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Hello and welcome!
This forum is a spin-off of the Gambling Theory and Strategy forum. Come here to read or post; trip reports, specific gambling venue information. Also, this should be a good place to find help when you are arranging your next gambling trip. Perhaps someone in Arizona would love to have a driving companion on their next trip to Las Vegas. Maybe you live in Atlantic City, right on the boardwalk, and have a spare room to rent by the day to wandering gamblers. Those are the types of posts we'd like to see appear on the EXCHANGE forum.
Thanks for your participation.
Jessica Vecchione
I go to southern California a few times a year and have played 15-30 HE at the Commerce. Besides the difference in the rake, what are the major differences in the two clubs, specifically in the HE games at the 10-20 through 30-60 level.
In my opinion the Hollywood Park Casino is one of the noisiest rooms I have ever played. Their loudspeaker system is so loud and shrill that it drove me away. Usually to the Commerce, Crystal Park, or Bicycle Club. Perhaps others feel differently. I would be interested in hearing if things have changed.
For Holdem at Commerce and Hollywood Park:
10-20: Stupendous at both, usually loose-passive-stupid.
15-30: Quite good at both, usually loose-aggressive-stupid.
20-40: Not many people agree with me, but I don't usually like the 20-40 at Hollywood Park. It's more variable at Commerce, but usually bad there too. It can be either tight or loose but is always aggressive in a smart way. In any case, all your opponents play 24 hours a day 7 days a week at this limit, and so they are not total fish, except occasionally a total fish swims up from the 15-30.
30-60: Not available at Hollywood Park. Usually an awful game at Commerce.
40-80: Quite good at Hollywood Park.
60-120: Not available at Hollywood Park. Avoid at Commerce for reasons that I cannot mention on this Forum.
75-150: Usually awful at Hollywood Park, with all the good former 40-80 players butting heads pointlessly up there, leaving the 40-80 game extra juicy. At Commerce it's 80-160 instead, and I have to assume it should be avoided for reasons that I cannot mention on this Forum.
300-600: I've never played it, but it looks quite excellent at times at Hollywood Park, with the LA Lakers coach or the Arabian prince. It only goes occasionally, however. And there is at least one player in that game who is a very mediocre pro player who has done some things that I cannot mention on this Forum so I suggest you avoid the game. Commerce has some mix 200-400 games, but I don't know much about them either.
For food, I slightly prefer Hollywood Park. For rake, Hollywood Park's rake is a dollar lower, but there are more games to choose from at Commerce and more games starting up which means free rake for the first hour, and this probably more than offsets the higher rake. For noise, Hollywood Park is very bad, but about as bad as the Mirage. For customer treatment, Hollywood Park wins hands down in my experience, but then I'm known as a 40-80 player at Hollywood Park, whereas I rarely play Commerce and when I do I usually stay at 20-40 or below, so that may be why I'm treated more personally at Hollywood Park. It does have certain benefits, such as being told of good games at other tables.
-Abdul
As an east coast player I am never disappointed by the holdem action in LA at Commerce and HP at the 10-20 to 20-40 levels. I can't play 6-12 even when waiting for a bigger table as it's as loose as 1-2 in Atlantic City. I can play a couple of levels higher when I'm in LA than in Conn. or AC. I don't know what it is. Maybe everyone in CA has more $. What about decent games at other LA cardrooms such as the Normandie, Huntington Pk, Crystal etc.? I've played a little at the Bike.
Also I read on RGP that the higher rakes recently at Commerce have affected player composition (smarter players boycotting the higher tariff playing elsewhere and dumber players who have no clue coming to the Commerce) Any validity to this?
While I haven't played at Hollywood Park, I tend to agree with your observations at the Commerce. In the bigger limit stud games, the "local" players are "loose-aggressive-stupid", but they also try to get by with a lot. In one particular pot, 3-handed, where two of us were obviously holding a minimum of 2 big pairs, I had a weaker opponent check-raise me off a set in order to push the pot to his buddy ("I missed"). Another time, I folded a hand in mid-stream and heard the player in seat 1 tell the dealer to show him my folded hand (incidentally, most of the crap I saw was from players seated next to the dealer). A lot of players are also marking cards with fingernails. It got so bad one night that the floorman came over and told the entire table, "this is the last setup that's going in for the next hour -- make it last" (I never had to call for a setup -- the other players seemed to be used to what was going on). Sometimes players would deliberately kill my action by showing other playes they couldn't win against their all-in hand (this even happened twice in a tournament). Finally, one of the oddest things I've ever seen happen: during a satellite, down to 3 players left, I bluffed an opponent out of a hand. A player, not in the game, walked past the table, picked up my face down cards and exposed them to the table!
I also noticed players taking cheap, petty shots at Commerce. It would never be tolerated at the Mirage. The regular players would go berserk, and the dealers would be more vigilant as well. I was wondering if this was common at Hollywood Park as well.
No.
>for reasons that I cannot mention on this Forum
Help me out here...what kind of things cannot be mentioned on this forum?
Pete
One of the goals of this forum and the Two Plus Two web page is to improve the poker industry from both a player and management point of view. There is no question that improvement needs to come for poker to continue to grow and be successful.
However, to do this, we need to address issues in a responsible and professional manner. If you look at some of the essays you will see that this is our approach. We believe that more harm than good is done when claims of rampant cheating and gross mismanagement are made without any specifics or justification. All this does is contribute to the adversarial relationship that frequently exists between players and management, and when this adversarial relationship develops, that particular cardroom is usually doomed.
There have been many posts, mostly on rec.gambling.poker, but a few on our forum which in our opinion are causing damage to the poker industry. We do not believe that cheating is wide spread as some have claimed, and even though we see many management errors, we do not believe that these errors are done deliberately. Those of us who are affiliated with this web page are first and foremost players. That is we have spent a lot of time at the tables, and if some of the wild claims were true we do not believe that we would have been successful, and there would not be any Two Plus Two Publishing.
On the other hand, if you were to play poker 25 years ago, especially at the higher stakes, you would have witnessed many problems. They would range from ridiculous player misbehavior, to cheating, to snatch games, and to horrendous management. Fortunately those days are over.
However, it is important that we remain forever vigilant in our effort to keep poker the great game that it is. I have noticed recently, that shot taking, particularly in the middle limit hold 'em games is on the rise, dealing quality is an industry wide problem, and of course many cardrooms are killing their games by overraking.
So in conclusion, you are free to address any issue that you wish to address. We just ask that you do it in a responsible and professional manner. In addition, just to set the record straight, I do not have the authority to censor anyone on this forum. We deliberately set up our page so that the "quality control" function was independent of the top management.
Mason writes : I have noticed recently, that shot taking, particularly in the middle limit hold 'em games is on the rise,...
Is 'shot taking' accusing a place of improper behaviour, or is there another meaning?
When I say shot taking I am talking about players who do unethical things that aren't necessarily cheating but still shouldn't be done. For example, buying a lot of chips and then placing them to the left of your cards so that players who act after you will think that you are not in the hand.
Horseshoe Poker Room Closing and New Management
As you all may know the Horseshoe in Las Vegas has a new owner. Jack Binion’s sister, Becky Behnen, acquired ownership of the Horseshoe as a result of a settlement in a lawsuit that she had against Jack. I just read on RGP that the Horseshoe poker room is closing on July 1. She has stated that she wants to keep the WSOP going. However, the Hall of Fame tournament has already been cancelled and I’m sure that the BARGE activities scheduled for the Horseshoe will have to be moved to another casino. I have a lot of questions that I wonder about.
1) How will closing this poker room affect poker in Las Vegas? The Mirage is really the only major poker room in Vegas now that has games $10-20 and up. I would have to say that if I was looking for a venue to make my living strictly playing poker, Vegas might not be my first choice. I heard the Bellagio is going to have a poker room.
2) Anybody care to speculate about the future of the WSOP? If the plans are to hold the WSOP at the Horseshoe I would say the future looks extremely bleak.
3) How will tournament poker be affected? If the WSOP falls by the wayside, I think tournament poker suffers a lot.
4) How will live games be affected? Perhaps live games will be better off in the long run without tournament poker.
Tom, I have already seen Horseshoe players in the Mirage on a regular basis. I would guess that the 10-20 through 20-40 players will come to the Mirage, and the lower limit players will go mainly to the Orleans. The last word on BARGE was that they would accommodate it this year. According to people here in Vegas, the HOF tournament was not doing well anyway, and was likely to be cancelled even without this sale. The word on Bellagio is that it will be a 31 table room, with lots more ROOM than the Mirage, and identical limits. Of course, there are different rumors circulating daily. This one is the most consistant. I believe live poker is alive and well in Vegas. (At my limits anyway.)
Jessica I dealt in atlantic city+playin Conn.often,I've never even been to Vegas! That being said I can,t beleive -the horseshoe closing poker -onlt a woman would do such a thing,what kind of marketing is this? Please talk to her women to women and let her know that poker at the Horseshoe if it did not make a dime is aHUGE MARKETING strategy+taking it out is like Mcdonalds loosing Ronald!Disney firing Mickey1 Mason without Malmouth! Does the Shoe have a E-mail adress? Did any one tell Dan Rooney of 60 minutes! Perhaps the Indians in Conn. will steal the world series or the TAJ!
Perhaps you should learn to spell and use singulars instead of plurals when referring to single persons before making sexist and moronic statements. The WSOP belongs at a casino with a bigger poker room or at least a decent amount of room to accomodate people. The Bellagio or Mirage would be better suited since it's on the Strip and that's where most people go anyways. If you want to promote something to the general public the Strip is where you have to go. The pros will go wherever the games are. The Horseshoe is a small, poorly ventilated poker room that is a great place to play only because of it's history. Times change. And if you are saying Becky Behnem is being silly just look at how the Horseshoe is doing financially under her brother. He is the one being sentimental about poker. As a business decision you can't argue with Becky with regards to downsizing the poker room and considering moving the WSOP.
At the moment, the poker room staff at Binion's is denying the rumor that the poker room is going to close on July 1.
The posting made to rec.gambling.poker was a rumor. It may be that the poker room closes soon, but the truth is that right now they don't know for sure what's going to happen and when.
I'd like to hear more about this lawsuit and what it was about....
Here's what I know about the lawsuit:
The Horseshoe Club was owned by a partnership. Jack had about 40%, Ted, Nancy Behnen and the other sister split the remainder (equally I think).
Jack was the general partner and called the shots. He saw the future of gambling in some other areas (e.g. LA, MS) and created a new entity, Horseshoe Gaming, to operate in those areas. As head of the Horseshoe Club partnership he licensed the Horseshoe name, logo, et cet to Horseshoe Gaming. The Horsehoe in Bossier City, LA is handsdown the most successful casino in LA.
Anyway, the problem (for Nancy Behnen anyway) is that Jack is the sole owner of Horsehoe Gaming. She doesn't have any of the action.
So, she sues Jack alleging financial mismanagement and breach of fiduciary duty because, she says, profits at the Horseshoe are down b/c he's spending all his time in LA and MS making money. She tries to have the Horseshoe Club placed in receivership (basically a foster parent for a company).
Nothing happened until Ted Binion lost his gaming license last year. When he lost it he could no longer own a part of a casino. I think the Gaming Control Board gave them a year to disolve the partnership. From that came the agreement in which Jack bought out Ted and the sisters and sold it all to Nancy Behnen.
I'd say it worked out pretty well for Jack. He's got the LA and MS Horseshoe's and a hefty mortgage on the original.
Regards,
Leigh Davis
Leigh,
For all interested the story regarding this settlement is at
http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/archives/1998/jun/12/507332800.html
-- Jack Binion will pay Ted Binion $7 million in cash and a $3.8 million promissory note in return for Ted Binion's 20 percent stake in the casino;
--Jack Binion will pay Michael $6.5 million in cash for her 18.5 percent stake;
--Jack Binion will in turn receive a $20 million promissory note from Behnen for transferring his 42 percent stake to Behnen, as well as the shares he purchases from Ted Binion and Michael;
--Michael will receive an additional $3.5 million payment from the $20 million note, meaning Jack Binion will ultimately receive $16.5 million from the note.
--The $20 million note will be paid over two years, the attorneys said. Behnen, who owns 18 percent of the casino now, will end up with nearly 100 percent. But Jack Binion and Michael will each continue to own small stakes in the company
-- equivalent to less than 1 percent each -- allowing them to continue to be licensed as owners.
--Behnen will pledge the Horseshoe Club and its parking garage as collateral on the $20 million note. In the event Behnen defaults on her payments to Jack Binion or Michael, they could take the casino back from Behnen. Because they will continue to hold small ownership stakes in the Horseshoe Club, they would not have to be re-licensed by gaming regulators.
--In addition to the notes, Jack Binion has agreed to purchase the Horseshoe Club's outstanding gambling debt markers for $5 million in cash. In her lawsuit against Jack Binion, Behnen alleged that Binion intentionally allowed gamblers interested in investing in his Gulf Coast properties to run up large debts at the Horseshoe Club that he never expected to collect.
If you look at this deal closely you will see that the Horseshoe was valued at approximately $54 million. Jack's stake in the Horseshoe is reported as 42 percent. Therefore his equity in the property is approximately $22.7 million. Now he is paying $10.8 million to Teddy and $10 million to Brenda. In addition to this he has purchased some outstanding markers at face value for $5 million. He is shelling out $25.8 million and receiving $20 million therefore his net on the deal is minus $5.8 million (I am assuming that he will collect nothing on the markers). He should have been ahead by $20.5 million (I am assuming that he would pay 42 percent of the $5 million marker). It looks to me like Jack took a $25.8 million dollar bath in this settlement. Hardly a good deal. In all fairness the Las Vegas Review Journal reported this settlement somewhat differently. I believe that this story in the Las Vegas Sun is more accurate however. I think the bottom line is that Becky had a good case.
Tom Haley
I thought that I would make a general comment about the Horseshoe Poker Room. There is no question that it has lost some of its business over the past couple of years. There are many reasons for this and some of them are fairly complex. But I do want to talk about the impact of the WSOP on the room.
Most of you who post on this forum only come to Las Vegas to visit, but suppose you are a regular Horseshoe player, what happens during the tournament. Well, you can't play during the day, the rake is raised, there are now waiting lists that can easily be several hours long, and when you do get in you frequently find your game only four or five handed because of the satelittes.
So what happens. You will go find yourself another poker room, and even though the HS poker room is very well run and they treat you great, you don't always come back.
There is no question that the WSOP is a great event and that it has done a lot for poker, but I also believe that it hurts the overall performance of the HS poker room. This may be one of the reasons that the new ownership has cancelled the Hall of Fame Tournament. If it is, then believe it or not, this cancellation may be good for poker in downtown Las Vegas.
Mason,
Interesting comments. I feel that a lot of the big tournament action is detrimental to money games in the poker room. I hope the cancellation of the Hall of Fame tourney does help the Horseshoe poker room because I think it is a well run room. It even gives the tourists like me a few more options when I go to Vegas.
I sure hope that room doesn't close and I think the new management at the Horseshoe deserves a chance before being condemned. I posted about the events surrounding the change on RGP a lot. It is clear to me that Becky Behnen had some legitimate gripes i.e. if what was reported in the papers was accurate.
There is one thing that I would like to get into a little bit regarding tournaments. To an outsider looking in the action doesn’t always look fair and above suspicion and ultimately I believe tarnishes the image of poker. The reasons I say this are:
1) With all of the deal making that goes on it is only natural that people will start complaining about and making charges about collusion. To be honest the possibility for this happening seems very likely for a lot of reasons.
2) The satellites from my understanding are basically cash transactions where accounting for wins and losses for tax purposes is pretty easy to avoid. Now I think the current tax system is very unfair and unmanageable. However I think this kind of action has a “foul odor” therefore hurts the image of poker. I realize that in money games that it is very easy to deal only in cash. Call me naïve but for a lot of reasons I believe that full time professionals that make a living playing poker will pay some taxes because it is in their best interests to do so.
Tom Haley
When I started playing back in the late 70s, the Horseshoe didn't even have a poker room. If I recall correctly, that room didn't come into existence until Binion's acquired the old Mint hotel.
The WSOP existed just fine back then without a full-time poker room and I suspect that may be Ms. Behnen's plans. Other than during the WSOP, poker downtown has always been more for the low-limit players, and I suspect that is what it will again revert to, if in fact the Horseshoe closes its room.
However, I believe there is a bigger demand for mid- to high-limit poker than is being met, what with the Dunes, the Sands, and the Aladdin disappearing. If big-limit poker is the heart of Vegas, it may indeed be dying (a tip of the hat also to Caesars and Hilton for their part), and California is where the action is headed. But I'm not ready to believe that all Vegas casino owners covet a cloying diet of 1-5 poker tables.
For those interested, the WSOP is not headed either to the Commerce in California, nor to the Horseshoe "South".
I am just curious. What are the various rakes in the different California casinos. I currently play the 3-6 and 6-12 games @ Hollywood Park and Crystal Park. I have never been to the Commerce or any of the other Southern Cal card rooms. In addition I will be moving to San Francisco in July and am curious about the rakes up there. Any info is greatly appreciated.
Thanks, JJ
The charges I give below are for Hold'em. The per-hand charge is generally higher for Omaha-8 or 7-stud. Time on the half-hour charges are generally independent of game type.
In the Bay area, most clubs charge $3/hand. The Bay 101 recently upped its drop to $3.50/hand. At Bay 101 and Garden City, the drop is a dead button charge. At Casino San Pablo and Artichoke Joe's and many of the smaller clubs, it's a live button charge.
Bay 101 (San Jose) - $3.50/hand, dead button charge, all limits
Garden City (San Jose) - $3/hand, dead button charge, all limits
Artichoke Joe's (San Bruno) - $2/hand live button charge for 2-4, $3/hand live button charge for 3-6, $4/hand live button charge for 6-12, $6/half-hour for 9-18 or 10-20, $7/half-hour for 15-30, $8/half-hour for 20-40, $9/half-hour for 30-60.
The Oaks (Emeryville) - $2.50/half-hour for 1-2, $3/half-hour for 2-4, $4/half-hour for 3-6, $5/half-hour for 6-12 and 9-18, $6/half-hour for 15-30, $8/half-hour for 30-60.
Casino San Pablo - $3 live button charge for 3-6 and 6-12, $5/half-hour for 9-18 or 10-20, $6/half-hour for 12-24 or 15-30, $7/half-hour for 20-40, $8/half-hour for 30-60, $10/half-hour for 60-120
Smaller clubs with jackpots often charge an extra $1 for the jackpot.
Maybe you could tell us the rakes at Hollywood Park and Crystal Park, too?
Hollywood Park $3 for 3-6 Crystal Park $3 for 3-6....but they only post one $3 blind and there is a jackpot for bad beats.
In Atlantic City, how are the 5-10 Omaha High/Low and 5-10 Stud High/Low games?
Also, are the 5-10 holdem and stud players better than the 2-4 and 1-5 players?
(Typical 2-4 holdem conditions: everyone calls the flop except you, players raise with random hands, even multiple preflop raises will not affect the field. Typical 1-5 stud conditions: everyone calls the bring-in except you, pots over $20 are rare, people fold to almost any raise.)
The 5-10 holdem players are much better than the 2-4 players in AC. Also, in my experience, not everyone calls the bring-in/to see the flop in 1-5/2-4.
You are right about everyone calling the bring-in on 1-5 stud, but I see big pots in these games. I find them profitable but frustrating, because you can raise $5 with an Ace up and one in the hole and there are always players you can't get out with a crow bar.
It's a winning game in the long run, but that pair of aces will get drawn out frequently when 3 players keep drawing and paying $5 a card.
Are you guys playing at the Taj or the Trop? What time/day of week? I'd like to get in on these 1-5 stud games.
Bally's and Trop have 1-5 games like described in the post. Bally's players are even worse than Trop players, and the games are generally looser at Bally's. Taj 1-5 players are marginally better.
On ESPN's web site www.espn.com they currently have there June listing of shows. I assume there July listing won't appear until July 1, then we'll know what time(s) it will be on. Since someone mentioned it will be broadcast on Sunday, July 12, we won't wake up at 9am Sunday to find that they showed it at 6 am.Unless they changed the time. I hope they will show it more than one time. We also have to pray that the TV guide we get is correct.
Copy of post to rec.gambling.poker.
Location:
Excellent. Right off a freeway. 3 miles from Sun Devil Stadium.
I live in the NW valley 30 miles away, but it still took less than 30 minutes to get there. If you're one of the 95% of Phoenicians who live closer still, it's more convenient.
Parking:
It's been a while since I've been at a poker-only room. It never occurred to me that you could park within 100 feet of the door. Well-lit, flatfoot-patrolled lot.
Room:
Room is a strong word for the edifice. It's currently a large tent, and the ambience reflects it. The sloping sides on either end and relatively low ceiling make for suboptimum ventilation. There were only 2 smokers (out of 9) in my game but I felt like I was getting blasted. More information and better seat selection may assuage this in the future.
They have wisely placed the tv's at the corners 6 feet high rather than the standard 37 feet in the air. This makes it much easier to glance at a ball game without needing and adjustment the next morning.
They have a bar with a piano player, good for cooling your heels after play or ditching a spouse for a bit.
They have a model of what the future casino will look like. ETC one year, probably depends on the drop. It will be huge.
Operations:
They have the room divided into three sections: Large area in the middle covering all games up to 6-12,
The ripoff ("maverick 21 ?!?") games on one end,
The 8 tables for red-chip and up games on the other.
Set off by 6-foot high sectionals.
As the latter are the only I play, I'll comment on only that.
- All the managers and floor people are very experienced and know how to run a room. They ran the board a la the Mirage with a dude and a clipboard taking care of everything.
- When they started a second 20-40 game, they designated it must move. Despite the fact that it was a hopping Saturday night and no one exited the main game FOR 7 HOURS, they never took the must-move off, which to my mind is a very good way to run things.
- No free hands, which is always a good idea at moderately serious stakes, the exception being on the must move which gets free hands on the first lap after displacement.
- They had red chips for $10-20 and $15-30, and brown $10 chips for $20-40 and $30-60. I don't think the brown chips in the $20-40 game is a good idea. For one, the pots look anemicker. For two, all the players have already been playing $20-40 in the valley for years and are used to betting in 4 and 8 chip increments. In one hand, from second position, I flop top set, turn the boat. Drunk utg bets the turn, trying to rope everyone in with their weak hands and draws, I just call 8 chips. Doh! I'd inadvertantly made it 80. Someone drops even before I can say, "Whoops, I mean to call," and the raise stands as I manage to eliminate everyone but the drunk who now thinks I'm Hollywooding and merely check-calls the river. Everyone knows me and knew I wasn't playing games, but I probably screwed my self out of 2 or 3 units. The third reason to not use the $10 chips is that players coming from other games invariably bring red chips with them and they make their way into the game anyway. Over the course of eight hours, I chipped up $900 in reds from pots I'd won and there were still plenty on the table.
- Only odd thing I saw in 8 hours: One hand a guy wins a pot that has 5 $1 chips in it. He asks the dealer, whatup with the ones? She says, "We're told occasionally to bring them into the game." I don't know if she was right, confused or lying, but it is of course a bad idea. There is no reason in a time charge game for chips to be moving between the pot and the dealer's personal tray and back. In 16 dealers, this only occurred once. Didn't get a chance to talk to the supervisor, but will mention it next time I spot him free.
Service:
Service was OK. It didn't really matter to me as there was a self-serve soda fountain right on the other side of the red-chip section that I could easily get a glass of water (yall know my theory on caffeine) from in the time it took to complete a hand. They had a sandwich operation going as well. Didn't partake, but the sloppy joes smelt good.
Cost to play:
10-20 $2 drop + $1 at 100, + jackpot. Too high IMO, but it's up to those players to change that.
15-30 stud $5/half hour. (I think; I only played the game while waiting for seat in higher game and never paid time nor recall seeing a drop, tho I of course might be in error.)
20-40 $5/half hour. This I'm sure of. Got a freebie in the first hour as the game was just starting.
30-60 mix $6/half hour. Once again, I think. I never made it into this game.
No higher games were going Saturday. Friday the mix was $40-80; I'm not sure what the charge was.
Overall impression: a very professional operation for a room that has been in business but two days. Looking forward to many years of mutual success.
Jim Geary
jaygee at primenet dot com
http://www.primenet.com/~jaygee/
Are any forum posters/readers going to be at the Commerce Casino this Saturday for the finale of the Cal. State Poker Championships?
Presently, I intend to come play up to 3 satellites and win my way into this event, otherwise spending the day in the ring games. According to the tournament room, the satellites will cost $115, be 10-handed, with the winner getting an entry into the $1,000 + 60 NL HE championship. BTW, as I forgot to ask, will these 1 table events pay out a non-transferable entry, or lammers? If you have any other information that may be useful, please post or email me. Thanks.
If you're there, feel free to say hi when I'm not in a hand. Just look for the big guy with a bunch of rocks on the table.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Just returned from the Commerce tournament. Tournament is being held in the Copa Cabana annex. Super-satellites start at 5 and 8:30 p.m. costing $40. Single table satellites are being run as demand warrants (which, some nights, was non-existent). Satellites in the morning start at 10 a.m. on weekdays; 12 noon on weekends.
Side action in the main casino is loose-aggressive-wild; even in the big games, action can be very wild. Forget the books and hone in on what the players are doing. Step up your game and win some real money (instead of investing, say, $800 or $1000 in a 20-40 game, I recommend putting it in a 40-80 game and parlaying on up to a bigger game).
All mid-to high-limit games are held up on the raised area, with the 10-20 to 20-40 being held directly below that. Commerce offers HE, Stud, Stud-8, Omaha-8, all limits up to 80-160 (some nights 100-200 and 200-400 and pot-limit). Watch and listen to the locals seated next to the dealer and watch out for the fingernail marks on the cards (One well-known player told me the marks don't matter, cuz most of the locals can't read anyway; but forewarned is forearmed).
Let the hotels know you are in town for the tournament for a better rate. Ramada is $49, Wyndham is $64, and Commerce is $49. I was touted away from the Commerce (the closest) and stayed at the Ramada on the corner of Gage road and Slausen (about a 3 mile ride (about $6 taxi)). There is also a Travelodge all-suites hotel across from the Ramada, which, if I'd known about, I'd have probably tried first. The locals warn against walking around Commerce at night, although I suppose that could apply anywhere.
If you get a chance, check out Crystal Park, about a 20 minute ride (down I-710 I think). Beautiful facility (one of the cleanest casinos I've ever seen), with several poker areas, including a special high-limit room, all below a nice Radisson hotel. The high limit room is hosted by Bobby Turner, with Frank Henderson and Kathy Keller assisting. If you intend to play in the high-limit room, let Frank or Kathy know and you'll be able to get an excellent rate (I expect you'll see both of them in the final event at the Commerce).
Unfortunately, I'll not get to return for the final -- missing 10 days is about all my business can stand at a time, especially not long after the WSOP. See you at The Orleans.
"Let the hotels know you are in town for the tournament for a better rate. Ramada is $49, Wyndham is $64, and Commerce is $49."
Commerce?? What exactly do you mean by the Commerce? Do they have a hotel now? I thought the Holiday Inn was only about 3 blocks away and had a reasonable weekly rate. $280??
Please correct me if I am wrong.
There's also a hotel called the Commerce (Plaza?) not far from the casino (a few blocks). A dump, so I've heard.
No great news to report. I played my 3 satellites, and won the 3rd. However, we agreed to a save when heads-up, where the winner paid the loser $300. I took this deal, because the other guy had a decent chip lead at the time, and the only mistake I had seen him make during the satellite was playing too aggressively (which means he was now playing just about right, for heads-up play). Well, this means I have now spent over $600 in satellite play to enter, not much of a savings.
The actual tournament was very anticlimactic. I played at the same table with Bobby Hoff and Erik Seidel, and watched Bobby play at least 40% of the hands. Very good player though, except he has to be as good as he is, because he is usually starting out with the worst cards. I won an early pot with AA for an immmediate increase of 200 in my stack (up to 1200), but then just slowly bleeded down to 900. Then lost a pot where most of the money went in preflop, and watched the all-in played flop 2-pair with AJ against my AK. Now down to 500. Bled down to 350, then lost an all-in preflop confrontation when my AJ lost to AK. Don't think that I really misplayed any hands, just had no good luck after the AA hand.
See ya next time.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Don't feel lonesome, in the tournament, I was nowhere to be found most of the time (I did take out my revenge on the Californians in the high-limit stud games, however).
The only tournament I did any good in was the Limit HE Shootout (surrendered at the 1st table when outchipped 9-1 heads-up for 20% of the winner). If you know how much I despise limit HE, you'll see the irony there.
Ahhh, but the ultimate goal was to come back to Indiana as the "California State Champion." I would still have been laughing.
Maybe we both better re-read TJ's book on how to play A-K ....
I would be glad to reread his book, but I don't think that it will help. That's the most disappointing thing about this tournament, was that I didn't really learn much. I don't think that I misplayed any of my hands. When I lost with AK, most of the money went in preflop (the other guy was shortstacked), and the flop came AJx. I can't put this player on AJ when he bets small all-in, so I've got to call.
My other hands, while arguably not played perfectly, weren't misplayed either. I just never got much, nor did I see any good bluffing opportunities. That's how it goes sometimes.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Let me get this :
You said that you surrenedered in a shootout for 20% of the winner's win. So that means you gave up your chips to the winner for 20% of whatever he gets at the final table, right?
Is that fair to everybody else? Is there a problem with this? I would think, in certain situations, I would have a major problem with this if I was one of the other players at the final table. (such as , if the player you gave up to was a better player than you, it would obviously be in my favor for you to keep playing so you might get lucky and beat him)
It's a good point, although a bit moot -- at that stage, all of the players are usually pretty good. As you may already know, a shootout is structured similar to a satellite, the winners moving on to the final two (money) tables. We had cut a deal three-handed for a 10% save and then when outchipped 9-1 heads-up, he offered an additional 10%. But as in any satellite, when the stakes get high in the final stages, it becomes a crapshoot, so yes, I might've won a couple hands in a row and been right back in it.
As to how that might've affected the final outcome, actually, Al had to get lucky at the final table to win the thing -- he was in last place when they cut a 4-way deal and came back to win the thing after accepting much less than what 2nd place ultimately got (who was chip leader at the time). Deal-making is routine in tournaments, I would guess even more so in the shootouts. As to your final point, Al plays a lot tighter than I do (in fact, tighter than anyone at the final table), so I'm not sure if the final table would've preferred to face him or someone a bit more aggressive.
I'm currently thinking of purchasing the Turbo 7CS program. But I was just wonderin' if if was worth it. I'm sure there are people on this board who use the programs, so I was wonderin' what you think. I downloaded the demos and must say I wasn't too impressed. It was the old DOS version, so maybe the new Windows version is better. Is it worth nearly $100?
Years ago(roughly a dozen) David wrote an article in Gambling Times which was a list of, in his opinion, the most knowledgable gamblers. This was one of my favorite articles. I was wondering if either of you had considered writing an updated list or similarly a list of the best poker players. Thanks.
Just wondering if any of the forum readers and contributors play in the Tucson, Arizona area.
carlos
Tho I live in Phoenix now, I went to school in Tucson from 89-91 when all the games were underground. If Pete C is still alive and running a game, I recommend checking it out. That man can cook.
As for the casino scene, I still see a lot of the players from way back when. Last week when the new casino in Phoenix opened, I saw a lot of the old Tucson faces. Tho this information is second hand, it was relayed to me by credible sources. Here is the deal as I understand it:
Desert Diamond now as a monopoly on casino poker in Tucson. When the Casino of the Sun poker room was open, CotS had a few low-limit games and a pot-limit game several nights a week. DD had superior location (closer to town) and used this to start their own pot-limit poker game drawing all the players from CotS. Eventually, CotS closed their room, and now DD has a monopoly. Since establishing the monopoly, DD has dropped not only the pot-limit, but other big games as well. Their goal is to prevent anyone but the casino from taking money out of the poker economy. They may feel they have the leverage to do this, being a monopoly. However, there are alternatives. Less than an hour from Tucson is the Harrah's Ak-Chin Casino near the town of Maricopa, and if you care to play higher than 6-12, there is no shortage of action at Casino AZ 75 minutes away in Scottsdale. Vote with your feet.
Anyway, as I said, this info is second hand, so I'm taking some chance posting it, tho I feel my sources are credible. I would love to be shown wrong.
JG
I played some 2-4 and 3-6 poker at the DD casino last January. CofS's poker room had died, but DD did spread a pot-limit Omaha game both nights (Fri/Sat). If your rumors are well-founded, then they killed that game sometime after January.
Rake was terrible. As soon as the 3-6 game's pot reached $10, they removed $1 for rake and $1 for the bad beat jackpot. Additional rake was taken as the pot grew. And there were no 50-cent chips, so dealer tokes were $1.
But the opposition was wonderful. I netted $97 in two hours at the 3-6 game. At the 2-4 game, I got terrible cards (again for two hours) and only netted $35. There was an older woman who didn't re-raise on the river with the nut straight because she "knew" she was splitting the pot with the heads-up raiser; she saved herself money because she only had a four-card straight.
This is sliding a bit off topic, but if I've decided that 50c/ hand is the appropriate tip, a good way to implement this is to tip $1 on any hand where at least one bet gets called on the turn or river. Of course, low limit games probably play different than medium. Not saying that's what anyone else shoud do (dear God, don't start a tip thread here) - just giving you an option.
Thanks for responding.
A year or so ago, when I started playing poker (1-4 7 card stud) I used to go to the Casino of the Sun. It was a little further away, but I thought that the dealers were very nice, the atmosphere was good, they gave you a free meal coupon for the buffet. When I started playing Hold'em I started to go to the Desert Diamond Casino (since hold'em action was somewhat erradic at CofS). Then CofS closed and the pot limit game shifted to DD. Now they don't spread it anymore because they say it kills their 10-20 Hold'em game. (I actually liked it when pot limit was around because a few tough 10-20 players would not play Hold'em and would be at the pot limit). I usually play 6-12 and every now and then (when I win at 6-12 and the game has gotten pretty tight and tough) I will play 10-20.
We have been trying to get a 6-12 game with a kill, but the management does not listen. The bad beat jackpot has been capped at $25,000, and when is capped the bad beat jackpot drop still fall in the slot.
When I went to Gila River in Phoenix for the first time I thought it was much better, better games, better comps. But I haven't been there in a couple of months. Maybe next time I go back to the Phoenix area I can meet a couple of you guys that play in the area.
Later,
Carlos
Maybe a bit off topic for this forum but:
You might want to just leave the 6-12 game as a regular, non-kill structure. Depending on how it is used, a kill structure may do very little to raise the limit of a game. (e.g., in the San Diego area, a kill hold'em game usually means that you kill it if you win two pots in a row. This only raises the overall limit a tiny bit.) On the other hand, it adds a few minor strategic twists that increase the edge of better players. In time the result may be that the weaker players stay broke more and the health of the game suffers. In turn, the health of the bigger games in the area will suffer as the smaller games feed into them. I can't prove this with any clear cut evidence (re. kill games), but the logic seems clear. As Mason M. has written, once you start changing the standard structure in ways that throw off the balance of luck and skill, the health of the game will suffer. In extreme cases, such as no-limit, the games usually die before too long.
I agree (partially) about kill games. There ARE strategic differences that I don't believe any of the other players in my regular game are aware of. It's a topic that hasn't seen much print and I prefer it that way. Mason's old essay on overs in one of his books is a start, but I've done some thinking and there is quite a bit more to "the theory of kills." (Actually, I'd like to write more on overs as well, but I prefer to keep my cards close to the vest.)
But this to me is reason to push for this twist when I play. If I were in the cardroom seven days a week, I MIGHT agree with the good-for-the-games reasoning. However, playing but one night a week, the edges I push are going to have a small impact on the overall health of the games. A lot of these players are playing five or more nights a week, and the survival of the game is a function of a whole bunch of things that just don't involve me. I feel fairly confident that a 2meg metropolitan area will be able to continue to support 2 or 3 20-40 and above games for quite some time, even if they're spreading kill those other 6 nights I'm not there.
For that reason, it would be silly for me to be magnanimously sacrificing EV in the interest of the game.
As for Carlos' situation, Desert Diamond is now artificially pushing down the natural flow of money by preventing the players from playing as big as they want. They're attempting to tug the equilibrium almost completely out of the good players' hands and into the drop. Players there should do everything they can to tug back.
JG
Here's a couple of comments. First, poker is frequently a struggle between players who are looking for an extra edge and cardroom management that doesn't want anyone to loose too much so that they will have a game tomorrow. My opinion is that this is the wrong philosophy for cardroom management to adopt. By doing this, they don't develop the regular players who will start games and keep games going.
Second, I wrote a good deal about kill pots in my book WINNING CONCEPTS IN DRAW AND LOWBALL. I haven't looked at this material in years so I don't remember exactly what is there. It mostly addresses "look at two" and kill, but you may find it worthwhile.
Mason Malmuth writes (in part): "First, poker is frequently a struggle between players who are looking for an extra edge and cardroom management that doesn't want anyone to loose too much so that they will have a game tomorrow. My opinion is that this is the wrong philosophy for cardroom management to adopt. By doing this, they don't develop the regular players who will start games and keep games going."
This sounds like you're saying management should allow changes in structure that give better players a bigger edge when those players want the changes. But that seems to contradict much that you've written about the negative effects of pot/no limit, as well as other structure changes such as "Three Tiers", the "Rock Game", overs, etc. Do I misunderstand? If you're just saying management should not hold down the *limits* when players want them higher, then I understand and agree.
I am saying that management should not hold down the limits. Years ago I once had dinner with a well known cardroom manager who described the ultimate poker room to me. It was Bally's in the early 1980's. They had every table going everyday and the biggest game was $5-$10. Needless to say this showed a total misunderstanding of what it takes to run a cardroom successfully, and this operation did not last very long.
Mason,
If I remember correctly there is a short essay on games with a kill in Poker Essays (i think it was taken from Winning Concepts in Draw and Lowball). I was wondering where can I find an essay on playing with 'overs', since Desert Diamond Casino will let you play with overs as long as it's the highest limit running at the time (6-12 and below). Or if the strategies are similar to playing with a 'kill'.
Maybe this should be a question I should ask in the strategy and theory forum.
Thank you,
carlos
See Mason's "Playing the Overs" in _Poker Essays, Vol. II_.
I've played a fair amount of overs at the Village Club near San Diego. I'll post some ideas on overs in the stategy forum.
For *this* forum I'll just mention that if you happen to visit San Diego you should check to see what they have going at the Village Club. It's in Chula Vista, just South of S.D., but is actually the closest (hold'em playing) cardroom to most of te S.D. area. What game they get going can be a bit unpredictable, and it's a sort of "mom and pop" operation, but it's middle limit game is often the best in the area.
Thanks for responding John. Also, I have read your post on the Theory and Strategy Forum and I will take a look at Mason's Poker Essay's II. I figure that is always good to know the strategy changes when you are playing a little different from 'normal' structure, even though it might not happen too often.
As a matter of fact, the only two places I have played hold'em in the San Diego area are Viejas and Village Club. I visit San Diego at least once every two months (my father lives in Chula Vista and my mother lives in Tijuana, across the border). I have only played the 3-6 game at the Village Club and it is not a bad game. Some of the house players seem to be good and some other are really loose and wild.
I will be there this weekend (starting tomorrow) so I might get a chance to stop by the Village Club on my way to Tijuana.
Later,
carlos
Carlos,
If the chances for a daytime 20-40 game look good I'll be at the Village Club tomorrow and Friday. If you get there, please stop by to say hello. I'll be the guy wearing shorts (not great air conditioning there), glasses, with a blue carrying bag and sweatshirt or jacket hanging off the back of my chair. Or just ask an employee to point me out.
BTW recently while waiting for 20-40 I've played a couple of times in their 8-16 kill game and it was *very* good. Almost made me not want to bother with 20-40.
Yes, their current props are fairly solid, but mostly fairly straight forward as well.
I used to play 3-6 and 4-8 there, and they were certainly good games. Still appear to be.
While I certainly won't complain about the "quality" of the games at the VC, there is one thing I don't like. All of their games are played with a maximum of 8 players. From a management perspective, this makes sense (you'll make more money from 9 tables of 8 than from 8 tables of 9). However, I prefer to play HE with more players in the game, or just a few (me + 2-4). Admittedly, this may be because I don't adjust as well to games played 6-8 handed. My favorite HE game was a house game in Wisconsin played with from 10-13 players. Love that kind of action.
Thus, if I lived equidistant from VC and Oceans 11, I would go play in Oceans 11 instead. Fortunately for me, I live much closer to Oceans 11 than VC. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hi John,
I'll try to stop by the VC today before 8pm and maybe tomorrow around noon or so. Maybe I'll see you there.
Later,
carlos
Jim Geary writes (in part): "If I were in the cardroom seven days a week, I MIGHT agree with the good-for-the-games reasoning. However, playing but one night a week, the edges I push are going to have a small impact on the overall health of the games. A lot of these players are playing five or more nights a week, and the survival of the game is a function of a whole bunch of things that just don't involve me."
I really don't know *how* much increase in edge a kill game provides a better player. But if it provides enough, then my concern is that the better players in that game on all those nights you're not there, and yourself on the nights you are, may just bust the weaker players a bit too fast for the health of the game. This all flows from the assumption that the standard structure provides the optimal skill/luck balance. In reality the added edge may be trivial enough that it makes little difference. I don't know.
"I feel fairly confident that a 2meg metropolitan area will be able to continue to support 2 or 3 20-40 and above games for quite some time, even if they're spreading kill those other 6 nights I'm not there."
Phoenix, right? I'll be interested to see how it does go. I'm in San Diego which is just about the same size. (I heard recently that Phx [my home town BTW] just passed San Diego as 6th largest U.S. city.) Here 2 or 3 20-40 games in the area is exactly what the population seems able to sustain. There has been no *regularly* spread game higher than that. It's ironic because there are San Diego players who play 40-80 and higher on a very regular basis in L.A. These players almost never play in San Diego because there are no higher limit games here.
"Desert Diamond is now artificially pushing down the natural flow of money by preventing the players from playing as big as they want. They're attempting to tug the equilibrium almost completely out of the good players' hands and into the drop. Players there should do everything they can to tug back."
I totally agree. I'm never in favor of casinos holding down the limits when the players want them higher. In fact, as I hinted at above, we're involved to a lesser degree in the same sruggle in San Diego right now.
I don't *think* I'm contradicting myself. I doesn't seem that players go broke because of the presence of higher limit games. In general I think players don't regularly play at a limit they can't more or less afford. I mean they can see very quickly what's happening to their money, and so they back off. But a change in structure may have a more insidious effect.
I was wondering what are good measures to take against the casino management in order to prevent to "tug the equilibrium completely out of the good players and into the drop"?
Is it something you can do by playing less hands (be even more selective in your starting hands than, say, those suggested in Hold'em for Advanced Players? Or simply just start playing at a different casino (Phoenix in my case)?
carlos
I play the $10-20 HE (with a kill) game at Desert Diamond once or twice a week, usually on weekends, as I live 60 miles away. The staff is friendly and DD caters to both regulars, snow-birds, and people just passing through on I-10. The $6-12 and $10-20 HE action is good and as in most poker games there are the habitual losers and winners. DD has bad-beat jackpots which they cap at $25K for stud, HE, and Omaha (HL), and take a buck a hand. On a typical Friday or Saturday night there are about 20 games spread with a must-move $10-20. Sometime they get a pot limit game going but it does not usually last too long as the weak players get tapped out early. Also, $10-20 players get comped for food.
I'm going to be in Vegas next month with my wife. I am a small stakes 7-stud player and would like to know the best places to play. I prefer a very loose game in the 3-6 or 4-8 range. I would drop to a 1-4 game if they are alot looser. I'm not interested in your typical grind game, I prefer lots of action. Can anyone help?
Brad-
Most low limit stud games in Vegas are spread limit 1-5 games with the next level being 5-10 structured limit. Basically all card rooms spread 1-5 stud. Personally I don't play anywhere but the Mirage and the Horseshoe because they (IMO) are the best run rooms in town. They are also the biggest and the wait to get in a low limit game won't be very long even on a Saturday night. Plus there are plenty of other low limit games going on so you can switch tables if you don't like the one you are in. Be sure to stick close by because when they page you for a seat they will pass you by if you don't respond quickly. The Horseshoe used to be very generous with comps (the buffet is outstanding). Play 4-6 hours and you could get a buffet. Not sure how they are now with the management changes going on.
If you are looking for action be careful. Even at the lower limits there are some very good players in the low limit games in Vegas. Playing in a cardroom in Vegas is a quantum leap from playing in a home game unless you are playing with experienced players. My brother likes the Excalibur's cardroom because the lower limit games are pretty soft compared to what you will find at the Shoe or the Mirage.
Good luck and let us know how you do.
LWD
I would like to know whether there is any poker life in present Russia? What kind of poker games are available? Do they spread the games structured the same way as in US casinos?
Thanks, Leo
The Casino Ray in Helsinki is nice. (It's in the Ramada Inn?) Hotel, not far from the train station.
The games start in the evening, about 5 P.M., as I recall. There were four tables last time I was there (>2 years ago).
Limits about $10 & $20; Stud & Hold 'em.
Is the schedule of events for the Orleans open available on-line? if not could someone please post it, thanks.
OK, I found the schedule of events on-line. Does anyone know if they offer a poker rate at the hotel etc, any info anyone has would really help, thanks.
Can any one tell me which of the Black Hawk/Central City casinos are currently spreading games? Did a big, new place just open? Which of the rooms is the *least* smoky? Thanks in advance. Dan Radosevich.
I know it's bit late to respond, but you should know that the Lodge Casino in Black Hawk opened just a few weeks ago spreading, I believe, 9 tables of mostly $2-5 HE. This is by far the most smoke-free room due to the very large open space in which it is located. Other rooms are located at Colorado Central Station, Bullwackers and Harvey's (up the hill in Central City).
I was wondering which one of the above daily tourneys players thought is better and why. I have played in the one at the Luxor and found it good. I have not played at Orleans, but have heard good things. Could someone please comment on these?
I don't play many tourney's, but find the Luxor tourney's much softer. The Orleans has many more regulars to contend with, plus the rebuy structure makes the events costlier.
I am new to Hold 'Em. I have read several books and am doing OK in my play on line. I was wondering if anyone had played the lower limit games at the Soaring Eagle in Mt. Pleasant Mi. That is the nearest room to me, and I was wondering what I could expect. Thanks in advance!
According to the ESPN web site the July TV calendar lists a one hour time slot for the 1998 WSOP on July 12 at 12:30 am. EST and on July 21 at 1:00 pm. EST. ESPN2 shows nothing. ESPN gives a better time slot to Japanese Sumo Wrestling. It looks like I'll have to figure out how to use the VCR.
I plan on making a trip to Cortez Colorado some time soon. I was wondering if anyone knows what poker games they spread at Ute Mountain Casino. Any other information will also be helpful.
Thanks,
Dice
A short description of poker on the Grand Victoria Casino and Resort (riverboat), 600 Grand Victoria Drive, Rising Sun, Indiana 47070, 812-438-1234 (I used http://www.MapsOnUs.com to find it, but disregarded the driving instructions).
From Indianapolis, it is about a 110 mile journey, I-74 to U.S. 421 to U.S. 50, then from Aurora about a 7 mile journey on Indiana 56, which winds along the bank of the Ohio River. From Cincinnati, Ohio, it is about a 30 mile drive, I-275 to U.S. 50 to Indiana 56. It is also relatively close to Louisville, Kentucky (perhaps 130-150 miles), but the easiest approach would be to drive to Cincinnati and circle around. There is another boat in the vicinity, called Argosy, but there is no poker on the Argosy. (For players in the Indiana area, another boat is being put in this fall in the Louisville area, and several boats in Northern Indiana also offer poker).
Boarding times on the Grand Victoria are on the odd hour, every two hours, and the Indiana Gaming Commission only allows you to board at those times, even when the boat is docked (although if the boat is docked, you may leave at any time). They charge a $5.00 fee to board, with a $1.00 discount for senior citizens ($3 of this goes to the state). Valet charged $3.00, not counting tip when picking up the car. Parking lots were large and well-maintained/lighted.
The boat is fairly new (perhaps 2 years old), and seemed fairly well-maintained. The Ohio River was up with a lot of debris in the river, so the boat remained docked while I was on board. If the boat cruises, it begins the cruise 1/2 hour after boarding.
Poker room is on the 4th floor of the boat. Although I'm a non-smoker, the room does allow smoking, but the ventilation seemed pretty good. There were 8 tables with room to add more (although interim manager James Sloane knew of no plans to do so). No tournaments or other promotions planned, according to Mr. Sloane. In a bit of an oddity, the poker room also has some empty tables for the overflow crowd from the snack bar.
Rake is 10% up to a maximum of $5 in all games. Games offered were low-to-mid-limit Stud, Hold-em, and Omaha, with 20-40 stud being the biggest game in the room. Dealers share tips. After you are on the list, you will be paged, allowing you to go anywhere on the boat while waiting (actually, it is harder to hear the page when IN the poker room than it is anywhere else on the boat). On a Friday night, I had to wait about 45 minutes to get into the 20-40 game; lists for all other games were much longer.
Playing atmosphere in the 20-40 was fairly congenial, with what appeared to be a core of regulars and perhaps 1/3 to 1/2 occasional "home" players. The regulars appeared to be pretty typical "book" players, whose idea of aggression was betting on the come, with the weekend players playing nearly every hand. As I noted in a different post, this type of game is a high deviation game, although highly profitable if catching even a small share of the cards (pots in the 20-40 were often multiway, running $500-600 each).
Getting to the Grand Victoria requires driving through several quaint old Indiana towns and along many miles of two-lane roads. If you are the kind of person who enjoys old towns and hilly forested drives, this trip might be for you. On the other hand, with a small selection of games, a high rake, entry fee and valet charges, and a difficult to reach destination, it's probably not worth going too far out of your way to play there.
You forgot to mention that the dealers are slow and inexperienced, but thankfully so are the players.
I'm going to Vegas in three weeks. I plan to play at the 5-10 level.
1. Where is the best 5-10 Omaha-8 game?
2. Where is the best 5-10 stud-8 game?
3. Are the low ($20-$30) buy-in tournaments worth playing? Does the rate of increase in the blinds make them too much of a crapshoot for the advantage of a better player to overcome the $10 entry fee?
4. Should I avoid Mirage and Binions (better players) or will that not matter at 5-10? Will I be able to find high-low games spread at all times elsewhere?
5. Out of holdem, Omaha-8, stud high and stud-8, which is the most profitable at 5-10 in terms of hourly rate?
>I'm going to Vegas in three weeks. I plan to play at the >5-10 level.
3-6, and 6-12, and to a lesser extent 4-8 are the more common limits in LV.
>1. Where is the best 5-10 Omaha-8 game?
The best one I've played in is the 6-12 at the Mirage. They may spread one or a 4-8 game at the Orleans. They used to spread a 4-8 game at the Horseshoe that was okay, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that gone now that poker is being massively de-emphasized at the 'Shoe. Pity.
>2. Where is the best 5-10 stud-8 game?
I liked the 4-8 stud game at the Horseshoe. That game may still exist. If not, I'd try the Orleans.
>3. Are the low ($20-$30) buy-in tournaments worth playing?
I think so, because they're fun. This is a really good way to get acclimated to the rules of a poker room without risking a big bankroll right off the bat.
>Does the
>rate of increase in the blinds make them too much of a >crapshoot for the
>advantage of a better player to overcome the $10 entry fee?
IMHO, probably, especially since a lot of these low limit tourney players in LV are very good. A lot of them are just killing time there until the next major tournament rolls into town. Nonetheless, I don't think they are a horrendous deal, and you can always try to find something on the order of a $50 buyin tourney that might be a better gamble.
On the other hand, some of the very small card rooms have very poor tournament players in their events, like at the Luxor, where you might actually get an overlay if you know what you're doing. My advice, enter one early and see if you enjoy it.
>4. Should I avoid Mirage and Binions (better players) or >will that not
>matter at 5-10?
Player quality tends to spread out. Binion's is not (or soon won't) be the same place it used to. Once this happens, the Mirage will be #1 probably followed by the Orleans. Too bad. I wouldn't specifically avoid the big rooms, go wherever you want.
>Will I be able to find high-low games spread at all times >elsewhere?
Yes.
>5. Out of holdem, Omaha-8, stud high and stud-8, which is >the most profitable at 5-10 in terms of hourly rate?
Whichever one you play best and your opponents play worst. IMHO, if you're looking to make money, look for the loosest players or the most tourists and play that game. If you can't tell, go with your strength.
The Mirage just about always has a 4-8 Omaha 8OB with a half kill going. Sometimes there are two. I understand it is a very good game with many weak players, although I do not play it myself.
The Mirage is a good room to play in with better ventilation than the HS. I don't know about other rooms.
Jessica
I am moving to California by the end of the year and plan to play poker for as long as I can without getting a "real" job. I love the Bay Area and have played at both the Oaks Club, which I liked a lot, and Bay101, which I wasn't too impressed with. However, I haven't been to the Los Angeles/San Diego area and would like to know what the differences are between those games and the ones up North. Thank you
Greg Geller
I've played fairly extensively in both, although more so in SoCal. Really, the differences aren't very great. The SoCal clubs tend to be more like Bay101 than the Oaks, though, in my opinion.
I think rakes tend to be a bit higher in the biggest SoCal clubs, especially the Bike (these days) and Commerce. Of course these two and Hollywood Park are probably each about twice the size of the Bay101.
It's easier to find mid and higher limit games going in SoCal and I think the opposition at low and mid limits is comparable, but there are probably more pros playing in the higher limits in SoCal than in the Bay area.
Let me know if you have any more questions or any specific questions that I could help you with.
According to Cardplayers Internet site, the 1999 WSOP will not be held at Binions. I'm sure some casino will be thrilled to host this prestigious event. How about the TAJ! See ya at the US Poker Championships in November.
Now that I've had some expierence with the little battles that go on with the Smokers and Non-Smokers with Fans. I've come up with a good solution to the major problem.
First, the Biggest problem with Smokers is that when they are not smoking a Trail of Smoke comes from the Cigarette and for some reason gos strait into a Non-Smokers Face. The Non-smoker then gets pissed and turns on his little Fan and blows the Smoke back at the Smoker.
How to relieve this problem? Good ventalation is a way to get most of the Smoke out of the Room, but still the biggest problem is that that concentrated Line of Smoke from the Cigarette in the Ash Tray is still Hitting the Non-Smoker in the Face.
Casinos can use the Hepa Filter Ashtrays with fans. As long as the Hepa Filter is in good shape this will stop the line of Smoke from bothering the other players. A better, but more radical idea would be to have the poker Table modified with Vacuum Hoses that went to each position. The table could be plugged into a main Vacuum in the Floor, and all that unwanted Smoke could be rushed outside. This sounds radical, but could be easily done and for a small price to the Casinos.
CV
there are some problems here: 1) Hepa Filter ashtrays are more expensive than the usual glass of plastic ones. Also, the casio would need to by more of the hepa filter ashtrays, because the would need to be replaced more often than the usual ashtrays. How long to you think these hepa filter ashtrays will stay in the casino? As soon as they are introduced, they will be going right out the front door.
2) Your other idea is VERY radical and impractical. Do you really want to sit at a table with ten hoses under it? Where would you put your legs?
3) In oder to do this, thefloor of the casio would need to be ripped up. Air vent would need to be installed UNDERGROUND. This would not be cheap. Not to mention the money the casio would loose during the construction.
I think that a better idea is for the nonsmoker to ask the smoker to move the ashtray. I used to smoke and I never refused this type of request. Also, as a current non smoker, I have never this type of request refused
If this smoke/fan war really bothers you so much, just move to California. Smokers and non smokers play without ever having this problem. (Although, games are often short, while the smokers go outside.)
"Re: Improving the Smoking Table
Posted by Chris Konwin on Tuesday, 7 July 1998, at 7:03 p.m., in response to Improving the Smoking Table, posted by Chris Villalobos on Tuesday, 7 July 1998, at 4:00 p.m.
2) Your other idea is VERY radical and impractical. Do you really want to sit at a table with ten hoses under it? Where would you put your legs?"
Eddies diner in seattle has such tables. Although I didn't care for them this is how they worked. At various spots around the table you placed a special ashtry in a hole built into the table. These "holes" provided suction that worked to alleviate the smoke when the cigarette was in the ashtray. As far as that went it worked. The problem with these tables was the fact that these ashtrays were in the way of your arms and you had to manuever around them, which was a pain. The "hoses" were simply small diamater tubes that were connected underneath the table and did not get in the way at all. You didn't even know they were there.
"3) In oder to do this, thefloor of the casio would need to be ripped up. Air vent would need to be installed UNDERGROUND. This would not be cheap. Not to mention the money the casio would loose during the construction."
I don't believe this is the case, although I don't know where the smoke went on the tables I previously mentioned.
"I think that a better idea is for the nonsmoker to ask the smoker to move the ashtray. I used to smoke and I never refused this type of request. Also, as a current non smoker, I have never this type of request refused."
This is true but what if it bothers the players on BOTH sides of you? Then where do you move it to?
"If this smoke/fan war really bothers you so much, just move to California."
Comeon and give us all a break. This isn't even worth responding to.
"Smokers and non smokers play without ever having this problem. (Although, games are often short, while the smokers go outside.)"
If smokers were truly considerate they wouldn't even light up in a public place. But since they have the right to do so in many places then there must be a meeting of the minds.
If my memory serves me correct, when the MGM opened in Las Vegas in 1993 they had vacuum hoses attached to their ash trays just as you describe. After a couple of days I heard that they were removed because they clogged up and did not work very well.
Sounds like a design problem. I would think each tray would need a "trap" that could be emptied so that clogging couldn't happen. I still think its a good idea. If anyone is out there that can make a system that works, I'm sure there will be a demand for it.
CV
As an occasional smoker in the casino I usually try to get up between hands and smoke. If the smoke trail once the cigarrete is in the ashtray seems to be bothering someone I will usually ask if they are bothered by the smoke, if they say yes I will try to move the ashtray as far away from the table as possible, if that doesn't work then I put the cigarette out.
I think the main thing of smoking in the casinos is courtesy. Whether is smoking, liking your fingers and touching the cards, and so forth...
carlos
I agree. Courtesy and common sense are the keys. We smokers should try to position ashtrays so the smoke doesn't bother anyone, exhale away from the table, have a smoke when making a bathroom break, et cet.. This won't eliminate all of it but does go a long way to improving the situation.
In the three years I have been occasionally playing poker in LV it seems to me that smoking at poker tables is declining rapidly. As a smoker I am very much in the minority now. I'm not sure that banning smoking at poker tables would have a big impact on the games. I'm still going to play. I'll just wind up smoking less -- having one on the occasional restroom break.
Regards,
Leigh Davis
The latest news appears to be that the WSOP is not cancelled. I've included a link to the Las Vegas Sun article.
That article sounds like good news. I am looking forward to playing in my first WSOP next year. The Las Vegas Sun has an excellent archive, dating back almost a year and a half. Type in poker at the search command, and get almost 600 stories for free. www.lasvegassun.com
Since Suzie Issacs, from Card Player, and I went back and forth about this a little while ago, I was wondering how this has turned out in CA.
1) How significantly, if at all, has the smoking ban affected the poker games? Are smokers dropping completely (I doubt it, being poker-obsessed myself)?
2) Is the smokers' downtime (resulting in short games) signficantly affecting the games and expected return, either negatively or positively? Are full games harder to find (temporary shortness excluded)?
3) How has the general attitude been, now that the initial way of venting is probably over?
4) Do the smokers play worse or better than normal? (those that you recognize)
I'd appreciate any observations....
I've been to California to play twice this year. Both times I played 15-30 HE at the Commerce. I noticed no negative effects. The games were full most of the time. One player actually ATE a cigarette over about 2 1/2 hours. A couple of the smokers I spoke with said they were actually smoking less overall as a result of the ban. I think the "Doom and Gloom" smoking advocates were wrong about this one. It does seem as if the urge to smoke can be ignored, for a certain period, to accomodate the urge to gamble. We humans are mighty adaptable! As far as the clubs bottom line is concerned, I have heard rumors that the ban has hurt the Asian games somewhat (10% down is what I heard). Do the smokers play worse? The bad play was no more appalling than the times I had been in California before the ban. Those games are terrific.
Jessica
I just posted a comment in the previous thread but will say the same thing here. I'm a smoker and wouldn't have a problem with banning it in card rooms. People take breaks anyway- to go to the restroom, stretch their legs, clear their head. Us smokers can just have a cig while we do one of the above. I think I would smoke less and just adapt to it. It would also mean less clutter on the tables and less mess to clean up when an ashtray is knocked over.
Regards,
Leigh Davis
East cost plaers have only 2 major turnaments a year. Word poker final and New england poker clasic. Now Trump Taj put scedgule for US poker championship. When i saw an add i belived i can play in third one. But when i compeare sceddgules for NJ and CT both events are in same time. Is manedgement in AC did it on purpose or it was becase of bad comunication. Is posible to do somethink now to cange scedgules.
I've read and heard a lot about the levels of rakes in various games, to the point of people saying, "Don't play at Card Room X! They rake $3.50 from each pot! Go to Card Room Y! They only take $3."
Some claim that the higher level of rake will eventually chase away players and close a Card Room, but I don't buy that. Are Poker players really that cheap? Shouldn't the "texture"and quality of the game be the most important considerations? Why beat up on the casino management over fifty cents?
A Card Room (at least outside of California) gets closed 98% of the time because someone in the Casino's management (Probably the Marketing Department) determines that slot machines would be more profitable, IMHO. (The other 2% is dedicated to Bally's Las Vegas, where one of the best Poker rooms closed and a snack bar was installed; And at the Las Vegas Hilton, where offices were put in.)
I played at the Holland Casino in Amsterdam, where a rake per pot of around $8-$12 was not uncommon, and in a $6 & $12 game! But I didn't mind. I made $2,000 that night. As far as I know, that game is still going.
Competition will act to keep rakes down, of course, but again, I ask, does it really matter? Wouldn't it be nice if the Poker Rooms could show a bit more contribution to a casino's bottom line, and therefore stay open?
In the lower limit games, the rake is a huge factor, literally grinding the players into the felt. For bigger games, I agree that the rake is less relevant to the outcome of a player's fortunes. However, it is obvious that the more the casino takes, the less the players get in return -- this certainly reduces all players' bottom lines.
A fair rake is rarely disparaged by knowledgable players. Yet where the house takes a disproportionate amount out of the pot, keeps the limits artificially low (in order to ensure that the house ALWAYS gets the money), and returns little in the way of amenities, then the players have not only a right to complain, but indeed, an obligation.
The free market is the best way to keep the rake at "normal" levels: competition will always be the most efficient way of weeding out those who gouge their customers. But I suspect that as poker's popularity widens, the government will start crushing further in to try and suck more revenue in the name of a "sin tax". Over the course of the last 20 years, the bureaucrats have methodically attempted and largely succeeded in killing horse-racing, so there's no reason to expect different here.
"Some claim that the higher level of rake will eventually chase away players and close a Card Room, but I don't buy that. Are Poker players really that cheap? Shouldn't the "texture"and quality of the game be the most important considerations? Why beat up on the casino management over fifty cents?"
If 50¢ is no big deal then why not LOWER the rakes by 50¢?
"If 50¢ is no big deal then why not LOWER the rakes by 50¢?"
Because if it makes the difference between the life and death of a Poker Room, fifty cents (or more) might be justified.
If we look at the difference between casinos that have poker rooms and slot machines (i.e., Nevada casinos) and contrast it to a poker-only casino (i.e., the California poker rooms), we can start to find what is an appropriate range of rake for a poker room anywhere.
Competition is always the best answer, but economies of scale also make a big difference in the rake. I believe this is why the riverboats charge a higher rake than is normal in a casino.
Still, it seems that most casinos figure their customers are suckers and they should get as much as they can as quick as they can, and they'd rather not take a chance on any of it landing in some poker player's pocket. Thus the schizoprenic flip-flopping of some casino executives between higher rakes and no poker room at all.
Earl wrote: "If we look at the difference between casinos that have poker rooms and slot machines (i.e., Nevada casinos) and contrast it to a poker-only casino (i.e., the California poker rooms), we can start to find what is an appropriate range of rake for a poker room anywhere."
I disagree. Many California poker rooms have hired a lot of props which means that the money they clear from their tables may be no more than that cleared from the tables from a cardroom that has a supposedly lower rake. The rake in California is not necessarily higher, it is just less equitable.
I know private home/club games around town who rake a flat 5% uncapped...the game they play the single blind can make the size of the game $5 or $10 or $20 or even $50... In a $1000 pot they took $50! Plus it's "nice to tip the dealer". In 22 hours that game took $12,500 (one table). I also heard of a $100 blind game that also took 5% (uncapped),the game went for 48 hours, 23 different players and dropped $37,500. The waitress made $1800 in tips in 24 hours. Both games are still going strong today. So people love to pay to play.
Yes, the rake is a huge factor at the lower limits. It can totally change the potential profitability of a game-- to the point of making a game unplayable. When casinos first came to Louisiana (I'm from Dallas, TX) only one casino had a cardroom. The rake on the $3-6 Hold 'em was something like 10% capped at $6!!! I didn't make money in that cardroom. I think it only had players b/c it was the only cardroom within 5 hours of Dallas.
That's more than double the Mirage's rake at $3-6. Anyway, the casino finally closed the poker room and put in slot machines. Even with that level of rake I'm sure the slots where more profitable for them. Had to have been since the wait on a Saturday for a seat was 2-4 hours.
My point is two fold: first the rake can ruin a low limit game. Second, a cardroom wil probably never be the casino's leading money maker. Presumably the casinos, like the players, will make rational economic decisions.
Regards,
Leigh Davis
"... the wait on a Saturday for a seat was 2-4 hours."
It seems that there, the players didn't mind the (comparatively) outrageous rake.
It may be as you said, that the game was attractive due to its uniqueness.
But you bring up an interesting point. Why would any casino anywhere have anything but slot machines? Slots are the most profitable form of gambling, require minimal labor, etc. Theoretically, a casino doesn't even need crap games or twenty-one tables.
As for a higher rake being bad for the low limit games, I don't know if I agree. For example, in Lake Tahoe (and elsewhere) the maximum rake for $1-$5 stud (several tables in play) is $4; For $10 & $20 hold 'em (one table), $2. So it seems that the idea is to charge the lower limit players more.
I just don't see why that extra dollar or two is so bad, but, perhaps as you say, if a casino could get away with something like a $10 rake, they still wouldn't consider Poker as promising a "profit center" as slots.
Mr. L wrote: "But you bring up an interesting point. Why would any casino anywhere have anything but slot machines? Slots are the most profitable form of gambling, require minimal labor, etc. Theoretically, a casino doesn't even need crap games or twenty-one tables."
I don't agree with this either. Taking out poker tables and replacing them with slot machines doesn't mean the casino increases its take. For the casino to increase its take it now must have more people playing the slot machines. Poker can help do this if there is a splill over effect. However, if removing poker means that you remove people from the casino then the slot play may actually drop.
The next time you are in a casino try to estimate the percentage of slot machines that are in use. In a joint like The Mirage my estimate is that there is never more than 20 percent of the machines in use -- and this is at prime time.
I agree that the Mirage is the exception, and has about the only full-service, i.e., limits higher than about $4 & $8, Poker Room in Las Vegas, assuming the news/rumor of the Horseshoe's Poker Room shrinking is true. (Except perhaps for the MGM?) (Rumors about the new Bellagio notwithstanding.)
But wouldn't it be nice if there were other places to play? Like in the "good old days," when you had choices for medium and high limit games, such as at Bally's, Ceasar's, Golden Nugget, or even the Stardust?
So, Mr. Malmuth, what is your explanation for Poker Room closings and/or downsizing in Las Vegas? Or at least the general lack of exposure/placement Poker has there, in spite of Las Vegas being the home of the WSOP? (BTW, I always thought it the height of hypocrisy that, prior to Binion's opening their now-perhaps-smaller Poker Room, they hosted the WSOP without a live Poker Room.) Some say that the number of medium and higher limit players is finite, and that there aren't enough to support more than one or two Poker Rooms that cater to such players in Las Vegas. I say that is bunk.
I also don't buy the "Well, since they legalized Hold-'em and 7-card Stud in California, everybody plays there" argument. Otherwise, Atlantic City and the various other venues around the country would never have opened card rooms. (See below.)
So, the reason I asked the original question, "The Rake: Does it REALLY matter?" was because MAYBE if Poker Players weren't so bothered by a higher rake, casinos other than the Mirage might be able to justify an expanded Poker Room existence! Are Poker Players going to fight management over that extra fifty cents or two dollars or whatever until all the Poker Rooms in Las Vegas are closed?
BTW, the Mirage's Poker Room, while very good, is not perfect. I understand that chips of higher denominations than $100 are not used, as they are in other parts of the casino. Granted, it may not be important to have high denomination chips, but once, when trying to cash a personal check at the casino cage, I was told that my check would not be honored if my intention was to just play Poker, even though I had established casino credit. This sort of contempt is not good for Poker, as you pointed out in your three essays on the subject. (And, to set your mind at ease, the Mirage Poker Room management sympathized and was very apologetic about it, but there was nothing they could do. I hold nothing against the Mirage's Poker Room management. They do a Hell of a job.)
And while I am rambling, it is interesting to see how Atlantic City has embraced live Poker, in spite of the fact that live Poker was not on the agenda when casinos were legalized in 1978. One would have thought that the proponents of casino gambling would have had an "easier" time getting Poker legalized. "Easier" than say, craps, slot machines, or even twenty-one. One can only conclude that the casino proponents were not impressed by live Poker's profit potential back in 1978. (However, one excuse I heard was that the AC regulatory atmosphere was concerned about players cheating; That is why a player is not allowed to touch the cards in the twenty-one game, lest they risk the wrath of casino security. Of course, in Poker, one must touch at least some of the cards.)
Mr. L wrote:
'I also don't buy the "Well, since they legalized Hold-'em and 7-card Stud in California, everybody plays there" argument. Otherwise, Atlantic City and the various other venues around the country would never have opened card rooms.'
I really don't think this argument makes sense. When CA legalized HE and stud, Vegas was hit real hard because lots (most?) of its poker-playing tourists came from California. Atlantic City is largely fed by states that don't allow cardrooms. Legalized poker in California barely affects AC.
Mr. L,
You write : I played at the Holland Casino in Amsterdam, where a rake per pot of around $8-$12 was not uncommon, and in a $6 & $12 game! But I didn't mind. I made $2,000 that night. As far as I know, that game is still going.
I cancelled a proposed poker playing trip to a European city when I found out about the high time rake. The money I "saved" is more than enough to pay for a return airline ticket to Las Vegas. And I don't have to recalculate my starting hand requirements.
Etienne
Mr. L,
Gouging is gouging so I don't think that the argument of the European casino rakes is valid. I take your point to be that having the cardrooms show better profits is in the long term interest of poker players and I agree that this is true. I believe that card rooms that attract a regular clientele and keep a good variety of games going actually do well. The casino where I have done most of my playing in the last three years has had a poker room since it's inception. I honestly believe that if poker was not doing well for this casino it would have closed a long time ago. The poker room takes up a fair amount of floor space as well. There is a good base of regular customers who seem to keep the games in the room fairly full. The rakes are reasonable in this room (similar to the Mirage) as there isn't much competition for this room. I think higher rakes would hurt this room more than help it by the way. The Mirage has a thriving poker room and I know that the floor space taken up by the Mirage poker room must be highly valued. I just can't help but think that the Mirage management must be pleased with the contribution the poker room makes to its bottom line. Mason has written an excellent essay about the situation regarding the player charges in California that can be read by going to the essays area of this site.
Tom Haley
Yes, I have read Mr. Malmuth's Essays.
I am very happy that you are comfortable with your favorite Poker Room's expected continued existence. But that touches the point I was trying to make. Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE your Poker Room will be there tomorrow or next week or next month, or a year from now? And if your room were to close, would another take its place?
All you need to do is check the other postings on this web site. Did you ever, in your wildest dreams, consider that Binion's would downsize its Poker Room? There is even talk about discontinuing the WSOP (pretty much a discredited rumor at this point.)
There are other examples:
Ceasar's Bally's Treasure Island is the most recent in my memory. There, one could find a pot limit game regularly. Every time I went there, it was busy. Jackpots galore, good room management, comfortable location, and free tableside food at times (almost unheard of in Las Vegas!) Then, on very short notice, it closed!
So, my point goes back to the original question. Would Poker players stand for a slight increase in the rake, if it meant more choices for games and places to play?
Mr. L,
>>I am very happy that you are comfortable with your favorite Poker Room's expected continued existence. But that touches the point I was trying to make. Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE your Poker Room will be there tomorrow or next week or next month, or a year from now? And if your room were to close, would another take its place? <<
Yes, I am ABSOLUTELY SURE.
>> All you need to do is check the other postings on this web site. Did you ever, in your wildest dreams, consider that Binion's would downsize its Poker Room? There is even talk about discontinuing the WSOP (pretty much a discredited rumor at this point.)<<
I always thought the Horseshoe had a well run poker room. I really don't know what is going on with their poker room with the new ownership. I will say that the Horseshoe seldom had a full room when I was there although it was far from being empty. Perhaps some of the other participants could offer some reasons why it was not full a lot more. Have you checked out all the stories on the internet describing how badly the Horseshoe has been doing the past several years? That place has got so many slot machines it's hard to get around the casino. If they were full all the time they would be making a mint but obviously they are not. I think it's interesting that the Mirage has no tournament poker whatsoever and the room is thriving.
>>Ceasar's Bally's Treasure Island is the most recent in my memory. There, one could find a pot limit game regularly. Every time I went there, it was busy. Jackpots galore, good room management, comfortable location, and free tableside food at times (almost unheard of in Las Vegas!) Then, on very short notice, it closed!<<
Is that three casinos or one casino? I am assuming it is three. I heard that Ceasar's was a poorly run poker room meaning that they didn't cater to regulars. I am not sure about what happened at Bally's or Treasure Island. Maybe spreading pot limit was part of the problem.
>>So, my point goes back to the original question. Would Poker players stand for a slight increase in the rake, if it meant more choices for games and places to play? <<
I am not opposed to an increase if it is justified. However, I've heard estimates that a poker table brings in between $75 and $100 dollars an hour. If it is in operation 24 hours a day, 365 days a year that means that it will bring in between $657,000 and $875,000 dollars a year. O.k. not every table is going to be full 24 hours a day, 365 days a year but still the potential for making a lot of money off an individual table is pretty good. I know the potential from slots is better but I'll go back to my point and say that even though the Mirage slot business seems to be good, they must like the drop in their poker room as well.
Poker rooms are being closed in Las Vegas and there is good reason for it. What is happening is that the casinos are getting too expensive. One of the new ones will cost $2 billion when it is completed. This means that for a poker room to be successful it must have a spill over effect into the rest of the casino. That is it must attract some players who give significant action to the rest of the casino.
The Rio recently closed its poker room. I believe that the largest bet that you could make (in that room) was $8. (Yet the Rio is one of the new Las Vegas mega resorts and it will soon double in size.) Where was the spill over action? I now believe that for poker rooms to survive in Las Vegas they need to get rid of most of their little games. It's true that a $1-$5 game may drop close to $100 an hour, but these aren't the people that an expensive casino needs. A $40-$80 game which only colects $80 an hour is clearly much better for the casino since many people who come to Vegas to play this game have the resources to fire away in the pit.
A $1-5 game drops up to $100 an hour? I guess this is true since they sometimes take 10% up to $5 but it's a little surprising. At poker clubs in the Bay Area you get raked about $50/hour for a full table at a 2-4 game and maybe $65/hour for a full 3-6 game. Perhaps Vegas' reputation as a place where the rake is lower for poker than California rooms is false.
Mason,
I'm not convinced the spillover effect is necessary. Having significant others and friends who play other games is very helpful I would guess. Vegas is also over built right now according to industry analysts. Casino's are very expensive to build (if you want to compete in Vegas) and thus hotel rooms costs are high. I am also sure that someone who is paying $150 dollars a night to stay at a hotel is not going to be very interested in a $1-5 7 stud game.
Speaking of $1-5 7 stud games. I think these games are not as good for the card room as they appear to be. The structure encourages tight play and you will see many very small pots where the dealer doesn't even bother taking anything and if the dealer does it is not the full rake. They have them where I play and there are a few regulars. I just think in the long run they would get a lot more action if they promoted higher limit 7 stud games with an ante.
Tom Haley
One problem that I have with these analyses is that those casinos w/o low spreads don't have any break-in point for "low" rollers... and part of the success of any casino, I believe, is migrating people up the bet scale.
Not knowing a lot (besides personal playing experience) about casino management in general (and Vegas in particular- I was only fortunate enough to visit once so far), my comments may be incorrect, but...
Low rollers, who would be attracted to 1-5 7s, 2-4 HE, etc are the ones who probably also have potential to move up on the floor/slots. I doubt that the higher end casinos only have tables that start at $50, or slots at $5 (unless they were TRULY geared towards high-end players only!)
I would assume that the bigger, $2bill palaces are going to HAVE to have volume, of all kinds, in order to survive, correct? Do you believe that any place, much less a high-cost castle, will be able to survive on JUST high-roller traffic? Will the non-casino staff (waitresses, doormen, etc) get enough to make the job worth the investment? Etc... etc..
Spillover is important, I assume, but can a casino survive on only high-roller spillover, if there is no low-roller spillover also for the gaps? Plus, some low-rollers become mid-rollers- isn't the casino looking for them also?
In addition, poker players that get intro'd and go broke at mid-high poker limits ($40-80 implies at least $3-4K for a sit-down stake, doesn't it?) may not come back (to poker OR the casino). I'm surprised you didn't take this tack, Mason, as you've talked about the dangers inherent in no-limit/pot-limit games for room survival... is this much different?
I would assume (see the disclaimer above!) that most poker rooms get bumped for slots because the ROSF (return-on-square-footage) and ROLI (r-o-labor-investment) is not only better, but easier to get away with tweaking without getting "caught" by the customers....plus, locked in profits may be higher
One solution- poker players SHOULD play the floor and video poker sometimes....AND make sure they use comp cards, to "prove" that is carryover. Play the best games, play the best styles, but show that you DO give the casino more than a "headache" and lower ROSF....
Mason, comments?
>>One problem that I have with these analyses is that those casinos w/o low spreads don't have any break-in point for "low" rollers... and part of the success of any casino, I believe, is migrating people up the bet scale. <<
Actually the Mirage does have $1-5 stud and $3-6 hold'em game. I agree with your point. Where I play the stud is almost all $1-5 and sometimes $2-10 with no ante as the low card brings it in for $1 in the 1-5 and $2 in the 2-10. My complaint is about the structure of these stud games. They encourage tight play (small pots) imo. I would rather see the entry level stud game be sturctured and have an ante. Perhaps $3-6 with a $0.50 ante (I know the ante might be a little high for this limit).
>>Not knowing a lot (besides personal playing experience) about casino management in general (and Vegas in particular- I was only fortunate enough to visit once so far), my comments may be incorrect, but...
Low rollers, who would be attracted to 1-5 7s, 2-4 HE, etc are the ones who probably also have potential to move up on the floor/slots. I doubt that the higher end casinos only have tables that start at $50, or slots at $5 (unless they were TRULY geared towards high-end players only!)<<
Actually I think this is pretty much in line with the thinking at most Vegas casinos. My point is that regular poker players aren't all that interested in the slots and the table games. I know some players that actually do play the slots sometimes but these few that I know put in a lot more action at the poker table. Imo most regular poker players don't give the casino much of an edge if any when the play 21 and they don't give the casino much of an edge when they play craps. Most regular poker players that I know do not play the table games and the slots. The focus of the poker rooms should be to encourage regular poker players to return day after day. Imo the casinos should not be very concerned about the action that poker players give in the pits. Focus on poker as a money making enterprise. Hey they might find their way over to the sports book.
>>I would assume that the bigger, $2bill palaces are going to HAVE to have volume, of all kinds, in order to survive, correct? Do you believe that any place, much less a high-cost castle, will be able to survive on JUST high-roller traffic? Will the non-casino staff (waitresses, doormen, etc) get enough to make the job worth the investment? Etc... etc..<<
Time will tell. Vegas has done very well so the supply has met or exceeded the demand so far. A lot of people go to Vegas for other reasons than gambling. It is quite a spectacle. The revenue generated from non-gambling sources has become very important for the casinos. There are a lot of new places being built so the supply of casino entertainment is increasing.
>>Spillover is important, I assume, but can a casino survive on only high-roller spillover, if there is no low-roller spillover also for the gaps?<<
I don't think spillover from poker players means very much to the casinos bottom line.
>>Plus, some low-rollers become mid-rollers- isn't the casino looking for them also?<<
Yes imo.
>>In addition, poker players that get intro'd and go broke at mid-high poker limits ($40-80 implies at least $3-4K for a sit-down stake, doesn't it?) may not come back (to poker ORthe casino). I'm surprised you didn't take this tack, Mason, as you've talked about the dangers inherent in no-limit/pot-limit games for room survival... is this much different?<<
This is why I think that the spillover effect for poker players is not that important. If you get busted at the $40-80 game at the Mirage you can drop down a long way and play cheaper.
>>I would assume (see the disclaimer above!) that most poker rooms get bumped for slots because the OSF return-square-footage) and ROLI (r-o-labor-investment) is not only better, but easier to get away with tweaking without getting "caught" by the customers....plus, locked in profits may be higher<<
That's the theory. As long as the slots are played enough this is true. Again imo most regular poker players aren't interested in playing slots so their business was never lost.
>>One solution- poker players SHOULD play the floor and video poker sometimes....AND make sure they use comp cards, to "prove" that is carryover. Play the best games, play the best styles, but show that you DO give the casino more than a "headache" and lower ROSF....<<
I don't think that this will have a major effect on the casinos and their decision to spread poker games but maybe.
>>Mason, comments?<<
"This is why I think that the spillover effect for poker players is not that important. If you get busted at the $40-80 game at the Mirage you can drop down a long way and play cheaper"
Tom, the question becomes, as Mason implied as a casino solution, what happens if all of the lower poker games are removed???
The other problem with what you said (putting my pseudo-casino manager hat on), is that unless one of the following is true, poker rooms may NOT be a good venue for casinos: a) is the poker room pulling in more per hour/day/year than slots would, or table games? b) am I seeing enough spillover into other games, where my casino can win the money instead of other players, to justify the lost ROSF that a poker room represents?
(again, I don't know if that ROSF statement is true or not...)
Easy E,
>>Tom, the question becomes, as Mason implied as a casino solution, what happens if all of the lower poker games are removed???<<
I am not in favor of eliminating the lower limit games. I think they are good. I like to see a variety of limits and games.
>>The other problem with what you said (putting my pseudo-casino manager hat on), is that unless one of the following is true, poker rooms may NOT be a good venue for casinos: a) is the poker room pulling in more per hour/day/year than slots would, or table games? b) am I seeing enough spillover into other games, where my casino can win the money instead of other players, to justify the lost ROSF that a poker room represents?
(again, I don't know if that ROSF statement is true or not...) <<
I dont think the ROSF statement is necessarily true. I say this for the following reasons which I concede are certainly open to debate:
1) To me there seems to be an over supply of slots.
2) I don't think regular poker players offer a lot of profit potential in table games because when they play the table games they tend to make the bets that offer them the best odds like playing basic strategy in 21 or taking and laying the odds in craps. Also some may count cards and actually provide a -Ev situation for the casino.
3) Regular poker players tend to be long term customers as I believe a short term mentality often exists in casino management. In other words I believe that casino management doesn't consider the long term implications of their decisions often enough. More succinctly, they're too greedy.
Tom Haley
That is an EXTREMELY good point, Mr. Malmuth, and is exactly the sort of answer for which I was looking when I started this thread. Thank you!
So why did Caesar's, Ballys, and TI close there poker rooms. First, when the Mirage opened everyone went there to play and Caesar's and Bally's lost all their business overnight. Both of these rooms went from being full to having absolutely no games, so they were closed.
TI never really had a chance. The room was poorly located and never did very well. I never saw it more than half full, so it closed.
I guess that supports the "finite number of players" theory.
But, as I recall, the Ceasar's Poker Room did not close overnight. It stayed open for a while, and was atrractive, IMHO, since if one could not find a seat in the game at the Mirage, one could take the short walk/walkway ride over to Ceasar's (and vice versa). And Bally's was not all that far away, either.
Bally's also stayed open for a time after the Mirage opened. But I remember a particularly irksome comment from the room manager there who justified the shrinkage of the room (months before its closing) as being of a "size to best accommodate the demand," i.e., with no growth possible.
I didn't play in the TI often enough to have an opinion, but the times I was there, I felt comfortable.
I've only been playing poker in LV for the last three years so I can't comment on anything prior to that. But, from my personal experience the last three years I can say that I prefer the Mirage to any other cardroom in town for several reasons.
First, IMHO it is the best run room in town handsdown.
Second, the rake is very reasonable. I'd be willing to pay a higher rake to play there.
Third, it's size and number of tables means the wait is usually not long. The brushes do an excellent job of working down the list and seating players.
Fourth, and perhaps most importantly, I believe the games are better from the standpoint that at the lower limit games there are more "live" players. e.g. gamblers and/or people new to poker who are the ones I want to be playing against for the profit potential.
In the smaller cardrooms I have played in (e.g. Flamingo, Excalibur, Stardust, TI) most of the players seemed to be regulars. I don't want to be the only guy at the table who doesn't know everyone else and who plays just as tight as everyone else. Phulease give me a 3-6 or 6-12 game that has a few "players" willing to drop a few hundred before taking the wife to see Seigfreid & Roy.
Regards,
Leigh Davis
Let me offer a response in the guise of my being an occasional, recreational player: I don't mind that $3 is raked out of each pot over $30 in the little 2-5 spread limit HE games I play in. If I play 12 hours per month, and win two pots per hour, I think that chipping in $72 to the casino, (money I don't even notice is removed from the pots) in order to promote the continuance of a nice room with dealers, amenities, and an always available game, then it's a small price to pay. I only play because it's fun, and because I like to play. My thoughts on the matter might be different if I were trying to earn an income from poker and saw the rake as cutting into my "bottom line".
Would I play if the only option was having the pot raked $4 or $5? Yes! Again, the main thing to me at the present time is that a poker game be available when I have the opportunity to play. Certainly, if two comparable rooms had different rakes, I would probably play at the club with the lower rake. (Particularly if it were less smoky).
FWIW, I also toke the dealers at what some poker veterans would consider to be an absurdly high rate. Big deal! I'm playing and having fun once or twice a month.
Respectfully, Dan Radosevich
OTOH, if I played HE in a casino where there was a "time charge" rather than a raked pot, I would be much more sensitive to the amount that the house was collecting from me. Probably because the drop from my stack would be more obvious and relentless. I like the idea of only paying the house when I'm playing and winning.
Rrepsectfully, Dan Radosevich
What I believe to be even worse than a time charge is the so-called "collection" that I've seen at the Bicycle Club and Commerce Club in SoCal. At the Bike, for a full table of 3-6 HE, the small blind pays $3.50, and at the Commerce, the button pays $3.00. And these do not count as any portion of a bet--i.e. they are not considered blinds. So the "small blind" at the Bike isn't even really a blind--he has no bet in before the deal (anyone care to ponder how that changes the game dynamics?). So if the average is about 4 rounds per hour, that means I have to pay $12-14/hour just to sit and not even be in a pot! So my hourly rate has to be at least $12/hour just to break even! In a 3-6 game, I would imagine that $12/hour would be a significant bite out of anyone's hourly rate. Is there something wrong with my reasoning? Until someone proves me different, I'm going to stick to playing at the San Manuel ($2 max house rake, $1 jackpot).
I would think that in a $3-$6 game four rounds per hour is a little high, but your point is well taken. At this rate which is approximately $100 per hour coming off the table, and you are not counting tips, it will be difficult for the cardroom to develop a core of small limit players who start games and keep the games going. I know that years ago the Bike use to employ "baby props," whose highest limit was $5-$10. I don't know what they do today.
Dan writes:
Would I play if the only option was having the pot raked $4 or $5? Yes! Again, the main thing to me at the present time is that a poker game be available when I have the opportunity to play.
If your regular game were raked at $5/hand, there's a good chance it would cease to be available.
>Jim writes:
>If your regular game were raked at $5/hand, there's a good >chance it would cease to be available.
Jim: You very well may be correct. Especially if the "same old group of locals" pays the rake the vast majority of the time. If their clique is only occasionally broached by an interloper like myself, offering *a hope* of new money, the house will eventually end up with all their money, whether the rake is $3 or $5.
I trust that the poker room will find the rake that supports itself, but doesn't kill the proverbial "Golden Goose".
ESPN will be airing the WSOP at 9:30pm west coast time, tonight, 7/11/98. That's an hour from now. FYI.
Can anyone recommend a good Omaha book? I plan to get Ray Zee's book, but I'm not advanced yet and am looking for a good starting point.
Omaha Hi-Low Poker by Shane Smith. There is no better starting out book I know of. Not for novice poker players, just novice Omaha players.
Thanks. I'll check it out.
That WSOP was one of the most entertaining one's I've seen. The two playing head-to-head was enjoyable, especially the bathroom break and the arrogance (probably deserved) of Nguyen. Fun to watch. Let's hope it continues, if not at Binion's, somewhere in California or Vegas.
Is the AC Trop Saturday afternoon $40 stud h/l tournament worth playing?
I think the Hi/Lo is Sun or Mon. The only tourney on Sat is the club championship on the last Sat of the month-Invite only. Whatever day it's on, it's worth playing. The Trop has a tourney everyday, and they do an excellent job running them. The Tue night stud tournament has been selling out.
Do they have Hold'em tourneys at the Trop?
YES! Wed at 4:15 is a 60$ buy in, 300 in chips. 1st three Fridays of the month 115$ buy in, 500 in chips. Last Friday of the month 200$ buy in. Fridays tourney also starts at 4:15. Tournament turn out has been good. The tournaments are well run. Hope to see you there. Good Luck Danny H
Thought I'd talk about how Casino paranoia costs themselfs money.
I was just learning how to count last year in October, and was playing a Double Deck at Harvey's Lake Tahoe. I was doing all the typical beginning counter moves while playing Red Chips with the Hiopt1 count. I was OVER tipping the Dealer. I didn't use any strategy moves. The only thing that I was doing was betting a 1-4 spread and Taking insurance.
Well I took Insurance with a Hard 13 while having 4 red chips on the table, and won the Insurance Bet. The next thing I knew the Pretty Young Dealer was replaced with a Fat Old Witch. The Young Dealer looked very suprized at being pushed out of the game. I thought something was up, but kept playing. The next Deck when the count went Positive I did my usual: Double the bet with a 50cent Bet for the dealer. The Witch looked at me and my bet then Shuffled up. I saw what was going on now! I was caught and was getting the Back off. I picked up my Chips and left to play some Poker.
So the Casino successfully backed of a losing counter. I'm smarter for that experience. Thanks Harvey's.
CV
I don't know much about counting, but I have put some thought into controlling my opponents. Perhaps what one should do in this situation is increase their bets everytime the deck goes bad, that way you only play decks that are even or better.
More counters than just I have been able to do exactly that. There are (or at least there were, I don't really play BJ anymore) many clubs that don't really try to monitor counting per se, but will shuffle up everytime a player increases their bet. Against these clubs, just flat bet while the deck is even or positive, and bet more if the deck is negative. The nice thing about this is that you NEVER have to bet when the house has the edge.
Here's a strategy I used in a downtown club, single deck game. Start with a $5 bet. As soon as the deck gets negative, make it $10. The dealer shuffles. Keep betting $10 until the deck gets negative (which may be after the first deal), and then bet $20. Next time, go to $30, then $40, then $50. Since I didn't want to bet more than $50, I would go to the bathroom the next time the count was negative, and then start betting $5 again when I returned. Or, instead of going to the bathroom too often, I would just start betting $5 again at the start of a new deck.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
JP Massar informed me and a few others via email that Andy Morton died in a motorcycle accident in Colorado; the funeral will be in Pittsburgh later this week. Andy had posted occasionally to the 2+2 Forum and to the rec.gambling.poker newsgroup. Another place you may know him from is the 10-20 through 40-80 Hold'em games in LA, especially Hollywood Park and the Normandie (board initials "AGM"). He was a close friend of mine. JP, Lee Jones, myself and others are trying to find ways to console his family and honor Andy's memory, perhaps with a moment and a card to sign at the rec.gambling.poker BARGE convention, and perhaps something in the Card Player. Further details will likely be posted on rec.gambling.poker.
I don't play many tournement. However, here's my question. I played in a $55 buy-in freeze out tournement last week. For that you were given $500 in chips with the offer to add on $50 for an additional $2. We were told this money went to the dealers tips. Once half the field was eliminated, the remaining players were then paid $50 and we then played for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place money. First paid $200, 2nd $120 and third $80. Only 16 players. Since $32 was already paid to dealers tips (everyone added on) what would be the proper tip for 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Thanks.
Andy Morton died early morning Friday, July 17th, 1998 in a head-on motorcycle crash with an automobile in Colorado. He was on an extended ride from Los Angeles with his motorcycle buddies.
Andy was a well known RGP and 2+2 Forum contributor, and many of us reading this knew him personally.
Of all Andy's interests, his two great loves were talking and playing poker, and motorcycle riding.
Many a time in the last year you might have found Andy and I walking on the pedestrian/bike path along Redondo, Hermosa and Manhattan Beaches, engrossed in discussions about the intricacies of game theory, check-raises, bankrolls, bluffs and Xena, Warrior Princess.
Andy graduated with a PhD in biochemistry, but becoming disenchanted with academic life, left to become an itinerant poker player. In his beat up car he toured the country, living off his bankroll, gaining experience and working his way up the Hold 'em stakes ladder.
When he arrived in Los Angeles in January 1997 he decided to stay in one place for a while, and settled in for a time as a professional poker player, playing the higher limit games mainly at Hollywood Park and the Normandie, where he was well known.
Andy may perhaps be remembered into the future as the author of "Morton's Theorem", a mathematical demonstration of the consequences of a counterintuitive multi-handed poker scenario, which he developed with Abdul Jalib. Perhaps Abdul could repost it in his memory.
Andy was the quintessential scientist: Always questioning, never willing to accept without reason accepted theories and advice; always exploring new and interesting avenues of poker theory and life.
Andy was a very good friend, and I will miss him muchly.
How are the Hold'em games at the Mirage since the Horseshoe is rumored to be closing their poker room. Are the games tougher because the pros from the Horseshoe are plaing there? How have the games been during the Orleans tournement?
I play 10/20 and 20/40 hold'em.
thanks in advance.
I refuse to play at the Orleans tournament anymore but when I did the side action sucked and I just took the shuttle to the Mirage. The games were always pretty good during this tournament. There seemed to be a lot of people in town.
The HE games at the Mirage are great at the 10-20, 20-40 level. Lots of the Horseshoe regulars are very welcome additions to the games.
Weekends are better than weekdays, but the weekdays certainly aren't bad.
I'm going to the Orleans today for the first time, I'll report anything significant.
Both the $40-$80 hold 'em and stud games were also very good over the weekend.
I talked to the acting manager of the Horseshoe Today. (Jim Albrecht is on sick leave due to some surgery. He still has the job.) I was told that the room would remain open and that the 14 tables will stay but that the comp policy would tighten up. I consider this good news.
First I was worried that if I wrote this Post I would let everyone in on a nicely kept secret, but I think that most people won't try this technique. At least that is what I've found with the people I work with, friends, and Relatives. It gos against a majority of traditional memory systems (ie. Boring Repetition). I think most people don't try this Technique because: A) Public Schools don't teach it. B) To learn it the individual has to accept change. This Memory Technique works well with any information that needs to be memorised. It works especially well with Numbers and Cards. You can see why Card Counters and Poker players should be particularly interested in trying it.
Anyway, my discovery is that it is Humanly possible to keep track of every card in a 52 card deck. Fact: I've been working with this system for 2 weeks now and I can; Deal out a whole Deck once and be able to tell you exactly the order in which I saw the cards; I can also go through a deck execpt for 10 cards and be able to tell which I haven't seen yet.
The secret is giving each card its very own Picture word. 2s= "Sun", 9h= "Hoop"..... Once you give a Card a Tangible name, your brain can easily remember the information.
This system also works well for Strategy numbers. The High/Low -20 to +20 Index is a snap now. Even remembering all the deviations from Single Deck H17 to Multideck S17 can be memorized with little effort and be exactly right. No more writing and rewriting Grids of meaningless numbers.
Seems to good to be true! It works and I'm not trying to sell anyone anything! I guess my main drive for telling everyone about it is that it should truely be helpful to people not yet experts at Card Counting, Stud Poker, Gin, or any other game that involves the quick memorization of a Deck of Cards. Maybe this will take counting a Single Deck to new levels.
The big problem most of us have is, we were never taught how to use our Brains properly.
If anyone is interested in learning these advanced Memory Techniques read: "Use Your Perfect Memory" by Tony Buzan; or "The Memory Book" by Harry Lorayne and Jerry Lucas. Both books are similar, Tony Buzan is very knowledgeable in the Field of Memory, but Harry Lorayne has a better Essay about Card Memorisation.
You will be suprized at what your Brain can do when its properly trained. I wish I would have known about this when I was still in High School.
Also, Dominic O'Brien, who holds the World Record for Speed Cards, (an event where the competitors are timed in the memorisation of a single shuffled pack of 52 playing cards) uses these memory Techniques. He memorized a complete pack of cards in less than 39 seconds.
CV
I have read the chapter in the Lucas book about card memorization and I got the impression that it would be rather difficult to implement in a 7-card stud game. Have you used it successfully while playing 7CS? Perhaps I was too quick to dismiss it's potential usefulness. I would be interested in any comments you have regarding using it in a "real life" poker situation.
The Key to the System's success is in complete memorization of the "Picture Words". If you can look at the 10h and immideatly tell me its Picture word is "Hose" you can then "Mutilate" it and when you think of that card later on in the hand you will remember that its Mutilated in some way. Maybe you set it on Fire or Froze it. If you think of a card that hasn't been played you will see it non-Mutilated. There are many ways to use the "Picture Word" information so be creative. You could use the "Peg" system also.
CV
this is Harry Lorains Memory Power.....It's excellent for increasing memory It's also one of the best investments I've made for playing cards. I would suggest to anyone to bye his program
Forum readers!
I am looking for a furnished apartment/suite for one person which is available on a weekly basis for a period that could be anywhere from 1 month and upwards. I have normally stayed at the Mirage, TI or Desert Inn on my trips to LV, and even though they all have excellent amenities and service, this time I want to establish a "home away from home" without having to walk through 427 acres of slots, restuarants and lush, tropical jungle to get to my room, if you know what I mean.
My main requirements are :
(1) Close proximity to the Mirage and other poker playing venues. I would also like to lose my tournament virginity, so the low buy-in, daily HE tourneys, wherever they happen to be would interest me.
(2) Good, safe location with adequate amenities. I've spoken to Studio Plaza apartments (which I'm not familiar with) - everything sounded OK, but when she told me it was a block and a half north of Charleston, that put me off a bit. Another place I called was Budget Suites on W. Tropicana, across from the Orleans. Is anyone familiar with this place? I presume the area is better than Studio Plaza, and the price (about $180 per week) and amenities sounded attractive.
I would appreciate any names and phone numbers, or alternative suggestions. Thanks.
Etienne
I've checked out the budget suites for friends. It's nice. Small but adequate. Some of my friends have stayed there for extended periods as well. It's always been just fine.
The BS on Paradise and Twain might be the closest. The phone number is 699-7000. I think it's about $750 per month with maid service
1. How often are pot-limit and no-limit games spread in Las Vegas? Can one find cheap big-bet games during "Carnival of Poker" in January?
2. In a 5-5-10 pot-limit Omaha or Hold'em game, what is usually the minimum buy-in?
3. What are the structures and minimum buy-ins for the lowest no-limit and pot-limit games in Vegas?
4. How well do people play in low-staked big-bet poker games, for example Omaha pot-limit?
5. Is Hold'em the only played form of no-limit poker in Las Vegas?
/David
David,
In small no and potlimit games the buyins are usually rounded up to either 50 or 100 dollars. In most games it is 40 times the big blind bet for the buy in. Many times they also will round it up to the nearest 500 or 1000 dollars. 55&10 is 500 buyin. 5 10 &25 is 1000. 1 2 &5 is 200 1&2 may be $20 or $40 or $50.
At most tournaments you can promote a pot limit game with small blinds. Either holdem or omaha. Some casinos have small buyin tounaments and small buyin games off and on.
Anyone knows where is 13 card chinese poker spread? In California or Nevada. Also, does anyone know of a good chinese poker strategy book?
thanks,
carlos
Carlos,
Check out the catelog at http://www.gamblersbook.com. See you at Desert Diamond.
Russ
Usually, I play hold 'em. Last week I sat down at a dealers choice table (HE, Omaha Hi, Pineapple). A situation came up that made me thiink I didn't know Omaha as well as I thought. I do know, 2 of your cards, 3 from the board. I guess I'm not sure about the role of kickers. I don't remember the exact cards the player had, or what was on he board, so I am making up a theoretical example. It involves trips. The player has A,J, 7,2. The board includes two jacks and some other cards. Does he have trips with an A kicker? The player seemed to think so. The lady who had chosen Omaha said he had to use two cards from his hand. The point became moot when another player (easily) beat trip jacks, so I never got to find out. I would have thought I had trip jacks too.
You are correct, he had three jacks with an ace kicker. The fifth card would be the highest board card other than the jacks.
Say the board looks like JJK56 and you hold AJ72 you would use the A and the J from your hand to make [AJ]JJK. If someone held QJ23, they would also have trip jacks but with a KQ kicker. So the first hand is better. However in that case if there is a possible flush on the board it is very likely that someone has 2 pair, trips and freerolling at a flush or already a made full house. So when the board pairs and all you have is trips with a good kicker you should be careful since there might be a few better hands than yours out there.
carlos
Thanks you both for the quick and informative replies. Good cards to both of you.
Where can I find this game that some of the players are not sure how to read their hands?
I am very solid in the high-low games. I can play holdem or stud at the level sufficient to beat 2-4 or 1-5. I would not be confident at a higher stud high game, since I have never played with an ante.
Which should be most profitable (at Foxwoods on Sunday):
5-10 Omaha-8
2-10 Stud H/L, no ante
1-5 Stud high, no ante
2-4 or 5-10 holdem
Would a $100 bankroll be enough? I figure that a smaller bankroll should be ok for H/L games, since they are slower and you win half a pot fairly often.
My question is what do you mean by bankroll? If you mean your entire bankroll, which, if you lose, will prevent you from playing at all, then $100. isn't enough at all. If you mean a session bankroll, which, if you lose, will send you home for the day, then $100. is fine, though you could easily lose this in an hour or less with some bad luck. If you want to play all day Sunday guaranteed, and you won't go on tilt if you lose more than $100., then I would recommend bringing at least $300. I have been stuck over $200. a couple of times in 3-6 HE, in games where I knew I was at least a $5/hour favorite.
For the 5-10 Omaha8 game, you could lose $300. in a few hours, even if you play tight. It's not that hard to pay a lot of money in Omaha8 while drawing to the nuts, and just not getting there for an hour or two.
Good Luck, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Play the 2-10 stud H/L.
3-6 Hold'em w/kill to 5-10 on Sunday is a reasonable choice. The 5-10 Omaha-8 early Sunday morning may exist to pick the pockets of some leftover Hold'em players trying to get even from the night before. 2-10 H/L Stud sometimes goes in the afternoon, and is played without an ante. There is always 1-5 Stud 50¢ ante around the clock. Low limit Hold'em begins about 9:30-10:00 Sunday mornings, and can last until around 4:30 Monday morning.
I have to go to Kansa City, Missouri, nex
Does anybody know if there is poker (casino, riverboat, or reservation) in the Kansas City, Missouri, area (within 30 miles).
Russ
I will be in K.C., Missouri, next week. Does anybody know if there is poker (casino, riverboat, or indian reservation) within the area.
Russ
There are casinos in Kansas City. Station Casino has poker.
Thanks,
Russ
I plan on making a trip to Vegas in about a month. I was wondering if anyone would recommend a place to stay for a pretty low price. I will only be using the room to sleep and will be out playing poker most of the time. All suggestions welcomed.
Thanks,
Dice
The California Hotel downtown has decent rooms and is cheap near Binions and the highway. Four Queens Fremont, just about any downtown hotel is inexspensive. I wouldn't stay off the strip b/c of safety. How about Excalibur,Goldcoast or Orleans
You might try Binion's (if you want to stay downtown) You can call them at 800-662-6468; ask for the poker room; they can help you. Usually the East Side of hotel is around $26 and the Tower is around 35 for poker rate.
For the Strip I would suggest either Harrah's (1st choice) or the Imperial Palace. Both are right accross the street from the Mirage&Caesar's. Contact Las Vegas Reservation Systems (www.lvrs.com) 800-233-5594 as they find the lowest room rates. I usually am able to get Harrah's for $35 per night (non-weekend) and IP $30 (non-weekend). The rates double or more, on Fri/Sat and certain conventions (ie Comdex, mid november).
I used to stay downtown, but now I stay on the Strip. There is more to see/do and the Mirage spreads plenty of games at all limits. There are other Strip hotels with Poker as well. As far as I know, only Binion's and the Plaza have Poker downtown.
Good luck
Tom
I'm pretty sure the 4 Queens has a poker room. Everywhere I play, it seems I see someone with a 4 Queens pker room jacket or hat.
No, they run a major tournament but don't have a room, just as the Horseshoe did for many years.
Las Vegas Reservation System is the only way to book. The rates are great especially midweek. Harrah's would be my number one choice as well. You can't beat the location (across the street from the Mirage) or the value. It's a big step up from the IP.
If you want something a little nicer in the same area then go to the Flamingo. If you want to stay at the Mirage just stay at TI and save $30 per night. If you don't care about price go for Caesar's. You can get fantastic rates at Bally's during the week but it is a VERY long walk to the Mirage cardroom.
If you are staying downtown I'd only recommend the Golden Nugget.
Regards,
Leigh Davis
Well if you don't care too much about whether the place is DECENT, there are dirt cheap rooms at the Gold Spike. They even have a poker table in the pit but I never see a game going on. They have another place called the El Cortez with a couple of tables of low limit stuf but I wouldn't recommend going there to anyone who is not familiar with Vegas.
Mason Malmuth claims to play 40-80 Hold'em, yet I never see him playing it. Why is this so? "Just curious."
I have watched him play $40-80 in A.C at the Taj. However this was awhile ago. But he did play.
Abdul,
I have seen him play $40-80 hold'em at the Mirage also.
Tom Haley
While much of his time is absorbed by his publishing business, Mason still plays a fair amount of poker. Last night,Saturday July 25th, he played both 40-80 Stud and Hold'Em at the Mirage.
I've seen Mason play 40-80 at the Mirage.
Well, in fact I have seen Mason playing 40-80 (as recently as last night, we played in the same game.) So, it was incredibly obnoxious for me to assert that Mason doesn't play 40-80, wasn't it? Yet Mason said the same thing about me in almost the exact same obnoxious wording after seeing me playing 40-80. I was merely trying to execute a "touche'".
Abdul,
I give up. Why are we supposed to care what he says about you unless he stated it on the forum? I really like your contributions to the forum and RGP. I can't speak for everyone else but I know that I am not the only person who reads your stuff and finds it very interesting. This is just a another way of saying that I believe a lot of participants on this forum think highly of you. Perhaps you are being overly sensitive to what other people are saying about you. If I feel that someone is being petty and obnoxious (I'm not taking sides mind you) then I try not to stoop to their level. Just some thoughts of mine.
Tom Haley
I propose a duel between Mason and Abdul to settle their feud. Not because it would prove anything, but rather because I would then be free to hit on the resultant widow, both of whom are something else.
I knew there was a reason David is my favorite poker author.
Maybe the book should be called "Hold'em *OF* Advanced Players"
I played 30-60 with him at the Horseshoe during the WSOP ...they had no 40-80, the biggest in the mid-limit game room.
The Foxwoods thread below got me thinking. I am relatively new to Casino poker. I spent six months reading/playing online and have played twice in a casino, both 8 hour sessions. I have been bringing $400 dollars, each time losing considerably LESS than half of my money. Is $400 a good bankroll for a days worth of Hold 'em? I hope to get good enough to move up to 6-12, then 10-20 and probably stay there unless I see a game that looks particularly good at a higher level. are session bankrolls proportional to the stakes, or does some factor change the bankroll requirements at different levels? How many session bankrolls make up a long term bank roll? Finally at 4-8, 6-12 and 10-20 what would the dollar per hour earnings be for a good player, and a great player? I am an experienced blackjack player, and now abouth the Standard Deviation Roller Coaster Ride that will be taken to arrive at the final $ph, if any other BJ/poker players have any thoughts on S.D. as they relate to both games, I would be interested in your thoughts.
Although I prefer to bring 15 buyins to any game I'm in, 10 is certainly an adequate number.
At higher stakes, winning players may find themselves walking more razor's edges, so that would tend to increase the necessary session bankroll.
For a player winning 1-1+ bets per hour with typical variance, a 300 unit bankroll should be sufficient for >95% chance of not going broke.
TPT has published some #'s in one of their books on expectancy for good / great players at various levels. Usually if you're great at a certain level, you move up til you're not great or playing the biggest game in the room. At 10-20, a good player should make $20/hr, and a great player in good games can average $30-40. Note that good and great are relative to that game. Usually a great 10-20 player will swim up to 20-40 if that's available, where he may or may not still be great.
For a comprehensive review of this subject, purchase Mason's Gambling Theory and Other Topics.
JG
Thanks for the answers, Jim. One clarification, (remember I'm new to poker), is 300 units small or big bets?
big.
It takes thousands of hours of play to become a "good" poker player. I suggest you put in the time before you move up. At this point you should be playing 2-4 or 3-6 maximum. If you move up you will be destroyed finanically as the players especially at 10-20 and up are very experienced. Some of these players may not be good players at that level but if you are loosing at the lower stakes you will loose even more at the higher stakes.
Thanks for the advice. Unfortunatley, 2-4 and 3-6 are not local options, 4-8 is the lowest available. So far, I'm not getting destroyed, I tend to do well until I get ahead, then I lose discipline, and of course money (although less than half of a session bankroll). I have taken a few weeks off to analyze why I do this. I think the adreneline rush gives me a false sense of invincibility. I am going to take breaks and use breathing exercises to combat this next time I play, which will probably be next weekend. AN experienced player who has played the room I play tells me once I master discipline, I should be able to move up to 6-12 as the game tends to be soft. I do plan to put in many hundred hours at least befor I try to play higher than that, except maybe as a learning experience if I've been on a hot streak and can afford it. Keep in mind, I'm not a pro, I have a job. I want to be the best player I can be, at BJ and poker, and hopefully someday spend a few years as a pro, but if I lose now, it's not like I won't eat. Again, thanks for the advice, I always appreciate it when people take the time to help a beginner.
Steve,
There are a couple of things that I would like to add to the discussion. If you are losing after you get ahead because you are playing looser just don’t loosen up that much. When I first started playing hold’em this was a problem that I had. When I got ahead I would loosen up too much by getting involved with hands that I had no business getting involved with even if the game was passive. Something like 7,5o would hit the muck when I started out but if I got ahead significantly I started playing this type of hand. In fact the best advice I could give you is try to be consistent on a day in and day out basis no matter how you are doing. There are things regarding how you should play when you are winning and losing that I don’t think you should worry about right now. It’s an old saw but it thinks it’s a useful old saw, concentrate on playing your best at all times.
In my opinion there isn’t that much difference between a $4-8 game and $6-12 game. You actually might want to try the slightly higher game because you probably would focus better and the extra money wouldn’t make you a weak-tight player. It seems to me by what you write that you are very thoughtful student of the game and for what ever my opinion is worth you half the kind of desire that is necessary to be a long time winner. Remember to enjoy the game as well.
Tom Haley
When I first started playing hold'em, I also had a tendency to lose much of the winnings that I had earned during a session. (I used these opportunities to "experiment" more than I should have.)
What helped me was setting a loss limit. Once I had won over $100, I would quit the game when my profits fell below half of my high-water mark. For instance, if I had bought-in for $100 and my stack had grown to $240, then I would quit if my experimenting caused my stack to drop below $170.
Since I enjoy playing poker, this loss limit gave me incentive to keep my experiments in check (so that my session could continue).
Once I had established the necessary discipline (or had learned the game well enough that experiments were no longer necessary), I found that I no longer needed to set these loss limits. In general, I feel loss and win limits should be avoided, but there are situations when they are useful.
A major problem with setting loss linits is that it puts you in a tournament mode. Here's an example. Suppose the blind is going to be $10, it will be the next hand, and you are only $5 from your loss limit. Does this mean that you will play any two cards.
My advice is if you think that you are experimenting too much not experiment as much. If you can't do that, then poker may not be for you. This is also where doing a lot of thinking away from the table can help. If you think through your experiments a head of time you may be able to see which ones are beneficial and which ones are not.
Mason, you wrote, "A major problem with setting loss linits is that it puts you in a tournament mode. Here's an example. Suppose the blind is going to be $10, it will be the next hand, and you are only $5 from your loss limit. Does this mean that you will play any two cards."
If I understand you correctly, the strategy you are criticizing arises only if a player reaches their loss limit when their stack is completely gone. For example, I buy-in for $100, lose that money, rebuy one last time for another $100, and rigidly resolve to quit the game only if I lose all of that second hundred dollars. In this case, your point is valid.
But, nothing prevents me from quitting a game before reaching my loss limit. If I decide not to play past midnight because I have to work tomorrow, I'm unlikely to quit exactly on the hour. If the big blind reaches me at 11:55, I'm going to cash in my chips a little early. Similarly, if I ever decided to use an all-in loss limit, I would walk away with that last $5 chip rather than play the $10 blind with two random cards.
Even if one foolishly elected to go all-in as a blind, I'm not sure I would classify this as a "major problem." In your example, this error would cost the player less than 0.25 big bets (assuming the $10 blind is the big blind). If certain players in certain circumstances decide not to use loss limits, they could lose considerably more than this amount.
Furthermore, not all loss limits operate the way you describe. An alternative version of the above loss limit system would be to buy-in for $400 and quit if one's stack drops to $200 or less. This avoids the "tournament mode" problem. Of course, one usually will lose more than $200 when the loss limit is reached using this alternative method. If this is a concern, one might want to change their loss limit to, say, $175.
Please note that the loss limit strategy I offered for Steve's consideration also avoids this "tournament mode" problem. That strategy comes into effect only after a player has made a reasonable profit during a session (e.g., $100 in a $5-10 game). I tried to clarify this strategy with an example. In that example, the player's stack once had reached $240 ($100 buy-in + $140 profit), so the player would quit the game if their stack fell below $170 ($100 buy-in + $70 profit). I should add that this amount can ratchet upward. If the player's stack increases to $260, then they should quit if their stack falls below $180. Also, there is nothing magical about preserving nearly 50 percent of one's profits. That figure worked well for me. Others might prefer a different number (e.g., 25 or 75 percent).
> My advice is if you think that you are experimenting too
> much not experiment as much.
I always appreciate good advice, even if it isn't particularly profound.
> If you can't do that, then poker may not be for you.
It might, or it might not. It depends on how serious my leak was, how good the rest of my game was, whether I could fix this problem, and what my poker goals were. If everyone with a flaw in their game gave up poker, all the cardrooms would be empty. But some players win money with their imperfect skills. Others lose money overall but find the entertainment worth the cost.
In my case, I still earned a profit each month, even when I was experimenting excessively. Giving up the game seemed a little drastic. Instead, I opted to fix this leak. The question, of course, was how. Mason offers a reasonable suggestion...
> This is also where doing a lot of thinking away from the
> table can help.
I did this. Before I first entered a cardroom, I read books, magazine articles, and RGP newsgroup posts. I played Turbo Texas Hold'em, IRC poker (against human opponents on the Internet for etherbucks), and inexpensive home games. Perhaps most importantly, I discussed poker with a knowledgeable friend who also was serious about the game.
If I hadn't done all this, I'm sure I would have experimented much more at the cardroom tables. Despite all this thinking, however, I still experimented more than I should have after I made a nice profit during a session. Maybe I needed to do something in addition to thinking away from the table. That's when I came up with the loss limit strategy I described in the earlier post. It worked for me.
Perhaps Steve can plug his leak simply by thinking more about poker away from the table. Mason's advice is good, and I hope it solves Steve's problem. If it doesn't entirely stop his leak, however, Steve might be open to additional ideas. That is why I offered a loss limit strategy for his consideration. It might help him, or it might not.
This forum allows readers to receive several suggestions and pick the one(s) most likely to meet their particular needs.
Mike wrote, "It takes thousands of hours of play to become a "good" poker player. I suggest you put in the time before you move up."
There is no fixed amount of time required to become a good poker player; some learn faster than others. How quickly you learn depends on how hard you study the game (you do read poker books, don't you?), how intelligent you are, how much "natural" poker talent you have, how seriously you play the game, how well you read your opponents, how much you learn from your hours of experience, and many other factors.
Some people will move up to the $X-2X level when they have earned a $600X poker bankroll at the lower-limit games. This isn't a perfect rule of thumb either, but it's probably better than a rule that prevents you from moving up until you have put in a fixed number of hours at the tables.
I propose a $100,000 no-limit freeze out between these two men to settle the score. I also propose that it should be shown on E! channel. I also propose that the winner should play me in a $200,000 no-limit freeze out under tourny conditions. I also propose that someone on this forum loan me $200,000!
Predator,
Go see the Power Ball winner they have a little extra cash now something like $161 million in a lump sum payout which they opted for.
Tom Haley
It’s been pretty hard not to notice the jackpot for Power Ball. I don’t read the papers that often or watch TV news very much but I still felt bombarded with information about this lottery. I live in New Mexico (actually I’m temporarily living in Oklahoma) and when the issue of the legality of Indian Casinos was being debated in New Mexico, many gambling opponents came out of the woodwork to espouse the evils of gambling. One of their main points was that casino gambling had a negative impact on the local economy rather than a positive impact. I often wondered how casino gambling would have a negative impact in a state that had legalized gambling in the form of horse racing and a lottery. Not to mention a lot of other illegal ways to gamble that seemed very accessible. Put private poker games into the mix and I think that gambling was a lively activity long before casinos came to New Mexico.
I’ve always gotten the impression that the media was down on casino gaming. When this Power Ball lottery comes along with its enormous jackpot it seems like the media is actually hyping it and using it to make money for their own interests. In other words the media is endorsing the lottery thus endorsing gambling. I guess a lot of people in the media approve of playing a total sucker game. Yeah I know the Power Ball lottery can be +EV and I am not against people playing it. What I am against is the hypocrisy of casino gaming opponents. Another thing that I have noticed that the anti-gambling folks have been very silent about this lottery. Apparently they approve of the lottery as a form of gambling as well.
I haven’t seen any data regarding the lottery and it’s economic impact on the poor but I would bet that poor people spend a lot more of their income proportionally in playing the lottery than middle class people or wealthy people. It is their money and their business. However I don’t want to hear a bunch of pandering from politicians and baloney from the media telling me how we’ve all got to sacrifice and help people that are less fortunate. I’m NOT against helping people who need it. However, the lottery is intended to be another revenue source for government to provide more services to its citizens. If I am right and poor people are spending proportionately more on the lottery than other income groups, they are contributing more than their share to the government programs that are funded by the lottery that are intended to help them! Wouldn’t it be better and more efficient if poor people didn’t have a lottery to blow their money on and kept it all for themselves? In other words wouldn’t it be better to eliminate the middle man namely the government? I used to get really mad when I would hear the anti-gaming forces, the media, and politicians denouncing casino gaming. I don’t get mad anymore because I realize that they are insincere, disingenuous, and mindless. I just don’t pay any attention as it tells me a lot about the current state of affairs in modern government. It’s no wonder that I read the papers less and less; watch less and less TV news; and don’t bother to vote very often.
Tom Haley
I couldn't have said it better myself.
While Tom's post makes a lot of sense, I'm not sure I'd agree with his statement
"However, the lottery is intended to be another revenue source for government to provide more services to its citizens."
While that's the way it's sold to the public, I'm feel that we here all realize that the lotteries are intended to generate income to perpetuate government as it is (wasteful spending, politicians lining their own and their cronies' pockets, etc.), without raising property taxes, income taxes, or sales taxes, which most morons (oops, I mean voters) are more in tune with. Raise those taxes, and they might just vote you out, stopping your personal gravy train. The best interests of the citizens, and providing them more services, is way down on list of priorites for most politicians, if not an afterthought, or even on the list at all, IMHO.
As for my thoughts on the lottery itself, I quote from a list of bumper stickers that a friend sent to me;
The lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math
I liked that one!
Frank
I think the key to the "acceptability" of lotteries over casinos and other forms of gambling is the immediate, direct appearance of the state's take in the state treasury. But, I believe that I can make a very strong case for casino gambling as economically better (for the state's economy) than a lottery. Consider the following:
In a typical lottery about 45% of the ticket revenue gets paid back as prize money, about 50% goes to the state, and 5% goes to the company promoting the lottery (for salaries, advertising, et cet) and the retailers selling the tickets. This money is hitting the state treasury every week for the politicians to spend. The politicians can and do spend that on various projects (subject to the constraints placed on the revenue by the legislature or voters or constitution). Then at election time the politicians can point to [pick the appropriate choice] new roads, higher teacher salaries, property tax rate freeze or whatever the lottery proceeds are paying for.
Is this all bad? Not really. The state has benefitted from the new roads, higher teacher salaries, lower property taxes or whatever the lottery has paid for.
BUT, and its a big BUT, this money is coming out of the pockets of the people who can least afford it. Sure, some more middle class folks will buy a ticket or two every week or when the jackpots get large but the vast majority of this money comes out of the pockets of the lower echelons of society who are spending $20-$100 per week on tickets. These people tend not receive to receive a direct benefit (or a benefit in proportion to their contribution) from these expenditures.
However, with casino gambling (or poker rooms or horse tracks) employment is directly created and the money from the gambling circulates through the private economy as the government takes its tax bite. Jobs are created at the casinos, suppliers and contractors have more opportunities available to them, banks have opportunities to finance projects.... These companies and individuals then have additional money to spend and invest. Thus money circulates through the private sector. Conersely, selling lottery tickets is just an add on for most convenience stores.
What's the problem with this? The politicians don't have money that is directly allocatable or identifieable. They can only spend the incremental additional tax revenues generated through a casino. With lottery revenue earmarked for specific projects the pols can show us the "good" they and the lottery are doing.
Plus, lottery ticket sales through existing retailers doesn't create something negative that can be pointed to. There's no "casino district" with an associated crime rate. Lottery ticket sales just blend in.
My two cents,
Leigh Davis
The lottery is no worse a gamble than poker for someone that plays very poorly. In fact they will probably lose less money more slowly.
Other casino games such as craps would offer a better gamble than poker or the lottery for the people you are referring to.
Has anyone here been to the Diamond and Mayfair clubs in New York? While cheating and collusion are not present in real cardrooms and casinos, I'm not sure about the situation in these clubs, so I've been reluctant to play there. I think one of them is player dealt.
What are the low-limit games there like?
The gambling boats in NYC don't yet offer poker (to my knowledge), so it would be really cool if there was a place to play that isn't a three hour drive from here.
I am not familiar with these clubs, but working at a poker club in Columbus Ohio I can assure you that any game that cheated their customers would soon be out of business.
I've been to the Mayfair club a couple of times. Although I can't say I noticed anyone cheating or anything like that, I was still a bit uncomfortable...only because I did not know anybody, and it seemed everybody knew everyone else. I felt like I was crashing a 'home' poker game. But I don't know if that was just more psychological on my part....objectively, I can't say I was mistreated or cheated in anyway. I think at the Mayfair, you get to play 3 times for free (without paying membership fee)...so, I would try it out at least once and buy in for minimum. Good luck
The Diamond Club is a good club. It has dealers and a $3 per half-hour time charge for $4-8 hold'em and $5 per half hour for $10-20 hold'em. The also spread a HOSE rotation on Wednesdays. I don't think there is any funny business, but the 10-20 game is pretty tough to beat on a regular basis since most of the regulars are fairly skillful and tight-aggressive. If a producer does come along, you have to hit them hard and fast becasuse they usually drop a rack fairly quickly. The $4-8 is comparable in skill to a $10-20 at AC, with a mixture of tough players and some less-skillful ones. Although it is rare that a pure "tourist" comes along.
There is a short $30+$10 no-limit HE tourney on Sundays at 5:00 pm that is a lot of fun, but a bit of a crap shoot. The action afterward is usually the best of the week, and tourney players are given table preference.
Hope to see you there. Tell them Michael T. sent you and I will be able to pick up some free chips.
I haven't been to the Mayfair. I know that it is self-dealt. I think they spread limits up to $40-80 and I heard that the higher-limits games are pretty loose-agressive and wild (ultra-variance.)
I know the owners of the Mayfair club and they absolutly wont tolerate any subpar playing tactics. Most places that have alot of regular players are difficult for new people to feel comfortable in right away. The regulars are all friends but play hard at each other, thats the way it is in the poker world. After a week you will fit right in.
After watching the WSOP on ESPN I was wondering if anyone knows when the movie "Rounders" is going to be out. I know its suppose to be out this summer but when, summer is almost over. I would appreciate and information on this subject.
Thanks,
Dice
I believe the movie is supposed to premiere the first week of September. You can read more on the movie, and also view a trailer at Razzo's pokerworld internet site. I don't have the address off hand but it's easy to find. Dan
Is "Rounders" an "independent," i.e., "Artsy-Fartsy" film, like "Fargo," et al? One of those movies you have to go to a "Landmark" theater to see?
No, It is a major motion picture release. I've already seen it being advertised on TV.
I blieve Sept.11 release. Matt Damon too expensive for independent producers now. Looking foward to seeing it. Best of luck, Gary
Anyone know how someone becomes a prop? I'm moving to the Bay Area soon and would like to try my luck playing poker for awhile before I have to get a real job. I heard there is some kind of audition process. Is this true? Also, what do props get paid generally? What kind of qualifications are they looking for? Also, what are the hours? Is there a set schedule or do they just expect you to be there for a certain amount of hours a week?
Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Greg
I don't know all that much about it as I've never been a prop, but since no one else is responding here's what I can offer:
>>I heard there is some kind of audition process. Is this true?<<
Maybe at some cardrooms, but I've never heard of such where I've played.
>>Also, what do props get paid generally? <<
The most recent figure I heard was for Oceans Eleven. There I was told the 20-40 props get $25 per hour (and do not have to get up when the game fills up). Lower limit props get less but I don't know how much less.
>>What kind of qualifications are they looking for?<<
I think that at most clubs it's just the ability to fill a seat, not be a jerk, and hopefully not go broke in the first week. However, some places do apparently look for certain types of players. For a while, Oceans Eleven looked specifically for players who would "give action". (I was told they'd never hire me.)
>>Also, what are the hours? Is there a set schedule or do they just expect you to be there for a certain amount of hours a week? <<
I think that varies from place to place. But typically they do expect you to be there for a certain shift.
Hope that helps.
John Feeney
I understand the most sought after props are break even players.
Does anybody have any information about the FARGO event at Foxwoods scheduled for October 9 and 10? I am particularly interested in any tournament events, which I understand may require advance registration.
No text.
I'm sure this has been covered more than once on these pages. If my question is redundant, please refer me to the appropriate archive postings. The question is: what is the best software available to practice hold'em and 7-stud?
Willson Turbo Series. You should check out their Home Page.
CV
Starting August 17, Donna Harris will be the poker room manager at The Mirage. Let's all wish Donna the best of luck in her neww position.
Mason Malmuth
Donna sometimes proofreads Mason's work. Now you know why.
Let's all hope there IS a Mirage poker room after this mess with the Bellagio is srtaightened out.
Joe,
OK I'll bite. What mess is that?
Tom Haley
Does anyone know of any good clubs to play in or around Portland, OR? Also, what about Seattle? What are the best places to play, how high are the limits? Is it possible to play for a living in these smaller cities?
Matt,
The places I know about near Portland, OR:
Go NORTH to LaCenter, WA and play there. Two rooms, one is called the Frontier and I don't know the other's name. They play low limit and also up to 10-20 I believe.
Head SOUTHWEST to Grand Ronde, OR and play at the Spirit Mountain Casino. Full service poker room with food, beverages, and bad beat Jackpots. Games spread I'm not too sure about, only played there once and lost my shirt.
Closer to Seattle, there are many rooms and you CAN make a living at it if you are good.
My $.02 worth, Danno
I was out on the coast last year, and I think, but am not sure, that the Chinook casino in Lincoln City OR has a poker room as well. The thing is, I can't remember, since I was down there with my sister during a funeral and we just spent around twenty minutes in there goofing around on those new video slot machines. Also, there's another casino just a little ways outside of Eugene that's got a poker room. there's a web page out there that lists all the poker rooms, and their limits, currently operating in the United States. I just can't remember what the address is.
Sorry I couldn't be of more help. But I'd look into these leads.
Guy
I consider it a derogatory term for consistent losers at the poker table. I have a policy of not being derogatory towards any player. After being accused of being a holier than thou goody two shoes on RGP (that's ok I can take it) I thought that maybe I might reconsider my opinion of the term 'fish'. If someone considered me a losing player and called me a 'fish' I would consider it an insult. Is it meant to be?
Tom Haley
Yes it is you scaly mossback.
What's wrong with a descriptive term?
If I called you a losing player, that's also derogatory. It also may be a justified opinion. Whatever term is used to describe an action or trait of a person will become derogatory if people tend to look down on those actions or traits. The PC crowd doesn't get it at all when they insist on renaming things - the new names are soon just as offensive as the old names.
It's not possible to limit all communication to terms of praise.
Stephen,
After I posted I thought that calling someone a 'loser' is no worse and as you say whatever term you use to describe someone can be construed as derogatory. The reason I posted was that I may be associating more of a contemptuous attitude with the term than is really intended.
So now I know I am a holier than thou, goody two shoes, scaly mossback, member of the PC crowd.
Tom Haley
S. Landrum wrote:
"It's not possible to limit all communication to terms of praise".
If you can't say something nice about someone...
S.S.
I am going to give you a surprise answer. The term "fish" is never used in the poker room. I never saw it until I started looking at the Internet, and I never hear or see it any place else. If I was to hear someone use it in the poker room I would immediately think that this is a very amatuerist player who will probably play very poorly. The term we always use is "live one."
A couple of years ago I consulted on a major gambling book. It took me a long time to convince the author that terms such as "pull," and "full boat" had to be removed from the poker section on the book. My argument was that if any experienced player saw these terms they would immediately conclude that the author probably didn't know much about poker and not play it very much. The author agreed and these terms were removed.
I also agree that you should be careful about rediculing anyone at the poker table. Many people know how to play reasonably well, but they choose not to. It is generally more fun to gamble than to play tight. By rediculing someone they may begin to play much better against you only. If you don't realize this, it can be very costly.
Mason,
My perception from reading posts on the internet regarding poker is that many players seem to have contempt for the "live ones" (I do like this term the best). Many of these players claim to make at least some sort of income from poker. Having contempt for the "live ones" is something that I can't fathom. If you treat poker as a business then you have contempt for your customers and I've always felt that this was not a very good way to run a business.
Tom Haley
I agree, Tom. There's no place for contemp for "live ones", "producers", or even "scaly mossbacks". Such contempt stems, I believe, from players' excessive concern with short term results. They don't like it when a weak player puts a "bad beat" on them because they want to win this pot now. A better appreciation for probability would go a long way toward diluting much of this contempt.
John Feeney
I also agree and would argue that the term doesn't have to have any particular connotation associated with it. "Fish" could just be a descriptive term to describe an inexperienced player or one who gambles at poker rather than roulette. I.e. It's a synonym of "live one."
As far as actually insulting a weak, loose, or gambling player at the table, well, that would be negative EV....
Regards,
Leigh W. Davis
I guess there are three points to be made.
1. Players who use "non-standard" slang usually are very inexperienced and probably don't play that well.
2. I suspect that most of the posters on this forum and rgp who constantly claim to be big winners are anything but. It is my experience that the most successful players are fairly low key about their overall results. Of course there are a couple of exceptions, but the best players are aware that it is important to make the recreational player feel comfortable at the tables. Thus they rarely, if ever, make claims of great success, no matter what the venue.
3. I believe that it is good policy to low key your current results. Very few players can stand the test of time. In POKER, GAMING, & LIFE Sklansky writes about the "hot flashes." He says that he has seen many of them come, and most of them go. The reason for this is that the standard deviation can distort results greatly over a period of several months, especially if you adopt an extremely aggressive style and choose to play a little too loose. All of us need to be aware of this. So when I say "low key your results," I mean in addition to broadcasting them, to be aware that they can change in the future. Your opponents will learn to adjust to your playing style, the cards can run bad, and the "fish" can learn to play much better. The best players are constantly adjusting their games to account for this.
Your reference to "hot flashes" is very appropriate to tournament players. An "extremely aggressive" and "little too loose" style can bring great short term success but long term failure.
Many years ago when I first started playing poker in the back room of a tavern, the old farts that populated the game took great pleasure in calling me a pigeon. Or a turkey. (The name du jours back then.) They loved to call the weaker players by that moniker and it did intimidate me. "Is that pigeon going to play? Give that turkey a seat! Hey pigeon, your not going to call with that hand are you?" They were a pretty good natured bunch and I learned to live with it. But the fact remained if they thought you were an inferior player they called you a pidge.
Fish is more of a pool hustler term.
About 10 years ago we started calling all of the live ones donkeys.
Today they are just idiots, goofballs, morons, maniacs and bad players. "Live one" has never gone out of style. In fact, it may be apocryphal, but the term "live one" is said to have originated when a player actually died at the table and someone shouted out, "Bring us a live one."
Ridiculing the "live ones" is of course ridiculous. But I have noticed something. The best players, the truly great ones in any venue, never do this. The ones that carry on about how the "idiots" play are the wanna be--neer-do-wells that never quite reach the top level of play. Oh sure, some are probably pros, but they are pros with problems. They go broke. They run bad--a lot. They are emotional. They lose their cool. Monster egos. They haven't realized that you can't win every hand and that tomorrow is another day. So, in a sense, they are live ones too! They problem is they don't go quietly like the real producers do. They stink up the place on their way down and make it unenjoyable for one and all.
I truly love all of the bad players that play in my game. I have learned to really appreciate them. Sometimes they can run hot for a couple of days, and this can be VERY frustrating, but if you have patience and stick with them they are capable of blowing it all back in one night, plus.
I am very nice and polite to the bad players without being condescending. I treat them with respect and realize that most of them make more money in retirement or their professions than I do working playing poker. They have big incomes and play poker for a myriad of reasons the least of which is to play well or make money. No, they don't like to lose, but they don't seem to be bothered much about it unless some dick-head is giving them a bunch of shit about how they play. This they don't like and will take offense to and start playing somewhere else. Or simply play a better game. It is amazing to me that if you treat them with respect and laugh and joke with them whether winning or losing they will keep coming back and glady give you their money.
God bless the fish that swim in the sea, that feed the sharks like you and me.
I am a "live one." I am a "fish." I don't play poker as well as many other players that I choose to play against. Now, having said that, I still manage to win money, sometimes a lot of it, from these superior players. I lose most, if not all of it back to other players, but that doesn't seem to assuage the anger of the better player who lost to me. Sometimes, when a superior player pisses me off with his crybaby, whining behavior, I put on my "A" game and cease playing for fun and concentrate on putting in my bets only when I have the best of it.
I know what you said is true. It amazes me how much money these "superior" players lose in the long run because of their "whining". Obviously, they don't realize they're turning goldfish into barracuda with all the free advice about correct play.
If anyone is interesed in playing 5-10 HE/omaah or 6-12 HE in the COlumbus area they can contact me for info about the games.
Looking for low-stakes game in Syracuse NY area. Email me (Bill) if you know of a game.
Anybody here every played at the casino in Lake Elsinore, CA? If so, I would like to get your take on this place. I have been playing low limit HE (3-6, 6-12) there for a couple weeks and haven't had a winning session yet. I'm wondering if the low-limit players there are a bit more skillful than say, those found at the LA clubs or the Indian reservations.
In general, has anyone experienced differing levels of opponent skill depending on club location, day of the week, or time of day?
JYC wrote: "Anybody here every played at the casino in Lake Elsinore, CA?"
Yes.
"If so, I would like to get your take on this place. I have been playing low limit HE (3-6, 6-12) there for a couple weeks and haven't had a winning session yet. I'm wondering if the low-limit players there are a bit more skillful than say, those found at the LA clubs or the Indian reservations."
I don't know about more skillful, but certainly tighter. There is, generally speaking, less loose money at that club than there is at the same limits in LA clubs. I've only played there during their tournament weekends. The loose money on those occasions comes from out-of-towners in for the tournament. You will find quite a few on-tilt types who just busted out of the evening's tournament. The locals are tighter than your "average" LA player, with a few exceptions. Money is still there to be made, as they are still NOT more skillful, on average, than the same level players in LA.
"In general, has anyone experienced differing levels of opponent skill depending on club location, day of the week, or time of day?"
Yes. These can be significant factors. While you might find any type of game at any time, certain styles of game are more likely to occur depending upon the factors you list.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I played there a few times but gave it up because the play of the regulars against each other made me uncomfortable. If not actually collusive, the appearance of collusion is present. I saw a dealer swipe a $3.00 rake that should have been returned to a tourist winning an undersized pot, reported it to a floorman, and left when his shrug seemed to indicate a lack of interest in correcting the situation. Would still go there for their major tournament offerings, but I have no interest in playing in the side games due to the above. I was beating the game there, but not by much.
Any recommendations on where to stay and play low stakes poker on a 2 day trip. I play mainly $2 to $10 Hi/Lo and occasionally play 7 stud, but I looking for a place where the games start early and last all day.
Is Station the preferred venue?
Thanx
Buggs,
I'm planning on heading to KC in the near future for a poker expedition. Through e-mail I heard they have $5-10, $15-30, and occaisionally $20-40 hold'em at the Station Casino. I'll post about it when I go up there which I think will be in September.
Tom Haley
Are buses safe to take from the strip to downtown? How much does it cost to take a cab downtown?
Randy,
I never took a bus from the strip to downtown Vegas. Cabs are not too bad but if you make a lot of trips the cost adds up. I would recommend renting a car if it all possible. Rates are fairly cheap and I think that it pretty much pays for itself when you add up the costs to and from the airport and driving around town. Vegas is a pretty easy town to get around in. There are some shuttle busses that are free as well although I don't know their schedules. Call the California because I think that is one of the downtown stops.
Tom Haley
at a recent 10=20 holdem game (river-boat) a husband/wife sat next to each other. there was not an obvious appearance of colusion between them but the times they raised each other sure made one wonder. how does a player protect themselves when this senario rears its ugly head? also how can a player stop team play when the team is mucking a hand before the river card?
larry,
I wish I knew but I can tell you how to get around in Las Vegas.
Tom Haley
I think the buses are safe and convenient, and when I go that's almost all I ever use. When I was there for 10 days, I got a pass good for unlimited use for a month, and it was very inexpensive. Then again, I have simple tastes.
Dennis
If you're going to be travelling between casinos very much- by that I mean something other than walking from Caesar's to the Mirage- cabs will add up very quickly. You almost have to do something other than cab it. Cab fares add up quickly. The cab I took from the Luxor to downtown cost me $25. Flamingo to downtown, maybe $15. Plus a return trip. Do it a three times during a trip plus to/from the airport and it adds up.
The town is easy to drive in- every has parking and there are only a few major streets/highways to learn so a rental can make a lot of sense. I've heard the buses are acceptable as well but I've never taken one.
Regards,
Leigh W. Davis
Thanks for all the replies; I am off to Vegas in a couple hours. Also does anyone know, would it be rude to ask Mason for an autograph after beating him at poker? :)
Randy Refeld
Anthony Holden relates the tale that a famous poker player once said, "I can be anywhere in the world, and if I don't know your face, I know I can beat you." Good luck.
The Citizens' Area Transit (CAT) bus system is very good. The service operates frequently, twenty-four hours a day. Also, they've been doing a better job keeping their air conditioners working
Renting a car in Vegas is cheap because it's so unnecessary. I rented a car once for a weekend and put a total of eighteen miles on it before it got a flat tire. (And Avis wouldn't even come out and fix it!)
I am new to internet computing but have been a long time reader of Sklansky, Malmuth and Zee. This web site makes my ISP monthly fee worth it all by itself.
For a few weeks I have been trying to "catch up" by reading all the old archives in anticipation of making fresh and meaningful posts. During the past week or so I have been having problems loading the "RECENT ARCHIVES" web page. It just never finishes loading. This is true using both web browsers (the latest Netscape Navigator and MS Internet Explorer 4.0) with Earthlink as the ISP, and AOL using its version of MS IE4. This is true during peak periods as well as late at night. This problem didn't occur a month or so ago. The individual month's archives and all other parts of the web site load OK.
Has anyone else had this problem? I'm assuming the bug is at your end but I'm open to suggestions. I e-mailed Jessica a few days ago about this but haven't heard back. Despite this complaint, please accept my congratulations on a fine web site. I hope any future contributions I am able to make prove worthy.
Jessica is on vacation all this month. She will be back at the beginning of September and hopefully will be able to address your problem. In the meantime I suggest that you email Chuck Weinstock at ConJelCo. He might be able to help with the problem.
For what it's worth, for me the recent archives currently take a long time to load, but finally do load. It's maybe 5 or 6 minutes. I know nothing of the technical aspects, but I have a cable modem. Maybe its greater speed makes a difference? I've been assuming that they are taking longer to load because the "recent" archives are getting quite big. Perhaps they will divide them up into several separate months soon and that will solve it. Just a guess.
This is my fault. I need to go in and move some of the older archives into separate monthly archives but have not had a chance to do so.
I will attempt to get this done in the next day or so.
Chuck
Thanks Mason, John and Chuck for the quick response to my query. I thought the problem may have been do to the large size of the archive. The growth of this web site appears to be phenomenal. In the meantime, I'll busy myself just trying to keep up with all the new stuff.
I've now created separate monthly archives through July. I will try to keep on top of this in the future, but please feel free to let me know if the size of the archive is getting excessive.
Chuck
Thanks Chuck. I'll be "surfing" tonight if I get knocked out of the Omaha H/L Tournament early at Crystal Park!
None of us have cars. What is the fastest way to get to Foxwoods from Boston?
I've only been to Foxwoods by car. But one time I took the train from Boston to Providence (I believe the train went all the way to New York), and there was a stop along the line pretty close to the Casino. I would think that there is a shuttle that would take you from the train station to Foxwoods.
But i'm guessing that if there is more than 2 or 3 people going it is easier and maybe cheaper to rent a car. That's what me and 3 friends did last time I was there (November of last year) and it cost no more than $15 per person including gas.
carlos
Certainly not the *fastest* way: Tour Bus... Entertainment Tours (800-310-9900), Interstate Bus Lines (800-287-8632). Amtrak to Mystic, CT becomes a reasonable alternative if you are going to book a room in Mystic. Otherwise it's a 15 mile cab ride even after you get off the train. Stay at the Mystic Inn and there are shuttles to the Mohegan Sun (discontinued to Foxwoods now that they have extra accomodations).
I took Amtrak to Mystic once, and the cab fare to Foxwoods was $15. But that was a few years ago.
At a recent 10=20 holdem game (river-boat) a husband/wife sat next to each other. There was not an obvious appearance of colusion between them but the times they raised each other sure made one wonder. How does a player protect themselves when this senario rears its ugly head? Also how can a player stop team play when the team is mucking a hand before the river card?
If I am positive the players are colluding, I will leave the table, not before making a very loud objection to their play. I want to make them feel as uncomfortable as possible, and also alert others at the table of their play. I will then notify management of my suspicions. Before I do any of this I have to be 100% positive of the collusion. Sometimes it may seem like people are colluding, but it is obvious to a well schooled opponent that they are not. I play at the Trop in AC and I really don't see to much collusion. I recently played against a mother and her son, while it was obvious to me they where trying to collude, they where so bad at it that I didn't say a word. They both went broke. A good player can defeat 2 colluders at a full table most of the time. Good Luck
Collusion does not exist in casino poker.
> Collusion does not exist in casino poker.
But if it *did* exist, Turbo Texas Hold'Em 2.0 simulations could tell us how to deal with it.
While I am quite sure that Abdul Jalib's post was meant to be either tounge in cheek or sarcastic (take your pick), it does little to address the potential problem of collusion. It has been my experience that collusion is not currently very common in middle limit play in Las Vegas. Higher limits present a slightly different picture; the fact that players may have a significant portion of their net worth on the table can lead to potential problems in this regard. I know one high limit player who feels that some collusion at these limits is unavoidable and is simply a cost of doing business. While his belief may or may not be true; it pays to be attentive. Collision is not the first thing that I look for in a higher limit poker game in Las Vegas, but it does not hurt to pay attention.
Mike Souchak
The only collusion I have ever witnessed was probably by people who just don't know any better. A usual situation will be a three handed pot where one person is all in and the other tow agree to "check it out." Another situation that can occur is when someone is in a game with a friend, spouse, etc they call when a fold is in order because they hold a long shot draw that might win and if it doesn't they haven't really lost anything anyway.
Collusion will be the first thing I look for in the high mid-limit games in S. California.
What is the story with legalized poker in NYS with the casino referendums the legislature is trying to get through? Is it possible at Turning Stone Casino(Indian reservation) near Utica? What about Casino Niagra which is just over the border in Canada? The referendrums want to put legalized casinos in several locations in the state but I haven't heard anything about poker. anybody know?
No, I don't know. But I can tell you this. Eventually there will be a casino in every state on every corner, just the way it used to be with gas stations. There is too much pie out there for every state not to want a piece.
"I'm reasonably sure there will be more response to this post than the one I made on RGP. That probably would be an indicator of something in itself. I can honestly say that I understand why people get tired of talking about this issue. There is so little in the way of positive contributions made to the subject matter and while there is so much in the way of innuendo, gossip, and rumors that all the discussion seems rather pointless."
Tom Haley
If that is the case why did YOU make such a BIG DEAL of resurrecting the whole damn issue in the first place?
Re: Sports Betting Opinions?
Posted by Bob A 928674 on Friday, 7 August 1998, at 3:03 a.m., in response to Re: Sports Betting Opinions?, posted by Tom Haley on Thursday, 6 August 1998, at 9:14
a.m.
Roger Marris's hair was falling out and he was also developing an ulcer. If Grifrey, Sosa OR McGwire EVEN TIE the home run record I will walk naked through the Mirage poker room with a baseball hanging on a string from my privates.
I saw him last night playing $1 to $5 Stud. Everyone thought he was Howard Hughes back from the grave.
Late last night, early morning, a weird individual could be seen streaking naked from the 10-20 game (in the corner) to the mens rest room with a strange object dangling between his legs........Make that two strange objects.
I will be spending several weeks in the Austin area and wish to play poker, if possible, in some house games. If anyone has any information I would appreciate it.
hey if this is you then you know who i am just by the name i used. if so i wouldnt mind getting an email to keep in touch, heard you were going to california. if this isnt the dana i am thinking of, then disregard this message.
if it is my email is mlipan1@lsu.edu
you could not handle the HE played in Austin .most of the games are NL and require 1000's of $.you and the "GOLDEN CHILD" better stick to 4-8 @ the rouge!!!!
Does anyone know of a site that sell used gambling books online?
If you want to avoid paying big dollars for used books, try getting them through your local library. At least at my library, they can get almost any book through free inter-library loans.
It takes a month or so (even for libraries, these books are hard to find), but it is an inexpensive way to find out if the book is any good or not.
I'm planning a trip to LV and was wondering if anyone good give me some sound advice on traveling...such as a way to get cheap plane tickets (I'm from the Balt/DC area) and discounts on rooms etc...
Jon
Hi Jon,
SWA (Southwest Airlines) just started selling $99 EWRT tickets Monday. This is a good airline I already bought my tickets for $380. With discount and everything else I would of saved $160 dollars. I don't know if your near a terminal that flys SWA but they're on the NET. I hope this helps you. Four Queens is about the cheapest place to stay 1-800-634-6045. LVRS/Travelscape.com or reservations@lvrs.com 1-800-233-5594 open 24/7.
Paul
I live closer to the east side of San Francisco Bay and would like to know the best places to play 6-12 to 15-30 hold 'em over here. I guess this would include the Oaks Club and Casino San Pablo. Types of games and how many tables would be appreciated. I gather from a post below that Lucky Chances is pretty good. Anything in the east bay that cam match that club.
You may want to look further east - there are some clubs in napa and eastward (towards Sacramento) games may be good to make up for the drive. These clubs are smaller.
Livest 6-12 game you will ever find is at the California Grand in Pacheco (next to Concord). Its legendary for its action, as its not uncommon to see pot after pot go over $200. The drop is a bit high, but they offer many high hand and jackpots so its made up somewhat in that way, but believe me if you have the stomach for wild games, that is the place to be. I used to prop there and I never could imagine making $6000 at 6-12 and below, but I did it the first month, then proceeded to lose $3000 the next. Action game indeed. On Friday and Saturday they also have a 12-24, but unless you get there early the list goes on forever because the owner really doesnt want to spread the game since he takes so much off the table at lower limits. If you do make it in though I doubt you can find a better game at a limit near that.
Thanks WildBill. I'll try it soon.
Can anyone out there give me a source for professional clay poker chips. I thought ConJelCo sold them, but I couldn't find them in the catalog.
Thank you.
Try http://www.pokerchips.com
Mike
Try www.casinocom.com, they have many different chips, however due to the large casino orders from the new hotels the edge spot & top hat & cane chips are very behind schedule.
If you are interested I have a set of 500 10 gram clay chips less than 1 year old I may be willing to sell. Email me if you are.
Try Gambler's General Store(1-800-322-2447)in Las Vegas.They have a prettywide selection.
The best by far is from Paul-son 1-800-paulson . I have been shopping around for months and finally found the answer.They make retail edge spot inlayed chips for home use. The have a large selection and will mail out catalogs. I have been playing home games for years and we just bought some terrific chips. They also do customn inlay work and also have a huge selecion of ready in stock chips. They make gaming supplies for the best of the best and are in about 80% of the worlds casino's. I am more than pleased with mine. An example of cost I got in house non-denomination of edge spotted chips with "fabulous Las Vegas inlay work with cards(royal flush of hearts) and a slot machine" I bought 500 total at .63 each for a total bill of $328.00 with shipping and handling included. They will last forever and have a TOP HAT and CANE engraved in the edges along with the edge spots. They have some cheaper and customn up to .90 cents wach. You'll get a break for 1k or more but for home games you'll not need that many.
I'm going to be traveling to Colorado in a couple of weeks and thought I might stop by Central City or Blackhawk for some poker. Any suggestions on the ideal location to play would be greatly appreciated.
It depends on the kind of game your looking for. The games at The Lodge and at the Central Station are historically quite loose, whereas the games at Bullwhackers are often a little bit tighter. IMO the Bullwhackers room is the nicest, with the Lodge and the Station tied for second. Only the Lodge and Bullwhackers spread Omaha, and (I think) only Bullwhackers spreads 7 stud. Bullwhackers DID have the biggest bad beat in the state, at over 77 grand, but not any longer-- me and a buddy just hit it on Tuesday (no bull).
Games in Colorado our a free-for-all, do not try any fancy plays, because most of the players here won't even respect or understand what you our doing. The state of Colorado has a $5.00 max on big bets, the only limits you will find is 2-5 and 3-5. I prefer to play at Bushwhackers(Blackhawk) and Harveys(Central City). Have a great time in Colorado! Mark
healthcentral.com is one of our advertisers. its the one that starts off dr. dean something or other in a yellow green box. ive found some interesting health tips on the site. today was one that told about some vegetables that are better for you if cooked. interesting for me but maybe not for others. i just hope the live ones and book buyers keep eating their vegetables. good luck.
This book buyer (uh, maybe I picked the wrong category there) would just once like to see a cardroom kitchen that uses organic produce. I mean CA eliminated the smoke, now how about the pesticides! Oh well, Oceans-11 does have Garden Burgers. :)
Hi John,
I have a brother John. Anyway you are probably better off packing a cooler with lunch or dinner that you find to your liking. This will help your head because you won't be worrying about what you are going to eat. I usually take a break from the game after 4hrs because that's when my brain becomes a pea. If you don't drive than this could be a definite problem. This way I go outside for about an hour and then play another session of 4hrs. Hope this helps you John.
Paul
ps: I showed my brother one of your posts he laughed.
Not that anyone cares, but I thought I'd mention that yours truly just hit the biggest bad beat in the history of Colorado on Tuesday-- over 77 grand. I had quad nines, and my buddy had a straight flush (in hearts) to the K. My share was 40%.
Talk about plus EV!
Congrads GD!
Hey mister can you spare a dime!
Vince.
I'm going to be swooping down on Sin City on July 15th (staying for the weekend), and I wanted to know what the game conditions are like at the Bellagio 15-30, as I fully plan to park my ass in a seat there for the bulk of my stay. Are the games loose, aggressive, studded with pros? Do conditions change from day to night, weekday to weekend? Anything you could pass on would be really appreciated.
BTW, I'd love to see some of you (I hope your reading this Vince), so if we could get together and play a bit, or just have a brew, please get in touch with me.
GD,
The 15-30 games at the Bellagio vary considerably from extremely tough (rock tight) to extremely loose aggressive (especially when the California folks is in town to GAMBLE). The weekend is certainly when you will find the best games. But, my friend, the weekend of the 15th the place to be is probably the Orleans. You will be here smacked dab in the middle of the Orleans Open Tournament! Should be a lot of action just beacause of that!
Right now I am planning on being here but my plans are day to day. I have personal affairs to take care of back in Boston and may have to leave here soon.
BTW - 3 Bet is right! He and I make any game we're in worth playing! Looking forward to meeting you! Just look for the bald guy with a gotee.
Vince.
Hopefully you'll be at the Orleans, and I'll run into you. However, if YOU see ME, come on by; I've got long, shaggy blonde hair, will almost certainly be poorly dressed, and doubtlessly be wearing a white Nuggets cap. Also I'll have glasses on. I'm about 6'0, and somewhere in the neighborhood of 220 lbs.
Till then,
Guy
Guy, I will be looking for you! Bring that Jackpot dough! I'll let you put me up in a tourney! Ain't I a nice Guy. Oh, your Guy not me! Hey I got that quote from the internet , not a book by Kierkegard.
Vince.
I'm an American who just moved to Frankfurt. Does anyone know anything about poker rooms / private games in the area? Thanks in advance...
Josh
Josh,
The casino's closest to Frankfurt are Wiesbaden and Bad Homburg. For an overview of the games in Germany go to: http://eppa.bigfoot.com/CashGames/germany.htm, but beware, it's not up-to-date. E.g., there is no poker anymore at Bad Oeynhausen. Most poker games start at 7 or 8 p.m., you can make a reservation by phone, at the registration desk or in the poker pit. Always wear jacket and tie, no jeans or sneakers! Don't forget your passport.
The rake is higher than in the States, and the dealers are counting on a tip, for pots >500 they expect at least 10. Tips are shared with all the employees.
Many casino's have regular small tournaments, for an overview of the ones at Wiesbaden go to: http://www.spielcasinos.de/europe/de/event/frevent.htm For info on tournaments throughout Europe, check out an issue of "Poker Europa" which is available for free in the poker pit, or become a member of the EPPA and they will send it to you.
The game most played in Germany is spread-limit Stud. The players typically limp in/call too much on third street. In Wiesbaden and Bad Homburg there are also pot-limit games, a whole different ballgame. Beware, there are professionals in Germany.
Let me know if you want more info.
Richie
Richie,
Thanks for the good info and tips. Just checked out the Wiesbaden web site and noticed that they have tournaments all through July and August. Do side games go during the tournaments as well? By the way, how big are the rooms at Wiesbaden and Bad Homburg?
I'm primarily a limit stud player so I guess my best bet might be spread-limit stud. What are the limits which usually go?
Thanks again... Josh
The poker rooms in Germany are very small. I have no experience with the tournaments in Wiesbaden but at other casino's these tournaments typically had 20 participants or less, and the side games are just the regular games.
Stud is played at DM 10-50, with a DM 5 ante and a DM 10 bring-in, or at double this amount. I have also seen a DM 30-60 split-limit game with the same ante and bring-in in Dortmund.
I listen quite often to some of the sports betting shows done in Vegas on KDWN, and came to thinking that why don't they have a poker show? Being a former Vegas resident, I know that most of the AM stations have endless runs of crap that I can't imagine draw that many listeners, but a poker show would have a built in advertising audience and with the spread of radio on the internet, could draw from quite a few sources nationwide. With all the tournaments these days, this show could give results of the latest stop and have interviews with the myriad of people in the industry. Even better, the chance to talk about new rooms and conditions/games in the current rooms could be much more timlier and accurate than any other source since you could have people call in or send email into the show. Granted it isnt as easy content wise as talking about next weeks football games, but still I think it could work. Has anything like this been done before? Maybe we should ask Phil Helmuth to host it since he did such a good service during the WSOP...but if not I will be the first to volunteer.
Hey 2+2,
I walked into a BlockBuster Video store last week for the first time. I rented Saving Private Ryan (thumbs up) and Rushmore (2 thumbs up), not that you would care. Just thought I'd mention the movies. Anyway one of the first things that caught my eye was a video by that premier gambler John Patrick ("Right! 2 cubits by 2 cubits" a little Cosby humor). I immediately looked further along the shelf. But, to my AMAZEMENT (yes Mr. Burgio, amazement) I could not find a single copy of David Sklansky the Video! I hurriedly queried the counter help: "Pray tell are all the copies of Mr. S's (Not Sinatra, Sklansky should be so lucky) video out for the evening?" I asked. "No sir, we don't carry that video and further more I don't know who David Sklansky is!" she replied. After I washed her mouth out with soap I admonished the manager, who quickly had me removed from the premises. I thought about revenge but that's not my style. So to avoid future conflicts with video store personnell why don't you put copies of The Video in video stores.
Vince.
P.S. Do not tell me to buy one. It's not convienient. Nough said.
P.S. I see from S's response to pages missing in the 21st addition that he really is human. I hate all those folks that though otherwise.
Selling videos and books to the khaki-clad masses is all about marketing, not about content.
Hello Everyone!
I am taking an unexpected visit to Las Vegas this afternoon and will be playing poker at Bellagio at 9:00 p.m. everynight sharp.
I look forward to meeting some of you. Listen for Moses being called and come and say hello! But please don't check raise me!
Moses
Do't forget to stop buy so I can give you the 21st Century edition of my Ten Commandments.
I'm betting you took out the part about coveting thy neighbor's wife (or Girlfriend).
Moses,
Did you come over to London ? If you played any poker, how did you get on ?
Curiously,
Andy.
What would it take to get real cardrooms in Florida? Currently florida allows cardrooms only at Parimutuel facilities and this is also very low limit. Florida statutes prohibit pots greater than 10$.What can be done about this, if anything? Ideas anyone?
Frank,
My instinct is to put pressure on your congressman. Tax revenue is lost to Mississippi due to the lack of gambling here in Florida. Of course, getting rid of the lottery would help. No one in government who supports the lottery could simultaneously support a new type of gambling. That would be a conflict of interest. After all, the lottery's just lining the politicians' pockets. None of that money was ever seen by education.
Bill
Thanks Bill,
The lottery is probably here to stay but I was doing some research and noticed that California has a lottery, cardrooms, parimutuel facilities but no casino gambling. Riverboat gambling casinos were up for a vote in Florida not too long ago and lost.But cardrooms are a different ball of wax.Cardrooms in California are an exception but it seems like Florida is close. They are somewhat legal but extremely strict. Who wants to play poker for 25 and 50 cent bets.What a waste of time. I want to do something but it may be easier just to move.
The bets weren't as bad as that damn $10 limit!!! We played in a couple of places a few years ago, when we went down there to an Orlando vacation. NEVER AGAIN!
Watching the dealer remove pot money and return it to players on 4th street, 5th street, etc was one of most aggrivating things I've ever seen....(PLUS A RAKE??!?!?!).
They really should just change it to Ante $1.00 or 1.50, deal 7 cards in a row, push money to the winner. Hell, deal one card- you can play War for 10 a hand!
What a STUPID system.... I'll wait to catch a cruise ship the next time I want to gamble in Florida- and they ain't getting any lottery money from me either!
The tournaments associated with these rooms are just as amusing. Since you cannot make more than $10 a hand, for a $1000 first place tournament, the structure is 100 hands EXACTLY.
So you play 50 hands exactly at the elimination table. You may rebuy up until the last 8 hands (oh and the rebuy goes right into the casino's pockets). So everyone rebuys, the last 2 hands are always capped and the flop seen by all 8 players. The winner of the last hand like this ALWAYS makes the final table. Talk about a pure crapshoot.
I tried about 3 times to beat this game and quit. I would never rebuy since the money didnt hit the prize pool. I attempted to get a chip command early while people were tighter. I would always get a nice chip lead like 40% of the table or more, but the fools would rebuy 5 times a piece and my stack shrunk in relation. Then we'd play the little crapshoot on the last 2 hands. Whee fun.
The tourneys I saw (again, several years ago), were more straightforward- no rebuys. Big draw at the one place I was in (Indian "casino" = bingo hall with poker) was the Royal jackpots.
You'd win a couple of grand (as it built up) if you hit a certain color royal...
They were all one-table satellites, paid top 2 or 3 places, if i remember correctly? Anyway, just an aggrivating experience in the "casino" and the dogtrack (poker there also)...
Never again!
The situation in Florida is twofold: one, the Indians, who currently have legal cardrooms with the $10 pot-size limit, and who must deal with either the state executive branch or the federal government (Dept of the Interior). This procedure is tortuous, dictated by a federal law governing Indian gaming.
Two, the pari-mutuels, who also have the $10 limit. The difference here is that they must go through the state legislature for any changes in their situation.
Both the Indians and the pari-mutuels want higher-stakes poker, but Gov Jeb Bush and his attorney-general Robert Butterworth are against it, despite Bush's having taken campaign money from the gaming industry.
One of the Indian tribes has recently completed a new high-rise hotel on its reservation outside of Miami. I can't believe they did this to accommodate 25-cent poker players. So the thinking is that something is in the works. Exactly what or when is not generally known at this time.
I personally believe the exclusion of high-stakes poker can't be justified too much longer; there's too much money at stake.
TWIMC,
I am staying at (4Q)4Queens downtown and I was wondering if I should rent a car, to travel to the (M)Mirage to play LLStud or is Binions OK. It will be the end of August so I imagine it will be warm. I also like the M sportssection (SS) better. Let me know, so I will be able to enjoy my week watching Behrens win the PC.
IBBFEEN
Is anyone else having trouble connecting to Phil Hellmuth's Website (www.philhellmuth.com). Every time I try to connect, it gives me the following error message: A network error occured while Netscape was receiving data. (Network Error: Connection Refused) Try connecting again.
Anyone else having this problem, or am I just doing something wrong?
James Flames
same here
I connected fine, however rumur has it that his website goes on TILT every once in a while.
.
Does anyone have any experiences (positive or negative) with any of the zillions of online sportsbooks?
I'm itching to wager on the Women's World Cup soccer game on Saturday, but can't be bothered to drive four hours to Nevada.
oasiscasino.com does pay out, however they now charge a deposit fee. Sportsbook.com also pays out & does not have a deposit fee.
Intertops has been around a long time and has always paid me. I think they may be at the top, although since they spoiled me, I don't look much elsewheres.
Well its a little late for the WWC game, but I have accounts at 9 of them and only once in the 3 years I have used them did I run into a disreputable one that didnt pay, and fortunately I had only about a quarter of what I put in there that was lost. One thing is that many of them seemed to be aligned under one or two books, especially Sportsbook.com. I would generally say that one is the best all-purpose book if you just want one of them. Each one has different features though and obviously I get the best prices with so many to choose from. I definitely think though if you are going to put any kind of serious money into them, to spread it around like I have and generally take withdrawls whenever one goes over a certain point just in case. But I will say it seems like most are pretty safe and pay out these days.
If your interested in sports betting, I take action on a good variety of sports. Im in California sounds like not to far from you. If your interested you can E-MAIL me with any Quesions you may have. I run a fair operation Im not out to break anybody. I give guys who wantto get down on games an oppurtunity without the risk of going offshore. If interested let e know. THANKS efo-iii@webtv.net
Well, I am off to another bridge tourney, this time in San Antonio. Does anyone know anything about poker games there? Thanks
Danny S
So what? Aurora's Hollywood Casino and Joliet's Empress spread poker approx. 23 hours a day, Monday through Thursday. On Friday's it's about seven hours, because they close about 7 p.m. No weekend poker. Think about that. Then ask yourself, if you should patronize those joints. So what, if they should close, because of lack of patronage? The joints are offering poker, during the slow periods of the week,which fits their financial agenda. Then they close on the weekend, which for me a poker player, is disastrous. I say, "stop patronizing them". Either keep the rooms open all week, or close them. Actually, it is a sucker situation for poker players. The players are supplementing the joints "take", at the joints convenience, then the joints shut-out the players on the weekends. I don't care about that "number of gaming postions" nonsense. The joints have a choice, and they have chosen to close the poker rooms, on the weekends. BOTH OF THEM. Hollywood and Empress can agree on a 10% to max. $5.00 rake, and agree to close on weekends. However, they won't agree among themselves, to spread poker on at least, one of the joints, on the weekends. STAY AWAY!
This is the reason I quit playing poker in Illinois. I've been on the Empress a few times and the action is bad. Hardly any tables open in the evenings, but I'm sure it would be packed if it was open on the weekends.
But, the greedy casinos are only interested in money not customers. They need to open the VIP slots on the weekends. Illinois has alot of other stupid rules. Like the casino has to be on a river. What's the point? Now, that they have approved a license for Rosemont, they can't figure out where to build it. Since, the Des Plaines river is shallow in Rosemont, they are probably going to have to build the river too.
So guys, whats your advice for this upcoming weekend? I'm in the Loop for a conference which ends friday. I was going to do some low/mid limit hold'em on friday afternoon, evening----and maybe saturday am. Should I skip Joliet and just go to Gary? Is the Showboat (now a Harrahs?) still the best room?
The Empress in Joliet closes the poker room on weekends so they can open the slot VIP room. You can play poker there on Fridays, but they close at 5:30 p.m. Give Harrah's in Indiana a try.
Hollywood in Aurora has poker Friday evenings but is closed all day Saturday. Harrahs (formerly Showboat) is your best choice. It's also very close to the Loop. If you have a car, take the Chicago Skyway and follow the signs. Very easy. Good Luck,
Rich
You can play Harrah's E. Chicago (odd boarding hours) or Empress Hammond (even boarding hours). Harrah's has a lot of loose-passive types, while I have observed very loose to manaical players in Hammond (just one trip). Harrah's has a lot of action up to 20-40.
Thanks for the info, guys. I'm off to the Harrahs room then for this friday pm. Give me a yell if you are there. I'll be the quiet guy in low-mid limit hold'em--probably wearing a "See Rock City" hat.
If going to Indiana is feasible to you, then you should certainly vote with your dollars. If you do, though, you should send a letter to the rooms at Hollywood and Empress and tell them why you are choosing to go elsewhere. I don't assume they will wake up as a result, but you have to give it your best shot. Personally, I would rather not spend the extra time to go to Harrahs, and it turns out that weeknights are easier for me to get away, so I will continue to play at Hollywood. I just got back from a trip to San Jose where I had a chance to play at Bay101. The difference in quality of the operation is eye-popping.
Rich
Van Ollefen writes,"The difference in quality of the operation is eye-popping". Well said. That is exactly the reason, I am not an enthusiatic supporter of the current rooms, in Ind. and Ill.
I will be in Halifax, Nova Scotia in late September and was wondering if anyone has any experience playing poker in this neck of the woods? Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
I play primarily 7-Card stud. After reviewing info & free demo, I am considering purhasing the Wilson 7CS software for Windows. I would appreciate any comments from anybody has purchased and used it. Also, advice and warnings about any pitfalls it may have. Would like to hear about any other software or other related info on 7CS
Thanks in advance,
Jack
Excellent program.Analysis features are most helpful.However,as you use the program more you should rely on the advisor less and less.
I highly recommend the Wilson 7CS software. It is especially helpful in practicing the discipline necessary for the game, because since you can play thousands of hands in a short time, you can really see the difference between good and bad play.
One of the better aspects of the software is the ability to speed through hands you are not in, as well as the statistics generated, particularly the affect of the vig and tokes on the hourly rate. Another feature is the ability to obtain the current odds of making a particular hand, as well as an instant revelation of the current pot odds. This is a good way to check your own calculations during a hand.
I would agree with the previous poster regarding the adviser. In the beginning, it can be helpful, but the program is much better when you make your own decisions. Wilson properly does not claim that the adviser is all knowing or perfect. Rather, they call it a "powerful learning tool." As such, you should seek help from the written word (e.g. West et. al.) when confronted with strategic dilemmas, and then apply them to your play both live and on the computer.
I'm sure this was more info than you wanted, but I hope somewhere your questions were answered.
Hi, I bought it and holdem, I like them for all the above reasons, and one more. play it with all card up. that a good teaching tool to learn what the other hands are really like. have a nice day. ron
I dont use all cards up feature becuase you cant do that in a real game.
Thanks for all your Input. I just ordered it!
Jack
It's a very slick software . I like the feature where you can zip to the end of the hand . Stats are very useful if you play it long enough. Seems kinda resource intensive ( my resource meter goes way down when it's running [win98]). I'm very dissapointed in the AI . Seems too easy to beat even on the toughest settings after all I just break even in the casino yet I can destroy this game. I say get it if you are a beginner but if you know 7cstud well, save your money. John..
I know this has been asked a thousand times, but I've lost track of the answer. Does anybody know when ESPN is running the 1999 WSOP? Thanks.
At this time, it has been cancelled and may never be shown. Apparently Binion's withdrew the programming for in-house use. There have been a lot of short-sighted decisions regarding the WSOP since the hotel changed hands, but most have been eventually rectified. Hopefully this one gets another look also.
Has anyone been to the poker room at CHIP-IN'S in Harris, MI. I would like to know what games they spread and if the action is any good. Futhermore, I would like to know if the tourneys are worth playing.
I have played there twice in the last two weeks and have been going there on and off for the past 10 years.
Current card room is slow on action. It is 6 tables, with the most common game being either $2-5 or $5-10 Dealers Choice. Games to be called include Holdem, Omaha, Pineapple, and 7 Stud. All games can be played either straight high or hi/lo split with an 8 qualifier.
Saturday tourneys start at 1 pm EDT and generally have 2-3 tables. Weeknite tourneys are also held at 7:30 nightly with the best one being Monday nite because the house adds $500 to the purse. That one generally attracts 40-45 players.
In the past it was a great room. Now it is only a shadow of it's former self. In the past Phil Helmuth had played there along with Dewey Weums, Big Al Emerson and others.
If you go............tell them Diane from Green Bay sent you.
Diane
Before I read your response, I was there on Thursday nite. No poker games were being run at the time, but they did manage to fill two tables for the Omaha High tourney. I'm wondering where are all the players in MI?
Probably at the Soaring Eagle. Plus, the UP has always suffered from a kind of economic depression, so I imagine that there's few people up there who can afford to play anything higher than 6-12.
Before poker opened up in Mount Pleasant (Soaring Eagle) and the riverboats near Chicago/Indiana......Chip In was THE place to play in the midwest. Players came from all over.
Tournaments had 100+ players and games got as high at $25-50 on tournament or holiday weekends. The steady game was $10-20 HOldem with a unique structure that allowed a $20 bet on the flop and each subsequent street.
However, this cardroom was not really supported by the management of the indian casino and players gradually fell away to other venues. And yes, the locals did eventually start to thin out as their bankrolls dwindled. Players either learned the game and got better or went broke. Most went broke, but there are still a few that have survived. Some like me have just learned to travel farther and farther to find that game or to follow the tourney trail.
New room is a beautiful set up, it is too bad that there just aren't any customers left. Green Bay players traveled regularly there since it is only about two hours away. But now there are too many other places to play that are well run and better populated by players.
Diane
Diane-
Good to find someone who's up on the poker scene in the UP and Northern Wisconsin! I'm up in the UP all the time (my girlfriend's parents live in the M&M area) and aside from the Chip-In I know of no place to play cards. Is there a card room in Oneida? If not, where does everyone go (aside from the Soaring Eagle)?
Thanks,
Guy
I believe many people from WI and MI travel to the IL and IN riverboats. The Empress in Joliet, is a 50 mile drive from Downtown Chicago. There is also an Empress in Hammond and Harrah's in East Chicago (I think about a 30 mile drive). The Poker Room at the Empress in Joliet is open until 5:00 a.m. M-Th and on Fridays they close at 5:30 p.m. For the weekends you need to go to the boats in IN to play.
If you're ever in the area and decide to play, let me know. Don't forget to bring some of that "Cha-Ching" with you.
The rest of us cheeseheads, take a longer drive or hop a plane to go down to Tunica MS and the HORSESHOE casino. Well run room, beautiful Hotel attached so no worries about security.
Card room is the tops! Well run, professional dealers, great comps, and room rates are only $25 during the week and $35 on weekends.
I don't play in Chicago or IN because I don't want to play and then have to drive in order to get to my hotel room. None of the casinos in that area have an attached hotel/motel. Not worth the hassle and extra worry in my mind. Plus there are some limited hour venues and small rooms with major waits to get in a game.
Head to the Horseshoe in Tunica, you will find all you want and great action 24 hours a day.
Diane
Thanks for the info on Tunica. How cheap are the flights?
Chip-In is located "on the edge of the world". I wouldn't go all way up there just to play poker, because there is not that much action. However, you may find yourself up there, like I did. I was looking at a map and wondering what things looked like "way up there". So, one weekend the wife and I drove up there, "circled" Lake Michigan, back to Northern Illinois. I don't have a clue as to what life is really like up there, but it looks like a place where you could more or less, get away from "it all".
When I went up there, the poker room was empty. But, it's a great area for camping and fishing.
And the cost of living is next to nothing. You can rent a nice two bedroom apartment for about 2-300$, or buy a decent house for around 50 large. But the winters are a pain in the ass, and there's really not much to do.
BTW, what is UP with the new Detroit casinos??? Is is true that NONE of them are going to have a poker room. I'm moving back in December, and I can't believe I'm going to have to drive to frickin' Mt. Pleasant to get a hand dealt.
Forget about Mt.Pleasant. If you're going to drive that far, you should check out Harrah's in East Chicago. I was just there yesterday. The poker room was packed with long waiting lists for all the hold'em games. So, I decided to put my name on the list for Omaha 8 and was in the game in a half hour. I would say half the people sitting in this game were waiting for a hold'em game. The players in this game did not know how to play. For example, I was holding an Ace Duece and split the pot with the guy next to me holding the high hand. He complained to the dealer and asked why I got half the pot.
Harrah's has jackpots for all games.
Is there any address on the net where I can get into the results, over 20 Australians/New Zealanders have come over for the Orleans and the TOC. Thanks Dazzler.
Mike Paulle is posting the results and his write-up on the internet newsgroup rec.gambling.poker everyday. They are usually a good read, and provide you with all the names and a summary of the key hands.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hi folks,
I will be comming to Las Vegas next week. I enjoy 7CS more than hold'em and have been told that there is good 5-10, 10-20, and 15-30 stud games. I play in the LA area and am not that familiar with the games in vegas. Where are these games and what can I expect as far as competition?
R
On a typical Friday or Saturday night, what games 60-120 and up are spread at the Bellagio?
Hold 'em at $100-$200. Stud at $80-$160. Omaha eight or better at $150-$300. Other big games are also available usually at higher stakes,
Hi everyone. I am coming to LV on 7/21, and will be staying at the Orleans for the last 4 events of the Orleans Open. This is a bottom-budget trip, with nothing but poker on the itinerary. Therefore, I will not be renting a car. However, while I'm in town, I would enjoy getting out to the Gambler's Book Store to peruse their used books section. I would also like to get out to the Gambler's General Store (or a similar store) to pick up some used casino cards and some other knick-knacks. If anyone is going to be in LV between 7/21-26 and is planning on driving out to one of these establishments, a ride would be appreciated. If you can do this, please ask for me at the Orleans (I don't check in until late on 7/21), leave a message with my room, and let me know how to contact you so we can set up the meeting. Thanks in advance for your consideration.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg - This isn't the response that you wanted, but here goes. I won't be there then, but there is a decent bus service that runs up and down the strip, and I seem to recall that Gambler's Book Store is only 2 or 3 blocks off ths strip (CHECK THIS before acting on it). Ask the bell captain at the Orleans. I took the bus once when I was there without a car, staying on the strip, and wanted to go downtown.
Dick
I thought the forum would find this interesting. Of course we know, because of the rake and dealer tips, that the average player loses money playing poker - about $15 per hour by my guess here in Arizona. And if some of us are going to be long-term winners, then the others at the table will lose at a faster rate than this average.
It is rare to find a typical losing player who is aware of how much he is losing. The other day I met the exception. In a 3-6 stud game, I sat down next to a lady who told me that she keeps records for income tax purposes, and that in the last year she has lost $6,000 ! She said she comes anyway, for the fun of playing and the companionship at the table.
I played at this game with her for a few hours. Believe it or not, she didn't seem that bad! Typical player, looser than the book, but she was NOT the table idiot. Talked a good game, knowledgeable, good etiquette, etc.
I kind of don't know what to think. I guess it is people like this that keep our poker rooms running, pay the salaries of our dealer and floorperson friends, keep casino stocks going up, and provide the winnings for those (few?) people who can beat the game and come out ahead.
Floored in Phoenix, . . . Dick
I know a couple guys like this two. One of them, a friend of mine, is in for about 6500 this year, and he's lost all of it at the 2-5 tables. As far as I can tell it comes down to playing too many hands for a raise (at least in a spread limit game), going to far with these hands, and simply not having the ability to lay a hand down. Last night, for example, there was a hand where I had pocket A's in late position, and smooth called an old lady who raised up front. My buddy Paul giggled (I think you're tied, he said), and we saw the flop three handed. Flop: Qh 6s 3d. She bets, I raised, she re-raised, and I mucked. My other buddy (the big loser) was aghast, until I politely asked the old lady to show her hand. Want to guess what she had?
I don't have any concrete evidence, but my guess is that until you can lay hands down in these situations you simply can't count on being a winner. I don't care how well you play, pocket A's verse a set of Q's is an underdog, and the sooner you can recognize the situation the better off you are.
you play better than i do as i would figure she may also have kk or aa as well and i would be forced to call her down. also if you know she had a big pair why not reraise before the flop.
Ray-
IMExperinece, when a 70 year old lady bangs back at you, she's holding the stones. Of course, in the 2000-4000$ cash games you play in you don't see too many doddering retirees looking to play for an hour or two, but I see TONS of them, and WITHOUT EXCEPTION the women, at least, play this way. The lay down was a no-brainer, and if you'd been at the table for ten minutes I'm sure you'd have played it tAs for the decision not to pre flop re-raise, well, the game only has one blind, which means if I bang it again it's going to be heads up (and I usually like to see the flop with at least two other players when I've got a huge hand), and if she's got K's or Q's I wouldn't mind slowplaying (provided the blind folds anyway) if all undercards flop.
Trust me, Ray, it was not a tough laydown :)
of course when you are sure its correct and i have done the same as well. if you knew she had a big pair it would pay to get it headup rather than giving another a cheap flop as you are guaranteed action thru the hand unless the flop really spoils her hand.
I generally agree with this, but I wonder if it holds true in spread limit games, where anyone who cold calls the raise is making a wildly incorrect play. Since I 'know' (I hate that word, but here it is) that she's basically drawing dead, and that if she somehow hits I'll figure it out real fast, all I've got to worry about is the cold caller; and if he manages to flop top pair (or, in the case of mide pair) I'll get plenty of action from him all the way to the showdown.
In other words, it seems to me that it's one of those rare instances where you're getting whopping implied odds with A's, since you (I) should be able to get away from your hand fairly fast if your beat, but stand to rake a healthy pot if you're not.
Curious to hear your thoughts,
Guy
Well put. Often the advice given for better games is totally irrelevant in worse games. Old people I play with only come back with the stone cold nuts. The passive games I play in (and it sounds like you too) are worlds apart from what Ray is talking about. Good laydown.
I lost $1500.00 for the year ending 1998, after playing 10/20 Holdem, for an average of three days a week, for the entire year. Comments appreciated.
if you put over 1000 hours of your life into playing in a year how many hours did you study and improve your game so that you could be a winning player. believe me its much more fun to win 20,000 dollars after a 1,000 hours than to lose 1,500. good luck for next year.
Don - Down ONLY 75 big bets? I can double that. When I started 3-6 hold'em in January 99, I promptly went on a 40-hour, 150-big-bet losing streak. In about 150 hours since that "bottom," I have worked my way back to even!
Read Mason's "Standard Deviation" essays - I think they are in Gambling Theory and Other Topics. My opinion is that you might very well be a winner having a bad run of cards.
Calculate your standard deviation. (I am sure Mason will correct me if I screw this up!) The sigma per hour is about 20 BB = $400. For 1000 hours, multiply by the square root of 1000 ~= 32. Sigma for 1000 hours = 12,800. 95% of the time your 1000-hour result will be within 2 sigma, or $25,600, of your actual rate. So, to the 95% confidence level, your actual rate for 1000 hours of play is anywhere between -27,000 and +24,000 dollars (rounding a little). This range actually includes the hoped-for one big bet per hour rate of +20,000. This doesn't say you play at that rate !! Only that your statistics don't preclude it.
Keep monitoring your strategy and your results; post hands here and find out if your game has weaknesses; keep studying and keep thinking about any changes you should make to your game. And then think if you previously had any weaknesses that EXPLAIN some bad results. Good luck.
Dick
Thanks for the info. Your math shows me why I was ahead so much, but lost for the year. I will pay more attention to the math and "standard deviation" you mentioned.
20 BB/hr is pretty high. A more realistic number would be somewhere between 10 and 15 BB.
You got the final math wrong for you 1000 hour standard deviation. If a person's win rate is 1 BB/hr, then after 1000 hours they should be ahead $20,000. If 2 standard deviations is $25,600, then the 95% confidence interval is -$5,600 to $45,600.
Given that 20 BB/hr is a pretty high value, I'd say that any player that is down after 1000 hours of play can safely state that he is not playing a winning game.
Dan - Someone posted 20 BB per hour on the forum as an approximation - I don't remember who. That also tracked with my own statistics playing against TTH software, almost to the dollar. I accept your judgement of 10-15 BB as applied to a bigger game.
In your second paragraph, you and I came to the same conclusion in opposite directions - we don't disagree at all.
I calculated his 95% confidence range, centered on his result, and pointed out that the desired +20,000 number was within the range, therefore stastistically possible.
You started with the hypothesis that he does win at the rate of $20 per hour, and used the 2-sigma band to check the hypothesis; and since his result was greater than -5,600, his result DOES fit inside the hypothesis.
Same result.
Of course, if you do use 10 or 15 BB as an hourly sigma, then his result would not be within 2 sigma of +20,000.
Dick
AAAUGH ! I hate it when I screw up; won't be the last time either. My response to Dan was correct - someone posted an approximation to use for standard deviation per hour, and it matched my TTH play, but it was TEN big bets per hour, not twenty. Dan, maybe it was you that posted that.
Anyway, that makes the 2-sigma range for Don's record as plus/minus 12,800, and therefore he is not statistically likely to have a win rate of +20 per hour. But he still could very well be a winner, with his 2-sigma range being -14,300 to +11,300. (Did I get this arithmetic right? I sure hope so.)
Dick
I had a similar experience. I was chatting with a player who I considered to be one of the better players at the 5-10 limit. Not quite agressive enough, but only plays quality hands. He was telling me how happy he was with his poker results, because his wife made him open a poker bank account and only play with the original $5000 that he put into it. After 3 years, he had $1700 left, and it had been as high as $9000. He was really proud of that.
This shocked me, because I had figured him for a winning player. It drove home just how fine a line it is between being a winning player and being a breakeven or losing player. EVERY decision is important.
Dick said "...for those (few?) people who can beat the game"
I too have had people I thought were winners confide that they are down hundreds or thousands for the year. I estimate that 5% of the regulars show a profit each year in the $2-5 games where I play in Colorado. Any other guesses?
I would put the average loss at closer to $10 per hour - 40 hands an hour times 2.50 average rake divided by 10 players.
I don't find the figure of $6000 annually to be all that unusual for a mediocre 3-6 player. One or two big bets per hour is a few mistakes every few hours during an unlucky year, and a lot of low limit players play much worse, if not as regularly. I've seen many who must be throwing all their extra income into LL poker. How many low limit players (1) have the basic ability to beat nearly all of their opponents but (2) choose not move up while they (3) still maintain a healthy respect for the limits (all those $1, $2, or $3 bets) that they need to win? Over time, virtually nobody.
Dick,
Fair to good poker players can lose. Think about the typical poker player that has the knowledge and skill to break even given the rake. There are thousands of them. But even though they have the skill and knowledge and are not that bad as in the case of this lady they lack the necessary ingredient to be a winner. That is desire to win! They play when they shouldn't. they ply tired or for fun. But winning is only secondary. So what if they put in a loose call here and a loose call there. And that is why they are losers. The self discipline they need to not "call when they should fold", to make the right play is weakened by there non desire to win. Poker is a game of mistakes. Social players make the most costly mistake of all clling when they should fold. No different than dice player that stops at the craps table instead of walking on by. Let's gamble is their motto!
Vince.
Follow-up from previous posts: Posters may remember me bitching more than once that the 3-6 stud game spread in Phoenix, with a .50 ante and total rake + tip = $5, could not be beaten. Well, I just found out that Fort McDowell and Casino Arizona removed the ante from their 3-6 stud games some time ago. And usually, the players are just as loose as before. Since I started playing stud again, I am up about $200 in less than 20 hours of play. (And the hold'em games are still very loose at this limit too.)
I recommend the stud game, depending of course on who is in it, to any 3-6 level players in Phoenix.
Dick
it shows to go ya how important the structure is in smaller limit poker as it determines whether or not you can win. in bigger limits the structure will determine how you need to play. the same goes for the rake except in bigger games the rake becomes much smaller in proportion to your earn. that is why all players should (imho) try to progress to a higher limit say 10&20 or higher where a reasonable living can be earned by the better performers.
Ray - You seem to have given your answer to the question I used to ask. I always said that I DID NOT HAVE a strategy to beat the 3-6 stud game with a .50 ante and jackpot+rake+tip at a max $5. I still don't, and I refuse to play it.
I have a plan to move up in limits as I win at each lower limit. I certainly recognize that the 3-6 limit I am at now is probably the toughest hurdle I will ever face, because of the high percentage rake. There is a certain irony in that, isn't there?
I remember well the quote from 7CSFAP, Don't just jump into the 15-30 game, or "you will get killed." (Is that you talking, Ray?) I started out with a solid winning strategy, I think, when I went up in limits to 3-6 hold'em. But after 200 hours in the game, I can clearly see ways in which my game has matured. And I can tell, primarily from posts here, that there is a hell of a lot of maturing yet to come. So I am happy to make some more of my non-mature plays at the lower limits.
One piece of good news for me - from comments that Jim Geary has posted here, I get the idea that as soon as I have the bankroll, I can move, because the opposition in Phoenix doesn't get much tougher as you move up.
Hope to see some of you guys at 15-30 at the Bellagio in about a year.
Dick
This is not true! The games here are real tough! If you do not live in the Valley, please stay where you are! I'd hate to feel responsible for any aspiring pro coming to Phoenix and getting chewed up by the very extremely tough local competition.
JG
Dick,
i suspect you are ready to move up some now (you wont get killed). 10%20 is a good spot as most of the time that limit is reserved for mostly weak players. take a few shots at it with $300 and you will get over the hump within a couple of tries. also the jackpot drop is not all lost to you like the rake is as you can hit the darn things. there is proof of that in some person named Guy is running around all the cardrooms in various states making weird arm motions and mutterring a noise like an antique cash register.
If I have to change my seat again, because of a smoker: If I hear another runoff-at-the-mouth dealer: If someone asks, "Lemme' see dat hand". I am now accepting advice on Carribean Stud, Blackjack, Three Card Poker, Pai Gow Poker, and anything else found in a casino, except slots. I'll even accept some advice on craps. And, August starts my "renewed" approach to sports betting. Let me hear from you. I don't care about "positive expectation". I just need to spend some 4 hour sessions in a casino, without losing my shirt.
Woulda hate us if we told ya' you could probably bound your loses best at Keno (since the game moves so slow)?
Here's a winning approach to craps:
Just do what I do. Load up on Heineken's, dump money on the pass line, sneer at the 'non-believers' (no-pass line betters) and pray like hell. Using this approach, I've managed to lose about 2200 dollars in the past five years...
Play Poker!
Vince.
I have written very similar posts at times when either to fault of my own or due to bad run of cards I got tired of poker. I never followed through more than a few weeks and always came to the conclusion that poker is not a bad bet if played correctly. There are other worthwile endevours besides poker there ARE NOT other casino games !! When you go into the casino and play other table games, NO MATTER what you bet - you lose your edge !!!!! I can't comment on sports betting. If you are saying you will quit gambling altogether you know HOW PLAUSIBLE that sounds ???
SS - The only thing I can't change for you is the smokers. If you want to play with a minimal house edge, just playing blackjack with a perfect basic strategy (i.e., not counting cards but just always doing the right thing), the house edge is usually less than 1% (depending on where you play and the rules, of course). And if you choose to apply the same mental energy you have been applying to poker to keep track of a simple plus-minus count, you will (again depending on where) actually have an edge.
Throw this discussion over to the "other games" forum and we can discuss your strategy, your counting method, and where you play.
Dick
Well, even if I had a 1-2% edge over a multi billion dollar institution (that has the right to catalog me, spy on me - via hidden cameras etc. etc.) randomly through me out if I win too much - what good is that ? In poker you, at times operate at a much higher edge, MUCH MUCH bigger that this. I know that BJ can be very profitable but for the sake of argument of an edge it is no contest. I am not sure of current conditions and laws of BJ but I would even hate to give my business to those who operate at such a despecable way. (ie. CASINOS) "Expectations is not everything" who said that ????
I agree with everything you say. I play mostly poker these days. I simply answered his question, "If not poker, then what so I don't suffer a huge house edge?"
Again in answer to his question, if he just plays perfect basic strategy, doesn't count cards, and doesn't vary his bet size, he will lose less than at most other games and be able to spend those 4 hour sessions in a casino. And probably get some comps, too, depending on where and on bet size.
Dick
Actually, for someone who just wants to amuse themselves for a few hours, Craps is the least expensive.
A Pass-Line bet with double odds will only lose .61%. That's $.61 out of every $100 bet. And you don't have to study any strategy or memorize tables. You can just play.
Your drinks are free, and if you play high enough, your meals and room will be free also.
Sounds like fun to me!
Brett
Tomorrow, the 15th. I'll be staying at the Excalibur (PLEEASE, don't all laugh at once- my buddy's friend is having his wedding there, so my hands were tied), so give me a call if any of you want to hang out.
Thanks,
Guy Downs
There's nothing wrong with playing cards at the Excalibur. But dressing up in chainmail and a codpiece to watch someone get married, now that's embarrassing. (Remember to park your lance before the deal).
Guy,
This response is a bit dated but what the hell. Several years ago my cousin got married in Las Vegas with her family from North Carolina in attendance and I was invited. It was the second marriage for her so I was grateful not to be the only black sheep in the family.
Anyway, I stayed at the Alladin where they had a mid sized tournament going on which did nothing for their poker business. My cousin stayed at the Luxor and got married in the chapel at Treasure Island. So my location was a mid point (and OK for the Mirage).
It was quite a week. Hanging with my cousin and her family was a blast, we did all the tourist things, etc.
I entered two Omaha H/L tournaments. In one I got to the final table and got lucky and all of a sudden was chip leader with three left. When Robert Turner gets knocked out third, I have a six to one chip lead on Linda Johnson (from Card Player and by the way an excellent Omaha H/L player). First hand we get head up I get a 666 x and toss it and a shiver goes dowm my spine. I'm not supposed to be superstitous (sp?). She scoops me six hands in a row to win the tounament and in every hand I was in pretty decent shape (or so I thought).
Anyway, I hope you had/have a great time!
Regards,
Rick
What a tale. Actually, in the Omaha games I play in those trip 6's are considered a premium hand. Hard to let go of those quad draws...
Anyway, we had a blast. And next time, when you SMOKE Linda heads up, be sure to post THOSE hands as well :)
How good is this book? I have reached the point where a serious study of the odds seems appropriate. Not that I have not been serious all along.
The question does not contain that much information about what you are attempting to accomplish.
I don't think the book is too useful for playing unless you are planning to check calculations that results are widely available for, or process some mathematical ideas you have come up with. The book is ok for what it attempts to do, which is a fairly narrow niche of odds calculation and little to do with strategy for playing.
You don't say what other material you have but I would think everyone should study:
Theory of Poker
HFAP 21st century
Poker Essay's I and II
Bob Ciffone's book
Roy Cooke's book
Lee Jones (for new players)
Mike Caro's book of tells.
That is my current must read list. I would look at quite a few more books if one is not too concerned with the cost.
David
Thank you David. I have and have read, and reread all of the above except Ciffone. I have been a tiny bit lazy on the math side and since that's all his book is about I just wondered if others found it useful. I could not find an opinion in Malmuth's GAMBLING THEORY AND OTHER TOPICS, most poker books are reviewed in Appendix A.
So where to you play?
Hey, what about adding Vince Lepore's posts to that list!
Vince, I mean anonymous!
I am sorry for being so dense. What list?
Dave,
What can you tell me about Roy Cooke's book. It is apparently endorsed by the 2+2 authors.
Does it have material for the 7 Card Stud Player or is it primarily an HE book. Or something else again?
What is the best method to clean the KEM Plastic Poker cards (casino quality)?
Thanks in advance for your replies...
Dead
Assuming its a first time cleaning,try Windex.If they have gotten old,get a new deck.
I will staying in Redmond, WA for few months. Can you please recommend good cardrooms. I am mainly in interested in holdem and stud games.
Thanks, Jay
The Emerald Queen, south of you, near Tacoma. The Hideaway, off I-5, at 145th, north of the U district. The Hideaway has been good for ten-twenty. There are good stud games, without an ante, 1-4 at Skagit Valley Casino 1 3607240226, just off I-5, about 45 min. north. Good ten-twenty all the way up to Bellingham, about an hour, at the Slo Pitch 1 3607332255 on friday, saturday and monday at 7, call ahead. Thursday, about forty min. north. at 8 in Burlington at the Sports Keg 1 3607577826 there is a nice tourney with a good ten-twenty or four-eight after. The Sports Keg ten-twenty looked weak tonight so I came home.
For 10-20 hold-em, you can't beat The Hideaway. At least one game going by noon, and often 3 to 4 in the evening. Some solid players, but lots of loose-passive, weak-tight, and calling station live ones as well. Some of the games can get pretty wild in the evening.
tonight there´s gonna be a poker-tourney-broadcast in the uk. could somebody in the uk make a videotape of this programm an contact me afterwards via e-mail? i´d love to have a copy of it. (of course i´m gonna pay for it)
my e-mail-adress is: aigner.martin@vienna.at
regards
M.A.
Marty is one of the vienna guys that got rich from playing good poker so he can certainly pay for the tape. after he gets it i hope he will write in a review for the rest of us poor slobs.
I saw it on TV last night and I thought it worked pretty well. The main thing is, if I hadn't played before (or if I had seen it two years ago) it would have really encouraged me to go out and play and that can only be good for the game.
To recap the structure for those who don't know, 40 players were invited (I believe according to the European ranking list) to put up £1500 each to play. There were five single-table satellites from which the winner gets £8000 in the final and the runner-up £4000. The final is then played for £60,000 in total, very heavily weighted towards the top prize (£40,000). I understand that deals were frowned upon but can't confirm that.
The event was not filmed in a casino (I believe this is a key factor) but in a warehouse all set up for TV, using professional dealers, with a special table which had a perspex rim so that hole cards were visible.
Commentary was by Jesse May (Shut Up and Deal) and Nic Szeramata. I was a touch disappointed they didn't go too deeply into tournament strategy but seeing as they were pitching to such a wide audience this is understandable.
As for the play, it was certainly interesting especially as it got down to short-handed. It was quite an eye-opener for me to see Liam Flood (did he place in the WSOP ?) umming and ah-ing and generally "giving an Oscar-winning performance" as the commentator said when he had an unbeatable hand ! I thought that kind of stuff wouldn't work at a high level (although on this occasion it didn't anyway as Liam failed to elicit a call). There were also a couple of big bad beats, but these do happen and in general it painted a fair picture of how the game works. If I have one reservation, the editing was so smooth that a lay-man would not appreciate how many uninteresting hands must have been played out in between the juicy ones, but that's a minor point.
If anyone in the States has TV connections, you really ought to check this out, it could be a winner. The key is, rather than filming an existing tourmanent, you set one up specifically for the purpose of being filmed. Then you can set it up how you like and make it work.
Finally, to the original poster, sorry I can't help you with a video but if you chcek the EPPA site I think the organisers are trying to sort something out.
Andy.
The Discovery Channel is going to be filming a documentary about the world of tournament poker also, but from the view point of a recreational player.
There will be a new series on the Discovery Channel called American Journey in early 2000. Each show or "journey" will profile any otherwise ordinary everyday person who takes a special journey or does something unique.
One of these shows will be about a recreational poker player traveling to the inaugural Tournament of of Champions later this month. They are filming it now with some background information, and will continue in Vegas starting with July 24th and then shadowing the recreational poker player during the actual TOC. Player will be wearing a radio microphone so table talk will be recorded during the event. Cards won't be shown during play, but it will at least profile poker and how ordinary everyday people with regular lives do play poker. I believe it is designed to upgrade the "Rounders" image of poker and show that it is becoming totally socially acceptable for people to play poker.
We aren't quite at the level of acceptance as someone who plays tournament bridge or golf, but this type of show may help kill some of the ugly stereotypes people have about poker.
I will post when the show is set to be broadcast for those that might be interested in watching.
Diane
i just read that the gambling ['cuse me, *gaming*] age at this Michigan casino is 18.
Is this true and does that include the poker room?
TIA
It's very much true - even in the poker room. But if you're one of them young'uns you can't get any alcohol in the casino. That's 21 and over. Call them if you'd like:
1-800-7EAGLE7
Does anyone know of any private clubs in Ottawa, Ontario? I'm just learning the game, and am not all that keen on making the drive to Port Perry.
A person recently posted to RGP offering introduction if you email him. I use to have an address of one in Ottawa but you wouldn't get in without an introduction.
Can anyone tell me about conditions at the Bay 101 Club in San Jose? I am particularily interested in 6-12 to 15-30 HE. I've never played there and was wondering if the hour+ drive was worth it. thanks.
I haven't played that much 15-30 but a fair amount of 6-12 at Bay 101.
There are often 3 or 4 6-12 games and for 15-30 there will be a main and a must-move and a third must-must-move game during the busy hours.
I am not sure exactly what you want to know. The 6-12 is usually quite an easy game to play with several extremely poor players in most games. The 15-30 is quite often tougher but the same weak 6-12 players often take shots and there are probably quite a few weak regulars. It may be better to avoid the 15-30 if bigger games like 30-60 are not going unless you are familiar with the specific players.
Hope that helps.
David
Thanks for the response David. I did not know the limits at Bay 101 so I said 6-12 to 15-30. But I am more interested in 6-12, or 9-18 or 10-20 if they have on of them.
It's good to know they have several 6-12 games going. I guess you told me the games are good so I'll give it a try. I can probably get there only on weekends. Are games on Sunday lively?
No 9-18 or 10-20. They have 2-4, 3-6, 6-12, 15-30 and sometimes 20-40, 30-60 and schedule some 60-120. There is 9-18 at Lucky Chances in Colma.
Sunday is OK. Things seem to be slowing down a little everywhere becuase of the summer I guess.
I apologize for apparently upsetting you as you continue to give me digs. My whole person for the belongs here post was so that many more people could begin to be interested in a live chat room for 2+2 in which to discuss poker. Few people have responded however I feel that if such a chat room was made available it would be greatly used. Joe"predator"Nardo
That's it, just hide it over here on the exchange ;-)
Which way should I go? I am in the Sacramento area and want to play some Hold'em Poker. Contrary to what others may say, there are no poker rooms in Sacramento. I have played at Lucky Chances in the Bay Area and liked it, played the Oaks in Emmeryville and it was just alright. It is 100 miles to the bay area and 100 miles to Tahoe/Reno. Are the games much different in Nevada than I have played in California? I have heard good things about the Peppermill in Reno and Harvey's in Tahoe but they look to be smaller rooms and just wondering if the games are that much better. I would consider myself a novice but have fun and like to play. I have won the last 2 times I have played so wondering if I should stay in California or venture into Nevada. Any thoughts on game differences between the two places. Driving distance is about the same any which way so that is not the deciding factor. I am looking for good games that are somewhat loose/aggressive. I usually play 3-6 or 5-10.
What would you do? I appreciate all the help.
Tommy "Ace" Ventura - No relation to "The Body"
Ace,
there are cardrooms in your area closer than 100 miles that have games. nevada is ok if you can stand sitting next to smokers, i cant anymore. lifes too short and why make it shorter(my opinion). in nevada the rake may be less and it may be more fun in a full casino or not.
The Sacramento part of Ken's poker page (http://www.best.com/~mentorms/poker/casino/sacramento.htm) lists over 15 different poker rooms in the Sacramento area. Are they all dead? You might look around Ken's page for other places close to home. There are rooms listed in Tracy and Stockton that are closer then Reno/Tahoe.
I havn't ever played in Reno although I know you have more choice then just the Peppermill. Both Circus Circus and El Dorado spread games and if you really like smoke I believe Cal Neva also spreads a game.
In Tahoe Harvey's is the only place on south shore to play. The Hilton on the north shore is open part time but seems to focus on 10-20 pineapple. I've played at Havey's several times. They almost always have a little stud game and a 2-6 HE game going (sometimes with overs to 2-12). Other times you'll see stud/HE/or Omaha up to 10-20 with a 1K buyin NLHE game (don't know the stakes) on the weekends. Other then weekends this room can be filled with local rocks. I don't find the smoke to be too bad although the tables closest to the VP bar can be pretty rank at times.
You might want to try the California Grand in Pacheco. It is closer to you than San Pablo and the have 3/6, 6/12, 9/18, and 12/24 Holdem games. (The last two mainly on weekends). They also have 4/8 Omaha8 with a 1/2 kill.
Rick Nebiolo always has to go quickly or run somewhere. just where does he go? i know he works at the commerce club and is a good poker player but what about the ants in his pants?
in california smokers must go outside to smoke, and as a result...
His wife recently has surgery (I think on her leg), so I think he's been busy tending to her, as well as keeping up with his responsibilies at work.
BTW, Rick, hope all his going well with your better half. Much luck to you, and give her my best.
Thanks GD. She was a prop at the Normandie for a while and I can gaurentee she was always great for the table in the political sense. People liked to play with her even though she was a rock.
Brad,
Don't smoke but am one of the few left who wouuld rather play with smokers (other things being equal}. I do like to go outside to watch the airlines opproach LAX and I get the second hand smoke for free from the patio.
Rick
Actually, I think Rick works at Hollywood Park.
It really does take a lot of time to keep up with these forums, RGP, and my other internet interests, not to mention business.
Gotta Run,
Brett
What business?
You didn't think I made my bankroll playing 3-6 did you?
Brett
ray,
in your honor i won't use caps. my mother used to say that about me! how did you guess? anyway, i work at hollywood park days in the low limit omaha/stud/holdem/stud h/l section and usually cover about ten to fourteen tables by myself with about one chip runner. unfortunately for me, that is the relaxing part of my day!
i post because my mind now has too many short circuits to relax by reading a book or watching tv like a normal human being. as i write this i am cleaning the kitchen and playing internet poker. if you turn the volume up you can hear the shuffle. when i play ten/twenty i'll cut out the household chores. anyway, i'm new to windows computing but someone told me that is called multi-tasking.
regards :-)
rick
p.s. sandie selzer wanted me to say hi on her behalf
say hi back to sandie and see yall in the fall.
Where are the best 10-20 games, Taj or Trop?
Will 15-30 be more profitable or are the players significantly better than 10-20?
Are the stud games better than holdem at those levels in Atlantic City?
1. The best 10-20 games are at the Taj.
2. Just as many animals play 15-30 as play 10-20.
3. More "tourists" play stud.
I have both versions of this book, IMHO I think 21C is 10x's more informative not only on THIRD STREET which is excellent for me personally, but the thoroughness of the remaining streets are great, from the Psychology section to the RYP (Randomizing Your Play) section. Also the questions at the end are great. I'm not just blowing sunshine either because I try each and every one of your theories with a few of my own based on what you three have written and they have been successful for the most part. That's all I want, is to have a better chance of winning, and also to enjoy my time playing.
Thank You Again S&M&Z
Paul
Ignore the man behind the black curtain. I wrote this not SMZ. Sorry for the confusion.
Paul
Paul,
ill have Mason mail out your check for plugging the new book or you can take an all expense paid trip to the acronym book writers convention.
Ray:
The check is ready to go out. Remember, the full amount plus my handling fees are deducted from your royalties.
Your pal, Mason
A friend of mine who is not wired was looking for the Insurance odds used in Pot Limit Hold-em. I told him I would try and get them for him. If anyone has them or can point me to where they may be listed please contact me.
Thanks Randy
Anybody have any info on the poker room at Soaring Eagle in Mt. Pleasant, MI?
I played there once during the week. I had to wait a fairly long time to get into a game. I finally took a seat in a low limit ($3-$6) 7-stud game. It was incredibly loose. My strategy finally came down to waiting for a good hand the shoveling as much money into the pot as possible, because there was nothing I could do to drive a couple of total suckers out. They insisted on seeing all seven cards in about 80-85% of the hands. I asked a regular player there if the games were always that loose. He told me that they usually are loose but not as loose as they were that night.
The casino offered hold'em, Omaha 8, and 7 stud 8 as well. I can't remember the Omaha stakes. The 7 stud 8 was 2-10 spread limit. The hold'em got as high as $10-$20, but no games that high were going the day I was there. All in all, I found it a fun place to play. The town itself strikes me as being fairly depressing, though. I can't really explain it rationally.
They spread a lot games there:
7-stud 2-6,6* 2-10 6-12
7-stud hi-lo 8 or better 2-10* 20-40
Omaha hi-lo 8 or better 2-4 6-12 w/half-kill* 10-20 15-30
Hold'em 4-8* 6-12* 10-20* 15-30 20-40
*These games are spread all or most of the time. The others are mostly on the busy weekend days.
You generally don't have to wait too long for a game, but occassionally the poker list gets unbearably long. The rake is 10% up to $4 in all games. And you get a comp at the buffet for 6 hours of play.
Does anyone know when they will be showing the 1999 WSOP on the Discovery Channel or ESPN???
Thanks,
Dice
Rumour is Binion's and EPSN have put the production on hold and it will NOT appear on any TV channels.
I am going to LA during the Commerce's Heavenly Holdem tournament. Does this mean that all the Holdem action will be at the Commerce? Does anyone know what the 20-40 and 40-80 games are like at Hollywood Park during such tournaments at the Commerce?
Since Rick won't answer you. I will.
The games at HP are a little slower during commerce tournaments, but there is still plenty of action.
The lists are also shorter, making it easier to get into a game.
Brett(and I don't work there)
Actually, I didn't see the post as I am not on line too much on the weekend. We did have good action.
BTW, my friends and I tend to avoid the room with the tournament. Our main reasons are:
1. Tournaments tend to siphon off the better players from the clubs that don't have them. This leaves fewer but better games in the club without the tournament.
2. Mid sized tournaments tend to attract the better out of town players. Who needs that.
On the other hand, a tournament in Los Angeles is the only time you can find a decent mid limit Omaha H/L game.
Regards,
Rick
Hi everyone,
I am leaving Las Vegas after I post this message. I will be on the road for the next two weeks. Heading for Boston Massachusetts. Driving Highway 80. Any info on places to play 10-20 to 20-40 Holdem/7 Stud along the way would be appreciated. I am making a stop in Madison, Wi and will be in the Chicago area for a while. BTW - Anyone on the way that has a room for a poor (in more ways than one) poker player let me know. Cheap hotel info also appreciated!
See ya at Fox Woods!
Vince.
In Chicago aera lots of reasonably priced motels on LaSalle street near the downtown aera. Go to showboat in Indiana of the skyway for poker. Rake is high but you will do okay if you are a solid player.
I am sure Mel Segal was trying to be helpful. However, anyone travelling through Chicago by auto, would be wise to avoid entering the city, if you are not on a sightseeing venture. The hotel rates in downtown Chicago are very high,(if you are a wealthy tourist,and there are many, you won't mind). The traffic is horrendous, during the daytime. Folks who drive through the Chicago area and want reasonable accomodations usually stay at motels near the expressways, on which they travelled to the area. Those areas are usually located in the suburban areas, which surround Chicago. If you want to sight-see Chicago, drive in with the surburban communuters. I-80 will take you directly to the Empress, in Joliet Ill. (exit 34A),which has an eight table room. It will also take you to the Cline Ave. exit (north), which is about ten minutes into the state of Indiana (eastbound). Cline Ave. will take you to Harrah's, the main poker facility in the area.
Greetings:
Let me know when your in Madison, WI and we'll do lunch if you have the time. 251-2714.
Joe Niederkorn
Vince,
Can offer a night's boarding in Chicago in exchange for any poker wisdom. Could you post an e-mail address?
Good luck.
Dan Z.,
If you have read any of my posts you will readily see that there is an obvious lack of wisdom. However, I can offer a "good" discussion, Thanks for your offer.
leporeva@hotmail.com
Thanks,
Vince Lepore
If you are interested in PL, there is a great game that meets on Monday nights at the Miss Marquette, in Marquette IA. The room rate there is $25 per night. Good buffet for 5 hours of play.
I get frustrated in trying to read the forum. I haven't figured out yet how to simply read one section, then skip whatever doesn't interest me, and read another.
I have to jump back to the message index everytime I finish; then scroll all the way down through the messages until I find something interesting, or something I am looking for.
Is there a better way of doing this?
ME TOO. Please help us.
Arrange things in chronoligical order. Seems to help me!
Vince.
Hey Vince!
I didn't even get to say goodbye. Hope you aren't too sore about me pointing out your shortcomings on the forum. I wouldn't have said those things if they weren't true.
Seriously, I hope to 3-Bet you again soon. Let me know what's happening at FW.
Brett
My short what?
No such ting!
Will be happy to allow you the opportunity to 3 Bet me again. So don't fret old 3 Bet Brett. You'll see me (again) yet!
Vince.
Vince-
You may want to check out the casino in Council Bluffs, Neb., as I think they spread mid limit HE. I'm not sure if any of the casinos in the Quad cities spread poker (Davenport, Iowa area) but it could be worth a phone call.
Best of luck in Conn.!
You may want to try the Empress in Joliet (Chicago area). It's the first exit after the intersection of I-80 and I-55. They spread 6-12, 10-20, 20-40 hold'em, 1-5, 2-10, stud, and 10-20, 20-40 Omaha H/L. Their poker room is open on M-Th until 5:00 a.m. and they close early at 5:30 p.m on Fridays. This is the room I frequent the most because it's close to home, someone may want to post infomation on the others that are in IN off of I-80. The limits for the games change everyday at this place, so you may want to call ahead of time. The rake for the games are $5. Sometimes they do not spread the bigger limits.
They have their own hotel on site and you may want to call for rates. I don't have their number handy, but I think you can find it in Card Player.
Vince,
"Leaving Las Vegas" --- were you in that movie?
Good luck on your road trip. Post us some comments/experiences/results along the way. I-80 Iowa-Illinois Quad Cities has casino poker in Davenport (pronounced Damm-port by locals) and Bettendorf.
A player of your quality should just head to the Showboat (now a Harrahs) in East Chicago, Indiana. I was there last weekend, and may go again this weekend. They had three tables of 20-40 and one of 10-20 holdem. Take the Skyway from downtown Chicago. See if you can avoid I-80 from Joliet to the Indiana State Line----its real congested and under construction.
On your return trip, try a different route. Go a little south thru St. Louis, then Kansas City, then Albuqurque, back to LV.
----This coupon good for one tour of St. Louis Cardrooms----
Give me a yell if St. Louis can be on your route. We have 20-40, sometimes 15-30 or 10=20. But always a red chip game either downtown (Admiral) or St.Charles.
Abe
Abe,
Baby, just for you! My first stop. You won't believe it. The Casablanca Resort and Casino in MESQUITE NV. 77 mi. from Vegas. I'm playing 2-8 spread limit Omaha and Holdem. They are comping me my room. Butr so what I'm behind $400 in two sessions. I am relaxing and enjoying. Don't know how long I will stay, Will keep you updated.
Thanks for info and support.
Vince.
Vince I figured your ETA for FW arrival at 14:20 12/24/99. I'll expect a nice X-Mass present when you arrive at FW.
Have a safe trip.
Paul
Abe,
I was at Harrah's last Friday evening. The action was very good. They had one 20-40, two 10-20, one 3-6-12 hold'em; two 1-5 stud, one 2-10 stud, one 10-20 stud, and one 4-8 Omaha H/L. The place was packed.
I will be there this Friday evening for Omaha. I hope your last trip was good.
Yes it was---thanks mah.
I went (again) last friday from 9pm till 2. Played the Omaha 4-8 while waiting for Hold'em. Real loose game----8,9, or all seeing the flop. By the time I got there, one of the 10-20 games had switched over to 20-40 and they had added a third 20-40 table. The two 20-40 must move tables were wild. The 10-20 game was much tighter and tamer.
They also had 30-60 Stud, and a 50-100 HOSE ----but we'll let Vince deal with that when he gets there.
I like that Omaha game just for what you said. Half the people in that game are either waiting for a hold'em or stud game and do not play Omaha well.
On your return trip, you might consider coming a more middle of the country route to play more casinos. If you're coming back I-80, pick up I-71 south outside of Cleveland and swing through Cincinnati and Louisville on the way to Tunica (south of Memphis but not far from I-40 which will bring you back to Vegas).
There's a riverboat at Rising Sun, Indiana (across the river about 15 miles south of Cincinnati) where you can find a better 20-40 stud game than you'll ever find in California even at higher limits, and a 20-40 game at Caesar's Indiana riverboat (across the river about 5-10 miles west of Louisville). Note that you'll only find the 20-40 games on the weekends, but if you happen to get unlucky as to your arrival times, the 10-20 games are like shooting fish in a barrel.
Of course, since you're headed the wrong direction during the TOC, we do expect a trip report (even if you have to tap it out on a PDA). Perhaps you had a stroke of genius and considered that there wasn't a better time to be playing anywhere but Vegas right now?
No Stroke of Genius here. I had been planning on leaving Vegas for some time. I finally left because I was doing very poorly in the O'rleans open. I played in 4 events and finished between 60 and 70 in all of them. I recovered my buy-ins in the 20-40 Holdem game but I was ready for a long break. So where am I. Mesquitre NV. Playing 2-4-8-8 Holdem. At times it has to be the softest game in the world. I consider myself a big favorite, yet I am not ahead very much. Oh well that's life. For you Vegas pro's. This is a great get away. In the middle of nowher with a great pool. Nothing to do but hang around and play some low limit Holdem. there is also a free tournament on Sundays if you play 10 hours during the previous week. Pice of cake for you guys. They comp you all the Buffet's you can eat. Room rate is just $18 unless you can sweet talk the poker room manager (or play a lot of poker). I am leaving here in the morning. But enjoyed my stay.
Vince.
So what was that saying about "each man rises to his own level of incompetence?"
That is the "Peter Principle" my friend. You are talking to Mr. Personification. What's your story?
Vince.
Still rising...Next stop: Albuquerque pot-limit, then on to Hollywood Park. After that, maybe I'll come to FW and knock you down a peg ;o).
We take our poker very seriously here on the east coast, are you so sure you're ready?
Vince, look me up when you get to FW. I'm running strong on two sessions a week at this time. Friday day and swing shifts, followed by Saturday grave shift. Rest of week off! 10-20 1/2-kill at $145 pot rake $4 max (10-20-80-160) no flop no rake, is the main hold'em action here. There have been some straight 20-40 spread more frequently the past two weeks though. There's whatever you're looking for if 7-stud is of any interest. High limit 75-150 1/2&1/2 and up happens most weekends, but might go sometimes as stud only. Low limit Omaha-8 and low spread limit (2-10) H/L 7-stud keeps three or four tables going.
I'm also going on the road, Kansas City for a couple of weeks next month, so maybe I'll catch up to you when I get back.
Andrew,
Will look you up when I get there. Gotta go now. Gonna play in a tourney at the Casa Blanc in Mesquite NV. If you get out this way. Stay at the Casa Blanca $18 Room Rate. Free Food. and great pool. The games are a little low. Mostly 2-4-8-8. but soft. They tell me they play 6-12 to 10-20 after October.
Vince.
I currently travel only as far west as Santa Fe. BTW they really know how to treat the players at Cities Of Gold.
That joint has been open long enough (made enough money) to start spreading poker. Don't believe poker is, in any way foreign to the folks, who operate that joint, just because it is across the border. Half of it is owned by an American gaming company. Persons in Canada who post queries to this, and other forums, should start writing letters to Casino Windsor.
Absolutely Don,
I just recently moved to Detroit and have to drive 2 1/2 hours to find a game in Soaring Eagle. With the new casinos opening in downtown Detroit, Casino Windsor has some tough competition. Now would be the time for them to introduce poker and try to retain some of the customers they will undoubtedly lose to Detroit.
The newly named Mandalay Group(Luxor,MCarlo,Exc,Circus,MBay) recently increased their Holdem rake to 10%. It seems every effort is being made to take as much from tourist as possible while doing nothing to promote local,regular business,as a consequence many of these rooms are frequently dead.
vote with your feet, 10% is hwy robbery even with a cap on it. if the cap is small and the games are great it can still be beat but why live in aggrevation when you can play elsewhere. for those that cant complain so much that they may do something to stop the annoyance(they may bar you) or just go along till your money runs out. good luck.
Not that I would want to justify this high rake, but one thing I have noticed is that just judging a game on rake can be misleading. It seems that the old adage that a game that cant be beat will cease to exist is true. I have been in some of the highest raked games around and guess what? The action has been incredible! Go down to Mississippi and see for yourself how high the rake is, but then see how many bets go into the pot and see how many times that cap is hit by about the time the flop is bet, and better yet...see how few times they don't reach the cap. Sure it would be nice to have a lower rake, but I have come to the conclusion that tight players go so far out of their way to avoid high rakes that they usually leave wide open games behind them. Now maybe you don't want to play in wide open games, but its at least something to think about next time you think about how low the rake is in the Vegas rooms and then you think how nice it would be if the Vegas games had a couple more live ones.
having a higher rake only takes away the money. ive seen it many places as you described but it is because the games are still relativly new that with a high rake there is still action. if the rakes are too high sooner or later the action will stink. the producers end up losing too often and fast and give up the game. the one thing many people dont think about is that since the loose players play so many hands the rake really eats them up. after awhile they never book any winning sessions and quit playing very much.
Speaking of rakes, what are good rates -- $3 max or 10% of pot, etc...
And which is better, seat charge or rake?
Dead
5% to $3 is a fair rake. Atlantic City rooms usually rake 10% to $4. I think Foxwoods is 10% to $3 with another $1 taken out at $80. Foxwoods and Atlantic City don't have them, but rooms with a $1 jackpot drop are effectively increasing the rake. Rake benefits tight players, while all players play the time charge equally. (In games with many weak-tight players, a solid tight-aggressive player can actually pay a higher than average share of the rake.) I might prefer a time charge, since it would cut down on walking.
Ok, I'll preface this by saying despite this message I'm not an active person politically and I think the media is a joke in this country and I'm not expressing a political view on this topic! Because frankly I can see both sides.
That being said.
Just received my 21C HPFAP yesterday and I guess was surprised that the cover art still is dominated by this huge gun (surrounded by "what a concept" a poker hand) similar to the Hi/Lo book in my library by Zee.
Why? What is the significance of this huge gun?
Here I'm trying to convince my wife (and 8 year old son) that the poker I play 2 1/2 hours away is safe and in a controlled environment and the seminal work of HE is dominated by a six shooter on the cover. (I won't even get into the cr@p going on with guns in our country right now)
Dont get me wrong at all. I can tell already that this will be a profitable book as I continue to play and study over the years (especially when I can afford more than 5-10). HPFAP and Theory are valueable and every serious player should have them, unless they play against me, in which case I encourage playing from the gut.
I'm just wondering about the gun.
Thanks
-Michael
Now Packerfan1 I realize your upset because "Homegrown" has left and gone to Seattle. But I'll use him as the example he shot up your town and left. I believe it refers to being shot down by the trip threes and kings against all odds winning the hand. You never had anyone shoot at you with their fingers when they win a hand. Those are my explanations. Make a joke of it with your kids and play cards with your family and shoot each other when you win. Laugh!!! Laugh!!! And have fun. Don't read the NRA into it.
Bang Bang Paul
ps: Maybe SMZ will think about a new cover for the next book.
And I'll be happy if Rhodes will let Favre go into the Shotgun formation.
Oh will the gun references never stop!?
Under the Gun with Bullets in the Hole.
-Michael
P.S. I hope Rhodes can at least make the defense more agressive. He wasn't my first choice. Holmgren should do great in Seattle. If they can find a QB watch for them in 2002. Go Pack!
Yeah, I agree, the weapon of choice for the cover should have been a more modern handgun. A 1911a Colt, perhaps a Sig-Sauer or an H&K, or a Browning Hi-Power might have been a nice touch. After all, it is tough to explain to the wife and kiddies why 2+2 is so lame in their artwork with respect to weapons, especially handguns...
You know, Michael (can I call you Mike) I really hate the color of the book. I know there is some sort of religious undertones in that color that I'm sure Malmuth, Slansky, and that diabolical Zee are trying to promote in the cardrooms. Is nothing sacred anymore?
Deadmarsh
Deadmarsh (and all other responders)
I can see that everyone attended their group sarcasm classes last night. :)
I'm not complaining, I'm not making any kind of statement.
I'm just wondering if it has any significance.
(Excuuuuuusseee Meeeeee!)
-Michael
P.S. Can I call you Dead?
It is possible that in placing a RUGER NEW MODEL BLACKHAWK revolver on the 2+2 covers,the publisher obviously wants to show something representative of books information.Well crafted.Reliable.Accurate.
Please do -- where you from in Wisconsin?
Dead
If you want a more serious response, based on some of his essays, I believe Mr. Malmuth is a bit of an old west buff.
its my fault the gun is on the cover. its well known that our books are read, reread, and read again till the covers fall off. so over the telephone i told mason we needed some gum for the covers of the books. mason who is always preoccupied with pleasing all his customers wants and wishes misheard me and thought i said gun.
the gun on the cover appears to be about a 45 colt or 357 magnum. while it may be a good caliber for self protection, here in montana anything smaller than a 44 magnum is a pea shooter.
Actually Ray you have this story wrong. I remember many years ago you had a small percentage of my action in a game in Tahoe. You were playing at another table and just happened to get stuck real bad. At the end of the day I gave you $2 which was your share of the profits and asked if this made things any better. Your reply was, " Mason, if I had a gun I would shoot you." So I supplied the gun on the cover of the books.
Mason,
Good choice...Ruger Blackhawk. Own several myself. The Super Blackhawk was always my favorite.
I thought it added a nice Western kind of motif to the book.
Hi Ray,
I suggest you change the gun to a NEEDLE!!!!! HaHa!!!
The Syringe!!!!
Forget about needles, I suggest a naked woman behind the gun kinda 007. Because, James is the only one I know that would probably win with an eight-three. Of course, you will need the gun to protect yourself after you play that eight-three.
Well, it occurs to me that for the Stud book at least, the 8-3 is completely justified in being there at 7th street.
On the opening round the 3 brings it in. All fold to the A on his right who raises. The 3 puts him on a steal and with his pair decides to peel one off. He catches that magic 8, while the A catches his naked jack. The 83 checkraises the A but gets reraised. On 5th street the A bets again. The 83 suspects that his two pair is best but suspects that he may not even be a money favorite for the hand and has no hope of running out the other guy, so resolves to call him down til something tells him he's dead.
On the river, he catches the magic boat, while the A makes his hand. It goes 4 bets, and after the hand is over, the guy with the A is looking for his gun.
JG
I guess I'll have to buy the stud book and learn that too.
The gun is A Ruger Blackhawk. I don't have my book in front of me but I think it was the rare "flat top" model. If not then maybe it was the "Super Single Six".
i prefer a s&w myself but we will have to go with what the printers come up with for us. i pack a s&w 629 44 mag. on my side( the light weight model). as a matter of fact last nite i was up in the north fork of the flathead in a swamp full of grizzlys looking at property and that and my pepper spray were close at hand. of course i would not shoot a bear until he was right on me as most times they just false charge and stop about 20 feet away.
bluffing grizzlys... go figure!
they are easy to read
hair up ears back looking at you snarling sow with cubs
all signs you are in trouble
Ray,
Does is pepper spray effective on a bear? I never thought of it! I'd much prefer to repel one than kill one that was mad that I was in his range. I pretty much subscribe to scientific game management and killing only game to eat.
very effective better than anything else
Ray,
I like S&W too. 629 is a nice gun. Probably the Cadillac of .44's aside from custom. The Rugers generally have less finely tuned triggers and what not. But I have found the Super Blackhawks to be really good to...The old ones from the 60's with the rebated cylinders. Before they started things like alloy grip frames etc. The late model stainless are real solid workhorses too, a personal favorite. They also hone up nicely if you have them tuned.
As an aside my favorite .44 mag load is 250 gr. Keith type SWC, 19.5 grains of Hercules 2400 and CCI mag primer in Remington brass with a roll crimp. In a 7-1/2 Ruger it seems to be a nice balance of accuracy, power, recoil.
But as always work up to it using proper techniques and double check with a reloding book before you try it. It's only a moderate load...but safety first. Gun injuries are no joke! Trust me, even a .22 makes a nasty long to heal injury.
Anyway, I liked the cover! Poker is more associated with the West and Single Action revolvers than the famed "Dirty Harry" gun! :-)
Just like I said earlier.Well crafted.Reliable.Accurate.
I'm a newbie who has logged about 50 hours at different casinos, now I finally have 2 in my own town (4 tables in each, 1-5 stud, 5-10 and 10-20 holdem, small but profitable). I played at the first one yesterday and it was an adventure. I was easily the best player at the table (5-10) and most players (and the card room for that matter) were just learning the rules and how to play. $166 in under 2 hours, and that's with one bad beat, which I handled with grace and charm becasue I knew it was coming back to me later.
Dick in Pheonix, I have a fairly good feel for how to handle these calling stations (no bluffing for example). Any other tips you can provide? The one thing I fear, is losing concentration and not getting better (it seems so easy to simply play straight forward). Any hints there?
I was attempting to give the casino some suggestions after my play because the card room is very confused (for example they didn't know what a "chop" was). There was a rule by which if a person uses their hand to place chips, once the hand goes over the middle line (betting line), if the hand holds more than the call bet, it is considered a raise, even if the chips aren't put on the table. Sound strange?
I am going to try to help with the cardroom by suggesting some texts they should look at. Again, any suggestions out there?
Thanks everyone, and if ever in Winnipeg, be sure to drop by (but please let me know who you are so I know who to stay away from).
Kevin - Congratulations on getting a regular game and good luck! Yes, good luck will definitely help unless you plan on playing 4000 hours this year! The ups and downs at a no-fold'em hold'em table will take your breath away.
What you said is absolutely right. You have to play very unimaginatively against these players. You MUST stay tight if the rake is from the pot, so you win fewer pots than average, with those pots you win being bigger and with a higher EV for you. At 5-10 (my present game is 3-6, close enough), you have a lot of winning to do to win enough to beat the rake.
I recall Mason saying in posts that in these games, you don't get to use and practice the skills you will need in the bigger games. Unfortunately, I agree with that completely.
Sometimes when I read posts by some of our middle-limit posters, when they are semi-bluffing someone off the pot while holding a naked AK, or calling down someone doing THAT by staying all the way with their under-pair of pocket 6's, I just think that these posts are coming from another planet or something. Don't try this at home! Stay with these calling stations only if you think you have the best hand. (Or of course the probability of having the best hand, compared with your pot odds.)
Good luck ... Dick
Try the dealer's handbook by Mason. BTW, WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH ONTARIO!! IF THE REST OF THE COUNTRY HAS POKER, WHY CAN'T THESE CLOWNS GET IT TOGETHER AND PUT IN A COUPLE MORE TABLES!!!!
I'm going to be in Houston next week and I'm looking for a place to play hold'em, 3-6 to 10-20.
Thanks.
I will be in Reno on business and was wondering where to play Hold Em? I am having the hardest time trying to locate a list of places to play in Reno on the Internet. There are a lot of lists of casinos but no descriptions of if they offer poker, descriptions on the poker rooms or limits offered. I have been to Ken's Poker pages but the information seems very dated. I want to hear from other players. I usually play 3-6 or 5-10. Please let me know where YOU like to play in Reno..Thanks
It's been a couple years since I was there, but Circus-Circus had a very bus room with lots of low limit. Cal-Neva was mostly Omaha. Reno Hilton had a nice room, but it was slow during the week. I suggest calling the poker rooms when you are ready to go out to play. C-C put me on the list via a phone call, very friendly.
Rich
I have heard that the Peppermill is the place to play in Reno.
I stayed and played at the Mill a few months ago. I thought the poker was disappointing. They had one 10-20 going (this was a Friday night), mostly locals. The lower limit games were loose and fun, but I prefer 10-20 or 15-30. The room itself is attached to the sportsbook, which is fine. But it's kind of dark, smoky and the decor is 70s disco style. The bathroom is like 3 miles away. The steak restaurant blew. I am going to try the Hilton next time.
hi, im going to be visiting whidbey island, washington soon and was wondering how the poker rooms are up there. (i usually play in san diego, 4-8, 9-18, 10-20 holdem)
thanks for any info
Scroll down to the posting, 'Poker rooms in Seattle/Tacoma', on this Exchange forum. I left out a few places because they are not worth mentioning.
Ray, I read a few posts by you on the Forum about posts there that should have been posted here.
I think you should consider that some of the posters may not know that they are doing something wrong. It's not like the site comes with instructions. Most of learn through the experience of visiting here several times.
After all, Mason broke the rules by promoting the 21st Century editions on the Forum. I didn't see you complaining about that.
I just think that a kinder, gentler approach to directing you readers' posts to the proper location is in order.
Brett (be nice or I won't buy your books).
mostly when i complain its to people who do know. also i let slide what may be of interest to the thousands of readers which may not be exactly in line. what i dont like are things of little interest and are just for the posters self serving interest. there have been numerous posts directing where to put posts i am nice.
NM
"Be nice or I won't buy your books" That's smart. After all Ray needs your $5 a lot more than the $50,000 or so his book will make you.
Sweet God, do you fellers really get 15% of the cover price in ROYALTIES!?!? I had no idea that the big guy with the white beard who slid down my chimney last December was actually MASON...
hey, dont post under me, im defending ray zee, saying hey, look at rpg newsgroup, its all bs!
All books are trade paperbacks in excellent condition...only one copy of each:
$16.00 Sklansky/Malmuth - Hold'em Poker for Advanced Players - 1994 ed. retail = $29.95
$8.00 Ken Uston - Million Dollar Blackjack - 1994 ed. retail=$ 16.95
$4.00 Jerry Patterson - Blackjack: a Winner's Handbook, 1990 ed. retail = $10.00.
$3.00 shipping per order or all three for $25.00 ppd.
I am interested in the first 2 but not the 3rd. Give me more details.
Is anyone planning on entering the poker tournament at the CNE in Toronto or does anyone have an opinion as to the type of play? Deciding whether to consider spending my day off there.
Thanks.
Does anyone know the URL of rec.gambling.poker?
news:rec.gambling.poker
You can get there from Deja.com, but here's the easy way(this even worked for Vince): go to Cardplayer.com, click on the rgp link, after it loads, bookmark it( or click the cute little heart if you're on AOL).
Thanks to "me" and "3BetBrett" ! I Accessed RGP through Deja.com, but RGP is a pretty unwieldy forum-- too much clicking around, although I may be doing it incorrectly. I'm also a little apprehensive about giving them all the information they require in order to subscribe. I'm afraid of getting unwanted e-mails, or even a virus. Am I being overly concerned?
follow my method and you won't have to do any thing but read.
For those of you who don't read RGP, Greg Raymer "FossilMan" finished 8th out of 450 entrants in the $330 limit holdem event at the Orleans. He was the chip leader to start the final table, but ran into some bad luck (including an opponent's quads) which prevented him from finishing higher.
I believe he "offically" got $4500, but would have made more than $30 grand for a 2nd or 3rd place finish.
Join me in congratulating Greg. We look forward to your return to the forum.
Come down to the Big Apple soon for some no-limit holdem and I'll take care of those 5 units which are surely burning a hole in your pocket;-)
those of us that read Greg's posts here know he is a deserving champ.
Good score Greg! When you get back, post some of the tricky hands that you played.
Congrats FossilMan!! Tim
WTGO!
Vince
Thanks everyone, you're making me blush.
I will be writing up a complete trip report of my 5 days in LV at the Orleans, and will post it here and on RGP. Here are some highlights of the $330 limit HE tourney.
We start with T700, limits of 15-30, and I am down to T200 within 15-20 minutes. I finish the first hour (first limit) at T270. From this point until the final table I can do little wrong, and increase my stack significantly almost every limit.
Tournament is paying 30, and we're down to 4 tables and 31 players. I have a commanding chip lead. Scotty Nguyen (yes, the 1998 WSOP champion SN, not the SN from California) is at my table, and is one of the short stacks. I bust him out in 2 consecutive hands that I believe he misplayed.
I later bust out the 11th player to set up the final table. There are T326K in chips, and I start the final table with T81. Within 15 minutes, we are short 1 player, and I have T120. From this point on, the only pot I win is a blind steal with AJo, and a blind steal with AA. I lose EVERY other hand I play, and I am getting playable hands right and left. I finish in 5th place which pays $4800, and bring about half this much home in net profit for the trip (I played in 5 other tournaments that I didn't make any money from).
While in retrospect I can't complain about making more than 4K from a tournament, it was VERY disappointing to be so far ahead and not even make the final 3 spots. Mike Paulle thinks I should have sat on my hands and folded until down to 3 players, but I disagree. That strategy would have been much safer, but probably would cost at least 10K or more in EV.
I'll see you all at FARGO (November sometime I think), or the World Poker Finals (last days of Nov. into middle Dec.), both at Foxwoods.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Beau Rivage poker room is closed, as of today. The bad beat jackpot will be used "for other casino promotions". How much was in the "bad beat jackpot"? When Player's Island, Maryland Heights, Mo., closed it's room, the jackpot was huge (don't remember how much), but those who had contributed to the jackpot got nothing. The money went to the casino. Poker, bad beat jackpots are a gimmick, which costs players money.
Why did they close? The place was jammed when I was in there a couple of months ago - although I do remember the mgr saying they wanted the space for the sports book - is that what happened?
How is the money divided up, when a poker room sponsors a tournament? What percentage of the entry fees goes to the joint? I am asking because, I've watched a poker room go from zero tournament, to tournaments SIX DAYS A WEEK (none on Saturday).
I'm not 100% certain, but I believe it goes like this. When you get your initial buy-in they tell you that the buy-in is $15 plus a $5 entry fee. Rebuys are another $15 like the original buy-in sans the entry fee. I think that all the buy-ins go into the winners' pool while the casino keeps the entry fees.
Can anyone confirm?
exactly, and then we play in side games that rake about 100 and up an hour and eat food till we burst and go to sleep in their rooms. buy clothes in the gift shops, eat some more, buy pepto bismal, drinks at the bar, etc. and then the dummies go out in the pit and make their day.
Gee Ray guess you don't buy into the theory that poker rooms in Vegas aren't big money makers for the house? I think the best evidence is the infamous freerolls proliferating around town. The rooms I have gone to that had them had a packed house for 4 days straight leading up to them. I mean since when did you have to wait almost an hour for a game on a Wednesday night?
It's a more interesting situation in the UK where casinos are legally not allowed to make any charge for tournaments (even tipping the dealers is illegal). In fact I believe there is a requirement to pay a small amount of tax on the prize pool so the tournaments themselves lose money for the house.
Of course, as Ray says, they pick up money from cash games and what they really want is for someone to win a fair proportion of the prize pool and then go and play roulette with it. It goes to show, however, that casinos are prepared to offer tournaments without any entry fee or charge, suggesting that perhaps some of the higher entry fees in the US are a little excessive. Having said that there are far fewer places to play poker over here and so those casinos which offer it will pull in quite a few extra bodies.
Andy.
I know this subject has been beat to death, however, I have a specific question and would appreciate some help. I am considering purchasing Turbo Texas Hold 'Em - However, I also enjoy 7 cstud, and the thought of laying out that kind of bread for only one card game is somewhat daunting.
Is it REALLY worth it, or should I look into Poker Probe or Sozobon (whatever the spelling is)? I do want my HE game to thrive, since I currently suck at it (only about 15 hours - read HPFAP, TOP, Super/System, to name a few) and most of you would love to have me at your tables. Also, HE is the most available game here in the NW at varying limits.
I thank you in advance for your opinions and input.
Best, Tim in Portland
I think the TTH hold'em game is money well spent for a beginner. While it has its flaws, it is a reasonable(and less expensive)proxy for "real world" training. It is one thing to read about the perils of playing Ax in S&M and another to see it consistenly lose money in a TTH game.
If you can beat TTH, can you beat a typical 4/8 game? Probably not.
But if you CAN'T beat TTH, then you surely can't beat a typical 4/8 game. So, in my opinion, you will recover your purchase price by accelerating your learning curve and taking smaller losses as you learn the game.
The money for TTH or TT7CS seems fairly small to what you will need to attack even a low limit game in the casino.
TTH and Sozobon are games. AFAIK Sozobon is only a game. TTH will also do simulations (showdown and "smart"). Poker Probe only does simulations and AFAIK really only does showdown simulations. So the 3 pieces of software have different capabilities.
I personally own TTH and TT7CS and mostly use them in game mode as I'm learning (I've tailed off on TTH and am starting to use TT7CS more). I've used the TTH simulator some but have some fears about the output in loose aggressive games and spread limit games. FWIW I wouldn't trust the default advisor (Advisor T) against the low limit game. That said, unlike the other poster, I think that if you can beat the loose crowd on TTH you should be able to at least break even in the loose games I see in the bay area.
I use some code out of the RGP archives cobbled together with some of my own stuff to do most of what I believe Poker Probe would be useful for so I don't own it. I've only used the Sozobon demo.
TFATNA
PEF
TANSTAAFL!
Call me @335 3317 and you won't have to shell out full price. (I live @21st & NE Broadway in Portland.
Are any other 2+2 posters/lurkers going to the Horseshoe "Mid America Poker Classic" in Tunica? I will be there this weekend and for the first two events.
Can't make it, but I wish I could. I've never been to Tunica. How about a post telling us what it's like and describing the tournaments?
I'd like to find out what the structure for the tournaments are and how the prize pool is chopped up. Post some results when you get back. Good luck.
You are all kidding me, right? I am going to be the only "2+2 guy" in Tunica? ----I'M FEELING LUCKY NOW!----
Thanks for the well wishes. I'm taking 21st Cent HFAP with me for a re-read, poolside. And, I will post a trip report next week.
3 Bet Brett (if you are a real person and not just a made-up invention of Vince) --Tunica is worth a trip just to see it. The place is a "mondo bizarro never-never land" version of a William Faulkner-ized "land that time forgot". Ten (maybe eleven) casinos that pretend to be on water sit in the middle of worn out cotton fields with old rusted farm equipment and tarpaper shacks.
On the other hand, maybe I made up Vince.
Vince, er I mean Brett
OR maybe I made up ABE!
Brett, er I mean Abe, eh.. I mean Vince o.k I mean Sklansky, Clinton, Monica, Hillary....etcetra,etcetra,etcetra.
if you are going to be so nice as to give us your wonderful lists of abbreviations it would be equally nice to use only those ones or include a new and more detailed list of the new ones you will spring upon us daily:)
M=Mirage,,PC=Pacific Classic,,No more advanced acronyms your right. Sorry!!
How about cutting down on the abbreviations and acronyms. Most are so esoteric you are only using the once. So, in fact, it takes more effort! Plus, I'd rather spend my time thinking about what you have to say rather than trying to interpret it. Just a thought (JAT) :)
.
I like VG better!
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