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I play 10-20 at Harrah's and was wondering what your name is. I would guess you are the character known as Lee, who goes to Harrah's but I could be wrong.
Haven't been around lately. But, Suburban Poker Man was referred to as such, right at the table, when I used to play a Harrah's, East Chicago, Ind. He comes to PLAY cards, not throw them. Good atmosphere and vibes with him.
Usually it's a lot cheaper to just pay for the room.
I just got back from a 4 day trip where I stayed at the MGM, which on a 1 to 10 I give a solid 3! The food was lousy and overpriced.I played about 15 hours of 21 at an average of 100 per hand and couldn't even get a buffet ticket! Fortunately I beat the tight bastards and ate elsewhere. Dino.
Don't spend all the money you save from all those huge tax cuts in one place. LOL!
Welcome to Nazi America.
-SmoothB-
That comment was about as stupid as they come.
Bush is proving to be a good decent honest president a few things we havent had for 8 years. As for the tax cau it IS coming and we deserve it.
I want some of my money back and the economy needs the boost too. Besides the IRS will gain revenue as a result of it as it did in the 80's the only reason for the deficits was the overspending.
vv
...just cause your guy lost don't spit on my America with idiotic claims of "Nazi America". Maybe if your talking bobble-head doll could've won his home state, Bush wouldn't be the elected leader of the free world. Time for some integrity in Washington. Yessiree!!!
You're nothing but a sore loser dufus. Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha ------you voted for GORE Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha.......he lost AGAIN!!!! You probably voted for Clinton too!! Him and Hillary got this cash cow going called "pardongate" Ha, ha, ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha they are crooks and dolts like you love them!! Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha don't feel too bad, Massachusetts just re-elected fat Teddy again Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha. Wake up and smell the coffee Adolf
No. No. No. You got it all wrong!You jus say what they tell you to say. You don't think on your own. Clinton was attacked from day one, why? Democrats only try to help the workers of this country. People like you. Democrats got Social Security for you, don't forget. "W" is an unelected President, put in the White House by the Supreme Court and Justice Thomas. I voted for Gore, all my life I voted democrat. Democrats are for the worker. If you wait for your boss to give you anything, you don't have a chance. All benefits for worker are here because of Labor Unions and democrats ideas. Period. I don't care who is running, I vote democrat. That new carrier should have been named "Jimmy Carter". Gore lost the election because he was afraid to run on the administration record of the last eight years and because the great majority of the workers of this country don't vote. Do you vote?
Also, he lost his State because he is "for" gun control, and to win Florida all he had to do was asked Clinton to go there and campaign for him. Simple.
...Gore lost because he wasn't able to overcome the scumbag actions of Clinton. What a dope you sound like defending Clinton. Gore tried to distance himself from Clinton, but obviously it didn't work. You sound like a little kid who lost your little league game and you're blaming it on the umpire.
Gore lost Florida because the Latinos switched from 75% Democratic in the last presidential election to about 50-55% this time. This was fallout from the Elian Gonzalez incident which was orchestrated by Clinton and fat dyke Janet Reno.
And yes I voted. And if you think Clinton is for the workers because he and his lesbian wife are Democrat, you should send resumes to them to be their lifetime busboy. Maybe Hillary will let you watch!!!
Wow..good point about the latino vote being lost because of the Elian Gonzalez case. I honestly had not thought of that. Maybe it cost the democrats the election. Blows the mind.
...is that even though I voted for Bush, I'm honest enough to admit the Latino 'switch' was for the wrong reason. For one of the few times in his 8 yr tenure of shame and disgrace, I supported Clinton in the Elian Gonzalez case. The Hispanic "backlash" did nothing more than punish Gore for Clinton's correct (IMO) decision. Truth is, if Gore wins his HOME state, Florida is barely a side bar to the presidential voting outcome.
Well, I refuse to defend Clinton ever again. I did it enough in the past eight years. Pardongate, in my opinion, was the prostitution of the Constitution. He sold american justice to fugitives, convicted swindlers of the american people, well-connected drug dealers and cronies and old friends from his past such as that broad, her name escapes me at the moment, that was involved heavily in the Arkansas bank fraud situation with him and Hillary. How very skanky and short-sighted of him, and underscores most politicians complete disdain for the american voter's ability to digest and remember their ill behavior for very long. I will never vote for a Clinton again. However Bush scares the hejeebees outa me. The only real area I thought he was dangerous was the environment and this country's irreplacable natural resources, which he is well into destroying already. Alaska will never be the same after Bush. Nor will some of the other pristine natural land held in public trust that he will allow to be stripped and left smoking. Let's hope this four years flies by with as least damage as possible.
I'll say this again I did not have any sexual relations with that women.
You won't find me disagreeing with that statement. I would find it hard to believe you've ever gotten any..period.
Would you like to come and work for me at my Georgetown office sweety.(heh, heh, heh). Hillary takes off at long periods of time.
nahhhhhhh, i hear you got a dribbling problem ..
Clinton"s popularity was always very high. Still is. I don't understand why you hate them so much, Clinton and Hillary. I never liked Ronald Reagan and now we know he was mentally sick when he was President, always protected by Nancy. But still he is a national hero. I din't like Clinton not going in the army, but is "W"'s record any better? In today N.Y.Times there is an article about W's father, Mr. Baker, the Vicepresident, and W himself conections with certain Carlisle Corp. Read it. Do you read the N.Y.Times?. May be you are right about Gore losing Fla. to the latino vote. But you are confusing latino with cubans. And aren't you ashamed about a little group of immigrants deciding the presidency of the free world. With republicans in control worker will have to work harder and the rich will get richer. About 3 million children go to sleep hungry every day in this country. Did you know that? (How about you, desire?) These are facts you can't deny. Gore's campaign was all show bussiness. After every dabate he was a different person. W is a very lucky man. I wish I had his luck at the poker table. Everything in like has been handed to him and now the presidency. He has been in the right place at the right time with the right father and conections. Clinton was correct on Elian Gonzales. Gore received more votes that W nation wide. You call Ted Kennedy, fat Teddy. Are you overweight? You say that Hillary Clinton, The Senator from N.Y is a lesbian and Janet Reno a dyke. How do you know? What kind of sex do you practice? You seem to be preocupied with the subject. Why don't you comment about the Supreme Court actions and Justice Thomas in particular deciding the election?
Don't you dare point an accusatory finger at me while stating the sad fact that children go to bed in this country hungry. Point that finger at their parents. Nature is cruel. She allows the most inept people to propagate. This, sadly enough, is a fact that niether republicans nor democrats have much power to control. There is no reason that anyone's child should go hungry in this country if the parents would just own up to their responsiblity and shoulder the task of putting their children ahead of their own selfish desires. How are you gonna legislate responsibilty to one's child? Which law would you propose to accomplish that? The only answer to this, as to all ignorance, is education. The willingness to learn, however, is paramount to success, to hunger to advance one's self. But first you must show people that there is a world outside of their own dank foreboding one. One that they are capable of reaching. Combatting hopelessness is a very real problem that begs effort on the part of us all.
desire: good point. I mentioned you because I was surprised that you didn't know about the spanish vote in Fla., So I thought that may be you didn't know about our hungry children. You are concern about the environment, me too. Do you recycle? I do. Education for the poor and ignorant, I agree. Where do you think they have the best chance to get it, from democrats or republicans goverment?
Neither.
N.T.
....could possibly see himself doing Janet Reno?
As far as Nurse Rachet Hillary, Clinton's ex-chief of staff outed her as a muff diver.
As for me, I'm happily married 14 years. My wife and I are hetero - and proud of it. Also, may I say that I vote vagina as being God's greatest creation - how bout you XXX??
he has no manhood
Please, who ever you are, use this forum for expression of ideas, not vulgar insults.
Why don't you comment about the Supreme Court actions and Justice Thomas in particular, deciding the election?
And please, use this forum for expression of ideas, not insults.
////////////
seems to me the Florida election was what it was - a narrow Bush victory. You sound lke a sore loser XXX. I believe a newspaper recounted the ballots in one of the counties all the sore loser democrats were crying that had been stolen from Gore, and it still turned out a Bush victory. Time to move on XXX - the "insult" is when people like you keep tring to re-hash the past because a result didn't turn out the way you wanted it to.
As for Clarence Thomas, he is a fine, upstanding Supreme Court justice, and should be much more worthy of respect as an African-American that has accomplished something with his life - more than cheating on his wife like scumbags Martin Luther King or Jesse (the "spitter" and "Hymie-Town NYC") Jackson.
qqqq
Chuck, Mason and David, This is your site and you have every right to accept posts from whoever you want. I know that doing so is necessary to keep this great site going. Still, as a rational person, I cannot withhold my objection to KJS's post, which features the currently politically correct hate speech, censorship, the attack upon the (spirit of the) 1st amendment. People visit this site to talk about poker. I say keep KJS and his communist attack upon our american ideals out of it.
brad
brad,
You and others continue to misrepresent my argument. I am for MORE speech, not less. I want everyone on this forum and in society in general to register MORE objection to things they disagree with. More protest, more speech, more opinions, more forums. That is my mantra. I am absolutely against censorship in any way shape or form. I know its legacy and repurcussions firsthand. Years ago, I fought vehemently to keep my boss out of jail for selling a magazine. (Bellingham's The Newstand sale of Answer Me! 4 was prosecuted by Whatcom County on obscenity grounds). I don't like religion and did not like being subjected to an ad that I consider part of a prostelytizing culture. That's it. I would prefer to see other ads that aren't associate with religion. That's it. My opinion. I did not say "take it down"; I said I would prefer other types of ads. Those in charge of this site can put up whatever ads they want. I don't have to like them, and I certainly don't have to keep quiet if I don't. To request that I do (as some here have) is censorship of my opinion, and I object to that.
KJS
That earthquake was punishment for your commie, anti-god beliefs. I hope you feel guilty.
//
,
//
With your statement, Brad, you are representing the "ignorant" american. The mentality of the 50's: if you are against reiligion you must be a comunist, if you are for Unions for the laborer you must be a comunist, if you want Social Security you must be a comunist, etc. Do you need any more examples. Respect KJS opinions, he is not a comunist, he is an atheist in a free country.
why is he against guns?
also, at least i post my name and email address.
brad
No comments.
How many times have I heard an (atheist) non-beleiver mumble "god- damnit" or "Jesus Christ" under his breath after a garbage hand two-pair suckout his pocket Aces on the river. I know I lost count.
So? That doesn't mean anything.
I don't want to make a big deal out of this. It's a bit nitpicky. But I don't feel I should just ignore it either. In his recent Card Player article (the one currently on the Card Player website, Bob Ciaffone says:
On a poker forum, I saw the suggestion (for pot-limit) that you should bet the size of the pot in all situations, to make yourself hard to read.
He goes on to explain why he sees this as a poor idea.
I have no conceptual problem with the article. The problem is that he says, or at least strongly implies, that the idea of uniform bet sizing in PL came from someone on the Forum. But it didn't. I should know because I was the one who brought it up here, not as a suggestion of my own, but in quoting verbatim T.J. Cloutier's recommendation that one should always bet the size of the pot in PL hold'em. (See my two posts, Saturday, 6 January 2001, at 6:59 p.m. and 11:45 p.m., General Theory Forum) At no point did I "suggest" this tactic. I mentioned clearly that others, notably Cloutier, suggested it. And I don't want the credit for it. I don't currently play PL and, accordingly, have made no suggestions here or elsewhere concerning how to play it.
To be fair, the phrase, "I saw the suggestion", is fairly general, and someone else in the thread may have supported Cloutier's recommendation. But it was clear where the idea came from in the thread. And to say, "On a poker forum, I saw the suggestion...", rather than something like, "I understand T.J. Cloutier suggests...", seems a bit misleading, and pins an idea which Ciaffone doesn't like on a poster here (me?) rather than on Cloutier who obviously deserves the "credit". Again, I may be nitpicking a bit here, and this misattribution may have been totally inadvertent on Ciaffone's part. I would like to think it was. I don't know if Ciaffone will care to respond but, either way, I wanted to set the record straight - FWIW.
I noticed this in the BC article also, although I didn't relate it directly to you. Could it be that BC hasn't read TJ's book, or that he doesn't want to take on another CP writer in his column?
I think it's obvious that bet sizing and pot manipulation are important strategies in PL, so betting the size of the pot every time would not be advisable. BC's PL book is far better than TJ's.
Now a question for JF: Wouldn't it be more of a test of your skills to play the O11 PL game than the CC 80?
.
John,
Are you posting on this forum in hopes that Mark Glover doesn't see it? ;-))
John
As a matter of fact, I've been anticipating Mark's response with some dread. You see, I forgot the second parenthesis in the first paragraph. I fear I'm dead meat. :-/
Ken,
Hope you survived the shake-up alright. I seem to remember that you live outside Oly. Nothing major here. A bit of shaking up on the 18th floor of a downtown Seattle office building (5th and Pike). No major damage. South Seattle, Tacoma and Oly look much worse off.
KJS
Yeah it was interesting.
Sitting at work and the room shakes and when the roof starts shaking I am wondering if it is coming down. But it stopped a bit later without any damage to work.
At home, some glasses and dishes flew out of the kitchen cabinets. My daughters room looked like a mess since her dresser fell down. Also a few small tv's fell down but didn't break.
And to think we didn't move to California years ago because of earthquakes and didn't realize that this area is almost as bad!
Ken Poklitar
This is a personal thing and you shouldn't read it if you got something better to do.
Did you guys know that you can spell judgment like this or like judgement? It's o.k. really. Do you know which one is considered old english? Did you know that there was a controversy about this very subject involving William safire? now which way do you think he spells it?
vince.
Vince
I don't know how he spells it but I am interested in Your judgement.
Are we getting together for a ham and cheese sandwich the next time you are in town?
Good Luck
Howard
As long as I get to buy!
Vince
Vince,
Either is correct, but I spell it without the e. Of course, what I find hard to believe is that anyone could take you to task for your spelling ;-}
John
Figures you and Safire would spell it wrong even if it's correct. I most be Old English.
vince
Vince,
Actually, you're still talking about modern English not Old English. The Old English word for judgment is "dom." Easy spelling, huh? Also, when you combine "judgment" and "day" in Old English, you get "domesday," or at least a word very similar to that, from which we derive "doomsday." So, "doomsday" is really "judgment day." Glad you asked, no?
John
Go ahead, make my day!
vince
Vince,
I thought you were Old Italian. What happened?
Rick
I'm an Old Italian Liar (OIL). I was just hoping noone noticed my claim to being English. Leave it up to a real Italian wanna be like Rick Almost Italian Nebiolo (RAIN) to.. well, RAIN on my parade and then use OIL to feed the fire. Sheesh!
vince
I just wish more people would get the "your/you're" and "their/there/they're" thing right.
If in doubt, give your former Vice-President a call for spellcheck. What was his name again?
E's are too valuable a letter to waste when they are not required.
JG
Ys, that is vry tru.
John Fny
John Fny? I like that. Yuh. John F-n-y or phonetically it coud be: John Fu-n-ay Pronounouced Funnay or funny but if that were the case I guess it would be "Funny John Fny" or Funny John for short.
vince
On the occasion, let me repost again one of the funniest text I found at the Web.
Zbych, ------------- English Adopted as Official Language of EU!
The European Commission has just announced the agreement whereby English will be the official language of the EU rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5 year phase-in-plan that would be known as "Euro-English."
In the first year s will replace the soft c. Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy.
The hard C will be dropped in favour of the k. This should klear up konfusion and komputer keyboards kan have one less letter.
There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome ph will be replased with the f. This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.
In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double leters which have always been a deterent to akurat speling.
Also al wil agree that the horible mes of the silent e in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.
By the 4th yer peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing the th with z and w wiz v. During ze fifz yer ze unesesary o kan be dropd from vords kontaining ou and similar changes vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
After ziz fifz yer ve vil hav a rali sensibl riten styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech ozer.
ZE DREM VIL FINALI KUM TRU! -----------
Bravo!
Any changes in the room lately? Same people still in charge? Is the room still in the same spot? Haven't been around lately.
Yeah the idiots added a line on all tables so if cuz the dealers and some players are to stupid to know where the chips ought to be or IF a hand is mucked.
The food is still comped every few hours but the f--king selfish bastards take truck loads of the stuff so only a small % of the players get fed.
Only yesterday they brought out some tasty looking burgers and plenty of buns for the players to eat the bastards were making tripple and double deckers so the rest of us had nothing to eat - god I hate Chicago and the rotten poker rooms here.
O.K., thanks.
Haven't been around since a dealer thought it strange of me, that a player not be allowed to work crossword puzzles, from a newpaper, while having part of the poker table obscured from my view. According to her I was the problem, for being too "particular". Where in the ENTIRE COUNTRY, is a player allowed to cover a portion of a gaming table, with a newspaper? Geez!
That followed a series of days, when the 10/20 game started. 20/40 had not yet started. A 20/40 player would take a seat in the 10/20 game, play ten minutes, then go to "lunch". That produced a short-handed game, with a list, and a seat locked. The player would return, an HOUR or more later, then QUIT THE GAME. The 20/40 would begin, and that player would play, and later take another "lunch", from that game. There was more than one person, doing that.
Management never came-up with a solution for the horrendous amount of "walking" on the games. Forty and fifty minutes "walking".
Yesterday - I was distracted and missed the guy next to me raise pre flop - I put my bet in the "circle" and noticed the raise - NO ACTION behind me - I was not allowed to pull back my bet - option given to me was fold with the bet in or call the raise I had a marginal hand on the button so I called - dealer was unaware of the action behind concept.
Later - bloody dealer hunched over the table obscuring my view of the 2 seat I was in the 9 seat - I had J2 in an unraised blind with a J77 flop 9-5 turn and river. I did the betting 3 handed. checked to me I just turned my J2 over and said 2 pair no kicker dealer scooped up the hand said it was dead and handed the pot to this guy who had bet and I didn't (couldn't) see. My hand was turned up.
Also the 1/2 assed players there like to show one card to win the pot and dealers let it happen in other worde the board is 4578A player shows a 6 and mucks.
This is crap - like I have been saying Hollywood and Harras would be good sights to build a casino.
Then there is Tony - the guy who balls out players for using off color language. I an not ever going to toke another dealer in that house.
Mike,
It would seem to me that a simple solution would be to not patronize any business establishment where you are not comfortable with the way things are run.
There are those that agree with your observations and those who do not. Personally, while I disagree with the way some things are done at both Casinos, I have found them to be tolerable for myself. If I did not, I would simply choose to travel and play elsewhere, move, or not play at all. I still think the games are excellent and very beatable. I personally believe that to be extremely important and I am willing to put up with some inconveniences to play in them.
Just some thoughts.
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
Mike-
Could you please let me in on which game is excellent and very beatable? I couldn't seem to find one tonight.
Kevin
Any game I am in judging by the way SPM keeps following me around and taking my chips.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
:-)
Don't hold back, Rounder, tell us how you really feel... JOJO, I've only been there once, a little over a year ago. I though it was OK. The dealers were horrible, but that's because they pool tips and there is no incentive to do a good job (did you know that Rounder?). The games were good, but the best part was all the friendly players that went out of their way to show me a good time. Of course I lost my ass on that trip, otherwise I might have given them a better rating.
Rounder, I'd like to say that the one thing I agree with you is that the manager of the East Chicago room is terrible and underqualified as far as I'm concerned. Don't like the management but the games there are phenominal on the weekends. I can put with some of their silly rules as long as the games stay good.
Have a nice day.....
Harrah's has this dealer that comes to Hollywood and is the most abusive to players. I had red Kings in the sb. He was the bb. It was raised by a fairly loose player UTG. I decided to reraise to not only isolate him, but to see just how strong UTG was. The BB called and so did UTG. Flop came 10h Jh 7c. UTG bets out and I raise, BB called. UTG reraised and I capped it. BB folds. Turn comes a Qh. UTG checks, I bet out. River comes a 7h. UTG bets out. I just call. He turns over A2h. I muck. The dealer from Harrah's went off. Calling me names that don't have the correct anatomy to accomplish, even if I were so inclined to commit incest. Seems he had pocket queens that he trashed, and I was the "m----- f------ idiot" that caused him to muck them. I got so furious that..and anyone that knows me, knows I don't take lightly to unkind unwarranted criticism..heh. I was winning over a rack, so I figured rather than play when I was not enjoying the game, I decided to rack up and leave. He called me another profanity and I called for the floor. Lisa, the floor supervisor listened and then told him, "You cannot use profanity in this room, Sir." He responded, and I quote, "So if I were to call her a m---- f----- b---- then that would be considered profanity?" She replied, "Yes it would." He repeated it and asked if she was sure. She told him again, yes. He didn't say anything else and she left the table. He then snarled, "watch your back on your ride home." Which set me off for real now. I called him everything but a first born son, and regretfully this included profanity. (heh) The floor was called over and I was informed that tit for tat was not acceptable either. The next trip, two of the regulars came up to me to greet me and I was blown away when one of them informed me that the guy that had threatened me was a poker dealer at Harrah's. I was even more furious now and spoke to Bob, Hollywood's Manager about it. He had a talk with him the next time he came in, but I was still totally blown away that a poker dealer would act like that. Another reason I won't play Harrah's tho.
desire,
I know of whom you speak. He used to be a “pro” and for a little while ran over the 20/40 games at Harrah’s. But the lady in red is not kind to those who choose to ignore the laws of probabilities, and this particular young buck did not have the bank role to back up his ignorance.
Our insightful floor man, Uncle Bob, once told a story about a man in Vegas who was in a very low limit stud game $1-3, I think. After about an hour he stands up and declares… how can these people be beating me …. I AM A WORLD CLASS PLAYER.. To which Uncle Bob wonders aloud “Where is he dealing now???”
….. obviously at Harrah’s LOL…….
Glad you gave him a piece of your mind… he deserved it.
Just an eggs thoughts.
Thank you, darlin' And about this player, he did seem to be a decent player, the little I had seen him play. And his play of folding the queens was absolutely the correct thing to do. He was beat at that juncture of the game. But I was totally blown away at not only his behavior but the fact that he was a dealer. And by the way, I am not particularly enamored of poker-playing dealers. I think they are treading a thin line. Inviting abuse from players when they are dealing and so on. And I am sure the hollywood regulars have given him his share of grief since then. An awful protective lot, they are.
Mason,
King Solomon is a biblical figure. Reincarnation a buddhist belief. A wonderfully multi-denominational analogy.
heh
In my opinion, 2+2 has the right to do anything they want, and KJS has the right to say anything he wants. For those that are calling KJS a commie, I will bet that they don't know what a comunist is. This is a bet I win.
Last Saturday the Suburban Poker Wife and I celebrated our sixth wedding anniversary. We went to a fine restaurant called Plaza Terrence, they had a band that played 40's music with a young female singer. I love 40's music! We ate with friends and celebrated Mrs. Friends birthday. A great evening had by all. The food was great, dancing was fabulous, it was my kind of music and okay a few too many drinks. However, I do take a total acid blocker and supplement it with a round or two of Pepsid, before any round of heavy drinking. Lest I forget, we had a designated driver. I love my wife, my life, and Texas Hold'em.
So how did I let this happen in just four short days? I don't know who else to talk to about this, the Caveman is out of town. I hope the readers of this post will have a empathetic eye on my words. I'm in love! Like a dumb kid and it isn't even spring. Tonight was our fourth night together, she was in red, a stone cold fox with style. I guess I should take you back to Sunday when I met her.
I was taking a break from the 10-20 Hold'em game at Hollywood Casino in Aurora, IL. The Epic Buffet was still serving brunch the institutionalized way, so I opted for the 50's style cafe, cheese burger, cheese burger, chips...I'm at the counter eating and this breath taking women sits right next to me. I couldn't help but notice she was knock out gorgeous. I was baptized a catholic so if I even have an impure thought, I pay the same price, as if I did it. You catholic's understand. So I swivelled my seat away so I won't think about it...
"Excuse me," she says "are you the SPM?" I think in my head, where's the nearest priest. It turns out she wanted to learn how to play Texas Hold'em. Why she came to me is another story. So she sits behind me the rest of the day and I had the best time and won big. She was funny, she thought I was funny, and the guys at the table were all jealous I'm sure. After the game we had a drink and she thanked me for a good time and that was it.
Until emotional Monday! I walk into the poker room and she was waiting for me, she looked good enough to eat. I wasn't sure what to think so I played it cool. She made my heart pond faster and faster, I thought I was getting an aerobic work out. She stayed and watched for two hours. I showed off some and won five stacks, then she had to go and I was depressed. I went on tilt and left with a much smaller win. I had trouble sleeping all night. I just kept thinking about her, like a love sick kid. I'm too old for this nonsense
When I got to the casino on Tuesday I knew she would be there. She had to be there, I wanted to see her in the worst of ways. I had an edge, I knew where there was a 24 hour confessional. Sure enough she was there and we kept brushing each other like a couple of kids. I couldn't lose, and she couldn't get close enough to see my cards. I asked her to go shopping with me after only four hours of play. So you see I was in deep.
She was there tonight again, we kissed and held hands. I showed her I could beat the Chairman, that sucker soocker mike. I Took one of his stacks and sent him packing! Everyone knew she was with me and no one believed any longer that I was teaching her anything about poker. So you can see it wasn't all my fault that I feel in love with Lady Luck.
SPM,...flirting with the edge...
I am sorry Mr. Mayor for ever having gotten mixed up in the hand with you. I should know when I am overmatched and you put me in my place. I just am grateful you only took some of my chips and not all of them.
I am truly not wanting to get picked on by the celebrity any more so please show some compassion for a poor dumb broken down and humiliated holdem junkie such as myself.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
wow, the best of SPM yet..shows what a complete master of both the english language and life itself the mighty SPM is ...unfortunately...Lady Luck ain't no lady...jmho..gl
Now do you remember the scene in Croc Dundee where he "checked" the old dame for the "right" equipment.
Well I'd give the lady in red the acid test you may be dealing with a tranie - it is one of the only explinations.
Now she asked you to teach her texas hold 'em. I would next have her checked for sanity.
I have seen this woman you speak of. Several of my friends have dated her. Be aware that her favorite form of amusement is taking her new found friends for a ride on the TILT-O-WHIRL in the park in Any2Card Town.
SPM,
By the way - A truly excellent Post.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
I recently strolled into a new city called Any 2 Card Town. It looked like a nice place to visit, with lots of fast looking streets and a lot of nice looking rags laying about in the gutters.
Street after street, I donated to the cause of helping those rags try to reunite with their hidden brothers. And yet, street after street, they remained hidden, and my rags stayed rags.
Only upon leaving Any 2 Card Town did I realize that the high local taxes imposed by the neighbours from the Valley had left me unable to continue my "Rag-Find 2001".
Something as fun as playing Any 2 Cards should be more profitable. Thats what I think. Please stamp my passport so I can have a souvenir of my time in this fine city.
David "Im sure that last 3 is coming" Ottosen
Is it a requirement to be a floorman that you be hard of hearing and inattentive? How many times have you sat at the table while the dealer yells for a floorman, while he stares at the TV or continues talking to a railbird? Don't answer that, I don't really want to know. Why can't these people hear when they are called? It drives me crazy.
Another thing that bothers me is the dealers in LA. Many of them speak very limited English. In a business where "English Only" is the rule, shouldn't a dealer be required to speak english before being hired? I have seen many, many problems caused by the dealer not understanding what a player said, or by a dealer who could not communicate with a player. If the cardrooms are going to hire these people, they should give them a crash course in conversational English.
End of rant.
3-Bet,
What did you say? Speak up next time because I lost my hearing working as a Floorman in the world's noisiest card club (Hollywood Park) :-).
Regards,
Rick
HP isn't even close to the noisiest. The one you just visited is a lot noisier, and so is the Commerce. I'll bet you have some good stories about the HP dealers trying to tell you the facts when you were called to make a decision.
3 Bet,
The Hollywood Park top section isn't too bad but I worked middle section during the day when we were filling games. At HP we called way too many games off the big board near the bathrooms.
I probably had good stories but now that my memory loss (due to old age I think) has set in I forgot them all.
Rick
3 Bet....First of all do you have any kids? If you do then you know how they can be whiney,iritable, and always wanting something. Well put the floorman in your shoes. You start to feel like a high priced babysitter. Believe me when I say this, we know who's doing all the whinning and that's probably why certain people get ignored. Hope you have a better understanding of how we feel at times. We all know that the squeeky wheel get oiled first and some poker players take full advantage.
Have a nice day............
She's a tramp! Her eyes said, I'll never leave you, and now she's gone! An evil low down dirty tramp and she'll always be a tramp! The pain of being ejected from the winning circle, is a low miserable nagging fear, that she may never come back. How can I get her back? As you read these words do you feel my pain. Good! Now I know you have met her and you know how intoxicating she can be.
Was tonight the beginning of a statistical cleansing or just the end of another dance with Lady Luck? The SPM was sleep deprived, and a little on edge when arriving at the casino. Deprived is not, good poker posture. On the alert scale the SPM was under weight. Playing form two Towns and a Valley all at the same time, can be summed up in one word, ridiculous.
SPM,...color me ridiculous...
;)
Sorry no room for the n/t get out of here before they see you.
SPM,...could I get in trouble for this...
I assume that most floormen are former dealers, but once you become a floorman, what is considered the next rung on the "ladder of success" in the casino industry, a shift supervisor over the floormen? If so, then what from there?
There doesn't seem to be a lot of opportunity for upward mobility in the casino industry for dealers or floormen. I've been playing in the L.A. area exclusively for about 11 years, and it seems like a fairly rare event to see a dealer go on to become a floorman(maybe dealers make more money than a floorman because of the tips, which would explain their reluctance to move up.) And the floormen working the daily tournaments where I play are the same people who have been running them for as long as I can remember.
It's a completely different story on the east coast where floormen and dealers routinely change places!!!
Hi Mason: I have problems playing long hours. I do best when I play one day, 7-8 hours and then take 2-3 days off. I'd like to be a pro some day. I don't think I can ever play 40 hours per week. Do you see this as a "you must have" thing. I'd noticed that you post in this forum in the early hours of the morning. Jim Brier too. I guess you both are back from the Casinos and check the forum before going to bed. You both are pros and I guess you play almost every day, that is why I am directing this question to you. If you think that this is a personal information, please ignore the question. No offence.
You have played long enough to know your limitations. Some folks never reach that point. Follow your own mind. From what you posted, if you try "40 hours" a week, you will either go broke, or insane. (BTW there are other players, such as you.)
I usually stay up late (and sleep late), that's why you see me posting at the times that I do. However, I only play part time now, mainly around the weekends, because I have many other projects which keep me busy.
Most pros do take a couple of days off a week and the best ones play a little less than 40 hours a week. Full time professional play is not for everyone, but it can be a good second job for many people.
Hey Mason did you not notice the handle of the original poster of this thread? *XXX* Now, what would the misses think?
Vince
Thank you Mason, to me you are an OK guy. Good luck to you in your weekend's game.
In my post below I ask MM and JB a direct question about playing long hours. I'd like to extend the same question to everyone in this forum, since I need help on this subject.
Binion's World Poker Open starts later this month. Did you go to the last one? How was it? It is the only big tournament, I can get to, from Ohio, so I'm thinking of going.
The New England Poker Classic takes place at about the same time at Foxwoods in SE CT. Buyins from $100-500, 11 events, March 28 - April 7.
The action at the WPO was very good last year from what I hear, and will include more big action than FW I'm sure. So, if you're looking for 25-50 blind PL and multiple games in the 100-200 and up range, go to WPO. If you're looking for 20-40 and such, FW is a good place during tourney time (the rest of the year the games are pretty tight, IMO).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
No, we have not named a week in honor of esteemed 2+2 poster Jim Brier. He has merely borrowed his last name from the greatest sports and entertainment week in Canada: the Canadian Men's Curling Championship a.k.a. The Brier.
I suspect I will have lost the 'Merican audience by this point, but skp, Dave Ottosen, OhKanada, and the rest of the Canucks are no doubt reading with rapt attention.
For the great unwashed around the world, what sporting event do YOU have to match a 10-day extravaganza that fills NHL sized arenas nightly, has 10 hours a day of live national TV coverage, and a TV audience for the finals that is higher than the Super Bowl, Grey Cup, or for that matter, most of the Stanley Cup playoff games. I suppose I will hear from someone extolling the virtues of the Westminster Dog Show or something like the World Cup, but this is Canadiana, boys.
The obvious chalk picks are Middaugh and Burtnyk, of course, but being a tried and true Alberta boy, I'm all over Dave Nedohin, Randy Ferbey and the Alberta crew. Ferbey won 3 times with Pat Ryan, so he will be able to calm the rink down early in the week, and their Tour experience should get them into the playoffs. Once there, it's a shootout.
Pull up the La-Z-Boy and crack out the suds. Brier week is here!
nt
x
Huh?...ya, the Brier...say, why is it that the world's most exciting and boring games are both played on ice?...lol...I have tried to be a curling fan but just can't get there probably because I don't have the foggiest as to the strategic aspects of the game or sport or whatever you want to call it.
BTW, just what the hell are they constantly yelling about:o)
the yank conterpart that would watch your curling(brooming a bucket across the ice) watches the morning cooking shows:-).
My bookie in Texas, the ninnie, just gave me a blank stare.
Dunc,
You might be interested to know that we almost had a regular PP player and 2+2 lurker in the brier. He lost in the final for his province.
I will let you guess who it is.
Skp might know.
Adam.
ffff
"For the great unwashed around the world, what sporting event do YOU have to match a 10-day extravaganza that fills NHL sized arenas nightly, has 10 hours a day of live national TV coverage, and a TV audience for the finals that is higher than the Super Bowl, Grey Cup, or for that matter, most of the Stanley Cup playoff games."
Mardi Gras!
Vince
I'm too exhausted over the women's final to watch the brier just yet. After watching the surprisingly sexy Kelly Law continually yelling "harder" while Colleen Jones is holding that big broom.... I need a week off.
Eh...curling isn't my #1 sport to watch, but I watch it out of obligation (kind of like eating perogies in Edmonton or playing poker in Vegas; you might or might not enjoy it but you have to do it to fit in).
I always root for Alberta...whoever it is?!
I met up with Lady Luck this afternoon in the 15-30 hold'em game. At first she was a little upset with me, over my last post. My chips were flying into the center of the table but they had no return ticket. She told me, no one holds her attention forever! I said I was sorry and she got me even, then up, then out the door with many stacks.
As I was driving home something she said came back to me. "I like to hang out with tight and aggressive players." So I thought about it and it hit me like a ton of bricks. Get in shape, and bring a whip! Well I'm off to the health club, anybody know where I can buy a whip. I hope I see her again to night at the game. Yes, today is a double header.
SPM,...another winning week, stay tune for the approaching Statistical Cleansing...
SPM,
Looks like you continued your winning ways again tonight - somewhat at my expense I might add. By the way, I find it challenging to understand how you are the Mayor of Any Two Card Town playing only 1 hand every 74 minutes. Or was tonight simply a night off for the Mayor???
Please help us poor (really poor) dumb folk understand. Also, why do you keep following me around and playing in the same games I do?!?!?!?!?
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
:-)
Friday night SPM was the only representitive of any2CT in our tough game.He set a poor example for this berg.He is in emminent danger of being impeached.He is definately vying for a leadership role in the VOP as he only played any 2 cards ,if the were BIG and only if they were SUITED. Whats up with that.
:- )
KJS, how come you didn't followed up your stand in this issue? Don't you think that remarks made by some players deserve an answer?
His post did not merit an answer - I too am an atheist but I don't care what banners show up on any site god inspired or not. If KJS was a real atheist he would just ignore the Jesus ad as atheists don't beleive there is a god anyway.
I say let 2+2 plaster any ads up they want without comment from us.
Rounder,
I fail to see a connection between ones belief in god and their stance on advertising. We may agree on one, but don't on the other. I did not know there was a proper way for "real atheists" to respond to advertising. I guess I will have to turn my atheism card in to the proper authorities :)
KJS
Maybe buy a big fancy building elect a leader and meet once a week say on sundays to listen to our leader tell us how atheists should act and treat one another.
Nah let's not and say we did.
:-)
XXX,
I feel that I reinterated my point numerous time to numerous posters. I figured that I made myself clear and thus could let the discussion die a natural death. These things have to end at some point, and it seemed that the discussion was between a small minority of people and was beginning to digress into name calling and whatnot. If people want to discuss it more, they are free to email me.
KJS
You guys are way ahead of me.
KJS, you may hear from me in the future.
Good luck to both of you.
When you remove a post, for whatever reason, are exercising censorship? Are suppressing freedom of speach?
Should read: Are you exercising censorship? Are you suppressing fredom of speach?
It's their BB - freedom of speech does not apply to private areas like this bb - Of course that is just my opinion.
You are not allowed to stand in a crowded movie theatre and yell "Fire." That's basically all we try to do. We have posting guidelines that are very reasonable, and we try to only delete a minimum of posts. We do this to keep these boards vibrant, and it has worked very well. I think that you will agree that quality of information that gets exchanged on Two Plus Two is extremely high, all points of view are represented, and if you are serious about poker/gambling, it is well worth your time to come here.
As an avid reader (but infrequent poster) I appreciate the fact that they've edited out personal flame-wars and other crap that would waste my time. (I assume that's what they're deleting, because I read plenty of stuff that challenges Mason or David and that stuff seems to be replied to and discussed. If that were summarily removed, it would indeed be something to worry about, but that doesn't seem to be the case.) I say: keep up the good work.
Dear Mason,
Bravo. I echo your sentiments vociferously. Not only is there an abundant of differing opinions offered here, but we get the privilege of having the best minds in poker address our questions personally. I still am pinching myself that it's free :)).. and I thank you and all the insightful minds that are so generous with their time and talent in responding to us all. Keep up the good work..and again, thank you.
:-)
i am making sure i fill in my poker and gambling library by including all 2+2 works..although i only have 2 or 3 to go,...this is a great bargain,thanks...
I like the 2+2 policy of deleting posts that are offensive and have no meaningful poker content. Just as I would not want to live in a society that has no laws, I don't want to participate in a forum that has no rules or processes that civilized human beings agree to follow.
If you read the Terms & Conditions listed on the left, you will see what you are agreeing to when you use this forum. It appears to me that the only posts that get removed are personal attacks. On the other hand, disagreement stays on if it is appropriately expressed.
Personally, I am grateful for this forum. It has enhanced my poker experience and improved my play. I am so glad it has not degenerated into an arena for abusiveness and obscenity.
Keep up the outstanding work Chuck, David, Mason, Ray and all others who keep this forum working.
Each web site must be a country of it's own. Some are free sites others are not. All are run by the Dictators who create them. So I guess this web site is not a free speach country.
SPM,...deal with it...
just like religious groups who migrate to escape discrimination...first thing they do is set up a system that is biased for them...nothing like a little home cooking...jmho...gl all..
Cesspool! Yes that's right I said cesspoll! I was over on "Google" lst night viewing the rgp forum. Google is getting better. You can read but you still can't post. They say that's coming. Anyway, back to cesspool.
"Cesspool: an underground reservoir for liquid waste." Just so we know what were taliking about here I've looked up cesspool in websters and this is the result. Like I was saying I was over on rgp. I noticed a post by Steve Badger that had 2 + 2 in the title. I opened it and read Badger's usual whining remarks. He is complaining about SmoothB writing falsities about him. In the body of his whine he refers to 2 + 2 as a cesspool. I was going to reply with something like :"Yes we at 2 + 2 have had our problems with disparging posters. Fortuantely we are weeding them out. For example we no longer have the insecure whining Steve Badger posting on 2 + 2. Thank god for small favors" But google doesn't allow me to make a reply.
What is interesting is that he admits that he hasn't played Holdem since Tday last year and he was raked over the coals when he played. I wonder if he is a winning ring game player at all. If not, well, so much for his advice.
Anyway I do take exception with him calling 2 + 2 a cesspool and the use of the word scumbag towards posters here. But I beleive he shows his true insecure self by attacking with vulgaries and inuendos those that would expose his inferiority in his self proclaimed poker expertise.
He is the true cesspool dweller and must be attempting to deflect the knowledge of his roots towards others. Perhaps he needs understanding and forgiveness. So I say:"It's o.k Steve. It's not your fault. I forgive you"
vince
I have not read Badger's posts over on rgp since I don't like rgp and cannot post anything over there now that "google" has taken over deja.
Badger has his own inimitable style but the thrust of his criticisms regarding SmoothB's post was valid in my opinion. We can all have disagreements over how to play this complex game and learn from each other in the process. But personal attacks on a fellow poker player have no place on this forum.
When Badger was posting here, I found many of his posts to be interesting and informative although I did not agree with some of his analysis. The fact that he ran bad in Hold'em and has not played in awhile does not mean that he is not an excellent player nor does it mean that he is not worth listening to.
Use this site:
http://www.mailgate.org/rec/rec.gambling.poker/index.html
"The fact that he ran bad in Hold'em and has not played in awhile does not mean that he is not an excellent player nor does it mean that he is not worth listening to."
To a point. But after you run bad for let's say six months or 1000 hours of playing, much less against weak players, you have to discount this player's expertise.
Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I could care less about Badger's poker advice. However, there are those that respect this whining clown. He was razzed by some guy on this forum and he continues to denigrate everyone that posts here. The problem with that is that he is a poker author and listened to by lot's of folk in the poker community. If he wants to attack SmoothB, someone whose posts I never open, that's fine. But what right does he have to include the rest of us in his silly ego saving attacks. He's a piece of work that I don't need in my life. As a regular poster on 2 + 2 I feel I have theright to criticize him for his remarks.
"The fact that he ran bad in Hold'em and has not played in awhile does not mean that he is not an excellent player nor does it mean that he is not worth listening to."
The only evidence we have to his live game expertise is his own admittance that he got destroyed last Tday. Besides that his claim to fame that can be verified is in the world of Tournaments. For all we know he never plays above 3-6 and may never have ahad a significant winning period. If you want to follow his advice then have at it.
vince
Nokia's cup is physically and visually such a disappointment compared to the BIG BRASS KAHUNA Cup Labatt provided.
Middaugh easily the odds on favorite, he and his rink have demonstrated over the past few years in playdowns, skins and cashspiels that they are the dominant force.
Burtnyk's rink is a close second, any team that makes it out of Manitoba is always a good bet.
Guy (Dat was de worst shot I never threw) Hemmings. Lets hope he does well. Why? The better he does the more TV exposure he gets, his personality, likability and overall presence makes him the BEST sports personality. BAR NONE.
Russ Howard announcing? Russ, how could you not make it out of New Brunswick? Russ's biggest challenge for this brier will be to show restraint by not telling Vic Router to shut his hole everytime he says something stupid.
AL, the iceman, Hackner, welcome back, lots of things have changed since the you were at the show last.
Randy Ferbey, huh Randy who? What did you do poison Kevin Martin?
Yukon/NWT. Even with the help of the great ice sheets of the newly formed Nunivit you guys don't stand a chance.
Doesn't matter who wins, we will still kick Scotland's ass at the worlds.
One more thing:
It's always a disappointment when TSN drops out for the playoffs and CBC with Don and Don take over. PURE CRAP!!!!!!!!!
Jodder,
It would be a very quiet telecast if Router was not allowed to say anything stupid. The man is the worst sports anouncer of all time, and it's not even close.
Adam.
AT least Duguid is now toast. If you watched the Scott finals last week, you will note that Duguid has been replaced with a combo of Mike Harris and Joan McCusker. Much better IMO. But you're right about Don Whitman.
Ferbey was no upset getting out of Alberta. They lost a heartbreaker two years ago to Ken Hunka and have been consistent top money winners on the Tour the past few years. 3-0 start, although I think they were well on their way to losing this morning.
Saskabush beat them this morning, but they were tied 2-2 with Middaugh after 3 ends this afternoon (so I watched a bit at lunch..).
As long as Middaugh doesn't win, Im happy.
eh..
Don't mock us, scalf!
You must find something interesting, or you wouldn't be bothered reading, UN-HUH?
Mr. Chairman, you raised the question in one of your posts as to why players follow you from game to game. I would like to respond to that question as well as ask the twoplustwo universe for help and suggestions on how I might change my approach in attempting to steal your big blind on a regular basis as I have done so successfully against "just another egg's" big blind. Which by the way I plan to continue to do. Sorry, "just another egg", but it just feels so good to get your big blind. Now, if I could only figure out a way to get the Chairman's big blind.
Every time I play in the game with you Mr. Chairman, it is an education as well as a pleasure for me. What I lose to you is a small price to pay for the entertainment you provide me and all the other players at the table because you are a gentleman, a scholar and a true professional of the game. To witness your brillant play and manuverablity in the game is a dream all players like myself hope to someday achieve. It makes people like the Professor, Sklanski,Malmouth and Yamamotto famous because you are the type of player they write about and live off of by your achievements in the game of poker.
My compliments to you Mr. Chairman and please don't be surprised if you continue to see players fighting with each other to get in the same game you are in. I find it an honor to play with the one, if not the only, local poker great we have in the State of Illinois. Sorry Professor, it had to be said.
Saying all that I have, I STILL WANT YOUR BIG BLIND Mr. Chairman. So twoplustwo audience help me find a way to accomplish this goal by offering what ever suggestions that you can. Feel free to go after the Chairman's big blind on your own, you may find it as rewarding and challenging I have.
My experience as of late with the Chairman has been very disappointing. He has been letting players walk all over him. Friday, I saw Slick Bobby G, rape and pilage the Chairman's chips. He finlly went home with his tail between his legs.
It broke my heart to see this, as the Chairman has always been one of my idols. Maybe he has been spending too much time in Vegas with all the easy games they have. Holloywood Casino in Aurora, IL has a large school of fish that love to eat sharks.
But back to your question. Try calling him on his cell phone just before the last card is dealt. When he answers make sure the dealer mucks his hand. Maybe this will work for a few rounds. I don't have his cell number, but I'm sure you can get it.
SPM,...hero's come and go...
there will always be a SPM...gl
:-(
you can check out, but...you can never leave...go you mighty SPM...GO..
Marauder
I was very disappointed that you now have placed the Chairman above me no matter how much the truth hurts. I think you should stop trying to steal the Chairmans blind or you will wind up like all the rest of us with no money. No-one has succeeded in outplaying the Chairman so most have given up or are now playing$2.50-5.00 holdem. I would redirect my blind stealing to players who are unable to play but please don't include me since i can't play.Why not save money by not attacking his blind and then use the money to take him out to lunch. Thats what i did and am now losing my money at a much slower rate to him.I found that to be quite profitable. Good luck Marauder. Lar
Big Al, a hold'em player from Holloywood Casino sent me these internet jocks to me. Al says these are pretty funny........worth reading! Hope you injoy them. SPM
And what is your most embarrassing moment?........
I walked into a hair salon with my husband and three kids in tow and asked loudly, "How much do you charge for a shampoo and a blow job?" - Melinda Lowe, 39, Seguin, TX
Pad, please! An insurance man visited me at home to talk about our mortgage insurance. He was throwing a lot of facts and figures at me, and I wanted to follow as best I could, so I told my 6-year-old son to run and get me a pad. He came back and handed me a Kotex right in front of our guest. - Kathy Newman,46,Winston-Salem, NC
Ho, Ho, Ho I was taking a shower when my 2-year-old son came into the bathroom and wrapped himself in toilet paper. Although he made a mess, he looked adorable, so I ran for my camera and took a few shots. They came out so well t hat I had copies made and included one with each of our Christmas cards. Days later, a relative called about the picture, laughing hysterically, and suggesting I take a closer look. Puzzled, I stared at the photo and was shocked to discover that in addition to my son, I had captured my reflection in the mirror - wearing nothing but a camera! Name Withheld
Lady Golfer I was at the golf store comparing different kinds of golf balls. I was unhappy with the women's type I had been using. After browsing for several minutes, I was approached by one of the good-looking gentlemen who works at the store. He asked if he could help me. Without thinking, I looked at him and said, "I think I like playing with men's balls." - Colleen Collins,31, Ferndale, MI
Nuts about You.. My sister and I were at the mall and passed by a store that sold a variety of nuts. As we were looking at the display case, the boy behind the counter asked if we needed any help. I replied, "No, I'm just looking at your nuts." My sister started to laugh hysterically, the boy grinned, and I turned beet-red and walked away. To this day, my sister has never let me forget. Faye Emerick,34, Ellerslie, MD
Na-na na-na na-nah! While in line at the bank one afternoon, my toddler decided to release some pent-up energy and ran amok. I was finally able to grab hold of her after receiving looks of disgust and annoyance from other patrons. I told her that if she did not start behaving "right now" she would be punished.To my horror, she looked me in the eye and said in a voice just as threatening,If you don't let me go right now, I will tell Grandma that I saw you kissing Daddy's pee-pee last night!" The silence was deafening after this enlightening xchange. Even the tellers stopped what they were doing.I mustered up the last of my dignity and walked out of the bank with my daughter in tow. The last thing I heard when the door closed behind me were screams of laughter. Amy Richardson;Stafford, Virginia
Surprise! It was the day before my eighteenth birthday. I was living at home, but my parents had gone out for the evening, so I invited my girlfriend over for a romantic night alone. As we lay in bed after making love, we heard the telephone ring downstairs. I suggested to my girlfriend that I give her a nude piggyback ride to the phone. Since we didn't want to miss the call, we didn't have time to get dressed. When we got to the bottom of the stairs, the lights suddenly came on and a whole crowd of people yelled, "SURPRISE!" My entire family: aunts, uncles, Grandparents, cousins and all my friends were standing there. My girlfriend and I were frozen in a state of shock and embarrassment for what seemed like an eternity. Since then, no one in my family has planned a surprise party again. Tim Cahill, Poughkeepsie, New York
Priceless One of the funniest "most-embarrassing-moment" stories I've come upon in a long time was about a lady who picked up several items at a discount store. When she finally got up to the checker, she learned that one of her items had no price tag. Imagine her embarrassment when the checker got on the intercom and boomed out for all the store to hear, "PRICE CHECK ON LANE THIRTEEN, TAMPAX, SUPER SIZE." That was bad enough, but somebody at the rear of the store apparently misunderstood the word "Tampax" for THUMBTACKS." In a business-like tone, a voice boomed back over the intercom. "DO YOU WANT THE KIND YOU PUSH IN WITH YOUR THUMB OR THE KIND YOU POUND IN WITH A HAMMER?"
Mom's Advice A teacher noticed that a little boy at the back of the class was quirming around, scratching his crotch and not paying attention. She went back to find out what was going on. He was quite embarrassed and whispered that he had just recently been circumcised and he was quite itchy. The teacher told him to go down to the principal's office. He was to phone his mother and ask her what he should do about it. He did it and returned to his class. Suddenly, there was a commotion at the back of the oom. She went back to investigate only to find him sitting at his desk with his penis hanging out. "I thought I told you to call your mom." she screamed. "I did," he said, "And she told me that if I could stick it out till noon, she'd come and pick me up from school." Chris Vaught
classic. Absolutely classic.
What are Ray Zee credentials? Ray Zee is an unknown name to me.
From what I understand, he has won more money playing poker then just about anyone in the history of the game.
He also is a world class player in many games, not just one.
He also is the author of the greatest book ever written on hi/lo poker. The co-author of the greatest book ever written on 7-stud.
Best of all is the fact that this world class player of many games, is kind enough to post some of his insights on this forum.
Good Luck
Howard
mmf, as an opponent, nice guy otherwise....jmho
The new 4 billion aircraft carrier right name should have been **Jimmy Carter** A great President, a Navy man and a good poker player.
There is already a USS Jimmy Carter!!!!!
USS Ronald Reagan caps are available on newsmax.com.
Why did it take so long to honor the man who won the cold war?
what we need are 2 + 2 caps(with a lot of spaghetti)..
n/t
CNN reported that the Ronald Reagan Aircraft carrier is the first carrier named after a living president. Are you sure 1: That there is an aircraft carrier named after Jimmy Carter or 2: Jimmy Carter is aliv. ?? I think they just prop pillows behind his back and make it look like he's napping.
Carter is a lot of things including a great EX-president but no one has ever accused him of being a "great president"
I never heard before that a ship was named after our great president Jimmy Carter, I took the information as true, like I didn't know that in reference to an ex presidente, I would have to state every time I named him, that he is not in office at the present time. I believe everything. I am learning from every one, every day.
I was distinguishing between Carter the below average president and above average EX-President.
Can you grasp that concept.
nt
Jimmy Carter was acused of everything during the four years he was president, by the same people that acused Bill Clinton today. Why? Because they are only happy when a republican to the "right" is in charge. Well, they got "W" for four years now, but no longer.
Boy you have a bad memory re carter - and don't be so quick to underestimate "W" - he is a good guy and will do a great job. I think it will be a long time before the democRATS have any power in D.C. - they will be feling the effects of the corrupt president for a long long time.
GOP will have the house and White house for a long time unless the democrats get smart and fast.
Corrupt is a very strong word for president Bill Clinton, but I don't expect different from any republican. Always using extreme words attacking the man, and staying away from the issues. Democrats have all the right causes. You are against abortion, right? Have no fear, W will change the Supreme Court to your approval.
Corruption is usually a word reserved for criminals like clinton. He has been lying to us for many years on a regular basis and you lemmings still follow the jackoff - too bad.
BTW I am an atheist but would like to see less abortions after the 1st trimester.
Hi everyone or anyone,
I need some help. I have been trying to post a response to Steve Badger on rgp but have not been able to do so. Could one of you that know how, please post the following under Badgers thread titled 2 + 2 Cesspool backs up again.
Steve Badger posted the following: “He (Vince Lepore) then concocts any even stupider fantasy about me getting "raked over the coals" in some mythical Holde'm ring game on Thanksgiving.
Badger is correct I made that statement. But I made it because of the following excerpt from a prior Badger posting on rgp. In it he says and I quote: “I haven't played Holdem since Thanksgiving day at the Bike,” in the same paragraph he states: “Ken Goldstein, Kevin Song, Daniel Negreanu (who busted me)”. I may have misunderstood but from the way he words the action in this paragraph it appears that these three busted him on Thanksgiving day. Those are his words not mine. Yet he calls me all kind of names for in effect repeating what he says.
This is typical of the whiney boy we know as Steve Badger. He must denigrate anyone that criticizes him. He refers to an attack by SmoothB, a poster on 2 + 2 that I refuse to read, as representative of all 2 + 2 posters. He calls me "scumbag and other niceties." Mason Malmuth is his normal target for these types of remarks. Of course it is obvious that with Mason, Badger’s reason is one motivated by jealousy. With me it is less understandable since I am a low life scumbag in his opinion. Why does he bother? He also states in his post:” For months I tried to be nice to Vince, even spoke to him at length at the last TOC,." Our encounter at the TOC was comprised of me introducing myself and him politely saying hi and then bye. He was in a tournament and din't want to be bothered. I guess that’s his idea of talking at length.
I am replying to his silly post just to set the record straight. I wouldn’t bother answering this guy except that some people in the poker community make the mistake of listening to him and accepting what he says as gospel. Evidence: “That said despite the fact that I totally believe Badger and find it despicable that Vince or anyone else would stoop to degrading him through lies, especially dumb ones that can easily be refuted by Badger's whereabouts. “ This last quote came from none other than LEE MUNZER in his reply to his comrade Steve Badger. I guess “birds of a feather” is a truism.
Badger is a despicable individual. He has a deep hatred for the 2 + 2 hosts and takes every opportunity to ridicule those of us that are loyal to that site. His personal hatred has overcome his ability to be objective. In short, he stinks!
Vince
x
Thank you minister.
vince
"He calls me "scumbag and other niceties ... since I am a low life scumbag in his opinion."
Don't worry Vince, Charmaine thinks you are very nice.
"Don't worry Vince, Charmaine thinks you are very nice"
Nothing else matters!
Vince
Mason:
Don't let this jealous envious malcotent bother you, or look at this way>>>>
1.)You have a successful website here (extremely educational)
2.)You have a profitable book publishing company
3. You are a successful mid-limit player(practicing what you and David preach and teach.
Steve Badger sees all of this and dwells in bitter envy and jealousy===5 to 1 odds says he like to be in both your shoes and David's as of this moment, I really dont think Steve B. has really ever grasped the true fundamentals of hold"em and his results over the last year has left a bitter taste in his mouth. Some people can't except the blame for their failures.
For Mr. A.K.A.:
Thanks for the support. That's very close to the way I see it.
Mason
I bet A.K.A. is not an alais for David Sklansky.
vince
I think you've extrapolated a lot of information from the word _busted_ that I would not have. Example: yesterday, I dropped in on a game for a bit and after being up and down for a bit, lost my $1000 buyin and went home because I didn't care to play anymore. I wouldn't call that busted. The other night I was playing in a tournament and as we wound down, all my money went in from the big blind with a KJ and my opponent had sevens. No K or J came and I was BUSTED out in 15th. See the difference? I'm not saying this is for sure to what he was referring, but when I hear the word _busted_, the first thing I think is tournament not ring game. Also I would have a hard time reconciling a story where someone is playing at the limits that KevinS and DanielN play, but at the same time was getting abused by LL players.
JG
http://www.mailgate.org/rec/rec.gambling.poker/index.html
Remember: Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.
Hey Jim I didn't extrapolate anything. Busted was his term not mine. I may have misunderstood what he was saying but that frequently happens when trying to pin Badger down on any subject. Try it you will see. Also if you think about it he just may have been referring to getting knocked out of a tournmanet by these guys. When I first read his post I thought he was referring to a live game. If he got in a live game with Daniel Negreanu I fully expect it to be a high limit game. There is nothing inconsistent in my remarks. Badger could indeed get raked over the coals at both high and low limits.
That was not the point of my post. The point was that Badger is a big shit who attacks people that disagree with him with lies and inuendos. And some poker people, apparently you included, listen to him.
vince
> And some poker people, apparently you included, listen to him..
Heh.
JG
"Heh"
Well, let's see. You respond to my post with comments regarding the word "busted" and then explain how I must have read something into what Badger said. The purpose of this thread was to expose Badger for the weasel he is. He, Badger, attacked every regular poster on this forum because some clown made a remark about him here. I personally found that offensive.
From your "Heh" I take it you don't understand how I could extrapolate that you listen to Badger in the same way Munzer does. Well, I made that comment because your reply completely ignored the point of my post and made a comment that appeared to be in defense of Badger on a side issue which diverted attention from the main point I was making. I hope that's clear even if it is a little warped.
Vince
I also took offense and I am glad that you stood up for yourself and posted a reply to him. Well done Vince.
Well Gee Mark, thank you! I'm glad I'm not the only one on this forum that find the remarks of Badger, a noted poker authority, offensive.
Again thank you.
vince
The statement that I "listen to him" is sooo far off base I don't know who is laughing harder, me or Badger. It's too bad deja is in transition or possibly dead as we know it, or I could point you to some good rgp threads. But I took issue with one word and you went off the deep end. Even though for some sick reason I can simultaneously get along with Badger and others, your saying that I'm some sort of disciple is ludicrous. I may be civil, but I'm occasionally at the forefront of the wars with him on rgp and it's been that way for several years. Any list of Badger's top-five thorns in his side would definitely include me(probably rounding it out: Jaeger, TomW, Gary & Lord Zuckerman -- MM, DS, et al are pikers compared to us). Which is why I got a good laugh out of your statement I excerpted in my response. Anyway, I guess you don't really follow rgp or have much historical perspective on the internet poker flame wars, so I don't take it personally. And just to bug you, I'll continue to try to be civil to everyone, even you. :) Anyway, there's got to be a better use for the *.* forum than what's Badger saying.
JG
"I'll continue to try to be civil to everyone, even you"
That's big of you especialy considering I am always civl towards you.
Vince
"But I took issue with one word and you went off the deep end. "
Now you atre being silly just like Badger. took issue with a non relevant part of the posting. Who the hell cares what the word "busted" literally means? You diverted the discussion which I found important away from the fact that Badger the stink farm that he is is broadcasting over the net that posters of this forum are terds in a cesspool. That to me is offensive and uncalled for. It would not matter if it came from a recognized looney. But Badger is listened to because he knows a little about poker. Ask Lee Munzer who took Badger at his word when he was blatantly lying. He called me a liar for played Holdem last Tday. I didn't lie I got my information from his post where he says that the last time he played Holdem was on Thanksgiving. Yet since he said I was lying that idiot Lee Munzer called my actions despicable on Badgers word. So excuse me if I got upset at your comment but quite frankly I was "upset already" and if you think I went off the deep end that's your problem.
vince
I was absolutely right about his use of the word BUSTED. Scanning rgp he stated that he was in fact referring to a tournament he played on rgp. So the whole thing you're going off on me about I was right.
JG
You are an idiot! Bust this!
Vince
Vince, FWIW I also felt Badger was out of line making blanket "cesspool" statements about this site, rather than criticizing individuals. And I imagine Jim did too. (I can speak for him, cuz I've reflected on it good 'n plenty, and cuz I can relate to his schoolin'.) I also suspect lots of others did too. I (and undoubtedly Jim and many others) also felt he was out of line to accuse you of lying. Anyone who's followed your posts even a little should have a strong clue that while you could of course mistinterpret something, you would not make up lies about someone just to get at them in some internet disagreement. Badger was clearly furious about the SmoothB post and what followed (justifiably so if SmoothB's story was fabricated), and counter-attacked in his characteristic style. By jumping in when you did, I think you stirred and then got caught in his continuing wave of anger, and were name-called and accused beyond what might have been the case from a calmer Badger. Well, something like that. Mebee I need to study on it... err... reflect on it a mite more.
I just want to point out that even though I did leave the first SmoothB thread up since by the time I saw it there were already 20 responses, I did delete two other threads. One was by SmoothB and one was by someone else. Badger very strongly objected to both of these (additional) threads which most of you probably never saw. (It seems like he is lurching on our site a lot, but that's fine with us.) So I take issue with his claim that we are not acting in a responsible manner. I also deleted several counter attack posts by Badger as well as two or three others.
Badger is obviously very sensitive to anything that anyone says about him, and I don't see much benefit for our site when someone responds to him in a critical manner even if they feel thay have a right to do so because of his (Badger) posts. Again, it is our purpose to have good poker/gambling discussions where top quality information is exchanged plus a little fun, and it doesn't do anyone of us any good to get bogged down in these type of exchanges.
I should know since in the poker/Internet world I'm sure that I have been attacked more than anyone. But these attacks have never tarnished my reputation nor have they they diminished the success of this site. I believe that the reason is simply that high quality information speaks for itself.
So let us all keep that in mind when we view this negative stuff. Eventually Badger should cool down and look back at the nagative posts that he is currently objecting to so strongly and realize that they like many other things we aren't too happy about will pass, and that life goes on, and that there are positive contributions to make.
Also Mason what alot of posters here dont realize is that not only is this site educational and entertaining but its sole purposes is to increase the mid-limit tables and action (full tables) as John Feeny mentioned in his book (Inside the Poker Mind) whereas minimum wage hold'em has really no profit long term and the high limits not to many people have the bankroll. Middle limit Holdem is truly on the rise.
I'll take your comments one step further. It's fairly easy to win at minimum wage. All you need to do is learn to play very tight and then sit in a low limit game, especially one with a small ante structure, against people who don't have a clue. There are a lot of games like that.
But if you want to win at $30 per hour, which is what I consider minimum expert level, you will have your work cut out for you. That's what these forums are about.
Oh, stop it, F. Kissing up to Vince won't do any good. It's only a matter of time before he finds a reason to tear into you.
;o)
You know, that's a fascinating point, Brett. (though I'm sure Vince is much too much of a gentleman to *really attack me) And may I say how interesting and insightful I find *all of your intelligent, well thought out, and very informative posts? You know, I just don't think we often get the chance to express our heartfelt appreciation for those posters who go out of their way to three bet me on the fl...err... to educate, inform, and yes, even entertain here in poker-cyberspace. Thanks Brett. Love ya, man. (Oh, and may see you Wednesday unless you've moved on to God knows where in this apparent "Then Came Bronson" lifestyle of yours.)
That loud clicking sound you hear is the mass exodus of all the under 40 readers of this forum who have no idea what you are talking about. At any rate, you are too late to take any more money from me directly, since I have moved on (IGHN). Indirectly, all you have to do is win some of it from Moosie (sp?).
Since when do I need a reason?
vince
Vince,
Welcome to the "Badger Discard Club". Stick to picking on Zee he's more fun anyway!!!
ukw
IHOWE?
,,,
Is His Own Worst Enemy or whatever you think fits better.
coma, according to wyatt earp movie on tnt this afternoon, is where wyatt's ashes were placed...lucky chances...bullet never hit earp'''
Vince,
I notice from your postings that you have a serious dislike for me. Why is that? I've always thought that you were a really cool guy. Can we make amends?
Rememer the poem I wrote in your honor? It was called 'Ode to Vince Lepore'. You told me that you liked it.
Let's bury the hatchet, shall we?
-SmoothB-
SmoothB, you got it all wrong. It's not that Vince doesn't like you, NOBODY likes you.
You are a whiney, condescending, know-it-all that tries to come off as a poker expert, while anyone who knows anything about the game sees right off from the content of your posts that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Then when someone with some actual knowledge and experience corrects your misinformation, you go into flame mode.
SmoothB just so you know, you are a joke and just about everyone reads your posts sees it.
I do not read SmmothB for one reason and one reason only. It has nothing to do with his poker expertise or lack of it. I recall an interchange he had with another poster in which he made rather vulgar remarks towards that posters family members. I don't appreciate that kind of thing. I requested that he appologize to the other poster and the forum for his remarks or count me out of as a reader of his posts. He never bothered to apologize. I still stand by that decision even though his recent haranguing of Badger did my heart good I will not be a part of things I find truly inappropriate. Calling someone elses family vulgar names is one of them.
vince
Charmaine and I and a couple of friends went to see The Mexican. We all thought it was awful. It was like a low class "Pilp Fiction" if you can imagine such a thing.
My visiting brother and I ducked out of the rain to see "Snatch" today. Does anyone have any idea what this movie was supposed to be about? Is "Lock, Stock and Smoking Barrel" or whatever it's called (done by the same people) any better? I've heard several good reviews of the latter movie at the tables.
Regards,
Rick
When I was a kid we use to use "Snatch" to describe a ..., Hmmm that's not nice!
vince
Rick
I liked SNATCH, but I loved L,S,& 2 S.B.
I thought THE MEXICAN was okay. Not good,just okay. 3000 MILES TO GRACELAND was a little better, but not by much.
Good Luck
Howard
Why has De Niro been making so many bad movies lately? Analyze This, Meet the Parents, Men of Honor. Are there more? I used to really look forward to a De Niro movie, but not anymore.
Also, I thought LS&TSB was OK, but not anywhere near as good as Pulp Fiction, to which it is frequently compared. I saw it on cable, so you should be able to catch it if you watch the listings.
Didn't see the honor one, but my wife and I laughed are asses off at Analyze This & Meet The Parents. Maybe when you only get out on a date once or twice a month like us, you're more prone to being entertained. We even like Down to Earth.. Anyway I better stop here, before everyone loses all respect for my (admittedly dwindling) intelligence..
JG
"Flawless", co-starring the great Phillip Seymour Hoffman. "A Boy's Life" & "A Bronx Tale" were also good(albeit released a few years ago), but De Niro really has been coasting since "Goodfellas".
And you forgot about "Rocky & Bullwinkle".
And "Heat"(ya-aawn).
xxx
Mason,
Rocky and Bullwinkle was one of my favorite cartoons when I was young. It left the theatres so quickly that I didn't see it but it is on my "to rent" list. Anyway, you are not crazy for enjoying it. Roger Ebert gave it three stars. Here is a link to his review:
"Link to Review by Roger Ebert"
Regards,
Rick
Ebert gave the same rating to the Mexican, so where does that leave Mason (or the rest of us)?
I thought both SNatch and Mexican were worth seeing.
I am not a big fan of Roberts of Pitt but after the 1st 20 miserable mins. I thought it came together rather well.
Did you get/read the book "Joe"?
And yes, LS&TSB and S are both writ/dir by the same guy(Mr. Madonna) and have basically the same casts and plots. If you didn't like one you prolly won't like the other.
Bill,
After reading your recommendation and the reviews on Amazon, it was near the top of my wish list. But the way we work it is that we set a budget and then get stuff for each other that is a subset of what is on our lists. We also throw in a gift or two not on the list. This keeps us from overspending and we still have some element of surprise. I was disappointed when Joe didn't make it; however, the whole thread is copied into a document and I will put it on my wish list for next year or perhaps for my birthday list.
Since the Holidays I've read the two World War II books by Steven Ambrose (“D-Day” and “Citizen Soldiers”) and old copy of "War and Remembrance" by Herman Wouk. I also recently read "The Hunters" by James Salter (about flying against MIGs in the Korean War). It might sound like I'm obsessed by war but my father is getting on and I want to get an appreciation for what he and his generation went through in those years. Somehow I don't think the baby boomer generation scared to death of second hand smoke could have handled mid-winter foxhole duty on the stalled front lines near the German border in the winter of 1945 or Kamikaze attacks and hill by hill fighting in Okinawa.
Regards,
Rick
:-)
:)
That doesn't surprise me. I thought the three minute trailer for the Mexican was interminable. Don't waste your time with these inane pieces of trash. If you wanna see a real movie, see "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon". Easily the movie of the year and visually, the most impressive movie I've ever seen.
I also liked it - and recommended it to friends.
I thought CROUCHING TIGER was fantastic also. One of the top ten films of the past five years. IMHO
Howard
If you liked "Crouching Tiger..." and want to see an Asian film on a more modern subject, go see "In the Mood for Love" by Wong Kar-Wai. Might be the most beautifully photographed film I have ever seen. Yes, its subtitled, and yes, its about romance. If you usually pass over films like this, you might want to make an exception. This one is a great story set in Hong Kong (and elsewhere in Asia) in the 1960s that features great acting, great writing and awesome cinematography. Best film of 2001, IMO (2000 too for that matter).
KJS
My Girlfriend and I like to hit a movie every weekend. Unfortunately, Hollywood just doesn't make a good movie every week. So, after sitting through the HORRIBLE 3000 Miles to Graceland last weekend, I actually liked the Mexican. It was a bit slow, but there were a few real side-splitters.
"Just one more word, and I'm crashing this car."
Good Movies out:
Crouching Tiger **** O brother Where Art Thou ***1/2 Chocolat *** Traffic ***
Zooey
At 1100 hours the docked River Boat in Aurora, IL was jumping with action! Heck you can board at any time! They were making points at the craps tables, the 21 dealers were paying 1 ½ on all the black jacks, and someone hit a number at the roulette wheel. The waiting list to get into a poker game was 14 deep but who's counting. Time for brunch at the Epic Buffet, served the institutionalized way. I like my food prepared that way or I like free food, I leave you to judge.
After brunch, time to take a nap, in the smoking room, while waiting for a seat. Enter the Artful Dodger, no sleep allowed. We make small talk, he asks the SPM to post a question on another 2+2 channel. Neighbor Bill from the neighborhood, comes in the smoking room to offer the SPM a play over spot in the main 10-20 game. Losing one and a half stacks in a matter of several minutes. The SPM is saved by an open seat in the 2.50-5.00 hold'em game. The SPM makes several trips to move all his stuff to the new game. As the SPM begins to take his seat, the Floor Boss waves him off like the flag man on an air craft carrier. You have a seat in the 5-10 game, table something. The same routine after the last trip the SMP begins to sit... nope their moving him into the third 10-20 feeder game. Home at last!
You've heard the saying, be carful what you wish for. Well it sure applied to the two 10-20 feeder games. They were chewing up the SPM like he was a bone in a hungry dog's cage. After four hours the SPM was closing in on the last chip he owned. He had already said good bye to five stacks, plus a few. It was a bleak Sunday afternoon in a crowded poker room with no smoking allowed. The SPM was playing his "A" game, you know the one he plays when he's in the Valley of Patience (VoP). Tight & Aggressive!
What you don't know is the Artful Dodger made the SPM agree to a two week promise. The SPM agreed to live by the "Oath of the Walk." The oath says, play any hand out of position or rags with reckless abandon you must walk immediately after the hand ends. No waiting for your blinds you must walk, win or lose the hand, you still walk. The SPM did not want to walk. He was Tight & Aggressive with a short stack, after being slowly beaten senseless in the VoP.
Then the SPM felt a warm breath on the back of his neck, he was in the big blind with 10 9 off. He didn't even look to see the lips behind the warm breath, he knew it was Lady Luck. She whispered. "I like Tight & Aggressive men!" Seven way action and no one raises. The flop came 10 10 with who cares, the turn was a 10 and the SPM began a slow rush that took five hours. The SPM was playing so tight, you couldn't get a greased bee up his tookus. In the final analysis being patient, paid off. The SPM walked with a very small win but it felt like a big win.
SPM,...so Lady Luck likes her men Tight & Aggressive, isn't that interesting...
i stii say lady luck ain't no lady...great post again as usual...gl
Married man...written by ???
A married man left work early one Friday afternoon. Instead of going home, however, he squandered the weekend (and his paycheck) partying with the boys.
When he finally returned home on Sunday night, he ran into his furious wife. After a couple of hours of nagging and berating, his wife asked, "How would you like it if you didn't see me for a couple of days?"
"That would suit me just fine", he replied.
So, Monday went by, and the man didn't see his wife. Tuesday and Wednesday came and went with the same result. Come Thursday, the swelling went down a bit and he could see her a little, just out of the corner of his left eye...
well i am married and do not see the humour...too true..hehe..
seeing it seems to be joke week; here's a favourite of mine recently.
- A woman walks into a bar and asks the barman for a double entendre.
So he gives her one.
A guy decides to take up diving. Buys the best equipment, goes to all the classes, watches videos, practices a ton and now its time for is 1st dive on the coral reef. Goes down about 40 ft and is filming the beautifully colored coral, when all of a sudden a guy with no equipment goes up and taps him on the arm. Figuring it was just some showoff, or drunk from a cruise ship, the guy goes down to about 100 feet and starts clicking away again, when he gets another tap on his arm from the same guy. Looking at his depthometer our hero is duly impressed by the guy with no oxygen tank or equipment, so he takes out his underwater chalk board and writes: "How can you stay underwater without equipment for so long?" The guy without equipment wipes out his question and writes on his board: "I'm drowning you f**king moron!!!"
I just finished visiting rgp and lo and behold we have a reply to my post concerning Badger. It was from David Sklansky. I will only say that the post by David goes a long way in holding Badger up as a model poker expert. Words like onerous describe my comments while David uses meticulous to describe his feeling for the martyr Badger. I guees that David agrees with Badger. This forum is a Cesspool and posters like me are the terds that inhabit it! Way to go David!
Thanks for your honesty,
vince
Hey David, would you like to know how to improve this forum? Well just run right up to rgp and read Mr Meticulous's reply to your post. He has all the answers for you. Maybe you can get Chuck Weinstock to hire Badger as Forum consultant. I'm sure Mason doesn't mind the little "inaccuracies" that Badger makes about him or the forum. By the way which is the inaccurate description of Mason that Badger usse? Is the evil inacurate or the dirt bag or maybe slime ball. Just how inacurrate is he? Is Mason not eveil but just a bad person? Is he not a slime ball just a little greasy? Or is he only a half full dirt bag? And is this forum not a Cesspool just a sewr? I hope you can straighten that out for me.
vince
I think you're on tilt a bit. That happens to me sometimes; no biggie. I made a mistake the other night about standard deviations while I was stuck a couple dimes on Paradise.
If anything I have said has upset you too much, I am sorry. I only wanted to convey two points: 1) The word BUSTED almost always means tournaments, not ring games. In addition to experience, the other hint I leaked was the limits. Kevin Song and Daniel N play very high LHE in ring-games. I have never seen Badger play this high, though if he was I would imagine it would be a different particular game than LHE, but I can't be sure. The best guess would be tournament. And it turns out that this guess was confirmed by Badger. 2) The notion of me being under Badger's spell or a disciple or a toady of his is so many sigmas beyond what is actually so, I was left with no other response than "heh." I'm pretty sure Badger or Mason or anyone who has gotten caught between them would confirm this.
I don't know if I was somehow unclear about what I was in fact trying to stipulate, but the above is all. I don't see that I implied anything else in my posts, but unless you are disputing the two above points, I don't really have an interest in the whole business, and I hereby retract anything that appears to assert anything otherwise.
FWIW, I am more in the pro 2+2 camp than you could probably conceive. Additionally, when the delenda controversy came up, I sent a very strongly worded letter to Mason and Chuck why the posts should not be deleted and that I felt that SB&GC were out of line. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy jousting with them and against them. And I would enjoy jousting with you about good and bad movies or how to play pot-limit duece-to-seven. But I think the topic of whose spell I'm under is really a nonstarter. I'll even try to come up with a whole new thread to keep us all moving forward.
Big hug!
JG
David,
Just because someone gets a perfect 800 on a Math Sat doesn't mean they are intelligent. I didn't realize this until after your patronizing Badger post!
Vince
Ten 2+2 People With Whom I Don't Want to Get Stuck on a Desert Island:
Tom Weideman - The only time I've ever been in a boat with him, he threw me overboard.
John Feeney - Too much time reflecting, not enough time picking fruit. Why don't you get deep inside the coconut grove, private-school bookworm.
David Sklansky - Always says "I know how we can get off the island," and then "I'll leave it to others to elaborate."
Wildbill - Keeps wanting to bet us we're going to get stuck on the island AFTER we're already stuck on the island.
Greg Raymer - Spends half his time looking for pretty rocks, the other half suing us. Tries to sell us a piece of his action in this "great game on the other side of the island."
George Lind - Always acts like he's crazy, but meanwhile he's building his own boat on the other side of the island.
Paul Pudaite - Makes one appearance on the island. Demonstrates that he's "solved" getting off the island, and never comes back again.
Abdul Jalib - Keeps disappearing for long stretches, and then upon returning, not only claims he's left the island, but that he's left the astral plane.
Rounder - Claims island is a walk in the park compared to growing up in Chicago. Bullies Feeney a lot.
Suburban Poker Man - Keeps changing the names on all the maps to crap like A2CT. Keeps saying "I'm the mayor. I'm the mayor," while dancing around in nothing but a grass skirt and a smile.
JG
Ray Zee-keeps on catching fish, but then releasing them Ed I-same as Ray Zee.
s
"George Lind - Always acts like he's crazy, but meanwhile he's building his own boat on the other side of the island."
That may be the greatest compliment I've ever received from a poker player.
Seriously.
I've called you crazy plenty of times.
:-)
You also called me a trust fund baby.
Yes but I ment it in the nicest sort of way.
Just because I'm curious how you'll spin yourself out of this web.
If you were a trust fund baby, you could afford nicer shirts.
JG wrote: > Greg Raymer - Spends half his time looking for pretty > rocks, the other half suing us. I've never sued anybody, at least not directly.
> Tries to sell us a piece of his action in this "great > game on the other side of the island. Well, what do you expect? That's where George's boat is, and what else is worth winning on an island full of the bums you picked? Plus, backing me heads-up against George, that IS a great game.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Mailgate.com is maintained by:
DARIO CENTOFANTI
Now I ask you is that a beautiful name or what?
Vince
Yes, Vince, names are beautiful. Dave Frishberg's great song, "Van Lingle Mungo," pays homage to the names of baseball players he read in the the boxscores:
Frankie Crosetti, Johnny Sain, Ernie Lombardi, Max Lanier, Johnny Pesky, Eddie Joust, Roy Campanella, and, of course, Van Lingle Mungo, along with many others, all beautifully rhymed.
John
Haven't seen the film yet, but this title sounds like the name of the film Sullivan wanted to make in Preston Sturges's great comedy, Sullivan's Travels. Anybody remember?
BTW, if you haven't seen it, Sullivan's Travels, that is, check out the great montage scene near the close of the film.
John
PS.
SB would know the answer to this one, I'm sure.
John,
You are correct. It is an homage to Sturges and that Greek guy, Homer. Coen Bros. said it was based on the Odyssey and even credit it at the outset. The allusions are pretty loose and not very numerous.
You should see it and on the big screen, especially to enjoy the great soundtrack on a good system.
KJS
It is a great movie and the Cohen bros did great job with this one. Lots of good actors including a familar face from Rounders. I really enjoyed the movie. Go see this one onthe big screen if u can. Its better then anything else out right now. Though 15 Minutes looks good but that does not come out till Friday.
As KJS pointed out, a great soundtrack. I liked it so much I had to stop and get the CD on the way home from the movie theater. I always liked Norman Blake anyway.
Oh, and the movie is very good. IMHO
Howard
n/t
No, it's not about Vince and Badger.
Today, Bush responded to the shootings in San Diego by calling the event an "act of cowardice." I'm not sure exactly what an "act of cowardice" would entail, but the actions and motivations of a troubled fourteen year-old student who fires upon his classmates and teachers need further thought. Bush proves once again that--to paraphrase lat night's The Soprano's--there's no interlocutor between his mouth and brain.
John
It's the standard line tho isn't it? Used to describe every act of terrorism throughout the century. From Pearl Harbor to the Middle East. Bush surely isn't the first in power to use it.
When applying it to the school shooting- on one hand what else can you call someone who attacks unarmed people with firearms? Certainly not a hero. On the other hand, he knows he will be caught and punished and maybe even killed, so does that make him brave?
I know nothing about the shootings or the possible motives behind them. I feel sorry for the all the victims involved, including the troubled teens. But they must be held accountable for their actions.
It's a sad state of affairs but certainly not the presidents fault
I beleive a lot of these shhool shootings are done because of the wall to wall coverage they get - the "coward(s)" get to have their face plastered all ovet cable TV for days on end and it is a motivation for a troubled teen to off a bunch of his class mates.
I think if we demonized them more and showed them less we might be ahead of the game and I thank GWBush for his leadership on theis issue.
We don't need to "understand" these sick kids we need to elininate the problem with airport type security in schools.
Bush also said that we need to educate the kids more. I think that is a load of crap. These kids know right from wrong.
jazzman
Front page headline in Los Angeles: "Worst since Columbine." Great. So now we've set a bar for other kids to reach for? Every kid who does this gets so much press and vindication as "a kid who got picked on and struck back" that to a confused and despondent teen, it begins to look like a viable option. We should all e-mail Charlton Heston every time this happens (and it will continue to happen, guaranteed) to remind him that the gun didn't kill anybody.
Remember, guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people. (Guns just make it REALLY easy and kind of fun.)
Why not eamil Fox, MSNBC and CNN they are the ones giving these sick kids the 15 min. they are looking for.
As for the NRA that is a straw dog they have their place in society they run safety training classed for the young and try to preserve out 2nd ammendment rights. If it were for the gun grabbers like McCarthy, Brady's and Schummer only the bad guys would have them and that ain't good.
BTW I quit the NRA a few years ago cuz of their stubborn stance on assult weapons which was a nonissue as far as I was concerned. All it did was give the left ammo to fight with.
Rounder,
What leadership are you thinking of? Perhaps it's the cute little catch phrase that amounts to nothing. Certainly, it's not the duty of the President to solve these problems, but the phrase "act of cowardice" might be reserved for more deserving occasions. After all, is this kid really Hussein?
John
At least he wasn't biting his lip when he said it.
I was in Borders recently looking for some 2+2 to browse, when I saw a thin volume by Harry Anderson (the magician of Night Court fame) titled Games You Can't Lose. One of the chapters in the book was entitled "Games You Can't Win," and much to my surprise, casino poker was listed right along with craps, roulette and the slots. Why? According to Anderson, (1) the house rakes the pot, so no one can win, (2) teams of cheats come in and signal each other, and (3) local pros will eat you alive. I wonder who did the research for this book.
What were the games you can't lose?
--worm
Harry is pretty right unless you are one of the sharks.
I found this interesting exchange of thoughts on RGP:
Mike Caro: (3 MAR, ENGLISH ONLY QUESTION FOR DALLA !!!)
"Secondly, why shouldn't English be spoken everywhere? Isn't it the world language of both business and science? Great thoughts have been written in English by great thinkers, but no truly great thoughts have ever been written in alternative and incomprehensible languages."
Marc Gilutin:
"This is exactly why the French hate us."
Rgds,
Zbych,
"Great thoughts have been written in English by great thinkers, but no truly great thoughts have ever been written in alternative and incomprehensible languages."
Plato, Martin Luther, DaVinci, Socrates, Voltaire, Hesse, Hugo, Zola, Aristotle, Virgil, Kafka, Malarme, Homer, Sartre, Tolstoy, Nietszche, Beckett. . .
Yup. . .I guess Mike's right!
...Kant, Heidegger, Wittgenstein, Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg, Schroedinger, Schopenhauer...etc etc
(Wow lot of germans :))
Mike was being sarcastic and doing a bit of trolling.
While I don't agree with Mike I believe the European Community does. I believe that I read that they have voted English as the common language edging out German. Seems thatsomething similar happened one other time in our History that escapes me.
Vine
Great thoughts have been written in English by great thinkers, but no truly great thoughts have ever been written in alternative and incomprehensible languages."
Yeah, lord knows that Crime And Punishment and The Brothers Karamazov are worthless novels. His statement is even more ridiculous than his CP articles.
If you all would bother to read Mike's entire post on RGP, you would see that it is irony and sarcasm. Mike was having fun, and those that didn't read the post don't know that. The trouble with dry ironic wit is that many people take it as serious. How could you possibly think that Mike would make a statement like that and be serious about it?
Here is how to get to RGP:
http://www.mailgate.org/rec/rec.gambling.poker/index.html
obviously a bit of sarcasm here.
on a serious note, wouldn't it be nice if we did have a common world language? I wouldn't care which language it was. every educated person would speak a native tongue and some other universally common language.
When he writes these things, he is being absolutely literal, such that the apparent meaning of his words is not what he is saying.
Is French incomprehensible? Or German, or Greek? No. They are fully comprehensible, even if you or I don't comprehend them at this moment.
So, only a language that is absolutely incomprehensible is excluded by his statement. In that respect, he is correct. No great thoughts have ever been written in an incomprehensible language.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
maby we should bring back latin, everything in western culture was either written in latin, bastard latin (french, spanish, italian), a language heavely influenced by latin (everything else to come out of europe except basque) or can easly and accurately be translated into latin (greek)
Hungarian, as with Basque has no relation to latin.
humm
Remember that Latin gave us the "B" in "doubt," and allowed us to choose "excrement" when that perfectly good word "shit" is readily at hand.
Lee Munzer wrote:
"I don't know Vince, but he certainly doesn't have a read on Badger. How doI know? Vince states, "Mason Malmuth is his (Badger's) normal target for these types of remarks. Of course it is obvious that with Mason, Badger's reason is one motivated by jealousy." Talk about reading players ... that's tantamount to reading a player for a bluff and they show four sevens."
Hey guys,
If you have read my posts concerning Badgers derogatory comments you'll know that Lee Munzer took Badgers side without even bothering to see if what I said was true or a lie as Badger stated. Well the above is another statement in the same thread from this Lee Munzer person. As you can see he admits that he doesn't know me but that didn't stop him from saying I was despicable. Well maybe he is right, I may be despicable. But I don't claim to be a poker authority like him and then make a stupid comment like the one above. He talks about reading players like he understands how to play poker and then show's his stupidity. Does anyone else know why his analogy is silly and just plain stupid. I'm talking about the following: "Talk about reading players ... that's tantamount to reading a player for a bluff and they show four sevens."
I'll tell all of you that if this guy thinks that he made a good analogy he doesn't have the slightest idea of how to read players and probably is a lousy poker player. Anyone with any experience playing poker knows that when you read an opponent there is always the possibility that you will make a mistake. In fact even if you are a great reader you will misread occaisionally. What Munzer doesn't understand is that when a good reader reads an opponent for a bluff that opponent is either bluffing or has a monster like the 4 sevens in his example. So much for any advice this guy might give you.
I would be happy and apprecitive if somehow this post found it's way to rgp under Lee Munzer's repoase to my 2 + 2 cesspool post in Badgers original thread.
Vince
The above might be better as a new thread on rgp if someone would be so kind to post it for me.
Vince.
Dear Vince,
seriously, just get a newsreader!
but in the meantime.....
Regards.
Thanks buddy! It won't happen again. Promise!
vince
Hey Vince we all know where Badger is coming from and ignore his bombasts for the most part. The bottom line is that Badger is interested in promoting Badger. All of the stuff he writes about 2+2 is directed towards this end (soon I will be labled a toady again). He has a website now with advertisers and such so I think you can see why he considers 2+2 to be a rival and expends a great deal of energy blasting this site, directing people away from 2+2, knocking poker books, and directing people to his site.
As far as this Lee Munzer guy, he does interviews and features about poker and as far as I can tell writes next to nothing about the strategic aspects of poker. You're right Munzer's analogy is poor. Perhaps it would be better to correct him by offering up some concepts regarding bluffing, how he missed the boat so to speak, and explaining why judging a play by results is generally wrong.
Chill Vince everything is fine.
Hey Vince, relax.
If this site is truly not a cesspool, but one with (mostly) intelligent individuals, a single post by Badger is not going to matter much at the end of the day.
Please don't fall for his Doug Grant-like trolls and get in a pissing match with him. It serves no purpose. Just like his opinion.
Adam.
Maybe Lee meant to say... "Vince value bets the river with Q4 and a AQ977 board, Badger raises with quad 7's, and Vince calls hoping to get half the pot." It would have been a better analogy.
Maybe.
Vince
I was talking to my friend the other day about our up comming trip to AC for nice poker at the TROP and TAJ and he mentioned to me that RGP was having some kind of reunion trip there that weekend. I hear they are going to mostly be at TROP. I also heard that the Trop was sonspering some special Tourny's for them and that some limit they never spread will be there I belive he said 7.50 - 15 but I could be wrong. Anyhow to the main point of this post. I wanted to go to there web site and check out some the post there and see what some of the people have to say that I might encounter during my trip. However I do not know the web adress to get there as I never saw a need to go there in the past. So if anyone could tell me the adress or more about thier visit that would be cool. I want to wipe these fools out as there seems to be a nice battle between 2 + 2 and RGP people as of late.
I've played in some of these events and if you value your bankroll give it a pass.
are the players that good (can't tell it from the posts) or are they just not that great a value?
Last time I player with them it was a 36 player tournament and only 2 weak links. Among the players were Lee Jones, JP Massure, Abdul Jalib, Bill Chen, JohnnyDavis, Jim Geary, I was 9th that day.
Like I said these are not oa bunch of dead money players. Bring your A+ game and hope for the best.
n/t
The RGP "event" (actually a fun meeting of many computer/poker geeks -sorry fellas) at the Trop is a teriffic event. It is anything you want from high stakes (pot and no limit Holdem with Real Money) to low stakes (all white chips) stud and holdem to tournaments for prizes. There are talks, games, drinking sessions like when you were in high school/college/jail?, eating sessions (this event is not sanctioned by weight watchers) and bull sessions. You may spend a lot or a little. Have fun; that what it is all about.
Rounder should loosen up (not poker wise but fun wise). I am not one of the RPG'ers but I did have a good time with some of them last year. They do not even know who I am, so I am not biased. I do not even know when it is,but I am there every weekend.
The Trop is the perfect place for this type of stuff. I think the entry fee is five dollars. Check their newsgroup for more info. Come on down. What else is there to do in March? It will be an experience, and if you are afraid of loosing too much money as Rounder suggests, leave your big bills at home.
If you go to http://www.jazbo.com/ and click on the Atlarge link on the left you can see info about past gatherings and info on this years events.
Randy
Can you register on site?
Jim please except my apology for any nasty things I have said to you in the past few days. I was wrong and I'm sorry.
Vince.
Dear Vince,
What a true gentleman you are to have the integrity to post a public apology. You have my respect, Sir.
And you my dear have my love!
Vince
BTW - I only apologize when I'm wrong.
>>I only apologize when I'm wrong.<<
You are obviously not married or otherwise attached.
()
Vince,
And I've been under the impression you were not always right, but never wrong.
SPM,...I like this side of your nature, I also like some of your salty stuff, when I'm not the involved...
I knew you were a little tilty, so I didn't worry too much.
JG
Big Al always comes up with great jokes, now he's E-Mailing them to me and I am sharing with you.
SPM,...still in the VoP, film at 11...
Subject: FW: First Grade Teacher's Problem
1st Grade Teachers Problem!!!
A first grade teacher was having trouble with one of her students. The teacher asked, "Johnny what is your problem?" Johnny answered, "I'm too smart for the first grade. My sister is in the third grade and I'm smarter than she is! I think I should be in the third grade too!" The teacher had had enough. She took Johnny to the principal's office.
While Johnny waited in the outer office, the teacher explained to the principal what the situation was. The principal told the teacher he would give the boy a test and if he failed to answer any of his questions he was to go back to the first grade and behave. The teacher agreed. Johnny was brought in and the conditions are explained to him and he agrees to take the test.
Principal: "What is 3 x 3?" Johnny: "9". Principal: "What is 6 x 6?" Johnny: "36".
And so it went with every question the principal thought a third grader should know. The principal looks at the teacher and tells her, "I think Johnny can go to the third grade." The teacher says to the principal, "Let me ask him some questions?" The principal and Johnny both agree.
The teacher asks, "What does a cow have four of that I have only two of?"
Johnny, after a moment, "Legs."
Teacher: "What is in your pants that you have but I do not have?" The principal's eyes open really wide and before he could stop the answer,
Johnny replied, "Pockets."
Teacher: "What does a dog do that a man steps into?"
Johnny: "Pants"
Teacher: "What word starts with an 'F' and ends in 'K' that means a lot of excitement?"
Johnny: "Firetruck"
The principal breathed a sigh of relief and told the teacher, "Put Johnny in the fifth grade, I missed the last four questions myself."
.
Pretty Good SPM, pretty good.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
:-)
I am interested in dealing poker at a casino in AC. However my credit is not so good. I have one charged off credit card but have two other credit cards in good standing. I read on the net that when you go for a 2-1 license that they do a background check. Is my charged off card a reson for them to deny my license?
I think most of the dealers in AC are overextended. I do not think that is a problem (I could be wrong however). I think character problems like arrests, DWI, non-payment of child support things like that are problems, not bad credit. Call up the commission. half of those guys are one time crooks anyway
I am not a dealer but while I was sitting at a 1-5 stud table at the Trop in AC we had a conversation and that came up. He said they need dealers and u can work while u get your lience. Some guy mentioned that he had spent time in jail for Burgerly and wonder if they would hire him. The dealer said the would so i dbout bad crediet will hurt u to much. BTW he said at the Trop dealers keep there own tips so u might want to try there. I am not sure about any of the other casinos in AC
The forms filled out in A.C. for a dealer's license are not as involved as they are for Pit Manager and above. The most important thing is not to lie or mislead on any statement you make. If bad or questionable credit were a problem, A.C. would be a ghost town. Be up front on your disclosure form.
mm
news:rec.gambling.poker
Do anyone know website that give good $$ for used books?
I don't think it's appropriate to reply here, but e-mail me and I'll provide some tips..
The March issue of "Racing Monthly" contains a great article entitled USING PUBLIC PERCEPTION TO MAKE A PROFIT.
The aricle is about Glenn Barton. A horse player who after 16 years of using speed points,track modelling,pace ratings,and calculating feet per second velocities, found that the true turning point for him was reading Sklansky's GETTING THE BEST OF IT.
A great article if you get the chance to read it.
Good Luck
Howard
I swear dilemna can be spelled like this. But, everywhere I look all I see is dilemma. Did Mrs. Brooks lead astray back in third grade?
Isn't a delimna what your mother used to give you when you ate too many sunflower seeds and got all plugged up?
yanno, i had that same thought months ago about the word dilemma, even looked it up because someone told me i spelled it incorrectly when i spelled it as "dilemna". I think it's just a case of so many ppl were spelling it wrong that it made it right..heh
Senate to repeal rules aim to reduce worplace injuries. Republicans denounce the regulation as expensive for bussiness. 5 Democrats from the south voted to repeal. W backs the move. ""This is special interest legislation. This is political payoff. Make no mistake about it"" For Rounder and Dr, Wogga things are looking gooooood....
Like most of the "feel good" crap clinton and his henchmen were behind.
I hope all his special orders are tossed out with the trash.
Why don't you do a little research on the issue before spouting off the party line?
Is that the communiest party???
It's the Kennedy Party. That wrinkled, puffy faced windbag is leading the charge against repealing this "law"- accusing the GOP of bowing to "special interests". That would be hilarious if it weren't so hypocritical. Ted Kennedy is THE leader of the most powerful special interests in the land: environmental wackos, feminists, big labor, teachers, trial lawyers, gun haters, and for profit race baiters.
This law (which in tomp oin the Constitution, Clinton fashion circumvented the legislative branch) was a boondoogle for trial lawyers and big labor. The "special interest" to which the GOP is bowing are the millions of small business owners that are creating jobs and driving the economic prosperity for which Kennedy and the Dems took credit.
It boogles the mind. Go grab another martini, you bozo.
Michael
Do you really believe that "environmental wackos, feminists, big labor, teachers, trial lawyers, gun haters, and for profit race baiters" represent a more powerful special interest than the largest, wealthiest and most powerful multinational corporations on the planet, that routinely back the Republicans over Democrats? Gimme a break. Everyone knows the Republicans are the party of business, big and small. I am sure you know this from reading the business press and seeing who they endorse.
KJS
Puhleazzzzzzzzzze!!
Check the voting statistics.
I think it boils down to the philosophy of each party. The Democrats prefer an income re-distribution to people making less than the median income and the Republicans are more pro-capitalism where people are paid according to their contribution to the economy.
And, exactly, how is that contribution measured?
Consider: Congress spent twenty minutes debating the Savings and Loan bailout; it spent thirty minutes debating changes to the Congressional hair salon.
Consider: billionare investors bailed out of disastrous stock investments; small investors stuck billions.
The contribution is measured by what the market will pay. Would you have it any other way?
Our economic system is not a pure capitalistic system but a mixture of capitalism and a planned economy. The degree of government intervention in redistributing income is what is at issue. I think it is very clear that government policies of the late 80's and 90's where intervention to redistribute income was curtailed a great deal has brought about far more prosperity than the policies of the 60's and 70's where the government intervened much more actively.
"The contribution is measured by what the market will pay."
Tom,
I think you got the tail wagging the dog here. Ever see comparisons between what CEO's earn relative to each other and their company's performance? The market does not pay relative to contribution.
John
Disagree totally.
What you stated is IMO an example of fuzzy thinking and it is rather vague. Of course our economic system isn't perfect but it's prefarable to a lot of other alternatives that I have witnessed. Your statement is hardly a repudiation of the market determining compensation.
You still haven't answered my question as to what alternative you would prefer although I could probably make an accurate guess.(Would you rather have it any other way?).
Tom,
I thought you were posing a rhetorical question. What I disagree with is your assertion that people are paid according to their "contribution" to society. I realize full well that the market, in a sense, determines wages--and I don't have a huge problem with that, and, no, I don't advocate for a dismantling of our economy. (You must admit, though, that income is distributed unequally--whether that's the way it should be or not certainly goes beyond pure economic considerations.)
What I was trying to point out, though, is that Fleet Bank's CEO Terry Murray, for example, although one of the least efficient CEO's, earns much more than some of his peers who perform much better, at least in terms of "contribution" to shareholders.
When you state that people are paid according to their contribution, you also imply that those who earn the most contribute the most, an implication I have trouble accepting.
Perhaps you recall the bailout of a few billionaires about to lose billions in stock market investments because it would have been "bad for the economy." Would you have been given the same salvation? But, I suppose, that's another matter. Sleep tight.
John
To answer your first question, yes, I do. Take the trial lawyers for example, they represent a very small portion of the population, yet were able to get Clinton to veto tort reform that had the broad support of the people and both branches of the legislature. And the teacher's union has blocked education reform that has been demanded by the people for years, despite the US public education system falling further behind while spending more and more money.
And when I hear bromides that begin with "everyone knows", my skepticism antenna perk up. I prefer to think for myself rather than adhering to a particular dogma, regardless of how hard the mainstream media cram it down the public's throat.
That aside, I fail to see how big and small businesses can be characterized as "special interests". They provide jobs and invesment opportunities to the vast majority of Americans. They make the products that make our lives more enjoyable. They invent the technology that enables us to have this discussion online at virtually no cost. They create the drugs that extend our lives. If they represent any special interest, then that special interest is the millions of working Americans, including myself.
Simply put, "business" does what it does a lot more effectively, and enriches the lives of many more Americans than does the government and the vast web of left-wing special interests represented by the Democratic Party.
But then again, I am biased. I'm a capitalist and a Constitutionalist (read: NOT Republican). Always have been and always will be. The US Constitution and the principles upon which it was built are the engine for liberty and prosperity that eventually lifted most of Europe's people out of serfdom.
I've also seen the alternative first hand and it isn't a pretty sight.
that each African American constitutes only three fifths of a person. Tell us how holy you are.Just don't ask for anyone to send you their material possesions. You won't find many followers.
Michael,
I respect your freethinking anti-dogmatic attitude, but I think we still disagree on what constitutes a "special interest". In my understanding, this is a made up word used by politicians to demonize those people that lobby to change things the politician believes in. No lobbyist calls himself, or his client a "special interest". Only politicians use this word. It has no neutral meaning at all.
That said, what I meant in my post is that the power to exact change through lobbying and other methods of greasing the political machine is more widely yeilded by the wealthy businesses of this country than the various social and identity groups you listed. Maybe it would have been more clear if I stated that I think that the lobbyists employed by multinational corporations and their interest groups (industrial alliances such as the Restauranteurs Association, Chamber of Commerce, etc.) along with the individual donations and clout of their wealthy members dwarfs the combined power of those you mentioned.
"Business" widely defined does have an agenda, and that can be ascertained just by reading The Wall Street Journal, Fortune, etc.. I believe that is undeniable. Inasmuchas we agree that their agenda, such as rolling back ergonomic regulations, is forwarded by certain lobby groups, members of the press, and individuals, they respresent an interest group very analogous to big labor, trial lawyers, etc.. If I were to choose which was more powerful, I would certainly answer business.
KJS
You are a moron.
Now I know where Big Al gets all his jokes, he has an endless supply. Who writes these jokes?
SPM,...hope you get a laugh or two...
Subject: God and Bill Gates joke
Bill Gates died in a car accident. He found himself in Purgatory being judged by God, who was undecided hether to admit Gates to Heaven or send him to Hell. "Bill," God says, "I don't know if I should reward you for all the good you did for society by putting a computer in almost every home in the world, or damn you for reating that dreadful Windows 95/98. I'm going to try something I've never done: I'm going to let you decide where you want to go."
Gates asks God what are the differences between Heaven and Hell, and God suggests he visit both places, so he can decide for himself. Gates chooses to visit Hell first, and finds it a tropical paradise: sandy beaches, perfect weather, gorgeous women splashing in the clear water. "This is fabulous," Gates says. "If this is Hell, let's check out Heaven!" God takes Gates up to Heaven, and he sees that it's lovely, all puffy clouds and harp music, but not as beautiful as Hell was. Gates asks to go back to Hell, and God grants his wish.
A few weeks later, God feels he should check up on Bill Gates and see if he is comfortable. He finds Gates shackled to a wall, screaming as the hot flames burn him, tortured by demons. "How's everything going, Bill?" God asks. Bill responds, his voice raw with anguish and betrayal: "This is NOT what I expected! What happened to the sandy beach, and the beautiful women splashing in the surf?" God replies. "That was the screen saver."
Playing in the Valley of Patience, last week was fabulous, this week, first two days up very little. Tuesday was the grind of the slow death. This ain't last week. Now in the a small hole for the week. I must punish the players to night to get my chips back. Their on a recon mission.
Finally the Ballet Boy got kicked out of Hollywood Casino last night for yelling at a dealer, who told him to wait for his turn to muck the hand. Nothing more.
Ballet Boy true to form, calls the dealer a bad name, then when the floor shows up, he escalates his attach on the dealer with words and a louder voice, "Do your job!" he yells at the dealer, as he continues his attach, etc. I thought the dealer was doing his job. The floor ejected Ballet Boy for the day. Good call. He blows up at players, and well, no need to rehash old wounds.
SPM,...there's never a good reason to yell at a dealer...
SPM,
Do i know ballet boy?
:-)
"SPM,...there's never a good reason to yell at a dealer... "
Unless, of course, you are a "Ballet Boy"!
vince
:-)
Got an email today from an LA buddy covering a wide range of topics. In the email, my friend said word around the campfire in LA poker circles is that Johnny Chan has been hooked up in big heads-up games over the past month or so with Larry Flynt, and that Johnny has Larry on the hook for 3 or 4 million.
Any truth to this, or just urban legend?
If it is, let's hope that Johnny has the good sense to give Flynt a 10-15 percent rebate like the casinos do. Flynt's been known to expect that.
No way. That 10-15% could buy him an extra week or two at the Pai Gow tables.
Flynt has been known to drop 10 million at BJ in vegas weekend so 3-4 mil over a month is not a big deal to a sleazy scum bag like this.
why do you think Larry Flynt is a sleazy scumbag?
I tip my hat to Johnny for catching one of the biggest fish in the aquarium, milk 'em good Johnny!
>>>>><<<<<
Whose Larry Flynt?
vince
N/T
At least according to Milos Forman's miserable hollywood interpretation.
x
A friend of mine called an intersting game the other night and we need a name for it any Ideas?? The game is played like this u get 2 cards down and a round of betting, 1 community card and round of betting, each player get 1 up card and round of betting and then there is another community card and finally everybody gets 1 down card and round of betting.
INSANITY!
Hold 'em, Minnesota Style.
()
Stoldem!
Vince
Who has the best steak in Vegas? I'm going there for the weekend, and am looking for recommendations. I've been to Morton's, which is quite good. Haven't been any place else there for steak. Any advice?
just got back from LV and really enjoyed Kokomos at the Mirage. Also heard good stuff about Prime and Charlie Trotters.
Danny
Bowing to extreme political pressure, Merck announced today that it would lower its price on CRIXIAN and STOCKRIN in developing nations. These are drugs are effective for treating AIDS/HIV and Merck will now sell them at no profit in certain countries, mainly in Africa.
As a result, Merck's stock price fell by $2.75 per share, wiping out $6.4 billion in value for Merck shareholders, including me. Obviously, this caused there to be fewer people willing to invest capital in Merck, which has proven to be a most capable provider of treatment for AIDS and other life-threatening diseases.
I guess the government can always make up the difference by subsidizing research by less capable institutions. They are SO much more effective at deploying capital than the private market. Who could argue with the success of the public schools, the DMV, Amtrak, war on drugs, alternative fuels research, war on poverty , social "security" and other state-funded boondoogles.
I thought this would make for pretty interesting conversation.
Yeah, you support genocide in the name of profit.
How is selling something that you invented, developed, and manufactured genocide, simply because some customers can't pay the price? If the product should be supplied to those who can't afford it because it is a life-and-death issue, that is fine. However, why should the individual or corporation be the one who has to pay for it?
To make a further analogy, more people around the world suffer from poor health that is due to a poor diet than from AIDS or other specific diseases. Does that mean that Nabisco has a duty to supply food to these people at cost? Why not? What's the difference?
If a poor, uninsured person gets in an accident, should the first bystander who sees it have to pay for medical treatment? If we as a society feel that these types of situations are such where help must be provided to the needy, then society needs to pay for it, just like society pays for welfare, medicare, and other things it has decided should be universally available. If people in this or other countries are deathly ill and can't afford a medication or treatment, it is up to society as a whole to pay for it, not the specific company that developed the drug or treatment.
If the company has to pay for needy customers, then what company would ever spend capital to develop a product that was intended to cure a disease or health need suffered primarily by poor people? Don't we want companies to have an incentive to invent a treatment for such people? There are many diseases that are primarily suffered by poor people in less-developed nations. And it is these diseases that get the fewest research dollars. However, if the companies could make a profit selling drugs/treatments for these conditions, you can be sure that the money spent on research in these areas would increase.
Capitalism isn't a bad system at all. It is heartless, but so is every other system. It is always a question of making hard decisions, because everything cannot be done today. The question is simply whether the market or the politicians make most of the decisions. In the USA, the market makes most of the decisions, and the politicians step in to set up some rules and make a few decisions. I'm sure it could work better than it does, but it isn't a terrible thing as it is now. I suspect it would work better with less input from politicians, but maybe I'm wrong.
This is a bit long, and I don't want to go over it with a fine-tooth comb, so if you think I've said something stupid or ignorant, let me know. Maybe I'll realize I worded something poorly, or that I said what I meant but was wrong. And, as a disclaimer, I work for a major Pharmaceutical company. However, I don't believe the views I've expressed would be different no matter who I worked for.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
x
The people who should be most outraged by the decision are HIV+ residents of first world countries. They have been hit with the double whammy of 1) subsidizing the sale of drugs to Africa, and 2) seeing the chance of a more effective treatment come down the drug pipeline be dramatically reduced. Add to this the fact that the availability of a more efficacious AIDS treatment will have a negligible effect on the rate of new infections. There is even evidence that effective AIDS treatments increase transmission rates because the cost of getting AIDS is reduced so much. Who cares if you get AIDS if you can live like Magic Johnson? A healthy supply of cheap medicine, combined with the strong influence of the Catholic church denouncing any sort of condom use, should ensure that the AIDS epidemic in Africa continues well into the future.
Boris,
Do you really believe the Catholic Church has that much power? C'mon; Catholics have ignored injunctions against contraceptives for years.
I love it: "Yes, you too can afford AIDS--just like Magic Johnson." Perhaps Michael's stock will soar again.
John
"Do you really believe the Catholic Church has that much power? C'mon; Catholics have ignored injunctions against contraceptives for years."
Good point. my peace corpse friends tell me that that the church actually gets this point across fairly effectively, mainly because there is already high resisitance to condom use in the culture in many african cultures. better make that many cultures period.
"Yes, you too can afford AIDS--just like Magic Johnson."
you should be on Madison Avenue. The cynical fact of the matter is that there is ample evidence to support this statement.
I agree with this. Furthermore, there's the issue of generic drug manufacturers in S. Africa, India, and Brazil (to name a few) who are probably violating property rights of the AIDS/HIV drug manufacturers, without having to really fear any repercussions. This is just ridiculous.
Does anyone honestly think it's going to stop at allowing patent law to be broken for AIDS drugs? I guess the generics will start doing the research necessary to keep ahead of the curve. Without the incentive, who would want to waste their time, effort, and most of all, money, developing new drugs, just so they can be cannabilized.
Yes, AIDS is an epidemic in southern Africa and SE Asia. I've seen statistics that upwards of 35% of men in S. Africa are infected with HIV. And something must be done. But, this is a PREVENTABLE disease. Education can stop the spread of HIV. And until the government of S. Africa wakes up (I'm talking specifically about the president here), why sink money into a losing battle.
Bill
Very impressive,
A company makes a magnanimous gesture, far greater than most of you can comprehend, and all you can think about is the effect on your portfolio.
Adam.
Nicholas Regush produces medical features for ABCNEWS. In his weekly column, published Wednesdays, he looks at medical trouble spots, heralds innovative achievements and analyzes health trends that may greatly influence our lives.
Here is a column he wrote for ABCnews.com.
It is taking on the appearance of a mass slaughter. A drug induced-nightmare of unprecedented magnitude for many people who have tested HIV-positive. They have strokes, heart attacks and suffer liver and kidney damage. They develop dangerously high cholesterol and diabetes. Some of them have suffered gross deformities. All because of anti-HIV drugs, namely the nucleoside analogues and protease inhibitors that make up the so-called combination or cocktail therapies. A name more worthy of the toxic effects listed on the drug labels would be "medical poisons." Also alarming is that many of those who develop these afflictions are symptom-free at the start. No sign of AIDS-related illnesses or infections. But because they turn up positive on an HIV antibody test, their doctors, following the herd, hit them "hard and early" with the cocktails. In fact, the major market targets for the makers of these drugs are those without symptoms. Pretty smart marketing, considering that many doctors will keep their patients on the cocktails even when their bodies begin to be ravaged by side effects and even after hospitalization. This is, of course, in the hope that somehow a miracle turnaround will occur and HIV will be neutralized. Yes, there are those chronically ill people with AIDS who have reportedly arisen from their death beds once given the anti-HIV therapy. And because so much has been made of this by the press and the HIV medical establishment, it has not been easy to assess what is really going on here.
Drugs Have Anti-Viral Potential First, these types of drugs do indeed have some anti-viral potential and in some cases might even function like antibiotics. This means that some of the viral and bacterial infections that AIDS represents might be neutralized, if only for a short period of time, before the toxic effects of the drugs take hold. Second, these drugs have been poorly tested and their short-term effect has been inadequately associated with an impact on HIV. It has been AIDS scientist David Ho’s ill-conceived contention that HIV replicates furiously in the body -- as measured by something called "viral load." The drugs, he argued, could reduce this load, thus possibly neutralizing the virus. Unfortunately, the HIV viral load concept is a fantasy, if not a total absurdity. Using a tool to highly amplify what little remnants there might be of HIV in the blood, Ho has taken the grand leap to associate his approach as warranting early prescriptions of these highly toxic cocktails. Because Time had the audacity to proclaim him "Man of the Year" in 1996, the press went wild in delivering messages of hope to those with AIDS. And on the basis of a handful of anecdotal cases of miraculous recoveries. To date, there is still no study that any of these cocktails, separate or together can extend life. And contrary to those scientists who apparently still believe in the tooth fairy, there is no evidence that the use of these cocktails is related to the decline in AIDS deaths. Deaths due to AIDS were already declining in 1994, several years before the cocktails were shot out of a marketing cannon. Now science must confront this ongoing travesty. Those in science and medicine who are perpetuating or condoning this passive genocide will one day be held accountable.
Big Al says this one is worth reading.
SPM,...I enjoyed it...
Worth Reading , This Small Story about Life...
Two men, both seriously ill, occupied the same hospital room. One man was allowed to sit up in his bed for an hour each afternoon to help drain the fluid from his lungs. His bed was next to the room's only window.
The other man had to spend all his time flat on his back.The men talked for hours on end. They spoke of their wives and families,their homes, their jobs, their involvement in the military service, where they had been on vacation.
And, every afternoon, when the man in the bed by the window could sit up, he would pass the time by describing to his roommate all the things he could see outside the window.
The man in the other bed began to live for those one-hour periods, where his world would be broadened and enlivened by all the activity and color of the world outside. The window overlooked a park with a lovely lake. Ducks and swans played on the water, while children sailed their model boats. Young lovers walked arm in arm, amidst flowers of every color of the rainbow. Grand old trees graced the landscape, and a fine view of the city skyline could be seen in the distance.
As the man by the window described all this in exquisite detail, the man on the other side of the room would close his eyes and imagine the picturesque scene. One warm afternoon, the man by the window described a parade passing by.Though the other man couldn't hear the band - he could see it in his mind's eye, as the gentleman by the window portrayed it with descriptive words.
Days and weeks passed. One morning, the day nurse arrived to bring water for their baths, only to find the lifeless body of the man by the window, who had died peacefully in his sleep. She was saddened and called the hospital attendants to take the body away.
As soon as it seemed appropriate, the other man asked if he could be moved next to the window. The nurse was happy to make the switch and after making sure he was comfortable, she left him alone. Slowly, painfully, he propped himself up on one elbow to take his first look at the world outside. Finally, he would have the joy of seeing it for himself. He strained to slowly turn to look out the window beside the bed.It faced a blank wall.
The man asked the nurse what could have compelled his deceased roommate who had described such wonderful things outside this window. The nurse responded that the man was blind and could not even see the wall. She said, "Perhaps, he just wanted to encourage you."
Epilogue . . . .
There is tremendous happiness in making others happy,despite our own situations. Shared grief is half the sorrow, but happiness,when shared, is doubled. If you want to feel rich, just count all of the things you have that money can't buy. "Today is a gift, that's why it is called the present."
I think we just found the one guy who liked the increasingly treacly Robin William's "Jakob the Liar."
a woman gave birth and loved that baby more than she thought possible, but became pregnant quickly again...she became worried that she would have to give up some love of first child to love the second child enough...but she found , upon the second delivery, that she know had more love for both infants,in fact more for each one, than the first one....
life is not a zero sum game....resources are infinite...gl all...
Bravo.
vince
no/t/
no/t/
Apparently, Dub's daughter Jenna's boyfriend got arrested after a frat party at UT and went to the "my girlfriend is .." card down at the station.
Shortly thereafter a van full of Secret Service agents pulled up and bailed him out.
Now, as much as I hate Clinton, we gotta be fair here.
BTW anybody remember a couple of years ago when one of Gore's daughters got busted for underage drinking and told the cops, "Do you know who I am"?
Pictures taken at the party were posted on the web by the company hired to document the event. Common practice, according to the company.
Next day all those featuring Bush's daughter were taken down.
KJS
It does't matter what he does "Damn if you do, Damn if you dont". Give Dudya a year before you start your chronic bitching, bleeding heart liberals.
and he and his brother are guilty of election fraud. The Bushes make Clinton look like George Washington.
If he lies about it and says it never happened,THEN he is pulling a Clinton.
As the late great Richard J.Daley (Chicago Mayor) said when it was discovered he just gave his son a gigantic insurance contract with the city:"C'mon, if you can't help your kids, who can you help". No more questions asked. The truth goes a long way with the public. Clinton just never understood this
now I hate drunken frat boys as much as the next guy, (except when I see a couple at the card table) however, there is a big difference between pardoning a drunken frat guy because you know somebody who likes him, and pardoning A treasonous lying fugitive from the fbi, who flaunts his wealth because he is indeed powerful enough to buy off the president of the united states.
Not only are all the contestants white on that show, they're lily white. Northern europeans mostly. It's almost comical when they introduce all the contestants each week.
Whats your point.
Are you saying that the producers of the show are racists? Are you saying that northern europeans are smater than the rest of the world? Do you know what the procedure is to get on the program or are you just tossing out the race card for the fun of it!!!
My point? There is none, only an observation. Lighten up.
Yeah.. who said that a post had to have a point?
A Native American woman from Seattle, who runs quiz night at a local pub, went to NY to tape a show last week. She did not make into the hot seat (is that what its called?) but will be introduced nonetheless. For what its worth.
KJS
that is a bold blanket statement and i'll have to cry environment on that one. every inner city in america is majority low income black. people/kids there are not exposed to the type of education or opportunities that others are that would allow them to perform well on an "iq test". those tests are pretty silly anyway if you've ever taken one.
x
>>>>>><<<<<<
Whites run 15+ IQ points higher than blacks on average. If intelligence is the criteria for getting on this show then you'll find most (98%) of the contestants are non-black.
North Asians run 6 IQ points above whites. How well are they represented? I don't watch the show.
This topic is the least politically correct issue in social science today. To me, it offers the answers to so many of today's social problems. America is a nation of equal opportunity but it can't, won't shouldn't try to become a nation of equal outcomes.
Read 'The Bell Curve' for enlightenment (Murray + Herrnstein).
if you read the Bell Curve you would know that IQ is correlated with success only among the geniuses and the retards.
for the rest of us, IQ is not relevant.
.
Mmmmm, pie.
Pizza pie is the nuts !
Did you say "hairpie"??
jazzman
Where you been, Alex?
Not Alex, but I too was wondering where he's been. Come back Alex. We have some pie for you!
I am going to Miami soon and would like to know if anyone here knows of any cardrooms there.
Thanks a lot, Beeb
youll find 1 in pompano beach i think, about an hour drive if i remeber well
In a recent poll, a group of experts named "jazz" the word of the century and "she" the word of the millennium. Agreed?
i'll ask my wife..
how about world war two as the words of the century, and rennassance as the word of the millienum???
In a recent poll, a group of experts named "jazz" the word of the century and "she" the word of the millennium. Agreed?
You miss understood the poll of the experts. They said razz was the lost word of the centruy and Hold'em the new word of the millennium. This is a poker web site and that we can all agree.
SPM,...clearing up fuzzy thinking...
No complaints about "jazz" here...lol
jazzman
who are these experts?
Rick,
20th century and second millennium, but I thought you'd have known that. Group of experts: various types interested in language, editors, writers--no, not the feminist militants you're thinking of. I'll explain later why "she" was chosen, but you got a guess?
John
Well, this seems like as good a place as any to say that I think it's absolutely disgusting that we haven't yet had a female president!
.
nt
John F. (and John C.),
I would vote for Margeret Thatcher if she was eligible. I like a leader with balls ;-).
Rick
THEY, of the They Say, They's...
What was the criteria? Sound? Diversity of meaning? Political ramifications? Coolness?
Without knowing, it seems as meaningless as asking what the greatest color is.
KJS
The criteria, I believe, are impotance and significance. I know these criteria are somewhat hazy, yet the choices seem interesting to me, at least. If I recall correctly, "she" was chosen because before its appearance, no English pronoun existed for the female singular. English used "heo" for the pronoun; that pronoun, however, indicated "women" rather than "woman."
John
In a recent poll, a group of experts...
expert in what?
If they were poker experts, I would have to go with "rebuy" both ways.
A couple of "experts" one thousand years from now, will look back to the 20th century and none of what seems to be important today will seem even trivially significant then. So, what will they pick as the 20th century's outstanding characteristic?
I'd say that we had a lot of bombs, in the 20th century. Lots and lots of bombs. And it looks like we're not gonna have anything ressembling such a hard rain ever again. (We better!) Apart from that, we screwed up the environment a little bit - but I assume that this will be corrected in the 21st century.
Otherwise, my two "experts" will have nowhere to sit on and knock back those beers.
A big Copolla bomb.
the generation of the feminine singular pronoun was inevitable and rock 'n roll has overshadowed jazz.
here's a few other potent words:
liberty, emancipation, democracy, literacy
fascism, Nazi, H-bomb, genocide
penicillin, vaccine, sanitation, longevity, ecology
AIDS (the greatest scientific blunder of the century)
evolution, quark, quantum, supernova, gravity, television, laser, automobile
midriff, cheesecake, bikini, pinup, sexpot
I want to thank Big Al for sending me these internet jokes and stories. I have been experiencing some writters block caused by staying on my "A" game too long. My wrist is in real good shape from the endless releasing of any two cards from any position.
Who would have thought K2 suited was going to be the SPM's defining hand yesturday. The SPM called a raise from Will Wiskers with the K2 suited, Will Wiskers had been running over the game. The SPM was tired of being pushed around.The flop came K 2 Q rainbow, on the turn the SPM picks up a flush draw. Will Wiskers had stopped leading the betting so the SPM took over the responsibility and bet the turn, the Mid Night Mauader raises, Will Wiskers calls the SPM re-raise and at the river the lucky SPM shows two pair KK 22, the Maurader shows QQ 22 and Will Wiskers had released his hand. Sorry Artful Dodger, the SPM did not take the walk after playing a bad hand, he's weak, but in the black for the week.
SPM,...enjoy Big Al's joke from the internet...
Subject: Subject: Forty Years Ago
A couple was driving along a country road.. The wife says, "Sweetheart, let's stop and do the same thing we did here forty years ago!"
The husband stops the car. His wife backs against the fence, and he's immediately on her like a bass on a June bug. They make love like never before. She was SCREAMING and GYRATING and SHAKING uncontrollably; and when it was over, much to her husband's surprise, she FAINTED!
After he revived her and got her back into the car, the husband, quite astounded, says: "Darling, you sure never moved like that forty years ago or ANYTIME SINCE, that I can remember." The woman, gasping for breath, finally able to speak, says: "FORTY YEARS AGO THAT DAMN FENCE WASN'T ELECTRIC".
nt
I was wondering if anyone has seen any of the world series of poker videos and thought they were any good? Also the Tournament of Champions video... Also, two more.. Caro's power poker seminar, and Sklansky the Video... If anyone would steer me in the path of good videos I would more than appreciate it! Thanks in advance
The videos are petty cheap considernig you can buy them all for just one bad session at 2-4.
Get them all they can't hurt and if it just helps just a little they are worth it.
I would avoid the WSOP of the 1999 event it is really a 4th class effort - get the discovery chanel one instead. Caros "tell" tapes are good too.
Coming to Chicago on business, can someone give me info on the cardrooms there. I'm staying on the "Magnificent Mile" and will have a rental car. Where are the best and/or most convinent places for me to play? What do they spread? And, how long will it take me to get there and what times should I avoid driving?
Any help appreciated.
look in the archives of recent. our beloved spm had a splendid one under something about homework. there was another also by another of our chicago players. maybe one of those with more time than money will repost it for you if you cant find them.
From downtown Chicago, Harrah's in East Chicago, IN is your best bet. It's about 20-30 minutes from downtown.
nt
It will get into the low 50's today day and I'll begin to prowl the rivers again. Even though its my 23rd season in Montana, I'm pumped!
It seems like we're headed for another season of low stream flows. I'm concerned about fish losses this summer.
Skwala have been coming off on the Yuba the past week or so (I've heard, haven't been =(). Heard the lower Sac has been hot with huge BWO and caddis hatches coming off and no surface action!! not even a dimple. must be a lot of life underwater for the fish not to rise to those
Its somewhat interesting when the surface is covered with bugs and nothing rises. On the Henrey's Fork some years back, on cloudy cold day the surface was literally covered with bugs and nothing. This on maybe the premier dry fly river in the nation. I never took my fly out of the keeper just walked the banks searching.
for those that dont know and are interested, skwala are a kind of kickname for a certain stonefly. BWO are blue winged olives which is a mayfly. yes the rivers are going to be very low this year and i hope fish and game makes some closures or we will lose alot of fish. i hope to get on the bitterroot river later this month when we get the next warm wave. im sure you want to get fishing early this year before it gets warm as your wife may find another house or something for you to paint:)
Skwala and BWO are second nature to me, so I forgot that not everyone is enamored with the long rod.
Funny you should mention painting as I only finished about 60% last year. I also found a list of other projects for this year my wife hopes I complete. I was a much better fish bum than I am a homeowner/husband.
I was able to only spend 2 hrs on Clark Fork today but no lack of fish to cast to. I believe they were rising to midges because I could not see anything on the water, hell I'm suprised I landed anything since I couldn't see my fly(18-20). I know what blind fishing means now.
Fish and Game is offering funding for emergency drought response projects,working with water users to improve in stream flows. I wish them success.
Ed, is it one fly only on the Clark Fork? If not you can use a big dry (EHC, Royal Coachman, etc) as an indicator to tell you where your no-see-um is.
I'm a stubborn old coot who hasn't come to grips with my declining abilities.
Actually I have resolved to try trailing a nymph behind my Skwalla this year.
I also wish to test the effectivness of coloring a section of leader white.
Your 2wt would have been perfect yeasterday, thin flat water, small flies, no wind.
only whitefish were rising up here in the flathead. i was going to fly down to missoula and fish but i decided to go to glacier park and snowshoe to the head of lake mcdonald and watch the avalanches come down from the warm sun on the southeast slope. the fishings not open yet there but there were alot of small cutts hitting surface bugs all around me.
heard the snow pack is really low this year. In years like this it seems that June is the crucial month for determining the severity summer draughts. June is often very wet and can post-pone the low stream flows to late summer.
one of my favorite close to town fishing holes was the stretch of Clark Fork at the turn-off to Marshall ski area. There were some really nice fish in there. of course catch and release is mandatory as you would not want to eat anything from that stretch of river.
Thanks, I'll check it out.
Snow pack 2/3 of last years, almost record lows. Did rain today.
I haven't fished up here in Washington yet, but some steelheading on the Stillaguamish might be in order soon
KJS
How about this story, off a web site for WA flyfishing:
Wow! And where were you?
Now that was eerie. Bill J. and I were doing our once a week guide trip......this time on the Skagit. Bill had already released a pretty wild hen.......with fresh net marks on her. Hmmm.
I LDRed a dandy at the head riffle of a favorite lie. I had just waded back out into position, Bill was 100 feet, downstream. I swear it felt like a train coming......under my feet! It finally dawned on me........we standing in the middle of the Skagit River, in middle of a bloody earthquake!! Now I have pictured myself during a quake; places like: driving a car, in a building, at home in bed.....I was even in the Kingdome, during the last quake..........but in a river? I honestly didn't know what to think!...or do!
Really Weird: I lost this steelhead, not two minutes before the quake.......Bill proceeds to hook (and land) a fish........not two minutes after. How weird is that?
Do post trip report if you get out.
Its a shame I didn't know how to river fish while I was stationed at Whidbey during late 60's.
Great story! Camped along the banks of the Skagit once. Fine country if memory serves me also understand its world class fishery.
Thanks to Big Al a player at Hollywood Casino in Aurora, IL. We have another internet joke of sorts.
SPM,...five days in grinding mode...
Ole and Sven were fishing when Sven pulled out a cigar but didn't have a lighter so he asked Ole for a light. "Ya, shure, I tink I haff a lighter," he replied and reached into his tackle box and pulled out a 12-inch BIC lighter. "Yiminy Cricket!" exclaimed Sven, "Vhere did yew get dat monster??" "Vell," replied Ole, "I got it from my Genie." "You haff a genie?" Sven asked. "Ya, shure, he's right here in my tackle box," said Ole. "Could I see him?"
Ole opens his tackle box and out pops the genie. The friend says, "Hey dere! I'm a good friend of your master. Vill you grant me vun vish?" "Yes I will", the genie said, so Sven asks him for a million bucks and the genie hops back into the tackle box and leaves him standing there waiting for his million bucks. Suddenly the sky begins to darken and the sound of a million ducks flying overhead is heard.
Sven yells to Ole, "I asked for a million Bucks, not Ducks!"
>> Ole answers, "Ya, I forgot to tell yew, da genie is hard of hearing. Do yew really tink I asked him for a 12-inch BIC
beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. .. Ben Franklin..
good one.
did he really say that?
regards.
nt
:-)
Just thought I'd share an observation about wines since lately, I have found some good ones, and I am pretty particular about beer and wine. You see I cannot waste my calories on crappy stuff.
Anyway, I found a most incredible wine. Unfortunately it is a bit pricy, but worth the cost.
Hands down the best Red wine I have tried in years is a Tuscan red called Summus. I had some of the 1996 vintage. It was incredible, simply incredible. I was given a bottle by a friend who brought it back from Italy. It is made by a company in Tuscany called Castello Banfi. I have since tried some of their other styles and they too are excellent. I highly recommend that any of you wine lovers try this Summus. It is a blend. You will thank me.
.
The 96 and before are available at good wines stores. Many of the regular stores in PA do not carry it due to the price ($43.00)
ITS THE GUNS STUPID .HAS ANYBODY GOT IT YET .
ITS THE CARS STUPID .HAS ANYBODY GOT IT YET .
Pure and simple. Every one of these kids comes from a fucked up family environment - try to understand it OK.
Rounder I'm not flamming you here but I'm not sure that what you're saying is true. The Columbine murderers seemed to have decent family backgrounds. Am I just uninformed about those killers?
The parents of these two killers were very busy Yuppy types to busy making money to raise the kids.
Rounder,
You have the correct answer. What's different in society today is both parents are working and not spending any real time with their kids.
When I was a kid, my father worked and my mother stayed home to take care of me and my sisters. Today, both parents have to work because they purchase cars and houses that are two expensive for them.
I believe the real problem is women in the workforce. They have kids, but they don't take care of them. This is the difference today. There was always guns around. Both my father and grandfather had gun collections when I was a kid.
Yeah Mark I have guns around too but I tought my kids to respect them. My son wouldn't shoot a coon (racoon) who was terrorizing the family cat because I was not home and he was tought not to touch the guns when I was not there.
They know how to claen them and handle them safely they know what damage they can do.
I think you will find every one of these misfit kids coming from a screwed up home that includes the gangbangers who do a lot more damage than the isolated school shootings.
"I have guns around too but I tought my kids to respect them. You will find every one of these misfit kids coming from a screwed up home that includes the gangbangers who do a lot more damage than the isolated school shootings."
No matter how many law-abiding, well-meaning, drug-free citizens like you take extra care with guns, it's the proximity and availablity of guns which is at fault. The United States of America is unique in the world for making available to its populace guns at such huge numbers. Any situation which involves a grievance, a small argument or some bad feelings (situations which are common all over the planet) have the possibility of deteriorating into an irretrievably bad thing - like a shooting.
There're bullies picking on weaklings in every schoolyard in every school in every country in the world. There're drugs also everywhere - hell, read the papers, in some places in Europe it's even legal to sell marijuana in shops. "Screwed-up families"? "Gang-bangers"? Give me a break, the U.S. are not the champion in any of these sports... But only in America can an angry boy pick up a gun so easily and start shooting.
Problem in America IS the single is or no parent families. PERIOD.
That inclujdes parents who don't train their kids about guns and them don't lock them up.
Why can't you gun hating people understand this. I am amazed at how many poker players (1 is to many) are liberals I just can't see a liberal mentality being able to pull off being a winning player.
Well eneough of said.
"I am amazed at how many poker players (1 is to many) are liberals I just can't see a liberal mentality being able to pull off being a winning player."
I know what you mean: a good poker player must have a killer instict. Can't argue with that. But since you're a bona fide "winning player", you would agree with me that the mathematics and the odds are also mighty important, right? Which brings us to your howler:
"Problem in America IS the single is or no parent families."
Sorry, Rounder, but the crime rate (especially of violent incidents amongst family members, friends and neighbors) in the U.S. has always been greatly higher than in any other western democracy you'd care to mention. Greatly higher! Now, if you place the demolition of morality around the 60s, as any true-blue conservative citizen would, you'd have to claim one of these two things : (A) Single-parent families have been an American staple since the Mayflower, or (B) There's serious violence in America only in the last 30 years or so!..
(..If you insist on something that happened in the last 30 years or so that turned many Americans into raving lunatics, I would pick disco.)
Accounting for many many of the busted up homes and latch key kids.
.
God bless my 357 mag
I'm in 100% agreement with you on this Rounder. I know this is anecdotal, but my dad was a cop. And throughout my childhood and teens I always knew he had a bunch of guns and rifles in his room. But it never ONCE occurred to me to go in there and poke around for ANYTHING(guns included). I honestly couldn't tell you if all of those weapons were locked up, because my parents room was OFF LIMITS, and I took them seriously. [There was one class-covered rifle case on his bedroom wall that was kept locked, but that's all I noticed the few times I went in there to call him to dinner, or to say hi, or whatever. All the pistols, and his AR-15 riffle I assume were kept in his closet.]
-Don
missing the point completely. So your parents were strict? that would make it worst in certain cases. Are you telling us that because you didn't pick up a gun when you were upset, you have all the answer and a "perfect family" like Rounder. Tell us it isn't so, Don.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, maybe that's because of your broken english, but yes...I do have a "perfect family" and "ALL" the answers.
dd
zzz
dd
Don: you are a hypocrite, ain't you?
No broken english here: you are a hypocrite.
I'm not sure there is a very strong arguement for your case here. From my understanding most violent criminals come from abusive, broken, and violent childhood settings. To say these teenagers perpetrated these murders because their parents led a yuppie lifestyle doesn't hold water in my mind. There are many teenagers that come from nearly identical backgrounds that don't commit violent crimes and I doubt, although I don't know for sure, that there is any statistical evidence that such a lifestyle by the parents leads to violent crimes. With these school shootings I have observed one common thread that runs throughout all of them and that is peer treatment and peer pressure became intolerable for these students. Do not get me wrong, I have no sympathy for these killers. Also I believe the family setting can have a great deal of influence in encouraging positive behavior for teenagers. I can also tell you from personal experience that in many states parents of teenagers that are in the 16 and 17 year old age bracket are put between a rock and a hard place. There really isn't much a parent can do about a teenager that is 17 and is out of control. They will get virtually no help from the government, law enforcement, or the schools.
What would happen if guns didn't exist? Everything is the same, but no guns to be found anywhere. What would this kids do?
starting to get to me again with your "I am perfect" philosophy...
Our society is very screwed up - BUT people have to take responsibility for teir actions and we can't blame objects for crimes we must blame people for what they do this includes parents of unsupervised teens.
It is a complex problem but the root of he problem is parents and how they raise the kids.
Rounder wrote: "..we can't blame objects for crimes..."
Well put.
after all the answers .its still the guns . when i was a kid where i lived there were no guns .i never new there were such things till i came to this country . i led a shelterd life and still do .
.
I don't think they shoot in other country,I guess it's society Only In America.
you got it roz
also all of these shooters have been on mind altering drugs -- ritalin or prozac , usually prescribed by school teachers or administrators (yeah, they get an m.d. to rubber stamp it)
brad
If this is true and I have no reason to doubt you then this is truelly a significant factor in my mind.
"I will go for the English SAT at 50 paces for $500,000 to settle any stupidity issues."
I called Lee Munzer stupid in a post on rgp. Yes I did! And now he wants to play English SAT! I'm faclept! Do we have another SAT king here. Another David Sklansky! Isn't it humiliating enough that I must cow down to Mr. MAth 800 without now have to add the Bard of Poker Magazines Lee Munzer to my list of "better than thow because I'm a SAT master". I ask you all, is that fair?
You may be wondering why I called Lee Munzer stupid? Well now that I've found that he is master of the English SAT I wonder why also. But in my defense I will say that Mr. Munzer started it! Well you make up your own mind.
I made a nasty comment about a nasty comment that Badger made about the 2 + 2 forum of which I am a regular participant. I know this sounds childish so maybe you don't want to read anymore. It's o.k. I'm venting and don't really care if anyone listens. Anyway, Munzer without any provocation from me entered the foray. I do not know Lee Munzer. Have never written to him about him or made any comments before in my entire lifetime. Yet this SAT King decided that it was o.k. to call me "despicable" in his response. Now he claims that he didn't say I was despicable he said that lies were despicable. But what he said was and I quote "I find it despicable that Vince or anyone else would stoop to degrading him through lies," He claims that he is saying that lying is depicable not me. Well I'm sorry if when the only name associated with despicable is mine that I take it personally. I suppose this must be the reason Munzer wants the English SAT challenge. I just don't understand Englis very well. "despicable that Vince..." does not mean one can associate the word despicable with Vince.
This way of looking at things that Munzer has is understandable. You see he was defending Badger in this response and Badger is one that always clarifies what he says or meant after he is called to task. Badger is also good at clarifying what others meant rather than what they said.
So, here I am, looking for guidance. Should I accept this challenge? Mabye we could make it a three way match. Me against the English Sat king and Oz, the 800 Math Wiz. Hey maybe he'll let me have a couple of folks in my corner. Like John Cole for English and Brian Aslpach or Tom Weideman for Math.
I have one other problem you may be able to help me with. What's an SAT? If I don't have one will you think less of me?
vince
Vince:
You should NOT accept the challenge. It's not worth your time. At best, when you deal with these people you are dealing with mediocrity. Why prove that you are superior to mediocre.
My attititude has always been to work on those things that I can do well and try to do them a little better. I have always felt that with this approach it's just not necessary to concern yourself with these problems no matter how irritating they might seem.
You are upset with people who despite some of their claims, are probably in the minimum wage category. I know from talking with you that your goals are much higher than this.
For years I had to take criticism from many jealous people who were quick to point out that I didn't have what it takes because in their opinion I should have been playing in bigger games. The end result is that most of these individuals are now gone from the poker scene, and the few that survived did so by studying our books. Last night at The Bellagio a person who wouldn't speak to me a number of years ago was very appreciative of some advice that I gave him (concerning a tournament no less).
It may take time, but these things do pass and if you arm yourself with the proper knowledge and use it well you will leave these people behind that you are currently annoyed with. I know from experience, and it is a very positive one.
Vince,
I agree with Mason. Don't waste your valuable time with these guys you don't like. Let's talk poker here, forget about them.
Best of Luck
mah
Vince, you got something to get off your chest? Well, I lent you a smaptytic eye. I saw your frustration and anger and thought, life is a struggle and now another man on your hit parade. My eyes swelled with moisture, I think I got dust in them.
Pondering your perdicament, it came to me like a flash of inspiration. Why put this outragious stress on yourself. Stay out of RGP, the last time I was there it was in black and white, you never knew what you were clicking on, and they didn't have Zee.
Then again, this maybe none of my business, I'll stay tuned. As a kid I always liked the TV show "The Hit Parade."
:-(
"and they didn't have Zee."
Nor his fish stories.
A challenge to see who receives the highest score on an SAT verbal test? Is this bizarre or am I crazy (maybe both)? Vince you're nuts to even consider it. Challenge Munzer to a heads up poker match and make some money. Hit him where it hurts the most.
...or maybe something else entirely. You see, Lee Munzer is no dummy. (well, I know you called himn stupid and all, but bear with me.) He's picking something he knows he's good at and with which he feels he'll have a strong edge. You, Vince, need to counter-challenge with something you know you could beat him at. And it should really be something without much of a luck factor. Do you keep in top shape like some ex-military men? Then maybe weightlifting or distance running would work. Are you a good cook, an excellent gardener, maybe a one time pool hustler or a pilot? Hey, pilot, that's the ticket. If Lee can't fly a plane, but you can, you'd have a huge edge in any sort of flying contest. Fishing - get Ray or Ed in Montana to coach you. Weren't you an engineer or something of the sort? So just challenge him to a test of engineering knowledge. Got it? Personally, stipulating no time to study, I'll challenge anyone here or on rgp to an essay test of knowledge of psychoanalytic concepts - anyone except possibly that HrgSmes guy who puts "endit" at the end of his posts. I think he's a working psychyatrist (from the generation that actually learned psychoanalytic theory... Now it's just meds up the kazoo). So there. ;*/
Vince could challenge him to a wrestling match. Anyway, what kind of challenge is an SAT? That's for sissys and wimps.
John,
Vince is Italian so he should be a favorite to be better in bed than a "Munzer". Would it be possible to line up half a dozen Las Vegas hookers for both of them to indulge in and let them vote? Could such a thing be fairly arranged or would they be too easy to bribe?
Even better, maybe Nina Hartley could make up a sex quiz which should be both fair and legal.
Regards,
Rick
I'm in, so to speak!
Vince
That's a great idea, Rick, but it doesn't answer the intelligence question.
If you want to find out who's smarter just give each of them a copy of "The Critique of Pure Reason" by Kant and demand a ten page synopsis in 48 hrs. Anybody who can finish that book and understand it has to be a genius.
Ummm...my license plate reads, "PNIS NV".
Doctor..pray tell..what does this mean? Am I ill..and can I be helped? And, most of all, do I want to be?
heh
"PNIS NV".
I don't get it? What's a Nevada PNIS? Or is PNIS a city in Nevada? It's a good thing that you didn't write Penis, which is close, because Mason might delete your post. He's deleted posts a Penis in it before. Ha, Ha, that's funny, a penis in it. Get it? No, I guess not or you wouldn't have any "NV" if you got it. Well, maybe but then at least you would have a PNIS by PROXY. That's not bad, I guess. I guess because I don't have "PNIS NV." I have "PNIS SIZE NV". That's close but not the same thing.
Vince
god, Vince (and no, that's not GOD VINCE, hehe), are you really telling me you don't get my license plate
PNIS NV
say it slowly...very slowly..allow it to roll around on your tongue...think Freud....
don't make me draw you a picture, cause i will..heh
I get it! Please reread my post above. I thought it was pretty funny. But then again I wrote it.
vince
Vince,
Please check the menu at left for our new "Vince Lepore Hates RGP and has many bones to pick" forum. I think you will find your posts better suited there. Plus, it will save you the embarassment of having everyone read your bombastic posts about personal feuds that no one really cares about, or else they would read RGP themselves.
Wrong Forum Man (aka KJS)
KJS, are you the real, original "Wrong Forum Man"? There used to be one who posted here regularly. But you don't seem quite as gentle or empathic. Maybe this is a new "tough love" approach for you?
John,
I am not the original WFM. Just thought I would poke a little fun at Vince by borrowing his identity for a minute. Vince seems to be tilting a bit, so I thought a mixture of humor and a bit of tough love might snap him out of it. Hope I was not too harsh.
KJS
Naw, Vince is tough. He even wrote a famous post once called "This Forum is Tough". He'll probably just challenge you to something now. :)
"Vince seems to be tilting a bit, "
KJS if you really believe this please be careful. Lee Munzer may comment on your ability to read players. Why, you may find that you don't know the difference between four sevens and a bluff. BTW- I do not hate rgp in any way whatsoever. I do not like the format there true but I have no feeling whatsoever about the forum participants. I post on 2 + 2 because it is the best poker forum and I find no reason to spend more time on line discussing poker anywhere else.
vince
gee john, bad guess. it was one of our first posters in the early months of the site.
by the way a few of those are still with us. earl, louie landale, tom haley, jim geary etc.
Yeah, after I wrote that I saw the "KJS". I'm sleep deprived. Has Vince contacted you for fly fishing lessons yet?
yeah, all the other early members went broke following the advice of those posters.
JG
The poker god has been very kind to the SPM this year. However, after reflecting on the past couple of months of play. The SPM remembered the words from Q-Ball, a hold'em player from Harrah's poker room in East Chicago, IN, who said "Suburban, you don't have an "A" game." Alas the Mayor of Any2card Town plays the Border Town (BT) way. The SPM plays tight & aggressive until his emotional Dragons step forward and take on a reckless approach to the game. So how is it possible for the SPM to be winning for the year and receiving an hourly rate far beyond his personal qualification?
The answer lies in three important arenas they are luck, the release factor, and being able to prolong the always lurking statistical cleansing.
Luck;
Lady Luck likes her men tight and aggressive (T&A). The longer a player plays the T&A way, the greater the opportunity of having Lady Luck smile on the their chip accumulation endeavors. The harder the player works the T&A way, the luckier the player will seem to be. The SPM dated Lady Luck for one whole week and has been flirting with her all year.
Release Factor;
Releasing all inferior hands immediately is the greatest weapon used by players from the Valley of Patience (VoP). This is their offensive battle strategy, each release creates; less action for the other players and stress on the other players desire for action. The other players resent the Rock's continuos releasing of hands. They want action and the Rock deprives them of what they crave most. Stress is created with each release, the enemy is attached repeatedly with a barrage of release, release, release... The pressure builds within the other players. Then the right hand, in the right position, and Raise! says the Rock from the Valley! Players become trapped by the release of the pressure for action and they helplessly become calling stations. Payday for the Release Factor.
The Statistical Cleansing;
Avoiding a statistical cleansing is not possible, at sometime every poker player is systematically statistically cleansed. Like the Peggy Lee song about the doggy in the window. Poker players around the world sing that song with these words,
"How much is that cleansing in the window, the one that's lurking over there..."
The answer depends on how long a player can continue to release the junk and it's temptations. When the energy to release the rags is overwhelmed by the Dragon of Action. The beginning of a Statistical Cleansing maybe approaching.
The SPM, has been releasing but sometimes that Ax suited is so irresistible from early position. Q9 suited calls from BT and says play me up front, I think you'll like the results. The responsibilities of being the Mayor of A2CT, demands playing J10 off, Q10 off and any two rags suit from early position. Elections are always lurking and the residents of A2CT want their Mayor to be a regular A2CT player.
SPM,...grinding it out and fighting the Dragon of Action, the release factor is paying dividends, Mayor status maybe in jeapordy...
SPM,
What do you mean maybe in jeapordy?!?! If anyone had to feed off the amount of action you've given this year compared to past years, they would die of starvation.
Now its time to cut this *@#& out and go back to being the Mayor. Your constituency is beginning to lose faith here.
Just some thoughts...
Michael D. (Soccer/Sucker Mike D.)
In life when a man wants to live a pure life, free from the temptation he becomes a monk. The monks are respected and loved by the religious community.
When a man tries to live the life of a rock, and plays in the Valley of Patience. The poker community throw stones and stick pins in dolls. The rock is miss understood, and rejected by the action players.
SPM,...looking for a monastery on poker mountain...
P.S. Send no more than the best of the jokes not all of them, between you and Al I could never read that many, thanks.
Nicholas Regush produces medical features for ABCNEWS. In his weekly column, published Wednesdays, he looks at medical trouble spots, heralds innovative achievements and analyzes health trends that may greatly influence our lives.
Here is a column he wrote for ABCnews.com.
It is taking on the appearance of a mass slaughter. A drug induced-nightmare of unprecedented magnitude for many people who have tested HIV-positive.
They have strokes, heart attacks and suffer liver and kidney damage. They develop dangerously high cholesterol and diabetes. Some of them have suffered gross deformities.
All because of anti-HIV drugs, namely the nucleoside analogues and protease inhibitors that make up the so-called combination or cocktail therapies. A name more worthy of the toxic effects listed on the drug labels would be "medical poisons."
Also alarming is that many of those who develop these afflictions are symptom-free at the start. No sign of AIDS-related illnesses or infections. But because they turn up positive on an HIV antibody test, their doctors, following the herd, hit them "hard and early" with the cocktails. In fact, the major market targets for the makers of these drugs are those without symptoms.
Pretty smart marketing, considering that many doctors will keep their patients on the cocktails even when their bodies begin to be ravaged by side effects and even after hospitalization. This is, of course, in the hope that somehow a miracle turnaround will occur and HIV will be neutralized.
Yes, there are those chronically ill people with AIDS who have reportedly arisen from their death beds once given the anti-HIV therapy. And because so much has been made of this by the press and the HIV medical establishment, it has not been easy to assess what is really going on here.
Drugs Have Anti-Viral Potential
First, these types of drugs do indeed have some anti-viral potential and in some cases might even function like antibiotics. This means that some of the viral and bacterial infections that AIDS represents might be neutralized, if only for a short period of time, before the toxic effects of the drugs take hold.
Second, these drugs have been poorly tested and their short-term effect has been inadequately associated with an impact on HIV. It has been AIDS scientist David Ho’s ill-conceived contention that HIV replicates furiously in the body -- as measured by something called "viral load."
The drugs, he argued, could reduce this load, thus possibly neutralizing the virus. Unfortunately, the HIV viral load concept is a fantasy, if not a total absurdity. Using a tool to highly amplify what little remnants there might be of HIV in the blood, Ho has taken the grand leap to associate his approach as warranting early prescriptions of these highly toxic cocktails.
Because Time had the audacity to proclaim him "Man of the Year" in 1996, the press went wild in delivering messages of hope to those with AIDS. And on the basis of a handful of anecdotal cases of miraculous recoveries.
To date, there is still no study that any of these cocktails, separate or together can extend life. And contrary to those scientists who apparently still believe in the tooth fairy, there is no evidence that the use of these cocktails is related to the decline in AIDS deaths. Deaths due to AIDS were already declining in 1994, several years before the cocktails were shot out of a marketing cannon.
Now science must confront this ongoing travesty. Those in science and medicine who are perpetuating or condoning this passive genocide will one day be held accountable.
:-)
Life in the 1500's, something interesting to ponder.
Lead cups were used to drink ale or whiskey. The combination would sometimes knock them out for a couple of days. Someone walking along the road would take them for dead and prepare them for burial. They were laid out on the kitchen table for a couple of days and the family would gather around and eat and drink and wait and see if they would wake up. Hence the custom of holding a "wake."
England is old and small, and they started running out of places to bury people. So, they would dig up coffins and would take their bones to a house and reuse the grave. In reopening these coffins, one out of 25 coffins were found to have scratch marks on the inside and they realized they had been burying people alive. So they thought they would tie a string on their wrist and lead it through the coffin and up through the ground and tie it to a bell. Someone would have to sit out in the graveyard all night to listen for the bell. Hence on the "graveyard shift" they would know that someone was "saved by the bell" or he was a "dead ringer."
Most people got married in June because they took their yearly bath in May and were still smelling pretty good by June. However, they were starting to smell, so brides carried a bouquet of flowers to hide the b.o.
Baths equaled a big tub filled with hot water. The man of the house had t he privilege of the nice clean water, then all the other sons and men, then the women and finally the children. Last of all the babies. By then the water was so dirty you could actually lose someone in it. Hence the saying "Don't throw the baby out with the bath water."
Houses had thatched roofs. Thick straw, piled high, with no wood underneath. It was the only place for animals to get warm, so all the pets... dogs, cats and other small animals, mice, rats, bugs lived in the roof. When it rained it became slippery and sometimes the animals would slip and fall off the roof. Hence the saying, "It's raining cats and dogs."
There was nothing to stop things from falling into the house. This posed a real problem in the bedroom where bugs and other droppings could really mess up your nice clean bed. So, they found if they made beds with big posts and hung a sheet over the top, it addressed that problem. Hence those beautiful big 4 poster beds with canopies. I wonder if this is where we get the saying "Good night and don't let the bed bugs bite"...
The floor was dirt. Only the wealthy had something other than dirt, hence the saying "dirt poor." The wealthy had slate floors which would get slippery in the winter when wet. So they spread thresh on the floor to help keep their footing. As the winter wore on they kept adding more thresh until when you opened the door it would all start slipping outside. A piece of wood was placed at the entry way, hence a "thresh hold."
They cooked in the kitchen in a big kettle that always hung over the fire. Every day they lit the fire and added things to the pot. They mostly ate vegetables and didn't get much meat. They would eat the stew for dinner eaving leftovers in the pot to get cold overnight and then start over the next day. Sometimes the stew had food in it that had been in there for a month. Hence the rhyme: peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold, peas porridge in the pot nine days old."
Sometimes they could obtain pork and would feel really special when that happened. When company came over, they would bring out some bacon and hang it to show it off. It was a sign of wealth and that a man "could really bring home the bacon." They would cut off a little to share with guests and would all sit around and "chew the fat."
Those with money had plates made of pewter. Food with a high acid content caused some of the lead to leach onto the food. This happened most often with tomatoes, so they stopped eating tomatoes...for 400 years.
Most people didn't have pewter plates, but had trenchers - a piece of wood with the middle scooped out like a bowl. Trenchers were never washed and a lot of times worms got into the wood. After eating off wormy trenchers, they would get "trench mouth."
Bread was divided according to status. Workers got the burnt bottom of The loaf, the family got the middle, and guests got the top, or the "upper crust."
:-)
I only just now saw Ratso's post on a wine discovery he'd made. It's already getting buried, so I'll try starting a new thread. I've tried a lot of California reds, mostly in the relitively affordable, but not totally unrespectable price range of about $10 to $25. I stick with Califronia wines as a token gesture of "buying American". I won't get into trying to descibe anything with wine tasters' terminology. But I like those that are relatively complex, full bodied, and "drinkable". Anyway here, in no particular order, are what I think are a few of the best values in that range:
1. Ravenswood. Any of their Zinfandels, starting with their "Vintner's Blend" at about 11 bucks. Can't go wrong here at all.
2. Marrietta Old Vine Red. A mix. Only about 10 bucks or so. A great everyday table wine.
3. Preston Faux. Also about $10 I think, a nice value. It's a California copy of the Rhone style mixes. (He says, as if he knows what he's talking about.)
4. Zingaro zinfandel. Just something I currently like.
5. If you're *really on a budget, there's a little mix called "Reds" with a picture of Mao on the cork. It's up to about $8 or so now, but is still better than most at that price. (I used to get it for about $4, where it was truly a great value.)
Of course if you move up into the thirties and higher you can find the truly superb wines. But that can get a little expensive for those of us who don't play the 20k-40k game.
... I'm tired and didn't spell check.
No Fold'em- Dreyer Sonoma 1998 Cabernet about $12-$15; Wente Livermore 1997 Cab $12; Fetzer always a good medium-end bet, try the 1997 North Coast Cab if you can find it for under 15 bucks
Mid Limits- Claudia Springs 1998 Pinot Noir $18-$20; Kendall-Jackson 1997 Vintner's Reserve Cabernet $18;
I will definitely try ratso's recomendation. I'm not sure I'm going to try anything with Mao on the cork.
One of my favorites, around $20, is Robert Mondavi Napa Valley Chardonnay (NOT the Coastal Chardonnay).
Another is Edgewood Cabernet Sauvignon and Merlot. Around $15.
I've found that more expensive wines are not always better, at least to my working man's palate.
Here are some moderately expensive ($30-$60 limits) California wines that are worth it, imo:
Silverado 1997 Merlot, about $35-$40.
Acacia 1997 St. Clair Carneros Pinot Noir, $50
Robert Mondavi 1998 Napa Reserve Pinot Noir, $50
Geyser Peak 1997 Reserve Alexander Valley Cabernet, $40
That Silverado is a monster. Excellent. I have 1 left. Pepperwood Grove merlot (1997)....cheap 6.99 and amazing. Sorry I did not get a case
Wines are so suited to individual tastes. I had a 98 Ravenswood Zin that was so bad it had to be poured out! Leaves you with that feeling like when you went to the restaurant and got food poisoning and now will never go back...
Now I gotta put my own tastes on the line. And being a starving student, we're talking fairly cheap.
1. 99 Rosemount Shiraz. 11 bucks, and very drinkable.
2. 99 Cambria Katherine's Chardonnay. I got this for $16, and it is the best white wine I've ever had.
3. 98 Gallo of Sonoma Merlot. 10ish. Nice, but takes a long time to breathe.
4. 99 E. Guigal Rose. Most pink wines suck. Bad. I snagged this one on rec. from winespectator.com (they gave it a 90), and it didn't disappoint.
Enjoy!
Bill
I'm guessing you just got a bad bottle or something. Individual tastes vary, but I think it's generally really tough to find a Ravenswood zin that many people would truly dislike. Here's a link from a quick search I did on it:
http://www.winemonthclub.com/newsletters/winev1n12.htm
Mailman was retiring and he got all these wonderful gifts from the people on his route. He came to this one house and the woman met him wearing a see through teddy. She take him up stairs has sex with him and then takes him down stairs and makes him breakfast. Just as he is finishing she gives him a cup of coffee and it has a dollar bill under the cup. He asked what was up the the dollar and she told him that she and her husband were talking the night before and she mentioned that mailman was retiring and everyone in the neighborhood was getting him a gift. so i asked husband what they should give you and he said fuck him give him a dollar, she said the breakfast was my idea.
nt
Maybe it's just the wine, but LOL.
Hi Mason,
I noticed your latest add for "The Two Plus Two Forum" in Card Player(p.41). I liked it, especially the listing of recent topics directly related to poker strategy & theory to give people a taste of what they can expect. But I was wondering, now that R.P.G.(now Google)has lost about 90% of their poker-forum participants, maybe they can be coaxed over here by listing some of the more gossipy natured discussions found here on the "Other Topics" forum, such as:
(1) What ever happened to LadyGambler, and was she really a man?
(2) Badger, what an A-hole!
(3) How can I get that Sklansky character to respond to any of my questions?
(4) Con Men Hucksters Can't Handle TRUTH!!!(by Doug Grant[t.m.])
(5) "Big-Breasted Women." I like 'em, how 'bout you?
(6) etc....
"topics directly related to poker strategy & theory "
Maybe you missed that this is The "Other Topics" forum. Subjects dealing with poker do not belong here. Please put this on the appropriate forum or rgp if you like. Anonymous clowns are always welcome there.
vince
Did you read every other word of his post, you're as bad as Rounder. Learn to read!
"Learn to read!"
Shove it!
Vince
Funny list, except I would change the Doug Grant one to:
(4)Com Men Hucksters from Outer Space Knocked Up My Dog.
-Marjorie
zzz
I know you're just kidding, but what did ever happen to Lady Gambler? I forgot all about her. I miss those cat fights she used to get into with everybody.
how many single guys iron their clothes?
i left my clothes in the dryer (for a week) and now theyre really wrinkled, but hey, im a single guy, who cares.
brad
Are you talking about your sweatpants and t-shirts?
those dont wrinkle, which is why i wear them a lot.
sometimes i 'vary my play' and wear like docker pants and a long sleeve nice shirt (that i usually roll the sleeves up).
im thinking i should just stick to sweat pants and t shirts. (when i had a live in girlfriend i looked a lot beter)
brad
.
If I posted it, John F would buy them all up.
You got that right, baby. AC/DC, Judas Priest (If hell had a jukebox it would play Judas Priest)...I want those Tee-shirts. My Blue Oyster Cult shirt is getting a little dated. (But don't fear the reaper.)
PS Why do my free associations seem to gravitate more toward the satanic groups?
vv
(n/t)
i left my clothes in the dryer (for a week) and now theyre really wrinkled
no problemo. Take a small towel and dampen it. Throw it in the dryer with the wrinkled clothes and run it for 15 minutes. Viola, no more wrinkles....
.
In Priority Order:
1. "Wrong Forum Vince" is a bad, bad idea. The wrong guy in the wrong job. I still want the original WRONG FORUM MAN back. Where is he?
2. Hosh's Tip Of the Week has not been seen for a couple weeks now. Mason---are you paying these people minimum wage, or what?
3. Ray Zee's new Essay has capital letters and punctuation in it. This makes it very hard to follow his thoughts.
4. Can't be in L.V. for the April 20th presentation and Q&A session at the Mirage. Can someone make a bootleg videotape of this event for me? Maybe we'll make copies and sell them.
Abe
1. vince is better than nothing 2. once his tips got good we lost him 3. its like putting on a clean shirt for a funeral 4. make one for me.
1. vince is better than nothing
I demand a recount!
vince
i didnt say how much better than nothing. that leaves a whole lot of room for you.
Guess who's retired? 8:42a.m. EST = 6:42a.m. MST. The only reason any of the other posters would be up at that time would be after they were out all night playing poker.
i get up when the light comes thru the window and go to bed after jay leno's monolog,10:30 here.
Farmer Zee rises in the east and sets in the west. You sure it isn't the Cockatoo Kackling All In at the sight of the Sun****
From Portland ME, viewing a 907 Coast Guard Cutter from DiMillo's Floating Restaurant 25 Long Wharf. Food, Bars, Banks, and of course lobstermen everywhere. If you are a bricklayer this is the place to be all brick buildings, cobblestone roadways.
The Full Moon is rising on the ocean. Never been here before but I'll be back for some "Rack & Roll" to dance with Destiny.
pf
"i get up when the light comes thru the window "
Are you singing shine on shine on harvest moon when you get up? I'm just curious whether that half moon on the door that let's the light in influences your mood or not.
vince
http://www.twoplustwo.com/cgi-bin/mediumholdem.pl?read=12792
3 Bet Brett is right again----as usual.
Hosh's Tips of the Week are on the "Archives" for the Medium Stakes Forum. He has a good one from Monday March 5, and a GREAT one from Monday Feb 26th.
I actually met Hosh the last time I was at Bellagio. He seemed a smart, interesting, very friendly person. We talked about poker, computers, etc. He even took me up on the "terrace" and introduced me (the tourist) to a couple other people. What a great guy.
I'll be looking for his "Tip of the Week" tomorrow-Monday.
"Hosh...What a great guy. "
I agree!
Vince
"The wrong guy in the wrong job."
Hallelujah!
Memphis 29 Chicago 23
Don't call XFL football boring. That game was QUALITY FOOTBALL! (Well, Chicago's defense sucks, but it was a great game.)
nt
Did you really call that guy stupid? I saw a post in which you addressed him as "Hey, Stupid," but that's not quite the same as calling him stupid. Take him on in the SAT, yell out "Hey, Stupid," and when he glances your way, scream "Made you look." That should discombobulate him.
Of course, I might have missed a post in which you actually did call him stupid.
John
John, you seem to be catching on to internet style reasoning just perfectly.
PS: Now don't go saying that I said you had caught on to internet style reasoning. I SAID NO SUCH THING, YOU BLOCKHEAD!!! ;)
Sounds more like the reasoning of a certain ex-poster whose posts were deleted.
"Did you really call that guy stupid? "
No! Well, maybe. But I didn't mean it. I guess. Well, maybe. I don't like it when someone I don't know calls me names. So Sometimes I take offense. So maybe I called him a name. O.K so I did call him stupid. Maybe I was wrong. He may not be stupid. I mean now how would I know if he is stupid. So I was just guessing. Maybe he's real smart. After all he took a SAT once and apparently done good. So he mussa be not stupid. I guess. So If I get to talk to him again I guess I better be careful about what I call him. Hell, if I call him stupid again he may challenge me to a... duel. Then I would be in big trouble because I would have to choose the weapons. I doubt if handkerchiefs tied aroud the little pinky at fifty paces would come anywhere near an English SAT challenge. Close, but not quite on the same level. But it's the only thing that I'm good at. Dear me, what am I do do?
Vince
Vince,
What are you to do? Hell, what am I to do? Some anonymous poster calling himself John F. called me a "BLOCKHEAD." In all caps, no less.
John
"BLOCKHEAD."
If the BLOCK fits....
Vince
Come on, man, I'm trying run the same demonstration here that Vince has been running on rgp. It's performance art, kinda. But it doesn't seem to take here the way it does there. Anyway, if you don't like "blockhead", I may be forced to bring out the heavy artillery ('zat spelled right? Somebody flame me for my spelling!), Mr. Poopy!
Mr. She-Jazz
John,
Now you have struck the mortal blow: Mr. Poopy, indeed. Watch out there, fella, or I may be forced to respond in kind. I have my book of Shakespearean insults ready, but I far too civilized for that, Mr. Pop Psycholoologist, Men are from Penis, I'm Okay, but You're a Pain in the A**.
You and Karen Finley can keep your performance art. Hmmm, Finley? What is it with those six letter names beginning with an F and ending with a Y? What do those two letters call to mind? Sorry, can't think of it right now.
John
What happened to word of the century and milenium? I can't wait to find out the reasoning on that one.
Rick
Rick,
Below I explained that before "she," English had only the word "seo," the pronoun for women. Until "she" was coined, no pronoun existed which indicated one woman although "he" already existed. The panel thought that "jazz" was the most important word coined in the 20th century. I think "jazz" is a pretty good choice. I don't have the link handy, but the selections were made by the American Dialect Society.
John
why would modernbride advertise on 2 + 2 forum...how many posters on this forum are likely to become brides in the next year...that 2 + 2 executives (Mason?) could actually sell advertising to such an unlikely prospect....it means you all really are wasting your time with poker and should have MBA's and be senior executive vice presidents in Fortune 50 corps...gl
Release, release, release, with great regularity the SPM spent most of his Saturday releasing cards into the muck. Should someone ask how was your Saturday? The answer would be it was a winning day. The amazing thing is trying to remember the winning hands, they escaped the mind of the SPM. Memories lost in the corner of the SPM's mind, memories of winning hands lost in the barrage of released hands. The reality of this dilemma is when you play in the Valley of Patience (VoP) you play a tight & aggressive game. Tight must mean release, and aggressive must mean raise.
Raise, when did the SPM say that glorious word, that creates fear in the hearts of the hold'em enemies? The game was ok nothing to brag about. But six hours of release, release, release where's the glory, the war stories, the bad beat stories, heck there all lost in the mind of the SPM.
It was early in the game and the SPM was in release mode. He had been as much as one and a half stacks up. Then just a quarter of a stack up, yo yo poker. The SPM's eyes were heavy and he required rest. The night before had been movie night with the Mrs., and the SPM got a good nights sleep. So why the heavy eyes? Another mystery but no time to delve into that mystery today. The action required was transcendental meditation. The SPM put on his meditation glasses that look a lot like sun glasses, you know the kind that has a mirror on the outside, and sight on the inside.
The SPM took an easy chair in the high limit room at Harrah's Casino, East Chicago, IN. He closed his eyes and began his mantra tight & aggressive, tight & aggressive, then REM. Twenty minuets into REM and the SPM, feels the touch of a security guards hand and his voice, " no sleeping in the Casino Sir." The SPM opened his eyes behind the one way meditation glasses and assured the Casino Cop he wasn't sleeping, just taking a break from the poker game. The Cop leaves. Within five minutes the SPM is back in REM, twenty minutes later the Casino Cop returns, "no sleeping in the Casino sir," he tells the a waking SPM. "I wasn't sleeping the SPM says to the sleep police." "Sir, your head was bobbing." snapped the Casino Cop. The SPM now rested, returned to the game to reestablish his release mode.
And so it went hour after hour, release, release, release, no one said playing in the VoP was going to be fun and exciting. Winning is your only reward, and if you can't remember how you won well better luck next time.
SPM,...another winning week, and no memory of saying RAISE...
.
:-)
Join David and Mason for a question and answer session on Friday, April 20 from 3:00pm to 4:30pm in the St. Kitts room at The Mirage
:-)
SPAM,
S&M must of got in some new leather so they couldn't answer my ??????????????????????????
ns
The peasants of each House of the Royal Flushes, tilled or tilted the territories they lived. The House of the Nines ruled as landlords in some territories. Peasants fighting together and making incredible wins on the battle field, in the land of Hold'em, are beyond belief. The tales of the 9 & 7 winning a big one during the "Any Suit Will Do Battle" are still told to baby twin dues before they enter the battle field for the first time on a new frontier.
The peasants tilled or tilt, plus they had many responsible positions, with members of the Court of the Royal Flushes. The Q & 7 of any, brain stormed like two networked computers. The J and the son 5 became the hottest band in all the Kingdoms, of the Courts of the Royal Flushes. The King Eight and when it suited him, the King Eight threw the battle field like hot knife thru butter. When the Queen Eight, she could always go straight, to the deserts.
The peasants knew they would never rule in the land of Hold'em for any substantial period of time. The Courts of the Royal Flushes were to mighty a force to be dominate. However, the peasants strength was in their numbers, and they could cause random persecution. Even in the 21st century, in the land of Hold'em, the gaming battle field is plagued with Random Persecution.
"I hate pocket aces!" says the battered and beaten hold'em player. "They always beat me with rags, I never get a break." he adds. Warning Sign! Danger Will Robinson danager! You have entered the first stage of "Random Persecution." Should you notice players around you, begging to change seats with other players, this is Warning Sign # Two. Random Persecution, we all have seen it, felt it, tasted it, lived with it, and would like to never see it again.
SPM,...my eyes are closed and I won't open them again until the persecution of my chips stop...
>>><<<
This is an open forum for other topics. Suburban Poker Man always lists his name. Please feel free NOT to read any of his posts.BUT many of us do enjoy reading them.
Thanks for sharing your Feeeeeeeeelings Toni.
maybe there is too much truth there for you, earl...denial is not just a river in egypt...many top players live to click onto the further adventures of the mighty SPM...go you mighty SPM...
scalf wrote: "maybe there is too much TRUTH there for you", and then something about "denial."
Hi scalf, my aunt worked as a nurse in a mental institution for about 27 years, and she used to tell me how the patients favorite two words to use were "truth" and "denial", but especially the word "truth." [They are also two of Doug Grant's favorite words to throw around.] The more paranoid the patient, the more likely you are to hear those words. I get the creeps when I hear people use those words in the way you used them, but of course a mental patient would just tell me, "That's because I can't handle 'TRUTH.'
-Randy
Earl Ward,
Thanks for taking the time to read my post. So sorry that your first read was babble and not intertaining. I use 2+2 for my on sanity, not all my thoughts come to the surface as I would like, some I guess are babble. Should you find my next post as bad a as this babble, you might want to skip the rest. I will dedicate my next post to you.
SPM,...play long and prosper...
.
sell me some of that stuff you're doin'.......
sell me some of that stuff you're doin'.......
It's called a Statistical Cleansing, I'll send a pound or two to you. Send me your poker address.
SPM,...play long and prosper...
`
Your post is one of the clearer explanations of Morton's Theorem I have seen.
Regards.
Okay, I begged, bribed, cajoled (you guys do not want to know what this entailed, trust me) my husband into agreeing I can take off a few days to go play poker. Now all the tourneys are happening at the end of March, I know. But where to go now? Foxwoods? Vegas? AC? I want to try California, but am a bit wary as I have not been there before.
Please respond with where you think the best action is next week.
thanks, desire
P.S. florida is out, i hear they got rabid gators there
Come to LV and look for a young fat guy in the Bellagio 30-60's picking off all Mason's raises.
JG
lurked your website last nite and enjoyed it...still married?...gl
Yep. Maybe I should update the pictures to reflect the ongoing bliss, but just add 25 pounds to both of us from the wed pix and you got an idea. Access logs don't reveal a high correlation between poker letters surfing and wedding pix viewing. Surprisingly. You must be 1Cust112.tnt9.denver2.co.da.uu.net or speedway.autobahn.mb.ca or you were on after midnight eastern.
JG
I'll be in AC. It has been said that a game with me in it is a good game. See you.
vince
Was hoping to run into you again at Foxwoods sometime soon. Come on down almost any Tuesday night, and you'll find me.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hey Vince, I'll be in AC this weekend for my birthday, and I'll probably be taking my shot at 10-20 (even though u advised against) at the Trop, but I'll mostly be playing 5-10. Just wondering where you'll be playing and what games, maybe I can buy you a drink or something. If I don't see you, I hope you rake in the cash.
Jeff
Hey Jeff, lets page Vince from the podium. That's how we'll find him. I'll be there too. I think Vince stays under the boardwalk. Let's ask him. I owe him $5. I have been staying out of his way.
LA is where the action is all the time. You haven't played poker until you have played there. Choose from the Commerce, Bike, Hollywood Park, or Hawaiian Gardens. Or slum it at the Normandie. You probably won't have enough time to play all the poker LA has to offer.
tunica, baby jack binion is building a tourney destined to overtake WSOP...gl
yeah, Jack McClelland told me about the tourney. But that isn't happening until the end of march. I need action now now now now now.
The week/weekend from the 14-21,AC will be the place to be. The summer between Memorial day and Labor day,AC is the place to go. Naturally in the cold monmths except for this week, LV is probably the place. Other places are lame.
Desire,
Considering I'm going to be in Vegas the 16-19 of March with 30 guys for a bachelor party I would think the best action is going to be there.
"Rook"
Nuh uh! I dun told ya at the tables. You're WAY too fertile, darlin'.
Bring him to Hollywood Desire. The action is so hot they melted my days bank roll in 2 1/2 hours on Sunday.
SPM,...also looking for the action...
.
Sorry to say that the action at Foxwoods won't be great until the tourneys actually start on 3/28. Maybe a day or 2 in advance, but probably not, given that the 28th is a Wednesday. The action will really heat up by that Friday, I'm sure.
Most of the year, the regular limit games at Foxwoods just aren't that great.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hope this helps.
http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/mark/tournpicks09.htm
Rounder,
Thanks so much for the tournament webpage. It helped greatly. I had forgotten about Canterbury Park in Minnesota. Thanks again, luv.
anyone order anthing from modernbide.com yet?....
:-)
Subject: You thought you knew everything??
1. Rubber bands last longer when refrigerated. 2. Peanuts are one of the ingredients of dynamite. 3. There are 293 ways to make change for a dollar. 4. The average person's left hand does 56% of the typing. 5. A shark is the only fish that can blink with both eyes. 6. There are more chickens than people in the world. 7. Two-thirds of the world's eggplant is grown in New Jersey. 8. The longest one-syllable word in the English language is "screeched." 9. On a Canadian two dollar bill, the flag flying over the Parliament building is an American flag. 10. All of the clocks in the movie "Pulp Fiction" are stuck on 4:20. 11. No word in the English language rhymes with month, orange, silver, or purple. 12. "Dreamt" is the only English word that ends in the letters "mt." 13. All 50 states are listed across the top of the Lincoln Memorial on the back of the $5 bill. 14. Almonds are a member of the peach family. 15. Winston Churchill was born in a ladies' room during a dance. 16. Maine is the only state whose name is just one syllable. 17. There are only four words in the English language which end in "dous" tremendous, horrendous, stupendous, and hazardous. 18. Los Angeles' full name is "El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora la Reina de los Angeles de Porciuncula" 19. A cat has 32 muscles in each ear. 20. An ostrich's eye is bigger than its brain. 21. Tigers have striped skin, not just striped fur. 22. In most advertisements, the time displayed on a watch is 10:10. 23. Al Capone's business card said he was a used furniture dealer. 24. The characters Bert and Ernie on Sesame Street were named after Bert the cop and Ernie the taxi driver in Frank Capra's "It's a Wonderful Life." 25. A dragonfly has a life span of 24 hours. 26. A goldfish has a memory span of three seconds. 27. A dime has 118 ridges around the edge. 28. It's impossible to sneeze with your eyes open. 29. The giant squid has the largest eyes in the world. 30. In England, the Speaker of the House is not allowed to speak. 31. The microwave was invented after a researcher walked by a radar tube and a chocolate bar melted in his pocket. 32. Mr.Rogers is an ordained minister. 33. The average person falls asleep in seven minutes. 34. There are 336 dimples on a regulation golf ball. 35. "Stewardesses" is the longest word that is typed with only the left hand. NOW YOU KNOW EVERYTHING!
For number 9 the flag on top of Parliament is not the U.S. flag although this is a common misconception because it does look like the U.S. flag. A few years ago there was a little controversy up here about it. So some guy from the Canadian Mint came on TV and explained it. If you look at it from a magnifying glass you can see it's not the U.S, flag. I can't remember exactly what flag it is but I think it is some sort of English military flag. Although there are so few two dollar bills now that I don't even have one to look at.
"10. All of the clocks in the movie "Pulp Fiction" are stuck on 4:20."
explains the Amsterdam references in the Movie.
You CAN sneeze with your eyelids open! You can I say! You just have to hold them open...he he. If you watch someone perform this feat, their eyes will roll back in their head every time.
When you say, "You just have to hold them open." I assume you mean with your fingers?
Yes, sorry about that, thumbs and forefingers. I should proof read my stuff more carefully.
what about "scratched"and "thrashed"?
The Randy Ferbey rink from Alberta upsets pre-tournament favorites Ontario and Manitoba to win the Brier. Fabulous tournament, with circus shots aplenty. Huge TV numbers as always, and all the sets in the poker room glued to the action throughout the week.
Just so the 'Mericans get some sort of how big curling is in Canada: we have a provincial election here today to determine our government for the next 4-5 years. Front Page above the fold on the Edmonton Journal this morning: five columns with big color picture "Clean sweep to victory" headline. Provincial election got one column off to the side.
I can hear the mocking already, but just remember this. Curling is an Olympic sport, the XFL isn't. Out.
I currently live in washington state but luckily we get CBC. I was able to watch my Manitoba team lose. That shot the Alberta skip made in the 4th end killed Manitoba. Not sure if we should have tried that triple takeout in the 9th end.
Curling rules,
Ken Poklitar
Give Burtnyk credit for trying it, though. He's played these guys enough on the Tour to know that one down coming home without the hammer is very slim odds, too. Lord knows Kerry made enough big shots during the week. You wouldn't have seen them as the games were on TSN, but he made an angle triple raise double for five mid-week against Quebec that was unbelievable.
Burtnyk's team talked him into trying a shot he didn't want to try. He even termed it a "Hail Mary".
Still, they should have had the Brier in Alberta. Then when the pigeon started flying around, half the audience would have pulled out hunting rifles and that would have been the end for Mr Pigeon.
David "As long as CockyBoy Middaugh lost, Im happy" Ottosen
nt
Somewhere someone on this forum said that there is an RGP thread describing this monster game at the Bellagio where Ted Forrest is destroying some rich guy from Texas head up.
Does anybody know the date and title of this thread? I tried looking but couldn't find it.
Regards,
Rick
Rick
Look in the High Stakes forum for thread called "Huge game at Bellagio today 3/7", posted 3/7 (duh). Does not mention Ted Forrest, but does talk of a game at that limit with Chip Reese.
KJS
The Dallas banker lost close to 6 million. Ted Forrest walked away with 2.5 million.
There were 2 threads on this.
1)$10,000.-$20,000. HE at Bellagio dated 3/8
2)Question for Razzo: $10K-$20K Hold em game dated 3/10
The first one eventually got around to the 20K-40K discussion.
Randy Collack
So I opened my big mouth the other day to a friend. I said just off the top of my (verysmall) brain... I'll bet you W gets reelected, he's a shoe in! My friend disagreed and then asked me what odds I would give him. So I just said 4 to 1 without thinking. Thats not right is it? how would we figure? thank you
dumber
To soon to tell but I am no expert on political bets I lost $2k in 1992 betting against a failed, lying, draft dodging, adultering sleazy governor from a small southern state would bead a WWII war hero and decent man.
In this age of lies and spin it is never a good idea to bet on the outcome of an election where such a stupid ignorant population have the vote.
I lost when a coke snorting, deserter, alcoholic, English illiterate, spoiled mama's boy used his fathers intelligence contacts to steal the election over a war veteran and decent man. I agree with Rounder's assessment of the typical voter.
You forgot that the deserter, coke head, mama's boy is also sleazy.
No, the whole country lost when that happened.
Well I'll take Bush anyday over the lying pack of democrats running in the last 3 elections. Bush may have the odd moment during public speaking but you have absolutely no proof of any of the other lies you just spouted about him - where as clinton is a "documented" coke user and draft dodger.
Bush has an honorable discharge and algor has his problems with his "short" Nam tour.
Bush did not report for duty for 18 months after he was grounded fro being drunk. His father arranged a discahrge in lieu of a court martial for desertion. It's the truth. Look it up. He acknowledges that he is an alcoholic. He refuses to answer questions about cocaine(the press assumes that he did lots of it). Florida is still being investigated. Al Gore honorably served in Vietnam and did his 13 month tour. Youn are delusional.
As for your bullshit about Bush military record it is more bullshit pure and simple - you fucking democrats like to take a clerical error and make it into a crime where as you have has the most corrupt man in office clinton in the histoyr of this country and think nothing of it.
We know what Roger Clinton said about his brother and there were many witnesses to his coke use but with no proof you condem Bush as a drug addict - more bullshit.
He has a drinking problem "SO THE FUCK WHAT" who hasen't had a problem - he has won his battle so far.
You pricks on the left give me a major pain in the ass.
I feel sorry for you.
and I DON'T feel sorry for you.
More delusions froma delusional lost soul. You rfather and those sisters simply made you a ruined man.
More delusions from a delusional lost soul. Your father and those sisters simply made you a ruined man.
you dispicable pinko commie, we finally have a President who acts like one and you rail and bitch about him, foaming of the mouth "lies" from you!~ demented liberal farce excuse for human being swarming in your own excrement of fantasy, denials and lies 'the parties over punk' you lose G.W. won, schools out.
Bush acts like a retard who flunked kindergarten. Cheney is running the day to day. This country has not been under more internal peril since the civil war. Bush is totally incompetent.Of course, people who like "jack-n-boots" will like a dictatorship. That's what we are living under:an unelected dictator who can't speak in complete sentences.
same ol' song and dance from defeated(deflated)Prozac depraved liberals, only dictactor here is YOU being a prisoner of your own libera-dical rhetoric (backwash) drivel.
You may all just laugh this off, but I know someone who went to school with W and did cocaine with him. I'll put my "good reputation" on the line, for whatever that's worth.
Bush will have the power of the incumbency, but his foreign policy( which basically wants a return to cold war status-and war-(this is designed solely to line the pockets of his backers), and his reckless domestic budget(according to Rubin, and Volcker) will leave the prosperity of the last 10 years in a hole that may take 20 years to overcome. The man is the most corrupt , buffoon to ever take office.
nt
I am not getting involved this time........
4 years in presidential politics is a lifetime so figuring these odds is tough but what you'd need to consider (in my opinion) is the following:
--where you think the economy will be (regardless of whether it is rooted in fact Presidents get blamed for the status of the economy or praised for it, ask Bush Sr. and Clinton) --What you think will have happened with the big three issues Bush campaigned on, tax cuts, entitlement reform, and education reform. He needs to get credit for at least 2 out of 3 of these to build a strong record to run on. And also other accomplishments he'll be able to point to. --whether Bush can make inroads with African-Americans, Hispanics, and/or indpendent voters over the next 3 years. If he can really get a toe hold with these groups, watch out. --The potential strength of the Democratic field, Evan Bayh, John Kerry, Joe Lieberman, John Edwards, Dick Gephardt, Tom Daschle, Tom Vilsack, Gray Davis, and of course, Al Gore have all dipped their toes in the water one way or another already, how formidable could any of them be? --The intangibles that can change the political landscape, war, national crisis of some sort, some cathartic national experience etc...hard to quantify this but important. --The power of incumbancy. This is huge and can swing a close race, so if you think it won't be close, discount this, if you think it will, it's a factor.
All in all, I'd say it's about even money right now. Bush has some good things going for him (not the least of which is congressional redistricing which will help Republicans)but also some potentially big time liabilities. I'd be relucatant to wager either way for at least a little while longer, until the mid-term 2002 elections shape up. 4-1 might end up being right, it's just too soon to know.
The SPM took yesturday off, so he could lick his wounds from Sundays Statistical Cleansing.
SPM,...enjoy the post from the Chairman...
Subj: UA Handles "The Irate Customer" Date: 3/9/01 10:43:48 PM Central Standard Time From: feeney4@mediaone.net (John M. Feeney) To: MichaelD8@aol.com (D, Michael)
For all of you out there who've had to deal with an irate customer, this one is for you. An award should go to the United Airlines gate agent in Denver for being smart and funny, and making her point, when confronted with a passenger who probably deserved to fly as baggage.
A crowded United flight was canceled. A single agent was rebooking a long line of inconvenienced travelers. Suddenly an angry passenger pushed his way to the desk. He slapped his ticket down on the counter and said, "I HAVE to be on this flight and it has to be FIRST CLASS."
The agent replied, "I'm sorry, sir. I'll be happy to try to help you, but I've got to help these folks first, and I'm sure we'll be able to work something out."
The passenger was unimpressed. He asked loudly, so that the passengers behind him could hear, "Do you have any idea who I am?"
Without hesitating, the gate agent smiled and grabbed her public address microphone. "May I have your attention please?" she began, her voice bellowing throughout the terminal. "We have a passenger here at the gate WHO DOES NOT KNOW WHO HE IS. If anyone can help him find his identity, please come to the gate."
With the folks behind him in line laughing hysterically, the man glared at the United agent, gritted his teeth and swore, "F*** you!"
Without flinching, she smiled and said, "I'm sorry, sir, but you'll have to stand in line for that, too!"
nt
Anybody read Card Player? If so you probably know that Lou Krieger is a poker writer that claims to know something about poker. I've read some of his stuff. I've even bouthg his Hold'em excellance book. I sent it to my son when I found it was a good beginner's book.
I have never had any correspodance with this feelow before in my life. Never met him. Yet he felt it necessary to add his sarcastic two cents to a very inflammatory thread I was involved in up on rgp. I mention this only as evidence that Badger is blindly respected by many in the poker community. Krieger's entrance into the foray with his sly little attack on me is further evidence that I am corret. I wonder if Badger called him and Lee Munzer and asked if they would help him because I am such a formidable opponent. I believe they agreed to do thia along with Badger wife Peggy Smith in an effort to knock me from my highly held position here on 2 + 2.
I beg all of you please do not fall for this chicanery. I am still desereving of your worship. Do not let the Munzer's and Krieger's of the world destroy your beautiful thoughts of this most wonderful treasure, Me.
Seriously, as Badger would say when he was trying to make things real that were'nt, I responded to Badger's cesspool remarks because I felt he was listened to by too many in the poker world. Looks good for my side. Thanks, Lou Krieger!
Vince
Vince,
I sort of noticed that your side over there at that other place seems to be comprised of you. Now, how many RGPers does it take to handle you? Most of them?
I always keep three Biblical quotes ready:
1. "Tis better to dwell in the desert than live with an angry and contentious woman"." (Mary really likes this one!)
2. "Don't kick against the pricks." Ah, what the hell--keep kicking.
3. "Like a dog to its vomit, a fool returneth to his folly." Feel free to use this one against one of your targets.
BTW, Lou Kreiger is a friend of Rick's, and I'm sure if he's Rick's friend, he usually a decent guy.
Exactly how many people have you called an asshole over there?
Some people may be getting the wrong impression about you Vince, but we (me, at least) still think of you as a "most wonderful treasure."
John
"Exactly how many people have you called an asshole over there?
I do't know exactly. But I am finished over there so I guess I didn't call enough of them assholes because I have'nt got using "asshole" down pat yet.i wonder if Fortunately Bob and Neal another asshole or two have responded here so I can gain more experience. I hope Bob and Neal are not really Badger cause I already called him an asshole and then they wouldn't count.
Vince
.
a good poker player and a good guy....
JG
"a good poker player and a good guy.... "
Jim,
This is beautiful. It is exactly the way I would respond if someone I felt was a good guy was attacked the way I went after Krieger. I feel very good about my previous apology to you now. Your defense of Krieger and the manner in which you voiced it is in my opinion admirable.
Unfortunately I do not have the same opinion of Kriger that you do. I hope you can understand my view of Krieger. The only time I have had any dealings with this guy is via his response in the 2 + 2 cesspool thread on rgp. His remarks were no big deal. They were cute and on the money. But they were made in an inflammatory thread. A very disgusting inflammatory thread. And they were made towards me. He gave a bunch of "assholes" more amunition to throw my way. So excuse me if I put him in the Badger, Carson et, al camp but thatis how I view this guy. He 's as much a terd as Badger and Munzer as far as I'm concerned.
But I thank you for taking the time to honestly express your poin of view. Especially without a personal negative attack towards me.
Vince
...what the heck has got into you lately over there?
Anyway, I think I found the one post on RGP where "Lou" got involved in your thread. It seemed to involve grammar and didn't attack you directly. Since I need help with grammar, I keep John Cole as an advisor on this forum and Lou Krieger as my advisor when I post on RGP. Believe me, Lou is just as good a guy as John and visa versa.
I'm pretty sure you are a good guy based on reports from my Foxwood spies but I must say I can't fathom why you got involved in all that BS over there, unless that snowstorm back East was so bad that you got a little crazy.
My advice would be to stick to strategy posts for the most part. BTW, my Hero quoted you on the Medium Limit Holdem Forum a couple days ago and you didn't even respond. She was really hurt. Spend more time over here and be a Hero to my Hero.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
I'm a little surprised at your response.
"...what the heck has got into you lately over there? "
Maybe I'm misreading you but this sure seems more like a statement than a question. Apparently you feel that I'm the bad guy in this whole mess. Interesting but not surprising given some of the comments I made over on rgp. But since you seem to have made up your mind that Krieger was in the right and I was off base with my responses "over there" plus maybe the whole mess was my doing I see no reason to explain myself.
Vince,
What I meant is “What do you expect to gain by getting into extended arguments over there?” I haven't followed the whole thread in detail (and time won't permit) but it is a given that there are some on RGP that just don't like 2+2 and this sort of thing won't change it. OTOH, if I heard I was directly attacked I might respond once or twice but when you get into an extended name calling “diatribe” (John Cole, is that the right word?), it doesn't make ANYONE look good, including 2+2. And you know looking good is what I am all about J.
I didn't say Krieger was right or wrong (John below says he is in fact wrong). My point was that he made a short post that didn't attack you directly in any way I could discern and your response here seemed to be an overreaction.
BTW, Hero still hopes you respond to her post (the one where she says “Make Fear Your Friend”) on the Medium Limit Forum. Also read Gabe's response under her post. It is hilarious. Let's talk Poker (and movies and fishing)!
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
BTW, I read Lou's grammar post; if you see him, tell him he's wrong. While the misplacement of the word "only" may lead to ambiguity, it certainly does not limit the meaning in the way he suggests.
Say hello to Steve if he's still there.
John
I had to read through ten posts to figure out that this was all about grammar, not poker. I simply responded to something on RGP about the proper placement of the adverb, "only" in a sentence, and quoted the "Gregg Reference Manual," which is an athorative source on grammar and usage. Geeeez, if I'm gonna generate a thread with this many posts, I would hope it would be about something more substantive than a reference book's recommendations about adverb placement.
Yes, but Vince does make a good point. Even though you were only having a little fun with the grammar, you had to know that you were pouring a little more gasoline on the fire and were encouraging another round of attack posts. So in the future I hope you can stay out of these things.
Lou,
You should know there's no such thing as an "authoritative source" after reading through this thread. :-}
John
Krieger wrote
"I simply responded to something on RGP about the proper placement of the adverb, "only" in a sentence, and quoted the "Gregg Reference Manual," "
What he actually wrote on rgp was
#Strunk and White probably thinks "only" is a word best left unused, because it's a word that's so often misused. But you don't need a guide in this instance.. To say, "I only have one 'm' on my keyboard," means your keyboard has but one letter on it, and that letter is "m." I know of no keyboards that come this poorly equipped. Most contain the entire alpahbet."
If all he was doing was responding to the proper placement of the adverb "only" why was it necessary to make the comment "I know of no keyboards that come this poorly equipped. Most contain the entire alpahbet."
To touchy me it seems clear that he was sarcastically demeaning the author of the comment concerning one m on his keyboard. The author in this case was me. I could be wrong but I doubt it!
P.S. Looks like Dunc wins his bet. I couldn't resist not responding to this lie!
Vince
Vince,
Sneaking in at two in the morning! Didn't your parents warn you about this?
John
p.s. Maybe you're right.
Vinnie, if this really is you (you normally have listed your email address behind your name - tell?), please keep in mind that I only established the O/U line on your return.
Had I been a gambler, I probably would have taken a slight 'over', figuring that sometime around 1 a.m. Saturday you would get home from the Friday Night Wars and regale us with some tale of woe from the evening.
Looks like I was was off base, but that's nothing new the ways things have gone at the tables for me this week.
xx
nt
But Vince, you have to admit that the post from Fujiyama33204(in the thread "Cesspool,Sklansky, Badger, etc...") explaining why you use the term "asshole" was damn funny!
Kissinger once said that the reason academic feuds are so heated is because so very little is at stake. Or something like that. Anyway, I think this applies to you, Vince, and your war over on RGP.
Who cares?! I can think of at least 40 other things I'd rather do at any given minute than exchange heated posts with a bunch of poker gnomes I've never met and never plan on meeting.
BTW, I think poker is the only game/ sport in the world that has such spiteful, small minded twits as is spokespeople. Can you imagine Michael Jordan acting like a wiseass on the NBA.com website?
Can someone please remind me where to find images of playing cards. The ones that some folks used in posts a while back. I am making a web site and want to use them. Thanks.
KJS
KJS,
Here is the link courtesy of "Dick In Pheonix", a formally frequent poster. BTW, please don't use them in posts like Izmet and Abdul. I can't afford the color cartridges for my inkjet :-).
Link To Images of Playing Cards
Regards,
Rick a.k.a. "Mr. Text"
Rick, you can always set your printer to graytones only. But you know that don't you.
Haven't been to HP lately. Was nice to see you in person. I know you don't work there anymore. Hope you are in the big win column.
Heated nightly debates, Vinces blood pressure rising, Steve Badgers air-head ego expanding, uncensored colorful use of the English language, pass the beer and nachos please(extra peppers). Sic'em Vince Lepore.
Sorry, didn't have enough room for the "No Messege" abreviation (n/t).
Every once in a while I'll see somebody use a word like "that" used back-to-back in a sentence, example:
(1) I understand that that is the way it should be done.
Is there a mistake being made here? If you drop one of the words in question, don't you express the same thought? Example:
(2) I understand that is the way it should be done.
Thanks for any help.
,,,
There's really nothing wrong with the back-to-back "that." However, a good "rule" to follow is one "that" per independent clause. Your samples, though, have different meanings. You could rewrite: "I understand the way it should be done." You can probably see how this differs from your first sample, though. My sentence implies "it" can be done one way; your first sentence shows that "it" can be done numerous ways but "that that" is the best way. Now, if you compare my revision two your two samples, you'll see the difference between your two samples. The first implies alternative methods of doing "that"; the second says you understand the one way "it" should be done.
John
The second 'that' is absolutely redundent, and creates and 'infantile sentence', to quote an old english teacher of mine. The word 'that' is one of the most overused words in written english.
Whenever I write a page I go back and am usually able to cull out a handful of extraneous 'thats'. It makes for much more presentable writing.
(I don't understand Cole's comparison of the sentenct with no 'that' at all in it, since your question was about one or two inclusions of 'that'.
A writing instructor for college english 101 told my class a funny thing once while he lectured us against juvenile writing. He said when he took our papers home to grade(reports on 'Dante's Inferno'), there were so many "that's" in them that he had the heebie-jeebies when he layed down to sleep that night. His mind was a swirl of 'Dante says that', 'Dante thinks that . . . ' ad infinitum.
Nick,
Read both sentences again; the sentence with the two "that's" implies more than one way of doing whatever it is, and the speaker now understands the best approach. The second says the speaker understands how it should be done. For example, suppose someone were showing you how to do a math problem that you solved using one method, but the solution required you to use one approved method. You might respond, "I understand that that is how it should be done." Now, if the problem could be solved using one specific method you didn't understand until someone showed you, you would respond, "I understand that is how it should be done."
I also recommend deleting useless "that's," but relative clauses and relative pronouns are required in writing, more so than in speech. Your old English teacher was cautioning you against combining strings of relative clauses in the same sentence. Of course, you're right about "Dante says that." Dante says, ... is sufficient.
John
The first "that" is a relative pronoun; the second is a demonstrative pronoun. Although both are the same word, they serve different functions within the first sentence. Hope this helps.
John
(1) I understand that that is the way it should be done.
(2) I understand that is the way it should be done.
Neither of these sentences is excluding the possiblity of there being more than one approach.
Both sentences say the speaker 'understands how it should be done' - not just the second.
The extra 'that' adds nothing but a bit of confusion.
I got in touch with my old english teacher! Here's his response. Seems you have a point john.
" I understand that that is how it should be done.
You can drop the first that without injuring the meaning of the sentence. However, if used, it does function grammatically as a subordinating conjunction, joining the subordinate clause(that that is how it should be done)to the main clause(I understand). The second that in this construction is a demonstrative pronoun that refers to whatever it is they're talking about here, the manner of doing. Me, I say get rid of as much shit as you can, so I wouldn't double up here, generally speaking.
Okay? Cheerio! "
Nick,
Now exactly how old is your "old" English teacher? :-}
Actually, it's a relative clause since the first "that" is a relative pronoun, not a conjuction. But us (shouldn't that be "we"?) old English teachers tend to get a bit addled at times.
John
Reminds me of my favorite Built to Spill line:
Frank thought it twice And thought that that that made it true Some brains just work that way That's what chemicals can do
KJS
Remember:
That that is is that that is not is not.
Remember:
That that is, is. That that is not, is not.
I remember one that used seven "thats" consecutively, and it could be properly punctuated.
John
Okay, I give up. What is the sentence that uses that seven times consecutivly?
Is there any mediaction one can take to mend a broken heart, is there a medical procedure, how about therapy or is it one of those things that time heals. As in time heals all things.
This is nothing to do with poker or romance.
Just a middle aged guy with the world coming apart and powerless to fix it.
Go to psychotherapy. This is legitimate advice, and not a flame.
Dear Rounder,
It is the most devastating and earth-shattering thing to be heart sick. And no one can empathize unless they are writhing in that sea of pain at the very same time. Pain is transitory. And as soon as it's gone, you forget how very ugly it was. Time will dull the pain. Allow yourself the strength to withstand the time it will take to see you through the blackest of hours. Take each hour as they come. Focus on getting through that hour before worrying about the next. Realize that you are a gift and that one day, you'll find someone that will appreciate and thank God that they have found you. And in the end, the sun will shine once more.
"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears, or the sea." - Isak Dinesea
ok ok..screw the syrupy crap.
rectangulator is right. Find a good professional listener..one that knows their stuff and by "stuff", I mean an intelligent mind that has trained in the field of psycho analysis. Freud was once asked what he could tell us about the human psyche that we fail to understand. And he responded, "That we all are so very much alike."
"No man is an island."
And I swear to you, that is my last damn quote.
*smile*
Rounder -- There are broken hearts and then there are broken hearts. When it goes beyond the routine kind of grieving or anguish most anyone would feel under the circumstances it's time to think about some sort of help beyond just the healing of time. I have to agree with rectangulator and desire. In fact I am partial to psychoanalytic approaches as well. There are even medications which can help, at least as a stop gap measure. But - and this is my bias to be taken FWIW - I think they kind of mask sypmtoms rather than allowing you to get at the root cause (though they have their place and may sometimes be necessary). There are well trained psychoanalytic therapists of a number of kinds, but their levels of training vary. Your best guarantee of someone really thoroughly trained in psychoanalytic technique is to find a certified psychoanalyst. A true psychoanalyst has trained some seven years or so *beyond graduate or medical school (some are Ph.D.s, some M.D.s, and others M.A.s in areas like social work), specifically in the technique of psychoanalysis. If you're lucky your medical insurance will pay. If not, then you start talking with the therapist about options, referrals, etc. Chicago (you still there?) has what I believe it a top notch psychoanalytic institute:
http://www.chicagoanalysis.org/
They could provide a good referral. Also, see the section on "community services" If cost is a factor, you could go the route of seeing an analyst in training at a reduced fee. (Note that this will, in almost all cases, be someone fully trained as a therapist *before they began training in psychoanalysis. So it's not like seeing a young, green therapist.)
Sorry for all that detail. The short answer is find a good psychotherapist.
I don't think you should go to psychotherapist.
Whatever has broken your heart, figure out what about it fulfilled your existence. Figure out why you lost it. Figure out how to get it back or replace it or deal with it.
Doing this yourself will make you much stronger than having someone hold your hand through the process. And if you can get through it yourself, it will make it easier next time.
Your world is not coming apart, the sun rises every day and you are still alive. Life is a struggle. Keep struggling.
The light of my life - my daughter - announced she is getting married to the biggest loser, high school drop out, spent most of his teen years in reform school, jerk you can imagine.
She is 22 and should finish college - I hope - mext May. Hell, I wouldn't feel this bad if she were to pick a poker player.
It is always hard to see your loved ones make life changing mistakes.
marrying losers isnt fatal, darlin'
i survived two of them ;)
"What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger."
Thanks for that.
"Doing this yourself will make you much stronger than having someone hold your hand through the process."
This is one of the biggest misconceptions about therapy. A well conducted therapy has absolutely nothing to do with having your 'hand held.' It has to do with developing insights which are essentially obtainable only in conjunction with a trained, objective obsever (therapist). Much of one's internal world gets played out *in relationship* with the therapist, and is interpreted and illuminated in the therapy, making such unique insight possible. As a rule it is the stronger person who will try therapy, since it engenders feelings of vulnerability which require real courage to face.
If you were to learn in some depth what psychotherapies of different sorts actually involve, I do not think you would so casually discount the possiblilty of therapy.
Also, Rounder's initial post suggested extreme pain. Your statement,
"Your world is not coming apart, the sun rises every day and you are still alive. Life is a struggle. Keep struggling.",
is really uncalled for. It is just exceptionally unempathic and out of touch with what is possible in emotional suffering. It's not an uncommon attitude really, but it's grossly misinformed. I'm sorry to sound a bit harsh, but I think you commented here on something about which you should learn much more before again casually discounting someone's expression of pain.
?????
Mike, somehow I missed this thread until just now. Yesterday you gave a very nice, supportive answer to a post of mine. I was curious and checked the time of that post. It was just 7 minutes before you posted your “broken heart” message above. Now I appreciate it even more.
I agree with John Feeney and the others who suggest psychotherapy. The answer to all your questions lies within yourself. The therapist just facilitates your finding the road map. They are like a business consultant for the business of you. In the process, you can discover the depth of your magnificence and power.
In the past, I was in psychotherapy. I just knew things could feel better for me than they did. Fortunately, I had a friend who suggested it, so I went. It was one the best decisions I ever made. It became a personal adventure of self-discovery.
I feel badly that you are in pain right now. You have a lot of friends here that feel the same way. I wish you well.
Alden Chase (tyro)
I read most of the responses advocating psycotherapy etc. ......ugh! Makes me want to puke. I cannot even spell the word. Anyone with as good a handle as Rounder doesn't need this crap. You mention you are middle aged....hopefully this means you are late 40s or younger. My suggestion? Find a physical activity and throw yourself into it. Cycling, hiking, running, lifting, it does not matter. The endorphin release will eat away all the heartache.
95% + of those I see that are depressed are physically inactive. All I can say to those disagreeing with this post......TRY IT!
I'm curious. What is it that bothers you about the idea of psychotherapy?
the cost
do you agree that (pseudoquote) 'at least 10% of children need to be on ritalin, some prenatally' ?
theres a large segment of mainstream psycho-guys who believe this. (im being generous)
im sure they also believe that children shouldnt be disciplined in any way (at least not by the parents).
any way you look at it (im sure in a few years it'll be 1/4 of kids, then ...) it seems wrong to me.
(( all stuff about soviet model,etc., omitted ))
brad
"do you agree that (pseudoquote) 'at least 10% of children need to be on ritalin, some prenatally' ?"
No I don't. When I was in the therapy field I was pretty close to the extreme anti-medication camp. So I'm not representative at all. I suspect you'd find the bulk of the most pro-ritalin, pro-medication-in-general therapists to be psychiatrists, since prescribing is primarily what they do these days. Admittedly, though, there are some psychologists and other therapists who have bought the pro-medication arguments. But the bottom line is that there's just a wide range of opinion about almost every issue in clinical psychology and psychiatry.
FWIW, I was quite interested in some research which had found psychotherapy to work much better than medication for scizophrenia, a condition which tends to be medicated as automatically as any. Though I suppose it's a little old now (been out of the filed for a while) the book, _Psychotherapy of Schizophrenia_ by Karon & Vandenboss is the nuts on the topic. It detailed what I think was a hugely important study at Michigan State that has generally been ignored by the much of the mental health community. One of these days I'll have to see what the authors have been saying more recently.
You would think that a psychotherapist would refrain from using terms like "the nuts".
You've got a point there, especially when it just might be mistaken for self-reference. 8^O
...not scott. (he said, if to prove his point)
You mean you and scott are one and the same? I thought Rick and Vince were the only ones here with alter-egos.
No, my computer just channeled scott when he visited here. Some residual effect of the experience remained behind for one post.
...not scott. (he said, as if to prove his point)
.
I think it has way too much, "don't worry, be happy".
Example. A 240 pound woman is told "be happy with yourself; be proud of what you are"
I don't buy it. I think we need more tough love. A logical well rounded person 100 pounds overweight SHOULD be depressed. There is something inherently wrong if this is NOT depressing them.
Mental health experts play an important role for those who truly need the help of an expert. But I see more and more people blaming society, looking for crutches, etc. C'mon. How about some personal responsibility, here? Most people in this (big) bucket don't need a shrink. What they need is a friend to drag them away from Sizzler and into Ballys.
Is fez fezzik?
Anyway...
"too much, "don't worry, be happy"."
That's kinda the opposite of what it does.
"I see more and more people blaming society, looking for crutches, etc."
Then they are not looking within, are they? Therapy encourages looking within, which is kind of synonymous with taking personal responsibility. I think you actually support it's goals more than you may realize.
I'm in good eneough shape to exercise even though I am past 50 - problem a parent like me has, is wanting the best for your kids, and giving it to them. Then they do something stupid like marry some guy who you despise as a person and can't accept as a son-in-law.
You are close with your daughter and she is smart close to college graduation and has a really good card sense. She placed 7th in a tough 100 player tournament on her 2nd and last try last year.
And I won't go to her wedding on Saturday. It makes me sick.
Rounder;
Why don't you describe this son-in law to be for us? Might be good therapy. Anyway, if you think your daughter's cool and she likes the guy, where's the breakdown?
I put him and his brother in jail twice when they were in their teens for vandalizing my property, no HS deploma, he spent his teen years in reform school for two thefts he was convicted on, I know he stole from me but couldn't prove it in court. Both are just 22.
This guy is a no hoper - don't know who his father is.
He thinks he is marrying money but as of Saturday my will changes and as long as she is married to this sleaze her share stays in trust.
Life sucks.
If your daughter wants you at the wedding, please go. If you don't, you will never be able to undo not going. Be there for your daughter, she will love you even more for that.
You can manage. Stay in the background. Stay away from him. You don't have to stay. I know it will pain you, but I do not think you will ever regret going. Someday, you may regret that you did not go.
In the short term, not going will be easier for you. In the long term going will be better. It will keep you more connected at a time you need it and in later times when she may need it.
Alden
Thanks - people I respect are giving me the same advice. I have to think about it but I am a stubborm sicillian so maybe I won't be able to go.
.
I dont think you can like or get along with anyone. Anyone I know in the Chicago area thinks your a jerk and will never get any respect. As far as the dealers and floor people go, we have a lil bit waiting for your next trip.
P.S. Can't wait to see ya!!!!
LOL
When I worry about what a jerk like you thinks about me. As for the dealers and floors at Hollywood all I want the is to do their job like professionals that means "SHUT UP AND DEAL"
What's amazing is that you are describing my worst fear of having kids.
Call it what you want, but I am virtually certain that if I have sons and they were dating a trainwreck, all it would take would be a long walk in the woods, and I could get them to see the light logically.
Re: Daughters? Forget it! Throw all logic out the window. All you can do is be supportive, since if you attempt to show your daughter the light, she will just be resentful.
Woman are brainwashed by Society from day 1 that true love is more important than what anyone thinks, even family and friends. Go see Titanic, etc.
X
Dear Rounder,
A father always holds a unique piece of real estate in a daughter's heart. He is her eternal protector. Unconditionally. No man will ever equal the love and admiration that a daughter feels for her father. Don't view your attendance at her wedding as condoning her choice of a man. Rather consider it as loving her no matter how ill-advised her decisions can be. She is young and in love. Go be with her, tell her you will love her forever and that you will always be there to share her life, during the trials and tribulations as well as the joy. You absence will be so pronounced as to be noticed and debated by everyone in attendance. Don't detract from what to her is a wondrous day. Go to the wedding, kiss your daughter and tell her you hope every day to come is as bright as the sparkle in her beautiful eyes. And reassure her that you love her and that she shall always have an open-armed protector to run to.
Should the word release be a poker acronym for, Random Edge Lost, Eradicate Action, Save Edge? The greatest weapon any hold'em player has is their ability, their willingness, to release a bad hand from a bad position. Any two cards can win but in the long run, any two will send a poker player to the poker poor house.
The Release Factor, in limit hold'em, separates the winners from the losers. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to play group one hands, in most cases the great starting hands play them self. Great starting hands that hit the flop, turn, and river only need the player to throw chips into the pot and to rake them back when they win.
The real challenge in hold'em is to be able to recognize the junk, control your emotional desire to play the hand, and with confidence you muck the junk and wait for a real starting hand. I believe most hold'em players know this but knowing and doing are two different animals. What goes thru the mind of the player when he/she looks at some of their two suited hold'em cards.
Early position, the hand, the thought, the explanation, were does the player play from.
The hand J 6 suited, thought process, color coded, it's suited, call. We call this the "Suited Opportunity." Players from Any2card Town (A2CD), use this color code with great regularity. They always remember the big win and never the countless missed attempts and herds of chips lost over the long run.
The hand 9 5 suited UTG, thought process, it could flop two pair, call. No two pair on the flop, one flush card on the flop, maybe I'll call and the turn will bring four to a flush, well, the river surly will have my winning miracle card.
The UTG player raised, our hero has K 8 suited,call. The thought process, no logic can explain it... Plays from Border Town, (BT).
The Q 7 suited, the SPM told me it wins 80% of the time, call. Mommy told you not to talk to strange men. Plays from A2CT.
Middle Position, after a raise from a player in early position.
Q 5 suited, thought process, color coded, it's suited, call. The raise is a bluff, and if I can play them suited from early position I can play them from anywhere. A2CT.
Late position...
Any two, they were suited...
SPM,...that might make a great hold'em book, "The Cards Were Suited, the Player Wore Rags"...
it looks like our montana musher doug swingly will win the alaska idarod again this year. he beats the field by such a large margin he is in a class by himself. part of his success is he can run his dogs longer without rest. its not cruelty though i think. this is 4 wins with 3 in a row i believe. something is different that he does?
Maybe he's not particularly crueler than any other driver, but could it be said that cruelty is almost endemic to this competition? Do dogs die? If so, I gotta think there is some measure of cruelty almost by definition. Anyway, I'm just curious.
JG
you gotta be kidding. those dogs LOVE to race. its in their blood.
I know that, but at a certain point, one can do something way beyond the limits of reason that they "love" when pushed hard enough. Disclaimer: I never had any questions about cruelty or whatever til I saw a Rome op-ed piece (I know, I know) the other night denouncing the entire race as cruelty to animals. Rome has been known to be a little over the top, so I thought I'd ask here. (didn't mean to pee on your thread Ray, but I was curious).
JG
First, I'm no expert at all on dog racing, but...
Occasionally dogs die. It is a high stress, high endurance race after all. However, in recent years there has been a significant decline in the number of dog deaths due to increased awareness combined with increased medical support for the animals.
Well, the two dogs that died this year probably lost some of their passion for it.
Note, I'm not anti-dog racing; just want to let you know that it is a very dangerous sport for dogs.....but alot safer than deer hunting is for deer!
:)
It's the iditarod, not ididarod. After all, this is what's really important in this thread, right?
;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
z,
something is different that he does? He lives with his dogs and treats them better than most humans get treated. To me this sport is not cruelty, but humans can be cruel (read some threads) and they can be cruel to the dogs and other things besides dogs.
I did a rod once and discovered electricity.
I ditto a rod once and discovered death.
iuok
Internet Story form the Chairman...
Sam has been in the computer business for 25 years and is finally sick of the stress. He quits his job and buys 50 acres of land in Minnesota as far from humanity as possible. Sam sees the postman once a week and gets groceries once a month. Otherwise, it's total peace and quiet.
After six months or so of almost total isolation, he's just finishing dinner when someone knocks on his door. He opens it and there is a big, bearded man standing there. "Name's Leon... Your neighbor from four miles away... Having a party Saturday... thought you'd like to come."
"Great," says Sam. "After six months out here I'm ready to meet some local folks. Thank you." As Leon is leaving he stops, "Gotta warn you there's gonna be some drinkin'." "Not a problem... after 25 years in the computer business, I can drink with the best of 'em." Again, as he starts to leave Leon stops. "More 'n' likely gonna be some fightin' too." Sam says, "Well, I get along with people. I'll be there. Thanks again."
Once again Leon turns from the door. "I've seen some wild sex these parties, too." "Now that's not a problem," says Sam, "I've been all alone for six months! I'll definitely be there...by the way, what should I wear?"
Leon stops in the door again and says, "Whatever you want, just gonna be the two of us."
Change Minnesota to Montana, Computer industry to poker, Sam to Ray...
What ya tryin to say about the Zee man, SPM??? (JK Ray, how's ice out coming? any hatches yet?)
i think it may be time to bring spm out to montana and make him take one of my hikes up a mountain. my house has been enlarged to 40 sq. ft. and i might even put a window in this year. so the accomadtions would be montana first class. ask mason some time what i did to him when he came out. his feet still hurt. its snowing today but being 30 degrees we all are in shorts. two weeks and the fishing will be good till the may - june runoff.
It's seventy here in the bay area. the steelhead are tapering off in the nearby streams, but the halibut are making an early appearance in the local bays. Sturgon are around, too, but I don't think my 2, 5, 6 or even 8 wt rods can stand up to them. all in all, I'm glad I'm not in Montana (but reserve the right to change that opinion from after the run-off until the last hopper is out of the meadows).
This post is to all regular 2 + 2 poster's plus one of the hosts in particular, David.
I began posting on this forum a long time ago. Almost three years now. Those of you that posted back then know that I sometimes get a bit carried away with things.
Not this time.
First I have a few questions for Rick Nebiolo, GD and David. What if I told you that Steve Badger, the Card Player columnist called each and every one of you a piece of shit? Suppose he wrote it in his card player column? Would you respond? Would it bother you?
Well it bothered me. No he didn't write Vince Lepore is a piece of shit. No he didn't put it in his column. He wrote that the 2 + 2 forum is a cesspool. And he wrote it on the rgp poker forum. I partipate in this forum on a regular basis. I feel at home here. I have learned a lot about poker and other things from the likes of skp, M, Fossilman,Nebiolo,Jim,LL,JF, Cole, Mary, Haley, Rounder,CHris A, the list goes on, even Glover my nemnisis has taught me a lot. Not to mention how much I have gotten from our hosts Malmuth, Z, and Sklansky. I have tried to contribute as best I can to help make this forum a success. I partipate in no other formal group. This is it for me.
When Badger wrote that this place is a cesspool I took it personally. You're darn right I did. So i responded here on 2 + 2 to his cesspool remark as if he in fact called me a piece of shit in that cesspool. GD says nothing is at stake. I beg to differ. I play a lot of poker. I am friendly and out going and consequently get into a lot of converstions with other players. I almost always end up recommending that they visit this website for poker discussion. I am not going to just let Badger label 2 + 2 a cesspool and have to be faced with the possibility of someone responding that they heard from a poker authrity that this forum is a bunch of shit.
So I responded and an interesting thing happened. Badger read my response here and started another thread on rgp titled "2 + 2 cesspool backs up again" and blasted me in it. There's that cesspool thing again. O.K. I decided for my own reasons to continue the foray. I wanted to see if Badger would continue and he did. When I stopped Badger was ready to keep going. Badger hates Mason Malmuth and his hate shows through every time he gets a chance. I was not going to let him just run off at the mouth and say what he feels like about people that participate here regardless of how subtly disguised. That is why I continued the rgp thing until I felt it had gone on long enough to prove my point.
The problem is that after responses like the one from rick where he basically says that I am the bad guy here and GD that says there is nothing at stake. Plus Sklansky going up on rgp and declaring his undying love for Badger I am beginning to see the light. I do not feel I was wrong here. In fact I feel that I was right to take issue with Badger. But this forum is not mine. So I am going to stop posting here for a while. I've done this before so no need to think it's a permanent thing. I wrote this post just to let all my fellow regular posters know that I have loved the interchange we have had over the years. If my little war with Badger has made this forum look bad I apologize to all of you for that. It won't happen again.
Vince
He wrote that in Card Player? If so, I'd be delighted if I was the proprietor. Unsolicited publicity will for whatever sick reason generate new traffic and probably future sales once they see what's really going on. But it won't induce anyone who was going to check it out but hadn't done so yet to all of a sudden change their mind. Bully for Badger.
JG
Vince:
I really think that you have this wrong. Even though you are correct, it is not the way to go about it.
I have been attacked more than any of the poker writers over the years. This goes back to the initial attack by a well known writer in an early 1989 issue of Card Player where he claimed that I was trying to use his research to prove him wrong. If I was to list all the writers and times they they attacked me and and said that I was totally dishonest the list would be too long too keep anyone's interest. I have even been threatened personally by two different writers. (One denies that the incident ever happened, and the other wrote on RGP last year that I was mentally ill.)
Several years ago, another publisher accused us of plagerism. It had to do with our book the FUNDAMENTALS OF BLACKJACK. He claimed that we had copied a similar book of his and also wanted us to lower our wholesale price to his organization for our books. I then had a very enlightening discussion with our attorney. You know, that's the one that Gary Carson and Babara Yoon aka as Lawrence Hill always criticize. (By the way, we did receive an apology from this publisher. He claimed that he had confused our work with someone else.)
One of the things that our attorney pointed out was that when you are extremely successful at what you do the attacks will come. It is just a sign of success, and I believe that this is what has happened to us.
The fact of the matter is that the best most other writers can do is to try to rewrite our material and put their own spin on it. This creates a problem for them in that they tend to be viewed as mediocre at best.
So many of them take another approach. They try to prove us wrong. The don't realize that both David and I (and our other authors to a lessor extent) have put out a great deal of material that has stood the test of time. In some cases, our critics haven't even read our stuff, they just attack based on what they think we wrote because someone at a poker table describes something to them.
Another thing they don't realize is that we are always striving to improve our works and spend our time in the games. We don't publish anything unless we know from first hand experience, and that means a lot of time at the tables, that what we say is absolutely correct.
So we begin to see all sorts of attacks, and since I am the one who acts as the head of Two Plus Two Publishing, the attacks get directed at me the most. I believe, that they represent frustrated competitors who just can't break into that higher zone where their books will sell better, their writings will be taken more seriously, and they will begin to receive the attention that they think they deserve.
So this brings us to the bottom line. That is what do we do about this? My philosophy is not to do much of anything except address any legitimate poker issues that may come up. And of course that's the purpose of this forum. For example, I don't care very much what Badger, or any writer for that matter, thinks about us or says about us and these forums. We at Two Plus Two have worked hard on them and the general quality of material that appears speaks for itself.
So the best defense is to continue to do what we do best. Just put out more good material. Everything else will take care of itself and there should be no need to defend against the personal attacks. In fact, the attackers should slowly expose themselves as being suspect, and they will do us a service in the long run by making even more people aware of our stuff.
Almost eloquent, I would say.
The only thing your guilty of Mason is turning (converting) alot of marginal players into strong experts at the same time filling up the middle limits, and this has created bitter animosity from the sharks who want marginal players to remain marginal, and jealousy and envy from the likes of Steve Badger becuase you got a jumpstart long before, will what Mr. Badger is doing right now at his website, you simply got the big piece of the pie first, sloppy seconds are not for alot of people. Keep up the good work>>>><<<< congats. for getting CherryPoker.com as an additional sponser to this site, another evidence of success.
Were those personal threats you received "physical threats", or were they geared toward your reputation?
Vince,
So what, you go a little overboard at times. Don't we all? After reading through the threads on RGP, though, I can fairly say that you weren't the only one. Various posters pointed out your spelling, usage, and typing skills. (I don't really believe that Lou Krieger was one of those. His response seemed directed to Carson on the use of the word "only." (BTW, both were wrong, in my opinion.)) You know I have little regard for posters who find it necessary to point out writing "mistakes"; unsolicited criticism can only serve to discourage posters from contributing valuable information. (I broke my own rule a bit when I suggested another citation format to Mark Glover.) Quite frankly, I was amazed to see the amount of unsolicited criticism on RGP. So, what's this got to do with your post. Let me explain.
First, pointing out small errors is de rigueur on RGP. I'm not surprised you find yourself "kicking against the pricks" over there. You made your points effectively and forcefully, and if you felt offended, you felt offended. Certainly, you felt compelled to respond; however, I think you already knew what kind of response you would receive from Badger and others. (Hint: Here's my word of the day: Sophistry.)
But, Vince, I think your legitimate contempt for Badger and a few others might have clouded your perception a bit. You know that Rick has been my friend for nearly thirty years. In no way does he mean to imply that you're the "bad guy." He knows Lou very well, and he, also, felt compelled to jump to his defense. Because Lou Kreiger responded within a thread where various posters took you to task for asinine matters, ignoring what you really had to say, does not mean that he was trashing you, too. Like Rick, I find no direct attack on you.
At the beginning of your post, you say that you are friendly and outgoing. I agree. Since I have met you (my good fortune), I also know that you are a person of honor and integrity. So, Vince, keep going overboard--someone has to.
Respectfully,
John
Just kidding.
JG
w
Is there a strict rule on that? Does the punctuation always go in the quotation marks (my 5th grade teacher said it did), or can the punctuation go outside if it is not being quoted?
Strict? Hmm, I don't know what strict is exactly, but the few style manuals in my ownership all say so. It does look weird with the semicolon, though, I must admit. And to tie it all together, Badger himself flamed Mike McClain on an altogether great post where Mike violated that convention on rgp about a month or two ago. Funny stuff.
JG
Phat Mack,
Actually, I assumed that I had written "mistake" instead of "mistakes." I didn't realize Jim was pointing out an error in using punctuation with quotation marks. Had I, I would have told him that I am, of course, correct. Semicolons are placed outside quotation marks; commas and periods are placed inside--always.
My "I knew that" response acknowledged that he was kidding, which I did know.
So take that, Jim. :-}
John
I knew it all along. That's why I was deliberately vague. Also I own no style manuals, so I didn't lie there either. hahahahaha. sorry rough day at work.
JG
.
Vince,
As stated below, I don't think you are the bad guy. But you chose to battle Badger, and he will be relentless. Do keep in mind that he has alienated many over there, so you may have fought a battle you cannot end or win. Badger will always get in the last word (although one time I was up until early morning to get in the last word – of course the post was deleted!).
Initially Badger was reacting to SmoothB's post about a hand Badger played very poorly. I think you responded to that post. Badger denied he even played that night or that hand. I can't verify if it is true (that Badger played the hand) or not, but the post could have been written without mentioning Badger directly. If so, the interesting part of the hand could have been discussed without acrimony.
You wrote: “What if I told you that Steve Badger, the Card Player columnist called each and every one of you a piece of shit? Suppose he wrote it in his card player column? Would you respond? Would it bother you?”
It would but he didn't. It is a given that he would call 2+2 a cesspool because of his hatred for Mason. But even people over there know that so he doesn't have much credibility.
If I were to address RGP on this issue, I would just ask those who have never visited, yet retain acrimony based on second hand opinions, to look for themselves. I might provide some background on the various forums, and also some hints for fast browsing (if I gave one hint Mason would kill me because I can turn off the banner ads).
”. I am not going to just let Badger label 2 + 2 a cesspool and have to be faced with the possibility of someone responding that they heard from a poker authority that this forum is a bunch of shit.”
Actually, this forum is so good that I hope the growth slows. I can't keep up!
”The problem is that after responses like the one from Rick where he basically says that I am the bad guy here and GD that says there is nothing at stake.”
VINCE, YOU ARE NOT A BAD GUY! Please see my clarification below.
”So I am going to stop posting here for a while. I've done this before so no need to think it's a permanent thing.”
Please respond to Hero before you go (since you are her Hero). But do come back soon.
Regards,
Rick
vince,
i appreciate your defence of 2+2 and your hard attack back. and i agree people that are not in the fracus should stay out with their comments especially if they wont write a long clear explanation of what they mean exactly. i dont post over on rpg as it seems that few really are worth debating. im personally glad that some of those there dont come to 2+2 anymore and i dont miss their posts. i would miss yours. if you discontinue posting here even for awhile over this i will be the one you are punishing most. my unsolisitated advice is to watch for a few years and see those people on rpg with the mean agendas(because they inside know that they are not winners and will never be) get and stay broke , and then say i told you so. the last laugh will be yours.
A quick comment. Based on my recent postings with MM, I'm not surprised he is not a popular guy.
Point out to him that a section of his book is lousy and incorrect, and all you get is a flippan/non response. Not exactly a guy whose writings are going to "stand the test of time" or an author that is "looking to constantly improve" IMO.
Fezzik:
When writing my post above, I almost gave two examples of people on this forum who seemed obsessed with proving us wrong. They would have been you and Mark Glover.
You have attacked, as has Glover, our book Gambling for a Living. This is a text that the back cover tells you "was written for the not-quite-as-experienced aspiring gambler." We wrote it and targeted it for people who are new to this subject and would be interested in an introduction to the idea that some gambling games can be beat.
Also, just for your information, I am not a sports bettor and do not consider myself knowledgeable enough in that area. If you have trouble with the sports betting information in GFL I suggest that you talk to David.
However, I am knowledgeable about other areas of gambling, notably poker, blackjack, and general gambling theory including much of the underlying statistical theory. If you wish to make worthwhile posts in those area I will be glad to occasionally respond. I am also the either the author or co-author of nine books (plus four booklets). From your posts and attacks it does not appear that you know this. You have targeted the one area that I had very little to do with.
Mason,
You wrote: "You have attacked, as has Glover, our book Gambling for a Living. This is a text that the back cover tells you 'was written for the not-quite-as-experienced aspiring gambler.' We wrote it and targeted it for people who are new to this subject and would be interested in an introduction to the idea that some gambling games can be beat."
I think your explanation could be misleading.
The back cover of your book states: "David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth have both spent many years writing about the finer points of poker, blackjack, and other beatable games. . . . This book, however, was written for the not-quite-as-experienced aspiring gambler. It shows you everything you need to learn and do if you want to gamble for a living both from the practical and the technical standpoint."
Mark -- You might generate more productive discussion if you explain your point rather than simply posting quotations. The passages you cite here and sometimes in other posts can be interpreted in subtly different ways if one wants to look hard enough for alternative meanings. Moreover, you and I, for instance, often interpret them differently. By sharing your own interpretation you will allow readers to know what your point is.
^
John,
You wrote: "You might generate more productive discussion if you explain your point rather than simply posting quotations."
I provided a fuller context to the quotation Mason used, allowed readers to compare that quotation with Mason's statement, and let those readers draw their own conclusions.
I think the vast majority of this forum's participants are quite capable of reaching their own conclusions without an explanation from me. You might feel otherwise.
If so, please feel free to generate your own productive discussion on how you interpret Mason's remark.
No one really wants to read your mind.
John,
Earlier, I wrote: "I think the vast majority of this forum's participants are quite capable of reaching their own conclusions without an explanation from me. You might feel otherwise.
"If so, please feel free to generate your own productive discussion on how you interpret Mason's remark."
You then wrote: "No one really wants to read your mind."
Careful. Unless they were familiar with your devotion to Mason, reasonable people easily could conclude that you slipped up and meant to say, "No one really wants to read Mason's mind."
No one really wants to read Mason's mind.
I'm reminded of that scene where the evil Plughead plugs into our hero Mark Glover (aka as Mr. Circuitry Man) and says,"YOU CALL THIS A MIND."
Well written and well explained. I am pleased that I finally got a real response from you.
Re: your 21 books. I actually have read them, and thought they were quite good, and the writing style exceptional.
Re: Future works from you and DS. My challenge for you is to not hide behind the "this book is for non experts", and actually write an indepth work, for experts (something similar to Grojean's recent work).
My take is both of you have the competency to do it. I'm not sure either of you still have the time or the desire.
Hopefully this will end your personal attacks.
However, it is still obvious to me that you have actually read very little of our material. If you had read books like The Theory of Poker, Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players, Getting the Best of It, and Gambling Theory and Other Topics you would see that we put out much detailed and sophisticated information that is extremely accurate. (If tha wasn't the case there wouldn't be so many participants in these forums.) This also includes some of the other books that we publish from other authors. Inside the Poker Mind by John Feeney is an example.
In addition, in Gambling for a Living we state:
"Each one of the beatable games involves so much knowledge that we obviously cannot tell you everything that needs to be said about them all in one book. We are going to give you a serious overview of the type of skills needed to beat them. However, once you decide a particular game fits your style or your preferred place of living, then you must go even further to become a true expert. Part of going further is of course, just gaining experience. The fact is, there is no substitute for experience, and it is a crucial part of becoming successful.
The other part is further reading and studying. That's why this book is liberally sprinkled with references to other books. In some cases they are our other books. We do not apologize for this. To go into the details of every game would make this a two-thousand page work. Nevertheless, you will learn plenty about each game from this text. But to put the finishing touches on any game you choose to play, you should read and study those books we recommend. That being said, let us now start our journey. When done, you should be well on your way to "Gambling for a Living.""
This makes me think that you probably haven't even read all of Gambling for a Living. If you would have read it completely, you would have seen this statement and perhaps better understood the purpose of the book.
Ever hear of damning with faint praise? This is a guy who said you can make $100 an hour in a $100 buy in tournament. No one believes that and no one believes his characteriztion of this forum. But I believe he believes most of the stuff he writes and does not intentionlly obfuscate as Gary Carson does. So I cut him some slack.
Hmmm, $100 per _HOUR_ is quite a claim. But I hazard that with good selectivity that that rate is possible. I'm specifically thinking of the $210 NL Hold'em one-table satellites the first week of the Series. And if you're playing in a rebuy tournament, it's not at all unreasonable to make that much if it's a short tournament with muchos fishies. But in say an 8-hour Omaha $100 tournament in LA, no way.
JG
I'm not all that old, at the ripe age of thirty, but I've been active on the internet since 1988. That's a long time. And one thing you just have to grow into is that there have always been flame wars, and there will always be flame wars. There will always be net kooks thriving on the attention, and there will always be people rising to the bait.
Once you accept is as a steady thing, you will take every bizarre insult with a bemused smile and see it as a complementary evidence that your name is recognized.
But it takes time, especially as we are conditioned in "real life" to respond when attacked. But as long as ego and status exists, there will be this bizarre aggresion. Something about the sensation of being removed from a distance makes people feel invulnerable as they type, is my theory.
Anyway, good luck in your "retreat into seclusion." Make sure you stay away long enough not to look silly, but not so long that we are unduly deprived of your wit and good cheer. :-)
Best,
Zooey
The Sports Book at Yellowhead Casino in Edmonton has listed the Over/Under of Vince's abstention from 2+2 posting to be 10:06 p.m. on Friday, March 16th. The windows are now open.
Seriously, Vince, I can somewhat understand your view, but I'm not sure taking your ball and going home is much of a longterm solution, either. I have never posted on rgp and rarely even lurk over there because I have found 2+2 to be just so much a better use of my time. But given all the rhetoric over the past couple of days, I just couldn't help myself and I have been loosely following this cesspool thing.
While I was a little offended that Badger would call 2+2 a cesspool, I just considered the source. You were expecting objectivity and reason? Please. But the last thing I thought of doing was getting into a shoving contest on the playground, so to speak, with that crew. I just ignored them and moved on. Yet I was not as directly invovled as you were, so I am certainly not going to flame you for going to war with them, either.
Of course, I was a banker for 20 years, so after you foreclose on a few widows and children just before Christmas, I found I can take a lot of heat without it bothering me too much. LOL.
Talk with you again soon, I'm sure.
Vince, don't let a man unworthy of your time rent space in your head. Heed the old saying, "Living well is the best revenge." If he plots the course of any of your actions, then he has mastered you. Be the captain of your ship. Screw him, darlin'. Don't let him steal your thunder. Your posts make me smile at least once a day. Why in hell should I and the rest of your ardent admirers be punished because of some knucklehead that has an agenda for this forum and every regular that posts here? Don't let him staunch the flow of this forum by silencing you. I guess I am going to have to drag my laptop to vegas with me this week-end, should I find you to need more chastising.
Vince dear Vince,
When you're not around, the forum will never be the same, so don't stay gone too long, you don't need to explain.
I don't have enough time to write and say what's in my heart so I thought to borrow some lines from someone I don't know who (with changes here and there) but here it goes:
If you wish for the moon
I will bring you the stars
If you wish for the sun
I will bring you the sky
If you wish for some friendship
All my heart you'll receive
If you wish for me now
From the ends I will fly
If you wish for me gone
I will turn around and leave
But for all this I ask
Just one thing of you
Please....................
Come back to the forum soon.
LG
A little while back, I said that I would never again implore someone who wanted to leave the Forum to come back. But one has to make an exception for Sir Vincent.
Vince, forget RGP. Why do you think I don't post there? 80% of the threads are pure flame wars. There was a time when I used to lurk and get my kicks by looking at those flame threads but that got old pretty quick...these days I go into RGP maybe once every 4 or 6 weeks just to see if there is something worthwhile going on but of course it takes me about an hour to even find a worthwhile thread.
Just lose RGP from your bookmarks and stay where you belong - right here. We have already lost some key figures (eg. Dan Hanson, Abdul is a rare contributor and I fear that Izmet may have left given his recent run-in with Mason. Actually, I am not sure about Izmet and I hope that I am wrong in thinking that he has left). We would absolutely hate to lose you even if it is just for a short time.
BTW, regardless of who is right or wrong over on that RGP thread (and I don't intend on reading all of it to come to an informed opinion), I certainly appreciate your efforts to carry the 2+2 flag.
Bottom line: F*ck it - just stick around here and continue posting in your own inimitable style. We will all no doubt appreciate it.
Vince,
The first time I posted on this forum was a year ago and it concerned a hand I played poorly. I was dealt with a pair of Aces and I folded to a raise because my fear took over when I saw the board paired.
Your advice to me then is what I always follow everytime I play poker and it works successfully. You have helped me tremendously and I would like to express my thanks and gratitude.
Your departure from the forum (even for a short time) will be a great loss to students of the game like me. You and Rick and the rest of the posters are my teachers and I absorb all the knowledge you impart. You were, you are, and you will always be my hero.
Student/Hero
Vince,
I hope your brief break from posting is truly brief (hopefully no more then a day or two). You never fail to write something that is witty or useful. I want to commend you for defending the 2+2 forum against bashing from the likes of Badger. I think it was noble and you are the man! I do also agree with what Mason said about basically letting those people hang themselves but your approach was still pretty nifty if you ask me. Anyway hope to see you posting real soon. Later...... Kris
Vince---
A few thoughts:
1. Forget Badger, forget rgp. Go off for a few days and clear your head. Read "Poker Essays 2" again. Spend a few hours with "TOP". Take a road trip. Give Tunica another try.
2. You were one of the first posters that I read when I first started with 2+2 over two years ago. I have continued to read most of your postings and have always enjoyed when we had some banter or interchange.
3. How could you have continued to call my "press bluff" raises and bets at the Bellagio 15-30 when all you had was that trash flush draw? That still makes me mad.
Abe
Vince vince vince vince vince---
What am I going to do with you ?:). You should know that I was in no way trying to insult or diminish you. I was simply pointing out that having "cyber wars" with these gnomes is something of a quixotic endeavor, and that you should focus your energy on things more gratifying.
And it is true, Vince, that when it comes to flame wars so very little is at stake. If you or Badger 'come out on top', what's going to change? Is Badger going to become any less acidic? The question, Vince, is a) What is it you're trying to accomplish, and b) are you going to accomplish it through your present course of action?
You can figure out the answers to the above questions, but I don't think you're going to change anyone's mind about this website by getting in a virtual pissing match with Steve Badger.
So, Vince, I implore you--- consider the above counsel. And take some more glycerin.... :)
Vince,
A couple months ago I got into a nasty w/Badger on RGP; over a basically trivial matter. In heat of 'battle', I made a couple of personal remarks, which I almost immediately apologized for.
Great player(and very good writer IMO) that he is, also IMO he is incapable of gracefully accepting an apology or conceeding a point in order to bury a hatchet and move on. And he absolutely will always get the last word. I HAD(emp. added) a college friend who Badger reminds me of; honest to a fault, but blinded by his own principles and always on guard for the slightest hint of perceived 'violation' of same.
In contrast, I also had a misunderstanding with Razzo that got cleared up with a single e-mail exchange.
"Don't try to fight a war you can't win..." Black Flag
Bill
p.s 94c rools over AA at 5:00 am.... :)
>>skp, M, Fossilman,Nebiolo,Jim,LL,JF, Cole, Mary, Haley, Rounder,CHris A, the list goes on, even Glover<<
For as long as I've been posting here, I have not once made it on one of these lists of significant posters. I give up. I'm joining Vince (even though I'm one of the few 2+2ers who is acquainted with him and he still didn't acknowledge me).
"I'm joining Vince (even though I'm one of the few 2+2ers who is acquainted with him and he still didn't acknowledge me). "
I played all night RIGHT NEXT TO VINCE last month at Bellagio; no name check from him.
Oh well, I'll keep hanging around....
Down to initials burined deep in the list now.
Well, my personal up to date list is:
3BB, BillM (despite his tournament jones), and KJS.
.
John,
About the initials "burined" [buried + urine] in the thread? James Joyce would be proud of this Freudian slip of the fingers.
One of my favorite Joycean spelling errors: "whoreship" instead of "worship."
John
How could you not be a significant poster? Your "flop the nuts" post was one of the funniest things I've ever read here or elsewhere. A month or so later I still crack a smile whenever it pops into my head.
Vince -- As I think you know, I agree with much of what you say in your post. But I think you saw the problem with going to rgp and trying to refute him, including responding in kind to some of the taunters there. First, sometimes when a 2+2'er posts something slightly contentious on rgp it stirs intense territoriality and group allegiance in a few "squeaky wheel" rgp'ers. They respond like a clique of kids on a playground whose little group has been invaded by a quarrelsome new kid from a rival school. I don't think it's specifically an rgp thing; it may just be a general newsgroup phenomenon. At any rate, it's an instance of a common bit of human behavior. (though it's kind of funny to consider such "territoriality" in light of the fact that everyone is actually just sitting at home or at work in front of a monitor) Though I didn't bother with all the posts, it also looked like this time you ran into a couple of new and prolific rgp'ers who still find much novelty in such silliness. And of course debate with Badger is not possible.
But regarding the basic thrust of your complaint about Badger's "cesspool" posts, I would bet that if every unposted thought about it were posted here and on rgp, you'd see overwhelming agreement with you.
John,
Let's change a few of your words and see how well it fits:
"First, sometimes when [one] posts something slightly contentious on [2+2] it stirs intense territoriality and group allegiance in a few 'squeaky wheel' [2+2'ers]. They respond like a clique of kids on a playground whose little group has been invaded by a quarrelsome new kid from a rival school. I don't think it's specifically a [2+2] thing; it may just be a general [Web] phenomenon."
Actually for some reason this phenomenon seems to be less likely to occur here. It may have to do with the ways in which these forums differ from newsgroups. Note that I was not criticizing rgp specifically. I speculated that it could be a general NG phenomenon.
John,
I didn't really expect you to see the parallel; but that doesn't mean the parallel is not there.
Mark, since you are without a doubt one of the most loyal and devout of all 2+2'ers [1], You have probably followed things here pretty closely. You may be right that the parallel is there. But I have some doubt. Maybe you could educate me. Can you name a couple of times when someone who would primarily be identified as an rgp'er has posted on 2+2 and been received in the manner I described in my post above? I can't. But I've seen the converse happen a number of times on rgp. Actually, I hope you CAN name them. I WANT the parallel to be there because I don't see any really strong reasons why it shouldn't be. It may even be that it is, but is overpowered by the effects of individual personalities. Who knows. Who care...err.. who might remember?
Now I know you must feel put on the spot, since it is I, your idol who is asking you to identify these occasions. Just calm down. I am human. I am capable of mistakes - no, not as many as the other 2+2 authors [2], but capable nevertheless. Drop the idol worship, see me as human, and you'll be able to think of those instances without getting too anxious.
I must now ask again, since you failed to respond in an earlier thread: Mark, do you drink coffee? (This is important.)
[1] Mark's loyalty to 2+2 is seen partly in his tireless analysis of the finest levels of grammatical detail in many of the 2+2 works. It is further seen in his refraining from posting on rgp (I think :). Many of us post both here and there, but Mark is loyal; he stays at home. Finally Mark has been seen recently attending two-a-day Sunday services at the Church of Two Plus Two (and I believe he has a long commute). Last week he was nodding and mouth breathing with a look of awe on his face as David announced during a particularly gripping sermon that a typo had been found in an early edition of _Sklansky on Poker Theory_. When David confirmed that Mason had approved bringing that edition into the 2+2 fold, and commencing a recall of all existing copies in order to correct this egregious error, Mark thrust his fist into the air in a John-Carlos-at-the-'68-Olympics manner. Thanks Mark for your loyalty. We love you. But we'd prefer that you learn to think for yourself.
[2] A couple of those dudes are real pieces or work, don't you think, brother? :-)
mocha java? Kenya AA?
Vince,
If you feel like taking a break for a while that is OK---I have recently taken a break from much posting for purely personal reasons, although I am slowly getting back to it now---but your posts will be sorely missed by many.
Regarding the issue on RGP, well, you definitely do have a tendency to get a bit stirred up (Badger shares a similar tendency and this combined with his manner of expression makes him a lightning rod). We all know your heart is in the right place. Sometimes it might pay to slow down a touch and respond more from the head rather than from the gut when people attack you or things or people you hold dear, if for no other reason than that a measured response is more likely to be well-received and understood.
There are certain posters on RGP who seem to love to attack or denigrate this forum or its participants or owners. In some instances a response to their attacks may be merited, but fortunately, as Mason may have pointed out, the more attention drawn to 2+2 the more exposure the site enjoys in a business sense. Speaking of sense in another fashion, most people, even newbies, on RGP probably have the sense to evaluate the 2+2 site on its own merits rather than take Badger's word for it.
If you stop posting I will certainly miss your posts greatly, especially now since I am just getting back to the forum. You are by far one of the most interesting and enjoyable posters on this forum. Mark
"In some instances a response to their attacks may be merited, but fortunately, as Mason may have pointed out, the more attention drawn to 2+2 the more exposure the site enjoys in a business sense."
While this statement is most likely very true, I would prefer that new players not be exposed to us this way. Their initial exposure should be based on the merits of our materials (which include this site) than on some jealous person's hateful monologue.
The reason for this is that new players deserve the best chance for success. When the hatefulness starts, some of them may be driven to works that will not give them the proper tools for being successful at the games. For instance, every time someone on RGP mentions the loose game section in the 21st Century edition of HPFAP Gary Carson attacks the book and that section as being completely wrong. He is obviously trying to steer people to his book (which I haven't read). What he always neglects to post is that we don't publish anything unless David and I know from vast expeience as well as a theorectical point of view that these concepts are indeed correct.
In the past, most people probably had their initial exposure to us at the poker tables. They would hear someone discussing some aspect of our books, and many of the more successful players speak favorably of them.
Unfortunately, the Internet is changing some of this. Now one hateful person, who is trying to make a reputation for himself, can have his voice heard over and over instead of at one poker table. That's why I spend much time on this site to make sure that's its integrity is not damaged. It's perfectly okay to disagree with us or to debate the merits of our books or someone's ele's book. But it should be done in a professional and objective manner.
I agree with your points.
It is unfortunate that the Internet has a way of magnifying negatives, even completely erroneous negative opinions, through mass exposure.
I did not intend to misquote you or paraphrase you incorrectly although I wrote the above rather hastily (one reason I wrote that "as Mason may have pointed out"), and I apologize if I did so inadvertently.
Certainly a more objective, less negative first-time exposure for people is desirable; I was merely noting the fact that it is a somewhat offsetting factor that even a negative first-time exposure may lead to people "checking things out for themselves", with an ultimately positive result in most cases.
That said, it is too bad that there are some who choose to put a negative slant/negative personal slant on much that they choose to write insted of confining themselves to discussing facts and theory for the most part. Both this forum and RGP would improve greatly if more people followed the intended spirit and purposes of these forums.
^
Vince,
You? A bad guy? someone has got to be kidding. I will most definitly miss your posts. I may not post a lot, but I do follow most of the major threads and have always found your comments,views, and opinions interesting to say the least. Please don't stay away too long. Drop an e-mail every now and again, just to let us know your still around.
Sincerely
Mary
This is the start of an article printed by former LAPD officer Mike Ruppert on his respected website dealing with the intelligence community and the drug war.
It has all the makings of a major box office thriller: Texas Governor and Republican Presidential contender George W. Bush and his brother Jeb, allegedly caught on videotape in 1985 picking up kilos of cocaine at a Florida airport in a DEA sting set up by Barry Seal…
An ensuing murderous cover-up featuring Seal's public assassination less than a year later by a hit team…the members of which, when caught, reveal to their attorneys during trial that their actions were being directed by then, National Security Council (NSC) staffer - Lt. Colonel Oliver North…
And a private turboprop King Air 200 supposedly caught on tape in the sting with FAA ownership records leading directly to the CIA and some of the perpetrators of the most notorious (and never punished) major financial frauds of the '80s. …Greek shippers paying bribes to obtain loans from American companies that would never be repaid.…An American executive snatching the charred remains of a $10,000 payoff check from an ashtray in an Athens restaurant…Swiss police finding bank accounts used for kickbacks and bribes…
Add to this mix the now irrefutable proof, some of it from the CIA itself, that then Vice President George H.W. Bush was a decision maker in illegal Contra support operations connected to the "unusual" acquisition of aircraft and that his staff participated in key financial, operational and political decisions…
All these events lead inexorably to one unanswered question: How did this one plane go from being controlled by Barry Seal, the biggest drug smuggler in American history, to becoming, according to state officials, a favored airplane of Texas Governor George W. Bush?
Although I find the topics you have brought up regarding the Bushes to be on point and germane, the most disturbing allegations for me are the ones concerning the Reverend Sun Myung Moon. I can think of few people that I would considr more of an embodiment of pure evil than the Reverend Moon (well OK, Sai Baba is certainly up there as well, but his influence in the Western world is less than that of Moon, although Sai Baba does have considerable cachet in Europe).
If you are unfamiliar with the connection between the Bushes and Moon please check out the story at, www.mapcruzin.com/news/news010301a.htm. I believe the author, Robert Parry, has a separate web site where he has photo copies of the Defense intelligence Agency's documentation of Reverend Moon's movement of massive funds into North Korea at a time, like now, where the State Department expressly forbade it. I am in something of a rush at the moment and I don't recall the address. This was contemporary with Bush senior lauding Moon in several speechs and in particular commending him and the Washington Times for their "balanced reporting" on issues in Washington D.C. and their positive influence worldwide through their media outlets.
The Bush family are in my opinion one of the most corrupt, dangerous and harmful elements in American political life. I am no great fan of Clinton (after all he passed NAFTA and GATT!) and I do not consider all the scandals against them to be the work of a vast right wing conspiracy, but the crimes of the Bushes are of a different order of magnitude entirely.
God is this site cheesy.
I liked it, and I thought that some of our readers might enjoy it, so we plan to establish a link to it. It does need a lot of work, and in time we will see what they do.
Really? I can't imagine what there is to like about it except in the vein of Chan worship. I think I toured the entire site and saw nothing in terms of a poker insite.
For example, in his interview about the 'interesting' tourney hand where he folds and lets stack one and two go at each other, I mean come on, what's the point? He doesn't even say what his hand was that he mucks in the small blind, nor does he suggest in any way that it was other than a random, unplayable hand.
(Nor does he offer any insite as to why the BB would call a raise and go all-in with T4 ? ?)
His narratives of the various photo's remind me of the old 50's - 60's Jackie Vernon stand up comic routines:
'Click: And here's a picture of me changing the tire from the waste down . . '
only the intellectually challenged fail to grasp a style that has made Chan one of the top two all-time money leaders in WSOP, amatures like you Nick need to get back and study tournament poker and techniques.
I didn't say Chan wasn't a player. I said his website is weak.
If you look at his site again, you notice they have a page on suggestions on how to improve his website, simply fill out the form what you think they can improve on, then Email them.
How in the heck do you get into RGP's site? I click on 'Favorite Links, rec.gaming.poker or whatever it is and it takes me to the news group but wants a sign on and password but offers no way to create one ?
http://www.mailgate.org/rec/rec.gambling.poker/index.html
It gets me there but what an awkward navigation system. There are no dates on the messages in the index. Seems impossible to find the top of a thread. And I can't find a way to locate the previous post of any current post - or the replies either.
If you had a newsreader, you could access it by clicking on the link (who says AOL isn't good for something?). Until you get one, you can read the posts here, but you can't reply:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&group=rec.gambling.poker
nt
Had a most depressing session of 3-6 HE last night. Played for 10 minutes short of 2 hours and did not win ONE hand. Nothing. Nada. Nyet. Bupkus. After getting QQ and KK cracked consecutively on the last two hands I played, I decided that a -$140 Statistical Cleansing, as SPM would say, was enough for one night and I went home. Didn't like it much, but part of the game, right? Even Ty Cobb went O-fer lots of times. I have had many sits where I go for more than 2 hours without winning a hand, but I can't honestly recall a session wherein I pitched a complete shutout before leaving the game.
Anyway, my Stu-dent(Stu is his name) is sitting around sweating the game while his wife was playing slots. He phones me a few minutes ago during a break from his normal noon start 3-6 game. He tried to 'brighten' up my day by telling my that just after I left last night, the next player sits down and about 10 minutes later wins a $250 hand with AA, and generally runs all over the table. So I say, "...and what's your point?"
He tried to convince me that had I stayed and dug in a little deeper, that I would have been the beneficiary of this largesse, and that I should have waited until my Cold seat got Hot. I just can't convince him that my leaving the game when I did had absolutley zip to do with the results of whomever took my place, one way or the other.
Would more articulate posters please post a couple of responses flaming either my Stu-dent or me for this thinking? Don't be gentle.
It's like when a guy says he just missed a jackpot by 10 mins. - hell if he were there chances are real slim he hits the jackpot as the cards just don't come out the same way when there are different players in the game. Just a slight change in the action changes the cards a lot.
I don't beleive in hot and cold seats just playing solid poker and hoping for the best.
Have Stu try this experiment.
Put a deck of cards in order, just like when they're first spread by the dealer. Have Stu shuffle them, no washing, 10 times (or 4, or 8, or whatever he prefers). Next, have him deal out 10 hands, with one of those hands having been stated to be yours. Look at the 2 cards, and remember them.
Now, start over. Instead of you sitting there, have somebody else sit there. Repeat the above procedure. Did the "new" guy get the same cards? Almost certainly not.
Ask Stu if he gets it now.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Lets say you are dealt 44 in hand 1. You muck pre-flop. Next hand you are dealt 32o.
Now lets say instead of mucking preflop, you mucked 44 after the flop. Do you think you will get dealt the same 32o?
It is very unlikely. Any change in the play of the hand (in your case keeping 44 until after the flop )causes the following hand to be different. The muck pile would be in a different order. Because the hand took a different amount of time the dealer shuffle would be different. There are hundreds or thousands of little events that happen during the current hand that change how the following hands will be dealt.
So there may be a hot or cold seat, but it is really random and except for maybe one hand, all future hands will be different.
Ken Poklitar
Your friend is right. You could have stayed. But there are ways to speed up the process of getting a cold seat to turn hot.
The most obvious course of action is to request a deck change. This confuses the cards and they will often mistake the current hot seat with yours.
If this does not work, then stronger measures are needed. After a full hour without winning a hand I openly declare "This is riduclous!" and demand a set up.
Occasionally, the cards will remain stubborn and refuse to comply. After two full hours of not taking a pot, I get up out of my chair, do a full 360 degree turn (to my right only!), and sit back down. This usually does the trick.
Should I ever go more than 3 hours without winning a single hand, I pull out the heavy artillery. One year while traveling abroad, I purchased 3 pounds of your basic mystic sand, which I always carry with me. I perform the ancient "luck dance" around my chair, sprinking this sand on it's seat while chanting "owa-tagoo-siam" It's important to be discreet and not let your opponents notice this. The last thing you want, is to key everyone in on knowing how to snap dry spells.
Rarely is anything more needed, but once every 500 hours or so, you can expect the cards remain stubborn. As a last resort, every time someone shows a big pocket pair that holds up, I pay that person $20 to change seats with me. (another reason to use discretion in the "luck dance", or they'll suspect you're having problems with your seat and refuse to change with you). After paying $20, 7 or 8 times chasing the pocket pairs from seat to seat, inevitably I will get dealt a hand that goes on to win my first pot.
Hey, you can laugh, but this stuff works! I am only stuck $14,000.00 so far this year. A full $6,000.00 improvement from this time last year. I don't mind letting this info leak out because I know Mason will delete it as soon as he sees it. Being ever the business man, he realizes there will no longer be a need to purchase books from 2+2. So I hope you get to this post soon. Good luck to you!
Kevin,
I read all the post in this thread, and your's is the only one that makes sense to me.
(I purchased 3 pounds of your basic mystic sand)
Can I purchase some of that sand from you?
SPM,...I knew my game needed something extra...
I used up much of it during last Friday's 15-30 game. I've placed an order for more. There must be an epedemic of cold seats, because it'll be 2 weeks before their next shipment. I'll keep you posted.
Kev
That's the funniest darn post i have ever read. I fell out of my chair laughing.And a owa-tagoo-siam to you. Lar
Ok so we can all agree that what seat you sit in makes no difference. However, I would speculate that here may be what happened: 1) Dunc sits in seat x. Dunc does not win a hand for 2 hours. Players routinely "expect" to beat him in hands simply because they have been doing so all night. His seat is "cold" after all. When he is in a pot, they are more likely to stay in. When he bets out, they are more likely to call. Because his seat is "cold", he gets sucked out on more, and loses more.
2) New guy sits down. He raises preflop with his AA and everyone, lamenting the loss of their "easy mark" shows more respect, and fold hands that might have ended up sucking out on the AA. Then, now that he has won a pot, people start thinking his seat is "hot" and folding hands that would have ended up winning. He gets sucked out on less, and wins more.
I don't believe in cold/hot seats, but I believe in other players perception of cold/hot players, and I do believe it impacts on your ability to have a winning session. Given this concept, had you stayed there and miraculously gotten the same situation as the other guy, you may have been sucked out on anyways, because after all, you were "cold" (not difficult in Edmonton given the snow we got yesterday; at least the Oilers are red hot).
David
Do you really think that most (any?) of the LL opposition that we face on a nightly basis could even TELL you who won the last hand? Do you think the fact that I or anyone else for that matter who hasn't won a pot for 2 hours bets, and their call/bet/fold decision is impacted by the length of time since we won a hand? Pleeeese.
The vast majority of their decisions are based on nothing more than "what do I have in my hand?" No question that some of the better players make better reads based on factors such as who raised and from what position, but these subtleties are lost on most of them, IMO. And as for the scientific side, just look at the clamor for the "hot" seat when someone cashes out with 3 or 4 racks. I just can't convince Stu sometimes that his most important task is to just keep making good decisions hand after hand after hand, and the rest will look after itself without all the mumbo-jumbo.
Psst, Kevin. Can I get a little sand, too?
Ok I agree with you that who won the last hand or what people have done during a hand is lost on most of us. But there is an easy way to tell who is "hot"; who has the most chips in front of them.
If you buy in at a 3-6 table for $100, and two hours later, you have 4 racks in front of you, people get intimidated. I've seen it, and I know it happens. If you buy in for $100 and your stacks slowly dwindle down, people notice that too.
While I agree that the most important thing to do is make good decisions hand after hand, I think you are underestimating table image in the equation, and especially the effect it has on low limit opposition who believe in things like "lucky seats" and "playing the rush".
David
Hey this is the "Other Topics Forum" right? And I know some of you guys are serious programmers
I am just curious to find out if anyone is interested in hiring a student to program in C++ for the summer? I haven't fully decided if I will actively pursue summer employment in this field but I wanted to find out if I had any opportunities available.
A little background. I'm a 4th yr. EE student who has taken classes in Pascal, C, Motorola 68000 Assembly language, and C++. I also have some experience with MATLAB.
Please email me if you would be interested in hiring a student this summer and please provide all relavent information. Currently I'm just trying to find out what's available. I don't want to waste much forum space with this post, so I think it would be best to email anything you may have. BTW, location isn't a concern, I would have to move for about 99% of the jobs that would be interesting to me.
Thanks.
Try Honeywell in Albququerque, (505) 828-5000. They real-time Avionics type applications. Lie and say you know something about Ada 95 too. They have a summer internship of EE students. You'll be a mile or so from Sandia Casino that has the biggest poker room in the state.
Does anyone know of a website that lists what poker games and limits are being spread and what the rake is at the various Las Vegas casinos?
There was a thead on rgp about this recently and unfortunatley, not one of the many sites listed in that thread had an accurate updated list. Poker Pages is especially bad with many rooms listed that have been closed for quite some time (in one case,for years).
Good Luck
Howard
PS
Lee Munzer did a great chart that was in Poker Digest quite a while back (that I keep on my fridge with a magnet). It has everthing you are looking for plus more. It is now a little out of date but I believe he might be doing a new one in the near future ( I could be wrong though).
There is a new Mark Glover thread on the General Theory forum. I figured you missed it since you haven't responded. No need to thank me for bringing it to your attention.
PS What color wine should you drink with steamed broccoli (yes, I'm trying to lose a few lbs)?
Heh, I saw the thread. So far, it looks like I'm not needed there. This one appears to be along the lines of the one where he took Lou Krieger (and his co-author) to task for saying, in reference to a hand like A9o (or thereabouts) something like, 'If you play as we recommend you will rarely if ever be playing such a hand.' Mark felt that including "if ever" constituted an unforgivable exaggeration since you might get free plays in the binds and such.
I would think broccoli can really team up with either red or white. My first implulse was to say red, but the more I think about it, the more white seems to fit. Try a side by side taste test? I don't know the whites very well. I usually just look for a decent chardonnay. A wine loving friend once recommended a sort of expensive mix, Camus Conundrum. He raved about it. I liked it, but don't think my taste for whites is refined enough to really appreciate it.
You could also steam the broccoli in wine. Then it will be the right color.
a really good white blend.
try a Reisling if it's warm where you are, they're great summer wines,will bring out the taste of fresh brocoli and the chicks love 'em.
Bro,
"I would think broccoli can really team up with either red or white"
With all the vineyards in Cal. take a tour and pick the brains who live it!!!!!
rcb
>>Try a side by side taste test? <<
gOOs idEa.. I Havent' devided yet, but i'M stil trynig. hArd to till whch is bettur. neeeedD more researrchh. wll try dto psto resulets when avaaalivvle.
Beerrt
,
I'm a 20-40 HE player making first trip to Tunica at the end of this month. Staying at the Gold Strike. I hear that the games are great and the hospitallity even better. Are these rumors correct? How is the weather this time of year? Any tips for the trip?--Thanks.
The herd of red birds arrived at the Hollywood stock yards, around, about, three-ish. The stock yard Boss, Uncle Bob, directed the herd to the 10-20 hold'em stockade. Every red bird in the herd had the s-p-m branded on their red bird hides. The other herdsmen acknowledged the presents of the SPM's herd, with a nod here, a howdy there, and in just a few moments everyone was greeted.
The Stockade handler, passed out two cards to each herdsman. Action was on the hoof, the herdsman with the best hand-ler, wins. Herdsmen lost fractions of their herds, while other's doubled their herds. The SPM was slowly increasing the size of his herd, when a dust storm came thru the stockade. The SPM's cards were all damaged during the dust storm. For the pleasure of pitching the damaged cards, the SPM had to release part of his herd to the Blind Brothers. The Blind Brothers didn't provide much service, they were more like tax collectors. The tax was staggering!
The negotiations for who gets the biggest herd, was at times a senseless battle of raise and re- raise. Herds of Red Birds would gather in the center of stockade, the Stockade Handler would direct the center herd to the winning Herdsman. The dust storm seemed to last forever, finally the SPM, enters some of his herd into the gamble. After the turn, the SPM had all the available outs covered but two. One of the two outs arrived at the river it was a flash flood. There was no chance to save the SPM's herd. Many of spm branded red birds got a new brand, after that flash flood.
Many of the Herdsman were from Any2card Town, a few from Border Town, and a couple of boys from the Valley of Patience. Gradually the whole stockade was packed with good old boys from the RWR ranch, (Reckless Without Reason). These boys, turned the heat up, on the negotiations for herd domination. The SPM realized too late, the stockade was plagued with hoof and mouth disease. Every time the SPM drove his herd into the center of the stockade, they would hoof their way to a new owner. Then after each hand the mouth of Whining Roy, he has a serious case of, random persecution. "I never get a break," the dealer, the cards, etc...When Whining Roy took a break, the mouth of Mr Replay, "now this is why I did what I did and why he did what he did and I knew what he had the whole way, he just got lucky...etc."
On the way out of the casino the Hoof and Mouth (H&M) police stopped the SPM. "Sir are those Red Birds from the 10-20 hold'em stockade." "Yes," replied the SPM, " "Those Red Birds have hoof and mouth disease sir," said the H&M police. "They must be burned up at the craps table."
SPM,...this hoof and mouth disease, sure feels like a statistical cleansing...
Internet Man a strange person sometimes called The Subburban Poker Man.
Here's some internet stuf sent in by SPD.
SPM,...next time you see Intenet Man you'll know it's me...
Enjoy, it's long, is it correct, I don't know...??? you decide.
1. The citrus soda 7-UP was created in 1929; "7" was selected because the original containers were 7 ounces. "UP" indicated the direction of the bubbles.
2. Mosquito repellents don't repel. They hide you. The spray blocks the mosquito's sensors so they don't know you're there.
3. Dentists have recommended that a toothbrush be kept at least 6 feet away from a toilet to avoid airborne particles resulting from the flush.
4. The liquid inside young coconuts can be used as substitute for blood plasma.
5. American car horns beep in the tone of F.
6. No piece of paper can be folded more than 7 times.
7. Donkeys kill more people annually than plane crashes.
8. One in every four Americans has appeared on television.
9. You burn more calories sleeping than you do watching television.
10. Oak trees do not produce acorns until they are fifty years of age or older.
11. The first product to have a bar code was Wrigley's gum.
12. The king of hearts is the only king without a mustache.
13. A Boeing 747s wingspan is longer than the Wright brother's first flight.
14. American Airlines saved $40,000 in 1987 by eliminating one olive from each salad served in first-class.
15. Venus is the only planet that rotates clockwise.
16. The first CD pressed in the US was Bruce Springsteen's "Born in the USA."
17. Apples, not caffeine, are more efficient at waking you up in the morning.
18. The 57 on the Heinz ketchup bottle represents the number of varieties of pickles the company once had.
19. The plastic things on the end of shoelaces are called aglets.
20. Most dust particles in your house are made from dead skin.
21. The first owner of the Marlboro company died of lung cancer.
22. Barbie's full name is Barbara Millicent Roberts.
23. Betsy Ross is the only real person to ever have been the head on a Pez dispenser.
24. Michael Jordan makes more money from Nike annually than all of the Nike factory workers in Malaysia combined.
25. Adolf Hitler's mother seriously considered having an abortion but was talked out of it by her doctor.
26. Marilyn Monroe had six toes.
27. All US Presidents have worn glasses. Some just didn't like being seen wearing them in public.
28. Walt Disney was afraid of mice.
29. The sound of E.T. walking was made by someone squishing her hands in jelly.
30. Debra Winger was the voice of E.T.
31. Pearls melt in vinegar.
32. It takes 3,000 cows to supply the NFL with enough leather for a year's supply of footballs.
33. Thirty-five percent of the people who use personal ads for dating are already married.
34. The three most valuable brand names on earth: Marlboro, Coca Cola,and Budweiser, in that order.
35. It is possible to lead a cow upstairs...but not downstairs.
36. Average life span of a major league baseball: seven pitches.
37. A duck's quack doesn't echo and no one knows why.
38. The reason firehouses have circular stairways is from the days when the engines were pulled by horses. The horses were stabled on the ground floor and figured out how to walk up straight staircases.
39. Richard Milhouse Nixon was the first US president whose name contains all the letters from the word "criminal."
40. The second? William Jefferson Clinton
(6)No piece of paper can be folded more than six times.
You mean: No piece of paper can be folded "in half" more than six times.
A piece of paper can be randomly folded dozens of times.
:-)
Look up in the www.2+2.com, it's a post, no it's thread, no it's the Internet Man, a strange visitor from the Internet, who came to 2+2 with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal posters.
Internet Man, faster than a miss spelled word, more powerful than an explanation mark, able to leap a tall capital T.
Internet Man, who can change the course of a mighty paragraph, bend questions to suit his needs, and who disguised as a mild mannered poster. Fights the never ending battle for any poster to be allowed to post any post or assassinate the character of another poster or web site at any time, night or day for any reason, good or bad or for whatever suits them.
SPM,...where did I hear this before, oh that icludes Vince...
Get out of here I'm sleeping. Do I need to call the N/T Police?
SPM...gocha...
I thought these were phenomenal!!
Golfer: "I've played so poorly all day; I think I'm going to go drown myself in that lake." Caddy: "I doubt you could keep your head down that long."
Golfer: "I'd move heaven and earth to be able to break 100 on this course." Caddy: "Try heaven. You've already moved most of the earth."
Golfer: "Well, I have never played this badly before! Caddy: "I didn't realize you had played before, sir."
Golfer: "Caddy, do you think my game is improving?" Caddy: "Oh yes, sir! You miss the ball much closer than you used to."
Golfer: "Please stop checking your watch all the time, caddy. It's distracting!" Caddy: "This isn't a watch, sir, its a compass!"
Golfer: "Caddy, do you think it is a sin to play golf on Sunday?" Caddy: "The way you play, sir, it's a sin any day of the week!"
Golfer: "This golf is a funny game." Caddy: "It's not supposed to be."
Golfer: "That can't be my ball, caddy. It looks far too old." Caddy: "It's a long time since we started, sir."
Golfer: "Do you think I can get there with a 5-iron?" Caddy: "Eventually."
Golfer (screaming): "You've got to be the worst caddy in the world!" Caddy: "I doubt it. That would be too much of a coincidence!"
well the peepers are peeping and the gobblers are gobbling in the hills around me, so I'm headed to vegas with a few poker buddies march 27-30
not looking to butt heads with any regular 2+2 er's on the felt, but hope to run into a few and would enjoy putting a face on some names.
guess I'll mostly be at the mirage and binion's, but imagine I will also do a little "star gazing" at the bellagio
if you see a long hair (thinking of wearing my "knucklehead" hat for identification purposes, but that could change) with smoke rolling out his ears while standing on the rail, it will be me, looking for the softest 5-10 to 10-20 seat I can find.
hillbilly- if I make it past the craps table that is :o)
Sent to the SPM from Big Al, an Internet story and a picture you must see.
SPM,...you will not be disappointed...
TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS!!!!
This is amazing...THE HAND
A picture began circulating in November. It should be "The Picture of the Year," or perhaps, "The Picture of the Decade." It won't be. In fact, unless you obtained a copy of the paper you probably will never see it. The picture is that of a 21-week-old unborn baby named Samuel Alexander Armas, who is being operated on by a surgeon named Joseph Bruner. The baby was diagnosed with spina bifida and would not survive if removed from the mother's womb.
Little Samuel's mother, Julie Armas, is an obstetrics nurse in Atlanta. She knew of Dr. Bruner's remarkable surgical procedure. Practicing at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, he performs these special operations while the baby is still in the womb. In the procedure, a C-section removes the uterus and the doctor makes a small incision to operate on the baby.
During the surgery on little Samuel, the little guy reached his tiny, but fully developed, hand through the incision and firmly grasped the surgeon's finger. The photograph captures this amazing event with perfect clarity. The editors titled the picture, "Hand of Hope." The text explaining the picture begins, "The tiny hand of 21-week-old fetus Samuel Alexander Armas emerges from the mother's uterus to grasp the finger of Dr. Joseph Bruner as if thanking the doctor for the gift life." That picture should be shown on every television newscast and run in every newspaper in America. It won't be. Why? Because it is a graphic reminder that growing in the womb of his or her mother is a baby. It is not a "glob of tissue," or "product of conception." That pre-born baby is a human being with all the emotions, will and personality of any human being. That picture says it in a way that a thousand words cannot.
Little Samuel's mother said they "wept for days" when they saw the picture. She said, "The photo reminds us my pregnancy isn't about disability or illness, it's about a little person." That's what it's always been about. That's what the media elite wants us to forget. And, that's why they don't want you to see the picture. **************** "The Hand" of the fetus. You can see the actual picture, and it is awesome...incredible. If you have the capability, here is the website. The accompanying story is also incredible. Get out the kleenex; here is the picture:
>>>>>>http://joseromia.tripod.com/bighand.gif
Three players left in the hand after all the cards are out. Player A checks, but before Player B can take any action, Player C bets out of turn.
Dealer tells Player C that Player B has yet to act. Player B, knowing full well that Player C wanted to bet the river, bets out. He had clearly seen Player C's action and heard the dealer's comments.
Player C says, "Raise." Dealer calls the floorman, who rules that Player C cannot raise because he had acted out of turn. Huh?
I thought the ruling was that if Player C had checked out of turn, and therefore possibly angled B in some way to induce him to bet a marginal hand, or bluff, for example, that then he was prohibited from then raising. But if he had BET out of turn and the other player then went ahead and bet anyway, why should Player C not be able to raise?
Also, just to check on policies elsewhere, if in this case Player B checked, C would be forced to bet, correct?
The out of turn action is nul and void. It was out of turn and dead.
The ruling was a bad one sounds like your floor came from the "Chicago Floormans school of bad calls" we get crappy calls like that here all the time.
:-(
Rounder,
Should the whole poker commuity read your statement, they might believe all that you write. Your facts, are clouded. Everything doesn't need to be done the Rounder way. I find only a little truth in what you say. All problems IL & IN poker rooms have are far over shadowed by the great action available.
Maybe you just need an small thinking adjustment. Try to see a half full cup of coffee, and not the half empty cup of coffee. What you seek, maybe what you find.
SPM,...still one of your best fans, we need your positive input...
:-)
These incompetant casino staff are costing people money. They do a crappy job and people still toke them as though they know what they are doing.
Take the old guy at Hollywood he deals 60% of the hands of a real dealer, he has no idea what is doing on but the robots still toke him like they do the decent dealers, then there is the witch who likes to argue with the players she gets toked too.
QUIT toking these jerks and maybe things will get better.
BTW - the action is not that great - go play at casino Arizona, Commerce, Bike and Hollywood Park (the real one) and then classify the "action" in Ill.
Rounder, Rounder, Rounder,
You are wearing me out. Your not in those places. And I'm sure the grass is always greener on the other side. My travelers tell me we got good action. So I will just need to keep sending you gentle reminders to look for the silver linning. I know we got some of it please come back and play we don't have any famous players. You were it.
SPM...waiting for the return of the Rounder...:-)
Sounds like the kind of ruling we get at Fxwds all the time. Maybe there should be table captains.
Mary
The text in each post runs off to the right of the screen, so you have to use the scroll bar at the bottom of the screen(going back-and-forth)just to read each message. Each post should fit in the middle of the screen. Wasss up?
I guess I don't understand this. The only way I see it on my screen (which is, in fact, a laptop) is to really narrow the size of my browser window to something I would consider unacceptable regardless of what I was browsing. At a "normal" width (at least for my laptop) there is no problem with text running off the edge of a page. (Though part of the right banners may be obscured.)
Can you make your browser window any wider?
Chuck
I didn't even know there were banners on the right. I wondered why my old computer is now at a complete crawl(8mb ram). I might need to consider investing some of the money I've made as a result of reading this forum in a new system.
Ed I,
Check out the post I wrote on eliminating the scroll bar and left column and download the third party browser Opera. Opera is great for old machines and uses very little memory.
Regards,
Rick
If Opera eliminates the left column, how do you get from forum to forum?
Ben,
Opera 5.02 is just a faster browser with some neat features you might like. You can eliminate the green column on the left (actually a frame) with the major market browsers (Netscape 6.0 and MS IE 5.5) using the procedure I mentioned in a thread below. In Opera, you use a similar procedure. Anyway, I have individual bookmarks for each forum in a folder of bookmarks devoted to 2+2. I keep it right on top the bookmarks (or favorites in MS IE 5) so it is easy to get to.
Regards,
Rick
Thanks. I'll try and get up the nerve. Its so slow now that if I don't change something I'll have stop reading the forum. Take care.
During a 50/100 HE game at the Taj Mahal this week an interesting situation arose: A player was handcuffed and arrested for making terroristic threats to the dealer. After commenting that he was "going to kill him" and then "no, im really going to kill you" he was arrested several minutes later.
Players are often disgusted or upset after losing a hand and the dealers are often the target of the player's frustration. In this instance, evidently, the player had had several other losing sessions with this same dealer. And, after a rather "bad beat" the player lost control.
Moral: be professional, respectful, and control one's emotions at the poker table or you could find yourself in a similar situation.
JCM
he should have been asked to leave sooner. but certainly should not have been arrested as those kind of remarks may be bad they are not assumed to be an accurate assesment of what the person is going to do. besides maybe the dealer dealt him two or three bad beats in a row:) also since dealers expect a tip when they deal you a winner shouldnt they be punished when they deal you a loser:)
of course im joking for those that read everything literally.
the secret to saying something like "no, im really going to kill you" is to have a really big sh** eating grin on your face when you say it.
they never see it coming.
brad
The screen is really getting cluttered up. I'm not a big fan of the new banner on the right hand side of the screen. I find it pretty distracting. Anybody else?
Just thought I would voice my opinion.
.
This is really quite ugly, if you ask me. I even got a pop up just now. Damn I hate pop ups. Publish some books, we'll buy them- just not this, please.
Believe it or not, we really didn't have much choice with all these banners. About.com, our advertising broker, insisted that we add them.
Chuck is working hard at getting the page realligned. We plan to make the left column a little thiner and then the banners on the right won't appear as cumbersome.
Mason, please don't become passive all of a sudden. This is the web site of two plus two, not some piece of fly by night crap like about.com (who have never helped my poker game). This is a challenge to the site's integrity. I really want you to stop this. I've been reading here for years, and I've always felt this site had integrity. I know the administrators of this site, including you, are not exceptionally internet savvy (nor am I). There are other advert brokers out there, please do some research. You would never allow the integrity of your books to become tainted, don't allow your website to become infected with multiple advertisements and pop up banners. It sounds like About.com has just semi-bluffed you, you already have a made hand with a lot of outs to the nuts.
Those popup windows are really annoying.
And all these ads...
Jeez is this a XXX site!?!?!
Anyway, my rightside banner is a friggin blur - unreadable. Not that I want to read it.
me too nick :) i see the smal ad on the top of the right column but the other 1 look like an adult Movie on cable tv that i didnt pay for....
For a smile from the SPD...
A little boy and girl were sitting on the porch talking, when suddenly the little girl winked and asked, "Do you want to get undressed and we can play doctor?" The little boy replied..... "You're so old fashioned' "spit out your gum, I want to play president
SPM,...times are hard, the market is shifting...
Market is in the toilet and SPM is having an identy crisis.
World is coming to an end.
:-)
From the SPD...
SPM,...enjoy...
OK. I guess it's only fair for the men to get a female bashing joke every once in a while. I have to dmit......these are pretty funny.
THIS IS FOR MEN TIRED OF RECEIVING MALE BASHING JOKES
How many men does it take to open a beer? None! It should be opened by the time she brings it.
Why is a Laundromat a really bad place to pick up a woman? Because a woman who can't even afford a washing machine will probably never be able to support you.
Why do women have smaller feet than men? It's one of those evolutionary things" that allows them to stand closer to the kitchen sink.
How do you fix a woman's watch? You don't. There is a clock on the oven.
Why do men break wind more often than women? Because women can't shut up long enough to build up the required pressure.
If your dog is barking at the back door and your wife is yelling at the front door, whom do you let in first? The dog of course. He'll shut up once you let him in.
All wives are alike. They just have different faces so you can tell them apart.
What's worse than a Male Chauvinist Pig? A woman that won't do what she's told.
I haven't spoken to my wife for 18 months: I don't like to interrupt her.
What do you call a woman who has lost 95% of her intelligence? Divorced.
Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same.
Scientists have discovered a food that diminishes a woman's sex drive by 90% It is called Wedding Cake.
Marriage is a 3 ring circus: Engagement Ring, Wedding Ring, Suffering.
Our last fight was my fault: My wife asked me "What's on the TV?" I said, "Dust!"
In the beginning, God created the earth and rested. Then God created Man and rested. Then God created Woman. Since then, neither God nor Man has rested.
My wife and I are inseparable. In fact, last week it took four state troopers and a dog.
Why do men die before their wives? They want to.
What is the difference between a dog and a fox? About 5 drinks.
I don't know if many of you will be able to help me or not, most poker players probably know more about divorce than weddings... lol, but I am getting married in Vegas in May. I'm even allowed to play poker on my honey moon!
Does anyone know any good places to get married? I have looked on the internet and the Monte Carlo looks the best so far with the Bellagio being the most over-priced (surprise, surprise). Any local tips would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Try Excaliber.
Groom To Be,
I attended a nice wedding at the Chapel at Treasure Island about six years ago.
Just how high are the Bellagio Prices regarding weddings?
Regards,
Rick
The packages range from $2,000 to $5,000. But What you get for $5,000 you would get for $1,500-$2,000 at any other place.
The Millennium Package at $4,792 gets you things like:
Bouquet and Boutonniere; Personalized Video; Lake Como Photography package; One bottle of champagne; one day spa package.
A few other things are added in but nothing special.
I read the two threads below complaining about the banner ads on the right and the new scroll bar on the bottom. Ads help support the forum but the annoyance and space they take can be minimized. To ease in navigation, you may want to try what I do.
If you are a frequent visitor to the various forums make separate Bookmarks (Favorites in MS IE5) for the forums you visit. It is easy to eliminate the green frame on the left containing the links and the cumbersome scroll bar on the bottom by using the following procedure:
In Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.50 or Netscape Navigator 6.0:
1. From the 2+2 Home Page select a forum and let the message index load.
2. Using your mouse put the pointer over the message index and click the right mouse button. You should get a menu with various selections.
3. Select “Open Frame In New Window” using a left mouse click.
4. Maximize this window. There should be no scroll bar and the link list on the left is eliminated.
5. Add this page to your bookmark or favorite lists using the normal procedure. You may want to edit the name later.
If you can't stand banner ads download the popular and well-reviewed third party browser Opera 5.02. With a mouse click you can eliminate graphics. The catch is that the free version has one fixed banner ad on the menu (for $39 it disappears). But it works well and is much faster than MS IE5 or Netscape Navigator.
And here is a link to the Opera Home Page to get the latest download.
My guess is that Opera may be incompatible or hard to set up with AOL and MSN as ISPs. It may also be best to have Navigator 6.0 already downloaded since the slim version of Opera can automatically grab plug-ins (for animations and stuff) from Netscape. There are favorable reviews of Opera on ZDNet, which also offers a link to download sights.
I find browsing with Opera much faster but it does clash with Forte Free Agent on my system. Maybe someone out there knows why.
Regards,
Rick
You are The Man!
I noticed the past few days the cramped space on the viewing window because of the banner ads down the right hand side, but didn't know what to do about it. I followed your procedure for setting up the individual forum sections in Favorites on a stand alone basis, and it works like a charm.
I'm not sure how it is going to be bouncing back and forth to the Favorites page, but it can't be any worse than going back and forth to 2+2's Home Page, I suppose. At least now there is more room on the screen to see everything.
Way to go, Geek-Boy!
In netscape, just go to edit-preferences and turn off java script.
If you can't stand banner ads download the popular and well-reviewed third party browser Opera 5.02. With a mouse click you can eliminate graphics. The catch is that the free version has one fixed banner ad on the menu (for $39 it disappears). But it works well and is much faster than MS IE5 or Netscape Navigator.
Mac users can download iCab for free. It's probably the best browser going (i haven't paid opera the $39). Banner filtering with a click of the mouse.
www.icab.de
I would also suggest that people use the Proxomitron freeware program. It is a powerful tool that you can customize to eliminate pop-up windows, animated gifs (used here), sound on web sites, etc.. It is free and easy to install and use. It can definitely eliminate all visual clutter on this site.
You can dowload it at:
http://www.davecentral.com/8597.html
KJS
I have a pretty nice collection of poker books, and only one of them has a bibliography. They all make it clear that you can't use any parts of their books without permission. But not many of them want to addmit they were influenced by anybody else.
I realize that they aren't obligated by law to give credit where credit is due, as long as they use their own phrasing, but so many other non-fiction/non-poker writers list their sources even though they "DO" change the phrasing.
Now even though Poker writers rarely want to admit they are influenced by other Poker writers, you'd think they could at least manage to give credit to writers outside the world of poker when it applies. Just for example, two of the more famous Poker books I have, that everybody seems to own, teach the reader how to do mathematical Combinations, but no credit in the back of the book telling where they got the idea.
Is this an ego thing?
In my books you will see many references to other books. Take a look at Gambling Theory and Other Topics. However, in our Advanced Players series we didn't go to books from other authors to get information, thus we don't reference anyone.
Sklansky, Malmuth and Zee are going to alternate writing a column for Cardplayer Magazine. Writing being the operative word here. The first article, written by Malmuth, is just another tired old retread. Can't you guys write anything original, even if you are going to write a column every six weeks! Do you need the advertising space that badly? I can't believe the Shulman's would even print anything other than original essays. Do they think they need your names in their magazine? Write something new and original or don't bother. Jeez, can you spell laziness?
Matt, perhaps you ought to consider submitting an original essay of your own to Cardplayer for publication. If they publish it you may rest assured that I and many others will read it with great interest.
Matt, perhaps you ought to consider submitting an original essay of your own to Cardplayer for publication. If they publish it you may rest assured that I and many others will read it with great interest.
What does it pay?
You're asking me?
I haven't even read these columns, but Matt - or anyone else - is free to criticize someone who does publish something. Who says we have to be able to do it better ourselves before we can criticize.
G
I agree. It's nonesense to say "You couldn't do better" or "Why don't you do it". When someone publishes something they are subject to criticism. Usually the criticism will come from someone who could not do better but that's the way it is.
Certainly anyone should be free to criticize published material. The critics themselves, however, are open to criticism as well.
Note that Matt Drudge is not criticizing the quality of the material itself. Rather he is criticizing the fact that it is not fresh material and he is attacking the authors on the basis of perceived laziness, etc. This is an unfair attack since he has no idea why they might not always be submitting fresh material.
In my suggestion to Matt, I am merely trying to give him a chance to think about how difficult it might actually be to come up with fresh material--especially on a regular basis. However, there are probably other reasons why the authors' columns are sometimes "retreads". I don't know the reasons for this and neither does Matt--thus his attack is unfair since he is arbitrarily assigning his own negative reasons.
If Matt had merely said that the material was a "retread" -- even emphatically -- and even that he thought it "sucked"-- and that he would like to see some new material -- and asked why the authors sometimes publish old material, I would have no problem with his criticism. He is free to review any published material in any way he chooses and if he thinks it sucks, fine. But it is not fair for him to ascribe underlying motives such as laziness to the authors and then to attack them on this basis.
probably m and s deliver as they are paid...new material...more money jmho...gl
Our plans are to post a new column on this site every month. These columns will then be appear a couple of months later in Card Player Magazine. Since most of the readers in Card Player probably don't visit www.twoplustwo they have not yet seen these essays.
I didn't read the article, so I cannot comment.
I do think all the authors fall down here; everything I read related to 21 in the mainstream articles is the SOS (Same old Shit) for example. The same for sports info. It's frustrating to me, since I could write 5 fresh articles a day for the rest of my life on stuff that noone writes about. Why is it so hard for all these other guys to think out of the box?
I personally think if you are going to rip an author; it's better to give concrete examples of what he could have done to make the work better.
Re: Poker. I know nothing about it. But there must be some kick butt promos in the California Indian Casinos, I would imagine. I know I could write a bunch of stuff about the 21 opportunities at these places, and my experiences.
A good many of the columns in that magazine are word for word reprints of chapters of published books. I do not think this is a bad thing. I get the magazine for free at my local card club, but the books cost $25.00 a piece.
I understand what Rick Nebiolo suggests to make viewing this site easier, but I prefer not to download a 3rd party viewer. That's my preference.
But it seems that I am not the only one who thinks that this site has way too many banners now. To be honest it is beginning to look very cheesy and it is borderline annoying.
Mason... I would like to know what you are planning on doing about this. You run a respectable company who publishes the best literature (from what I have read of 2+2 vs. what I have read from other publishers, I can make this claim honestly for myself), and that is why people come here. This site has the best information exchange that I have seen online, with the least amount of flaming and irrelevant bullshit on it. This is a big reason why I frequent this site, it isn't full of a bunch of stupid posts not pertaining to poker, and there is little flaming, just a free exchange of poker information. These baners detract from this.
I know you make additional money for the additional banners, and power to you for that, but when is it too much? What is the purpose of this site? To make money? To promote your books? To provide an area to allow for free exchange and discussion of poker concepts and ideas? In my opinion you should stick to the second two reasons.
Don't take this the wrong way Mason, I appreciate this site and your literature, I'm just trying to provide some constructive criticism of the new changes that have occurred on this site recently.
Currently theres 9 ads on my screen:
modernbride.com (twice!!! they want to be sure we dont miss it lol)
digital camera supercenter (twice!!!)
casinoprophet.com
Acekingclubcasino
Ebay (large 1 and horrible)
Cyberebate
about.com
is this a world record?
at least this time i dont have an about pop up...
woohoo!!!
I can't believe that somebody who basically posts a personal ad for their own economic benefit would complain about banner adds for 2+2's economic benefit.
.
Tom,
I was just looking for information with that other post. I wasn't even sure I was going to actively pursue any leads I may have garnered from my post.
Besides, this is a poker website, where people come to gain information and increase their skills so isn't every post a personal ad for one's own personal economic benefit?
This time I was just trying to give my opinion. I apologize for having bothered you.
You're correct and I certainly think your post was appropriate and yes we all try to derive at least some economic benefit from the site. The question is why do you come down on 2+2 for deriving economic benefit from the site?
I didn't mean too. I honestly didn't. Maybe I should have made that more clear. They should be able to make as much money as they can from this sight. I hope they do, since they have made me a bunch of money.
The point of my post, and I guess I didn't make this clear, was the banner on the right is the one that is buggin me. Put all the banners they want at the top and bottom, since they don't really affect what you read, but the one on the right hand side of the screen is an eyesore and it is bothersome.
It takes up surface area in an important section of the screen. I think that was what was bothering me, although I didn't clarify this in my original post. I'll have to be more thorough in the future so that no one misinterprets my point.
Two Plus Two provides a great service to the poker community with this forum and for that reason I beleive they should be able to profit from it. I have nothing against this. Hope this clears up all confusion.
I don't object at all to 2+2 having banners. It is your business.
I do not like the flashing banners on the right side that appear while I am reading messages. I find it quite distracting. Even the loud colors on the right are distracting. I hope you can tone the display down or not have it in the message area.
I kind of like it a few of those adds have pictures of some nice looking women.
Two things have happened. First, our advertising broker About.com insisted that we change our contract to add more advertising. Second, we were looking to add more advertising anyway. We probably wouldn't have added quite the amount that they did, but we definitely wanted to add some.
It has taken us a while to realign the site so that everything fits reasonable well, and that is now done. So the visual annoyance of the additional banners may not bother you as much as they originally did.
As for the quality of information that appears on this site, there will be no changes in that. The standards that we run our publishing company by will not be changed, and we hope that you continue to visit us.
I'm definitely sticking around. In fact I plan on buying a couple more of your titles in the near future. I also hope that you didn't get the impression that I don't think you should make money from this site. Far from it, profit all you can, you deserve it for providing us with such a great place to exchange information and improve our skills.
What I was trying to get clear, and I guess I didn't state this, was the banner on the right is very distracting. I don't have any viewing problems since I use a 19" monitor and have my resolution turned up. But as one of the above posters mentioned, the banner on the right is very distracting when reading the forum. The banners and the top and bottom... well they don't bother me one bit, although I don't see why Modern Bride is advertising at a poker site.
I too find the banners on the right to be disturbing when reading. Banners on top, bottom and middle do not seem to have this same unsettling effect. It might have something to do with the fact that we read the text of the posts horizontally but the right banner runs vertically---it seems to be causing a conflicting pattern of eye movements.
The SPM walked into Border Town, this week. Yes, it was his monthly visit required by some emotionally diseased little fellow from the SPM's past. Locked away in the mind of the SPM lives this little maniac. He gets out monthly and always goes straight for BT. As you know BT is were emotions are left unchecked and can run a muck. Hands that would normally be mucked, find their way into the action. The results are a for gone conclusion, the SPM calls these visits to BT a Statistical Cleansing. Once again, a statistical cleansing is when your hourly rate is greater than your ability play. A statistical cleansing adjusts your hourly rate to reflect the true hourly rate. Now a cleansing can happen in Any2card Town, The Valley of Patience, and for the SPM it's BT.
The SPM went to a therapist about a year or so ago. The SPM wanted to get some poker therapy. He wanted to discuss these visits to BT that the little maniac makes on a regular bases. The SPM's reasoning was a therapist might be able to find this little maniac and help him see the error of going to BT. Some how it was hoped the therapist could find a way to control this hidden little maniac. It turns out, all the therapist wanted to do was to get the SPM into Gamblers Anonymous. We were on the wrong page, the SPM, is not giving up poker until he's dead.
Currently Bathroom Man is reading a book by John Feeney, Ph.D., Inside the Poker Mind. Bathroom Man is currently on Part Four "Poker and Emotions." This guy Feeney must be a peeping tom, because he's in my head, and that's scary. I highly recommend his book, it probably won't scare you.
Boy, two paragraphs on a tangent, back to our story. What story? The SPM lost, he went to BT, received a colonic statistical cleansing, so what else is new. Next time don't give away the ending in the first paragraph.
All the hands looked beautiful to the SPM. The SPM called with rags, of all persuasions. Seeing 75% of the flops, he was in the action. The two cards he played usually were nothing and nothing to hope for after the flop. However, it did not stop him from calling to see the turn. The SPM decided to go in search of nothing. Loose & Aggressive was this weeks mantra. A statistical cleansing of the hourly rate.
SPM...is there a therapist in the house...
in border town...ask feeney about therapy for borderlines...a good reason to become a pro poker player...try DBT...gl
DBT...
Okay Souther Califorina what is DBT??? Thanks for posting back I've been thinking no one has been reading my tale of woo.
Got some luck in the Burbs last nitght, going to Harrah's today to see if I can save this week. I'll need a big win to save it but it is possible if Lady Luck shows up.
SPM,...hopping to leap some tall odds today...
nt
It's not your fault. I feel your pain. I try and try to play from the VoP but the "Other Players" never let me. Case in point: I played at Bay 101 in San Jose this week. Great room and atmosphere but tons of "Other Players!" Only opening was in the $15/30 Holdem so I knew I had to be patient. After mucking everything for 45 minutes I got AK suited on the button, seven callers to me and I raise - everyone calls! Flop comes AK5. BB bets, all call, I raise, all call! Turn is a nine and I bet - 5 call. Rivers runs another 5 and the BB bets - everyone folds to me leaving me to ponder why. I call and BB turns up 58 offsuit! I comment that they sure play different than the HCA players in Chicago. One gentlemen replies - you ain't seen nothing yet! And I hadn't -- every good starter I got was cracked off by the Border Patrol. Down six stacks I tilt and decide to play like the "Other Players." I hit a few rags and the "Other Players" say now you got it. I get even and then get hit over the head by the deck and go up eight! I knew the rush was over and thanked the locals for the action and left. When in Rome, or San Jose, do as the "Others." If the "Other Players" only played rocks this game would be so much easier.
SPM. As I see it, the game had been going for quite some time, players were stuck and playing hard, when you took a seat. That game was rougher than many 20/40 games. In fact, there were some 20/40 players in the game. You sat in, on a den of vultures.
Assuming you don't have any sort of gambling compulsion, it sounds like the therapist jumped to an unwarranted conclusion without taking enough time to listen and assess. Just keep in mind that therapists vary as widely as practitioners of other professions in their levels of skill and sophistication. There are many more mediocre and not-so-hot therapists out there than really good ones. It can take some looking. The problem is that the prospective client/patient cannot be expected to be equipped to identify the an excellent as opposed to a mediocre therapist. It's a conundrum. But ultimately you have to make your best guess, and trust you gut. A referral from someone who should have some idea about it can help.
BTW, I recall some interesting discussion of that conundrum in Janet Malcolm's book, _Psychoanalysis, The Impossible Profession_. It's also one of the easiest reading most entertaining books on therapy for general readers. It was first a series of articles in the New Yorker.
1. my commute time has been reduced by at least 30%
2. I know three people who have succussfully renogotiated rental agreements to lower the rent.
3. The gym is packed every night.
now if I can only hold on to my job this recession thing will be pretty nice for me.
just curious of any other posters have been spammed by the Queens Club Casino. I got message from Jake@aol.com touting this piece of crap site. didn't even have to go there to know.
Does anyone here have a guess as to what the average per hour AC blackjack dealer could make? Is it more or less then the AC poker dealers wages?
From people I know who do it, they average about $35,000 a year. More in Caesers, lees at Claridge. In most casinos, the base per hour depends on how lomg you have been there with a cap of perhaps $6. the toke rate varies and runs I think fron $10 to $15 an hour. MY understanding is Caesers dealers can make $40,000 after three years or so. It's not bad considering you can start at 18 years old after going to dealer school for a few weeks. No particular education or skill requirements. If you work a lot of overtime etc you can do well.
Just wanted to point out that there is some kinda bug in your message board code.
Intermitantly, after reading messages then hitting the back button to get the list of the forum's messages, the message list does not appear, but rather a blank white space with text similar to the following appearing:
= "000358"; var rand = Math.random() * 10000000000000000; var j = ''; var nlink3='About Hobbies'; var nlink4='About®'; var tgt='_top'; var top='
This started happening recently with the addition of the newer side advertisements.
P.S. Who thinks "Modernbride.com" is a good advertisement targeted at pokerplayers. Oh ya Mason just recently got married. :)
Has anyone seen any of the cheating protection videos? In the GBC catalog they offer a set of three by Steve Forte. I've heard good things about him, but they are fairly expensive. They also have a 2 video set by Richard Turner "The Cheat" for 1/3 the price. Any comments or reviews? Thanks, Scott
The Steve Forte videos will open one's eyes to just how vulnerable we all could really be...I don't think there is any trick photography here, but there just as well might have been for all these flawless illusions at the hands of an artiste. While you may not learn a great deal about how to detect such chicanery (because much of it is truly indetectable if performed skillfully enough), you will be all the more thankful for modern casinos and cardrooms after this viewing this virtuoso performance. Of course, an awareness of what is possible is valuable in itself, and while you might not be able to detect a manipulator of the caliber of Forte, you might stand a better chance of catching a sloppier practitioner of the underhanded arts after viewing this video.
Thanks for the review. I play in a $20 limit hand dealt lowball game as part of my prop job. Hopefully the really good cheats play at the higher limits :) Has anyone seen the videos by Richard "the cheat" Turner? They appear to cover most of the same material. Thanks, Scott
spm,
i finally got mason to cut you a check for your wonderful essays even if some are too long:). the check was for the standard rate we pay of $10 per word. the total was for $120,000. it was addressed to you, SPM at the valley of patience. the check was returned as it seems you are NOT a resident there as you may have claimed. the embarassment to me caused your check to be destroyed. bad break- cheers:)
.
This explains the 18 wheel Allied moving truck I saw parked outside his home the other day. The neighbors were all shocked. He never even said goodbye.
the check was for the standard rate we pay of $10 per word. the total was for $120,000.
Just curious which essay was this for? And why would you only pay for half an essay... What was wrong with the other half?
spm is an arteeeeest...we should not be limiting the extent of his palate...(sic)...but it is true an anthology being compiled is already longer than the compiled works of Byron...gl SPM...
.
Hey, SPM, Charles Dickens got paid by the word, too. You're in fine company. Hell, after reading some of your stuff, I reminded of Bleak House and the great names Dickens chose for his characters. Perhaps you might compile a list of Top Ten Poker Names for us.
John
See Mark Glover=Green Beer for answer.
th
Would it be possible for a poker pro to get unemployment checks and food stamps?
if SPM was governor..
Somebody,
It depends.
If you held a previous full time job with a company and you were either laid off or you resigned due to some personal business and now you are working as a professional poker player on your own (self employed), yes, you are eligible to collect unemployment for a period of six months. The maximum amount you can collect is $460/week depending on your previous income. Your best source of information is to call EDD @ 800-300-5616 if you reside in California.
If you are working as a full time professional poker player for a casino and you are receiving wages, then you are not eligible for unemployment benefits.
If you are working as a part time professional poker player for a casino and you are receiving wages, you might be eligible for partial unemployment benefits depending on how much you make on a weekly basis.
If you are collecting unemployment benefits, I believe you have to be actively looking for a job, which would cut into your playing time.
your prospective employer might be one of the players. Not bad, killing two birds with one stone.
After your six months is up, can you say you found another job as a pro poker player?
And if that works, then can you somehow get kicked out of your local card room, and file for unemployment again? That would kick @ss if you could keep doing this in a big circle.
By the way Someone, I dont live in Cali. But am thinking about moving out there to play pro poker and getting unemployment.
Also, if you get fired from your job in one state and move to another,(i.e. move from Mississippi to Cali) are you still eligible for unemployment in Cali?
By the way, I probably don't need unemployment or food stamps, but hey, All money is good money. Every penny counts! If the Gov't is dumb enough to give it to me, I ain't gonna turn it down.
Somebody,
I don't know the state laws in Mississippi regarding unemployment benefits but here, in California, the employer usually pays SUI (State Unemployment Insurance) to the state for its employees.
Now, if an employee was laid off due to lack of work or if an employee quits for a good cause, then he/she can file and will be eligible for unemployment benefits for a period of six months. The federal government used to subsidize an additional six months unemployment benefits so that unemployed persons can collect for a period of one year but it is no longer the case since unemployment rate nationwide is very low.
However, if the employee was discharged or fired for reasons other than lack of work, then a determination will be issued by the state concerning the claimant's eligibility for unemployment benefits in which case, if the ruling is against the former employee, unemployment benefits will not be paid.
To answer your question whether you can file for unemployment benefits here in California, no, you cannot since your previous employer is not from California. Funds for Californians are not given to Mississipians.
BTW, the government is not dumb. If you want to collect unemployment, they are going to make sure that you pay your way. No such thing as free lunch, you know. So as soon as you come to California, go get yourself a steady full time job for a year or so and make sure you don't get fired. Always be on your best behavior, be punctual and be productive so that you can qualify.
Good luck and hope everything will work out fine for you.
N/T
hey inquiring minds want know...did they comp your honeymoon to post here...might as well fess up now...we won't tell the wife...hehe...gl..you are dead meat now mason...
Recently when I print things, the tips of sentences on the right side get chopped off.
Somebody told me to go to "Page Set-up"(under file) and make sure the right margin is set at around 1.25". It was set at .75", I changed it to 1.25 and it hardly did anything. [I set it at 2.25 just to see what would happen, and it chopped off practically 1/3 of the page.]
Any suggestions appreciated.
I'm not sure but I think you should go to the top bar and press view, options, check the spot for wrap to ruler.this is for microsoft word.If you are using some other word processor it is probably something similar.
Under view there is no "Options." Under "view" there is:
toolbars, status bar, explorer bar, text size, encoding, source, full screen, go to, stop, & refresh.
I couldn't find anything titled "Wrap to Ruler." I have Windows 98
What programe are u using the only Word proccessor I know is Word or Works. So here is how to fix that problem. I am not sure how clear this going to sound. ( WORD)On the the top of the page u should a ruler type thing. If not goto to "View" and select "Ruler" Set your page view to either "normal" or "Page" this can also be done in the view menu. Then make sure the white area is between 0 and 6. you can move the tabs with the mouse. Check to make sure they are the only tabs by clicking "Format" and then "Tabs" the only thing u want is the defualt tab to be "0.5" after this is done then go to "File" "page set up" and set your left and right margins to "1.25" and top and bottom to "1" and make it apply's to whole document (look in the bottom right for that) Then while u are in the page set up menu there should be a tab on top the says "paper size" make sure it ready "8.5 by 11" after this done goto "File" then "Print" then in the right side on the top u should see your printer selected and then next to that a button that says "properties" Click that and make sure that the paper size is also "8.5 by 11" aka "Letter" and the orintation is "portrait". all this should fix the problem you are having. ( FOR WORKS) Everything is the same except when u go into "page setup" the tab that says " Source, size, & orintation" is where u change that paper size. GL any questions just ask.
>>>>><<<<<
OK guys---we have all had a chance to be cranky and grumpy about Modern Bride and also the religious banner ad.
But, who are some advertisers that SHOULD put an ad on this website? Which companies want US as their target demographic group?
Don't suggest anything bogus like: --legal advice from skp, --tax services from the Fossilman, --psychotherapy sessions with John Feeney.
Any ideas?
Smith & Wesson (for those truly fed up with bad beats and ready to do something about them)
Acme Iron Lung Corp. (In non CA parts of the country)
Pampers (on second thought, they'd get more bang for their buck over on RGP)
Prozac Inc. (for those not yet totaly fed up with the bad beats but merely trying to cope)
Cutty Sark Whiskey (won't stop the bad beats, but you won't care so much)
Mystic Sand USA (an alternative to seat/deck changes and new setups)
Angioplasties R Us (For those 16 hour comped junk food sessions)
1. massengill douches..to complement modernbride.com
2. steve badger's ten top hands of my career..
3. a definitive proof that nl he is tougher than limit he (with forward by M)
4. sheep i have known by Z
5. the abridged works of SPM...203,774 pp.
tilt aversion therapy with rocko and vinnie--- never play suited connectors out of position again.
it's been a beautiful weather down here in central california this spring. It inspired me to get a new fly rod and give california fly fishing a try. After doing some research on the internet i decided that the Calaveras river would be my best bet for catching fish in an uncrowded place that's not too far from Artichoke Joe's.
I must say that I was pleasantly surprised with my first trip. the weather was great, the drive was a little over 2 hours, only saw one other fisherman and I caught 6 nice rainbows. No monsters though, all the fish were in the 10-14 inch range. pretty decent fighters.
some differences I noticed from my montana experience: the hatches in cali are much shorter and sporatic. the fishing will be dead and then heat up for maybe 1/2 hour and then die down for another hour. also the fishing was definitely better in the middle of the day. I think this is because the bugs like the warmer temps for hatching. well maybe I have more info next week.
Keep reports coming.
Temps are important in triggering hatches.
Not familiar with the central part of state.
Days spent fishing are not subtracted from ones life span.
Thur and Fri temps to reach 50, I'll be on water. Skwala starting on Bitterroot, though I don't like all the boat trafffic.
Enjoy discovering the great fishing opportunities in Cal. Give the Northern part a try this summer if you get a chance. Some poker opportunities also exist. Good luck.
where abouts on the bitterroot. i might be there then if the weather does get good.
A friend sent a message that he did well on Sun. in the middle sections of river on Skwala patterns. He is also fishing today in the area of the weigh station, I don't know how he did. Talked to another guy who fished Bell Crossing Sun. Fish rising to midges,also caught a couple on Skwala, saw Skwala on the water.
I was on Clark Fork last Fri. Lots of fish rising but I couldn't interest them.
montanatu.org check fish report. Most shops in area post daily fish report. Makes it a little easier to track Skwala hatch.
good going Boris. there is hope for you yet. i designate you our central and northern cal. reporter for fishing. please take your job seriously or you will be fired. what flies did you use?
Had the most success with parachute adams. also got one with #14 pale, mayfly type pattern. got one with a beadhead nymph, not sure of exact pattern.
Boris, try the Yuba. It's been fishing well lately. Lots of people on it, but a hike should get you some water alone.
I considered the Yuba but after scanning through the NorCal bulleting Board it became clear that it is getting intense pressure and that there is some animosity towards us city folk going up there every week-end. don't care too much about the attitudes but I hate to deal with crowds. it seems like there are quite a few places to go so I will check those out first.
Forum,
The Problem with Evil is stated as such:
1) God is omnipotent.
2) God is wholly good.
3) Evil exists.
It seems to me that someone holding this belief is being irrational. Since to me all three of the above premises cannot be true.
Here is a brief essay on the problem with evil. Tell me if you find any way to object with my reasoning.
Many theodiceans contend that for God to give man free will it was necessary to give them the right to choose between good and evil, or that for the will to be free it is logically necessary to have a choice between good and evil.
I would object to this line of reasoning since God (being omnipotent and wholly good) is such a being that always chooses good over evil and has free will.
Another defense is that there are tasks that even a wholly good omnipotent being cannot perform. For example: Could God tell a lie? or Could God make a puzzle that even he could not solve? These are paradoxical since either saying yes or no gives us a contradiction of God's omnipotence or wholly goodness.
I contend that creating a being that has free will and also only chooses good is not a paradox. Of course if we say that it is impossible for God to create this being then we have a contradiction of omnipotence. But I see no contradiction in saying God could make such a being; since God could model the being after his own moral qualities much like he modeled man after his own image.
The last theodicy I will consider is that for God to be loved by man he must give man the choice to turn away from God, and evil is because man did in fact turn away from God. In other words for a being to love and be loved by another it must be necessary that the being in question could be wholly good, truly love the other, but still risk being unloved.
My objection to this last line of defense can be simply stated that if a person is wholly good (or as good as any human can be) and truly loves God, God (being wholly good) has no choice but to love the person back. Thus it is false to assume that to be loved one must risk being wholly good, loving the other, and still not be loved.
Therefore I claim that theodiceans are being irrational when using the free will defense.
Chris Villalobos
The question revolves around what is meant by ominpotence and truth. When speaking of ominpotence, I feel it is considered to discuss the natural world and physical things, rather than feelings or emotions. Thus, while God could (theoretically) summon plagues and natural disasters with the message "Love me or else", He is incapable of changing emotions in an absolute way.
This ends up in the question of what "true" means. The implication in the arguments is that truth is an absolute even beyond the control of God, and that does not conflict with my concept of God's ominpotence being limited to the physical world.
I suppose the last line of defence, in the end, is that these questions are too complex for the human mind to understand, not unlike the concept of infinity. In the end, its just better to think about such things as pot odds and heads up percentages. Otherwise, you might (heaven forbid) end up with a philosophy degree and be FORCED to become a professional poker player (being unable to get a real job).
David,
The usual last defense is to say, "God works in mysterious ways that humans cannot understand." But this is silly because it is no defense at all. It basicly means, "I don't know but I have faith so I will keep believing in a contradictory doctrine."
To answer your first defense that God's omnipotence cannot control man's emotion,I say this: If God can *create* man's emotion why can he not control it? I'm sure you would agree that man could not have emotion unless God created it just like man cannot see into the future unless God commands it.
If after reading this you still believe that God cannot control human emotion or any other human cognition for that matter, then you cannot say that God is truly omnipotent. Unfortunately, this goes against most theists' beliefs.
Chris V
The whole religion is based on faith. No one claimed it stood up to a scientific examination, least of all from me.
Then again, neither really does a swamp of protoplasm evolving into a society that creates a vast network of computers to discuss a card game stand up to scientific scrutiny either.
I know what you are saying, but I don't have the answers. Does it make sense that an omnipotent being would choose to restrain His omnipotence? Hard to imagine why...but I guess thats the argument.
I'm not saying that God doesn't exist or that a person is irrational for saying it is possible for God to exist. I cannot prove that there is or isn't a God and I certainly don't expect anyone esle to prove it to me.
I do claim that it is irrational for evil to exist given that God is wholly good and omnipotent. My arguement tries to show that God didn't need to give man the choice to be immoral (moraly evil) to ensure that man had free will. This contradicts what many theodiceans claim.
Given that God is opposed to evil and omnipotent it is immposible that God (as he is stated) would give man the power to do evil since the trait of immorality was not nessasary to ensure man's freedom.
Thanks for discussing this with me David, I'm working on an essay for my Philo 101 class and your input has made my ideas richer.
Chris Villalobos
"God is opposed to evil"
Is this statement true? God loves all, according to the religion, no? If this can be accepted, then it can be accepted that man's evil is not counter to God. Maybe? It is just another element of man that God loves.
Of course, you can get into the question of how an omnipotent God who is wholly good can know of evil and create man with a free will who is capable of evil, but then you are getting into 2nd year philosophy (those classes were good relaxation after International Finance and Statistics Game Theory).
If the subject of your essay is "Why must man be allowed to turn away from God in order for true love of God to exist", the question is whether or not truth takes precedence over God as a natural force. I am not sure you can call God's omnipotence into question in this situation, as our comprehension of God is based on our interpretation of Him as a more powerful version of ourselves, whereas the truth (if any) is undoubtedly something very different.
David "Ray Zee is MY god" Ottosen
It is my understanding that evil men do not go to heaven, and God did in fact kill most if not all immoral people in the great flood. In that way God is opposed to evil.
The only part where I deal with truth is where it is irrational for us to believe in a certain way. It is irrational to believe in contradictions.
The point I mention about love was that an author stated: It is necessary to risk being perfect and still not be loved for love to exist.
I show that this is not always the case for a man can be perfect (as perfect as a man can be in goodness and loving), and God must love him.
My point is that it is not necessary to risk the possibility of being unloved for love to exist. Therefore the author's arguement is false, and we still have the contradiction of evil.
CV
being as I am shortly recieving my degree in philosophy, and I know I do not have the mental stability to play professionally (I handle loosing well, however when things are going well, 3-5 winning days in a row, I start to get cocky, and when they inevitably turn around sometimes the cockyness doesnt fade)any suggestions???
Just curious. I know you were writing articles for Card Player some time ago and then switched to Poker Digest. Now I understand your articles are back with Card Player. I was wondering if it had to do with Card Player changing hands since Shulman took over or if you did not like the way things were going with Poker Digest.
Dice
I should not be answering for them but in case they do not answer, here is my opinion. CardPlayer is a wonderful magazine and does a great job of promoting poker. However, for top notch players/writers like Malmuth, Sklansky, and Zee the compensation does not look very attractive. Furthermore, a prolific writer like David Sklansky likes to write about a number of subjects that are not directly related to poker. However, CardPlayer is selective about what subject matter they will publish. For example, awhile ago David Sklansky wrote a magnificient essay on probability and evolution. I believe this essay should be required reading in our nation's public school system. He explained how fundamentalists misunderstand probability and erroneously try to use it to prove the existence of the supernatural.
At one time, I believe Mason Malmuth was a strategy consultant to Poker Digest. CardPlayer will not allow someone to work for both magazines. Since then, I think Mason is no longer associated with Poker Digest so CardPlayer will publish his articles.
At any rate, all this is speculation on my part so take it for what it is worth.
This really pisses me off. About 4 months ago I subscribed to Poker digest, because I looked forward to reading Mason and Davids articles every two weeks. And the first magazine I get, says they are no longer with poker digest. And im not gonna drop another $70 on another magazine. Im a college student and cant afford it. Anyway, I know you all dont want to hear my bad luck stories.
very upset person
Most players get free copies of both CardPlayer and Poker Digest from their local card room. However, both magazines have good articles by other players/writers so they are still worth the subscription price in my opinion.
I believe all the 2+2 essays can be found right here on this forum under the essay section with some even being archived.
I feel is wrong for the Iraqi paper Qadissiya to call W the "son of the snake".
I don't know how many people in this forum need a reminder of this, but maybe we could pass the sentiment to other players at the tables. Many times at low stakes holdem' at the Taj, I have seen veterans yell at someone for making a rookie mistake (betting out of turn, showing their cards to only one person after the pot was awarded, etc.) How stupid is it to scare away the calling station? After reading Nolan Dalla's recent Card Player Article about having proper social skill I can only agree. We want the new guys in there, mistakes and all.
come back please you mighty SPM..you are the only one who truly understands poker....these midgets of intellect just do not understand...use as maNY WORDS AS YOU NEED ...WHO REALLY LIKES A TACITURN INDIVUAL... jmho...
I am staying there in May of this year. Was wondering if anyone has played poker there and had a comment on what the games were like? Also does anyone know what the poker room rate is?
I played 7-card stud there in July last year, it was a low limit game. There was about three good players and the rest were average or bad. There was one hold'em game going at the same time but I didnt check it out.
It's been 2 years, but...
1-4-8-8 HE, 1-5 stud was all they spread. The room was nice, the people friendly, and the HE games soft. At that limit, though, all games are soft. I didn't play (the most excruciating limit on earth) 1-5 stud. No idea about the poker room rate.
Bill
Is it the fault of Capone?
Or Rounder???
Mmmm, maybe its uncle bob, maybe he knows wheres the spm...
Dang it, i need da spm on my morning coffee breaks!!
<<<<>>>><<<<>>>>
ddd
nt
I watched Rivera Live last night and observed a debate about a 14 year old in Florida who got life without parole for the murder of a little girl he committed as a 12 year old. I'm not familiar with all the facts of this case but apparently he was originally offered a plea bargain of 3 years in a juvenile institution and his lawyers turned it down. They went to court and he was convicted by a jury. His lawyer's maintain that Pro Wrestling shows are to blame and he was merely mimicing the behavior of the wrestlers. His lawyers also made the point that he is mentally slow. The little girls father and the prosecuters maintain that he showed no remorse for his crime and that his behavior indicates that he will certainly kill again. Al Sharpton was on the show complaining about how unfair it was to treat a 14 year old this way. He also stated that incarcerating 14 year old for life without parole reflects poorly on the USA. Sentencing young adolescent males (mostly Afro-American?) as adults seems to be a trend that is catching on. I haven't decided yet whether or not I support this trend. What do you all think?
I know that people always argue this same point but really think about it........ If this kid killed one of your kids or some other loved on how would you feel?!?!?!?!?!?! There are too many people in this country that are so concerned with criminal rights rather then victim rights. This kid evidently showed little remorse and wasn't willing to pay 3 years of repentence (I don't know if thats the right word I'm pretty drunk right now after playing some 15-30hold'em, then hanging out with my chick and downing some vodka). Since he wasn't willing willing to sacrifice 3 years put the kid away and throw the key in the fucking trash. These criminals don't deserve shit in our society and to feel sorry for a murderer is just plain sick. I hope those creeps like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson get haunted by the demons they love to protect. Criminals fuck themselves over-nobody forces them to go commit crimes- don't feel sorry for them. If they want to live in a civilized society then they need to live like humans and not animals.
If u remember correctly he did this while he was 12 years old thats puts him somewhere about 5th or 6th grade. They claim that he did not know what was going on. Reflecting back to those years for me I simple can not buy that. They also caught him lying about what excatly happened that day. I believe that he got into a fight with the girl as happened many times when I was that age and preformed some move that he learned watching Wrestling and then by accident killed her. I don't belive him to a dangerous person. It could just as easly happen anywhere. When kids fight people get hurt nobody wants to kill anybody but this was a misfortunat accident. I belive the defense turned the plea bargin down bc they thought the denfense that he was only 12 and didn't understant what he could do with the moves would hold up. Plus they thought that they would no hand down such a harsh sentence. When we used to fight we tired Wrestling moves on each other but never any dangerous ones. If he did one of those the girl could easly be killed. I am not sure the excat cause of death but I belive that what happened. How he should be punished is up to u.
me: of course soon all the leadership, er, i mean dangerous types, will be on mind altering drugs and then all children will be safe.
devils ad: columbine, san diego school shooter, etc., etc., -- all on these mind drugs.
me: well, at least kids cant be spanked or allowed to pray in school, thank go..., er, just forget it.
devil: look on the bright side, building prisons *will* stimulate the economy .
me: yeah, i guess we can import engineers from abroad.
His Mother made the call on the deal not the lawyers and it was a mistake not to take the 3 years. Boy, as a dad 12 is really young to have your life f--ked up forever.
I think Jeb Bush will revert back to the deal that was declined by the mother who should be the one in jail.
This crime took place in her home so she is responsible in more ways than one.
Lets say I create a robot and one day the robot goes out and kills someone, who is to blame?
We assume here that the robot has no free will (ability to choose right and wrong) and that the creater should take the responcibility.
Should we assume that a 12-year old child has a well developed free will and can rationaly choose right and wrong? I don't believe we can since I can bring up many scientific facts that prove children do not have the cognitive abilities that adults have.
Someone might argue that the child is beyond our repair and will kill again, thus must be locked up for life or destroyed. But this is not a punishment because the child was not fully aware that he was acting wrongly.
I argue that like the robot the child cannot be held fully acountable for his actions and the creators of this monster should be punished. Thus we should see more parents thrown in jail for the actions of their children.
CV
To blame the parents.
Yes, in many cases, I'm sure we can determine that a significant factor in a juvenile's crimes are his/her parents. However, it is still very common for a kid who has great parents to do something horrible. Just like many kids who have terrible parents never do anything horrible at all.
I bet you're not a parent, or you'd know that once they get old enough to crawl, you only have some control over their actions. You're an important factor, likely the most important, but nowhere near total control. Especially if the kid has any one of many different mental disorders, some of which are relatively mild, and typically not formally treated.
Look to the parents, and assess them for blame, but don't be throwing them in jail merely because their child committed a crime. A lot more than that should be demonstrated first.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Would you agree that the maker of the man killing Robot is responsible for the Robot's actions?
Chris
Yes, but that's irrelevant. The man creating the robot has "complete" control over the robot. children are not robots and parents do not have anywhere near complete control over their children. There are numerous cases where a child of a "normal" family has committed crimes. there was nothing the parnet could do. When I say normal I guess I mean where the parents loves and cares for the child.
I'm sure we can find a case where what seemed to be a normal child from a loving family did something terrible.
But I'm pretty sure that we can all agree that it is much more likely for a child to do evil if he has been abused or neglected.
Since you would say the creater and programmer of the Robot would be responsible for the Robot's actions; I can't understand why you would think a parent or guardian would not be responsible for a child's actions.
CV
Let's even assume a parent does not do a good job of parenting and the child commits a crime. Let's say the parent physically abused the child.
I'll bet you that in the vast majority of cases the parent was also abused as a child. So are we now to go after the grandparent as well?
Once a human grows to be a certain age society may say they legally control their own actions. Just because the grandparent did the father wrong it doesn't mean that the father now lacks the freedom to raise his children differently. Grandparents would not be accountable for their grandchildren's crimes unless they were legal guardians.
The fact is that parents *can* control their children and they should be held accountable for the majority of the child's behavior. We cannot say that the parent is totaly removed from the child's actions, but I agree we cannot say a parent must control every action.
I would think that if more parents were held accountable for their child's crimes we would see less children committing them.
CV
Many children and teenagers are NOT all that controllable, especially once they get into drugs. You have a point---to a point---but I think you are taking it too far.
I think many people will say I'm taking it too far because they do not want to face the fact that they could play more of a role in their child's life.
Maybe Phat Mack's post said it better than mine.
Chris V
There is a big difference between strong influence and total control. I agree that parents have much influence (often far less as the child matures) but I cannot see how this can be compared with complete control. Parents have a great responsibility for trying to guide and influence their children in positive directions, but I cannot see imprisoning them for their children's actions. After all, they are different and distinct people.
Because you obviously do not have any children of your own, or they are still babies. Please tell me if I've guessed wrong.
If you don't have any children of your own, or some comparable situation where you've been in charge of a child for a long period of time, you really can't know what you're talking about.
Parents have a HUGE influence on their children. They have nowhere near total control, especially once the children get past the age of about 8 or so.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It seems that we presume not having total control of something nulls much of our responsibility for that thing's actions.
Let me flesh out my Robot argument. Suppose I built a robot that learned by somtimes making the wrong decision. And one day I found that my robot had gone out and killed someone. (A wrong decision.) Can I tell the judge that since I didn't have complete control over the robot that I'am not responsible for it's actions?
CV
Do you have children? I'm pretty sure of the answer by now.
BTW, I don't consider the robot analogy to be pertinent. While they may do things you honestly expect, machines, no matter how complex, are not considered to have free will. As such, their actions are at least supposedly under your control 100%.
If AI comes along, I imagine we might have to rethink such things. At this point, however, you are responsible for your machines. However, designing one that kills doesn't mean you're guilty of murder, but maybe negligent homicide or some similar crime.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I now see the answer just below.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
If you try to argue that I have no children therefore we should reject my argument I will say this: I understand that having children is a large responsibility and right now I cannot bear the burden if raising a child properly. At least I understand that responsibility, but maybe you didn't when you created your children.
Sorry if the remark sounds blunt.
CV
It certainly sounds blunt.
And I'm very aware of my responsibilities. That doesn't mean that I think I or other parents should be punished for our children's transgressions, absent a showing of a lot more than merely it was MY child who did something wrong. Just because my child did something doesn't mean I had control or that I merit punishment. It may mean that, but not unless a lot more is shown.
Children are, at best, partially controllable. To automatically punish a parent because their child committed a crime is at least as silly as punishing a 12yo as an adult. While it may be merited, a lot more than just the occurrence of the crime needs to be shown to justify it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I agree that parent punishment is not nessasary in all cases, and falsely accusing a parent of neglect or abuse is very wrong.
But from my own experience, the kids that are commiting these crimes are mostly coming from abusive or negligent parents. There has to be some way to get the message across that if you screw-up your child, society will hold you responsible.
CV
>>The fact is that parents *can* control their children and they should be held accountable for the majority of the child's behavior. We cannot say that the parent is totaly removed from the child's actions, but I agree we cannot say a parent must control every action.<<
Your idea of control is vague to me. I'm pretty sure that guidance would better describe what you are talking about. I'm a little concerned about your point here Chris because the job of a parent among other things is to have their child reach the point where they can function on their own in the world and make their own decisions by the time they have reached say the age of 18. This implies to me that a parent must gradually let their child make their own decisions and offer the "proper guidance" on how to do this. I fear that your implication is that not offering the "proper guidance" will be construed as a crime and I believe this invites the govt in to a place we really don't want it to be.
What I want to accomplish is this. Given that a child commits a crime I can't see how it is logical that they should be tried as adults because they obviously do not have the cognitive abilities that adults have. I would guess most people whould agree.
But if we feel the need to give out harsh punishments, who should take the rest of the punishment that the child is not responsible for? The WWF? Guns manufacturers? Hustler magazine? Heavy Metal music?
No, we should involve parents (legal guardians) of the child in the harsh punishment.
Chris
Ok so what this would entail is to pass new laws. Do you agree?
I think that I understand your point now. Your simply against trying a 12 year old as an adult and pointing out the flaws in doing so.
I would like to see all children grow up in a healthy evironment. Any two idiots can make a baby, but I believe it takes an intelligent responsible person to raise that baby properly. Maybe holding parents more responsible for their child's actions will get this point across. That's my hidden agenda.
Chris V
I know I'm posting this late. The concept of holding parents completely responsible for the actions of their offspring would be at least bizzare. Imagine for a second (if you are part of our older generation or are very well-read) the consequence to the parents of Caryl Chessman. As it was, the grief of having this compulsive truant for a son killed them. And someone is suggesting that the government should have stepped in to torment them more?
I never said that parents have complete control just that they have a majority.
We can't say: "Parents have responsibility of their children if that child is good, but once that child errs then the parents have no responsibility."
CV
Way too harsh. The kid made a foolish and confused mistake. Evil? I doubt it.
'Pro' wrestling is a national shame.
Ez call. Review his other behavior. Has this kid made a past habit of runins with the law? If he already has a long record of bad behavior, let's cut our losses and keep him off the streets.
i followed case on tv.i beleive it was an accident.but lets face it this country has gone bonkers .there are 14 kids in florida adult jails.i dont think this kid had any priors .of cause i came from a diffrent background too . only thing i ever got caught at was raiding somebodys orchard to steal apples .my father wouild have killed me for any thing worse .there was olso another case yesterday where a boy shot his brother by accident .of cause prosicutors went for it .he faces 22 years 16 yrs old .his parents fogave him why cant we ??.now they have lost both there children .another thing i notice and it sticks out like a sore thumb all thesr kids are BLACK yep the place has gone bonkers .
Once our society decides throwing away 12-year-olds is OK, we're all fucked. This is a worse indictment of our judicial system than the freeing of 100 guilty men.
JG
....But Im just an Englishman... so what do I know?
Cheers,
Keith
It depends.
I really do believe that some people merit disposal, either through the death penalty or permanent exile in prison. Whether a 12 yo would ever merit such treatment, I'm not sure. However, if I were convinced that this kid was LIKELY to kill or seriously harm others again, no matter what sort of treatment he received, I would not necessarily object to his "disposal".
Once somebody has intentionally done something harmful enough to others, it becomes incumbent upon them, IMO, to prove that it is safe to return them to society. Without sufficient proof, they should not be given an opportunity to further harm others. Again, whether this standard should apply to 12 yo kids, I'm not sure. I don't know enough about the intellectual and moral capabilities of a typical 12 yo, nor the capabilities of this particular kid.
As a further concept, consider the "insanity" defense to crimes like murder. Personally, I don't care if the person is insane or not. IMO, the issue is the likelihood that they'll kill (or harm) again. If it's likely, then they need to be prevented, no matter what their mental state is/was at the time of the crime. IMO, their mental state should only impact the manner in which we deal with them, not whether we deal with them.
You have to pick one of 2 people to be your neighbor. The first is a guy who was locked up in a mental institution for a period of time for murder, but you are told he is now OK and no longer suffering from the mental state that caused him to kill, and he thus has been released. The second guy is out on parole for murder. He has now and has never had any mental problems, he is merely amoral and used to be a contract killer for hire. Other than killing anybody if paid enough, he never has done any other crimes. I'd pick the contract killer, because I have no reason to fear he would ever harm me or my family, as there is no reason to think anybody would ever pay him. On the other hand, with the ex-mental patient, I'd always be wondering if his cure were permanent.
Enough rambling. I'm sure I've contradicted myself somewhere in there, or at least said something stupid. However, I'm too lazy to go through it carefully, so flame away.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
nt
.
If one innocent person is "disposed" of, then surely it invalidates the whole process.
Someone who is mentally ill is not a criminal. I just find it very hard to accept a 12 year old can premeditately set out to kill someone. If he is ill, he should be treated, not locked away in some adult institution.
And as for the death penalty... In the UK we dont have the death penalty, and our murder rate is alot lower than the Untited States. We also have strict gun control, and incidents of gun crime are very rare. Our regular cops dont even carry guns.
Well, just my point of view,
Cheers,
Keith
IM WITH keith what do us limeys know . ilive in states now.
well, if you dont have guns of course your 'gun crime' is going to be lower.
the thing to look at is violent crime. is the violent crime (rate) more or less in UK?
i think everyone would agree with the stats that violent crime has exploded in australia, where they recently confiscated all guns.
brad
We're not necessarily in disagreement. I would never argue that a kid like this shouldn't be treated, or should be put with adults in a general prison. I might argue, if the facts convinced me, that he should never be released. The fact that somebody MIGHT not kill again wouldn't mean to me that they should be free, if they are determined to be likely to kill (or attempt) again.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In some ways I agree with your position in general; however I would add some caveats and my own personal views.
I believe the only valid reason for something as extreme as the death penalty is preventing a truly dangerous and incorrigible person from killing again. Take the case of Jeffrey Dahmer. Based on insanity, he was imprisoned rather than executed or committed. My view is that he fit the rare instance where he should have been elimiated to protect society, and punishment has absolutely nothing to do with it.
However, in almost all other cases, I am opposed to the death penalty, in part because it is irreversible and in part because, even if merited somehow, such powers have historically been misused and abused and it is asking a great deal to have that much confidence in a judge and jury.
In the case of the 12-year old above, I view the prosecution's offer of plea bargain of 3 yrs. in a juvenile rehab. center vs. trial for murder with no parole if convicted as ill-balanced and coercive. It also leads me to seriously question to what extent the prosecution fully believed their claim that this child was likely to kill again.
Once Dahmer was in the society of prison, that society needed no protection from him. Quite the opposite. As I would guess you know, he was killed after being put into general population by another inmate.
The people who tend to prey on society in manners that we find most shocking and do it repeatedly and successfully are generally not much of a threat to anyone in the confines of prison. I'm thinking here of child molesters and serial rapists and killers.
If the argument is that some people are bad and society needs to be protected from them (this is certainly a given from me), therefore the death penalty should be used to make sure they don't hurt anyone else; then it is faulty. Life in prison protects society (at large) just as well without the danger of killing innocents, and there is no society in prison that is threatened by them.
Certainly there are exceptions. Pee Wee Gaskins in South Carolina was one. He was a serial sex killer who also preyed on many inmates. The state electrocuted him for killing a man who was already on death row. There is a man in Colorado who may be similar (I can't remember his name, I believe the initials are MH), where he is claiming to have killed 23 or 24 people many of them in prison. He is currently "volunteering" for the death penalty.
However, if we are all that concerned about violence in prison and the safety of the prison community, which we aren't, then many of those who are a threat to inmates in the prison would not be given a blind eye by the administration and prison rape would be a problem that would be seriously handled and not a bad joke.
While the idea of "future dangerousness" looms large in the mind of many who support the death penalty, the American Psychiatric Association has discredited all attempts to determine it. Studies have shown repeated failure in attempts to predict it.
An example is Dr. James Grigson's (also known as Dr. Death, he did the psychiatric reports on many of the death penalty eligible inmates in the Department of Criminal Justice) testimony on Randall Adams. He called Randall Adams a sociopath, "you can't get any lower on the scale than that", and a continuing danger. Randall Adams was innocent; he has been free 10 years, and has not stepped foul of the law. Dr. Grigson has since been stripped of his license.
The death penalty is an instrument of revenge. And one that is arbitrarily wielded.
I agree with much of what you wrote, Tony. If, however, Dahmer had had a slightly different makeup perhaps the inmates would have had to be protected from him rather than the other way around. I agree especially with the last two sentences in your post, but in the cases of the few like Dahmer, sick serial killers, I would view their elimination as being more along the lines of eliminating a rabid dog. As I may have stated, these are the only type of cases where I think the death penalty should even be considered, and then only for the reason of protecting others.
Let me guess........ You're a bleeding heart liberal.
Right-wing gun nut. I don't see that being conflict tho with a system of justice based on something other than revenge.
JG
Goat is using the "Argument Against the Person" (ad hominen circumstantial) fallacy in hopes that it will be sufficient to reject Jim's statement.
CV
I didn't say I was trying to prove anything wrong did I? This is a discussion of opinion of what we think some killer deserves in terms of punishment. Few if any of us will change our minds based on what others say (although I agree this is a special case). Anyway I was just taking an educated guess that he was a bleeding heart liberal- so my statement/question was just an observation, not an attack.
This was no accidental death; the girl was savagely beaten and stomped.
And it was the killer's MOTHER(not attorneys; who were all for it) who turned down the slap on the wrist plea bargain. Plus, Momma is a law enforcement officer who was sleeping when she should've been watching the kids.
His age is irrelevant; this act was so heinous that in IMO it permanently 'warped' his personality; an almost 'incepient' sociopathy, that makes him for too dangerous to live free in society.
I also think Momma should be decertified as a peace officer and tried for negligent homicide(as should all the cops in the Columbine debacle, but that's another thread).
It's because I'm a parent that I don't think we should throw away 12 year olds.
JG
"savagely beaten and stomped"--very bad, I agree, but that in itself does not convince me that he intended to kill. When I was in a large junior high school and high school I was aware that there were numerous fights, some quite brutal and vicious which could have resulted in death if fate had taken a strange twist.
A twelve-year old lives half in a dream-land anyway (while we as adults live perhaps one-sixth or so in a dream-land :_))
A friend and I were discussing this and he told me that the girl who was killed was much smaaler and/or younger than the 12-year old boy. As I've said, I do not know many of the facts in this case and in fact the first awareness of it I gained was from this forum.
If indeed the boy was older and much larger it makes it all the worse of course, and what you say might be possible regarding "warping" his personality--I don't know. Bur if he had killed hidss parents in cold blood, would he still be tried the same way? I still feel that 12-yrs old is far from being an adult and that this must be considered. Trying someone as an adult is one thing if they are nearly an adult, but no 12-yr. old is nearly an adult.
n.t.
well, we decided to throw large segments of our society to the wolves a long time ago; now we have to deal with the fact that some of them choose not to be eaten.
brad
ps 100 guilty men are *supposed* to be set free; its the imprisonment of 1 *innocent* man that is *supposed* to be a tragedy.
One needs only to read the posts here to see how far removed US society has come from any notion of a criminal justice system based on any sense of morality and mercy. It seems that today's system has become an institutionalized form of revenge, and that is how certain people like it. For a supposed "Christian" society, it is awful to see how so many ascribe to ideas that separate those into wanted and unwanted, deserving of life and undeserving of life. To see people use words like "disposal" and "destroyed" to euphemise the state murdering its own citizens shows, IMO, the level of separation between killing and morality that exists throughout our political dialogue today. I personally do not want to live in a state that gives up on people, especially those that committ horrific crimes at a young age. I would much rather see society make and effort and fail than give up on its own citizens. To do so, IMO, shows a callousness that will reverberate throughout society and cause even more damage.
KJS
Good post. I agree completely.
Watching as a bit of an outsider (from Canada) I am always amazed at how "religion" plays such a big role in US life and yet the actual running of the country is so diametrically opposed to those same religious beliefs.
This hypocricay regarding religion is one of the main reasons I am agnostic, aside from the fact that I lean towards atheism as well.
In the US, a President doesn't have a chance of being elected if he does not have a strong religious belief (whether real or apparent doesn't seem to matter). In Canada and Great Britain for instance a politician is better off to keep his religous views to himself.
With respect to this particular issue, I think there is no question that the 12 y.o should not be treated as an adult. A 12 y.o does not have the mental capacity to plan and commit a murder and to also realize the consequnces of what he/she is doing. It is very similar to how people with mental problems are treated. In the particular facts of this case it seems that the 12 y.o. did not "intend" to kill the girl. But we always must remember that we do not have all the information. Relying on newspapers, t.v., etc. will get you in trouble.
I agree with the underlying theme of your post. I also find it ironic that you fail to see how diamterically opposed it is with the socialist viewpoint that you usually espouse.
The original US Constitution WAS based on a system of morality that protected the individual from the whims of the state and the elected majority. (Although I am not sure that mercy ever had anything to do with it, other than by extension from it's religious roots).
Socialism, on the other hand, has as its moral foundation the premise that individuals can (and should) be sacrificed at the altar of the utilitarian ideal. If the majority of our society feels safer and gains economic utility by taking the hardline against violent offenders, regardless of their age, then so be it. Politicians who bow to this majority will be elected and pass such laws. It is entirely consistent with democratic statism.
This ideal of the rights of the many reigning supreme over the rights of the few seems to work for you on most other issues such as taxes, wealth redistribution, and gun control.
Give the state an inch and they will take the ultimate yard.
Michael,
Very thought provoking response.
I agree with many of the premises of Socialism because I feel its ideals, if abided by, would create a more just and ethical society than laissez-faire capitalism. Certainly, an adoption of a socialist system would mean that certain people would have more control over certain parts of their lives (worker's rights) and certain people would have less control over certain parts of their lives (handgun owner's rights, assuming handgun control was part of a platform, if not, say a person's ability to avoid progressive taxation). The way I analyze our current state of affairs is that certain people already don't have control over certain aspects of their lives. Onre reason may be that the people in government in the US don't believe that libertarianism includes an ethical compass that would result in a society they want to live in. In many ways, almost entirely economic (besides gun control, but I don't want this to be about that), neither do I. For instance, I don't think that an employer should be free to pay someone 5 cents an hour just because he can find someone desparate enough to take it. If this constitutes "a sacrafice at the altar of the utilitarian ideal" so be it. I call it economic justice.
It may be idealistic of me to believe that as a society we can reach a point where we value all of our citizens enough not to kill them or let them rot in jail for their acts, however awful. Even if this position is the minority, I feel it is the ethical one, and I would do a lot to get things moving in this direction even above the protest of a majority of Americans. That is how social change has always happened in this country. In matters of right and wrong, I do believe in ideals more than how many people agree or disagree. The question of how to treat a 12 year old who killed someone is a question that transcends economics. That is why I may have failed to recognize how it is related to my economic beliefs.
KJS
What do I think? I think that ever since that player walked from the Mirage, got into a traffic altercation out front, and shot a motorist to death---I have had some questions about American jurisprudence. That "player" was back playing cards, two weeks later. It was as if, he never shot an unarmed man to death, right outside the joint. At the time Oscar Goodman was practicing law, and the guy never did a day.
A12 year old doesn't have the physical development, mental development, mental ability, education, experience, or maturity to be held resposible for his actions as an adult.
A 12 year old, however, does have adults in his life: parents, relatives, neighbors, educators, and civic leaders. By treating the 12 year old as an adult, we can mitigate the responsibilty for his behavior held by the real adults in his live. We can all sleep a little better tonight knowing that there is no way we can be held responsible for the actions of the community's children. After all, the life sentence proves his complete responsibility.
cv
As far as the specific case you related, while I don't know the details, to me the idea of trying someone as an adult for a crime committed at the age of 12 is unsound, and the notion of life without parole in this instance is preposterous. I think the prosecutors should be ashamed of themselves. A 12-year-old is certainly not an adult and certainly cannot be considered incorrigible. He could have been 18 instead of 14 when tried; the incident took place at 12, and that is the only logical age to base the trial upon. If it was an accidental death and the child was merely roughhousing too much it is a tragedy. If he intended to hurt the other child it is worse but I doubt very much that he intended to maim or kill. He may be slow-witted and not express remorse in the manner the court would like to see but that does not necessarily mean that he does not have remorse. Even if he did intend to inflict serious injury he is still not an adult at 12 years old. Why the prosecutors chose to aim for murder rather than manslaughter at most puzzles me in this case.
Throwing away the key for a child' actions -- and 12-years old is a child -- is barbaric and a travesty of our judicial system. It is also a reflection of the revenge motif at work. Punishment as revenge should have absolutely no place in our judicial system. Revenge is a barbaric and primitive part of the human psyche and as a society we are far too fond of it. Deterrence, prevention, rehabilitation, etc.---these may be at times worthy purposes for some form of punishment, but revenge is a baser instinct which serves no useful purpose towards the end of making things better and generally results in making things worse.
As far as the general trend towards trying teenagers as adults, I think it should depend to some extent upon the age at the time of the crime as well as the heinousness of the crime. A 17-year old who commits premeditated murder and has a history of being a street mugger is one thing; a 12-year old who may have accidentally killed someone in a fight is quite another.
I think this also speaks very loudly and poorly of the prosecutors in this case. Aiming for such a punishment shows a callous indifference to this child's life. How they could be truly convinced that this 14-year old will kill again also baffles me.
To those who would ask or wonder, what if it was your child? --- and like questions, I will say that it is indeed a terrible tragedy. Why then make it two tragedies?
I am reminded by this of the Middle Ages, and perhaps even more recently, when young children could be hanged for theft, and even dogs were considered criminals and were sometimes tried as were humans and then hanged for offenses such as stealing food. Of course this is different, but overall, it reminds me of a similar harshness and ignorance on the parts of those who would hand down such sentences, especially to true children.
The fact that the state offered a plea bargain of 3 years in a juvenile rehab center might provide a rough guideline as to how seriously the state viewed the matter. If they truly considered the child an incorrigible murdering monster, wouldn't they have been unlikely to have offered such a light deal? Yet they threatened to try him for life without parole if their deal was not accepted. This appears to me to be an abuse of power.
Further, this consideration makes it hard for me to believe that the prosecution really believed their own position fully during the trial. The more I think about this, the more disgusted I become and the more likely I feel it is that the prosecution is guilty of moral and ethical, if not legal, crimes in this case. Whether such abuse of power should in itself be a crime is another issue, but my sense of fairness and humanity is seriously affronted by this. If indeed the prosecution did not fully believe their own stance during the trial (that the child would kill again--and how could they, if they had offered the plea bargain above) and maneuvered a child into life in prison amongst older, hardened criminals in order to prove a point or to save face, those responsible on the prosecution team should quite possibly be the ones serving time, or at least be disbarred. If abuses of power such as this appears to be aren't crimes, they should be.
While I feel that this case resulted in what is probably a tragedy, and while I seriously question the stance of the prosecution, I am aware that I do not know all the facts and neither do I know the full law. I do have a few related questions which I hope you might be able to shed some light on, even though I know this in not your legal area of expertise.
1. Does the offered plea bargain in this case strike you as inconsitent with the full trial aim of the prosecution, and does it strike you as potentially coercive?
2. Does the apparent inconsistency (to me, anyway) increase the chance that the prosecution may have not fully believed their own view that the child was likely to kill again?
3. Speaking in general now, it is my understanding that the role of the state prosecutor is supposed to be that of fact-finding and fact-presenting with no withholding of evidence that could help the defense and with the sole goal of determining the truth rather than having a bias towards aiming for a conviction. Why does it appear to the general public that prosecutors are generally intent on convictions? Why also do they generally appear to aim for very high-end punishments? Is there something wrong with the system, such as perhaps that a higher conviction rate or greater number of convictions means career advancement, which could encourage conscious or subconscious bias on the part of the prosecutors?
4. Finally, do you feel that there is a significant amount of abuse of the system along such lines, including offering unbalanced, coercive plea bargain options with Draconian alternative punishments looming over the heads of the accused should they choose to risk a full trial? And should these types of issues perhaps be addressed with the aim of remedy if a significant amount of abuse along these lines is found to take place in our judicial system?
M wrote: "even though I know this in not your legal area of expertise."
This is an understatement at best. I've never dealt with criminal law outside a class at law school. What I discuss below is basically all second hand knowledge, and may be all wrong.
"1. Does the offered plea bargain in this case strike you as inconsitent with the full trial aim of the prosecution, and does it strike you as potentially coercive?"
Yes and no. I believe (and my easily be wrong) that such situations are common. The prosecutor will typically decide what the appropriate punishment is for the accused, and negotiate toward that end. Initially, they'll offer a tougher punishment, and then maybe ease toward their minimum. However, I am pretty sure that the general rule is if no deal is reached, the prosecutor will go after the maximum crime/penalty at trial, with the only caveat being that going too far will hurt their credibility with the judge. Other than that restraint, they go for the maximum if it comes to a trial.
Another common bargaining tactic is the presence/absence of lesser included offenses in the charges at trial. For example, if you're on trial for 1st degree murder, in some jurisdictions the judge can or must instruct the jury in the lesser offenses, such as 2nd degree murder and manslaughter. Thus, the jury can convict for a lesser crime instead of the greater. However, in some jurisdictions the prosecutor chooses the crimes in which to instruct the jury. Also, the defendant has the option, in some jursidictions, to waive the lesser included offenses, and have the jury instructed in the greater offense only (thus, it's all or nothing in the jury room). This way a jury can't feel the man is guilty and deserves something despite the prosecutor maybe not fully proving every element of the greater offense. Of course, if the prosecutor or defendant play these games, it can cause severe problems for the loser of the game. Many defendants have been convicted of 1st degree murder when they probably deserved something less, but the jury decided to convict them of this rather than let them go free. Yet, if the plan had worked, the defendant would have gone free.
"2. Does the apparent inconsistency (to me, anyway) increase the chance that the prosecution may have not fully believed their own view that the child was likely to kill again?"
The prosecutors may have felt that even if the kid was a unsaveable animal, that if they went to trial he could go totally free because of the age issue. As such, they may have been willing to settle for 3 years of juvi instead of risking total freedom. However, I suspect the parents and/or the defense attorneys were convinced they would win at trial, so refused the deal. While the defense attorney must present all options to the client, and suggest what he thinks the best choices are, ultimately the attorney must do as the client demands, except in the rarest of circumstances.
So, the prosecutors may or may not have been convinced that the kid was going to kill again. Impossible for me to guess.
"3. Speaking in general now, it is my understanding that the role of the state prosecutor is supposed to be that of fact-finding and fact-presenting with no withholding of evidence that could help the defense and with the sole goal of determin ing the truth rather than having a bias towards aiming for a conviction. Why does it appear to the general public that prosecutors are generally intent on convictions? Why also do they generally appear to aim for very high-end punishments? Is there something wrong with the system, such as perhaps that a higher conviction rate or greater number of convictions means career advancement, which could encourage conscious or subconscious bias on the part of the prosecutors?"
Prosecutors are judged in their job performance at least partially by conviction rates. As discussed above, they go for high-end punishments as part of an overall plan. Primarily, it is a way to coerce defendants into taking the offered deal. Keep in mind that this doesn't happen if the prosecutor thinks the person is innocent, they do let those people go. However, if the prosecutor feels that crime X and punishment Y is the minimum an accused should face, then they won't offer less, and they will do everything in their power to make the accused accept that deal.
Prosecutors do have a duty to find the truth, and must reveal all evidence, especially that which tends to exonerate, to the defense. I'm sure that very few prosecutors hide evidence, and those that do it do so very rarely. Doing this, if caught, can get the prosecutor in real hot water, and will result in the defendant being released, more often than not, neither of which the prosecutor wants. As for their appearance to the public of zealously pursuing convictions, I'm pretty sure that's what they do whenever they are convinced the defendant is guilty. If they're not sure, they probably don't often make a big deal out of the case, since they might look bad if they trumpet the case to the media and then don't get a conviction. I'm sure that most of the mistakes in this area occur in so-called "high profile" cases where the person appears very guilty to the public, and there is a general outcry for justice against the accused. In these cases the prosecutors can certainly feel the pressure of the public to obtain a conviction, and might be overly zealous in pursuing it, and in making announcements to the media. Nobody wants to look bad in public, and I'm sure some prosecutors make mistakes in these situations.
"4. Finally, do you feel that there is a significant amount of abuse of the system along such lines, including offering unbalanced, coercive plea bargain options with Draconian alternative punishments looming over the heads of the accused should they choose to risk a full trial? And should these types of issues perhaps be addressed with the aim of remedy if a significant amount of abuse along these lines is found to take place in our judicial system?"
I cannot say at all if anything that occurs does so to a significant extent. I'm just not in there every day to see the regular cases. I would guess that you wouldn't commonly see such huge discrepancies between the offered deal the charges at trial. However, high profile cases probably do bring out the worst in the system, and do so at the worst times as well.
Look at it this way. I say to a defendant you can go to court and if convicted you'll likely get 8-10 years, or you can accept my deal and get 6 years. What do you think will happen? Nobody will take the deal, because there is always a reasonable chance that you can put reasonable doubt in the mind of the jury, almost no matter what the facts are. I know that I would risk 2 extra years of prison to avoid 6 years of prison almost every time. So, if there isn't a pretty big discrepancy, there won't be any deals at all.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
An excellent example of this is in the transcript of the PBS program FrontLine that examined Janet Reno's career as the Miami-Dade District Attorney and her "crusade" for children.
A sixteen year old boy was accused of multiple child rapes at a church daycare facility in an outbreak of mass hysteria. They tried him as an adult. He was offered a deal of confessing guilt and going straight into some segregated sex offender program until he was 25. If he pleaded innocent they were going for a sentence of many years and more importantly he would be placed directly in an adult prison. His defense attorney on the show said that his advice to the client was that it didn't matter if he was guilty or not; he should take the deal. He said if his defendant got sent to prison the upside was that he would quickly catch AIDS and die. The kid hung tough and walked.
The transcript is on-line.
Your explanations have helped further my limited understanding of our judicial system.
nt
I grew up with this friend of mine, our parents played kitchen table poker a very long time ago. My Dad and his dad let us sit on their laps and watch the action taking place. We learned how to squeeze the cards very slowly looking for the fifth flush card or the gut straight. My Grandma was the best at drawing for the gut straight, and she drove my uncle crazy. She busted more of his sets drawing for a gut card. With great regularity, he would start a fight with her over her bad play. It was very entertaining to watch.
Over the years my friend and I have played cards together rather regularly. He's played cards from coast to coast. Unfortunately, we don't share the same social cirles, but he always seems to be around when my cards are running a muck. When we ride home together, he's quick to the draw, to tell me how I screwed up the nights hold'em session and my bank roll. But in fairness, he always seems to know when I win and he is the first to call and congratulate me. He encourages me to play my "A" game, and reminds me to read the poker books and magazines.
My last losing session, he was the one who encouraged me to go the game. I was feeling a little tired but I am a hold'em addict so off we went. And that's just what I did, I went off like a rocket. Playing from all the towns and all the valley's of any poker consciousness. The real kick of it was I had to ride home with him and listen to another lecture on what the SPM did wrong this time.
I have been replaying some of the events that have gotten me in trouble at the poker table over the years. He's always involved getting me to play, when I know I should not play. Most of these times I am alert deprived. Thinking about all the other times I was not in the right frame of mind to play cards. He was usually around egging me on. He always uses that reverse psychology, you better stay home those guys will kick your butt. Then I'd say lets go play some cards and I would lose. He's the guy who told me any suited cards are playable from any position. Now I've got my self worked up and questioning if this guy is my friend or not.
Would a friend make you play two days straight, always refusing to take you home in his car? Would a friend keep encouraging you to use your credit card, because he thinks you can beat the game. Even tho the evidence indicates you are tired and playing no more than 27 straight hands, before mucking your first hand?
Now that I think about it he's my worst enemy at the hold'em table. I wonder if you have a friend who acts like mine. If you are not sure whether your friend is sabotaging your poker efforts. I suggest you go to the nearest mirror, make sure your alone, then look deep into his eyes. You'll find the answer quick enough.
SPM,...things are good, play long and prosper...
they got to you SPM...succinct and nice...gl
and your enemies closer. Nice post SPM
hillbilly- a friend
Big Mountain, Whitefish Mt . announced a big facelift on Monday.
CEO of Winter Sports Inc-Mike Collins, "This is a historic day for Big Mountain and Whitefish as it marks the next step in our vision to become a four-season mountain resort...While we expand the village, it is important for us to preserve our our small-town family feel and keep true all the qualities that make Big Mountain such a special place". Yeah, right! I was in Whitefish in 1977 when it was truly a small town. This type of Aspen like development sickens me.
Whitefish is no longer the town it once was and that is definitely a sad thing. when I was younger we knew some people who owned land at the head of whitefish lake where swift creek enters. they would let us park in their driveway and cross their land to swim and fish. The last time I went by there the new owners had the entire property fenced off and monitored with security cameras. Whitefish has definitely changed for the worse.
The Iron Horse (is that what is called) development really fucked up the big mountain ecosystem. Before there had always been a corridor for ther critters to get from Haskill Basin to the Hell Roaring drainage and beyond. Now its totally developed from the lake to the top of the mountain and it surely is a shame, especially for the Grizzly bears.
I'm not sure how much more disgusting it can get. I still miss the area but I doubt I would ever move back to whitefish proper.
i agree with you guys. the town has changed from me knowing everyone on the street to not even knowing but a few at my breakfast spot the buffalo cafe. thats progress. it had to come as the areas too beautiful and has too much great recreation to keep out the big buck yuppies. the cats out of the bag for me though as everyone here thinks i live in the middle of nowhere but in fact live a few miles from the biggest ski area in the northwest. but its still wild with bears and the like. i do have grizzly bears come in my yard and alot of them come by my river cabin. the good side is we have some really great restaurants and art happenings. just a few miles out and you are back in the real woods its just those few miles are getting farther out each year. lucky for me in the 80's i bought alot of rental houses and property in the area and that has done well of course.
I'm afraid a development of this magnitude may well threaten the grizzly. I hope my fears are unfounded.
I remember sitting in a bar,reading a newspaper chuckling over the seemingly ridiculously low land prices.
I did accept a seasonal job with the Forest Service on a survey crew in Whitefish but did not show up for work. I was working on a tree thinning crew and headed to Idaho instead. At times I wonder if I would have settled there had I taken the job.
700 residential and lodging units, at least one 125 room hotel, condo complexs,town houses,employee housing,80000 sq. feet of commercial space and a expansive 20,000 sq ft conference center. Also plan to harness two springs feeding off the mountain to create a water feature, consisting of a pond,water park,water tube slide and hot tubs. A new ski lift will be added, allowing the development to extend downslope from existing villages.
they said it will be all in the base area so thats not too much of a bear effect but all the extra people adds pressure. there is also a ton of other stuff coming close to town and by hiway 40.
...is seeing frightening levels of environmental destruction, from the rainforests, to the greenhouse effect, to turning the Yangtzee river into a lake, to smaller but still disturbing things like this overdevelopment of Big Mountain. For a while it looked like we might save the environment, but these things don't look good at all.
Man is inexorably in a rush to extinquish all life on the planet, including himself.
The demographic increases fuel all the pressure on dwindling resourses, dissappearing species and environmental pollution. One of the Reagan administration's first actions was to tell the AID (Agency for International Development) that they could no longer distribute information about population control. Clinton reversed the decision and the AID was free to tell people around the world that the nine child family was not inevitable.
Can anyone confirm for me whether GWB not only reinstated Reagan's ban but also threatened to withhold foreign aid to any country that refused to adopt policies encouraging runaway population growth?
Bull story Posted By: Nick In Response To: Re: das crab story (Paul Feeney)
"Everything is getting better in the oceans in spite of ourselves Zee"
"Man is inexorably in a rush to extinquish all life on the planet, including himself."
What a rosie outlook.
You can do the substitutions Nick!!!!!
-------------------------->
Right strip getting thicker.
:-)
Sorry!!...
Are any 2+2 regulars, posters, or lurkers going to the WPO in Tunica?
I will be there the last weekend in March.
I arrive on March 27 and leave April 17. I will be staying at the Gold Strike. I am going for the side action and do not plan to play in the tournament.
Jim,
Well---you are a person that I definitely do want to meet---but will probably avoid being at your table.
We are at the GS also and will be back and forth between there and the Horseshoe. I'll find you upstairs in the GS ballroom side games--or next door in the 'Shoe 20-40.
Abe
...was hoping to meet you in vegas next week Jim. Next time I guess. Good luck to you and Abe in Tunica.
jim did you work at the horseshoe in shreveport as a floor person when they were open?in their poker room.paul thanks
In 2 months now the new idiot of state has sent North Korea packing , basically telling them to sell ballistic missiles to Iraq and Iran, pissed off China, Russia, the Nato Allies, and the Arab world, and done nothing to attempt to solve the middle east crisis. Granted, several top Bush people(including Cheney) have heavy personal financial investments in the defense industry, but is greater risk of nuclear war worth a profit for these people with conflicts of interest? Has ANY press agent focussed on Cheney's divestiture of his Haliburton stock options? No, they keep just harping on Clinton. The world will be lucky to survive this illegitimate, and corrupt buffoon.
no T.
... the stock market. It took Clinton 8 years to repair what Reagan + Bush did, and only 2 months for "W" to destroy it again.
Not to mention the damage they are doing to the environment.
They have got to be the most unqualified cabinet of all time.
Natural crap is good for the trees!
Plus, check out all that arsenic that Bush Junior wants to introduce to our water...
Yeah. Bush is not as good as Clinton. He doesn't know how to make the stocks go up.
I want to vote for a president that will always makes the stock go up. Bush is no good because he cannot make them go up like Bill Clinton could.
Right?
The world will be lucky to survive this illegitimate, and corrupt buffoon.
You are incorrect; we survived Clinton.
You are incorrect. CLinton was not illegitimate, nor was he incompetent. He might have been corrupt, but not NEARLY as much as a man who STOLE THE ELECTION. Dictatorship may be fine for slime like yopu. Some Americans believe in freedom.
...if everybody was the same as Real Politik?
We'd all just look the other way while your scumbag darling Clinton sells out to the red chinese. You're pathetic RP - Bush didn't steal the election, Clinton's little lackey, Al Gore, couldn't get his HOME state to vote for him. Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha. You probably like fat Teddy Kennedy too!Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha. He let somone drown in the back of his car and tried to coverup and still gets elected each year by the retarded a-holes in the state of Massahusetts. Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha. You should move there RP - they're all just like you. Ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha.
Lets not forget about "dubya's" dui in 76, and the fact that Cheney has had 2 dui's himself.
p.s. Bush did steal the election. The state that he needed to win (FL) is ran by his brother, and all the sudden votes start coming up missing, and uncounted. Then we all come to find out, that 10,000 African American voters, were denied the right to vote? Smells fishy to me. Sounds like dictatorship!
...........
You are a pathetic Nazi loving Klansmen..you will burn in hell!
You are incorrect. CLinton was not illegitimate, nor was he incompetent. He might have been corrupt, but not NEARLY as much as a man who STOLE THE ELECTION. Dictatorship may be fine for slime like you. Some Americans believe in freedom.
I think this forum thread is broken. I can find messages using 'search' that do not show up otherwise. I posted a reply to one and my reply is nowhere to be found. wtf?
A local casino has begun using cards that are very 'sticky' or rough surfaced, in that they do not slide at all and can be somewhat of a nuisance to hold and view. They often clump when the dealer lays the flop so that it first looks like only two cards were pealed - then the third comes out from under the second etc. They also seem thin and flexible. I just wonder if they might be designed to thwart a card mechanic? I don't remember the brand.
A dealer told me they may be worse when it's humid.
I will be in Las Vegas from March 30th to April 2nd. I would love to meet with Vegas-based 2+2'ers for coffee, lunch, or dinner. Let me know by E-mail if you would like to get together.
Having played exclusively on-line poker since August 2000, I am gonna have to practice not rubbing my hands with glee when I get aces or flop a set or something...hehe...should be fun.
How 'bout a side trip to San Diego or L.A.?
Probably another time John what with expenses etc. To be sure, I will be making a California poker trip this year...I'll let you know. Any chance of you making a Vegas trip when I'm there?
Wow, I completely lost this thread, though I'd meant to respond. Won't be able to make it this time, skp, but I'm sure we'll link up one of these days - here or there. Have a good trip.
I would love to meet you skp but I will be Tunica, Mississippi at the World Poker Open from March 27th through April 17th.
Damn! Too bad but good luck in Tunica, Jim.
Which is more "right"?
- a number wholey divisible only by itself and 1;
- a number with only two prime factors.
Related ?; is 1 a prime number?
1 is not a prime.. so def #2 doesn't work.
A prime number is any whole number larger than 1 that can be divided only by itself and 1. A math geek stated not long ago that, if a prime number can divide a product, it can also divide at least one of the factors. So, 6 can divide 12 but it cannot divide either 3 nor 4 (3*4=12).
Your definition #2 is thus flawed: If the prime number P was the product of 2 other primes, then P would also be divisible by these two primes, in addition to 1 and itself - but then it would not be a prime. You might have in mind the fact that every positive integer bigger than 1 is either a prime or a product of primes. (This too was shown by the same math geek, Euclid around 280 BC.)
:-)
I know where scott is, but where in the name of God are you guys?
I´m thinking about going to Finlands Casino ray to play some poker this summer. I have never played texas hold´em in a casino before I have only practised at home. My bankroll is´t the biggest in the world either. So i would really want to know what kind of skill level the players at the tables are ( at the lowest limit game) I have also read that they have monday and thuesday tournament´s how though are they? At what times are the tables tarting to fill up. Are there many people playing TH or should i start to read up on my short handed play. If there is anyone that could answer these questions i would really appreciate it.
/Marcus
Hi guys. Does anyone have the most recent Theory of Poker? Is the binding similar to that of HEFAP 21 or the Feeney and Schoonmaker books (very high quality)? Or is it the same quality as the 1994 third edition version of TOP; that is, the pages are stiffer and you can't open the book the whole way without exposing the spine and glue. Mason, are you planning to do another printing?
Thanks, sucker
/
The edition of TOP that we currently have in stock was printed in 1999. It was printed together with HPFAP-21 and the binding is identical to that text. The Feeney and Schoonmaker books were done a year later at a different bindery (in California instead of Nevada).
The problems that we had with the 1994 printing of HPFAP are long gone and hopefully never reappear.
1990-799,065
2000-902,195
Change- 103,130
% growth- 12.9%
Missoula(my neck of the woods) fastest-growing major city in the fastest blooming region.
1990-42,918
2000-57,053
%growth-33%
Ray's neck of the woods
%growth- 25.8%
Hell,ain't no wonder a guy cain't breath no more!
Why didn't you get another congressman back for the next election?
The power of compounding is the reason why:
12.9% aggregate growth over a 10 year span is actually pretty weak as it is only a compounded annual rate of 1.22%. This is in line with the overall US average of about 1% per year.
Consider this:
- Nevada led the nation by growing about 4.5% per year over the past decade. If Montana had grown at the same rate, it would have a 2000 population of 1.24 million people, or 38% more than it's ctual total.
- Germany, which is slightly smaller than Montana, has 82.8 million people. And it is still a very "uncrowded" land in the grand scheme of things. Here is a breakdown, by area, of its land: 1% permanent crops, 15% permanent pastures, 31% forests and woodlands, 33% other arable land, and 20% other. The "other" includes cities, factories, industrial infrastructure, highways, lakes, unarable land, etc.
We people (and particularly Montanans) overestimate ourselves and our impact on our surroundings.
Looks like every Tom, Dick, and Ted Kaczynski is moving to Montana. Maybe this where Sadaam is making his bombs of mass destruction - right in the ole Montana woods.
Mister, you are NOT funny!
xx
Only In America
"Only in America"
And why, do you think, is that? And what are you trying to imply, other than igonorance based on emotional media-driven hysteria?
The top 10 countries for homicides per 100k, using averages for 1987-1996 (source:http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html) are, as follows:
Lesetho (141), Bahamas (23), Guyana (22), Lebanon (20), Netherlands Antilles (12), Iraq (12), Sri Lanka (12), Cyprus (11), Trinidad (10), Jamaica (10). And this doesn't include countries which have had a surge in homicides in recent years such as Columbia (54.0), Brazil (25.8), former USSRand Baltic States such as Russia, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine (20-50+) and South Africa (26.6).
The average homicides per 100k for the US from 1987-96 was 8.8 and has fallen to less than 7 in recent years.
Also excluded are the countless millions (including women, children, and infants) that have met violent deaths in ethnic genocide and civil wars in places such as Rwanda, Bosnia, Indonesia, and the Sudan.
Our prosperity and freedom comes with a price, but it sure beats the alternative.
You're right,I sorry you don't like it just quote from I think Don King.
I think school shooting and homicides are different...I better stop.
This is a dictatorship.
Tell this dictator to make the stocks go up like Clinton did.
Cogent analysis, indeed. Please keep the posts coming.
When was the last time shooting happened? I remember read Poker Faces by David Hayano,loser shot someone dead in Gardena(I might be wrong).
Any good bet? Here odds from one of my offshore sportsbook.
BEST ACTOR AWARD
RUSSELL CROWE -175
JAVIER BARDEM +1000
TOM HANKS -120
ED HARRIS +1200
GEOFFREY RUSH +800
BEST ACTRESSS AWARD
JOAN ALLEN +800
JULIETTE BINOCHE +700
ELLEN BURSTYN +600
LAURA LINNEY +1200
JULIA ROBERTS -700
BEST DIRECTOR
STEPHEN DALDRY +2000
ANG LEE -150
SODERBERGH ERIN BRCK +800
SODERBERGH (TRAFFIC) +180
RIDLEY SCOTT EV
BEST PICTURE
CHOCOLAT +1400
CROUCHING TIGER H.D. +600
ERIN BROCKOVICH +800
GLADIATOR -600
TRAFFIC +500
SUPPORTING ACTOR
JEFF BRIDGES +1000
WILLEM DAFOE +700
BENICIO DEL TORO -500
ALBERT FINNEY +400
JOAQUIN PHOENIX +600
SUPPORTING ACTRESS
JUDI DENCH +180
MARCIA GAY HARDEN +1400
KATE HUDSON -140
FRANCES MCDORMAND +350
JULIE WALTERS +450
GLADIATOR OSCARS???
OVER 7.5 OSCARS +120
UNDER 7.5 OSCARS -160
Lay the chalk with Del Toro
Good Luck
Howard
I think Julia Roberts and Del Toro are locks. I might take a flyer on Crouching Tiger for Best Picture as I like the price there.
I am having some trouble getting questions answered by Mirage staff on the phone, so I am curious if someone here can help.
Is the poker rate for rooms (85 weekday/119 weekend) per ROOM or per OCCUPANT. We have 3 going in May and want to get this rate, seeing as we will be playing plenty in their poker room over the weekend.
Also, how does one go about reserving a room at the poker rate?
Thanks in advance,
KJS
Call the Mirage's poker office. Give them your name and they will advise you of the current rates. They require 8 hours of play a day in their room to qualify you for the poker rate. They will not count Bellagio play towards that required 8 hours. And that rate is per room. However you will be charged additional if you order a cot from house-keeping.
Good luck :)
It is per room. Ask for the poker room and make the reservation through the room. When I went last October the rate was $79 Sun-Thurs with 6 hours of play and $99 Fri-Sat with 8 hours of play. You can aggregate play throughout your trip. I stayed Sat-Tues and needed a total of 26 hours (8 for Sat and 6 for Sun, Mon and Tues). Also I think you can combine play of multiple guests.
Just returned from a trip to vegas. Have never seen so much talent under one roof at the same time as at Bellagio all week. My very favorite, Mr. Doyle Brunson playing 2-4K chinese poker. I said hello and he was the sweetest man to take the time to give me a short chatter. Watched him while he played for several days and I never saw his demeanor change once. He is the most non-plussed player I have ever seen. Such a true gentleman player. Johnny Chan was smiling as always. Mason, Negreanu, David, Ted Forest, Roy Cooke, Jennifer, Irene, Ray ..they were all in attendance. Then add George Clooney filming a remake of the classic "Oceans 11" epic and you realize that there is just no place like vegas. Mason was truly a joy to speak with. It always amazes me how generous he is with his time. He makes himself so very approachable and will discuss any topic at length. What a classy guy. Can't wait to be back for the WSOP.
Desire
I could not agree more with what you said about Mason. A class act all the way.
Good Luck
Howard
"Mason was truly a joy to speak with."
I'm glad to here this. In the past, some people at RGP have given the impression he's increadibly unsociable. I never thought that made sense, since he likes to participate so much in regards to posting.
-Don
desire,
The boys at Hollywood have missed you. When will you be returning to Hollywood? Whatever your answer, it ain't soon enough.
SPM...play long and prosper...
Dear SPM,
I miss you too, luv. And I can't wait to get back to Hollywood. Be there this week. And btw, you're a celebrity in vegas. People were asking me if I knew you. I told them not only did I know you, I have been in the back seat of your tipmobile. God you should have seen the envy of the girls at the table.. :))
I'm curious. Are you by any chance a very pretty female?
You're breaking my heart. Talent and looks and don't even get a mention. Must be academy bias.
JG
After she finishes kissing up to the real players, she's going to start on the cyber-entities.
.
I actually showed up at your carbon-based casino yesterday morn, but there were no games bigger than 20-40, so I went home and watched alma mater.
JG
Two reasons why I had to give up on it and go to LA.
If I'm supposed to think you exist just because GL III says he knows you, forget it. I still haven't decided if he's real.
"Mason was truly a joy to speak with. It always amazes me how generous he is with his time. He makes himself so very approachable and will discuss any topic at length. What a classy guy."
Gee and I thought just Charmaine and I thought this way about Mason. Desire, I am trying to get to the WSOP if so look me up.
vince
I have always been puzzled as to why virtually no mention of the second fight btwn Muhammad Ali and Ken Norton is ever made in any of the sundry books/articles/etc. that have appeared on Ali in the last decade or so.
Recall that in March '73 a grotesquely out of shape Ali had his jaw broken and was summarily battered for 12 rounds by the then unknown Norton(yet miracuously only lost a split decision).
For their rematch that September Ali weighed ~212 lbs, by far the lightest of his post-exile career(for ex. he weighed ~215 for the first Frazier fight and ~220-5 for Zaire and Manila), and Norton was ripped to the bone @ ~206.
It was a fantastic fight, with Ali seeming to be pulling ahead and staggering Norton, when he sustained a severe(non-fracture) injury to his right hand in the sixth round. Norton stormed back, but Ali managed to eke out a controversial(but fair IMO; I scored it 6-5-1) split decision, following a fantastic toe-to-toe 12th round.
To Ali's credit he never mentioned the hand injury again following the post-fight press conference, but it would haunt him to the end of his career, as he never scored another 'clean' KO of a legitimate opponent(Frazier was stopped by his trainer in Manila, Foreman was KO'd more by exhaustion than a punch, Lyle finished on his feet and was never down[ref stopped it far too early IMO], and Coopman & Wepner were nonentities). Remember how Ali could only paw, slap and clutch w/his right by the time of the Spinks fights? And of course Norton was utterly robbed in the third fight w/Ali, in Yankee Stadium, Sept. '76(which was also the only one of the trilogy that was a world championship fight).
Ali-Norton II occasionally turns up on "Superbouts" type programs; be sure to watch it if you can. It took place in Los Angeles, wonder if Mason was there...
I wasn't there. I was still in college, but I did watch it on TV, and your description is very accurate.
I will begin by saying that Mike Tyson is NOT one of them. He was and is a fraud! Check his record. Look who he fought. Did he ever fight a true heavyweight? Did he ever go the distance?
Larry Holmes was one of the best. Check his record. Probably had the best jab of any heavyweight.
Anyone remember Little Red Lopez? Easy to say Ali, and rightly so, but be imaginative.
Of the ones I saw,
1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Ali
3. Sugar Ray Leonard
Don't want to keep going for fear of leaving someone out (I am thinking of all those welter/middle weights from the late 50's/early 60's as well as Hagler & Hearnes), but some favorites from history:
Dempsey Conn Jack Johnson Gunboat Smith
I remember Little Red. Also his brother, Indian Red.
Here's my list apologies for mispellings:
Rocky Marciano
Joe Louis
Muhammed Ali
Ray Robinson
Jack Johnson
Roberto Duran
Ray Leonard
Alexis Arguello
Telefaio Stevenson
Archie Moore
#1-Sugar Ray Robinson #2-Muhammad Ali #3-Joe Gans #4-Sugar Ray Leonard #5-Joe Louis #6-Archie Moore #7-Roberto Duran #8-Kid Gavilan #9-Mickey Walker #10-Henry Armstrong
Jaws, how old are you?
I'm not old enough to have seen Robinson's and Gavilan's fights live.
However, when I was in my teens I was lucky enough to have seen most of the major fights in boxing history. Thanks to the fact that my Dad had a friend who had a collection of several hundreds of fights. I've seen all of the major fights of Ali, Louis, Dempsey, Marciano, Patterson, Liston, Robinson, Gavilan, Moore, Duran, Armstrong, Walker, LaMotta, Johnson, Graziano, etc.
I've even seen the fights of Ketchel, Gans, Fitzimmons, Villa, and Corbett (including the first fight ever put on film shot by Thomas Edison himself!).
Now if I can just find my Dad's friend's new address. He's in Asia somewhere. Thanks to him and to some ancient copies of The Ring Magazine, I became somewhat of a boxing historian when I was in my teens.
I think you should find room for Sandy Sadler and Carlos Monzon.
But which fighters in my Top Ten List would you take out and replace with these two no doubt great fighters?
I would remove Ali as although he was a great champion and indeed an even greater social force,I don't believe he was one of the ten best.I feel he lost two out of three to Norton,was life or death against Joe Frazier,a one armed puncher,split with Spinks and I feel lost to Shavers. I am old enough to have seen Gavilan,he was very flashy with little power,I don't believe he could have gone five rounds with either Hearns or Arguello among others.
Ali had style, never seen before or since. On "The definitive list" I change Ali to #1.
I don't qualify to make such a list, I'm not an authority on the subject. I don't like boxing. I see them taking too many punches. I saw (live on TV) the Emile Griffith - Benny Paret fight (1962, NY). But Jazz, I enjoyed your response. What do you think of Rocky Rivero (1962-67) and Pascual Perez (1952-64). I watched a lot of good fights on ABC in the 60's, they had them every week. I don't remember if they were on Friday or Saturday nights. Do you remember them? The good old days....
I remember seeing exactly 2 Pascual Perez fights on tape back when I was in my teens. I can't remember who his opponents were, though. Perez was very tiny and moved very fast. But I am not familiar with the fight you mention. I believe he came from either Argentina or Brazil.
JAWZ: did you see the Benny Paret - Emile Griffith fight?
Rocky Rivero, great Middleweight from Argentina. Opponents: Luis Rodriguez, Florentino Fernandez, Dick Tiger, Don Fullmer.
Pascual Perez, Flyweight, World Title, Alias (El Terrier) from Argentina. Active, 1952 to 1964. Record: won 84 (KOs 57) Drawn 1, lost 7. Total: 97
I've seen a couple of Griffith fights. But I'm not sure if I ever saw the tragic one against Paret. I may have. Do you remember Boom Boom Mancini's fight against Kim? Just as sad.
the 'famous' Foreman event where champion Foreman defended his title against 5 (five) heavyweight contenders in a single evening?
How come this one is never mentioned?
LOL !
Ali-Inoki!
That one I missed. At that time I didn't have the money to go to pay per view.
Even though I didn't see it I do remember reading about the preliminary to Ali-Inoki. If my memory is right, Andre the Giant threw Chuck Wepner out of the ring and Wepner could not continue.
...a hypothetical match of Ali vs. Andre the Giant, assuming they both really tried?
I would have to have bet on Andre unless the odds were prohibitive.
There was also a stunt match in the 80's which involved a traveling black bear (trained of course, and for anyone who doesn't follow bears, Black bears are much smaller and less aggressive than their Grizzly cousins). All anyone who wanted to win a new sports car had to do was pin the bear's shoulders to the mat for 3 seconds. I guess the bear was trained not to bite or scratch or perhaps was muzzled. According to my friend, a wrestler tried to choke the bear from behind but could not pin it. A professional boxer with something of a name took the bear on. The bear lazily swatted him once and rolled him across the ring.
I also recall reading a column which portrayed Andre the Giant as a good poker player. My mother told me that Richard Nixon (whom she never trusted) was supposed to have been known as a very shrewd poker player in the service.
If the rules were boxing rules ( 12 ounce gloves, 3 min. rounds, standing 8 counts, etc.), I would have Ali easily beat Andre the Giant by unanimous decision or by a late KO.
But if it's an all out bare knuckle no-holds barred fight like the ones they have in Pride and Ultimate Fighting Championships, I would have to go with Andre the Giant by submission in less than 2 minutes. The reason is because 95% of all "streetfights" end on the ground. Ali would be useless in a ground fight.
A related and perhaps less lopsided type of hypothetical match resulted in debate in years past amongst some friends and I. All other things being equal, who should have the advantage in the following no-holds-barred steetfight matchups?
1) A boxing student with 6-months training or a karate student with 6-months training?
2) An expert boxer vs. a karate expert
3) A wrestler vs. a judoka (judo)
4) A first-degree black belt in one of the following disciplines vs. a first-degree black belt in the other listed disciplines: Karate, Kung-Fu, and Tae-Kwon-Do (granted there are many different styles within the above disciplines, but we are looking for an answer that is generally true anyway).
Answers to follow.
"1) A boxing student with 6-months training or a karate student with 6-months training?"
Boxer. At 6 months a typical karate student has not developed much at all in the way of real, practical, street-type skills. A boxer at that point, though, has at least learned how to punch half way effectively. In reality, as JAWS might point out, though, it may well end up on the ground where they'd be even. If they avoided going to the ground then, see above.
"2) An expert boxer vs. a karate expert"
This question needs to be defined better due to radical stylistic and training differences among karate practicioners. e.g., if it were a very good full contact karate practicioner, then the karate guy would have a solid edge. But if it were, say, a typical, kata oriented Japanese stylist, trained in the U.S. (versus Japan where I understand full contact practice would be more likely), the boxer would have a big edge.
"3) A wrestler vs. a judoka (judo)"
Wrestler. Both will be good at getting the other to the ground, and countering such attempts. But once there the wrestler will be more proficient with a larger arsenal of tactics. His only problem is that the judoka will have some (not a lot I don't think) training in submission holds that he (the wrestler) doesn't know. But I doubt a good wrestler would be easy for the judoka to get into such a hold. (assuming no "no-holds-barred" competition experience on the part of either) The wrestler will have a touhg time finishing it cleanly owing to his lack of training in such submission tactics, breaks, etc., but I'd still expect him eventually to prevail. (thinking amateur wrestler here of course)
"4) A first-degree black belt in one of the following disciplines vs. a first-degree black belt in the other listed disciplines: Karate, Kung-Fu, and Tae-Kwon-Do"
Well, without any further qualification (particularly re all the radically different karate styles) I'd put the Tae Kwon Do guy on top, karate guy in the middle, with the kung fu guy losing to either. Here I'm assuming these are typical U.S. trained practicioners. Things change somewhat when you go to Honk Kong, Korea, Japan, etc.
Now who'da thunk I'd have a clue about this stuff??
1) I agree. Karate schools don't even let six month students hit each other. But six month boxers would already be used to getting hit and hitting back - and would probably be in much better condition (punching bag/speed bag/shadow boxing/sparring/running versus "kata").
2) I fully agree. Very well said. And if it goes to the ground, the karate expert would rule because he is trained in a few holds and submissions too.
3) Wrestling versus judo would probably be 50/50. It will be determined more by the individual player than by the style. Unless they fight without shirts on, then wrestling would have the advantage.
4) The Kung Fu guy would definitely lose to the other two. And a good football player or rugby player would probably beat all three.
Generally when these type of matches occur, the wrestler uses wrestling rules and the boxer uses boxing rules. That would make it very bad for Ali.
I agree it would be a mismatch with Andre winning easily. Once he got his arms around Ali, plus all that weight of almost 500 pounds, there is no way he would be pushed off. Ali would probably find himself in the third row after being crushed and thrown out of the ring.
I watched that too. Several of the fighters were not top quality, and Foreman got too tired to finish well in the last fight. It was funny when one of the guys he fought gave Foreman a hug and a kiss when Foreman went into his famous prefight stare in the middle of the ring.
While I agree that Ali-Norton II is probably the forgotten great fight, the most exciting fight I ever watched was George Foreman - Ron Lyle. Part of the excitment might have been Howard Cossel going crazy in disbelief. Anyway, it looked like Lyle was moving in to finish Foreman who had been battered and knocked down twice (I think), but Foreman caught him with a jab -- that's right, a jab -- and that was the end of Lyle. (Note: Lyle had also been knocked down in the fight.)
I remember that as an exciting fight, but I thought the most exciting was Hagler-Hearns. There were some older fights though, that may have topped either of those. I remember seeing a clip from some Floyd Patterson fight which looked like the most amazing nonstop toe to toe slugfest. Don't recall the opponent.
There was also Louis/Fripo which featured nine knockdowns in the first round. Seven by Louis and two by Fripo.
Are you sure it's not Dempsey/Firpo?
I guess I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure.
Archie Moore vs Yvon Durelle in 1958 was the most exciting fight I ever saw (on television). Archie was down 4 times, 3 in the first round (no 3 knockdown rule). He barely made it to his feet on the count of 9 on one of them. He hung on all through the second round in typical Archie tactics. It later became a slugfest. Archie knocked Yvon out in the 11th round. Durelle was known as the fighting fisherman.
Yes! I remember that blood bath. Each fighter kept knocking the other down, looked like the fight was over, then the OTHER would come back and knock his opponent down. Both were bleeding and tired to exhaustion. Not a pretty spectacle. I think there were 6 or even 7 knockdowns in that one.
"And of course Norton was utterly robbed in the third fight w/Ali, in Yankee Stadium, Sept. '76(which was also the only one of the trilogy that was a world championship fight)."
I had a letter about this fight published in Sports Illustrated. I agreed that Norton was robbed, though I was always an Ali fan.
I saw the fight on closed circuit at Phoenix Civic Plaza, the same day I ran ten miles, the longest run I ever completed. I think I was about 19. And I'm sure this is fascinating to everyone.
Yeah, that's (yuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhnnnn) kinda um zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. I was 9-yo and anchoring the right side of the Rancho Solano 6th grade football teams O-line. I listened to news reports of the fight on a clock radio I had.
JG
analogue, no doubt
and you lose vince!!!
well, if you think i am back, youre wrong. i am at the house of someone. let's call him j feeney -- no wait, that's too specific -- john f.
in case anyone is curious, i happen to know it is possible to drive across the country and party for 5 weeks, then play four days of cards and end up 1200 over expenses. so, if anyone wants an extended vacation, i recommend driving a fifteen year old car no where in particular for no particular reason. but make sure you quit school first. that's because poets dont need no education.
we dont need no thought control.
scott
scott,
I just finished reading this month's Atlantic Monthly cover story called "The Organization Kid". If focuses on undergrads at Princeton and how they grew up but Columbia's undergrads probably are not much different. If you have time read it because when I did I realized I went to school on another planet in another dimension ;-).
Here is a link to the article online:
Link To Atlantic Monthly Article On Super-Conformist Kids
I'm glad there are still some like you out there. Good luck!
Rick
talk about a depressing state of affairs
WE didn't lose Vince. Sklansky ditched him over on rgp. He'll find his way home soon enough.
Have no fear. Vince is not lost. He is just pining for thefijords. In fact he is alive and well last seen a week ago in the Trop in AC. Matter of fact your name came up in a conservation.
and you lose vince!!!
No one lost anyone, Vince is on a communication break. It's an old principle, absence makes the heart grow founder.
SPM,...he's a smart one that Vince, we await his return...
I have 32 pages before I finish his book "Inside the Poker Mind" I hope part II is coming soon.
Please tell John thanks for the words, I really love the part one.
SPM...lost inside his own mind...
.
Master Wrist is a legend in the mind of the SPM. A dealer told someone who told someone, who etc.... and they say Master Wrist mucked 123 straight hands. Hand 124 he was on the button, it was three bets to the Master, he capped it and the field all mucked their hands. He then played every third hand for three rounds and won 18 stacks and left the game. The remaining players were left to feed on each other, to recoup their losses.
They say watching Master Wrist release his cards into the muck was poetry in motion. Master Wrist never talked, except to say raise! When a player did something he didn't like, he could muck his cards into their cards from across the table, killing the other players hand. They say he did it with great regularity. Most of the time the player wouldn't know what he had done wrong, and some players cracked under the pressure. Master Wrist, was deadly with his release style, he could muck his cards so they would slid under all five flopped cards and spin three times before resting in the muck.
Master Wrist was a rock form the Valley of Patience. Players who have faced him in hold'em combat, say it was a relief to see him muck his hands. When he said raise, he was relentless and never backed down. Players tilted themselves so they could tell others how Master Wrist had pounded them into sausage. Release, release, release, was what Master Wrist did best, he had the patience of a mother with a sick infant. No one ever remembers Master Wrist losing, he always knew when to leave with a win.
Master Wrist always wore sun glasses and a baseball cap. No player ever saw him without his poker equipment. When he was heads up with a player it was said he could see into their soul. It rattled players so much they often would muck the winner. Occasionally Master Wrist would throw his cards up and he'd have nothing. Then everyone would call him, then Master Wrist would beat them to death with the nuts.
A young women would always come to see Master Wrist about the time he would leave the game. No one ever knew who she was, until a player asked. "Oh this is my Grandpa, he loves coming here to play cards. He must be doing okay, she continued, I don't understand how he wins all the time. He's as blind as a bat, so he can't see the cards. He says he just throws the cards away until he feels like he's got a winner. I guess he has some problems with the muck, whatever that is. He says he's never sure where the muck is."
SPM,...do you need to see to know it's tight & aggressive...
I booked into the Orleans for 5 days next week. Prior to booking, I called the poker room to get a poker rate, and they told me check with the floorperson when I arrived, and the rate would be adjusted. It would require only 3 to 4 hours of play per day. The people I talked to seemed nonchalant and relaxed about this, but I am a bit concerned since there is a considerable difference in rates. Also, I don't want to be a nudge when I get there and po these floorpeople. I'm pretty sure I'll get the poker rate but worrying about it may affect my play, my biggest concern. Can anyone tell me how this works at the Orleans.
I have stayed there a few times and this was the procedure. Just check in with them and have them call the rates in to the front desk 1 or 2 days prior to check-out. You can check your account on the TV screen and see if it gets adjusted. Have fun!
Randy
Over the past nine years, I have been in poker games(10/20 HE)with a gentleman, whom I sincerely believe is plagued with "bad luck". I've been in games with him, in several different cities. You wouldn't notice him, in a crowd. Just a guy. I have observed him, and he is no fish. He KNOWS Holdem. But, it is difficult for him to score a win. Holdem is a struggle, for him, given his obvious poker skills. I'm writing this, because I recently played Holdem, where he showed-up, and sat-in. I actually consider the guy, a superior player, to myself. I had no clue, when he sat down, I would be the cause of his "misfortune", in this particular game. What happened caused me to become self conscious. It was bizarre. It was as if, I was selected to be the vehicle of his "bad luck", for this session. During the first thirty minutes, after he sat down, he lost three pots to ME, where miracle cards fell on the river. I've seen that scenario before, but it was always someone else, putting the beats on him. The whole episode made me feel really strange. "Luck" is a REAL phenomenon.
he couldnt be a good player as a good player that had bad beats put on him wouldnt let on to the table. i suspect he plays tight but poorly.
went to missoula for a few days for a vacation from all the new people moving in here and to do some fishing and eating. the eating was good the weather great but i didnt fish very well. i fished only on the bitterroot river south of missoula. there were some stone flies out and some midges but too small for my eyes. i did manage to get a few trout and some whitefish as i could only coax things up from the bottom with black nymphs. but overall i fished poorly and didnt have it. i also never saw anyone else with a fish on or any good reports from floaters going by. i might start bringing my raft and floating as thats the best way to fish this river. i wanted to go up on rock creek as well but the skinking forest service was having a prescribed burn and i didnt want to breath in the smoke.
I am want to be your fishing buddy Ray,Zee. Plaese tell me what kind of your bate is good for big ones in outback. I come to Mountana and buy you lunch befour we move out. shuld I bring my own buttwipe or do you provide. I no we be lucky four each other.
Johnny T
I was on the Bitteroot on Thur., great day but I could not catch any fish. Flows were up a little, I understand the river fishes poorly when water fluctuates. Dog had a great time and I fished a streach without any other fisherman.
Y'know, Lee Wulff could cast better than I, and he certainly was a better catcher of fish, but I don't think he "fished" better. That's cuz there's no meaningful way to measure it. as long as you enjoyed yourself, you did good. enough of that neo touchy feely stuff. try swimming a matuka other sculpin through a midge hatch. sometimes the trout want a hunk of meat instead of the bites they're served up.
better than gettin skunked.
didn't get out this weekend as there was too much wind.
hate the wind.
speaking of wind, probably a good time to check out Duck Lake on the Blackfoot Res.
still iced in i think. but soon the big browns will be right in at the shore. i hate the drive over as some(most times) you get there and the wind blows you over and thats your day. in the summer i just go on up to many glacier and hike instead. this site gets you a weather forecast
http://iwin.nws.noaa.gov/iwin/mt/mt.html
then i get the winds from the cutbank airport metar but no help in the morning as the winds are down then.
Stuck ALL day thursday. After about 13 hours, I left--minus a thousand dollars. Got home at 5:30 a.m. Friday morning. I fed my pooch, and took him for a walk. Once back in the house, I fell asleep. I awoke at 11:30 a.m., panic stricken, with a very strong urge to head back to "the room", in an effort to make some money (retrieve the grand). I was slightly "on edge", kind of a jittery feeling. I started walking, aimlessly through my house. (Dog, looking at me, like "What's up with you, Bob"?) I started wondering whether, playing poker is giving me the "shakes". Damn! What could it be? Did I want to return to "the room", because I was having withdrawal symtoms, and needed another poker fix? Wonder, if I could I be addicted to GAMBLING?
I want my free taco damn it!
Here are my two favorite boxing trivia questions.
1. We all know that Leon and Michael were both heavyweight champions, which is amazing considering that they were both brothers. There were two other brothers who almost pulled this off. One did win the title and the other fought for it twice. Who were they?
2. In one of his title defenses Joe Louis was knocked out of the ring in the first round and landed in the first row of seats. He did get back into the ring and won by knockout in (I believe) the sixth round. Who was this opponent?
1. Max and Buddy Baer 2. Buddy Baer
1)Max Baer &Buddy Baer 2)Tony Galento
JAWZ has it right. Galento did knock Lewis down, but not out of the ring.
Do you think black Americans who are descendents of slaves should receive reparations(cash? land?)from the United States Government? If yes, why?
Another individual with a fixation, on what African Americans are doing. Are you concerned about your tax dollars? If so, I suggest you study the area of corporate taxes and agricultural business subsidization.
http://www.reparations4xslaves.org
Here're some hard-to-stomach facts of life :
- History works in mysterious ways. A colossal tragedy, such as the Jewish Holocaust during WWII, was what really decided the fate of a Jewish homeland. As a famous historian chillingly put it, "Hitler begat Israel".
- What happened to the black slaves was a tragedy of almost the same proportions. Remember, the Nazis wanted primarily the Jews, the Gypsys, the Russians, and all the other camp inmates to work, rather than die right off. It's just that they worked them to death rather quickly (more people died from the combined effects of hard work, malnutrition and abuse than gassing). The white owners treated the black labor almost the same way.
- In order for things to move on, we also need to move on. Israel demanded reparations from today's Germany because of the forced labor offered during the war and the properties confiscated. There're people still alive from that period, lots of them. This is not yet the "past". And the effect of that appropriation is still with us today - and Israel doesn't have access to it. (Actually, Israel's claims were based on highly dubious legal grounds - but the moral weight of their demands decides the issue.)
- This is different than black slavery. All the people from the slavery era are dead, and so are their children, grandchildren and grand-grandchildren. The effects of forced labor are still around in the U.S., which was built by cheap immigrant labor, really. (No one speaks about the thousands of "1-bowl-of-lice" Chinamen...) . So, the wealth of the United States is here for the sharing. What better way for the descendants of whites, blacks, reds and greens to share that wealth than have an equal shot at it? Fighting racism and discrimination is, when all is said and done, the way to repair injustices of the past - and have the bones of those slave-traders, slave-owners, and slave-legislators turn ugly in their graves.
- History is funny. Out of the black slavery tragedy, lost fo good things have happened - to both America and the descendants of slaves (ie almost every black man in America today). The U.S. enjoyed the influx of a vibrant culture and became richer in that aspect, as well. The descendants of those generations of suffering blacks live in the richest country in the world. (That Black nationalist you posted? I dare any black American to change his way of life, no matter how miserable and horiible, with living in any African country. You think there's fear in Ben-Stuy? You don't understand what black racism/nationalism and what fear of one's life can mean in Africa, to day, still, everywhere.)
- History is funny. Generations of people suffer hell on earth - and we get/so that we get to enjoy Duke Ellington.
-- Cyrus
and you probably never put a hard day work in your life. So shut the f... up.
"...you probably never put a hard day['s] work in your life."
I must be giving out quite a tell! So, it would help my poker play a lot if you were to inform me how you found that out.
As I said, I'm here to learn...
Cyrus,
Ethnographers made tape recordings with former slaves in the early part of the 20th Century; certainly some of their children may still be alive today. If not, many grandchildren are still alive today. The connection is not as remote as you say.
John
In these specific cases some financial reparations might actually be in order, since the link is more immediate and the effects less dissipated.
John makes the point that there may be children of slaves alive today, and if not, there are grandchildren of slaves alive today.
When I started responding to this thread I was responding to the general concept of all African-Americans as a group receiving reparations for slavery. Of the African-Americans today who had slave ancestors, only relatively very few had slave ancestors within two generations. For most African-Americans today the connection is far more distant and the effects therefore far more dissipated--hence my statement that I do not think they as a group today are substantially and adversely impacted by the tragedy of slavery in the 1800's.
If any children of slaves are still alive today, I think they certainly deserve some reparations, and grandchildren probably do also because that is close enough to have had some substantial adverse impact.
I stand corrected. "Grand-grandchildren" was an exaggeration. But the grandchildren should be very few indeed. The point continues to be that reparations are absurd and, what's more important, diverting from the more crucial objectives concerning equality in the American society.
Cyrus,
I also agree that reparations are absurd, but our society has a long way to go before any sort of equality can be achieved. Look at prison populations, education, SAT scores, childhood poverty, income levels, and court sentencing, and tell me we have come anywhere near approaching equality.
I remember believing quite sincerely as a teenager in 1971 that race relations would no longer be a problem by now. Boy, was I wrong.
John
John,
I agree with what you're saying. In fact, I "raise you"! The United States of America is a country with great inequalities.
I happen to subscribe to Doug Henwood's LBO financial newsletter. Some very eye-opening charts in there, especially the Gini index, which compares income distribution in the U.S. with other OECD countries. I may not agree with all the publisher's suggetions and solutions but I certainly cannot dispute his findings, and neither can his haters in Wall Street (I also have his eponymous book).
The road is long.
-- Cyrus
.....it usually will happen once every Haley's Comet.
No clear thinking individual could ever make a case for slavery - but blacks weren't the only people enslaved. Further, do you think some of the black-on-black slavery which exists today in Africa will be settled by reparations, when hopefully, peace comes to all nations on the dark continent? Monetary reparations for slavery? Give me a break.
Having said that, Cyrus tries to "roughly" equate black slavery in America with Hitler's ethnic cleansing and the horror of the death camps throughout Europe. We already know you are the consummate screwball - we now know you are obviously a blatant anti-Semite Cyrus. That's so far out there, I'm ashamed to admit I ever agree with even one of your opinions.
"Give me a break ... consummate screwball ... so far out there ... blatant anti-Semite ... "
You're more eloquent than usual, Wogga. Must be the doubling of the dosage.
a racist yourself, I don't understand...
....but I think you are confusing me with your Negro mother
n/t
"...but I think you are confusing me with your Negro mother"
This post and the one I quoted it from should be deleted. I believe it is way out of line. I will tell you that this Dr. Wogga character is another one whose posts I will not open.
Vince
n/t
Dr Wogga has denied that he's a racist, many times over, at other websites, despite writing similar posts. You will be doing him a favor by deleting his posts. Leave them up for the world to see.
His worst delusion, by the way, isn't the phony "Doctor" bit. It's that he thinks he's funny. (He does.)
I would surmise that you and John feel socialism is a better alternative. I don't. Capitalism in it's purest sense will have great disparities in income. I think John and I have had this discussion before.
A certain amount of income redistribution is probably desirable but I think we've learned as a society that the process of income redistribution has it's own ineffeciencies and inequities. Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas have some interesting ideas on how much help the black man needs today.
"I would surmise that you and John feel socialism is a better alternative."
Don't think like that, it's too binding. It's not like we have some polar opposites, clearly defined and mutually exclusive, socialism and capitalism. Look around. Was the USSR socialist - or state-capitalist? (Unless we redefine the terms, it was the latter. A philosopher stated once : "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Four words, four lies".) Is Tony Blair a socialist? Is the current regime of Turkey capitalist?
"Capitalism in it's purest sense will have great disparities in income."
...leading to what exactly? We're supposed to be at an enlightened Age (and age), where continuous peace forces us to face issues which wars used to 'resolve' for us, in the past.
I think it is fair to say that we need to pose the right questions first, rather than believe naively that we have the right answers.
"Great disparities in income" are supposed to be beneficial to progress. Progress to where?
"A certain amount of income redistribution is probably desirable but I think we've learned as a society that the process of income redistribution has it's own ineffeciencies and inequities."
There is no perfect system, there is only striving for perfection. With our current state of knowledge, we must also accept that, nonetheless, perfection is not achievable.
Income redistribution (ie striving to amend the gross distortions which capitalism begets in social relations) is a noble cause, which cannot be perfectly accomplished. Do away with it? Are societies with less income redistribution "happier" than societies with more? Or are the former simply "stronger"? The rate of capital accumulation makes for "stronger" countries and nice per capita figures. As poker players, you should know that per capita figures are as useful as the odds of being dealt pocket rockets.
"Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas have some interesting ideas on how much help the black man needs today."
When I want to share a can of Coke (or was it Pepsi?) with Clarence Thomas is the day I will have accepted him as a rightful Supreme Court Judge. But, I'll give him that: he tries hard to prove his critics wrong; his penance goes a long way.
A lot of questions here. I'll do my best.
>>Don't think like that, it's too binding.<<
No.
>>It's not like we have some polar opposites, clearly defined and mutually exclusive, socialism and capitalism.<<
Economies are mixed for the most part.
>>Look around. Was the USSR socialist - or state-capitalist? (Unless we redefine the terms, it was the latter. A philosopher stated once : "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Four words, four lies".)<<
Socialist with an economy that was planned as opposed to free markets. It failed miserably. A very ineffecient and static economic system.
>> Is Tony Blair a socialist?<<
Yeah.
>> Is the current regime of Turkey capitalist? <<
I don't know.
>>"Capitalism in it's purest sense will have great disparities in income." ...leading to what exactly?<<
Free markets, lots of personal freedom.
>> We're supposed to be at an enlightened Age (and age), where continuous peace forces us to face issues which wars used to 'resolve' for us, in the past. <<
Sure.
>>"Great disparities in income" are supposed to be beneficial to progress. Progress to where? <<
Free competitive markets, economic growth, lots of consummer choices.
>>"A certain amount of income redistribution is probably desirable but I think we've learned as a society that the process of income redistribution has it's own ineffeciencies and inequities." There is no perfect system, there is only striving for perfection. With our current state of knowledge, we must also accept that, nonetheless, perfection is not achievable.<<
Good what we have today is much better than the liberal democratic approach that was undertaken in the great society programs of the 60's. What a miserable failure they were.
>>Income redistribution (ie striving to amend the gross distortions which capitalism begets in social relations) is a noble cause, which cannot be perfectly accomplished. Do away with it?<<
No you want more redistribution of income. I'll take the status quo.
>> Are societies with less income redistribution "happier" than societies with more?<<
My experience has been yes.
>> Or are the former simply "stronger"? <<
I think they're stronger.
>>The rate of capital accumulation makes for "stronger" countries and nice per capita figures. As poker players, you should know that per capita figures are as useful as the odds of being dealt pocket rockets. <<
I'll take all the pocket rockets I can get and take my chances with them. I think we both agreed there is a great disparity in income under captilism.
>> "Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas have some interesting ideas on how much help the black man needs today." When I want to share a can of Coke (or was it Pepsi?) with Clarence Thomas is the day I will have accepted him as a rightful Supreme Court Judge. But, I'll give him that: he tries hard to prove his critics wrong; his penance goes a long way. <<
Huh? Well the point was that these two gentleman happen to be black and take a much different position than your apparent one regarding remidies for the plight of the poor.
"The point was that [Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas] happen to be black and take a much different position than your apparent one regarding remidies for the plight of the poor."
You infer too much. "My" remedy is not socialism, but I cannot ignore that the field of competition is NOT as level as you want to believe, either.
And, whatever its shortcomings, careful and humble human intervention should be, by definition, preferable over the infamous, invisible hand of the "markets". Blind faith in that "hand" is akin to gamblers' fallacies.
T.H. : "Free markets, lots of personal freedom."C : "Capitalism in it's purest sense will have great disparities in income. ...leading to what exactly?"
Equality in the face of the market is not equality at all. Need that be demonstrated in some mathematical fashion?
We simply must accept (at least, I do) that inequality presents less problems than equality - and from then on it becomes a moral choice: do we strive for more equality or do we go totally the pure, "natural" road? T.H. : "Free competitive markets, economic growth, lots of consummer choices."C : "Great disparities in income are supposed to be beneficial to progress. Progress to where?"
Obviously you equate happiness with economic growth and rampant consumerism. I have it on good authority that unchecked capitalism, that is capitalism driven to its logical conclusion, is a total disaster, if not for anything else, for the planet we're living on.
Question: is human intervention acceptable or is it not, in deciding how the development of LDCs is achieved? Is if it isn't, we should let the "markets decide" and let countries like China, for example, copy the exact (and successful) American model. And have one billion Chinese owning cars and burning up fossil fuels to "get around, round". Does the fact that the U.S. uses up 30% of the world's natural resources enter the discussion at any point?...
"I'll take all the pocket rockets I can get and take my chances with them."
Be my guest - but you missed the point : per capita figures (like Kuwait's per capita GNP, for example) are meaningless unless you know what each percentile earns, who owns the assets, etc. Same as with pocket rockets. What good is knowing in Hold'em that you will be dealt AA on average once every 221 hands, if you don't have a clue what to do with 'em afterwards?
>>"The point was that [Thomas Sowell and Clarence Thomas] happen to be black and take a much different position than your apparent one regarding remidies for the plight of the poor." You infer too much. "My" remedy is not socialism, but I cannot ignore that the field of competition is NOT as level as you want to believe, either.<<
Perhaps not socialism but certainly you are advocating a lot more taxation and spending.
>>And, whatever its shortcomings, careful and humble human intervention should be, by definition, preferable over the infamous, invisible hand of the "markets". Blind faith in that "hand" is akin to gamblers' fallacies. <<
I don’t know if you have noticed but the US government does intervene in the markets. The invisible hand actually works fairly well. You apparently want a lot more government intervention than exists now.
>>C : "Capitalism in it's purest sense will have great disparities in income. ...leading to what exactly?" T.H. : "Free markets, lots of personal freedom." Equality in the face of the market is not equality at all. Need that be demonstrated in some mathematical fashion?<<
Equality is a new term that you have introduced. Apparently you feel there is something wrong with disparate incomes.
>>We simply must accept (at least, I do) that inequality presents less problems than equality - <<
I don’t.
>>and from then on it becomes a moral choice: do we strive for more equality or do we go totally the pure, "natural" road? <<
Right you want the US government to redistribute income in a more drastic manner than what is being done now. More taxation, more spending is what you are advocating. Apparently the ideal situation for you would be to have no disparity in income. To you use your words if there was equality in income there would be a lot less problems in your mind. You seem to want to label my position as an extreme one. Read my earlier post on income redistribution. You’re the one that is advocating change not me.
>>C : "Great disparities in income are supposed to be beneficial to progress. Progress to where?" T.H. : "Free competitive markets, economic growth, lots of consummer choices."
>>Obviously you equate happiness with economic growth and rampant consumerism. I have it on good authority that unchecked capitalism, that is capitalism driven to its logical conclusion, is a total disaster, if not for anything else, for the planet we're living on. <<
Again you’re putting words in my mouth. I simply question. I don’t remember advocating “unchecked capitalism.” I’ll just remind you that you are the one advocating change.
>>Question: is human intervention acceptable or is it not, in deciding how the development of LDCs is achieved?<<
Of course it is. Do you have any doubt that the US government intervenes today? I have no doubt that government intervention is desirable. It’s to the degree where we differ. Remember I’m advocating the status quo and you’re the one that is advocating change.
>> Is if it isn't, we should let the "markets decide" and let countries like China, for example, copy the exact (and successful) American model. And have one billion Chinese owning cars and burning up fossil fuels to "get around, round".<<
So success should be limited to the US only is that your point?
>> Does the fact that the U.S. uses up 30% of the world's natural resources enter the discussion at any point?...<<
Possibly.
>>"I'll take all the pocket rockets I can get and take my chances with them." Be my guest - but you missed the point : per capita figures (like Kuwait's per capita GNP, for example) are meaningless unless you know what each percentile earns, who owns the assets, etc. Same as with pocket rockets. What good is knowing in Hold'em that you will be dealt AA on average once every 221 hands, if you don't have a clue what to do with 'em afterwards? <<
I didn’t miss your point I just didn’t think it was worthwhile.
T.H. : "So success should be limited to the US only is that your point?"C (sarcastically): "We should let the "markets decide" and let countries like China, for example, copy the exact (and successful) American model. And have one billion Chinese owning cars and burning up fossil fuels to "get around, round"."
Ergo, the American model is successful, per Tom Haley.
T.H. : "Possibly."C : "Does the fact that the U.S. uses up 30% of the world's natural resources enter the discussion at any point?.."
How about right now? If the American model is succesful, it is worth emulating the world over, and not reserve it only for the U.S. - right? Please explain then, how the planet will cope with the Chinese, in my example, gas guzzling their way to consumer paradise?
Without human intervention, at the scale I support, we would have to shop around for another planet pretty soon. But I guess that's what consumer freedom means...
Remember the film The Producers? Very, very funny. But here we are, selling the idea that every country aspiring to the American way of life can consume 30% of the planet's resources. How many 30 percents are there anyway?
T.H. : "I don’t."C : "We simply must accept (at least, I do) that inequality presents less problems than equality.."
Read my position again, carefully. By your response to it, you seem to sugest that equality has less problems than inequality! (If ( was Dr Wogga, I would respond by sugegsting you get the hell out to Cuba, you dirty commie!) So, allow me to elaborate : I'm saying that, in the eternal tension/struggle between liberty and equality, we should be biased towards liberty, at the expense of equality.
"Apparently you feel there is something wrong with disparate incomes."
I introduced the term "equality" to simply point out that we have unequal freedoms, depending on our income, in the face of the market. AGAIN : Equality in the face of the market is not equality at all - we must accept that disparate incomes result in disparities of freedom.
Re-read the part about liberty & equality and you may understand that I'm not suggesting equality of incomes, but, simply, that we must begin our analysis from the fact that disparity of incomes is neither an end in itself nor some stand-alone, inconsequential curio. It has far-reaching effects into the rights and the status of citizens in society. What we do about that, is another matter.
See you around.
I'm going to snip previous dialog.
>>Ergo, the American model is successful, per Tom Haley. <<
yes very.
>>How about right now? If the American model is succesful, it is worth emulating the world over, and not reserve it only for the U.S. - right?<<
I'm not interested that much in how other countries form their economic system. It's a choice that people of a society make. I've told you what mine is.
>>Without human intervention, at the scale I support, we would have to shop around for another planet pretty soon.<<
You haven't been very specific on what you would recommend. I'm almost positive it is a lot more taxation and spending. Tax and spend liberalism. Another example of your "loaded" rhetoric about planet Earth. How come you haven't offered any opinions regarding the electricity shortage in California? Obviously a big part of the problem there is poor government planning. There are many, many more examples.
>> But I guess that's what consumer freedom means... <<
No it doesn't.
>>Remember the film The Producers? Very, very funny. But here we are, selling the idea that every country aspiring to the American way of life can consume 30% of the planet's resources. How many 30 percents are there anyway? <<
10/3
>>Read my position again, carefully. By your response to it, you seem to sugest that equality has less problems than inequality! (If ( was Dr Wogga, I would respond by sugegsting you get the hell out to Cuba, you dirty commie!) So, allow me to elaborate : I'm saying that, in the eternal tension/struggle between liberty and equality, we should be biased towards liberty, at the expense of equality. <<
Ok.
>>I introduced the term "equality" to simply point out that we have unequal freedoms, depending on our income, in the face of the market. AGAIN : Equality in the face of the market is not equality at all - we must accept that disparate incomes result in disparities of freedom<<
To extrapolate your arguement, the less disparity in income the less disparity in personal freedom. Hmmmmm........ Remember the Soviet Union?
>>Re-read the part about liberty & equality and you may understand that I'm not suggesting equality of incomes, but, simply, that we must begin our analysis from the fact that disparity of incomes is neither an end in itself nor some stand-alone, inconsequential curio.<<
No it's just a characteristic of capitalism.
>> It has far-reaching effects into the rights and the status of citizens in society. What we do about that, is another matter.<<
Government intervention has far-reaching effects inot the right the status of citizens in society. What we do about that, is another matter.
>>See you around. <<
Hope not.
n/t
Tom,
You're right; we have had this discussion before. You seem to believe, however, that addressing social and capital inequality can be reduced to an either/or discussion. I don't like the workings of capitalism; therefore, I prefer socialism. Not true. Hell, I'm pretty happy, but many Americans aren't.
I remember one time at a former place of employment when the vice-president handed me a flow chart to show the "chain of command": The president at the top, the vice-presidents spread out below, next the managers, and finally the workers. This chart was in the shape of a pyramid. I left it tacked to the wall upside down.
If you black people think you deserve the $$$ for that slavery thing, then you should be the first one to say that the Native Americans deserve it before you. The American Goverment did a hell of a job in almost eratacting their race, (makes Hitler look a mere nusiance) Lets hear you guys fight for the indians rights first then well talk about your handout!
My answer is no, and I will take the liberty of adding 'why' (even though you only invited the 'yeses' to elaborate:-))
There have been many wrongs committed on a massive scale throughout history. If reparations could be made to those directly influenced I think this might well be a good thing. However, so many generations have passed since the time of slavery in this country that I think the connection to present day descendants is essentially only historical and ancestral. In other words those living today were not those who were wronged, nor is their present-day condition substantially and adversely impacted by such long-past historical wrongs.
If someone had stolen something from, or wronged, or killed my great-great-great-great-great grandfather I really cannot see why I should be entitled to any compensation for it. In the above hypothetical scenario, his children might well have been entitled to something, and just possibly his grandchildren, but as succeeding generations pass the connection gets weaker and weaker until there is essentially no impact on the condition of the present-day descendants.
Of course historical awareness of things such a slavery is valuable in itself, and may be a factor in preventing future tragedies of a similar and massive nature.
Caring about other humans is the sign of being a "bleeding heart liberal"...
Then I am proud to be one.
Cheers,
Keith
^
Sorry...... that was meant to be posted under Goat's post...
Keith
ppppppppp
,,,
(NT)
.
>>nor is their present-day condition substantially and adversely impacted by such long-past historical wrongs.<<
You can't be serious.
I am serious. I do not think that the condition of African-Amerecans today is substantially and adversely affected by something that took place in the 1800's. For that matter, I do not think that the condition of ANY large group of Americans today is substantially and adversely affected by something that took place in the 1800's.
"They didn't just magically arrive in the state they're in. They arrived there through a process, a process that started with slavery."
That's a quote from a college history teacher I had, that was one of the few comments of his that really stuck in my head.
Weak-Tight, I am here, because my ancestors inmigrated to this country. It might have been good for them at the time, but surely is no good for me now. I am not happy here and I want lo leave, and I want the goverment to pay me 10 million before I go. I deserve it. Please see that I get the check.
M-
You don't think that a group of people being made to serve as 'slaves', had anything to do with the fact that less than 70 years ago, this same group of people were still riding on backs of buses and being treated as second class humans beings? Assuming you can put that connection together, don't you think this might have something to do with the fact that many blacks today have grandparents who were deprived equal education and other opportunities which impact their lifestyle even today?
There is a connection, but the further back in time you look, the weaker the connection gets to the present. That is my main point---that by now the effects of slavery have been largely dissipated with regards to the condition of and opportunities available to African-Americans today.
I agree the connection has been diluted some over time. But they are still suffering effects from it. To the point where there is little doubt that at least some blacks continue to live at a significantly lower standard of living than had they never been prejudiced against, and always been treated as equal. To deny this, is to live somewhere outside of reality.
As to reparations, I'm not sure where I stand.
Yes, I agree with your statement and never wrote anything contradictory.
It is primarily the effects of prejudicial treatment in the 1900's (legal and otherwise), however, not slavery in the 1800's, that is responsible for whatever degree of adverse effects still remain today.
Thats not your great, great, great anything. Thats the year that American apartheid ended.
African-Americans had the right to vote before 1965; however, an appropriate date might be 1954 when, in Brown v. Board of Education, the US Supreme Court struck down separate but equal established in, I think, 1896 with Plessy v. Fergusen (sp?).
John
Look it up. IT is the first law which guaranteed that Blacks could vote. Jim Crow laws disenfranchised Blacks in the South prior to that. Of Course, George and J.E.B> Bush revised Jim Crow law tactics in FLorida. Affirmative access means that the Bushes affirm that you have no right to vote, and plenty of access to the prison system for trying.
Note that the Voting Rights Act of 1965 guaranteed already established rights and removed impediments, such as literacy tests, for African-Americans. It did not, however, secure Blacks the right to vote. That right had already been established. I do agree that the law had a very positive effect on voter registration and turnout.
Also, I'm hardly a fan of the Bushes, but you are making absurd statements. George W.'s most staunch critics, those who claim he is unfit to be President, maintain that he is without prejudice, a rare quality for many Southern politicians.
John
"George W.'s most staunch critics, those who claim he is unfit to be President, maintain that he is without prejudice, "
Yeah, tell that to Al Gore! Besides wasn't George W. a slave holder before he became president or was it before he was a General? Oh you mean the present president George W. He ain't prejudice. He don't care who he fries. Burn, baby, burn, electric inferno!
Vince
Yes, and civil rights injustices and prejudicial treatment, being more recent, are more likely to have had substantial and adverse impacts upon today's African-Americans than is slavery which was long enough ago that its effects have by today been more fully dissipated.
Should white women be compensated?
Does this country have Lotto fever or what?
It's just another example of a few people trying to get something for nothing. I am sure that the vast majority of black people feel the same way. These few special interst types are the ones that can tend to give a group of people a bad name. Thankfully rational people don't give them all a bad name just because of a few idiots that propose such things. I'll bet anything that it was some feel good bleeding heart liberal that first brought up the idea of reparations.
"It's just another example of a few people trying to get something for nothing."
I couldn't agree more.
The 20/20 segment last night on ABC showed all those African American suckers being swindled into joining up for $50 to suposedly help further the cause. It reminded me of all those hopefuls who line up for miles in front of Hawthorne's semi-famous Blue Jay liquor store hoping to hit the Lotto when it gets enormous.
of course the lawyers would take their standard 1/3.
brad
I think if you start scouring history and dole out reparations for anyone whose ancestors suffered great savagery and denial of human rights, each and every person on the face of this earth would be entitled to get paid.
What a ridiculous notion. Get a life. Get an education. Pay yourself.
Those descendents who want it, deserve a one way ticked to any airport in Africa and $500 resettlement money.
I sure wish they would have picked their own cotton and left the poor Africans where they were born.
Rounder,
dammit..you better be picking rice..out of your hair today...
a wedding, remember?
Hope I don't regret it. But I think I will.
Hey I'm planning my return to the Hollywood felt soon. Be sure to say hi.
Mike
This is my ugly mug.
their own, or the tribe down the river, into slavery should pay reparations...of course the current AA politicians are selling their own down the river now...jmho
nt
This might be the most disgusting (and ignorant) post I've seen on this site.
This website is apparently full of numbskull yahoos, ready to pound their chest at the slightest threat to their gun-carrying, flag-waving machismo. Good ol' boys, with the lynchin' glint still aflame in their eyes.
Ah, pawker!.. Ye cayn't git more Amer'can 'an that!...
You wrote:
"You haven't seen nothing yet"
Shouldn't that be "You h'aint seen nuthin' yit"?
if the rolling blackouts happen in large urban areas for an extended period this summer we'll see how the philosophy of non-defense and 'minorities have the same if not better culture as everyone else' fares.
brad
Jesus Rounder!
I sure wish they would have picked their own cotton and left the poor Africans where they were born.
I feel for the people who were enslaved, but think of what a lousy and boring place America would be if it hadn't happened.
?
...Among other things :
Blues
Jazz
Rock 'n Roll
Soul
Sports (virtually every sport)
Way English is now spoken (all over the world, actually)
Sense of color
Sense of style
More casual attitude towards life in general, a nice, hugely needed counter-weight to the white-protestant work ethic.
nt
...America would be a lousy and boring place? I guess those who find it a lousy and boring place now would do so regardless, and those who find it otherwise, likewise.
My man, even without ONE "thing" of them, America would be a "lost and boring" place as you put it. I mean, can you imagine life without rock 'n roll?..
Easily, and while I like some rock, in my near ideal world, we would instead hear the greatest music ever written frequently blasted from teenager's car windows---mostly Mozart, of course.
Cyrus,
A recommendation for you. Abbey Lincoln's classic LP Straight Ahead has been reissued on CD (finally! My Lp is worn out). The record includes such "sidemen" as Max Roach, Eric Dolphy, and Coleman Hawkins. The title song should be as well known as Billie Holiday's "Strange Fruit." You can do a quick search on Google and find downloadable Real Media clips.
John
For some this road is smooth and easy,/ Traveling high without a care./ But if you got to use the backroads,/ Straight ahead can lead nowhere.
I'm not too big on Jazz but I do listen. Thanks for the pointer. ("Eric Dolphy Memorial Barbecue" is the first time I heard the name, for example! That was a Zappa track. I may have the title wrong a bit.)
I think there have been a great deal of intellectual contributions made to our society by black people as well. Here's the funny thing, I actually find Rounder's statement less offensive than yours.
Rounder's statement:
>>Those descendents who want it, deserve a one way ticked to any airport in Africa and $500 resettlement money.<<
Ok Rounder doesn't want to pay reparations for slavery. I don't either.
>>I sure wish they would have picked their own cotton and left the poor Africans where they were born.<<
So Rounder wishes that the "poor Africans" would have never been enslaved. Is there something wrong with this? I think this country's legacy of slavery is awful and ugly and I wish it would have never happened.
PhatMack
>>I feel for the people who were enslaved, but think of what a lousy and boring place America would be if it hadn't happened.<<
I don't think slavery was a necessary in order to have black people become contributing members in American society.
I think that you might be surprised to find out how many black people would be offended by your statement as oppossed to Rounder's. There is a young family a few houses away who happens to be black. The father is an officer in the Air Force and has a master's degree in engineering. He doesn't do any entertaining though. Neither does a fully tenured PHD professor of math at New Mexico Tech who my wife rides in a shuttle van with. Yeah he's black too. My step daughter's boyfriend does a pretty funny imitation of Clinton but for the most part he's studying to be an engineer at UNM and working in the evenings. Yeah he's black too. I hate rap music, I really don't understand a lot of cultural issues regarding Afro-Americans, most of my friends are white, so I don't consider myself very knowledgeable or sensitive to the problems of black people in American society. Your post seems to put a stereotype on blacks that in my mind seems demeaning. You did right among other things so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
"Your post seems to put a stereotype on blacks that in my mind seems demeaning."
I understand that it's tricky talking about such things. One feels the need (and the pressure) to tiptoe through sentences and words. I'm not.
It is a matter of scientific fact that different people in different parts of the world have developed different cultures - and different civilisations. We are at a stage of knowledge where the differences are no longer assigned to biological or other such 'characteristics' but to more mundane reasons. (Humbly recommended reading : "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond.)
Having said that, it is naive to characterize any discussion about actual and documented contributions to culture by a particular social or ethnic group as "stereotyping". It is not. Jews have contributed some very colorful words to the English language. Is it stereotyping to say that we thank the Jews for words such as "schmuck"?!
Now, ethnic groups, of course, do get assimilated within a larger society, given enough time. Your examples (black neighbor in the Air Force, etc) are typical and do not disprove nor do they diminish any of the proven contributions to the "American way of life" by African-imported blacks and their children.
And I do understand why and how some blacks, today, would get "offended" when I name their progeny's achievements. Even if I say that the list of the best American musicians (for example) is dominated by blacks, they would automatically assume that I credit them with only that! Blacks in America, because of still pervasive racism, are usually on the defensive - and who can blame them.
-- Cyrus
P.S. : In the end, this reparations idea (a) will damage the position of blacks in society, (b) will play into the hands of demagogues from both sides, (c) will line the pockets of scumbaga, including the lawyers, and (d) will come to nothing but grief.
... You are pathetic.
Cyrus,
Please stop defending us white people..please
I can't believe I'm the only one not offended by Cyrus. Of course, maybe that's a good thing. I'm not big on the "I'm really not a racist, but..." attitude. I just can't believe no one's accidentally dropped an N-bomb, yet.
........
Read Cyrus. Ignore his comments on work ethic. Add Tonk and Penicillan.
Actually I disagree with the concept that there exists a Black culture and a White culture. I think there is an American culture that is a synthesis of contributions made by whites, blacks, Indians and a hundred other groups. I know it's pollitically incorrect to extoll the old idea of the "melting pot," but by my oberservations of the way we think, the way we speak, the way we live -- that's exactly what we are: mongrels. (If you object to the word mongrel, substitute "products of hybrid vigor.")
Imagining an America without the contributions of Blacks would be analagous to a fish imagining life without water. Or, better yet, imagine spending 24/7 watching curling on television and listening to Gordon Lightfoot records. No, hold on, that would be Canada.
"Ignore his comments on [the anglo-saxon protestant] work ethic."
Ignore 'em at your loss! Read Weber's classic and come back tell me about it.
And go easy on the Tonk..
???
If tournaments ever get sponsorship I'm sure they'll want Rounder as their spokesman.
That would be funny, a commercial with a ship packed with black Americans going back to Africa, with Rounder at the helm holding a champagne glass making a toast to the camera.
NT
Why should I have to pay for an injustice committed many years before my grandparents got here? The only answer is: the color of my skin. That is bigotry
,,,
These are my favorite action fights of all-time:
Hagler/Hearns, Moore/Durelle, Robinson/LaMotta VI, Holmes/Norton, Arguello/Pryor I and II, Patterson/Johannsen I II and III, Dempsey/Firpo, Ali/Frazier III, Foreman/Lyle, Duran/DeJesus II, Zale/Graziano I and II, Marciano/Walcott I, Basilio/DeMarco.
Bare-knuckle: Gracie/Kimo, Frye/Bittetti, Smith/Coleman, Abott/Matua, Taktarov/Severn, Hackney/Yarborough.
That's quite a list. I remember the last round of Holmes/Norton. Each guy must have hit the other guy as hard as they could at least a dozen times.
One fight I would add is the second Demsey/Tunney known for the long count. Years ago I watched a show where Howard Cossel was interviewing Mohammed Ali as they watch old fight films. Ali's comment was that Tunney was the first modern fighter pointing out that he moved differently from his predecessors and threw shorter straighter punches instead of the big looping punches of a Demsey.
My favorite: Michael Carbajal v Humberto Gonzalez. I know I've posted that before, but what can I say, I'm a phx homey.
JG
Yo homey, Edgar "Bad News" Wallace versus Carbajal... Now that's the dream fight we'll never see, eh?
EBNW was a middleweight, tho, right? I remember seeing him fight Ladmo once in a charity exhibition.
JG
Not much is said about this champ but I think he was a great one. And I think he had the most bad decisions made against him when defending his title and attempts to regain it. I'm afraid I don't remember any of his opponents (except Spinks?) where he got robbed. But I was so disgusted by these fights and the lousy decisions that I swore off ever watching another fight again for a long time.
I don't think that Holmes got robbed since he was 49-0 when he fought Spinks and lost. For years he was one of the surest bets in Las Vegas, but he probably did win the second Spinks fight.
The reason he doesn't get the credit he deserves is that he came along at a time when the heavyweight division was a little weak. He also may have lost to Whitherspoon even though he got the decision. But he had an incredible left jab and his ringsmanship was tremendous.
Wasn't there a fight that was possibly in the making about a year or two ago, where George Forman and Holmes where going to fight? Or maybe it was going to be with Fraser, I can't remember.
Outside of the major tournaments, where is pot limit (Holdem or Omaha) played in the US - in public cardrooms - and at what limits? I am interested in about 5-10 blinds and upwards.
Thanks and apologies if this is the wrong forum.
Oh no!! Not again!
by my understanding there is often a game or two going on on the weekends in tunica, and if you are willing to travel to the middle of nowhere there is a 10/25 blind pot limit omaha game that has gone every friday I have been at the silverstar casino in philadelphia,ms for quite some time.
Good action flick and the bonus is Nazis and Russians killing each other in massive numbers - funny thing is most of the actors had British accents. :-)
I was rooting for the Russians but didn't mind it much when a few of the Commies got knocked off.
Jude Law is outstanding and heroic in this epic, despite being a "commie". Look for great things from this actor.
btw, He has a British accent because he is British, but I figure that it doesn't matter what kind of accent they have since they shouldn't even be speaking English if you want to be a stickler for details.
I loved the scene where Jude Law and Joseph Fiennes first meet. Where Joseph Fiennes first learns of Law's sharp shooting ability, while sitting in a pool of dead bodies. That scene is awesome.
Jude Law was also great in "The Talented Mr. Ripley" and "Gattaca".
Good Luck
Howard
I thought Jude Law and Ed Harris were very good, but I could have done without the silly love triangle thing. I felt the story was strong enough to stand on its own without it. You didn't see Tom Hanks falling for some lovely French wench in Private Ryan, did you?
..
Rounder,
I just saw “Enemy at the Gates” and thought it was a fine movie. My “anti-Communist” credentials are impeccable with ten years working on submarine weapon systems during the eighties. That being said, there is no question that the Soviet Union bore the brunt of suffering during World War 2 and was the nation most responsible for the ultimate fall of Hitler. Yes, we contributed vast amount of arms to Stalin under lend-lease, but the Russians spilled the most blood in Europe.
After I came home, I browsed a few sights containing information about this battle and the role of snipers. I stumbled upon a sight about the battle with a forum that debates the movie among other topics. Here is a link for anyone that is interested.
Link To Forum About Battle Of Stalingrad
Regards,
Rick
"but the Russians spilled the most blood in Europe. "
Stalin had a way with spilling Russian blood. Seems he spilled a lot of it himself. Of course it was white russian blood he spilled. I wonder if that makes him a racist.
Vince
Vince,
Hey, I just responded to you on another forum! Anyway, there is no question Stalin was an evil SOB and that he was the greatest mass-murderer in history (in terme of numbers). The Cold War was fought for good reason and I hope the young of today understand that (but I doubt it).
I just found another link about the sniper duel in the movie. I'm not sure how much is BS or not but here it is.
Background on Sniper Duel From "Enemy at the Gates"
Regards,
Rick
Snipers played a very marginal, if not inconsequential role, in the long battle. But I don't have a problem if it makes for a good, entertaining movie. As it is, most Westerns have been works of pure fiction, if not fantasy. I still enjoy very much a good Western. The facts of capturing a Nazi sub with the Enigma code onboard, have also been presented totally wrongly on the screen, very recently.
So what? Since when are we supposed to learn History from the movies?? (Don't answer that.)
You wrote: ”Snipers played a very marginal, if not inconsequential role, in the long battle. But I don't have a problem if it makes for a good, entertaining movie.”
Agreed, although the fact was that each building in the city was contested and they demoralized the German's. The major significance of the Battle of Stalingrad was that the German Army extended itself too far, left its flanks poorly protected by weak allied armies, and was cut off in a giant Russian counteract from the north and south that left the German Army inside the city in an isolated pocket. Eventually the entire German force was destroyed or captured, with most of the remaining German soldiers near starvation when they surrendered.
”The facts of capturing a Nazi sub with the Enigma code onboard, have also been presented totally wrongly on the screen, very recently.”
Also agreed. “U-571” was a joke. The worst scene was an underwater sub- to-sub direct hit with World War 2 type torpedoes. It never could have happened that way.
That being said, “Saving Private Ryan” provided a very realistic depiction of the Omaha Beach landing, even if the underlying story was a fabrication. I do have high hopes for the upcoming HBO movie “Band of Brothers”.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
Note the title, and brush up your Shakespeare; you might be disappointed.
BTW, last semester I chose the Code Breaking, the Enigma Machine, and Navajo Code Talkers for research paper topics for my classes. (I don't want to read any crap about unwed mothers, dead-beat dads, euthanasia, or abortion.) One group of students looked at the Polish contribution to code breaking. An interesting paper.
John
John,
I'm so lacking in my knowledge of Shakespear that your response goes completely over my head. I still think it was a good movie, but by no means covered the whole battle.
Regarding Enigma, I'm just glad the allies were able to recover a machine and generally break the enemy codes throughout the war. We needed every advantage back then.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
Actually, I meant "Band of Brothers." Check out Henry V's speech: "We few, we happy few, we band of brothers." It's quite the rousing speech.
John
"Henry V's speech. It's quite the rousing speech."
...Not when delivered by Kenneth Branagh it isn't.
Sorry, Cyrus, couldn't resist. Of course you know we learn history at the movies. I learned all about Vietnam from The Green Berets and Commie hunting from Big Jim McClain.
John
PS. I've read Haydn White.
Interesting choice for research papers, Mr Cole!
By chance, I happened to read a book about Enigma some months ago and was taken especially with the Navajos' contribution. I tried to find out more about their oral-only language, which was the key to their coding efforts, but could not. The Poles' contribution I knew about.
--- Rick Nebiolo posted that "back then", the Allies "needed all the advantage [they] could get". I wonder if the post-war theme, in movies, TV and pulp, of saving the world at the very last minute was not a collective neurotic unloading of the subsconscious understanding of how close each of the two World War II opposite sides were to victory!
All those close calls (the bomb, Normandy, the London blitz, Russian campaign, etc), are they to blame for some of the adventure fare we've been fed with?
.
Those actually violated were given some $20k each - it was a fairly current event and I think it was justified.
Relatives weren't given anything just those actually put in the camps were paid off.
These were good citizens and it could have happened to Germans and Italians (like my parents and grand parents) but racism prevailed.
and/or their "IMMEDIATE" family, but not their great great great great great grandchildren.
It's been a couple of weeks since the advertising banners have been with us and I for one don't know what all the fuss was about. I think it is similar to when the format of the forum was changed 9 months or so ago. There was quite an uproar over that but now I can barely remember what the forum used to look like. The current format is very good.
I'm sure S & M can tell you that running this forum is not without it's costs (both money and time) so why shouldn't they make money from advertisers if they can. I doubt very much they sell enough books to make this forum worth while from a pure financial point of view. So if the survival of this forum means we have to see more advertising then I think that is worth it. Where the banners are currently situated hardly interfers with your ability to read and use the forum so I don't think it's such a big deal.
i havent heard too much of the feeney twins lately. you know feeney and antifeeney. maybe when matter and antimatter meet they really do cancel out.
Anti is doing fine looking forward to golf season this year it's about time I took it up again. Now that I've been canceled out by bro's demeanor I may be able to get thru 18 holes without losing it. His psycho=matter sessions at Oceans 11 developed strong anti breakdown of all my sensory organs (not that there was much left to them) and I've become a dull inordinate object.
Bailing water out of my cellar for two days straight tends to drive all the ANTI out of me too!!!!
Dryer days are coming.
Anti
I have reason to believe F is posting under the name scott. When I called him on it, he gave some lame excuse about his computer doing it automatically. Funny what these psycho-babble guys think the rest of us will believe.
I've just been busy untangling a Slinky. I found it tangled the day bro left Oceanside. Sup widat?
Brett
p.s. Bro, maybe try Phoenix. Annual rainfall about zilch.
Fossilman is going to fix you, scott. What are you going to do when you can only post under one moniker?
I'll just go back to posting under "Jim Geeery".
BTW, don't ask me an advanced number theory question, the answering of which would only confirm that I'm scott. I'm enjoying using John's name for now.
I had always thought that if a dealer has started to shuffle prior to being tapped out, he or she should continue dealing and get the next hand out. More and more, I am seeing dealers who upon noticing their replacement coming from across the room, will put shuffled cards down and wait to be tapped out! This blatent display of laziness REALLY bugs me! What's the proper protocal here?
Saw this flick last night.
Would give it 1 out of 5. Deniro is good, as always, but why does he lower himself to act in such films? Almighty dollar I guess.
Story is stupid and any symbolism (whatever there is) is contrived and so simple a 5 year old kid could get it. Very similar to Natural Born Killers and just as bad, if that's possible.
Yet another example of $50 million and nothing to show for it.
How much do CardPlayer and Poker Digest pay their writers?
Since the day they gave W the White House I have no respect for the US Supreme Court. Am I wrong to feel that way?
The supreme crooks (the gang of 5) all had major financial conflicts. We now live under a military dictator that paid them off.
I can't wait to hear the thoughtful insight of Irish Charm on the this topic.
nt
Congress passed a law in the 1880's stipulating that election rules could not be changed after elections take place.
The seven Democratic Florida Supreme Court justices created new laws on two different occasions in order to manufacture a victory for Al Gore.
The point behind Al Gore's selective manual recount scheme was that the counters would be Democrats. One of the canvassing board members actually swallowed chads that fell off some of the ballots.
There was also an equal protection issue. A ballot which would count for Gore at one canvassing table might count for Bush at another table, even in the same county.
The US Supreme Court was unwillingly dragged into the election because of the unlawful actions of the rogue Democratic Florida Supreme Court.
The US Supreme Court was the atomic bomb, so to speak. The election could not have been resolved any other way.
Every INDEPENDENT group that has gotten a hold of the ballots has concluded that Bush did indeed win more votes that Gore, however close.
The number of disenfranchised voters(mostly black) that faced intentional obstacles put in place by the JEB Bush administration outnumbered the Bush vote by THOUSANDS, ask the MIami Herald. Of course, John Ashcroft, an Elmer Gantry if there ever was one, will never investigate JEB Bush. Nor would he investigate lynchings, Jim Crow laws, or any other hate based Republican sponsored acts.
no tttt
.
I would be very surprised if I could read the minds of the Justices, and learned that they made their decision as an means to get Bush into office (as opposed to an attempt to properly apply the laws and the Constitution to the facts as presented).
I really don't think these people (high-level politicians and public office-holders of any party) are as conspiracy-laden as so much of the public chooses to believe nowadays. Of course, I could be wrong, but it just doesn't make sense (and I'm the kind of guy who likes things to make sense).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
oh to be as naive as you!
FossilMan: imagine this: it comes to Clarence Thomas deciding the issue, vote was 5 to 4, no conspiracy here. Does it make sense?
Clarence Thopmas' wife worked for the Bush transition team in hiring. She was extremely well compensated. That's not bribery is it? Of course it is. Fossilman is naive. I think we could sell him some good used cars!
Jeez, one little boxing post on Friday and look what happened.. :)
Foreman's "fights" against the five bums, er, opponents were a made for TV exhibition that took place in '75(?) AFTER he had lost the title to Ali. GF did fight Frazier again in 1976, then lost to Jimmy Young in '77(and was born again in the locker room afterwards).
TRIVIA QUESTION: One of the fearless five had actually fought for the title before; who was he and can you name the other four? (I can only remember 3 outa 5).
Best fights I've ever actually seen: Hagler-Hearns, Foreman-Lyle, Holmes-Norton. Foreman-Lyle recap: Both guys staggered early, one early round accidentally only two minutes long, 4th round GF down/RL down/GF down again, 5th round GF traps RL in corner and batters him til he drops facefirst and is counted out.
Guys that were never in a bad fight: Cornelius Boza-Edwards, Bazooka Limon, Danny Lopez, Bobby Chacon, Rolando Navarette, Ruben Olivares, Marvin Johnson, Saad Muhammad, Victor Galindez.
Top fighters of all time(no particular order, and I'm prejudiced towards guys with long unbeaten streaks): Ali, Louis, Duran, BENNY Leonard, Monzon, Robinson, Julio Cesar Chavez, Hagler, Bob Foster, Holmes, Armstrong.
Two great fighters with tragically shortened careers: Aaron Pryor & Salvador Sanchez.
"Pollock" is a great movie; Ed Harris & Marcia Gay Harden are absolutely fantastic; far superior to Crowe & Scarecrow.
And, no, Foreman should not get a penny from taxpayers because some of his ancestors might have been slaves.
"I'm prejudiced towards guys with long unbeaten streaks): Ali, Louis, Duran, BENNY Leonard, Monzon, Robinson, Julio Cesar Chavez, Hagler, Bob Foster, Holmes, Armstrong. "
No Marciano? 49 in a row's not long enough for you?
All credit where credit is due; Rocky was the best of his era and his heart, stamina, and power are certainly top five.
But he was relatively small and short-armed for a heavyweight and he cut easily. Ali, Holmes, Liston, Lewis and even an in shape Douglas would've butchered him with their left jabs.
Rocky defeated Louis, Walcott, Charles, and Moore when all were very near or at the ends of their careers; he had great difficulties with and was badly busted up by the later three.
Again, Rocky always won and his courage was matched only by Frazier, but had they fought in their primes, I feel Rocky would have lost to Louis, Walcott, Charles, and Moore, fighters that were roughly the same size and from the same era.
n/t
Julio Caesar Chavez's first 80 some fights were against bums. When he finally got the chance to fight the world class fighters, he lost. He lost to Whitaker (though Whitaker wuz robbed when it was scored a draw). He lost to Medrick Taylor, even though he was awarded the KO victory with no seconds remaining, thanks to a Don King referee. And of course he lost to DeLa Hoya by KO.
Salvador Sanchez would have become an all-time great. He shared "fighter of the year" with Ray Leonard in 1981.
Chacon, Limon, Navarette, and Boza-Edwards provided us with some bloody action fights. Navarette's semi-jumping left hook on Boza-Edwards' jaw was unforgetable.
How could I overlook Benny Leonard in my definitive list? He was probably the greatest lightweight ever. Perhaps greater than Duran and Armstrong.
I'm definitely gonna watch Pollock, even though I'm a much better artist than he ever was. Come to think about it, all toddlers (the human ones), chimpanzees, and elephants are better artists than Pollock. Have you ever seen Busquiat? Pretty good movie too.
JAWZ,
You're right about Chavez' early opposition. I still consider him at least top twenty. Lou Duva cost Taylor the first fight w/JCC. He climbed on the ring apron, distracting Taylor at the crucial moment when Richard Steele was asking him, "Are you OK"?. Taylor was later quoted as saying, "I wondered what the hell he was doing."
Answer to first trivia question: Terry Daniels fought Frazier for the title in 1972.
Much tougher trivia question(s): Identify the fighters(if any) who were the ones to ever knockdown George Chuvalo, Marvin Hagler, Jake LaMotta and Oscar Bonavena.
Speaking of Bonavena, how long do you think John Ruiz would've lasted with him, 30-40 seconds?
I know who didn't knock down Chuvalo: Frazier, Ali, and Foreman. But I don't know who knocked him down. For all I know, he may have never been knocked down his entire career.
I vaguely remember seeing a friend's tape of the fight in which Hagler got knocked down. It was against a minor challenger named Roldan. It did not seem to be a clean one though.
Robinson couldn't knock LaMotta down in six fights. It took a fight towards the end of LaMotta's career before he finally got knocked down. It occured during one of his last 10 fights.
Bonavena got knocked down very early in his career by a guy named Folley, whom Ali knocked out years later. Ali toyed with him before hitting him with a right straight. But when the fight was over, it appears to me that Ali hugged him and may have consoled him. Very unusual considering he kept insulting him before the fight. It has been alleged that Patterson ducked Folley many times years earlier. BTW, Ali knocked Bonavena down three times in the last round of their fight. Bonavena was one tough dude who could probably be a champion today, though not nescessarily the undisputed one.
"Speaking of Bonavena, how long do you think John Ruiz would've lasted with him, 30-40 seconds?"
It's true Tua took care of Ruiz real fast, but you have to look at more than that before you make your decision as to whether he can fight or not. And, he did have Holyfield terribly hurt and this is a guy who can take a punch.
I'm not so sure that Bonavena would destroy Ruiz because Ruiz is much faster. I do think that Bonavena would have won but it might had made an interesting match up. It will also be interesting to see exactly how good Ruiz really is. Was Holyfield shot or is there more to this fighter than most of us give him credit for?
Hey all of you that love this 2 + 2 forum. I am trying my darndess to be at David ansd Mason's pre WSOP Q & A session. I hope you all are trying hard too. I will let you all know if I can make it work. I'm sure knowing that I will be there will have a profound influence on your attendance. Maybe David and Mason should pay for my air fare. Yeah, yeah buy the ticket! Or is that "that's the ticket"? I sometimes get things mixed up. Where is John Lovett hen you need him? Hey Mason will Abdul be there?
vince
O.K I just got confimation from Priceline. they accepted my $185 RT offer from Boston to Vegas and I will be at the Sklansky and Malmuth Q & A! I know that this information will have a profound affect on attendance. I hope to see all of you that were profoundly positively affected by this wonderful bit of information. I just hope Sklansky doesn't cancel now. BTW I will ask questions about "flow" in poker. I am also taking questions via e-mail from those that can't attend but would like to participate anyway. ($.25 per question. $2.00 for the answer)
vince
Vince,
Are you sure you want to pay us $.25 for questions and $2.00 for answers? I'll start working on my list.
BTW did you read FossilMans experience with PriceLine?
I will not be going to this event, but I'll be in Vegas for the big one at Binions in May.
See Ya
mah
BTW did you read FossilMans experience with PriceLine?
No? What's up?
I'll only be there for the first 10 days.
vince
Vince,
Fossilman was using PriceLine to get a deal on an airfare to Vegas. I don't remember the details, but ask him next time you see him at Foxwoods. Have a nice trip.
I flew into Providence and rented a car for a week to drive to Foxwoods. I couldnt seem to rent a car for that week on any of the rental sites for under 60 bucks a day, so I tried Priceline. They accepted my offer of 20 bucks a day. I was going to need the car an extra day and called Budget Rental to confirm. They quoted me a price of 26.95 for that last day, plus taxes and all those extraneous fees they have corporate lawyers staying up at night to invent. I checked the car back in at the alotted time and it seems they wanted an additional 198.54 for that extra day. I was dumbfounded, and told them that charge was obscene. They told me I had no recourse, it was written in my Priceline contract. And sure enough, there in tiny itty bitty writing, it was. I was so mad, but it seems there was nothing I could do about it. I told them I was paying, but under protest. They took my card and it was so funny. Seems I had maxed out my limit at Foxwoods and only had 48 bucks credit left. Their turn to moan and groan while I snickered at the desk. Finally they told me since I was disputing the charge anyway, that I could call when I got back home and they gave me a number. The Budget spokesperson on the phone explained that it was Priceline that dictated that exhorbitant fee for any deviation from the contract and that they would over-ride Priceline and charge me the quoted $26.95, which was their standard rate for the Ford Escort I was given. So I guess Priceline is alright as long as you do not deviate at all from your plans. But boy they stick it to you if you need to change anything. But read the contract closely, especially the penalties for changing or rebooking your flight.
desire,
It sounds like you had a terrible trip. I don't know if it's worth the price to go out east to Foxwoods or even Atlantic City. It's a better deal to play poker in Vegas or Reno, because you don't have to rent a car to get around. The hotels have plenty of free shuttle bus trips. Last year I stayed at the Orleans during the Open and TOC for $45 a night on Sun.-Thur and Fri.and Sat. were $65. The Orleans has a free shuttle bus to the strip and drops you off at the Barbary Coast. Which is within walking distance of the Bellago and Mirage.
I was out at Foxwoods once ten years ago. I drove down there from Boston. At that time they didn't have poker, so I played blackjack. The place was so crowded. When I played blackjack players would put additional bets on your hand just to get in the action. The food was terrible, they just had hotdog carts. Yuk!
Anyway, I've been using Travelocity to book flights out of Chicago to Las Vegas. You usually can find good deals on National Airlines which runs NON-STOP trips out of Midway. On occasion you can get a good price on United and American. I had booked my Vegas trip for the WSOP on American this year for $209 round trip.
Good luck with your next trip.
mah
Is that TOOENTOO-ERS ? Maybe TOOPLUSTOO-ERS ?
Or is it DEUCE-ERS?
Thanks for any help in advance, I'm trying my darnedest to be a poker player.
Will the question-and-answer session be video taped and made available to watch here at 2+2? If it could be made available 'Live', now that would be an event!
[You know, not all of us can get away from the 9 to 5 thing to travel out of state.]
n/t
so don't exaggerate it into being the entire forum, or even approaching the majority.
Has Abdul Jalib ever writtin an article that was published in Card Player or Poker Digest?
TEd D,
I'm not sure but he had a great article on short-handed play published in the now defunct "Poker World".
Regards,
Rick
Thanks for what you did in regards to centering the messages that appear once you call up a post, so that it's no longer necessary to use the scroll bar(which you did away with)at the bottom of the screen to read each message.
Thank you
[I hope this isn't temporary while new advertisements are being set in place.]
It was temporary
Huh? As far as I know, nothing changed between your first and second post.
Chuck
I don't believe that Bush is a bigot. They disenfranchised blacks because they voted 19-1 for Gore. It was part of the JebBush guarantee to do "whatever it takes to deliver Florida". Serously, the Russian elections were more honest than Florida. The Red-Chinese elections might be close in fraudulent practices.
. . . the disco chair!
I hope you did.
leave Rounder alone with his pain. Why do you have to know. Why don't you show a little compation. Don't you see the tragedy of the situation. Do you think he needs to hear from you. Saying that you hope he did, makes you feel good. Like you are a better person. I have a very few perfect words for you, that would discribe you perfectly, but I am not going to say them, because I know I will be call a coward if I do. But believe me, you deserve them. There are too many people like you in this world, unfortunally.
What?
I sat on the sidelines last week while many other forum regulars offered up their encouragement and compassion (at least I know how to spell the word) to Rounder in his time of struggle. He was willing to bare his soul here, and he did so of his own free will. He received a lot of encouragement, but I had nothing to add that had not already been said.
If he didn't want to discuss the situation, why would he bring it up? You know absolutely nothing about my pre-existing relationship with Rounder both here and away from this forum, so please butt out.
If Rounder wants to email me away from the forum, or blast me in public view for "prying" into his life, then I will apologize to him and walk away from the issue. At least he knows my name and where to reach me.
You need help.
Dunc,
He posted that he didn't go. 'Nuff said from me
Sorry, desire, I missed that.
Oh, and I've always wondered....
Is it pronounced "dez-i-ray", or "dee-zire"?
Are the problems in California with electricity a failure of the free market system, government planning or am I missing other possiblities.
x
x
There are many factors that contribute to the current fiasco (if it is that) here in california. The two underlying causes are a very rapid population and economic growth rate and a "deregulation" plan that was both fundamentally flawed and not deregulation by any stretch of the imagination. Secondary factors influencing high electricity prices are the reluctance to build in-state generation facilities and generally inefficient use of electricity by consumers.
Once the situation is under control (I hope this happens) there are two things government can do to stabilize the market. The first is allow california utilities to purchase electricity futures, thus hedging against price shocks. The second is to truly deregulate the electricity market. So called Green Energy is currently subsidized in a very perverse manner. the price of all electricity on the quasi-governmental california power exchange is set so that all kilowatt hours cost as much as the marginal cost of producing the last kilowatt hour. Its a really fucked up government version of marginal cost pricing. Once this regulation is gone many problems will be solved. If you're really curious I can explain in more detail.
One thing to keep in mind though is that by most estimates, there was going to higher electricity prices in California no matter what because demand increased so rapidly.
Actually I'm quite interested. Thank you for your time.
Any feel for how much power could be conserved by efficient use of electricity? I read somewhere that if just 15% of the population replaced their air conditioners with new more efficient models savings would equal the output of a typical generating plant. This seems a little optimistic but I don't know.
its crazy how inefficiently we use the stuff. The one encouraging sign from the entire debacle is that a commission has been formed to search for relatively painless solutions to the electricity crunch. A seasoned engineer who is on the committee estimates that an office building with a white roof will save up to 40% on the AC bill. Now that is a huge savings in most of Urban California. prices are also going up no matter what so I'm sure the almighty dollar will motivate the use of some good old human ingenuity.
Let me see. California has had restrictive laws about constructing generating power plants for years. They then pass a "deregulation" law that forces their power companies to sell their own generating plants, and buy power on the open market, while selling to the consumer at a fixed (below market) price.
Despite the "deregulation" misnomer, I don't think you can blame Captitalism for this one.
" Are the problems in California with electricity a failure of the free market system, government planning or am I missing other possiblities. "
You have no question mark at the end of your phrase, so you may already know the answer - or it could be just a rhetorical question. Of course, none of the above can stop me from chiming in!
My opinion is that it is not a failure of either - yet. The failure has not reached critical mass (emergency status doesn't qualify). Free market aficionados can call it "market adjustment", implying that the market will soon face up to the suply/demand situation through its own machinations. State planning acolytes can call situations such as this, if they are of their own making, a "childhood illness" and await more data before proposing the next planning step - obviously, the pain of not having electricity has never been important enough to warrant radical rethinking from the planners. But it's the same, if not worse, with the free marketeers, who actually enjoy the pains and shocks and vibrations of the market's "inner workings" (Reads like a copulation manual sometimes, doesn't it?)
The bottom line is that deregulation of the system chronologically preceded the current 'uncomfortable' situation. So the Statists have every right to denounce this as a free market failure...
See you around.
I agree. I vote for log in!
vince
why do you agree with Fossilman, or we are going to send you to Russia with him.
"why do you agree with Fossilman"
Honestly, I don't. I am not in favor of logging in becuase I'm a lazy bum and don't need no more things to figure out than I already got. What I am opposed to is cowardly acts by the anonymous. I am also opposed to cowardly acts by the known but for different reasons. As much as I find Badger's and Carson's posts objectionable I will give them lot's and lots of credit because they say what they think and are not afraid to stand up and let everyone know who they are. I don't believe mud slinging by someone anonymous is anything more than a cowardly act on their part.
I do however understand and in some cases agree with anonymity by readers and posters of this or any other forum. Some of the poster's on this forum I very much respect and read and heed some of thier posts and I have no idea what thier true identity is nor am I in need of knowing. Suburban Poker Man is a prime example. I have not seen him attack anyone in a negative or mean spirited way without provocation, except for me, and then if he does is usually a gentleman in his own way.
Why I said I agrred with Fossilman is because I believe he is correct in principle. Cowards should not be allowed to hide behind anonymity.
Vince
a cowardly act by an anonymous in this forum. Show me mud slinging in this forum, if you have the time. I feel being attacked by Fossilman, but you don't. That is the difference between you and me. I am the ignorant one. Cyrus you failed once again.
What gives you the right to call Fossilman and Ray Zee idiots? Who are you? Your just another coward hiding behind the cover of anonymity.
vince
What gives me the right: Freedom of expression my friend. I am not insulting you by calling you an idiot, Who are you? or who is Ray Zee?, you are nobodies. Ray Zee has show me in this forum to be a *no class* guy. So what? Who cares? We are talking about controlling this forum for a few idiots like yourself that are afraid to say that it is wrong to have a login of any kind. You must learn to function in this society with everyone, ignorants, idiots, etc. But don't call a person a coward just because that person does not agree with you. Why are you making rules for anonymity, if I send you a million dollars, anonymous, would you take it and spend it? Look yourself in the mirror and tell me what you see.
"What gives me the right: Freedom of expression my friend."
Freedom of expression gives you the right to say what you think. It doesnt give you the right to say it here on this forum. This forum is moderated and everyone who posts here can read the terms and conditions on the left margin. People who have something of value to say usually dont mind putting their name on the by-line. I know you dont care, but most people will read the attributed posts by Vince and Fossilman and ignore the posts by anonymous people.
Randy Collack
"What gives me the right: "
Good question. But I asked first. Besides maybe you didn't read my response correctly. I used "What gives you the right" to emphasize the fact that you are a COWARD. (for facelessly and namelessly making negative remarks about these fellows) Since you didn't address that part of my post I guess you must feel... exposed. You seem to me to be akin to the neighborhood voyeur that is ashamed of himself and his behavior so he does it under the cover of darkness.
vince
Dear Braveheart,
So those of us who choose not to post our e-mail addresses are cawards, and those of you who do are just plain valiant, well congratulations.
The thing is, I just don't want some hyper-emotional mental patient like yourself taking offence at something I write, and then start e-mailing me at my residence 50 or 60 times, no thank you. If you have something to say to any of us raging cowards, you can do it right here, thank you very much.
You are the man, Randy E. But do not expect an answer from anybody. The issue here was login. Instead of admiting that it is a bad idea, they chose to attack you for not agreeing with them and not showing you e-mail. Now, do you know of any better way of discribing a coward? I say to Mr FossilMan, Vince Lepore, Dr Wogga, Mason, and the others that you showing your e-mail doesn't make a difference to me. This is really an anonymous forum and must be rule by honor. Does anybody here know what that is? And please don't tell me you served in the Army, or that you are a policeman, or a teacher, or a priest, or a doctor, and that is why you know what honor is. Dr. Wogga can't express himself to this forum without insulting you with a racist remark. That is his nature, you must feel sorry for him. He told me that my mother is a negro, may be she was, I don't know. That makes me a bad person? Then I don't have the right to disagree with anybody. I am against login of any kind. Has any of you ever use a CB radio in your car. You should try it, if you want to hear cowards. If you start login, what is next? You want to know my income, my religion, where I live, social security #, nationality, sex, age, race, ? I feel the people that run this forum don't have the courage (I could use another word) to express this concepts that are paramount of the way we live, but are too much bussiness oriented. Lets not offend anybody. So imagine you have my e-mail, now I am not a coward anymore. Is that correct, Vince? Your idea of me will change automatically, because now you have my e-mail address. Do You think for a moment that I will be afraid to tell you what I think then. And then what would you do? expel me from the forum, or it will be Ray Zee doing it? And then I will be gone. I will read about your ideas and comments, but I will not be allowed to answer.Is that what you want? Dr Wogga is insulting me, and you and everybody in this forum stay quiet. So all of you are insulting me too, with your silence. The man is a racist but as long as he doesn't call you personally a name, then he must be an OK. guy. He gives his e-mail, so he must be an OK guy. Who is the coward here, Vince, FossilMan, Mason, Ray Zee, Cyrus???? I call people idiots, and I feel I am correct. I am an idiot too, I admit to that. No big deal. Your idea of login, in this time and age can only come from an idiot. Boris was called an idiot once, about another subject, and he gave the best answer yet, he said: *No, I'm not!* Now, that is a classy guy.
"Dr Wogga is insulting me, and you and everybody in this forum stay quiet"
I don't know what this clown Randy E posted because I don't read his posts. But I went back and looked at a post from this Dr. Wogga guy. I agree with you I did not appreciate his comments. I asked that his post be deleted. I will not open any posts from that clown until he apologizes for his remarks. That's my way of doing things. BTW - I will probably open your posts. Once you have established a record of posting here under the same handle for a significant period I consider you to be known regardless of e-mail or handle. I believe others on the forum feel the same way. None of us know who SPM and Poker Vetran and a few others are but they have participated for a long time under the same handle so they are accepted. It's anonymous butt heads that come up here and make disparaging remarks or those that post under another persons name that usually are attacked here on this forum. So stop your whining.
vince
for a few days, take care of things for me while I'm gone, and I'll try not to whine in the future and thank you again for going after Dr. Wogga.
Mostly it seems to be a problem on the Other Topics forum. The very nature of this forums lends itself to a certain level of bullshit. Your proposed solution would solve the problem but would definitely be at the expense of new posters joining the forum. I also don't know how expensive it would be for Chuck to institute a log-in procedure only if you wanted to post. At this point I'm not convinced the benefits are greater than the costs.
Let's try listing and comparing some of the pros and cons of a login vs. the current system:
Pros to login system: less BS = higher % of real material;, fewer time-wasting posts to scan or read; less flame posts (but there aren't really all that many now IMO); less posting under another's name (an occasional but not overwhelming problem)
Cons to Login System: some people may feel less free to express their real opinions; less posters; a minor inconvenience when logging in; less new blood attracted to posting in the forum.
Anyone please feel free to add to either list.
I personally find it fairly easy to scan and read only those posts which I feel might be interesting or have merit--and I don't mind the occasional off-the-wall posts as I feel they add a bit of color and humor. I find the noise/content ratio quite tolerable as long as the site isn't too slow (as it is on occasion--for me last night and today). Others may have less time for such or less patience with such things.
My vote would be to leave it as it is but I would not be strongly opposed to a login system--I just would miss some of the colorful posts we now have and would be slightly annoyed at having to bother with logging in each time.
Our feeling at this point in time is that we have kept the obnoxious posts to an acceptable minimum. No one at Two Plus Two likes them, but even with the tremendous growth of these forums their quality has been maintained. My advice is not to answer any posts which (any of) you feel are inappropriate. I will also be watching for really bad ones and will take appropriate action when necessary.
Mason
I do not answer those obnoxious posts and just blow by them. A login would not stop JO's from just loggin in under an assumed real name then posting the same old inflamatory sensless crap. I would vote for no log-in unless there were a way to determine who the real long-in is, and that is not practical.
I'm against logging in, too, for the same reasons. Besides, sometimes I like to post as Ratso Ripoff. (Isn't there a dollar sign in the original?)
John
q
sound like Mr Fossilman, like an idiot. What **obnoxious** post are you refering to? Please give me a few examples, if you have the time. Are you not outraged about this attack to freedom of expression? This is a game, don't take yourself so seriously. I am a buffoon and intend to stay this way, and ignorant too. Is that a problem for you?
Aye, Laddie, it's no problem at all. Revel in your buffoonery.
Cheers,
John
///////
Did you happen to notice that you responded directly to me after reading Ratso's post. C'mon, Laddie, if you can't follow the threads, stay out of the kitchen.
John
"Laddie"
Now how did you know he was a she? Of course the way you spelled she ain't no Lady.
Vince
n/t
i would love to play poker with you. You probably tight as a drum. P/S: Is your nose brown?
Vince,
"Laddie" as in "Irish." Not "Lady." But, then again, how do I know he is a he?
John
"But, then again, how do I know he is a he? "
Yeah, well how do you know he, if he is a he, is Irish?
vince
mistake. Don't go crazy now....
Please Mason, you are starting to sound like an idiot. What are you watching?, are we babys here or are we suppose to have something between our legs?. Fossilman is a crybaby, let him start his own forum, with people he likes and post to his conditions. I don't give my e-mail because I want my privacy, the same privacy I respect for everyone. What, you can't take a little humor? Let things be what they are. You have very smart people here. Very intelligent people and very educated people. I represent the ignorants. But you also have a few idiots, like Mr. Fossil Man and Ray Zee, and I have to take them just like you have to take me. And this is fair. And I don't like Boris either, and Dr. Wogga stinks, but I have to live with them. Can you do anything about that for me? I want to hear from Rounder and Cyrus about this proposal, and I hope they make Mr Fossil Man cry, like a baby.
PS: Mason, do you know that Fossilman is afraid to raise with pocket AA from the buton against a few limpers? He calls like the crybaby he is. Sent him to Russia, they can use him there.
Well, I challenge you to a game of heads-up NL HE, $1000 each, play until one of us (YOU) is broke.
There is no doubt that this will accurately determine which of us is smarter and correct about the present issue of debate.
The gauntlet is thrown, Mr. Ooh-I'm-so-scared-now-I'm- probably-shitting-in-my-pants.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
P.S. - Vince, how'd I do?
nt
"I challenge you to a game of heads-up NL HE, $1000 each, play until one of us (YOU) is broke. There is no doubt that this will accurately determine which of us is smarter and correct about the present issue of debate."
Does that mean that the no-limit hold'em champions are the smartest people in the world??
I kinda knew that all along but was afraid to say it. I mean, Stu Ungar, for crying out loud, pretty obvious innit?
"Well, I challenge you to a game of heads-up NL HE, $1000 each, play until one of us (YOU) is broke. "
"P.S. - Vince, how'd I do? "
Well, I guess, I'll have to say, before Zee does:"If you play him I'll put up the cash". Of course once a coward always a coward. You don't have much of a chance of him taking up the challenge.
vince
In my experience people that call other people cowards are usually the cowards. An idiot is a person *exhibiting mental deficiency in its most severe form and requiring constant care*. If I am called and idiot for something I said, I'll try to explain my point an a different way if I can, if I am wrong, I will said I am wrong. But I will never call that person a coward just because he calls me and idiot. When that person refuses to explain the point any futher, and calls me a coward, then proves to me once again that he is an idiot. I am sorry, that is the way it is. Now you take a person like Cyrus. he is not an idiot. You take a person like Ray Zee, he is not an idiot. They are something else. Dr Wogga is not an idiot, he is a racist.
How would I do against him at poker. I meant how did I do at being humorous? I admit, being a lawyer, I'm somewhat humor-impaired, but I thought this was a good satire of the many similar posts we've all seen in the past, where one of 2 vigorous debaters on the forum issues a "poker challenge" to settle the issue.
See you at Foxwoods.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
ha ha, Now that's a ballsy proposition! Ahhhhh ha ha
n/t
Your adolescent insecurity about your masculinity with these silly challenges grows tiresome.
No matter how over-the-top a post is, if it's meant to be sarcastic, nobody gets it unless you put a smiley face at the end.
I forgot the ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I got it as soon as you appealed to Vince as an authority. Well, actually, I got it before that. :-] not necessary.
John
I don't like to put a smiley face when I am being sarcastic -- it somehow ruins it for me. I don't care much for spoon-feeding my readers either unless I am trying to sell something. What your readers perceive (or don't perceive) in what you write, and how they then respond, is often quite illuminating-:)
Mark,
I have a "rule" for writing students: one exclamation per semester! Most reach their limit by the end of the first paper. Choose the right words and construct sentences carefully, I urge, and readers will understand. Same with smiley faces!!!!!
John
"You have very smart people here. Very intelligent people and very educated people. I want to hear from Rounder and Cyrus about this proposal."
...What was the question, again?
Randy Johnson threw the funniest pitch I've seen in years yesterday. I couldn't stop laughing and still am when the ball hit the Dove and the feathers went everywhere. Has Randy's ball turned up on Ebay yet. The "AntiBirdBall" $5k opening bid.
paul
It wouldn't bother me if we added a login procedure. I do think some people that would become good solid posters might not post if they needed to register and login.
One alternative is to do what pokerpages.com does with their forums. You don't have to put your email address but it does show some TCP/IP or network information about you. That might limit the negative posts.
Ken Poklitar
I don't really know the rules, and I am grateful for 2+2, it is a great forum. But I will fight to keep it this way, against those (idiots) that want to change it. And there is nothing that I say that offends anybody. There is a too much arrogance from some of the participants. I am talking about freedom of expression and this guy challenges me to a poker match. It blows my mind. I wish I could express myself the way some guys do here, like Cyrus, or Rounder, and others, but I can't, so I do the best I can. I don't stand on the sideline, like the silent majority.
I wouldn't mind the log-in procedure as long as my e-mail address doesn't have to appear anywhere for people to see. That's because about a year ago I was posting my e-mail address along with my messages here, and some absolute nut-case started sending me the most long-winded religious messages to my home on a regular bases warning me about the dangers of gambling(and whatever else popped into his deranged mind).
Y O U , T H A N K Y O U, Thank you!!!!!!! and Thank you again, and again, and again. Thank you, THANK YOUUUUUU, Thank you, Thank you, again and again and again and again and again and again.................................................................................
I didn't mean to imply in my original post that your real name and email had to appear on your posts. Just that you gave enough information when you registed so that 2+2 can do a quick verification. Clearly it would be easy to get around and make a fake ID, but it would require a little bit of effort to do so. Right now, all somebody has to do is type a different name in the "Your Name:" line, and they've anonymized themselves.
You could continue to post as Randy E, and none of us need ever know who you really are or how to contact you. But, every time I saw a post from Randy E, I would know that it almost certainly was really written by you. I would also know that any post not named Randy E was NOT written by you. As it is, there are numerous posts by people who change their name as an addendum to the "Subject:" line of their posts. It is a pain, as nobody knows what else, if anything, that poster has contributed. If everyone had to live up to every post they ever made, they would use a little better judgment and impose some self-restraint on what they said, IMO.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I agree with the above almost completely. Would it be OK to allow posters to have one other screen name for posts about hands or ideas they want to keep private?
Regards,
Rick
Yeah that would be great. Have one screen name for good poker talk yet have another handle for political discussion. Of course, there's always the off-color joke one might want to share without being called politically incorrect so we'll need another screen name for that. Of course, if your political discussions put you in the position of getting Hansoned (I think you take my meaning) then you'll definitely want yet another name so that you can participate in a diferent political discussion without the stalker you alienated from the first political discussion judging your argument on anything but merit.Of course, you'll always want to leave room for that situation where you answer as celebrity for lampooning purposes such as M has done so often as "Mr. President." Or maybe that was you, Rick. Of course it might just be easier to keep it the way it is. Put it ino perspective. Even in the poker world this is such a non-issue.
Greg wrote, "I would also know that any post not named Randy E was NOT written by you". Login procedures will not prevent people from having multiple identities.
My buddies and I just got our tickets for Vegas, arriving early morning May 18 and leaving early Monday May 21. Believe it or not, we scheduled around our work and school vacations, not the WSOP. But...as long as we are there I am curious how to get in to see the final table. Do you have to buy tickets? Wait in huge lines? Just walk in?
Also, what are people's predictions on how the action will be the weekend AFTER the tournament? Will the rooms be pretty full? How about the effect on the games? Softer than usual? Tougher? Wilder?
Just curious what people remember from past years.
Thanks,
KJS
KJS
My wife and I have been spectators at the past six big ones. I also was a spactator at the '87 big one as well.
It's free, but the final day is usually a circus, real crowded.
My favorite, was when Stu Ungar won it in '97. there was magic in the air that WSOP.
Even know it was great on tv, the '98 series was horrible to watch live. That was the year they put the final table in a small room with just press and close friends being allowed to view it live. Thank goodness they only did that format in ''98.
One of my favorite experiences as a WSOP spectator was in '99 when they were down to one table on the evening of day three You had Huck Seed, Erik Seidel,Noel Furlong, P. Parkinson (sp), as well as a few others. The place was not that crowded.They had to play until they were down to six. I stood on the rail two feet behind Erik Seidel. As a matter of fact, Mrs Seidel was standing right beside me.
Anyway, I stood there watching the heavyweights go at it for hours, before it got down to six handed, up close and personal. I was in hog heaven.
The next day the place was a zoo, but still great.
It gets more and more crowded every year, but I still think if you love poker, you can't help but love the WSOP!
Good Luck
Howard
KJS,
I watched it last year. They setup a big screen TV in the room with seats for spectators. Due to all the media equipment you could not get a seat to watch it directly, but they did an excellent job of filming it. They focused so clearly, you could see the sweat rolling down Chris Furgusons face. It was really exciting to watch it.
I'll be going this year myself, and hopefully, I'll be at that final table.
mah
x
a certifiable poker veteran informs me that the side action is best the week before and the week after the WSOP. during the tournament week there are quite a few decent and very strong players in town so the games can be tough.
I might be there myself the same week just to check things out. maybe if we run into each other we can burn some those Gideon bibles they leave in the hotel rooms...
oh shit, thunder.
Boris,
Drop me an email and we can compare schedules and maybe plan to play some tourneys together. And drink beer and talk about fishing.
KJS
Do the Navier-Stokes equations (equations that describe the flow of fluids) have solutions where fluid flows smoothly?
vince
Just wondering in light of a post on another forum at this site. I mean how many people consider themselves to be closed minded?
Probably the same number of people who consider themselves to be stupid, or a bad driver. Basically, none. And, for the record, I'm intelligent and I happen to be an excellent driver. =)
"I mean how many people consider themselves to be closed minded? "
If I say I am open minded does that in fact mean I am closed minded? I mean if I were opne minded wouldn't I have to accept the fact that my view may be close minded by saying I am open minded. Unless of course the truth be known. That is, that I'm brain dead. But isn't that closed minded, being brain dead and all. Gee, Tom you sure know how to confuse a single minded guy. I just wish I knew which minded I am, open or closed then I could come up with a gooed response and "open" it up for discussion. Instead it looks like I'll have to "close" without knowing. Gee whiz! Hey is it possible to be both?
vince
No! And I don't even want to think about it.
John
We probably need to define the terms better. This is somewhat like the arguement of human free-will. Philosophers still cannot agree on how much free-will we have or even if we have any at all.
The dictionary states open-mindedness this way. "Unprejudiced: free from prejudice and receptive to new ideas."
If we use this definition then all of us are somewhat closed-minded and somewhat open-minded. I guess we could try to scale it from 1 to 10. A 10 being someone who is totaly unprejudiced. A 1 being my grandfather.
Chris
Good answer. The point is that nobody is totally open minded or totally closed minded. It's like calling someone a liar. We all lie. So if someone posts that this forum is full of liars they're right. If they post that it's full of closed minded people they're right. If they post that this forum is full of open minded people they're right. They just haven't said anything meaningful. I find people who make these kinds of accusations are basically very conceited.
sss
basically i think any time people discuss nonverifiable things, there are basically two approaches people take.
1) in the first approach, the conclusion is already known and youre just trying to convince other(s) that your point of view is correct, and youll pretty much do anything to persuade them to that end. this is pretty much how all the college "humanities" courses are run, especially those which examine "women" / and or "minorities". of course history itself is a prime example of this.
2) in the second approach, the conclusion is unknown, but verifiable facts are put forward, and some type of tentative conclusion is reached which can account for it all. the easiest way to get sidetracked here is to disagree on verifiable facts, or to only allow "facts" which support your position.
what im trying to say is that for most people, persuasion and all of its bs has supplanted rational thought when it comes to pretty much any issue.
for example, when it comes to gun control, it can easily be shown (with FBI data) that there is an direct relationship between gun control and crime. more gun control equals more crime. its not up for debate; it can be shown numerous ways. But not only is this not mentioned, the reverse is actually said by those who would "persuade" you in the pure propaganda sense.
so basically i think that when it comes to having an open mind, its really about
1) asking what are the facts
2) asking what do these facts mean
brad
Show us the FBI data..idot. It does not exist.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/99cius.htm
in particular, http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius_99/w99tbl05.xls http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius_99/w99tbl06.xls
by the way, it was a harvard statistics professor who came to the irrefutable conclusion that gun ownership makes for a safer society. of course you never heard of him, see my original post.
brad
With the pending tax cuts, a lot of numbers are flying around, e.g.: "The top 5% of the population pays 60% of the taxes" and related factoids depending on the source. [I made that one up, but I've heard a dozen different versions like it] My question: If the top 5% of the population makes 60% of the money, any sane person would agree they SHOULD pay 60% of the taxes, but I never see these two numbers together (IE: The percentage of national INCOME made by the top 5% COMPARED with the percentage of taxes paid by the same group.) Anyone know where one might find a reliable source for that information?
Goog,
Try www.google.com (It's late but I can't resist).
Anyway, you wrote: "If the top 5% of the population makes 60% of the money, any sane person would agree they SHOULD pay 60% of the taxes, but I never see these two numbers together."
I don't have the energy to look the numbers so close to bedtime, but I guarantee that if the top 5% of the population make XX% of the money, they pay far more than XX% of the taxes due to the nature of marginal tax rates.
The calculation above excludes social security and Medicare taxes, which are repressive, not part of a trust fund, and an outrage when you consider most low to middle income folks pay more in this tax than in income tax. Note that I am including the "company match" in this assertion, since what is the difference between making $50,000 a year and paying the approximate $3500 (around 7%) for social security and Medicare versus making $53,500 and paying $7000.
IMO, if there were not the accounting fiction of the "company match" and to a lesser degree the "trust fund", the young of America would be the first to revolt against high taxes.
If the politicians had the least concern for truth, everyone's pay would be increased by the "company match" for social security and Medicare, and the full 13 to 14% would be deducted. Note that not a penny would actually change hands.
End of Dead Tired Rant and Regards,
Rick
"If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them,they will be happy."
"I guarantee that if the top 5% of the population make XX% of the money, they pay far more than XX% of the taxes due to the nature of marginal tax rates."
I don't think so!
Here's a link to the page of the U.S. Census Bureau website, which contains the data Goog's requesting. Browse around for some very interesting figures. And if you'd like some commentary with that, you could do a lot worse than read up on the Left Business Observer's Doug Henwood.
and inheritance should be outlawed. Too many coke snorting spoiled brats grow up to be President.
Cyrus,
I poked around the site and can't find the data you are referring to. BTW, I am also willing to concede that sales taxes are very regressive. A complete analysis needs to take social security/medicare, income (both federal and state), and sales taxes into account. A decent compromise would at least look at federal income taxes and the social security/medicare taxes (including company match) as one combined number relative to income.
Although conservative politically, I don't like to see the growing disparity between rich and lower middle class. But raising marginal rates on high income is not a solution, as it will turn tax avoidance into a major industry, which tends to slow economic growth, which was the case during the Carter years.
Good luck finding integrated data. I'll be watching, but have no time for the dirty work ;-).
Regards,
Rick
...why don't you just stick to equating slavery in the south with the holocaust?
why don't you go to......crispy cream and stuff your mouth so full that you can't talk. Everybody would be happy. Actually Slavery in the South accounted for over 60 million dead in 300 years. This far exceeds the travesty of the holocaust.
So Andrew, now that you've exposed yourself for being an anti-semite by hurling around insults and calling people names, riddle me this:
If slavery and the holocaust can be equated, show me the Jews who hung around the ole stalag after the war was over?
Is it not a fact that many slaves stayed with the plantation owners long after they'd been freed? Oh no, that overlooked fact throws a little monkey wrench into your hate. Logically then, the only people stupid enough to equate the slavery in the south with the German holocaust, would have to be anti-semites. Go join Cyrus's trolling anti-semite squad. You'll feel good about yourself.
300 million verses 6 million; In actual death toll, it isn't close. Probably in moral horror they are equivalent. Of course, for racist pigs like you...arguing is not prudent.
....what Jew could equate the horrors of Aushwitz with living on a plantation in the south. How come so many "freed" slaves decided to stay on? Truth is, not all slave owners were brutal killers and murderers as the Nazis were. You're insane to even remotely suggest it. Further, I'm no racist and I resent your stupidity in this matter. Cyrus, OTOH, is an anti-semite troll. He can be found on every website writing his dopey theories. Glad to see he has another whacky, knee-jerk follower.
Massa, you gwine send po ole me into dat big ole cruel world. No thanks, Massa, I gwine stay right here wid you on dis here big ole plantation.
How many times exactly have you seen Song of the South? Zip it, Do-Dah.
and I believe that you are probably a Palestinian, or some other Muslim anti-semite. 60 million Blacks were killed in 300 years of American slavery. That is a fact.
Not too many people know that! It's a fact that Dr Wogga thought all those white robes indicated ...doctors. He didn't mean to join the Klan. He found out about it too late.
Now, he enjoys the outdoors too much to leave.
i think when nelson rockefeller had to be confirmed by the senate for vp, he admitted that he and his family paid zero in personal income taxes.
not sure exactly what that means, but im sure it cant be good.
brad
Not sure about individuals, but my sense is that those with money figure out ways to keep most of it. There are plenty of tax shelters and off-shore accounts available to the wealthy that the regular Joe does not know about and probably cannot afford. Just is just my opinion and intuition. I bet others here to verify or deny these claims.
Corporations on the other hand, routinely and famously avoid federal taxes. If they had to pay up a fair share, the whole ballgame would be different.
For instance, the amount of federal taxes paid by PepsiCo in 1999: $0.
That's less than me and I a made only $21,000 that year. I am guessing Pepsi made a bit more than that.
KJS
A corporation is a shell. It is not a person, it is owned by people. Let all the profit pass through to the shareholders, and tax them. Why should the profit generated by a corporation be taxed twice, i.e., once when the corporation earns it, and then again when the remaining profit passes through to the shareholders? Even if many corporations are successful at avoiding taxes, wouldn't we rather that they spend less effort (and money) on tax avoidance, and more effort on generating profit, profit which will be taxed when it passes through to the shareholders?
It is amazing how many stupid, wasteful things corporations do, not because it's a good business decision per se, but because it is a good business decision when the tax benefits are considered.
Of course, none of this applies to taxes other than income taxes. Of course corporations should still pay their property taxes and the like. But, I believe they're not able to avoid those very successfully anyway.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Besides Greg's excellent points, there are many reasons to believe that economic growth would be much more robust without corporate taxes.
I never thought of it in that light. What a good idea.
Not only should the corporate tax be abolished, but almost all federal taxation should be done through a national sales taxes anyway (with exemptions for the most basic necessities such as food, clothing, shelter and medicine). The double taxation of corporate income tax falls into this category, as does the personal income tax and almost every other federal tax (especially the inheritance tax). Of course most tax loopholes should go out the window too.
If almost all tax revenue were raised through a national sales tax instead of through the potpourri of complicated and unwieldy taxes used at present, we would not only have a much more streamlined and efficient system, but the new structure would greatly encourage savings and investment which would financially strengthen the U.S.A. in the worlwide arena and create many new opportunities here at home. Average working people would have more of a chance to get ahead if they chose to because scrimping and saving would actually accomplish more. In addition, many new businesses would emerge and flourish, thereby providing greater opportunities.
Finally, the benefits of paring down an incredibly unwieldy and bloated system cannot be overlooked. Not to mention that with a far simpler system in place, compliance would be much more easily achieved and we wouldn't have to pay such huge amounts of money to support so many accountants, lawyers and bureaucrats who do nothing but specialize in such a system because it is so ridiculously complicated.
So M,
If I make 20K a year and spend all 20K on taxable goods and services in order to survive and has some nice stuff, I will pay taxes on 100% of my income (minus the exemptions you mention).
If you make 100K a year and spend say, 40K on taxable goods and put the rest in some kind of savings or invetsment because you don't need to spend it on goods for survival or luxury, you pay taxes on 40% of your income (minus the exemptions you mention).
That is the textbook definition of a regressive tax and would obviously burden the low income more than the high income.
Bad idea in my book.
KJS (who lives in a state with only sales tax and therefore pays taxes on more of his income than his wealthy neighbors like Bill Gates)
Some examples of necessities I listed, there are others as well. Most clothing would fall into this category too, for example.
If you earn 20K/yr., as in your example, and for one year forwent almost all non-necessary purchases, you would be able to save more money under the sales-tax-only sysytem than if you were taxed as you are today at your current income tax rate -- because under what I am describing, necessities would be completely sales-tax-exempt. Clearly if all you purchased during the year were necessities, the remainder of your income could go 100% into savings. This is not nearly the case under our current system, however. People who currently earn 20K today must pay a sizable chunk in income taxes whether they curtail or eliminate their discretionary purchases or not. Today's system makes it much harder for lower and middle income-earners to get ahead. In fact today many lower/middle income-earners find it virtually impossible to save substantially, and would be up the creek if they were out of work for 1-6 months or had to buy a car for cash instead of credit. If they could bite the bullet for a year by elimating frivolous purchases and save the difference, maybe so many people wouldn't end up homeless. In addition, homeless people who do finally get a job soon find that the tax withhheld from their paychecks makes it much harder to put away a few thousand dollars, get into an apartment and buy an old car.
Of course, those who consider many forms of recreational purchases to be necessities (things such as daily packs of cigarettes, booze, a better CD-player, a bigger TV, frequent dinners out, fancy watches and the like) could still end up having little or nothing left over under a sales-tax-only system depending on their spending habits. The point is that under the sales-tax-only-system-with-necessities-excepted, people would have much more of a choice and would not be forced to pay a large part of their limited income in taxes if they did not choose to.
So what's regressive about that?
M,
The math remains the same, regardless of your myriad of examples.
Saying to the lower income people "change your lifestyle in order to avoid a large percentage of your income being subject to taxes" while saying to the wealthy "a large percentage of your income will not be taxed because you have lots of extra money" is still fundamentally regressive. Under your proposal the rich can avoid taxation just by virtue of being rich. Under a progressive system based on income, the rich cannot easily avoid taxation and are asked to contribute more by virtue of having more to contribute. Your system is quite the opposite which equals more regressive and more unfair, IMO. The fact that a poor person could retain more savings is a nice feature, but the fact that they would still pay taxes on a larger percentage of their income remains as the fundamental issue. Tax tied to income is the best way to guarantee that those with more pay more. That's why liberal states like OR use such a system.
KJS
I agree that you do have some valid points---but to me, the most unfair system is one which plays a significant part in thwarting the efforts of people to improve their lots in life. If people are willing to scrimp and work hard they should be able to get ahead. Unfortunately the current system demands more than that in order to get ahead--it demands substantial earning power as well. Taxing the income of lower-income people is regressive in this sense, even if it is at a lower rate than those who earn more, since such a large percentage of their incomes must go for necessities anyway.
While the rich may be forced to pay a significant percentage of their income today under the graduated income tax, I surmise that on average they would still pay a roughly equivalent percentage of tax if there were a necessities-exempt-sales-tax...unless of course they too chose to scrimp and save. Not likely for most who frequent the country clubs and play golf, but if some did change their lifestyles, that money would still be invested somewhere--and would be thereby be producing something indirectly in the final analysis.
Taxing the fruits of labor discourages that labor, and taxing production discourages production.
All in all, I would rather see people having more choices and opportunities for self-determination than having "equality." I don't think the issue should really be who pays a greater percentage of their income: to me, the issue is how much self-determination can I and others achieve if we are willing to work and sacrifice for it.
x
Where do you get this leftist propagandist shit?
In the age of the internet, it is easy to verify when you hear something ridiculous like this. All public companies like Pepsico file their financials. Go to this web site for Pepsi's form 10k, which reports its results for 1999:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/77476/0000077476-00-000006.txt
Then go down to page 17, where you will see two lines under the heading "Provision for Income Taxes". You will see a line that says Reported- $1,606, and another that says Ongoing- $876. That is in MILLIONS of US clams.
I'll spare you the detailed accounting lesson about the differences between these two lines, which is quite complicated and adjusts for the expected timing of payments, loss carryforwards, etc. But that is the first clue that Pepsi did, indeed incur a tax liability based on it's results for 1999. Hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars worth.
Scroll down a little bit further to the "Supplemental Cash Flow Statement", section F-5 amd you will see a line "Income Taxes Paid- $515" Again, that is millions of dollars. This is the actual cash amount that Pepsi laid out during fiscal 1999, so they did defer some of their tax liability into the future. But any way you look at it, Pepsi "paid" at least $515 million in taxes in 1999.
I know you are a leftist, KJS, but I am disappointed in your intellectual dishonesty by spreading such a blatant lie to advance your point. Maybe you are just as lazy as the rest of the left and simply repeat the standard class warfare anti-corporate dogma without performing any critical analysis of your own.
Harper's Index, latest issue. They cite the source as "The Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy" in Washington. I am sure you can argue with them about it.
KJS
"When there is an income tax, the just man will pay more and the rich man less on the same income." Plato
So, last week I'm driving to Foxwoods, got the cruise control locked in at 70, listening to Electic Ladyland on the CD player. (The CD is a great fit: the CD length and the driving time are a perfect match.) Well, here's the problem. I pull off on to 184 and head up to Rt. 2. I can see it coming at the rotary, but I can't get there fast enough. There she is, her head safely tucked below the headrest, driving a shiny new Caddy El Dorado. Damn, she's ahead of me. For those of you that don't know, the speed limit on Rt. 2 ranges from 40-45. Of course, she, clinging, perhaps, to a firmly entrenched religious belief, idles along at 25. Then it kicks in--"All Along the Watchtower." I tell myself, "Don't tailgate." But my foot, now barely grazing the accelerator, screams, "Get in her trunk!" Rather than hang on her bumper, I abandon "All Along the Watchtower" for "Rainy Day," a much more sedate, calming song.
As I drive, I think about those songs that attack the subconscious, forcing us to kick out the cruise control and depress the accelerator pedal.
Here's a list, from bottom to top.
"Born to be Wild"--okay, a bit trite but effective nonetheless.
"Back in the U.S.S.R."
"Happy"--one of the best from The Rolling Stones best
"I Fought the Law"--Sex Pistols' version works, too: "I fought the law and I won."
For Ratso, third and fourth movements, Beethoven's 7th.
"All Along the Watchtower"--of course.
"I Wanna be Sedated"--The Ramones
"I Want You to Want Me"--A guilty pleasure, perhaps, but who doesn't love Cheap Trick?
Now, scroll down for the #1 choice, the best driving song of all time, and I expect little argument here:
"Radar Love"--Golden Earring (Say it isn't so.)
BTW,
If you're using public transportation, you might want to avoid "The Man Who Never Returned," the song about Charlie and the MTA.
I turn up "I Want You to Want Me" when I'm driving too. The #1 Cheap Trick song to drive to for me though is "Aint That a Shame".
When we were in Florida recently, we had the top down doing 120 mph blasting Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Call Me The Breeze" from the sound system. Does life get any better then that?!!
Good Luck
Howard
Who can can object to Radar Love?
I would add Another One Bites the Dust by Queen
John - There's nothing like a symphony finale to get your blood boiling. In my younger days, I blew speakers twice - once with the Firebird Suite finale and once with the highest soprano note in the Hallelujah Chorus.
Here are some of my recommendations (PS - Beethoven's 7th is also great).
Bach, Toccata and Fugue in D Minor
Handel, "Hallelujah Chorus" from The Messiah
Handel, selections from Water Music and Music for the Royal Fireworks (I forget the individual tracks' names)
Holst, "Mars, the Bringer of War" from The Planets (aka Darth Vader's theme from the first Star Wars)
Wagner, prelude to Die Miestersinger (this is one of those that you've heard somewhere but you don't know where)
Wagner, "Ride of the Valkyries" (I forget which opera)
3rd movement, Tchaikovsky's 6th Symphony (After this movement was the only time I ever heard a knowledgeable audience burst into applause between movements. They just couldn't stop themselves.)
2nd movement, Beethoven's 9th (if you're over 50, this was the "Huntley-Brinkley Report" theme)
4th movement, Beethoven's 9th
Mussorgsky, Pictures at an Exhibition, Ravel Orchestration of course, finale, "The Great Gate of Kiev"
Stravinsky, finale of the Firebird Suite
Also Sprach Zarathustra (who wrote that?) aka opening theme from 2001 (most people never hear this properly. There's a 32-Hz low LOW C that just kicks you in the gut if you have (a) an organ that can create it and (b) a stereo that can re-create it.)
And one non-classical:
Andrew Lloyd Weber, overture to The Phantom of the Opera (if you've never seen this musical, it starts with a bang - literally.)
Dick
Dick,
Richard Strauss. BTW, my speakers can handle that opening note; you're right, it must be heard.
John
Where's is the SPM? Did I miss something? Not only is he missing from this forum, I haven't seen him in the Chicago casinos for about 10 days.
You havn't looked hard enough. The SPM can be found on most weekdays at the Hollywood Casino, Aurora, IL. Where the fish eat the shark.
SPM,...play long and prosper
The title cruise control got me thinking about my future new car.
I’ve built me over $6000 in the past 7 years using my GM card and am going to cash it out for a new GM car. I’m leaning toward a Buick LaSabra as I want a car that fit 4 grown adults. I would go for the Caddy STS but even with $6000 off, I can’t go there (or the hell with insurance and big front end, is it worth it?). I’m going to keep the car forever. I’m to keep both my 73 VW bug and my wife’s car as the trade in is next to zero.
But my big question is what is everyone’s opinion on a sun roof? The one on my wife’s 79 Volvo is a problem such that we never even use it because it does shut right. The last time we had it worked on the guy said if we open it again, he wouldn’t even work on it. Factory or after market? Way back when it worked, it was nice to open it though.
Has anyone used the GM card credits to buy a car?
Thanks for any help or advice.
Scott
I thought they altered the program to max the max rebate $3,500.
I bought my Monte Carlo in 95, based on my best negotiation, then plus tax etc, minus 3,500. Sweet.
Unfortunately, GM, even being the largest car co. in the world does not make 1 sporty car. Sure, I could get a gold chain and a vette, or enroll back in high school and get the Camaro. Or whiten my hair, and get a caddy that zigs. Heavy sigh.
Unbelievable that they don't have a mustang, eclipse,etc....... even Hundai has a car in this category! Don't believe me? Check it out at their showroom.
They did alter the program and now $3.500 is the max. I was able to stay in the old program and retain the higher max.
When did you tell the sales people you had GM credits?
Your right, there isn't really a lot of cars to pick from. When I 1st got the card my play was to buy a pick up.
I did not disclose til the last minute; but your dealership won't care; it's GM that is getting screwed.
I'm tempted to lease their cheapest car for free just to screw em for not making a car anyone hip would want.
Jerks.
I always thought the Impala's were pretty classy. The new Monte Carlo SS is also pretty cool. kind of a gangster look but I'll bet its fast.
Drugs impair people's ability to be successful. I do not use drugs. Letting people use drugs helps me get ahead of those people using them.
So let people do all the stupid things they want to themselves, drink, use drugs, whatever. The less competition for me, the better. The same reason I would be upset if they stopped allowing alcohol at the poker table; if people want to do silly things that cause them to hurt themselves to my benefit, go for it!
Then again, most of those people are going to end up in the hospital on the taxpayer dime. Maybe its not such a great idea.
David
I believe in the next generation or two drug dealers will be considered in the same way we think of the people who ran the speakeasies and smuggled in booze in the 20’s. I’ve always heard that the tobacco companies have a plan in place to quickly bring pot to the market the minute it’s legal. When I read of drug busts and the number of people in jail for drug related crimes, I sort of laugh and think what a waste of time and my taxes. Talk about victimless crime
..Yea, grandpa made the family rich by beating the “Man” back in the 2000’s and going against a law that nobody really wanted anyway.
and the right wing paramilitaries in Columbia that run drugs through US intelligence circles will never permit it.
may have even stronger pull in the government. Just think of the money they would make growing weed instead of tobaccco.
It's all about MONEY!!!
paul
The truth is a total defense in tort law.
....tart law. But then you obviously are lacking any scruples
To JAWZ & Mason, MAN, you guys know your boxing!
George Chuvalo was never knocked down, an amazing feat considering that he was a heavyweight and fought during the era he did(Frazier & Foreman were the only ones to ever TKO him). P.S. what horror movie did Chuvalo appear in?
Hagler was 'knocked down' by Juan Roldan, but I believe that the WBC later officially ruled it a slip.
JAWZ, you're the first person I've asked who knew that LaMotta was knocked down during his career(at the end). The fighter's name was Danny Nardico.
I did not know that Bonavena was knocked down by Zora Folley; I did know that Ali was the only fighter to ever stop OB. Patterson ducking ZF doesn't surprise me, Patterson ducked a lot of fighters. I seem to recall that ZF was a fairly skilled boxer who was almost forty when he fought Ali in '67.
Bonavena dropped Frazier early in both their fights and never went down in either. Jerry Quarry also knocked Frazier down in their first fight before being stopped. I've heard that all three of those fights were wars; I wish the tapes were easily available(if they even still exist).
John Ruiz IMO is a tough, gritty brawler who has shown the ability to adapt and change strategy, but Holyfield is long down the pike. Ruiz wouldn't have been in the top twenty back btwn '67-'73.
"Jerry Quarry also knocked Frazier down in their first fight before being stopped."
I don't believe this is true. I recently watched most of this fight on ESPN-Classic and I don't remember any knockdowns. Quarry did hit him pretty good a few times.
Hmm, I've read in several places that Quarry knocked Frazier down during their first fight(I believe in the first round); doesn't mean that it's true, as boxing 'journalism' is notoriously inaccurate(for example, in the issue of "The Ring" that reported on the Foreman-Lyle fight, they said that Lyle was knocked down three times; also said that Ali-Norton III was a split decision, etc.).
Maybe I misread it; could've said "staggered", similar to how Bob Foster staggered Frazier, but did not drop him, in the first round of THEIR fight.
I'm not going to argue that I'm right, but I do know that you can occasionally see the films of some of these fights on ESPN Classic. It's a real treat when they come on.
Here's a trick question: How long did take Foster to knock out Quarry?
I'm not sure if they ever fought, but if they did I'd be positive that Quarry won.
Foster fought Quarry, but it was Mike Quarry, Jerry's brother. Mike went down in the first round.
"I seem to recall that ZF was a fairly skilled boxer who was almost forty when he fought Ali in '67."
My memory could be wrong here, but as a trivia point I believe Zora met his real match, his life coming to an untimely end, when he fell into an empty swimming pool in Phoenix.
I think many of the laws against drugs are absurd. I especially detest denying pot to people who need it during chemo therapy. My wife would have never gotten through it without it.
: Re: Failure of Free Markets or Government Planning
Ok Tom, You asked for more detail so I thought I'd better not pollute cyberspace with any more misinformation. instead of relying on articles I had read in newspapers and my econ education, I actually did a little research of my own to try and discover how the california power exhcange used to work. it's of course defunct now. As is often the case, certainty is the result of ignorance and now I'm more confused than when I started.
it does appear that there was at least an attempt at forming a long term futures market for electricity delivery. I don't think it ever really got off the ground. I don't know if the reason for this was due to an imperfection in the market as instituted by CalEx or the result of the ephemeral nature of electricity. I doubt the latter as even though electricity storage is extremely expensive, output capacity is quickly and easily adjusted.
The other quirk in the system refers to what I derided as marginal cost pricing. At CalEx there were certain electricity generators that were given preferred status (the green generators). It was required that all of the green electricity be purchased before any of the bad electricity was purchased. The green electricity had to be purchased at cost. I was never able to determine the market clearing mechanism for the bad electricity after all the green electricity had been purchased and demand had not yet reached the green electricity price. From what I could tell the minimum market clearing price is price price of green electricity. This just seems incredibly inefficient. If I knew how to draw those little demand and supply curves it might make more sense. I don't want to bring back any bad memories for you though. most people can't stand economics. The other thing I have yet to determine are the restrictions on power distributors passing on costs to consumers.
In my younger and more foolish days, I inspired some ire on these pages with some (i still think funny) jokes about Rounder, Michael7, and some others with soviet/maoist sounding names. Anyway, during an email correspondence with Mr. Feeney, he told me that there is something about internet communication that inspires debators to avoid middle ground in a curious and unique way.
Take the recent, massively erudite discussion on these pages about slave reparations (which I confess I only read in fits and starts, pausing mostly at my friend john cole's comments). The debate turns on several crucial criteria of outlook, a point that could become eminently clear to any two participants in the discussion had they engaged one on one. Forum discussion seems to mute consensus, promote 'gotcha' tactics, and inspire mean spiritedness. So, I propose this: the name of the other topics forum should be changed to 'fun topics'. there can be riddles, jokes, and descriptions of fun events people have gone to (circuses, carnivals, rodeos, etc.)
just a thought
a.
ps. my associates, the artists formerly known as the young turks are all fine. you've heard recently from scott, the rest are studying hard and wooing beautiful women. My reappearance might convince them to pop back out, but even if it doesn't -- know that they keep you all in their hearts and minds.
Hey Alex. Welcome back to the hot spot in this little corner of the net. Okay, first riddle. Anyone can guess. Who don't need no thought control, but now don't need no comb either? (Think billiard ball.)
Hi Alex,
I always thought your jokes were funny. Okay, I went to a rodeo once, a small time affair in Benton, Pa. Let me tell you, rodeo's stink. Sit in the hot sun, watching pathetic attempts at performing those neat rodeo stunts you see executed flawlessly on television for a few hours, and you'll say anything's better than this--anything. However, there's one benefit that can be derived from attending a rodeo. A friend and his wife went to the NASCAR race in New Hampshire last year. His comment: "John, there were ninety thousand people there, and we were by far the best looking. And we ain't so hot." Go to a rodeo. I don't care what you look like, you'll be the best looking person there. By far.
John
I can tell you fancy, I can tell you plain.
You give up something for everythinhg you gain.
Since every pleasure has an edge of pain.
Pay for your ticket and don't complain!
Bob Dylan
"When the doors of perception are cleansed, things will appear as they truly are, infinitive"
William Blake
freedom's just another word ...
for..
nothing left to lose....kris k sung by janis j.
Watch your thoughts; they become your words.
Watch your words; they become your actions.
Watch your actions; they become your habits.
Watch your habits; they become your character.
Watch your character for it wil become your destiny.
A Comparison of Nerds and Hippies
Nerds carry calculators; Hippies borrow them
Nerds use nasal spray: Hippies use cocaine
Nerds do wrong things well:
Hippies do the right things poorly.
Nerds know 48 ways to make love, but don’t know any women
Hippies know women
Killing Yourself
You drum your fingers on the bureau top, and then you draw out the revolver and gaze at it.
You put the barrel into your mouth, close your lips on it - and take a bite.
The chocolate breaks off and melts on your tongue.
The Swiss guns are better than the Dutch.
But you know shouldn't eat them.
You're a diabetic.
"Better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt"--Lincoln
"The world will little remember what was said here today"--Lincoln, from The Gettysburg Address. Boy, was he wrong.
"Include me out"--S. Goldwyn
"God must love plain people, for He has created so many"
Abe Lincoln
The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation.
Thoreau
Why do you think that use would increase with decriminialization? I don't think it will at all. The fact that drugs are illegal does not deter people from taking them. I think what could happen is that there would be a false perseption of use increase. for example, the pot smoking lawyer may emphatically deny that s/he smokes, but once it's legal s/he may say, "this is my first time."
There is absolutely no doubt that drug use would increase if only temporarily with legalization. Studies done in the 1970's clearly showed that more people would try certain drugs if (1) it were easily available (2) there were no criminal penalties or criminal stigma. The issue now is even more certain. Some people who have to produce urine specimens because of their jobs are deterred. Believe me, I know that is a fact.
Remember, I am a proponent of legal drug use by responsible individuals underthe right circumstances. I would not want my kid's school bus driver toking up Monday morning, but if he/she wants a hit on a Saturday night at the concert, and there is a non-using driver analgous to "designated driver", then I have no objection.
I know I am not going to try anything if it is illegal, but remove the crime and I suspect I would give it a go.
Thanks ratso - I hope you did not take my comments to be uh uh ***something***- I was just curious about why you thought that way. This topic is such an interesting one, and I like hearing the dialogue surrounding it.
Never thought of the urine tests. Great point. I agree that is a deterrent. And a violation of civil rights, IMO.
I agree with you completely about the bus driver example. I think the fundamental problem is with the general public's inability to understand the critical difference between use and abuse, with reference to illegal drugs.
Thanks again for your thoughts. Tim
I have had this discussion with a group of pharmacologists, psych professinals and cops. For the most part, we agree. Any idea how many cops have been shot because of drugs?
Let the people smoke it, drink it, snort it or shoot it, just do it responsibly and away from me.
I will not piss in a bottle for a drug test. I find it is definitely a violation of the self-incrimination amendment (5th)
Ratso,
When I got the job I have now, I had to undergo a drug "test." I was handed a form to sign which asked if I used drugs. Of course, I checked off that I didn't. (Really, I don't.) I asked the personnel officer if anyone had ever checked off the other box. She smiled and said, "Haven't had one yet." Now that's a drug test.
John
BTW, I once taught a class comprised of guards from the local prison. They estimated 80-85% of the population where incarcerated as the direct result of drugs.
Funny, I know some guards at the local prison. I estimate about half of them enjoy (?) some form of illegal drug on occasion.
I disagree. Lots of people avoid breaking any laws because they do not want to risk being caught. With that risk removed, I think many people would try drugs that haven't yet. I know plenty of people that would surely go back to doing drugs or try them for the first time if they were readily available and legal. Right now though, those people just don't know where to get any and won't risk using dealers they don't know. I don't think that type situation is that unique. Some people certainly avoid drugs because they are illegal.
KJS
"For the first time a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead in the future!" -- Adolf Hitler
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." -- George Washington
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." -- George Washington
"There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about." --John von Neumann
"The only two things that are infinite in size are the universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not completely sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein
"A man who is a genius and doesn't know it probably isn't." -- Stanislaw Lec
"What are the roots that clutch, what branches grow Out of this stony rubbish? Son of man, You cannot say, or guess, for you know only A heap of broken images, where the sun beats, And the dead tree gives no shelter, the cricket no relief, And the dry stone no sound of water. Only There is shadow under this red rock, (Come in under the shadow of this red rock), And I will show you something different from either Your shadow at morning striding behind you Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you; I will show you fear in a handful of dust. " (TS Eliot "The Waste Land" 1922.)
Life is just one damn thing after another.
-Frank Wood O'Malley
KJS-
Please refer to my post titled "Another Blatant Falsehood" in the Rich Taxes thread below.
You have been misinformed. Pepsico paid over $500 million dollars in cash taxes in 1999 and incurred an accounting libility much greater than that.
It took me five minutes to check. You would have more credibity here if you also checked your facts before espousing the party dogma.
What percentage of gross sales was this? I don't think that your thoughts are clear at all. You dispaly a tendency to quote outside of context perhaps?
Michael,
If you go to http://www.ctj.org/itep/corp00pr.htm there are links to the study put out by the Institute for Taxation and Economic Policy from which the Harper's Index line was taken.
Here are some quotes. Feel free to read the whole thing to see why yours and their numbers disagree.
"ITEP's new report examines the U.S. profits and federal income taxes of 250 of the nation's largest and most profitable corporations over the 1996-98 period. Although big corporations ostensibly are supposed to pay 35 percent of their profits in taxes, the 250 companies in ITEP's survey paid only 20.1 percent in 1998. That was down from 22.9 percent in 1996, and far below the 26.5 percent that a similar group of large companies paid back in 1988, soon after passage of the loophole-closing 1986 Tax Reform Act."
"In 1998, twenty-four corporations got tax rebates. These 24 companies--almost one out of ten of the companies in the study--reported U.S. profits before taxes in 1998 of $12.0 billion, yet received tax rebates totaling $1.3 billion. The list of big-name companies getting tax rebates in 1998 included, among others, Texaco, Chevron, CSX, Pepsico, Pfizer, J.P. Morgan, Goodyear, Enron, General Motors, Phillips Petroleum and Northrop Grumman".
Maybe I misstated the year and should have mentioned this more grevious tax avoidance in my original post. Would have been much better leftist propaganda. Oh well.
Here is a note on their methodology:
"The primary source for federal income taxes currently payable was the companies’ income tax notes to their financial statements. We also subtracted tax breaks that the companies received but which were not reported in their tax notes. Almost all of these tax subtractions reflected tax benefits from stock options, which generate tax deductions, but do not reduce reported book profits. Specifically, when employees exercise stock options, companies can deduct the difference between the market value of the stock and the exercise price (times the number of shares exercised).
The tax savings from these deductions are generally not reflected in the companies’ tax statements in their annual reports, but are instead treated as additions to stock-holders’ equity. In many cases, companies disclose the tax benefits from stock options directly. In other cases, we had to calculate the benefits by multiplying the difference between the market value of the stock and the exercise price times the number of options exercised times the 35 percent federal tax rate. All of the non-trivial tax benefits from stock options that we found are reported in the company-by-company notes.
A “negative” effective tax rate means that a company enjoyed a tax rebate, usually obtained by carrying back excess tax deductions and/or credits to an earlier year and receiving a tax refund check from the U.S. Treasury Department."
The full 64 page report can be found at
a href=http://www.ctj.org/itep/corp00an.pdf
KJS
Friends going to Italy for 6 mos. They are taking a Sony laptop and would like to get an ISP who is available in Italy. Anyone with experienced with ISP in Europe specifically Italy?
go to: WWW.RIPE.NET select: WHOIS search: ITALY ....... your looking at a list of ISP's based in Italy.
He's the only Western leader that says it doesn't exist. Of course members of his own party, and the Democrats believe it exists. Could it be his campaign contributors are guilty of causing the problem? No...Bush doesn't take bribes like Bill clinton. He's restored "honor" to the Whitehouse. Its called the emperor wears no clothes.
My hope is that at some point a decision is made using the best available data and politics is kept out of it.
Good science coupled with some sort of value decision. Obviously man impacts the earth and some negegative consequences are a given.
I hope Bush's actions spark some meaningful debate.
n/t
Has anyone ever done a real analysis on whether Global Warming is a bad thing?
I have to believe San Francisco residents are pro warming, provided they don't get flooded out of their homes suddenly.
It is dubious that the current "war on drugs" can be won (and more illegal drugs than ever have been recently entering the USA despite our efforts). Market forces are too strong, and the illicit rewards for providers are too high--due to the illegality and risks involved--and there will always be people willing to take such risks for high financial reward.
The worldwide undergound drug economy is HUGE -- one of the largest, if not the largest, economies in the world -- and it may be time for the U.S. to rethink its approach to what appears to be an unwinnable war. Perhaps decriminalization and/or legalization together with treatment centers and education could put a dent in our problems where brute force and international politics cannot seem to.
For anyone who would like to read a fascinating non-fiction account: The Underground Empire:Where Crime And Governments Embrace by James Mills (now out-of-print but worth having Amazon or your local bookstore do a search for) is both riveting and informative.
Since things are humming along so nicely on this forum, I thought I'd throw in another hornet's nest for debate.
In a thread about taxes below, KJS added a sig line about regressive taxes, and how because Washington State has no income tax, but instead only a sales tax, that he (KJS) pays state taxes on a higher fraction of his income than does Bill Gates (since Bill presumably spends a much smaller fraction of his income on buying taxable goods than does KJS).
My immediate thought, so what? Why should Bill have to pay more in taxes than KJS? Does Bill, himself, use the roads more? Does he require more from the State in terms of services? More generally, why should income be taxed progressively at all? Wouldn't it be more fair if people had to pay in accordance with their use of government services, rather than their income? I mean, at the Federal level, does it cost more for the Army to defend me than someone who earns more, or less, income? Forget about percentages of income, I mean just in terms of gross dollars, why should one person pay more or less than another, if they're both making the same use of (or at least have equal access to the same level of) government services?
What does everybody think?
I'll be away for a few days, so I expect to see at least 40 posts under this one when I get back. Don't disappoint me, y'all.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
A quick thought. The issue is not only whether or not Bill Gates should pay more, as you state above. More importantly, should he pay less (percentage wise) as he currently does in WA state.
I live in a 300 sq ft studio apartment, am single and have no children and no car. Do you think I use government resources less than the world's richest man? Certainly he drives more than me, flies more than me, is the subject of more FBI investigations than me, his kids get education money, his staff gets unemployment protection, etc, etc.. (I am mixing federal and state here). It seems undebatable to me that people with more property and dependents use government services more.
Of course, I am a leftist and like progressive taxes simply because I believe that those with more should contribute more. I am only responding to the "fairness" system you proposed.
KJS
Good points KJS!
KJS - You rejected the sales tax method as regressive down below, but I don't think you read the caveats closely enough in that post. Let me propose a few specifics and see if it makes a national sales tax more fair: No sales tax on food or medicine. No sales tax on the first $20,000 on any new car. No sales tax on the first $100,000 of any house. Sales tax on most everything else. This would fix your problem of you paying tax on ALL of your $20,000 while Bill Gates paid such a tiny percentage of his. (Then again, I have no idea how to calculate how close or far this would be from paying the nation's bills) You still against something like this?
Yes I would be against it and for the same reasons. The poor would still pay taxes on a larger % of their income, and that percentage would shrink as you moved up the income bracket. That is regressive.
KJS
"Do you think I use government resources less than the world's richest man?"
Yes, you do use less, but you also contribute far less to society as a whole than BG does. You've never created anything to improve society, nor to allow any member of society improve themselves. The old give 'em fish or give 'em a fishing pole debate.
"..his kids get education money,.." Huh? From whom? BG pays enormous property taxes, plus his kids go to private schools anyway.
".. his staff gets unemployment protection,.." Huh? Protection from what? Microsoft's employees work under an "at will"(?) agreement, meaning they can either quit or be terminated at anytime. If you meant unemployment insurance(in case of layoffs(not for cause)), in the private sector, it's THE BOSS who pays the UI benefits.
I knew I shouldn't have posted that in haste.
Most of the WA state budget goes towards education. Gates' kids might benefit from that. I have none and never will. That is all I meant.
You are right about Unemployment, but I believe both the state and federal government would kick in for retraining in the case of layoffs. To be honest, I was speaking of people who work for Bill personally, not Microsoft.
Lastly, I find my feelings a bit wounded to read from someone I have never met that "[I've] never created anything to improve society, nor to allow any member of society improve themselves". You don't know me from Adam and have no idea of my work history or personal history. I have a Master degree and have worked as both a university history teacher and an archivist for wealthy private companies and our Library of Congress. In all of these ventures I surely improved many lives (in teaching especially) and some organizatoins through my innovations. I am no Bill Gates to be sure. But I am an intelligent, accomplished, generous, loving person. That says a lot. If you looked past wealth and power you might realize that other values mean quite a bit in making the world a better place.
KJS
KJS,
If it helps at all, I, too, was offended when I read Bill's dismissal of your contributions to society without his having any knowledge of what you have or haven't done.
John
I thought that others might also pick up on that. Thanks for saying something.
KJS
BillM has hit on the key point here and dag nubbit he's correct. Good post Bill.
If taxes were levied based on usage of government services then rich people would still pay more. It's no coincidence that the Bill Gates, Larry Ellison's and Warren Buffet's of the world live and do business primarily in the US. A very large part of their success is due to the Institutions, property protections, and Infrastructure built by the US government. None of these are free and the rich very clearly benefit, even more more so than the poor or middle class if you measure benefit by net wealth.
I also don't think we should all pay the same amount in taxes because we all have equal access to government services. payment should be based on how much you use and benefit from the services. If I decide to drop out of the Silicon Valley rat race and hole up in secluded Montana cabin I should not have to pay as much taxes my current SUV driving neighbors.
Finally there is the issue of Fairness and the American dream of the little guy making the big time. doubling or tripling the tax rate of lower tier incomes would have a crippling effect on the ability of anyone to save up a little nest egg and start their own enterprise.
You have a point, Greg, but it's a limited one-- I think. For example, a cattle rancher who leases land for 4 cents an acre from the BLM IS, I think, getting more from the government than me or you. I don't know enough about the computer business to come up with an analagous example, although I'm sure they're out there. Take, for example, the federal program that provides subsidies to businesses for overseas advertising.
Greg,
Go to the other extreme. A person who make 15k or 20k per yr and needs to support a family or even just themselves, should they pay the same amount as someone who makes 50k or 200k? I think not.
From what I hear US taxes are MUCH lower than what us Canucks pay and still US citizens complain. And then they whine and moan and are baffled when they should up low on the Standard of Living lists, Education lists and so on. I'm not sure if Sweden is still #1 for Standard of Living but they have been in the past and look at their tax system. A guy who grosses 200k takes home a net salary which would not be too much higher than someone who makes 50k if my memory serves correctly. I think they can be taxed at like 80% of their income or something.
Greg,
We are over taxed. Approximately 50% of our earnings pay for taxes. This includes sales tax, gas tax, toll roads, etc. The government has a huge surplus of our tax money trying to figure out how to spend it for us.
I think the current proposal is to refund 25% to the taxpayers, 50% for social security (which means that it will probably be spent on something else), and 25% to medicare (I believe). The government is the biggest waster of money. Most of the programs they implement with our tax money provide hardly any benefit for us. I think it's been for the last three years that we have had a surplus. It's just sitting there waiting for them to waste it, when it could have been in our pockets with a fairer tax system.
Much of federal taxes are, in reality, a transfer payment. Yes there are important federal services(military, infratructure etc.), but stuff like food stamps and welfare, etc. take up a lot of your federal tax dollars. Whether you think that should be paid on a 'flat tax' basis or progressive is up to you.
Danny
2001 TOTYA,
"Playing winning online poker is the science, craft and art of mastering things most players don't even think about. Good luck.
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Does anyone remember when ?????? wanted to split up the forum so he wouldn't have to read about internet bs hands and that way he wouldn't have to go to that forum to read that junk. I would search the archives for this but as you all know the Terms & Conditions link on the left was a product of the ??????. To me it seems ironic that ?????? would put out a system or way to play internet games on Paradise Poker. I've already given ?????? more time then he deserves, but I'm sure you quote artists could come up with a few sayings as to this "turncoat" philosophy that was employed by ??????.
Yes ?????? and I had our diffences as anyone who doesn't agree with him 100%
ukw
Paul
I don't remember exactly what he said, but I do remember him saying it.
Anyway, no big deal, Everyone has the right to change their mind.
Good Luck
Howard
Yes, he said something like "internet poker isn't poker" but give him a break. He's entitled to change his mind. Besides, he finally found a ring game he can beat.
PS It only took me two days to figure out TOTYA, but I never would have made it without the hint in your post. Is it really necessary to make me think so hard to undrstand your message?
3B's is a bar in Billerica MA. He is a very knowledgeable player and I enjoyed his posts immensely, I just felt like babbling. 3b's
paul
The poker room in a very popular local casino is currently in a major slump. This is partly, if not primarily, due to a recently imposed ban on smoking. Since I dislike sitting near smokers I approve of this new policy but maybe not if it ruins our games. Another problem is that the casino is 30 and 60 miles from the two major metro areas in the region.
I've heard from the poker room staff that they are considering spreading a very low limit holdem game - .50-$1 to augment the 3-6, 4-8 and 10-20 now spread. Is this a good way to attract new players?
Attract them--maybe. Keep them comming back--probably not.
I've played in several 2-4 games where after about three hours I looked at everyones chips and asked myself "who's winning." The answer is often no one. I can only believe the rake is too high for the game ($4 max. and $1 for the jackpot.)
I have come to believe that in order for a game to be beatable, a certain percentage of the pots have to be significantly larger then the the point at which the maximum rake is taken ($40 in my game),or you have be a very successful bluffer.
I think in a .50-$1 more often then not literally no one would win.
How about working their asses off for shitty pay and no benefits. That way the rich can have buildings to work in, cars to drive, roads to drive them on, bank tellers to interact with, burgers to eat, crops to make into food, clean offices to work in.
I think maybe all "The Poor" should walk out of their jobs on the same day and let's see how the rich deal with all the extra "responsibility".
I vote for May 1, 2001.
KJS
"Better to live like a loser than be dead."
If "the rich" have more "responsibilities", i.e. should pay more taxes, what should "the poor" have to "contribute" towards "improving society"?
Very good question!
In my humble opinion, the poor should
- Stop whining.
- Stop asking for handouts. Jeez.
- Volunteer for backdrop to rich persons' entertainment (I find it soothing lunching at the Russian and knowing there're some poor suckers out begging for change)
- Learn some manners! Some people come over to beg and don't know how to address a gentleman properly, for christ's sakes.
- Get a good wash. No one should be allowed to have a free, open sky, healthy home in the streets unless they pass inspection.
- Work for free. The poor should move beyond crass materialistism.
- Work as speed bumpers. (For fee, see above.)
- Work as golf bags for rich golfers. I know of a man in Africa who used to run his "boys" alongside his cart, each "boy" holding a different iron. That was in the good old days of course but one has to admire the resourcefulness.
- Work as crash test dummies. (All those plastic dummies are, at the end, unreliable - and unrealistic.)
- Cease procreating; it'll help the financial averages some.
- Write an almanac. They'll never get rich but they may be Richard.
Here Here!
A.
Bill,
The former attitude toward the poor, infirmed, and destitute was expressed in the phrase "If not for the grace of God, there go I." The modern attitude is "Thank God I'm not that guy." At least we have the poor around to inspire prayer.
John
I have just read John Feeneys' “Inside the poker mind (Essays on holdem and general poker concepts)”. Before I get to the reasons that have made me put pen to paper I would first like to say that I enjoyed it very much. People say “write about what you know”. The majority of the text on good limit practice specifically the section on Tlit reflect the writings of a good professional player who has a Ph D in psychology. Again please don’t get the impression I am not endorsing the book (for what my endorsement is worth), it is excellent.
However after 246 informative pages I got to “miscellaneous topics” where Mr Feeney leaves his broad sphere of knowledge and seems to head off into the wilderness.
Concerning tournaments He suggests that tournament poker requires less skill when earlier in a hypothetical example a trained a “super computer” played limit poker without tilt successfully. Computers now beat people at chess (very recently the tide turned) and a program would most likely hold its own at a limit table. In a tournament it would struggle to get anywhere. This is without the tournament players using their significant reading skills.
To suggest tournament poker requires less skill or is bad for the game is just rubbish. Low limit tournaments introduce many players to casino poker, especially here in the UK. The WSOP etc keep poker high profile. The middle limit tournaments are real goal of many everyday players. If Mr Feeney is not very good at tournament poker (he is obviously an accomplished limit player may I repeat) then don’t play in them…and don’t write about them.I was hoping that in a section on tournament poker he would ply the reader with more brilliant insights in phycology there is huge scope for this especially in tournament poker.
Concerning “reward ratios” In a section entitled reward ratios he over simplifies a complex topic that has been worked on by the economics community for the last 75 years. The situation with the car buyer, the rock climber, and especially the private heath care decision do not boil down to the same simplistic nature as a straight flush draw. For real discussion on the topic refer to any university freshman economics text (Begg is good). Look at “cost benefit analysis” and “opportunity cost” If you read this John and are interested in further discussion my email is cardplayer@btinternet.com sorry to be so critical I am an economist and thought you might find this interesting, thanks again for a great read…just to be really clear on my overall impression…
GO AND BY THIS BOOK IT WILL HELP YOUR GAME.
I to have just completed John's book. I liked it, and felt he was inside my head. I believe we need more books like John's.
SPM,...play long and prosper, and John keep writing poker books...
you should post your specific disagreement with JF. probably on the General Forum. I'm sure JF and everyone else on the forum would appreciate the discussion.
"To suggest tournament poker requires less skill or is bad for the game is just rubbish."
I believe that tournaments require less skil. The reason for this, which I have stated on these forums many times, is that once you get past the early stages of a tournament, most hands are played with someone all -in fairly early. Thus there is no need for skillful play on the later streets. This makes all tournaments a weak form of no-limit where no more chips are in risk after the early rounds.
well, as for tournaments, let me just give you my experience. ive played in about 10 of them. once i got to the final table(the money) with not even enough to cover the big blind. i won like 8 of the next 20 hands (at least the small main pot) and ended up finishing 2nd. i really feel theres a lot more luck in tourneys than ring games.
as to the book, i think the proper analogy with health care, rock climbing, etc., is playing your hand in such a way as to go from 1/4 chance of winning to (1/4 + 1/16) chance of winning. now that extra 1/16 may not seem like much, but your odds go from 3:1 to *almost* 2:1 (2.2:1). an amazingly big difference.
(here i throw in some jargon)
i mean, say your initial bet (1/4 odds) is like a sunk cost, your going to put that money in anyway. so the only decision is whether to put in another bet which will make it 2.2:1 odds. well, thats the best i can do:)
brad
David - Thanks for your comments, and your civility. Regarding the tournament essay, in the part you refer to I thought I spoke more of tournaments emphasizing *different* skills more than less skill. I didn't really get into my opinion concerning relative amounts of skill. I did argue that, overall, they are bad for poker. That's certainly debatable, and I respect the opinion of those who disagree. But I qualified it with my opinion that very small and very big tournaments are probably good for poker.
Regarding the essay, "Risk (of Death) - Reward Ratios", I plead guilty to oversimplification. I fully admit I'm no economist. But, heck, it was only a four page snapshot, not an attempt to discuss cost benefit analysis from an economist's point of view. It was just looking, very briefly, at what poker strategy (not economics) might have to say about some extra-poker decisions. I take your point though. Thanks again.
There were 5 replies at the time of writing this Sat Morning GMT.
Boris... go and buy this great book and you will need less context I haven’t time at present to repeat what JF has had printed.
Brad and Mr Malmuth (sir) there is a lot more of everything in tournaments, luck included. In tournaments I greatly appreciate the ability to express ourselves with our chips in a much more articulate way. You use the example of a small tournament with quick blind increases to further your augment this is just one case. Brad if you were short stacked as you hit the final table and could only afford one blind...play in a tourney with longer more staggered blinds. Mr Mamuth (sir) it is my experience in rebuy tournaments that prior to the rebuys ending it is true you can find yourself having to commit your whole stack against the maniac and, as you point out, sit there during 4th and 5th street waiting for the poker fairy (I already understand by reading nearly all of your books that the poker fairy is a myth. Her demise was very upsetting at first J).
I would contrast by picking my own type of game to help my argument, in a low limit live game you can play your hands groups etc properly and get 3 or 4 callers to the river every hand. This becomes more like bingo than a skill game.
It is the structure that is a fault in both cases not that one game requires less skill. A well-structured tournament requires massive amounts of skill to win (and of course luck like any session at a cash table). There are so many extra factors in multi table tournaments. I believe that at that stage 10 mins after the rebuys have ended or at the start of a freeze out when things have settled down. There is so much more going on than in a cash game. We have to consider our cards, position and opponents, like a live game but also: Our current stack, individual opponents stacks, the “par” stack for the tourney at this stage, the prize breakdown and therefore the falling value of our say 1000 chips in real terms, the speed of blinds and how close we are to their next rise.
On our opponents we have to make our reads based on this extra info and it was at this stage I was hoping for Mr feeney to really come into his own as a psychology PhD. It is very different making it 3 bets to go, to putting a man to a decision for all his chips. We learn much more about the character of a player under a no limit structure. As I said before we can express ourselves better so, we also have more to listen to from our opponents by the way they express themselves with their chips.
Here in England there are very few opportunities to play a limit cash game just, tournament poker and pot limit live games (Live is the key word J). There is no opportunity to really apply the math and grind it out and under these circumstances we can still learn a lot from the two plus two series but playing the man moved up in importance under these circumstances. I want to be careful here to make it clear I am NOT suggesting it is necessarily more important just that it takes greater weight (playing the man) than in a flat or spread limit cash game.
Hence I bought a book entitled “inside the poker mind” and after a great read might I repeat again I got to the subject of tournaments. I thought that a PhD in Psychology would offer more advice on “centring oneself”. Up till that point the book, I felt, told us how to keep our heads while all about you are losing there’s in the stormy waters of live play. It even broke it down and told us reasons why we might lose our heads, a truly original and brilliant piece of writing. One thing you learned gentlemen surely cannot deny is that the waters of a tournament game are far more stormy and centring oneself becomes just as important but just more difficult requiring more skill at controlling oneself as well as a larger betting vocabulary and greater awareness of what is going on in the whole room. I was hoping JF would offer more pearls of wisdom on this front; instead he just dismissed tournament poker or at least offered no constructive info. I was so surprised I had to put finger to keyboard immediately Just so again I give the right impression to anyone who skims this entry.
GO AND BUY JOHN FEENEYS BOOK IT WILL HELP YOUR GAME.
Thanks, Dave
Dave:
Even though I feel there is more skill in side games than in tournaments, this doesn't mean that tournaments are without skill. Furthermore, the best tournament players are certainly very skilled at what they do.
I do have one qualm with what you write, It is the idea about structuring a tournament better. The problem with this is that at almost all tournaments the final table becomes too much of a shoot out, and to correct this the length of the tournament would need to be increased greatly. While some effort has been made in this area, it seems tough to do for many practical concerns.
The dead can know only 1 thing; that it was better to be alive
Joker in Full Metal Jacket at the mass grave of civilians murdered
Golfer friend: "I'm playing terrible, but at least I'm on the right side of the grass."
Where has the SPM been the last few weeks? That's easy he's been to two towns and a Valley. The SPM is on a quest to stay one step a head of the approaching statistical cleansing. It would appear the SPM is having an identity problem. Is he the Mayor of Any2card Town (A2CT), a rock from the Valley of Patience (VoP) or is he one of those rowdy Border Town (BT) emotional players ?
The SPM has had some incredible luck this year, an hourly rate that far surpasses his ability to play. With over 400 hours of play the SPM has only missed 21 days of poker all year. For a recreational player he spends a great deal of time at the hold'em tables around the Chicago land area.
This incredible luck is a wonderful companion at the hold'em tables. However, it carries with it this enormous desire to hold on to the lead and to increase it. How is this going to happen with a guy who travels around two Towns and a Valley? The answer is he better either stop traveling or stop playing. One of the two choices is not possible.
What usually happens, when the SPM sits down to play hold'em, he starts playing from the VoP. Then after numerous rounds of releasing into the muck every possible two card junk hand. The SPM sees a two card combination that has already been mucked several times but now it has become irresistible and must be played. What is that all about? Can someone explained this ridiculous card selection scenario.
The human equation in poker is the fly in the ointment. Full of emotions the human, is not a computer. A computer has no emotions to cloud it's decisions. The human is a biological computer that is full of emotions. Think about it, all you have to do is tilt you head the wrong way at the wrong time and the chemicals in your head will put you on tilt. Not a great place to be when your at the hold'em table. This biological computer called human is one tough customer when it comes to making decisions without emotions.
These emotional decisions are a disease that will make every two card combination playable. Without any rhyme or reason, the player wanting to play his best, now plays any two cards from any position. Sometimes a short walk with yourself and a silent tong lashing will get you back to the VoP. When it doesn't you better hope Lady Luck is around to save you from yourself. This has been the SPM's reality for the last three months. Thank you poker god for sending the SPM Lady Luck.
So as you can see the SPM has been kind of preoccupied with his hold'em results. Nothing seems funny and the pressure of maintaining the lead has taken all the creative juices from the SPM.
SPM,...staying close to Lady Luck, and hoping you play long and prosper...
hey, once again a thoughtfull contribution....but what about actually using the info/insight from feeney's book...i found myself realizing i had to give up some baggage if i was going to improve...still clinging to many faults however...gl play well(not necessarily winning short term)..and prosper...
.
They say the rich get richer, so is the answer the poor get poorer?
SPM,...looking for riches in all the wrong places...
bluffing. A quote from an x pro at Hollywood Casino, Billy M...
SPM...play long and prosper...
"It's always somethin'."
Roseanne Rosannedanna.
The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses. It is won behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the raod, long before I dance under those lights.
Muhammad Ali
I am going to visit in Hong Kong during next few weeks.
I am wondering if they play poker there (or in Macao) ?
Yours,
Nuutti
Responsibilities of "The Poor"?
Well, for one thing, the poor get the priveledge of dying the most when it's time to fight wars.
Look at the people who were drafted and sent to the front lines in most of America's wars, especially Vietnam.
Rich people's kids got college deferments and cushy Guard assignments. Poor people's kids got knee deep in rice paddys. Of course there were affluent and middle class people who died in our wars, but look at the numbers. It's not even close.
The poor also contribute by washing your clothes, doing your dishes, pruning your trees, and watching your kids. Who do you think is doing the dirty work on farms, in restaurants, poker room, hotels and factories in this country? Do you think that is easy work? It's hard. Are you going to do those jobs? I don't think so.
I'm not talking about those nice fat union jobs, either. The poor don't get those sweet gigs.
They spend most of the money they make for food, clothing, shelter, transportation, booze, cigarettes, ect. They help the economy by providing cheap labor and they pump almost every penny they have right back into the system. No trust funds here.
Wealth will never be equal, nor should it be. There is a HUGE disparity in income and distribution of wealth in this country. Taxes have not eliminated rich people nor is that the goal. Look at the explosion of wealth that occurred in the last 10 years. Yeah, the wealthy have it real tough.
Rich people are going to remain rich, poor people are going to remain poor. The fact that I pay a higher percentage of tax than someone who is low or middle income doesn't bother me at all.
I have much more to give, and I am able to enjoy my life much more because I don't have to work 2 jobs to pay the mortgage. Paying the bills has become almost a nuinsance for me rather than a financial crisis. I never worry about how to make ends meet, I worry about how much I can save.
High heating bills? Oh well, I guess I won't be moving up to 15/30 as early as I wanted. Poor freaking me.
I have a college degree. I have a challenging, well paying job. My company closes it's doors tomorrow and by Monday, I will have another well paying job. I won't rely on Social Security, I will have a nice nest egg when I retire. I have fantastic quality of life and peace of mind.
For all those things, I kick in more. That is after I take all my nice juicy deductions like 401k, Mortagage Interest, Health Care, ect. I got plenty left.
The poor do their share in this country. They always have. I would not trade places with them for anything.
Well, maybe not technically referred to as a blooper but...
"The scene where the assassin shot the assassin."
How did Obregon's assassin know the assassin Frankie Flowers was going to be in that parking lot waiting for Eduardo Ruiz? He had to know enough in advance to get that 3rd floor room overlooking the parking lot. Was there something I missed?
could you flesh out a bit more. i saw the movie a month or 2 ago. frankie flowers is the gay hit man in the parking lot hired by the wife to kill the testifier, but who was obregnon's assasin (and who was obregnon?)
brad
Yo momma is so short, you can see her feet in her driver's license picture.
Yo momma is so dumb, she sits on the TV and watches the couch.
Yo momma is so fat, when she hauls ass she has to make two trips.
Yo mamma is so fat she has little fat women orbiting around her.
Ray, could you please take a picture of them and post it on the web.
Thanks, Calvin.
i dont know how to post one on the web and it might be tough to get a good shot but i might try.
Seemed to me that if you knew where the target was you'd have a fair chance figuring where the assassin was. They knew the testifier was a target, so maybe they chose that room overlooking where his car was parked. Lo and behold, the man hired to kill him shows up in the same lot. Bingo. Just a theory. It was not explained in the film, as far as I remember.
KJS
"...you have a fair chance figuring where the assassin was."
Okay, how did Obregon and/or his assassin Tigrillo know Catherine Zeta-Jones had paid That-Particular-Assassin(Frankie, the assassin they just happened to want)to kill Ruiz? The F.B.I. had Catherine Zeta-Jones's house and phones bugged, and THEY didn't even know she had hired Frankie!
What really bothers me about taxes is I chose to not have children, therefore I am penalized to hell and back with taxes in every shape, form and ridiculous assumption. Why do people that can ill afford to have children need to keep getting tax breaks because they keep having them? Two children and after that people should be taxed additionally instead of given more tax breaks. The days of having 10 kids and hoping you can clothe them all is over. I don't mind paying for schools but damn, does one realize the pathetic education being doled out in the public school system?
There, I feel better now..I think.
the display today is because of some sun activiity happening i guess.
I notice that one of the cyclical "personality conflict" threads has errupted on the General Theory forum. Coincidence?
As long as we are on the subject, I thought that I would tell what I believe is an incredible boxing story.
After Mohammed Alli lost to Joe Fazier he went on a speaking tour of many colleges across the country. One of the places that he came to was Virgina Tech where I and a couple of thousand other students went to hear him speak.
After the speach, there was a question and answer session where someone asked him to demonstrate the Ali shuffle. Ali got into this. He took his coat and tie off, and started jumping around the stage. Finally he said that to do this properly he needed a person in front of him and requested the biggest guy in the audience.
So the center of the basketball team whose name was (I believe) Charlie Lipscom joined him on stage. Ali continued to jump around and then said to do this right you need to throw a punch. This Lipscom did and he hit Ali right in the mouth and cut his lip. The poor guy was so scared he started to run off the stage.
Ali thought it was quite funny, and he called him back where he autographed a picture for him with his own blood.
For those interested, this little story was written up in Sports Illustrated as the only time Ali got cut. You should be able to find it in one of the 1971 issues.
The Gambling Exchange
March 2001 Digest is provided by Two Plus Two Publishing and ConJelCo