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Hi all,
Been sick for a while, so haven't played recently. This hand is one that has stuck with me from a session about a month ago. The details may not be exactly right, but I'll try to give as accurate an accounting as possible.
The game is relatively loose. There are a couple of aggressive players at the table, but the table isn't completely wild and out of control. I've just sat down. To my immediate left is a player who is a bigtime fish. He'll bet/raise the flop with any pair or reasonable draw, but will usually back off on the later rounds, getting downright passive on the river. The other player of interest for this hand is the kid in the 5 seat (I'm in seat 1, bleh!) I've never played with him, but my preliminary read is that his purpose in life seems to be to make tricky plays and fancy raises, most often at inopportune times.
PREFLOP
I look down and find Jc Tc in middle position. The one true maniac is to my right and just calls, so I call as well. Fish calls, as does the kid. SB completes, BB checks.
About 6 players, 6 SB in pot.
FLOP: Jd 9c 6c
Hmmm, not bad. Checked to me, I bet. Fish raises, Kid 3-bets. Everybody else folds.
Well, methinkst I have a drawing hand. I'm not happy about the price I'm going to have to pay on this one, but I call the extra two, the fish calls behind.
3 players, 15 SB = 7.5 BB in pot.
TURN: Th
Well now I have two pair to go along with my clubs draw. On the other hand, the T does make a straight possible---it's possible that I'm still behind. However, I want to put the thumbscrews to my opponents, plus make an impression early on in the sit, so I come out swinging. Fish calls, and the kid double-clutches, but raises.
So, in this situation, you have 4 outs to a tight, and 9 outs to a (non-nut) flush. Do you just call, or do you 3-bet here?
All comments on my play so far are appreciated, results will follow in a bit.
Dave
When the off suit ten falls on the turn I wouldn't worry very much about a straight... very few players will raise or 3-bet a J96 two-flush flop with 87 or KQ... although given your description I think it is marginally possible that the kid would three-bet with 87c for the open ended straight flush draw, I wouldn't worry about the straight on the turn unless you're 4-bet. I would worry about the kid having a set of 6's or 9's, however, because they are both fairly consistant with his play. The real question is, what kinds of hands have you seen him 3-bet on the flop? If you think he would 3-bet two pair or even AJ on the flop then you should probably 3-bet... even if you think he has the set you might 3-bet anyway so that if you hit your flush on the river it is disguised and you're slightly more likely to get paid off. In general though, I would guess that your top two are good here and also that if you hit it you flush will be good as well, so 3-bet almost everytime. One final reason to 3-bet... there is a reasonable chance that someone, probably the fish, holds a king or queen so you want to charge them dearly to draw to a straight.
Just my opinion.
4-8 holdem at the grand casino in marksville. (Brutal session..lost $90 of a $120 buy in within 40 minutes) Early in the game but it appears tight agressive. Recognize several players from previous trips. On the button with k-j. 7 people call the blinds (2&4) and i call also. Flop comes k-q-x. All check to me. I bet. goal is to limit the field and it works. two call from middle position. Turn is another queen. 1st player checks. 2nd bets. Uh-oh. I call (any comments on whether this was a mistake? I don't think so) River is a j giving me k and j two pair. both players now check. I bet. Good decision? results to follow. (I did not have a read on either of these players)
First off, 7 players seeing the flop doesn't sound like a tight-aggressive game to me... your post-flop play depends on whether this is an isolated event or if people were playing loose pre-flop in general.
Flop bet is fine, mainly because you are probably winning here.
It depends on the players, but you should probably fold on the turn. Very few LL players are tricky enough to bet out on the turn after check-calling the flop with something that can't beat KJ here. Assuming a normal opponent, it will probably cost you 2 BB to get to the showdown from here, and the pot at this point contains maybe 6 BB. I think you will get shown a queen or some other hand beating your KJ here often enough that it's not worth it, unless this player is a habitual bluffer or you have some tremendous tell on him. Remember though, you bet out the flop and he called. And BEFORE you acted on the turn he bet out, so you are almost definitely losing here.
Betting the river here is a humongous losing play. You certainly won't get anyone with a king or better to fold here, and I seriously doubt anyone with a weaker hand (like a sinle jack) would call. LL players don't tend to check-raise the river very often, so you'll probably just get called down. My guess is that the turn bettor just called with a Q and bad kicker.
Next time, check the river here. And please, don't play short-stacked... you barely have enough money to call a single bet each round, and if there's a raise you're probably going all-in. One final thing... limping with KJo (I assume it wasn't suited because you didn't say that it was) from late position with many limpers can be positive EV if you play well enough post-flop, but given your play on this hand I would just throw away KJo and similar garbage pre-flop until my post-flop play improved significantly.
Just my opinion.
Not to mention, the LL games in California that have three blinds 1, 3 and 3 and so forth... cannot be beaten. They cost too much per hour to play. You need to play 6/12 and up MINIMUM. 10/20 and up to make any decent money.
If anyone tells you 3/6 HE with three blinds can be beaten long term they are full of shit.
The low 1, 2 blind 3/6 games like that in Vegas and Reno can be beaten, but don’t expect to make better then $5, $6 an hour.
The low limit games here are not much different from anywhere else, except perhaps there is a bit more raising here than the east coast. I have been consistently beating them since I moved here, and I was beating the games in AC before then.
I haven't seen any games with three blinds, all the games out here are pretty much the same as anywhere else, 2 blinds. If there were three blinds in the game all that would be required to beat them is a few small adjustments, not much would be that different.
The reason that low limit games ARE BEATABLE, despite the sometimes high rake (or drop) is that the other players usually play SO BADLY that anyone who is a skilled player can still clean up. And then if you are somewhat game selective and also play in places with lower rakes / drops / time charges, you can really do pretty darn well. With a high drop or rake, you must be in loose games with big pots. If there is a time charge, your win rate will somewhat depend on how high it is. I have one room I play in that charges 3$/half hour for 3-6 with a kill, a pretty darn good price. The games there are easily beatable by anyone who is skilled at loose passive or loose aggressive games.
Obviously you will not make a living at 3-6, but that's not what I am trying to do. But I do consistently beat these games, no matter what you think. And I know a couple other players who also consistently play and beat low limit games.
Part of the reason I play cards is for fun and entertainment, and I have not found the higher limit games to be much fun on the average. So even though I could more than afford to play as high as 10-20, I generally stay at 6-12 or lower (and usually 3-6 or 4-8, all with kills) because it's just more fun. But I am not into playing cards to be a loser, and I have consistently been a winner for quite some time now.
People who think low limit games are unbeatable simply haven't found the right set of adjustments required to get the $$. Once you have them, it's like shooting fish in a barrel....
Dave in Cali
"I haven't seen any games with three blinds, all the games out here are pretty much the same as anywhere else, 2 blinds. If there were three blinds in the game all that would be required to beat them is a few small adjustments, not much would be that different."
I live and play in Reno mainly 3/6 4/8 and a bit of 6/12. I haven’t played in CA, but have talked to quite a few who have, and from what I hear it is CA law that the 'pot' must not be touched or 'raked', thus the 'rake' comes in the form of the "$3 button" and does NOT go in the pot and is not considered a "live bet". I could be wrong as I have never played CA. Have spoke with a lot that have though as well as dealers who have dealt at Artichoke Joe's Bay 101...
You must play at Indian Casino's? They rake the pot I'm pretty sure and thus only use the normal two blinds.
You have to admit that to pay more to play cuts into you're expectation and thus you're edge.
If you only consider the $3 button and the $1 blinds as "costs", and assuming 40 hands per hour (4 rounds) you have to make 2.5 BBs an hour just to break even. Compare this to a game in Vegas or Reno that has two blinds ($1 & $2 for 3/6 HE) and only costs $4 an Hour to play which is 75% less then a 3 blind 3/6 HE CA. Game. If I make 2BB's an hour on average then I can net around $8 am hour before toke.
I seriously doubt you can average better then 2.5 BBs an hour over a statistically significant sample and if so would it be enough to make playing worthwhile?
I think not.
Average luck, (as a friend always says...)
Tim
If the game has a dead drop on the button, that is you post a blind and they take it and it doesn't count towards your bet before the flop, I won't play in it. This atrocious rule would cut into my hourly rate too much to make playing worthwhile. At the indian casinos, at least at viejas, they take a drop out of the BB but only AFTER there is a flop (so it is still possible to steal the blinds). The key is that your blind is dropped after the flop, so it counts towards your bet. As long as the game is pretty loose, it's hardly any different than playing in a raked game. If the game is very tight then it costs you proportionately more and is no longer worth it (I will not play in very tight games in veijas, and basically dislike tight games anyway, no money to be made, and no fun either).
Another place I play has time charges which are quite reasonable. The games here are easy to beat if you know what you are doing and make good adjustments for loose games.
In all the places I play, the games are very loose with medium to large pots, depending on the particular lineup. Read my posts, it should be pretty obvious that I find very good games to play in, and this has a lot to do with why I beat the games so consistently. I mean it's easy to beat total morons, even if there is a high drop. Admittedly, I would probably not do as well at 15-30 on the average, because their would tend to be more good players and fewer morons. But whatever, I don't play this game for a living. I play for fun and supplemental income, which the lower limits have very consistently provided.
"You have to admit that to pay more to play cuts into you're expectation and thus you're edge. "
Good point. I hope this post clears some of this up. I tend to choose to play at the places with the lowest time/drops whenever possible for this very reason. Mostly the only reason I play at viejas is when I have entered a tournament, so I am already there. The games are soooooo good some of the time that I simply can't pass them up, despite the high rake. The game where I won almost 800$ in eight hours at 3-6 was at viejas. Despite the fact that this was probably a statistical outlier, games this good occur all the time there. Game selection is the key. Sometimes a higher rake or drop or time is OK if the game is just soooooooooo much better....
Playing at the lower limits has proven to be more than worth my while over the long run, that's the only reason I continue to play them. I suppose I will move up in stakes eventually, but I MUST be having fun or the $$ doesn't mean a thing. I can afford to play considerably higher than I usually play, I just like things the way they are for the moment.
Interesting bantering with you though.
Dave in Cali
You're in San Diego eh? I was born and raised there (La Mesa), actually just left two years ago and headed for Reno.
Like I thought you must play at Indian Casino’s, which you do apparently. Those are beatable games. I thought maybe you were playing in the Gardena clubs or Bay 101...
Those were the LL games I was referring to as "unbeatable".
I'm heading down to San Diego for a family visit next month and was planning on checking out Sycuan and possibly Viejas.
Which is better IYO?
Best,
Tim
I think viejas is pretty good, the games are usually good and the staff is pretty good for the most part. I have NOT been very impressed with the way their tournaments are run however, one day there was no chips, no dealer, and no cards at our table until the stakes were just about to go up (every 20 minutes). We got in five hands before the blinds went up. The ring games are run better though, and the wait staff is good. do yourself a favor though and use the ATM before you get there, it's a whopping 4$ charge to use it inside the casino.
I have not yet been to sycuan, but I have not heard a lot of bad things about it. some say that the better players are at viejas, but I haven't hardly seen one player there that has a much of a clue, even in the 8-16 games. I suppose there must be some skilled players there, but they are usually not in the games I wind up in. There is a core of fairly tight regulars, but I wouldn't call many of them skilled. It's just that you might want to change games if the game is tight, otherwise the drop is taking too high of a percentage of the pot each hand.
In san diego I have played mostly at the lucky lady, because it is very close to my house (also in La Mesa). The games are good most of the time, but loose-aggressive virtually all the time. Time charges are 3$/half for 3-6 (all games are kill), 4$/half for 4-8, 5$/half for 8-16 (not sure if 6-12 is 4 or 5$/half).
There is also a cardroom in oceanside, oceans 11. I was intending on trying it out soon, but with the lucky lady so close to my house (viejas too, only about 20 minutes), I just keep being lazy about it. I have heard mostly good things, but it's all hearsay until I actually try it myself.
If you would like more info or would like to meet up while you are here, email me.
Dave in Cali
Dave,
Never knew about "Lucky Lady". Is it on El Cajon Blvd. by any chance? I remember seeing a small club there once, before I was into playing cards.
How many tables of 4/8 and 8/16 do they generally have going? Is 8/16 the highest they go?
The time payments sound very reasonable especially for 8/16.
Nice that they are no smoking as well...
Thanks for the info. I'll drop you a line when I head south next month.
Tim
Last year I beat a raked $1-5 stud game at 1.5 BB. This year I am beating a raked $4-8 HE at a better rate. They are easily beaten if you choose your games wisely and are patient.
Simple math shows that this is a horrible fold. Even if you didn't do the math, you can simply tell by the size of the enormous pot at the stakes you were playing that you have to call in this position.
But, we all make mistakes, just don't do it again! :)
Jason
It's not that simple. The action here could easily suggest that someone is on a nut flush draw, in which case our man could be drawing dead or very thin (to a K high straight).
In a half-sane game (and this was probably one, it's just that for once, three players were amazingly representing the same hand, where it's usually top pair, two pair, straight, draws and all kind of different stuff that people are playing and chasing) I'd say that a nut flush draw will USUALLY be involved here, given the action.
lars
I do agree with most players that I should have called given the size of the pot.
Since I had one of the Jacks, I was pretty sure that out of the 4 other players someone must have hearts and probably the nut hearts. They could not all be on straight draws. Who would have thought that 4 players out of 5 had a Jack and 3 of those had the J9s.
WW
My second hand after moving to a new $4/8 game. I'm in the small blind with Kd2d. There are five limpers, I call, and the big blind checks. The flop comes KK2 rainbow. I bet and everyone folds. The dealer mucks my hand before I can show it, but I announce what I had. The overwhelming consensus was that I should have checked the flop. Comments?
A while later, a player who moved with me from a now-defunct $4/8 game opens for a raise in early position. This person has demonstrated very liberal raising standards. It's folded to me in middle position, and I three-bet with red Tens. Somewhat to my surprise, two late position players call three bets cold. The blinds fold, and the original raiser re-raises. We all call. The flop comes Jh9h8h, giving me an open-ended straight flush draw. The pre-flop raiser bets and we all call. The turn is another Jack. He bets and we all call. The river is a third Jack. He now checks. I bet, one of the late position players calls, and the others fold. Comments?
>> My second hand after moving to a new $4/8 game. I'm in the small blind with Kd2d. There are five limpers, I call, and the big blind checks. The flop comes KK2 rainbow. I bet and everyone folds. The dealer mucks my hand before I can show it, but I announce what I had. The overwhelming consensus was that I should have checked the flop. Comments?
First of all, NEVER EVER announce or show your cards in LL HE. I suppose if you are super sophisticated you might be able to make showing your cards into a positive EV play (that's what it is after all... a play) by setting up something later on, but if you're that good you should be playing at higher limits.
Anyway, so you didn't slowplay your flopped house and "only" picked up 3BB from pre-flop. Personally, I am almost always happy to win a pot, regardless of size. I think betting out is fine, the reason being to find the case king if it's there and charge it to draw to a better house. I think all of betting out, check-calling, and check-raising are fine here, and since you just sat down it's hard to make the right decision, because which is best depends mostly on your opponents and the general texture of the game. In general though, you can't go far wrong by never slowplaying in LL HE (personally, I generally won't slowplay anything weaker than a flopped nut flush). Sorry you didn't get payed off.
>> A while later, a player who moved with me from a now-defunct $4/8 game opens for a raise in early position. This person has demonstrated very liberal raising standards. It's folded to me in middle position, and I three-bet with red Tens. Somewhat to my surprise, two late position players call three bets cold. The blinds fold, and the original raiser re-raises. We all call. The flop comes Jh9h8h, giving me an open-ended straight flush draw. The pre-flop raiser bets and we all call. The turn is another Jack. He bets and we all call. The river is a third Jack. He now checks. I bet, one of the late position players calls, and the others fold. Comments?
Pre-flop three-bet is fine, and I definitely wouldn't put in any more money after the raiser 4-bets it. On the flop I don't think you should lay-down. A heart is very likely no good, but I think your 6 non-heart outs for a straight are all good, as obviously must be your 2 straight flush outs. I doubt anyone has the flush already given the pre-flop action, unless someone has the AKh (although at low limits almost anything is possible). You are getting 13:1 on the call... pretty easy. You might actually consider a raise here, trying to knock out the two behind you and get heads up with the pre-flop raiser. Then a heart may very well be good, and you can also probably get a free card on the turn if need be. Just calling is fine too I think.
On the turn you're in trouble. Someone could very well have a house already, giving you two or four outs, depending on whether or not the ten is good. This time you are only getting 9:1 on the call, and you might get raised from behind. I'd be worried here. Raising is certainly no longer an option, but I think calling is still okay. However, note that the pre-flop raiser has yet to do anything but bet and raise at every single opportunity... do you really think he'd still be doing that into a field of four without an overpair. I doubt it, but it's possible.
I personally think the river bet is terrible. It is so likely given the action that you are up against an overpair or the case jack that I doubt you can win this. You'll probably get paid off if you are winning because the pot is so large, but basically I'd just check it down and hope.
Overall, this was a fairly bizarre hand. What could the two behind you possibly be calling with the whole way. I doubt you won this, but it's possible. I'm guessing you got called by the pre-flop raiser who showed you an overpair, probably kings because he didn't bet the river. Or maybe everyone called your bet with nothing and you took it down; at low limits it's hard to tell.
Just my opinion.
>> My second hand after moving to a new $4/8 game. I'm in the small blind with Kd2d. There are five limpers, I call, and the big blind checks. The flop comes KK2 rainbow. I bet and everyone folds. The dealer mucks my hand before I can show it, but I announce what I had. The overwhelming consensus was that I should have checked the flop. Comments?
First of all, NEVER EVER announce or show your cards in LL HE. I suppose if you are super sophisticated you might be able to make showing your cards into a positive EV play (that's what it is after all... a play) by setting up something later on, but if you're that good you should be playing at higher limits.
Anyway, so you didn't slowplay your flopped house and "only" picked up 3BB from pre-flop. Personally, I am almost always happy to win a pot, regardless of size. I think betting out is fine, the reason being to find the case king if it's there and charge it to draw to a better house. I think all of betting out, check-calling, and check-raising are fine here, and since you just sat down it's hard to make the right decision, because which is best depends mostly on your opponents and the general texture of the game. In general though, you can't go far wrong by never slowplaying in LL HE (personally, I generally won't slowplay anything weaker than a flopped nut flush). Sorry you didn't get payed off (at least you didn't get outdrawn).
>> A while later, a player who moved with me from a now-defunct $4/8 game opens for a raise in early position. This person has demonstrated very liberal raising standards. It's folded to me in middle position, and I three-bet with red Tens. Somewhat to my surprise, two late position players call three bets cold. The blinds fold, and the original raiser re-raises. We all call. The flop comes Jh9h8h, giving me an open-ended straight flush draw. The pre-flop raiser bets and we all call. The turn is another Jack. He bets and we all call. The river is a third Jack. He now checks. I bet, one of the late position players calls, and the others fold. Comments?
Pre-flop three-bet is fine, and I definitely wouldn't put in any more money after the raiser 4-bets it. On the flop I don't think you should lay-down. A heart is very likely no good, but I think your 6 non-heart outs for a straight are all good, as obviously must be your 2 straight flush outs. I doubt anyone has the flush already given the pre-flop action, unless someone has the AKh (although at low limits almost anything is possible). You are getting 13:1 on the call... pretty easy. You might actually consider a raise here, trying to knock out the two behind you and get heads up with the pre-flop raiser. Then a heart may very well be good, and you can also probably get a free card on the turn if need be. Just calling is fine too I think.
On the turn you're in trouble. Someone could very well have a house already, giving you two or four outs, depending on whether or not the ten is good. This time you are only getting 9:1 on the call, and you might get raised from behind. I'd be worried here. Raising is certainly no longer an option, but I think calling is still okay. However, note that the pre-flop raiser has yet to do anything but bet and raise at every single opportunity... do you really think he'd still be doing that into a field of four without an overpair. I doubt it, but it's possible.
I personally think the river bet is terrible. It is so likely given the action that you are up against an overpair or the case jack that I doubt you can win this. You'll probably get paid off if you are winning because the pot is so large, but basically I'd just check it down and hope.
Overall, this was a fairly bizarre hand. What could the two behind you possibly be calling with the whole way. I doubt you won this, but it's possible. I'm guessing you got called by the pre-flop raiser who showed you an overpair, probably kings because he didn't bet the river. Or maybe everyone called your bet with nothing and you took it down; at low limits it's hard to tell.
Just my opinion.
I almost never show down a hand when I win a pot uncontested. I only do sometimes when I do something like flop a freaky full house. :^)
We have one panelist who says the second hand is fairly unremarkable, and another who say it is fairly bizzare. Interesting. :^)
You might actually consider a raise here, trying to knock out the two behind you and get heads up with the pre-flop raiser. Then a heart may very well be good, and you can also probably get a free card on the turn if need be. Just calling is fine too I think.
I did consider raising on the flop, basically for the reasons you suggest. The pot is large enough that I want to maximize my chances of winning it.
I personally think the river bet is terrible. It is so likely given the action that you are up against an overpair or the case jack that I doubt you can win this. You'll probably get paid off if you are winning because the pot is so large, but basically I'd just check it down and hope.
Here I have to disagree. If the pre-flop raiser has a hand that beats mine, I don't think he's slowing down now. He can't be going for a check-raise; who's going to bet into him? If one of the other players has the case jack, he probably raises the turn. If one of the other players had an over-pair, he likely would have raised pre-flop. They did have two chances to raise pre-flop. About the only hand that beats mine that they could have played the way they did up to that point is two queens, and two queens has to at least consider raising that flop. I have to think my hand is probably good at this point.
I guess this wasn't clear: the pre-flop raiser folded on the end. The guy who paid me off had Q9. So making sense apparently wasn't a consideration. :^)
What if you flop a monster, how are you going to extract the maximum out of your oppenents if you don't have any money yourself?
What if you flop a good hand, how do you protect it?
I really disagree with your friend's theory here. It is true that in poker you often get drawn out on, but it is also true that sometimes your hands hold up. IMO
Derrick Ashworth
I just hope your friend sits down at the table I'm playing this weekend.
A disastrous series of sessions last weekend have provided ample fodder for a questioning how I play certain hands. My most common 'premium' hand that I drew during these sessions was A-K (9 times, vs aa once and kk twice). My usual play with A-K is to raise. I am usually expecting to make a pair and want to play it in a short field.
The game I was playing in last weekend was 1-4-8-8 holdem with 1 and $2 blinds. The game was very loose and very passive pre flop. One of the first things I picked up on was that raises, especially from late position, did nothing to limit the field. After getting drawn out on at the turn and river the first three times i had A-k, i stopped raising with it. My take was that i was going to have to show down the best hand and that, though a good drawing hand, A-K is usually just that, a drawing hand.
In retrospect, I am not sure i made the right decision. I won twice with the a-k and they were small pots both times. I am wondering if i had raised and built the pot if the return might have offset what i lost on the hands that did not improve. Any thoughts on A-K in very loose and passive games?
As other people have commented, just because you lost with slick doesn't mean you should stop raising it. Howerver... realize the point of raising with AK is not because you figure to have the best hand... in general you do not. I believe over 50% of the time someone has a pocket pair, and they are presently in the lead over AK (I'm not sure about this though). Raising with AK is basically the ultimate semi-bluff. You are happy to pick up the blinds, but if called you have outs.
In a loose-passive game still raise slick every time, because you are certainly getting more than your fair share of the pot. The thing is, you probably need to check-fold the flop unless you hit (pair or better, gut shot WITH ODDS, or a nut flush draw). The reason AK can be such a bad hand for many LL players is they refuse to lay it down. Blast on the flop if you hit, fold if you miss... that's how you make the money with AK.
One final point... AKs is significantly better than AKo is a game like this. You should still raise both, but in a loose-passive game with lots of pre-flop calling and lots of showdowns top pair isn't good nearly often enough. AKo is still a significant money winner, but you will get paid off big by lower flushes with AKs all the time in games like this. Something to keep in mind.
Stay tight, stay aggressive, and don't worry about short-term results.
Just my opinion.
Gotta agree with HUMMER. In the long run, AK will make you money in HE. I play 3-6-12 and 4-8 (the only games around) and I'm constantly up against loose/passive players (mostly tourists). I raise pre-flop, and if the flop sucks, I'm outta there. If A or K or more come with the flop, I'm rammin' and jammin' all the way to the river. Good luck to ya!
I agree wholeheartedly that AKs is far better that AKo once the game goes really loose. When 6-7 players see the flop, you will probably win "just" 25% or so of the pots with AKs, and many of these times, it will be the flush which gets you the pot.
Even having a backdoor flush on a 'scary' K-Q-8 makes you able to handle a bit more heat on the flop, with many outs and semi-outs on the turn if behind.
Lars
"I agree wholeheartedly that AKs is far better that AKo once the game goes really loose. When 6-7 players see the flop, you will probably win "just" 25% or so of the pots with AKs, and many of these times, it will be the flush which gets you the pot."
But of course AKs is better then AKo. Anyone who would disagree would be plain stupid. By the way, the majority of the pots you win with AKs or AKo will be from top pair.
This hand should be raised pre-flop either suited or off suit. The only exception would be for deception purposes against regular opponents...
3-6 HE, with a half kill (5-10). Very loose, usually passive (pre-flop) game. I've found success in this game by playing very tightly pre-flop, and then playing my hand fast when the flop hits me.
Subject hand: Kill pot, killer is a charter member of the any 2 card club and the SB. I have pocket ducks, and decide to call pre-flop in mid-position. With this table, if I flop a set, I should be able to build a huge pot; if I miss it's an easy fold. 5 or 6 of us see an unraised flop of K-7-2, twotone. I love this flop, even with the two clubs. Check, check, check, and then the player two to my right bets. I pause, wondering if I should call or raise. This guy has raised pre-flop with good hands, and then played cheese like K4o and 8-5o after several premium hands (AKo, AQs, JJ) either got cracked or didn't get there. I put him on a weak K (no raise pre-flop) or two pair. I decide to call, figuring the checkers behind me will probably call one bet but not two. And they do. We see the turn 5-6 handed.
4h hits the board. Check, check, check, flop bettor bets 10 and now I instantly push in 20 for the raise. Fold to the any 2 card killer, who whines, "You probably have me beat, but I'm gonna call." Calls two big bets cold. Yes! Fold to the bettor, who takes some time looking at his hand, the board, his hand, the board, and then calls, with obvious reluctance. Three of us see the river.
River is Th. Fabulous board for me. No flush, no straight, no raising back at me, I gotta have the best hand. Checked to me, I bet 10. Killer calls with a "I hafta see your hand." Love this game!! Remaining player now does the-look-at-hand, look-at-board-thing, mumbling to himself about my possible hands. Player not in hand says, "He's got a set of 4's; that's when he raised." Player says, "Naw, don't think so." More internal mumbling and then he announces, "He's got to have a set of 2's." How does he know ?! If he calls, he's got me beat, right? Must have a bigger set. He calls. Damn !!
I turn over my set, remarking, "Do you have x-ray vision or what?" Any 2 card killer turns up his Q4h (what??), and my absolutely correct reader throws his cards face down into the muck!! He said I had to have the set of 2's, as he had K-4o (again!), so I couldn't have had 4's. Gee, I could have had K7, or 77, or 72....
He put a perfect read on me, yet called with his losing hand. WTF ?! Had to leave this tremendous game, as it was past pumpkin time.
But I keep wondering why this guy called me when he put me on a hand that had him beat. Plus, the any 2 card killer was also right; I DID have him beat and he called anyway (twice!!). Thanks for the donations, guys. Gotta love it......
>> Subject hand: Kill pot, killer is a charter member of the any 2 card club and the SB. I have pocket ducks, and decide to call pre-flop in mid-position.
Given how poorly your opponents played this post-flop I think it actually was marginally positive EV to play this. In general though, you probably shouldn't.
>> With this table, if I flop a set, I should be able to build a huge pot; if I miss it's an easy fold. 5 or 6 of us see an unraised flop of K-7-2, twotone. I love this flop, even with the two clubs. Check, check, check, and then the player two to my right bets. I pause, wondering if I should call or raise. This guy has raised pre-flop with good hands, and then played cheese like K4o and 8-5o after several premium hands (AKo, AQs, JJ) either got cracked or didn't get there. I put him on a weak K (no raise pre-flop) or two pair. I decide to call, figuring the checkers behind me will probably call one bet but not two. And they do. We see the turn 5-6 handed.
In my opinion, this call was TERRIBLE!!! It is so likely that you are up against a flush draw here that you should raise almost every time. Not only will they call the single bet, the clubs are correct to do so becuase they have odds. Remember, you make money at poker when your opponents make mistakes... you need to raise to give them the chance to make a mistake. You'll get just as much money in on the flop with a raised pot and 3 players as in an unraised pot with 6 players, but you prefer the former becuase you are less likely to get outdrawn. You might slowplay top set here, but even that is probably a bad idea, and your hand is even more vulnerable than three kings because of higher pairs drawing at sets. I think you should raise here everytime.
>> 4h hits the board. Check, check, check, flop bettor bets 10 and now I instantly push in 20 for the raise.
Instantly? You almost definitely don't want to slowplay here, but you don't have to bet so confidently. LL players are remarkably inatentive, but they do know the difference between a happy raiser and a marginal raiser.
>> Fold to the any 2 card killer, who whines, "You probably have me beat, but I'm gonna call." Calls two big bets cold. Yes! Fold to the bettor, who takes some time looking at his hand, the board, his hand, the board, and then calls, with obvious reluctance. Three of us see the river.
I love how LL players protect their kill.
>> River is Th. Fabulous board for me. No flush, no straight, no raising back at me, I gotta have the best hand. Checked to me, I bet 10. Killer calls with a "I hafta see your hand." Love this game!! Remaining player now does the-look-at-hand, look-at-board-thing, mumbling to himself about my possible hands. Player not in hand says, "He's got a set of 4's; that's when he raised." Player says, "Naw, don't think so." More
That player could be banned from the game... he made a comment that could very well have cost you a big bet. Unless he was a real contributor I'd complain about him.
>> internal mumbling and then he announces, "He's got to have a set of 2's." How does he know ?! If he calls, he's got me beat, right? Must have a bigger set. He calls. Damn !!
Also unacceptable... you may only comment on a hand if you're in it AND it's headsup. At least, I think those are the rules, and if they're not they should be.
>> I turn over my set, remarking, "Do you have x-ray vision or what?" Any 2 card killer turns up his Q4h (what??), and my absolutely correct reader throws his cards face down into the muck!! He said I had to have the set of 2's, as he had K-4o (again!), so I couldn't have had 4's. Gee, I could have had K7, or 77, or 72....
>> He put a perfect read on me, yet called with his losing hand. WTF ?! Had to leave this tremendous game, as it was past pumpkin time.
He may very well have been suggesting that you have a set of 2's in an attempt to read your reaction to see if you really did. Other than that, there is really no reason to guess what a player has outloud.
>> But I keep wondering why this guy called me when he put me on a hand that had him beat. Plus, the any 2 card killer was also right; I DID have him beat and he called anyway (twice!!). Thanks for the donations, guys. Gotta love it......
If he's good he read from your reaction that his guess was wrong and thought his two pair was good. In general though, it's not worth trying to understand most LL players. They do remarkably stupid things all the time, and if you asked them why they'd probably give a completely illogical explination. Remember, most of these guys aren't trying to figure out what you have, and some of them have trouble figuring out what they themselves have. It's best to just smile, nod, and take their money.
Just my opinion.
P.S. If he really knew what you had then calling is wrong. He should fold if behind or raise if ahead.
Hummer,
I agree that my preflop call was marginal; as I said in my post, it was also a hand I could (and have) fold unless it hit.
Now, IMHO, my call of the flop bet could be viewed as weak, maybe tricky ;>), but not TERRIBLE. I made a conscious decision to just call, to keep the potential limpers in. I also had planned to call any bets in the event a club hit on the turn. My read was that no one with a club draw would fold for two small bets, but they would probably not call two big bets cold on the turn. This is probably in the category of "It depends."
Good observation on the "instant raise" of the turn bet. Generally, I try to maintain the same timing and motions for all bets and raises, but I know I pushed in my raise nanoseconds after the turn bettor. Something to work on.
And your observations about LL players....hey, I'm an LL player! Thanks for your input.
Paul T.
3-6-12 loose/passive(not me, the others) tonight. I'm on the button and get A 7 offsuit. 6 callers including me. Flop is A Q A. Check around to me. They're looking to see who has the ace. I have two options, check to hide what I have. Or bet the $3 and see if any stay. I check. 4th street is a 6. They check around again, but I'm not letting them off this time, I bet $6. 2 callers and the river is 9. The small blind bets $12, other guy mucks, I raise $12, he calls. I turn over the ace, he mucks. My question is: Was that the right move to check after the flop came A Q A? I'm afraid that if I bet, I wouldn't have any callers, or, just one and lose those extra $$$ on 4th and 5th streets. Thanks guys....
I would have folded before the flop, bet the flop, bet the turn, and checked the river.
Derrick
I don't think playing A7 on the button in a 6-way unraised pot with loose-passive players makes you a loose player. I believe I read Abdul somewhere (sorry Abdul if it wasn't you) saying he'd call on the button in these circumstances all the way down to A3. I don't necessarily disagree, though it's obviously not going to show a big profit in the long run. I think it's a pretty reasonable call if you are a player that can fold top pair in the right circumstances.
I could be wrong, but I think you might be referring to Abdul's criteria for opening (not calling) on the button. If everyone folds to you, then Abdul advocates raising, not calling, to steal the blinds.
In any case, I think it's a bad idea to call from the button with Axo under any circumstances. Your hand is terrible multiway, and in a loose-passive game, about as bad as you can get, because you'll also have other people limping with A-weak/moderate kicker (maybe even strong, especially from early position). Not only might you be hopelessly dominated, but anyone else out there with an A (and with 6 opponents, that's very likely) takes an A out of the deck that is so critical to your chances of winning. It's either raise to steal the blinds/get heads-up or fold.
Comments?
Kevin
Waiting for a seat I'm sitting in a classic 4-8 Hold Em' game.
I have AJ UTG, I limp, 5 other limpers including the blinds.
Flop is J 9 8
I bet, 3 callers.
Turn is a J.
I check, button bets, I raise, one lady calls two cold, other limper folds, button calls.
River is a 9.
I bet...lady looks at her hand and says "I don't think he has anything" and calls. Button calls.
I show Jacks full...she shows pocket fours. She was playing the board. We nicely explained to her why she didn't have a hand...
Gotta love it.
>> I bet...lady looks at her hand and says "I don't think he has anything" and calls. Button calls.
>> I show Jacks full...she shows pocket fours. She was playing the board. We nicely explained to her why she didn't have a hand...
What's wrong with you?!?!?! You're helping bad LL players improve their game and making it harder for decent LL players like me to make a profit... shame, shame, shame. (;
Considering the obscene amount of money to have to pay to play in those games (e.g., $3.00 every time you get the button), it is a wonder that you are up any amount of $.
I have a friend who plays in northern California. They have a $3 button charge up there, but only $1 is dropped, the other $2 is considered a live bet. So, it's not quite that bad.
Sorry, I should have added that this is for the $2-4 game. You put up $3 for the button, $1 is dropped then the other $2 is treated just like the BB. I don't know what the charge is for 3-6.
I stated this question in general HE earlier, but feel that maybe this is the right forum. When is it a good idea to look at your cards (for advertisement value), as suggested in WLLHE? What do average players think of this move? If this is always a bad idea then why is it mentioned Jones' book?
I guess the answer is to look at your cards when it will fool your opponents into making mistakes.
Players typically need to look at their cards to see if they hit their little kicker or to see if they made or have picked up a draw. They don't need to look at their cards when they're paired or have two suited, or have something similarly memorable like AK with a king-high rainbow board.
If you know when your opponents might expect you to look at your cards you might be able to create a reverse tell. There's a post buried in the archives about a play like this, where a player flopped a big flush and checked his cards before raising. His opponent interpreted this as evidence of no flush, and jammed without one. Great play.
But players can use these tendencies against you, as when you want to represent a big hand but forget to look at your cards. Your opponent might think: "he'd try to fool me if he had it." I prefer not to project any tells.
imho , looking at your cards, stacking checks(pretending to prepare to bet), can possibly help you fool a weaker player, who you will beat anyway, but a better player will consider it sophomoric, and potentially use this against you in ways you do not understand(that's why she is a better player)..gl...jmho
This clarifies some of my other shorthanded issues... I'd prequently 3 Bet with any decent ace (i.e. A7o and better) shorthanded...
So this isn't a major mistake (atleast some of you agree ;-) )
Humm, my thinking in this hand is that i shouldn't have posted the results as quickly.. It would have been interesting to see how many would have orderd me to suck out when they didn't know that my opponent held AA...
Anyway, just drunk ramblings from me... Keep killing em...
Sincerly, Andreas
>> Humm, my thinking in this hand is that i shouldn't have posted the results as quickly.. It would have been interesting to see how many would have orderd me to suck out when they didn't know that my opponent held AA...
Actually, with a board of 3578 rainbow you have almost a nut low. The only hands that you are actually beating at this point are 24, 26, 29, 2T, 49, 4T, and 6T... none of which are really likely given his raise. Anything else and he has a straight, a pair, or better overcards. In general any 6, 9, T, or J is an out for you, giving you 14 outs out of 46 unseen cards, so even if he doesn't have aces you still sucked out on him. That he had aces is no different from him having kings or queens or even 35. The only difference is that you are drawing to fewer outs, but on the turn it is about 99% at least, I'd say, that you're behind, and not much is going to change that.
10 handed HE 3/6 game. I hold QQ in EP. UTG calls, i raise and only BB calls, as does UTG
Flop: 883 rainbow.
BB bets out, UTG calls, i raise (?), BB three bets, UTG folds.
What's your action here? You dont know anything about BB; he just sat down.
If you call, what would you do if turn is a blank and he comes betting out?
Thanks
you need to guess whether he is the type that would lead with trips. most wont at 3/6. until i knew better id call him down since the pot is big.
no read huh?... that makes this tough...
4-betting is almost definitely wrong unless he turns over his hand, so I guess we should consider folding and calling...
I count 12 small bets in the pot... suppose you call and catch a queen on the turn... a probable course of action is he bets out, you raise, and he calls and the river is check-called... this nets you another 3 big bets or 6 small bets... so you are paying 1 small bet on a 22.5:1 shot at winning 18 small bets...
so the question is, what do you think the odds are that you're winning right now... I realize that LL players tend to not bet out trips, but they also tend to not 3-bet with bottom pair... I suppose he might have 3x and be "putting you on slick" (afterall, do people raise anything eles pre-flop?)... but I think you will be shown trip 8's here almost everytime...
it goes against all my instincts and gut feelings, but I think you might be able to lay it down here...
however, you can't be going that far wrong by calling either... but if you miss and he comes out firing again on the turn you probably have to lay it down, especially if an overcards falls...
so suppose the turn is an offsuit jack say and the BB bets out again... now there are about 7 BB in the pot and you will probably have to call another one the river if you call here... that's 2 BB to win 8... if you think he is at least 1 in 4 not to have trip 8's then you can call, but again, against a random LL opponent I don't think they 3-bet an 883 flop without an 8 or a big overpair (like aces or kings)
Just my opinion.
"...if you think he is at least 1 in 4 not to have trip 8's then you can call, but again, against a random LL opponent I don't think they 3-bet an 883 flop without an 8 or a big overpair (like aces or kings)"
Indeed, I cant think of one single opponent in LL that would 3 bet in this situation without 8 or big overpair (except maniacs)
Thanks for the comments
Living in South Louisiana gives me a great opportunity to play at 5 different casinos within 1 1/2 driving distance. I run into all kinds of players from loose/passive/aggressive (the tourists), to tight/passive/aggressive (the locals). My question is: What would you rather play against? I find that against loose/passive/aggresive the money swings are greater, but the long-term gains are nice. While the locals are easier to read, you don't make as much, AND don't lose as much either. I play Sklansky's tight/aggressive strategy, but I vary it when I'm up against the rocks. What do you say about this?
Obviously, I'd rather play against the tourists. I'm not even sure this is debatable. It's better to play against worse players. Ask yourself this: how many loose tourists routinely leave a winner? Compare their losses with the losses (or possible wins) of the tighter, more aggressive locals. Over the long run this additional money will make it's way into the racks of the more skilled players. My goal is to win money over the long run (months, years). What happens from day to day doesn't worry me too much. If it worries you, you need to move down in limits or else take a second job to increase your bankroll.
It doesn't worry me. I'm just throwing out a topic for discussion.
the passive players give you the best results as they pay more for their draws than you do and dont charge you when you are beat.etc. the looser they play the tighter to an extent you need to play as one pair wont win very often as it does in shorthanded pots.
I'm one of those tourist you talk about. I play in Biloxi and Marksville regularly. I play the tight agressive game also. I prefer the loose passive game myself. To piggyback on whay Ray said earlier, I tend to call a little looser with suited connectors etc because the payoff is great when they hit. I will slow down with big pairs etc.
sorry john b, you are not one of those tourists we talk about. when we talk about the tourist it is the person that doesnt read forums and books. its one who just plays without much thought behind his game. you are you are perhaps a person who plays less often and for fun but happens to win because of doing the research.
Hey John b, like Ray said, when I speak of the tourist, I'm talking about the guy from Texas in town to gamble, and who plays about 90% of his hands. Of course, I know some locals who play the same way.
Hands down, I want a table of loose passive players. They pay me off by starting hands they should not and staying too long afterward. I don't pay them off because I don't play hands beyond the point I should get out. Bottom line, they are in my pots, but I am not in theirs.
In general, I'd rather play with loose players than tight players in a full game.
In games that get shorthanded late at night, playing with players that are too tight becomes a lot of fun.
loose passive are by far the easiest to beat, for the most money, with the least risk. These are the games I seek out.
loose aggressive are good money makers, but your swings are a lot higher. If you don't have the bankroll, or the stomach, stay out.
tight passive players can be beaten, especially if you mix up your strategy, but it's hardly worth the effort as you won't beat them for much.
dave in cali
10-handed game.
UTG limps, as does the another EP, and MP raises. You dont know anything about MP, so assume he's a decent player.
All fold to you and you are in SB with AJs. Do you call?
Fold, the hand is probably dominated, you are hoping only for your suit to come.
Derrick
No I wouldn't. I'd be more inclined to call with a hand like this in button, despite the fact that you are already in with 1/2 small bet.
But I think this one is pretty close, and if you are in with two thirds of a small bet ($2 SB in $3-6 for excample), I think it might be a call. It's that close in my opinion.
Lars
Those hands look better than they are, especially from the SB. You'd be first to act all the way, and you're likely up against a big pair or Slick. Unless the flop hits you big, you're toast. In addition, the pot is small. I don't think it's that close, even if it doesn't cost you a full bet.
nt
Depends on how good a read you can get on the raiser.
Game is unusually tight (for 3-6) with usually 3-4 people seeing each flop. There are a couple of passive fish in the game, but otherwise, one of the better played 3-6 games I have been in.
I get Ad-Jd UTG. I limp, folded 2 off the button, he limps, cut-off limps, button limps, SB calls, and BB taks the free play, 6 players in the hand for 6SB.
Flop: 4d-5d-7c
Not bad, SB checks, BB checks, I check, next in bets, cut-off calls, button calls, SB calls, BB folds, I check-raise I think any A or J can be considered outs as well as the nut diamond draw 15 outs. Everyone left calls, 13 SB in the pot. I check raised here to build the pot if my flush comes, does anyone disagree with this play?
Turn: 4d-5d-7c-Js
I like it, SB checks, I bet, next in calls, everyone else folds.
River: 4d-5d-7c-J-sTc
I lead out thinking I was most likely ahead, and I am called. I turn over my J... What do you think my opponent had?
Results to follow,
Derrick
I lost to a set of 7's. I can't believe he didn't raise on the turn or river.
Derrick
It seems to me that you may have let too many people see the flop by limping with Ad Jd UTG. I wonder if you would have been looking a three 7’s if you had raised UTG. Do you think it appropriate to raise with such a hand UTG? I believe it is appropriate, but I would like to know what you think.
I believe your check-raise was aggressive, but not inappropriate.
Sincerely, William
Hi William,
It seems to me that you may have let too many people see the flop by limping with Ad Jd UTG. I wonder if you would have been looking a three 7’s if you had raised UTG.
It is tough for me to answer this question. I am not sure whether the 7's would have folded to a raise. I did not know this player well enough to answer this.
Do you think it appropriate to raise with such a hand UTG? I believe it is appropriate, but I would like to know what you think.
It is important to mix up what you do, but in general I do not raise with this holding from UTG. The reasons for this are: 1. You get less callers with a good multi-way hand. It is easy to dump this hand when you miss, and when you hit you can often extract extra bets in the 3-6 games I normailly play. 2. When you get called (or reraised), you are often dominated. You are often against pocket J's or better, or AK, or AQs. To all of these hands, I am a big dog. In a really loose passive game, I may limp reraise with this every once in awhile. Also, in a very very tight game I will often raise with this UTG hoping to steal the blinds.
These are just my opinions and are far from gospel,
Derrick Ashworth
Thanks Derrick, I have watched you play and I respect your opinion. Even so, I would raise more often than not with that hand, UTG, in the game you describe, but you are probably right when you say that he would not have folded his 77 pocket. :-)
I am in no way saying my style is superior to yours, I am just saying that I would have often (not always) played it differently.
I recently lost with a set of 4s (44 pocket) to a set of 9s (99 pocket). I had the lead all the way and he was passive. Once I saw his hand I was thankful, and very surprised, that he did not play back at me.
Regards, William
I am not saying I am right either, that's just how I normally play.
Where have you seen me play?
Derrick
Paradise 3/6
I watched for about an hour and without regard to how the cards fell, you were the best at the table; very level-headed and thoughtful play.
Later, William
thanks again,
Derrick
I would be silently thanking my opponent for the saved bets!
I would raise with AJs very often, but not necessarily every time, so I wouldn't criticize your preflop play.
The rest of the hand was pretty uneventful until your opponent showed how much money he was giving you.
I would usually raise with A-J unsuited UTG,but be a little more cautious if not UTG and pot was raised before me.
I was quite happy that I didn't get raised on any street. I would have lost one more BB for sure no matter where he raised me because I would have called him down on the river.
What do you think of my river bet? Was this overly aggressive? I think I would have lost the bet anyway because he had position on me. If I checked I would have to believe he would have found a bet then.
Derrick Ashworth
I think he might have saved you THREE bets by now going to war with you on the turn.
You bet out, with nut flush draw and a freshly catched top pair, ace kicker. If raised here, I think you should re-pop him. You could easily be ahead to KJ, QJ or a non-flush AJ. And unless he has a set, you still have tons of outs to beat him.
This is of course where he should four-bet/cap it, if he's got anything close to a read on you (I already "know you" well enough to know that you don't play 46 or whatever cards that were needed to have flopped that low straight, UTG or in any position as it happens.
This is the way I'd play em.
lars
Very good point Lars. Your right, I would not have laid this down, and I may (probably) would have came back at him on the turn.
Derrick
I don't think it matters whether or not you raise in this type of game. I believe that raising has positive EV; but, it increases your variance considerably in the short run.
I think you played this hand as well as it can be played. You just got beaten!
I really thought he was going to show you 7,5o. In these 3-6 games there are some really timid players/passive callers. You need to note who those players are and be aware that they could very well be calling with the best hand.
I have made that mistake too many times. I have bet my pocket queens into a King flop figuring to get raised if I don't have the best hand only to find some timid player calling me down with K3o.
You love those players in the long run; but, it can be frustrating.
el toro
I agree with your post. I have lost to some weird hands in 3-6. In this case I was very happy with the result. I know if it had been reversed, it would have been a bigger pot.
Thanks,
Derrick
I'll give you my take, Derrick, based on the nature of the play in the LL games in which I usually play.
First of all, I would be more prone to bet out that flop rather than try for a check raise. Even in a big field in 3-6, you cannot be at all certain that someone will bet and with a nut flush draw and overcards, I can certainly stand a raise. In fact, if raised by someone to my near left and I get 2 or 3 callers, I would consider reraising. Betting out might also get someone with something like A-Q without a diamond card to lay down, giving your Ace more equity. However, checkraising meets with my approval once you get the bet and several callers. To check/call would be horrible.
Betting the turn is a no-brainer.
Against one opponent at the river, you can certainly make the case for betting for value with top pair/top kicker. However, this guy has hung in there all this way for a reason. If he's on a busted flush, he's not going to call anyway, right? Was your river caller the original bettor on the flop? If so, it is possible that he limped from middle position with something like a small pair, and made a set, and for some reason now fears you flopped a str8 (hey, it's 3-6). He might have 7-5s, but should have re-raised on the flop with that, too.
However, you might want to consider checking the river, even with top pair. A couple of things might happen. Your sole caller might figure you for a bust, and 'value' bet his small pair, and you make the same $ without risking a raise. Two, he might bluff his busted draw, when he wouldn't call your bet. When he only calls, I still like your hand, buuutttt.....
My guess is that he has something like A-7s or maybe A-6s, and now for one BB at the river, he gets to look you up to close the action. If you are pushing a busted diamond draw, his one pair or Ace high might be good. 2nd choice would be something like K-J. He bets the flop with just overcards, hits the Jack on the turn, etc.
Now I'll peek to see how close I was to the truth. But on the inference that you wouldn't be posting this hand if there wasn't something unusual going on, I won't be surprised if the guy shows you JT or 54.
Pocket 7's!!! Aiyahh.
Even for the timid 3-6 players, this was awfully passive. Was this the original bettor? If so, and if I was holding his cards, I would 3-bet the flop. You of course call. Now on the turn, you are probably going to check to him, even when you hit the Jack. Now on the river, he's going to bet, and if you muck, the hand costs you $3 less than with you leading the way, and if you call, it costs you $3 more. Not a huge difference to your hand one way or the other, but I would have played his hand a lot faster, that's for sure.
What bugs me about these hands, is that when the guy just calls at the end, you are anticipating picking up the chips, and then he shows you a set. Hard to sometimes keep on an even keel after this sort of thing, but that's LL for you.
I may have lost more than that even. On the flop I would have capped the betting no problem, and I would have led the turn when I caught the J. I think this guy could have soaked me for at least 3 more BB.
I was actually quite happy with the hand because he saved me so much money. How could I complain?
Derrick
Hi, all
I played my first poker last night at the Muckleshoot in Auburn, WA. In two hours, fifteen minutes I was $95 ahead in a 4-8 Hold'em game. I had to bug out because the smoke was bad enough, my sinuses locked up and suggested it would be in my best interest to find somewhere that I could breathe oxygen for a bit.
First question is, is coming out $95 in a first game good, bad, horrid, etc. I felt my play was pretty on, I lost one hand I should have won when I simply stomped my dong. I misread the river and gave him a fours over twos full house to beat my threes over twos. I made a dumbass mistake and it cost me. That was my big screw-up of the evening, it went into my notebook as soon as I had time to write it down and I think I learned from it.
Second question is, I'm a non-smoker and the two most playable cardrooms in the area are pretty smoke intensive. I know there are other non-smokers out there who have found ways to deal with the smoke. I need suggestions so I can hang in the game for more than two hours at a time. Given the people I was playing, I may well have been able to keep up the win rate without any significant problems. I don't want to have to keep bugging out when it seems I've gotten the best of it even though I'm about the rankest novice on the planet. Suggestions as to how to deal with the smoke will be greatly appreciated.
Many thanks in advance, I'm looking forward to hearing from you all.
Winning $95 is good in the sense that you didn't lose money, but the result is really insignificant statistically. You made 6 Big Bets/hr which is probably 6 to 12 times what you are likely to average in your first 500 hours (if you play well).
Since you are only starting out I'd just say to keep meticulous records of all your results (limits, result, hours played) and leave your winnings in your bankroll so the losing sessions don't throw you off your game.
Good luck and see you at Muckleshoot one of these weekends!
Bill in Vangroovey
I live in the Seattle area and have found the low limit competiton here to be far weaker than any of the books I read prepared me for. Congrats on notching a win your first time out. I have only played a few times in the cardroom atmosphere, but I wasn't bothered too much by the smoke (I am a non-smoker). I stepped outside a few times and came home stinking like an ashtray, but the other players were pretty careful to not blow smoke into the middle of the table. Give Kenmore Lanes a try if it's close enough for you. One of my buddies regularly beats up on the 3-6 killpot game there. He has won $400 and $600 in less than 10 hour sessions. He usually only leaves with between $100-$200. They usually have a 4-8 killpot game too. There is a jackpot, which adds to the cost, but the competition is so weak it's easy to overcome. Sounds to me like you're way ahead of the game here. Does my description of the opponents here sound like what you played against? Sure, there are good players, but I could spot them almost immediately. I have heard that the game at Tulalip is quite a bit tougher, though. Where else do you plan on playing? Are you really close to Muckleshoot? If so, there's a very beatable 3-6 Hold'em game in Kenmore. Sunday's there's a no limit Hold'em tourney and the tables are used to play Omaha after that. They'll open up a Hold'em table if there's enough interest. I try to play once a month or so, during those rare times when I'm caught up with my homework. I'm interested to hear about the caliber of play you have seen. Maybe I'm way off base and primed for a good ass whuppin. Good Luck and I hope to see you there (I'll be one of the precious few showing you some respect).
As this was literally the first time I've played poker in a ring game and only the second time I've played since I played a couple of hands in high school, I can't give more than a very subjective view of the other players.
Given that caveat, here goes. On the two tables I played, out of approximately 24 opponents total, there were two gentlemen who consistently mucked, played hard when they kept a hand and consistently pulled in the pots. The two largest pots were won when it came head to head between a 2h-3h and 4h-5h playing in to a flop that finished out on the river. I congratulated them for winning the big pile of chips but from what I can see, Lady Luck gave them the money, I didn't see anything approaching competent play. The should have dumped the babies especially as early position as they both held.
From my reading and observation, it seems that "loose" is a bit kind in describing them. I watched another gentleman buying in at $40.00 a shot, go through five or six buy-ins and finally spent himself broke, threw a tantrum and stomped out. Another gentleman played every hand at least as far as the turn and most all the way through. He never missed a call and didn't have much trouble with raising when he was drawing into a straight or flush. He was fun to talk with however.
The general view of the rest of the players at the 4/8 level is that they were just there to spend some money, shoot the breeze with their friends and hang around long enough for the casino to comp their dinner. I don't think that even adding in the value of the comp, any of them even broke even. Of these folks, several were commenting on how yesterday was one of their better days.
Right now I'm trying to dry out and rescue my records of the hands so maybe I can get a bit closer to seeing just how many hands I shouldn't have played. As it sits right now, I believe I played eleven through to the flop and won nine of those. One was a complete bs hand off of the big blind, I bumbled into a small straight and managed to checkraise and bluff it through to the showdown. I think I played it "okay" but there's no way I would have even played it from the small blind, it was a 3-5os and the flop hit with 4-6-7. I probably should have bailed but the folks who were playing the hardest against me were the same one's who were bellowing for new decks and bragging about hitting 35th in the Emerald Queen Sunday Hold'em tourney when they consistently played 3-6os from a late position. I honestly felt I had them beat even with the tiny straight.
If I can get enough time away, I'll give Kenmore Lanes a shot. I need to find out exactly how a killpot works though before I dive in. To say I'm running with a small bankroll is to be very polite to the circumstances. I'll do some research and see if I can get a good enough hold on the killpot and then give them a try.
Many thanks for the reply. Jeff
I am an ex-smoker (quit about 30 years ago). Unlike most other ex-smokers, the smoke doesn't bother me at all. In the casinos that I frequent, I see a lot of players with small, battery-operated fans that they use to keep the smoke away. This is the only thing I can suggest.
Papio
ACK!! Thanks. I've got a little one left over from an old motorhome. It runs off of a couple of "C" cell batteries. I'll give it a shot, thanks much. Jeff
I realize it averages to six large an hour but on actual tally, I played only eleven hands as far as the flop and of those, I won nine of them. The only "cheater" hand I played was a 3-5os that flopped into a straight, playing from the big blind. I checked it to keep it open, got the straight and checkraised it through to the finish.
I also understand that the amount is statistically irrelevant, I didn't post much in the way of information as I was unbelievably fried by the time I got to the computer. Unfortunately, a badly aimed cup of coffee has managed to annhialate my actual hand record so all I have left is the hourly, 1/2hourly cash count record.
Thanks for the reply, I really do appreciate it. Jeff
First, winning $95 in your first play is quite good. Congradulations.
As for smoke it is a problem that many of us non-smokers have to deal with. You should be polite but insistent on telling people not to blow the smoke your way. I sometimes state that I have no objection to their smoking but not to share it with me. You may also want to get a small fan and look for the room with the best air ventilation.
Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to dig out my old battery powered fan and give that a test flight. Unfortunately the two rooms closest to me are the Muckleshoot Casino and the Emerald Queen. The EQ has pretty good smoke control but they pack a lot of tables into a fairly small room. I'm not sure what the problem is with the airflow at the Muckleshoot. Even when I was adamant about getting folks to blow their smoke away, there was still plenty of it in the air. Even from a non-smoking seat, I had a smoker on the right, everyone else at the table smoking plus smokers in the tables behind and across from mine. I don't think I saw more than a dozen non-smokers in the room the entire time I was there.
The fan seems like it may be the best place to start. Once I've got enough experience and cash, I will start moving up in spread on the games and I've noticed that at both places, the higher limit games are closer to the edges and have better ventilation. For now, I'm still making silly assed mistakes in the basic play of the game and making some epic screwups in betting. I'll fight it out with the smog until I'm more comfortable with the simple mechanics of the game and I have enough hours to get a real line on what I'm playing, how far I'm playing it and the stats on my cash-in/cash-out.
Many thanks for the response, I appreciate it. Jeff
i played at the hideaway once and it was a nice friendly place with little or no smoke.
they had 4/8 and 10/20 he when i was there.
brad
How to live through smoke:
(1) Drink a ton of water. Dehydration exposes allergies quickly - don't let it happen. Added bonus - more bathroom/fresh air breaks result.
(2) Fans are good.
(3) Take care of your eyes - Baush & Lomb makes an eyedrop called Opcon-A that just rules. Eyestrain/irritation = headaches = sinusitus = you go home early.
(4) Eyeglasses are better than contact lenses around cigarette smoke.
(5) Sit at a table end to reduce smoke-blowing neighbor chances.
(6) High-tech solution - these personal air purifiers work: http://www.dmart2000.com/weinairsup50.html
(7) Get the mgmt at the cardroom to do what they can if you're a regular. (Smokeless ashtrays, purifiers, better air filters, non-smoking tables, etc. if they have a player base, etc.) If everyone stays longer, they get more rakes/hourly charges and make more money. They should know this.
=========== Just take care of yourself first and get up & leave it it gets too bad. Playing at less than 100% is just dumb. Good luck.
Thanks for all of the suggestions. I'll give one of the fans a shot and then I'll look in to one of the air filters if the fan doesn't do enough. As for the rest of the things you listed, I hate to admit it but I knew them already, I just hadn't thought it through far enough to implement them.
I may have a bit better luck at the Emerald Queen than I will at the Muckleshoot as two of the floormen at the EQ are non-smokers and they seem to work pretty consistently when I'm able to get in. I'm guessing that I can get a few hours of play rather than just observation and I can get them to keep the end tables open rather than moving everyone into the center of the room. Of course, now with spring coming on, the windows are supposed to be coming open so if I can find loose and easy games at the EQ, I'll just stick with them. If not, I'll just keep battling it out at the Muckleshoot until I've got enough personal experience and cash to start the higher limit games which all seem to be on the outer ring of the tables.
Again, many thanks for the suggestions, sometimes just hearing it from someone else can be enough to make me jump up, scream, "dumbass", and remember that I haven't been doing them to begin with. Jeff
I've begun to question the correct play in a situation like the following to extract the most money. I'm playin 6-12 and if someone bets, they have it 99% of the time. I have Ah Kc... in early position and 4 callers including Small and big blind. Flop comes Ks 8s 2h. I usually always bet right out in this position to cost the flush draws some money to see the card. However I began to see that the people drawing would call no matter what the pot odds were. I decided to check, and it got checked around. Turn came a blank. I then checked again.. person to my left bet, and 2 more callers before me. I raise and the other 3 call. Turn comes rag I bet out get called by player to my left and the other two people folded (assumed they missed the flush).
My thinking behind this is if I bet out on the flop, I get 3 callers so there's 2 Big bets added to the pot. Then if I bet out on the turn, they'd call and I'd get 4 BB added. On river I would get 2. Total I would draw in 8 BB.
However if I check raise the turn, I get 10BB. And if someone happens to bet out on the flop, I check call and 2 more bets for a total of 12 would be added. If the flush card hits and someone bets, I fold.
I want comments on a hand I played unusually aggressive, but still came out on top with. Everything just seemed to fall into places as it revolved...
I'm dealt Ad8d in SB. One limper in early mid-position, then cut-off and button limps in too. We take the flop five-handed, unraised.
Flop is: As-Ts-6s. I've got no choice but to bet out. I want heads-up or three-way against obvious draws... I think I'm very likely ahead here, I'm only fearing AJ or AT from mid-limper.
BB drops, mid-limper calls, cut-off calls, button raise. The way I see it, the button is PROBABLY raising for a free card. With a made flush, he'd wait until the turn to pop it (even if it's a baby flush), as he's got great position.
I re-raise, trying to decrease the enourmous amount of outs I'm obviously up against, possibly making a hidden AJ or AQ fold in the prosess (though not likely hands given the action). I rule out AT on both mid-limper and cut-off as they'd raise the flop first chance they'd get, charging singleton spades and pair of aces to the max.
All call my re-raise. Very, very scary. The turn card brings 5c. Now, this card is as good as I could ever get, A2, A3, A4 are also drawing dead against me if anything but a board pair falls. I bet out again. All call. I'm beginning to like my situation a bit better.
River card sees a six of hearts pair the board, and I'm no longer a dog to A9 either. Unless a made flush on the flop, now unlikely, or AJ/AQ (a bit more likely), I'm now ahead.
I bet the river too. Possibly the worst move I made during the hand? I get one caller from the player I feared the least through-out the hand, the cut-off limper. I quietly pray for a pot split. I show my two pair, aces and sixes, with a ten kicker. He mucks.
I take down $142, 14.5BB, of which 12.5 went into the pot post-flop. I can't quite believe my own eyes. However, most of the moves in the hand came natural to me, even though it was unusually aggressive for my style.
Comments?
lars
>> I want comments on a hand I played unusually aggressive, but still came out on top with. Everything just seemed to fall into places as it revolved...
>> I'm dealt Ad8d in SB. One limper in early mid-position, then cut-off and button limps in too. We take the flop five-handed, unraised.
Easy call.
>>Flop is: As-Ts-6s. I've got no choice but to bet out. I want heads-up or three-way against obvious draws... I think I'm very likely ahead here, I'm only fearing AJ or AT from mid-limper.
I think you might actually want to check-fold here. Against a field of five you are almost definitely up against a singleton spade, maybe the made flush, and you have a middle kicker. Over time betting here might be a positive EV play, but I doubt it, and the varience is going to be very high because you will probably have to bet every round (as you did in fact end up doing). I notice that you give no player reads however... those would be very useful in this situation. Against loose-passive opponents I would be more inclined to bet for a few reasons... they are less likely to have you beat, they are more likely to just call with single spade on the flop and turn, and they are very unlikely to semibluff raise with say the king of spades. Against tougher or more aggressive opponents I would be inclined to give this one up... you will have to pay of AJ and the like if another spade doesn't fall because you could be up against a bluff. I don't think you're giving up much, if anything, by betting here, but just be aware that the varience on this play is high.
>> BB drops, mid-limper calls, cut-off calls, button raise. The way I see it, the button is PROBABLY raising for a free card. With a made flush, he'd wait until the turn to pop it (even if it's a baby flush), as he's got great position.
See... that's your problem. If you're in a game where people will semi-bluff raise or try to buy free cards then you probably shouldn't have bet out. If he's good enough to raise a single spade there's no way he'd just call with a baby flush. The only flush you can slowplay here is the nut... MAYBE the second nut... but if he held, say, the 89 of spades he'd just be giving up WAY too much not charging singleton higher spades to draw here.
>> I re-raise, trying to decrease the enourmous amount of outs I'm obviously up against, possibly making a hidden AJ or AQ fold in the prosess (though not likely hands given the action). I rule out AT on both mid-limper and cut-off as they'd raise the flop first chance they'd get, charging singleton spades and pair of aces to the max.
Hyper-aggressive, but maybe correct. I don't think there's any chance you'll get all the spades to fold... the main point of this raise as I say it is to get out the stronger aces. I suppose these silly LL players might be thinking their KQo broadway draw might be good if hit, but basically all you're going to do is knock out the weaker spades. I think the key here is how likely you think it is that the button actually had a hand or is just raising his high spade, maybe with middle pair or something. You might even lay it down here against a standard transparent LL player who you know has it, but depending on the player I think re-popping is okay too. Again, EV is close to 0, varience is high.
>> All call my re-raise. Very, very scary. The turn card brings 5c. Now, this card is as good as I could ever get, A2, A3, A4 are also drawing dead against me if anything but a board pair falls. I bet out again. All call. I'm beginning to like my situation a bit better.
You're in trouble. Unless these guys are super fish I think that you are probably beat. The king and queen or spades are almost certainly out there, you might very well be up against a slowplayed flush, you could very well be against a better ace or two pair... however, the pot is getting pretty big now so you can't really fold the turn unless a fourth spade falls.
So the turn blanks and you bet out again. Might as well I guess, because just about no one is folding at this point and you want to get paid off if you are actually ahead. You might try a check-raise to charge two full BB to singleton spades, just I don't really like that. One play worth considering is checking in hope that it gets checked around. I don't think better aces are folding now, so if you think there's a good chance you're up against one you might try to get to the river cheaply here, maybe catch on of you two outs (the 8 of spades is not really an out).
>> River card sees a six of hearts pair the board, and I'm no longer a dog to A9 either. Unless a made flush on the flop, now unlikely, or AJ/AQ (a bit more likely), I'm now ahead.
There's something you should worry about however. A plausable holding for your opponents at this point is a 6 with a high spade (although I don't know why they were playing it pre-flop). It may look like a rag to you
I bet the river too. Possibly the worst move I made during the hand? I get one caller from the player I feared the least through-out the hand, the cut-off limper. I quietly pray for a pot split. I show my two pair, aces and sixes, with a ten kicker. He mucks.
I take down $142, 14.5BB, of which 12.5 went into the pot post-flop. I can't quite believe my own eyes. However, most of the moves in the hand came natural to me, even though it was unusually aggressive for my style.
Comments?
Sorry, I accidently clicked "Post Message" before I was done.
>> I want comments on a hand I played unusually aggressive, but still came out on top with. Everything just seemed to fall into places as it revolved...
>> I'm dealt Ad8d in SB. One limper in early mid-position, then cut-off and button limps in too. We take the flop five-handed, unraised.
Easy call.
>>Flop is: As-Ts-6s. I've got no choice but to bet out. I want heads-up or three-way against obvious draws... I think I'm very likely ahead here, I'm only fearing AJ or AT from mid-limper.
I think you might actually want to check-fold here. Against a field of five you are almost definitely up against a singleton spade, maybe the made flush, and you have a middle kicker. Over time betting here might be a positive EV play, but I doubt it, and the varience is going to be very high because you will probably have to bet every round (as you did in fact end up doing). I notice that you give no player reads however... those would be very useful in this situation. Against loose-passive opponents I would be more inclined to bet for a few reasons... they are less likely to have you beat, they are more likely to just call with single spade on the flop and turn, and they are very unlikely to semibluff raise with say the king of spades. Against tougher or more aggressive opponents I would be inclined to give this one up... you will have to pay of AJ and the like if another spade doesn't fall because you could be up against a bluff. I don't think you're giving up much, if anything, by betting here, but just be aware that the varience on this play is high.
>> BB drops, mid-limper calls, cut-off calls, button raise. The way I see it, the button is PROBABLY raising for a free card. With a made flush, he'd wait until the turn to pop it (even if it's a baby flush), as he's got great position.
See... that's your problem. If you're in a game where people will semi-bluff raise or try to buy free cards then you probably shouldn't have bet out. If he's good enough to raise a single spade there's no way he'd just call with a baby flush. The only flush you can slowplay here is the nut... MAYBE the second nut... but if he held, say, the 89 of spades he'd just be giving up WAY too much not charging singleton higher spades to draw here.
>> I re-raise, trying to decrease the enourmous amount of outs I'm obviously up against, possibly making a hidden AJ or AQ fold in the prosess (though not likely hands given the action). I rule out AT on both mid-limper and cut-off as they'd raise the flop first chance they'd get, charging singleton spades and pair of aces to the max.
Hyper-aggressive, but maybe correct. I don't think there's any chance you'll get all the spades to fold... the main point of this raise as I say it is to get out the stronger aces. I suppose these silly LL players might be thinking their KQo broadway draw might be good if hit, but basically all you're going to do is knock out the weaker spades. I think the key here is how likely you think it is that the button actually had a hand or is just raising his high spade, maybe with middle pair or something. You might even lay it down here against a standard transparent LL player who you know has it, but depending on the player I think re-popping is okay too. Again, EV is close to 0, varience is high.
>> All call my re-raise. Very, very scary. The turn card brings 5c. Now, this card is as good as I could ever get, A2, A3, A4 are also drawing dead against me if anything but a board pair falls. I bet out again. All call. I'm beginning to like my situation a bit better.
You're in trouble. Unless these guys are super fish I think that you are probably beat. The king and queen or spades are almost certainly out there, you might very well be up against a slowplayed flush, you could very well be against a better ace or two pair... however, the pot is getting pretty big now so you can't really fold the turn unless a fourth spade falls.
So the turn blanks and you bet out again. Might as well I guess, because just about no one is folding at this point and you want to get paid off if you are actually ahead. You might try a check-raise to charge two full BB to singleton spades, just I don't really like that. One play worth considering is checking in hope that it gets checked around. I don't think better aces are folding now, so if you think there's a good chance you're up against one you might try to get to the river cheaply here, maybe catch on of you two outs (the 8 of spades is not really an out).
>> River card sees a six of hearts pair the board, and I'm no longer a dog to A9 either. Unless a made flush on the flop, now unlikely, or AJ/AQ (a bit more likely), I'm now ahead.
There's something you should worry about however. A plausable holding for your opponents at this point is a 6 with a high spade (although I don't know why they were playing it pre-flop). It may look like a rag to you, but pairing the board is almost always dangerous in LL, a somewhat underappreciated fact in my opinion.
>> I bet the river too. Possibly the worst move I made during the hand? I get one caller from the player I feared the least through-out the hand, the cut-off limper. I quietly pray for a pot split. I show my two pair, aces and sixes, with a ten kicker. He mucks.
I disagree. I think this is a good value bet. Because of the pot size you will almost certainly get paid off... however, it depends on the reactions to the six. When the river fell how did the players react? (you were watching them, right?) I don't think I'd call the river bet terrible, but this one depends highly on your opponents, probably more than any of your other decisions, and because you don't give any player characterizations I can't really judge this bet.
>> I take down $142, 14.5BB, of which 12.5 went into the pot post-flop. I can't quite believe my own eyes. However, most of the moves in the hand came natural to me, even though it was unusually aggressive for my style.
Glad it worked out for you this time. I think this style is fine, but just make sure you don't cross the somewhat fine line between solid tight-aggressive play and outright manical tendencies.
Just my opinion.
looks pretty standard if youve got a good read on your players. also with that scary of a board you can always check the river hoping to induce a bluff.
brad
Thank you all. I forgot to add the 'Feel free to flame away' sentence at the end of my original message, which I think would be appropriate on this one.
Because I agree: it's very borderline between solid tight-aggressive and outright maniac tendencies.
And some further information on the hand: It was played online, and I had little or no read on any opponents, except that I hadn't been particularly impressed with the quality of play around the table up until this hand.
What excites me though, about this hand, is that... I may be patting myself a little too much on my back here, it's the first time I've pulled off a play that I reckon might actually be what separates truly great players from the average grinder (which I've been for a while, though not for too long, I've only been playing the game for a year). Not saying that I am a truly great player, but rather taking it as a first step in that direction...?
I think one must have pulled off a fairly good move (and I don't feel that I usually make 'good moves', I usually just follow a pretty basic starting hand strategy and plays pretty straight-forward post-flop) when you make $5/10 players (notice, this is online, when the $5/10 is actually pretty tough) make SERIOUS mistakes. And no matter what people might have been holding here, there must've been some major mistakes from at least two of the players (some were probably drawing to the nuts though). Particularly, I find the two mid-limpers' call of my flop bet and then cold-call of my re-raise to the button's raise, interesting.
lars
i would guess K and Q spades for the two cold callers. i would guess its the button who played it bad here or just a case of everybody having a marginal hand (something like KJ with J of spades?)
brad
Man they don't come weaker or tighter than you Hummer.
I like the thought process and the aggressiveness of your play on this one. Your read if it was correct on the free card raise was most excellent! It was either a push it hard or muck it on the flop hand.
I think if there was a made flush you would have heard about it on your reraise from the button. The reason I think this is with two bets, if the flush was made, the button should know the bet pool is drying up and would want to collect now rather than later.
Good play!
I just recently turned 18 and have gone to a local card-room three times and over these sessions I am up about $200 (Is this good?). I am curious as to what you guys think I should document after a session? Winnings? Losings? Mistakes? Is it even worth while to document sessions and if so what do I include? All advice is much appreciated.
You are bound to get all ranges of advice. Some people simply keep track of their net profit/losses and little else. Others (mostly online players) keep records as detailed as to include their results with specific two-card hands (usually just the big ones like bullets, cowboys, and slick).
It is absoultely worth it to keep records, but how detailed depends (I think) on one major thing. Why are you playing poker?
As a living? You should probably keep detailed records on your own play as well as books on your opponents.
As a hobby or purely for fun? You don't really need to keep records at all.
To make extra money? Here you probably want to keep at a bare minimum a record of each session, including the following: limit, location, net gain/loss, and length of session... you might also want to include things such as you feeling about the game (loose, tought, whatever), the rake and jackpot drop if there is one, and other things like this. The main reason to keep records if you're playing to make money is that it's very easy to convince yourself you're a winning or losing player based on short term results. You really need about 1000 hours of play before you have statistically meaningful results, and unless you are keeping good records it's hard to know how you're really doing. The other reason this is important is to decide what limit to play once you get to about your peak skill level. You can't really tell if you're making more money at 5/10 or 10/20, say, until you've logged hundreds of hours at each, and unless you keep pretty good records you can't know where your hourly profit is better.
Good skill, stay tight.
P.S. Winning $200 is good, but you don't say the limits. Also, these results are statistically insignificant... try not to worry about them. Don't give up or convince yourself you're an expert until you have a large number of hours logged.
Typical 3/6 Texas holdem game, I'm in late position holding T9s. Two limper before me and I limp as well. SB and BB calls.
Flop: J J 8 r
BB bets. One limper calls. I call. Rest fold.
Turn: J J 8 2 r
BB bets. Limper calls. I call.
River: J J 8 2 7 r
BB bets. Limper calls. Would you raise or call at this spot and why? Comments welcome. I'll post the result in a bit later.
You HAVE to raise. If you are drawing out on a straight and you hit, you have to get maximum money in. I'm assuming because you posted, you probably raised, got reraised and you called only to be beat by the boat. You will make money on this raise over the long term.
>>Typical 3/6 Texas holdem game, I'm in late position holding T9s. Two limper before me and I limp as well. SB and BB calls.
In general you should only limp with a garbage hand like T9s on the button, and even then only if you're really good post-flop relative to your opponents. Given how you played this post-flop I think it's a money loser for you. Play tighter pre-flop until you get more table experience.
>> Flop: J J 8 r
One in your suit or none? If so, a jack or an eight? I know this seems irrelevant but in tought situations like yours the presense or absense of a backdoor flush draw will occassionally make the differerence between calling and folding. Also missing from your post is player characterizations. These are crutial to playing decisions and in their absense you'll have a tougher time making the right move.
>> BB bets. One limper calls. I call. Rest fold.
What kind of the player is the BB. Do you think he has a jack. If you think he's pushing 8 w/ a kicker or something you might want to raise here to buy a free card on the turn. Do plays like this work in your game, or will the BB call and then bet again on the turn?
There are 7 SB in the pot and you are drawing to 8 outs for the nut straight. However, if you hit you might still lose, and you'll probably lose big. Also, what about those players still to act when you call. If it looks like one of them might raise (going for chips or whatever) consider folding even though you have a decent hand.
>> Turn: J J 8 2 r
>> BB bets. Limper calls. I call.
Okay, so now there are 6 BB in the pot... you can probably call. However, watch out for the limper... what do you think he has. There are no obvious draws out... and LL players LOVE to slowplay their monsters (like J8o here) on the flop AND turn and then fire away on the river. The BB is basically claiming a jack here so what could the guy between you possibly have? Maybe he's a fish and is calling with an 8... or maybe he's good and planning to put a move on the river because he is pretty sure the BB is bluffing. It all depends, but in the absense of information I call here.
>> River: J J 8 2 7 r
>> BB bets. Limper calls. Would you raise or call at this spot and why? Comments welcome. I'll post the result in a bit later.
I'm guessing that you raised and the guy 3-bet with a boat so you regretted your raise. Don't be fooled by results. Raise here everytime. I can't image a limit game where raising is not correct. You raise basically says 9T but I think you'll get paid off by weaker hands all the time anyway. I suppose you could fold if one of your opponents turned over a better hand before you acted, but basically, if you can't raise what is almost the definitely best hand here than you'll have trouble being a winning Hold'em player.
Just my opinion.
First of all 10-9s is not a garbage hand, its a drawing hand. And in quite a few three six games I would rather have this hand than A-J, which I presume you might limp with UTG. Anyways, to fold this in the cutoff is ridiculous.
Maybe its a loser for most because they can't fold top pair.
I would raise to get more money in the pot. You have limpers and the BB tagging along for the ride. I only would have given SB credit for a hand and SB dropped on the flop.
I agree with Hummer and Mike.
I would have raised pre-flop (you shouldn't be doing much calling in late position), raised on the flop (as a semi-bluff), called the turn, and raised the river.
If you don't play those drawing hands when you have the position and odds to do so, you aren't getting the maximum profit. Playing only big pairs and big unsuited connectors is a sign of a tight/weak player. At the same time, playing some of those hands in a 3-6 game can have a negative EV because of the rake. Although those games served as good training for me, I don't play them anymore because they aren't profitable. The level of competition you encounter at 6-12 is no better, but the profits certainly are.
So on the river I made my straight on a paired board, I decided to raise. I am not worry about the limper since he's just calling all the way. My read on the BB is he has Jx, but it's very unlikely that his kicker paired the board (meaning full house).
BB thinks for 10 seconds and then calls. Limper mucks. BB turns over J7 and takes down a nice pot.
The moral of the story here is try to avoid the drawing hands as much as possible as it only adds higher standard deviation to your bankroll. Thank you for all the feedbacks.
I like your play, and I think there is definitely a place for this hand. Consider yourself lucky that he didn't reraise you.
Derrick
The moral of the story here is try to avoid the drawing hands as much as possible as it only adds higher standard deviation to your bankroll.
Played correctly, draws will also add considerably to your win rate. For me, the moral of the story is: don't be afraid to fold an open ended straight draw when there's a pair on board. Considering the size of the pot, the call on the turn was borderline.
James, you played it correctly. I might have raised the flop for a free card. You have to be pretty happy with the flop. Sure, someone could have a boat, but trip jacks that will pay you off if you hit your hand have to be more likely. As it ended up, you only had 4 outs, but in most cases you would have had 8 outs. HPFAP suggests that hands like 10-9s can even be played for 2 bets on the button in a multiway pot.
I would raise for value. Is there better than a 33% chance you are ahead, YES.
Again, just my opinion
Derrick
Raise.
The bb could have any jack, most eights, TT or 99 and the limper could easily have a big/medium jack, 99, A8 or possibly worse. The hands you are worried about are far fewer in number and, importantly, a significant percentage of those hands (or a signifcant percentage of the time some of those hands are held) would either have been checked by the bb or raised by the limper at some point.
Assuming you'll win one extra bet if you raise and will pay off any reraise, you need to win 2/3's of the time to justify raising. It's actually less because sometimes you'll win 2 bets (perhaps most of the time against these two players). The range of hands you're up against makes raising worthwhile.
you should have dumped your hand preflop,you weren't getting the rite price to begin with(9to1)
Raise, of course. I might have raised the flop.
Haven't read the results yet, but I imagine you didn't win.
Chris
So a number of people have disagreed with me that T9s is a garbage hand pre-flop. I agree that the "garbage" part was a bit excessive, but in general I think my point is correct. I understand that S&M, Lee Jones, and so forth say that it's playable from late position pre-flop, maybe even for a raise, but I was suggesting that at least at the beginning of your Hold'em career (as I'm assuming James is because he, like myself, is still playing low limits) it is better to muck a hand like this, except maybe with 5 or 6 limpers. The point is two-fold; first, at the very beginning the post-flop play is not developed enough to make T9s into a positive EV hand. Secondly, even when T9s does become a positive EV hand, it tends to be high varience. This is important not because high varience require bigger bank rolls... rather, at the beginning of your Hold'em career, it is usually important not to start a big loser because that leads people to give up, so high varience is bad for that particular reason. Basically, I think the best way to start off a Hold'em career is by being tighter than even most good LL Hold'em players, because you win a higher percentage of pots that way and the varience is lower.
Just my opinion.
Don't worry this is not a bad beat story!!! At Hollywood park on a 6-12 hold em game it went like this. I was in the small blind with 2 dollars committed to the pot. The under the gun player raises and two players cold call behind him. The other players fold and it gets to me and I hold pocket 3's. I was pretty sure that the big blind would only call. That would mean I would put in $10 in to a $60 pot. The flop comes down K-hearts A-hearts 3-diamonds. I check Big blind checks Original raiser bets two players fold I raise and get re-raised by the big blind (who is a weak tight player) Raiser calls and I call adding $54 to total $114 in the pot. Turn card is blank. I bet Big Blind raises Original raiser calls I call Adding $72 dollars to the pot for a total of $186 River come Q-diamonds and I check Big blind bets Original raiser raises and now the pot has $222.00 Without a re-raise, I am getting about 10 to 1. The question is what was the original raiser drawing to that allowed him to raise at this point? Maybe he was slow playing a monster? Maybe J-10 of hearts? Longshot pocket queens. What I really thought was the big blind was the type of player that would not re-raise before the flop with pocket A's or K's. I really feared the re-raise behind me and that is why I mucked um'. And it costs me a $222 dollar pot. Whatta ya do?
On the flop, you check raise UTG, which is ok. I'd have probably lead out instead.
On the turn, I think you should've gone for check raise instead, so the whole situation should clear up a bit as you show both BB and UTG that you have a real hand.
On the river, it depends on what kind of player UTG is. The way UTG plays this hand seems like he has either AA or KK.
You did what you thought was right at that time. If you never throw away a winning hand, you are probably never having a winning session.
If money wasn't an issue, you were getting good value for your call to hang around.
I doubt the guy has a straight if he is a decent player he wouldn't be going for the gutshot unless they are suited. I would say you should call since you might just be up against 2 pair. Someone most likely had bigger trips, but it's not worth folding to 1BB to find out you were wrong.