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I am starting to grasp the concepts of Omaha but I still need help...who doesn't?? :-)
I have read and read RZ's book and of course, it's well worth it.
Now I have been reading about the Hutchinson system of points for a while and could not find any information on it in the archive. Heck, maybe it's there but it's too hard to find. So if anyone could either explain it to me or tell me where I can find it, this would help a lot...thanks...
Nicolas Fradet (ThePrince)
On a side note, Mason and the others, a search engine would be a nice addition to the site...the archives can be hard to navigate through...
I tried it out, and so far so good. In the footnotes he mentions that it is meant for begginers to use to help establish some guidelines on what is a playable hand. There were some surprising answers. The dissapointment was that he didn't mention anything about playing in the blinds.
You are very correct in being suspicious. Most of what I did from that point on was based on feel. I may have needed to take the threat of trip A more seriously, but I didn't figure him for that hand. There was also the supporting role of a dead A. I also thought I had a good sense of that he would raise with just a pair of Aces. I probably forgot one or two details of the play of the hand that would clarify things, but I really don't recall as much as I had hoped. I also feel comfortable saying that this person wasn't a very good poker player. I noticed him making several mistakes throughout the night and I thought I had an edge over him with the situation being what it was. I think that he's a wild, action player and I wanted to toss some chips in against him at least twice that session when the odds weren't stacked high in my favor. I wasn't looking to be a dog, but if things were close, I didn't mind losing some chips. PS Thanks for taking the time to post
You might have a small edge of fifth if your read is correct, but you are a huge dog if he has two pair. Thus unless you are very very certain you are correct or there is a decent chance your opponent has no pair, this play cannot be justified.
Thanks. I was correct in my read and unfortunatly the miracle didn't happen. He did make his straight, I was very certain that he did, but I made a crying call at the end. Later on when I asked him what he thought his best play was, he cited that hand, so I think I've gained a long-term player. Looking back on it, I'd definately fold when he started firing away. I thought I might have a small edge and be able to read when he made the straight or two-pair. I misjudged how concealable his hand could actually be. Thanks for posting!
I also thought that I'd be a small favorite or a small dog. I'm glad that you've mentioned that I was a small favorite or a big dog. That'll help me out.
To were getting odd's to call, and he was getting odd's to call. But raising, you were only geting one to one so i would not raise. :) ron
David,
Sorry to hear the results. At least it was the Ace high flush you lost too. In my above post I was going note that if indeed this opponent did re-raise with Jacks and a four flush, expect to see the suited ace in there also. This would give him more outs and more of a reason to play the hand the way he did.
I was wondering how many people out there would play David's opponents hand the same way? Maybe Mason could comment.
Later, CJ
Hi, just a comment. Sometimes we over value raise's. I sometimes simbluff with a second best hand to try to win it right there or to test the water for a reraise and then fold. There are just to many reasons for a raise to believe that it is always from a better hand. Plus sometime I just DO IT. :) RON
What I found worked in my game was tending to be passive on 3rd with the intention of not taking advantage of their mistake, however large or small. But on fourth, if I hit my hand, I become super aggressive because I know that they'll call and make a HUGE mistake. This suits me because I can keep my fluctuations in $ down, but still make a great profit. As for K7K, I know in my mind that it has to be profitable, but I am very unsure of my high game until I get a huge edge, later on. I usually fold that hand if an ace is acting behind me. Would you think that this is too tight considering the game conditions?
I hate hands like kings, queens, or jacks in stud-8. Queens and jacks are even worse than kings, and should often be just plain folded. With an ace left to act behind you, folding (K7)K can't be that bad of a play. I guess the hand might be profitable, but this might be a time to limp and see what fourth brings before getting real aggressive with your pair and no low draw.
IMO, the only big pair worth a crap is AA, and it's better if it's split, or if your doorcard is a five or lower, making it look like you have a good low draw (which you very well may wind up with anyway).
I am not one for reducing fluctuations by not raising on 3rd, but in some instances it might be better to wait to raise till 4th or 5th.
Dave in Cali
Buzz, this is the kind of hand that would separate the O/8 novice from someone who has given the game some more thought. The big thing that would deter me from carrying on with this hand is that I am almost assuredly going to get whipsawed for several bets chasing a draw for half the pot. Yuck.
In all honesty, if I was last to act for one small bet on the flop, and I closed the action, sure. I would take one off. But in this case, it just looks too ugly.
I gave this problem to 3 or 4 of the more "knowledgable" players in the 4-8 O/8 game here over the weekend. Not ONE player even considered folding as an option. Half of them wanted to raise.
I've got to get back into that game more often! lol
Dunc:
I appreciate your reasoning above.
Hoever, let me ask you the following:
From a middle position, was Rick's pre-flop play justified, and how would you rated as a starting hand? No one seemed to address this issue though nearly all the posters agreed that the flop play is best folded.
Thanks,
Ivan
Ivan - I hope Dunc answers this for you, but let me also respond to your excellent question. Maybe someone will come along and correct me and we'll both learn something.
Ad-7d-Ah-6h is, I think, a playable hand, but it is a drawing hand in a full, loose Omaha-8 game such as Rick described. You still need to hit the flop, and chances are, you won't.
Your first reaction to the foregoing paragraph might be, "If chances are you won't hit the flop, why play the hand at all?" The answer is that you have "implied odds" when you do hit the flop. Although you are not likely to hit the flop, when you do hit the flop, you can make Ad-7d-Ah-6h pay off for you big time.
Why? Because when Ad-7d-Ah-6h hits the flop it will tend to make the nuts for high. That makes Ad-7d-Ah-6h an excellent pre-flop Omaha-8 hand, IMHO. (But still not good enough for a pre-flop raise from mid-position at a table where no one is folding to a pre-flop raise).
Not many hands in Omaha-8 are likely to hit the flop. The trick is to play hands that have a good enough chance that playing them (over the long haul) will be favorable. You don't want to be playing hands that have such a poor chance of hitting the flop that you lose so many pre-flop bets with them (also over the long haul) that you can't make up the difference in post-flop bets. And you don't want to be playing hands that are unlikely to be nut hands.
Raises depend on many factors, position, cards, opponents, etc. You can't, in general, just look at a given Omaha-8 hand and say it's a raising hand. Sometimes it will be and other times it will not. That's true of Ad-7d-Ah-6h. Sometimes it is a raising hand, sometimes it is not, depending.
In the situation Rick described, Ad-7d-Ah-6h does not sound like a raising hand. If a raise might cause all the other players to fold, (or all except one opponent to fold), you might want to raise. But Rick indicated that he didn't think that would happen.
(In addition, with a drawing hand at a loose Omaha-8 table, you want as many players in the hand as possible, so that when do you hit the flop you can collect from their loose calls after the flop).
Thus Rick chose to call with Ad-7d-Ah-6h, pre-flop. Seems correct to me.
Just my opinion.
Buzz
Sorry, Ivan, I was away yesterday and haven't had a chance to respond to your inquiry.
In a loose, passive game, I would certainly call with Rick's hand. I am hoping to make a flush or flop an Ace. My low is garbage.
In a tight type of game, I would even consider raising with this hand, if I felt it would get me heads-up with one maybe two players and my AA might have equity. IN this type of loose, game I want lots of limpers for the implied odds.
At one time, I didn't think position was of much importance in O/8, and I suppose in the really loose game in which I get into once in a while, it is not AS important as in HE. But this hand is a good example of postional value in Omaha. Rick comes in from middle position and when the action starts, finds himself in a vulnerable postion. I think he made the correct fold.
Thanks, Dunc.
Your response is appreciated. I enjoy reading your posts.
Ivan
Thanks, Buzz.
Your generous explaination and advice is appreciated. Keep up the good work!
Ivan
I've been trying to grasp the fundamentals of both Omaha split and high. Recently, I've learned to Hutchison System for starting hands.
I have a few questions about the Omaha high pointing system.
Tell me if I get it:
7h8c9hTc gets 15 pts QhJdTs8c gets 11 pts AcAh6sTc gets 17 pts AcQhJdJh gets 16.5 pts KsKh8c9d gets 13 pts
If not please explain, I'm somewhat confused about the straight points...
Second, how come a hand like 7h8c9hTc, which as I understood it, is a very good hand, only gets 15 pts (i.e. marginal)?
Third, How would you evaluate the playing hands by position ? for high? for low? (like hands with 25+ pts for early position in split...etc..)
Finally, Do you think this system is any good?
Thanks for comments,
Nicolas Fradet(ThePrince)
re: 7-8-9-10, this hand will either win a little or lose a lot. that is why its a weak hand. you are looking for a flop like 4-5-6. who will call you when that flop hits??? also, a flop like 8-8-10 can create an overpair situation, where if one hits, you could lose to a higher full house.
just my take
tootight.
A-4-5-K Omaha-8 quiz
1. You are on the button playing A-4-5-K-rainbow in a full, loose, passive Omaha-8 casion double blind ring game. Four players limp, pre-flop. W do you do?
a. call (also limp)
b. raise
c. fold
2. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet?
If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-4-5
b. 3h-6h-8h
c. 8-7-2
d. Qh-Jh-Th
e. K-Q-4
3. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet?
If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-2-9
b. 3-6-K
c. 3h-6h-8d
d. 7h-6d-Ac
e. Q-4-3
4. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet?
If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-2-4
b. A-2-6
c. 2-6-K
d. 3h-6d-8c
e. Qh-7h-3d
5. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet?
If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-2-6
b. A-K-4
c. 3-5-K
d. Qh-7d-3c
e. K-8-5
6. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet?
If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-2-4
b. A-2-6
c. Qh-Jh-Th
d. K-8-5
e. K-Q-4
7. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet?
If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-2-4
b. A-2-6
c. 3-6-K
d. 3h-6h-8h
e. Q-4-3
8. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet?
If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-2-9
b. 2-6-K
c. Qh-7d-3c
d. Qh-7h-3d
e. Qh-Jh-Th
The quiz is good food for thought. But I don't have the time to reply. I appreciate the quiz: I will do it on my own. Buzz -- thanks for you time.
Carl - I appreciate your response, as always.
To be very honest, I think it is a very difficult quiz, and requires quite a bit of thought, if you think A-4-5-K-rainbow might be playable from the button in a full, loose, Omaha-8 game.
If you do think A-4-5-K-rainbow might be playable from the button in a full, loose, Omaha-8 game, then IMHO you have to be playing some of those flops. But which ones? And if many of those flops are playable, the implication is, IMHO, there are situations where playing 2nd nut low hands must be profitable.
Not sure how you feel about playing 2nd nut low hands, and under what circumstances you think playing them might be profitable, over-all.
More will be forthcoming.
Buzz
Buzz,
BTW, for this hand I do think that you not only need loose players before the flop but loose AND un-aggressive players post flop. If the game often erupts with aggressive flop betting and raising, then this hand is not playable before the flop, even in this spot.
Regards,
Rick
Rick - I agree.
Buzz
Especially in a full loose game, I don't play a hand that requires me to flop two specific cards (a 2 and a 3) for me to have anything useful towards the nuts in either direction. I MIGHT play this if both the A and K were suited.
Did you really raise for value with this?
Dick
Dick - Thanks for your response. You are saying that A-4-5-K-rainbow is not playable in a full, loose Omaha-8 game, even from on the button, because you need both a deuce and a trey on the flop to continue playing after the flop. I respect your opinion.
If you flop either a deuce or a trey, but not both, (plus another low card or two) then the odds of catching the nut low are ten to one against you. Clearly those odds are not good enough to continue playing after a flop that does not have both a deuce and a trey if you strictly adhere to the rule of only playing hands after the flop that are nut hands or have good odds for nut draws.
You are probably aware there is another school of thought regarding playing 2nd nut hands in full, loose Omaha-8 games. Some very fine Omaha-8 players think that playing 2nd nut hands under certain circumstances in full, loose Omaha-8 games is profitable. (I'm not saying they are right or wrong, just trying to figure out how they think).
Regarding your question, "Did you really raise for value with this?"
The reason I phrased the question as I did was that I think some people might raise, pre-flop, with A-4-5-K-rainbow, perhaps as a sort of probe, perhaps for value, or perhaps for some other reason, and I wanted the question to make sense to these people.
But to answer your question, no, I wouldn't raise, pre-flop, for value with A-4-5-K-rainbow from any position. However, I might raise, pre-flop, with A-4-5-K-rainbow from the button if I thought I could steal the blinds, or from an earlier position if I estimated that a raise would get me one-on-one with the big blind. I think A-4-5-K-rainbow is a very good one-on-one hand. Although it's usually hard to get one-on-one in full, loose games, it's not impossible to get there with the right group of opponents).
And I might raise from the button with A-4-5-K-rainbow if I thought the raise would intimidate everyone into checking the flop to me. Sometimes it happens that a raise before the flop gets you a free look at the turn, or a pre-flop raise followed by a bet on the flop gets you a free look at the river when you miss the turn (against the right collection of opponents).
Just my opinion. Thanks again for your response.
Buzz
Buzz,
By not playing this type of hand before the flop you give up only a little if anything for the hand in question but I do think it helps your better hands make a LOT more money by showing your opponents a willingness to play once in a while with less than the nuts or nut draw.
I also agree that this is a good one on one hand in a tight tournament or higher limit ring game (in a low limit game look for another game if you are often one on one) and worth a raise in the right spots.
Regards,
Rick
Buzz - Thanks for responding to my post. I DO agree with your other reasons to raise. This hand would be far above average, with 2 high cards and 3 low cards, for an attempted blind steal. And the free card raise has merit too.
Perhaps I do play too tight. However, responding to Rick's point, I never have to show my opponents that I play less than the nuts, because they don't notice and they don't care. I'm sure that will change when I move up.
For me, not playing A45x in Omaha hi/lo is kind of like not playing ATo in hold'em. It helps keep me out of trouble.
Dick
Dick,
Two quick points before I shoot out the door.
You wrote: "However, responding to Rick's point, I never have to show my opponents that I play less than the nuts, because they don't notice and they don't care. I'm sure that will change when I move up."
I think they notice but it is subtle. You don't get a call here and there that others will get. Since you usually have the nuts this hurts your EV more than you would imagine.
”For me, not playing A45x in Omaha hi/lo is kind of like not playing ATo in hold'em. It helps keep me out of trouble.”
Remember this hand is A45K, not A45x. The king adds value where a nine would not. Also, the holdem hand AT played in the right spot is OK, but I agree that most players lose money with this hand.
Regards,
Rick
Buzz,
I'm just starting to work on my Omaha 8 game and appreciate the work you and some others are doing with your posts. But this quiz is worse than a SAT! BTW, MS Word is tough to control when moving around these lists so I often just identified my preferences in writing rather than putting them in order. Due to time limitations, I didn't check to see where I contradict myself.
1. You are on the button playing A-4-5-K-rainbow in a full, loose, passive Omaha-8 casino double blind ring game. Four players limp, pre-flop. What do you do?
I call in this type of game. In a tight game that suddenly gets this many limpers I fold since one or more A2 type hands are probably out.
2. If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
Note: By “bet” I assume you mean which flops do you call in this and the following questions.
c. 8-7-2 – I call with the inside straight draw and singleton nut low draw.
a. A-4-5 – I call one time hoping to fill up next hand.
b. 3h-6h-8h – I call hoping for a deuce but also liking an ace, which will counterfeit many lows. Note that since the flush is already made, a raising war is unlikely to break out since there is only one nut high.
I fold e. and d. in that order and won't raise on any of the above.
3. Same question.
a. A-2-9 – I call ready to bail if a not three low hits and I get pressure.
b. 3-6-K – I might raise with any 2, 7, K and even ace being great for my hand but calling is OK.
c.-3h-6h-8d – I call. I can't survive a turn heart and pressure unless I make a better low (which includes an ace).
d. 7h-6d-Ac – Marginal call since no card can come making the nuts.
e. Q-4-3 – I fold
4. Same question.
a. A-2-4 – raise and try to find out now if 3-5 is out.
c. 2-6-K – call since almost any low card improves your hand
b. A-2-6 – call with a shot at a nut low and a chance at nut or strong high.
d. 3h-6d-8c – call with two very good cards for you.
e. Qh-7h-3d – call with two very good cards. Not as good as d. above due to hearts and low not made yet.
5. Same question.
a. A-2-6 – call but you need to improve on the turn to continue against pressure.
b. A-K-4 – raise with top two and hope to get to see the river cheaply.
c. 3-5-K – raise with top two and second nut low draw to a wheel
d. Qh-7d-3c – call with two great cards. The rainbow board helps a lot.
e. K-8-5 – fold since you have little chance for a strong hand.
For calling d. is better than a. and for raising c. is better than b.
6.Same question
a. A-2-4 – call but proceed with caution.
b. A-2-6 – easy call to a nut low and a backdoor high straight.
c. Qh-Jh-Th – easy fold. Have I seen this before?
d. K-8-5 – fold. This is a two-way loser.
f. K-Q-4 – very easy fold
I like calling with b. better than a.
7. Same question.
a. A-2-4 – fold this one. I see few scoops here.
b. A-2-6 – call with good chance to make or backdoor a nut or near nut
c. 3-6-K – raise as answered in number 2. above.
d. 3h-6h-8h – call as answered in number 2. above.
e. Q-4-3 – just barely a call to probably half the pot. You have a very poor shot at high here.
The best call is b. followed by d. followed by e.
8. Same question.
b. 2-6-K – easiest call with many cards improving hand including an ace.
c.Qh-7d-3c – easy call with two great outs.
a. A-2-9 – call but you need to improve to continue past turn.
d. Qh-7h-3d – call but bail if bad heart and pressure comes on turn.
e. Qh-Jh-Th – easy fold without Ah
Rick - Thanks for your response. It's exactly what I hoped for. I've already started working on my direct response to you, but it will take a while to complete.
If you are going to play A-4-5-K hands, pre-flop, then you have to hit the flop often enough to make playing A-4-5-K hands worthwhile post-flop.
But which flops are playable with A-4-5-K hands?
Once you know what the four cards in your Omaha hand are, there are 17296 possible flops.
Of these, only 1572 of them are obviously playable with A-4-5-K-rainbow, if you insist on only playing nut hands and good nut-draw hands after the flop.
9831 flops simply miss, when you hold A-4-5-K in a full, loose game.
That leaves 5893 borderline flops. But where does one draw the line?
Most of the flops in the quiz are from this borderline group of 5893 flops. Makes it an extremely difficult quiz, but I think worth your while. The value is not as much in what I think the order should be for the various hand types (about twenty of them) within the 5893 borderline flops group, but in what you learn looking at the flops themselves.
For example, if the flop is 3-6-8 (rainbow), and you are holding A-4-5-K (rainbow), any deuce makes the nut low and is probably also a scooper for you. But that’s only four outs to make a nut hand! The odds are a whopping ten to one against catching a deuce! It simply can’t be worthwhile playing a flop of 3-6-8 if you need to catch a deuce to make playing after the flop pay off for you! You don’t really want to see a seven, because anyone with 5-9-X-X or 8-9-X-X would have a better straight. You also don’t want to see a three, six, or eight. If a flop of 3-6-8 is playable, holding A-4-5-K, then there must be something else besides drawing-to-catch-a-deuce involved.
But what else could it be?
There can only be one answer. If you advocate playing A-4-5-K-rainbow from on the button, then you must advocate playing 2nd nut lows, at least in certain situations. I realize that I’m speaking heresy, but there it is. There is no other reasonable possibility.
More to come.
Buzz
Buzz,
I didn't state it directly but by saying I wouldn't call with this hand in a tight game that suddenly had many callers for this hand I implied that the hand is still a borderline call pre flop in a good loose game with weak players. Add a suited ace and it is much stronger OR change the five or four to a three and it is much stronger (do both and it is obviously much, much stronger :) .
Also note that many of these calls I advocate are very close and also depend on the fact that you cannot be raised. In some cases you will get a pretty good turn but have to give it up to pressure betting.
I don't advocate playing second nut as the sole PRIMARY draw in any loose game, but sometimes you have a second nut combined with a little extra elsewhere. I think some of your examples had this feature.
My swings in the 9/18 Kill and 6/12 Kill Omaha (the only regular games in the area at reasonable limit) are so low in this game compared to holdem and the boredom factor so high that there just has to be a benefit to playing borderline hands before the flop and showing less than the nuts post flop now and then.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to more of your excellent posts and plan on scanning the 2+2 and RGP archives (now that Google has restored old threads) to catch up. I'll especially be looking for your posts in my search criteria.
Regards,
Rick
Rick -
"I didn't state it directly but by saying I wouldn't call with this hand in a tight game that suddenly had many callers for this hand I implied that the hand is still a borderline call pre flop in a good loose game with weak players. Add a suited ace and it is much stronger OR change the five or four to a three and it is much stronger (do both and it is obviously much, much stronger"
Agreed. A given, IMHO.
"Also note that many of these calls I advocate are very close and also depend on the fact that you cannot be raised. In some cases you will get a pretty good turn but have to give it up to pressure betting."
Again, a given, IMHO.
"I don't advocate playing second nut as the sole PRIMARY draw in any loose game, but sometimes you have a second nut combined with a little extra elsewhere. I think some of your examples had this feature."
Yes.
"...swings....so low.....and the boredom factor so high that there just has to be a benefit to playing borderline hands before the flop and showing less than the nuts post flop now and then."
Yes, so long as you get out when it looks like it might be expensive. Your point in another of your posts about alleviating tedium by playing borderline hands was also well taken, IMHO. If cannot figure out a way to make the game enjoyable, why play it at all? I think it's a given that if you have the brains and discipline to earn a living playing poker, then you can probably make more money doing something else. Part of the reason for playing Omaha-8 should be that you enjoy it.
"Anyway, I'm looking forward to more of your excellent posts and plan on scanning the 2+2 and RGP archives (now that Google has restored old threads) to catch up. I'll especially be looking for your posts in my search criteria."
Thanks. However, I'm not an expert. My outlook has changed, and continues to change as I learn. Not sure how good my earlier posts are. Hopefully they get better and better as I learn and get better and better myself.
For example, at first I couldn't understand why Ray Zee didn't put a list of playable starting hands in his excellent book, and I couldn't understand why Steve Badger didn't seem to want to list starting hands. I wanted a list of hands that I could play, a crutch, and figured out my own list. (Working on the list was more worthwhile to me than the list itself). Now I understand. There is a better way to think about the game, a higher level.
Viewed in that perspective, maybe by trying to categorize flops which are playable with A-4-5-K-rainbow, we're looking at the wrong view of the overall picture. Well, maybe not, if we have learned something. The inescapable conclusion you have to reach, IMHO, if you study playing A-4-5-K-rainbow, is that sometimes you will have to be able to play flops that give you the 2nd nut low.
As with many questions one studies, the answer leads to more questions.
I have followed your own posts for a while. You are one of a small group of individuals whose posts I regularly read. I appreciate your input and wisdom.
Regards,
Buzz
I still have to finish addressing your specific responses, which I will do soon.
Rick -
“1. I call in this type of game. In a tight game that suddenly gets this many limpers I fold since one or more A2 type hands are probably out.“
Good point.
“2. Note: By “bet” I assume you mean which flops do you call in this and the following questions.“
I should have written “which flops do you play.”
“c. 8-7-2 – I call with the inside straight draw and singleton nut low draw. “
I thought of this flop differently. I thought of it as flopping the 2nd nut low. You have a draw to the nut low, but it is a 4-out draw, a poor draw, and for only half the pot. Similarly, the draw to the inside straight is the same 4 outs. There are many other cards that go with the trey.All of them except a queen a king or ace enable a hand that might beat you for high. Thus there are only ten cards that, combined with a three on the turn or river, make a scooper for you. In addition, about a third of the time in a full loose game someone else will also have 4-5-X-X. When you put it all together, there has to be something else besides a 4-out draw to a nut low wheel.
Although I intentionally mixed in other borderline hands for camouflage, a main aspect of the quiz has to do with the playability of 2nd nut low hands after the flop. The fact is, the flop of 8-7-2-rainbow is playable with a hand of A-4-5-K-rainbow because you have flopped the 2nd nut low (in addition to some other features, as you cleverly noted in another post in this thread).
“a. A-4-5 – I call one time hoping to fill up next hand.“
Hard to blame you here. I think a call is a money loser. The reason, as noted in more detail elsewhere in his thread (in a response to Paul), is that even if you do fill up, you will almost surely have to split with low. Playing with a 6-out draw to half the pot with a wheel possible on the flop cannot be a good play. Sorry.
“b. 3h-6h-8h – I call hoping for a deuce but also liking an ace, which will counterfeit many lows. Note that since the flush is already made, a raising war is unlikely to break out since there is only one nut high.“
Again you have flopped the 2nd nut low. With the hearts, here you are playing for only half the pot. Alas, an ace counterfeits your 2nd nut low. Ace is not, IMHO, the card you want. As you noted elsewhere, you have to fold if a raising war breaks out.
I fold e. and d. in that order and won't raise on any of the above.
Choice #e turns out to be the best flop of this group, IMHO, for A-4-5-K, because if you hit a king or a four, you will not have to split the pot. Seventy per cent of the value of the hand, IMHO, is derived from catching a king or a four, with about another ten per cent derived from catching 4-4 or 2-3 on the turn and river. This is not one of the 2nd nut hands.
I agree with not raising any of the above flops (all depending, of course).
“3. a. A-2-9 – I call ready to bail if a not three low hits and I get pressure b. 3-6-K – I might raise with any 2, 7, K and even ace being great for my hand but calling is OK. c.-3h-6h-8d – I call. I can't survive a turn heart and pressure unless I make a better low (which includes an ace). d. 7h-6d-Ac – Marginal call since no card can come making the nuts. e. Q-4-3 – I fold.“
Yes.
“4. a. A-2-4 – raise and try to find out now if 3-5 is out.“
Trouble is, some players will slow play 3-5-X-X. Others will think they are quartered and will just call. Others might re-raise with a set to try to limit the field. But if you know your opponents, it might work against some. I have this hand as the worst of this group.
“c. 2-6-K – call since almost any low card improves your hand “
This is primarily a 2nd nut low draw hand. Your answer implies you were instinctively thinking along those lines. (I thought this hand was the best of this group).
“b. A-2-6 – call with a shot at a nut low and a chance at nut or strong high d. 3h-6d-8c – call with two very good cards for you. e. Qh-7h-3d – call with two very good cards. Not as good as d. above due to hearts and low not made yet. .“
OK
“5. a. A-2-6 – call but you need to improve on the turn to continue against pressure. b. A-K-4 – raise with top two and hope to get to see the river cheaply. c. 3-5-K – raise with top two and second nut low draw to a wheel d. Qh-7d-3c – call with two great cards. The rainbow board helps a lot. e. K-8-5 – fold since you have little chance for a strong hand. “
Your answer implies 3-5-K and A-K-4 are the best hands in this group. I agree. Note that 3-5-K is another 2nd nut low draw hand and A-K-4 has 6-outs to a scooper.
I like K-8-5. You have a shot at a scooper with a king or a five plus a high card. You have an eight-out (any two or three) draw to a second nut low.
“For calling d. is better than a. and for raising c. is better than b. “
I agree about the raising, but disagree about the calling. I like choice b better than choice d, mainly because of the greater possibilities for scooping. Note that choice d is another 2nd nut low draw hand.
“6. a. A-2-4 – call but proceed with caution. b. A-2-6 – easy call to a nut low and a backdoor high straight.“
Chris K. ran some simulations which rated A-2-6 higher than I originally had rated it. His simulations agreed with my calculations that A-2-4 was lowest of this group, except for Qh-Jh-Th. He, like you, rated A-2-6 the top hand in this group and he, like you, rated K-Q-4 lower than I rated it (although Chris and I both rate K-Q-4 as a calling hand).
So, I don’t know. Maybe my ranking of this group was (is) incorrect. Note that you don’t have the nut low with A-2-6. The nut low is 3-4-X-X and the 2nd nut low is 3-5-X-X, making your 4-5-X-X the 3rd nut low. Maybe I’m missing something here.
“c. Qh-Jh-Th – easy fold. Have I seen this before?“
Yes. No doubt about this one. You don’t play a straight on the flop against a possible flush on the flop unless a bet by you would cause any but the nut flush to fold, and that doesn’t happen much in loose Omaha-8 games.
Yes, you have seen it. I put some of the choices in more than one question.
“d. K-8-5 – fold. This is a two-way loser.“
Maybe it is. I have it ranked second in this group, as do the simulations of Chris K.
“f. K-Q-4 – very easy fold “
I like K-Q-4, because you scoop if you hit. On the downside, 4 outs is not so good, and you have top and bottom pair. But all the flops in this group are less than premium flops, to say the least. I had K-Q-4 ranked first in this group. Chris K had it ranked third.
“I like calling with b. better than a.“
I agree.
“7. a. A-2-4 – fold this one. I see few scoops here. .“
I’m glad I stuck A-2-4 in there more than once. This time you agree with me.
“8. b. 2-6-K – easiest call with many cards improving hand including an ace. c.Qh-7d-3c – easy call with two great outs. a. A-2-9 – call but you need to improve to continue past turn. d. Qh-7h-3d – call but bail if bad heart and pressure comes on turn. e. Qh-Jh-Th – easy fold without Ah “
This time we’re very close. If I changed my parameters a little bit, we might be in exact agreement. Similarly the simulations of Chris K. are in close agreement. We all have 2-6-K at the top of the pile and Qh-Jh-Th at the bottom. Obviously the rainbow Q-7-3 ranks higher than Q-7-3 with two cards of the same suit for all of us.
Thank you for your kind response to my original post and also for your intelligent, perspective responses to other posters within the thread. I am not an Omaha-8 expert and I have learned a lot from this thread, much of it due to your responses.
Thanks again for participating.
Buzz
Rick -
“1. I call in this type of game. In a tight game that suddenly gets this many limpers I fold since one or more A2 type hands are probably out.“
Good point.
“2. Note: By “bet” I assume you mean which flops do you call in this and the following questions.“
I should have written “which flops do you play.”
“c. 8-7-2 – I call with the inside straight draw and singleton nut low draw. “
I thought of this flop differently. I thought of it as flopping the 2nd nut low. You have a draw to the nut low, but it is a 4-out draw, a poor draw, and for only half the pot. Similarly, the draw to the inside straight is the same 4 outs. There are many other cards that go with the trey.All of them except a queen a king or ace enable a hand that might beat you for high. Thus there are only ten cards that, combined with a three on the turn or river, make a scooper for you. In addition, about a third of the time in a full loose game someone else will also have 4-5-X-X. When you put it all together, there has to be something else besides a 4-out draw to a nut low wheel.
Although I intentionally mixed in other borderline hands for camouflage, a main aspect of the quiz has to do with the playability of 2nd nut low hands after the flop. The fact is, the flop of 8-7-2-rainbow is playable with a hand of A-4-5-K-rainbow because you have flopped the 2nd nut low (in addition to some other features, as you cleverly noted in another post in this thread).
“a. A-4-5 – I call one time hoping to fill up next hand.“
Hard to blame you here. I think a call is a money loser. The reason, as noted in more detail elsewhere in his thread (in a response to Paul), is that even if you do fill up, you will almost surely have to split with low. Playing with a 6-out draw to half the pot with a wheel possible on the flop cannot be a good play. Sorry.
“b. 3h-6h-8h – I call hoping for a deuce but also liking an ace, which will counterfeit many lows. Note that since the flush is already made, a raising war is unlikely to break out since there is only one nut high.“
Again you have flopped the 2nd nut low. With the hearts, here you are playing for only half the pot. Alas, an ace counterfeits your 2nd nut low. Ace is not, IMHO, the card you want. As you noted elsewhere, you have to fold if a raising war breaks out.
I fold e. and d. in that order and won't raise on any of the above.
Choice #e turns out to be the best flop of this group, IMHO, for A-4-5-K, because if you hit a king or a four, you will not have to split the pot. Seventy per cent of the value of the hand, IMHO, is derived from catching a king or a four, with about another ten per cent derived from catching 4-4 or 2-3 on the turn and river. This is not one of the 2nd nut hands.
I agree with not raising any of the above flops (all depending, of course).
“3. a. A-2-9 – I call ready to bail if a not three low hits and I get pressure b. 3-6-K – I might raise with any 2, 7, K and even ace being great for my hand but calling is OK. c.-3h-6h-8d – I call. I can't survive a turn heart and pressure unless I make a better low (which includes an ace). d. 7h-6d-Ac – Marginal call since no card can come making the nuts. e. Q-4-3 – I fold.“
Yes.
“4. a. A-2-4 – raise and try to find out now if 3-5 is out.“
Trouble is, some players will slow play 3-5-X-X. Others will think they are quartered and will just call. Others might re-raise with a set to try to limit the field. But if you know your opponents, it might work against some. I have this hand as the worst of this group.
“c. 2-6-K – call since almost any low card improves your hand “
This is primarily a 2nd nut low draw hand. Your answer implies you were instinctively thinking along those lines. (I thought this hand was the best of this group).
“b. A-2-6 – call with a shot at a nut low and a chance at nut or strong high d. 3h-6d-8c – call with two very good cards for you. e. Qh-7h-3d – call with two very good cards. Not as good as d. above due to hearts and low not made yet. .“
OK
“5. a. A-2-6 – call but you need to improve on the turn to continue against pressure. b. A-K-4 – raise with top two and hope to get to see the river cheaply. c. 3-5-K – raise with top two and second nut low draw to a wheel d. Qh-7d-3c – call with two great cards. The rainbow board helps a lot. e. K-8-5 – fold since you have little chance for a strong hand. “
Your answer implies 3-5-K and A-K-4 are the best hands in this group. I agree. Note that 3-5-K is another 2nd nut low draw hand and A-K-4 has 6-outs to a scooper.
I like K-8-5. You have a shot at a scooper with a king or a five plus a high card. You have an eight-out (any two or three) draw to a second nut low.
“For calling d. is better than a. and for raising c. is better than b. “
I agree about the raising, but disagree about the calling. I like choice b better than choice d, mainly because of the greater possibilities for scooping. Note that choice d is another 2nd nut low draw hand.
“6. a. A-2-4 – call but proceed with caution. b. A-2-6 – easy call to a nut low and a backdoor high straight.“
Chris K. ran some simulations which rated A-2-6 higher than I originally had rated it. His simulations agreed with my calculations that A-2-4 was lowest of this group, except for Qh-Jh-Th. He, like you, rated A-2-6 the top hand in this group and he, like you, rated K-Q-4 lower than I rated it (although Chris and I both rate K-Q-4 as a calling hand).
So, I don’t know. Maybe my ranking of this group was (is) incorrect. Note that you don’t have the nut low with A-2-6. The nut low is 3-4-X-X and the 2nd nut low is 3-5-X-X, making your 4-5-X-X the 3rd nut low. Maybe I’m missing something here.
“c. Qh-Jh-Th – easy fold. Have I seen this before?“
Yes. No doubt about this one. You don’t play a straight on the flop against a possible flush on the flop unless a bet by you would cause any but the nut flush to fold, and that doesn’t happen much in loose Omaha-8 games.
Yes, you have seen it. I put some of the choices in more than one question.
“d. K-8-5 – fold. This is a two-way loser.“
Maybe it is. I have it ranked second in this group, as do the simulations of Chris K.
“f. K-Q-4 – very easy fold “
I like K-Q-4, because you scoop if you hit. On the downside, 4 outs is not so good, and you have top and bottom pair. But all the flops in this group are less than premium flops, to say the least. I had K-Q-4 ranked first in this group. Chris K had it ranked third.
“I like calling with b. better than a.“
I agree.
“7. a. A-2-4 – fold this one. I see few scoops here. .“
I’m glad I stuck A-2-4 in there more than once. This time you agree with me.
“8. b. 2-6-K – easiest call with many cards improving hand including an ace. c.Qh-7d-3c – easy call with two great outs. a. A-2-9 – call but you need to improve to continue past turn. d. Qh-7h-3d – call but bail if bad heart and pressure comes on turn. e. Qh-Jh-Th – easy fold without Ah “
This time we’re very close. If I changed my parameters a little bit, we might be in exact agreement. Similarly the simulations of Chris K. are in close agreement. We all have 2-6-K at the top of the pile and Qh-Jh-Th at the bottom. Obviously the rainbow Q-7-3 ranks higher than Q-7-3 with two cards of the same suit for all of us.
Thank you for your kind response to my original post and also for your intelligent, perspective responses to other posters within the thread. I am not an Omaha-8 expert and I have learned a lot from this thread, much of it due to your responses.
Thanks again for participating.
Buzz
Buzz,
Thanks for all the work. If I don't comment on something you wrote it is because I agree upon reconsideration or don't have anything to add.
You wrote quoting me with your response in italics here: “c. 8-7-2 – I call with the inside straight draw and singleton nut low draw.“ - - I thought of this flop differently. I thought of it as flopping the 2nd nut low. You have a draw to the nut low, but it is a 4-out draw, a poor draw, and for only half the pot. Similarly, the draw to the inside straight is the same 4 outs. There are many other cards that go with the trey.All of them except a queen a king or ace enable a hand that might beat you for high. Thus there are only ten cards that, combined with a three on the turn or river, make a scooper for you. In addition, about a third of the time in a full loose game someone else will also have 4-5-X-X. When you put it all together, there has to be something else besides a 4-out draw to a nut low wheel.
I see the four 3's as giving you a wheel and the four 6's as giving you a bottom end straight. Let's say you make a six on the turn. The bottom end straight is vulnerable and may be or get beat but if it comes first you still have a second nut low. The worse case is that you are second best both ways but how often will this occur? Of course when it does, you are really screwed so maybe this makes the hand worse than we think, since I had it ranked first and had it ranked second.
“a. A-4-5 – I call one time hoping to fill up next hand.“ - - Hard to blame you here. I think a call is a money loser. The reason, as noted in more detail elsewhere in his thread (in a response to Paul), is that even if you do fill up, you will almost surely have to split with low. Playing with a 6-out draw to half the pot with a wheel possible on the flop cannot be a good play. Sorry.
I now see that this is a bad call. The other problem is that some of the fills give others a bigger full or are vulnerable to one later and you will often get jammed finding out even if you make it.
“b. 3h-6h-8h – I call hoping for a deuce but also liking an ace, which will counterfeit many lows. Note that since the flush is already made, a raising war is unlikely to break out since there is only one nut high.“ - - Again you have flopped the 2nd nut low. With the hearts, here you are playing for only half the pot. Alas, an ace counterfeits your 2nd nut low. Ace is not, IMHO, the card you want. As you noted elsewhere, you have to fold if a raising war breaks out.
If you do make second nut low you can usually get away to a bet and a raise. But I agree playing for half is very weak in this spot. Why did you rank it third?
“c. 2-6-K – call since almost any low card improves your hand “ - - This is primarily a 2nd nut low draw hand. Your answer implies you were instinctively thinking along those lines. (I thought this hand was the best of this group).”
You also have some good parlays. Make the second nut low with a four or a five and fill up or make the nut low with the next card.
“6. a. A-2-4 – call but proceed with caution. b. A-2-6 – easy call to a nut low and a backdoor high straight.“ - - Chris K. ran some simulations which rated A-2-6 higher than I originally had rated it. His simulations agreed with my calculations that A-2-4 was lowest of this group, except for Qh-Jh-Th. He, like you, rated A-2-6 the top hand in this group and he, like you, rated K-Q-4 lower than I rated it (although Chris and I both rate K-Q-4 as a calling hand). - - So, I don't know. Maybe my ranking of this group was (is) incorrect. Note that you don't have the nut low with A-2-6. The nut low is 3-4-X-X and the 2nd nut low is 3-5-X-X, making your 4-5-X-X the 3rd nut low. Maybe I'm missing something here.
The big thing is that the three gives you a two way nut and another low card (seven or eight) gives you another draw to a decent high. I think this is why this hand works well.
“f. K-Q-4 – very easy fold “ - - I like K-Q-4, because you scoop if you hit. On the downside, 4 outs is not so good, and you have top and bottom pair. But all the flops in this group are less than premium flops, to say the least. I had K-Q-4 ranked first in this group. Chris K had it ranked third.
I guess I am afraid the QQ might be out as well as KQ hurting some of your outs. But maybe I should rethink this one.
Thanks again for participating.
Thanks for the quiz but make it a little shorter next time. I'm too old for the SAT's ;-).
Rick
PS I see you got quite a response or RGP ;-).
Hi Rick - “Thanks for all the work.“
You’re welcome. and thank you for all your work.
2c. 8-7-2 “I see the four 3's as giving you a wheel and the four 6's as giving you a bottom end straight. Let's say you make a six on the turn. The bottom end straight is vulnerable and may be or get beat but if it comes first you still have a second nut low. The worse case is that you are second best both ways but how often will this occur? Of course when it does, you are really screwed“
Bottom end straights are death on the flop or turn in a loose game of Omaha-8 - worse than 2nd nut low. The reason is two hands can beat you - and in addition you have to worry about the board pairing, flushing, or enabling a still better straight on the river. For example, with 8-7-6-2 on the board, T-9-X-X and 9-X-X-5 immediately beat you, if the board has two card of one suit (likely) the flush will beat you, and J,T,9 on the river make an even better straight possible. Thus you don’t like J, T, 9, 8, 7, 6, 2 and almost a fourth of the other cards (flush). Thus, even if no one has you beaten already, more than half the cards remaining make it possible for someone to beat you.
Bottom end straights on the flop or turn? Sheeesh!
The answer to how often does this occur is almost all the time. You play a bottom end straight on the flop or turn and you’re asking to get “rivered.”
2a. A-4-5 – “I now see that this is a bad call. The other problem is that some of the fills give others a bigger full or are vulnerable to one later and you will often get jammed finding out even if you make it.“
I agree it’s a shaky call - but not because of bigger full houses. Your full house, if you make one here, is a two to one favorite if the turn or river is a four or five (and even more of a favorite if the turn or river is an ace).
2b. 3h-6h-8h - “If you do make second nut low you can usually get away to a bet and a raise. But I agree playing for half is very weak in this spot. Why did you rank it third?“
LOL. I ranked it third because the other two flops, A-4-5 and Qh-Jh-Th, are even worse. Chris K. had A-4-5 and Qh-Jh-Th as the only two flops in the entire quiz with a - E.V.
4c. 2-6-K – “You also have some good parlays. Make the second nut low with a four or a five and fill up or make the nut low with the next card.“
Yes!.
6a (and 4a.) A-2-4 – Maybe I'm missing something here. “The big thing is that the three gives you a two way nut and another low card (seven or eight) gives you another draw to a decent high. I think this is why this hand works well.“
Thank you. I found my mistake (one of them, at least - no guaranteeing there aren’t others). I had undervalued catching a trey here. Mea Culpa.
Make A-2-4 166. (Alas, that puts my results a bit further off Chris K.’s simulations). Doesn’t change my relative positioning of A-2-4 in #6 or #7, but it does in #4.
6f. K-Q-4 – “I guess I am afraid the QQ might be out as well as KQ hurting some of your outs. But maybe I should rethink this one.“
I’m thinking differently than you here. I’m thinking in terms of how good the full house will be if you make it. Your full house, if you make one here, is a two to one favorite if the turn or river is a four (and even more of a favorite if the turn or river is a king). Sometimes you get beat with quads or the absolute nut full house, but, in general, you can’t worry about that after the flop. If you are paired with the highest card on the board, and if that highest card is an ace or a king, your full house will probably beat any other full house someone makes when you each make one.
Your opponents, when they make full houses, react differently. Rocks want the absolute nut full house or even quads to bet. Loose/aggressive players will bet any full house. Most experienced Omaha-8 players are somewhere in between these two extremes. What you should do, IMHO, depends on who your opponents are.
After this flop (K-Q-4), your competition for a full house is, KKXX, KQXX, K4XX, QQXX, Q4XX, and 44XX.
Should you make your full house with a king (and no queen on the board), 22/23 times you beat any other full house (only KKXX can beat you). (Don't worry about this any more than you worry about someone having quads when you make aces full, with the pair of aces in your hand. It happens, but not enought to worry about it every time you catch aces full. You'll lose more bets not betting aces full than you will getting caught by quads when you have aces full). The turn and the river will only be KQ or QK 16 times out of 990, and half of those have the queen on the turn. With the queen on the turn (making a board pair of which you have no part), you’re probably gone to a bet anyway. Leaves you with a 95% chance of winning if you make a full house with a king.
Should you make your full house on the river with a four you beat everyone. Of course, if the turn is a queen, I think you have to fold to a bet.
Should you make your full house on the turn with a four, assuming a queen doesn’t come on the river, you beat everyone but KKXX. (Odds are 41 to 3 against a queen on the river). (Don't worry any more about an opponent holding KKXX any more when you think about 444KK than you did two paragraphs above when thinking about KKK44). Bet your full house like crazy on the turn to discourage (or make expensive) draws on the river for a queen.
Overall, if you play sensibly here, and also make a full house with either a king or a four on the turn or river, you will almost surely have a winner! You can’t afford to worry much about someone holding QQXX or KQXX.
“Thanks for the quiz but make it a little shorter next time.“
Not sure there will be a next time, but if there is, I will comply with your request.
PS I see you got quite a response on RGP ;-).
I got a couple of private e-mail correspondences from rgpers in response to the “quiz,” but nobody posted a response on the rgp forum, at least as of the date of this writing. In retrospect, the “quiz” was too difficult. One had to really get one’s head into and spend some time on the problem, as you (and some others) did.
Thanks again for your responses and interest.
Buzz
Buzz before I answer all these questions I don't think I would play this hand much from the button. The BB would be a better place for this hand IMO.
Anyway here's how I would play.
A-4-5-K Omaha-8 quiz
1. You are on the button playing A-4-5-K-rainbow in a full, loose, passive Omaha-8 casion double blind ring game.
Four players limp, pre-flop. W do you do?
a. call (also limp)= Sometimes 35% according to what the players have laid down and which players are in.
b. raise=hardly ever 5% unless it would give me valuable info and get the field down to 3.
c. fold= depending on players in and what they have been laying down~~60% of the time
2. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet?
If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-4-5=(R)Bet/(C)=2
b. 3h-6h-8h(R)no(C)=5
c. 8-7-2(R)no(C)=3
d. Qh-Jh-Th(R)no(C)=4
e. K-Q-4(R)Bet(C)=1
SB already bet so I would just call or drop. I wouldn't raise any of these flops.
3. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet? If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-2-9=(R)no/(C)=1
b. 3-6-K=(R)no/(C)=2
c. 3h-6h-8d=(R)no/(C)=5
d. 7h-6d-Ac=(R)no/(C)=3
e. Q-4-3=(R)no/(C)=4
SB already bet so I would just call or drop. I wouldn't raise any of these flops.
4. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet? If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-2-4=(R)no/(C)=2
b. A-2-6=(R)no/(C)=1
c. 2-6-K=(R)no/(C)=3
d. 3h-6d-8c=(R)no/(C)=4
e. Qh-7h-3d=(R)no/(C)=5
SB already bet so I would just call or drop. I wouldn't raise any of these flops.
5. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet? If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-2-6=(R)no/(C)=3
b. A-K-4=(R)no/(C)=5
c. 3-5-K=(R)bet/(C)=1,Raise
d. Qh-7d-3c=(R)no/(C)=2
e. K-8-5=(R)no/(C)=4
6. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet? If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-2-4=(R)bet/(C)=2
b. A-2-6=(R)no/(C)=1
c. Qh-Jh-Th=(R)no/(C)=4
d. K-8-5=(R)no/(C)=5
e. K-Q-4=(R)no/(C)=3
SB already bet so I would just call or drop. I wouldn't raise any of these flops.
7. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet? If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-2-4=(R)bet/(C)=2
b. A-2-6=(R)no/(C)=1
c. 3-6-K=(R)no/(C)=3
d. 3h-6h-8h=(R)no/(C)=4
e. Q-4-3=(R)no/(C)=5
SB already bet so I would just call or drop. I wouldn't raise any of these flops.
8. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet? If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-2-9=(R)no/(C)=2
b. 2-6-K=(R)no/(C)=1
c. Qh-7d-3c=(R)no/(C)=3
d. Qh-7h-3d=(R)no/(C)=4
e. Qh-Jh-Th=(R)no/(C)=5
SB already bet so I would just call or drop. I wouldn't raise any of these flops.
Buzz that's alot of work. I answered the best I could finally had time to do it.
Thanks Buzz
Paul
Paul - Thank you for responding.
I particularly like your answer to question number one, given in terms of percentages.
#2. We agree on the most playable hand. The rest of them are pretty close, IMHO. I originally thought A-4-5 would be even more playable than K-Q-4. After all, you have flopped three pair in the one and only two pair in the other.
The main reason A-4-5 is ranked far below K-Q-4 is that A-4-5 does not make a scooper with your hand. You almost always will have to split with low.
When you split the pot you do not win half as much as you would have won if you scooped.
For example, if you have three opponents, and you and each of your opponents have contributed the bulk of the money in the pot, there are four stacks of chips in the pot, one from each of you. When you scoop, you get all four stacks of chips. You win three stacks of chips. When you split, you get your stack back, the person who is splitting with you takes back a stack and you each win one stack ot chips. You win only a third as much as when you scoop!
With one opponent you win nothing when you split.
With two opponents, you win 1/4 as much when you split as when you scoop.
With three opponents, you win 1/3 as much when you split as when you scoop.
With four opponents, you win 3/8 as much when you split as when you scoop.
With five opponents, you win 2/5 as much when you split as when you scoop.
When you put it all together, even though you will make a full house more often with A-4-5, because low is already made on the board, you are much less likely to scoop than with a flop of K-Q-4. It is the fact that you will almost surely have to split with low that makes a flop of A-4-5 virtually unplayable when you hold A-4-5-K in a loose, full game, even though you have flopped three pairs including aces.
#3. The flop of A-2-9 in question #3 is virtually unplayable because your ace is counterfeited for low. A pair, even a pair of aces, is unplayable after the flop in a loose, full game of Omaha-8.
#4. A-2-4 again ranks low in #4. A-2-6 is better, but K-2-6 is even better because your ace is not counterfeited and you still have a pair of kings, which, with an ace in your hand, is just as good as a pair of aces, should you later make a set or two pair (either of which occasionally wins).
#5. We again agree on the best hand of the group, 3-5-K. However, this quiz was about borderline flops with a borderline hand. Raise after this flop? I wonder what your motive is.
#6 and #7. You liked A-2-4 and A-2-6.
A-2-4 makes two pair for you, but counterfeits two of your low cards, leaving you with only a live 5 for low, probably not good enough in a full, loose game. Yet you will almost surely have to split with low. As noted above, splits are worth less than half.
A-2-6 makes a low for you, but it is the easily couterfeitable 3rd nut low, at best a tricky hand to play.
I like K-Q-4, K-8-5 and 3-6-K better.
#8. We again agree about first choice, it’s hard to disagree with not playing any of the flops given in #8. Of course, as always, it depends.
Thanks again, Paul, for your response.
Buzz
Buzz my logic or reasoning on these plays. I'll do one at a time and label it so OK!!
2. If you raised in question #1, five players, including the big blind, called your pre-flop raise and everyone checked the flop to you. Which flops do you bet?
If you called in question #1, six players, including both blinds, saw the flop, the small blind bet after the flop and three players called. Arrange the following flops in order of playability, most playable first. Which flops do you bet? Which flops do you raise?
a. A-4-5=(R)Bet/(C)=2*****Buzz The reason I like this hand is the Semi-Bluff capabilities it has. Who is going to stay if I bet?? A27x, AK28, A26X, etc. Whoever stays and just calls do they have me beat for High?? I don't think so, but if they raise me then it's a whole new ballgame. By betting I just about have the table at my whim and they might all drop thinking I have the (2,3). Definitely worth a bet especially after raising BTF. If this is a passive game most players will drop. IMO.
b. 3h-6h-8h(R)no(C)=5
c. 8-7-2(R)no(C)=3*** The 3 or A for low or 6 hits you may scoop.
d. Qh-Jh-Th(R)no(C)=4
e. K-Q-4(R)Bet(C)=1**** Basically for the same reasons as above but this is no bluff I probably have the best high hand.
Paul
Paul - I see it. Beautiful reasoning. Thanks.
If I follow you, you’re implying that with the right opponents, if you have a certain table image, and when holding A-4-5-K, you can make the flop of A-4-5 pay off for you, even though it may have less of a positive expectation than a flop of 8-7-2. The reason is, with a flop of A-4-5, every careful player without 2-3-X-X must be wary of an opponent possibly holding 2-3-X-X.
Interesting. I wasn’t even thinking along those lines when I made up the question. But I follow your reasoning. You’re a poker player! (I mean that as a compliment).
But allow me to play the devil’s advocate here.
Holding A-4-5-K and looking at a flop of A-4-5, you must realize the deck is rich in twos and threes. Thus an opponent is even more likely to be holding 2-3-X-X than if you didn’t consider your own hand and the flop. Before the deal, at a full table, it’s about even odds that someone will be dealt cards of two particular ranks (like A-2-X-X, A-3-X-X, or 2-3-X-X). After the flop you can see seven cards. When you can’t see either a deuce or a trey, then it’s even more likely that an opponent has 2-3-X-X. In this case I estimate (an educated guess) roughly four times out of every seven, you’ll be betting into an opponent who holds 2-3-X-X.
If you knew whoever flopped the wheel would start jamming, you’d be in better shape. The trouble is, at least in the games in which I play, opponents don’t always start jamming when they have flopped a wheel. Some intentionally wait a round - until the limits double. Some are so afraid of getting quartered that they don’t bet the low nuts when they get it. Others slow play the hand. Others start jamming right away. Others (like you and I) vary their play. Others call or jam with runner-runner flush draws. (It’s nutty out there in the L.A. area casinos). :o)
Thus even if you were on the button and everyone checked the flop to you, you could not be certain no one who checked had the wheel.
A semi-bluff wouldn’t work if you were up against the nut wheel, the very hand you would be representing with a semi-bluff here, and most of the time (maybe about 4/7) you’d be up against the nut wheel (in a loose, full Omaha-8 game).
Now let me back away from being the devil’s advocate. Of course 3/7 of the time, a semi-bluff would be a great play here, and would probably work, at least against some groupings of opponents, but only, I think, if you raised pre-flop. If you raised pre-flop, and then bet when everyone checked to you, representing 2-3-X-X, a bet by you might take the pot, or at least get you one-on-one, depending on your opponents and their opinions of you. If you didn’t take the pot, you probably could at least see the river for free. However, if your bet didn’t take the pot, you’d have to be concerned about being up against 2-3-X-X.
If you just called, pre-flop, I don’t think a raise, post flop, after someone had bet and several people had called the bet, would induce anyone to fold, except possibly the first bettor. All the others would probably call your bet. In that case you’d be holding a 6-out hand possibly facing the nuts, and playing for only half the pot at best. Thus if you just called pre-flop, I think you would have to fold to a bet, post-flop. You won’t likely be able to buy it, even against passive opponents.
But on that 5% of the hands you raised, pre-flop, your semi-bluff, post-flop would have an excellent chance of succeeding and would be a great play. (On the other 95% of the hands, I think you dump the hand to a bet).
In truth, I’m not an Omaha-8 expert, just a student of the game. I’m not trying to correct you or give you a lesson. I’m just trying to learn myself.
I appreciate your responses.
Buzz
Buzz,
Your right I meant this following the raise BTF. Now if someone has the wheel are they going to be able to hold on to it without betting ahead of me and if there are those types at the table they will Check Raise and if those types are playing I probably wouldn't of raised with it to begin with probably would of folded the hand. If you can read a (23xx) by either a bet or raise just fold. But we're talking specialty flops but if you held A24x, A25x, etc. and the same flop came you mite think about it. Those hands you probably mite raise from the button before the flop. Remember it doesn't have to work much to make it worth while. The worst thing that can happen is you lose an extra SB, plus a 3 can fall to turn them into a money maker. Your hoping they all drop but if they all don't you hope your up against a weak low. If someone raises you then it's cardplaying!!!
paul
Paul - Good point.
Buzz
Paul - Oops -
But on that 5% of the hands you raised, pre-flop, your semi-bluff, post-flop would have an excellent chance of succeeding and would be a great play. (On the other 95% of the hands, I think you dump the hand to a bet).
But on that 5% of the hands you raised, pre-flop, your semi-bluff, post-flop would have an excellent chance of succeeding and would be a great play. (On the other 35% of the hands you called pre-flop, I think you dump the hand to a bet).
Buzz
A-4-5-K Omaha-8 quiz
1. Either call or fold. You shouldn’t get into too much trouble if you get out when you miss the floop. Playing might be good for your table image if you are a tight player, besides relieving the boredom. :o) Playing a marginal playing hand there seems no good reason to raise, pre-flop here, depending on your opponents and what works with them.
2. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
e. K-Q-4, 239 best flop in this group
c. 8-7-2, 153
b. 3h-6h-8h, 144
a. A-4-5, 133
d. Qh-Jh-Th, (you probably have to fold this to a bet)
3. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
b. 3-6-K, 203 best flop in this group
c. 3h-6h-8d, 146
a. A-2-9, 132
e. Q-4-3, 131
d. 7h-6d-Ac, 92
4. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
c. 2-6-K, 193
b. A-2-6, 183
d. 3h-6d-8c, 163
e. Qh-7h-3d, 145
a. A-2-4, 134
5. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
c. 3-5-K, 246
b. A-K-4, 243
e. K-8-5, 225
a. A-2-6, 183
d. Qh-7d-3c, 145
6. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
e. K-Q-4, 239
d. K-8-5, 225
b. A-2-6, 183
a. A-2-4, 134
c. Qh-Jh-Th, (you probably have to fold this to a bet)
7. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
c. 3-6-K, 203
b. A-2-6, 183
d. 3h-6h-8h, 146
a. A-2-4, 134
e. Q-4-3, 131
8. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
b. 2-6-K, 193
c. Qh-7d-3c, 145
d. Qh-7h-3d, 140
a. A-2-9, 132
e. Qh-Jh-Th, (you probably have to fold this to a bet)
More to come.
Buzz
K-Q-4, 239 best flop in this group
Buzz,
I can't figure out what the '239' stands for....
Mack - I was hoping to hear from you.
I rated all the flops in the quiz. I did it by considering all 990 two-card combinations to come on the turn or river. (Yeah, it too a long time, full days, even though I'm pretty fast with numbers).
I multipied all the combinations I thought would be scoopers by one, and all the combinations I thought would split the pot by 0.40. Note that splitting the pot is worth less than scooping. (I can explain this if you don't see why). The choice of 0.40 was arbitrary, and maybe slightly too high, but I was trying to keep the calculations as simple as possible.
Thus the flops that yielded nut low hands, but hands that had no reasonable chance for high were multiplied by the factor 0.40. I used 0.20 for most counterfeited nut lows.
At some point in my consideration of the wisdom of playing A-4-5-K rainbow from the button in a full, loose game, I realized it would be insane to play the hand unless you were willing to play 2nd nut low hands after the flop. I used 0.10 as the factor for 2nd nut low hands.
Thus 990 is the maximum a flop could get. A flop of KKK is worth them maximum. AAA, 444, and 555 are only worth 778 because 336/990 of the time, holding A-4-5-K, in a loose full game, someone would hang in there and you'd have to split with low, and 654(1) + 336(0.40) = 778.4
In that way, K-Q-4 ended up with 239 points. Note that none of the flops in the "quiz" were great flops, and A-4-5-K is hardly a great Omaha-8 hand for a full, loose game. Note also that the "Preliminary Answers" are not final answers.
I plan to post again later this evening regarding my final (up to whenever it is I post) opinions. I'm trying to keep an open mind and use an objective approach with regard to this issue.
Buzz
AAA, 444, and 555 are only worth 778 because 336/990 of the time, holding A-4-5-K, in a loose full game, someone would hang in there and you'd have to split with low
Now I fully understand what you mean by "loose."
Note that splitting the pot is worth less than scooping.
Yeah, I can't argue with this because I haven't played in the type games you are describing. But perhaps .40 is a tad low. My thinking is that if you take low with an A45 you might not have to share it. Then again, perhaps an A45 is just as likely to be there as an A2 in these games. On the other hand, Broadway for high could easily have to share the pot. This leads me to ask if by 'scoop', you mean take it both ways with out sharing.
I may be thinking in circles here, it's late and I got beat up in a short handed PL game. Look forward to your final opinions.
Hi Mack - "Now I fully understand what you mean by "loose." "
Right. You and I wouldn't play runner-runner lows in this game, but lots and lots of players do. And that's not all.... Makes it more difficult to put people on hands, but scooping up the money makes it endurable.
"perhaps .40 is a tad low"
I think it's a tad high. I'm thinking in terms of winning for high and having to split with low. Without even considering getting quartered by an opponent:
With one opponent you win basically nothing when you split.
With two opponents, you win 1/4 as much when you split as when you scoop.
With three opponents, you win 1/3 as much when you split as when you scoop.
With four opponents, you win 3/8 as much when you split as when you scoop.
With five opponents, you win 2/5 as much when you split as when you scoop.
"This leads me to ask if by 'scoop', you mean take it both ways with out sharing."
Yes. But for purposes of establishing relative values I did not consider the quartering effect.
Buzz
Buzz -- Thanks for an excellent quiz. I simulated the results of each of your hypothetical flops using Wilson’s Turbo Omaha; it gave me something to do while waiting for playable hands on Internet Omaha! I figured the results may be interesting for some folks.
Assumptions: 9 handed game, our hero is on the button, dealt A-4-5-K. Opposition is based on my usual opponents (low-limit Internet Omaha). Our hero normally calls, but folds to a pre-flop raise (too hard to model opponents who are only dealt calling pre-flop hands). He sees the flop about 80% of the time. To assess the impact of each hypothetical flop, our hero always sees the turn card (assuming he limped in). Turn and river play are modeled as tight and aggressive. Many more statistics available if folks are interested. . .
For each flop, I ran 5000 sample hands. The results are listed below, listed in order of profitability for each question. Avg BB is the avg amount (in big bets) that our hero would win or lose (per hand) by always seeing the turn with the flop. This is adjusted for the pre-flop contribution, so any value greater than 0 indicates it was more profitable to call (or raise) than to fold. I apologize for the poor formatting; I couldn't make it line up any better.
Flop Avg BBQuestion 2
e. K-Q-4 1.11
c. 8-7-2 1.07
b. 3h-6h-8h 0.44
a. A-4-5 -0.50
d. Qh-Jh-Th -0.64
Question 3
b. 3-6-K 2.24
a. A-2-9 1.40
c. 3h-6h-8d 1.38
e. Q-4-3 0.98
d. 7h-6d-Ac 0.70
Question 4
c. 2-6-K 1.91
d. 3h-6d-8c 1.73
b. A-2-6 1.52
e. Qh-7h-3d 0.80
a. A-2-4 0.66
Question 5
c. 3-5-K 2.12
b. A-K-4 1.66
a. A-2-6 1.52
e. K-8-5 1.44
d. Qh-7d-3c 1.03
Question 6
b. A-2-6 1.52
d. K-8-5 1.44
e. K-Q-4 1.11
a. A-2-4 0.66
c. Qh-Jh-Th -0.64
Question 7
c. 3-6-K 2.24
b. A-2-6 1.52
e. Q-4-3 0.98
a. A-2-4 0.66
d. 3h-6h-8h 0.44
Question 8
b. 2-6-K 1.91
a. A-2-9 1.40
c. Qh-7d-3c 1.03
d. Qh-7h-3d 0.80
e. Qh-Jh-Th -0.64
On first glance, these appear to match fairly well with Buzz’s preliminary results. I'm well aware of the limits of simulations, but I see these as one more tool that may improve my play, along with the thoughts of the great posters on these boards.
I'd be happy to give more info on the sims, if people are interested.
-Chris
Chris - Thanks! That’s wonderful!
Most importantly, your simulations indicate that playing A-4-5-K-rainbow in a full, loose game of Omaha-8 has a +E.V.
"On first glance, these appear to match fairly well with Buzz’s preliminary results. I'm well aware of the limits of simulations, but I see these as one more tool that may improve my play, along with the thoughts of the great posters on these boards."
We are in very close agreement, especially considering that we used completely different methods. Some of my own decisions in choosing parameters for rating the flops were somewhat arbitrary. For example, I decided to approximate splitting as worth 0.40 of scooping. Actually, in a real game I think splitting is worth a bit less than 0.40 of scooping, but variable, depending on the number of opponents competing for a particular pot. Had I used a slightly different value, say 0.375, the relative values I calculated for the flops would have been slightly different. Some flops would have changed places with others.
If you re-ran a couple of simulations, say A-4-6 and K-8-5, would you get the same absolute values for EV? If you changed a couple of the players seated at the table, would you get the same relative values for EV? Might be interesting to see.
"I'd be happy to give more info on the sims, if people are interested."
Yes, I’m intensely interested in your results.
Thanks again,
Buzz
Buzz wrote: If you re-ran a couple of simulations, say A-4-6 and K-8-5, would you get the same absolute values for EV?
Don’t remember A-4-6 being in your original quiz, but I ran it. The most marginal hand of all so far, with an EV of +0.18 BB overall.
I re-ran K-8-5 with four different random seeds, in addition to the simulation posted earlier. Results ranged from a low of +1.29 to +1.54 BB (Mean = 1.42, Std Dev = .09). The original simulation, with an E.V. of +1.44 BB, seems pretty good.
Just realized that you may have meant A-4-5 or A-2-6 instead of A-4-6. Ran four different runs of each of those:
A-4-5, Mean –0.51 BB, Std dev = .03, range -.54 to -.47
A-2-6, Mean 1.48 BB, Std dev = .02, range 1.47 to 1.52
Somewhat interesting to me that, in these sims at least, flopping a made weak low, top pair, and a wheel draw (A-4-5) results in a lower variance than flopping top and bottom two pair with a low likely (K-8-5). Statistics that reflect extra outs, I guess. A-4-5 appears to be a very stable loser.
Buzz wrote: If you changed a couple of the players seated at the table, would you get the same relative values for EV?
You’re going to have to help me out on this one, because I don’t have enough experience at real-life play to have a feel for what table mixes are appropriate. You can see my other posting to get an idea of what types of players are there now. Give me a couple substitutions (i.e., take out an average player and add a tight, passive), and I can probably produce some new sets of numbers.
-Chris
Buzz – Took me a few days to get back to this, but here I am waiting for playable hands on the Net again…
Here are more statistics for the Wilson Turbo simulations I ran for your quiz involving flops to a hand of A-4-5-K, rainbow, on the button.
General game statistics: 9 players at table, an average of 4.9 players see the flop, and 2.7 call/check at showdown. Final pot is an average of 11.4 big bets (BB). I assumed a $2-$4 game, with 5% rake, max $3.
The simulated line-up of player styles is: 1) Average (Small Blind) 2) Loose-Passive (BB) 3) Tight 4) Loose-Aggressive 5) Average 6) Passive 7) Average 8) Loose 9) HERO: Tight-Aggressive (button; dealt A-4-5-K)
For opponents, play pre-flop is determined by various point count systems available in Wilson’s product. Play on the flop and later boards is set by user-defined parameters for each type of opponent.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, HERO calls a single bet pre-flop, but folds to a cold call of two or more bets. HERO sees the flop 79% of the time. He always saw the turn if he saw the flop, to accurately gauge the monetary effect of the various flops. Play is tight and aggressive on the turn and river (involved in showdown 57% of the initial hands).
I developed this set-up by watching opponent styles for a while on low-limit (2/4 and under) Internet Omaha hi/lo. I’m still tweaking the play of the opponents; right now, the biggest problem is the simulated table is looser and more aggressive than what I typically see (final pots in my real games are an average of 8.5 BB). This may account for the differences between my simulation results and your own analysis of combinations.
I’ve found the software’s ability to run simulations to be helpful in thinking about low-limit strategy. These boards, and Zee’s book, are generally more helpful, but both are useful.
If you want more specific numbers on a couple of your flops, such as how often HERO saw the end with certain flops, or what user parameters were assumed for HERO for turn and river decisions, let me know (either here on the boards, or by e-mail if you think we’re getting too math-geeky for folks). I’m 99% sure that HERO plays looser than most of the regular contributors to these boards.
Enjoying all the replies on this,
-Chris
P.S. By the way, I ran a simulation where HERO gets dealt A-4-5-K on the river, no specific flop is specified, and HERO gets to fold the flop if it’s junk like 10h-Jh-Qh. After 5000 hands, HERO was involved in 50% of the showdowns, and won an average of 0.23 BB/hand by playing A-4-5-K. This hand appears playable with this set of (robotic) opponents…but you’re not gonna get rich off it.
Made a mistake in the P.S.
HERO dealt A-4-5-K on the button, not on the river
1. I don’t think everyone should play A-4-5-K-rainbow from the big blind. However, I think some players can show a profit playing this hand in some fields. And playing it certainly alleviates some boredom. If you can play A-4-5-K, you can probably also play A-4-5-Q, A-4-5-6, and maybe A-4-5-J. Maybe if you’re good enough at reading your opponents, you can play A-4-5-anything.
I plan to play A-4-5-X sometimes and not others, depending. My study indicated that, at least for me, A-4-5-X is neither a hand to to be embraced nor a hand to be shunned. I think you have to be willing and able to play 2nd nut low hands to play it. Otherwise not enough flops fit with it.
2. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
e. K-Q-4, best flop in this group and playable.
c. 8-7-2, playable
b. 3h-6h-8h, playable??
a. A-4-5 (I don’t think this flop is playable, in general, at least for me),
d. Qh-Jh-Th, worst flop in this group, and not playable.
3. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO.
b. 3-6-K, best flop in this group and playable
a. A-2-9, playable
c. 3h-6h-8d, playable
e. Q-4-3, playable??
d. 7h-6d-Ac, not playable
4. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
d. 3h-6d-8c, best flop in this group and playable
c. 2-6-K, playable
b. A-2-6, playable
a. A-2-4, playable??
e. Qh-7h-3d, playable??
5. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
c. 3-5-K, best flop in this group and playable
b. A-K-4, playable
e. K-8-5, playable
a. A-2-6, playable
d. Qh-7d-3c, playable
6. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
e. K-Q-4, playable, (may be rated too high relative to next two in this group)
d. K-8-5, playable
b. A-2-6, playable, I may have this rated too low compared to K-Q-4 and K-8-5.
a. A-2-4, playable??
c. Qh-Jh-Th, not playable
7. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
c. 3-6-K, best flop in this group and playable
b. A-2-6, playable
a. A-2-4, playable??
e. Q-4-3, playable??
d. 3h-6h-8h, playable??
8. Arranged in order of playability, IMHO:
b. 2-6-K, best flop in this group and playable
a. A-2-9, playable
c. Qh-7d-3c, playable
d. Qh-7h-3d, playable??
e. Qh-Jh-Th, not playable
Thanks to everyone who responded. I'm still interested in your opinions.
Buzz
1. You are on the "BUTTON" playing A-4-5-K-rainbow in a full, loose, passive Omaha-8 casion double blind ring game. Four players limp, pre-flop. W do you do?
Buzz I assume you meant Button not BB.
Thanks Paul
Paul - Yes, I meant button. You have position here. I'm trying to pick the most favorable way to play A-4-5-X-rainbow. If you can't play A-4-5-K-rainbow on the button, then you can't play A-4-5-X-rainbow at all (except from the blinds).
Buzz
Buzz,
I would think it mite work better one off the button with a Raise if you get the button to drop and a couple of limpers. That way you cut your odds down considerably BTF of hitting something that mite hold up. I would try this randomly and only in certain games but you mite want to try it out and see how it does. The button raise doesn't have as much effect as a one off does in the games I play plus you buy the button. If anyone reraises well then you mite be heads-up and that isn't bad either. Just some thoughts on this holding. I haven't tried this but I will if I get this holding.
Paul
Paul - Thanks. Interesting idea. I'll try it.
Buzz
After a couple intense years of Holdem I've begun playing 7 card stud again. I think Holdem has been excellent preparation for stud. Mason said once about his experience years ago when he start playing Holdem AFTER stud; it seemed the 'lights had gone out'. Indeed, playing stud is like having the lights turned on. You use all your Holdem skills to read and play off other players, and in addition, you have a lot of extra information provided by the many cards that show and were exposed. Seems this extra info has the effect of amplifying the effect and availability of the various plays - such as re-raising with what you know is a second best hand, to increase your chances by thining etc.
I agree. I like to play stud best, but if I start to get lazy, a few hours of HE seems to wake me back up. I think its the fact that you are forced to consider all the types of hands on the board and the different betting strategies you might use. You can translate those types of skills effectively to stud.
If you read the other forums you know I mostly play holdem. Lately I'm playing some Omaha and have two thoughts that may be obvious to more experienced Omaha H/L players but I thought I'd post them anyway.
In mid limit holdem I prefer a tight, tough image since a lot of your earn comes from stealing smallish pots you don't connect with that also miss your opponents. So in holdem I find little reason to play marginal hands. However, in a good loose Omaha H/L game (the only type worth playing IMO at limits below 20/40) I think a loose image is much better than a tight one. It helps you get the extra calls on your nut hands and by playing a few marginal hands you reduce some of the boredom.
In holdem I love a very tight and cautious player on my immediate left as it almost makes it seems like you get two buttons per round. But in a good loose Omaha H/L game there are advantages to having this player on your right. If the tight player has called pre flop you can toss hands such as A35x that you otherwise could profitably play in a loose game.
Comments appreciated.
Regards,
Rick
Rick - "In mid limit holdem I prefer a tight, tough image since a lot of your earn comes from stealing smallish pots you don't connect with that also miss your opponents. So in holdem I find little reason to play marginal hands. However, in a good loose Omaha H/L game (the only type worth playing IMO at limits below 20/40) I think a loose image is much better than a tight one. It helps you get the extra calls on your nut hands"
Since stealing blinds is unheard of in a full, loose Omaha-8 game, if the reason you want a tight image is to steal the blinds, I agree there is no advantage to having a tight image. (But there may be more to it than just stealing the blinds).
IMHO, whatever your image, you can exploit it, by being what you seem not to be. For example, in mid limit holdem, you are appearing to play only solid hands, but then you steal with less than solid hands.
Even in full, loose, Omaha-8 games, there are usually some tight players. In addition, players who appear loose can play tight when they think they are facing a "rock." You can't usually steal the blinds in a full, loose Omaha-8 game, but you can sometimes take advantage of a tight image later in the hand.
As you know, a basic difference between a loose Omaha-8 game and a loose Texas hold 'em game is that winning hands are much better in Omaha-8. In Omaha-8, someone has the nuts so often, especially for low, that, unless you really know what you are doing, playing hands that are not either the nuts or good draws to the nuts seems generally unwise.
Thus, also as you know, a key secret to playing Omaha-8 in full, loose games, is to play hands that have the nuts or have good draws to be the nuts. To do that, you can't play very many hands before the flop. Then after the flop, you fold more often than you continue.
Thus it seems that you need to play such a tight game there is no advantage to having a tight image. Yet some times there can be, because Omaha-8 is a drawing game.
Sometimes, even in a game that is loose, there will not be many opponents in a particular hand, perhaps only one. Since omaha-8 is a drawing game, there are situations where you miss your draw and suspect that your opponent also missed, but might have a better hand than you. If you bet, even when you have missed your draw, either on the turn or the river, it is nice when your opponent thinks you such a solid player that you must have a good hand and folds. Thus you can make a solid image pay off for you in some Omaha-8 situations (and against some opponents).
But fine, if you have created a loose image, you can make it pay off for you. You'll get calls on the end from opponents who have nothing.
"and by playing a few marginal hands you reduce some of the boredom."
Yes!
"In holdem I love a very tight and cautious player on my immediate left as it almost makes it seems like you get two buttons per round.
Works that way in Omaha-8 too.
But in a good loose Omaha H/L game there are advantages to having this player on your right. If the tight player has called pre flop you can toss hands such as A35x that you otherwise could profitably play in a loose game.
More important to me is whether the tight player is passive or aggressive. I want tight/aggressive on my right and tight/passive on my left. You have to play so damned tight in Omaha-8 anyway that you hate to throw away A-3-5-X, pre-flop - but when the tight player seated to your right raises, pre-flop, it's clearly the correct thing to do.
just my opinion.
Buzz
Buzz,
You wrote: ”Since stealing blinds is unheard of in a full, loose Omaha-8 game, if the reason you want a tight image is to steal the blinds, I agree there is no advantage to having a tight image. (But there may be more to it than just stealing the blinds).”
Stealing blinds is only a small part of a tight image in holdem. Often the steals are on the flop, turn, or river.
”IMHO, whatever your image, you can exploit it, by being what you seem not to be. For example, in mid limit holdem, you are appearing to play only solid hands, but then you steal with less than solid hands.”
If you have a solid hand, then you aren't stealing :-).
”Even in full, loose, Omaha-8 games, there are usually some tight players. In addition, players who appear loose can play tight when they think they are facing a "rock." You can't usually steal the blinds in a full, loose Omaha-8 game, but you can sometimes take advantage of a tight image later in the hand.”
Perhaps an example would be to raise a bettor to your right on the turn with the nut high full house and mediocre low draw to drive out slightly better low draws (of course you won't drive out the nut low draw.
”As you know, a basic difference between a loose Omaha-8 game and a loose Texas hold 'em game is that winning hands are much better in Omaha-8. In Omaha-8, someone has the nuts so often, especially for low, that, unless you really know what you are doing, playing hands that are not either the nuts or good draws to the nuts seems generally unwise.”
I agree that it is generally unwise but not always unwise.
”Thus it seems that you need to play such a tight game there is no advantage to having a tight image. Yet some times there can be, because Omaha-8 is a drawing game.”
I find some of the Omaha “rocks” never seem to gamble when they have the best of it. I'm tight but I value raise (mostly in late position) with all kinds of good to excellent hands. I also bet or raise on the come. The rocks who bet only with the made hands really lose a lot of action and expectation on their big draws.
”Sometimes, even in a game that is loose, there will not be many opponents in a particular hand, perhaps only one. Since omaha-8 is a drawing game, there are situations where you miss your draw and suspect that your opponent also missed, but might have a better hand than you. If you bet, even when you have missed your draw, either on the turn or the river, it is nice when your opponent thinks you such a solid player that you must have a good hand and folds. Thus you can make a solid image pay off for you in some Omaha-8 situations (and against some opponents).”
I agree.
”But fine, if you have created a loose image, you can make it pay off for you. You'll get calls on the end from opponents who have nothing.”
I believe you can create a loose image without making any loose or negative expectations plays. Raise pre flop with good speculative hands. This may increase variance but shouldn't hurt your expectation. Bet or raise on the come. Don't be afraid to raise when you MAY get quartered on the river since it only costs a little. Play marginal hands. Stuff like that.
BTW, Thanks for your clarification regarding position and tight-aggressive or tight passive.
Rick
Here is an important one that I just realized this year. Stretching back to last summer, I've had a bad year financially on the business side of things, so I had to pull in my horns at poker. I'm normally a somewhat aggressive player with a lot of moves. But my financial reverses affected my hold-em game. I found that the pace of Omaha games put me at my comfort level for speed, whereas I was not comfortable with my main game at hold-em. What I realized is that because most mid-sized hold-em games are raised before the flop, this has the effect of raising your deviation and your "gamble" On the other hand, few Omaha hands are raised pre-flop and when they do, it's usually pretty easy to put someone on a hand.
Earl,
My swings in Omaha H/L are incredibly low relative to my earn rate and relative to other games of similar limit.
You made interesting comments about Omaha as a haven when you have outside troubles. My focus is terrible now because of stress unrelated to poker. It doesn't affect my discipline but I have difficulty watching hands and players when I'm not in a hand. Having only a general idea of player's styles at holdem kills you. In a loose Omaha H/L game it only hurts you a little.
Regards,
Rick
Playing 2-4 omaha hi/low on Paradise last night.
Hand 1) I am dealt 2h3c4c9s in SB. There are 6 callers including myself and the BB.
Flop is 6h2c5s. I have flopped a nut straight and I have a 65432 low. I bet and have 4 callers.
Turn is 4d. I no longer have a nut straight. My low is shakey at best. I checked and folded to a bet and a caller.
River is 4s. One player wins high with a 7 high straight. Both of the other players win with a 65432 low.
So I would have won high and 1/3 of the low. Now when I folded I did not notice my two pair. I am not sure if I would have called anyways. Is this fold too tight?
Hand 2)I am dealt Ad7d9h9c in SB. There are 4 callers including myself and the BB.
Flop is 6d6sKd. I have flopped a nut flush draw on a paired board with no chance of low. I check and fold to a bet and one caller.
Turn is 9s. River is Ts.
Of course both of the other players had a 6. One of them filled up on the river but my 9's full would have won.
I am fairly new to this game and my results are pretty good so far. Both of these folds seemed pretty obvious to me. I am sure many of my opponents would have made the calls but I am trying not to chase non nut hands.
So too tight or just right?
Ken Poklitar
Ken,
On the first hand I think you can overcall a bet and a call but it is close. Note that a 7-8 makes the nut straight and this hand is not played that much, even in low limit. Your two pair also adds value and you still have a chance at splitting low if an ace comes.
On the second hand I think it is close but probably a good fold against a conservative bettor.
Regards,
Rick
with the first hand, unless an ace flops, you probably should fold. however, in a loose, passive game, you could probably call. by the way, you said a seven straight won high- you had a six straight so you would have split 1/3 of low with other two players and lost high. did you mistype???
second hand is garbage, and with that flop its an easy fold. in omaha, if a pair flops, never stay in unless you fill up or have trips (unless it is a low flop). the only time i might see it is if i had an overpair,straight and flush draw to go with it - and then if it would only cost me one bet.
tootight
No I filled up on the river so I would have won high. Basically I probably have 4 outs to high and hit one of them.
Ken Poklitar
Ken - Hand 2 is easy.
Don't draw to a flush when there is a pair on the board.
In a full loose game something like one time out of four, when there is a pair on the board, an ace high flush will be good for high. The other three times out of four it's not. Here you don't even have the flush yet.
A pair of nines is not a good pair to have and often gets you in trouble.
Fold to a bet on the flop.
Hand 1 is more difficult. You played 2-3-4-X before the flop hoping for an ace on the flop. Here you didn't get an ace on the flop. However, you caught a straight.
Flopped straights, especially low but non-wheel straights, are very vulnerable in full, loose Omaha-8 games. Unless you have re-draws there are many cards that can ruin you here. Unless you can bet so as to limit the field, you get beaten a lot on the turn and river.
Here you have four callers after the flop and then get counterfeited on the turn. Ugh. You still have the straight, but are aware someone could have a higher straight, and another opponent could easily have the same straight as you. With four opponents, your aceless hand doesn't look good for low.
The small two pair does not add enough to make the hand much more playable. If the board pairs and you catch a small full house, you are vulnerable to a higher full house.
In addition, it looks like you are only playing for half the pot.
On the other hand, with a bet and only one caller, with no one left to raise after you overcall, it only costs you one big bet to see the river. And then, depending on the river, you can fold. You're getting eight to one for your call.
It's close on hand number 1, maybe a toss up, in my mind. Here, as it turns out, you made the wrong decision, but another time it would be the correct decision.
Just my opinion.
Buzz
If I had played these hands, I would have folded them when you did. But I would have folded both of them before the flop. Hand 1 because the 9 didn't fit in, and hand 2 because the pair of nines are worthless.
Wow, so in the SB you would not throw in the extra 1/2 bet for these 2 hands? The Ray Zee book is on order but I have wondered what type of hand to fold in the SB.
It seems that a 2h3c4c9s has good potential for low if an Ace flops. I wouldn't play it for a full bet.
Again the Ad7d9h9c with one possible nut flush and one middle pair seems like it is worth the 1/2 bet.
Watching other players I have found that very few players at the low paradise levels throw many SB hands away with no raise.
Ken Poklitar
I think hand 1 is much better than hand 2, but I've found that the best way to beat O8 is to play real tight. If for no other reason, I would have folded these hands just because of poor position. Rick would like to have me on his right.
You act like the "middle pair" is a good thing. Really it just means you have 2 cards that don't go with anything else in your hand.
I agree a middle pair is not great but what I am trying to figure out is Ad7d9h9c worth 1/2 bet from SB?
Ken Poklitar
A good O8 hand has the potential to scoop. A799 can make a good high, but what kind of low will it make? I think maybe you are thinking that it is ok to go after half the pot. Start thinking about winning the whole pot.
IMHO, A799 is not quite worth a call in the SB. As Brett says, you want to scoop. Im my opponents played really badly I might play this, but this means more than just starting with bad cards. My opponents need to actually pay off with non nut hands. I find that in many games, such as online, players play very loose before the flop but better later, at least in this regard. So I would usually dump it, but as always "it depends".
I would also want my opponents to be the type who wouldn't be likely to jam with the current nuts.
I would call with 2349. It's an easy hand to get away from, if you don't catch an Ace on the flop;however, you do have a powerful low draw, if you flop an ace and another low card. You're not afraid of a counterfeit card, either. Regarding the second hand, as Ray Zee says, you don't play a pair of nines. Joe
Hi all,
I've started playing Omaha (high only) on-line recently. I'm playing 5-10 right now and doing well. This is mostly due to bewilderingly bad play on the part of my opponents and me playing a pretty tight (but I think not tight enough), very unimaginative style.
However, I have very little Omaha experience and have some questions:
Assume a loose table where people will play almost any 4 cards and 4-5 people see the flop on average.
1) You flop bottom set in a multihanded pot. Is it always correct to play on? It seems to me that if there are 4+ players it will rarely hold up, even if you fill. I've been playing it for one bet if there is a caller between the bettor and me, raising if I'm first to act after the bettor and folding if it is bet and raised to me. I'm thinking that if I can't raise an isolate I should drop, but that just seems way too tight (which may be the hold 'em in me talking).
2) Top two pair or two pair with top pair. This is one of the hardest hands to play. I generally try to get it heads up at this point and really think I need some back door redraws to make it profitable
3) non-nut flush draws. If my flush draw is Jack high or below and there are several callers I assume one of them has a bigger draw than I do and fold. is this too tight?
I have Bob Ciaffone's book coming in the mail. Anything else I should be looking at?
Thanks,
Paul Talbot
its hard to guess but id say you play way too loose. you shouldnt be hitting bottom pair very often as not many playable hands have a smaller pair in them.
top two stinks when it also makes wrap around draws.
small flush draws need to be headup mostly and you need to be able to put your opponent on a hand.
Bottom set is usually not good in multiway pots. More importantly, as Ray said, you shouldn't be playing many hands that could make low sets.
Top two pair is okay headsup, top and bottom is not. As you say, it's important to have redraws, even if they are just cards to make a higher top 2 pair.
I would virtually never draw to just a non-nut flush. However, if you have other things going for you as well, you can count them as a bonus.
Buzz,
I can tell you put a lot of thought and time into your O8 A45Ko quiz. I haven't read many of the replies, but I can't emphasize enough what a piece of crap that hand is. The equivalent in hold'em is K9o and in stud hi/lo probably 97/8o.
It's virtually unplayable except maybe headsup or three-handed. The main reason? Well, start thinking about the kinds of boards you want, how likely they are to appear, how likely they are to let you scoop, and how likely you are to get action from them.
Bill - Thanks. I appreciate your thoughts. I can play a tight game of Omaha-8 - and of course I win when playing tightly. But it's no damned fun at all! :o)
I listed and analyzed every flop possible with that hand, A-4-5-K-rainbow. (It was a monumental effort, taking me several full days, working well into the night). Unless you are willing to play hands that are 2nd nut low hands after the flop, or 2nd nut low draws, there are not enough playable flops to justify seeing the flop with the hand.
Are there situations where a good player might be able to profitably play second nut low draws after the flop? Anyone who advocates playing that hand (A-4-5-K-rainbow) must think there are.
If you stick to playing hands that are the nuts or good draws to the nuts, if you stick to playing hands before the flop that have an excellent chance of scooping - if you just do those two or three things, you will almost surely win in a full, loose Omaha-8 game.
But like the old Peggy Lee song, "Is that all there is?"
I keep looking for more. Thanks again for your advice, Bill.
Buzz
Dick,
Your original post "getting jammed with a draw in 7stud/8" is too far down to reply there, but I just wanted to emphasize that in a loose game like that, with paints calling raises on 3rd, you want to take every raise you can with a monster like 24/5 and esp. 24/5A, no matter that a 6 & 3 are out.
Make 'em coldcall those double raises with gutshot broadways, paint pairs and runner-runner flush draws, else put you on AA and get some dead money in the pot.
Thanks, Bill ... I never really considered folding, and in fact when I caught the 6 on the end I thought I was going to win, & I put in the 4th bet on the river myself.
I will say, though, that if I get to 6th street, with NOTHING MADE YET, but a great draw, I sure would appreciate it if my opponents wouldn't jam. But sometimes they do. And I do believe you have to keep an eye on your pot odds. Remember, I only had three outs (the remaining 3s) to win high. Then I had quite a few more outs, the 6s and 7s at least, to win low. But that's only for half the pot. [I had A245, and the only opponent with a possible low had three low cards up, one of which was an 8.] That is why I posted the question in the first place.
Dick
Hi All,
What are the odds of the flop containing a possible low in Omaha 8?
Thanks a binhc,
Marc
Marc - Do you mean the flop or the board on the river?
In either event, the answer depends on the low cards in your hand.
If you don't take your hand into consideration, about three boards out of five have a low by the time you get to the river. (60.01%)
Buzz
I meant a low draw (two low cards) on the flop.
thanks for the response
Marc - Without looking at your hand, 8960/17296 = 0.51
About half the time there are two unpaired low cards on the flop.
If you take your hand into consideration, the answer would be different. If you wanted either two or three low cards on the flop, the answer would be different.
Buzz