Larry, the solutions you offer are politically active, probably effective, but confrontational. First we’re forced to confront the smokers with a petition; next we tilt against management. Personally, I am reluctant to confront anyone. If 60 to 75% of the patrons (probably more if you consider implied odds) of this establishment are non-smoking then the management should take the initiative to explore it.
With the confirmed health risks of second hand smoke made pretty clear by the steady beating tobacco is making in the courts, it is only a matter of time before the business will be required to manage by fire rather than by initiative.
It is not be beyond the scope of current ownership’s responsibility to incur the time and expense polling their customers. Many are regulars and probably not afraid to express their opinions. If as you suggest, many of the smokers would agree to no smoking at the tables, you’d get conservatively 80% or more agreement. I’m no rocket scientist, but odds appear good that a large majority would support better management of the air in the casino. There are solutions that don’t alienate smokers, which would embrace the majority and maybe re-invite estranged patrons for both the casino and the players.
Yeah, I could get on a box and stand outside the door and hawk signatures, but I have a life and a business to run too. I am a customer and I want to play poker, but then I want to live too. I don’t want to smell bad and I don’t want to feel sick after I visit. I hope the casino management will take the bull by the horns and be pro-active. With Spirit Mountain going non-smoking for whatever reason, there are soon to be alternatives to a smoking casino.
Take the poll and report the results. Let’s see where the chips fall.
Skip,
I echo your sentiments. Well written. Given the fact that Nevada has the largest concentration of smokers in the United States I doubt that any casino will brave the initiative and mandate non-smoking in any gaming room. I wish they would realize that it is only a matter of time before people start litigating them for allowing a known carcinogenic(sic?) to be spewed so freely into their non-smoking customers. Casinos have the obligation to afford us a clean air environment. The first time ANY casino has to dig in their pockets after losing a lawsuit change will come..and come swiftly. It is only a matter of time before smoking will be prohibited in all casinos but not because it is the right thing to do..because it will be the only viable alternative given the exposure to litigation that they are exposing themselves to with their passive "Smoking Allowed" policy.
I agree with you that smoking sucks in casinos, and I smoke. I live in So.Cal and it is nice to play cards in a clean environment. The problem with smoking in card rooms is that your clothes smell all smokey and it is too easy for me to light up and I end up smoking more when I am playing at Bellagio or Mirage. Too much smoking sucks but unfortunately I don't think Nevada will get to the point of having non-smoking casinos. I guess we all just have to grin and bear it.
I should think that workers in casinos may have the best chance of suing somehow to ensure that their workplace environment is not hazardous to their health. If this is indeed how OSHA succeeded in California, I would guess that this might have set a precedent of some kind that could be used by workers in seeking legal means to ensure that their workplace environment is not hazardous to their health. OSHA's efforts on a state-by-state basis have produced results (slowly) in certain states. Perhaps workers somehow could institute a suit for a safe workplace environment.
Yeah. While you're at it, why not add "people who wear fur" to your petition? Majority rules, right?
You may as well add on players who arrived drunk (they might have killed some on the way to the game), nonchristians (a danger to your moral system), nonwhites (they're all on welfare and are a danger to the country's economy), people with tatoos (they're all criminals) and people who think for themselves rather than swallowing whole any dogma that is currently being pushed by the mass media. Maybe the Information Age isn't ALL good :(
What a ridiculous argument. People that wear fur, while morally reprehensible to me, do not foul my lungs and make my own clothing stink and give me migraines that last well into the next day. Drunk players do not emit enough noxious fumes that can be detected in my own lungs by even the most archaic of medical testing machines as does cigarette and cigar smoke. And your inclusion of minorities and tattooed people does not even warrant a dignified response. Admit that you smokers are victims of tobacco companies and seek help in a withdrawal program. Seventy billion dollars a year is what smoking related illnesses cost the taxpayers. Smoking is not only a foul and costly addiction, it affects and infringes upon the rights of people that do not choose to smoke. I, for one, am infuriated by the people that sit at poker tables with their filthy ashtrays over-laden with charred butts and ashes and have no concern whatsoever for the abhorrent odors and noxious fumes that choke the other players lungs. It's only a matter of time before smoking is not tolerated. Companies will be brought to their knees by litigation and staggering judgments. Too bad we don't have a government that will stand up and do what's right...refuse to continue sanctioning this horrid addiction and also refuse to accept the wages it mandates on our health care system. Address your issue..the inability to quit and your insensitivity to the rights of non-smokers. I think smokers should come with giant baggies that they have to zip themselves into to smoke. This way they'll get the most bang for their buck..not nary a wisp of smoke will escape their little plastic baggie world. Now..about smoker breath...
Your post really opened my eyes. I'm right on the verge of changing my mind; maybe the government SHOULD tell everyone what they can and cannot do. Since you are so good at spouting dogma, what religion should everybody be?
Any religion that they wish provided that they do not harm others.
Holy shit! Why you layin such a guilt trip on all of us Desire? don't smoke? don't chase women? don't wear fur? Hmmmmmmmmmm....... the only thing left for me to do is go buy another high caliber hand gun.
Although I do not smoke and dont like it when others do at a table, if I am sitting at a table next to someone who obviously doesnt like it when someone smokes, I get a pack, dont inhale, and make sure I blow the smoke their way. This sends them on tilt. I only do this when I percieve the player to be a really good/strong player. They usually leave for another game and my wish is a fish moves in. If the person is live and they dont like smoking, I dont do it. Kind of a shi&&y thing to do, but hey, I'll take any edge I can get.
Well, Fred, you must be a pretty feeble player if you need to grope for every little imagined edge you can scrounge up, like blowing smoke in someone's face.
whatever...as I said, I will take any advantage I can. Doesnt have anything to do with being a feeble player. Dont know where you play-I play in Vegas and California. Would be more than happy to play you anytime. IMO, you are a moron.
I would put your cigarette out if you did that and ignored my polite requests. I have done this on occasion before and you would not be the exception.
what are you saying, that if someone next to you is smoking, you ask them to stop? I should have been a bit more clear-I dont deliberately blow it in their faces-just smoke it like any normal player at a table does when smoking. Are you saying if someone is smoking, you always ask them to put it out and if they dont, you do it for them? Seems you are risking getting a punch in the nose, assuming the person is smoking his/her cigarette in a normal fashion...
You said you deliberately blow it in their direction.
I have never gotten a punch for putting out an exceptionally rude smoker's cigarette and I have put their cigarettes out on several occasions. Besides I don't mind the risk because risk is part of gambling.
sorry, my mistake, I misspoke. I dont deliberately blow it in their faces, it may waft their way though. I admit, it is kind of a shi&&y thing to do, and I'll also admit I am your typical poker prick...
Why not just put poison in their drink and kill them....if you'll take ANY edge.
The young people that smoke should look at the older people that smoke. Do you want to end up caughing all the time, looking older than you are, crusty voice, oxigen machine, etc.
Smoking is one thing I'll never understand.
Fred,
You'll take any edge you can get? Why not hang around the navy pier after the ships leave port. All those twenty dollar hookers probably get pretty desperate when their business base dries up. I bet you could skank your way into a five dollar date. A good poker player has integrity and class. The thought that you would buy a pack of cigarettes, not inhale..and deliberately blow smoke in a superior player's face only underscores what a loser you must be at the table. A good player doesnt have to resort to such despicable behavior..and it will only paint a bulls-eye on your head. You may want to start developing good play instead of looking to "tilt" a more talented player than yourself.
I misspoke when I said I deliberatly blew it in their faces. As for the rest of what you said, its pretty stupid so I wont even respond. I can tell you I have been a pro for 12 years now-full time, do not work a "regular" job and havent for 12 years. When someone is on tilt and it is specifically directed at you, I have found they will tend to go after you when they shouldnt and thus you tend to make money off of them in the long run.
Fred, you wrote verbatim: "Although I do not smoke and dont like it when others do at a table, if I am sitting at a table next to someone who obviously doesnt like it when someone smokes, I get a pack, dont inhale, and make sure I blow the smoke their way."
These are your exact words, Fred. Not only do you NOT smoke, you stated that you would buy cigarettes, light them, not inhale and blow the smoke at the other players to put them on tilt. If someone could be tilted by such immature and mean-spirited bs as that, then they wouldn't be classified as a good player. So, again...develop some integrity...buy it, steal it, or try to grow some in those lil chia-pet pots that you see on people's kitchen window-shelves..but get some. Players with your way of thinking are why I remove my heels before going into my house..hate to drag any of that scum from the bottom of my soles into the parlor.
PV definately. when the band of cannibals is bearing down on us, GC would be trying to (illogically, most likely) explain why they shouldn't eat us. PV would be slapping them around.
Hey dimwit!!! Didn't the original poster say "desert island"? And does that not imply that there is no one there including cannibals? Dimwit!!!
didn't you ever see Gilligan's Island? Numbnuts!! If he can make up a scenario, I can make up details.
there could be some cannibal pirates. or, perhaps, the indigenous ape population could evolve into humans and then take up cannibalism. it's also possible that the contest organizers forgot to look in the cannibal's hideout cave.
scott
PV,
I'm not sure what a "desert island" might constitute, but it certainly does not say "deserted" island to me. Remember, read carefully. There may be a quiz.
John
ps. A healthy respense might be "Mea Culpa. Mea Maxima Culpa."
Cameron,
Bring on the hungry rats.
You deserve to be fed to the hungry sharks. You should be honored to be within my space you miserable vomitous mass of insanity!!!
PV,
If you were a woman I would reconsider.
OK Mason is right as usual regarding in Keeping Poker Honest column. I read about the Pegasus team on RGP and it stinks to high heaven IMO. Next we'll see players being recruited for various teams.
I know very little about the Pegasus Team. I do believe that it is good that it has come out in the open and I commend Linda Johnson for being open about her role. Here's part of the "Keeping Poker Honest" article that really applies here:
"Another point which should be especially important to tournament players, is the idea that as long as these practices are known to be widespread it is hard to imagine any legitimate national company coming in as a sponsor. The potential for scandal and perceived improprieties is just too great."
Yes what corporate sponsor would bother dealing with this kind of stuff.
Tom,
I agree. Why would any major corporation want to sponsor a poker tournament that could turn into a scandal? These guys that are participating in team play are making a big mistake. They don't realize that they are just hurting themselves. I think it's time that the operators of the tournaments establish rules to elimate team play.
It is unrealistic to expect poker tournaments to exist without some people, for a variety of reasons, having financial assistance. This has certainly affected the outcome of tournaments in the past and probably will in the future, and the same can be said for live games. A potential problem here is that a person who is sponsoring a major tournament and sponsoring players as well could have conflicting interests. I have no evidence that anything unethical has occurred, but the potential does exist.
Mike Souchak
From what I read on RGP Team Pegasus is simply a bunch of players who play independently but are backed by one person. The one person has an interest seeing multiple team members make money but each individual has no team agenda. Basically what I'm saying is that there is no reason for the individuals to collude or anything so they won't.
I think that there are more important issues that hinder poker's sponsorship. The biggest hinderance is that it's not very entertaining to watch, since you can't see what the heck is going unless all players show their cards at the end. I don't see why we should worry about fixing a problem that is really only a problem if we have sponsors if we won't have sponsors to begin with.
Robin there is a common interest, however, it is to keep the backer in business and I don't care what those folks say.
Mike,
You said,"I have no evidence that anything unethical has occurred, but the potential does exist."
That's the problem the potential exists. But, look at this scenario. Let's say two know members of the same team are at the same table and they make a play that looks like collusion to other players. People will talk about.
I see nothing wrong with sponsoring one player per event. But, the potential for wrong doing exist with a backer sponsoring multiple players per event.
What was said by Linda Johnson or anyone else that makes you think they "team play"?
This is a serious question, because Linda says they do not "team play". My understanding of Pegasus is no diferent than the following:
You go to Wells Fargo and borrow $1,000 to play in a tournament. Another player goes to Wells Fargo to borrow money to play in the same tournament. You both got your money from Wells Fargo.....is this cheating?
JohnnyD
Hey let's not fool our selves there are a lot of criminals playing poker. I know Sammy the Bull was a regular at Fort McDowell - I played with him. I have played with drug dealers and ex cons - dirt bags all.
What's a little collusion to these guys.
I get the idea a lot of you view poker as some sort of pure endeaver with the good defeating the evil.
Well you are mistaken there is money involved so there will be cheating - pure and simple.
It would be folly to think otherwise.
I by no means am accusing this " pegasus team" of cheating - but BE AWARE there are road gangs out there "playing together".
Actually I agree with your points. I'll wait to see what other comments come in before making more comments. Badger has accused me of making a sleazy post but I think what's more absurd than poker being pure is that a team of poker players is pure.
Why the team? The way Linda Johnson made it seem it is to protect the interests of other tournament players and protect the integrity of the tournament and poker. Ok sure I'm happy they formed this team so the integrity of poker would not be damaged. Give me a break.
Yep. Cheating, conscious or otherwise, is the wave of the future thanks to teams like Pegasus.
^
It is called "Team Pegasus" on RGP.
*
OK, I really don't believe in PBS, but there is a great, lesser-known performer that is going to be featured there this week on Austin City Limits.
Her name is Shelby Lynne, and her style fuses jazz-R&B-blues with country-folk-rock. Picture a Billie Holliday singing lead on a Steve Earle or Townes van Zant tune with Bonnie Raitt playing guitar and singing back-up vocals. Her latest album "I am Shelby Lynne" may be the best of 2000.
In New York, it will air at midnight on Nov.1, but may vary by market. Check it out and you won't regret it.
I also heard the new PJ Harvey album ("Stories from the City") to be released today is a contender. It features a duet with Thom Yorke of Radiohead.
Rock On.
More content, better music, better shows, and commercials that are barely noticeable instead of arrestingly obnoxious. I wish PBS type programming was the norm, and that the pulpy trash that fills our airwaves and TV's was the rarity instead.
This is really sad.
And you're losing what you never had. Your brain!!! Moron!!!
One question - are you going to be calling raises out of position with 74 offsuit?
LOL just kidding good luck.
-SmoothB-
but he will with Q4s :-)
It was Q4 offsuit! So there!
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
hey I was giving you credit for a "real hand" - good luck in the tournament wish I could be there.
Mike
I forgot the smiley face.
;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
:-)
Smiley faces? smiley face this. I thought I would beat old PV to the post. You two are making me vomit with your vernacular. I meant it as a joke! You make me puke. I thought you were THE Fossilman and ROUNDER not Wussyman and Flounder. Give me a break. Post the stuff and move on. This, "I din't mean it, really, I was only foolin around; don't be mad at me; can we still pway together . You twits. Now cut it out and go back to being rude and sarcastic like me and Poker Vetran. Be real assholes or don't bother hanging around here. Be like young scott and them other college boys. Be men! For cryin out loud. Of course if you are a woman be a woman too.
Vince :):):):) (yuk) :):) (how many of these things make it o.k.?)
Vince,
With my best AlexB impersonation:
Yo, sissy boys; you need to be getting your Ernest Borgine on, and your John Wayne on, and your Don Knotts on. Wait! Did I say "getting your Don Knotts" on? Make that "getting your Randolph Scott on."
she told russian mafia guy that she wanted to get her drink on. and i think that lap dance would be well worth the thousand dollars.
but no one gets their imitation on to the max because they all miss alex's wesley willis roots. when alex gets his drink on or his smoke on or finds some girls to get his poke on, he's gettin' it on to the max.
the mullet is why people hate you. so go to your barber; tell him you're sick of looking like an asshole. cut that mullet.
scott
that was so off it was funny. Who are all of those old people people anyways? Here's the real AlexB:
dumb ass sheriff comin to check my A/C,
body's gonna be with the bats in the belfry.
punk ass bitches Rounder and Fossilman ain't got class,
Better get their DMX on, or I'll be tearin a new hole in their ass.
I wake up at like 6 am and go out strapped,
gotta go now, take care my case of da clap.
peace out dawg, one love
AlexB
Now don't that sound goofy?
Maniac
It was Halloween and the sprits were in the air, better go to the casino and hide from the tricks and treaters.
But woooo is he who tries to hide from the ghosts and what nots, that walk the walk on Halloween night. They find their way into the casino, and into the hearts of Hold'em player.
The SPM was playing his best game, for many this would be their C or maybe D game. By the dinner bell half of his meager bank roll had sliped into the stacks of the other players. The game was short so dinner seemed a good bet. And free...
Returning from dinner the SPM found only his chips on the table. All the fishermen had left, maybe the SPM was the fish and with no fish in the pond the game broke.
Well the 5-10 hold'em game had a seat open and the game looked easy. The SPM took a seat and within no time at all they took a nice bite out of the remaining bank roll. The 5-10 pond was filled with sharks, and the SPM was dinner.
Finally a seat opened in another game and the SPM ran to that seat. Safe from the sharks, now it was time to show the players how to ...leap tall odds with a single card...
It didn't take long before the SPM had only enough chips to pay the big blind, and to call the flop, and pay two thirds of a bet after the turn. All in and heads up, the flop was KJx, the SPM had King of clubs and duce of nothing. The other player turn his cards up, he had KJ two big ugly pair, but the SPM got lucky and spiked a club flush on the river.
Oh this story gets better.
The SPM clawed and scratched his way back to even, then he was up, then up more, then up even more, it was beautiful.
Now it was the wee hours of the morning. Time for the SPM to take the money and run, but just one more hand, one more round, the SPM was so close to doubling todays bank roll. Lets call it GREED.
Well I didn't loose but I sure didn't leave with much above even either. Greed is ugly!
The moral of the story is... there is none, just history repeating itself.
Thanks for listening, I feel better. And I hope when you get even and up ton, you'll be smart and go home and get a good nights sleep. I know I wish I had.
SPM, ...able to bend cards with his bare hands...
read an article in on of the mags this weekend. I believe it was a Helmuth thing. It concerned a hand played by none other than Doyle Brunson and our own David "Oz" sklansky. It was the big one. A tournament. It must have been high lo stud. O.K. I forget all the details. So sue me.
Went something like this; deciding hand. Sklansky has 8,7,6,,4 and Brunson has 8,7,6,1 or somethin similar. Well it seems that mat ignorant Doyle just kept on a' raisin' old math whiz Sklansky who also kept on a raisin. Seems ol' Doyle won the hand. But our wizard, not to be out done, explained to the Big guy how his hand, David's that is, was gonna be a big winner in the long run. I guess Doyle saw the errors of his ways and as he walked away with all the cheese he vowed to take an algebra course. So that the next time the hand came up he could fold, I guess.
Gee, the mathematical favorite and Oz still lost. Go figure.
Vince
Poker is an art not a science.
that point only proves you are neither an artist nor a scientist. poker is a game and all of your hackneyed platitudes only speak to your inability to form original sentences.
scott
it's mind over matter. i don't mind cause you don't matter.
come back when you grow up. we can play headsup no limit anytime. and i will crush you.
have fun with your cookie cutter math and your 1 big bet an hour. i'm out of here.
scott speaking on behalf of rounder
You forgot "brevity is the sole of wit" you twit.
didn't you mean to respond to me? why did you respond to yourself?
i should point out how much i appreciated your rhyme of twit and wit. brilliant. can you think of any others? i'll get you started. it, elaborate (the adjective not the verb), granite, inuit. alright, now it's your turn.
scott
Granite rhymes with nit(wit)
you twit
Inuit is like intuit -- ive
you derivat -- ive
Of snakes and thangs
Like orang--a--tangs
So, get back in class; go
sit down on your grass
it's much much softer to sit
than that damp gray granite
you've offered to Rounder
as a place - for -- his rhyme to flounder.
vince
Gosh I wish I knew what this meant.
i wish i knew what it meant too. but i sure enjoyed reading it.
scott
I think you've both had aces cracked one too many times ;-)
Vince,
Me and my student who is sitting next to me and all I can say is "WOO", and then "WOO" and considering our situation this is very entertaining indeed.
Regards,
Rick
i am glad to hear you're laughing, but i'd rather hear your laughing. perhaps this winter.
scott
scott,
Email me before you come and I can send you my beeper/cell/phone number (I'm getting just "so LA" these days). Let's hook up for sure for sure. We will even check out "Dark Angel" in the meantime.
Regards,
Rick
Hey Rick,
If your student sounds that good when she says "WOO" I want to meet her. "WOO, WOO, WOO".
Gosh, I wish I knew if that "WOO" was a good "WOO" or a not so good "WOO". You know like a "OOH WOO".
Vince.
Vince,
You wrote: "Gosh, I wish I knew if that "WOO" was a good "WOO" or a not so good "WOO". You know like a "OOH WOO"."
It's definitely NOT a "WOOF WOOF" :-).
Rick
I believe that brevity is the "soul" of wit.
The "sole" of wit is likely made out of a polymer or a weird-looking fish.
someone, probably shakespeare, wrote "brevity is the sole of wit" as a pun. since then, morons have copied the line without understanding that it was meant to be a pun. rounder is the king of these morons. his powers come from his royal sunglasses.
scott
Actually, it doesn't.
Both players (Doyle and Sklansky) thought they had the best of it on 4th street in this hand. Obviously, only 1 of them was correct. However, neither of them had a BIG edge. In this case, even though he was getting slightly the worst of it, Doyle won the hand. Nothing about the result says anything about who was right. This is just a less dramatic example of a guy going all-in with you in a NL HE game when he thinks he's ahead, and then he catches his 1-outer on the river to beat your better hand. In both cases, both players thought they had the best of it.
Now, the better question is why would these 2 players go to war on 4th street thinking they have the best of it when they both now that the bet of it, in this case, isn't much of an edge? I guess they both respected each other so much that they felt it a good idea to put in a lot of money now with a slight edge rather than play it slow and hope to find a bigger edge later.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Well, I don't know what the hand was, or what either player thought, but if _I_ was in the hand, I'd think that I'd like to give myself opportunities to outplay the opponent later in the hand as well, so if not sure, I'd steer the pot towards something where the later decisions aren't so automatic.
JG
JG,
Sounds like you would rather PLAY poker than count the ways you can win. Gee, now isn't that special.
vince
Actually, since I played at Casino Arizona almost every day last month and never saw Jim, I'm beginning to wonder if he plays at all.
Maybe I should issue a challenge when I go back down there next week.
I don't really understand Vince's post, but I will say that you probably haven't seen my at CA since they reneged on the smoking thing. It might be better now with the new system, but since that time I've found a wonderful smoke free casino in my home that has proven to be quite lucrative. But even before that, I've probably played less this year than in any of the previous 18. When I finish my master's thesis, you'll see me around more.
JG
Jim,
You said that you would rather give yourself an opportunity to out play your opponent on later streets. I believe in that whole heartedly. Sklansky decided that since he was the mathematical favorite at that point in the hand to get everything in the pot if possible. I'm sure that he is theoretically correct. The problem is that in this case since he was in a tournament if he loses the hand he's done. Dead. caput. finished. Even in live games who can tell how many times you need to make this play before you can be assured of a positive return. The fact is that even though Sklansky was the mathematical favorite at that point in the hand, Brunson was still ahead. Both ways. Sklansky left himself no room by betting everything on the come regardless of how many outs he had. I don't know what the odds of him winning were but I bet they weren't significant. I would rather PLAY the whole hand given the situation described.
Vince
Boy, I gotta pay more attention. (In my defense surfing with lynx isn't optimal for reading comprehension.) So you say this was a tournament? In that case, I don't like either's play at all for a multiple of reasons, of course once again I'm basing my opinion on what I think others are interpreting for me. If I had a slightly larger attention span right now I'd try and contribute something to what I'm sure we're talking about by going through every post, but in the absence of my doing that, I'll say it's wrong to get all your money in on a coinflip (if that's what it was) due to the decreasing marginal utility of tournament chips at any point other than the very onset of a very large tournament, and even then it would be an error to go to war on a close hand with a player of coequal top ability when there is an opportunity cost of being knocked out of the tourney and being forbidden from acquiring equity from the weaker players. And once again, if this has nothing to do with the original situation which is so far removed from my memory I don't know what kind of analogy to employ then I apologize. When I get home, I'll try to surf with a graphical browser and see if it's not too late to contribute something meaningful other than my new fave poker milieu.
JG
Vince and Jim:
You guys apparently don't have the same picture of the scenario that I do, because I can't believe you would be saying what you are saying if you did. I just reread the article:
1) they are heads-up with about the same amount of chips.
2)My impression is that they were the only two finalists left in the tournament. This is supported by Doyle's statement, "I caught good cards and scooped the pot, and claimed the championship." He does not say he "went on" to win the tournament, he says he "claimed the championship. This pretty clearly suggests that Sklansky finished second in the tournament and that this was the final hand.
3) Given this scenario, there is no reason for either of them to try to delay a confrontation until later in the hand. Two world class players such as themselves are not going to be likely to be making significant misplays later in the hand especially in 7S Hi-Lo Split No Qualifier since this is inherently such a mathematical game anyway. In other words they could basically forget about bluffing the hand or about hoping that the other player would make a bad call.
4) Vince's point that Brunson is ahead at the moment for both high and low is completely misleading since the only way to be ahead on 4th Street in this form of poker when heads-up is to be ahead for scooping chances. In other words on 4th street Brunson is behind, period. The fact that his hand "looks" better for high and low is a pure mirage.
5) Given all of the above and combined with the fact that the future utility of tournament chips does not really apply significantly here, it looks like David going ahead with this hand was indeed his best play and best chance of winning the tournament. Doyle knew a thing or two about hi-lo even in those days and I doubt if David could foresee a better chance to get Doyle over a barrel than this.
M..
Given the situaion you describe I find no fault with going all in with the mathematical advantage. It would be foolish to state otherwise. when I started this thread it was more in jest, poking fun at mathies more than anything else. JG mentioned prefering more play than what was described. My comments to him were more along the line of how I prefer to play live poker. I like to give myself opportunities throughout the hand to outplay my opponnents. Maybe something as simple as a bet on a later street wiht a scary board could win the hand for me. Of course the same is true for my opponent. But that is still my preference.
If I were offered 51-49 on an unbiased coin toss I would take it every time. Would I bet all my money each time? No. I guess you know why not.
Suppose the game were NL holdem. Each opponent equal in chips. Blinds not a factor. Sklansky picks up Q,Q. Brunson bets all in and accidently drops his A,K face up on the table. 1) Should Sklansky call? Now add this factor. Sklansky knows more about the game than Brunson (I believe that was part of the scenario, Sklansky knew more about hi/lo than Brunson.) Should he call? What if the hands were reversed, Same questions.
If you believe these are clear calls in all situations we need not discuss this anymore. I beleive none of them are clear. In fact I believe that since the only money in the pot before the all in bet is insignificant blinds Sklansky should fold each hand where he is the better player. That just may be the reason that we have a World Champion named Jesus and not T.J. T.J. had out played this guy for the entire final table and then with one all in bet with an A,Q he lost. I believe he made a mistake.
Vince
Vince,
I took my mom to Vegas to watch TJ play against Jesus. After the first few hours she was convinced that TJ would beat Jesus. After he had won that hand with three kings and trapped Jesus, he started putting pressure on him. Winning a little bit at a time. Then he blew it on the last hand. He knew his opponent would probably have an ace and knew his hand was better. The better play would have been to call Jesus and bet the pot on the flop. From watching the way Jesus would play, I think he would have folded on the flop. I forgot which book it was, but Sklansky talks about using a strategy for beating your opponent without putting yourself in a high risk situation by betting it all at once. Furthermore, in Doyle's book Super/System he tell a story of how him and his opponent (his opponent was a drunk) kept on reraising each other. Doyle had the best of it, but the longshot came through and he lost his bankroll. You get it Vince, right?
In both of the examples you cite there were opprtunities for someone to seriously outplay their opponent later on if they didn't go broke before they had the chance to do so. I doubt if this was the case in the Sklansky/Brunson tournament scenario, especially because the game was 7CS Hi-Lo Split No Qualifier.
In NL Hold'em it is very different. This is because in NL Hold'em so much depends on reading the other player. In 7CS Hi-Lo No Qualifier when heads-up against a good player it is almost entirely reading his cards, not reading his person, and figuring the chances of scoop vs. scoop and factoring in the pot size.
By the way I would have addressed this to Rounder too but I didn't see much point. He seems to think that poker as art has something to do with why Doyle won this or why Sklansky lost.
This happened in an O8 tournament. These two were the last two players. The blinds were probably so large there was no choice but to go all in. Obviously DS went all in, and Doyle called him, hoping to win the tournament.
David's hand would scoop more often than Doyle's, but the edge was very small.
I have no idea what Rounder's point is or how this proves it.
Or maybe, they'd already made a deal and didn't really care about the title or the bracelet (I'm assuming they were already giving out bracelets back in 1977).
I don't get your point.
So,
Are you saying that Sklansky lost this hand *because* of his math skills?
Are you saying that knowing poker math is detrimental to your results?
Are you saying that *most* winning players don't know and don't need poker math?
If you are, I think that you are wrong.
On the other hand, if you are saying that poker math alone is not enough and that you have to also master the art of poker in order to *really* succeed, you are of course correct.
But here's another hypothesis:
A fellow who knows his poker math is more likely to master the art of poker than a fellow who doesn't know his poker math.
Put another way: Someone who takes the time to study poker math is more likely to master the art of poker than someone who shuns poker math all together.
Do you agree with that?
It has absolutely nothing to do with proving your point one way or the other. Unless of course Doyle went out and bought a sculpture with his winnings.
I am going to the San Diego area in a few weeks to spend time with some family memebers during Thanksgiving. My cousin tells me there is a big card room by where she lives-Ocean's 11. I was wondering if anyone could give me the low down on it. Thanks.
This is (or at least was, I moved away 2 years ago) the best poker room in San Diego County. Games from 1-5 stud hi-lo up to 40-80 HE and Pot limit HE/Omaha. Ask John Feeney if you need more details. This is his regular haunt.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Things are pretty much the same at Ocean's 11. The pot limit game is real strong. The 40-80 is being spread about 4 to 5 days per week and the 20-40 game is being played almost around the clock.
Bruce
I found it a well run card room and many of the players were above average IMHO. Unlike a lot of the SoCal card rooms.
Fred,
I try to make it down there at least once a month or so. It is a very well run room by cardroom standards. Besides the bigger games Bruce noted, there is a 3/6 and 4/8 holdem and Omaha along with an 8/16 holdem. Their tournaments can be a great value and the food is good.
Also, don't forget to let the floorman know when you arrive so he can track hours. They comp your food if they know you have played a certain number of hours. But then again, it is cheap anyway.
Also in Eastern San Diego County are the Indian Casinos Viejas and Sycuan (sp?). They tend to have smaller games but also have slots and stuff like that. In Chula Vista there are a couple rooms also along with a sprinkling of small clubs around the downtown area (I've never been to these).
Regards,
Rick
Maybe my memory is going, but in the Dark Angel episode on Tuesday, the russian mafia guys invite Jessica into the back room to play five card stud after she cleans up the roulette table. They then proceed to play five card draw. Ah well, at least she is nice to look at.
Yeah, and she memorizes the deak as she riffles. Supposedly an honest riffle, but she deals her opponent a pat KKKJJ while she takes two (tosses QQ) and draws a 10 and 7 for a J high straight flush. cool memory and lucky deal or too much Hollywood? who cares, Jessica alba is hot!!
i noticed that too, but it didn't bother me much. you see, i was stoned. i suggest that you get stoned every tuesday night as well. it makes dark angel even better.
scott
To quote the chubbie Trekkie from the Simpsons..."I sure hope someone got fired for that."
Who cares. Jessica Alba is a fox, man.
Today, Spirit Mtn in Oregon officially goes non-smoking. I plan to “jump ship” from The Last Frontier in La Center where I play once per week (because that is all I’ve been able to stand health wise) until they too adopt a non-smoking policy of some kind. I like playing there, but I’m gonna be scarce. I talked to another non-smoker who is also looking at Spirit Mtn and passing the word to other non-smokers who grumble regularly about the conditions at La Center.
To obtain information in support of a smoking ban at La Center, I checked with a few of the casinos that went non-smoking recently to see if they have experienced any negative affects from the move. I talked to two card room managers in California, Frank Lovaglia at Bay 101 and Crystal King at The Bicycle Club. The California card rooms were forced by law to go non-smoking 3 years ago. I also talked to Kathy Raymond at Foxwoods in Connecticut.
Frank Lovaglia at Bay 101 said they saw about a 10% sag in attendance that lasted maybe 2 months. We speculated that all of the card rooms experienced that as a protest to having it forced upon them. Now that it is normal, he can detect no negative affects to the smoking ban.
Crystal King at Bicycle Club said that their patrons balked for about a week or so. She reported no loss of revenue at all. The players feel better; they play longer and enjoy the nicer atmosphere. Even the employees who smoke didn’t like the smoking at the tables.
Probably the most positive response was from Kathy Raymond, the director at Foxwoods. They and Mohegan Sun went non-smoking in April of this year. They went together to avoid any defections, as they are only 7 miles apart. They responded to a petition signed by over 500 of their players. After the voluntary move, they suffered no negative affects (read no financial loss, which is the criteria for a sound business decision). They received 98% positive feedback, even from the smokers. No lost patrons, and actually report an increase in returning players who could/would not play because of the offensive atmosphere. She said that it was a good decision and the response was “overwhelmingly positive”
I’m not circulating a petition, not going to organize a boycott and not going to file a class action lawsuit. Don’t have to, now we have an alternative vendor who offers what non-smoking players are looking for. I’m hoping that the management at The Last Frontier will take the initiative to poll their players quickly, (before all they have left are smokers) and determine if a majority of the players would support a smoking ban. If the majority of the players at TLF support the smoke, then so be it.
SjP - Email me - perhaps we can head there together...
BTW - even as a smoker, I would support a player poll re: a decision to go nonsmoking, and live with whatever the results are... tim (trying hard to be scott)
When are you and your posse gonn'a hit the AC casinos? Pretty easy trip from Columbia at least by bus/car (train sucks).
We won't be 21 for a year and a half, in scott's case two years. Also, our fake ID's suck big time, and we don't want to get our legs broken. if you got any suggestions for us playing, We'd be glad to heae it
Maniac
I seriously doubt the staff at the Taj will break your legs if you try to play on a fake ID. Just a suspicion. . .oh yeah, and the fact that I've seen young player get caught many times before.
It's almost impossible to get tossed while attempting to play poker. I've gotten carded once in my entire life in a poker room. Compare that to blackjack, where I always get carded by the dealer, then the pit boss, then sometimes the shift boss. Every time I sit down, even in the biggest shitholes in Las Vegas.
Besides, aren't you supposed to be a maniac, or something? You should be able to mop the floor with three or less Taj goons.
We's about to have words bitch. The issue isn't gettin tossed, the issue is cashing in 300 bones and then not being able to cash out, or not being able get my chips on from the start. Goons don't bother me, so long as they keep their hands of my chedda. They get greedy, it won't be an ass whoopin, I can tell you that. I'm just trying to keep it real dawg. But if they got eyes on my bank, then they get the shank. right in one ear and out the other. Chew on that bitch.
Maniac
Wow! Can I like quote you in my memoirs? You gotta bitchin way wit da woids, Man. Fuugettaboutit!
vince
Don't try and be a hero bitch. Hard headed punks always get it first, I busted caps in bitches for less then that dawg, so don't be playing me like you think you some bad ass. I ain't tryin to come down on your shit, I just keepin it real. aight, peace out, just watch your shit.
Maniac
I'm not sure what's going on in these posts but I think that we are getting away from our posting guidelines. Please try to be a little more civil towards each other.
Thanks, Mason
Mason,
Maybe you should put a ban on ebonics in the poting guidelines. Profanity is one thing, but this ghetto english looks really bad. Kris
I think Maniac Mark has a talent for lingo but it is perhaps a bit misguided. He might consider acquiring, say, an Irish or Scottish brogue to fall back on when this rap thing wears out. There truly is no dumber sounding lingo than what is now glorified in this form of commercialized music.
This stuff makes the "dese, dem and doze" guys look like geniuses by comparison. Mark my woids.
More like "Moronics" - Beavis and Butt-heads dialect.
Perhaps Maniac Mark (or should I call him M&M or Eminem) has been reading the Herbert Kornfeld column archives in theonion.com? If not, he should. Some of the best "gangsta" satire one will ever read.
Jon I.
Lepore still uses fake ID's. He ain't never gonn'a grow up. He'll attest to that. I did not realize that Scott et.al were not quite the magic age. Oh well, who am I to suggest better ID's. Perhaps a time machine...
If you buy "Poker Essays" and "Poker Essays 2", Mason will probably leave you alone.
And if you want it, just bring it. I roll 20 deep at all times.
Now if I am to unnerstan u correctly you are saying "Whassup! right?
Vince
Yo. I hang with my Columbia peeps, and they ain't no way that we gettin in at the Taj or Trop or anything. I used to play there when I had a moustache, but last time I went they wouldn't let me sit.
And alexB and scott look younger than I do.
KRA
at the Trop this weekend. If they were 21, then I am 35
When I bluff while playing no-limit hold'em my heart will pound like it's going to EXPLODE! It's easy to see my veins, so it's easy to see them pulsate. Do you have any advice on how I can calm myself during an all-in bluff?
-Dan
Go buy one. If not, then borrow one. Unless Michael 7 has misled me, SmoothB has an extra one kicking around.
Search the archives.
ukw
Eat a lot so you can gain a lot of weight. Get very very fat. Very fat people don't have visible veins on their necks, thanks to their double and triple chins. Be a pig!!!
When you are not bluffing, hold your breath and turn your face beat red. I would love to see that.
When you do this, make sure you had not just gulped down a tall glass of prune juice along with your humongous bean burrito.
This pulsating is clearly an emtional problem, and can be controled with therapy. Therefore I am going to refer to my personal on line Doctor, B.F. Skinner. Your very lucky because he will do the consuling right here on 2+2.com
SPM, ...faster than a speeding rush...
Sub clinical doses of Beta blockers are used by people who have to give speeches andoften hav a rapid heart beat. Ask a doctor.
I believe it was Nick the Greek who said that in order to calm himself down during a big bluff, he'd just pretend that he's looking at a beautiful sunset. I read the same advice made by a well known tournament player (I forget which one) in CardPlayer a few months ago. My favorite technique for detaching myself from excitement or nervousness during a hand is to disassiociate. Instead of saying to myself, "I'm going to make this bluff", I instead say to myself "I'm going to watch myself do this bluff", and as I do, I literally do watch myself do the bluff in my mind's eye. This skill takes some practice to master but once you get good at it, it's pretty easy to do. I suggest that every other time you read/make a post on two plus two that you do an "out of body experience" exercise. That is, like a spirit, float above your body and as you do watch that other you down there read/write a post. If you're persistent, you'll find that you'll be able to easily do it at the table also.
Once upon a time in a land called Hold'em, to mighty Kings were introduced to the Suburban Poker Man.
He told them,if you combine your forces, you can rule the land called Hold'em. He told them of the riches they could share, and they liked what they heard.
So they raised and army and called it Chips, and the two Kings moved the army into the battle field early one morning.
The Kings were told by the SPM, that if they raised a loud enough battle cry, all opposition would fold to their supieror forces.
The battle cry was loud, and a newlywed King and Queen of different nationalities, heard the battle cry. Their mariage was new, and they felt they were not strong enough to fight the two mighty Kings and their army of Chips.
But they had a court jester who told them he had a plan. They listen to his plan, and decided to fight the two mighty Kings.
The court jester said, "Raise the stakes, and make the Kings pay for their aggresiveness." But the Kings fought back rasied the stakes even higher.
The King and Queen wanted to back down for they knew they were weak. But the Court Jester, said "NO!"
He told them a Flop of reinforcements will rally to your side and you will win the battle so just don't cry.
True to his word the reinforcements did come. There were nine knights, 10 men, and a man they called Jack.
The two Kings saw the rinforcements and wanted to run, but the SPM, was in charge, and demanded that they fight.
He told them they would get their Turn, and the battle could still be won.
At the turn in the road came another man name Jack. But he saw that the Kings were losing the fight.
They battled to the river and the Kings lost the fight.
The moral of the story is, " You may have a bad marriage but if you got a court jester, things might work out.
SPM, ...done in by a wacky court jester...
Where do aces come in in this story?
Stay tune to more adventures of the Suburban Poker Man, and who knows maybe Aces will apear.
SPM, ...more powerfull than pocket Aces...
You might be interested to know that the Jacks represent specific knights. The jack of spades is the Danish knight of Charlemagne, jack of hearts is Charles VII knight, jack of clubs is Lancelot, and jack of diamonds is Hector. The numbered cards do not represent anyone, but in the overall scheme of things, perhaps they would be considered merchants or peasants. In any event, when you consider that the Kings are King David, Charlemagne, Julius Caesar, and Alexander the Great, you had quite a war on your hands.
Earl,
Thanks for the info, the stroy of course was from a hand I played in Aurora, IL 10-20 hold'em. I wish I had your input before I wrote it...Thanks,
The info that is shared on this forum sometimes amazes me. Poker players aren't just gambling bums as non gamblers might think.
SPM, ...learning somthing new, every time I'm on 2+2...
Mason, why censure Mark's clownism, when you could censure Goat?
Goat is averse to ebonix? Well, I'm sorry goat, Mark speaks in Ebonix. Maybe you should return to the mountain man compound, and ask your barracks chief Ernie whether you are really supposed to be talking to strangers in the first place.
He'll say no, Goat. Trust me.
Stay in the compound, and wait for the sign.
For those of you who are not mountain men like Goat, the following message will not make sense because it is in code.
mounteen meen ees beeg uglee slimee and crazee
a.
Also, Goat, better check out your bio-suit. The virus is coming
Ebonix is not a language and lots of profanity is not usually necessary. You make it sound like it is his native tongue or something and Goat is calling for Mason to caution him against speaking Spanish.
Actually, Mason did not caution him against using ebonix. My guess is that Mason was merely responding to the amount of profanity and suggestions of violence in the posts. Goat mentioned something about perhaps banning the use of ebonics and I even then jumped in and said that I thought rap lingo is just a fad and that it sounds dumb. I do think Maniac Mark is talented, at least somewhat, and I do not think Mason would have cautioned him for talking rap-style if there had not been profanity/suggestive violence involved.
However, if rap-style speech must necessarily involve the use of lots of profanity and violent figures of speech, then this supports my contention that it sounds dumb. Besides, many people do find profanity and suggestions of violence objectionable.
I don't see anything wrong with anyone using any lingo they care to. But I do understand those who object to profanity and suggestions of violence.
It is clear that ebonics is not a language. If you took all of "ebonics" and removed the profanity and allusions of violence, how much would be left? Just curious.
i speak not ebonics. i speak not electronics. i speak not hooked on phonics. i speak none of the perversions of language that the man, the white devil, wants me to speak so that i may play the fallstaffian fool the tragic comedy that is the daily suffering of the black man in modern america. we, my brothers and i, must assert ourselves independently of the white devil. we, my brothers and i, must develop our own language. not a perversion of the white man's language, mind you, but a new language. our own language. a beautiful language. one that will ring from the ivory coast to deepest forests of the congo.
we, my brothers and i, must celebrate our intellect. we must celebrate our beauty. we must celebrate our very blackness, if we ever hope to escape the clutches of the evil white devils.
my brothers, were we not taught in the devil's schools that the greatest ancient civilizations were the greeks and the romans of southern europe? we were! and that is yet another one of the white man's filthy lies, meant to subjugate us and humiliate us and make us slaves. let me tell you, my brothers, about the sublime kingdoms of africa, our homeland, our true birthplace. the first writing was by a black man. the first mathematics was by a black man. the first government was by a black man. the first art was by a black man. anything worth doing, was done first by a black man.
so, my brothers, let us not sate ourselves with the scraps from the devil's table. let us strike out and recreate our own kingdom. a place where the black man can flourish and let us create our own kingdom free from the pollution of the white devil. mark my words, the white man is the devil and he will try to destroy you. it's kill or be killed.
black power.
scott
The above post is sufficient reason to go to Columbia.
lol, O
great! now that you're on board, try to persuade jessica alba. i figure she's in need of an education.
scott
True that brother. Don't be f*ckin with the black man.
Scott,
Are you black? That's so cool!
Vince
*
all day long you waddle around, quacking and eating fruit. why don't you just go take a nap on some warm rock? i am sick of your ingratitude. sometimes, i even regret the day i saved your life.
brother mininster scott
Scott,
The type of thinking shown above in what I called nonsense is the very type of thinking that fosters racism. The only difference is that this racism uses the excuse of having been first wronged.
Alll throughout history there have unfortunately been various cultures who used slaves (hopefully that will soon be completely gone forever). The Great Pyramids were built by slave labor. The Soviet Union used much slave labor in its prison camps. There are many other examples stretching back through earliest recorded history.
Blacks are not the only peoples to have been enslaved. Whites are not the only people to have used slaves. In fact I would be surprised if Blacks did not at some time over the ages in Africa use slave labor of some sort.
Now all this does not of course make slavery right. But it does show that calling whites devils based on this is unfounded.
Hopefully some day racism of all kinds will be gone forever and will be only a historical memory. That goes for Black racism too, Scott.
your problem is that you have an opinion about everything. Even the stuff you don't know anything about.
Uston to M: De la Soul
For that matter, Tribe Called Quest, Mos Def, The Roots, Common
John Cole to M : Ebonix correction
scott to M : black power is not black racism
sheesh, You have to have be wise about something. is it poker? why don't you talk about poker. Is it classical music? Then just talk about why you like classical music.
alex
ps. Don't bother defending yourself against me. After all, I'm only in ninth grade
AlexB,
Of course black power is not necessarily black racism. But whoever wrote or said the words in scott's post was expressing clearly racist sentiment in the parts of the post that referred to whites as devils and said it's kill or be killed. Don't try to tell us that that is black power not black racism. The parts of the post expressing pride in one's heritage were what might be called black power. The parts of the post that were anti-white and violent were clearly and strongly black racist.
Hey Alex, I know about everything. I bet I even know as much about De la Soul as you! (I fooled you on that Billy madison thing [search engines are great {oh, that was the *only thing I don't know all about}], but this time I'm not fooling.) De la Soul is cool because, with their suburban Long Island roots, they came at rap from an angle a little different from the usual hard core urban gansta take on the young African American experience. Well, I'm not saying I really know their music. I'm just hip to the whole De la Soul thing. Can you dig it? I knew that you could. (That's beat nick talk - just my little way of looking across the generations, from Doby Gillis to Snoop Dog, and bridging the gap. Peace.)
LOL. This post is just another example of why I respect you. Closer to my generation (the who). Of course, you're a lot older than me, but what the hell? BTW, how am I supposed to email you when your address isn't posted? Even Dalla doesn't hide from me.
3-bet -- I'll have my people call your people, and they'll do lunch. Me, I'm hiding from Dalla.
M,
Not only has literally every culture in the world used slaves at one time or another, but the slaves brought to America were furnished by black tribes. The slaves consisted of defeated members of other tribes captured in battles or raids of other black villages. I am in no way condoning our past history of slave trade, just illuminating the fact that every black slave brought to this country from Africa was sold by another black man. Which only proves that two wrongs don't make a right. And Scot, your last post hinted that you are a man of the cloth. Do you really think God is on the side of a blatant racist and hate-spewing idiot?
Think about it.
M,
Some might contend that ebonics, rather than being a perversion of the language, is actually a simplification of English and follows a set of "rules" much like any other language. It makes more "sense" to use the verb "to be" followed by the "ing" form of the word to express certain conditions. For example, "I be driving to Providence" is perfectly coherent, and using "be" in all other forms of the present tense is much easier than changing the form of the verb "to be." So we get "I be driving; you be driving; he be driving" instead of "I am driving; you are driving; he is driving."
The basic principles of ebonics, then, follow the pattern of other changes in English over the centuries as the living speakers of the language have simplified its structure and grammar.
John
John,
I can see your point regarding this specific "grammar" example. I know little or nothing about ebonics. Even if what you are saying holds true for many other examples, ebonics is still not a language although it might qualify as a dialect.
I do not know whether ebonics is the same as rap lingo or not. I am not objecting to dialects or the like. All I know is that rap lingo sounds dumb and contains much that is objectionable, and if rappers can't make their points without continual allusions of violence and profanity then they probably do not have a great many valid points to make. The profanity and violence in rap is a commercial filler, much like graphic violence and suggestions of sex are on prime-time TV. If ebonics is indeed a dialect, then it is too bad if these negative aspects of rap have thoroughly permeated it.
Why are you reading this when I put a N/T in the subject title????????????????????????????????
The insurance salesman in Bullworth who says something along the lines of
"Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods. I have no problem with these men, these men have jobs. But you take a crack smoking, rap listening junkie, who is just living off welfare and keeps having babies and you tell me that I have to sell this person an insurance policy?"
Your junior sociology training suspects rap music as part of the social pathology of youth culture.
Well mine is reminded of something. First, your earnest and didactic posts, as usual, reflect the mindset of a 9th grade history teacher who relishes the moment of correcting his students for spelling "Soviet Block" with a "k".
You know what that gets you? Mea Culpa's out of ninth graders, and polite corrections from serious people when you go on to try to analyze something more complex than spelling.
a.
even when it was the bears i knew was really the soviets.
it's hard enough to remember the silent 'c' in the word "block" without worrying about whatever the damn commies do to it.
arrrr... i'm the sea captain.
scott
well anyway I'm still outraged.
You still haven't answered my question (what is a Bio-Suit?). By the way are you trying to say that I am a racist in your above post? If you are, then you better think twice about what you say, you don't even have a fucking clue what race I am. It isn't only whites that are punks and/or conservatives. Have fun trying to be a smart-ass and keep assuming things about people you don't even know- that will get you real far in this world.
made you look.
scott
A racist goat? Hmmm... probably just a wanna be llama.
Vince.
Vince,
Know what a lllama is?
Answer: It's when a bunch of fire trucks show up.
From your kindred spirit, Ogden Nash.
AlexB: I just don't like rap. I don't like the hard grating edge, and I think there is way too much glorification of violence in it, and way too much casual reference to violence as being a custyomary approach to solving problems.
I could care less about spelling andI generally don'e even bother to proofread muy own posts.
I think Maniac Mark was being funny and showing a bit of his talent. That's great. I don't even mind that he used profanity. Some people probably do, however.
Somehow this discussion eveolved from a light discussion into a heavy one. I have nothing against dialects or people of any background or people doing or saying what they feel.
I just don't like rap and I think it is a poor excuse for art. That's just my opinion and I'm entitled to it. That does not mean I am saying anything else.
I just don't like rap. I don't like the hard grating edge, and I think there is way too much glorification of violence in it, and way too much casual reference to violence as being a custyomary approach to solving problems.
M-If this is your contention, then I hereby set the line at 11:1 that you have never heard of De La Soul. Any takers?
I guess you are saying that this group is an exception. You could have offered 100:1.
Surely there must be exceptions, and I haven't bothered to investigate them because most of what I've heard on the radio is as I've described above.
Besides, I generally prefer music that is a bit more complex. Rap is possibly the most repetitious-sounding music I've ever encountered.
M - a warning about what you may have heard on the radio
Green Day is not punk
Motley Crue is not heavy metal
Kenny G is not jazz
Dionne Warwick is not a soul singer
Eric clapton does not play the blues
UB40 is not reggae
phil collins is not rock'n'roll
OK. Interesting.
While of course sometimes I hear music I really like on the radio (from various genres), most of what I generally catch on the radio is pretty mediocre. It is easy to spend more time flipping stations than listening while driving. How can all that crap sell-it's a mystery to me-- just like how soap operas and the bulk of what's on TV ever got made into scripts in the first place.
Where the hell did you come from???? This is a great post, except for the fact that Green Day did indeed used to be a punk band. They were on Lookout records which is a small punk label. But you are right they are no longer a true punk band. Motley Crue is total wussy shit compared to the Black and death metal bands which are all underground outfits.
I guess you are saying that this group is an exception. You could have offered 100:1.
Surely there must be exceptions, and I haven't bothered to investigate them because most of what I've heard on the radio is as I've described above.
Besides, I generally prefer music that is a bit more complex. Rap is possibly the most repetitious-sounding music I've ever encountered.
#
What the hell are you talking about??? Mountain men, talking to strangers, sending a virus????? You got issues dude. My post was more a joke then anything, obviously I know Mason isn't going to ban ebonics. Some of you guys are sure touchy. By the way what the hell is a bio-suit?
I just want to elborate to get this point across: I was saying to "ban" ebonics in jest. I belive censorship is in general a bad thing (but not always). Anyway, to those of you who took great offense at what I said, just relax and don't get all crazy over one comment by me. Kris
How could you be so uncool as to not know what a bio-suit is?
Black pride is racism, but what you gonna do about it?
Rap music to the max. I go to McDonalds to listen to the rap music.
Your mom's an astronaut.
KRA
McDonald's is perhaps a rather fitting place for rap music. :-)
Your mom's bed is perhaps a rather fitting place for me to spend the night.
one.
An artful attempt at a change of subject. You were the one who said you go to McD's to listen to the rap music. I merely noted the correlation.
Hmmmm, still never answered my question, that figures. As far as black pride I pay no attention. It is totally ignorant to me just like the KKK. Both philosophies are dumb and not even worth thinking about. On the other hand something like the ACLU or NAACP (which was once a respectable cause)is bad news and that kind of stuff I do worry about but not much. Poker is more important. How did you know my mom was an astronaut?
Punksnotdead Kris
Kind of Blue, and Appalachian Spring, and "Crazy," and the soundtrack to Pyscho all make NPR's list of the top one hundred most influential pieces of American music of the 20th century. Check it out at npr.org.
"Hang Down Your Head Tom Dooley" also makes the list.
John
Will check it out, thanks, John.
Nirvana makes the list, but the Beatles don't. hmmm
Oaklahoma makes the list, but Saturday Night Fever doesn't...double hmmm
No Phil Spectre?
cool list sure to spark many debates.
2nd,
Keep in mind it's American music.
Note that NPR selects "Good Vibrations," but includes a picture of the jacket cover from Pet Sounds, which does not include the song.
John
John, I assume you're referring to the beatles when you say that it's an American Music list. Granted they were a british band, but the genre (rock and roll) is purely american. The same, of course, could be said about the stones.
Aint this the great thing about these lists, though?
Yeah, 2d, I love lists, too. Did you note the one piece of American music to make the list that no one has ever heard--John Cage's 4:33.
John
I absolutely cannot believe that "Eruption" of Van Halen I didn't make this list.
I'd also bitch that there isn't any Black Sabbath, but they're British so I guess I have to hold back.
Floored again, awestruck and dazzled dumb. Stricken by Mozart's Symphony in G minor, K. 550 ('Great', First Version) a couple nights ago, I have yet to recover.
is that symphony 40 in g minor? thats all i could find on napster.
brad
Yes. However, there were two versions.
By an Australian rock outfit called Dirty Three. IMO, they are hands down the best live act performing rock and roll today. Three piece violin, guitar, drums. Instrumental "rock" that is dissonant, emotional and loud, played by men who are all very accomplished at their instruments. Buy "Horse Stories" and you will not be sorry.
KJS
Will check it out.
From the AP write-up on last night's suns game as found at cnnsi.com:
"The Blazers, off to an 0-2 start for only the seventh time in the franchise's 31-year history, committed 26 turnovers, resulting in 29 points for the Suns."
Hello?!?!?! If every game is a coinflip, the expectation is 7.75.... 7, huh? That's really weird.
JG
Quick! What's the third quarter line for their next game?
I have a new email address at work and am new to MS outlook. Can someone give me step my step instruction on how to read and write to RGP using outlook?
Thanks in advance
kinish
kinish21@hotmail.com
knish,
This is not quite step by step but should get you close enough.
1) From the Outlet Express opening window go to Tools from the top and select Newsgroups. You will get a dialog box with three tabs.
2) Select the All tab then press Reset List. You will download a list of thousands of newsgroups (my server had 34,841).
3) Next you select the newsgroup you want. In this case it will be rec.gambling.poker. Once it is highlighted, press Subscribe.
4) Then Outlook Express should download message headers. It may take a while and you may be prompted to determine how many you want to keep (about 1000 or so is right).
5) By now you should be close enough to figure out how to get there.
Post again if you get hung up.
Regards,
Rick
It keeps telling me "The server could not be found." What's going on?
My netscape navigator is messed up; could that be it? (I have an intranet connection, and my internet explorer works just fine)
Mark,
You need to tell Outlook Express what your newsgroup server is. Go to the Tools Menu and select Accounts. You will get a dialog box. Select the News tab. Enter the news server supplied by your ISP (it should be in your paperwork or you can call them).
Usually, the news server and mail server are similar so you may be able to guess. In my case, my mail handler is mail.earthlink.net. My news server is news.earthlink.net. It was similar when I had an ATT Worldnet account for a trial.
Hope this helps.
Rick
In one of the many poker books I have, I read a recomedation about and author, or book, etc.
The passage sugested you could learn how to improve your deductive reasoning. But, I can't rembember where I read it or what the recomendation was...
Can anyone help?
SPM, ...lost in the maze...
Is that the one suggesting a brain transplant???
:-)
Rounder,
I went to Harra's yesturday, I was hoping to play in your game. But once again you were a no show.
I thought for sure you would be there. All the working stiffs like me come out on Saturdays to play against the best.
You know FISH, the food of the Pro's. Was Saturday a paid holiday for you. When do you show up for work?
Brain transplant, I don't need no stinking brain trasplant, I'm just a little mixed up sometimes.
SPM, ...just another hold'em junkie...
If you have played baseball in Yankee stadium, golf at Augusta or tennis at Wimboldon - you woulen't expect a yankee to play in a sand lot a golfer to play at a driving range or a tennis player to play at a high school black top court. (Now I am not comparing myself to pros in these sports but just trying to make an analogy.)
That's my problem with the poker here in Chi town where I was born and raised and can't wait to be gone from.
Sorry SPM - unless you have experienced real card rooms these 3rd class accomidations just don't cut it as far as I am concerned. I'll be there now and then out of boredom but won't like it much.
I just got back from Foxwwods. I played $15-30 seven stud all night long. This is just a note to let you know kind of how things went.
I limped into a pot with the bring in and three ohter callers. I had an Ace up with a suted Jack in the hole and and off suit 5. Whether or not limping in this situation could be debated but it is not the point of this note. So be quiet and listen. On fourth street I made open Aces and bet $30. I was called by the only woman in the game. A player that never ever bluffs. That's right never ever bluffs. In fact she bluffs as often as Sklansky admits that he is wrong. Got it. She had a 5 for her door card and caught a ten on fourth street. I was concerned.
On fifth street I got my card first and it was a third Ace! So I had 3 open Aces on fith street. Her next card was a Ten giving her a five and 2 tens for a board.
I checked. She bet and I threw my open 3 Aces away. She very accomadatingly turned over here hole cards. Two more tens giving her quads.
Poker sucks!
Vince
you did everything right except fold in the beginning of the hand. it seems quads are poping up alot in the casinos, maybe something is going on:)
Z he was two-suited A high with limpers you should reconsider your statement!!!!
Pablo Gonzalez
Plus no one had a highest card on the board was a nine, lower than my jack.
Vince.
Vince,
What do you want from Z he plays too conservative!!! Just think it could of been worse Z could of had the 4 T's!!!
Paul
Nightmare on Z street. That's what that be. Bucko.
vince
Vince, you're incredible.
I know of almost no poker players who could fold such a hand no matter what they knew about this woman.
This is a serious post, no joking intended.
Do you think she learned anything? Like, maybe she should bluff just once in a while?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
"Do you think she learned anything? Like, maybe she should bluff just once in a while? "
No. In fact she said that she knew I wasn't going to call her but she bet anyway to get it over with. I folded because I was taught to play poker the Sklansky, Malmuth & Zee way. All three play the hand the same way on fifth street. Trust me. In fact, I normally do not limp with hands like this but after rereading 7 stud for advanced players I decided to limp a little morre often when the situation seems right. Of course I'm not sure they would limp here. But, even though I learned from them, I play better than they do so I feel that I can play more hands than they would.
Vince
Vince.
Vince I do not think that playing that hand at all qualifies as the S,M & Z way. I know it does not qualify as the "M" way.
Vince,
And the moral of this story? You never should have been there in the first place. *Giggle* It's called "poker justice".
"You never should have been there in the first place. "
I'm glad you "giggled" because this statemnent is not true.
Vince
Vince: If you were at my table I would be glad that you are glad that desire giggled, but since you are not I am sad that you are glad that desire giggled because I am sad (away from the table) that you think this is playable in this spot because I like you and wish you poker success. I know you think you are right and I am glad you have strong faith in yourself and while you cannot be wrong because you will eventually be right, in this matter your thinking is temporarily misguided. If this hand were at all playable the Ace would have to be hidden, and preferably the Jack too. Perhaps.
#
So now your going to tell me how to play stud. When you qualify your advice with: "If this hand were at all playable the Ace would have to be hidden" it tells me something about the way you think. You think like most good stud players. The fact of the matter is when you are last to act there are many valid reasons for calling with an Ace up and all live cards. I would much prefer that the other card be a King but since the Jack was higher than any other up card I was not out of line with this play. I also play split Aces this way occaisionally when I have a lot of limpers. It is not easy to put me on a hand unless you are the only other good player at the table. In a game full of weak players I play straight up so I become an easy read for another good player. Also, if the game is full of weak players I try and get in with them as often as possible and as cheaply as possible.
Having played stud you know that you may sit for hours waiting for the right hand in a tough game. I'm hyperactive so I need the action so I play more hands. Sue me!
Vince
Lawsuit filed.
Vince what r u doing wasting time posting like me when there are almost surely some excellent games at FW right this very moment. We are both incredibly lazy things so get ready and I will see you there. This is ridiculous. We should be ashamed for not putting in more (reasonable) hours and elevating ourselves and our bankrolls to the higher limits. You know how juicy some of those 40-80 Stud games are. Your As Js 5o would be a monster compared to some of those regular buffoons' hands. So let's take the bull by the horns and really beat the games 'til we can play there in 40-80 (and up) regularly instead of wasting so much time posting. If anything I am worse than you in this regard since I live close by. But I don't have an Oz hat so I still have an excuse.
Even if I am lazier than you it doesn't mean you are not also lazy. Marathons don't count against laziness.
M,
Are you speaking of playing "Marathons" or running the Marathon? And if so, who ran the Marathon?
Regards,
Rick
Vince and I have surely played many marathons. These are the marathons of which I speak.
If we tried the other marathon, only a last longer bet would make any sense.
"running the Marathon"
Rick,
I believe that the thought of marrying your student has clouded your perception of reality.
Vince
Vince,
Wouldn't the thought of marrying cloud anyone's judgment?
Dear Vince, I should have qualified my remark by stating that I would not have been in that hand in the first place. Playing hands like that has eaten away at my chips time and time again, and so I try to avoid getting involved with cards like Ace Jack five os.
It is true, however, that a more adroit and expert player than myself can reason his or her way into limping in with this hand. I am not an expert player though..and so I have certain criteria for starting hands that I really do try to adhere to. While I try to capitalize on the weaknesses of the players I am up against, for the most part I have found that these hands cost me more than they return. Just my experience, but again..I am nowhere near the talented player that you are.
I wish you continued success at the poker table, Vince.
"I am nowhere near the talented player that you are"
At last, an honest woman!
Vince
*gggggggrrrrrowwl*
Ray Zee is funny guy becuz of his dumb hair and ugly rear end.
Ray Zee not to smart becuz he eat toe fu and been curd.
1 time I see Ray Zee tell sum guy to shut up becuze if dumb guys like him keep talking the hole world be a big mess of cow dung (he actchully said some thing else but this be a family fore um)
I like Ray Zee becuz he was nice to me one time and tell me which way to go to the bath room.
Ray Zee good for the world becuz he bring lite in to the dark places. Ray Zee pretty nice guy.
Just got home from Las Vegas. Stayed and played at the incredibly beautiful Bellagio. Met Mason and played about 30 hours worth of 8-16 hold em and won $1020.00.
Best hand of the week. I was not involved. UTG opens for a raise, pretty tight. Plays any two suited (PATS) calls the raise and 5 see the flop of Q 9 7 rainbow. UTG checks, PATS checks, cutoff bets, button raises, bb folds, UTG folds, PATS calls, cutoff calls.
Turn is a fourth suit 6. PATS checks, cutoff checks, button bets, PATS calls, cutoff folds.
River is a 5.
PATS checks, button checks having seen PATS suckout 4 hands in the past two hours.
PATS says, "I've got the straight". She throws her cards and we all expect to see T8, J8, A8. But, no she shows 43s.
From what I saw this was not an aberration at the Bellagio 8-16. Players hold on to top pair weak kicker as if it were a life preserver. Cold calling UTG raises with 74s, A6o. Making it three bets with KTo. Quite a colorful bunch.
SammyB
"From what I saw this was not an aberration at the Bellagio 8-16. Cold calling UTG raises with 74s, A6o. Making it three bets with KTo. "
And?
Vince.
And . . . Fool that I am I was expecting a bit more sophistication than I find at the 3-6 at the Taj.
Just goes to show you know doesn't it. A fool and his expectant are soon flabbergasted. That'll learn ya!
Vince
Hey I just got back from Vegas too. The 8-16 games there are so easy on the weekends. I played only 11 hours but every time I play on weekend nights it's the same low caliber competition. The games seem just like the 6-12, 8-16 & 9-18 here in So.Cal but they are less agressive here. Maybe we played in the same game, you couldn't miss me(I had my hair in real thick spikes and it looked kind of crazy), I am just curious. On a side note the 3 2+2'ers I know of that were there this weekend cleaned up. You won, over $1,000, I won $575, and Mason won like $500(in only like 4 hours I think he said) on Saturday also. We took over 2k from the unseuspecting Bellagio fish. Okay later..... Kris
I did see you but we didn't play in the same game. Glad to hear you won as well.
SammyB
I've always heard, "Don't Date Your Co-Workers." The reason being that if and when things don't work out, it could make for a pretty awkward-feeling environment to work in.
Anyway, I'm thinking of dating a dealer at my favorite casino. She's made it clear that she's interested but I'm a little apprehensive because of the motto that was rammed down my throat from the previous paragraph. I play poker part time and need the money, so I look at this almost like the co-worker rule already stated. Sure there are other casinos in the area, but I hate the thought of one day no-longer feeling comfortable going to the casino where she works(like I said, it's my favorite).
So, do you think it's a potential mistake to date dealers from the casino you frequent most often?
-Randy
There is an old saying "don't get your meat where you get your bread" words to live by. (that one for nocaps scott)
Actually I met my wife of 25 years at the office.
Hey, she ain't a co-worker. If things don't work out you can always be "friends" like Jerry and Elaine.
Of course men define female friends as women they have not done "yet".
Hope you do the right thing.
I dated a girl I worked with once. I heard the same stories you are hearing. In my case ,I found the girl of my dreams. We have been married for many years. I'm sure glad I didn't listen to all those helpful people back then.
Whatever you decide, I hope it works out for you.
Howard
You are way too analytical about it for it to work anyway. Dating someone used to mean you had a strong attraction for that person. Sounds to me you're looking at this dealer the way I look at the Bellagio buffet...should i have steak or go over here and have pasta. Do her a favor and don't eat.
I've dated ladies I've worked with before. The best thing about it is being able to go to work and get a "Monica Lewinsky". Ooh, maybe Bill C. should answer this quetion.
I wonder how that would work at the poker table. You could drop a few chips and she could "go down" under the table and retrieve them for you. Yeah, yeah that's the ticket.
Vince.
Vince,
Sounds like you're a customer. It's mind-boggling to think that their are still men out there that have to pay for it.
desire,
Doesn't take much to boggle your mind now does it. Some men have it and others pay. I'm an "other". Is that a problem? It's not my fault, you know. If women would give of themselves, freely, as I do, I would'nt have to pay and pay and pay... Such is life.
Vince
The problem with dating dealers is they always bring the job home with them. The last one I went out with kept asking if I was all-in.
To which you responded, "Unfortunately for you, yes."
That's my boy, 3 Bet. Please submit this great line to Card Player or PD.
vince.
You are a customer. Therefore, the dealer and you are not co workers.
Date whomever you want if she also really wants to date you. All the other stuff is just so much BS in my opinion.
I don't know of a single dealer that would date the majority of poker players anyway. I mean if I want a smelly, nasty-looking disheveled guy that grumbles through every hand he loses...oh wait..i DO want that..them lucky dealers!
Did you just miss the point?--it is not a group you may be dating but an individual. This is why I say all the BS about non-dating in the workplace is just that, regardless of whether the individual is in a group of players, dealers or rocket scientists.
Anyone who would be willing to date the majority of people in any group has an entirely different perspective than I.
I would be willing to date the majority of the women who work at Hooters. Does that make me a bad person?
Darth Vader personified.
Brett, Not a bad person, per se...a broker person definitely.
You do realize you are salivating over what are most probably saline bags of fluid surgically inserted into the bodies of these women, correct?
Yes, Scott,
Shakespeare did write it, but he wrote "soul" not "sole." It's from Hamlet, spoken by Polonius, before he gives one of his characteristic long-winded speeches.
John
John,
You're probably the only guy on the forum that would appreciate this bit of pedanticity (I think I made that one up).
Well, it really isn't "small caps" scott. It's lower case scott. If it were small caps scott his name would look like this: "SMALL CAPS SCOTT" except the letters would probaly be in 6pt instead of 10pt.
SammyB
SammyB,
You've made a great "point." Of course, I don't have the right to change Scott's handle.
John
John and SammyB,
I think I might have been the first to call him "small caps scott". Now I see the error of my ways. From now on he is either "lower case scott" or "no caps scott".
Please vote on this important issue. Who cares about Gore or Bush.
Regards,
Rick
yeah, i think you were the first to use the prefix "small caps." i have always just written "scott" in lower case letters. however, i think no caps scott is better than lower case scott.
scott
Or it would look like this: "Small Caps Scott" with only the caps in 6 point. It is unclear whether the "small" refers the caps only, or whether the "small caps" refers to all letters.
damn. i should have caught that. it's the scene where polonius tells cladius and gertrude about hamlet and ophelia's relationship, right? where he shows them the love letter.
scott
I just noticed that the Boise,ID Borders is now carrying your books. Congratulations!
CV
Yep. They've arrived.
Chris,
What you have to do after you buy a dozen copies for yourself and friends is to turn the book so the front cover faces out. Also move it up to eye level if possible. This of course helps sales
I hear John Feeney does this personally in every bookstore he enters in Southern California. So instead of having a book signing tour, he is on a book turning tour.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. Latest stats of the Feeney book:
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 43,482 (and climbing)
Heh, I actually thought I'd turn my book at my local Borders, but their gambling section just had all the books wedged in tightly. I couldn't do it. But I'll watch for the day they put a little time into the display, and make the appropritate "adjustments". ;)
BTW, we can probably make that sales rank stat more impressive by writing it as 43,482/2,000,000. :^)
And with the thread graced by PV, *now* we have arrived!
John should regularly take half the copies from the gambling section and bring them, stealthily (with cap and dark glasses), to the magazine section, preferably where Time and Newsweek are located. There is probably 20 times more traffic there. Mason should help too. If he doesn't, then he is a miserable vomitous mass of a publisher.
PV:
I'm way ahead of you. What I do is look for endcaps. These are book displays located at the end of a bookshelf that feature some publishers books. What most people don't know is that publishers actually purchase these endcaps form the book store chain and they can be very expensive. Anyway, when no one is looking, I take an end cap book out and put John Feeney's book in its place.
I ordered two books from conjelco 9 days ago and no one seems to have an answer where they might be.. so i decided to order the remaining seven books from a distributor here in ontario, booksforgamblers.com.I had no idea of the excellent prices they offered till I went to thier site...Here`s the ace kicker I got my order in two days..... So any of you canadians just be aware that there is an excellent distributor right here in ontario with the best titles around....sklansky, malmuth, feeney, etc...
I am sure this is an issue that many of you, espescially those in the 20-30 year old range, have dealt with. I play a lot of poker and have been a winning player in home games for years and have done pretty well in my first few ventures into the casino. My problem is that the negative perception that comes with being the "family gambler" seems to follow me wherever I go. My mom doesn't seem to understand that poker is a game of skill that can be beaten, as she equates all serious gambling to being dangerous and indicitive of a problem. I am 21 and in college now, so I know that I can make my own decisions. That being said, my relationship with my parents is important to me and I think going to casinos any more than periodically could seriously strain it. I only bring money to the casino that I win from poker anyway (so there is little real risk). Who else has dealt with this problem? How can you show your family that poker is different than other forms of gambling or should u just not even try? I don't want to be guilt tripped every time I play poker! All advice and experiences appreciated in advance
Jeff
Dear Jeff, Moms are never wrong..therefore...moms are always right..therefore..listen to your mom..heh
But what about that Robert Bly guy who they always show on PBS? doesn't he say that boys must break free of their mamas' influence and control?
This is the main thing that has kept me from trying to be a "poker pro" or whatever you want to call it. I have been making plenty of money from poker but there are just so many things that make me feel weird about it. I feel almost like a drug dealer at times, having rolls of bills around the house and all. Having to explain how I'm paying for a television or whatever in cash and having to put that much cash in the bank all the time is weird too. When people see I have a nice car and a decent house and all and say that I'm fortunate to have such a nice job to be able to afford all these things, when I know I couldn't possibly do it without poker, how do I explain that?
Even worse, try explaining why you like to spend so much time gambling to a potential girlfriend, or worse yet, her parents. Good luck. I have yet to be successful in this endeavor.
On the other hand, I like all the things that poker has brought me, besides that enjoyment I still get from playing poker. But sometimes I wonder if it's worth it.
Overall, very nice post. I can relate very much to what you're feeling. I'm only 23 so I think we're coming from a common ground here.
Just explain that it is an intellectually challenging game. Does your family like games? Teach them to play for toothpicks. Once they get hooked, beat them a few times. Then how are they going to argue that it isn't after all a game of skill, at which you can rightfully win money? Oh I know--they will tell you you were just lucky. :-)
There is always going to be a stigma with going to casino's or cardrooms. You will probably never able to get away from it. If your parents are dead set against gambling and you truly want to maintain a close relationship, you probably only have a couple of choices. Don't go to cardrooms or don't involve them with that aspect of your life.
"I am 21 and in college now, so I know that I can make my own decisions". Prove it Mama's boy!!! Drop out of school, leave home, and live the glorious non-ass kissing poker life style. Being the insecure, overly emotionally dependent Mama's boy that you are, you're probably not gonna make it past the 25th session. You'll be crying and begging your Mom to give you your room back within a week. If you were truly emotionally independent and secure about your ability to make your own decisions, you wouldn't be making this sorry little "please give me a shoulder to cry on" post of yours. You would instead have confidently walked up to your mother and told her assertively (but nicely) what you believe deep in your heart and what values you are willing to stand for. But no, you come over to two plus two and cry like a sorry little baby. Son, I see the word "9 to 5 ass kisser" written all over face clear as day light. Grow up, you miserable vomitous mass of imaturity!!!
Once again, Poker Veteran comes through with a thoughtful, articulate analysis. Dont listen to this guy, he is the biggest A**hole that posts on 2+2. Try to educate your parents about poker, people are usually scared or weary about something they dont know about or understand. Poker, like any job, has its pro's and con's. You will learn more about this aspect of the game as you get more experience. I do think you should give it a shot-you are only young once.
Remember that most people who gamble are losers, and your parents probably have known many people who have lost their shirts by gambling in vain. If they care about you they should be concerned.
Even if you can convince your parents you can win, they won't be able to tell people what a great "Gambler" you are without having people look at them funny. This may be another reason that they may want you to quit gambling.
It maybe best to not talk to them about it unless they are concerned that you will go broke like all the others. Then it may be time to start educating them on Probability and Expected Value.
By the way, nobody in my family is interested in my Poker wins, and the guys I play poker with are still in denial that I play better. I come here to get satisfaction.
CV
You know, I like your response a whole lot better than mine. Very well said.
I've had the same issue with friends, family and my girlfriend. As Chris suggested, I bolstered my "argument" by demonstrating basic probability and EV, and also showing them how the house edge works, and how in poker (aside from the rake) the house has no advantage.
In addition, as time has gone on, (at least with my girlfriend) I have shown: that I am responsible with my money I don't "gamble" (i.e., roulette, etc.) That poker is the only hobby I can think of where one can actually make $$ rather than spend $$ That I enjoy the intellectual stimulation it brings
As another poster mentioned, your folks probably know people who have lost much due to gambling. That is, in all liklihood, where their perception is coming from. My grandfather was a compulsive gambler. My girlfriend has since admitted that she tends to get lushed while she plays (chase losses, etc.). My father has admitted the same. Their concern, then, comes from their own projection.
Maybe, after thoughtful and educational discussion on the differences between poker and other forms of gambling, your friends and family will at least understand that there is a difference. Maybe they won't. At least give it a try, and see what happens. If they do not understand, AND continuing to play cards will strain your relationships to the breaking point, then maybe it is time to hang it up - at least for a while. A game is not worth losing a relationship over. OTOH, I think they have a responsibility to listen to what you have to say in an open fashion, and to at least take your passion for the game into account - and to see it as your hobby. Just like you'd never tell dad to quit making bird houses because you think it's dopey, they should not threaten you with the end of a relationship because you play cards....
Good luck, Tim
Jeff,
Addict
1 : to devote or surrender (oneself) to something habitually or obsessively
Sign a paper stating that if you become addicted to gambling you will stop and seek treatment if necessary.
If that doesn't work shoot the whole lot of them and we'll be able to read about you in the paper and see your damn face on the news!!!!!!!!!!hehehehehehehe
ukw
Had Bush picked Penn. Gov. Ridge as his VP, and/or if his brother Jeb(Fla. Gov.) had any 'pull' whatsoever, this election would long be over.
The absentee ballots may help Dub groan over the line, but regardless, Jeb shouldn't even bother running for re-election in '02, let alone ever entertain any notions of the Senate or Presidency.
BTW I think Dub is an idjit, but compared to the Maoist campaign that Gore's been running(and apparently has come to really believe in), it ain't much of a choice IMO.
OK, troll placed, I'm outa this here. :)
If, people who work, vote; The Good Bush has to wait.
Barbara Bush said at the end of the republican presidency, "He has not driven for eight years. I am going to drive."
While we're on the subject, someone down the pub last night said that George W Bush has never left the United States. Ever. Is this true, and if so does it worry you as much as it does me ?
Andy.
What, the Birmingham country club during the Vietnam war doesn't count??
I'd never heard that one. Concern me? Yes, but not as much as Gore never having worked in the private sector.
I think you should stick to poker since you know nothing about politics.
You don't think Ridge on the ticket would've easily delivered PA to Dub and swung a lot of pro-choice independents and moderate Dems who hate Clinton personally?
BTW could I pick the winner it would be Harry Browne.
What's hurting Bush in Florida are his ideas regarding Social Security. Social Security is a political sacred cow that few Republicans or Democrats will ever talk about changing much during a campaign. I have listened to some very interesting Senate debates about Social Security in the past and IMO both parties come down basically the same on this issue. The senior citizens in Florida are scared to death that they will lose their stipend if Bush wins. If Bush wasn't advocating the changes he is now IMO he would be way ahead in Florida.
I am from PA, and Ridge is a dope! Chenney is OK. Whitman could have been worse.
I always thought that Ridge was popular in PA and could've easily delivered it had he been on the ticket.
I think Whitman would've swung a lot of female voters to Dub.
Both Ridge and Whitman are Repubs in Demo states; kinda hard to get elected.
Nothing wrong with Cheney from a competency standpoint(he's certainly more competent than Dub).
My off shore sportsbook have Bush-250 Gore +210 what is a good bet? have until midnight pacific time.
ronzoni,
It's midnight (sorry) but my guess right now is that Gore will win in a close race. A big factor will be that the Nader voters (by the polls about 4% of the electorate) will back down and vote for Gore since he would be their second choice in most cases and they now realize the race is very close.
This is too bad because I think the whole DUI thing is a cheap shot.
Anyway, I will state that Nader gets less than 2% of the vote. Egg on my face if I'm wrong.
Regards,
Rick
After I read " USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup tracking poll projects Bush defeating Gore 48%-46%." I bet Bush to win $100,may be I'm a sucker.
The thing is, the popular vote doesn't count, the electoral college vote does. If Gore wins it will almost certainly be with enough electoral votes but with fewer popular votes.
Good luck! I hope you (and America) win the bet.
Rick,
I don't under understand your comment. How is publicizing a fact of behavior a cheap shot? Remember, The Shrub tried to make character a big part of his campaign; his wasn't as shiny as he wanted to portray.
Now, I'm a firm advocate of the stone throwing/glass house theory. So, you definitely won't see me pitching any rocks. The Shrub should have told the country about this young (age 30 ?!) indiscretion a long time ago; it would then be a big zero.
OBTW, I always read your posts; they (this one excepted) are always informative and insightful. Guess we just disagree on this issue. And I hope you're right about the election!!
Regards,
Paul T.
Paul,
I'll admit it is possible that I have some facts wrong so if anyone out there wants to correct me it would be appreciated. I just haven't had time to be the newshound I used to be due to personal commitments. But I can type fast ;-).
Regarding Bush’s DUI per my understanding:
1) In 1976 DUI was not taken as seriously as it is today. This was 24 years ago and there is little doubt that Bush has lived a very clean life regarding lifestyle for at least the last 14 years.
2) Bush was stopped for driving too slowly, which is considered suspicious - especially late at night although I'm not sure was the case here (that it was late at night). He was not driving recklessly.
3) His blood alcohol level was .10 or so. Note that in those days many states had a blood alcohol level limit of .12. Anyone who has had a few beers on an empty stomach would easily go near or over this limit.
4) The record of the DUI was expunged which was not uncommon for first offenses in those days. Apparently an ex-judge/Democrat/failed politician leaked this to a reporter. This is a major breach of ethics.
5) If the record was expunged and the offense was minor, Bush was not really lying when a reporter asked him if he ever committed a crime (or whatever he was actually asked).
5.5) Given it was expunged and considered a minor incident (at the time), there was no reason to reveal it.
6) I believe it is wrong to apply today’s standards retroactively to a time where the standards of behavior were different. If he had been caught doing this in recent years (since MADD and other organizations have had such a successful campaign reducing DUI fatalities), I would view it far more seriously.
7) Some have used the logic that if he was caught once, he surely must have driven drunk far more often. That may be so but unless one was a teetotaler or close to one, it is very likely that many who drank and drove during this era probably drove with a blood alcohol level of .1O or greater on several occasions. And this would include those that have never been caught.
8) This nation has a history of forgiving one mistake early in a life. Given this, this should be a non-issue.
9) Leaking it in the last week of the campaign is a cheap shot. Whether this was done by the malice of an individual or with the encouragement of higher authority it is still a cheap shot.
10) While we all sweat out Florida, let me finish with this. Ted Kennedy remains a beloved icon to liberals. I have been to Chappaquiddick and stood on the narrow one lane bridge over the inlet leading to the remote beach were in 1969 Mary Jo Kopechne lost her life in the company of a drunk Senator Ted Kennedy. There is no way Kennedy accidentally turned the wrong way. There is essentially only one main road on the Island (or at least there was when I was last in Edgartown in 1988), which was connected to the estate where Kennedy was attending a party. When he left the party (where he was seen drinking heavily) he could turn to the tiny ferry leading back to Edgartown or he could turn to the beach. It doesn’t take much imagination to realize that Kennedy’s intention was to find a remote spot for a little casual sex with an adoring secretary.
Here is a link to a Mapquest map of the Island. The fatality occurred at the extreme southeast corner of the Island at the end of the road leading over the inlet to the beach.
Link to Map of the Site Of Drowning Of Mary Jo Kopechne While In the Company of Senator Ted Kennedy
On my first visit in 1980 deeply inscribed in one of the 10” by 10” wood railings were the words: “KENNEDY IS A LIAR AND SO IS CHAPPAQUIDDICK”. On the sign in front of the tiny bridge were the words “WARNING – BRIDGE UNSAFE”. In graffiti on the sign someone had wrote in red TED. (Note: I have pictures).
If memory serves me, Kennedy was a serious contender for the Democratic Presidential Nomination in 1972, 1976 and 1980 and 1984.
BTW, while I was looking up the spelling of Mary Jo’s last name using Google, I came across the following site. Have fun.
Link to the Senator Ted Kennedy/Chappaquiddick Web Site
11) I guess item 10) is a cheap shot. Now tell me Bush’s 24 year old arrest is a big deal.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
Whoa, baby! I obviously hit a sensitive nerve, or you are one hell of a quick researcher. Three "expunge"(s) in one post has to be a record. Well done.
The Kennedy record is irrelevant to the question at hand; you know better. I didn't expect a bad beat story from you. ;o)
As you may have guessed, I am anything but unbiased -- I think Dubya is nothing more than a clueless cheerleader. That said, I still maintain that a guy who touts his character as one reason to vote for him would have been better served disclosing this (old) incident. That's it.
Paul T.
Paul,
I'm not a big fan of Bush. I just like Gore less and tend to favor smaller government (or to be precise, with Bush it will be less humongous government).
My observation was that Bush did not make character that big an issue as Gore is very clean in his personal life. He did make an issue of Gore's disingenuousness on the issues (e.g., his many reversals to suit the political wind). Bush has always been more consistent here.
I only thought of the contrast with Kennedy at the very end (I lived in Rhode Island most of my life). Putting in the link to the "Kopechne/Kennedy" web site just took a minute. It turns out it is a long and interesting read.
Regards,
Rick
My UK internet bookie has Bush at 5/8 and algor at 5/4.
UK bookies are the best informed in the world so I think you may have a good bet since they put bush a fav.
Over the years we hear of people who can look at a page in the phone book for a few minutes and then you can quiz them about names and numbers.
Have any of you ever personally met anyone who can do this?
I’m not talking about memorizing a deck of cards by memory tricks.
Not that I know of.
As far as other types of incredible mental feats, I believe either Aaron Nimzovich or Miguel Najdorf holds the record for simultaneous blindfold chess games--45 boards at once without "seeing" a single game except in his mind's eye.
Mozart might have been able to hear an entire symphony once and recall it perfectly in its entirety.
I had one before the Portugese cops lumped me in Sep of '85. Now I am a mere shadow of my former self.
Don't visit countries where the recruit cops from the hills and farms.
Thanks. Now we know the source of your tortured grammar. Sorry for your loss. ;>)
My grandmother could almost do this. Not with a phone book, but with something that had a context and made sense, like a gardening book.
She could see in her mind's eye the page. While she couldn't literally read it in her head, she remembered it awfully well. If she needed to she could look it up lightning fast (she could almost turn straight to the page she needed - I don't think she ever used an index in her life).
I've played around with alot of the "memory tricks" out there. It's definitely possible to pull the phone book page trick (and similar stunts) without a photographic memory.
David
Nicola Tesla could run an entire experiment inside his head that was as accurate as a real one.
My current Director has a photographic memory. He remembers fine details from scientific jourals and can tell you where the references are from. He is not like Rainman, but he only has to see something once if it is in his area of expertise. The only person whomI know who has that trait. As he gets older he is loosing it a bit.
I think that it... uh.. what was the question? =)
I don't know of anyone, but I was once told I had a "photogenic" memory.
John
I have more of a pornographic memory. I never seem to forget anything in this field.
;^)
CV
If that isn't a case for a Bush vote, I don't know what is. Algore is absolutley reptilian.
God that is scary!!!! Hopefully we are only a few hours from being able to celebrate a Bush victory. Then we wont have to see much more of this creep. If for some reason that clown wins though it will be a very dark day for America. Later, Kris
Goat - F&%# politics. the darkness descended the day that Metallica released a CD called "Garage Inc." on this hunk of junk they do a cover of a lame ass song by bob seeger. The name of the CD was just cruel irony. I now know how my folks must feel when they hear that American Pie song about the day the music died. As a young lad I fed myself a steady diet of Misfits and Metallica. Now I must bang my head in frustration instead of celebration when these sell-out wusses get their songs on the radio. I can't believe james hetfield had the nerve to sue Napster. his worthless whiny music isn't worth the time it takes to download. I wouldn't be surprised if he starts going to dinner parties with Elton John. OK, OK I've ranted enough.
I agree politics are pretty shitty, but Gore is about 99% (maybe 99.9%) shitty wheras Bush is probably only 30% shitty (rough estimate). I just want to see the less crooked of the two get into office. Regarding Metallica- I never cared for them though they do have some talent at selling records (big whup, who the fuck cares?). Misfits- They are one of the greatest bands ever! Man I love the Misfits. Too bad the new Misfits (I think there are only two members from when they were around in the 70's) released a record on Geffen. I hate that Geffen fucker. Their 1999 release was on a small label though. Good stuff but it doesn't compare to the classics of the old misfits. Later.
"a drunk driving lunatic incapable of diction above the fifth-grade level is leading in the polls." Taken from The (University of) Michigan Daily. Oh yeah, let's hear it for The Shrub.......
So you'd rather have a socialist - not me.
Also, where is the best poker in Tunica?
Thank you,
Jim.
Memphis
The best poker in Tunica is at the Horseshoe where they spread up to $20-$40 hold-em every day. Sometimes on the weekends they spread pot limit hold-em and Omaha with $5 and $10 blinds. The nearest airport is in Memphis Tennessee which is about 30 miles north.
Jim,
In a post a couple weeks ago, you said the Tunica 20-40 was:
"the best game in the country right now".
Thats a pretty strong statement. Hope you are right, because I'm headed there this weekend.
Abe
I've played all over the country this summer (including the Tunica 20-40 several times), and the best mid-limit game in the country right now is the 15-30 game in El Paso, TX. The next best would be the 20-40 1/2 kill game at Casino Arizona ... and then the Tunica 20-40. However, the one game I've not played in is the 30-60 at Bellagio, and from the posts I read, it appears to be one of the softest.
http://www.theonion.com/onion3640/counterpoint_bears.html
Bear Alert
The Colorado State Department of Fish and Wildlife is advising hikers, hunters, fishermen, and golfers to take extra precautions and be on the alert for bears while in the Dillon, Breckenridge, and Keystone area.
They advise people to wear noise-producing devices such as little bells on their clothing to alert but not startle the bears unexpectedly.
They also advise you to carry pepper spray in case of an encounter with a bear. It is also a good idea to watch for signs of bear activity.
People should be able to recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear droppings.
Black bear droppings are smaller and contain berries and possibly squirrel fur.
Grizzly bear droppings have bells in them and smell like pepper spray.
I'd be more afraid of a Giant Q-Tip coming after me with more guns than most militia have, than a Grizzly hurting me.
ukw
Y’all know me, still the same old G, but I been low key, hated on by most these niggas with no cheese, no deals , and no g’s, no wheels and no keys. Nowadays everybody wanna talk like they got something to say, but nothing comes out when they move their lips, just a buncha gibberish. Punks thinking just cause I be getting my art history on and my orgo on that they in the clear, that all is forgiven. That’s bullshit. This ain’t the first time goat and M ran off, shoulda stood their shit then. Hate to think of what they’re getting if I catch em slippin, it won’t be an ass whoopin, I can tell you that. I ain’t here to start shit, I just be keeping it real dawg. One love
Maniac
and don't think you're off the hook either Uston. you know who's gonna find you? some old man fishin
You call that music, that ain’t music. Now punk, that’s music. You can tell it’s good by how loud they scream. the volume more then makes up for the fact that the singing/lyrics/skill might not be the best. I’d like to see Dr. Eminem or whatever scream like that. Now look at some of the all time great punk bands and compare then to rap, like Black flag, and there greatest hits……but I’ll come back to that later. You think you’re better then me? You think you know what racism is? I might be black. I could be white. I could be both, like my hero Michael Jackson. Enough of this chit chat though, I got me a date at Chucky cheese’s.
NOTGoat
Hey, look at me, I have an opinion on everything quack quack quack. It’s not that I think the polish people are bad as an ethnicity, but do they have to quack quack quack use so much profanity. Just cause the folded like a beach chair to Stalin during WWI don’t mean that gotta be all uppity about it. And I’d be perfectly fine with their “so-called” ebonix if there weren’t so much violence. Can’t we all just get quack quack quack?
Quack
Maybe you should put a ban on polish in the posting guidelines. Profanity is one thing, but this ghetto polish looks really bad
NOTGoat
That was a joke. See, I’m for America, not for censorship, just like George Bush. George bush knows what’s funny, he’s the kind of guy who’d appreciate a good joke like this. That’s what we need in the white house, not some hoity-toity intellectual but someone related to someone who was once president. Bring back the monarchy!
NOTGoat
Yo NOTGoat, what’s this all about? Comin up in here and being all about being England’s bitch. Maybe you like bendin over some some brit wit bad teeth and big ears, but over in philly we be keeping it real. If King george comes over and trys to push my ass around, he’s gonna get a few caps bust in his ass. one
Maniac
Countries have bended other countries over for centuries, so if King George came over and started pushing us around we wouldn’t have any reason to be upset, since it’s all happened before. Just like black people have no reason to get angry at white people because people have been enslaved throughout history. As for classical music, I’m a big fan of Picasso
NOTM
Stop lyin
I don't lie.
One.
Ran off? Do you mean like running away (scared) or "running off my mouth"? Which is it? I shouldn't have even acknowleged your one man posting crusade but oh well you are probably desperate for the attention.
Cool. I love fishing. Not fly fishing, though. Never tried that. Maybe we could kick it in Montana with Zee-A River Runs Through It style, G.
James
And, yes, I roll 20 deep when I fish, too.
I'm not for censorship. I just happen to think Ebonix sounds dumb. So does Brooklynese for that matter, and so does Hillbilly. Cajun and Redneck sound stupid, and so did Archie Bunker. A "Boston accent" is even ridiculous.
How anyone can get woids out of words, burl out of boil, yo out of you, and cah out of car is beyond me. The letters are clear, and I learned phonics in first and second grade. I thought almost everyone learned how letters combine to form simple sounds and words.
I also am not for censorship of violent language or censorship of profanity. I think anyone ought to be allowed to swear in a casino. I just think using a lot of profanity sounds low-class. However, I am all for your right to use it. I also think language suggestive of violence at every turn probably originated from nitwits who thought they were being macho. Overly violent language sounds low-class and stupid.
If Rap actually has some good music that isn't filled with low-grade dumb objectionable lyrics, and if it has some music that isn't unbelievably boring and repetitive, then why don't they play that from the car windows that pass by on occasion, or on the stations I pass when flipping the car radio? Most of what I hear from car windows is an aggressive edge, repeated over and over ad infinitum. Where's the intellectual interest in that? By the way, this applies to most Rock too (although a few Rock songs are fairly complex). Most of modern music has fallen to appeal to the lowest common denominator in today's commercialized world. Pulp novels fill the stores. Trash TV is the norm when you can flip 100 channels and consider yourself lucky to find one show you'd really like to watch. "There's nothin on..."
You could take every Rock song ever written and it wouldn't add up to one great symphony by Mozart (in terms of complexity and architecture). The intellectual difference in the music is something on the order of the difference between a great work of literature and a children's tale. A typical Rap song from the radio might fall in as a nursery ryhme (with a harsh edge). I am just talking about the level of art and intellectual complexity in the music itself (not lyrics) here. It is fine to like simple things. I like many simple songs of many genres. However in terms of what there really is in the art it is not even close. We are comparing finger-painting to Van Gogh or Picasso. From my limited exposure to Rap it strikes me as even simpler in musical construction than Rock. So when you add in the violence, etc. I can't see very much to recommend it. Doubtless I am missing a few very talented Rappers in my assessment. There are always great though rare talents to be found anywhere. However there is not one artist today who has composed anything even approaching the greatness of the works of Bach, Beethoven or Mozart.
You can listen to most Rock or Pop or Rap songs and pretty quickly understand most of the musical relationships contained therein. Try that with Mozart's Symphony No. 35 in D Major or No. 40 in G Minor (first version). Try that with Bach's Fugues or the Brandenburg concertos. Tell me you can visualize the relationships in even that ever-popular Betthoven's 5th Symphony. You can hear the greatness, but it is another thing to really understand what is going on.
It is thought that in Mozart's lifetime only Haydn could fully understand his works.
If you just want music that is "EZ-Listening" even if it is Rap, Punk or Rock that's OK. I like it too sometimes. I just think it is too bad that in general the lower the art, the more it appeals to the masses. And unfortunately my impression from hearing a bit of Rap here and there just doesn't impress me at all. If I say it sounds dumb I am not insulting you. I just have low tolerance for soap operas, bad movies, most prime-time TV car chase gun shows, and much of the music on the radio.
Whatever happened to the Renaissance anyway? Now it seems most people like ball games better than literature, anything better than math, and simple rhymes or "free verse" more than great poetry. In ages past the arts were more important and even the commoners aspired and loved great art. I believe it is sad that art has declined so much in the modern world, although as mentioned before there will always be exceptional talents to be found here and there. Possibly there are a few great talents in Rap as well, although I think it is sad that their efforts are all taking place in an art form that is far more limited than Classical. I also think it is sad that their art may be stained by unnecessary and frequent allusions to violence and profanity.
Too bad renaissance quality stuff doesn't really exist anymore but there are a few exceptions. Surprisingly there is some black metal, and one death metal band that actually produce some highly complex stuff comparable to classical music. Much of it being based on Classical music of mideival europe and up to music of the 18th century. An example is a band called Dissection- they are highly influenced by post-renaissance classical music. It is almost to the point where they are ripping off ideas of greats such as Motzart, Bach etc... I guess you could even make an argument that that in itself isn't so good simply because they are unoriginal in coming up with a foundation for their dark musical art. In regards to profanity, I think censoring it is silly. Afterall they are just words. What I find offensive is when they are used to promote racism and violence as is often found in rap. This isn't just heresay from me either, I have friends who listen to that garbage and I used to be somebody who only listened to rap (hard to believe and embarrasing to admit but it is true). I am not saying punk is a perfect music either but it is more varied in terms of some being easy listening, some being extremely complex, some political some just about random shit in everyday life etc... But one thing that is never promoted is violence or racism. These things are just too counterproductive for a society in general. There are several punkers who are highly educated and I find it amazing that people pass judgement and try to say they are all just a bunch of simpletons who produce simple music. A couple examples would be Milo from the descendants, he is a microbiologist, The members of bad religion are all college graduates with one of them an M.D. and one or two others (I forget, I am not the biggest BR fan) are attorneys, Fat Mike from NOFX is highly educated and you can tell this from his lyrics (I don't know what is formal education is comprised of though). I wonder how many rappers evr made it past high school, or even made it through high school for that matter.
Uhh, err, wait a minute.
Did anyone else see how all but two of MSN.COM's political & social commentary staff voted for either Gore or Nader?
Hey, Rounder! Were do I send my check for the Jeb '08 campaign? :)
C'mon, WV, AR, etc..
.
Bill,
You might be interested in my post below regarding Bush's DUI arrest.
Regards,
Rick
Thanks for the links.
The man's a drunken, murderering rapist. One of the two or three foulest hypocrites in the history of American politics.
His race-baiting/pandering and class warfare(from behind the electrified platinum gates of Hyannisport) are Pol Pot-ish and Hitleresque.
Utter maggoty scum; far worse than Clinton(Bill not Hillary), and in some ways even more so than LBJ(Now there's a thought to keep you up late at night....).
Bill,
I guess I was wrong that Gore would win in a close one :-).
Anyway, I'm no fan of Ted Kennedy but when you wrote that he was "Pol Pot-ish and Hitleresque" I think you may be exagerating just a little.
Regards,
Rick
What if TK had been born into a similar family/circumstances in a country with no tradition of democracy, like Cambodia, or a country that was economically and politically bankrupt, like Germany in the period of 1880-1925(not a lot of democracy there, either)?
Yes, I realize that Hitler was born in Austria...
Ted Kennedy would be too drunk to do much damage. Hitler was a health nut. I don't know much about the personal habits of Pol Pot.
Regards,
Rick
Erah Rick: Erah eye am erah not a drunk. Erah erah is that a fish in my pocket. When erah eye erah run my boat aground erah, eye give erah the coast guard a drink, erah. Eye am a good man.
Erah, I'll do Dubya erah like eye did that bitch in Chappequitick....
Vote Teddy erah in '04--- People of erah America, my campaign promise to you, erah, is a Broad and erah a Bottle on Every Table! In the words erah of my campaign manager erah LL Cool J -"Life aint nothing, erah erah, but bitches and money"
It's been awhile but I use to know a little something about the way the statistical samples are done that are used to project states like Florida since I did work for the Census Bureau doing statistical sample design. One of the essentials which keeps the variance to a minimum is to give each sample unit the same weight. In more normal English, each person selected for the sample is suppose to represent the same number of people as any other person in the sample.
What I understand to have happened is that in the Florida Pan Handle where the polls closed an hour later, the voter turn out was significantly higher than expected. Thus the sample here was not given the expected weight and the weight had to be moved up. This probably produced a non-self weighting effect which increased the variance and may the projections less accurate. I'm sure this over simplifies the modeling problems, but I suspect that this has something to do with the miscall in Florida.
Florida is the only thing that matters now. Pity, because it looks like Nader'll tip Oregon and Wisconsin to W. Goddamn New Mexico.....
I predict that as of tomorrow morning Gore will have <10K lead, but the absentees will give it to W later this week. Final score, 289-249.
WOW. Now this is what sweating's all about....
If Bush woulda won NM, along with Oregon and Wisconsin, ang Gore won FL and Iowa, the race would've ended 269-269.
But Bush would've handily won the vote of state congressional delegations(NOT individual congressman); i.e. Utah cancels Cali, Wyo cancels NY, etc.
FWIW
He's far, far from perfect, but there was simply no choice this year.
Oh, and take that mental patient Steisand with you.
...don't forget Alec Baldwin and his wife what's her name.
Mrs. Alec Baldwin is that drunken skag, Kim Basinger, who is testimony to the miracles that can be performed by Hollywood makeup artists, hairdressers, lighting riggers, editors, cameramen, and body doubles.
Is 2+2 a subsidiary of yahoo? This place is crawling with them!..
Dubya's gonna be prez. I know he's a no-brainer over Gore, but, DUB?? President??
I sure hope Cheney and Colin Powell play significant roles in the new administration(Powell not domestically, of course).
Ventura '04.
In fact, Ventura04(tm) is henceforth my new posting handle.
Lord help us all.
nt
I understand that many, many people find Gore's positions on guns, abortion, his proposed expansion of the federal government, etc. unpalatable. I also understand that for many people neither Nader nor Buchanan seemed to be a favorable alternative.
But, even with all this, it still astounds me that otherwise intelligent, critically thinking people could possibly bring themselves to vote for "W", or could take any comfort whatsoever in the prospect of his impending presidency.
... I voted for Kodos.
Andy.
With 99% of Florida's >5.7KK votes counted, W leads Gore by 9,163. Nader has over 94K. Shame he didn't get the 5%, although it's probably a good sign of the country's overall mindset.
Automatic recount under Florida law, as the margin of victory is less than .1%. Could take until 12/18 to be officially certified.
Maybe Janet Reno will send the troops in to seize the ballot boxes...
I am very happy for Nader and his followers. He and they will get what they deserve, namely an enviromnemt so full of Big Oil and relaxation of the environmental laws that we will all choke. Cars will be less safe than ever.
Nader's narcissistic Don Quoxite attitude cost Gore and sensible Americans the victory. Similar to Perot's doushing of Dole in 1992, Nader has done the same to Gore. I suppose turnabout is fair play.
I will do very well under Bush, economically, but that is only a narrow view. For those who thought King Ron was the greatest, realize this -- that under the Clinton money people the US economy grew better, the stock mkt rose 154%, std of living increased. jobs increased and the worker maintained his or her position. Under King Ron, the rich got richer and the rest of us took out loans to pay for our kid's education. I'm still paying, are you?
For those who believe Clinton's great economy was an inheritance from King Ron's 8 years, you are wrong. We had 4 years of Daddy Bush who sent the economy down the toilet in spite of King Ron (who did a pretty good job if your measure of success is purely $$$). Check the figures.
Good luck all you elderly and middle class workers who voted for GW. You better get the vaseline out, because it's gonn'a hurt if you don't. Better re-think those living wills now since your medical insurance will dissolve quicker than nutrasweet
Not to mention the draconian, ultra-conservative, religious right wing supreme court we can look forward to under dubya.
Who's the biggest "droconian, ultra-conservative, religious right wing supreme court" justice? Most liberals would say Scalia. He was approved by the Senate with an astonishing 98-0 vote. Clarance Thomas was approved by a Democratically controlled Senate, too.
My true choice for President was Ralph Nader. That being said, I voted for Gore. Why? Because I am pragmatic enough to realize that a vote for Nader was, in effect, a vote for Bush.
I firmly believe in everything Nader had to say..the deplorable choices shoved down our throats time and time again by the present two-party stranglehold that exists in this country. Until a third party become a viable threat to them, the Democrats and Republicans will keep the status-quo. Offering the american people weak candidates knowing there really isn't much we can do about it.
The last presidential candidate I actually felt good about casting a vote for was Jimmy Carter. Since then it has been a choice between who is the lesser dummy..who will do the least amount of harm...what repercussions will the candidate have on the Supreme Court and stacking it with either right-wing arch conservatives or left-wing liberals. After all, these Supreme Court Justices are life-time appointments that have a profound effect on each and every American.
In closing, I would like to say how embarrassing I feel it is for our country to be shown around the world as a country that can't even tally our ballots correctly in a presidential election.
Unbelievable. They'll be recounts and lawsuits until Inauguration Day.
1,813 gap out of 5,782,013 total as of 4:05 am EST, w/>20 absentee precincts unreported.
Oboy.....
I got no life, but I gotta go to bed.
Nader gets over 96K in FL; Gore wins national popular vote.
Badger predicted on RGP months ago that the electoral winner would lose the popular vote. He is God.
Rounder, you owe me an O'Doul's at the WPC in Reno. I TOLD YOU it was going to come down to the absentee ballots in FL.
That is amazing? Do you have a link to Badger's prediction? (Try using deja.com Power Search).
Regards,
Rick
Badger didn't actually predict this. He said if you could get 3 to 1 odds against a split, you should take it. Someone offered him 2 to 1 and he passed.
I would have laid the 2 to 1 and would have laid 7 to 1 that Bush would win the popular vote. These pollsters need to refine their science. It is mindboggling that Bush is going to end up with only 48% when he ewas polling 48-50% with more than 5% of the total undecided.
I know this may sound incredibly naive, but why will there be lawsuits? Who's going to do the suing, and who's going to be sued?
Gore has won the popular vote, and with the vote in Florida showing less than a 0.1% majority for Bush, I think it is obscene that our political machinery might allow this feeble minded buffon to become our president.
If he does become president it is clear that his administration with be a mockery. Ford thought he had it rough.
More evidence that we don't live in a democracy after all.
-SmoothB-
I'll say this slowly again. This country was never designed to be a democracy. It is a constitutional republic.
The founding fathers had a plan when they structured an electoral college. They didn't want unbridled majority rule, because they knew it would lead to a very factionalized government. And they were right. Just look at some of the European countries that have pure democracy where you have six or seven parties representing the people. Our system of two party rule has served us fairly well in comparison and the two-party system would break down without the electoral college.
That said, I would be screaming bad beat if I were Gore, too. But he has himself to blame as his strategy was to divide the nation and pit the rural "hicks" against the urban elite. I guess the hicks won this round (even in Arkansas and Tennessee).
But, I could be wrong and maybe SmoothB is a smarter political philospher than Madison, Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, et al. You might just be arrogant enough to think you are.
"You MIGHT just be arrogant enough to think you are."
Now 7 come 11 you know HE is!!!
ukw
Mud slinging again, eh? You started the insults prick.
IE
But, I could be wrong and maybe SmoothB is a smarter political philospher than Madison, Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, et al. You might just be arrogant enough to think you are.
First of all, over 200 years ago, it would have been impossible to have an election and be able to tabulate the results in one day. Think it's possible to get from NH to Washington DC in one day by horse and buggy? It ain't. So, the plan was to conduct the votes in the states, tally them, and on that basis choose electors who would go to a one-shot-deal election of the electoral college.
Another point. At the time when the constitution was being drafted, more than a few of the new 'states' would have been just fine and dandy with forming their own new nations. Remember that, just prior to that, they had been different colonies with WIDELY RANGING local laws. (Contrast Virginia VS Massachusetts criminal law.) I am stating an obvious fact when I say remind you that the framers of the constitution had to give a lot of rights to the states (ever heard the concept States Rights? There ya go.)
Most of the power that the states used to have has long evaporated. Now the federal gov't uses its fiduciary muscles to exercise far more power over the states and local gov'ts than they could have dreamed of 200 yrs ago. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING.
It's time to get rid of the electoral college. It serves no purpose now. It's an anachronism. And it may possibly reverse the mandate of the people in this election.
Let's get rid of it.
-SmoothB-
"Most of the power that the states used to have has long evaporated. Now the federal gov't uses its fiduciary muscles to exercise far more power over the states and local gov'ts than they could have dreamed of 200 yrs ago. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING."
Lets continue this progression.
States... local governments... neighborhoods... families... individuals.
Facist.
You have it backwards. We liberals do NOT want more gov't control over individual rights and personal freedom. The republicans, however, want to take a lot of your person rights and freedom away - as long as you're poor. If you're rich, you can afford 'cocaine' and you get a lessor sentence than the brutha who is poor and smokes 'crack' - his sentence will be much higher. Cocaine is more expensive than crack, but it is the EXACT SAME drug in a different form.
BAN on partial birth abortions, and trying to restrict abortion in general - REPUBLICAN
Opposed to the right of homosexuals to marry - REPUBLICANS
Want Miranda rights decision overturned - REPUBLICAN appointees of the supreme court
WANT TO BAN INTERNET GAMBLING - REPUBLICANS
Decisions that limit your Fourth Amendment Rights, given to you by the CONSTITUTION, (regarding search and seisure) by the supreme court - REPUBLICAN APPOINTEES
Ok now it's your turn. You tell me SPECIFICALLY, just as I have, how Democrats want to reduce personal rights and freedom. Give specific examples just as I have done, please.
-SmoothB-
I personally paid over $500,000 in city, state, federal, fica, and medicare taxes last year. If I don't pay this, I go to jail. If I refuse to go to jail, they shoot me. You call this freedom? Algore thinks I don't pay enough. All of that other shit is meaningless if you lay claim to 50% of my efforts.
Once again. Facist.
You really think that you won't have to pay your taxes under a republican administration?!?!?!?!?! What are you talking about?!?!?!?!?!?
Since you did NOT enumerate any ways in which the democrats want to limit your personal freedom, I assume you can't think of any. I win.
What does that make our score now, something like 5:0 advantage SmoothB?
-SmoothB-
Michael 7,
Do you really think all that other stuff is meaningless? If so, then what you appear to be saying is that you be willing to would trade away some of your rights for a lower tax rate.
*
M-
I would be willing to trade some rights for more money. Especially the ones that liberals are so fearful the boogeymen will attack.
Abortion- Don't care one bit. Burning the flag- Don't care one bit. Affirmative action- I think it needs to go anyway. Miranda warning- Don't care one bit. Gambling- already got my card room shut down in NYC and didn't care for that one much, but I can liv with it. Drug War- I would legalize drugs, but again don't care one bit.
There are a few I would trade against say, a 10% cut in my taxes.
My broader point was that it is hypocritical of big government, high-taxing liberals to attack the GOP for being against personal rights while they have one grubby hand in my wallet to redistribute MY wealth as they see fit. To me, the right to the fruits of your own labor is the most fundamental liberty of all.
This country fought a war (two actually) over that one.
It was Clinton who advocated and signed a bill imposing stricter prison terms for posession and dealing of Crack cocaine as opposed the powdered form.
Both republican and democrat presidents have a long history of appointing supreme court justices who end up not supporting the president's ideological viewpoint. Bush appointed David Souter and I think, but I'm not sure, that a Republican appointed Earl Warren.
Orrin Hatch (R) is indeed a proponent of banning internet gambling; he also has plenty of support from across the aisle on this issue.
I'd call it a plurality not a mandate, neither of the top two candidates got 50% of the vote. Ok I'm willing to listen to alternatives to the electoral college system. Besides doing away with it what would you propose in it's place? If you have the top vote getter win, I would guess that the majority of the voting electorate will see their candidate lose quite often.
I remember two weeks back when the it looked more likely that Bush would win the popular vote and Gore could sneak in through the electoral college. I didn't recall seeing any Democrats questioning how the Constitution dictates that we elect our President. Now all the sudden, the sour grapes. Not surprising.
Although I was not yet born when the 1960 election happened, I recall reading how Richard Nixon felt that he rightfully won the election and that all of his advisors pressed him to demand recounts and look into the Kennedy fraud in Texas and Illinois. But since he did not want to put the country through such an event, he conceded. Interesting to note that such a shadily-viewed character like Nixon took the high road, but it looks like Gore will not.
We will wait for a recount, as we should because the laws of Florida provide for one in this case, but I have a feeling that when this does not satisfy the big government, midnight basketball loving taxing machine we call Gore, we will hear more about how old people could not figure out how to vote correctly and how mysterious ballot boxes are showing up. I have a bad feeling that we will all be eating our Thanksgiving turkeys while discussing the latest investigations and challenges and still waiting for an end to this saga.
I can understand Gore's dilemma however and I can even sympathize. Imagine spending your whole life fighting for higher taxes and bigger government, only to realize that come January he will end up just like some other staunch Democrats - UNEMPLOYED.
They are already starting. That kool-aid drinking idiot Robert Wexler is claiming his constiuents were too stupid to figure out how to punch the ballot for Gore and accidentally voted for Buchanan instead.
If the Dems challenge the recount and demand an investigation, I predict ther will be criminal implications. There has been rampant democrat voter fraud in urban centers going back to Kennedy. It has gotten even worse onder Clintongore. Check out Worldnetdaily to see some of the cheap tactics they used in California and Washington to perpetuate illegal voting.
Which brings up another point, if we are to abolish the electoral college and an election like this occurred, we should recount EVERY vote cast not just the Florida votes.
We should note that the impetus for an argument should in no way negate the merits of the argument itself. You may think Gore supporters have a point re: the electoral college, and you may not. But the fact that Gore supporters are constructing the argument should have no bearing on your judgment of same.
Anyone else find it interesting that the media is reluctant to admit that the media poorly "projected" state results last night?
Even more scary is that they may have actually influenced the outcome. They declared Florida before the the polls closed and this may have depressed turnout in the panhandle, a Republican stronghold.
Does anyone else think this may not have been an accident?
I assure you that this mess is going to cost the taxpayers millions. The recount and appeal of the recount (no matter who takes Florida in recount - Bush will appeal too) will take days or weeks and will cost us millions.
Gore won this election. Bush is trying to scrape through on a technicality in a state that statistically shows no difference between the 2 candidates. If Bush takes Florida and not Oregon he scrapes by with ONE over the minimum electoral votes needed. That makes me sick.
Tell you what - we'll compromise. Let's split Florida down the middle - heck we'll even kick the spare electoral vote Bush's way - 12 for Gore and 13 for Bush. We still win anyway.
-SmoothB-
You are really worried about spending a few million taxpayer dollars on a recount when Gore is proposing to initiate a trillion dollars worth of new spending if elected?
I'm out.
When self parody sets in, I don't feel compelled to respond any longer.
That's not very Democratic of you, SmoothB. I thought that instead of this you would suggest that we add on 1 more percent to federal income taxes in order to teach old people how to successfully vote for their chosen candidate.
You are a retard. Stop humiliating yourself.
You are a laughing stock. Ummm, which administration posted a huge *SURPLUS*??? Hint - it wasn't Reagan. Clinton dumbass.
Get a life and some dignity. And some facts, while you're at it.
-SmoothB-
As much as I would like to see Gore win, I would hardly call the constitution of the United States a technicality. Whoever wins Florida wins the election, period. No whining allowed.
YJ
Our constitution is arguably the most important historical document of modern times. It officially marks the birth of the greatest country and society in human history. But to a democrat it is just a TECHNICALITY to be dismissed. Usually we hear about this when they are trying to take away the clearly stated right to bear arms. This is a new twist. Gotta give them this.. liberals are always entertaining.
CNN has shown an interview with Gore done a few weeks ago in which the possibility was discussed of a candidate that could win the popular vote but lose the electoral college. He stated that he didn't think it was likely to happen and expressed his support for the electoral college system. And when asked if a popular defeat along with an electoral college victory would hurt the legitimacy and mandate of such a President, he replied that it would not.
Man people like you who spout with no facts piss me off. But I can cheer myself up by humiliating you. Here goes.
'Our constitution is arguably the most important historical document of modern times. It officially marks the birth of the greatest country and society in human history. But to a democrat it is just a TECHNICALITY to be dismissed. Usually we hear about this when they are trying to take away the clearly stated right to bear arms. '
I am still laughing at you.
1) Who do you think is working harder to see the constitution didmantled - republicans or democrats? Look at some recent supreme court decisions and how the republican appointees have been deciding on them. They make me shudder.
2) Republicans want a flag burning AMENDMENT to the constitution. In it's more progressive days, over 20 years ago, the supreme court decided that it is UNCONSTITUTIONAL to prohibit someone from exercising their freedom of expression, and that laws against flag burning are unconstitutional. What do republicans do when the constitution says something they don't like? They try to change it with an amendment.
3) THERE IS NO CLEARLY STATED RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS IN THE CONSTITUTION. This is a typical statement from you brain dead Rush Limbaugh types. Learn to think for your goddamn selves you sheep.
The whole reason why we have all this controversy today is PRECISELY beacuse there IS no clearly stated right to bear arms. There is a vague reference to the states rights to maintain a militia. Many pro gun pundits have loosely defined a 'militia' as 'any wife beating alcoholic inbred lowlife with a gun'.
I am really getting tired of having to dumb down all these civics lessons to the masses here.
-SmoothB-
You say you want to talk about facts. Lets look at your facts.
"1) Who do you think is working harder to see the constitution didmantled - republicans or democrats? Look at some recent supreme court decisions and how the republican appointees have been deciding on them. They make me shudder"
How can this be a fact? This is an unsupported rambling statement. Let's discuss specific decisions and how the decisions of Republican appointees are dismantling the constitution, Mr. Facts.
2) I agree with you about the flag burning amendment. I don't support flag burning, but I don't think there should be an amendment against it. I believe it is protected in the Constitution via the First Amendment. I am able to express opinions in which I disagree with the candidate that I voted for. I never have seen anything like this written from you, by the way.
I only listen to the radio when I drive and I generally do not drive during the afternoon hours when Rush Limbaugh is on. While he's supporting the same candidate as I am, that doesn't mean that I agree with everything that he says. There are issues that I disagree with him on that I'd be happy to discuss. So your idea that I don't think for myself and believe every word he says is incorrect. Care to list your concerns with the Democratic platform and where you decide to objectively disagree? Or might you be the one that is spoon fed?
I chuckle to myself when ANYONE that identifies with EITHER party believes in every issue on the party platform. I distrust a blindly Republican slant like Rush Limbaugh the same way I distrust a blindly Democratic slant like yours.
3) "A well regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed".
Now we can get to that teeny tiny vague barely noticable 2nd Amendment that somehow slipped in. I don't know how THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED can be read any other way. And I would suggest to you that you have likely lived your entire life in a free society that is a democracy. People today cannot imagine a tyrannical government. But history bares this fact : When the government controls the guns, it results in tyrannical rule.
I think it is a good idea that we discuss some facts rather than read bigoted remarks (I think most intelligent people would consider your post assailing the entire populations of several US states more to be "SPOUTING without facts" than anything I've written).
Ok here goes -
Supreme court decision - police officers have 'just cause' to chase you down and search you - without your consent - if you do nothing more than run away from a cop after seeing one. IE if you see a cop, then run in the other direction, the cop can chase you down and search you.
I used to see things like this in movies about Nazi Germany and I considered myself lucky to live in a country like the USA. Now we are becoming like Nazi Germany. I feel sick.
Supreme court decision #2 - reversing Miranda decision. We all know about the Miranda decision - IE Miranda rights. I don't know the status of this case, but the supreme court was going to / already has decided on a case that might completely reverse this decision. That means that cops don't have to tell you your rights when they arrest you.
In both of these cases, the democratic appointees were VEHEMENTLY against these decisions, and they were being carried by republican appointees.
There's 2 for you - there are plenty of others.
Ok, some things about the democratic platform that I don't agree with -
I do not have a problem with school vouchers in some circumstances.
I am often opposed to hiking up the minimum wage.
I think the democratic party does not take a firm enough stand on issues such as universal healthcare, universal daycare, gay rights to marriage and the military, etc. It sickens me that the govenment restricts people's rights to marry whom they choose - what business is it of theirs?? And it sickens me that the democratic party doesn't do enough to stand up for what's right.
I also dislike Gore's position on the death penalty. It should be outlawed entirely.
I don't like a lot of what I know about Gore's attacks on the pharmaceutical industry.
How's that?
As for the militia bit - you are leaving out half the sentence! It says The right to bear arms shall not be infringed BECAUSE OF the need for the state to maintain a militia. Read the whole sentence. The second right conditional on the necessity of the first half of the sentence.
-SmoothB-
I haven't read the other posts yet so I may be repeating somebody else but you are so wrong on this it is not even funny. Bush is trying to win on a technicality???? What the fuck does that mean? The electoral college is the way presidents are elected in this country and that is how it has always been since the guys in wigs wrote the constitution. This is not a technicality. Things are being done according to the law- The Florida recount is mandatory (under Florida law) and whoever reaches 270 electoral votes wins. Clear cut, no technicalities. By the way Bush was very close in the popular vote, unlike the only other time this happened where the discrepency was 3 full percentage points. I do think that this electoral college system should be done away with for future elections because it is kind of outdated for modern elections but until that day comes all we can do is go by that system.
Gore barely eeked it out in Iowa and Wisonsin, also by less than 1/2%. He might lose Oregon. There are 25 EVs that would offset Florida.
There has already beena scandal where a dem benefactor was trading packs of cigs for votes in Milwaukee. That is illegal. Bush should demand recounts and investigations in these states.
This unbearably long election could be even longer.
...of political bad beats, the decomposing corpse of a Democrat was just elected to a Senate seat.
Is it legal? Yes. Is it right? That can be debated. Very much like the prospect of Bush losing the popular vote and winning the election.
You have a problem with a decomposing corpse winning an election? It was announced that his widow would be nominated for that seat if he won. Is this a bad thing?
Well, what about when George Wallace (it's hard to even type that name without retching) had his wife run for governor because, by the constitution, he couldn't run for another consecutive term. Then, when his wife was elected, he pushed her aside and ran the show. When her term was over, and he could run again in his own right, that's exactly what he did.
Is this moral or ethical?
There was no deception with that senate race in Missouri. Everyone knew he was dead. Everyone knew his wife would assume that seat.
What is the problem here?
Bad beat?? You really think that other guy would have won if his opponent was ALIVE?!?!?!?! Gimmie a break!
-SmoothB-
"There was no deception with that Senate race in Missouri."
You're right. There's no deception with the Presidential race, either. Bush won fair and square. He could have easily won the popular vote and lost the election. In fact, that's what most political pundits thought would happen.
"Bad beat?? You really think that other guy would have won if his opponent was ALIVE?!?!?!?!"
I have no idea. It certainly changed the dynamic of Ashcroft's campaign. Even Josef Stalin wouldn't have had the nerve to talk smack about a woman who recently lost her husband and son. If anything, I think it helped the Democrats.
Well SmoothB you really are a classic....and clueless.
There are a number of things wrong with the dead-guy winning situation.
1. The Missouri state constitution provides that only a resident of the state of Missouri is allowed to be a candidate for the office. When Mr. Carnahan died, he ceased being a resident of the state of Missouri, pursuant to Missouri law. His name should have been removed from the ballot completely but there was not enough time. Thus, idiots were allowed to vote in a dead man.
2. There were definite "unlawful irregularities" at work in this election to the advantage of the deceased Mr. Carnahan. Voting polls in St. Louis City, the most democratic area in the entire state, were allowed to stay open for at least 50 minutes beyond what the rest of the state allows because democrats argued that lines were too long and they couldn't get to the polls on time. In no other area of the state was this allowed. And in fact, the law provides that the polls stay open for a certain period of time and that time had passed. However, a liberal trial judge in St. Louis ordered the polls stay open for another 3 hours. The polls were finally closed after a Court of Appeals ordered them closed.
3. Perhaps most telling, Senator John Ashcroft, the incumbent who was defeated by the dead man in the election, has, despite the questionable election procedures in St. Louis City and probable non-eligible dead candidate, publicly conceded the race and stated that he will not pursue legal action or other avenues. Too bad Mr. Gore cannot be as gracious in true defeat.
And, finally, I think a number of people from Missouri would agree with me that it is entirely possible, and indeed probable, that Mr. Carnahan would not have gotten as many votes had he been alive. Whether you want to admit it or not, there is no question that a large number of people voted for Carnahan because they felt bad for his wife, a lady no more fit to serve in the Senate than my grandmother.
you are not fit to serve in any chamber, outside of the outhouse.
Ahhh..Oh..Just woke up! Hmmm. yeah.. So who won? Bush, really. Well since I have an absentee ballot that I haven't sent in yet I guess I'll vote for.. What's that you say, Gore won. Are you serious. he got Florida? But I thought you said Bush got Florida? Oh that was earlier. So now the T.V guys are giving it to Gore.
Hey, hon, got an eraser? I need to change my vote from.. What, you mean Gore didn't get Florida .. What gives? The T.V guys are now giving Bush the Florida electoral votes. C'mon give me a break. Is there somehin wrong with them Florida voters or maybe there is somethin wrong with the T.V guys. Sheesh...Figures... American politics.
Forget the eraser hon, I'm stickin with.. No, no don't start again, What. you mean they don't know who got Florida? Over 5 million votes cast and they can't figure out who won. There is something wrong with Florida voters. After all look who the governor is. The almost, maybe, next president. That is if he can only win his brothers state. I guess that old adage "I am my brothers keeper" is true sometimes.
So now what? A recount. Where? In Florida. Well if they are recounting there maybe we need a recount nationwide. Better yet, let's do it again. Let's declare next tuesday the second November 7th, 2000 and let everybody revote. I think it will be o.k. After all this is the milenium. The year of Armegedon. Never a truer prediction has been made. Regardlees of which of these two get in, it appears we have a disaster on our hands. Well I guess I better wait until after the recount to cast my vote. After all, I have always voted for the winner in the past and I want to keep my record in tact.
vince
Vince, Sorry to bust that lil fantasy bubble you got going there, but your absentee ballot is void...it had to be postmarked by midnight yesterday...sorry bud. I had to clarify this fact for you because it was painful to see how hard you were debating whom to cast your absentee ballot for. Moot point, but hey..next time you'll know, right?
Well, it looks like the white trash mandate may bring him GW Bush as president. If you think this is ridiculous and, like me, wonder how inbred white trash can have such a big impact on the lives of the rest of us, then read this informative post.
WHITE TRASH ARE OVERREPRESENTED IN NATIONAL ELECTIONS.
Here is the proof.
State: Population (P) Elect. Votes (EV) P/EV
California 33,145,000 54 613.8 K
New York 18,197,000 33 551.4 K
Oklahoma 3,358,000 8 419.8 K
Wyoming 480,000 3 160.0 K
As these facts illustrate, people that live in states with smaller populations have proportinally more voters in the electoral college representing them. In Wyoming, 160K people get one voter. On California, one voter is shared by 613.8K people!
That means that a vote in Wyoming is worth *** OVER 3.8 TIMES AS MUCH *** as a vote cast by a Californian!!!!!!!!!
States with smaller populations are far more likely to be rural states than states that have large populations. And, rural states are more likely to be populated by ignorant white trash than educated professionals. You want some toothless inbred white trash retard from Wyoming's vote to carry nearly 4 times as much weight as yours? I don't!
The result of all this is George Bush. God help us.
-SmoothB-
I'm sure the residents of Oklahoma and Wyoming will take issue with your characterization of them as white trash. What a mean spirited bigot you are.
Geez. I expect disagreement on topics like this but you demean yourself with this bigotry and calling the constitution a technicality. You should take a few hours to cool off before posting again on this forum if you want any credibility at all.
With your statements, even Al Gore would be embarrassed to have your support.
Smooth -- Go F#@! yourself.
SmoothB,
The fact is we are not a democracy, but a republic. The same ratios that you complain of in the Electoral College are the same ratios of representation that create the checks and balances of in our two houses of Congress. Statehood itself -- not just population -- is a critical factor in our republic. Under the logical extension of your complaint, the United States Senate should be dissolved and we should govern strictly by States' population. Your post implicitly demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of our nation's founding principles.
And don't generalize. People in smaller states are not white trash. Just like people in major metropolitan areas are not elitist snobs, junkies, homeless or minorities.
Jon I.
Ok, let me clarify something. People from small states are not ALL white trash. People from small states are MORE LIKELY TO BE white trash.
Just like poker - AA is MORE LIKELY to win a hand than 72 offsuit. But not ALL AA vs. 72o hands result in a win for AA.
Get the picture?
-SmoothB-
s
Yes you're no doubt trolling with these posts.
Here's another good one for you.
Alaska senators = 2, pop = 350k
Cali senators = 2, pop = 33 million.
AK P/sen = 175 k CA P/sen = 16.5 million.
Do you think this was an accident? No, it was by design. The inbred rural white trash like Thomas Jefferson didn't want elitist, facist, turtleneck-wearing "liberals" like you using the populus to steal their goodies in the name of god, country, and "the greater good."
They had been there, done that with the monarchy. They fought a revolution over it. And they won.
Why don't you move to Europe with Baldwin, Streisand, Basinger, and all of the other elitists if you like the welfare state so much?
Don't you understand? Jefferson, Franklin et all were clearly morons. The best and brightest American is SmoothB.
Maybe we should consider sending him to Washington. We could get rid of that crap Constitution and get some fresh ideas from a bright guy.
Perhaps the 28th Amendment eliminating the right to vote for people in states deemed to be white trash.
I can see the headlines now : "Bush carries Florida by thin margin giving him 271 electoral votes, Democratic candidate SmoothB demands he concedes defeat".
To all the good folks reading this with a sane mind, how do you like this fact : SmoothB's vote counts as 1 just the same as yours. You truly have to love democracy to embrace that fact.
You are providing me with no end of entertainment today. At first I was really serious about all this - I really wanted to explain my position to you and other people and prove myself right with facts and numbers.
But now I am starting to feel sorry for you. You have no facts or numbers to fight with, and your rhetoric is laughable.
This is like playing nickel dime stakes poker with family members. Sure it is fun to win, but after a while you just feel so sorry for them that you go easy on them.
That's what I'm going to try to do with you, although I might still inadvertently pound you now and then.
Here is a comment I have...
'The inbred rural white trash like Thomas Jefferson didn't want elitist, facist, turtleneck-wearing "liberals" like you using the populus to steal their goodies in the name of god, country, and "the greater good." '
Man when I read this I nearly peed my pants. It's like a 3rd grader coming up to you, all furious and with tears in his eyes, trying to pick a desperate fight with you. You just want to laugh but don't want to hurt his little feelings.
I don't think there really were many urban, liberal, elitest types in the year 1800 - do you? I kinda think the whole point of this is that, back then, big landowners in agricultural states WERE the elitists. Only landowning men could vote back then. So I don't think there was too much concern for 'protecting' rural farmers from urban liberal eilitists.
Ok, I am laughing so hard that tears are coming to my eyes. I have to go now.
-SmoothB-
You may have a point about the electoral college. But your remarks regarding the people of Tenn., Wy., etc. are unexcusable.
If you've ever wondered why there is so much animosity directed at liberals-- and I, too, am a liberal, at least most of the time-- it's because they suspect that deep down most liberals would love to say the things that you wrote in the above post.
Although I dont agree with his white trash stuff, the analysis and result that a Wyoming vote is worth 3.8 times more in the electoral college than a California vote is stunning. Something is wrong with the system if this is the case. Does this bother anyone else?
hhh
Smooth,
I like your input on hold’em. But on this forum you definitely sound like bigot.
I’m not white trash. I’m educated and in fact I’m a professor at a college.
After 30 plus years as a democrat I voted republican.
I voted for Bush.
The Clinton years ended my democratic commitment.
one of those politically correct liberals, are ya?
If I were from Wyoming, I'd want to kick your ass right now.
If you don't like the system, that's your prerogative. But to say the system is wrong because individuals you've labeled as "white trash" are overrepresented is ridiculous. This is the kind of argument made by a wide variety of hate-mongers on all sides of the fence throughout history. The fact that you've presented this argument says something about you, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This is because there are two different schools of thought on who the Federal Government is representing. The first is that it represents individual people. This leads to power proportional to population. This is manifested in the House of Representatives. The second school is that the Federal Government is a government of the States. In this case each state has equal weight. The Senate and also the name (we are not the United People of America) capture this ideal. The Electoral College is a compromise of the two. If you really want to get mad look at the difference in “power” in approving amendments to the Constitution.
p.s. I am sure that the people of Rhode Island and Delaware appreciate your classification of small states.
and true ?
It looks like you've discovered that many of our 2+2 contributors are from the rural areas of small states!! Man, I'm going to have to give more credibility to your poker posts from now on! Good job!
COME ON FOLKS! Bush is an idiot! The guy yaps about messing with the Social Security system and doesn't even know when/why it was created! And he's been given the white house?
I posted this yesterday before the polls were closed:
>>What's hurting Bush in Florida are his ideas regarding Social Security. Social Security is a political sacred cow that few Republicans or Democrats will ever talk about changing much during a campaign. I have listened to some very interesting Senate debates about Social Security in the past and IMO both parties come down basically the same on this issue. The senior citizens in Florida are scared to death that they will lose their stipend if Bush wins. If Bush wasn't advocating the changes he is now IMO he would be way ahead in Florida.<<
Social Security needs to be fixed. Clinton has said it, Bush has said it, hell Gore has said it. At least Bush took a stand for what he believes in (which no doubt cost him votes in THE key state) instead of pandering to another special interest group. BTW if you think that Bush will get any kind of radical changes to Social Security through the new Congress IMO you are sadly mistaken.
Bush split the oldster vote in Florida. He also carried the Cuban-Americans by a wide margin. So why is it so close? Blacks by a landslide for Gore with big turnout and 18-30 year olds going big for Gore.
Go figure.
Democrats win the black vote. Then they vote for racial quotas and affirmative action. There's your handout for being a good Democrat.
Democrats win the poor vote. Here's your welfare $$. Oh, Miss Welfare Crack Whore you had another bastard baby? You just got a raise! There's your handout for being a good Democrat.
Democrats win the old vote. Your social security is in a LOCK BOX. Did you hear me? A LOCK BOX? It is LOCKED in a BOX. Nothing can happen to it in this LOCKED BOX. There's your handout for voting Democrat.
I used to play in a poker room in the city. An underground type of place. "Don't worry", they said. "The cops are on the payroll".
My question : Who votes for Al Gore that is not on the government payroll?
That's a great attitude.
So answer me this. Now that the kid is born-- and children are born every day to single moms who are NOT 'crack whores'-- what do you do? Are you, for one, willing to let these kids starve? Or go without basic vacinations and medical care?
Remember, this kid is born NOW. If a 'cut in taxes' will eventually mean a livable wage for all working Americans, the key word there is eventually. No mom can make it on 7 an hour. Which means that the money to raise the child has to come from somewhere.
I understand you like to talk about welfare abuse-- it's fun, it's easy, gets the blood pressure up... gives you a chance to rant about 'liberals'... but the fact is that many, many single moms-- and I'm talking here about women that aren't drunks, or herion addicts, or hookers-- couldn't get by without these programs, or meet the immediate needs of their children.
Bush is an idiot because he wants to get a higher return on social security premiums than would a passbook checking account?
Do you keep your money under a mattress?
I admit there are some problems with the gap that will occur in the conversion from the way current benefits are paid out (with current contributions) to an investment-type mechanism, but can you argue with the theory?
Every private retirement plan in America works this way.
With respect to me, Gore's plan can be summarized like this: "Give me some money each week, and when you retire, I'll give most of it back to you without paying you any interest."
If that's how you think it should be, Nick, you can send me a few hundred each month, and when you retire, I'll give it back to you interest-free. In the meantime, I'll will fuel my private jet with the returns I'll get (and which you could have gotten) in the intertim.
The point of my post was that Bush is an uninformed moron. If he utters anything that resembles knowledge it is because his advisors slipped him the words to repeat. Even I knew that FDR created the SS system back in the 30's and I DON'T EVEN CARE ABOUT IT, nor am I a candidate for President.
I would rather have a president who can deal with people and get them to work together. The Middle-East crisis won't be solved because the peace-broker happened to know the Old Testament back and forth before his services were needed. It might be solved with a leader who knows how to treat people with respect and can get people to work together.
Facts can be learned. Likeability cannot.
I wanted a genius president I would have voted for Stephen Hawking. Or one of those supersmart tykes from the critically acclaimed movie "Baby Geniuses."
I sho be proud of libal crackers lik u dat be ginst de rednek peckerwood caze u kno dat we kned mo firmative axshun an we b needed mo wellfair for da ho's dat be havin all da chillins an we be needun to let all de bros out uf de jail an u no dat be write I sho wush dey be mo crackers lik u
s
http://x70.deja.com/threadmsg_md.xp?thitnum=1&AN=691163265.1&mhitnum=0&CONTEXT=973706181.916979726
Badger's website is www.playwinningpoker.com
Badger is an idiot and that is why he is no longer allowed to post here.
It's going to be performed in a very odd way:
http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45589-2000Nov8.html
ohmygawd, i am STILL rolling on the floor laughing my ass off! Thanks for sharing that website, Talbot!
at you liberals when Bush takes office. You bleeding heart bastards are so bad for the health of this country it is almost scary. Eight years of the Clinton regime finally coming to an end. Yaaaay!!!!!!!!! Fire away all you want- trust me I'll enjoy every word of hate directed toward me from a left wing nut.
Just FYI: I don't really buy into ALL the conservative beliefs, but for the most part it's decent stuff unlike the democrats. Long live the GOP!
Once Again: FIRE AWAY SUCKERS!
Republicans are so unpunk they are actually punk. Kinda like Oasis.
The dems picked up 1 hosue seat and the GOP is going to retain the majority in the Senate. This will be the first time since the 1900s that the GOP has a mojority of the house for 4 consecutive terms.
The GOP won the Presidential vote in times of prosperity in Dem strongholds like WV, maybe Oregon, and barely missed in IA and WI.
He is the best thing that ever happened for the Republicans. And his own party, especially the lefties, still love the big He. Go figure.
I am glad we are going to have a Clinton to kick around for the next 6 years. Hillary! will be the GOP's Newt Gingrich. I can see the 2002 house ads now for SmoothB's"white trash" districts. There won't be a congressman or Senator south of the Mason-Dixon line who will let himself be filmed with Hillary!
How can you say the GOP win the presidential vote when they lost the popular vote? They won the electoral college, maybe. Bush and the GOP have not received any sort of mandate from the people of this country. Remember, your hero is a "united not a divider". Also, why do you republicans hate Clinton so much? I can tell you, my mutual funds and 401K did outstanding these past 8 years, way better than when daddy Bush was in office. If it has something to do with Clintons morals/ethics, are you really trying to tell me you look to politicians to provide the moral compass and guidelines for our country????? If you do, you need to do some serious soud searching. When trying to instill morals/ethics into my children, I look to myself, my church, my family and friends, and my local community. The last place I look at is a politician.
How can you say the GOP win the presidential vote when they lost the popular vote? They won the electoral college, maybe. Bush and the GOP have not received any sort of mandate from the people of this country. Remember, your hero is a "united not a divider". Also, why do you republicans hate Clinton so much? I can tell you, my mutual funds and 401K did outstanding these past 8 years, way better than when daddy Bush was in office. If it has something to do with Clintons morals/ethics, are you really trying to tell me you look to politicians to provide the moral compass and guidelines for our country????? If you do, you need to do some serious soul searching. When trying to instill morals/ethics into my children, I look to myself, my church, my family and friends, and my local community. The last place I look at is a politician.
xx
I can tell you, my mutual funds and 401K did outstanding these past 8 years, way better than when daddy Bush was in office.
What specific Clinton policy do you attribute this to? How do you think they would have done if taxes were raised to provide socialized medical care? This is what Clinton promised to do. Again, what did Clinton do to help your mutual funds and 401k?
Read "The Agenda" by Bob Wooward. It details Clintons economic policies and what went into getting his 1993 budget plan passed. It goes into such esoteric matters as the BTU tax, the Clintons economic/policy stance on it and how it affects the economy. This plan or "agenda" as Woodward terms it was passed in 1993, with Al Gore passing it after the Senate had deadlocked 50-50. It was because this plan/agenda passed that our country now enjoys the most prosperous 8 years we have ever had.
Wow!! You, Bob Woodward, and Slick Willy deserve the Nobel Prize for economics. You can boil down what makes the multitillion dollar economy tick into a single book and budget plan. Maybe you can impart your wisdom on Japan and Europe. They could use a recipe for prosperity too.
why dont you read the book then make your comments? or would this be too much trouble for someone of your intellect?
I'm more of an Austrian School econoics guy. Hayek, von Mises, Hazlitt.
"Progress is the function of human action, not human design." -Ludwig von Mises.
A biased account of Clinton's brilliant budget policy is just not my cup of tea when it comes to macroeconomics. I'll read what I choose, thank you ver much. I do find your response to the original postrer interesting.
Care to think and answer for yourself about what specifically Clinton did?
Again, I suggest you read the book. I will be the first to admit that I cannot go into the detail as well as the book can, especially in this limited forum. If you provide your e-mail address, I would be more than happy to send you a long, detailed account of why I think this plan or agenda led us to our prosperity. Since you like referring to earlier e-mails, you responmded to one part of mine but not the other. Why do you hate Clinton? If its because of his moral/ethical errors, please dont tell me you look to politicians for your moral and ethical guidance...that truly would be laughable!!!
It's like riding a Harley-Davidson. If you have to ask, you wouldn't understand.
What does Bob Woodward know about econmics? What do you know about economics? I hold an MA in econmics.
In 1992 Clinton promised to provide socialized medicine. He was unable to get his plan passed. What do you think would have happened if his plan had been passed. Clinton promised to socialize medicine, was unsuccessful and now you credit him for the strong economy? I would suggest if you want to learn about econ you read what economists write, not what a leftist journalist writes.
(Randy and Fred, I'm not calling either of you stupid.)
Clinton deserves credit for the economy to the extent that he deserves credit for re-appointing Alan Greenspan. And paying down the national debt may also have led to a stable, strong economy -- but remember: that was a Republican platform piece that Clinton hijacked and took the credit for only after it became apparent that the Republicans would achieve it in spite of him (just like welfare reform).
The grand economy that we are experiencing, to the extent that it can be attributed to anyone in government, should be attributed to Ronald Reagan. His inflation-fighting and tax-cutting built the foundations for the strong economy we have today. Remember, we have had only two quarters of economic non-growth (recession) since the last recession in 1982. The 1992 recession was even over before Clinton took office. The '80s and '90s are the same economic boom. How did Clinton/Gore affect the economy in the '80s?
Jon I.'s quick lesson on why tax-cuts (like Reagan's) create economic growth: 1. taxes are cut; 2. which causes an increase in savings; 3. increases in savings are increases in investment; 4. increased investment means causes increased capital formation; 5. increased capital formation causes higher capital/labor ratio; 6. higher capital/labor ratio causes increased worker productivity; 7. increased worker productivity causes wages to increase. Ah, supply-side economics! A simplistic explanation, yes, but I haven't used my economics degree in six years.
Jon I.
Don't you think that a key ingrediant to making supply side economics work is paying off the deficit. I'm not sure just wondering. If I remember correctly the cornerstone of supply side economics is that lower tax revenue will eventually be returned due to the eventual increase in wages. During the Reagan administration I believe supply side economics did not pan out due to the tremendous amount of increased government spending (hey there were some tremendous benifits derived from it IMO). I'm not disagreeing with you or the validity of supply side economics but I was wondering if I have this right.
your right!!! Lets be honest, everything thats gone right in this country for the last 8 years has been because of Reagan and everything that has gone wrong has been Clinton's fault. Why didnt I see this before??????
Like I said -- its been awhile. However, the dominant tenant in most conservative economic philosophies -- supply-side, monetarism, new business cycle, etc., is that the fiscal policy (defined as government spending) has little or no effect on the economy. I think that the recent history has shown that deficit reduction may have had an indirect impact on interest rates or inflation -- and thus on savings and capital formation. To that extent deficit reduction may have helped the economy.
There you go again. Seems you elephant types like to employ selective memory. For all 8 years of the Gipper, he had a Democratic majority in the House and for 6 years he had a Democratic majority in the Senate. My point is you can't have it both ways -- either the Democrats should be given credit for the wonderful economy of the '80s (which the GOP looks back on as a "golden" era (yuck)) or Clinton has to be given credit for the economy of the 90s (objectively much, much better than the "golden" Gipper years). Only the Congress can pass the laws -- President proposes, Congress disposes.
So, take your pick -- you CANNOT credit both Reagan for the 80s economy and the Republican congress since '94 for the 90s economy. If you're consistent and you want to canonize the Gipper, guess what? You just made your bud Slick Willy the freaking Pope. Gotcha!!
This 'elephant type' says: There are two forms of economic policy that come out of the federal government -- monetary policy (controlled by the Fed) and fiscal policy (covering taxation and government spending).
I believe, for reasons made clear to me during my education, that monetary policy and the taxation component of fiscal policy are the only governmental policies that have any effect on the economy.
So, to the extent that the Congressional Dems passed Reagan's tax cuts and couldn't override his veto on their proposed tax increases -- they deserve credit for the economy. To the extent that Congressional Dems strong-armed President Bush into signing a tax increase that stagnated the economy they deserve credit for the recession. And to the extent that Clinton consistently de-railed and vetoed every meaningful tax cut proprosal offered by the Republican Congress he deserves no credit for the economy (besides the no-brainer of re-appointing Greenspan). While you may not agree with my position, it is entirely consistent.
Jon I.
Nobody claims that the 90 or 94 Republican legislatures had much to do with the economic boom.
The Reagan explanation seems to make more sense, given that the wealthy ended up with a boatload of money and didn't know what to do with it.
The diminishing marginal utility of money in the hands of the few generally leads the few into investing in high-variance, high-return enterprises. Hence, the proliferation of crazy-venture capitalists.
I think that capital availability finally caught up with the progression of science and technology and allowed it to be marketed to a willing public, who bought it. Classic wealth creation.
The only hitch in this explanation, IMO, is the lag time between the Reagan cuts and the boom.
Goat,
Is it...can it possibly be...are you-you the ONLY person in america that has NOT prospered during the last eight years with Clinton in office? My god..my friends said they thought there must be one broke person running around, but I refused to believe them. Gimme your address and I'll be glad to send you a small check. You're gonna need the money if Bush manages to finagle the electoral vote in Florida.
Actually I don't work I play poker....Seriously. Any check is welcome though. I didn't know Clinton was solely responsible for a prospering economy......Silly me! It was he and he alone that resulted in our economy being good..... Whatever.
Liberal or conservative, so what? It is common knowledge that Bush junior is an ignoramous. You celebrate his election into the Presidency? What does that say about you?
I didn't know that an "ignoramous" could graduate from Yale. He also has a better academic record then Algore did as a student. Check your facts before you make a stupid ass post like this. I don't know exactly what it says about me other then the fact that if Bush indeed carries Florida, I will be happy and the liberals will be unhappy! By the way Bush is doing well in the Oregon count as well (not that it matters much but I thought I'd mention it anyway). Also, to Algores credit he did say that he wouldn't fight it if (as expected) Bush wins the electoral college but loses the popular vote. He said he had total confidence in the system. Well I hope that this is the last time that the electoral college system is used in the U.S. because this is indeed a screwy situation. I think it is silly that Gore not go to the Whitr House after winning the popular vote even though I personally am happy about it. This sort of thing should never happen again. I guess my side just got extremely lucky.
That is the difference between a republic and a democracy.
Goat,
It might interest you to know that CNN did a poll whereby 78% of those people polled said we should do away with the Electoral System in this country should it prove to over-ride the Popular vote of the people.
Yeah if we didn't still have this once effective, but now outdated process things would be much simpler. Gore won the poular vote and he really should win the election. It looks like the country might get lucky though and have Bush end up in office. I still wonder how Algore got so many vates in the first place.
All people who generate most or all of their income from Poker should be Liberals for two simple reasons.
1. You pay taxes on very little or none to your income. You shouldn’t care how big government is because you are not paying for it.
2. You need a big government safety net when you lose your bankroll and with your inferior thought patterns you will need it.
Some people are concerned for friends and family members though. I don't know any other people who derive all their income from poker so it is good to be on the lookout for them regardless of how I make my money. But there are numerous other reasons and ways that politics can affect ones life besides these two examples.
to preface my comments, let me just say i did not vote and do not care who wins the election. i have no politics. but i have seen some logical errors that i need to correct. (at least, i think i am right. of course, i may be making some errors too.)
first, a big part of our recent economic success is due to greenspan's efforts to keep rates low. clearly, substantial money now in the stock market would be in banks or bonds if interest rates were higher. dedicating funds to keep the national debt managable (it does not have to decrease in real terms, only in percent of gdp) allows greenspan more latitude in monetary policy. the shrinking federal deficit and eventual surplus during clinton's terms is of paramount importance to the success of our economy. i am not sure if clinton deserves the credit or the republican congress, but the republican president ran offering to give the surplus "back to americans" as a tax cut. most middle and upper class americans (basically people who invest in sotcks) would be better off over the next 5 years if that money was spent by the government towards the national debt than they would if they had the money to invest themselves. this is partly because when bush enters office and, with the republican congress, engineers the proposed tax cut, rates will rise and the market will fall. interestingly, poor people who save money in banks if at all will be hurt much less by bush's plan. also the increased unemployment caused by the recession will be mostly at the middle and lower upper class level.
second. perhaps the electoral college is outdated. perhaps it should be abolished. whatever. but to argue that one vote in wyoming is worth however many times more than one vote in california is ridiculous. looking state by state, we can say that a canidate can expect p% of the vote with a standard deviation s%. let's say wyoming and california are both exact toss ups and the canidate only has time for a rally in one. let us further suppose that the rally will make exactly 200000 more people vote for the canidate. (this assumption is false. a rally in ca will actually attract more votes than a rally in wy because its population is larger, but we aren't really looking at campaign strategy. we are trying to determine which 200000 votes is more important.) i am assuming that s% is 5%. i dont think this affects anything. let us also assume that we are trying to maximize expected electoral votes between ca and wy, which is a fair enough aasumption before any results are in. of course, once some results are in, the less electoral votes are needed and the more error is between maximize electoral votes and maximize chances of winning. but, in any case, the assumption is fine for how i am using it. now, consider, ev = ev(ca) + ev(wy). if the rally is in wy, your ev is 54*.5 + 3*1. well, not quite 1, but very close. anyway, this is 30, 1.5 better than before the rally. the california rally makes your ev 54*.55 + 3*.5. this is 31.2. so those voters are more important in california. another bias of the electoral college in favor of cities is that people who dont vote are still counted by the census. cities tend to have lower voter turnout. these more than outweigh the extra bonus for having senators split over less people. the electoral college actually gives more weight to larger states. fittingly, these states, with the glaring exceptions of gop texas and democrat ny, play host to most of canidates' time.
three. where all the white women at? yes, i am a minister. if you want to join my church, just send $1000 or proof of black blood to 5117 lerner hall, ny ny 10027. i will save your soul from eternal damnation upon recieving your check. god does not like violent racists? read the old testament, fool! god is a violent racist.
scott
>>three. where all the white women at? yes, i am a minister. if you want to join my church, just send $1000 or proof of black blood to 5117 lerner hall, ny ny 10027. i will save your soul from eternal damnation upon recieving your check. god does not like violent racists? read the old testament, fool! god is a violent racist.<<
Didn't Thomas Jefferson own slaves? Weren't women denied suffrage until the early 20th century? Wasn't slavery finally abolished in this country after the Civil War ended?
From the Decleration of Independance: >>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. <<
I guess our founding fathers meant men in the literal sense and they didn't consider male slaves to be men that were created equal.
i am not sure what you mean here. i was referring back to the discussion that errupted from my black power post about a week ago.
the answer to all three of your questions is yes, but i suppose you already knew that. as atticus finch advises, "never ask a question if you don't know the answer."
scott
it's not like it matters, but i'd like someone checking my work to get the same numbers.
scott
scott, I never said that God dislikes violent racists.
However, if you actually believe that God likes them or is one himself, this lends support to the notion that man invented God in his image rather than the other way around.
desire said it. in any case, i have claimed very few non-poker opinions on this site with any shread of seriousness. i can only think of defending language, laughter, and the abuse of alcohol. you should usually assume i am amusing myself (and my fans -- yes, i mean you, john feeney).
i believe voltaire's said it best with "if god did not exist, we would have to invent him." of course, he spoke in french. but his point was that the origins any conception of god by man could lie with either with equal probabilty. as for my actual take on god, my conception of man does not make it a meaningful question. i do not even answer "je ne sais pas, monsieur."
scott
ps free verse is better. most old lyric poetry is awful.
scott,
"Hail to thee, Blithe Spirit/Bird thou never wert."
Whataya mean, free verse is better?
John
So that's two lines in an otherwise great poem...if Shelley's tremendous lyricism does not allow him the luxury of a rare poor line, what should?
Actually, these lines make sense, even if they are unwieldy.
Taken as a prologue of sorts to the rest of the poem, the first two stanzas are indeed the most awkward. However, that very characteristic, in contrast with the rest of the poem, helps set them off as introductory. Perhaps Shelley did not have this in mind, but their very awkwardness provides a backdrop against which the intense lyricism of the rest of the poem is all the more greatly illuminated. It is rather like the setting sun itself against the deepening shades of evening sky--the dusk sets off the sun--the stodgy introduction contrasts with the lyricism which is about to explode...and the amazing part is that the very next (3rd) stanza begins "In the golden lightning of the sunken sun", with which this fits perfectly. With this line the great lyric imagery is truly initiated, and the bird's flight is like a movement towards it. In the 4th stanza, beginning "The pale purple even melts around thy flight" the lyricism starts to increase along with the imagery (which is exquisitely portayed in the 4th and 5th stanzas, and which, incredibly, even manages to portray imagery itself reflexively in simile). From this point on, the poem becomes, indeed, "harmonious madness", both aural and visual.
This is just my perception of the overall architecture of the poem, without attempting to explore content or such things as meter or rhyme scheme.
Mark,
Nice reading, and I agree. Often, great works of art begin hesitantly and then find their way. "Skylark" might be one of those. I hate those lines, but I love the poem. Now, I need to go back and read it again.
But, what can you do with these lines from Shelley:
"I fall upon the thorns of life/ I gash; I bleed!"
I'm not sure if I got the above completely right, but it captures the spirit.
John
John, I will have to reread Ode To The West Wind. I have never really thoroughly read it, so I cannot offer an interpretation of those lines just yet. I will read it before falling asleep, and am glad you suggested it.
Actually, the metaphor in the 5th stanza more portrays imagery itself than does the simile in the 4th. Yet they are related images and work well together.
I find it interesting that various parts of the poem seem to have a sort of reflexive quality: the introductory contrast in the poem itself with the image of the sun against the dusk; the bird moving towards the lyrical explosion about to commence; the images that double as themselves and as images of imagery itself; and of course the harmonious madness Shelley is wishing for yet is already achieving.
There may be other reflexive elements that I have not noticed or looked for yet; who knows upon further inspection what treasures might be found?
"as for my actual take on god, my conception of man does not make it a meaningful question."
Only an Ivy Leaguer under the age of 23 could say something like this with a straight face... :)
i think we have a little hindsight bias here. if that had been my first post, i dont think you'd have been so sure.
well, that and had i not listed my email.
besides, how do you know when i have a straight face? apprently most people have trouble.
scott
Hey M,
Why do bad things happen to good people?
Maniac
What Maniac Mark's question has to do with whether or not God might hold racist views is beyond me.
However, it is true that throughout history God's will has been used as a convenient excuse for all manner of reprehensible actions, and it is also true that having God on one's side has been used as an excuse for pure self-interest.
That was a lot less entertaining then your usual posts.
i know and i apologize. i have to make actual comments once in a while to keep most of these serious people reading my posts. i view them as a necessary evil. if they all stopped reading my posts then i couldn't read their replies and i wouldn't have any material. i just hope you didn't read the whole thing. and please keep reading. i promise you victory. i promise you good times. the pincher can't fail agasint a ten year old.
scott
Keep It I Don't Want It!!!
AAhhhhhssssssssoooooooooooooo!!!!
The debate concerning the electoral versus the popular vote is about to be energized. scott had some great thoughts below but George Will (probably even smarter than scott) wrote a great column last week. You can read it for yourself at:
Link To George Will Column on the Electoral College
Anyway, Confuscious Say: "Some poker players like to talk politics." If anyone else has good links or counter arguments, please post them.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
How smart can George Will be? He's a baseball fan ;>)
Paul T.
I hate George Will's politics, but I can't let a baseball insult go by unanswered. As one of the best baseball writers once said:
"Baseball is dull only to those with dull minds."
KJS
Will and baseball story...
George Will went to my high school (though he is not our most distinguished alumnus--we got THREE nobel prize winners) and every once in awhile the local paper, having nothing better to do, interviews his parents. They always make a point of how they were "horrified" at one point in Will's life when they thought he might become(gasp!).... a sports journalist! Kind of elitist for East-Central Illinois.
I guess what he's doing is okay too.
PS. Ironically my high school is the most left wing environment I've ever been in. Maybe it wasn't in Will's day.
Will's argument that the electoral college forces national campaigns rings false to us here in Colorado where neither candidiate bother to run even a single television ad. It was assumed on both sides that Bush would win so neither side bothered to woo our votes.
Without the electoral system, my vote would have mattered as much as anyone elses, since I live in Colorado where the results were a forgone conclusion, it did not.
Paul Talbot
no one is smarter than i.
further, will's audience is certainly not as smart as my audience.
still further, will is a dork.
as for counter arguments, i really dont have an opinion on whether we should abolish the electoral college. i suppose if i were to ever consider voting i might develop such an opinion, but probably not even then. the fact is that the electoral college usually magnifies the advantage of the leader. actually, i would bet assuming normal distributions you could compute the odds of a conflict between the electoral and the popular votes. i would guess it is very small, less than one percent. i have not done and will not do the math, but that's my hunch.
will is certainly right that the electoral college is what forces the two party system. whether or not you think this is a good thing basically depends on whether or not you are a memeber of some fringe political segment.
will also claims that the electoral college forces a national campaign. i think this is false. the lure of all of california's votes entices canidates to really try for the last 100000 swing voters that will decide the state. sure the may only need to pick up a tenth of that to win west virginia, but they get less than a tenth of the electoral votes as a reward.
what the electoral college does is localize the campaign. not just to the biggest states, although it is biased more that way than the other, but to all the agreed upon battleground states. each camp claims they own certain states, that they might win certain others, and that they can't win the rest. their lists are very similar and i would guess 30 states see little or no campagning for the presidential election. is this a bad thing? i, for one, see way more of this bullshit than i'd like and i live in one uncontested state (md) and go to school in another (ny). but i would bet it does alienate politically interested people in those 30 states. whatever. i dont care who votes or who wins or what they do.
so, rick, ya wanna rumble? ya know, i gots me a posse on the left coast too. no one messes with the sharks.
scott
lower case scott,
I think George Will might be overmatched here. You have a lot of insite in a perverse sort of way and you are not even a dork. Too bad your libido and Jessica Alba get in the way of using your great mind for the benifet of humanity. But I still don't want to rumble. Like Jim Brier, I want you to post more often on the other forums and help us starving poker players stay alive.
Regards,
Rick
jeez, rick. you're so nice you won't even play fight. aight. i withdraw offer to rumble.
as for humanity, i do not think they will accept my help. while not my exact sentiments, i am reminded of indigo montoya's "i am only waiting around to kill you." and i am not even sure if i'd promise to wait until they reached the top.
man, i'm 19. what does everyone expect in the libido department? by the way, miss alba is 19 too. can't be a coincidence. she belongs to me.
scott
Here are two links to an image of the controversial Palm Beach County ballot where Pat Buchanan received 3407 votes far more than any other county reported for Buchanan. Palm Beach is supposedly a Democratic Party stonghold.
http://cnews.tribune.com/news/image/0,1119,oso-nation-82373,00.html
The second link is to the story about the controversy. This 3407 votes could swing the election to Gore.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20001108/ts/eln_florida_ballot_confusion.html
Or follow simple instructions. I've seen that ballot, which was approved by a DEMOCRAT official on behalf of bluehairs who said the type was too small on the originals, and only a moron would have a problem with it.
Sure, it looks stupid and is a bit confusing, but must everything in this country be spoonfed and have a safety net?
And what are the wrinklies scared of, anyway? Dub won't cut SS one penney and he'll give away just as much free Rx as Gore would've, when the time comes.
Bummer, Al, but it's payback for what happened to Nixon in Chcago, '60.
For those of you interested in the misprinted ballots that may have caused people in Palm Beach to vote for Buchanan instead of Gore, it looks like this will cost Gore the election.
The predicted vote for Buchanan in Palm Beach was about 1200 votes, he recieved about 3500. Looking at a regression of all the Florida counties of actual vote for Buchanan vs. preducted vote, Palm Beach is a HUGE outlier.
The difference in the election is right there. It turns out that enough Floridians did vote for Gore, but enough of them punhced the wrong hole to throw off the election.
This was because Buchanan was on a different page, but his space to punch was in between the spaces to punch for Bush and Gore, so on the ballot Bush was listed first along with the space to punch for him, Gore was listed second, but you had to punch the third box because the second box was for Buchanan who was listed on a second page.
Many voters saw Gore's name second and punched the second box. Some of them realized this and reported it back to election officials before it was known that the state was so close. The discrepency between actual and predicted votes for Buchanan shows that this did happen.
So, it looks like Gore will be held out of office due to some misprinted ballots. It is a shame that the presidency will be decided by this.
I don't know if there is basis for legal challenge.
If anyone wants the stats on this email me and I will send you a word file with the graph and additional information. If you know how to post the graph on this forum, please let me know.
Paul Talbot
http://moule.phrozen.org/palmbeach.doc
A link showing the controversial ballot is here: http://cnews.tribune.com/news/image/0,1119,oso-nation-82373,00.html
There are arrows on the ballot that CLEARLY point to the proper hole. Anyone who claims the ballots were confusing or misleading is an idiot.
Anyone who actually did vote for the wrong person, not being able to follow the arrows is definately an idiot.
..how hard can it be to punch the right hole?
Morons. How perfect, Gore not only won the popular vote, but he ACTUALLY ~WON~ the electoral vote, too.
I guess the people in Florida got too excited about all of Al's new gov't program proposals to fill out their ballots right.
Too bad for Al he couldn't carry his home state... :)
Anyone who actually did vote for the wrong person, not being able to follow the arrows is definately an idiot.
That was my first thought too. But consider that the REASON that they put this on two pages was that they have a large older constituency and they wanted to use a larger font. So maybe not an idiot. Maybe just near-sighted. And the last time I checked, near-sighted people have the same rights to vote in a fair election as the rest of us.
It's really very interesting watching history being made. They are going to be teaching kids about this election in civics classes for the next hundred years, whatever the final outcome.
David
It goes something like this(only except with the holes lined up right):
Bush #3-------o
o---------#4 Gore
Buchanan#5------o
How hard can it be? The numbers and corresponding holes were in the right order. Gore shouldn't be allowed in office if his supporters are that stupid.
It should have Gore and Buchanan's names switched.
..apparently at the request of seniors because the type was too small, having all the names on the same page.
Ballot also was apparently approved by a Democrat official.
V'04:
A FL state rep said they were approved by Dem officials.
Moreover, Buchanan has garnered similar numbers from Palm Beach county in past primaries and popular elections.
Jon I.
Jeez,
Okay, listen. It makes no difference who approved the ballot design. Because it was approved by some party hack who's kinda feeble when it comes to judging ballot design means those who are confused by the design because of poor sight, old age, or whatever should have their votes tossed?
So we can their votes and Bush becomes president despite the fact that Gore took the popular vote, AND apparently the electoral vote as well?
First president to sleaze into office on a technicality?
I just watched Brian williams and Chris Mathews give the latest recount results. Half the counties done and Gore picked up 1000 votes closing the gap to about 700. What's going on. I heard one officila explain that sometimes the ballots don't get counted because there is a problem with the perforation? What only with Gore's? Whassup? Jeb bush - Is he related to George by any chance? Hmmm...smelly fishy.
vince
Jeb is W's lil' brother. Apparently, there are 1000 Jewish Floridians in Israel who sent in absentee ballots, mostly for Gore, as predicted.
http://sightings.com/general5/sca.htm
I just saw this on CNN.com.
"Congressman Robert Wexler, a Florida Democrat, says 19,000 votes in Palm Beach County were disqualified because of a faulty ballot. Details soon. "
I believe this has to do with Florida's law saying that ballot holes must be to the RIGHT of the candidates' names.
Boyoboyoboy. If they allow that county to re-vote, Gore'll obviously win, based on the wacky Buchanan numbers. W, Jeb 'n Poppy will go beyond thermonuclear. But can they just throw 19K ballots in the dumpster? Any Florida lawyers here?
Rehnquist better get ready. This thing is an absolute debacle. The local official who approved that ballor redesign oughta be shot on GP, even though I want W to win.
Ventura04,
I can't believe the ballots are not standardized state wide. But the whole voting process is a mess and we need to take a serious look at it.
Regards,
Rick
PS With you here who needs to check CNN or the TV :-)
Here's the link.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/ELECTION_WatchdogPart6001108.html
If even half the stuff alleged is true, this is a nat'l disgrace. Voting needs to go on the Internet immediately.
.
Because we all know that Internet voting is tamper-proof...
If Florida law is anything like Wisconsin law, a ballot that contains more than one vote for a position (like president) is disqualified -- plain and simple. See Wis. Stat. § 7.5.
Jon I.
There WON'T be a reelection those ballots are junk PERIOD - it happens all the time ballots of idiots who don't know wnat they are doing.
The recount is the key if Bush holds he wins if not then we have 4 years of socialism and sleaze.
Pretty simple.
Not pretty simple. By Florida law the layout of those ballots was illegal.
Florida election law does not allow "butterfly" type ballots (two facing pages with the punch holes inbetween). Florida law further stipulates that the punches must be to the RIGHT of a candidates name. Florida law also required that Gore be listed second on the ballot. That his punch hole was third may be in violation.
There is plenty to contest about the issue. The 19,000 in the muck raise the total number of voters who may have been misled by the ballots to about 5% of the county. This is not insignificant. Law suits have already been filed. Whatever the outcome, we probably wont know it today.
Paul Talbot
Paul;
Are you certain of your statements regarding Florida's ballot law? That seems like very specific knowledge. Are you an attorney in Florida?
Nobody seemed confused when they used these ballots last election. Or when they printed them in local newspapers for the public's review.
This is a farce. I live in downtown Chicago, and my ballot was AT LEAST as confusing. It was a butterfly, alternating hole ballot, with far more names (the judges' retention election spanned both the right and left side of several pages.
How do you know the same ballots were used last election in Florida? The ballots where I'm from differ every election.
How do you know voters have not been confused before? If they were, it would be natural to make no issue of it when the vote is not close.
fox preempted dark angel to show election coverage.
what a sad state of affairs. fox couldn't take the heat they got after not carrying the debates so cowtowed to the man and convered the stupid election. why would anyone watch fox news when the are covering the exact same thing that the other boring networks are covering? fox can't possibly compete with the real networks in arena of credibility and journalism. why fight a losing battle? just show something funny or with jessica alba in it. i understand not wanting to waste a new episode on a likely small audience, but if they ran a rerun of dark angel or a mini simpsons marathons they would still get tons of us apathetics. if you just do something that no one else is doing you are bound to get some good results. if you do the same thing everyone else is, you better be the best or you're beat.
if i ever ran a network i wouldn't show news. ever. not unless we had the best news cast on the air. the news is the same on every channel. i'd let all the real networks fight for the 50 million that care and i'll take the 20 million that don't.
scott
The really "sad state of affairs" is that someone with your intellectual gifts is wasting themselves watching television. Do you have any idea how many hold-em problems we have posted on this forum that scream for brilliant answers like yours? Think of the thousands of dollars that is being lost every day in hold-em because players simply don't know what to do! It is a national tragedy but you could be part of the solution! Once I found out about the 2+2 forum I immediately disconnected my cable TV. You should do the same and dedicate your idle hours to helping those less fortunate than yourself. You could start small by just answering one post on each of the poker forums each day. By the way, have we elected a new president yet?
warning. not funny. at least i dont think so. actually i am pretty sure.
i dont even have a tv. i watch with friends socially. and i have minimal access to cable.
i cut back on posting for a few reasons. one, i no longer have time to read the entire board or even entire threads. recently i have all but stopped reading the poker forums entirely. two, i kept seeing the same things argued over and over again. there were less and less problems where i was making a point that was new to me or even to the particular thread. three, and i am not proud of this reason, i was getting less out of it. i would imagine several posters, yourself included, must feel similarly. are ye not tired of preflop questions?
i'd rather give laughter than insight. but i'll try to do both. one post a day on every forum. well, not internet, stock, or sports. whatever the top thread is when i check, i'll answer it.
scott
Stick to insight. Leave the laughter to people who are sort of funny. (There would normally be an emoticon at the end of this post but I know how you detest them.)
:-) (oops)
Regarding the election is that the whole world is laughing its ass off (as you would say) over your collective and individual incompetence.
Go USA !
Andy.
As it should be, I reckon.
Still, consider that we haven't had any riots or anything and this whole matter will resolve itself peacefully (eventually). And everyone will ultimately accept whoever is president and the country will carry on pretty much as before. I think most people here regard the whole matter more as an interesting historical event than as a scandal.
The system works - we ought to get some credit for that.
David
we laugh at all of you every day of every year. stupid foriegners. with your gibberish languages and/or funny accents. and your haircuts! and tight fitting male bathing suits. and your gin. (is there a worse alcohol? i don't think so. maybe zima, but for entirely different reasons.)
go usa!
scott
.
i missed my connexion to the theatre.
scott
BUT, Andy, can you pronounce "aluminum" correctly? Well?
John F.(eeney)
Scott,
I was with you until you started knocking the tight-fitting male bathing suits...heh
x
nah, just kidding. He's allllllllllllllllll right.
secretariat
You say we're incompetent. And, yet, we're number one. What does that say about the rest of the world?
we're number one. we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one we're number one
damn right.
scott
WE ARE SO SMART WE ARE SO SMART WE ARE SO SMART S-M-R-T we are so smart
a.
If I had asked a peasant in Communist Russia who was number one, he would have said USSR ! USSR !
Or was he a victim of propaganda ?
Andy.
/
.
/
Hey I hate to admit but Andy is right, this election is an embarrassment to this country. We've only seen the beginning of the controversy which will unfold over the coming years I suspect. Here are some things to consider
-- Bush is leading by only 800 or so votes. I suspect when the recount is over Bush will be ahead by 500 votes.
-- 19000 votes were disqualified in Palm Beach County. A county that went heavily to Gore. Yeah I know people should know they can't vote for 2 candidates but the perception will remain with many that Gore got jobbed. Hey I voted for Bush.
-- The ballot controversy in Palm Beach County where both parties have already given their spin on the situation. It remains to be seen what the courts will do about it. On one hand there are claims that the ballot is clearly illegal and on the other hand there is apparent legal precedent for upholding the vote.
-- Gore got more votes than Bush did overall.
-- No matter which candidate wins the loser will leave no stone unturned trying to get the results overturned.
-- If Bush prevails there will be a lot of folks that feel that they got ripped off. I think that this situation has the potential to be very divisive.
Come on Tom, an election, divisive, no way.
What isn't embarrassing about this situation is that come Jan 20th there will be a smooth transfer of power to a new president, whomever that may be. It is the durability of the system, the ability to take a few hits and still remain strong enough to withstand the blows but flexible enouh to allow one in a million shots to occur without breaking. We should be proud of our system. It's 211 years old and no one has improved upon it yet.
I'm probably over reacting but your sentiment expressed in the post "Take it down, Gore" I believe is shared by many. I'm concerned that the perception that Gore has been treated unfairly and was robbed of the election will alienate many if Bush prevails. On the other hand, if Gore wins as a ramification of a court order of some sort, I believe that Bush will go looking for more votes in other close elections. All of this could be a long drawn out process and I fear that our system where orderly transitions of government have been the norm may not be so orderly this time.
Sorry SammyB I attributed a statement made by SmoothB to you SammyB. What a gaffe!!!
A lot of people make that mistake because we have the same last name.
Bush doesn't even want to be President. He is a goofus. I would love him for a neighbor, but as President....
He is not crafty eouugh. Gore is sneaky, smart experienced and crafty.
So, Gore won the election but still might not be President.
Imagine, elderly Jewish voters actually voting for Pat Buchanan.....That would be like African Americans in Alabama voting for Lester Maddox.
With 5 counties to go Bush is ahead by a miniscule 341 votes. Even Buchanen came out today and said that the vast majority of the Palm Beach County votes he received were intended for Gore and not him. Pat did no campaigning in that county. I must admit at this point that if Bush wins it will be at least somewhat tainted (the understatement of the year). I think a revote is crazy but you never know.
Seems like Gore is letting the cocky Bush wrestle the election from him. Bush makes election grabbing statements like 'I believe we've won' while Gore says 'It is important the process is allowed to carry through expeditiously' or some such wishy-washy dribble. Gore seems to suggest he won't permit court challenges in Florida or push for a re-vote to allow those confused Floridians to redirect their votes away from Buchanon.
(I heard an interesting news story that Pat Buchanon has admitted most of his votes in the Florida county in question probably were meant for Gore. Apparently he also considers Gore the lessor of two evils.)
Whimpy or ethical ? From what I gather, Gore is coming out of this mess with more credit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the boot was on the other foot, wouldn't Bush & Co be firing lawsuits off all over the place ?
Andy.
some say Rivchard Nixon's finest moment was when he didnt challenge the Chicago results in the 1960 election (which cost him the race). There was definately some fraud there. He took the high road, as is Al Gore. Figures in this day and age some moron would call him "wimpy".
And the result of Nixon's "finest moment" was LBJ, and all the horrors he perpetrated.
Then, eight years later, Nixon finally gets in and proceeds to make a burning shambles of it.
The real reason, IMO, that Nixon gave in was that he had been good friends w/JFK in their early Senate days, he had always admired JFK's charisma and glamour, and he probably trusted him as President more than anyone except himself.
JFK was hardly the progressive, populist, bleeding heart socialist that the Clinton crowd and media likes to paint him as. Both men in fact were early supporters of McCarthy's commie hunts! A great book was written about Nixon and JFK last year; the name escapes me.
Anyway, Nixon shoulda looked at the name below JFK's on the ballot, then done what was best for himself. Goes to show the uselessness and tragic results of phony, misguided altruism. The way things turned out could not have been worse for Nixon, as well as the country. It always happens that way when you deny yourself for others, hoping that someone else will deny themselves for you at a later time.
Back to Gore, he'll be filing lawsuit after lawsuit soon enough.
Ventura94,
If you remember the name of that book please email it to me or post it. You might be interested in the column by Richard Reeves I printed above under the "SoberThoughts" thread. He wrote a great book on Kennedy and is working on a Nixon book.
Regards,
Rick
mr nebiolo (aliases include big narc),
not only do you often reply in letter form, you also almost always sign off "regards." this post comes after narc's alleged last post and is signed "rick." i think it is pretty clear who is whom in this little charade.
regards,
scott
... _Gumshoe_ by Josiah Thompson. It's really good. It's about his experiences as a philosophy professor turned private detective.
Heh. Signing off, "Rick" *is kind of a hint. We'll have to work with Rick on staying in disguise... unless someone is MASQUERADING as Mr. Nebiolo. Hmmm.
we have the following clues.
rick lives in la. rick is bad at sleeping. rick cuts his own hair. rick plays poker.
all we have to do is find someone who does all these things but isnt rick and we will have our culprit.
scott
That is my point. If Bush were in Gore's position he'd pursue the election through every option. Gore's complacency just makes him look like a pushover that doesn't deserve to win. In fact he doesn't deserve to win except Bush is such a horrible alternative.
nt
Everyone must remember that this election, the recount, and any non-civil rights-related litigation will be handled according to FLORIDA law. With that it mind, check out:
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel110900.shtml
I haven't checked the caselaw cited, but the quote from the decision appears self-explanatory.
Jon I.
.
This situation is unprecented. In the Nixon/Kennedy election we did not have access to data as we do today. Nothing could be done then. This election is still in serious doubt. Had Bush won the popular vote, the issue would probably be settled in the "spirit of the law" if it even came down to that. However, there are some serious questions, and the results are not that clear. My opinion is that no definitive decision will be reached for at least a week to 10 days. It ain't over yet.
So, as Harvey Kietel said to Jimmy and the boys in Pulp Fiction as they were apparently successfully disposing of the body,
"It ain't time to .......each other's.....just yet"
Well, you know what he said
Ratso,
This article addressed the discrete issue of how to handle the Palm Beach debacle. There is precedent for that. How things are handled nationwide is a separate matter.
Jon I.
I just read the case, and there is some good language for W, but there are some bad facts.
First, the case was brought by candidates who thought their equal protection rights were violated by poor positioning on the ballot. To overturn the result and hold a new election, the court held, the plaintiffs would have to show a reasonable probability that the results of the election would have changed but for the irregularities.
The trial court heard testimony from fifty or so voters who said they were "confused," but all but one of the witnesses testified that with a reasonable effort, they were able to sort it out and find the proper choice. I think because of this fact, the court refused to order a new election.
Unfortunately, there will likely be testimony from several Gore supporters saying that they actually voted for the wrong guy. Since the race is so close, the Gore suporters may be able to show a reasonable probability that the result of the election would have changed.
That is bad.
What's good, IMO, is that the remedy that will likely be sought -- a revote -- will unfairly prejudice Bush because the revoters will have knowledge of both (a) the closeness of the race; and (b) the importance of the Nader factor. That is, an externality of a new-county wide vote would be that every single Nader supporter would vote for Gore.
That would be extremely unfair, since the revoters would be armed with information that no other voters had (for instance, if registered Bush supporters knew it was going to be this close, perhaps more would have voted in places like Wisconsin, Iowa and Oregon).
Given this likely prejudice, and given the fact that those who accidentally voted for Buchannan are simply idiots (Gore got a substantial number of votes using this ballot), it would be a terrible injustice to hold a new election in Palm Beach.
Some points:
1) This primary election cited in that article differs from this case. Their contention was that the POSITIONING ON THE BALLOT caused them to receive fewer votes. At issue was whether or not positioning them last on the ballot did indeed cause them to receive fewer votes. Out of 50 people, only 1 person said that they voted incorrectly as a result of the positioning on the ballot.
2) In Gore's case, a clear case will be made that the ILLEGAL design ITSELF, IE the 2 collumn format, and NOT the positioning, led to confusion and people voting for the wrong candidate.
There is a LOT of evidence to support this. Buchannan received votes at three times his rate nationwide in a district that is a Democratic stronghold, and with a very large elderly Jewish population! How on earth could 3000 elderly liberal Jews vote for Buchannan??? It is beyond comprehension! That will be solid evidence to support the fact that votes were, in fact, cast incorrectly beacuse of the illegal format of the ballot.
In short, although it is entirely possible that this case might be cited as precedent, it probably will not be that important.
-SmoothB-
There are 19,000 registered members of the Reform Part and Independence Party in Palm Beach County. Buchanan was listed as the candidate for the Reform Party and Independent Party in Palm Beach County.
But that's just my opinion. Your scientific, racist analysis that there is no way 3000 elderly Jews would vote for Buchanan is probably more valid.
Um, well, according to some of the news reports I've seen, Buchanan received more votes in this district than he did in most other places nationwide in the previous election. While it does seem clear that he received more than expected, and that at least some errors occurred, it is by no means clear that most of the votes he received in Palm Beach were in error.
Of course, maybe the news reports I heard were mistaken. The news people have been making quite a few mistakes with respect to this election.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think you're right about the case I cited above, but nobody is contesting the two column ballot, at least the complaint filed today did not. The plaintiffs stated something to the effect that the names were properly listed, which is probably a judicial admission against your point.
http://www.theonion.com/onion3640/bush_or_gore.html
This is the only article I've seen that really tells it like it is. The honesty is so refreshing it actually brought a tear to my eye.
David
Anyone know of a casino in or near NH?
Thanks.
Yes, Vince's Place on the North Shore of Massachusetts.
However, instead of pretty cocktail waitresses to serve you drinks you will have to settle for a bald middle-aged Italian tossing you a beer, and you must be willing to play five-cent/ten-cent limit.
Montreal if you live in northern NH.
What really troubled me about being informed of Bush's DUI conviction is this: When I read the headline in the paper, "BUSH CONVICTED OF DUI IN 1976!", I was flooded with images from the pre-election coverage. There was Bush, huge smile on his face, having been touted as the "accessible candidate" by his campaign staff, pushing the drink cart down his campaign jet aisle to personally fix drinks for the reporters that were flying with him to his campaign stops. I was outraged that a man that has a conviction of DUI on his record, (and think how powerful the evidence in that DUI case must have been if Daddy and his cronies couldn't weild enough power to thwart a conviction)would be so insensitive as to play the merry barmaid and serve alcohol to others. It underscored an inherent fault that I believe lies in Bush...poor analytical development. I don't believe the man has good judgment capabilities and I think this is proven again and again..this being just one incident. And this is a man that, if elected, will have the power to nominate Supreme Court Justices to the highest Court in the Free World. *shiver*
I have been calling Dubya the "Clueless Cheerleader." I think I like your handle better.
OBTW, The elder Shrubs, Carters, Fords, and Clintons will be dining tonight together to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the White House. Won't you love to eavesdrop on the resulting dinner chatter?
Gore is taking this one down. It is obvious now.
1) The ballots in Palm Beach have been determined to be illegal under Florida state law. If there is a recount there Gore will win the election. But even if there ISN'T a recount...
2) Gore may win in the recount alone. He is down by only 400 votes now. 1000 votes from Jewish Floridians in Israel have not yet been counted.
3) If nothing can be decided before the electoral college meets, Gore must win. Florida will be forced to split its vote in the electoral college, and even if they give 13 to Bush and 12 to Gore, Gore wins.
This is a good thing because it would sicken me if the people of this country can't even have the president that they voted for.
-SmoothB-
smoothie, you may wish to consult a lawyer or other expert before you bet on any of these.
>1) The ballots in Palm Beach have been determined to >be illegal under Florida state law. If there is a >recount there Gore will win the election.
They have? That's funny, because I haven't heard that any Court has made such a decision. It may be that these ballots are contrary to state law, but they were approved by representatives of the two major parties. Even if they are contrary to state law, that doesn't mean that a judge will rule then illegal, and even if this happens, it doesn't mean a judge will require there to be a new election for this county. A judge could easily say these ballots were illegal, don't ever do it again, but this election stands.
>2) Gore may win in the recount alone. He is down by >only 400 votes now. 1000 votes from Jewish >Floridians in Israel have not yet been counted.
The news has reported that in past Florida elections, the overseas ballots have been very much in favor of the Republican candidates. Thus, if it is still very close with only these ballots remaining to determine the outcome, Bush will likely win.
>3) If nothing can be decided before the electoral >college meets, Gore must win. Florida will be forced >to split its vote in the electoral college, and even >if they give 13 to Bush and 12 to Gore, Gore wins.
Why will Florida be forced to split it's vote? This may be correct, but I've never heard of such a provision before. You can be sure that whatever lawsuits get filed, each Court and each judge will move the case to the top of the docket, and make sure that a decision is rendered before the college meets.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I really don't like your attitude. I get the feeling that you are a person that I would not like very much if I knew you.
By the way, I'm not a lawyer, but I *AM* in my third year of law school. It makes me laugh my ass off when stupid people off the street, like you, say things to me like
'smoothie, you may wish to consult a lawyer or other expert before you bet on any of these. '
I don't give you advice on how to screw your mother, do I?
The fact is that Gore deserves to win, and he is going to win. You can stomp around and do all the name calling you want, but nothing is going to change the fact that Bush is a nobody and he is never going to be president.
It makes me thoroughly embarrased that Bush readily admits that he 'wandered' for 20 years before finally setting down and becomming an (unsuccessful) businessman and getting his life together.
I suppose 'wandering' is another word for snorting coke and jet setting around the world with his friends from the club on daddy's money.
-SmoothB-
hahahahahahahahaha
Nice Labcoat!!!!!!!
SmoothB, you often make valid points, but sheesh - chill out dude.
>I really don't like your attitude.
What attitude does fossilman have? He was wondering where you got your information, and expressed the fact that everything is still very much in doubt.
>I don't give you advice on how to screw your mother, do I?
Sure it is hyperbole, but still - in this exchange you come off as the one with the bad attidude, so go get some sleep and try to lay off the personal attacks.
SmoothB is his own worst enemy.
SmoothB wrote: >I really don't like your attitude. I get the feeling >that you are a person that I would not like very much >if I knew you.
Well, so far, the feeling is mutual.
>By the way, I'm not a lawyer, but I *AM* in my third >year of law school. It makes me laugh my ass >off when stupid people off the street, like you, say >things to me
How nice, your third year. I finished my third year of law school almost 9 years ago. So much for your "people-off-the-street" theory. lol. As for the stupid comment, give it up. As for "say things to me", just be glad anyone is saying anything to you, since you really seem to be lacking in social skills and maturity. Please notice who started the insults here.
>I don't give you advice on how to screw your mother, >do I?
No need to do it myself, I'm sure our regular group of posters can easily respond to this one on their own, and come up with much more variety than me.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
the following people are morons:
smoothb, smoothb's mother, smoothb's grandmother, any and all of smoothb's elementary school teachers (i am assuming what he calls "law school" is in fact elementary school.), and smoothb.
that is all. good luck with the dodgeball, smoothie.
scott
There are so many worthy targets on this Forum but it seems the true lowlifes take aim at the people who have garnered the most respect, have helped the most people, have shown the most civility and can generally pound their detractors into a puld with the fewest words.
SmoothB, dislike someone else, Greg is way out of your league. So are Rick, Vince, skp, Louie, Jim, Mason, DS, scott, Abdul, Izmet, Ray, Chris Alger, Chris Villalobos, David Steele, Scott Wyler, Rounder, Andy Fox, Bob Morgan, M, Tommy, Doc, docriver and everyone else except, of course, your mother.
"I don't give you advice on how to screw your mother, do I? "
I do not appreciate reading this kind of disgusting talk here on anywhere else for that matter. Unless you apologize and agree never to talk to anyone here in this manner again, I, for one, will never again open another post of yours.
Vince
Posted by: scott (sms134@columbia.edu)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 November 2000, at 5:36 p.m.
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 November 2000, at 6:55 p.m.
Posted by: Vince Lepore (leporeva@hotmail.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 9 November 2000, at 7:18 p.m.
I heard a prediction today that Bush would end up WINNING the popular vote after all the absentee ballots in the various states were counted. Just out of curiosity, if this does happen, would your position that the winner of the popular vote deserves to be he president remain the same?
He won't answer that now that there is an element of doubt. 200k absentee ballots from Arizona Over 100k in Washington, 20k from Colorado and nearly a million in the San Diego area of California, where absentee voting usually leans GOP.
Wow, you 'Mericans are at least passionate about your politics, I'll grant you that!
For those of y'all whose world view stops at the border, there is a Canadian election coming up on Nov.27th. One thing I will guarantee is that there will be NO sudden death recounts in this one; at least not to determine the next President, er, Prime Minister. At last count, Chretien at about a 2:1 lead in the polls over the rest of the herd.
On the 28th, maybe skp and I can make 1 or 2 posts about something or other interesting about our election, or maybe even we could drag Dan Hanson out of his self-imposed exile for some sort of Canadian equivalent comments George Will- style. Dan, I know you're lurking, what do you say? Should be a pretty short thread in any event.
Debate on tv tonight but I doubt that I can watch it...my 3 month old son has monopolized the idiot box...he wont stop screaming until we put on MuchMusic for him...go figure.
Just got 4.0 version of Turbo Texas Holdum and I can not load it. I am running windows 3.1 and would like to know if anyone has any ideas about how i can get it loaded. Thanks.
holdem is spelled with an 'e'. apparently you bought a counterfiet version.
scott
Jim must be all aglow now, you posting machine, you.
To the original poster: try emailing TTH supposrt.
Scott's post on the General Theory forum today was pure genius. Anyone who hasn't seen it should check it out. Keep up the good work, Scott.
Gore has no one to blame but his own democratic machine should he lose this election. The democrats were given copies of the ballot beforehand and it is plain as the nose on Gore's face that the ballot was improper and misleading. Why didnt they insist that the ballot be changed so that there would be no confusion???? I heard one of the democrats down there say they did object. Well they should have done more than object. They should have sought an injunction to stop that ballot from being presented in that misleading form to the voters on election day. At the very least, the should have educated their voters on HOW the ballot was confusing and show them exactly what they had to do if their intention was to cast a vote for Gore and Lieberman.
Just because a democrat approves a ballot that is illegal under Florida state law, that doesn't mean jack. Has it ever occurred to anyone that there is a POSSIBILITY that just ONE democrat overseer could be anti-Gore? Or on the take by Republicans? I am not saying this was the case, but the POSSIBILITY exists and the outcome of the entire election cannot reasonably rest on such minutia.
The fact is that the ballot was illegal under Florida law. No one disputes this. The ineptitude of that overseer does not change the fact that the ballot is illegal, and that issue must be dealt with.
-SmoothB-
What this proves is that many of the democrats are just to stupid and not very visual. This is why they like government to do their thinking for them. I know you liberals have to have something to cry about.
Omar
That's funny that you say that democrats are stupid. Have you ever seen a demographic breakdown between republicans and democrats? Democrats, on average, are better educated than republicans. A higher percentage of college graduates are democrat than republican.
If democrats are stupid, what does that make republicans? Most republicans are fall into one of the following categories:
1) Old money - and they want to keep it.
2) Buisness owners - you don't need a college degree to own your own truck, or your own auto body shop
3) White trash - bible thumping - gun toting - red neck - beer drinking - wife beating - trailer trash.
4) This is the one that kills me - people that want to support tax cuts to the rich because, even though they have no money now, they KNOW they are going to be rich someday.
Studies have shown that a large percentage of lower middle class people actually believe that they will become affluent one day. Some of these people cling to this dream and vote republican. Many of them also resent people on welfare because they work hard for their 8 bucks and hour and hate poor people who spend their hard earned money on crack.
What these people are too ignorant to realize is that, sure, republicans want to screw these welfare recipients over, but they ALSO want to screw over the working stiff!
-SmoothB-
"Have you ever seen a demographic breakdown between republicans and democrats? Democrats, on average, are better educated than republicans. A higher percentage of college graduates are democrat than republican. "
This just isn't true SmoothB. The democrats contend for power largely because they have the bottom 25% of the income spectrum locked up and they do well enough with the middle class. Thsi constituency tends to have less eductaion as a group. If you needed a bachelors to vote, the Republicans would win with ease.
However, if you needed a PhD, the democratic party would win in a landslide.
Paul Talbot
and his name rhymes with oothb.
scott
you are obviously genetically superior.
we jews are pretty damn smart.
it's probably only partly genetics, though. my parents taught me to read when i was a child. smoothb has to hire a hobo to read to him.
scott
Yes, I noticed how many Jews got suckered into voting for Buchanan. They are clearly conspiring now to overturn my coronation.I'm glad to know that there are other converts, and bigots out there that support Austin Texas uber alles. Oh, you still can't come to my country club in Texas, or Kennebuckport.
just know then after you kick all of us out your country we will go build some other country a super weapon that will, if needed, destroy you.
scott
Out of curiosity, why do you associate liberals with those who support or are members of the Democratic Party? The only group that hates Clinton and his New Democrats more than the far right is the liberal left. Liberals feel betrayed by Clinton. If liberals voted with their hearts and not to win, Nader would have polled much higher than he did.
Do you know any liberals (by their own definition not yours) who are honestly happy with Clinton and think that Gore will work for their interests? I don't. Clinton killed the liberal wing of the Democratic Party.
Paul Talbot
That is true. The conservatives really won in the 80s and continue to win. The socialists no longer play a part in making the Democrats platform.
said it any better myself. Bleeding heart liberals couldn't do anything without complaining about something.
Wrong, 3L, under Florida law, it means a great deal. Check out this language:
"A person who does not avail himself of the opportunity of object to irregularities in the ballot prior to the election may not object to such irregularties thereafter." Nelson v. Robinson, App. 2 Dist., 301 So.2d 508 (Fla. 1974), certiorari denied, 303 So.2d 21.
Second, the ballot is not a facial violation of the statute, which you should read before you open your cakehole.
The position of the names did conform to the requirements. Check out the complaint on CNN's page. The gravamen of the complaint was that the holes corresponding to the names were not in order. The statute doesn't have any requirement for that. The talking head who said that the punch-holes need to appear to the right of a candidates name quoted a law that applies to paper ballots only. The requirements for a voting machine (which I think the punch ballot is, or else all Florida punch ballots are illegal, according to the statute) are more liberal, allowing some variation "as is practical."
enough of your legalese. just give it to me in plain english. woah! slowdown, egghead. oh yeah? come 'ere a minute.
scott
God liberals are so fucking stupid! They can't even figure out a ballot with arrows showing EXACTLY what to do????????????????????????????How hard is that? And they say that Bush isn't smart? I'm sure he as well as anybody with one ounce of sense could figure out something as simple as a ballot. I wish these fuckers would get a life and quit blaming their total idiocy on other people. Geez this whole thing is so outlandish that I don't even want to think about it.
So Goat,
You're right..I don't believe there are 23,000 plus people in Palm Beach County alone that are so confused as to not be able to comprehend how to perforate the ballot ONCE next to Gore's name. So, how long do you think it took good ole' boy Brother Jeb to DOUBLE-PUNCH 23,000 ballots anyway??? I distinctly recall a band-aid on his right index finger the next morning..*giggle*
This is all a plan by Clinton to keep himself in office forever. There are going to be endless lawsuits filed which will take years, with appeals, to resolve. This will delay the appointment of either Bush or Gore, enabling Clinton to remain in office. All hail King Clinton!!!!
dah
If there is no decision in the electoral college, Clinton doesn't stay, the House of Representatives chooses the president. If they are deadlocked it goes to the Senate where a 2/3 majority is needed. if that fails then the order of succession takes over. The House Speaker gets the job. If he refuses (no wanting to walk into a fire).... it goes to old man Strom! After that the current cabinet (Albright can't take office though as she is foreign born).
I know there's four. 3/4 of state legislatures is one, what are the other three?
The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate.
AP's latest report is Bush's lead is down to 341 with about 450,000 votes left to count...
I know that you all are reading this to examine another Vince Lepore error. Sorry to disapooint you but Vince isn't the only "Lepore" capable of making big mistakes.
Theresa Lepore is the democrat who "approved" the controversial ballot. Her position, Supervisor of Elections. The following is quoted from the title page of "Candidate TIPS 2000 Information package" created by Theresa Lepore, June 2000.
Dear Candidate
.....
This PACKET is to be used as a reference tool in conjunction with the Election Code (Chapters 99 thru 106 of the Florida Statutes) and the information distributed by the Division of Elections in allahassee.
I urge you to read this and the other material that you will be provided and take the time to acquaint yourself and your campaign staff with the Election Laws.
Election Law violations can be detrimental to you and your campaign. Although most violations are unintentional, all could be avoided.
No candidate relishes the publicity that comes with a violation during a campaign.
If you have any questions regarding the Election Law, I urge you to contact me. It is easier to take the time to ask a question if you are not sure than to try to “fix” an error.
....
Sincerly,
Theresa Lepore
I would guess that since she offers to help the various candidates with legal issues she should be familar with election issues and Florida law. So why did she approve the ballot.
My guess is that most of the Democrats are looking for a free-roll. If they win accept the results, if they loose then find/create reasons to find flaws.
http://www.iwon.com/home/news/news_article/0,11746,72187|top|11-09-2000::19:09|reuters,00.html
Power to the people.
Damn! After all this crap of the last few days I'm really gonna miss Clinton>
Come back, Shane!
Hi everyone. I realize that times are very exciting right now, but this is a reminder to remember to be civil to each other and watch the foul language.
Thanks, Mason
but you haven't won the war
Maniac
Mark,
I'm completely in agreement with Mason here. The Exchange/Other Topics forum has become a fun place to share ideas and banter with the many poker players who post here. By participating we get to know each other better as people (for example, if you ever heard ray zee’s New Jersey accent you would never believe he lives in the woods and wrestles bears).
However, I know Mason is not the only one offended by the recent increase in extremely foul language. The minor stuff is OK (I doubt that Mason would censer the occasional use of the word for the “male member” now that the forum is established), but keep the real disgusting stuff in the locker room where it belongs. We should try to show the world that poker players can be a civil and respectable group with ideas that transcend poker.
Regards,
Rick
Couldn't agree more, Rick. Of course, living in a country where school kids have Miss Manners and PolitenessMan signature backpacks, it's sometimes hard to put up with how poorly we treat each other sometimes.
I admire the passion; just elevate the rhetoric.
Passion, absolutely. Let's keep the discussion civil, however. We should post in a manner that encourages lively exchanges, in such a fashion that we could continue the talk in a public place. Freedom of speech implies the responsibility to keep vulgarity out of the discussion; also, keep the ad hominem attacks to yourself.
Maniac Mark- You idiot! Why don't you respect Masons wishes. Without him this forum wouldn't even exist.
I will no longer use profanity here, (even though it is a natural part of my vocabulary) and I apologize to Mason and those who were offended. Later, Kris Punksnotdead
Usage of a lot of foul language is usually because the speaker/writer can't find more appropriate words--it is a filler, in a sense. The harder it is for someone to find the right words, the more likely they are to use filler words, whether these words are foul or not.
Unfortunately, I occasionally use foul language when I speak, but I feel it is a low-grade thing to do and unnecessary. I almost shudder after I use it, not because it really offends me, but because of how it makes me sound. If you look at how it is used, it generally could be eliminated from the sentence without changing the meaning of the sentence at all.
I'm not trying to win any battles or wars for that manner. But I am trying to keep these forums vibrant, worthwhile, and fun for those who participate in them. Thus the call for more politeness and less nastiness on some of the posts. We should all benefit.
Mason
with your fancy sirens and your letters on backwards
a.
Yeah..
Sure, my "We'll take New Mexico, Oregon & Wisconsin in exchange for Florida" post probably shoulda been whacked, but at least the nasty stuff wasn't in the subject line, nor directed at a particular person.
And as for scott's "A White Shade Of Pale Dares Not Speak It's Name" post above... :)
I didn't personally take any offence from that post - sticks and stones and so on.
Andy.
SmoothB: Please do me a favor and don't pass the bar exam. I feel bad enough right now having to tell people I'm an attorney; I can't imagine what lie I'll have to tell if you actually become one also.
I shudder at the very thought.
For those of you who have spare eggs I'm planning on going down on Wed the 15th to watch what these Clowns play for cards in the finals. You'll see me due to my huge frame and baseball hat with a logo that nobody else will be wearing in FW or I will give the first one a white chip (From Vince).
paul
I hope you see this clown at that final table. I plan on playing in that event, especially since so few of the locals have any experience at the game. The question is how many of these inexperienced players will be in, and how many will be tournament trail veterans from out of town?
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
The election debate rages on. I found lead editorials from two of the nations best papers to be fascinating. The following is a link to the first one.
Lead Editorial From the Washington Post
Next is the lead editorial from the New Your Times, arguably the most liberal major newspaper in the nation. I have cut and pasted it into the forum rather than providing a link since one has to register (if this violates some law or ethic please let me know but note that registering is free). Also included is a column by Richard Reeves.
November 10, 2000
A Fateful Step Toward Court
Vice President Al Gore has escalated the atmosphere of combat surrounding the presidential election results with his decision to go to court in Florida. What began on Wednesday as a complaint that the ballot in Palm Beach County was confusing was transformed yesterday into a claim that it was illegal. Of course Mr. Gore has a right as a private citizen to take his grievances to court. But he and Gov. George W. Bush are also political figures seeking the world's most important leadership position. Part of the test of presidential leadership, it seems to us, is finding a way to resolve electoral matters in the political arena.
Given that, it is worrying that Mr. Gore and a legal team led by Warren Christopher, the former secretary of state, would announce their support for a lawsuit while the mandatory recount is still going on and while seven days remain for the arrival of overseas absentee ballots. It is doubly worrying that some Gore associates are using the language of constitutional crisis and talking of efforts to block or cloud the vote of the Electoral College on Dec. 18 and of dragging out the legal battle into January. The CNN political commentator Bill Schneider picked apt language when he spoke of the "treacherous path" that would-be leaders choose when they talk of unraveling the finality of elections.
Fortunately, given the Gore campaign's rush to litigation, there is a time window for both political and legal combat. The deadline for absentee ballots is next Friday. Now that the matter is being put before the courts, Florida authorities should make every effort to use this period to try to secure a decision as to whether state law really was violated by the ballot confusion in Palm Beach County. To be sure, the complaints from the Democrats about a ballot used in that county that evidently confused many voters, causing them to vote by mistake for Patrick Buchanan when they intended to vote for Mr. Gore, need to be taken seriously. So does the question of whether 19,000 ballots disqualified for double-punching resulted from the same confusion over the ballot. The Bush campaign notes that almost 15,000 double-punched ballots were tossed out in Palm Beach County in 1996 and that 143,000 were dismissed statewide in that year. This suggests that ballot confusion is far too common a feature of Florida elections.
It does not, however, seal the case that such lapses should be a reason for a protracted legal challenge that paralyzes the succession process, undermines the finality of presidential elections and makes nervous a world that looks to the United States as a model of political stability. Neither the prospect of legal warfare nor Mr. Bush's rush to put together a transition team is helpful at this point.
One way or another, Republicans and Democrats alike should look toward the earliest possible date for recognizing the legitimacy of one winner in this election. They should not be laying plans that undermine an orderly and honest transition to a new presidency or set damaging precedents for future elections.
We take very seriously the fairness issues raised by the ballot confusion in Palm Beach County and understand the public frustration or even outrage attendant upon the possibility of having the popular will thwarted by procedural errors, especially when a presidential outcome hangs in the balance. The problem is that potential remedies, such as a new election in Palm Beach County, seem politically unsound and legally questionable. The sad reality is that ballot disputes and imperfections are a feature of every election. It will poison the political atmosphere if presidential elections, in particular, come to be seen as merely a starting point for litigation.
Presidential candidates have legal rights that are no stronger or weaker than those of any citizen. But they have an extra measure of responsibility to assure that their actions serve the broad national interest. Both Mr. Gore and Mr. Bush need to be asking themselves whether a scorched-earth legal strategy meets that standard.
Also from the New York Times:
November 10, 2000
There's Always the Option of Giving In
By RICHARD REEVES
WASHINGTON -- President John F. Kennedy would sometimes write the number 118,574 on a slip of paper and put it in his pocket. That was his margin of victory in the popular vote over Vice President Richard M. Nixon in the 1960 election. The vote was close, the mandate thin, the president cautious. In fact, there were a lot of people, Nixon among them, who thought the vote had been even closer than that. Some thought the election had been stolen, that Democrats in at least two states, Illinois and Texas, had produced the necessary number of Kennedy votes from thin air and the names on tombstones. When Kennedy and Nixon met for the first time after the votes were counted, on Nov. 14, Kennedy said, "Well, it's hard to tell who won the election at this point." Nixon nodded. He knew the real reason Kennedy had come to him — they met in a villa at the Key Biscayne Hotel where the Nixons were vacationing — was to try to persuade him not to fight the vote count in court or in the press. But Kennedy did not have to try. Nixon immediately told Kennedy he would not challenge the official results, and they began a meaningless conversation about the prospect of Republicans serving in the new Democratic administration.
If Nixon had decided to pursue a challenge, he might have had a good case. Republicans were producing claims of fraud, waving sworn depositions from election officials in Illinois and Texas. It was great stuff: there were 6,138 votes cast by the 4,895 voters registered in Fannin County, Texas; in the 38th precinct of Chicago's sixth ward, 43 voters seemed to have cast 121 votes in the hour after the polls opened. But whatever else he was, Nixon was a patriot. He understood what recounts and lawsuits and depositions carried out over months — even years — would do to the nation. He was also a realist, and he knew that investigations might well turn up examples of his own party's tradition of recording votes for folks dead or alive in southern Illinois and a few other venues. Besides, even if he could have reversed the result in Illinois, which Kennedy, officially, had carried by fewer than 10,000 votes, Nixon would still have lost. The final electoral vote tally was 303 for Kennedy to 219 for Nixon (15 Southern electors ignored election results and voted for Senator Harry F. Byrd of Virginia), and a switch of Illinois's 26 electoral votes would not have changed the outcome. (There was no provision for recounts in Texas.) Finally, there was Nixon's patron, President Dwight D. Eisenhower, who was angry about the alleged fraud but finally told Nixon that he could not back him in a challenge to the results.
Now, in a time of more honest vote counting, Mr. Gore and Mr. Bush have to decide how far they are willing to go in fighting for the last vote. Declarations of victory, demonstrations and lawsuits could backfire — big time.
Amazingly, Mr. Gore and Mr. Bush have come even closer to a dead heat than did Nixon and Kennedy. But odds are, the counts and doubts will end the same way they did 40 years ago — not in the matter of who wins and who loses, but in the sense that the apparent loser will be under tremendous pressure to accept the official results. A candidate can't reject the process without rejecting his own legitimacy and the nation's faith in that process. My country's counts, right or wrong.
For the rest of his life, Nixon was asked about his decision after that election of 1960. In public, he always gave a variation of the answer he gave to Earl Mazo, a New York Herald Tribune reporter who was his first biographer and who did a series of articles on fraud in the election: "The country can't afford the agony of a constitutional crisis, and I damn well will not be a party to creating one just to become president or anything else."
His good deed was rewarded. Eight years later, in another of the closest of presidential elections, Nixon defeated Hubert Humphrey by just over 500,000 votes in the popular vote and an Electoral College count of 301 to 191. Had he challenged the process in 1960, he almost certainly would not have been invited back by the American people in 1968.
But even after the loser concedes, if the results are certified but remain uncertain, how does the winner govern? It will be much more difficult for this year's winner than it was for Kennedy in 1961 — and not just because the winner may actually have been the loser in popular votes. The context of the presidency has changed.
The greatest presidential power has always been in foreign affairs; past the water's edge the president is the United States of America. The state of the world often determines whether Americans unite behind the commander in chief; debates over domestic politics can seem to be mere bickering.
In Kennedy's time the nation was united by the cold war, but today's issues seem as small and divisive as who pays for aspirin. Kennedy's inaugural address contained only two words on domestic affairs: "at home." Kennedy inserted them after his civil rights adviser, Harris Wofford, protested that he had to say something about the waves of protest by young black Americans in Southern states. Kennedy took a pen and put the words into a sentence about tyranny abroad, ending it: ". . . unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this nation has always been committed and to which we are committed at home and around the world."
It is the Kennedy of the Cuban missile crisis we remember, not the Kennedy whose domestic program, such as it was, was bogged down in Congress and under constant attack in the press. The first meeting between Nixon and President Kennedy after the inauguration involved Cuba. The president invited Nixon in to talk about the disaster at the Bay of Pigs — a time for another show of national unity — in April of 1961. As they parted after a half hour or so, Kennedy said: "It really is true that foreign affairs is the only important issue for a president to handle, isn't it?" Who cares, he asked, "if the minimum wage is $1.15 or $1.25, in comparison to something like this?"
But the president elected in 2000 may well spend his term dealing with issues like the minimum wage and school test scores. Those issues are important to many, but not as important as war and peace. The winner, whoever he is, already looks small — and each day of counting and recounting will make him look smaller.
Meanwhile, if he understands the national concern over chaotic politics, the loser can go quietly into the night and wait till next time.
Richard Reeves, author of ``President Kennedy: Profile of Power,'' is writing a book about Richard Nixon.
As I posted earlier I fear the acrimony that will undoubtedly be created between the two parties, the voters, and the citizens of the USA if Gore continues on the path that he seems determined to follow. Yes there have been rumblings from some Republicans about recounts in other states if Bush loses Florida but there have been many Republicans who have come out and stated that if Gore wins Florida he wins the election.
Some things that really anger me about what is going on:
1) With all the information that has come out about the ballots now it is clear that there is no fraud perpetrated. What is clear to me is that the Democrats are pandering to the voters to gain whatever political ground they can gain. It is also clear to me that there is an issue of personal accountability and responsibility that is being totally ignored by the Democrats regarding the ballots in Palm Beach Country. Since when aren't people responsible for their actions? Apparently this is part of the Democratic party mantra, people are not responsible for what they do. The Democratic Party behavior is sick.
2) Jesse Jackson's behavior has been disgusting. This re-vote idea that he is promoting is the most unfair resolution of this election that I can possibly think of. It's also undemocratic and unconstitutional. Also inciting crowds and stirring up trouble do not help and never will. Personally I am quite worried about violance erupting in our cities because of Jackson's rabble rousing. Rest assured if the shoe was on the other foot Jackson would be screaming about justice and the constitution.
3) The idea of hand counting the votes from only 4 counties that the Democrats choose seems like another attempt to reverse an election that did not go in their favor. In my mind either all the votes are hand counted or none of them are. I understand that there may be some special circumstances in Palm Beach County that require a counting by hand so perhaps it's necessary there.
BTW I am a registered Democrat who voted for both Republicans and Democrats. I voted for Bush and my status as a registered Democrat will be changing very soon hopefully.
Tom,
Great Post!
One thing that strikes me is the patriotism and class of the candidates in 1960. Those were different times. Now lawyers seem to rule the nation.
Whatever the outcome of the ballot count is, to put this in the courts will be a disaster for the nation. At the same time, there is a need for election reform. I don't want exit polls discouraging people from voting in later time zones and I don't want any dead bodies or pets voting.
Here in California we have so many ballot initiatives that only a handful of the electorate has any idea what they are really about. The outcome largely depends on which side has the most effective twenty-second ads. As bad as elected politicians may seem at times, I prefer their judgment to that of the vast and generally uninformed electorate.
Regards,
Rick
Despite their innumerable flaws, both personal and political, JFK & Nixon, loom as giants compared to W, Gore & Clinton.
W is incapable of speaking a coherent sentence, let alone articulating a consistent, logically based philosophy. Nor does he appear to have or want one, if he even knew what one was.
Gore and Clinton are the two most shamelessly pandering, transparent, finger-to-the-wind politicians to serve in high office(although Agnew and James Buchanan are right there, too); and the disgraceful egotism and bias of the national media worsened the both of them exponentially.
It's tragic that Nixon was destroyed by his paranoia and inferiority complex, and more tragic that JFK sold his soul by allowing LBJ on the ticket(and he might not have needed Texas; the defection of 15 Southern Repub electors to Sen.(Gov?)Byrd might've thrown the election into the House, where I think the Dems had the majority in 1960).
Rick,
You sound like a true Democrat in the closing sentence; after all, isn't it George W. who places all his faith in the American People?
BTW, I agree with the editorials. After the mandatory recount is complete and absentee ballots counted, one side should concede. Had the Florida ballot appeared to take votes from Bush, however, I doubt the Republicans, and their assorted conservative mouthpieces, would approach the matter any differently. Do you?
John
John,
You wrote: "You sound like a true Democrat in the closing sentence; after all, isn't it George W. who places all his faith in the American People?
Here is my last paragraph:"Here in California we have so many ballot initiatives that only a handful of the electorate has any idea what they are really about. The outcome largely depends on which side has the most effective twenty-second ads. As bad as elected politicians may seem at times, I prefer their judgment to that of the vast and generally uninformed electorate."
When I talk about politician's judgment, I mean they should be more in touch with complicated issues and would hopefully see the unintended consequence of a bad law (at least more than the electorate in general). So to an extent I prefer gridlock in Washington to direct voting on issues by the electorate.
I trust the people to elect representatives to carry out their will or elect representatives who they believe have the character to do the right thing. I believe much of what was debated by Gore and Bush are primarily local matters (e.g., education). I don't have a problem with a couple of ballot initiatives that can be comprehended (e.g., school vouchers, which went down but I support). But the California ballot is a joke.
Regarding the "generally uninformed electorate", I would prefer that one has to make at least some effort to register and vote. I don't like laws such as the one that provides for automatic voter registration when one gets a license to drive. Lower voter turnout would generally mean that only the more informed voters are voting. BTW, this tends to favor conservatives ;-).
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
Agreed; low voter turnout favors conservatives in some areas; however, what was once a Democratic bastion, The South, is now largely Republican. However, many conservatives, and I think George W. is among them, also realize that the far right conservative voters in The South do not constitute an informed electorate. Instead, the conservative voter in The South, since the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1965, is largely reacting to equal rights. One writer said that Bush is certainly an exception to the usual Southern politician who makes racial prejudice an unspoken, but nevertheless, key part of his platform. Even W's critics admit that he is without racial prejudice and does try to actually unify (note that the split infinitive just sounds better in this instance and should not be considered a mistake) disparate groups.
As for school vouchers--a bad idea. They are merely another form of tax relief for the upper middle classes. How many Americans will be able to send their children to Philips Andover or Exeter Academy because they receive a voucher for $1500.00? In fact, both candidates have very shortsighted educational goals. They favor more testing for teachers and students, yet have no clear idea of what testing will be used for, never mind what the hope to accomplish by testing. It continually amazes me how no national candidate is ever willing to address the real causes of sub-standard public education, chief among them childhood poverty and the economic disparity between schools within even a few miles of each other. These are real issues, and vouchers and testing are persiflage.
John,
Before I start bashing you, let me know if that letter I sent you with pictures is missing the letter part. I printed a slightly revised copy and may have forgot to insert it after I added a few pictures.
You wrote: “The South, is now largely Republican. However, many conservatives, and I think George W. is among them, also realize that the far right conservative voters in The South do not constitute an informed electorate. Instead, the conservative voter in The South, since the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1965, is largely reacting to equal rights.”
I think southern conservatives are just as informed as the voters of suburban Boston. They tend to have a different value system, one built upon devotion to family, believe in God and country, which conservatives appeal to. The fact that this is anathema to the academic, media and entertainment elite does not make them uninformed.
”One writer said that Bush is certainly an exception to the usual Southern politician who makes racial prejudice an unspoken, but nevertheless, key part of his platform. Even W's critics admit that he is without racial prejudice and does try to actually unify (note that the split infinitive just sounds better in this instance and should not be considered a mistake) disparate groups.”
Speaking of split infinitives, I’m trying to improve my writing and grammar. Do you recommend any web sites or books devoted to this subject? I have found the following site, which seems pretty good (someone here might have suggested it):
”As for school vouchers--a bad idea. They are merely another form of tax relief for the upper middle classes. How many Americans will be able to send their children to Philips Andover or Exeter Academy because they receive a voucher for $1500.00? “
When I think of vouchers, I think of an inner city working parents sending their kids to a Catholic School or a charter school. Those nuns can teach and do it for about half the price of a public school. The public schools need competition and the working poor need options.
“In fact, both candidates have very shortsighted educational goals. They favor more testing for teachers and students, yet have no clear idea of what testing will be used for, never mind what the hope to accomplish by testing. It continually amazes me how no national candidate is ever willing to address the real causes of sub-standard public education, chief among them childhood poverty and the economic disparity between schools within even a few miles of each other.”
During the last decade, Kansas City spent a fortune on their inner city schools and nothing has improved. The Dakotas spend about the least on schools but their students are among the best. The big difference is the values parents teach and the higher degree of discipline attained in the rural schools.
Regards,
Rick
PS: Do you ever show these things to Andy? In 1994 he was wearing an “I like Newt” button. Regards, Rick
The Vice-President has an obligation to all Americans to determine whether Bush's apparent razorthin crucial victory in Florida was achieved validly (legally) or not.
Likewise, in those states where Gore defeated Bush, the Governor has every right to demand a recount and investigate allegations of foul play or spurious results.
Kennedy's electoral margin was wide enough so that even had Nixon successfully challenged the Illinois tally, Kennedy would still have prevailed. Therefore, Nixon's acquiescence at the time was an example of political pragmatism, not noble patriotism. The current situation is not equivalent.
The Vice-President's legal challenges have been characterized as devisive. But conceding prematurely with so many suspicions unresolved would be far worse. If Bush's electoral victory holds up under intense scrutiny, Gore will have done Bush a favor. After all, Bush's brother is the Governor of Florida; such a relationship can't help but to engender "queasiness."
Bob Dole's demand that Gore concede at this time is foolish and irresponsible. All the votes aren't even in yet.
Poker players, of all people, should recognize the virtue of patience. Let's first determine the final tally in the other 49 states while awaiting the outcome in Florida. It may turn out that Bush won the national popular vote after all (though I doubt it).
The Constitution was designed to thwart tyranny of the majority and tyranny of the minority. If Bush has indeed been elected President, that means the Republicans will control all three branches of the federal government as soon as one Supreme Court Justice dies or retires.
The majority of Americans who exercised their right to vote have apparently opted to prevent that scenario from occurring. We should respect that determination, even if the effort to forestall a Republican "monopoly" in Washington has fallen short.
"Now, in a time of more honest vote counting" -- i would like the journalist to somehow cite his reference(s) for this.
votescam.org (based on the book votescam i think) does a trememdous job of laying out the solution to the election problems; basicallly how to guarantee honest elections through sole use of hand counted paper ballots (as opposed to secretive computer counted ballots 99% of counties use today). the point is that each candidate or party can have a representative at the precint level to monitior the vote count to ensure accuracy.(which , by the way, is forbidden by law currently.)
brad
.
what is clear is that JebBush, and his operatives sabotaged Florida in a method not seen since 1960. He belongs in jail.
Reuters has reported that a school psychologist in Georgia had 74 third graders (most of them being 8 years old) vote for their favorite Disney character using the same ballot that the voters in Florida couldn't figure out. Without further instructions, the students voted and were then asked immediately afterward which character they voted for. Without fail, every one of the 74 third graders stated favorite matched the vote on the ballot.
Now that the recount has gone against him, Al Gore's only hope for the presidency is to go to court and argue that he can read the minds of everyone who voted for two candidates at once and the confused souls that voted for Pat Buchanan.
This ballot design is used in several other places, including Bill Daley's district in Cook County, IL (wonder if the dead people that have been known to vote there were able to follow the arrows this year). The ballot was designed by a Democrat, then approved by a Democrat. Then, it was published in every newspaper in Florida and no one said anything.
I am enjoying hearing the "will of the people" argument. The constitution is the law of the land. Did we hear any Democrats question the legitimacy of the electoral college two weeks ago when it looked like Bush could win the popular vote and still lose the presidency? On a side note, with the regular votes that still are not counted, along with absentee ballots, it is very possible that Gore's small lead in the popular vote will disappear by the time this is over.
We used to be able to look to our elected officials for leadership. Those that look at Al Gore and his campaign advisors will learn a valuable lesson. If you don't win, just change the rules afterward!
Here is some more democrat disinformation. They keep referring to the 19,000 "disqualified ballots" and hope that people infer that these 19,000 people's votes weren't counted. They hope that it will be further assumed that all of these 19,000 disqualified ballots were meant to be punced for Gore, but also were punched for Buchanan.
Here are the facts:
-Alot of these ballots were doulble punched for other reasons, including probably some republican morons who thought you had to vote for both Bush AND Cheney. Some wre probably just defective.
-More importantly, these 19,000 dq'd ballots include those that were double punched, and when the voter realized the mistake, were exchanged for new ballots. They keep track of these ballots to audit the final results. This would imply that most of these people were indeed, allowed to vote. I guess they want to vote again.
Gore's lead is down to 173, with 252 ballots missing.
. . . we're gonna RAISE TAXES and soak every goddamn poker player who's not a liberal to the BONE. And we're gonna take your hard-earned DOLLARS and give them to every LESBIAN couple we can think of.
And then we're gonna have ORGIES in the Lincoln Room in the White House and SMOKE-INS at the Oval Office. To get a job near President Gore we will screen all girls for BLOW JOB ability. We will have fun at YOUR expense! And don't get mestarted for what we're gonna do to your precious, faggot GUNS 'n all that AMMO you all got locked up. Them's GONNER, dogface.
Do you feel any better now, knowing that we're gonna be on your cases for FOUR MORE YEARS, fascist mofo? Huh?? Do you?
Gaaad, it feels good, to shove it to conservative ass.
haha
The NASDAQ and dow are going through the floor. If you have any money you must buy now. any old index fund will do. do not turn into meek little sheep by thinking that the current political turmoil will have ANY long term effect on stock prices or fundamentals in general.
if you saw my earlier post entitled "smoothb is a gay homosexual" you noticed that i mentioned that i had never have had a post deleted. if you also notice that said post is no longer available to the general public, i am certain you can deduce that fortuna's wheel as turned against me.
in the spirit of adbul, i have decided to never post again.
scott
so i will resume posting.
geez. self-imposed exile sure is boring. i am glad that's over.
while i am mildly upset that my post was deleted, it was not one of my best and i do not begrudge mason at all. it was funny, but it wasn't a masterpiece. what really upsets me is that mason deleted three funny responses to my post. rounder's response to my deleted post is probably rounder's funniest post ever. deleting that is a crime against the gods.
also, i never got a chance to reply to mr narc. the marijuana is medicinal and so is the alcohol. the once in a while drugs should hopefully be out of my system by now, so bring it on. i'll take on you dea punks any day. word.
scott
Glad to have youy back posting. Hope you'll stick around this time. Well, actually, since you are obligated to honor Jim's request and write a post a day on every forum, you have no choice.
BTW, why didn't you just say, "He's happy and troubled by a particular kind of unsuccessful resolution of the Oedipus complex."?
smoothb is "happy" and troubled by an unsuccessful resolution of the oedipus complex.
scott
OhmyGawd...I think .. yes.. I'm pretty sure..isn't that contagious???
...that that's just the old, classic psychoanalytic view of "happiness" - included just for its humor value. The modern view (including psychoanlytic) is more complex, and of course now it's usually accepted that happiness may simply be inborn. Ah, but most of have have to struggle a bit to find it. And then, in the end, we all get even.
Also, not to change the topic, but did it ever occur to anyone that maybe smoothb has just been KIDDING? Eh? Could happen.
i did occur to me. but i qickly refuted that hypothesis.
scott
Mason deleted a post by a government agent? How dare he. I won't be back here but he better watch out. We will be looking at this site very closely.
Big Narc
Scott:
It's good to have you back since you are a valued contributor to our site.
Mason
i don't even think my post could have been counted as libel. i am sure you noticed a couple of logical errors in my proof. my conculsion was not justified and could not be taken as fact by a reader, especially the logic masters that frequent this forum. the only things smoothb could object to are my premises that he is an idiot and not funny. but i think a general vote of posters would rule in my favor.
scott
"but i think a general vote of posters would rule in my favor."
scott
A fascinating concept that I'm sure would carry much weight if this Forum was a democracy.
Don't know about that. I think we would have to wait for the results from Florida.
Fortuna works in mysterious ways, Scott. When I heard of your self-imposed exile, I had some distress, most of which involved my valve. If you are ever deleted again, seek solace in the writings of Boethius.
BTW, Rounder's deleted post wasn't his funniest ever. Not even close. Rounder's post regarding Linda Johnson on the Tournament forum a few weeks back takes that honor.
well, as long as my mother can't make anything from my writings ... that would be unbearable!
scott
"Gay homosexual" is tautological statement unless you were trying to say that SmoothB was light-hearted, carefree or sportive homosexual.
it may be redundant but it is not tautological. a tautoloigical statement would be "gay men are homosexual." "gay homosexual" is not a statement
scott
Pete is very upset and has got a migraine, but he muttered that you were probably right.
He usually is. It gets pretty annoying after a while.
hey sammy. if you want to join the scott fan club send a letter to its president, john feeney. you'll recieve a monthly newsletter depicting my exploits plus a calandar of all scott related events.
scott
I mean it's tough enough being a scott groupie without him going around exposing us to the world. :-( :-( :-(
here is some pedantification for pete to work on. is the statement "this statement is tautological" tautological?
scott
Oh dear, his headache has got much worse.
or, even worse, -- "this statement is not tautological."
scott
Hold'em Quiz For Dummies:
1:) Your hourly rate is a big bet and 3/4. Then the cards turn cold, the mc donald's job is looking good. What are you experiencing?
A> rush B> fatal cards and endless bad beats... C> a statistical cleansing D> room for improvement
2:) "He only had two outs." Who said it last?
A> The guy, who won the pot. B> The girl, behind the guy, who won the pot. C> The slot player, taking a break from poker. D> The guy, to dumb, to lay down the losing hand.
3:) Select winning ugly.
A> Beating the guy, who bank rolled you off the rail. B> Have you looked in the mirror. C> the nut flush on the river with any duce. D> the minnows, eating the sharks.
C when your hourly rate is greater than your ability to play, a statistical cleansing, will correct the error. D dummy never sees the truth, D sharks never see the minnows coming.
SPM, ...more powerful than pocket aces...
10/20 Hold`Em Game last night in Hollywood
The betting is capped pre-flop. Three players see the flop which comes ten h, jack c, queen d. The lady fires a bet, which is raised by the guy to her immediate left , called by the Mystery Caller on the other side of the table and capped by the lady. The turn is a seven of diamonds, Betting is capped on the turn, the river is a deuce of diamonds. Betting is once more capped. The lady fires in the cap of the last bet with the remark, "Well we are obviously splitting this pot three ways" and turns over Ace King os. The guy to her left smiles and turns over the same. The guy at the other end of the table says, "You think so?" and turns over nine four of diamonds to make the flush. Then tries to explain he had an open-ended straight draw on the flop and that is why he stayed through all the capped betting.
P.S. This man tapped out two hours after coming back seven hundred dollars.
And the moral of this story is? Even a blind squirrel finds a nut. But the end result is...He's still blind and still squirrelly
Correction of above post:
15-30 Hold`Em Game..not 10-20
Desire,
Some blind squirrels are females that have a lot of experience with "nuts". So don't just think it's a male thing. "Nuts" that is!
Vince
I'm sure they''ll show us how to do it!
Garrison Keillor will read "Color Values," a poem from the book Graphic Scenes by my friend and colleague Randy Blasing. Also, check out PHC's web page; the annual Joke Show is complete and the best--and the worst--are all listed.
Regards,
John
Her visor was red and she raised coming in, the SPM re-raised and the lady in the red visor capped it hard.
The SPM knew she had a little something someting, she was no pez machine spitting out chips. The flop was scary AKQ, bet,raise, re-raise, re-raise, the chips were flying and the lady in the red visor was no push over.
The SPM could beat AK everything else was finacial ruin. By the turn the SPM had turned into a calling station, and it was looking like an expensive long distant call.
The Lady had pocket Kings, and the SPM had pocket Queens.
The morale of the story is, the cards have no respect for gender.
SPM, ...road hard by a lady in red visor...
Damn...busted!
How did you figure it out so EASILY???
*giggle*
The words "banana(s)" and "possibilities" have a letter sequences of a repeating vowel alternating with a consonant three and four times, respectively.
Any other words with similar sequences? Any words with longer sequences?
nihilist
insipid
inhibit
unusual
cabana
Probably several others but I can't think of any with 4 (like possibilities)...opps...just got one...minimizing..maybe another one...initializing...ok I guess that doesn't work.
Of course, there are tons with the letter "e"
revered
severely
regenerated
etc etc
"Inhibit" doesn't qualify, but "inhibition" does; do you see why? "Minimizing" is an awesome find... :)
"Qualifications" is another near miss.
alabaster, citification, divisible, cemetery,
Yes, you are right...here are a couple with the letter "o":
monotone
monopoly
Bikini!
Mississippi, or is that too many consonants between vowels?
What word uses all five vowels in aeiou order?
Facetious
another one is sequoia but the vowels are not in order
Where's Jim Geary when you need him?
And sometimes "y" in facetiously.
Words with 5 consonants in a row?
Word with 4 vowels in a row?
4 vowels: Quean Onomatopoeia
5 consonants: I have no idea. If I had an Iranian phone book, I'm sure I could find some.
Counting school need go back to.
Sammy,
I used to have a list of these in my head when I played a lot of tournament scrabble a few years back (before poker took over my spare time). My memory is fuzzy but here are a few such words. All are goofy words which you will find in a scrabble dictionary. I can't think of any norml everyday words:
5 consonants:
crwth (musical instrument)
phpht (an interjection)
4 vowels:
Cooee (to cry out)
Looie (an Army member)
Miaou (meow)
Guaiacum (a chemical compound)
I know there are several other such goofy words. Jim Geary probably could rattle off a dozen more under each category. He posts here now and then and is one of the best Scrabble players in the world.
Strengths, lengths, are two I know of.
onomatapoeia, as was said before.
Doh...of course...I was thinking of strength and counted only 4 consonants in a row... it never occurred to me to just add an "s" at the end.
I'll try to refrain from TSKTSKING you for your naivete. (TSKTSKING can be found in North American collegiate dictionaries and therefor is included in the OSPD. It may seem a bit of a conceit, but it doesn't matter much anyway as there is only one K in a set, so it's pretty low on the 9-letter probability scale.) I'll leave it as an exercise to SKP to enumerate the word with 7 consonants in a row.
JG
Symmtry! :)
Tsktsk tsktsk...I just spent about 5 minutes trying to think of a word which has 7 consonants...doh....Man...I *MUST* be thick.
There are several with five in a row. The most common one for computer programmers and Disneyland patrons is QUEUEING. For those who have trouble keeping a poker face, COOEEING comes to mind.
JG
.
.
.
Symphony
/
.
.
.
These are all no good because they have a "y". There are hundreds of words with 5 consonants in a row if you count "y" as a consonant... and I bet you that Jim Geary could string them all together in a paragraph or two for us:)
Sorry for clogging up the board; (like that's ever stopped me before..) :)
It's kinda hard to follow the thread here with lynx on my 80-wide terminal, but if the question is Is SYLPH a word?, then the answer is Yes. If the question is is Y sometimes a vowel, the answer is I'm sometimes a naughty nurse. If the question is do you want a really cool word without vowels that isn't TSKTSKS, then the answer is GLYCYLS. If the question is what two albums did you buy this week that completely rule, the answer is the new U2 and the Beatles Live @ the BBC.
I guess we need a legal decision on this one?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It is a vowel. I was using the word as I thought it meant in the thread even tho I have no idea why they went off on the Y tangent.
JG
As first laid out by J. Geary Esq. SammyB claims 'y's don't count.
If 'glycyls' is our 7 outa 7 wiener, are 'strengths' and 'lenghts' the words w/the longest consec non-y conson chains?
x
5 consonants:
strengths lengths
"Sequoia". Beautiful, f******, beautiful. :)
AMENTIFEROUS comes to mind tho the "standard" solutions are, of course, the two mentioned. For AEIOU non-sequential sevens, along with the common SEQUOIA, there is EULOGIA and MIAOUED. If one were to extend the dictionary domain to The Chambers Dictionary (the official source for Scrabble play in UK and consequently the largest component of the world dictionary), one finds DOULEIA and MOINEAU. There are a dozen or so 'American' 8 letter words that encompass all 5 vowels, and if one were to expand scope to TCD, another ten more. The most common word of the set is probably EQUATION, tho poker player probably prefer OUTRAISE.
JG
..but, 'Loquaciousness', much like AMENTIFEROUS, is a cheat, cuz o' th' repeat.... :)
What word uses all five vowels in aeiou order?
Ha Chaeiou!!!
zezezezezezezeze!! definition= zee with one eye open playing cards.
pm
let's not forget "abstemious"
pm
This may be off topice, but the following two words have a feature that, I believe, is unique in the English language.
committee bookkeeper
Mississippi doesn't count because it is a proer name, not a word.
Note how "committee" and "bookkeeper" vary slightly.
I believe that "mississippian" is a geologic term, thus it qualifies. And it's also unique in several categories of this topic; the Magna Mater, if you will. :)
Please, let's get off of Mississippi before we learn about the greatest card game ever.
whimsical alternative:
woolly
By the way, you're EFFORTLESSNESS leaves my CHEERLESSNESS and EXPRESSIONLESSNESS mired in the BOTTOMLESSNESS of my AFFECTLESSNESS. Your SKILLESSNESS renders my SPEECHLESSNESS mute. The NEEDLESSNESS of it all saddenz. I'll leave it as an exercise for the readers to work into sentences words BOOTLESSNESS, BLOODLESSNESS, FOODLESSNESS, FOOTLESSNESS and ROOTLESSNESS.
(The above can all be found in Merriam-Webster's 10th Collegiate Dictionary (a rather conservative tome, as dics go). I could write a quick script to parse my files for other possibilities of a different construct, but I see a lot of posts with incorrect info to answer first.
JG (resident bonvivant on the National Scrabble Association Dictionary Committee - http://www.scrabble-assoc.com/boards and http://www.math.utoronto.edu/~jjchew/scrabble/nsadc/ )
Those tongue twisters don't cut it. Three sets of UNIQUE paired letters. Each of those you listed has at least two double S's by virtue of the contrived lessness. That also differentiates them from the proper name Mississippi.
I think bookkeeper is unique in that it has the three sets consecutively.
.
Well, given that you specifically dismissed Mississippi in your example solely because of its propernounness instead of mentioning anything about a repeated instance of a digram, it's logically inconsistent to say that my solution didn't cut it given the parameters you outlined because now there is this new one.
JG
forced me to do some thinking about the subject. I admit my suLLeNNeSS and you're wOOLLineSS in changing the rules has left me with a deep sense of crestfaLLeNNeSS. Maybe my grEENNeSS is partially to blame for the suDDeNNeSS of the betwEENNeSS that has come upon us. Don't get me wrong; I'm not attributing any coMMoNNeSS or roTTeNNeSS to the aDDreSSEE, but the selfsame stuBBorNNeSS and wOOdeNNeSS that suCCeSSionaLLy begets us this greater kEENNeSS still ultimately brings biTTerswEEtneSS that no iMMunosuPPreSSant can overcome.
JG
bookkeeper
thats my story and i'm sticking to it.
x
You may already know this, but I pilfered that line from a hilarious story in Larry McMurtry's novel "Baja Oklahoma." The set-up is a guy is explaining how he got kicked out of the house by his wife and mother-in-law. The short version goes something like this:
"So I'm up all night with that little homewrecker because I think my wife is staying at her mothers. I slip home through the backdoor at 5:00 am, when who is waiting for me in the kitchen but my wife, her mother, and her mother's rolling pin."
Mother: Where you been all night, you worthless tramp?
Me: Well, I was workint the shop this afternoon when ol' Coooter Brown pushes in his truck with a blown transmission. Seein how he needed to haul seed today, I stayed up all night fixin his transmission.
Mother: We called the shop at 2:00 am and they said you'd already left.
Me: I did leave at 2:00. But seein' as I didn't want to wake you all when I got home, I slept on the hammock on the porch.
Wife: You lyin' bastard, we took that hammock down weeks ago.
Me: Well, that's my story and I'm stickin to it.
/
cataract
This brought to mind catamaran.
.
abracadabra
Without going to my computer, I'd say the divisibilities with which this post has brought to our forum are completely unwelcome.
JG
If you ever saw it, do you remember the issue date?
December 18, 1995.
Not too surprisingly, it can be found it its entirety on the Jim in the Media page at jimgeary.com . And if you happen to read it, I am obligated by my wife to point out that the woman in question in the first few paragraphs about me is NOT her.
JG
Article is here: http://www.jimgeary.com/scrab/media/SIART.HTM
And picture here: http://www.jimgeary.com/scrab/media/si_1.jpg
Not sure why Cal Ripken made the cover that week and I got stuck on page 70-something. Underappreciated.
JG
Oroboros: a snake eating its tail.
And here's an invented word, just for the hell of it:
flauccinausinisinihilpilificationism: means the "act of estimating as worthless." I didn't make it up, and some dictionaries do contain this word. I didn't check the exact spelling but I think it's right.
John
Samuel Johnson's definition of a lexicographer from his great dictionary: "a harmless drudge."
John
Rounder,
At Harra's East Chicago, Saturday 10-11-00 1pm borading.
Where was the man called Rounder. I want some Rounder action, went to your home court again, you were a no show.
Did you get a real job? I know you hate the games in the Chicagoland area, but your family has to eat. I got easy money for a guy like you.
Come back to Hollywood, and lets mix it up in the 10-20 game.
Got stuck at Harra's early, then played my birthday hand, a real peace of garbage, 64d, the year I was born 1964, I gave you the year in code. Won the hand got even then tightened up, got ahead and ran home.
SPM, ...able to leap tall odds with a single card...
SPM,
Don't make me laugh. Are you honestly trying to say you were born in 1964?
Either you are full of it...or...life has dun done you wrong, babydoll...*giggle*
SPM your kids were more likley born in '64 you have to be a '46 baby boomer unlike me who is 39. :-)
I am not hiding from anyone. I don't do that.
I am in a deep depression considering the most effective way of suicide any ideas - been thinking of the car in the garage thing or maybe hanging, a gun is out since I don't want my wife to have to clean up my brains all over the place. OH, it has to look like an accident as my insurance policy pays double for an accident and I want to leave her a very rich lady she deserves it for putting up with me for 25 years.
All suggestions will be considered.
Thanks,
From unfortunate personal experience may I respectfully say that your post scares the hell out of me.
Dear Rounder,
Well you could come to Hollywood and lie down in front of SPM's Tip Mobile. Mind you, you might have a long wait...but he eventually gets to rev it up and shoot it down the middle..heh
Call your local suicide hotline
Rounder,
See your local doctor and get an antidepressant, it will smooth you out and that empty feeling will pass.
Cheer up! Poker is not that bad in the Chicagoland area. Sure the dealers are slow, but the action is worth the wait.
Get back in the game and mix it up, come to Hollywood, I'll cheer you up and probably donat to your stacks.
SPM, ...offering some comic relief...
I saw you signed up for the tourney. Does it start at 3:00 eastern?
I may give it a look myself, although pot-limit omaha-8 is not really my bag.
Still depressed about the election. I think algore is going to mine for enough votes in Palm Beach and Broward counties to steal this one yet.
Good luck. DoubleT is my handle. Hope to see you at the final table.
Michael,
Are you also DoubleT on Planet?
I have never played on planet.
BTW what is your handle on Planet?
Double T was at my table when I busted out 12th place. It was a non eventful tournament I played 11 hands in almost 3 hours.
Double T was at the final table with 6 left when I had to go out - hope he won.
Let us know how it worked out.
I finished 4th. I didn't realize, but the payed 20 placres with only 80 or so entrants, so I think I made something like 60 bucks. Slave wages for 3.5 hours work. But the online tournament went off almost without a hitch, and the field was weaker than any I have encountered live. Of course, it was only a $15 buy-in.
I busted out by getting trapped like a chump. It was 5-handed and the blinds were 300-600, about to go up to 500-1000. I had about 3300 and was the 2nd shortest stack. I "thought" I had two hands before the BB, and intended to move in with almost anything UTG, since the others were playing overly tight. On the next hand, the other short guy busted out and instead of having a chance to raise, I took the BB.
And the level went up to 500-1000, so I had 1/3 of my stack in and wouldn't even have enough to make a full raise if I also folded the small blind.
I get J5o in the BB. A large stack LIMPS UTG. (This should sounded an alarm). The button folds, and the SB, another large stack calls. I check and take the "free" flop. The flop was a not-too-bad J46. I think for a second that the UTG might have limped with KK or AA, but he also might have limped with AT, AQ, KQs, a medium pair or AK. He didn't seem all that tricky or experienced. I decide to not outsmart myself and move in for my last 2300. UTG calls and I think I need a little help, which doesn't arrive.
He has AA.
I find myself at a real disadvantage playing no line.I miss the smell of testostrone in the air when we get heads up for all the chips. I love the the tells and excitement of pushing a big stack in with a big hand as opposed to click click click - :-)
Rounder,
click, click, click . . . boring. I've still never played online poker. I have to see my opponents to play.
I really agree with you but in poker hell it is bad alternative. Can't wait to get back to real poker country.
Many of you know that I got my start as a poker player in an amazingly tough college poker game at the University of Pennsylvania back about 1970. Besides being tough, it was a great training ground since every hand was disected, after the fact, in a way that would never happen in a public cardroom. Among those players were Donald Smolen, later to author a book on Pai Gow Poker; Peter Goldberg, someone I once ranked tied for #1 with Mike Caro in Draw Poker, and Jeff Chase, later to gain fame as a member of the "kosher boys" and probably the best baseball handicapper who ever lived.
The other five or so members of that group were also immensely talented though they went into other fields besides gambling. I still occasionally talk to most of them and we remain friends. Not surprisingly they are all successes. But ironically the one guy who had the least success, at least from the financial point of view, was probably the most formidable of them all. Eddie Goldstein joined our group of players when I was a sophomore and he was a freshman. Unlike most of the others, he was not to my knowledge, attending the famous Wharton School of business at U of P. After all he had just graduated from the monumental Julliard School of Music in NYC. He was already one of the top pianists and all around musicians in the country. So here was an artist, rather than a businessman or scientist. Many say that poker is more art than science, thus allowing for the possibility that Eddie could hold his own against us math types. Except for one thing. Eddie also had a perfect score on his math College Boards (in the days when such scores were a lot harder to get than they are now). Though he took poker much less seriously then most of us, it didn't matter. This artist-scientist was a force to be reckoned with. It is not farfetched to believe that that if he had turned away from music he could have been the best all around poker player ever. Except for maybe one thing.
He was too nice a guy. He never derived much pleasure from outwitting someone. He would rather help them. He became a good friend to my own musically talented Brenda and helped her along whenever he could. He also did not have much of an ego, although he did once admit to me that he thought he was the best piano teacher in the world. Anyway, that lack of killer instinct towards his fellow man was more suited to his music than poker. In fact he chose to live in Paris for the last 20 years or so, only occasionally coming back here for visits. There it was easier for him to live the life he chose, doing "gigs" teaching music, and raising his child. We kept in touch and I was planning a trip to the Aviation Club with him as my guide. Eddie still played poker once in a while, both in Paris and on his visits here. However his music lifestyle never allowed him to build up a large bankroll so he never played real high. It was just a hobby.
Then something changed. Online poker. This was perfect for Eddie and his situation in Paris. Of course he was very rusty and the medium size games were no piece of cake. Furthermore the games he mastered all those years ago did not include holdem. No matter. This gentle, empathetic man, with the artistic heart and incredible brain was quickly no match for the lesser mortals on Paradise Poker. Under the handle Eddygold he made short work of the 5-10 and 10-20 games, winning about 10K in less than 500 hours. (Some of you may know that I dismissed conjectures of rampant dishonesty on Paradise in large part because I knew that many excellent players were doing well. Some suggested I was being lied to, but I knew that was impossible in Eddie's case.) Eddie and I had started corresponding about Paradise and Holdem, as this was so made to order for him. He could continue his life in Paris as a musician and a father and make all this money on the side. The only problem was his health. Eddie Goldstein died a couple of days ago. Few if any of you ever played with him or even met him. If you never played with him, that was your good fortune. But if you never met him, that was your very bad fortune indeed.
David,
Is there anything much better than being called "too nice a guy"? Thanks, you make me wish I had met Eddie.
Respectfully,
John
Sorry for your loss.
Warmest regards,
SammyB
i wish i had known him.
i hate death.
scott
David, sorry for your loss and my condolences to Mr. Goldsteins family as well.Health is wealth and his unfortunate "bad beat" cost you, he, and his family about 25-30 more precious years of being together.From your tribute it's obvious he touched many lives and will be missed by many who will have to take solace in the great quality of his life.
"This gentle, empathetic man, with the artistic heart and incredible brain "
Warm and wonderful "SMALL" tribute! Thank you, David, for sharing. Here's "ONE" for your friend, Eddie! I would liked to have met him.
Vince
Sorry to hear of this loss. He was surely someone very special to have inspired such a heartfelt tribute.
John
It sounds like the world also lost a very special person.
People like Eddie improve more people's lives, as well as society in general, than a thousand Gore's and Bush's will ever dream of.
Sounds like you had a quite a crew in college.
Condolences to all of you.
BillM
ps None of you guys know a word with 7 consecutive consonants by any chance, do you? :)
Very nice piece, David...very nice indeed.
I too played poker around Penn (a house near the WXPN house which masquaraded as a radio studio). We may have even played in the same game one time or another. Always played draw, stud or a variant. Most of my playing was with the law students at Rutgers in Camden, but playing at Drexel and Penn in 68-70 was a lot of fun. I must say the Penn crowd was a tough bunch (cards that is). I remember having to walk home over the Ben Franklin Bridge one night when I lost all my money and did not realize until I got to the El.
David,
That was a moving tribute. Anyone who says you can't write or don't have a heart are wrong.
Regards,
Rick
I'm off to a great start 0 for 3. Two rookie QB's and hapless SD. Tried posting on OGG but it wouldn't take it so I guess I'm 0-4.
# TEAM Games OV/UN MY PICK RESULT DATE RECORD
18 MINNESOTA VIKINGS 7.5 OV-110 UN/L OV 11/12/00 8_2_0
20 MIAMI DOLPHINS 7.5 OV-125 UN/L OV 11/12/00 8_2_0
26 SAN DIEGO CHARGERS 6.5 OV 105 OV/L UN 11/12/00 0_10_0
Paul
I have only been coming to this site for the last couple of weeks, but David Sklansky's wonderful tribute to his friend who died recently moved me to remember another wonderful person that passed recently and whom happened to play poker as well...and was awfully good at it.
Alma McClellan...she always had a beautiful smile for everyone and was without a doubt one of the classiest and well dressed players in the room. Her husband, Jack McClellan complimented her beautifully...being a very gracious player and, in my opinion, the best tournament director in the business.
There are certain people that have the wonderful ability to make you feel good just by interacting with them..and Alma possessed this talent..effortlessly. She was happy to see you and she would be sure to tell you that. The last time I saw her was a week before her death and I was saddened to see how labored it was for her to breathe and get around. Still her love for the game and for her friends was compelling enough for her to brave that last outing. It brought tears to my eyes to see her courage as she situated herself at the table, wedging her wheelchair up tight so that her reach could be accomodated. Her husband Jack hovered over her making sure she didn't want for anything and I was so struck by his adoration for his wife that it left me breathless..and the glint of something caught my eye. It was a picture of Alma..encased in a gold horseshoe frame on a chain around his neck. This was a man that was proud to display the love he felt for the woman that we all cared for. When I traveled back to Vegas the next week, I was saddened to discover she had passed in the interim. We all know people that truly are an inspiration to us...and Alma was a huge idol to me. The way she carried herself...forever a lady..and a winning one at that. I miss you, Alma...and god bless you, Jack.
It appears SmoothB's post on 'white trash' was deleted. This seems like some harsh censorship to me. I thought the post was funny and not really offensive since nobody really considers themselves white trash do they? And if true, it poses an interesting question about disproportionate allocation of electorial votes in smaller states.
I'm don't believe I deleted this post. It may have moved into the archives. We sppeded the process of moving into the archives several months ago because of forum slowness.
I did delete several posts where people were starting to get very nasty to each other, and to keep the threads intact some of the follow on posts also went down. To keep these forums vibrant it is important that we remain civil to each other, and when we disagree we must "speak" to each other in a professional manner. Our policy is to delete as little as possible and still remain inside our posting guidelines, but because of the election results things seemed to be getting a little out of hand.
Nick-Mason's right. The thread was never deleted. What are you? Some sort of "toothless inbred white trash retard from Wyoming"? LOL
SmoothB's post and most of the responses are gone so I assume it was deleted. I accept Mason's explanation that perhaps some of them contained foul launguage or something. I remember some of the replies were pretty hostile.
Just click on "Archives". Then click on "Other Topics-Recent". Enjoy the bile.
Nick:
We use to carry 1,000 posts on this forum but to speed up loading time Chuck reduced it to 300. So when the forum is very active, like its been lately, some posts will make the archives more quickly than you may expect.
Mason
Here is my letter to the editor that was published in Sunday's Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. Would like to hear your feedback:
"I support the Electoral College. It is incorrect to assert that it is the result of the Founders' distrust of the American people. In 1787 the College was proposed by Pierce Bulter as an alternative to the Founders' idea that Congress elect our executive.
Our nation is a confederacy of individual soveriegn entities -- the States. We are represented collectively through those entities in the federal government. The Founders created population-based representation among the States, but also created mechanisms where States were equally represented. Nowhere is this better illustrated than in the United States Congress -- the House represents the States on the basis of population while the Senate represents the States as equals. The Senate safeguards the less populous States from succumbing to the interests and whims of the more populous ones -- a check on the House of Representatives.
The Electoral College is an extension of this same principle. It creates the same safeguards in the Executive branch as the split Congress creates in the Legislative. That is why each State gets a number of electoral votes equal to its number of represenatives in the House and Senate. It seeks to balance population with state sovereignty. The Electoral College is "anti-democratic" to the same extent as the U.S. Senate.
Should we do away with the Electoral College the rural and less-industrialized States will have little, if any voice in electing the President. The voices of those in Rhode Island, Wyoming, and even Wisconsin will be drowned out by those in California, Florida and New York.
Is it anti-democratic? Sure, but we are not a direct democracy. The United States of America is (are) a republic."
Jon I.
Very good. However, as it would only take 13 States to block dissolving the EC, there's nothing to worry about.
BillM,
Right you are! Opponents will never get the requisite votes in the Senate or in State ratification to get this to pass -- assuming the smaller States know what the heck they are doing.
Arlen Specter -- what a jerkstore. First he goes showing himself to be an idiot in joining the liberal forces' character assassination of Judge Robert Bork. Now he is proposing to abolish the EC. Jerkstore, I say.
Jon I.
"Should we do away with the Electoral College the rural and less-industrialized States will have little, if any voice in electing the President. The voices of those in Rhode Island, Wyoming, and even Wisconsin will be drowned out by those in California, Florida and New York."
I don't support doing away with the EC, but I don't think this statement is true at all. In an electoral system the voices of those in Wyoming and Rhode Island are not heard. They don't have enough electoral power to matter and in Wyoming's case everyone knows it is voting Republican so neither side even bothers to so much as air a single commercial there.
In the electoral system, those voters who do not side with the majority in their state have no voice. What voice did a democrat in Texas have in this election? What voice did a republican in Illinois have? Virtually none. In a general election these voters who are effectively disenfranchised by the winner-take-all electoral system have no say.
What is good about the system is that it forces the major parties to build coalitions and listen to local (state) issues, but this does not happen in ever state, only in "contestable" states which then hold a greater sway over the platform of the candidates and who gets into thw white house.
An interesting question is if the electoral college is good for the nationa as a whole, why do no states use one to elect their governors? If it promotes coalition building and the understanding of diverse issues across groups of people, the states hsould be doing this as well, but no one has ever proposed it.
Personally, I think it is a somewhat flawed system but not one that is so broke as we should amend the consititution to fix it. I do think, though that if have an electoral college, the electors shoudl have to run and campaign. These guys and gals can change their vote and not vote for whom they promised as happened when 15 electors one time cast their votes for Byrd who was not even a candidate!
We should also all note that the current election was run with an electoral system in mind. Had it been a popular vote and Bush had campaigned hard in Texas (which saw no campaigning) perhaps higher Texan turnout would have shifted the popular vote to him. Perhaps Gore woudl have had higher turnout in Democratic areas. We simply do not know what the result would have been in a true general vote.
Okay, rambling over...
Paul Talbot
I think your comments are sensible on this topic. One advantage of the electoral vote is that it (usually) mandates a more clear "winner" than the popular vote, particularly if a 3rd party runs. Look at 1992 for example, where Clinton only got 42% of the popular vote, but won the electoral college in a landslide.
You make some interesting points.
1. "In an electoral system the voices of those in Wyoming and Rhode Island are not heard. They don't have enough electoral power to matter and in Wyoming's case everyone knows it is voting Republican so neither side even bothers to so much as air a single commercial there."
The Electoral College give the smaller states MORE power RELATIVE to what they would receive in a popular nation-wide vote. The fact that no campaigning was done in Wyoming, Rhode Island and Hawaii (and who WOULDN'T look for an excuse to campaign in Hawaii!) reflects the practical reality that those states are already decided -- not that their electoral votes don't matter. No state's votes really matter if they stand alone. This election proves that smaller states do make the difference -- look at Tennessee, Arkansas, West Virginia and New Hampshire this year.
2. "In the electoral system, those voters who do not side with the majority in their state have no voice. What voice did a democrat in Texas have in this election? What voice did a republican in Illinois have? Virtually none. In a general election these voters who are effectively disenfranchised by the winner-take-all electoral system have no say."
'Disenfranchise': to disfranchise. 'Disfranchise': to deprive a person of a right of citzenship, as of the right to vote. I know it is a current buzzword right now, but the Electoral College deprives nobody of a right to vote for President. The Constitution itself sets out what our voting rights are. Further, I sense a distinction without a difference. Those on the losing side necessarily don't have a voice. The Electoral College simply sets up a series of Presidential elections instead of one. Majorities rule, as a general matter. Further, it is not necessarily a winner take all system. States have the right to decide how their votes will be allocated -- look at Nebraska and Maine. I think what they have done is unwise, but it is there right to do it.
"An interesting question is if the electoral college is good for the nationa as a whole, why do no states use one to elect their governors? If it promotes coalition building and the understanding of diverse issues across groups of people, the states hsould be doing this as well, but no one has ever proposed it."
This represents the fallacy that what is good for the whole is good for the individual parts. On the national level federalism is an important concern. Federalism has no place on the state level -- there are no smaller subdivision beyond the states. Municipalities are not sovereign entities but are extensions of the State which incorporates them. You overestimate the importance of coalition building and of understanding of issues. This is about checks and balances and the power structure between the states. There is a reason why the Constitution cannot be amended to take away states' Senators without individual state permission. The protection of state sovereignty (and necessarily the rights of the people within those states) from regional and national majorities is a concept firmly, and justifiably, ingrained in our system of government.
Jon I.
My points are supported by a election results map at:
http://www.geocities.com/diosprometheus/election.jpg
There you can see how it is possible for so geographically little of America -- because of population -- to control the whole nation. Gore garnered a thin majority of the nation's popular vote by carrying essentially only the high-population counties.
Jon I.
I hardly see how a geographic majority or minority matters. Should Alaska get 1/4 of the elctoral votes? The fact is that most Americans live in urban metropolitan areas. However, rural areas have a disproportionate voice electorally than their population would indicate they should. This might not be a bad thing since then those voices have to be heard.
In a general election the campaign would likely take a mass marketign approach. About 50% of the American consumer capital can be reached in just 25 markets. The campaign would be concentrated inthese markets which would deprive (okay not disenfranchise) those who live away fromthese areas from having an equal influence, though their vote woudl matter jsut as much as an urbanite's.
I haven't looked at the map you reference, but I have the NYTimes map showing all the counties in the United States tacked up. There is an obvious urban-rural divide which may reflect differing interests or cultural values. In fact, I find it the only interestign thing about the lection in terms of electoral support.
Do you really by the argument that the states are sovereign? It seems that the country has moved pretty far away from this (and say this with no value judgment, just a question).
Do you really buy the argument that the states are sovereign? It seems that the country has moved pretty far away from this (and say this with no value judgment, just a question).
I think it's pretty amazing that such a question would be asked on a gambling forum. The presence of legal casino or cardroom gambling in the United States during the 20th century has been almost entirely due to the legal status of first the states, and later the Native American tribes, as sovereign entities under the law. Yes, state sovereignty is weaker than it was pre-Civil War, or even in the early part of the 20th century. But it still exists, and has practical implications for gamblers down to the present day.
There is a wide gap between the ability to legislate and sovereignty. When I see Idaho invade Canada, I'll believe it.
You have asked the fundamental question that I believe faces this nation in the new century/millenium.
During the New Deal, specifically with the "switch-in-time-that-saved-nine, we saw the aggrandizement of the federal government, and specifically the office of the President. The Constitution creates a federal government of limited and enumerated powers. The powers not granted to the federal government were and are vested in the States. The expansion of the federal government during the New Deal, and specifically the expanded interpretation of the Commerce Clause, allowed the federal government to regulate matters unimaginable to the Founders -- matters over which only the individual States could have legislated.
Do I believe that States have sovereignty? Yes, to a significant but limited extent. Look at the 10th and 11th Amendments, as well as the enumeration of the federal legislative powers in Article I, section 8. The powers of the States (and thus the people) are limited only by the Constitution's Supremacy Clause and the application of the Bill of Rights through the 14th Amendment (a questionable application -- but I digress).
My pointing out of the map was meant to display the dichotomy that the Electoral College protects. Small population States -- almost always less industrialized -- tend to have different interests and vote differently than populated, industrialized areas. The Electoral College and the Senate were means of guarantee smaller States their voices. The hold that same function today.
Jon I.
Everybody sing...Austin Texas uber alles.....
If the machine count is so inaccurate why does Florida use the machines to count votes? I realize it takes a lot more time to count them by hand. However, if the machine is so much faster then the implication is that Florida policy is that it is more important to count the votes fast than to count them accurately. Also why is the machine so inaccurate as compared to humans? Something seems kind of screwy in the whole idea that the machine is less accurate than humans in counting ballots with the punch holes.
There is nothing screwy about it. almost all mechanical processes are designed to be accurate within a certain tolerance, say 1% or 2%. Since making a process more accurate is always more costly a decision must be make about how accurate you want to be. most elections are not that close so it makes no difference if the voting counting machine is accurate to a 1% error rate or a .01% error rate(given a minimum sample size). This also explains why there are always provisions in voting laws that allow for a recount or a manual count if there is a very close race.
This also explains why there are always provisions in voting laws that allow for a recount or a manual count if there is a very close race.
In order for this line of thinking to be valid, a hand count would have to be more accurate than a machine count. In other words if a machine was accurate to 1% then a hand cound would have to be accurate to something less than 1%. I doubt this would ever be the case. They would probably be better off using statistical sampling techniques to a couple of standard deviations.
Of course, the down side of coming up with a definitive count would be not having these two buffoons entertaining us on the news every night.
Ok from your post you are claiming that a "manual" count is more accurate than a "machine" count. My answer would be it depends on how the "manual" count is carried out. As you state the expense of carrying out a "manual" count that guarantees accuracy that is higher than a machine is probably a lot more expensive. However, I'm not convinced that the "manual" count in Palm Beach County is guaranteed to be more accurate than the machine count.
both of you are correct. I realized the error of my ways too late to retract the post.
Tom:
It is not an issue of wanting a more accurate count. Gore (IMHO) wants to INTRODUCE errors ascotiated with human counting. The last unofficial count was less than half of a percent. This figure can easily be overcome thru human error.
Lets look at it this way.
If their is another automated results the results will probably be the same or similar enough not to make a difference therefore Bush wins.
The only way Gore can change the result is by changing the process.
An interesting slant pointed out by Jodder that may have some validity.
My own 2-cent suggestion: why not switch to machines that utilize electronic tabulation? It seems the vote-tabulating machines are behind much of the business world...
Oh, Jodder, You are a fine example of a fascist! Now all we need is for you to start claiming that it is a black/jewish conspiracy! We may have to make you minister of propaganda!
I have been thinking about how you determine the most accurate count here. When you are dealing with numbers as large as the votes in Palm Beach(450K) how can you be sure of the totals. If your life depended on it, which would you choose...ten counts by a computer or ten counts by people? If the number of votes were only ten then the obvious answer is count them with people. At what point do the human foibles like boredom, exhaustion, bias, lack of focus etc. become so troublesome that the computer is a better choice? What if they decide to manually count the entire state and its 5.8 million ballots. If 580 people counted they would each have to count to 10,000. How many of us could count up to 10,000 and not get distracted or lose your place? I think Jodders post below is correct. The Gore people are counting on the human error to win because they can't win any other way.
Randy
I heard a theory that the "hanging chad" is the key to it all. That is where the punch hole in the ballot isn't pushed all of the way through and is rejected by the computer, but would be counted by a person.
Apparently "uneducated" democrats (their words not mine) experience a much higher failure rate. I guess they are uneducated of the Deliverance variety if they can't figure out a punch ballot.
In any event, this would explain why the Bush folks are opposed to the concept of hand counts, rather than demanding a handcount in all counties.
Interesting though, that the Broward hand count sample only yielded 3 additional Gore votes out of thousands sampled. This essentially validated the accuracy of the machine count. There goes that theory.
I hope Bush wins.
There is also the possibility that older folks are the most likely to fail to push the punch all the way through. If older folks tend here to favor Gore, then this is another possibility.
Bush and Gore split the oldster vote right down the middle. In Palm Beach County, however, the oldster vote is predominantly Jewish, so the effect will favor Gore there and would probably slightly favor Bsh elsewhere.
Another explantion might be that the GOP really does consider the hand count process unfair and open to mischief. If it boils down to a contest of willingness to play dirty, the Dems win hands-down. Just look at the "get-out-the-vote" tactics they used across the country.
"I guess they are uneducated of the Deliverance variety if they can't figure out a punch ballot."
Michael-I would support the Gore administration on two conditions:
1-Replace "Hail To The Cheif" with "Dueling Banjos". 2-Make Ned Beatty National Security Advisor.
You are made a select member of my Select Service(SS) for your obvious bias in my favor.
every election that ever used humans is invalid! George Washington was not President! Neither was Thomas Jefferson, nor Abraham Lincoln! I am the only supreme leader in this country! You will join the state run Republican Party or be labled a counter- revolutionary and jailed! Once you are in jail, I get real glee from executions! Submit to "Adolf" Dubya Bush NOW!
Chad wasn't invented until 1953.
That is correct..all hand ballots are invalid. All Presidents prior to 1953 are non-presidents! All the counter revolutionary Presidents (democrats) are being purged in the books. I am the Supreme Leader! Bow to me and only me,(but bootlick my brother Jeb) or you will be jailed and excecuted!
Machine counts are used even if they result in small inaccuracies because they can be expected to distribute these inaccuracies evenly among all candidates. This guarantee doesn't exist with different people using varying standards of counting.
I had a discussion with a poker buddy this weekend. He was telling me about how he was knocked out of a no limit tournament. Seems he was in the BB and moved all in against two opponents and was called and lost a big portion of his stack. The next hand in the SB he was had 88 and called all in losing to a pair of late osition Jacks. This hand knocked him out of the tourney.
Mulling it over he told me that he had made a mistake. Not on the blind hands but on the previous hand when he was UTG. He was certain that he should have moved all in and that he would probably have picked up the blinds but he failed to make the move for whatever reason. Trying to console him I said that he probably would have called the all in bet with his pocket 8's anyway and still would have been knocked out of the tourney.
He looked a me and said "Oh no everything would have changed". I said in response "Yeah that's true you would ahve had more chips and may not have called". He said "No that's not what I mean. I would not have gotten the eights" he said. I said "What?" He then began telling me that if he had called two hands prior that both his bb and sb hands would hav e chaned. He then babbled something about butterflies flapping thier wings and the chaos theory. He told me that all the math weenies on this forum would agree with him.
I said "Dodoo, caccaa, no way". You (meaning him) are a lunatic". "No", he said." because the cards would have been in a different position when the dealer started his shuffle the results would be more likely to be somehting else". I immediately picked up the phone and dialed 911, "Lunatic patrol please, I screamed". "No I'm serious, he said, and Sklansky will be the first one to agree with me". Now even though I think he's a bit looney I did accept the fact that David might agrre with him. I've talked to David before. Yuh, he could agree.
Anyway, please tell me that somewhere in the theory of probability there lies a concept commonly referred to as "independent trials" and that poker shuflling, although more psuedo than not, still can be considered random distribution. Please. Otherwise please dial 911, Lunatic division, and send them for me.
Vince
Well, he actually is almost 100% right (he could have gotten the eights anyway but it would have been a longshot), but the fact that he is, is entirely irrelevant.
His chance of getting pocket eights would still have been the same in either scenario, of course, Vince, (because probability is pretty much all we have to go on for predictive purposes)...but that 6 out of however-many-combos-there-are-in-two-card-hands looks a lot better to him than the 100% he sees in the rearview mirror. Shuffling is, as you said, more pseudo-random than random--we just have to predict its results as if it were random, since we aren't high-tech computers with video readers which might be able to follow every card through the shuffle.
His "lunacy" is not in thinking that he probably wouldn't have gotten the eights, since on any given deal that is a long-shot, but rather in thinking that things like this matter. However, if he thinks he definitely wouldn't have gotten the eights had he done something differently, he is wrong.
M,
There is a trap here. The trap is that what occurred did in fact occur. What may occur refers to the future. What might have occurred given specific criteria is far from even the pseudorandomness of shuffling cards.
Although time travel is theoretically possible changing the outcome of an event that has occurred may NOT be possible.
Besides, even you mathematical and physical world genuine geniuses cannot know for sure would have happened differently, if anything, if the butterfly flapped his wings immediately after young Scott farted instead of one or two hours hour later, causing that horrific hurricane that wiped out half of the Florida mobile homes and changing the way they vote down there
Vince
Vince:
He does not need to invoke the butterfly/typhoon theory. You are right there is a trap, and it has to do with the past versus the future.
Given different circumstances and a different ordering of the cards prior to the shuffle, one would need a belief in predestination of some sort to think that he would still have been dealt pocket eights, or that he would have a greater chance of this occurring than 6/number of 2-card combos. If you think that he would still have been dealt pocket eights you are falling into this trap. He does not need the butterfly theory at all here. It should be obvious that there is a much more direct connection in this case than in the butterfly/typhoon example, because there is an immediate and direct connection between the starting order of the cards before the shuffle and the likely order after a riffle. Many sequences remain largely intact after just a few riffle-shuffles even if other cards are interspersed between them. The chaos theory/butterfly/typhoon example is far more removed.
Now if he thinks he would definitely not have been dealt pocket eights he is of course also wrong. His chance would still have been 6/number of two-card combos. He is right, however, if he says he probably wouldn't have been dealt pocket eights if he threw his discards in differently, because he probably wouldn't have been dealt pocket eights anyway.
Where he is entirely wrong is if he thinks things like this matter; that is, if he thinks the result of his changing the deck order was any more or less likely to bring him bad or good fortune.
Hey,
Read my post. The question is not whether he would have gotten eights again. That's a randomness issue. He posited that the simple act of playing the previous hand differntly before the hand in question influenced the cards he recieved. Garbooge!
Vince.
No, Vince, he's right.
Just as if you sneezed or not during the shuffle. If you do, it will affect the dealer slightly, causing the order of cards to change slightly, and thereby maybe affecting the outcome of the next hand.
HOWEVER (and this is the important part), it is irrelevant, because you cannot know whether your sneeze will help you or hurt you. Thus, the fact that it would have been different is irrelevant, since you couldn't have known, prior to the event, whether the sneeze would have helped or hurt.
In the rearview mirror, he can see that it couldn't have been any worse, so his change in the order of the cards would have left him in just as bad a spot, or in a better spot. But, since he couldn't know any of this prior to his decision, he cannot use this concept to improve his results. So, he can just as safely ignore it.
I hope I've said this clearly, but I'm not sure.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
No Greg you are wrong!
"because you cannot know whether your sneeze will help you or hurt you."
Nor can you know if your sneeze will change anything. The only thing you KNOW for sure is that the dealer shuffled the cards and dealt 2 8's. That is what is known for sure. Whether or not the order of the cards prior to the shuffle had any effect on the way the cards were dealt cannot be determined. All you theororists that like to develop hypotheticals can surmize all you want but the fact is that you cannot be sure. But I am sure of what was dealt and I am also sure that if my buddy played the previous hand the hand in question, 8,8, would not have been affected. Why am I sure of that? Because what happened, happened.
Vince.
Now you are hitting the nail on the head, Vince, but interpreting it incorrectly.
You wrote: "Nor can you know if your sneeze will change anything." While it is true that it may not, you cannot say for sure that it will not. For your statement to be correct you would have to be able to do so. Why? Because if it influences any little variable at all, it changes the end result. For the 88's to still be dealt there would have to be counterbalancing variables that would restore the result of 88. This is an incredible longshot--something like 6/the number of two-card combos.
If we were talking about a coin flip you would be a bit more correct because a change could just as easily produce heads again as produce tails again. But even here you would only be correct half the time if you said an altered flip would have come up heads anyway.
We are talking about a rare hand--pocket 88's----a change is not just as likely to produce it as it is to produce any other selection from the universe of all other possible hands. Therefore with a change which alters the process, the effect can be estimated to be roughly equivalent to the original probability of the occurrence.
We know there is a 6/36 chance of rolling a seven on the craps table. Let's say you were standing there with your friend. He shot the dice and just as he released them you slipped and bumped into him hard. They came up 7. He said about the same to you. You said it wouldn't have mattered. Well, he would actually be right if he said if you didn't bump him the dice probably wouldn't have come up 7. He would be right because if you didn't bump him the chances would have been 6/36 for a 7 to show. However we know now that your bumping him was part of the equation that led to that 6/36 chance coming through. You cannot say that if you didn't bump him the dice would still have come up 7! They might have, to the tune of the fraction 6/36. You are trying to argue that they would have.
Finally you are saying that the initial order of the discards cannot be said to influence the final outcome of the shuffle. If this were true then shuffle-tracking in BlackJack would be a myth rather than a powerful reality for those select pros. If this were true you could take a new deck and shuffle it as I mentioned in the previous post and you wouldn't still see sequences. But you will see sequences because it is not even a truly thorough shuffle. However even if it were a thorough shuffle the above arguments would still hold, just as the argument holds on the craps table.
"If this were true then shuffle-tracking in BlackJack would be a myth rather than a powerful reality for those select pros"
You are missing the point. You are now referring to non random events when discussing shuffle-tracking. You are also referring to a systematic approach to determining the location of cards in a very definte and specific type of shuffle. A poker shuffle is much closer to producing a random distribution of cards than a multi-deck black jack shuffle. You are trying to make a poker shuffle a specific method of distributing the cards. It's not. I agree that cards are not ditributed in a true random method but that does not translate to a deterministic result in which one can say that if the cards were in just a slightly different position the outcome would be differnt than the one obtained. A poker shuffle can result in a distribution close enough to the definition of randomness.
You have no way of knowing what would have happened if the cards were in a differnt position to start. In fact you would have to admit that the results that were obtained were just as likely to occur if you changed 1,2,3...52 positions of the cards. Since the likeliness or chance of getting the same results doesn't change one must accept the demonstated result as FATE. It was gonna happen. No matter what.
Vince.
I agree that you have no way of knowing what would happen if you changed the position of x number of cards prior to the shuffle. But something different would happen. It makes no sense to assume that everything would still turn out exactly the same.
First, the above arguments hold even for the craps table, and even for poker if you shuffled the deck 100 times. For this to be otherwise, for fate to have anything to do with it, "fate" would have to overcome the initial odds.
If you change the process a little you change the result--unless, of course, the result just happens to fall in the 6/36 on the craps table or in the pocket 88's slot in poker anyway.
Second, single deck poker shuffles are still a lot more deterministic than most players would believe. If you place the discards on the top, bottom, or middle, this will have a profound effect on the resulting post-shuffled deck. Just because we don't know what the effect is doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are even a few BlackJack players who have devoted considerable time to studying Shuffle-Tracking for Single-Deck games. It is a lot harder than for multi-deck. But it can be done to a certain extent. In addition, sequences can be exploited.
But all this is irrelevant except to emphasize that the placement of discards does impact the shuffle. Since it does, changing this changes the shuffling result. Sure it could still come out the same. But that is a longshot. It is actually a bit more of a long-shot than the true odds. If poker shuffles resulted in true randomization then it would equal the true odds--not "fate." But since they are actually somewhat deterministic as well, the chances are actually less than the true odds. If you don't believe this take the Ace and Deuce of Spades and place them together anywhere in the deck with the Ace of Spades on top of the Deuce of Spades. Now give it a dealer's standard riffle-riffle-box-riffle. Look at the resulting sequence. The Deuce still follows the Ace, doesn't it? If you do this 100 times you will find that most of the time it will do this. The Ace will follow the Deuce much less than half the time.
This is one reason I believe casinos should require at least a mini-wash prior to commencing the shuffle. But again, even if it were truly random, the fact that the process is changed will produce a different result--unless it just happens to hit the longshot and produce the same result.
In a post above I wrote:
"Given different circumstances and a different ordering of the cards prior to the shuffle, one would need a belief in predestination of some sort to think that he would still have been dealt pocket eights, or that he would have a greater chance of this occurring than 6/number of 2-card combos."
In your last post above you wrote:
"Since the likeliness or chance of getting the same results doesn't change one must accept the demonstated result as FATE. It was gonna happen. No matter what."
Now I ask you, was it prophecy or was it clairvoyance which prompted me to write the above which you so aptly answered? Or was it just fate?
You wrote:
"Since the likeliness or chance of getting the same results doesn't change one must accept the demonstated result as FATE. It was gonna happen. No matter what."
Let's just look at the very first part and disregard the fate part for now:
"Since the likeliness or chance of getting the same results doesn't change..." this is exactly right, Vince. To be correct the rest of the sentence should read..."then the chance of getting pocket 88's in this alternate scenario is also 6/number-of-two-card-combos."
Or, "Since the likeliness or chance of getting the same results doesn't change, then the chance of getting pocket 88's in this alternate scenario is what probability would dictate"--(not 100%, according to fate).
Maybe we no speaka the same language. My buddy said that if he had played this previous hand everything would have changed. Now how he know that?
Vince
I believe I might see why we are looking at this differently. I think we are perceiving his hypothetical replacement trial differently. Here is what I mean. You are considering that since his hypothetical replacement trial would be randomly generated, it would have the same expectation and same result as the actual trial (I will, for the sake of this discussion, allow that it is truly a random, not pseudorandom, trial, because that distinction makes no real difference to the following argument). You are also thinking that since we cannot go back in time to perform the experiment again, we might as well accept the first result as equivalent to the hypothetical replacement trial result, since we have no evidence that it should necessarily be influenced to be any different.
Let's say that it is the most random of random events that he received those pocket 88's. Now if we were to speculate on another totally independent trial, we would give pocket 88's the same chance of occurring in that seat (6/1326, to be exact). But now let's say we speculate on the past and say: if we went back in time and did it again, what would happen this time? Well, since we have defined this as a totally random, not deterministic event, we would have to give it the same probability of occurrence: 6/1326. We could not say that the previous result would necessarily occur again or that it would not. All we could do is assign a probability because, as we have defined it, it is totally random. While we can say that the probability of such an occurrence is x/y, we cannot say that the result will be the same in the hypothetical replacement trial as long as the result is to be randomly generated, because the hypothetical past replacement trial is really the same as a hypothetical future trial. If you assign it a past result it is not a trial at all but rather a replica. If the result of the trial is truly randomly generated, there would be no guarantee that you would get the same or a different result.
Ok, so now let's change the premise and say that the result is generated deterministically instead of randomly. Then we know that changing the conditions has the potential to change the result.
So there you have it. While the past result is known, to speculate on a hypothetical past replacement trial is the same as to speculate on a hypothetical future trial. If the results are instead produced deterministically, then changing the conditions and/or the processes has the potential to alter the final results.
The trick is that you are correct in thinking that another independent trial would have the same expectation, but as we know, this doesn't mean it will have the same result.
Since you are thinking in terms of a replacement past trial, it seems natural to think that we can tranfer the result too. But we can't. We can transfer only the expectation, not the result, because otherwise it wouldn't be an independent random trial.
"If the result of the trial is truly randomly generated, there would be no guarantee that you would get the same or a different result."
You are making something simple very very complicated with your hypothetical. If you ran this experiment an infinite number of times you would get the same result somewhere in that run. If you went back in time or forward in time and do the experiment to infinity you would eventually come up with the same result regardless of where the cards began. If this was true randomness one could take a fresh deck of cards on each hand, shuffle them and each time the results would not relect the beginning sequence of cards. I realize that this experiment is done with a psuedorandom generator. Namely the shuffler, but I do not buy that the results of the shuffle are so deterministic as to be affected by what happens in a previous hand. This is tantamount to blaming the dealer for the cards you get! Duh!
Vince.
Vince,
I didn't pose the query or the hypothetical situation. Your friend posed the hypothetical situation. I am trying to show that if you actually could somehow perform this hypothetical situation over and over again, you would get different results. This is true even if it is truly random, not pseudorandom.
Since you would get different results for repeated trials, even purely random, not pseudrandom, trials, all you can do is apply probability to this example. Let's just say your friend throwing his cards in differently had no bearing on anything whatsoever and the trial is truly random.
So imagine your friend could actually go back in time and do this over and over at exactly the same time and situation in the universe and that the only thing different is that he throws his cards in differently (which changes nothing). He would still get differing results in accordance with probability theory since we have defined the trial as random. He would not get the same fated result over and over.
So his hypothetical trial (which he, not I, postulated), would produce the different results most of the time. Specifically, if he threw his cards in differently for each hypothetical random trial and it changed absolutely nothing he would receive the 88's 6/1326 of the time.
Therefore the chance of his receiving the pocket 88's if he had thrown his cards in differently is 6/1326 if throwing his cards in differently changed nothing and it is truly random. If, however, it changed something, then we are dealing with pseudorandomness and deterministic elements and you must then agree that these elements would likely change the result. Since in either hypothetical scenario we are incapable of predicting the result, all we can do is assign a probability: 6/1326.
So we can define the chance that your friend will still get the 88's in his hypothetical substitute example as: 6/1326, in accordance with probability theory, not 100% as dictated by fate. This is true whether the process used is random or pseudorandom.
In other words, once you change one of the causes that led to the result observed, if you were to make the trial again, the chances revert from 100% to their estimated original value based on probability theory. Thus you cannot say that he still would have been dealt the 88's, nor even that he would have a 50/50 chance of it. You can only say that if he folded the previous hand instead of having played it (which almost certainly alters the order of the discards which form the stock for the new shuffle), that he would have had a 6/number-of-two-card-combos chance of picking up pocket 88's in that spot.
In other words you are comparing a 100% chance in hindsight with the probability theory chance in a future trial. With regard to another independent trial you cannot say that the past results have more weight in a changed equation than the likely results indicated by probability theory.
While you cannot go back and change the past, with regard to this hypothetical example you can evaluate it as if it were a future trial.
OK. I reread your post (4th time now).
Shuffling is much more deterministic than correctly spinning a roulette wheel and giving it one tap mid-spin (to thwart those who would time the ball). The wheel should better qualify as an independent trial producing random results than should the typical Foxwoods dealer's shuffle. This is because the initial card ordering has much to do with the resulting post-shuffled deck order. Foxwoods dealers typically neither wash the cards nor muck the discards well. You are essentially receiving a much more non-random distribution at Foxwoods than at most Nevada or California casinos. At Foxwoods the card sequences or clumps are more likely to be preserved to some extent because of this sloppy practice.
The more deterministic the process used, the less random it is. Whether your discards go in the top or the bottom or the middle of the muck does indeed influence the next hand in a typical dealer's shuffle--and all the more so at Foxwoods.
In the post below Greg gives the sneezing example. I tend to agree with him, but it is not 100% certain that a mild sneeze would necessarily influence the dealer's motions (a violent AtChoo! almost certainly would). It is however 100% certain that whether you play a hand or not impacts where your discards are for the commencement of the next shuffle, and that a standard dealer's shuffle is not really random--it produces a far less random result than, say, bouncing a die off the rubber at the far end of a craps table.
So it is not just chaos theory at work here, although it may apply too. By discarding at a different time we are changing the seed sequence for the dealer's shuffle. Try taking a new deck and give it a riffle-riffle-box(in 3 or 4 parts only)-riffle and look at it. You will not see a random distribution. You will see many sequences intact even if there are cards spaced in between. Orders are not yet entirely destroyed.
Changing the seed sequence almost certainly will tend to produce a different result. If we can't predict this other than by basic probabilities then that is our handicap.
since you brought up my farts, let me just tell you that my farts dont stink. really.
scott
But a very quick scan of Vince's post tells me that they do cause horrific hurricanes which wipe out mobile home parks.
who cares about people in monbile homes anyway?
scott
The last I remember David writing about this was about a year ago pertaining to a contest in a casino. The winner's name had to be drawn from a barrel AND the winner had to be present at the time of the drawing to remain eligible.
The name which was drawn was a casino regular who had to leave to attend to some business at home. He surmised that if he indeed had been present then his name would not have been drawn. David agreed 100%.
obviously you both are. argue-ing about untestable philosophical matters should only be done while inebriated.
that said, i think your friend is right. i mean, its probably always better to believe we have at least some degree of control over our future, right?
brad
That remember me a situation few months ago ; I arrived in a game where there was a seat open(we will call it the seat A) , someone which was allready in the game (on the seat B ) ask to the dealer to take the seat A , so I take the seat of that guy , The seat A .2 hour later I was down of 500$ and the guy at the seat B was up of 700$ or 800$ . The old crazy woman at my left your not lucky that this teh guy take the seat B , you see you would be winning all that money . I said " no " , she answer me , " common it's obvious you wuold have the same cards ! Are you stupid or what ? " Anyway , that guy was calling raise with K-Toff , and was ok to play 10-4 suited , 4-5 off , A-2 off . Anyway , whatever the guy on the seat B was Johhny Chan himself or Bozo the clown , it's impossible to say that if I was seat on the B was would have happens . It would be interesting if you put your post on the general theory forum because this one is not read by many peoples .
Vinny - he is correct. That is unless a new deck came out just before the 88 came.
A while back I was consoling a dealer friend of mine she had been playing in a game for a while and left she said 3 hands later after she left they hit a jack pot and was feeling down. I told her the jack pot hand most certainly wouldn't have been hit had she baan playing as not only would sha have to be playing the same hands as her replacement but she would have to muck in the same order and most maybe even muck the cards in the exact sequence for the jackpot to have also been hit.
Very very long shot for it to happen that way.
Your pal is right.
Just returned from a six day trip to L.A area(familiy matters). While I was busy most of the time I hoped to get out for a few hrs on Sat. night and check out the cardrooms see if I could find some friends and maybe even play a little. I quickly changed my mind while trying to get to Borders in Brea. The traffic was horrible. I gave it up and went back to my moms. I was already on tilt. I've visited L.A infreqently during the 90s and I've never seen traffic this bad. Those of you that play regularly, how do you handle the commute? Anybody keep track of the time spent per yr getting there? Does it ever put you on tilt? Even though theres way more people here than I like(50+k), I sure was glad to get back to Missoula.
Rick Nebiolo knows more about this, but I can offer that IMO the single biggest factor is the time of day you drive there. You have to avoid peak periods by a *wide margin. I drive there from San Diego, and make sure to go only between about 10am and 2pm, and to return after about 6:30pm. Nevertheless, you will still often hit stop and go traffic. So the next tool is the radio. There are two am stations that give traffic reports every few minutes (am 670 and 960 (?) I think). If you hear about a major problem, you try to take an alternate freeway. But they don't even bother to mention routine slowing on some stretches that can go down to about 15mph for a couple of miles. I'm just barely at the start of the stage of checking out some surface street alternatives, but that may be my future. Of course you have to be as careful as a cobra handler, since in LA you can take an exit and end up in some post-apocalypse republic with with Conan the Barbarian standing on the hood of your car, looking down at you and laughing.
The folks who live near the cardrooms do have an advantage over those who have to brave long stretches of traffic. But it helps to try just to relax, listen to music or whatever, and assume it will take you an extra 45 minutes (and sometimes a lot more) to get where you're going. Anyway, there really is a whole bunch of poker there!
I know how you guys feel. Why just the other day, I left my house at 5:15 PM to drive to Casino Arizona. What was I thinking? It took me over 18 minutes to get there.
Arrrgh. Actually, I have one cardroom 20 minutes from me, and another 15 minutes. But once you "outgrow" the limits of these little places, well, it's adventures with Conan.
Outgrow? You come over here Mr. Cali-dude, and we'll spread whatever you're interested in. I'll even drive the 45 minutes from the west side to get there, tho no doubt 3-BB may dispute my existence even.
...you even existed. Talk to me about Arizona will ya? But that's just it; you don't exist, now do you? 3-BB confirmed it. There are a couple of weany private academies over there with long alumni rosters. But is the name "Geary" on them? I seriously doubt it. I mean who ever heard of the name Geary anyway? Sound like a made up name if you ask me. Like "Wheely" or "Sprockets" or something. So I'm s'pozed to go over there and play poker with some imaginary entity (kind of Yoonesque) with a made up name? I hardly think so.
Ed,
I live between fifteen to thirty minutes from all the rooms when the traffic is off peak. John is right in that it is important to avoid the peak times in certain directions. So generally I will not leave the clubs between 3:00 p.m and 7:00 p.m. Getting there is not much of a problem since rarely will I travel during morning rush hour. If I go in the late afternoon I tend to be going against the rush hour traffic so that is not a problem either.
One thing about Los Angeles is that it has great talk radio. The best stations for talk and traffic are KABC (AM 790) and KFI (AM 640). My favorite talk host is Dennis Prager but he just moved to K??? (AM 870) and will be on from noon to 3:00 p.m. (starting next week). If John Feeney wants to get "inside the mind" of my political thinking he can check it out ;-). Los Angeles has terrible rock stations (what ever happened to adult orientated alternative album rock?) but I’ve been getting into classical which can be found at FM 105.1 and FM 91.5. Ever since I’ve gotten used to MP3’s and CD’s, I find it too much hassle to load a tape in my car even though I must have 500 good ones.
But your biggest problem was going to Brea on a Saturday night. That area is a mess with that big mall and all the nearby stores and restaurants.
Regards,
Rick
Gee, First it was Mr. Text and now this. I guess scott has no need to worry ;-).
Regards,
Rick (who wishes he could crawl into a hole)
It's okay Rick; I took care of it for you in the post below.
come on, rick. you can't play narc. i find it very hard to believe you never used drugs. have some empathy for the devil.
scott
How's about "Phil the Weiner Man"?
John
Wait till I find a way to incorporate a clip from Caro's video into this thread. Then your cover will really be blown. (Chips, chips!)
Hey Big Narc, would you quit signing off as "Rick" please? You're taking over the identity of the real Rick and forcing him to admit to things he's not even doing. Sheesh!
Fooled me, but Rick is a pseudomovie star, ya know
Yeah, I've seen the video. Stanislovsky method for sure.
I live in LA and it is hard to get around, but my trip to Paris made me miss LA drivers.
Well, I found it. A neat little web page/site that lists and explains all common logical fallacies.
If things like a Slothful Induction, a Converse Accident, an Undistributed Middle, or an Illicit Major might interest you, you can find it all at this web site. I don't think they are selling anything.
Some awards the site has garnered: Netscape Cool Site Of The Day, EPCC Libraries "Web Site Of The Month", Statistical Assessment Service Link Of The Month, and Librarian's Choice.
As I posted before, I am just beginning a formal study of logic in my "spare" time ("casual" might here be a better term for me than "formal" -:))
I don't doubt that a formal familiarity with such things will be quite useful.
The URL is www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.htm
The fallacies are broken down by type and you can click on each one in blue for a more detailed description. Further info. is available about the author, references, and info. for educators.
Reminds me of the stuff I read about in the book Introduction to Logic by Kopi.
Here is my final report on the names and numbers of my backers for the World Poker Finals main event, the $5100 NL HE Tournament. The number next to each name signifies the number of shares each purchases, where a share costs $51 and represents 1% of my action. Thus, for each share purchased, a backer will receive 1% of whatever I win next weekend.
2 Sandeep Johar 1 Joan Hadley 2 Tiger123 5 Michael Tedesco 2 Spencer Sun 1 Sean McGuiness 5 Peter Secor 4 JP Massar 1 Paula Tessier 2 Edgar Igarik 2 Jim Meehan
27 Total
Thanks to all of you for your support, and your confidence in my abilities. I hope to bring back a large return for us all.
BTW, there exists the possibility of a discrepancy between what we win and what is reported by Foxwoods, and I wanted to remind everyone of that. I will be willing to make a deal with my opponents at any time if I feel it is a good deal for us. But, Foxwoods does NOT participate in deals, and does not report anything other than the official order of finish and official money. So, for the good or the bad, I may finish in a position officially, and yet win more or less than that position nominally paid.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
who cares?
1. The people on the list who appreciate the update, including me.
2. The assholes who click on a thread, and take the time from their busy day to respond "Who cares?"
I know of a dozen or more people who care about my post, but I'll be surprised if anyone cares about yours.
Lesson for the Day: When you've got nothing to gain from it, why go out of your way to be a Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I'm thinking Fred might be SmoothB in disguise.
By the way we are not related even though we have the same last name.
Best of luck next week, Greg.
You guys are legends in your own minds. I guess when your life centers around stuff like this, you like to think its important, it really matters. Guess what losers...it doesnt. Get a life!
The guy who's trying to inform a few of his friends of facts they want to know (and that the rest of the world can easily ignore)?
Or, the guy who only appears to be capable of trying to denigrate others?
Seriously. I posted something that doesn't interest you. Yet, you felt the need to comment on it in a denigrating manner, rather than just ignoring it. I'm guessing you felt a need for attention, and this was the best opportunity you could come up with. Why is that? Instead, why didn't you choose to contribute something positive? Why be unpleasant to someone for no apparent reason?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Posted by: SammyB (peachdad@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 November 2000, at 10:33 a.m.
Posted by: Fred (FredBBB@aol.com)
Posted on: Wednesday, 15 November 2000, at 5:54 p.m.
Posted by: Greg Raymer (FossilMan) (raymers@worldnet.att.net)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 November 2000, at 10:28 a.m.
so Tiger and Mike Tedesco jumped on the gravy train. I might get a share or 2 next time. Hope you do well.
FossilMan,
Why do you use your real name (assuming it is) with your poker "handle?" Isn't one OR the other sufficient? Superman was EITHER Clark Kent OR Superman, but not both at the same time. Kinda obviates the fun of a secret id. Inquiring minds want to know.
OBTW, good luck at FW.
When Greg sits down to play he (from what I hear) has a few fossils on the felt in front of him (the triceratops is actual size). This is the reason why Greg shuns online play, the darn things keep sliding off the screen. So, the moniker FossilMan, is much more an adjective such as Superman, Man of Steel, Batman and Robin, the dynamic duo, Mike Caro, the mad genius of poker, Jimmy Olsen, Superman's pal, Elvis Presley, the King, The Beatles, the Fab Four.
I think you get the idea.
Greg,
I didn't see you yesterday at FW!! The final table was interesting you probably know all five. I forget their names but the game is incredibly slow to watch. The black player took 10 minutes to decide to call sometimes. You have to be a special type person to play in those trnmts at that pace. I only lasted an hour watching because I can't stand too long due to my back. You could hardly see the flop cards and you would have to move around or ask other spectators what some of the players had at showdown. If they could make it more spectator friendly I think it would be better but it will be a cold day in Montana before I go see another Final.
Good Luck Paul
I can't believe Jay H. won!!! He was down to his small stack and all-in caught a J on the river for 4 J's to beat Philip I. who was leading at the time 2pm. Allen C. was young and he'll be around. Paul S. didn't play many hands and when he did went uncontested.
paul
Where have all the rushes gone?
With the troubled hands I fold?
Did I lose the rush, to the suited junk I fold?
I muck them all and can't win big.
My seat has turned to leather,
and the rushes seem gone forever.
Oh I miss the big wins, that come with a rush.
Should I be playing the junk?
Or play by the rules, and be nobodies fool.
Oh I can't win big and I miss those rushes.
Winning ugly might be my ticket.
For in the land of rushes, were ugly hands live, any two cards win.
SPM, ...winning a little at a time, but missing the fun of the rush...
Are there any good places to play in or around Palo Alto? I'm going there this weekend. Would appreciate any advice.
Jon I.
Bay 101 and Garden City about 20 min-30 min south. Lucky Chances about 40 min north.
Artichoke Joe's is about 20-30 minutes north in San Bruno. IMO it has a better atmosphere than Bay 101 or lucky Chances. if you are looking for limits higher than 15-30 then go to 101 or lucky chances
I've thought of about 10 that are 9 letters long, are there any that are longer?
scraunched
I hope "straights" was one of the ones you thought of
I was out of town this weekend and so did not participate in the thread (which may be just as well).
For a site which lists all kinds of word oddities like you were searching for, try www.cuspidor.com.
If I had used this site and participated in the thread (even after I got back) I might have felt like I was not playing fair.
^
^
.
^
will be going on poker holiday from nov 18 thru tgiving , very loose easy action player; looking for holdem games 5-10 to 15-30 in biloxi, looosiana and possibly tunica ;pleeeze anyone help a reformed he addict find a game(i won't raise your blind) thanks
I only have experience with the Holdem games in Tunica. However, I feel the Horseshoe there has the best action, friendliest staff, and great atmosphere.
They spread $4-8, a couple of $10-20 HE daily and generally also have$20-40 strong from Thursday - Sunday.
Have a great trip.
Diane
Has anyone else noticed that a lot of Europeans call flushes "flashes," at least online? Twice in the past week I was playing on Planet Poker and an opponent from Europe called a flush a "flash," and I'm curious as to where this comes from, and whether or not they're commonly called "flashes" in Europe.
Next, we can discuss the origin of the term "fung how" in California.
-Sean
There is a simple explanation. Your opponent(s) cannot speak (type) English. It saddens me that when Great Britain had the courtesy to join the European Union, the European States did not have the courtesy to all adopt English as their national language.
Sean,
"fung how" in Califoria.
Did you mean, hung how Flash?
SPM, ...more powerful than poket aces...
At this time, there's actually a 61% chance that I will show my face in an Arizona casino for the first time in six months at this evening's NL tourney. Last time I played I dumped 7 buyins and still exited eight minutes after the rebuy period ended, so it's overlay city.
JG
61%... huh... plenty of room to explain any non-appearance, eh?
Brett, don't believe in the Geary entity till it manifests itself before your eyes! And even then, make sure it's not like one of those goofy appearances the Virgin Mary makes eveywhere.
Agreed. Besides, he expects me to drive 40 minutes to Gila River and then try to pick him out of over 100 tournament wannabes. I'll be at Casino Arizona if and when he decides to try playing poker instead of just talking about it.
That's cool if you don't want to go out there. I allot 60 minutes to get there myself. It wouldn't be hard to pick me out tho, I'm sure. One thing to point out, though, is that I do play a lot of poker; but like you, I don't like to drive across town to do so... And if I can play 2 20-40s at the same time...
JG
It's easy to pick me out too:
One of my favorite from email lore.
Bill Of No Rights (The following has been attributed to State Representative Mitchell Kaye from GA. If that is true, I hope he runs for President someday.)
We, the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the blessings of debt free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great-grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt ridden, delusional, and other liberal bed-wetters. We hold these truths to be self-evident: That a whole lot of people are confused by The Bill of Rights and are so dim that they require A Bill of No Rights.
ARTICLE I: You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.
ARTICLE II: You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone - not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots, and probably always will be.
ARTICLE III: You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.
ARTICLE IV: You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but they are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.
ARTICLE V: You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care.
ARTICLE VI: You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.
ARTICLE VII: You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen color TV or a life of leisure.
ARTICLE VIII: You don't have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience. We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight if you'd like. However, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every littletyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.
ARTICLE IX: You don't have the right to a job. All of us sure want all of you to have one, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.
ARTICLE X: You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to pursue happiness - which by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an overabundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.
It amazes me how many Americans insist on the idea that people from a lower socioeconomic status-- that is, people with no money and even less political economy-- are somehow responsible for the bulk of this country's ills.
"You don't have the right to a job."
that's nice. fits in well with nafta and gatt. same school of thought as dan quail, pointing to a burger king part time help wanted sign, saying that there are plenty of jobs.(circa 1990-91)
brad
When you consider that one of the Fed's stated goals is to have MORE people unemployed one has to admit that from an economic standpoint, according to the Fed, it is highly desirable to have a certain level of unemployment. Apparently that number is at least somewhat higher than 4.0%. It's hard to blame the country's ills on the unemployed when at least one part of the government, who is responsible for the economic well being of this country wants people to be unemployed and is unhappy with the CURRENT levels of employment in this country. According to the Fed too many people are employed in this country.
The current level of unemployment in this country is 3.9% When you look at unemployment levels among minorities, especially Afro-Americans, the unemployment levels are much higher. The employment scenario for minorities has improved a great deal (not enough IMO) for minorities in that more people are employed due to the current economic expansion. However, the Fed is clearly on record (read the minutes of their FOMC meeting today) stating that labor markets are too tight . Translated the number of people unemployed is too low. When you think about it, during an economic slowdown, which portion of the labor market gets hit the hardest? I'll give you one guess.
GD,
This phenomenon is well documented in Michael Ryan's Blaming The Victim, the classic sociological text that explores why this happens. The Clinton administration, hardly liberal in any sense of the word, has continued to drop people from the welfare rolls, in part because many Americans readily ascribe to the victim-blaming mentality. Research has continually shown that most welfare goes to mothers with dependent children and substantiated cases of true welfare fraud are relatively few. Yet, we refuse to believe this. Compare welfare fraud, and total welfare payments, on a state by state basis, to Medicare fraud, and most taxpayers would be startled.
John
hard to bail out s & l 's and still provide welfare. well, at least the minimum wage has been brought way down.( in real purchasing power.) if somehow we can just get most people on minimum wage ...
It is indeed a peculiar phenomenon.
On the balance I don't have a real problem with a politically conservative philosophy, although I strongly disagree with the role such a philosophy plays in policy decisions. But what really surprises me is how many otherwise critically thinking conservatives overlook the fact that the only way their federal taxes will be cut is if either the defense budget is reduced or if social security is cut. There's no other way. These are, without question, the two biggest federal programs going. Welfare is simply not 'the problem'.
It also startles me when I think of how many conservatives-- read, people who want to reduce or eliminate the role government plays in our daily lives-- are completely behind capital punishment. If the idea is to reduce the overall power of government, then we probably out to start by eliminating government's power to take a human life. How you can honestly say I'm 'for' reducing the power and scope of government, then applaud a fuckstick like Dwbya for whacking however many people in Texas, is utterly beyond my ken.
And while I'm at it--- I'm sick of all this conservative posturing re: "the power of the individual" and "the corruption of the Jeffersonian philosophy". Let's face it--- if you're rich, and conservative, you vote the way you do because you want your taxes cut. It has nothing to do with any kind of affinity towards American ideals. You do not vote Rebublican because you're a statesman; you vote Rebublican so you can fatten your wallet.
Which is fine. I have no problem with people looking me in the eye and saying "Hey, I'm a single issue voter-- I vote for whichever candidate is going to reduce my taxes the most". But when I've got listen to a bunch of Ayn Rand crap, or quoting from "Wealth of Nations", I want to get sick.
Guy-
It must be great to have such intent into the minds of all Republican voters. You would be a great democrat Palm Beach Vote vote counter.
I am a single issue voter.
That single issue is freedom.
The biggest infringement on my freedom, by far, is the 50% or so of my paycheck that goes to pay taxes.
I do happen to believe in the Jeffersonian American ideal. Sorry if that offends you.
The fact that you believe I am "fattening my wallet" because I want to keep more of what I earn offends me. The statist paradigm that all wealth belongs to the nation and that the government's purpose is to carve it up is dangerous, has been attempted before, and has been discredited.
Don't really have a strong opinion about the death penalty, but in theory I am opposed to it for the reason you state.
You are dead wrong when you tout the liberal mantra that defense spending is the major culprit. Here are some old federal budget data from 1995. Keep in mind that this was before Clinton's tax hike, domestic spending binge, and defense cuts, so military spending is probably understated.
Social Security 22% Medicare 11% Other Mandatory Spending 16%
National Security 18% Other Discretionary 18% Interest 15%
And this doesn't include local taxes, which primarily pay for public education and other entitlements.
Have a good day.
source of budget data: www.budget.org/AnnualReport/55v95/
Here is a better budget link from the current proposal. Defense is only 16% of spending while entitlements are a whopping 73%.
That defense spending dog don't hunt any more.
source:
http://w3.access.gpo.gov/usbudget/fy2001/guide02.html#Spending
On a tangential point, I feel Europe is at a point where they can basically defend themselves and we are blowing a lot of money on the military over there. In other words I think we could significantly reduce our defense spending in that area without seriously compromising our interests.
Michael--
Somehow I figured you wouldn't let me slip below the radar.
I, for one, don't blame you for wanting to keep more of the 500,000 a year that you pay in taxes. That, in my estimation, is an obscene sum, and in a fair and just world you would get to keep more of that.
However, let's make sure we're both on the same field. I'm sorry if you're offended by me reference to the 'fattening of your wallet', but that's exactly what's going to happen if your taxes are cut-- and, to be sure, that's why you want your taxes cut. If the issue here is 'freedom', then why don't we hear you sound off on (amongst other issues) an end to the fucking drug war, or legalization of prostitution, or the right of women to have access to RU486? Whenever a political discussion starts on this forum, you, like most conservatives, only seem to get heated up about one issue-- taxes.
Now I understand we may see this issue differently, but I don't see how you've come to the conclusion that taxes are the foremost impediment to mankind's quest for freedom. Further, I would think that while taxes are certainly an important issue, and you have every right to demand they be lowered, you would come to the conclusion that some issues are more important-- or at least more pressing-- than the tax issue. For instance, I know that Al Gore is no great champion of environmental causes, but for Christ's sake--- does nobody care if our air is clean and our water pure? Bush's environmental record is a fucking abomination. At last count, Houston's air quality had become worse than California's.
Or how about abortion? You may not give a damn about the abortion issue, but I imagine you'll agree that the pro-choice movement is important, if only because reversing Roe vs. Wade would further encourage the Christain right (and I KNOW you hate them) to push for more federal reforms.
The drug war? I can't imagine anybody who takes their personal freedom seriously is at all impressed with the drug war, or the Gestapo branches of government-- ATF, DEA, etc.-- who have been on the front lines for the past fifteen years.
The dealth penalty? Well, O.K., we've gone over this. I'm glad we agree.
Anyway, my point is that if we're going to discuss infringments on our personal freedom there are issues at stake that eclipse the tax issue-- or, at least, in my estimation.
And you're right, it is nice to have such insight into the minds of all Republican voters. Now if only I had the same access to the hearts and minds of Democrats that you appear to have....
Anyway, have a good day. And thanks for you civil response to my post.
And BTW, I do have a lifetime membership to the NRA.
Michael-
Check out the ridiculous thread above called "A letter to Dubya".
Everytime I read one something like this I'm reminded of why so many people despise liberals.
Where do I start. I get heated up about all issues, but my reesponse in this thread was to your budget issues, which are tax-related.
I will/have shout(ed) out from the rooftops:
End the drug war. Legalize prostitution. Leave us alone.
i'm not so sure about roe v wade. I think that was pretty bad law and a dangerous, activist interpretation of the constitution. And its not really an of mine. You gotta pick your battles.
Dig guns and free speech as much as the next guy, but would still rather have my taxes back above all.
I read the Dubya post above and didn't think it warranted a response. Your rantholding Bush accountable for Houston's air quality is almost as specious, though.
I will be the first to say that Dubya isn't entirely responsible for the abominable air quality in Houston. However, I can't see why environmental issues aren't more of a priority for Republican-oriented voters.
Thanks for your response. I'm sure we'll tangle again later, but I hope it's a lot later.
I also hope you checked out the Chris Whitley CD and that you enjoyed it. You seem like a man of class and taste, even if your politics are skewed and wrongheaded...)
The thing I don't understand about you guys is the relentless picking on pensioners and the poor when the largest, least effecient and least accountable federal beauracracy gets off scot free. Since 1949, more than $7 trillion has been spent on "national defense," an expenditure justified almost exclusively by the hysterical and even comical claim -- unshared by the rest of the world, judging by their budgets -- that the U.S. is defending itself against a communist conspiracy to "take over the world." Now that the spectre has collapsed, so-called conservatives and their neoliberal allies (about 90% of the political spectrum with real power) still insist on pointing 2000 nuclear warheads at the rest of the world, routinely applying military force in smaller countries, and continuously expanding the national security state. So to be "conservative" in this country means that you favor more federal spending, a larger federal beauracracy, more central planning, and an overall diminution of local control and individual freedom. That this cyncial enterprise passes almost entirely without comment is much more powerful evidence of the Orwellian character of political discourse in this country than any of the subjects (guns, pc, welfare) that right-wingers devote so much time to bellyaching about.
Who are "you guys". I am only speaking for myself.
But I don't really have a problem with spending lots of money on national security. I think it should be focused on true defense, though, not whimsical nation building.
Your State Representative from GA is surly a cleaver writer.
His concepts are a little scary.
...subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes ...
Where is the problem, the couch potato, or the leaders inablity to motivate?
...we do not enjoy parenting the entire world...
Freedom allows us improve the human condition. Be human and be the best that you can be.
But I did like this one,
You do not have the right to physically harm other people.
SPM, ...I love America...
Why on earth should our leaders be required or expected to motivate people to work?? What a load of crap! If we started taking responsibility for ourselves, even a little bit, the whole world would sure be a better place to live...
Leaders lead, and that means they lead everyone not just the successful. Get a grip on reality, we are not all created equal. Some of us have a greater ability to succeed, lets not forget the little guy, it doesn't cost each individual that much to be charitable...etc.
SPM, ...living in a world with all kinds of opinons.
"charitable" ??
If you're charitable with someone else's stuff, you're not really being "charitable" at all, are you?
Posted by: Suburban Poker Man (Conedil@aol.com)
Posted on: Thursday, 16 November 2000, at 8:54 a.m.
Posted by: HoJu
Posted on: Thursday, 16 November 2000, at 5:42 p.m.
Check this out from the Times of London:
Turn of a card may decide all
BY BEN MACINTYRE
THE presidential contest in New Mexico, and conceivably even the outcome of the whole election, could be settled in Wild West fashion: by a game of poker played between Al Gore and George W. Bush.
Who would you favor?
KJS
What can I say, Poker is part of the culture here in the land of enchantment.
It's not "really" poker -- no betting, no bluffing. A recent sheriff's election in a small county here in NM was settled by a 5-card stud game, actually a showdown game as the hole card was exposed. The NM Constitution says tied elections will be determined by lots -- and 5 card stud is one of the options.
And Bushies: NM is safely in the Gore column, so don't start marking the deck ;>)
Hey I went down to Isletta last weekend and found out that they have a No Limit Hold'em Tournament every Sunday at 4:00 p.m. Isletta is about 15 miles south of Albuquerque on I-25. It's at exit 215 I believe.
when i am sure i have the best hand i should raise, therefore when i am not sure i have the best hand i should not raise. when i am sure i have the worst hand i should fold, therefore when i am not sure i have the worst hand i should not fold. he could have a worse hand, so i shouldnt fold. he could have a better hand so i shouldnt rasise. i should call.
for m: what formal logical errors are in the argument above?
for everyone else: do you think that is why the inertia state for recreational players is loose passive? and, if so, would correcting this logic error be sufficient educating for one to become at least decent at poker?
scott
It does not follow that because you raise when there is a 100% probability that you have the best hand that you should not raise when there is a lower probability that you have the best hand. Just because a propositional statement is true does not mean that its contra-positive is also true. If A then B does not mean if not A then not B. If A is a girl than A is a human being. If A is not a girl does not mean that A is not a human being. The same problem exists with the other propositional statements.
the logic error is off of course but not by the amount that applies to real poker. the reason is that it doesnt take into account the risk rewards(pot size). that is maybe why rec. players are loose passive as they just play their cards and dont attack the equity in the pot. plus most people are more passive types.
Recreational players are loose passive because they don't want to do anything to call attention to themselves or to do anything that might embarss themselves or others.
scott,
This is a neat little post. It is also good because, while I am pretty good at recognizing logic and illogic, I am just starting to learn it formally. So this is a bit of a study/test which I appreciate.
It also has the benefit of counteracting my personal tendencies to laziness and inertia. If you hadn't already guessed, I have been "ready to begin" this study of formal logic for quite a few months now. I usually end up playing Blitz chess or reading/posting instead.
The first two sentences you provide are examples of the fallacy "Denying The Antecedent", which is any argument of the form IF "A" THEN B; NOT "A", THUS NOT "B".
In the third and fourth sentences the conclusion does not necessarily follow from the premise because other potentially important factors are ignored. I do not yet know the formal term for this.
Loose-Passive may well be descriptive of the approach most people use in life as well as in poker.
I may be out of town the next few days so further study questions may have to wait until next week-:)
"when i am sure i have the best hand i should raise,"
True - sometimes. False other times's
" therefore when i am not sure i have the best hand i should not raise. "
False sometimes or other but true once in a while
"when i am sure i have the worst hand i should fold,"
Might be true once in a while but false the rest of the time
"therefore when i am not sure i have the worst hand i should not fold."
Could be true whenever it is not false. Almost.
"he could have a worse hand, so i shouldnt fold."
True when this may be right. False when it may be wrong
"he could have a better hand so i shouldnt rasise. i should call."
True while it is not false but False vis a vis.
How did I do? Do I get the golden logic pin for the maybe's?
Vince
>>for everyone else: do you think that is why the inertia state for recreational players is loose passive?<<
I don't buy the arguement. I see many "recreational" players that like to bluff and play fast.
>> and, if so, would correcting this logic error be sufficient educating for one to become at least decent at poker? <<
I do think that learning the game will help one play better.
I can't imagine why Simpson tried to stop that mini-series from airing? It coudn't have shown him in a better light(except for two scenes: (1)where they changed all the photos in his house before the jury came to look. (2) And at the end where he kind of flew off the handle at Johnny C. when asked about the cut on his hand). The remaining 98% of the two-parter made me wonder if his own mother had written and directed the dang thing.
My wife and I were wondering the same thing.
If I were O.J., I would have helped finance it's production!
-Dan
I'd like to hear how you account for some of the apparent anomalies (O.J.'s unbruised face and body, wetness of the glove found at his residence, etc.)
on the other side, I have yet to come across anyone who can soberly account for the Bruno Magli shoeprints (oh, I can wax fantastical such as: Mark Fuhrman was Nicole's furious jilted lover who stole O.J.'s shoes and gloves and perpetrated to murder to get back at them both...)
"I'd like to here how you account for some of the apparent anomalies like O.J.'s unbruised face and body."
Anomaly? You're joking right? I mean this has to be a joke.
I said APPARENTanomalies. one of the jurors who viewed Ron Goldman's hands claimed to have some knowledge of martial arts and he concluded Goldman's hands came into forceful contact with his assailant(s). Goldman was a big guy, fit, and recently I've heard he had had some training himself in the martial arts. if Goldman landed some blows, where are the marks on O.J.? (counterpoint: consider how unscathed a young Muhammad Ali looked after ten rounds; proscecution's theory: bruises were sustained when Goldman's hands collided with unyielding objects other than his assailant(s) in his immediate environment.)
here's another oddity: matching blood-stained gloves found on the premises of the prime suspect and at the crime scene.
and another: three knocks in rapid succession shake the wall of a bungalow so forcefully it seems to the occupant he is experiencing an earthquake. which just happens to persuade a lone detective to investigate the outside area adjacent to this wall. who just happens upon a critical piece of evidence -- that can be tied to the crime scene -- despite the fact that the alleged perpetrator would have had no good reason to be on that part of his property after his return from the murder scene (could he have accidentally dropped it or deiberately ditched it there?)
and another: the alleged murderer's finger is badly cut while perpetrating the crime. he walks to his vehicle and returns to his residence several miles away. there is very little blood in the vehicle found later by the police, yet a trail of drops leads up the driveway and into the foyer. no trace of blood is found on the beige (or white) rug on the stairs or upstairs. why would someone who just committed a murder and who was evidently aware of the wounded finger (how else to account for the relative absence of blood in the vehicle?) not swathe the finger in a handkerchief or shirt so as to avoid leaving an incriminating trail behind for someone else to spot?
"One of the jurors concluded Ron Goldman's hand came into forcefull contact with his assailant."
One of the jurors concluded? Well I guess that's that.
"here's another oddity: matching blood-stained gloves found on O.J.'s premises AND at the crime scene."
Oddity? I'm missing something here, why should that be considered odd? It just sounds like incredibly damaging evidence.
"Kato JUST HAPPENS to persuade the detective to investigate the area where he JUST HAPPENS to find a critical piece of evidence."
Yeah, so? The cop goes to Simpson's house, he's not there, so the cop talks to Kato who tells him about a suspicious noise that scared the shit out of him, the cop checks it out, he finds the glove. Why does this sound so damn erie to you?
Then you go on to say, "despite the 'fact' that O.J. would have had no good reason to be on that part of his property..." What do you mean? He had a great reason to be there. He wanted to avoid being seen entering his residence! If he didn't go over the fence, he would of had to open the driveway gate.
Now I need some sleep, good night.
you should read Schiller's book (the basis for the T.V. movie). O.J. had a secret entrance to his property removed from the site where the glove was found. I believe he used this "escape hatch" before the infamous Slow Speed Chase. on the night of the murder, he would have had to detour to wind up behind the bungalow (a possibility I admit -- but then why? to dispose of a piece of incriminating evidence the gardeners could not help but stumble upon sooner or later?).
[One of the jurors concluded Ron Goldman's hand came into forceful contact with his assailant.]
you responded: "One of the jurors concluded? Well I guess that's that."
he wasn't, by any means, the only one with pertinent experience to arrive at that conclusion. my point is that a juror's independent observation was consistent with the propounded theory and that the rest of the jury would have been apprized accordingly.
although O.J. remains the prime suspect in my mind, I'm not content to swallow whole a tidy narrative of what exactly occurred that night. just as in a poker game, we are dealing with incomplete information. one thing I am certain of: I was not there to witness the crime.
surely, given the public awareness of a history of domestic discord, O.J. Simpson would have anticipated coming under intense scrutiny (to put it mildly) had he carried out a nefarious plot to murder his wife. yet, once arrested, he APPARENTLY became suicidally depressed. was he acting the whole time? would another kind of performance (e.g., determined resolve from the outset to clear his name) have been preferable?
1% of all murderers have blotted out recollection of the crime so thoroughly they do not consciously believe they committed the act.. the psychologist who evaluated O.J. prior to the trial placed him in that category (assuming guilt). this is not an provocative analysis?
our minds naturally recoil from uncertainty so we tend to ignore data (loose ends, contradictory evidence) inconsistent with emotionally satisfying conclusions.
The fact is Nicole was a battered woman throughout her whole relationship with this monster. It has been well documented by Nicole herself as well as eyewitnesses to O.J's terrible physical and emotional abuse. He abused her in front of their children as evidenced by a phone call to the police where the kids can be heard crying in the background while O.J. rails on and on, screaming at Nicole. What amazes me are the women he still manages to attract. How they can stomach to look themselves in the mirror after sleeping with that pig sickens me. I already know how he can stomach to look at himself..he is a psychotic bastard and is a total egomaniac with only one concern...himself. I wouldn't pay the first dime to read anything about him. I can only try and have faith that he will one day have to face justice for these horrible murders...either in this life...or beyond.
you're off track. millions of men have been at least as abusive to their spouses as O.J. was and very few of these wives, proportionately speaking, were ever murdered by their abusive husbands.
O.J. invented a myth and the public bought into it (multitudes cheered him on during the Bronco chase) , but when the golden idol turned out to be something of a con artist and made of mere flesh and bone after all, that same public reacted with the boundless outrage of the impotent. now the public mind has embraced another myth, that of Demon O.J. the truth is far more complicated and probably far more interesting. I don't like the guy in the slightest, but I've sure learned a bunch by reading about his life of privilege and unchecked self-indulgence, and about the trial too of course, and I never had to pay a farthing (hurray for the public libraries of America!).
there are women who seek out and wed imprisoned multiple killers, so O.J.'s continued success with the ladies is hardly astonishing.
I don't think the OJ case is complicated at all. I think the media and the public complicated it..just as they do everything that warrants extreme attention, the Presidential Elections a case in point. I think you would be surprised as well by the percentage of women killed in this country by abusive lovers or husbands. You cannot take the total sum of women abused and NOT killed..that is a ridiculous argument. Instead take the number of women killed and then check out the statistic of BY WHOM they were killed. The majority were killed by an abusive MAN in their life. Hence, given all the evidence, including his ridiculous suicide run down the highway, the cut on his hand, the GLOVE that was manipulated to NOT fit, the BM shoes, the DNA found IN his home, the limo driver who witnessed him rushing back into his home in the same time frame when Nicole and Goldman were killed, his repeated violent behavior towards her and his documented threats that he WOULD kill her, I cant fathom any rational person concluding that he didn't do it. But still the verdict was a lesson for all of us. Racial division in this country is alive and well. Johnny Cochran crowed even before the trial, "Give me one black person on that jury and OJ walks." Give me a break. Let's just pray that an innocent person in this country is never subjected to a murder trial with a TENTH of the evidence that was presented against OJ, including DNA evidence. OJ.s success with women is not astonishing. I am not astonished at all. I stated that it sickened me...and it does. And about the cheering by the throngs of idiots as he careened down the highway with gun in hand promising to kill himself? That is part of the human enigma...why did the Romans cheer the Christians they threw into the pit with lions? Why do fans cheer for hockey players as they batter each other's brains out on the ice? I can't answer. I am still astounded and humbled by it all. The rich and famous in this country can buy whatever they want...including unjust verdicts.
"You cannot take the total sum of women abused and NOT killed..that is a ridiculous argument. Instead take the number of women killed and then check out the statistic of BY WHOM they were killed. The majority were killed by an abusive MAN in their life."
of course this is how a DETECTIVE should think. but a fair and impartial jury must start at ground zero. the reason why prior acts shouldn't be allowed into the proceedings as evidence is that they are prejudicial; they nourish intuitive suspicions but can't PROVE the party under suspicion committed the crime in question.
"Hence, given all the evidence, including his ridiculous suicide run down the highway, the cut on his hand, the GLOVE that was manipulated to NOT fit, the BM shoes, the DNA found IN his home, the limo driver who witnessed him rushing back into his home in the same time frame when Nicole and Goldman were killed, his repeated violent behavior towards her and his documented threats that he WOULD kill her, I cant fathom any rational person concluding that he didn't do it."
this is the kind of superficial, selective narratizing that gets innocent people convicted. O.J. fleeing for his life? where was this international celebrity with the 6 foot 3 inch frame going to hide? a sophisticated disguise in the duffle bag? a cheap imitation moustache so that O.J. could take his kids to Disneyland. the cut on O.J.'s finger? unnoticed by anyone on the plane or by anyone for whom he signed an autograph en route to Chicago. blood was found on towels and/or bedlinen by the hotel staff the following morning. they also found broken glass. the gloves really did fit? Dershowitz claims that even without the undergloves on, the gloves didn't fit properly on O.J.'s hands. you think this courageous man who lost money by representing O.J. -- and who's life was repeatedly threatened for simply doing a good job -- is lying? too bad for you. the Bruno Magli shoes? this identification was not submitted to the jury at the criminal trial, remember. and while I admit it is EXTREMELY damaging evidence, no one has yet absolutely proved that those were O.J.'s shoes' shoeprints or, if they were his shoes' shoeprints, that he was wearing the shoes when they deposited the prints. nor, for that matter, has the crime weapon ever been located. as for the DNA in his home, I guess you're referring to the blood on the sock. somehow this dried blood went unnoticed for weeks. then, when it conveniently appeared, the defense team noticed the blood had transferred while wet from one side of the sock to the other. hard to accomplish this feat if the sock's on someone's foot. who did the limo driver see? according to O.J., the mysterious figure was indeed O.J. but that O.J. was simply returning to the front door after having left his house to deposit luggage in the driveway in preparation for his trip (see O.J.'s video for his exact words).
according to one account by a credible journalist, based at the time in the mid-West (if memory serves), he was informed by a "Deep Throat" source in the LAPD that Fuhrman had used a piece of the fence at Nicole's house to shift one of the gloves into a blue plastic bag, that Fuhrman had planted the glove on O.J.'s estate, and that later, after the investigation had commenced, blood was smeared or dripped here and there to implicate O.J. Simpson.
by the time the above report was published, most white Americans had dismissed allegations of police misconduct by the defense team as manipulative chicanery, for, as we all know, no officer in the LAPD ever strays from the straight and narrow...
Mark,
Whatever..you sound like a candidate for OJ's next Kato Kaelin or something. Since he's such a swell guy..am sure those anger-management classes he was ordered to take the 112th time he beat up Nicole must have had some positive effect on his ill manners..why don't you see if he still has an empty guest room available. But just to keep my mind at ease..sleep with one eye open...and let's hope he doesnt blind-side you as Ron Goldman and Nicole were.
Cheers
wow, what a mature response. such aplomb! such profundity! next time try doing your homework, or at least some thinking of your own. maybe then you won't have to resort to sarcastic invective to prop up a fractured ego once you run out of halfassed, secondhand things to say.
ummm...ok, oh-astute-one
He objected ONLY after demanding a huge sum of money to allow the project to proceed without him initiating litigation. They refused to pay him a dime and he went forward with a lawsuit to obtain an injunction against the film from proceeding. He lost. I saw the producer of the film in an interview and he said O.J. kept lowering his demands but insisted on getting some kind of paycheck and they were steadfast in their refusal to give him any monies at all, citing the fact that they considered compensating him to be blood money.
...
The only objective thing to do is to count the votes. The spin doctors cannot influence the counts of the votes only the decision to count them or not.
So, if the main reason for one to vote is to have it counted, why not simply recount the disputed areas to be certain the results are correct? (I challenge anyone to present a valid arguement against recounting). What has either party got to loose. Both parties have to realize that the voice of the people is paramount.
For the GOP to say that a lot of voters in Palm Beach made mistakes, and it is "too bad" is so unamerican and self-serving. Recount the ballots and include them with the absentee overseas votes and let the pieces fall where they may.
A poker analogy: A player calls a flush when he actually has a straight flush only to expose the hand (reexamine or recount) and have the dealer call the correct hand. Does he loose to a full house because he made a "mistake" that is readily correctable simply by taking another closer look at the cards (i.e. ballots)? I doubt it.
At least 3 respected statistical consulting firms have concluded that there were significant anomlities with the voting results for Pat Buchanan, and that's another issue I a not even bringing up.
If Mr. Bush and the GOP think they are the undisputed winners consider this; they lost the popular vote and essentially are trying to win the Presidency by a technicality. This is hardly good medicine for America. Allow a recount if you really have confidence in the Democracy.
to the post I was responding to?
This happens quite a bit. I call it a BOUNCING POST. It generaly happens when you respond to a thread that is near the end of the forum. A thread that is just about ready to go into the archives.
Over tha past year, I've seen many of these bouncing posts,including my own.
Good Luck
Howard
Is Mason Malmuth a Bush Brown shirt?
In public poker, the dictum "cards speak" applies. When someone turns their cards face up at the showdown it doesn't matter what they say or what they think they have, what operates here is what they actually have due to the fact that they turned their cards face up for everyone to see. On the other hand, if they voluntarily relinquish control of their hand by tossing their cards face down and the dealer mucks them then in most card rooms their hand is dead even if they claim afterwards that they had the best hand.
The situation in Palm Beach is a unique one. Someone votes and then afterwards states that they made a mistake and wishes to vote again. I don't know if there is a precedent for this.
It's been said over and over. A democrat designed the ballot then a democrat approved it. Then it was sent to ever voter in the mail and published in every Florida newspaper.
When they went to the polls they could have asked questions, and they could have received up to three ballots if they felt that the first ballot they punched was incorrect.
Democrats want you to believe that the second these people came out of the booth, they got all upset that they might have voted wrong and immediately called their congressman outraged. The truth is here..
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20001110/aponline213957_000.htm
Does anyone mention the fact that Florida is in two time zones and that the networks called Florida for Gore before the highly Republican panhandle of the state had closed their polls? Do you think it is impossible that several hundred Republicans decided against voting since their state was already called before they went to vote?
Do we hear threats of legal action against the Gore campaign worker that was caught on tape illegally bribing homeless people to vote by giving them cigarettes?
Gore selectively picks his 4 biggest counties and asks for a hand recount there, to be done by partisan democrats. They are not sure of the standard of what is a vote. During the hand recount they have announced that they started using one standard, CHANGED IN THE MIDDLE, then went back to their first standard. Do you count it if the hole is not fully punched? What if it is just "dimpled"? What if one is punched and another candidate is partially punched? Does that get thrown out? Democrat election officials will be deciding this. Machines are not partisan, they do not have a party affiliation. Twice they have told us that Bush has won (pending absentees tomorrow night).
Enough already.
The Republicans have been cited in several counties as distributing PRE_PUNCHED Bush cards. The FBI has been asked to invetigate. This is the reason That Supreme Leader Bush did not ask for a statewide recount. The ONLY BAD BALLOTS EVEN IN REPUBLPICAN DISTRICTS are ballots that would go to GOre. The Bush campaign, and the Governor, have demionstrated that they are the most corrupt officials in this country in over a century. If he is declared President, it would suit history well to put an asterisk by his name.
I live in Chicago. There's a street guy here who walks down Michigan Avenue with a placard ready "Al Gore is an Alien." He has been doing this for several years.
His message makes just about as much sense as yours, and I'm sure he can offer much more proof than you can.
Mat Drudge, a conservative cyber pundit published this information. So there, Nazi loving Pig.
You can call me all of the names you want. The fact is, when you reveal such a shocking piece of information to the world, you shouldn't expect anybody to believe it unless you can back it up.
But you have never seen a prepunched florida ballot. Nor has anyone who thought of telling that they exist to the newsmedia. Nor has anyone brought a lawsuit alleging it.
But if one person -- who makes his living on shock journalism -- says it, it must be true? Well, here then: I say its not true. That's another opinion, and it should nullify Matt Drudge's in your mind. Now you can go on living your life looking for another ridiculous conspiracy.
YOU bear the burden of backing up your statements. Not Matt Drudge. If you cannot do so, I suspect they will be properly laughed out of the dialogue altogether.
You should be ashamed of the Nazi comment. Lucky for the internet pal, because had you said that to me in person, you would be spitting out teeth right now.
Drudge published it on his website. hee picked it up from the papers in DADE county, Florida.
The Republicans have been cited in several counties as distributing PRE_PUNCHED Bush cards. The FBI has been asked to investigate. This is the reason That Supreme Leader Bush did not ask for a statewide recount. The ONLY BAD BALLOTS EVEN IN REPUBLPICAN DISTRICTS are ballots that would go to GOre. The Bush campaign, and the Governor, have demionstrated that they are the most corrupt officials in this country in over a century. If he is declared President, it would suit history well to put an asterisk by his name.
The spin doctor's words. Both parties spin doctors words should be forgotten.
The issue is whom do most Americans want as President? Who has the most votes and who has themost electorial votes?
All the other stuff is simply excuses and spin.
The spin doctor's words. Both parties spin doctors words should be forgotten.
The issue is whom do most Americans want as President? Who has the most votes and who has themost electorial votes?
All the other stuff is simply excuses and spin.
The votes were recounted, my friend.
What the Gore camp is asking for now is a recount using different standards than the first recount. There is no assurance it will be any more accurate, and there are several assurances that the results will be more variable (machines use one standard -- a thousand people recounting use several thousand standards)
Moreover, the Gore camp seeks a recount in three heavily democratic counties. Look up "sampling bias" in a statistics textbook and you'll see a picture of Bill Daley.
Finally -- talk about partisan interests: of course Al Gore wants another recount. The result can't get any worse for him -- he's got nothing but upside. That doesn't make him any more noble.
Nobody likes bright line rules such as "if you don't vote properly, your "intention" doesn't count." But the fact is that they exist for a reason. This is why you can get a ticket for driving 56 miles per hour in a 55 mile per hour zone. Is it really worse than 55 MPH? I don't know. But the rule is there because the line has to be drawn. There needs to be consistency. When its that close of a call, between 55 and 56 miles an hour, there reasons for picking the "right" speed limit must yield to picking an adequate, consistent speed limit.
Should a "hanging chad" be counted as a vote? There is no metaphysical solution to that question. We have a bright line (if the machine recognizes it, it's a vote) because we could argue all day about where the line should be drawn. When you get close to the line about when a hole is punched, or when a chad is hanging, there is really no good reason to pick one or the other. But you need to make the decision on a consistent basis. So, to do that, machines are used to count ballots. They don't make many mistakes, and when they do, the mistakes are evenly distributed.
If the Gore camp was so noble, they would shout to high heaven that all ballots in every county in every state should be hand counted. It's only because it keeps him out of office that he cares so much about your dumb ass's right to vote.
Democracy: look it up. Most votes wins.
"Finally -- talk about partisan interests: of course Al Gore wants another recount..... "
Partisian? Partisian?
Kathrine Harris defines partisian
let the courts decide. I'll go for that.
Lets hear the next GOP excuse.
Wow! The democrats must have given you a whole carton of cigarettes to win such unwaivering support.
It must be annoying to be a democrat because the law always seems to get in the way. The electoral college gets in the way of the popular vote. It's illegal for our President to lie under oath. Florida law clearly states results were to be certified on Tues at 5 pm.
How embarrassing it must be to be Al Gore. Imagine you waste 8 years of your life doing nothing as Vice President, just waiting for the 2000 election and your presumed chance to win the White House. The economy has been terrific for many years. Then you drop the ball, lose your home state and have to resort to things like handing out cigarettes, telemarketers convincing seniors they voted incorrectly and lawsuits to give yourself a small chance at coming out on top in the end.
If at first you don't succeed, count count again.
Bush supporters are pathetic murderers and pedophiles
Please state your source.
I would assume that a pedophile would prefer the soft on crime liberal democrats.
"Bush supporters are pathetic murderers and pedophiles"
Has anyone ever noticed that Republicans try to debate issues and Democrats call names?
I am not a democrat. I am a fascist! Once again, Austin Texas..uber alles...want some high quality cocaine? we are going to have a large drug invested party soon....all my pals from Iran-contra are happy that we control a third of the traffic.
Assume you know nothing about either man, Bush or Gore. Also assume you are neither Democrat or Republican. Now you see the 2 men debate a neutral issue. Do you think Bush could stand up to Gore? Don't you want your President to be the brightest guy you can find? I would love to be GW's neighbor or friend. I would NOT like to be friends or neighbors with Algore, but for president how could you possibly take Bush over Gore. GW was content to on his ranch doing a great job as a Texas governer. I give him a lot of credit.
GW -- Presidential material...no way.
No Conservative speak please.
Your point would be worth listening to if we lived in a democracy. But we don't. We live in a constitutionally limited federal republic. Most votes doesn't win.
No doubt that Katherine Harris is partisan. But the GOP isn't the party claiming to do something "in the name of the will of the people." They are saying they won, which they likely did. Gore is the one who is saying that this isn't about him or Bush. That is such a transparently deceptive thing to say it makes me laugh. He would not be calling for a statewide recount if the situation were reversed. No way in hell.
You're right that the GOP is being partisan. I don't see why that's bad, given the fact that they aren't claiming to be acting on behalf of anybody but themselves. They have a right to do what they're doing. But the Dems are being partisan and claiming that they are not -- they say they're doing the people a favor. Come on.
BTW: look up the word "Partisian" in the dictionary and you will not find it.
You are correct about the word, but I said look up democracy. I actually live in a narcosyndicated commune where we see violence inherent in the system. We are always being repressed by some watery tart.
Partsian...I must have meant artesian or partisan
LOL!
Perhaps you and I can agree on the following compromise:
Let's put the surviving members of Monty Python in charge for the next four years.
but Bush is the Lead Cartoon
you have evidently ignored Mr. Gore's proposal to have every ballot in every district of Florida hand-counted and to abide by the outcome. had Bush accepted this reasonable offer, it would have relegated the Palm Beach matter to the moot box.
the original margin was over 1500 votes; that was lowered to 300 by the mechanical recount. this is not a negligible discrepancy. the machines have thus proven themselves unreliable. a properly supervised hand count with representatives from both sides present every step of the way is the fairest safeguard available against an erroneous tally.
I think we should have a national vote on whether every "new" vote gets counted for either candidate. That is the only truly democratic process that would express the will of the people.
I am amazed how the GOP refuse a hand recount when they are the biggest proponents of hand counts in foreign country elections (Central America--remember?). They also had a hand recount in Texas. Don't try the "Democrats cheat" BS in a hand cound. Have as many Republicans as it takes to oversee the count. Let Rush and Mike Gallagher sit on the panel. If Bust emerges the winner (and he probably will) then we can all get over it or celebrate it whomever you are for.
In reference to the dimples, pimples and chads, One pf the election personnel mentioned that when the box underneath is full of chads, it results in the hangers and partials. sometimes, they didn"t empty the box.
Anyway, wouldn't each candidate get a like amount of hangers and dimples? unless there was a run on gore votes when the box was full ajsmith
Chaos In Florida
I’m trying to take a step back and be objective about the situation in Florida. There are many things happening right now such as:
- Patricia Harris has stated that she will not accept any manually recounted ballots past the Tuesday deadline unless ordered to do so by the Florida courts. She claims that the reasons for doing the manual recounts are not valid according to Florida law and she has total discretion in making such a decision according to Florida law.
- The Republicans have gone to Federal District Court to stop the manual recount and have been rebuffed there. They have file a motion with the Federal Appeals Court to reverse the decision. Briefs have been submitted and I believe arguments will be heard.
- Harris has asked a Florida Circuit Court and the Florida Supreme Court to order the manual recounts halted. Harris was rebuffed in these efforts.
- Three counties have sought an extension to the Tuesday deadline in order to do the manual recounts. Two counties conducted manual recounts that were completed before the Tuesday deadline and their results have been used as the official vote tallies from those counties. Dade county did a manual recount in I believe three precincts and decided not to do a manual recount for the entire county. I believe that Gore gained 6 votes by the recount in the selected precincts and requested that they be added to the Gore totals. Harris denied this request.
- The Democrats have requested manual recounts in four counties within the time frame prescribed by Florida law. The Republicans made no such request and the time limit for making such a request has been exceeded.
- The Democrats are challenging Harris’s rulings about the manual recount in the Florida Courts. I’m not sure whether it is in the lower Courts and the Florida Supreme Court simultaneously.
- There are several lawsuits brought about by individuals regarding the ballots in Palm Beach County. I believe there are some Court actions filed regarding the way the limited manual recount was conducted in Palm Beach County.
- There is an unknown number of absentee ballots that have not been counted. The deadline for receiving these ballots is Friday midnight. I believe Florida law states that they must be post marked on or before election day. There is a controversy developing over these ballots as to their validity as some are not postmarked etc.
- Gore has come out and made a public offer to Bush stating that among other things he (Gore) would accept a manual recount of all the counties in Florida. Bush has rejected this proposal stating that the manual recount introduces “human error” into the process. Furthermore Bush has stated that there has been a vote and a mandatory recount already.
- Lots of charges and counter charges by both sides about improprieties.
- Gore picked up the lion share of his votes in the recount in Pinellas and Palm Beach counties. From what I understand, Pinellas in primarily Republican while Palm Beach is primarily Democrat.
First of all after making this list of items one thing stuck me that I had not considered before. There actually have been manual recounts in two counties that were accepted as the actual vote tallies for those counties in Florida. If Harris is accepting these I presume that the criteria and methods used for manually counting these votes was legal in Florida. So now I'm not sure that the argument that "human error" is introduced has much meaning under Florida law. If a manual recount is conducted in other counties and they are conducted in a the same manner as the two counties whose manual vote has been accepted, it seems that they must be legal as well. Apparently the problem that Harris has is that extending the time period is not legal without sufficient cause for doing so. Of course this is from someone (me) who is not a lawyer and knows that a lawyer has a different perspective and would probably view this a lot differently.
It seems obvious now of course that the Courts are going to make the decision on how this situation gets resolved. What a friggen mess.
It's a damn sight better than tanks rolling down main street.
Just got this via email... Enjoy! Another Letter from Michael Moore
November 13, 2000
Dear Governor and President-in-Waiting Bush:
This has to be the first time in our history that a candidate who is losing BOTH the popular vote AND the electoral vote insists on being anointed President of the United States.
I can understand why you expect this title to be yours. You have spent your entire life having everything handed to you. You have never had to earn your place. Money and name alone have opened every door for you. Without effort or hard work or intelligence or ingenuity, you have been bequeathed with a life of privilege.
You learned at an early age that, in America, all someone like you has to do is show up. You found yourself admitted to a wealthy New England boarding school simply because your name was Bush. You did not have to EARN your place there. It was bought for you.
You then learned you could get into Yale with a "C" average. Other, more deserving, students who had worked hard for 12 years to earn their place at Yale were denied admittance. You got in because your name was Bush.
You got into Harvard the same way. After screwing off during your four years at Yale -- and maintaining your "C" average -- you took someone else's seat at Harvard, a seat that they had EARNED.
You then pretended to serve a full stint in the Texas Air National Guard. But one day, according to the Boston Globe, you just skipped out and didn't report back for a year and a half to your unit. You didn't have to earn your military record because your name was Bush.
After a number of "lost years" that don't appear in your official biography, you were given job after job by your daddy and other family members -- jobs you didn't have to earn. No matter how many of your business ventures failed, there was always another one waiting to be handed to you. Finally, you got to be a partner in a ball team -- another gift -- even though you put up only 1/100 of the money for the team. And then you convinced the taxpayers of Arlington, Texas, to give you another perk -- a brand-new multi-million dollar stadium.
So it is no wonder to me why you think you deserve to be named President. You haven't earned it or won it -- therefore it must be yours!
And you see nothing wrong with this.
Why should you? It is the only life you have ever known. I will never forget the footage of you sitting in your governor's mansion the night of the election when it was first declared that Gore had won Florida. Surrounded by poppy and mommy, and on the phone to your brother the governor of Florida, you were a picture of calm. You had not a worry in the world. You told the press that your brother had assured you Florida was yours. If a Bush said it was so, it was so.
But it ain't so. And when it dawned on you that the Presidency had to be earned and won by a vote of the people -- yes, the people! -- you went berserk. You sent in hatchet man James Baker ("F--- the Jews, they don't vote for us anyway" was his advice to Poppy in '92) to tell lies to the American people and stoke the nation's fears. When that didn't work, you went to federal court and sued to stop the votes from being counted because you knew how the vote would turn out.
What kills me is how you have turned to the big, bad, federal government for help! Was not your mantra, during every campaign stop, the following line: "My opponent trusts the federal government. I TRUST YOU, THE PEOPLE!"
So now we learn the truth. You don't trust the people at all.
You went running to the FEDERAL court to get your handout ("Trust the machines, not the people," you pleaded). But the judge didn't buy it, and for perhaps the first time in your life, someone said "no" to you.
What will you do now? According to the New York Times, 90% of your campaign funds came from just 775 American millionaires. Oh, that they could bail you out of this mess! I wouldn't count on them -- it's not like they have suffered financially under Clinton/Gore. They know they will do just fine with the Kissin' Fool. I think, my friend, you are on your own.
Mr. Bush, your only hope is that Gore will wimp out and throw in the towel. There is ample evidence of how Democrats love to cave. You and your right-wing friends know the Democrats are weak-kneed and spineless. You remember how Al Gore and all the Democrats voted to put that anti-abortion zealot Scalia on the Supreme Court -- and how 11 Democrats made the difference in placing Clarence Thomas there, too?
That's your ticket. Spook Gore and his party into believing a focus group is mad at them, take a phony poll that backs that up, get the gasbag pundits to yammer and hammer him and maybe, just maybe, you'll get the latest plumb prize that is not yours to have.
Yours,
Michael Moore
Please ask the author to write a similar letter to anyone named Kennedy. At least the Bushes have never killed anyone.
This contrasts so much with our Al Gore. What did his father do? He didn't grow up in a posh Washington hotel while his daddy was in the Senate or did he? And I'm sure never once has a door opened to him because of his last name or who his father was.
http://slate.msn.com/Features/goresr/goresr.asp
Where do you get your facts? The Bushes have been involved with US intelligence since Prescott Bush supplied Nazi Germany with indutrial funding in 1926. Boy, you are an ostrich.
You call someone an ostrich in the same message upon which you refuse to write your name?
You are indeed a coward.
George Bush killed someone personally? I wasn't aware of that. Please state your source.
Since the CIA is funded by your tax dollars, does that make all of us killers?
Hoju..did you mispell your name? Perhaps it should be TOJO.REad the unauthorized biography of GHW Bush. Plenty of documentation. Prescott Bush helped finance the Nazi's in 1926. He also Was president of Brown Brothers Harriman. The legal counsels here were John Foster Dulles, and Allen Dulles. Allen Dulles was director of the CIA under Eisenhower, and fired by Kennedy. You are nazi loving pig.
I tax the rich and give to the poor.
what in the world are you talking about?
are you drunk right this minute?
The unauthorized biography of George Herbert Walker Bush. Published in 1991. The information on the Bushes financing Nazi industrial production (53%) is confirmed. Many assets of their Union Bank and trust were seized by the US governement under the trading with the enemy act in WWII. The Bush legacy is Nazi Fascsim.
Erah, I have erah nevah had any-thing erah handed to me. and erah I nevah erah touched the bitch.. Where is my erah Chivas???
The thing I hate about these vapid fucking e-mails from communist airheads like Michael Moore is that they're completely irrelevant. Whether or not Bush has 'had everything handed to him' or not has absolutely no bearing on how he'll do as a President.
His character has a lot to do with how he will perform as president. I see every indication he is a snide, simpering party boy front man for his dad's political allies. It is entirely possible the first time in his life he ever broke out in a sweat was during election night 2000.
I am a fascist, baby killing, psychopath.Shut up!
Mr. Bush and his pack of attack dogs are trying to make it appear that hand counts of ballots are completely out of the ordinary. But in close contests such as this one, hand counts HAVE been relied upon in the past to determine the official outcome of elections in Florida and in other states. Baker's complaints are therefore no more than a smokescreen for a win-at-all-costs strategy. As long as it suits this strategy, they will disregard local prerogatives at every turn. So much for the Republicans' supposed principle of non-interference at the local level they are so fond of touting.
As for Mr. Bush's personal behavior since Election Day, the adjectives callow, puerile, obnoxious, petulant, peremptory, presumptuous and Procrustean come to mind. He doesn't deserve to win.
Since we have gotten into the OJ case what about the assassanation of JFK? If it was a conspircacy and cover up how could it's secrecy be maintained for so long? If Oswald did the shooting how can anyone support the single bullet theory which must necessarily be true for Oswald to have done it?
nt
It would be tough to keep a conspiracy like that locked up. If there was a conspiracy it would have to be a very small group of people. I'm talking under five people. The reason I say this is because of Top Secret information in the Millitary has been shown to get compromised more often than expected when more than five people know about it.
CV
I highly recommend the book _Case Closed_ by Gerald Posner. Posner was the man who researched Joseph Mengele in the early 80's and broke the story of his drowning. He has also done research on Chinese Tongs and the Martin Luther King "conspiracy".
The basic premise of _Case Closed_ is that Lee Harvey Oswald did it "in solitary league with himself". As for the magic bullet, there is nothing magical about it. Failure Analysis Associates, an engineering research firm that examines what went wrong in a catastrophe, contributed a graphic to the book that explains the bullets path adequately. Three minutes spent looking at that graphic will tell you more than I could in ten paragraphs. Another excellent feature of _Case Closed_ is Posner's total destruction of each conspiracy theory, showing where each one is completely impossible.
Psner's book is nothing more than dis-information. He's a lackt for the government. II highly suggest Double Cross by Sam Giancana. Bill Bonano's book is not bad either.
He looks like the devil - wonder if Posner has 666 tatooed on his scalp.
Ewwwwww!
I agree with a previous post. Citing Posner as a source as to why Oswald had to be the lone assassin is like citing Oliver Stone as to why it had to be a conspiracy.
I'm not sure what, if any, criticisms you or the previous post are making of Posner's book. I don't know what to make of the unsubstantiated claim that it is "disinformation". What leads you, or rather the other poster to think so?
A couple of notes on the "mob connection", again from Posner's perspective. Giancama in Chicago and Trafficante in Tampa were, I believe, the two mobsters that had lost the most from Castro. The Feds had an excellent wiretap in Chicage both before and after the assassination, that the mobsters were completely unaware of. They captured conversations held by top lieutenants of Giancama. In these unguarded conversations it was clear that they absolutely hated and despised Kennedy but were absolutely clueless about what had happened. In fact, they spent hours discussing what had happened and constructing various theories about who did what and why. Hardly what you would expect if there was any mob influence in the hit. Posner also discusses Johnny Rosselli (sp?), boss in New Orleans, who was known for being very tight lipped and cautious. The idea that Rosselli would stand up in a crowded room and while refering to Kennedy shout out in Sicilian, "Get this stone out of my shoe!", was considered to be totally out of character by those who knew him and not reliably witnessed.
Its been 3-4 years since I read the book and no one of course can prove a negative. The above are only two of the anecdotal examples illustrating not only how unlikely the conspiracy theories are but also how unlikely some of the "evidence" that is given to support it is. The most compelling arguments are those that show how the conspiracy theories go fundamentally against the character of those they are speaking about. The depiction of the assassin as given from testimiony from his Russian wife and the KGB coverage as revealed by the Soviet defector (forgot his name) are two of the more illuminating sources on who Lee Harvey Oswald was, that had not been available until Posner wrote his book. It is his careful examination of Oswald's history and the observations of those that knew him that are the best arguments for the strong strong probability that he acted alone. Unless of course you think he acted alone to his knowledge but was set up as a patsy by some vast all powerful conspiracy. Hopefully that is held only by the most loony of the conspiracy buffs.
Couple of thoughts:
The underworld community was overjoyed at the assassination of JFK there was dancing in the streets of little Italy when he got shot - Bobby made a lot of trouble for the mob in he early 60's - I remember a story my father tells of RFK sticking his face in my fathers and shaking his finger at him saying "don't you love your country" - Now I'm not saying the mob did it but they were capable of it and as far as secrets - dead men tell no secrets.
Now in the 70's I worked for a major utility as a traveling manager and this company had 2 covert CIA operatives working (on our payroll for cover) in 2 of our 17 overseas operations one in Hong Kong and the other in Guatemala - the Hong Kong guy was just counting boats in Hong Kong harbor - he did take me to the Gurkin head quarters one Saturday afternoon - that was an interesting assignment these guys had - anyway the guy in Guatemala was a drunk who liked to start insurrection in central America and get smashed, not necessarily in that order. One night in a drunken stooper he told me he was 100% sure the CIA had an active part in the assassination.
So - I guess anything is possible - I have always said the government can't keep a secret and I DON'T believe the CIA had any part in it - but the other guys well that's another story.
There is a very thoroughly researched book called "Contract on America" that makes a strong case for it being a mob hit. It was written by a math or engineering professor at MIT, so I give him some credibility and the thoroughness of his footnotes is a thing of beauty.
JG
I have not read this book but when considering the mob Cuba connections, Oswalds Cuba connections and Jack Ruby a mob connected not to patriotic sort with terminal cancer.
It sure looks like a mob influenced hit.
Like I said dead men tell no lies.
It's been a few years since I read the book, but I think the most damning circumstancial evidence of personal association had to do with New Orleans mobsters. Given Oswald's alleged whereabouts, Bayes would say it's pretty unlikely the mob was not involved. If history has taught us anything -- one thing -- it is that any man can be killed.
JG
Why on earth would the mere fact that someone is has an engineering degree make their book on a political assassination more credible?
The prosaic answer to all this, that Oswald acted alone, seems to me very hard to refute. He was a little man who wanted to be a big man and he succeeded.
Mob hit? If this were bungled then every italian american in the country would be at risk of ending up hanging from the light poles. Cuba? Havana might be reduced to cinders in minutes. CIA? They certainly enjoyed this sort of activity in other countries but to pull this off in the states would require an army of cold-blooded killers willing to take the story of the century to their graves.
Actually, it's the footnoting that moves me, but I agree that all your counterpoints are valid.
JG
I turned the TV to one of those Religious channels the other day when they were having some type of fund raising scheme going on. The Evangelical Preacher was going into a very well thought out persuasive speech that bluntly gave this message; “If you give our church $2000 even if you are in debt yourself, then within the next year God will wipe your debt clean.”
I couldn’t believe what I was hearing so I started looking for all the psychological ploys that were used to coerce people to give the church money, even if they really had no money to give. From what I could see, people are put into an emotional state by the speaker who tells a couple stories about how people who have given to the church have become wealthy, and that the more money they gave the more they received. Second, the message was simplistic “Give us money and you will receive ten times that amount”. Of course the church offers this person everlasting life and love, and the people giving must be entrapped from prior experiences because I would hope people would believe the; “Go in debt to get out of debt” explanation to be fairly silly.
Now to give a pledge of $2000 all you had to do was call up the “Prayer Line”. There was an interesting catch though. In the top right-hand corner of the TV screen was a counter that told how many of the lines were busy and how many were free. By the end of the sermon all of the One-hundred and Four lines were busy. Talk about Conformity!
This is the icing on the cake. The Evangelist then said to the audience; “ As you can see the lines are busy but don’t give up! I know the Devil may be trying to tell you that you shouldn’t call because you won’t get through. What a liar he is! Don’t be bent to his will!” This tactic seems to be playing off of the need for Cognitive Consistency, but in a heavy-handed way. If you don't give to the Church you have been tempted by the Devil!
I had to change the channel after that!
Chris Villalobos
Wonders never cease.
What I wondered was how much of the Program was made to coerce people out of their money? The whole program seemed Evil to me.
CV
All televangelists are con artists but this guy beats them all: worldchangers.org. He takes the art of spiritual extortion and emotional blackmail to a new level. I cringe every time I watch him speak on TV. But I give him credit for his marketing creativity. It turns out that the arrangements that he calls "partnerships" are really a multi-level marketing scheme that actually allows "contributors" to make money! Robert Allen meet Billy Graham. Shamelessly blasphemous.
While waiting to find out who will be the new Commander in Thief (my name for Al Gore if his lawyers pull it off) why not listen to some tunes.
I've had MusicMatch as my main music playing software for a while. They just upgraded to version 6.0 and so far I'm blown away. In addition to their award winning MP3 player, they have various types or web radio.
Tonight I tried the radio and they have some sort of commercial free (well almost free - they occasionally plug MusicMatch) radio in sixteen categories. It hasn't hiccupped once in three hours. I do have DSL but it is still amazing compared to what I've seen and heard before.
Anyway, there is a free version you can download at the following URL:
Regards,
Rick
As a techno illiterate I have no idea what your talking about. While in L.A this past week I was in the mall trying to find a birthday gift for my wife when someone asked if I wanted a free cell phone(promo). You should have seen the look on their face when I told them I'd never even held a cell phone. Yes, I realize I,m on a different page than most. I'd planned on trying to stop at Hawaiian Gardens on Sat. nite but traffic kept me home. I did drive by early Sun morn. when traffic was much lighter, on my way to the Commerce but didn't stop. I'll try another time to say hello.
Ed,
Go to the web site and download the free version. Use it to play CDs (you do have CDs, don't you?) and take your favorite songs and convert them to MP3 files using Musicmatch. Then you can play them with a mouseclick. Then there is Napster but that is another story.
Anyway, I hope to run into you next time.
Regards,
Rick
poor Ed you'r spending too much time in montana you need to get out in the world. in L.A. they have so much crime that people are allowed one call from their cell. its the law. so some judge required a cell phone so they wouldnt have to be removed from the cell just for a phone call. that mp3 stuff is some kind of music the kids listen to. i think its a new group that also dances. if you need something to listen to when walking i have a state of the art sony walkman i got a few years back i can give you, and its takes those new fangled small tapes that are going to replace all the 8 track ones some day. maybe ill run into you some time in missoula at the new library thats named after some guy called barne noble. i go there to read like most smart people when in town. they also have coffee there at night its called late coffee but its about 2 bucks for a cup and people make a big deal about it. they even have a good magazine section that has all the latest gun magazines and hot rods. but be careful when you pick them up all the subscription cards fall out all over the floor and people look funny at you.
While I've spent a bit of time at the new library I've yet to try the new fangeled coffee. Two bucks, I'll have to mull that over for a few weeks.
Way cool! I can now sit here pounding away on the ol' laptop and have tunes that I like at the same time. Nice having that "play next track" feature.
I figured out Napster a couple of weeks ago (who says you can't teach an old dog) and sitting at my desk having lunch today, I went to my MP3 file on 'My Documents" to play some songs while I noshed. The MusicMatch site popped up and I ended up having to play the songs I had previously downloaded off Napster through the MatchMusic jukebox. I have absolutely no idea why, but it worked OK.
Say "hi" to E and Greg. She check-raise you heads-up lately?
The lady with the red visor she puts on a fabulus hold'em show.
Three feet from her seat and no cards are dealt to her.
OH no Mr Dealer you don't deal the lady with red visor out of a hand.
She begins a humorus verbal attach on the dealer, and with the grace of a lioness she grabs the cards from the players within her reach and announces a miss deal.
The players take it with a smile, of course it's a miss deal, she's the lady in the red visor.
Then she beats them with a little somethin, somethin,hand, while verbally attaching their manhood, or what's left of it.
She's the lady in the red visor, and smart men walk softly when she holds court at the hold'em table.
SPM, ...a survior... :)
Spell check, spell check, spell check
It might be kinda fun if she "attached" their manhood in her red visor........
Hi! Assuming 2+2 has no problem with it, I will send $10 to the first person who correctly identifies the exact quote and author of it who said:
"If you've been playing poker for 45 minutes and you look around the table and can't tell who the sucker is, you're it."
Need this by Sunday evening if possible.
-- Jeff Norman
Jeff,
David Sklansky said it on the most recent showing of the World Series of Poker on the Discovery Channel. But he didn't claim to be the originator of the quote.
Regards,
Rick
It is also in Rounders. But I think the time is 30 minutes.
Pretty good, guys, but I'm looking for the original quote. It's at least 20 years old!
Jeff Norman
i heard it 30 years ago so i think its one of those quotes that came from alot of sources. I hope you are doing fine Jeff.
"If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table then you are the sucker."
I have heard it was from Amirello Slim.
Cool Hand Luke,
George Kennedy
One thing is for sure: whoever said it either wasn't a very good player or wasn't referring to himself. I don't believe that it was Slim, Puggy, or Johnny Moss. While I can't say for certain, I'd be willing to bet that it was said originally by either Nick the Greek or Titanic Thompson.
It may have been said by the same guy who said "luck is where preparation meets opportunity." I don't think attritution is possible.
Sklansky, Malmuth and ither math whiz's:
First of all, I am not trying to make an argument for either candidate. My examples may sound like it, but I had to slant the example to the way the facts are currently occurring so that my point could be seen (at least I hope you see my point)
First of all, feel free to correct my writing, I found it hard to try and convey the question that I have. Sorry if its to wordy, hopefully you can see where I am going.
It would seem that no one has really addressed the likelihood that errors in ballot counting are almost assuredly occurring on both sides. Given the closeness of the race and the fact that there is presently no way to ensure 100% accuracy of any type of counting method, there is no way will we ever no what the true "will if the people" is in this particularly tight race.
Having said that, it would seem that Sklansky and Malmuth and others (I am not so inclined) could calculate the statistical probababilty of Gore winning the election using the facts that we presently know and making the assumption that there is no bias (unless you can accurately derive a percentage for bias). Also, it would seem that every counting method has a corresponding error percentage and a related likelihood that the error percentage will positively impact one candidate versus the other.
I'm curious if you have enough information to calculate the likelihood of the following:
1) Accuracy of the 1st machine count and percentage likelihood that it correctly showed Bush to be the victor.
2) Accuracy of the 2nd machine count and the percentage likelihood that it showed Bush to be the victor.
3) Accuracy of the limited hand counts and the likelihood of it producing enough votes to give Gore the victory. I am also curious if you can calculate the related accuracy of this manual recount.(surely it has an error rate that could be negatively effecting either candidate).
4) Accuracy of a complete, statewide, hand recount and the statistical likelihood that it would produce enough votes to give Gore the victory. Additionally, what is the accuracy percentage of the statewide, hand count results?
I'm curious to know if you could make enough calculations that would enable you to make a conclusion as in the following example statement prior to any statewide hand recount.
EXAMPLE CONCLUSION:
"there is a 98% likelihood that the 1st machine count is accurate, and a 97.9% likelihood the 2nd machine count is accurate, there is a 94.5% likelihood the combination of machine counts and selected hand recounts is accurate. If a statewide recount occurs, given the likelihood that count errors will effect each party equally statistically, there is a 98.5% likelihood that a manual statewide recount will not produce a victory for Gore. If the statewide manual recount produces a victory for Gore, then the likelihood of its accuracy is 97.5%. So in this scenerio, a statewide recount could produce a Gore victory with a 97.5% likelihood of accuracy versus a previous machine count that gave Bush a victory but with an accuracy of level of 98%.
Again, there was merely an example and the results can be changed anywhere along the way except for what we already know to be true.
This seems like a do-able equation for you mathmatically inclined. It would seem that if this type of equation can be calculated, it would be highly beneficial to a candidate trying to prove his point and to all parties in determining the benefit to spending the time and money to perform an entire statewide recount.
What are your opinions? Can you make these calculations?
Thanks,
Jeff Fairey
The machines would be 100% reliable if the punch cards were perfectly perforated (i.e., no "hanging chad", etc.). That's where the "anomolies" lie. The reason the second machine recount differed is because some of the chad fell out of the punch cards either during or between recounts. The problem isn't with the machines, per se, rather it is with the punch cards.
With 1% of the vote recounted in one of the heavily Democratic counties (2-1), they had 6 additional votes for Gore, none for Bush. Thus, they would end up with approximately 600 more votes for Gore at the end of the count. Extrapolate this across the 4 counties that are recounting and you would end up with a Democratic president.
However, since the vote was essentially a tie statewide, if you recounted statewide, then you would likely end up in a similar scenario where we are now: a tie or nearly so. It's clear that neither of these scenarios favor Bush, as he either loses on one hand with the limited recount, or goes out on a limb with the coin-flip chance that he may or may not win the statewide recount (which, by the way, is the most likely outcome of this whole mess).
The hand recount is less reliable on one hand, since it is subjective and open to human error, whereas the machine recount errs only when the humans fail to present it with a perfectly perforated punch card. I don't see that you can assign probability to either of those events.
Statewide, since the vote was so close, the amount of errors should have been approximately the same percentage for either candidate, so this whole hand recount deal is a stupid mess. It's America's dirty little secret that the vote-counting process has always been far from perfect, but you can count on politicians to expoit that when it is to their advantage.
When all is said and done, the Florida Supreme Court will likely order the entire state to be hand recounted, and that recount is just as likely to blow up in Al Gore's face as it is to make him the next president.
First of all, Im not looking for a biased party affiliated answer, so please try and see my point and offer a intelligent, non biased, logical reply. Additionally, I did not even vote and don't really care who wins, so I am not trying to start a political argument or prove my bias.
Does anyone wonder why Gore is getting all the votes? I do, it casts doubt on the whole system. What does it suggest? Could it be...
1) The counting methods are very inaccurate and are therefore only reliable in landslides
2) The republicans have the abilty and resources to effective the voting outcome and this is only discovered through re-counts.
3) The Democrats are controlling the outcome of the recount process to serve their needs
4) The recounts are completely accurate and the results show the importance and necessity of recounts.
5) The recount is substantially correct, but the error percentage has fallen to Gore in a statistically improbable anomaly.
What is the lieklihood of each of the above statements being true or false.
Does anyone else find it strange that all the counts are consistantly benefitting Gore? You would think there would be a balancing of errors to both sides, yet Gore consistently is able to get more votes.
The whole process seems badly in need of review and re-structuring.
MHO,
Jeff Fairey
this is a partial reply to both of your posts.
first, there is no statistical theory that would suggest that you can calculate the probability the first, or any, count was correct with 97% probability. I am assuming that by correct you mean absolutely accurate. probability thoery only helps to calculate the likelyhood that you are within a certain distance of the true answer.
the fact that Al Gore consistently gained votes in the recounts is very suspicious. its suspicious because if there were random errors in the voting process, and I'm sure there were, you would expect that these errors would sometimes be in favor of Gore and sometimes be in favor of Bush. That Gore always gains votes in the recounts strongly suggests that there is some other non-random influence in the re-count process and that the recount process favors Gore. it is no accident that Gore is calling for hand recounts instead of machine recounts even though machines are about 2.5x as accurate as hand counts.
Excellant point. I meant to say that, but I was rambling.
I realize that it could only be a probablity. Could'nt it be a probabilty with a likelihood of accuracy percentage and a standard deviation?
thanks for your thoughts
ll
The reason is that punchcard ballots are more prevelent in Democratic areas of the state. The auto-recount narrowed the margins b/c more "chads" fell off after one run through the machines. Both candidates gained votes. However, there are more Gore votes in the punchcard areas, so Gore gained more votes.
Bust doesn't want a statewide recount, because most Republican areas don't use the punchcards and are therefore not subject to the undercounting problem.
Duval County used punchcards.
I would guess that since they are counting heavily Democratic counties, more votes had been cast for Gore and thus percentage-wise, more errors were also for Gore. If you have 70% of the vote, then theoretically, you also have 70% of the punch-cards that were machine-rejected. At least that's what his handlers hope ....
This is why I ask:
Many Casinos will hold Major Tournaments that offer no-limit hold'em events, but yet the same casino doesn't offer even ONE no-limit event during their weekly tournaments(low buy-in, typically around a $15 entrance fee), which would allow you to practice for the much more expensive no-limit events that are offered in the Major Tournament/s.
Hollywood Park Casino is a good example; out of the eight weekly low buy-in tounaments they offer, they have FIVE limit-hold'em events and not ONE no-limit event.(They do offer a sunday night $220 no-limit event, but that's hardly comparable to a $15 entrance fee tourney).
I'd say that NL is actually enjoying a comeback. Yes, there are few NL live games in the casinos, but the tournament schedule is still relatively healthy. As you noted, all major tourneys have NL events, with the final premier event inevitably NL. Also, most small limit tourneys play their final table in a NL format. Around the country, you'll find an average of one NL event per week in the casinos (those that run a weekly tournament schedule). For example, just this past week, I played a NL event on Sunday at Soaring Eagle in Michigan ($50 buy-in) and a NL event at the Horseshoe in Tunica on Wednesday ($15 buy-in). I believe the Stratosphere in Vegas also has a weekly NL tourney. You might check out the other major California casinos for some smaller NL tourneys.
Question: Is it logically possible to have the presence of an omniscient being or beings and for human beings to have free will?
but of course. see the book neverness by david zindell. (sequels are garbage, but this original book is more or less a modern philosophical work masquerading as science fiction.)
brad
At one time I would have said no, because I thought there were no random acts, only observers without sufficient intelligence to perceive the order in such act. I no longer believe this is the case. Now I believe there are random acts, and that the best an omniscient being could do would be provide the money line for human behavior rather than a prediction that was the stone cold nuts.
This enables free will, or at least the appearance of it. If I drink a beer after work, is it because I want the beer? is it because my brother stole my little red wagon when I was five and I'm self-medicating? or is it because of some randomly-firing neuron in the beer drinking portion of my brain? Hell, I don't know.
"the best an omniscient being could do would be provide the money line...rather than a prediction that was the stone cold nuts." (Paraphrasing) I like that one. The omniscient being would be the favorite going into the WSOP, I suspect.
There has been a big thread over on rgp about this under the "Pascal's Wager" subject which has grown to over 120 messages.
The short answer is no. An omniscient being would know the future. If the future is known then it is determined. If the future is determined it cannot be changed. If the future cannot be changed that man cannot make decisions that change outcomes. If man cannot make decisions that change outcomes than man has no free will and is basically an automaton.
To use a simple example. The omniscient being knows that 15 years from now backdoor is going to try and rob a bank. Right now backdoor has no idea what he will be doing 15 years from now much less know whether or not he will be trying to rob a bank. But since it is known that backdoor will in fact try and rob a bank it follows that backdoor must try to rob a bank otherwise the omniscient being would be mistaken which means he could not be omniscient. Backdoor has no choice in this matter and is merely following his pre-programmed set of instructions that the omniscient being knows all about. Therefore, backdoor has no free will since he cannot decide otherwise.
You can believe in an omniscient being. You can believe in free will. You cannot believe in both without having an internal contradiction in your belief system. Yet this is exactly what Christianity teaches us about God.
Does omniscience unequivocally imply predetermination?
Can you reasonably state that something is illogical without accepting the inherent implications of the statement? To clarify,
Statement: "Santa Claus cannot logically deliver hundreds of millions of presents in a single evening. It is against the laws of phsyics."
Rebuttal: "Yes but Santa Claus has magic powers so of course he can."
Reply: "That is an appeal to magic and is an unacceptable argument."
True, but in this case, as you can see, the whole statement is absurd and inarguable. You cannot state the orginal statement about Santa Claus without accepting that Santa Claus by definition has certain magical powers. Yes it is absurd. But, this makes the original statement about Santa Claus inarguable. Therefore it is not reasonable to state the original statement.
So making the statement, "An omniscient being and human free will are not logically compatable.", cannot be made without accepting the implication that an omniscience being is, by definition, likely to be outside our frame of reference and unbound by it. Thus, free will and omniscience are logically compatable. Or inarguable. One of the two.
Further, as to the first question, predetermination is not necessarily required to have omniscience.
"Does omniscience unequivocally imply predetermination?"
Absolutely as my example posted above illustrates. I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.
"Thus, free will and omniscience are logically compatible".
Not by any logic the human mind employs to comprehend reality. Since appeals to magic can prove anything they mean nothing.
When statements or ideas can be shown to be logically impossible and self-contradictory then they should be rejected and not incorporated in our belief system much less ever acted upon. I do not believe in Santa Claus because there is overwhelming empirical evidence to prove that he does not exist. I do not believe in an omniscient being because there is no empirical evidence to support the existence of such a creature and acceptance of this belief creates a situation where free will could not operate. I do however believe in free will because based on my experience I know that I make decisions that matter and influence future outcomes. Since free will exists than I am quite comfortable in rejecting the idea that there is an omniscient being somewhere. Now whether or not there is a God or some kind of transcendant being is an entirely different matter. The existence of God is quite possible. The existence of an omniscient being is not.
Good argument as usual. If you accept the following statement as being reasonable then I will concede your point:
"Santa Claus cannot logically delivery so many presents because it beyond our natural laws." If you agree this is a reasonable statement, and not inarguable because the statement itself assumes the existence of Santa Claus, then you are correct. If you agree that this statement is itself absurd, then... well I think you can draw your own conclusions. My argument does not appeal to magic whatsoever, it disallows yours doing so.
BTW, I do not believe in Santa Claus either, or an omniscient being for that matter.
...and about calling an UTG raise in the Bigblind with KJoff...?
Life is either probablistic, and our reason, judgement and decisions matter, or it is deterministic, and everything is "que sera, sera" and on autopilot. In the second case I escape blaming myself (good), but also have to realize that I live under a curse (bad). I prefer the first case.
"The existence of an omniscient being is not. "
It is interesting that those that those that claim they base their opinions on logic and proof make assertions that deny such.
"It is interesting that those who claim to base their opinions on logic and proof make assertions that deny such"
I don't know what this statement is based on. I believe I have demonstrated the impossibility of believing in both free will and the existence of an omniscient being. I believe that these two ideas are mutually exclusive based on the contradictions that result. I stated that I believed in free will and therefore rejected the idea of an omniscient being.
If you want to believe in the existence of an omniscient being that is fine. But then it is illogical for you to believe in free will. If you think you can believe in both I would welcome a logic based argument that supports this.
if you believe that 'will' can result in a random choice, then they are incompatible. to me that seems a weird way to define 'will'.
ie, you make a choice (or series of choices), and then if somehow you could 'take back a move', like in chess ( or if you live your life over and over, you get my point), then this would result in you making different choices ( in exactly the same situation).
so if this fits your conception of free will, then free will and determinism are mutually exclusive.
if that doesnt sound like free will to you, then i can post proof that determinism and free will are compatible.
brad
if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of the truth, then inquire. (if you wish to convince someone, agree with them!)
If I call your river bet and you win then I could have saved a bet by folding. My decision made a difference in how much money I won or lost for that session. If how much money I am going to win or lose in all future sessions is already known by an omniscient being, then how can my future poker decisions make any difference? Why should I even bother to study, work hard, and improve my skills if it does not impact my future earnings at the poker table?
I don't think anyone who applies themselves at an endeavor in order to improve believes that their future is already known by someone.
my point is just that if somehow your life repeated over and over, would you always call that river bet, or would you sometimes call , sometimes fold, and (i guess rarely) sometimes bluff raise?
if you always call, doesnt that pretty much point to a deterministic scheme of things, and if you make different decisions, doesnt that seem to imply that your so called free will is really nothing more than just a random hodgepodge?
note that it is only in the so called 'deterministic' universe that we can be said to have any sort of will that is intrinsic to our being, something that we define ourselves by. ( for example, a really big life decision, like to betray your family and live , or stay loyal and die. if you dont always make the same choice (in a thought experiment eternally recurring life), then what does that say about your character, your essence, your will ?
by the way i think you are completely correct that to believe our fate is in our hands, and really i think that this is our heritage as westerners, and overrides any academic argument. but its fun to philosophise.
brad
(n/t)
his point is that basing your actions on any rational scheme is equivalent, for the purposes of your free will, to believing in some omniscent being.
scott (who will fight tooth and nail for insanity)
I don't see how. See my response to Brad's post just above. If the omniscient being already knows how much money I will make playing poker then why should I bother trying to become a better poker player?
i understand what you are saying. i agree that a deterministic, purely or probabalisticly via quantum mechanics, universe renders will beyond repair. i also agree that will is great and very very important. however, to whatever degree you cling to goal oriented rational behavior you are emulating a creature without will.
interestingly, a major sign of mental health is goal oriented behavior. it's not good for progress for men to understand that all is for naught. it drives men to drink. only my quick feet keep me from the padded walls.
scott
i dont think free will and an omniscient being are mutually exclusive, for the simple reason that the *omniscient* being would know what choice you make, by definition. it doesn't neccesarily mean you didnt really have a choice. to make a rather out there thought experiment (you'll have to think about this one), suppose i ask you what you had for dinner last night, and whether you made a free choice. you reply that you did indeed choose , and you chose an italian restaurant. now i say, oh , but i have you -- you have no free will , you can't change what you had to eat last night. (see what i mean?)
and if im wrong, well, i would still rather think the way i do for purely aesthetic reasons :)
I agree with Jim's line of arguement, however what if there are an infinite number of universes. In one backdoor robs the bank and in the other he has second thoughts. The omniscient being would know all the outcomes, but backdoor would have a choice. Or is this just multiple backdoors following pre-destiny?
Just recently, both math and physics has had to come to grips with the fact that that even perfect knowledge of initial conditions along with perfect computational ability, is not enough to predict the future (Godel, Heisenberg, Mandelbrot). Thus it is certainly possible that a creator created this universe without knowing the future any more than we do. I'm not saying I believe this, but admitting its poassibility would make religions appear less foolish without any real downside to them.
"even perfect knowledge of initial conditions along with perfect computational ability, is not enough to predict the future"
True enough but not conclusive. Couple perfect knowledge with perfect ability and include perfect control of outcome, then maybe you have an Omniscient and Omnipotent entity. God, if you will. Someone elses, of course, not mine. vince.
FYI--some philosophers think that the concept of "free will" is consistent with determination. They're not nut-jobs, either, to answer your first question. I'm not saying I agree with these guys, just reporting their position. It arose when people tried to reconcile the (apparently) deterministic Newtonian physical world with free will (and with it, moral responsibility).
Now that Newtonian-style mechanics are (is?) out, this reconciliation may not be necessary. But if one assumes quantum mechanics etc. is (are?) the guiding physical force in the universe, and if one doesn't believe in something like a non-material soul, the concept of free will still is in big trouble. I can give you some references if you like. To paraphrase your thought above:
you can believe in free will, you can believe in the best current scientific theories, but you can't believe in both. This is what many/most philosophers think these days, anyway.
Questions like these are impossible to even consider without a lengthy preliminary discussion of the meaning of the terms involved. For example, some philosophers think that "freedom" (or "free will") is logically consistent with classical determinism. Some don't. These opposing groups obviously have different opinions on what it means to have free will.
Ditto with "know". You'd think these damn philosophers could agree on what that word means, but they can't. other things get dragged in--what does "determinism" really mean? what does quantum mechanics tell us about determinism? is an omniscient being even logically possible? what is logic? blah blah
I'm sorry to say that getting a PhD in philosophy doesn't help.
Anyone want to hire an umeployed philosopher?
crash,
all your points taken. my significant other is working on her PHD in philosophy. when I asked her about about this this all she said was, "Not again dear. Stick with Socrates, you will be happier."
The great thing about about Socrates was he just asked questions and claimed to know nothing. I love Socrates. None of this I know everything jazz. I like Nietsche too though so there goes that.
I sympathize with your s.o. My dissertation was a miasmic nightmare.
Check out cnn.com for a discussion of what happens on a tie vote. In Florida, it is decided by a drawing. If it comes down to a tie in New Mexico, it might be decided on a poker hand!
I am going to place my first order at Conjelco. I'm picking up Cloutier's no-limit book and Gambling Theory and Other Topics, but I would also like to buy a WSOP tape.
Since I've never even seen one I don't want to buy too many at one time, so I am wondering if there is any specific year that someone would reccomend? What is your favorite year for these tapes and why? You name it and I'll buy it. :)
1995 is a hoot, and 1998 is very instructional in showing how an experienced player can dismember a rookie.
Mark, my favs are the 1997 WSOP with Stu Unger considered the best ever and I liked the 1998 one with Kevin (the maniac)McBride coming in second look for Scotty Tells in this one.
DON'T I repeat DON'T waste your money on the 1999 Binions production it is so bad - instead get the discovery version. This is the WSOP that Noel Ferlong took apart several pros with his bold aggressive play.
All that said, I'd suggest getting them all - they are all entertainign and instructive.
Mark,
You will probably end up buying, borrowing, or taping them all.
1999 -- Discovery version has the great Hellmuth bit. "Called my raise with a QJ"
1998 -- Think there is a Discovery version of this one too. A classic. Scotty vs McBride.
1997 -- This is so sad. The ending interview with Gabe Kaplan should bring a tear to your eye.
1993 -- Very unusual. Watch this one or get it in your collection soon.
Discovery Channel will sometimes run their productions of WSOP, and ESPN (or 2) will sometimes run one of theirs at 2 or 3 am.
I enjoyed the 1998 one - Absolutely thought the 1999 one was a worthless advertisement for Binions.
Just some thought,
Michael D (Soccer/Sucker Mike D)
I like the first video with 1989-1991 (?) on it. You get to see Johnny Chan win and come in second to Phil Helmuth. 1997 is good as well with commentary from Gabe Kaplan and Phil Hellmuth. Note that Stu brags that he can beat anyone heads up but wins his final hand by sucking out. Also note that Stu always slowplays a pair of aces on the flop.
Better than any WSOP video is the 99 TOC. Also, the Late Night Poker series is better than any of the WSOP videos as well (but it's not the world championship).
Maybe I should be satisifed that we haven't had to put up with his vitriol lately, but I couldn't resist the opportunity to dismiss his ignorant elitism with the facts. Here are the nationwide demographics of this year's presidential vote:
- Gore won 59% of the vote among those lacking a high school education while Bush got only 36%
- Gore won 56% of the vote among those making less than $15,000 while Bush got 36%.
- Bush got 55% of the vote from married families with children while Gore got only 41%. Gore did, however, get 71% of the gay and lesbian vote.
- Bush won the vote among those 60 years or older by a margin of 51% to 46%. Gore did have a large advantage among those enlightened voters 29 years or younger. Unfortunately for the democrats, this group only comprises 17% of the nation and is the fastest shrinking age group.
- And one more thing I just heard on CNN. Bush got over 2/3 of the Florida overseas military ballots (excluding the 1,000+ that were thrown out by the democrat election overseers on technical grounds). But Gore did get nearly 100% of the 2,000 odd votes that were illegaly cast by felons in Florida.
It seems to me that if you are an uneducated nobody who never plans to do more than just get by in life you would want government to be more socialized.
If you are smarter than average, motivated, can take care of yourself and your family, and know how to make and save money you would want government to be less socialized.
Lets take Social Security for example. Wasn't that tax made up because some people in our country end up eating dog food in old age?
Since I'm intelligent, self-motivated, and plan on making and saving money I should want less socialization in our government?
CV
"Since I'm intelligent, self-motivated, and plan on making and saving money I should want less socialization in our government?"
Not to mention being under the age of 30. There are two possibilities. Either we won't see a dime from Social Security, or our payroll tax will be over 50% (as it currently is in France and Italy) by the time we retire. Anyone who tells you otherwise is misinformed or lying.
I'm fifty-four. My father got back seven dollars back from Social Security for every one he put in. I'll get back one for every seven I put in. Let me stop putting in now and they can keep the damn dollar.
Do I want my government to behave responsilbly? Correct me if I'm wtong, but didn't government spending, in light of the prospective surpluses, increase in the last year in absolute terms more than it has ever increased in peacetime in our history. And I don't recall hearing a syllable upon this from either Bush or Gore.
I used to be a Republican. In 1981, when the "Born Agains" told Barry Goldwater, the architect of intellectual conservatism, that he was unwelcome as a Republican until he accepted Jesus, I dropped my affiliation. The party of Lincoln became the party of self-interested knee jerks.
What we need are competitive think tanks, doing the research needed to make the changes required for a successful future. What we have are PR firms, obsessed with illusion, perception and devoid of usable substance.
I voted for Perrot twice. That's desperation. What will become of us?
x
Chris,
We should all want a government that is compassionate and wants to help those less fortunate than us. We should all want a government that puts people over corporations and the military industrial complex and begins allocating resources to programs that help citizens, not porkbarrel spending on useless military technology and other forms of corporate welfare. If we realigned our priorities that way, we would not have to choose between exhorbitant taxes and entitlements. Until we chill on spending money that only benefits those people and corportaions that are already wealthy, the conceived choice will be between the poor (who need help) and the middle class (who are asked to fund helpful programs), when in reality it is the rich corportations that are benefitting the most from the current state of our federal budget.
KJS
In this country the "less fortunate" are simply the less motivated. ANYBODY without serious disabilities can make a living in this country if they are willing to put in the work. It is ridiculous for us who aren't losers, to pay for the lazy scum who want to just slip through life by being lazy and mooching off others.
The words "punk rock" are ruined by their association with people like you. Real punks are part of a long tradition of protest against bad American values and injustice. You are heartless and lack any compassion for others. Who is the loser?
KJS
You are for using your "compassion", "concern for others", and cynicism as an excuse to advocate (partially) enslaving the most productive members of society.
On the road to serfdom and KJS is cheerleading all the way there.
p.s. What would an ivory tower busybody know abount "Real punk's" protest against bad American values? I thought real punks were anarchists. Socialism is the polar opposite of anarchy.
Michael,
I am not an ivory tower person. Why do people think they know all about folks from reading shit on the Internet? I am a working person who happens to have a master's degree. I am also a 30 year old person who is very much involved in what one might call a "punk" subculture in Seattle (although none of my friends use this term, really). To me that means leftist political and anti-racist/anti-homophobic activism, and DIY art and culture. That is it.
I believe in anarchism as an ideal. Saying that implies that I believe that private property is at the heart of many of the sociopolitical disagreements in the world that often result in real violence against real people, perpetrated by armies, police, and one's family and neighbors. I hate the selfishness that forms the intellectual underpinning of conservative thought. Our society cannot survive without an underclass to do the work necessary to keep the status quo. People demand Big Macs but hate the people that make them. That is not right. Either we pay people what they deserve to supply the work demanded by a hyperconsumer America or we tax the hyperconsumers among us to pay for the extra help needed by those who work but don't get fair pay. What other way is there?
KJS
PS. You really shouldn't insult African-Americans by implying that giving up an additional .01% of your paycheck to pay for a new tax is enslavement. Please.
p.s. you shouldn't insult every other ethnic group, including jews, europeans, asians, arabs, and even africans themselves by implying that only "African-Americans" have been enslaved.
KJS,
One fact: number of counties in the US in which someone making the minium wage can afford a one bedroom apartment: 0. Keep at it.
John
The government shouldn't force employers to pay people a living wage to flip burgers. For example: I can work hard and become an Electronics Technician, or make the same money flipping burgers. I won't have to worry about learning anything new if I flip burgers. Heck, I can work stoned so I won't be bored and nobody will care. Why bust my butt becoming a Technician?
I believe there should be no Minimum Wage, but I also believe we should have top-notch schools so that people have the chance to become more than Burger Flippers.
CV
The term 'minimum wage'...it makes me wonder why even have a 'minimum wage' if it is an unlivable wage (as of course it is).
People talk about flipping burgers if someone is broke. If they go to flipping burgers they will have to stay broke, get four roomates, take the bus, but all their clothes at the Salvation Army, and make the mainstay of their diet the disgustingly unhealthy discounted food their employer offers them. Then when they have an early heart attack they will really be up the creek because their health plan through BurgerWorld perhaps only pays 80%. If they then work another 200 years and save money by getting eight instead of four roommates they might finally pay off the medical bills. This is assuming they don't have another heart attack in the meantime.
That's an interesting statistic. I find it plausible but then again there's got to be some real cheap apartments or trailers out there. Would you cite a source?
Just look in the newspaper for the cheapest apartment available. Now add in unavoidable monthly expenses such as food, clothing, toiletries, misc., etc. This is your monthly expense figure.
Next, multiply the minimum wage by 40 hours. Subtract something for tax withheld. Then multiply that net weekly pay by 4.3 (the number of weeks in a month), and compare. If the figures balance, the U.S. Government has an accounting position open for you.
Tony,
Stat comes from Harper's Index, which does cite a source although I can't vouch for its veracity. M's source, though, works just as well, I think.
John
They are chock-full of true heart-attack grease and are, along with fries and soda, a major contributor to the fattening of America. It is especially sad to see the results of this effect in children. Add in the cruelty to animals, and I think Ronald McDonald has a lot to answer for.
Actually you are now confusing "punk" and "punk rock". Punk rock is the music, and like the music the punk philosophies also have evolved. There are various ways to look at this philosophy, but one of the main ones that any true punk will adhere to is DIY. This is true today and mostly in the past too (70's). DIY means Do It Yourself. Don't rely on others, big government sucks, let people take care of themselves and if they are too lazy then let them suffer the consequences.
I find it amusing that people who aren't even in the punk scene try to tell me that they know more about punk then me. Now I know that there are several people who are way more knowlegeable about the subject then me but I can almost guarantee that none of them are on this forum. I am at shows almost every week, play the music (drums in my band), and listen to heavy doses of the stuff everyday. Punk is a way of life. okay gotta run.
minimum wage working stiffs have the roughest time of all the classes it seems. it's not a living wage if one is to have a car with the mandatory ins. and not live with their mother.
a large block of peeps worked in factories until manufacturing plants all jumped overseas.
I find it amusing that people who only know folks from online discussion groups say things like this:
"I find it amusing that people who aren't even in the punk scene try to tell me that they know more about punk then me."
You don't know me from Jello Biafra. For all you know I could be Steve Albini posting in poker bulletin boards as some guy named KJS. I am not about to get into a culture war with some bozo who thinks that fuzzy guitar, tattoos and a backwards baseball cap makes someone a punk rocker, but I can't let this kind of ignorance go unheeded. Being punk is not about a scene, that is problem with jugheads like you who learn how to play drums and go to shows and elbow girls in the front row. You are terribly confused if you think that the rebellious elements that came together in real punk music are the same as the shit talking, homophobic, sexist, classist bullshit that mascarades as "punk rock" today. These "punk rockers" of today are trying their best to get legitimacy for music that exists only to make them rich. I don't want to be in any clique that would have you as a member.
KJS
ask former Texas governor John Conally how to blow a fortune.It seems to me that you are overly in love with yourself. Of course, if you have had eerything handed to you in life, like w bush, then who needs the government for anything other than running powder cocaine!
Hey anonymous coward. This belongs on the Troll Forum along with all of your other posts.
More racist, unqualified dogma. You are a pig. Bush Got over 50,000 votes in florida by having his opertives hand out pre-punched Bush Ballots. Have fun in Hell, racist pig.
I don't believe in hell.
you believe in White supremacy, though.Two plus two has become a den of racist neo-nazis. It is sad.
And you believe in cowardly, false, anonymous, and libelous public accusations.
Bill Clinton and Al Gore would be proud that you adhere to the party line: Anyone who has a difference of opinion that the state is the cure to all social ailments must be an evil racist.
You are a worthy attack dog and socialist bootlicker.
Glad to see the interchange of social arguments and that no one is engaging in petty vituperations.
Last night a situation came up which I have not dealt with in a long time, and I was pretty unsure of the play I made.
Fairly tough $15-30. A "typical" player (at this limit) open-limps from a middle position. Folded to me in the cutoff with JTs. I raised.
A few hours later after I got back home I thought about that play and I realized how easily I could have been dominated by a hand like KJ or QJ. But I guess at the time I felt that JTs was too strong a hand to just fold in that spot and so having decided to play, I felt that raising would be better than limping in order to "take control" of the pot and hopefully get it heads-up.
But perhaps a fold would have been best. After all I could be dominated by that middle-position-fairly-tight limper and it doesn't look like I'm gonna get the multiway action I want.
I am pretty confused about how I should generally go about playing this and similar hands (e.g., J9s, QTs, T9s) in these spots. Can you guys help me out? Thanks all, sucker
PS assume you know nothing else about the limper other than that he is competent and plays pretty tight. Also the remaining players are also "fairly tight."
You should repost this on the hold 'em forum, medium stakes to get more replies.
.
Was back in Tunica last weekend. Poker (and life) there is pretty darn good.
Horseshoe had a 20-40 game going the whole time we were there (thursday-sunday) and a must move game on friday and saturday afternoon and evenings. 10-20 had one or two tables much of the time. 4-8 always had a game going and sometimes 2 or 3. Saturday night had a 20-40 Omaha High game. A $200 limit lowball game was going sometimes and the PLO game was always on.
Gold Strike had their usual wild late night games at low (3-6 and 3-6 w/kill) limits. Then sunday early am as the games were breaking down, they started a 3 game rotation (hold'em, Omaha high, and O/8) game with $2 and $5 blinds -- Pot Limit.
The Grand keeps getting better. Their 2-5-10-10 game is still the mainstay, but they are now spreading 7.50-15 (yes, its 3-6 with $2.50 chips) and even a 15-30. Their friday noon tournament was great fun and afterwards; the 3-6 O/8 game was SO good, I had trouble getting my friends to leave and go back to the Horseshoe.
Back at the Horseshoe, its the usual cast of characters. Billy T. drawling that he is going to call in the FBI if anyone else draws out on him. Sandy wishing everyone else in the 20-40 game to "Have a nice day" What a great place!
One quick story. I am in the 20-40 and one of the guys in the game keeps getting referred to as "Vince". I think---Oh my gosh, is it, could it be? No such luck---he played WAY too good to be "our" Vince.
I'll put a couple of interesting hands on the Medium Stakes Forum tomorrow.
Abe
"he played WAY too good to be "our" Vince. "
I was wondering what compelled me to read this trip report from OUR Abe. My ears must have been ringing. Right? Hey Abe, I liked the report but is it always necessary to interject sex into your reports. Not all of us here on the forum are interested in a "Bi"-monthly report. Some of us are straight arrows my friend. Please be ,ore selective with your titles in the future. Also, I hate it when those fakes try to imitate me at the card table. I hope you set the imposter straight about using my name.
(yOUR)Vince,
Vince,
OK---you're right again. Poor choice of wording. Now I'll never use my bifocals again---and those bicentenial quarters, well they are going out too.
Won't have this wording problem next time, since I'm not going back to Tunica for 4 months.
The "imposter Vince" returned to Canada with several thousand in winnings. He was the best player at the table--perhaps in the room.
Abe
Abe- Vince Toch (sp?) is the greatyoung player from Canda that you referenced. he now lives in the Tunica area though and is dating Laurie, the tall brunette cocktail waitress who works in the poker room.
Vince is a geat player and very nice young man. Never gets out of line and is always respectful and pleasant to all the players, even when a real bad beat occurs.
He has been killing them in Tunica for many months now.
Diane
Good man, bad man? Albert Gore, George Bush? George Bus, Albert Gore? One of these two will be the next president of the United States. What about them? Are they both "good" men? Are they both men? Are they a little of both?
Both of these fellows are parents. They both have daughters. I'm not sure it's possible to have daughters and not be a good man. Well, that's not entirely true but in the case of these two it appears that they are both loving and caring parents. There is something to be said for that.
Al Gore has been in politics all his life. His father was a Senator and he followed in his foot steps. Pretty much the same thing for George except that he became a successful business man before following dear old dad. There is a lot of synicism in this country towards political types. When I was a boy it seemed that all grown ups referred to politicians as crooks. Then when I grew up Richard Nixon made a strong arguement for their side.
You know something, I don't know if either of these guys are a Good Man or a Bad Man. I don't in what way they will lead the country. I don't know which one will ultimately win. Given what I know about each of them I don't believe that there will be much of a difference in how I live my life over the next four or eight years regardless of which one wins.
What I do know is that I am a father of two sons. Both adults and on their own. I don't even have one daughter. But I know that if I did I certainly would want them to think that I was a Good Man and not a Bad Man. I would make a point of living my life in a manner that would make them proud. I sure hope both Al and George feel the same way.
Vince.
What to do on a long flight? I have twenty hours flight tomorrow,reading and drink alcohol(doctor tell me to stop).
What do u guys do?
I usually pop a couple (O.K., 5) Valiums and breeze off to the land of Nod. Next time you've got a big flight tell your doctor you're scared to fly and he'll doubtlessly hook you up.
ronzoni,
I hope you have an aisle seat. The big thing is to take breaks and walk around the plane and maybe stand in the back and do some stretching and stuff.
But GD's idea is cool too ;-).
Rick
Bring tapes/CD'S and listen to music that you enjoy. Bring a meditation tape to put you to sleep. And bring Zee books to really knock you out!!! I can't stand listening to crying kids on a plane or some know-it-all babbling about how great his business is doing. You might want to look into the emergency exit seat it gives you plenty of room in that empty seat next to you to get up and down and do whatever you want to relax. If all else fails pop a couple of sleeping aids that you can buy over the counter that include diphenhydramine that way you'll be disinfecting your body and sleeping at the same time.
paul
Mile High Club
1. Wear loose comfortable clothes (with 1 exception I will delve into)
2. Aisle seat
3. NO ALCOHOL....none!!! (most important) wait till you arrive then get blitzed.
4. Business class via frequent flyer miles
5. An baby asprin or 1/2 to a whole one every other day begining a week before flight.
6. Move your legs and walk around 1 every 30 minutes.
7. Drink lots of water (that's another reason for an aisle seat). Bring bottled of water with you, about 1 liter per 6 hrs or make sure the plane can supply you.
8. Melatonin, valium, quaaludes, ativan....forget about them all...bad news.
9. Eat lightly and often. Bring some candy.
10. Ear plugs might help, but I still like a casette with some nice classical and rock music over a CD player
Ratso,
I used to fly coast to coast all the time and agree with your suggestions. But you said avoid melatonin. A few years ago that was supposed to be the big natural sleep aid and I took it for a while but found it inneffective. I haven't kept up with all the latest health info but has there been new information out that it is in fact dangerous? I still try it once in a while along with the herb valerian.
Regards,
Rick
Theoretically, melatonin should work well, butthe evidence I have seen 1st hand tells me it ie ineffective. Part of the problem is that it must be taken 2-3 days before the trip and 2-3 days before the return. It also has some restrictions on what you can eat and drink (i.e no coffee,chocolate etc.). I do not think it is worth the trouble, although some swar by it.
When going to Europe I find it easier to just try to stay up when I get there until 9-10:00. Can adjust in 24 hrs-no problem. I usually cannot sleep on a plane.
I have no solution for going west except bring a book for when you wake up at 3:00 am, or be content to watch bad movies on the local channels.
Ratso,
Thanks. I won't waste any more money on Melatonin but at least it sounds like it is not dangerous.
Anyway, you wrote: "I have no solution for going west except bring a book for when you wake up at 3:00 am, or be content to watch bad movies on the local channels."
In Los Angeles there is the poker alternative. In the 1980's I used to often fly to Los Angeles from Rhode Island on company business. In many cases my work involved using a lab facility and my block of lab time was often scheduled to start in the afternoon. Often I would fly in the late afternoon from Providence and arrive in Los Angeles just after rush hour. I would go to my motel and generally get to sleep by eight p.m. PST which was equal to my normal bedtime back east. When I would wake up at 3:00 a.m., I would shower and head to the Bike and play until noon or so and work after.
One time around 1985, I walk in the Bike around 4:00 a.m. and they had what was then a huge jackpot for 3/6 lowball (The $4554 jackpot may have been topped by I never saw it even come close). They had many 3/6 tables going and people looked like they were up for days chasing it (lowball jackpots are MUCH easier to hit than holdem jackposts). I was fresh as a spring shower and before I could even get my coffee, I get a one card draw to a six four with a joker. I put in action before the draw and make my second nut.
After the draw a little old lady bets, I raise, she re-raises, I raise again, and she just calls. I show by second nut and she lays down the wheel! She still had a ton of chips and she only called. Anyway, we make the jackpot and the players who had been up for days could have killed me.
Maybe her play was plus EV. Those jackpots were so easy to hit that someone else could have beat us to it by seconds. Anyway, those 3:00 a.m. games were always very good to me ;-).
Regards,
Rick
In case you have missed it, Greg has made it to the final table at the 5K event at Foxwoods. According to the PokerPages report, he has 21K in chips and is the 3rd lowest stack. There is approx 390K total chips on the table with 9 players left.
Good Luck Fossilman!
Randy Collack
Excellent.
I have a 5% piece. Do you know the payout schedule and prize pool?
Dont know the payouts but 78 entered and Foxwoods added 20K to the pool so there is $410,000 to split. Congrats on your profit...I hope you make a bundle. Even though his stack is below average, with the blinds only 300-600 he told a friend of mine that there was plenty of play left.
Randy Collack
Not official....
1st $165,200 2nd $ 81,600 3rd $ 48,960 4th $ 30,600 5th $ 22,440 6th $ 18,360 7th $ 16,320 8th $ 14,280 9th $ 12,240
I just read on Poker Pages that Greg busted 2 guys out on one hand. He had trip Kings, and made a tough call on the turn when a player bet into the side pot with the board showing 4 clubs. Greg didn't fill up, but the guy had only a pair of queens, no club. Greg scooped the main pot too as the short stack had a7, no clubs.
Keep ot going, Greg.
I also know two of the other guys at the final table, Mike May and Jacob Horowitz. They are Diamond Club regulars that have had good tournament results. Both are great guys that I enjoy tangling with in our weekly pot limit game.
2 more bust
One for us old guys :-)
Funny I always got the impression he was in his 30's. I could be wrong, but it would be the first time.
i think he is about 40.
Greg and Curt Kohlberg have big stacks and Berry Johnston is short stacked. I hope Greg didn't make a deal yet, as he would now be in position to probably get well over 100k.
They are taking a break (maybe to cut a deal). Berry Johnston will probably drive a hard bargain.
I'm looking on the poker pages website but I can't find any articles on the final table of the 5k event at the foxwoods tournaments. I can find results for the other events but nothing on this one. Would you post the URL for where I can find the reports on the final table, or tell me how to find the information. Thanks.
n/t
Yo, dude. I can only assume you picked your name from the simpsons. Good work!
I am impressed with your name and your vitriol, please provide more information about yourself. Didn't your father tell you your name would make you popular?
a.
His vitriol is cromulent, and embiggens the forum.
You've also suceeded in getting the attention of the board of directors of the Young Turks. Please give more information about yourself.
but, don't tell anyone about this. Not your mother, Not Rex Banner, not anybody.
a.
Hmmm...this is the only important info I could think of.
Age-23 Location-Las Vegas, NV Favorite quote-"God, I know I shouldn't eat thee, but...mmmmm, sacrilicious."
Rex Banner...hmmm, in my day it was Race Bannon. And Haji knew judo.
Ah! Finally, an allusion I get.
/
Greg is co chip leader with three players left.
Thx. I posted below. They are taking a break, and maybe discussing a deal if there hasn't been one already. Greg is in position to get well over 100k.
I think it's absolutely terrific.
.
There is a blurb on the "forum" section of Pokerpages. He got busted by the other big stack when his A5 ran into a nut-flusing Ad2d, allowing Berry Johnston to slip into 2nd.
Unfortunately, no deal was made so this cost Greg over 30k.
I love a guy who plays to win, especially when that much cheese is on the line.
Congratulations.
Bummer, can't wait for Greg's report. Props to him playing for the win.
That Forum training pays off. :) WTG Greg.
congrats Greg. i knew you would start the big move up the ladder soon. i guess the real benefit will be the increase in fossil sales at foxwoods. ill get mine by opening a keno booth near you:) or maybe you would like to buy some nice property in montana so you and jack hoerner can get some t-rex bones off my back forty.
x
Greg,
Good Going!! Now I need a favor. Instead of being my seven stud coach, would you fill in as my no limit and tournament coach?
Regards,
Rick
x
x
*
Way to go Greg! Congratulations!
Randy Collack
...on the left for the herd begging to take a piece of your action next event. Nicely done.
x
Way to go!!!!!
Congratulations.
.
Normally, I don't like to jump on any bandwagon. Rules are made to be broken, however. Excellent job !!!!
Are you going to the tournaments at the Taj in AC. If so contact me please via my Yahoo site. TY
I really appreciate sitting here and reading the posts below cheering me on and congratulating me. It was great to move up from the short stack to 3rd, but disappointing to have the chip lead for a little while and then not win. But, I do have 48,000 consolation notes (minus 27% to my backers).
And, since I'm on the subject, a public thanks to my backers for their support. I'm thrilled that it paid off so well this time, and just wish all my backers from the TOC had still been in this one.
Here are a few key hands that I recall.
Key hand #1 - Jason V. outplays me and loses It is relatively early on day 1, and I am short-stacked, like T3,000 or less (we started with T5,000). It is folded to my small blind, and I raise with 76o to steal. Jason V. in the big blind calls. Flop is J85, so I have a straight draw. There are also 2 spades on board. I don't sense any particular reaction from Jason, so I bet the pot. He calls. I sense some hesitation in his call, but not enough of anything to be sure of. Turn is an Q, and I bet all-in, slightly more than the pot. Jason doesn't like it, but eventually calls. He says to the guy next to him that he hopes a spade doesn't come, because he's sure I'm drawing. The river is the 4s, making my straight. Jason is severely crippled, and goes broke a little while later. I felt bad for him, because he had taken a beating earlier, and had fought back from a few hundred to the T3K+ stack that I just doubled through.
Key hand #2 - We are down to 11 or 12 players, and it's late. The pace has been so slow, and it's taking ages to bust each player. Alan Miller is sitting a couple of spots behind me, and is one of the most dangerously low stacks at about 8-10K. I'm sitting slightly below average with about 29K at this point. One fold, and I raise with A9s. Alan hesitates a while, and then calls. My raise must have been to either T1500 or T2000, I forget. All else fold. Flop is AJ4. I check, as does Alan. Turn is a 5, I check, and Alan bets all-in. I call. Alan says "motherf***er", you must have me beat. It wasn't directed at me, but just a sign of his frustration. He had 88. After he called my steal, and that flop hit, I knew I was either way ahead or way behind, and didn't see any value in betting out at any point. I'm just glad I outflopped him and he bluffed at me. I knew he either had a pocket pair or a better A than A9.
Key hand #3 - Carlo (Sciannameo, not Carlos Mortenson) had been the big chip leader for quite a well when we were at 3 and 2 tables the night before. Apparently, he lost most of these chips to Curt, since Curt was the chip leader at the final table. Still, Carlo had something like 47K to start, and was clearly ready to come in and try to run over the table, which is his preferred style. He raised one of the first few hands, and I reraised all-in with JJ. Flop included a J, and I showed my hand. He never showed his, but was moaning and groaning, as if he took a bad beat. However, I doubt he had QQ or better.
Key hand #4 - Carlos the shortest stack is on the big blind, with 25-30% of his chips in the blind. Carlo raises in early position, I reraise with KK. Carlos thinks a long time, and then calls all-in. Carlo reraises me, and I reraise him all-in. He calls. I think the progression was 300-600 blinds, then raised to 1500 by Carlo, 3500 by me, 9000 by Carlo, and 40K all-in by me. So, unlike the pokerpages report, there was no action postflop. The flop was K32 all clubs. The turn was a middle club. I showed my KK, and Carlo said he didn't remember if his black Q was a club or spade. Carlos looked grim, and probably hadn't given up only because he knew another club would create a tie and save him. River was a blank, and I knocked out 9th and 8th places, and took over the second place spot in the chip counts.
Key hand #5 - I put Berry Johnston all-in while 4-handed with K6 top pair. He has KT, top two pair. Oops. I almost pulled off the runner-runner straight draw with the 6.
Key hand #6 - I raised from the button with JTs. Curt reraised me a lot from the big blind. I went all-in. He thought a long time before folding. It was clear he gave me credit for a big hand, and I think he might have folded as much as AK there, though AQ or JJ are my top guesses.
Key hand #7 - I put Berry Johnston all-in again. He had been coming over the top of my steals, and I had been laying them down. This time I took a stand with A9, and he, unfortunately, wasn't bluffing. He had AQ.
Key hand #8 - Berry Johnston all-in again. We both have AQ this time.
Key hand #9 - I might have this one out of order. Curt has been aggressive, overly so. I make a play back at him with A4s. All the money goes in on the flop when I have the nut flush draw. The final raise was by Curt, but at that point, I had committed so much of my stack that a call was mandatory. No spade came, but an A hit the river, which was enough. It was at this point that I may have taken over the chip lead. Berry had chips at this point, so if I were the leader, it would have been something like 150K for me, 140K for Curt, and 100K for Berry.
Key hand #10 - Berry Johnston all-in again. I limped from the small blind with 22. He checked. Flop was Q32 rainbow. We both check. Turn was 5, putting a flush draw on board. I bet, he raised all-in, I quickly called. Oops, he has A4 for the wheel, and the damn board doesn't pair. I was so sure I had him, too.
Key hand #11 - Curt has been raising pretty much every hand. Mostly from the button, which means it's Barry's big blind. I kept waiting and waiting for Barry to make a move on him, but he hardly ever did. Basically, I would lose chips to Barry, who would lose them to Curt, who would sometimes lose them to me. I had been going down from my peak at a slow but steady rate, and had about 100K at the start of this hand. Curt raised to 8K from the button, blinds being 1.5/3. I raised to 24K from the small blind with A5o. Curt just calls. I know with high confidence that this does NOT mean he's now trapping with a big hand. Curt had never missed a raise all-day when he had a big hand, to my knowledge. The flop comes 774 with two diamonds. I bet 75K all-in. Curt calls without hesitation. Now I think I'm losing to a 3-outer, becuase he must have something like 88 or 66. Nope, he has Ad2d for the flush draw. The Td comes on the turn, and I'm out.
I'm sure some of you will think I overplayed this hand, but if you were there, probably not. I'm sure that Curt's call of my preflop reraise to 24K was a terrible play on his part. It's just too bad for me he caught a flush draw. How often does a 2 or a flush/flush draw hit the board? I'm sure he folds to my all-in bet with anything less (except for an A hitting, which is fine, since my kicker is ahead more often than he hits his).
Anyway, it was a lot of fun being cheered on by the crowd. My wife got to leave our daughter with a friend for a few hours and watch me play. I looked over at her after hand #9, and I thought she was about to pass out. Still, her opinion of me playing poker has changed dramatically I believe, which can only be good for me. She's been asking me to start planning my trip to the WSOP, and also whether I'm going to go to AC for some of poker at the Taj. Twist my arm. ;-)
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Congrats Greg and excellent report. Sounds like the action was pretty tough when it got down to three handed.
For those of you who didn't see Greg play, you should know that he handles himself with grace, poise, and style, and shows much good humor towards his fellow players. Not only does Greg play well, but he conducts himself under pressure even better. Again, congratulations, Greg.
John
Nice to read what happened, and especially nice to see you did well. Hope you get down to AC for the Taj tournaments. It was a bit cold down there this weekend but lots of people in the casinos.
Congrats. Haven't you ever found it a bit strange that every time you have a big hand, some big name player has a slightly better one? This is one irony that never fails to escape me at the big tourneys.
The popularity of the WWF astounds me. Why does anyone care about scripted wrestling matches between steroid addicts that usually end when someone else runs in and hits one of them with a chair. (and for most of the show they aren't even wrestling, just screaming into the microphone)
But this XFL thing is a step further. The USFL, CFL, and WLAF were dismal failures. Who wants to watch third-rate football? College football is different since (1) there are some NFL star-caliber players, and (2) people have stronger attachment to the teams. But who can the XFL possibly get to play for them?
Not to mention the timing. They start play in February, which means that their season will overlap with March Madness, the NBA and NHL playoffs, and the beginning of baseball season.
And on top of that, put teams in New York, Los Angeles, and the Bay Area, all areas where most people don't care about pro sports. Then put teams in Birmingham, Memphis, Orlando, and Las Vegas, all of which are tiny markets.
It all adds up to a complete flop of a league. You heard it here first.
Just like the WWF, they are marketing steriod-driven machismo, violence, bigotry, and misogyny to 18-30 year old males. You may be underestimating the appetite of this particular demographic for the "thug life".
It ain't a sport, it's an attitude. And it's pretty freakin' scary.
You are a big wuss.
"Just like the WWF, they are marketing steriod-driven machismo, violence, bigotry, and misogyny to 18-30 year old males. You may be underestimating the appetite of this particular demographic for the "thug life".
what the hell are you talkin about? maybe you should go watch some "intelligent" TV, like Frasier or something. lol. better yet, make a tax deductible donation to the NRA. After all these years they are still protecting your constitutional right to shoot your television.
What's a "wuss"?
Don't antagonize with these stupid questions
When it fails we can get back to "sports" like roller derby, midget (remember that?) and girl wrestling. I wonder if they will put "chick" slap fights on the TV...
What's that you say? They already have that. Oh, I almost forgot the afternoon shows like Gerry Springer.
Kinda tell syou how dumb the people really are, so is the election really a surprise?
The WWF is the best show on TV. I shed a few tears the day Mick Foley retired. Fortunately they still have him on as the Comissioner.
you're the wuss.
scott
Shut the F up. I'm all man. Understand?!!
sure doesn't sound like it, cry baby.
scott
With Governor Jesse Ventura as the announcer, XFL and Vince McMahon are gonna kick ass!!!
"No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
Like him or not (and I don't) Vince McMahon has very deep pockets and is one of the most successful media promoters of the last 20 years. This gives him, I think, a pretty good shot at being successful. All he needs to do is buy 1 superstar from the NFL and make him the cornerstone of an XFL franchise. Given that there is no other football on TV at that time, especially on network TV, I will probably watch.
The historical evidence of competition in professional football is against him somewhat, but let's not forget that the AFL didn't just die off. Nor did the ABA. All he's gotta do is grab one Dr. J, and he'll get viewers.
And as far as third rate football goes, I would rather watch an exciting football experiment and spare my wrath for "first rate" teams such as the San Diego Chargers, who should be forever banned from the NFL for sucking so very very much.
I'm using Turbo Texas Holdem V3.0 and I've noticed a quirk that is fairly important. Here's what is happening. I am trying to edit the profile for Advisor_T so that he will limp in UTG with JTs. I go into the profile, go to screen 2 for pre-flop, change the UnG raise box to ** (I'm going to stack the deck so that UTG always gets JTs anyways) and then save the profile as something new. Sounds good right?
Well, it's not working and I don't understand it. When I set up the situation using the new profile (ie. I stack the deck so that UTG always has JTs and UTG is always the player I have created) and he always RAISES just like Advisor_T would do. I've tried blanking the whole screen 2 with ** and he still raises with this hand. I am sure that my lineup includes my created player since I can see him in the game. I double and triple check the profile and he should be folding the hand. What the hell is wrong? I tell it to fold and it raises, what good is it as a simulation tool?
I used TTH 2.0 before and everything worked fine, this is the first time I've tried this with V 3.0.
I'd call Wilson. You might also try the 4.0 upgrade.
It was a great 10 day winning streak that ended on day 11. The SPM fighting hard to protect the any two card players. The SPM as defeated by his own lack of ability, to hang tough in the Valley of Patience.
The Valley of Patience (VoP)is a lonly place filled with rag hands that must be destroyed immediatly. In the VoP you will find lonly hold'em players wishing they could get in the action, but they hang tough and wait for the correct time to strike with the battle cry "RAISE!"
In the VoP, not all raises a respected, and as the great weWille, the greatest out of town player ever born, says, "the cards have no respect for talent." The SPM's rasies were called and defeated with any two cards on day 11.
Finally after days and hours in the VoP the Suburban Poker Man was evicted, for calling with rags. It wasn't his fault, He saw the Chairman of the Board, Mr. Soccer Sucker, call a raise cold at the cut off with J10 unsuited. He annouced he was calling with a weak hand, and by the river he had 10's full of Jacks. How does he do it? The sucker always sucks out when he plays rags, even tho he has the biggest house in the VoP.
Well that's the whole truth, went on tilt and broke the streak. Now they want me to fill out a new application for a domicile in the VoP.
SPM, ...looking for some references...
Poetry and Logic combined!
I just read Poker Digest and it stated that David and Mason will no longer be apart of the magazine. I was a little bit upset about this because I really enjoy the articles you guys have to offer. I hope you will be doing some more articles and if you are how can I get a hold of them.
Thanks,
Dice
YOU BOYS LET ME GET OUT OF THE TRAP ONCE AGAIN, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!! JOHN,LIN,RUSS,MIKE,JOE,FRASIER. YOU GUYS CONTINUE TO KEEP LETTING ME GET OUT OF THE TRAP. HA! HA! HA!
Hi Mike,
You sure have lots of opinions. How come you don't include your email address? ;-)
Anyway, mine is included. Please email me yours. I want to discuss something with you.
Thanks
George
PS: If this message violates the rules, sorry. Just take it down.
As many of you have seen, there has been some difference of opinion here regarding the proper social response to those in poverty. I advocated some compassion and governmental spending on social programs and was told I was not compassionate, but cynical, and advocated slavery. Another poster said "It is ridiculous for us who aren't losers, to pay for the lazy scum who want to just slip through life by being lazy and mooching off others."
For the sake of discussion, a very simple explanation of how labor functions in our advanced capitalist society might be:
a) people demand inexpensive goods and services
b) businesses seek to provide these goods and services at a profit
c) businesses seek to guarantee a profit by controlling labor costs
d) businesses control labor costs by paying low wages
e) people need jobs
f) people take these low wage jobs.
What I have a hard time understanding is how people can be part of a society that demands that industries that depend on low wage labor (agriculture, fast food, retail, janitorial, etc) exist but fail to see that they result in a class of working poor people.
The way I see it, we can triple the minimum wage and demand that employers provide benefits, or we can tax corporations and individuals to provide the social programs needed by the working poor.
What other intelligent solutions do people advocate?
KJS
Scully,
Don't have time now, but quickly, tripling the minimum wage and increasing taxes will only cause an equivalent rise in prices and equivalent drop in spending, creating more poor. The luxury tax was a disaster. LBJ's "Great Society" was an American Holocaust.
Some one-liners. Education needs to teach kids how to think, not feel. Two parent families must encouraged at all costs. The unspeakable failure known as "The War On Drugs" must be ended immediately.
Bill
Education is one big key on keeping people out of minimum wage jobs. There is only so much you can do for people if they don't do things for themselves.
Like the guys that I take money from when I play Poker. I've told them time and again that I study and post here and that if they want to win they need to start doing the same. I've told this to them for years but they still loose money at the game. What am I supposed to do, force them to learn to win?
CV
Chris,
Do you think minimum wage jobs will go away if everyone got a good education?
KJS
Apparently my education is not serving me well tonight. My statement should read:
Do you think that minimum wage jobs would go away if everyone got a good education?
KJS
Minimum wage jobs will always be around, and teenagers who really don’t need the money to live off of fill most of these jobs. Forcing employers to pay livable salaries for unskilled labor actually hurts the unskilled because the employer will now only take people who are worth the inflated minimum wage. It also means that certain minorities may be forced out of the workplace due to possible prejudices of the employer. The theory is: Instead of the minority working for a lower wage the minority will not get hired at all. It would be interesting to find out if minimum wage increases actually contribute to a higher Black unemployment rate.
CV
I recommend reading Out of Work by Richard Vedder and Lowell Galloway.
Randy
Your premises are very contrived.
s
Check the premises:
"For the sake of discussion, a very simple explanation of how labor functions in our advanced capitalist society might be: "
We don't have capitalism in the US, we have a mixed economy. You cite evidence for this yourself: minimum wage laws and social security.
"a) people demand inexpensive goods and services "
Under captialism, "people" don't demand. They trade for goods and services.
"b) businesses seek to provide these goods and services at a profit "
True most of the time, but not always. For example, a businness may be willing to trade profits for market share.
"c) businesses seek to guarantee a profit by controlling labor costs "
No guarantees involved. And there are many other costs of doing business other than labor.
"d) businesses control labor costs by paying low wages "
Not necessarily true. Only as one example, many businesses use automation to control labor costs.
"e) people need jobs "
People need the freedom to be able to trade for goods and services. This might be the freedom to start a business of their own.
"f) people take these low wage jobs. "
Low wage jobs may be what the jobs are worth. If the wage is too low, the employee will go somewhere else.
"What I have a hard time understanding is how people can be part of a society that demands that industries that depend on low wage labor (agriculture, fast food, retail, janitorial, etc) exist but fail to see that they result in a class of working poor people. "
Logical error here. You are making "People" responsilbe for the actions of the society they live in. Also, see above, society can not "demand" under capitalism. I suspect that "a class of working poor people" is factually inaccurate as well as rhetorical.
I guess my stab at simplicity was too simple for you. C'est la vie.
KJS
One thing that is for certain under our system (I'll call it capitalism even if you wont) is that it requires unemployement. We need a labor surpluss. Any economist will laugh at you if you tell him or her that we can have full employment. We also need wage/income disparity among those who are employed.
Obviously the system then needs some losers. The question that KJS seems to be asking is, if the system requires losers (poor) then shouldn't society make sure that the losers don not lose too badly? That they have some basic standard of living that we morally think all humans should have?
This is the premise of a social-liberal democracy.
Paul Talbot
x
There will always be poor and it is not a sin to be poor just a state of mind and situation. I have seen poverty around the world and if you think we have poor here you have another thing coming - I have seen poverty in India, Thailand, Mexico/Central America and Indonesia among other places.
We have the richest poor in the world our poor have color TV, air conditioning, cars and comfort only middle class and rich enjoy around the world.
Here is some food for thought for the bleeding heart liberals. In post war Germany all the wealth was distributed to all the population on an equal basis inside of TWO years all the wealth was back where it was pre war and the rich were once again rich and the poor were poor AGAIN - a few years ago 31 bums were thrown out of a SanFrancicco park they sued and each was awarded $130k inside of 6 months all but 2 were back in the park as "homeless" bums the 2 no shows probably died from OD of life style.
GO FIGURE.
The poor are necessary - you can't have joy with out sadness, feel good without pain and rich without poor.
I agree that people are sometimes (often?) predisposed to be in the situations they are in. That story about the bums blowing an eightth of a million and being bums again is astounding. Is there a documentable source that I can cite? I want to use it.
I am sure if you research SanFrancisco news papers you will find it - I believe it took place 5 or 6 years ago I will look around for any documentation on it and pass it on if I can locate it.
This was also discussed in great length on the Rush Limbaugh show at the time it occurred so his archives may be a source for it too.
I'd hate to use Limbaugh as a source. This is the guy who called Gorbachov a con man and said glastnos and perestroika were a trick. Then the USSR collapsed. He is the only person I ever heard of who favors global deforestation. All his "factual" statements seem dictated by his agenda, ex: there is no deterioration of the ozone layer; the sheep in New Zealand are developing cataracts for some other [unexplained] reason.
Rounder,
I agree with you. It bothers me that people don't give respect to those that do the work in society that we all benefit from, but pays poor wages. The net result is a need for government programs to help those working poor with housing, medical insurance, food allowances, etc.. Still, I hear many conservatives assail those who espouse this type of spending, as if they are Lenin-incarnate and are ruining are country. These conservatives want it both ways--no poor and no help but cheap labor everywhere. It just doesn't add up.
KJS
The bus drivers went on strike in LA. There are bus drivers that make over $60,000, is there any way in the world a bus driver deserves to make that much money? The uneducated, dropouts, etc. serve a needed role in society. In much the same way losers are needed to support poker.
Why do poor people always smell like sour milk?
Because all you think of is stuffing your face, Chode Boy!
Stan
[muffle] [muffle] [muffle]
Ha Ha Ha!! Good one Kenny!
Stan
I would never get close enough to you to find out
Very thought provoking, K... Thanks
As another poster mentioned, tripling the minimum wage would drive up those low-costs, and we'd be in the same boat. I do not think that many fail to see that low-wage jobs as a result of the demand for low cost products creates the working poor. I belive that some feel that way. Ususally folks that feel that way are either from a privledged class, or have had some form of opportunity that others do not have.
This is a complicated problem, and a few observations first. 1. Government funding for social service programs is declining steadliy. The government wants more but gives less. Trust me. I work for a large social service agency, and each year government wants more services from us (as contracts - fees for service), gives less money, and demands greater time consuming accountability (which drives up internal costs).
2. The working poor are in a difficult cycle. They tend to make too much to receive some form of aid, yet not enough to truly make ends meet.
3. Privledge begets privledge. Bush, quite frankly, is not very intelligent. Should he really have been in the Ivy League? (Please, no political rhetoric on this one, I am just citing a current example).
That said, being somewhat Libertarian in my views, I do not belive that Government should be so involved in our lives. I do believe that social service agencies, such as my own, can be very effective in breaking cycles of poverty, homelessness, domestic violence, etc. In an ideal world, I would not have a job - there would be no need.
For those who think that all folks who rely on some form of aid, either from government or from private agencies, are lazy - they are fooling themselves. IME, MOST people who seek aid do so as a last resort, and it is often temporary. Welfare is a fraction of our taxes. Corporate welfare MUST end - that costs the taxpayers FAR more than social welfare, and the social costs are unbelievable. A corporation moves into community A, who gives them 10 years of tax breaks. Community A's population increases, and 2,000 jobs are created (often unskilled labor positions - they move their managers in). After 10 years, the corporation moves to Community B who will give them a break. The cost? Community A is devestated - It now has 2,000 more individuals, 2,000 less jobs. The landscape is marred with subdivisions, and the State now assumes the costs of supporting these people. Now, this community has lost twice - once from lower or no taxes, again from unemployment, welfare, etc. This happens - Look at parts of Morristown, NJ - See the environmental impact throughout central NJ. Look at Dallas, TX in 15 years.... Corporate Welfare costs more to taxpayers than an individual does. Do not let the politicians and corporations fool you.
What can we do? 1. Keep going the way we are, witness the death of the middle class. 2. become socialist. 3. ? 4. ?
So far, none of this appeals to me personally.... hmmm..
Let's face it - some have more opportunity than others. Saying "If you work hard, etc. you will achieve the American Dream." Bullshit. That is a dynamic employed by the means of production to keep the modes of production complacent. How often does that REALLY happen?? A poor minority from a harsh environment like an inner city does not have the same opportunity as an upper middle class majority from an affluent area. A poor white kid from some coastal town in Oregon does NOT have the same opportunity as a kid from the West Hills of Portland. They do not see the same environment (culturally) around them - that in and of itself is enough to prevent one from succeeding. Yes, some of it is in your attitude, but if all you know growing up is a bunch of other poor people, you may think "why try?" Poverty begets poverty. I do not think that is lazy - I think that is all you can really do - your surroundings create your reality, and if all is bleak around you, you don't have the tools to even KNOW how to escape - how can you really succeed?
blah--- sorry this is so long,but I havent spouted in a while... Thanks Tim
Why don't we make a law that says if you don't make a certain amount of money you cannot reproduce. Since being born into poverty could be considered a form of child abuse.
CV
As much as that idea makes me cringe, I do agree with it... The issue for me is that it goes right back to more government intervention in our lives (tho, I assume you are only half kidding). I automatically mistrust any law that is there to protect me (drugs, seatbelts, speed limits, helmets, etc.) I wear my helmet and my seatbelt because I WANT to. I don't drive 100 mph because it is unsafe, etc...
And the argument usually follows that "well, others are not that rational."
fine. push them to the side of the herd...
but i digress.... tim
Yeah, I'm half kidding but someday it may come to that.
CV
Tim,
Thanks for the response. I was hoping that you would weigh in on this, knowing about your employment background.
As you can imagine, we agree on the effect that corporate welfare has on schewing the effects that that minute spending amounts for social services seem to have on the total amount of taxes paid. Take away corporate welfare and we would all pay less taxes and be able to keep funding social services. Here in Seattle, I pay a tax everytime I go out to eat to pay for Safeco field, which is owned by a private corporation and was voted down in a citywide election! That and people still say they are overtaxed and so let's cut funding for subsidized housing.
I dislike government intervention in people's lives as much as the next person. In an ideal world, people would be compelled by compassion to give money to service agents that help people who are in need. Obviously, we do not live in that world. That said, I am not comfortable just pulling the rug out from under the poor by cutting what little spending is currently dedicated to helping them. So, I guess that leaves me in a position where I advocate taxation and government spending, but dislike the government. What alternative is there: cross your fingers and hope that people give up their money voluntarily? What current or historical model do we have for the success of that idea? I would love to see one. Anyone?
KJS
There is no evidence in my mind that tax and spend has enhanced the position of poor people. I think you are making several erroneous assumptions:
1) Increasing government spending must necessarily enhance the state of poor people.
2) Governmnet allocation of resources is effecient.
3) Government has a responsibility to develop and implement solutions to social problems.
4) Poor people should be subsidized by government with no strings attached.
I will say that I have some problems with the Fed regarding their stance on employment therefore I agree that there is at least one government agency that doesn't want full employment or wage increases. However, having government artificially subsidize wages is probably a bad idea. Artificial constraints have proven to be non sustainable and basically makes the problems worse IMO if history teaches us anything about them. My hat's off to you for your compassion regarding the poor but I think that you place too much faith in government and politicians.
You make a lot of very valid points.
An area which I don't think has been given enough attention is the devestating effect of NAFTA and GATT on the unskilled and even to the skilled manual worker. I overheard a former boss of mine talking to some salepeople, where one of the salesman said something to the effect of, "We can sell it for so cheap because labor over there costs a dollar a day. It's not a sweatshop, that's just the cost of labor over there." If the manufacturing facilities were located here there would be higher production costs and higher costs of good resulting in lower volume of sales and smaller profits. This is the same argument that some make against raising minimum wage. Yes it would slow down the economy. Perhaps it would be a worthwhile trade in the long run.
Another factor is that the wages for some very demanding jobs, like kitchen work, drywall installation, wholesale nurseries and other agricultural jobs, are lowered by the large supply of illegal immigrant labor. Many of these jobs even in the southeast have been filled by illegal immigrants for over ten years. The Pappas chain of restaurants in Houston settled a multi-million dollar lawsuit a couple of years ago because they would only higher Mexicans for the kitchens. The size of the illegal labor force is rarely appreciated and its impact is downplayed. For the jobs listed above, I don't think that these markets would get filled by US citizens at their current pay rates for a variety of factors, chiefly cultural ones and the availability of social services. If these jobs had to be filled by citizens prices would rise, in some cases dramatically, and again it would slow the economy down. Unfortunately, this market correction is unlikely to happen and these wages will not be determined by the market, but hover right above minimum.
Akin to what Rounder was saying, it must be realized that the term "the poor" and "poverty" are relative terms. Depending on how we define poverty, there will always be poor people. Contrast this to using absolute terms -- eradicating poverty vs. guaranteeing all workers earn at least $15,000 per year (note that I'm not advocating the latter).
It is intellectually dishonest to portray conservatives as heartless carnivores who care nothing about the plight of the poor. Conservative's disavowal of the mainstream liberal methods of minimizing poverty is taken as a disavowal of minimizing the poor. Liberals who disagree with our methods for minimizing poverty are constantly engaged in a barrage of fallacious ad hominae.
Rarely are issues so cut and dried. Two of the Left's favorite "saviors" of the working class poor: labor unions and the minimum wage. Conservatives are honest enough to admit that the working class who actually get to partake in these institutions are benefited. But we realize what is constantly ignored or downplayed by the Left: both institutions have the effect of increasing unemployment. They thereby help some, but hurt others -- the net effect is subject to debate. Conservatives believe they hurt more than help.
When feeling the urge, KJS, to characterize conservatives as cold-hearted bastards insensitive to the plight of the poor (or perhaps even reveling in it) remember that it was the Republicans in Congress who persevered long enough to pass welfare reform. This legislation has been a tremendous success in combating poverty.
Jon I.
P.S. Your assumptions regarding the functioning of our labor market could use some thinking.
Jon I.,
I am not trying to paint all conservatives as heartless. I only repeated the words of certain conservatives on this particular forum. I admit that there are alternative views on how to minimize poverty. I am glad to see a post like yours that speaks to my question with some forethought. I know that there were conservatives out there who do not think that the poor are lazy, loser scumbags, but rather espouse a different approach that the so-called liberals. Thanks for the response.
I think the jury is still out on welfare reform, but that is another topic, and one I am not feeling armed with the right facts to tackle it yet.
I know my statements about the labor market were terribly simplistic and I could do better. I just wanted to find a quick way to show where I was coming from. Feel free to make suggestions.
KJS
Interesting posts!
I agree so much that poverty is learned, and a state of mind. also give the rich and poor an equal amount, inside of a short time the poor will be poor again.
My puzzlement is not the wage, but the cost of housing. in the 60's 75.00 was about min. wage takehome pay, and rent was only 30-60 bucks a month.
Nowdays, min takehome is about 180. a week. But how much is rent, utilities, first, last and security? that's right! about 4 or 5 times as much as a weeks pay as opposed to 300/60 as it used to be.
back then you could job-hop, have a 4-5 year old car and ins. and walking around money to drink beer and shoot pool with.
It would help to have sliding scale housing (30% of income) for the low limit workers separate frome the welfare crowd with all them babies and stuff.
60's worker from factoryland. How much is rent in taiwan? t
The government of China announced today that they are immediately donating 50,000,000 doses of viagra to the United States,in response to published news reports that America is unable to successfully achieve an Election.
Rounder,
You got it all wrong. This is American politics in it's finest hour. We will have a President and we won't kill anyone while we're doing it. Sometimes it takes a little patience, kind of like waiting for a good starting hand in hold'em.
SPM, ...able to see beyound the comic relief...
The hell with the viagra...can we trade it in for nitroglycerine tablets??
Has anyone else had problems getting on RGP thru Deja?
This morning the page layout and thread trees are all wacky and different than they were 8 hours before.
When I click on RGP on my home page, I get results for "*", starting from 10/17, not just the initial thread titles, in descending order.
Is there another reader to use?
I had the same problem early this morning. It appears to be okay now.
Mine's still screwed up.
Now I am having the same problem you have and that I had experienced earlier but was previously corrected. It is back to providing message listings from 10/17/00. Is there anyway through the "Search" mode that you can get the listing by the most current message?
Not how it should be. When I typed in "poker", I'd get some of the thread starts from newest on down, but also all the replies.
Something's fried, when I clicked on the thread link of a message Daniel N. started it took me to some football scores one. Bizarre. Wonder if people like Fossilman, David, Badger or Razzo are having problems.
..hope the message shows up there.
can anyone tell me the web address for RGP, please?
The "rec.gambling.poker", "forum" and "thread" link buttons, both on the board and my Deja pages.
Ain't taking me where I wanna go. The "rec.." one gives me "results for "*" " in the header(the messages begin w/10/17) and a "*" in the search window.
I have always had trouble with Deja. I found some free Newsgroup websites that work fine. The only problem with them is that they are read only, you cannot post replys. I use: dp-news.maxwell.syr.edu and gail.ripco.com
Subscribe to rec.gambling.poker when connected.
As of 7:48 pm (Pacific Time) or 10:48 pm (Eastern Time) the rgp link is still malfunctioning. All I get is a detailed list of messages starting from 10/17/00. Is there an rgp help desk?
Don't you have outlook expreess?
(n/t)
Outlook is microsoft's email and newsgroup reader.
Pretty much every windows OS has Outlook with it. If you browse with Explorer you should have outlook. If not you can download it in an upgrade.
If you use Netscape, click on communicator (or collabra discussion groups on some versions) and you should be able to access RGP (go to file and then subscribe). I access it through netscape and much prefer it to Deja.
I'm not familiar with any other browsers but they should all have newsgroup access.
Or you could go old school and access nn if you have a unix interface.
Paul Talbot
I prefer the netscape communicator news reader to outlook express. Though I don't currently use it, most folks like Forte free agent even more. It's a separate newsreader that's a free download (try google to find it). But I see Jim is on MSN, and I seem to recall hearing that their news server is no good. Anyway, if your ISP has a decent news server, then accessing it with a newsreader is much faster than using deja.
to using MSN as an ISP by one of those $400 rebates? If so it was about his first bad call ;-).
Regards,
Rick
Yes, I got a $400 reduction from Best Buy on the cost of my emachine (etower/500id). When I tried to access rgp through the favorite links on 2+2, I got back a message about the inability of my browser to handle newsgroups. I then set up a favorite links using the deja-vu call letters (right terminology??) on my msn home page. I usually have no problem accessing rgp that way until recently. Now when it logs on to rgp all I get is a listing of individual messages going all the way back to 10/17/00. This has been a problem over the past 20 hours. It is very upsetting because I am in the middle of a debate with Gary Carson and Steve Badger about the McEvoy book and what they say about the blinds.
Is there a toll free number to call rgp or deja-vu or whatever? I gather others like BillM are having the same problem.
Jim,
I would guess that since you have MSN as an ISP you must also have Outlook Express. I would use this for newsgroup access. I'm sure Microsoft has pre-configured things to make it easiest to set up.
My ISP is Earthlink and they don't try very hard to tie you in to any particular home page and so on. But the news server isn't perfect either. Many times I will find posts that appear later than they should (I may see the response before the post). This is a function of the quality of the ISPs newsgroup server and not the email/newsreader program you use. Note that there are third party companies that provide specialized newsgroup access for a yearly or monthly fee. Abdul thought Newsguy was good about a year or two ago but I never did sign up although I did check out their homepage on the web. It seemed like a pretty small outfit.
When you use www.deja.com you are going through the web to get to the newsgroup. But deja is remaking itself as a consumer opinion portal and seems to be putting newsgroup access and archives on the back burner. Their archives are no longer as complete or as easy to use as they were two years ago. Of course, www.remarq.com used to be an option also.
I use Forte Free Agent as my newsgroup reader. Once you get it set up and get the hang of it you will find it very powerful. But it might be tricky to set up with MSN as an ISP. The link to the download is as follows:
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. Watch out for those rebates. They are trap hands ;-).
Jim,
You wrote: "Is there a toll free number to call rgp or deja-vu or whatever? I gather others like BillM are having the same problem."
RGP (rec.gambling.poker is just a newsgroup, of which there are about 25,000 or so. It exists electronically and I would guess it can't be contacted in the sense that you are speaking of. Abdul would know a lot more about this than me as he was a newsgroup moderator and I think set one up for Blackjack (which anyone can do, I think).
Note that www.deja.com is a company that runs their web site for profit. They are evolving into a consumer opinion site and have put newsgroup access on the back burner. They are supposed to restore all the old archives but I wouldn't hold my breath on that one.
I just used Forte Free Agent to look at the Gary Carson thread that you were involved in. Using this software, I was able to highlight the thread and download all the messages so they pop up instantly on my machine. Because of your problems with access, Badger, Carson and That's Hersh have gotten the last word in on everything that you wrote. BTW, I agree with you.
You should download Free Agent and install it. The key to setting it up (other than customizing the text size and stuff) is to make sure you have the name of your news server and mail server in the OPTIOINS - GENERAL PRFERENCES - SYSTEM menu. In my case it is news.earthlik.net and mail.earhlink.net. That info is stored somewhere in the control panel (I can't find it right now and it is getting late) or in Outlook Express or you can call your ISP.
I will be home tomorrow morning and should be home Friday and you can email me if you want or need help.
Regards,
Rick
I'm a grandpa for the second time, November 22, 2000, my first grandson. 5 pounds 5 oz. 19 1/2 inches long and hung like a bull.
SPM, ...able to leap tall odds with a single card...
s
Something to be thankful for!
5lbs, 5oz? IF this was a different forum you could nickname him Presto. Since it's twoplustwo maybe you could come up with a better nick for a sidekick to the SPM. Maybe Kid Oz? Any others?
Congrats!
Paul Talbot
Congrats SPM!
Fidster :^)
Phil,
Congratulations! I will keep you all in my prayers. Also, love your posts - even if I take the brunt on a few of them. Keep up the good work.
Happy Thanksgiving,
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
wow..hung like a bull..you sure you're related?
just kidding..congratulations, SPM
about the size of the last dolly varden i caught.
http://www.nypost.com/news/16617.htm
I thought liberals were peace loving, brotherhood embracing, tolerant, diversity celebrating friends to all mankind.
Oh, wait, no, they're just the Left, the place where Mussolini, Stalin and LBJ came from.
Plus, we're talking about Clintonian liberals. Utter scum, saved only from the bottom of history's barrel by LBJ's unfathomable depths.
I hope this gets huge publicity. Al Gore should immediately denounce this. Bipartisanship, right.
Sick. No wonder nobody good on either side goes into politics anymore.
This has been out there for about a week now. Gore has supposedly disavowed these tactics but I'm sure he wouldn't mind winning this way. It seems that everyday it gets worse but I expected it so I'm not surprised in the least. I actually heard Democrats on MSNBC last night stating that they wanted the Florida Supreme Court to set a new deadline for having the latest recount completed. Here is the ironic part I actually think that it will happen but I hope I'm wrong. If it doesn't happen look for another ruling that gives Gore a big boost.
You Moron. Fascists like me(Hitler, Tojo, Prescott Bush) come from the right wing. You should serve years at hard labor for suggesting anything other. You obviously have no political education. Teaching you the proper way to think would be fun. By the way, I voted for Dubya Bush. He is just like me (an elected fascist).
.
GOP reach new lows. GOP governor in the state with the most disputed ballots; Bush co-chair is the one making the decisions n ba;llots; Republican canvassing boards deciding the ballots; Seminole County; Cuban thugs in Miami Dade; altered ballots in all counties. I hope Bush wins and you all get what you deserve....the stupidist President ever. Jim Baker will run the country. BTY, whose secretary is he?
Irrespective of political parties, is Bush Presidential? No way anyone with an IQ over 90 would think so. If you think a Republicans should be President, I'll accept that, no problem. But if you think Bush is even the least bit Presidential material, you better get tested
>>GOP reach new lows.<<
Maybe.
>> GOP governor in the state with the most disputed ballots;<<
I haven't seen this statistic anywhere that Florida has the most disputed ballots. Do you have a source? Let's not forget how the recounts started. Florida law mandated the first one and Gore requested the recounts of the recounts to try and get enough votes to overtake his opponent in a very, very close election.
>>Bush co-chair is the one making the decisions n ba;llots;<<
She has the job of certifying elections not making decisions on what ballots should be counted.
>> Republican canvassing boards deciding the ballots;<<
The canvassing boards where Gore requested the recounts of the recounts have a majority of Democrats on each one.
>> Seminole County;<<
This is still in court.
>> Cuban thugs in Miami Dade;<<
Huh? I think I know what you're referring to but the Dade county officials stated when the started their recount of the recount that it would take them until December 1, 2000. This was before the Florida Supreme Court handed down their decision. Their actions seem consistent to me.
>> altered ballots in all counties.<<
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Of course there are both Republican and Democratic counties.
>> I hope Bush wins and you all get what you deserve....the stupidist President ever.<<
I believe he is intellectually at a higher level than Reagan so I'm not sure this means anything about being a good president. I find it amusing how many people refer to this Ivy League graduate as stupid.
>> Jim Baker will run the country.<<
Doubtful.
>>BTY, whose secretary is he?<<
I don't think he's anybody's secretary.
I'll say it again.... You have to have some brains to graduate from Ivy league schools. Bush did, so why are you so sure that he is so stupid? It doesn't make any sense- at least back up your reasons for saying why you think Bush is an idiot.
Sorry for bringing up this horrible topic. Sherrice Iverson was the little girl murdered at the Primmadonna in 1997, at ~4:00 a.m., by a teenager who'd been drinking, while her father gambled. It was the natural conclusion of the unspeakable campaign to market Vegas as a "family vacation destination" during the mid 90's. Yes, I lived in Vegas in the mid 90's.
I did a search; the latest news I found was that killer Jeremy Strohmeyer was denied a new trial last February. I also know that a Good Samaritan law was passed in Nevada, and that minors' curfews are much more strictly enforced.
Does anyone know anything more? Was the Primmadonna fined, security people fired? Has Sherrice's mother's lawsuit been settled? Has anyone lynched that maggot David Cash, Strohmeyer's friend who did nothing?
This was one of the worst things I've ever heard of. The Primmadonna should've been heavily fined/license suspended, and Cash and Sherrice's father ought to be in the same hole as Strohmeyer, underground.
Bill,
Here is one link.
Just One Link to Sherrice Iverson
Then go to www.google.com and type in the young lady's name for more links. You will also get plenty of links at google if you enter the following into the query box:
primmadonna sherrice iverson
It was tragic indeed.
Regards,
Rick
Thought I would pass on some observations from the Great White North on recent events in the Excited States.
Although the President thing is still in doubt, there is...
1) A dead Senator going to Congress. (sort of)
2) a fake President on TV played by Martin Sheen.
3) a new Senator from NY who used to be the boss of the man who may end up President.
4) A Governor from Florida who is the brother of the man who may end up President and the son of the man who was Pres.
5) A sitting Pres. whose wife will now be hanging out with the guys who voted to remove him from office.
6) A senior Senator from South Carolina who could technically be appointed President in this standoff despite the fact he's 98.
7) A state where a Republican Secretary of State and a Democratic Attorney General try to determine the outcome of 25 electoral votes without appearing to be partisan.
Hey, it's not like we're without our own political embarassments...
1) A Prime Minister who is not above picking up the phone to tell the head of a bank to give a big loan to a friend.
2) A former Prime Minister who dropped F-bombs in Parliament, flashed the finger to reporters and the public alike, and dated Barbra Streisand while his ex hung with the Stones.
3) A provincial Premier (kinda like the Governor) who in his prevous incarnations as a TV reporter and Mayor freqented prostitutes and chilled with the local bums in a seedy downtown hotel.
Ain't politics grand? About the only good stuff coming out of all this is The Spin Room on CNN. Hope you get this all resolved by January. President Thurmond? Has kind of a nice ring to it, doesn't it?
Dunc,
What are "F-Bombs"? Email me if if violates the posting guidelines.
Regards,
Rick
PS Will get back to you in a couple days on that problem with your student.
One day in the House of Commons, Trudeau was enduring the usual endless session of hassles and questions from the Opposition. After one particularly inane question, he silently mouths, "F&%# You" across the floor at his inquisitor. Sets off a firestorm of protests and outrage.
When questioned outside the House after the session, Trudeau says tounge in cheek that what he really said was, "Fuddle Duddle". Press had a field day with it, and it sold a pile of t-shirts over the next couple of weeks. For all his faults, and he had a bunch, Pierre did have his moments.
Christmas is around the corner and I’ve already figured out what I’m getting for others but making up my own wish list is actually more of a problem. I mostly stick to books since my body shape is so weird you can’t buy clothes for me and I hate useless junk (if I see another talking bass I will go crazy). So what I do is make up a large list of books then I usually receive a subset (we have a budget) of that list to keep some element of surprise. Plus I usually get another surprise or two. This seems to work pretty well.
What I am looking for is book recommendations. In fiction, I like decent stuff of all types but not the kind of weird, esoteric stuff only academics like my friend John Cole reads. History, politics, reference works, writing manuals and things like that would be great. Forget about poker books, I have almost all of them and the ones I don’t have are already candidates for the list.
If anyone has any suggestions or favorites, please fire away.
Regards,
Rick
Fiction - George Bush, Dark Prince of Love
Writing Manual - Style, Ten Lessons in Clarity and Grace
History - A History of Warfare
Politics - The Redneck Manifesto
Tony,
Thanks! I have checked out all of these on Amazon. My thoughts:
Fiction - George Bush, Dark Prince of Love - Sounds funny as hell, but I’d rather read one about “Dubya”
Writing Manual - Style, Ten Lessons in Clarity and Grace - This looks great so I added it to my Wish List
History - A History of Warfare - I read Keegan’s history of World War Two. This one seems almost too broad. I might go for the book on World War 1 by Keegan. I’m also looking for a decent book on the Battle for Okinawa, especially one that includes the naval battle (where American ships fought off Kamikazi’s). My Dad served on a destroyer doing picket duty (Keegan said this was the most dangerous Navel duty during the war). . Politics - The Redneck Manifesto - This is a definite maybe but most of the material seems familiar to me. Maybe it is because I am part redneck.
Thanks for your suggestions!
Rick
Best book I read in the past 2 yrs were:
Politics of Rich And Poor--Kevin Phillipsand
Bright Shining Lie -- Neil Sheehan
Ratso,
I loved "A Bright Shining Lie" by Neil Sheehan but was disappointed in the TV mini-series.
Regarding books about the Vietnam War, have you read the novel "The Short-Timers" by Gustav Hasford? The movie Full Metal Jacket was based on this book, which some say is the best ever written on the war. It is out of print but when I used www.google.com to check the spelling on the author, I found a site that appears to have the entire text. I downloaded and read half the first chapter. Since the author is dead, I wonder if this site violates some sort of copyright.
Anyway, here is the link I found:
Link To Online Version of The Short-Timers by Gustav Hasford
Regards,
Rick
Great site. Already dl the text of the book. Thanks
Looks like The Short Timers has a cool, he man kind of cover. So I think I'll read it.
John,
This site is very mysterious and so is the book. If you have time, go to google.com and search for the book, the author, the movie "Full Metal Jacket" and combinations of these three (or any other keywords you can come up with). This novel has quite a following despite being out of print. I am wondering what this web site is all about where you can read the book online. Is it legal? Is it connected to the late author? Who knows?
Regards,
Rick
Wolf Willow A History,a Story, and a Memory of the Last Plains Frontier by Wallace Stegner
Ed,
I checked it out on Amazon. The paperback version comes out December 5. It looks great so I added it to my list.
What to you think of Larry McMurtry and "Lonesome Dove"? I've read it but wonder what a real Montana banana thinks of it ;-).
Regards,
Rick
You may be sorry you asked, but...
A Confederacy of Dunces, John Kennedy Toole. You might find it slow at first, but stick with it.
Going After Cacciato, Tim O'Brien.
Citizen Soldiers, Stephen Ambrose. Post D-Day European theater.
Travels, Michael Crichton. If you've ever had wanderlust.
Revolution in the Head, Ian MacDonald. If you like The Beatles, I promise that you will like this book.
The Heart of Rock and Soul, Dave Marsh. Rock and R&B singles heaven.
A Walk in the Woods, Bill Bryson. Hiking the Appalachian Trail.
Bird by Bird, Anne Lamott. Good to read if you think you might write fiction.
All selections guaranteed, or my next NFL pick of the week is FREE! CD/Album recommendations given on request.
crash,
Believe it or not, I read your first two and liked them both.
Citizen Soldiers, Stephen Ambrose. Post D-Day European theater. This was already on my list (it was a carryover from last year - we only get a subset to keep some elememtn of surprise).
Travels, Michael Crichton. If you've ever had wanderlust. I've had plenty and used to do a lot. Unfortunately I'm pretty tied down right now and may go crazy if I read it.
Revolution in the Head, Ian MacDonald. If you like The Beatles, I promise that you will like this book. I was more of a Stones fan.
The Heart of Rock and Soul, Dave Marsh. Rock and R&B singles heaven. I'm getting into classical now. Anything about Mozart?
A Walk in the Woods, Bill Bryson. Hiking the Appalachian Trail. Check out the beginning of this review from Amazon: "Your initial reaction to Bill Bryson's reading of A Walk in the Woods may well be "Egads! What a bore!" But by sentence three or four, his clearly articulated, slightly adenoidal, British/American-accented speech pattern begins to grow on you and becomes quite engaging." It takes four sentences to get interesting. Give me a break! Since I have a one minute attention span, I should be into about the fifth sentence and will like it. It is on my list.
Bird by Bird, Anne Lamott. Good to read if you think you might write fiction. This one went on my list. But aren't my posts fiction?
All selections guaranteed, or my next NFL pick of the week is FREE! CD/Album recommendations given on request. I only bet sports when my friend comes over and I take five or ten percent of his action. I learned not to go against my friends when at a Super Bowl party my tiny bet was a winner while they must have lost about $15K between them.
Regards,
Rick
If you liked Tim O'Brien, try Tomcat in Love. Pretty funny.
I, too, am a big Stones fan. It seems like I'm listening to Exile on Main Street constantly these days. You might check out:
The Rolling Stones (It's Only Rock and Roll: Song by Song) by Steve Appleford. It goes through the albums--you guessed it--song by song and talks about their geneses, influences, etc. It may be out of print now, I found it in a used store.
If you're looking for a Mozart biography, try:
Mozart by Maynard Solomon. Somewhat long but I loved it.
I was kidding about the NFL picks. I neither pick NFL games nor bet any sports games. Well, that's not entirely true, I sometimes bet one dollar on Monday night games just to annoy the local bookies.
Rick,
Try:
Immortality by Milan Kundera (novel)
Red Scare... by Griffin Fariello (oral history of McCarthyinsm)
Visiting Mrs. Nabakov by Martin Amis (essays, pretty good one on playing HE with Al Alvarez and Tony Holden)
Sound and Fury... by Eric Alterman (politics)
No Place of Grace... by T.J. Jackson Lears (history)
The Mystic Chords of Memory... by Michael G. Kammen (history)
all ... above have long subtitles I left out.
KJS
Rick,
Me esoteric? C'mon. I read non-fiction almost exclusively these days, but right now I'm working on Blood Meridian by Cormac McCarthy. It's superb. Check out Roddy Doyle, also.
For non-fiction, The Spirit Catches You And You Fall Down is a brilliantly written look at the clash of cultures within the California medical system. A Beautiful Mind by Slyvia Nasar is a great biography. I also recommend The Memory Palace of Matteo Ricci.
For writing books, Joseph Williams' Style is a good as anything; also, it's been released in a much cheaper version. The Elements of Style, of course, should be on your shelf. Other good ones are Writing Well by William Zinzer and Richard Rhodes book on writing, which, I believe, is called The Art of Writing.
I also like memoirs, and Frank Conroy's Stop-Time is absolutely superb.
A personal favorite, which almost defies categorization, is Bruce Chatwin's In Patagonia. (Which reminds me that I need to throw it in my car for M.}
None, I repeat, none of these are really esoteric.
John
Definitely Cormac McCarthy, although I think I prefer the border trilogy to Blood Meridian (and I'm not really a fan of anything before Blood Meridian; Child of God, Outer Dark, any of that Gothic Appalacian crap).
If you want a truly awesome read I must direct you to "Snow Country" by Yasunari Kawabata. It's also a superb winter book, although I understand you don't really get a winter down in SoCal.
I just started "Ceremony" by Leslie Silko, and so far that's pretty good also.
Stay away from "Leaving Las Vegas" (the book). I just finished it last week; it's really a dud.
What was the name of the Frenchman who wrote "Elements of Style?" Or do I have him confused with someone else?
GD,
My old copy ($1.95) has the very non-French sounding William Strunk, Jr. and E.B. White listed as the authors.
Regards,
Rick
John,
Why don't you let me borrow your copies?
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
Anytime. By the way, let me also recommend the political novel Sounding the Waters by James Glickman. It came out at the same time as the novel by that guy "Anonymous," but it's much better.
Also, I'm thinking of reading some James Salter. Ever read him?
John
John,
Why don't you get "Light Years" and I'll get "Hunters" then we can trade ;-).
Rick
Cormac McCarthy is my favorite author bar none. Blood Meridian has been described as apulp Western written by an Old Testament prophet. All the Border Trilogy novels are good too. I must disagree with GD though, I think his Appalachian novels are also well worth reading. The best of them, Suttree, is his second best work, and has the finest ending of any novel I've ever read. It gathers and handles tremendous force. And the worst of his Appalachian books, Child of God, is still better than most.
I've got to agree with you about Stop-Time as well. I read an old paper back copy that I found in my father's books about 15 or so years ago. I was somewhat surprised to find out that Frank Conroy was still alive and writing when his second book came out a few years ago.
Rick, I should be putting the rest of this in the higher sub-thread but I'll finish off here. I'm not well read in Military History, however I'm a big fan of John Keegan. A History of Warfare is a very broad and general work. It is written to be a counterargument to Clausewitz's claim (central to much of 19th and 20th centuries understandings of politics and the military) that war is the continuation of policy by other means. It shows that this is not the essential, or even the original, understanding of war, but rather a cultural belief that has emerged with devestating consequences.
Another book to recommend on history, journalism when it was written actually, is Eichmann in Jerusalem. A great work on the absolute banality of evil. I ha ve not read the Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis, but there is much in Eichmann to support the depiction of hell as a vast and orderly bureaucracy.
I've read the first 2 books of the border trilogy which I got as a gift. They were awesome. I would put All the Pretty Horses in my top 5 books ever. I just bough Cities of the Plain and look forward to reading it.
I think you'll like Blood Meridian. It's gripping and will give you lot's to think about. It's based on a couple of historical accounts that are availible but harder to find.
McCarthy shoots some pool. Don't know if he plays poker.
Also liked the Keegan recommendation. His Face of Battle (?) is a classic and sometimes shows up on the B&N remainders tables.
"Joe" - Larry Brown
"The Universal Baseball Association" - Robert Coover
"The Fountainhead" - Ayn Rand
"Different Seasons", "Salem's Lot", "Roadwork", "The Long Walk" - Stephen King
"The Chess Mysteries Of Sherlock Holmes" - Raymond Smullyan
Unfortunately, "Alice In Puzzle-Land" by Smullyan, and "The Biggest Game In Town" by A. Alvarez are both out of print.
BillM,
You wrote: :"Joe" - Larry Brown: This one sounds great. I put it on my list.
"The Universal Baseball Association" - Robert Coover I've developed too much contempt for the modern day mercenary baseball player and team owner to ever pay for anything associated with baseball again. Every time I here a baseball player millionaire whine about something I want to choke them.
"The Fountainhead" - Ayn Rand How could you think I haven't already read this one :-).
"Different Seasons", "Salem's Lot", "Roadwork", "The Long Walk" - Stephen King" My wife has every King book and I've read about half or them. The Horror!
"The Chess Mysteries Of Sherlock Holmes" - Raymond Smullyan" The problem is I don't remember the rules of chess except for the fact that the "horse" moves like a seven.
Unfortunately, "Alice In Puzzle-Land" by Smullyan, and "The Biggest Game In Town" by A. Alvarez are both out of print." I've read The Biggest Game in Town. I probably have as many poker books as Mason ;-).
Thanks for the ideas. That's one more on my definite list.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
A knowledge of chess rules is not necessary for "Mysteries"(there's a brief refresher at the beginning) and "UBA" has nothing to do with real baseball. It's about a guy who invents his own game. It was written in 1968; it's awesome.
"Joe" is absolutely on par with "Deliverance", if not better. Please let me know what you think of it.
Bill
Mistake on my part. One does need to know the basic rules of chess in order to read "Mysteries". You don't need to know any strategy, or stuff like that, though.
...and you would too: Inside the Sky: A Meditation on Flight by William Langewiesche (Yes, all great books begin with the word "inside".)
John,
You wrote: "Yes, all great books begin with the word "inside"."
Could you name one other?
Regards,
Rick
Could you name two others?
John
"Inside Outside: A Novel" by Herman Wouk
"Inside Outside" by Phillup Jose Farmer
Rick
There ya go. :)
"Inside Outside" by Ray Zee The Professional way to CUT a golfball.
ukw
outside in as you hit them.(slice)
Inside Out with a block on the left hip causing dfr's with a cut.
i read his other book, stick and rudder, but its such old stuff although the planes aint changed too much. mine is 30 plus yrs. old and im working on a 50 year old one now thats been cracked up a few times. i just like the fun of popping into a sand bar and stopping in a few hundred feet and getting out to go fishing. getting out isnt so easy.
Ray -- This one is by the son of the author of Stick and Rudder. He's been flying planes since his dad taught him as a kid, and has done some commercial flying etc. The book ranges from semi-philosophical thoughts about life viewed from the cockpit, to discussing the Bombay 747 crash from a few years back, to harrowing adventures he's had flying in storms and shuttling shady characters into Mexico. It's fun reading.
I'd suggest books by Don DeLillo. The best is probably White Noise.
x
Deadbart,
It's on my list. Thanks.
Rick
"Liar's Poker" - not about poker, it's a first-person account of Wall Street in the 1980's.
"Speed Tribes" - about subcultures in Japan - yakuza, bikers, neo-fascists, meth dealers, teenage motorcycle thieves, hackers,...
"Me Talk Pretty One Day"
"High Fidelity"
"The Name of the Rose"
"Into Thin Air"
Three books I've read in the last couple years that I am particularly fond of:
1. "The Great Game" by Peter Hopkirk. Probably the most well written history that I have read. A 500p book describing the people and events of the contest for Central Asia between Russia and Great Britain. Amazing history. This is the stuff that inspired Kipling's "Kim"
2. "Europe: a History" by Davies. A big tomme but very well written with lots of interesting side stories. A great book to keep by the bedside and read a little bit each night.
3. "Allah's Mountains" by Sebastian Smith. Smith did an insane thing and wrote about it. He spent the first Chechen War (1994-96) running around with Chechen fighters. Mixing in history of the region with decriptions of battles and interviews with Chechen leaders, this book does an amazing job bringing a contemporary event to life for those far away from it. Really an amazing book about an amazing experience.
Fiction- Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand; All the Pretty Horses, The Crossing, and Cities of the Plain by Cormac McCarthy.
Non-Fiction: Endurance: Shackleton's Incredible Voyage by Alfred Lansing (do not confuse with other Endurance titled books).
...my inane responses this thread would become a great suggested reading list for everybody - unless you guys were "dumbing down" for me :-) . Maybe Chuck can develop a "delete Rick Nebiolo" filter.
Anyway, thanks for the great ideas so far and keep them coming. I decided to make a MS Word document and cut and paste everyone's responses and keep it for reference.
Regards,
Rick
The delete Badger filter proved simple enough.. :)
Have you read any of Carl Hiiasen's novels? Good if you favor dark, sick & twisted humor. The bad guys always get it in the end. The good guys always get it in the end. Most recent was "Sick Puppy." If you're interested, it's best to read them in the order written. That way you'll understand why the Governor of Florida is living in a swamp eating road kill.
Which reminds me of Donald Westlakes "Humans." God decides to destroy the earth; he has no further use for it. Satan decides Earth is his favorite playground, comes to the rescue...
Phat Mack,
Love your choices throughout. Hiaasen's wickedly funny, a Disney hater, and an environmentalist. I've seen him on TV a couple times, and his comments about Florida state politics are especially relevant right now.
Also, I used Sack's The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat in a course on writing and memory, and the students loved it.
Regards,
John
Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea is a must. you can e-mail me for other Gold Rush titles.
most American History buffs tend to focus on Civil War and World War 2. just as colorful is the Revolutionary War period. start with Barbara Tuchman's The First Salute.
Oliver Sacks was the protagonist in the movie Awakenings starring Robin Williams. his An Anthropologist on Mars and The Man Who Mistook his Wife for a Hat are terrific.
Pauline Kael was the New Yorker film reviewer/essayist for decades. For Keeps is an ample "best of" (first published in 1994).
I still believe James Salters' Light Years is one of the finest novels written by an American in the last 30 years and the more recent Snow Falling on Cedars by Guterson is also right up there.
if you've never bothered with Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories, give 'em a try.
used books are typically priced at 1/2 the in-print price so you might consider gift certificates.
P.S. I heartily recommend The Anarchist Cookbook in case the wrong guy ends up in the White House ;-).
Go to Amazon.com and pull up the Anarchist Cookbook. The author, William Powell, has got an interesting message up there.
And in the book he sounds so hardcore. I guess it really just is the hormones and after 35 or so...
Oliver Sacks is a great choice. In addition to the books mentioned, anyone with an interest in Deafness or deaf education should check out his "Seeing Voices."
Another science writer whose books I invariably find interesting is John McPhee. His "Control of Nature" contains information applicable to anyone living on a mountainside in California, the banks of the Mississippi, or near a volcano in Iceland. Great entertainment for the rest of us...
My favorite fiction has been Time and Again by Jack Finney (who also wrote The Invasion of the Body Snatchers). It's about a man who goes back to NYC in the late 1800's and is wonderful.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684801051/
One of my favorite non-fiction works is The Glory and the Dream by William Manchester. It's a narrative history of the United States from about 1932 to about 1973 if I remember right. Amazing work.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553345893/
Amazon show it as special order, but it seems to me that I've found it in stock at one of the other online stores (bn.com?)
Happy reading.
Chuck
Chuck,
Agree wholeheartedly with Time and Again; the sequel's not bad either. Caleb Carr's The Alienist is a nice companion piece to Time and Again since both use late 19th century New York City for the settings.
John
I found the sequel to be disappointing. I guess I was expecting too much.
The Alienist is excellent as well.
I've just finsished (this morning) Caleb's Killing Time. I did not like it nearly as much.
Chuck
I've read the Alienist and liked it. I'll have to try Time and Again, It sounds good.
This going-back-in-time business reminds me of Replay by Ken Grimwood, about a guy in an infinite time loop who at a certain point in his life gets sent back to his college years. (As an aside, he quickly perceives his advantage in sports betting.) He keeps living the same years over and over, but he tries different approaches to life each time.... I've never gotten anything but raves from people I've recommended this book to. [Sorry, John: from people to whom I've recommended this book.}
Also A great book I'd like to recommend is the one about the guy who gets jolted back to the 1870's to play baseball for the Cincinatti Redstockings. Can't recall the title. Anyone read it?
Rick, you really started a teriffic thread. I will have a lot or reading to due in the next year. TY
Ratso,
I really needed the ideas and its fun to see what people that we have come to trust like. I agree that this should be a great list for everybody and hope to copy in to MS Word when I get the chance.
Regards,
Rick
Dear Rick,
Am anxiously awaiting that list. Am looking for that book that Full Metal Jacket was based on. Have reread the posts until I am cross-eyes but can't find it. If you know which one I am referring to would you post it back to me?
Thanks for your time.
And if you can ever find it, or "The Warriors" by Sol Yurick, please let me know.
desire,
Buried above is a post that contains a direct link to an online version of Short-Timers, which is out of print. Near the top of this thread look for my early response to Ratso dated as follows:
Rick Nebiolo -- Thursday, 23 November 2000, at 10:38 p.m.
From there you can click directly to the online book.
Regards,
Rick
Hatchet by Gary Paulsen is about a boy who is stranded in the wilderness after a plane crash who learns how to survive his ordeal. Paulsen has competed in the Iditarod, so when he writes about the Great Outdoors, it's from experience. If this proves a hit, of course there's Call of the Wild and White Fang by Jack London.
Caddie Woodlawn is a good one for a niece of about the same age.
For either gender, The Twenty-One Balloons is a blast, pun intended, and then there's Island of the Blue Dolphins by Scott O'Dell, and the other standards like Kidnapped and Treasure Island by RLS, A Wrinkle in Time, and Roald Dahl's James and the Giant Peach.
The Clan of the Cave Bear, this series of books was good fiction.
SPM, ...reading only poker stuf these days...
The Jim McManus article in Harper's about the WSOP is now available at the newsstand. It is excellent. I am not all the way through, but so far the writing is top notch, and the pictures of "stars" such as Cloutier, Slim, Habib, Jesus, etc. are great, as is his retelling of the action and overall feel of the event. It should go far to explaining our passion to the uninitiated (at least the ones that buy Harper's).
KJS
Thanks. I've been haunting the newstand, wondering when it would show.
..and amazing photos.
Anybody ever notice, though, that in all the great articles by writers about playing the biggie; like McManus, Alvarez, Holden and Konik; the overriding emotions are fear, impending doom, and no control over one's actions?
Man, I hope I'm not that way when I finally get in.
I agree, it was a great article.
the overriding emotions are fear, impending doom, and no control over one's actions
He has a year to digest the experience. The fear will be replaced with anger. The sense of doom with agression. The lack of control with the conviction that he could have won the whole thing! Next time he'll be out in the first hour.
Just joking. He played well, and cashed out, what, 210,000!? Big Money.
It's a pretty good article.
I do have one criticism of it and that is: its written presupposing a certain knowledge of and experience with the game. Yeah, of course I noticed the sidebars. They didn't do much to help those totally unfamiliar to the game. I enjoyed the article tremendously and have already shared it with a few people all of whom were confused by the action. I understand that writing about outs and money odds versus card odds doesn't make for the most thrilling prose but it is the underlying logic that the emotional content is in response to. Otherwise the irony of certain hands is not clear and the response of the author is not shared by the audience.
From a poker player and for poker players, is a fair description. For introducing someone totally new, nothing does the job as well as The Biggest Game in Town or even Big Deal.
,
x
I thought that poker million was on for today(11/23) at 7:30 on the east coast. Was I wrong. I can't find it anywhere.
Could someone tell me when it's on.
Thanks.
I saw it today at 7:30 est. It was on the Fox Sports Network. The coverage was pretty good, it's definitely cool to see the hole cards. There were three commentators at all times including Phil Hellmuth for the first hour or so. I only wished that they would go to the table audio more often so you could hear the players' comments to each other. The commentating is geared to someone with little understanding of poker, which makes it more interesting for the casual viewer but is kindof annoying for an experienced player. I watched it with a few people who don't play poker and they didn't really enjoy it. The last couple of hands were interesting. I don't know if there will be a rebroadcast.
Jeff
It should be on again on Saturday and Sunday. Check your local listings. I don't think all the Fox Sports Nets carried it tonight (Fox is broken down into a bunch of regional Fox Networks) but I think they all will on Sunday.
Paul Talbot
..so I hope it does get rebroadcast.
Warning to those about to watch Poker Million:
Long show with far too many commercials. Record it and watch later with thumb on FF button.
I got Cablevision and it was not on.
Hope to see it Sunday (if they broadcast of course)
...whoever even once in his lifetime has caught a perch or seen thrushes migrate in the autumn,when on clear,cool days they sweep in flocks over the village,will never really be a townsman and to the day of his death will have a longing for the open.
Dagger.
wonderful post.
thanksgiving day i hiked up to rocky point on lake mcdonald in glacier nat. park. short hike but nobody was around and complete silence. nothing compares.
..then "Unbreakable" is a 97s. If you loved TSS then you'll think U is OK. If you thought TSS was OK then you'll hate U.
The 'twist' at the end is pretty cool, as is the overall idea, but Lordy, it takes awhile to get there.
I thought "Sixth Sense" was KK, but "Unbreakable" was AA.
Pure Masterpiece!
Good Luck
Howard
I'm going to the movies this weekend and hope for more opinions on Unbreakable.
Rick
I'm in total agreement with you Bill, especially about the twist at the end(I didn't see it coming, but maybe somebody who was a comic-book freak growing up would have). I sure wouldn't recommend it just because of the last 4 minutes though. Wait for it to come out on video or cable y'all, preferably the latter.
Sixth Sense was Big Slick suited, flopped two pair and runnerrunnered a nutflush.
Unbreakable: KK (white one and a black one -- from chess) with a board of T, J, Q, K, A.
ill go out on a limb here and say i was really scared by the movie, and thought the characters were pretty realistic. (on the other hand, i can see how people might not like watching a real life guy in a wrecked marriage and a dead end job.)
best movie ive seen this year except maybe for 'way of the gun', which was pretty good.
brad
Your comment reminds me of the people I talk to who hated "American Beauty" they are usually men who are in similar situations with their own family, but are in a state of denial.
CV
I thought the twist at the end was the worst part of the movie. It was a real let down and didn't really tie anything up like the twist at the end of Sixth Sense.
As my friend who saw it with me said, "Shaymalan forgot one imprtant thing. If you are going to have a plot twist, it helps to have a plot."
wasn't the ending, besides its abruptness, also a letdown because Mr. Glass was up until that moment admirable, likeable, charismatic?
no plot? what about: a man learning to accept and optimally deploy his exceptional (superhuman) capabilities.
extendable theme: a man alienated from his true self has as a consequence grown emotionally distant from wife and, to a lesser extent, child.
psychological underpinnings: ubiquitous estrangement between the sexes, authenticity of myths, Good and Evil's interdependence.
it was a good ending for people who will sit for a minute or two and go over the movie in their heads, kind of like you do (more briefly) after a hand is over and youre looking at your opponents showdown.
brad
p.s. i thought the movie was remarkably internally self consistent.
the note on the windshield was the tipoff, don't you think?
im just getting all back online and together after a complete frozen hard drive. luckily i copied to cd my doc. files and most bookmarks and addresses but still lost alot of them. lost most of my good downloads and having trouble getting all the crap to work again. so back up or copy everything that you do not want to be without when your hard drive goes. dont be dumb like me. also i bought locally the last 2 computers from the same place and they got right on it and gave me a new drive for free and reloaded most things id need for free as well.
When you say "good downloads" you mean porn right?
Local purchasing can be a huge benefit if anything goes wrong. I've heard plenty of horror stories from friends who got great deals on-line but then had no support when thiings went wrong or had to pack up everythign and ship it off and wait weeks for something to come of it.
Good advice but I don't even have a computer.
Me either Sammy. And I sure as heck ain't gonna try to figure out what that intronet thingy is.
Get a CD writer and save documents and important housekeeping files like the bookmarks and preferences and tool bars bi-weekly. Forget backing up the software since it probably has to be reinstalled over.
thats what i have and it saved my butt but i still didnt put enough on it and recent enough. id never get another computer without putting one or something on it that does an easy copy funtion. but how do you put the tools bars in, what folders are they in. and why not just copy the whole netscape or explorer files. thats where i get lost.
That is OK if you are sure the files did not corrupted. If the software is just copied onto the hard drive and the registry does not know where it was put, it may get corrupted. For netscape, we save the bookmarks, the netscape startup and users's folder. Then load a version of netscape and go to browsers.com for the latest version and dl it. Then we have to go through the registering crap, but we then pull in our bookmarks back with a slightly different name delete the old bookmarks and rename our old ones. bets thing now if you are running a Mac or windows 2000 or even 98/2 is to get a big old hard drive and drag the icon of the hd onto the big backup hd and make it a folder. If that does not work, we call our MIS center and they send out some 17 yr old with pimples and a crooked hat who parks his skate board, does some key strokes, drinks Snapple, eats a tofu sandwich (on pita) listens to Corn on a pocket MP3 player while he palys a gameboy for 1 hr till the computer finally uploads all it need from some room sized server in the basement of asom ancient medical building. He leaves saying OK dude, and everything works like before.
all you poor suckers out there that have all that warm weather and no ice- the last week or so we have been ice skating the the ice is perfect and smooth. my lake is like glass. it seems silly to have to live in the heat and have sticky underware.
isinsbhisaaisnswtiitoywfriacuwiuyc
Ray,
You don't need heat to get sticky underware ;-).
Regards,
Rick
well, as we learned before, Ray lost all his porn when his hard drive crashed, so his underwear are never sticky now.
Ray,
Watch out for the thin ice, it will make your underware, wet and cold. The good news is that when you get out of the water your underware will be stiff, the bad news is, you will still need viagra to make the rest of you stiff.
SPM,...in the midwest where viagra is sold...
Ray,
I played 9 holes of golf in the morning and went surfing in the afternoon. I am heading up to the mountains today to ski and tomorrow I'll be in San Diego to watch the Chargers and Chiefs play. Don't slip on the ice. I have a good buddy who is an orthopedic surgeon in Montana.
Bruce
When is the hockey game on?
Lucky you
its on right now out my front door but my knee hurts and i stink at hockey, so i skated around today in circles like a ballerina.
Did you wear a pink tutu?
Another Discovery show, this one on brown bears, reminded me of you and now this. It makes me wonder how you get ISP to your booby-trap laden shanty. Especially with your technophobe fishin' buddy Teddy the K. Just kiddin'. Anyway, I gotta jet and pick up some sunscreen on my way to the driving range.
JG
Ray,
There are always things that a particular person can't understand, such as: "Why would Byron Dafoe be offered so much money and hold out on the Bruins?" "Why did Motley Crue place almost thirty spots ahead of the Smashing Pumpkins in the VH1 top 100 countdown?" "Why do hot girls still occasionally insist on wearing sweat pants?" Ray, the cold sucks, that's my opinion. But, if you want to visit Arlingtin, MA, I'll put you up, take you to Foxwoods, let you give me a free 8 or better lesson, and then I'll give you a tour of my favorite spots in Boston? My roommate is the author of Zachary's Ball, if you like baseball, and you'll get a free autographed copy? Fuckin A', whad'ya say?
Ben
In our last episode the SPM was evicted from the Valley of Patience (VoP). He had broken many of the rules. And now was required to complete another application for a domicile in the VoP.
Was it to late for our beloved SPM. With reckless abandonment he had broken many of the rules.
Here is the list of rules he broke. Rule 1 Article 7; No member of the VoP will ever play a rag hand, unless it is the stonecoldnuts.
Rule 13Article 2; A member of the VoP will never throw cards with the speed of light when beaten senseless by rags.
Rule 69 Article 69; A member of the VoP will never verbally snap at players or dealers when things aren't going his way.
The list goes on and our local Celebrity broke them all and then some. The SMP was beside himself, he begged the pilot to fly back to his home town after seeing his grandson being born. He got home in record time, but it was Thanksgiving and no one plays cards on Thanksgiving.
The next day was a short day at the casino, the poker room would closed at 8:00pm. The SPM got into a game by 1:30pm. He was determined, cool and calculating. When he sat down he evaluated the field, there were some strangers he had not played with before, but he knew many of them.
The Bushwhacker was in the game and to every ones amazement he was winning. The Chairmen of the Board Mr Soccer Sucker, the Sunglass Kid, and the Janitor, all legends of the poker community. The SPM was in luck the Chairmen and the Sunglass Kid were highly thought of in the VoP, if he could show them he was VoP material, he might get the references he needed to get back into the community.
But after the first round the SPM was one stack down, by round two he was two stacks down. At this rate he'd be lucky to get a shack at the edge of Any Two Card Town. He was desperate. He had already seen the Chairman Mr Sucker, play some rags that turned into the stonecoldnuts. How does he do that? It must be a gift from the poker gods.
Finally he got a AKd in middle position, the Chairman raised some place close to the UTG position. He only raises here with AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK suited and maybe one other hand. The SPM calls, lots of players called the raise. The flop came with an A Q x. The Chairman checked the SPM bet, the chairman mucked his pocket KK. and by the river the SPM had won the hand, to the dismay of all the limpers that followed him to the river.
Was the SPM back, the Chairman and the Sunglass Kid, had their heads together, but no one could hear what they were saying. The SPM knew he had to do something stupendous to get back into the VoP. So he raised from early position with 22, the flop came JJx and the SPM pounded it hard. The turn was nothing and the river was the third J with only one caller left, the Pavement Man. The SPM knew if Pavement Man called the last bet the VoP would be lost forever. He bet and Pavement Man called, the SPM showed his ugly full house and to every ones amazement the SPM won. The Pavement Man showed an As 10s. "What did you think I had" asked the SPM, AK he answered???????????
Finally up a stack or so, the SPM thought for sure he would be accepted back into the VoP. But then came the SIGN, this table closes at 6pm.
Like rats jumping ship the table was down to seven players then six in a flash, and the SPM was on his short handed game. Any two cards, and of course he went belly up. Broke more VoP rules. His imaged damaged, his hopes of getting back into the VoP shattered.
The morale of the story is, don't play rag hands ever. Once you step over the line, they will keep moving that line and it may take a long time to find your where back to the Valley of Patience.
SPM, ...looking at the VoP from his shack at the edge of Any Two Card Town...
SPM,
I have found your epic saga within the VOP to be extremely entertaining. And yes... I found the 22 to be very, very, very impressive!! Keep up the good work.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
Thanks Chairmen, your comments give me encouragement to write more. Most of the time I get no responce, so I get only the therapeutic vaule from posting. Thanks again, I see there are real people out here on the internet. Does this mean that you and the Sun Glass Kid may recommend be to the board of the Valley of Patience.
SPM, ...typing to stay sain...
Someone from the Isle of Man has posted a Poker Million Shirt for sale on Ebay. Description says "a staff only" short sleeved shirt signed by the winner.
KJS
So this thread is super old, but hey, i figured i'd give it a whirl.
Knowing everything at a given moment does not mean that you know everything that will happen.
Suppose (jesus, allah, budda) knows only everything that has happened and is happening. Suppose further that he knows what everyone wants. To say that this being knows everything that will happen is still rediculous.
Just as a couterexample we may cite Quantum, but this has nothing to do with free will, we may simply use it to prove that the above statement is correct.
At this point we see that Scott is entirely correct, we as free men, have the possibility, no, the responsibility to act against our own desires, and see that our best interests our thrown to the wind.
if only my feet were so fast...
-james H.
By the way,
The Redskins are the greatest football team ever. Did you see that St. Louis Game, scott? wow. darrel green playing on a torn clf muscle. Jeff George is great. I never trusted that Brad Johnson Character, anyway. He wasn't right in the head.
"Knowing everything at a given moment does not mean you know everything will happen."
I agree but omniscience means knowing even more than this. Omniscience means knowing the past, the present, AND THE FUTURE!!! Omniscience literally means "all knowing". If God does not know the future than God's knowledge is limited or bounded. But according to the bible God's knowledge is unlimited and his power unbounded. God knows the future as well as the past and the present. Therein lies the problem.
I'm not sure this was adressed in the other thread, but the all-powerful being is an impossibility in any context using the oft-quoted example of,"Can God create a rock so heavy that he himself cannot lift it?"
Of course this depends on how you define power. If it is the ability to coerce OTHERS and exercise authority over OTHERS then the above paradox does not not condradict the idea of "all powerful."
That is like asking if God can create a married bachelor. Since the question itself is internally inconsistent it is therefore nonsensical.
I don't think your analogy is apt because by definition someone who is married cannot be a bachelor, except of course for Donald Trump. Let's try this one. The power of creation is usually a good test for an all powerful being, so can an all powerful being create another all powerful being? If he can't, well, enough said, if he can then APB #1 could not defeat APB #2.
When you address creation you are introducing a different attribute of God which is omnipotence ("all powerful") and that is separate and distinct from omniscience ("all knowing"). But to address your point. Since by definition a being who is "all powerful" can be the only one with that unique attribute the question is still self-contradictory.
You must be a lot of fun at dinner parties. :-)
Actually I have learned to keep my mouth shut about all of this. There are two subjects I have learned to avoid like the plague in any kind of social setting. One is politics and the other is religion (almost a cliche isn't it?).
The whole subject of religion, God, the bible, etc. is impossible to discuss rationally without prompting a bitter feud because they are fundamentally irrational. However, the themes expressed are so appealing to most people that they are willing to embrace almost anything to accept them. I have had horrible arguments with my sister, my daughter, my ex-wife, and my brother-in-law over all of this so I simply stay silent.
At least I have this forum I can use. Thanks for letting me vent.
Can God create a rock so tight that he himself can not force to play loose?
greetings. i suppose this is our best medium. it certainly would allow slack jawed gawkers to appreciate our correspondence.
in any case, i called your house while home. your father told me you were still several horizons away. not going home for thanksgiving! what kind of patriot are you?
i did see the skins crush the rams. i drank a good deal in anticipation and, later, celebration. a good deal even for me. 5 pitchers, give or take a couple pints. i also saw the skins lose this afternoon to eagles. i was not drinking. i believe my duty as a fan may be to get drunk every game. did you ever notice how games, and only games, can be taken completely seriously without being overcome by laughter?
i have been writing. three poems in the last three days. i am on a tear. i hesitate to publish them in such a private letter, but one begins with "the morrow comes and the marrow goes." it ends "time's irreversible song erodes infinity leaving each only alone." except perhaps "each" should be "me." i suppose it's not finished, after all.
in case i cannot trust the chinaman as a messanger, i will mention that i too have hallucinated more than my usual dreaming sickness would allow.
scott
Did you notice how i cleverly steered away the rabble with my post? Not one response to my real letter from anyone except for you. The rest were drawn away like puppy dogs afer a smelly herring. I am too clever.
anyway, i was not conscious for the eagles game, but woke to find the news. I know that being a fan means that i must continue to support my team, but it is hard. Harder than anything i have ever had to do. Harder than poker frankly. I have never struggled like this before. The hope and the misery is too much, even for me.
More importantly, have you noticed that afterwards, getting stoned is more interesting? It is like a rut carved into your mind that is easier to revisit. Sometimes when i get tired and i stare for awhile it comes back to me. An overall worthwhile experience.
As for the bird, i cooked one myself for my sister. I will see you soon.
-james H.
need to stop blovating like idiots. Otherwise the man is just going to make you cut your hair, turn down your music, and make you wear frilly shirts like keith partridge.
a.
to be the bad man, to be the sad man, behind blue eyes.
mama's got squeeze box, daddy never sleeps at night.
i'm a boy. i'm a boy. i'm a boy.
scott
Same as the old boss
sorry I didn't see you last weekend. Its a shame I missed your acrobatic trick of jumping off the door into the car. Let's hang out before I leave for costa rica; we can play that knights v. ogres board game where the knigts get the cannon and the ogres get the super tough guy. Remember what i'm talking about?
a.
yeah... I think I still have that in a closet somewhere
:)
the problem being that I'm going straight from school to LA for christmas - I'll be back on January 8th... when are you leaving for costa rica (just you and mark?)
krister
you're going to la! my vague plans for winter break include lake tahao/reno area for the week or so up to new years then a week or so down in la.
when are you going to be there, with whom and how are you traveling?
i'd email you, but i dont have a good batting average getting a response from you. i also want to somehow bring up how your parents didn't (still dont?) let you drive a car containing me, but i cant think of a clever way to work it in.
scott
The specifics are not quite set, but basically both my sides of my family are going to be in LA for christmas. Fortunately, I have two uncles who live there who are willing to house me after my parents leave. One has a new baby and won't have much (any) free time, but the other is a degenerate himself and hopefully he'll help me get around town and the card clubs... I don't know his work schedule though
I should be there Dec 21st to Jan 7th while my parents will be there Dec 23rd to Jan 1st/2nd
I'm flying Southwest to and from Burbank, and I'm hoping to be chauffeured around while there
Do you know which coast ted/james will be on during that time?
All of you jokers sure are taking up valuable space on the forum which could otherwise be devoted to more interesting topics. You think the rest of the world cares what crap you all are up to? Of course not! JERKS!
Yeah, so I'm gonna be in Cali for christmas, too, and also visiting the Tahoe area for a stretch. Family is based in Frisco, tho. I don't know how I'd get to LA.
Also, if y'alls gonna be around sometime soon, it turns out the guys on my floor like to play poker, too, so I have a good shot at getting a game up. Lemme know when. Classes end around the 12th and finals go for another week.
Also, I shaved my head and it makes me look even fatter. Amazing, isn't it?
Joe
second of all, blovating is not a word. If it was a word, I think it would roughly mean "My name is AlexB and I'm an idiot", although I'm not a Rhodes scholar and could be mistaken. Third of all, why did craig and Krister insist on getting out of the car? They knew they'd be ditched in the freezing cold. Although I don't think anyone saw the car door coming, least of all krister. that's why it always pays to be driving, except when you get pulled over for 60 in a 40. for those of you who ever want to get out of a ticket, here's the key. First, offer to take the sobriety test. It shows you got balls. Second, offer to have any accompanying females sleep with the officer, they like that. these don't apply to scott, as he has a warrent out for his arrest.
...where am I supposed to come in on this thread??
you know your role is to remind mark that by offering the female car companions to the police officer, at least someone in the car would get some booty.
a.
ps. blovating is a word like it ain't no thang
AlexB,
Blovating? Blovating? Beserk? Beserker? Beserkest?
But, "to blovate"? I guess I'll live in doubt.
John
It would seem, Dr. Feeney, that you're about three years too late, maybe more, but I'm no Rhodes scholar either.
Oh Sammy, a lot more than 3 years I'm afraid. :(
But I'm energetic, a self starter, a go getter, and a people person! Does that count for something?
Sounds like you're perfect for that AMWAY thing.
I post and the Young Turks all abandon the thread. This means that either they see me as so cool they fear they cannot be cool enough in response, or so uncool that they don't want to be seen with me. I am so confused.
x
not your fault
the thread just got too far to the right to be seen easily
I'm leaving for costa rica the 30thish and i'm staying through the fifteenth sixteenth. i know you have a long break, so we might be able to hang out at the tail end.
stay on point.
a.
i supported the team when the last of the posse limped to city of male rape to finish his career with the eagles. i supported the team when dallas's only win came at rfk. i supported the team when we turned 7-1 into 9-7. i'll support the team now and i'll support in next year. no matter what happens. i'll not deny it hurts, but in that pain is the nobilty of being their twelfth man.
i agree i remember more clearly when i was stoned than when i was drunk. but you dont get a hangover from marijuana. also, marijuana, for me, impedes almost all external action. i consider that a mixed curse. in all, i think alcohol is more interesting and worthwhile.
you cooked a turkey for your sister! what color dress are you wearing? now i know why your parents call you jamie.
scott
my point is just that if somehow your life repeated over and over, would you always call that river bet, or would you sometimes call , sometimes fold, and (i guess rarely) sometimes bluff raise?
if you always call, doesnt that pretty much point to a deterministic scheme of things, and if you make different decisions, doesnt that seem to imply that your so called free will is really nothing more than just a random hodgepodge?
note that it is only in the so called 'deterministic' universe that we can be said to have any sort of will that is intrinsic to our being, something that we define ourselves by. ( for example, a really big life decision, like to betray your family and live , or stay loyal and die. if you dont always make the same choice (in a thought experiment eternally recurring life), then what does that say about your character, your essence, your will ?
by the way i think you are completely correct that to believe our fate is in our hands, and really i think that this is our heritage as westerners, and overrides any academic argument. but its fun to philosophise.
brad
Yes it's true, with the final count in, I won by 591 votes and now I'm the mayor of Any Two Card Town. I sent the Valley of Patience (VoP) qualifying board a letter requesting that they take my name off the application list.
It was East Chicago, Harra's Casino, yesturday, (Rounder was missing again) the SPM confused and depressed. All his attempts to be accepted into the VoP community were shattered. He tried to play his best game and was up 3 1/2 sacks. It felt good to be back in the zone of Patience.
But the unthinkable happened, the game got short. Once again the SPM turn to his short handed game. Any2willdo! And the stacks vanished in thin air. Mr WeWillie from Aurora is right on the money when he says "the cards have no respect for talent."
The game got full and it turned into a passive no foldem holdem shoot out, at first it was 3-5 callers then it was 5-9 callers on most hands. How can you throw away your birthday hand 46 off? When your on the button and 6 players have called without the blinds. Not this SPM, calling was the order of the day.
After the chip leaders saw the SPM win with a gut card on the river with his birthday hand, they decided to take no prisoners. Bad move boys & girls, the SPM took any2cards and won the election.
SPM, ...mayor of any 2 card town...we don't need no stiking patience...
"now I'm the mayor of Any Two Card Town"
So exactly where is this place. Could it be a town of about 5,000 in Arizona called Show Low. Main street here is called the "Deuce of Clubs Blvd."
The story behind that is that the founders were having some kind of issue to be resolved and to do so, the two protagonists cut the deck one time for low card. The winner was the guy who drew the deuce of clubs. So, arguably Showlow is only a one-card poker town.
JG(whose father was a big advocate of car vacations in one's home state and now does really really well on one out of fifty Jeopardy u.s. geography questions)
Just be thankful your home state isn't Rhode Island--or is it?
John
No. Arizona, so lots of travel opportunities, one of them being Showlow, AZ. I actually did have a vacation in Rhode Island this summer as that was where the NSC was held. Herein is an excerpt from my report:
** begin excerpt**
3) Catch cab outside Biltmore.
Cabs are queued up and the cabby won't drive over to pick us up. I have to walk 30 yards to the cab to get his acknowledgment of my existence. He cracks the window an inch and asks "where are you going?" Like if he doesn't like it, he ain't gonna take me there. You think I'm paranoid. Here is a god honest truth exchange between me and a cabdriver Saturday night.
Him (cracking window, with the car in drive): Where are you going?
Me : The all-night store two miles down on 95.
Him : Why?
Me : I need to get baby food.
Him : They close at midnight.
Me (looking at clock on dash) : It's 11:20.
Him : They might be getting ready to get closed.
Me : Oh?
Him : Yeah.
Me : Well, open the door and let's get crackin'.
Him : (thinking ... )
Finally he lets me in, and somehow I run up a $9 fare on a cab ride that seemed awfully quick. Before giving him the money I asked for a receipt. He hemmed and hawed and said the last cab driver didn't leave him any. I say that's fine, just right your name and the itinerary and the amount on a piece of paper for me. He starts bellyaching more. I give him $7 and get out. He doesn't say anything. The cab ride back cost $6 from a random (other) vendor. That was my first encounter with the people of Providence. My second through final were while waiting outside the store after midnight while person after person came up and when the doors wouldn't open would start haranguing me about the store being closed while I'm standing there with my grocery bags:
Them (pushing unmoving doors) : Is the store closed?
Me : It would appear so.
Them : What time is it?
Me : I don't know, after midnight.
Them : It says open 24 hours.
Me : Why are you fuc*ing telling me? It's your loser city, not mine.
Anyway, I think me and the people of Providence now have an understanding.
** end excerpt**
JG
Jim,
But, haven't you seen our city's glowing image in that eponymously named show?
Your excerpt comes as no surprise to us; after all, our mayor is a convicted felon who engaged in a rather dubious form of revenge against his ex-wife's boyfriend, with the aid of the Rhode Island State Police. I won't give all the details, but it involved a fireplace log and urine.
John (born and raised in Providence)
John,
I'm trying to sneak a poker question in the "other topics section". I played with you on Friday night when you won a grand in the 5-10 kill game at foxwoods. I raised late with 99 and you called on your kill button.
Flop: A A x
I bet, you call,
Turn: x
I bet, you raise. I think for two seconds, and then muck it.
Did you have an ace? If not, i'm curious as to your move. Ignore any future implications, as anyone is free to mix it up. I would appreciate your honesty on that one play. Until the next,
Thom
Hi Thom,
You should have introduced yourself. God, I had just about everything that night, but I'm not really sure what I had on that hand. It may have been pocket eights or a strong ace, but I honestly don't remember. If I called the flop, I must have assumed you were agressive enough to bet the turn without the A. Did anyone else call the flop?
John
Mr Malmuth,
For a complete understanding of the story you must read the three posts I call them the trilogy of the Valley of Patience. They are The Valley of Patience, Where Mr. Sucker Lives, The Never ending Story of The Valley of Patience. and the last one you read.
I am very happy you responded, you have helped my game with your books. My emotions Dr B.F. Skinner will need more time to fix. Thanks for your post.
SPM, ...responding to a real celebrity...
I would like to thank all of you that voted for me, and I would especially like to thank those of you that voted more than once. You diligence and perserverance are much appreciated.
For those of you that believe I should step aside and concede, I believe you are misguided for one very simple reason: I want the damn job!
After I win all of the recounts, and am proclaimed king, ah er, President of the United States, I expect that all of you disgruntled republicans will quickly fall into line. I will make a great president and Joel Liberman will make a great Secretary of State.
Thanks again for your vote. My first priority upon entering office will be to make all poker games, nation wide, a flat two dollar rake.
Good night, and God bless America.
Yo Al, I voted for you now how about a job?
I don't care about the rake. How about a live one at every limit like you promnised?
Don't you think that someone impersonaing the vice-president should banned? Of course not! This is the era where drunk driving,awol, cocaine snorting spoiled drunken brats are taken seriously in America.
$
I have some friends who have been running bad in $80-$160. Can they get a government subsidy?
Sorry Al I didn't vote, so I get the government I deserve,
SPM, ...waiting for the next election...
I'm going to Florida in December and I'd like to play some poker. Does anyone have any suggestions.
I'm going to Florida in December and I'd like to play some poker. Does anyone have any suggestions.
Yes. Don't check raise with weak hands. Throw away small suited connectors under the gun; and slowplay Aces and Kings every third time.
I hope you have a good trip.
I live in Florida. I understand that Florida was declared the worst place in America to play poker by _Poker Digest_. Where do you intend to play?
Legal, ground-based poker exists only at the Indian reservations and pari-mutuel facilities, but it's not real poker. Poker size is limited to $10, the dealers measure the amount bet, betting stops at $10, and then there's a show down. The rake is confiscatory.
Cuise ships charge a 10% rake to $5. Your playing time is limited, there's no new money entering that game and they make new customers pay to get on.
If you don't know anyone to get you into a private game, that's all there is.
Yesterday (Sunday), the Venetian in Las Vegas, closed their poker room . They had said, that they were planning on moving it to another part of the casino. However, when the dealers came to work on sunday, they were told that the room was going to be closed for good at 1.00PM. As I posted in another thread on Friday, they were having trouble getting games started.So it's no big loss really.
Good Luck
Howard
It dosen't make much sense to have a mostly empty room with a few tables of 1-5 or 1-4-8-8. Large cardrooms will bring in players whose spouses and friends will play the pit games and slots. Small cardrooms in gambling centers won't, and I don't see how they can justify the lost space. If the collapse of tiny cardrooms leads to the expansion of the larger ones, it will be good for the game as a whole.
Dear Mr Fidster,
It was great seeing you on your "A" game at Harra's in East Chicago last Saturday. Keep up the good work and you may get into the community of the Valley of Patience.
HOWEVER...
Your comments about the any2card players must stop. There is a danager in the additude that says "look how the fish play, their so easy. Fish are the life in the poker pond, with out fish you don't eat. If you continue to belittle their play verbally they will move to another pond. Or even worst the poker god will take some of your chips and give them to the fish, this is a statistical cleansing.
When I left you were experiencing a cleansing of about 3 1/2 stacks. I hope you got it back. Please clean up your act and love the fish, and they will reward your love with chips.
SPM,...able to see the truth with his ears...
SPM-
I think this is an excellent subject. I can think of a few otherwise good players and many more not so good players who have lots of trouble when it comes to biting their lip. It seems so obvious... Why teach poor players? Or worse, make the game unpleasant so they'll leave?
I think much of this has to do with taking up residence in the VoP. I used to pride myself on a modest little piece of real estate I own there. But I'm still paying it off and recieved a stern call from the mortgage company last Fri.
After 9 straight hours of suckouts from the fishies, some imbecile calls 2 double raises cold on a flop of AQ8 with a 32o and caught a perfect-perfect 4,5 to beat my AQ. It was the last straw on a very bad day. After the hand, he mentions he's still stuck $1000! I couldn't help remarking "I can't imagine why!"
Hope I don't find an eviction notice on my door. Winters a coming and I don't want to be living in some cardboard box on the streets of Any Two Card Town....
(if I only had the patience to wait until he busted out, and then asked if he had a credit card) : )
Kevin
You guys will never forget that credit card question will you? :>)
SPM, ...always thinking out loud...
No. It was the absolute funniest, brass balled comment I've ever heard at the table. I was sipping a drink at the time and sprayed my chips through my nose!
The SPM: (risking life and limb for the sake of a good joke)
SPM,
Thank you for the compliments on my play, it is appreciated and nice when it comes from a player of your caliber. Just out of curiousity, were you referring to what I was saying to you after you played that J4? If so, you are right, I should have let it go and not said anything to you.
Just kidding you SPM, although I was surprised to see you turn that over to take that pot. I do unfotunately after several beats have a tendency to voice some opinions. I know I shouldn't and I'm sure that in time I will learn not to, but for now it is a flaw in my personality. Since it is part of the make up of me, it is something that I am having trouble with.
I will make you a deal, I will not say anything any more if you promise not to play J4 from late middle position. Get back to me and let me know if we have a deal.
Thanks for the advice,
Fidster :^)
P.S. Oops, I did it again, didn't I?
As the new Mayor of Any2card Town, I am required on occation to play and win with any2cards. It wasn't playing the J4 that was so great it was catching the gut striaght on the river. The guy with the best starting hand went on tilt after that bad beat.
Winning ugly is sometimes the best advertisement to getting paid off when you got da nuts.
SPM, ...always a reason after the fact...
ok, your Honor
:^)
Fidster
I want to fly to Vegas for a 3-day weekend to play in the Bellagio poker room. Is there a motel or a hotel within walking distance of Bellagio that is under $100 a night and isn't booked up 2 months ahead? I never been to Vegas so i apologise if i'm completely clueless. Thanks.
Hehe. Depends on what you call "walking distance." Most of them are under $100 a night except on weekends.
Try the Monte Carlo. It's very nice. It's much cheaper. And there is a tram that connects it to The Bellagio. It also has a small poker room.
I stayed there with my family one time. Decent room, slightly better than average. Newer facility all-around, so not trashy in the corners like some places. VERY cheap rate, less than any other strip hotel I could find on that trip. Also has a really good pool, IIRC.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Mason -
I'm staying at the Monte Carlo in Jan. how's the poker room there???
It's all low limit, at least when I was there (over 2 years ago). HE and stud, nothing higher than 3-6 or 4-8, IIRC. Very nice room, English drawing room kind of feel to it, friendly staff.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think that's still accurate. I would recomment that you take the tram to The Bellagio or go to the Mirage.
Stay at the O'rleans. they have a shuttle to and from the strip every 20 minutes. Stops accross the street from the Bellagio. Nice rooms and has a Poker room. I believe Poker rate is reasonable on weekends.
Vince
You can stay at the Budget Suites about one block from the Orleans, walk to the Orleans and take the shuttle to the Barbary Coast (one block from the Bellagio). They have weekly rates that I'm guessing would run around $250 to $300.
You could try Maxim. It's down the street two blocks off the strip, a 5 minute walk to Bellagio. There are no frills but if all you want is a bed and a shower then it is fine. It's something like $30-$40 on week days and $60-$80 on weekends. It doesn't have a casino anymore so it has a creepy vacant feel, but it's cheap, close to the Bellagio and fine for sleeping and showering.
I'm a poor grad student so I stayed there in October on my last visit and played at Bellagio.
Paul Talbot
.
"Candy, Candy, Candy, I can't let you go; all my life been waiting for you, love you so..."
I'm an ol' metalhead/classic rocker myself, but I've always had a soft spot for a bit of the new wave. Now, for me to get all the songs I want, I'd have to buy approximately 900 different compilation CDs. Says **** that. Too bad the record companies don't have everything online and you could just pay a buck a song.....
Turns out I have an ol' school buddy who is a sick degenerate Napster junkie. Yes, this married home-owning father w/two bachelors/one master's degree(s) is addicted to downloading MP3 files. 60-80 megs a day. For months. So I give him the list.
*heH*, as Razzo might say. Lil' payback for all the crap albums I bought and lousy concerts I went to back in the day.
I also have a soft spot for wimpy pop/soft rock/superhits, too...
"Like a princess she was laying there, moonlight dancing off her hair; she woke up and took me by the hand,..."
An MP3 of "Boys Don't Cry" as performed by Nathan Larson, not The Cure's original version, please let me know.
Larson's version was used in the eponymous film, as it was 'grittier and darker', but left off the soundtrack for financial reasons.
I'll even pay Larson and Robert Smith a buck each for it....
What a strange coincidence.....Right as I was reading your post I was listening to "Boys Don't Cry", but it was the usual Cure version. As for the other version, you should be able to find it on Napster. If you want to download a really kick ass song, go to napster and find a song called "Haven" by the band Adhesive. This is one of the greatest songs ever recorded. Good luck. Kris
I was watching this last Saturday morning (great hangover TV) and I was particularly taken with The Rock vs. William Regal. Frankly I laughed my tits off.
I just wondered whether anyone agrees with my basic premise that, by taking so many of the things wrong with our world to their logically extended limit, WWF is actually great ? Is the flat-out predetermined outcome not preferable to covertly rigged quiz shows and so on ? Is the all-out shameless hype not preferable to the ridiculous attempts of the media to build up their own products irrespective of the quality ? Is the cartoon-style violence not preferable to a TV schedule of endless murder and mayhem ? And (though even I'm not sure about this one) is the out-and-out racism not preferable to the insidious, almost unnoticeable racism prevalent throughout the entire media ?
Or is this just me ?
Andy.
I think it is halarious but much tedious to watch. My dad did that stuff back in the early 1950's. Fixed then too. Remember it is called an "exibition", not a sport.
It's sports entertainment. End of story. I met the McMahons and a slew of the superstars a while back when they were taking their company public. Vince McMahon is a very smart and ambitious individual and his vision quest with his product is unquestionable.
Welcome to the club. The WWF is more "real" than anything else on TV.
I can't take even 20 secs. of WWF but I can watch grass grow for hrs.
It was a busy day in the real world for Basement Man, he wanted to get to the casino ASAP because he had to be at his grand daughters birthday party at 7pm. He finally finished up his basement duties and off to hole'em heaven and by 2:37pm he was in a 5-10 game.
Now on duty as the SPM, a mild mannered suburbanite fighting the never ending battle for any player to play any2cards from any position. Or he was just another Hold'em Junkie unable to let even one day pass without holding cards in his hand, and tossing chips into the pot. What ever the reason he was happy.
The SPM begain his game from the Valley of Patience (VoP). He was up a stack in no time. Now it was time for sitting back and mucking, muck, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, raise. A familiar pattern of most rock's found in the VoP.
The game was ok, no hard luck story yet and then it happened. The SPM heard the page over the pa system. Calling Mr. Cappy for 5-10 hold'em.
Fear hung heavy over the SPM, no not Mr Cappy. His arch enemy, the master of disaster, Mr. Cappy. Then a phone call from Any2card Town City Hall, "Mr Mayor" they said to the SPM, we hear you are playing from the VoP, this could get you impeached. We advise, playing, or we could have another $40,000,000 investigation.
Raise, Raise, Cappy, Cappy, the sound of the chips going into the pot with record speed. It was like Mr. Cappy had some kind of raising disease, that spread over the table and players like the plague.
The SPM couldn't stop himself, before to long he was mixing it up with Mr Cappy. Calling with nothing, raising with nothing and finally going home with nothing.
The morale of the story is, never draw against Mr Cappy he's to fast.
SPM, ...beaten senseless by Mr Cappy...
hmmm....was watching your table...can't figure out who Mr. Crappy was. But thank goodness he didn't move to the 10-20. He would have found lost family there.
You'll know when Mr Cappy is in your game by his battle cry. RAISE! RAISE! RAISE! RAISE!
SPM,...Drawing against Mr. Cappy with an empty gun...
SPM,
Mr. Cappy was in the 10-20 game when I got to Hollywood at about 10:15pm. He had a lot of chips in front of him and looked like he was trying out life in the VOP. He only raised 7 out of 10 hands each round and rarely capped it. He is one of my favorite players. We did get mixed up in one hand where I had flopped a set of Queens. He made a 5 on the turn to give him a pair of fives (no - not a set or trips) On the river came the case Queen - he checked and I decided I would gingerly step out and value bet. He of course called.
Here's to Mr. Cappy - one of the best and a genuinely nice guy.
Better luck next time SPM - remember that he can never keep the chips, only hang onto them until the next time - I have been on Mr. Cappy's tracks when the train he was on runneth me over - it is definitely not fun - but he always returns the chips the next day or so and usually with a very generous rate of interest.
BUT - unlike you Suburban Poker Man - he will NEVER hold council in the VOP.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
Michaelllllllllllllll...
Am gonna have to start coming later. It seems you're always in the feeder game when I'm at Holly.
Although you are no Action Jackson, I do like your smile when you drag down a pot...or not.
heh
Hello Desire!!!
Now that you are back from your 5 week holiday at the Bellagio I am sure you will be around late night to continue to torture me and take my checks. But we always have a good time!
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
Ms desire, you r a outragious flirt, why don't you flirt with someone your age. Like me :>) My wife won't let me out of the house with the Viagra, but we could still have fun.
SPM, ...noticing that you got all the right parts...
Dear SPM,
Hell, I'll bring the viagra, darlin'..and I'll take it too ;}~~
So Mr Chairman, you have my chips. Well treat them with care they are only on a recon missision. However, I will need a Seal Team to get them back from you.
SPM,...I hate being Mayor of Any2card Town...
Hi all.
I will be going down to AC this weekend to play in 3 of the events of the USPC. If we've met, I will hopefully remember and say hi to you. If we haven't met, please introduce yourself. Just look for a big guy who looks vaguely like John Goodman and has 3-5 fossils sitting on the table in front of him.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
P.S. - If anyone wants to suggest a simple route from Connecticut to AC, please feel free to do so. I will be departing my job in eastern CT at about 5, hitting NYC at about 7 (hopefully traffic won't be an issue), and continuing down. I've never made the drive before, so I don't know which roads will likely be preferred.
Greg,
I think the most direct route is to take the New Jersey Turnpike (I-95) to exit 11 and then the Garden State Parkway down to the A.C. Expressway (Exit 38), then it's 7 miles east to the boardwalk. Tolls will nickle and dime you all the way, but after your big score last week, I'm sure that won't be an issue.
good luck man, shooter
If traffic is bad in NYC (listen to your radio starting before Stamford on I-95 - pay attention to reports about the Geo. Washington Bridge - "GWB"), take I-95 to I-287 (the "Cross Westchester Expressway" near White Plains, NY just after Greenwich, CT - Exit 22). Take I-287 accross the Tappan Zee Bridge to the Garden State Parkway South. Provided, of course, that the Tappan Zee is not also a nightmare.
This avoids the city entirely, but is longer if traffic is light.
David
greg, i work in stamford and the traffic from bridgeport down to here is a mess and even worse into nyc. you might want to think about taking a nap and leaving later in the night, or leave work really early, (like now) j/k but yes traffic is a big mess and will be all the way through to AC good luck man
So, this is true until how late at night? At what time would you leave Bridgeport and not expect to see traffic delays? Yes, I know that you can find traffic problems at any time, any day, but I'm only going to worry about typical traffic problems, not the (frequent) atypical ones.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
id have to say wait until about 7:30 to leave your home, the last time i went to AC, it took me 3 hours from milford. so when you hit here you'll be free and clear and most of the night time work wont be started yet. but you never know what is gonna go on with traffic, but the volume down here is insane. and it never moves, lol good luck greg, and knock em dead
The later the better no joke.
The parkway takes you right into the AC x-way. You can see the city to your left (east). Look for the exits on Pkwy. It is either 38 or 38A. There is the NJ's #1 speedtrap between the Tuckerton exit (Exit 58) and Exit 40. Obey the speed limit over this stretch of road. Small town with State Police barracks. Disregard this and you may become a source of Revenue$$ for the "quaint" town of New Gretna. Once on AC x-way it is about 6 miles and 1 toll (.50). Follow the x-way all the way as far as you can go. You will go left on Pacific Ave where Caesar's and Trump Plaza sit. Follow Pacific Ave about 14 traffic lights (Virginia Ave--1 of the Purple properties on Monopoly board) to the Taj. You cannot miss it. The place will be jammed. Special poker rate should be available. I'll look for you but I'll probably spend most of my time at Tropicana. If you have any problems you can call 267-254-9185.
Good luck. Hope to say hello to you
Greg -
If you are from Eastern CT and you want to bypass the construction on I-95 (Especially in Bridgport) take the Merritt Parkway Exit in Milford and then get take the I-287/Tappan Zee Bridge Exit. Go over the Tapan Zee and then in about 7-9 miles you'll see the the Garden State Parkway Exit going south. If you do not already own an E-Z Pass buy a roll of tokens at the Hillsdale Toll Plaza. The tokens will speed up your trip (not as much as E-Zpass though). You can pretty much go with traffic which on a good night will keep you cruising at 70-75 mph. There are lots of speed traps and a huge police presence on the Parkway, but the go after the maniacs. Also never be in the lead spot leading the the speeders and you'll be in OK shape. You can take the Atlantic City Expressway (Exit 38). But, I go to the Taj via Exit 40 - Absecon and get there much quicker because it takes you right to the front enterance of the Taj (Think Rounders when Mike and Worm are driving up). But, since you are going down for the first time. Stick with the AC Expressway and then you can decide if you want to take the Absecon way back. Also Absecon offers a lots of cheap gas stations to fill up. I hope you score a direct hit as I enjoy your posts.
Good point going down the Absecon Blvd (Rt 30 East) from Exit 40, but there is a lot of construction for the tunnel that has the road to 1 lane in spots over the Venice Park bridge plus it is the tenderloin (which is no worse than the area around Yale in New Haven) of AC off Maryland Avenue. Still a good alternative, but the other way shows you the city and all but 2 other casinos at the expense of only a few added minutes and is safer. Not much traffic at night on a Friday on Pacific Ave.
Very good point. I'm so used to going that way that I know when and where and what lanes to move into to avoid the traffic. I never use the AC Expressway anymore going to the Taj. I can't handle the backups at the lights and the clueless drivers who don't know how to merge once you get off the expressway.
I never get off at the Arkanasas (last )exit. I get off at the Chelsea exit (#2). Continue over the Albany Ave Bridge. Go left at the Sunoco station (2 lanes turn). Continue up (north) Arctic Ave crossing over the X-way exit and avoiding the traffic. Drive to Maryland or Virgina Ave and make a right. About 25 blocks from the Sunoco station
Thinking ot taking a vacation down to the Bahamas this Feb and possibly staying at the Atlantis Resort..However I'm inclined not to do so if there isn't any poker there,preferably "hold em". Does anyone know if there is any poker at Atlantis???
Atlantis has waterproof cards, but the watershuffle is a bitch to master, so they have trouble getting dealers and waitresses who look good in scuba. The beer is watered down and the salt on the rim is all natural. People always leaving the table to get more air what wimps they can't hold their breath unless they get A's then you should see them suck it up. Just bring your goggles and a 3 minute air cylinder in case you get A's or are next in the BB.
Good Air Man That's The Key
I am almost certain that the only "poker" in the Bahamas is Caribbean Stud Poker and that sort of ilk. -Sean
I was just reading my beat up, creased, pages-falling-out copy a few minutes ago while downloading some music and got to thinking. Hey David, how about making a new, expanded, much more durable edition of the Theory of Poker? Get rid of the draw examples and just focus on hold'em and stud examples. And instead of a boring old paperback cover make it a "limited" edition blue, black, or silver hardcover with gold lettering and a nicer looking font and artwork. It would be the signature 2+2 book; more collectible and cooler-looking than any other poker book out there (even Super/System) and be a great piece for a bookshelf. You could sell it for $50-$100 and I would buy it. Who am I kidding, if it had enough new material in it I would pay plenty more. In all sincerity, sucker
dont give him any ideas. i have the most expensive 2+2 book and then id be left out in the cold even though Paul Feeney said the book was worth it. although it would benefit me as Mason would give me a free copy. if another higher priced 2+2 book comes out im going to raise my price to $10,000 for my book. so anyone comtemplating getting one should do so after the first of the year(so as to defer my profits into the next tax year).
Ray,
I think it's about time you wrote another book and revealed some more of your secrets. Your secrets are save with me.
Sucker,
I agree that he should get rid of the draw and low ball examples and update it for the 21st century. I would like to see some of the theory applied using examples from todays games. I think if he did this it would make it easier to understand.
I think he should re-write it himself this time. Put back the forward by Bobby Baldwin and get rid of the ghost writer. Go back to the style that was originally intended, "David Sklansky on Poker Theory." I still have that copy and much prefer it to the newer versions.
It's the real thing.
I hate being Mayor of Any2card Town! I've seen some of the previous Mayor's and they seem to do very well. They got graft from 72off, I can't get a kick back from AA let alone any2cards.
What was I thinking when I ran for Mayor of this bad beat town? Promises were made gifts exchanged, and still I get no kick backs. Just kicked in the head.
I'm not a bad Mayor, yesturday I played rags from 32off to AA double suited and all I got was lip service form the voters. Just because I get lost at the turn and muck the rags, why does that make me a bad Mayor. Sure some of those folds would have turned a trick or two, but hey I lived in the Valley of Patience (VoP) for a good 10 days. Old habits are hard to break.
What should I do?
SPM,...hoping, wishing and praying for impeachment...
Politics is a tough business. I think that you should find an empty perch in the Railbirds Sanctuary until those VoP folks invite you back.
ps keep up the good work.
SPM,
You can come over and be a resident in our town. To apply, simply play AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 1010, 99, and AKs, AK, AQs, AJs, 88, 77, from late middle position and beyond and the first 9 listed from any position. Occasionally throw in Poket pairs and a suited A from the button with 4 or more players.
Rememeber, VOP stands for Valley of PATIENCE. Come join our town and let the Suckers pay you off. They can only hold the chips, NEVER keep em.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
SPM,
As hard as it is, you have to stay in the VoP! It is better to be a janitor in the VoP, than to be a Mayor in Any2card town. From what I understand, the janitor's salary is higher. I would rather have 2 houses on Boardwalk and Park Place than hotels on Baltic and Mediteranian. As I know the job as Mayor is hard to give up, I am going to do you a favor SPM. YOUR FIRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and don't you ever show your face here again!! You are not wanted here!!
Oops, I am saying here as if I am there when I am not there because I am here, in the VoP. Let me be the first to say welcome to the newly appointed janitor of VoP, SPM!!!! Congrats! and I wish you a long and happy career here!
Best Wishes,
Fidster :^)
umm...excuse me...remember me? i am the CURRENT janitor...the one who's contract is so good because of MY negotiating skills. And if you'll read that lil bitty grey clause on the back of page 46 of my contract, it states that i am granted tenure. So it's okay if you want to offer SPM to the club...but i got janitor locked up...forever. nice try.
Desire,
Oops, I am sorry, just like me to forget the small clauses. I always remember the big clauses, like the Santa and Mrs. Clauses, but miss the small ones. Ok, maybe not janitor, but how about we find a little sumthin sumthin in the way of a job in our town for SPM? I will leave it up to you Desire, let him know what's available.
Thanks, and sorry!,
Fidster :^)
P.S. Merry Chistmas to all and to all A good night! (got that from the big Clauses)
sheesh..i can't fool anyone..heh
i wonder if it's my perfume..how does everyone know it's me??
*wink*..see ya soon
Why is 72o the worst hold'em hand? Does that include both heads-up and multi-way? At first glance, I would play 82o anyday to 72o. Then I would win every no-pair. I would have a higher kicker when the 2 flops and blah, blah. . . ?
I see your a member of Any2card Town. As the Mayor can I help with rag removal proplems, you may be having.
SPM,...on the job...
Please alow me to correct each of you on your fuzzing thinking.
#1 The Hollywood Casino Poker room, already has a player called the Janitor, he cleans up in the 10-20 game. For his real identity, look for me in the poker room.
#2 The SPM already has a job. I defend the player's right, to play any two cards, from any position. This is a thankless job, but someone has to do it. I promise you I have no time for any other job.
Mr. Fidster, Membership into the VoP requires the patience of a Sainted Rock. Rocks mentally muck the junk before seeing the second card, "Release!" cried the Rock. Many think they have membership into the VoP, but I promise you, eviction notices are common in the VoP.
SPM, ...I'll be crossing over to the VoP soon, watch for more adventures of the SPM...
Went to visit Grandma, aunts, uncles and cousins back in Montana over Thanksgiving. on the big day we had a little pre-dinner cocktail party at gramma's 5th floor apt. the weather and the views were beautiful with the Bridger range to the east, Hyalite to the south and the snow capped Spanish Peaks to the southwest. In the spirit of the holidays we invited friends and let the champagne flow freely, a little too freely for some. we recongregated at Uncle's house for the dinner. by this time "Jim", who is a friend of a friend, felt so good he broke out his bottle of rum. shortly thereafter he was in the living room saying to 90 year old Gramma in slurred syllables that she had "really seen alot of years, really seen alot of years", all the while swaying back and forth like a tamarack in a gentle breeze. But Jim was running good and he made it through dinner. for dessert he chose to be tits up on the couch snoring like a freight train and farting loudly every so often. The dinner was good, the gravy was great and everyone had a good time.
The poker in Bozeman is not as good as thanksgiving. I did manage to find a game though. learned how to play Omaha and 7CS, hi-lo split. the rake was ridiculous but dealers and players were a good time. I was able to offset the high rake by taking advantage of the free Pabst Blue Ribbon for the players. I made out pretty good but only because I was catching cards like you wouldn't believe. the poker gods gave me an early X-mas.
Lucky Lil's run by TJ?
$$
I just read where Slick is considering some sort of clemency for Indian activist Leonard Peltier, convicted of murdering two FBI agents in 1975(how long ago that seems...) at Wounded Knee, SD.
I do not know all the facts of his case, but what I have seen, combined with what everybody I know who's familiar(people all over the spectrum) with it has told me, leaves me little doubt the man got stone railroaded.
I don't necessarily think he should be pardoned(no need to further traumatize the victim's families), but commutation to time served might be appropriate.
Knowing Slick, he'll pardon Jonathan Pollard and those Puerto Rican terrorists, and leave Peltier in the hole.
Rick, do you have any of your great links to info on the Peltier case?
Not quite as important but I heard today that Clinton will finally visit the only state he has not visted during his term in office. The state is Nebraska where his results were very poor in both 1992 and 1996.
BillM,
From the title of your post I thought you were going to say that Clinton would tell Gore to back off for the good of the country. LOL!
Anyway, just type Leonard Peltier into www.google.com and you will get many good sites.
Regards,
Rick
Let me start by saying that I generally sit with the Left. Way to the Left. Like there is no Leftist party in the US, just one to the right and one in the center.
Having said that, let me go on to say that there is nothing worse about the Left than the utter crap they spew out about Leonard Peltier and Mumia Abu-Jamal (if possible, even worse than Peltier).
You want some links?
Check out these:
www.frontpagemag.com/het/2000/billingsley03-10-00.htm and even better is, www.noparolepeltier.com
Peter Matthiessen is not telling the truth. Furthermore, he is aware of the falsehoods in the arguments he makes. There is no Mr.X; it was a deliberate fiction from the get go. The organizations working to free Peltier in one way remind me of the cult of Sai Baba, the people in the inner circle know it is all bullshit. I lean towards thinking the same thing of the people involved with Mumia Abu-Jamal but they have not come out with a central lie to explain it all away like the Peltier group. Finally, I would also like to point out that I think it is shameful that instead of focusing attention on the economic and social conditions that both of these minority groups are afflicted with, so much time and energy and money is devoted to these cases. It is like they think that if they can make the courts call white black, or night day that they have achieved something substantial.
If you want to find out about some people who were genuinely railroaded go to www.wm3.org. They have gotten some publicity but nowhere near their due. One of them is facing a possible execution as soon as this coming year.
This would not be something decent for Clinton to do. If he went ahead with it, it would be among his worst blunders. On the short list with NAFTA and GATT.
Like I said, I don't know all the facts of the Peltier case. I'll check out those links.
A lot of people on the Right would like to see Peltier freed, too(based partly(IMO) on the 60 Minutes(?) show years ago). The Right is a lot more sympathetic to Indians than other minorities, IMO.
"Having said that, let me go on to say that there is nothing worse about the Left than the utter crap they spew out about Leonard Peltier and Mumia Abu-Jamal (if possible, even worse than Peltier). "
IMO The Left's lionization of Mumia has been a public relations disaster and has cost it dearly in terms of credibility and support from Moderates.
Mumia is guilty, and he's admitted he's guilty. I don't believe he should be executed though, as this would make him even more of martyr/Golden Calf then he already is. I'd actually like to see him get another trial, so long as cameras weren't allowed in the courtroom.
"Finally, I would also like to point out that I think it is shameful that instead of focusing attention on the economic and social conditions that both of these minority groups are afflicted with, so much time and energy and money is devoted to these cases. It is like they think that if they can make the courts call white black, or night day that they have achieved something substantial. "
Excellent points.
Bill
The really bad thing about the Jamal case is that there really are probably a lot of innocent black men on deathrow who got shitty counsel. But this guy isn't one of them. And holding him up as a victim does a disservice to real victims of injustice. Not just symbolically, but realistically if resources that should be applied to fighting for real social and criminal justice are misallocated due to his cause celebre.
JG
I read a transcript of an interview with Gore and CNN newsman John King. In it Gore states again for the upteenth time that all the votes should be counted. King didn't pursue this very well which is typical of the media IMO. They should quit "throwing soft ball" questions at these guys. I wish King would have asked Gore the following:
If he (Gore) really believes that all the votes should be counted how come he is only asking for the votes in Dade County that were rejected by the machines to be examined? Why not examine all votes that were rejected throughout the state? Why not ask for a manual recount of all the votes in Dade County?
Why do you (Gore) support the efforts in Seminole County to have the absentee votes disallowed on the flimsiest technicality?
Why did you (Gore) mount a systematic effort to get absentee ballots rejected?
Why did you (Gore) only ask for a hand recount in the counties that you felt were the most favorable to you? If you (Gore) wanted every vote to count why didn't you ask for a hand recount in at least more counties in Florida?
Why are you (Gore) seeking to have the ballots in Palm Beach County that were rejected to be reconsidered when you got your manual recount (well almost) and you had an all Democratic canvassing board making the decisions on the ballots?
The bottom line on all this is that Gore is most certainly being disingenuous (lying through his teeth) when he states that he wants all the votes counted. What he really wants is only those votes recounted that will net him more votes. I certainly don't know if this is true but I suspect that the US Supreme Court decision will be very critical in this process. If Bush gets a big victory in the US Supreme Court the election is over. If Gore wins a victory, then I could believe that it is possible for the Courts to overturn the election and make it stick. I do believe that the Republicans in the Florida legislature and the Republicans in Congress will spring to action if this election is overturned in some way by the Florida Courts unless Gore gets a victory in the US Supreme Court. Then I believe the Replicans in Florida and Congress might be reluctant to act.
I suspect that the Florida legislature will pre-empt the U.S. Supreme Court (which should make for some very interesting reading in the Supreme Court decision). I agree with you about the softball questions. I just learned a few days ago that the "butterfly" ballot was designed by Palm Beach Democrats and approved by both parties. Seems like the media has been playing this up as if it was a demon instrument created by the Republicans to disenfranchise Democrat voters (not to mention voters who are willing to show how stupid they are by admitting they can't follow a 1/4"-thick arrow over to the proper name; yeah, TV-people, go ahead, "put a face on those voters", show me the morons of Florida). Another area the media has lightly played over has been the fact that the main person heading up Al Gore's Florida recount campaign is no other than Bill Daley, son of the all-time greatest election thief in U.S. history.
And that’s why you should never waste time voting.
Any poker player should realize that, you have a greater chance of being killed, going to or from the voting booth, than the chance that your vote will ever effect the outcome.
Here we have the closest election that ever was ( or, likely, ever will be ) and your vote still doesn’t matter.
What if everyone felt this way?
Then I’d change my thinking and vote.
If he (Gore) really believes that all the votes should be counted how come he is only asking for the votes in Dade County that were rejected by the machines to be examined?
ans: Simple. The Gore team believed that the only problems were in those specific counties which would be more favorable to his votes. What are you stupid?
Why do you (Gore) support the efforts in Seminole County to have the absentee votes disallowed on the flimsiest technicality?
ans: Flimsiest technacality? Check what happened. You are listening to the GOP spin doctors. Ballots are returned without registrations; Republican's knowing the votes are for them get Jeb Bush (dah) to allow them to put numbers on them after the fact in a room after hours without oversight. Sounds like stacking the deck to me.
Why did you (Gore) mount a systematic effort to get absentee ballots rejected?
ans: The answer you get from the GOP spin doctors is essentially that The Liberals hate the military. The real answer (and I am surprised you cannot figure it out) is simple. The absentee votes would favor Bush. Similarily the reason the GOP do not want the Dade count votes counted is because the votes would favor Gore. This is simple stuff. No doctorate required here.
Why did you (Gore) only ask for a hand recount in the counties that you felt were the most favorable to you?
ans: You must be kidding with this question.
Why are you (Gore) seeking to have the ballots in Palm Beach County that were rejected to be reconsidered when you got your manual recount (well almost) and you had an all Democratic canvassing board making the decisions on the ballots?
ans: the disputed votes are still under dispute and are in a separate pile to be reexamined because they were not counted by the machine correctly. Republicans are certainly going to be part of the recount. Much fairer than the Sect'y of States biased decisions hiding behind the law and the Florida leglislature's reaction. Who is pulling their strings?
Face it....Gore squeeked by and won the popular vote in the USA. This alleged Florida victory by Bush is even more crooked than Clinton's Whitewater and the Bush family's dealings with the Savings and Loan and theHouston Astros.
"Trust the Courts not the People" should be W's mantra. I really cannot wait for Bush the phoney to take the White House. It is pretty clear to me that GW cannot run a country. Daddy and Mommy will do the work along with the cronies in the Houston entourage which is just about 1 step better than the posse that surrounds Mike Tyson. I just love Bush's waving and frat boy swagger as he gets to the podium to address the Nation as he trys to read (fore the first time it seems) the teleprompter. Try something funny. Count the number of times he blinks. He looks like a deer in headlights. Yea, GW come lead the greatest nation on the planet. What a looser!
1. Flimsiest technicality... ballots were returned without registrations.
This is a lie. Read the briefs. The dems are griping that APPLICATIONS for absentee ballots were returned withoud voter id #s. It has nothing to do with the ballots themselves. This id# is for the convienence of the canvassing board and is not even a mandatory requirement for receiveing an absentee ballot.
2. Similarly the reason the GOP do not want the Dade votes counted is that they would favor Gore.
Speculation and conjecture. The votes were already machine counted. These ballots are designed to be counted by machines, not people. They just didn't have a vote for President. "Protest" ballots like this are not that uncommon, although they are more common on outdated punch ballots.
The reason the GOP does not want the Dade votes "counted" again is THAT THEY ALREADY WON. When you win a hand, you don't let your opponent draw another river card, do you? Additionally, Gore only carried 53% of the Dade vote. When they started their hand recount he yielded/devined 150+ votes from 20% of the precintcs where he carried 90% of the vote. The remaining precincts (including those that are primarily Cuban) should actually favor Bush. That is why the Cubans were outraged. The only reason why you should think the rest of Dade would yield more votes for Gore is if you think dem voters ar more incompotent at completing ballots, like Jesse Jackson does.
3. Much fairer than the Sec. of State hiding behind the law.
This is laughable even coming from a dem kool-aid drinker. Since when is applying the law "hiding behind the law"? Why have laws and voting procedures in the first place? Let's just have the Supreme Court and the canvassing boards divine the "intent of the voter" and the "will of the people" afterward.
4. Face it, Gore squeaked by and won the popular vote.
How can you say that since we haven't had a manula recount of the 2 million "undervotes" cast nationwide? What is good fro Florida is good for the rest of the nation.
5. ... as crooked as the Bush family's dealings with the Houston Astros.
The Bush family had nothing to do with the Houston Astros. GWB did put together the buying group for the Texas Rangers and then worked out a taxpayer-subsidzied deal for a new stadium. Happens all the time and is done with full public disclosure, including a voter referndum on stadium bonds and financing, etc. Certainly not akin to the croiminal activity of Nixon or Whitewater (alledgedly).
6. Republicans are certainly going to be part of the recount.
Yeah, just like they were "part of" in the Broward County charade. GOP guy: "Intent of voter indiscernible." Somewhat fair dem guy: "looks like a Gore vote" Female dem hack, without looking: "GORE". I watched that with my own eyes for an hour. The tyranny of the majority.
7. The disputed (Palm Beach) votes are still under dispute.
Dispute by whom? They were counted by the dem-dominated canvassing board, according to Algores rules. Sure, the newly found votes haven't been included in the total, but it (188 votes) wouldn't make a difference anyway.
Thanks for playing.
>>6. Republicans are certainly going to be part of the recount.
Yeah, just like they were "part of" in the Broward County charade. GOP guy: "Intent of voter indiscernible." Somewhat fair dem guy: "looks like a Gore vote" Female dem hack, without looking: "GORE". I watched that with my own eyes for an hour. The tyranny of the majority. <<
Did the Female dem hack ever give her response first? If not this was also blatently unfair. I watched this sham as well and couldn't believe what was transpiring. Once I saw the GOP guy say the vote was a Gore vote, the dem guy, say it was a Gore vote, and then the dem female hack said it was a no vote. The dem guy asked her about it and she quickly changed it to Gore.
I wonder if this is the typical Gore supporter response. It must be and I have a few responses of my own.
My Question:
If he (Gore) really believes that all the votes should be counted how come he is only asking for the votes in Dade County that were rejected by the machines to be examined?
Your answer:
ans: Simple. The Gore team believed that the only problems were in those specific counties which would be more favorable to his votes. What are you stupid?
My answer:
So your answer is that he is not really interested in counting ALL of the votes rejected by the machines, he is only interested in counting those votes rejected by machines that have the HIGHEST PROBABILITY OF BEING FAVORABLE TO HIM (GORE). Thank you for confirming that Gore is lying through his teeth when he states that having ALL votes counted is a fundamental element of the democratic process. I now see what the Democratic process is.
My Question:
Why do you (Gore) support the efforts in Seminole County to have the absentee votes disallowed on the flimsiest technicality?
Your answer:
ans: Flimsiest technacality? Check what happened. You are listening to the GOP spin doctors. Ballots are returned without registrations; Republican's knowing the votes are for them get Jeb Bush (dah) to allow them to put numbers on them after the fact in a room after hours without oversight. Sounds like stacking the deck to me.
My Answer:
Michael7 is correct in his response to your assertation. What the Democrats are saying is the the REQUESTS for Absentee Ballots that should have had a registration number on them should have been discarded and new ones should have been issued in order to comply with the law. What happened was that instead of sending out new requests for absentee ballots with the numbers on them, they simply added the appropriate registration numbers to the REQUESTS for absentee ballots. Because of this the Democrats want to throw out all absentee ballots cast in this country which went to Bush. We're not talking about actual absentee ballots with this lawsuit, it is the REQUESTS for absentee ballots. I've heard a few talking heads state that they feel that this is Gore's best chance to overturn the election. If this is his best chance it's over folks. Please get your facts straight.
My Question:
Why did you (Gore) mount a systematic effort to get absentee ballots rejected?
Your answer:
ans: The answer you get from the GOP spin doctors is essentially that The Liberals hate the military. The real answer (and I am surprised you cannot figure it out) is simple. The absentee votes would favor Bush. Similarily the reason the GOP do not want the Dade count votes counted is because the votes would favor Gore. This is simple stuff. No doctorate required here.
My answer:
Thanks for confirming that Gore is lying through his teeth when he states that he wants to see ALL votes counted because it is fundamental to the democratic process. I know he really meant Democratic process.
My Question:
Why did you (Gore) only ask for a hand recount in the counties that you felt were the most favorable to you?
Your answer:
ans: You must be kidding with this question.
My answer:
Thanks for confirming that Gore is lying through his teeth when he states that he wants to see ALL votes counted because it is fundamental to the democratic process.
My Question:
Why are you (Gore) seeking to have the ballots in Palm Beach County that were rejected to be reconsidered when you got your manual recount (well almost) and you had an all Democratic canvassing board making the decisions on the ballots?
Your answer:
ans: the disputed votes are still under dispute and are in a separate pile to be reexamined because they were not counted by the machine correctly. Republicans are certainly going to be part of the recount. Much fairer than the Sect'y of States biased decisions hiding behind the law and the Florida leglislature's reaction. Who is pulling their strings?
My answer:
The disputed votes are being disputed by Gore after being examined manually after two machine counts rejected them as no votes. Gore didn't like the criteria used by the canvassing board which is all Democrats because it didn't yield him enough votes pure and simple. It's an issue of law and fairness because the Palm Beach County complied with Florida law, the Florida District Court Order and the Florida Supreme Court Order. After having the law interpreted his (Gore's) way, winning all the court battles, and having three Democrats decide which no votes should be counted, Gore still doesn't like the outcome simply because it didn't give him enough votes. I submit that Gore isn't concerned about fairness or the law in the least.
>>Face it....Gore squeeked by and won the popular vote in the USA. This alleged Florida victory by Bush is even more crooked than Clinton's Whitewater and the Bush family's dealings with the Savings and Loan and theHouston Astros.<<
I'll defer to Michael7's comments.
>>"Trust the Courts not the People" should be W's mantra. I really cannot wait for Bush the phoney to take the White House. It is pretty clear to me that GW cannot run a country. Daddy and Mommy will do the work along with the cronies in the Houston entourage which is just about 1 step better than the posse that surrounds Mike Tyson. I just love Bush's waving and frat boy swagger as he gets to the podium to address the Nation as he trys to read (fore the first time it seems) the teleprompter. Try something funny. Count the number of times he blinks. He looks like a deer in headlights. Yea, GW come lead the greatest nation on the planet. What a looser! <<
Everybody's entitled to an opinion. What I am fast learning is that a great deal of Gore supporters don't want to familiarize themselves with the facts and have no interest in fairness to ALL voters that their leader has espoused. The only people Gore is kidding are his followers. Yes thanks for playing.
I do not know why I wasted my time. You two guys above are purely victims of the GOP spin. That's OK. If you guys like the GOP ideology, then I can agree with both of you. Frankly I have been a Republican voter for years, but in this election I could not. I supported and voted for Reagan, Bush Sr., Ford, and sadly Nixon, but GW Bush is a moron. He is so unqualified to be President of the US, that we are a joke in the rest of the world.
I am in no way shape or form a Goron. I detest the Clinton administration. I think he is an immoral, cheat and crook. Gore is a victim of the Clinton machine. Had he used Clinton better he would have won the election by 3-4%, but he chose not to. Gore should have been President 8 yrs ago instead of Clinton.
Bush lost the election in spite of the attempt by his brother and his henchwoman to steal Florida--pure and simple. Face it, the GOP hate the Clinton admin so much they will do anything to defeat him. Follow GW down the road. He will break. He makes Dan Quayle look smart. I nominate GW for dope of the year. Any seconds?
Why be concerned about uncounted ballots in Dade County? Because it's heavily Republican and the voting fraud capital of the U.S. Voting fraud in the local elections dominate the news in Dade. It is standard practice among Cubano-American politicians. Were these votes left "uncounted" recognized as votes for Gore? I would be surprised if they weren't.
The Nazi loving Bushes have proclaimed a very corrupt Fuehrer. Well, he'll fail. Its unforuntate that the American Public will pay for it, just as his friends and relatives lost huge amounts of money investing in his failed oil comnpany( while he personally enriched himself. sounds like fraud, just like the election.)
As the Mayor of Any2card Town I may be impeached for letting the cat out of the bag, but I'm just reckless.
Any2willdo, oh it's so hard to resit the call of any2cards. There should be a warning sign on all rag hands, like they have on cigaretts.
Warning playing these rags maybe dangerous to your bank roll. Once a rag hand is played, solid play may alude you for sometime.
Now you know the real truth about rags, and the danger that lives in winning with the rag hand. Sure winning ugly is fun, but when the rush is over and your still playing with rags, you will always be hit with a statistical cleansing. This usless damage to your bank roll can be avoid, just never play with rags. Like your parents always told you, don't play with matches. Same message here.
SPM, ...a mayor who's one step ahead of total disaster...
P.S. Help! Some one please alert Dr B.F. Skinner, My bank roll is depressed, this Mayor needs graft and his insight.
Good thing for you guys in the 52nd state that ALgore is American.
Wondering what was the 51st? Mexico?
Puerto Rico.
and i passed it on to my son, who passed it on to his son. And he traded a mule for it. and that mule went on to save spring break.
a.
The Gambling Exchange
November 2000 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo