into the pot."
hehehehehe lol
Droopy
I find, as I think most 2+2 players will agree, that just betting and raising the monster hand will take down the biggest pots at low limit. The worst thing you can do is check the flop and have it checked around, then find out some other player was maybe going for a checkraise on the flop with a good, but weaker hand. You just lost a chance to trap people for multiple bets on the flop and the chance to suck in the longshot draws for more bets on the turn since you're giving them a big pot. I want those wacky draws to get trapped due to the pot size because thats were you'll make most of your money. And if your hand truly is a monster, they're probably drawing dead anyways.
For example, if I raise preflop with AA and the flop comes A-T-T, I'll usually just start pounding away. The bad players would EXPECT you to slowplay AA here, so you not only make people pay, you actually conceal the strength of your hand. And as someone mentioned earlier, you will get a chance to be checkraised by a dry 10.
The only times I ever slowplay is maybe heads-up with a worse player. If I think they're drawing I'll bet, but if I think they actually have a hand I'll sometimes wait till the turn or even river to raise them.
I'm with the others.
In LL I find that people look for reasons to call, not reasons to fold. Plus, its my experience that it gives me some cover to steal when the board comes out paired and I bet out. Mostly I feel that people in LL don't give people credit for big hands and play draws too much which equals more money in the middle when you bet and win. I do make some exceptions like a flopped full house (99 and flop is 988, when someone might have an 8), and maybe nut flush if I think people will fold one suit hands to a bet.
Another consideration for me is the loss of deception when a blank hits on the turn if I do slowplay. Too often at LL people check call the flop and then fire on the turn. When the turn card is not corrdinated to the board my hand flies in the muck pretty fast. Their slowplay is so obvious that it kills their later action. Since you want more action on the expensive streets you can often set yourself up better by just betting the flop too.
KJS
Actually, in this very complex game of Hold'em, some think (although widely discussed), that you'd be better off slow-playing more marginal holdings on the flop, rather than monster.
The concept is like this:
You are holding QdQh in small blind, there is one limper, a raisor and one cold-caller to you. A re-raise here will probably drive out big blind, but he could fold anyway, but usually not even the early limper. So you just smooth-call. BB calls, five take the flop, 5 big bets in the pot. The flop comes 8s-8d-Js. It's checked to the raisor who bets, the cold-caller drops, and you just call. So does the other limper (big blind folds), making it 6.5 big bets in the pot. If a blank (no Jack, King, Ace or Spade and preferably not a Seven to give T9 the straight - the queen could be a big money card though) falls on the turn, you will NOW raise the late position player (if he's still betting). If the early limper now calls two bets cold with a flush draw, he's making a mistake with just eight outs (possibly less if late position player stays in with some other pocket pair) and getting 4.75:1 to call two bets cold. Mathematically break-even, but considering that both you and the late position pre-flop raisor *could* be holding the full, I'd say the early limper are making a mistake by calling with a draw here. At least you are putting him in a tough spot with a flush draw on the turn, and you are rarely able to put people in a tough spot with a flush draw in limit poker.
On the other hand, if the flop is Js-Jh-Qs, play it as fast as you can on the flop. Everybody is getting a piece of this flop, and by building the pot big on the flop, you could very easily trap people for several bets on the turn too, if someone else is holding for instance trip Jacks.
lars
What do you guys do when you are second to act and UTG raised (pre-flop)?
Here is what I think, but I'd like to know what everyone else thinks. Assume you JUST sat down and are with players you have never seen before.
AA - 3 bet AKs - 3 bet AKo - 3 bet AQs - call AQo - I don't know AJs - call ATs - fold KK - 3 bet KQs - call KQo - fold KJs - fold QQ - 3 bet QJs - fold JJ - 3 bet TT - I don't know 99 - fold Everything else - fold
Is there ANY other hand that you would play that I haven't listed here? If so, how would you play it?
thanks, sam
You have to split the strategy further depending on the UTG player and the table.
I'm personally not fond of coldcalling preflop, ever. There are some situations where I do coldcall but 90% of the time it's either 3-bet or fold.
Your list is about right against solid opponents. The KQs and AJs calls are a bit weak IMO. AQs/o could be folded, AQo probably should be folded against a solid opponent since the best you can hope for is AQ in his hand.
Against less then solid opposition, go ahead and 3-bet with AQs maybe AQo and TT.
Just my conservative style.
Sincerly, Andreas
Of course if you have knowledge about what the UTG player would raise with then it makes the decisions much, much easier, but I am saying against an unknown player. And I guess I am talking about low limits, so I wouldn't be suprised if a couple of other people cold called 2, maybe even 3.
Fold AQs? Hmm, that seems pretty tight to me, but maybe not. I wonder what others think.
I really dread being dominated and I assumed that UTG was a solid/tight player. Against an unkown LL player I would probably 3-bet both AQs and AQo. KQs is still a tricky hand.
Sincerly, Andreas
"3 bet KQs "
i doubt this could ever be right. youre trying to get it heads up with the worser hand. if youre in a low limit game where everybody comes anyway, i can see just calling for a raised multiway pot.
brad
I think you just read the post wrong. He said "KQs - call". You're right, KQs is definitely not a 3-bet.
.
I like to get a read on new players before I get involved so I take a conservative tack against them. AQo, AJs, KQs, 99 and 10-10 are out. A-Qs is a call. JJ may be a call instead of a raise.
Remember not only is your position bad, but there are still 8 players to act on their hands.
I would call with JJ if I can anticipate a multiway pot. My goal would be to hit a J on the flop or fold-if you hit the initial raiser will be there to pay you off as well as another player, maybe 2.
By the same logic , would you play 22?
Ok Sammy maybe you have a point. Though I think there is a big difference between JJ and 22. I usually play low limit poker and fair fine but the caliber of players here is usually terrible consequently, I don't respect raises as much as I would at a higher limit. JJ may be able to win it out right if the UTG player is weak you raise and he folds something like AK if he doesen't connect on the flop or turn(I know you could pull the same move with 22 but I would rather try it with JJ.) I guess my point is that I would usually play TT or better against a typical low limit player even if he raised UTG. But back to the 22, I might try it against a raise if the pot became multiway. My previous post was very fuzzy so I hope this makes it clearer. I usually play tight and don't call many raises. Good point Sammy-keep me thinking.
3-6, middle with As Kd.
UTG calls, two people fold, I raise, MP cold calls, LP cold calls, SB makes it 3, BB folds, UTG calls, I call, MP calls, LP caps (cold call 2, then cap?), everyone calls. 5 see the flop, $63 pot.
Flop: 6h 3d 4c
SB checks, UTG checks, I check, MP bet, LP raises, SB makes it 3, UTG folds, I fold....
The final board is 6h 3d 4c Ah Js
LP won a $117 pot with AcKc.
Did I let myself get pushed out of the hand or is this just an unfortunate hand that I should expect at low limits?
(MP had 88, SB mucked his hand)
There's a long thread concerning AK in a big pot on the mid limit forum. It was started by Jim Brier and is entitled something like "AK in a Big Pot". It's a good read.
Do you think it was good poker to call 3 bets cold with AK on the flop? Of course not. You don't have anything and the SB could very well have AA or KK.
This hand is a great example why position is a very very important part of Hold 'Em. The LP player had much more flexibility with his hand because he was the last to act. He was probably raising for a free card, got caught and then got lucky. Still, you were out of position and therefore could not do much with your holding. You played fine. Its a game of situations not just cards. Your cards may have been the same but he was in a much better spot try to make them work. Next time maybe you'll be lucky enough to have the button.
KJS
This is a situation I've been thinking about for a while.
Against typical opponents, how much would you be giving up by never ever coldcalling preflop? My gut feeling is that it isn't much.
Another question. Are there ANY hands that you call 3 bets cold with preflop? (Excluding AA in the BB and other similar situations.) I suppose you could call for deception (but how much deception do you gain by calling 3 bets anyway, you have a VERY strong hand.)
Comments?
Sincerly, Andreas
There are a few situations that I will cold call preflop without a monster.
Generally they are in late position with the raiser sitting on my right, with at least 4 callers before the raise.
Knowing the good pot odds I am getting I will ocassionally play medium to small pairs in hopes of a set (and drop immediately if I dont hit it). I will also play suited connectors, but not as ofter, because they are harder to get away from if the flop partially hits you.
I find that the huge pots you can win when you occasionally hit these hands will offset the extra bet you have to call. The only danger is if you lower your standards for the number of callers, you will not get enough action when you hit your hand to make it worth while.
Only play these hands in family pots.
-Brad
I think you give something up every time you make hard and fast rules about playing poker. You are cutting yourself off from making adjustments based on situational factors.
I will most often cold call when multiple people are in the hand already and I have a hand that has a chance to be the nuts but might be second best before the flop. Examples are AKo, AQs, AJs (maybe) and JJ or TT. Add QQ if the pre-flop raiser is very tight. If there is a raise, a couple other cold callers and then me I will see the flop for 2 bets. Add 3 or more callers and I will add some other pairs and maybe a lower kicker with my suited A. If I am in late position I may three bet a low pair or Axs if I think it will get checked to me on the flop.
In early position right next to a raise, I will most often 3 bet or fold. Some exceptions might be JJ or TT or AQo. Of course, I want to know a bit about my opponent and the characteristics of the game. If people will drop I might try to get it heads up with my JJ or TT. If its an action table where people like to cold call too much I'll just cold call and see what happens.
KJS
Are you cold-calling often then Andreas?
Personally, I do it very often. That's also why I routinely muck AJ (suited and not suited), KQo, AQo and sometimes even KQs at very strong tables. When I come in after a raise, I like to three-bet to gain control and also because with my very tight opening hands standard vs a raisor indicates that the hands meeting this standard will often have the better on a raisor.
I may cold-call with a hand like QJs at loose-passive low-limit tables, where it's likely that many players could come in and unlikely to be raised further (although if enough come in, I wouldn't mind a three-bet) and I could also could call with 77-99 in cut-off or button position in a family pot, though three-betting to catch a free turn card wouldn't be disasterous either.
But you are right. You are probably not giving up to much by not coming in with marginal hands after a raise. The marginal hands of course being the ones you won't three-bet but will cold-call.
I also think this is very much depending on the texture of the game, tight/loose and aggressive/passive.
lars
I very rarely coldcall. The times I do it is when it's a big family pot with medium pocket pairs and with AKo to avoid pot bloating.
I don't think I've ever called 3 bets cold preflop, again I would only do it when a big family pot is about to go down and I have a medium pocket pair.
I'm always amazed at how many weak players seem to think that KQo and similar is good enough to coldcall with.
Sincerly, Andreas
6-12 game, $3 drop on the button. Calling only requires completion ($3 more). What hands are playable. I'd think a lot, but not to the extreme that many people take it most people will call with anything for up to one raise. that can't be right. also, some people play it, I think, too tight. example: I'm in the cutoff. All call to me, and I muck 7-2. Button flashes me his 7-6 off and mucks. What??? you don't call for half a bet, with position, into 6 callers with only two very passive blinds behind?
so, what hands are playable?
W/no raise and no fear of raise behind you, on the button, and many (4-5) callers in front of you, I would say many, many hands are playable. But you have to make sure you play correctly after the flop. If not, this could prove very costly. My starting requirements go down considerably in this situation but, I am very careful with it after the flop. Thanks
Hey,
When you raise before the flop with QQ in late position and an A or K flops without a Q and you get betters/callers in front of you. Is a fold automatic (assuming nothing else is working for you)?
Even with 10-20 small bets in the pot, only a Q will help. Give up?
Thanks, JM
If you have action in front of you when a K or A flops, at least 95% of the time I would let it go. But if you do decide to play, a raise might buy you a free river card, but that could back-fire and someone might re-raise. The problem is that if you do get lucky and draw to your 2 outer, that card might also make someone else's hand. Thanks
It's depends on your players. If it's a rock or two that are in there kiss the ladies goodbye. Heads up with stubborn BB that bets but is weak and aggressive raise to see where your at and maybe get a free card. 10-20 small bets? thats a lot of preflop callers. Facing a bet from early position and 1 or 2 callers to you I would fold.
To get your 10-20 bets in the pot, you're going to be facing either a bunch of rocks with big wired pairs, a bunch of maniacs who are playing ATC and praying or a combination.
When the flop hits you with AKx and no queen, you are immediately at risk from the big slicks, AA and KK. The JT and QJ are probably in it for the ride and the suits may well have helped someone on their flush draw.
Unless I absolutely knew the players, I'd bail and wait for better weather.
Jeff
Hello people,
Do hands such as QJo,Q-To,J-To, prefer pots with many or few player's? Should these hands be folded if few player's have called the blinds? And should you call with the intention of flopping a good draw with these hands when you do play them?
thanks,
fred
These hands are bankroll drainers for sure, but to answer your question you want to be in late position with as many players in the pot as can be.
You are hoping to hit 2 pair, or 4 cards to an open ended straight minimum. These hands are so costly due to it improving unsufficently, ie you have Q-T and the flop is A-Q-3 rainbow, you may have second pair here and it is so easy to get sucked in....., or the flop is Q-8d-2d, you have top pair but the turn or river is an ace or king, you could already be outkicked anyway, there is always the chance you could be flushed out as well, even two pair could be dangerous cos say the flop is T-J-Q !!....... i mean these kind of hands just suck as you are playing the hand with a doubt in your mind throughout.
as you can see, not a particular favourite of mine and this is definately a reply for the prosecution!.
all the best Droopy
3/6 HE, late weekday night into a.m. I've been doing well (playing with control) at a table with a number of loose fish, not letting their bad beats get to me (too much).
After the more agressive ones got busted out, the table started shrinking. I stayed because of two guppies in particular, who were calling WAY too many raises and playing too many hands (and pulling out makeup money) Eventually it got down to me, 3 generally bad players and one maybe-okay player...
When the floor came to combine us with another table (unfortunately), i was up 30 big bets. I decided to ride with the fish until they disappeared, even though the table we moved to had mostly competent players.
I could never get a shot at the guppies' money before they swam away, lost 10 bets in the process before calling it a morning.
My question- what should be my minimum moron/player ratio when moving into this type of situation? Or should I have avoided it altogether (since it was about 30%)
If you knew the players well at this new table and knew they were good then you are going to have to take a look at yourself. Had you loosened up due to playing in the aquarium?. I mean you had been playing short handed for a while?.
I reckon you were loose here and was getting picked off in your enthusiasm to get at those little fishies.
good luck lol
Droopy
Hi, all
I'm off to see if I can take some money away from the kind players at the Muckleshoot in Auburn, WA. Wish me good cards.
Anyone interested in hooking up, I'll be there most of tonight (Friday), I'll be playing Hold'em (not sure the spread, depends on the games). I'll be wearing a black military looking patrol cap with a pair of Chairborne wings on the front and Marvin (The Lucky Poker Alien) the Martian on the back.
Stop by if you get a chance.
Jeff
Good luck. Muckleshoot is one of my local haunts but I am spending the weekend up in the Cascades instead. Let us know how you like the games and post some hands of interest.
KJS
Thanks, it turned out I needed it.
Played some 4-8, had a ball.
Honestly, I didn't play many "interesting" hands. By the time I got there, the only table choices were the quarry (filled with rocks) or the asylum. Since I'm playing short on my BR, I went to the quarry.
Lost a bunch to a hand I misread. I lost it by slowplaying a straight I made on the turn. I plainly and simply blew the hand. I knew I should raise it and end it right there but my mouth actually said, "call."
Other player picked up the Ah to make her flush and I was smacked like a harp seal pup.
Ah well, I learned from it. After that, I took about half an hour out of the game and just hung on the rail watching. Got some insight into some of the people I see there fairly regularly and hopefully I'll be able to put it together well enough to use it in the game. If things go well, I'll be heading back up on Sunday afternoon to put it to the test.
Jeff
Glad you enjoyed it. If you live in the neighborhood, you should check out Diamond L'ils in Renton. I think the games are softer there and they spread middle limits like 6-12 and 8-16 which often play only slightly better than 3-6 or 4-8.
KJS
I actually live in Tacoma so Renton isn't that much further than Auburn. I don't play at the Emerald Queen because I've had some problems with their floor dealing with colluding players. While I'm still learning, I'm not up for trying to be the one to play them out to teach them a lesson, I'll leave that to the rich folks.
2-6 hold'em game at the Excalibur and this hand comes up.
I am in middle position with KK, I raise one $2 limper to $8. Everyone folds to the blind, who re-raises to $14. The limper cold calls. Since there is little preflop raising in the game, the re-raise to $14 out of the blind makes me worried that I am in a KK vs AA situation, so I just call.
I have only been at the table for 20 minutes. I have noticed the limper is a very weak player that will routinely go to the river with nothing. I didn't notice anything about the reraiser prior to this hand.
The flop comes down K-Q-8 with 2 clubs. Blind comes out betting $6 and gets called by the limper. I raise and both call.
The turn comes another Q. Blind comes out betting again and limper calls. I raise, limper reraises without hesitation and the limper cold calls. I raise it again and am shocked into calling when he reraises again. The limper is still with us.
I dont remember the river, but it was a blank. Blind comes out betting, gets a call from the limper again. I think for a few seconds and decide to raise it one more time. Again the blind reraises and the limper finally folds. I call, sure that he is going to flip over QQ.
He shows AQs and I take down a huge pot. Discussion about the hand commences. The dealer tells me "I knew you had it the whole time". I tell the guy next to me "I was sure he was going to flip over QQ" and he scoffs at me.
When he reraised preflop to $14 I was thinking AA or QQ, maybe JJ? The way he came alive on the turn when the 2nd Q hit really slowed me down.
How would you guys rate my play of this hand?
I am sorry but if you have AA vs my KK then you are just going to have to take my money. weak play preflop
maby I am a maniac but its going to take a few more raises before I will start calling with top set full.
If you make quads against my top set full then you need to decide how to spend my money, because you are going to get a lot of it.
just my thoughts, i could be wrong
I think you got just about enough raises in here until you decided just call. Is five bets the cap here?
Pre-flop I think you should consider re-raising once more, but if the game is tight pre-flop as suggest you were possibly left with 'no choice'.
I think I'd go just about as far as you did with that hand.
lars
Bill,
Most players at this level are not capable of thinking as well as you. You must press these hands to the maximum to make up for the draw outs that will come during the course of play with multiway pots. Once the third K comes out if the player has QQ it doesn't really matter you have to play it to the max IMO. Five raises is enuf IMO.
paul
Bill,
1. You've got to re-raise preflop here. You're right, he could be re-raising with aces. He could also be re-raising with QQ,JJ,AKs, etc. You only pay off one of the re-raising hands. The rest pay you off...I like the odds.
2. I wouldn't put this guy on QQ post-flop. Even a moron with QQ would be ramming and jamming the flop(I would expect AA to do the same thing on this flop). It didn't happen here.
3. On the turn it's now obvious he's got a Q(although I know a few people who would make this play with AA). Again, his play on the flop doesn't indicate QQ, so how can you put him on it? You've got top full, a monster in hold-em. Stop being a wuss and cap it.
I'm the Big Blind in this 6 handed game. I have ThTs. The guy on my right is just short of a maniac. He'll raise with any ace and sometimes with 42o. But he's showing me his hands from time to time and he appears to be using some discretion after the flop. The guy to his right is loose, but isn't a maniac and isn't easy to predict. All 5 players limp and I check. Flop comes 3h6h9s. Check, Check, bet, raise, re-raise, and now it's my turn. I contemplate (CAP! Then I look at the pot and there's only 6 small bets in it and I'm in the worst position. What the heck do these guys have? There's two hearts on board, but I have a Th. If an overcard or a single heart comes I'm probably screwed and even if 2 more hearts come a TEN high flush is likely worthless -- I keep thinking for a while). I fold. The almost maniac shows me one of his cards, a 9c, and says good fold. I cringe thinking he better have another 9 under there! The next two cards are blanks, but the betting continues - a sinlge bet on the turn and river. The almost maniac shows his Jc9c and loses to the guy on his right who holds Qs9h. What would you guys have been thinking and what would you have done?
Thanks,
-Michael
I tell you what i would have done, i would have been rubbing my hands together and lining up my ammunition for later hands!!!
dont beat yourself up about the fold, its ok to fold the best hand now and again lol. I would not have folded here with the absence of an overcard on the flop and the texture of this game.
Good Luck
Droopy
Can I solicate your commentary on the hand explained above?
Ont thing to think about in these spots is what is a likely hand for the reraiser in these spots. Here's where some simple hand reading comes into play. Many players when they make it three bets on the flop have a good hand but one in which they want to eliminate as many players as possible. If this is the case, you should certainly play.
If this same player raises on the turn, he is much more likely to be looking for extra money. Now a decision to fold a hand like a weak overpair makes more sense.
Thanks Mason,
Excellent point about thinking about what the re-raiser has in these spots. It should have occurred to me that semi-maniac re-raiser would likely have raised pre-flop if he had any pocket pair. I did fear the possiblility of being up against two pair - but I guess that's always plausible when in games that have loosey-gooseys? I should have called to the river ... I'll know what to do next time a similar situation presents itself.
six handed i really dont think *any* amount of action on the flop means anything more than top pair, top kicker if youre in a loose game.
with draws out there (45, 67, hearts), theres plenty of stuff for people to have besides a set(i guess thats what you put somebody on).
i dont think its *that* wrong to fold in this particular hand, but if everybody else is all geared up you'll have to adjust your game.
brad
For the insightful responses.
-Michael
Hey,
Just had an awful $3-6 session; it seemed I had my fair share of good starting hands but continuously the flop left me with overcards and no draws.
Eg. Raise with AK, AJs, AQ, KJs
If there has been reraising before flop and anywhere from 15 to 25 small bets in the pot before the flop. Anybody have any tips to playing after the flop. Basically, if the board did not look to scary I checked and called because of the trememdous pot odds.
Specifically, where did I go wrong here:
Loose raiser in middle/late position. I am in small blind with AJs. I reraise and he makes it four bets. About 6 people in to see the flop. 24 small bets.
Flop: T 9 3 (none of my suit)
I figure that I have two overcards and a chance at a backdoor straight. So I call the preflop raisers's bet.
5 in to see the turn.
Turn: A
The preflop raiser opens again and I am next act. I raise. The players behind me fold, and he reraises. I call.
River: blank
I call his bet. He shows pocket aces.
Is there anyway I could have gotten away from this hand?
Thanks, JM
I'm not s
mmmmmmm, you are going to get many replies here i reckon!
i assume that there are two callers before mid/late guy raises. He must think he is winning at this point and you may have to put him on decent hand esp after his re-raises. I would have called preflop, folded after the flop with that board and a raised pot.
You were a "little" optimistic here (backdoor straight!!!). Its hard to let these good looking hands go but you must now and again, it hurts a bit especially if you havent seen any cards for a while but your play here is verging on Maniac proportions but it must be a rollercoaster ride for sure!!
I think 2+2 posters would like to know where you played this hand.......
Good Luck
Droopy
At the risk of "piling on", JM, I've gotta agree with the other posters. Your BTF raise doesn't do anything for you except lower your stack. I'd call and lay it down after the action on the flop. Too many ways to lose and not enough ways to win against that many players. The pot odds might look good, but your only real chance of winning is if you catch the runner-runner -- even when the A falls on the turn, you're sure to be outkicked.
JM,
"With the holdings you mentioned" and "In a game where there is a lot of re-raising BTF"...I would either limp or fold, depending upon your position (very important) and the postion your opponents (both that have acted and those that have not). AK would be the only hand you mentioned that I may not consider folding. If you're to act following a raise I would either call or fold, depending again...maybe 3-bet if the field is small or a 3-bet would isolate you with an opponent who is raising with less than what you think are proper holdings to bring it in for a raise. The larger the field the more you need to hit the flop very strong to continue. Hope this helps.
Gene (holdemdude)
P.S. What did you mean by "I'm not s?
Gene (holdemdude)
I'm generally not too fond of overcards that are headed by an ace in multi-way pots. I will continue if the pot is big enough, but it must be laying me a good enough price to compensate for the times I'll hit an ace and still lose. In addition, if the pot is truly worth fighting for, I think it's often correct to thin the field with a raise or a bet into the raiser, even with just overcards.
In the hand you mentioned, I think you went wrong in several places: First, I don't like the re-raise from the sb. In a 3-6 game, there is little that can be accomplished from this play. I think you should see the flop as cheaply as possible.
The second thing I think you did wrong, is you failed to take proper note of how this hand played out. It's not possible for him to open bet in front of you if you are in the sb. So you either mistook your position or you omitted that you check/raised the turn. I'm not trying to be a smarta**, but these things are important in analyzing previously played hands and learning from them.
i think you need to analyze a bit deeper. pocket aces are taught to be played agressively. we talk about play them hard, or don't play at all. that kind of thing. now your explanation has this guy betting and raising every time it is his turn to act. in low limit, you can kind of assume this guy is either a maniac, or he has AA or KK. when the ace hits the board, and instead of slowing down he kicks it up a notch, you can put him on AK or AA, or already having hit a set. no way he is playing his hand like that without a better Ace than AJ unless he is a moron. but you didn't say he was a moron. and even morons get AA sometimes.
Any relation to Bilbo?
Your pre-flop reraise is loose poker, IMO. You have the worst position at the table and a very speculative holding. You are not going to flop a pair very often and you may flop a J and not even have top pair. I would call and play cautiously.
When the raiser bets the flop you need to think about his hand, not yours. You have some pretty cards but now there is a flop out and you have nothing but overcards or perfect-perfect straight outs. Do you think you'll win if a J hits? An Ace hits? J is very doubtful, Ace is not even 100%. You have 3 outs for the turn max, IMO. A fold is in order here.
If you do call and hit your hand, bet and get raised you are almost always beat in a LL game. You really need to think about the other persons hand again, not the fact that you lucked into a big pair. What hands could they have that you beat? AT, A9, KK? How many of these would they raise and reraise pre-flop with and raise a bettor after an A hits. Absolutely none. He has AQ, AK or AA. Get rid of your hand. Now.
If you cannot get away from hands because they look good pre-flop and then improve slightly but someone is giving you every indication you are beat at every turn you really need to take a step back and think about your game. Low limit hold 'em is showdown poker. Showdowns come at the end of the hand, not the beginning. Playing tight is great but it is no guarantee you'll end up best. Wait for situations where you are pretty sure you are going to the river with the best hand. Think about your opponents possible holdings and make sure you can beat something that they might play in the manner they are playing. Getting away from 2nd best hands after lots of raising is one of the easier ways to save money in your game. Learn to do and be proud of doing it. You'll be happy you did.
KJS
Online $3-6, I am holding Th9h in big blind, when there is a late raise after three limpers. I call, thinking I could flop a flush or a straight with this hand.
Then an early limper three-bets it! As everyone calls to me, I comtemplate folding as I read the limp-reraiser for a big pocket pair, who could easily improve to a Full if I make a straight on the low side. But I can't fold now I guess, so I call.
The flop wasn't quite what I was hoping for: Ts-8h-7h. There is a bet from the early three-bettor, and all folds to the late raiser who raise. I fold, reading the three-better for the two case Tens and the raiser for a made J9 straight.
Please tell me I did the right move here.
Tightie
Just because you think the pre-flop raiser has an overpair that doesn't mean you should fold the second time around before the flop. You are looking to flop a draw and draw out on an overpair.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Ts-8h-7h is a great flop for Th9h. You have top pair and an open ended straight-flush draw. What more do you want?
What reasoning did you use to conclude that the late raiser has pocket tens? And the other guy with J9. That's quite a leap. You have better hand reading skills than I do.
This is an easy call.
this is an easy troll.
nice lay down. next time muck pre-flop and save even more money.
i mean, read my earlier post, so sorry but these kind of hands suck, period!!!, that 1st call is a shocker, do i have to post this day after day!!!
the prosecution rests, again.....
good luck tho' lol,
Droopy
Let's just assume (for the sake of argument) that the pot was not going to be three-bet pre-flop. If we assume the limpers will all call the raise, will we not be getting 9-1 to call pre-flop? My question to all is, at what point are you being offered a fair price to call a single raise with T9s from the Big Blind? Depending on the game texture, 9-1 looks pretty good.
That is, 3 limpers + 1 raiser + 1 BB already in pot means 9-1 odds to call the late position raise. Is this not tempting enough to call the first raise with suited connectors?
Conversely, I might fold if I had reson to suspect the early position limper would three-bet the pot. However, I'm sitting here at my computer instead of at the table when this hand occurred. T9s is a hand that I'd like play as cheaply as possible pre-flop.
First of all, that flop is an OUTSTANDING flop for T9 suited - as noted by the first response. You have a ton of outs to a pile of good hands, and a couple of outs to the absolute, complete nuts.
Folding in that situation is a mistake - plain and simple. I'd (in order) bet the flop with your hand, or 3-bet it after your initial check. You're getting 2 callers into what is already a big pot. You've got far better than 2-to-1 odds of making your hand. Even if you're right about their hands (and that's a long shot at best), you've still got a pile of outs against the lad with trip 10s (you beat him with any heart, jack or 6 that doesn't give him a boat), and a bunch of outs against the made straight (any heart). Put the two together, and any heart which doesn't pair the board beats both of them - again assuming you're right.
Re: your hand reading - reading people for trips and the nut flush on a flop like that is probably conservative in the extreme. While it's possible, it's not especially likely. And, as noted above, even if you're accurate it's certainly correct to call, and by my estimation, more correct to bet, raise, or re-raise given the size of the pot and the implied odds if you makes your hand (online 3-6 players tend to be calling stations).
I think you're being too quick to jump to conclusions about other people's hands. You have top pair, a str8 draw and runner-runner flush possibilities. I would try and find a way to continue past this flop.
Not runner-runner flush possibility, he already has the straight-flush draw.
Sorry. I somehow missed the 2nd heart on the flop.
I would have tossed my cards in the muck even if it was checked to me on the flop. No use getting trapped with such a bad flop since I read the five other players who folded pre-flop as throwing away the four jacks, the four sixes, and two other hearts based on the disgusted look on their faces.
Top pair with bad kicker and only 5 outs to only the fourth nut flush???
Easy fold.
In big blind position. I hold 5,5. Seven players call, I check. The flop comes 4,4,5 rainbow. Small blind checks, I check, everyone else checks. The turn comes 10 of diamonds. so there are two diamonds on board. I bet, everyone folds.
I am not sure whether i played this right. any comments would be greatly appreciated thankyou in advance.
You'd be better off trapping people with gutshots, runner-runner flushes and just overcards from the flop on. You could then build a pot from which more people have odds to call the big turn bet on.
It's close whether you should raise pre-flop too, depending a little on the texture of the game, but Fives are probably just a tad bit to low. At least Sixes and Sevens will win a very small percentage of these hands even without making a set or a straight, and therefore should be raised for value in this un-raised, family pot.
Once you didn't bet the flop, you should consider checking the turn too. Giving someone free flushes here ain't a worry (very tight players could fold a non-nut flush draw early here, the pot isn't particularly large despite the number of players), and people drawing to open-ended straights could get their straight without having to worry about drawing to only six non-flush outs.
Usually though, this hand will usually get bet behind you already at this street, but regardless of that possibility, I think you are definitely securing yourself anything from one to ten (then you might start worry if you are beat!) more big bets from this pot if you check here. On the river, you'll get calls from anyone who has spiked a pair.
lars
With seven players who probably hold a gazillion overcards to a five, I prefer to bet out on the flop.
I once saw a very good player flop the same hand. He checked the flop, turn AND river! Then got paid off like a banshee when the river got bet and raised back to him and he made it 3 bets... But the pot started short-handed though.
You should read the thread below about slowplaying monsters. Most of the 2+2 players agreed that (at least at low limit HE) it is usually better to just start betting it out right away. At low-limits people will call with just about anything here including pocket pairs, overcards, gutshots, even backdoor flush draws. And as some people pointed out in the slowplaying thread, players in low limits often never give the bettor credit for a good hand. Your hand will still be concealed even if you bet. Anyone who folds on the flop probably has no draw whatsoever, so its OK if they fold because they were never going to give you action anyways.
If you're lucky, one or two guys might have trip fours and give you good action on the flop, then you can trap all of the drawers for multiple bets. If you are able to build a decent pot on the flop, guys will be sucked into the pot and will chase their draws to the river.
It was just unlucky that nobody had a decent draw or trips in this case to give you action, but a coordinated flop like this usually leads to a decent pot.
No. I don't thing so. check the turn again. That's the only chance I think you have in early position to extract some bets.
I'm surprised they all folded; it seems like someone always has a ten.
I almost never bet a flopped full unless I'm in a situation where a flopped full is one of the few things I might not bet, but here it looks pretty juicy. It depends on your opponents' tendency to draw or play back, your image, etc. -- there's no "generally correct" answer when it's not possible to make a bad mistake.
The reason betting looks attractive is that you've got 7 opponents thinking they've got pot odds to outdraw your 5, and that's assuming you're not on a straight draw or mere overcards yourself. A small overpair might be inclined to punish your stinking 5-outer. They usually think: "he might have a four, but when I consider all the other things he can bet, I'd be foolish to let him intimidate me ...." mm-mmmm.
4-8 Holdem. 3-4 Live Fish. 2 good players to my right. Once calling station. 2 players (couldn't classify them). Anyway... This was my first time playing at the casino. Never played before. I wanted to play for fun, not really to win or anything like that. I was expecting to lose, but when i spotted this table, i had to sit down. I entered with the normal buy in (40). i Sat down for about 3 and half hours and then cashed out for 220.
Here is my question. Is it possible to beat most 4-8 holdem games with double or the minimum buy in? If not then what do you recommend?
Thanks in advance
Alright, a few things.
$40 is nowhere near enough to buy in with. You got lucky. You can lose that much in one hand (e.g. missing a flush draw). As far as I'm concerned, 25-30 BB is a good starting point, so for $4-$8 that's around $200. You can easily lose 20 BB (or much more) even if you are playing perfectly.
Winning hold'em is not as easy as you probably think it is right now. You will go through long, painful losing streaks.
I remember what I thought after the first time I played and I made $300 in two hours.
Good luck.
For 3-6, I will never start a hand with less than $50 in front of me, and for 4-8 at least $70. This is because you are in danger of having to go "all in" with only $40 and you will lose money when you actually have a good hand. Going "all-in" is a losing strategy in limit poker. The worst thing you can do is to lose your $40 by going all in and then buying in for another $40, and repeating this a few more times (as I see many players do).
I think you should have at least $200 that you are willing to play with in a given session. This will let you ride out most dry spells. I usually buy-in for $100 in 3-6 or 4-8 with $200 more in my pocket as backup if things don't go well.
Sunday morning I went to a local casino to play some 4-8. Some of my favorites players were there.. Drunk Old Guy (DOG), Drunk Italian Lady (DIL), etc. Bought a rack of white with $200 backup. A new player I've not seen before, Sober Asian Guy (SAG) was there, and as I was sitting down at the table I saw him raise a flop of 4 3 J which had several players contesting the pot. A couple callers on the turn when he bet, and when a 6 came on the river, he bet out again and was called to showdown 57 for the straight made on the river (he raised a gutshot). This looked good.
Not much longer I was ready to play a hand. I had 8h 8d under the gun and limped in for $2 (blinds are $1-$2 for this 4-8 game).. 2 callers, and SAG raised it to $6. The blinds called as did the other limpers. Flop came 8c 3c 5s. I bet out, hoping the SAG will raise to clear some of the rubble out (or charge a flush draw). I got what I wanted. He raised, the BB called, I re-raised. SAG called and so did the BB. Turn came 7s. Not the best card, but at least the flush wasn't there. I bet out, SAG raised, the BB cold-called. Now I think SAG must have an overpair or a lower set, no way he's on 6-4, raising pre flop. I re-raise, and both of them call. River comes a red 4. Any lone 6 can win now in this multi-way (huge) pot, and I want to show my hand down, so I check when the BB checks to me.. SAG bets out, the BB calls. I grit my teeth and throw in another $8 at what was now a $130 pot with top set. SAG turns over 6-4 offsuit and drags the pot. Nice hand =)
A round later, I have KQo on the button. 2 callers, I limp as do the blinds. Flop comes A 3 7 rainbow. Everyone checks to me, I'm pretty sure nobody has a hand here and consider trying to buy it but pass. another 7 comes on the turn, bringing 2 diamonds. Everyone checks to me, there is $10 in the pot, I bet $8 knowing this one wont be contested. Everyone folds to Old Smoking Lady who pauses, then calls. Drat. River comes a ten of diamonds and she bets out without too much hesitation. From what I've seen of her play it's been very straightforward, so she called an $8 bet on a draw with a $10 pot.. nice. My cards hit the muck faster than her chips are all put in.
After a couple more rounds of missing flops / folding, I see I'm a bit short stacked so I buy another rack. 2 hours later, I'm still waiting to win my first pot.
I pick up Ac Qc in early position. I open-raise to $6, when the guy to right of SAG (GTR) cold calls. SAG calls, and the flop is taken 3 handed. 2c 5c 7d. Nut flush draw, not bad.. but these are SAG's type of cards ;) I decide to bet anyways, since he didn't raise pre-flop I can't put him on 6-4. GTR raises it to $8, SAG re-raises to $12! Damn, maybe he is on 6-4 again! Still, I have a draw to the nuts, I am undaunted and smooth-call it. (a case can be made to cap it with 2 overcards and a nut flush draw, but I'm not very confident that my overcards would be good if I hit a pair and I do have the worst position in this multi-way pot). To my surprise, GTR caps the betting.. we both call. I've seen GTR show down some really horrid cards so I'm sure he has a piece of this flop, just not sure what. The turn came a beautiful 3 of clubs. I was worried that the turn may be checked around if I did not bet and also excited at the prospect of winning my first hand in what now had been a 3 1/2 hr session, I led at the pot with $8. GTL called after not much of a delay. SAG pondered for a short time, then folded with a wry grin that made me think he raised the flop with a gutshot perhaps. The river came another 5, which was devastating. Trying not to show my contempt for the horrible card, I bet out.. expecting a raise which did not come... only a call. Okay! I finally got one! It's all turning around now! I proudly fling my nut flush to the middle of the table for all to see. GTL shows his hand, 5-2 offsuit which the dealer has to announce to me since I'm in the 7 seat and cant quite see it. I'm still in disbelief as he's pushed the large pot.
I had $16 left and the next hand was dealt QJo UTG. I thought about playing it (for a raise, a probable all-in hand), then decided it was time to take a break. I took the $16 and cashed out, a 4 hour session with zero dragged pots, -$184 loss, playing conservative.
As the other posters have pointed out, $50 is way too low to come into a 3-6 or 4-8 with. You never know when you will hit a big hand. If you don't have enuf money to cover the bets you need to make, then you're losing money. It's nice to get a fast start and get ahead early in any given session, you just can't count on it tho.
n/t
nt
Normal low limit game.
I get 9h 9c. There is a guy who posted (P) behind me.
UTG limps, MP limps, I limp, P checks, SB calls, BB checks.
Flop is 7h Th 8h.
It gets checked to me, I bet it, P folds, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP folds (thats more calls than I was hoping for).
Turn is 4d.
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, I fold.
Comment on my play. Here are my thoughts:
I'm pretty sure I don't have the best hand right now, and I don't know how the 4d could have possibly helped UTG. Why would he check-call the flop, then bet out on the turn? To me, it smells like a made flush. What am I drawing to? With all these people hanging around, there must be a bigger heart than mine if the flush comes, and if I make my straight, or a set of nines, it will cost me a lot on the river to be shown a flush. I figure I only have two clean outs, so I fold.
(For the results oriented, SB and BB called the turn, the Kh fell on the river and the river got checked through. UTG had Ts Js, BB had Td Jc, SB had Jd 6c).
Groan.
Check calling the flop and betting the turn when a blank hits makes me think top pair. When the flop doesn't get raised, UTG should figure they aren't up against a small made flush and wants to make sure not to give any free cards to single high hearts.
I agree with Mark, you should call in this situation. If you're playing in a room that offers a bonus pot for straight flushes it's a no-brainer call.
When I first read this I thought it was a no-brainer call. On second thought I don't think it matters too much either way, but I'd tend to call here. It's kind of tricky 6-way, then 4-way, especially where the bet is coming from, you can't tell if a 10 wants to get raised so he can fold, or if a flopped flush is afraid you won't bet the turn.
You are immediately getting 5.5 - 1, which isn't a great overlay given your draw and the board, and it's tough to predict your implied odds because every other bet that goes into the pot is as likely as not to be with a better hand or draw. The problem is that if a heart comes you won't be able to bet, and the possibility that you'd be the first to call really sucks. If the str8 comes you have to be careful. You end up paying more when you aren't good, and collecting fewer when you are. If the str8 flush comes, you probably won't get much action even if the Ah is out, so the 2-outs to the absolute nuts don't mean as much in implied odds as you'd hope.
As I said, I'd probably call, but I think you shouldn't question yourself overly much about the fold. If the pot were bigger from a pre-flop raise it would be an easy call.
Here are a couple of hands I played last night. Did I play them correctly?
Hand 1 - Qh 8h in the BB.
Pre-flop: UTG, EP, button limp, sb calls.
Flop: 5c 8s 2d
SB bets, I raise, everyone folds to SB who calls.
Turn: 9h
SB checks, I bet, SB raises, I fold.
Was I correct in:
Raising the flop? (It's raise or fold, right?) Betting the turn? Folding to the check-raise on the turn?
Often on the flop, I have hands that figure to be the current best, but with lots of opponents I don't know how to play them (e.g. pocket 8's with a board of 7,4,2 or something with 5 players).
Hand 2 - Ah Ks, in the cutoff.
Pre-flop: UTG calls, EP raises, I 3-bet, UTG folds, EP caps, I call.
Flop: 2h Qs 5s
EP bets, I raise, EP re-raises, I call.
Turn: 8h
EP bets, I fold.
Question: Is this the correct way to get away from AK heads up or did I stick around too long? I raised the flop to see if he was still serious, and when he came back at me I decided to just call, then call him down if an A or K (or MAYBE a spade) hit the turn, and fold to a bet if a blank hit the turn? Maybe after he capped pre-flop I can fold to a single bet on the flop?Comments?
On the first hand, I like your play. Of course you raise the flop. You are trying to get hands like T9 and JT to fold. Most players with two overcards would call one bet, but many will fold for two, especially in a small pot. I think on the turn you are either way beat, or just beat, and that folding to the check-raise is fine.
Second hand, after the pre-flop raiser caps the betting, I would just fold the flop, unless he is a very aggressive player who is capable of playing AK or less in this manner. Against the vast majority of players, a cap before the flop = big pair, and is usually AA or KK, which leaves you in BAD shape. Ditch it on the flop. When you raise the flop and get reraised, this is pretty much confirmation that you shoulda gotten out already.
Dave in Cali
Dave,
From your comments on the second hand, you would have folded to the flop bet because the guy capped pre-flop. How many people will make that fold? If folding is correct, and widely known, then would it stand to reason that if I open raise with a hand like AQo before the flop and get 3-bet, I should cap and bet out on the flop to try to push off AK? (And of course if the flop gets raised I can fold because he can only have AA, KK or AK)
I'm starting the think that raising the flop was correct. And maybe I can fold when he 3-bets. I don't know. I lose most of my money on wild heads-up situations. Maybe I have to slow down.
Raising the flop with just AK and no pair can be a good move sometimes, but if you get three-bet, you are BEAT the vast majority of the time. It of course "depends" on the exact situation...
Playing 3-6-12 with a number of bad players and a couple of solid players.
Im UTG with AhKh and raise. The usual field of 5 or 6 players comes along.
Flop: 8h 8c 6h I bet out (my usual aggression) and fold the majority of the field, except for one guy who calls.
Turn: 2s Total blank. I bet out again and get called again. At this point Im putting the guy on a worse flush draw.
River: 4h I bet out again and get raised to 24. Without hesitation I make it 36 and he calls and I win.
Now, talking over this hand with Jim Roy, Aaron Lovi, and Derrick Ashworth later, they were split on it. This was out of my usual city, so I am not that familiar with the 3-6-12 format, and both Aaron and Derrick (who play it more) felt I was too aggressive on the river. They both felt there was a solid chance that someone was slowplaying a full house on me to suck the max 12 out of me on the river. Jim agreed with my play. Aaron voted for check and call. Derrick voted for bet and call a raise. To be fair, this was the only 36-shot on the river I saw in the entire weekend, to give you an idea of how infrequent river action was.
Am I too aggressive? I was thinking of it along the lines of him putting me on an overpair (especially given that I was betting out every street), so he would assume any made flush was good, no matter how low it was (and it must have been somewhat low, given that I had the A and K).
I think you mighta played this had too aggressively. With a flop like this I don't think I'd bet out. The reason is because if I bet and it gets raised then the pot will definately become short-handed and that's not what I want w/ a flush draw, plus w/ a raise I have to think of the possiblility I am drawing dead, though I doubt anyone hit this flop given you raised pre-flop and such low cards hit the board. Anyways you bet and everyone folds except one person. You still shrunk the field and I'm not sure that is what I want w/ a flush draw. The only way I think a turn bet is ok is if you are 100% sure that he is on a flush draw. Or you think this player is capable of folding. Otherwise you are behind and have to draw to your flush and a bet would only be justified w/ 3-4 callers not just one. Otherwise I think this play has -EV. This is my first time posting a response so take my two cents for what it is worth.
SS
I like the bet on the river, and would call any raise, but reraising was somewhat risky. However, against players that like to try and push you around, I would be more inclined to reraise the river, and would make a crying call if they made it 48. I don't think your play was terrible, but you were definitely pushing a MUCH smaller edge when you reraised than when you bet the first time. I wouldn't be nearly as inclined to push a small edge in a game with a double river bet as I would be in a normal game.
Dave in Cali
So far I'm ahead... Hee hee (good vote dave in cali). To be fair though, I was not playing at the table with David. I didn't get a read on the player that put in the raise on the river... but then again, no one posting will have a read on him either.
Derrick
I didn't have a lot of respect for this guy.
The bet on the flop is kind of dicey. On the one hand, you won't get a better hand to fold, and if you are drawing you want people around. On the other hand, you want the flop to get bet. So I like the bet.
The other's flop call would confuse me. Many low limit players would raise the flop with any draw (despite the pair), but amusingly would flat call with trips or two overcards or some wacky holding. So betting the turn would depend on my read of what he'd do on the flop with a draw, with trips, and with no hand. With no read on the player I'd check and call (and check and call the river if I didn't improve), but if I suspected he would flat call with no hand or with a decent draw, I'd bet.
On the river I'd bet the big flush and call a raise. The betting structure is such that I'd be really hesitant to push a small edge unless I knew the player to be a Compleat Foole.
David,
Sorry dude, but I agree with Derrick and Aaron on this one. Unless you have an extremely solid read on this guy, I'm for the bet and call the raise. Even if he's supermagoo (hi Dave in Cali) himself, I think he can correctly put you on a wired overpair or two bigguns headed by an ace.
He could have all manner of hands here... 8x for trips, 8 board for full house, 75 suited for straight, 2 hearts especially if he's brain-dead. Any one of these that he has are probably good in his mind... even more so as there's no paint on board. He puts you on two pair at best.
Of course, I'm driven by results too. So good for you by getting 3 big bets from your opponent in a pot he shouldn't have even contested in the first place. It makes me feel that there is some justice in the world.
Vant coookey?
Mike
The fact that he would be putting me on 2 pair was the prime reason in my 3-betting the river. He would assume any straight or flush was good, as I wouldn't be showering the table with chips on a mere draw (he doesn't know me very well!). Given that I expect him to expect me to have two pair, there are a lot of hands I think he'd raise the river with that I beat (any flush, any straight, a dry 8, etc).
I thought this hand was a good example of higher level thinking (what did I think that he thought that I have).
Had he 48-shotted me on the river, I don't know what I would have done. Probably had to pay off getting huge odds (7-1 on river bets alone!).
I loved raising him and taking a huge pot off him. Stacks and towers of checks so high I could barely see around them!
Check-raising stoopid tourists and taking huge pots off them. :)
You know what makes me feel better when I'm down ...
.
Of course, I know...
"rolled up aces over kings"
C
suh fucking joke anyvay. afterall, i am paying you wich yorr mahney.
what'd you say?
i am still up twunty grrand from dee last time i, steeck eet een you!
Turn: 2s Total blank. I bet out again and get called again. At this point Im putting the guy on a worse flush draw.
I think that's rational and (as it turns out) a correct read. I'm curious though, what would you (by "you" I mean the general 2+2 "you", not just David) do if you miss everything on the river? Check-call? Bet-fold? Check-fold?
There is about 8 BB in the pot before the river. The river bet is 2 BB... This is a very tough decision.
You will be getting 5:1 on a check call... will you be ahead 20% of the time... I don't think so.
If you bet (into a maniac) he will raise with nothing sometimes... how often I would say at least 20% of the time. He will often call you down with a worse hand like bottom of middle pair... So I would say betting is a mistake.
I guess I would probably check fold. If the river bet was only 1 BB I would check call.
Derrick
I would have bet the river if I had missed. However, thats more a function of my style and how much risk Im willing to take to win a hand. Kinda a lot.
this guy could have had 5-7, even 8-x if he puts you on a big pair, but most likely he had something like Q-Ts of the two flush suit(he did cold call a raise).
in a 3-6-12 a hand like 6-6 is much more likely than in a 3-6 game. in fact, id wait myself until the river to pop it with 6-6 in this game, whereas in 3-6 you'd hear from me on the flop/turn.
if you put him on the flush draw, and are confident in your read, why not check and let him bluff into you when the river is a blank not making the flush. he did call a raise pre-flop, he probably has somethin like Q-T hearts.
i find that i pick up many bets against certain people who will fold a missed draw when bet into, but will bluff a missed draw when checked to. if hes calling this long with just a pair, he aint folding to your bet anyway.
It's a loose aggressive 4-8 game with a kill. One player (LAP) has been raising about 70% of the hands he plays BTF. He is UTG and raises, as usual. Two call to me and I look down to see KhQc. I considered three betting, but it would hardly limit the field, if at all, and LAP will surely cap. A capped pot also insures that you will get plenty of chasers, whether they have good or bad draws. Not a good situation for a hand like KQo. Yet I don't think I should fold here, because my hand is so much better than the average hand played at this table. I think I am better off here keeping the pot smaller and just seeing what the flop brings before investing too much. 6 players see the flop for two bets each.
Flop comes Qc 7h 4c. Top pair, king kicker, not bad. However, with six players and two clubs, plus str8 possibilities, you can count on some chasers. LAP bets the flop and two call to me. I just call. Raising here won't limit the field at all. If they were going to call one, they will call two cold. LAP might reraise, and I might even cap it, but it will simply make the pot that much bigger, and ensure that the chasers will go to the river. No, instead I plan to raise the turn and hopefully drop a few chasers. The button also calls and we see the turn 4 handed.
The turn is the 2c. LAP bets again, one folds, one calls, I raise, button folds, LAP calls, caller drops. Heads up.
The river is the 3h. He checks, I value-bet, he calls. He has QJo and I take the pot with my king kicker.
Was this a good application of the turn-raise? Did I play the rest of the hand well? Was there a better way to play it?
Dave in Cali
I hate your flop play in this hand, and more specifically I hate your justification. As well, the Qc is both on the board and in your hand; obviously a typo, but it does have an impact on the turn play.
You Wrote: "Raising here won't limit the field at all. If they were going to call one, they will call two cold. LAP might reraise, and I might even cap it, but it will simply make the pot that much bigger, and ensure that the chasers will go to the river."
Anyone with a club draw is going to go to the river anyways. Anyone with a reasonable straight draw is going to go to the river anyways. The other problem for you in attempting to wait until the turn to try to blow people off of their draws is the relative positions of the two "big hands"; UTG and on the button. UTG will bet the turn, call-call, you raise and its reraised, and everyone is on the installment plan and will never drop.
I guess the question is what draws you have them on. If they are on clubs or open ended, no matter whether you raise or call, they are coming, so I'd want all their money in the pot on the flop.
Let's take an example: on the flop, someone has 86 and needs a gutshot 5 to win. You let them in for one small bet on the flop, they miss, and they fold, having lost one SB, or even worse, they hit, and they checkraise you into oblivion. Alternatively, you and LAP cap it, he misses his gutshot, and now he has "odds" to call for his 11-1 shot. Who cares? If you are best on the flop (still an if against LAP), you will still win a bigger pot 11 times out of 12, having sucked 4 SB out of gutshot man on the flop, and maybe some more on the turn.
I'd never let someone have a free or cheap shot at beating me when I have such a vulnerable hand.
I'd also question what you would have done on the turn if LAP or caller had raised you. I don't really like the turn raise after the flush hits. Its not clear whether or not you have a club in your hand (as I said), but I'd have to have the Kc in my hand to raise the turn for sure.
I guess I just don't think you played this hand aggressively enough, and that you sprung to life at the wrong time.
David
Sorry about the typo, that kinda changes the hand considerably....
Some of your comments are well taken, but there is one thing you might not have considered. Keep in mind that when there is a GOOD draw against you, and you have the best hand, but one that is vulnerable, that callers with poor draws are benefitting the best draw, at YOUR expense.
Had I been raised again on the turn, obviously I would have called. However, it would cost the same to call the turn, then call the river, so by raising I might force someone to fold that might have outdrawn me. I doubt anyone at the table would three-bet the turn here without the nut flush, so if reraised, I would have folded.
I am interested to see your comments again after reading this. It is possible that I was using faulty logic at the time I played the hand, which is part of the reason I posted it here, to clear up the doubts I had about how I played it.
Thanks for the clear, concise opinion, which included justification for your statements. I always appreciate that, even if you are shredding my post to bits....
Dave in Cali
I rather enjoy hands where I think its clear what everyone has, and only two people have very much equity in the pot (as I would expect in this hand; I'd expect someone to have a big flush draw and you with the best made hand or else you are drawing slim to AA or KK, LAP tendencies aside).
So, if you are looking at your hand as a situation where you will win 55% of the time, the flush draw will win 35% of the time, and gutshot man will win 10% of the time, I'd rather he pay on the flop INCORRECTLY and then pay on the turn again (although this time CORRECTLY) and chase.
Lets look at an example situation: Say there is one raise preflop so 6 SB in the pot. The flop comes down: Kc 5c 6h
You have top pair (AdKd). Player A has nut flush draw(Ac 10c). Player B has a gutshot (8s 7s).
Gutshot will have 3 outs so he will hit 1/8th of the time to win (on the flop or turn, minus the times he gets redrawn on, which will be 1/5th or so, so he has about 8% equity in the pot). Flush man will have 9 flush cards to hit, so he will make it by the river about 1/3rd of the time, and he can't be drawn out on if he hits, so he has about 33% of the equity in the pot on the turn. You have all the remaining equity (barring miraculous runner runners, which I'll conveniently ignore).
When you have the most equity in the pot, I don't see why you wouldn't want the biggest pot you could get. If the idea is that gutshot man will call a flop bet and then fold the turn if the pot is small, but may call on the turn if the pot is big, I love that. I want him calling all the way when I have the most equity in the pot. Sure I'll get sucked out on sometimes, but the final result will be me with the most chips in the long run. This of course does add variance as well...
We now branch into two scenes: Capped on the flop 3 ways: now there are 18 SB in the pot. One bet on the flop only: now there are 9 SB in the pot. Around here, you still are about even money to win the pot, but you are getting 2-1 on your money. It simply has to be correct to raise in this situation.
Assume the turn is a brick: 2d
If you cap the flop, they will both (correctly) call the turn.
In this scenario, you have a 74% chance of winning a 12BB pot for an EV of 13.32 BB.
If you call the flop, you now have a 80% chance of winning the pot, but its only going to be 6.5BB (assuming gutshot man folds the turn as he should), making your EV only 5.2BB.
So, capping the flop is great if the turn is a brick.
If I understand your reasoning, you don't want to cap the flop because you don't want to give gutshot man odds to call the turn. I want to give him odds to call the turn, because the correctness of his turn call does not make up for the incorrectness of all his calls on the flop.
"Keep in mind that when there is a GOOD draw against you, and you have the best hand, but one that is vulnerable, that callers with poor draws are benefitting the best draw, at YOUR expense"
I don't agree with this statement in the end. I think the more correct way to look at it is "When there is a good draw against you, and you have the best hand, but one that is vulnerable, that callers with poor draws are benefitting the best draw and the best hand, at their OWN expense".
Welcome to hear flaws...I don't mean to be critical.
"If I understand your reasoning, you don't want to cap the flop because you don't want to give gutshot man odds to call the turn. I want to give him odds to call the turn, because the correctness of his turn call does not make up for the incorrectness of all his calls on the flop. "
Not exactly. By allowing him to call on the flop, he will wind up getting the correct odds to stay in. However, if he now calls a raise on the turn cold, he will be making a much bigger mistake than if he had called several incremental raises on the flop. Now granted, if it gets capped on the flop, he is making a pretty big mistakep, but then he will be getting the correct odds to call on the turn, when the pot is much bigger. I would prefer to let him make his major mistakes when there is only one card to come rather than two, that way I charge them the max to draw against me, but they only get one chance to do so.
"Keep in mind that when there is a GOOD draw against you, and you have the best hand, but one that is vulnerable, that callers with poor draws are benefitting the best draw, at YOUR expense".
In your example, you analyzed a three way situation, where one player has the best hand, the other has the best draw, and a third has a longshot draw. Here, I would be inclined to cap the flop without question, because there are only two players drawing against me, and the more I can raise, the worse I can make their drawing odds, even though it will not be possible to force the flush draw into making a mistake, because I can't bet enough. However, in a three way pot, with only one player chasing a longshot, the flush draw can't really suck THAT much equity out of my hand, because there is only one player drawing against me. That one player can only leak a small percentage of my equity away.
The situation changes though if there is a good draw and SEVERAL weak draws. Now, the flush draw sucks equity from all the hands, not just one of them. Each of the longshots draws still has outs to take the pot from YOU, but none of them can lessen the number of times that the flush draw wins the pot, barring certain minor exceptions, such as runner-runner full house or a straight flush. When the pot has five or six players, each chasing different hands which can beat you, their collective outs can lead to a whole bunch of cards which will hurt you, due to implicit collusion. It's one thing to allow a single player to chase a longshot against you, but when there are several draws, the number of cards which DON'T hurt your hand goes way down. Your chance of winning the pot may be a far cry less than it seemed when you flopped top pair. In the hand I discussed, I doubt that a raise on the flop would have gotten anyone out, nor a cap. Then they would all have odds to draw on the turn, and I certainly don't want that. By waiting till the turn to raise, I offered each one of them a chance to make a very large mistake, and more importantly for me, gave them an opportunity to fold, which benefits ME rather than the guy with the flush draw.
I think that the profitability of any hand should be in the # of bets invested RELATIVE to the EV of each possible play. I would rather invest two big bets to win eight than to invest five big bets to win twelve. This EV/bet ratio may be strongly affected when your actions either allow someone to draw or convince them to fold. If I spend two big bets on the flop, but allow my opponents to have a total of 16 outs drawing correctly against me on the turn, I might do better by spending those two big bets on the turn instead, and getting most or all of the weak draws to fold, and increasing the number of times I win the pot. In the hand I discussed, it wound up being heads-up after my turn raise, which probably benefitted me the most (had the original bettor actually HAD a flush draw... As it turns out, there wasn't a flush draw against me, and if I had known that, I would have been much more inclined to jack it up on the flop).
One other thing, waiting till the turn to raise in order to drive people out is not something I do on a very regular basis. Most of the time, it's better to just raise the flop. I will do an analysis based on this hand and post it later, it will be up as soon as I have the time....
Despite my response here, the TRUE nature of this situation may not in fact have been completely revealed by either you or I, and perhaps one or both of us still has it wrong. Therefore, if you, or anyone else has more comments or analysis, please DO elaborate....
Dave in Cali
p.s. I did an analysis a few months ago where I showed how the best hand fared, and how a flush draw fared, when there were six players in the pot, and four of them had four outs or less. I can't remember the name of it, it's somewhere in the archives, but it was derived from a hand than Mason played, but I altered in order to analyze a hypothetical situation. It was shortly after a post I wrote regarding Dan Hanson's article about exceptions to the FTOP. I will try to find it (I have it saved somewhere). When I do, I will either email you or post it.
I like your call on the flop and raise on the turn, not because no one will drop on the flop, but because you create a two-way street where you can either maximize your hand on the turn, or lose less if an unfavorable card hits.
I do have a question about your pre-flop call. Even though your hand figures to be considerably stronger than the intitial raiser's, does KQ also figure to be best even after two people cold called his raise?
I really have to start reading these hands more carefully. After reading David's post, I noticed that it was a two of clubs on the turn. Here, I don't like your turn raise at all, although I assume you could fold for a re-raise. Also, your bet on the river has less value, but I suppose might be still correct given your description of the player. Sorry for not taking the time to read more thoroughly.
f
Dave,
Is this a loose aggressive game or a loose passive game with one aggressive player? You play the hand as if everyone will call anything but never raise.
Pre-flop, I would raise to try to gain position. If players are going to call two cold with junk aren't they going to often 3-bet behind you? Trying to keep the pot small when playing against maniacs is a brutal strategy.
I also would've raised the flop. They will call two cold routinely but you don't expect it to be raised behind you? If you try and wait until the turn to limit the field when playing against maniacs, you're going to be pounding your head against the table and muttering to yourself about reverse implied odds all night. I try and thin the field as soon as possible against these type of players.
Dave,
I had the benefit of reading all the posts before my response. For the most part, I like the total overall play of your hand. I assume that with 6 players that you had the final action and that the blinds came along preflop for 2 bets apiece. Is this correct?
I agree with just a call preflop here after the LAP raise. Even though you might have best hand preflop, you still have to hit to win. I've seen all too often someone 3 bet with similar cards and then the flop come something like A72 rainbow. What can you do now? You've gotta have steel nutz to try and semi-bluff 5 other players, especially a LAP who most likely gonna make you show a hand. It'll cost a lot of $$$ for a play like that.
I agree too with the flop smooth call. I think if you're against a nut flush draw on the button, he's gonna raise with 4 callers to him. Everyone's invested $24 already, anyone with some piece of the flop and an overcard or draw isn't going anywhere yet.
The turn is only going to help the flush draw... if any. Otherwise it's a blank. Your raise here is pretty gutsy with just top pair, however you pick up the 2nd nut flush draw which helps. I think your raise here wins you the pot. It could be very possible that one of the blinds is in with 54suited type cheese.
Good read on your opponents and nice pot. As always, I enjoy your posts a lot. Keep up the good work.
Mike
Mike
Yours seems to be the dissenting opinion in that most responses so far have said that I didn't play it anything close to correct, especially Dave O's. I think that the play of waiting till the turn to raise, in order to more effectively thin the field, is fairly difficult to apply. I am still not sure if I made a good, fair, or poor application of it here, but some did make some good arguements for playing it different than I did here. The next time I have a good example of this play, I will post it again, so we can continue the debate.
I agree the turn raise is gutsy, but against certain players, you have to have cast iron heuvos in order to keep from getting run over in the long run.
Dave in Cali
Typical game for me, loose and relatively aggressive. I call an EP raise from the BB with 7d7h and we see the flop 7 handed.
Flop is 7 8 T with two hearts. Good flop, but dangerous, with str8 and flush possibilities galore. I bet the flop and the EP raiser calls, several call, button raises, I reraise, everyone calls, button just calls.
Turn is the Qc. Not the best card that could have come, but not the worst either (the worst would have been the 9h, that will probably be the river card!). I bet again and several drop, one calls, button raises again, I just call, fearing a straight, other player calls.
River is the Qh. This could be good or it could be bad, but I like it, at least for now. If the button has a straight, I am in heaven. If he has QT, I am in hell, with NO milk either. I bet the river and get called, the button raises. The caller appears as if he is going to fold now… you know, that defeated look, so I don't think that going for the overcall is going to make me the same amount of money with no risk. If I want to get another bet out of this hand, I will have to reraise. If the button pops it again, I will make the crying call, but expect to get shown QT. I reraise, caller folds, and I get the extra chips ready to call. The button doesn't raise though, and has a straight.
Comments welcome.
Dave in Cali
I tend to do the same with the underfull and a possible str8 board, but I think it is close and sometimes wrong depending on the button.
One thing to notice is that the turn didn't give anybody a straight that didn't already have one, and that the button didn't cap the flop but raised the turn (kind of a wait & see slow play with what he thinks is a monster, ie, prolly not 2 pair or a big flush draw, but the str8 or a set). Given the preflop raise, with some you can (nearly) rule out any 96 or j9o (which may reduce the weaker hands that raise you to exactly j9s).
Since you are risking 2 for 1, I think you want to be able to rule *in* that the player would do this with Q9, QJ, or Qxs (drawing to the flush and getting stupid on the river) or could have called a raise to see the flop with 96 or j9o (a bit loose). Basically, he needs to be stupid or loose, preferably both. Most, but not all of your (our) low limit competition fit this profile, so I like the raise. (It also helps if he'll slow down with 88 or TT or on the other hand occasionally 4-bet with j9 (crying call goot).)
It looks like there are about 25 big bets in the pot at the river, so the potential overcaller will be getting around 26-1. Even if he has that defeated look, I bet he overcalls at least half the time.
I think getting an overcall is more likely than having the best hand here. And you don't risk getting reraised when you're beat.
Hi gang,
Interesting hand that I played this morning. I would like to get opinions on my specific choice to "take one off"
3-6 holdem game, whole table is very loose passive, the only 2 raises have been by me with AK and AQ respectively. I've seen 2 guys limp with AA.
I'm in SB with KK. 5 people limp. I also just limp and complete the bet. BB checks and we take the flop 7 handed.
Flop comes AT4 rainbow... yuck. I just check and it gets checked to the cutoff who bets, button calls. Here's where I decide to take one off and just call.
The cutoff is probably the most aggressive player at the table and will bet with any piece of the flop... even a 4. The button has me puzzled since I've never played with him before. However, he and I are the only people accumulating chips at the table.
Two more people call behind me so we take the turn 5 handed.
Comments and criticisms about my decision here? Results to follow later.
Mike
I'd like to know what you do for a living that you can play HE in the morning hours. Do you have any job openings?
Zulu,
Actually unemployed right now, and don't have the bankroll to play at higher limits without really crippling myself.
What the powers that be say about playing poker for a living (although a very temporary arrangement) is true. It's a tough racket when you must win to pay some bills rather than one can "afford to lose" x dollars at a shot on a bad day. Fortunately, the skills get real sharp in a hurry and the short-term luck factor (good luck right now) helps immensely. However, that's another thread altogether.
So, I should be asking you... got any openings for a well-educated hard-working guy who's down on his luck? :)
You should raise preflop.
On the flop, the call is okay only if the cut-off will take the foot off the pedal on the turn if he does not have an Ace. If you can count on him to bet the turn nearly all the time, you probably should fold on the flop as you don't have odds to chase a 22:1 shot.
If he will check without an Ace a good deal of the time, then not only can you get two cracks at your 22:1 shot, you in fact may have the best hand.
I would raise pre-flop 100% of the time with your position and holding. Then I could bet the flop and find out more quickly where I am in the hand.
Checking is the worst way to find out where you are, IMO. I would have bet my KK if I were you to avoid the exact situation you describe--an agressive late position player betting after everyone checks. You better have some good skills to be able to figure out if they have you beat or not. Most often with an A high board and 4 players seeing the turn your KK is no good.
KJS
KJS,
I'd say that 98 times out of 100, I would raise preflop with KK in SB, however, given the texture of the game I decided it would be best in this situation to just call for 3 reasons:
1) Preflop my selection of playable hands are much better than my opponents 2) Postflop I can get away from an inferior hand or outplay them given the situation 3) Most importantly, because of my cramped bankroll (read above post under Zulu), I have to be more cautious instead of aggressive and not get caught
In addition, most of these players are super-weak and predictable. Anyone with an A would have bet out in this game. I've seen them routinely call with a backdoor flush or straight draws and try to hit runner-runner. Someone in the hand with J9, Q9, or QT would not be out of the question.
I did not give the initial bettor credit for much of a hand because I knew his tendencies fairly well. The button I think would have immediately raised with a decent A to thin the field. Because he just called, I was pretty sure that I had the best hand at this point, but not entirely. If I had my usual bankroll, I would have made a more aggressive play. But, in this case, I wanted to get the best odds that I could to improve my hand.
Your post definitely has merit for the points you make and most of the time I would be in complete agreement. Having a limited bankroll will make you do some non-standard things to minimize the fluctuations. Especially if some of those chips on the table have to go toward your electric bill.
Hope this helps to explain why I played this hand in a non-standard way.
Mike
Ok gang,
Here's the rest of the hand as it played out.
The turn is an offsuit K (OK, who didn't see that coming?) giving me a set. This card is good for another reason because it ties on anybody who's drawing for a gutshot. In this game, anyone with paint in their hand and a gutshot will come along for the ride.
I didn't want anyone to possibly get a free card if my hand was good on the flop... so I bet out to represent two pair. Good news is that all 4 came along for the ride reluctantly.
The river was another 4. Yippee.
I tried to look disgusted and bet out again. I got one call to the original flop bettor who raised me. The button folded and I reraised. I got paid off by both of them, 3 bets each.
For the curious, the original flop bettor had trip 4s with a weak kicker (but AK plays on board). The weak caller in between showed a T. It turns out that no one had an A on the flop as I suspected.
Now, I'm not at all advocating that I made a correct play according to anybody's book... far from it. I will say that I believe that by playing the hand in this way, I think I maximized my earn on the hand but minimized the potential loss. I also think that if I would have raised preflop, that everyone might have given up to the turn bet fearing two pair or a set.
Comments and criticisms welcome, Mike
I wonder how often you take the flop 7 ways and nobody has an Ace in their hand. I don't like it. Check/fold seems right to me. I would suspect someone is slowplaying.
The situation is much, much easier if you had raised pre-flop.
i have a simple question that i would like someone to answer please. I was playing no limit the other day.
I had a clear read on this guy, he is a usual bluffer. He comes out betting aggresstively on the flop, I raised him knowing he had nothing (which he didn't). I had Q,J offsuit and I knew he didn't have a pair or anything like that only an overcard. Anyway.. After i raised him he pondered for a few seconds and then put it all in.
Should I call? or was it a mistake for me to be raising him? If anyone is interested in knowing how I had a perfect read on this guy i can't tell you, but lets assume both of his cards were flashed.
thanks in advance
If you have a perfect read on him and you know your Q-J is good, then call. Then when he shows you a winning hand, get up from the table, ice down your nuts, and head back to the $1-$2 table.
Muck. Even if he doesn't have anything, you're not a huge favorite. The fact that he raises all-in means he has at least two paint cards and possibly a small pair. It's one of those situations you don't want to be in playing no limit...you're either way behind or a small favorite. Let it go and wait for a quality hand like KK or AA and let him bluff his whole stack to you. You've got a read on him, why waste it on a marginal hand like J-Q?
spanQy
I've played about 500 hours at casino 3-6 and 4-8. I've also played some 5-10 online and done pretty well. On the weekend I decided to take my first stab at 6-12.
The game had several players I knew well from the lower limit games and several players I had never seen before. Right when I sit down I fold my first two blinds. In my third hand I get KK on the button. A middle position player open-raises. I have never seen him play before (and he has never seen me), all I know is that he folded the previous two hands before the flop. I 3-bet, all fold to raiser who caps it. We see the flop heads-up.
Flop: 7-6-4 rainbow. A good flop for me. He bets, I raise, he reraises, I cap it. Should I have just called with the intention of raising the turn?
Turn: Offsuit 3. Still a good board for me. I doubt the board helps his hand at all.
He bets into me. Now I start to suspect AA. This is where I am unsure what to do. I figure I have two options:
1) Raise. If he just calls and checks the river I would still bet. If he reraises should I call? Fold?(I'm not THAT tight, but is it a sane option)? Is it ever correct to fold KK heads up in limit holdem?(now, of course I would if I KNEW he had AA).
2) Call. I figure I must be up against AA, KK or QQ. KK is possible but unlikely. Is it common for people to play QQ this fast in higher limits? (I know 6-12 is still small stakes, but the caliber of play is much better on average, at least at my casino).
I decide to play this one conservative and just call it out. He bets the river (a blank) and I just call.
Results posted below.
I guess the main question I have is how should an unknown opponent be handled. The aggressive move is to raise the turn and the conservative move is to call it out. What do you people do if you have nothing to judge the player by? Do you play it safe the first time to get a feel for your opponent or do you play it fast?
I called the river and he showed me AA.
Not exactly the introduction to 6-12 I was hoping for. Now I know I am destined to lose a lot of money on this type of hand. Could I have saved any bets anywhere? At what point should I slow down if he keeps pounding back?
Remember, you're as unknown to him as he is to you. The result of one hand doesn't matter much, except to the extent that you get information about the new player you can use later. The question on this hand is, how much are you willing to reveal about yourself? Do you want to show yourself capable of laying down KK or call down the hand to soften him up for later on? Raising, based on his representing AA -- which he probably has -- is not simply aggressive, it's reckless (not necessarily bad for establishing image -- he's going to remember it more than if you call). My own tendency would be to call him down, muck my KK when he shows the aces and keep him guessing.
There are a few things to consider. When you say "a middle player open-raises", I think it's important to know where he is. Someone open-raising when he is 4th to act isn't the same as someone open-raising when he is 7th to act. Generally though, I like to give someone credit for having a hand if they open-raise from the middle. The earlier they are, the more credit they get.
When he caps pre-flop you have to start thinking big pocket pair. AA, KK, QQ. Maybe AK.
I think you need to hit the brakes once he bets into you on the turn after you capped the flop. That says alot. At this point you have to call him down. I guess you could raise the turn and it would cost the same, as long as you were willing to fold if he 3-bets, or bets out on the river. I don't like making that fold though, so I call him down.
Some people might say that once he makes it 3 on the flop you can call him down, but I like to throw in that extra SB just to be sure. When he bets the turn call him down and expect AA.
You will lose a lot when KK runs into AA, there isn't much you can do about it. Your opponents will lose alot when their KK runs into your AA.
sam
Since he's unknown I'd just call him down. If he's just a little bit frisky, I'd raise the turn (then call his 3-bet or lead on the river or check raise on the river). I've seen QQ played like this often enough and any over pair (ie, down to 88) rarely, also 55, and even 89 (just talking hands you can beat). The turn would tend to take AKs out of the picture.
i was playing in a 3/6 game in Vegas. I am in the sb with pocket AA's. The cutoff raises and i decide to call rather than raise. The flop comes up Q37 rainbow. I lead the betting and get raised. I only call again. I lead the betting again on the turn when a rag turns. I get called and then i check the river and the cutoff checks.
He has AQ and i win 50 dollars. My thought is that i played the hand horribly. I should have probably check raised the flop. am i right
First off, if you haven't been 3betting in the sb against steal raises, then calling is ok, but 3 betting is good if you do it against steal raises often.
With this flop, I would have bet the flop hoping for a raise if he is aggressive. Then I would have called and gone for a checkraise on the turn (I'm assuming this hand was headsup). And of course bet the river for value unless the board gets really scary.
my two cents,
Jeff Gomberg
I tend to bet and 3-bet the flop and lead on the turn. If I'm positive of a bet on the turn, I would check-raise, but I'd really need to know the player was going to bet. I would rarely check-raise the flop, it is certainly fine to give a free card with that very good flop, but so many people take one off heads-up on the flop with nothing at low-limit that I don't bother. Definitely lead on the river almost every time, unless I wanted to check-raise someone I felt certain had an overpair who would bet the river -- just to kind of put a bit of fear into their value betting me.
One of the big things you can learn from this hand may be how he views you in that he checked the river. I can't imagine doing that, unless I thought the other player pretty timid.
Once you do the check-call manouver on the flop, I'd check raise the turn. Free cards are no worry here. Unless he bets the turn too, he is usually completely dead to you on this board given the action.
IF he has a queen, he will of course bet and you will get that expensive check-raise in.
Betting out on the turn ain't a huge mistake either, though, as he could raise you again with KK, AQ (if aggressive) and even worse hands. The question here must be whether YOU would go into calling mode after taking yet another raise in this hand. Unless you are prepared to three-bet a turn raise to, I'd put my money on a check-raise on the turn.
The added bonus is the times he takes the free card; You can now bet the river, and gain another big bet. If betted into on the turn, and with still no hand, your opponent will often lay down instead of calling two big bets down. However, once both check the turn, he could be prone calling with as little as AJ high on the river.
Good luck
Lars Vegas
preflop: the decision to cap or just call is a close one a matter of your style.
flop: i like your bet. and his raise signals either AA (not likely since you have aces), KK (which you dominate), QQ (which dominates you - you can find this out on the turn), AQ (most likely), JJ (if he is really aggressive), KQ, or QJ. since you only fear one of these hands i would just call on the flop and check-raise on the turn.
turn: if you are re-raised after you check-raise then you can almost definitely put him on QQ. then you have decided whether to call him down or not.
river: if he just called your check-raise then go ahead and bet the river. you beat any of his possible holdings.
bama gambler
Why wouldn't you bet the river? Any queen, pocket kings, and maybe even JJ-88 will pay you off. Don't be afraid of the monster under the bed.
Preflop is a matter of style I suppose. I prefer to 3-bet.
I'm siding with jd on the flop action. Bet, hope he raises and 3-bet. I don't like calling his raise and trying to check-raise the turn. He can raise with a wide number of hands here, many of which would benefit from a free card. AK/JJ-88 are all hands I might raise the flop with but check behind an opponent on the turn in this situation.
The benefits of this play is that you will charge your opponent a guaranteed 5 SB's to see the river. If you bet, get raised, call and try to checkraise you charge him 6 SB's to se the river when you manage to checkraise, but only 2 SB's when you don't.
He might be trying to get a cheap showdown. With the 3-bet/bet out play you charge him 7 SB's to showdown vs. 4 with the smooth-call/checkraise play.
Aah, the curse of being out of position.
The river is a clear value bet.
Anyway, enough rambling.
Sincerly, Andreas
Yes, this play was pathetic. Go ahead and re-raise with the Aces in the SB. Hopefully you'll lock out some of those drawing hands, and if not they'll pay you off more often than not. On the flop, I would probably re-raise again. Sure it gives away your hand, but if you raise pre-flop the pot it big enough where you don't want to give anyone odds. Make them pay to hit their kicker. Bet that river. You've got a Q-high flop with rags on the board. You've got aces. What are you afraid of??
spanQy
$5/10 10-handed game.
I have AQo in the SB. Next to UTG calls (NTH), another early position (EP) calls, button (loose raiser) raises, I cold call, BB call, rest call.
5 player, 10 SB
Flop: 4 J 7 r
All check to button, who bets, I call, BB calls, NTH check-raises, EP cold calls, button calls, I and BB call.
5 players 10 BB
Turn: Q, making a flushdraw possible.
Checked to NTH who bets, EP folds, button calls, I check/raise, SB cold calls, NTH calls his last $5 all-in, button calls.
River: 2 making flush possible.
I check, and it get checked around. I checked, because I was very worried about SB's cold call on the turn, which indicated two pair to me, or the backdoor flushdraw which he made on the river.
None of this ws true however, and I won.
Comments?
Where do you put everyone on? Hands in another post.
this is one of those situations I 3-bet pre-flop. One guy is a coconut and another is going all-in. You've got two big cards vs.two basically random hands, the BB and a limper. Try to knock out the BB and then EP will be the only hand you have to put pressure on.
button had...45s? who knows. NTH had a J low kicker, e.g. 8,9,or 10, BB had 56?,78, 89 810 or 910, maybe Q10?
I thought this was a pretty interesting hand, but apparently I'm wrong concluding out of the number of responses :-)
I didnt raise AQ out of the SB, because I wouldnt knock anyone out (NTH about to go all-in, button very loose, only BB maybe), and I dont like playing this hand without position. NTH could surely have some kind of hand though, he sure would pick his spot to go all-in, and not with some random hand.
I've learned myself to play AQ and AK very low varience, so I certainly didnt cross my mind to try some kind of steal on the flop, especially considering NTH's stack size. I thought with this flop I wouldnt see the turn (would fold to bet and raise), because I only continue with this hand if I would have a big overlay to a six outer (to conpensate for the case my outs are no good).
I think turn and river play are debatable. What could everyone have? I suspect NTH has some piece of the flop (he wouldnt go all-in with nothing), EP has probably top pair IMO (probably not AJ, some weaker kicker), or maybe something like 65. Button could have anything IMO. BB could have a whole rang of hands, from gutshot/open ender to a pair. So you know NTH will go all-in, but what are the advatages of each play? A check-raise will put great pressure on the BB, but less presure on the button. I still fear EP, because he could very well have QJ. I chose to put more pressure on the BB, because he could very well be on a draw, and the button is very loose and could pay me off with all kind of worse hands if I trap him.
So I escentially think it's player dependend in this case whether to bet out or to check-raise, due to NTH going all-in; which makes it an interesting turn decision IMO.
NTH bet, EP folded (relieve), button call (think something KT, AT or two hearts, maybe 98 or low Q). BB cold call really worried me, because what could he have consistant with his play? I would only think AQ, KQ, QJ, 98, 65 or two hearts (the J was the none heart, so that very well could be).
So if you assume this read is right, do you have to value bet the river, or check-call?
98,65 wont call, KQ will, QJ will probably not raise, but bet when checked, flush will probably raise.
So I think it dont make a diffirence if you bet or check/call against the SB, BUT because the button is in, who is very loose, and will pay off with many hands, I think I made a mistake by not betting out.
Regards
P.S. BB had T9, NTH AJ and button KT
Ikke:
I think you have an easy fold after the flop. Your call of a bet by the pre-flop raiser with several players to act behind will get you in trouble and frequently result in additional bets. You would have been better off raising the button then just a flat call. (I don't want to play results but if button is a loose goose you may improve your chance of winning the pot). If your call of a bet on the flop would end the betting action, then I might peel off a card.
Let me ask you something, if you knew EP had AJ, would you call the flop bet by the button?
Your hand can be severely handi-capped in this situation against multiple opponenets but you get lucky and hit your 3 outer. But you see what has happened; now all players with 10-9, K-10, and backdoor flush draws will play. You were fortunate that no one was on the backdoor flush. I don't beleive the pots odds were there on the flop as you were an 14-1 underdog.
"Let me ask you something, if you knew EP had AJ, would you call the flop bet by the button?"
Ofcourse not. I would be drawing a 3 outer at best, and a likely raise behind me.
Up to that point I had no clue what EP had however because he just called preflop and checked the flop; so he could have anything. I also didnt like to raise because that certainly could release a raising war with NTH about to go all-in.
If you assume I certainly was drawing a 3 outer than ofcourse I should have fold. But because everyone checked and a very loose button bet, I would estimate that I have about 4-5 outs, and therefore a call IMO. I think it's close however.
Regards
I've been playing low limit hold 'em(3-6, 5-10) in Atlantic City for a couple of years now, and winning modest amounts. Being on the east coast and not traveling much, I've never played anywhere else. I'm just wondering how the AC games compare to Vegas, LA, and anywhere else in terms of toughness of the game and the opponents? I mean, AC is the only game in town for hundreds of miles around.
The games in AC are pretty good overall. East coast players tend to be much more passive, and the AC low limit games are about the easiest in the country overall. I started playing there and played for about 1 1/2 years before I moved west. Vegas games have more tight regulars and rocks, but they also frequently have totally clueless tourists, especially late at night and on the weekends. California games are a totally different monster. Cali players have a "reputation", and it's well deserved. The games out here are very loose-aggressive compared to AC. It took some serious adjustment to get used to playing against a table with several aggressive players , each of them jacking it up with draws and far less than premium holdings. Limp-reraising with 52s is a perfectly normal thing to do, if you are a perfectly normal Cali player, that is. Players like to "make moves" too, especially raising the turn with squat, jack, or a pair of butt. It's not at all uncommon for someone to cap it with a draw, even if it's not an especially good draw. Better buy an extra rack when you play out here, you can burn through chips fast.
Dave in Cali
I would've thought that there were so many games in LA and in Las Vegas that the talent would "spread thin" so to speak. With so many poker rooms and casinos, the pros and the good amateurs wouldn't be able to hit them all. In AC, we certainly have a little of everything. I can always count on pretty easy 2-4 and 3-6 games, but once I get up to 10-20, the pros and regulars seem to make it harder.
10-20 in AC varies, but it is usually not an especially easy game. 5-10 varies from easy to pretty hard, especially if it is filled with 10-20 players waiting for their game. game selection is the key, choose them wisely. luckily, there are usually more than one to choose from.
Typical low-limit game, JJ 4th in. Two folds, 3rd in (EP) limps, I raise, BB makes it 3, EP calls, I call.
Flop is Q76 raibow. BB bets, EP folds, I raise, BB calls.
Turn is a T, no flush. BB checks, I bet, BB calls.
River pairs the T, still no flush. BB checks, I bet, BB calls.
I lose to KK.
When should I have slowed down? Fold to a single bet on the flop? Don't bet the river? All comments appreciated.
Tom
I think when he didn't 3 bet the flop, OR bet the turn, he MUST have AK, and so my hand is best. Which is why I bet the river.
It is my opinion that many low limit players tend to too often put pre-flop raisers on AK. This is almost always to rationalize their own betting/raising/calling because they have a nice looking hand that can only beat AK. Few players will call to the river with only AK. If he did pick up a gutshot with his AK he might call the turn, but I think you are mostly dreaming here. Wait for a better situation.
KJS
You mention nowhere in your post what you think the BB had. Nothing else really matters. What you should do is based on their holding, not yours. They 3 bet pre-flop and bet a Q high flop. Then they call a turn bet after a the board is Q76T. What can you beat?? AKs is the only legitimate 3 bet hand you can beat. Would they bet into you on the flop with AK? Call a turn bet with it? Not likely, IMO. I would have either folded on the flop or raised the flop and checked or folded to a bet on the turn, planning on folding to a river bet. You are toast.
You should slow down when you can't put your opponent on a worse hand. No matter how pretty yours looks.
KJS
I guess I assumed that AA, KK or any queen would have told me on the flop or turn. I couldn't imagine anything other than AK since he didn't 3 bet the flop or bet the turn.
He also could have you beat with a Q, weak kicker. When he bets, then calls, you should also think of that possiblity. This is more likely than AK in this situation, and you should be very cautious when an overcard comes out on the flop in a multihanded pot.
Again, why would Q-weak kicker have 3 bet pre-flop?
BB 3-bet -- first sign of monster from many many players.
Your bet on the river doesn't make much sense because AK will fold too often, and nearly everything but AK that he is likely to have will beat you. The number of hands that call that you beat is smaller than the number you beat, you made a negative value bet. With the call on the turn you should realize that you are either behind or playing against a hand that might not even call the river -- and that the former is more likely.
Something to ponder is that he basically put you on AA on the flop. Why did he do that? Does it say something about you, him, or both? Can you use the answer to that question profitably in the future?
I agree with you on the river bet.
Now about his play. At first I thought it was dumb, but after re-thinking it, I think it's pretty good. First off, if he is more aggressive and I have a hand that can beat him (AA, QQ) he will lose more. If he is aggressive and I have a hand that can't beat him I will probably fold. So I don't know if he has much to gain by pushing more. I bet his hand for him the whole way.
"So I don't know if he has much to gain by pushing more. I bet his hand for him the whole way."
Well, I'd quibble with a few things, but this last point is important. Stipulating your read of him (he figured "I'm out of position, and this guy is gonna bet anyway. I'm either way ahead or way behind, so fuggit"), does it say anything interesting about how he sees you.
Well, I'd quibble with a few things, but this last point is important. Stipulating your read of him (he figured "I'm out of position, and this guy is gonna bet anyway. I'm either way ahead or way behind, so fuggit"), does it say anything interesting about how he sees you.
What interesting thing are you seeing here? Maybe I'm missing it; I don't think this kind of play is that unusual. I guess lately I'm looking for situations where I have a strong hand, but am either far ahead or far behind. I don't need to win these pots right away if I'm ahead, and there's no reason to risk bets if I'm far behind. What's more, I think a tight image helps make this play more correct; slightly observant aggressive players will try to make you lay down hands because you fold a lot, yet if you play back at them you are screaming that you have something.
I think it's TOP that has this concept - if a player will bet with more hands than he will call with, then checking is the higher expectation. (Does this fall under Tommy's idea of 'Checking for value?')
I think it would be a near disaster for KK if he made less than he did here. If the BB played this hand perfectly, how is it that he got so good against me?
When someone plays really passively against me (and it's optimum), it often (not always) starts off warning bells -- that one of us is being a bit fishy. It's less important to me that people fear me or respect me than it is that I know how they see me (be it tricky, solid, weak, loose, fishy, easy to put on a hand, etc.) How the other guy played this hand is probably giving information on that score. Either I should exploit his weak-play (maybe I just scare the hell out of him and can adjust and use that better by, in this case, not betting the river) -- or I should come to terms with the fact that he's exploiting my over-aggressive play (and adjust to that by not betting the river). Even if Tom's only mistake is betting the river, it's a good size mistake.
Maybe I'm beating a dead-horse here, because it is generally conceded that the river-bet was a mistake. It's just that that bet isn't a mistake against everyone, but sometimes a thin value bet (players who would raise preflop and then chase and call on the end with any pocket pair or sometimes A-high).
I'm not sure what this hand means (or should mean) to Tom -- I'm just suggesting that it gives him information (without knowing what that information is) about how someone else sees him, and inviting him to think about it less from the perspective of how he played the hand, and more from the perspective of how this exact opponent played the hand. I'm glad to see he's already done that.
We talk alot about how to play against generic stereotypes (which is useful), but it's good to bring it back home to the specific pecularities of people at the table, too.
That's a long ramble, underdeveloping a bunch of things, but maybe you can see what I'm trying to get at!
i thought he had queen with a 2nd or third kicker. this means don't bet the river because you will only be called by someone who can beat you.
bama gambler
I just couldn't imagine him 3-betting pre-flop with Queen 2nd or 3rd kicker.
I probably would have folded the flop. I don't mind your play though. Had I played like you I definitely would not have bet the river.
Derrick
Daytime 6-12 at the Mirage.
Loose Fish (LF) to my immediate right limps, I raise with AsKs, Tight Tricky (TT) player in the BB hesitates in the BB then calls.
FLOP: 9s 2c 3d TT checks, LF checks, I Bet, TT check-raises, LF calls, I call
Turn: 4s [9s 2c 3d] TT bets, LF folds, I raise, TT hesitates, then calls.
River: 10d [9s 2c 3d 4s] TT checks, I check.
Results to Follow...
TT takes down the pot with 98o.
Comments appreciated.
I'd probably give it a bet. It's usually worth betting here because he only needs to fold a small percentage of the time. I think it's closer than usual here because he probably made the decision to call down on the turn and the ten probably won't change that. I think betting is marginally the correct play.
Chris
The title of my post refers to both the turn semibluff raise and the river.
Skipping the math, my opponent has to fold the turn 1 in 35 times to make the semi-bluff break-even. I think the raise is clear.
My opponent has to fold 1 in 11 time to make a river bet correct. While I am usually hesitant to make a river bet with AK, I think betting is clear in this case.
I doubt that he'll fold often enough because the turn semibluff is thin. You isolated and let it go at two bets on a perfectly safe flop when your opponents might not have anything the fish was sure to call (I'm not suggesting you should have played it differently). Everything therefore rides on him being 90% sure that you lucked into AA/KK and maybe QQ. Expect a call at least a quarter of the time, probably more, depending on what he's seen from you.
Also expect him to show you queens some of the time.
Expect a call at least a quarter of the time, probably more, depending on what he's seen from you.
Assuming you are talking about the river, if he will only call a quarter of the time, then a river bet is clearly correct.
That's right, but I meant the converse -- he'll fold no more than 1/4 of the time or call at least 3/4's of the time. Clearly, if he'll call no more than 3/4's of the time a bet is correct, but my point is that there's a high floor here.
But let me try again because I think there's a better analysis.
Two assumptions: (1) his bet on the turn after getting called twice suggests at least a pair and his call of your raise on the turn suggests this more strongly; (2) Unless they have nothing at all, as a general rule players tend to look harder and take more seriously reasons to call than they do reasons to fold. This is truer (and certainly more rational) when the pot gets above eight big bets or so (5-6 being about average).
Your bet on the river followed by a turn raise in when he's shown strength is certainly evidence of something better than top pair. It's a well-mimicked slowplay.
OTOH, however,
1) your preflop raise could be justified with a lot of hands (against not just a fish but a late fish);
2) the board has no ace of facecard or 4-straight or 4-flush to threaten, but instead
(3) consists of ragged garbage, which limits his concerns to a big overpair or set of tens, although
(4) for the same reason you would know that there's some chance that he doesn't have anyting, and
5) you didn't 3-bet when you were fairly sure of two callers, but instead
(6) raised as soon as it was heads-up, after
(7) the turn could have given you one of several draws that
(8) obviously missed on the river where
(9) he's getting 11-1.
Would he have folded? I doubt it. I wouldn't, and I can make appalling laydowns.
Chris,
Thank you very much for taking the time to respond in depth. It is greatly appreciated. This is what I was looking for.
For whatever it is worth, I would have felt much better had I bet and been called.
If you like to play you AK hard, you should consider three-betting the flop, with position on both players, two overcards and a runner-runner nut flush draw.
These cards effectively represents about 8 outs to either top pair/top kicker or nut flush draw. Aside of that, you hand may be good 1 or 2% of the time you don't improve.
Tight, tricky player must be prone to making major lay-downs on the turn, if your move here is to be correct. A check-raise out of position usually signals a fairly strong hand, and it's usually stupidity to invest two big bets on the turn trying to bluff them off (I'd like to move better if you had improved to a flush draw).
Furthermove, would you have tried to continue bluffing the river if a Queen or a Jack had fell on the river?
lars
I'd like to move better if you had improved to a flush draw
I did have a flush draw, 2 over cards, and any 5 to a straight.
Furthermove, would you have tried to continue bluffing the river if a Queen or a Jack had fell on the river?
I think I should have bet the river with any card except a 9.
I think you played the hand well. I would have 3 bet the flop. Having done this I probably would have been checked to on the turn, and I would bet. I would have checked the river.
Derrick
I would have 3 bet the flop.
The fish calling 2 cold stopped me from 3 betting. TT was a good player, and should have recognized that I might have been trying to trap the fish for another BB on the turn.
I am a normal high limit player, but I have recently started playing poker online at paradise. I stick to lower limits because I fear collusion a little (not what this is about). I have been winning very well over 50 hours (I know that doesn't count for much). Here is a situation that comes up frequently and makes me unsure what to do.
I am dealt AKs UTG. I raise and get one cold caller in LP and the blinds. For those of you who aren't familiar with this game, it is very loose. Players regularly defend blinds and will play with any face card.
The flop comes K74 rainbow. Perfect. I bet out. Only the blinds call (I now have the button). Turn is a 2 that makes a two flush. Checked to me, I bet...the remaining blinds call. I am getting worried here. I figure that I am up against at least a two pair (K4, K2, 42, etc.) and possibly the 56 straight draw or flush draw. But I also didn't get check-raised...so maybe I am still ahead. The last card is an 8 (making a straight possible, but no flush). It is again checked to me and I bet. Is this correct? Big Slick held up in the end...I just don't know what these guys could have had.
So, basically, my question is: in the type of low-limit hold-em where your opponent could have A,K,Q, with a rag...if you flop top pair, top kicker with the rest rags, when should you assume he paired his bad kicker...is there any consistent way to tell? Any comments are greatly appreciated.
Chris
Chris.. I think you played the hand correctly. If someone sucks out on you that's just the way it is in Low-limit games. You can't be worried about someone hitting a bad kicker for two pair if you expect to win anything. You will cost yourself money in the long run. Most LLP are VERY obvious when they hit 2 pair or trips with a raise and never (or rarely) a check raise. If you get beat by two pair sobeit. Remember you will win more with your top pair and good kicker then be beaten by two pair so make as much $$$ as you can.
Not sure there is any educational value to this hand at all. Maybe entertaining though.
7 handed. 2 limpers to me in mid-position.
I limp with 33. button limps. blinds check.
flop comes J96. Its checked around.
Turn comes K. Guy right in front of me bets. I decide I _might_ have best hand right now, or might be able to push bettor off his hand even if I dont so I raise. Button calls ... woops I needed this heads up ... oh well. Blinds fold. I consider the hand basically over.
River comes a rag, that completes a backdoor flush. Oh wait ... whats my hand I have to look ..... oh ya ... I have a pair of those rags. I now have a set of 3's. First guy checks.I bet. Button raises. First guy calls. I call.
They both have K9. no flush. I win.
I guess this is a little like the "44" hand that got beat into the ground a while back though.
Let's see… You raised the turn in a seven way pot with an underpair with four overcards on board… did you REALLY think no one had a king? And did you REALLY think they would fold it if they did? I don't like the play at all, you were playing with two outs at best, and against seven players, there was virtually no chance that you had the best hand, especially not when someone bet into you on the turn when a king showed up.
You better read my post on "the Poker Gods reward stupidity" on the general forum. There's a reason why you won this pot.
I certainly pushed my Jacks too hard in the previous post, thats clear. But I think knowing when to stop pushing when there is a good chance you are beat is a very difficult concept. (At least for me). I think this occurs most often with AK when you flop nothing or KK&QQ when an overcard flops. Here are a few situations I generally have trouble with and I'd like to know what you guys think.
1) AK early, you raised before the flop, got two opponents, the flop comes out all undercards, you bet, both people call. Another blank hits the turn, what do you do? When do you quit? How many opponents/what cards on the board will slow you down faster? What if you are heads up?
2) You have KK early, raise before the flop, get two opponents, and ace flops, you bet, they both call. What do you do on the turn if it doesn't help you?
3) You have T9 in the BB. 3 limpers. Flop comes T high. You bet, get called 3 ways. What do you do on the turn? If the turn is A or K? Q or J? Lower than 9? Makes a 3 flush?
4) Do you think you'll get more respect if you bet an ace high flop if you raised or didn't raise pre-flop? If you raised pre-flop you are betting the ace almost no matter what, and people know this. If you didn't raise pre-flop people have no reason to believe you have a strong hand.
I'm just rambling now.. Comments welcome..
1) It's hard to give solid rules, it depends on the opposition. But generally I with two opponents I would bet the flop but check the turn. With one opponent I would bet both the flop and turn, river action depends on the board and the opponent. With 3 opponents I might bet the flop. With 4 or more I check/fold the flop.
2) If the flop is raggedy, say A 7 2 rainbow check the turn. If it's somewhat coordinated, say with a two-flush or with 2 or 3 to a straight, bet the turn and fold if raised.
3) I don't bet the flop. Check and see what happens. If it's been bet and raised you have an easy fold. If it gets bet late you can checkraise. The difficult situation is if it's bet behind and a couple of callers. Then knowledge of the opponents comes into play. If it gets checked around that isn't so horrible, the overcards would probably have peeled one of anyway. If I were to bet the flop I would bet the turn if a Q-2 comes. If an ace turns it's check/fold time for me.
4) Most players will give you more respect yes.
Just my plays. Not sure they're all correct, especially #2 is tricky.
Sincerly, Andreas
1) 4 babies 3-way, I bet AK like it's the best hand or excellent draw on the turn.
2) 3-way, A on the flop, got KK -- what to do on the turn? It depends on the texture of the flop, straight draws, flush draws, etc. -- also on the other players (and how they see me, how they respond to my preflop raises, how they play on the flop), are they likely to be there with a weak or suited A, are they likely to be scared by the A even if they have one, do they tend to take one off on the flop with any backdoor draw or to see if I run out of steam, etc. This can be a hard hand, if this is your biggest leak you are in the clear.
3) This is a smallish unraised pot (due to the size of the turn bet) and I'm out of position...
check about a quarter of the time and see if I can play a five outer depending on where a bet comes from or fold
*or*
check and call about a quarter of the time (or rarely raise) if last to act has 'take-a-shot' disease;
*or*
bet and hope the rest of the time and depending on opponents you can look for an opportunity to fold.
When you have no clue where you are on the turn and a better hand might very well check, having it checked around is not a disaster. Likewise, when a worse hand will very likely bet, you have a good bluff-catcher, that's why I check so much.
Ideally, if you can depend on only or mostly a better hand to bet, then checking and folding is fine.
The turned three-flush is often not scarey at low-limit against players who you can absolutely count on to jam the flop with a flush draw, and these same players will wake up and now bet and raise their new found draws. You need to mix things up on the flop a lot with these kinds of hands, by the way.
If my bet on the flop screams top-pair and my check on the turn screams that I hate the ace, I've got bigger problems than this one hand. On the other hand, if they don't have any read on me, and I don't have any read on them -- then I don't think a check/fold is horrible -- it may just look like I took a shot at the pot on the flop and gave up with nothing on the turn.
4) Some opponents always put me on KK/QQ when an A flops, others like to put me on AK when small/mid cards flop -- my challenge is to make this thinking unprofitable for them (it's hard because they are so often correct :)) and this is a critical component of figuring out how to improve my EV when it actually happens. The keys, I think, are mixing up your pre-flop and flop play or, at least, knowing who you are in the pot with.
These questions deal with turn actions, but how you got here and the message that other's have thus-far received from you is important. They also all deal with some tough hands out of position, which is, well, tough, because the hands are tough and, you are, well, out of position, which can be, well, tough.
1. Check. If you raised before the flop, then bet the flop and got called twice, someone has a pair and they ain't going to fold.
2. Check. If it gets bet, fold. If both opponents check behind you, check the river, but call if one of them bets.
3. I bet the turn in any of those situations. If raised, fold. If no raise, check the river, but call if there is a bet.
4. People are more likely to believe that the ace helped you if you raised BTF. Respect is somewhat dependent on your opponents. Magoos give no respect because they never think about what you might have. Good players are unlikely to be in there with an ace if you raised preflop, unless they have a good ace themselves….
that you are willing to grapple with these "tough calls" is a good sign you're on the right track.
1) on the turn, I count 9.5 small bets in the pot and there's a good chance you have 6 outs. the combination of the draw plus winning the pot outright even if you're behind lends weight to the betting option (the combined success rate from betting need only amount to about 25%.). additionally, since most your opponents didn't see the flop, it means that what's left of the deck is more likely to be king-and-ace rich than normal.
2) I've been in games where half the players or more simply won't fold Ax unsuited preflop raise or no raise. let's assume this is one of those games. and let's say you hold KK and raise late preflop, get JUST 2 limpers to call and the flop comes A T 3 two-suited. if someone else bets out, you should sometimes consider raising with the contingency plans of FOLDING to a reraise OR if your opponent comes out betting on the turn after having called the raise; and CHECKING behind an opponent who calls the raise and checks the turn. otherwise, fold.
now let's say you held KK, raised from late position and got 5 or more callers with that same flop. if it gets checked around, I think checking along is best. notice that the chance of someone backing into broadway has been substantially reduced because of your holding.
3) check from the BB
4) opponents will fear you have an excellent kicker if you've raised pre-flop and appear to like that ace-high flop.
Hey,
The following is a situation that I'd like someone to confirm that I made a big error. O.k here it is:
I'm dealt pocket Aces in middle position and raise preflop.
About 6 callers.
Flop: 2 4 5 (two spades)
2 players check to me , I bet and three players call behind me.
Turn: 4 (no spades)
UTG bets, one caller and it is up to me!!!
I was quite sure that the UTG had a 4 because he very seldom bets without a big hand.
The pot is a good size and I figure my raise will knock out the three players behind me and increase my chances of winning if a A comes or the bettor does not have a 4. I realize that I am calling to the low half of a gutshot , and if a three comes I might win the pot if I knock out the players behind me.
Do I fold , call , or raise?
Results to follow.
Later, JM
OK, there's 10 big bets in the pot. The odds of you hitting an ace are 22-1 so you don't have pot odds for an ace. A 3 may be good though, as long as someone doesn't have a 6 in their hand. But the board is paired so your str8 draw may be no good (if he has 4-5, 5-5 or 3-4 etc.).
I fold here, trusting your read on UTG. There simply isn't the odds to draw out and I'm not sure if I like a 3 or not.
I tend to raise thinking I was punishing 2, 4, and 9 outers, but I'd call a lot to. I'd never fold. That's really a great turn card.
Any overpair or flush draw can bet here, to feel you out, and/or set up a bluff on the river. What is this particularly UTG likely to have here that you don't like (is it limited to 55, A4s, A3s?, or can it be anything 36o, j4o, etc). You say he seldom bets without a big hand, okay -- what would he need to 3-bet? if its 44 or 55, then I still raise with what I fear is the worse hand.
If the guy is capable of going after a pot (however seldom), this would be where he did it. That's a great turn, let's make a pot for some lucky gambler.
UTG, based on what I know of him has a 75% chance of holding a 4 for three of a kind. He will seldom reraise if he is raised.
Do I raise (even though I think i have the second best hand) to eliminate the players behind me?
Or do I fold? Or call?
You can't fold -- by your own estimation of 75% chance he has a four. Stipulating 75% (which seems really high, btw), there's no, zero, nada, zippo, bupkiss, doubt about that, right?
If he would very rarely re-raise even with a bona fide monster (say, underfull), then things get interesting. If the people behind me are as likely as not to have overcards, then I want them in the pot drawing dead (call). If they are more likely on legitimate draws or would call a raise with overcards then I raise.
All in all, I don't mind if they call behind me or fold -- although, if I got them to fold overcards it obviously costs me money. The pot is already huge, and it's going to get bigger unless no one has a hand.
So back to the flop -- the action suggests to me that there's not much out there which makes calling close (usually low-limit, multi-way, draws will jam) -- but there's so darned many of 'em, *and I like to raise*, so I'd raise most of the time. If nothing else, the guy in the middle will at least be obliged to call, probably drawing dead or nearly so -- now, if middle guy re-raises, that scares the piss out of me.
The fact that utg will get passive with his monsters will make me tend to check behind on the river (by then the pot is big enough even for me), and it costs the same -- I'm not trying to get off AA under any but the absolutely wackiest circumstances here.
If there's only a 75% chance he has a 4 (or has a 4 beat) then you have to see it down. I assumed by your first post that you were almost certain he had a 4 or better.
If he's not the type to play back at me without a monster, I raise and fold to a re-raise. I check the river. A raise gets you the two bets when you have the best, only costs you 2 bets max, and gets you 3 bets when the miracle ace falls on the river.
It would be rare indeed that you could fold to a 3-bet.
You're not raising in part because it gives you the opportunity to fold, you're raising because you have a monster and you're playing against someone who will only under extreme conditions force you to call another bet even when he is better (as you happen to suspect he is).
You raise the turn because you are protected by his timidity and the chance he doesn't have quads or boss full. As painful as his re-raise is, calling down with your hand will be a *very* small mistake even against oopponents where it is one at all (and they will be rare). The size of your error would never constitute a leak in your game that requires much attention.
Fix the big things -- like even thinking that folding after he bets is an option.
You only have 3 legitimate options:
1) fold now 2) raise now, call him down if he plays back at you 3) raise now, fold if he plays back at you
Calling the turn then folding the river is ridiculous, and calling the turn and calling the river is dumb because you could do option 2 for the same price (but make more if you win).
I think your hand is too big for option 1 (although some people might argue differently). I think your hand is too small for option 2. Option 3 is the only other choice. I doubt anyone who would play a 4 UTG would be tricky enough to 3 bet the turn without a hand better than yours, so you'll be able to confidently muck your hand.
tom
Folding is not a legitimate option. JM likely ran into a monster here and is agonizing over how he could have lost less. If that's so, he's making a mistake in my opinion -- of course I hope to hear more from you and others. He's got a great board for AA in a big pot.
He can only rarely confidently muck to a 3-bet turn on the theory that a guy who as a 4 UTG would rarely be tricky enough to play back at him -- why, because by the time it gets back to him he's likely to be getting 16-1 for the pot. Combined with a 2-outer, that trumps 'rare'.
If a 3-bet causes this much sphincter tightening, then just call for general health reasons (or raise, and have a supply of coal on hand in order to make a diamond).
Hey,
I raised and everyone called.
A spade fell on the river. UTG bet out and it was raised to me. I folded on river I could "tell" one of the players behind me also had a flush. 3 in the show down ... two flushes and a set of fours.
I was beating myself up because I thought the best play was to fold on the turn when UTG bet into me (with his set of fours)
later folks, JM
thanks everyone for your thoughts. My crappy play was at the very end of my session and i had left with a $270.00 win. Probably should have left before the blinds.
Online 2-4$ game. Pretty tight and fairly passive. The worst player at the table is in the BB. Atleast that's my read at the time.
I'm UTG and pick up AQo. Decent hand but I hate it in this spot. I raise to thin the field. All fold to BB who calls.
Flop: Qc 4c 3d
BB bets. I call, planning to raise the turn if a non-club hits.
Turn: 9h, Board: Qc 4c 3d 9h
BB bets and I fire my raise. He 3-bets. Uhuh. This is bad. I call, praying for a weaker Q or a overplayed flush draw.
River: Jd, Board: Qc 4c 3d 9h Jd
BB bets and I call. He shows 33 for bottom set.
When I look back on the hand the turn raise seems stupid, unless I can fold to his raise. If he was bullying me he'll fold. If he has a better hand he'll reraise. The only profitable situations here for me is when he has a decent Q or a flush draw.
Comments please!
Sincerly, Andreas
Your first paragraph should have been your key: "Pretty tight and fairly passive."
Also, you said "The worst player at the table is in the BB." (worst meaning bad, or most obviously tight/passive?)
On the flop, when he bets into the raiser, in bad position, that leads you to think weak queen or overplayed flush later?
If you don't raise on flop (to find out where you are), and he's bad, check-raise at the end if you think you hand is good. You have position and can insure the most bets
With bad I meant loosest, I saw do a couple of weak moves preflop.
On the flop I figured he would bet in to me any pair since it was heads up. I know I would. On the turn I didn't think he had a weak Q or an overplayed flushdraw. I was praying and doing weak calls.
Sincerly, Andreas
Tight and passive doesn't make for a very beatable low limit game.
"The only profitable situations here for me is when he has a decent Q or a flush draw."
Add a str8 draw. How many hands is that? Now add two-pair. Now a big pair under the queen. Now an over pair.(which he also won't tend to 3-bet) -- you have a lot more hands than sets. You don't need to be able to fold to a 3-bet, to raise the turn against someone you don't really know; but if you think someone is really tight, then the flop is a good place to get information.
I'd usually raise the flop, but (results oriented thinking alert) that may have cost you more money with a check-raised turn. Smooth calling the flop is not unreasonable. You have a big heads-up hand that you aren't looking to get off or even play cheaply except against an absolute little old lady.
It happens. Drawing dead with a big hand sux. Next hand. If you're struggling, this ain't your problem.
What I meant was the only hands that he'll (unless he's very loose) call my turn raise with that I can beat is weaker Q's and flush/straight draws.
On the other hand I want to charge his draws (when he's drawing) the max.
Maybe I'm just result oriented. I probably should find me a softer game aswell.
Sincerly, Andreas
You don't have to bet the river when he calls your turn raise. If he had a draw that missed, he won't pay off. So you fail to value bet when he has a queen unless you improve -- that's okay, you collected in advance. He had two-pair? -- well, he got paid off in advance. Your impulse to collect double from a draw on the turn is right -- unless, of course, he wouldn't bet a draw heads-up on the turn...
Using your position to wait and hammer him on the turn for an extra small bet is a valid strategy if you suspect his hand is weak and will bet into you. Keep in mind this move can be a bit risky in that you allow people in for cheap on the flop, and also you don't really find out his true strength until it gets expensive. Higher risks, higher reward.
When I look back on the hand the turn raise seems stupid, unless I can fold to his raise. If he was bullying me he'll fold. If he has a better hand he'll reraise. The only profitable situations here for me is when he has a decent Q or a flush draw.
Most of the time he WILL have a weaker Q or flush draw. He may be even weaker than that. You lose money if he is on a stone cold bluff or if he has a monster.
If I did this against a typical opponent and he 3-bet the turn I would fold. He has a monster or at worst a better hand. The pot is not really that big, let him have it. For a player 3-bet the turn with nothing is undue action and he would end up paying off way too much to survive a typical ring game.
Jim
I need to start folding in theese spots. I've noticed that I'm paying off way to much in these situations. Giving my opponents credit for more trickyness then necessery. Thanks for the pointers.
Sincerly, Andreas
I agree with you Jim. I don't have any problem with the turn raise, but when he three bets it should be a fairly easy laydown. The best thing for you to be able to hope for is that he is on a draw or has the same hand. Plus, you stated that he was the worst player so the chips should return to you soon enough. I think that turn raising here helps you with his hand. A flop raise that gets back raised doesn't clear things up very much as many players will three bet flops with draws or weaker queens if they think you are bluffing. A three-bet turn tends to be way more serious. By betting and folding at the turn vs calling a 3-bet flop, and then calling down, you save one big bet on the hand.
Andreas, Malmuth&Sklansky have actually covered these situations in their book 'Hold'Em Poker For Advanced Players'.
They write that if you are bet into after raising pre-flop when the flop comes Ace high (not three-suited I would presume) and you hold AK (AQ probably works pretty much the same), you should wait until the RIVER to raise. Yes, that one pretty much had me pondering questions, too.
But their reasoning were very good. First, you get your opponent, when playing the best hand, paying you off the whole way. Who knows, maybe he just like to push until raised, and would fold on the turn if getting the raise here. Secondly, you are almost secured against re-raises except from the nuts, as opponents will fear a slowplayed monster or a lucky river catch.
I definitely think that this is a situation where a sane opponent would punish you for one bet less if you held in that last raise for the river.
raise on the river.... Lose less when you are a dog and win more when you have the best hand..
We have some discussion of this type of situation in HPFAP-21. Generally, when someone bets in this spot, since they know you would bet automatically being the preflop raiser, they have frequently made a very strong hand and are looking for extra bets or are bluffing. (Note: I'm not saying that you should not lead here with a medium strength hand. I'm saying that this is the way many non-expert opponents play.) Notice that in either case you don't want to raise. If he has it your raise will cost you extra money, and it he is bluffing, your raise will stop his bluff and cost you extra money.
Sure wish I would have read this post before I put my foot in my mouth.
2 off the button I open raise AKo. (Unknown) button 3 bets, all fold, I call.
Flop is Ad Qd Ts. I have no diamond.
I bet, button raises, I call. I check call the turn and river (both blanks) to be shown QQ.
Did I play it right? Can I get away from it?
tom
You lose the minimum here. There are a lot of ways you can play this hand, but in all of them you want to make it to the showdown, I think.
I 3-bet the flop a lot or if I just called his raise I lead on the turn usually or on the river some. I'm not trying to push it and/or look for a place to fold, but I do have a hand.
I would not check the flop (trying for a check/raise and not fearing a free card or to set-up a check/raise on the turn) against an unknown, but maybe that's just me.
It does look good at first, but the flop raise and turn bet should bring pause. If I am very familiar with the player I might be able to fold on the turn since some players will only 3 bet pre-flop and raise this flop with AA or QQ. Basically, you can only beat KK and split with AK if your opponent has usual 3 bet standards pre-flop. If they wouldn't play either of those in the manner described, you are drawing pretty thin on the turn (4 Jacks only). I would expect to lose most of these hands but you did only lose the minimum.
Seems like a theme of LL posts this week: I have something good but I lost to something better after I was re-raised or raised at every opportunity. Well, that is how people let their opponents know that they are beat. It should not be a habit to pay off in all of these circumstances. Its about situations, not cards. Analyze the situation. For LL that mostly means asking what hands can I beat and would my opponent play them that way? In your case, few players would play a hand you can beat in the manner you describe.
That is not to say I would be able to lay it down either but we should both look more deeply than "I had something good, can I possibly fold?"
KJS
Agreed, but you have no read on the opponent, you want to make it to the river in these situations. If paying off here is a leak in low-limit, the game isn't good enough to play.
We do agree. I don't like the word leak, so let me clarify. If you cannot lay down a good hand heads-up in any level of poker after your opponent shows strength you do need to do some extra work on your game. Many many situations arise in Hold 'Em where two people both have good hands. Most big pots arise from these scenarios. It is my experience that many LL players (myself included, often) stop thinking and start calling when second best. I have found that after the fact I realize if I would have taken some time to investigate some rational holdings for a players hand I would realize that there are very few hands I could beat and very few of those would be played in the manner in which my opponent played. I don't go around looking to make great laydowns but I do think that non-expert players tend to focus too much on how nice there hand looks when the real question is what does your opponent have. LL players seem to have an inflated fear of being bluffed or seem to look for hands that there opponents are overplaying instead of just accepting that they are beat. When these players are tight I realize it is harder because they play fewer hands but the point is there are times where you have a premium hand and your opponent does too and the board helps them way more than you. If that happens you can lose a lot or a little. Try to find a time where you think you are doing the right thing and save a couple bets. Chances are the next time you'll be on the winning side.
KJS
Typical loose-passive $5-10 live game. I'm in the cutoff w/ QTc. UTG and 2 middle players limp. The button is a calling station, but obviously is not all that sure about his hand. I raise, button folds, SB folds, BB calls, limpers call. Now here's the question: is my reasoning OK in deciding to raise? I'm thinking I can buy position by dropping the button, maybe get a free card if I need it on the flop, but I can still get out cheap if the flop hits someone else. The rest of the hand was a dream: The flop came J98 rainbow, turn: K, river: 4, no flush possible. BB had flopped a set of jacks and stuck with his hand. I wouldn't even normally ask, but I'm afraid I'm letting the results influence my assessment. Even knowing I had position, is the suited QT too weak to raise against a group that passive?
gaining last position was probably worth part of your raise, but in general I wouldn't make that raise. I would just call with QTs because it's just not very strong, and you want to see the flop before spending a lot of money on it.
also if the button is a calling station, then you can pretty accurately predict his play, which unless you are dead wrong about is almost as good as having position on him. not to mention if hees not happy with his hand then its probably cards nowhere near yours, so if you have any chance after the flop, he probably wont get too much in your way.
all in all I think that your better off having him in the pot in this situation, then not having him there, even with the position you gained.
I think the fact that the Q and T were same-suited justifies the raise, especially against passive players. for one thing, they tend to automatically check the flop to the pre-flop raiser. and, when that happens, plenty of flops will appear where you'll prefer not to bet (inside straight draws, rainbow with three-to-a-straight plus three-to-a-flush, perhaps middle pair with ace showing...). also, they are quite unlikely to make it three to see.
I did sort of have that out-on-a-limb feeling about the hand. This was one of those AC 5-10 games you mention in your post below, Dave. I probably won't be making this type of raise often. With this table, I figured it wasn't too far out of line, but it never hurts to get a third party opinion. Thanks, guys!
A raise with QTc is OK for deception purposes only, but I wouldn't make it a habit. Buying the button in a loose/passive game does almost nothing for you except to allow you to buy a pot every once in a while. QTs needs players IN the pot, not OUT. You made a poor play and got lucky on the flop. Thank the poker gods and vow to never do it again(well...almost never :-)~ ).
spanQy
Two JJ hands:
Hand 1) Low limit, in the cutoff with Js Jd. One early limper, I raise, BB & limper call. We take the flop 3 ways.
Flop is 246 all spades.
Checked to me, I bet, both call.
Turn is Kc, checked to me, I check.
River is 9s. BB bets, EP folds, I call.
Hand 2) Low limit, middle position, Jc Js. Folded to me, I raise, SB calls. We take the flop heads up.
Flop is KQT two diamonds. SB bets, I raise, SB calls.
Turn is 6, no flush, SB checks, I take the free card.
River 5, no flush. SB bets, I fold.
All comments welcome. Results to follow. (I don't want opinions based on results).
Hand 1: BB had AsTh for the Ace high flush. Hand 2: SB showed me his hand - 72o.
Ick. Yeah. I still don't think you should bet the turn, typically -- though against this guy, yes. I would look for thin value bets against this guy also, because having done that to you, he's more likely to call you down with weak hands to not have the favour returned -- people who give this are a lot more wary of getting it back.
On this hand, if the player is one that likes to jam any draw, then they often think I'll do the same -- once they see I've missed (so they think), they'll think they can steal with anything, so I typically have to call such a player down (maybe this guy is like that) -- even with K high.
The thing about that hand that would bother me most (you're getting what, 4-1 to call?) is not how much it cost me in EV (I doubt it's a major error EV wise, and even if it were big, say as much as 2 BB not to call here against this guy, you'll be able to get it back against him), it's that he's identified me as someone to take a shot at.
Calling the flop, betting out, and calling the flop raise -- these are all as significant or more so than the river bluff. And it's not just him, it's the whole table. Sometimes, it's a good idea to get up and reconstruct your image another day, even if you feel fresh and the opposition looks weak...
I didn't peek. I think you played them both fine. I like checking the turn in #1. I'd call in #2 against some, fold against others.
Bet the turn on the first hand n/t
Hand 1) I'm going to assume you lost this pot to As or Qs. You should have bet the turn. I'd be more scared of another spade than an overcard. Since you raised the flop, they've got to put you(well, this is low-limit, so maybe not...) on spades or an overpair. I'd go ahead and bet the turn, and see what happens. On the river, I'd call if I were last to act, but I would not overcall.
Hand 2) Again, bet the turn. He could be betting out on the flop with anything, and especially the diamond draw with one of the straight cards(although he'd probably re-raise with that). I'd put him on a pair of Qs or 10s. You re-raised him on the flop, why not try to buy it there? By checking the turn you showed weakness and allowed him to buy the pot with a possible busted draw.
K. I'll go look at the results now.
spanQy
I haven't peeked at the results (yet)
I like the way you played the first hand.
I would've called the river on the second hand. When you raise the flop and check the turn, you're begging him to bet the river into your busted draw. The small blind would bet any hand here. There are 5.5 big bets in the pot on the river. I think you have the best hand more than 15% of the time here, so I would call.
Posted by: Mark Upman
Posted on: Friday, 13 July 2001, at 2:33 p.m.
I have pocket jacks on the button. #5 and 7 call, I raise, SB reraises, 5 & 7 call, I cap, all call. SB is prone to overplay AK, 5 & 7 are both loose passive. Flop: Q 3 3. all check, I bet. SB calls seat 5 calls. Turn 10, both check I bet SB calls, seat 5 folds. River: brick, SB checks, I check. SB shows AK and comments that my hand is too beatable to raise like that. I said thank you for advice. Other comments?
Can he have possibly have the Q? Could he fear you with AA,KK and not bet AQ throughout the hand? Sounds like he really feared AA or KK, yet he continued to draw with AK. This might be someone you can bet for value on the river. Just because he overplays AK doesn't make your cap all that good -- he needs to also 3-bet some weaker-suited aces and bigger mid pocket-pairs too. AK/AQ are such slight dogs, if that's all he over-values against you before the flop, then I like his hand.
Nice of him to give you lessons. Your response is very good. I typically say, "I lost my head there, it's my favourite hand" or "I usually only do that with pocket sixes. Heh, they woulda been good that hand too!"
One question, if I don't cap it pre-flop, then he certainly bets out when the queen hits the board at which point I am not sure how to play out the hand. I tend to prefer to take control of these hands, but I am definately open to different views. I have been trapped by KK in this situation before.
That's a good question, and I don't have a good answer. 4-way, a bet and 2 calls between you on a Q-high flop, you'd might end up folding the best hand; though if only 1 or no limpers called, you could probably take charge. But turning your question around, is it possible that he'd have played AQ the exact same giving your cap fearing KK/AA (he might've before this hand, anyway :)) -- and you'd have bet his hand for him?
The fact that a 3-bet-er will almost always bet the flop (unless you cap) isn't a bad thing. You can be happy to call even if you have an overpair -- you don't *need* to raise.
The reason I don't typically like the cap is that if you look at the range of hands he 3-bets, and its say JJ-AA, and AKo, AQs -- overall you are a big dog with what you hold. You're way behind to most and slightly ahead of the rest -- and they all have a draw -- and he's going on that draw! Now, if he 3-bets with 77+ and all suited As and a couple more on the other hand you're in much better shape EV wise against this guy when you cap.
The fact that you have position here helps alot. And I like taking it to someone and capping with other than premium hands when you have position against a loose 3-better. But 4-way, against a 3-bet from the blinds -- I doubt you're taking the best of that there except against a pretty loose 3-better (which this guy may be, I dunnoe) -- if it's only AK that you're ahead of in the range of hands he 3-bets, you're really taking the worst of it.
<<...SB shows AK and comments that my hand is too beatable to raise like that. I said thank you for advice.>>
After I show down a winner and a RUDE player begins to criticize my play, I usually ask them to "wait a minute while I stack *your* chips...so I can fully concentrate on your advice as to why my play was wrong... :-)
Jeff Cooper St. Louis, MO
Bet the river -- you think he's going to wait until the end of the hand to check-raise with AQ/KK? Don't take the idea of them only paying with better hands too far. There's value in persuading them to dump overcards on the turn or in making them pay off on the end (which they'll eventually do if you've "run over" them a few times).
I agree, and it has to do with the cap on the flop. If the cap on the flop is correct, then he needs to have a bunch of hands that will pay you (underpairs to the queen) and some others that occasionally will pay you off (A-highs) -- so you should bet the river.
On the other hand, if the cap on the flop was incorrect, then checking it down is probably right.
He's right. I think a cap at this point is wrong. You've got a re-raiser from the small blind, which screams big hand(although he's probably trying to get some dead money in the pot and heads up against you). Then you get 2 people calling the double-raise. Capping at this point does nothing for you. You've got to know that overcards are out there, and there's a very large chance that overcards are going to flop(something like 60+%). You can't feel every comfortable about any overcard flopping. I think you got lucky in this situation. Jacks are one of those hands that either needs to be head-up or with multiple opponents(and you'll probably need to flop a set here). You'll lose a lot of money pushing jacks this way.
spanQy
I wouldn't cap with 3 other players in the hand. You are close to needing to flop a set, and even if you flop an over pair, the pot is so big that the loose passive players are correct to chase with overcards. Would you have folded if an Ace or King fell on the turn or river and you were bet into?
Thanks guys. Unwarranted aggression here. No, I don't think I would have folded at the river because his flop and turn call led me to think he might have tens. It was indecision about his hand that caused the check at the end. I had considered AQ fearing KK or AA. I slowed down as I thought about the number of hands that I could beat vs the number I could not. The best lesson here is: don't fall in love with jacks. By the way, he does have a wide range of 3-betting hands.
I'll let ya know if I run into any interesting hands in the Big Easy. Luck.
Interesting hand this past wednesday.
Ten handed 1-4-8-8 game, I'm in mid position with AKo. One caller to me, I raise. The cutoff, the small blind and the big blind call.
Flop: Kh 9c 4d
Small blind (real tight player, you know the "I just saw Rounders and decided to read some books so I play in a very unimaginitive, rigid style") checks, big blind checks, I bet out. Cutoff calls, Small blind check-raises, Big blind folds, I call, cutoff folds. Heads up with SB.
Turn: 10s
SB bets, I call.
River: Ah
SB bets out, I raise. He stops, goes to raise, goes to call, begins to fold, vacillates between the three, then mucks.
My friend Harold and I think he had AK. Any Comments? On my play in general?
i put him on pocket kings.....
index
He didnt go three preflop - no that unusual. Players like to limp AA and KK, then smash you on the flop.
He prolly had (KQ or KJ).
I think laying down a set of kings in that situation, for this "I just saw Rounders and decided to read some books so I play in a very unimaginitive, rigid style" player is unlikely.
Again he had KQ (or KJ).
It didn't occure to anybody that he could have K9 or K4s? Both of those are worth comming in for a raise in the small blind.
If this Kid has just read any decent Poker book he wouldnt call K9 or K4s to a preflop raise, (What raising hands is he beating?)!
I'm not sure that's really the point of why you would call with a hand like K9o in the small blind. One, it would be a shame to have somebody think you're a pushover in the blind. Second, even if you might be beat now, if you play the hand well enough, you can avoid getting yourself trapped by a dominating hand.
-MD
Would he muck KTs in small blind pre-flop? I don't think that hand is too unlikely. Weird situation though. Usually, when pondering a legitimate re-raise (after all, that's what everyone here is trying to put him on), you don't turn completely around to folding.
lars
3-6 at the Mirage and I am heads up with a local. I have 10c-9s and the flop comes 3 clubs, the local checks and I bet, he calls, the turn is a spade, he checks, i bet and he calls. River is a spade and he checks, so i bet hoping that he will fold but he calls. Now i figure i am beat, so i say that i have nothing, while tossing my two black cards face up toward the flop, so that he can see them. Mean while a player two seats way says something that i did not catch at first but he called my hand as a flush when he saw the two black card. Local mucked his cards when he heard this and then went off on me when he realize that i had run a bluff, saying that he had a pair of 8s. I got the pot but did i owe this player anything and should the dealer have gone after his cards in the muck. I think that if i had called a flush and did not have it, i would have given him the pot.
I say take it down and let him steam. He's a hardened local right? If he can't read the cards for himself thats his problem.
Ward,
You don't owe him anything. Part of playing poker is reading hands at the showdown. If indeed he had a pair of eights, then he made a mistake just like the hundreds of other mistakes we all make over time that cost us the pot or money in general. Are you suppose to make it up to him every time he screws up?
Keith C.
(nt)
Thanks for the responses. I am sure if the shoe was on the other foot the local would have taken my money an ran. I just feel that i can play and win without any angle shots at the other players. Thanks again.
I would not respond to the steaming player, but I would say something to the dealer suggesting that he or she should speak to the player who spoke up incorrectly reading your hand. This accomplishes two things: 1) sends the message to all players about minding their own business and 2) makes the local feel as though you were not trying to win the pot dishonestly, thereby bringing harmony back to the table.
Howdy,
I am a learning low limit holdem player.
I am dealt AK hearts UTG. I raise. I am called by the player on my immediate left. The small blind and big blind call, we see the flop 4 handed 4BB in the pot. The small blind is decent if unimaginative player, the others are unknown to me. The flop comes Qs9cAc.
It is checked to me, I bet and get 3 calls. 6BB in the pot. The turn is the 9h.
It is checked to me, I bet, the small blind folds, the other two call. 9BB. The river is the 8h.
The big blind checks to me, I check....
Should I have bet here for value? My thinking is that I worry about someone making the straight or slowplaying trips. I don't want to walk into a check raise. If players were on a flush draw, they wont call anyway.
The result is that the two players held QTo(BB), and A3spades(Player to my left). If they called the turn bet, wont they almost certainly call the river bet? Thus in this case I think a value bet is correct, and I make a mental note to bet for value against these two when I get the opportunity. But should I be regularly making this bet?
Thanks for you opinions.
Wayne
Here is my thinking on value bets. You have to make this bet. Here are some reasons why.
1) Yes, your opponent could have flush draws. But if they do and they fold, who cares? You had them beat either way.
2) But...your opponents could have something like say, QTo or A3s. You beat a LOT of hands that your opponents could have, and you need to charge the maximum for holding onto the lesser hands all the way to the river.
3) Opponents don't check-raise the river much at all in LL games. Check-raising the river is a sophisicated play.
4) Your opponents would have raised on the turn if they had a nine.
5) Let's say somebody does check-raise you. Now, I already mentioned that a check-raise is sophisticated and very rare in LL games. A check-raise bluff is downright ludicrously unheard of...so if you do get check-raised, you just toss away your hand because you KNOW your opponent must have you beat.
So, yes I would bet value here. In the long run, you must get those extra BBs to be a winner.
Mojay
If you start tossing you hand away to check-raises on the river routinely, good players will take notice...
lars
Just got back from Harrah's in New Orleans. From what I could tell at my table and others, pretty loose/passive with lots of calling stations. About 50% of the time there was pre-flop raising. Now the bad news......
I sat at a 4-8 table for 5 hours and saw 4 flops. Yes, 4 flops. Of the 4 flops, I went to the showdown 3 times. Of the 3 showdowns, I got beat on the river all 3 times.
AKo, my opponent called every one of my bets. I flopped another set of AKo plus a blank. The turn was a blank. The river was a Q, he had pocket queens for trips.
JJ, my opponent called every one of my bets. Flop came J-10-3. Turn AND river was A. Guess what he had.
I'm the BB with 8c-9d and limp in. Flop comes Jh-10h-7s. UNBELIEVABLE! Again, opponent called every one of my bets. Turn is a blank. River is 2h. He busts my straight with 5h-3h!
All in all, a VERY frustrating day. I left way earlier than I had planned, digusted and down $220. I hope I got the crap of my system before I go to Vegas in August.
I think what goes through their minds is "Well, he's only played 3 hands in the last 5 hours, now he opened for a raise. He's GOT to be bluffing." Hope you get another shot at them with a better run of cards.
I don't think these guys even noticed when I raised. They were just playing "no fold em hold em" and seeing the flop no matter what the cost. Once the flop gave them a glimmer of hope, they stayed to the river.
Small correction. I did see a few more flops when I was BB and had a MONSTER hand like 7-2o and optioned to the flop. Or SB with K-6o and put up the extra buck just to see the flop. (sigh)
It happens to everyone, dont worry too much.
I once sat for 8 hours at LL 7cs and NEVER got past 4th street, Then 6 hours of 6-12HE few months back played MAYBE 6 hands and never won a single one.. never flopped a thing on top of that..
Though if you look at it positively you have taken a session and had your statistical # of bad hands/suckouts, should be due for a MONSTER night..
Always a plus side, best of luck and stay patient, its a lifelong game..
-Ray
You are only down $220 after that bad luck? Glad you weren't at a $10-$20 table :)
I am debating setting up an account with an internet cardroom and would like some advice:
Is there a consensus favorite site among contributors here?
Are there any cardrooms out there to avoid? (Reasons could include a slow server, lousy customer service, confusing game sceen, etc.)
I'd greatly appreciate anyone's comments on the subject.
Thanks.
I forgot to add in my original post that it would be helpful to know if anyone has done some comparison shopping with regards to the house rake at various sites.
.
I have tried five different sites. Paradise, poker pages (for tournaments), Highlands, True poker and now I play on planet. Paradise has tournaments and most of the action on the internet. Play is very fast and there are some other benefits as well. You can even play two games at once. What I don't like, is that I personally know at least nine players in my own city who play together via telephone or ICQ. I believe that you are at risk of collusion because there is so much action on the site making it harder for paradise to police. Highlands was ok, the graphics are a little hokey and I heard that it was hacked into once upon a time. They have very little action so it is hard to find a game most of the time. So far I don't mind Planet. Again, hokey graphics but the play appears to be more honest, and less aggressive. They have been having some server problems lately but are trying to work it out. Planet is also endorsed and managed by Roy Cooke (card player) and Mike Caro. To this point, I am reasonably happy with the system.
I hope this helps.
Larry
loosey-goosey 3-6 in So. Cal. I'm dealt AcKd in the big blind and after 5 or 6 limp including the small blind, I raise and all call. flop comes A(d)AKrainbow.
a) would you check or bet here after the small blind checked? if you check and an early position player bet with 2 or 3 callers, would you raise or just call?
turn: Qd
b) if you led-bet on the flop and got 4 callers, what would be your approach now?
river: 4h
c) if you bet the turn and got 2 callers, would you check or bet at this point?
on the flop, I had to think extra-quickly because I was basically first to act. I chose to bet. no way did I want this to be checked around (a distinct possibility if no one else held the case ace) and I wanted to charge the 3-flushes and inside straight draws. if someone pounced with a raise, I would've called and probably yielded the floor (jungle?) until the river.
sure enough, there were 4 callers. when the Qd arrived, I checked, the player to my right bet, there was one call, and I then raised to doublecharge a made straight or any remaining drawing hands. the player to my left called and the other fellow folded (announcing that he had held a king).
on the river, I bet and the lone opposition called, showing QQ.
I don't like the pre-flop raise. AKo is certainly not a big money maker in a family field of limpers like this. Raising it for thin value pre-flop only does more damage to the hand, giving opponents odds to draw to anything post-flop, five outers to trips or two pair, four outers to gutshots and even runner-runner flushes.
What more it does, is expose your hand when it hits big-time (like this one). I can't imagne the action you'd get from QQ on the turn if you had just checked this one pre-flop (the only hands beating QQ on the turn being AA, KK, AK and AQ with the case Queen). I'd certainly get great action from such a situation in my regular game, no doubt.
lars
of course I could not have suspected a high pair like QQ lurked somewhere! if QQ had raised preflop (normal move), I would have just called and let this player take the lead (hoping he held AQ or KK). and this rather timid player might have checked when faced with a AAK flop anyway. after all, his QQ was very weak until the turn.
as for raising in general with AKoffsuit preflop, low-limit players are going to chase their inside straight, 5-outers, and runner-runners whether I've raised preflop or not. so I'm going to win about the same percentage of these hands either way.
I admit your argument is strongest when referring specifically to raises from the big blind. from other positions, there is the added benefit (aside from augmenting the pot) of squelching potential winners before they get a chance to chase.
in this particular hand, I did what I could to disguise my strength while still building the pot.
I usually hate being a 'calling station' in poker, but here's a hand in which I felt I had little choice.
Six-handed $3/6 homegame. Usually aggressive with routinely pre-flop raising on strong hands and few 'family pots'. A couple of loose players, though, but both usually aggressive too. I pick up 9h9c in big blind. Both these players limp in, in mid-position and button respectively. Their typical hands here will be a bad ace (often suited - sometimes raised), suited mid-connectors (sometimes raised), just connectors (sometimes folded)and baby pairs (sometimes raised). Strong small blind limps in for half the small bet, could have pretty much anything half-decent. Four-way, I see no other option than to check my nines (?). I think the border goes here for me, I'd definitely raise Tens in this spot for value.
Flop: Jd-7c-5c. Checked to button, who bets. Small blind folds, and I also presume mid-position player will fold, as he will bet out anything decent on the flop with just one player behind left to act. So it's pretty much up to me and button. I call.
Turn card: 4d. I check, button bets. Now, button usually won't bet in this spot against me without a real hand, but hey, usually we find ourselves heads-up at this stage having left two or three bets behind us each pre-flop and that's an entirely different situation. He has no reason to fear my hand here, and knows I'd probably bet or check-raise any jack on that flop. I call the turn too.
The river pairs the Sevens, but no more diamonds or clubs. I check and really dislike my spot here if button bets again...but, button checks too!
I show my Nines, and the button for some reason decides to flash a nine of his own, the spade one.
So I took down this little pot, but am not feeling comfortable at all by being a calling station...
Any comments or advice on how I may could've played the hand differently?
lars
you might have tried a semibluff-raise somewhere in there. hemay have thrown his hand away to you, and you could feel good about actually being agressive and winning without a showdown. calling this guy down is not bad, though. especially if you know he is able to push his hands very hard with very little, and the cheapest way to head this guy off is the check-call. he's going to bet the whole way, you have a hand that may be the best, but don't want to invest a lot in case he accidentally has a monster. so check-call is ok here, seeing as you got to the river and knew before you showed your nines that they were good! sometimes you have to commit to calling somebody down when you know that you are possibly beat, but they may just be pushing an edge they think they have.
“Four-way, I see no other option than to check my nines (?).”
Seems fine to me.
“Flop: Jd-7c-5c. Checked to button, who bets. Small blind folds, and I also presume mid-position player will fold, as he will bet out anything decent on the flop with just one player behind left to act.”
Your stated preflop raising requirements for this player leads me to strongly believe that you are ahead. Any pocket pair that beats yours would have been raised, and any big jack would also be raised. The only thing that you trail right now is likely a weak suited jack. Far more likely is that Loose Aggressive player sees a raggedy flop, a small pot and few players and is making a bet at the pot to try and win it right there. Without a doubt, I raise once the small blind folds. If he DOES have a big jack, he will let you know, and if he has a weak jack, now the pressure is on HIM to fold the better hand.
The checkraise here is a very strong play which enables you to either 1. Take it down right there if he is making a play for the pot, or 2. Put pressure on him to fold a weak jack.
“Now, button usually won't bet in this spot against me without a real hand”
All the more reason to raise. If he calls your raise here and your lead bet on the turn, you can safely fold to a river bet for 1 SB less than it would have cost you to call him down
Clark
10 handed, seat 8, seat 2 is the button, middle position with Q,J... UTG folds... everyone else sees the flop:
9d 9h Tc
it's checked to me, i bet out with and open ended straight draw, player to my left calls, and after him a raise, then another, it's called around, one folds, and I cap it(?).
5 players, Turn: 5h
it's checked to me, i bet. Three seats after player raises... everyone calls, i re-raise, everyone calls
5 player, River: 8 (my money card, ha )
the betting is capped, two seats after me player turns over a 7c,6h for a stright six to ten... i happily turn over my Q,J for a stright eight to queen... then player to my left turns over 10,9 for a full house, nines full of tens.
Does this just happen? Or did i make some serious errors with a pair on the board?
thanks for any help.
index
I think you were pushing pretty hard before you made your hand. You want to draw as cheaply as possible unless you think that by betting you have some chance of winning the pot without making your hand. When it get's capped on the flop you have to put someone on a 9. When it heats up on the river you have to assume someone filled up.
I think you played your hand too fast.
With this kind of coordinated flop, there is a good chance that someone could have flopped a full house. You have to put in the minimum. The cap was clearly wrong on the flop. The bet and reraise on the turn were insane. On the river, you lose to 8-9 or 9-10, both of which are likely holdings for at least one of your opponents.
I might have folded with serious action; you were crazy for creating that action yourself.
(nt)
Typical 3-6 game. I'm on the button with Qd Jc. 1 early poster. 3 limpers (plus the poster), I limp, SB calls, BB checks, we take the flop 7 ways.
Flop is 9d Ts 6s. Blinds check, UTG bets, 3 limpers call, I raise (to try for a free card), blinds fold and bettor and 3 limpers call.
Turn is 2s (notice 3 spades now). Everyone checks to me, I take the free card.
River is Kc. First guy folds, next two check, guy to my right bets.
Make a case for raising vs. calling. I have my own reasons, which I will leave out, except to say I decided that calling was better. I'd like to know what others think.
Easy call. If you raise, the only way someone will cold call behind you is if you are beat or tied. Even the initial better might not call if he only has one pair. If someone has a flush, you could be reraised and have to pay it off.
On the other hand, by calling, you could get calls from three players behind you. Calling makes more money in this situation.
Easy call. Two people behind you to act and if you raise they are more than likely going to fold unless they have a flush. Plus the original caller might fold thinking you made a flush which is not what you want if he's on a pair. So if one of the people behind you to act call than you have made your raise money without any risk.
SS
I usually call and hope for the over call. When you are best it will usually earn the same, and when you are not best, you'll lose less. Also, you won't scare away customers when you are splitting the pot with the bettor.
The case to raise is contingent upon: 1) sensing it unlikely to get a single overcall, 2) knowing your opponent will bet the turn with a made flush, 3) knowing your opponent will bet the river with a marginal hand and then pay you off to 'keep you honest' 4) wanting to give the bettor an enema because he likes to bet into me with crap (and then will pay off the river).
Rarely do I have such a good read and strong agenda, but it happens...
I bet the turn against people who'd you'd expect to bet the turn with a flush, and who are likely to give me the flush and bail with a weak pair. Everybody can see the 3-flush, so somebody who has it will likely bet unless he can depend on you for a bet.
I thought about betting turn to represent the flush, but I figured that with 4 opponents I would have to show the best hand to win. By taking the free card if I miss the river I can get away from the hand very cheap. Maybe if there were two opponents I would take a shot on the turn.
You played the hand like you were on a draw, bet the turn like you made it. If there are callers you still have outs to your straight. Nothing says that you have to bet the river whether you make your hand or not. That is a different assessment you would have to make. By not betting the turn, you have invited a shot at you from possible nothings. Just like what happened. Had you missed the straight, you would not have been able to call the river but even having made the str8 with the flush on board, you are likely not going to get paid off anyway. I would take a shot at the turn.
Larry
Typical loose passive game. I'm UTG w/ AcKc. I raise, get two mid-position (neither of which are very solid players) and the BB (loose blind) come along. (4 players 8 SB)
Flop- Ah 10h 9d
BB checks I bet all but BB call. (3 players 11 SB)
Turn- Kd (Ah 10h 9d Kd)
I bet out again and both call. (3 players 8.5 BB)
River- 9h (Ah 10h 9d Kd)
I check and it gets checked around. I turn over my hand and it holds up someone else had K,10 and didnt see other persons cards. My question is whether or not I should have bet the river? That was kinda a scary card for me bringing possible trips that in LL isnt unlikely that someone hung around w/ bottom pair plus it brought the flush. Was I correct to check the river?
If your intention was to call, I think checking was your best option here, dependent of course on your read of the players. Seeing as how they had only called, and with two opponents, flush is very possible. I might be a little less worried about three nines, since that would have meant calling a raise and then a bet on each round (though you admit it's possible in LL). I don't think there is any way you can fold for one big bet, but check-call is not a bad strategy here IMO.
Fallon
With two opponents staying with you all the way to the end from a set of three who took the flop, I like your river check. Since you were not raised on the turn, I would rule out anyone having a straight. It is too easy for someone to be on a flush-draw from the start and to have made their flush when the river card arrives. I would check and call if anyone bets.
The guy with king-ten cold-calls your utg preflop raise, calls your flop bet with middle pair on an ace-high flop, and then catches one of the best cards he could hope for on the turn but cannot raise when you bet. This underscores the weakness of his cold-call preflop.
Table is 5-10. 1,2,3 (that's me), and 4 seats are decent players (nothing spectacular) 5-10 are generally fish with one player super-drunk (SDP)--he's re-raising with 27s and calling pots to the river with Q2 with a pair of twos. He's also been betting everything. Another guy, the last to act (LTA) in this hand has been playing a lot of hands, and winning a good amount with non-premium holdings.
There are four limpers to me, all on the other side of the table. Cutoff and button fold, I raise, BB fold...three callers (EP limper folds). The flop comes J94. I am very happy with my trips. Several times when I was the preflop aggressor in EP, everyone has folded to my bet. I didn't want that to happen again, so I checked. The SDP has been betting out anyway, so I figured I was good. He checks behind me, and it checks around. Oops.
Turn is a Q (4 suits). I bet out my trips. SDP calls, other player folds, last to act raises. I reraise. SDP folds. LTA reraises (normally a cap, but it is now unlimited since it is heads-up). I just called, figuring I was beat by a straight.
River is a 2. I check. He bets. I call. He has queens and nines, and I rake a monster. Should I have assumed he had me beat? Another player said I should have raised on the river, but I thought I made the right play. I was worried since I gave a free card. Had the board paired low, I would have raised, not expecting him to turn over a set of queens. He was not a tricky player, and I respected his raises. Any comments are appreciated.
C
I bet the flop mostly and slow down quicker than you did on the turn.
I think you played it fine and dragged a nice pot. You check the flop from up front to see the action and try to see how to maximize your profit. On the turn/river, the other guy loves his hand, and is going to bet, but he's probably done raising if he's worse and you play it soft with a potential straight out there.
Your flop play is worth thinking about -- do you think the table immediately thought it fishy that you raise the flop from the blinds and then check the flop? Will they open/raise the flop after that preflop action with a wide range of hands? Do they tend to look to you when you've raised preflop? Will they take one off on the flop with nearly anything? If so (and it typically is for me), then I will bet the flop and get a lot of crap to give me a SB.
The flop getting checked around is not a disaster, however because it can mean that there isn't a single decent draw out there when you play with folks who'll bet any draw or when late position players will bet any pair and sometimes take a stab with nothing. Also, people having seen that you'll check a monster on the flop may give your AK/AQ some cover when you raise them from the blinds, miss, and want a cheap turn.
if LTA had held QQ, I can't imagine him checking the flop. but his reraise on the turn cried "I figure you were slowplaying your trips and I'm ahead." moreover, he should have bet his Q9 on the flop. so your deduction was justified.
I do take issue with your check on the flop. there were no flush draws and 3 of the 4 jacks (high card on the flop) were accounted for. who, therefore, was likely to bet? no sense in giving all those potential straight draws (KQ, KT, QT, Q8, T8, 87) a free ride.
Think of it from his perspective. By raising from the small blind against four limpers, he probably puts you on AA-JJ or AK.
He probably thinks that you would slowplay then 3 bet the turn with AA-JJ, and since there is a Q and a J out there there are 12 ways he's ahead and only six ways he's behind. That's why he would reraise the turn. When you just call, he probably figures you for AA or KK, so he still bets the river.
Since you raised from SB, most decent players will expect that you have a big pair or maybe AK. Most players who raise from SB bet out no matter what. I like betting and hope they feel you have AK. Now checking is not terrible since it is rainbow but unfortunately for you it was checked around plus the turn card gave a possible straight.
I think I would have played it similar to you on the turn and river.
Personally with JJ I wouldn't raise from the SB facing 4 callers. Since it is likely an overcard will fall, why not see the flop cheap and if the flop is low you have a wonderful hand with the strength hidden.
Ken Poklitar
$5-$10 game. I'm in the middle with KK. 3 weak players limp to me. I raise and see the flop with those 3.
The flop is Q88. It is checked to me, I bet, all call. Turn is another 8. Checked to me again, I bet, two folds, guy to my right raises me. Do I have to pay him off? He is a pretty weak player and not overly tricky. Can I muck or am I too big?
I paid him off and he showed me (groan) QQ. To make matters worse, since I was sure I was paying off the case 8, for a brief second I thought my 8's full of kings would beat him... (This guy also waited to the river to raise AA unimproved against 4 players, with a scary board. He SLOWWWWWW played everything while I was there and went up maybe $500 in a few hours.).
Another hand (same game):
I have Ks Qs late. 3 limpers, I limp, SB folds. We take the flop 5 ways.
Flop is Kd 5s 2s.
Checked to me, I bet, only the BB calls.
Turn is 8c.
BB checks, I bet.
River is 4h.
BB bets.
Do I have to pay him off? How often will a typical player bet out here with less than 2 pair?
I paid him off. He showed me A3. I guess I am glad I am playing with this guy.
I am starting to think that deciding whether to pay off a bet on the river can make the difference between winning and losing overall. So many times I have top pair (nice kicker), bet it the whole way, then some Magoo decides to bet out on the river. I never know if I should pay this off. (Or someone who has been calling decides to raise, or I get check-raised.) I hate top pair on the river.
Ok, I'm no poker expert! With that warning aside.
1st hand: Yes i think you have to pay him off. With the board Q888, i would put him on Qx, or AK. Bad break but imagine if you had caught the K last :) I know only two outs, but a man can dream :)
2nd hand: Absolutely, don't the result of his draw frustrate you in your decisions. The only thing I might have done is raised the pre-flop in late position and check raised post-flop. This guy prolly wouldn't have folded (sounds like an any A kinda player) but in the long roll you are going to be nailing him for bets while he plays any ace and you out kick him or he waits around for the inside straight and never catches it. However, this bad player may be easy to read over time, you may know to release almost any hand against him when he bets because he is only betting the nuts. But of course, that depends on who he is :)
I gotta ask this though, what suit was the A3? if it was A3s, then its not a bad play!
1st hand - I put him on the 8, which gave me 0 outs. Even if the K hit I still would have called him down.
2nd hand - He had no flush draw. I didn't think he had the straight though, I figured he had Kx and hit his kicker.
Hand 2. Call. Don't save a bet getting 6-1 with a cheesey board. Against the opponents where this is most clearly a mistake it is still a small one. He hit a five or six outer. Some players (they don't have to be terribly tricky) may put you on the flush draw, and hang around only to bet the river when it doesn't come, or decide that since they call they may as well bet.
Hand 1. I'd usually bet the turn, but you (and me) don't need to. If you're ahead, you're not very vulnerable. There's probably not much to collect from draw wise so you don't typically lose a bunch of bets when you check. If you're behind, well, you might be drawing dead.
Folding/Calling the turn check-raise depends on the player, if you don't have a very good read (sounds like you didn't get one until later in the evening), then call. There are many low limit players who'd never bet the flop with an 8 -- in fact, they'd always put the flop better on something other than the 8 -- but even they would be tempted to check-call with the Q rather than try to knock you off it.
You basically need to find the players who would C/R because they like the Q or in order to run you over (they'll be rarer than players with an 8 (or QQ!) -- and call them down -- ie, this is a hand where you can save bets with a fold against slow-players and alternatively induce bluffs (with a turn check) against tricky/aggressive types.
I would pay of on both hands. Without the 3rd 8 turning on hand #1 the case for folding is stronger IMO. If it had been heads up on the turn I'd might check the kings. If you're ahead your opponent only has a few outs to improve (at most 5 outs with AQ, more likely 2 or 3 outs) and you might be being setup for a checkraise with a set. If you're behind you desperately need the freecard. With 4 opponents I would bet to try to muscle out JT, T9 and pocket pairs.
I agree with you though, I hate beeing bet into on the river with only top pair. On the other hand, I love beeing checked into with my toppair-great kicker.
Sincerly, Andreas
actually i am not too concerned about things like that. unfortunately, sometimes they come in bunches within a few minutes, but actually these are they players who make poker profitable. The only thing you can do is playing you hands more agressively, because he will not get there a lot more times than he will
Here is a 3-6 paradise hand I played where I was raising with my draw more than I usually do.
I posted in the cutoff and was dealt Ah3h.
two limpers and a raise to me, I call hoping there won't be a reraise because I already had one SB in. Fortunately, the button folded but the both blinds folded also (I wanted more money in the pot for implied odds on a flush / straight draw). Would anyone fold here pre-flop?
anyway, a great flop comes for me.
Jc5h4h
giving me the nut flush draw and a gutshot straight draw.
It's checked to preflop raiser who bets. I call in last position not wanting to scare out potential callers. UTG now check raises. Other limper folds and original bettor calls. I now am about to call the bet but then think about raising to a) get more money in the pot and b) to maybe get a free card if I need it. Even if UTG caps it, I'm pretty sure the original player will call since he's gone this far. I raised. UTG capped, all called. What do you think of this raise? Is it good or bad? I had 12 outs with two cards to come although UTG probably has at least 2-pair and could redraw against me.
Anyway, turn comes a beautiful 9h. It gets checked to me, I bet, both players call. River is 8h checked to me. I bet and UTG folds, original bettor calls with TTh and I win.
Thanks for all comments / flames,
Jeff Gomberg
I call before the flop, and I'd have raised if it were unraised to you. Losing both the SB and BB was a shame, but likely rare.
I tend to raise the flop, but you have a valid point about losing people to subsidize your draw. I'm not too concerned about folding someone because it might clean up my ace (3 more outs) -- and if they do call, that's good too. 3-betting the flop is good.
You probably won the max here with how you played it -- love to know what UTG had.
That's a good point I hadn't considered about the extra Ace outs. I'm guessing UTG had either JJ (no raise preflop, though, also no heart). Possibly AJo. After looking through all the hands I've seen this player play, he has always showed down good hands (AA,KK,JJ,A8s) although he lost money on the KK when calling on the end vs. obvious straight. Thanks for comments so far,
Jeff Gomberg
Jeff
I love the way you played it, but you would have been better off with more players in the hand than just you and two others. You had nine outs to the nuts, a great draw, plus the possibility that an ace might also be good (but I wouldn't necessarily count on it, so I wouldn't think of it as having 12 outs). You were sucking equity out of the "best hand", especially if the other caller was playing a weak draw. When I am in this situation, I will sometimes just call the first bet, to keep people in and increase my value on my draw. However, if I get a chance to check-raise or limp-reraise in such a position that the callers are paying off the additional bets in the "installment plan", I certainly will. Having the nut draw makes this a better play, but sometimes I will even do it with a non-nut draw (depends on circumstances). With many players in the hand, you WANT it to get capped. Every extra buck going in is making you money. The player with the best hand isn't "charging" you to draw, you are "charging" the players with weak draws to continue, at the expense of the player with top pair, an overpair, or whatever. It was a great play, but I would generally reserve it for pots with more players. However, you were still getting the best of it, just not by as much as if you had more players.
My question is what the heck was the player with TTh doing in the pot after the flop? I think the answer is "making you money".
Dave in Cali
Typical loose game with not too aggression. I limp into the pot in the cutoff with 5h4h after almost everyone calls to me. Neither the blinds or the button are excessively aggressive, so a raise is unlikely, and it will probably be almost a family pot. Eight see the flop for no raise.
Flop comes 2h 8h Js. SB bets and four call to me, I raise, both for value and for a possible free card. SB calls, as do the rest, 6 players. One thing going through my mind: In this situation, with this many callers, it is possible that a better flush draw is against me. This could be very unfortunate for me if another heart actually shows up.
The turn is the 9h, giving me the flush. SB checks and everyone checks to the guy two to my right, who comes to life and comes out betting. The next player calls and the action is to me. Here's the question: do I raise?
In my opinion, the answer is absolutely yes. Are there alarms going off in my head, saying "Danger Will Robinson! Danger!" ??? Yes, of course. But here's the thing. If I don't raise, I am giving someone with something like the Qh or Th get a cheap chance to beat me, but they might fold if I raise, and I DO want them to fold. Obviously no one with the Ah is going to fold, even for two bets cold, so they might as well pay to try and beat me. Since I have two of their outs in my hand, they can't have any more than seven cards in the deck that would help them, but they will surely call, so this makes raising even more important. Anyone with the Kh may also cold call two, which is all the more reason to raise. If you want to draw to beat me, you are going to have to pay. On the down side, the bettor seemed to come to life when the third heart hit, so it is entirely possible that he also has a flush. If he has a flush, there is no card in the deck that can help me, I am totally dead as there is no way to have a smaller flush than I do at this point in the hand. If I get reraised on the turn, I am going to have a difficult time calling the raise, as few will reraise without the ace high flush here (though a few would, against certain opponents I would be forced to call them down, barring another heart on the river). Also, it's possible that someone with the nut flush might just call the turn raise and try to check-raise the river (which would give me that "sinking sensation"). So if I just get called, and no heart comes, should I bet the river?
Results to follow
Dave in Cali
I raised, the bettor and caller both called, the rest folded. A blank hit the river, I threw caution to the wind and bet. The bettor called me and the caller folded. My flush won and he didn't show his hand.
Dave,
I raise without question. I live in Vegas but have played in the SoCal casinos 5 times in the last 3 months. In that type of game, someone is liable to bet a straight, set or even 2 pair there to see how serious you are. Heck, there are situations where I will to that as well. Raising not only forces the people with a shot at beating you to pay…..it forces people with NO shot to beat you to pay as well! In those games people show no fear. In fact, by raising the flop and then again on the turn, sometimes that will convince people that you DON’T have the flush, and are trying to protect your hand. I have been called down by as little as A-Jo (top pair top kicker) in that situation. Make the draws and the zero out hands pay. Raise, Raise, Raise.
Assuming you aren’t re-raised, the river decision depends on what card hits, and how many people called. Any non-nut flush is unlikely to check raise you on the river, so as long as no heart comes I would bet. All sorts of hands will call you down, give them the opportunity. If you are beat by anything but the nuts, it is unlikely to cost you more than 1 extra BB if you raise on the turn.
Clark
(going to read the other post now..assuming it has the results.)
Hey Dave. I think the raise was the smart move. But remember that in low limit HE, you could have been up against some 'no fold em' guy who had a mid-level heart and would see you to the river, as happened to me in New Orleans saturday. Nice play.
All the more reason to raise. Make that person with one heart call 2 BB to hit his (at best) 7 outer.
I would definately raise, your odds of winning are better than a pair of Aces preflop in a family pot! Seriously, if I remember correctly you can expect to lose 2 of three times with many callers, so raising is a good thing, imo.
Mike
I'm posting this without having eyed the results.
definitely not a routine decision as I see people bet their precious straights and two-pairs into "obvious" flushes all the time. the thing is, if you raise and lose all heart singletons BUT the queen, king or ace (one of which is likely to bet out there), what have you accomplished? you've rid the infield of all the cowboys bucking a dead bronco. perhaps it's better to just call, and if the turn bettor bets the river after no heart falls, just call again to encourage other calls. in this way, you've maximized the haul when you do win and avoided the dreaded reraise when you're secondbest.
Mark
Thanks for the response. I think you will wind up having the minority opinion on this one. That dreaded reraise pretty much gives you a chance to fold for the same price as calling twice, but if the bettor doesn't have a flush or high flush card, your smooth call may allow someone with a higher heart than you to call when they would have folded for a raise. Perhaps I will analyze it later, but take the following situation. Say you just call and someone with a Th or Jh calls with their flush draw. Suppose also that all the remaining hearts are in the deck, giving your opponent seven outs to beat you. That's seven times you will lose the entire pot, sometimes including another bet on the river. The extra bets you will make by smooth calling will probably not make up for those seven times you lose the entire pot. Furthermore, you are allowing someone with a lone heart a chance to draw against you cheaply when you don't raise. A good % of pots are more than big enough to draw at a seven outer on the turn for one bet, but not nearly as many are big enough to draw at a seven outer for two bets. This is even more true if more than one player has a single heart, because now the one that has a draw to the winner has fewer outs, and the one that has the lower hearts is drawing dead. I would still advocate raising as the best play here.
Dave in Cali
I make the assumption that someone holding a Qh would call a raise. would I? probably not in that situation seeing as 3 players had already reacted favorably when the third heart fell. but in other instances I wouldn't hesitate to call a raise. when so many players see flops with EVERY 2-suited combo, low flushes aren't exactly rarities. but I think most low-limit players would call a raise in that situation if they held a queen. so a raise would protect your hand only in those cases when a queen, king, or ace was NOT out AND one or two players held a singleton ten or jack who would call a singlebet but not a doublebet AND providing another heart did fall on the river. here's a ballpark estimate on the combined frequencies: 30% x 80% x 16% = about 4%. if one could generate an average net increase of 1-2 big bets by NOT raising (a HUGE if), then wouldn't calling be better?
and what if you raise in this situation and some goofball decides to reraise with his Q-high straight? do you automatically fold your flush to a reraise?
last time out I witnessed two yokels bodyslamming one another with the following board: 3s4h5s7c. there were 6 or 7 reraises before they called a truce. I of course figured both of them held 68 and that the wiser of the two held 68spades. the river card was a non-spade Q. this time there was only one bet and a call! turned out neither player held 68 and they split the pot.
Godd counter argument to smoothcall but I like the reasons for raising more.
Again, sound logic. Note that the turn bettor can have a straight which makes your turn raise even more correct.
unless the guy with the straight reraises! see my comments above.
As stated in my previous post below, I had a rotten time in New Orleans saturday. But a situation did arise that I thought might make for interesting discussion.
I was sitting straight across from the dealer. The guy to my right was loose/passive and playing a classic game of 'no fold em hold em'. In the 5 hours I was there, he played EVERY HAND.
Anyway, when I play HE, I sit in various positions. I'll sit straight up, slump down, cross my legs, sit close to the table, and back slightly away from the table at times. I do this for two reasons. To stay comfortable and focused, and to try not to give away any tells.
About 1/2 hour into the game I was sitting slightly back from the table, having folded my hand. The action was all to my right, and so I was looking in that direction. The 'no fold em' guy had his cards in his right hand, and I could see them as clear as day.
After the action, I quietly remind him about protecting his hand. He thanked me and was okay for about 10 minutes. Then he did it again. I reminded him about protecting, and he did it again not 5 minutes later, and I reminded him for the last time.
For the next four hours, I had at times, a clear view of his hole cards. I never tried to peek, but if I was looking down the table to my right, there are his cards, in plain sight, looking right at me.
I reasoned that I had politely reminded him THREE times about protecting his hand, and if he wanted to give me a free peekie, what am I to do? I'm not going to change my style of play and sit close to the table the whole time, making myself uncomfortable. Yet, I felt dirty at those times when I could see his cards.
Any advice?
You are there to make money not be ethical take advantage of the idiot and stop warning him. If you feel bad get a new conscience
Part of playing poker (albeit a small part) is protecting your hand. You were polite, you reminded him three times and he still didn't listen. Yes it gives you an advantage (not only on him but the whole table) but you were polite, you warned him. I would suggest maybe warning him one more time, the next time he got up to go to the bathroom, discreetly tell him your dilema and how his inability to protect the hand affects the whole table and not just him.
I don't think you did anything wrong.
I will always remind someone once, politely and discreetly, to protect their hand. If someone is that weak, you certainly don't want to drive them from the game by offending them. If they are super-nice and a super-fish then I will remind them twice. The third time I make a play at them with nothing, take the pot from them, and don't say a word. There is no guilt or shame at that point. The most important thing in casino poker is to protect your hand, period.
By the way, that's not even CLOSE to "long". Just read SmoothB's posts or my posts, I think we have a running bet on who is the longest winded forumite. There are a couple other "contenders" too….
Dave in Cali
I don't think you did anything wrong either. There is an old guy at my casino that is notorious for that -- he is oblivious to the people around him. And I've seen him get 4-bet on the river from a solid player sitting next to him who beat him with a ten-high flush against this old guy's 8-high flush. So I guess they'll just have to learn the hard way.
There is one thing you should be careful about though. I don't know the rules where you play, but where I play, if the dealer thinks you have seen another players cards, his hand AND your hand are dead. They don't flash the cards for the other players to see, they just muck 'em. So ethically you have done nothing wrong, but the casino's stance is that it is also your responsibility to not look (but I know it's hard to avoid sometimes). I have never actually seen this rule enforced, but warnings have been made by the floor person (mostly directed to the fish of course).
Both hands are from a 4-8 kill game (not kill pots), typical loose semi-aggressive lineup.
First hand: 1 loose limper UTG who sometimes, but not always, plays like a borderline maniac, enters the pot. I have TsTc and raise in middle position. The button, a very loose player who WAY overplays lots of hands, cold calls. The SB folds and the BB calls, 4 see the flop.
Flop comes 7h 5h 5s. Checked to me, I bet, button calls, BB folds, UTG calls.
Turn is the 6c. UTG bets. From experience, I know that his betting out here doesn't mean much. He would bet with anything from a pair to a straight to a flush draw to two overcards to the pure nuts. Now what am I going to do here, call? No dice. If I call the turn, I am pretty much saying that I don't believe that he has me beat, so I am forced to also call the river. Plus, if I call the turn, I give the button a cheap chance to catch a card to beat me. Instead, I raise. It's a dangerous raise, because both of these players would definitely slowplay trip fives and try to raise later in the hand. But the fact that UTG is betting into me leads me to believe that he DOESN'T have a five, and instead has a draw, perhaps with a pair. I want the button to fold, and it costs the same to raise now as it would to call twice anyway. I plan to fold if it gets reraised. Anyway, the button folds and UTG calls.
River is a king. UTG checks, I check. Tens up wins.
Second hand: The button from the previous hand has moved seats, and is on the button again in this hand. I am UTG with QhQd and raise. 2 loose players cold call, as does the button, blinds fold, 4 players.
The flop comes Jh Js 3h, not an especially good flop for me, but I can't assume I am behind yet. I bet and the two limpers fold. The button raises. His raise doesn't mean SQUAT, I know that from experience. I reraise. He caps. Mmmmmm. Does he really have it? I am not sure, despite the fact that it may look obvious to some of you forumites. I haven't decided whether to check and call to the river or to check and fold if he bets the turn. If I call the turn, I MUST call the river too, because I am saying that I don't believe him. Calling the turn but folding the river is exactly equal to drawing to a two outer, which I won't do with such a small pot.
The turn comes and I check. He checks as well, now I know I have him. I plan to check the river and try to induce a bluff, which is very likely to occur.
The river is the 6h. I check again. Now I am wondering if I should have bet the turn to keep him from getting a free card, i.e. a HEART. However, had I bet the turn, I would estimate a 40-60% chance of him raising me no matter what he had, which would have put me to a tough decision. He bets, right on cue. I call him and turn over my queens. He mucks.
Both of these hands illustrate raises that I made that were dangerous. Although I won both pots, I do not necessarily advocate that I made the best possible decisions here, although knowing my opponents did influence my decisions. Comments on my play welcome, including flames.
Dave in Cali
everything you did makes sense to me, but the risks were cushioned because relatively few players saw the flop. as a general observation, when 6-8 players see a flop and there's a pair on board, overpairs bite the dust a high percentage of the time.
You should bet the river in hand no. 1.
Think about it. If he has a 5 or a straight, he would 3 bet your turn raise. If he has a King, he would probably bet the river. In any event, it would take an intrepid player to checkraise the river if he had a King.
I can never understand why players constantly check the river in this situation. But other than that, your play and more importantly, your logic was sound.
on balance I agree that Dave should have bet the river. but just because a king fell on the river doesn't mean his opponent would've "probably" bet if he held a king. for example, if he figured Dave would only raise preflop with JJ, QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQsuited or KQsuited, wouldn't his best move have been to check and call?
But would Dave (or any player at most times), raise the turn with AK, KQ, AQ etc.?
Probably not.
Therefore, if the other guy had a King, he should know that most of the time, he would have just sucked out on the river i.e., 12 combos of JJ/QQ (18 if you add TT) vs. 9 combos of KK/AA. In addition, I think that if the other guy knew that Dave had AQ, he should bet as it's likely that Dave will call with AQ but not bluff with it.
I don't think Dave's opponent would've been calculating in that fashion had he held a king. it's more like: "I'm gonna come out firing on the turn with my inside straight draw and 2 over cards (K9offsuit) [or substitute flush draw with Kxspades] representing trips and hope Dave and the other guy succumb to my assault. wow, Dave raised and the other guy dropped out. well, he ain't scared o' nobody so I figure he's holding at least KK. (after the king falls). hmmm, I backed into a good hand but he''ll raise me if I bet my kings and he holds what I think he holds and he might just bet with a lower pair so I'll just check to avoid getting raised again and might just pick up an extra bet if my hand's good and he decides to bet his QQ or JJ or bluff his nothin'."
While I think we disagree on how Dave's opponent would view the situation on the river if he held a King (perhaps due to the opponents we face in our respective usual games), your post raises a point that is so important to success at poker: Getting inside your opponent's head.
This is particularly so in the 5 player max games that I am now playing in on a semi-regular basis. There, you generally play based on what your opponent doesn't have and what he might think you have rather than playing based on what you in fact have.
well said. low-limit So. Cal. style bears little resemblance to the Las Vegas low-limit games I sharpened my teeth on. players here are both more compulsive and impulsive and bizarre antics abound.
I wouldn't have played these hands any differently.
I like the play with the tens - you were planning to call anyway so you might as well just get the second bet in there on the turn.
I would have played the queens the same way too. The reraise on the flop is mandatory. On this kind of board, I believe a raise means one of the following things:
1) I have a flush draw and I want a free card.
2) I have a pair and I believe you have AK or AQ.
3) I smooth called with AA and now I am going to extract the max.
4) I really do have a jack, and I want to put the heat on so that you don't believe I have it.
Very good players vary their combination of these to such an extent that it is very tricky to play against them. If you think about it, you could play in such a way that the preflop raiser CAN NOT beat you. Think about it and you will see what I mean.
As it turns out, 90+ % of all players play in a very straightforward way - so that minimizes the possibility of 3 and 4 and puts more weight toward 1 and 2. So, by all means, raise.
-SmoothB-
I really like your logic in hand #2 about calling the turn only with the intention of calling the river. This is simple, solid, logic, but there are times I will call the turn in a similar situation, and then fold against a river bet because "he is probably not bluffing." Thinking back on these hands, I am always mad at myself for calling the turn without thinking ahead.
Good post
Fallon
I'm in the BB in a 4-8 kill game, and it's a kill pot. The killer is a very bad player who is very difficult to read, and sometimes makes tricky plays that make no sense at all. One thing's fer sure, you CAN'T put him on a hand. Sometimes he telegraphs his intentions to bet or raise though, which can be useful. He is the killer in this hand, in the cutoff. He has about nine towering stacks of chips in front of him, probably $450 total (I know he buys in for 100). The strange thing today is that he seems to be on tilt, overplaying hands more than usual, and getting pissed every time someone wins a pot against him. Who knows….
So two players limps and the button also limps, SB folds. I look down to see 7s5s and call the extra 4$. The killer checks, 4 players. Was this call too loose? Against these weak players, I didn't think so.
Flop comes 5h 9s Td. Bottom pair with a backdoor flush and str8 draw, not an especially good flop in a four way pot first to act. I was going to check and fold, but the two limpers both tried to check out of turn, so instead I decided to bet. Both limpers folded, but the killer called. I watched him to try and figure out what he might have, but of course I already said you can't put him on a hand….
The turn comes the 8s, giving me a gutshot plus a flush draw. My hand just got quite a bit better. Again the button looks confused, so I fire away with a stack of sixteen. He pauses, then calls. Grrrrrrr….
River is the tremendously spectacular 3d, excuse me please while a do a cartwheel! I feel that he didn't get what he wanted by the look on his face, but of course trying to read him is a futile gesture. I don't think I can win by checking it down, and if I check, he might bet, in which case I would have a crying call at best. No, I figure since I have gone this far, I might as well go all the way… I bet the river, putting 4 nice little stacks neatly in a row. I haven't even gotten the 12th chip stacked before he is reaching for his chips to call me. I figured that I must have been bluffing, a futile waste of sixteen chips, trying to bluff a near calling station. I must be an idiot, I played this one terribly, right? Well, he calls me and I turn over my hand. "Pair of sixes" I said. He very, VERY slowly turns over his cards…….. And shows me AhJs.
Gotta love it.
Flames welcome, I don't figure this one is worth much in the way of comments.
Dave in Cali
I love the play all the way until the river. My experience in these games is that he will NEVER lay down a hand better than yours. In addition, he may fold hands that he would otherwise make a bluff with.
I favor checking it down and raking the pot, perhaps inducing a bluff. While in this case you raked in an extra BB, its entirely possible that he would have bet had you checked, making it a wash. A call from you in this case is far from a crying call. You also take the (not unheard of in my LA experience) bluff raise out of the question. In that case you really would be making a crying call.
Is 75s really good enough to play in this situation? I think it's a stretch to play it under almost any circumstances. If there aren't many people it stinks, and if there lots of people I worry about getting outflushed if I get there. I save the trouble and muck it pretty quickly.
Any thoughts?
How much would I be giving up if I NEVER played Qxs, J7s, T7s, 96s, 86s, 75s, 64s, 43s, 32s. I don't even like them in the SB with lots of callers. Out of position, outflushed, lots can go wrong, not to mention that you won't get there most of the time.
Personally I love 43s, and 32s and play those for variance. Why? Cause if you catch your A-5 straight (dunno what it is called) your EV is decently high because of all the Ax people. I never play 43s and 32s after a raise or in early position. But sometimes I will raise with it for variance in very late position to scoop the pot or to call to the end to give the indication to my opponent I may not know what I'm doing :)
Three times I've flopped the straight while my opponents were holding AK & AQ. Both two pairs hit and I made a killing.
It can be a fun hand to play for variance. It's great if it hits two pair or your straight because people will call you down with A high.
it's called a bicycle or wheel or 5 high straight your choice
Against these generally weak players I play it, against very aggressive players, or good players, I would muck in the same situation. I was getting 7:1 to call here, had it been much less than that, I would have folded.
What do you guys think in general about playing offsuit big cards. In the poker books they always rip on these hands and say they are not very good in loose games, because they don't stand up well against many opponents. Consequently I am becoming paranoid about playing hands like Q-10, A-10, etc. This is reinforced by the fact that I have gotten beat every time I have played K-J, once even when the flop came K-J-x (beat by a set). My question is how do you guys approach these hands? Never play in early position? What if no one tends to raise preflop? As I understand the general theory is if you have this hand on the button and there is only one or no callers to the blinds, you raise to try and win the pot right there. Does that mean you don't even bother to call and just fold if everyone calls the blinds? (because they don't play well multiway). This always bugs me when I get A-J in early position in a loose passive game, or have Q-10 on the button after 5 people have called, etc. Should I even play these hands for one bet? Thanks, Tim
QTo and similar hands, I will muck early and much late in family pots. The only time I will play such a hand, is button stealing or even cut-off stealing in a tight/passive game.
KJ, AT and the likes aren't what the poker books mean by big offsuit cards. They are mainly talking AK and AQ only. I agree they lose value. To put it this way, I'd rather have AQs in a loose ring game rather than AKo. Even AJs runs it close. In tight, aggressive, tough ring-games AJ doesn't come close to AK, never mind suitedness.
In loose passive games, you should try isolating people (if that works) as much as possible with big offsuit cards (then I mean BIG). If five people already have limped in, limp in too, and put yourself in a better position to isolate on the flop or even on the turn if the board "allows" it.
lars
from "hold'em pre-flop strategy according to abdul"
due to the effect of comunity cards, hold'em is a game of "domination", a term coined by Roy Hashimoto. a hand is dominated if it has 3 or fewer outs against another, like AJ against AQ. second best offsuit hands are what make you money in hold'em - when other players play them...lure your opponants into playing dominated hands while avoiding dominated situations yourself.
offsuit hands have "reverse implied odds", since they cannot usually bet and raise with confidence towards the end of the hand. normally, an offsuit hand likely to be best should make it expensive to see the flop, in order to harm the hands that have good implied odds to see the flop cheaply. a strong offsuit hand is still strong when facing several oponants, between its chance of making an AKQJT straight, two pair or a top pair that holds up.
opening hand rankings and minimum openers
UTG and/or 6 seats from the button: AK AQ
5 from button: AJ
4 AT KQ
3 KJ QJ
2 A9
1 A7 KT QT JT
button A3 K7 Q9 98 J9
when a hand is "missing", it belongs to the lower position. for instance, in the table there is A9 and there is A7; the missing hand, A8, belongs with A7.
with loose players coming in with hopeless hands like T7 and J6, then it's true that you can play looser after limpers...you should raise liberally to punish them, since weak offsuit hands really get hurt by pre-flop raises...after loose limpers who would have raised with their best hands, offsuit hands likely to be best (like A9, QJ, KJ, and even KT) will win more than their fair share of pots and should raise. Don't get carried away with calling with offsuit aces here; for fear of domination, A8 is about the lowest calling hand...it is a myth that hands like AQ are in trouble here. you are in trouble if you don't raise, but if you raise you wreck the implied odds of the suited garbage your opponants hold."
hope that helps.
Thanks guys, the general sense I get are that these hands are not that great and if you do play them, raise to try and isolate and/or cut down the odds for people trying to draw cheaply. I like the dominated hand concept, I never thought of that. I used to always play hands like K-10 and K-J offsuit, and almost always lost with them as I made expensive second best hands. I doubt I will try and limp in with these hands unless I have AQ or AK, I'd rather fold if there are lots of opponents preflp. Thanks for your help. -Tim
QT might be a good raising hand (though I usually prefer KT as it dominates both KX and QX), just like AT, AQ. But only if you feel it's a value raise, that you are the dominator. That's a simple way to look at it. If it's not worth a raise, then as a main rule it's not worth a call either, in spite of the pot odds, as it loses that much when it's dominated too often (if it's suited, only then the pot odds make it playable). The same is half-true on the streets also. This is because of the community cards. The same is not that true with non-community card games.
I was in a loose low limit game at Cantebury. Lots of limpers with little raising. I am in the big blind with A6o. 5 players limp the SB calls and I just call. Flop is KhJcQh.
Everyone checks. Turn is a blank. Once again everyone checks (would anyone bet here?).
River is a 10h. Ok now I have a straight, but with 5 other players getting free cards, I am not certain if anyone has made a flush, so I check (SB has checked also). Next two check, call, check, call, fold. I folded here.
There were only 3 1/2 BB in the pot at the time. As it turns out, I would have ended up splitting the pot with the two others as they both had an Ace.
How big of a mistake was this? My fold was based on the size of the pot. If there was only one caller I probably would have called. After the second caller, I felt like I was at best putting in 1 bet to win one bet, with a chance of losing to a flush.
I don't think you made a mistake for a new player. You are correct that the pot size was pretty small for an overcall.
However, it looks like there were 5 1/2 BB in the pot when action got to you on the river - not 3 1/2.
(7 players saw the flop for 3 1/2 BB then a bettor and caller on the river for 5 1/2).
It depends on who is doing the betting on the river. I have played in a lot of LL games at Canterbury where anyone with a flush draw would definitely have bet the turn after the flop was checked around. (If anyone bet the turn, I would have folded).
I have also played in games with squeaky tight players who would NEVER bet or call that hand without the flush. If one of them is betting or calling, pretty easy fold.
Barring a rock betting or calling the river, I probably would have called the river if no one raised, especially if my call closes the action (no one can raise behind me).
As you keep playing, you will find that these small decisions that get you an extra bet or two here and there can make a BIG difference in the long run.
You were correct- there were 5 1/2 BB when the action was to me. If the pot was larger- I would have called for sure (but I don't know how I would have been sticking around to help build it larger). Thank you for your input.
I would have called. From a strictly mathematical standpoint, odds are against someone having a flush. Also, with a flush draw and so many limpers, someone might have bet on the flop, but nobody did, so you should not fear a flush so much.
Much of the time in low limit, people will call on the river with two pair, top pair, or the low end of the straight. It's a mistake to assume that they play the river intelligently. They don't.
To answer your other question, a bet on the turn is not a good idea. Someone will call in a game like this, and you still have to make something to win the hand.
What is your read on the bettor? It is unlikely that he/she holds a flush. Ignore the caller for a moment, if they held a flush, they would assuredly have raised, probably calling with 2 pair or maybe the same str8. I don't like call here but I do like raise. You have the best str8. Remember, money is made by the mistakes of others. You are heavily favored to at least split the pot, your raise will give you a shot at the whole pot plus, if the caller does indeed have two pair, your raise allows them to make the mistake of making one more call. Yes, I appreciate that the pot is small. You can use that to your advantage. Does the bettor want to call your raise for a small pot without having the nuts. If you do not have a read on the bettor then calling is the best course of action. I would be certain that they do not hold a flush though. You have a free roll raise for the whole pot.
Newbie,
The no-limit concept is being "pot stuck," the point at which the pot is laying you better odds than the likelihood the opponent is bluffing.
You should call here in a typical LL game UNLESS the better just wouldn't bet a straight or the caller wouldn't call with a straight. In a mid-limit game where people will lay down small flushes, the first caller will often raise when several players are left to act.
Matt
Okay I know AA KK QQ JJ are good but what about the rest in a low limit game loose passive low limit game?
Play 'em all.
I'll add Tens and Nines to your big list, because these pairs, just like AA, KK, QQ and JJ, are also hands that are long-term profitable in ANY unraised pot with ANY number of players seeing the flop.
Eights and worse must sometimes be folded under the wrong circumstances, even in unraised pots. It's of course gradually here too, you are likely to play far more pocket Eights than pocket Deuces.
I always raise with AA, KK and QQ and most of the time with JJ. if I'm in late position, and there are lots of limpers already, I'll often raise with other pairs as well. in early position, I'll always raise with the top four and often with TT as well. I tend to call with all other pairs reckoning that at least 4 others will have also limped (blinds aside) by the time the flop arrives. this approach only applies to loose PASSIVE games, i.e., those with not much raising before the flop.
I always raise with AA-JJ, usually raise with TT, and I will ALWAYS call with 99-22 as long as I: have 5+ people seeing the flop with me, am unafraid of a preflop raise, and expect people to play too loosely postflop.
These are almost always the conditions in the $3-6 game I play in, and are typical loose-passive LLHE. Basically the strategy is based on the fact that with any pocket pair you have about 8:1 odds of flopping a set, but you can play with smaller odds than this preflop because of the implied odds you will be getting after the flop (note the condition of people chasing after the flop).
Also, in order to make these hands profitable, when there is a bet and a call in front of you on a flop of J 7 2 and you have 99, you have to be capable of folding it. With small pocket pairs, you basically have to flop a set or fold.
Well, there's my two sense...
-----Jeff in Mass
AA, KK, QQ, JJ raise in almost all situations. Each of these hands can win on their own merit. TT, 99 command raises from early positions to isolate the pot. They play better in very short fields. 88 and lower I recommend waiting till later positions looking for at least four callers in front and one or two still to act. These hands play poorly heads up and usually need improvement. As mentioned, odds are 1 in 7.5 to flop a set. It is difficult to get straight pot odds pre-flop but your implied odds will make up the difference. Implied odds represent the number of bets you will get paid once you have flopped your set. Some caution, JJ and lower play quite poorly in 3 bet pots so you will want at least 5 way action to proceed. Getting away from these hands will save you a great deal of money over the distance. You don't want to play them in a 3 way pot unless you really know your opponents to be overly-aggressive players and will generate a large pot over playing their overpairs when you flop a set. Remember, it is not just about winning a pot, it is about getting the right price for trying.
I hope this helps.
Larry
I consider anything less than JJ a drawing hand in big multi-way pots. Unless the flop is incredibly generous, no overcards, which doesn't happen that often, you probably need to hit a set or a straight to take down the pot. Heads up, or against two players is a different situation. But in general, I play my mid pocket pairs to take down the huge pots by hitting a set, or to steal blinds.
Leaving for vegas in like 24 hours...cant wait.
Besides Mirage/Carlo and Bellagio anyplace to play against mainly tourists...Binions tends to be too locals fromwhat I have heard.
My only experience with Vegas was at the Mirage. I played 3/6 HE for about 5 hours and was up about 5 racks. Then moved to the 4-8 full kill Omaha/8 game and was up another 2 racks in about 1 hour(I only played about 10 hands, and won 1...good loose game). I was too busy racking in chips to move to other rooms.
spanQy
You can find games at the Orleans as well. One of my favorites is an unlikely place, the excalibur. They have a wheel that you spin if you get certain types of hands. (Quads, str8 flushes etc...) What ends up happening is that a lot of people will chase with some extremely long draws in an effort to spin. Don't be one of them and you will most certainly reap the rewards of the game.
Good Luck and Have Fun.
larry
Low limit on PP.
On the small blind with KQo, very loose passive game. 5 limpers to me, I call, BB calls. 7 handed.
Flop J75 unsuited.
I check. mid-position player (MP) bets, 3 callers to me, I call, others fold.
Turn gives me the Q, no flush draw present. I go for a check-raise. MP bets, all fold to me, I raise, only MP calls.
River is a blank - think it was a 2. I bet, MP calls, and I win a decent pot.
Thinking about this afterwards, with 2 decent overcards and the pot giving me 10-1 on the flop, I think this is an ok call, but I'm wondering if raising or even folding may have been a better option. I put MP as a straight-forward player who probably had a J, not J5, J7 or 57, but 55, 77, AJ, KJ, QJ, JT and even J9 could have been possible.
On the turn, I'm not sure what the heck I was thinking, other than trying to thin the field and get rid of those Ax hands. Betting out might have given MP an opportunity to raise and do the same thing, and let me know I might be up against a set or 2 pair. Having all the players after MP bets fold to me might have just been dumb luck. On the other hand my image is fairly tight and this is the first pot I've been this far in at least 30 hands.
All comments welcome, I'm still learning.
The chat "omg" from the button is what really got me thinking on this. Was he right?
Thanks
mike
There are two problems with the flop call: 1) you aren't last to act on the round and 2) you're out of position for the last two rounds in a large field.
I think the call is okay if the people in the middle very rarely check raise the flop -- if you pay two bets to see the turn, it's been a disaster. You've got two good overcards and a backdoor straight draw, but rather than call it 6.5 outs, let's call it 3.5, because hitting a pair out will sometimes get you killed -- and the hand you are drawing to will be extremely vulnerable to redraws much of the time.
On the turn you make a hand but now you've got a problem. If you bet and get called all sorts of marginal hands will not be making a big mistake to call behind. If you bet and get raised, well, stuff happens. If you check and it gets bet and there are several calls behind, the check-raise becomes a thinner value raise that doesn't limit the field (which is okay, besides, you most certainly manipulated a couple people into making mistakes). If it gets bet and raised, you may have a tough decision if there is a two flush on the board.
It's very close. I'd tend to bet, because I don't want to give up a free card. How you played it seems fine too -- obviously, everything happened perfectly for you in the turn action...
The things that you'll have to sort out are, did you have any read to substantiate your flop call, or did you just decide to take one off? and did you have reason to believe that the turn would get bet? These things can be tough to figure out online...
What if you do if the flop bettor decided to check the turn with the presence of an overcard. Worse yet, when he bets and you get your checkraise, what if he makes it 3 to go? There you sit with top pair, big kicker facing an extra bet, don't know exactly where you are and got yourself their on you own. If it works out, great, because it will slow others down from betting you everytime you check getting you more free cards later on. If it doesn't, disaster because you will have people playing at you all day long thinking that you are prone to overplaying hands. Bet the hand, if you get raised it isn't too hard of a laydown. You are almost assuredly beat here. If you don't get raised, be aware of redraws and then value bet the river. Moral of the story, be cautious about getting into situations like this. "Man who go looking for trouble, usually finds it."
Larry
You can't improve much on the way you played it. Often calling multiway with overcards is a leak, but this is a good board and big enough pot to take one off, perhaps not if the flop opener was in later position, putting more players between you and the opener.
I usually bet the turn unless I'm pretty sure he'll bet. If they all fold, great.
It's a little squirrely but if they're really loose you could have raised before the flop, checking or check-raising if you missed, and should have done so if your cards were suited.
"It's a little squirrely but if they're really loose you could have raised before the flop, checking or check-raising if you missed, and should have done so if your cards were suited."
Gotta quibble with this. Check raising a large field from the SB after a bet and 3 calls when the flop misses you is a very bad idea. Maybe I've misread you.
I can live with betting out on the flop occasionally with a very weak hand that you intend to call with, but the check-raise makes absolutely no sense to me.
Maybe I've misunderstood...
I said raise before the flop. You have the likely best hand against a field.
I see that you're quibbling with the flop check-raise after raising preflop. I wasn't referring to this particular board and the action accompanying it, but just a general strategy of getting it heads-up with overcards versus a small pair or draw when they'll put you on a big pair and the pot is pretty big.
At least, Malmuth and Sklansky says that KQ is often the best hand to draw to overcards with...
But I would like a bigger pot or a backdoor flush to make the call here.
Sure, you are getting 10-1 to call on the flop, and are about 6.5-1 to turn top pair, but with three callers between you and the bettor, how often will it stand up?
It's not a big mistake, but I think it's still a pretty obvious fold.
lars
I appreciate the comments from everybody. After looking at this some more, I think the call with overcards on the flop was not great, but not bad either. Probably leaning toward not great with so many other people in the pot.
The turn check-raise was nuts. Better to bet out and get raised. If the original bettor had 3-bet me, that would have been bad, very bad.
Thanks a bunch 2+2ers.
mike
Hi.
1-2 on Paradise. I have KQo third to act, I call. Guy immediately to my left raises, one calls, both blinds call. Flop is AQ6 all diamonds. I check, raiser bets, everyone folds to me, and I muck too. He shows TT, no diamonds. I figured he could have a better pair/kicker, or even if he had JJ,TT, 99, he could have had a diamond. Was my decision correct?
At higher limits, you might want to throw a bet out there. But in a $1-$2 game, you probably don't ever after to. This is because you can still do very well by waiting until you're edge is clearer.
With a raise PF and and 5 ppl seeing the flop, I'd muck middle pair to a suited board containing an Ace -- no question. This is all the more true at low limits. Everyone and their mother will play a single ace, some for multiple bets PF. Give the raiser credit for a diamond or an ace and get out.
You didn't specify, but if you had the king of diamonds, you have an easy call. Otherwise, there are too many ways that you're beat. 3 flop cards of the same suit calls for cautious play. Besides, at 1-2, a better opportunity will come along soon.
Best Regards, -Kevin
This is one of the reasons that this is considered a trouble hand. If you insist on playing it (and I am not saying you should), play it with a raise. At least then you will receive more information in the hand. (who called, was it reraised, how did they call). At that point, if you get reraised, unless you know the player to 3 bet with only AA, KK or AK, you are almost assured that they are 3 betting with JJ TT or 99 in an attempt to make the hand heads up. Now, when the flop comes as it did, you can throw a bet into it and see how the backraiser reacts. Does he raise? smoothcall? or throw in a frustrated call reacting to the ace? So much to be gained from raising this hand if you are going to play it. That said, it is a trouble hand that will cost you in the long run. You are much better off simply folding it and waiting for better hands/situations.
Cheers Larry
What do you guys think about the way I played this hand? I don't know anything about the BB. I've got Ac Kh in the middle.
UTG limps, 3 guys fold to me, I raise, all fold to the BB who 3 bets, UTG calls, I call.
Flop is 8c Ad 6h
BB bets, UTG folds, I raise, BB calls.
Turn is Kc.
BB checks, I bet, BB raise, I call.
River is blank, BB bets, I call.
How should I have played it?
Tom
If you don't know the player, you gotta showdown here.
Against a little old lady who only 3 bets with AA or KK you can make a great laydown here but it is a tough one. The BB's play is very consistent with AA or KK, neither of which you can beat. Come to think of it, the best you could hope for is AQ or QQ but only a tricky player would play either of those in this manner. I think you are destined to lose a bit on hands like this. Better luck next time.
KS
A lot of low limit players are extremely rockish when it comes to raising and 3-betting out of the blinds. Typically SB has one of 10 hands: 6 you split (AK) with and 4 that scoop (3 KKs and 1 AA). This is a money loser for sure -- even the two-flush does suggest a semi-bluff when you have the Ac -- but I think you must call it down. You don't want to find out ten hands later that this stranger is a complete goofball. Consider this part of the process of building a book on this player. Besides, your hand really isn't one that you ever want to get off heads up -- although sometimes you'll have to take special steps to see the hand through cheaply and to not bet too predictably. Flat calling the flop was a very legitimate option, and against some people would be the right thing to do... Checking the turn behind was a very legitimate option as well, and against some people whould be the prudent thing to do.
I think you played it okay -- but you didn't keep your antennae up after having been 3-bet from the blinds.
"I think you played it okay -- but you didn't keep your antennae up after having been 3-bet from the blinds. "
The reason I posted this here is because I was 3-bet before the flop. Otherwise I call it down for sure, but I wasn't sure if the 3-bet pre-flop and the check-raise on the turn was enough for me to lay down.
I ended up splitting with AK.
It would be fine to never lay this hand down. Against someone who might tempt you to lay it down (complete rock), play softer (and, in effect, deceptively) after the flop. Flat call the flop (they won't be confident that the flop hit you) and bet the turn if checked to. Or raise the flop and check the turn if a K or Q falls. Position has its defensive oriented benefits too.
Obviously you'll run into the occasional goose who could be over-playing pocket tens and you'll want to collect all the way with a raise on the flop and by betting the turn when checked to -- but most of these guys won't seriously make you want to release your hand if they check-raise the turn.
Typically SB has one of 10 hands: 6 you split (AK) with and 4 that scoop (3 KKs and 1 AA).
Isn't there only 1 way for him to have KK? If I'm not mistaken, Tom holds one King in his hand and one K is on the board... the last time I checked there were 4 Kings in the deck. Did I misunderstand you? I'm not sure I get the 6 AK's either. Fernando
oops -- thanks, that was a very big mistake...
Jim Brier has an article in this months Card player about river betting and some general strategy for 10-20-40 holdem games. Southern Louisiana casinos' spread a 3-6-12 holdem game. I was wondering if anyone had an opinion as to whether the strategies brier outlines in his article would translate to this structure as well.
I think the strategy of being more cautious with value-bets on the river would apply even more to 3-6-12 since lower limit players are usually more prone to chase (e.g., hoping to hit their 2-4 outer) and slow-play.
I tend to surrender my blinds every time if I don't have a medium pair or better, or two cards over 10. Am I giving up too much here? What is the consensus on blind play? My rationale for dumping them without a fight is poor position. It seems like the books out there don't really say much about the blinds. My play is pretty good when I'm not on tilt. Would I be better off to even tighten up a bit more? How much money is lost on poor blind play? Tons?
I think that it is a huge leak in the play of most LLHE players. You are right to release substandard blind hands. Not because they are cost little to see the flop, but because they cost a lot when they make connection to the flop. Quite often you will find yourself in dominated situations. As your game improves and your hand reading skills increase, you might find yourself calling a couple of extra hands from the blinds. This does not mean to suddenly take liberties with a bunch of hands, it just means that against certain opponents, you might see a couple of extra flops with the intention of outplaying them. In the meantime, I suggest that you stick to your regimen of playing very tight from the blinds.
Cheers. Larry
I think that it is a huge leak in the play of most LLHE players. You are right to release substandard blind hands. Not because they are cost little to see the flop, but because they cost a lot when they make connection to the flop. Quite often you will find yourself in dominated situations. As your game improves and your hand reading skills increase, you might find yourself calling a couple of extra hands from the blinds. This does not mean to suddenly take liberties with a bunch of hands, it just means that against certain opponents, you might see a couple of extra flops with the intention of outplaying them. In the meantime, I suggest that you stick to your regimen of playing very tight from the blinds. Any other comments??
Cheers. Larry
One thing I know for sure is that lots more money is lost in "protecting" the blinds than in missed opportunities. When you do catch a solid starting hand, you can exploit it very successfully in a LL game because many players tend to think the blinds are always worthless. Keep playing tight and watch those early raisers; I treat the SB like a mid-to late position hand before the flop and the BB just a tad looser in games up to $5-10.
It depends upon who the raiser is, how many players are in the pot, and where the raise comes from.
1. UTG is a tight player, he raises, everyone folds
to you. I would play AK or a pair only.
2. UTG is loose agressive type, he raises, 4 people
call. Here you can play many hands: suited aces,
connectors, pair, even one or two gaps.
3. MP player raises, tight guy 3 bets, everyone folds
to you. Smooth call with AK or AA-TT, else fold.
4. The button is loose/agressive. Everyone folds to him, he raises. Here you should 3 bet with almost any Ace or pair. Call with connectors,suited one
gaps. Check raise the flop often.
5. UTG is tight, he raises, loose agressive guy 3 bets.
Here you have to worry abut UTG hand. Call with AK or any pair. Check raise the flop the flop if you hit.
6. 4 people limp, loose agressive guy on the button
raises. You should 3 bet with good hands here
(e.g AK,AQ, AA-TT). Call with the other hands like
connectors or smaller pairs. Bet out if the flop
hits you.
Typical loose passive game w/ one other solid player at my table seated to my immedeate right. I get dealt black Aces. Solid player and 2nd to act call, I raise, 2 late position cold-call, BB calls and both original players call.
Flop- J,4,5 (2 clubs)
Checked to me I bet, fold, LP raises, BB folds, call, solid player calls (uh-oh), I raise, LP calls, solid and EP calls.
Turn-7 not a club
Solid player bets. Now heres my dilemna I know she is a solid player and no she wouldnt call 3 on flop w/ a gutshot straight and know she wouldnt have two pair in this situation w/ such a ragged board... I have a feeling I am behind though cause she bet into me who she knows is a solid player due to our conversation in between hands. Do I have to call her down here? What do you do? Another note is that she is not that tricky of a player.
Results will be posted below....
SS,
Sounds like a real dilemma here... if she's a solid, mostly straightforward player, I think you're behind here. The most likely hand that I could put her on would be pocket JJ which seems reasonable given that she'd be expecting a multiway pot.
I can't imagine that she would limp with 77 early and then call 2 bets cold on the flop after checking. The LP raise smells like a flush draw and I like your 3 bet on the flop to weed out the trash. Any other draw hand seems unreasonable for her to have (both straight or flush because of the rags on board). I would be very concerned that she called 5 SBs so far and then bet into you on the turn.
That's my guess... JJ and she flopped a set. This is a fold or reraise situation if I ever saw one to get the flush draw out and the hand heads up. If she 3 bets then I fold. If she calls, I check it down unless I spike an Ace on the river.
Looking forward to your results, Mike
Mike- You Wrote:
"This is a fold or reraise situation if I ever saw one to get the flush draw out and the hand heads up. If she 3 bets then I fold. If she calls, I check it down unless I spike an Ace on the river."
I believe you need to re-think this. First off, raising the turn will probably not get a flush draw to fold, particularily at the 3-6 level. Second, even if re-raised by the solid player, the pot now becomes so large that our hero should probably call if only to try and snag an ace. (Notice he is not concerned about hitting an ace and losing to the flush). Now, he probably still should make the crying call even when he misses due to the size of the pot (with the possible exception being if a club falls). The bottom line is, this is NOT a clear raise or fold situation... IMO
Kevin
Kevin,
The reason I advocate the reraise or fold position here is the fact that the "solid" player bets into you after quietly checking and calling 5 SBs. I think that she is betting her set of Jacks hand here to try and enlist our hero to raise and make it really expensive for the flush draw to stay in. Even with the flush draw and position, I would find it extremely difficult to call 2 and possibly 3 big bets just to see if it hits. If the flush draw has a pair to go with it, then that's a different story entirely.
I think you and I will both agree that the 7 doesn't help the solid player here. Playing 77 through 3 bets on the flop just doesn't make sense.
AJ suited for the solid player doesn't make sense here either unless she has such a strong read on our hero and can put him on 2 big cards headed by an Ace. A small set seems unlikely because she would have check-raised the flop (3 bet in this case after LP raises) with a dangerous board.
IMO that leaves only one possible hand that she could have... JJ. Just calling here complicates the problem by enticing the flush draw to stay for one bet and give you more ways to lose. A raise here followed by her 3 bet tells you exactly where you stand without question because our hero says she doesn't make any fancy plays.
The pot is not laying the 22:1 odds to try and snag an Ace on the river. Therefore, a fold if all of this action happens is not a bad play. Although for only $6 more, I suspect a lot of people (including myself) would grit my teeth and pray for a nice river. If this game were $15-$30 or above, I suspect you'd see a lot of players fold to the 3 bet.
Hope this helps to explain my rationale behind my choice. Again, I look forward to seeing the results of this.
Best wishes, Mike
Mike-
Let's presume our hero is currently beat only by the set of jacks when he raises the turn and is now re-raised by the set of jacks. There would be 19 big bets in the pot when the action got back to him. He surely can count on the implied odds of the (assumed) flush draw calling one more, and collecting at least one more bet from the set of jacks on the river when he hits an ace. It's important that he doesn't fear making his set and losing to a flush (although he could concievably lose to a str8). His implied odds are right there to call, especially if there is any chance he could have the best hand. All I'm saying, is that raising could be the worst play, especially if it causes him to incorrectly fold for a re-raise.
Of course, if he's that sure the lady has JJ, then he should simply fold for the single bet, since he's not getting odds to hit an ace (where he would be, had he raised and got re-raised).
There are other potential problems as well. It's entirely possible that the player behind him flopped a set and called the last flop raise planning to pop it on the turn. There is also a 64s str8 out there and a 32s draw (although unlikely).
Again, my only problem with your response was with the blanket "raise" or "fold" comment. In a poker hand, all options should at least be considered. Here, the third option of just calling while maybe not the best option depending on the situation and players, should not be entirely overlooked either. IMO-
I think you have to call sp down here. Sp could be riding an open ended straight or a big pair too and see you with a big pair or an open ended straight. jmo
Mike
Unless you've completely misread it her chance of bluffing here is zero and hardly any other hand besides a set (probably sevens) makes sense. Fold. When in doubt, stay with your best read. If you're wrong, read it better next time. I have notes on dozens of payoffs I've made in this situation and I'm positive I've lost more than I've won. Come to think of it, I think this is a fairly easy laydown.
I folded and EP called. SP bet the river which was non-club blank and EP called. SP showed pocket J's for the flopped set and then proceeded to tell me I was supposed to raise the turn for her to drive out the flush draws. I didnt see what EP had. Good read Mike.
If you were wondering my reasoning for folding, I was figuring I was behind to most likely a set, which I was and the only way I could catch up was to spike an ace. The pot wasn't lying me 22:1 odds so I mucked.
DISCLAIMER: Don't read this looking to learn anything. It is nothing more than a waste of time bad-beat story.
I'm playing 5/10 Hold'em with a kill. The pot is killed and I pick up KK in the big blind. Conveniently (?) betting is capped before it gets to me. I call the extra $30 and we see the flop with 6 players (positions 1-6 playing, im seat #3). About $240 in the pot at this point.
Flop comes Kh-5h-5d, giving me kings full.
Seat#2 checks to me , I bet.
2 players fold. 3 others call.
Turn comes 5c.
Checked to me, I bet. Seat#4, Seat#5 fold . Seat#1 raises. Seat#2 folds(heads up now). I reraise, and Seat#1 makes it 4 bets. I make it 5 bets and he calls (I've got him now, he would've reraised again with the nut 5, wouldnt he?)
I know Seat#1 is solid and not the type who will call the $40 pre-flop with anything but big suited cards or big pairs, regardless of how many players are seeing the flop(translation: I know he isn't holding the 5).
There is now $480 in the pot in a 5/10 game.
River comes 5s. Wow. (Board now reads K-5-5-5-5).
I bet, in a last ditch effort to get rid of him (I am now reduced to playing the board).
Seat#1 turns over AK and takes down $520.
Had to vent to somebody. I figured 2+2 was an excellent forum for that. You all can relate.
That's not a bad beat - your bet on the river was a bad play, in my opinion. No one that stuck in there that long was going to fold to a final river bet. Your only hope was for him to be playing a K or less.
Similar hand occured for me last night. I had pocket kings raise preflop. Flop comes 4,4,6. It gets bet I raise, Turn comes 4, checked to me I bet 2 call. River comes 4, Checked around and my K high holds up. Kinda interesting.
SS
Anytime I hear about a horrible beat I am reminded of the "Grand Daddy" of bad beats that occurred at the Bike in CA. a few years ago.
The game was 5/10 Hold'Em with a bad beat jackpot (Aces full or better beat by four of a kind or better). The jackpot was a little over $24,000 (not bad!).
Player had AA and flop came A,A,10 (10 is a heart). Checked to AA who also checked. Turn was 9 of hearts. Player bet, player called, AA called. River was J of hearts. Player bet, raise, AA re-raised, capped. One player turned over 7,8h, other player had K,Qh.
The player who was shut out of the jackpot was barred from the casino for 30 days for threatening the dealer. He went home, shaved his head (to get rid of the bad luck!) and went to the commerence club where he proceeded to down double vodkas one after another. Got drunk, got barred from the Commerence. Later that evening got arrested for walking around in his underware (he had peed in his pants and taken them off).
Footnote: He is a player well known for having a fierce temper. The type of player who will complain for 10 minutes any time a player makes a flush against his set. Many players feel that the poker gods were in an unusually playful mood that evening.
im playing the 2.50-5 game at the hollywood in aurora illinois last sunday... pretty different level of play than im used to playing against in the last 7 months in L.A. i pick up KK in 2nd UTG, UTG folds, i raise, my left calls, all else fold to BB who calls. flop comes Q53 rainbow... BB checks to me, i bet, my left raises, BB folds, i call. turn is K. (no flushes...) i check, my left bets, i raise, he calls. river is a 5. i bet, he raises, i reraise, he reraises back, i reraise again, he reraises, and i know i am probably beat, but i am not going to throw away kings-full for that last bet, so i call. sure enough he turns over 55. did i lose 2 big bets more than i should have? 3? 4? 5? id like to hear your opinions on this one.
2/4 table @ Canterbury in Mpls
I raise my BB w/ AA 4 callers Flop is Q rag rag SB bets I raise middle position player reraises all fold I check call to river where he shows me QQ for the set
My Question: My table image is good (as good as possible given the $2/4) so I didn't think he was being tricky--I felt I was beat--would most players play it as I did or should I have reraised the flop and folded to another raise? See turn card & fold w/o improvement??
Your thoughts please
As always, knowing your opponent is the key here. If you think you are beat go ahead and fold. Personally, I would almost never lay down AA in the situation you described, and I would definately reraise the flop.
Mike
I'm a fairly new player, and I've been getting beat up on pocket JJ, TT, 99, so I wondered how you guys on this forum play them. For instance, in typical games, is TT a value raise pre-flop in late position? Or raise only if you can thin the field? Or don't raise at all because it's a marginal hand and raises just make a big pot that makes all kind of draws correct on the flop? I tend to just call TT pre-flop since, assuming someone in the field holds each of an A, K, Q, J, there are 12 outs for the rest of the table. Plus, it's probably pretty rare for a typical LLHE player to fold a face card with any kind of decent kicker pre-flop regardless of a pre-flop raise.
Now, let's say you hold TT against 5-6 players and the flop comes 9 high rainbow. I assume I bet/call, but should I raise? Am I really just hoping for trips here, and folding otherwise if there is significant action?
I realize the answers here probably depend greatly on position and the type of players at the table. Any advice or insight on this situation would help me a lot.
Thanks, Eddie in San Diego
Eddie:
I usually raise TT UTG and on the button--I will also raise in the cutoff spot if I feel the button is a weak player and will fold--otherwise I limp in--you're right there are many hands that can beat yours--be prepared to fold to action w/ overcards--you must raise if the flop comes 9 high--LL players w/ an A won't fold but weak kings and queens usually will--If you raise on the button and the flop comes w/ overcards bet the flop plan to check both the turn and river w/o improvement I usually call the river bet w/ 1 overcard and only 1 opponent= this is a tough one
Eddie, you are right about the type of game depending on what you do with these hands. In a game that is tight, especially if passive, I tend to raise with these hands. These are the type of games in which raises tend to thin the field. I think that raising wit the hands you mention should be done to narrow the opposition. Another advantage in raising in tighter games is that you gain some information. Anyone who calls probably has a pretty good hand and you need to be cautious if overcards flop.
In looser games, I tend to play these hands more as drawing opportunities looking for trips on the flop. If you have 4-6 players seeing every flop even if the pot is raised, this is a perfect opportunity to play these as drawing hands.
Having said that now though, I seldom raise with 9's unless the game is super-tight. There are just too many flops that can beat you. I almost always raise with jacks unless the action before me indicates some strong hands are out.
Eddie,
I second the comments above regarding it varies depending on the game texture. With 99 I would probably call no matter where I was as long as there was no raise in front of me, then I might fold. But with 10-10 and (especially) JJ, you want to usually raise if you are in early position in a typical loose low limit game. In this type of a game, a lot of people will call a single bet with any Ace, and some of them with any King either, regardless of the kicker. There is over a 50% chance that an overcard to your jacks is going to fall on the flop. Therefore, you want to raise in early position. That way everyone yet to act behind you is now forced to cold call a double bet. Someone with a single ace with a bad kicker will usually hesitate to do this, whereas they would have called a single bet in all likelihood. That way, if overcards to your jacks do hit on the flop, you won't have to automatically fold like you would have to if there were 6 or 7 people or more staring at it. If only one or two people called your raise, there is a better chance that no one paired the overcard on the flop. If you hadn't raised and twice as many people saw the flop, this is almost no chance. So you are raising to cut down people behind you who would pair overcards to your jacks or tens on the flop. With nines you could raise if you were under the gun and you were pretty sure everyone would fold behind you, but if not I would just call with this hand. I would raise almost every time in early position with Jacks, though, unless the game was full of maniacs who would call a double bet cold. On the button, I wouldn't raise, though, as was said before. I would only raise with these hands when your raise makes people call a double bet cold, and if a bunch of people have already called the blind, they will probably call one more bet too. So in that case I would just call. In summary, I would call with 99 wherever I was, and would tend to raise with JJ and 10-10 if I was in early position to drive single overcards out. On the button with all these hands I'd just call. -Tim
is TT a value raise pre-flop in late position?
Yes, especially if the pot is unraised on the button.
Or raise only if you can thin the field? You usually will not be able to do this.
I tend to just call TT pre-flop since,assuming someone in the field holds each of an A, K, Q, J, there are 12 outs for the rest of the table.
Anytime you believe your hand is the best, you should raise. Make your opponents with overcards pay BTF to beat you. Plus, you may hit a Ten to win a big pot.
Now, let's say you hold TT against 5-6 players and the flop comes 9 high rainbow. I assume I bet/call, but should I raise? Am I really just hoping for trips here, and folding otherwise if there is significant action?
I think you should raise once on the flop with your overpair. You should bet if your in early position. Beware of 3 to a straight or flush later in the hand.In addition to a set or overpair, you also can flop a str8 draw. If overcards hit without a set or str8 draw, then you can fold against mulitple opponents.
All these hands should definitely be raised in late position vs any number of limpers. Nines may be borderline in a game where the 'check-to-the raisor' concept is unknown (because you ARE taking that free turn card on a A-J-8 rainbow flop). However, if you aren't getting free cards on the flop, you are getting nice implied odds for the times you flop a set, or maybe the chance of cutting down the field by raising a late opening bet on a 2h-4h-8c flop.
Tens and jacks, I'd raise vs. any number of opponents in an unraised pot. These are profitable anyway. Against several opponents, you are getting a good price for either flopping the set or a complete rag flop without even any decent straight potential (2-3-9 or similar), something which will happen at least once in six times. The lesser number of opponents, the more chance you hand could be good against one overcard (usually, though, not against the dreaded Ace). Against two limpers and a call from big blind on your raise, Jacks will usually be good against AT LEAST one of the three overcards to this pair (problem is figuring out which one), and will win a lot of pots, with often only six overcards (or less) outs against it and two very strong re-draw outs.
I hear many people complain about their results with these three mid-high pocket pairs, but to me, they've been a very important and good money maker at somewhat tighter low limit tables (read: online and homegame) than you might find in Vegas. I still can't see how worse players can harm the strenght of these hands, particularly Jacks.
lars
TT might always be worth a value raise preflop, because it flops trips or an overpair 31% of the time.
Weather it's a value raise against 3-6 opponents is not that clear to me, but if they are ready to pay to see the turn - even the river - with their few outs, it still looks good enough to me.
99 makes it only 21% of the time and so is no raising hand to me in these situations. To me it's mostly a raise vs 1-2 opponents from the late position hand, as overcards are less dangerous then.
Eddie
I tend to raise with TT or 99 when I can limit the field to three players or less, but just call when I know it will be four or five. If it's going to be six or more, I will raise anyway, because of the additional value of flopping a set. JJ I tend to raise most of the time regardless, but will occasionally call when I KNOW it will be EXACTLY 4 players. When you flop an overpair and someone bets into you, you should almost always raise. You are now pretty much getting the best of it most of the time, and by raising, you make calls with overcards incorrect, but if you don't raise, they might be correct or almost correct. Try to drive players out with overcards if you can when you flop an overpair.
BTW, I live in SD. If you would like to meet, email me.
Dave in Cali
I am a 20 year old college student and I am trying to do some research for when I turn 21 next May. I have a Texas Hold 'Em game at college where everybody buys in for a mere $10, with 10 and 20 cent blinds, and the game is no limit (that's the only way we can get people to play.)
So I was wondering, when I do turn 21 what limit should I play in? I thought that $1-$3 was a limit but my friend says it's not. What limit should I play, how much money should I bring to the table, and what level of competition should I be expecting?
Halis,
Being a former college student myself, I know that disposable $$$ is kind of rare. My first question is (and this might be personal) are you paying for your college education? There's a huge difference in paying for your own tuition and board than if your parent(s) are footing the bill. I, myself, was fortunate enough to have parents who demanded further education and backed it up.
If you are supporting yourself, I would discourage you from playing in a casino setting until you graduate and lock down that career position. There's just too much that can possibly happen to put you on the wrong path (ie playing to make ends meet and skipping class). As you've probably heard many 1,000s of times (and I have too), that piece of paper is the most important goal. It's true and I'm sure most everyone on this forum would agree.
If you don't have to worry about supporting yourself, then this is a horse of a different color. If you don't have a part-time job (at least) again I would discourage you from going to the casino until after you graduate. I worked as a pizza delivery driver in college for 3 years and made excellent $$$. A job like this, or something where you're making $$$ in tips (bartender, waiter in a nice restaurant) would be pretty good to develop a small playing bankroll. Watch out for the campus jobs that pay minimum wage or $6 an hour, try to get one off-campus and nearby.
You'll probably get advice from the other esteemed posters on 2+2 about the size of bankroll needed to get started. Some will advocate 300 big bets or otherwise, pay attention to what everyone has to say about this. Opinions on this concept will vary greatly. My personal opinion is don't take more than you can safely afford to lose in one casino sitting and leave the credit/debit cards back at the dorm.
The smallest limit that you will probably find (depending on where you are located) will be a $2-$4 game. Most likely you'll be looking at a $3-$6 game which is fairly standard in almost all casinos I know about. Your competition again is going to vary, you'll be playing against a wide variety of opponents from tight old men and little old ladies to loose-aggressive idiots to solid players. The most important thing is to categorize the type of game you are in (loose-passive, tight-aggressive etc) and to play accordingly.
If you feel that you are in over your head or if the game is overly-aggressive, don't be afraid to find a softer game. Ask the casino board for a table change. You want to pick on the weaker players, especially if your casino experience is limited. I advocate going to the casino during daytime before 5:00 PM. You will usually find more passive players and older people playing on social security or pensions to try to make an extra $. By the time people get off from work, they will come for a few drinks and ready to gamble up. Find your niche where you feel most comfortable though.
The game will definitely be different than what your used to. The pot limit/no-limit game is really too small to give you an accurate picture of what you'll find at the casino. You can lose 4 times your dorm buy-in at the casino in a 3-6 game on one hand easily. If you play one hand from beginning to end with a bet on every street, it's an $18 investment in about 45 seconds. Be careful about the speculative hands, they'll cost a bundle.
Before even stepping foot in the casino, I would highly recommend that you invest about $50-$100 on a few HE books and study (not cram). I would recommend the Theory of Poker by Sklansky (can find it on this site) and learn about the mathematics of the game (odds, implied odds, pot odds, position, blind structure and defense, etc). I also would recommend Hold Em, From Beginner to Winner and A Winner for Life by Lou Krieger (see Conjelco link on this site). Krieger expands on all concepts Sklansky discusses in TOP. In addition, the book provides a starting hands chart and discusses position and game type thoroughly. These books will pay dividends and give you a return on your investment many times over. Be on the lookout for others that the forum posters recommend.
I hope that I haven't rambled on too long. Please feel free to use my email address listed for any other questions or concerns. Also, if you are in AZ, let me know. I'll go with you.
Best wishes and good luck, Mike
I read a manual called foolproof: 30 days to hold'em success. It's by Richard Allen. In his "course", he advocates using a little cheat sheet that tells you what to play and when to play it, how to randomize decisions, problems with certain hands like JJ or AK offsuit, and much more. This system leaves very little to the imagination and seems very boring, but it emphasises some very important points. Play only the best starters and don't cold call raises with anything but the highest quality of hands. If you can sit down in a game and fold hands for an hour straight without getting pissed off, you'll be fine. I suggest borrowing this manual from a library like I did. The sticker price on it was $49.95, and I thought Lee Jones's book was a better investment. Both of these are books are geared towards the beginning hold'em player and will give you an edge on the morons you will encounter out there. As for your buy in, I won't start with less than $100 in a 3-6 game. If you sit at a table full of people who will play anything, you should be prepared for some big swings. If you study up it will be easy to spot the good players. They fold a lot and have a large stack of chips in front of them. Good luck and don't play with scared money.
I'm pretty much in the same situation as you....I started playing holdem with my friends last year when I was 21. We took a trip to play in atlantic city and had no clue as to what we were doing. If you haven't read any books on the game, then I would strongly suggest you do so before venturing into the casino.
It's pretty much imperative that you at least have a general understanding of important concepts such as which hands to play, when to draw to certain hands, how pot size and the number of your opponents affect your play.
The first book I read was Winning low limit holdem by Lee Jones(which in hindsight I don't believe is very good). But I did learn important concepts about odds. I was amazed when I first read about things like comparing the bet size to the pot in order to decide if calling has a positive expectation in the long run.
Im sure your'e reading this saying f*** that, I wanna play now.....I understand, I was the same way, but trust me, you absolutely CAN'T beat this game with out learning these concepts.
Well here's a little list of things you can expect to happen when you play at the casino. Be prepared to
1. lose most or all of the money you brought to the table. 2. be yelled at by obnoxious players when they feel you have made a stupid play. 3. fight off boredom while you sit for long periods of time waiting for a playable hand. 4. have your straights and flushes beat by someone who made a full house with a shitty hand like 8-2unsuited. 5. go on tilt and start throwing you chips away after being beaten like this many times in a row. 6. get lectured about poker strategy from people who don't know what the hell they're talking about
Thats all I can think of right now. As for how much money to bring, I'd say about $100 for a 2-4 game and $150 for a 3-6 game (which I wouldn't suggest you be playing yet). Learn the structure of how the limit game is played and practice with your friends so you won't be totally confused when you get to the casino.
And now that I think about it, don't play poker, take up guitar or something....it's less expensive and less stressfull :)
Yes, I too have parents that are footing money for me to go to school (they pick up what my scholarship and loans don't cover.) To be honest I don't have a job, I'm taking 9 hours over the summer. But I've been thinking of getting one when I go back (despite my parents' wishes) for the specific reason of building a bankroll.
Anyway, I am in Missouri (St. Louis area) which should be okay when I turn 21 because I've heard that there is some Texas Hold 'Em over at the riverboat casinos in St. Charles.
I have already bought and read some books on hold 'em, I started out with Winning Low Limit Hold 'Em by Lee Jones, then bought Theory of Poker by David Sklansky, and I read that too but need to go over it about 10 more times. I also picked up Hold 'Em Poker For Advanced Players, also by Sklansky, but it won't do me any good until I get in a real game and get my rude awakening.
The game I play in is horribly loose-passive, I win so much that they let me buy-in on credit because they know I'll break even or win (how funny is that.) They've been funding my dating habits for a year now.
But ultimately I am desperate to get in a real game because I am learning jack right now, there's just no challenge in it.
One thing I do have going for me though is the fact that I am at least wise enough to fold A LOT without letting my emotions take over (so far at least.) I'll lay down AA if I have to without even blinking twice. What's more is I don't get upset and feel the need to show everyone at the table what I had to fold like some people.
But anyway, thanks for your input and I hope to see some more from everyone.
By the way Mike Norton, when you said a bankroll of 300 big bets, you meant total poker bankroll, not what I take to the table right?
I'm currently 21 years old, and I started playing casino poker when I was 18 (first at Turning Stone, than in Atlantic City when I realized that the age limit just wasn't that important there). The first time I jumped into a 3-6 game at Turning Stone after a cursory viewing of Rounders,I was absolutely destroyed. I had limited understanding of position and why I would rather play a hand like 9-10 than A7 in a multiway pot. I lost about $350, way more than I could afford to. This is a dangerous game, and it is a hobby you should not enter into lightly. Losing $200 on a bad day at 3-6 is like a drop in the bucket; if you can't afford to lose that kind of money in one sitting, DO NOT PLAY until you can. I currently play 5-10 and 10-20 at the Taj, and my playing bankroll is slightly over $2000. I would NEVER touch that bankroll for any reason (hot girl you wanna take to a nice dinner, car payment, spending money are not good reasons). You need to build ur bankroll, read HPFAP 10 times, and think about the game a lot. If you are going to play 3-6 regularly, I would get a part time job and build a bankroll. Scared money is an obvious tell, as is someone who doesnt know the mechanics of the game (blinds, etc). Know your stuff before you get in action. Good luck and email me with any questions.
Jeff
i tossed my copy of jones in the trash as soon as i read some 2+2 books. you should too. imho, the "loose games" section of hpfap is superior to jones in every sense for low-limit hold 'em games.
i haven't read krieger in detail, but i did almost puke while flipping through "hold 'em excellence" at the bookstore. hence, i would not recommend it unless you accidentally swallow poison.
you may want to read hold 'em poker by sklansky. it's less dense than hpfap and top, but the core concepts of winning play are there. the hand reading section alone should pay for the cost of the book in a matter of a week or two.
Look if you’re into total comprehensive theory read David/Mason. No one disputes that their writings on theory are the Bible. If you want to know the basics of how to handle common hands when at a learning to play in a casino read Jones. Additionally the latest version of Wilson’s Turbo Texas Hold’em with the loose lineup and Howie as advisor will give you practice in decision making against what is a comparable lineup to what you find at weak 2-4 and 3-6 here in Las Vegas. Time at the table learning to recognize what’s happening is the first hurdle your going to have to overcome in what will hopefully be a long and successful poker career. Having the initial reflexes down should give you a major jump-start. Once you establish a feeling of being in control of the low limit games in which you play David and Mason will put you into afterburner towards success in the bigger money games
well, heres what i think you should do.
first of all, jack up the stakes in your home game. this is mandatory. if you cant do that overtly, try to do something that will get more money into the game (maybe dealers choice where others (not you) can really gamble and shove their money in and have to rebuy, i dont know.)
second of all, borrow about 2 grand from your dad. you can do it. if youre really a poker prodigy then its a done deal. (worst case scenario: 'dad, i got ---- pregnant ...')
now that youre on a freeroll, its time for the casino. if they have small tournaments, play in those for a while to master all the casino stuff like protecting your hand, following the action, etc. anything you dont know, be sure to ask. otherwise, the first two or three times you go, only take like 80 or 100 bucks, play the lowest limit, and if you bust out in 5 minutes, just watch the game for a while.
your gonna lose. everybody loses. its how you handle this that will determine your cash flow. i would take 300 (you have no experience, so a stop loss is pretty mandatory) and jump into what you think is the best game you can find, regardless of the limit. play the best you can. get up and leave when you start to think about leaving.
you have a very good chance of blowing through all 2000. a very good chance. dont delude yourself.
brad
p.s. as a new player youll get a lot of action. so play super tight. dont play really any cards in early position. throw away your blinds almost always (because you cant really expect to be able to overcome positional disadvantage when you dont have a lot of experience). also i would *not* play below 4/8, and probably not even below 6/12.
Hi gang,
Here's a question for all the 2+2 gurus having to do with pairing the board on the turn. I sometimes run into problems about overplaying my hand in this position.
To make things a little easier to understand... let me create this example for you. Let's imagine you're in a loose-passive game where none of your opponents are known to you in great detail (maybe you're visiting a different cardroom). You're on the button with a hand like K-J suited and get 4 limpers to you. You can call (or raise) and take the flop 6 or 7 handed.
Flop comes something like KT4 rainbow.
It gets checked to you and you bet your top pair, decent kicker. 4 people call behind you and take the turn 5 handed.
Turn comes another T.
It gets checked to you again. Here's the dilemma... do you bet again and hope that your hand is good? Or do you bet intending to fold to the all-too-familiar check-raise situation? Or do you check behind them and pay off a bet on the river to the possible bluff if nothing threatening comes?
What kind of things does everybody take into consideration before deciding to bet or check? How much competition (how many players on turn) would entice you to bet again rather than give the free card and avoid the check-raise?
Would the consideration of betting be more of an option if the flop came J63 rainbow and a 6 came on the turn? How high a rank should the pair on board be before you become concerned with someone having trips?
Thanx in advance for your responses, I look forward to reading and getting some better ideas.
Mike
4 people call the flop bet + low limit = someone must have a ten
Yet if it is checked to you again on the turn, I would consider betting for the fact that most low limit players will not be overly tricky. If they had the trips they might be afraid you would fail to bet and would not be able to checkraise you. If you bet and are raised, you can make an easy fold.
On the other hand, if you think you are playing against people who are capable of checkraising you in that situation you can check and possibly induce a bluff on the river.
Thats just my opinion, but i could very well be wrong since im pretty new at this.
This is a very complicated situation. It is very much dependent on the individual situation. What card paired, how many players, what type of playes, what the river can do to you, is there a flush or straight coming?
I would lean towards the check/call strategy. You lose the same amount when you lose, but you get to see the T in someones hand. But you win less when you win. You can't just make a rule, you need to take it on a case by case basis. If you are playing against very tricky players I would also tend to check because I don't want someone bluff-check raising me out of the pot, although that may not be much of a concern at low limits.
The answer is, as always, it depends.
I see three:
1. On the flop and turn one bets, as free cards kill, especially with a nice size pot.
2. When a possible big hand is checked to you, you usually bet.
3. When there is little chance that someone is not holding a better hand, one checks.
So it's 2-to-1 for the bet (gross). If you check the turn and call on the river, you lose "1" (minus your 2 outs). If you bet-fold on the turn, you lose "1". So betting seems better.
I'm playing in a loose-passive 6-12 game. A loose/weak player limps UTG, next player folds, I limp with KJo, then a tight player raises (from middle position). Only the BB (an average loose-passive player) and the UTG limper have called when the action returns to me. The tight raiser respects my play and probably would not have raised with less than JJ/AK. If the raiser and I were equally skilled in post-flop play, would calling his preflop raise have a positive EV?
I limped with KJo because most pots were not raised and the game had a few players who routinely played trash (e.g., 69o, 82s, etc.) for one bet but not two. Was this a mistake?
I don't like playing KJo too much from early position. If you are getting a lot of players in pots, you are basically drawing to make a pair (or possibly a straight) In this type of game if an Ace appears on the flop, you are prolly going to have to make two pair to win. If you were in late position you would throw away this hand to the tight passive player. Calling KJo after making one bet isn't a bad play, the real mistake was limping in with it in the first place.
I believe limping with KJo in this situation (i.e., loose-passive game with some very poor players) is marginally profitable in a dead button collection game (as played in LA); it may be a mistake in a raked game.
Well, you shouldn't be happy about it, but I think you have to call for one more bet. (I won't give you the speech about the dangers of playing KJo, you knew the table and made the call). If you flop something proceed with caution and try to find out if you have a loser while the betting is cheap.
Here's a recent hand from a Paradise $2/$4 game:
I'm in the small blind with Q8o, two weak players limp in (UTG and middle position), I call half a bet, and the big blind checks.
The flop comes J96, two suited. I bet, hoping to pick up the pot right there. BB and UTG call, MP raises. I put him on a flush draw and reraise. My plan here is to get heads up with MP so that I can steal the pot if he doesn't make his flush. BB and UTG fold, MP caps it (not part of the plan!), and I call.
The turn is a 10, third suit, making my straight. I check, MP bets, I raise, MP calls. Once again, Brunson's advice to always bluff with outs pays off.
The river is a blank, I bet, MP calls. I show my straight, MP mucks but tells me later he flopped top two pair.
So, even though my plan backfired, things turned out in the end. Setting aside the outcome, though, does anyone have any thoughts about this play?
Pre-flop play: Understandable, half a bet, marginal call, i would have folded. but I would have had to play with the competition to make this call.
Flop play: Horrible. You are betting to pick up the pot right there?? You won't, period. Two things: 1) Two overcards, & JT - AT are definitly staying in. 2) Since this is $2-$4 Hold'em, any 6, any 9, any J, any inside straight draw any flush draw, any runner runner flush draw is staying in. Ok you put him on a flush draw, and you hope to steal the pot if he doesn't catch? 1) If he catches any pair you are beaten. 2) If he catches his flush you are drawing dead 3) How positive are you that he has a flush. When he caps the pot, you should know you are dead. 4) Lets say you are right and he is on a flush draw and you make your straigt and he makes his flush, now what?
Turn: You got lucky, check-raising an agressive player is fine.
River: Betting out is fine.
You got lucky. Flat out, you may be too agressive and you may be trying to bluff too much. At $2-$4 paradise the games are too loose to be trying these maneuvers, people are going to call you to the end just to "keep you honest".
at $2-$4 you should be more concerned with starting hands and position then straegic plays. Good luck!
" Flop play: Horrible. You are betting to pick up the pot right there?? You won't, period. Two things: 1) Two overcards, & JT - AT are definitly staying in. 2) Since this is $2-$4 Hold'em, any 6, any 9, any J, any inside straight draw any flush draw, any runner runner flush draw is staying in. "
WRONG ;-)
Q: Last night in the 50-cent-game - how many hands out of 100 do you think were won unseen !
A: 35 !
PS I wouldn't bet the flop thoug.
then odds are, it is one.
You will lose your bankroll VERY fast if you play like that.
Pre-flop is marginal. I think the EV is close to 0, so I like to fold it to save some variance, but if you play it properly then I guess it's alright. But again, *I* wouldn't play it.
On the flop, betting to win the pot right there is TERRIBLE. Unless you know your opponents very well you should just check/fold. If you really believe you have a chance of winning then betting if fine, but when you are raised don't put him on a flush draw, put him on top pair (at least). Too many people who know the "raise the flush draw for a free card" move think anyone who raises on the flop must be on a flush draw. Generally a player who raises on the flop has top pair.
Anyway, after he raises you are only getting 7-1 to call with the gutshot. Just fold. With a two flush on the board and only one player, you can make it and lose, and even if you make it and win, your implied odds just aren't that good. And most of the time you won't make it. I guess when you re-raise and he caps you are getting 11-1 for the last bet, so you can call, but don't be happy about it. You are in an awful situation.
After the turn is straightforward, but don't think you played the hand right just because you won.
When people talk about pushing hands when you have outs they are generally referring to good outs that will probably win you the hand. (Maybe a nut flush draw).
If you lose your bankroll don't fall into any of the paradise conspiracy theories. You already know the reason.
Guess I better go back on the lithium :-)
Of course, I don't always play this way, or I wouldn't have bothered to post the hand. Something just came over me, I decided to try a kamikaze move. If I'd've lost as much as I deserved to, it would have been easy to say "Note to self -- stop doing that!" Since I won, I started coming up with post facto rationalizations for why it was actually a good idea. Thanks for setting me straight.
I think you should have folded pre-flop. Q8o is trash. However, it's not the WORST SB call ever, just a sub-marginal one, IMO. Your flop bet is pretty speculative, to say the least. Thinking that you will pick up the pot when there's a two-flush and several possible str8 draws when you bet into three opponents in a 2-4 game… You get my drift? Reraising is insane, you must be a maniac. Well, maybe not a complete maniac, at least you had SOME outs. Your outs were few and far between though, a queen was by no means a guaranteed out, and only three of your str8 cards DON'T give someone else a possible flush (or a flush-redraw). Not the WORST play EVER, but I basically don't like it, I think you were –EV and just got there anyway.
So, tonight, I get KTs in middle position. It's folded to me, I call, it's folded around to the button, who calls, SB folds, BB checks.
The flop is KT7, two suited. BB checks, I bet, button folds, BB raises, I reraise, BB caps it, I call. Hmm. When he check-raised, I didn't believe him (just from having watched him play for an hour or so), but now I'm worried.
Turn doesn't look interesting. BB bets, I call.
River the same. BB bets, I call.
BB shows a backdoor flush (he had zero on the flop). I muck.
In case anyone was wondering, you do indeed reap what you sow :-)
I'm in a fairly loose, VERY passive $5-$10 game. The SB is completely unknown to me, he just sat down 20 minutes earlier and hasn't played many hands. The BB is the most solid player at the table, the two limpers are weak calling stations.
I am late with Js Jd.
Two weak limpers, I raise, the SB cold calls, the BB 3 bets (this scares me), the first limper calls, the next caps and mumbles "it's going to get capped anyway, so I might as well do it". I call, the SB, BB and first limper call. We take the flop capped 5 ways, 20 sb in the pot (minus 1 of rake), 19 sb in the pot.
The flop is Ac Jc 6c.
The SB bets out, BB raises, limpers both call, I 3 bet, SB calls, BB caps (I think I am dead against pocket aces now), limpers both call, I call. Still 5 players 39 sb = 19.5 bb in the pot.
Turn is 8d.
SB checks, BB bets, limpers fold, I call, SB calls. 22.5 bb in the pot. I think I am dead, but the pot is too big to fold and he'll have to show me his aces to win.
River is 2c. (4 flush on the board).
Now the SB decides to bet out. The BB looks at his cards long as hard and mucks it, but he's not happy about it. The action is to me, I am getting 23.5 - 1. I convince myself there is NO way I have the best hand and I muck. Everyone at the table is disappointed.
I spend the next two hours thinking that I'll win that hand 1 in 24 times.
The SB takes down the big pot and leaves the table. We never see his cards. The BB had pocket aces.
Comments on this hand?
Tom
This is a rough hand. I think I would have made a crying call on the river after the BB folded. Though you will lose most of the time, there is the slightest chance your hand is good and the pot is enormous. The SB may think his only chance of winning is to represent a flush into what he sees as two tight players for example. If the BB calls, then I think you have an easy fold. Also, you neglect to mention that you could be trailing to a flopped flush on the flop. I like your read of the BB and your deciding to just call him on the turn. Tough hand, get him next time. Remember the river is not the time to be making big laydowns in this game...JMHO.
Jeff
You should call, not because you will win 1 time out of 24 (which you probably will), but because it will help you sleep at night.
"I spend the next two hours thinking that I'll win that hand 1 in 24 times. "
no way. youd have to have astrological guidance to overcome the astronomical odds.
brad
IMO, the SB would not have taken that much heat without a club, so the laydown wasn't THAT bad. However, you didn't know him, and sometimes players make real stupid plays, and the pot was huge, so you probably should have paid it off anyway. As you said, you will win the pot 1 in 24 times.
"I spend the next two hours thinking that I'll win that hand 1 in 24 times."
Maybe - maybe not !?
CryCalling 1 big bet on the river can't be that bad !
Hi all,
I just played a hand on Paradise at the $3-6 level that was pretty funny / interesting.
I hadn't played a hand yet and was in the big blind with 4d6d.
UTG called next raised fold, fold, call, call, call (button), sb folded. Do you call here getting 11 to 1 (assuming UTG doesn't reraise?)
right or wrong I called hoping to flop a straight or flush draw.
flop is 9s3s5c.
I check. Would anyone bet here? I assumed I'd be raised if I bet so I wanted to draw for as cheap as possible to a straight with 6 clean outs (although if a 7 comes it's not the nuts but I'm not too worried about 86 being there)
original bettor bets, cutff calls, I call, UTG calls.
pot = 16sb
turn is 9s3s5c [2d] TALK ABOUT A PERFECT CARD!
I check, UTG checks, next bets, cutoff calls, I raise, UTG cold calls (probably a flush draw), bettor calls, cutoff folds.
pot = 15 BB
river is 9s3s5c2dQs completes a flush maybe.
Do you bet here?
I checked and it got checked around and I won. UTG had 44 and original bettor had KK.
After the hand, the original bettor started giving me shit about playing 46suited in the blind. I said I love good blind hands. He replies with a "would you play anything in the blinds?" I said "doesn't everybody?"
This hand put that guy on tilt and the table got very good for a while. Gotta love getting lectured. comments appreciated. Thanks,
Jeff Gomberg
I have no problem with your pre-flop play, as long as UTG is not very aggressive, and not likely to limp-reraise. The rest of the hand you played fine. I even like your comment at the end.
*
I have run into this situation more than once from the big blinds, and would like opinions on how to play it. Loose low-limit game at Canterbury. Typically 5 or more players come in every hand. I get K5o in the big blind and I get 4 callers + SB, so I check. Flop comes KJx rainbow. I am not going to bet this so I check it. By the time it gets back to me there are one or two callers. What should I do now? Initially, I tended to call the bet, hoping they were calling with a Jack. Lately I have been folding it under these circumstances. (I would much rather have someone raise before the flop so I could fold it and not be tempted by it). Do you think this is the correct thing to do, or is it too tight?
Personally, I would consider it a dead hand. You are beaten by virtually any K (K6 or higher) Maybe if you are getting a correct read on the players who are still left, and reading they only have a J (no two pair, no set) then you would want to consider raising them. I look at it this way, you are the BB, you are getting a free flop (yes you are paying to be in the BB, but you aren't putting any more bets into it, pre-flop), i assume you would muck K5o anyway, so if it misses, chuck it, and dont lose too much sleep over it.
However, if you can make a good read or are sure you are the only one with the K, there is some merit to raising.
I bet out on the flop and see what happens. If you get called by various players, I don't put them on much more than a draw or second pair. If I get raised, I can then call and barring improvement on the turn, fold.
Too many ways to get beat on this hand. Someone may call the flop sitting with KJ just to suck this guy and others in. I'd fold unless I had a good flush draw or K 10 offsuit or better.
Despite zuluking's objections, I think this is a viable strategy, and I often use it. There is really no easy answer to the original question, playing cheesy top pairs out of the BB in unraised pots is difficult no matter what you do. When you play it like David suggests, you usually get away from the hand pretty cheaply the times you are beat, but don't give out free cards the times you are ahead. If you bet and don't get raised, I would bet the turn again, but usually check-call the river.
We can never seem to agree Dave. I'll be in Vegas August 8-14....let's settle this thing! lol
??
=New player in Minnesota (Canterbury).
Newbie,
Checking and folding is not that bad of an idea with 5+ people in the pot. Odds are someone will be in there with a better K or a good draw. You are certainly minimizing your loss potential which is a good thing. On the times where your K does hold up as the winner, the pot will probably be small. I'd rather not pay someone off just for top pair.
Here's a couple of things that I personally do that might help your decision making.
1) If 3 or less players are in the pot, I bet the K. If you are beaten in this case or if someone has a good kicker with top pair, then you'll probably be raised.
2) 4+ people in pot, I check the K. If it gets checked around, I bet the turn assuming a non-threatening card comes (non-straight, flush, or overcard).
3) 4+ people in pot, I check the K. If it gets bet, analyze where the bet comes from. If it comes from the player on your immediate left you can fold knowing that you're probably beaten. If it comes from 1 of the last 2 people (especially the button) I would be more likely to take one off. In this case, knowing your opponents and their tendencies will help immensely. If you can correctly put a person on 2nd pair who will bet in late position when checked to, you might be able to set the flop check-raise up and clear the rest of the field. Anyone who cold calls 2 bets here will be on a draw or have a pretty decent hand. You might be able to see the rest of the hand for free if you have weak players.
Hope this helps some.
Mike
1) If 3 or less players are in the pot, I bet the K. If you are beaten in this case or if someone has a good kicker with top pair, then you'll probably be raised.
trips will slow play, two pair may just call, top pair with a decent kicker will call u down to the end.
2) 4+ people in pot, I check the K. If it gets checked around, I bet the turn assuming a non-threatening card comes (non-straight, flush, or overcard).
setting yourself up against slow players and giving people free cards for their flush/straight draws
3) 4+ people in pot, I check the K. If it gets bet, analyze where the bet comes from. If it comes from the player on your immediate left you can fold knowing that you're probably beaten. If it comes from 1 of the last 2 people (especially the button) I would be more likely to take one off. In this case, knowing your opponents and their tendencies will help immensely. If you can correctly put a person on 2nd pair who will bet in late position when checked to, you might be able to set the flop check-raise up and clear the rest of the field. Anyone who cold calls 2 bets here will be on a draw or have a pretty decent hand. You might be able to see the rest of the hand for free if you have weak players.
I understand your points, I just think you are simply playing a weak hand which shouldn't be considered.
with no raise preflop you're probably not facing AK so i would definately check-raise this flop. they will put you on two pair, call your raise, then fold to your river bet if they don't make a strong hand
< I was wondering why no one else offered this advice. If you check this around and someone in late position bets out, I'd check-raise this hand. That forces the other players to cold-call 2 bets. If anyone raises here you can safely muck your hand.
Many players will throw away a better hand in this situation. Of course, the turn and the river need to be played carefully based upon your "read" and strength of the remaining player(s).
Is this faulty logic???
Jeff Cooper St. Louis, MO
The best I've found is to check and hope the last player bets. You do not fear an overcard. Many people bet draws or weak hands here on the premise no one has a hand. If he/she does bet,I check-raise. If it's checked around, bet the turn. Bet the turn if you check-raised and one or two opponents remain. In the case you mentioned, you're fold is not out of line. You could call and bet the turn as a alternative. By the way, I would play this way with 2nd or 3rd pair with an overcard kicker also. You can't only check-raise with huge hands because your opponents will lay down when you do check-raise. This is a good way to mix things up.
i had not been at the table more than 5 minutes when this hand came up. was it a good laydown? should i have re-raised on the flop?
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Game #94367434 - $3.00/$6.00 Hold'em - 2001/07/23-21:51:57 (CST)
Table "Tautira" (real money) -- Seat 10 is the button
Seat 1: bigray (sb)
Seat 2: tommyz (bb)
Seat 3: ontheflop66
Seat 4: Bama Gambler
Seat 5: jonsnurse
Seat 6: jjf
Seat 7: tomtopdeck
Seat 8: Larry454
Seat 9: terry1
Seat 10: irtaw (button)
bigray : Post Small Blind ($1.00)
tommyz : Post Big Blind ($3.00)
Dealt to Bama Gambler [ Ah ]
Dealt to Bama Gambler [ Ac ]
ontheflop66 : Call
Bama Gambler : Raise
jonsnurse : Fold
jjf : Fold
tomtopdeck : Call
Larry454 : Fold
terry1 : Fold
irtaw : Call (button)
bigray : Fold (sb)
tommyz : Fold (bb)
ontheflop66 : Call
*** FLOP *** [ 2d 9c 7d ]
ontheflop66 : Check
Bama Gambler : Bet
tomtopdeck : Call
irtaw : Raise (button)
ontheflop66 : Fold
Bama Gambler : Call
tomtopdeck : Call
*** TURN *** [ 2d 9c 7d ] [ Jd ]
Bama Gambler : Check
tomtopdeck : Bet
irtaw : Raise (button)
Bama Gambler : Fold
tomtopdeck : Fold
irtaw : Winner (button)
*** RIVER *** [ not dealt ]
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $56.00 | Rake: $0.50
Board: [ 2d 9c 7d Jd ]
bigray lost $1.00
tommyz lost $3.00
ontheflop66 lost $6.00
Bama Gambler lost $12.00 [ Ah Ac ] (pair)
jonsnurse didn't bet (folded)
jjf didn't bet (folded)
tomtopdeck lost $18.00
Larry454 didn't bet (folded)
terry1 didn't bet (folded)
irtaw bet $24.00, collected $62.00, net +$38.00
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I think this is a good laydown b/c most of the time you will be beat pretty badly by a flush, straight, or two pair. This would be especially hard to call with the bettor behind you who could reraise.
After looking at my stats on irtaw, that player seems to play a lot of suited cards and the only questionable turn raise I saw him make was heads-up. I've seen him (or her) play Q2s from early position, 72s, and 59s which leads me to believe irtaw plays any two suited cards.
On the other hand, this is a pretty large pot and you have to be asking yourself if he would play something like KK w/ one diamond like this. Most low limit players would not make this move, but you never know.
You would have to at least pay 3 BB ($18) more to see if you had the best hand to win 11 BB. So if you are wrong about being beaten less that 27% of the time, it was a good laydown.
Just my 2 cents,
Jeff Gomberg
you said: "After looking at my stats on irtaw"
what is irtaw?
thanks for the responses, Bama Gambler
I would have definitely reraised the flop, and probably called them down with AA.
Why reraise the flop? On Paradise LL it is standard procedure for most to cold call raises with any pair. When you bet out on the flop he's thinking you have 2 high cards and hopes to make you drop with a raise. Or maybe he has the flush draw. In any event, you are ahead unless this joker has flopped trips. So reraise to protect your vulnerable 1 pair hand! Reraise to show extreme strength so they don't try any further monkey business. Remember the old saying: When you hear hoofbeats think horses not zebras.
I know it's tough to coldcall when the flush hits, and you have probably lost, but there are so many compulsive dreamers and bluffers on Paradise that if you know nothing about the player I think I would call them down. In real life I usually give players the benefit of the doubt until they show me they don't deserve it. On Paradise I tend to do the opposite. Also, KK or QQ is a real possibility here, since you showed weakness on the flop he would play these two hands the same way. Even if you lose, show your aces and let them know that you raise with the best and won't be pushed off a hand. This has some value in itself since this is early in the game and there are so many bluffers playing this limit.
Good Luck!
i think i should have re-raised on the flop. this may have helped my turn problems. but given that i didn't raise on the flop i think the lay-down was a good one.
Bama Gambler
irtaw is the player who raised on the flop and turn.
How do you gather that sort of info on players? Is there a software program or did you develop one?
you will get much better responses on the forum if you summarize rather than post the entire hand history.
for example:
I got pocket aces in early position and raised one limper. there was a late cold call and the button called, both blinds folded, the limper called, 4 players. Flop was 9 7 2 with two diamonds. checked to me, I bet. The limper folded and the rest called. The turn was the Jd. I checked, the late cold caller bet, the button raised, everyone folded, the button took the pot without showing.
That small amount of text replaced about 50 lines of hand history you posted. Many posters here won't bother with long, cumbersome posts, and your post had no real reason to be very long.
I suspect you were beat, and saved money by folding, but I would resist the urge to check the turn when a third flush card comes. you should usually bet, then fold if raised (unless you had the Ad). Don't give out free cards.
Dave in Cali
x
never fold aces. just keep betting and raising at every opportunity. if you think you're beat, just pretend like it was a no limit games and you already pushed your stack in preflop and keep betting and raising
im playing the 2.50-5 game at the hollywood in aurora illinois last sunday... pretty different level of play than im used to playing against in the last 7 months in L.A. i pick up KK in 2nd UTG, UTG folds, i raise, my left calls, all else fold to BB who calls. flop comes Q53 rainbow... BB checks to me, i bet, my left raises, BB folds, i call. turn is K. (no flushes...) i check, my left bets, i raise, he calls. river is a 5. i bet, he raises, i reraise, he reraises back, i reraise again, he reraises, and i know i am probably beat, but i am not going to throw away kings-full for that last bet, so i call. sure enough he turns over 55. did i lose 2 big bets more than i should have? 3? 4? 5? id like to hear your opinions on this one.
I would play it exactly the same way. You have to pray that he has QQ or 33 on that last call. I've played against many morons who would play 33 that strong.
tough one,
Jeff Gomberg.
Depends on what you've seen this guy do previously. In the absence of good information, I'd call the four-bet and not feel too bad about the extra bets I lose if the boat holds up.
unless he is a complete moron, you definitely lost two more bets than you should have. I don't think the reraise on the river was out of line though, but against all but the dumbest magoos, you should not have gone to five, because at that point you are OBVIOUSLY facing quads.
Oh no...I agree with Dave!
i think i agree with dave. almost... dave, im used to playing at the bicycle and the commerce. as you well know, these are places where the 33, the QQ, the 53, and the Q5 are all going to be playing it as agressive as this guy did with the 55. (he was justified, obviously, but not those other hands. possibly QQ, but not so many reraises). i hadn't actually seen the guy play yet. he was an old guy (shoulda been my first clue.) and i was playing at the hollywood, where you don't keep coming back unless you are halfway decent, or you'll lose over the long run... (shoulda been my second clue, at least hold off a bit until i know for sure what this guy is about, and how this game is working. this was quite early in the session). i think i possibly lost 2 more big bets than i needed to. it really bummed me out. i think it hurt my table image too, as people seemed to play better against me after that, and called me down more, unfortunately, despite my playing pretty tight (i could rethink my starting hands a bit more against this crowd) i didn't really catch anything to exploit this tendency to call me down. i ended up losing $200 this session. it kinda bummed me out, since i had improved my game A LOT since i had last played here. (only played hold em once at the hollywood. was a regular stud player, mostly because the lowest limit they had before i left was $5-$10 and i really couldn't afford/justify risking the kind of money you need to play right in that game.) i realize this is only 40 big bets, not too bad, i guess. and the cards really weren't 'hot' for me. but i can't blame it on that. i must recognize and deal with my mistakes. i played aggressively, but the problem was that these guys were too passive to read. id hit an ace on a flop with AQs, bet it the whole way, and get one guy who calls me down with AK. never raised once. i realize that i should use this information next time, too slow down and tighten up. but how do i go about playing tight aggressive against guys like this? he also called me down with a 9 high flop with a pair of sixes and i was betting 89s the whole way. its not like he was a rock exactly. more of a calling station. but i think the fact that i ended up betting agressively and people continued letting me bet their hands just irked me. they had no idea if i would stop if they raised, so it seems like they weren't playing sly necessarily, just missing raising opportunities. some tips please. i also had top 2 pair on the flop, but someone caught a middle flush, and i got called down on the end by a straight and a flush, no raises at all. the flush was last to act on the river too. problem here is, game selection is virtually nill, the other options being to drive to indiana and check out the games there (ive never played there.), play higher limits, which i can't justify right now, or quit playing. quitting is just not something i want to do. i can learn to beat these games too, im just flustered as to how to go about it. any suggestions? also, any comments on the hand above pre-river? thanks baggins
you can't read players that do nothing but check-call. Last night I lost the same way you did, I raised one loose limper with AQ, BB called, 3 way, flop was ace high, I bet the whole way, on the river the BB showed me AK. Nothing I could do, I had to bet my hand. I am sure he would have played any worse ace the exact same way, so most of the time, if we both flop an ace, I would have been ahead. I doubt he would have raised with two pair either, even if he hit his kicker on the turn.
On your original hand... When you DON'T have the NUTS, going past four bets is usually a waste of money, period. Reraising was a justifiable move, but when you five bet it, it was just plain foolhardy against almost all players. There are only a few complete morons who will go past four bets without the nuts, but you should not be one of them. You should only go past four bets with the nuts. It would have saved your image as well as your confidence.
I often play passively like that in shorthanded games against aggressive players. After a few pots losing to my top pair they play less aggressively. (Then I might leave the table.)
Just a beginner.
I think you lost two bets you didn't need to.
The important thing about this hand is that there weren't any straights or flushes possible on the turn or the river. If he was the type of player to overplay 33 or 53 or QQ he would have done it on the turn. The 5 on the river wouldn't improve his hand unless he had 55, or if he had 35 and put you on exactly KQ. And its real hard to put a guy that calls two cold pre-flop on 35.
If you thought he would play 33 or QQ the same way, wouldn't you think he would have put in all those raises on the turn? I would still bet out and reraise, but after his second raise you have to just call. In order for another reraise to be correct, you need to be about 66% sure your hand is best. You shouldn't be 66% sure after being raised on the river twice.
i'd keep reraising until all my chips were in the middle then slap down my KK and proclaim to have the nuts. then, when he turns over his 55, i'd run out of the casino screaming at the top of my lungs
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IMHO, I think you played the hand about right. I wouldn't have played it much differently and would probably have lost the same amount. After you feel that this guy is reraising you without fear, of course you need to worry about quads, but your second nuts looks pretty good. Your raises on the river also have to take into consideration who the player is. If he's really solid, then I'd be a bit more cautious, but losing 5 bets on the river with your hand here sounds okay with me.
I remember one time when I had the third nuts with a big pocket pair that I slow-played. On the river, there were possible quads and a straight flush. Some guy bet, I raised, he 3-bet, I 4-bet, he 5-bet, and I finally called, pretty much knowing that my full-house was probaly dead. Sure enough, he had the straight flush. This guy was a real jerk and forced me to expose my hand and then berated me (yes, he yelled at me!) for not reraising him back some more. Come on, I'm not that stupid. What an A-hole. At least he went broke soon after.
that's funny. the guy who had the nuts is telling the loser that he should have raised more. thanks for the opinions all. i am realizing that i need to reevaluate my game and figure out where my leaks are. preflop play is kinda shaky. mostly becaues i was used to loosening up a bit out in L.A. because the players there were so notoriously bad i could get away with loose preflop play because i could far outplay them after the flop. this is not an exageration. i guess i didn't even think that a low limit game somewhere else would be any different. in fact, the one time i played 5-10 there, the table was almost exactly like a typical SoCal low limit table. i am rereading HPFAP for like the tenth time now, and relearning how to play against players who actually play tighter and know something about the darn game they're playing. and i think its helping. i got used to seeing the flop as cheaply as possible unless i had AKs AA KK or QQ in L.A. even though correct strategy against better players is to almost always raise when entering a pot voluntarily preflop. this rule should help a lot. it should take care of preflop play a whole bunch. i mean, if i can't raise with it, why should i play it?
What do you guys think about these hands (all in a normal $3-$6 game):
1) Th 7d in the BB. MP limps, LP limps, LP2 checks (he posted), SB calls, I check. Flop is Tc Ts 4c. SB checks, I bet, LP2 calls, SB calls. Turn is 5c. SB checks, I bet, LP2 calls, SB raises, I call, LP2 folds. River is 9h, SB bets I call.
2) Ac Qd 2nd to act. UTG folds, I raise, MP calls, blinds fold. Heads up. Flop is Tc Jd Qc. I bet, MP raises, I call. Turn is Ad. I check, he checks. River is 3d, I check, he checks.
3) Ac Td in the BB. MP open raises, I call we see the flop heads up. Flop is Ah 5d 6d. I bet, he raises, I call. Turn Jc. I check/call. River 3h checked through.
How should I have played these any differently? I didn't really know any of my opponents.
In the future, I suggest that you post each hand in a seperate post. That way the response can be more focused.
On the third hands, unless the raiser is a very loose raiser, I would fold before the flop in the BB with ATo.
1.) I don't have much of a problem with how you played this, but in a typical $3-6 game you could probably save yourself a BB and throw away your hand on the river. A typical player will not raise you with anything that your hand can beat in this situation. I could see a tricky player representing a flush with his slowplayed trips, but in either case you are beat (if he has trips you are likely outkicked).
2.) You definitely should've bet the turn. If you are raised, you can consider folding, but I think nine times out of ten by betting you will either be charging his flush draw or betting the best hand (since you now have top two pair). Once again on the river you should've bet, especially when he showed weakness by checking the turn. I'd wager few BBs that he had clubs...
3.) Personally, I would've folded to the raise preflop, simply because you need to flop two pair or better to feel comfortable about the strength of your hand. (this will happen about 2% of the time i think). More often than not, you will have to fear domination throughout the whole hand and be unable to take control. I think you will be up against hands that dominate you (like AK, AQ or AJ) too often to make this call profitable.
Just my two cents....
-----Jeff in MA
1.) I like the way you played this, except for the call on the river. After the check-raise on the turn, you're pretty sure to be wa-a-y behind; after the river bet, you're even more sure. Let it go.
2.) Raise the turn and see what happens. If he comes back at you, you should probably get out (maybe not, but you indicated you don't know these folks, so you have to work on the assumption they're playing it straight). If you're called, check the river. The check-check that occurred on the river leads me to think you probably would've won on the turn if you had raised.
3.) It's either gutsy or foolhardy (your choice, I'm trying not to be judgmental here ;-) ) to call the raise with ATo against an unknown opponent. Once you made that decision, I don't see any major errors in the rest of the hand, although the weak ten is going to be a problem for the whole hand.
Interesting hands. Obviously, something about them made you question your play. I think you were smart to do so.
[1] You can only beat a bluff on the river especially since it looks like SOMEONE made the flush. Never-the-less you are supposed to call most of the time. Fold most of the time only when you know you're player, or you peaked at his (44).
[2] 3-bet the flop looked like your best option. Flat call if THIS player is very likely to bet the turn. Slow-playing out of position doesn't work NEARLY as well than when in position. Just called? Bet the turn representing only Trips. If he's got a full you get 3-bets and you get in at least one bet when he's got whatever he's got; such as KQ and a gut shot.
[3] MP is sure to have a better hand than you; toss this B4 the flop. The lousy situation you found yourself in AFTER the flop (where you had nothing but bad options and didn't know what to do) will happen frequently; thus supporting the notion of declining to play in the first place.
- Louie
1. I think you played this hand fine.
2. I would've reraised the flop, and led on the turn. He would raise the flop on any draw, and you don't want to give out any free cards. Also, you have a lot of redraws even if you are behind. If he has clubs, you have redraws to the nut flush. If he has a straight, you have redraws to broadway, and when your ace comes on the turn you have full house redraws. I think you missed bets here. I also would have bet the river. If he had a straight or a diamond draw he would have bet the turn.
3. Unless the MP is a loose raiser, I probably wouldn't have called. I like to check-raise the flop heads up with top pair so-so kicker. If he three bets, I call and check-fold the turn if I don't improve.
Hi.
I'm playing $2/4 on paradise. I'm on the big blind with KK, everyone folds to the cut off who raises. This looked like a steal to me. Also, earlier on, he or she raised late position with KQo, with two limpers. Anyway, small blind calls, I reraise, and the original raise caps it. Small blind calls, I call. Flop is A46 rainbow. Small blind bets, both of us fold. Did I do the right thing or did I play like a little girl?
With no reasonable draw out there the SB needs an Ace or considerable cahonies to bet into two raisers. Also, you are sandwhiched. Its a bad fold if you know the SB to be darelingly aggressive; otherwise sleep well.
- Louie
PS. You are SUPPOSED to play like a little girl most of the time. Try getting in touch with your true feelings. :)
i dont know how little girls play poker. if anybody out there does know... well, you should be ashamed for playing poker with little girls.
I think you did right, but I'm a relative beginner.
why does it seem like every time you get KK an A flops? ARRRGGGHHH!!!
Tough one here, but I think a fold is okay here. You don't want to call and then have the cutoff raise. That could easily get you sandwiched between two players with hands that are very likely to be beating yours. Calling the first bet (hoping cutoff doesn't raise) wouldn't be an awful decision to try to catch a king on the turn though. However, if you call and raising action starts, then I'd give it up at that point.
The other night in 3-6 HE I picked up ATs in BB. UTG - who had been very aggressive and lucky - raises - MP, Button SB and I all call. Flop is AT7 rainbow. SB bets, I raise, UTG reraises, button & SB call, I cap, all call. Turn is T I bet and all call. Turn K, I bet, UTG raises, I call. He shows KK :( You never know!
Typical $3-$6 game. Unknown opponents. 4s 7d in the BB. 4 limpers, sb calls, I take a free play. Flop is 5d As 7s. SB checks, I check, 1st limper checks (L1), L2 bets, L3 calls, L4 calls, SB calls. It's back to me at 10-1 for a call with my crappy pair. I don't like the 2-flush on the board. But, I decide 10-1 is good enough. Is it?
Turn is 4d. Now there are 2 spades and 2 diamonds, and I improved to an ugly 2-pair. The SB bets. Why would he do that? Would he do it with 1 pair? I decide there is a good chance I'm beat, but I raise to find out. Should I have just folded? Calling would be clearly wrong right?
L2 cold calls and the SB calls.
The river is the Ks. YUCK! I decide I'll check/fold. The SB checks, I check, and to my surprise, L2 checks? What can he have?
How should I have played it differently? Results to follow.
The SB had 67o. He bet the turn with his pair and open-ended straight draw. With 2 of 2 suits on the board I don't think I'd do that.
L2 wins it with A5 for a flopped 2 pair. He just check/called it the whole way. He deserved to be drawn out.
I sure hate losing 3BB with 47o. Could I have played it differently?
Good post. This is a tough hand. I thought the call on the flop was close, but I see others hate it. The turn raise seems automatic.
I am guessing that L2 was trying to get cute and slowplay but convinced himself that you or the SB hit a str8 on the turn so he just cold-called and checked it through. I hate the way he played the hand. As Jim Brier would say "He obviously learned how to play poker in a forest".
OTOH, I don't much like the SB's flop call (for the same reason's I don't like yours) but I do like his bet out on the turn. It is a classic semi-bluff and it almost worked--you considered folding and a weak Ace might have folded too, thinking he has the str8. In situations where he does get called by only a pair of Aces he has many outs to win on the river. Its a bit dicey with the board 2 suited but overall I like it. Of course, on this hand he needed a str8 to beat L2 and you.
What you can do is never play second pair with bad position and a very coordinated board which has a card over T. If you do this often it is a major leak.
KJS
This was not a good choice of places to draw two a five outer for two pair. The two flush and the multiway field make two of your five outs very likely to make someone else a flush, so really you are taking one off to draw to three outs, not five. Add to that the fact that your two-pair cards may very well complete someone else's str8, and you have yourself a poor opportunity to draw to two pair or trips. About the only card you really want to see is the 7c or 7h, giving you only two clean outs.
Once you hit the two pair on the turn, you have to raise, but if you get reraised, what are you going to do? You don't know if he has a straight, a flush draw with a bigger pair than yours, or a just plain old better hand, like a set or two bigger pair. Add to this the fact that even when you hit your hand, there will be redraws against you, and I think you had a clear fold on the flop
Dave in Cali
With a rainbow flop do I have an easy call?
The odds of hitting a 5 outer on the turn is 8.5:1
You should be very sure you can bet and raise and win the pot if you hit your hand to continue.
KJS
No. the reason is that your two pair cards may make someone else a straight. if you had 47 and the board was K 2 4 rainbow, your two pair draw is MUCH better than if the board is 7 A 5. Do you see why? Hitting a four could make several possible straights. If there is a two flush as well, the second flop is suicidal to draw at.
And KJS is right about the odds of hitting a five outer too.
why would you raise to find out where you are?
I think he SHOULD have raised the turn, but your point is valid, that raising to "see where you are" is NOT a good reason to raise the turn. you raise to drive out players and to charge draws the times they don't get there.
I have a pretty hard and fast rule for LL hold 'em. Don't check and call with second pair. If you never do it you are not giving up much, especially multiway when the top card is T or better. In this case you are certainly behind, a 4 could make a str8, a spade a flush, etc. etc. You are looking at maybe 2 clean outs max. Very very bad time to call.
Of course when you get lucky you have to raise to charge the draws extra but they will still call. You can now see why the flop call was bad. You hit your hand and you are still not very happy with it. There are multiple outs against you (spades, diamonds, kickers for the Ace pairs). When you find yourself in these situations its usually because you played your hand too far.
I also would have check-folded the river.
KJS
I would say that to have a 'hard and fast' rule (which I take as meaning absolute) is too strict. If your unpaired card is a non-ace overcard, if the flop is rainbow, and if your overcard is not likely to make someone a straight, I will take short odds (as low as 6-1 for a 9-1 shot) to look at the turn card. There are implied odds at work, but only in very specific circumstances.
A9s
Plays 1-3 take place in a +50 big bet session playing 3-6 at the Mirage. Plays 4-5 take place in and around Vegas.
Rate my play!
1) I like to call in early position with 78o. MP raises. I call. The flop is A7x. I bet, he raises, I reraise, he calls. The turn is blank--I bet he calls. The river is an 8--I bet he calls. I show my hand and he shows his QQ. He gets mad at me. "How the #*@( you know the 8 is coming?" I think to myself it's a better question how I knew he had no Ace. But I keep quiet as he gathers his chips and leaves.
2) I like to 3-bet my own big blind with 72o. MP has raised. I reraise and he calls. The flop is A7x (I am familiar with this flop). I check, MP bets, I raise, he calls. Turn is blank--I bet he calls. River is a 2. I bet he calls. I turn over my cards and he turns over AQo. MP took it rather well.
3) I like to raise UTG with 99. MP reraises. Some callers and I call too. Flop is xx5. I bet, MP raises, LP calls cold, I call. Turn is 5. My friend beside me has seen my hand and has openly told me in front of the rest of the table: "Ya you...you will be mucking now." I say "Quiet, I know what I'm doing." I check, MP bets, LP calls, I call. River is a 9. I look all timid and shy suddenly and I check. There is a flow of negative energy from my friend as he emanates the words "You piece of $#%@" mentally. MP bets, LP calls, I raise. MP looks upset but calls. LP also calls. I turn over 99 and hide behind the brim of my baseball hat while wearing a shit-eating grin the size of Texas. MP just sits there for a while as I hide. The dealer says "Ya you'd better hide" because we all know what this guy's going to turn over. Finally, since I want to play the next hand and forget this I ask "Do you have better?" He turns over AA, gathers his chips and leaves the table. I sit up and tell everyone "I am a lucky player! I am John Bonetti!"
4) I like to walk up to T.J. in the Orleans 20 seconds after he gets his ass kicked in his tournament by Men the Master and say "I'm a huge CFL fan! Can I get a picture?"
5) I like to walk up to Danny Negreanu in the Bellagio while he's playing $300-600 2-7 lowball triple draw and say "I'm John Bonetti". He didn't get it.
Play 1: not a bad read of his non-ace, but you overestimate the ability of low limit players to fold big pocket pairs. Not sure exactly what hand you put him on that either 1)he would fold, or 2) you could beat
Play 2: MP played like a wimp. He sucked out on you on the flop, however.
Play 3: The comment was made quietly to you and was, quote, "If you want to flush chips down the toilet, the washroom is just around the corner". As a side note, the flop was Q-7-5, ensuring completely that you were beaten. MP had been trying to run you down for the better part of 3 hours but had been calling you down rather than betting into you as he was here. His betting into you was a clear signal that you were hosed.
Play 4: It made TJ laugh when he may very well have beaten the crap out of us for asking for a picture after getting taunted by Men and busting out of the Orleans Pot Limit Omaha (Men in seat 10 limps in, TJ in seat 2 raises pot, only Men calls; flop K-9-6, Men checks, TJ goes all in, Men jumps up on his chair and looks around the dealer at TJ and announces "You dead!" and shows KK85 as he calls; the turn and river are blanks and TJ growls "I was dead?" and shows AA before storming off).
Play 5: I think the cops in Utah and Calgary heard this comment and thats why they hated you. Unfortunately Daniel was far too intelligent to understand what the heck you were talking about (I wish I could say the same; after a week in Vegas it almost made sense to me too).
1. You are aggressive player. Probably raise pre-flop with playable aces. No preflop raise makes your flop move transparent. How did you know the 8 was coming? 2. I would take well too, guys three betting 7-2o (usually) don't keep chips all that long. 3. Played hand like kreskin, comment though was very good for table image. 4. Death wish one. 5. Life wish 1A
Typical $3-$6 game. I get Ah Kh UTG. I come out firing, 1 early player (EP), the cut-off (CO), and the button (B) come along for the ride. The flop has a king, with a couple of ladies, one heart. I come out firing again, I manage to ditch the EP, no raises. The turn is a 9, not heart. Again I bet, CO raises, B folds, I fold.
Is there a better way to handle this situation?
"Is there a better way to handle this situation?"
Either don't fold, or check and call.
Is the CO a good player?? If so, you probably should not fold as while you are betting from the start, he now knows you have a pair of kings, so if he thinks you are a tight player, he will bet into to represent a strong hand. I think you should reraise here, at least to get information. If the CO is semibluffing, he likely will call here. Is the CO a bad/weak player?? Often, when I used to play at that level, people raise with worse hands. Your hand is pretty strong here, IMO. He may not even realize he is beat. I don't think it's that bad a fold, but I would not have.
I guess my thinking was that after I raised pre-flop, bet the flop and bet the turn, there is no way he raises without a queen or better. So I thought that by betting, I could find out "for sure" if anyone has a queen and save myself 1 BB by avoiding the river. I guess if I check/called the turn/river it only costs one extra bet and I get to showdown. If those queens were T's or lower I probably showdown the hand.
"So I thought that by betting, I could find out "for sure" if anyone has a queen and save myself 1 BB by avoiding the river."
This may be very true and I hope you didn't interpret MY response to mean you made a bad fold. Against many players, particularily at this limit, folding may be very correct. However, against sophisticated or creative players, it's not a cut and dry "I'll bet to see if he's got a queen and fold if raised,", situation. Good luck to you.
Kevin
I think you played it fine. It's hard to put him on a hand that you can beat at this point. The only possibility that you're ahead is if he's bluffing. At this point there is approximately 6 big bets in the pot. You're getting about 3:1 (assuming he'll bet the river on a bluff) in effective odds to call him down. With only 2 outs to improve you need to evaluate whether he's bluffing or not. You know the player better than me so you'll have to make this evaluation. But in general I think it's a good fold.
Sincerly, Andreas
I sit down in 2-4$ hold'em game at taj and within first five minutes i get pocket queens one off the button. Early position calls, middle calls, i raise, and big blind calls my raise. The flop comes ragged rainbow with an ace scare card. I know that many low limit players like to play with any ace and this makes me sad. Everyone checks to me and for some reason i get brain freeze and i check it instead of betting. Then the turn card comes which was a non-face card and the blind bets and i fold thinking he's got the ace with no kicker! (What could have come over me!).
After thinking about how a mangled this hand and likely gave away a raised pot i think i should have bet the flop hoping that everone would check the turn so that i could then check behind them. Then, if someone bets the river (assuming it's a blank) i could call and hopefully snap off someone betting second best pair since all the cards on board were below my queens. By not betting the flop i gave away too much information and set myself up for further bad decisions.
Fortunately after sitting at the table for a while and warming up, i played relatively mistake free (as far as i know?). Anyway, if i had bet the flop and someone bets the turn do i then dump it? Thats probably not enough information i know, but any opinions or comments are welcomed. Thanx.
IMO, if you raised pre-flop, and bet the ace on the flop, if someone bets into you on the turn, you are almost always beat. Fold. You might give up a pot once in a while, but it will save money in the long run.
"After thinking about how a mangled this hand and likely gave away a raised pot i think i should have bet the flop hoping that everone would check the turn so that i could then check behind them. Then, if someone bets the river (assuming it's a blank) i could call and hopefully snap off someone betting second best pair since all the cards on board were below my queens."
Now why couldn't you have come up with this during the hand? I agree that with an ace already out and one overcard to your queens, your (afterthought) wouldn't been a good play. However, checking the flop may not have been as bad as you think.... As long as you CALL the turn!! Good luck..
Thanks guys. Woulda, shoulda, coulda . . . oh well. Tom, I like your tip about dumping on the turn when bet into after having bet the ace on the flop. Mojo's right though; i should have called him since i didn't bet the flop. I'll get it right next time. Thanks.
If you were last to act, you can check the flop, but you MUST call the turn. If you bet the flop, get called and then your opponent bets the turn, you can drop.
Calgary 3-6-12 game ~4am
Please post your answers and reasoning. I will post results later tonite.
1. You are in mid-position with KK. UTG calls. You raise. Everyone folds to BB who calls. UTG folds. Flop is 358 rainbow. BB bets, you raise, he calls. Turn is a 5. BB checks, you bet, he calls. River is a 4. BB checks, you bet, he checkraises to 24. Now you have observed that BB is a relatively tight player. He will bet at flops with nothing but a draw but rarely semi-bluffs the turn. Still he is relatively the most solid player at the 3-6-12 table. What is his most likely holding?
2. You are in second with AJo. UTG calls. You call. In fact, 7 people including the blinds call. The flop is J37 rainbow. It is checked to you and you check intending to checkraise. The same opponent as in #1 (LP) bets in late position. You checkraise. A weak-tight player in mid-position (MP) calls cold. LP calls. The turn is then 3-handed. The turn is a 6. You bet out. MP raises to 12. LP raises to 18. What are the two players most likely holdings, and what is your best course of action?
#1. I think he has either A-8. #2. Set over set. AJ is a distant third
#1. PRESTO! Meet Mr. Quadzilla.
#2. MP flopped a set.
Hand #1- The first thing that jumps out at me is that you might be playing a little too tight/predictable when players start folding to your raise, after already being in for one bet pre-flop.
Most likely holding? The obvious answer is 76s. But there are other hands which could have brought him to the river, but he now feels there's about a 50/50 chance he's beat and wants to use his position and the board to possibly knock you off a better hand. 77,66,TT,JJ,QQ are all possible hands. Of course he also could have a 5 or a full and thought this was the best way to collect the most bets from you.
Hand #2- Your best of course of action is obvious. FOLD. I don't think it's close. Most likely hands? A3s and 7's full. Maybe jacks full.
#1 - BB has 76s
#2 - get the heck out of Dodge.
For the first hand, I'd bet you were against 78
For the second hand, I think it is an easy fold. Weak tight definitely has you beat, and at least one of them has trip sevens or threes, leaving you drawing dead.
1. A5, 88, 76 in that order. I would have to know the player. Most would not bet out with a draw or top set but might with a pair, hoping you have AK and let them know that by not raising. Trickier players will bet the draw or set and then let you bet the rest of the way, popping you on the river.
2. Fold
KJS
Hmm, #1, tight player. 76? maybe, doubt it. AA? maybe. other overpair, possibly. 88 or 55? I like these. Tight player with 76 seems unlikely. Any other high pair probably would have brought a raise pre-flop. Most players will call with 88 pre-flop without raising. When you raised the flop, you said overpair. Now he can check and call to the river and then when the board pairs at the river, it makes your hand bigger indicating that one more bet is coming and cr is possible.
#2 At least one set and probably two pair. Course of action? look for a better opportunity later.
8-8 or 5-5 !
1. He has A5. Consistent with betting at the flop to see where you are at then waiting to check-raise on the expensive street.
2. Maybe the MP has JJ and the LP has 67 or a set. Neither one sounds like the type to play J7, nor raise the turn with AJ. I would toss my AJ into the muck.
sincerely, espo
1. If it were just 3-6, I'd say he made the 67 straight. This could be the case here, as well. Since it's 3-6-12, he could also have the 33 or 88 tight and waited till the river to pop it.
Either looks good to me. Even solid players defend their BB's with marginal holdings and no callers.
2. I would say you are facing 76 (probably LP) and either a set or JX (probably MP). One of them could have been getting fancy on the turn, but not both. You are almost certainly beat, and likely drawing thin to dead.
Eric
I don't think I would have bet the river on the first one, especially with the double size bet on the river. Presumably he'll believe you by now and fold a small pair. A good player will likely only call with a hand that beats you. Also, by betting you are setting yourself up to be bluffed out of the pot if you know you fold to the raise. Once you are checkraised though you pretty much have to call because a player like this will be trying a checkraise bluff often enough to justify the odds on the call. 4am at the Bow brings out some pretty fancy plays in some people.
My analysis of the two hands is as follows:
1. It's hard to imagine a solid player defending his blind with 33, 55, or 67 (although the probability of these is not 0%). No holding containing a dry 5 is very likely so he probably does not have trip 5's. 88 is the most likely hand for this player. In the hand played, I believed I was beat but still wanted to check what kind of hands this player would defend from big blind so I called the checkraise. I was surprised to find my opponent to have 62o for the straight. My estimation of this player's abilities quickly dropped.
2. The nuts on the turn is a 45 holding for the straight. Can MP be holding 45? He called a checkraise cold on the flop and is known to be weak tight. Even considering the large number of callers before the flop he is unlikely to regard 45 for pure gutshot as a strong enough holding to call with. Can MP then be holding 2 pairs? The board is J376. A possible holding for MP is 67s, although with a 2nd pair and an undercard the typical weak tight player will fold when faced with calling 2 bets on the flop. The weak tight player is capable of slowplaying a set on the flop and raising on the turn to shut out his remaining opponents. I believe that the most likely holding for MP is a set of 3's or 7's. A holding of JJ was likely to be raised before the flop.
LP is more likely than MP to be holding 45 (45s in particular). As already mentioned in #1 he will bet draws on the flop. Of course the LP is also likely to have a set of 3's or 7's.
Since we are probably witnessing a case of set over set or set vs. straight I would fold here.
In the game, I folded and MP called the 18. The river was a 2. MP bet, LP raised to 24, MP reraised to 36, and LP reraised to 48 and was called. I was surprised at the time to see LP turn over 45s for the nuts as I expected this to be a case of set over set. I am still surprised that MP also turned over 45s for the nuts as he called two bets cold on the flop with nothing but a gutshot. My estimation of MP abilities quickly dropped.
So far, noone (including myself) correctly predicted what the players actually had. Maybe the key factor in each of these hands really was "3-6-12 ~4am"
Recap of the problem:
3-6-12 game ~4am
1. You are in mid-position with KK. UTG calls. You raise. Everyone folds to BB who calls. UTG folds. Flop is 358 rainbow. BB bets you raise, he calls. Turn is a 5. BB checks, you bet, he calls. River is a 4. BB checks, you bet, he checkraises to 24. Now you have observed that BB is a relatively tight player. He will bet at flops with nothing but a draw but rarely semi-bluffs the turn. Still he is relatively the most solid player at the 3-6-12 table. What is his most likely holding?
2. You are in second with AJo. UTG calls. You call. In fact, 7 people including the blinds call. The flop is J37 rainbow. It is checked to you and you check intending to checkraise. The same opponent as in #1 (LP) bets in late position. You checkraise. A weak-tight player in mid-position (MP) calls cold. LP calls. The turn is then 3-handed. The turn is a 6. You bet out. MP raises to 12. LP raises to 18. After significant deliberation, you fold rather than enter the raising war. What are the two players most likely holdings and what is your best course of action?
Hand 1 - Tough beat. Given that you had this guy pegged as a decent, not terrible player, you could not have put him on 6-2o. And given your initial description, I think that's why none of the other posters guessed his hand. I can't think of a situation where it's even marginally correct to call a raise out of the BB with 6-2o.
Hand 2 - as you said, now you know for sure that both these guys are pretty poor players. I don't understand why one of these guys stopped raising with 5-4 for the nuts. They both had this, yes? Is there a cap heads up?
Caddy
I guess I could have said something to the effect that noone should expect their answers to match what actually happened in the game. All I was asking is what's the most likely hand, and what would you do about it.
If someone could manage to put the guy on 62o in the first hand, well, I don't know what to say.
I'm the BB in this 4/8 game (single BB). I'm dealt As4s. It's raised by UTG and 6 others call. Now it's my turn, I call. Flop comes Js 9s 5s - I've got the nut flush! YAY! I check. UTG bets. 5 calls. Button raises. As I grab some chips UTG goes to re-raise. I stupidly cease moving my chips forward and look at him. He waits for me before he acts. I call the double bet and then he re-raises. There's three callers and then I cap. The rest of the hand goes - I bet, they call, blank comes. I win. I'm thinking that had I only called the 3-bet on the flop, UTG would have came out betting if I check to him on the turn and then I can get a couple of callers there and then raise. And bet the river of course. I think I might have left about $50 on the table in that one hand.
What do you guys think?
-Michael
The way I see it, you could bet the flop and let the other guys cap it for you. Then check raise the turn (pray the board does not pair) and bet the river when a blank comes. Just my two cents. By the way, calling with AXs in another position without all the callers would have been a bad call imo.
JOE
Capping it was the right thing to do. With all that action i would think their was a set, or maybe two sets out there. When the pot gets big like that their is no good reason to disguise you hand any longer. Make them pay to out draw you. jim
hell yes cap it. when you flop da nuts and peope are jamming, go ahead and help em build your pot.
mike
Mike,
Im my opinion, you can't just make this statement carte blanche. If uncontrolled raising and calling gets the pot to be too big, then anyone with a set or 2 pair will almost surely have sufficient odds to pay for the cards yet to come.
Also, while the player has flopped a very strong hand is a favorite to win the pot, the flush is far from the nuts. It is only the best hand at that point.
So getting into a raising war may not be the best strategy. Someone with 2 pair on the turn is getting 10.5:1 odds to draw to the boat, and a set is getting even better odds.
So if the player with the flush pushes to get the pot too big, then he makes it profitable for other players to stay. The fact that they may have made a mistake by not seeing the flush and folding on the flop is no longer relevant at that point. The only fact that is relevant is whether or not people are making mistakes or good moves by paying to see the next card.
Sometimes it is a smarter play to try to control the size of the pot to make it incorrect for people with drawing hands to make a call.
I would tend to lead rather than check-raise, but you absolutely should get as much money in there as possible long as you have the current nuts. Every bet you get in there has positive expectation. Trips may well be getting odds to draw out on you, but he is not taking equity from you; he's getting it from the other players who are drawing thin or worse.
Student,
These players were raising and reraising the flop. A flop for which you held the best cards. I doubt these players care much about their odds for drawing to a boat. In a ram and jam situation like this, most of them have no idea how many bets are in the pot anyway. YOU should (as a winning poker player), but don't give low limit hold em players to much credit. Many wouldn't release a set if you told them during the hand that you held the ace-high flush and they weren't getting proper odds to see the turn and river.
Mike
AMEN!!! Very few low limit players will fold a set even if they KNOW someone else has flopped the nut flush. I say jam it unless the board pairs. They will stay until the river no matter what. Not all, but many.
I haven't read the other posts, but Holdem students post shows some gross misunerstandings. First of all, with a hand like the nut flush, one maybe two players have more than runner runner draws to beat you. Secondly, just because the pot is large enough for players to correctly call, does not mean you are not making money on each individual bet. That is, you are getting a ridiculous payoff on each dollar you invest in the pot even though your opponents have correct pot odds. So, keep the pot small in hopes of reducing the odds your opponents have to draw out, is very bad holdem. This situation applies in special cases, with hands that can be easily out drawn, i.e. QQ JJ. and generally have to do with keeping the pot small preflop.
I think you were right the second time. You get more money in with a check-raise on the turn. You would be letting a set see the turn for 3 small bet but you get to charge 2 big bets to see the river. Steve
In what was probably the largest pot I ever won (money wise, it was a 10-20 game), I flopped the nut flush just like you did, but I was in early position. I had limped in 2nd with Ac9c and it was eight way action, raised by the button (very loose aggressive), only the SB and BB folded. The flop was all clubs, king high. It was checked to me and I checked. The next player bet and the next raised. Two cold called and it was back to me. Here, I decided to just call and wait till the turn to make my move. These players were aggressive as hell and there was little doubt that it would get bet again. the turn was crap, exactly what I wanted (another club would likely kill my action, since I had the ace). I checked again and the original bettor bet again. All of them called back to me and I check-raised, only one folded. The river was yet another blank, I bet and they all called. Had I reraised the flop, I would have probably lost my opportunity to check-raise the turn, which made me about an extra 100$.
I think you should have skipped the cap here and just called, trying to raise the turn (which seems like it would have probably worked). Your hand isn't any more or less vunerable if you cap it now or wait till the turn, if someone has two pair or a set they are going to remain in the hand anyway, so you might as well make the pot as big as you can, which will probably be best accomplished by raising the turn.
Dave in Cali
Loose, passive, 4-8 game, with one maniac who is trying to run over the game with mixed success. 4 players limp to the maniac who raises in the cutoff. The button and the SB both call, and I take a look and find Kc Qs in the Big Blind, and call one more bet. All the limpers call ( 14 sb in the pot).
The maniac will play any connected cards, any two suited cards, any two above a ten, and nearly always raise whenever he plays a hand. Would anyone 3 bet in this situation?
Flop - Qd - 7s - 2c.
My first plan is to check to the maniac, and when he most likely bets, raise and try and eliminate much of the field. The small blind checks, I check, UTG bets, 2 callers, Maniac raises, small blind folds. UTG is a loose player and will lead with any top pair that he might hold, He will also probably raise preflop with AQ, so I think that if he has a Q, I'm probably ahead of him, and the Maniac will raise with any part of the flop. I decide to 3 bet, UTG makes it 4 bets, the two callers call, and the maniac also calls. Well, I'm pretty convinced that I'm behind the UTG player, perhaps even drawing nearly dead behind a set, but there are now 33 sb in the pot, so I'm pretty much pot-stuck, and even worse, I don't really know what it is that I'm hoping to see next.
Does checking and three betting in this situation seem OK? should I have folded the flop? I don't like the idea of playing this hand if I'm just going to call.
Turn - Ah
Well, on my list of favorable turn cards, that was pretty low. In my mind, I'm done with this hand. I check. UTG checks! The other three check.
The only thing that makes sense to me now, is that UTG had Q7 and he is afraid that on the lively flop action someone had a pair with an Ace kicker, and have now made a better two pair.
If UTG had bet the turn, and the action came back to me at about 20-1 do I call a Big Bet and hope for a king on the river? If UTG checks, and anyone else bets, I'm pretty sure that I have to muck because none of my 5 outs are clean and I dont want to invest two big bets here.
River - Ks.
Wheee! If my read on the turn is right, I must be in first place now. The action has pretty much eliminated the possibilities of AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, and if anybody called 4 bets on the flop with JT he's just going to have to spend some of my money. I bet, and get called in three places (eek). I show and win the pot. UTG shows me Q7 suited, and says 'you got it on the river'.
And I say 'yes' and think 'you let me get there for free'.
When I get home, I think 'this pot was slightly more than my session winnings', and I wondered if I should have even been there at the end.
Thanks for your comments, good luck,
Bob T.
I think you played it fine. Great hand! On a couple of your questions:
I think taking a look at a flop in this multi-way pot with KQ after a maniac raises is correct. I wouldn't have 3 bet, since it doesn't accomplish much.
I think check/3-betting the flop is fine with top pair/very good kicker. The pot is big enough to justify calling one more when UTG 4 bets.
A pretty wide range of hands to read when UTG plays Q7. Good job!
Good value bet on the end. If you can get a caller and two over-calls on the river, how can you not bet for value? Again, nice hand! Good luck.
i would have played this hand exactly the same way. depending on the type of player UTG is, i would probably fold the turn if he had bet out. well played.
mike
4 players limp to the maniac who raises in the cutoff. The button and the SB both call, and I take a look and find Kc Qs in the Big Blind, and call one more bet. All thelimpers call ( 14 sb in the pot).
The maniac will play any connected cards, any two suited cards, any two above a ten, and nearly always raise whenever he plays a hand. Would anyone 3 bet in this situation?
Usually it is best to call and check/raise the flop if you hit.
Flop - Qd - 7s - 2c.
My first plan is to check to the maniac, and when he most likely bets, raise and try and eliminate much of the field. The small blind checks, I check, UTG bets, 2 callers, Maniac raises, small blind folds. UTG is a loose player and will lead with any top pair that he might hold, He will also probably raise preflop with AQ, so I think that if he has a Q, I'm probably ahead of him, and the Maniac will raise with any part of the flop. I decide to 3 bet, UTG makes it 4 bets, the two callers call, and the maniac also calls.
Does checking and three betting in this situation seem OK? Not only does it seem ok, it is correct.
should I have folded the flop?
The only way to fold is if your convinced UTG has a set.
Turn - Ah
If UTG had bet the turn, and the action came back to me at about 20-1 do I call a Big Bet and hope for a king on the river?
Yes, once again if you read UTG for 2 pair, this is correct.
If UTG checks,and anyone else bets, I'm pretty sure that I have to muck because none of my 5 outs are clean and I dont want to invest two big bets here.
I would be inclined to fold too, but you have 8 outs against Q7.
River - Ks.
Wheee! If my read on the turn is right, I must be in first place now. I bet, and get called in three places (eek). I show and win the pot. UTG shows me Q7 suited, and says 'you got it on the river'.
And I say 'yes' and think 'you let me get there for free'.
Horrible play not the betting the turn, let alone playing Q7s UTG.
When I get home, I think 'this pot was slightly more than my session winnings', and I wondered if I should have even been there at the end.
Why not, you capitilized on a major error.
Ignore my first post. My comments are "highlighted"
4 players limp to the maniac who raises in the cutoff. The button and the SB both call, and I take a look and find Kc Qs in the Big Blind,and call one more bet. All thelimpers call ( 14 sb in the pot).
The maniac will play any connected cards, any two suited cards, any two above a ten, and nearly always raise whenever he plays a hand. Would anyone 3 bet in this situation?
**** Usually it is best to call and check/raise the flop if you hit. ****
Flop - Qd - 7s - 2c.
My first plan is to check to the maniac, and when he most likely bets, raise and try and eliminate much of the field. The small blind checks, I check, UTG bets, 2 callers, Maniac raises, small blind folds. UTG is a loose player and will lead with any top pair that he might hold, He will also probably raise preflop with AQ, so I think that if he has a Q, I'm probably ahead of him, and the Maniac will raise with any part of the flop. I decide to 3 bet, UTG makes it 4 bets, the two callers call, and the maniac also calls.
Does checking and three betting in this situation seem OK? **** Not only does it seem ok, it is correct. ***
should I have folded the flop?
**** The only way to fold is if your convinced UTG has a set. ****
Turn - Ah
If UTG had bet the turn, and the action came back to me at about 20-1 do I call a Big Bet and hope for a king on the river?
**** Yes, once again if you read UTG for 2 pair, this is correct. ****
If UTG checks,and anyone else bets, I'm pretty sure that I have to muck because none of my 5 outs are clean and I dont want to invest two big bets here.
***** I would be inclined to fold too, but you have 8 outs against Q7.*****
River - Ks.
Wheee! If my read on the turn is right, I must be in first place now. I bet, and get called in three places (eek). I show and win the pot. UTG shows me Q7 suited, and says 'you got it on the river'.
And I say 'yes' and think 'you let me get there for free'.
*** Horrible play not the betting the turn, let alone playing Q7s UTG. *****
When I get home, I think 'this pot was slightly more than my session winnings', and I wondered if I should have even been there at the end.
**** Why not, you capitilized on a major error.****
VERY soft 5-10 with a 10-20 kill game at Foxwoods.
This is a kill pot, and the kill button is on the BB. UTG folds. I am second to act with 77. People have been very scared to bet preflop in kill pots in this game (not used to this limit), so I limp, figuring I will get odds to hit a set.
As expected, 4 limpers and the blinds call, making an $70 pot. The flop misses me entirely -- AQ9 rainbow. I check, a very weak player to my left bets (he had shown me several hands with cheese). Other 5 limpers call. It's up to me and I fold since I am getting only 13-1 on a 23.5-1 play for a set.
Turn 7. Left player bets, 2 callers now, 3 fold.
River a Q. Left player bets, fold, and a raise. Left player calls.
River raiser shows Q8. Left player shows AJo and throws his hand in disgust.
----
I kept thinking abou it on the drive home, did I get enough implied odds to make the flop call? I was giving up about half the odds to make the call, but if I hit i figured I would be good for ~6-9 big bets on the turn and river total with a check raise, now making enough implied odds to play.
I might have even gotten more from the Q8o and I probably would have gone 3-4 bets with him heads up on the river. I doubt he would have AQ without a raise, but and Q9 or Q7 would have been raised on flop or turn.
I don't think it was a bad lay per se, but just interested what others think.
I am new to the board, hope I get some response.
BB Magic,
You made a good laydown, don't give it another thought. You made a correct read based on the situation at hand. If you start thinking about calling in this situation, it's often best just to take the $10 you were going to bet and chuck it in the toilet.
I'm sure most posters have folded their pocket pairs only to have that miracle card come on the turn and give them the best hand at the moment. You can't play in that "if I would have called" world. Recognize that you only have 2 "clean" outs in both 7s. Any card 8 or higher on the turn puts your underpair at a huge disadvantage. Half the deck can kill you versus only 2 outs that give you the lead temporarily is an easy fold.
I'm sure you already know this, but I need reminding too sometimes. I'm about ready to go play so hopefully I can swallow my own medicine.
Best wishes, Mike
you could probably rationalize it so calling is the right move, but i think folding is the best play.
mike
Easy fold, even with the implied odds. This is a slippery slope. Do you believe in the long run enough to play 22:1 shots because you *might* get the extra bets you need? Throw those underpairs in the muck fast and don't give it a second thought.
KJS
Not only do your 7's not have enough implied odds, they actually have NO IMPLIED ODDS at all.
The flop produced 3 overcards and with so many callers, it is extremely likely that at least one player has paired at least one of the overcards.
With this being the case, any split pair has equal odds of drawing a set as the pair of 7's, with the only difference being that the pair of 7's are almost surely not the best hand after the flop. The fact that you are first to act devalues the 7's even further.
After a flop like this, the pair of 7's are essentially worthless and should be tossed 100% of the time. With 3 overcards on the board and half the table in the hand, there is no way this hand can be profitable unless it can be played for free. So your check and fold was precisely the proper play.
As it turns out, my analysis is correct. Two players indeed paired board cards, which essentially put you in 3rd place on the flop. Maybe you hang in there with a close 2nd hand. But an obviously distant 3rd must always be mucked.
On the other hand, if the entire table had checked and you got to draw your set for free, then you would have received a major break and at least 1 or 2 players would have made a serious error by letting you draw to what is almost surely the best hand on the turn. Then you have to be prepared by betting your 7's on the turn and again on the river if it is an apparent blank.
Holdem Student: "With this being the case, any split pair has equal odds of drawing a set as the pair of 7's, with the only difference being that the pair of 7's are almost surely not the best hand after the flop. The fact that you are first to act devalues the 7's even further. "
Any split pair does not have an equal chance to make a set. It is impossible for the turn card to make the 77 a set and also make another person trips (a set is three of a kind with pocket pair, trips is two on the board). Then when the river comes, a person holding a split pair who tripped up would now lose to the 77 who would now have a full house. The rare occasion this would not be true is when the opponent's kicker happened to be a 7, giving him two pair on the turn. (in this case he would out redraw the 77 about 4.5% of the time. So even if an opponent held such a hand, this double whammy would occur around once in a thousand times). So an opponent who holds a single pair on the flop is not a threat to the 77 if the 77 is treated strictly as a drawing hand. In fact, knowing that your opponents held such a hand would make a call more correct, not less. Hands that threaten you are stronger drawing hands, overpairs to yours, two pairs, and already made sets. If you meant split TWO pair what you said is true, pretty much. Flopping a split two pair is 49-1.
Holdem Student: "Not only do your 7's not have enough implied odds, they actually have NO IMPLIED ODDS at all."
This is practically impossible to be the case. In order for a hand to have NO implied odds is to say that when it wins you will never make future bets. Even if a hand wins once in a million times (absurdly speaking), if it also makes a bet in future rounds one in a million times it has implied odds. Whether a hand has enough implied odds (or negative implied odds) is quite another story.
Of course the 77 should usually be folded (it is theoretically possible for calling to be correct, even knowing you are currently beat, but this is rare). This implied odds business is a dangerous game. Use potential implied odds to close small gaps, not grand canyons.
Regards.
Backdoor wrote:
“Any split pair does not have an equal chance to make a set. It is impossible for the turn card to make the 77 a set and also make another person trips (a set is three of a kind with pocket pair, trips is two on the board).”
You’re ahead of the hand on this comment. At the flop, one player is known to have 77 and the flop is AQ9. That means anyone holding Ax, Qx or 9x is not only ahead of 77, but also has equal chance of making a set on the turn. The best the 77 can improve to with A, Q or 9 on the turn is 2 pair (useless against a likely set at this point).
You also wrote:
“This is practically impossible to be the case (to have no implied odds).”
In order to have implied odds, your hand has to either be the best hand with a reasonable chance to remain so, or have a reasonable chance to improve to the best hand. After the flop, 77 doesn’t come close to meeting either or these criteria. After the flop, the player with 77 is a substantial underdog in the hand and substantial underdogs cannot have implied odds.
Let’s go at it even further. After the flop, the player has only 2 cards that will improve his hand to the position of favorite, the two remaining 7’s. Any A, Q, 9 on the turn is more dirt on the 7’s grave. For that matter, any K, J, or 10 on the turn also effectively kills the 7's because it brings the straight or straight draw into play, not to mention additional overpairs.
So let’s redo the math. The 7’s can improve with probability of 2/47. But there is a 21/47 probability (3-A’s, 4-K’s, 3-Q’s, 4-J’s, 4-10’s, 3-9’s) that a card, which will kill the 7’s, is going to appear on the turn. The remaining cards will probably maintain the status quo of the flop, which is that the 7’s are at best in 2nd or 3rd place.
So again, the player with 7’s pretty much has no chance to win this hand, and therefore, cannot have any implied odds.
Hold 'Em Student,
It might be a good idea to save your posts, and refer back to them in a few months. I have found this useful.
In the meantime, this is a great site to discuss poker.
It is amazing how much I have learned since I first started posting here.
Good luck.
Regards.
This stuff really is too much for the small stakes forum, but some of the lurkers here are trying to beat larger middle and higher limit games. Also, please do not take my post as picking on you. You seem to be a serious student. So anyway:
When you hold a small pair in the hole that misses the flop, you have a drawing hand. The chance the hand is good (presently) mulitway is neglible and irrelevant (because you are treating it as a drawing hand). The odds (which are simple) are 2/47 or 45/2 which is 22.5-1 odds against hitting on the turn. So there are two ways we can continue in the pot. We see by this simplistic EV equation:
Assume 10-20 limit holdem.
Assume we will win 90% of the time we hit a set on the turn, and will fold if we don't hit.
Assume we will make a bet on the turn and river when we hit and hold on, and lose same when we hit and lose. When we don't hit on the turn, naturally we fold.
EV= {chance of winning} * {how much we win} - {chance of losing}* {how much we lose}+ {implied odds we earn}* {how often }-{negative implied odds we spend}*{how often}
EV= {2/47 * .9}*{how much we win or pot size} - {45/47}*10 +{40}*{2/47*.9} - {2/47* .1}*40
EV={2/47*.9}*{how much we win or pot size} -9.57 + 1.53 -. 17
therefore:
8.21/.038 = how much we need to win to make the call on the flop correct=~ 216
Which shows us what we already know, that we need nearly 22-1 with very low estimated implied odds.
Now we see that even a small estimate of future bets (2 big bets) produces a non zero result of implied odds for a small pair such as the 77 in the described hand.
By substituting in different implied odds estimates into the equation, we can see how the pot size needed will change.
So to plug this into the original poster's question, he estimated 6-9 big bets as implied odds, thus:
pot size needed= (-9.57 + 2/47*.8 *9*20)/.038 ~= $91.
So we see that in order to justify a call from an EV standpoint we need approximately $91 in the pot on the flop in a ten twenty game for this call to be correct. This is using the 9 big bets estimate which is very very high and unrealistic.
Now to some of your comments:
H.S. : "You’re ahead of the hand on this comment. At the flop, one player is known to have 77 and the flop is AQ9. That means anyone holding Ax, Qx or 9x is not only ahead of 77, but also has equal chance of making a set on the turn. The best the 77 can improve to with A, Q or 9 on the turn is 2 pair (useless against a likely set at this point). "
I will try to make this point as clear as I can. A split board pair has no chance to outdraw 77 when the 77 improves to a set. Further there is a small difficulty with terminology. A set is three of a kind with a pair in the hole, not when the board pairs. When the board pairs this is called "trips". Split pairs cannot make sets. Period. Lastly, if you had the odds to justify taking a card off (which does happen in large pots..see the simple EV equations to determine this), you cannot make your hand and have a split pair improve (the one extremely rare case I noted) to beat you. Nor can it improve to beat you on the river. A split pair is a fabulous holding for your opponent to have if you are drawing to a set.
HS "In order to have implied odds, your hand has to either be the best hand with a reasonable chance to remain so, or have a reasonable chance to improve to the best hand. After the flop, 77 doesn’t come close to meeting either or these criteria. After the flop, the player with 77 is a substantial underdog in the hand and substantial underdogs cannot have implied odds."
A hand that has as little as one out has implied odds if when it hits the opponents pay off a greater than zero amount of times. Refer to the above simple EV equation to verify this.
HS " So let’s redo the math. The 7’s can improve with probability of 2/47. But there is a 21/47 probability (3-A’s, 4-K’s, 3-Q’s, 4-J’s, 4-10’s, 3-9’s) that a card, which will kill the 7’s, is going to appear on the turn. The remaining cards will probably maintain the status quo of the flop, which is that the 7’s are at best in 2nd or 3rd place.
The above math has no insight. The two probabilities are mutually exclusive. They both can't happen. If you refer to the simple EV equation above, you will see that the losing amount is determined as 45/47 which covers all the cases where a 7 does not show. What those other 45/47 is not relevant because you are folding. The lone exception is a case where the turn was checked through.
HS: " So again, the player with 7’s pretty much has no chance to win this hand, and therefore, cannot have any implied odds."
Again, this is incorrect.
Regards.
I see your points and thanks for taking the time to go through the details. And don't worry about whether or not you might be picking on me, because that doesn't bother me. I'm learning the game. So if I stumble, the only logical course of action is to figure out why I stumbled and make adjustments in reasoning so it doesn't happen again in the future. Bringing ego or feelings into the situation does nothing but prevent progress.
I think you had a borderline call/fold here. with 13 small bets in the pot, you would have to count on getting at least 5 more BB out of your opponents on the next two rounds, which doesn't seem too unreasonable in a loose game. However, you really need to be able to count on slightly more than that, because with several possible straight draws, plus your seven might give someone a flush draw (don't know what the suits were), sometimes you will get drawn out on by redraws on the river. While theoretically you probably could have justified a call, it's a high variance play, and I would probably have just folded and got on with the next hand.
Dave in Cali
Interesting hand.
Foxwoods 5-10 game, 6 handed. My friend has 99. He raises from late position, BB (a very loose player)reraises, my friend calls.
flop was 983 with 2 hearts.
They go 7 bets on the flop heads up my friend with the set (there is no cap heads up). My friend finally slows down and calls.
Turn comes a Th. BB bets, my friend calls.
River a blank, bet and call. BB turns over AKh and takes down a $122 heads up pot.
------------
We talked a lot about this hand afterward. Perhaps this is 20-20 hindsight, but if I read him for a nasty flush draw (which my friend did), I would have slowed on the flop after 3 or 4 bets, and then bet/raised out on the turn if a blank came to cut his odds.
If he hits, then just check and call in case of a lower set. You still have 13 outs to fill or quad up.
On the other hand, BB was a loose cannon and I don't think that he thought about odds, and my friend argued that he is still a favorite. He is drawing to a 9 outer, and even if he hits that he still has 13 outs.
In retrospect, I agree with my friends assessment. I would like to know what others think.
if you find someone willing to battle heads up with a flush draw against top set, i suggest you take full advantage of it.
mike
Top set is a SUPERIOR hand to the nut flush draw. I would be willing to put all my chips in here.
So you would put your entire stack anytime you are a favorite? Would you put your whole bankroll? What if you are only 1.01-1 favorite? Just because you are a favorite, doesn't mean it makes sense to put your stack in there.
Of course it makes no sense to risk your whole bankroll. But it makes a great deal of sense to put in your whole stack, which presumably is only a fraction of your bankroll, with a large edge. If you're not willing to risk your stack with a 2:1 edge, there's a pretty good chance that you're playing too big for your bankroll.
I'll address your questions one at a time.
1. So you would put your entire stack anytime you are a favorite?
Let's go through some basics.Assume I move in and my opponent calls, thus the hand will play out to the end.
A pair vs 2 overcards is about an 11-10 favorite BTF. Here I probably would not move in.
KK is about a 4-1 favorite over a smaller pair. Here, yes I would move in if I felt my opponent did not have AA.
AK is about a 2-1 favorite over QT. Move in
K7 is about a 6-5 favorite over QJ. This is not large enough to move in unless you are "short-stacked".
Top set on the flop is a 2-1 favorite over BOTH a nut flush or nut straight draw. Against a open end str8 flush draw, it is a 6-5 dog.
My cutoff is a 2-1 favorite or more to move in. The odd thing is I would want my opponent to play back at me first because if I move in, he really should fold. If he folds, I can't get his stack.
However, the only time in limit hold em this even comes into play is when your heads up and the guy keeps raising.
2. Would you put your whole bankroll?
You would never put your whole bankroll into a game in the first place. This is a moot point.
3. What if you are only 1.01-1 favorite?
See item 1.
4. Just because you are a favorite, doesn't mean it makes sense to put your stack in there.
If you don't KNOW your a favorite, this is correct.
However, with top set on the flop against a nut flush or straight draw only, it makes PERFECT sense
to move in. The only justication for NOT doing it
is if you are up against an open-end str8 flush draw, which is unlikely.
It all depends on whether you think you're up against JhTh (or Th7h or 7h6h). In that case, he's got a 54% chance of making a straight or better. Of course, he can make his hand, but you can fill up at the same time. From your description, I don't know if there's a straight flush possibility but that doesn't change the math that much. You're looking at a coin toss in this case. In all other cases, your edge is large and I would be willing to bet my entire stack. In this particular case, the other guy has a 35% chance to make his hand. There is again the possibility that he will hit and you will still beat him. That makes you a little better than a 2:1 favorite. Given that he three-bet out of the big blind, I'd say it is unlikely that he has JhTh, but you did describe him as very loose. If he has a set, two pair, or an overpair, your edge is huge. I think that in the heat of battle, I'd go quite a few bets, and at some point I'd decide that the other guy had a 15-out draw and slow down. If I somehow knew that I was up against a flush draw alone, and given the betting here, there are a lot of opponents that I'd draw that conclusion against, I'd put the rest of my money in on the flop.
I can't help but think...if its no limit and I bet and get raised I am going all-in and want a call. Not much different here.
KJS
BB wrote:
"Foxwoods 5-10 game, 6 handed. My friend has 99. He raises from late position, BB (a very loose player)reraises, my friend calls.
.........etc.........
River a blank, bet and call. BB turns over AKh and takes down a $122 heads up pot. "
Here's my analysis, BB.
Above all, something's not quite right with the math. Let's work backwards.
$122 pot minus $20 for the bet and call on the river. Puts us at $102.
$102 minus $20 for bet and call on the turn. Puts us at $82.
$82 minus $70 for the 7 raises and calls on the flop. Puts us at $12.
$12 preflop with 2 raises and 6 players? Doesn't add up, does it?
Am I missing something here? If the math's not right, then how can the hand be properly analyzed?
Even without the math, not knowing BB's original position (e.g., did he reraise from one of the blinds) makes it impossible to discuss where your friend may have made errors in judgement. For example, if BB reraised from the small blind, then your friend probably should have tossed the 9's before the flop.
Also, even without the math and without the position knowledge, after all the raises and bets, there is no way that your friend can justify a call on the river. His opponent can have nothing else but a flush. And he has to know that he has to fold a beaten hand.
6 handed game doesn't mean that all 6 players saw the flop.
The math doesn't quite add up, it should be 140$ - rake by rivertime. Maybe it only went to 6 bets on the flop, it's not really that important.
At the river it's an automatic call. You're getting 11:1 odds on the river call. I can see a couple of hands players might play this way without a flush draw. 77 is not at all impossible. Remember that hero raised from a late position and that BB (loose agressive) might put him on a steal and want to punish him with 77. Even 33 might warrant a raise in his mind. Loose agressive's might even get so very much in love with their AA/KK that they'll get carried away (especially with a A or K of hearts). He could be steaming from a previous hand. He could be making an advertising play (not likeley admittedly). All theese factors combined should add up to at least a 10% chance that your hand is good.
Add that players who notice that you fold the river for one bet after going to 7 on the flop might start getting tricky with you. It's not all math.
Sincerly, Andreas
The last time of your statement is the greatest danger of all. If you lay down, you can expect a whole lot of future trouble. You lost one bet at the end to prevent losing 100 bets (or more) in the future when your opponents tear you apart.
I disagree about folding before the flop. Depends on how strong your post flop play is. At worst, with your raise and opponents three bet, plus a small blind incl. the worst you are getting for the last bet is 5.5-1 for a 7.75-1 dog, assuming an overpair. If you flop a set, your implied odds are a min. 4 SB making up for the pre-flop underlay. Are you prepared to lay the hand down post flop if it is 862. Depends on your read on the player. In most cases, it would be correct. However, having flopped top set and going multiple bets on the flop, I would have minimized the flush as an option. I might have even lost an extra bet at the turn when the flush came. Paying off at the river against an LAP is almost mandatory. Otherwise, this person will be "teeing off" on you all day. I would probably willing to put about 1/2 of my stack in on the flop with this hand. I never like the idea of putting my whole stack in with cards to come without a stone cold lock. Why go broke to bad luck? Your opponent is making a lot of errors but this won't be the only hand he makes them in. Save some chips to exploit errors in the future rather than busting out to bad luck and then not being able to fight in the future.
Cheers. Larry
Larry, you and Andreas raise some interesting points about how the hand could be looked at. But I can't agree with the call on the river, regardless of what the pot offers in terms of pot odds. By the bet on the turn, in combination with the pre-flop raise, the opponent is basically saying: "I have already made a pretty good hand!"
What are the possible hands the opponent could have: flush, straight, trips, two pair or pair? What are the odds that the opponent would have played the hand the way he did with anything other than a flush or straight? I certainly can't see it. So the player must conclude that his set is beaten and fold the hand. All the pot odds in the world are going to turn a beaten hand into a winner.
What other hands would he have played in this manner? How many people do you know that put in 7 bets on the flop with a flush DRAW? The possibility of 8-8 is significant and the hand must be called out.
in this hand you must go for your hole stack if he will continue raising. its not like its all your money in the world. this is a huge edge and must be exploited. you may lose hours of ev trying to recoup what you didnt capitalize on. and to holdem student what happens is some times you find he had a set as well and played it this way and you fold a winner in a huge pot. or worse the other players see you make this fold and make shots at you in tough spots the rest of your life.
Ray,
Thanks, I appreciate seeing your opinion on this thread. You are the expert and, since I am the student, someone I would want to learn from. So I'll keep your opinion in the memory banks for future use. Thanks again!
Add that players who notice that you fold the river for one bet after going to 7 on the flop might start getting tricky with you. It's not all math.
The above statement is the reason you MUST call
a river bet.
If you are not willing to risk all your chips with top set versus a flush draw, you are in big trouble in hold em. Good point Ray makes about folding the river. If you do fold here, you will get run over every time you play (especially if your opponents see it).
As an addition to Ray's comments, if you are playing with the proper bankroll, you should be even more inclined to go all-in here if given the chance. With top set, which is the current nuts on the flop, you DEFINITELY have the best of it, so put your money in NOW. Any other hand is DRAWING to beat you, make them pay. If you put it all in and bust out due to bad luck, no biggie. When you are properly bankrolled, you just shrug it off and buy another rack or two of chips. Ray is right, this is too big of an edge to NOT exploit.
Sometimes, you don't have a luxury to wait for a spot like this. If your in a tournament, you only have a finite amount of chips and time to work with. In a side game, you can wait longer. Another issue is how much money you and your opponent have. But, you are heads up as a 2-1 favorite in almost every case. The exception is the open-end str8 flush draw. You have both a smaller set and an overpair toasted. The key to moving in this hand is you have the nuts at the point the chips are going into the pot. In poker, this is the best you can do. If you wait until the river, you probably will not get paid off. Here, we have an opponent over-extending the nut flush draw with cards to come against a superior hand. The superior hand (3 9's) has to extract maximum value here.
No, you can't fold a pocket pair in limit hold em to a 3 bet from the small blind.
Your friend flopped what was the nuts on the flop. I would bet and raise till the cows came home. The flush draw was NOT getting the needed odds to draw to the flush in a heads up pot, so keep on betting all day long. I would have probably been willing to just skip all the incremental raises and go all-in on the flop. After all, your friend had the nuts at that point, any other hand would be DRAWING to beat me. Each time the flush draw puts another bet into the pot, his odds are getting worse and worse. Heads up, he can't be getting more than even money on his bets, and it's 1.86:1 against his making the flush by the river, so by all means, keep raising! Not to mention that even if he hits on the turn, your friend will still have TEN outs (not 13) to beat him on the river. Because it's heads up, the fundamental theorem of poker applies here, and the flush draw cannot suck any equity out of your friend's hand, because there is no one else in the pot. Therefore your friend wants to make the flush draw pay as much as possible while your friend is still ahead. If the guy with the flush draw wants to keep putting money into the pot on the flop, there is no need to wait till the turn to cut down his odds, it's heads up, so he is only getting even money anyway.
Dave in Cali
One of those sessions where the cards are running *terribly* -- i had played almost two hours without winning a single pot -- and my stack is running low, about 4BB left in a $6-12 game.
I'm dealt J-J in the small ($2) blind. First postion folds, Second Position raises and gets two callers before the Button, a conservative older player, makes it three bets.
Looking down at my short stack and figuring I've only got one chance to make a stand, I toss the jacks away. I'm mildly relieved not to be in the pot when the Big Blind caps the betting at $24. Everyone calls.
The cards come down 10-9-4-10-7 rainbow. Second Position, who had made the initial pre-flop raise with A-9s, takes the pot. The Button (the second pre-flop raiser) disgustedly throws down A-Ks. Big Blind (the final pre-flop raiser) mucks.
My jacks would have won a huge pot. Was it wrong to toss them given my short stack, terrible position and the two pre-flop raises (with one to follow)? Or did the number of players (4 players were already in) dictate that I stay?
confused about blind structure. If the small blind is $2.00, how much is the big blind?? Seems like an unusual blind for 6-12. At any rate. Sounds like your stack is about the same size as the bet to you. You are getting 96-22 pot odds or approx. 4.3 - 1. and going all-in meaning that it will not cost you anymore to finish the hand. Odds of making trips with 5 to come are approx. 4-1 making this call mathematically correct. Plus your hand can stand up on it's own although I think your assessment in most cases would be close. Seems like you are behind. Still, I think a call is in order here.
Cheers.
You've don't even have enough money on the table to play out a hand properly. You're getting good odds on your money, so why not throw the rest of your chips in with a quality hand like JJ?
Mike
I think I read the situation badly. Gotta quit drinkin a six pack before reading these things. Anyway, looks like there is actually five players involved making it 120-22 or about 5.5-1. I too prefer to keep plenty of chips in front of me. If I get short stacked I either buy more or go home. Nothing worse than flopping aces full with 2 BB left in my stack and watching as the side pot grows exponentially while I sit back and wait for my $30 windfall.
Cheers
Why do you feel a call is in order? According to the blind structure, it seems he is getting less than 4 to 1. He is actually more than a 4.5 to 1 dog to make a set by 5th street. In addition, he will be forced to go all-in which means he is not receiving proper implied odds for those times when he does make a set. Of course, this assumes he is currently behind which as it turns out, was not the case. Still, I think JJ will be behind most times given his description of the 3-bettor. I will usually fold JJ here, and I ALWAYS keep plenty of chips in front of me...
sounds like you are using poor judgement to determine what you play. running bad has nothing to do with what hands you play. and getting low on chips only means you change your play based on how it will effect your betting being all in shortly in the hand. all that aside id fold when a real tight player makes it 3 bets when i had jj. but from what you indicated the old guy must of had a big pair but where was it. if he didnt you are not reading your opponents correctly.
This brings up a question I've always had, but never got the opportunity to ask of a real expert.
What do you think of going all-in during a full tabled limit ring game? I notice many good players doing this and I can't for the life of me understand it. I always keep plenty of chips in front of me. The last thing I want after a long hard session, is to catch a really big hand and not be able to capitalize it!??
I understand there are strategies for playing a short stack even in limit games, but aren't you always better off having enough chips? Thanks.
Kevin
i can't think of any reason for a good player not to have enough chips in front of him to play a hand properly.
mike
there are many games where the less chips you have the better. some games being able to go allin early gives you an edge to steal smaller pots where if you have alot of chips you cant make many of the raises as if you get called or played back at you are in too much trouble. this comes up in no limit holdem and omaha in the right games.
The only comment I will make is whenever I am playing limit holdem I always have at least 20 BB in front of me. If I am playing so bad or missing flops so bad I will get up and leave before I will play with less in front of me. No-Limit is another story. Playing short stacked in a limit game just does not make sense to me. If I can't afford to put more in the game I will move to a lower limit.
5-10 and i have 56 offsuit in the BB. The player in the 3 seat raises and there are 2 calls and I call. The raise has been raising with less than premium hands at least half the time in this position.
Flop K-6-3 with 2 clubs
I check, raiser bets, one caller and I call.
Turn 7
I check, raiser bets, one caller and I call.
River 5 of clubs.
I check and it is checked around. I win with my 2 pair and when the raise sees that he has lost he become quite upset and picks up his chips and leave with a few comments about my hand.
Should I have folded preflop or anywhere else in the hand?
I had been playing quite tight and did not respect his raise. Getting part of the flop kept me in but i would have folded for a raise. The turn gave me a straight draw and i felt that i was in to the end.
I'll only comment on the pre-flop play. This is just my opinion. Many might view it very differently. To me it doesn't matter much whether you respected his raise or not. His hand most likely beats a five high, wouldn't you think? In addition, there are two cold callers of a raise. This is not enough to get excited about your implied odds, but it does increase the probability that somebody has a decent hand. This could bode further trouble for you should you happen to catch a piece of the flop. Needless to say, I would almost always fold this hand and wouldn't think twice about it. Good luck.
It would be a big mistake to fold before the flop as the immediate odds he's getting from the pot are very close to the odds against flopping a set, two pair, flush, straight or a draw that eventually gets there. Against this particular kind of raiser he should even call heads-up.
Thought it was suited. Offsuit it's marginal but probably OK, as the chance of flopping or making a big hand is nearly 12%.
"Offsuit it's marginal but probably OK, as the chance of flopping or making a big hand is nearly 12%."
To each his own. I think a lot of players lose too much from their blinds and thinking they're getting the right price with a piece of garbage like 56o is one reason why. I think where the raise came from is important. I'd rather have him on my left than right. Suited, I'd probably look at a flop at 7 to 1. Offsuit, I'd throw it away and wouldn't have to think too hard about it.
Big hand 12% of the time? What do you consider a big hand? You'll flop at least a pair a little less than 1/3 of the time. When this happens you'll have the best hand sometimes, but won't make much due to your poor position. Other times you'll have to throw this "best hand" away, since overcards are almost inevitable and again poor position makes playing into overcards difficult at best.
By big hand, do you mean two-pair or better? Even then, your vulnerable to becoming counterfeited by the river. The same goes for some of the str8's you can make. I think most times you're just throwing a sb away...
"By big hand, do you mean two-pair or better? Even then, your vulnerable to becoming counterfeited by the river. The same goes for some of the str8's you can make. I think most times you're just throwing a sb away..."
By big hand I mean (1) a flopped open set; (2) a flopped 2 pair; (3) a flopped straight draw that eventually gets there. And I'm sort of guessing at 12% but I think it's conservative.
It makes no difference if these hands sometimes lose, everything sometimes loses and denigrating them amounts to falling into the "AK really loses more than it wins" trap. These hands win around 70-90% of the bets your opponents put in after the flop.
BTW, I'm not arguing hard for this, and I often muck this hand in the same situation, depending on who's in the pot, my image, etc.
suited it would be an easy call against the majority of opponents. In addition, if the flop gives you something good, like two pair or trips, you may wind up getting a lot of action from the players with "good hands" that called the raise.
Everything about this hand is right on the border. The two clubs would have induced me to fold on the turn. If a club improves you to lose you'll pay, but if it gives you a winner you might not be able to bet and they might not be able to call.
Preflop: You've got to fold small unsuited connectors. They won't make a hand very much. If they were suited, I'd call.
Flop: You have second pair, no kicker, there is a high card (which could have hit the raiser or one of the cold callers) and there is a two flush on the board. You are, however, getting 10:1 on a call, so it is probably ok to continue hoping to pick up two pair, three of a kind, or a straight draw.
Turn:
You have three clean outs to the nuts (the non-club 4s). The nonclub 6s and 5s are probably good too (I can't tell if the 6 of clubs is in your hand or on the board). Assuming the 6 of clubs is exposed, that gives you 2 sixes and two fives. In addition, the 4 or 5 of clubs might be good. The pot is laying 8.5:1. You do have to consider the chance that you are drawing slim to a set of Kings. The call, however, is probably correct.
Note that by folding preflop, you avoid putting in a lot of money and having to make a lot of marginal decisions when drawing to a longshot.
Thanks all for the imput. I know that it is best to be a beter than a caller but by having the raise bet right after my check, i did put myself in last position.I would have folded for a raise at any point, but like i said i had been playing tight and if anyone else but this player had raise preflop, i would have folded no questions asked. 6 of clubs was on the board. I know that the whole time the hand was close to a fold and i am sure that is why the raiser got upset with the lose of the hand. Thanks again and good luck.
you were getting 7:1 to call pre-flop. On the button, I would gladly play 65o getting 7:1, as long as I didn't expect a raise from the blinds. In the SB, with only three players in the pot, your call is much more marginal, I would have folded it. You are out of position and your implied odds are much lower with only three opponents. All that aside, you played fine after that. Did you intend to check-call the river, for fear of the flush? As for your opponent's behavior, screw the jerk, let him act like a baby if he wants. Cardrooms typically DON'T provide towels for crying in, so you have to bring your own….
Dave in Cali
Dave, thanks for the advise.If anyone had bet the river, i would have called. One thing is that by having the raiser bet right after me, I did have last position and could have easily folded for a raise at any point. What I find fun is that you could be sucked out on, all night long by certain players but do it just once to them and all hell breaks out. Thanks again and good luck.
Last night I'm in the BB with 4-4. Four callers and the SB raises. I call and rest of them do too. Flop comes down 5-6-7. I believe it was a rainbow, but I can't guarantee it. I know this may make a difference in the decision so I'll throw it in. Anyway, SB bets out, as I knew he would. I don't like this. I think the SB is just betting out because he feels he has to, but that doesn't concern me. What matters is that I'm trapped between him and 4 unknown players and this is a very nice flop to get either a lot of money or lose a lot. There was enough in the pot to pull off another card. But this is assuming no one raises and it's assuming that the 8 doesn't come and I still lose and...well, it's assuming a lot of things. I fold.
To be honest, I debated seriously what the best move was, coming to no real conclusion, even before the turn card. Which was a 3, yada yada yada...
Anyway, what's your opinion on the situation?
I think your call before the flop was fine, considering you had many players and were looking to flop a set. When you get a flop like this, you are drawing to the ignorant end of a straight, a situation you do not want to be in. The SB probably has an overpair, and someone has an 8 most likely (and this person will raise the flop, with a chance of the SB 3-betting). You made a good fold here, as you may have also been drawing to a gutshot in effect b/c only a 3 would be good if anyone held a 9, which is again likely. JMHO.
Jeff
Fold on the flop.
For me, I couldn't see a justification for calling the SB pre-flop raise. While I don't know the personality of the table you were sitting in at, the SB has to have either AK (probably suited) or 10-10 or higher pair.
My guess would be that the SB has AK and is raising to get more money in the pot, or has something like 10-10 and is raising to imply he has something stronger and hoping to drive people from the pot.
I guess the personality of the SB would be the key, and whether or not the later callers were predictable players or not. My experience (while limited) has been that not too many people at this level or below would raise from this position without something pretty strong.
Anybody out there think not calling the SB raise would have been a more appropriate strategy?
I think it's a pretty clear call. Let's see. I would say it's rare that a limper will re-raise, and it's rare that a limper will fold. I put the immediate pot odds at 11-1. Odds against flopping a set are only around 7.5-1, so I'll see if I can find a 4 on the flop. There is also implied odds if you hit (and yes, sometimes you'll hit and lose). Still I think this is an EASY call.
It is easy to see what the pot odds seem to be offering. But what about the personality question: What are the likely hands that SB would raise with given that there are several limpers and 1 player still to act.
If this player is liable in the SB to raise loosely (e.g., with hands like any 2 suited connectors, or any pair, etc.), then you have an entirely different scenario that if you think this player will raise from here only with something like AQs or better, or JJ or better.
If you know that the SB will only raise from the SB with fairly strong hands, then the odds the pot is offering are actually less than 11-1, and you probably cannot justify the call.
Also, similarly what are the other players likely to limp in with and/or cold call with?
Possibly my thinking is overly tight and I will have to make some adjustments in thought and play. But in this kind of situation, I think you have to have a pretty good read on your fellow players' styles to consider making this call.
On the other hand, if the SB is a known loose raiser, then if calling is okay, then wouldn't making it 3 bets (representing a bigger hand) to try to limit the field, and play to try and win the hand on the flop. Your raise limits their odds to something like 35-10 and they may be in error if they call.
I mean, even if you call or raise and get your set, then aren't you hoping to take it down on the flop, rather than risk one or two more draw cards for your opponents? And by representing a bigger hand pre-flop, you might even get a check from the SB on the flop if he doesn't catch.
I guess I just don't see the value in a cold call in this situation. Fold most likely, but possibly raise if you know your opponents. Only the best hand and/or the worst players are likely to call the second raise.
Any thoughts on this?
The thing here is that I'm not cold calling. I'm calling one bet in the BB when everyone else is putting in two. Even if he had AA, I still think I have the odds to call his raise if I know that no one else is reraising. It's not so much a matter of what he had preflop as what I should do post flop.
FTR, he raised on a pair of fives makinga set on the flop and taking down the pot. I know, I know. This guy had bigger issues than even that. This hand was early in the evening though and I had no idea...
You should assume the SB has a good hand when we raises into a big field. Since he is big you cannot re-raise, but in this situation, even if I knew 100% that he had AA, I would still call and look for a set on the flop with 11-1. (If you will assume the limpers will not fold or re-raise.)
You don't care if the SB has a big hand, you are looking for a set.
"You don't care if the SB has a big hand, you are looking for a set."
Okay, so if you assume the SB has a big hand, which I will assume you mean to be a fairly big pair, such as 10-10 or better, you're telling me it is profitable to always call in the BB.
What do you do if the flop comes with some mix of bigcard-bigcard-yoursetcard? Can you justify playing this more than you could pre-flop? I don't think so because you may be marrying the second best hand all the way to the river.
You have 7.5:1 for flopping a set, so you want to make this worth a call. But assuming the SB has 10-10 or better, you have better than even money odds that the flop will also bring at least one card that may make a set for the SB, too.
And if the card comes and the SB bets into you, how will you know what the SB really has unless you had re-raised pre-flop? The SB would likely re-raise with AA, KK or QQ, but perhaps not with JJ, 10-10 or more importantly, AK or AQ. That re-raise might buy you this information.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but calling a SB raise with a small pair in the big blind can't be profitable over the long haul. To make even a borderline decent play, you would have to re-raise to put people in later positions on a 2-bet call/fold decision and to gather information from SB.
Again all this is speculation for me, because I don't know the players in this situation. But if I'm this situation and don't yet have a good feel for the players, then I toss the small pair on the SB raise unless I'm certain that a re-raise will put me in a better position.
If you are "certain" your opponent has a bigger pair, you should fold BTF the smaller pair. However, in many cases you should call because you have 5 players in the pot already, hence the price is correct for your hand. The big danger is if someone 3 bets that previously limped and the others fold, then the SB 4 bets. This suggests one or more players have bigger pairs. Here, you are in big trouble and should dump 44.
Another scenario where 44 is playable in the BB is if everyone folds to the SB, who then raises. Here, it it not out of line to 3 bet because the SB could be raising with a very wide range of hands.
The set over set case does occur. However, it is similiar to the big flush/small flush case. Yes, you will lose chips in these cases. However, most of the time, if you flop a set, you will win the pot.
See my post below. The call is better when the SB has a big pair. It has to do with implied odds.
Pat
Hold 'em Student,
You aren't thinking about this correctly. If the SB actually showed me the AA's I would still call. In fact, the bigger his pocket pair, the better the call.
As Tom says, you are facing 11-1 pot odds right now. Those odds are never affected by other holdings, they are what they are. When you say a big pair makes your odds worse you are talking some mix of effective odd or implied odds, i.e. what you expect to get in future hands of betting. In this case, you aren't going to play beyond the flop unless you flop a 4, so you are getting implied odds, making the actual odds better than 11-1. In fact, your implied odds are better if has AA rather than AK. Why? Because he is a) more likely to bet when you flop a 4, making a bigger pot, and b) he will call more bets from you with a 2 outer.
Do the math. I'll give you the assumptions you need to make: 1) you fold if you don't flop a set 2) you win 66% of the time when you flop the set. 3) you gain x number of bets when you flop the set and win (the bigger his pair, the higher x is, so you can see why a big pair for the SB is better. 4) you lose x number of bets when you fold.
Here is my math. I'll assume you get 2 bets in on the flop, 2 opponents. One bet on the turn and one on the river, only 1 opponent. These are pretty conservative.
7.5 * SB = -7.5 SB's when you miss the 4 on the flop. .33 * 6SB = -1.98 SB's when you lose with the set .66 * 19SB = 12.54 SB's when you win. Net is 3.06 SB's or .36 SB's per hand.
In the hero's 6-12 game that is $2+ of pure profit you are throwing away when you fold this hand, and that is under some very conservative assumptions.
If you aren't thinking this way in this relatively easy situation, you may be missing many other profitable decisions.
Pat Charlton
Maybe it's just me, but I can’t buy your assumptions with your arithmetical analysis because it seems like you are assuming a passive bet and call scenario. For example, if the flop comes something like A4J or Q410 and the SB bets into you, are you going to raise into a very possible re-raise?
Or if you haven’t re-raised preflop to represent more strength, then your opponent may likely put you on the set of 4’s if you raise after the flop, and you may not get paid off.
Or let’s say the flop includes also your 4 along with a couple of suited or connected cards. The SB may well bet into this hand. Are you going to raise? Is one of the later players going to raise or re-raise with a top 4-flush or outside straight draw? What if you are up against both?
What happens to the marginal profit of your computations in these and other possible raising scenarios? Seems like it's no longer there.
Or better yet, why is your proposed strategy contrary to that advocated in the 2+2 and other quality books on limit Hold ‘Em? Do you know more than they do?
But instead of getting into a long drawn out debate, I'll extend an invitation instead. If you’re willing to play 44 against a known AA preflop, especially when the AA is the SB and you and your 44 are the BB, then consider yourself invited to my table anytime.
Holdem Student insists: "Or better yet, why is your proposed strategy contrary to that advocated in the 2+2 and other quality books on limit Hold ‘Em? Do you know more than they do?"
The below is cut out from a thread from Nov 98 (one of dozens of threads that deal with this simple issue):
************************************************ Re: Small pocket pairs Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com) Posted on: Monday, 9 November 1998, at 11:24 p.m.
Since your set will sometimes get beat, you need closer to 10-to-1 implied odds for those times that your set does hold up. Thus you need to be pretty sure that when you win this pot your profit is on average $400 or better. In some games like you describe this may be the case.
Re: Small pocket pairs Posted by: Mason Malmuth (MasonMalmuth@TwoPlusTwo.com) Posted on: Monday, 9 November 1998, at 11:31 p.m.
[Quoting a poster :]"If one of the players in the pot probably has AA, KK, or QQ your implied odds diminish, because of those times when one of your opponents flops top set over your middle/bottom set."
I disagree. Players with big pairs will often give a lot of action without improving their hand, and being afraid of set over set is something that many *inexperienced* players have an irrational fear of.
[poster]"Furthermore you have bad position over your opponents."
Not necessarily. If the capper is in a late position you could bet and force the other players to put money in the pot before he raises.
[poster]"In a capped pot preflop, I would muck 66 or 55 in the blinds."
You should do this if you don't feel that you will get the necessary implied odds to make this call profitable. I agree that this will often be the case, but it should be close.
[Poster]"If I was in late position and only had to pay 1 BB to call vs 4+ players, I would definitely call."
I agree, but against the right players it can be right to call with a pair of deuces for more than 1 BB.
*****************************************
You might consider checking the context of these statements to fully understand them. You also might want to hold off on challenging others to poker duels.
Great post Backdoor. Thanks.
Hold 'em Student:
I made a mistake in responding to your post before catching up on earlier threads. It is quite clear from those earlier posts that you have very little understanding of pot odds and implied odds. Many of the quality posters on this site have patiently tried to correct your views, yet to this point you make statements that demonstrate you don't know what you are talking about.
My thanks to Backdoor for researching Mason's thoughts on this matter. My ideas on calling with a pocket pair, getting good odds, and against a larger pocket pair come from that source. I recommend you take Backdoor's advice and go back and read those threads that come from a 2+2 author. This doesn't come from a book, but it is the horse's mouth, so to speak. If you can come up with a book that wouldn't call with pocket 44's in the big blind, getting 10-1 or better, please show me the passage. I don't think you'll find one.
You call yourself a student, but you aren't a very good one. You get free and excellent advice from many posters, all saying the same thing, and you not only refuse to listen, you continue spouting nonsense.
Thank you for the invitation to your game. I live in Denver, Colorado. Let me know if you are around and I'll happily invite you to my game. This isn't a grudge invitation, I just like to play cards. Despite your obstinacy over some fairly fundamental poker info, you seem like a very nice and interesting person. I have a small home game where the purpose is to increase everyone's understanding of this complicated game. We then take that knowledge and hopefully beat up on the casino and internet games. We all have fun and learn something at the same. If you're local let me know.
As to this issue, I give up. I've stated my thoughts so readers can read them both and make their own views. This is fundamental knowledge, and fairly simple. However, given your recent posting history, I don't see any hope of convincing you.
Take Care,
Pat Charlton
Well, this thread started out with the BB gettting 7:1 after 4 limpers and a SB raise. But then after Tom Young’s mid-thread post, all of the sudden everyone is talking 11:1.
Sure I might take a different viewpoint if I had these kinds of odds. But that's quite a bit off the original topic.
In the original point, the best play is to fold, the second best play is to raise, and the worst play is to call. Agree or disagree?
So if that’s where you feel I erred in this discussion, then so be it. No big deal. I made a mistake and I’ll learn from it. But as far as your playing BB 44 to my SB AA, I’ll still take that bet all day every day.
Contrary to your opinion, I do respect Mason Maulmuth's opinions as highly as any I read. And I’m thankful to “backdoor” for taking the time to point out his opinions from a past related thread.
As far as your other opinions about my current skill level and ability to learn, you are certainly entitled to them. Learning and expressing opinions is what this forum is supposed to be about, right?
Responded to this last night, but it appears to have been lost. I'll try again.
Yes, you are facing 7-1 immediate odds, but how many low limit limpers fold for one more bet pre-flop. None? Pretty close to none. You can safely figure 11-1 by the end of the pre-flop betting.
I disagree. Raising is the worst play. Calling is far superior. When you raise, you are only getting 5-1. Likely the SB pops it again, and you are putting in 2 bets at 5-1. Why do you want to raise? To get heads up with the AA's? Why? You want to hit a set, and you want the limpers there for when you do, most of them will be drawing dead.
Yes, of course you will take the AA's vs the 44's every day. So would I. Many times, more than one hand benefits from money going into the pot. Do you understand that concept? When you call 1 SB with a flush draw while getting 6-1 do you worry about the bettor having Aces? Can you see where it might just be better that he have aces than AK when you draw to that flush? Why do you think the situation with 44's is any different. You aren't playing the 44's for the best hand, they are a drawing hand, you are drawing to another 4. Another reason you don't want to go raising pre-flop (not that it isn't always right to raise with a draw, I'll pop the nut flush draw getting 5-1 all day long). This isn't about calling 44's vs AA's heads up, it is about playing a drawing hand in a profitable situation. Do you now think this is a good call?
Say yes, and school can be over for today Pat
I don't see any calculations for the case of getting set underered. Where are these? Also, you are making the broad assumption your opponents will not fold overpairs (usually correct in a LL game). AA is always the best starting hand in the game. The reason the call can work is the price is correct. Assuming no one 3 bets BTF, which would eliminate the potential of being heads up against a bigger pair. You don't want to be heads up against a bigger pair. You lose 80% of the time.
Set over set is figured into the 1/3 of the times you lose when you flop the set. Obviously, the betting would be a bit different in that scenario, but there are an infinite number of betting scenario's. What you want is the average number of bets going into the pot. But you are just nutpicking there.
As you say, you are calling because the price is right. Saying that, you agree with the basic premise of calling with 44's getting 10-1 or whatever it was. Once you flop the set, you certainly won't be losing to an overpair 80% of the time, so that 80% number is meaningless.
Who says you want to be heads up against the overpair? That is my worst case scenario which is why I used in in the example. When I flop my set, I want one pair hands chasing me. I don't particularly want straights and flushes chasing me, but I don't mind to much as I'll make money over time from them. They are chasing and 2-1 to get there by the river, and that doesn't count my redraws against them. That means, I'm making money on every bet they call, though not as much as from worse hands.
We can all make up nightmare scenarios. Bottomline, getting 10-1 for 1 bet with pocket 44's is a big moneymaker overtime. Read Backdoor's post for Mason's take on the issue.
Pat Charlton
Pat: My comments are by the stars
As you say, you are calling because the price is right. Saying that, you agree with the basic premise of calling with 44's getting 10-1 or whatever it was. Once you flop the set, you certainly won't be losing to an overpair 80% of the time, so that 80% number is meaningless.
****** The 80% is based on the number of times you play a smaller pair against a bigger pair in a heads up situation. It is not meaningless. We need to have other players in the hand to increase the payoff if we hit. * * * * **
Who says you want to be heads up against the overpair? That is my worst case scenario which is why I used in in the example. When I flop my set, I want one pair hands chasing me. I don't particularly want straights and flushes chasing me, but I don't mind to much as I'll make money over time from them. They are chasing and 2-1 to get there by the river, and that doesn't count my redraws against them.That means, I'm making money on every bet they call, though not as much as from worse hands.
***** The point is we call the SB raise BTF on the premise no one will raise behind us. We are saying the same thing different ways. You have the correct implied odds with 5 players in the hand. You are correct when the set is flopped, over-pair chasers are what we want. Forget the set for a minute. Let me give you a different twist. Let's say the SB only has AK, but we miss the set. Flop is T 6 2 rainbow. What then? If he checks, do we bet? If he bets, do we raise? I think the answer is yes in both cases. But, you would be shocked how many players either call or fold here if the SB bets. They get so wrapped up in getting a set, they miss everything else. *******
Bottomline, getting 10-1 for 1 bet with pocket 44's is a big moneymaker overtime.
**** It is a + EV play, but not as large as you think. ******
Fold without question. you have only four clean outs, and even then, there are going to be redraws, plus you could already be nearly dead if someone has 89. A four doesn't help you that much, it only gives you a ten out draw, which still might not be good if it hits (what if someone has two pair, a four comes on the turn, then they fill on the river, giving you the worst full house). Fold and be done with it.
Dave in Cali
What do you think about pre-flop?
with 4 callers plus the BB, that's 5 players to collect bets from post flop, which is more than enough, especially since he's already halfway in. In loose games, I will typically play any pair from any position anyway, so being out of position is not that big of a deal, certainly not enough to make me want to fold. Also, small pairs are pretty easy to get away from if you miss the flop, which makes me even more inclined to call, especially getting 5 way action.
I am just starting out at 7 card stud. I read Roy West's book and have studied it well. I also have read Slansky SCSAP but do not have the concepts down well. Any advice on what limit and what further books are helpful would be appreciated. I figured I start at $1-3 for starters. Thanks.
For now I would say put SCSAP on the shelf and follow Roy West, if you want to be a winner at low limit.
After a few months take out SCSAP and re-read it. The concepts are good, but if you do not have a solid foundation, you will lose trying to impliment the advice, especially at low limits. SCSAP is geared toward higher level play and you won't find much high level play at low limit stud.
Mike
Dan,
Try 7 Card Stud,the Waiting Game by George Percy. This is a good read which will cost you about $10. It's not as exciting as a good dance club on Friday night but the techniques and verbiage are very cut and dried, easy to understand. A must-have for your poker library.
Regards, Mike
Let's say you open raise with AKo and get only the (unknown) BB calling.
The flop is ragged, no ace, no king. BB checks, you bet BB calls. The turn misses you. BB bets. What do you do? I usually fold in this situation. If the BB checks, I usually check it through then call the river. Does this sound right? What if the BB check-raises the flop? I usually call, then fold to a bet on the turn if I miss.
Can someone talk about how to play AKo heads up when you have nothing. What if you have 2 opponents? What about heads up when you are out of position?
Thanks, tom
I wouldn't check it through. I may check and hopefully throw in a raise to make BB think about what you could be holding. Then I would also play and fold.
I think most important is not being mechanical in your play in this situation. Otherwise you will donate.
I a of the opinion that in this situation if the BB has something he will bet it. If not, you are letting BB play for free in the hopes he will outdraw you. jmo
Mike
Player in early position, who is fairly new to the table, bets all the way through the turn. I have a flush draw, and position, and am calling his power (can't remember if he raised pre-flop or not) because I don't think he's drawing to beat my draw. Another player is calling along with me. Mostly high cards are out, but no straight yet.
River is the 6 offsuit, which pairs me, so nothing big is out there other than 2 large overcards and one medium overcard. I immediately look at the bettor, who then looks up at me in a somewhat challenging way(in my read, anyway). I immediately surmise that he doesn't have a strong hand, if a hand at all (isn't this one of Mike's classic tells?)
He checks, the other caller checks, and I briefly thinking about betting my pair (either to drive him and/or the checker out, which may be possible, or to bet my winner), but decide the other checker may have something.
The bettor, checker and I all have busted draws. The 6 paired the bettor and I, but my kicker beat his.
Should I have bet the river? If i had been raised, I would have dumped... and therefore was susceptible to a bluff.
You can't bet the river here. You should only bet the river if:
1) You can possibly make a better hand fold.
or
2) You can get a worse hand to call.
Neither of those seem very likely to me. Just check it through.
I would gladly check down the pair of sixes here. It is not very likely that a better hand will fold, and also not very likely that a worse hand will call, so you have little reason to bet the river. I would use his tell to call if he had bet, but that's it, and I probably wouldn't have overcalled if the other guy called. Also, you were susceptible to a bluff-RAISE, not a bluff, since you would have called if he bet. Bluff-raises are pretty darn rare, so I wouldn't even concern myself with that.
Dave in Cali
Generally speaking, what sort of hands should you be raising with on the button after a single limper? Of course it depends where and who the limper is. To simplify things, let's say a very weak player limping from the middle. What hands should you just call with?
tom
vague question Tom, there are many variables but i think i know where you are coming from..
a limper rarely folds so it may be worth to have something..... lets say i think the sb, bb are likely to fold a raise, i would want to get one to one with him with lets say a minimum of q-t or a medium pair.
i generally never call here (unless slow playing a hand for whatever reason), never call with 7-8, 6-7 or 9-T etc these will kill your bankroll. maybe A-little suited is worth a call? but even this is worth a raise to check out the blinds.
also,
how weak is the player.. is he playing by the book?, will he call from a general mid-position hand (8-8 for example) or will he call with lets say j-5 suited..... there are many variations to this but let me just suggest this, if you raised how unhappy would you be if the sb or bb reraised? this should keep you tight enough to get you by. Note: Always monitor the two people to your left and how you think they will react to your actions.
all the best
Droopy
Wanted to get some feed back on a hand I had this weekend in a 3-6-12 game. I am dealt QsQh and I am in the small blind. 4 limpers and I reraise. BB calls and so does everyone else. 6 handed. Flop is AdQd6d. I bet. BB calls and one other. Turn is a rag. I bet BB calls the other guy folds. River is the Qc giving me the quads. I bet 12 and the BB calls. Player says "the river gave you the fullhouse didn't." I flip over me pocket Q's and start raking the pot. She flipped over AdKd. I stayed in the hand after the flop because I never got re-raised. I would think that a nut flush would raise after the turn. Should I have checked the turn and seen if anybody bet the flush or was betting the right move.
You should've thanked your lucky stars that you won in a crooked game with two Aces of diamonds...
Assuming that was a typo, I think you played well there, even betting the turn. If the nut flush is going to let you draw to full/quads cheaply, she deserves what she gets.
Sorry about the typo. She did have the AKd. The flop was the Q62d. We played about 35hrs between friday 7pm and Sunday 12pm
"I stayed in the hand after the flop because I never got re-raised."
You couldn't get re-raised, I assume you meant raised. But even if you get raised, and even if you know opponent has a flush, you cannot fold. You draw to your set.
You were up against an extremely conservative opponent. You should not have checked the turn. If you get raised, you still have outs to beat a flush. Don't let them have a free card to a flush draw.
Nice river card! Had I been your opponent, you would have won 3 bets from me on the river.
Of course you have to bet, checking the turn would be downright terrible. Since you never got raised, you had no reason to believe that anyone already had a flush, so you have to bet to charge them to draw against you, since you probably have the best hand. Besides that, you would still have to go to the river here anyway, what were you going to do, fold on the flop if you were raised? Flopping a set gives you a great draw if you beaten on the flop, plus you don't have to worry about higher straights or flushes, and the chance of running into a higher full house is usually quite slim. Even if you don't make the boat or quads, I would call the river unless a fourth diamond showed up.
i am heading to Denver for business next week. Any recommendations as to which poker rooms to play
I used to live in Denver until I moved to Oregon a year ago. Where everyone goes is to a place called Blackhawk, which is also side by side with a town called Central City. When you get to Denver just take Hwy 6 West or I-70 West and it is about an hour drive up there through a canyon. It is a little tricky to find in spots so I would just get a map and look west of Denver for Central City/Blackhawk or ask one of the locals how to get there. The place is always packed, people go up there all the time. Unfortunately do to Colorado Law you can't get any mid limit poker games there, it is all 2-5 dollar spread limit on all four rounds of betting (no increase on turn and river). This has its advantages though, if you want to drive people out preflop it is easier to do that there, you can through in 7 bucks when everyone wants to limp for 2, and bet straight five on the flop right out of the box, etc.
There a lots of casinos (dozens) all crammed together in the canyon there, you can play poker at at least 7 or 8 of them. A very popular place I used to play there is called "The Lodge", that is in Blackhawk when you come in, they also have poker at "Central Station" in Blackhawk, also just as you come in. Up in Central City (further up the hill on the other side of Blackhawk), they have "Harvey's", but the Lodge has the most rooms, the poker room is up on the 2nd floor of the main casino. There are a lot of fish there in the games, they are VERY loose aggressive, classic no fold 'em hold 'em. It is fun and definitely worth it, especially since it is not much of a drive, just a lot of curves through the canyon. Anyway I hope you have fun, take advantage of that spread limit up there! It is all 2-5 no matter where you go, but people are so loose you can still get some pretty decent pots. If you look up Blackhawk and Central City on the Internet, or one of those casinos, you might get a map or something online, who knows. -Tim
black 10s in the cutoff seat. Loose 4-8 game.
UTG raises, four callers, I decide to just call since UTG seems to be declaring a high pair, blinds call.
red 8s and the 6 of clubs on the flop.
UTG bets, 1 caller, I raise to test the water, blinds fold, UTG reraises (uh oh), caller folds, I call. Raiser seems to be confirming high pair or maybe an 8 (not likely) possibly 2 eights or 2 sixes.
8 of spades on the turn. Raiser checks, she may have high pair which leaves me only two outs. Definitely not an eight. Possibly two sixes. I bet.
Blank on river. Raiser checks. I bet and she calls with 2 sixes. I win.
Interesting hand. Would like comments on my thought processes and play.
Why do you sat UTG is declaring a high pair (pre-flop)? She raised and you assume she has a high pair? How about AK, AQ, KQs, 99?
The reason you don't re-raise pre-flop is the 4 cold callers in between you and the original raiser. If you can get heads up against a raiser then a re-raise is fine, if not just call.
I think you played the hand fine. What would you have done had she check raised the turn?
Thanks for the comments. Obviously I was wrong in initially reading a high pair. Didn't know the players well.
I would have been very suspicious of a check raise on the turn, since she couldn't know whether or not I had the 8, and her preflop bet made an 8 in her hand very unlikely.
4-8 Bellagio Friday Afternoon:
Pretty Juicy game - one guy who probably has never played before buy in for $500, and whittle through his entire stack in about 2 1/2 hours... unfortunately, i am in a FROZEN run of cards, and am unable to take a single chip of it... anyway - the following hand comes up:
I am in late position with 7-8 of spades. Two callers to me, i call, as does the button and the blinds - no raises - so far so good - 6 players, i get to see the flop for a single bet.
Flop 8-7-7 Rainbow.....wow... i'm psyched. First player bets, second folds, and i smooth call, fearing a raise will force the 3 remaining players to fold. Two callers behind me (both blinds). Now four players in the pot
Turn: 3 of clubs, making 2 clubs on the board.
First player checks, now i have to bet. Small blind calls, and big blind folds. First bettor folds, so i'm heads up with the small blind.
I'm hoping a club falls, and the small blind (flush draw perhaps?) will make his hand.
River is the Jack of Clubs, making the board
8-7-7-3-J, with 3 clubs... I love the card - but i grimace, sigh, and "reluctantly" bet out. The SB raises me, and i fell like i've suckered him into betting his flush.... I reraise, and he thinks for a second before re-raising again.... At this point i probably should have opened my eyes, but i hadn't considered that he might not have a flush - this was 4-8 after all, not 40-80, but still, the river usually isn't raised like this...
I reraise, putting the 5th bet in, proud of myself for having suckered this flush into a raising war.... The SB thinks for about 15 seconds and says "I'll call you"
I show my sevens full of eights, and he shows his pocket jacks - for jacks full of sevens.... Ouch - it was a Mikey vs. Teddy KGB moment - i never saw it coming. No preflop raise from him, no flop raise, i was completely blind to the possibility of his bigger full house....
So my questions is this: Other than putting in the fifth bet (my SECOND RE-RAISE) on the river - which in retrospect, was a fairly obvious mistake that showed my opponent a complete lack of respect, did i make a mistake in slowplaying the flop?
I think if i had raised the flop, only the SB with his pocket J's would have called - and he would have called again when i bet the turn...
I am a sometimes victim of this situation. Whenever the board pairs and you think you have the best hand, pinch yourself...unless it pairs aces and you have one.
Any of the other cards may make someone a full house as you found out. I play these hands cautiously.
I think you played the flop just fine. No need to raise yet.
Anders
I think you played fine until the river, where you then were disconnected from your brain for a few brief moments. Your brain was reconnected when the "retrospect" rolled around. Bet the river, if you get raised, reraise, but if you get reraised again, just call. Pretty standard procedure for your hand if you think about it. In low limit games (hell, in ALL games, but ESPECIALLY low limit), many players don't play hands like you would "expect" them to. They don't raise with AK or big pocket pairs, they don't raise the flop with top pair, top kicker, or an overpair, they play like "stoopy poopy scaredy beavers" with "kick me" signs on their backs, and check-and-call the whole way. However, when the all of a sudden wake up and make it four bets on the river, you should consider that they may actually have a hand.
Dave in Cali
p.s. anyone get the reference?
Tough break.
I don't understand the flop action, because you say "First player bets, second folds, and i smooth call, fearing a raise will force the 3 remaining players to fold. Two callers behind me (both blinds)". How can the blinds be behind you? They must have checked the flop. I am assuming here that the blinds checked the flop, the first player past the blinds (under the gun or UTG) bet, you called, the button folded and the blinds called.
One thing to think about:
When I play with players who check/call or smooth call a paired flop and then bet out when a non-coordinated card hits my hand flies into the muck in a heartbeat. This is a classic slowplay and it is extremely obvious. I understand you want to maximize your profit but the key to slowplaying is deception. Betting out when a non-coordinated card hits ruins any deception you might have. I am not 100% convinced it was not correct in this situation but if you make a habit of this it may affect your action (assuming your opponents are half paying attention).
In this case you only call and so do 2 others, so you maybe induced 2 small bets from the blinds. Do you think you could have gotten more by raising? Many LL players will check cold-call an 887 flop with T9, JT, 96, any 8, even A7. I would tend to raise the flop. I can assume I am getting one small bet from the bettor and might get a cold call from the blinds if they have a good draw. Plus, it is my experience that many LL players assume everyone slowplays and will not give me credit for a big hand, thinking I am semi-bluffing or flat out bluffing. To me, its worth risking one small bet on the chance I get a cold call from someone drawing dead (or very slim).
Of course, in my scenario it probably gets checked to me on the turn and I would bet again and hope to be called down by a worse hand or a draw. Then I bet/raise the river, only stopping at 4 bets, when I probably beat.
Basically, for a slowplay to work you need a second best hand/great draw in there. In LL, most of those will call 2 on the flop and one on the turn. I think your JJ would have done this. It is my opinion that the slowplay actually saved you money (but would have made you more hand you won).
If you raise the flop and win it on the turn, you probably weren't going to get much action anyway. Be happy you flopped a boat and won a pot.
Comments?
KJS
I agree with a lot of the previous comments, and wanted to add a couple more thoughts.
When I have a good to great hand, but not the pure nuts, then I want to take that pot down asap. I don't want to see an opportunity where a call that could beat me becomes correct. So I make my betting reflect that objective. Sometimes, its better to risk losing a bet or two and winning now, rather than getting more dough in the pot and losing later.
In your case, the player with JJ seems like the classic "calling station" and he probably thought he had top hand after the flop and was probably in for the river regardless, to pull for his FH. And your tough beat was the result.
When I get in real passive games like this, I bet so as to figuratively be jumping up on my seat and screaming "look I just had a monster flop." And I will not change until someone recognizes this and adjusts. Then once I detect that they have adjusted, I have the advantage in now being able to change.
Most of the time, they never do adjust, and so you take some tough beats and have to grin and bear it.
If it will make you feel any better, last session I was dealt pocket AA twice within 30 minutes, flopped the set both times, bet them both by the book before and on the flop, and lost both hands on the river card, one with a "mirac" draw. No kidding, this really happened about 10 days ago.
Hi Gang,
Had a good weekend at my home court and would like to tell you about a very interesting hand. First, I'll try to give you an accurate picture about my main opponent in this hand.
My opponent was an older lady, probably in her mid 50s. She had sat down maybe 1/2 hour ago with a rack ($100) and had proceeded to build it up over $200. I hadn't been catching many playable hands in that last 1/2 hour and pretty much stayed out of her path until now. I've played with her a few times before and had a pretty good read on her betting habits. She would open-raise with any 2 cards 10 or better. She would also raise any pair TT or better as well as AJo or better from any position. She would reraise any raiser preflop with JJ or better and AKs. Post-flop she would raise any bettor with as little as top pair, good kicker or a big draw.
The game is 3-6 holdem 9 handed. My opponent is UTG+3 and I am in the SB with KK (black). The field folds to her and she predictably open-raises to 6. The field folds to the button who cold calls her. I 3 bet her from the small blind. BB calls 2 cold. She caps the betting and we all come along 4 handed for 4 bets apiece.
Flop comes KJ5 with 2 diamonds (KJ are diamonds)
Marvelous... I bet out expecting her raise. BB calls and she does not disappoint. Button folds... I 3 bet and fold the BB, she 4 bets. The interesting thing is that after she put her money in, I said 5 bets. She looks at me and says that she did not mean to 4 bet... she meant only to call. At the casino I play, they have the black line which commits you once your chips break the plane. She pleads with the dealer but to no avail... she calls the 5 bet. We're heads up on the turn.
Turn comes A of spades.
Not the card I wanted to see... I bet out she flat calls (?!?).
The river is a horrible card... A of diamonds.
I groan as silently as I can inside, but my eyes cannot believe what the dealer has put out. She bets out of turn before I can even check. I look at her and say "I guess I check." I call.
Results to follow... in the meantime see what you guyz and galz think about my overall play of the hand. I don't think anyone would check the turn after committing 9 total SB already... I don't even think that's an option. How about the check on the river when the 2nd Ace comes? Would there be more benefit to bet the scary board in this case?
Thanx again for your responses, and see if you can put my opponent on her hand.
Mike
You did all you could. Running aces is a worse case scenario for this hand. She probably has AK.
I think you wound up playing it just fine. You definitely needed to call on the river, with 15+ BB already in the pot. The only real question is whether or not a raise is in order....
Given your read on her, you're making the assumption that she has two big cards when she opens with the raise. When she caps it before the flop, you're now reading her for a pair JJ or better, or possibly AK. (I'm going to eliminate AJ based on your implied statement that she wouldn't reraise with that.)
On the flop, she raises you. She could be holding AK -- top pair, top kicker, or (more likely) JJ for the set. QQ is doubtful, as she probably wouldn't have gotten into a raising war with a King on the board. AA is still possible. Big draws -- at this point, you haven't seen the Ad, so in some of the games I play in you might think there's a chance she's holding AdQ for the gutshot nut straight draw with backdoor flush possiblities, but given your read, you have to eliminate it.
When an Ace comes on the turn, her call (rather than raise) in a heads-up pot means she almost certainly doesn't have AA. You have to suspect that she would have raised with AK -- top two pair -- as well. (Though this depends on your table image. She may be correctly reading you for a set.) I think JJ is probably the most likely holding at this point.
When she immediately fires away at the river Ace, you have to figure it's not a complete bluff, given that you've been betting the whole way. I think she's just made Jacks full, and is reading you for fives full. You have to suspect she can beat a flush, but I think that with AK or AA, she would have raised on the turn. Unless she's got a very good read on you....
Why would she raise the turn with top two but not a set? It makes no sense.
Sincerly, Andreas
Her "obvious" holding is AK, but i'm going to go ahead and put her on the QdTd for the Royal Flush!
Mike
Thanx for the responses as always...
RK had a pretty good read on her... she turns up JJ for Jacks full and I breathe a huge sigh of relief. I was almost certain the she had AK as the others thought.
Felt this was an interesting hand... hope everyone else who read did as well.
Comments welcome as always, Mike
Andreas brought up a good point about not raising on the turn with the set vs. raising with AK. I've seen this happen numerous times at lower limits. Mike N's play up to the turn gave pretty good evidence that he might have a big pair in the hole; she may have been afraid that the A on the turn gave him a set of Aces, (or possibly a straight if he flopped an open-ended 4-straight), beating her Jacks. Aces can be very scary if you're not holding one. If, OTOH, she's holding AK, she knows that he's less likely to be holding AA or KK for the set, so she might raise with top two pair (though it wouldn't help her against the possible straight).
My first thought when reading this was the same as mike -- Qd-Td for the open-ended straight flush draw on the flop. But from Mike N's description of the player, I didn't think she'd go to war before the flop with QT suited.
The real question is what the heck did she think Mike had? The only thing I can think of is she put him on a flush, QT, or 55. She apparently thought she had him beat, so she wasn't expecting AA, KK, or AK.
Anyway, glad to hear you had a successful result!
Hey everyone,
This is a situation that happens to me all the time. OK. In a typical loose passive/aggressive 3/6 game, say you have KJo two off the button, one MP limps, you call, and the a typical not-so-good low limit player behind you raises, and say one blind calls. Flop is lets say, K87r. Now what do you do? I don't like the idea of checking to the raiser and calling on each betting round, provided the turn and the river seems to help no one. I also don't want to fold on the flop or the turn, but maybe on the river. So, what's the best play? If you bet out on the flop, he'll probably raise you regardless of what you have, often to check the turn. I don't think a checkraise really works either because players don't always reraise you with AK,AA,and the like, and you won't be able to get a much of a read, at least not for cheap. What I've been trying these days is check and call the flop, and bet out the turn if it's a blank. If he calls, I check the river, and fold to his bet probably half the time. If he raises me, I just fold. I figure that he wouldn't bet the river unless he has a very good hand, or better kicker. Is there a better way to play these hands? I seem to be in these situations an awful lot. Please help! Thanks.
KJo two off the button, one MP limps, you call, and the a typical not-so-good low limit player behind you raises, and say one blind calls
Consider raising one loose/weak limper here.
Flop K-8-7, Now what do you do?
BET!
I also don't want to fold on the flop or the turn, but maybe on the river.
NO! Unless all hell breaks loose, or a 4 straight or 4 flush hit the board, get to the showdown.
If you bet out on the flop, he'll probably raise you regardless of what you have, often to check the turn.
Good, his raise will force the blind and limper out unless they have something.
If he calls, I check the river, and fold to his bet probably half the time.
Don't fold for one more bet on the river. Your check shows weakness and just begs for you to be bluffed. You must call. Also, by checking here you make him think *any* King is good.
If he raises me[turn bet], I just fold.
OK against some players.
I figure that he wouldn't bet the river unless he has a very good hand, or better kicker. Is there a better way to play these hands?
Top pair is usually worth a river bet, especially heads up when checked to.
You are "figuring" too much about unknown opponents. Unless you know your opponent very well, don't be making folds like this, especially for 1 bet.
nate
Intoxicated,
I believe the strategy you described is probably the worst course of action.
you must bet the flop. If you are raised, then you must decide at that point to call, fold or reraise.
Its quite likely that the button's raise could be an informational raise, a raise to buy a free draw (draw at his possible ace) on the turn or just a maniac being a maniac.
Depending on the player, I would be inclined to fold if the betting is capped. If the button only calls, bet it out unless you are raised again, which then you could just fold.
I think your strategy has some other inherent flaws.
First of all an initial check will induce the button to bet hands like 99,TT,JJ etc - believing that you do not have a K. Once the betting begins - it usually does not stop on the river- since the raiser has now probably put you on A8s. (giving you middle pair with an overcard draw)
Finally, waiting for the river to fold is a financially draining activity. Bet or fold - dont be a call station - hanging around for the river is what will kill you in the long run.
Just my opinion
Good luck
I really don't like your play here. I would not call the turn unless I intended to call the river unimproved. Why spend a 1.5 BB to fold at the show down?
Typically, I would bet the flop, and I would hope the preflop raiser would raise. This puts pressure on the other people in the pot, and I have increased my chances of winning the pot. I would call the raise and check the turn hoping that it gets checked through. If it does get checked through and a blank hits the river I would bet about 1/3 of the time and check 2/3 of the time depending on the player. I would call the river bet, but I would usually fold to a raise. Because I tend to fold to the raise, I tend not to bet. I want to get to the show down because it is the only way to win the pot (kind of).
I kind of like your play of check calling the flop and then betting the turn. The problem is that you will often have to worry about other people in the pot, not just the preflop raiser.
Just My Thoughts,
Derrick
I agree with Bubmack in how the hand should be played. bet the flop, and from there on it's very player dependent.
If you are often finding yourself in this situation you have a problem. You need to tighten up. There's nothing wrong with playing KJo from late position in a typical low limit game, but if the game is generally aggressive only play it suited.
If this is happening to you often though, you need to look at your hand selection. I get the feeling your playing weak aces and weaker kings. (?)
Definitely bet the flop and reraise if they raise. Get your information on the cheap street and put pressure on them if they are overplaying QQ, JJ, TT or AQ.
If they cap the flop I would check-fold the turn.
If they call the flop I would bet the turn. If they fold, great.
If they call the turn I would check-call the river against most opponents and bet into people who can't dump a hand.
KJS
When the board pairs up at a loose-aggressive $3-6 table on the flop, what is the best course of action to take with an overpair? I'm in early position, I believe UTG, and I got pkt. 9's. Sometimes I would've have dumped this hand right there pre-flop, but I guess I'd seen enough action from players at my table playing absolute junk like 73o, 52s, etc., so I called. At any rate there were 4 callers and the flop came 4,4,6 rainbow. I bet, one guy folds, a new guy who just sat down raises, one more folds and the button cold calls. At this point I don't really know what to do. The person who cold called the raise has been playing 80% of his hands to the turn, so I'm not at all intimidated by his cold call. I knew that if I called and the turn brought nothing, I'd most definitely fold if the raiser bet again on the turn. So I folded the 9's right there. Turned out to be a mistake... The raiser won it with 8 6o! I'd never felt so stupid in my life.
Most low limit players would've slowplayed a 4 on the flop, so when you bet and get raised i would put the raiser on A6s or an overpair. What would worry me more than the raiser is the caller, but since you said you weren't worried about the caller, I would've reraised the flop.
Mike
This is a situation where knowledge of your opponent is extremely important. If he's a typical passive player who suddenly jumps alive with a raise, get out. If he's a tyipcal agressive player who you've seen make plays like this before, re-raise. Of course you also need to beware of other opponents. If the player between you and him calls his raise AND your raise, you're dead to the remaining nines, I guarantee it.
spanQy
I think a muck is ok. There is a reasonable chance you aren't best right now, and even if you are, you are out of position, and the turn and river are more likely to hurt you than help you.
I would like to know if I am playing too tight. I was playing in a 3-6 game yesterday, holding AQ offsuit in late position. By the time the action gets to me the betting is already capped! I throw away my AQ for fear of being dominated by AA or AK. Would anybody call the 4 bets with that hand? Turns out I would have won it in the end with queens top kicker. In fact the guy who capped the betting was holding J 9 offsuit.
AQo was the subject of a great deal of discussion a little while back. John Feeney, in his excellent book, has a little essay on why you should fold AQo for a single raise. You are dominated by an awful lot of the hands that most people raise with. Typical raising hands are groups 1-3, and AQo is at the very bottom of group 3. Against a typical raiser, I'll muck AQo without a second thought. Against a loose aggressive type, I'll three-bet. I've also recently started mucking AKo when it's three bets to me. It's saved me from some very expensive second-best hands. What you need to realize is that there are no good hands. There are only good situations. Having AQo when it's capped in front of you is not a good situation.
since 3/6 is all about multiway and winning big pots, i think you could have called if it was suited. but you need to understand what youre doing more than whether its a good call/fold or whatever.
brad
You made the correct play. It appears you might be in one of those wonderful, wild, low-limit games. In these games you can afford to sit there and wait for hands like AKs, AA, KK, and QQ. In fact, I'd recommend ONLY playing those hands in a game like this. You're going to make more on these 4 hands then you will blind off in the long run. AQo is really only good against 1-2 players or 7-8 players(with no raise, of course, because you're hoping to hit the straight or top 2).
spanQy
In crazy wild games like that, playing suited connectors is profitable from late position.
This can happen a lot in loose low limit games. Toss the AQo in the muck and don't think twice about it. If you aren't occassionally throwing away the best hand, you aren't playing tight enough.
Against your typical REASONABLE players, I would fold it for three bets without a second thought, and four bets is preposterous! Against a tight player with relatively high raising requirements, I will fold it for a single raise, i.e. the "AQ Test". However, against maniacs or loose raisers, I will often three bet them if they raise. I don't think you made any mistake here, despite the result. Your adjustment should be to reconsider what these particular opponents might have when they raise.
You did the right thing. In fact, throw away A-Ko in such a situation. There are times you would have won if you played 7-2, this doesn't mean you weren't right to muck it pre-flop.
Hi all,
I was playing a paradise $3-6 hand the other night when this came up. I had 77 in the sb. Everyone folded to the button who raised. I reraised to get it heads up and the BB cold called. Button capped it, me and BB calls.
flop is 446 rainbow. I check planning on checkraising to get cold caller out behind me. Button bets, I raise, cold caller calls again, button calls. Turn is a T.
This is where I messed the hand up. I checked to the button who bet, and I FOLDED. What the hell did I do that for? The pot was huge. How would you guys play this hand? My reasoning at the time was that the cold caller "obviously" had some type of decent pocket pair. Unfortunately, I had just sat down not too long ago and did not know the players.
Anyway, the cold caller called the turn bet.
River was a Q making the board 446[T][Q]
Button bet again and cold caller called. They both showed down AK and split the pot. This would have been almost a $100 swing for me. Talk about a big error.
Flame away. Any advice appreciated.
Jeff Gomberg
First off, I don't think your mistake was in folding on the turn necessarily (ignoring this specific result- i'm talking general strategy for the future) in this situation.... but since I don't know Paradise play very well, i'm making assumptions also.
If you didn't know the players, and weren't assuming they were ALL idiots from the get-go, how could have any comfort in assuming that a re-raiser AND a two-time cold caller pre-flop didn't have overpairs? TT, JJ and QQ are possible here for the BB, facing a raise twice (one possible stealer, one SB reraise), and certainly AA/KK.
I wouldn't put the button on JJ/10's with the reraise, especially with your raise out of position, and AK would have been my lesser read (not knowing the players)
I don't think I could put BOTH players on AK off, given the situation- especially since you just started- which means it's tough to know where you are from the flop to the end. Where do you get beaten?
If the button or the BB did have a big hand, what implied cost were you facing when overcards came?
I think your mistake was calling the second reraise pre-flop myself, but I'm pretty conserative initially until I can find out how aggressively stupid the players are.
Your implied odds preflop are shot to hell, with only two opponents and a double raise out there... and all of your aggressiveness taken away unless you can flop trips.
Again, just my two cents.
Also, you didn't say (but I assumed in the negative from your post) a) if the 10 was also rainbow b) Both AK were not single suited.
Sometimes early position has an advantage. On the flop the button just called your last bet, he showed weakness. For all the button knows you called with A/4 suited and flopped a set. Continue to bet, do not let the over cards scare you off. If your opponent raises on the turn, then you have a decision to make. In low limit some players think Ace King is the nuts.
No way you can fold to the 2nd reraise. When hero reraises the button raise and BB cold calls both, and button caps, there are 10 bets in the pot. For certain the BB will call the cap putting 11 bets in the pot and no more raises.
You are 7.5 to 1 to flop a set, getting 11-1 on the call. Plus, all the raising and calling make it possible there is a big pair out there, certainly high cards. Your implied odds are big. You don't get many overlays like that in poker, and folding is a big mistake.
Lets say you call the bet, fold if you don't hit the set, and even if you hit the set, both opponents could see you hand and would fold on the flop.
7.5 times X $3 = loss of $22.5 1 time you win 11 bets: $33. Net is $10.5 for a $1.24 mistake each time you fold in this situation. This under extreme and unrealistic assumptions against you. If there is more betting after the flop when you hit the set, you'll win at least 2/3rds of that money, so your win rate will only go up.
Pat Charlton
Good point.
As I said, however, I personally would probably dump it pre-flop, find out how the players play first. If they're that aggressive now, they will be again and that overlay will appear again.
My problem is that the implied odds also commit you to at least the turn, unless a raising war breaks out. Not knowing what the flop was gonna be, you're risking getting far behind pretty early in the session... which starts the buzzards circling.
Of course, I wouldn't have raised the 77 pre-flop either, that early into the session... cause as you said, it's low limit and BB might just ride it out (therefore, no isolation of button raiser)
Easy E,
It can't be that wrong to just fold to the button's raise when you hold 77's in the SB, and it certainly would cut down on your variance. I can't fault you there.
If you do raise, and are re-raised, then I do think it is a pretty easy call as I've said. You mentioned in your post that the implied odds would take you to the turn.
I disagree. With 2 players cold calling raises and putting in their own, there is a good chance you are up against a big pair. Certainly there are some implied odds, but not near enough to take you to the turn. You are 7.5-1 to flop a set on the flop and once you hit, you will win more money than you lose on future bets, so 10-1 is plenty good.
Once you miss the set, you are getting 11-1 on your first call of a flop bet. You are 22-1 (roughly) to catch the 4 on the turn. That's a lot of bets to pick up in two rounds. So, no, I don't think you have implied odds to call a bet on the flop if you miss the set.
Pat
It's NOT just a matter of hopefully hitting a set and getting callers. It's a) Hitting the TOP set, to allow you to take advantage fully
b) Not getting "over-setted" on the turn or the river, when one or two overcards come (as they did here, although not the correct ones in this example), so you can take full advantage of the flop.... much LESS of getting oversetted on the flop, with a greater than 50% chance for overcards to come out then...
To use pot odds to justify an overplayed hand is, IMHO, a very dangerous concept. Why not raise EVERY time, and call EVERY reraise, with hands that can achieve odds only through your initial large investment forcing the pot that high?
If you have 44 in middle position, and a total of four raises have gone in AND been called by 7 other players by the time it wraps back around to you, are you calling that final 2 bets? You're getting ~17-1 to flop that set you're looking for...
What do you think the odds of winning ARE for that set of fours that you paid so dearly for? I'd need a lower card to pair, or the case 4, to feel as if I had ANY chance... and that lower pair probably screwed me anyway.
Unless i'm completely off base here (because of the low-level Paradise reputation?), it's not just getting your cards, but getting cards that can 1) win the showdown (or earlier) and 2) make more money when they hit ... which are the keys to profiting from these types of situations.
That's why low pairs are NOT considered strong in aggressive games, because of the implied COST and the lack of POWER (betting- and staying-) that they usually have.
I'll give you a personal example of the danger of low trips- playing shorthanded one night (4 players). I get Ax offsuit and raise after UTG mucks. SB calls. Flop is 44A. SB had a 4 and leads out, I call. Turn is another A (now A44A) and I smooth call. River brought a 7 offsuit, cost the SB 4 extra big bets when she called my second reraise.
Now, if you were the SB, would YOU be happy with that head start you had flopping trips and the full house you ended with? Would any card above a 4 on the turn (or the river if turn still A) make you any more confident?
I look forward to more of your thoughts on this, as I'm still turning this over myself.
I wish I knew how people changed the original message to italics so it is easier to quote from. Anyway...
You wrote: "It's NOT just a matter of hopefully hitting a set and getting callers. It's a) Hitting the TOP set, to allow you to take advantage fully b) Not getting "over-setted" on the turn or the river, when one or two overcards come (as they did here, although not the correct ones in this example), so you can take full advantage of the flop.... much LESS of getting oversetted on the flop, with a greater than 50% chance for overcards to come out then..."
a) If you are waiting for top set to take full advantage you are playing way to tight. Being afraid of monster's under the bed is bad. As Mason has written: "being afraid of set over set is something that many *inexperienced* players have an irrational fear of" [see 9 November 1998], and b) yes, you will sometimes lose with a set. However, I assure you, once you flop a set, over time, you will win more money than you lose on flop, turn, and river betting. I promise, scout's honor.
you wrote: "To use pot odds to justify an overplayed hand is, IMHO, a very dangerous concept. Why not raise EVERY time, and call EVERY reraise, with hands that can achieve odds only through your initial large investment forcing the pot that high?"
I agree, many players use the concept of pot odds to overplay hands, always they aren't calculating the odds correctly. However, when the pot odds make the play correct (i.e., by definition, taking into account reverse implied odds, implied odds, effective odds, etc., correct pot odds means you are making a plus EV decision), avoiding the play because you fear monsters under the bed means you aren't making as much money as you could.
you wrote: "If you have 44 in middle position, and a total of four raises have gone in AND been called by 7 other players by the time it wraps back around to you, are you calling that final 2 bets? You're getting ~17-1 to flop that set you're looking for..."
The sequence is a bit confusing, by calling 2 final bets it implied a cold called a raise in middle position. I would rarely do such as I really can't know there would be seven players involved. However, put me on the button, 7 players, and a capped pot to me it would be close. You aren't getting any overlay in this 7-1 case, and it is 4 bets which brings in variance. Please see a post by Backdoor in "re 6-12 BB question" where he does a great job of recapping Mason's thoughts on this matter. But, in the matter at hand we are talking about ONE small bet that can't be raised, and 11-1 odds. That is juicy for sure. Again, I agree you could safely fold this hand to the first raise and not lose much.
you wrote: "What do you think the odds of winning ARE for that set of fours that you paid so dearly for? I'd need a lower card to pair, or the case 4, to feel as if I had ANY chance... and that lower pair probably screwed me anyway.
Unless i'm completely off base here (because of the low-level Paradise reputation?), it's not just getting your cards, but getting cards that can 1) win the showdown (or earlier) and 2) make more money when they hit ... which are the keys to profiting from these types of situations."
Yes, it is about cards that can win the showdown and make more money when they hit. Trust me, sets, even bottom sets, qualify for both.
you wrote: "That's why low pairs are NOT considered strong in aggressive games, because of the implied COST and the lack of POWER (betting- and staying-) that they usually have."
True. You want to get in cheap, and no set, no bet (or call for that matter). When you can get in cheap, and when the odds are in your favor, these are profitable hands.
you wrote: "I'll give you a personal example of the danger of low trips- playing shorthanded one night (4 players). I get Ax offsuit and raise after UTG mucks. SB calls. Flop is 44A. SB had a 4 and leads out, I call. Turn is another A (now A44A) and I smooth call. River brought a 7 offsuit, cost the SB 4 extra big bets when she called my second reraise."
Ouch, this example doesn't prove anything. SB didn't have a pocket pair (obviously) and called an UTG raise with a hand that held a 4. That is terrible poker. Gets an awesome flop. An A falls on the turn and the SB bets!!! Why? what hand did you call the flop with? Don't you think it might have contained an ace since you raised pre-flop and called the flop bet? Maybe the SB bet to avoid being bluffed. Ok. But then, a blank falls on the river, and SB actually bets again!!!!! What possible hand will you be calling with that doesn't beat him. This is even worse poker. Then he actually raised your re-raise. I would have been faling on the floor laughing while thanking the poker gods for sending me such an obvious imbecile. All your example shows is that flopped trips (2 on board, 1 in hand) are weaker than sets (2 in hand, 1 on board).
you wrote: "Now, if you were the SB, would YOU be happy with that head start you had flopping trips..."
Yes, I would be loving it. Do the math. You had a two outer, and had very little chance of catching up.
you wrote: " ... and the full house you ended with? Would any card above a 4 on the turn (or the river if turn still A) make you any more confident?"
I would have hated the boat as I know I'm beat. Shit happens in poker, but don't give me an example of trips being beat by a two outer to make me fear monsters under the bed. I would have loved holding those 44's vs. your ace on the flop, and I would have mucked on the turn. I'm extremley confident that flopping sets, and even trips, is a huge money winner.
you wrote: "I look forward to more of your thoughts on this, as I'm still turning this over myself."
Thanks, there is nothing wrong with low variance poker. If you wouldn't have 3 bet the button's steal raise, or even cold called, for variance reasons I'm not going to fault you.
However, if somehow you get to a position of facing one bet with a pocket pair, and receiving 10-1 odds, it is unquestionably positive EV. It is also low variance as it is one SB, and muck if you miss. You aren't going to tell me you would fold pocket 77's on the button with all 7 players ahead of you in for one SB are you?
Pat Charlton
"You aren't going to tell me you would fold pocket 77's on the button with all 7 players ahead of you in for one SB are you?"
You're right, italics would be nice- maybe they paste elsewhere, adjust, and drop back... but I doubt it.
I do have to agree with you in principle, given Jeff's original post... and of COURSE i wouldn't dump 77 getting 8-1... but i'd be damn careful with it, even if flopping a set (any serious aggression would slow me down)
I probably overplayed my point (was more thinking out loud than anything) that low to mid-pairs shouldn't be played that strongly if players are unknown, especially early in...
But all of your extra comments have been great. Thanks!
Thanks for the comments so far. The big blind had AK hearts and the button was offsuit. There was one heart on the flop and there weren't two to a suit.
I think the pot is just too big here to fold for one bet vs. an aggressive player. I think I should have bet out on the turn, also, because the button showed weakness by calling my flop checkraise. That's what upset me most about my play. Or I could call it down (pretty weak, though).
I think this hand brings up that position thing again. It's so hard to play marginal hands in bad position. It's especially hard to use this type of play against an unknow opponent (or two) also.
IMHO the mistake was in playing the hand in the first place. You are potentially heads up with a hand where you are either a big dog or a slight favorite and you are out of position.
Throw that hand away and wait for a better situation to gamble with 7's.
After you decided to take a stand, the bb calls and the button caps. You check raise the flop and everybody calls but you still don't know where you're at. I agree your erred when you checked the turn. That is like waving a red flag to the button to take your money - which he did.
You should have bet the turn and check called the river if you're going to play the hand at all.
End of flame.
A lot of times with a medium pair against a steal raise, I will reraise to isolate. Of course, if the BB comes along for the ride and the original "steal" raiser reraises, the play obviously did not work. I think that this play should be used on certain players, but not all. Which kind of players do you want to use this play on? Habitual bluffers, weak calling stations, weak-tight, tight-aggressive?
I think weak-tight is the best obviously cause then you can use this play and anytime they only have overcards or a middle pair, they will most likely fold on the flop.
In the original hand I posted, the reason that this play was a mistake in that situation was becaause I did not know the players at that point. If I knew that the BB was an overdefender and that the button was super aggressive, I don't think I would have played the hand.
What do you do in this situation with a pair (lets say 77) against a steal raise?
". If I knew that the BB was an overdefender and that the button was super aggressive, I don't think I would have played the hand.
What do you do in this situation with a pair (lets say 77) against a steal raise? "
Probably the same thing I would have done without knowing the players (and suspecting some overagressiveness)... assuming I'm not folding because I don't wanna start in the hole (image, and all...) and assuming I know Button= supagressive (i didn't see AK as an "overdefending" blind hand, especially against a potential steal raise, but..)
Call the button raise, don't try to isolate since it won't work. Try to trap them on the flop.
I probably would have bet the flop with a runner straight draw and overpair, rather than check-raise (in case they DID have some sense after all and checked for a free overcard).. then seen what aggression I ran into.
I might or might not have reraised the flop if button raised again (thinking that he put me on a blind hand of sixes over fours... and threatening him with the blind hand of a set. This flop favors the blinds, hands unknown, versus quasi-justified late raising hands)
I probably would have check-called the turn and river if the button and blind remained, although I would lean strongly towards folding when the second overcard came, if extensive aggression occurred.
All in all, Jeff, this was kinda tough to work with, given that you were new to the table. Hopefully you were able to pound them later, with your new knowledge and fresh motivation?
Easy E
I've read a few times that in loose, low limit games, playing suited Ax's are real good money makers, from any position. The reasoning being that a good amount of low limit players will play any two suited cards in hopes for a flush draw. From my limited experience this does seem to be true, since some of the biggest pots I've won have been because of such cards, when one of my opponent also lands the flush. With this in mind why do so many people view cards like 56s, or 68s, as much much better than their unsuited counterparts? For example, even on this site, I saw one person comment on how so and so shouldn't have played their 45o since it wasn't even suited, etc. When playing 5c6c (for example) what kind of flop are we crossing our fingers for? Besides the obvious open-ended straight draw? Suppose the flop comes: 2c 9s Qc Am I supposed to start betting like crazy if I complete the draw? Obviously not, since I'm afraid of people holding cards like Ac3c. And calling all the way without a raise seems valueless. thanks for any advice
I will take a stab at this, but take it as questionable advice. You improve you odds of winning with certain suited cards.
Suited cards can make more hands, and the closer they are in sequence [generaly], the more powerful the hand can become. If you look at two unsuited cards having the possibility of making say 12 possible hands, the same two cards suited can make an additional four or five hands. This paragraph is just for example's sake, so do not take it literally, the nubers are pulled from the ether.
The whole concept is more complex of course, but this should get you headed in the right direction. I am sure better explanations are on the way.
Mike
One thing to think about is the strength of hand that will be likely be required to win. With many people seeing the flop, and with pots that justify being drawn against, you often need to make straights or flushes to win. Sometimes that's not enough. In tight two way action, often a good pair is more than enough to win, and sometimes a high card will do it. It's obvious then that in hands with 5 or 6 way action that suited and connected cards could come in handy for making the flushes or straights you may need to win. In tight shorthanded games you would give more weight to high cards that can make winning pairs.
It's true that these suited connectors can get you in some real trouble, but if played shrewdly and cautiously in these games from appropriate position they should turn a profit. They will never make as much as big pairs, big suited cards, or big unsuited cards.
Just a comment,in low limit, don't play small suited cards, because it is not uncommon to have two people chasing the same suit, In higher limits you are ususally the only one with that suit. Still its hard to make money with low cards. Have a nice day
The significant difference between middle suited and unsuited connectors is that the former are marginally playable outside the blinds and the latter never are.
Ill start off by saying that Im not much of a limit hold em fan. I mainly pot-limit, but I may be able to help out here. Being suited increases the hands value by 6 percent. In my experience with pot-limit Id rather play an unsuited 67 or 45. The reason is because if miss my flop I am less likely to be trapped by the flush draw.
>I've read a few times that in loose, low limit games, playing suited Ax's are real good money makers, from any position.
I wouldn't say that necessarily. It really depends on the game. In a typical loose low-limit game Axs can be very profitable but remember that profitability comes from saving money as much as winning it. Thats why I would recommend playing it in late position, as cheaply as possible. Dump it if you hit the flop badly (e.g. hit an A). Learn to bet draws when it is worthwhile. Train yourself in getting the most out of your opponents when you have the nuts. Think about what you'll do if the board pairs or a straight flush is possible and someone plays back at you. But some of this advice applies only when you're playing against people who aren't just gambling. If your opponents are bad enough then it may be profitable from any position.
>The reasoning being that a good amount of low limit players will play any two suited cards in hopes for a flush draw. From my limited experience this does seem to be true, since some of the biggest pots I've won have been because of such cards, when one of my opponent also lands the flush. With this in mind why do so many people view cards like 56s, or 68s, as much much better than their unsuited counterparts? For example, even on this site, I saw one person comment on how so and so shouldn't have played their 45o since it wasn't even suited, etc. When playing 5c6c (for example) what kind of flop are we crossing our fingers for? Besides the obvious open-ended straight draw? Suppose the flop comes: 2c 9s Qc Am I supposed to start betting like crazy if I complete the draw? Obviously not, since I'm afraid of people holding cards like Ac3c. And calling all the way without a raise seems valueless. thanks for any advice
The main thing with hands like 56s is to realise their potential. Know the correct odds for your draws, and estimate whether the draw is playable. Look out for situations where you end up with the arse-end of a straight (e.g. 789 is on the board), and for boards with 4 or more of your suit that give a flush to someone holding just one flush card. Don't get wild and play it like the nuts if you hit the flush. Its true that typical low-limit players overvalue suited cards but remember theres 4 suits to go around, and if you get the flush only 8 cards left in that suit, so nearly always your hand will be best.
Loose 3-6 game. One EP limper to me, in the middle with pocket aces. I raise, MP behind me 3 bets, LP caps, BB calls, EP calls, I call, MP calls. 5 players, 20 sb.
Flop is T72 rainbow. BB bets, EP raises, I 3-bet, MP folds, LP folds, BB calls, EP calls. 3 players 29sb = 14.5 BB.
Turn is 5, no flush draw. Checked to me, I bet, both call.
River is a T. BB checks, EP bets. I'm getting 18.5-1 on my call, but is there any chance in hell that one of those guys didn't have top pair on the flop? Should I call. I did and felt dumb.
What if it was heads up?
tom
I think you have to call here. The big danger is a raise behind you. But, you have to take the chance. Heads up, you would probably be more inclined to call. If you fold and no one has a ten, this is much worse that losing one bet on the river.
Tom,
"Is there a chance in hell?" Yes.
Is there a 5% chance (roughly what you need to make the call even)? Probably not. But how bad is it?
Here is your nightmare scenario....
98s for UTG & 87s for the BB: Big pot on the flop and the BB tries to pick it up with the little pair. UTG raises with a great draw on the semi-bluff. You 3 bet and they both slow down. BB is getting 26-2 after your raise. Pretty good odds for a 5 outer on a rainbow, unconnected, and Ten high board. On the end, UTG takes a stab when the top card pairs. He certainly won't win by checking.
Sure the above isn't likely, but it can't be much worse than the 18.5-1 the pot is offering you. I call because if the BB calls and they show the above hands (or, god forbit 72s!, though I'm sure there has been many a stuck, bleeding BB fish that has called a capped pot with that monster) I won't sleep for a week. The $1 or $2 it costs in EV is worth the extra sleep.
Pat
For one bet, you have an easy call at 3-6. It's possible that EP has an overpair.
Tom,
"Loose 3-6 game. One EP limper to me, in the middle with pocket aces. I raise, MP behind me 3 bets, LP caps, BB calls, EP calls, I call, MP calls. 5 players, 20 sb."
Don't U hate when that happens with A's and lose the hand!! U try to limit the field and the field explodes behind U!!!
Next Time.
Paul
@ Canterbury CC in MN.
I am posting to the right of the button in a nine-handed 3-6 game. The low-limit games are generally loose and not very tough. I have ATo. There are two middle position callers, I call, SB and BB both call. Flop comes K-Q-x offsuit. SB checks, BB bets, both middle position limpers call. I raise in last position, in hope of a free card on the turn, in hope of a King or an Ace. SB folds, and the other three call. The turn is another rag (board still rainbow), and it is checked around to me, and I check. The river is a King. BB bets, one middle position calls, and I obviously raise. BB calls and middle position folds. The BB does not show his hand but is so angry he yells out a few comments and leaves the table.
Was this hand played correctly?
I don't think you wrote this hand up correctly. If I'm right you may want to repost it. (Note that with AT and a board of KQx another king doesn't do you any good.)
Thank you for finding my error! The board on the flop should have been Q-J-x offsuit. I look forward for a response from you Mason, I have been reading HEPFAP for a few months, although I mainly restrict myself to the lower limit games. Some of the information found in the book, from what I have found, has been helpful in my experience at the tables. I constantly look to improve my game.
Here is the situation again with the correct board.
@ Canterbury CC in MN.
I am posting to the right of the button in a nine-handed 3-6 game. The low-limit games are generally loose and not very tough. I have ATo. There are two middle position callers, I call, SB and BB both call. Flop comes Q-J-x offsuit. SB checks, BB bets, both middle position limpers call. I raise in last position, in hope of a free card on the turn, in hope of a King or an Ace. SB folds, and the other three call. The turn is another rag (board still rainbow), and it is checked around to me, and I check. The river is a King. BB bets, one middle position calls, and I obviously raise. BB calls and middle position folds. The BB does not show his hand but is so angry he yells out a few comments and leaves the table.
Was this hand played correctly?
In general, I don't like raising for a free card when you have a gutshot straight draw. The fact that you also had an overcard and that the board was rainbow make your play a little better, but I still don't really like it. You can't be 100% sure that an ace is a clean out for you, so that takes away from your play somewhat. When you raise with a gutshot, you are putting in twice as much money, which is cutting down on your odds, including your implied odds. You were getting enough (implied) odds to take off a card for one bet, but not getting enough for two bets, and by raising you are putting in two bets, plus you might get reraised anyway.
I like the raise here because of his position. He is putting in 1 extra SB for a possibility at getting to look at 2 free cards on expensive streets. In a more aggressive game this play rarely works however.
Just My Thoughts,
Derrick
I like the play. As long as you are sure the better and/or another player is not going to reraise you, or come out betting the turn. This is very important, because a lot of players are aware of your trick, and this could end up costing you a lot of money over time. In this instance, you didn't get a "free" card. You got a card at half price.
By who? Yourself or your opponents? I think it was a close decision on whether or not to raise on the flop. You do have a draw to the nut straight (4 outs), plus the ace. You also are acting last which is a positive in this case. But, your opponent should have bet the turn to protect his hand assuming he only had a queen. Of course, with a bigger hand he likely would have re-raised on the flop. Your opponents make this play possible by playing soft. As an aside, on the button in a soft game, I feel it is acceptable to raise BTF with AT. It is likely your opponents will check to you if the flop missed them, allows control earlier in the hand.
Your raise on the flop can be correct if you are against players who are now very likely to check to you on the turn. Also notice that with that board catching an ace may not be so hot.
I know that the low limit games at my local card club are generally soft and loose, so I did think that a raise on the flop would earn my my card on the turn for the half price. If I thought that the initial bettor or one of the middle position players would have bet the turn (which would indicate a tougher game), I probably would not have made the play.
I don't think raising here is generally a good idea. I might do it 5% of the time depending on all the other info available. The term "free card" is a misnomer because it's not free at all. It's half price, and that's assuming you don't get reraised on the flop or bet into on the turn. Those are big assumptions. Also, your Ace draw is not necessarily good.
Just calling on the button may arouse enough concern to get you a truly free card, which you need to make this hand profitable. I think folding is a pretty good option too depending on your reads of the other hands and players.
I can't think of a situation where I would fold here. Wouldn't you always have correct odds to call for the gutter? mw
Yes you are probably getting correct implied odds to call, even though you are basically drawing to an 11-1 shot that may end up losing or splitting even if you hit it. It's just that in 3-6 games like this I don't mind seeing newer players (often underbankrolled)leaving a few bets (or fractions of bets?) on the table in favour of playing a low variance, patient game. It wouldn't be terribly unusual to miss this draw 15 or 20 times in a row, which could have a tendancy to put some newer players on tilt.
I like the play if you can get the table to check to you. Two cards can do wonders for your hand.
I like to do this with alot of hands when there is a flush draw present. Say you have 87s on the button and the flop comes Qd 7d 5s. If you raise here, you have alot of cards that can improve your hand. If they don't come on the turn, I like to check it through. If a diamond comes on the river, it is a great card to bluff with if it checks to you, since most of the players will put you on diamonds when you check the turn.
For this to work though, you need to be playing against timid players who won't 3-bet you with the Q.
mail me at buffet79@hotmail.com
I am new to this game of poker, and was wondering what they mean when they say it is a kill, or a half kill game. Thank you, Big R
A kill pot occurs in a kill game; in a kill game, if someone wins two pots in a row (or a pot over a certain dollar amount, depending on the rules of the game), he must post a double blind and the game will be played at double stakes on the next hand. For example, a 5-10 kill game would become a 10-20 game for a hand if the criteria was met. A half kill is just as it sounds (10-20 goes to 15-30).
Jeff
I've got Ks Qc in the SB. EP limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, LP1 limps, button (B)limps, I call for 1/2 a bet, although I don't like this many opponents. The BB raises. Now I almost hope someone makes it 3 so I can fold. Nope, everyone called, as did I. 7 players, 14 sb in the pot.
Does pre-flop seem ok? I don't really like this many opponents, but the price seems right each time.
Flop is 7h Qh Kc. Pretty nice. I hope no more hearts come though. I decide a bet won't thin this field much, so I go for a check-raise.
Is this the right thinking?
I check, BB folds (raise from the BB pre-flop, then fold to no bet on the flop?), EP bets, MP1 raises, all fold to me, I 3 bet, EP calls, MP1 caps, we both call.
I think there is a good chance this cap is a set. I decide to call it down, unless there is excessive action.
Does this sound about right?
The turn is Js. That may have finished a straight draw. I check the turn, and it gets checked through. Oops.
The river is blank, no flush, I bet and get called by MP1.
He flopped two pair, K7.
Did I play this right? Did he play it right? He should have bet the turn, no?
Comments appreciated, tom
I think you both played this well. I think he sorta put you on a possible KQ but capped on the flop because a third player was in, he had position, and he wanted to represent trips in the hope of catching a cheap 7.
He had you guessing but you read him for trips so you have to go with that and play cautiously. If he's a player not worthy of respect you should bet the turn because trips are fairly unlikely.
My only criticism is I wouldn't dread calling half a bet with KQ like you seemed to. It's probably the best hand (prior to the BB's raise) so you should be happy. Lots of callers doesn't really hurt this hand because you are likely dominating some of them, and with many callers you might get good odds to take one off for the Broadway straight.
Tom,
In my opinion, I agree it was played pretty well, but I wouldn't put much faith in my opinion on this issue. I wouldn't be worried about the J on the turn. For the straight to be there, someone has to have AT or T9, and I don't think EP bet out, or LP capped with those hands. I still probably check. It sure smells like a set to me.
Pat Charlton
Pre-flop, you're just fine. If thinning the field is what you're going for on the flop, I think you should bet out. The pre-flop raiser is likely to raise, and that would force the field to call two cold. Obviously, that wouldn't have happened in this case, but given that the pot's kinda big at this point, I think it's your best course of action. If you check, the raiser bets, a few people call, and you now raise, the other players may be "tied on", building a bigger pot. Depending on how hopeless their draws are, this may be desirable. It probably doesn't gain you much in expectation and will add to your variance. I really don't fear a set here. A player would have to have precisely 77, as most folks raise pre-flop with KK and QQ. I'd lead on the turn, unless you were planning to check-raise. I wouldn't worry terribly about the straight. Bet the river. You played OK. Opponent played OK once the flop came down, although I would have bet the two pair on the turn. Calling in middle position with hands like K7 is not likely to yield satisfactory results.
Just curious about not worrying about a set of sevens. I agree it's not likely for the opponent to have KK or QQ, because he more than likely would've raised preflop. It's seems reasonable though for someone to limp with 77, though. My thoughts were for the opponent to have either K7 or 77, but I didn't think it likely to cap with K7. Comments?
There are two 4-8 games going, both short one player and I have my choice of seats. I ask the brush and he tells me one is very tight, and the other game can't spell tight.
I take the action game, and sit down in seat 9 between the blinds, so I have a couple of hands to see how the game is playing. Seats 2 and 6 are action players, seat three is a wild ass gambling maniac(WAG), and seat 7 is unknown to me, but his board name is 'crazy' so I'm assuming he's pretty lively too.
I post behind the button, seats 3 and 6 limp, crazy raises and, I call ( I considered making it three bets, but I didn't think that would make this field any smaller, and I like to play KQ as cheaply as possible.) button calls, SB calls, WAG raises, 'crazy' reraises, and I think I'm trapped into calling now. Button caps it 'to save time'. (7 players X 5 bets) - rake = $135 in the pot.
Wow - welcome to the table.
flop - K - K - 5 unsuited.
Checked to seat 6 who opens, 'crazy' calls, I think about raising, but I don't know if an 8$ bet will get anybody out, and I would like to raise on the next round so I can clear the field, and right now, there are no draws on the board, so I take my chances with calling. Seats 2 and 3 call. ($155)
turn - T clubs, putting a second club on the board.
Checked to seat 6 who opens again, seat seven calls, I raise, seat 2 calls, 3 mucks, 6 calls, and 7 mucks. (3 players, $211)
River - red 7.
Seat 2 mucks, seat 6 bets all in $7 and I call.
Seat 6 shows K2 suited and I win a $225 pot my first hand. WELCOME TO THE TABLE!
The plays I wonder about are: 1)the call preflop. If I had made it three bets preflop, It would probably would not have been reraised, because I get a little respect from most of the players there, and I would rather play KQ off for 3 than 5 bets.
2) the second call preflop when it comes back to me for 4 bets. I felt that I was trapped into making that call, but a good player who I discussed the hand with said ' yeah, you were probably trapped with the best hand going into the flop.'
and 3) declining to raise on the flop. If I raise and get reraised, then call, I might still be able to raise the turn, but I may have gotten more money into the pot with small bets.
thanks for the responses.
I've got Ks Qc in the SB. EP limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, LP1 limps, button (B)limps, I call for 1/2 a bet, although I don't like this manyopponents. The BB raises. Now I almost hope someone makes it 3 so I can fold. Nope, everyone called, as did I. 7 players, 14 sb in the pot.
Does pre-flop seem ok? I don't really like this many opponents, but the price seems right each time.
**** You have to call with KQ for 1/2 a bet and a
single raise. ********
Flop is 7h Qh Kc. Pretty nice. I hope no more hearts come though. I decide a bet won't thin this field much, so I go for a check-raise.
Is this the right thinking?
**** I think you can lead here. If raised, then you
can 3 bet. Your hand is good, but can easily
be beat later. ********
I check, BB folds (raise from the BB pre-flop, then fold to no bet on the flop?), EP bets, MP1 raises, all fold to me, I 3 bet, EP calls, MP1 caps, we both call.
I think there is a good chance this cap is a set. I decide to call it down, unless there is excessive action.
Does this sound about right?
***** The only set that makes sense is 77. ******
The turn is Js. That may have finished a straight draw. I check the turn, and it gets checked through. Oops.
***** Oops is right, you missed a bet plus the heart draw got a free card. Also, the only possible straights are AT and T9. Notice that both of these would have been inside draws on the flop. ******
The river is blank, no flush, I bet and get called by MP1.
He flopped two pair, K7.
Did I play this right? Did he play it right? He should have bet the turn, no?
*** yes, he should have bet the turn for the same
reason you should have. But in reality his error was much larger, he should have folded BTF.*****
Here's a hand for your anaylsis:
I'm sitting in MP and get pkt 10s. UTG calls, EP calls, I call, Cutoff calls, and blinds call/check -- 6 see the flop.
I considered raising, but I knew the two early players are tight, so they are holding decent cards and aren't going anywhere -- and I've had some bad luck with 10s.
Flop comes J J 7 rainbow
Everyone checked to me, and I wanted to see what I was up against so I bet the flop. Cutoff calls, one blind drops, and EP calls.
So now I figured at least one of them had a J, as everyone at this table had been waiting until the Turn to pull the trigger on trips or better. I'm figuring to check/fold the turn if an overcard falls and/or I get bet into.
Turn comes 10 --- J J 7 10.
Again I get checked to, but I get the impression from the cut-off that he has a J and is itching for me to bet, so I check to him. He bets out, EP calls, I raise and he re-raises. At this point the EP folds.
This is where the main question of this post comes up. I immediately put him on J-7 or J-10. The way I figured it was that if he gets check-raised on the turn, what would he re-raise with? J-A, J-7, J-10, 8-9, or 7-7. Since he didn't raise the flop, which I think this player would have, I had a hard time putting him on J-A. I don't think he'd have called on the flop with a gutshot str8 and a pair on the board. So of the remaining hands, I'm behind 2 of the 3.
I called the raise and called his river bet, watched as he flipped over his J-10, showed my 10s, and got a lot of sympathy and no money from the table.
So, how would you all play it? Most of the people at the table said they'd have put him on AJ and re-raised again on the turn. It's possible he'd think I had a weak J, but my betting would have been a little odd for that holding.
Anyway, should I have raised Preflop, checked the turn, bet the turn, re-raised the turn?
Thanks for the input!
-Mike
I would have raised preflop. A preflop raise would lower the amount of players seeing the flop and a hand like pocket tens plays much better against 2 or 3 players VS six players. Plus that way, you don't have to worry about the big blind flopping two pair with his 94o.
I like limping pre-flop with 2 limpers. With none or 1 I would raise, but with 2 or more just calling seems better to me.
When someone re-raises your check-raise on the turn you have to be scared. Especially when the pair on the board is higher than your pocket pair. I'd put him on JT or J7 and call him down.
I think you played it perfectly.
I could not disagree more ! Playing a passive game is weak. The way to win is to be agressive.
So do you think that respecting someone who re-raises your check-raise is weak?
It depends on the situation. You know, there is almost never a plain vanilla answer for anything in hold em. Dpends on a number of factors. Bottom line, you can't be passive, yes, there are times to be passive but I don't think that this is one of them.
Tom sez: "I think you played it perfectly."
The play was surely not perfect, at least according to Sklansky's fundamental theorem of poker.
So the question is whether or not the play was optimal or at least as optimal as possible in the situation. And on that I say no and agree with the other posts on raising with the 10's in that situation.
All the math aside, a big chunk of poker seems to be about putting your opponents to decisions, and your reacting properly to the decisions they make. With passive play, the only decision you place is upon yourself on whether to call or fold.
Folding a full house is tough, but there should have been a clue earlier when the player with J-10 showed no fear to the check raise.
"Anyway, should I have raised Preflop?"
Only you can have any insight into this question. If you think you could clear out the field behind you with a raise, then you should have raised to avoid exactly what happened. If the cutoff was a reasonable player, he would not have called a raise with J 10.
Raising to gain the button with a medium pair is not a bad idea if you are confident people will fold their trash hands behind you. If the game is on tilt and your raise is not going to lose anybody, then you should not raise and try to limp in for the minimum hoping to hit the flop hard.
Only you can have any insight into this question. If you think you could clear out the field behind you with a raise, then you should have raised to avoid exactly what happened. If the cutoff was a reasonable player, he would not have called a raise with J 10.
Your hand dominates JT. JT has 3 outs against you. If you hit your ten, JT needs 2 of those 3 outs. Just because it happened to hit in this hand doesn't mean that a knocking out JT is a better play.
The problem with raising to clear out the field behind you is that there are already 2 players in ahead of you, and at a loose low limit table, you're not likely to clear the field. That means that, at this table, your tens aren't likely to remain the best hand without improvement.
Another problem with raising is that if your tens are an overpair to the flop (which they aren't favored to be), then your raise has built a pot and overcards will get a better price to call.
This hand got off on the wrong foot by not raising preflop...Actually it's a great example of the trouble not raising can get you into. You really have to eradicate the "I'm not lucky with 10's" mentality. It will either prevent you from becoming a really good player or ruin your game if you already are one.
I like the call preflop. Once you have 2 opponents, a raise would reduce the field to around 4 players - I think it's reasonable to expect one of the blinds, or the button or cutoff to call.
Pocket pairs like tens and jacks play better heads up, or against a large field. Against a large field, most your profit will come from flopping a set.
On the flop: against 5 opponents, none of whom raised preflop, it is too likely that someone has a jack. Even if no one does, there are still 3 overcards - A,K,Q which can come. I would be tempted to think my hand is best when it's checked to me, so I don't think the bet is terrible. However, I think there is merit to checking. If the cutoff or button bets, I can see how the action progresses. If there aren't any callers, then perhaps I will checkraise, depending on how I perceive the bettor.
I don't have any issue with your turn or river play.
"On the flop: against 5 opponents, none of whom raised preflop, it is too likely that someone has a jack"
Is it? What are the odds? I think it is more accurate to say it is "unlikely" someone has a Jack.
Is it? What are the odds? I think it is more accurate to say it is "unlikely" someone has a Jack
It's not possible to come up with odds unless you know all the players' limping and raising requirements. But bigger cards tend to be raised, and lower cards are more often folded. Jacks are right in the range of a lot of limping hands. But I did a little math, and if 5 are limping with random cards, then it's 40% that someone has a jack. If any 2 random cards above 5, then it's 66%. These numbers can't be used, obviously, but they do give you ballpark numbers.
Plus in this situation, you are worse off than the odds dictate. Someone with a jack can slowplay so when someone does have the jack you are going to lose more. When no one has the jack people will be less likely to play with you since there is no draw on board, and any overcards might not be good if they hit. This means that you will lose more when you lose and win less when you win.
Say you just get smooth called on the flop. Do you risk the checkraise when a blank hits on the turn, or do you let overcards get a free card? The hand get harder to play from here.
Thanks all the info guys.
It sounds like most everyone thinks the turn and river play was ok, but you all seem split over whether or not to raise with pkt 10s after two EP callers.
I think that that in itself is a really good debate. I know I'd raise with hooks or better, but 10s and 9s just don't hold up on their own well enough to merit a raise that will not get it down to two or three people.
Furthermore, from the 3/6 tables I've played, most players in late position will always call a raise with any two cards 10 or higher.
Another reason I don't like raising with 10s in MP is it telegraphs to everyone that you are taking charge of the betting. The two EP players and any late callers can use that to their advantage when an A, K, Q, or J falls and they are holding premium cards. More likely than not the cards that the callers are holding will beat me if any of high cards fall.
All of that would be different if it was a little higher limit or there was a little more respect for the raisers. If I was assured of clearing the field behind me I would definitely raise.
Why did you check raise on the turn?
I think you misused your tell on the turn. You'll be facing trips far more than you will be facing a higher boat in this situation. If I knew he was going to raise me, I would have bet again, let him raise, and then 3 bet. Plus, what if had checked behind you (like maybe he was holding a weak J which is most likely here), you miss not only his call, but the EP call as well who may have been holding a 6 or something and called again. My way, you make more money with or without the tell, at least overtime. This time you would have lost more money, but that is results oriented analysis.
Pat
BTF: I think you should raise with TT with 2 limpers in front of you. Make people with better position pay for their hands.
Flop: I like your flop bet. Don't give overcards a
free shot to pass you IF noone has a jack.
Turn: I would have bet the turn for the same reason as
before. Unfortunately, the only Ten left was in your opponents hand (JT). When raised, you probably should 3 bet once. If he 4 bets, you know you're in big trouble. You can check/call the river.
Just got back from a few days in Vegas for the first time in a couple years, and sat down for some 3/6 at Mirage. Congrats to Mirage for making the place non-smoking. Far more pleasant.
Table has been very loose passive to this point. I'm in the big blind with A9o. UTG calls, everybody folds to the SB who calls, I check. UTG appears to be a local that must play every day - everyone seemed to know her by first name. SB probably a tourist like me.
Flop: AT7 rainbow
SB checks, I bet, both call.
Turn: AT7(3)
SB checks, I bet, both call.
River: AT73(7)
SB checks, I bet, UTG raises, SB calls. I'm leaning toward folding here. Loose players will play any ace and it's possible that there is an AT A7 or A3 out there, or even a limped AJ AQ. With the SB calling 2 bets, I'm concerned about a flopped 2 pair or maybe a 7. Do I comfortably fold this, or am I in for the 2 bets as well? Was I too aggressive on the flop or turn with a 9 kicker?
I'll post the result later.
Thanks,
mike
I would figure that someone, UTG, was holding a 7. The SB might have a weak ace, but to raise on the river with that board, I'd figure trip 7s.
I'd have played it the same on the flop and turn, but with no aggression before the river, and a pair falling, I'd just check the river. If SB dropped to UTG's bet, I'd call, but I don't know if I'd make an overcall.
Actually, being in BB, I might have checked / raised the flop to put pressure on and see where I stood -- If you do that you might get a paired 7 to drop to the turn bet.
Mike
I think you fold to the raise on the river. I don't think you are going to see very many exotic plays in a 3-6 game. The least you'll look at in this spot is trip 7's from UTG. I'm guessing sb has a big ace and UTG has A 7 or 10 7.
I would have played the hand the same except to check and call one bet on the river. If UTG bets and sb raises, it's an easy lay down.
I would have played it the same way but probably check and called the river.
MD
It is time to lay it down. Why? Because the SB called 2 bets on the river - indicating to me that he/she at least has AJ or better. you are probably outkicked from the SB regardless of the UTGs hand. The UTG is either making a play, has AK, AT, a boat or a 7. I think the best you can do here is come in second. The worst place to be.
I look forward to hearing the conclusion.
I folded, figuring that the SB at least had me beat to call the 2 bets, and that UTG either had me outkicked or had a 7.
UTG showed A7o for the full house. SB showed A2o. Why the SB actually showed that hand, I'll never know, but welcome to low limit poker I guess.
I was also surprised that UTG didn't get in a raise with 2 pair on the flop or turn, although the slow play probably did get a few extra bets, so maybe it wasn't that bad after all.
Thanks everyone for the replies.
mike
Low-limit-Paradise-quiz:
You are in the Big Blind and get a freeplay w/ [ Ad 6d ].
5 players (4 and 3 off the button, the button, SB and BB=You) are seeing the flop:
[ 5h 4c 7d ]
Q1: What about raising pre-flop ?
SB checks to you.
Q2: Now what ? Bet or check ?
Let's say you decide to check.
The 2 limpers check - the button bets - SB calls.
Q3: Now what ? Fold, call or raise ?
It would be nice to hear Mason's response, but if we don't ...
Q4: How do you think Mason would respond - and do you agree - please discuss !
I check/called the flop and the turn and rivered an Ace and won the pot - but maybe I could have done better than that !?
Any comments appreciated !
Q1.Easy one, don't raise. Q2.you could lead the betting with a open end straight draw and 1 overcard. The problem with check calling is if you hit the straight and come out betting with a four straight showing your not going to get much action on a low but cordinated board.Q3. call Q4. haven't the foggiest idea.Steve
If you improve to a flush draw on the turn, raise it then.
Raising pre-flop is incorrect, I believe, but A2-5s (with the added straight potential) and A8s or better, likely to have the best ace in this unraised pot, should possibly be raised for value. Conversely, I would check strong offsuit Aces to keep the pot small so I'd be able to protect my hand better if I flop top pair/top kicker.
I like checking post-flop here in early position and see how the action goes. I'd probably check-raise a bet and a couple of callers.
Unless you raise the flop, calling is marginal on the turn if three-way and no improvement to the flush draw, as you could easily be splitting by hitting your open-ended straight. If a heart or club fall on the turn, you could be drawing to a six-outer straight with a possibly good Ace to go.
lars
> Conversely, I would check strong offsuit Aces to keep the pot small so I'd be able to protect my hand better if I flop top pair/top kicker.
Please don't perpetuate this bad advice. Keeping pots small is a losing ploy. Like they say in rounders, "get your money in when you have the best of it, protect it when you don't" If you think your strong ace is best RAISE. Protect your money not your hand.
Q1: I would not raise this hand, I would take my free play.
Q2: I would check. My reasoning for this, is it is quite common in LL holdem that 2 people in the above hand could be holding a 6. People also tend to play any A, so your A may not be good. It is also remotely possible that someone was playing 63s or 86s and you are drawing almost dead to a split. So I have an open ender that I may be chopping if I hit and a back door flush draw and a weak A.
Q3: I would call. It is quite common that at least one or more of the people who check the flop in LL holdem to call a button bet giving me odds to hit my open ender A or a flush draw.
Q4: How would Mason respond? I think Mason may play it like I have said, or he may check raise the flop. The check raise on the flop is a good play because it gives you the best chance of eliminating opponents and thus winning the pot. Also, you take control of the hand and may win it outright with a bet on the turn if an overcard of any kind falls.
I would tend to play it weak because I don't think LL players fold enough, so it is a risky check raise. If I picked up a overcard flush draw on 4th street I would likely semi-bluff bet at the pot.
1.check 2.check 3. I would check raise. Your hand probably needs to improve and a check raise here may help you win if an Ace or six hit the board. If you don't hit the turn, your check might get a free card.
The game: 4/8 Holdem. Tough table for low limit. Probably 5 experts (EX), 2 typical low limit players (TLL), 2 players somewhere inbetween (SI).
The best play I could make was to probably get up and sit in the 2/4 game, but I stayed nonetheless. A knowledgable player told me the game was playing like a 10/20 game, and I was up for a little challenge.
HAND 1:
I have J2s in the BB. Two EX limp from middlish positions, and TLL calls from late position. I check.
Flop comes all spades T73. I bet, EX1 folds, EX2 raises, TLL re-raises, I cap. EX2 and TLL call.
Turn brings another T. I bet, EX2 raises, TLL calls, I call.
River brings a blank. Board is T73Tx 3 spades. I check, EX2 bets, TLL calls, I call. EX2 shows pocket 7s for a boat, TLL had trip tens I think.
Should I have given up my hand on the turn when I was raised? What about my play up to the point when I was raised? Any big mistakes?
HAND 2:
I have AA on the button. Several players fold. SI raises from middle position, all fold to me, I re-raise, blinds fold, SI calls. Flop comes 89T rainbow. SI bets, I raise, SI calls.
Turn comes 2 completing the rainbow. SI checks, I bet, he calls.
River brings a Q. Board is 819T2Q. SI checks, I bet, SI raises, I've had enough of throwing $8 into the pot when I'm "know" I'm beat, so I fold.
Should I bother betting the river there? Should I call SI's raise? Any big mistakes in my pre-river play?
Thanks, Alex
Hand 1: Not much you can do here. I probably would have done the same thing.
Hand 2: The river bet is bad, just plain bad. All SI needs is a J which is possible(maybe a pocket pair of Js or AJs or something like that). I'd go ahead and check here because it's one of those spots where if you get called you're probably beaten. Just check and see if your aces are good.
spanQy
Hand 1.
On the flop, I am not sure I cap it with non-nut flush. When the board pairs and since the flop betting was capped, I would probably check/call 1 bet or check/fold to 2 bets. Once you make it to the river I would do the same.
Hand 2.
I wouldn't bet the river. It is one of those bets that you will only get called by a better hand unless the guy is a complete fish. As far as calling the raise, you were probably right to fold it but is this player likely to raise without the straight or 2 pair?
Ken Poklitar
Moving to $2/4 can't possibly be the right play, can it? :^) There are no experts playing $4/8. Trust me on this one.
On the first hand, capping the flop may have been overplaying your hand a bit, but you were best at that point. I don't think that there's any point at which you can fold. If the other guys were jamming on the expensive streets, then you might give it up.
On the second hand, you did fine until the river. If you're going to fold to a raise, don't value-bet the river. Don't bet the river anyway. It's unlikely that a worse hand will call, or that a better hand will fold. As for calling the raise, it doesn't have to be right that often to be profitable (the pot's a decent size by now).
The first hand I think you played well, just an example of being second best. The second hand you shouldnt bet the river, when you were raised, you could have actually reraised, or called. You through $8 away, by betting, it might have appeared to your opponent you were trying to buy the pot, he might have raised with nothing and put a move on you there. In order for that move to be profitable for him he needs to hit it 2 in 10 times. He bet 8 more to win however much was in the pot. Read Sklanskys Theory of Poker or Skalsky and Malmuths Hold em Poker for Advance players sections on bluffing and semi bluffing, and their sections on raising. One more note, with that much money in the pot, why not call for 8 more? Better skill next time.
Thank you all for your thoughtful responses.
I can see clearly now that in HAND 1, my cap on the flop and bet on the turn were aggressive but OK. I'm still a bit uncomfortable with calling the raise on the turn. How often is the good player raising me with a hand I can beat? Obviously everyone is saying "with the pot so big, easily often enough so calling is profitable." OK, fair enough.
On HAND 2, I see that my bet on the river was bad bad bad bad bad. I still think my fold on the river was OK. Sure his raise could be a move, so I see the argument for calling, but those check-raise bluffs on the river are very rare in the low limit games where I play.
mg in nj mentioned that I could have re-raised on the river. That I don't understand at all. He probably has me beat and in all likelyhood, isn't going to throw away any hand that I can't beat, so calling must be better than re-raising. (Let me know if I'm missing anything, please).
Thanks, Alex
Alex,
Calling would have been fine on the river. I thought you checked to your opponent and he bet into you.
You are correct, calling a raise would save you money as opposed to re-raising.
Mg
4-8 game. It is now 4:00 am, I have been playing since 8:00 pm. Have to go to work in another 4 hours, but I had been reluctant to leave the table because it was a very loose game, 5 to 7 players seeing the flop, couple times 9 players. I am up a small amount, after mucking almost every hand for the past two hours. Frustrating not to get the cards in a game like this!
I tell myself this is my last hand, when UTG posts a straddle. She is loose aggressive, seeing well over 50% of the flops. I am next to cutoff and pick up JJ. Two early players limp. Middle player (MP) limps. He has joined the table about two hours ago, and is a tight player. Another limper to me, I raise, cutoff folds, button calls, SB calls, BB folds. UTG raises, all call to MP who re-raises, call to me and I cap. All behind me call - no folds! At this time I am more worried about MP than UTG. I figure UTG for anything, just betting to protect her straddle.
Flop is 9,3,2 rainbow. UTG bets, MP raises, I re-raise to see where they're at. UTG and MP call and everyone else drops out except one early player.
Turn is a 6. UTG bets, early player mucks, MP calls, I raise, UTG reraises, MP and I call. I was thinking of mucking at this reraise, but there's too much in the pot, and I still don't believe UTG has much of anything. I am still more worried about MP.
River is a 5, no flush possible. UTG checks! MP checks. I was going to check/call, but when UTG checked, I figured I had her beat, so I bet. UTG disgustedly calls, then throws in her last 6 chips for all in. MP thinks for a long time, then mucks!
I think I played this a little too agressively, so flame away. But more than my play, I completely blew this another way. Results in next post.
UTG stood up as if ready to leave, but still hung on to her cards. I show my JJ, she lets out a whoop of joy and throws down AA. MP had mucked with QQ, which I forgot to mention he showed before mucking. I think he was just as happy as UTG to see my JJ beaten!
More than my playing, I berate myself for focusing only on UTG's loose playing through the night. I thought she was just showing loose aggression on this hand (as she had in hands before). If I had reviewed the betting carefully during the hand, I should have known she had a higher pair, AA or KK at least.
They were both (MP especially) scared of a straight. I don't see how they could think that, with the way I bet BTF and afterwards. Think I would do that holding a 4? I never even gave that a thought as to their holding.
Papio
There are many reasons to raise. I don't think "to find out where you're at" should be one of em. But that's up to you.
The rest of the hand I think you played fine. The best way to become a good poker player is to put people on a hand a play accordingly. It hurts when you're wrong, like this hand, but it will force you to become better at reading people and when you get good at it you'll be able to make the most out of your marginal winners and get away from your marginal losers. Marginal hands are the key to poker. Anyone can fold crap and win with the nuts.
I do think it's funny that they both had you beat :)
PG
.
JJ is not a 4 bet hand, although a case can be made for putting in the last raise pre-flop with all those players.
It's not easy to put a straddler on AA, but it can happen. Even with poor players, you sometimes have to go with what the action is telling you. Here, when you take into account the other player's actions, it was likely that a pair of jacks were behind from the get-go. You lost too many chips on this hand. But you already knew that.
I always think that bad players (which until recently included me) CAN play perfect poker, just not very consistently.
Just think, even someone making random decisions must get it right a third of the time!
I cheated and read the results first, but even reading the first post, that UTG turn bet had me cowering in my seat. Only hand she can be betting that you beat is TT's, and the other hands are JJ's, QQ's, KK's, AA's and from a straddle you can throw in 99's, 54s, 33's and 22's. When the MP calls that turn bet, you got to figure he might have one of those big pairs as well.
Of course you know this now, but you clearly lost at least 2BB's more than you should have.
Pat Charlton
I was planning on making a trip to Vegas soon and was wondering if any of you out there had some advice as to which casinos had the loosest players. I guess I'm looking for a 4-8 game, or less, where the players are generally there on vacation (like me I suppose) and looking to simply have a "good time" playing cards. Any card rooms I should be wary of?
nt
DO NOT play at the Stardust. You will be eaten alive. The Palace Station has a good $2-$4 game that seems to be extreamly live on Sunday mornings. If you are a rock, try the Excaliber $2-$6 HE table (single $2 blind, bonus spin on wheel if AA or KK cracked---you would show a $2/hr profit just playing AA,KK,AK, and Ax suited in position)
3-6 at the mirage or 4-8 at the monty carlo are pretty good, bellagio has a nice room but some decent players at 4-8
Loose aggressive 9 handed 6-12 with a kill. Ax, any two suited are taking down some pretty large pots on the river when the kicker is hit, or the flush card falls. Made hands on the flop are slow played regularly and everyone’s trying to trap. Fair amount of raises before the flop, but that’s ok as I’ve been mucking my mostly unrelated cards for about 2-1/2 hours. I’ve picked up a total of three pots, one on a semi-bluff, one where I catch aces full on the river, and another where I catch the K on the river to go with my AK suited that was going down in flames. I’m down about $60 just keeping my head above water.
I get QcQd on the button. Solid player limps under the gun, three loose aggressive types call, player to my right folds, and I raise. Small blind folds, big blind and all the rest call, 12 small bets in the pot. I was not expecting to knock anyone out, but I figure that if I’m finally going to have a chance to win a pot, I’d like to maximize the return. Flop comes AsTs6s. All check to me. I haven’t played many hands and most are thinking that I’ve got an ace. I expect at least one of them to have Ax and one or two flush draws. I’m beat with any A and looking at being trapped with the made flush. Avoiding the check-raise, I check. Turn comes Ad. Loose aggressive big blind bets out, solid player mucks, the three call and I muck. River brings Ah and big blind turns over 77 and takes down the pot. Comments?
I would have the bet the flop and if someone raises me, I'm out. When the second ace hit on the turn I would have called, then on the river after the third ace hit I would have raised.
I don't think you should have folded on the turn. This is mainly because you said BB was a loose-aggressive player and that would make me think he would bet the flop w/ any ace. Since I don't believe he has an ace I would raise the turn and fold to a re-raise and bet the river if it was checked to me or raise if someone else bet into me. My two cents.
SS
Why are you losing sleep over a pot containing 6 BB? You threw away a winner, no big deal it happens all the time to winning players.
It would be wrong to bet that flop against 5 loose opponents who like to trap. Anyone with an ace or a spade is coming, regardless of your table image.
On the turn it gets bet and called by three players. How can you call? At best you have to assume you have 4 outs. At worst none. Now if no one had called on the turn, I would consider the possibility that I have the best against an aggressive player.
Go get some rest . You played the hand fine.
I agree that if you are not throwing away winners, then you are probably not playing tight enough.
Thanks for your reply. I didn't lose much sleep over it, I just woke up thinking about it. The table was so loose, that I was chided for being too tight and mis-playing the hand. Sure one can say they would have bet and called, but hindsight is 20/20. Running bad over the last 3 sessions has me thinking alot about my play and I don't want to talk myself into making adjustments that aren't warranted just to change something. I think I'm playing ok, but I've been getting a pretty long run of bad cards.
The hand that got me to get up and quit was AA in a kill pot that was sucked out on by pairing the J on the river and losing a huge one to QJoff.
Ah well, I'll try again next week.
I agree, the callers are definately the problem, loose or not. I would normally assume at least one Ax with 4 other players already in, and perhaps a small made flush, probably flush draws.
I would usually bet the flop just for information, fold if raised, take a free card on the turn after a second ace, as an Ax would become much more likely to check-raise after a second A rolls. My guess is BB would not have bet out if everyone had merely check-called on the flop (as flush-draws probably would), which probably would have given you a free turn. Then when a third Ace comes on the river, it becomes a definate call for 1 big bet.
Fallon
Hi Chip Breaker,
You're right, you won't like it if you bet the flop and get raised. But you will like it if you bet the flop and everybody folds. Bet the flop, see what happens, then decide if you like it.
You have position, I would bet the flop. If I get one or two callers, I would sometimes bet the turn, and sometimes check the turn and call the river. they're loose and aggressive, they might chase you all the way to the river with a pair of sevens, then they'll be the ones losing sleep.
good luck,
Bob T.
Hi Bob,
With 4 loose players in there banging away, isn't it reasonable to assume that a flush draw was trapped by my raise?
Just for fun, if I did bet the flop and get a couple of callers, then bet the turn, I'm into the pot for $30. I'm playing 4 outs if the flush is made. I don't expect a raise from a made flush until at least the turn, and I fold anyway. If they wait for the river to raise, I'm making a crying call and I'm out $66 and feel like a chump.
Do I keep throwing money as a 10.5/1 dog on the turn? Sure I could make a play, but my raise in late position with limpers before the flop screams AA, KK, QQ and maybe AKs, probably not KsQs, so I figure they put me on an A and they are licking their chops hoping for action and I'm looking at a spanking.
As it was, I got out for $12 and lived to fight another battle. Timid? maybe, but I'm not so sure. I think the draw was marginal and although previous results are obviously irrelevant, I'd been running bad and I was a little gun-shy. If I'd been up a few stacks, I probably would have loosened up a bit.
n/t
As a preflop raiser on the button...i would definately bet any flop that was checked to me. If they are trapping you, they're gonna wait for the turn anyway. So when they check the turn to you and you don't feel good about it, THEN you check and see the river card for free.
PG
I agree, that this is not the best flop for you, and sombody might be trapping you. But I still think that you have to bet and see how they react. This could have been a terrible flop for all of them, and a bet from the preflop bettor might be all it takes to separate them from their hands. If some of them call,(and since they mostly called a big bet with whatever draws they had, its likely) and you still feel uncomfortable, check the turn and call a single bet on the river.
If the hand is played that way, you have to win about one out of 7 times for you to break even. If you win one out of 12 times on the flop your even, I think that in absence of a raise pre flop other than yours in an aggressive game indicates that you will win at least that often.
If you get checkraised, its a different story, then I think you probably have to reevaluate, and most likely let go of the hand.
By checking this, you are giving those loose players a chance to beat you with the single 9,8,7,5,4,3,2 of spades. They will probably play with the K, Q, and J, and thats what they probably all had to call that big bet on the turn. Although I would have expected a semibluff from someone having the K at some point, so maybe that's not out there.
Thanks for posting this hand, it made me think about the scary flop situation and do some arithmatic that I might not have otherwise.
good luck,
Bob T.
Yes, I probably should have bit my lip and bet out on the flop. If I got three callers, there'd be 8 big bets in the pot and the turn would have given me the 10+ big bets and the implied odds needed to make the call mathmatically close. I don't think I'd have scared out any ace or high spade (given the texture of the table) and would have been playing the odds.
Do you ever consider how your cards have been running against you when you make such a close decision? I know each circumstance is unique (although I believe that manual dealing does not necessarily randomize the cards and I do see similar cards come in sequential hands), but if I'm running bad, I'm more inclined to be cautious. Is that tilt or prudence?
Bob,
I think you may have misunderstood the reason for betting the flop. You are obviously not going to scare out high spades and aces. But, you described the table as "trap" friendly. So anyone who flopped a big hand will "check to the raiser" on the flop. You bet, they call. Then they will check to you again on the turn with the intention of check-raising you. Disappoint them. Check the turn and see the river card for free.
PG
n/t
Excellent idea. But where's the case ace? Given the hindsight, I know the last ace wasn't there, but if I hang around and see the third ace with 3 callers, don't I have to check call the river too? I'm beginning to believe that if I don't attack this hand on the flop, I have to fold.
An Ax may not have bet into the spade flop even though he had top pair. Unless he already had two pair and made the boat, his trips have to stay quiet on the turn because of the made flush possiblity. On the river, there are two full houses, a nut flush and four aces! I'd be expecting some action from this group. And, I'm trapped worse with what is now 2nd place making crying calls to the capped end. If a bet on the flop doesn't knock out the lone ace on the flop (would you fold it for a small bet?)I'm a dead man with the way it unfolded.
I wonder as this analysis gets more detailed if playing on past this flop has a positive EV?
You don't have to check call the river. You are last to act. If the table explodes with action when the third A hits on river, you can quietly fold your QQ. If someone bets and everyone folds to you, you decide whether odds justify a fold, call, or raise.
Back to the way you played it; I think you made a good fold on the turn. But, perhaps if you'd have bet the flop, you'd have had the opportunity to check the turn, see the third ace hit the river and went from there.
PG
Is it tilt or prudence?
I don't know, I think that you have to answer that one. Right now I'm on the other side of the coin, having run outrageously good for three months, which lets me be confidant, and aggressive, and my regular opponents are a little nervous when I'm in a pot because they've seen me carry a lot of chips to the cage. Hope you get to experience it soon.
I think confidence and well placed aggression lead to good results, and it builds more confidance and just goes round and round. When your running bad, and you see a flop like this, and you start imagining all the bad scenarios that could be happening and get passive, it puts you in the position of having to make tough decisions, and when you have tough decisions, you're just not going to get them all right, which leads to doubt and running bad.
good luck, and thanks again for posting this hand, it provided a basis for a lot of thought and discussion.
Bob T.
I would like to start off by thanking everyone at this forum who adds insight and new ideas to the game.
Without some of these theorys I would not be the winning player I am today. Mr Skalsky, Mr Malmuth and Abdull you guys have instilled awesome fundamentals in my game,thank you.
Sometimes however I think I forget the value of playing with suckers. Last evening I sat 5-10 at the Taj in Atlantic City New Jersey and I won a monster hand,not because of my brilliance but because of another players mistake. It was the classic weak tight table until a live one came in. The guy claimed it was his first time in a live game. Monster hand in question went like this. Two calls to me and I am on the button with 9 10 suited. I call. The big blind raised( the live one) and the we all call. Pre Flop $40. Flop comes 995 two hearts. Live one bets two callers I overcall.$ 65 in the pot. If I raise there I lose the two players behind me. Turn hits a nine. I now have the nuts Quads. Live one bets, two callers, I raise. The live one reraises I lose the two callers and I reraise. The live one reraises me yet again.I reraise,He reraises I reraise and finally he just called because he didnt tow much in front of $165 in the pot now. River hits a blank. He checks, I bet he shrugs his shoulders and makes a crying call. He turns over 9's full of 8's. He had pocket eights. I showed him my quads and I just kept my mouth shut. The table just told him I got lucky,so he could continue playing. I left shortly after that because I felt exhaused. I just thought I would share my experience because this is the first time I have ever come across a situation like it is presented it in the book. I think I played it perfect until I raised on the turn, I could have slowplayed, However I knew I would get action from the live one, and I suspected he had a small pair like 7's and he was semi bluffing. He told everyone that he played Paradise Poker for money and he understands the game, he just never played a live game. Any comments would be appreciated.
Thank you
Well Congratulations on your newfound success. Let me just say that this is ONE poker hand out of millions and you got lucky that you had a live one/moron to go as far with his hand as he did.
My feeling is that you could have started raising on the river with the nuts. Perhaps you could have gotten a couple of overcalls from limpers after live one/moron started the action on the river.
Playing 9Ts in position is certainly not a bad play, but do realize that this hand practically plays itself from the flop on. What will you do if in the same position the flop comes 984 rainbow and the pre-flop raiser is tougher? Then skill and experience will have to guide you.
Best of luck!
JOE
A few comments:
-The value of playing with suckers: Everyone is a sucker compared to someone else. Play better than your opponents and you will get their money. The table did the right thing telling your opponent you just got lucky.
Pre-flop: Every once in a while you can raise with a lot of players in the hand with a hand like T-9s. Great for the image if you get to show the hand down and it's a hand that plays well with a lot of players in the pot when you have the button.
-I would have raised on the flop. Your hand is not a lock. There might be inside straight draws and flush draws. Get them out or make them pay. You're not going to lose any flush draws anyway if you raise. Save your slow-plays for more perfect situations, say, a flop of 9-9-2 rainbow.
-Of course you raise on the turn. You've got 3 players already with money in the pot in front of you. The draws are going out for one bet anyway with three 9s on board, so go for it. You never know when someone might re-raise with a pocket pair, which is exactly what happened.
-Isn't is great when they keep raising you when you have the nuts?
-You left because you were tired: this is great. Don't keep playing when you're less than at your best.
Congrats on the big hand.
Hi all.
I was wondering if its worth to play tournements a paradise?? The take 10 % of the money, and there is 10 players at each tornrment.
Thanks, Daniel
In one word.....NO! Ive always been a winner at live play, yet cannot beat the games at paradise. If you want to play limit hold em the best site right now is ultimatebet.com. They have limits of $.25-.50,.50-1.00,$1-2,2-4, on up to $10-20. minimum deposit is only $25 vs. $50 at paradise and you can cash out at anytime. At paradise you have to wait 24 hrs after your deposit and have a min cashout of $50. If you wanna play pot-limit hold em try cccpoker.com. It is a new site so there is usually only 2-3 tables going at a time. The main game is .50 blind pot-limit hold em and it runs almost 24-7. They also offer games like draw poker and 5 card stud.
Thanks for the CCCPoker advertisement. I was expected a post having to do with expectations from Paradise tourneys, but this commercial break was much more worthwhile.
PG
I consider myself an avarage player, not great. I´ve played 445 tourneys in the past months all limits but mostly 10 and 20. I´m up 661 if i only count tourneys, so i guess my hourly expectaion is higher in the cashgames...BUT it´s fun! And cccpoker sucks. Almost no games going and they don´t respond to e-mail.
Let´s all contact paradise and tell them to start pot-limit in stead.
In response to Ector. Ive seen you on the play tables at cccpoker and I will agree that it sucks there is never more than 1-2 tables going. However the pot-limit hold em real money game is pretty good there and its up and running most of the time. As far as pot-limit at paradise, I suggested it to them months ago.
Well, i did play realmoney to but i only bought in for a small sum and blew it rather fast in pot-limit. Oh and i also sat down at a tourneytable. Waited two hours for ONE tournament to start...
-
I was playing the tournaments very frequently for a while. I would recommend you try them. However, the blinds increase very quickly and at the end are very high (relative to stack sizes). The result is that there is more luck than you would think in the tournaments since near the end everyone's stack is in danger.
What I found interesting about them is that making it to the end exercises your skills at both full table and shorthanded play.
I found the opponenets in the tournaments to be weaker than the low limit games. I have seen tournaments at the $10 and $20 level where many more people were seeing the flop than even in the Paradise $1/$2 games and playing much weaker hands.
And don't play the $5 tournaments, the rake is too high (twice as high proportionally as the others).
Yeah. A good tourney player can make the money close to 50% of the time. Winning vs 2nd place is somewhat of a crapshoot since the blinds are so high.
I have had more success in the Omaha tournies then the Hold'em.
As far as $ per hour, if you are a winning $20-40 then you are probably better at playing live play otherwise you can make decent $ per hour.
Ken Poklitar
10-handed 5/10 game.
UTG, a player with fairly loose raising standards raises, all fold to MP who 3-bets (dont know anything about him). I'm in the cut-off, and cap with AKs (?) Rest fold, and UTG, MP and I take the flop in a capped pot.
Flop: 5 8 9 rainbow.
Checked to me, and I bet. I bet because I put UTG on big overcards like AK-J, KQ and the like (because he normally would bet any overpair here), and I might get a free turn card, if someone is slowplaying a big overpair or a set.
Turn: K (4th suit)
UTG bets out (AK, KQ, maybe KJ?), MP raises. What would you do here?
I called, UTG folds. River is a blank, he bets, I call, and he takes the pot with a set 8's.
Comments appreciated.
Regards
The turn is a tough one, and while I'm not certain I could've done it, I think a fold actually is in order here.
If UTG is the tricky kind of player, rather than just a poor, loose/aggressive one, I'd fear him too, betting into a card likely to have hit either the three-better or a capper or even both. Loose, tricky players could raise UTG with 67s as well as small pocket pair (although he should be fearing a set of Kings here).
The point is, you have a marginal holding WITHOUT even closing the betting here. If UTG puts in a re-raise here, what now?
lars
I actually didnt fear UTG too much, because he was a pretty straight forward player, who can bluff, but it's still pretty easy to pick up his bluffs. I cant rely too much on this read though, since I havent played too often with him. But he would probably bet set 8's or 9's, call a raise, and check-raise the turn. At least, I would think that would be the most logical kind of action for this kind of player. When he bet the turn I strongly put him either on KQ or AK. I dont think he's capable of making the tricky HPFAP UTG raise with 76s.
I was most worried about MP. His 3-bet could mean a medium to strong pocket pair, or something like AK, AQ, KQs. I dont think he would slowplay QQ-AA here on the flop, given the preflop action, so IMO he most likely has a set or AK, (maybe KQ) IMO.
So when I faced the 2 bets cold there were 11 BB in the pot, getting 1:5,5. Let's assume a set or AK are same likely given the hand reading. There are 6 ways to have 8's, 6 to have 9's, 6 to have AK.
IF we only take MP into account my EV would be:
EV=-1/3*2-1/3*2+1/3*5,5(split pot)=+1/2
But since we are not taking effective odds into account, and the fact that there's also a good chance UTG holds AK, and the fact that I'm not closing the betting, I have to agree with you that it's probably a theoretical fold. But be sure you dont flash your cards when you muck :-)
Regards
Hi Ikke,
When its to you there are 10 and 1/2 Big bets in the pot, If you call two here, and one on the river, you're getting almost 4 to 1 on your call if you've read UTG correctly, and he doesn't reraise.
I guess the rest is judgement. What do you think that he would raise on the turn with? A slowplayed set(which he had), 7-6 for the straight, two pair(at last a hand you have outs against), AK for the chop, and KQ (the only clear winner for you). Maybe he could also semibluff raise with something like J7 or JT. Of those hands what would he have three bet preflop with? I think most likely a pocket pair to isolate the loose raiser (which has now made a set) or AK. I think that your at best a 4 to 1 underdog, and more likely worse than that so I think that a fold is probably correct. (at the same time, I would probably have called at the table.)
Your right, this is a tough turn decision.
good luck,
Bob T.
"I think that your at best a 4 to 1 underdog, and more likely worse than that so I think that a fold is probably correct. (at the same time, I would probably have called at the table.)"
Exactly my thoughts afterwards :-)
Regards
The way to play'em? :-)
Game #97587333 - $1/$2 Hold'em - 2001/08/04-09:50:02 (CST) Table "Mindelo" (real money) -- Seat 8 is the button Seat 1: laszlo ($30 in chips) Seat 2: snipes ($29.75 in chips) Seat 3: 1stday ($71.50 in chips) Seat 4: nummerfire ($27.50 in chips) Seat 5: chas3 ($9.25 in chips) Seat 6: pti gars ($176.25 in chips) Seat 7: okie711 ($168 in chips) Seat 8: dslamm ($13.75 in chips) Seat 9: lars_vegas ($86.50 in chips) Seat 10: AztecM ($25.75 in chips) lars_vegas: Post Small Blind ($0.50) AztecM : Post Big Blind ($1) laszlo : Sit out Dealt to lars_vegas [ Jd ] Dealt to lars_vegas [ Jc ] snipes : Call ($1) 1stday : Fold nummerfire: Fold chas3 : Fold pti gars: Raise ($2) okie711 : Call ($2) dslamm : Fold lars_vegas: Raise ($2.50) AztecM : Fold snipes : Call ($2) pti gars: Call ($1) okie711 : Call ($1) *** FLOP *** : [ 2s 8d 5c ] lars_vegas: Check snipes : Check pti gars: Check okie711 : Check *** TURN *** : [ 2s 8d 5c ] [ Tc ] lars_vegas: Bet ($2) snipes : Call ($2) pti gars: Raise ($4) okie711 : Call ($4) lars_vegas: Raise ($4) snipes : Fold pti gars: Call ($2) okie711 : Call ($2) *** RIVER *** : [ 2s 8d 5c Tc ] [ Ks ] lars_vegas: Bet ($2) pti gars: Call ($2) okie711 : Fold *** SUMMARY *** Pot: $36 | Rake: $1 Board: [ 2s 8d 5c Tc Ks ] laszlo didn't bet snipes lost $5 (folded) 1stday didn't bet (folded) nummerfire didn't bet (folded) chas3 didn't bet (folded) pti gars lost $11 [ Ts Ah ] (a pair of tens) okie711 lost $9 (folded) dslamm didn't bet (folded) lars_vegas bet $11, collected $36, net +$25 (showed hand) [ Jd Jc ] (a pair of jacks)
lars
Wow, quite hard to read this, but I dont like your flop check at all, especially when pti gars is fairly passive. Your hand isnt strong enough to risk a free card here. Especially since a 3-bet out of the SB (like you did) very often means a big pair, there's a good chance it will be checked around if you check (and to make things worse there are only 3 players). What would you have done if an A, K or Q fell on the turn?
But you probably did already know this because of the smiley after your first sentence...
Regards
The check on the flop is a variation play, but I don't think it's far worse EV-wise than betting straight out. After it goes three bets, four-way pre-flop (plus a dead big blind), few will fold to a small bet straight out from first position. In fact, you'd be correct to call with most hands here, even against pocket jacks.
With a late bet, from either cut-off or button, I will isolate on the flop and play it from there. It's also good for information, particularly on cut-off and button, as few players will slowplay hands in late position, despite the chance of coming to life on the turn instead.
I of course hit my big money card on the turn, and by now, many players will make a mistake in calling me.
I bet Malmuth and Sklanskly liked this one.
lars
"I bet Malmuth and Sklanskly liked this one."
Hmmm...I wouldnt be too sure. The play you're talking about refers more to when the pot is big and there are more players in. With only 3 players and a mediocre pot, I dont think you have to play it the way you did. But that's just my opinion. I'm not a Sklansky or Malmuth :-)
Regards
It was FOUR-way and three-betted pre-flop...
lars
Ok..next time post the handhistory a little bit more easy to read, and you wont get any remarks like mine :-)
Regards
I doubt Sklansky, Malmuth, or half the other twoplustwo regulars would bother to read through the hand history you posted. If you can't take the time to weed out the crap and post a reader friendly history, why should anyone take the time to sort through it?
PG
Please make the hand format more user friendly in the future. Thanks.
As to your hand.
BTF: I like your 3 bet with JJ. Flop: You took a HUGE risk by checking. You need to
be certain someone will bet. I would have led
into the field here. Turn: I like your turn bet. Good reraise also. River: Why would anyone call you unless they at least
had a king? The AT has no business calling
you at the river. Risky river bet, but it worked
out.
Comments:
I agree that the three-bet pre-flop is ok.
On the flop, I also agree that I took a huge risk checking in first position, but lately I've been trying to variate my game a bit more (with good results), and this was $1/2, one limit below where I usually play, so I thought I'd experience a little. What I wanted, and have wanted the other times I've tried this move (checking early with several players behind yet to act after putting in the last raise pre-flop). And remember the flop is 8-5-2 rainbow! Sure, an Ace and possibly other overcards (but probably not the King, in hindsight) will kill me off on the turn, but then I'm prepared to muck having only invested 1 1/4 big bet (1/4 was small blind anyway) in this hand. Instead I end up winning an 18 big bet pot.
Few will drop to one small bet on the flop and many will often be correct to take that one card off. Anyway, with such a flop, I reckon I have just about 25-30 cards that will have me ahead on the turn too if it gets checked around behind me. Against a late bettor I will probably raise to try isolate already on the flop, but I've already said that.
The turn play is mandatory, and I would say that was easier for me to read cut-off for AT after getting it round-checked on the flop, as he would bet Tens in late position on a flop like that. Usually, I would be fearing for my Jacks even on this board, if my bet on the turn is called by one, raised by another and that raise is cold-called by a fourth party before it gets back to me. However, my flop play enabled me to read cut-off for a hand I could charge further.
IMHO, a bread and butter skill when playing Paradise (compared to live games), is to spot when a good, river value bet is in order. You get paid off a lot more on marginal hands at Paradise as opposed to live games, and since I won't get raised on the river unless somebody hit a SET of kings there, I could bet and get calls from a vast amount of hands, some which by chance may actually include a rivered pair of kings or kings up. I was also pretty certain that I was up against an Ace-Ten here and that button was on a draw.
lars
I've never player online poker before, so I would have to adjust to your logic. What you are saying makes sense. I'm still amazed you could value bet JJ at the river with a king on board and get called by a worse hand.As for me, I would NEVER call you with AT at the river. There must be some bad players in cyberspace. First,what hands could they play for 3 bets BTF? Second, even with a rag flop, no one bet 76 or A8 or 2 overcards on the flop. Third, to get 3 bets on the turn with only an overpair is hard for me to comprehend. sounds to me like you have found a home.
Ugly hand history. Most people will not even bother trying to read a hand history like this.
I am not sure if I re-raise with JJ in the SB pre-flop. But if I did I would lead out the betting on the flop hoping to get raised by the initial raiser.
Ken Poklitar
I'm pretty aggressive when I have a good hand, but that is pretty damn aggressive from EP.
Afternoon 4-8 game at Diamond L'ils in Seattle. Pretty tight and passive at this point.
UTG limps, all fold to me in middle position, I raise with AKo, folded to button who 3 bets. SB folds, BB calls, limper folds, I call. ($42 in pot). Button is an young, aggressive player, I have not seen him raise pre-flop much, AA once, KK once in a couple hours.
Flop is QT3 rainbow. checked to me, I bet, button raises, BB drops. I call. ($58 in pot).
Turn is 6--no flush draws. I check, button bets.
What is my play?
What is my river play if an A or K hits?
Results later. Thanks in advance.
KJS
KJS,
Given your description of the button, I think you should probably give up and fold the turn. You say you haven't seen him raise preflop very often, much less 3 bet preflop.
There's only one hand you can beat at this point which is specifically AJ. All other possible 3 bet hands at this point have you tied, beaten, and/or dominated. Your only "clean" outs are the 4 Jacks... a 13:1 shot where you're getting a little better than 8:1 for a turn call. In addition, you could be drawing to a split pot if he has AK as well.
At the very best, you have 8 outs if he has JJ... and that's a very big if given he raised you on the flop. Otherwise, I probably would have played the hand as you did. I especially like your bet on the flop to find out where he is and clear the field.
I really don't think an A or K on the river will help you much, it might just get you into more trouble. It's close between calling and folding IMO... given the specific hand that he holds. You're not drawing completely dead, just real slim. My vote goes for folding the turn.
I'm reading him for KK right now.
Look forward to results, Mike
I think you gotta lay this one down. You are not getting good enough pot odds for a call. I think you are behind given how high this kids pre-flop raising standard are. He's probably got and overpair and even if an A or a K hits you may still be in trouble. Plus you may be drawing to a split pot. I'd lay it down.
SS
I don't agree with betting the flop. You have every indication that the reraiser has a better hand before the flop. On top of that you have pretty much altogether missed the flop. I'd worry he had trips with this flop. If you bet this flop you can expect to be raised. You only have 4 strong outs, so why try to narrow the field? Those other players that you have made to call 2 bets cold were going to finance your draw. Now you are paying double for a slim draw and going heads up with what figures to be the best hand.
WGB,
With the limited info we have on the button player, it's difficult to determine if he has the best hand at this point. Given his limited raising history, it seems very likely that he does and I'm not denying that. However, given his position and the preflop betting, I'd definitely make it 3 bets with AK to get the blinds out and possibly play heads up or 3 way.
Don't know how KJS would classify button's overall play, but I'd suspect he's pretty decent and capable of laying down to strength if beaten. I've stolen a few similar pots by representing AQ in this scenario with button holding AK... not many but enough. A bet here gives KJS a chance to maybe see the turn for nothing if he chooses or bet his opponent out on the turn if he suspects weakness. A semi-bluff raise by the button is possible here with AK, to get hand heads up... but not likely.
I don't think the button would raise the flop if he flopped a set... he'd probably wait for the turn with a rainbow, semi-ragged board.
So, I think there is merit to KJS's flop bet, if nothing else to make his turn decision to fold somewhat easier. Otherwise, in a check/call scenario he loses 1.5 BB more. We both agree that the turn fold is in order, but for these reasons above I believe the flop bet out was correct.
Best wishes, Mike
wgb,
I agree with you that I am very likely beat here but I want to spend a bit on the cheap street to find out. If I check he is going to be with any hand and I will call with 12.5 SB and my gutsor hot. I would rather bet and see if I get raised or flat called. That extra info will help me make a better decision on the turn. There is also the outside chance he might laydown AK or JJ. Lastly, I don't want people isolated me with 3 bets later in the session hoping to see the turn for free.
KJS
I certainly agree with Mike's and your points about betting for information. Check-call here is a terrible strategy. But would anyone consider a check-raise? That would still be likely to chase the others out, and might make the bettor a little unsure of his hand. You said you believe he would certainly bet here if checked to.
Remember, you didn't take him to 4 bets before the flop, and then bet into him. What would he put you on? Most likely AQ, but if your read is correct, he probably has you beat. But a checkraise on this flop looks more like QQ, KK, or AA (probably the latter two as QQ would checkraise on the turn). If he reraises your checkraise, drop the hand now and forget about your turn draw. If he calls, you can adjust your turn play based on the card that comes. Unfortunately you have to act first. When the 6 hits, I would bet only if I thought him capable of dropping. Otherwise I would check, and he might bet anyway, but if you've made him unsure at all you may get a free card that you desperately need.
Just my thoughts.
Fallon
I agree that you are probably drawing dead to the AK. You are probably up against AA or KK or even QQ and you could spend a lot of money to find out. I'd be inclined to save my money and fight another day. But then I'm kind of paranoid. AK doesn't hold up every time and this looks like one of those times. The flop didn't hit you and you've got nada against a 3 bet. Muck it and go to the next deal.
I think a fold is correct. The button clearly has you beat. Your two overs are an illusion as well. The best chance is if the button has JJ or QJ, then you have 6 outs. Otherwise, it looks like the only live card for your hand is a jack to make the nuts.
Glad the forum agreed with my play:
I folded on the turn.
The button showed me KK. Nice call Mike Norton.
KJS
KJS,
I am sending you an email with some caculations... If you have any questions, let me know
I would like to see your calculations that make this a correct call. If you would post them, I would appreciate it.
Fallon
A typical, aggressive opponent will play AA, KK, QQ and AK in the same fashion. Against such an opponent, a call is clearly correct.
I realize this may be a very stupid comment on my part, but I don't see why a bet for information on the flop can be correct. It seems to me like you should either check and fold or check raise in that situation (where the button has 3 bet before the flop). I like to bet for information in that situation on the flop if there has been no raise preflop, but if the button has 3 bet preflop, it seems like he would call your bet no matter what on the flop. Then if the turn didn't help you'd have to check, which he'd interpret as weakness, he'd bet, and you'd have to drop. But if you check raised, he'd either reraise (you could then drop), or he would call your raise and check behind you on the turn, fearing another check raise attempt. In that case you would see the river for free and get a chance to catch your ace. Maybe this is totally fallacious thinking, but anyway that is just my two cents.
I agree with your thoughts on betting for information in this case. You have enough information when this guy 3 bets. I don't think he will check the turn after calling your checkraise and then having you check to him. A check raise is normally followed up with a bet and when you don't, he's going to bet. I don't think your free card play will work. Steve
4/8 hold'em - single big blind.
1) I'm in the cutoff with 33. Five players in before me. I call. Button calls. Blind checks.
Flop comes QQ3 rainbow. It's checked to be. I bet and it's called around.
Turn comes QQ3 4. It's checked to me. I bet. Button raises. All fold to me. I re-raise. He re-raises again! I go into check-call mode.
River comes QQ3 4 T. I check. He bets. I call. He shows 44.
Could I have played it better?
2) I'm in the Big Blind with K5 and get free play. Flop comes KsJsTh. I check and fold to an early position bet that got 3 calls before action was back to me. I'm folding top pair! But the board is highly coordinated plus a two-flush is showing. Is this a reasonable fold under the circumstances?
Thanks,
-Michael
Hand 1) I think you played it fine. One option is not to play baby pairs but set over set is rare so as long as you fold if you miss, the baby pairs are fine.
Hand 2) With that board and 4 players I think folding is correct. There will be times where you will be folding a winner but thems the breaks.
Ken Poklitar
For the first hand, you have to put him on AQ until the 4-bet. Then you are almost sure you are beat by 44, since most decent players aren't going to play Q4, even on the button. Of course, he would probably raise pre-flop with AQ on the button. Definitely call it down though.
For the second hand, lay it down. Even if you hit a 4 on the turn, you could already be behind to a bunch of higher two-pairs, sets, possible made str8s.
Bottom line -- Don't let these hands bug you, you played fine.
1) No
2) Yes, automatic fold
.
Is there any way to beat 11-handed $1-5 spread limit no-fold holdem (no rake) game ?
You're asking if you can beat a game where no one folds and there is no rake?!? I'd sure love to play in that game for the next year or so and let you know what I find out.
In some ways this can be better than a structured game. Against weak players, you can generally see the flop for much less (usually just a buck). This sure beats paying a minimum of 3 bucks to see the flop, even if they pots are smaller. You can play a lot more drawing and speculative hands. Also, when you raise, you can distort the odds more because of the spread. If someone bets one dollar and you have AQ or something similar that plays better in a short handed pot, you can throw 6 bucks in there and force all the people behind you who want to see the flop for 1 buck to now pay six. In most games, they will usually fold rather than call this. If they call with bad hands you gain anyway. I read somewhere that on the whole spread limit games are even more advantageous for the skilled player than structured games. So enjoy them, limp in a lot with your speculative hands, and remember when you raise, always raise the max to manipulate the pot odds and punish the draws. -Tim
No rake against players who play anything? Where do I sign up? Where is this game? Not at a casino or cardroom I'm guessing. In this kind of game you only need to play a bit tighter than your opponents to win, but your swings will be huge. Is there any charge to play?
There will be LOTS of situations that are "an exception to the fundamental theorem of poker", where you are much better off having the best draw than you are having the best hand. Flush draws, especially ace high, are gold in this game, as are any pairs. If you can get in for cheap, I would limp with all kinds of speculative drawing hands from just about any position, especially if the game is passive. When you DO have a hand like AKo, and flop top pair, make sure you bet and/or raise the MAX, to ruin the pot odds of draws. Also, keep in mind that someone betting the max into YOU may hurt your drawing odds to the point where you must fold rather than draw. And when you limp with weak hands BTF and someone raises a whole bunch, FOLD. I would love to play in this game, I don't have much doubt that over time I would clean up....
Dave in Cali
The key is to remember NOT to try to be overprotective of your hands preflop - you don't need to be capping the pre-flop betting with your premium hands, since no one is going to fold anyway.
also, don't bluff... bluffing in no fold'em hold'em doesn't work....
definitely loosen up on your starting hand requirements - i'd be playing any suited ace, and most connectors and one-gappers
nt
JK sounds like good advice. I have found that premium hands do not do so well in this game. Seems that other players have not figured this out and put in many raises. I just can't make myself call with the small, unsuited,and often unconnected cards that so often win. ....Blind bet is $2 minimum but many players blind bet the $5 max. and there are often strattle bets(people ARE gambling!)......There is a small rake by the house owner but he plays every hand and puts in way more than he cuts.
Hi folks,
I won a pot yesterday with pockets 8's and I am not sure if I should have called to see the flop in the first place.
I am in BB with pocket 8's. EP and MP caller, MP raises and SB reraises. So, four people in and it's two more bets to me. Do I call?
I'm getting 6:1 to see the flop but I have to be concerned of a a higher pair out there.
Flop: 5 6 7 (two hearts)
Small blind bets, I raise. One person cold calls and SB reraises. I call and other player calls. 3 players left. Should I have reraised to knock out the player in MP or just call?
Turn: 9
SB bets, I raise.
River: blank
I bet. SB calls and shows pocket 10's.
Any feedback is appreciated ... thanks
I am not sure what the right play is either but I always call simply because I think the decision is close and the agony I feel when an eight arrives on the flop will often put me in a frustrtaed state for the next little while. Not exactly a logic based response but that's exactly what guides my play in these situations.
BTW, there is one argument in favour of folding that i totally disagree with. The argument is that you should fold because one of your opponets probably has an overpair. But that to me is a good reason for *calling*. The ideal situation would be for one opponent to have AK and the other to have QQ. I certainly don't want one to have KQ and the other to have AJ even though in that situation, I have the best preflop hand.
I am not sure why you would rather be up against QQ/AK vs KQ/AJ. I would pick the latter since if there are no high cards on the flop you are more likely to win without hitting the set.
I did a quick sim and with 88 you win 20% vs QQ/AK and 33% vs KQ/AJ.
Ken Poklitar
I am not sure that the sims assist very much in this situation.
Suppose there was no further betting at all. Then, clearly you would rather take your 88 against KQ and AJ as opposed to AK and QQ. But actual game play doesn't work that way.
When I take a speculative hand like 88 against two preflop raisers, I am generally looking to flop a set not an overpair. When I do that I want to ensure that I get paid off handsomely i.e. perhaps multiple bets on the turn. That is most likely to occur when one of my opponents does have an overpair; it's even better when one has an overpair and the other has Ak/AQ.
The sims may suggest that 88 will win 33% of the time against KQ/AJ (although that sounds way too high to me) but I gather that assumes that 88 will see the hand to the river. That is unlikely in the face of 2 opponents who both showed preflop strength. Heck, you could flop the best hand (eg. T,9,2) and still be forced to muck on the flop.
skp, please explain your reasoning as to why a higher pocket pair gives you a reason to call.. I am baffled by this as in that case you absolutely *have* to hit your set (or a miracle flop like the one that gave you a straight in this instance).
Personally with a raise and reraise I would fold. Also the original poster is wrong to say he's getting 6-1 to put in 2 more small bets, its only 4-1, but 6-1 IF the other players call the two raises.
See my response to OhKanada
skp,
There is a post similar to this one on the mid limit forum where David Sklansky thinks calling two raises out of the big blind is close with pocket fives and four opponents. I thought it was an easy call.
I agree totally with your thoughts on the overpair. Coincidentally, an hour or so ago my long term mid limit pro friend looked at the post in the above paragraph and said he thought the chance of running into an overpair was a problem (due to set over set). Like you I think that an overpair creates the action you want when you flop a set. Of course with fives you will usually fold if you don’t flop a set where the eights might stay and get punished..
Regards,
Rick
I think for two raises against decent opponents that the 8's are worthless. I try to play a patient game, picking up smaller pots while I wait for the monster. I avoid problem hands like this by folding them, but I'm not confident in my ability to play them profitably. If you have a better sense for these hands, then by all means play them. I would need at least 4 callers in addition to the blinds to even begin to think about seeing the flop. Folding or calling are both reasonable here. Depends on your skill level. I'm too much of a beginner to feel good about cold calling 2 raises with a hand that obviously must hit in order to have a chance, and even if it does, might lose anyway.
nice catch. but ... the move is fold preflop.
if i just sit to the game, and don't know the players, i would fold to 3 bets with 88. I would even fold 99, TT, and perhaps JJ as well in a tough game.
however, with SB 3 betting TT in a multiway field ... it's clear you are playing against weak players. with that, i might call. (but that is a cautious might)
9-handed typical loose passive game, w/ one more loose/agressive player (he is the subject of my post in SB). Folded to me and I limp w/ A,10 in mid position, Two LP callers, and both blinds call.
Flop- A,8,9 rainbow
Both blinds check, I bet out and all fold to SB who check-raises me (I have seen him check raise draws and top-pair no kicker before. He is overly aggressive) with this information I decide to three bet. He calls.
Turn- 5 (A,8,9,5) complete rainbow
SB bets into me???? I am pretty sure that card didnt help and still believe I have the best hand but am not sure enough to raise so I decide I have got to call.
River- 7 (A,8,9,5,7)
SB bets again.... I really have no idea of what to put him on so I grit my teeth and call one last bet. I really don't like the way I played the turn or the river just calling him down. I hate doing that. Any ideas of how i could have played this hand differently will be much appreciated. I'll post results below.
SB flips over A,7 for the rivered two-pair and takes down a nice pot. I was right in my thinking that I was ahead the whole time so I guess my play wasn't that bad. I guess these are the breaks of low-limit HE.
Suppose you knew for sure that your opponent had check raised you with a draw or middle pair. Then wouldn't it be a mistake for you to three bet. Now you can get him for a bet on bith the turn and the raiver even if he doesn't improve. Furthermore, if he has check raised you with a better hand you would prefer not to three bet.
So given your descriptionof the player, I would just call him down.
Hi SS,
This is one of those situations, where you just got the worst possible favorable appearing flop. By the river, the only hands you can beat with an ace in it, are A4, A3, and A2. What do you think the odds are that he would checkraise and lead into you with any of those hands. I kind of suspect that you just ran into either 99, 88, A5s or 98. Any of these hands are certainly candidates for limping in the small blind.
The other hand that might be out there is JT that he might have semibluff checkraised on the flop, and then got nervous that he wasn't going to a make you pay once he hit his flop. That might be a strange way to play this hand, but sometimes opponents do strange things. (sometimes I do strange things ;o))
As far as playing it different, I would probably have entered the hand with a raise, MP is certainly late enough to try and steal from with AT, you may very well be not stealing, but just betting the best hand.the other thing you have to consider, is whether you actually want to call the turn bet. I think its rare that someone would check raise the flop, and then lead on the turn when they can't beat top pair, middle kicker.
now I'm getting tired, so I have to go, good luck,
Bob t.
For a loose/aggressive type in the SB with no raise and quite a few callers, wouldn't 76 (suited or not) be a reasonable hand to put him on? A check-raise on the flop with an open-ended straight draw doesn't seem out of the ordinary (looking for the free card on the turn if it misses), and then firing out when turning the nut straight seems to fit this play as well.
Any comments on my read would be appreciated. I'm trying to develop a feel for reading plays from descriptions of them (like in 21C HE and 21C HPFAP), so I can have a good arsenal when I hit the live tables.
Thanks.
Muck it pre flop or get used to being in uncomfortable positions.
Sounds like AQ or 76. A more distant possibility is that he spiked a second pair.
Unless he's really stubborn or aggressive enough to bet out when the turn gives him a draw, I probably would have folded on the turn. If I called on the turn and didn't improve on the river I'd fold there. However, I know some players against whom I'd never fold in this spot.
With a mediocre hand he should be worried about the combinaton of either being raised by a better hand (or by a worse hand if he can fold) or killing the action if you don't have anything. If he considers that you might have raised with a draw he should be worried about the turn card. The turn bet-out into the aggressor is usually a signal of greater strength than the river bet-out. Also, the pot isn't that big.
Another way of looking at the fold: if he often overplays the worst hand in this situation, you'll win so much more with hands better than AT that you can afford to lay down a winner here.
One complicating factor is that you didn't raise before the flop like you should have. This might lead him to discount the chance of you having a big ace.
I saw a game the other night which featured the tightest player in the game vs a maniac.
The bet was capped at 20 before the flop in a 4-8 game, two players, an early position raiser (very tight) and the BB (a maniac). The flop was QJ6 rainbow. The betting was again capped at 20.
Turn was a 2, still rainbow. The BB bet and tight player called.
River was a 7. The BB bet and tight player called. Tight player had AA. BB had 72 offsuit and took the pot with runner runner two pair.
Any comments? I thought it was ridiculous but after a while, I figured the maniac knew exactly what the tight player had, while the tight player had no clue.
"...I figured the maniac knew exactly what the tight player had, while the tight player had no clue."
This may in fact be true. However, if the maniac knew what he had, and had any sense, he would of course have simply folded like a normal human being with a brain. Of course that might be stretching it a bit with your average poker players.... The maniac simply tried everything to use his normal maniac tactics to get his opponent to fold, and wound up getting incredibly lucky (THAT is DUMB luck). However, morons will be morons, this will never change. The guy with aces probably got pissed off, but he should have thanked the moron for putting so much money into the pot when he was such a huge dog.
Dave in Cali
YES YES YES!! Dave is right.
When you have someone in the game that plays this way, you can sit back and wait for your turn. Eventually you will get heads up with him and hurt him real bad. Tight player slowed it down and lost less than most others would, so his play was fine. I played a hand for free from the BB recently with 4-5 offsuit. The flop came up 4 5 10 rainbow. 4 of us capped the flop. The turn brought out a blank, I bet got two calls and a raise, I just called. The river brought me a beautiful 4, I bet, fold, fold, raise, re-raise, cap. He turns over 99 for two pair, I show my boat. He says nice hand. Nice River that is. These are the guys I dream about playing with.
The tight player could've lost more, because when it's heads up, it becomes no limit. Needless to say, the maniac got lucky.
You're right. They both were so wrapped up in what was happening that they may have forgotten they could keep betting.
I have watched aa battle aa and kk vs kk and qq vs qq. I usually stop raising about 5 bets because i don't play no limit and i want to keep my averages in range. plus i don't think most player are that stupid. ron
there is something magical with maniacs and X2o, particularly 72o.
i've even seen it in no-limit tourneys i play where someone makes an all in move against a scary board, and turn over 72o.
... just another low limit unfortunate situation.
I was playing in an eight man, 50$ buy-in freezeout home tournament one time. We played five different limit games at two levels for one hour apeice, then the rest of the tournament was no-limit holdem. The first time my buddy Ed was UTG, he went all-in BTF. Everyone folded, and he turned over 72o. It was terrific, he was ecstatic while he was scooping the blinds into his stack. He was willing to risk it all to make an impression that would last forever with the people who saw it.... Plus, he knows that it ain't always just about money!
5-10 but a 10-20 kill pot. UTG bets and I am 3rd, I raise to 20 with AA and the Button and the UTG call.
Flop K-J-7 rainbow
Check to me, I bet and the button raises and UTG folds. The Button had been a solid and tight player and I put him on perhaps K-J at best. I called, planning to bet the turn, if a blank hit. Would a reraise have been the better play?
Turn 2
I bet and the Button only calls. I now figure that he could have less than K-J, perhaps only a J with a decent kicker A or Q.
River is a blank.
I figure that if I bet he would not call with only a J so I checked hoping that he would bet, which he did. I only called and I wonder if this was a mistake, was a raise the right play?
Results to follow.
He showed down A-J. I was ahead the whole hand and I have been wondering if I should have played it stronger. Thanks in advance for your answers.
Surprisingly, your opponent bets a pretty weak hand on the river. If he's the type of player that tends to over bet his hand, then next time consider to go for the the c-r on the turn against him and try to get him for 3 big bets.
Thanks for the advice. I feel that since I did not reraise him on the flop, he thought he had the best hand on the river, when I checked. At that point, I missed a bet by not reraising, next time I induce a bet, I will surely raise. Thanks again.
I think you played fine until the river. Since he did not raise on the turn I would have went ahead and bet the turn. I know you might have been faced with 2 bets, but he might have been holding K7 and folded.
IMO you shouldn't play the same hand the same way every time, even if it means giving up a little +EV along the way. So it is a little silly to say "No, you should have played this way..." What I try to do is play for what I believe to be maximum EV *most* of the time (75%?), and mix things up some of the time when I perceive my move to be a close choice.
OK...that being said I think most of the time I would reraise on the flop. I can't see a tight, solid player calling a raise with KJ or 77. He probably would have reraised with KK and may well have reraised with JJ, so I don't really think he has trips. I'm thinking the most likely hands here are AK, KQs, or AJs. If you reraise on the flop, bet into him on the turn, and get raised again, then I think it's time to consider folding.
Without looking at the result, I think I would tend to bet the river for value since your opponent has shown weakness and may be scared to bet the river. I'm going to check out the result now.
I like the check-call on the river. I don't think that he would call your check-raise with anything less than two pair, so I don't see any value in doing that. I also don't think he would fold two pair, so you couldn't get a better hand to fold. Although it is possible that there might have been a more optimal way for you to play it, I have no particularly harsh criticism of your play here. The one thing I might have done different would have been to three-bet the flop, then bet the turn, but if he made it four on the flop, I would call it down.
Dave, thanks for the comments. I agree that I could have been more agressive on the flop. I know that lack of aggressiveness has cost me in the past and I have been tring to work on that. Thanks again and good luck.
A hypethetical question for the hold'em experienced.
A similar experience recently happened to me in a 2-4 game. Since I can't remember the exact details, I will present as a 'hypethetical'
On the button with 4 callers to us. We hold Black pocket Kings and raise. Little Blind folds, Big Blind calls. Six of us in pot.
FLOP K-Q-10 all in Hearts. BB bets, there is a raise and reraise when the action gets to us and no one has folded yet. Question#1, do we cap the betting here with our top set ( and position )? Even though we could be against a made straight or flush already.
TURN 2 of hearts. BB bets again, one raise again and another caller. All else fold to me, 2 big bets to me. Question#2 Am I correct in assuming that we should call here, knowing we are currently beat, but trying to fill up.
RIVER = RAG BB checks, Middle position player bets now. Question#3 Even with the large pot, is a fold correct here?
Thanks in advance for your answers, I have been playing mostly stud in recent years, but I am trying to become proficient in hold'em.
CJ
P.S. - I folded the river, and sure enough the middle position player had the A high heart flush. BB called but never showed his hand.
Once others show a lot of aggression, I'd play top set as fast as possible even with a scary board like this. For one thing, you figure to have outs against anything but a str8 flush. Multi-way, your raises should have value even if you're currently beat. The other factor is, by playing fast you might save yourself money on the turn. On the river, it's inconceivable that someone doesn't have a heart in their hand. Even though this pot is HUGE, only against the trickiest (dumbest?) of players should you call and even then, you might consider raising to eliminate all hearts which are not the ace.
You have about a 33% chance for your top set (on the flop) to turn into a full house, so I would just call on the flop. I would want at least 2 people to stay in with me so I can justify my draw. If I raise and only one person stays in with me, then I don't really have the right odds to continue drawing. If someone raises when the flop is all one suit, that does not mean that they have the flush. They may have a lower set, 2 pair, or a nut four flush. But if someone reraises them, I would think that they do have a complete flush. I don't think most players would reraise in this situation with less than a flush. If they had a four flush they'd want to keep the person behind them in, and by forcing them to call a double bet cold, that isn't likely. Even if you cap the betting, it isn't going to force out the nut flush draw, and you want to keep at least 2 other people in there to justify your draw. So I would just call. If no heart falls on the turn, and everyone checks to you, I would probably bet. If someone has a flush here they will bet in all likelihood, if not they'd just check it. I doubt they would check raise here. Whenever 4 of a suit are on the board and somone bets, you can almost be sure they have the flush. You might want to fold here, but if you still have 2 people in you might call and take a look at the river card to see if you fill up. If not then it doesn't matter how big the pot is, I don't think, it is obvious someone has the flush and you fold. People are much less likely to represent it if they aren't heads up anyway. -Tim
Tim,
You have it backwards on the turn. What is important to calling is the size of the pot, not how many players are in. The number of players would decide if you want to raise on the turn. Surely, it the pot was a grand, you would call with the set hoping to fill up, even if you saw the flush. Surely, if the pot was zero, you would fold to the flush. So, there must be a range of pot sizes where calling is clearly correct, even if only one other player still had a hand.
You are 3.6 to 1 to fill up on the last card. If for some reason, the turn came to you 3 bet with 6 players, you would likely be raising for value.
Pat
On the flop, your chances of making your full house or better with two cards to come are slightly less than 40%, but with so many callers there may be another set out or there may be many players holding K, Q, 10 or combinations of the three. I would call, since you almost definitely need to improve, and there may be few cards out which will help you.
On the turn, you should call.
On the river, you should fold
Its fine to fill-in or even make-up the details; don't bother telling us. In fact, I wish MORE people would go ahead and fill in forgotton details.
Having said that, its important that you DO remember these details. Practice recalling a couple key hands per session.
You MAY get someone to fold some sort of straight draw who would play if you called; but that looks unlikely. You have little reason to cap it on the flop. If you feel your hand is worth a raise for value, then you can always call with a view towards raising the turn. I count about 15bb and it costs 2bb to call the turn; you have 10 outs and 3.5:1 dog for your 7.5:1 pot odds. Easy call. It would be a pretty tough call on the end even for one bet, hoping nobody has a flush AND two players willing to bluff twice.
Looks like a pretty straight forward hand played straight forwardly correct.
- Louie
Louie-
I disagree that there is little reason to cap it on the flop. First- It's not totally inconceivable that a top set of kings may be the best hand. Second- It might get capped anyway. Third- It would be catastrophic to let someone who may have folded, catch a non-nut flush or worse, a str8 to beat you. Fourth- It may cost you less money to get to the river if you ARE drawing. And Fifth- If you fill up, you'll be glad you capped it. On their own, any one of these reasons may not be significant, but when added up, I think they amount to more than a little.
[1] If a set of Kings is the better hand you'd be better off calling, hehehe, and raising the turn if favorable. [2] You should rarely cap it if someone else is going it [3] Yes, maybe you can get a hand to fold that is already worth betting/calling and is willing to call 2 more bets but not 3. But its no "catastrophy" since, by definition, the difference cannot be worth more than a single bet. [4] I have a real bad attitude towards "free card" plays but we can argue that separately. In this case, however, you MAY get two players to go for check-raises, and your free card saves multiple turn bets; but that's rare. [5] If you fill up you'd probably wish you had not raised, since your chances of raising the turn are better if you do not.
I suppose most of the above presumes the opponent WILL bet a hand less than yours on the turn if you do not cap it. If not (i.e. they are conserned with your call) then there would be good reasons to cap it.
- Louie
You should think of your situation like this: What if you had As5s and the flop came Ks 8s Jh? Would you stay in the pot if the action was the same as you faced? Now in that case, IF you happened to be up against a set, a spade that paired the board would be no good, but other than that, you would have a premium draw, and it would probably be pretty darn hard to fold. Well, with your set of kings, you have seven outs to a boat or quads going into the turn, and ten outs going into the river. Furthermore, you are likely to get good action on your hand when you hit, and you can be virtually certain that all your outs are good. I would have played it the same way here, you knew you were probably beat, but you had a premium draw, so you HAD to go to the river. I don't think it was necessary to pay off on the river, unless you were the last one left in the pot, in which case I may have considered calling against certain opponents. I think you played it fine.
Dave in Cali
I am under the gun in a shorthanded (6 player) 3-6 HE game. I have KK, both red. I raise. One middle position player, the cutoff, and the button all call. Flop is 2s-2c-5s. I bet out, only the cutoff calls. The turn is the 5c (board 2s-2c-5s-5c). I check. He bets. I wonder if he may have a pocket pair or an ace? I don't think he would have played a 5 or a 2 unless he was playing A-Xs. I only call. (Should I have check raised?) The river is a red 6 (2-2-5-5-6). I check, he bets and I call. He flips over two black sixes and I muck.
I probably would've lost 1 more big bet than you did. I would value bet the turn and see what happens then playing according. Plus, there's a possible flush on the board, so no free card.
Given that he has two sixes he will call if you bet the turn. You just got unlucky.
test
Sorry for the test message. I got rejects earlier.
1. With KK, the overcard you are concerned with is
an ace. I think check/calling is correct. It you
bets and your opponent raises, you probably have
to fold. If your opponent does not have a 5 or a
2, he will fold. If he did not have a overpair, he
would have checked.
2. Same type of play at the river. Bad beat.
I've been faced with a dilemma a couple of times in the last week. Basically, if you're facing an opponent against whom you don't have a large amount of info, and he waits until the turn to show aggression, when is it correct to fold?
For instance, playing on 0.5/1 Paradise last week I have 99 in mid position and open raise. Only the blinds call. The flop is 347 rainbow. The action is check-check to me and I bet. SB folds and BB calls. The turn is another 4. I get checkraised and I call. The river is another 7. This time its bet and I raise (probably unadvisedly) and BB calls. He turns over 56o for the straight.
Another case, I'm playing 3-6-12 hold'em and I'm in BB against a straddle. It's folded to me and I call the straddle with J9s. The straddler raises and I call. The flop is J77. I bet and get called. The turn is a 9. I bet and am raised and I call down. Straddler shows 7c4c and takes the pot.
I find that I'm usually beat when an opponent waits for the turn to raise. But, especially heads-up, when I have a semblance of a hand I don't have any good criteria for when to call down, when to reraise and show continued aggression, and when to fold it.
Generally speaking, when you are raised on the turn, you likely have the worst hand in both examples that you gave so folding would appear to be the proper play. But if you are a regular in a game and folded every time that someone raised you on the turn, you are doomed because they will then see it to that you see a lot of turn raises (well, at least they will at the 20-40 level, I really can't comment at the micro levels).
I tend to call such raises (probably more often than I should) knowing that I am probably beat in order to ensure that such raises come only when I am beat.
I don't know if that makes sense.
I think this depends a lot on your opponents. Is he a tricky or a straight forward player? If he's the latter case, then most of the time I would fold if I don't have at least two pairs. If he tends to bluff, and will try put moves on you, then you may have to call more often so you don't get push off the pot too easily.
In your example #1, assume you don't know the player, calling him down heads up is fine, but why raise on the river? The river raise is just plain donation.
Hand #2, against a straddler, and you flopped top pair, you pretty much have to go to the river with him. It's just bad luck that he flopped a set with a crap hand. That's just part of poker.
In general, against most opponents, when they wait till the turn to raise, top pair is beat. The times when this is not true is when you are against very aggressive opponents who are either very tricky or are constantly trying to buy the pot. In the absence of this type of info, you should usually consider yourself beat when someone waits till the turn to raise you. In the first example, the first thing I thought was "straight on the flop". In the second example, most straddlers won't play that way unless they have the seven. If they have a jack (or some other hand), they won't wait till the turn to raise. The best thing about opponents who wait till the turn to raise is that it is usually OBVIOUS that you are beat, and you can play accordingly. They wind up winning less of your money because you can make better decisions against them because of their "obvious" play.
Dave in Cali
Hi guys,
Sorry for the hockey reference, but being a Canadian with a slight penchant for hockey, I couldn't resist. Expect me to post about Lindros, Bourque, Lemieux, and Pronger in the future, and maybe I'll even get Gilmour in my big blind one day and post that too. (If you catch why Gilmour works, you get a gold star...)
However ... getting back to the task at hand ...
A couple of nights ago I played this hand that has stuck with me. It's not spectacular, but I have some issues with how I played it, so I thought I'd post it here to solicit comments from the forum. I am not posting my thoughts about the hand to avoid influencing the discussion.
The game at this stage is nondescript. There are no particularly good players and only one truly bad player. The game is playing very passive, with players ranging in looseness. There are maybe three or four people seeing the flop on average, although larger, multiway pots are certainly not a rare occurrence.
I hold 9s9c in early position. A weak player to my immediate right is first to limp in. I debate raising to isolate him with the probable best hand, but elect just to limp based on by read of the field behind me. Four others limp, and the BB checks. 7 players, 7.5 sb in the pot.
The flop comes 5c 7c 8c. Checked to me, I bet. 3 callers behind, and the weak player to my right calls as well. There are 5 players, 12.5 sb in the pot.
The turn card is the Th. Checked to me, I bet. 3 call, and now weak player check-raises all-in to 14. We all call, bringing the pot to about 12 bb.
The river brings the Js, and we all check.
I won't spoil the surprise with the results either, but I am interested in your commentary on how I played the hand.
Please comment/criticize/lambaste/fold/spindle/mutilate at will!
Dave
I would have raised pre-flop. Nines probably do best heads-up or three-way with a blind (with probably only 2, possibly 3 overcards that will beat them), but are also, unlike Sevens and Eights, strong enough to be profitable/very slightly unprofitable in a field with any number of players in. Therefore, it wouldn't be disasterous even if your raise pre-flop was called by all these players.
I like betting the flop, I like betting the turn and I like checking the turn, even though I have a feeling that card, if you weren't behind already, killed you off.
More interesting is how you'd react to a bet from another player on the river. Clear fold?
lars
Hi Lars,
I agree that raising preflop is a close decision, and I did consider it. I ended up deciding just to call and let in a large field to provide excellent implied odds to go for my set. But I agree that raising might have been better.
As for what I would have done on the river had one bet come at me ... I probably curse and call with my one-card straight given the size of the pot. However, if there is a bet and a raise, or even a bet and an overcall from a reasonable player, then I'm very likely going to muck.
Thanks for the response,
Dave
You state a "weak" player raised on the turn. I think your beat in this spot. Fold the turn.
Hi Tom,
Fold the turn for only another $2? (The weak player went all-in on the turn.) At that point I'm getting proper odds to draw to my 1 out straight flush!
Dave
I stand corrected. Yes, you can call 1 extra chip for the str8 flush draw. I figured your opponent had the nut flush on the flop. If he was a aggresive, tricky player, I would have called a full raise.
Dave,
You won't impress me until you win with an offsuit Dryden....
Anyhoo,
A raise preflop is not an altogether bad idea to thin the field and try to get heads up. You have to bet the turn with overpair, gut shot straight draw, and possible straight flush draw. The downside is a made flush will likely slowplay given the amount of people in the hand. The turn is a decent card, as it gives you a double belly buster, and due to the board it may cause anyone who made a straight with it to play passively. The check raise indicates that you are likely beaten, but if he is weak, he may be pumping his 6. In any case he is all in for an extra $2, I think this is a no brainer call. After all call the extra $2 on the turn, I might think about betting the river. I think you would've likely seen aggression from anyone with a made flush, and even if the all-in guy has it, he can't hurt you any more. Might as well build a side pot and try and recover some.
Feel free to flame away.
Go sens go.
I'd like to know who the weak player is, but I think there is a factor that most people are not considering; he is going all in. He may be going all in with nothing pretty much, just a "get these chips out of my hand and let me go home" type all in move.
The call on the turn is very easy; there is about $75 in the pot, which amusingly enough almost gives you the odds to call for the 6c for your straight flush (you are getting around 37-1 on your 45-1 shot).
That said, you don't have much other alternative on this hand but to bet the river. I would actually like to reraise the turn, but I realized just before posting that that is not legal (you would be raising yourself). So, you have to bet the river and hope to get some calls to help recoup the possible loss of the main pot.
I suspect you managed to trade in your Gretzky for a nice pile of cash, not unlike what happened in real life. Personally, I'll take the Mark Messier pair of 1's any time.
So, after checking down the river, I was very pleased to discover that I was the lone winner. I ended up needing that Js on the river though, as weakie had me beat the entire way with TT (with Tc). Thank goodness he was short-stacked ... I don't know how I would have reacted to a full-strength check-raise on the turn. (At that point I count one surefire out, and six questionable ones.)
I'm glad that both Big Jase and Ottosen brought up the river play, as that was one area where I wondered about my choice of action.
My thinking at the time was that it was unlikely that I would elicit calls from a weaker hand given that there were three parts to a flush and four parts to a straight on the board. Someone with an overpair and a big club will very likely fold, as will two pair. About the best I can hope for is somebody with a set grimly calling on the end. Should anybody else have a 9, they split with me (although betting MAY get them to fold and save me half a pot), while any flush that has been slowplaying will now raise, and given the size of the pot, I will have to be very sure of my read to avoid paying off.
What do you guys think of this reasoning?
Dave
Since nobody commented, here's the simple reason.
Doug Gilmour wore #39 when he was part of the Stanley Cup winning team in Calgary in '89. When he was subsequently dealt to Toronto, someone there was already wearing that number and refused to switch, so Gilmour reversed the numbers on his jersey and played as #93 for the remainder of his career.
So, despite the fact that he does not have a paired number, we can use 93o or 39o as the "Gilmour" hand, since he wore both orderings over the course of his career.
Stupid Hockey Trivia 101.
Dave
In the San Francisco area, a lot of people fall in love with the "49er". 49 offsuit they call, 49 suited, they raise!
Dave: I should have thought through your 99 hand more
carefully. Sorry about that. Your logic on the
river is basically correct. If you had better
position or only 1 opponent, you could have bet
the river. The turn call makes sense too.
Before the flop, in a LP game, you can value
raise with 99. If your game is aggresive or tough, it makes sense to limp.
I'm in a loose online game and dealt AQos. I'm in middle position and it's raised and reraised to me. I fold for the three bets. I'm sure the reraiser has AA or KK (Which it turns out he does, KK). I'm also pretty sure the origional raiser will cap it, which he does. Was this a good fold? Is it ever correct to call a reraise with AQ? What hands are correct to call with when you are sure it will be three or four bets to see the flop? Should you fold AQ when you're sure you're up against KK or AA? (This reraiser would only do that with KK or AA.) Turns out I would have won the hand (and a big pot) with a pair of aces with top kicker. The origional raiser had Axs. Thanks.
Good fold
Is it ever correct to call a reraise with AQ?
*** Sure it is, if your opponents raise too much.**
What hands are correct to call with when you are sure it will be three or four bets to see the flop?
***Usually, I want TT-AA or AK. ***
Should you fold AQ when you're sure you're up against KK or AA? *** AQ is garbage against AA, KK, or QQ. **
Your play isn't close. You should fold the AQ in this spot. A more interesting question is when you should fold or reraise with the AQ when it is only two bets to you? There is a good discussion of this in John Feeney's book Inside the Poker Mind.
I think you probably would save money in the long term if you dump AQs facing 3 bets against reasonable opponents. Even AKs may not be so good facing 3 bets, but I'll let others elaborate on that.
" Should you fold AQ when you're sure you're up against KK or AA?"
YES. You are WAY behind, WAY, WAYYYYYY behind, ESPECIALLY if he has AA! You should often fold AQo for even ONE raise. It's virtually NEVER correct to CALL three bets cold with AQo, it's just not that great of a hand in the first place, and the vast majority of players WON'T three-bet BTF with LESS than AQo, so it's clearly a fold. It looks pretty, but it won't look pretty when you have 2nd best on the river. This hand was an abberation, the vast majority of the time you would have lost big.
n/t
what's the best cardroom in Atlantic City? I will be there tonight
Go to the Taj Mahal.
Its the largest card room, and almost always has good games going at those limits.
peace beeb
Actually now i'm going to Foxwood's.
There I was...At the Mirage in Vegas playing a very loose 3-6 no-foldem holdem.
I was in the BB, there were 2 very loose, very bad players in the game, one of them sat on my right. These 2 players would call with just about anything. And also raise with just a little bit better.
There were 5-7 people seeing the flop every time. And being raised pre-flop 70% of the time!!!!
I was delt J5c in the BB.
It went all the way around to me with 7 players.
The flop came 6c 8h 9c
SB checked, I bet and bad player to my left raised and all called to me. I re-raised.
Two players folded and 5 called.
Turn was a 2d
I checked, the bad player bet, one folded and I called. (Should I have Bet or raised?)
River was a 7d.
I bet, bad player called and one other called.
I thought for sure that the bad player had 7T, I thought about checking the river, but he had been playing such bad cards, I could not put him on anything. I thought if I was raised, I knew I was beat, if called I thought there may be a chance of splitting the pot.
Anyway, please critique my play in this very loose game.
Walleye Results to come
N/t
Easy pump on the flop with the flush draw and many opponents.
On the turn, since this is a very loose game, you can not get tricky. Just bet your hands for value. Since you are on the draw a check call is in order.
On the river, I would not have bet because I lone T beats you.
Derrick
I think river is a check-call situation with two other players still in the hand. It's highly likely that someone has a T.
Bad player had pocket 8's
Other caller dumped his cards when I showed the 5.
The flop came 6c 8h 9c
SB checked, I bet and bad player to my left raised and all called to me. I re-raised.
*** You must have been in the "gamble mood". Neither of your draws are to the "nuts". Plus, bad player should have 4 bet. *****
Two players folded and 5 called.
Turn was a 2d
I checked, the bad player bet, one folded and I called. (Should I have Bet or raised?)
***** Check/call is correct ****
River was a 7d.
I bet, bad player called and one other called.
****** I don't blame bad player for calling. The
other guy made a huge error. He should have
either raised or folded. Here, I would have
check/called the river. ************
hello everyone,
I plan to start playing the hold'em 4-8-12 at my local casino. However, I have a few questions about the game. One, Should I have a 4-8 bankroll or a 6-12 bankroll to play? What should my hourly average be in this game? and should I play slightly more drawing hands because of the higher implied odds?
thanks,
fred
1. It sounds like you can play on a little more
than a 4/8 roll, and a little less than a 6/12
roll. I think a good starting point would be $3000.
2. Assuming you are the best player at the table, I
would think $10-12 per hour a reasonable goal.
3. Questions: When can you bet $12? Only at the river?
Or is it 4-8 for the first two rounds, then 4-12 after that?
TR,
Sorry I didn't specify, but the game I refered to in my previous post is a standard 4-8 limit game with a 12 dollar bet on the river.
Ok, Jim Brier wrote an article in CardPlayer about this type of game. I think it came out about a month ago. I don't remember the exact issue.
Hi, new around here. New to poker. What would you do in this situation: After the flop, I have an open ended straight, with the board showing a K and a Q to my 10-J. Turn is a blank for me but brings a third club to the board, and I am holding no clubs. There is still four-way action at this point, I am under the gun and check, next person bets and then is raised by the next. Last person calls. Even though the pot justifies me going for the straight I muck because there was already a potential flush staring me in the face. This hand was very frustrating because the river bought my ace and it turns out that the eventual winner - the raiser at the turn - only had trip kings (he had slow-played his KK pre-flop). What do you do in this situation, where the pot justifies your going for your straight but it might already be beaten? Thanks in advance.
Gotta know your players. Would the bettor bet into the field without a flush? Would the raiser raise without the nuts here? What about the player who called the raise cold? What was the preflop action like? How about on the flop? Did it check around, then action started when club hit?
Not a simple yes or no question, but in this case I think it's a good fold.
PG
Allan,
You specify that the pot justifies going for the straight, which means the answer is easy: you go for the straight.
The question becomes did you figure the pot odds correctly, i.e. what pot odds justify going for the straight in your book?
Here is how I figure it...
You are roughly 5-1 to river the straight, but I don't think you want to see the Ac or the 9c on the river, so you might only have 6 clean outs at best. That puts the odds at 6.7-1. That is the minimum you need to justify a call.
You don't state the action, but assuming 4 SB pre-flop and on the flop, and the 5BB's put in on the turn before action is on you, I see you getting 9-2 on your call, or 4.5 to 1. There may be another raise behind as well. If doesn't seem you have the pot odds to justify a call even if the flush isn't already there.
If the pot was much bigger for some reason (lots and lots of players called pre-flop and flop), giving you better than 7-1, you have to then take into account the possibility that the flush is already there. So, how much of an overlay do you want to account for the risk of hitting the straight and still losing the hand? With a bet, a raise and a cold call, I put the chance of a made flush pretty high. If you figure 50-50 chance of a made flush (here is where Poker Geek's advice on knowing your players is handy), and that a 4th club hitting the river certainly makes a flush; you can figure the rough odds you need to take off a card.
13% chance of hitting your straight with no other clubs. Half you win, half you lose so:
.065 * -3 bets = -.195 when you hit but lose .87 * -2 = -1.74 cost when you miss the river. .065 * X = 1.935 formula for bets you need to win to cover costs. Looks like 29-2 is a fair price to peel a card on the turn. So, it looks like even a better fold on the turn.
Without numbers, it is difficult to get a feel for these decisions. Putting numbers on scenarios can really highlight them. You need a lot of money in the pot to cold call 2 big bets to peel another card.
Pat
Let me ask a question. If your opponent had the nut clubs after calling a turn raise cold and you bet your straight and lost, how would you feel?
1. The very first thing to think about is can you
win at all? On the turn, you have anywhere from
0-6 outs. You are confronted with 2 bets on the turn just to draw. Understand, a successful player
wins about 1-1 1/2 big bets an hour, so this is a
steep price.
2. Another thing, you will have to make the str8 to
win. You can't bet a missed draw as a bluff and
win. With 3 opponents and poor position, you are
in trouble in most cases. Also, with 3 clubs on
board, the betting action usually slows down.
3. In your specific case, you should fold unless you
are completed convinced the flush is not on board.
To call 2 bets cold on the turn, you usually need
a draw to the nuts.
Online, 3/6. I'm in the big blind with 9's. UTG calls, MP raises, SB calls, I call (mistake?) UTG reraises (hmmm), all call. Flop 4c 3s Ah. Not good. SB checks, I check, UTG bets (duh), MP folds, SB calls. Pot's giving me 14:1 odds right now, not quite enough to draw to a set, but I've seen UTG do all kinds of fishy stuff during the game (raise early with any paints, etc), plus he's very short stacked, so I don't know what he's trying to pull. I call (mistake, right?) Turn is a beautiful 9s. SB checks, I check, UTG of course bets, SB calls, I check-raise. UTG reraises. Uh oh. SB folds, and I call. River is a rag, I check, he bets, I call. He turns over AJo(!!!), and I take down a rather large pot. I have a feeling I played this like an idiot on every single street, but of course I don't know for sure until I get flamed by everyone on 2+2 :) So fire away!
Well calling on the flop is a mistake but after that you played fine. An UTG limp-reraise is often AA or KK, so you can't really push much harder after the 3 bet on the turn.
I think you played fine and got somewhat lucky on the turn. I suppose if UTG is a big fish, then the calling of 1 bet is ok. But if UTG is a non-maniac, then I think once you've missed flopping a set, it's time to dump the hand.
If UTG was a big fish, you can make a weak argument for calling heads up, but you also have the SB in the hand who cold called 2 pre-flop and called the flop.
Buddy of mine was in a game last night with a maniac. One of his more astute observations was how bad the rest of the table played when a maniac was in the pot. Everyone figured they had the maniac beat so they were peeling cards left and right with no respect for the other players in the pot. His comment was premium hands made huge pots because of all the extra calling. The maniac-fish is a fish because he overplays hands and calls way to much. Why would you think it is optimum to play the same way when others are in the pot?
As to the hand, calling the flop was an easy call, Grade A. Calling the turn was awful no matter how you cut it D-. Given your read of the player I agree you should have went another bet even with the limp re-raise, grade B. And, I bet the river as well, grade C.
Pat
Every street?
BTF- I see nothing wrong here. 99 is a decent hand,
plus you have good implied odds.
Flop- Your drawing at 2 outs IF your opponent does not have AA. Bad call here.
Turn- I would have 4 bet here. You don't fear AA because you called the flop raise.
River- I would have bet the river.
See here:
It looks to me like you collected 5 big bets (3 on turn from the guy, 1 from SB, then 1 from the guy on river). It just turns out that he did most of your betting for you.
This is 10 small bets, or, retrospectively looking at your implied odds on the flop, you were getting 24-1 as compared to your immediate pot odds of 14-1 at the time. That to me looks like a favorable draw, especially since you fold the turn if you don't help, right?
I think you've failed to consider the times you will hit your nine and lose anyway.
give yourself credit for a good read of the player. if he was a tighter player....well, mightve been different. still good call for the turn. if no 9 hits yer gone. but if you read him early as a raiser with any paint, and you got him headup on the turn with a set...then a rag on the river....to the showdown you go. it looked like a nice play to me. bonus again for knowin yer opponent.
First of all, thanks to those who responded to my first post. I see there is tons more I need to learn just to be stop being a fish. :)
My next question is about loose play from late position. Is this an absolute necessity to be a winning player? Setting aside the predictability factor for a little while (let's say one can play against a different set of competent strangers everyday for the rest of his life), can a tight player win in the long run by playing early position as he is supposed to, but playing both middle and late position as if he was in middle position? My question is only limited to choice of starting cards to play. Or in other words, is loose pre-flop play from late position an important factor in shifting returns from red to black?
Thanks in advance once again.
I've yet to see someone play too tight pre-flop. Not even close. If you are just learning, that should be the very least of your worries.
You need to watch the terms you use. Most definitions of "loose" mean you are playing too many hands, so by that measure you never want to play loose except to vary your play which a) you say isn't a consideration for this question, and b) generally isn't needed at the vast majority of tables below 10-20.
To answer your specific question, yes, I think you can win by use mid-position starting requirements for late position. It is a great idea while learning. Most of those marginal hands the books have you playing in late position need a great deal of expertise to play profitably and probably cost money to beginners. I'm sure they cost me money when I followed the book religiously when first starting. Several thousand hours later I still haven't added most of them back to my playing repertoire.
Bottom line, it is an absolute necessity that you don't play marginal hands when learning, and it is never necessary to play marginal hands to get into the black. When you get really good, they may add a bit to your win.
I think it was Tommy Angelo who had an interesting post a while back on this subject. He discussed playing super, super tight for a very long time and still winning money, even while playing with the same players from time to time.
Good luck and play tight,
Pat
x
Hi Allan,
Premium hands are where most of your profit is found. Having an overpair, Top pair-top kicker, a set, or the nut flush, and being called by dominated hand is what makes you most of your money in low limit. If you play those early and mid position hands, you will be in many situations where the hands play themselves profitably.
You can definately win money by playing only those hands.
There is some profit available going farther down the list, but in order to make those hands profitable, you need to play those hands very well. That means picking the spots where you can play them. What are the players to my left going to do? Does it seem that I will be able to play this for a single bet? If I raise now will I get control of this hand. How and what do the players who have already entered the pot play? What is my current image, can I use it, and how will this play affect it? Will I be able to determine if I am in a dominated situation and release my hand? Do I alway count the pot and compare it to my outs so that I can draw profitably?
If I sit here all afternoon, I can probably come up with another 20 questions. Of course you can't consider all of each time this situation comes up, but you have to consider some of them, and if you pick the right ones, and come up with the right answers, then you can expand the list of hands which you can play profitably.
It seems to me, as a general rule, in loose games, which most low limit games are, it is more profitable to wait and play mostly premium hands. In tighter games, aggresion pays off more, and you can more safely expand the list and play more hands aggressively.
You can also let your opponents tell you how to play, If you find that you are rarely being paid on the river, maybe you can play a little more often and play aggresively. On the other hand, if every pot ends in a showdown, you better have something to showdown when you get there.
Anyway, hope I gave you something to think about, Good Luck,
Bob T.
Very well written and sound advise. mg
is there a decent hotel in vegas at an affordable rate?? iam thinking 50$ a night total for 2people is that at all possible??
please help me ty
The Orleans poker rate is about $50 ($40 weekday and $60 weekend I believe). Their playing requirements to obtain that rate are quite lax. Plus I just read somewhere you now get $1.50/hour in food comps (up to $9/day) for every hour of poker played. The rooms are I believe among the nicest in Vegas for the money. Check out their website for a picture.
I've stayed at the Orleans and I wouldn't recommend it.
It's far from the strip and, while the rooms are pretty good, the clientele is dirtier and more unwashed than what you usually find on the strip.
You want cheap? Stay at the Western! (I hope you have life insurance.)
On weekdays here are some good values for under 50 bucks -
Stratosphere - if you're lucky you can get these rooms as cheap as 20 bucks a night.
Sahara - a good value. 35-40 bucks a night
If you don't mind staying in a dive, you can stay at palace station. I had heard some good things about the station hotels and decided to give it a try since the rooms were only 25 bucks a night.
What a disappointment. Sure, I'm not complaining about the price - it was cheap enough. But what a dump!
The Western is only 16 bucks a night EVERY DAY, but from what I've heard you get what you pay for.
Check out these web sites:
www.cheapovegas.com
www.lvrs.com
www.expedia.com
www.travelocity.com
Good luck!
There is a free frequent shuttle from the Orleans to the strip. A cab is about $5. Takes about 5 minutes.
Nothing wrong with the clientele IMHO. Lots of tourists and locals that don't play too well.
The rooms at the Orleans are 2 to 3 levels above all the places you mentioned. 5 levels in the case of the Western.
I also suggest that you use Travelocity, and also would recommend the Las Vegas Club and the Four Queens downtown. I wouldn't be suprised if you can find a room for $30 at either of these places and you can skip the Life/health insurance.
From downtown, you MIGHT be able to take some kind of shuttle from the Golden Nugget (also downtown) to the Mirage where you might play Keno, Craps, or, I don't know, maybe Poker??
If not, the bus is $2 each way from Downtown to the Strip and back.
I also would recommend the Sahara. You can get a room for about $40 a night and it has a nice little poker room. I understand that they just started up some no limit tourneys with small buyins.
5-10 and I am in the SB with JJ. UTG raises, he has raised in the past with middle pairs and KQ unsuited, it is folded around to me and I call. I now feel that this was a mistake. A reraise could have easily folded the big blind and I would have had a better read on the UTG by what he did. The flop came A-7-4 rainbow,I checked and UTG bet and again I called. I believe that I should have bet out or check raised. I never knew where I was in the hand because I never put any pressure on the UTG played. My question is am I playing the hand the in hine sight, the way it should have been played? Thanks in advance for any and all input.
I think you have to 3 bet pre-flop. Then bet out on the flop and if he raises you I think it's safe to fold.
I think this is very much an "it depends" type of question. I don't think you missed any mandatory plays through the flop.
I think calling pre-flop is probably the best play. You're going to be out of position the entire hand, and there are lots of possible flops that you won't like. Three-betting may knock out the big blind, but he may be folding anyway, and who knows, maybe you want him in. Whatever you do pre-flop, bet the flop. If the other fellow raises, you can probably safely lay down. If you just check, you'll never know where you are.
I'm not sure that against a good player, betting the flop will get you any closer to knowing where you are.
I think this is a spot where it's important to employ proper game theory. Betting, check/calling, check/raising and dare I say check/folding (against certain players) may all be correct.
Yes, 3 bet BTF in the small blind with JJ. You would love to be heads up here.
Typical low limit game. I pick up the Ah and Kc in the middle.
1 limper (EP) to me, there are 3 players behind me and the blinds. These players are probably coming along whether I raise or not and I will have to showdown the best hand to win, so I decide to just limp and see if I like the flop. Should I still be raising with this hand strictly for value?
Anyway, MP and LP behind me limp, the SB folds and the BB checks.
The flop is QJT, two diamonds. The BB bets and EP raises, I 3 bet, everyone folds to EP who calls.
Turn is a non-diamond 9.
EP bets, I raise, he 3 bets, I cap, he calls.
River is blank, I've got the nuts, EP checks, I bet, he calls.
My main question is: Did I play the flop too fast? Do I want to be shutting out the players behind me by 3 betting or should I maybe wait for the turn?
I don't want diamonds drawing cheaply, but I would sure like weaker hands like 1 pair to call behind me.
Comments?
I would have played it the exact same way. With a possible daimond draw out there you have got to make them pay the maximum by 3-betting, don't let them draw out on you cheaply. And you can't even think you played the flop to fast when you got to cap it on the turn. Get money in the pot while you have the best hand. On a side note I probably would have raised pre-flop strictly for value plus you may get lucky and force a blind or someone behind you to fold.
I think the only mistake you made was not raising preflop. You dont only raise preflop for value, but you also get the advantage of being the "aggressor", and you still might buy the button. It makes hand reading more easy if you're the aggressor, because people will be less likely to bluff into you.
Regards
Preflop, you definitely want to raise. AK is one of the most profitable hands in hold 'em. If your opponents will come in with any two against this powerhouse you are giving away precious bets. Of course, if they all just call and the flop comes Q97 2-suited or something, you can always check-fold or take a free card later, although in other situations you'll want to bet overcards.
I'd raise on a flop like this (especially if I limped so that the won't suspect AK) and with many flopped straights with big cards because my opponents will more often have a doomed piece of the flop if I don't have a pair. 3-betting, however, is a real action killer. I think you can afford to slowplay the nuts on the flop (unless it were possible for a flush draw to fold to 3 bets, unlikely in most LL games). OTOH, if you knew the EP player is as aggressive as he appears, so that your 3-bet will not only hook him for the rest of the hand but inspire him to resteal, etc. if a scarecard comes, then by all means keep it simple and pound away.
I think the thing here is that if a scare card comes, he indeed IS very likely to be beat. Flopped broadway straights on a two-tone flop after SIX players have seen the flop can't stand many scare cards, particularly if it goes three bets on the flop.
I think he played it correctly, many players could have a piece of this flop and with two cards to come and still on the 'cheap streets', people will ram and jam with hands like AQ (top pair, top kicker, gutshot to the nuts), KQ, QJ, QQ, JJ, any two diamonds, even pairs to go along with a nine or an eight. From my experience in low limit Hold'em, people are a lot less likely to give great action on the turn unless holding the nuts or something very close, and although your hand is admittedly far more likely to stand up being the nuts with just one card to come, I think it's right to play this hand excactly the way Tom did.
The fact that he actually got some action the turn too only works as a bonus.
Nice hand.
lars
"many players could have a piece of this flop and with two cards to come"
If they'll call 3 cold with any piece of the flop, clearly you should 3-bet. As for scarecards, it's not likely that 3 bets in this kind of game will knock out the hand that can beat a broadway with one card to come (e.g., 2 pair, flush draws). If so, the question becomes whether you want to charge them 2 extra sb's with better odds on the turn (unless the action suggests you're beaten) or extra 1 sb on the flop.
You might be right, however, expecially if the flop raiser is unlikely to bet the turn without a huge hand, having failed at knocking out the downstream callers. In all but the most passive games, however, the flop raiser will bet the turn, allowing him to raise a hidden nut hand.
I have been routinely mucking AQo when a player with reasonable raising standards raises in front of me, and I think I sleep better at night for it. Against players with loose raising standards, I three-bet. The following situation came up today:
It's a full $4/8 game. Generally loose and passive. Most players unknown to me. UTG folds, old guy calls, I'm next and raise with AQo. My raise gets its usual level of respect. The big blind, unknown to me, three-bets. This sounds an alarm, although this guy has been raising a little more than his share. The original limper makes it four bets. This sounds more alarms. It's now on me. There are a total of six other players in, and there's one raise left. I didn't fold, but thought afterward that I should have. This probably would have been the first time in the history of this room that someone had raised in early position and then folded pre-flop, at least at $4/8. :^) Comments?
If it were me I would fold with AQ in this situation. Unless the big blind is an idiot you'd have to think that he has something better than AQ, either a medium to high pair or AK. You haven't seen him play before so that hurts you also. And the "old guy" that called made it 4 bets, even worth. Unless he is just a total nut you'd have to give him credit for something better than AQ in this situation. Plus, maybe this is off base but in my experience "old guys" tend to be rock like as a whole (especially in EP), and usually don't raise with a bad hand here. I would call it for one more bet but when the old guy 4 bet it I think it is pretty clear you are beat. -Tim
*
Hi Andy,
I agree with you, that you are most likely, maybe even most definately behind at this stage. The big blind could have a lot of very strong hands, and the old man probably has at least KK and more likely AA. However, most low limit players, once they put in one bet are going to see the flop, so I think that this will probably go to the flop six handed.
If it is not capped, you are getting 11-1 on your call here, and even if it is capped, your still getting 9-1 on your call. Your probably right to muck, but if you flopped trips, full house, broadway, or top pair-top kicker-flush redraw, you might lose some sleep over that too.
If something good happens, you will probably earn several more bets before the end of the hand, just because the pot now gives them the odds to chase.
On the other hand, those are fairly unlikely events, and a little piece of the flop, and A, a Q, JTx rainbow for instance, might lead you to chase a long way and pay off on the end when you have almost no chance.
After thinking about it, I think you may be right, its might be slightly negative, but I would have a hard time not seeing the flop.
Good luck,
Bob T.
I know I'm getting 11:1 (or likely 9:1) on my call, with possible implied odds, but I think it's much more likely that I'll be in a reverse implied odds situation if I catch a piece of the flop. About the only flop I really want to see is KJT rainbow, and even if you include flops like AQx, AAx, QQx, maybe JT9 and JT8, etc., I'm a bigger dog than 11:1 to get a flop that I'm really comfortable with. I don't like JTx one bit if they're still jamming. The more likely scenario is that I'll hit an Ace or a Queen and pay off all the way. Both of the raisers are highly likely to have hands that I really don't want to play AQo against. Add to that the fact that I'm out of position and AQo really doesn't play well multi-way, and I think I've got a loser.
Pre-flop did not get capped. The flop was something to the effect of T72 rainbow. Checked to the old guy who bet. I was among several callers (dubious I know). The next card was a blank. Checked again to the old guy who bet. I fold, a couple of other folds, and the blind check-raises. The old guy and one or two other players call him down. The blind hand had pocket eights (!), and the old guy had kings to take it down. It turned out that I had three reasonably clean outs, but I still think I had a fold pre-flop. The guy who raised out of the blind was a bit of a maniac, but that was hard to know at the time.
Hi Andy,
Thanks for posting this hand, It made me think about a play that I would probably never have made, and might have to consider now.
After the smoke had cleared, and you saw what they had, I think you were right to play and at least see the flop. If you could see through their cards, you would have played up until the river.
The games that I ususally play in, are at least loose aggressive, and are frequently wilder than that. In those games, sometimes you just have to suck it up, and gamble with the maniacs, and I've won a lot of big pots in situation like the one you found yourself in this hand, where I make top pair and it stands up. Its hard for you to know when you sit down, But I suspect that after you saw the BB play this hand, you would certainly have called in the same situaion later in the day.
Good luck,
Bob T.
Bob,
That's what this forum is for. It gets us to think about things we hadn't thought about before. Not too long ago, I would never have considered folding AQ pre-flop, because it's such a good hand. The more I play, and the more I think about the game, the more I realize that there are no good hands, only good situations. I have begun mucking AQo and even AKo pre-flop when the situation is not favorable. I have not yet folded after raising in a non-steal position pre-flop, but I think that I will probably do so in this situation in the future. If I had raised with AJo (which I would probably have done in $8/16 but not $4/8), I think I would have laid it down the other day.
OK, if I knew what everybody had, I probably would have been in there, but the old guy's likely hands are AA, KK, and AKs, agreed? It's almost impossible that he has anything else, IMO. I'm severely dominated by two of the three, and against KK I need to get an Ace or two Queens. If one Queen comes, I probably pay off the whole way. And I've got several other players to beat. It's a losing situation overall.
If you're playing against a bunch of maniacs, you will make money just playing AA, KK, QQ, and AKs. You may get bored out of your mind waiting for these hands, but the variance you experience playing AQo, 99, and the like will be great. I look for a quieter, better behaved table myself.
Andy,
Now for some irony, yesterday afternoon I get AQ suited on the button, late position open limps, I raise, and he makes it three.
Flop AQQ
He checks, I bet, he raises - ninteen alarms go off in my head and I make crying calls to the river where he shows me AA and I muck.
I suppose I could have listened to the ninteen alarms and mucked early, but I just couldn't do it.
anyway, thanks again for the discussion and good luck,
Bob T.
I am a AC (Taj and Trop) hold'em player. I recently saw an ad for a place in Middlesex called Rounders. Has anyone been there ??? Here is the link: http://www.pokerpages.com/directory/houses/rounde/
Is it legit ? Let me know, as it would save a LOT of driving.
Mike
Having played much in atlantic city, I cannot see why you would drive far to give up the large selection of good games that can be found in atlantic city. by the way, if you play stud, the stud action at the sands is often very good.
I agree the games in AC are good, but it is a 2 hour hour ride for me. This club is within 20 miles. Anyone out there who has been there, let me know.
You know that it is only in AC that poker is legal in NJ. Would you rather drive 2 hrs or take the risk of being in the Star Ledger or Home News. Why not take the bus ride from Cheesequake? There's a 24 hr service from all the casinos. Just a thought.
If it is illgeal, than why do they advertise?
I don't know. But think about it, if it were legal wouldn't they be advertising more, like in the papers? If you know where they advertise, then contact them and good luck.
I played there last year. It's legit. What town do you live in?
I would also like to know where it is. I'm in Elizabeth, N.J. I drive down to A.C. everyweekend. It starting to rack up some miles on my car.
Paradise - $0.50/$1.00 - TsAh 2 off the button.
The player to your immediate right open-limps.
Only one Q: Now what ? Fold, call or raise ?
I don't believe you have given enough information to properly answer your question. I would only say that ATo should very often be playable here. How you should play it, depends.
4-8 at The Orleans (blinds are 1/2).
I'm the small blind and have red K's. There are five limpers when it gets to me. I raise. BB folds and all five limpers call. Flop is Ad 6d Js. I bet and get one caller. Turn is Qc. I bet and opponent calls. River is 7d. I bet and opponent raises. Should I re-raise or fold? Notice that opponent can not have nut flush as I have the Kd.
Thanks,
-Michael
You should check-call, bet-fold or check-fold the river, depending on your opponent.
Lars
Good raise pre-flop, however, with 5 limpers there is a good chance that someone has an ace. On the flop you now have a mediocre holding with the ace on board. Against 5 opponents from the SB position, I would be more inclined to check the flop and be ready to fold if there was any significant action.
Betting the flop is ok, but you should realize most players are not going to fold a better hand than yours, i.e. Ax, or any kind of draw. When you got called by your lone opponent, you need to start thinking about possible hands that they could have to call.
Betting on the turn is ok but only if you know what kind of player your opponent is. Against a loose player, betting is probably right because they probably would raise on the flop with an ace or flush draw, but against typical or tight players I would probably check and fold to a bet.
Betting on the river is bad poker. You have a lone opponent who has been calling you all the way, why bet the river when the flush gets there? If your opponent was on the a flush draw he/she is not going to fold, they are going to RAISE. Once raised on the river, I don't understand how you could contemplate a re-raise. How many non-nut flushes have you thrown away for one more bet?
I'm a new player, so take my response w/ a grain of salt.
I would not re-raise the river as it looks very likely your opponent has the flush. However, I would call the raise against almost all opponents as you are getting about 12:1 to put in that last big bet. Depending on the opponent, he might have something like KQ with the broadway draw on the flop and a pair on the turn. Or JT with 2 jacks on the flop and the gutshot draw on the turn, or other hands as well if he's looser... With any of these hands you can beat he could bluff-raise the river representing the flush. After all, if you fold more than 1 time out of 13 it's a winning play. I would have to be very sure of the made flush before throwing this away rather than taking the 12:1 odds.
Thanks.
Hi FH,
I think you might have counted the pot wrong in this example. Its 1-2 blinds, so the limpers only put in $2 at first.
preflop 6 X $6 = $36, flop 2 X $4 = $8, turn 2 X $8 = $16, the first bet on the river = $8.
So the raiser was putting in $16 to win $68 less rake. If this is a pure bluff, He needs Michael to fold about 2 out of 11 times to break even. After the raise, Michael is puttinng in $8 to win $84 less rake. He needs to win 2 out of 23 to break even.
Good luck,
Bob T.
Right on - thanks Bob.
I think you have to check and call on the flop here. I would bet out like you did if there were only one or two opponents on the flop, but with 5 waiting to act after you the odds are pretty good someone has an ace. If you can get to the turn for only one more bet I think it's worth it. Beyond the turn is debatable, but I think it is okay to check and call through to the river as long as you are just against one opponent. Against multiple opponents I'd check fold on the turn. I'd never raise in this situation from EP unless I got a third king or made my flush. -Tim
Regardless of whether he has the nut flush or not, do you really think he is raising you with LESS than a pair of kings? You are BEAT. No only are you beat, but you probably HAVE BEEN BEAT ALL ALONG. I think you played fine up until the point where you bet the turn. When you raised pre-flop, then bet the flop, and get called, do you really think the person calling you has less than an ace? The only exception to this might be if he has a diamond flush draw! You lost more than you should have on this hand. When the ace overcard came to your pair of kings, give it up, you are beat. Save your money for the next hand.
Dave in Cali
A situation came up the other day with a friend where we disagreed about preflop play. Here's the situation: Say you are in a game where you have 6-8 limpers every hand but there is minimal preflop raising. You have AJo in second position. UTG limps. What do you do?
One of us thought that raising was correct, to limit the field, although it was not clear how well this would work. The fear was that even at this stage, you have to start protecting your hand against the field's draws, since they will almost all assuredly call one bet and probably another on the flop regardless. The other alternative is to fold because there are not enough flops you can hit that can withstand the field's draw against you. This tied into recent discussion we have had about "implicit collusion"; if the field draws against you, they will more often than not beat you.
The other one of us thought you should limp in and let all the others limp in, and then proceed mechanically from the flop on (if you hit it, bet it, if you miss, check and fold it). The thinking here was that this kind of game will obviously have high variance (you will not win many pots but the ones you do win will be substantial), so there is no reason to raise preflop with an above average hand but not a premium hand. As well, the game situation of not a lot of preflop raising is almost ideal, so why "wake everyone up" by raising preflop without less than premium hands (no one will get out of sorts if you raise with AA KK AK or QQ, but AJ, they may start targetting you).
We had a lengthy debate over this hand. I'm curious what the forum thinks.
i dont fold this hand here, it should be profitable.
i like limping
reasons for limping:
1) thinning the field doesnt work so well in games like this. most likely you'll get 1 cold caller, 1 blind, and the limper seeing the flop. i would only raise if i thought i could reasonably act last... look left and see who is already primed to fold
2) just limping lets you ferret out the JJ's, QQ's, AQ's, and AK's. many players will put in the first raise, but not the second with these type of hands.
3) limping allows AXo, JTo, etc. to limp in behind you. these hands may come anyway(cold-call) though.
4) you could get in a check raise with an A high flop because the A will be less conspicuous w/out a pre-flop raise.
I tend to fold with this hand against so many limpers. This may be incorrect, but I feel that when I hit I still end up getting drawn out on too often to make this hand profitable.
I even tend to fold this hand in a late position in a game as you describe. This may be very incorrect, but my records show that it is a loser. I don't have enough results to have a good statistical view of the hand though.
I have noticed that when a table tends to be very loose passive preflop there is a lot of limping with AK and AQ, so you are often caught by surprise when you hit.
This is a scenario I debate myself over quite a bit. I am unsure how to play it as well.
Derrick
I think you should call with it. If you think your raise will knock out everyone behind do it, but in a loose passive game it probably can't. If you don't fear a raise behind you too much, I think it is worth a bet. In HEFAP, I believe Sklansky & Malmuth say in a loose passive game you can play groups 1-5 in early position. AJ is a group 4 hand, if I remember correctly, so by their advice in this kind of game I think you call with it. -Tim
I am not saying a call is incorrect, but I believe this is a trap hand. It may often be the best, but it may often be dominated and cost you a lot of money.
Derrick
>The other one of us thought you should limp in and >let all the others limp in, and then proceed >mechanically from the flop on (if you hit it, bet it, >if you miss, check and fold it).
I agree with just calling preflop. But then with that big a pot you have to check-raise if you hit. And by hit I mean it should be at least top pair with a redraw to broadway or the nut flush. Otherwise you can check-call the flop and check-raise the turn if the turn card isn't problematic.
If you're going to bet right out on the flop with your top pair in early position, you probably have to fold AJo preflop.
I think this hand can be profitable or a trap hand depending on the type of player you are. If you are new, I would fold. If you have been playing longer or have a feel for some of the other players I would play it. I think if your players aren't horrible then your hand reading skills will be paramount here. As for myself, I usually do play it in this situation,though I have been burnt before usually against tricky players. Hope my two cents helps.
I just got invited to a ring game that is 5-10. Overall, at least at the table I was at, there was 1 loose agressive drunk (raising without looking at the cards), 1 loose agressive, non-drunk (not as agressive or as loose), 2 good players, 3 rocks (way too tight), 1 person i couldn't get a read, my friend who is good but sometimes too agressive.
A majority of the games were 2-2-1 (5 stud, 2 down, 2 up, 1 down), Omaha High, and Hold'Em, and Hold'Em variants (Watermelon, Pineapple). I feel strong playing Hold'Em. 2-2-1, I have tightened up considerably only playing two cards higher then 10 and most pairs. Omaha, I play conservative, and the Hold'Em variants I feel I am getting better at.
I need advice on starting hands for Omaha High (or a good book to read) and Watermelon (start with 4 cards, discard one pre=flop and one-post flop)
Also, during the evening, the game goes to a $5-$10-$15 game (5 preflop, 10 postflop, 15 turn and river) I figured that because the game changes to this style of betting, calling pre-flop bets on weaker hands is acceptable for the expected EV on later hands.
Is that right?
You might have better success if you post this in the "Other Games" section.
An example of a play which is indicative of many.
I hold 98s in late possition. Several players (including me) call preflop. Flop comes K98 rainbow. Early possition player bets, all fold to me. I raise and early possition player calls. I put her on a pair of kings. The turn and river are both blanks, but the early possition player continues to bet, and call a raise. It turns out she flopped a set of kings, the nuts the whole time. Perhaps she is much more intellegent that I suspect and was slowplaying, but she didn't reraise me after the river.
Another player at the same table never raised despite flopping a set of aces.
After seeing these hands, my reaction was to become more passive against them. Flat call with more good hands, because raising will not give me more information and could be betting into the nuts. Is this the correct reaction?
kevin
As always, it depends. Will this player play any pair, mid-pair w/o kicker, draws, etc in the same manner?
If he or she only plays monsters this way, you are correct in slowing down under those circumstance...err what am I saying; if she only plays monsters that way, you should probably not slow down, but rather hurry up folding.
lars
where were you playing? that's not california, ill bet. sounds like illinois. i've never played anywhere else. but wow. i guess be glad you lost as little as you did to the nuts.
No, if they check-call all the way with weaker hands as well as strong ones, you continue to bet the likely best hand for value and remain thick-skinned for the times they outplay you this way. If they need big hands to call, slow down if you get any action and bluff and semibluff more on the flop and turn. As a general rule, against tenacious passive players you semibluff fewer weak pairs and draws, take more free cards, and play a few more hands before the flop because the price of drawing out is so cheap and they'll always pay off.
Repeated bet-calling, however, is a different animal. That's a tough hand with the kings, but when a passive player indicates no fear of a raise on the turn, you should worry. Bottom two isn't worth a raise. The raise on the river was a mistake, but against a stubborn aggressive nitwit you played it perfectly.
I think your ep player is one of those rare breed. They are so scared of making waves in their lives that they play poker the same way. It isn't stupid playing, it's timid playing.
Dr. Schoonmaker talks about them in his book. They can be very hard to play against, because of their personalities.
Mike
I play against one of these morons regularly. It can be extremely frustrating, but it has it's advantages too. We play a lot of Omaha Hi-Lo 8 or Better. This particular idiot will flop the nut full house and literally make crying, whining calls to the river, all the while two of us with the nut low are fighting it out, capping the turn and river. I've bet the King high flush into his Ace high flush quite a few times, never getting raised back. I commented once "WTF? You don't raise with the nut hand?" "Nope." "Well then, lucky me, I guess." They never charge you enough for your draws or second best hands, and when they do come out firing, it's easy to get out of the way. Just be leery whenever you're in a pot with them. You'll have their money in the long run.
I am very confused about how to play pkt. 9's, 10's, or J's in a 9-player 3-6 game. Since seemingly more than 75% of the time an overcard is bound to show up on the flop.
Scenerio #1: If indeed the flop comes Q83, or K76, etc., is it customary to fold on the flop if someone bets? If so, then all I'm really hoping for from these types of hands is to flop a set then, correct? So why is JJ considered far superior to middle/low pkt. pairs? Enough so that most "experts" recommend a pre-flop raise with JJ. I just don't understand the logic. Why raise with JJ if 75% of the time an overcard will fall, putting you in a tough situation?
Scenerio #2: Suppose now that the flop comes 972rainbow and I'm holding pkt. 10's. I obviously want to bet/raise when the action gets to me, no matter what position, correct? If then on the turn (or river) an overcard unfortunately lands, J-A, do I check/fold or check/call to the end?
Scenerio #3: The flop comes 447rainbow in a pretty loose low limit game. Again it's my duty to bet the flop, but what if I am reraised? This situation has come up time and time again and I am still confused as to what to do holding my 9's or 10's.Do I just assume everytime that the player is holding A4 and fold? Or should I reraise to see what reaction I get then? What can I expect my typical low limit opponents to hold if presented with a raise on this flop? 2 pair with the 7's or 3 of a kind with the 4's? I know most of your responses will be "it depends" and that know ing your opponent is key, but what if your opponent just sat down, or you've never played with him/her before?
I am also a pretty new player, and I asked basically the same question a couple weeks ago on this board. Based on that and my own experience, here are my suggestions.
(1) If you hold JJ and the flop comes A, K or Q high, you will check and fold if there is a bet and several callers or a raise before it gets back to you. This is why you must generally raise preflop -- it could knock out hands like KT or A9s that might stay for one bet. And with JJ, overcards only fall 48% of the time when someone in the field holds one A, K, and Q (9 outs for the field, (38*37*36)/(47*46*45) = .52 for no overcards to fall). You must bet/raise the strongest hand for value when you hold it, and JJ is very very often just that preflop. If you let people draw cheaply when you have the best hand, you are making a big mistake.
(2) Here, you need to know the opposition. If you raised preflop and on the flop, would your opponent(s) have twice called a raise or 2 cold bets with just overcards? If they are good players, probably not unless they had other outs (with this board that seems unlikely). If they are bad, loose players, who knows? Assume you have the best hand with that flop until someone shows you otherwise, I think.
(3) This is exactly why you may want to open-raise preflop with TT in mid/late position. Get the A4 out of there. Don't let the BB see a free flop with garbage and beat you on something like this. You'd like to have some idea what your opponents are holding when <447> flops, and you have a better idea of that if they called a raise preflop. Or, if there are a lot of pre-flop limpers into you, call, getting odds for your 7.5:1 set draw. If you don't flop a set and the board scares you, just fold and play the next hand.
Please add comments/criticisms.
Good luck,
Lance
1. Most of the time, if an overcard flops, you should fold to a bet. Now with JJ, it's somewhat different. Say an overcard flops 75% of the time, and you have to fold (I am not sure what the EXACT percentage is, it really doesn't matter for this example). That means that 25% of the time, you will flop an overpair. Add to this the 7.5% of the time you will flop a set, and this means you will flop a strong hand 33.5% of the time. This still means that 66.5% of the time you will have to fold, but against a multi-way field, you are the MONEY favorite before the flop, even if you are not the favorite to win the pot. It's doubtful anyone else has as good as a 33.5% chance of flopping a strong hand, in fact, most of them probably have a much smaller chance of flopping a strong hand. Because of this, you want to usually raise with JJ.
2. Of course when you flop an overpair, you should raise. Anyone with just overcards, especially if they only have one overcard, is now a dog to your overpair. Now if there are six players, and someone bets with a nine, and you raise with your tens, and between the other four they have an ace, king, queen, and jack, you may very well get beat if an overcard falls. However, each of them individually is making a mistake if they call your raise. While you may still be a dog to the field, because of the priniciple of implicit collusion, you still have to raise anyway and give each of them the opportunity to make a mistake against you. Also, if one or more of them correctly folds, this also benefits you, as you will now win the pot more often.
3. Many times you will be beaten if raised. Keep this in mind. Better to fold early and save a bunch of bets than to go to the river, only to find out that you were beaten the whole way, a fact that should have been obvious on the flop.
Agree with Dave as usual, and would like to point out what Dave hinted on about, that Jacks and Nines can't really be compared. The difference is huge. Jacks is a monster which should be a raising hand in any position, vs any number of opponents. Not into the cold-calling business pre-flop, I will also re-raise Jacks very very often when it's raised to me.
Keep in mind that if your raise with Jacks gets lots of callers, this should indicate that Queens, Kings and Aces aren't particularly live. Most players will re-raise Queens and virtually everybody will re-raise Kings and Aces so by raising Jacks, you are also getting usually accurate and crucial imformation.
I wouldn't always give up if an overcard flops either (although I'd also like to stress the major difference in WHAT overcard which falls, the Ace killing you off far more often than either the King or the Queen). Also a flop like Q-10-9, while representing an overcard to your pair, is very playable as you could easily be ahead or have either 8-10 outs for the whole pot if behind. Even K-10-9 is playable, where your two outs for a set is more likely to stand up on it's own.
Lars
"Jacks is a monster which should be a raising hand in any position, vs any number of opponents."
.....ummm, I have to disagree. Unless the table is so loose that EVERYONE is calling with less than Jx, you might be better off calling (rather than always raising) in later position after a number of people are in.
The times when I will not raise with jacks is when I expect my raise to limit my opponents to exactly three. With less than three opponents, or more than four, I would always raise no matter what. Jacks don't play as well against exactly three opponents.
n/t
Against exactly three, you are likely going to have to fold if any overcard comes, but you aren't getting enough odds to try and flop a set. Against two or one, you may be able to call to the end, even if an overcard comes (though usually not if it's an ace). Against more than four, you are usually getting odds to flop a set, which greatly increases the value of jacks.
nt
What if you're in an early position with JJ and an overcard comes on the flop? Should you check or bet into several opponents? Does your play preflop (limp, raise) affect your flop play?
"Even K-10-9 is playable, where your two outs for a set is more likely to stand up on it's own."
The "two outs for a set" aren't outs at all. On a KT9 flop your only out is the Q for the straight. The two J's left give anyone with a Q the straight. If the J comes and there is action what do you do with your set then?
I would definetly raise if I knew I could limit the feild-if not I just limp. On the flop I usually come out betting with all of the above especially JJ,if drops feild even further then I will usually bet turn and try to showdown if board is scary. Frequently if I am raised on flop I will drop or if I don't know where I stand I will fold, more so with 99-TT. I do think betting out is important especially with 99-TT against decent opponents because they or more prone to fold if they have nothing but against weak players checking and folding may be better. Does anyone have any comments about the above post, because I am still learning and could use feedback also. Hope I added to the discussion.
I've got Jd Td in the BB. 5 limpers, SB calls, 7 of us see the flop.
Flop is 7h 8d 9d.
The SB bets out. I decide I am too big to make the 5 players behind me cold call two bets, so I just call. All the limpers fold except for the button who raises, the SB calls, now, with only two opponents, I decide to put in a raise, both call me.
The turn pairs the 8. The SB bets, I put him on trip 8's and raise, the button folds, SB 3 bets, now I'm scared he's full so I just call (and pray for the Q or 7 of diamonds).
No such luck, river is blank, he bets I call.
I have never played with the SB before. What do you think of my play?
You played fine. However, I wouldn't necessarily conclude the SB has a full house. If he had two pair on the flop, he might very well have three-bet the flop himself, in which case I sure hope you were going to cap it. However, regardless of any doubts in your mind, I still think you played fine. I like your flop play given the action, but had you raised right away, it would have still been just fine. Flopped straights can be a nightmare, especially with a flush draw on board. The fact that you had two of the diamonds was in your favor, but you still didn't want to see another diamond, for fear of a bigger flush. Plus - if anyone DID have a bigger flush draw (or an open-ender), they would have likely called two cold on the flop anyway.
Once I call re-raised on the flop, I would keep raising until my stack is gone if they want to.
I figured that on the turn, once I raised him and he 3-bet me (having seen me call re-raise on the flop), there is a good chance he is full.
My main question on the hand is whether I should have raised right away on the flop. I already have the nuts so of course I don't want a diamond to come, but if it does it's not the end of the world. I wanted to give overcards and low pairs a chance to call on the flop so I could get more money while they are drawing slim.
Since many of them would call with such weak hands anyway, and there are plenty of cards you don't want to see, I would see no problems with raising right away on the flop. Flopped straights are always vulnerable, many times you wind up splitting the pot, which costs you, and sometimes you wind up losing altogether, so had you raised right away, it would be fine. I usually raise right away when I flop a straight.
I think you are correct in this thinking. Usually, a good place to trap is if there is a bet to your immediate right. This was true on the flop, you called hoping for a raise which you got. You backed off on the turn, which makes sense with the coordinated board.
JTs is a hand that plays well multi-way, and you've got six other people in there. I'd seriously consider raising out of the big blind. This adds deception to your play so people won't necessarily assume that you have AA or KK when you raise out of the blinds. Also, the larger pot may tie people on if you happen to get a flop you like.
Raise immediately on the flop. You do have the current nuts, but your hand is vulnerable. You don't necessarily want to knock people out, but you don't want them drawing cheaply on you either. There are many hands that your opponents might call two bets as easily as one with. Also, your raise in this spot may well tie people on. I don't think that people are going to put you on the straight just because you raise.
Once the small blind three-bets the turn, I think you can slow down. I hope he was on the idiot end. :^)
Your call on the flop is fine. On the turn you need to just call. Hands that are ahead of you will not fold to your raise, and you will be forced to call with all sorts of outs.
In this case, once the baord pairs, you need to be calling, not raising.
Think about it, I guess a raise traps a guy who cant lay down 888, but that is it. If someone else has a straight they will call, any full will raise. You should raise here if you have a straight with NO redraws, then you can fold if reraised, or try to check it doen on the river.
Paradise, 2/4. I'm in the cutoff with 3's. Two limpers to me, I call (yes I know I should have more callers, but hell, I was bored! hehe). Button folds, SB folds, BB checks. Flop 3c Ks Kh. Decent flop :) BB checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, I call (should I have raised?) BB folds. Turn Qd. MP1 bets, MP2 calls, at this point I decide to pull the trigger and raised. MP1 folds, MP2 reraises! Hmm... I cap, MP2 calls. River 9c and MP2 bets into me immediately. I'm scared into thinking he's got an overfull and I just call. MP2 turns over AKd and I take it down. Should I have popped it on the river as well?
I think you played it well. If he has a K, he is drawing to fill up and he has 4 outs(K,3kicker cards.)I estimate there to be 7 bets in on flop in which case he isn't getting proper odds to draw on you,needs at least 10-1. By not raising you are making him play incorrectly. I would have capped turn also. You are the favorite and your raise cuts down his odds to draw on you. I think on the river I would have raised but if he reraised,I would have to give him credit for KQ and just call. I am not an expert, but it seems you just missed a bet on the river otherwise I would have played it the same way.
I tend to raise those hands on the flop, because the typical PP player holding a king will respond by calling the flop and then checkraising me on the turn, whereupon I can make it three bets.
You played it fine, though.
Chris.
Playing over the weekend at Lake Tahoe. I was cleaning this table up all night, a bunch of loose-passives, highly predictable players at the table.
To my right is an aggressive player who seems to know what he's doing (we'll call him AGGRESSIVE), but his aggression is costing him money (raising bottom pair on the turn, etc...). The player to my left has been quiet, not played many hands, has been at the table less than an hour, but has a confident air about him (we'll call him TIGHT).
So, I'm on a roll, all the deck is hitting me hard, I'm charging people the maximum and I'm winning big when I get dealt JJ in middle position.
All fold to AGGRESSIVE who raises, I re-raise, TIGHT cold calls, as do everyone around the button, button included.
7 handed and the flop comes:
2 6 9 rainbow
Blinds check, AGGRESSIVE raises, I re-raise, and TIGHT, re-raises me. Button cold calls 3, all others fold, aggressive and I both call.
Turn comes 3.
AGGRESSIVE bets, I raise, TIGHT re-raises again, button folds. AGGRESSIVE thinks for about 20 seconds, and painfully throws away his hand. I call.
Heads up with TIGHT on the river and it comes:
8
board is:
2 6 9 3 8 (no flush)
I check, TIGHT bets, I call. He shows 99, I muck.
Ok, I'll be honest here, I was a complete idiot, and the possibility of set didn't even occur to me (I hate even admitting that, but its the truth).
The question is, should I have folded to the extra bet on the turn? The pot was HUGE and I would say I was getting odds to draw to my two outs. My raising did get AGGRESSIVE to lay down what he told me truthfully was AA, so did I play this correctly, to try and take the HUGE pot by making a higher pocket pair fold, or should I have folded on the turn, or even the flop?
I am interested in seeing just how badly I may have overplayed this hand, and how some of you would have played it differently.
Very loose 4-8 game with a half kill to 6-12 at Harrah's in Chicago. I am about even, but loving the game. There is only one other decent player in the game, he is immediately on my right, and is slightly on tilt. All other players are very straight forward with their play (calling stations who bet only when they have better than top pair), except for one very loose aggressive player two to my right.
Preflop: I am 2 UTG. Solid (but now on) tilt player (STP) on my right raises to 12. I look down and see two black kings. I raise to 18 expecting to get it down to myself, him and the BB (the loose aggressive player). STP doesn’t look happy with the raise. (I don’t think this is an act since he has repeatedly shown me a great deal of respect.) Then I am called by 2 MP players, the button, and the small blind. The BB then caps it, all call. 7 ways to the flop, 28sb’s in the pot.
Flop: 10 – 2 – 2 rainbow. Obviously with a huge pot I am ecstatic about this flop. With all the players behind me calling 3 cold, I discard the possibility of a 2 being out against me (mistake?). Checked to BB who bets. I have seen him cap then bet out twice before tonight, and have yet to see him make it to the river. STP calls, I raise, all call. 7 to the turn, 21 BBs in the pot.
Turn: 10 – 2 – 2 – (7). The 7 suits one of the 2’s, now a flush draw on the board. I am still loving life, though I am wondering how even these loose players called 2 cold with such a poorly coordinated flop. Checked to me, I say “I’m not stopping now” and bet. All call to STP who check-raises me. I pause and look at him. He is almost all in. Planning on a side pot at worst, and to charge the flush draws the max, I re-raise him. I have a feeling he has 10’s because of his preflop reaction to me. With AA he wouldn’t have had that “here we go again” look, and he would probably check-call JJ, QQ or KK here. We finally lose one, then he caps all in. 6 to the river, 46 BB’s in the pot.
Before the river STP screams “No paint!” and this confirms (in my mind) his holding of 10-10.
River 10 – 2 – 2 – 7 – (K). STP stands up and starts walking around, I bet and 3 call. I take down a monstrous pot (50 BB’s) with kings full. STP had 10-10, BB had A-A to my amazement, and we were also shown J-J and A-10.
Should I have just called on the turn? Where else did I possibly make a mistake?
Thanks,
Clark
I would be hard pressed to lay down my kings in your position and I think you can discard the possibility of a 2 out there on the flop. Anyway, with all the preflop dead money in the pot I think you come at least close to a pot odds call for the river (and you hit anyway). Flopping top set is a killer when drawn out on.
I hope you did see the possibility of being up against AA's, but he had them in the BB which in my opinion is the worst place to have em, I once had back to back AA's in the BB and SB and you guessed it they got cracked back to back.
Nice hand,
Joe
If this hand had played on PP, you know what they would say about it!
Nice hand. Can't say I would have played it any differently.
Papio
"With all the players behind me calling 3 cold, I discard the possibility of a 2 being out against me (mistake?)."
YES. You already said it was loose. Don't assume anything.
I would have just called the raise on the turn. However, the pot was so incredibly large, you had odds to draw to your two outer, but still, you should have gone with your read of the situation and just called it down. I think you made a 2 BB mistake on this hand. Not the end of the world, but still, that's going to be several hours work, especially considering this was a kill pot.
Awesome pot though. Did you stand up and do hip thrusting motions when the king fell on the river?
Dave in Cali
Actually, the guy with the 10's became so upset, the dealer called security to get him to calm down. I remained rather stoic for a hand or two, then left the room for a victory lap around the boat, with a whole lot of fist pumping. =)
I agree btw, I think that it is minimal risk that anyone had a 2, but to totally discount it was foolish. Especially with so many callers on a totally uncoordinated board. Once I put the one guy on pocket 10's, my main concern was building and winning a side pot. Obviously a mistake since I was in 3rd place.
To paraphrase the statistic I have read:
If you see a pair on the flop, and you don't have one of the pair, there's about a 40% chance that no one has trips (or quads) in that rank.
Granted, these were deuces, but if the table is loose, A2s cold-calls my raise with KK often enough to give me gas. (When they draw out on me).
This would have been an ideal time to look about and see if someone was visibly upset about folding a 2.
I have Jd-Kh in middle position in a loose-aggressive 3-6 HE game. Four see the flop, I am in second to last position.
Flop is Ad-Jh-Xh. Player in first position bets (is a decent but somewhat wild player, is a dealer at the card club), second position player calls, I call, late/last position player folds. Turn is another Xh. First position player checks, second position player bets, I call, first position player check-raises, second position player and I both call.
First position player bets in the dark before the river card is flipped. River is Ah (board of Ad-Jh-Xh-Xh-Ah. Second position player folds.
I have the nut flush, but would a raise here be correct? I think for a while, and decide to only call for two reasons.
Reason #1... If he already had a medium to high flush on the turn, I think he would have laid down his flush that wasn't the nuts if I had raised the river. I say this because (A) he had seen me play for awhile at the table and knew I wasn't a wild player that would attempt a bluff here and (B) I am pretty confident he would know that he is beaten if I raise and he would have the discipline to fold. If this is the case, I don't collect an extra bet by raising.
Reason #2... If he had check-raised the turn with trips or aces-up (most likely trips, if either), I would be three bet for sure with a full house, and I would have made a crying call. If this is the case, I lose two more big bets by raising.
The player ended up having 4h-5h, and made a few remarks that I didn't appreciate for not raising with my nut flush. I will say no more on that topic...
Any comments on my play are appreciated.
Hi JS,
Have to meet you at the park sometime, so we can put faces with our names.
Here's what I'm thinking:
On the flop, if there was no raise preflop, there are only 6 small bets in the pot when it gets to you with one player yet to act. With a two flush on board, he might raise for a free card and it could easily come back to you for three bets. I think with middle pair, I would usally not overcall for such a small pot. You don't have great odds on your draw, and your potentially in a reverse implied odds situation if you make it.
On the turn, you got trapped, your kind of stuck with the second nut flush draw, but you might feel awfully silly, when you make it and you get shown the A of hearts in someone else's hand. I think its kind of interesting how first position( was he the Big Blind?) played his draw. I think I would remember this betting pattern from him and be wary when it come up again.
On the river, I think the bet in the dark has to be a flush and you should raise. If he had made a set, do you think he would bet in the dark with a three flush on the board and a 1 out of 5 chance that another flush card was about to hit. I would have expected a much higher flush than this, because I suppose the same logic could have been applied to a 5 high flush.
I think you will get paid off by a smaller flush if you raise on the river. Do you really know that many dealers (especially those that play 3-6) at canterbury that will lay down hands on the river, other than when they get caught in a bluff.
Because I'm fairly confidant that the better has a flush, I think your at least 2-1 to win this and should raise. There is also the possibility that if he has a full house, it is a small one ( there was no raise preflop?) and he might not reraise.
Hmmmm..... a lot of speculation on my part here, I'll look forward to others comments and see if I'm way off base.
good luck,
Bob t.
First, he's much more likely to check raise and bet in the dark with a flush than trips with a flush on board. And two pair is pretty much out of the question.
Second, you are probably giving the player too much credit if you think he'll lay down a flush on the river at 3-6.
I don't think you played badly at all. Let the moron whine about your not raising. Suck the extra bets out of him, and then ask him if he wants some cheese with that whine.
Dave in Cali
On a very loose fishy table with calling stations and only one tight good player.
I have QQ in the SB. 5 callers to me (tight player is out), I raise, BB and all limpers call. 14SB in pot.
Flop A-J-10 rainbow
I bet, all fold to mid position who raises, all fold to late position who reraises, all fold to me. I call, mid position calls. 23SB in pot.
Turn 5
I check, mid position checks, late position bets. 12.5BB in pot.
My action? Results in next post...
I decided to fold, despite certainly having odds to draw to my 4 outer. However, I felt that there was two issues to consider; 1) late position very likely has KQ already so I'm drawing to half the pot, and further 2) this means I have only 3 outs rather than 4.
Mid position called, and when another blank hit the river, he folded, saying he had a dry king. Late position didn't show.
I detest folding in big pots when I have nut outs, but I didn't think I had the odds here, especially a very big lack of implied odds.
your nut outs were likely to splits, despite the results of the hand, therefore you still had to fold anyway, because your pot odds weren't as good as they seemed
I think you gotta lay this hand down. You have outs to draw to the four outer, but you are probably drawing to a split pot which cuts your odds in half. Even though the pot is big I think you have to lay this one down.
SS
Your first mistake was betting into 6 opponents with an under pair. I would check fold on the flop... there is 14 SB in the pot and you have 4 outs to possibly split the pot. Your Q is no longer an out since it will make a 4 card straight.
Your second mistake was calling 2 bets on the flop after you had bet. You are getting 21:2 on your call which isn't enough for 4 outs... and your outs are to split the pot.
On the turn, after making the above mistakes I would fold again. You are getting 12.5:1 and you need about 22:1 IMO.
Just My Opinions,
Derrick
On the flop I always bet in this situation, in this case, for a couple of reasons. First, no matter how many people call me, with an immediate 14-1 on my flop bet, its not a bad bet. Second, I want to start folding people out who may end up beating me. Third, I want to find out where I stand in the hand. If everyone just calls, I may be inclined to figure I may have the best hand anyways! However, I ALWAYS bet this flop after raising preflop. Simply always; I suppose its something of a matter of style. I like to be in control of hands rather than calling. I'd be interested to hear others comments about this bet.
After it gets raised and reraised back to me, I have to consider. I need to call 2 more SB into a pot that is at present 20SB (with 1 more certain to come from the other player). It's marginal I admit. However, at this stage I have not only the straight out but the runner runner full house outs (I know, not that great but still). I'd agree this call is close and perhaps not good.
Always betting after having raised pre-flop is wasting bets. I think your best play here would have been to check and fold. It's a waste of bets, especially with six players, many of whom called a pre-flop raise cold, and likely have an ace.
Fold. you have four outs at best, because you certainly can't count on a queen as being an out. I am not even sure I would have called the two more bets on the flop.
I have pocket 7's in the cutoff. Two hands ago I had pocket 6's, flopped a set, and lost. 4 callers to me. I call. Button folds. SB calls, BB checks. Flop comes 2c 7c 9c. SB bets. 3 callers to me - I raise. Only the SB calls. Turn is 6s. SB bets and I call. River is 6d. SB bets and I call. I win when SB turns over Ac, 5c. After the hand I was told by lady on my right that I should have raised on the end. I disagreed stating that SB may have pocket 9's. I think he could have played it the same way. Did I miss a bet or was my call on the end correct?
Thanks,
-Michael
When the board paired on the river you should have raised him
I think you are playing a bit scared. There are precisely two hands that beat you (66 and 99, with 66 being unlikely in the extreme). I hardly think it would be too risky to throw in one raise on the river, especially given that the board is paired, straighted, and flushed, leaving your opponent many many many hands that he will bet the river with that are NOT 99 and that he WILL call a raise with.
If you get reraised, then I might consider just a call.
I would consider the fact that maybe he has one of the two hands that beat me, then I would raise and reraise at least once. I'm guessing it would be easy to put him on a flush as opposed to a bigger boat, but with the beating you just took, I can understand a bit of hesitation. Suck it up and raise next time.
That you lost with a set a couple of hands ago is unfortunate but not relevant to this hand. You have the third nuts. It's essentially impossible that your opponent has four sixes. Your opponent might have played pocket nines the same as he played his nut flush (personally, I would have re-raised the flop with either hand), but he would also have played pocket 2's and maybe two pair the same way. Statistically, it is much, much more likely that he has a flush than precisely 99. You have to raise at least one more time.
You did indeed miss at least one raise on the river. "Don't be afraid of monster under the bed".
Assume he has pocket nines when he reraises you again, then make the crying call anyway. You should have raised the river.
You definitely missed a bet. It seems like the most likely hand he had was a flush. When he bet into you on the turn.
Derrick
If I were the SB, I would have re-raised you with my nut flush. What would you have done then if I bet out on the turn of the 6?
I agree with you. That's what I would have done if I was in his situation. I my situation if he'd done that, I would have called the turn with 10 outs.
-Michael
Matt K. posted this question in the 99-JJ discussion below, but it looks like it's not getting an answer. I was curious about this too, so I'm paraphrasing and re-posting it.
You have JJ in early position, open-raise, and get 4 callers including the SB and the BB. Flop comes with a K or Q overcard, check to you, do you bet or check? Do you ALWAYS check if the overcard is an A? If you were first to act with 4 callers to your left (SB and BB folded preflop), does that change anything?
Now lets say you have JJ, open-raise, and get 2 callers including the BB. Same K or Q flop, BB checks, do you bet or check?
Thanks, Lance
With that many callers, I would simply check-fold against most all of them and most all lineups. With only two opponents, I might consider going to the river, but keep in mind that if you don't believe they have you beat now, you have to call to the river, otherwise, fold now.
It depends on the people I'm playing against. If there are calling stations after me, I would check the flop. But if they are decent or semi-decent player, I will bet out trying to represent that I can beat any hand that pairs the top card on the board. IMHO. Comments please.
I agree with 1 or 2 opponents in the hand, this is a good tactic. However, with 4 or more opponents, somebody probably has a better hand.
n/t
3/6 holdem, 10 players.
Preflop: UTG raises. MP1, MP2, and BB call.
Flop: A45r
UTG bets. Only MP1 and BB call.
Turn: A
UTG bets. Only MP1 calls.
River: 7
UTG checks. MP1 bets. UTG calls.
What do you think of UTG's play so far? Results in a few hours.
I think UTG was beat the whole way and wasted 2.5 BB, especially given the cold call BTF by MP.
It looks like UTG is up against 3 aces. Should have folded the turn when his flop bet was called.
MP1 turns over JJ and UTG took down a nice pot.
Fold the turn or bet the river.
If you're going to call his river bet anyway why not collect the extra bet when he is stuck with his QQ or TT. If you're raised it's an easy fold since he'll be fearing AK or AQ from you.
Sincerly, Andreas
Seems pretty straight forward to me. The 2nd Ace on the turn is a GOOD card for the KK, not a bad card.
- Louie
Interesting - similar thing happened to me tonight at Canterbury.
I have KK - (not really under the gun - early/mid position) - and I raise and get reraised, and so I raise one more time. and that guy calls at 4 bets..(note he didn't cap it) - now I'm acting first cause the blinds folded...it's eventually me and the guy on my left.
Basically two misses on the flop - 8 and a 3 rainbow, and then an A. I check and let the guy bet each time and I call... turn and river come up low enough to where I guess he doesn't have trips and isn't drawing to a straight or flush.
Here's where I hesitated...does he have an A? I don't put him on Trip A's, cause he would have reraised me and capped it pre-flop, and most guys wouldn't probably reraise AK or AQ - (I hope...I usually quit after one raise with those cards.) but the problem is he can't check-raise me, cause I'm acting first and deferring to him. -
turns out he too had JJ...made me some good money, but I got lucky, cause a couple of players at the table were so loose that if they had gotten A2o before the flop, I'm sure they would have called all the way.
Just wanted to discuss a hand I observed at an online $2/4 table I was playing at today.
Four people, including both blinds take the flop after button raised.
Flop goes: 9-9-2, rainbow. Checked to button who bets, both blinds call, mid-position limper drops.
Turn: J, suit not important but still rainbow I think. Checked to button who bets, just small blind calls this time.
River: 2, no three-flush. Small blind checks to button, who bets. Small blind calls.
Button shows AQ, for A-9-9-2-2.
Comments?
lars
I might as well hadn't told, the small blind of course showed a baby pocket pair (fours, as it happens), to take home to pot.
I find the river bet to this board with that river card extremely poor when sitting in button position. You gain absolutely NOTHING by betting here. NO value. All you do, is lose an extra big bet whenever you run into a baby pair (which was quite obvious here really) and even an extra $.5 (an Eight of a big bet) in rake when you split with another Ace.
I find this pretty interesting, as I think many, probably me included, are doing thing similar to this, thinking the usual 'unscary board, I'll keep betting until somebody suggests I shouldn't' and on the river 'I'm going to the showdown here no matter what, so I might as well do the betting myself', forgetting that in button position, they can check this one down when there is no value left, as there so obviously isn't here.
lars
If the river bet would sometimes make someone else with an ace fold then it might be worth it. But in my experience, with that kind of board, if someone has an ace and called to the river, they will almost always call again on the river. Thus I agree with you that the bet only has negative value since if called you will either split the pot or lose to a better hand, and only hands worse than ace high would fold and you have these beat anyway. Plus, if raised you will usually fold and if that raise comes from a hand that you would beat, you have lost a lot.
I don't think it's that terrible. Weak players will call with almost anything here to try to atleast split the pot. Any pocket pair is likely to call since they beat the two pair on the board. If he held a 9 there would have been more action on the flop or on the turn. If he holds a 2, well, tough, you lose. If he's weak he'll probably not raise with a 2 fearing AA or a 9. If he's strong he'll probably raise since most preflop raising hands doesn't contain a 9. But if he's strong he probably would have folded any hand containing a 2 preflop, and would almost certainly fold it on the turn.
If it was shorthanded I would probably bet the river here most of the time.
My guess is that he held a small/medium pocket pair, 44-88.
Sincerly, Andreas
After rereading the post I agree 100% somehow the turn card changed into an A in my mind. Funny. With an A i think it's a clear value bet. Without it it's a clear check.
Sincerly, Andreas
This is by far one of the strangest hands I've been in, where I thought I was way behind on the turn, then I ended up raking the pot:
I get dealt black kings on the button. Five limpers to me, I raise, SB drops, BB calls, limpers all call. I'm praying for a set because with this many hands I'm probably toast otherwise. Flop comes 7c Js 9h. Eh, not too horrible a flop for me, but not exactly ragged either. Action gets checked to the cutoff who bets, I of course raise, BB calls, MP calls, cutoff (CO) 3-bets. Great. I call, everyone calls. Turn 9c. Checked around to CO who of course bets. I call (bad move?) praying he has a J7o or AJ or something. BB and MP also call. River is Jd. Now I'm toast. Gets checked to CO who checks!! (wtf!?!?) I check, the reason being I would only get called by someone with a J or 9, correct? BB shows a busted flush, MP folds, CO shows QTo for a flopped open ender. I take down a rather large pot. Would you have done anything differently? Bet the river? Flame on.
Another option is to try what HFAP suggests - just call on flop and then wait till turn to raise to make others facing 2 bets.
MAYBE pocket Tens or Queens may call. Otherwise, you are bluffing. This MAY be advised when the possible straight is sandwiched between you and other possible callers (say if the raiser was in the Blind on CO). Apart from mathematical considerations, a strong "tell" that you should not bet is your inhaled underpants. Not only does this reduce your chances (the so called "seat-of-your-pants" intuition), it also tends to cause you to project your bet as a bluff: trust me, they'll know you don't like your hand.
On the turn I count 14 bets. If your hand is worth a call, and certainly it is, then it is also almost always worth a raise to protect this big pot. Your raise will surely cause someone who is drawing to beat you to fold. With the bet on your right you should raise, even though its wrong most of the time.
You should already have noticed that CO tends to play his draws strongly. If not, make a mental note of it now.
- Louie
Nothing to add to the discussion, really, just thought this was the most amusing title to a post I have ever read.
Just got back from a week in Vegas. I did very well and have some observations for those of you headed out there soon.
Binions-TOUGH HE games. You've got to tighten way up when you sit down here, but you just can't beat the service and atmosphere. You do get the occasional fish who "just wants to play", and can take his/her money. I did get to play with Rita from "Taxi-Cab Confessions". She's a very nice lady. There is no bad beat jackpot at Binion's.
Mandalay Bay-What a BEAUTIFUL poker room! During the week, you play against rocks. But on friday and saturday night, the fish-come-a-swimming. They have progressive bad beat hands, instead of jackpots. I hit a diamond royal flush, won the pot and won a jackpot of $617.
Excalibur-What a goofy wheel. They have a bad beat jackpot, but it doesn't go up much each day because if you get your fullhouse beat, you spin the wheel. $'s on the wheel range from 10-100. The average win in $27. 2-6 HE is kinda strange, you can bet ANYWHERE from 2-6, at anytime. Lotsa fish though, especially after 4pm. They play loose/passive all the way. Easy pickings.
Good luck to ya!
Mandalay bay is about the most beautiful poker room I have ever seen anywhere.
Excalibur's wheel is great. I like getting paid when I lose with AA, KK, or a boat in stud, and the money comes out of the jackpot drop, so that money is getting returned to the players in a much more equitable fashion than a standard jackpot (which I don't care for). The spread limit structure at Excalibur allows for more flexibility, and favors good players, especially if they are willing to bet the max when appropriate. I find I can steal lots of small pots by simply betting 6$. Overall, I really like excalibur's poker room. I like the wheel, the free food, and the staff, plus the structure of the game favors me, and there are usually easy games every day, but only at night (avoid excalibur during the day, ROCKS).
All the games in vegas tend to be great at night, and full of rocks during the day. Weekend late nights are the best.
As someone who lives and plays LL regularly in Vegas, here are my thoughts. These are my opinions and I don’t expect everyone to agree:
Best place to play: Mirage or Bellagio. Comps other than line passes are hard to come by, but it is non-smoking (important to me, the local joins are very smoky), and the rooms are comfortable. $3 rake at about 8% (it isn’t a %, its at certain pot levels) with no jackpots. Full blinds. My favorite game in town is the weekend evening Mirage $6-12 game. Unfortunately the Mirage dealers aren’t very good, with a few notable exceptions. Bellagio dealers are better.
Other venues:
Mandalay Bay: Gorgeous room with suspect lighting. The tables are HUGE. High $4 rake with a $1 jackpot drop for high hands (4 of a kind or better). One of the best dealers in town is here, but the rest are average. Very friendly staff. I play here when there are big weekend events at Mandalay. Usually a 4-8 game with a half kill, but on busy weekends they will spread 6-12 half kill and (rarely)10-20 half kill. 1-2 blind structure. Can be either very rocky or very good. When rocky it is incredibly easy to steal because the blind structure keeps the pots too small for the rocks to screw with.
Orleans: Local joint is very very smoky. Their games also go from 4-8 to 10-20 and higher with a half kill. Also has a half size blind structure. Rake is $3 to 5% and a $1 bad beat jackpot (as I recall, I haven’t played there in a while). I the games are pretty good in the evening. The 6-12 lineup is much better than the 4-8.
Monte Carlo: Small but ornate room spreads 4-8. Decent dealers with full blinds. Rake is high at $4 to 10% with an extra $1 high hand drop. I rarely play here because of the location and the rake. I remember the game being fair.
Flamingo: Usually its 1-5 stud at 5 tables and one holdem table for 4-8. I rarely play here because of no game selection.
Binion’s: I personally think that Binion’s 4-8 tends on average to be the toughest 4-8 in town that is on the strip or downtown. It can get REAL juicy on weekends with tourneys or redneck events in town, however (Rodeo, NASCAR). The 4-8 omaha high game is always good however. 5% $3 rake with above average dealers. No jackpot and full blinds. You get cancer from the smoke the moment you walk in the door.
Las Vegas Club: Great weekend games. $3 rake with a $1 high hand drop. Half blinds with OK dealers. Usually only one game going, but it can be REAL good. Local armed forces guys tend to hit this game and they have no clue. The game has gotten worse as locals honed in on it, but can still be good on the right nights.
Boulder Station: Best set of regular players in town, period. The 4-8 games there, especially the kill game are tough. Monstrous bad beat jackpot sitting at about $52,000 keeps the room real full. Half blinds and a $3 to 5% drop. Good solid dealers as well. This is a well run room. The 4-8 omaha high game is capped before the flop 5-10 times an hour and has full blinds. Not too smoky.
Texas Station: My local casino. This game is the one that proves that local player does not equate to good player. This game rarely fails to be good. Many local calling stations and fish keep coming back for more. Well run but smoky room has a $3 to 5% drop and a $1 high hand jackpot. Half blinds for this 4-8 half kill game. Uses overs buttons for Pot limit on the weekends. Also spreads a 3-6 omaha H/L game with a kill to 5/10 for scoopers. Worth an off the strip visit. Good dealers.
Sunset Station: I haven’t played much here. $3 to 5% rake with a $1 bad beat jackpot. 3-3-6-9 structure for their LL holdem game encourages suck-outs and I don’t like it much. Large game selection however and not too smoky.
Palace Station: Small smoky room. I find the games to be real rocky and avoid this room. 4-8 games with a bad beat jackpot. Half blinds and $3 to 5% and $1 drop. Solid dealers, but the game is a grind.
Regent: Home of the famed $4,000 - $8,000 game (it happened, I saw them play it 2 days in a row. Security guards kept you from hovering too long tho.) Solid game can get good on weekends but $4 to 10% drop is high. Has mini-awards for high hand of the day. Heard once about a woman who made $1,000 in a real loose $2-4 game there.
Haven’t played Excalibur’s 2-6 game, or at Circus Circus (hate the place) or at the Sahara (they do spread a $1-2 blind no limit game on Sunday’s).
Hope this helps anyone who is vacationing in Vegas an looking for games.
Clarkmeister
Thanks for the summary. Have you ever played at Harrah's?
Harrah's in Chicago - Yes. Harrah's in Vegas closed their room over a year ago.
I forgot to mention Luxor in the original post. It's a pretty loose game during the evenings. They run a small tourney every night too I think. It's a 1-4, 8 spread game. No structure.
Paradise: $1/$2 - JhQh - 3 off the button.
I open-raise (!?) - the player to my left (Lefty) calls - so does the button (Bud) and the Big Blind (BB). 4 players is to see the Flop:
[ 8c 6h 3h ]
It's checked to me - I bet - Lefty raises - Bud and BB calls - I re-raise (!?) - everybody calls.
Turn: [ 8c 6h 3h ] [ Kd ] is checked around.
River: [ 8c 6h 3h Kd ] [ 6s ]
It's checked to me - I bet (!?) - everybody folds !
Rake: $1
Freddie Burg bet $7, collected $21.50, net +$14.50 [ Jh Qh ]
How do you like my play ?
Any comments appreciated !
I like your reraise, right then and there you regained control and they will not see your flush if it were to get there. I disagree with checking on the turn. I would have bet.
I like your flop play. You had a good flush draw, plus two overcards that very well may have been good if they hit. I would have considered betting the turn as well. The river bluff was dangerous into three opponents was real dangerous, you were very lucky they all folded. Many players would call you down with as little as Ace high in this situation. Your chances of a bluff being successful decrease geometrically as the number of players increases.
I think the bet on the river is right. Although he's betting into three opponents, it's likely that at least two of them are on busted draws and are already beaten. With this much money in the pot, it's worth trying to get an AX hand to fold.
*
Anyone who doesn't think position is important in low limit hold'em - check out this hand.
Typical very loose, somewhat passive 4-8 hold'em game. A typical hand has 5 of my opponents (out of 8 - it's a 9 handed table) seeing the flop, with not very much pre-flop raising. Under the gun, I pick up
OK, better than average. Usually in this very loose game I don't raise with 99, because it won't reduce the field very much. I flat call, 2 more callers, and the cutoff raises. Button folds, BB calls, the rest of us call. 5 see the flop for 2 bets each.
(I have not played with the cutoff (raiser) before. No information about his tendencies.)
Flop is
I also generally don't try to bulldoze a second-best hand with this many opponents in this game. I plan to check and fold. Check, check, check, and the cutoff (pre-flop raiser) bets. I fold, one caller, others fold.
Turn is the ©7. Check, cutoff bets, other calls. The river is the ¨8.
Check, check. Cutoff turns over the other two nines! And wins!
I think if he and I had reverse places, I might have won the hand the same way.
Comments?
Dick
Very nice post and a good point. The visuals were impressive
Thanks, Ron. These card images are available for everyone to use; I haven't seen anyone else use them in a while. They were originally supplied to me by Chris Villalobos.
The images and instructions are on my poker page at
http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/deck.htm
Dick
You are about a 22:1 dog to snag a 9 on the turn and are getting 12:1 for a call; so your trips are worth a little over half a bet. If you have the better hand right now you'll probably win about 2/3 of the time. This means (not counting implied odds) that you need to be about 18:1 confident someone has a King before you can fold. That may be reasonable close if someone other then the raiser had bet or raised, but your chances is MUCH better than that when he bets and gets only one call.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean you shouldn't call.
- Louie
On the flop he has to bet when it is checked to him. I assume if you had been in his position, you would have bet, and presumably folded to a check-raise, or perhaps taken one off, then folded on the turn if no nine came. On the turn, having only gotten one caller on the flop, he pretty much should bet, because it doesn't seem likely he is up against a king, rather he is probably against a flush draw (or some other lesser hand, like second pair), so he can't give a free card being that now it is pretty likely he has the best hand. I think your assessment of the situation is pretty much correct. I would have played the same way you did had I been in your position.
Dave in Cali
I generally checkraise the button in this situation, although I might not have this time given he raised preflop and if more likely to have been it by the king. Course I give up pretty fast when people cold call two.
Chris
hello people,
I was playing in a pretty loose 6-12 game the other night when the following hand came up. In 3rd position I pick up As,Ac, and raise two limpers in front of me. I also got 2 cold calls behind me and the big blind called (12 s.b's in the pot). the flop came KJ9(suites are not important here), I didn't really like the flop and reasoned that if I bet when it was checked to me I would bet many calls from a bunch of longshot hands, so I wanted to win the pot as soon as I could. The man on my right was a player that would always try to steal the pot on the turn if it was checked to him. Instead of betting the flop I checked knowing that the man on my right would probably bet the turn allowing me to raise and get out most of the players in the pot. The turn card was scary, a king making the board KJ9K. Sure enoungh, the man to my right bet and I raised. If I got reraised I would probably call one bet and check and fold if I didn't hit an ace on the river. To my delight the rest of the field folded as did the turn better and I took down the pot without anymore worries. What do you all think of my play? Was my check on the flop bad? Was the turn raise correct?
Look foward to some discussion,
cya
I'm no poker expert, but I would bet the flop and bet the turn. I would never make that raise on the turn for two reasons. First, the only people that would call would be someone with a K, precisely the people you DON'T want to think the field for. The people that fold would be the people drawing to gutshots, or possibly people with middle or low pair, and those are precisely the people you DO want to be up against. This check flop/turn raise move I would probably do against the guy on your right, HEADS UP, but I would never try it against 5 other players when the top card pairs up. That's just my two cents. But then again I'm a moron.
I don't like the check on the flop unless you're going for a check-raise on the flop and are pretty certain it will succeed. You're right to be concerned about longshot hands, but checking risks giving them a free card to beat you. By betting, even if it weeds out only a couple of them, that still improves your chances of winning, and of course it gets more money in the pot.
Another reason to bet on the flop is that if someone has a K, they may raise, and help you accomplish your mission of getting the trash out. It turns that nobody would have, but you don't know that at the point where you have to decide what to do on the flop.
Returning to paradise for the first time in a while. I quickly realize I don't have to worry about being the sucker on the table. It's a loose weak passive table with people with VERY bad preflop raise calling standards, and just very bad preflop standards in general.
Four people limp, and I limp on the button with Kc4c. Too loose, even in this game?
Flop: 7s-6c-5s
Early position bets, 3 caller to me, I call with the idiot end. Too loose?
Turn: Qh
Early checks, all check to the worst player on the table, who is on my right. He bets.
Here's where Fancy Play Syndrome (FPS) comes in; I raise. My thinking is to make everyone call two bets cold and get them out. This should fold all the random kings and nines out there, giving me 7 extra outs for the river (I don't believe anyone has a hand bigger than a pair of queens, and even that's dodgy). I'm basically raising to improve my draw.
Too crazy? Too fancy? An inspired play? A waste of time on 0.5/1 when half the players don't know what they have?
Results next post.
One early position cold called, and bad player called.
Now I'm sure no one has a queen, which means to me that they are most likely both on a draw (and with a two flush on board and 3 straight, thats an eminently reasonable conclusion). If a blank hits the river (eg, 2d), I can consider betting again and perhaps dragging this 10BB pot with king high.
River Qs; completing the flush
Early position bet out, and both bad player and myself folded. He didn't show. Too bad; I would really like to have seen that hand. I am fairly sure early player made his flush and that neither of them had a pair on the turn.
Kc4c is pretty marginal with 4 limpers. Even if the blinds stay in that's only 6 opponents and you'd like to have at least one more with an "any two suited" hand, which is really all this is. If you're going to play this, you need to be a better player postflop than your opponents are.
On the flop I would have folded. Having the dumb end of a straight in a 5-way pot with a flush draw on the board in a microlimit Paradise game is not a good position to be in. Your backdoor flush and K don't add enough value to make this hand worth any more investment. Much of the problem is that if you actually make something, it's so weak that you won't have any good way to know if it's a winner and could well have to pay two big bets to find out.
If you can't bring yourself to lay it down on the flop, then it's better to raise than call. Some good things might happen if you raise, not the least of which is you might get a free card on the turn.
The .5/1 is a no foldem game, so your raise on the turn has little effect. You may be able to pull of such a move in a higher limit game, but it's useless in this game.
Kxs is worth playing before the flop if you play reasonably well afterwards. Basically, the flop has to hit you hard (at least two pair or a four flush). If you're going to draw to the idiot end of a straight on this board, you should probably muck pre-flop to keep out of trouble. And $.50/1.00 is no place for fancy plays. :^)
Good title for your post. Fancy play syndrome. Mmmmm. Yep. Uh-Huh.
Although you MAY in fact have improved your outs on the turn from 4 to 8 (straight draw outs), plus a possible three more for the remaining kings, this is certainly far from certain. If the "new" bettor has two pair, you are drawing to only eight outs, if he has specifically Q9, you will have a loser if you hit an 8 for the straight (but you will wind up paying off), if he has Q4 (not impossible for this game…), you are drawing to half the pot, but lose if you don't hit a king, and if he has KQ, you can only make a straight, but will pay off if a king comes. The spade flush draw makes all of these possibilities worse, because any spade might not be an out for you, but you might wind up paying off anyway. Basically, you don't have that many CLEAN outs to win the entire pot, so I would have to call it a clear case of "FPS".
I don't mind the flop call, the backdoor flush adds a little, so your flop play was fine. I assume you would have been REAL careful if an eight showed up….
Dave in Cali
I find at the lower limits of paradise that there is little need for FPS. I tend to bet out when I flop a set or trips. These players will find excuses to stay in to the end with something.
In your case it is unlikely someone will fold a 7 or a 6. Someone with an 8 may fold although even that is unlikely.
I personally would have mucked K4s but that is me.
Ken Poklitar
I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the couple of different software programs available for research. I have been looking at both the Wilson software, adn the AceSpade Software.
If you have any thoughts on either of these products, or poker software in general I would appreciate it.
Thank you
Joe
Hi,
I have asked this question before and had very little luck with the responses. I have used the Wilson software demo and liked what I saw but not enough to buy it yet. I have asked the Acespades people about a demo but they do not have one, they just have screen views on their website.
Come on 2+2ers let the curious know - share the software wealth.
Thanks in advance,
KeyMAn
i have turbo and it rocks. when changing from lots of tourney style games back to ring games it really helps the adjustment. also when im on a losing swing i can check and see if i am playing decently or if im way off. along with the different types of table settings....loose tight...aggressive and about 20 or 30 more, it can get ya ready for just about any game. then its just about knowin the players. it also wouldve saved me alot of cash in the learning process had i had it earlier rather than paying for the basics lessons. ive not played the other one. so i dont know the comparison. but i recommend turbo to anyone wanting to learn quicker or to help find holes in yer game. lots of stats on how you play also, from preflop to river and all in between...
hope this helps
b
I Have both pieces of software.
Although I haven't used the AceSpades much. From what I have seen it doesn't hold a candle to the Wilson software.
I have both Hold'em and 7-Stud wilson software and use it extensively. It seems to me the Ace of Spades code might have been developed in the DOS days or at least some time long ago. Anyway to me there is no comparison!
Wilson has it all over AceSpades!
Yvonne
I have had Wilson for quite a few years and I have found it a great help. They are always upgrading it and the costs is uausally no more than about $20.oo. I have called them a few times and they have been very helpful. Good luck.
Online $2/4, I feel I was maybe making marginal mistakes at EVERY street, and possibly even one or two pretty big mistakes.
I hold Kh2h in SB, two limpers and I complete my bet in small blind. Borderline at best? Pot $8.
Flop: K-8-6, rainbow with one heart. I bet out (big mistake?), big blind and first limper drops, second limper (in mid-position) raises. The pot is now $14 and I am getting 7:1 on a call, hoping to spike a deuce or a heart (13 outs/semi-outs) on the turn. I call. Marginal mistake?
Turn: 10h. I check/call. Would betting out or even check-raising be better? However, probably my not-incorrect decision, as I'm now getting 5:1 on a call, with $24 in the pot if I call.
River: 6. Board: K-T-8-6-6. I check, opponent bets. By now I feel I've gone to far to suddenly fold top pair on the river. I call. Big mistake?
Opponents shows AsKs for top pair/top kicker to beat my top pair to go with the rest of the board.
I get the feeling that plays like these will be a real bankroll killer despite probably getting the correct odds on the Fourth street and calling the river with top pair heads-up usually won't be a loser in the long run, but in this spesific hand I may should've saved a bet on the river.
Lars
[I hold Kh2h in SB, two limpers and I complete my bet in small blind. Borderline at best? Pot $8. ]
Nope. This is what killed you. These calls cost much more than half a bet because the mistake gets amplified on later streets.
[Flop: K-8-6, rainbow with one heart. I bet out (big mistake?), big blind and first limper drops, second limper (in mid-position) raises. The pot is now $14 and I am getting 7:1 on a call, hoping to spike a deuce or a heart (13 outs/semi-outs) on the turn. I call. Marginal mistake? ]
Betting out is not a mistake, although many players do not do it. You found out right away where you stood. The big mistake was calling the raise, even for a half bet, even at 7:1 odds. You weren't getting those odds on your cards, and the problem with thinking in terms of these odds is you end up calling that river bet with K2.
[Turn: 10h. I check/call. Would betting out or even check-raising be better? However, probably my not-incorrect decision, as I'm now getting 5:1 on a call, with $24 in the pot if I call. ]
Absolutely must check here. Your opponent just postured into an uncoordinated board. You want to get through this as cheaply as possible. The chances he will fold isn't good enough to justify the high risk you'll have to pay two bets to see the river.
[River: 6. Board: K-T-8-6-6. I check, opponent bets. By now I feel I've gone to far to suddenly fold top pair on the river. I call. Big mistake?]
You get 7:1 on this call. It's close. If the opponent is good, he would likely check the river with kings up and a kicker less than 10, so it's pretty safe he has you beat. If he's average, you should always pay off.
[Opponents shows AsKs for top pair/top kicker to beat my top pair to go with the rest of the board.]
Ouch.
[I get the feeling that plays like these will be a real bankroll killer despite probably getting the correct odds on the Fourth street and calling the river with top pair heads-up usually won't be a loser in the long run, but in this spesific hand I may should've saved a bet on the river. ]
They say post-flop play is the key, but when in the blinds pre-flop play saves you more than anything. Outside of the blinds, Sklansky and Malmuth's advice on starting hands is appropriately tight. In the blinds, they are way too loose for the average player. Their recommendations assume solid postflop play. Since the blinds are the hardest positions to play from, anybody who isn't a bona fide expert should play them tighter than they recommend. If you think that's too tight, check out Tommy Angelo's posts. It'd make your heart ache to see some of the hands he throws away from the blinds. ;-)
Matt
PreFlop: Reasonable call.
Flop: (top pair no kicker). Your hand is good enough to bet, but check-raising a late better is also an option. Rarely if ever fold a hand for a single raise like this (unless its Mother Theresa). Notice the player MAY have a 97 straight draw.
Turn: Picked up your draw but the possible straight draw also made it. Check-call certainly seems the top option, but bet-call is in the hunt; mostly because it ends up the same (you both put in one bet while you are drawing) most of the time but gains ground if the opponent was screwing around; and loses ground when he's got a set.
River: You can fold against many players, against most you need to pay off most of the time.
Well played. Get ready for the next hand.
- Louie
Would you have posted if the opponent had AT and YOU had won? Dare I suggest that you would not. If so, I am now suggesting that you seem to be associating the actual loss with presumed bad play. To succeed, you MUST get over that.
Classic Kicker Trouble....
Here's the game that brought me back after 2 hrs of not winning a single pot in an average 3-6 game. players.
Eight-handed,3 solid players, dealt KhQh in early-mid position. UTG raises, 2nd player called, I called, plus 2 more players after me. Button (1 of the 3 good ones) made it 3-bets. SB (a semi-calling station), BB (the strongest of the 3)called, UTG capped. 2nd player (another fairly good one)folded. With the size of the pot and 2 calling stations behind me, I called. Only 1 of them called. Six-handed, 28 SBs.
Flopped TsQc2h. Both blinds checked, UTG bet, I raised with my top pair K kicker and flush backdraw. (Was I correct as I was trying to find out where everybody was?). Next player folded, Button made it 3 bets (dang! AQ or KK, I'm toast). SB folded, BB cold-called (2pairs? I knew he loves to pump it up on the turn if he thinks he has the best hand). UTG (I thought he had JJ or 99)and I called (desperately looking for another heart, what the heck, the pot is humongous!) Good or bad move?
Turn 8h. Good God, I'm alive! Everybody checked to the raiser who bets, BB raised (2pairs?). UTG folded. I thought for a while and I nervously called.
River 5h! But BB quickly bet. I took a deep breath thinking he must have the nut flush) and nervously called again. Button disgustedly called. BB showed Q8, showed my K high flush, button mucked and said that he had the best hand - AQ. Took a big pot that helped me become a winner that night. Anything I could have done differently? Comments appreciated.
I think you played it fine. Pre-flop is ok, but notice that folding, particularly to the first raise wouldn't be a horrendous mistake.
On the river, I would raise. And it's not even close. Just like you will have a hard time putting anyone on a runner-runner NUT flush here (AhQh or AhKh is impossible hands, although AhTh is a possibility, though hugely overplayed), it's also hard (though these players didn't have a single heart did they?) for BB to put any two of you on a runner-runner flush, and his bet on two pair w/top pair is probably marginally correct.
But the real reason you should raise, is the button's call in-between. Normally, it's the classic question of risking to lose two bets to gain one. Here, you could also gain two if both decide to pay off your raise. Don't know if both would have, but it could happen. The thing is that in this three-way showdown, you only have remote fear that ONE of your opponents MAY have you have. You DO have button beat. IMHO, that's just about enough reason to make the raise.
lars
First pre-flop call was pretty weak against most raisers since they almost always have a hand at least as good as KQ. 2nd pre-flop call almost automatic since your pot odds are twice what they were for the first call.
No, raising to "find out where you are at" is almost always a waste of time since this sort of information rarely turns a bad play into a good one: if you missed the turn you would still call a single bet, no? If so, then the difference between "suspecting you are beat" and "knowing you are beat" doesn't change your behavior much.
Yes, raise the flop, although calling, hehehe, to raise the turn is an option. Yes, call the 3-bet.
The pot is huge on the turn, you are getting about 21:2 for your 5:1 shot, plus a K or Q MAY win it for you. "Nervous" isn't an emotion you should be having getting more than twice the pot odds you need.
No, it does NOT look like BB has a flush. Since it really looks like the button has one big pair and will call one bet but not two, then go for the over-call. If you suspect he'll lay down his over-pair for one bet (very unlikely), then raise. If you think he'll call two-bets then raise.
- Louie
I like the raise that you made after the flop. You might have pushed out a few people to reduce your odds of losing the pot. I think that calling with all of the money in the pot was a wise decision. Thats why starting standards are so important. Sklanskys says in his book Theory of Poker, in order to call a raise it has to be a hand you would consider raising with. I am sure that mid or late position, you would raise with k q suited, therefore I agree with your calling preflop. When the 8h hit on the turn you are now stuck until the river. Isnt is nice to river someone,instead of getting rivered? Nice work, see you Thursday at the Trop mg
I get AhAd on button...
7 limp, I raise, all call...
FLOP:
5h-6d-8h
all check, i check
TURN:
5h-6d-8h--Tc
5 players check, cutoff bets, i raise, all fold, cutoff calls
comments?
.
WOO HOO!!! ACES ON THE BUTTON!!!
Why check the flop? You just raised preflop after FIVE limpers. They know you have a hand, bet it. You think this flop was so good that you can just give a free card to everyone? Do you think this flop is so scary that everyone will fold if you bet? Doubt it.
I would definately bet the flop here.
PG
With 2 hearts and a possible stright on the flop, why not bet and make the draws pay to play. You are giving away to much by checking, unless you are in position to get in a check raise. Good luck.
further discussion of waiting til turn to double big bet,,,gl
nate -
you have to wait until the turn here. with 16 small bets in the pot, you are simply not going to prevent anyone with any kind of draw or hand from seeing the turn. the difference between giving them infinite odds and 17-1, 18-1, 19-1, etc, is trivial in this case; the cards are so cheap that they may as well be free anyway.
however, by checking the flop, you can prevent players from drawing out on you on the river, though, and that's exactly what you did. think about what would have happened had you bet the flop. it's likely that at least 3 players would call, putting 10.5 large bets in the pot. you get checked to again, and have to give everyone 11.5-1 to see the river. by encouraging the cutoff to bet, you gave everyone 5.5-1 instead, meaning you will win the pot far more often.
and everyone would do well to remember that when the pots get large, your job is to win them, not to get more money in there with the likely best hand. see the loose games section of hpfap for more on this concept.
good play.
the club
I think that is right, you should check. Not that betting would be a bad move, but you could only do it for value, with the board as it is and with the large pot, people would be very unlikely to fold. Someone may complete the flush or straight on the turn, but they would have called the one bet on the flop anyway if they had the draw. So you are actually saving yourself money in that situation. See HPFAP pp. 170-172 for specifics on this situation. -Tim
This is a textbook-perfect application of waiting for the turn to raise. Well played. I keep meaning to try it, but every time I'm in this position, my hands reflexively reach for the chips, and I mutter to myself, "Damn. I'll remember next time."
zooey
3-6-12 Hold'em, I'm dealt K-K in the big blind. Good table, lots of tourists, couple rocks. Table all the sudden goes crazy preflop and betting gets capped to me with 7 players in. I call of course. Flop comes K-Q-blank rainbow. I check , betting gets capped again! Huge pot, 5 players in. Next card is a blank, but two hearts are on the board. I check, player bets, fold, call, call, and I raise. Player who bet reraises( I put him on Q-Q). Next player folds and other calls. I cap the betting. The river brings a heart. I reluctantly bet 6, call, I get raised to 18. I call , other player folds and shows Q-Q. I lose to the A-8 of hearts flush. Could I have done anything differently?
You got all your money in, and lots of it, with the best hand. Your slow play paid-off in that you got to cap it on the turn. Fear of back-door draws is usually silly so betting on the river is automatic, as is calling the raise.
Why do you ask?
- Louie
Thanks for the comments, that hand really annoyed me and I felt like sharing it in case someone some different insight.I was pretty sure I played it correctly.
Yes. Don't bet the river.
Other than that, probably not.
I'm in the SB w/ K,Qcc in a tight passive game w/ 2 other good players, neither of which are in this hand.
LP, MP, limp and I complete my bet, blind checks.
FLop- K,Q,9 rainbow
I decide to bet out. Only LP and MP calls.
Turn- J
I decide to bet out to see if that card hit anybody. MP raises, LP calls, and I muck.
River was a blank MP bet and LP called. MP turns over J,9 for two pair and LP mucks. Did I have to lay this one down? A contributing factor to my muck was the fact that LP called. About my ply though, my thoughts are if I try to check-raise the flop MP won't raise me w/ two-pair more likely for fear of the straight. Would this have helpped? In retrospect I don't think I should have laid this down because MP was overly aggressive w/ some hands. But oh well. All thoughts appreciated.
SS
$
If you know that MP is an overly aggressive player who can (semi)bluff raise here with less than a straight, and LP is a loose caller (who will call a raise with less than a straight here), I think betting out is not the play. I think you should bet here, if you can lay down with clear conscience when raised, or that MP bluffs way too much, and LP is a predictable player (preferably weak/tight). If they're bluffing way too much and LP could also cause you problems, it's probably better to check-call turn and river, hoping to induce bluffs.
As you already noticed, since MP is overly aggressive, your descision is mainly based on LP action. So it would come in handy if you would know something about his playing style. If you didnt know anything about LP, I would most likely lay this down, especially if he doesnt know MP is overly aggressive. His cold call screems that he wants you to overcall, because if he's a somewhat decend player, he will raise MP here if he suspects that he's bluffing to isolate him. As I said, his play screems for overcalls.
But since MP won with 2 pair, I think LP is a weak/loose player. In that case, I dont like your turn bet, and you should probably have check-called all the way.
Regards
I had no read on the LP player... He had just satten down about 10-20 minutes ago.
SS, His semi bluff raise worked. He narrowed the field to decrease his chances of losing. You could have reraised him since you knew he was an agressive player, or you could have called him down. Why did you fold? Did you fear the raise or that he had you beaten? If he was an agressive player, MP would have raised with A10,JJ,KK,QQ or 99. Since he didnt raise preflop what did you think he had? He limped in so you could have put him on two pair J9.He was also on a straight draw, so he was attempting to get more money in the pot. What do you think he thought that you had? There was 48 in the pot before you mucked it. You had 4 outs to hit your hand, 2 queens and 2 kings. You also didnt to need to improve.MP has 2 J's,2 10's,or 2 9's to make his hand. Even though you were a slight favorite, he had 2 more outs than you, so his raise wasnt a bad move on his part. If you had just called to the river, you would have had 60 in the pot. That would have given you 10-1 odds. 6 to win 60. Depending on who you are playing with, a reraise there to get head to head with MP might be a smart play since you thought he played agressivly. Laying down the winner is frustrating, and will cost you more money in this game than anything else. Dont let yourself get bullied around. mg
Doesn't a 10 here make it a four way split pot unless someone has an ace? I am not sure i'm clear on your outs. I folded mainly due to LP's call and the fact that I had no read on LP. Also I put the over-aggressive player on a 10x suited, he had played that. So I was reasonably sure one of them had a straight and I didnt have the odds to draw to my full-house.
You have four outs to a full house, so you need about 11:1 to justify a call. You're completing the action and getting 10:1. Plus you can count on getting some bets on the river, so with implied odds you have a call.
The key is, you also can't rule out the fact that you have the best hand here. That makes it an easy call.
SS:
I think on the turn you should check and call the bet because the implied pot odds are there to draw to the fullhouse if you are behind. This is a similar situation to when a flush card comes against more than one opponent and you have a redraw to the win. HPFAP does talk at some length about these sitations and dose caution about assuming a made hand.
Regards, Dale Duguid
Paradise 3-6 hand
I have 5s 2s in the BB. UTG and 2 midpos. limps and a check from a latepos. poster. I check.
5 see the flop: As Ad 6s
checked to MP2 who bets and get 3 calls. (UTG folds)
4 see the turn: Qs
I check, check, bet, raise (late poster)
14,5 SB in the pot.
What should i do?
Had a bad feeling and was close to fold. What can he raise on less than a flush and i cant beat a flush with those 2 small cards.
Well, i called the 2 bets - the better folded.
The river was blank and i called one more bet and lost to Js 8s.
I probably would have bet right out on the turn and see what happens behind you. I think this way you will much better be able to find out where you are based on the action behind you.
I have a feeling you are beat, and you are only getting about 3.5-1 odds on your call. I would fold if I were in your situation.
I would not have called the flop bet. When the board is paired with aces it is doubly dangerous to draw to a flush or str8 as many players play any ace. When there is a bet and 3 calls there is definitely an ace out there and likely a higher flush draw than yours. I would muck it there.
On the turn you have to fold. Even if the raiser has only an ace, what does the first bettor have? He may end up re-raising and then where do you stand?
and how bad was the mistake?
Hollywood Park 6/12 (big blind and 1/3 bet small blind). I'm in the cutoff with As2s. 4 limpers to me. I limp. Button folds. Blinds call, check. Small blind seems to be a descent player, but overcalls frequently. A MP is a very good player, best at the table. They are both in. Flop comes 722 rainbow (one spade). There's an early bet, 3 drop out the rest call. I plan to raise the turn. Turn comes a Q off-suit. SB bets out. All drop to MP who calls. All drop to me, I raise. They both call! I'm surprised - I figure one of then has a 2, but with a lesser kicker than mine. And I don't have a clue what the other has. River comes a K. SB bets! and MP raises. I call and SB calls. SB turns over QQ, MP turns over KK. I muck. I was baffled that either of these players slow played their BIG pairs??? As I look back, I think about what I've read on this board many times, "what do you think the other players could hold that they would call your raise with?" But how wrong was I?
Thanks,
-Michael
There is little reason to slow-play the flop since a raise on your part affectively disguises your hand; who will put YOU on a 2? Otherwise, where exactly is your error? It would be pretty tough to lay that one down, but I suppose you could have.
when the Q hit, then when the river didn't bring the case 2. Tough call there. It seems impossible to me that one of those big pairs wouldn't raise you off of your hand. I would have played it the same way. I may have lost a few more bets, putting my opponents on a lower kicker or two pair. Tricky play. Set over set is an option too.
ouch.....thems the breaks..thats why they call it gamblin'...who bet the flop? SB?. i think ya did alright as far as check-call, however all the action on the river i mightve released with 2 big bets comin. but that can go either way. but remember you have a solid guy in there, what would he be raising with against a paired board. its not unheard of to limp with big pairs...the SB had no real reason to bet pre flop....he wasnt gonna lose anyone with a raise which wouldve made the drawing hands happy. but he got beat a little worse i think.. hes the one losin to the 22-1 shot...ouch for him too...he couldve raised the turn and maybe got the KK out. but he may have been figuring quads on your reraise. actually played the hand real nice. hands to call your raise with: 77, AQs/o, QQ, KQs/o, 72s
Michael,
I don't think you went too far wrong, I would have raised the flop. But it wouldn't have changed things.
Funny that you came in third, though.
next hand,
good luck,
Bob T.
Michael,
Your preflop play is fine. If you had a tell that the button might be folding, you might even raise occasionally in this spot, although that is a higher variance play. If you do so, however, you have to realize that you are not looking to flop a pair, but rather you are adding value to your flush draws, in addition to setting up later positional plays.
On the flop, I raise. In these smaller limit games, I find that slowplaying is often not the way to go, as you'll get called by hopeless draws anyways. Charge people the maximum. Moreover, as Louie said, this serves to disguise your hand, as typical opponents won't believe that you would play a 2 in this way.
On the turn, when you raise and both call, you have to be a little concerned. You are now defining your hand to some extent. What hands would they call with here? On the other hand, with a real monster, they might come over the top and 3-bet you at this stage, so the fact that this did not happen should make you a little happier.
When the river comes, and there is a bet and a raise in front of you, you have to call 2 to win 13.5 bets by my count. In essence, in order to make a laydown correct, you'd have to be more than 87% sure that you're beat. This is a close decision, and would depend on my read of the other players. How would they play AK, AQ, KQ in this situation? Would they have been this passive with KK, QQ, 77 up to now? My guess is that calling on the end may have been very slightly wrong, but not near the catastrophe that folding incorrectly could have been.
These hands happen. I don't think you played poorly.
Cheers,
Dave Shaw
Posted by: Bob T. (rjruler@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 20 August 2001, at 2:37 p.m.
Posted by: Dave Shaw (rshaw@ualberta.ca)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 8:26 p.m.
I am in fifth position in a wild 3-6 HE game.
I am dealt two black queens. UTG, a very wild player, posts a live straddle. Fourth position makes it three bets to go. I make it four bets to go. One late position player cold calls 4 bets, small blind cold calls 3.5 bets, UTG caps it at 5 bets. Everyone calls. Five of us see the flop. Pot $78.
Flop is K-5-7 rainbow. Small blind bets! UTG calls, and so does fourth position! I call the $3 in hopes of catching a queen on the turn. The pot is giving me 29-1 odds on my call and my odds of catching a queen on the turn is 23.5-1, assuming nobody else has a queen (if this is wrong, can someone please correct me, I am still learning...). The late position player also calls.
The turn is a 6 (not sure what suit, but puts a red two-flush on the board, neither of my queens is one of that suit). Small blind bets again! UTG calls and fourth position call again! At this point I fold. (Pot is giving me about 18.5-1 on my call, but odds of catching my queen are still 23-1, and one of them would put a three flush on the board). Late position player also calls.
River is an offsuit 10 (board is K-5-7-6-10). Small blind checks! UTG checks! Fourth position bets, late position player calls, and SB and UTG both fold. Fourth position player shows 44, and late position player mucks.
Do I need to call the turn and river? Any comments and criticism greatly appreciated.
JS - you and I are going to have to talk someday...Assuming you play at Canterbury, we're probably facing each other last night across the same 3-6 table...(you weren't on table 2 last night by any chance, were you, that was a WILD 3-6 game )
if so, my advice would radically differ from what I would otherwise say...Let me know...I was the tall goofy guy in the funny purple shirt with a yellow head over the pocket.
Actually, I was playing at table 4 last night. I ended up only playing there for about an hour and moved to a more passive 2-4 game where I made up for what I lost at 3-6... I go to Canterbury a few times a week, so I wouldn't be surprised If I have seen you before...
Ah - table 4...right in front of the board. If you were seat 5, then you were the guy next to the guy wearing headphones if you were there in the evening.
Well then, you probably made the right call. I would find it hard to believe a capped bet with 4 callers didn't represent at least KK or AA.
On my table, we had 3 kids who liked to push each other to straddle and crap...pretty loose...(I almost suspected collusion) - If I can put the wild guys on bad cards like they play most of the time, I'll go to the river on it with Pocket Q's. - I came in when the guy I call "Hurricane Skip" left...so I thought you had to be playing him or those kids on my table.
Someday, I've got to play other card rooms just to see how different they are from the only one in Minnesota.
Actually, I was in seat one at the table, I was just in fifth position in the hand. But anyways...
I would like to say something about younger poker players. I'm not pointing fingers but I would just like to see what kind of reactions this message might get... I would have to say that the majority play because playing is fun and they like to win a lot of money and they like trying to make fancy plays and they just plain like or love poker. However, I also believe that there are other "kids" that do know a great deal about the game, much more than most players that play the lower limits. Unfortunately for the few kids that have been serious students of the game that have read the books and know what they are doing, many of the older players automatically place them all in the same pen and brand them just plain "kid". When this happens, I see older players, some that don't know what they're doing themselves and some that actually do know what they're doing, treat all kids with disrespect. They might act this way because a kid didn't make the right play, they played rags and ended up hitting their miracle card on the river, or they just don't have respect for any young punk trying their luck at a game of poker. Well, I would like to say that yes, there are some kids that may play that way and might even deserve that type of treatment. However, not all of these kids play like that. I have seen a few that really know what they're doing. They know when they are beaten, they know some advanced strategies, and they know how to play in tight games or loose games.
In addition, I would like to mention a comment that I read in an article by Daniel Negreanu. He basically said that he was disgusted by players that ridiculed others for playing "bad". This is because for those who know what they're doing, that is how you WANT them to play. Sure, they might snap your aces with their 7-2 offsuit and leave you in a rage. But a good player knows that in the long run, those are the players that one will make the majority of his money off of.
So... to end this post, I would just like to say that I feel that kids are generally (that means not everyone) stereotyped in the poker room, at least in MN.
How do some of you out there feel? Are there seriously any good younger players out there? Or are they all just kids. Any comments on this subject are greatly appreciated.
(p.s. try and guess my age if you like...)
To "brown", I also want to play in other states to see what they are like... I wonder if the middle limits at Canterbury play like the middle limits in larger poker states (like 6-12 comparing to a 10-20 game somewhere else).
(p.s. try and guess my age)
age - hell, I'm not even sure of your gender- but since I'm in my 20's, I'll let it slide.
That's always a semi-problem. Stereotyping players based on their age, table attitude, ethnic background (yes, I know...it's SO politically incorrect) - but stereotypes have existed in part because they tend to be correct. I tend to make assumptions, and then play on them till I realize that the guy is actually not what he appears to be. For example, I had my AK rivered by a guy tonight who played a A6 till he got a pair of 6's. - and this was after my preflop raise and betting the flop and turn. I quickly realized this quiet older fragile gentleman who I had assumed was playing real tight was actually quite prone to fishing - whoops...adjustment made. - but I'll usually come out ahead if I give older people respect.
In general, the younger players I have played don't hang on to their money as well, so if they raise, and they do it a lot, I call...I changed tables tonight for that reason. That and they kept saying, "boy, are we on tilt!!" (sounds like a mating call to me) - but I've tried hard not to belittle playing styles...seriously...why correct play that will make you money in the long run? so I don't sweat it too much...I'm not an old seasoned pro yet myself...but these three I played the other night didn't deserve any kudos. (My gosh...one of them got check-raised three times after the flop, turn, and river, and I've seen him in a dealer's shirt there...Must learn something)
P.S. And I did get my pocket K's snapped off tonight by 2/7 - and I got rivered, and I tried like hell not to go on tilt, and I left 10 bucks ahead for the night, after being $270 down... because I figured I could get my money back if I just stayed at the table and continued to play my best hands...That's almost more enjoyable then just winning the $300 cold.
Thanks to you that responded to this post. I also love playing with those kids are fresh off of their couch from watching "Rounders". It is a great movie I must say, I own it on both vhs and dvd. However, it can give a young young player a big head and so they want to go out and show the world in the cardroom... and this ends up being the profit of the better players. To brown, I just have to mention that I saw some other pretty crappy hands snap some good hands lately... AK snapped by 7-2, Ac-8c w/ nut flush snapped by 2-6o with a full house, and saw 7-2, 6-2 and 9-2 win three hands in a row. Good job on your recovery from your kings getting snapped, that is a good feeling when you know you played a session to your full potential, although your billfold may not reflect your performance.
(p.s. i will mention my age in the next post)
I also play at Canterbury and i know what you mean. there are some very good younger players who are clumped in with the majority of the kids who play. While i treat everyone with respect i generally view these palyers as very weak. Many kids come from college have watched rounders get lucky early in the summer and think they can run all over the tables. I seek these games out as they are very profitable.
Let me start out by saying that I am a recently-turned-23 poker player. I've been playing for about 7 years. I have a good understanding of the game and win on a consitent basis. I would have to say that older players see younger players as marks to try to bully around on the table. I welcome this chance, especially when its obvious that its their intent. I can point out a poor player just as good as anybody but I do have respect for some older players with much more experience than I do. Bankroll size is one factor holding back younger players. When I'm playing a tournament and can only afford one rebuy I'm at a great disadvantage to those that can afford unlimited. These are some random thoughts, but I must say that age doe not make the poker player. It is patience, aggresiveness and the ability to put people on a hand.
-Mike
ps. I would guess that you are 37
js,
In order to compare the odds of your hand improving with the pot odds and implied odds against the bet you must make, you have to count the cards that do not help you against the cards that do help you.
In this example, you want to know the odds that a Q will fall on the turn. There are 45 cards that do not help you (not Q's) and 2 cards that do (the Q's). 45 to 2 reduces to 22.5 to 1. On the river, there were 44 cards that did not help you and 2 that did, making the odds against you 22 to 1. You correctly recognized that one of your outs was not clean and took that into account.
There is nothing wrong with your preflop raise. It's not likely that anyone will notice whether you call a couple bets cold or raise.
You are getting odds to call on the flop even though there is an overcard and one person to act behind you. Note, though, everyone else is getting the same odds to chase as you.
On the turn, you're getting 18.5 to 1 to call. Yes, this is not enough pot odds to call hoping to spike 1 clean Q and maybe surviving the other Q. However, you only need to win a little more than 5% of the time to make this play profitable!! Looking at it another way, if you are beat, you have lost 2 extra big bets. This may be a mistake, but it is a very small mistake compared to folding the best hand.
Thanks for the corrections, they are greatly appreciated. On the turn, I felt that I was surely beaten, and was only about 50% sure that the red queen that would have put a three flush on the board would make my hand a winner.
Man, that sucks! All I can say is that you played your hand correct, at least mathematically, and that in the long run you'll be ahead (or so I here). I can't believe the 4th position player bet the river, a complete bluff, knowing there was still one player behind him, not to mention the possibilty of a check-raise from SB or UTG. The only thing dumber than that guy's bet was the LP player's call with rags!! He/she couldn't even beat a pair of 4's !? Unbelieveable!
It's these types of plays from these types of players that frustrate the hell out of me, a lot of times forcing me to fold my marginal hands, that were in reality winners. I wouldn't be surprised if SB folded his pair of Kings too, fearing he would be overcalling.
What a crazy game!
This is the time that it would've helped if you have been paying attention to how the player plays. If you could detect that he has a tendency to bluff, then with a pot this big, you need to call him down all the way.
I have seen too much mickey mouse crap people trying to pull when the board paired or 3-flushed, etc, while the pot is big. So you kinda have to know your players and it should pay off.
Yes, it would have been nice to know the players a little bit... unfortunately for me, it was only my fourth hand! Otherwise, I would have taken it into account... thanks for the input
Just a note one calculating odds. The fact that some other opponent may be holding one of the cards you need does not change the calculation. As far as you're concerned, after the flop, there are 47 unseen cards. One of your queens has an equal chance of being any one of the 47 -- 2/47. The turn may be a queen with 2/47 likelihood. Any one card that you look at has a 2/47 change of being a queen. Now if you see a queen in someone elses hand, that's a different story. Like if someone mucks face up on the flop and one of their cards is a queen, then the chances of the turn coming a queen is 1/45 (you've seen 7 cards and 1 queen remains that you do not know where it is).
Hope that helps - sometimes the way we think gets in the way.
I think you played fine. Be glad you are playing against such a bunch of morons. They will eventually lose all their money. You simply got unlucky here, in that a king fell and pretty much forced you into a position of having to fold the turn.
in response to the comment about younger players, i have this to say. first, i am 23 years old, and i have only been playing poker for about 2 years. in that time, i have learned a lot about the game, and its strategies, and subcultures, etc. over all i am just beginning to beat the game. i am ahead over all, but i have had some violent swings along the way. i lost 460 dollars the first time i played in a casino (i just got a check from an insurance company for a car accident. i didn't care to actually repair my car, because it was still driveable, and the money was nice to have... for a little while.) i was playing 2-6-6 stud at the soaring eagle in michigan. played for 14 hours. ive also come to pretty much hate stud now, and generally only play hold em. i have a better record playing hold em, and i intend to improve. i just got back to illinois from L.A. and the low limit games here are much tougher than the ones out there. i am adjusting to that, and i am constantly improving my game. i think that the initial stereotype of younger players as being too aggressive, and bluffing too much, and having enormously inflated egos, and just playing bad is pretty correct. many are out at the casino for the first time and drinking and are very inexperienced at the game. they think that they are somehow cooler or better because they can throw money away gambling and nobody really looks down on that foolishness because they are gambling, you are supposed to lose money at casinos. but there are a small number of us (i don't know too many, but i know a couple) who are actually students of the game, and intend to spend the lifetime it takes to master. i know i need to improve. and i am working on that. but i guess that some of us do deserve a little respect at the table. (i was playing with rocks the other day, and i was getting way too much respect. and i didn't reciprocate and get out of their way when it was obvious they flopped broadway, and my 2 pair was no good.) there are plenty of older players too who demand too much respect because of their age, but they are actually horrible players, and it is really fun to play against them because they raise and reraise because they somehow 'deserve' to win the pot because of experience, and the young kids are too aggressive and they can't push them out of a pot, etc. this can be a very profitable situation as well. i like playing against agressive younger players too. especially when i can get a good read on them, and know when to call them down, and when not to. i had pocket 66 the other day, and the flop came 345. one younger player bet, the others dropped, and i called him down the whole way, to the river where i still didn't improve. the guy was betting A5 the whole way. i won a decent sized pot and everyone else gave me a lot more respect for my reads after that. (course i blew it when i paid off an obvious set at another table a while later.) i guess what im trying to say is that while many younger players you will encounter are nothing more than arrogant long-run losers, there to 'gamble', there are a few of us out there that are actually half-way decent, and if you're not careful, just when you think you are calling down an over-agressive bluff, you are actually paying off the better hand.
3/6 holdem, 10 players.
Preflop: UTG limps. I limp in MP w/JQs. Cutoff raises. Button cold calls. Blinds fold. UTG calls. So 4 players seeing the flop.
Flop: Ks Td 5h
I have open end straight with backdoor flush draw. Cutoff bets. All call. Still 4 players.
Turn: 9d [Ks Td 5h]
I go for check raise here. Cutoff bets. Button folds. UTG calls. I check raise. Both call. 3 players.
River: Qd [Ks Td 5h 9d]
I bet. Cutoff raises. UTG cold calls. I call.
Cutoff turns over AJc. UTG turns over J6d and took down the pot. Comments welcome.
Pre-flop was fine IMO
Flop was an easy call
Turn you had the nuts, and you got the most in as possible
River you most definitly did not have the nuts. You're now third to any flush and a broadway. I'd check/call.
Mike
I would have check raised the flop with my open ended straight draw. Both your draws are to the nuts, and you have 3 opponents. You have 8 outs, so you are check raising for value against 3 opponents.
A reraise from the cut-off may have got UTG to lay down in hind sight as well. I doubt it but maybe.
Otherwise good play,
Derrick
After the flop callers, you should probably have raised with your draw, especially since you have a back-door flush going as well. Its no disaster if CO raises and it gets down to 3 of you.
I'm all for betting assertively for value on the river, and so would do so in this situation. Don't lose any sleep over it.
Take note of the curious turn bet CO made with his gut shot draw into a dangerous board with early callers. This player seems to be a leading candidate for future check-raises.
- Louie
I would have check-raised the flop, then bet the turn. With eight solid outs on the turn, and three opponents, you were getting value if you check-raised. Since you didn't raise the flop, I like the check-raise on the turn. Both the cutoff and the Jd6d played atrociously. Be glad they were in the game, despite the results of this particular hand.
I will take c-r the flop into consideration next time. Thanks for the feedbacks.
loosish 3-6, I'm in the BB with A2s.
UTG limps, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, button, a fair player, raises. SB drops, I call, along with all limpers.
Flop A72 rainbow. Checked to Button who obliges with a bet, I check-raise, the field cooperates by folding, button calls.
Turn T: A72(T). I bet, call.
River J: A72T(J). I check, planning to call a bet.
Questions:
1) In the BB, I roughly play as follows: with my relatively weak hands, I bet out, planning to fold if someone even looks mean while they call. I would out a weak Ace in this category here. Next rung up, I would play it as I did here, a check raise to thin the field. Next up, I would bet the flop, hoping for a button raise so I can three bet. And finally, with my best hands, I would wait for the turn.
I think I may have undervalued my hand here. The field is relatively large, but its not likely anyone has has more than 3 outs on me (hitting their kicker). If the board was two-toned or straight-ish, I definitely check-raise, but here, I dunno, anyone think I should have got more greedy with 10 sb's already in the pot?
2) Too paranoid on river? The only realistic hands which beat me are AJs (2) and JJ (3), out of all the AK, AQ, KK, QQ, etc. Does the "induce-a-bluff-from-a -hand-that-wont-call" rationalization hold enough water? Somehow I doubt it.
All comments appreciated, and I would especially like some feedback on my flop strategy in general and here specifically (I'm pretty sure I botched the riv).
results to follow, etc, etc.
zooey
River checked down, button had AQo, and my estimation of his playing ability went up one notch for not betting the river, and down a quarter notch for raising 3 limpers with AQo. I think you want a small pot preflop with that hand and 4 players, not one that inspires calls. opinions?
I would have bet the river heads up. Two pair is a relatively strong holding heads up.
I would tend to bet even very strong hands on the flop hoping for a raise and then I may call. If the raise came from a late position I would still usually three bet fearing that they are trying for a free card, and I would have to lead the turn anyway fearing it would be checked around. Lead betting on the flop also tends to hide the value of your hand. A flop bet is often not taken too seriously, but a check raise on the turn will often provoke a fold.
I think a check raise with a vulnerable hand such as yours is a good idea in the scenario you described. You should be fairly certain that someone will bet for you.
Derrick
I would usually raise here with 3 limpers. AQo is quite often the best hand, and I have the best position.
Derrick
I'm a beginner, so please answer this one. Today I had the King-high flush on the river, I was the dealer. The board was paired with tens. The first guy bets, the next guys raises. I called -- stupid me. He wound up having a full house, jacks full of tens. Would you have called?
That depends on the players you were up against, the action that has taken place so far and the size of the pot. there is no yes or no answer.
Vladimir,
If you are heads up you should almost almost always call, especially with a high flush. But in a multiway pot, when there is a bet and a raise, it is more likely you are beaten. And now you have to cold call 2 big bets. It is really a judgement call depending on what you think of the players that are in the hand, their past play, and their betting patterns on that hand. Usually if you feel you are beaten, you probably are and should fold, especially when it is multiway like this. But if you don't know where you stand, then I would call. A lot of this just comes down to experience, I think. -Tim
yes
Your question is too vague because you didn't give enough information. While many times I would fold, it depends on the exact board, opponents, and how the hand has played out so far.
Dave in Cali
I didn't provide info on the opponents because I was in a cardroom where these players were unfamiliar to me. It takes a while to really observe one's playing style.
But I do appreciate all the responses and I believe I benefited from them. :-)
An unusually good 3/6 game with 6 or more players seeing most flops. Several fish see every flop. A couple of tighter players, including me.
I am in the cutoff with Kd 3d. Now in a more typical game I would muck this hand, but with so many players seeing the flop and chasing if they get a piece of it, I like these drawing hands. Five players limp to me, I limp, the button calls, the SB folds and the BB checks. Was limping with this hand under these conditions a good idea?
About 8 sb in the pot and 8 players see the flop, which comes 6d 3c 2d. I have a pair of 3’s and a good 2nd-nut flush draw. There is lots of straight potential, which I think is good, cause I may get action, on a flush. The BB bets, there is one fold and everyone else calls to me. I call, then the button raises. Now the button has been at the table for about 30 minutes, and seems to be playing tight. I have not seen any of his starting cards yet, although he won one pot without a show down. My immediate thought is two pair, but I can’t see him playing 63, 62 or 32. Maybe 32s on the button? Could be 54 for the made straight or 66 for a set, or he could be raising on a diamond flush draw. The BB folds, but everyone else calls, and I call too. The only thing I am really afraid of here is he holds Axd.
About 10.5 bb in the pot and 6 players see the turn, which is a 3h. I now have trip 3s, but I am not thrilled about it. Everyone checks to me. The button has the chips in his hand ready to bet, so I check to him half thinking about a check raise. Everybody calls. At this point with so many people calling the turn bet I am thinking my hand is weak now, but I have a strong draw. I just call. Should I have bet the turn? Should I have check raised?
About 16.5 bb in the pot and 6 players see the river, which is Jh. The draws have missed, but I still think my hand is weak. Everyone checks to me. I look at the button and his body language says he missed. I bet, and the button folds. I bet here because with the button looking like he would fold, I figured fish with weaker hands would call my bet. A couple of other players fold, then one of the early position fish check raises me! Everyone else folds. I have this sinking feeling in my stomach that I’m beat, but there is way too much money in the pot to fold, so I call. Was betting the river here a good idea? Should I have re-raised on the river?
Results to follow.
The fish had T3o and my K kicker won the pot for me.
I am still wondering what the button had. I suspect a flush draw, perhaps Axd. I'm also wonder what the heck everyone else had. While lots of people were seeing the flop in this game, this was the only hand all night were 6 players saw the river card.
I think you should have raised the flop. Your draw is probably good, so you might buy the button, might get a free turn card and you probably get enough callers to make it an immediate value bet. Perfect situation to raise.
On the turn, I cant see why you think your hand is not best at that point. Since you also have a very strong draw, it's either you protect your trips by betting out and hoping for the button to raise, or check-raise (if button bet). I think you played it way to passive here by check-calling. I think check-raising has the merits above betting out (especially since it "flows" with your playing style so far).
Nothing wrong with your riverbet. When check-raised I think just calling is the best option. Folding is NOT an option.
Regards
Besides your great use of tells, you played pretty poorly after the flop; and didn't outplay the suckers. K3s, then, is probably a folding hand.
Against this many flop players your pair+draw is a GREAT hand and well worth raising and capping. You are getting 6:1 and are less than a 2:1 dog to make 2 big pair or better. If KsUp will win, then you would be earning MORE than $3 for every $1 you invested; EV does not get better than that. Before Viagara they would sell videos of Pairs+Flush Draws.
On the turn there are lots of hands button can have that you can now beat (such as A6 or 99 or T9d), and if not (unless its a full-house) you are drawing to beat him. Even if you are going to win less than half the time (and I think this is NOT the case), the number of callers compels you to gamble it up.
On the river, heads up, I probably wouldn't 3-bet so don't worry about it.
Had you been willing to increase investment with this hand, then I would say these marginal K3s types of hands would be profitable against the suckers.
- Louie
I would have raised the flop. You have a nice draw on the flop and with that many players in, raise it up to build a pot. There's 14 cards that give you a good hand, get some money in there.
On the turn you have either a clear bet (hoping the button raises to thin the field) or a check raise. There is no reason to think you don't have the best. The button most likely has an over pair or a flush draw. If he flopped the str8, you have lots of redraws.
On the river I would just call the check raise.
Pre-flop: I think your call was OK. In very loose passive games, I would make the same call.
Flop: I think you played fine.
Turn: you definitely should have check-raised. You likely have the best hand (by FAR), and you still have the second nut flush draw. I think you should not have given the button so much credit, I think he simply had a draw (perhaps a flush draw, which may or may not be ace high) or perhaps a six, maybe he had 7c6c, or something like that.
River: Betting is fine, especially given your read on the button. I would make the crying call when raised. You may still have the best hand, despite the river check-raise. Your opponent might have a jack and just think you were trying to steal. About the only things that beat you are are full houses or a straight and you probably would have already heard from the straight on the turn if there was one (unless it was the button), so you certainly must pay it off, because the pot is so big. Folding would be unthinkable.
Dave in Cali
I just got done with a weekend long session at Canterbury and I'm a winning player but my weekend went very bad for my standards. I think one of my problems was my starting hands. I could outplay many of my opponents after the flop because a couple were very bad. I think I was playing to tight for such a loose game. So I guess the question is what kind of hands should I call with in middle and late position. should I call with A4 or K9 and 56o. I seen a lot of top pairs taking pots down. Any comments would be great thanks.
Sheck
In a very loose game, I would play hands that stand a good chance of making a BIG hand and winning a big pot. This would include suited aces and kings, and suited connectors and one gappers, and sometimes, when the conditions are favorable, unsuited connectors. I would NOT play Axo or Kxo EVER, these hands are even more junky in multiway pots than they are in heads up or three way pots. DITCH THEM. You want to play hands that can make a big hand and win a big pot when the game is really loose. Playing too tight will wind up costing you. Remember, when you have the best DRAW, and the pot is multiway, you are sucking equity out of the person with the BEST HAND. In a large multiway pot, I would much rather have As7s with a flop of Ks 7c 9s than I would like to have AcKd. Chances are that the As7s would be the MONEY favorite here, even though he does not currently have the best hand. With the As7s, I would hope that everyone stayed in and it got capped, because I would be making all kinds of profit every time this situation came up, even though sometimes I would not actually win the pot.
Dave in Cali
All of those hands you mentioned should be mucked in any position. In a loose game as you described you can play Ax suited from any position, Kx suited from late position, as well as loosening up by playing more suited connectors. Be careful, though, when flopping an ace or king when there aren't two of your suits on board as it is easy to get sucked in to losing a few extra bets when you are outkicked. I also fold unsuited hands such as KJo and QTo as these hands don't do very well against large numbers of people.
Read any good poker books lately?
What do you guys think of Lee Jones' book "Winning Low Limit Hold'Em", specifically his list of starting hands. Compared to other authors, his list is really tight! His philosophy seems to be, "If your opponents are loose (as is true in low limit games), wait until you have decent hands so that you can punish them when they limp in."
When you respond, please indicate whether you've read the book or not.
Could you repost this on the new Books/Software Forum. See the left hand column.
Thanks, Mason
Why is playing starting hands extra tightly costly, as some people on these boards have indicated? I mean, you'll make less money over time, because you'll be playing less, but when you are actually participating, your chances of winning, I imagine, is somewhat greater than if you limp in with more marginal hands, like K9o, or 78o. Or what about K, 10o in early positon? (these are just examples, feel free to come up with your own in your response if you feel it will highlight your point better.)
It would be hard to imagine anybody here suggesting that folding KT UTG is "playing tight". Playing KT UTG is "suicide" ..err.. "chipicide". I think "playing very tight" is something like group 1 hands early, group 2 hands middle, and group 3 hands late.
Yes, playing particularly selectively will increase your chances when you do play but since is less often it will also reduce your over-all variance.
Not playing the marginal hands, of which there are many, is a pretty good idea for many players.
- Louie
In a full ring game I probably wouldn't play any of the hands you posted from any position expect the bb or sb if it was 2/3 of the bb... maybe 78o with lots of callers from the button if the blinds looked like they wouldn't raise.
Derrick
Vladimir,
What you should generally strive to do is not "play tight" or "play loose" generally, but to "play right" for the game conditions. For some games (loose passive games) you will loosen up a little. For other games (such as loose agressive games) you will really tighten up. I know the tendency for me when I was learning the game was a quest I had to "develop the optimal playing strategy." What I finally got through my thick head is that there is no optimal playing strategy, there is only the optimal strategy for that particular game that you are in, and it can vary widely from game to game. I always was trying to memorize which hands to fold and which to play from early position, for instance, and once memorized I would always play or fold certain hands in early position, regardless of what kind of game I was in. I was so intent on remembering which hands I should play or fold, that I wasn't even paying attention. Needless to say, I did not do well.
I think that is a real and natural tendency. As new players we are searching for a breakthrough, a strategy that will always work. But there is no such strategy. You have to vary your strategy depending on the type of game you are in at the moment, and often, vary it widely.
Examples: If I am in early position in a game where there is lots of calling but usually no raise before the flop (loose passive), I will play small pairs and AXs and medium connectors, particularly if it is passive on the flop also. Conversely, if I were in a loose aggressive game where there were usually raises before every flop, I would never play these hands in early position. When I was learning I just had it in my mind to either "always fold small pairs in early position," or "always play small pairs in early position," and I would faithfully adhere to this no matter what kind of game I was in. Then I would be mystified when I did well in one kind of game, and poorly in another, when I was, after all, using my "winning" strategy. This led me to say stuff like, "poker is all luck," etc.
Similarly, if I am in a game where I have weak tight players acting after me, I will raise preflop with J-J quite a bit of the time in early position. But in a loose agressive game where I know I can't make them fold if I raise, then I just call. Again, if I adhere to a static strategy with certain hands in certain position, irregardless of the type of game I am in, then I will always play J-J the same way in early position, I will either always raise with it or always call with it or always fold with it. There is no "right way," it always depends on the type of game you are in and what kind of opponents you are up against.
It took me a long time to get this through my head, I was so obsessed with wanting to just memorize a proper basic strategy, and I didn't want to believe that things were so fluid and changeable. But they are. Ironically, once you understand this and can recognize how to tailor your strategy to the game conditions, it is really pretty simple (hand selection, anyway). After the flop is another story.
I hope I am not misunderstanding your question, but I could see some of my previous confusion in your post. It sounds like you are struggling to find "the right way" to play, and stick with it, just like I was. The right mixture between too tight and too loose, so you will have just the right mix. The important thing to remember is that there is no static "right way," it all depends on the conditions of the game that you are currently in. You must adjust the relative tightness or looseness of your play so that it is optimal FOR THAT GAME. And what is optimal for one type of game may be totally incorrect for another type.
I hope this helps. It helped me a lot to read the section on "Playing in Loose Games" in Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players by S&M. If you read the beginning chapters on early, middle and late position in the same book, you will notice S&M talk about hands and how to play them with constant qualifiers of "unless..." or, "only if...", etc. This reflects the necessity of never having a set strategy of looseness or tightness, but always adjusting it to the conditions of your current game. -Tim
A-10, K-10, Q-10. I play them as cheaply as possible. I dump them without a second thought up front. Calling up front and being raised from behind is disasterous for these hands. Remember the rake. You have to beat him, too. The only way to beat Mr. Rake is to play tight. I avoid the trouble hands because I tend to get hooked to the expensive streets with top pair and mediocre kicker. Too tight is bad at higher levels. At low limit, very few players will actually pay attention to your play and adjust. I couldn't believe that people would continue against me with the same garbage that they were showing everyone else. I would literally sit and fold for an hour straight sometimes, then come into a pot with both guns blazing and get 4 or 5 callers. Keep playing tight at this level and don't forget that you have to beat the rake and toke aspect, too.
Good post, Tim.
I also would like to add that poker for a beginner is analogous to a jet pilot. Flying in a simulator is no substitute to flying in a real one with 100 people on board. In other words there is no substitute for actual hours of play. You have to adjust accordingly. Just my thoughts.
4-8 guys ini the hand were solid...usually bet premium preflop.....
im in EP with KK ....UTG calls , i raise, MP calls , LP raises, UTG calls, i cap....
flop comes...J J x.......
UTG checks , i bet, MP raises, LP raises, UTG caps...i fold..
and so goes the turn and river.....
ends up MP had a J ? the reason i folded was because when the action got like that on this table, there was usually quality hands out...they would only raise and reraise with premium...
i figured with that much action on preflop and turn, someone must have had a J, AA and at least a possible AK...which would only give me 1 out...i believe i saved quite a bit with that fold, however if a K came on the river i woulda been beside myself.
hence the AA and other KK really paid dearly....
i thought they overplayed a little, personally, which gave me the info on the turn that they had overcards to the J or a J in their hand...
whatcha think....good fold?
The chances that 3 players will raise you after you demonstrated your pre-flop big-pair is almost nill. Even if these were maniacs you probably should still fold.
"...if a K came on the river i woulda been beside myself." NnnnnnnnOOOOooooo.
You really MUST get over this after-the-fact results analysis. You know you made a good fold and this decision is a good one regardless of the cards that actually came. Such post-regrets can only hurt your decision making processes next time.
- Louie
Least you dont marry a dead hand. 1st off Mr. UTG check-CAPPED it so hes got a Jack.....to me the way he played his AA was amature at best, that much action you shouldnt be thinking about "hiding" the fact you got AA pre-flop but he did and still cost em. You knew any J and AA beats ya and even if you were wrong any other KK will chop the pot if you both won so your decision was only looking to pay you HALF of whats out there if you made a mistake (not that it could of even been a mistake) to fold. Sounds to me like your in a good game.....thinking that far ahead is important and the way the hand was played by Mr. LP KK just shows you that they just cant dump a looser hand when its obvious whats happend.
What I would like to know is what was the guy with the J even doing in there. Think your "solid" players arent quite as strong as you. Either way Id put you as a MONSTER favorite in that game your playing. And having 2 KKs and an AA in the same hand doesnt happen that often, it still can and you knew it. Fourtunatley for you it wont happen again for a while so you saved some of your chips for the next KK you get........Good Luck! Especailly if you got a guy with a J calling!!!
BTW Where is this game at your playing?
the game was in federal way, washington....
sorry i cant remember what the other card was....i wanna say it was an A suited but i cant be sure...
i didnt say they were great players...but usually when they 'raised' they had premium. especially when reraising thanks for the post...
b
Folded a winner in a big pot in a $6/$12 seven card stud game on PP and am wondering was I supposed to call on the river ?
The hand played as follows:
Semi-loose aggressive player raised on third street with a Q and three players including myself called I had Ad7d9d. Another Q was already out. One other diamond was out.
On fourth street the cards fell:
P1:HH - Q7 P2:HH - 8d9h P3: xxxx Me: Ad7d - 9d3d
P1 bet, P2 called, P3 folded and I called.(I easily could have raised here but I didn't)
Fifth street came:
P1: HH - Q7Q P2: HH - 8d9hAh Me: Ad7d - 9d3dAc
The queens bet and P1 called and I called. Again a raise here might not have been a bad idea but I flinched looking at the paired door card. P1 was raising on third street with as little as two unrelated overcards and although I was far from convinced he had a set I couldn't rule it out. P1 would probably have reraised even if he didn't have the set and I didn't want to lay down my flush draw. P2 had not played many hands but I figured he was probably on a straight or flush draw since the paired door card wasn't enough to make him fold.
Sixth street came:
P1: HH - Q7Q2 P2: HH - 8d9hAhJd Me: Ad7d - 9d3dAc5s
Again P1 bet and P2 and I called.
I missed my flush draw on the river but picked up a 9 for two pair - aces and nines. P1 bet and P2 raised. The pot was about $150. I looked at P2's hand and concluded he must have hit his straight or flush draw (even though many of his cards were out - the Q's, 7's and diamonds I figured he must have a heart flush.) In any event I still could be beat by the possible set of Q's so I folded and P1 called. P2 showed ace high and P1 won with two pair queens over twos. P2's raise makes absolutely no sense to me and I definitely had a bad taste in my mouth after this hand. Any ideas as to what was going on here ?
Unless P1 and P2 were colluding, P2 bluffed you out of the pot, and was attempting to do the same with P1. He accomplished half the battle...
(BTW - this should probably be posted in "Other Poker Games". This forum is primarily for Hold'em.)
n/t
Sometimes you just wind up folding a pot to a stupid raise, there ain't much you can do about it when tyhis happens. Bluff-raises are so rare however, that you really don't need to continually worry about such things. Once I was playing Holdem, and flopped the second nut straight. It was capped on the flop, capped on the turn. I thought I might be losing to the nut straight, or that the other opponent may have flopped a set of queens. A third player called all the way. On the river, A third spade hit, apparently completing the flush. The first player bet and the caller raised. I folded, figuring to either be beat by the nut straight, or more likely, by the flush which was just hit by the river raiser. Well, the river raiser had Q7o and made two pair on the river, the original raiser had QQ and flopped a set. I folded the winner (over a 200$ pot). soon after this, I left, too pissed off to play well anymore. You can make "peace of mind calls" when this type of thing happens, or you can just accept the fact that, as a good player, you will occasionally fold the winner. It's just GOING to happen, not much you can do about it. Try to let it happen as little as possible.
In my opinion, the best way to avoid this would have been to raise somewhere in the hand. I would have raised with the four flush, and probably would have raised when the ace hit as well. You need to test people, especially when they MIGHT have trips, but one of their cards is out, and find out early if they are serious or full of bull-pucky. Had you taken control of the hand earlier, you probably wouldn't have had such a difficult river decision.
Dave in Cali
i agree. if you had shown aggression somewhere in the hand, P2 might not have decided that you could be bluffed out. Aces up is a calling hand in stud on the river, unless you can be absolutely sure you are beat.
Without counting, someone who will raise with 2-unrelated high cards or better is a HUGE favorite not to have a case DOOR card pair, and a big favorite not to have any pair at all. Your 3-flush isn't good enough to raise but its close. Your 4-flush overcard is a comfortable favorite against 2 players with pairs, and a HUGE favorite when A-high MAY be the best hand right now, which seems reasonably likely. With your reasonably live 4-flush+Aces, on 5th you are a favorite against QsUp and a small straight draw and a HUGE favorite if your Aces are best right now, which they probably are. Things got worse on 6th, but it still looks good to me.
Golly, when WILL you raise?
Yes, it would be tough to call the river. P2's raise on the river was a great move against someone who probably has only Qs and will fold for the raise, and with the timid player behind him. It would have worked except that Qs made two-pair. You need to make a mental note about this player.
- Louie
Just a routine check-up.
1. AQs 2nd utg. I raise one limper, fold to BB who calls. Flop 239 w/ two of my suit. BB bets, we both call. Turn Q. BB bets, utg calls, I raise, BB 3bets, limper folds, I call. River blank. BB bets, I call.
2. QJs mid position. I limp after two limpers, 1 limper behind, BB checks. Flop 926 w/ two of my suit. BB checks, first limper bets, next drops, I call, all fold to BB who check raises, first limper re-raises, I call two more, BB caps, and we both call. Turn A not of my suit. BB bets, limper raises, BB & I call. River 8, completing my flush. BB bets, limper raises, BB & I call.
Comments?
1. I'd think BB limped in with a low pair and turned trips...something he wouldn't play for two bets cold but it's worth saving the blind. He never backed down from putting out the initial bet. but I'd call the bet at the river to find out.
(- I did that to a guy once when I had a pair of 9's - I was already in for one and the guy who raised had won a massive pot, so I felt like he could be trying to steamroller me...I called and got the exact same board, 239 rainbow - I raised him 3 or 4 times after the flop and turn till he ran at the river.)
-----------------
2. After I cried foul for collusion? (heh heh) - You're playing someone on the BB who is either
A. bluffing
B. someone with a good hand who is a moron for checkraising the flop
C. someone on a straight draw who wanted a free turn card
D. He could also have a made 2 pair or trips and is trying like hell to drive out the people drawing
I'd suspect D as my first choice, with C and B afterwards. It's not A cause he called on the river, which a smart bluffer wouldn't do...he'd be out of there.
If I added this right...you're still calling 6-1 pot odds even after the reraise on the flop for your flush draw and I wouldn't expect anyone on a draw for a similar flush to kick up the pot that much, (unless they made a pair or something with one of the unsuited cards, which means you probably have higher cards then them) - so I'd stay in there. But that's just me.
1)This one's rather easy...I'd put the BB on a low pkt. pair completeing his set of 3's or 2's
2) this on is tricky though. My first guess would be to put BB on 2 pair, and the limper on a set of 9's. But then why would the limper reraise on the river, knowing there's a good chance one of you two were on the flush draw? So I think the limper might actually have the Ace high flush, holding A9s.
1. Seems pretty routine. I would have raised the flop with my nut flush draw, hoping for a free turn card and to take the initiative. You might have been three bet which would have probably made your play on later streets easier. Just calling when you get a piece of the flop in hold 'em is seldom correct, especially when you have position. The way you played it seems OK. I would have to know the player to decide whether to call the river. I bet you lost to a set.
2. This had was badly misplayed, IMO. The flop is OK for you but not worth all the heat. Your initial call is OK but when it comes back to you 2 more bets you really need to fold. You are going to have to hit a flush to win, your flush draw is not to the nuts and there are probably multiple redraws to a full house out. The relative weakness of your hand is demonstrated by the fact that you hit a flush and did not even feel comfortable raising on the river. I bet you lost to a higher flush.
Call less, raise more.
KJS
Thanks for the discussions on Vegas card rooms. Anyone know where to play in Reno?
So, after busting out of the weekly tournament two spots out of the money, I sit down in a $3/$6 game to recoup my buy-in. The line-up is very juicy, with a few other tournament knockouts tossing in their chips while lamenting their horrid luck, some just plain bad players, and only one other vaguely competent player.
I'm getting cards and flopping well, so I'm up maybe 80, and getting a fair amount of respect when this hand comes up...
PREFLOP
I'm in middle position with AcTc. One weak limper to me, I raise. Cutoff and button cold-call, and both the big blind and the limper call.
5 players, 10sb in the pot.
FLOP: Td Ts 2c
I bet, and only the button calls.
2 players, 6bb in the pot.
TURN: 7c
I bet, button raises.
My hand at this point is a monster. I have trips, top kicker and the nut flush draw. The only credible hands that the button might have to beat me are 22 or 77, but from how he plays, I think he would have raised his 22 on the flop. T7 or T2 are very remote. However, he might have any number of second best hands, or may be trying to push me off of my "obvious" overcards.
So, do I call, hoping to save money when I'm behind, but still collect money when he bets the worse hand/bluffs on the end, or do I 3-bet, and punish his lesser hands, while risking an unlikely cap?
Results to follow...
Dave Shaw
When he holds the other Ten he would (almost) surely pay you off if you 3-bet. He could be bluff-raising a good draw (flushdraw, maybe 89 or 8c9c), with what he also will probably call the 3-bet, but not a river bet if he dont hit (and you have his flushdraw covered with your hand). When he's totally bluffing he would not call a turn 3-bet, but you might induce a bluff when you check the river. A 7 will probably fold the 3-bet, but also check the river behind you if you call (so no real difference there IMO). He would probably cap with 22 and 77. Is he capable of capping the turn with less than a full-house here? If he's not too likely to cap with lesser hands than a full-house, than I think 3-betting is the option, since he most likely will call the 3-bet with draws, if he has a ten he will also pay you off, and it's (from your description of the player) not too likely he has a boat.
Note that when it wasnt heads up and you had more players on the turn who called your initial bet, than calling might be the better option.
Regards
The play I made at the table was to 3-bet. The button folded, so evidently he was taking a shot at me.
Upon thinking about it on the way home, however, I was wondering whether the bets I save when I'm behind, in addition to the extra bets I gain when he bets on the river with a lesser hand or as a bluff, outweigh the bets I collect by simply three-betting and charging him to draw thin.
What do you guys think?
I think you're thinking a bit result oriented here, since the only hand you would probably (but not likely, he could very well check the river behind you) have gotten one more bet from is a pure bluff. From other hands you would have gotten more by 3-betting (draws and weaker T). If he has a boat you would save one BB, but since a T or a draw is more likely, you win more times one BB.
Regards
I think that's a great question. One that really doesn't have an answer but needs to be contemplated so that wise decisions can be made in the future. 3/6 is kind of a scary game because the other players may hold ANYTHING -- nothing strange about seeing someone turn over T2o. I had a similar hand last week in a 6/12 game. I thought my post deserved more discussion than it got. May be everyone thought it was pretty cut and dry.
Here is a link to the post:
Comments would be appreciated.
Thanks,
-Michael
You played it fine. Had he had the trip tens, he would have paid you off all the way. You couldn't have lost to anything except a boat, and even then, you still had at least 3 outs going into the river, if not more.
I really should wait until the morning to post some of these hands ... when I'm tired, I sometimes don't think as clearly as I should. Of course, I remember more of the details immediately after the session...
I agree with my choice of play at the table, as do all of you guys. As Derrick Ashworth pointed out, I'm at least a 2 to 1 favourite to have the best hand. So by 3-betting, I'm picking up around 0.33 bb per hand. My opponent would have to be a virtual bluffing station to bluff often/aggressively enough to merit the smooth-call in the hopes of earning more from him while cutting down on the variance.
Dave in Cali makes the good point that my flush draw is diminished in value somewhat by the fact that if I'm already beat, those outs are dead anyways. The only value it adds is if my opponent is drawing and hits while I also improve.
Thank you all for your comments,
Dave Shaw
Hi again Dave,
What about the bets you save later on, because he decides not to take a shot at you and put you to a tough decision, because this time was so little fun for him?
I like your play, Good luck,
Bob T.
nice safe board with 5 callers....i wouldve check called the flop. trips with top kicker, maybe let them catch a pair.
bet/raise the turn, they may have only put ya on a flush draw then.
if someone makes a fh on the turn its a longshot...this was a great slowplay hand.
b
I disagree. The check-call, bet out move with a paired board, rainbow board is just too obvious at LL. I think it has almost no value anymore, unless someone vastly improves. When someone does it against me I get ready to fold ASAP. No, I don't this this opens me up to getting shots taken at me. Watch how many times it happens in a session and see if you can read the bettor's hand. You'll see how played out it is.
In this situation, when you are the pre-flop raiser and you hit trips you have built in deception. People will often think you are betting out because you raised and could have AK, AQ, JJ, even 99. This is shown by the fact that someone bluffed the slowplay move in this instance, thinking Dave did not have a T.
KJS
the reason i would have checked is #1 gravy lineup your up against. if you let some of these guys catch a high pair they may call 1 more bet. let the button bet out. sounds like he would have. your call may let someone else call..
then check raise the river. if noone else calls the flop but you....yeah then bet out or check raise.
remember the lineup...usually side games in tourneys are 'juicy' and when theyre lamenting their luck, they could be just slightly tilting. after all, they are "tossing in their chips". and with just bad players in...why not?
i think he played great on the turn with the reraise, and collected an extra bet anyway. i think the hand could have been played both ways....you brought up a good point about the deception factor. i think both ways are good.
but i think with this lineup, i woulda checked the flop.
about it being over played, sounds like a great way of bluffing then...turn it around on em.
You've given us something to think about...
there may be something to be gained should this individual hold an A and spike his two pair on the river. I wouldn't consider this a posibility if the hand in question didn't have an A kicker. Reason: AX is usually (?) played more often than KX.
Take it upstairs.
No one is putting you on a 10 when you raise preflop, not with your image. He could easily have 10-ellaneous and assume his hand is best.
If by some miracle you are behind to a full house, you do have some outs. However, I am sure you are ahead here, probably to something like J-10s.
I haven't read the results or other responses yet.
I would 3-bet almost every time with this hand. He could have an overpair, an underpair, a lower flush draw, and a lot of 3-6 players will call a 3-bet with worse hands than yours. Even if you're behind, you have three or four outs that can win you two or three river bets.
At 3-6, if you don't try and pump up the pot with hands like this you're leaving a lot of money on the table.
I would 3-bet, as it seems very very unlikely that you are behind on the turn or that he has more than 3 outs against you on the river.
One question though: why raise pre-flop? You have nut-flush hole cards and the raise will only chase out marginal hands that are financing your draw. It also is probably narrowing the field to A's with a better kicker than yours. Was this done purely to keep the other players guessing about your pre-flop raising standards?
gl, Lance
Hi Lance,
My reasons for the preflop raise:
1) I likely have the best hand.
2) There is only one limper in front of me, and he plays badly.
3) Owing to my tight, winning image in this game, I stand a good chance of isolating the limper and playing heads-up or three-way with position on the field.
4) Even if I do get cold-callers behind, I don't mind so much, as my hand does play well multiway.
5) It adds deceptive value to my play.
6) I am able to get away from my hand if an Ace flops and there is significant action.
Certainly this is not a play I make every time I pick up ATs in mid-position. However, in this situation, I feel it is a very +EV play, and would make it again in a heartbeat.
Thanks Dave,
I'm a newbie and when I see a "non-standard" play like this, I'm curious about the strategy behind it. Thanks for the lesson....
gl, Lance
So, do I call, hoping to save money when I'm behind, but still collect money when he bets the worse hand/bluffs on the end, or do I 3-bet, and punish his lesser hands, while risking an unlikely cap?
I would put him on a weaker T, 22, or 77, or the same hand (but you have redraws). He may also have picked up a weaker flush draw somehow.
Legit. weaker T's are KT, QT, JT (every LL player's favorite hand), T9s, T8s...
4-KT's, 4-QT's, 4-JT's, 1T9ss, 1-T8's. I think you are more then a 2:1 favorite to be ahead here and I would raise away. If he has 22, you can hit an A or T, or 7, If he has 77 you must hit an A or T.
Just My Thoughts,
derrick
Reraise his ass…!!! He is pulling the classic "wait till the turn to raise" maneuver on you, and he is BEHIND. Three bet him without question. It's not that likely that he has a boat, and unless he does, you have to be ahead! Ironically, your flush draw is pretty much meaningless, because he can't have a flush or a straight, and if he doesn't already have you beat (which could only be with a boat), then he is way behind anyway, and can only draw at the boat to beat you. Still, I don't believe that you are behind here, so reraise him. Then, throw caution to the wind, and bet the river too. If he raises again, make the crying call….
Dave in Cali
dave, why can't the opponent have a worse flush? suited rags get played all the time in low limit, even 3-6. you know that. i can see that happening. a call here and then a check on the river may get him to bet it again, in which case, no matter what card comes up, raise him again. don't 4-bet on the river though. only call if he reraises. depending on whether you think he will bet the river if you check you should consider a bet on the river. maybe even a slight pause before the bet, (some see this as a sign of weakness, and will raise it, then you can 3 bet or call depending on the situation.)
I probably would have just called assuming I still have the best hand. The reason I call is because I want the maximum amount of money out of this hand. If he folds to my 3-bet I think I could have gotten more money out of him. So I would probably call with intentions of check-raising the river if I like the card that hits. If he bluff raised you then I'm sure he will take a stab at the river giving you an extra BB. If you're behind you lose the same amount of money if you woulda 3-bet him capped and you called him down. But if he was bluffing you get an extra BB from him. I think this strategy may work..... Gonna go check results. Any thoughts on this strategy?
SS
.
Hi Dave,
When you raised preflop, it was a small pot, and and it wasn't going to get much bigger.Most of the hands that beat you, are ones that I wouldn't want to play in a small pot for two bets. I think that the two most likely hands are an overpair to the board, or maybe KQ or QJ of clubs, or some suited ten that you out kickk, unless this guy is some kind of maniac (oh wait, you play in california, T2 might be possible if it was sooted) he might also have played 98 of clubs.
So, he's either betting for value, and probably behind, or making some kind of semibluff raise, which many of his percieved outs are counterfeited by your hand. If it was a value bet (he has either 2 or three outs), and you reraise, then bet the river and get called, you would win 4 bets. If you don't raise, he might check behind you, and you'll only win two. If its a semibluff raise, you definately want to raise, because this is your last chance to charge him for his draw, and if he gets there with clubs, you might make two bets on the river also. ( I think if a club come on the river, you bet out, and if you get raised, maybe you just have to call, even though I think your still ahead, but I would be willing to listen to other arguments).
If he's ahead, with T7, T2, 77, or 22, which I think are all fairly unlikely (but I don't know the player), you have 3 or 4 clean outs, and as many as 6 outs for a possible chop, or an unsure win.
So if he 4 bets it, I call, and pray for a ten or ace on the river.
going to go look for results now, good luck,
Bob T.
With the action pre-flop, you might want to ask yourself if the Button could be holding 98 or 98s?
Certainly, we all have seen our raises from MP called by much worse hands than that. And if the loose player is gambling it up, he'll call your flop bet without thinking twice.
The thing I want to ask, is a loose gambler like this creative enough to semi-bluff an open-ended draw into a paired board? Could this player be a maniac?Probably not (he folded)....but when you see T5o drag a big pot from time to time, you wonder about hands like this.
Is it possible to beat the rake for one BB an hour in a $1-$2 game where the max is $1, and 25 cents is raked after each increment of $5? Im specifically referring to the games at Paradise. I've only been studying for about 6 months and would like to sharpen my game before I move up. Is this a good idea or should I at least start with 2-4.
ive never played the money games at Paradise. (i don't know if i trust online games yet, plus i don't have a credit card to use...). however, a 1-2 game should be pretty loose, and if you play against those chumps halfway decently, you should be able to earn possibly even more than 1BB/hour. i am comparing your question to the 1-2 games i played in California. loose as a goose, a good number of capped family pots, 3 or 4 hands at the showdown is standard, any A is played, possibly even to the river trying to catch that A. most pocket pairs see the river, if not the showdown, regardless of improvement. these kinds of games are definitely beatable. especially if you learn how to play against each opponent individually, and keep that in mind. less bluffing, and pushing strong hands, etc. bet your draws more. raise preflop less, AA KK QQ AK only. fold garbage preflop, but loosen up your standards a little bit. if the board pairs, it is more likely to give somebody a set at a low limit than a higher limit, no matter what rank the pair is. if a 3 flush flops, don't necessarily be afraid, but know that they will draw to the fourth flush card with A on down to like 9 of that suit. give more credit to the boards that make a wheel possible, because people tend to play A-baby quite often. these are some tips you need to know to beat these games, but they are usually pretty beatable. if they tighten up a lot, it might be a lot tougher.
From personal experience, I can tell you that the rake at $1-$2 is definitely beatable. In fact, it is much more beatable than at $2-$4. The players are much better at the higher limit, it seems to be the cutoff for terrible players and decent ones, so there are a few of us who make the rounds at $1-$2, and make much more doing so than at $2-$4. Plus, I remember a post earlier where the mathematics of the $1-$2 game made it one of the easiest rakes to beat on PP, but I am uncertain of who wrote this, so I can't verify that.
Mike
3-6 Hold 'Em at the Taj. Game is interesting as it is very passive before the flop and after with little raising (I was the only one who had check-raised in about 4 hours, and pre-flop raising was rare). Also raises btf were respected particularly under the gun. I'm UTG and pick up pocket Tens. I normally would call and hope for a set in a typical loose 3-6 game, but here there was no guarantee I wouldn't be heads up with the big blind. I raise. Opponent immediately to my left 3-bets me. Everyone folds. This opponent is somewhat tricky and has a weak game before the flop and a semi-strong one after. I call. Flop comes J-2-8 rainbow. I check-raise. He calls. Turn is a 6. I bet, he calls. River is another 2. I check (I figure if I bet, I only get called if I'm beat so I try to induce a bluff). He hesitates and bets. I call. Results to follow. Comments appreciated.
Jeff
My seemingly sane opponent turned over pocket 4's and I took the pot with 10's up. He said when I checked he thought I had AK. Nice pot.
Jeff
I think you play the hand well. c-r on the flop is fine.
you played it pretty well. a check raise slows him down, which puts you in the driver's seat. this is good because if you bet the flop, he either raises with a decent J, folds his 44, or calls down a questionable J. if you check-raise, you are now worried because he called you. but you are pretty sure he could be calling you down for other reasons now, like having 44 and putting you on AK. you had to follw through with betting through the river, though, because a check is one less opportunity for a J to fold, while a bet charges morons with 44 the max. i like your play on this hand.
Do you really think he would fold any jack in this situation? I checked the river because I reasoned that I would (most likely) only be called or raised if I was beaten. By checking, I save money if he has a hand, and could get him to make a desperate bluff at the pot. What do you think?
Jeff
i don't know that he WOULD fold a J. that is up to you to determine. but he CAN'T fold the J if you don't bet, that is the point of my post.
Your play against THIS opponent contradicts your description of the table. If there is VERY little pre-flop raising and someone 3-bets, well this isn't rocket science.
But since it worked you need to consider why THIS player put a move on YOU.
- Louie
I think you got a mullet who was hallucinating he was a barracuda.
I was wondering how exactly do people go about "examining" the players at their table to come to conclusions as to whether they are tight, loose, etc., much less how those players play certain hands post-flop. Should I try keeping my eye on everybody at the same time? Or should I examine one person at a time for like 10 minutes or something and then move on to the next player? Typically how long should it take someone (at a loose 3-6 game) to be able to comfortably "know" their players? 30 min? 60 min? Seeing as how each player only shows down their cards 1-2 an hour, it seems to me it would take like 4 hours until you've seen enough hands to be able to definitely conclude how a certain player plays.
1. How often do they call preflop is an indicator of how Loose/Tight they are.
2. What hands have they showed down.
3. How do they play come hands (drawing hands).
4. Do they play for gutshots.
5. How aggressive are they with top pair, with middle pair...
6. Have they been caught bluffing
Some people you know how they play right away, some people change so much you will never know.
Derrick
You can't get a conclusive read on everyone in no time at all, but you watch the action depending on who's in the hand. Watching the showdowns is important, but noticing that Joe Schmoe enters the pot nine times in a three hour period, but never makes the showdown, tells you something just as important. Likewise, if you see someone that enters the pot 25 times in the first hour of play, and is still in the pot at the showdown 80% of the time, but folds almost every time when the aggressor shows his hand, you can probably conclude he is a calling station.
Also, listen to conversations. Some players will TELL YOU EXACTLY HOW THEY PLAY, sometimes with uncanny accuracy.
Watch for tells and/or telegraphs. Telegraphs are MUCH more useful than tells. A telegraph is when someone starts getting chips ready before it is their turn, and then they bet and/or raise when it gets to them. While some players are tricky, many more simply can't wait for the action to get to them, thus they give off reliable indicators of what they intend to do. LOOK LEFT. This is WHY. Some players have such reliable telegraphs, that I actually move seats to INTENTIONALLY get them on my left, because I know what they are going to do before they even do it. Gives me an edge.
Other things often give away a player's style too. For instance, an excessively neat and organized stack of chips may indicate a fairly conservative player, while a very messy stack may indicate a reckless and wild player.
Determining how people play takes both experience and attentiveness. However, with practice, you should be able to pretty much size up a table within an hour or so. Experience is the key.
Dave in Cali
Awesome! Thanks alot for the tips. Are there any tell tale signs that a player is pro (so that I can stay far far away!)? In other words, if I see a table with 3 older gentlemen, all wearing sunglasses and hats, is that a good indication that they know what they're doing?
I usually play at Commerce here in L.A., and was wondering if you knew from experience what percent of the players there (at the 3-6 level) are suckers, decent, or sharks? Are there any specific times of the day or days of the week where more "fish" come out to play? I've personally witnessed that during sports events (specifically the finals for hockey or basketball) a lot more people come out that normally wouldn't. At my table alone, 3 people were watching the TV more than paying attention to their cards, which explains one of the few times where I won.
I guess I'm just trying to get inside the head of the typical "regular" at Commerce. .
You won't be able to get an automatic read on everyone once you sit down. Most of the valuable info you'll get on player tendencies is when you're not involved in the hand. I suggest keeping tabs on two or three players for at least an hour, usually the ones with the most money in front of them. How many hands do they play in a rotation? Do they raise often or rarely? Do they ever checkraise or reraise? Do they try to catch when the flop doesn't hit them? Do they fold a lot if the hand doesn't go exactly the way they want, or do they stick with it? Do they handle their chips with confidence, or do they fumble to call a bet? Do they prepare their bet/call/raise before it's their action (the mentioned telegraph tell?) If they get to the showdown and are shown top pair/weak kicker or middle pair, do they win or do they muck? If they win, what did they win with? Try to work the hand backwards to see what they're willing to stick around with. Are they winning with legit hands or do they catch perfect on the river? If they muck, was there any draw hand they could have had that missed? Do they get caught bluffing a lot? Are they playing for fun or for money, based on their attitude at the table? Does the player typically play in higher limits than what he's playing at the moment? These are many questions you can ask about the players at your table that will clue you in on their playing style, ability, and understanding of the game.
Many players are easily pigeonholed (at least at my 4-8 games.) Others vary widely in their playing style over sessions, and even during sessions....these types are more dangerous, especially if they can consciously switch gears on you (one of my favorite weapons.) The more you play and watch these players, the more you'll be able to categorize their ability and playing style. One friend I know keeps scouting reports on quite a few of the regulars at our casino. Frequency counts aren't very meaningful, but quality of starting hands, tendencies to raise, and plays in certain situations (always checkraises with two pair, never bets a draw until it's made, etc.) are valuable. His notes are generally accurate (and occasionally extremely accurate.) If you like, you can do the same thing. Just takes time at the tables.
Novice,
This is one of the best questions I have seen on this board - thanks for asking it - and thanks to all those who contributed answers - most helpful
What I do is attempt to always follow the action around the table. This basically keeps me aware of how and what is transpiring instead having my eyes wonder around looking at some hot babe. You can also look ahead of the action to see what people do in preparation for the action coming around. Sometimes on the flop I'll watch the opponents rather than look at the flop itself when it comes down. Sometimes you'll catch a reaction that is severe when you're looking directly at the person, but is easily not noticed if you're not paying attention (especially when someone flops a nut straight). For me, it's very tricky and there's too much information ... it's very hard. But you'll be rewarded when you save many bets because of what you've noticed. And you'll watch poor players call and raise someone who you already suspect has made their hand. And when you're right ... it's satisfying.
One thing I notice a lot at the card tables esp. 3-6 is the way people toss or "set" in chips. Last weekend I played with a guy who always launched his chips high in the air on the river, and everytime he got even called he through his cards in. It became obvious he was trying to represent a good hand and buy pots on the river. I also played with a guy who kind of pounded his chips out in front with a little authority trying to act tough and he could never beat top pair. Check these things out. One last things. When people stare at the flop, they usually have nothing(Mike Caro)! This i find is very true.
Sheck
This is why it wouldn't hurt to always make your bet/raises in the same fashion. Whenever I sit down, I try to make a mental note to either toss chips (or place neat stacks) every time the action comes to me. That way, the observant players at the table will have nothing to pick up on...
Occasionally, in small pots, I'll call them at the river just to see what they have...Expensive, but if you don't call and see their cards, then you'll never know..Just keep an eye on the cards...if you see someone get a bad beat...remember who played it and what they played with...(he raised J-2 suited preflop? On the button? Why?) - Did he bet and raise into a flush draw? and it wasn't the nuts? Good to know for the future...I'll call to the river if a third of his suit doesn't come next time
Reading a player's style of play is fairly easy, and has been answered in various replies to your thread...tells are a lot more complicated and vague. Here's a couple of examples.
Last night (in a game that has been overly analyzed to death on a post further up) - I noticed two things about wild players I was dealing with.
1...one guy who raised a lot with bottom pair and higher would look at his cards a lot if he had nothing - trying to find ANYTHING to give him a reason to draw...good time to raise, as far as I'm concerned..
2. Another player would have a lot of fun going 3? 6? raise? - and get really chatty when he bet...Usually there was a pair on the board...so the question is...does he have trips or two pair. Twice I had a pocket pair higher then the board, so this is important. And when he talked a lot and got all inquisitive...he had the trips and I left (heh heh...once he was kinda quiet and only had the two pair, and I had trips with the bad kicker from my BB but he rivered another one and got a full house 10's over 3's that beat my 3's over 10's. ..DOH!!!)
It's funny...but when people like that are acting tough, they usually have nothing...but if they're going "I've got a piece of that" - and being chatty and fun and joking...they tend to have the NUTS! - and they're trying to put you at ease calling when they're setting you up...look for that.
3. Something else to look for is someone showing their cards to a player who has mucked...that usually means good cards or good draws. And they'll give each other a look when it does or don't come thru that will give you confidence to make a decision to stay or not. When in doubt on that one, though. - muck. People generally don't show folks bluffs.
Last night, 3 hearts fall on the flop...I've got top pair 9's, and I'm the last to act, so everyone checks and I bet to see who raises and comes over the top. Lots of these guys are bluffing and drawing to 4 hearts, and a lot of them don't have hearts. If they raise, I get out...saves me from being bluffed.
Anyway, I get 3 callers, and on the turn, a 4th heart - and I see a guy show his cards to a girl at the table. I muck - he bets. He gets a Reraise and he calls.
Well, the Reraise had the nut flush, but the guy who showed had two pair drawing to a full house - and I was pretty much out of there before the bet/reraise cause I saw him show her his cards. He's not bluffing with nothing (like they sometimes do) cause he's willing to share his knowledge with another person at the table and he's not scared they might let the info leak (Of course, I put him on the wrong hand and missed the guy who reraised, but still a good muck) -
Mike Caro's Book of Tells is cool, but old, old pictures...I learned some of this stuff from that - I like the videos a bit better. Look for them for cool info. But don't put too much into it...If you've got the set, and you like it, stay with it...don't muck...People fake tells and sometimes you're so focused on reading ANYTHING that you'll read your worst expectations.
RB
1. The first clue is hand selection and the number
of hands an opponent plays. Watch the showdowns.
2. You can't watch everyone at once. Concentrate on
the top two chips counts at your table. Do look at the flop, watch their reactions instead.
3. Look to your left. Your opponents to your left
are important they have position over you. Many
times you get clues as to their intentions. Grab
chips and raise, grab their cards and fold.
4. It should take about 30 minutes to find the worst
players and the players to avoid.
5. In a LL game, you should be more concerned about
YOUR game first. Then worry about your opponents.
The real value of finding this type of info is
if your heads up or three way. In a multiway pot,
you will have to show the best hand.
Great thread. I'm also a big believer of watching people watch the flop, it has saved me a lot of money. If they stare at the flop, they probably don't have much. But if someone looks away after the flop or glances down at their chips for even a second, they probably have something.
MD
I've had this problem for the last three nights now...I sit down at a table with a wild character or two, and I get rivered by the crappest cards...Now the last two nights, I've held in there and bounced back w/o going on tilt. I've left ahead by a couple of bucks...(btw...this is all 3/6 or 4/8) .
Tonight, however, the whole table was ballistic...loose aggressive...with crummy cards. (my A-J got slammed by J-2 once - Top pair with pocket 2's that he came in with for two bets) - I'm faced with a dilemia...I started in with $280 - (at a 3-6 table)- cause I know there'll be variance...a lot of it...and I'm down about $180 ...I don't want to leave cause I can't quite recover the money I've put in any other way...and you know ideally you'll come out ahead in the long run if you keep getting check raised with only middle pair in their hands ....do you stay and hope for the final killer hand or run away. If I've got the time and money, I'd like to stay, and I haven't gone on tilt, so I should stay, right?
Tonight - after 7 hours of bad beats in the tournament and afterwards back on the 3-6 table, and down to my last $100, I resigned myself to being $180 down and getting ready to call it a night when the kid on my left points out that a real loose cannon has down at the table....and I get dealt pocket A's. It's capped pre-flop, and all I do is call. Everyone else raises...(no point...no one would go out) - board is something like 2 7 9 blank...capped again...blank card, It gets to two bets on the turn and one on the river when a face card turns up. This whole time, I've only called bets and I'm just crying cause I know there's two pair or a set and I wouldn't have been able to drive anyone out anyway...they'd just reraise me to the cap.
To make a long story short, my pocket A's miraculously held up, I raked in a $230 pot after my contributions, and I get so excited and shouting and throwing my hat that the floor supervisor comes over and almost gave me a talking to when he saw I had my arms around a pile of chips so big I couldn't hug them all...they kind of grimaced at my outburst but let it be...I guess adrenline fueled bursts of joy are occasionally permitted, thank goodness...(I'm still ashamed however....I'd best keep my face out of there for a few days - )
So again, after playing tight and solid, I come out even (well...9-10 bucks down after meals and tokes...but I try to put that back in at the end of the night out of my own pocket)- but should I have even stayed? There is no doubt I caught a blessing from the poker gods on that one and miraculously didn't get rivered by two pair or a set with 3 callers all the way...What makes a game so bad it's not worth playing in? Just tightness?
I'll make the following observations knowing I'm way out on a limb: [1] I don't think you know how to beat wild games. [2] If you doubt whether or not you should stay, then your attitude has deteriorated to the point that you should leave. [3] You don't want to raise early with your AA because you intend to show this one down and if YOU raise then THEY will STOP raising; its better if they just keep raising. [4] You are "crying" and are "shouting" and "throwing hat" ... I suspect these wild games are too much of an emotional burden for you right now. [5] Looks like you need to reevaluate your definition of "tilt". [6] So in these three wild games you won twice and broke even once. What's the problem?
- Louie
Hmmmm...interesting points..
[1] I don't think you know how to beat wild games
How to beat wild games...you may be right on that...I tightened up like a son of a gun...but perhaps that's the wrong approach (I'm siding with Lee Jones on that one who says you don't loosen up even if your opponents are loose)- I did get a kick out of bluffing a couple hands...but that's about it. Just tight cards and tighter laydowns. Perhaps I should look for threads on how to beat wild games.
[2] If you doubt whether or not you should stay, then your attitude has deteriorated to the point that you should leave.
Probably also correct...I was about 10 minutes away either way...and I left one hand after winning that pot.
[3] You don't want to raise early with your AA because you intend to show this one down and if YOU raise then THEY will STOP raising; its better if they just keep raising.
I somewhat agree there on your philosophy, but I really do think if I had come in for 3 bets either pre flop or post flop it would still have gotten capped even if I tried to show strength on this table at this game with these players...(I mean, $230 in the pot, and I never raised the whole hand) - the fact that it got to two bets on the turn and one on the river and no one could beat my one pair...Just so insane...and ANY two cards could have been in ANYONE's hand
In retrospect, I'm wondering if I shouldn't have raised it to 3 bets on the turn or 2 bets on the river...After throwing $45 bucks in there, you think I wound't be afraid to go all in with another $45...but like I said, even though it was a board full of blanks - ANY TWO cards could have been played...3-8 for two pair in a heartbeat...also pocket 3's...and they would have called 5 bets with them...believe me...they were this bad.
[4] You are "crying" and are "shouting" and "throwing hat" ... I suspect these wild games are too much of an emotional burden for you right now.
Let me rephrase one thing...I wasn't crying tears...more like a cry of joy...Only thing that can reduce me to tears in Canterbury is the sight of all the pretty ladies on Friday night back in the casino room ;)
In response...I'll just say that my tiny outburst of joy, whatever it was, would not have been in anger should I have lost, and was one half showboating at these steamrollers and paying them back...and would not have happened if I thought I had the slightest chance of winning when I turned over my cards - like if I had gotten an A and made a set...then it probably wouldn't have happened.
(yeah, I know...If I didn't think I could win, why did I stay in? Get your A-J rivered by J-2 sometime and you'll be scared of every hand thereafter)
In fact, after one particularly bad hand, one winner complimented me by saying "At least you don't get angry" and he's right...at least I don't show it. I go there a lot, and I don't want to be a jerk...I want people to win
My response was like the guy who thinks he blew the lottery only to find out he threw away last week's ticket, not the one in his wallet with the winning numbers. To me, it wasn't the money that mattered so much as that it was a vindication of my play and what I'm trying to learn...the feeling that...ok, maybe Sklansky and Malmuth weren't wrong...and I haven't been playing poorly and mucking the whole night for no reason. My bankroll can take several hits like that and still be ok, (I've still got about 200 big bets left in it) - but I'm not experienced enough yet (4 months) to not doubt myself a bit even when I'm playing an A game and getting creamed by the guys playing the D- game. The truth is, I'm almost enjoying the last three nights where I make $150 - 200 to break even more then I enjoy just winning $200 outright...Hell, anyone can catch a string of cards to win money...to bounce back when you're getting creamed and you think you're down...that almost feels better. It means I've learned.
In conclusion...I apologized to the floor, I felt bad, but it wasn't bad play, just bad me...and I suspect the floor let it go because they knew it wasn't anger and it was a positive expression (and if someone wins the jackpot..the whole table does it...I know I won more then what a table share would have been of the jackpot that night in that one pot) - and I think like my early play where I'd go on tilt my last 40 dollars, this will probably quit happening. Thankfully, it was a 2AM when the room was half empty and full of people I don't know
[5] Looks like you need to reevaluate your definition of "tilt".
Got to raise my eyebrows at this. My defination of tilt is the same as I presume most everyone else's ... loose play with bad cards preflop and afterwards.. usually after a couple of bad beats but I never did that. What defination are you referring to? (I admit to occasionally getting wild and playing my last 3 dollars blind...but heck...that's almost pure entertainment value watching everyone else's reaction.)
6] So in these three wild games you won twice and broke even once. What's the problem?
No problem on the surface (although I'm not sure a $1.33 per hour expectation could necessarily be considered a win - but then again, I do pay for my dinner with chips, so maybe it's more like $20 bucks) - It's just the question I asked was "is this a game I should be looking for or staying in?" - and I don't believe the answer should depend on whether or not I've broke even the last three nights...It should be the same even if I didn't bounce back...say, last night..(If I never bounce back...then the answer is clear...don't play...just stay home and practice)
This question I feel has been answered by others...it would appear that "bad" games aren't really loose games with bad rivers and wild players (loose-aggressive) - but more the tight-aggressive - where everyone is taking you and playing well. and if you have the money to stay in there for the killer pots, it's worth it...That's what I wanted to know...who would get up and walk away from a table like this.
I know one guy who did...the real loose cannon, after losing to my A's and playing only one hand - walked away to a 4-8 table to try his steamrolling somewhere else. Or maybe he realized you can't steamroll a table that already has 4-5 other steamrollers on it.
Allrighty...criticism taken. I've learned important lessons about my behavior and the best part, it didn't cost me to learn them...and I shall not make certain mistakes again... Merci for your time and attention in these long, long winded posts...
that is most people's definition of tilt. however, i think feeney's definition is much better: any time you make a play that you know is wrong for emotional reasons, you are on tilt. this includes calling one more bet with what you are certain is not the best hand "just in case," bluff or semi-bluff raising when you know you will be called, playing even one hand preflop that you know you shouldn't, and yes, playing your last $3 blind.
occasionally, you will tilt - make a decision that you know is wrong based on your read - and win. you shouldn't be happy that your gut was right here; you should be disappointed that your read was wrong.
one more piece of advice: the section on loose games in hpfap is far superior, imho, to the jones book. the sooner you understand the concepts in hpfap and can apply the lessons in the loose games chapter, the better. in my experience, following the jones advice can be costly. your mileage, and that of others, may vary.
good luck
the club
Here my two cents worth.
Don't you really mean stay at a table that has "bad" players.. "Bad" meaning loose agressive. Yes, you stay, if you have the stomach for the variance.
(Based upon your comments & bankroll , you may not have the "stomach".) My advise, stay if:
1) your bankroll can stand the variance.. in a super agressive game 100 big-blinds. 2) you can keep a cool head when players keep "sucking out" on you. 3) you can tighten up your hand selection pre and post flop. 4) Bet based upon value only and don't be timid 5) Don't try anything tricky 6) relax because no-one (that matters) is watching you.
Enjoy the ride, it'll be more thrills than a rollercoaster..........
nah, when your opponents make mistakes, that is always an advantage to you, even though they might suck out on you, and make it difficult (read - expensive) for you to stick in there when you probably have the best hand. those games have enormous variance, but if you play right, (read - only the best hands, and the draws to the best hand) you will beat it in the long run.
I remember one night, I was at our 4-8 main game, and it was relatively boring. Very little preflop raising, small pots, etc. Nice loose-passive game. These guys would lay down almost anything. Then everyone starts talking about the madness going on at the must-move. Dealers come over and said "Goddamn...over there, EVERY preflop gets capped eight-way, most rounds get capped, and the pots are at least $150 each." Half of our players are watching their table inbetween hands because it's just that crazy. So a few of our players left, and they got replaced by players from the must-move who were in a mood to gamble. The table started picking up, the pots started getting bigger, and things started getting crazier....not to the tune of capped preflops, but getting there. Time to change strategy.
Before the crazies sat, I was calling with quite a few marginal hands preflop because I knew I wouldn't have to pay more than the $4 to begin with. In some extreme cases, the flop got checked around, and I could catch with overcards, make two pair, get a free shot at a runner-runner flush or gutshot straight, etc. Sometimes I could bluff against one or two players if I got a sense they didn't catch anything. Now with the table becoming more loose-agressive, I tightened up my starting hand requirements considerably. Why? Because 1) I'm going to pay $8 or more to see the flop and 2) when I do hit a hand, it's gonna be HUGE. No more betting top pair/weak kicker. No more bluffing. No more slowplaying....these guys will pay it off, even if I turn my cards over and show them what I've got. Of course, if I do get involved in a hand, it's gonna cost me quite a bit....so I made a psychological adjustment to get ready to mix it up with these guys.
So I watched and watched....folded most of my hands on the flop for an hour or more. Then I got a nut four-flush draw (KQs) after paying $12 to see the flop, which came down with the A and the 5 of my suit. Perfect. With six players seeing the flop and two preflop raisers, I knew that I could bet and raise this thing just as if I had top pair or two pair. As long as I was getting four or five callers, I was getting an outstanding return on my investment should I hit. One guy bet, three called, I raised, and to my amazement, they all called. They probably thought I was protecting top pair/great kicker or something. Next card was a blank...first guy bet out, got a caller, I raised, got a few callers, bettor called. By this time, the pot was outrageous. The river made my flush and didn't pair the board. Can't ask for anything better. To my surprise, the bettor bet out AGAIN, and he got a caller! I raised of course, everyone between dropped, and the bettor reraised....(obviously representing the flush, right??)...the guy inbetween called (attracted by the pot I guess,) and I capped it. They called. The original bettor looked at me and turned over middle pair on the flop which caught his kicker on the river for two pair. He thought he sucked out on my top pair. The guy inbetween mucked (maybe top pair weak kicker...trying to catch?) Of course I took it down with the nut flush....HUGE.
Point is, in poker, you're paid to win money, not pots. I didn't win another hand the entire night, and I was just fine with that. Walked out a winner. When your table gets loose-aggressive, get ready for some rough sailing and make sure your pockets are deep. Your top pairs go down in value because with many players staying in, someone's bound to suck out on you. Not saying they will, but don't be surprised if it happens....and they may be getting pot odds to call your bet if the preflop got crazy. Your NUT drawing hands go way up in value because you'll typically get more than enough pot odds to justify calling or raising with your draw hands. Even if you don't hit, you're getting 5:1 or more on a 2:1 proposition (turn & river...two chances to make a 4:1 hit)...sounds good to me. Don't slowplay when you complete your hand because you'll find other players drawing to weak flushes and ignorant straights. Let'em. Their play is wild, but it is still incorrect. Taking down one pot in those situations will make your night (or your week.) Just pick your spot carefully and get ready to pay dearly for it.
Stay only if you could handle the high standard deviation. I would probably leave and find a loose passive table, so it won't be as much of a crapshoot.
A bad game is one where you are the worst player on the table. Now, in a wild game, if you tilt and deviate from your gameplan, this could happen. As long as you are playing quality hands and not getting emotional, you should be fine.
Given AhKs UTG in a 3-6 game filled with weak players.
I raise. 5 people call, including one of the blinds.
Flop: Ok so I flop a gutshot with two overcards. I bet right out as usual. Two people call me.
Turn: I bet out and loose fish who is playing almost every hand raises me. Other flop caller calls all in for his last $12. I now have broadway with second nut flush draw.
Action?
I folded it, certain that loose fish had a made flush already, and I had a sneaking suspicion that all in had a dry ace of spades.
Turned out I was right as loosey turned over 7s8s and all in turned over AsKd.
The problem with loose fish is that they play any 2 flush cards. But he will also stay with a gutshot to the ignorant and.
I would worry too much about the flush and just call. Call me a pussy.
Derrick
I think you have to call it down here. If they are loose, as was said previously, they could have the lower end of the straight or even a lesser hand. You have to grit your teeth and check and call to the river. The pot is too big to fold here with the Ace high straight, especially when it is hard to put the players on a hand.
i say good laydown. laydowns based on reads SHOULD be results oriented, because the reads are based specifically on the situation as it exists, not on the probability of the cards, or the general playing style of the opponents. the results should help you to assess your hand-reading skills. you don't have to call, if your gut says he's got the flush, and you are drawing dead to the other dry ace. your hand-reading skills here saved you at least 2 if not more BB's. good job.
If you were somehow positive that both opponents had flushes then mucking might be correct, but in the real world you can't consider laying this down. You can't attach much significance to an all-in caller. A player that cold calls with any two can have any flush, to say nothing of all the 2 pair/set/straight combinations, which means you've got more than enough money in their to not only chase but to pay off if you miss the flush.
The harder question here is whether to 3-bet the turn.
I sure hope you are not thinking about laying this one down. Even if you KNOW he's got a flush you are still getting 12:1 to draw to your K flush; which more than covers the time's he's got the Ace.
You should 3-bet if the opponent will raise with less than a flush, since there are LOTs more non-flush hands that can beat AA than there are flush hands. Otherwise, call.
- Louie
i still say that he made a play based on his read of the situation and he was right. good laydown! however, if he had no read on the situation, and was pretty much playing a couple of unknowns, then a call is in order. all-ins can be hard to read, because they don't get to act after they go all-in.
Here's a question that's been nagging me a lot...A lot of times, when I win b4 the showdown on the river, I've been tempted to show my cards...A-K, K-K esp. if they're the nuts. and it's tempting to show them if you get rivered to prove you had a reason to stay in there.
I'm trying to buy respect, so I don't get rivered by medicore draws...but is this something I shouldn't do? Should I NEVER show a hand unless it's showdown?? Not even quads? Once or twice I didn't show my nut flush or pocket aces, and I caught some horrendous beats that I'm thinking I could have preempted. - and what about a bluff? It would seem to me I should never show those if I'm trying to get respect, and to show them all the time would result in too many showdowns for pots when I want to win them before it comes to that.
comments are welcome
Are you saying you want to show your cards so that people don't put money into the pot as an underdog against you? You want them to fold their gutshots on the turn against your top pair?
Just because you lose a pot now and then to a ridiculous beat doesn't mean you aren't coming out ahead in the long run against these suckout artists. If they can't learn by having top pair shown at them every single showdown, why should you educate them for free?
Don't show. Don't look for respect. Look for money.
never show. perhaps as a courtesy once in a while, to a player you respect a lot, and already knows how you play. but otherwise, keep them guessing. the less information they have the more likely they are to make mistakes. if they want to see your hand, let them pay for it. that alone may earn you extra bets from hands calling you down for peace of mind, or whatever. if you never show, then they never know.
Very poor advice advice IMHO. An expert player can really confuse and frustrate more inexperienced players by showing hands at opportune times. Showing hands is a powerful tool in the game manipulation arsenal of experienced players.
i like david's respone a lot. i'd like to add a few observations:
trying to prove you had a reason to be in there is also very weak. _you_ know you had a reason to be in there; that should be enough. if it's not enough, that's something you need to work on.
i pretty much only play online, and i constantly see players turning over their pocket aces after getting drawn out on and calling river raises by non-tricky bad opponents. i'm not saying this describes your play. however, absent the raises on the end, it is similar to what you've described. when i see this behavior, i don't think, "gee, i respect that guy for playing good cards;" rather, i think "gee, that guy can't read cards worth a damn." rather than trying to avoid this player, i now know he's a potential target for tricky plays.
in other words, you won't impress decent players because your move appears whiny and hacky, and you won't impress bad players because they're oblivious anyway.
i have only shown down a hand that i didn't have to show down once, and that's when i flopped a royal and no one called my river bet (which was, btw, my third bet of the hand - but that's another story). i didn't do it to impress anyone, and i wasn't trying to send a message. it was more like, "hey, check out the absolute nuts! wheee!"
good luck
the club
I don't show straight flushes or any other monstrous hand if they fold before the showdown. Let them wonder what you had. I'll lay down Aces and Kings without showing, too. Don't give them the satisfaction of knowing they sucked out on you. I too play mainly online, and let me tell you, I appreciate you showing your hand to me, but don't expect me to return the favor.
Why not show a royal? They happen so infrequently they can have no impact on peoples reads on you and gives everyone a little thrill (at least in live games)
Mike N
Awesome post....I agree 100%. MG
If you bluff and semibluff at close to the right frequency or more often, you should occasionally show a big hand after everyone's folded to make them more comfortable with folding, especially if you showed aggression on the flop or turn or if someone was obviously agonizing over whether you were betting a busted draw on the end.
If you don't bluff enough, keep them guessing in order to get paid off.
In any event don't do it often.
Hi Brown,
Its simple, this is a game of incomplete information, the less information your opponents have, the less well they are going to play against you. Don't show your cards except to claim the pot, and then show them quickly and without comment.
If they call you, and your ahead, your making money, even if it doesn't work out that way in the short run. Your earlier post, where you had AA, in retrospect, at what point did you want them to stop putting money into the pot? Its tough to play with maniacs, they're going to make your variance go through the roof, but they also are going to give you alot of money, because when they put 5 bets in with 9-5 suited, they are making a huge mistake, and if you're there long enough, your are going to make pocket aces stand up enough times to collect alot of that money.
*****************OFF THE SUBJECT****************
When I read your posts, I sense that you are becoming frustrated with the variance, especially when it goes in the wrong direction. One thing that you have to keep in mind, is that bankroll growth, is not a smooth function, this is not like your day job where you make the same amount of money every hour. You will lose some hours, you will lose some days, you will also win some hours and win some days. The important thing is that at the end of the month, you've learned something, and secondarily, your ahead. Certainly, you want to be ahead at the end of the year(but by then, you had better have learned alot, or all those maniacs will have passed you by).
One thing that got me more comfortable with variance is keeping records. Sometimes I keep hand by hand records, and you will see how long you can go without winning a hand, and how fast you can make that money back when you do get some good cards. One session, I went 70 hands without seeing the turn, and 50 hands without voluntarily putting any money into the pot. If that seem like alot when you read it, you should have been there while I played them. I ended up winning that session, but it was due as much to not spending much money when I had nothing, as it was to winning twelve out of thirty hands later in the session including three monster pots. If I had actually spent more during the bad stretch, sombody else would have been sitting there when the good cards came, and I would have been home nursing my wounds with a beer. Ok, so my life isn't that bad even when I do lose at poker.;o)
Keep hour by hour records, and find out what your hourly variation is. When I did that, I was shocked to find out how high that variance was, and then later I found out that my variance is fairly low when compared to most players, but is typical of winning players. If you do that, I think you will find that the swings that you are having in these sessions, aren't really remarkable, and you might be more comfortable being behind, which will lead to less frustration and better play when you are behind. Knowing what kind of swings happen hour to hour also caused me to rethink how much money I need to have in my pocket when I walk into the cardroom.
Good luck, stay positive, see you at the park,
Bob T.
Bob, I agree with the keeping of records, very important to know the how and when of your play. On the way home I do the best to recall hands and important pots. My question is how do you keep hand by hand records? Do you stop and take a walk or sit out and try to take the best notes you can. This seems kind of strange to be taking alot of notes right on the spot. Help me out on some tricks to get the data down and back home.
Thanks in Advance Bill (St. Louis)
If you truly recieved a "horrendous beat" then the opponent was NOT getting the right odds to chase and so you are glad he did.
My opinion, which appears to be in the minority, is that when you play only solid cards you WANT action. It when you ram and jam with vulnerable hands like 2nd pair that you pretty much want everybody out.
- Louie
Show opponents cards to try to keep them as far away from correct strategy as possible. For example, if people are ALWAYS chasing you to the river without odds, you want them to keep doing that. If you show them the nuts, that would get them to start folding, which bring them closer to correct strategy. Show them you're occasional bluffing hands (which should be almost non-existent against these opponents) so they chase even more, so they go even further from correct strategy.
If your opponents fold too much (I haven't seen many of these opponents), then you should show them your monsters, so they continue to fold too much. If you shown them bluffs, they will start chasing you, which will bring them closer to correct strategy.
Always try to lead your opponents away from correct strategy, not towards it.
Thank you Sam,
I still am going to not show my cards, but your idea is worth thinking about. In brown's case, he has too many people chasing him, probably incorrectly, and so I think he should not be showing cards,
good luck,
Bob T.
Normally when people are incorrectly chasing you too much you would not be showing your cards because you would want to get them to chase you even more (incorrectly). But to get them to chase more you would have to show them your bluffs, which you shouldn't be doing against these opponents. I don't know how much sense that made, but anyway...
Hi Sam,
There's a possibility that this will come through as a duplicate submission, oh well...
What I did, is keep a small notebook in my pocket, and record information after the hand is over, while the dealer is shuffling, unless I had to stack chips ;o), in which case I'd do it when I had the chance.
My note book would look like this:
3 AK+ K52 T 2 4 2 2 -27 88
//
0 QJ+ QQ2 3 0 10 98
9s 55 A52 9 2 5 3 2 +36 134
8b j5 -3 131
Each entry contains my position, O = button, 1 = cutoff and so on around the table, if I was a blind, I put s for small blind, b for big blind, and p for late post by the number.
The next item is the hand, + signifies a suited hand.
The next 1 to 3 items are the flop, turn, and river.
Then the number of players who saw the flop, turn and river.
Then my result for the hand, and how many chips I currently have.
If something notable happened, write that down also, it'll help you remember that 'charlie now makes free card plays'.
The first line reads three from the button, AK suited, flop King-five-deuce, turn ten, river deuce, four players saw the flop, two the turn, two the river, I lost 27 dollars, and I have 88 in front of me now.
The two slash marks are hands I did not play.
Then a hand where three players saw the flop, and I won with a bet there.
When you start taking notes, you might feel a little conspicuous, but most players are paying attention to their own game,their own problems, the football game on tv, the beverage server, and who knows what else.
If you want, make up some cover story, 'I'm keeping track of which dealers give me good hands' or something like that.
Because I had to remember the information to write down after the hand, I had to pay attention to the hand(which begs the question, why aren't I doing this now?) and sometimes got stuff out of the hand that I might not of if I was daydreaming or reading cardplayer or whatever.
I'd write a little summary after the session - total hands, hands played, hands where I folded my blind, hands won, session result.
I think you need at least a 1000 hands before any trends are meaningful, unless you find that you are playing 65% of the hands in which case you might have found your first leak.
You can also see whether you are playing certain hands profitably, when I went through a losing streak, I found that I was losing money with AK, by playing it too far when I missed. I also found that I held onto QQ much too long, and started to group it with JJ, TT and 99 more instead of with AA and KK.
Have fun analyzing the data and good luck.
Bob T.
Don't Ever show your hand. If your opponents never see what you had, it just means they take whatever hand they put you on and reinforce that idea in their head.
Also, some players will often call just to see what you have, fully expecting to lose. Don't give those players any reason to think they might get to see your hand without paying.
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but...
Showing your hand just gives information... Not just when you show it, but also, when you don't...
The only person that should want to be "respected" at the table is a poor player. Truly great players don't feel the need, they'll settle for the money. Its better for everyone to think you are bluffing... just pull it back and wait for your opportunity to strike.
It seems that a lot of people love using poker to satisfy their egos... I can think of a lot cheaper and easier ways. Part of the art of poker is deception... if you are a truly good player its better for only you and your banker to know that...
brown -
Another good question. The quick and dirty answer I offer to you is "rarely." It is tempting to drive players out of the pot just so you can win one and not get cracked (AGAIN.) So assume that you "coach" everyone at your table to realize that you NEVER bluff. You show down every hand you play, whether you need to or not. You could even announce your hole cards during the hand and announce the pot odds for those on possible draws. Furthermore, you could coach them to only stay in with correct draws and not try to suck out on you. "What are you doing? You HAVE to know I have trip eights on the flop, and you call two bets cold with a pair of threes? You're 23 to 1 to catch on the turn, and you're paying $8 to win $40? That's 5 to 1! On a 23 to 1 probability?? You got SO LUCKY catching that three on the turn to fill up. You might as well play slots!" (this exact situation happened to me on Friday. I kept my mouth shut.)
Even if this coaching effect was achievable, it would probably reduce your variance...but it would also drastically reduce the money in the pots you do win. Pretty soon, you're playing against nine good players who don't make loose calls, only bet or raise when they think they have you beaten or think they can successfully bluff you out, and only make correct draws. There are no more suckers at your table. Is that what you really want?
I've found that there is little respect to be had at a LL table (especially when you're 23 like me)...since most of the players don't really care what you're playing and enjoy sucking out on "the book player." I know one player who purposely calls my preflop raises with trash, just to see if he can win against my premium hands. I'm fine with that. The only place to get respect is from the other good players at the table, and if they see you play enough and show down good cards, you may get a modicum of respect from them. They may change their game plan against you, but that's about it. You won't need to "buy" their respect.
You have to lose a couple pots and take some bad beats (ridiculously bad, in many cases) to keep those suckers interested in playing poker with you. So when you get those wired aces beaten by the gutshot low straight, don't show them down....it just seems like you're whining that your bullets got beaten. Don't let it even faze you. When you get no callers on the turn, don't turn over your top pair/great kicker. Make them wonder if you really had it (so they'll be more likely to give you a loose call in the future.) SIDE NOTE: One poster here suggested that you may show your cards to someone who knows how you play. At my casino, we have a "show one, show all" rule that can be invoked by any player. So be careful before sharing your cards with your neighbor.
But there are useful times to show your hand down when it's not necessary. Occasional bluffs come to mind...especially if people are giving you too much respect (all folding preflop against your raise, etc.) Semi-bluffs are very useful for this (betting/raising draws, bottom pair with overcard kicker, etc.) If you bet out and win before the showdown, you can turn them over and say something like "I missed" or "bottom pair's good!" Even though your play is probably correct, it will seem like a bluff to the suckers at the table. And you still win the pot with all the bluff advertising you need....a win-win situation. When you are caught bluffing and lose, you may want to turn them over so you can get a little advertising value out of your hand. The other players will realize you're capable of bluffing and will call you more often.
One excellent situation I had was getting to the showdown on an almost pure bluff against one player (I had driven the other player out, and she could have beaten me.) I wound up winning the pot, and the woman went off..."we give that kid too much respect...gotta call him more often...blah blah." Change strategy - don't bluff for a while. The very next hand I had a straight and flush draw that made the straight on the turn and the flush on the river. Since everyone was out to catch me in a bluff, I just kept betting hard....and won a huge pot.
I also get a little thrill from turning over absolute monsters (quads are nice for this) even though I don't have to. Everyone gets a little kick out of that, and it livens the game up....suckers start thinking that they can draw to a low straight flush 'cause it just might hit.....that's the mentality you want your opponents to have. Over the long run, they'll be losing money to you and not really notice or care.
Why would you want to show your cards? In my humble opinion, I want to keep my opponents guessing. Thats just me.
MG
5-10 and I am in the sb with AhAs. UTG calls (he is quite aggrivessive when he is in the hand),MP player raises, cut off calls and I reraise. Everyone calls and there are six players.
Flop Ac-8h-2h
I bet out and UTG raises, they fold around to the cut off who calls (he has been in just about every pot and calling to the end), I just call because I did not want to lose anyone else.
Turn 8d-8h-2h-Ac
I check planning to raise the UGT, who I am sure will bet. He bets but the cut off raises, so I figure the he has an 8. I only call to keep the UTG in and he calls.
River 4c-8d-8h-2h-Ac
I bet out and the UTG calls, now the cut off raises and I reraise. we lose the UTG and I am called by the cutoff.
He showed 10-9 and said he misread the 9 for an 8. I would like to know if I should have been more aggressive with the hand. Once we were down to three players I did not want to lose anyone, yet I wanted to get as much as I could out of the pot.
Thanks for any input and advise.
On the flop, with the raise on your LEFT and then a call, a 3-bet on your part would only face the opponents with a single bet. Contrast this with the turn raise on your right where if you 3-bet, UTG is faced with 2 bets.
If you 3-bet the flop you are representing AK, which is probably better than the opponents have but not enough for them to make a great lay-down (surely T8 will go to the river). If you call, you are representing perhaps AQ; not much of a difference. If you call figuring to check-raise later, you are risking 3 bets to win one more; not much of a bargain. UTG may be taking a stab at it with AT and may (correctly) check the turn out of paranoia. When someone makes their hand on the turn, then you can get in 3-bets; but if you slow-play they will likely get suspicious and give you only 2-bets.
Perhaps your "mistake" was mindlessly applying some sort of "keep them in with a monster" rule, rather than seeing if that "rule" applies well to the current situation.
Mr. Landale,
I agree three betting the flop is a gimmee, for your reasons and also to charge a flush draw or smaller set the maximum. A question for you: what about trying for a checkraise on the flop? I think a case can be made for betting out AND for trying for a checkraise on the flop and was curious about your thoughts on the matter
TIA (thanks in advance)
Someone may have the case Ace but its reasonably unlikely. Someone else may take a stab at it. But usually with trip Aces you've crippled the deck and getting even 1 bet from the opponents is doing pretty good. Also, check-raising will make them suspicious.
The "free" cards you can give in this spot can easily cost you the pot, such as when a big suited card comes on the turn making straight and flush draws. But these same free cards are much less likely to give someone a quality 2nd-best hand.
You need to be confident that "cute" will work in early position before you try it. Routinely play straight forwardly; that's plenty of "disguise" for most situations.
- Louie
Hi all, here is a hand I had last night at the Taj in Atlantic City playing 5-10 Hold Em. Once again I was reminded that a player wins more money in poker from the stupidity of others and not the brilliance of his or her play. The game was very soft maybe 2 solid players. Typical loose passive game. Not much pre-flop raising. A lot of chops blinds, sometimes a lot of action sometimes none. I am small blind with A9 suited.I am head to head with the big blind, and I ask if he wants to chop. He said "Nope I want to raise", and he raised me. Normally in that spot I would have raised, so he did the raising for me.Flop came 9 with two diamonds. I check raise and I get re-raised. I put him on an overpair. Turn brings the king of diamonds, I have made my flush. I bet out, and he raises me again. I reraise and he reraises again. At this point I realize that he has tripp kings and although I have the best hand, I cant improve and he can. I call. River brings a blank.I bet he raises I reraise and he calls. He cant wait to show the tripp kings, I just turned over the nut flush and let the cards speak. His comment was, "you got lucky". Gotta love the live ones. MG
MG -
Your opponent was stupid when he didn't put you on the only hand I think you could have had at that point....why else would you be calling and then reraising in the face of a flush if you didn't have one yourself? Reminds me of a hand I saw at my $4-$8 table....
One loose-agressive woman got involved in a hand, along with a few other guys and one guy who regularly sits the $10-$20 and occasionally the $20-$40. A really good player, just messin around at the $4-$8. The flop came down Q J 5 rainbow. One guy bet out, the woman raised and knocked out everyone inbetween her and the "expert." He smooth called, and the other guy also called. Just that alone told me the expert was probably on a draw...no suits out there, so he's on a good straight draw...maybe KT, maybe T9. The turn was a blank...the first player checked, she bet, the expert called, and the first player folded. I remember thinking she probably had top pair, two pair, or maybe even a set...a draw was not as likely, but she could be on one (never know with this lady.) The river was a 9, making KT the nut straight. She bet, and he raised. It was fairly obvious (at least to me) that he had made his draw hand and had KT. She reraised, and I began to think that she had KT as well. He reraised (no caps heads-up at our card room) and she reraised.
Now the entire table was fairly sure that both players had KT and were just betting the nuts hard. They reraised each other about eight more times until she went all-in, and of course the dealer kept their bets separate for the upcoming pot split. He turned over exactly KT for the nut straight and didn't say a word. No surprise there. She turned over QQ for a losing top set and basically said "ship it" (??) The whole table had to do a double-take, and then she realized that her hand was not the immortal nuts. Needless to say, the entire poker room eventually heard about that bone-headed play. She was so embarrassed she got up and left (lucky for us, she's been back many times since.)
You are right in saying that most of a good player's profits come from the stupid plays of his opponents. Although the above is an extreme case, I've seen players call throughout a hand when they have nothing and are basically drawing dead (especially in the face of turn and river raises.) They're just there to have fun and get lucky....poker's like playing roulette or slots for them. And even though it's teeth-grinding hard, we shouldn't get too upset when suckers suck out on us....no more than a casino would get upset when someone puts $5000 on 22 black and hits it. Just because he hits, does that make his play correct?
While it is true that your opponent can draw out on you, your edge on the turn is large enough that you should be willing to put in your entire stack. Even if the game is juicy and you don't want to be knocked out, you have a 3.4:1 edge, and opportunities like that don't come along every day. You left too much money on the table. Bring more money next time or hit the cash machine or something.
Andy, You guys are correct. I did get a little soft. I should have taken him for more. I do thank you for your opinions. I just wonder how many other players have had these type of hands. Here is one I had where I lost the minimum. I flopped a broadway, and a player sucked me out to hit the Royale Boat. Preflop I raise early position AK offsuit. MP calls small and big blind call. Flop comes 10h Kh Qd. I now have top pair and top kicker. I check MP bets blinds both call, and I raise. MP calls blinds fold.He didnt reraise. Im hoping he has AQ off suit. Jh hits the board,I have the nut straight, but their is a straight flush draw out there. I check he bets. I know he has it, but I pay him off. River comes and I just muck the hand and tell him to show the table. Of course he held the AQ hearts for the Royale Flush. He gets a hat and a trip to the bagel cafe. Me I go home feeling good that I laid down a hand that could have gotten me into a lot of trouble. David I hope you read this because you taught me the value of laying down a hand.
Correction, I didnt flop broadway, I got it on the turn. Sorry guys.
mg
Fancy play can cost you a lot of money...
I pick up AhQh UTG at a good Paradise $2/4 and raise, as usual. Folded to the small blind who three bets. Big blind drops, I call.
Flop: Kc-Jh-9h. Yummy! As I pinch my mouse towards the raise button...SB checks! Hmm. Well I like this flop anyway, so I bet. SB calls.
Turn: 9x. SB checks. Now, in most most spots, even with some pretty decent pre-flop and/or flop action, I'd still bet the turn here with position. However, given SB's three-bet pre-flop and check/call of the flop I choose to check here and just pay off a river bet if I improve to a straight, flush or two pair aces.
River: Kh. SB has seemingly bet before I even saw the river, this stinks slowplay a long, long way but I've gotta keep my promise and pay off with my nut flush (note here: he wouldn't have gotten more river action anyway as the board now reads: K-K-J-9-9.
SB shows KK for four-of-a-kind.
I think SB put himself in a real bad spot, by giving up on what would've been good action on particularly the flop and to some extent the turn too (a bet at least) while being very vulnerable should I hit one of my 11 outs to the nuts on the turn.
lars
Sure, he's vulnerable to the flush, but since he's heads-up, it's very hard for him to put you on the flush draw. I agree, he should have bet the flop, but he has almost as many outs to a full house on the flop as you do to the nut flush (you also have four outs for Broadway, but he probably didn't account for that since you would have to hold exactly AhQh for both draws.) His smooth call on the flop would worry me a too...why come out three-betting preflop and just check/call on that flop? That flop would hit many premium hands (and it hit both of you.) If he had AA, he would bet/checkraise to protect his vulnerable hand...same with AK or KJ or JJ. Of course he slowplayed the turn, so you would catch your second-best flush if you were drawing to it. He may have been afraid you would drop your flush draw. It's too bad he got too much help (since the case Kh stopped you from raising on the river because a single K or 9 has you beaten.) If you had caught a different heart, you may have gotten into a raising war on the river...exactly what he was looking for. His autobet on the river is another tip that he's got a full house....good that you picked up on that.
I've been playing for almost two years now. When I first started I had a habit of showing my missed draws / bad beats. I think I did it because I was not confident about my play and I wanted to show the other players that I wasn't just some SCHMUCK. For about the last year I rarely, if ever, show my cards. I'll even wait for other players to show theirs out of turn so that I can muck without showing. Everything hits the muck no matter how good a starting hand, draw, or how bad some other player might have sucked out on me.
But this situation came up last week. I'm playing my normal 4/8 with a single BB. But a couple of players, in my opinion, are very good. They are in seats 5 and 7. None of the players at the table are schmo's as far as I can tell. I'm in seat 8 at a 9 player table. My image is extemely tight! When I raise, I believe everyone basically knows I've got AA - JJ, AKs, AK, AQs. This hand comes up about 3 hours into the session. I'm in MP and get 4h2d. The two good players and one other player limp before it gets to me. I RAISE?? Two players after me call. 6 players see the flop AKJ rainbow. It's checked to me. I know the only way I'll drag this one is if everyone folds. I bet. Get two callers. Turn is a blank. I bet, get one caller. River is another blank. I bet and my lone opponent folds. I drag a sizeable pot for my cruddy dangerous tactic. At that time I choose to quickly flash my cards to the two good players. I'm thinking I'm setting something up for the future - possibly inticing them to call a future hand when I'm strong. Am I right? Or did I just play plain bad poker and get lucky?
-Michael
I think you did exactly the right thing in showing down your pure bluff. If your image was as tight as you say, that definitely cured it for a while. Plus you won a pot, so why not get the maximum advertising out of it as well? Since you were up against good players who were giving your preflop raises (too much?) respect, I think you did the right thing. Show your bluff, stack their chips, and change gears to wait a while before the next bluff you show down.
I disagree, I think you stack the chips, and try and steal more often, sooner or later you will have to show a bluff, and then you can slow down, but until then play like you got AK every hand you choose to play.
good luck,
Bob T.
I think this is a bad flop to bluff at. Six handed, two "good" players and two players who called a preflop raise and nobody hit an AKJ flop?
But, since it worked and you won uncontested, why advertise here? If your image is that strong, use it to your advantage. Don't show your 24o. Run more bluffs. Just keep winning pots without showing a hand. Then, when you finally do get caught, that will be your advertising hand.
PG
I think I might rather try that with 65s or something. 24o is just awful. Don't assume you'll be able to buy it.
I'm playing 2-4 in A.C. this weekend. 8 players semi-loose game. UTG raises. He's been trying to control the game so far by bullying all the weak players around. MP calls. I look at my cards and see Ak/o. I call the big blind calls. The flop comes A92 rainbow. utg bets mp calls i raise bb folds utg calls mp calls. turn is the 5d. utg checks mp checks i bet both call. river is the 6c. utg checks mp checks i bet utg raises! mp calls. Now I think to my self how did the river help him. He raised preflop and was quiet until now. Did he slowplay AA or did he make trip 6s. I call cause I've got to see this. He turns over 5-6. He looks over at me and says thats what they call the field of dreams, when you catch two perfect cards to win it. I disgustingly nod my head.
I limp in the cutoff after 4 limpers with As9s... button telegraphed his fold. sb calls, BB *raises*, all call.
FLOP:
A-9-T rainbow
sb checks, BB bets, fold, call, call, fold, i raise, sb folds, call, call, call.
TURN:
A-9-T--2 rainbow
check,check,check, i bet, all call.
RIVER:
A-9-T--2--T
check, check, check, its on you, now what?
The river sucks. There is a big chance you are beaten now. A better hand will never fold. I think you should check.
Anders
Clear check.
I get KK in mid/late position, 3 limp, I raise, sb, bb, and limpers call. suits irrelevant in this one.
FLOP:
A-Q-T
checked to me, now what?
i check, figuring either im ahead, or drawing nearly dead, and with 5 loose/passive opponents i dont figure to take it down here. also, any mediocre ace will just check/call to the river.
TURN:
A-Q-T--x
checked to player on my right, he bets, i raise, all others fold, he calls. comments?
I raise here for 2 reasons... one, this guy is capable of running a bluff (i want to take it down now!)and also because I am sure *he* would have bet any ace on the flop, and usually will bet 2nd pair when flop is checked around.
I like this raise. If he has an Ace with bad kicker, he might lay it down, and if you're behind you have outs to four jacks and possibly two kings, although the jacks might split the pot. I'd check down the river unless I hit a jack. If he called the turn raise with a bare ace, he'll call the river.
Why is this on the beginner's forum? You need to repost this on the General Holdem Forum.
Small Stakes Hold'em
Posted by: Louie Landale (llandale@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 August 2001, at 12:02 p.m.
Posted by: PlAyItFaSt
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 1:32 a.m.
Posted by: bernie
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 10:59 a.m.
Posted by: Ed Pikone (epionke@mayerbrown.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 August 2001, at 2:00 p.m.
Posted by: David (dedelman@pdq.net)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 August 2001, at 3:29 p.m.
Posted by: Wrong Forum Man
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 August 2001, at 3:42 p.m.
Posted by: Dave in Cali (grimreaper777@juno.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 2:28 p.m.
Posted by: baggins (baggins99@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 7:14 p.m.
Posted by: Louie Landale (llandale@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 11:53 a.m.
Posted by: jd
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 August 2001, at 2:15 p.m.
Posted by: brown (brown@mn.rr.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 August 2001, at 3:51 p.m.
Posted by: Poker novice (rmesserian@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 August 2001, at 6:49 p.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 August 2001, at 7:58 p.m.
Posted by: richardf (koijufm@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 22 August 2001, at 9:29 p.m.
Posted by: Dave Shaw (rshaw@ualberta.ca)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 5:10 a.m.
Posted by: Ikke (ikkepoker@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 6:20 a.m.
Posted by: Dave Shaw (rshaw@ualberta.ca)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 6:30 a.m.
Posted by: Ikke (ikkepoker@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 7:09 a.m.
Posted by: Michael (mstein22@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 12:42 p.m.
Posted by: Dave in Cali (grimreaper777@juno.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 2:28 p.m.
Posted by: Dave Shaw (rshaw@ualberta.ca)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 8:41 p.m.
Posted by: Bob T. (rjruler@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 11:23 p.m.
Posted by: bernie
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 11:10 a.m.
Posted by: KJS (kscullin@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 8:25 p.m.
Posted by: bernie
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 11:20 p.m.
Posted by: rakay (rrakay@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 11:37 p.m.
Posted by: David Ottosen (dottosen@powersurfr.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 11:11 a.m.
Posted by: Mark Upman
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 11:45 a.m.
Posted by: Lance
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 11:49 a.m.
Posted by: Dave Shaw (rshaw@ualberta.ca)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 8:52 p.m.
Posted by: Lance
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 1:04 p.m.
Posted by: Derrick Ashworth (djashworth@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 1:58 p.m.
Posted by: Dave in Cali (grimreaper777@juno.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 2:27 p.m.
Posted by: baggins (baggins99@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 7:09 p.m.
Posted by: SS
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 5:15 p.m.
Posted by: The Drake
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 5:57 p.m.
Posted by: Bob T. (rjruler@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 11:19 p.m.
Posted by: rakay (rrakay@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 11:46 p.m.
Posted by: New Guy
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 1:00 p.m.
Posted by: baggins (baggins99@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 6:54 p.m.
Posted by: Michael Davis (parlement@msn.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 12:06 a.m.
Posted by: Jeff
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 1:04 p.m.
Posted by: Jeff
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 1:05 p.m.
Posted by: MM
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 4:16 p.m.
Posted by: baggins (baggins99@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 6:32 p.m.
Posted by: Jeff
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 2:33 p.m.
Posted by: baggins (baggins99@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 6:08 p.m.
Posted by: Louie Landale (llandale@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 11:42 a.m.
Posted by: Kam-Gong
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 12:19 p.m.
Posted by: Poker novice (rmesserian@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 2:14 p.m.
Posted by: Derrick Ashworth (djashworth@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 3:44 p.m.
Posted by: Dave in Cali (grimreaper777@juno.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 6:47 p.m.
Posted by: Poker novice (rmesserian@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 23 August 2001, at 7:26 p.m.
Posted by: checkraise
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 1:57 a.m.
Posted by: iblucky4u2 (iblucky4u2@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 2:52 a.m.
Posted by: Michael (mstein22@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 1:19 p.m.
Posted by: Sheck (sheckler@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 3:36 p.m.
Posted by: rakay (rrakay@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 August 2001, at 9:17 a.m.
Posted by: brown (brown@mn.rr.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 4:24 p.m.
Posted by: TR (tomcrich@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 August 2001, at 10:24 p.m.
Posted by: MD
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 12:21 p.m.
Posted by: brown (brown@mn.rr.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 3:54 a.m.
Posted by: Louie Landale (llandale@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 11:37 a.m.
Posted by: brown (brown@mn.rr.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 3:49 p.m.
Posted by: the club
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 6:10 p.m.
Posted by: GatorMan
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 11:42 a.m.
Posted by: baggins (baggins99@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 11:49 a.m.
Posted by: checkraise
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 1:11 p.m.
Posted by: MM
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 8:08 p.m.
Posted by: TR (tomcrich@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 August 2001, at 1:58 a.m.
Posted by: David Ottosen (dottosen@powersurfr.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 12:38 p.m.
Qs Jc 6s
10s
Posted by: David Ottosen (dottosen@powersurfr.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 12:39 p.m.
Posted by: Derrick Ashworth (djashworth@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 2:37 p.m.
Posted by: Tim in OR (TMinore@webtv.net)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 4:28 p.m.
Posted by: baggins (baggins99@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 6:02 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Alger (cralger1@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 6:46 p.m.
Posted by: Louie Landale (llandale@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 August 2001, at 10:59 a.m.
Posted by: baggins (baggins99@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 3:01 a.m.
Posted by: brown (brown@mn.rr.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 4:32 p.m.
Posted by: David Ottosen (dottosen@powersurfr.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 4:45 p.m.
Posted by: baggins (baggins99@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 5:51 p.m.
Posted by: wgb (wgb_llb@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 August 2001, at 3:20 a.m.
Posted by: the club
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 5:58 p.m.
Posted by: JJG
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 7:06 p.m.
Posted by: BetThedraw (betthedraw@lightspeed.ca)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 August 2001, at 9:06 p.m.
Posted by: MG in NJ (defen1220@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 2:55 p.m.
Posted by: Chris Alger (cralger1@home.com)
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 6:31 p.m.
Posted by: Bob T. (rjruler@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 August 2001, at 3:55 a.m.
Posted by: Bill (tobar832@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 8:51 a.m.
Posted by: Louie Landale (llandale@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 August 2001, at 11:05 a.m.
Posted by: Sam (sammylalonde@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 August 2001, at 3:24 p.m.
Posted by: Bob T. (rjruler@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 August 2001, at 4:16 p.m.
Posted by: Sam (sammylalonde@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 1:45 p.m.
Posted by: Bob T. (rjruler@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 3:02 p.m.
Posted by: Wardy (samward@dingoblue.net.au)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 10:16 a.m.
Posted by: Steve (fosters@mail.utexas.edu)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 11:02 a.m.
Posted by: checkraise
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 12:44 p.m.
Posted by: MG in NJ (defen1220@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 2:49 p.m.
Posted by: Ward
Posted on: Friday, 24 August 2001, at 9:35 p.m.
Posted by: Louie Landale (llandale@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Saturday, 25 August 2001, at 10:36 a.m.
Posted by: hillbilly
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 11:15 a.m.
Posted by: Louie Landale (llandale@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 1:43 p.m.
Posted by: MG in NJ (defen1220@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 3:52 p.m.
Posted by: checkraise
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 7:00 p.m.
Posted by: Andy B (beerskeds@earthlink.net)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 7:09 p.m.
Posted by: MG in NJ (defen1220@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 9:15 p.m.
Posted by: MG in NJ (defen1220@aol.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 9:39 p.m.
Posted by: Lars Vegas
Posted on: Sunday, 26 August 2001, at 11:13 p.m.
Posted by: checkraise
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 1:29 a.m.
Posted by: Michael (mstein22@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 12:25 a.m.
Posted by: checkraise
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 1:11 a.m.
Posted by: Bob T. (rjruler@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 6:50 a.m.
Posted by: PokerGeek (pokergeek331@yahoo.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 2:55 a.m.
Posted by: Sam (sammylalonde@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 9:48 a.m.
Posted by: C. staubs (cstaub@amcinsurance.net)
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 9:19 a.m.
Posted by: nf
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 9:39 a.m.
Posted by: Anders
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 12:05 p.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 12:55 p.m.
Posted by: nf
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 9:57 a.m.
Posted by: Mark Upman
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 10:52 a.m.
Posted by: David Sklansky (Dsklansky@aol.com)
Posted on: Monday, 27 August 2001, at 12:53 p.m.
August 2001 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo