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Well, this ain't bad...I am having a cool one with my 2 month old son in my arms, playing 20-40 on Planet and posting on the Forum...jeez, I need a social life.
Anyway, I will post a few hands as they happen.
Here's one:
I have Ac9h in the sb and call. My opponents are the bb, UTG , cut-off and button. 5 handed.
Flop: AdJd3h
I bet and get 3 calls (bb folds).
Turn: 5h
I bet, UTG and cut-off call and button raises.
I fold. Other 2 call.
River: Jc
Button bets. UTG calls. Cut-off folds.
Button wins with A5.
I folded the winner.
Comments?
Skp,
You wrote: "Well, this ain't bad...I am having a cool one with my 2 month old son in my arms, playing 20-40 on Planet and posting on the Forum...jeez, I need a social life."
For a social life, you should try to drink your beer with an older crowd. But at least you are exposing your young son to the right things early in life and are even able to multi-task while doing it. But is it quality time? :-).
"I have Ac9h in the sb and call. My opponents are the bb, UTG , cut-off and button. 5 handed. ---- Flop: AdJd3h ----- I bet and get 3 calls (bb folds)."
Well it looks like the diamond draw is out there and you could be against a slowplayed set or AJ. I wouldn't feel good here.
"Turn: 5h ----- I bet, UTG and cut-off call and button raises. ----- I fold. Other 2 call."
I think you have a fairly clear fold. The button certainly isn't looking for a free card here with a raise. You are almost certainly currently beaten (maybe by a set or AJ in which case you have no redraws). If you are somehow not beaten the diamond draw is still out there to beat you. Remember that one of the cards that gives you two pair is a diamond so you really may have only two questionable outs at this point.
"River: Jc ----- Button bets. UTG calls. Cut-off folds. ------ Button wins with A5. ----- I folded the winner. ----- Comments?"
I wonder what UTG had. Perhaps the nut diamond draw with a weak kicker. Anyway, those are the breaks. If you never fold a winner you are not folding enough. Good luck with your son!
Regards,
Rick
Hey Rick (and Abe), actually the cool one in this case was a lemonade!
I do not drink or smoke at home.
skp,
Its a good fold. You knew it at the time, after the hand, and certainly now looking back at it. At least one of them (probably button) has you beat by the turn, and at least one of them is on the draw to beat you. How can you win? Even a 9 may not be good enough.
Button calls pre-flop with A-5, in that level game huh? Well , I haven't been to Planet yet.
Now the real question. Whats the cold one? Molson, LaBatts, Moosehead?
Abe
But based on your opponent who is solid and the betting action from him which has been very strong with him raising at every opportunity, I think it is weak under the circumstances. If no one had raised pre-flop or if the pre-flop raiser had just called your flop bet then you can say your hand is medium strength. I question whether most players would raise your flop bet with just overcards in a multi-handed pot like this. If he raised with Ace-Ten suited you have 3 outs and if he raised with pocket Jacks you have 2 outs. You have 5 outs against AA,KK, or QQ. This is about an 8:1 shot and the pot odds are not there for even paying $40 much less risking $80. I believe there is less than $300 in the pot. There are also redraws against you at the river even if one of your outs arrives.
There are 4 players seeing the flop for $40 each. So on the flop there is $170 in the pot. Anything but a bet or check-raise is weak play, and I chose to bet. When the preflop raiser raises and the early pos. player and I call there is now $290 in the pot.
On the turn if I check and the raiser bets I will be getting 33-4 to call, which is slightly more that 8-1. Folding would be a weak play. Since I have to call a bet anyways, a bet on my part is much better since I avoid giving a free card when I have the best hand. If I am raised I have to call the raise because the pot odds favor it. Of course I would fold the river if raised on the turn. If I check and call the turn, on the river I'm left wondering if I have the best hand and will be getting at least 37-4 to call, so I will (unless an A comes). Since checking and calling costs $80 and betting, getting raised, then folding on the river costs $80 why would I check and call? Betting gets me more money if I have the best hand and costs the same if I have the worst hand.
Not true at all. You are only an 8:1 dog part of the time. You are a worse dog when he has JJ or AT suited. There is also another player in the hand so your chances of having the best hand or even ending up with the best hand is actually less than all this. You have a very marginal play here only a fraction of the time and the rest of the time you have no valid play at all.
The notion that since you would call a bet anyway you might as well bet yourself is flawed. Whenever you bet in a marginal situation like this you never get a free card and you will frequently get raised thereby increasing your own cost to pursue the hand. You took a card off on the cheap street after being raised because of pot odds. But when a blank comes on the turn, the price has just doubled and continuing to play on the expensive street is weak poker when it is pretty obvious that you are badly beat in almost all cases.
The only hands you are badly beat by are JJ and ATs. That is more than compensated by the reasonable chance that he raised with overcards. You don't think that there is even a 1 in 9 chance that he raised with overcards and you have the best hand?
Whose to say that he will raise the turn? Notice that in the actual hand the turn wasn't raised at all. That indicates one of two things: that my opponent isn't willing to raise even if he has an overpair on the turn and the board is non-threatening, or that he actually did have overcards. Both of these factors would make a bet on the turn more correct.
Given that he is a solid player who raised pre-flop after another player limped in from early position AND he then raised your flop bet with other players in the hand, the only over cards I can see him doing this with are specifically AdKd. No, I don't believe he will play this way with just over cards even 1 time in 9. Even in the tiny fraction of the cases where you are right and he has just overcards you will lose a small percentage of the time then as well because he will catch one of his 6 outs to win.
I cannot say that he will raise the turn 100% of the time. I can say that when you bet you are paying at least $40 every time and there will be a certain percentage of the time where you will get raised on the expensive street costing you a total of $80 if you choose to continue.
Speaking of the actual hand. You lost more money than you should have and these lost bets, especially on the expensive street, add up to lot of money over the course of a year if you play a lot of poker.
I suppose our difference really lies in how we evaluate the "solid" player's play. I play in LA and even solid players are fairly aggressive. I think that there is enough chance that this player would raise the flop with overcards to make it worth calling on the end. Since I'm getting almost enough to call on the turn simply to draw out I like betting better. I agree that if the solid player would only raise with AKd or a hand that beats me then checking and folding the turn would be marginally correct.
Thanks for your continued responses to this thread despite it having died out a few days ago.
This is a very instructive thread. Maybe I have a fault here in assuming that a solid player would play the way I would. I know that in this situation, I will have an over pair or AdKd or AdQd or maybe even AdJd. If you feel that there is a very real probability that this player would play this way with just over cards then your play is correct. It always seems to get back to your read of the opponents, especially the raiser. Good Post!
typical 20/40 game - but there are three fish who are playing 90% of their hands preflop (in the face of a raise or no raise) - calling with any 2 suited cards, even 63s, and any one gappers, even 42, any hand with a T or higher, etc. Normally, 20/40 games don't have even one of these type of player in the game, so clearly its a very unusual circumstance.
Given the presence of three of these fish, it is clear that one should widen their range of starting requirements and play a few more hands, from all positions. For example, A5s becomes ok to limp-call from UTG (do you agree or no on this one?).....so, I bunch QJo in that category as well.
Of course, this is all assuming you can play very well postflop and have a good read on your opponents.
If QJo is still not playable, where do you stretch the population of hands to play ? Let's just use UTG as the example for now.
Remember, the scenario is an unusual one, with 3 blind mice playing with you. Not increasing your starting requirements means you are not picking up that $100 bill lying on the street just because you're afraid you'll get hit by a car.
How do you get a read on a passive calling station who plays 90% of his hands?
-SmoothB-
you get a read on them when they actually put in the first bet or put in a raise.
Raising calling stations! Lordy! That must be the same thing that's happening with the killer bees!
One type of docile bee started interbreeding with another, more vicious and deadly bee. The results were lots of bees that were far more vicious than the original strain.
Much like these killer-calling stations. They still call all the way and go too far with their hands, but they are far more deadly now - they bet and raise too!
Someone should notify the CDC (centers for disease control) about this!
-SmoothB-
I don't know if you are being sarcastic or not. But any idiot, even the blind mice that I spoke of, will raise with the nut straight, nut flush, nut trips, etc...and probably other strong hands as well. I'm sure we've all seen the same thing - anytime a calling station bets out or raises, watch out.
Under the general forum in the debate about A8s, Mason wrote "As for Cooke raising with KTs UTG let me state that he would absolutely never do that with one exception. The exception is when he sees that several players on his left have already passed. If you have played with Cooke you will notice that he is perhaps the slowest player you have ever played with. This allows him to observe the action on his left and it sometimes allows him to "move" his position to the middle of the table. "
This leads me to the question of what seat is this best performed from? I would think seat 2/3.
I like the 6 seat for this purpose (Calif. game with 9 players). The middle seats, on the straight part of the table, seem to be more careful about tipping off their intentions and holding their cards carefully. The 7,8 and 9 on the curve feel like they have more elbow room and seem to be both sloppier and more prone to tipping off their intentions in advance.
Interesting, I prefer the 1 seat too. I think it has to do with the fact that there's no player on your right, which is physically comfortable, the fact that you can indeed "hide" from seat 9, your cards are gently slid to you from the dealer instead of being tossed, and the whole table feels sort of away from you, rather than surrounding you.
Andy,
I've always avoided the six seat because it is the hardest to eat from. Now that I am trying to shed a few pounds I think I'll try it a bit more often along with the one seat.
Regards,
Rick
Yeah, 1 & 9 are the easiest to get to your serving tray, and to keep an eye on it. And I have noticed that most of the players who prefer 1 or 9 eat a lot and often. And those that prefer 2,3,7 or 8 are generally skinny. Yours truly excepted :-)
I would think they are all the same if u know how to pay attention. This is saying alot, for most people.
The Bullpen watch from the sidelines and then get in the game.
paul
Playing this trouble hand early in a full game is a mistake the kind of mistake that seperates winning players from losing ones. Basic rule of thumb for me is if I can't raise a hand or call a raise with it I don't play it early.
Short handed it is a different story.
I suppose if you anticipate 6way action or better w/very little chance of raising, and your opponents paying off to a large degree you can call.
I suspect some simulators could give some betters estimates.
I aggree if one only plays their normal game when others are playing as badly as those mentioned, one is losing $.
Maybe you can ask the other posters where to loosen up if not here...
On the button and cut off is the place to loosen when you have some advantage not UTG which is the worst position next to the blinds.
I dont think there is ever a time when I would play this hand utg in a normal game. Short Handed is a different story.
Just Some Thoughts,
Michael D (Soccer/Sucker Mike D)
But Rounder, those players are on your right, right?
I STRONGLY prefer the one-seat for a boatload of reasons. Low on the list, but still significant, is that I can hide from one or two players on the other side of the dealer. So if I happen to be sloppy on a hand and indicate my intentions in advance, it is a touch less likely to be observed by those just ahead of me.
Tommy
Not me I consider that a disadvantage as I am sure I don't give any sloppy indications about my hand unless I want to.
I cannot justify re-raising on the flop with only top pair and second best kicker with multiway action. The ONLY purpose of your re-raise was to build the pot.
How could you have put the flop raiser on QJ? He could also have had AQ, JT, Q9, or a set. I would have been sick to my stomach after seeing that raise since there's NO turn card that would have made me feel comfortable with KQ.
Sklansky and Malmuth recommend checking on the turn when you have outs, and you had a straight draw.
You definitely overplayed your hand. Sometimes you've got to know when to slow down.
I think you are totally wrong about the reraise on the flop. Not only do you likely have the best hand but you want to knock out the other player who called you original bet if he is calling with a smaller pair. There is some merit to checking on the turn but remember it is very likely that at least one of your opponents is on a draw and you might be giving a free card. Since you can safely fold on the river if you are raised it costs nothing to bet and call a raise before folding on the river. If you just check and call the turn you will check and call the river as well so you haven't saved any money at all. You've only given your opponents a chance to draw out for free if they want to.
"The ONLY purpose of your re-raise was to build the pot."
Not so. The purspose of my re-raise was to a). Define my hand and b). Put pressure on MP who may have called with 2nd pair, a draw, etc. It's also very likely I currently have the best hand so my re-raise also had value.
"How could you have put the flop raiser on QJ? He could also have had AQ, JT, Q9, or a set."
He likely would have raised pre-flop with AQ and only 2 limpers. JT and Q9 are the reason to 3-bet the flop. If he has a set, oh well.
"I would have been sick to my stomach after seeing that raise since there's NO turn card that would have made me feel comfortable with KQ."
I'm not sure which raise you are referring to that makes you sick to your stomach. On the flop, I already stated that I likely had the best hand, so any turn card that doesn't help my opponents is a good one. On the turn, I picked up a straight draw.
It's true that you should tend to check hands with outs, but I also was in a position where a free card could kill me. In other words, I couldn't be sure that I needed additional outs and my opponents didn't. I think my mistake here was calling the river. Thanks for your input.
Doc,
I haven't seen the other answers yet. IMO, there is no full game (nine or more players) where it is correct to call with QJ offsuit UTG. About the worse offsuit hand I will play UTG is AJ or KQ and in some games these cannot be played either.
Regards,
Rick
Rick, I totally agree with your assessment. In a game like Doc describes, I'd rather play A-2 suited than KQ off. While this may seem like a crazee strategy, with alot of players who are going to call all the way you have to draw to the nuts. Can't do it with KQ off, and certainly not with QJ off. See the flop, play the potential big winners after the flop, and get out cheap when you miss.
Doc, you seem to be trying to rationalize playing worse when you are playing with inferior competition. You have a great situation in the game you describe. Why give a sucker an even break? Take full advantage of the fish by playing strong starting hands up front. Let them call your early raises when you have QQ, AK, etc., and beat em up in the long run.
While it may be possible to come out slightly ahead in the long run playing as you suggest with the game you describe, you are adding short term fluctuation to your expectation for no reason. Be thankful, and play solid. It's less stressful, and you won't pick up any bad habits.
Good luck to all,
Joe
In a loose, somewhat-passive game, will you play QJs, K10s, or Q10s?
Scott,
If by loose and somewhat passive you mean about five or six are seeing the flop and only about 1/3 or less of the flops are being raised I would play all the above hands.
Being suited adds two important elements of value to the hand. First, the flush adds almost twice as many chances to flop a quality draw as a straight draw by itself. I say “almost” because it is usually better to flop a straight draw over the flush draw since you tend to get paid off more when you make a straight and are not as vulnerable to straight over straight as you are to flush over flush. In addition, an inside straight draw has a lot more value than a running flush draw (without a pair).
The other important element that adds value is when you flop a pair with a three flush, but you worry about your kicker (which is a given with most of the above hands). Having the back door flush often allows you to take off a card if you get unwelcome heat. Sometimes this will allow you to hit your kicker and sometimes you make the four flush on the turn. When you make the four flush on the turn you get to see the river, which gives you yet another chance to hit your kicker (or make your flush).
There is one caveat concerning the above hands. A lot of the time the game starts out loose and somewhat passive and you get in the habit of calling with these hands UTG or up front. But game conditions can change as fast as New England weather and suddenly you are playing these hands when most of the loose players have gone (or are smoking a cigarette if you are in California) and more pots are being raised and reraised before the flop. Now these hands become unplayable UTG.
Regards,
Rick
I agree with you that QJ up front is "not far from" the type of hand that could be upgraded in "special" games. But once the game situation calls for that upgrade in someone's mind, he is again part of the masses, just like when he plays AA, as everyone always does.
I think that in mice-ridden games like the one you described it's best to muck QJ UTG every time. Not just because the books say "play tight in lose games." And not just because hand rankings say to throw away trouble hands in early seats. But because all the long-range losers at the table are playing QJ and AA. So to win, you've got to do something different. When we play AA, we're just like the mice, doing what everyone else does. When we fold QJ, we're not.
Tommy
I don't think the magical book saying that to "play tight when the game is loose" is correct. In fact, I believe it is incorrect, and one can "play a few more hands when the game is loose"
Doc,
I agree. But make sure they are the right hands which means they are the type that can win big pots.
The wrong hands incude mediocre offsuit big cards such as KJ, AT, and even AJ.
Regards,
Rick
Tommy A.,
There is no game in which it is correct to fold AA before the flop. That being said, many players don't do as well as they should with this hand when the board is very unfavorable yet they call a large field down with it anyway. These players often do better with a middle pair since they rarely make major post flop blunders with this hand (i.e., they know they have to flop a set to win).
Regards,
Rick
well, I guess I completely disagree. In games with 8 blind mice, you can play a ton of hands, because you also know they are mostly blind on the flop, turn and river, whereas you have your eyes wide open. if any hand can be simulated on TTH, this may be one of them, since it is fairly easy (I think, but not sure) to run this simulation on TTH....I'll try to do it and post anything I get (whether it agrees with me or not)...that is, I'll put 8 blind mice in versus a good player playing QJo UTG.
OK, I ran it on TTH....this is what I did - I put in 8 blind mice and locked UTG with QJo, and a good player after that. I also ran a few other hands...I'll list them all here (remember, this is 8 blind mice) - P/L is shown in $/hand, using a 20/40 game :
QJo -5.6 KQo +2.8 KJo -5.3 ATo +3.0 JTs +2.8
I would say that clearly, given these numbers (and assuming I was somewhat correct in inputting the info in the simulation, which I think I was), that with fewer bad players, that QJo & KJo are complete crap hands UTG (even with 8 mice, they are horrible), and the other marginal hands are probably not good either since they are only slightly good even with 8 bad players.
What does this mean to me? Well, I'm convinced from what everyone has said, along with the TTH simulation that hands that are marginal hands which should be folded UTG in normal games, should also be folded with a few (or more) bad players - and now I doubt if there is a hand that can be upgraded from fold (in a normal game) to a call (in a game with lots of bad players).
Maybe in other spots in later positions can we put in some upgrades to a few hands, but not UTG.
Thanks folks. Clearly, I am here to learn, and will continue to, since I have much more to learn!
Doc,
Queen jack offsuit is great late against a couple of weak callers who will not often pressure you on the flop if you flop a pair and let you steal a bit when they miss. It is also good against a large field in back for one bet since it will make it's share of straight draws and also can flop a decent two pair or pair/draw type hand.
It is a horrible hand up front and also first in with a raise from the middle (i.e., two or three players plus the blinds left to act) unless you are against super weak and tight players on your left and blinds who don't defend well.
Note in your simulations how much better JTs played. Being suited adds a lot of value to multi-way pots.
Regards,
Rick
Doc,
Kudos to you for being open minded and willing to change a mindset after advice and computer runs. Not many would have made that admission.
$20-$40
A player who struck me as very good, raised in the cutoff. The button and BB called. The flop was 7c,6c,5c. It was checked around. The turn was 8c. Again, checked around. The river was 9c. (9c,8c,7c,6c,5c). Checked to the button who bet. The BB called and the cutoff mucked!!
He was getting slightly better than even money to split 3-way.
btw- No one had the Tc and it was chopped 2-way. The cutoff laughed and flashed Ac Qx before he mucked. (He was obviously going for a check/raise on the turn and/or flop). Outside of his play on the rest of the hand, was this a good fold on the river?
**He was getting slightly better than even money to split 3-way.**
This is misleading. What I should have said is, he was getting 5 to 1 to split 3-way which means it costs him 1 bet to win 1.7 if no one had the Tc.
The pot wasn't that big. Good fold.
Similar situation occurred to me in a 15-30 online game. I limp in middle position with A-10s. It is raised by the cutoff. All fold except for the SB. Flop comes 7d, 7s, 8h. SB checks, I check, Cutoff bets, we both call. Turn is 8s. All check. Last card is 8d. All check to cutoff who bets. SB now raises. I am sure this is a shut out attempt, as he had not bet the flop or turn. Like an idiot I call, because I know the raiser has nothing. Raiser calls. SB shows down Q-10, and raiser shows QQ to take the pot. I don't know what got me more angry, the SB's horrible raise or my horrible call of his raise.
In the last three lines when I say raiser I mean the preflop raiser, or cutoff. He was the one who called the last raise and showed QQ to win the pot.
On the flop I have top pair top kicker. Two guys with me. I put one on a fush draw and the other on a straight draw. Am I still a 2-1 favorite with two guys drawing against me?
There are a lot of missing variables in your question that will change the probability on this hand, but the simple answer is "no".
I agree with Earl's answer but you still have a positive EV which is all that matters. You get sucked out more often but when your hand holds up you win a bigger pot as a result.
Specify the situation and the question can be answered.
I'm not sure you will be a favorite in all situations. viz you have As9s the flop is 9c 6c 3h and your opponents have KcQc and 8h7h. You won't be a favorite to win the hand!
I would argue that in most situations you are an individual favorite and sometimes even a collective favorite. I agree that there are very specific card layouts where the best hand on the flop has a negative EV but this is highly unusual. Of course, Omaha would be entirely different.
I agree that your odds are probably just ok, assuming you have something like A-J, with a J-8-7 flop. This is very different from A-K, with a K-8-7 flop-where overcards aren't a concern. Either way you are in and need to make the come hands PAY to see additional cards.
Guys--Thanks for the help.
To all you good, solid, *tight* players (you know who you are!) - do you feel you get bluffed more than others do by observant players who know you can lay down a hand? If so, do you think it is necesary to try to minimize being bluffed, and if so, what actions can you take to try to minimize this?
I feel like I get bluffed at especially when I am headsup and I check on the turn and then my opponent leads at me on the river. What I find myself doing more is two things. I call on the river with Ace high more often or I'll call more when there is four to a straight or four of one suit when I don't have a flush or straight. Secondly I bet more on the turn when I have Ace high or nothing so my opponent doesn't have a chance to lead at me and hopefully he'll fold.
Bruce
If someone is bluffing you TOO MUCH the last thing you want to do is make them bluff less.
If someone bluffs you too much then you can induce bluffs. Slowplay more, checkraise, etc.
When I decide whether to call, I consider who the player is. There are some players who will only bet or raise me if they can beat my hand (unless they read me wrong and underestimate how strong I am.) And if these players seldom or never bluff I will simply fold.
There are other players, however, who will bet draws on the flop and continue betting them to the river, even if they miss. Against these players, I try to evaluate the odds of them having a given hand and then compare this to the size of the pot. Against some of these players, if the pot is big enough and we are heads up, I will call even if I miss my draw but catch 2nd or 3rd pair on the river. IE if the pot has 8 BB, I can be pretty sure that he will have a worse hand than me at least 1 time in 8.
Again, make sure you target the right player. Some people NEVER bluff. So never call them unless you can beat them.
Some people ALWAYS bluff. Be prepared to call them with marginal hands.
-SmoothB-
I think your question while interesting, is probably unimportant. There are times you should fold even when it is quite likely you are being bluffed. Such is the power of the semi-bluff. If you feel a particular player is bluffing at you too often, then it is best to induce further bluffs from this player with weaker holdings than you normaly would.
Otherwise, I tend not to worry too much about being bluffed. It's harder to reach your maximum expectation if you don't fold some winners once in a while, than if you are continuing with hands you shouldn't too often. It is sometimes a fine line between properly folding and playing weak/tight.
Sid-
30/60 game at bellagio sat afternoon 9/31 5 loose players in the game plus one on tilt who will all go to the river to call you down. i'm on the button w/ 10/4s, everybody calls and now it's up to me. my question to the pro's is would you call w/ this hand pro's and con's for calling or not calling thanks
I'm neither a pro nor a con (although I probably have more of a chance of eventually being the latter than the former)but here are a few considerations:
Pro: -you can (probably) get in cheaply
-you have position
-you are suited
-if you hit your hand, you're going to get paid off
-your opponents play bad
-you are going to play well
Con: -your hand is a piece of junk
-strong likelihood your hand will be dominated if you hit top pair, a set, or even a flush and you will lose a lot of money
-even if you flop well (say, two pair), with all those players, very unlikely your hand will hold up to the river
My feeling is that the cons outweight the pros, basically because your hand is junky. I would wait for a suited hand that will allow you to make either an Ace or King high flush, or a "one-gapper" (e.g. J-9s) that afford both straight and flush possibilities.
If you play well from the flop and are against weak players the hand is marginally playable.
Bruce
If you could paly it cheaply,I would think that it is marginal but you have to be able to throw it away, if you do not flop "big" or have to many calling.
This hand is not playable.
Hard to believe that at the 30/60 level that anyone would even think of playing T4s unless on a pure bluff from the get go. Then you would have to be very strong or your going to pay through the nose.
This hand is junk.
Best of it !!
MJ
If everyone calls there are not many hands you can't enter the potc with. However if you feel that the blinds are likely to raise you may want to be a little conservative. This is a very high variance situation that you are describing. Even though pot odds are great there really is not much "play" in this situation so you must rely on making a big hand to win. I'm sure you are aware of the pitfalls of entering the pot with a T,4 suited. For instance, would you really feel secure if you made a flush against 9 other opponents. The obvious answer to this question is that if you feel like gambling you might as well do it when there is a lot of money in the pot. To be perfectly honest I would have to be pschologically high to call.
Vince.
No reason to play this hand, wait for a better situation. (It sounds like there would be one very soon with this type of field). You'd have to flop an awful big hand and have it hold up with an awful big pot to cover all the pre-flop bets you're going to toss away when the flop doesn't help this hand (which it won't the vast majority of the time).
Best of luck,
Joe
If you play trash like that, how are you playing any differently than your opponents?
If you have all those loose calling stations, you don't need to play crap like this. You'll make plently on your quality hands. Just relax and wait.
Is this game passive or aggressive? If it is aggressive then no way! Even if it were passive I wouldn't touch this hand.
-SmoothB-
Not. The only hand you can flop to *maybe* give you an overlay is a set of 4s or set of 10s (about a 20-1 dog). But hey, any two cards can win ....
I've often wondered what people think the proper bluffing frequency is for different situations -- I must admit that semi-bluffing is one of the weaker areas of my game.
I understand the game theory section of Sklanksy's book, but I'm having trouble putting percentages to proper bluffing frequencies.
Let's assume a full 20-40 game. Let's also assume that you won't semi-bluff into a field of more than two other players. (This doesn't mean you won't bet or raise a draw for value if you'll get enough callers, which may also set you up to take the pot on later streets w/o a showdown.)
Good luck, NW Card Hack
There are two extremes. On one extreme, your opponent is loose and passive and will call with just about anything. You should never bluff into this opponent.
On the other extreme is a tight passive opponent who will call with only the best hands. What do you think the proper semi-bluffing frequency is against this type of player on the turn? What about pure bluffs on the river when a scare card gets there (flush / straight)?
Finally, what about calling potential bluffs? What techniques do you use to estimate the frequency that your opponent is bluffing?
the other night i made enough money at a low limit hold em table to go and sit at a 10- 20 for the first time. i'm fairly new to the game of poker, so i was a bit nervous about playing for much higher stakes than i usually do, but i wanted to know if i could compete. on my third hand, i am dealt KQ offsuit. i'm two to the right of the button, and everyone folds behind me. i raise, and the big blind is the only caller. flop comes:J,10,5 rainbow. big blind bets, and i think: he either thinks that i was trying to steal, or he's made a hand, or both. i've got fourteen outs (eight for the straight, six with my overcards), and i might have a shot to scare him out of the pot if an ace comes on a later round. also, if a nothing card hits, he might check, and i could get a free card. i raise. he calls. next card comes a nine. i've got the nuts, and i happily raise him on the turn. he checks and calls on the river. here's my question: was this a sound raise? even though it worked out that time, i didn't know any of the other players at the table, and i didn't know this guy at all. he could have been the tightest player in the place. also, there were no odds for my raise. if you would raise in this situation, let me know what your reasoning is. if you would call or fold, let me know as well. thanks for your help. -J.P.
I think your raise is good in your position. You have overcards and the nut straight draw. Plus your raise lets you know where he is on the hand, i.e. he probably just paired the board since he didn't re-raise. I believe that you get a free card too with your flop raise. I assume he bet into you on the turn, he must have made 2 pair, I would guess that he had J9. Did he show his hand?
Stephen
unfortunately, i didn't ask to see his hand. he bet into me on the turn , though, so i assume he had two pair as well, since he didn't re-raise me on the flop. i usually always ask to see the losing hand, but i was very distraced by an unfamiliar situation. that is, sitting at a higher limit table than i am accustomed.
Bowie:
Welcome to the higher limits. Good raise. If you missed the turn, good chance he'll check so you see a free card on the river. If the river helps (q or k or make a straight), he may try to bluff at the pot and you can call with top pair or raise with the nuts.
Well played,
Joe
You played it perfect. At no point should you have simply called or, worse yet, folded. You had great position, a single opponent in the blind, and more than enough outs to play it aggressively against even top pair (not to mention the nuts on the turn).
The 10-20 players (or even the 30-60 players) aren't necessarily better players. And being a new face was to your advantage, as it always is at a poker table.
I find myself in early position, having mucked more rag hands than any hold'em player should ever be delt and now I have AJo.
I have raised with this hand, limped with it and mucked it from early position after a raise form an earlier position player.
When I raise I slow down the AK hands, and of course get pounder on the turn after floping an ace. Last night I limped in with it, got an A on the flop, but the little blind was able to limp in with off suit low connectorsn because I didn't raise. He made the stright on the river. This time maybe I should have raised. Where's my crystal ball when I need it?
Any thoughts and how to play AJ from early position.
The Suburban Poker Man
Suburban Poker Man,
This is not meant to be sarcastic or offensive, but only as constructive criticism. Work on your grammar.
My grammar died along time ago. Lets read between the grammar and stick to poker.
SPM
I believe this is a limping hand from early/middle position. You just got unlucky.
Derrick
SPM
This is a limping hand from early position depending on the game. In a full table limit game without to much raising limp with it. If ther is a lot of raising throw into the muck as fast as possible because there is a good chance your dominated by AK,AQ and you'll just wind up paying off. You have to be able to get away from AJ when you play it or forget about playing it up front. Lar
AJ is a problem hand from early pos. When/how to play it really depends on the game texture and if you fear a raise, now suited, I'd go in for 2 bets with it b/c of the chance to draw nut flush and/or top pair, however that's just me and I am sure that I will catch alot of flack for that. As far as os goes, its a tuff call and one that you need to make based on game texture and opponents personalites (ie weak tight, loose passive etc) Ideally with AJ os from early pos, you want alot of loose passive players to act behind you the types that will play any ace, so that there is the good chance that if the ace comes you have him out kicked, playing with tight/good players, your going to be paying off AK and AQ alot. Hope this helps.
In typical (4-5 players seeing flop) and or loose games where more than 5 players is common A,Jo plays better by limping early. In a tough game with lots of raising A,Jo plays better from the muck. This begs the question: Is it ever correct to raise with A,Jo? Yes, but the situations are rare and your image and your opponents yet to act must be considered. You must have a good feel for how your opponents view your play. The game must be fairly tight with not a lot of raising.
gotta go.
vince
I have real trouble resisting the temptation to limp in from early position with this hand, even in tough games w/out a lot of multi-way pots and good deal of pre-flop raising. Rick N or Jim B, how bad is this? I play pretty well after the flop, and know the habits of about 90% of the people I play with. I'm a winning player over the last 2.5 years (not by much), but could I improve my overall expectation by not playing this hand?
Thanks,
Joe
Joe
Avoid this hand early in all tough or semi-tough games. In soft games you should attack or even limp with it early but if you never did you wouldn’t be giving up much. In late position it is a good attacking hand in all games as the chances you will be up against a better hand are greatly reduced.
Regards,
Rick
If you can't raise it fold it.
Some games dictate a fold cuz of the pre flop raising that goes on - others are more passive and you can raise to clear the smog.
I agree with rounder. If you are going to play it, raise! In those very aggressive games or with a very weak image it is probably best to let the dealer take care of them for you. In the games in which I play, raising seems to work very well.
I agree with the raise-or-fold strategy espoused by several of the posters here. Limping is advocated by some 2+2ers, but I don't like that idea at all. Offsuit aces and pairs play best with a raise, because you'd like to reduce the competition and hopefully get heads up against the big blind. If you're in a very loose game, well, your opponents are cold calling two with garbage, so AJ still plays best with a raise. In a game that's very aggressive either before or after the flop, I think you can safely muck AJ in early position. You can also muck it if there is a rake.
If you open-raise with AJ, get one or more cold callers, and then an ace flops, ROPE-A-DOPE! Your hand is not vulnerable, and it may or may not be best. Check-call, check-call, check-call is perfectly acceptable.
If instead the flop misses you, normally bet. There is usually some chance you'll pick up the pot immediately, plus some chance you'll see the turn card and maybe even the river for no additional cost, plus some chance you'll get raised by a draw but get a free turn card and win the pot. There are a lot of exceptions to betting here. If you got 3 tight cold callers, check-fold. If you got 8 callers and the flop came 678 one suit, check-fold. If you got 3-bet by a respectable player, either check-call or check-fold. If a queen or king flopped and there were one or more preflop cold callers, check-fold unless you have a gutshot or other possible outs.
With AK and often AQ, you want to go to the river and will often see the showdown even unimproved. This is much less the case for AJ, which usually fears it could be up against AK or AQ. So, the bet on the flop when it misses you is not so much because you like your hand but because you do not.
-Abdul
Abdul,
I am one of the posters that recommend calling with A,Jo in certain situations. Although I must admit I adhere primarily to the raise or fold strategy but that is mainly because the games I play in dictate that strategy. I agree with the statement that this hand plays better heads up, (I don't agree that small pairs are in the same category) but in a game where no one respects a raise, there is little raising, lots of callers and you know that you cannot slim the field, calling is an option that can work for A,Jo.
Vince.
Hello Suburban Poker Man,
In the games that we play at Hollywood, I muck this hand about 90-95% of the time from early or middle position. If it is suited, I will play it and whether I raise or not depends on the game texture, the players to act behind me, and how good of read I have on what some of the players behind me are going to do such as call, raise, or fold.
In all honesty, I feel this is definitely a hand where you are not giving much up by laying it down and saving yourself a lot of mental torture in the process.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D)
10-20 game. Here are a few hands I'd like to hear from you about.
1) I'm in the BB with A3 of hearts. A solid player with fairly loose preflop raising requirements raises 1st in. Loose player calls, I call. Is it generally foolish to call with A3 suited for one bet here?
Flop comes T 8 3 with one heart. I check, raiser bets, loose player calls. I call. The preflop raiser would bet here with overcards and I figure he's more likely to have overcards than a big pocket pair.
Turn comes another heart giving me bottom pair ace kicker and a 4 flush. I check, he CHECKS, and loose player bets saying 'I have an open ender'.
We both call.
River comes Q of hearts - no board pair. I have the nuts. I bet, preflop raiser calls, loose player calls.
Preflop raiser had AQ, loose player made his straight but was afraid of the flush.
I was told that my play of this hand was bad by the guy who made the straight on the river. Was it? It turns out that from the flop on I had the best hand. I had a good read - overcards, draw.
I felt that if I didn't have the best hand on the flop then I had 5 outs not including my runner runner draw.
-SmoothB-
Here is another hand.
I am in the SB with AcJs. 2 limpers, I call. No raise from the BB.
Flop comes 7c2c2h. I check, checked around.
Turn comes Kc. I check, very very bad player in the BB bets. I know he would bet with any king and possibly any seven of he had a medium - big club to go with it. Or even just a club. So I called thinking that any club or ace would be good, and possibly any jack. Or I might even win unimproved.
River comes another club. I bet, he raises (he would do this even if he just had a lone deuce or lower flush) and I called.
He had 72 for full house (of course).
Obviously I was drawing nearly dead from the flop on. However, I realize now that even if he only had a king, I did not have odds to draw for the flush. Bad mistake that cost me 3BB.
-SmoothB-
If you had raised pre-flop, you might have gotten him out, but most of us don't do that, right? When the K hits and he bets, I would figure at least 12 outs and call also with implied odds of 3 1/2 to 1. I think most everyone with a similar read on this player would do the same.
How many of you would lay this down, and when?
I was in late position with A7 of clubs. 3 limpers, I limp. BB raised. All called.
Flop came A87 rainbow. BB bet, one caller, I raised with 2 pair. Both called.
On the turn, checked to me, I bet, BB checkraised, other guy called both bets andI called.
River paired the board (not my card) but I could still beat AK. He bet, fold, I made a crying call and said AA is good. He rolled it over and took the pot. I said 'Good hand, don't you just love it when you have aces, you flop a set, and some joker with Ace rag flops 2 pair and gives you lots of action? We had a good chuckle about it because I am usually on the winning end of that sort of encounter.
Would most of you dump this at some point?
-SmoothB-
If someone is good enough to dump it without a tell, more power to them.
Every time I get check-raised on the turn, I've ended up looking at a set. Here, the BB raised up-front after everyone limped in (a strong play as it is, usually only done with A-A, K-K, or A-K). When you got check-raised on the turn, I think you knew you weren't looking at A-K.
Given that the raiser was a little loose on his raising, but solid elsewhere, would it be better if you bet out on the flop? just wondering, and I think it matters a lot on how the caller plays. If the raiser has overcards, it's probably headed by an ace, in which case you're well ahead of him at this point (assuming he wouldn't raise with A-10 or A-8). I would like to see him raise you drawing slim, and increase the price to the caller.
I have learned my lesson about playing with calling stations.
We were short handed and I had AQ on the button. 1 limper, I raised, all called.
Flop came K x x. Check check I bet (?) 1 caller.
Turn came a queen. Check, I bet, call.
River came a blank. Checked to me. I just checked along because I had a feeling he had a king with a weak kicker and would call no matter what I did. He, of course, had K3 offsuit.
I have learned my lesson about playing with calling stations, especially if the game is short handed.
Never bet draws unless you are positive that you will get enough callers to make it profitable. Never bet them as a semibluff. Chances are that between 3 calling stations, one of them will flop at least a pair and they'll call you.
Don't bother betting unless you have the best hand. IE if you have KK in late position, an ace flops, and you just KNOW that one has A2, don't bother betting after the flop. Chances are good that they will check it all the way with you anyway and let you see their cheese for cheap.
Playing with these guys can be bad for your health. When the board pairs I have to wonder which one of them just made trips. Etc etc.
Don't get me wrong - I love playing with these types more than any other. But there isn't much skill or strategy involved. Get best hand, bet best hand, haul chips to cashiers cage.
-SmoothB-
SmoothB,
I'd throw this one away to a raise from a player you call both "solid" with "fairly loose raising requirements." Are his raises loose from UTG and early position? Or, does he switch to "solid" mode here? You need more callers to make this call profitable, but after the flop, I think you played correctly.
Does the loose player always announce his draws?
John
With only one caller I don't call pre-flop. But if I'm in I like to lead out on this flop. I use it as an information bet. If the raiser just calls, there's a good chance he has big ace. If I don't get raised I lead again on tha turn (esp. when I pick up the heart draw).Nice bet on the river. Many players go for a check raise and lose 2 calls.
The other advantage of betting this flop when it's likely to have missed everyone is it gives you what I call phantom outs. Even if you're raised on the flop, should a 10 come on the turn it's a scary card for the raiser and you may be able to pick up the pot right there.
I am playing $30-$60 at the Bellagio holding QdJd in middle position. The UTG folds and the three other players limp to me. I limp. The next guy folds. The cutoff raises to $60 and the button re-raises to $90. Everyone calls to me. There is $630 in the pot and it costs me $60 more to call. I hate paying multiple bets to take flops with suited connectors but I am partially in already. The problem is that the cutoff could make it $120 and here in Vegas a cap is $150 for the $30-$60 game. Assuming the cutoff just calls there will be $660 in the pot not counting my $60. I decide to jump the fence and make a very dubious call. Sure enough, the cutoff makes it $120. The button caps the betting at $150 and everyone calls to me. Having trapped myself on the installment plan I toss in another $60. There is $1200 in the pot and 8 players in the hand.
The flop is: Qh9h4s
Five of my seven opponents check to me. I have top pair but who cares? The cutoff or the button probably has pocket Kings or Aces so I check as well. Someone could easily have even AQ or KQ suited. The cutoff bets $30 and the button just calls. Both blinds fold as well as one of the early limpers. The other two players call. There is $1320 in the pot and it costs me $30 to see the turn. I am almost certainly beat but with pot odds of 44:1 I have to play. There is $1350 in the pot and 5 players.
The turn is: 3c
Everyone checks to the cutoff who bets $60. The button calls. Only one other player calls to me. There is now $1530 in the pot and it costs me $60. My pot odds are only 25:1 but I may have as many as 5 outs so of course I have to call. There is $1590 in the pot and 4 players.
The river is: 8h
One player checks. I check. The cutoff bets $60. The button now folds. The other player folds. I call with my pair of Queens and $1650 in the pot. The cutoff says "You win" as I show my hand and he mucks his. I win a $1700 pot with a pair of Queens. The button screams "This is sick!" and takes a long walk.
No one was even on a Heart flush draw. No one could find a raise with all that money in the pot. No had AA,KK, or QQ in a capped pot among 8 players. Bizarre!
Jim,
Can you lend me $50?
Vince
Jim: Can you lend me $100? I will give $50 of it to Vince, I swear.
Thanks Andy. Wasn't it nice of Jim to let us know that he is now among the wealthy? "Spectacular" if I must say.
Vince
Jim:
Nice and, indeed, spectacular win for you. I like your play in the given situation.
Congratulations!
Now aren't you glad I told you to quit playing "weak tight"
I'm sorry, you don't use that terminology anymore, right?
Just think how many times you can call a hand down now with all the money you won in just one pot.
No disrespect but the hand played itself (unless you foolishly fold)
Always remember - most of your opponents don't play like you. Nice hand! - well played sir.
Give me a break. The guy called a capped hand with Q,J. Oh but it was suited. That's different just ask Mason. Good Grief!
Vince.
Jim,
I’m dog-tired but can’t resist commenting on a post with a title like this. Of course I haven’t read the other responses yet, especially Vince who is sure to put me on tilt ;-).
Before the flop you have an easy call unless you are playing at the upper limit of your comfort level for your bankroll, which I doubt is the case. QJ suited just has to love seven opponents even if the pre flop price is very high. And most of the time the pot will settle in at three bets rather than five (I find capping much more common in California where the cap is four bets).
I would lead on the flop even if a better hand such as KK may raise me. In fact, I would welcome the raise. You want the field to be narrowed giving you a better chance to win a monster even if you are not leading at this time. The hand you might want most to drive out (by your opponent’s raise) would be something like an Ah Ts or an As Js. They would easily take one card off for a running flush but might not do so having to call raises and reraises cold.
On the turn I also can’t believe there wasn’t more pressure put on the pot. Once again I think you could have led into the raiser. Big pots are worth relatively big risks.
I’m too tired to say much else but I hope you have fun spending the money.
Regards,
Rick
Rick Nieblo has now officially moved into one of the top ten best strategy posters on 2+2, based on his responses to the last two threads. Mark Glover take note.
I now see that the other Rick post I was referring to was on a different forum, regarding checking AK but not KJ.
O.K, so there's me and Rick (yeah right) and... Who are the other eight?
Vince.
Rick has always been in my top ten. But Dan Hanson and Louie Landale are in my top five.
Jim,
Thanks. But you are the best original hand poster by far. In your lead posts I never get frustrated trying to figure out how the hand was played and they almost always point to something interesting. If you want to make them part of a book feel free to use my responses (for a small percentage). Just see if you can spell my name right. With Oz’s latest misadventure in typing above, I can’t even show the post to Mom and Dad. They go crazy when my name is miss-spelled.
I agree about Dan and Louie. I hope the former returns soon and the latter finds more time to post with his notorious acerbic wit.
Regards,
Rick
When was he ever not in the top ten or the top three for that matter if one doesn't count s,m,z and f.
You make an excellent point. For sure, someone seriously screwed up by not raising on the flop or the turn here and maybe it was me. But I think it was the button. It is simply ridiculous for a pot to get this big with all these players and no one bothers to protect their holding with a raise.
This is why the $30-$60 game is not all that tough and I suspect that Dan Hanson, skp, Louie Landale, yourself, and perhaps other posters on these forums could beat it.
As I noted in an earlier Omaha-8 post, at the higher limits, an HE game often gets crazier, while an Omaha-8 game gets tighter.
Nice hand?
Well played sir?
Gotta check out the price of a ticket to Vegas.
Great hand, Jim. I haven't read the other responses, but I'm surprised you didn't lead at this flop. You are very likely 2nd, 3rd or rven 4th best but isn't the pot big enough to try and protect your outs?
That may be correct. I just felt that between the cutoff and button who were doing all the raising and re-raising pre-flop, my flop bet would just get raised costing me more money to chase. But 2+2 has repeatedly advocated that when pots get big you should do everything you can within reason to win them.
15-30 game, fairly tight. I have A-A in early position and I raise. Next player (solid, female) reraises and all fold, including both blinds. I decide to just call.
Flop comes: J-7-4 rainbow. I bet and she calls.
Turn is a 5, fourth suit. I bet and she raises. I call.
River is a 3. I bet and she raises again. I call and sure enough she has J-J.
I had only seen this person play for 20 minutes or so, but my read was that she is tight and solid. I knew from the flop on that there was a good chance she had JJ but little or no chance of a small pair. I figured JJ, QQ or KK, and most likely KK. My thought on the river was that she can't rule out a straight for me, so even if she has JJ she is unlikely to raise me again.
How much less should I have lost on this hand?
1) reraise pre-flop - you have already shown significant strength, so you might as well bet with the best of it.
2) Flop - ok
3) Turn - I think about reraise here - especially since pre-flop you just called her bet. She could have QQ, KK, AJs (?). WHen you are reraised again, you are dead, but probably have to call and check the river.
There is no chance that she thinks you have a straight on the river - unless you regularly raise from early position with 66 - I would not have bet the river at all, and certainly not based on that "fuzzy" wishful thinking logic. Check call is the only play.
By my calculations, you should have lost an extra small bet pre flop, and maybe two extra BB on the turn with a reraise (and her subsequent reraise). Then on the river, vs your play, if you check call, it saves one BB, and if you muck (which must be considered depending on the player), then you save 2 BB. Net net, you lose up to 1.5 bb more, but play better.
On the river, as I said, I think you had some fuzzy thinking - stating that with the straight potential on the board, you are not going to get reraised - so you bet, after getting reraised on the turn. This is bad
Think about it - There is NO way that she will lay down even the worst hand she could possibly have - AJs. So you bet get called and win - which is the same as her betting and you calling. And if she checks behind your check, that is great - actually what you want at this point. You fear having the worst hand (and you actually do).
So what if you are beat - as happened. You bet, get raised, and making a crying call hoping that those beautiful aces are good, which they arent, losing 2 BB on the river.
Please explain a situation where you are better off with you betting on the river.
Rob -- It was a bad move and that's why we are talking about it. It would have been even worse if (1) she knew I would not play 6-6 or some other 6 hand for a raise in early position; or (2) I knew for sure she was a rock. Given the lack of information, her play made me suspicious but not suspicious enough. I definitely should have checked the river.
Rob,
You wrote: ”reraise pre-flop - you have already shown significant strength, so you might as well bet with the best of it.”
Against multiple opponents the re-raise in mandatory. But head up or especially three way (since there is a cap) slowing down a bit early can add a lot of value later in the hand when you can trap your opponent(s) for extra big bets (they don’t always flop sets ;-) ).
Louie Landale tends to advocate this style in various posts and since I have incorporated it into my game I must say the results have been good.
Regards,
Rick
You couldn't change the outcome here no matter what you did. Getting reraised on the turn is a warning sign that your pair probably isn't good. Thus I probably would not have bet the river (but I would've called). You lost one BB too many.
I would have lost two more bets on the turn and lost one less bet on the river. In limit hold-em she is going to have to show me a better hand. I will not fold an overpair in a heads-up pot. I would call on the turn hoping she is overplaying AJ, QQ, or KK.
Bruce
I know you said the reraiser was a solid player but was she passive? (I don't want to imply that all females are passive players) If she is passive that was your clue that she had the nuts when she raised the turn.
Scott,
You lost the minimum or close to it. I think she makes the mistake of not raising on the flop since she is unlikely to lose most hands that you would bet and she should get more bets and less respect when you hold an overpair. It seems so few players will play the flop hard when they flop big head up that raising rarely gives away the strength of their hand in similar situations.
Anyway, I find the pattern of calling the flop and raising the turn with very strong hands something to avoid against a competent opponent. At the same time, this pattern can be very effective when I hold medium hands or weak hands combined with a draw.
Regards,
Rick
Agreed. If a player is solid but not very creative, you're always up against a monster when they call the flop but raise the turn. Another time you know you're screwed is if on the flop they call a bet that came from their right, then three bet it when a player to their left makes it two bets (this has nothing to do with Scott's hand, but I thought I'd mention it). I probably would have check raised the turn (depending on the number of players, I can't remember how many there were) and perhaps considered dumping after being three bet. But I can't be sure. And either way I guess it adds up to four BB's.
Well, I hate to take issue with anything you say, Rick, given David's nomination of you to the posting Board of Directors (with which, by the way, I whoelheartedly agree: your post in regard to Jim's "Spectacular Hand" was excellent, as are all of your posts), but I think the decision of calling on the flop and raising on the turn is situation dependent and can be used more often than you imply.
Especially at 30-60 and higher, a call on the flop is more ominous than a raise. Now in this case, I believe you are correct, in that the pot was raised pre-flop by a player who then bet into the 3-bettor on the flop. The 3-bettor therefore has to figure Scott for an overpair, and raising on the flop would indeed have had the result you describe: more bets and less respect. But when there is a raise pre-flop and no 3-bet pre-flop, I think it can be a good idea to just call especially on this type of flop (Jack high with no apparent straight draw). (In fact, this is the flop S & M use as an example of a perfect slow-play situation in HPFAP). Many players, given an opponent who just called their pre-flop raise, and just called their flop bet, will fire again at the turn. If the bettor on the flop has, as is likely, two overcards or an underpair, why risk scaring them out before they make a second best hand that will pay you off, maybe even raising, to the end. And if they have an overpair, why keep them from firing at you on the turn?
Andy,
Thanks for the compliment but the reality is even a broken watch is right twice a day. I have a lot to learn but this is the place to do it. Anyway, I’m getting up at 5:30 a.m. these days so I’ll just comment briefly ;-).
“but I think the decision of calling on the flop and raising on the turn is situation dependent and can be used more often than you imply.”
Agreed. I know it is a cop out but so much depends on the exact situation you are in.
“Especially at 30-60 and higher, a call on the flop is more ominous than a raise.”
This is true if you often follow up your calls with pressure on later betting rounds (assuming your hand or the situation warrants it). Players who take one off too often with a weak hand and then give up on the turn are not scary with their flop calls.
“Now in this case, I believe you are correct, in that the pot was raised pre-flop by a player who then bet into the 3-bettor on the flop. The 3-bettor therefore has to figure Scott for an overpair,”
Maybe. A lot of opponents will lead into the three bettor with AK or even less.
“and raising on the flop would indeed have had the result you describe: more bets and less respect.”
“But when there is a raise pre-flop and no 3-bet pre-flop, I think it can be a good idea to just call especially on this type of flop (Jack high with no apparent straight draw). (In fact, this is the flop S & M use as an example of a perfect slow-play situation in HPFAP). Many players, given an opponent who just called their pre-flop raise, and just called their flop bet, will fire again at the turn. If the bettor on the flop has, as is likely, two overcards or an underpair, why risk scaring them out before they make a second best hand that will pay you off, maybe even raising, to the end. And if they have an overpair, why keep them from firing at you on the turn? “
I agree here. If the JJ does not three bet and then flops a set, then a slowplay is the way to go. But after the three bet, calling on the flop is just too suspicious.
Regards,
Rick
I lose more than you did. But I save a bet on the river by checking and calling or betting and folding.
I think this has been discussed before, but I am still kicking it around and would love to see others' views. A friend whose game I respect loves this play: it's folded to you in middle position and you raise with something like KQs. A rational player 3 bets behind you and you are heads up. The flop comes A-x-x, none of your suit. My friend's thinking is that more often than not, the 3-bettor has a big pair and not an ace. So he routinely bets or check raises here. This obviously won't work against a mule who will call you down with QQ.
But what do you think of this play against tighter opposition, and how does the calculus change if you have a pair instead of KQ, or if you flop something like a gutshot plus a backdoor flush draw?
Thanks.
SW
I would bet out and either fold or maybe consider a reraise to the guys reraise. Probably fold.
If he doesn't reraise, I give it one more shot on the turn and hope he lays it down. Then I give up.
This also is also highly denendant on your table image.
I have experimented with this strategy. On my good days it works. It is very player dependent and a lot has to with your present image. Are you stuck or do you have a big stack of chips in front of you? All things taken into consideration I think I would have more money if I just gave up on the flop. I think your friend is underestimating the frequency of being reraised by a big Ace and how stubborn some players can get with pairs.
Bruce
This play is extremely effective against a player who loves to wallow in his bad luck, the kind of player who often tells of the amazing frequency that an ace hits the flop when he has a big pair.
When a player like this three-bets with a medium to large pocket pair, all they are looking for on the flop is an ace. They are looking for bad luck. So when the ace comes, they are all ready to muck in disgust if the action heats up. Against this player, flop-posturing will take down many pots.
With any straight draw, this play becomes even better, since now we're in Doyle's no-limit section. Paraphrasing: If you put your chips in out of line, have some outs.
In your example, those extra outs are huge, since without them, you are done with the hand once you figure out the other guy has an ace. With the outs, you can catch and get paid.
Tommy
Most players who 3-bet pre-flop will bet post-flop no matter what the flop. And many will raise if bet into on the flop, again no matter what the flop. So, unless you know the 3-bettor as a player who will lay down when an Ace flops and misses him, I think it's better, if you want to make a play, to either-check raise the flop, or call and bet out on the turn.
In the bigger games, you see a lot more 3-betting pre-flop with A-K, A-Q and A-smaller than in the smaller games, and of course the possiblity of the 3-bettor having an Ace is higher when you don't have an Ace in your hand. So with just K-Q and no back-door flush potential, I'd give the hand up. I'd save my "plays" for when I have outs should the 3-bettor continue to play.
I love this play and use it often. I'll usually check-raise just because if I'm re-raised it usually confirms an ace. If you come out betting, QQ or KK is likely to raise you hoping to check it down. Your opponent has to play either fairly weak or be willing to 3 bet pre-flop with a variety of hands.
I am having trouble with a particularly good player who undoubtedly views my play as weak/tight. Here's an example hand:
I raised in the cutoff with AKo, he 3 bet on the button with QQ, the BB called, I called. I understand the button probably has me on a steal,and if the BB who is a tight player had not called, I may have made it 4 bets.
The flop came KXX. BB checked, I bet, Button raised, BB folded, I re-raised, Button called. Now at this point after I had raised pre-flop, bet the flop, and re-raised him , I can't imagine what he's putting me on that doesn't beat QQ. Of course I can't know that's what he's got, but it sure looks to me like he'd play AA, KK, AK or a set of X's the same way. With any of these hands I'm getting raised on the turn and I only can tie one of them. He confirmed he was raising me on the turn with QQ on this hand and I believe him!
The turn was a blank and I checked, he bet, I called. The river blanked as well, I checked, he checked. I was upset about missing a bet and thought I had misplayed. In hindsight, I thought I should have either check/raised the turn, OR bet, let him raise me and check the river. In fact, I played another AK in this fashion after flopping an ace, called his turn raise and paid him off on the river. He showed me 2 pair. Now this latter hand had differences that should've been apparent to me, and prevented me from paying him off. But the bottom line is, he's got me checking when I should bet and calling when I should fold. A REAL problem as far as I'm concerned. Any suggestions?
(hopefully he's out of town and will miss this post :) ) Thanks for any advice.
Kevin
Maybe my problem was simply that I had stopped short in my thinking process. I mentioned that I could not come up with a hand he could be putting me on that did not have QQ beat. Therefore, I figured I was playing for a chop at best. But maybe I should have went one step further and considered what he thought I might have him on... Given the situation, the answer is likely a re-steal. Had I came up with this, I would have been able to play my hand in a more appropiate manner. Comments?
You may have actually snagged an extra big bet from him with your check on the turn. If he views you as weak-tight, his raise and call on the flop was probably the right play. He knows a weak-tight won't reraise here without at least AK. He can now fold on the turn if you lead into him and he doesn't improve.
Since you didn't bet the turn, he must have 2nd-guessed his read on the flop. He probably would have called a bet on the river.
If you are afraid he has control over you, you might want to consider just calling his raise on the flop and going for a check-raise on the turn in similar siutations. Don't go overboard with this play, though.
Thanks Michael. Could you elaborate on this comment?
"If he views you as weak-tight, his raise and call on the flop was probably the right play. He knows a weak-tight won't reraise here without at least AK. He can now fold on the turn if you lead into him and he doesn't improve"
Improving would have meant hitting a 2 outer. This might be a perfect example of why I am weak/tight (if that's what I am) because I don't understand his calling even for one more bet on the flop. Pre-flop went to 3 bets. I led the flop, got raised, and re-raised. Since he has QQ, he would have to think that I'd make this play with JJ, TT or worse. In fact, I might have. But he can't consider this very likely. (remember he views me as weak/tight).
btw- he told me that had I bet the turn, his plan was to raise me. As I mentioned before, I believe this. Had I check/raised the turn, he certainly folds. So I make more by betting the turn in this case. But I'm still not sure that's the right play.
My question is, what's the best strategy to use against someone who plays you for weak/tight? Is there anything that can be done that would cause such a player to make mistakes against you rather than visa versa.
If you think somebody has you pegged as tight (especially weak-tight) because of how things have developed in a certain session or two (I'm assuming that your regular opponents will already know better), then the obvious way to use that to your advantage is to try to steal against them more often than you would normally. For instance, in this hand, if you really did have a hand like JJ or TT, you might lead into (or check-raise) him on the turn. If he REALLY has you pegged as weak-tight, this will be an easy laydown for him. Don't get carried away with this, or a good player will become suspicious and decide to "look you up". And once he catches you, your weak-tight image will be history.
Some people will give you advise on how to dispel this image (arguing that it will keep you from getting paid off with your good hands), but IMO being able to pick up pots occasionally when the flop totally misses you is more than worth it, and I never want to go out of my way to dispel that image if I think it has developed with one of my opponents. Besides, if you normally play good aggressive poker, you won't be able to keep from losing that image with your regular opponents anyway.
Good luck,
Steve
On the flop he might not be convinced you have a king. He might be thinking, hoping, that you have a smaller pocket pair.
This happens all the time. We bet with a pattern that screams, "This is what I have! My hand is an open book!" In our own minds we assume that the other player MUST have a good read on us. Well, sometimes they don't.
If you had bet the turn and river, one of two things would probably have happened. You would have earned two bets, or none.
Checking the turn sounds like a decent play here if you're pretty sure he'll bet, but I think you should have considered betting out on the river, for two reasons.
Many players adopt the "Bet the river with a hand I will call with" approach. In this case, that might be JJ or TT or 99 in your hand. So you bet out on the river, and he might call with QQ, whereas checking the river is unlikely to induce a bluff since you called the turn after posturing on the flop. So you might as well bet the river.
I tend to not get fancy with these kinds of hands. I just bet and raise at every opporunity until I'm sure I'm beat or tied. And since I'll push some hands on the flop that don't quite deserve it, I often get paid off by QQ all the way in the situation you described.
If you want to dispel your tight image, the most effective and cheapest way to do it is to chunk some chips around on the flop when you like your hand. Make it three bets more often. Heck, make it four bets now and then with a good but not great hand when you're last to act. Those extra bets give you much info and a spunky image at a low price.
Tommy
Kevin,
Against an overly aggressive opponent who is tricky I would in general have a more conservative approach against them esp. when they have position. Remember he is aggressive and he will bet your hand for you. If you lead on the turn he will probably fold. Don't believe what he said. If you checkraise on the turn what do you do if he reraises? Reraising on the turn and then checking on the river is a strategy overly aggressive opponents will use. Checking and calling is an appropriate strategy against an overly aggressive opponent esp. a good one. Don't be overly concerned about extracting the maximum from this player. That's why he is an expert. Be more concerned about the other players who are your main source of income. Getting an extra bet or two from him is not going to affect your bottum line at all.
Bruce
Agree with your general comments, but I have one nit. If this player is an "expert", then why did he bet the turn after the "weak-tight" reraised him on the flop?
I can understand it if he had something like nines or tens, but it seems like a losing play with QQ. I would take the free card here (and make a decision if my opponent bet the river). With the Kxxx board, a free card is much more likely to help me than hurt me.
I wouldn't play the QQ that way either. Good players have momentary lapses of good judgement also.
Bruce
.
Kevin, if he views you as weak tight, you got more money than you deserved with this hand. Just as you point out his call of a re-raise on the flop is brutal (unless you will lay down your A-K on the turn on occcasion). Yes you should've led out on the turn, and if he has aces or a set oh well.
If he views you as weak/tight, AND if he is willing to lay down hands, you should attempt more semi-bluff steals. Wait 'til you have a draw and you think he's fairly weak and pop him on the turn or (as I prefer) on the river.
The post directly below is in response to yours.
His call of the reraise on the flop was NOT "brutal". By my count, there are 9-1/2 small bets in before the flop, and bet-raise-reraise means he is getting 15 to 1 on his last call. If he snags a queen on the turn, he rates to win at least 2 big bets, and maybe 3. Implied odds here are about 19 or 21 to 1.
The price is just about right, and even better against a guy who gives you TWO shots to hit your Q by checking the turn.
The flop raise and call of the reraise is a pretty standard play against an opponent who won't reraise with less than AK. It allows you to get off the hand with a clear conscience without calling down the big bets on the turn and the river.
I don't like the turn bet, though, as I noted above in my response to bruce.
I also don't think this call was brutal, but I disagree it's correct for only the purpose of trying to snag a 2 outer. You make an excellent point about the turn getting checked. If he has any confidence that the turn might not be bet, this makes it an easy call.
I think his call was correct more due to the nature of the hand. Due to our positions and the way it was playing out, it looked like one of us easily could have been on a steal or re-steal. Folding here may have been weak/tight play for him!
Kevin
I thought I received some excellent responses to this post. I think I learned something from each one.
Maybe I didn't play this hand all that bad. The button's call of my re-raise on the flop was no doubt correct given the size of the pot, and the way the hand had been played up to that point.
With the only remaining overcard left to worry about being an ace, I agree very much with Michael 7 and Tommy that he would do better in the long run by checking the turn. The presense of the King means he is likely either way ahead or way behind. Even though it's unlikely he'd get trapped for more than 1 bet, it's probably better to take the free card and avoid betting a worse hand. (But doesn't this sort of re-open the question of my checking the turn?)
Those who suggested betting the river also gave me much to think about. Thanks again.
Kevin
I would have capped it before the flop. You've probably got the best hand, and even if you don't there's (roughly) a 33% chance that you'll get the best hand on the flop. Also, by capping it here you have a chance of getting the button off a better hand on the flop (i.e., he has pocket 8's and the flop comes Q95, you might be able to get him off his hand).
There are times when you just want to call (usually on the flop) so as to give yourself the opportunity of representing a big hand on a later betting round. For example, should you three bet 9's on the button and end up head up, you might want to just call if the flop comes Q86, with the intention of raising if the turn brings an A or a K.
However, in the hand you describe you just want to take it down on the flop. And since there's no way to figure the button for a real hand (he three bet what looked like a blind steal raise, so he could have anything), you'd just as soon he got out of your way as soon as possible. By capping it, you go a long way towards convincing him you've got a real hand. By just calling you've made it seem that you were, in fact, trying to steal, and are now meekly throwing in another SB in the hopes that the flop hits you like a mallet.
I agree with you about re-raising pre-flop for all the reasons you stated. However, I wonder if you are forgetting about the BB? He, (a very tight player) called 2 cold! This was the main reason I did not cap (4 bets). Even though AK may still be the best hand, this cold call drops those chances. I also thought it might now be advantagious NOT to take the lead depending on the flop. I'm not sure if this is good reasoning or not. Thanks for your input GD.
Kevin
This came up the other night. 20-40, the game is very good. 8 players altogether, with 2-3 players who are playing too many hands, with one player who has been raising pre-flop with group 4-5 type hands from any position.
I'm in little blind, the three weak players call, I have 6-7 off, I toss in the extra $10. BB checks, five players pre-flop.
Flop comes 8-9-10, rainbow. I check, all check to the last position who bets. I check-raise, all fold except original bettor who calls. (I've played with her for 2 years, and she will bet any top pair and perhaps second pair if she's last to act).
Turn comes a 6, which ruins whatever deception I had. I bet, she folds, I take it down. . .
Question -- do I cost myself money in the long run playing this way (check raising the flop instead of calling)? I know I'm up against folks who will call a single bet on the flop in the hopes of catching a J or Q, depending on which one they need. I did not want them drawing, but there are some cards which could have come on the turn which could have made a real big pot for me (e.g, an A or K, and perhaps a board-pairing card which could have made someone trips, with the risk that there is a boat made).
Everyone's input is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Joe
The choice is not between check-raising the flop or calling. The choice is between leading at the flop with your good but vulnerable holding or check-raising. I think you are better off leading at the flop here unless you are quite confident someone will bet. Even then leading has the advantage of 3 betting when you get raised by top pair. The point is that you want to play this hand very fast and force players to pay through the nose to take off cards. You are almost always in the lead but you can be easily overtaken. The last thing you want is for it to be checked around giving a table full of opponents a free card. This is more likely to happen when there is no pre-flop raiser.
Thanks, Jim, that makes a lot of sense. Replaying the hand in my mind, I'm confident I would have made more playing it your way.
Joe
I would bet and reraise if someone raises, which seems likely. The jacks will call you anyway but you can force out the Q-9 type hands maybe.
When I hit a straight on flop with a marginal hand ( so , when i'm a blind ) , I rarely slow play it . You said that there was 3 players who play too many hand , suppose one of this guy has play Qh3h and the flop is check , the turn comes and you see a jack ...problem ' comming up . I slow play a straight on the flop only when my 2 cards are not the 2 smaller or the 3rd and last of the straight and when there are 3 different colors on the flop . I remember something happen to me few month ago :I slow play when I shouldn't have , I'm BB with 10c-8s . The flop 7h-9d-6h . 5 or 6 peoples see the flop including the SB . So , I have teh sraight and slow play it , I check ....and it's check around . The turn , Ah . No nut anymore , I check , and it's check around .Ok , at this point , maybe the straight is good now but the river is a 8h , the board is 6h-7h-8h-9d-Ah , it's check around for the 3rd time , The SB open Qd-4h with a flush , I open my hole , and nobody realize that I have a straight on the flop , they see 2 black cards = no good . Nobody else has an hearth and SB take a small pot with his Qd-4h . That why I rarelly slow play now . Keep your slow play for the 4 of kind that you hit on the flop ...
When there's a two flush on board, I think that rules out any slow play w/ 3 or more players looking at the flop. The average player will never release a 4 flush and will pay you off till the river trying to hit it. If you had a rainbow flop with your nut straight, then a slow play might be reasonable, but w/ the two flush, you have to make people pay. Just my thoughts.
When there's a two flush on board, I think that rules out any slow play w/ 3 or more players looking at the flop. The average player will never release a 4 flush and will pay you off till the river trying to hit it. If you had a rainbow flop with your nut straight, then a slow play might be reasonable, but w/ the two flush, you have to make people pay. Just my thoughts. Also, I don't think a bet on the turn is a terrible play with your straight. For one, if someone has the flush they'll most likely raise you and which point you can fold(unless you're against a tricky opponent who'd raise the bare Kh). But if you're not raised you're probably good unless another heart comes. (I'd still just check it down on the river and call if a heart doesn't come). Also you'd run out all the small/medium hearts and so if the 4th heart hits, maybe the K or Q isn't out there. I dunno, what do the rest of you think about this?
This is going to seem like a stupid question to most, but as I continue to play hold-em, with break even or slightly positive overall results over the last 3 years, this issue still puzzles me:
In an average moderately aggressive 15-30 or 20-40 game with a couple real solid players and a couple not-so-solid players, with 3-4 players seeing the flop, what hands is it correct to just call with pre-flop when you are UTG or two to the left of the BB? I usually just call with: J-10 and Q-J suited, K-Q and A-J off. I raise with everything higher, and fold with everything lower.
Does this make sense? Thanks in advance,
Joe
Yes, This makes sense. It's why you're breaking even instead of winning. These are severe leaks for mid-limit games. Limp with QJo, a hand that dominates you will raise behind and isolate. It also sounds like your game suffers from too much predictability. "Oh, Joe limped UTG? I smell zero or 1 gapped offsuit paint! He raised? Pocket 9's or better, AK, or suited paint." I digress...predictability isn't really the problem, it's positional open limp requirements.
Dan
Unless you're an expert if you never played JTs, QJs, AJ, or KQ early you would be showing more of a profit. The above hands are highly situational and until your game really improves I would tend to pass on those hands.
Bruce
In a 10 handed limit hold-em game you can always limp in with 99, AJ suited, KQ suited, and AQ offsuit under the gun. I think you can usually limp in with marginal hands like 77,88,AT suited, KJ suited, AJ offsuit, and KQ offsuit. In deciding whether or not to limp with a marginal hand you need to assess the likelihood of the pot getting raised. If it is a game with a lot of pre-flop raising you may want to fold these marginal holdings or better yet look for a different game. Marginal holdings lead to more difficult playing decisions once the board cards come but with experience you will make better choices. In addition, the weaker the competition the more prone you should be to play these marginal hands. I almost always limp in under the gun with these marginal holdings because I think I can get away from them better than most when I catch a piece of the flop but a lot of heat gets applied.
my opinion is that UTG is a raise only.now what hands you play there depends on how well you can lay down and just think like this is this QJs a $60 hand if it is raise it up in not fold because you have to remeber the back raise.also i will "bring it up" with alot of those hands but not unsuited that is a no no now if you want to get the right money odds then limp with big suited connecters and hope they all come but don't expect to win with your pair and by the way all mid pairs bring it up so you at least have a shot at winning heads up and if they 3 bet make your mind up after the flop.this gets the money for me and don't ever play QJo UTG you will get broke atleast in my game.
Typical 10 handed 10-20 HE. No really tricky players.
1. Early limper, mid position raise, I call 2 off button w/ AhQh, SB,BB, and limper call. 5 see flop of As8s7h. Raiser opens, I raise, all fold to preflop raiser who calls. Turn 8h. Check to me, I bet and get checkraised. River is Ks. Preflop raiser bets, I fold. Comments?
2. I raise utg w/ KcKs, 4 call behind me, and the BB calls too. 6 see flop of 9c4c4s. BB checks, I bet, call, fold, raise, fold, BB 3bets, and I fold. Comments?
1. When checkraised on the turn against a reasonable, non-tricky player you must be facing AA a good percentage of the time. AK is also possible and all others are distant third. A fold is correct if these hands fit the opponent since you don't have odds to draw to 3 outs of the questionable variety. Why fold on the river when the K is a card that doesn't beat you. Fold the turn and save a bet.
That pair of eights is an ugly sight to top pair and I would expect to see aces most every time.
2. Pedestrian.
-Fred-
Oops, didn't notice the flush. All the cards looked black on my screen ;-)
-Fred-
1. Since the turn card gives you a nut flush heart daw, you might have considered re-raising, which might have assured you a showdown on the river.
2) Overpairs are hard to give up, but in a game as loose as one where you get 4 cold callers when you raise under the gun, one of your opponents most likely has a 4. I also fold, even with the backdoor flush potential.
#1.....Well I cannot tell you if you did the best move , it's all depend of of what what kind of player is the other guy . It's really tought to figurate what was his hand the only thing I can see , he could have AA .If he doesn't , he didn't play that hand well .
#2..You have to be cautious with that hand and that flop . You will have difficulty to improve you big pair . I think that this obviousthat BB has triple 4 and the other has 4 clubs .THe best move was to fold .
My two cents:
Hand 1) On the river I fold. I call the check-raise on the turn with the flush draw. You are almost always up against a bigger hand unless you are playing with a maniac.
Hand 2) It really depends on the players in the game and how the game is presently being played. By your description of the action your hand is probably no good and it's a lot cheaper getting out on the flop than later streets. It also wouldn't be the first time in a situation like that where I've thrown the potential winner away either.
Bruce
1. I think if you call the turn you must make a crying call on river. What did you put that player on? IMHO, the check raise indicated he has an Ax or AA. He could have had AQ himself. If he didn't have AK then he outplayed you.
2. It is truly tough to fold overpairs especially kings or aces. I would give the first raiser a 9 and the BB a 4. That's an easy fold. If I were the BB and I had a 4 I seriously think twice about making it 3 bets. In my limited experience you normally want to keep players in when you have a monster, but I guess the raise is also a good play.
Stephen
These two hands are from Jim Brier's HE Quiz. I agree with the consensus and think the decisions aren't close against typical opponents. Initially, however, I thought they were close, making a crying call in #1 with a big pot and in #2 being reluctant to fold a big pair -- having played hands where it would have been good (not keeping in mind that that is quite the exception and that the hand costs too much to see through).
Jim was quite generous with me in sharing the quiz initially, and patiently responding to my several follow up questions.
I commend the quiz to others, the questions are straightforward, and the caveat "typical game/opposition" resolves most ambiguities (where one wants to add "if So-and-So was on my left, I'd re-raise", etc). In the above hands, I identified clear leaks in my game. In other hands in the quiz, I was amused (and pained!) to quickly see the right answer while simultaneously remembering that I'd made the wrong decision in the heat of a similar/identical battle.
15/30 game bellagio. im on the button with 7c5c. folded around to me. ive been stealing the blinds for about 4 hours from (in my opinion) two weak tight players to my left. i raise(mistake?) sb calls. bb folds. flop 7-5-k rainbow, no clubs. sb bets, i raise, he reraises, i call. (mistake?) i think if sb had kk he would have re-raised preflop. so im thinking possibly king-rag suited. i called his raise instead of reraising, planning on putting in a reraise on the big turn bet. (mistake?). turn card 5. he bets, i raise, he reraises. i reraise. (mistake?) he calls. i feel very good about his call. river card is black. he checks i check (another mistake??) . after thinking this had over i think i made 3 mistakes or soo.. i turn over my cards and he mucks. i would greatly appriciate some thought on how bad i played this ? thx
I don't think Seven-Five suited is a good hand to steal the blinds with normally. I think you should fold rather than risking $30 to win $25.
I like your plays on the flop. Two pair is a good hand in this situation since he will pound the pot with a King.
On the turn, you have Fives full of Sevens. I would play hard on the expensive street just like you did.
But at the river, HOW COULD YOU NOT BET THE RIVER WITH YOUR FULL HOUSE WHEN HE CHECKS TO YOU???? A bet here is automatic.
Note that gunner pointed out that the blinds were weak tight and were folding too often. If that is the case it is correct to raise their blinds with ANYTHING - AA, 75 suited, 72 offsuit, etc.
As long as they both fold at least 43% of the time it is profitable to do this. Actually, it doesn't even have to be profitable that often because sometimes you will beat them anyway, like in this example. Plus you have position. Etc.
The only exception would be if, by doing this, you are afraid that they will catch on and start calling more often (or reraising). If you aren't afr