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Typical/slightly loose $10-$20 game. Loose limper UTG, good player to his left raises, 2 fold, cold call, decent high limit player 3 bets, I'm on the button with black JJ.
I don't like my hand much, but it looks like blinds are all calling, so probably eight way action, so I figure I can stay in mostly looking for the set. I call. Anyone disagree?
Sure enough, blinds call. Flop is KhTd9h. Everyone checks to me. I bet. My thinking is: 1) I might be in the lead. 2) Believe it or not, a couple of the players would fold a Q here, which gives me 2 more jacks as outs. 3) I may be able to take a free card on the turn if I want.
I think this bet is really close, quite possibly should not be made. Any comments/criticism?
All but the small blind call.
Turn is 8s. Amazingly, everyone checks to me again. What would you do?
I bet for about the same reason, with more outs. I'm pretty sure this was a mistake. Comments?
All call to see a river of 3c. Everyone checks, I decide to check. Comments?
The problem with this hand is that the other players treated the play like a low limit game. The pre flop betting indicated some strong hands and although calling to see the flop with JJ was not a bad play, you should have probably checked it through. Not only are you drawing dead to a top pair with a weak kicker, you could also be setting yourself up for a trap with someone who flopped the nut straigt. Its a tough call. I think it really depends on how your opponents were playing throughout the night. We could go on for ever debating about the correct play. But all in all, I personally think the correct play was to check it through, or only bet on the flop, then when you saw 8 people call check it through to the end cuz mid pair is just not strong enough.
On the turn I think betting is hopeless almost every time in this type of situation. You have a great draw and should take the free card. Since their was so much action before the flop and then it came as coordinated as it did, there are just too many ways to lose. You could easily have fallen into a checkraise which you are going to obviously have to call. When the pot is so big you can't make everybody fold anyway.
I think that you have to call pre-flop if you don't think that you will be re-raised; this didn't happen so you must have a pretty good read on the table.
The post-flop play is surprising given your description of your opponents and the number of players in the hand. I would have been worried about getting check-raised on the flop or turn but would have bet out as you did.
I would have bet the river hoping to get a better hand (e.g., QQ) to fold. Your opponents probably put you on top pair with a strong kicker (AK or KQ). You may lose to a hand like top pair with a weak kicker but that's the breaks...
Because of the muti-way action, I think you were correct to call the flop. And I agree you must go for the set. If it comes one high card and two babies, you don’t want to be caught between two big pairs. If there were not the extra callers, you should fold to a solid raiser and reraiser.
I like your flop bet. If you get checked raised, you are up against the king. But you didn’t and you may be in the lead. But I don’t see anyone folding a queen here, especially since it will also be with a card that pairs the board.
Your turn bet is close. I don’t think you get checked raised. A big hand would be afraid to give a free card. With so many callers and a good draw, you might as well bet. At this point there is value because of the callers.
Your river check may be weak. I think you bet for value here. A ten or eight might keep you honest. And if a king calls, well it won’t happen as much.
Regards,
Rick
I agree completely with Rick. I think you should have betthe river, but I probably would have checked (I'm a chicken). I think you have a good chance of winning or buyingthe pot. What happened?
I feel the preflop call is probably wrong. You can get reraised, you don't know if it will be 8-way action yet, you can be up against a bigger pair, and you may well have to dodge all overcards. With the reraising and potential for capping your implied odds are going down fast. You did say the reraiser was a decent high limit player.
M,
Let's take DeadBart's word for it and assume at least one blind will call. The other two raisers and the cold caller of the raise will almost definitely stay in. Let's leave the loose limper in. So he should have about five opponents (I'm not sure how he came up with seven in the original).
Now this hurts the implied odds in that you are starting out paying a big price with a probable overpair out against you. But on the other hand, you will really collect if you hit a set. So the big number of bets pre-flop should generate a tremendous amount of post flop action.
That being said, the key is not to get trapped paying off if you are between an overpair and a high pair.
Regards,
Rick
I agree with what you say but still feel it may be a mistake to call preflop. If it gets capped I doubt if the greater action that might be generated (no guarantee here) will completely compensate for the higher price you paid. In addition, the Jack is a pretty key card to big straights, almost as key as the Ten, so if you hit your set the larger pot will encourage people to draw to any type of straight with the Jack on board (even possibly backdoor straights). At that point you would probably like all straight draws to be folding, not calling.
"But on the other hand, you will really collect if you hit a set."
But shouldn't you adjust a little for those times you will really lose when someone flops a bigger set?
DeadBart-
I may be a little weak/tight in this area, but when a good player raises from early and gets re-raised by another good player, I don't like JJ in this spot.
On the other hand, from the way this hand playes out, it doesn't look like these were tough players. A board of KT9 w/2 hearts for $30 pre-flop and all anyone can do is check/call?
You don't mention if one of your jacks was a heart. I think this is important for how you play the turn. I can't fault you for taking the lead since no one else did. This is just good aggressive play on your part. Although, I think some of the more conservative posters may disagree.
Kevin
.
Interesting comments; they seem to be divided greatly. For anyone who hasn't yet commented, don't be afraid to post your opinion just because I've put up the results.
The big blind showed first, T8c to win the pot with two pair. The first raiser had the other 2 jacks :(. The reraiser mucked quickly and claimed she had AK. I'm not sure I believe her, but I've noticed before that she does have trouble with multiway action; maybe she was afraid with so many callers.
To answer some of the other comments, I wanted to mention that I bet the turn again to try to get out anyone with a Q, as some of these people would definitely fold a gutshot on the turn even though the pot is huge. Of course someone who randomly has a 6 will still make a straight if a jack comes, but I think it is worth a try.
Also, I had a pretty good read on the table and was fairly certain noone would checkraise the turn.
David
1. I would have folded JJ to a 3 bet regardless of the alleged pots odds.
2. Since you did play the hand, I like your bet on
the flop. If you get checkraised, it's an easy laydown. Plus, you are right, maybe you do have
the best hand.
3. I hate your bet on the turn. Take the free card and go for a straight with one card left.
4. Good check on the river.
I recently played in a 20-40 game with a bunch of regulars who play 10-20. I am curious about a few hands which I think I may have misplayed.
Hand 1: I just won the previous hand UTG with AQ beating the BB who held AJ. This player who is usually solid opened with a (steam??) raise UTG. I folded AJs and would have won a nice sized pot had I played. Was folding preflop a mistake? I was expecting 1 or 2 more callers and possibly the blinds calling. I feared being outkicked if I flopped an ace and the possibility of a preflop reraise behind me.
Hand 2: I'm in the BB with KJ. 2 limpers call (EP and LP) early position is tight aggressive and late position is weak aggressive. SB calls. Flop is KdJh9s rainbow. Checked around to LP who bets, sb folds, I raise, EP calls, LP reraises, I cap, and EP calls. Turn is 4c. I bet and both players call. River is 7s. I check, EP bets and we both call. EP had QTo and LP had AA.
Hand 3: I have AA UTG and raise, button and blinds call. Flop comes Th9s7c. Checked to me, I bet, button raises and BB calls. I thought of reraising, but just called. Turn is 7d and BB bets into us. We both call. River is a Qh and again BB bets and gets two calls. BB had 7h3h(?????) and button had Ts9s.
Any feedback is appreciated...
Hand #1- I like your thinking. I don't think you will go too wrong by folding in this spot.
Hand #2- This is just one of those situations where there's no way to avoid losing some chips. I think you did what you were supposed to do. Take control and lead with your top 2 pair. When you don't get raised on the turn, it's a good sign. Only if both EP AND LP were extremely good tough players, could you consider not making the overcall on the end.
Hand #3- This is the only hand where I don't necessarily like your play. This is not the best flop for AA, but I think you need to find out what's out there. If you raise the flop, the button re-raises and the BB SHOULD fold his 73! You can't like it, but it gets the BB out, and now you shut down. When the board pairs on the turn, this probably doesn't hurt your hand if you are already beat, and may have helped it. Raising the flop, most likely gets you the pot. That's my take anyway.
Kevin
With regards to hand #3, if the BB calls $20 cold initially he is certainly going to call another $20 cold. I think our hero is destined to lose the hand however he plays it.
Bruce
Hand 1: If you suspect that UTG is weak, why not reraise? This would isolate EP and give you position. AJs falls in the middle range of the second group in S&M card rankings and is a playable hand against a raise.
Hand 2: Your check raise from early position is a good play. When the EP cold calls a raise you have to respect the fact he may have a completed hand with this coordinated board and is slow playing his hand, especially since there are no flush possibilities. I would not have capped the betting on the flop and just called the raise by the button and shown the hand down. I don't think you will lose anybody based on the flop betting. Tough luck.
Hand 3: When you show strength pre-flop and on the flop and are raised by a late position player, you usually have to consider a strong hand, especially with this coordinated board. When a bet out of no where comes from the BB when the board pairs, you most certainly are beat and could possibily be raised. I would lay down the hand.
Regards, Dugie
I am in Seat #3 as the big blind holding the 6h5h. #4 limps in under the gun and #7 raises to $60. #9 calls. I call for another $30. #4 calls. There is $260 in the pot and four players.
The flop is: Kh5s2c
I check my middle pair in this raised pot. #4 checks. #7, the pre-flop raiser, bets $30. #9 folds. I call for $30 with almost $300 in the pot with my 5 outer. #4 calls. There is $350 in the pot and three players.
The turn is: 6d
I check, planning to check-raise since #7 was the pre-flop raiser and bet the flop when it came King-high. But #4 checks. #7 checks. My plan failed.
The river is: Qs
I now bet $30 and only #7 calls. I win as he mucks.
Comments please.
Preflop and flop play in my book are fine. Your choice of going for a check-raise or leading on the turn really boils down to whether you think the initial raiser will bet or not. I really can't fault your play. One thing you have to take into consideration is the fact that I'm sure you have a tight image so when you call on the flop unless the raiser can beat a pair of Kings he probably will not bet. So if that's the case betting on the turn may be the best play. I assume you bet $60 on the river.
Bruce
I think you should bet out on the turn against an aggressive player who you think has a K. You may trap people in the middle and he likely will raise his K/good kicker. You can now re-raise and max out your hand. I've said this before, but I'm always a little slow to someone on a set, in this case KK.
Kevin
Apparantly, the pre-flop raiser did not have a K. He bet the flop to try to win the pot right there. With K -rag-rag there is a good chance that he would succeed. When he gets 2 callers, then he figures that someone has a pair, probably a K, if not that then a set. So takes the free card on the turn instead of trying to bluff again.
I would guess that UTG had a KJ or KT, or worse kicker. He flopped top pair, but knew that he could be out-kicked by #7. Also, he is out of position so he decides to check-call to induce #7 to bet a worse hand.
I think that you played it right, Jim. Going for the check-raise on the turn was the right play.
Steve Fiete
Against most opponents, I would have bet out on the turn in this spot. Seat 4 could easily have 2-3 outs against your hand, so I wouldn't want to risk giving him a free card. [There is less reason to worry about giving seat 7 a free card, since he would probably bet with most hands which were not drawing dead to you.] If seat 7 was the type who would lead-bet again on the turn with AQ/AJ, then he might also be the type to raise your turn bet with AK/AA.
Assuming this was a typical middle limit game and assuming you had a table image as a tight-aggressive player, wouldn't a check-raise on the flop be a better alternative? On the flop, when it is checked to #7 and #9 folds, you have a great opportunity to win the pot outright here with a check-raise, or at least go heads up with the raiser. An opponent would be hard pressed to call two bets with a pair lower than the King or a big Ace, which are precisely the hands you want to get rid of.
Even if you are called or re-raised in this spot, you are not limited to a five outer. Any 3 or 4 gives you a backdoor straight draw and any heart gives you a backdoor flush draw. I'm probably wrong here, but I calculate that to be 21 cards of the unseen deck that can help improve your hand. All of these extra outs adds greatly to the value of your hand, thus improving your chances of winning the pot. It is because of these extra outs, that I believe that a check-raise is the correct play on the flop. If the right card did hit the turn, then a case could be made for betting out(if you were only called on the flop) or a check-raise semi-bluff(if you were re-raised on the flop).
Also, if you had an image as a tight-aggressive player, playing this hand more aggressively would probably enhance your image. Showing down this hand would probably ensure future action on my better hands, leave more doubts in my opponents mind as to what I was holding, and less likely that my opponents would take "shots" at me on future hands.
I would have preferred there be at least one more limper to call the raise with 65suited from the big blind, but this call can by no means be deemed foolhardy. (Have you decided to play a bit less tight lately? Just a hunch.)
The backdoor flush draw combined with the possibility that the flop put you ahead argue for a call once #7 bet the flop.
I would have tried the checkraise play also since your two-pair is "camouflaged." Based on his check on the turn and call on the river, I'd say #7 held AQ. Had you bet the turn, I doubt he would have called. Hard to say what #4 called the flop bet with (A2suited?). Seems unlikely he would have called either had you come out firing on the turn.
Apparently, then, your check on the turn landed one more big bet than if you had foregone the checkraise attempt.
I like the way you played the hand.
One trouble with a check-raise on the flop is that the UTG player may have intended on check-raising and you can find yourself in a pot for 3 bets with 6 outs(backdoor flush). I like the call. If I thought there was a decent chance that I was ahead of the #7 hole I would check-raise, but if I thought I was behind here I would call.
I think that the reason the check-raise attempt failed on the turn was because your opponent knew that you called with *something* and he wasn't very strong. I occasionally make the play of counter stealing on the turn by lead betting after calling a bet on the flop with nothing, so I might go ahead and bet the turn with this hand to provide balance to my game.
In retrospect, knowing that your opponent didn't have a King, a check-raise on the flop would be correct. Having your hand between the other two players and not having any indications as to their holdings, I like the call. My experience has been, however, that it is usually worth putting heat on a player who likely has over-cards that will beat your hand if he continues in situations where the #7 hole might have something like AQ.
With #4 in the pot I would have bet the turn. Heads up with the raiser I would have checked the turn.
Jim:
I haven't read the other comments, but here are mine.
Mason
"I am in Seat #3 as the big blind holding the 6h5h. #4 limps in under the gun and #7 raises to $60. #9 calls. I call for another $30."
I agree with this call.
"#4 calls. There is $260 in the pot and four players."
The flop is: Kh5s2c
"I check my middle pair in this raised pot. #4 checks. #7, the pre-flop raiser, bets $30. #9 folds. I call for $30 with almost $300 in the pot with my 5 outer. #4 calls. There is $350 in the pot and three players."
You have a problem here. Your hand may be best. With that being the case, you may have wanted to consider leading with a bet. However, I frequently would check to watch the action. Given that you did this, I would strongly consider check raising. This raise would be especially good against a player who migh call your check raise with something like a pair of jacks, but then fold on fourth street unless he improves (or picks up a draw).
"The turn is: 6d
"I check, planning to check-raise since #7 was the pre-flop raiser and bet the flop when it came King-high. But #4 checks. #7 checks. My plan failed."
There's a lot to consider here. I certainly would go for the check raise against someone who is prone to bet again without having a king (or better). However, you should strongly consider betting since there is a good chance the before the flop bettor does not have a king. (If he does have something like AK he may raise after you bet so the two bets go in anyway.
"The river is: Qs"
"I now bet $30 and only #7 calls. I win as he mucks."
If you check here, and the other player checks, you are both telling the original raiser that you don't have a king, and probably don't have a queen. If he holds a queen, he should be inclined to bet it, especially if he is aggressive. I'm not saying it's right, but you should have considered going for a checkraise.
BB has 65s, flop is K52...Mason says "
You have a problem here. Your hand may be best. With that being the case, you may have wanted to consider leading with a bet. However, I frequently would check to watch the action. Given that you did this, I would strongly consider check raising. This raise would be especially good against a player who migh call your check raise with something like a pair of jacks, but then fold on fourth street unless he improves (or picks up a draw). "
1. What would you do if there's a bet and a raise on the flop? (I think everyone would agree a fold is good). 2. What would you do if the 9 seat (cutoff) called the 7 seats (pre-flop raiser) bet? (I would just call and pray for trips or 2 pair). 3. What would you do if the 7 seat is someone who will call you down the river with 77-QQ, but will fold without a pair on the turn? Would it still be correct to raise in order to try to kick out seat 4 (and then bet again on the turn, of course)? If this is close, does the fact that you may showdown only a low middle pair make your future check-raises more profitable (because you will probably get callers when you do have top pair)?
A checkraise of the pre-flop raiser's bet on the flop backfires if he holds AA, AK, or KQ and elects to reraise (I would). What two-pair is he likely to fear? Now instead of ponying up one small bet to see the turn, suddenly it costs three and the pot doesn't warrant that large an investment. Or what if #7 held QQ, JJ, Kxsuited and decided to call call call in case the big bliind was pulling a stunt. Even with stakes this high, I can imagine there are many players who would do this, rightly or wrongly.
I doubt a thoughtful player would raise with just a pair of queens on the river. A check by the big blind on the turn following by a bet on the river means one of three things: 1) he had a powerful hand on the turn and was intending to checkraise; 2) he holds K with a weak kicker 3) he is bluffing. In the first two cases, a raise with the pair of queens loses an additional bet, and, in the third instance, it gains nothing when big blind folds his empty tent. Therefore, there is little to recommend a checkraise on the river.
8-16 at the Bellagio. Game is fairly tight, passive.
I'm on the button with KhJh. Middle position player (MP) limps (semi-tight bad player, passive), Late position player (LP)limps (loose, passive) I limp, SB folds, BB checks.
Flop: 10h, 9c, 3s. Checked to MP who bets, LP folds, I raise, BB folds MP calls.
Turn: 2s
MP checks, I bet, he folds.
Comments.
Hard to fault success :)
Your turn play revolves around what you read MP to have. The fishies in my pond tend to be pretty tenacious with any pair, so my tendency would be to check the turn assuming any paint on the river is a winning card for me. If MP doesn't have a T , the 2 couldn't have helped him, so it looks like the bet was the best play.
-Oz-
I think that I would have raised pre-flop. The way that you describe the 2 limpers, it sounds like you probably have the best hand. Plus you have position.
Not much to add, job well done.
Today I was in a hand that confused me.
10-20, six-handed.
UTG limps in. I limp behind him with 9-9. Everyone folds behind us, both blinds call.
Flop comes 8-7-2. UTG bets, and I raise. Blinds fold.
Turn comes, a 5, giving me an overpair and a gutshot draw. UTG thinks for a minute and checks. I normally play aggressively here, but I know he's calling and from his mannerism I think I'm beaten. River pairs the seven and we both check. UTG turns over A-A. That was the absolute last thing I was expecting to see.
Any comments appreciated!!
Strange hand. I think both of you played it poorly.
You don't say if you bet or checked on the turn but it seems like you checked the turn and the river. In this situation I would always bet the turn because you have an overpair. If UTG raises you, I would be worried but would probably call the raise and then call the river, depending on the player.
You say that you could tell by his mannerisms that you were beat... if this is the case then I guess you made the correct call but this guy must have some very easy tells. What did you think he had? You thought you were beat yet you were also shocked when he showed AA.
Anyway I think you should almost always continue to bet your overpair until the board gets very scary or someone raises you.
As for the UTG player what the heck was he doing? He played his rockets absolutely terrible. First of all he slows plays them before the flop, then on the flop he comes out betting, when he is raised by you he doesn't re-raise. Then he checks the turn and river. It's possible you have a straight or trip 7's but not likely. He played his hand absolutely terrible and you should be glad you lost as little as you did.
I think the guy only called with AA on the flop so he could check raise on the turn and gain an extra small bet. What do people think of this strategy?
I don't agree with this strategy at all. Why wait for the turn and give everyone a chance to hit their draws? I think you are asking for trouble by doing this. Maybe do it occassionally to mix up your play but that is all, IMHO.
In this particular case their was no bet on the turn so the guy with AA couldn't check-raise. Now everyone gets to see the river for free.
But this guy was heads up and the other player was going to stick around to see the turn anyway since he raised the flop, and he was likely to be the turn.
...and since he raised the flop heads up it was unlikely he was on a draw.
10-20 HE. Typical game, neither too tight or too loose.
Scenario 1.
i am in the cutoff seat and call 3 limpers with 4c4d. button folds and both sb and bb call. Flop 4h 6h As. sb and bb check. first limper bets, 2nd raises, 3rd folds and i reraise. sb folds and bb caps. first limper folds, 2nd limper and i call the cap. turn 9c. bb bets out, 2nd limper calls, i raise and bb reraises. first limper folds. its up to me and all the cues say i'm beaten but i call two more big bets to see bb turn over pocket sixes.
Scenario 2.
i am 2nd to speak and have AcAh and raise. Two late callers, sb folds and bb calls. Flop Kh Ks 6h. bb check, i bet, both callers fold and bb calls. turn 6d. bb checks, i bet, bb raises. the bb is a solid player. all the cues say i'm beaten but i call two more big bets to see the bb turn over A Ko.
Scenario 3.
i am in the bb with 9c 7h. Tough player raises from mid position. Two callers, including one loose maniac type. its up to me and i call (is this a mistake?). Flop 7c 9d Qc. i check. tough player bets. one caller folds, maniac calls, i raise. tough player reraises, maniac calls and i also call. turn Jc. i bet, tough player raises, maniac reraises. its up to me and i call, tough player calls, and we both call one more bb to see the maniac turn over 8 T.
How much a part of playing well after the flop is making laydowns with good hands? would you experts have laid these hands down? In the third scenario i know i played badly from start to finish but i included it as an example of a situation where an expert laydown would have saved bets. Are making these types of laydowns a big part of winning for you guys?
comments and extreme criticism welcomed.
I love this post. I am going through the same problems as you describe. I am trying to make more laydowns when I know I'm beat. Tonight I had AQo utg, raised and it came back to me capped. I called and the flop was Axx rainbow I checked and it came back to me capped again. This is a 10/20 game with good players. I folded and of course the turn was a Q which would have won a gigantic pot. Now I think I'm going back to chasing (just kidding). The 2 winners split the pot with AK's
Scenario#1: Not much you can do here except payoff the better hand. Even if I was fairly sure I was beat, I would have to payoff. Being oversetted is a fairly rare occurrence. Also, BB may have overplaying Ah9h.
Scenario#2: Your pre-flop raise is of course good. The bet on the flop is also a good move because it allows you to define your hand. However, when the solid player in the BB called, it should have sent warning bells. It should have screamed " He has a King." Betting on the turn is absolutely insane. When it was checked to you again, why not take the free card and hope you hit an Ace on the river? Even if you felt compelled to bet the turn to find out "where you were at." The check-raise on the turn should have answered this question. I think you lost too much on this hand when you could have gotten away from this rather cheaply.
Scenario#3: Calling a raise with 97o was very marginal. What kind of flop were you looking for? On the flop you got a good flop for you hand and I think the check-raise was ok (although you never should have gotten involved with this hand in the first place). But I don't understand your rationale for lead betting the turn. All four cards are in a "straight zone" and there is a club flush on board and you bet into a tough player who re-raised your check-raise and a maniac with the bottom two pair?? Did you think they were both going to fold because you were representing a flush? When raised and re-raised on the turn, fold your hand. Again you lost way too much money on this hand.
Are you sure you weren't the maniac?
In scenario 2, I don't know that the bb call screamed "he has a king". A "good" player probably would have raised his set with two suited cards on the board. I think it's reasonable that the bb could have been on a draw in which case betting the turn so as not to give free cards wouldn't be "insane".
Good point. I missed the flush draw on board in the post. Maybe "insane" was too strong a word, I probably should of said "risky." However, I still think Jack should have folded when check-raised on the turn. I don't think a most players would semibluff in this position with a flush draw.
Jack:
1. A choice to fold on the turn can range from being correct to terrible depending on the opponent. The main issue is how your opponent can play a draw. You need to know you're beat 8/9's of the time, which to me seems to mean you'd have to know this player well. I'd always call a stranger.
2. Since you could easily have a pocket pair or a king, this seems to be a bad spot for your opponent to try a pure bluff, which is the only thing besides a king that remotely makes sense. Call if his judgment is bad or if he might be steaming, fold against a normal player.
3. I wouldn't call with 97o in the bb because these guys will probably make it expensive on the flop and a cheap draw is about the best I can hope for. I also have an opponent that probably isn't bluffable before the river, if there. On the turn, I wouldn't call the two big bets with bottom two. Even a "maniac" knows a protected pot when he sees one, and what kind of maniac waits to pick up a draw on the turn before going aggressive against two raisers?
Scenario #1- It's hard not to lose chips when you run into a higher set. Not much you can do here...
Scenario #2- You easily avoid this trap on the turn by checking behind the BB. There are no draws to speak of. You are either beat or have the best hand. In addition, there are no overcards to your 2 pair so giving a free card should be pretty harmless here. Another benefit of playing this way is you may induce a bluff or call from the BB on the river.
Scenario #3- 97o is always marginal in a raised pot regardless of implied odds IMHO- When the straight AND flush get there on the turn, you might want to consider checking. When it was raised and re-raised back to you, I cound 15 BB's in the pot. This is not enough for you to draw at 4 outs. I thinking folding is clear.
Kevin
Scenerio 1- Not much you can do about getting set-undered (I was actually quad undered once in an online game. I'm not sure why I'm even mentioning this except just to whine). I would have called him down just as you did.
Scen. 2- If your opponent is a decent player you may want to check the turn. You could get one more bet out of him on the river this way if you manage to induce a bluff, and you save 2 BB's if he has a K or pocket 6's. If your opponent is a fish then I would bet, but if he's a loose passive fish then I might muck on the turn to a check raise. One thing to remember about bad players--- they're more likely to check-raise with a great hand than a good hand, since in their minds they think they're 'getting more money in the middle', even if the check raise scares out some players they would like to have call.
Scen. 3- I would have mucked B4 the flop. That said, you have to fold on the turn here. Ask yourself-- "What hand could my opponent have and bet this way that I can beat?" Sure, you've got two pair, but what does he have?
Hand 1- Tough beat, nothing you can do. That's part of the danger of playing small pairs. The way the hand played out, you've got the 2nd nuts. Pay him/her off.
Hand 2-It's 50/50 whether I bet this on the turn. I think it's a negative expectation bet. The flush draw folds, the pocket pair likely folds andyou get raised by any K or 6. If the player isn't overly tricky, lay it down on the raise.
Hand 3- Calling a tough player with 7-9o wwith only 2 other callers is a bad idea.
Winger
This hand came up between 2 very good players, one of whom (Player A) is the best I've seen at this limit.
Player A raised from early, all fold to the button who makes it 3 bets. BB calls, as does Player A, 3-way.
The flop was KQJr. Player A checks, button bets, BB folds, Player A calls. The turn is an off 9. Player A bets, button calls. River is a 3. Player A bets, button calls. Player A= JJ. Button= AA.
ON THE FLOP- I'm somewhat confused by Player A's decision to check and call the flop here. I would think he doesn't want a T or A for that matter drawing cheaply. Also, he likely gets action on this flop from the button who 3-bet pre-flop.
ON THE TURN- Of course, since he played the flop in that manner, Player A bets the turn. But how much can he like it if he gets raised now? Is it possible to make a case that if the button raises the turn and bets the river, Player A now has to at least consider a fold?
ON THE RIVER- When Player A bets the river, what are the chances the button's AA is any good? From the way the flop played out, it's unlikely Player A has AK. AQ/KJs are minute possibilities. Everything else (KQ, KK, QQ, JJ, TT) with the remote possibility of a chop (AA) has the button clearly beat. I'm having a hard time figuring this hand out. Can someone shed some light? Thanks.
Kevin
I see two scenarios here:
The button is a rock, reraising with minimum AK/TT (and the bb is mushbrained), after all, it was an utg open-raise. Your pal knows his JJ might be in trouble, goot flat call preflop.
The board spells trouble despite flopping the set. Best strategy: rope-a-dope all the way with this non-lay-downable (boy am I good at this) hand.
The turn card helps a bit, strangely as it seems. It's headsup now and the button can't raise now with his better set (barring TT straight). Since your hero can't fold, he might as well bet (and call if raised, drawing to the boat and paying off cursing under breath unimproved). Same thing on the river, the bet is correct as AK/AA hand will check behind but the better one is going to bet if checked into.
Good play, I think. Maybe too good.
The button is overaggressive. If yes, hero should fourbet preflop. If the button has him beat, the bb is covering the bulk of expenses for the mistake. With no third party in there, a flat call is goot even with AA (check-raising the flop to recoup).
Player A got greedy on the flop, he's going for the turn check-raise. The bad turn card fuckabooms his plans. He has to bet out now as the board is too scarry, button is in position and is not betting unless he holds a better set (ok, he still might bet KQ). It's a slowplay gone wrong. A good rule of toe: never slowplay with two Broadway cards on flop.
Bad, bad play.
It depends on the button, really. Given the $10-20 stakes, I'm more inclined to believe it was a fishy play.
BTW, did I see something about folding the set in your post? Did I read that right? Considering the moderate action there, it is unthinkable, can I make you agree on this? If I catch you do that in my game, you are toast.
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Thanks Izmet for the very insightful analysis. Given a choice between Genius and Retard, I have to lean toward genuis with this particular player. Although I guess anyone can make a questionable play at times, this player has never been prone to "fishy play". The button also is a very good player and would most likely be very tight in what he raised Player A with (your AK/TT was probably very accurate) . I wasn't there, but it's very possible the BB was mushy.
You can make me agree that folding a set on the river is unthinkable (I never said to consider folding the turn), if you can tell me what hands the button might bet (after raising the turn), that don't beat JJ. I already agree folding a big hand on the river is almost never correct. But if the odds you are getting to make a call on the end are considerably less than the odds your oppoenet is bluffing, isn't this where good players make/save that extra bet that lesser players would not? Thanks again.
Kevin
Folding a set on the river correctly can be done against *very* predictable opponents only. In this case you are exploiting their weakness and straying off from optimal play (which means your opponent can hurt you badly if he suddenly sees the light and chooses to counterattack next time for whatever reason). If a scary board and a little Fekali enema (raising on the turn) is all I need to make my opponent lay down a set, hey, I'll start doing it for fun of watching his contorted face ("Damn Albanian pigmolester sucked out on me again!!!"). If a player is capable of laying down a set, don't you think I can make him fold a top pair with a stinky kicker next time? I might spend my monthly enema supply on this guy alone, that's for sure (until he adapts, of course).
Some of the best players I play against (gone are the days of my sitting at the table with 9 clueless opponents, it's "study the best" for me now) will raise the turn on dangerous boards just to test the waters (and to buy a free showdown on the river) and they often might follow with a bet on the river if they smell weakness (and more importantly, if they can smell a set-folder). I've seen too many cold bluff river raises (and some 3bet bluffs) to even consider folding such a strong hand, and some tough players will raise because they don't like their hand (and trap you with their rope-a-dope flat calls when strong).
Of course, I see your point, against known weak-tighties, correct monster laydowns are possible. But you need to be *very* sure of what you are doing.
To answer your question, some of the players I play against could raise the turn and bet the river with 99/AQ/AK/KQ/QJ. Some will cold bluff on a whim. It's not likely, though, I do agree.
For more discussion on (non) merits of exploiting via laydowns take a look at the January archives for a thread that started as "Oh man, Jim's gonna be all over this check-raise" and then turned into a long discussion on whether the call at the end was correct or not. Abdul's comments there are probably the best info on the subject available.
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Thanks Izmet. I will check out that thread. This is an area of my game (more raising on the turn) where I am trying to become stronger or at least tone up some of the unused muscles. With AK/AA and the button in this spot, I'd reason that I may very well be drawing and I just wouldn't want to make it too expensive for myself. As for betting the end, I am much more inclined to value bet when first to act than last. Maybe it's because the level of competition is weaker in the games I play in, but I've found that you are much less likely to be called by a worse hand when you are last to act than first. Thanks again.
Kevin
I agree with your assessment of Player A's check-call on the flop. Player A should lead at the flop with bottom set in this raised pot. With that flop he will get played with and he needs to put maximum pressure on anyone with an Ace or a Ten.
On the turn, he suddenly finds a bet when there are four parts to a completed hand on the table. If raised, he is probably beat but he cannot ever fold under any circumstances because with a set he has 10 outs to fill. A fold would be unthinkable even if he is raised.
At the river, from the button's perspective, it sure looks like Player A has a Ten for a straight. But if he doesn't, his pocket rockets lose to two pair or a set which is quite likely given that board. Nevertheless with all that money in the pot I think the button has to call at the river hoping his opponent was betting AK or AQ.
Kevin:
I do not know about slow playing the flop, but if he did choose to slow play the flop, the turn bet out was a wonderful move. He can only be raised by a better hand because the button must fear a strait. Player A, if raised, can call the turn raise and fold the river if he does not boat. The fold on the river can be made with absolute assurity that he is beaten.
Frank Donnelly
The fold on the river can be made with absolute assurity that he is beaten.
Huh? Not against the best or the worst players.
He can only be raised by a better hand because the button must fear a strait.
Anybody who is contemplating (and letting me know about it) to fold a set at any point in any given hold'em hand will get his ass raised in this spot with almost any two cards, but not with a better set.
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
I think there are times when you can muck a set on the river with a clear conscious. I've never mucked a set before the river, so I can't speak for the turn or the flop... but I can't imagine that 'putting a guy' on a higher set is a real +EV move.
That said, I agree that if you're losing money at the HE tables, it's not because you call on the river too often with hidden sets.
I folded a set of Jacks on the flop once. A LOL flopped a set of Aces and there was no doubt in my mind about it. After the hand she confirmed the fact. This occurred a long time ago and I don't remember the particulars, but I was upset about playing my hand to begin with. I don't think I ever saw her raise with anything other than KK or AA.
Bruce
ON THE FLOP- I'm somewhat confused by Player A's decision to check and call the flop here. I would think he doesn't want a T or A for that matter drawing cheaply. Also, he likely gets action on this flop from the button who 3-bet pre-flop.
It depends on his read. If he thinks the button has AA, then a slowplay is not a bad move. On the other hand, if the button has KK or QQ, Player A has a big problem.
ON THE TURN- Of course, since he played the flop in that manner, Player A bets the turn. But how much can he like it if he gets raised now? Is it possible to make a case that if the button raises the turn and bets the river, Player A now has to at least consider a fold?
Not on the turn, player A has 10 outs against a straight if he does not think he is set undered. "A" leads to see if he is indeed set undered of not. Also, if the button has AA or AK, he will call. If he has a 10, he will raise. My guess is "A" will 3 bet if raised by the button and if 4 bet, he will back off. He can fold if he does not fill up.
ON THE RIVER- When Player A bets the river, what are the chances the button's AA is any good? From the way the flop played out, it's unlikely Player A has AK. AQ/KJs are minute possibilities. Everything else (KQ, KK, QQ, JJ, TT) with the remote possibility of a chop (AA) has the button clearly beat. I'm having a hard time figuring this hand out. Can someone shed some light? Thanks.
Slim and none. The button should have folded.
Kevin,
Pre-Flop - I do not see any problems with the play.
Flop - I think the utg player should have bet and hoped for the button to raise to force the BB out with a gutter ball straight draw, or at least make BB pay if he has an open-ended strainght draw or if he has flopped 2 pair or if he has played a trap hand such as AQ for the 3 bets pre-flop. I am definitely wanting to get the hand heads up at this point. Since BB folded for buttons bet, this is irrelevant as it turns out. However, I am also trying to punish the button if he has reraised with AK/AQ/KQ, etc.
Turn - If I am utg - I have bet the flop and if the button has raised, I have now just called the raise. Given this scenario on the flop, I see 2 options here. A. Utg can simply bet out the hand again and if the button raises again, he can reraise or simply call if he really feels the button has a higher set. B. Utg can go for the check raise on the turn. I think it really just depends on the opponent on the button. If I am confident he will bet, I will definitely go for the check raise.
River - I simply bet out the hand and get paid off.
I disagree with the utg player laying the hand down. I see absolutely no possibility of laying this hand down given the way it was played out. Even if it had played out differently, I think this is just a situation where I would have to pay off the set over set if I was beat - but I do not lay it down at all. I do not think the button can lay down either but is simply in the unenviable position of having to pay the hand off. If I am the button, and I know I have a large (very large) amount of respect from the utg player, I may raise the turn to try and win the pot outright and then simply check the river unless a 10 hits. Again though, this is a very risky play that I would only make against a passive opponent who will not come back at me on the turn - because if he did, I would most likely have to muck AA given the board.
Just some thoughts.
By the way Kevin - who is this best player. I am very curious to know.
Michael D (soccer/sucker Mike)
Thanks for the response Mike:
The more I play this game, the more I think that the simpler you make your decisions the better. (at least at the $10-$20 level or should I say at my level since I am yet not good enough to play through very tricky situations). For this reason, I can't see Player A check/raising the turn. If he gets re-raised he has to call. If he does not improve on the river now what does he do? Check and call? What could the button have re-raised the turn AND be betting the river with that doesn't beat JJ? If you can explain how Player A should respond to a re-raise on the turn and a bet on the river, you will no doubt give me insight into a higher lever of play than I am currently capable of. Thanks again.
Kevin
I play 15-30 and 20-40 HE. Up about $10. an hour after 450 hrs. of play. I was making more than $20. but I've been on a losing streak for the past 100 hrs. Two problems:
1) I'm on the button with 55. Two limpers and the cut-off seat makes it two bets. Should I call?
2) I'm in middle position with A4s. Three limpers. What should I do? What if I'm in late position UTG raises (lose player), three callers. What should I do?
These two types of hands really confuse me. I always see the flop for one bet with three limpers. I just don't know when it is correct to stay for two bets. Can someone give me some help and the reasons why? Thanks.
Abdul Jalib and Izmet Fekali both have great stuff on preflop strategies. I would suggest you try that. There are links for that here on this forum. The S&M stuff is ok too on the preflop but it is not as lively or as specific, but is a must read too. Quickly, without elaboration, those hands you described 55 and acesuited cannot sustain raises. There are exceptions to this however but this would take a treatise of which I am incapable of producing.
1) I'm on the button with 55. Two limpers and the cut-off seat makes it two bets. Should I call?
If you think one or both blinds will call, yes call the raise, else fold. You would like to have 4-5 players with a small pair. The raise is likely a legitimate hand due to the previous limpers.
2) I'm in middle position with A4s. Three limpers. What should I do? What if I'm in late position UTG raises (lose player), three callers. What should I do?
If you play the hand for a flush draw and don't get
trapped by the ace only situation, call. You also
can call a single raise because there are 4-5 players giving you enough implied odds.
You shouldn't look a too many flops for two bets. I'd muck the suited A's unless I was sure I could get about 6 way action AND the pre-flop raiser wasn't a real good player (or none of the other cold callers were real good players). With the pocket pairs you need about the same, except it doesn't matter how well the raiser or the cold callers play.
If you are contemplating calling raises with these type of hands you are playing too loose and this may explain why you are on a prolonged losing streak. Why get involved with pocket Fives in this type of situation. You really only want to play this hand for a single bet in a large family pot. You have no idea what the blinds will do including a reraise. I would not call a raise with A4s unless I felt like the whole table would play the hand or pretty close to that. The likelyhood of making a wheel or flush is pretty slim and getting trapped with a pair of Aces can be quite detrimental to your bankroll.
Bruce
Thanks guys. You are probably right Bruce. Maybe I'm on the "subtle tilt" that John Feeney talks about in his book.
It's really tough emotionally to pass with hands like that even though you know its wrong. I have problems with it myself. You see the clueless idiot call 4 raises with a piece of garbage and he wins a huge pot and cashes out 5 racks and your thinking becomes distorted. John Feeney has a great section about tilt in his book. It's a must for any serious player.
Bruce
55 dilemma:
Let's say there are 2 limpers, then a raise, you call (not fearing a reraise and suspecting that at least one of the blinds will call), small blind folds, big blind calls, limpers call. That makes a total of 11 small bets. So far the ratio is 5.5:1. If a 5 comes on the flop, you'll need to collect another 10 small bets (other than your own) for the pre-flop call to have been justified (this should cover those times it doesn't hold up). 10 small bets is an average of two calls per street.
A4suited dilemma:
You will catch a flush about 6.5% of the time, two-pair 2.2% of the time; add favorable flops like 44x, AAA, 235, AA4, and all told, A4suited is a hand with about the same expectation of improving (sufficiently enough to win most of the time) as the 55. Caveat: the foregoing holds true as long as you can easily jettison this hand when an ace flops (and no 4) and a bet follows hard upon.
Personaly i never call a raise with a pocket pair under 88, preflop , however i may reraise if i think it might get it heads up and the raiser is a weak player. This does not count of course if i am in the blinds, then i call with any pocket pair for 1 raise.
If you are on the button and UTG raises and you have pocket 6's and the whole table has called so far are you going to pass?
Bruce
With 7 or 8 callers i would probally call down to 55.
I just do not like calling with 22,33,or 44. With 55 i at least have a critical pair needed to make a small str8.
But that is just me.
I don't like to play eigther of these hands in a raised pot. I just don't do it.
Hello All,
I have a few situations here I am looking for feedback on. I will confine the situation to which I am referring to a typical 10-20 game. The typical 10-20 game I am referring to is definitley loose and depending on the players in the game, it may or may not be agressive. Generally speaking though, there are usually at least 5 players or more seeing every flop, and pre-flop the pot is raised say approixmately 50% of the time. From my experience, many times players are raising pre-flop with 10J, KQ, small pocket pair, A10, AJ, as well as legitiate raising hands. As I said, the game is definitely loose and there are almost always 3 or more eggs/fish in the game. The questions I have are as follows:
1. Should a player be limping in with Ax suited from any position.
2. Should a player be calling raises cold with Ax suited. Iabsolutely refuse to cold call a raise with this hand but it seems to be a pretty common play in the games I am in and many times players will 3 bet with it.
My play has always been that I only play Ax suited from late postion and I never cold call a raise with it - but I will defend the blinds with it if I feel the player raising may be on a steal or if there are 3 or more players in the hand besides myself.
I am beginning to question if maybe I should start to play this hand from earlier position. I still think cold calling a raise with it is pretty much suicidal, but I also can see some value in playing it from almost anywhere as so many players play any 2 suited cards and I would definitely get paid handsomely when it hits. Again, I will not cold call a raise with it but am wondering if I am giving up too much by mucking it from early and middle position as there always seems to be enough players in the hand to justify playing it. I am definitely the type of player who is able to lay down my bad A if an A hits the flop so I am not really worried about getting trapped if the A hits.
So far, I have not changed the way I play and am really only playing it in an unraised pot from late position or when I am in a blind. Personally I have never really thought that the hand had too much value except in late position in an unraised pot. I am just wondering what everyone elses thinks regarding this.
All thoughts and comments are appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Michael D (soccer/sucker Mike)
I don't think you need to change things much at all. With Axs I will often call a raise in the back if it will be 6 or 7 way action. In a very passive game I will sometimes limp in early position if I do not fear a raise and I will have a family pot. In a tight game muck the hand as quickly as possible.
Bruce
Mike:
I think that in order to play AXs from an early position, the game should not only be loose but passive. The game you describe makes it close since I consider 5-way action as loose and only 50% pre-flop raising to be on the passive side. However, I would PREFER even less pre-flop raising to play AXs from early position. I think the key to playing this hand profitably is to be able to bail for even a single bet if an ace flops. Very few players can/will do this however.
Calling a raise with AXs? I've seen some very good players call 2 cold with this hand in multi-way pots (always with position). Sometimes you will find yourself with top pair in a big pot with position. Other times your top pair will not stand a chance. I think it's imperative to play VERY well after the flop. I also think most players overestimate their ability in this area. That's my take anyway.
Kevin
Bruce and Kevin,
Thanks for the responses. I really just wanted confirmation that I was not giving up too much by not playing this hand except in an unraised pot with position and multiway action. Your responses confirmed my beliefs regarding this hand.
Michael D (soccer/sucker Mike)
I hate Axs. I will only play A4s and A5s for no raise. On very rare occaisons i will play Axs in late pos. for a family pot with no raise.
Hi Mike I agree with how your playing this hand. Remember your only going to flop a flush draw 1 out of 9 times and your only going to make the flush approximately 5% of the time. Calling raises with implied odds hands in general is not the way to win money in hold'em. There are exceptions depending on who the players are that are raising but your not going to be making much money calling raises with this hand in early position. I think sometimes we see players winning with a hand like this and start to think were missing out. However we don't see how many times they muck the hand and lose money. Keep playing it in passive games and stay away from calling raises and i think you'll continue to be way ahead. Continued Success Larry
A dangerous header on this forum but I have pretty thick skin. A hand came up tonite in a 15-30 game that I would appreciate some responses.
The game was medium-passive. I am viewed as a tight player. I am beating the game pretty good and have showed nothing but premium hands. Now let me say up front that I'm not a big believer in advertising, but action is starting to dry up.
I pick up 8-9s in mid position. 2 players limp to me and I call.Ideally I would prefer to play it with better position (if at all). 3 more call, SB calls and BB raises. BB loose and passive. Tentatively put him on big pair, possibly AKs. I call as does everyone to the SB who re-raises. SB very loose, very poor player. BB caps and I know it's AA or KK. So much for getting in cheap. I think for a bit and call, as does averyone. 7 handed, $420 in pot.
Flop Ac 9d 5d. SB checks, BB bets I call with my gutshot all but one call to SB who raises. BB calls as does everyone else. I actually like the SB raise as it tells me that the BB doesn't have AA and SB would raise with any A. 6 handed $600 in pot.
Turn 3d. SB bets, BB calls. Looking behind me No one looks happy with the diamonds. Neverless with the pot offering me 17-1 (if I'm alive) I fold.
Nothing miraculous on the river. I would have missed (a diamond fell). SB won with Ad-6s. BB had QQ. No one had the flush til the river so my read on the turn was right.
I'm interested where people think I erred in this hand. Let's not argue about the initial call. Who would have folded:
A) On the first raise pre-flop B) On the re-raise and cap pre-flop C) On the flop D) On the turn E) After the river.
Thanks for any input
Winger
You have 89s.
Flop is A 9 5.
There is no gutshot, only backdoor. I'll assume that's what you meant.
As for advertising, here's something I once read on the back of a sugar packet.
He who has something to sell
And goes and whispers in a well
Is not as apt to get the dollars
As he who climbs a tree and hollers.
So, if you want to advertise, RAISE with yout 89s. Pray for a flop of 889, 67T or the like. Get to the river and show down a hand no one thought you had.
If I had been UTG, and the intent had been to advertise I would have raised. But 2 had already called and the intent was simply to show a hand that most would not have expected me to play.
Thanks for the response Winger
Ooops, that's the problem with entering a post after a long night. I had 7-8, not 8-9. Sorry
Winger
Given the limits of discussion that you request, I would have played the hand exactly as you did -- folding on the turn. The size of the pot (plus your implied odds) versus the probability of hitting your gutshot dictate that you should stay in the hand up to this point as you are drawing to the nuts. With the third diamond on the turn and five opponents you are likely facing a flush and should fold.
I vote for option B.
A full $10-20 game. I raise UTG with QQ. The player to my immediate left, who plays a little loose when calling raises, cold calls. He seems to play fairly straightforward after the flop. All fold to the big blind who calls. 6.5 sb in the pot.
Flop comes KKJ with 2 spades. The BB leads. I elect to raise thinking that the BB wouldn't normally lead out with a K. The other player calls, and the BB folds.
Turn comes an offsuit 3. I bet and he calls.
River comes the A of spades (note - neither of my queens are spades). I bet, he raises, and I muck my hand.
Comments / criticisms welcome.
I think you played the hand fine until the turn. But on the river a check would have been correct since there aren´t too many hands you could beat the other player calls with. Check and call or even check and fold would have been better plays IMO (depending on what you knew about the other player)
Regards
M.A.
I like betting out on the river a lot. However, if you feel you must fold to a raise, a check-call is much better. You were very probably beat, I do agree on that, but I guess you suspected that when the ace hit. What was the purpose of your river bet?
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Your play up to the river was good. I don't like the river bet because a worse hand will not call and a better hand may raise. I think you should check and, depending upon the player, either call or fold a river bet. Against most players I would fold but there are certain goofy ones who must be called.
Izmet Fekali, whose opinion I respect, questioned the river bet, but not the turn bet. Jim Brier, whose opinion I also respect, liked the turn bet. But I don't understand it. I get very suspicious when I raise into a board of two kings and someone cold calls my bet behind me.
I would have checked my queens at this point. I think opponent, if he had a jack or a king, would have then bet the turn, where I would have called. On the river, I would have check folded when the Ace came; if an Ace did not come, I would have check called.
Why bet the turn?
No free cards to draws. How you react to a turn raise depends on the opponent. Against unknowns it's calling down time.
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
Andy, I understand your concern about being cold-called by the player behind you but when the pot gets big, these guys will call with any decent Jack like Ace-Jack or Queen-Jack and maybe even Jack-Ten suited. After raising on the flop when you suddenly show weakness by checking the turn you are inviting your lone opponent to step in and try to take the pot away from you. If you plan on calling his turn bet then you are better off betting yourself. You need to avoid putting yourself in a check-calling mode in these situations.
Thanks for the responses guys.
IMO, the turn bet is sound. As Jim and Izmet said, there are too many ways that you are beating your opponent here and don't want to give out free cards to a J or draw (2 spades). I think against this opponent (who seemed to play straightforward post flop), I would fold to a turn raise here which would save me a bet on the river in the likely scenario that I was beat.
As for the river bet (against this opponent who was very straightforward), if I get raised, I know with 99% certainty that I am beat and I can muck. There's a slight chance I would get called by a Jack, and if I am going to call the river when the Ace comes (which is debatable, I admit), I think it is better to bet here to make the money when the opponent has the Jack. The opponent would bet in that spot with any hand that beats me.
Maybe folding the river is the better play against this guy, but if I plan on calling, I think betting is better.
Comments?
Puggy
I recently sat down in an easy, 5 handed 15-30 game and found myself in total control, really playing in a zone. After 2 hours, I was plus about 1600. As the game filled up, the weaker players left and the game got touched with a good player and a very weak player both on fire. Six hours later I was minus 700. Obviously I did not adjust properly and this is the worst swing I have ever experienced. My question to the Forum is, Are stop losses a good idea? For instance, When I began to drain my checks, should I have set a limit, say +1000 and quit at that point or continue to play, trying to regain control?
In shorthanded games like this you will frequently swing a lot more money than in a full game. This is because you are putting up more blinds each hour, playing more hands each hour, betting more each hour, and raising more each hour. When you get up 100 small bets or more in a game and the line-up starts to strengthen I would consider leaving if I start running bad. This increased volatility is why I avoid shorthanded games like the plague.
Jim made some very good points. Theoretically if the game is still good you should stay and play. Obviously the chip drain was affecting your play so leave. John Feeney wrote an essay that can be found in the essay's section that addresses this is issue. It is very good and well worth reading.
Changing gears from proper play in shorthanded (loose agressive) to proper play in full games (tight agressive) is sometimes difficult to do on the fly. It's not so much that you have to stop and leave, but you should think about taking a break for about 15 minutes. Walk around, regroup, focus on the new situation and play your A game. I kind of like to think of Kevin Costner in "For the love of the Game" when he says to himself "clear the mechanism". If the game is still relatively soft, keep playing. If a few tough guys have joined, pocket a big win and go home feeling good, commending yourself on your good judgement to leave when the game became too tough. No shame in that, ever.
When you get ahead like this you should mentally lock up 80% ($1280) of your winnings and continue to play on the remaining 20% ($320) Once you lose that you walk with $1280 profit.
If you continue to win keep on playing and keep locking up 80% - this way you have the best of both worlds. It works for me!
There are two schools of thought and both of them have supporters.
1. Take the profit. Determine before hand what amount of money is an acceptable profit. In 20-40, I have a friend who if he wins $1000 will lockup $750 no matter what happens or what the game conditions are. If he loses $1000, he is done for the day.
He feels there is no such thing as a good game if he is losing.
2. Play as long as the game is good. Results don't matter in the short term, instead try to play as long as possible against players you can beat. I think we should all strive to this goal versus the first goal. However, if losing a big profit is a problem for you, it might be best to do the first method.
I like a stop-loss system even if the nature of the game doesn't change. I find it very difficult psychologically to take giving back a big win. I feel worse when I was up a big amount and leave the game even, even worse than when I lose but have been stuck all night. This is especially important when the game gets tougher and you know this, as it was in your case.
Sklansky says that the amount you are losing or winning should be irrelevant, that when the game is good and you are therefore a favorite to win, keep playing, and when the game is bad, quit. "Never quit a good game as a small winner just to insure a winning session." But I find that the objective truth of the principal he is invoking makes perfect sense only if we are all machines, capable of absorbing losses without emotion. Since we are not, the peace of mind that comes with a stop-loss system is, to me at least, very important.
If i ever get up 2 to 3 times my buy in i am willing to give my origanal buy in back, then i walk with the profit. It hurts me to be way up then walk away even or down a little.
It really surprises me to read the responses to this post. I thought these swings for the day aren't supposed to effect us that much, its one big poker games etc.
I used to get annoyed when I blew back a good win, but when I looked at the games where this happened I thought ,"well there was no way I was going to leave *this* game. " So I couldn't be mad at myslef for playing, but maybe for some bad plays...
I maybe pschologically a stop-loss isn't such a bad idea especially if you had been running bad before but other than pschololgical reasons if the games is good, you shouldn't set a stop loss.
Most players when they are losing are not playing as well as they are capable of. Unfortunately most winnning players are not capable of accepting this and often times they will continue to play longer and just lose more.
Bruce
Despite all the published dogma that a winning player should not have a stop-loss, the reality is that most players would be better off using one. Better than losing though, when the game changed, you fell out of your zone, and the weak players all left, you should've found that the best time to quit. A stop-loss has more to do with the situation than the dollar amount.
Often the game changes and gets a lot harder. I might have packed up at the $1200 mark.
If you lost because you played bad then you made a mistake. If you still played well but the game was too tough you made a mistake. But if the game was good and the cards turned against you, that's life.
I play badly more frequently than I would like, but recently I was playing well in a good game and getting my ass kicked. I didn't steam or go on tilt, however, because I saw what hands were sucking out on me and figured it was only a matter of time. I was right and finished an $1800 winner in a 5-hour session(Paradise).
John,
Short of getting up when the cards started turning, I don't know what adjustments you could have made. You played selectively and showed patience and discipline. Nothing you can do when somebody gets runner-runner to beat you.
You were in a tough predictament. Up all that money at 10AM on a Saturday morning with no place to go.
Russ
I am in Seat #3 with the button in a ten-handed $30-$60 game at the Bellagio on Saturday night with a good player on my immediate right. I have the JsJh. Everyone folds to the good player who opens with a raise to $60. I re-raise to $90. The small blind folds. The big blind calls. The good player makes it $120. I just call as well as the big blind. There is $380 in the pot and three players.
The flop is: 9s8h2s
The big blind comes out betting $30. The good player raises to $60. I just call as well as the big blind. There is $560 in the pot.
The turn is: 2h
The big blind comes out betting $60. The good player raises to $120. I fold. The big blind calls. There is $800 in the pot and two players.
The river is: 3s
The big blind now checks. The good player bets $60. The big blind folds.
Comments welcome.
I think you made a very good fold. I can't see the good player with anything but AxAs or AsKs for his betting. The big blind must also have an overpair to the board unless he's playing AhKh, or maybe Ah9h.
I think the BB might have taken a chance with 98s from 2 late position raisers then had to call the 3rd bet from cutoff. He then thought he was in heaven when the flop came. When the turn pairs the board he has to put at least one of you on an overpair. I don't know what he could bet out successfuly. His turn bet spells your demise and you made a good fold. If he checked the turn I think I would check call the cutoff's bet hoping for no flush card on the river. I think cutoff had AA-JJ or AKs (I hope it wasn't TT or AKh)
I don't like the way you played your hand. The player on your right will play TT, JJ, AQs, and, AKs the same way. Granted, he could also have QQ thru AA. I don't like your cold call on the flop of a raise. I would have reraised on the flop and played accordingly and hopefully would have seized the initiative. You put yourself in a position on the turn where you become very vulnerable having to call two big bets even though you may have the best hand. From your opponents eyes on your right when you call a raise on the flop without reraising it looks like you have AK or AQ and he is playing accordingly.
Bruce
Bruce:
I'm inclined to believe that if his opponents are astute, Jim's cold call on the flop should be scary enough. In other words, he accomplishes the same thing with a cold call as he would for $90 and saves a sb at the same time. It's unlikely Jim calls 2 cold on the flop with AK or AQ unless both his cards (or at least the ace?) is a spade. I think Jim told both opponents he has an overpair. The good player told Jim he beats it. Next hand.
I doubt if the player on the right would have made it $120 pre flop with TT, JJ or AQ. He was re raised and the BB cold called.
J,
I would have probably reraised the flop especially since he was a good player. On the turn I most likely would have reraised the turn but not really liking it. I'll check the river.
Against a bad player, I would probably folded on the turn.
Cold calling on the flop got you in trouble and made it tough to play.
hope I'm never drawing dead,
albert
Pre-flop I play it the same. When the good player re-raises you it screams big pair. A description of the BB would have helped, but after the flop there are only 2 hands you can beat: AKs and 10-10. Given that the BB may re-pop it I dump right here.
Winger
The big blind either played poorly or was in cahoots with the GP. If he held JT or 67, why did he bet his draw into someone who had reraised preflop? If he held 98, why didn't he reraise on the flop? If he held A9 or A8, betting out on the flop was O.K., but then why would he lead again on the turn once the GP had raised his flop bet?
I think the GP held AA or KK. His initial pre-flop raise would have been disguised as a steal attempt. Would he have raised the big blind's bet on the flop if he held AKs? Only if he thought he could get you to immediately fold and then be able to manhandle the big blind in case the flush didn't arrive. When you called the flop raise, that should have indicated you were either on the flush draw or held an overpair. His raise on the turn said, "if you're on the flush draw, it'll cost you 2 big bets; if you have an overpair, mine is bigger." So I think your fold was correct.
Maybe your best move would have been to have folded once the GP raised on the flop. I'd like to hear your reasons for coldcalling.
Well, I think you make a good point about folding on the flop when it is bet and raised to me. It is costing me $60 plus the possibility of further raising to play what could be 2 outs. The odds are not there for calling.
You played it like a little girl! - Four bet them preflop, take control of the hand.
3 bet them on the flop - Make them react to you - you are reacting to them. You're also applying all your pressure on the two cheap streets.
Now if they bet into you again on the turn after all the heat you have laid down then this is the time to decide if they really have a hand or they are making a play on you.
Bob I did 3 bet my hand pre-flop and the good player made it 4 bets. Are you saying I should make $150 which is a cap on pocket Jacks? There is also a third player in the hand.
I think it is an incorrect assumption to assume the good player has AA or KK just because he 4 bets it BTF. With only 2 other opponents the good player can have a much wider spectrum of hands and he will 4 bet it to retake the initiative on the flop, vary his play, and confuse his opponents among other reasons. I really do think this is somewhat of a myth in limit hold-em. Perhaps the game is played differently in California than Vegas, but I often see players and I am talking about good ones 4 betting with hands they are not supposed to have in similar situations.
Bruce
Bruce:
You wrote: ”Perhaps the game is played differently in California than Vegas, but I often see players and I am talking about good ones 4 betting with hands they are not supposed to have in similar situations.”
Although I tend to agree with you concerning this hand, in Jim’s defense I do think the four-bet generally indicates a stronger hand in Las Vegas than it does in California. The mere fact that there is a four-raise limit in Las Vegas versus a three-raise limit in California creates MORE raising with weaker hands in California. The fact is that here (in California) you can three bet it knowing you will only have to face one more raise or four bet knowing you will close the betting generates more raising.
Mason was the first one to write about this in one of his Poker Essay books but I think we have all experienced the phenomenon.
Regards,
Rick
True, there's no question about that. But I still think when it's three handed that is not going to make as big a difference as you think it may.
Bruce
Bruce,
Playing solid, tough and winning poker requires making good decisions constantly. Further, taking the data provided and thinking through the other player's thoughts are what brings our games up one, two to three levels.
Cooke makes it four bets *in front* of the reraiser with a third person in the hand. The very, very, very worst hand he has is AKs and that is not at all likely.
After the flop, 9,8,2 two spades, Cooke raises the BB who opens. What do you think he has? Pocket 7s? Come on. Pocket tens or Slick are the only miracle holdings are the only slim possibilities. If you can imagine 10s, which I cannot, then you have to allow for 9s and 8s which gives him a set. Remember, Roy makes moves but always has his rationale, just like how he works towards justifying his decisions in his column.
Then, he raises the BB on the turn when deuces pair the board. The small pair on the board was a great card making his overpair solid against a potential two pair. Now think, how can he have pocket tens or Slick with this raise? Jim, "tight and tough player" reraised his raise preflop and called his flop raise cold. Roy may be guilty of some arrogance at the table but do not confuse him with being a maniac.
Finally, with a rag on the river and $800. in the pot, the BB checks and Cooke bets. No bluff, no Slick no Tens. I am serious when I say I would have easily been willing to bet anyone $1,000., at the moment, after the flop raise by Roy that Jim's "JJ" were toast.
I am not saying if this were in LA, another game or players. But knowing these players, in Vegas and situation, its a lock bet. Bob
Bob,
I was attempting to make two major points. My first point is just because Roy make's it 4 bets BTF concluding that he holds AA, KK, or big slick is erroneous. Roy will mix up his play and 4 bet it with other hands for a variety of reasons. Please see my thread below on this same post. Secondly, Jim played his hand too passively. He should have raised again either BTF or three bet it on the flop. His cold call on the flop of two bets put him in a very precarious situation on 4th street. Whether Roy had a better hand or not I don't know, but the focus of my post was on the optimal play of Jim's hand.
Bruce
Bruce,
Fair enough. I like your posts and what you say. I think here we may have played it differently but I understand your point of view.
Bob
Jim,
[Note: As I paste what follows in I notice bruce has replied. I wrote this without reading his reply yet.]
I know you asked Bob but here is my two cents. I also like the cap before the flop. Since you have to put in four bets anyway (since “good player” Roy Cooke made it four bets), why not cap it at five bets? It only costs one more bet (yet may save you money later), it adds needed deception to your game, Roy should now fear you, and if he doesn’t (by continuing to lead into or reraise you post flop), then he probably really does have the overpair and you can play accordingly.
Of course capping before the flop may change all that follows but I also like the reraise on the flop. Perhaps based on previous experience playing with you, Roy will do everything he can to blow you off the pot with nothing but overcards or even TT. Since his original raise was from the cutoff seat, the percentages indicate a lesser hand rather than the big overpair.
Regards,
Rick
Very unusual for the big blind to come out betting into two players, one who re-raised pre-flop, and another who made it 4 bets. Then, after not re-rasing on the flop, he comes out betting on the turn when the board pairs! At this point, you should eliminate 9-8 from the hands you would put him on, as he surely must know one or both of his opponents has an overpair and now has him beat.
When the good player now raises, you must indeed fold. It is of course possible that the good player had pocket tens and you would have won, but more likely you are beat by him, and you could not know you were not beat by the big blind when he bet out on the turn.
I played a similar hand recently at the same stakes. A famous player (FP) limped under the gun and I raised with pocket kings. BB (a good player), GP and I took the flop 3-handed: Q-T-7 rainbow. Both opponents checked, I bet, BB raised, FP cold called, I re-raised, BB capped (4-bet limit) and FP cold called again. Turn was a 6 of the 4th suit. BB bet, FP called and I called (a mistake?). River was a J, making board Q-T-7-6-J. BB bet out again and FP raised; I souped. BB called and FP won with a straight (he had 9-8s) to GP's set of Ts.
Overpairs can be a bitch when they keep betting and raising into you. Even though it's possible you still have both of them, it's unlikely. With you jacks, it's tought to stand the heat because now if an overcard comes on the river, you're really in no man's land.
I would have 3-bet the flop (as I did on my hand) and lost more than you did, especially if they let me lead on the turn.
I think it is reasonable to assume that when a good player tells you twice by betting or raising into you that he has you beat, you will save money by laying down the hand for the few times that he is on a move and not a hand.
Regards, Dugie
(n/t)
Now let's look at this differently. Roy is an expert player. He knows that Jim knows this. Roy also knows that Jim plays solidly and is also capable of laying down a hand. I am speculating on this, but there also may be an intimidation factor playing against Roy and Roy will certainly use this to his advantage. Given this scenario why can Roy only have KK or AA to 4 bet the flop. Roy can have a much wider spectrum of hands and therefore I think it is incorrect for Jim to play the hand so passively on the flop. Just my 2cents.
Bruce
Generally, I think you played the hand well. You were in a tough spot on the turn and can't really be questioned for mucking to a bet and a raise.
Just a side comment though: I believe that Roy does not likely have AA or KK. I say this because once the board pairs on the turn with the deuce, Roy has less of a need to protect his KIngs or Aces. Thus, I suspect his hand is either QQ or TT. Of course, he could also have 99 or 88 i.e. he may raise with a full house on the turn if he thinks you are capable of coldcalling with an overpair or a flush draw.
Jim coldcalled Roy Cooke's raise on the flop. That would suggest he was on the flush hunt. With this in mind, a raise with AA or KK on the turn was automatic. And with the pot that large, even if Roy Cooke knew Jim held an underpair with just the two outs, the raise was still called for.
Yes. Your points are good ones. You are quite correct when you say that a raise by Roy here does not rule out AA or KK because if he puts Jim on a flush draw, he is going make him pay.
Having said that, the fact that Roy raised the turn still makes it more likely that he has QQ or TT as opposed to KK or AA. When it is Roy's turn to act on the turn, the pot has 20 small bets. If he has AA and puts Jim on QQ/JJ, Roy's call would offer Jim 22 small bets for a 2 small bets investment. Of course, Jim would only have a 22:1 shot and therefore would be taking much the worst of it by calling. In fact, by offering Jim a "cheap" call on the turn, Roy could induce Jim into now raising on the turn with his QQ/JJ as Jim would then be putting Roy on Overcards. If the blind then just calls Jim's raise, Roy could well have an opportunity to reraise here with AA.
In practice, you are probably right: I would raise with AA if I were Roy even if I thought Jim only had JJ/QQ. Roy also has to contend with the big blind. If he has an overpair to the board, Roy would want to raise to get one of them out. A lack of a raise would result in 4 bad cards for Roy on the river as opposed to just 2 if he were to raise.
Bottom line: tough spot for Jim on the turn. I think a fold is correct.
I've read his column. He plays like a moron sometimes too. Needless to say I'm not overly-impressed with his game. In any event, giving any player too much respect is almost as bad as not giving them enough.
Clearly you didn't believe he had the overpair pre-flop. What could he have had that would induce you to fold on the turn, when all of the pre-flop action didn't? Full-house nines or quad deuces? I hardly think so.
But it was the big blind who overplayed his draw, likely costing you the pot. Still, I would've 3-bet it on the turn and called (or bet) the river if he kept coming.
After reading the responses, I think I should have capped the betting pre-flop even though it goes against the grain to put in 5 bets to take a flop with pocket Jacks. Because of the special situation here the extra bet can buy me a lot of leverage later on. Roy may not have raised the flop bet if I capped pre-flop. He may not have raised the turn bet if I had re-raised on the flop with my over pair which might have given me a cheap showdown instead of being bet out of the hand. The other problem with not capping pre-flop is that I have limited my hand since with AA and probably KK Roy knows I would definitely cap.
Thanks for all the responses. I will be needing a lot of help in beating this $30-$60 game.
"The other problem with not capping pre-flop is that I have limited my hand since with AA and probably KK Roy knows I would definitely cap."
Well, this shouldn't be a problem. Surely, you vary your play enough such that Roy can't rule out AA or KK for you just because you did not cap preflop.
In fact, if you had AA, I would suggest that the better preflop play is to not cap it. I mean, the hand did not have multiway action. You only had 2 opponents. You could gain a lot on later streets by not capping with AA preflop. After all, you are only giving up 2 small bets by not capping. Surely, that can be recouped on the turn.
My guess is that it was a good fold on the turn. I might have three bet the flop, then mucked on the turn if Roy four bet the flop, but I don't know. If you and Roy have been playing quite a bit together, though, then there may be cause to rethink this hand. I don't know how you play, but if Roy has you pegged as the 'type of guy who will lay down an overpair', then it's possible he ran over you here.
Jim,
I'm curious about something. There seems to be as many different reasons to play a particular limit as there are players. Rounder has stated many times that he looks for the softest game in the house, no matter the stakes. Others prefer to play with people they have a read on because they feel this gives them an edge. Of course, as good a read as you have on them they might have on you.
I believe before you moved to LV you mentioned that 30-60 at Bellagio is the toughest game in the country to beat. From your last line of your post here you haven't done that yet, at least not consistently, why not simply pick a softer game? Do you play for the challenge and the competition? Are you working your way up to higher limits? I'm just wondering because from what I read here most people are in it for the money.
If you feel these questions are intrusive I will undersdtand if you don't answer.
I don't mind answering. I enjoy the competition and when I watch the other players in the $30-$60 game I feel I have an edge in this game if I can get into the long run with it. I enjoy playing correctly and getting a good result. As long as I win money at poker, I am not overly concerned about my hourly rate since I do not live on poker winnings. In addition, I enjoy learning by watching top players and experts like Roy Cooke, Mason Malmuth, and others in live play.
'
The background:
This is an online game which plays normally before the flop (decent amount of preflop raising, maybe 3 players on average seeing each flop). However, the game is playing very tight postflop. A bet on the flop often wins the pot, and we don't see a showdown very often.
I pick up the usual holding, 94 off in the BB. 3 middle to late position limpers and the SB calls. The flop comes 3 3 4 rainbow.
The SB (a pretty good player) leads. I don't think the SB would lead here with a 3 because there is a very good chance that he will get no callers and win the absolute minimum on his hand. I therefore put him on a 4 or a bigger pocket pair.
Is this pot too small to go after or is it worth a fight?
Of course, there's many more combinations of hands for the SB with 4x than a pocket pair, but about half the time he has a 4, his kicker will be bigger than mine. So, what's the play?
Thanks, Puggy
Puggy,
If the SB checked to me I would have led. But the SB grabbed the initiative. Probable hands include:
1) A four, in which case you would often be out kicked
2) A straight draw, for which you may not even be a favorite over
3) An overpair, in which case you are have maybe five outs
4) A three, if someone like me was in the SB since I like to bet trips to cover my steals. Against a three you are dead meat.
The SB got there first with his bet and you don't have much to take it back from him. Wait for better opportunities to take small pots out of the blinds.
Regards,
Rick
Raise or fold. It really all depends upon what you think of the SB. Folding is not a bad option. You have very little invested with a marginal holding.
Bruce
10/20 thru 40/80:
QQ and JJ:
These are two hands that I think that you should play very aggressive BTF especially if you're in late position. In the Jim thread below it shows why you should be aggressive BTF. If you play these hands passively you're in a guessing game especially against a good player who knows that you will lay down a big hand. I play in California and will Capp the pot almost 90% of the time. It let's you play your hand much better after the flop. In Las Vegas where there are four raises I can't give an answer because my play there has been limited. Do you think that this is too aggressive for the Cal games?
You have more capped pots in California than Vegas for two main reasons. First in Vegas there are four raises allowed which inhibits the action and second the California games play looser. I thinking capping with marginal hands like JJ or QQ becomes a function of how many players will enter the pot. If there will be a large multiway pot I would not cap it but on the otherhand if the pot is three way I would be much more inclined to deviate from ideal strategy and cap with marginal hands such as smaller big pocket pairs and big suited connectors. I find in California in a multiway pot that capping really gains very little psychologically. Often the capper is someone who has initially just limped in and now caps it for dubious reasons.
Bruce
I don't put JJ in the same class as QQ - I consider JJ to be a med. pair and play it more like 99 than KK.
Capping loose aggressive multi way pots with hands like this is suicide. Heads up of course everything changes.
I'm in the Big blind with A6o and there are 6 preflop limers. The flop comes 6 6 K
I bet out into the field and get two callers. Should I have gone for a check raise? I figured I might get raised and could reraise, there were a lot of people in the hand after all.
turn: K
Now I Figured that with 2 callers out a field of 6 someone had a king. I check, 2nd player checks, last player bets out and I fold.
river is a 2.
It goes check check between the remaining players and Kings and 6's with an 8 kicker brings in the pot. Was I crazy for folding my full house? Should I have bet out on the turn? I thought surely someone had a better full house.
Thanks, Rob
Sometimes you just have to call them down.
Betting out on the flop I think is the best play here. You don't mention the limit you're playing but if it's 3-6 or 5-10 no one will put you on a 6 because they would all slowplay this kind of hand.
Your mistake came on the turn. You should bet out and see where you are. Going for a checkraise is kind of risky on the turn because you have no expectation you're going to see a bet from either opponent. As it happens you probably will win the pot right there. If you run into a king they will raise. At this point I would check and call it down unless the other two players got into a war.
/
If it makes you feel any better I did almost the exact same thing as you about a week ago. I had 9-3 in the big blind. Flop comes 3,3,Q. I check thinking I will check-raise. It gets checked around. The turn is a Q. The small blind comes out betting. I put him on a Q and fold. He wins with ace high. I don't know if it answers any of your questions but it may make you feel better to know someone did the exact same thing.
You don't say how many people checked the flop.
Since no one bet the flop, I am not sure how you can fold the turn unless you know your opponent real well.
As Mr. Fekali likes to say: Great laydowns do not a winning player make (at least in limit poker).
Generally speaking, at 20-40 or higher, a limper doesn't have a king. But with 6 limpers it's more possible that one does.
Once you bet the flop, however, and were not raised, this could mean that neither opponent has a king. You didn't specify the exact nature of the flop. If there was a flush draw on board, it would be more likely that neither has a king.
On the turn, I would also have checked, but I would have called, given the above, the fact that the bet came from the last player, and the fact that there was only one other player left behind you.
Neither opponent had a card higher than an 8? One player turned over his 8-7 (!?) and the other guy souped? What did they expect to make when you bet into a flop of K-K-6? There must have been a flush draw on board.
I am just guessing that this is not a 30-60 game :-)
Your fold on the turn was wrong - OK to bet out on the flop and then bet it out on the turn for sure - if you get raised then maybe you fold but to fold the full house with no resistance is pretty weak poker.
$10-$20- A solid but not overly aggressive player (EP) limped early, followd by a solid aggressive player (MP) in middle position. I limped in the sb w/44, BB called. 4-way.
The flop was 984r. I bet, BB folds, EP calls, MP raises, I re-raise, EP calls, MP caps the betting. I called, EP called. The turn was an off 6. I check (going for a check/raise), EP checks, MP checks!! The river was a 7. I check, EP bets, MP calls, I fold. EP had 99, MP had 98s. btw- I did not fold for only fear of a set, but because I thought the 2 possibilities of a set AND JTs added up to not boding well for an overcall with my baby set. Was this a terrible fold on my part?
Given the hands held, it's almost inconcievable that no one bets the turn here. Even though it saved me a sure $40 and possibly $60, how terrible was my check/raise attempt? Thanks.
Kevin
On the flop, I think EP should raise your bet with top set but it really doesn't matter since the round got capped anyway as it was supposed to with two flopped sets.
On the turn, I agree that it was bizare no one bet here given all the action on the flop. Nevertheless I don't like the check-raise attempt here. You should simply bet out and figure you will probably get raised which allows you to re-raise on the expensive street. Check-raising may well result in getting less money into the pot even when someone bets than just leading out.
On the river, it was risky for EP to lead out with four parts to an open ended straight on the table. EP is a strange player. The guy never bets his hand until the river when it is now easy for him to be beat. I think your fold was right given that any Ten or Five gives someone a straight and it is bet and called by a third player.
Thanks Jim: As it turns out, EP was also going for a check/raise on the turn. I guess he was so upset that it got checked behind him, he figured he wasn't about to miss another bet on the river!??
Call the river. You will sleep better at night.
"inconceivable", hmmmmm.....
"THAT WORD YOU KEEP USING -- I DON'T THINK IT MEANS WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS."
-- Indigo Montoya
in·con·ceiv·a·ble (nkn-sv-bl) adj.
1). Impossible to comprehend or grasp fully: inconceivable folly; an inconceivable disaster.
2). So unlikely or surprising as to have been thought impossible; unbelievable: an inconceivable victory against all odds.
I was unaware that I KEEP using this word. But the above is EXACTLY what I thought it meant, and what I meant.
Kevin
Not only are you a good poker player but you have an extensive vocabulary. Please don't use such big words for us mere mortals. By the way could you e-mail me and let me know who was that 10-20 player who you were referring to that was the best at that limit. Thanks Larry
Kevin:
Loosen up! I was making a joke, and a reference to the classic film "Princess Bride." I don't know if you have ever used the word before or not. My point is just that you will see people turn over hands sometimes that you can't believe -- so "inconceivable" becomes a somewhat protean concept.
SW
Sorry Scott-
Never saw "Princess Bride". (I probably should get out more). I thought your point was that I should've considered 4th street would've got checked around. I didn't mean to sound tight-assed about it though. Take care.
Kevin
no problem. Though not necessary, that was a nice gesture to apologize -- I respect that.
10/20 game at Mirage. I have QQ in the SB when an agressive player (AP) second to act raises. All fold to me and I call. BB, a srong player calls also. Three of us take the flop of KKQ , two spades. I check looking to check raise. Both check behind me. Turn is 2s making a flush possible. I check again. BB checks. AP bets, I raise, BB calls, AP calls. River is 2h. I check BB bets , AP raises I fold. BB calls. What do you think ?
In this situation they're going to have to show me a better hand. This isn't pot or no-limit holdem where big laydowns can save you thousands of dollars. I am not sure how you concluded your opponent had KK or KQ. Making laydowns like this in the future is going to be damaging to your bankroll.
Bruce
The final board is KKQ22 Bruce. Any King wins it. I might call one bet in this instance, but two bets means 90% of the time someone has a King.
GB
Sorry, but I read your post incorrectly. I did not realize the Deuces paired the board. There's not a whole lot you can do about that. Those are the breaks of the game.
Bruce
"Three of us take the flop of KKQ , two spades. I check looking to check raise. Both check behind me."
Unfortunate, but not a big concern. The chances of them drawing out on you are slim if they don't already have you beat.
"Turn is 2s making a flush possible. I check again. BB checks. AP bets, I raise, BB calls, AP calls."
The flush card is wonderful. I don't put AP on a flush just yet (AK, JJ, or bluff). You take control of the hand with your check raise. BB calls along, hoping to hit his full house.
"River is 2h. I check BB bets , AP raises I fold. BB calls. What do you think ?"
So the final board shows KKQ22. Guess what, they drew out on you! :) I find it hard to believe neither of the other two players have a king. Letting this hand go on the river will save you two big bets the vast majority of the time. If there was only one bet to you, you must call.
GB
Would you have reraised preflop to get it heads up ?
Raising an aggressive player with QQ to get heads up is probably a good idea. It would depend a lot on your read of this player. Even if he does have a quality hand, getting the big blind out will increase your chances of winning. This hand is a good example of that. Even though the cards were not with you this time. :)
GB
I probably would have just bet out from the beginning. A king is going to at least call, and I wouldn't want to give somebody with a king a free shot at hitting their sidecard.
As it turns out, the BB calling your checkraise for two bets cold on the turn, makes for an easy fold on the river, IMHO.
Steve
They split the pot. Both had weak kickers with the K. Glad to know my vision was clear on this one .
bear with my fuzzy thinking for a while. I think you played this fine. except for longshots, no one is going to catch up with you who wouldn't have called your flop bet, so looking to checkraise is not a mistake here.
your turn raise not only got money in the pot when you were ahead (which you want to do!!), but it helped define the hands against you and helped you decide to make a correct fold.
they sucked out on you, but oh well. they had 7 out total against you and hit one of them. no biggie.
There is not much to think here. I would have raised BTF with QQ against a loose player. Other than that, there is nothing else left to do.
Pre-flop: Re-raise with Q-Q. Why let a weak Ace or King in the BB stay in?
On the flop: Bet. Maybe someone has A-J, A-T, A-x of spades, or J-T and will call when they wouldn't have bet. And maybe someone has a King and will raise. It's unlikely they have K-Q since you have Q-Q. And if you check, I wouldn't be looking to check raise. Just call and wait (at least)for the turn to do some damage.
On the turn: Bet. If someone really has made a flush, you're going to get good action.
On the river: You have to check and then fold to the raise. You're certainly beat in at least one spot.
I hate the way you played this hand. Pre-flop you should 3 bet with QQ. You want to make the big blind pay through the nose to take a flop especially if he has an Ace or a King. There are many hands headed by an Ace or a King that the big blind would call one bet with but not two. On the flop you should bet your hand since with only two opponents and a scary board like that no one may bet. But someone on a flush draw or a straight draw will call. On the turn, you should bet when the flush card comes since you might get raised or at least called by someone with a big singleton Spade. At the river you have an easy fold since between the bettor and raiser someone must have a King for a bigger full house.
Jim, why worry about three betting the bb out when the most likely hand for the AP is AK, and he's not leaving ?
Because if the AP has AK, AQ, JJ, or TT you have the better hand and want the AP to pay the maximum price to chase you. You cannot get the AP out regardless. But if the AP has AQ, JJ, or TT and the big blind has a King or the AP has JJ or TT and the big blind has an Ace or a King you want the big blind out of the hand.
Clint,
I would have lost more money than you did with this hand. Depending on the raiser, I would have three bet pre-flop. I would have led the flop, hoping to get raised so I could reraise. I'm really hoping both players have a K because they won't get out. (The odds of one having exactly KQ are fairly small, I think.) Again, depending on the raiser, I might go for the checkraise on the turn, but I would probably lead here, too. I have to fold the river.
John
Typical mid-limit game. Typical, not too loose, player raises UTG. folds to player mid position player on your left who throws away his hand and exposes an Ace.
Should you throw away AK given the exposed card? How about AKs ?
D.
Here is a hand I enjoyed. Early in a not very loose 10-20, opponent seems fairly solid for what I knew.
Folded to my JJ in late middle position and I raise. The button 3-bets blinds folded. I re-raise and the button calls ( the table was egging him on that there was no cap heads up but he just called. )
Flop comes Jxx 2 suited. I bet, raise, reraise, reraise and I call.
Turn: no flush card, I bet, raise, reraise, he calls.
River blank: I bet and a call.
He shows his pocket aces.
Comments?
( Ill post a couple thoughts in a quick follow up )
Although this is a fairly routine slaughter, there are a few intereseting points.
BTF: When button 3 bet I was thinking he might be on a re-steal since my open raise came from fairly late. I therefor made the 4-bet hoping his hand was not that good and also it would be deceptive if his was good.
Flop: It becomes clear he has a big pair amd thinks I do also.
Turn: I slowed up a little on the flop so I could bet out the turn and hope he raises which he does.
The value of the 4-bet BTF is hard to gauge, flopping the set I got a lot of action. Without the set, I think I may get the opponent to fold some overcards if we was just on a weaker resteal and I only have the pair of jacks.
D.
Agreed although Jim's point about the perils of 4 betting with JJ when out of position certainly warrants consideration.
Where ya been lately?...Haven't seen you around at the Inn.
How can one small bet amount to peril? I will not normally make the 4-bet, but given the re-steal possiblitly and the mixing up of play it seems like a nice little trade.
I sent you an email update SKP.
D.
Pre-flop your 4 bet with pocket Jacks is over playing your hand a little since you are out of position and will be in a bad way when over cards flop. On the flop, I would never stop raising with nuts when I am out of position and heads-up. If an Ace, King, or Queen comes on the turn you now become constrained even though you may well have the best hand.
I like the little deception that was used. One more raise and the AA calls and simply calls down to the river expecting to see 3 J's but hoping to see KK.
With the opponent re-raising I wouldn't put him on Q's. Most likely KK since he did stop betting preflop once I (david) represented the big pair as well.
After the flop betting I put him on Aces and this is where I like the deception. Once I stop betting he's led to believe I'm the one with KK.
But the deception is costing you money in the form of extra bets you could collect. He is never folding an over pair so you will collect something on every street. What is really bad about being "deceptive" on the flop is that if an over card comes on the turn you are now inhibited. Suppose a King shows up on the turn? How aggressively can you now play? Similarily at the river. Well, you have the best hand and failed to get in all your licks when you KNEW you had the best hand.
It is true that an overcard may slow you down however that doesn't automatically make the deception -ev. You may still gain enough extra on turns where you are still best to ballance those times you have to slow down.
What about this argument. You save money on the hands where you get drawn out on and make extra money on the majority of times where a blank comes on the turn.
The weather is too good here to apply math to this but it should be done.
( If just a K or Q came, you might not even slow down anyway. )
D.
It really depends upon how many raises your opponent is willing to put in before he realizes he is beat. You do save money when he sucks out but if a blank comes on the turn he may not be as willing to go to war with you on an expensive street as he would have been on the cheap street. You may be correct. It may make very little difference from an EV standpoint.
I think I just call pre flop - I like the way you played the hand after that. I may have been tempted to max out the flop betting hoping he would put me on KK or maybe AJ - but your call with the nuts is what set up the extra bbs on the turn. The river is academic he is making a crying call here.
Note unless there is 4 of a suit the flush does not come in to it unless the other player is horrible he most certainly has an over pair to you.
I haven't read the other comments, but I like what you did here. The temptation is to slow down and get tricky but I think your speed makes it look like you DON'T have a set. If you just call the reraise on the flop, then what? A bet would be even scarier to him now, he might check behind you if you check, and he might even fold if you check raise. I think you played it perfectly and made the max.
I was thinking on-line rules and forgot you could have kept raising on the flop. I still like the way you played it. And I like the cap on the flop -- it could be for value if the guy is on a resteal and it also "disguises" your hand -- he had you locked on to KK.....
One of the strangest hands I ever saw...
$20-$40, three players go to the river. All check to the button who bets. The player to my right calls. The player to his right says, "Wait a minute, time." My right pulls his bet back. The "time" player thinks and finally mucks his hand.
Then, the button says, "I don't have anything" and he turns over his cards face up with no pair. On my right turns his cards over face up with top pair. Button nods his head, turns his cards over and tosses them in the muck. Here, the dealer pauses but then mucks the cards to my right and pushes him the pot. There has never been a call.
After the action is entirely over, someone mentions there was no call so how can the player be awarded the pot? Confusion sets in. What do you all think?
Under these circumstances you should have been awarded the pot since the call was pulled back therefor making his hand dead.
Floor should have been called.
I was not in the pot. While I know for sure the player who was awarded the pot would have called, he must have drawn a blank and forgot he pulled his bet back when he called out of turn.
Technically, I believe the dealer should not have made any move. He should not have mucked player to my rights hand and pushed him the pot. A player should have called the floor.
I have seen this happen a few times when i am dealing low limit, and i ask the person if they are calling or folding before i touch the cards. A classic case of the dealer not following the action.
On Right has not had a chance to act. It's obvious he will call (and already tried to, maybe angling the other possible caller) once he see's he can beat the bluff.
He wins. Putting the money in is a formality once the better has shown his hand.
An action filled 10-20 game. Lots of players seeing flops and putting in many spurious preflop and flop raises.
My hand: Ac6c
My position: Middle
I am the second to limp. After a third player limps, there is a late position raise. 6 way action including both blinds. I am 4th to act on the flop.
Flop: 8d6h2c
I bet. Dude to my left folds. Preflop raiser hits it again. 2 coldcalls. I call. We take the turn 4 handed.
Turn: 8c
I bet. Preflop raiser just calls. Big blind calls.
River: 8h
Final board: 86288
Big Blind checks. I check. Preflop raiser checks and throws up pocket deuces in disgust.
Comments?
If there was a lot of pre-flop raising, I don't know if I would come in with A6s after only one limper. There would seem to be a fair chance your odds will be ruined by a raise or two.
The preflop raiser hit this flop about as hard as he could. At least he has deception going for him, if not common sense. Why he didn't pop the turn as well is beyond me. Was he expecting someone to have 86 or 66? Not very likely. If he doesn't bet, he'll never know.
The river 8 shows there is some justice for those of us who don't raise 22 preflop. 'Nuff said.
GB
The preflop raiser played the hand about as stupidly as possible. Regardless of how he played the hand he is destined to lose. You are not going anywhere with middle pair and nut flush draw on the turn. Consider your good fortunes.
Bruce
I agree with you bet-call on both the flop and turn. I also agree with your check on the end, despite the fact that I am betting more often on the end now due to comments you have made in this forum. There is a good chance that the raiser has an overpair, and he will not fold for one more bet on the end. There was a small chance that he had pocket 6's or 2's that he may well have called with. There is an extremely tiny chance that he has overcards that he will call with on the end. So it is way more likely that he has a better hand that he will call with than a worse hand that he will call with, and there is no way he will lay down a better hand. The big blind either has a straight draw or a monster, so there is no reason to bet into him.
Steve
The turn suggests a good chance of another pair (or bettter) out there. On the river, its impossible to put the raiser or bb collectively on hands you can beat if they call, so checking the river is the only play. I'd make a crying call on the river but I'd expect to split more than I'd win.
Your bet on the turn is also right given the chance of picking it up there. His decision not to raise on the turn with bottom full is a mistake.
Chris,
You (and Steve above) are probably right about the river check but I do think it is close. Most overcards with and ace held by weak loose players would play the hand about the same as the pre flop raiser and call it down. It seems that way in California anyway and those Vancouver games would fit right in down here.
Regards,
Rick
Skp,
I’ll throw in my two cents before reading the other posts.
An action filled 10-20 game. Lots of players seeing flops and putting in many spurious preflop and flop raises. - - My hand: Ac6c - - My position: Middle - - I am the second to limp.
I think the limp is a little too loose here. Even though you appear to be getting multi-way action, you have noted that the pot is often raised. So I would fold unless there were already at least two limpers or you had late position over a single weak limper. I would cold call loose raisers if I thought I would have about five opponents with position.
After a third player limps, there is a late position raise. 6 way action including both blinds. I am 4th to act on the flop.
Note that you have almost what I would want in a raised pot because you got one more limper and both blinds to call. That is an excellent parlay for you and you won’t get it that often.
Flop: 8d6h2c - - I bet. Dude to my left folds. Preflop raiser hits it again. 2 cold calls. I call. We take the turn 4 handed.
I like the bet with a low flop, a pair, and a backdoor flush. With the raise you should tend to put the preflop raiser on a big pair or the best overcards with a possible backdoor flush.
Turn: 8c - - I bet. Preflop raiser just calls. Big blind calls.
Mandatory bet when you lead into the raiser again when the top card pairs even though you have two other opponents. The flush draw compensates for the extra action when what you want is all of them to lay down at this point.
River: 8h - - Final board: 86288 - - Big Blind checks. I check. Preflop raiser checks and throws up pocket deuces in disgust.
Surprise hand by the pre flop raiser. Why didn’t he raise on the turn? Anyway, I’m not sure your check is correct. Most overpairs that beat you will keep you honest but so will a lot more AK, AQ and AJ type hands. Note that no hand will raise you at this point unless the big blind was playing a weak eight and now decides to get tricky. If you think the big blind was capable of checking an eight here, then your check was probably correct.
Regards,
Rick
On the river check, you may well be correct that it is better to bet. It's a near cinch that if the preflop raiser has an overpair, he would bet after I checked. It's also a near cinch that he would not bluff with AK if I check. Thus, I can only gain by betting the river i.e. when he calls with AK and the like. A bet could be disastrous if my opponent were to raise with AK and I then lay down but that is an unlikely scenario.
To me, the most revealing aspect of the hand is just how bad it is to slowplay an underfull on the turn. If my opponent could see my cards on the turn, he would know that I have 4 outs. The pot has $220 after I bet. He would want to raise and hope that I fold! Yet, here he is slowplaying his full house.
Let's take a different hypothetical situation. Suppose the board is AK95 on the turn. My opponent has A9 or something and he knows that I am semibluffing with QJ. The pot has $220. He would probably raise and hope that I not chase my 4 outer. Well, the underfull situation is not much different.
Of course, I say the above assuming he knows what i have got. In practice, he would probably put me on an 8 on the turn and assume that I have 7 outs. That's almost as good as an openended straight draw. He ought to raise...no doubt about it.
I'm on the button with QQ. Don't have the full lay of the land but the game feels loose so far. It's 4 limpers to me and I raise. The blinds fold, 1 limper calls, the next raises, and the next two call!
Would you now reraise again? I decide not to. It's not going to knock more than 1 player out (the first limper) so I figure I am big trouble if an ace or king flops anyway, the reraiser may well have AA, and it adds a touch of deception to my hand.
What do you think?
SW
P.S. I ended up winning a monster -- board was:
Q-8-9-8-7
One guy had J-10 and another had 7-8. Pretty good game. I was a tad surprised when it went bet, raise to me on the river.
I would raise if I knew a Queen was coming on the flop. Otherwise I would play it like you did. In a large pot I would rather wait and see what the flop brings.
Bruce
any advice on how to tell if it's coming?
Scott
If I knew, I would be down in the Caymen Islands enjoying a few beers with a couple lady friends.
I think the pre-flop raise stradegy was explored somewhat in a previous thread concerning pocket J's with three opponents (see Jim Brier post). Your situation is a little more complex since you have multiple opponents. However, having said that, I am a firm believer in making drawing hands pay the max when you have the best of it. I would reraise with the pocket Q's pre-flop not only because of the former but also because of your position and the added deception you may gain. IMO
Nice pot by the way!!!
Regards, Dugie
no cap/ good play
Isn't one supposed to raise and reraise with pocket queens? I thought I read that in a Sklansky book...hmm...okay, have a nice day. Bye bye.
I would re-raise here given your position. If the flop hurts your hand, it may get checked around to you. With 4 callers you're getting nice odds for a strong hand as well.
Winger
10-20 at the Mirage. I'm in the BB with KsQs. Folded to middle position player who raises, everyong calls to me (3 people) i call. Flop comes 10c9s2h. Everyone checks. Turn is a 10h. Checked to button who bets, I fold, preflop raises calls I fold.
My thoughts are that I should automatically bet on the turn. My hand is worth a call (assuming all my outs are good) and a bet may well pick up the pot, and if called i've got outs. Plus i might make a player lay down a hand the has me beat like AK AQ AJ etc... I believe checking and calling is bad b/c i can't be sure all my outs are good. (As it turned out the preflop raises won with AK high.)
how about a checkraise on the turn?
Check raise wouldn't get everyone in this field to fold. I think a bet would be more effective as a semibluff. But against different opponents i agree it could be an effective play.
I'm just thinking that the button would probably have bet top or 2nd (or maybe 3rd or under pocket pair?) on the flop, so when the top pair pairs on the turn and it's checked to him, he's very likely to be taking a shot at the pot. Given the action, the preflop raiser likely had overcards to you, but you probably have a better hand than the button. You check the turn intending to fold, but the raiser does not bet!! The probably piece of cheese does, so now, by raising, you have a chance to shut out the probable better hand than yours and go against the probable worse hand.
Even if the button has a pocket pair or under pair, he would be hard pressed to call your check raise and/or your river bet. The only hand you really fear is a ten, but, given the betting, that's not likely there.
On the river, of course, you bet if you hit your gutshot, bet if you miss, and check call if you hit a Q or K.
Very good points. i agree with all of them but the button was not the type to fold for a check raise. However, it still would have gotten ride of the preflop raiser and if I check raise i can probably win on the end with a bet despite what comes (as long as the button doesn't catch something).
I don't think you need to button to fold for this play to work. Your main target, as I read it, is the preflop raiser. I kind of read the button as having a pretty weak hand. He's probably on a semibluff QJ, etc, and maybe on an out and out bluff. ' Is the button the kind of player that would have bet any pair on the flop after it's checked to him? if so, that's even more reason to put him on a play rather than a hand.
I agree totally. i said this in one of the posts below. However, He is the type to bet any other underpair. He will also definitley call the raise on the turn and is capable of calling the bet on the end so I'm not sure if its the best play WITH THIS PLAYER. On the other hand i think it would be the best play if the player was different. The button cant have a ten and most players would fold for a check raise with the board paired. He can't count me out for a ten (I'm in early position and there was a preflop raiser so i wouldn't automatically bet out on the flop).
I like a bet out on the flop in this situation. Two overcards to the board. a gutshot to the nut straight, a backdoor draw to the second nut flush and a rainbow flop. Add to that the fact that it loooks like you're betting top pair, so when a ten comes on the turn and you bet again you could win it right there.
I'd see merits in betting if no one had raised preflop but I'm not going to win the pot right there in this situation. Betting has no value as a semibluff, I'm going to get called (or raised). My bet on the turn looks suspicious but people can still put me on a ten even without betting the flop (because of the existence of a preflop raiser). So my bet on the turn isn't that suspicious and even if I'm called (I don't think I would have been) i've got plenty of outs.
The idea of betting out on the flop is not to win the pot right there, you want to represent a hand like AT, KT, JT. Mason Malmuth advocates betting out with a ragged flop and if the top card pairs on the turn betting out again. Try it, you'll like it.
maybe in a tigher game. but not one in which the pot is already pretty big and I'm sure to get plenty of callers. I can still represent top pair on the flop (trips on the turn) by checking the flop then betting out on the turn. I think your play would work if it were not raised preflop and there we not as many players involved in the hand.
I think you played it fine. If a check-raise wasn't going to win it for you, how was a single bet going to get you the pot?
I will lead on the flop with this hand maybe half the time, but with 5 players I'm not sure if this was the right play.
But if you had a good table image you definitely missed a nice steal oportunity.
Winger
A check raise wouldn't have worked in this case b/c of the type of the player the button (turn bettor) is. In other cases I think check raising is a great play. The button can't have a ten and a check raise will make most players fold in this situation, just not this guy.
The following hand came up in a 10-20 game in Chicago. The game was loose/average with about 4-7 to see the flop and raises about 60% of the time. Ppl rarely folded to one raise, but usually would fold to two raises. The skill of the players ranged from decent to pretty bad. I was in middle position with AQo and UTG player who is loose/agressive(but not maniac, just too loose) raises. There is one caller between us (same type of player..they were family but not playing partners, I reraise, the button calls, SM folds, and everyone else calls. The flop comes 10 7 2 rainbow. It's checked to me and I bet. Everyone calls. Turn is a 3 making a flush draw possible. It's checked to me and I bet again. The BB folds, everyone else calls. The river is an A, but it didn't make the flush. The guy to my right bets (he was the one who called the first raise cold), I call, everyone else folds. What was the proper play for this hand?
It turns out the player to my right also had AQo and the original raiser had 88. THanks for your responses!
If this game is loose, then what are your bets going to accomplish? If these players are loose then how are you going to get them to fold? You are just betting with A high- not very strong. I think you just got lucky on the river.
In that type of game, I wouldn't often reraise before the flop. And on the flop, I'm not going to bet into that crowd with nothing but two unsuited overcards. Ditto the turn. You were going uphill all the way.
Good point about preflop: AQoffsuit doesn't play very well multiway.
these hands are 10-20 and 15-30 at the turning stone casino near syracuse.
hand 1: a weak tight player raises utg. i cold call in early middle position with KQs. loose very aggressive thinking player calls in late middle position. new player (seems loose) calls in the cutoff. the blinds fold.
the flop comes Jc9h7s. utg bets. he'd bet here with anything he'd raise with preflop. that is AA to TT and AK and AQ. i raise hoping to knock out the two players behind, gain outs against an overpair, and set up knocking out an unimproved TT, AK, or AQ on the turn.
both people behind me call. just as i think 'damn' utg three bets. he would not three bet here with AJ. (he probably wouldn't have raised preflop with it either but he'd definitely not 3 bet the flop with it.) so utg has an overpair. there go my pair outs. hoping for a turn ten i call the three bet. loose aggressive guy caps.
niels (who was in the big blind playing above his bankroll) told me later that my "call" sounded like "cap" and the loose aggressive guy capped it by mistake. but i did not know this at the time.
we all call his cap. i am pretty unhappy with the way the hand is going until i see the turn card -- 3h. now i have lots of outs and have to call all turn action. utg bets out. all call.
river is the 7h. utg bets out. there is of course a chance he has JJ. and someone's two pair could have just filled. i just call going for overcalls. i dont get any and beat utg's wired aces.
i think my river play was wrong. i am also interested on how i should have played the hand if a K or Q came on the turn. and how i should have played K's and Q's on the river.
hand #2: same weak tight player raises on the button. i call in the bb with KTh. flop comes low. i check raise. he thinks for a long while then slowly calls. turn is not a Q or higher. i bet and he folds. he mentions AK getting him in to trouble. decent player in the sb replies he shuoldn't have been in any trouble after the flop missed him, just fold when i raise. needless to say, i think this is pretty lousy advice when facing a good player with an active imagination.
but my real point is that you should never call the blinds check raise on the flop to see what happens on the turn. cause you will usually miss and the blind will almost always bet. either play back at the blind, call him down with your A high or fold immediately to the flop raise.
hand #3: this one shows me to complete moron. i open raise with AA in early position. get 2 cold callers and one blind. flop comes KsQs7c. i bet and am raised by the next player to act. i just call. turn comes 3s. i check. he checks. river comes Ks. what!?!?! Ks? there's already a Ks on the board. wait! the flop K was the Kc. i check he checks. i beat his AQ for a pot that is much smaller than it should have been.
hand #4: i try to avoid preflop discussions, but i think there was one interesting prelfop play i made. decent player open raises in mid position. decent player three bets in late positon. i fold JJ in the sb. i know results dont matter but i was against JJ and QQ. since it matters for this hand, i will specify it was at 10-20.
of course, i appreciate all comments.
scott
On the first hand, your pre-flop cold-call with KQ suited (I gather they were both Hearts) was fine. This is a hand I will not raise with myself but will call if someone else raises. It is one of the prettiest hands you will ever see in hold-em and I seldom drag pots with it. But when the flop comes you have a gutshot straight and a backdoor flush possibility. Your over cards are of dubious value in the face of a tight UTG raiser. In other words a King or Queen coming on the turn could just get you in trouble. I hate your raise because you are on a drawing hand and you don't want to chase people out rather you want them in. You don't want to be heads up with the bettor here. This is poker 101. If a King or Queen comes on the turn you can easily have a good second best hand here but with all the money in the pot I think you are tied in and have to see the hand to the river.
On the second hand you bet your way to victory and nothing succeeds like success. I would have folded on the flop after I check and the weak tight button raiser bets. Not enough money and too few outs.
On the third hand, you should have re-raised on the flop with your pocket rockets. On the turn assuming you read the board correctly and the Three of Spades does not put 3 parts to a flush on the table I think you should bet the turn. When the runner-runner Spade hits as well as pairing the top card card on the flop, I would check and call at the river.
On the fourth hand, calling or folding pocket Jacks from your small blind is marginal since the pre-flop raiser opened from middle position and the 3 bettor was in late position.
hand 2: It takes an "active imagination" to invest 4 sbs with no hand to maybe win a tiny pot, but I'm pretty sure it's not good poker. Especially against a weak-tight guy who is probably not robbing your blind all night. FPS!
Hands 1&4 seem pretty rote, although I am too bored with poker to fold a nice pocket pair like JJ for 25 bucks against middle/late position players.
Hand 3: I can't comment on AA hands as I don't get them enough to gain any experience.
Hand # 1:
I don't think you should raise on the flop here. You've got 2 loose opponents behind you who are extremely likely to have something like a pair and a gutshot, or a gutshot draw with overcards, or even an open-ended draw and will call your raise. Plus, there's a very good chance a K or Q will not be good for you anyway (due to being dominated or destroyed by UTG, and the players behind holding something like JQ or JK). I think the play is to just call here, and see what the turn brings.
If you just call and so does everyone else and the turn brings a K or Q, and UTG bets into you, I would raise if UTG would bet on the turn w/ just overcards or something like AQ when a K comes. If he wouldn't you are beat and I would just call again hoping to catch the T or K or Q.
I think the river play is close.
This hand has a lot of close decisions, I think. I'm curious to hear everyone elses responses.
Puggy
scott,
I am getting sleepy early tonight so I only have time for hand 1.
In the flop I’m not so sure a weak tight player would lead into three opponents with a middle board and three cold callers with overcards. I think he is the favorite to have the overpair. But I still like your raise since it might eliminate hands like AK or KQ behind you and UTG's reaction pins down his hand.
You played the turn fine. And I call the river also hoping for overcalls and no raise.
Regarding the “what ifs”. If a king comes on the turn and UTG leads, there are four possibilities.
1) If he has AA (six ways) you now have about nine outs relative to him. The pot is big and scary to an AA so I raise to eliminate those behind. An AA won’t reraise you.
2) He has KK (one way). You will be reraised but will have to call for the ten, which gives you the straight. I’m too tired to double-check the math.
3) He has QQ (three ways). You won’t be reraised and now he is drawing for a split.
4) He has JJ (three ways). He reraises and you need to spike your ten.
5) He has TT (six ways). He is open ended with a singleton and may not even bet. But if he does I raise.
I’d continue on with the rest of the analysis but my sleep and insanity prevention medication is kicking in so I’ll sign off. Got to get up in 3.5 hours and I decided I needed a good nights sleep so I threw in some cough medication for good measure ;-).
Regards,
Rick
Better living through chemistry!
Hand No.1
I am not saying that the flop raise was correct or incorrect and I am too lazy to really put my mind to it now. But just a thought on why it might be incorrect: A raise on the flop may get someone holding an 8 out. You don't want that. You want him to draw dead if you catch a 10 on the turn.
Of course, one can also conjure up several "thoughts" to say why the raise is correct...I merely point out the above as one reason not to raise.
I wish I knew who your opponents in these hands were. I know most of the players at TS... I also looked for you guys Sat night, but didn't see any likely candidates.
Hand 1: I don't like cold calling a "weak tight" player preflop usually, but it would depend. I think people overvalue the suitedness in these situations.
I don't like the flop raise. The pot is big, but not quite so big that it is worth raising as a dog here. Again it may depend on your read of the "weak tight" player; some of these guys will release even QQ here pretty easy, others could still be called weak tight but won't fold AQ on the turn still.
On the turn you have to call of course.
On the river YOU look weak tight. Raise.
Hand 2: A checkraise is just what the doctor ordered. Well played.
Hand 3: I'm not sure why you didn't reraise the flop, even with your misreading. Is this a "see if spade comes, then decide" call or a slowplay or do you think a cold caller could easily have KQ, etc? Other than that I think you played it okay given the misread.
Hand 4: I would probably call because the raises are from latish position, but folding is OK obviously.
David
weak tight is a college kid with blond hair. not strangler or one of his friends loose very aggressive thinking is a chubby kid who i think is friends with strangler. the decent player between me and weak tight is a guy, 65 or so, whose beautiful college aged daughter visited just in time for me to get a good look at her before i had to go home. i can't think of his name right now but her name is mary. i am really bad with guy's names. i didn't know the other players mentioned.
scott
Hand 1- This might be a dubious call pre-flop, considering that the raiser is tight, but the truth is I'd probably peel a flop as well.
I think the raise on the flop was a bad one, considering that the original raiser likely has a hand that either has you a) beat, or b) badly dominated, the flop is moderately coordinated, and there are aggressive players behind you to act. If this were me, I can probably say I'd muck on the flop IF the pre-flop raiser were a rational player. You've only got 4 clean outs, and I think the pot is laying you about 10-1, so it's only a slight money making proposition if you're sure you won't have to pay 2 (or 3) SB's to see the turn. True, a K or a Q could be good, and this upps your odds somewhat, but I don't think you can look at this as a true 10 outer.
Wait, I take that back... you've got the running flush draw. So that's five clean outs. It's close, but the threat of a re-raise behind me would probably make me muck.
Glad you won the hand.
Scott,
Interesting play on first hand, but what's most stunning is that you could say anything that could be mistaken for "cap."
john
I like your raise on the flop in the first hand (didn't care much for the cap:)). The raise let's you know that a Q is not an out and possibly not a K. This may save you a big bet later on.
3rd hand if I didn't re-raise the flop I definitely lead out on the turn. The river is scary and I definitely check that.
Hand 4 my personal cutoff for calling a 3 bettor is Q-Q/AKs, assuming both players are decent. I definitely muck there given your position.
Winger
15-30 hand I am in the BB with 33 big fish UTG limps. Another limper. Middle position average player raises. One cold call. I call. Flop is 37J rainbow I bet, Utg raises, MP reraises, I reraise. UTG folds (not expected) MP calls. Turn is a T 4th suit. Although the check is inconsistent with my flop betting, I check raise the turn. I bet the river. He calls.
I don't like your checkraise on the turn because you could have cost yourself at least 1 bb. Give MP an over pair to the board and he puts you on a big jack or maybe QQ. You bet out on the turn and he will reraise you with KK AA.
Checkraising the turn is like throwing a bucket of cold water on him. You're waking him up to the fact you've got his AA beat.He'll put you on JT or a set. He's in check and call mode the rest of the way. If the river is a 7 you might get another bet or two out of him.
UTG folded because his raise of your bet with high cards was an attempt to get the preflop raiser off his hand if he held AK or AQ. I'm not saying that your initial bet on the flop was wrong, just that you have to be careful that you don't kill your action by betting when you flop a strong hand and you can easily put your opponents on big cards. If you cold call the preflop raiser on the flop and then bet into him with the scare card T on the turn, he may have difficulty putting you on trips and cold call to the river. UTG may even come along for the ride. Your checkraise on the turn is risky since most good players will check behind you with their one pair.
Regards, Dugie
I don't see anything wrong with the way you got an extra bet on the turn. Maybe he's in calling mode from the time you 4 bet him. He puts you on a set or perhaps two pair if you are a loose player. If he thinks you are an idiot that will 4 bet top pair here and is so agressive that he won't go into calling mode, raising a turn bet, then by all means bet. Much depends on what you think of the player and what he thinks of you. Since you read him correctly for a bet what's the problem ?
By the way, if he raised preflop with JJ you save yourself a bet, or perhaps you can release. Few will 3 bet a checkraiser, who also showed flop strength, on the turn without a big hand. Just my opinion, the others probably differ.
I find that consistent is not how you want to play against better players. IMHO
I was in a very interesting 30-60 game. It had one huge fish(he raised 50% or the time, played 90% of his hands). For example, one hand I raised with KK, he 3 bet with 25o and the flop comes 346. DOH! All the other players at the table were tight/agressive. Some were extremely tough players.
In this particular hand I raised in early position with JsJh(I had been raising a lot because I was getting respect and almost always was able to get the fish heads up). The fish calls in late position and the SB(very tough player, but playing poorly at times) 3 bets it. I cap knowing I am probably beat. The flop is 10d-7d-2c. SB bets, I raise, fish calls, SB re-raises, I call, fish calls. Turn is the 3d. SB bets, I call, fish folds. River is the 5d. SB bets, I call. He turns over KK, no diamond. I'd like advice on how I could have played this better on all rounds. What about raising on the river? I think he bet with the intent to muck if he got raised. Otherwise he would check and call right? What about capping on the flop. I could have possibly gotten a free card on the turn. Thanks in advance for your responses!
Once the third diamond comes on the turn, you have to make a decision. Are you going to represent a flush (or single high diamond on a draw), or are you going to fold? There is no middle ground here. Either raise his bet on the turn, and bet or raise on the river (he should check if you raise on the turn), or muck 'em now. If it were me, I'd toss 'em and get on with the next hand. Your mileage may vary...
GB
"the SB (very tough player, but playing poorly at times) 3 bets it"
He wasn't playing poorly that hand. How many bets do you have to go to realize you're beat? You cap pre-flop and the SB still bets into and 3-bets you on the flop. That should tell you he has an overpair. You have the worst overpair to the board (Ten high) so the best you can do is tie him which is unlikely. Unless this player was on tilt or something, you should have let go much sooner especially if he is as tough as you say he is. You didn't read him right and consequently lost too much money in this hand.
"You didn't read him right and consequently lost too much money in this hand."
Maybe I should have said that you did read him somewhat right since you did mention that you were probably beat pre-flop when you capped it. But you chose to ignore that information and pay him off anyway and ended up losing too much money. Don't ignore the info you get when you raise several times and he responds by re-raising each time.
When you called on 4th street you should have been thinking about the river and all the different scenarios that will arise if a 4th diamond comes. What will you do if your opponent bets into you? What will you do if he checks? When the 4th diamond comes I think you have only two plays. Either fold or raise. Calling is a terrible play. It is almost impossible for you to win if you call in this type of situation. Raising in this type of scenario doesn't have to successful very often for it to show a profit long term.
Bruce
Thanks for the advice guys. I definately think I should have just folded on the turn, but after having made the mistake of calling, I should have raised on the river. There is no point in him betting his KK on the river unless he was willing to much right? What do you guys think about that?
I'm sorry but I don't understand your question.
Bruce
oops...what I meant to say is that there is no point in the tough player betting his KK on the river unless he is willing to muck right?
I would venture to guess that he is trying to represent a big diamond. I certainly don't think he is making a value bet on the end. Perhaps he thinks, although this is somewhat twisted, that you may lay down a smaller diamond because he has been playing the hand so strongly. I often find when there are four to a suit on board that trying to be analytical about things can be detrimental to your bankroll. Players in this situations make all sorts of plays, both good and bad, at the pot. Most opponents with half a brain will typically fold if they are raised after betting without a flush. Good luck with a clueless idiot.
Bruce
Consider just calling the re-raise before the flop. If the flop comes clean you can raise here, then probably muck with a clear conscious if you're three bet. It's a rare player who will three bet before the flop and on the flop out of position that can't beat wired jacks.
I would have probably bet any overpair if I had the diamond. And I think I would at least call a raise.
Winger
I had 9h4d in the big blind in a 10-20 game. UTG, a pro, called, and the rest of the table folded. Flop was AQ9 with 2 spades. I checked and called.
Turn was the 4 of spades and we both checked.
River was a Jack. I checked.
All comments are welcome.
William
I would fold on the flop with bottum pair against a solid opponent. It's a small pot and you missed most of the flop and time for the next hand.
Assuming I called on the flop what I do has a lot to do with my opponent. Does he limp in with AA or AQ? I would probably lead at him and play accordingly. The fact that he now checks on the turn suggest he has little or is drawing. When the turn is checked and a Jack comes I would check. He either has nothing or he may have just gotten there.
Bruce
I had 9h4d in the big blind in a 10-20 game. UTG, a pro, called, and the rest of the table folded. Flop was AQ9 with 2 spades. I checked and called.
Turn was the 4 of spades and we both checked.
River was a Jack. I checked.
All comments are welcome.
It depends what hands you can put him on. Does he usually raise with AK, AQ, TT, JJ UTG? You didn't really give a description on how he plays. Heads up on the flop he will probably bet automatically(depending on your table image though). He most likely has a hand like AQ, AJ, KQ, TT, 99, or 88. It is unlikely for him to have the spade draw, because he would have had to call UTG with Ks-Js, Ks-Ts, or Js-Ts. Again, you didn't really describe the context of the game so it's hard to analyze. Since there was little money in the pot you could have just folded there. If you call on the flop then you should bet out on the turn. If you get raised then you are probably beat and you can muck the hand.
I had 9h4d in the big blind in a 10-20 game. UTG, a pro, called, and the rest of the table folded. Flop was AQ9 with 2 spades. I checked and called.
Turn was the 4 of spades and we both checked.
River was an offsuit Jack. I checked.
All comments are welcome.
William
You should bet the flop. You have a piece of the board, the pot is unraised, and you have only one opponent. You will frequently win without a fight especially if your opponent does not have an Ace. If called, you have outs if you do not have the best hand. Having failed to do this, you should bet the turn with your two pair despite the flush possibility. You do not want to give a free card to your opponent if he has a singleton Spade.
Had you bet the flop, checking the turn with the intention of calling would not have been terrible. It's unlikely this player has 2-pair or even an ace for that matter. Even if he has a spade(s), you are almost surely drawing to a bigger hand and you avoid being check/raised.
My question is why you chose to check/call the flop. Did you miss the 2 spades? If not, why would you checked again on the turn when you made your hand?
I check/called the flop because I had a weak made hand without drawing possibilities, and no idea if I was best or not. I think this sort of hand is the prefect check/calling hand heads up. I will catch some bluffs, and there is no chance of folding the best hand (yet). If I bet, I have a real problem if I am raised.
I checked the turn (with the intention of calling) for more or less the same reason. I felt I had a great bluff catcher. I believe that with a lone spade, my opponent's correct play is to bet, so I was not too worried about giving a free card to a flush draw -- if my opponent has the draw, the money is going in there anyway. By check/calling, I save money against a flush, catch some bluffs, and avoid the guess I would face if I were to bet and get raised.
The drawback of playing the turn as I did is that I do give a free card to straight draws. And then the Jack got there. So I repeat my question -- how should I play the river?
William
If he is agressive I think your play is fine. This is a great opportunity to check/call against a habitual bluffer.
hope i'm never drawing dead,
albert
William, you have no problem if you bet the flop and get raised. When that happens you know you are almost always playing 5 outs. Since the odds are not there for a call, you simply fold. The reason players find themselves in dilemmas on the turn or river is because they put themselves in a check-calling mode early in the hand so now they have to makes guesses about whether or not to play later on.
Jim, just because I am check/calling the flop doesn't mean I can't check/fold the turn. If the turn misses my hand, I will do exactly that.
Suppose I do have a 5 outer. I think I'm better off putting in that bet as a call, and seeing the turn card to see if it hits one of my 5 outs, than putting it in as a bet, getting raised, folding, and not seeing if I catch one of my 5 outs.
Also, there are plenty of hands that I can beat that the pro is likely to bet once, then stop betting. An underpair is a prime example. A gutshot is another.
One final point: in general, people are a lot more capable sf taking one bluff at you than they are two. And that one bluff may be a raise. This is another reason to check/call rather than bet/fold.
William
Jim, just because I am check/calling the flop doesn't mean I can't check/fold the turn. If the turn misses my hand, I will do exactly that.
Suppose I do have a 5 outer. I think I'm better off putting in that bet as a call, and seeing the turn card to see if it hits one of my 5 outs, than putting it in as a bet, getting raised, folding, and not seeing if I catch one of my 5 outs.
Also, there are plenty of hands that I can beat that the pro is likely to bet once, then stop betting. An underpair is a prime example. A gutshot is another.
One final point: in general, people are a lot more capable of taking one bluff at you than they are two. And that one bluff may be a raise. This is another reason to check/call rather than bet/fold.
William
But William, you are not getting the right price to call with a 5 outer. While "bluff raises" are always possible they are not the norm. When someone raises you on the flop they are less likely to be messing with you then when they bet the flop after you have checked. No strategy is perfect but I think your approach of check-calling is a long term money loser. You will frequently end up going too far with an inferior hand and never really knowing where you are at.
Jim,
All I can say to that is, I've won a hell of a lot of money playing heads up. I believe this requires a balanced game, and part of that balance includes check calling on the flop with hands that you will check fold on the turn.
William
William:
I'm not saying you played the hand poorly. You may have played it fine. You know this opponent and his tendencies better than I. I just think that it's real close on whether or not to continue at all. You called this a "weak made hand". I consider bottom pair/4 kicker as just a plain old "weak hand" that might be best at the moment. I don't think you'd be giving up much in this spot had you bet the flop and folded for a raise even if it was a bluff or semi-bluff raise.
As to how to play the river, I think one street leads to the next in the play of this hand. I hate losing bets with the best hand. However, since you chose to check and call the whole way, it's harder to ascertain your hand's value on the river. So I think it simply comes down to the chances of your opponenet calling with a worse hand if you bet, betting with a worse hand if you check and if he's a real pro, even raising with a worse hand if you bet. That's my take anyway.
Kevin
The type of flop that fell cannot easily miss "the pro" under the gun. Even if he didn't pair he must have some sort of draw or over cards to your nine. There is a very small pot, you are out positioned by a good player. Does this sound like a good time to battle?
You may have flopped the best hand and you must, in my humble opinion, bet the flop. Checking here allows him to control the hand and even if he is a habitual bluffer (a pro shouldn't be), at the very least the board would suggest his bet is a semibluff at the worst. If you check here, I suspect that a fold is in order for the same reasons that you should fold to a raise(see below). This may be regarded as weak tight by some but the overriding factor here is that there is a small pot. Go to war for family, honour, hot women(ok its debateable), not small pots against this dude.
However, I would fold to a raise on the flop. His raise is one of two things: a legitmate bet, that could have you beat significantly, perhaps drawing dead, or it is a semi bluff. And what is the defense to a semibluff? There isn't much of one and there is little money in the pot to contest.
If you survive to the turn, I think a bet is in order here as well. As a general rule of thumb, bet hands on fourth that have few outs if beaten and check hands that have outs. Many players would consider checking here with AK where the K is a spade to be an egregious error, but this hand is a better check call canditate if there is one here( i wouldnt check either one). You may have four outs (pocket AA, QQ would negate this), if you are beat, but I think now, the pot justifies calling a raise as you are probably ahead.
The river is a check call situation in most situations I think. You cannot now let this go having gotten this far. What is the chance of him calling with a hand that cannot beat yours? I suspect it is insufficient to jusitify a bet, but the pot now is enough to warrant a call. But this also is a judgement call. He could easily raise you now with a made hand, if your bet.
The best thing I can learn from this post is that I do not believe this is a hand/flop that you want to go at it with a pro under the gun. Save your ammo for later.
Calling on the flop against a player you know to be a pro on the premise that you can pick off a bluff or to go runner runner if you're beat is in my opinion poor poker.Two overcards spell your doom,and I think that even if you hold the best hand on the flop(you'll never know) you should release.Almost like when a sharp pro that you know semi bluffs alot is against you and your pretty sure hes on a semi bluff you still have to release due to the texture of the flop in relation to your hand..As for the turn it seems to be a terrible check unless you were going for a check raise and knew he'd bet,which obviously wasnt the case.Did you check the turn/river to check raise, or did you make a hand that you had no idea wheather or not was any good?Something to think about.
.
I think a bet on the turn was mandatory. You likely would have won it right there because he doesn't have a spade. Now you could lose to KT or QJ. If he has AJ he plays a strange game for pro. My quess is he had medium suited connectors (JTs-76s)or suited high cards like those noted above, but in the wrong suit.
I checked the river and he checked behind me, showing QT. My hand was good.
On thinking about it some more, I believe I should have bet it on the end. The reason is that I don't think he would have checked a flush, but from his viewpoint, there is every chance that I checked a flush on the turn, intending to check raise. So if I bet it on the end, it is difficult for him to raise me, even with a straight. And all the hands that beat me, he would have bet if I had checked. So the only time betting will cost me is if he would have tried a bluff had I checked, but I win calls from one-pair hands, which are more likely than a nothing hand that he would bluff.
William
if you have the inclination please check out my post under high stakes, i called it-laying down a big hand at pl omaha. whould greatly appreciate your opinion.
You raise with QQ in early position and the player to your left three bets. Everyone else folds. The player is average to slightly loose-aggressive.
(1) Do you always re-raise? Always just call?
Assume you just call. The flop is all rags, rainbow, unconnected. You bet, he calls. Turn is an ace, 4th suit.
(2) Now what?
I have run into this a few times lately....
Preflop: Vary your play but lean towards calling
Turn: Generally bet and fold if raised. It will be difficult for your opponent to raise without an Ace but pretty easy for him to bet without an Ace if you check. So, the best play usually is to bet and fold if raised.
With an average loose aggressive player I would reraise 100% of the time, because you don't need to vary your play with this opponent. They will keep coming. Call against a tight aggressive player, but sometimes reraise them. You image is very important against these players and you need to vary your play. Remember heads up you go into the check and call mode if an over card comes like and Ace on the turn. You rarely fold a big pair heads up.
10/20 game, Binion's. Again I'm a new face, all locals. I'm in the BB with AhJs. UTG limps, he is a LV local who is trying to preserve a win, one other caller, a tilted geeser, SB calls, I check. I'm suspicious because I havn't called any raises or lost any money and I think a trap is being set for the geeser and I. Most pots are 3 way or heads up, so he wouldn't limp with junk. Should I have raised ? I can't see the limper having a much worst hand than mine. Maybe AJs,ATs,KJs,KTs,QJs,QTs or JTs. Flop comes KdJd9s. I bet, UTG raises, all fold to me. I call.
I have called his friend down with a pair of 4's from the BB and won after he semi-bluffed and didn't hit, so I don't think I would be bluffed, but considered a calling station.
Turn is the Ad, I've got two pair. I check he bets. I call, I don't fear a flush because of the cutoff raise, but it's possible he could be trapping with AKo or maybe he limped with QTs. I think of check raising for value but don't. Too timid ? River is a blank I check, he checks. I win, he doesn't show. Did I play this to timidly ?
Pre-flop, you should not raise out of your big blind with Ace-Jack offsuit when three other people have limped in. The hand is not strong enough and you are out of position. If it were one person who limped from middle position or late position then a raise could be considered but not when 3 other people come in. I like your flop bet with middle pair and an Ace over card in this unraised pot. When raised by the UTG you are either looking at a King or a Diamond flush draw usually. Calling is fine. I think you should bet the turn despite the flush possibility. You have only one opponent and he probably does not have a flush. Furthermore, you have outs to beat a flush. You don't want to give out a free card here. I don't understand your comment about a "cutoff raise". When he bets you should raise since you probably have the best hand. With AK he would have raised pre-flop.
By "cutoff raise" I thinking of the flop raise which cost extra if he were on a draw. I think it was designed to charge or fold drawers, not by a drawer.
Are you saying no one limps with AK, AKs, or AA in these games to get callers when few will play a weak hand for a raise and the blinds are all he will get ? He didn't play many hands and a raise would have had me thinking of even dumping my hand, preflop, like I had many times before.
I asked a question, you answered, correctly I might add, then I questioned the answer. I'm not sure what I hoped to acomplish, besides confirmation.
Use of the term geezer was not called for either. This guy aggrevated others as well by not keeping up with the action, but he played 80 % of the time. Hope that wasn't anyone we know. I guess I'm done here, thanks.
I don't see the point of raising your blind. Once he raises you on the flop you have to put him on a bigger hand. The turn card was probably lucky for you. I don't think you should miss a bet on the fifth card.
If you're going to be checking and calling with the best hand on the turn and then checking on the river, something's wrong with the way you played it. When you called his raise on the flop, you did so in the expectation that if your ace fell, you'd have the best hand. So I don't know why you're checking and calling. If you didn't think you'd have the best hand, you should have folded on the flop.
Pump or dump.
Well said Richard!
20/40 HWP:
Hello let me set this up. It’s a loose game with an early raiser. This Lady is not only loose aggressive, but will bluff at a high rate if she misses the flop. Everyone folds. I'm in late position with Kc-Qc. I like my hand against this raiser. The BB is a defender he hasn’t folded a blind in 3 hours even if it was capped. I can't isolate the (LAP) so I just call and so does the BB.
The flop Kh-Ts-2c: BB checks LAP bets I like this flop I would usually raise, but given the fact that this player will bet any hand all the way with a bluff and the BB will call with anything I think my best play is to just call.
The Turn: Kh-Ts-2c-6d: The LAP bets. I like the turn card it shouldn’t have helped anyone. I just called. If I raise she will fold and I will stop her from bluffing. Is this thinking correct or should I raise now and try to take the pot. There is a slim chance that my hand is no good. I call and the big blind folds.
The river: Kh-Ts-2c-6d-2s: LAP bets I raise, because if she reraises I can safely fold I never saw her reraise as a bluff. She calls with As-Tc. All comments welcome.
I'd play it faster since her bluff could easily become two pair. I'd be more worried about the random blind hand hitting two pair or a runner for trips. A pair of Kings with a queen is a good hand, but certainly not strong enough to slow play against TWO people. If the BB had called the turn then you would have to be pretty worried.
"I'm in late position with Kc-Qc. I like my hand against this raiser. The BB is a defender he hasn’t folded a blind in 3 hours even if it was capped. I can't isolate the (LAP) so I just call and so does the BB."
This is a good plan. Raising won't thin the field and with a speculative hand, it won't add value.
"The flop Kh-Ts-2c: BB checks LAP bets I like this flop I would usually raise, but given the fact that this player will bet any hand all the way with a bluff and the BB will call with anything I think my best play is to just call."
Risky, but given the flop and the players, it's probably ok.
"The Turn: Kh-Ts-2c-6d: The LAP bets. I like the turn card it shouldn’t have helped anyone. I just called. If I raise she will fold and I will stop her from bluffing."
Winning the pot here isn't as bad as letting the big blind and LAP see another card for one bet. Who's to say the BB wasn't helped by the 6? A raise here would be my recommendation, you've let them come far enough.
I think you were fortunate to win this hand, being this passive in most instances will lead to someone drawing out on you.
GB
I am not comfortable with the way you played this hand at all. Your read on the situation has to be highly accurate on both players. At some point, preferably the cheap street, you need to raise with your hand since it is good but vulnerable. You don't want a third player staying in cheaply and sucking out on you. Your play does have the advantage of minimizing your loss when the LAP has a real hand for her pre-flop raise like AK and it maximizes your win if you can get her to keep betting your hand for you.
Playing Planet Poker last night. 10-20 game. I am in the bb with 64 offsuit. 6 way action. The flop comes AhJh7s with 2 hearts. No one bets. Turn is the Jack of Clubs. I bluff and take the pot.
So, the question I have is this: How would you rank these turn cards in terms of providing the blinds with the best bluffing opportunity. In other words, in my example above, rank the following turn cards in terms of their bluffability:
Ac
As
Jc
Js
7c
7h
2c
2h
Ks
Kh
Heh, it seems weird to me to answer your question on this skp, since your guest essays on this site, combined with HPFAP, are my mine guides for when to all out steal. It's also tricky because you can probably profitably bluff no matter what card falls.
I would say the kings are the worst cards to bluff at, people could easily have JK for two pair or KQ, KJ, JT, KT for a pair and a gutshot, or even have started with QT for a straight.
Obviously a spade brings another flush draw, and I'd say a heart is not that great either.
Any of the board pairing cards that don't bring a flush draw are pretty good, ace is the best.
Skp,
I’ll just rank them as very good, good, fair, and poor with a few brief comments. It will be a bit easier and to be frank, I thought this post would get more replies when I first read it earlier today (I didn’t have time to reply then). Perhaps in some cased the increased number of forums is hurting the critical mass needed to generate a lot of responses.
You wrote: ”Playing Planet Poker last night. 10-20 game. I am in the bb with 64 offsuit. 6 way action. The flop comes AhJh7s with 2 hearts. No one bets. Turn is the Jack of Clubs. I bluff and take the pot. So, the question I have is this: How would you rank these turn cards in terms of providing the blinds with the best bluffing opportunity. In other words, in my example above, rank the following turn cards in terms of their bluffability:”
Note that all turn cards are dangerous if someone was slowplaying a monster on the flop. That being said here goes:
Ac – Fair: An offsuit ace is better than a suited ace but many weak aces won’t bet the flop but call when they make trips on the turn.
As – Poor: Worse than the above ace because now all spade draws will stay with you.
Jc – Fair to Poor: Jacks are a hand that people play before the flop but probably won’t bet with the ace on board.
Js – Poor: Same problem as the Jc but now all spade draws will play.
7c – Good to Fair: Better than the jacks since a seven is less likely to be played pre flop.
7h – Fair: They will fear your flush but you won’t be able to shake anyone holding the Qh, Th or maybe even the 9h.
2c – Very Good: They have to fear two pair in the big blind and only hands that can possibly redraw against two pair will play (but why didn’t they bet the flop?).
2h – Good to Fair: Now only the better hearts will play.
Ks – Poor: A well position king will often call figuring the ace may not be out. In addition, spades will play.
Kh – Fair to Poor: The three flush on board will eliminate the weak kings so it is better than the king of spades above.
Regards,
Rick
Rick, I often think that if you and I were to play a million hours in the same game, we would have identical results because we seem to think alike [fools never differ?:)]
But here's a spot where my views are somewhat different than yours...I think. These would be my approximate rankings although certainly some can be interchanged:
1. Jack of Clubs - while it is true that "Jacks are a hand that people play before the flop but probably won’t bet with the ace on board", the fact that a second Jack is now on the board makes it less likely that anyone else has a Jack. I prefer the Jc over the Ac because if the Ac hits on the turn, it becomes more likely that someone checked a Jack on the flop and will now either call or raise me on the turn.
Notice also that in most games, you can rule out a Jack for the last 2 players in position i.e., they probably would have bet the flop with 2nd pair. Thus, if I can get through the first 2 players in position, I am probably home free.
2. Ace of Clubs - The checks on the flop indicate no Ace out there. Thus, when I bet, I can be fairly confident that no one else has an Ace but they can't be so confident that I don't have an Ace as I could have easily checked a weak Ace in the blinds to see how the action develops.
3. Jack of Spades- It's weaker than the Jack of Clubs as now Spade draws will play with you.
4. Ace of Spades - Weaker than Ace of Clubs for same reason.
5. Deuce of Clubs - a complete blank. First one in with the money will get the pot often enough to make it a good bluff
6. Seven of Hearts - The fact that no one bet the flop indicates that no one likely flopped a Heart draw. From the blinds, I could have a Seven. Given that there are now 3 hearts on board and a pair of 7's, it's unlikely that I will be called by a Jack particularly because the Jack (if it's out there) is likely in the hands of the players to my immediate left who not only have to worry about me having made a flush or trips but also others behind them.
I will likely only be called by someone hoding the Kh or Qh. Of course, if I am called, I am put in a difficult spot because I have to fire another bluff at the end.
7. King of Hearts - I could be betting a wide variety of hands here and it will be difficult for someone to call unless they made a staright or held the Qh.
8. Seven of Clubs- This is close to the 7h but somewhat weaker IMO because I no longer can represent a flush when I bet.
9. Deuce of Hearts- Ok , I am too lazy to comment any further:)
10. King of Spades - a very bad card to bluff with as it likely hit someone who has no reason to get out for a single bet.
I am UTG with AdKc. I raise, OK player #1 calls, and OK player #2 raises...this is 20/40, these guys are OK for this limit, meaning they can probably average $10-$15 per hour at best. Button calls (!)...and big blind calls too...I call...OK#1 calls..pot is 16sb.
Flop comes AcJcTd
BB checks, I check, OK Player #1 bets, OK player #2 calls...everyone else folds...I raise...OK Player #1 calls, OK Player #2 calls. 22sb in the pot.
Turn is 3c. I bet....OK Player #1 calls, OK player #2 raises.....what would you do in this spot? he's either got two pair, a set or a flush, I need to catch a Q or a club to have a winner, and an outside shot that a K gives me a winner (but I discount that possibility, I think more likely, the guy has a set). The pot is now 30sb - I look at OK player#1, and he's in position to fold, so I don't have to worry about him....I figure most probably I have 9 clubs (the raiser can't have a club if he has a set, unless he has a set of T) and it would have been unlikely for him to raise with two clubs since I have Kc, and Ac is on the board....and probably the 3 other Qs are good outs for me too....so I have 12 outs...thus making it an easy call for a 15 big bet pot.
River is a blank (can't remember exactly what it was).
I check, OK player #2 bets.
Should I call or fold?
I debated this and thought there was an outside chance he was betting AK, and an even more outside chance he had AQ...and with the pot at 17 big bets now, I'm getting 17-1 that he's betting AK (8 to 1 on AK) or AQ or just bluffing. So he only needs to do this about 6% of the time to make it a breakeven call.
Even so, I don't think its correct to call...but I do anyway, like sheep. He turns over 3 Jacks.
Thoughts please.
I think you played the hand fine. I may have bet out on the flop though to see where I was out with such a large field. I may have even reraised the turn, but since you knew the player in between you and the set was going to fold, calling was correct.
I think you played fine. My own personal preference is to simply bet the flop since I do not want to give out free cards here. If the pre-flop re-raiser was 3 betting with pocket Queens or pocket Kings he might be afraid to bet the flop.
I check & call the whole way Doubtful he would 3 bet it w/KQ, but maybe - more likely a big pair soounds like a losing player to me (or has he never played against pocket Aces before??)(thinking he has best hand w/JJ??)
I think you lose to AQ too as he flopped Broadway. You seem to be implying that you win vs. AQ
nt
I don't like the check raise on the flop -- you should bet. You don't want to give a free card to a gutshot and you are likely trailing with that flop and multiple callers. After that I don't think you had a lot of options but I think calling is ok. If you know the opponent well you could fold on the river but there's a lot of dough in there and he could have AK, maybe worse.
Sometimes you just gotta play the hand, take your licks and move on. I may check, cry and call the turn and river but may have done what you did also. Once you get to the river it is just too big a pot to give up for free, even though it is hard to imagine you having the best hand.
Vince.
Yeah, I would call on the end too.
In my weaker moments I would be susceptible to "fancy-play syndrome" on the turn, and would lose more money. You played well by doing the sensible thing and just called instead of raising to represent a flush or straight. Since you correctly put him on a set, such a raise would not have gotten him out anyway, and it is unlikely that he would fold on the end with the pot that big.
Steve
I would have raised on the turn if I had position on him, and could check the river if it didn't come for me...however, in this particular hand, I was first to act...so I couldn't use that ploy.
I was the 1st one in 1 off the button with T-T. I raise and both blinds call. I had only been playing for about an hour. Both seemed to be solid(but not great) players. I had a tight aggressive image, although I had been raising a decent amount in late position. The flop came QT2 rainbow. SB checks, BB checks. I bet SB raises, BB reraised, I call. At this point I put the BB on 22, QT, Q2, KJ, J9, or overpair(not sure if he would have reraised pre-flop). QT is highly unlikely though because 3 tens are already out. I put the SB on KQ,AQ(not sure if he would have reraised pre-flop), 22, QT, KJ, or overpair. I didnt think he would call Q2 or J9 in the SB.
Turn is another Q making the board QT2Q. SB bets, BB folds(overpair or straight draw), I raise, SB re-raises, I call. I think from my flop play the SB can put me on either AA, KK, AQ, TT, KJ, QT, or J9(the latter 2 on a steal). When he 3 bets me on the turn I put him on AQ, QT, or Q2. This was confusing. QT was highly unlikely because of the 3 tens that were already out and I just didn't think he would call Q2 from the SB. When I raise on the turn he can narrow my hand down to AQ, TT, or QT.
The river is another T making the board QT2QT. He bets, I raise, he calls. He shows Q2s. I show my quads. What do you guys think of my analysis and how the SB played post-flop. I think he should have check called the river because at best he can only chop and he has to pay off a raise on the river if he bets.
It depends on the player, of course, but once the SB reraises you on the turn, I'd have to put him on a bigger hand. Or at the very least, he has the potential to clobber you. He should not have called your last raise, but for him to bet was not incorrect.
Doubtful that the small blind - if solid player- would call a raise w/ Q-2 I'd be more likely to put him on QQ and just smooth call the pre-flop raise
You got lucky!
I didn't put him on QQ because I was almost sure that he would re-raise before the flop and isolate me(late position raiser). If he just calls there is a good chance the BB will call and draw out on him if he has overcards. I also think he would have check called on me with top set on the flop, then tried to check raise me before the flop.
How can Q-2 not call the last raise? This could easily be a chop and the pot is huge.
Interesting perspective. Would you mind explaining your reasons why you believe a bet on the river to be correct? If I have AQ or QT I could very well be raising him on the river. I don't know how he can muck when he is getting 16 1/2 to 1 to call.
You are right -- bad bet on the river by him. But a guy who calls 1.5 bets with Q2 is not going to figure out that you could have 10-10 until you raise on the river. Nice hand.
no doubt an internetpoker hand,in the future keep these posts on the internet poker board.internet poker is not real poker!if i am wrong i apologize.although i am 99% sure this is a typical (paradise)internet hand.
This situation happened last weekend, 10/20, 10 players.
It's been a tight table for most of the night with silly situations like, "I'm raising blind in middle position to unsettle the rocks." I am UTG with AsAh and I raise. All fold to late position players who call including the button. The blinds call too and I'm thinking they got loose all of a sudden or maybe they don't respect my raise.
The flop is QhJc6d. SB checks, BB, checks, I bet, late position players fold, the SB raises, BB folds, I re-raise, the SB re-raises and I muck. He shows me the cards, which I don't care to see, because I knew I was beat.
Did I play this correctly? Should I have waited until the turn? I thought that I was drawing dead with all the late callers and the blinds being in. Thanks in advance for your advice.
Stephen
you have to call one more small bets with fifteen in there already. you have an overpair and two cards to come. I'd have to have a really good read on my opponents to make this fold. Of course, I play in N Cal wher the flop can be capped on some pretty funky holdings sometimes.
You can't be drawing dead here. The worst case scenario is that you only have 2 outs. Easy call on the flop and probably easy calls to the river.
AA heads-up is usually a license to see the river and make a crying call if necessary.
Huh?
With a call only pre-flop I'd be more likely to put the raiser on QJs than QQ. If the six pairs you win so you have 5 outs for the turn plus another three outs for the river if the turn card pairs there.
Unless you're positive that the raiser had QQ you have to call this one at least to the river and even then I'd tend to make a crying call on the 1 in 8 or 9 chance it was AQ or KK.
There is 15 SB in the pot when you fold, you should be able to call a 15:1 shot. Unless you are SURE the SB has QQ, JJ, 66 you should NOT fold.
Since small blind only calls before the flop he most likely has QJ (maybe JJ). You have many redraws to 2 pair (5 outs on the turn) and if you miss 8 on the river.
If the SB had trips I would say good fold.
Derrick
Even if you knew sb had QQ, you would have to call one more bet on the flop. You are a 22 to 1 shot to hit an Ace on the turn and you will make more than 22 small bets if you hit.
I don't think this was a good fold. It is possible that he had 2 pair. If he did you have a great chance of catching up to him.
It is possible that he flopped a set and this will be tougher to beat.
It also depends on the opponent. I know some tricky players who will play an open ender this way. If he percieves you as a person who will lay down AA 20% of the time his 3 bet is profitable.
He is a 2:1 dog to make the straight. He probably knows what you have. Before the flop there were what, 5 people in? So 5BB in the pot.
He bets his open ender and you raise. Now there are 6.5 BB in. Even if he has absolutely nothing at all, he will make money by 3 betting you if you will fold just 1 time in 5. He could have 72 offsuit and this play would be profitable.
Now, if he DOES have an open ender, then the rate at which you would have to lay this hand down is much much smaller.
I can't remember laying down AA on the flop in a limit game. I've cut it loose on the turn many times. The only way I'd fold on the flop would be if I had 2 black aces and the flop came T98 all hearts against 9 people. Then if there was a bet and 2 raises I'd muck em. But short of that? Hmmmmmmm
-SmoothB-
If your convinced your opponent had a set, then the fold was correct. How you arrived at this, I don't know. But, the odds are reasonable he has QJ,AQ or a straight draw. If this were my read, a 3 bet is mandatory.
I had been playing at the table for a while and got a pretty good feel for everyone. I had actually put him on a better hand than he had. I thought JJ but he had QJ. I guess it was ESP or something. I knew I had a ton of outs, I just didn't feel good about them. Don't get me wrong. I don't fold AA at the tip of a hat. Thanks, everyone.
This doesn't seem right to me... anyone else?
I don't recall ever seeing this question posted or printed and don't know if anyone could accurately find an answer so I am relying on experience and instinct from you. I recently had a discussion with two middle limit players about what the best hand was, from a money making perspective. I lean toward JTs, one of the others liked small pairs or connectors because they are easy to release and great to build with if they hit. The other player thought normal premium cards, the best of Sklansky lever 1 hands, would get the best return. This informal poll will be interesting to tabulate. Please, freely comment.
give me AsAh every time (yes those suits...may as well take the highest ranking suits too ;-))
Premium hands are called so for a reason. Insurance has nothing to do with it.
Im fond of AA too but I'm less picky about the suits, as long as the are not the same suit; that might raise some eyebrows.
Seriously, this is not a close call, although the hands that you mention also make money in many situations if you play them well.
It's not even close. In a $10-20 game AA will win from $60 to $70 on average, while JTs should be happy to take down the blinds ($15).
---
Izmet Fekali
Burek Experts Ltd.
Catering the World Since 1389!
Albania, Slovenia, Europe
http://www.fekali.com
AA...end of discussion (IMO).
This conversation only makes sense in the context of a no-limit game - in which you have infinite implied odds and can take the entire stack of some guy with 34s if the flop hits. (PS - I still like AA in no limit)
I agree-- it's a no brainer. However, I think it would be interesting to find out what everyone's FAVORITE hands are. Mine's 48s- preferably in clubs. No doubt about it.
You could win a jackpot with that hand!!
C'est vrai. However, that wasn't the hand--- the one that dragged the bacon was black 9's, when I turned quads and my buddy rivered a straight flush to the K. I don't remember exactly how the 84 of clubs became my hand. I remember limping with it early in a 2-5 game once, then listening to my buddy Paul snicker when he saw my hand. He wasn't laughing anymore when the flop came 44K... I forgot about it, but he didn't, and before long I was playing the hand (only the club variety) against all comers. I seem to flop some monsters with that hand, which is unusual, since it isn't the kind of starting hand that exactly lends itself to big flops. But, there's something about it. And now I have to play it, since I've got it tatooed on my right shoulder.
At limit, my vote is for AA to be the best money maker. My vote for the biggest money losers are AQo and AJo. In no limit, 45o, 46o, 75o and the like are my biggest money makers. AQo is my public enemy no.1. I'd rather have 72o than AQo at no limit.
I can only speak for full tabled limit hold-em. AA by far with KK a distant second. QQ is a distant third. AK suited, JJ, and AK offsuit are a close fourth.
Suited connectors are grossly overvalued in all games. They play best in unraised pots with lots of players. They are better in loose, passive games which are usually low limit games. They don't play at all very well in tight, aggressive games which are typical at the higher limits ($15-$30 and above).
AA is by far the single most money making hand there is from any position and against any number of players.
JT suited is HIGHLY over rated and is NOT profitable if played from early position. On the button, with enough callers in the pot and with no raises, it can be profitable. But I assure you, if you were to play JT suited under the gun for 1000 hands you would end up with less money than you started with.
In fact, there are very very few hands that can be played profitably UTG. It also depends on the texture of the game - but in a tight, tough game, muck em UTG.
-SmoothB-
A-A suited or not (over time) J-10s may win bigger pots - but you loose a lot while waiting to win the big(ger?) one.
I am in the Big Premium cards camp. They make a good amount (not a large amount) most of the time...that's fine for me.
AA is first and KK is second.
Splitting the Hold'em Forum into so many categories is a poor approach. It makes navigation and participation more awkward and finding specific threads difficult. How subtle the difference between 'General Theory' and Hold'em 'General [Theory]'. Must be particularly hard on Schizophrenics.
I was playing in a $30-$60 game at the Bellagio last night and having a good run. I am sitting in Seat #3 just to the right of the cutoff with the 4h4d. #9, #10, and #2 all limp in. It looks like the cutoff and small blind are planning to limp. I decide to limp in for $30. Sure enough the cutoff limps, the button folds, and the small blind limps. The big blind does not raise. There is $210 in the pot and seven players.
The flop is: 9h6c5d
Five of my six opponents all check to me. Now the flop is rainbow. If anyone had a Nine or an over pair I think they would have bet despite the large field. With only one opponent yet to act, I bet $30 representing a Nine to see what will happen. Maybe someone with a weak Six or Five will fold, who knows? Only the cutoff and small blind call with everyone else folding. There is $300 in the pot and three players.
The turn is: 3s
The small blind checks. I now have an open ended straight draw with any Deuce or Seven. However, if someone has an Eight than a Seven kills four of my outs. Someone with specifically Eight-Seven has me drawing dead. But with only two opponents no one may have any of this and a bet here on the expensive street might get my two opponents to fold. I have outs if I am called. I bet $60. The cutoff raises to $120. The small blind calls two bets cold. There is now $600 in the pot and it costs me $60 to call and see the river with no possibility of a re-raise. A Deuce could be a clean out if no one has Eight-Seven or Seven-Four with the latter being unlikely. I rate to collect another $60 on the river if a Deuce comes so my implied odds are about 11:1. This ignores the possibility of a Seven being an out. I call. There is $660 in the pot and three players.
The river is: 2d
The small blind checks. I bet $60 with my straight. The cutoff calls and the small blind folds. I win a $780 pot as the cutoff mucks. I finally get to suck out on someone in this game. I wonder if a Four was an out.
I think you played it perfect - proud of you for gambling on the flop against that many opponents. Also not folding on the turn after a raise - good call. You're beginning to get very loose. I thought people were saying you were weak-tight. I guess that's the old Jim.
You know it's just a matter of time until they bar you from the Bellagio 30/60 game :-) Right?
Jim I liked the way you played the hand. I might of went for the check raise. Would the cutoff put you on a four.
This would be "pole vaulting" the fence, Jim:).
Seriously, nice hand...well played and well thought out as usual.
What do you think your opponents had?
Jim I agree. You played the hand well but I don't think you can call this a suck out. You had every right to be there. A suck out is bottom pair beating a flopped set by going runner runner quads.
PS: Your frequent posts are of tremendous value to many of us newer and learning players. 2+2 would probably be happy to publish your book if Mason and Sklansky could take the heat. Thanks
The way the hand played out it seems like the cutoff had a set of 3's. If he had top pair or 2 pair on the flop he would have raised you on the flop to narrow the field. The SB could have had a 7, which gives him a double gutshot on the turn. Cant think of much else he could be calling with.
Aha! If someone else had posted this hand 6 months ago, Jim Brier might have responded as follows: :-)
Your call pre-flop is correct. Ther has been no raise and you stand to win a big pot if you hit a 4 on the flop.
On the flop, I would not bet. There are 3 overcards to your pair, plus a straight or straight draw is a possiblity. The only cards that help you hand on the turn are a 4 or a 3; anything else is trouble.
On the turn, you still have an underpair, but now with a draw. Take the free card.
On the river, you obviously have a winner; your bet is correct.
How much tougher to play against you it must now be. Roy Cooke has his work cut out for him.
Well done. And, by the way, the clarity of your post in terms of your reconstruction of the hand and your thinking, was, as always, excellent and should be used as a model for other posters.
Thought I'd butter you up a bit before my next disagreement with you. (which won't be until the end of next week, I'm going to be on-line-less for a while.)
"I finally get to suck out on someone in this game."
That line cheered me up, good for you Jim!
-Don
Jim,
Given that I only play 10-20 and 20-40 here in Chicago and without knowing the players in the game, my thoughts are as follows.
PRE-FLOP - Given that you were on a good run and more importantly, had a good read on the players still to act, the call was ok although I usually like to be in the cutoff seat or on the button.
FLOP - I agree that the bet was the right move at this point.
TURN - Given that I had not gained position as I would have hoped with the bet on the flop, I would have checked the turn. I like my draw but do want to pay 2 or possibly 3 big bets for it. I understand the chance of winning the pot outright can in some cases justify the bet, but I still probably would have checked.
RIVER - Betting the dream card on the river is definitely the right move. I must admit though that check raising certain opponents who have a tendency to tilt can be so much fun and extremely profitable. Even so, I still would have bet and called if raised as 78s is still the nuts.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D (Soccer/Sucker Mike)
The clearest play on this hand is the turn.
Jim bet the flop and met no resistance. A blank (which in fact improves Jim's hand) hits the turn. It would be insane to check.
On the river, I would be disinclined to go for the checkraise. Firstly, my opponent may not bet if he has a set. Secondly, the way he played this hand, he could easily be holding the nuts. Thus, if I check and he bets, it would be difficult to smoke him with a raise. BTW, I put the button on a slowplayed set and the small blind on a hand like 76 which gives him second pair/ gut shot on the flop and a double gutter on the turn.
I'm in LA, enjoying the amusements of the rooms here. I've never seen so many players play so much trash at the 15-30 level. I'm salivating, because when players are consistently playing 83s from early position and 84o from late position, the game is supposed to be good, right?
Unfortunately, I'm getting my arse handed to me. Part of it is bad luck (twice AA gets beaten by a 5 on the river making someone who cold called two bets with K5o pre-flop the winner; once my AKs makes KKKAA but gets beat AAAKK; and more). I also think I am semi-bluffing too much -- these players are calling stations (I saw a guy call the river K3o -- no pair -- after lecturin me on ho bad 3-6 players were).
So, from those of you with experience in LA game, I'd love to hear your thoughts on playin well in these games and some encouragement. Also, does collection change how you should play pre-flop? Are they any rooms that you think are must-not-miss?
Look foward to hearing you thoughts.
Good cards, NW Card Hack
The Hustler Casino is a must see! If you don't like their games, you can check out the 15-30 at the Normandie just up the street; the Normandie has better service and food (free for yellow chippers).
Regarding collections, you can play a bit looser with a time collection (or button collection) than with a rake. Good luck!
NW:
I don't play in LA, but I know what you are talking about. The only thing you can do is play YOUR game and don't get sucked into this garbage. Many people play 15-30 like 3-6 or 6-12, it is truly amazing.
I don't know how long your in LA, but the more hours you can in, the better yours results will be. It sounds to me like your making interest free loans. If your time expires,just plan another trip to collect on your "loans".
The flucuations are huge there,realize that you can be by far the best player in the game and lose for a year straight.Vegas is so underated for poker,its a much better game there.I know ,Ive played those shootouts for 6 years and will take the lower swinging ,more passive games here anytime.I want to be the bully.Also factor what having your "arse" handed to you by a bunch of hyper raising, table slapping Asians,(im sorry but its true)who continuly try to outdraw one another as a test of their manhood does to your mental state day in and day out when your losing.I can honestly say Ive met many players who say they can take it but when the shit hits the fan day in and day out and the rent is due they crumble mentally.Youll see them,cursing the dealer or whomever in a perpetual state of tilt.Play in Las Vegas.
well fella i can tell you it is not only in LA i am in arizona and have encoutered the same thing you have alot of drawing asians you smile like they are the best player in the world when they call a atleast a 120 to hit a three outter i have had four losing sessions to this same play and i am glad to hear i am not the only one.I do have faith that it will brake them soon enough but it does hurt the bankroll every now and then good luck and just be patient it will turn around for a fact.if you are ever in arizona you will see that in 20/40 and 30/60 so don't come here short becuse you will drive home scracthing your head.
I was playing in a $30-$60 game earlier this evening. I was sitting in Seat #3 and Mason was in Seat #9.
On the first hand, Mason is in the small blind. #1 folds and #2 limps. I limp with the 9h9c. #5, #6, the button, and Mason all limp. There is $210 in the pot and seven players. The flop is: 6s6h2c. Mason leads out by betting $30. The big blind and #2 fold. I raise to $60 with my over pair. Mason might have a Six but he might have pocket Sevens or pocket Eights as well and perhaps other hands. Everyone folds to Mason who makes it $90. I call. There is $390 in the pot and two players. The turn is: Kd. Mason bets and I call. The river is: 8c. Mason bets and I call. Mason wins a $630 pot with 7s6d for trip Sixes.
On the second hand, I am in the small blind with the Jh3h. #7, #8, and Mason all limp. I toss in another $10 to see a flop with $140 already in the pot. There is $150 in the pot and five players. The flop is: JsJc4d. I check, planning to check-raise since with this large a field I am confident the flop will get bet. The big blind and #7 check. #8 is an aggressive player who bets $30. Now this player will bet almost anything in this situation since he is very aggressive. Mason knows this. Mason raises to $60. I re-raise to $90. Everyone folds to Mason who calls. There is $360 in the pot and two players. The turn is: 9h. I bet $60 with my trip Jacks but I mildly concerned that Mason may have the case Jack with a better kicker. Mason just calls. There is $480 in the pot. The river is: 7c. I now check. Mason bets $60 and I call. Mason wins a $600 pot having the 9d9c for Nines full on the turn beating my trip Jacks.
All comments welcome.
1st question : how does Mason think of you - does he know who you are and that you are the same guy who posts here?
1st hand Pre-flop - I would raise with 99 to one limper. Other than that, I would fold when the K hit on the turn once Mason bets again....because he's gotta be afraid of 77...or KJ or something like that, and he can't bet unless he's probably got you beat.
2nd hand on the flop - I would bet, as many people know that good players will often bet into a flop of pair plus low card...so you may get raised by a low pocket pair. I'm a bit surprised that Mason didn't raise on the turn, as it seems clear now that you have a J...and thus will call the turn raise and probably the river too.
I'll only comment on the first hand. I actually misread the flop and thought there were two spades on board. I probably would have checked the flop if I had realized that there were in reality three different suits. Ironically, because of this mistake and the hand that Jim held, I probably won a little more than I was suppose to.
Jim,Im not sure what you want to hear but he pounded you in 2 tough spots that you were caught in.No big deal,this is routine stuff.
Hand one: Jim - for $30 you could have prevented this and won at least a $150/$200 pot instead of losing $240 (8 times the $30 bet) ... *$400 mistake*
For just *one* more $30 bet by raising you would have knocked most of the players behind you (likely bought the button), especially knocked out Mason because there would not have been enough callers to justify his call. You shoud raise with 99 in this position against one limper.
However, if there were 3 or more limpers in front of you then just calling would be ok. Pocket nines is a hand that you had rather play heads-up instead of multiway.
Hand two: It's highly unlikely you could have won this hand under any circumstances. However I would have lead on the flop.
"However, if there were 3 or more limpers in front of you then just calling would be ok. Pocket nines is a hand that you had rather play heads-up instead of multiway."
When you ae in early position your raise won't necessarily get the pot heads-up. So, when this is the case, aren't you better off just limping since the main value of the hand is to flop a set?
you may not get it heads up, but you may get rid of some hands, like JT, QJ, KJ, AT (obviously depending on who holds them)...I like the raise.
If Jim had raised with pocket nines vs 1 limper and everyone else folds to you, you would fold also, right?
Even with 2 opponents plus a raiser to you with 76o in LB - you would still fold, right?
You're certainly a better player than I, but we all have our own styles. This particular time had I been playing Jim's hand I think I would have won the pot and you would have mucked preflop, isn't that very likely?
I agree with everything you say. When analyzing poker hands there is almost always a downside to whatever strategy you decide to follow. In this example, I just happen to have a certain hand and got a certain flop. If Jim would have known ahead of time that this was coming he certainly would have raised. But suppose he raised, got a couple of callers and three overcards flopped. Now he would be unhappy he raised. So the way to try to answer this is to attempt to decide what strategy is best in the long run. There is no question that some good players would play it exactly as you suggest and that I would have folded as you suggest. But keep in mind that this strategy also has it's pit falls.
First hand:
When Mason reraised you on the flop, you showed him no respect at all and got what you deserved. You can call his raise only for the off-chance you'll turn a set. If you've shown considerable strength (raising a bettor), then he knows you have something and he's not going to play back at you except for value.
Second hand:
Your kicker is no good. If someone has the case jack, you have a drawing hand (ie you don't have the winning hand), just as good as if you had a flush draw or something. While it turned out you read him correctly on the flop, I don't know how you can call his bet on the last card. The main hands you're trying to beat are AA, KK, QQ.
"When Mason reraised you on the flop, you showed him no respect at all and got what you deserved. You can call his raise only for the off-chance you'll turn a set. If you've shown considerable strength (raising a bettor), then he knows you have something and he's not going to play back at you except for value."
In HPFAP a play that we mention is to sometimes reraise a solid player when there is a pair on the flop. Now he might give you credit for three of a kind and fold on fourth street.
In the second hand, I find it puzzling that Mason called the flop for even one more bet. I can't think of too many hands you would check and then make it 3 bets with, that don't contain either a J or 44. He clearly had 2 outs. I guess there's the remote possibly you had an overpair in the sb...
Just the opposite. When I play I put a lot of effort into reading hands. Since the initial player was aggressive and would bet many hands, I know that Jim knew this, Thus he should know that I would raise with a fair number of hands, but more importantly, he should know that the initial bettor was likely to be very weak. So, why would he want to raise him out if he had three jacks.
Because of this, I thought that there was some chance my two nines were good. I probably would have paid off at the river with only the pair of nines. However, when I got lucky and the nine hit, I didn't want to raise and have Jim fold. Therefore, I only called on the turn, and planned to raise on the river if bet into, or bet if Jim checked.
I've never played with Jim, so you would know better than me. But, I will say that judging from his posts he doesn't seem like the type of player who would make a play at someone for three bets on the flop.
I forget the board. It was something like JJ69 with 4 suits. If ever there was a situation for not raising the turn with a boat, this might be it given that there are very few scare cards that might inhibit Jim from betting on the river. If, for example, the flop had 2 diamonds or something, I think it is imperative that you raise on the turn because a 3rd diamond on the river will almost surely cause Jim to check.
Another reason to just call the turn might be because you can fold the river if a Jack or a 6 should hit.
Thus, I can see why you may just want to call the turn. There are reasons for it. But I still believe that the reasons for raising are better:
1. It is difficult to get into a raising war on the river. The turn is where raising wars break out. That is, if you raised, Jim (or if not Jim certainly other more aggressive players) may reraise with AJ and would likely reraise with 66.
2. It provides cover for other situations when you might raise on the turn in position with the intention of checking down the river if called.
3. Even though the board did not have a 2 flush and therefore no scare flush card could come on the River to inhibit Jim from betting, he may still check if he is concerned about this kicker. This is of course what happened here. Had you raised the turn, I am nearly positive that Jim would have called the turn and probably paid off on the river. If he will not pay off the river in these situations, I believe he will be exposing himself to some intrepid steals by his opponents in the tough 30-60 Bellagio game.
4. Another reason to raise would be to just win the pot which can't be all that bad given its size. Don't forget that if you put Jim on a Jack, he has 7 outs.
On balance, I would raise the turn here and would certainly raise if the flop had a 2 flush.
I would appreciate your comments on the above.
First Hand: Jim I think that you should raise with 99. You have one limper and your hand is better than the limper most of the time. (Does he like to limp reraise) if so it's better to fold. You have a tight image, so this is a great spot to use it in. If it's three bets you play the hand accordingly.
2nd: Jim why would you check if there was and aggressive player who might raise? I think you should bet most of the time in this spot. So what if everyone folds.
Mr. Brier ,
The most important fact I think in playing the second hand is that Mason KNOWS that he can run you off a hand. You have to think about this every time you're in a hand with him. You have to let him know that your not going to fold. What's the solution?
From my count Mason is getting 11:1 to call, but he only has 2 outs to win. It is 24:1 to make his full house. Even with the implied odds(extracting 3 BB if the hits, 1 on each round + a raise on the round he hits) he is only getting 17:1. Am I missing something here? The 3 better has to either have a J or and overpair, so Mason has to hit in order to make the best hand, although if the 3 better has an overpair, Mason can make him lay it down.
Xavier, your point is an excellent one. Between the bettor and the re-raiser someone must have a Jack so a lower pocket pair is playing two outs. Furthermore, there will be cases where the lower pocket pocket pair will catch their two outer and lose anyway since there are redraws at the river. In this case any Four, Three, or the case Jack. I am surprised that no one else picked up on this.
I like your spot on the flop. Mason put $90 on the flop in effect with a 2 outer. He got there and you didn't hit your redraw. It's difficult to speculate what would have happened if you led on the flop.
Bruce
In all seriousness you should be ecstatic about hand 2. Mason may have entertained the possiblity that you had a set of 4's as well although having the J is much more likely. I don't know why he wouldn't raise on the expensive streets.
Tom and everyone else:
I have answered this question in one of my posts above. When I play, I not only try to figure out what the chances of my hand being best are, but I also try to figure out what my opponet's hand is and how different possible plays might affect his play. Sometimes I'm successful, and sometimes I'm not.
But Dreamer, Mason did not run me off either of these hands. Mason won because he showed down the best hand. That is exactly how you make money in full tabled limit hold-em. But you are missing a very important point on the second hand which Xavier has revealed to us. You may want to study his post below.
I don't understand why Mason should have laid down his pocket nines when you flopped trips, yet you were correct to play your nines when he flopped trips? Granted I like your 2 outer better, but I think 95% of us would pull off a card here to try and get lucky.
Winger there are vast differences between the two hands. In the second hand, it has to be quite clear that between the bettor and the re-raiser someone must have a Jack for trip Jacks. This would be the case 99% of the time. Now at the point where one makes the decision to take off a card there is $330 in the pot and it costs $30. These are pot odds of only 11:1. For a two outer here to be correct you need to get pots odds of about 22.5:1 and then survive 7 redraws (3 Treys, 3 Fours, and 1 Jack). About 18% of the time when the two outer arrives it gets sucked out at the river so overall the ultimate pot odds need to be about 27:1 to adjust for this. To pay $30 to continue under these circumstances would require an ultimate pot of over $800. Even if one or two more double bets get collected on the turn and river, the pot will never even approach anything close to this amount excluding the money you put in on the turn or river.
On the first hand, while trip Sixes are quite likely it is not nearly as clear when you have only two players in the pot at that point. Pocket Sevens or Eights are a distinct possibility. The other difference is that if a Nine shows up on the first hand, there is only one redraw to beat it (a Six) as opposed to seven in the first case.
With a flop of 6-6-2 and a 3 bet I think it's safe to assume a 6 in the SB. It's unlikely he would re-raise with 7s or 8s, what hand can he beat? I realize I'm beat and, despite the pot odds, I give him another small bet.
I think Mason made a bad call with his 9's, but I don't think it was much worse than your call, and I don't think he would have paid you off to the river had he missed.
1st hand was well played by all concerned but calling even 1/3 sb in sb with J4s or o is against my religion.
Your 20/1 dog to make a winning flush and even hitting the flop with JJ makes it a guessing game with your no kicker.
Jim-
There probably wasn't much you could do about the first hand.
On the second hand, though, your play seems curious. Consider that a) you're either way, way ahead or way, way behind, b) the pot is small, and c) there are no draws. Given this, I'm not sure why you wanted to check raise the flop, or why you re-raised on the flop when it was sixty to you, since you probably won't get any additional action unless you're beat.
In sum, your play on the flop seems to have the effect of insuring that you make as little as possible if you're ahead, and lose as much as possible if you're behind.
Well, GD if I just bet out with my trip Jacks I don't make much when everyone correctly folds. Like you say it is a small pot right now with only 5 bets in it. But if I check, I will frequently induce an aggressive player to bet a worse hand which is exactly what happened. Now when another player raises, I am happy to make it 3 bets and win the pot right there since I pick up a $240 pot instead of a $150 pot.
But the thing is, nobody has any real outs. Further, with five limpers there's a fair chance that someone's got a pocket underpair, which they'll be more than happy to raise with on the flop and perhaps lead bet with on the turn.
Put it this way-- you've got to show the hand down, and you're either way ahead or way behind. Either you've got three outs, or the other guys have two outs. Given this, plus the fact that the pot is small, you might as well see if you can get someone to bet your hand for you.
Since the only way you can make any money here is by finding someone with a pocket underpair, I'd lead bet the flop (which looks like a completely natural steal), then wait and see if someone raises. If they just call you've got problems... but if they raise, they likely have a hand like 88, 66 or something like AT. At this point you can just call, then decide on check raising the turn, or the river, or calling the turn and lead betting the river... whatever. But, you'll be able to keep someone dumping money in a pot in which they have very little equity. Further, when you lead bet the flop and show down trips, you'll make the other players think twice the next time the flop comes ragged and you come out firing.
Well, that is a good point that when you lead at the flop and showdown trips you make them think twice the next time you come out firing. This is exactly the way I normally play. However, I thought that it would be wise to vary my play and check since I was confident that the aggressive player to Mason's right would bet if he was checked to. Furthermore, if it was checked around no one would have called my bet anyway in all likelihood. Like you say if I am ahead given that board then giving out a free card cannot be too dangerous. On the other hand if I bet and get raised, I can call. In this game, players frequently fold when check-raised on the turn especially with an open pair on board so I am not sure that in balance we are talking about anything more than a fraction of a bet between the various scenarios especially when there is only one player involved.
This was one of the reasons I posted this problem because I was wondering about the merits of simply leading at the flop instead of check-raising or check-calling. I think you are right and simply betting my hand on the flop is the better play.
When your hand is medium strength and the pot is large this makes sense. But your hand was much stronger than medium strength. Furthermore. it is very doubtful that you can make it three bets on the flop and win it right there. This does sometimes happen on the turn when the bet is double size, but virtually never on the flop.
I guess you are right. It is highly unlikely that a scenario will unfold which allows me to make it 3 bets on the flop. Even if I check-raise on the flop I don't see anyone folding. Furthermore, if no one has the case Jack I should not want them to fold anyway given that board and the absence of any flush or straight draws. I was only thinking about the immediate situation and current betting round but I now think, based on what you and GD have stated, that betting the flop was the better play.
I am UTG in a very loose passive 20/40 game with QdQh....I raise. The button (very loose and passive player) calls, big blind calls.
Flop is Ts7s3d
BB checks, I bet, button raises, big blind folds...I call.
I know, almost for a fact that the button can not be raising for a free card with 2 spades. In order for him to raise, he must have a 10, and probably a big kicker. He hasn't raised all night on a semi-bluff ever...but only raised or bet when he had something solid. I think that this is correct, so I know that he will bet again on the turn. So I check, planning on check-raising.
The turn is a 2s - making the board Ts7s3d2s
I check, button bets, I checkraise, knowing full well he couldn't have two spades.
At this point he brings his cards up to chest level and starts mumbling something to himself, and then reluctanctly calls. At this point, I should have known that he has exactly a T and a higher kicker which is not a spade (because he would have called immediately if his kicker was a spade)...he wasn't the type to act when he had the flush.
River is a 5s.....I check, he bets...
I think about it for 15 seconds, and I don't put two and two together....and fold.
Afterwards, I realiezed that this was a stupid fold...becuase his kicker was a high kicker, and if it was a spade, his call would've been immediate.
Arg. The only good thing about this is that I was able to deduce all of this after the hand was over, and realized how my thinking was not as good as it should have been when I was in the hand.
At least I am learning.
Your probably right but his bets and actions are also consistent with flopping a set. His actions on your turn checkraise could be that he thought you hit your flush, thus cracking his set.
If he is a passive player, would he bet in this situation without a flush? I agree with the above post, he flopped a set, or he had the J/Q of spades. I don't know too many passive players who would bet into this board (esp. after getting check raised) without being able to beat your hand.
he is a passive player....a loose passive player....which means that he would have called without a doubt on the turn if he had a spade....but which also means that he may not have bet on the river without a spade (as you pointed out)...but basically what I am saying is that I may not be close to a favorite to win the hand, but certainly, the pot odds call for a call...and I'm just pissed at myself for not calling.
Doc,
This thread shows the importance of making your plays in the middle of the hand at about the same pace. This means you must sometimes pause when your play is automatic, and think quickly yet thouroughly when first to act (when acting later, you can start your thinking while the other guy is thinking).
In other words, the pace or manner of your bets should not give away your hand. If you describe the manner in which your opponent called your turn check raise AND he is not an actor, you were probably against the ten-good kicker without the suited card as you surmised.
BTW, I hope your check on the river was made without emotion and after a reasonable pause. Any show of disgust may have given him a read on you an encouraged him to bet without a spade.
Regards,
Rick
Doc:
I agree that the fold was bad. This might also be a good illustration of what goes wrong when we predict an opponent's hand too firmly. Although the usual case involves attributing a weaker hand to an opponent than the one he has, I suspect the breakdown in the thought process is similar.
We're always predicting the future action (meaning a second or two later) based on what we think our opponent can have, sometimes two alternative actions based on alternative possibilities. When also tend to visualize what can happen based on our read. What we often see amounts to a perfect replay of what we visualized seconds before. I think we get used to this without realizing it.
Sometimes our predictions are shattered when our opponent does the exact opposite of what we expect. For just a second, we lose our grip. Since we're a little flustered, time doesn't allow us to sort it out. In most cases, an unexpected show of strength makes us conclude that he might be bluffing or overplaying. In your case, you jumped to the seemingly obvious conclusion that because your prediction was "proven" wrong, your opponent must have the flush. You were also probably thrown off by your logic for not betting on the end, which had nothing to do with why he might bet.
When the sharply unexpected happens, we'd do better to call "time" and work it out until we're satisfied that we know where we stand, or until the rest of the table makes us do something. ;-)
$10-$20:
I opened raised in middle position with Kc Kh. I had only been in this game about an hour, but a player who I could tell was solid called 2 cold in late position (LP). The BB called. 3-way.
The flop came Td,7d,5s. BB checked, I bet, LP raised, BB called, I re-raised, LP capped, BB called. Had I been in this game any longer, I would've had a better line on LP's play. But at this point, I wasn't sure he may not play a 2 overcard diamond draw in a similar fashion. I thought diamonds might be a possibility. If not, I was surely beat by a set. I called.
The turn was a 4c. BB checked, I bet. If LP raised now, I would be pretty confident of a set. LP raised, BB called and I folded figuring I had 2 outs. The river was a Ks. BB checked, LP bet, BB folded. LP showed 77 for a set.
The good news is that I read LP correctly for a set and folded with only 2 outs. The bad news is that I did still have 2 outs and got there on the river. Should I have checked my overpair and called the turn even though I was pretty darn sure I was beat? Or did I play correctly, i.e- bet to make sure I was beat and fold with only 2 likely outs? If I check/call the turn, don't I have to also call the river in that big of a pot even though I'm pretty sure to be beat? This will cost me 1 more big bet in most cases, but on the other hand, I'm there on the river for those times I hit my 2 outs. I'd appreciate all comments. Thanks.
Dr. Trey
I had copied your name to paste it in a response I was going to make to your post of Jim's $30-$60 hand with Mason Malmuth. I forgot it was still in my clipboard and I thought I was pasting my own name to my post.
I didn't mean to impersonate you. I'm sure you would have played KK a lot better than I did... Sorry again.
Kevin
Since LP didn't raise with a big A suited (AK AQ) I would have have a hard time putting this guy on a nut flush draw - which is probably the only way he caps the flop on the come - so my thought process would put him on a set even top 2 pair is a real distant posibility since you think he is solid.
So I eigther put him on a set, or big pair AA KK or QQ he is trying to trap with since you are the only one in before he acts pre flop.
I hate this position but I have to make the turn with a check call plan on the same on the river. You probably played better than I would have a lot would have to do with how I read LP as a player.
Thanks for responding Rounder-
You wrote:
"Since LP didn't raise with a big A suited (AK AQ) I would have have a hard time putting this guy on a nut flush draw - which is probably the only way he caps the flop on the come - so my thought process would put him on a set even top 2 pair is a real distant posibility since you think he is solid."
I assume you meant since LP didn't RE-RAISE pre-flop with a big A suited, since I made the first pre-flop raise...
You are correct that any 2-pair is extremely remote for this player. This only leaves an over pair, set, or a nut diamond draw which in hindsight (after becoming more familiar with his play), was not likely. I too, hated this position. I hated the river card even more! Thanks again Rounder.
Kevin
Most solid players don't cold call raises with medium pocket pairs in late position when they are the first to enter the pot.
Your read was correct. The decision between calling and folding especially factoring in implied odds is probably very close. Myself personally and I don't claim to be an expert, I would call if raised. If I don't improve on the river and facing a bet I may fold. Skillful players in your opponents situation will raise on the turn with the intention of checking on the river without improvement. I see that play quite frequently so I will often call raises on the turns with big pocket pairs,.etc.
Bruce
Kevin,
Just concentrating on your analysis.
You only played with LP for an hour. You could have misjudged him or he may be changing up. He could have a hand like 89s, 75s, or A5s and be playing this particular hand loosely.
I think it wrong to so rigidly put a player on a hand and not apply bayesian analysis. If I somehow was in there with 45d, 34d or A4d I may have played the turn the same way. What are his chances of a set 80%? 90%?
I would never have been so sure of a set and not agressive play. He may even "know" that he could knock you off your overpair.
As far as you outs if you saw his cards and he has a set, I wouldn't consider the Kd a clean out with the BB calling. That leaves only one card in the deck for a win.
Otherwise good read and good fold.
Hope i'm never drawing dead,
albert
Kevin,
I haven't looked at the other responses yet. Your preflop and flop play along with your lead bet on the turn is my play so I have no comment there.
Note that you had another problem besides LP possibly having a set. The big blind probably had a draw, and it was most likely the diamond draw (98 is the other possibility, but no where near as likely). This means that if LP has a set, you really only have one out, not two.
But did LP have a set? What pairs do fairly solid players call a solid middle position raise preflop? With TT they usually make it three bets. Many would fold 55 and 77 would be borderline. Yet a cold call with big diamonds such as AK, AQ, KQ, AJ, and maybe KJ or QJ is possible (although I wouldn’t call a solid middle raise with KJ or QJ and would usually reraise with the AK and AQ of diamonds). He could also cold call with JJ and maybe QQ although most tend to three bet it.
In poker battle, you have to be damn sure that LP would not keep the heat on with big diamond overcards or even a medium overpair to the board. Tough, aggressive players may fire that extra turn raise here knowing it will slow down most opponents. And if he has big diamonds, it is far less likely that they will hit since the big blind probably has them.
After your turn bet, the raise by LP and the call by BB, you are looking at 15 big bets. I would have enough doubt to make the call here unless LP is not capable of the tough turn raise without the set. Then I would look at the king of spades as the only clean out and fold.
If I did call the turn and a diamond came on the river, I would fold to BB’s bet. But if BB checked (maybe he had the 98), I would bet! Now LP may lay down a set often enough to make this hand a BINGO for you.
Regards,
Rick
Rick:
Excellent, well thought out analysis! I guess that's why I post these hands here. You covered just about every angle and provided much to think about. Thanks.
Kevin
Rick,
Well said except the last part about betting the river if a Diamond comes in the hopes that the dude with the set lays it down.
IME, this play can only be made against a few players that have a history of amking big laydowns (and showing them). 99% of the time, you will be called down.
That said, I would bet if I felt that I would have to call my opponent's bet if I checked. A check is good only if you are going to fold to a bet. The only advantage of a check is that the other guy might do the same and you therefore save the bet that you may be throwing away on a hopeless bluff (except as against the special type of player I speak of above).
Thanks to everyone for some excellent feedback on this hand. Each post covered an important point. I guess the bottom line is that my fold was Ok. Rounder was correct that I was in dire straights here and knew it.
My post contained a typo. When the BB called the turn raise, I gave myself 1 (not 2) outs, as I figured the Kd was not a clean out. I guess the moral here is that you've got to know your players which unfortunately, I did not have the luxury of since I was playing with unfamiliar players. I was able to ascertain that LP was a solid player, i.e- he was aggressive enough to raise the flop with an overpair or ATs. But he also seemed a bit conservative, i.e- it was unlikely he would cap the flop and raise the turn on a draw. (his thinking would've been: If I'm a solid player, what could I be 3-betting the flop with that isn't at least an overpair? Although he might not realize that I may have 3-bet myself with a nut diamond draw...)
So in the end, I folded when I was pretty sure I was beat with few outs. Since this is when I usually like to fold, I guess I played it Ok. Thanks again.
Kevin
I know some people are tired of pre-flop questions, but...
I was playing 4-handed 8-16 with two maniacs to my left and one solid player to my right. Almost every time it was my big blind, maniac #1 straddled and maniac #2 restraddled. Most of the time the solid player folded his small blind and it was 16 to me, and I'm up against two random hands. This went on for hours.
What hands do I play preflop? Any pair? Any two big cards? Any ace?
(Note: the maniacal play usually continued on the flop and beyond: bluffing was next to impossible, and with these guys bottom pair was worth a cap on the flop)
Crash,
You are going to have some discomfort if 8/16 is as big as you go but this is a tremendously profitable situation. But this game does have some problems.
First, I like your position with the solid player on your right! You want to be in hands without the solid player laying traps, so stay out of his pots without real strength.
If you wait for really big hands, you will be the big favorite and reduce swings but the maniacs will probably stop straddling. So you have to gamble with them but not too much. With two opponents I would play all pairs six and up, all suited aces, offsuit aces down to about A7, KT offsuit and better, K9 suited and better, and QJ offsuit or QT suited. With your pairs and ace high hands and to a lesser extent king high hands, be prepared to go to the river. With some of the other hands you need to pair up.
Regards,
Rick
One thing that occurs to me is that you are in an ideal position because you usually have to give up the big blind anyway. Here when you play it with solid hands you might be playing a session with positive ev from the BB. Not very often that happens. Patience pays.
Move to the left of the maniacs. That way you will have the good player and 2 maniacs directly to your right. When they straddle raise with any 2 big cards UTG. Isolate the two maniacs whenever you are in a pot together. If they bet, you raise if you have any chance of winning the pot. If your opponents are astute enough to realize what you are doing and re-raise you then you have to stop.
Last night in a tight 20-40 game the player to my right would raise 90% of the time if he was first one in and it was late position so I reraised him with any ace high, face-face, or pocket pair 6's and higher. My opponents didn't catch on so I was consistenly getting the blinds and also beating the original raiser who I have position on.
Rick N. (see his post) actually said I had a good position in this situation: I could see if the solid player was playing, if he did, I would be able to dump my marginal hands. If I sit to the left of the maniacs, I have to act before the solid player.
I agree crash, don't move. I think Xavier was thinking this was a full game.
ignore my advice...I was thinking full game.
My play of this hand caused enough whining from the player I beat (EP), that I thought I would post this to set me straight. Ironically, I think I may have indeed made a poor play, but not in the same spot(s) as EP seemed to think.
I'll set this up by giving my read on EP as a player who played much too loose pre-flop, but who also seemed to play very well after the flop.
EP limped in early. It was folded to me 2 off the button and I raised with the Ac 8c.
Question #1- Is this a terrible play given my read on EP and the fact that the 2 remaining players behind me were tight but not too tough?
The BB and EP called. The flop was Kd,8s,2c. BB checked, EP bet, and I raised my 2nd pair-best kicker/runner-runner nut flush draw, BB called, EP called.
Question #2- I didn't raise out of pride for my 2nd pair. But rather because of my show of strength pre-flop, I thought it might buy me a needed free card on the turn. Was this a terrible play?
The turn was 8d. They both checked, I bet, they both called. The river was 2c. BB checked, EP bet, (this is where I thought I may have misplayed) I just called, BB folded and my 3 eights won over EP's AK! [I had sucked out on the turn, but never had (nor was given) a clue how strong he was!]
Obviously, I should have raised the river. I thought that if EP was just taking a shot and I raised, I may not make any more $$$ if they both fold. On the other hand, my just calling increases the chances for an overcall from the BB. Also, if EP was playing an obscure hand strangely such as KK or K8s, I don't want to lose 3 bets.
Question #3- How terrible was my non-raise here? Thanks for any responses.
Kevin
First of all, the river card probably wasn't the 2c since it was flopped.
If it were me I probably would not raise pre-flop. The raise is to give me a free card on the flop. Your hand isn't strong to take on an Ace flopped, someone's bound to have you out-kicked. You're drawing all the way. Essentially, you're looking for the flush or some other help.
If you miss the flop and there's a bet into you you have to figure you're already beat. I would not have raised, but make a crying call to see the turn and release the hand if I don't get an 8 or the nut club draw. I guess your raise is to try and make the BB muck to get heads up? I don't think that was the correct play. If I were EP I would have popped you again to show I had top pair/top kick. The BB doesn't move anywhere and you're lucky EP doesn't re-raise. Just curious, what would you do if the EP re-raised?
You catch your miracle 8 and I'm surprised that EP doesn't bet again, but I guess he was timid of your 2 raises which must be giving him signs that you have AA. The turn pretty much played itself.
The river was essentially a blank and wouldn't help even if he had KK since the 8's made him a better full house. I think a raise was definitely in order. If you perceived his bets as weak you should have raised without another thought.
This is just my thoughts and opinions of how I would have played. I'm taking a guess that this is 10-20?
Stephen
First I don't like your raise with A-8 2 off the buttton. There are still 4 hands not heard from, and if it's common knowledge that you raise with A-8, you'll find yourself getting re-raised a lot.
Post flop, I think you played great. It's either raise or dump, and given your description of EP I think a raise may win you an extra pot or two.
Winger
Winger:
Thanks for your comments. I'm a little unclear on your first paragraph however.
You wrote:
"First I don't like your raise with A-8 2 off the buttton. There are still 4 hands not heard from, and if it's common knowledge that you raise with A-8, you'll find yourself getting re-raised a lot."
I'm not sure of your point here. I also raise in this spot with my strongest hands. When this is the case, I can't mind getting re-raised now. Can I? I also mentioned that the 2 remaining players were tight but not tough. This means they may fold a multitude of better hands, yet will not extract the maximum when having me beat. I tend to like and even look for these situations. It's one of the reasons I took this seat. Do you think I'm setting myself up to get crushed? If even one of the remaining players is tough (i.e.- plays better than I do) I will usually completely defer to your reasoning. Thanks.
Kevin
I understand what you're saying about the 2 players sitting behind you. If they're not the kind of players who will re-raise you without a huge hand, I don't mind your raise so much. However there are a couple of regulars in my game who raise with these hands a lot and I make a point of 3 betting them as much as possible. Yes, I do run into 'real' hands once in a while, but more often I win the pot on the flop. If your game is passive, great. What would you have done with this hand if someone had 3 bet you then came out betting on the flop?
Also, I think your call on the river is fine. With a player still to act you may get an additional bet anyways. A raise may have gone uncalled (although in hindsight A-K would probaly call a raise).
WInger
I'm not sure passive would be the best way to describe my game. Although, I'm far from being a maniac. If someone 3-bet behind me and plays in a manner you describe (meaning they are trying to punish me by 3-betting pre-flop without strong enough hands themselves), I may check/raise this type of player with 2nd pair. If he's real aggressive without a hand, I may rope-a-dope a bit. Check/call the flop and check/raise the turn when the 8 hits. Or maybe check/call, check/call then check/raise the river. If I think he may have a king and he's very aggressive, I'd probably lead the turn hoping to make it 3 bets.
My point is, I realize that A8s is not a premium hand. Had a tight player limped in, I probably throw it away pre-flop. I was just trying to take advantage of what I thought may be a profitable situation. I obviously had control over this player since he did not even re-raise the flop with top pair/best kicker. Had there been a legitimate 3-bet behind me, I felt my hand was also very easy to get away from IMHO. This is what I consider tight/aggressive play. Although I might be altogether wrong on this. Take care.
Kevin
One other thought:
I remember a time when I found myself sitting to the immediate left of one of the top players in the game (at least in my area). He was relentless in isolating any time a weak player limped in. This became quite frustrating for me as he was constantly taking me off of very playable and otherwise profitable hands. I knew full well what he was doing and finaly I had enough. I started 3-betting in order to punish him or at least slow him down. But it quickly became apparent that I had overlooked one important factor... I could not outplay him after the flop! He was just too good of a player and my plan backfired. So it was back to mucking for me.
My point is, you have to be very careful when 3-betting someone even when you know he is isolating and may not have that strong of a hand. This is especially true if he happens to play better than you! That's my take anyway. Take care Winger.
Kevin
Kev,
Why not just call his 2 bets and play the flop.
Because that would've been too simple? Seriously, that's a good suggestion and certainly has merit. Quite honestly, that play didn't exist in my book back then. I had it ingrained to either 3-bet or fold in those situations. Now, even though it's still rare, there are more situations where I will flat call a raise pre-flop. This would've had the same effect of foiling his strategy. Having a 3rd player in the hand even for 2 bets, would've complicated things for him a little.
btw- Did you know that Aurora is starting a $15-$30 feature game on Fridays at 10:00am? It's not that I relish having you in the game, but I would like to see this game take off. I think their room might be in trouble. If this $15-$30 doesn't go, I know I for one, will have to make the move to Harrah's. Take care Rounder.
Kevin
Kev,
I'm planning on going up to Mt Pleasant more - it is a REAL casino and it is what I am used to playing in.
I'd like to get up a bunch of guys who want to commute up there on a weekly basis. Also their tournaments are great they have one on Sunday $50 buy in and one $30 rebuy TOC qualified. Their last Fri of the month $120 freeze out is also a good one with a paid entry and $7K for the winner.
Mike
Where is Mt. Pleasant? I am in the Chicagoland area also. Never heard of it. Do they have no-limit HE tournaments? What limits do they spread for HE?
It's about an hour north of Lansing.
They spread 4/8 to 30/60 I understand there is a big PL game spread too but not to often. Sunday they have a NL HE $50 buy in and ONE $30 rebuy.
It's about an hour north of Lansing.
They spread 4/8 to 30/60 I understand there is a big PL game spread too but not to often. Sunday they have a NL HE $50 buy in and ONE $30 rebuy.
Thanks for the info. How far is the drive from Chicago?
About 4 hours.
Yes Stephen, it was $10-$20. Oviously, it was not the 2c on the river (sorry). You are absolutely correct about raising the river. I saw that hands were being played in some stange fashions, but this should not have had a bearing on my decision to not raise the river. This was most definitely a mistake on my part. Your other points are good as well.
As to what I would have done had he re-raised? Well, had he raised pre-flop, I don't play a piece of crap like A8s, so that's a mute point. Had I not raised pre-flop, I most likely fold the flop for 3 bets. But since I did raise, that would've put 11 bets in the pot after he re-raises, so I take one off. The fact is, there was just no way for him to win this hand after limping pre-flop. I thought THIS was a terrible play. I think there are certain games where limping w/AKo is Ok, (very tough or very loose) but this was not one of them. Thanks for your response.
Kevin
I would play the hand the same way BTF. Either come in with a raise or pass. Raising on the flop and your turn bet is fine. Good poker raising on the flop. I think you missed a bet on the river by not raising. I think overall you played the hand well, except for not raising on the river. Your opponent can blame himself for not raising BTF. Another bad example of fancy play syndrome.
Bruce
I think the non-raise was a good play. EP was playing like he had KQ or KJ. Most solid players won't bet into you on the river unless they are willing to reraise or muck when raised. Given the way the hand has played out you are right to assume that he will muck if you raise. Given that I know he has AK I think it is a bad play to bet the river. It is very unlikely that he has the best hand, but he cant really muck with AK in the situation because you could have the exact same hand. I think he should have checked and called. If EP had you beat then you would have been check-raised on the turn.
On the other hand, the BB has been calling all the way down with no possible draw. He calls 2 bets cold on the flop and then calls a bet on the turn. Seems to me like he was a bad player with a weak king. Like KJ or something. Given the way that the BB has played, it seemed likely that he would call on the river. In addition, the BB could be slowplaying a monster like KK or 22.
Given the information you had, I think the call was correct. It just didn't turn out the be the best play in retrospect.
Kevin:
#1: I like your play preflop. Players such as you describe behind you (tight, but not tough) can be picked on a little here. They will most likely fold to your raise. If not, your hand is still easy to get away from.
Isolating a player (EP) whom you have already defined as playing loose preflop is a strong play. A8s is obviously not a premium starting hand, but this situation does present itself as an optimum time for variance in play.
#2: I think the raise on the turn is necessary. You have put yourself in this position from your preflop action. You showed strength preflop, this is an opportune moment for a semi-bluff raise. You can take the free card if no improvement comes on the turn. At this point in the hand, I would have to put EP on a hand such as KQ, betting for information. I would be concerned about the BB here. If he can call two cold, what might he have?
They both check the turn, you bet, they call. If they had anything that could beat you at this point, you would have heard from them here. K8, KK, 22 would all most likely check-raise here. This thought process helps lead to your 3rd question.
#3: I would definitely raise the river. I understand the thought that raising may cause both players to fold, while calling may entice the BB to call, gaining an extra bet.
However, a thought that I see few players consider is how there actions in a current hand might affect the profitability of a future hand. By raising, you are giving yourself the opportunity to not show your hand. This may be invaluable later, and help maintain a tight, aggressive image that you need at a table. It may not get the extra 20 you hope from the BB, but keeping a little mystery in the minds of your opponents can increase the liklihood that later you are called down when they shouldn't be calling. There is also the chance that you will still be called by EP, thereby losing nothing. I think you need to raise the river. Hope this helps.
Matt
No problem with the way you played the hand - I may have played it just the way you did (except max out on the river) - BUT I think you have classified EP wrongly. He seems like a weak/tight/passive the way he played this hand.
I had just sat down a few minutes earlier and did not have any line on my main adversary in this hand. He was UTG and limped, a few others called, I called on the button with 66, SB folded, BB checked the option. The flop came 886, BB checked, UTG bet, all folded to me. I raised, BB folded, UTG called, leaving us heads- up. Turn was a deuce, UTG showed me one of his cards, an 8, and bet. In the heat of the moment, I called and we both checked the river when an apparent blank fell. However, thinking about the hand later, I think I prob- ably didn't play it that well. Specifically, I think I probably should have raised on the turn to make him pay to draw out on me, and then gone into check-calling mode if reraised. Any comments?
What hands would he possibly play UTG? It is tough because you just came in the game, but what could he have? 88, A8s, and 98s come to mind. I can't see him playing 86 UTG. If he had a FH he probably would have check-raised you on the turn. Then again this is 10-20 so who knows. I would have raised on the turn though. If you get reraised then you can muck it.
There's no question about what you should have done. Raise the turn, if he re-raises just call him down. If he doesn't bet the river, you bet.
Stephen
He announced three eights, I turned over my FH, and he mucked. I never did see his second card. I was afraid of 88 or 86, and rather than try to determine the like- lihood of him having one of those I got caught up try- ing to figure out the significanceof him showing me one card. In retrospect, it's unlikely he would have played 86 UTG, but 88 is possible. I don't know if he would have bet out on the flop with quads, but he did bet his trips so maybe he would have. I guess my real question is how to interpret the unusual play of showing me one of his cards.
You should h
Seanave bet the turn for sure... the signifigance of his showing you the 8 is that he thinks you have an 8 and he is scared that his kicker is no good. He is showing you the 8 to slow you down so he can get to the river cheaply with a hand he thinks might be no good.
HE certainly does not have quads... if he did he would never show you the 8 because he would know his hand was good and would want to make maximum profit from it... if he has quads and he shows you an 8 he has to figure you will fold since you then could not have the case 8...
Loose 8-16 game, 10 handed, I am seen as tight.
I'm in middle position, it's folded to me. I raise with QdJd. All fold to button, who calls. Big blind, who is super-loose, calls. Button is loose but plays fairly well post-flop.
Flop: 2d7dTs. BB checks, I bet, button calls, BB folds (!).
Turn: 3c. I bet, button calls.
Questions:
1. Should I have continued the semi-bluff on the turn? I know HPFAP says to give up many semi-bluffs on the turn, but this is heads-up and I felt I should keep firing. The button would call my pre-flop raise, with, say, JTs, so I'm not sure if he has a T. He could also have overcards, eg KQ.
2. If I bet the turn and miss on the river (no diamond, Q, or J), how often do I fire again? For example, should I bet every time an A or K comes out? What about a low blank?
Betting the turn is clear. You were the pre-flop raiser and have shown all the strength with just your lone opponent calling. By betting here he will frequently fold on the expensive street. If he calls you have as many as 15 outs with any Diamond, Queen, or Jack.
If a blank comes on the river you don't have a hand that can survive a showdown. If an Ace or King comes you must definitely bet since you have represented a strong hand all along and you have to hope your opponent will fold. If any other blank comes, whether or not you bet depends upon your opponent. There is just no clear answer.
I wonder if this is an example were you would only bet if you DONT hit one of your cards. If a blank comes then a bet is probably your only way to win. If a diamond, queen or jack comes you have made a hand, but so may have your opponent. What was he calling with? Maybe a higher diamond draw, maybe overcards. If you hit and make a hand and he doesn't, he wont call your bet anyway and if you hit and he hits you may be beat. The only thing he could have that is safe when you bet is something like JT.
Plus if you hit and check it might induce a bluff which you call and win.
Just to clarify, I'm talking about betting or checking on the river.
Planet Poker 15-30.
Player 3rd to act open raises. He has been in the game for about 20 minutes and this is the first hand he has played. Thus, I have to consider his raise to be a pretty legitimate one particularly given his early to middle position.
I have TT in the cut-off seat. I harken back to Jim's advice not to raise with TT in this type of situation. I say to myself "you know, that Brier guy sure knows what he is talking about. I should start listening to him more. Also, this guy who just raised hasn't played a hand in 20 minutes. He has a real hand. I should just call and see what the flop brings".
...I then click the raise button...sorry Jim, it's tough to teach an old dog new tricks:)
Sadly, the bb calls 2 bets cold and the other fellow caps it. I call and don't like my situation too much.
Pot size: $190
Flop: 552 of various suits.
Capper bets. I call with the intention of folding on the turn if capper fires again or if bb decides to get frisky on the flop.
BB folds.
Pot size: $220
Turn: Ace
Cappers bets. I put capper on a big pair (as opposed to AK given his cap bet out of position preflop). When he capped preflop, I figured him for KK or AA with a slight chance of QQ or JJ.
Now, the Ace on the turn changed things. It is 3 times more likely that he has KK as opposed to AA. As well, there is still some chance that he has JJ or QQ. Plus, the fact that this guy hadn't played a hand yet told me that he might be the type to lay down KK or worse particularly given that my 3 bet preflop and mere call on the flop was consistent with me holding AK.
I decide to raise.
I don't know if it was a good play. It worked here. He folded.
But my question is this:
Do you guys anticipate these moves before they present themselves. That is, if you were to conclude that raising the turn here was a good move, would you call the flop bet on the footing that you will raise the turn if you hit a Ten or an Ace. In other words, do you think about what you are going to do on the turn depending on what comes off *while* you are playing the flop.
If so, can you provide some other examples. It might provoke some interesting discussion.
"It is 3 times more likely that he has KK as opposed to AA."
Of course, that should read "it is twice as likely..."
skp:
Yes. Yes. and absolutely! Well played! (I think). I do not consider myself a top player, but there's little doubt in my mind this is one of the things it takes to become one. An ability to quickly assess situations and determine how to act and react as the hand progresses.
I call these phantom outs. (I apologize if I stole this term, but I haven't seen too much about this subject in print and I lack a better name for them). I think these situations come up frequently especially in hold'em. In hindsight, it is now obvious that you had many more than 2 meager outs if he held KK,QQ,JJ. In fact, if he held JJ, you may have had as many as 14 outs!
Now I also think you have to be VERY careful too. It's just that these outs sometimes exist and I think top players are always conscious of their possible existence. It's funny you posted this now because I was going to post on this subject soon. You asked for an example. Here is the one I was going to use:
A tight but predictable player limps in early position. A late position player also limps. You check your option in the BB with Ah,7h. The flop comes Th,6h,3s. You bet and get raised by the early position player. Remember he is tight but predictable. This means it is unlikely he holds 66 or 33, etc. If he holds a ten, it is most likely ATs or maybe JTs. The question is, how many outs do you have on the turn and how best to win? I submit that you should certainly have more than the 9 heart outs. And if a K or Q comes on the turn and you check and he bets, you should seriously consider raising! Does anyone/everyone disagree with this?
Kevin
Of course my example above provides that the late position player folded for the raise. Also I think it would probably be very wrong to make this play against any player who is not likely to fold many hands...
Kevin, see Gd's post.
I like his play more than yours. The problem with your play is that there is no compelling reason for your opponent to believe that the King hit you. In GD's play (and my play described in my reading hands essay, there is reason for the enemy to belive that the flush hit GD and me respectively).
I suppose your play has a greater chance of working if you are known to checkraise if in fact you do hold just a King here. But I suspect that you would probably bet out rather than checkraise if a King hit and made your hand here. Your opponent probably knows that.
skp:
Maybe this is a matter of my not being very familiar with advanced play. (both because I myself am not that advanced and I don't normaly play with advanced high limit players). I have read many of your posts and you seem to be very familiar with level of play, so maybe you can help me out with this.
So your saying in my example, if a BB who bets out in an unraised pot (meaning he can have any 2 cards), gets raised, and calls this raise, then check raises the turn when say a King falls, you would be correct to call this check/raise with a hand like Ac Ts on a board of Th,6h,3s,Kc? I'll believe it if you say so. But I would normaly give up on my hand thinking that the BB could have anything in this spot from a freak 2-pair to a set. Do you think this is too weak/tight for tough games? Thanks.
Kevin
Actually, I am the wrong guy to ask about strategy in tough games. Thankfully, the games that I play in are anything but tough. Having said that, here are my thoughts.
There is a fine line between creative but sound play and fancy play syndrome. The opportunity to semi-bluff checkraise that you are talking about will occur several times in a given session. If you start doing that too often, you will be "found out". You may get away with it the first couple of times that you try it but about the third time, I am going to look you up to see what the heck you are doing and to ensure that the other players do not start getting any ideas that they can just powerplay me out of hands. Once I see that you are capable of pulling thse "moves", I will then adjust my play accordingly i.e. I will take your raises too seriously.
The problem with your play is that it is not very convincing. You are likely going to have to show me a set. Poker decisions have to be made on the strength of what you think your opponent has, what he thinks you have and what he thinks you think he has i.e. the 3 levels of thinking that S&M talk about. When you checkraise the turn, I am not likely to put you on a King i.e. why did you bet the flop, why didn't you bet the turn. I am likely to put you on a set or a semi-bluff raise. Since I have position, I may well 3 bet you here with the intention of folding if you cap or checking down the river if you call.
Contrast this to the TT hand that started this thread. I 3 bet preflop and just aclled the flop. So far, my paly is entirely consistent with me holding AK. Thus, my raise in the turn when the Ace hits looks natural. As well, I could be fairly certain that my opponent did not have AK as he capped preflop when out of position. In your hand, you can't be very vertain that the King did not give your opponent two pair.
Please excuse the typos, spelling errors etc above. I inadvertently hit the "post message" button before doing any spellchecks.
I can think of a couple examples of this.
If I'm in late position and bet mid pair on the flop, then get check raised, I'll often raise the turn if a flush card comes and I'm playing against someone who will lay down. This doesn't happen very often, but I ran into this situation quite a bit playing with the rocks at Soaring Eagle in Michigan. Most players won't check raise with a draw, and I've found that enough guys will lay down on the turn when I pull this move. Further, if the check raiser is fairly aware (and I only pull this move against aware players), I know there's a chance that he check raised me with mid pair or worse, figuring my bet was simply a steal play.
Overall, I think there's a lot of merit to just calling (as you did) on the flop, then figuring out your move on the turn. Particularly if the pot is short handed. If nothing else, if gives you a chance to represent a wider range of hands, and also has the pleasant advantage of putting less of your own money in the pot.
Good example, GD.
I have a similar example in my "reading hands" essay on this site only there I was betting middle pair and got raised by an "aware" player to my immediate left in a multiway field. In most cases, you can rule out a flush draw for the raiser as he would not want to raise and limit the field. In that scenario, I would often call on the flop with the intention of (a) either betting or checkraising if I improve or (b) checkraising if the flush card comes in. IMO, betting out when the flush card comes in is nowhere near as effective a bluff as checkraising.
BTW, when that essay was first put out, I recall that you were somewhat critical of this particular play. May I dare suggest that you have changed your mind on this?
Maybe a little.. :)
But, also notethat in my example I've got position, whereas in your example I don't. By having position I should have the opportunity to check down the river if he calls the turn, while I might not have that chance if he's last to act and I check the river.
I'd forgotten that you posted that in the 'reading hands' essay. Sorry for ripping off your ideas and acting like they're mine... feel free to cane me next time I come to Vancouver :)
...BTW, where the heck are you these days anyway. Having read various posts over time, my impression is that you are in Colorado or Michigan or somewhere in between.
You're pretty much right on.
My last 12 months (in a nutshell).
July of '99: Shon (my fiancee) and I move from Co. to Mi., since I am almost finished with my Masters work. After we move to Mi. I move BACK to Co. for four months to finish up one more class.
Dec of '99: I move back to Mi with about 90% of a M.A. completed and no job prospects. I start playing cards up at the Soaring Eagle to pay the rent, and continue taking beginning French, as I need to years of a foreign language to get my degree.
April of '00- I head back to Co. with the intentions of running a 3-6 HE game with my friend Paul in one of Denver's subterranian card rooms. This lasts for about two months, before I get involved in a power struggle with the Napoleonic game runners who manage the 10-20 game in said card room. I leave town, and Paul (my friend) abandons the game
You're pretty much right on.
My last 12 months (in a nutshell).
July of '99: Shon (my fiancee) and I move from Co. to Mi., since I am almost finished with my Masters work. After we move to Mi. I move BACK to Co. for four months to finish up one more class.
Dec of '99: I move back to Mi with about 90% of a M.A. completed and no job prospects. I start playing cards up at the Soaring Eagle to pay the rent, and continue taking beginning French, as I need to years of a foreign language to get my degree.
April of '00- I head back to Co. with the intentions of running a 3-6 HE game with my friend Paul in one of Denver's subterranian card rooms. This lasts for about two months, before I get involved in a power struggle with the Napoleonic game runners who manage the 10-20 game in said card room. I leave town, and Paul (my friend) abandons the game completely.
June of 00- I come back to Mi., decide I want to buy a house, and go back into roofing so I can show some income to my loan officer. Currently I am staying away from HE, although I do dabble occasionally in the 3-6 game at Paradise just for fun (handle: GeeDee).
But if you check/raise when the flush card comes and get called, how can you be sure of what called you? i.e.- a legitimate hand or just the A or K of that suit or both? This puts you in a precarious situation on the river since you are first to act. I'd imagine you'd have to bet the river regardless, hoping to fold out a better hand even though you may own the best hand. And then, the only hand that calls you is one that beats you. I'm not being critical, just trying to understand. Maybe I should look up this essay in the archives. When did you post it?
Kevin
Yes. Given the size of the pot, I generally would have to bet the river no matter what. This problem is addressed in the essay.
To find the essay, click "essays" on your left and go to guest essays.
8/16 at the Bellagio. Typical fairly loose, fairly passive game. Only one other reasonable player in the game.
I'm UTG with AhKs, I raise, everyone folds to the other decent player in the game who makes it $24. (From previous times playing with him he'll only do this with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and AK. Everyone folds to me, I call.
Flop comes A62 rainbow. I check, he checks, turn is a K I check he bets i call, river is a 3 I check and call. He turns over QQ.
Comments.
Methinks you give this man too much respect. You ought to be betting and raising a lot more here.
Even on the turn, the chances of your opponent having a better hand are slim:
AA - 1 combo
KK- 3 combos
AK- 4 combos
QQ- 6 combos
JJ- 6 combos
And since he checked the flop, you can essentially rule out AK (not strong enough a flop for him to slowplay).
That said, the check on the turn may be ok if you think he will fold to a bet but will bet if you check. However, once he bets, I would checkraise here. Having failed to checkraise the turn, I would at least bet the river. I am surprised that this fella checks the flop but then bets the river when there are 2 overcards to his QQ.
Although you probably had some logical reasons to play it the way you did, the others when they see you play this way are going to think that you are a softie. Not a good image to have in any limit HE game.
I like this play.
In many ways, you're up against the same situation as Jim in his second hand against Mason (the one where he flopped trip J's). I'm not ordinarily a proponent of slowplaying, but I think you can make a strong case for it when:
a) The flop is such that you're going to have to show your hand down.
b) The pot is small, and being contested shorthanded.
c) You like the flop, but have reason to assume that your opponent is either very, very happy with it or very, very scard of it.
If ATWOOD bets the flop, his opponent will likely either raise with his QQ or fold. If he folds, that's bad. If he raises that's O.K., but he'll probably fold to a bet on the turn-- which, again, is bad. So, unless things break stangely, I think it's unlikely that ATWOOD can get more than 1 1/2 sb's out of his opponent, given both of their holdings.
If the opponent was the type who would three bet with AQ or AJs, then I'd say fire away: not only because there's chance of getting action from a dominated hand, but also because players who will three bet with these hands are also likely to give action if they hold a wired underpair to the flop. But if the opponent is the type who only three bets with huge hands ('hugie bananas', as we called them in Denver), then he's also the type who can probably release K's or Q's to an A high flop. In which case, you want to string him out with his two outer for as long as possible.
I don't know what I'd do on the flop here-- I might bet it, then check the turn... if the opponent was fishy enough I may bet it the entire way... overall, it's hard to say. But I do know that if I was up against a player who would only three bet with AA, KK or QQ, then the last thing I'd want to do is lead bet the river.
But if the enemy can be counted on to fold QQ at the end, can he also not be counted on to check QQ if you check.
At least by betting, you may arouse some suspicion in his mind that you may be bluffing given the passive way you have played the flop and turn.
Like I said, while I am sure that ATWOOD had some sound reasons for playing it the way he did, it has its pitfalls not the least of which is the "soft" image that he projects to others.
Most of his opponents would not think "you know, that Atwood sure used some sophisticated thinking in rope-a-doping the tight rock in that hand."
Nope. They are going to think "jeez, that Atwood plays soft. I am going to bully him off a few pots when I get the chance."...I never want anyone to think that about me in a HE game.
I've thought about that-- the possibility that someone might try to run over you later--- but I'm not sure it's something to be very concerned about. For one thing, most players will assume that you're the type of player whose 'calls are like raises, which will incline them to give you free cards when you just call with position. Secondly, if they do try and run over you, that crap will stop the minute you pull the old 'bet the flop, then check raise the turn'. Since this rope a dope routine (I like that term, BTW, as it gives our great game a certain pugilistic flair) is only one trick in your proverbial grab bag, it will be hard for any player to consider this one play as being representative of your entire style.
Finally, I don't think most players are ever really paying attention. Maybe some, but not many. Overall I think it's important to do what you've got to do to get the most money in the middle when you're ahead, and I think ATWOOD's play of the hand accomplished that.
Here's hoping you respond. I'm interested to hear why you disagree.
GD,
I really can't disagree with anything you have said. Every statement you have made makes sense. Yet, I can't bring myself to use the rope-a-dope strategy too often. I bet a lot of hands in heads-up situations when I don't have top pair. Thus, I tend to do it when I do have it. Perhaps, the "disagreement" (if any) is based on a stylistic point.
Your point earlier about image is important and i can guarantee you that no one in this game thinks I'm passive. i usually over agressive and one of my main problems has been over playing hands. I usually play most reasonable holdings very aggresively heads-up and thats why I switched gears for this hand. This player was the only other player and the table thinking at the levels I'm thinking. And while he is fairly weak he was by far better than any other player at the table and he is very aware of how agressive i can be. Thats why I think this strategy worked in this instance but it might be the first time i've ever really used this type of play before and thats why i posted it.
You should bet the flop. You almost certainly have the best hand. Given your hand and the Ace on the table there is only one way he can have AA, three ways he can have KK, six ways for QQ, six ways for JJ, and six ways for AK which is a tie. You are a 21:1 favorite to have the best hand. He may not bet if he has a lower pair out of fear of the Ace. If you choose to slow play on the flop, then you must bet the turn or check-raise the turn. His river bet was bad poker.
I completely agree that a bet on the turn was appropriate. Looking back on it, I think this would have been the best play, although I argued otherwise in my earlier post.
Getting aggressive on the flop, however, might not have been a very good idea.
If the QQ player can fold an underpair on the flop or turn, the only place for ATWOOD to bet should be the river, and not even then if the QQ is usually foolish enough to bet the river as he did.
ATWOOD's play is perfect against any player that will bet but never draw to an underpair (lot of those). It also makes him feel like a complete idiot at the end of the hand and encourage him to slow down and fold later on. Another reason I like betting the river is that it makes your opponent feel like a clown for making a reasonable call against what might be a desparation bluff.
What if you were a 1000 to 1 favorite? This still doesn't mean that the bet is correct.
I believe it is perfectly reasonable to check and call at least the flop. Even the turn is not too bad, you can't easily lose and he may bet and probably fold if you can beat him.
The river should be bet has you really can't count on that bluff bet that he made.
D.
David:
You wrote:
"The river should be bet has you really can't count on that bluff bet that he made."
But you also can't count on being called by a worse hand against certain rock type of players. Here, a bet gains little because there is a MUCH greater chance that such a player will have AA or KK (I don't care how many ways the board says are left). Now, you can only expect a raise or a fold. On the other hand, you can expect any ace this player will hold to be bet since you have played in such a manner. I do agree against a great majority of players the river should be bet.
Kevin
I agree with Jim. Bet the flop. If you win it right there oh well. I've lost so many times with A-K I'll take the pot now. In a heads up position you may even get raised, as Guy suggests.
I'm not so sure that the bet on the river is bad poker though. Atwood has given no indication that he has a hand. I certainly wouldn't expect to see A-K here. It was played more like J-J, 10-10 or possibly A-Q. I may very well bet the river here depending on my opponent.
I think I should have bet the flop and if raised just call and check and call the rest of the way. (this player is capabale of raising the flop but would fold if I showed any other agression). Thats the reason I went into check and call mode on the turn and river. He's only going to play back at me if he has me beat (especially when the K came on the turn) This player was an agressive guy but definitley capable of laying his hand down if i'd shown more agression (this includes check raising and betting out on either the turn or the river.
Betting the river might make sense against some players but this guy would just have folded. So while I can't be sure he'd bet a worse hand on the river, checking to him is clearly the most profitable play because he might bet a worse hand (and in this case he did).
I think you played the hand well; Although, your opponent made a poor bet on the river. The only hands he can beat that you would call with are JJ, TT, or 99. You could be slowplaying a K or full house. He's not going to get you to lay down a better hand than a QQ.
It is a lot more likely that your opponent has QQ, JJ, or AK, than AA, or KK. Betting the river might be a better play.
I like your check on the flop--you want to lure your opponent into extra bets on later rounds. Although, if your sure he'll call you down or even raise with KK, QQ, or JJ, you should definately bet the flop.
I think arguments for the river play could be made either way but if I KNOW he will fold any hand I can beat, and will call with only hands I cant beat but is also capable of betting a worse hand (which he clearly is) than checking and calling is the only profitable play in this instance. Against a better player betting is correct but with this opponent checking and calling is the only profitable option.
This is 10/20 at the Mirage last weekend. The game is a little short-handed with 6 or 7 players.
A new player sits down and immedietly posts 2 to the left of the BB (I consider this a poor move). He checks, the player to his left calls, and I raise from a middle position with AJo. All fold to the 2 limpers who both call. The flop comes JT5 rainbow. It is checked to me, I bet, and both opponents call. The turn is a another 5. It is again checked to me, I bet, the new player calls and the remaining player folds. The river is a blank. It is checked to me, I bet, and this time the new player check-raises me. I call and am shown TT; the new player wins the pot with his full house. I mentally note that the new player did not raise with his TT preflop (as I would have).
Two hands later I pick up AJs and raise from an early position. I get only 1 caller, the new player in the BB. The flop comes 743 rainbow. It is checked to me and I bet; the BB calls. The turn is an offsuit 5. Now the BB leads out with a bet. I don't think that he would be playing little cards (giving him a straight or 2 pair) and so I call. The river is a blank and I call when he bets again. My opponent shows down Q6s; he made his gutshot draw on the turn.
My impression of my opponent was that he was a marginal player and was just lucky. I would never have put in a bet to play Q6s heads-up from the BB. And I thought that his call on the flop was poor, too.
But in retrospect perhaps his play was not that bad. He was getting 3.5:1 to call pre-flop; while marginal this is not a terrible call to make. The call on the turn is also not an awful play. My opponent had 10 outs if he's confident that I don't have a pocket pair or a 7. After I bet the flop he is getting 5.5:1 odds from the pot. This is more than enough if he thinks that he has 10 outs and borderline if he thinks that he has 7 outs (any 5 or a Q).
I didn't face this player again so I don't have any more information on his play. How would you rate his game? Feel free to comment on my play, too. I like my play on the first hand. But on the second hand I should have folded probably on the turn and definitely on the river when I did not improve.
TT is not considered by many a raising hand in early position (neigther is AJo). He trapped you real good and he probably should have bet the turn maybe worried about JJ but I think he just wants to get the extra bet on the river.
Calling a raise heads up with a hand like Q6s from a guy raising a lot (maybe to much) from mid position with AJ is not that bad a play (maybe he thought you were getting out of line). The flop is really condusive to a bb hand he could easily have had A7 or even 56. He knows you are the kind of player who raises with AJo+ from just about anywhere so betting the flop and planning to bet out to the river is a (semi-bluff) good strategy.
I think the "new" guy is a pretty good (tricky) player and ought to be played with caucion.
I think you played the 1st hand Ok but over played your over cards in the 2nd hand. In that case I'd probably just dump them on the flop.
Your the one who doesn't have the odds for the draw since it is more likely he hit the flop and he knew you didn't.
I consider TT in the realm of small pairs when in early position. I'm not real happy when I see JJ from early position either. Mid to Late position is a diferent story if folded to me.
AJo is not a raising hand. If called you are up against superior strength when playing against moderately skilled players.
AJs is a hand you would like to see more callers from. If a raise is called then you are outgunned. You reduce the # of players when you have a multiway hand.
It's hard to judge this opponent from just a few hands. Why could you not make a better judgement after sitting at the table with him over the next little while?
Posting rather than waiting for 3 hands is a poor move BUT he may have done it to show that he's in a gambling mood and wants to play. It certainly won him a number of extra bets in this case.
I think he is a decent player with an edge of gamble in him. He's also tricky so in general not the ideal opponent.
Regards
15/30 HE, 7 handed, 4 a.m. on a Monday in Mt. Pleasant MI. Everyone at the table has a lot of experience and is capable of sophisticated moves. I'm in the S.B. with K3-suited. To my right, on the button, is a very aggressive player, (and habitual bluffer), who is down $1000 in the game but currently has $500 in chips. Pre-flop, 4 limpers including the button. I call the extra $5 to see the flop.
The flop comes KK3 rainbow. I check, figuring I'll let someone else bet for me. Interestingly, everybody checks.
The turn comes an off-suit 2. I still check. For the first time in at least 6 hours, everybody checks the turn. I picked a poor time to sand-bag.
The river comes an 8. The pot contains $90. I'm shocked that nobody has made a play for this pot. I still check. It checks around to the button, who finally bets. I raise him. The others fold. He re-raises. I 4-bet. He calls, then mucks in disbelief when I announced full-house. I take the $330 pot, $195 of which was Other People's Money.
Any critcism of the way this was played is most surely welcome. What do you think my opponent had??
It looks to me like you flopped a $75 win. Who else could have anything? The turned deuce did not help your cause and without the river check, you would have stacked only the 18 reds that originally hit the felt. John
I played in Mt Pleasant for the 1st time last week so I know how tricky they are up there. If I were sitting on a full house have bet the flop as they never would put you on any kind of hand if you bet the flop and bet the turn and river they would think you were trying to buy it.
Exactly.
On my drive home, I was convinced that I'd maximized value out of the hand, figuring that the pot was for sale on the flop and the turn; and that nobody would invest in it. However, a bet on the flop may have very well induced someone to take a stab at the pot with a bluff-raise, since the trend in this game is to slow play flopped sets.
As an aside, the more I've considered the hand, the more I think the button held a big King. I think he was waiting for someone to show some interest in the pot. That's the only holding that I can possibly put this super-aggressive player on that he would check two consecutive rounds from the button. If that is indeed the case, then I probably missed a couple more bets.
I actually found it pretty easy to play this crowd they tend to play weak with big hands and strong with weak hands and scarry flops - I mix it up a lot so they didn't know what to do with me but I knew what to do with them.
They are a by and large a tricky (thinking) bunch but nothing I haven't seen before - a few less maniacs than I am used to thought - I will be back.
I agree. The more I play there, the more easy it is to adjust to the trickier types. There are an awful lot who play the flop strongly when weak and just smooth call when strong, waiting for the expensive rounds to pull the trigger. This applies mostly to the bigger game running; the 6-12 and lower is a bit more straight-forward.
Glad you enjoyed your time there, Rounder.
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Let me begin by introducing myself. I play in the Los Angeles area--Commerce, Bicycle, Hollywood Park, and Hustler. I play mostly in the yellow chip games and sometimes in the brown chip games. I play 3 or 4 times a week and get most of my money from playing poker. I am Asian and 21 years old. I have been playing poker for two years (I had a fake I.D. when I was underage). I learned to play from an ex-boyfriend but have been reading and trying to improve my game. In the last year, I have been averaging about 1/4 a big bet an hour so I know that my game is solid but not spectacular. There is definitely room for improvement.
Because I play a lot and there are not that many casinos in L.A., most of the time when I sit down in a game, 80% of the players are already familiar to me. Of course, I adjust my game to the player which is very easy as many times the pot becomes head up on the flop or turn.
Of course, the other players also recognize me and the better players (there are plenty in L.A.!) adjust their play when we are in a pot together. This leads to my question.
I play against a player at least two times a week. She is a middle aged Asian and an excellent player. In the last couple of weeks, we have been in games for extended periods of time and I have watched her game closely. It is very strong and sophisticated. Through extended scrutiny, I have deduced the strategy she is using against me (and also certain other players). I have figured out a partial counter strategy and would like to know if I am on the right track.
Her strategy (Part 1): This is used when she has position on me. In a game last week, I was in seat 8 and she was in seat 1.
Pre flop:
When the button is in seats 2-5, and I limp, she raises 80% of the time. By watching the cards she shows down on the river, she is raising with any Ax, any two cards Ace through Jack, any pocket pair, suited connectors, one, two and three gapped suited and unsuited cards and I suspect sometimes with any two cards. If I raise, she calls or reraises using typical Slansky/Malmuth hands/straegy.
On the flop, after I have limped, been raised and called pre-flop:
If I check, she always bets. She continues to bet on the turn and river. By watching what she shows down on the river, she is betting with any two overcards, any flush or straight draw, any pocket pair,and sometimes on a stone cold bluff. If I bet, she raises with any first, second and third pair, any flush draw, and any pocket pair.
When I reraise, she usually checks and calls to the river. The only time she folds is when there is an open pair on the board and she does not have trips or it very obvious that she is beat and has no reasonable chance of improving. e.g two or three high cards and she has none of them.
When I check the flop after being raised and calling pre-flop, she is betting to pick up the pots where I have flopped nothing.
If I raise she checks and calls to the river to prevent me from making a move on her when I have nothing.
I win the pot when I have connected on the flop, but most of the time when I have two high cards, I am forced to abandon the pot and fold on the flop or turn. The times she pays me off by checking and calling to the river are not frequent enough to make up for all the hands where I flop nothing and let her have the pot. It is similar to the situation described in Brunson's Super System No-Limit Hold Em section.
My Counter Strategy:
Pre- Flop:
With a big pocket pair, I limp re-raise hoping to trap her into putting several bets when she is at a disadvantage. With two big cards, I raise, hoping she will re-raise and help me limit the field.
I muck most drawing hands because I don't want to pay multiple bets to see the flop. I do this even when the rest of the table is passive, and with the exception of my nemesis, I think I can see the flop for one small bet.
On the flop, turn and river:
With a big pocket pair and when I have paired on the flop, I follow a mixed strategy. Check raising the majority of the time and betting out once in awhile.
When I have two overcards, I check and call hoping to catch a card on the turn.
When I have a draw I check and call if I have the proper pot odds.
It frustrates me that I am giving many pots where I suspect I have the best hand on the flop, i.e. where the flop has missed both my nemesis and I.
Am I using the proper counterstrategy? Are there any other adjustments I can make?
Love and Kisses,
hklahehottie.
1stly - I hope you are not getting obsessed with this player - it is a mistake to let one player affect you to much.
Now your nemesis seems to have you figured as a weak player and is going after you - OK if you know what she is doing. Seems easy eneough to play better cards than she does. Be tricky and in consistant.
Your nemesis sounds like a maniac or is it just when she is a hand against you?
I had a nemesis like this in tournaments and hated it when he was at my table then once I figured out how to play him I couldn't wait for him to get to my table.
You are gonna have to start playing back at her in other words if she raises you you have to rerise specially if you think you have her beat. Only way you will stop her is to spank her down a few times.
OK to play drawing hands med coupled and/or (S) on the button or cut off just get away from it if you don't hit the flop. Far as BIG cards go playing cards like Ax KJ and QT are not quality cards and usually end up being 2nd place and costly cards to play. Why don't you post some typical hands for analysis.
Let us know how it progresses.
I think you need to look at your whole game. I think you might be a little too predictable, and maybe not semi bluffing enough when you only have 2 opponents etc. obviously, I don't know this for sure, but usually if someone seems to be consistently outplaying you , then you are probably being very predictable.
Its easy to get into a very conservative style as you learn more, but then you have to be willing to be more aggressive. it doesn't mean that you have to get wild, it means that when you come in, they are going to have to put chips in there to play with you.
When you say that you limped in, right there,.. instead of limping you should be coming in with a raise. be willing to be more aggressive pre flop and on the flop.
Please don't take this wrong, but I find that many women players aren't aggressive enough. I also find that many women players read us men very well, yet they don't take full advantage. I hope this doesn't offend you, it's just us lug head men have the testosterone working for us, and Holdem is a game of aggression as well as patience.
Be more aggressive with your good hands, go after the pot when there is just three of you in there with not much pre flop raising, and see what happens. sHE'LL BACK OFF. GOODLUCK
First off, request a seat change and try to get position on her, then most of your problems will be solved. If you can not get on her left then play only big cards and pocket pairs and start reraising her frequently. If she is raising you 80% of the time then you can pretty much always reraise her pre-flop when you play. If you make a good hand then bet out, call her raise, then checkraise on the turn. If she stops calling your raises then start doing the same thing when you flop nothing. If you have any chance of improving check-call her to the river. Only fold if you completly miss and have no chance of improving. Using this strategy you should win 2/3 of the showdowns cuz you have better starting hands and are folding when you completely miss. Call her down with Ace high or better. If you are reraising pre-flop there will be 7 1/2 SB in the pot on the flop. Assuming a check and call strategy you will be getting 8.5:1 to call the flop. 5:1 to call the turn and 5.5:1 to call the river. Sufficent odds to call someone who bets 100% of the time.
I use your nemesis's reraising strategy(I dont bluff or semibluff them though) a lot when I am up against loose aggressive players. There is a player in my game who will(used to) raise 90% of the time if he is in late position and first one in. I will reraise him with about 50% of my hands and shut everyone else out of the pot. After a while ppl will finally catch on and start calling 3 bets before the flop with garbage like J-9. That's when you change gears and start playing real tight, but everyone still thinks you are a maniac.
Interesting post...
My impression of this situation is that your opponnent is trying to take advantage of an opponent (you) who has demonstrated weakness in the past. Playing weak hands in early position against a strong aggressive player is a guaranteed loser.
When you are against such an opponnent who has position on you, you must not limp in early position. You must play Group I hands that you can raise with in early position. I suspect that she will stop making plays against you as soon as she realizes you are not coming in early with nothing but the stuff.
Personally, I would try to change seats until I have position on her and then take advantage of her hand selection and start jacking her up and see how she likes it.
Just remember that the aggressor has the advantage in poker if you let them force you to make a decision instead of them. It is like blackjack where the dealer has an advantage because the player has to act first.
Good luck
I thought I was the youngest poker player at Commerce, 2 years ago when I was 19! Looks like I had some competition in that category afterall. Fake/Borrowed I.D.s are a glorious thing to poker players that aren't 21 yet. Don't get caught up with this one player too much. Tighten up against her and let her bet your good hands for you so you can checkraise her. She seems to play in a wild fashion against you. Just remember that when she has position, she has a major advantage from the get-go, so don't get bent out of shape if you feel like you can't beat her. Of course you want to figure out how to, but focusing on one tiny part of your game is a bad use of time if you end up neglecting more common situations to work on. Anyway, I particularly liked your idea of limp re-raisng with premium hands, that will surely slow her down. If she still won't respect your play just let her hang herself. She won't know what hit her :-)
Sounds like this player is picking on you. You must be giving her indications of weak play. You should post some specific hands in order to determine where you might be going wrong. There is one type of hand you addressed that I do have some comments on:
When you raise with AK and you know this player will 3 bet you with worse hands, your play is not always to check/call the flop... You should often times check/raise! Then continue to bet the turn and either bet or check/call the river. In other words, ram that AK down her throat! You're not the only one the flop often misses. Many times your AK will be the best hand and you should be betting it against this type of player for value. I also think you should check/raise your draws more often against this player. That's my take on it.
Kevin
If she always bets when you check to her, then you should always check the flop regardless of your hand. You can then call, raise, or fold depending on how you like your holding. Remember that if she is always betting, you will have to call her down with weak hands, such as ace high.
After a while she will get the message and stop betting behind you all the time. Then you can start betting some of your hands into her. But also check a lot.
William
Clearly she wants to isolate you. The best counter-strategy is of course to move. When I'm faced with an equally aggressive opponent, I prefer to be half-way around the table from them. This allows me use of a full range of strategies rather than being forced to work harder to counteract someone who has position on me. It also allows me to work the field against the hyper-aggressive (i.e., use their aggression to get better paid on certain hands).
However, assuming you remain in the same seat, the best strategy against an isolation play is to make a pre-emptive strike (ala` Abdulian pre-flop strategy to raise with any hand you enter the pot). Limping is ill-advised even with a hand such as 6-7s. Further, if you raise with any opening hand, you will cripple her on your big hands.
Cerainly it takes good judgment post-flop when you miss. But here again, your best strategy is to bet out on the flop, whether you connect big or connect in any way. The only time I would check would be if I were intending to throw my hand away to any bet. Continue to bet and pressure on the turn. On the river, use proper bet, call, raise strategy: generally bet top pair or better, check and call with any middle pair, and bet your busted hands as bluffs.
The net effect of your pre-flop and flop play will be to put much more pressure on your adversary. She will also be required to put in many more bets (people who sit on my immediate left and immediate right are nearly always the big losers in my games).
I haven't read the other posts in this thread but your post is one of the most interesting that I have ever seen. Here are a couple of quick comments.
First, I have some doubt that you are describing the situation totally accurately. The reason is that when you are sitting in a 9 or 10 handed game it seems to me that your opponent's strategy must fail due to the other players. If she was always sure that she could get heads-up with you and that you didn't adjust correctly, then she could beat you out of a fair amount of money over time. But I suspect that she will frequently get called behind her and one or more of the blinds will also usually play. When this is the case, I can't imagine her strategy being as effective or as precise as you indicate.
However, let's assume that things are happening exactly as you describe. That is if you play she is frequently in there isolating you with a raise with a hand that does not seem to warrant it. What you have done is put yourself in a short handed situation with a very aggressive player. In the 21st Century Edition of Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players we describe exactly how you counter a player like this in the section on short handed play. While your situation is not exactly the same, I think there are enough similarities for this section of the book to be very helpful to you. It will tell you that the main adjustment that you must make is to call more on the flop and the turn. We even talk about how you should frequently "turn the top card on the flop into a deuce." I don't have the time to go into detail here, but I suspect that if you study this section in our book it will be very helpful to you.
I am totally impressed that a 21 year old is perceptive enough to make these obsevations and actually develope a counter strategy. Kuddos to you. I hope I never play against you when you are are 25.
Frank Donnelly
25?!?! Sheesh, I hope to NEVER play against her!
one question, what stakes does yellow and brown chip games refer? - thanks, please enlighten the brit
Folks:
This is no lie. These hands occurred within three hours of each other at the same 10-20 table.
SYNOPSIS: Twice I flop full houses, slow play both, and muck both on the river when I am hopelessly beaten, all within a three hour period.
Hand A: I call a five way raised pot in the SB with pocket 7s.
FLOP: T,T,7
I smooth call the BTF raiser as does the BB.
TURN: 4
I smooth call the BTF raiser again because I want the weak BB to call which he does.
RIVER: T
I bet out and muck to the BTF raiser's raise. He had pocket kings.
Hand B; Six way action, I call in the SB with 44.
FLOP: J,J,4
Tight UTG bets and I call.
TURN: 2
Here I decided I am no dummy and will not make the same mistake twice so I check raise UTG who reraises, I reraise and he calls. Four bets.
RIVER: J
I check and muck to UTG's bet.
What did I learn?
Frank Donnelly
Hey Frank:
Just curious. In Hand B: Did you put UTG on a J,4 or 22? DO you think he would've made it $60 with 2-pair (pocket pair)? That's a tough check/fold on the river with all that $$$ in there...
Kevin
Sorry it's late and I'm probably not thinking clearly enough to respond to posts.
But it sure looks like he either had the case Jack or 22. All I'm saying is that there would be enough doubt in my mind about the case Jack (meaning 22) that I would've made a crying call on the end with all that dough in there. Kevin
I'm guessing he might have had an over pair and mis played it - but I agree with you I'd like to see the river just for the hell of it.
Rounder and Kevin:
I had never played with UTG before today but he impressed me as a very tight conservative player. I could not in my wild immaginations put him on pocket 2's from early position. I have absolutely no doubt he held the case J and would have folded if the pot was offering me 200-1.
Frank Donnelly
Sorry Frank, it's just that I VERY strongly disagree. This is NOT no-limit poker here.
There are other considerations. The entire table saw you cap the turn in a heads up pot and then check and fold for a single bet with $260 at risk on the possibility of a case card. This is NOT good! Even if you KNEW he had the case Jack (and it sure looks like he must), I think it's worth $20 to preserve your table image alone. It would be different if the board was JJ422. btw- In my haste to respond being very tired last night, I mis-read the flop. (I thought a deuce flopped). JJ4 makes 22 almost out of the question. Sorry.
Also consider that:
1). Even some good players are capable of mis-reading their hole cards.
2). Even conservative players can make a desparation bet.
3). The light fixture above this player may have been loose enough to fall on his head, rendering him unable to show a winning hand, etc. etc.
These, along with pot odds and preservation of table image, combine to give you enough reason to make the crying call. I just don't think that a heads up, capped on the turn pot, with $260 in it, is the time to be trying to save a single bet. He's gonna have to show me the case Jack EVERY time! Again, it's different if a 2 hits on the end. Just my opinion. Take care.
Kevin
Slow playing an under full house is a crazy move in my opinion. Just be the thing and see what happens. You may have won both hands if you had played very aggressively.
I haven't read the other posts but just to give my 2 cents worth.
I cannot see any reason possible to slowplay these hands. You do not have the nuts in either case on the flop. It's my opinion that to slowplay correctly you must have the nuts and let the others try and catch their hand. I would have been firing at both pots, raising and re-raising if necessary, on the flop.
In the first hand if you don't have a good read on the BB then he could very well have T7!
In the second hand I definitely make it 2 bets on the flop with the notion of making it 4 bets. This is where you should define his hand. What you did on the turn is what I would've done on the flop and bet out on the turn. When the J falls on the river you have to make the crying call if he's still in.
Stephen
Frank
What you learned? There's a lot of short term luck in poker. And no matter how well you play a hand you can be drawn out on by bad plays and bad players. In the long run if their always chasing you you will get the money. Remember if there were'nt people chasing you and getting there sometimes,there would be no game since you would be winning all the time. As an example, in the final hand at the WSOP T.JCloutier had AK against A9 and got sucked out on the river. It's not good to be results orientated in poker it can get you in a lot of trouble. Try to make the right plays and keep learning and the money will find it's way into your stacks. Good Luck Larry
"What did I learn?"
Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger, sometimes you're the ball.
Both methods of playing those hands are viable. It happens.
Heh try this one on for size.
I am in the BB with 77. 2 Limpers, raised in late position, SB folds, limpers and I call.
4 way action.
Flop is K T 7 rainbow. I flopped a set! The problem is, did the raiser flop a set? I didn't think so. As I commonly do with flopped sets, I bet out. One limper calls, one limper drops, preflop raiser raises. I have to find out where this guy is so I reraise. Limper calls, preflop raises looks a little upset and calls. Ok, he has AK or AA. So far so good.
Turn is a T. Cool, I filled up. I bet out, limper raises, preflop raiser says 'Son of a bitch!' and calls, I reraise, both call.
River comes - you guessed it - another king.
Preflop raisers eyes light up like a christmas tree. I check in disgust, limper thinks and checks, preflop raiser bets, I muck, limper thinks and calls.
Limper had T something, preflop raiser had AK.
I show my 77 and muck it.
-SmoothB-
Setup: game generally tight passive with one or two loose passive players. 10-20
Is A-9 Suited a reasonable hand to attempt a steal - second from the button when you are followed by a two solid players, loose passive small blind and solid player in the big blind.
What would be a minimum hand to attempt to steal in this position?
I've read the other responses and think I am in the minority here. I think that A-9s is sufficient to raise with and try to steal the blinds. If the blinds have a better hand then so be it but it is unlikely that they can beat A-9s at this point. By raising you force them to fold hands where they would hit on the flop and beat you. I think hands like A-9o, K-9o, Q,Jo are about the minimums for raising here.
If the blinds are solid players they will also fold more hands than loose players. Everyone knows some loose players that will protect their blinds regardless of what they have. The solid player will only call with a decent hand so by raising you force him to fold and he wont hit two pair or something like that when the flop comes.
If you are reraised by the by the blinds then I think you simply call and see what happens on the flop. If an Ace hits I think you call to the river. If you fold here I think you are folding to easily and the solid players will often make a move on you knowing that you will fold.
If you are the next to act and know that the person is capable of stealing with these hands(and of course you now have position)would you call/muck/reraise with A-Jo?
This is from an actual game, I held A-Jo.
Assuming no one has limped in, sure, A9 suited is plenty good enough to raise with in the cutoff seat.
You have a good hand, great position, etc. Many people would steal with less.
-SmoothB-
I think it depends on the texture of the game. If every pot comes down to a show-down, then A9s is a calling hand; one that welcomes other callers, so that when you do win with this hand, you win a monster.
On the other hand, if most pots are being won without a show-down (and usually being won by the pre-flop raiser), then you need to be raising with a broad variety of hands when you're in late position. I favor raising with any suited ace, any pocket pair, and some suited connectors. When your opponents get wise to you and start calling you down, then you should tighten up and adjust appropriately as the game conditions change. This may lead to increased variance, but IMO this is sound strategy when the circumstances are right.
When your raise with A9 forces the small blind to muck AJ or AT, then you are successfully "stealing"
I would say that A4o and A8s are minimum steals from 2 off the button. With AJo, I would reraise a player who I thought stole with the correct frequency. But most players don't steal enough, and I would fold for them.
William
I would say that A8o and A4s are minimum steals from 2 off the button. With AJo, I would reraise a player who I thought stole with the correct frequency. But most players don't steal enough, and I would fold for them.
William
Rounder makes a good point. How many times do you think you can get away at trying to steal a solid player's BB? 1 in 5? 1 in 10? 1 in 3? If it's my BB and I see you gunning me down I will fire back at you without thinking twice. Would you stay with A9 suited if suddenly comes around to you capped? I would raise pairs 9 and higher, AK, AQs into a solid player's BB. If the BB is weak tight then the variety of hands will differ, but wouldn't go down to A9s.
Stephen
I like AQo as minimum to attempt the steal.
If just called I am likely ahead. If raised I may have 2 overs to JJ or lower pair. I expect BB only to raise back with (99 - AA) or AK or AQs.
Regards
BTD - that ain't a steal - you have a legit hand there. But I like your thinking.
Yes, of course. Maybe a bit tight ...
Here are two situations that I argued w/ a friend over recently. Both are from an aggressive, 8 handed 20/40 game w/ two maniacs, a rock, and a couple of unknowns.
1: 1 call, then raise from middle position by unknown. All fold to SB where you hold AJo. Call or Muck?
2: All fold to cutoff who you've seen show down good hands and who played them aggressively. Fold to SB where you hold KQo. Call or Muck?
Thanks, Patrick
1: Who was the unknown raising, one of the maniacs or the rock? If it was the maniac I probably call. If it was the rock I muck on the assumption that the rock will raise. The payoff of a maniacs re-raises outweighs the rock.
2: If the cutoff is a guy who's aggressive then I would call. If he had a good hand he probably would've raised. He might have the same hand you have.
Stephen
Sorry, Hand 1: Original caller was a loose-aggressive type and I had never played w/ and the raiser was a tight-aggressive player who plays well but calls a little too much.
Hand 2: Unknown player raised from teh cut-off not just called.
Thanks
I think it is a close call in both situation so I can see where you and your friend would disagree.
Of course a lot depends on the players and what your particular read of each player is.
When I am in the small blind and face a raise with very few other players I like to treat it as if I am not in the small blind and only call if I would have called the bet cold. Most players think they are getting a discounted price and therefore will call more often. I think this will cost them money in the long run. Roy Cooke wrote a good article in this month's Cardplayer about hands where you think you are getting in cheap and they end up costing you a bundle, so be wary about getting in "cheap".
On the first hand you say the limper was loose while the raiser was tight and agressive. I would probably fold this hand but it is a very tough call. A-Jo is a hand that can easily be dominated by A-Q or A-K or a big pair. Also if you don't hit an A or J on the flop you probably have to fold anyway so I would save my money and fold BTF.
The second hand is also difficult because it is likely that you are facing a blind stealer. A late position caller will raise with many hands especially if he is the first person in. Therefore, I would probably call. There is a good chance that you will get the pot heads up and you have a strong hand in a heads up situation, especially if the cutoff player was trying to steal.
I probably fold both trap hands.
Reraise or pass, but I wouldn't lose much sleep about it. Over the course of a year these type of decisions are not going to cost you too much either way.
Bruce
Aggressive 20/40 game. Mixed line-up. Fold, Fold, Raise by Maniac(M), I have KK and re-raise. Fold all the way to SB where TA calls 50 more. M calls. Flop : JJx - Two suited not to my Ks. TA checks, M checks, I bet, TA - check-raises, M - folds. Turn : blank TA bets, I call. River : K TA bets, I raise, he calls and disgustedly mucks AJo.
Was I correct in not laying down the overpair? I thought AJ was a slim possibility since he called 2.5 cold w/ only 2 other players in the pot. I thought it was more likely that he could be playing 99-QQ and trying to get my big pair / big cards out of the pot.
If he is a tricky player unless you have a good read on the person I think this is a situation in which you heed to call him down. The reason why he called with AJo is because you re-raised the maniac, so he doesn't give you credit for a big hand. He lucked out on the flop and you lucked out on the river. You both played it correctly.
I wouldn't lay your hand down. I would assume that he had a pair and was playing it strongly in case you had overcards.
Besides, how could he have flopped trips? I never do in that situation... :)
if there wasn't the three bet before the flop, then i would have no reservation about calling the raise.But you showed strength, so......
unless you have a loose image, then a very simple yet overlooked rule applies.
When someone raises, they usually have the goods and are not bluffing. I am saying usually.And when someone checks, they usually don't have the goods and are not sandbagging.
Yet we always think the opposite. when they check, we wonder if they are looking to checkraise, and when they raise we are always wondering if its bluff or semi bluff.
simple yet so true. it might apply here. Those big pairs are so hard to let go. seeya
Very good post.
The only thing I would say for not folding is that you can't be seen as someone who will too easily fold when there is a pair on board which often happens. If you are viewed this way then the better players will notice it and bluff you when any pair hits the board. However, I agree with your general satements.
Patrick this whole thing depends upon your read of your opponent. Against an LOL (Little Old Lady) or a TOM (Tight Old Man) I would fold everytime when check-raised on the flop after the previous betting sequence since I would know I was playing a two outer and the odds are not there to chase. Against a good player who is capable of moves I might call the flop bet and see if he bets the turn. Against a maniac, an unpredictable player, or a stranger I would have to call him down with my over pair.
Good response, Jim.
I think a lot players will check raise with a medium pair in that situation. It's two-barreled because the raiser could have AQ or AK or he might fold on the turn with 10-10, Q-Q, K-K or even A-A. If I am playing someone like you who is capable of releasing a big hand, I would make that play fairly routinely. I might even bet and re-raise if I think you know I sometimes play my trips/sets fast. Now that's a cool play -- I bet, you raise, Maniac folds, I reraise, then you fold to my bet on the turn. And I have 8-8.
Of course it's pointless to try this against your average jackass who will NEVER fold his overpair.
It has a lot to do with the guy check raising. I am wary of check raises on the flop by tricky or aggressive players when the board is scarry. I find it usually pays off to play a hand like this out what I would consider another J an out for me.
A 20-40 hand from not too long ago:
I'm in middle/late position in a 9 handed must-move game at Lucky Chances. I'm dealt 67o and raise a limper to my immediate right. Button calls as do both blinds and the limper.
Flop, 5 players: 8 9 10, with 2 diamonds
Check, check, bet, I call, button and both blinds call.
Turn, 5 players: 8 9 10 [4, not a diamond]
Check, check, flop opener bets, I raise, fold, call (almost all in), call, opener thinks a long time (which felt like an eternity) and calls.
River, 4 players: 8 9 10 4 [3 of diamonds]
First to act (who is the small blind, in case you lost the sequence) throws his last 30 dollars in. Big blind folds, a long pause from the player to my immediate right who then folds, I call. Small blind shows a busted straight draw and gets up to leave. I win the pot.
I know I won't get any praise for my preflop or flop play (to say the least). But does anyone see a missed opportunity from any of the players? If you find it, forget the results (my cards, small blinds cards) and let me know if it is indeed a pos EV move. THanks.
Gus
You were VERY lucky.
I don't see any missed opportunities from other players other than bluffing that they had a flush which is what the small blind basically did and was called down which he will most of the time.
I will often play coupled (don't need to be suited) cards late I woul't usually raise with them but I'd probably play the hand pretty much like you did raising on the flop about 1/2 the time depending on the game.
Since I usually have a tight aggressive image when I do play these rags I get lots of action and it is a high +EV for me.
Yes, but the solid player needs to have a hand to reraise, no? Most of the time he won't have a hand to reraise with so why fear trolls under the bridge?
In fact, tight solid players are precisely the types I want to have in the blinds when I try this. I'm not going to steal the blinds of a couple of calling stations. One of them might spike a 7 on the flop and call me down to the river.
How can you survive in tight games if you don't try to steal the blinds with these kinds of hands? Even thr great Oz will raise here with K x suited.
Anyway, even if the blinds do perceive you as trying to steal the blinds too often, they might reraise you with something like KQo. What would be wrong with that?
Doing this will also help your image for future hands. Later on when you raise here with AA or KK you might get reraised by 77 or KJo.
If you ONLY raise with type one hands, even when first in in late position, you are going to be too easy to play against.
-SmoothB-
Jim,
can't fault your thinking here it makes sense the way you lay it out BUT most of the time I raise with the QQ and bet out on the flop - some times I may play it like you did depending on the personality of the table.
When the 3rd d hit on the turn I am probably out of the hand and fold here with a check/fold. Maybe weak but I'm not gonna over play my over pair here it just costs to much money.
1. yes 2. yes 3. yes 4. yes
It seems like the 8 seat has made a set. There is also a slight possibility that he has T-8, or 9-7. You didn't really give a profile of the player. If he is a good player I doubt he would have bet into #9 with a draw, but rather prefer to checkraise with many people in. He probabably flopped a set or 2 pair and bet into #9 hoping he would raise and eliminate the field. I wouldnt play a set that way though...the draws will not fold even for two bets, but for 1 bet middle pair, bottom pair and overcards will call.
When the turn card makes a straight and a flush possible I think you can just check and fold. #8 has to have you beat now and you may not even have outs. Now to answer your questions:
1. You should have 3 bet...there are so many people in the hand and you are likely to have the best hand. You are getting good value on a raise here. 2. Yes, it was a reasonable assumption that everyone will check to the agressive player who is almost sure to bet. You have a better chance of eliminating people by check raising. 3. Not sure about this one. I think it is very likely that you are beat so I think check-fold may be the best play. I would have done exactly what you did though. 4. If you have outs you have 1 at most! Good fold.
I think you are being too quick in jumping to conclusions about #8. You don't he'd bet hands like A9,T9,98,87,76,55? Many of these hands would be consistent with his play... Betting the flop, calling a raise, and now raising the turn...
Dr. Trey
.
What do you think the button was calling with though? Surely he can beat two queens.
I have not read other responses yet but here is my preliminary opinion:
3-betting from the BB is an option if you feel there is a chance of eliminating one or both of the players between you and the original raiser. Since you stated that you didn't feel this could be accomplished, then just calling given your poor position is reasonable. However, I think you should re-think your assessment on this to determine if this really was the case. I find it hard to believe that it was a forgone conclusion that 2 $30-$60 players would think nothing of calling 2 more cold given that the 3rd bet came from an out of position BB. This increases the chances that at least one of the raisers has a big hand and they'd be correct to muck most hands they had limped with. Raising may also give you a better read on #9's hand as his reaction could be very telling. In addition, you may be raising for value with the best hand. These are all things to think about, but I don't feel calling was a terrible play if you were correct in your assessment.
I understand your desire to check/raise, but I wonder if you gave any thought to the benefits of betting out. First of all, I'm not as confident #9 will bet for you. Aggressive is one thing, but you'd have to border on maniac to bet into 4 players with just overcards on a flushing board. Even if you are absolutely sure he's going to bet, diamonds aren't going anywhere when you raise anyway. This creates unecessary confusion for you as it becomes harder to ascertain who has a hand and who is drawing. If the players between you and #9 are reasonable a bet from you should have (almost) the same effect because you are squeezing them between you and #9. It also has the additional benefit of making your opponents hands more readable. You can zero in a little more on #8's hand (how he responds to your bet with the pre-flop raiser to his left, might be very telling about his hand). How #9 responds is telling too. Of course, you are also assuring that money goes in the pot.
Yes. I think you were correct in betting the turn and folding under the circumstances. However these circumstances may have been clearer had you played it differently. Not that you played it bad.
Dr. Trey
This is what I would have done :
1. Should I have 3 bet pre-flop from my big blind? I would have because I would believe I am getting the best of it on that extra bet. however, I think some people may argue that you would be making the pot too big, and thus making it correct for anyone to chase on the flop or turn. I don't buy that argument, but I'm just stating it because I think some people may make it. I'd rather they put in more money with the worst of it right now.
2. Was I correct in check-raising on the flop rather than just betting out? I would have done the same thing...since you checked, a check-raise is definitely correct, as no one can put you on a strong hand...on the other hand, if you had 3 bet pre-flop, then you need to bet out....that's the disadvantage of 3 betting. A check-raise in that spot is perfect.
3. Was I correct in betting the turn? I think this is close...it depends on how well you know your opponents. If they are all tough/semi-tough players, a bet is correct...if they are loose tourist types, then you need to check.
4. Was my fold correct? Yes...you have a bettor and a caller....at worst, their hands are ; Ad or Kd only and a lower pair. In my mind, this is a tough parlay to get exactly...I'd be willing to fold and bet that one of them has a flush, a straight, two pair or a set.
You played fine except at the river. With four parts to a straight on the table I would just call when the big blind suddenly finds a bet on the river after I have shown all the strength on the previous betting rounds. I would be concerned about a straight and if he doesn't have a straight he could easily have a hand that beats a pair of Kings.
1. Should I have 3 bet pre-flop from my big blind?
Probably not
2. Was I correct in check-raising on the flop rather than just betting out?
Definitely!
3. Was I correct in betting the turn?
Tough decision - against only two players, you must check and fold or bet and fold if raised.
4. Was my fold correct?
Definitely!
One *almost* has to have a flush, straight, trips, or two pair. (both can't be bluffing)
But in some of those crazy games one may have top pair or an overpair to board but under your queens and the other may have Ad Ks or similar.
Jim,
Here is my opinion. I haven't looked at the other answers yet.
1. “Should I have 3 bet pre-flop from my big blind?”
I prefer the three-bet against a cutoff raiser. I believe it may get some early limpers to fold (if they know your play) and if they don’t they know they are in trouble. Note that a cutoff seat raiser’s raising requirements against two limpers will include some medium strength high hands like AJ, KQ, and KJ, so you are often leading by a lot.
Against an early raiser, the call has more merit as you can often get him to either lay down (or even raise with) overcards if you lead bet on the flop (assuming you still have the overpair). You can also get in a checkraise for value when you flop a set or lead bet into a single overcard (thus defining your hand).
2. “Was I correct in check-raising on the flop rather than just betting out? “
I think it is close. An aggressive pre flop raiser will bet with overcards but some will slow down when middle cards flop. If you thought this guy would bet almost every time then I like the checkraise. If not, betting out has the advantages of putting pressure on the players caught between you and the pre flop raiser. I don’t think a middle pair/running straight draw type hand can (or will) call here.
3. “Was I correct in betting the turn?”
Note that by checkraising the flop in such a way that you seem to be attempting to narrow the field, you almost eliminate the possibility that you have the flush or a straight draw. When the turn comes a connected diamond, a tricky player may put a move on you with a hand you still beat. So if this lineup (especially seat eight or the button) were tricky, I would probably check and see what happens. My intention would be to fold to a bet by seat eight or nine and a raise by either the button or the preflop raiser. I would call a bet from any single player. I would probably overcall against two opponents but it is close.
4. “Was my fold correct?”
If you call the turn raise you close the betting getting over fourteen to one. I would call unless the flop turn aggressor in seat eight is not the least bit tricky and the button is a LOL (little old lady) who would be afraid to reraise with anything but a nut flush. Of course another diamond probably ruins you but you may get in a spot to pick off a single bettor who is continuing with a semi-bluff/bluff on the river.
Anyway, I hope the server is responding fast enough today that you get lots of responses.
Regards,
Rick
Another very good post, Rick.
I agree with almost everything you have said except that perhaps I would lead bet the turn as Jim did. I also like Jim's reasons for betting the turn.
When the button coldcalls the turn raise, you can essentially put him on a singleton Ace of Diamonds draw. Thus, the real question is whether seat No. 8 is capable of putting a move on Jim. I assume that Seat No. 8 knows that Jim probably did not raise with a flush draw on the flop. I also think that Jim should realize that No. 8 also does not have a flush because he likely would not have bet into the preflop raiser on the flop with his draw. It seems to me that No. 8 either has a set or is making a move on Jim.
I probably pay off the turn and river assuming no Diamond, Ace or something equally scary.
Tough hand and spot to be in for sure.
You need to have a reason to raise. Sounds to me like you may be throwing out raises without any real justification for them.
While you may be correct in saying that this particular player would not bet a straight draw on the flop, he sure could be betting a hand like QJ on the flop which gives him a straight on the end. You simply cannot raise on the end here as it's too easy for your opponent to:
a. Have a better hand and call or reraise
b. Fold if he was bluffing
The only reason why you would theoretically raise here would be to cause him to throw away a hand like Q,T which just ain't gonna happen often enough to make the raise profitable.
I also think that you should throw away your hand when he reraises the river.
BTW, that reraise by your opponent was also a suspect play.
You didn't say how many people called the aggressive players raise so I'll just assume all did. If this is the case, then I think the Hero should definetly raise and I don't think the decision is close.
Well, the flop is easy: Raise
Preflop, I am in but I would think that the decision is close.
Mike,
Your assumption is correct. All limpers and one blind called so there were fourteen bets in the pot before the flop.
Regards,
Rick
#1 I call preflop
#2 I let this hand go. This is going to be a real chip bleeder if I hit a Q. The collective outs against me are almost infinite. J9 is a favorite of many passive players, also the overcards if they hit.
When I play this I know to drop it if I don't hit the flop big (ie. str8, flush ,draws, 2 pair.) Maybe it's from past bad expierences with this hand but I don't even consider calling.
Question 1: Does anyone disagree with the preflop call and why?
The way you described the scenerio it sounds as if the cut-off raised to try and get the tight button out. I would call with QTs with 8 players. I'm not quite sure about the math but 16 small bets is $320 pot. I figure that's laying pretty good odds if the flop hits you.
Question 2: What should Hero do on the flop and is it a close decision?
This isn't even close. I would raise. Everyone should fold and I think you win it here. If the raiser re-raises then you might have issues with your kicker, but it's a chance I would take against that type player. You're calling down to the river unless you spike a Q or T then you're raising again.
Stephen
Six months ago if you had asked me this question, I would say fold pre-flop rather than pay two bets to take a flop with Q-T suited since the cutoff is supposed to have a real hand when he raises after several players limp in. Today, I would probably call although I don't like it. But based on what you say about the cutoff and the game in general, I would call and pray no one limp re-raises.
Our hero must raise the cutoff's flop bet and it is not even close. He could easily have the best hand and he must protect his hand with a raise. Our hero must make everyone who has any piece of that board pay two bets to take off a card since they will usually be getting great pot odds to do so if they only have to pay one bet. By forcing them to pay two bets some of them may incorrectly fold and,if not, at least you are getting more money in the pot when you have the best hand.
I haven't read any of the other responses, but it seems pretty straightforward to me.
1.) QTs on the button against a bunch of limpers in a loose, but not very aggressive game, and a loose-aggressive raiser in the cutoff is an easy call in my mind.
2.) Our Hero simply MUST raise on the flop, IMHO. By your own description of him, the cut-off is likely to bet with virtually anything once it gets checked around to him, so our hero is raising for value here with what is quite likely to be the best hand. And he definately wants to let any hands that missed the flop have a good opportunity to fold now before they either get ahead of him or pick up a reasonable draw. If one of the limpers calls the two bets cold, or checkraises, then our hero will want be more cautious on the turn, but at least it will help him define his opponents hand.
Now I'll go see what everybody else thinks....
1. Personally, I would not call preflop. I would be reasonably certain and fearful that there would be multiple hands out that beat the Q10. The suited nature of this hand does not, in my opinion, add that much to its value. Against that many players, higher cards and pairs play better. This hand could be a massive dog if either card pairs by a better kicker.
2. However, if I did call, I would raise the flop bet trying to cut down on the number of callers seeing the turn. Even if I am beaten on the flop, I stand a much better chance to draw out a winner with less opponents. I would also be almost looking for an excuse to muck it if one of the limpers check raises for a second raise. About the only hand that would not be striking fear in my heart would be the initial raiser.
haven't read the other posts yet, but i believe the way the hand came dowm pre-flop you should have reraised. you stated that you didn't re-raise because you were out of posisition and nobody would have gotten out.
I'm not so sure, since most of the players would be facing two more bets to see the flop. The button would be staying. If you reraise pre-flop, then your second question is answered since you would bet out on the flop.
You said that if you had three bet pre flop it would have gotten rid of no one. If this is the case I play it exactly the same as you. I think you must bet the turn. This is where I win a lot of of pots as the str8 draws underpairs and other crap will fold. If I play it anyway else it's check and call.
Winger
1) I muck pre flop. I obviously would've loved to get in this pot but not with Q-10 UTG to a raise.
2) This type of board is why I muck pre-flop. Now I have top weak pair. If I was involved I definitely raise here.
I used to imagine flopping the str8/flush with these cards and it was a big bleeder. Now I imagine this type of flop and I save many bets.
Winger
1) I muck pre flop. I obviously would've loved to get in this pot but not with Q-10 UTG to a raise.
2) This type of board is why I muck pre-flop. Now I have top weak pair. If I was involved I definitely raise here. Not even close.
I used to imagine flopping the str8/flush with these cards and it was a big bleeder. Now I imagine this type of flop and I save many bets.
Winger
I haven't had time to read your post in detail, but have a quick comment on this one part:
"What happens when I get a small piece of the flop, e.g. one AKQJT cards and two small cards flop and I have middle or bottom pair. Your book says to ignore the top card but when I bet out or check raise with middle pair I find that I am getting raised by the lady and many times end up calling raises and bets with a mediocre hand. I have no clue whether I am beat at that point in the hand, she is betting a draw, or she has a hand weaker than mine. Should I just grit my teeth and check and call when I am raised or re-raised and have middle pair or less or should I raise and re-raise as John Feeney describes in his "Out on the Edge" Chapter?"
Note that in the hand in that essay I never had a pair, only a draw. I didn't have a hand I could hope would win in a showdown (without improvement). So I couldn't take a check-call approach. Here you're talking about having a pair. In that case you can often just check-call and let her hang herself with bluffs and semi-bluffs. Nevertheless, you can *sometimes play more aggressively, but should have a sense of where you're at to do so. Of course the more outs you have, the more value in semi-bluffing. But generally, with a hand like middle pair, when she's betting but you don't know where you're at (are having trouble reading her hand, but know she tends to bet/bluff aggressively), the check-call approach may be better as it will subject you to fewer difficult decisions.
BTW, in the past I found analyzing the play of specific troublesome opponents, and deciding how to play against them, just as you're doing here, to be very valuable in my poker education.
1. It is close. The value of your call is deception. But there is also value in getting more money in the pot. I would say you are playing incorrectly if you always call or always reraise in this situation. You should do some of both.
2. Yes. If you are sure someone will bet, you should check raise.
3. It depends on your opponents. Are they capable of bluff and semibluff raises? If they are, you should check and call for a single bet or check/fold for a cold raise. If they are not, you should play it as you did.
4. Yes.
William
Medium Stakes Hold'em
August 2000 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo