![[Two Plus Two Publishing]](/images/2+2.gif)
I think the software only has pot- and no-limit in the tournament version. Is that right? That would make it less helpful (though still of some limited use) for someone interested in live game play.
Ace of Spades has ring game pot limit hold'em and omaha. It may also have stud. I have used the hold'em. One part is a teaching program that gives you suggestions. The other is a competitive play where you can compare your play of each hand with a pro, Roy. You can also vary the players, from a caller to an agressive. I found it useful. One lesson the program teaches is to respect pot sized bets on the river by solid players. I also noticed that the pro, Roy, is very agressive with pairs, in position or not. The program also keeps excellent statistics for you.
By the way, excellent book. John.
board showing t,9,8 and you have draw at the low end??not knowing all of your cards, first thing I think of is---why did you see flop with cards like that--especially in pot limit??? Jim
It seemed to me that the cards worked together fairly well except for A-9 off. Table somewhat loose and also passive before the flop. Five players at 4AM. I tried to run out the big stack at the flop by backing my trips as strongly as I could. So, with ten outs I called his bet when he hit the straight. I only had two hundred left, so ...
Is it customary to limit the amount you can bet to the pot in PL Omaha? Most rule books I have read say that PL betting can be a pot sized call and then a raise. This particular club does not allow that. So, I bet 250 to protect my hand when I would have liked to have bet 500. This may have kept the big stack out.
You got very fortunate with this hand.
You should not play J9s UTG because you can get stuck with both a worse hand and no position.
I would have gone all in on the flop. You were definitely going all the way with your draws. With $500 in the pot, you can't just call $125 because if you miss the turn, your not getting odds anymore if someone bets the turn hard.
WOW! I'm amazed at the way this hand went down and some of the responses. First, depending on the game (ie: alot of preflop raisers or limpers) I don't agree with everyone else that limping UTG is a bad play. This is pot limit! It's all about limping, hitting big and making a bundle. With a $10 blind I like the hand alot. You may very well get 4-5 limpers on average. If someone does raise you may get 4-5 callers of $30. I still like the hand! If it get's too costly preflop, you waste a mere $10.
You definately got the best of the flop. I would have check raised and pushed it in after the $125 bet. You don't get many draws this good and may pick it up right there.
But the amazing part was that you bet out $300 on the turn when the 9 hit and won it there. The only explanation is that (1) the "liar" did NOT have AJ (if he did then he is sickeningly weak and you should have made a killing off him as he deserved to lose) and (2) everyone put you on a set of 9's (which would be unlikely since you'd never call $125 with an underpair)
The 9 as part of a straight is also ridiculus as you'd not likely call $125 with a gutshot. You were very lucky that these idiots weren't paying attention. I agree that the bet on the turn smelled like a semi-bluff. If I were there, you'd have been called! I do think you should have won the hand, I'm just surprised at how you did it!
Keep playing hard!
Background - mathematics/computer science, undergrad Carnegie Mellon, grad UIUC (coursework complete for M.S. but never finished thesis), employed for several years each at Bellcore and NASA doing artificial intelligence research, beaucoup blackjack experience all over the world, started playing poker around 1991, left job to become professional degenerate gambler several years ago, getting into sports betting, currently living in Las Vegas, used to live in LA and SF Bay Area.
-Abdul
Dam! You gots smarts! It seems like every mathmatics is gambling and us musicians are left to tend bars! I haven't even gotten to your website yet, but I'm curious how much, if at all, do you use computers in your research?
MMMMmmm! That is going to take a while to digest! I just got back from your site and I'm traveling to chat with my poker buddy in a few days. I think we'll go over what we can and ask you tons of questions. I have started a poker log and journal and one of the things I'd like to do is to catalogue every single hand in HE by taking general playing notes on them. It'd take a long time to do, but It'd be interesting results. Since there are few starting hands in this game, I think that a guide to each and every hand is about due.
Before you do such labor intensive work, see poker strategies, rules, and guides, specifically the tables of hand domination and the article by Abdul, describing the limp reraise strategy for LAG. It would take you years to deduce what is presented there.
Here's a preflop situation that come up at the Sunday NL game at AJ's that I thought was neat.
The game was surprisingly revved up considering the line up. No severely soft spots at the table, but chips were moving anyway. The guy to my immediate right was shortstacked with $400 and playing super tight. I was playing in extra extra low gear as well at the time, with a big stack.
On this hand, I was in middle position and both the players in the blinds were extremely good preflop-robbers-from-the-blind. They do it with just the right frequency, a touch to often that they actually "have it" every time, but too infrequently to gamble at picking them off with a good but not excellent hand.
In other words, this was a bad time to limp, since they knew I could easily be robbed in my current mindset.
The guy on my right open limped. Now it's all different! He was protecting MY hand from the robbers because he is likely to limp with a hand that he is likely to come over the top with if one of the blinds raises.
So I limped too, in safety. One other player limped, and when it came around to the blinds, both of them in turn eyed the situation carefully before deciding to just call.
No bets were called after the flop. But one was made, by the opener. When everyone folded, he showed JJ.
Nifty.
Tommy
You're right, a nifty concept. I'll think about this one for days. This might give me a whole new line of thinking on seat selection.
It could also work in other ways. If the blinds are not quite bright enough to not raise the guy, then you can dump a mediocre hand or slow play a monster. It would be cute if the blind tried to steal over his JJ and you had AA.
I'm curious. If you were to rank the players at the table, how would you rank the limper, the two blinds, and yourself?
It DOES go that way sometimes. Typically the only player a robber has to worry about having a high pair is the limpy opener. But several times I (and the guys I learned this from) having gotten paid off big by limping behind a limper with AA or KK, to trap the robbers. This works when the limper is someone who limps often and plays lots of hands. The robbers in the blinds need not fear his big pair, since it's very unlikely he has one. And they don't put me on one, because I surely would have raised with AA with a limper already in, right? Well, not always.
This limp is not as dangerous as it seems because let's say several others limp in too and now I'm sitting there with AA against five completely unknown hands, and I'm out of position. No problem. I gear down mentally and I'm ready to muck my hand. No way I'll lose a significant amount unless an ace comes or maybe a nut flush draw. This is a classic case of Brunsonism, when aces win a small pot or lose a big one.
As to rating players, there's no point in a rating that compares a player to the field. All that matters is how each player rates against me. In other words, a big-long-range-loser can be "better" than me when his game happens to match of well for him against mine. And visa versa. The players in the blinds are players that I rarely bust and they've busted me plenty of times. The limper was a guy who I have a reverse record against.
Tommy
I had a situation arise this weekend that falls under the last post that Tommy made and would love to have some feedback on this small problem. I was involved in a six handed no-limit holdem and omaha hi game with 5-10-25 blinds and none other than Ray Zee sitting across the table from me. (a small side note that I came to this game mostly just to meet and play with Ray and he is both an incredible player and a joy to have in a game, we are all very fortunate to be able to read anything that he shares with us about poker or gambling in general) That said... the stack sizes varied from just under a thousand to just over six thousand with myself having about 5200 at the time of this hand. The game contained a couple of loose fairly passive players and usually consisted of some preflop action and a big bet (especially in holdem) taking down the pot on the flop or turn. I pick up two aces one off the big blind and limp the loose player to my left raises to 75 and the small and middle blind call and the action is to me, what to do? Two of the callers are short stacks with about 1000 and 1500 in front of them, but the middle blind has me covered and at this point I couldn't put any of them on a hand if I had to. I used the loose player to my left to protect and enhance my possibilites with AA (he had been doing all game for me) and was left with a tough decision on whether to limp again and as Tommy said gear down and prepare to muck or lay a huge trap (hopefully not on myself) and maximize with this hand, or obviously re-raise and define my hand to the table. I'll post the ensuing events after some opinions on what the best course of action to take are would be. Thanks. J.Brown P.S. Ray if you have any comments or interesting thoughts from that night of poker I'd love to see them or e-mail my at the above address. thanks again
I don't like to limp with aces here, there are too many players and too many potential hitchhikers. I would like too get head up, but the two short stacks worry me.
On the other hand, if I am looking for an opportunity to slow play aces (for example, to demonstrate that I can do it), this might be a good chance for the same reasons: the short stacks make it conceivable that I will show the hand down.
Another situational play might be to bet more than half of the raiser's stack if there's a chance he'll find it threatening. If he drops the small blind's call goes from 2:1 to close to 1:1, and you may get it head up with the middle blind, which to me is ideal. I would have to be there to know if this makes any sense at all.
Nine times out of ten I just move it all in and take the three hundred.
Basically I agree with Phat Mack (is that pronounced "fat" ?) and try to take it right here. But I might raise 500 and see what happens.
I think about this situation and decide to take it right there by raising 1000. It works and I almost get the loose raiser to my left to put in the rest of his money with KcQc??!! The part that became interesting is the middle blind showed JJ and mucked and then asked the dealer to run out the cards. (private game and it is done very quickly) The board ends up reading JxxxA and the ensuing discussion is whether or not I get to stick around to the river or not if we both see the flop. What scenarios would cause a fold before the river other than the obvious 5000 bet on the flop? Do you see the river with AA and no possible straights or flushes in this situation? This could have obviously been a huge pot and win for me if the hand is played out differently and I had been dominating this player the entire night so I might have gotten stubborn and not folded under almost any circumstance. Comments and Help appreciated. J.Brown
Hard to say without being there, but in general if a guy calls a huge bet before the flop, he's got AA or KK, awaiting further developments in both cases. I'd have a hard time putting him on JJ.
Tommy
My guess is if I have AA and the flop comes Jxx, it all goes in on the flop. Depending on what happened before the flop, if he bets into me he could have anything from AJ to an over pair. If I lead, I go all in.
Incidentally, this same situation happened to me last summer. I had the AA. I bet 500 before the flop, my opponent hit a set of J's on the flop, we got the remaing 2000 in, and I lost.
After the flop, my opponent criticised my play. He said my 500 bet wasn't enough to get him to drop JJ, and I should have bet him off his hand. I disagreed: when I have AA, I want a call from JJ every time.
Again, stack size is everything. A general rule of thumb is that if player A knows or very much suspects that player B has a big pair and will bet the flop, player can profitably call ANY raise preflop if the stack sizes are 10x the raise or more.
So in your example, the raise was 1/4 the stack sizes (meaning the smallest stack). Not a good call. If you had each had $5000, and he thought you would stay committed postflop, then calling $500 would have been reasonable. Oddly, 2-2 is "better" than JJ in these situations, and QQ and KK are not good at all because you can flop a set and maybe not get paid.
Tommy
Presuming the other players had me covered, I'd move all-in if my stack was less than about 3X the pot. Otherwise I'd probably raise half my stack and give someone a chance to get strung out.
Tommy
NL holdem @ binions 1,2,5 blinds. My general philosophy on draws is: if I am drawing to the nuts and it is checked to me I check hoping that someone gets a free card hits the draw along with me and I break them. I have had this happen several times. If I am drawing small or ignorant I bet hoping to take it down right there knowing I have outs and position if called.
The Hand: Tight UTG raises to $25 gets called in 1 place I call on the button with AcQc BB calls. We each have about $1k. Flop is 8h9cTc. It is checked to me I check my nut draw. Turn is Ah, checked to me again I bet $100 UTG check raises me $400 what would you do?
With the two tone board on the turn, your opponent should fear any club or heart on the river. Obviously, if it's a club, you can win with the nuts. Do you think you have a big enough stack and a tight enough image to blow him away on the river if a heart comes?
If yes, then I'd call. You should have 9 outs to the nut club flush. The 3 remaining jacks may be enough for you to make a higher straight (though one of these jacks is likely in your opponent's hand). The 10 remaining hearts should allow you to steal the pot if your opponent is capable of laying down a big straight to an apparent flush.
My only real fear with this plan is if your opponent has JQ of hearts and will bet out on the river if a heart comes. (or if he's just too stubborn to fold to a big bluff) If you can count on the success of the bluff, then half the deck on the river should help you win this pot.
5-5 PL Holdem game. 9 players at the table. Everybody involved in this pot has over $1,500 in front of them. I'm in the small blind with the 5&6 of diamonds. UTG calls and one late player (LP) calls. I check. BB checks.
Flop comes 7d 10s 3d
I check. BB checks. UTG bets 20. He automatically bets in this position. LP raise 20 making it 40 to me. I figure him for Ace-ten or a set(he might have Aces, but Jacks through Kings he would have raised pre-flop). I have a weak flush draw and a gutshot straight draw. I've only got my blind invested so far.
Call, fold or raise? And why?
I called. So did the BB and UTG folded.
Turn is the 2c.
Check. Check. Bet $40. $40 seems to me to be a weak bet. This confirms A-10 in my mind, but makes possible Ace-7. Again, should I call, raise or fold? And why?
If I raise, I am only worried about the BB. I'm pretty sure the bettor will fold to any pressure. If the BB calls a raise I don't know where I stand on the river and if he re-raises me I obviously have to fold. A call says I'm drawing to a flush (or maybe a straight). Is a fold here right?
I call. BB calls. Turn is the Queen of diamonds.
Now what? There is 280 in the pot, but I don't know what the BB has. I hate making my hand and not knowing where I stand.
I bet 75. Here was my thinking. I might have the best hand. If the BB has missed then he will fold and I'll probably be paid off by LP. If I'm beat by the BB, but he doesn't have the nuts, then he'll just call and LP will either call or fold. If I check and the BB bets the pot then I'll either make a crying call (maybe win, maybe lose) or I'll fold. My bet was mostly to ensure that I get a showdown. Obviously if I bet 75 and the BB raises the pot, I'll fold.
Thoughts? Other than fold on the flop, which I will do sometimes and won't do other times. I'll post the results later.
Both players called. The BB had the J-9 of diamonds for a higher flush and LP had J-10o.
These were the worst cards LP showed down all night. As he showed them, which he didn't have to do, he said "nice acting you two." I think this was because I took a moment to figure out where I was on the river.
The BB told me after the hand was over that he was indeed going to bet big on the river until I bet out. Then he didn't know where he stood.
So, my last "defensive" bet was good. But judging from results, I should not have been in the hand at all. I have four outs the whole way (any 4). But automatically folding this on the flop everytime seems rather weak-tight. I also am thinking that a pot sized turn bet might have won it for me.
Depending on your image, I think the play would be to check-raise the pot on the turn. Checking from the blind in an unraised pot means you could have 72o, or any other garbage 2 pair hand. The only obstacles I could see is if the LP was underplaying a set to string you guys along (unlikely), or the BB was attempting to trap with a similar garbage hand.
Even with his flush draw, the BB would probably have a tough time calling. After all, this is a play you could make with Ad2d as a semi-bluff. The LP would almost certainly have to dump it.
The problems with calling to chase your draws are that you're not sure if there is a better diamond draw out there, and that even if you hit your 4 for the nuts, you're very unlikely to get paid off for very much.
The only other option is see is folding on the turn.
In your 1st post you said that LP might be on a set. Though possible I don't think he'd have played it that soft with a four flush possible. My first instinct was to re-raise the flop (full pot bet). By putting in the 2nd raise here you're indicating a set that you don't want to go any further. You'd make it extremely hard for any other flush draw to call and most likely would get LP to fold right there. If anyone calls you have 1 or 2 draws to the flush depending on the action. This of course is a knee knocker if you get a call on the flop but I think your best chance to win was there. A pot-size bet on the turn would also make them assume a set but they might wonder why you'd wait and then may call. By calling the flop and the turn you definately told them you were on a flush draw. I do like the amount of the bet on the river though. It probably got you off as cheap as possible.
Keep playing hard!
Anybody here play PL Stud? I haven't seen too many posts and I was wondering why? Is it just not a very popular game?
Thanks! Dru
Here in the UK virtually all poker is pot-limit and some (though not much) Stud is spread. I basically learned how to play (to an extent) in PL Stud tournaments.
The problem is that unless that stacks are deep you are invariably all-in by 5th street and the later streets don't really come into play. In cash games you often have enough chips to play though and it can be quite lucrative. The bigger tournaments are also well worth playing.
Stud is however not spread very much at all generally (I think my local club spreads it much more than any other for some reason) and is a distant third behind Hold-Em and Omaha.
Andy.
Well, 8h9hThJd may not be the best hand to chase 2 pairs of aces with, but it's not too bad: AcAs9c2d 30.5% AhAdxx 29.5% 8h9hThJd 40%
5d6d7h8h does a little better winning 47% versus 26% 26% respectively.
If 8h9hThJd is up against AcAs9c2d and KhKdxx then of course the aces go up dramatically to 46%, kings 22% and 89TJ wins 32%. If it is the black kings then the Aces go down 2% and the 89TJ goes up 2%.
Very interesting! I wouldn't have guessed, well DIDN'T guess 89TJ was nearly so well placed. Clearly, it was an easy call even if the other two hands were AAxx and KKxx (because of the dead money).
Did you calculate this or do it on a simulator?
If you're not already too bored with the numbers, what is the answer if the Ah is suited up?
RFL.
See my analysis above for a few othe match-ups. It is tiltled Omaha matchups for Fossil. i did it with a simulator.
nt
My first thought was that JK had an easy call getting more than 2-1 if he really put you both on aces of some sort. The analysis seems to prove that. Here are some runs I did using 25,000 hands on Poker Probe.
In all cases I gave you Ac9c2dAs and gave JK 8d9hThJh. I varied the other AA hand as shown below.
Run 1. The AA has a monster AdAhKdQh. Win %, including the shares of the numerous splits for the AA hands are as follows: AA92- 31.4%, AAKQ double-suited 33.5% and 89TJ 35.1%.
Run 2. The other AA has a weaker 54o has his side cards. AA92 ss- 24.5%, AA54o 25.6% 89TJ- 49.6%
Run 3. The ultramonster AAKK double-suited. AA92- 28.8%, AAKK ds- 39.7% and 89TJ 31.6%
Run 4. This should be as close to the worst it gets for the 89TJ hand. I gave the other guy AAJT, with his non-heart Ace suited. AA92- 35.4%, AAJT ss- 34.6% 89TJ- 30.0%
Given the money that JK already had in the pot and the fact that he put you both on AAxx, his call was correct.
For fun, let's say he was wrong and give the other guy another big hand that has him more dominated, like KhKdQhJd. In that case, his equity falls to 29% and yours goes up to nearly 47%.
How about JJKK double-suited? Assuming it is diamond and spades, leaving JK's flush draw live, the 89TJ equity is still 29%.
Bottom line is that even if his read is wrong he is still getting money odds. If anyone can think of a worse scenario, they will have to run it theirself as I am off to dinner.
I didn't necessarily think Jack's last call was wrong (due to the dead money, as you say). I just wish he hadn't caught, or that he decided to play conservative and folded anyway.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, your original post said something that has sort of worried me for days now--afraid it would give your hand away if you raised before the flop--. Seems to me that the hand may be OK to call with, but not really worth a raise. If flop does not hit your flush or aces, what are you left with? I like a hand that has more ways to hit agood draw on the flop. Having played with Keller,I think that his raise tells you he has a hand he wants to play, likely a wrap...after that flop he is there till the end. good luck, Jim
First I apologize for the length...
Are there any opinions on showing cards to opponents? I promise I'm not bitter about getting beat on these two hands tonight but in the past I have shown other players a winner, or a huge favorite, and gotten them to lay down a draw that would have won...
This is a 1-5 spread limit game 1&2 blinds, I would define this game as loose in the past, but it has tightened up...
I get KK in the BB and am up against two raises, I just call because the player who re-raises is ultra-tight and to be honest I thought he had aces.
Flop : J-9-4 rainbow, I check raise and get two callers
Turn : K I bet he calls, river is a ten and his pocket queens make a straight.
Earlier, I showed someone a made flush, 89, on the turn who had top two, aces and tens and he folded, another guy with the King of clubs calls and we see a ten pair the board on the river. If I didn't show he most likely wins the pot.
Do you give too much away by simply showing your cards in rare cases like this? I'm not advocating using this reguraly or even more than once, but people who are calling with 2-6 outs in a large pot can only call you on the river if they can win. Ex. set vs. a flush draw, gutshot etc... A bet on the end won't net more money if the flush misses.
2nd Hand. I have 45s on button and limp in and call a raise from SB.. Flop comes 4-4-8 it is checked to me and I bet. Turn is a blank maybe a 2 but puts two spades on board. SB bets into me and I raise, SB calls. River is a 10s giving SB tens full I check it down thinking SB wanted to re-raise.
What does one lose by showing trips on the turn to a raiser? In this case nobody would have called a 2 outer, correct? I realize stronger opponents might "put a move on you", but I don't think you lose bets against weaker opponents. Showing also is a form of protection in a game that has loose callers who will routinely call all the way with gutshot or equiv. Also, I know showing cards, only 1 usually, is often routine in NL games, any thoughts would be appreciated on this topic.
If you do this, you lose the bets for when they call with their 2-outer and miss. If you have trips against an overpair, you want them to call with an overpair, because they will miss over 20 times for every time they hit.
Don't let a couple of outdraws make you lose sight of the big picture.
Binions 1,2,5 PLHE. all fold to cutoff who limps i am on the button and raise to $25 w/red aces. All fold back to cutoff who calls w/o hesitation we both have over 1k. this dude likes to call with suited connectors but will fold or re-raise otherwise. Flop is 2h3c5h he checks I bet $50 he calls. Turn is 4s, giving me the low straight. He checks, i get a bad feeling and check behind him. River is Qh he bets out $150 I fold. He rakes emotionless but out of the corner of my eye I see him give a friend at the table a look like, "oooh I wanted a call". Would you have played it different? I cant help thinking I folded a split pot. I believe that since I had the Ace of hearts I could have come over the top and taken it down if I had any guts, or is that stupidity?
You maybe should have called the river, but probably not. No way you should have raised, unless you were perfectly capable of raising preflop with some hand containing a 6 (A6s, 66, 67, etc.). If you raise and he can't give you credit for a 6 or 67, then he folds if he has nothing, calls if he has an A, and reraises if he has a 6 or 67 (or is bluffing again). In none of these scenarios do you make any extra money by raising.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg, there was, I believe three hearts on board and Jim had the Ace.
Jim, I think your play on the river is fine, but, even with the low straight, on the turn I would still bet. He needs a six in his hand to beat you and an Ace to split. I like your odds.
x
dont forget the hearts, greg.
No way you should have raised, unless you were perfectly capable of raising preflop with some hand containing a 6 (A6s, 66, 67, etc.).
the old omaha representing the nut flush with the bare ace trick.
I'm a pretty successful middle-high limit holdem player. I dunno how to play 7 card stud at all. Can anyone gimme an Idea of a good starting hand and some of the concepts involved? Thanx a lot. Im kinda interested now that i won a nice little sum playing that recently. i think i was lucky. any input appreciated.
I'm going to sound like a broken record, but 7csfap from 2+2 and the Konstantin Othmer book are the way to go, if you study them, and have good card sense, you'll do fine.
I'd also read Mason's post about why HE and 7cs players seem to do poorly at the other game. I learned HE first and 7cs was my worst game. It always seemed like I had to fold. After reading 7 Card Stuf for Advanced Players, I realized that there are a ton of situations where there is enough money in the pot to justify calling for a few cards and seeing what happens. I also had trouble with not watching more than one board of cards, remembering what cards were dead, and certain judgement calls. Some of the plays are profitable when you can get the pot heads-up, which is a huge judgement call. Recently, I've gotten a little board with HE and I like 7cs the more. I still have some of those problems that I started out with, but I'm getting much better the more I actively practice.
ummm...i just ordered two stud books... but before that arrives can anyone gimme an idea of a good starting hand? Like in holdem we all want Pocket Aces or kings in the hole. Besides a 3 of a kind what is a good starting hand? Is a runt A-K-3 playable? Help!
Stick to pairs and 3 flushes mostly, till you get to read the books. AK3 is not generally playable, AKQ is if the cards are live, but is still surprisingly marginal. A good deal depends on the other cards that are up.
As DeadBart suggested, 3 overcards are almost nothing at 7 stud. 7 stud is a game of PAIRS. Period. Other good starting hands but with a lot of limpers (that is where you aren't in early position and the pot is not raised) are 3 straight cards (the best is 10-J-Q) or 3 flush but pay attention to play Big flush cards that could give you a Big pair along the way. It's superflous to add that the cards you need must be LIVE. The very best starting hand is definitely a rolled up trips (but you are 424 to 1 dog to get it)
Summary:
PAIRS: Many players in the pot= you can play with ALL pairs better if the third card is an ACe or a KIng (2-A)2, (K-J)J etc, and better if your pair is hidden (7-7)8 for example. If you have a small pair (2 through 6) you need that your cards are ALL LIVE Shorthanded pot: enter only with big pairs 10----A and pay attention to a raise coming from an overcard
3 to a straight: as general rule of thumb play only 8-9-10, 9-10-J and 10-J-Q, better if 2 card are suited (excellent if all cards are suited-----dreams)
3 flush cards: abandon 3 small flush cards and play 3 flush cards only if you have at least a big card in your starting hand. Books say that you can play a flush draw in 3rd only if you see in all other boards a maximum of 2 cards of your suit. In many sessions I noted that it's better to enter the pot if you see max 1 your suited card in other hands.
If you have other specific questions write them.
Hope this helps
Marco
This helps a whole bunch...But i have several mroe questions...
Preflop, i've played a lot like holdem...in that if im last to act and everyone has folded I iwll raise the person who"brings it in". Its been succesfful thus far, but i wanna know if its effective or not.
I tend to play very timidly which is not good in this game. When is a good time to raise? What kind of cards are good on 4th street. When should I stop chasing a flush? How about if you're holding a 3 straight, when should u give up the draw? This is implying that 1 or 2 max cards have come out that could have helped ya?
Is it wise to fold low pairs when an Ace or King has raised, or is it wise to call?
What does live mean, that the cards are visible but other players? I think thats what it means but again i'm not sure.
What kind of cards can you call an average player's raise with? Is a hand like KQ10 playable preflop? Im excited about my book coming, but would appreciate another other info i can recevie to inmprove my game.
if you're just starting i think the best thing to do is to muck junk as quickly as possible on 4th street - it will save you a bunch of money
e.g. starting with 789 and you catch a 3 pass - similarly if you start with 2s up to 8s and fail to trip up or make 2 pair on 4th st and there's action - pass - chasing is tempting but even more expensive than at holdem coz there are more rounds
Yellow, couple of thoughts:
Raising if you're last to the bring-in is frequently a good play assuming the antes are enough to make it worthwhile, and the player is weak, don't pop it too much though. In games with observant players I tend to pass on this sometimes because it gives you a tighter image that you can use to steal down the road when you do have garbage like a K up with nothing in the hole. Again, also, live cards matter. Raising to steal with a J up in last position when there are two j's out can get you in trouble agaist strong players.
A good time to raise is if you need to get the pot heads up or at least knock out players, this is particlarly true on 4th street if you start with say, A-Q-7 suited and catch an ace or queen on 4th. And, if you're in the lead, pop it, free cards will kill you in this game and a lot of the casino games are weak-loose so you'll get a feeder line of callers. If you've got the goods, bet 'em, if you want a free card, that's a great play too, particulalry in weak tight games where you can raise on 4th for 1/2 a bet, and get a free 5th st. card if you know that it will be checked to you. Also, establishing a table image as a check raiser helps with this too.
Live cards means that you can't see the cards you need, i.e. if you have 9-10-j-q on 4th, where are the kings and 8's? And, something to keep in mind is, if you have that hand and someone with a king up is popping it, they likely have kings meaning more than just the one king you see is dead, hand reading is important in the live card area since you can gain extra info.
Marco,
One of my favorite stud hands is 3 small flush cards, with no other of same suit out, even better if none of the same rank out either, and getting the bring in cheep. Then to get a four flush on the next card, I'll call with a few people in, raise when I make it.
Sometimes 3 little flush is profitable but not vs good players and probably is an easy read hand
Marco
I think some of the advice people give is way too tight and as I noted I suspect some dont know the odds.
If your flushes are easy to read you aren't playing them correctly! I fyou wait until you make a flush to raise you are costly yourself money! (Eg if you make a totally live 4 flush on 4th you should jam away unless of course someone has paired theri door card...), if make a 4 flush on 4th and it totally live you will make a flush about 51% of the time, so basically you are winning half of the bets that go in. (You usually have more ways to win so its better than that). Those who think 3 flushes are not profitable against good players are stoned!!
On how far to go w/your draws, you often should chase all the way to the river w/4 flushes and openened draws unless someone's board is super scary or it appears someone else has a better drawing hand than you do. This is really important.
There are some hands ,which contrary to what was written, are correct to take all the way to the river unless someone's board is superscary. (eg any pair w/a A kicker vs a known pair (less than A's of course)) goes tot he river unless things get scary. (This is ofcourse if it is heads up).
Note that you need to find other hands to jam w/other than these otherwise you may become too predictable...
ANother important point is that if you plan to call on 5th you should be prepared to go to the river.
ALso extremely impoprtant is to consider the price the pot is offering you. YOu'd be surprised how many hands it is correct to call w/... (and you'd also be surprised how often you are going to be told that you didn't have odds to call when you did!!!!)
LIve cards are of paramount inportance.
Alot of how you play depends on who you are playing w/ and the ante structure.
If you are just beginning and not playing a terribly high ante game you pbly should play very tightly and play big pairs, big 3 flushes and big straights, and pair and over cards. Again if your hand is not live you pbly shouldn't play unless its an over pair. to the board. YOu want to play most big pairs heads up, or at least against a small field...
Drawing hands often prefer a big field though at times an over card can make a difference. You can often reraise a raiser with an over card to his probable pair if you have a 3 flush. You can often raise w/this hand. This play often makes an impression on your opponents. They won't believe it if you make a flush (they will mutter and think you are a fish), and now they will pay you off all the way when you have A's while they put you a flush and chase all the way w/their underpairs... blawahahaha!
ALot of hands which you can see cheaply to forth that can improve to big hands are also good if its cheap and unlikely to be raised...
(eg say a hand like 7h8h Tc) if no 9's are out , few hearts are out (and few if any J and 6's). You are looking to catch a 9 and then you are in good shape.
Many stud players even at very high levels have no idea of what the odds of making hands are. No one seems to know that for example openended straight draw on 4th gets there about 1/2 the time (if all you cards are live), a flush draw is a little better. In general alot of people simply assume a big over pair is a favorite against anything which isn't made which is not the case...
That's a start, alot comes from experience.
As far holdem [players don't play stud well and vice versa, i don't quite buy it. The player simply needs to rethink waht is important. Eg in holdem one needs to be paranoid about kickers if you have a big pair, in stud this is rarely an issue as it is unlikely some will have the same pair as you. One needs to learn what is important...
Good luck!
I think you got some good responses here. Play tight while you are learning the game but loosen up your starting standards a little as your skill level increases.
Don't worry if the other players make wise cracks about your tight play , if they have a hand they will play against you , make them pay. Most important , don't get bluffed and call those river bets against you.
In a post below Jim mentions bluffing on the end with a dry ace into a three flush. I wonder how many here have tried this gambit. I know of some who play the dry ace like a bat out of hell (o'neal longson) but it is not a part of my game, am I missing someting?
This also applys to big bluffs when a 4 straight hits and you are sure your opponent does not have it. How many among us have the balls to pull off this coup? I have done it before on the prompting of "super/system" but use it sparingly, How many are regulars at one or more of these bluffs?
Please don't answer "it depends" we all know that.
I make the flush play frequently in Omaha when in games where I've established an unimaginitive image.
I make the play less often in HE. More often on a 3 suited flop, less often on the end. For reasons that I don't fully understand, the play seems to work better on a player I have on a baby flush than it does against a player I have on a set or 2 pair.
Yes I do use this play - but I much prefer it at Omaha as the possibility of multiway hands tends to make people err on the side of caution, but I tend to adhere to the standard bluffing criteria, i.e.
1) Preferably heads-up 2) Opponent is not very weak or tilting and he feels the same way about you. 3) Your action is credible based upon your previous betting and the board in front of you. 4) You have leverage (sorry - I'm basing this on a PL game) - no point bluffing a $300 pot if the guy only has $20 left.
In my experience the amount you bet (again assuming a Pl game) is vital - is it consistent with your past actions? Would you really bet the pot with the nut flush on the river when it's checked to you etc?
I'm starting to realise that in the games that I play in, with very solid players, these are the sort of moves you MUST make if you're to generate any sort of worthwhile profit. The good hands/big pots don't come often enough and I feel I'm just touching the tip of the iceberg. A huge, preternatural, life-crushing iceberg.
Next game Thursday. Sad man or not, I currently can't concentrate on anything else:)
mike cunningham
I use this play every once in a while with lots of success. It's because I have a very tight -you could almost say timid- image in the no limit games I play. My image is the unfortunate result of running very cold everytime I play in this game. But I use it to my advantage when I can.
This allows me to make a couple big bluffs per session and steal a pot or two. I think there are some key factors to making this move:
1: Have a tight, risk-averse image. If you are known as a player who will bluff wildly in this spot, don't make the move. You've already set everyone up to call you when you have it.
2: Don't do it from out of position unless you have a VERY good read that your opponent fears the nuts. There's nothing worse than bluffing big into someone with the nuts. Let him check first. That makes it MUCH more likely he doesn't have it.
3: Don't do it if you've been the aggressor. Here's an example from a pot I took down.
I have TT in late position. The flop comes K high two tone. All check the flop. On the turn, an aggressive player bets about half the pot (around $50 if I remember correctly). He might have a flush draw, a king or middle pair. I just call and everyone else drops.
The river brings a flush card and my opponent checks. I bet about $150 and take it down. He seemed angry about the river card so I think he had a real hand.
My smooth call on the turn allowed me to win. Maybe I had the best hand anyway, and maybe I pushed out the top pair.
If I had been bettng all the way with my TT, the river bet looks a LOT less like I made the hand I am representing.
natedogg
I have an idea for a betting structure for hold ‘em that is a hybrid between limit and no limit. For fun, I dub it "Epstein's Hybrid."
The basic rule is that on any betting round where there are only two players still contesting the pot, the betting does not stop until both players have checked it down twice in succession or one of the players goes all in. Even if there is a bet and a call, the first player may bet one unit again.
For example, assume a $20-$40 hybrid game. On the river if there are only two players left contesting the pot, assume Player 1 bets $40 and Player 2 calls. Player 1 then may bet $40 again and again until Player 2 folds. Even if Player 1 checks and Player 2 checks, Player 1 may bet $40 again. If Player 1 checks, Player 2 checks, and Player 1 checks for the second time, then Player 2 may check to see the showdown or Player 2 may bet.
This structure differs from no limit in many ways, starting with the feature that neither player may bet all of his chips at once. A player may make several bluff bets to represent that he intends to keep betting until one of the players is all in, waiting to see if his opponent shows that he is willing to call all the way. The player need not (an may not) take the risk of putting a lot of chips into the pot at once to show strength. Unusually, Player 2 may even bluff call several times to see if Player 1 will maintain the initiative for more than a few betting rounds. If the money is deep, the implied odds may favor trying bluff calls.
I can think of a few variations. The procedure described above would confer a greater than usual advantage on the player with position. If Player 1 checks twice in succession (thus giving up the opportunity to make sure that the betting continues), Player 2 may decide that Player 1 has shown weakness and thus emboldened, take the initiative. One variation to ameliorate this heavy emphasis on position might be that if a player bets after his opponent checks, the player who bet must lead out on the next round of betting, reversing the players’ relative position.
Another variation might be that whenever there have been say four rounds of bets and calls, then the betting unit doubles. This might be necessary if the money is deep compared to the size of the bets. Otherwise it might take a long time before the players can get all in if they so choose. A variation on this variation might be that the betting unit reverts to the original amount whenever the player with the lead decides to check.
One rule that might be necessary to maintain the game structure would be that if the two players make any verbal agreements not to continue to follow the structure, then regardless of their agreement, there can be but one more betting round of one betting unit. This rule is intended to avoid the problem where one player asks his opponent if he wishes to go all in. The opponent should be protected from having to show weakness by declining the offer.
The reason I suggest that the repeated betting is allowed only when the game is two-handed is to avoid problems of collusion.
What do you think the strategic implications of this hybrid structure would be? Do you think other variations might be necessary to make the game playable?
If this is posted to the wrong forum (since it isn't an existing "High Stakes" game), I hope 2+2 will move it to the right place. Maybe it should be in "General Theory."
-- Marc Epstein © 2001
I am seated to the right of the button with a Kh, 10s. Blinds are $1 and $3. All fold to player 2 seats to the right of me. He is usually a non-aggressive player who has recently been changing his game to a more aggressive style. He raises $10. Player between us calls as do i, all others fold. Me and the raiser each have about $300 in front of us and the player in the middle has about $150.
The flop comes Jc, Qc, Ah. The raiser bets $20 into my nut straight. Other player fold and i decide to just call even though there are 2 clubs on the board (bad move). Turn is 7c. Bettor checks to me and I bet $50. He doesnt't hesitate a second to raise me all in. He is a player i live with and play alot of cards with so i usually can read him pretty well. I figure he has got clubs, but not nut clubs. Then i thought about the ways 5th street couls hurt me. If another club comes then all he needs id one club to take it. Or maybe he hasd trips and a board pair would give him the pot. I show him my cards to see if i can get a reaction, then fold.
The other players at the table looked at me like i was insane to fold my straight. I realize my awful play before the fold was assinine but i thought the fold was pretty solid. Afterwards all the players at the table but one say they would have called him.
Anyone have any suggestions or opinions?
Thanks,
Jim
What am I missing? You think the your friend has clubs and you have no way to beat a flush. You are not committed to the pot, so the fold seems like the only reasonable play. Based on the way the post sounded, it seems like you might have the king of clubs? Even if you do, the fold is right. And the player is all in, so you won't be able to bluff him at any point.
never show the table your cards when you fold a good hand...ever. what you've done is give your observant good opponents at least plays which can be used against you.
1. they noticed your smooth call when you flopped the nut straight. slowplay is ok, but you should not beat yourself for not raising there. your opponent may have had a high pair w/flush draw-he would have called.
2. they noticed you can be taken off a great hand when a scare card comes. if i'm playing against you, and i see a straight/flush come on the turn/river, i will bet the pot knowing you will fold.
tootight
you would have gotten all in with way the best of it. He could have as little as AK.
He could of had the same hand as you, but he was just trying to freeze you out if you had clubs.
taxidriver
Hello all.
I happen to be the player that Jim is referring to. This has been eating him up ever since Sat. night. He keeps asking me what I had. Hate to break your heart Jim, it's not going to happen. One thing that I will say is that when I saw that third club come, I knew he didn't have the flush, and I knew that if I bet his whole stack he would let it go. (the cards that is)
I bet my whole stack... I took it down.
If Jim had gone all in right there on the flop, you would have folded, right?
Well you just answered his question.
natedogg
I had a problem the other day at a club were there was collussion between two players, I played for a while used some tactics to my advantage but then a new player arrived at the table. I noticed that over 95% of his deals meant winning with monster hands such as Four of a Kind, Full House and Straight Flushes. He won over $600. My question is how do you stop someone who is cheating using culling and stacking methods? What defenses can you take?
Report it and walk away from the game!
What is 'culling and stacking' ???????
You get rid of him. Or yourself. If the situation is such that you will be believed and are not risking your health, you say something, and get the guy removed. If it is in a club where you feel you're at risk or nothing good will come of it, you just quit.
Or, you turn into Rambo on the guy, and shoot him in the back of the head. Watch out for jail if you choose this option.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Go to the Archives and find my fairly recent post "Important Cardroom Procedures". This details some procedures which, if followed, will greatly reduce the chance of such shenanigans and will also help the game to run more smoothly in other ways too. Note that I failed to mention counting the deck stub which should be done also. If you play in a regular game in a home or club it would be wise to follow these procedures if you can get the group to start doing it. If you can't achieve this for whatever reason then follow Greg's advice. If you only play in casinos (as I do now) you generally won't have to worry about these types of problems.
I am assuming that the cheat was culling from the muck while he was putting the deck together before shuffling and then stacking the deck by some technique. If he was milking the deck with an overhand shuffle then his shuffle may be against the club rules. No club should allow overhead shuffling because of how easy it is to stack a deck with that shuffle.
Before reporting a potential cheat to the house, it is a good thing if you can spot some particular aspect of his method which you can point out to the floor person. Even if you cannot spot something specific with his shuffle, there are other places to watch. For example, he still needs to get past the cut and that is another place where he is vulnerable to discovery.
Most cheats work with a partner who is not stacking the deck and who appears to be perfectly innocent. A cheat who only deals winning hands to himself is taking a special risk because of how easily he can draw attention to himself by winning mostly when he deals. Therefore, the person cutting the cards may be his partner and be doing a false cut or crimping the deck so the cards can easily be put back together with the stack on top, after being picked up.
If the cutting player is not his partner then he may be putting the cards back together just the way they came apart. Another technique is to maintain a break in the deck where the cards were cut with your little finger and performing a slip cut once the cards are back in your hands. If you can spot any of these specific moves then you have something to go to a floor person with that will make their job much easier.
If you are in a room where there is a competent floor person, get up and discreetly alert him to the problem. Ask him if you can change tables and tell him which player, you suspect of cheating. Also, tell him how you think the player is cheating and tell him what to look for if you have identified any specific moves. If there is no other table to play then you might still want to go back to the game. If you do go back, then I would avoid bumping heads with the cheat until the floor person has time to watch him and hopefully throw him out of the club. If you do this carefully then the cheat will not even know you talked to the floor person.
When I was young and immortal, I used the sit-out method of making a cheat leave the table, but now that I am mortal, I just get up and leave the game. Remember, this is something which I no longer recommend, but I mention it just in case you are still young enough to be immortal, as I once was.
If you are playing hold'em and you are in a position from which you can sit-out each time he is dealing, then do so. If you are not in such a position then try to move to a spot from which you can conveniently sit-out. If you are in a game such as 7CS then sitting out each time he has the cards should be no problem.
Sooner of later he will get the message and leave before the rucus starts, or someone at the table will ask why you are sitting out so often. Once you are asked about sitting out, it is time to sincerely compliment Mr. X on how very lucky he has been tonight. Tell him how you admire how lucky his touch is when he is handling the cards. Explain that you do not want to play against someone who has such a lucky touch because you know you have no hope of ever being more lucky than him. Try to sound as sincere as possible when telling everyone about why you are sitting out. If you do your job well then, from that point forward, all eyes will now be on Mr. X. each time he has the cards. In most cases, he will not be able to continue with his little game and will play another round or two and then leave.
Nowadays, I leave the game and inform the floor person of the problem. Sometimes I just go home, sometimes I go to another table and soemetimes I wait until the house removes the problem player or he goes away of his own accord. However, I recommend leaving the game even if it is the only game available.
Good Luck, William
This seems like excellent advice. How many times in your career have you detected such cheating?
I have seen cheating going on a few times Dave. I find it interesting that even very low limit home games seem to invite cheaters.
Years ago, when I was playing on the road full time I joined the Moose, the Elks, the Eagles and any other animal you can think of in order to play poker no matter where I went. Many of the lodges had what I would call stag night in which the local farmers would get together to play poker, shoot pool and drink. I have seen a few cheats in these games but it was minor stuff and they usually were not very good. Maybe once a year I would spot someone who was good and I suspect that some were good enough that I did not detect them at all. In all fairness, I was playing full time and I put in many hours each year.
I personally believe that casinos and card rooms are the safer places to play compared to private games.
William
Thanks for the reply. I need to be more perceptive. The only time I know I encountered a cheat was years ago in a nickel-dime-quarter game. This drunken idiot took off his shirt in the middle of a game (it was 95 degrees and muggy) and he had a king stuck to his sweaty chest. Apparantly he'd forgotten it. He still lost that night!
This hand was played by a friend of mine and later related to me. We had quite a debate over the proper play. The game was $40-80 Stud with a structure of a $5 ante and $10 bring-in. I will leave out a lot of minor details.
Deuce brings it in, a couple of folds, my friend raises with split Kings. He is called by a player with a 6h showing whom he does not know (but whom he previously observed taking tremendous heat with a split pair of fours and following the hand to the river). One other player calls. By 5th Street my friend has caught running Queens for a board of K Q Q and the player with the 6h now shows 6h 8h 3c. The open Queens bet, the 6h 8h 3c calls and the third player folds.
On 6th Street the opponent pairs his doorcard making open Sixes and my friend catches nothing special. My friend with open Queens bets and is raised and calls. On the 7th Street my friend checks and folds.
MULTIPLE CHOICE: Of the following ways to play this hand from Sixth Street on, please rank them in order of preference and give a brief explanation of your choices:
On 6th Street:
A) Bet 6th Street and Call if Raised
B) Check and Call on 6th Street
On 7th Street, if on 6th Street you bet and are raised by the open Sixes:
C) Check and Call
D) Check and Fold
Of course further discussion is welcomed, but my friend and I have a dinner bet riding on a certain aspect of the multiple choice and I laid 2-1 on this bet (dinner at a pretty nice restaurant vs. dinner at the local pancake house). LOL. So that is in part the reason for the multiple choice. It also may help in the process of breaking the hand down a bit. Of course there are other options, but these would probably cover the primary options against an unknown player. My friend has been playing Stud for many years and is a respectable player.
Bet and call the raise on 6th. It is very likely he is on a draw and you cant give a free card. Check and fold the river if you don't improve.
^
are you nuts???
you have kings up and don't call on 7th street with $720 in the pot, approx: 8:1 odds. you gotta pay this guy off. esp. if you say that this guy is loose.
am i missing something???
tootight
check and call, on 6th and 7th. Based on his previous play, this guy could easily have 2 pair also, and was trying to win with a scare raise, which he did.
Betting into your board is scary, but it's too late in the hand to fold. Just my opinion.
taxidriver
...above post "hand For Discussion, Multiple Choice" if you can get to it in time before it gets too many responses on this wrong forum. I just reposted it on the Other Poker Games forum. Sorry for the error and inconvenience. Thanks, Mark
B. The pot is too big to fold, and this play minimizes losses. Also, if you bet into him, you won't know what a raise means unless you know the player. Also, if I were the 66, I would raise pretty much no matter what, and then decide what to do on 7th street based upon your response. Most people will just call on 6th unless they can beat trip 6s, and then I need to decide if they're going to call me down (in which case I bet trips and check 2-pair) or fold to a bet (bet no matter what I have).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You suggest by your comment about the split 4's that the other player is loose, and possibly, erractic. I would call the raise and check call the river. Saying that, almost the exact same thing happened to me recently, and the other player, who was also drunk, showed me quads. You never know, but I would still show my hand down. Were your friend's cards live?
Yes, the K's and Q's were live.
Well, you never know, and hindsight is 20/10.
In "The Theory of Poker" it says says that a powerfull weapon against a semi-bluff is to semi-bluff-raise somone you think is semi-bluffing. I wonder if this is still true in pot or no limit poker.
In limit, a semi-bluff re-raise is only going to cost you a couple of bets if your opponant has a real hand. In pot(or no) limit, you are risking your stack... ( of course, you are always risking yor stack in big bet poker).
I supose that it strongly depends on the stacks after the re-raise.
any comments ?
The difference between semibluffing limit and bigbet games is that semibluffing in a limit game only has to pick up the pot a small percentage of the time to be worth it because the size of the pot is large compared to the bet. The "semi-" part comes into play when the bluff itself isn't getting a good price, but the extra outs push you over the edge to profitability on the play. Now if you change the numbers such that the bet is much larger proportionately compared to the size of the pot (as in pot and no limit), you see that the opponent must fold quite a bit for it to be worth it. If he is not folding that often, then the extra outs that garner the "semi-" tag probably are not going to make the difference between losing and making money on the play. If your read on the opponnet is accurate, he will probably fold most of the time unless he has a monster draw out, but in that case, I wouldn't have classified his bet as a semibluff.
If you can make a very good read on your opponent the counterraise is a good strategy. But at the same time, if he can read you, two things can go wrong. He can actually have what he is representing and call you down, in which case you just spewed a lot of money on your read. Or if he and you have more money, he can raise back enough that makes it difficult for you to call. So it is partially a function of the stack sizes, but the opponent reading is the big factor there.
Anyway, semibluffing isn't that good a weapon in big-bet poker compared to limit because the relative investment in big-bet poker is so much greater that if you frequently make these plays you will get caught often enough that it costs you a lot of money. But in limit it only costs you one or two bets. My two cents.
JG
sure right about comparative cost and risk between lmt and P/P. BUT those elements make the re-raise a stronger weapon in P/L. good luck, Jim
Is it all that bad a play? I think if you are deep off the table as well the semi-bluff is a great play.
Say you put your opponant on pp9-J and you have AQs flop comes 3 rags 2 of your suit, right now you are behind yet have 15 ways to win the hand with 2 cards coming, your opponent is good enough that he will lay down his hand if beaten on the turn, in these spots i like gambling and gettin money into the middle against these opponents. I think the odds of completing your hand, along with the possibility the opponent will fold make it a worthwhile play...
Others opinions?
Right. But when I think of the term "semibluff," I think of raising with a gutshot or something. Most of the equity is picking up the pot right there, but some is hitting you slim draw. In the example you give, there are a lot more outs -- as there needs to be given the extra price you may be forced to pay in big bet poker -- so I wouldn't think of that as a "classical semibluff" as described in WP. We may just be at a semantic difference. But when you have lots of outs, yeah, it's cool to raise a large amount.
JG
n/t
Would like some help with a PL Holdem hand I played this weekend. I'm a solid limit player at 20-40, 40-80 levels, but have only played PL/NL a couple of times. I think I played ok. Any advice?
Game is a PL Holdem with 5-5 blinds. I'm on the button holding KsJs. Game has been pretty loose before the flop and tight thereafter. Three players limp in for five, before loose aggressive player raises to 30. This player has been raising with as little as 9-10o, trying to intimidate the table with a stack of $8K. This is much bigger my $1K, but I figure I'll see the flop because no one else will raise. Five total call. Pot is $180.
Flop comes 7d, 4s, 2s.
All check to maniac who raises $100, solid player calls, I call. I figured this was a pretty weak call, because I'm drawing to the second best hand, but this guy was playing pretty poorly.
Turn is Qs. Second nuts.
All check to me. I'm not sure if I'm getting trapped here, but I figure I can let anyone with the Ace have another card. I bet the pot at $480. Good bet?
Maniac takes 5-6 minutes to think about the call. Finally calls. Solid player folds.
River comes 9d. He checks. I go all in for $300. He calls.
I turn over my flush and he turns over As 4c. Showing a pair of 4's.
Was this guy as crazy as I think or am I missing something? The call on the turn seems weak, but the call on the turn seems to make no sense.
I'm on the button holding KsJs.
What is your dream flop with this hand?
All check to maniac who raises $100, solid player calls, I call. I figured this was a pretty weak call, because I'm drawing to the second best hand, but this guy was playing pretty poorly.
OK, this guy is playing pretty poorly, but there is another guy in the hand. Here you have to be wondering what they both could have. Could either one of them have AsXs? You have two over cards and a flush draw, not a bad hand heads up, but would the solid player be just calling with a big pair (or more) and two spades on the board?
All check to me. I'm not sure if I'm getting trapped here, but I figure I can let anyone with the Ace have another card. I bet the pot at $480. Good bet?
I like it, but I wasn't there. My guess is that if you were trapped, it was by the solid player. If there is a set or a dry As out there (I doubt the set), you have to make them pay to draw.
Solid player folds.
Good news. What would you have done if he had come over the top? A solid PL player acts differently than a solid limit player. Your pot-size bet made it difficult for him to make this play.
Was this guy as crazy ...
I would have to guess yes, but I wasn't there. He must have had you playing position on him w/ an Ace.
I like the way you played this hand.
Drawing to the second nuts against a maniac is fine. Doing so with a "solid player" is VERY dangerous. I would have expected SP to be very likely to have the nuts here. Obviously he didn't, but be very careful of this next time.
Also, I don't like your pot-sized bet on the turn. If someone is trapping you, they aren't going away. If someone has 2-pair or a lesser flush, you want them to be committed, and your full-pot bet is giving them a good chance to get away from their hand. Also, you've invested $130 so far, and should have about $870 in your stack. By betting $480 now, you're committing yourself to the pot, and can't get away if one of these guys check-raises you all-in. However, it appears you played it well, since the maniac is unable to fold for even $300 on the river with his pair of 4s (obviously he's hoping you're bluffing with the Ks and no pair). If you had bet less on the turn, he'd have called, but then probably could've folded the river when you bet $500 or the like into a smaller pot.
In general, I like to give myself some room both ways, and betting $300 on the turn should do that.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
either one of the other posts seem goodplay it might even be OK to just bet $100 to try to keep good player in --- but I want to compliment you on your game selection---very important! Jim
Thanks for everyone replying. I have a few more questions that maybe someone can help me with.
Are there any clubs that allow a player to use the overhand shuffle? Are there any clubs that don't require a cut to be made by another player before the cards are dealt?
Are there any advanced videos that teach effective teaching methods such as stacking and culling using the riffle, overhand and undercut? I'm just curious. Thanks again.
If you want to see just how vulnerable you can be and why you should probably play only in casinos, get Steve Forte's videos (available from 2+2/Conjelco I believe), though I doubt you could really learn to execute such moves by simply watching.
Are there many card mechanics dealing poker in U.S. casinos?
Do the big money tournaments take special precautions to protect against a corrupt dealer dealing winners to a playing co-conspirator?
Have there been any scandals detected or highly suspected at any big-money events?
I understand that opinions may vary highly, but I'd certainly be interested in a variety of viewpoints. Thanks in advance to anyone who cares to share thoughts on this (important?) topic.
These are just my opinions:
1) Highly doubtful
2) When I watched the final table from the bleachers of the WSOP Championship event the last time Stuey Ungar won it, the dealer scrambled the deck before each shuffle and slowly dealt the cards from a slightly fanned spread deck laid flat on the table. Hard for anything to be going on there. In general, too, there is video coverage of really big tournament final tables. The procedures dealers are supposed to follow actually do, if followed, provide a high degree of built-in protection against chicanery, and with so many people watching during a tournament and with video coverage it is hard to imagine anything taking place
3) I haven't heard of any but I don't follow tournaments that much
I used to believe the casino games were completely on the level but I've heard so much lately about cheating that I'm not sure. One thing is for certain, there are many ways to cheat in which you wouldn't even know you were being cheated. Such as dealers dealing seconds or thirds, daubing (?) of decks etc. If you've ever seen the video, "Beat the Cheat" you'd realize how sharp some of the cheaters really are. In some places, the same cards are used for a very long time, so daubing techniques would be very successful. Look for Mike Caro's upcoming (early June) discussion about cheating.
DL Asked:
"Are there many card mechanics dealing poker in U.S. casinos?"
I believe there are a few active mechanics, but not many. One very important thing the eye in the sky does is watch the employees. The main risk to the players in a casino is collusion between a player and a dealer.
A cheating dealer does not have to stack the deck in order to cheat; he need only flash cards to the guy in seat two or three as they are dealt from the deck. It is a very risky business to cheat if you are a casino dealer because of the possibility of losing your ability to earn a wage doing the thing which you have spent some amount of time learning. I do not believe it happens very often, but I am still watchful.
Also, I have seen a move or two at the blackjack tables, but that was years ago and another story.
As for the rest of your questions, I have no direct knowledge.
William
My home game recently began playing pot limit Omaha. Most of the players are decent, but none have any pot limit experience. I have 2 questions, and any advice would be appreciated.
1. What different starting hands should I look for/consider playing as opposed to limit Omaha?
2. What is the best book on pl/nl Omaha?
thanks for any help you guys can offer.
Read the Ciaffone book available at Conjelco.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In addition to the Ciaffone book, I also like "Championship Omaha" by Cloutier and McEvoy. A good read as well as informative and useful.
Regards,
Richard
Ciaffone's Basic Omaha book has a section on Omaha. I would read that before his Pot Limit book. Otherwise the advanced book is heavy going. Also, I would by some software and practice. PLO is quite a game. I recently sat in a game with five players and one five dollar blind. One of the pots went over 3K. You would not think that the loser would employ a check and call strategy at the river, but despite his demeanor of experience and skill, he did exactly that. When shown the nut, he bolted from the cardroom like his hair was on fire. I held my own, despite some seriously poor play. Gotta love it.
that's exactly the game i'm in. 5-6 players, one $5 blind. i mucked x-10-J-Q of hearts and sure enough the board ended with the 7-8-9 of hearts in it. no pair showing, and someone held the A-high flush. i probably could've made some good money with that one. that's what prompted my original question. i don't really consider that a good hand, but maybe worth it in plo?? probably remembering your folded hands can be the death of you in this game.
I'm on my second read-through on the Ciaffone book and am just starting to see the light. Some rough going, though. A dramatic shift of mind-set.
Jon I.
The basic Ciaffone book emphasizes the likelihood of the nut showing up at limit high Omaha. Checking and calling may be permissiable there, though definitely weak. At pot limit, if you can't bet, you probably cannot call, unless you have an excellent read. I doubt you will see tells, but at these stakes, you can see fear.
As far as folding a non nut straight flush draw, with ten jack, I would call. The pot odds are not good, but the implied odds are huge, especially if the money is deep. Mistakes are costly but still...
I don't think there is anything wrong with reprising your memorable hands provided you can learn from them. I keep a journal of each session, with the type of player or game and the significant hands. Most people don't know, but Socrates had an assitant, Pokrates, who said, The unexamined hand is not worth posting. He avoided having to drink the hemlock by sucking out. That will be me.
My hand is Ac2dKdKh I make it $50 to go before the flop There are three blinds 5 5 and 10 I get one two callers flop comes down Qs8c5c everyone checks to me and i bet $120 one caller turn is the Jc my opponent bets $200 I call and raise the pot $790 more.He calls and the river brings a 2h(no low for me)He rolls over his hand for a 6c2c for a six high club flush takes the pot how many mistakes did i make in this pot or how many did my opponent make.One note i had shown the nuts all night when i made a big bet.i just figured the guy liked me and wanted to pay me off.comments needed.
Your hand certainly warrants the pot-size preflop raise, though from early position I probably just call. I think a check on the flop is a better play. You really don't have anything but a low draw, and it's likely that one of the other players has A-2 also. When the Jc came on the turn, I really don't understand why you raised, it's a clear fold here. All you have is a counterfeitable draw at 1/2, or more likely 1/4 of the pot. Don't fall in love with Omaha hands- everything changes with each new card. Besides, A2KK with an unsuited Ace isn't that great to begin with. It's very hard to flop the nuts with that hand and you could easily get stuck drawing for second best and/or getting your low counterfeited.
CH
Craig H,
I don't think you understand the play. He has the cock-block on the nut flush and he figured that since he had been showing the nuts all night, someone with a brain would lay down a six high flush. He also has any low card to chop. I think the play is great, but obviously not against this idiot. Your only fault here was not understanding how you opponent would react.
I understand the play. My point was that playing the lone Ace in a hi/lo split game is a losing proposition. Even if the smaller flush believes you, he still might be on a low draw as well (like I bet this guy was, we don't know his other two cards)
I cannot but help that craig h didn't understand what went on at all at this hand.
a few points:
a) the raiser had been showing down the nuts and isn't going to raise on the turn w/o it.
b) is the raiser really going to risk a reraise if he doesn't ahve the nuts. Ususally the answer is no, and the thinking player will have to assume the preflop raiser has the nuts. (Observe since he has Ac there is no way the caller can have the nuts and pbly shoudl fold (pbly even if he has A2 as he is only getting 2-1 on his call and if a low comes he is likely to be quartered).
So the reason he played his hand this was is not because he was in love w/his hand which happened to get worse on the flop...
What were his other two cards?
One Cardinal Rule i try to keep in mind during many semi-loose or loose pot-limit games is...Never try to put a move on a person incapable of rationalizing through what is going on...be that as it may i might hae just called the turn and folded the river...
Were either of you all-in on the river? The river might have been the time for the huge bet, but when the possible low comes on the river, that makes a big river bluff less successful. (and really increases your exposure). In retrospect, if you could've seen thru the cards, a big bet on the end should've taken the pot. Nonetheless,the guy should have mucked the turn. Hopefully, you will have other opportunities for him to pay you off with horrible calls, as he could've easily been drawing dead in both directions when he called the turn.
its too hard to run someone off these type of hands as they figure if you have them for high they may win low or visa versa. ive found that when someone catches a good card and then bets alot they mostly have it as they would be afraid of you here. its just that its hard to tell what having it means to different people.
I'm new to Pl and Omaha and am trying to improve my game. The club I play in recently began spreading PL Omaha/Omaha 8 or better (dealers choice). $2 antes, $5 on the button. Max. raise $50 anytime before the flop. The game tends to be very loose and passive.
In this hand I hold 2-3-4-5 (no suits) in Hi/Lo on the button. I have $1200 and have everyone covered. 4 call the $5 and I raise $20. All call. Flop is 3-6-10 with 2 clubs.
A decent player bets $100 into the field and all fold to me. He likes to bet his draws aggressively but usually not this big. He has about $450 in front of him. It's either a huge draw or a set of 10's. What's the best play here?
I call. Turn is the 7s. He bets $300 into me again. I'm pretty sure the 7 didn't help his high. I think it's either a set or (more likely now) A-2 with clubs. Do you call?
I call. River is the the Jc. He bets his last $60. I think I'm forced to call here.
Thanks for any responses,
TJ
I may well be beat, but the pot is too big for me lay down the hand...call. Jim
In this hand I hold 2-3-4-5 (no suits) in Hi/Lo on the button. I have $1200 and have everyone covered. 4 call the $5 and I raise $20.
Not a bad hand for pot limit, but I'd want to see the flop cheaply. I wouldn't raise here.
All call. Flop is 3-6-10 with 2 clubs.
I want to see an ace on the flop. A, 5, 6 would be nice because I can catch a card in the wheel house, counterfeit a low, and scoop both ways. No ace so I'm out of there.
A decent player bets $100 into the field and all fold to me. He likes to bet his draws aggressively but usually not this big. He has about $450 in front of him. It's either a huge draw or a set of 10's. What's the best play here?
Fold. Your only draw for the nut straigt is a 2. An ace gives you a low, but you're drawing to half the pot if a club comes. Not worth it.
I call. Turn is the 7s. He bets $300 into me again. I'm pretty sure the 7 didn't help his high. I think it's either a set or (more likely now) A-2 with clubs. Do you call?
I call. River is the the Jc. He bets his last $60. I think I'm forced to call here.
Might as well, it's only 60. Did you scoop?
he scoops with the Ac-2c. I think that I should have laid this down on the flop given the flush draw and no ace.
obviously you have to call the turn right, with your second nut straight and second nut low?
but yeah folding the flop seems correct
The first raise is interesting, and good given that everyone calls, but I would fold to almost any bet if the ace doesn't hit. I would compare it to a raise with a three flush in 7-card stud. If you have a lot of people in the hand you are getting decent odds, and you can confuse people which will dramatically increase your win if you get your cards. But if you don't hit the ace, you are very likely drawing dead low, and with a possible flush draw you are drawing to at best the second best high.
Here's another hand. I have about $800 at this point which is an above average stack. Hi/Lo game.
I have K-K-5-3 double suited on the button and call a $10 raise with 8 players in. I'm not in love with this hand but for an extra $10 and a pot of $140 I think I should see the flop. Right or wrong?
Flop is Ah-Qs-7h giving me the nut flush draw. First player in (an experienced PL Omaha player) bets $100 and 5 call to me. The pot is huge and only getting bigger. Although I have the nut draw, with 5 players calling many of the hearts are probably busy and I'm surely up against a set here. In this game many of the players chase any flush draw. I call.
Turn is the 6s bringing the low. It also gives me the 2nd nut flush draw in spades and a gut shot for a straight which could be good. Same player goes all-in for $150, next player raises $50 all-in and 2 call. I call.
River is the Qh and I fold to an all-in $200 bet. Should I have gotten away from this hand earlier?
Thanks, TJ
no. if board doesn't pair you have half pot locked & poor chance to win low...who knows, could even scoop the pot one way or the other. Jim
I agree you must call for $10 preflop.
Seems tough to give up on the nut flush draw with approximately 7-1 odds on the flop. Even though you will often split the pot, and occasionally make the flush on the turn and then lose to a board pair on the river, you have pretty good odds, especially considering implied odds.
On the turn your odds are too good, especially with the extra non-nut outs. You have to think the gutshot could be good, as even in loose games you don't see too many people with a 5-8 in their hands.
In short, I think you had to call the whole way.
the strange thing in this hand was that I had more outs than I thought. Only one player had the low and it was unprotected so any 2 gave me low. 2s or 2h gave me the scoop. Also any K was good for high.
On the turn I thought that there was a goo chance that there was more than one set present making the full house draws weaker. Is this a valid consideration?
Pocket Q's and 2-3 split the pot. I think one of my problems in this game is that I over value the flush draw. How good is a flush draw with nothing else to fall back on?
we have all felt the sting of having our nut flush beaten, but truth is more pots are one by straights and flushes than by full house...thus if your draw is to the nut flush...draw. also note that (as in this hand) ANY low draw has some value, even if small. Jim
I joined a WSOP pool, whoever has the last man standing wins.
Person A: Cloutier, S.Nguyen, Ferguson, Seed
Person B: Hellmuth, Negreanu, Ulliott, Sexton
Person C: Seidel, Chan, Bonetti, Ma
Who do you think has the best chance of winning (and the least?)
wow-what a choice...in this order, A
I like whom A got in rounds 2, 3 & 4.
JG
I have a bet with a friend for a paid entry into an Orleans Open event. We alternated "drafting" 10 players each. All of your players are on our list except Negreanu. I don't think Negreanu is quite ready to win a 5-day event with such talented opponents, so I think B is the dog. I would take person A's picks, but if you ask me tomorrow, I might say C. If Bonetti wasn't such an enormous A-hole, it would be easier for me to like C's picks.
CH
I am player B, and I won since I am the only one with players left (and I have 3!)
makes it interesting...cloutier and ulliot are already eliminated!
Posted by: Jim Geary (jaygee@netaxs.com)
Posted on: Monday, 14 May 2001, at 6:57 p.m.
Posted by: Craig H
Posted on: Monday, 14 May 2001, at 7:12 p.m.
Posted by: David Ottosen (dottosen@powersurfr.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 16 May 2001, at 1:35 p.m.
Posted by: broomcorn
Posted on: Tuesday, 15 May 2001, at 11:09 a.m.
the situation : 7 handed 80/160 hold'em - I am two after the big blind. I have AdKd - pretty tight crowd.
preflop action : I am first in and I raise. Everyone folds, except the big blind who calls.
the flop : KsJs8c
flop action : big blind checks to me, and I make a wager. the big blind then raises. I just call, planning to raise on fourth if no spade hits.
the turn : 4s
turn action : big blind bets out...now I just call...I'm a little scared of a spade, and I don't want to get bluffed out with a three bet with a hand like AsJd...or even AsKc.
the river : 4d
river action : big blind bets, now I raise...big blind calls...I lose the pot to KJ (he flopped two pair). I figured the river raise was safe because if I got reraised, there would have been no way that my hand was good (flush possible. full house possible), and I could, with good conscience, fold if I got repopped.
did I go wrong anywhere here?
Your river play makes no sense. You slow played your hand on the flop planning to pull the trigger on the turn if no spade hits. The turn brings a spade so you just call rather than raise. Frankly, in a heads-up situation I think it is highly unlikely that your lone opponent has precisely two spades in his hand. I would have raised and charged him to catch a fourth spade at the river if he had a singleton spade. But nevertheless you just call which is consistent with your strategy so far. But now the river brings a blank (creates a running pair of fours but so what?) and you now raise his river bet. Why? If you weren't willing to raise on the turn why are you raising now?
I would have popped him on the turn and just called him at the river or bet the river if he checked. Regardless, you are earmarked to lose money on this hand. Don't try to make informational raises at the river so you can make a fold if reraised. At that point it is not worth money. Simply call if he bets or check-raises you and see what he has.
my thinking is as follows - if he has two pair, he'll be afraid of AA (with the running pair counterfeiting his two pair against aces)....the only hands he won't be afraid of are flush and full house. I thought i was highly likely to have him beat, that he ony had a K with a weaker kicker...given that, I thought my risk was only one bet, as he'd only rerasie on the river with a better hand about 99% of the time (maybe 1% is tiltness making him go nuts). thus, i am risking one big bet to make one big bet, and in this situation, I thought I was a favorite to win the hand.
Your logic for raising is fine, IF you are a favorite to win the hand. That is, the concept of risking 1 bet to win 1 bet, and doing so when you're going to succeed more than half the time, is correct.
However, why did you think you were the favorite? It would have to be based upon specifics of this player, since the action you described would normally indicate that your AK is not the best hand at the river.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
here's why i thought i was a favorite at the river : he checkraised the flop - typically people don't checkraise the flop wit ha flush draw...some will, but i think it is a bit unlikely...more than likely, i thought he had a K with a weaker kicker....thus my ace kicker, or so i thought, would be good. of course, i didn't think my edge was big...but i thought it was roughly 60/40 - in that area.
If you didn't think he'd check-raise with a flush draw, then why did you back off when the flush card hit?
I don't play big limits; so, maybe I'm missing something which only happens with the big dogs. Here's the flop action you described:
flop action : big blind checks to me, and I make a wager. the big blind then raises. I just call, planning to raise on fourth if no spade hits.
Why were you planning all this aggression on the turn? When I get check raised on the flop, top pair isn't in the lead. Ok, you don't dump it because some opponents are tricky, but aren't you worried you're giving action instead of getting action?
Fat Charlie
possible hands he'd checkraise with are : AK, KQ, KJ, KT, K9, K8, J8, AJ, QJ, Asxs. I can beat a good number of these hands.
After the flop check - raise, and the turn spade, you have a pay-off hand at best. There's only KQ and KTs that you can beat, and does he bet these on the river?
If he was trying to knock you out with a semi-bluff, he would do it on the turn, as this board almost certaly gave you something. The board also suggests that the turn semibluff is not all that likely to work.
He may also have a QTs, but it's probably suited, and you get nothing by raising the river. At this limit, th KQ or KTs might not pay off your river raise anyway.
Why you raise on the river I don't know. Raising the turn , then checking down the river is the better play, if you want to raise at all. But I think this play is very risky as well.
Mark this down - I agreed with Jim Brier.
Good luck.
Dan Z.
I feel like my disagreement with all the other posters (not a good sign for me if I am disagreeing with 4 guys!) is that I think there are many hands that fall into the category of his action : checkraise flop, bet turn, bet river. a lot of players i know would do just that with any of the following that i can beat : K2s, K3s, K4s, K5s, K6s, K7s, K8s, K9o/s, KTo/s, KQo/s. I agree I can discount just a pair of Jacks...but anyone with a King is probably going to bet turn and river as well. different opinions strongly encouraged to post and lambast me.
one other question i have, since i'm somewhat new here. it seems that this type of hand and post is more suited for medium stakes, even though it was a 75/150 game...there's really not much difference in this hand versus another 30/60 or 20/40 hand. should i be posting these type of hands in the medium stakes area?
It seems to me that you showed weakness by not re-raising his check raise on the flop thereby telling him that you only had one pair...most likely the K. If you wanted to represent a stronger hand a re-raise on the flop and turn would have been necessary to convince him to muck. It happens.
StrayDogg says " If you wanted to represent a stronger hand a re-raise on the flop and turn would have been necessary to convince him to muck. "
with a worse hand than mine, I don't want him to muck...with a better hand than mine, he's not going to muck no matter what i do.
It is rare indeed when I don't want my opponent to muck - espically if I don't hold one of the top 5 nut hands.
Hmm this is an interesting hand, its one of those marginal situations where I think you have to think about whether or not your opponent is capable of putting in a threebet bluff on the turn with a hand like AsJd. It seems rather unlikely that he would make this play, because you don't think he would even checkraise the flop with a flush draw. If this is the case I think a raise on the turn is ok, even so it is somewhat dangerous, because if he calls and the river brings a spade, and he bets you lose another bet.
I think you also have to really consider if he is going to pay you off with a lot of these worse hands if you raise him on the turn he might toss Kx, if this is true its probably better not to raise.
Also if you don't raise the turn, I think you should just call the river, many players there would check a king if their kicker didn't play.
Oh and it think for 80-160 its probably better to just post it here, since the game does tend to play rather differently than a 20-40, 30-60 game.
skeller
When I am in the blind vs a preflop raiser I almost always wait to checkraise the flop because the preflop raiser should bet when checked to. Therefore (at least from your description of the player) he could indeed have a wide variety of hands. I think a turn raise is a mistake because he may fold a hand that would have paid you on the river- say he has Kx, he has a 3/44 chance to beat you on the river making you lose the pot- 8 big bets plus a possible river raise and small blind- the other 41/44 times you get an extra big bet from him, so you obviously want him around if he will put in the last bet on the river even if he does not improve. On the other hand you may be 3 bet by a draw and fold the best hand or pay off a monster if you are so inclined. Only if you have a good handle on him would a turn raise be profitable in my opinion. On the river I wouldn't raise because without a hand that beats you he probably would not bet, but if you are dealing with an overly aggressive player or you have been caught calling down something like JJ in a similar situation I might raise (on Paradise Poker I would definitely raise). I think your play was alright if you considered the above factors. Skeller: what's goin on these days my man? -Ben
Not too much Ben, just trying to pass all my classes so I graduate :D
My prefered game is hold'em, but play a bit Omaha hi/lo. I've read Lee Jones : Winning low limit, Lou Krieger Hold'em Exelence, Sklansky and Malmuth, Hold'em Poker and The theory of Poker.
I would like to read quality bookss about Omaha hi/lo and Hold'em tourny theory.
Which books do you recommend. It seems pretty hard to find tourny books worth reading.
Furthermore i would like to read Brunsons SuperSystem, but have given up finding it. Does anybody know where its possibly to buy it?
thx in advance.
You can get Super System from Conjelco.com or gamblersbooks.com. I think that Conjelco offers a $5 internet discount so it's $45 +s/h. That's where I bought mine and I'm very pleased with it. A must for any poker player.
As for books on tourney play - one thing is for sure, do NOT get the S. Suzuki book published by 2+2. It is just horrible. I would suggest the Tom McEvoy book (the newer one). This is also availible at the two sites I listed above.
I can't say too much about Omaha books since I'm very new to that game myself. Super Systems has a section on it. I also have Ray Zee's book. The Ray Zee book is good but I have heard from many sources that the 7-stud hi/low section in that book is better then the Omaha and that there are better Omaha books out there. I don't know which ones are considered the better ones since I have yet to read them myself. If anyone can enlighten us please advise. Thanks!
"Zen and the Art of Poker" by Larry Phillips.
"Inside the Poker Mind" by John Feeney is excellent. The essay compendiums by S & M are also worthwhile. For big-bet poker and tournaments the best book is Ciaffone and Reuben's No-limit and Pot-limit Poker. Cloutier and McEvoy's book on No-limit hold 'em is also worth reading.
But the Phillips book recommended by Tommy Angelo is a real sleeper in poker literature. It's one of the few books that helps build a bridge between knowledge and execution by concentrating on attitude, the place where otherwise non-fishy players go wrong.
Andy Glazer has a great article on poker books on www.poker.casino.com as for the omaha8 books, Ray Zee does a great job in his book, but the 7 card stud 8 section is much better. Probably something to do with the much more complex play.
I think that the Ciaffone/Reuben book is the best on big-bet poker, the Cloutier/McEvoy books on Hold 'em and Omaha are essential reading for tournaments. Try Bob Ciaffone's Omaha book -- it mostly covers Omaha high, but there is a good deal of useful information there. Avoid the Andy Nelson books on Omaha/Omaha Hi Lo Split.
I concur with the others about the Ray Zee book; the section on High Low 7 card stud is indispensable, but the Omaha section is not my favorite. Super/System also has an excellent section on playing Stud Hi/Lo.
nt
I've been forced to attend a bachelor party in Las Vegas next weekend. I expect it might be a lean week for poker this soon after WSOP. Does any casino consistently have a Pot-Limit Omaha hi game going? If so, info on blinds appreciated. Thanks
what are the different situations ie pot size,ev,outs that warrent a bet or call by either player. if this was live where either of the calls or bets out of line. given they both saw the flop cheaply what would be the best stratigy for each.
Here is a hand I played at the WSOP that I would welcome your comments on:
Game is PLH, 5-5 blinds. At the beginning of the hand I have approx. $1,000.
I straddled the pot for $10. Opponent limped, I raised it to $60 with KK. Limper re-raised the pot to $120. This player is an experienced pot limit player, known by other locals at the table. I immediately put him on a big hand given his limp/re-raise and put him on AA, QQ, the other two KK or maybe a bit suited Ace. I figured he wouldn't give me credit for a hand as big as KK so I just called. Flop is A J 4. I check, he goes all-in for $340. I go into a mini-huddle and finally fold.
My thoughts: Should I have re-re raised before the flop? The advantage there is I put another $340 in the pot and get to see all 5 cards without any more decisions to make. In the end I felt I was beat and threw it away. Given the play of the hand should I have called the last $340 hoping he had QQ?
Thanks!
pre-flop, there is only one hand that will beat you, and if he is type who would raise with ace & face, then you want to win right there rather than seeing an ace on the flop--bet him all in & let him decide! yes, at times I do slow play, but we all know better. Jim
My inclination is to reraise all-in. As you say, he doesn't necessarily give you credit for any type of hand here, since so many folks who like to straddle also like to raise their option as well.
Now, if he's seen you play a lot of straddles already, and you haven't been raising them very often, then it's a different story. However, as told here, I would reraise the pot and basically put him all-in.
If he had AK or the some other big A, then it looks as if you were going to take a bad beat. If he has AA, another crying shame. If he had JJ or 44 or otherwise would have sucked out on you, them's the breaks. My read here is he is unlikely to have AA, so get all the money in there.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Guys, Hold-em, UTG always leads the betting in this school.
Having probs with my end game at No-Limit, from a table of 8/9/10 can usually get to 4th with ease but then go one or two ways, too timid or too aggressive. Still winning about 1 in 5 games but I am sure I am the most knowledgable player in the school with regards pot odds etc. and feel I should be winning more regularly. Heres a beauty for you and i can see it was wrong but was it so bad?, 3 left, i have 430