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i have been thinking. rick is a real cool guy. that is all.
scott
He's no Hampshire sow. Sooooooooouuuuuueeeeeeee!!!!!! Sooooooooouuuuuueeeeeeee!!!!!!!! Did I mention I like farm animals? I mean I like like farm animals....
AlexB
a.
dont forget Rick is a floorman at hollywood park casino. as poker players we have to understand that the floormen are our enemies so beware. they wait around for weeks at a time thinking up ways to make a decision that would make any sane person puke. id say more but i have to run.
ray zee,
i thought they were talking about some rick from the dorm or their old high school poker game. i thought it couldn't have been me because i am not nor ever have been a cool guy. but i could become one with lessons and study. do you recommend any books?
regards,
rick
p.s. i don't need weeks to think up bad decisions. it only takes a moment or so.
Rick,
You're a cool guy--a bit apoplectic maybe. (I saw that Badger, I think, used this word in reference to you.) It's fitting, and I'm jealous that I didn't think of it first. But what's a little apoplexy between friends?
BTW, I finally met your hero this weekend, and he'll be visiting you shortly. Be warned, though, he was caught trying to sneak into a 3-6HE game.
John
He probably is a cool guy. Every time I play at HP I look for him to thank him personally. His posts have helped my game tremendously.
Saw a special on Charles Manson and the had some expert analyze his hand writing he said Manson writes in lower case, rambles on and doesn't use much puncuation.
They said this is a sign of a twisted sick minded maniac. Made me think of OUR lower case boys.
Also, Sklansky well the rambling no paragraph part anyway.
Mike,
Have you seen Ray Zee lately? He could pass for Manson now that I think about it. I'll go back to using caps in case the FBI raids his compound and then goes after his cult.
Rick
I have seen floormans who are not fair to different players. I have been ignored for a table change many times from certain floormans in different casinos. Of course, Rick is an exception. I do not know if he is a cool guy or not, but he certainly is a reponsible floorman with nice personality.
regards,
jikun
All I know is that next time I make it out to HPC I want him to be in the Pegasus room. I go out there occasionally to play the 20-40 Stud H/L and twice that other mean (well not really) floorman Bruce Migdal killed me! I mean he is playing like a floorman making apparent loose calls until the river when he check raises me and shows me a wheel once then a 7 high straight flush. Unreal...
So next time, can I request that Rick plays? I mean Bruce has killed my whole trip profits twice now and he beats me so bad I was about to play in a Stud H/L satellite last week until I saw Bruce walking up to the table. Rick please tell me you are not a good Stud H/L player...haha.
wildbill,
In Los Angeles, you can get along as a poker player without playing stud very much. Holdem rules here although the 20/40 H/L stud does well along with regular seven stud..
When I plug a few more or the many leaks in my holdem game, I'll try to work on stud H/L. In the meantime, I can honestly say I can't play a lick.
Regards,
Rick
I played in the $35 stud tournament at Foxwoods last wednesday. I finished 8th. Of course they only paid 5 places because there were 49 entries and not 50. I played in the $20 holdem tournament on Saturday. I finished eigth and recieved a prize of $58. Let's see that was 8 hours at a cost of... Hmmm the heck with it! I only played in these tournaments for the experience any way. That's the same thing I told myself when I got into the 5-10 Omaha hi/lo games before each tournamnet. Chock it up to experience. Chock up the $100+ loss in each session to experience.
That's pretty easy to say. Chock it up to experience. I was telling myself that as I stood in the middle of the floor in front of the poker podium waiting for a seat in the 10-20 holdem game. Of course the steam coming from under my hat was causing a great cloud above me that was getting to the point where it was about to rupture and fill the room with my frustration. I was praying it would break and flodd out all the rats in the room. After all they were the ones that caused my frustration. Especially those weak tight Omaha players and that old son of a ... at the Holdem final table. The blinds are 1500 and 3000 and he limps from early. I shoulda known better. I raise from one off the button with Ah,Jh. He calls. Flop As,Ts,7s. He check raises me and I go all in. Turn spade, river spade! He turns over the Js,8s and I kick myself for betting the flop and leave with my $58. It was as if the poker gods were laughing at me with those five spades staring me in the face.
So here I am steaming in the middle of the poker room. Just waiting for someone to say something a little askew then man I was gonna let them have it. Of course that wasn't going to happen because noone ever comes up and talks to me when I'm standing in the middle of a poker room.
Noone that is until this time. All of a sudden I spot this enticing blonde female approaching me! No she can't be coming to talk to me. No, not possible. Well she just keeps walking right up to me and stops in front of me and smiles! "Hi", she says, "I was just asked to tell you that Rick says you..." I didn't hear the rest. It got lost in the background noise. I found out later she was referring to Rick Neibelo (spelling), one of my posting buddies here on the forum. Mary as it turns out is a special friend of John Cole another posting buddy here on the forum. John was playing 5-10 Holdem and had sent Mary over to relay the message from Rick.
I had never met John before but was eager to talk to him. Rick had sent me an e-mail telling me what a great guy he was so I was looking forward to meeting him.
The three of us John, Mary and I stood behind John's table and talked for quite a while. Mary was playing in the 3-6 holdem game. I asked her to post up here because we need bright female posters on the forum. I hope she does. After a while Mary went back to her game and John started playing again. I watched John throw Qh,Th away UTG and thought "Rick must have taught him how to play". Anyway, while I was standing talking to John and Mary my name must have been called for the 10-20 game and I missed it. I had to go to the bottom of the list. It didn't even bother me. While waiting I spied a seat in Mary's 3-6 game and tried to take it, for kicks, but unfortunately there was a list. I finally got into a game a little later 15 stud I think. I played "even" for the rest of the day and left a little behind for the weekend.
On the way home I reflected on the events that had occurred the past 3 or four days. I recalled playing in a game with a fellow that was 87 years old! No one believed him until he pulled out his drivers licence with a 1912 birthday blaring out from it. I asked him if it was a fake ID so that the Casino would serve him liquor and he laughed. Then I thought about meeting John Cole and his wonderful girlfriend Mary. It brought a warm and comfortable feeling to me. I thought, you know, you just met two very "good" and friendly people. It doesn't get any better than that. You know what else, I didn't think about poker at all for the entire 2 hour ride. I just thought "Meeting good people made the whole trip worthwhile." Thanks John and Mary. Oh yeah let's not forget that 87 year old. God Bless!
Vince.
Vince,
The pleasure was all ours, and Mary and I will take you to dinner next time we meet.
The rest of the message from Rick was "...you're his hero."
BTW, I heard the audible gasp when I dumped the QTs, and I even registered a pronounced, if involuntary, shudder. You'll need some work on those tells.
Again, a real pleasure, and thanks for the kind words.
John
Don't even ask about the e-mail address, long story,better told in person. Wish you had made it onto the three-six table,it may have brought some sanity to the game. It was a pleasure meeting you even though John tricked me into it. Hope to see you at Foxwoods soon.
Mary
Since Vince has told us about meeting John Cole and Mary, I'll mention that I met someone this past weekend too: Chris Alger. Chris was in San Diego for the weekend, and he, my wife, and I had dinner at a new, trendy, downtown restaurant -- being the trendy, hip folk that we are. Chris is a great guy, and as nice and every bit as bright as his posts here indicate. He and I managed to carve out a little time to talk poker one on one. And let me just suggest that if you meet and want to talk poker with another poster here -- especially if it's one who has thought about the game the way Chris has -- you allow for a minimum of about five hours time to talk. Chris and I barely scratched the surface of about ten different topics which have come up here at various times.
Anyway, though I'm often frustrated at the limitations of the written word in posts, that the Internet can enable you meet a good person with whom you can discuss a mutual interest is a very good thing.
A very good thing indeed! Meetings like this are well worth reading about. I look forward to meeting Chris when I go to Phoenix. I believe that is his home base. I intend to look up "Dick in Phoenix" this summer and I hope Chris is around for a little poker talk. I'm sure he only went out with you John, because your wife went along. With me he will get to talk real poker!
Vince.
:) just for you John. Last 2 sentences only!
Vince -- Chris may not get around to "Other Topics" for a while, so I'll just mention for him that you won't likely find him in Phoenix. Think "Mile High City".
oops!
vince
I finally drove by the Hustler Casino, and it looks pretty nice. It's around the size of the Normandie Casino, maybe a little smaller(which is about a mile or two away). It has an unusual modern-art shape, interesting/different. They were painting the entrance white as I drove by. I have no idea what color the main structure will be.
If you want to check it out, it's easy to get to from the 110 Fwy at the Redondo Beach Blvd. exit(in Gardena), then go west a little less than 1/2 mile, and there it is on your left. You should be able to see the Hustler sign as soon as you are off the freeway during the day time, I don't think it lights-up at night yet.
Of course when they open, if their collection is higher than the Normandie's I'll only stop by for a few minutes, not only to get a look at the place, but to see if the cocktail waitresses are as hot as people are anticipating. I won't be surprised though if they are about the same as any other Casinos' waitressses in the area, due to California's whacky non-discrimination laws and all.(Who cares if she's 50 pounds overweight and ugly, experience is all you're supposed to take into consideration, right?[unless you want to get sued that is]).
-Curt
That is not necessarily true actually. I used to work at a cardroom and the hiring manager said its really easy to get around those laws. Basically since there are very few cardrooms, the experience thing is easily ignored. An owner can simply say, well yes this woman worked 20 years, but never in a cardroom! Enough said. Its true, thats how they manage to always have 20 somethings college students doing cocktails much of the time. The girls have no experience, but just as much in cardrooms as the uglier candidates. Also part of the job is considered "personality" and as long as the owner interviews the older candidates, he usually can choose from the better looking ones. I don't really know if cocktailing will draw out that many stunning women. In LA area, they surely can find more money doing other things, but I wouldn't doubt if the clientele proves to be as upscale as people hope, that they have the best crew of all the cardrooms.
See the following articles:
Cardroom indictments cite loan-sharking, drugs
Closing time? City might phase out cardroom licenses
55 Indicted In Probe of Card Clubs: Extortion, fraud linked to two San Jose nightspots
In addition to the above links, see this San Jose Mercury News Editorial
It is clear that the SJ Mercury, the SJ Mayor and some of the city concil would like to close Bay 101 and the Garden City. By the way, almost all of those charged are involved in the Asian games.
Yeah and they are idiots too. This is a town that will give you a fine of $1000 for sleeping (or even just taking a nap) in your car! The town seems to think they are something of a high class town with their tech business yet they have the only real unsafe areas in the whole Valley outside of E Palo Alto. They seem to think they are wading in money, yet if they close down their cardrooms they lose almost 10% of their annual budget. A city of almost a million people losing 10% of their budget, now how do they replace that? The mayor was asked that and he had no idea, but he did say it was disgusting that a city become dependent on gambling. He went on to say all these derrogatory things about gambling like an old fashioned Christian conservative, when the area is full of liberals and libertarians. I won't even think he got elected to get rid of two measly cardrooms. Bay 101 is far from anything residential and Garden City wanted to move to a non-residential area, but the city won't give them permission to. These sites and these rooms are clearly not crime ridden neighborhoods. At some point I wouldn't be surprised if he gently gets reminded of these things. Sure the Mercury and the mayor are against these cause they think they are surrounded by money, they will find it somewhere. However when they try to figure out how to close the gaps in funding and realize they can't without drastically raising taxes, then they will face the music.
I'm going to LV for the Orleans Open, and am considering my travel dates. I am also considering playing in the TOC. However, my bankroll is not so big that forking over 2K in cash is a wise play. Also, I do not want to go there and try to win my way in, because I don't want to book my flight home at the end of the TOC unless I KNOW I'm playing in the TOC.
Therefore, I'm considering selling off part of my action to backers.
As you all probably know, the entry fee is an even $2,000., which includes the house fee and dealer tip. I would be selling off parts at par, each $100. getting you 5% of any win. I don't know if they're doing the car thing this year, but if they are, I'll be selling it right away and including it in the prize money (i.e., backers get their share of the car's value). Also, a big negative for some of you maybe, you cannot participate unless you provide me with your social security number and home address, and understand that your share will be reported to the IRS. I'm an attorney, and must do everything by the book or face the risk of being disbarred.
If you are seriously interested in being a backer, please reply to my email address and tell me yes, and for how much. If enough people are interested, and my schedule permits, I will plan my trip to LV to include the last few events of the Orleans Open, followed by the TOC. In that event, I will email each backer and ask you to mail a check in advance. Only checks received and cleared prior to my departure will count; all other checks will be shredded or the money returned. Also, I will post a list of backers here in advance, so all will know I'm not "overselling" myself (you can use a pseudonym if you don't wish your status as a backer to be public).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
5% for $100. I'd say you are overselling yourself. Prove me wrong.
Vince
.
Why should I take the worst of it? Give me %5 for for $80. Unless of course you can justify my investment in you. Go ahead, prove your worth the investment.
Vince
Sorry Vince, it wouldn't be worth the effort. If you feel that investing in my tournament play is wrong for you, don't do it.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fossil your sounding awful whimpish now. I'm trying to promote interest here or haven't you noticed. I've seen you play. I don't need any reassurance. I'll buy 5%. But how many of the folks here know you other than from what you post. I wouldn't back Sklansky based on his posts!
Vince.
Greg,
"However, my bankroll is not so big that forking over 2K in cash is a wise play."
I would say from the way that you worded this that you are not that confident of winning yourself.
BTW, what is your tourney record for Omaha 8B and Seven Card Stud?
Just a side question and observation about the TOC and tournaments in general: Where's the overlay in playing in what should be a much tougher than average field (the TOC)if you have to buy into it? ( I don't know the prize pool details; is a great deal added?)
You would think that this field would be tougher than average, but that isn't true.
I saw some of last years event before catching my plane home. More importantly, I discussed the event with some players whose opinions I greatly respect, players who played in the event. They assured me that the field for this tournament is no tougher than the field for any of the other events at the Orleans Open that precedes it. It's true that you get some guys like Doyle in the TOC who don't generally play in the Orleans events, but you also get a whole lot of hometown heroes from the smaller cardrooms around America who have very little tournament experience.
Maybe the biggest factor of all, a lot of the players in the TOC are simply no good at 1 or 2 of the games. Many of the folks who are tourney regulars are from California, and play very little stud. Some of them are from the East Coast and play almost no Omaha8, and maybe little or no HE either. Overall, one professional friend assured me that everyone at every table he played at, with only a few exceptions, was exceptionally weak playing at least 1 of the 3 games.
As for added money, I doubt there will be any. Mike Sexton is working on getting added money from sponsors, but I've not yet heard of anything consequential. Maybe someday, but not as of now.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
to back you for a $100. I'll send you $100. With the condition that you cannot buy it back, list of other backers names, and a tournament receipt to prove that you entered the event.
My bankroll, while theoretically renewable from income, is not renewable in the practical sense, based on the deal I've made with my wife. Thus, despite having a good income, I only have 10K to utilize for playing purposes, and losing it all would require me to quit or renege on the deal with my wife. As such, I do not intend to fork over $2K on a single tourney.
Actually, I am quite confident that I am an excellent (albeit high risk) investment at par. I have been considering requesting a "buyback" clause from any backers, whereby if I win a bunch of money at the Orleans Open prior to the TOC, I can buyback their investment at a 10% premium. That is, if I choose to do so, I can buyback your investment prior to the tourney by paying you $1.10 on each $1.00 you invested. If my bankroll is sufficiently large, I consider paying 110% for myself a very good deal. My personal guesstimate is that my EV on the 2K buyin for the TOC is 3K, or a 50% expected return on investment.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I think you are having a bit of fun with us.
You want backers - but if you start playing "well" you want to buy back the "investments" wow you do have balls of course since you are a lawyer you are used to having the best of it most of the time.
Your EV estimate is based on what?
I am sure a bookie will give you 1000/1 on win and 200/1 to make the final table. Why not just bet on your self.
A lot of folks have requested a history of my tournament wins and such. Here's a quick summary.
My biggest wins are: 22K Foxwood $500 limit HE 12/98 ~150 players 10K Foxwood $200 NL HE (rebuys) 4/99 ~150 players 5.5K Orleans Open $300 limit HE 7/99 ~450 players 4K Sycuan $100 NL HE (rebuys) 6/96 ~200 players
Respectively, my finish in these events was 1st (deal), 3rd, 5th, and 2nd (deal).
I have also won about 30-40 of the smaller weekly events both here in CT and back in SoCal, plus placed in the money in numerous smaller and larger events. My wins have been in limit HE, NL HE, PL HE, stud, Omaha8, PL Omaha high, lowball, and crazy pineapple. My money places have also been in all of these events.
I have turned a profit in tournament play for the last 3 years in a row, despite only playing about 30-40 events per year, and only playing poker in general about once per week. My hourly rate is good in all games that I play in regularly.
Mostly though, if you wish to make an investment, I think you can best judge my abilities by simply reviewing my posts in the tournament forum, and judging my understanding therefrom.
BTW, I hope this doesn't all come across like some form of begging. Basically, if I get people who wish to back me, I will schedule my trip to play 2-3 events at the Orleans plus the TOC. If not, I will schedule my trip for the final 4-5 events of the Orleans Open. The main reason I would like to play the TOC is that I would enjoy the prestige that would come from winning it that much more than from winning something else (like the $300 limit HE at the Orleans).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Problem is, the only thing you could possibly be playing for is the prestige. Imagine that you actually got 20 backers. You could win the whole enchalada and still not have enough to pay for your hotel room.
Dan
I know this guy who sold more than 100% of himself so he has to bust out on purpose - nice huh.
Rounder,
This is the plot line of Mel Brooks's The Producers. Biallystock and Bloom sell mutiple 50%, 75%, and 100% shares of their Broadway musical, Springtime for Hitler. Of course, instead of folding in one night, the show's a success, and the two producers are sentenced to jail when they can't pay the backers. In prison, they begin work on their new musical about men in prison, selling shares to the other prisoners. Even the warden buys a 50% share.
Although I don't know Greg, I trust him based on the candidness of his offer. Caveat Emptor? Perhaps, but I don't think so here.
John
x
Mel Brooks certainly has a lot of explaining to do for a lot of his movies but "The Producers" is an absolute gem. For this, and for "Young Frankenstein", he gets an automatic get-into-cinematic-heaven-do-not-pass-go card.
Murray
Simple, I wouldn't take backers for the whole 2K, just the first 1200 or so. Like I said, putting the entire 2K out of my 10K bankroll isn't good bankroll management. Putting up 800 or so is OK and an amount I can comfortably afford to lose.
As to Rounder's post about taking more than 2K worth of backers, I too have heard of guys doing this and then busting out on purpose. That is why I offered to post a list of all my backers online (here). If I omitted anyone, you can be sure that they would be instantly aware of it and let me (and presumably you) know. If I don't omit anyone, there is no way to oversell myself without it being apparent.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This is interesting information, but it makes it hard to handicap you.
What I'd like to see is a table one row for each tournament you've entered, with the following columns:
Probably some other data, too.
Then I'd like to see a table for TOC listing the same information, but with blanks for the as-yet unknowns.
With this, I'd feel better able to assess your chances of winning enough to justify buying a piece.
It's just like having the race history for a horse...
--james
Anyone interested in this proposition should read Gary Carson's brilliant response on rgp to a poster who asked what a backer usually gets.
Brett
ive never met you mr. fossil but from your posts i would more than believe you have way the best of it in most any tourn. you enter. i think you should get more than par for your pieces. it seems that most of the posters would jump on the chance to get a piece of you. yet they kind of mock the deal. ill tell you what any time you want ill take all of the 1200 worth you want to give up at par and let you keep any prizes such as the car or whatever and im not kidding this is a real offer. also any of the smaller tourn. ill take a piece if you are willing to give it up or ill put up an amount with you and you can enter what you want or use part of it for sats. hows that.
Zee sometimes we do agree. I've met him and he had my head spinning talking HE that I just had to laugh and leave and leave him with Vince. There both are very knowledgeable people as are most of the posters here.
"yet they kind of mock the deal." I didn't like that either but you came up with the sol'n.
paul
i too have qualified for the toc but am not planning on going. would you back me? just kidding. i can't even afford a plane ticket. but maybe in a couple of years my bankroll will be in the right range to be backed. maybe right after i turn 21. right after i become a legal entrant.
but i agree. backing greg would be plus ev.
scott
Ha! Ha! Ha! I fooled you oh mountain man now didn't I. I'm really the one looking for the backer! so send the check to Vince Lepore. I 'll send you the address in an e-mail. There really is no Fossilman. That's just a pseudonym I use. All thos posts were mine. I'm not a lawyer. I'm a liar. A compulsive liar. Why I might even tell you I like you! Except you would know that was a lie. So I probably would say I don't like you and you being from Montana and all wouldn't know if I were lying or not so I would win. Oh, Oh yeah, there is no such a person as Paul Feeney either. That's me too. I couldn't think of a good name so I stole John Feeney's. But didn't want to be just another John so I use Paul. By the way I'm really Mason Malmuth too. He doesn't exist and neither does Sklansky. The Pope, yup that's me too. I write the songs that make the whole world sing. Yup you got it! Barry is me too. So you see if you want to back someone back me. Whoever the hell I am!
Vince
Card Player magazine has a poker diary advertised for sale for $16.95. Anyone have any experience or opinion on it's real value?
vince.
A friend of mine has one he has been filling out in pencil so it can be erased and it will be practically as good as new. Let me know if you're interested.
X
Why is it that "every" single Card Player columnist feels the "need" to put "quotations" on random words in their "columns?" Don't they realize how "annoying" and "unnecessary" it is? I'd like to ask the "editor" and the "publisher" if they read the "columns" "beforehand."
"Dan"
Both mags are running out of things to say. when you have topics like.
How many combos of A's.
Why people play to many hands.
Cookes autobiography - of sorts
Sexton with his monthly suck up column. Hey don't you think it is time for CP to get a more current Pic of him.
Burgio - a very nice guy who should stick to poker.
Chip chatter - Haunted Hotel - yeah I want to stay there.
OH the hand of the weak - this one was one of the worst in a long line of very uninteresting hands.
The Fouled hand - did it stink or what. Lately most of my hands are pretty foul.
Badger thinks we should learn the rules of the casino we play at. Running out of things th write about HUH.
I read it for the tournament results, ads and tournament schedules. Most of the rest of it is a waste of trees.
Now if they want to appeal to us poker players they should recommend clean painless ways to committ suicide - now there is a topic I could get into.
:-(
"Sex" is not he answer
"Sex" is the question
"Yes" is the answer
"Both mags are running out of things to say. when you have topics like...
Why people play to many hands."
Rounder, you think I don't feel? You think I don't bleed? You have cut me to the core.
You say you want advice on suicide. So I think you just didn't like my bringing up the topic of psychotherapy -- which might keep you alive. I represent an obstacle to your dream of ending it all, don't I? That's it, isn't it????
OK John I read your column and did find it sort of interesting. I could have written my acid tongued, sarcastic post and left your OK article out.
Just that everything is going so bad for me these days I can't find much positive in anything.
If you do one on the suicide thing all will be even.
:-)
Easy, John. As Rounder would say, "It appears someone missed their meds today!"
vince.
Vinny - the lithiam/prozak combo is not all it is cracked up to be.
Rounder,
Zee has a copy of my book that I wrote before I got on the other side. Take the elevator just don't eat the mushrooms.(hint)
amanita virosa
ps: I tried to leave it alone Bro!!! The other side is just as hard sometimes.
The movie Rounders was actually part 2 of a three part movie trilogy. Part 1 was call Rounds. And Part 3 will be called Roundests.
I was reading an article about why the Simpsons is funny, and it was horrible. The author tried to compare Homer to Falstaff (OH my God, HE's stealing the burgers!!....who can tell me what episode that was from) The problem with the comparison is that it is impossible to quantify or describe what is funny. No matter, vocal humor is much easier than written humor.
Anyway, your post wasn't funny. But I can't tell you why. Isn't that weird?
Would changing the syntax with which I posted the joke help increase the humor level? Here it is: ".Roundests called be will 3 Part And. Rounds call was 1 Part. trilogy movie part three a of 2 part actually was Rounders movie The". Is it funny now?
Dyslexia for cure found.
the episode in question is homie the clown, epsiode 15 season 6. homer joins a clown college to hallarious consequences.
scott
Season 11 episode "Saddlesore Galactica", hmmm maybe future references should have the tagline "cannot be pointed out by alex, scott, mark, or niels". But that would defeat the point of the allusion, wouldn't it? I'm not judging the combination of humor and poker, after all gambling is the finest thing a person can do, if he's good at it.
you show an amazing grasp of that episode. next time just try for 30% new footage.
scott
double references?
After co-opting my 30% new footage, you "cleverly" added another reference from 138th episode spectacular. Way to go! I have nothing but respect for the office of resident alternate math expert, but high quality allusions are well outside your area of jurisdiction.
Alex, don't you think you've posted enough?
Sorry, I'm required by law to ask that every 75 hours.
But no more subtle criticism of me, or I'll bust you down to sergeant so fast it will make your head spin.
a.
and i am .... hey boys, what cures cancer?
scott
Alex and Scott,
Quoting the Simpsons is the finest thing a man can do, if he's good at it. You guys haven't made a relevent quote in several posts,
Mark
And yes, I realized it's a bit mangled, but I want to have some context and not be a member of Idiotville, Population: You.
you're gay.
scott
skipped a grade before.
we have so much in common, i'm sure we'll be the best of friends.
scott
but your phony quotations are not good here. The correct quotation from Lisa's Rival is "With so much in common I'm sure we'll be the best of friends."
a.
release the dogs. or the bees. or the dogs with bees in their mouth so when they bark they shoot bees at you. i dont care. do your worst.
scott
Can't we just say that poker embiggins us all and leave it at that?
"Gambling is the finest thing a person can do, if he's good at it". A sneaky reference - I _love_ that bit, where Krusty bets against the Harlem Globetrotters because "I figured the Generals were due". One for sports bettors everywhere ...
Andy.
Aren't I brilliant? But I think the reason it wasn't funny is for two reasons. First, there was no context for it, nothing for it to really play off of. Second, it's the type of joke my father would find hilarious, and we all know how witty he is. Maybe it's just an old turk joke, and we should just smile and nod as they laugh themselves silly
Mark
BTW-No, Alex, I don't hate my parents
and our proud naval tradition. You quoted "gambling is the funniest...." without realizing that it had been quoted and commented on, twice! You're banished from the young turks. You, and your children, and your children's children......for three weeks.
3 months!
I challange you to a duel. Will you Duel, or are you a coward? First of all I have to thank Dan for defending me and pointing out your own shortfalls. I believe it was Jebus who said "Let he who is without sin something something". And I'd like to change, really I would, but what can I do as an individual? I wouldn't know where to begin. I wish I could make a difference but I'm only one man. And in my own defense, both posts in which it was quoted were boring, and when I get bored I make up my own post (I have a very short attention span), so I thought I was being original. Now what are you going to do? Release the Dogs? Or the Bees? Or the dogs with bees in their mouth and when they bark they shoot bees at you? Well, go ahead, do your worst.
Mark
And by the way I'm aware of the irony of repeating a post while defending myself for repeating a post, so don't bother pointing that out.
Everything I had read or heard about Canterbury Card Club before it opened indicated that they would have a time charge for seats rather than a rake. This included their web site which I read through a couple of weeks before they opened. At that time, I called the club to see exactly what the charge would be, but the nice lady didn't know, and everyone who would have known had gone home for the day. I double-checked the web site a couple of days before they opened, and lo and behold, they had rake information. I was disappointed by this, but hey, it's the only game in town (for now). Does anyone know why the about-face?
maybe they are not stupid and realize they can get more money by raking the pots. and they then can have less employees because of this.
Don't know the history, but I played there Weds. nite and there was definitely a rake, not a time charge. I played the 4/8 Hi-Lo stud and 6/12 stud games, and the rake was 10% up to $4.50, plus another $1 for the bad beat jackpot, pretty steep.
The structure was $0.50 ante, $2 bring in, $4 to complete, and $8 on the later rounds, with 4 raises allowed for the Hi-Lo game. The 6/12 high game was $1 ante.
Nice facilty, high rake.
Chin Music,
How's the smoke in the place they informed me it would be no problem?????
Paul
Better than many places, but you could always be seated next to a chain smoker. The room has a fairly high ceiling, and the air appears to be circulating, so the air quality is reasonable.
The 2 seats to the left, and 2 seats to the right of the dealer are no-smoking, and those milling around, ie. not seated players, are not allowed to smoke except in a designated area near the horse betting counter.
n/s
In a 6-12 holdem game today, I believed I caught 2 guys playing partnership. Player 1 was on seat No.3 and Player 2 was on seat No.4 who I felt was more skilled than Player 1. Also Player 2 had been talking and joking a lot on the table. After I joined the game, I felt that there were some very questionable plays from Player 2 when they both involved in the pot. Based on my reading, he either made big laydowns or was doing something else. The pots player 2 did win against others except Player 1 had not shown any out of line plays.
Then comming this hand: Player 1 on SB raised and Player 2 on BB 3 bets with 4 (or 5) others seeing the flop with 3 bets. Flop: KJ8, checked around.
Turn: K, Player 1 checked, Player 2 bet, 3 callers, Player 1 check-raised, Player 2 made 3 bets, all fold to Player 1 who capped the pot. At this morment, Player 2 said to Player 1 "what the F$$k are you doing?", and Player 1 showed KJ, and Player 2 thought for a second and throwed his hand away. As I was so curious, I tried to reach the cards but the dealer got them first, and I said to the dealer to turn it over and he did (maybe I was too serious at that morment). Player 2 had 93. He had no str8 draw and no flush draw. He argued that the dealer was not supposed to turn his hand over and looked very uncomfortable after this hand. He left about 10 mins after this hand and Player 1 left 5 mins after him.
My question is what the management can do about it if I call them to the table and see the situation like this? This is actually the 1st experience I had like this. It happened at HPC, at table 53, at the time 11:45am plus minus 5 mins.
regards,
jikun
I must admit that the way they played after the flop smells of collusion, but the way they played preflop smells of self-mutilation. The best hand between is KJ, there are already 5 limpers, and they are trying to force everyone out? Not likely unless it's a 20-40 game or above, and even then someone is going to stick around to the river if they catch a good flop.
If they're colluding, they're not very good at it yet.
In any event, you definitely wanted to inform the floor and/or higher management right away. Let them know that you're VERY suspicious, and expect them to look into it. If they do not, inform them that you'll be playing elsewhere. They probably won't care, but if enough people do it, they might start to try harder.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
i dont know what happenend but two players cheating together certainly wont jam before the flop with kj and 93. thats impossible. then they wouldnt show their hands at all because they would know what each had. what i think maybe they were doing was agreeing not to run each other out when headup or playing out of the same money and were lousy players trying to get an advantage but not knowing how to do it. id like playing with them. but you should tell the upper management right away and insist they look over the tapes and take action.
KJ and 93??? If they are that terrible I would like to invite them over to my house so they could cheat me all night long. They may have been up to something, but it sounds like they are more of a threat to themselves than to anybody else. The soft-playing on the river is a bit different.
While it certainly sounds like they might have been trying to play as something of a team, it is more likely that they are poor players and friends who had a "team spirit" but no real agreement to split the money. At any rate I personally would love to have them at my table and while others will probably disagree with me, I would not want to see them barred or anything else other than perhaps a few words of caution from management. Lose these guys and you lose some profit. Besides the terrible hand selection, it sounds like they probably give off some serious tells too. The one real negative is that while you should do well against them, you do not want an atmosphere that worries other players or makes them uncomfortable. That is why a few well-chosen words from management would be in order. Since management has no proof of their intentions that is about all they would probably do at this point anyway. Call me mercenary, but I am all for giving the suckers a little extra leeway. If you can't outplay these guys, you can't outplay anybody.
If anyone cares, here's two good books for those moments when reading about poker bores you. The first, A Beautiful Mind by Sylvia Nasar, is a National Book Award winning biography of John Nash, the mathematician, whose early work in game theory would earn him a Nobel Prize many years later.
In the book, Nasar refers to an amusing anecdote about John Von Neumann, the legendary scientist and mathematician. He was asked to sovle this problem: two men 20 miles apart ride bicycles at the rate of 10 miles per hour toward each other. A fly moving at 15 miles per hour starts on the front wheel of one, flies to the front wheel of the other, and so on. How many miles does the fly travel before it's squashed between the wheels. There's two ways to solve the problem: one, sum the infinite series, and two, simply figure that the bikes must travel one hour to reach each other; therefore, the fly travels 15 miles. Von Neumann thinks for a few seconds and gives the right answer. The questioner replies, "Oh, you already know the trick." "What trick," Von Neumann replies, "All I did was sum the infinite series." It's a great book, very well written, and accessible for people like me who no longer remember high school alegbra.
My second recommendation is A Fan's Notes by Fred Exley. Exley's novel might be the greatest work ever to examine the psychology of the sports fan. Exley's semi-autobiographical novel, a retelling of The Great Gatsby, is funny, sad, savage, and moving. If Badger hasn't read this one already, I'll pay him twenty-five bucks if he doesn't like it. (My pockets aren't as deep as David's, so I can't afford $400.00.)
Regards,
John
I just recommended "Reading People" by Jo_Ellan Dimetrius. The jury consultant who picked the OJ jury.
As for the math thing. Knowing the odds for the draws is eneough for me. I am a simple man and all this high level math stuff just confuses the game as far as I'm concerned.
Check out Strategies of Genius by Robert Dilts. It examines the Observation and Deduction skills of Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes character. It also explores the creative thinking patterns of Walt Disney and the reasoning strategies of Aristotle.
If you like "A Fan's Notes" you might like "Fever Pitch" by Nick Hornsby. I was warned off it because I wasn't a British soccer fan, but loved it anyway.
"Fever Pitch" is terrific - and spawned literally thousands of soccer-related books. Of course the fact that football has taken off in a gigantic way across Europe helped a bit. (Shows how good the book is, you not even being a soccer fan!) Still about fans then, I might recommend the next book, Among The Thugs, which deals with the subculture of violent followers of football clubs, the so-called hooligans. It's written by the ex-Granta editor, Bill Buford. It's non-fiction and it's pretty hard hitting stuff...
"Among the Thugs" is bollocks. Bryson has no idea what he is talking about. Ignore it.
Andy.
For your wonderfully complimentary post. I will be quite proud to play with you backing me. Please email me at the address attached to this post and we can finalize the details.
To other folks who already offered to back me, please email me at the same address if you're still interested, and we'll figure that out as well.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I hope that this isn't the beginning of a "Please back me!" trend of posts in this forum.
i doubt it. my 'please back me message' recieved no responses. admittedly, my post was a joke. but, still, it hurt. it hurt real bad.
no one wants to back me.
scott
scott,
Here's a standing offer to back you in any Columbia U. home game you get in with my buddy Karl. He's a good guy but I am guessing you are a heavy favorite over him. I'd love it if we could team up to take some of his money. It would help me keep up some bragging rights, vicariously speaking. Email him.
KJS
A well planned setup might work. I mean what could be more exciting to people that don't get to play in the big dance than getting a $20 or $50 piece of a player. If you plan it right, get 200 $50 pieces or 500 $20 pieces and keep some for yourself. Obviously its a little late to start, but unless you are a horrendous player, most would be willing to buy into the excitement for a small fee like that. Maybe we should designate a player next year for our TwoPlusTwo rep at the WSOP.
That sounds like a good idea and I think it would be a lot of fun.
I nominate Ray Zee. But I'll bet he would require at least a 35-40% freeroll for his time and trouble.
Ray would also want compensation for the 1% reduction in lifespan spending up to 4 days in a smoking environment would cause...
I say we get someone who is on the net, but is not a regular on here yet. If we expose him to this world s/he might give us some new publicity. Besides the right to play in the World Championship should require a small "fee" in freeroll since after all everyone wants to play in it as it is. Even a name would just be happy to play in the biggest event of the year and at a reduced price since being in the event is worth more than the money unless the player actually gets down to the last 4 or 5 spots.
I say we find ten players. Set up a satelite to play the week before the big one.
Just got back from the WSOP. Sorry I didn;t run into you in the satellites. I thought I would recognize you from your picture and looked for your name.
I had a decent trip. Made a little money and finished in the top 20 in the 2k PLHE event. I lost a big 25k all-in pot at the river when it was down to 20 which would have given me a shot to make the final table. My QQ vs. AQo and TT.
Faced some tough competition. I drew on table just before the dinner break that had Tony Ma, Ment the Master, Ken Flaton, and O'Neal Longson. My buddy busted out Neal, though. I also played several pots against Phil Hellmuth. He even made a bad laydown against me that could have sent me to the rail earler.
I'll post a more detailed report when I get the time if you're interested.
Hope you're doing well. The satellites seemed pretty tough to me.
Michael Tedesco
Mike I had a horrible trip but I am going back before it is over. 1st 4 sats I played in didn't win a hand then played in a Orleans tournament got KK and AA cracked I'm on my back to my hotel. Did a bit better in the RGP invitational but only placed 10th. Ring worked out best won some money and did win a bit on Roulette (got bored with poker - I think I have carpel tunnel from all the mucking I was doing).
Glad to hear you had a decent trip.
Rounder,
That would be soooooo cool if you won a satilite that got you into the $10,000 event. Then you ended up at the final table, I'd buy that tape for sure!
-Don
Hey I'm not done yet. As Arnold said "I'll be back"
If I make the final table, Hell I'll buy you all a tape of it.
:-)
To anyone who missed it the first time it was on, The Discovery Channel is replaying its coverage of the 1999 WSOP.
Showtimes:
5/5/00 @ 8:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m. 5/7/00 @ 4:00 p.m.
You'll want to check your local listings to confirm those times.
Thanks!
Are those EDT?
I remember a very heartwarming article in Poker Digest a few years ago that talked about David and his father Irving (there was a picture of David's son, himself, his dad, and his stepson). But I don't remember the article touching on whether or not his son had chosen to follow in his father's footsteps. Does David's son even play poker? With David as his father and personal teacher, i'd assume he has the potential to be great!
-Kathy
He's getting there. What brings this up? Those good looks he inherited from his father?
David,
Not all good son's follow in their fathers footsteps. And thank God or genetics that some get their looks from mom.
Vince.
What brought this up was a comment you made to somebody in another forum here at 2+2 in regards to your father. It reminded me of the article I made reference to, re-igniting the curiousity about your son I had at the time the article was originally released. Oh yeah, and also because of those incredible good looks that he obviously inherited from his father.
-Kathy
school is almost over and i will soon return to the subarbs of dc for the summer. i, and the rest of us turks, would be very grateful about any games in the dc area. weekly private games, cardrooms, whatever. please post or email me. i would like to hear about any games at any stakes, but i cannot afford bigger than 10-20. however, i would play in a pot limit or no limit game that is a little outside my bankroll range, because big bet poker is great. still, 2-5 blinds would be about as big as i could go.
i play hold em, 7cs, 7cs8, and will learn omaha and o8 if necessary. i am also open play any other games, but you will have to explain me the rules.
scott
i know someone on this forum plays in the district. why wont you tell me about the game? i'd tell you.
i like to play. please let me play.
there's got to be a cardroom or some private games in dc. just please tell me about it.
do me a favor. it doesn't hurt you and it makes me happy.
please.
scott
Maybe they don't play poker in DC did you try posting your ? on RGP - this BB is populated by a lot of card room dweebs (like me) so try another BB.
This is taken from Ken's Poker Page (www.gocee.com/poker). You won't like it:
Maryland
Charitable games with notoriously high rakes in a few areas. With Gov. Gelndening's re-election, gambling a dead issue. Poker is available in nearby Atlantic City, New Jersey.
Virginia
Worse than the Carolinas. No poker. No gambling. A perfect potential nuclear test-site, in my view. Atlantic City, NJ is closest poker.
does anyone know of any private games or clubs that do not enjoy the full cooperation of the law?
i can't drive 3 hours to play poker! i guess i might just have to regress to .50-1 once a week.
maybe i'll start a game....
if anyone knows anything or wants to be part of a game that i start, please email me.
thanks shooter and rounder for your input, as discouraging as it was.
scott
I heard from a dealer yesterday that the Card Room Manager got a slice of the tokes they take in.
Now that pisses me off I expect that toke back when the dealer sits down to play poker. How can I get it back if it goes elsewhere.
Is this standard practice.
Mike,
In the Los Angeles card clubs it is common practice that dealers pay about $1 to $2 for each table dealt (the amount depends on section) and this money is usually distributed to the chip runners, floormen, and the board person. Generally this money is about 35% percent of floorman's pay and is accounted for and taxed at the normal rate (it is called "Tip Pool" on my paycheck).
That being said, I heard of one now defunct club where the owner allegedly dipped in and took a piece. Few complained because the tips were much better than average in that all the games were between 2/4 and 10/20 and most were holdem (which is a better tipping game for the dealers).
Regards,
Rick
I know that when I tried to tip a floorperson at my casino for a favor she did for me, she refused saying she couldn't accept it. So it apparently doesn't happen at my casino.
But I don't understand your complaint. Are you tipping because you like the service of the dealer or because you want that money back when they play poker? If the former, realize that the dealer splits the money with dealers who never dealt to you, and probably to craps and blackjack dealers you've never even met. If the latter, why can't cardroom managers play in your games also?
Dan
Here are a couple from the WSOP "Who Cares?" file. In two consecutive NLH satellites I played in, the following once-a-year hands occurred:
Hand 1: Tight player limps in early position. I raise on the button with TT. Short stack reraises from the BB. Tight player calls. He has a lot of chips left, and so do I. I also call. Flop comes KT5. He bets. I raise all-in. He calls. Turn 7. River 7. BB says "I like my hand" and flips over KK. Tight player has 55. Flopped set-over-set-over-set.
Hand 2: Down to 3 in my next NLH satellite. I am the shortest stack and have pocket Queens in the SB. Button raises. I reraise all-in. Big blind raises all-in. Button calls all-in. Button has AA and big blind has KK. Flop comes AQx.
x
I'm moving to Vegas this summer, not to become a professional poker player but to attend graduate school at UNLV. Any recommendations on cheap places to live around the University area (roughly behind MGM). I have a car so it doesn't have to be right next to UNLV but the closer the better. Basically I'm looking for cheap housing but not in a terrible area.
Roughly behind MGM there are some lovely dumpsters to choose from. I recommend Dumpster-brand trash bins They're top-of-the-line. Don't waste time with the Trash-Co. waste disposal units.
Dan
-
Put simply, forget living near UNLV unless you want overcrowded lousy maintained buildings. Mostly condos and apartments within a mile or two away. In this town its hard to live far from anything. The general rule is further from downtown or Strip, the nicer the area. Send me an email if you want more advice.
The place where I live is pretty reasonable and the back gate opens to Thomas and Mack. You can reach me at this email addy and I will give you the info.
I have a room for rent in North Las Vegas. It's in a very nice, clean and safe neighborhood. We don't allow prostitution and drug dealing in the area.
Could I get some info?
Are you serious? Did you really mean that? I can't tell if your'e kidding or not! Come on that can't be true? What's up with that? You must be joking? Why would you say that? I don't understand I don't get it!
Are you serious? Did I piss you off? I can't believe you said that? What's wrong with you? I missed your point? Don't be daft! you missed the boat. Come on, do you really mean that!
Are you serious? I hope your'e kidding? What's wrong woith you? I can never tell if you mean it. Were you drunk when you said that. I hate talking to you. You're always joking. What gives!
Scott.
Scott! Are you serious? Scott, that little pretend to be a math whiz, undergradute schizo from Columbia? Did he write this? No, Vince wrote it, silly. Besides Scott is not a pretend Math whiz or a schizo. Isn't that what's important?
Vince.
really.
scott
Best Verse:
"Under The boardwalk
You can almost taste the hot dogs and french fries
That they sell"
Doesn't get much better than that!
Vince.
Sorry to miss all of you and the WSOP for the first time in probably 10+ years.
A family emergency has arisen and I will not be in attendance. Any and all prayers will be most appreciated during these difficult times.
I hope to see many of you during the Orleans/TOC.
Diane
Diane,
I'm not religous. But if "good thoughts" will help. Mine are with you! I hope everything turns out for the best for you and your family.
Vince.
Diane,
Sorry to hear about your misfortune my best thoughts are with you.
Mike
Vince-Rounder (and the others who sent private emails)
Thanks so much for your well wishes. The support of friends and family mean a lot at this time.
Diane
Diane,
My thoughts and prayers are with you. I hope everything turns out well.
I'll miss you at the final table at WSOP, but I'll see you at TOC.
mah
from an unknown friendly soul.the call to come home beckons us all.We~re all spirit who come into this world to conquer the human element.....your loved one shares bliss with our creator.
jim grass
Thank you, Jim.
Diane
A while back I sent several of you a "tell" by email and I asked you not to pass it on and to get back to let me know how it worked for you - so far only 2 have done this I'd really like to hear from you.
If you don't want to talk about it here just email me
guzaldo@yahoo.com
I am not gonna send it out anymore so please don't write and ask for it I just want to know how it worked for the 15 or so I originally sent it to.
If you want I can summarize the replys with no names let me know.
Hey paisan where mine?
vince. leporeva@hotmail.com
Rounder,
I didn't get mine.
maheide@yahoo.com
Rounder: How much is 3 x 4? Please answer. It will help us to understand you. We're trying to help.
Mike, I should have answered you sooner but have had only a few chances to try out the tell. I found that I could only really watch one or two close sitting players on any hand and found that some did not give off this tell at all. Maybe I can only watch those who are susceptible. Some false readings as well. Do not have enough data to evaluate iun my games as yet. A few players made quite elaborate fac ial expressions and one guy would laugh whenever he missed. Thanks for the info; I just need some more time. More experienced/older players did not give off anything. Dave
That guy in his 40's, divorced and living alone, I was telling you about ? He scratches his balls now and then but always scratches extra hard when he's about to come over the top with a decent hand. Of course, you can tell that no one realy wants those chips, at this point in time at least, so usually the tell works: We're out of the pot.
This is some tell, I tell you. (Lady players, in particular, have been known to muck pocket rockets.)
We'll be moving the forums to a new server shortly. Just before that happens, I'll disable posting on the forums. You'll still be able to read them, but not to post replies or new messages. Once the transfer is complete, I'll re-enable posting.
Sorry, in advance, for any inconvenience that this may cause.
Chuck
Could anyone tell me the best way to get to Tunica. From Tampa Fla., without a tour package, as I dont know how long I will stay (two nights or two weeks) and traveling alone. It seems a long way to drive. Also do they have daily tournaments. Thanks Don C
Can anybody recommend a solid advanced instructional book on Gin Rummy?
I've got a great book. The Bartender's Complete Guide to Mixing. It has both Gin and Rum in it. Best if mixed with Coke (or diet as I prefer) or perhaps some tonic if you're feeling frisky.
Dan
Mike Sall's "Gin Rummy" book is about the most advanced out there. It retails for $200 (no joke).
I am thinking of heading out to Albuquerque/Santa Fe for vacation over the upcoming long weekend. What are the best places to play out there? What is the action like and what are the limits? I usually play Stud H/L or Omaha so I would appreciate info on those games. I heard it is mostly Hold-Em out there. I probably will only play one night for a few hours so I would like to figure out the best place to try before going.
Sandia, at the north edge of Albuquerque, spreads 1-5 Stud/8 and a great 4-8 O8. Also 4-8, 10-20, and PL HE.
Brett
I may need to move out of my apartment in New Jersey soon, and was thinking about living in a cheaper area. I make my living playing online poker, so I can live anywhere, and as much as I enjoy Jersey, the cost of living here is pretty high, and I'm considering moving to another area.
I prefer online games to cardrooms, so poker action in Vegas would fall into the "added bonus" category. I expect that in the future, I'll want to play for higher stakes, and living near some poker action will be a must, but for now, it would just be nice.
The other attractions are the low rent, warm weather, no state income tax, and living somewhere where my friend and family from home will like to visit often.
I guess I'm looking for replies that start with "I live in Nevada and I think..." but whatever you've got to say, I'm all ears.
Thanks, B$
I live in Nevada and I think Las Vegas is a great place to call home. Poker,blackjack,race and sports books,buffets,late night coffee shops,and no last call at your favorite bar!
The Grand Canyon,Death Valley,Utah,Southern California,and Area 51 are all easy day trips from Vegas.
Valley of Fire is about an hour away.This is where a lot of science fiction movies(including some Star Treks) have been filmed.It's one of my favorite places in the world.
About 20 minutes from Vegas are Mary Jane Falls,Mummy moutain,and First Creek Waterfall.
There's more but those are the first things that came to mind.
I just wrote the following... I realize it sounds pretty flakey, but I'm posting it anyway, since I've had a couple glasses of wine, and after I am sober and have done a couple months worth of research, I seriously do expect make a big move. Still interested in comments about Vegas... any other suggestions? NJ's great, and I'll always be a Jersey boy, but I think I may need a change.
this is the part i wrote first...
hmm... sounds good, although I've been to Roswell, (area 51?) and it was only mildly amusing. Best part was the t-shirt I got there. Great conversation starter. I was playing Paradise Poker earlier (if you're not familiar with it, all the tables are named after tropical islands) and decided to look into actually moving to one of those islands. Turns out that they're all more expensive places to live than NJ (go figure)... But I could live in Mexico for half of what I spend here! Vegas seems to be around 3/4. lived in NYC for a while, and I could live FIVE times as well in Guadalajara! Didn't do the NYC vs. Vegas math, cause it started getting late, and I guess its pretty irrelevant. Somewhere I used to live vs. somewhere I may move to. Pushing it!
Anyway, we got any Mexicans or expatriate Gringos here? Any cities you reccomend I look into? Seems like there's alot of English spoken in Guadalajara. I know a bit of Spanish, but haven't spoken much the last few years. It seems as if most of the Americans there are retirees (gross) but there are something like 7 colleges in town. I love Cozumel, but it might be too touristy for a home. Any big poker areas in Mexico?
daydreaming... B$
Mexico can have ISP problems and LD telephone can be very expensive and safety is a real problem.
I suggest you look at Phoenix, Tucson and specially Yuma. Yuma is 10 min from Mexico and really cheap (I understand). Phoenix is a wonderful place to live and the live poker is great so is the weather. People who live in Tucson are sold on it there too.
Good luck in your selection of a new home.
I thought about the ISP issues, but there must be good service available Somewhere. Phone & crime worry me less.
Arizona is an interesting possiblity. I've never been there, but in high school around 10 of my friends moved out there 'cause the pot is so cheap. They only lasted a few months, and I never got around to visiting.
I guess that's nothing to go on, but its about all I know about AZ. I'll have to look into it. Thanks Rounder.
B$
nevada, florida, and texas are the southern warm states without state income taxes. all have close by poker but florida games are smaller. all have cheap living if you stay out of the high cities. or come to montana where you can rent a cabin for seven dollars a month and grow your own food and hunt and fish. my total living expenses are about nine dollars a month if i eat out alot:)
$7 is pretty high... maybe if you needed a roommate...
B$
Well I am a Las Vegas resident and its is nice here, but low cost of living it is not. Compared to the coastal states it is, but other than that I think middle America will suit you better. New Mexico might be a good choice actually, there are decent poker rooms around Albuquerque and the cost of living is a bit lower than here. The weather is nicer in summer, but colder in winter so that might concern you since it is almost a mile high city.
As for Mexico, well I probably know more than most. I have been to Mexico many times in the last year and have a buddy that used to be a Las Vegas sports bettor who took up residence there. He lives in the city of Puebla, a city of over 1 million which is about 2 hours outside Mexico City. If you drive a newer Volkswagen it was probably built there. His cost of living is ridiculously cheap. He has a two bedroom apartment that rents for 1700 pesos, which is about $185. Its a very nice place actually in a fairly nice upper middle class part of town. The weather there is next to perfect as the city is at 8,000 ft so the temperature can be chilly at night, but its almost always between 65-80 during the day year round! He said the hottest day he can remember was 29C, about 83F. For online service, you just bypass the phone and get a cable modem and hookup. The costs are about the same as here, 450 pesos a month and its fairly reliable, he says it goes out maybe once every two months for a few hours. If it goes out you can just go into one of many businesses that has computers and internet for 15 pesos an hour. Its very important to him to have the internet up obviously as he makes all his bets online as none of his books has a toll-free number from Mexico and it costs 19 pesos a minute to call them. Therefore I have to think the internet is reliable enough if he can keep going at it for 2 years now and seems to have no desire to come back here. The only drawback is that there is virtually no English spoken there and no English speaking community. Except around Mexico City and Guadalajara, English generally stops being spoken about 10 miles from the border. I am sure you pick it up fairly fast if forced to by living there, but it probably would be tough to start. My buddy was fluent in it already so it was not much of an issue. All in all, if you are single and have no family it would be viable but I don't know if I would want to have a whole family with me there. If I was still a sports betting pro I would consider going there or a couple other cities, but since I choose to work in the business world now, its obviously not much of an option. If you want more info, write my email and I will tell you more.
XX
ya he lived down the road a piece but he is one of those mild montana types that didnt have enough balls. rode around onhis bicycle and was peaceful. wonder what happened to him. havent seen him around lately. maybe he went fishing or something.
http://www.mountainflying.com/search_pilot_3.htm
fishing season is in full swing now up here in montana. This is one of the airports I pop into for some of it. Its actually tougher than it looks and my hands get a little sweaty when I turn final for the runway. But the fishing can be great.
Ray,
I know about the love for fishing - when we lived in England in the 80's I tought my 3 year old son and our neighbors boy, a great kid and unfortuantely disabled how to fly fish. I knew he could fish all his life with his disability (being a little peason) and be as big as the next guy. Today is a tournament winning fisherman who has fished on the all England tournament team.
I'm gonna see that young man next month and I expect he will be teaching me a few things.
Mike
wonderful good for you.
Great, enjoy your reunion. Post alittle something about your fishing experiences upon return. I enjoy the fishing posts.
Ray, any Smallmouth stream fishing up your way? Trout are fun and tricky and all, but I just can't get over the thrill of swimming a wooly bugger through a six inch riffle and hooking up with a two pound smallie. Also, how are the golf courses? I swore off of Montana whenI heard about the crowds, but if there are nice tracks and good smallmouth fishing, I may have to make it up there. Extra Bonus for Smallmouth in the hazards on the course. -2d
Smallmouths in Montana are few and far between. Smallmouths in rivers in Montana are fewer and further between.
Maybe Ray Zee knows better. He has a plane.
All I had for my 12+ years of fishing the state was an old Chevy truck and my thumb.
Maybe if I could be guranteed at least one shot at a Dolly per season, I'd still consider it.
Try the boundry waters in Northern Minn. off gunflint trail. Five pounders are not uncommon.
Dolly Varden are bull trout and are now endangered and protected most places. we used to catch all the 8 to 15 pounders at will but too many people ate them all and they are sadly gone for good. the logging and mining also hurt them. they may come back a little with the protection i hope.
Ray (and anyone else I may have offended), I know that Dollys are bulls and that they are endangered. I chose to name them in my post because I knew that there was no way I could or would fish for them. Maybe I should have said a chance at a Taimen each season. Now that's a salmonid!! tight lines, -matt
Unless I am mistaken, you can fish for Bull Trout in the Swan drainage. Incedental catches occur during the fall by streamer fisherman targeting brown trout in the Blackfoot. I personally don't have a problem with this if fish are properly released. IN 1978 I spent 17 weeks in the Bob Marshall Wilderness, I hooked a few Bull Trout in the fall while fishing for West Slope Cutthroat, again I don't see a problem with this as long as the fish are quickley released. I do not advocate targeting the fish but incidental catches will occur. For those who are interested in protecting cold water fisheries I would recommend joining Trout Unlimeted(tu.org}, they do a good job. Sorry if I sound like I,m on a soap box..
Ed, lots of room up here on the soap box for all of us. I think part of the problem with incidental catches of Bull trout is that they are so much bigger and stronger than anything else that you would be targeting in the same fishery. If you were fishing for cutts or grayling with a four weight, and you tie into a four pound bull, you may land it, but how much chance are you giving it of surviving the ensuing fight. The fish will be oxygen depleted, and, though it may look fine when you release it, will not have a very good chance of making it on the long term.
I have not problem with fishing these rivers or even catching these fish accidentally. I do look at the big picture a little more than the next guy, though, and have made a conscious choice not to put myself into a position where I may have to unknowingly play executioner to a protected/endangered species. Don't want that on my mind later. I'm looking toward the day when I can target and even take a Dolly with no bad feelings. Until then, I will stick with smallmouth and rainbows. Just a personal decision. Why pay huge money to potentially feel bad about your actions.
2d, thoughtful post. I,ve often wondered about mortality and catch and realease fishing, after 25 years of catch and realease, how many fish have I killed. I've participated in a hooking mortality study involving grayling. I've read some of the literature and discussed this with fish biologists. I've worked on shocking crews where fish seem to be handled much more. I still don't have a good feel on mortality. I know that some fisherman have gone to fishing flies w/o hooks or stopping for the day after a fish or two. Mortality takes place whether we fish or not. Populations on heavily fished streams[Madison} remain healthy. A careful realease is probably all that is necessary to keep fishing with a clear conscience.An aside, I do feel light rods are compatable with large fish in the hands od a skilled fisherman.
Ed, as a personal choice (coming from someone with a background in the sciences as well as an interest in outdoors/environmental) I've determined for myself that trout are mainly feeble creatures. Granted, careful handling and release are of the utmost importance, but I've sometimes had fish on where I knew the chances of it surviving after release were slim. In these cases, I often take the fish, if it is legal to do so. For example, I once landed a four pound rainbow after a fifteen minute fight. The fish was running upstream and down most of the fight. Had my tippet been stronger (I was fishing 6x) I would have been able to end it more quickly, but, as it was, the fish was spent when I landed it. I then spent more than ten minutes trying to revive it before I determined that it wouldn't make it. In this case, I felt no compunction in killing the fish. I would have felt far worse If I had released it and found it floating downstream later.
I usually love to use light and ultralight tackle when I fish, but these are the times when I feel bad doing so. Sometimes I think that the Bassmasters have it right: over gun the fish, get them landed and them release them. Little stress on the fish and our predator instinct is sated.
I would hate for the above situation to occur with an endangered fish on the line instead of a ubiquitous rainbow. I felt bad enough about that one (although it was delicious). I am very confident that I can land any fish I hook regardless of the tackle, however, I've even gone so far as to intentially break off when the fight seems to be taking too long. I looked into it after the abovementioned fight, and found that some scientists feel that an over long period of stress (long fight) can cause such a large buildup of lactic acid in the fish that proteins are actually denatured in the living organism; the fish cooks itself from the inside out.
Fish on, release when you can, but, above all, don't waste. -matt
Matt, I appreciate your ethics and the fact that you bother to think about these issues. In my experience with Fish and Game electroshocking, fish shocked, netted, drugged,handled{while performing different measurements} altered{fin clips and tags} and then released after the drugs wore off, I can't honestly say that they appeared worse off for the treatment. Yes there would occasionally be some mortality, usually when water temps got high. The biologists seemed to think they handled the stress well. I spent 100+ days a season on the Madison River primarily fishing the same water for `12 yrs. We used to look for dead fish and endlessly debated the effects of catch and release on mortality. I saw very few dead fish, what I did see was large numbers of disfigured fish for hooking, misssing mandibles open sores, a mising eye occasionally. This prompted me to be fairly adamant in the use of barbless hooks. So today I still fish, I do consider fish to be frail, even in light of some of my experiences to the contrary. I sometimes disparagingly joke that I'm off to drag fish around by their lips for my own amusement.
Ed, I really do appreciate your concern for the fish. I do think that there is a different kind of stress involved when electroshocking a fish vs fighting one for ten or fifteen minutes. In the second, the fatigue factor certainly comes into play, and the problems that I previously mentioned should be considered.
As to your decision to go barbless. I've heard arguments for and against both options. The major one against barbless is that, without a barb, the hook tends to penetrate too deeply, and the fish can suffer deeper injuries. Regardless, i also mash down the barbs on my hooks as I can't see too much to worry about either way, except for the additional time spent in handling a fish hooked on a barbed hook.
Maybe we should follow the example of a fisherman who's name I've forgotten (was it A.K. Best?). he decided that the penultimate moment in fly fishing was the take, so he clipped the point off of his drys. he fished for that one lightning moment when he had contact with the fish. kinda cool, and kinda weird, but, oh well, whatever's clever. -matt
Matt, I do agree that overplaying a fish is bad. I feel that most fish can be landed in under 5 minutes. The new stronger tippet materials make this easier today. I do pay attention to water temps, and will stop fishing if they get to high. In Montana this may happen only for a week or two in August. Are you a member of Trout Unlimited? If not, you may wish ot check out their web site tu.org, good information.
I agree that TU is a very worthwhile cause. the fish I was referring to was caught a few years back when 6x was about 2 lb test. I needed to go that small because the creek i was fishing was home to size 18 and 20 nymphs, and I couldn't get my tippen through anything with anything bigger. The water was a tailwater and the stream temp is constant all year: no worrys about rising water temps. How is the fishing in Montana now? the weather in N. Cal has been a little spotty lately, so the fishing has been inconsistant. pretty good season ahead, though because the winter gave us a pretty good load of snow to sustain flows all summer. -matt
points to inject.
bull trout that reach any decent size are seldom caught on trout flies as they eat smaller fish almost exclusively.
most fish released will survive especially from a fly hook.
smallmouth bass are indeed in the lower fladhead river and reach 6 pounds or more and the fishing is quite good for them. i have never done it there so thats all i know about them.
There are a few populations of Bull Trout that are strong but they have been wiped out from most of theirhistoric range. Fish and game is working on a recovery plan but are somewhat hampered by politics. Habitat destruction has to be addressed gbut that requires stepping on some toes. As to the crowded conditions there are places like the Smith and Beaverhead that have restrictions to alleveate crowds, still one can find some water to ones self. I'm a grumpy old guy who doesn't like crowds but still tolerate them to fish The "Mo" and Henrey's Fork.
big mouth no smallmouth. great golf courses as good as anywhere and thats the truth. there are no crowds except in yellowstone park in the summer and thats mostly wyoming. its a big state.
zee,
I see I have to fly to the left coast to get that collector's item BAMBOO POLE according to Bro that you owe me for swallowing the exhales!!! Don't worry he's a piece of cake compared to YOU!!! My extra pounds should help in extracting it from the orifice it is lodged in so SNUGGLY!!!
pole vaulter extractor (pve)
It kicked ass!
Good as any of the great Gladiator folms of the 60's.
I give it 5 shields.
Give the Africa thing with Kim B. a miss it sucked big time.
Africa thing with Kim B?
I know she'e a hottie, but what were you thinking?
You've got to work on your game selection, Mike G.
Sometimes I am so bored I'll see anything new.
I am one of the 3 people to see Wondermen with.
I thought Gladiator was above average,but far from great.
the heavy set guy from siskel and ebert called it big dissappointment.he said major thumbs down...did any of you see caro on the dating show ,blind date. he was giving lessons to the couple. jg
What's Ebert know. Since he married a black woman he doesn't like anything unless it si really PC and multi racial or by the racist Spike (shoot Heston with a .44) Lee.
I like action movies and this is a good action flick.
IMHO
whatchoo talk' bout? This film was completely racially harmonius. Black guys getting ripped in half by chariot lances, white guys getting decapitated by two swords. If that's not affirmative action, I don't know what is.
Dan
Except for the battle scenes in the beginning, I found it dragged. Too much dialogue between the brother and sister with little action until the last 30 minutes.
If you want to see a gladiator movie, rent Spartacus or Demetrius and the Gladiators.
Russ
..and so this movie.
Some months back Mason Malmuth posted a description of how he sets up his results spreadsheet. Anyone remember which month or date is was? (I printed it out and lost it and am going nuts looking throught the archives). The format he uses seems a bit simpler than mine, although mine is also based on the Gambling Theory formula. Or does anyone have any other suggestions for tracking std dev with a spreadsheet?
Here is a link to a spread sheet I found. I don't know how accurate it is or if it's even correct; however, it looks like the guy put a lot of work into it. Check it out http://www.geocities.com/happy_flop/
I have it and will send you an e-mail attachment of the Excel spreadsheet if you want. It has a SS that Jim Brier sent me and a test SS that uses Mason's data. Send me a note if you want it. You'll need Excel ver 5 or higher
Anyone here ever watch ST:TNG? I watched it all the time when it was on. Aside from the millions of other minor and major flaws in the show, one seemed to bug a bit.
OK, here's your poker table:
Seat #1 is an android. He's probably read every single poker theory book written in the last 500 years. He can instantly compute odds to the one millionth decimal place. He can pick up on miniscule movements and probably dectect increased or decreased heart rate/ breath sounds.
Seat #2 is a half Betazoid. She can detect emotions from players. No emotions get by her because she's half telepathic. Other than the fact that she's pretty lousy at her job, her whole career is based upon reading tells.
Seat #3 is Geordi. A blind man who has a device which he actually admitted allowed him to see right through the cards! Can you think of a bigger advantage?
Seat #4 is a Klingon. Probably not the best player in the world, but you definitely do NOT wanna put this guy on tilt.
Seat #5 is Riker. Some schlub from Butkis, Alaska. Do they even have poker tables up there? He's got the absolute worst sense of game selection I have ever seen to be playing against the other four. But somehow he manages to win every single session.
Science fiction indeed.
Dan
I'm the real Star Trek poker champ. My masterpiece was Corbomite Maneuver. Once my time warp drive is ready, I'll go 80 years into the future and kick Riker's ass!!!
I know most people here are not the Average American. I just keep going back to that movie and seeing the scenes played out in all the people around me, especially at work. Men stuck in a loveless marriage tied to the chains of supporting a two Children family and the American Dream of a 3 bedroom house and a two car garage.
I think for most people, and for a long time myself, thought that Happiness = American Dream. The interesting thing about the situation is that once a person finds out that that is not necessarily the case, its usually too late. The house is bought the children are born, the parents are both working 40+ hours a week to support the "Dream", and death usually is the next great thing.
I think one of the reasons why the "American Beauty" is such a classic is because there are so many ways to interpret its message. What I got from it may not be what everyone else sees in it.
CV
Chris - I am a middle aged guy - looking at Corvetts and women 1/2 my age. I'll never do anything about it but there is such a thing as a mid aged crisis.
I'm in it now.
Moving back to Illinois will kill my dreams out here but sometimes you have to do what you have to do.
Cheers,
I thought this movie was way overrated,but am glad you liked it. I was on the set where it was filmed, so it was neat to see the different scenes. I thought "Fight Club" was a much better movie about values of the American dream.
It's interesting that you thought it was overrated. One reason for Beauty's popularity may be that it was one of the only good scripts written lately. I thought it was much deeper than "The Graduate" in mocking the American Dream. Now that I've seen both movies I think that "The Graduate" has been over-rated and I thought it sort of shallow.
CV
Speaking of Fight Club, Fight Club is among the greatest movies ever. It contains american Beauty. It might contain Dead poets Society, but I don't think so. Fight club was funnier than these movies, and Fight Club certainly had the best lines:
I am jack's complete lack of suprise.
I mean wow!
anyway, that's just me, I could be wrong.
James H.
The suprise ending was unfair unlike "6th Sense" where you knew something was wrong since Bruce wore the ssame cloths throughout the film. I knew he was dead all along.
Having said that, I did like fight club - but the ending left a sour taste in my mouth.
Well don't spill the beans until I see it. Thanks, CV
I think the ending adds a touch of realism to the film. How often do you look at the mustang left running outside the airport terminal and think: "I could jump in and steal that car." People think about themselves and wish they lived a certain way, but they don't have the will to follow through. The narrator just took that and ran with it.
Sixth Sense is a completely different movie. The plot is the whole point. It is like the matrix, it is a well told story with a VERY good director. Fight Club was not about the plot. Fight Club was all about:
You are not your job You are not the car you drive You are not how much money you have in your bank account
you are not your khackies you are all the all singing, all dancing crap of the world.
-James H.
I thought the fight club was a great movie. Totally unrealistic, but outstanding nonetheless.
The best scene had to be where Brad Pitt held a gun to a convenience store clerk's head. Tyler forced the guy down on the ground and then started asking him about his life. The guy finally admits he wanted to be a veteranarian but he dropped out of school. So Tyler says he's keeping the guy's license. He'll check back in on the clerk in six weeks. If he's not on his way to becoming a veteranarian by then, he'll be dead.
It was such a great scene. Sometimes we all need a gun pointed to our heads to determine what's important in life.
And, if you noticed, later on in the movie Tyler's entire door is covered in licenses.
Dan
Thanks a lot. :(
I had no idea thought everyone had seen it is good to see anyway.
.
...and sait it well, despite flaws in the second act. Not the kind of film that you can tell it went through a fuckin' dozen re-shots & re-cuts because of some "disquieting" audience preview.
Tip: Whenever you see a movie with no obvious traces of the Marketing Dept's footsteps all over it, you can park your ass in the seat and allow it to have a go at you.
Tip: The clearer the message, the farthest from art. The clearest messages are advertisements. We should be able to interpret art (art can be fun, don't worry) many ways; compare Fight Club" 's multilayered points with the heavy-handed "Beauty" stuff. ("Beauty" is a movie of social realism.)
ok
America is a free country. In fact, America just about invented freedom. If someone doesnt like the idea of getting married and having kids, they dont have to. Why mock the people who do? Is there an alternative that you would prefer to the "American Dream"? Maybe the Soviet dream? or how about the Polish dream, my homeland. You guys would love Poland, we are absolute vagrants, no civility at all. Unfortunately, the only happiness is a bottle of vodka.
Those boring old married suburbanites in the US are what keeps the country prosperous. Traditional institutions are important, even if it would be more fun doing other things. And having fun does not exactly make happiness.
America is a free country. In fact, America just about invented freedom.
LOL
Who invent condom?
Hey I do anything to be happy. I tried the suburbanite thing and it just didn't work out. People are still trying to sell me on it though. Get a wife, pop out a few kids, by a house, go to church, and *poof* you're happy. I just don't buy it and from the looks of things a lot of other people who were sold on it early in life end up having problems later on. Oh well, I shouldn't talk about this stuff, it seems to put a lot of people on edge.
I guess I'm having an early "Mid-Life Crisis". At least I'm not putting a wife and child through it.
CV
Chris,
I don't pop in here too often but I found your comments interesting. I suppose a lot of people feel trapped to a certain extent in being married, obligated to house payments, etc. How do I say this? Oh well. We all need to get laid and it seems that the choice comes down to dating a lot of women or having one partner. Don't get me wrong. Being single and dating women is a lot of fun and enjoyable for a lot of reasons but I think most people prefer having the security (I might add safety as well) of one partner. As far as the "American Dream" I think it is a lot of crap as well. As you know I do have a wife and a child but I don't feel that I am trapped or anything like that.
Tom Haley
BTW I have been hanging out in Albuquerque since the beginning of April collecting unemployment, playing poker, and trading the markets more actively. I might be moving to Portland but I think I am going to stay in Albuquerque. I screwed up my unemployment and got a couple of job offers.
Hey Tom,
You need to give me your new E-Mail address. Did John get a hold of you?
I think a wife and child would be great, but it shouldn't be touted as the end all be all for happiness. I've grown up so much since my early 20s I think I'm actually a different person now. It would have been a terrible thing to have a family that I grew out of, or grew out of me. I have seen many young women with children abandoned so the husband can go find himself, its sad. It doesn't have to be that way, but society will have to start making some major changes.
CV
I rejected most middle classs values until the age of 42, I didn't want marriage, children ,a morgage, car payments a permanent residence or a job above providing more than subsistance. I worked seasonally, fished, gamboled, read and ran around. I was influenced by reading "Main Street" by Sinclair Lewis, Walden's Pond, the general climate of the 60's and my personal predilections. I have been married the last ten years. I have two stepchildren that I consider my own, a morgage and car payments. I've often contrasted the two very different lifesyles I'v led and thats why I found this thread so interesting. I don't really think you can compare the two and I look at them as two chapters of my life. They both had happy moments and struggles, but thats characteristic of all lifesyles. I still struggle with having to work full time make house payments{I'm not sure home ownership is such a joy} but I am convinced I'm doing right by the children. If I had not had children I would have continued living as I was. I don't feel the contempt for The American Dream as I did in the past, I believe its by far the best atmosphere to raise children.
ED I
I think your one of the few people who got it right the first time.
CV
Ivan,
You wrote: "And having fun does not exactly make happiness."
You are right. Happiness and fun are two different things. You can have a lot of fun and not be happy but if you are happy you will find a way to have the fun you need. Happiness is something one needs to work on and think about.
I'm a big fan of the serious, thoughtful, radio talk show host Dennis Prager out here on KABC in Los Angeles. He wrote a great book on happiness called "Happiness is a Serious Problem". You may want to check it out on Amazon or pick it up. I have a feeling you would like it based on your post.
Regards,
Rick
Tank you Rick. I will take a look at that.
"American Beauty" is a crashing failure! I don't care about the 'intentions' of the screenwriter or the director and I certainly don't give a hoot about the Academy awards & nominations (history has proven that the Academy awards do not correlate well with artistic merit). On the other hand, if "American Beauty" was trying to prove how fucked up a movie made in America and pretending to be beuatiful high art can be, then sorry I didn't get it right away and yes it's a runaway success!
Anyone has anything to say please don't bring up the truly talented cast or the directors "past achievements"; cinema history is litered with colossal disasters & embarassments, made with the best intentions and by very talented people. I will not do a full critique for you bums here, but just submit this token of evidence:
Oppressive father ----> ex-U.S. Marine officer
Crewcut hardass ex-U.S. Marine officer ---> repressed homosexual
....I rest my case.
You bring up the weakest part of the whole movie. I agree, the marine was phony and pretentious.
what was not phony was the beautiful color of the blood.
Hey boss-you missed the boat on this movie. It was all about show and perception with a little disfunction thrown in. Besides-it gave me a boner-and I am a jar head.
"Hey boss-you missed the boat on this movie. It was all about show and perception with a little disfunction thrown in. Besides-it gave me a boner-and I am a jar head."
Well, more accurately, the film wanted to be perceptive, it was supposedly about dysfunction - but, all in all, it was bad show through and through.
As to the boner, was it when she finally revealed the goods? Or, you being the artistic type, was it when the flower petals rained down on 'em? Kite wants to know.
For a variety of reasons I really like "upper-middle class white suburbia gone bad" type movies.
Interesting contrasts btwn AB and TIS. The adult and child roles (both characters and the acting performances), are somewhat flip-flopped btwn the two. The adults are a bit stereotypical and 'overacted' in AB, as are the kids in TIS.
I thought Sigourney Weaver and Kevin Kline(his best performance IMO) were superb in TIS, and so were Thora Birch, Mena Suvari and Wes Bentley in TIS. How Birch did not get a best supporting actress nomination is beyond me.
Choosing btwn the two is tough; AB is definitely funnier, but also much more 'manipulative'. TIS just lets the story happen and the big surprises come out of nowhere.
AND, unlike a person who shall remain nameless who's named after a poker movie, I won't spoil these surprises for those of you who haven't seen it yet.
Close call, but I'll take TIS by a hair (probably because it takes place in the '70s and thus there's no aging yuppie undercurrent).
So I had a little extra time on my hands this evening, and thought somebody or other might find this mildly interesting…
On the General Theory and Strategy Forum, Bill C. Asked,
I've noticed this before on Internet discussion boards, why is it when someone gives a sincere compliment someone else feels compelled to accuse them of sucking up?
Heh, good question. It's really a very curious bit of human behavior. I've been called this and similar names a few times, simply because I supported something written by S or M. (So far no one who has agreed with me about something has been called a "Feeney suck-up", but one day I think Vince may have been a Nebiolo suck-up. And Rick just did a Negreanu suck-up thing, so... Ah, I can't keep track.)
Of course the labeling is basically just silly, and often quite inaccurate. (For example, I learned much of what I know about poker by questioning *very* vigorously much of the mainstream thinking, inlcuding that of S&M -- more vigorously, I think, than those who do the name calling. [e.g., I doubt David remembers it, but much of the first couple of times I consulted with him were basically of the theme, "Why do you say that? That's not what you say in the book…"] Often I see the name callers at an early stage of questioning, where they conclude, without further analysis, that the authors are simply wrong about something. If they questioned and analyzed a little FURTHER, they'd come to see that perhaps their own view of the situation is a bit simplistic.)
But - now putting on my old, slightly rusty psychologist's hat - I have little doubt that the motive behind most of the "suck up" chants on the poker forums is self-esteem related. Without going into a lot of detail, by slightly varying routes the name callers seek to bolster damaged or generally fragile self-esteem through their public put downs of S&M or Two Plus Two. Anyone who disagrees with them, siding with S&M in debate, is felt as a threat to their efforts to bolster self-esteem, and so is simply taunted (which is easier than responding on a pure content level). After all, "He must be bad because he agrees with THEM. Either he and they are wrong, or I am unacceptable. I can't live with the latter, so I will try verbally to negate them all. That will validate ME as a person." That's pretty quick and dirty, but you get the picture.
I should point out, however, that the number of these particular name callers on the two major poker forums is smaller than it may appear. Long time observers may have noticed similar name calling from a number of different posters. They have used terms ranging from, "suck up" to "toady" to "sycophant", but the basic taunt is the same. The posters whom you may have noticed doing this have included rgp's Ed Wolf (AKA "HitTheFlop"), some short term posters here in the past including "Mark Harpo", "Dick Izinya", "Jeff Nelson", and a couple of more recent ones including "Scott Horton" and "Ron Schott". Well, it's understandable that they all sing the same tune. They're all the same person.
Ironically, Ed (the real name - I suppose) seems to be an *extremely* devoted student of Bob Ciaffone. (At one point I think he began looking more to Abdul for guidance, but I gather Abdul's style was a bit too "fast" for his taste.) In fact his comments could easily be seen as reflecting a real guru-follower mentality. Yet no one, including me, has called him names for this (though I think once I joked about it). And I doubt anyone would. It would be silly - which kind of highlights the silliness of the name calling in general. I mean it serves no purpose in enhancing debate. (It does, however, bring, hits to the Forums and, so, sales/money to those who the name callers seek to negate. Funny how that works.)
Plenty of posters here and on rgp question and debate various ideas in the 2+2 books without the infantile level of name calling and insults. Maybe Ed, his many faces, and the few others who occasionally take the same approach will come to see that this is possible. Or maybe they can just keep acting as publicity department for Two Plus Two. ;-)
p.s., sorry if my not respecting a poster's anonymity bothers anyone, but I kinda think Ed abused and so lost the privilege a long time ago.
Great post John. :-)
Be careful Howard.
John,
What hat were you wearing in the opening paragraphs?
Respectfully,
John
My general roustabout hat, John.
Hyper-respectfully,
John
Wow! John! You really are a superstar! Suck-up, suck-up! Not! I am impressed. It takes a little to impress me, so consider that a compliment or if you like a "suck-up". I am impressed because with just "a little time on your hands" you were able to dissertate or ramble depending on your point of view, (I guess) about a totally un "poker" related subject. And I thought that your PHD stood for Poker's Humble Deity and that poker was your only forte. Wrong again oh! Mongrel head. (Me, I'm referring to me as the Mongrel head. I didn't want you to think I was referring to you or Oz or someone else. IJust me. But, you, oh Freudian Maestro, already new that. Gee I'm getting the hang of this psycho stuff. I think.)
Mr. F"reud"eeney, I take it from your literary masterpiece above that you do not feel that that being called a "suck-up" is a positive thing. Especially by a "Wolf". In fact, you have gone to great lengths to explain why "name calling is silly". And yet the entire post smacks of name calling. Especially towards this "Wolf". You most Honorable Doctor are just calling a different name. Not a specific name for sure but an implied one for sure. Wow Badger would have fun with me on this one or maybe Mark Glover would jump right in my crapola. But yours Johndeeny is a blatant implication. The blatant implication can be derived from: "I have little doubt that the motive behind most of the "suck up" chants on the poker forums is self-esteem related." As you state in your treatise "I won't go into it here" but I'm sure any wizard that can understand the written woid will have no problem deciphering the meaning of that little tidbit. ( Hey John, I like you a lot, imagine if I didn't I'd really jump up and down on your grave.)
And what's with this Rick Nebiolo suck-up thing. Twice, "YOU" accuse Rick of sucking up. Once to me and once to Negreanu. Did you ever consider the fact that we are all three Italians. It's a culture thing. I bet we can find a Rick "suck-up" towards Rounder somewhere in the archives. "Dah, dah, dah, da, da, da, da, da, da, dah, da, dah---" (Does that dound like the God Father theme. I hope so cause that's what it's supposd to be).
Suck-up, idiot, mother-----, punk, pig head, etc, etc, etc, (A little King and I) Who cares. I posted a thread a long time ago titled "This Forum is Tough". You wanna post here then suck it in and put your soul out for dissection. Get out of the kitchen if the heat is too much. Why, "Suck-up", is such a mild term I don't think it even qualifies as a perjorative. (Didn't think I knew that woid now didge ya!) So who's afraid of a big bad "Wolf". Or as the Bard would say; A "Wolf" by any other name would odiferize the same as any other hound. See, John, now I just called Ed Wolf whoever he may bea dog. You see that don't you. By saying the thing about the Bard I was implying that a wolf.. But you, PHiD, guy knew that.
Bottom line is that suck-up, suck-out, suck-a.., suckle, etc, etc, etc (I liket that movie). They just don't matter!
Vince.
Yes I was impressed. Good post!
Well, Vince, you said a mouthful there! You were a suck up in places, but you counter-balanced it nicely with some non-suck-up stuff.
Quick clarification: I only accused Rick of one single instance of suck-upnitude. It was YOU, yes YOU oh Leporian one, who was on the receiving end of the second accusation, ya toady. You been taking your nose to the tanning salon lately??? But I jest. Since I know that you know that all the suck-toad-brown-up-nosiness talk is just hot air, I know you will take it as the nothingness that it is - or isn't, I guess. But, you know, Ray said some very complimentary things about S&M in a recent post, so I may have to bring him into this. Or maybe I'll let brother Paul handle that.
"Mr. F"reud"eeney, I take it from your literary masterpiece above that you do not feel that that being called a "suck-up" is a positive thing."
Well, I'm ambivalent about it. On the one hand I have a vague inkling that Mr. Wolf, for example, does not love me for the person I am. In fact, he did not respond to my past invitation to dine together in Oceanside. This saddened me more than you might guess. You see, all I really want is for Ed and, well, for everyone, really, to LIKE me. Like me, Ed. Please. In fact I now take back everything remotely contentious in my last post and, rather than challenge Ed to a heads-up poker match, as is so common these days, I challenge him to a HUG. That's right, if Ed ever comes around my neck of the woods, I promise to give him a big HUG - if he doesn't shoot or stab me first. Really.
On the other hand, as a Two Plus Two author now, the extra hits that the name calling brings to the forum will, in fact, line my pockets with more money. So, uhm, I guess it's win-win for everyone! Yeah, so name call away, and I'll be happy as a clam - I mean with the clams. In fact, maybe I was hoping to generate a little more name calling. Could it be? Please, someone give it a shot: "Feeney, you're a toadyish jerk who prefers JTs, you idiot!" There, does that get the ball rolling? Yeah, I'm tough, Vince, tough enough in the classic "you can't phase me no matter what, macho (male) poker player" sense of the word. Bring it on baby!
"In fact, you have gone to great lengths to explain why "name calling is silly". And yet the entire post smacks of name calling."
Ouch. You're probably right. But it was tough in this case to pose any sort of reasonable hypothesis that would not so smack. I DOUBLE take it back.
"Bottom line is that suck-up, suck-out, suck-a.., suckle, etc, etc, etc (I liket that movie). They just don't matter!"
Yeah, for you and me and the other tough guys here. But if I told you that Huck Seed's only reason for not posting here or on rgp was because he was uncomfortable with the kinds of behavior (flaming) that the Internet breeds, would it make any difference? Well, it COULD be… couldn't it??
"Well, it COULD be… "
Vince.
John,
After reading this post (response) of yours I am doubly convinced that I am duty bound to visit you in San Diego next month. I think you have missed a few appointments with "the shrink" and maybe I can help. Yeah, right! What I am I thinking. I'm more "nut" filled than you could ever be! BTW - Whose Huck Seed? Is he the one that fooled someone into whitewashing the fence? No, that was Tom McEvoy. Hmmm , no, no don't tell me I'll get it!
Vince,
Are you still coming by Los Angeles? If so, when? A few of us would like to "do lunch". Have "your people" call "my people" to arrange it.
Regards,
Rick
My Favorite Song
"Sucking Up Is Hard To Do"
ukw
Back in high school we used to make fun of all the geeks and nerds. They just weren't cool. They still aren't cool. Now you guys study books by other geeks and nerds and take it to the tables.
Yeah boss been there and done that. Makes it a lot harder to win. Too bad we can't get back to the good old days when it was easy to keep the geeks in their place.
Yeah the real problem is the books by S&M. All the toady suck ups are buying them for less than the cost of the buyin in a low limit game and making the games a lot harder to win.
Meant to respond to Dick. Like I said I go to the library to get my copies of the 2+2 books. There very good books and worth reading but I won't pay for them.
Yeah but the library has to go out and buy their own copies and you have to spend time and money getting to the library. Time is money you know.
Well at least I don't pay for them. I go to the library and read them.
.
John:
Am I correct in assuming that we have an official appearance of "The Trinity" here.
Mason, I think it's more like an official "tribute" to the whole crew, kind of like those bands that go around doing tributes to be Beatles. Close, but not quite the original. This was admirable work from a skilled forger.
Is he the low limit psychologist in AC with the hip pack and the OTB hat?
I just got done doing tests for increasing brain power at www.brain.com.
Needless to say i`ve got shit for brains.
I recommend this test and course highly for those that want to be truely the best player they can be.
The test aims at increasing your memory speed,perceptaul acuity,memory capacity,and perceptaul& cognitive reflexes..
.....best of decisions ..... jg
If it uses capital letters forget the non-cap people they wouldn't understand. "brain power" " shit for brains." " memory speed,perceptaul acuity,memory capacity,and perceptaul& cognitive reflexes."
Forget it jg maybe fishing in toilets, drinking during school or baiting hooks naked you might have a chance but using those above phrases will only confuse most readers and especially the LOWER CASE shiftless degenerates that inhabit old folks homes and drink out of the KEG litterally.
Brain Cramp Gotta Run
thanks paul you just made me piss my pants.
hey I`m one of those guys too (shit for brains)but hell the course is very well tailored to each persons capcity .(once your evaluated)
I actaully enjoy the 20 minutes a day and i feel more attuned as the sessions go by.
Its worth a look sincerely.
shit now i got to do laundry .......
jg
I used to think I only had depression and anxiety disorder. Thanks to brains.com, now I know I have bipolar disorder, post traumatic stress disorder, attention deficit disorder, anti-erection disorder and schizophrenia as well. I was better off not knowing. Thanks jg. Is paranoia next?
Hey if you havent seen "Mystery Alaska" I highly recommend it as a great guy flick.
I give it 4 pucks.
Now I have to get the puck out of here.
would that equal something like a four of akind or straight flush......p.s. never heard of the flick.
jg
It is at video stores in America now. Don't know if it made it to England it is about Hockey so maybe not much interest there.
I am not sure but I get the feeling you are a Brit.
I liked it a lot.
Since when did they put movie theaters in card rooms? my goodness is it that bad that we all have to talk about fishing and movies on this board? If I want to read about movies, there must be a hundred good places to go online, but when I want to read about poker or gambling there are much fewer choices. Where is Ray or Mason to stop this non-sense. Makes me miss the good ole days when Mason or David would give a poster a hard time for posting a tournament question in the other games board..."next time you have a question like this, it goes in the tournaments forum".
Maybe its that there is too much information or Mason and Ray decided they were giving up too much. I try to post regularly in the Other Games board and rarely hold back anything. Why can't they do the same?
WildBill,
The Forum may need a little adjustment here and there in terms of keeping individual forums on topic (where is Wrong Forum Man?) but to me there is definitely a place for non-poker BS. A lot of us know each other through our ideas and some have met because of the forum. Heck, I think it is fun to have Rounder give away endings to movies.
Since we have a stock market forum, we should shove off all pretense of this one being about poker and have a "Fun Stuff, Gossip and Ball-Busting" forum although I'm up for suggestions on the title. Maybe the Events forum could be rolled in. Then I would rename the "General Poker Theory Forum" the "General Poker and Poker Theory Forum".
If we did this, Wrong Forum Man could retire.
Regards,
Rick
since there seems to be a tilt factor on these forums ...I would like to see established the ,,"tilt forum,"This would get the bitchers out of the regular forums.
jg
jg,
But Vince Lepore would be the only poster!
Regards,
Rick
nt
oh we are not worthy of such a most excellent tilt miester host..
jg
.....LMAO....
But he certainly wouldn't be the only reader. Can't someone find Vince space for a column somewhere?
John
Rick,
I have retired. The volume of work on the General Theory Forum has caused me to burn out. My work was thankless, and I really did no good. The tangential postings just kept coming. Now I know how it feels to work for the U.S. Postal Office.
I always tried to give posts the benefit of the doubt. The General Theory Forum has become the Feud Forum. Constructive theoretical debate is out the window.
And yes, I have always viewed the Other Topics Forum as a place to mess around. It is a great place for posters to get to know each other personally.
WFM
WFM,
Still the best in my book of AAU.
paul
...or they do, and there's a huge parage and the mayor makes a great proclamation "Today is Wrong Forum Man Day." and all the children in the streets are yelling and laughing.
But then an evil poster comes in with Forum Domination on his mind, and you do nothing. And everyone yells "Wrong Forum Man! Where are you?" and yet still you don't show. And quickly the pleasent crowd of posters turns hostile.
"I never did trust that WFM." they murmur quietly. Riots form on the internet as the spread of evil postings increases to cosmic proportions. Boos and hisses suddenly ring out from all across the land. WFM turns his back in shame.
But not for long! Like all good superheros, WFM shines bright again. Faster than an ethernet connection. More powerful than Bill Gates at a 6-12 table, able to leap entire threads in a single click, it's Wrong Forum Man! Back on top of his form, he scolds the degenerate posters in a single sentence. Yet again, his legacy, his power, goes unnoticed a second time.
I will not let this stand. I for one acknowledge the power and honor of WFM.Let his message live on, and may he instill fear deap into the cold cold hearts of the careless posters.
For those about to post, we salute you!
Dan
Besides all poker all the time makes whatever a dull boy.
Wild Bill,I could be wrong,and maybe Mason or ray will correct me if I am, but I always thought "other topics" meant other topics, not just other poker topics.Sure, this website is for poker players,but sometimes poker players like to talk to other poker players about things not pertaining to poker.
its gotten so that this forum other topics is getting all about fishing and bears and things not about poker. it makes all those that want to discuss poker only have to go find the correct forum above to post their questions. to much confusion so i say we should eliminate all the poker crap and talk about the real values in life like fishing and making fun of fat face feeney(paul) im gonna get shit for that one.
I agree, this forum has taken a downward slant of late. When this "Other topics" forum first flared up, it became the place for the Montgomery Blair High School poker game to share simpsons allusions even though we were now on opposite ends of the country. It wasn't long ago that every other post was from Alex B. or Sadam Hussein. But now, it's all this american beauty fishing tripe. AAARRGG!
-James H.
Obviously you've never made a 30 foot cast to a 20" rainbow takeing spinners in the surfacefilm in 2 feet of gin clear water.
IMO "Subtle is the Lord:the Science and the life of Albert Einstein" by Abraham Pais,almost 20 years since I read this book I still remember a lot of thing from the book, I just order it want to read again (No,I'm not physics major). BTW Einstein is Time magazine person of the century.
Not bad, but I like John Paul Vann's Biography of sorts by Neil Sheean, "A Bright Shining Lie". It was alos a pretty crappy movie.
Ratso,
I'm with you on this one. A great book on the conflict in Viet Nam but a so so mini-series.
Maybe this isn't really a biography, but the chapter "Yeager" in the "Right Stuff" by Tom Wolfe is worth the price of the book by itself.
Regards,
Rick
Mick Foley's " A Tale of Blood and Dirty Sweat Socks"
I mentioned this below, but Sylvia Nasar's biography of mathematician John Nash, A Beautiful Mind, is really good.
John
In various posts on this board and on the texas h.e. board as well as in S#M's HPFAP, there is a consistent use of the word tourist to connote a bad player. I assume a tourist is someone who comes to visit Las Vegas(or elsewhere)but doesn't live there. I think that term is denigrating and really should not be used. I have been coming to L.V. (twice a year) for the last 10 years and have benn very sucessful in H.E. games, 10-20, and 15-30. I have won every year and average about 70% winning sessions.
I play poker on the East Coast and am considered a good player. In fact, I find the caliber of player to be tougher at the Taj in N.J. than most of the L.V. "locals.
I have been reading these boards for a while and am very impressed with the knowledge demonstrated by the posters as well as their ability to articulate their thoughts. However, instead of using the word "tourist" to stereotype a poor player, just say weakplayer. BTW, I'm not taking it personally, I just think it's in poor taste.
P.S. Keep posting, I love these boards.
Norm,there are some very good players who are tourist,some world class payers who do not live in Vegas could be called tourist also.That being said, I would rather be at a table full of people on their vacation then at a table filled with retiree's who play at the same casino everyday.Sure,not every tourist on vacation plays poorly and not every "local" plays well,but I still like my chances better at a table filled with vacationers out to have a good time,who know they have a limited time before it's back to their hometown and the vacation is over.
norm your point is understood .still let me say that we really need to loosen up in our society and get back to having a sense of humour.most skilled players use "tourist" more or less in jest .
the more weaker poorer(less confident) player would resort to this as derogatory.
I`m partly french and god some of the jokes would spin your head .Needless to say its in fun ..If its not then I feel niether angry nor resentful cause they dont know better due to thier intellengence and or self image
jg.
I was a long time in the making, but I finally pulled the plug on my job with Micron Tech. I just didn't get into Electronic Theory all that much. I seem to spend all my free time studying The Market and Poker.
I've got some free time on my hands now and I'm going to see how it feels to try to make a living from the game until school starts in the Fall. I plan on studying Business Finance with the goal of getting a CFA or CPA. So you guys will probably see me posting more often here.
Wish me luck,
CV
MJ
I was asked by a math prof. when I was at DePaul majoring in accountancy - why I would want to spent the rest of my life re-arranging 10 digits. I couldn't answar him.
I would much rather be a CFA (Chartered Financial Analysit) than a CPA (Certified Public Accountant), but most people are more familiar with the CPA title and they're not too far removed from each other (I've seen people with both titles) so I put it in my post.
CV
Please Chris don't tell me you really think a CPA and a CFA are close! A CFA takes 3 years and is geared exclusively for financial analysts. Indeed some people have both, but the CFA takes about 3 times the effort in the long run. Just think of having to pass a CPA exam three times, thats about what a CFA takes. If you really don't understand or can't distinguish between then two you better spend some of this time figuring it out because your career choices are greatly varied depending on what you get.
For a simple primer, most people that want to be financial advisors or in the investment world get a CFA instead of or in addition to an MBA. If you just follow an accounting path in your career you will be wasting your time with a CFA as a CPA can be sufficient, and an MBA is icing on the cake.
As for being familiar with the term its because a CPA is far far more common. Anyone can take the CPA provided they took required college classes but a CFA requires either working in an investment capacity or getting someone to lie for you which is quite common. If you pass either certification you will have no problems finding people to employ you to get the required work experience that goes with them.
Hi, I thought someone on here might have some insight for me. I am curretnly a floorman at a small poker room in Vegas. I have a chance to go deal at a small room in CA. I think the money will be better in CA, but I am not sure if this will be seen as a backward career move. I mean I don't know if 6 months or a year from now if I apply for a job as a floorman in a large club if they will ask "well why did you leave ______ to take a dealing job?" Thanks in advance to anyone that has any insight.
Randy,
At Hollywood Park Casino I've seen several move between both jobs. I don't know of any real stigma. In addition, many clubs like dealers who can work the floor in a pinch in case a floorman is on vacation or sick.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. I thought dealers were over floormen in the pecking order anyway ;-).
Do you knoew howwwww miuch people post on this forum?
L:et's all ibve a litlle
get drunk Q!!!!!!!!!!!1\ ] Get drunk colllege is grrewaat@@~!!@%##2!!
I think this post is deeper than it seems. My grandfather spent the last 40 years getting drunk and passing out in the livingroom lazy-boy in front of the TV. An other person I know of spends all his time Stoned out of his mind.
Whenever I think about getting Drunk, I think about all the information I'm missing, all the life that I'm missing. Even sex sucks when drunk. Yeah, I got a little, but I can't remember how good it was.
Don't get me wrong, a little alcohol can liven things up a bit, but all those people who spend their free time drinking and partying are missing something I think.
CV
Doing any one thing all the time is limiting. Life is great; experience everything. The ups, the downs, the hangovers, everything. It's all a part of life and life is great.
-James H.
Small caps scott, james H., DjTj, and all the Young Turks whose opinion I respect (especially when scott says "Rick is cool" when I know I'm not),
I need your help.
But first a little background. When you get older you tend to lose track of what is going on in the music world. Anyway, I play many MP3s while I am posting, but it is mostly stuff I have ripped from my own CD collection. I have the full version ($29) of MusicMatch jukebox and play it though Cambridge Soundworks "Soundworks" speakers. I'm thinking of upgrading my speakers to CSW "Microworks", which can be had for about $90 factory reconditioned via Ebay and giving the other speakers to a friend I owe a favor.
Anyway, I like listening to MP3s or CDs while I surf and write. When I checked out MP3.com, it was mostly second rate stuff (as far as I could tell). Then I heard about Napster.com and just downloaded it. I figured it would be stuff that college kids like or bands such as Metallica that are in the news regarding this site.
Was I wrong! I just downloaded a REM song I love (Man in the Moon), a Paula Cole song, a Laura McKennitt song, and a U2 song. Meanwhile, someone in cyberspace is uploading a few old Doors songs from my machine while I write this. I also saw they have relatively obscure bands/singers I like such as Indigo Girls, the BoDeans, and Maria McKee (ex Lone Justice - highly recommended). They even have old fart stuff like Mozart, Andreas Bocelli and so on. I haven't checked on Barry Manilow yet (just kidding).
Now I know why this site is in the news. Anyway, I'm willing to listen to some stuff you guys recommend. I know you previously listed some stuff that I should be able to find in the archives, but this time I'm interested in sampling suggestions from you guys based on what you might think I like based on the above. No hip hop, no heavy metal, no rap, and you need to understand I just don't get Beck's "Odelay" (I thought I was buying Jeff Beck when I got it just to show how uncool I am).
Anyway, please sober up before replying. I know what Friday night is like in college.
Regards,
Rick
Rick-Ain't Napster great?!? You can't go wrong with Yo La Tengo. You'll never hear them on the radio or see them on TV so I feel obligated to spread the word about them. They have a cult following so you can usually find a lot of their stuff on Napster. Try these songs: Upside Down (acoustic), Autumn Sweater, Let's Save Tony Orlando's House, Tears Are In Your Eyes. And if you have any interest in Jamaican-influenced music give Hepcat and The Slackers a chance. And don't be fooled by the youth=coolness myth. About half the people I go to school with are about as cool as Orrin Hatch. LOL. James
Music to screw by - guess I am showing my advanced age.
Rounder,
Don't feel left out. Sinatra is there. I just did a search for "Sinatra" in the Artist box and "My Way" in the Title box. I got back about 50 hits. I downloaded it in about one minute (I have DSL). I'm listening to it now. Meanwhile, someone is uploading a Bocelli song from my machine (Opera snobs better not be laughing - I know it is not the real thing but I like it).
Do you have any Sinatra songs to recommend besides the obvious. The only album/CD I have is "September of My Years".
Regards,
Rick
Frank did a good "Bad Bad Leroy Brown" rendition.
That's Life - Chicago are a couple of my favs.
Of course being a Chicago boy the Group Chicago is another of my favs.
I also have Johnney RIvers, CCR, Witney and Lionel RIchie with me in the car when I tire of talk radio,
Cheers Mike
I once read some musicians' lists of the 5 albums they would take with them if they were going to a desert island for the rest of their lives. One of Iggy Pop's picks was Sinatra's double album, "Sinatra at the Sands". I agree.
A great song, which is especially great if you first watch The Pope Of Greenwich Village, is "The Summer Wind".
Sinatra - music to screw anyone who crosses you by. Concrete overcoat anyone ?
Andy.
Lines from a song by Cracker (yes, some alternative-rock type band that you might get a kick out of):
What the world needs now Is a new Frank Sinatra So I can get you in bed
Uston,
They are there to! I'm listening to "Autumn Sweater" now. Now the big question. Am I ripping this artist off or will this give me a chance to sample them and maybe buy the CD (CDs sound much better than MP3s but I have a pretty good sound system).
Regards,
Rick
Rick-You're probably ripping off the artist. Personally, I don't use Napster to sample music so I can later buy the CD. I download songs so I don't have to buy the CD, despite the slightly worse sound quality. Besides, if you're downloading songs with bitrates over 128, the CD is no better. James
I like Napster's ban of 300,000 Metalica fans. Ha Ha, big PR disaster for Metalica. Can you say "We're only in it for the money"? Metalica's efforts are futile it’s just too easy to send information these days.
I was thinking that books like 2+2's poker books would be great if they were in electronic form. Now that I think about it, they would be best to stay in book form so that they couldn't be easily reproduced and pirated.
CV
My personal favorite groups are Jimi Hendrix, Soundgarden, Foo Fighters, Primus, and Rage against the Machine.
There are FTP sites and newsgroups (I forget the name)that have TONS of MP# classified by era, year, style etc. I will look on my pirate server at work and hopefully will e-mail you some sites. A firewall at work discourages my sending and receiving MP3's from outside.
napster is great.
my school year ended a few days ago so i am back home in dc, without a good internet connection or a place to play cards.
i use napster mostly for bob dylan (i must have 100 dylan songs) and classical. (when i am playing cards online beethoven's 9th, 4th movement is my lucky song. almost half an hour of good luck. it's a good pick for a lucky song.) i also have a couple interesting versions of things. like jimi's version of like a rolling a stone. or primus's take on have a cigar.
i have most of my music on cds, but i picked up some black crowes, chris isaak, george clinton, and zz top off of napster.
while napster is good at having more than just top 40 bands, i find it difficult to find whole cd's from most bands. for example, i find it very difficult to negotiate blues and jazz on napster. you never know which version of who playing what.... but with rock and classical it works well. well, maybe i just dont know enough about classical to know its not working, because i would think that it would matter very much which version you get, like blues or jazz, but i cant really tell the difference. whatever.
i really like blind melon. i would have gotten no rain off of napster if i hadn't bought the cd. which has great songs that never hit radio.
i like chris's choices except for the foo fighters. i would like to explicitly second primus.
i like john lee hooker and albert king and buddy guy and bb king and stevie ray vaughn and all the rest of the blues guys. but i think cd's are probably still better for most of that.
they dont have my favorite doors songs. i like 5 to 1 and peace frog and the spy. but i have them on cd.
i got a long concert version of dazed and confused. and a couple of thorogood songs that i also have on cd.
i really like dylan.
how to you get mp3's from a cd?
you are in denial about being cool. if you insist that you are not cool, you should provide at least one rational argument to support that. we can't be expected to take things on faith, can we? the whole purpose of this site is discussion. so you had better back up your claim if you want to win us over to the "rick is not cool" side.
scott
scott,
I went into musical oblivion much of the last ten years. My stereo was hooked up next to the TV, which was always on when my wife was home. So music was out in the house. In front of the computer is where I do most of my listening now. When I lived in Rhode Island, I often went to clubs in Boston and Providence that played live original music, especially where you stood up to watch the band. Most of these places were one level more sane than "mosh pit" type places. Out here, I've gone to House of Blues a few times and found it to be a great venue.
For blues, check out a guy named Duke Robillard. He is a Rhode Island native who founded the band Roomful of Blues and played with the Fabulous Thunderbirds.
An obscure band with a singer that has a beautiful voice is "Over the Rhine". They warmed up Cowboy Junkies and I was glad I bought their CD "Good Dog, Bad Dog".
Regarding making MP3s from CDs, the software programs MusicMatch or Real Jukebox make it easy. Basically, you just record from the CD. Go to www.mp3.com for links to the software downloads and general information on creating MP3 songs from your own CDs. I would go with the free version for either one. That web site also offers reviews and downloads for specialty MP3 file stuff. What I do not know yet is how to transfer the files I downloaded from Napster to my Musicmatch library (MusicMatch will play them, they just won't select them from it's own playlist).
The following will prove I'm not cool:
1. I use a Flowbee to cut my hair.
2. I keep a lava lamp on in the bedroom when I sleep. I bought it at Walmart. In fact, I think Walmart is a great place to shop.
3. I rip off the fast food places by always getting the 99-cent specials and keep my own water bottle in the car for drink. They lose money on me.
4. I like Andreas Bocelli.
5. I don't understand why Beck is so popular.
6. I like Leno much more than Letterman.
7. I'd rather watch Jeopardy than "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire".
8. I won't let my best friend watch that asshole Jerry Springer in my house, even if I'm not in the room.
9. I'd like to take up bowling because of the neat shirts you get to wear.
10. I bought my favorite piece of clothing of all time at Sears.
11. I think Dan Quayle got a bum rap and that he would easily beat Al Gore in any test of general knowledge, intelligence, and even spelling.
12. I think George Will and Charles Krauthammer are great pundits.
13. My idea of diversity is having an admitted Republican and/or Conservative get tenure in a liberal arts department in any Ivy League University.
14. I drink water from the tap.
15. I didn't get on the internet until 1998.
16. I never leave the house with dirty dishes in the sink.
17. In fact, I like housework and find it calms my nerves.
18. I mostly listen to talk radio in the car.
19. I think most recycling is a waste of time and energy except for cans.
20. I use capital letters.
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
9. I'd like to take up bowling because of the neat shirts you get to wear.
I agree Rick uncool is you just for this statement alone. I suppose you liked the final day golf shirts the Americans were wearing in the Ryder Cup!!
Paul Who Always Hated The Word Cool!!!
"I think Dan Quayle got a bum rap and that he would easily beat Al Gore in any test of general knowledge, intelligence, and even spelling."
Wow. Are you a betting man? With respect, I'd suggest you read up some more on Dan before backing up that statement with good and much-needed-elsewhere money. Check the link, for starters. Even though I'm sure you're familiar by now with all those true Quayle quotes, how do you explain them?
ok, let's go through it.
1. I use a Flowbee to cut my hair.
i dont know what a flowbee is. but i cut my own hair or have my sister do it for me. so, i cant really argue this point without all the facts. let's go on.
2. I keep a lava lamp on in the bedroom when I sleep. I bought it at Walmart. In fact, I think Walmart is a great place to shop.
being entertained by shiny objects does not weigh on your coolness, as much as your other attributes. liking walmart is ok. as long as you hate kmart because of its association with rosie odonnel.
3. I rip off the fast food places by always getting the 99-cent specials and keep my own water bottle in the car for drink. They lose money on me.
this is cool. i, too, keep my own water bottle handy. or if i dont i just ask for free water. i think only chumps buy sodas at restaurants.
4. I like Andreas Bocelli.
i am afraid i do not know bocelli. i think he is a classical musician. i will delay judgement here as with the flowbee.
5. I don't understand why Beck is so popular.
i am certain no one understands why anything is popular.
6. I like Leno much more than Letterman.
i can't help you there. neither is good, but leno is worse. i think. i haven't watched either in a while so i could be mistaken. tom green and conan are the good talk show hosts.
7. I'd rather watch Jeopardy than "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire".
who wants to be a millionaire sucks. but jeopardy is only good when it's celebrity jeopardy. do you know who plays connery? whoever it is is great.
8. I won't let my best friend watch that asshole Jerry Springer in my house, even if I'm not in the room.
crazy rules like that are super cool.
9. I'd like to take up bowling because of the neat shirts you get to wear.
you dont have to bowl to wear the shirts.
10. I bought my favorite piece of clothing of all time at Sears.
my mom buys all my clothing. i dont know where she buys them. maybe sears.
11. I think Dan Quayle got a bum rap and that he would easily beat Al Gore in any test of general knowledge, intelligence, and even spelling.
i think few politicians, or people for that matter, are intelligent. when average or even rather intelligent people have most of their babblings recorded for posterity they will sound more foolish than any functional person can in fact be. still, i think i could beat any of them at anything. including kick boxing.
12. I think George Will and Charles Krauthammer are great pundits.
i dont think anyone is a great pundit. this one counts against you.
13. My idea of diversity is having an admitted Republican and/or Conservative get tenure in a liberal arts department in any Ivy League University.
tsk, tsk. politics again? who cares? remember, if you're not apathetic, you're pathetic.
14. I drink water from the tap.
this one definitely weighs in your favor. john is right. bottled water is for weenies. hey! i just thought of a rhyme. look at john feeney, he's a big weenie. i bet i am not the first person in his life to exploit that rhyme. kids can be so cruel.
15. I didn't get on the internet until 1998.
i ardently opposed the internet until i found the forum. now i do email, instant messanger, and all the rest. but you remember my arrival just last fall.
16. I never leave the house with dirty dishes in the sink.
i am sorry, but this is markedly uncool.
17. In fact, I like housework and find it calms my nerves.
an affinity towards work is so alien to my nature i know not how to respond. we'll throw this one out.
18. I mostly listen to talk radio in the car.
uncool.
19. I think most recycling is a waste of time and energy except for cans.
recycling is a waste of time. strike one for cool.
20. I use capital letters.
to each his own. but capital letters are uncool.
so. in your attempt to prove you're uncool you asserted 20 statements. of those, i could not understand several. but of those i could, at least half were in fact reasons you are cool.
if it is so difficult for you to come up with arguments that you are forced to masquarade false arguments, then you must be cool. i rest my case.
scott
"bottled water is for weenies. hey! i just thought of a rhyme. look at john feeney, he's a big weenie. i bet i am not the first person in his life to exploit that rhyme. kids can be so cruel."
They sure can. Much of fourth grade was hell for me as a result of that rhyme. I'm almost over it though. I wonder if brother Paul shared the same experience.
My brother-in-law, who knows I like the new Steely Dan CD told me yesterday that Walter Becker's more obscure "Eleven Tracks of Whack" is in the same league. However, just listening to snips from the songs at the Amazon site, I'm not so sure, not so sure at all.
Rick, I suspect you'd like the Cranberries' first two CDs (albums, MP3s, whatever the proper term is). Their current one is supposed to be good too.
John,
I have the Cranberries CD "To the Faithful Departed". I tend to like that sort of alternative rock. While I was checking the title, I saw a CD on my shelf by Bruce Cockburn. Check out the song "If I Had a Rocket Launcher", which is on Napster (at least right now - I guess this depends on who is logged on).
Regards,
Rick
Scott,
1. I use a Flowbee to cut my hair. ...i dont know what a flowbee is. but i cut my own hair or have my sister do it for me. so, i cant really argue this point without all the facts. let's go on.
I just realized that you are so damn young that "Wayne's World" probably came out before you could go out of the house to the movies. If you have seen it, a Flowbee is that device they made fun of in an opening scene. You attach to a vacuum cleaner. It sucks up your hair and then cuts it the same length everywhere. Around the edges, you can taper a little with an angled attachment. I use scissors for in front of my ears. It works for me because I have thin, straight hair and keep a sort of Robert Redford style except I hate hair on my forehead. I haven't spent money on a barber in seven years.
.3.... so long as you hate kmart because of its association with rosie odonnel.
K-Mart is just second rate but I do dislike Rosie. I am so uncool that I do not know why it would be cool to do so.
4. I like Andreas Bocelli. ...i am afraid i do not know bocelli. i think he is a classical musician.
Actually, I should have said Andrea Bocelli. He is to Opera what Boston Pops is to classical music (the Newsweek reviewer called it "Popera"). His album Romanza sold about a trillion copies last year. Check out "Con Te Partiro" and you will get the general idea. I love that song (and so does someone else you know).
6. I like Leno much more than Letterman. ...i can't help you there. neither is good, but leno is worse. i think. i haven't watched either in a while so i could be mistaken. tom green and conan are the good talk show hosts.
I agree that Conan is great but he is in a different time slot. I never even heard of the other guy. How cool is that?
7. I'd rather watch Jeopardy than "Who Wants to Be a Millionaire". ...who wants to be a millionaire sucks. but jeopardy is only good when it's celebrity jeopardy. do you know who plays connery? whoever it is is great.
Regarding Connery, you must be talking of the Saturday Night Live skit. That is funny stuff. Maybe I am cool there.
9. I'd like to take up bowling because of the neat shirts you get to wear. ...you dont have to bowl to wear the shirts.
Actually, I stole this idea from my friend John Cole who now participates in the forum and lives back east. Stealing other people's jokes is not cool.
10. I bought my favorite piece of clothing of all time at Sears. ...my mom buys all my clothing. i dont know where she buys them. maybe sears.
Your Mom buys your clothing! You have got to be kidding! That can't be cool, but then again, kids actually want to live at home after college these days. Doing that when I was young was considered pathetic. We would rather live in cockroach infested hellholes with flea market furniture.
11. I think Dan Quayle got a bum rap and that he would easily beat Al Gore in any test of general knowledge, intelligence, and even spelling. …i could beat any of them at anything. including kick boxing.
Quayle would kill you at golf.
I'm almost out of gas. The rest are self-evident. I'll settle for being half-assed cool. Unless that is not cool.
Regards,
Rick
Hey Rick,
Check out Bellevue Cadillac; they turned down the invitation to play at JFK Jr.'s wedding because they had already been booked. (A friend at work gave me a signed CD by them for my birthday.)
Sinatra's "My Way" is, for me, the worst song of all time. Unless, of course, it's the Sex Pistols version.
Tom Waits' new CD is really good, as are all the rest over the last seven or eight years. (Note: you can also download music at Amazon.com, some of it good. I've got a couple Cowboy Junkies' songs on my computer at work from there.)
Just so Rounder doesn't get pissed at me, I'll add that Sinatra's Songs for Swinging Lovers CD is one of my all time favorites.
For jazz, check out Marcus Roberts' new version of Rhapsody in Blue; it's like Gerswhin meets West Side Story--superb.
John
John,
You wrote: "Sinatra's "My Way" is, for me, the worst song of all time. Unless, of course, it's the Sex Pistols version."
When you visit, I'll repeatedly play the Sinatra version on the jukebox of this little hole in the corner bar (pool/darts/cheap drinks) where they don't enforce the no smoking law. Think "Met Cafe" minus the live music
But how can you say that about the Sex Pistols' version (actually I think it was a solo effort by Sid Vicious)? It is played over the final credits of "Sid and Nancy", a movie with one of my all time favorite lines. It's perfect.
Rick
Rick,
Yes, maybe my all-time favorite movie line: "Ack, I look like f...ing Stevie Nicks!" Is that it?
John,
That is it! Don't tell me I stole that one too! No, I think we arrived at loving the genius of that line independently or maybe I mentioned that to you. It would seem the odds are against it, as you know about one hundred times more about movies than I do, unless of course it concerns movies the average guy has actually seen.
The bowling shirt thing refuting scott's assertion was all yours, or was it Andy's?
Rick
Ever hear Juliana Hatfield? :)
I don't mind using Napster! Do you really want to give money to Ghostface Killah?
Indigo Girls obscure??? LOL. If you like them you should try Dar Williams or Ani DiFranco.
Dan,
I didn't mean obscure to the average thirty something and younger college type. I'm 45 (damn, make that 46) years old. None of my friends out here ever heard of them and there is only one radio station in Los Angeles that plays their music. "Closer to Fine" is about my all time favorite song.
Regards.
Rick
P.S. I'll look up your recommendations later. Thanks
Rick,
We (that's Mary and I) have every Indigo Girls album; am I no longer one of your friends? Try Dan's suggestion of Ani DiFranco. Also, you might like Patty Larkin's Angels Running CD.
John
John,
I said "out here", as in when are you guys going to come visit "out here". My ludite friend Greg (think what Andy would be like if he played poker for a living and was less neurotic) doesn't even have a stereo of any sort. No one else I know well can get beyond what they listened to when they were in school.
Rick
...or Liz Phair and PJ Harvey.
Rick-
Not sure how Napster works vis-a-vis copyrights and the like, but my understanding is that they are facilitating the unauthorized copying and distribution of other's work. I don't like it.
Just replace "downloaded" with "stole" in your original post an see how cool it sounds.
I love music, too. I think those that make music I love deserve to get paid for it.
Michael 7,
Obviously there are a lot of issues here. But in my case, the musicians and record companies will make more money.
For example, I'm just starting to get into classical music. When I hear of a supposedly great recording, I'm never sure if it is something I would like except for the more famous ones. With Napster, I can download an MP3 file and sample it. Eventually I will get the CDs because I have a decent HiFi and the fact is full CD format does sound a lot better.
While I was writing this, I was showing Napster to my computer illiterate, ludite friend. I challenged him to come up with a song it didn't have (within reason). He asked me to find "I'd Love to Change the World" by Ten Years After. For those of you not in your late forties, the big issue when you were about fourteen years old was whether Ten Years After or Grand Funk Railroad was the better band. Napster had it and we are listening to it. But we both already paid for it - when we were fourteen!
I don't have all the answers, but my guess is the music industry will prosper in the future. The big record companies may go the way of the horse and buggy. And CDs will drop in price to about $8 or so, which is what they should be. At that price, why not buy the CD?
Regards,
Rick
Rick, I’m certainly not a Young Turk, but I’m not as old a geezer as you. If you like old rock and roll (Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry) and first wave punk (The Clash, The Ramones), I think you’ll love Spoiled Rotten, a band I dug up on mp3.com. I’ve been pushing the group to whomever will listen. Unlike Napster, these mp3s are legal. I like "Lies" best, but all of the songs on their site are very good. I liked them enough to buy the CD.
If anyone cares, I’ve also written an essay in which the band figures prominently.
Rick,
So, what's wrong with Mozart. There have been studies done that say classical music is good for your memory. Einstein listened to him. Isn't that good enough of an endorsement?
mah,
I love Mozart. I just didn't figure to that I would be able to get his music on the internet.
Rick
mah,
I love Mozart. I just didn't figure to that I would be able to get his music on the internet in MP3 format.
Rick
x
I'll second previous recommendations of Hendrix, Soundgarden, Primus, Rage Against the Macine, Blind Melon and add The Offspring, The Radiators (great, and I mean great, jam band) Cowboy Mouth (studio material ok, live act is excellent), and Dramarama, although they have disbanded some time ago.
I found Copeland's Appalachian Spring, at 27 megs it was quite a download. Also several Girl from Ipanemas, and some Weather Report. And about 300 other songs...it is addicting, poking around napster and hoping to find a gem or two.
And re Quayle, I've read personal interviews with him. He really is anvil-stupid, a very good example of someone who never had to exert himself for anything in life, having had his college career, law degree, and House of Representatives seat handed to him by his rich relations. These latter facts about him have never been disputed and I don't see how anyone can find them attractive in a leader.
Yeah, kinda like Al Gore.
Actually I think Bush II is more similar, but Quayle really is in a class by himself.
I realize that certain people who wish to reacquire poltical power will do or say anything on these subjects to back their boy. I just wish they would be more forthright about why they are publicy supporting these people. I don't see frankly how anyone without a rubber stamp, simplistic mainstream party bias can find anything admirable in the major party candidates, or the way in which they have been served up for our consumption.
I know it. I'll either be voting Libertarian or for Nader again. Put Bush and Gore in Celebrity Jeopardy and they would both lose to Dom DeLuise. LOL
Rick,
First thing to realize is that most of the crap on MTV and the radio is exactly that......comercialized crap. So try to stay away from that stuff. There is one exception though, that you may like. Try a CD by Green Day, one that is excellent is titled "1,000 Smoothed Out Slappy Hours"(the title is kind of lame, I know, but the CD is a perfect 10). If you like that CD let me know. If you cant find that one try "Dookie" (also by green day), that one is more popular in terms of sales but IMO not quite as good.
I usually just listen to punk but most people dont like it very much. The CD that I suggested is actually punk rock, but it is of the more mellow and highly melodic variety.
Kris
Hmmm...well, there is no arguing taste though I find it hard to believe someone would categorize Green Day as non-commercial.
I can recommend a recent opus by The Prodigy. The name escapes me, but it concerns methods for handling domestic interpersonal relations in a prompt and effective manner. ;)
LOL. I could tell you the name of it but I'm afraid it would be a misuse of the forum.
Broncosaurus,
Of course you are correct, Green Day is super commercialized now but the CD I suggested was when they were still a small Berkley punk band. They used to play venues with like 20 people watching them. Also, Dookie doesn't sound as "commercial" as most of that other MTV garbage.
Goat
Even Phil can't out tilt this guy.
And with that breathing aparatus up his nose, he looks like quite a few casino players I know.
Dan
Hello - I've been reading 2+2 forums for several months; started gambling in the riverboar casinos of southeastern Indiana last fall; mostly blackjack, but some craps. Anyway, back in November I was on a gamlin' weekend that I had planned for several weeks; Friday evening and all day Saturday. Saturday afternoon things started runnin' bad; then got worse. About 11pm I was busted out, but still had the 'need' for action. I had chatted with several casino personnel throughout the day and sought a sympathetic ear; I explained that I had no more cash, but still wanted to gamble. They said sorry; I offered that I had 2 Bengals' tickets and wanted to bet them. They called a floor manager over and the floor manager happened to also have 2 Bengals' tickets. A deal was struck. So I played a hand of blackjack for two Bengals' tickets; and lost; then I had four Bengals' tickets. I hope this isn't the wrong forum, man. -the madd hatter
Just having the craving for action is normal. Gambling becomes a problem when you start using the plastic loan sharks, rent money, or car payment.
When you go on one of these gambling binges, you need to take breaks when the going gets bad. For example, when the Crap table is choppy or cold, and you've lost the last ten bets. Or when the Blackjack dealer always beats you by one. For example, you get dealt two face cards, the dealer has a six as his upcard, then he draws and makes 21. It's time to take a break.
Sometimes, just taking a break for an hour or two will do it. A lot of players become unglued and lose control. They end up spending there whole bankroll within minutes trying to catch up by increasing their bets.
If you are that "out of control" you need to stop.
Get help there are organizations for that sort of thing.
We here are - for the most part - not gamblers. We are poker players. Hope you can understand the difference.
I think this was a joke. Not that a gambling problem is a joke, but look at Mad's second to last sentence.
Dan
All behaviors have a positive intention at some level. Try to figure out what the positive intention of the part of you who came up with the compulsive behavior is and come up with at least three ways of implementing that positive intention.
Bet 2 Bengals tickets lost and ended up with 4 tickets. Hmmm.... yeah the "Bungles" are pretty bad.
It's a twist on an old joke.
BTW/The only time I've seen it, were it wasn't funny.
If you wish to catch my latest 15 seconds of fame, check out the current issue of SmartMoney magazine, and read Taken for a Ride By Lee Clifford, or click this link (if it works):
http://www.smartmoney.com/smt/consumer/index.cfm?story=priceline
If you're not interested in reading the entire article, just check out the last paragraph.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
15 seconds of fame, but it took 15 minutes of reading to get to it. What does that mean? I don't know. But I do know that I wouldn't be advertising my poundfoolishness on the same website that I'm trying to pimp my TOC action. :)
But you were going to Las Vegas. You expected to be gambling, right?
Dan
Greg,
You gotta love driving to Boston (hehehe). Thanks for the warning.
It's vacation time again and I've decided to spend a week in Las Vegas. I will be there from May 17th - 23rd. I plan on playing as many low-limit tournaments I can stand, and watch the final table at the WSOP on Thursday. If any 2+2 posters would like to get together for breakfast, lunch, or dinner, you can leave a message for me at Harrah's under my real name.
Mark Heide
good luck in vegas mah and keep your kool and play your best.
Are you buying??? Haha, that I can't miss.
Well I would be up for it as long as you don't ask questions about lotteries for Pete's sake! Just for your info, seems the action in town has dried up a bit. The live ones are gone and the tournament at the Orleans was smaller than it has been. I am sure you will still get plenty of play there, but no more 13 table tournaments for awhile I think. Same goes for the live action, seems like the regulars are starting to retake the games.
Mason, David, ray, and Chuck,
After the recent frenzy of false posting using the name of well-known players, I understand the need for displaying a link to the acceptable use policy at the top of the message indexes.
I do think there is a problem with the General Theory Forum. I think it should be broadened to include General Poker and Poker Theory (i.e., any non-game specific poker issues, and those that are theoretical in nature). That is what it is anyway.
But what is the role of the Exchange (a.k.a. "Other Topics")? Obviously, we are having a lot of fun with some non-poker-related topics, and I am one of the biggest offenders. So, I am violating the "acceptable use policy". But we have ray zee discussing trout fishing and bears, and all sorts of discussions of movies, books, and stuff that reveals who we are when we are not playing poker. I even learned that Mason was a big fan of "The Twelve Dream's of Dr. Sardonicous (sp?)" by the band Spirit, which was a classic album during my college years. So I happen to think it serves a purpose, as over time many of us have met and are getting to know each other as people. And as people, we have many interests outside poker.
That being said, I would perhaps vote for one more split. Let's have a forum devoted to "Poker Events and Poker Gossip" (I'm open to a better title) and one devoted to "Poker Players Other Lives". Again, I'm open to a better title.
Comments, flames, and feedback are of course welcome.
Regards,
Rick
the exchange is for other topics. if you want a poker topic on it put in your subject line stating something about poker, if you are not interested in my fishing posts dont open them. i think it works fine as it is. wait till the golf stuff starts being posted.
I interpret the "Other Topics" as those things that one might discuss during a poker game at a table. I think Ray's fishing posts, Rick's "best of" posts are fun to read and add some flavor. Now if we can get Jim Brier to talk about some space (stellar space that is) we'll have a more rounded Other Topics. Funny I wondered about acceptable use also.
ratso,
I'd love to hear Jim's thoughts (and I would guess fustrations) about the space program. I hope we will get a chance for him to "blast off" here:-).
Regards,
Rick
NT
ray,
I like your fishing and bear posts. I used to fish a lot myself (mostly saltwater, which is much better where I am from). It is just that the acceptable use policy seems to indicate that this type of thing is not OK any more (maybe it never was, but it was clearly tolerated).
I agree the Exchange works fine and doesn't need to be split if it is OK with you guys at 2+2. But you may want to modify the policies to be forum specific and then be serious about enforcing the rules. The false McEvoy and T.J. posts were clearly over the line.
Regards,
Rick
Excuse me if I seem to be prying but your stating that you came from somewhere else promts this question. I may have met you in the mid 80's at the Bike. Did you and your wife quit corporate jobs in the East and head for the Bike. If it is you , you were playing mostly 5/10{prior to the antes} and 10/20 at this time. Again excuse me if this line of inquirey is out of line. Your photo on Dick's poker page looked familiar.
ED 1,
That was probably my wife Jan and I although we rarely played or commuted together. I quit Hughes Aircraft Company at the end of 1989 as the Cold War was winding down. During the eighties, I worked for Hughes in a field office near Newport, Rhode Island where I grew up and frequently traveled to Los Angeles to use a lab in Fullerton. During those years I played a lot at the Bike and went from 5/10 to 10/20 just before the "antes" were added to the holdem game. I took a transfer to Los Angeles in the beginning of 1989.
Meanwhile, Jan was a psychiatric social worker who worked for a county mental health agency in Rhode Island. During those years, funding was cut to the bone and she was essentially forced out of her job. During this period, she got serious about learning poker. She worked very hard on her game and I thought she would have a chance to do well enough playing full time (on four trips to Las Vegas and Los Angeles, she won big and showed great promise). She has zero tilt, the patience of Job, and great demeanor at the table. But she had a tendency towards weak/tight play. Still, I thought she would have a chance to develop at the 5/10 level before moving up.
I'll never forget when we moved out. Jan sent me out so she could unpack in peace. I went to the Bike, put my name on the 10/20 board, then sat in an empty seat in the 5/10. All of a sudden, I saw these peach 50-cent chips being placed in the pot and the collection being taken before the hand began! I asked what was this and was told it was because of a new law. I'll never forget the cold sweat that ran down my spine that moment. I knew that this type of collection would doom the tight player at these limits as I was creaming the 5/10 winning just one pot every two trips around the table. Had this collection been in place and other things been equal my hourly earnings would have been cut in half.
But I was ready for the adjustments needed to play 10/20 and 15/30 but Jan was not. She could barely overcome the collection at 5/10 (few did with the ante) and her game was not tough enough for the time games. Still, she is a lifetime winning player and propped at the Normandie before leaving for health reasons. Her health is now getting better and she plans to return to social work. She still plays occasionally at Hawaiian Gardens.
Regards,
Rick
Thanks for the response.I was wintering in L.A when they added the ante. I had been doing well even though I don't consider myself a strong player but the ante changed all that. In addition to increasing the cost it slowed the game down by 4-5 hands an hour and increased my irratation level. I played 5-6 days then headed out, to the desert and asmall club called Adelanto. Anyway I'm glad my memory is reliable occasionally. Best Wishes to both you and your wife.
Ed,
You are a textbook example of the type of player that doesn't play anymore (or play as much), primarily because of the manner in which the card clubs collect. Of course, the clubs have gone from the "ante" to the dead drop in holdem, but it is almost as bad. You are what I call "the customer not present", and I am convinced that management has no idea how many of you are out there.
BTW, I have argued for a return to a normal collection many times on rgp and here. Steve Badger and I have a little argument going on the Theory Forum that is still pretty fresh (look for "Thinking of Rick Nebiloloolo" that was posted yesterday by Steve). You may want to weigh in. One always could use reinforcements when going up against Badger.
Regards,
Rick
I like the fish posts. I've been involved in both fishing and poker for about 25 years. My friends from the fish world don't play poker and my friends from the poker world are not avid fisherman. They both require thought, you can take them as seriously as you wish and still enjoy, you can enjoy without actively participating by reading, thinking about or tying flies etc. anybody have an idea why there are not more avid fisherman? Plenty of poker players play golf.
Maybe because it's hard to gamble on fishing? Over/under on number of fish caught? How many pokerplayer/golfers do you know who don't have any action on their golf games? I may be the only one, but that's only because I know I'll be taking the worst of it regardless of the number of strokes I'm given.;) -2d
I used to open up this page and the first thing I'd see is "Welcome Back Dan Osman." What a warm fuzzy. It was like the computer was giving me a great big hug. A pathway to the world. Comraderie amongst friends. A passionate embrace in this wild and confusing place we call the internet.
Now I see "Important! Those who misuse this Forum will be barred." Big Brother is watching you and our gestapo will crush the offenders! My warm fuzzy is gone.
Dan
If it stops the bogus postings and keeps the top players on the forum I can live without the "Warm fuzzy"
MJ
Lighten up, Francis.
Does anyone know what happened to him? He seemed like such a wonderful character in Anthony Holden's book.
nt
n
?
x
For more up-to-date info, you can check the Las Vegas Sun at http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/.
What I read is that the jurors appear to be getting close (and close to a conviction). My money says the verdict will come in by the weekend, probably on Friday.
.
weekend. I'll be renting a house with some friends. I'd love to get together with any posters that may be there that weekend. Feel free to email me. Thanks, Tim
I would like to know what Ray Zee eats for breakfast so that I can start eating the same things.
CROW is his meal of choice. So he can FLY fish all day without strain.
ukw
whatever was conveniently killed on the road the nite before as long as its not skunk. its a tough life of eating to follow. i suggest for a longer life try john feeneys diet of organic plants and weedy herbs. and if you have ever seen him you will know having a weight problem wont be an issue. but the anti feeney,(wrong coast paul) eats anything that comes out of a bag and the results are evident. all tough choices to follow but happiness is just a bite away for you.
"...john feeneys diet of organic plants and weedy herbs"
though I must say my, uhm, "ingestion" of weedy herbs fell off noticably after college.
Went to one of Ray Zee's bar-b-Q's. Smelled good, but all the things on the grill had long thin tails. Man, I tell you that guy is a cross between Jack London and Farley Mowat (figure that one out). No wonder he does not have a weight problem.
I heard Mike Laing was arrested at Binion's. Does anyone know what happened? Thanks.
Bruce
Someone on RGP said he got into a shoving match/fight with a guy at the poker table and then took a swing at a security guard.
So questions comes to mind........
If you have already paid your $10K to enter the WSOP Championship (either in cash or by winning a SS and having a paid receipt) do you get your money back if you "can't" play?
That would be a really bad beat if for whatever reason you can't show up and have to forfeit.
Diane
I do not know the answer. However, I do know that in years past, if you won a non-refundable entry and couldn't play, they would hold that money until the following year, and you could play it then (I mean, why wouldn't they? They get the money interest free for a whole year, and that's worth about $500-1,000 to them).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I was told by people who were there that Mike got a refund, but has been 86'd from Binions.
Otherwise, I guess this could be a clever strategy to turn that supersatellite win into cold cash.
I happen to know for sure that the people that backed Mike in the super satelite are still fighting to get the money back from the Horseshoe immediately. "We are not in the business of lending the Horseshoe $10,000 interest free for a year." The Horseshoe was originaly going to save the buy in until next year, but Mike has been 86'd for life. He is fighting that too.
I will be in Ottawa from May 20 to 23rd. I may get some time to play poker on the 22nd (Monday Night). Where do I find a 10-20 or higher HE game? Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks.
x
There are only 8 legit poker tables in this wonderful province of Ontario. They are located at Great Blue Heron casino in Port Perry.
If you keep complaining like this, of course, they'll give you the big Utah client, sending your there constantly, and you'll dream about those 6 tables in Ottowa. ;-)
ok... so I've written here about Vegas & Mexico and other points west of my current home in North Jersey, and despite (or because of?) all your help, I've just about ruled it out. Yesterday, I looked at some apartments in AC. Mostly real ghetto type places.
The one that I'm interested in is The Waterside. The ugly blue monster on the boardwalk past the Taj. I like the location (on boardwalk, steps from ocean, blocks from Taj... Nice views.) although the location kinda sucks (Is there a nice residential neighborhood in AC?)
So, I'm considering the Waterside, but I'm wondering if any AC residents have other suggestions. I don't drive, so easy access to the boardwalk area is a must. I'll be living alone, so a studio would do all right, but I expect that friends & family will want to spend the weekend pretty often, so I'm leaning towards a one, or even two bedroom.
Looking to spend under $700, but for the right two bedroom I'd go higher. (dunno... $850) I'm trying to keep it as low as possible, because I'd hate to be a rent-poor poker player with a day job... rather have a studio and stay "self employed".
Anyway, any suggestions, comments, etc. will be welcomed... don't think I deserve any flames on this one, but one never knows.
Thanks, B$
I grew up in AC and go there on weekends. The big green monster is actually pretty good. I know a lady who lives in it and likes it. It is within walking distance of the Showboat (no poker) and the Taj. Can reach Sands, Bally's and Caesers with a 30 minute walk, no male that stroll on theboardwalk. I actually thought you had to be over 85 to live there (ha, ha). Anyway, there are some decent areas, but not too many within walking distance of the casinos. Cabs are a bargin in AC ($6.00 anywhere - set price) and jitneys (small buses are reasonable and plentyful). There are some really nasty streets to avoid, unless scoring crack is in your plans, but overall it is nice and safe.
There are some apts condos near the Tropicana that sublet and some decent apts past the Trop near the Hilton and above toward Ventnor. A lot depends on what your idea of "nice" is. AC is a rather diverse multicultural town with a lot working class people.
Consider calling a real estate agent. I know there are some apts in the Chelsea and Chelsea Heights area. It's a 20-30 minute walk to the Trop from there. Nothing is too far away in AC. Public transportation is good. If I get some ideas, I'll drop you an e-mail. Try this site http://206.43.192.183/index.html. Is the AC Press web site.
I've checked out the AC press classifieds. That's actually how I found out about The Waterside. There were some ads in Chelsea, but I didn't look into them. I thought it was a nearby town, not a neighborhood in AC. I'll check it out. Thanks.
B$
AC is about 48 city blocks long and anywhere between 5 and 15 city blocks wide. The ocean at Maine avenue is 100 block. Jackson ave is 4200 (or 42 blocks). The Green monster is 200. The Taj is 900. Hilton is about 3200 (maybe 3700) Chelsea encompassas the Hilton, Trop and the end of The Trump Plaza. Here is a map site http://www.pressplus.com/content/neighbors/map.html. Chelsea is OK n most parts. It is clean and safe. A lot of Casino workers live in this area. Populated by working class Hispanics and Asians. Rents are reasonable. Moving South toward Ventnor, large houses and higher rents.
Thanks, ratso... I'll definately look in Chelsea before commiting to the monster.
B$
Went to see that last night. Pretty good movie for a Woody Allen flick. I'm not a huge fan of his, but the it was pretty funny at moments. Other times you could tell they were sort of improving off a semi-non existent script.
There was a poker scene in it. Five card draw, 500-1000 betting. They cut into the scene a few times. It was raised back and forth a few times, neither one willing to fold. Finally, one of them called. Jon Lovitz, one of the players, shows his hand and proudly exclaims "A pair of threes!" The other guy looks sad and says "Oh, good hand, I thought you were bluffing."
Then a woman suggests they play another game. Indian head poker. When they asked her what it was, she said "You put a card behind your head and everyone else can see it, but you can't. We'll play a high/low split...and we can add a few wild cards in."
I thought it was funny.
Dan
His 1995 Honda Civic was destroyed at the airport last night, then he got a ride to the office where he slept on the couch.
(Sam Kinison voice) "Jeff, you got this thing last year, it's called a contract extension. Now you can afford to have a taxi take you all the way home so you can sleep in your own bed, and oh, BTW, YOU MAKE TWO MILLION DOLLARS A F****** YEAR, YOU IDIOT, AT LEAST MOVE UP TO A '98 ACCORD, YOU CHEAP *****........."
I don't know about all of you, but a bunch of my roomate's friends all go pimpin in their civics. That's mad hot! If it's being driven at a college campus, then it's cool. However, for the paltry (compared to his salary of 2 mil) sum of about 100k USD, you could drive around in one of these babies: 
(stolen from porsche.com)
-Joe
Come on now look at Van Gundy...he ain't exactly gonna get the ladies on looks alone! The money will help him out and so will the fame, but the car has gotta be low on his list of how to get the girls. Besides maybe, just maybe, that is WHY HE HAD A CIVIC AT THE AIRPORT!! Did you ever stop to think that he probably has a few cars and that was his car to beat up and leave in dangerous places such as an airport?
I'm putting my house on the market.Five miles west of strip,2 bedroom,good area. If anyone has been looking for a house might be good way to go around a realtor.
Hey I am moving back to the S/W some time in the next 4 months. I may move to Phoenix but Vegas is a possibility.
I always thought a guy could put an ad in Card Player or Poker Digest classified. Those 7% realestate comissions are a killer I have avoided them all my life.
I thought Mrs. Rounder was laying down the law and forcing a move back to less poker friendly environs.
Did you pick off her bluff?
No she is fine - actually better off without me.
I'm just going back to try to put my life back together.
Good luck.
Dave thanks for signing my book at the WSOP during one of your breaks.
Its a masterpiece deserving of every accolade its recieved.
note to readers of this post .If you dont possess this book BUY IT NOW>...
jg
jg, I think you forgot to mention which DS book. "The Theory Of Poker" maybe ?
yes...theory of poker
I thought he was talking about TJ's 'Championship Holdem'.
It suddenly struck me today how so much of the conflict on this forum has one common theme. Sklansky v Cloutier, Malmuth v McEvoy all the way down the undercard to Me v Rounder. Deduction v Intuition. Maths v Street Sense. NERDS v JOCKS. Check out the basic biographies of Cloutier (ex professional footballer) v Malmuth (ex professional statistician) for the clearest example.
The good news is, this is the Internet. This is our domain (joke). We nerds have home field advantage. So bluster all you like, jocks, we don't care. There's no toilet on here to flush our heads down, and you can't reach our pants to dish out a wedgie in response to our carefully argued logic.
Nerds rule !
Andy.
Andy I am a bit of both. I have competed in sports most of my life served in the USMC but I am also a (former University educated accountant) - BUT no one would ever accuse me of being a nerd.
I'm in the UK in 3 weeks maybe we can meet up for a pint. Luton is not that long a trip up the M1 little over an hour if I recall correctly. I'm up for traveling up there for a tournament if they hold them.
Let me know.
For sure. Let me know closer to the time.
Andy.
ok you got your lick...this place seems to always bring a refreshing moment of laughter..
jg
With my book out, I just wanted to give a public thanks to John Cole, who was kind enough to provide some expert feedback on my writing in one of the longer (2 part) essays. His friend (and ours) Rick Nebiolo put me in touch with John, who teaches writing at the college level. I was delighted that he was willing to look at the section, "How I Learned Poker" and provide writing suggestions. He went over it in detail and, as a result, I gained some valuable insight into the strengths and weaknesses of my writing. I incorporated almost all his ideas.
Had I been more organized, John's name would have shown up in the acknowledgements rather than in this little post. As it is, I'll just have to settle for the permanent (one hopes) Two Plus Two archives. Thanks John!
John,
My pleasure.
Was there a deal made at the final table, of the main event, between T.J and Ferguson?
-Ted
Post deleted at author's request.
this is a joke right .it must be.
jg
Quite frequently the players agree to split up most of the money and then just play for the title. Why do suspect a joke?
D.
class guys dont split ..they win straight up when such a pristegious title is on the line.
has something to do with that rare quailty that few possess .
DIGNITY
jg
It isn't like 2nd place was chump change, it was what 1st place used to get. Why worry about spliting?
You may think this, but I would bet that in the vast majority of tournaments, and this includes the big ones, a deal is made at the final table. Whether this was the case this year at the final championship at the WSOP I don't know, but I do know for a certainty that other years there has been a deal. However, this is not always the case.
mason your absolutely right but something says these guys are the exception..
jg
Post deleted at author's request.
I'm thinking about retireing next year and maybe relocating. The availability of poker is of course a priority. The Vegas games sound too tough & California is too expensive. I would like to live close to the Casino's & would buy a house. So, what can you tell me about the poker rooms? My best game is 7CS, 10-20 but am shooting for 15-30, 20-40. I also play 10-20 HE. Where is the best place too live? Close to poker, houses in the 90,000 100,000 range. I am addressing this to Rounder because he once said he lived 15 minutes from 3 poker rooms, but I would like to hear from anyone who lives & plays there. Thanks
Jim Kelley
Jim,
I'm in Tempe about a mile from the University. I live 5 min from the soon to be opened New Casino Arizona spreading everything from 1-3 stud to the highest limits there is always a 20-40 going. Fort Mcdowell is about 18 miles up bee line and Gila River is 20 miles in the other direction. These spreadall the games too higher limits are not as prevelent at Casino Arizona but they do spread them - you can go to any of them at any time of day and find most any game you are looking for. All 3 have over 40 tables.
I am looking at some condos in Scottsdale you can find some really super situations in good locations for under 100 grand. It is not unusual to find a nice one for $60K to $70K and $200 service fee which includes utilities.
Right now gas is running $1.38 a gal.
Hope this answered your questions.
Just to clarify the housing thing, you could find a condo for 100k in Scottsdale(near the card action), but you won't find much in actual houses at that amount which I believe is the word you used. The highest r.e. prices for what you get are in Scottsdale(possibly because of access to gambling, but there may be reasons predating that). The good thing about the valley overall is that you do get good housing value for your dollar. It's just that close to the casino and good deal are kinda negatively correlated.
JG - who will probably never move given the impossibility of buying as a nice a house elsewhere
Jim guess I with kids gone and old bones not willing to do any house owners type of work think condo as a good alternative.
See you at the Fort in a couple of hours.
As far as I know, the best places to be for the largest selection of medium to high limit stud games are AC and Connecticut. Stud is the main game at Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun, with games up to 40-80 going pretty much daily, and games up as high as 200-400 on weekends. If you want to play HE, the highest regular game is 20-40 at MS, 10-20 at FW. I don't know any details about AC, but I've heard stud is bigger than HE there also.
Housing in CT is pretty cheap, and you can definitely get a small 2-bedroom house for under 100K, particularly in the woodsier areas away from the ocean. I have no idea what housing costs near AC, but I hear it's not a great area to live in anyway.
You might also look into Mississippi, as I'm sure that they must have housing in the price range you're considering, but I have no idea what limits of stud are commonly available there.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
As for the limits in Tunica, I couldn't say, but the Biloxi Grand spreads 10-20, 15-30, and 20-40 stud, as well as similar hold 'em and omaha games. The only big game is a 200-400 Omaha at the Gulfport Grand. They also spread a 10-25 pot limit omaha game.
Bill
Thanks Fossilman, but I live in CT now (Hartford) and play at FW & MS. I'm looking to leave the northeast and head for the sun. My biggest poker concern is that 7CS doesn't seem to be as popular elsewhere as it is hear. I guess I'll just have to fly out there and see for myself. Thank you for responding. Jim
I missed the emphasis on stud the first time I read your post. Yes, there is ALWAYS a 15/30 stud game at Casino Arizona, and 30/60 is frequent. You'll probably want to play higher still given the housing equity differential you'll score when you move here. Those games go down occasionally, too.
JG
Like Jim said, near the casino and cheap housing are negatively correlated. Scottsdale has always had a premium to live there (even before the casinos, Jim). Tempe also commands a smaller premium.
If you go out just a little further, into Mesa, Chandler, or Gilbert, there are nice developments where you can get a new house for 100K. I live in Gilbert, and I am about 20 minutes from where the new Casino Arizona will be, 25 minutes from Gila River and 50 minutes from Ft. McDowell.
PS - Casino Arizona is going no-smoking on June 1. I personally consider that a plus.
Dick
Dick I think they all are no smoking on 6/1.
this winter look for me sneaking in if they go nonsmoking.
Email me before you come. I'd like the pleasure of playing against you.
JG
Fort McDowell is trying an experiment until Sep.
They are charging only .50 a 1/2 hour to play the 10-20 and above. Mike (card room manager) said he thinks they will make this a standard after Sep.
So far it has worked the games at casino Arizona are becomming less populated.
I like this type of competition it is good for the players and the game.
What games are they actually spreading regularly there? I've never been there before, but I'm really getting sick of all the shit that Casino Arizona is trying to pull lately, and would be curious to find somewhere decent to play.
Geo.
Mike Birnes is spreading 10-20 & 20-40 on a regular basis. Guess he is trying to get business away from CA and GR with the buck an hour rate.
Playing tonight at GR NL HE. -I'll see you there if you are - It'll be my last time there since I'm leaving town by next Tues.
Mike
Ah, it looks from your post on the tournament forum like you really do eat the healthful (I used that word once on a college english paper and the prof [a teaching assistant actually] claimed there was no such word. Jeez.) stuff the way I do, Ray. scott is going to be dissapointed. (It is not cool. There's an existential argument against it too. I'll let scott elaborate if his job allows.)
Anyway, the way I look at it is this. There in Montana, and here in SoCal we can be a little picky about diet choices (They probably don't get a lot of organic stuff there, but I think that's starting to change everywhere.) But in Vegas, it's tough for David -- despite his having made a splash recommending a vegetarian restaurant on rgp -- to find the same kind of life-extending, pesticide-free, earth-preserving, and otherwise goofy stuff that we health conscious types concern ourselves with. That's because he's wandering around those big casinos, betting on the ponies, counting his bills, and taking phone calls all day long. (Did I get all those right?) And all they serve is restaurant stuff. (Well, I do hear the Bellagio has some fine restaurants, but most of the people I know aren't allowed in them due to their "informal" attire. So I don't know what they serve.) So I guess we can allow David the occasional cupcake, though twinkies are another matter.
god ......here we go again ....button down the hatches on this one...
load your bullets and draw to the nuts.....
again........
dave..PLEASE... have no comment
lmao
jg
Bro,
I line my nasal passages with DCM from my daily work schedule and that helps form glorious new molecules from the BAG food particles that attach to my fatty tissues in the liver. That gives Zee all his material (rather sparse don't you think) for his jokes concerning my girth of laughter.
Right of Left Paul
I figured that was your strategy, bro. And I see that the Zeeness is watching, waiting to pick his spot before entering this dangerous thread. jg was right, this is keg of dynamite, PIA or not.
one thing for sure you dont see no fat old people nope.
we should all be aware wrong coast feeney is a spokes person for the junk food industry and a clothes model for the extralarge pants company.
This is for the PIA pain in the ass so called healthy eaters.
You guys are fooling your self - if you think our low red meat diets and salads are gonna give you one more day of life you are really fooling yourselves.
Man was made to eat meat and plenty of it.
My grand mother ate things hat would make a billy goat puke. She was 94 when she died. Hell Dave Letterman who is as health conscious as anyone had the triple bypass recently. I'm Daves age and 40 lbs over weight I don't exercise or give a shit what I eat yet my CV system is in top shape. Go figure.
It is all a bunch of crap - go ahead eat your twinkie Dave it ain't gonna add or subract one day from your life.
I think its about time rounder you and I had our first disagreement.
I`m 52 years old and live a very healthy lifestyle.
I guarantee you that very few men my age or in thier forties can even remotely come close to me in youthful appearance and health.
my own doctor is completely amazed.
I have three other brothers and one sister and they look thier age and beyond so its not all genetics even though my parents were quite youthful in appearance.
let me mention also that being how I am makes it difficult for me to fit in
its not how long you live its the quality of life you live.in body, mind ,spirit...
jg
Hey we don't disagree to much - I'm 54 and people don't think I am a day over 40 - just carry a bit to much weight.
I like to stir things up a bit sometimes and the PIA post was one of those mischevious juvinal poste I come up with at times. I do think a lot of folks are fooling them selves about diet - but exercise is important if it is what makes you happy.
I dont like exercise but I do it often simply cause its benefits outway it being a pain in the ass.
jg
"My grandmother ate things that would make a billy goat puke. She was 94 when she died."
I see, so because my neighbor's grandfather smoked from the age of 13 to the day he died at the age of 85(from a non-smoke related illness), smoking must not have the ability to cause cancer. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
-Anecdotal
citing exceptions to the rule only perpetuates a foolish viewpoint. it my be more fun to eat badly or it may be an addiction but it certainly shortens ones life. we all eat garbage to some extent, but its that extent that matters.
On the strategy forum Bob Ciaffone said the following which I just couldn't let pass by:
"The WSOP is over, T.J. Cloutier finished second again, and Slim's throat is still intact. (Slim is widely misquoted as saying he would slit his throat if a woman won it, but he was only talking about one particular woman who was both a weak player and a notorious stiff.)"
Bob, what did you mean by the term "stiff?"
Zee in "DRAG"
gonzalez
A stiff is an Al Gore like individual (and I actually like him, but I gotta call it like I see it)
Maybe Bob will answer, but we Northeast Italins apply the term "stiff" to a nickel-and dime type of person. They type of guy who is always the last to put in his ante, hoping someone else pays twice. The guy who always calls his long-lost friend to bunk-up when he is in town so that he doesn't have to pay for a hotel room. The guy who is always going to buy "the next round", or always buys the 2nd out three rounds. Or always orders the cheap stuff when he is paying, but gets top shelf when someone else is paying. You get the picture. Actually, this describes a lot pf poker players I know.
I thought a stiff was someone who is notorious for stiffing the dealers(never tips).
John, Bob was nice enough to tell me this....."A stiff is a person who does not pay her debts".
Hope that helps.
Howard
Can anyone give me a rundown on weekly or daily small (<$50) buy-in HE or NL tourneys in Las Vegas? I'm thinking of visiting a cousin there for 2-3 days in the middle (Weds, Thurs plus either Tues or Fri.) of the 3rd week of June. Thanks in advance. Kate
kate go to cardplayer magazine www.cardplayer.com.Go to tournaments then click on nevada at the bottom of page.It will give all the info you wish.
there are some low buy-ins.I`m told the Orleans has the best small tournies.
jg
You may also want to try the Luxor. There's a daily Holdem tourney there which starts at noon. Sign in is at 0900. It's a $25 buy-in freeze out which lasts about 1.5 hours.
J.
I am going to shamelessly plug the tournaments were I am a supervisor. At the Stratosphere Tower we have four weekly tournaments. On sundays we have a no limit hold'em at 8:30 with a $35 buy-in and no rebuys. This tournamnet usually sells out by 7 or 7:30. On Tues we have a limit hold'em tournamnet at 8:30. This tournamnet generlly gets between 20 and 30 players. On Thur we have a no limit stud tournamnet at 8:30 with a $35 buy in and one optional $20 re buy. This tournament usually draws between 16 and 24 players. On Sat we have a limit 7 stud tournament at 8:30 this tournament generally draws between 24 and 32 players.
All out tournaments have half hour levels and large stacks of chips. ($600 starting at 15-30 in the limit events; I forget what the staring levels are in the no limit event but if anyone needs the info they can email me and I will get it to you) In the stud events we never play more than 8 to a table (most low buy in stud tounrments in Vegas play 9 to a table).
On Sun and Wed evening we spread no limit hold'em with $1 and $2 blinds ($50 buy in). On thur evenings we spread pot limit stud with a 50 cents ante and a dollar bring in. If anyone would like some more info they can email me or call the poker room at (702)383-5317
Randy Refeld
The Orleans has two tournaments a day. Monday to Thursday are $20 buy-ins with $10 rebuys and a $10 add-on. Friday evening is the $60 No-Limit with one $40 rebuy. You can get to the Orleans from the Strip by catching the free shuttle bus from the Barbary Coast.
Someone recently told me that Doyle Brunson has been banned from the Horseshoe. Anybody know why? Bad behavior? Cheating?
I read somewhere that Doyle won't go there any more out of respect for Jack or something like that.
I am sure it is not behavior related.
I think it has something to do with the BROWN CHIP CONTROVERSY, which has been flogged to death on RGP.
I think it is Doyle who is boycotting the shoe, along with some others.
We should be careful about throwing around suggestions of cheating.
I read that Becky Binions husband cannot stand either him or Chip Reese, so they have both been banned.
Regards,
Richard
FWIW Both Doyle and Chip's signatures were near the top of the petition that was addressed specifically to Becky Binion regarding banning smoking at the WSOP that was being circulated.
Don't know why either of them would sign it if they had no intention of playing there again, but who can say.
DB did say in Card Player that he did not play the WSOP in '99 out of respect for Jack Binion.
I was told by Tod Brunson that they are not barred.
He was banned for going to the buffet and cleaning it out every time he was there. Never left any food for anyone else. I hear he has TB-two bellies....
if you had one hour to spend with a player who would you choose and why.
just wanting to get an idea on the makeup and personalities in this forum..
jg
Cyndi Violette
Damn Tovar, you took my answer. I guess I'd say Spring Cheong but she's already a friend and I hang out with her a bunch already. Hmmm...maybe Dewey Weum so I can get a golf lesson or Ray Zee if he'll let me fish on his property.
And I'm not gay. I assume it is to discuss poker.
Having said that - any poker player who won't bore me to death with his/her bad beat stories and doesn't mind sharing their strategy.
I must admit after reading Kathy Leiberts interview I found her to be quite interesting.
Actually, didn't yasmin Bleeth play a major in Atlantic City a few years back? Really, though, CV would be interesting to talk to since she is so out of the mold of an east coast pro. You don't hear of many women playing at her level who also come from AC. Mostly LV and LA
Who did I miss something.
Cindi Violette
I second that emotion. Oh, baby.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'd choose a guy who loves to play heads-up and thinks any two cards can win until the river proves him wrong. Preferably at the 100-200 level.
As for a professional player, I'd go with Johnny Chan because he has such a cool name.
Dan
yep this place definitely has some real live varied characters
....lmao....
jg
Phil Hellmuth.. I would just like to see if I could put him on tilt in less than 30 min.
LOL
MJ
you guys arent playing fair...
fargin sunanabitchum cork suckers
....from the movie ,"johnny dangerously"
jg
would be a good experience, because anything else you would do for the rest of your life would be better.
nt
No Text.
(not even a picture)
wasn't sure if this belongs here or HE, but it isn't about strategy, so here it is
What do you say when someone hits a one outer on you and then gets in your face about it?
I had 88, maniac woman (MW) raised UTG (raised with crap, slowplayed big hands consistantly. Long story short (not about strategy, remember...suffice it to say that I was in the lead the whole way, read it correctly and got sucked out on), MW hit a seven on the river to make a set and bet my 88 (a friend in the same game later told me he had mucked 87o before the flop, so she hit a one outer). Of course she talked smack about it afterwards, and "nice hand, Maam" seemed a little worthless and empty at the time. any witty suggestions?
Nice 21 it will probably more than that in years before u hit another one!!! NICE HAND MAAAMMM!!!
sotm
Wow..are you and artist? Because you sure can draw.
Best of it !!
MJ
While I am guilty of traversing this suggestion myself on a few occasions, you should either say something polite, or nothing at all. Anything else will either be giving a lesson, or needling a weak player, neither of which is likely to increase your future EV.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Spoken like a true lawyer!!!! Very PC!! No wonder Z wants to back you!!!!
ukw
what i really want is free legal advice as here in upper crust montana we hung all the lawyers awhile back and none will come and replace them.
I probably agree with you, except I can't shake the feeling that I would increase my EV by telling her what I think- she would play even worse hands (if possible). She isn't some newbie who doesn't know better. She's played for a while and thinks very highly of herself and very little of others. I wouldn't spend so much time on this except she took the longest of draws (can't get much longer than one out) and got there, then proceeded to give me the needle while I responded with a very polite "nice hand". Yes, I love having her in the game, but, yes, I think I could tell her off without making her play better. Will I, no, probably not, but, despite her willingness to give away money, she makes being in the game so unbearable sometimes, that I consider passing the game just so I do not have to sit with her for a couple of hours. Oh well, this is all talk and the lure of her checks is too hard to resist, so i will most likely be found in whatever game she's in.
Well, if she makes the game so unbearable that you'd rather play without her (despite her monetary contributions to the game), then that's a different story. Let her have it with both barrels, and don't even try to be socially acceptable about it, AS LONG AS she starts it. That is, respond to her in kind, and make sure she is the one who elevates it, not you, but don't back down an inch. In fact, tell her how unpleasant she is, if you like, and how distasteful it is to play with her.
However, don't be surprised if you make some enemies who among those who wanted her (and her money) to stick around.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Hmmm...I wonder if your suckouts can pick up a bowling ball too?
I suppose you'd like a reward. Too bad I just ran out of fish pellets.
Fish heads, fish heads, rolly polly fish heads...(hum to yourself if you like)
Would you taunt a little louder, please? With all these chips still in front of me, it's hard for any sound to get through.
(tossing her a quarter) Wow, you were worth it. That was the greatest suck I've had in years.
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn (an oldie, but a goodie).
and my personal favorite:
GO !$#* YOURSELF YOU $^!*TY PIECE OF %#@!ING &$!( &%&#, YOUR MOTHER WAS A %@#*ING *$@# AND YOUR FATHER $@%*ED YOU UP THE #$$.
then go back to playing as if nothing ever happened.
Dan
Nothing to say. Just look at it as a loan you willl collect with interest. Her hitting the one outter was not in her mind a one outter since she didn'know about it and should be considered a 2 outter.
After I won a nice pot with a small set that I caught on the turn, a friend looked at me and said, "I see why you stayed with those 4's, after all you were open on both ends."
-
Well I usually ignore them. Sometimes I say "I'm sorry, I am having trouble hearing you; were you saying you would like to play heads-up?" Of course I only say this to someone that I actually would like to play heads-up.
Randy Refeld
Unfortunately when someone is needling you afterwards, pre-considered remarks don't work so well. I'm afraid you need to think of something witty on the spur of the moment and deliver it with style and timing. Even more unfortunately, thinking of something witty when you're driving home is no good.
Seriously, when you've lost the pot, it's best to keep it buttoned. When you're raking them in a quiet "Sorry, can you just let me stack all these chips, then you can tell me what I did wrong" often does the trick.
Andy.
one of the main reasons i play poker is that i dont have to take any crap from anybody. dont run a live one off but there is absolutely no reason to take any crap from anybody that starts it. if they quit so what another two will take their place. i think it hurts too much to bite your tongue. if the other players want you to be a namby pamby to cater to a creep thats their tough luck. this only aplies is she started it and you didnt make some smart remark first when you lost.
"What do you say when someone hits a one outer on you and then gets in your face about it? "
1) Your Momma!
2) Ray Zee's from Montana!
3) Nice ass!
4) I post on 2+2 bitch! So there!
5) Yo MOMMA!
6) Your Place or Mine!
7) Dog Doody!
8) That's the last time I'll chase you, you sweet thing you!
9) Does the word Hummer mean anything to you!
10) Your Momma'a Momma! (that's in case she says Your momma back at you)
Hope these help. If you need more just ask. Have a nice day!
Vince
oh most excellent post ...lmao
jg
Just tell her 'Yes, ma'am, you're a helluva player' with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Then play solid poker against her. Taking her chips is the best way to vent.
David
I played with a real character at Turning Stone Casino(upstate NY) for about two weeks, 15-30,20-40 and 30-60. He calls himself Tony Poop-Poop. He says he plays all over the country including the 80-160 at the Belligio. Is this guy on the up and up?
I think he's full of his name
I also play at Turning Stone. The Pooper left TS and said he was on his way to LV/80-160. But was last seen above the boarder at a place called Port Perry. This is the rumor.
The Pooper!
Yeah, he can put a table on tilt all right. I like the guy, and he can play very well when he wants too, he does seem to overestimate his act though....
zooey
Unusual situation came up last night in a 3-6HE game, and I would like to ask the forum if the ruling at the table was handled correctly.
I was not personally involved in the hand, but I was watching what was going on. Usual 5 or 6 pre-flop, and hand was raised by player on my left. Flop came down 9c-3d-3h. Checked to raiser, who bets, SB, BB and player to my right all call. The RHO and LHO were both off-duty dealers from one of the other casinos in town, and up to this point, they had been raising it up pretty steady, popping a few beverages, and generally having a good time. Game was pretty loose.
Turn card is 2d. All check to raiser, who bets again. All 3 players call, or so I thought. In fact, RHO had not yet put in the $6 to see the river, but the dealer burns and turns the 5d. I can see the SB picking up chips getting ready to bet, when my LHO bets out of turn. The SB check-raises, BB folds, and now the other player looks very distraught, tables pocket 5's, and says, "My hand is dead. I fold."
My first reaction of course was that this was the Big Laydown of all time! What did he think the SB had: pocket 9's? The straight flush? I didn't realize that he hadn't called the turn bet, and now when there is a bet and a check-raise on the river, the player said that as there was substantial action on the river, his hand was dead and he could not either call, or ask for the river card to be re-shuffled.
As it turned out, the SB had 5-3o, so there would have been a lot of action on the river. I'm not sure if the dealer had realized that this player had not called; obviously he didn't, I guess. The player could have quietly re-raised the SB, and I suppose no one would have been any the wiser, so it was certainly a very ethical thing to do to lay down his hand.
My questions: Does this player have any recourse after the bet and check-raise? At what point does he have to notify the dealer that he hadn't called the turn? The floorperson said that once there was a bet and a raise, his hand was indeed dead, and had to be mucked.
just curious why 2+2 doesnt establish a chat line.making it so we can interact in real time.Mind you now some of our intellects would have to cut back on thier long disertations.
I think its a definitely step in the right direction for some lively debates etc..
jg
nice thought - some of these guys have to understand that "brevity is the sole of wit" - hey why don't we just start one on mIrc. It would be easy to set up a chat room.
Personally, I like the longer, more detailed posts. I learn a lot from Jim Brier's lengthy posts. Much better than "You should have folded pre-flop."
"brevity is the sole of wit"
Excuse me but isn't "sole" a little out of place here? Or are we to believe that Brevity, what ever that is, is the bottom of the shoe of wit, whoever he may be? For a while I hung around in a bar in Amsterdam called Johann De Wit. Maybe Mike is talking about his shoes. What do you think?
vince.
I hope that Brev enough to be witty.
If you can't say it simpley you don't really know the subject matter another of my "old" sayings I have a bunch of them. One of my favs is "if you don't blow your own horn someone will use it as a spitoon."
Not you Vinny or Jim B. I happen to read both you (Vinny mostly to see if he had his meds that day :-) )I respect both of you - it is just a lot of posters go on and on just to hear them selves "talk" seems like their getting paid by the word.
Mike,
Please , no need to explain to me. Mine was meant in Jset. Like most of the time.
Vince
well guys my thought is that this forum is to invaluable to change in any way but an addition of a real time chat line would be absolutely great..
God I`d be lost without those long lap top pye-r-squared left brain twilite zone algebraic decimal dazzling disertations we encounter from time to time here in the forum.
I know some places where your allowed x amount of words only.Then if we wish to go in depth put ,...see forum thoery etc...
best of decisions
jg
Memorial Day weekend looms big, and AC will be pretty busy (and lucrative). So, for all those who are thinking about going down there, here are a couple of helpful hints. I am assuming you are looking to play at the Trop or Taj, although the stuff holds for Bally’s too.
1. Most people will leave early on Friday. Worst traffic is usually between 2 and 6. Between 6 and 9 is a good time. Traffic gets bad after 9.
2. From Phila take the AC Expressway. Pay attention to the EZ pass toll lanes. Don’t get in them by mistake. In the past, it was better to get off at Exit 2 (Chelsea) and go over the bridge and make the first left at the Sunoco Station (Winchester -Arctic Ave). The end (Exit 1) was recently renovated and may now be OK.
3. From NY via the Garden State Parkway. Traffic will be bad in spots. Be careful from the Tuckerton Exit to the AC Expressway , a stretch of about 10-15 miles. It is the World’s busiest Speed Trap (and you thought Georgia was bad). It is the #1 cash “crop” for New Gretna in the summer months.
4. If you do not have a room reserved, you will have trouble finding a decent place. You may end having to stay in the suburbs (ha, ha) like Pleasantville or West AC which is 5 miles outside of the metropolis.
5. Casinos will be rockin’. Parking will be OK though. Taj has a big lot; almost too big. The Showboat has a great multilevel and flat lot. You can use that one too for the Taj since the 2 casinos connect. The Trop’s lot sucks. Use the street level lot instead of the multilevel lots. The Hilton also has street level parking about 4 blocks south. All parking at Casinos is between $2 and $5 (Sands). Don’t bother with the ripoff parking lots run by the hustlers @ $15 a day. Those lots only get you once. Street parking is OK after 10:00 pm. No meter charges after 10:00.The restaurants will be packed.
6. I do not recommend the nudie bars in AC on Pacific Ave. They are lame and costly. (Can you say Skankville?)
7. Food! Lots of very good restaurants, reasonably priced. Casino high ends ones are excellent but will be booked. Low end ones will be crowded. If you want to do the buffets, bring a book; lines are long. Showboat has a 2 for 1 and is not bad and very efficiently run. Non casino: Good places--see ( http://www.pressplus.com/) Good Cheap places: White House Sub Shop near the Trump Plaza (3 blocks West); Spanky’s (same food as White House only better and cheaper and no waiting- limited seating mostly take-out--located off Albany Ave and Porter Ave);Tony’s Baltimore Grille -Italian food, pizza, shrimp etc. (1 block from Trop); McGettians Saloon across from the Baseball Stadium on Albany Ave; The Wonder Bar right on Albany Ave at the bridge. Go to a WaWa or 7-11 and get a copy of The Whoot newspaper and by all means buy a copy of the AC Press and check out the specials in the coupon section. Best place to but beer/wine/liquor is off Albany Ave again near the baseball stadium at the Ventnor Plaza right along the Bay where the Shop Rite is (Westend Avenue). Good prices and excellent selection. Trop has its own liquor store.
Send questions--I will answer them.
hey guys why is it everytime i want to go to rgp all I get is an e-mail form.
I was under the assumption that it was similiar to this forum..
any guidance appreciated...
jg
http://www.remarq.com
try this
paul
http://www.remarq.com/list/pkrgmbl?q=REC%2EGAMBLING%2EPOKER&si=board
thanks guys ..I got there ok but when i went to sign up it refused me cause i dont have a cookie in my browser.
ok so i got a bag of oatmeal cookies in my cupboard... whats the procedure for ramming the fargin thing into my browser.
these fargin sunamabitchen corksuckin pcs.
jg
If you need help with cookies shoot me an email.
Post deleted at author's request.
yes i have outlook express. so your saying rather then load the cookie just post through here when i click on from here.
jg
Post deleted at author's request.
A good action flick I do recommend it to the testosterone crowd. Non stop action and a pretty cool babe too.
I still think I could kick Tom's butt. :-)
i give it 3 1/2 aces.
Not bad, but I didn't go into it expecting Casablanca. I was there for the action and that's what I got. Overall, I'd say that it was an AJ suited.
Nice rating system, 2d. LOL! I wonder what someone not from the poker world would say if one of us gave them reviews of movies based on this.
Eyes Wide Shut - 93o. Mission Impossible I - 72s. Etc. Etc.
.
My 5 ace system - I gave it 31/2 A's.
In the 2 card system AJs or AKo is ok by me.
I'd give it two jacks. It's a movie I came in with high expectations, and left feeling like I had been sucked out on.
It wasn't all bad, but I just couldn't buy that whole love story premise. I mean, he spent the entire first movie not being able to trust anyone and suddenly he falls head over heals in love with a woman he's known for less than 24 hours. Suddenly he'll do whatever it takes not to lose her...and we're supposed to find compassion in this? Rather than go along with it, I kept waiting for the other shoe to drop.
And did they pick that Australian spy just so they could shack up for free at his sheep farm? What exactly was his specialty?
John Woo, as usual, kicks ass in the action department. This alone probably made up for the lackluster lines spouted in this movie. Like porn movies and Jackie Chan, we're not exactly watching it for plot.
Dan
I thought it was the worst movie of the year, but what do I know, I liked "Small Time Crooks".
I agree. I saw this dud last night knowing that it was another John "Face/Off" Woo flick and it sucked as much as expected. I don't know of any other director that could mangle MI this badly. There was hardly a scene, even non-action, that didn't have his patented slomo twisting camera shots which do nothing but annoy and distract the viewer. Once again, Woo proves that the hero can't be killed despite how many bullets are fired or how close of range. When Cruise escapes the underground bunker with the serum and the guards are shooting at him (missing of course) he does some flips and shoots them (hitting of course) in mid air. Then when the car gets blown up by the rocket launcher, the wooden bridge is unscathed. To top it off, Cruise is speeding on the cycle at 60 mph towards the car. Good thing it blew it off the bridge instead of just a normal blow up. Or how about when Cruise skids on his front tire for 20 ft and manages to twist the motorcycle one handed and shoot the car in the gas tank to blow it up. Or how about when the two street bikes, with street tires, end up in the sand and they suddenly have dirt tires. Or how about when the hero and villain face off on the cycles and speed towards each other at 30+ mph each, jumping off the cycles to collide with each other. Hmmm, when someone hits another person at 60+ mph they usually die or at least break tons of bones and need urgent medical care. Instead, they both get up and beat the crap out of each other.
Woo may make good eastern martial arts films with lots of flying through the air unrealistic moves, but he should stick to that genre. His style doesn't belong in the western movie making industry.
MI isn't about action and fighting, its about covert operations, high tech gadgets, and intrigue. Didn't see any of that really (other than the infiltration scene). The relationship between cruise and the girl was unrealistic. The scene where they kidnap the CEO and make him think he's got the virus confused me. The climbing scene was totally unrealistic (no one free solos a route that they have to jump 10 feet to a lower ledge like that).
To sum up, this was the biggest botch job I've seen in a long time.
Robin,I'm glad you reminded me of the climbing scene.That set the tone for the whole movie,DUMB.I like action flics as much as the next person,but this movie was pretty bad.IMHO.
Check out Jackie Chan's new flick. All the action, with a sense of humor and real art to the stunts.
zooey
Agreed. This movie is leaps and bounds better than MI:2. Though it takes a bit to get started, it's really funny and the action seens are quality. Also, there are lots of randoms who are just cool. And the cowboy co-star reminded me of someone from high school who was more of a talker than a do-er, but funny nonetheless. Go see this one. It's worth it for "No, no, you said wet shirt no break, not pee shirt bend bars." That was great.
-Joe
so far i cant give over two trout snouts to anything with jackie chan.
.
Last night's Law and Order had a neat Hitchcock allusion: a murder victim has on a shirt with the monogram ROT. Of course, North By Northwest comes to mind for Hitchcock fans. ROT = Roger O Thornhill; the O stands for nothing. The original owner of the monogrammed shirt in the Law and Order episode is named Roger Thorn.
John
Just a quick tip for those who are not terribly sophisticated in the use of these computing machines. Since the archives here are now structured in a way that doesn't have a search feature for the older stuff, there is one simple thing you can do to speed up finding any old thread you may be looking for. In Netscape just use the "find in frame" function (under "edit") to search for key words from the thread, including posters' names. So if you've found the month you believe the thread is in, and you know it was about the "bunching factor", just use that to search for "bunching", or if you know Izmet was involved in the thread, then search for his name. I don't know what it's called but assume there's an analogous feature in Internet Explorer and other browsers. Okay, so everyone knew that already...
When and if this website gets an overhaul the archives would be a great place to focus on.
Thanks for the tip.
Suggestions would be appreciated. Keeping the archives in the same format as the current forums is NOT an option...they take up too many resources.
Chuck
As for most gambling websites, the archiving system is on automatic pilot. Result is, very few people (check your hit scores) bother with the Archives and most of the accumulated wisdom (hold the jokes, pls!) is lost.
How would you go about archiving the posts for your personal use? Do the same for the website. When you want to remember where to look for everything important in your library, you create a small notebook. Same thing with 2+2.
Guidelines: The first Archives screen lists 3 or 4 groupings of themes. Click what interests you and you're taken to a Board where titles are listed one after the other, showing also date and author of first post. These titles represent threads or posts. Each title is NOT necessarily the title of the gfirst post in a thead but describes instead the running theme of the thread (see example below). Scroll down the page and click on what interests you. You're then taken to your destination, which is the thread or post you want to read. Examples:
--Adjust to playing with a Bug (Joker) Posted by: B.D. (joker802@yahoo.com) Posted on: Saturday, 13 November 1999, at 6:45 p.m.
--Does 1-4-8-8 hold'em with 1-2 blind require the same bankroll as 4-8 hold'em with a 2-4 blind? Posted by: michael joseph Posted on: Tuesday, 30 November 1999, at 2:17 p.m. etc
--The whole thing needs active webmastering, though, not just sitting back and archiving chro-nolo-gi-cally. It takes work...
It's unfortunate that it would take up too much resources to maintain the format of the current messages. That would probably be the ideal solution.
I will confess that I know very little about website construction or maintenance. However, one concrete suggestion that I have is that the search feature should work across all forums. This might be even more useful for theme. And for a theme search it would be of benefit to have the option for appearance in title only, or in the body of the message, or both.
I like Cyrus's ideas too.
I don't know what kind of resources you have to put into this website but I feel that the archives are very unwieldy as is. My guess is that they are not used very often unless someone already has a very good idea of where the information is.
Deja.com's Power Search would be a great model to work from. Also having the option to control the number of hits returned on one screen would be great. Some posters e.g. Sklansky, Zee, Raymer, Feeney, have made many many posts. To have to go through page after page of returns of 25 hits would be tedious. Much quicker to scroll through a screen of 300-500 links to past messages.
Thanks for listening.
Chuck,
What has been written here is precious to a lot of us. I'm not sure what you mean be not being able to keep things as they are. I hope we are not in danger of losing any of the older archives.
I'm only semi-literate in terms of web hosting problems and HTML manipulation. By taking up too many resources, I assume you mean that you cannot have the older archives formatted as active links to specific threads or posts. Right now only the recent archives are set up that way (as well as the active forums).
IMHO, the older archives are fine as they are. Is there a problem with resources regarding keeping the monthly archives in digest format? Are we in danger of losing them?
Regards,
Rick
What if, starting now, we were able to categorize our own posts?
If we wanted to start a thread, we would decide which subject matter it would apply to and label it so that, when it does go in the archives, it becomes very easy to categorize.
Example:
Under poker, there's texas hold'em. By far the most popular forum on 2+2. Before someone started up a thread, they could choose between 5, 10, 200, etc. different labels to categorize it. "Starting hand requirements." "Playing against agressive opponents." "Pot odds." "playing against loose opponents." "HFAP questions." You get the point.
This would have no bearing on where it was placed within the forum, merely how it would be categorized when it hit the archives. Then, people could look up entire threads dealing with the subject matter they desired.
It would sort of be like a low powered search engine. You wouldn't need to keep a new web page for every post, or even for every thread. But once per category oughta work.
Dan
I wear prescription glasses, and have never owned sunglasses. I would like to try a pair so I can observe people's reactions in secret, but they won't be cheap. The casino I play at is not very well lighted(The Normandie), and was wondering what level of tint would be sufficiant to shade my eyes from others, but still be able to see things like quickly flashed cards,[and my own cards!].
At places like The Commerce Casino, where it is extremely well lit, I assume it would be ok to get a level 4 or 5 tint(I was told those were the darkest levels,[in broken english]). But in a not so well lit casino I'm not too sure, and I won't be able to simply return them like you can non-prescription sunglasses.
Thanks for any help, Ben
P.S. The glasses I would like are a wrap-around style, and I haven't seen any clip-on shades in that shape. Plus I haven't seen clip-ons with a variety of different tints to choose from at my local drug-stores.
Ben - experiement with clip ons they are cheap and get the job done.
i think you can get them on the web at dorksareus.com
Dick-in-Phoenix does not come by all his knowledge by himself. I met him for the first time yesterday in the Gamblers World bookstore. He was buying a book on poker!!! I enjoyed meeting and talking with him. Maybe I'll see him at the tables one day.
tempeBob
Hey Bob you were across the street from my place.
Dick is a great guy you won't enjoy playing with him much - he spends more time at the cage cashing out than in the book store these days.
:-)
I am leaving for Chicago (DesPlaines) Tuesday morning. I'm not leaving poker or the rournament circuit - actually I am going to increase my participation in the big ones. BUT I am leaving Phoenix, an area I have come to love over the last 2+ years. I have met many fine people - mostly poker players and I shall miss talking to them and playing poker with them. Among the people I'd like to say bye to are (2+2 posters) Dick in Phoenix, Jeff the dealer at CA, George Lind, Jim Geary, Don, Duncs pal and my good friend JohnnyD - Johnny just a few more tournaments this weekend and we can stop bashing each others brains out on the tables. :-)
Cheers guys - I'll be back.
Mike Guzaldo
Mike Guzaldo ?
Rounder,
Will you please stop with the pseudonyms!
I will be in Chicago in late summer or early fall. My son lives in Madison, WI. Will look you up. I got an offa you can't refuse!
Vince.
Rounder,
Will try to connect with you at the Harrahs or Aurora room when in Chicago in mid July.
We can swap stories about "The Amazing" JohnnyD.
Abe
Sorry I wasn't able to get down to PHX this winter, Mike. Don really enjoyed going for breakfast and going over the hands. Good luck in Illinois.
Dunc give Don my regards.
Rounder,
Welcome back to Chicago. I have not been on the boats lately, due to being busy with my real job. Anyway, I will be at the Orleans Open for the last week of it in July. See you there.
Mike,
We're going to miss you around Phoenix. But I'm not going to miss the set of 3's you made at TARGET against my pocket Aces. I'm not going to miss your pocket Aces against my pocket Kings like last weekend at the $10K added tournament here. And I'm sure you're not going to miss my flopped nut flush against your set like last Wed at Gila's no limit tournament.
But I'm sure we will cross paths again at some of the other tournaments around the country.
Good luck and maybe I'll see you on the final table tomorrow at the $10K added no limit at Casino Arizona.
JohnnyD
Mike,
Hate to see you leave Phoenix as you are a great guy to talk poker with but wish you the best of luck and I , like JohnnyD, hope to be seated next to you at the final table tommorow at the no-limit 10k at Casino Az. Later,
Jeff
It was nice meeting you as well, Mike. I'm still a little curious about your asking me if I'm a trust fund baby, but that's OK. Maybe that's how I come off.
The Gila tourneys won't be the same without ya. Good luck and have fun in Chicago.
For the first time, I flew on National Airlines out of Midway for $203.00 round trip. The flight was non-stop, and there was extra room between the seats. Service was great and the flight was on time. At these prices, I will be using them more often. I stayed at Harrah's for $59 on the weekdays and $79 for Friday and Saturday.
On Thursday, I went downtown and watched the final table at the WSOP. It was exciting watching T.J. Cloutier and Chris Furguson play. I thought it was amazing how T.J. started chipping away at Chris' chips. When the two of them were left (sorry, I didn't take notes of exact amounts), T.J. had $450,000 and Chris had approximately 4.5 Million. After a little over two and a half hours, T.J. had 2.5 Million and Chris had 2.6 Million. Here's how the final hand went. Chris bet $300,000 and T.J. moved-in. After a while of thinking, Chris called. They both turned over their hands. T.J. had an Ace-Queen and Chris had an Ace-Nine. Chris caught a nine on the river and won the tournament. After thinking out the hand for a while, I thought T.J. should have called the $300,000 bet. Then on the flop he should have bet the pot. I'm sure Chris would have folded. I liked T.J.'s strategy of just getting a little of Chris' chips at a time. Well, hindsight is always perfect.
Thursday night, I went to the Mirage and played the $120.00 No-Limit Hold'em tournament. After the rebuy I busted out during the $200-100 blind level. I had a King-Queen and moved-in two from the right of the button and was called by a pair of Aces in the blind. Oh well. Later, I went to Lindy's Coffee Shop at the Flamingo Hilton and had a French Dip with mashed potatos. It was excellent. I highly recommend it. Later, I went back to the Mirage and played some $4-8 Omaha 8B and dropped $63 after a few hours. I decided to call it a day.
Friday afternoon I played the Omaha 8B $20 buy-in tournament at the Orleans. I knocked out two players for a couple of $5 chips and came in 10th place for $75. Well, its better than nothing. In the evening, I played the $60 buy-in No-Limit Hold'em tournamnet. When it was down to the last three tables, I moved-in in middle position with a pair of sixes and was called by the button who had pocket Kings.
On Saturday I played slots most of the day. I ended up with a net profit of $350.75. Most of the machines that I won on were the Slingos at the Flamingo and Slotopoly at Bally's. In the evening, I played Omaha 8B at the Mirage for a few hours and cashed out with a net profit of $2. Not much profit with poker so far.
Sunday afternoon, I played the $30 buy-in No-Limit Hold'em tourney at the Orleans. I was busted by the first hour after the rebuys. Later, in the evening I played the No-Limit Hold'em $35 buy-in - no rebuy tournament at the Stratosphere. It only paided six places and I busted out at 18th.
On Monday, I played the $20 buy-in Omaha 8B. I was ice cold. I couldn't hit a flop and lost shortly after the rebuy period ended. After the tournament, I stopped at the Flamingo and played a quarter machine called the X-Factor. I put $40 in and cashed out at $59.50 for a net profit of $19.50. Not bad. In the evening I played the $20 buy-in No-Limit Hold'em tournament at the Orleans. The table I was at was wild. I ended up doing three rebuys before the add-on. I eventually lost my stack about an hour after the first break. For the rest of the evening, I played slots at the Imperial Palace and Flamingo Hilton. I lost $30 at the Imperial Palace. Then I went to the Flamingo and played the Slingo machine. I pumped $60 into it and hit the bonus. I cashed out at $135.50. So, I made a profit of $45.50 on the slots. What a trip.
Nice trip report mah.You played a lot of poker and watched the finals.That's my kind of fun.Hopefully next visit,you will win a tournament.
Good Luck
Howard
Howard,
The finals were alot of fun to watch, much better than the videos. I actually took my mom to Vegas. She retired this year. I was trying to convince her that poker requires skill. You can see what happenened. T.J. lost with the best hand, and I won money playing slots. But, she did enjoy watching the playoffs, and that even surprised me.
mah
I sit here ataring at ten books and four binders of poker know how and the endless days and months I spend to make my game half decent to get enough to play again and then I spend twenty five cents and make $25 cause I`m bored and not caring to use my brain function.
Is the game worth the investment and time ...hell ya ..I gotta punish myself in some way ..why not the rollar coaster lifestyle of poker.
jg
jg,
I hate playing slots, but mom forced me too. You know mother is always right.
yes moms are usaully right.If anyone can get a man to do something its most always MOM.
jg
actually I find the penny slots a great place to go when I am on tilt. You wont loose much and you can keep your brain on whats important. and a win, any win even if its actually a loss(5 cents when you were playing 9 lines at 1 cent a piece) does make me feal better. considering the low stakes and short time I play them for I figure the speed they quickly get me back from tilt is worth far more than I will lose to those contraptions.
To the wizards of imagery I'm sure you could come up with a poker table to post hands on. Already got the deck of cards, but if they could be placed on a table that corresponds to the game 7cs, he or whatever it certainly would be easier than xx/7s, xx/5c.
tfbpf
Ray do they have movie theaters in Montana? The last time I was there I saw one that was playing Gone With the Wind. There was a huge line. Maybe you will get The Godfather up there soon. It's real good.
Calvin:
This is not a good question to ask Ray. I've heard the answer before and it wasn't pretty.
The 2+2 archives are large HTML files, and loading and searching them takes some time, even with a fast internet connection (such as DSL or T1). To speed things up, you can store them on your machine. The initial load may be slow (especially with dial up), but once they are saved they can be quickly accessed.
If you are interested and use Internet Explorer 5, try the following:
1. Create a folder for the archives (probably under My Documents).
2. Go online. Using IE 5, load an older archive.
3. Once loaded, select "File" from the top of the IE 5 browser menu.
4. Select "Save As". It should default to save as web page.
5, Press Save. The archive will now be on your hard disk as an HTML document.
6. When you click on the file, your browser will open and you can search it quickly. You do not have to be online.
Anyway, this may be obvious to experienced surfers but I just figured it out and thought I would share it.
Regards,
Rick
How much disk space it takes...n/t
I just checked the main March 2000 archive. It is about 1.8 megabytes, or about 1/3 of an MP3 song ;-).
Actually, I use a few more tricks. First, all my "favorites" to the 2+2 forums are produced by opening a frame in a new window so I just have the primary frame (i.e., there is no link list on the left). When saving it, there are actually several files created, and some are in sub folders. It is easy if you just create a new sample folder and try it. The space is not so great if you have a relatively new machine.
Regards,
Rick
Last night I was inspired to come up with an idea in a Vegas poker room. Sure it ain't fair, but what is in life or especially the poker room. I got everyone at our table to agree we would no longer toke the dealers. PERIOD! All this because the floorman ignored us when we asked why we couldn't have a non-smoking table or two in a large room. I counted at one point 67 players and from what I could gather, 7 were smokers. Maybe I missed a few so at most 10. So 1 in 7 almost, less than 2 a table. Is it really asking too much for a clearer air table, mind you not a room, but a table?
So for over 2 hours the dealers were bitching and moaning to the floorman who we personally blamed for them losing their tips. Dealer after dealer with sneering faces. God I loved it! At long last the floorman came over and gave us about 5 stupid reasons why we were being unreasonable. So he listened to us, but then told us he was ignoring our pleas for just a simple non-smoking table. For that I vow until I get at least an opportunity to play non-smoking in this town, I will not toke a dime. Not like the dealers will miss much I usually win two pots an hour and give 50 cents or a buck. Hopefully though I can get others to join us until the cardroom managers admit there is a market for it and give us the opportunity to play smoke-reduced poker. If it never happens, oh well, I can at least save a buck or two an hour. Over time that might pay for all the days of work I miss from being sick.
Sorry dealers, but if you don't like it, make sure your managers know why I have started it. They don't listen to their customers until it involves money. So stop tipping your floormen out as much because you got stiffed by us and your income shouldn't be that affected and then it works its way up and the managers finally will give into customer desires.
Wildbill-I share your hatred of cigarette smoke. It's the main reason I have vowed never to set foot in the Horseshoe again. Most dealers hate smoke just as much as you do. Plus, they have to deal with it 40 hours a week. They can't move away from a smoker and they can't have a fan. Making the one and ten seats smoke-free does little. So stiff everyone in Vegas if you want. Just don't act like a patriot. The only way they'll listen is if you stop showing up and contributing to the drop. And, no, I'm not a dealer. I'm just someone who realizes that it can be a really crappy job at times.
I'm having trouble following the logic here.Why should the dealers suffer because you're mad at management.Penalize the dealer when he does something wrong,not when someone else does something wrong.
I think smoking is disgusting and hope that one day it will be a thing of the past.I hope that California type anti-smoking laws find their way to Nevada.Until they do,stiffing the dealers won't help and actually is downright mean.
wildbill. i think the idea of punishing the dealer is like grounding your son because his mom isnt co-operating with your ideas... I do understand exactly the frustration but hey the dealers get enough abuse without having to be short changed for something thats out thier control. god its amazing how dealers get shit on for all the crap that happens at the tables.No money is worth it...
when was the last time someone here said to a dealer hey guy good job thanks...
jg
Believe me if its just me doing it, no dealer is going to be concerned, I play too few pots to make a difference in their day. As for staying home, that won't do a damn thing because most casinos here will never make the connection between smoking and lower attendance. I do it because I have reached the conclusion that nothing else works. Only thing that ever matters in this town is money, plain and simple. Staying home or just saying nothing will make no statement. Since I can't get the rake reduced, I have no other way to do it. If you all have a better idea, please tell me. Management in this town is about the biggest level of hypocrite you will ever find. They fake their interest in the customer while your requests go flying over their head unless you are a big financial contributor to their business. Well I am choosing to reduce my contribution, thats all.
jg,you bring up a good point about the dealers getting enough abuse already. I have seen too many ugly incidents while playing poker in Las Vegas, the past five years.One in particular that happened this year(3-13) was most unpleasant.An abusive player started calling the dealers every name in the book.This went on for hours.After getting no support from the floor(or us players for that matter) one of the dealers snapped.He slammed his fist onto the table,put his finger of his other hand, three inches from the abusive player's face, and shouted at the top of his lungs "You don't call me that name,no one calls me that name,not ever!".The whole room was silent,all eyes on the dealer with the finger pointed at the player.The floorman came over and the first words to break the silence were spoken by the player to the floor "I'm sorry I'm out of line"
Floor-"No more cussing out my dealers,you got it"
Player-"You mean you're not kicking me out I deserve to be kicked out,I wouldn't blame you if you did".
Floor-"No, I'm not kicking you out,but you better behave"
Player-"Boy,this place doesn't kick anbody out for anything,what a joke".
These type of things don't happen everyday,but abuse towards dealers does occur,and the floor at some places don't do a good job of backing up the dealers.
It greatly saddens me that poker players, who enjoy a simple freedom that a LOT of people in this country disagree with, would advocate taking the choice of smoking away from thier fellow players. If it bothers you enough then move or ask me politely to do so, ill be happy to and a suprising number of other smokers will as well. If there trully is enough anti smokers out there then somebody will open a no smoking casino and it will prosper. otherwise please stop trying restrict my fredom, as we will both loose out as soon as somebody decides to ban your favorite unhealthy habit.
ps. something I have mentioned to brush people,hoping it gets passed on to management, is to make the 1,2,3 seats or the 8,9,10 seats no smoking according to whichever is upwind as most buildings do have distinct air flow patterns. a much better alternative to the 1 and 10 meathod where the non smoker is going to have it blown in his face the whole time. rational accomidation is the key here, not placing another fredom restricting law on the books. Maby we can work together and find a solution to make both parties happy that the poker world could push for.
Vegas would probably be a tougher nut to crack when it comes to converting to Non-Smoking.
However, it just might be possible to get it done in a key cardroom or two.
Several months ago I started a petition at Foxwoods urging that the room be made N/S immediately in order to protect the health of both patrons and employees. The time seemed right to do so; there were increasing requests for N/S tables even at the higher limits, and across the river at the Mohegan Sun, air-coditioning problems had forced them to make their room N/S on weekends when it was crowded. The topic in general had been on the minds and lips of many lately, and the Spring Classic tourney area was planned to be N/S. So it seemed that a solid show of player support for making the entire room N/S might well have a very positive effectIt took much time to gather the signatures, and I was fortunate to have some help in doing this. They went completely N/S a few weeks after the petition was submitted.
In any cardroom, it is important that management realizes that going N/S will not hurt their business. In cardrooms across the country where N/S has been implemented, business has not fallen off;indeed it has often picked up. The fact is that many more people find the smoke objectionable than enjoyable, and even most of the smokers adjust. Besides, it really isn't that hard for smokers to step outside the cardroom area for a quick smoke occasionally.
I don't think it is fair to put the onus of this on the dealers by withholding their tokes until management responds; they are already being assaulted daily by the potentially deadly smoke anyway and cannot escape it unless they change their jobs or move.
Perhaps a petition with a lot of signatures would help in Vegas; perhaps not. Cardroom management must realize that going N/S won't hurt business at all. If they doubt this they could call the cardroom managers of major rooms that have gone N/S and get a report. It will also make the room cleaner, and the games seem to last longer in fresher air too. Plus the employees and cardroom supervisors just might live longer and in better health.
i agree that punishing the dealers may not be the way to go. but the dealers do represent the cardroom and its policies. they cant say i just work here. they are the employees of the casino. if they get together and protest they do have a say. the fact that they are complacient means they dont care. they are not going to get fired by proposing something. by withholding tokes to them it is indeed unfair but may work as the money talks. the management will aleast get the idea that the patrons are willing to disrupt their little quiet house. money does talk. id advise petions as M did in foxwoods and get everyone complaining regularly so that the job of being shift manager would be easier with a non smoking policy. all said las vegas is backwards and run by old timers that dont know two hoots about running a business. i see no change until california gets casinos full style and they take away most of nevadas business. but then who would stay then in that hot dust bowl of polluted air and traffic.
I'm experiencing my 10th month smoke free after 30 plus years of smoking. A few weeks ago while I was in Vegas the smoke bothered me for the first time as an adult. I probably understand the non smokers plight better now than ever before though I always considered myself a curtious smoker(oxymoron?). While now I would support a smoke free cardroom I,m not sure your approach will be succesful. Maybe a petition would open management's eyes. I live in Montana where it seems that there is even more smokers than in other more civilized states. I know players that no longer play because of the smoke, mostly small rooms with inadequate ventilation. There is a guy who is considering opening a room here in Missoula that would be smoke free. While I don't think he can be succesful I told him I would give his room a play while he tries. I'm not really in favor of states imposing non smoking establishments I'm strongly in favor of consumers affecting change. Good luck!
good day tell me what was the name of the book we were debating by tj.
jg
[Championship Hold'Em] Not to be confused with [Championship No-Limit & Pot-Limit Hold'Em].
n/t
.
Brett - Refer to my page on how to insert the card images, for how to insert an image - at http://www.annabelles-treasures.com/poker/deck.htm.
For any image you see on a web page, right-click on it, then select "properties" and you will see the web address of the picture: "http://..." Type that address into the format < IMG SRC="address" NOSAVE > and you are done. (NOSAVE is usually good, since you don't want to move the picture from where it is.) As you can see from my deck of cards page, you can specify a size as well if you want to .
For example, here is the top banner from my own page:
Dick
On my way back to Chicago I'll be stoping in Albuquerque for the night & planning on playing at the Isleta. Any Info on the place?
Sorry, I just read this post, or I would have told you not to bother. The action is at Sandia, on the North end of Albuquerque.
Brett
My wife and I are headed to Biloxi over the July 4th weekend. I plan to spend a lot of time in the Grand poker rooms in Biloxi and Gulfport. My wife is the consumate low roller looking for $.25 video poker and $3 blackjack. Does anyone who plays the coast know if they spread $3 blackjack at either of the Grands? I know the Isle of Capri does but I don't think they still have a poker room. The Grand in Marksville and Kinder guarantee $3 blackjack 24/7/365...npk
$5 Min. at both Grands.
I will be going to NY soon to play poker. Can anyone who plays up there advise me on the pros and cons of Turning Stone vs. the Mohawk casino?
The action at Turning Stone is pretty good. 10-20 HE and 15-30 HE everyday. Friday they have a 50-100 HE game that starts at 7:00. Sometimes it doesn't jump off and they turn it into a 30-60 game. The players are pretty good. Apparently they have been playing HE in home games up there for 20 or more years.
where are you?
i called your house. no answer.
are you at work? give me a call at 9758217
scott
Next time, try leaving a message with a little less profanity in it.
Anyway, I've been out. I'll call you. By the way, I do have email - our conversations don't really have to be preserved in the archives for posterity.
nt!
What does "nt" mean?
.
I'll be there (probably on the strip @ Flamingo) from the 9th to the 11th. will probably play the orleans tournament on sat at noon. Anyone else be there?
72o.
With the untouchable exception of Natural Born Killers, the worst 'major' movie I've ever seen.
Mindless drivel. Senile tripe. Utter bilge, rot and balderdash.
No wonder Kubrick died watching the final edit.
Nice masks, though. And Leelee Sobieski is young enough to overcome this.
truely said.. an absolute piece of crap...
jg
I gave it a 9-3o rating in Rounder's thread below about MI-2. As far as 'major' movie bombs go, have you forgotten Heaven's Gate and Waterworld?
I quite enjoyed Waterworld in some ways, I've seen plenty worse. How much it cost doesn't really bother me.
Andy.
Ever see Eraserhead?????
Unqualified--Most Bizare Movie--bar none--nothing comes close including Pink Flamingos and Blue Velvet
I've seen some "interesting" movies.
Fitzcarraldo=very good
Ratso,
If you know of a video store that rents obscure titles, try Jack Smith's Flaming Creatures or Stan Brakhage's Dog Star Man if you want bizarre. Has anyone ever seen El Topo?
John
Dog star man-no
Flaming Creatures-no
El Topo-si
How about 2,000 Maniacs?
Ratso,
Yes; wasn't that Herschel Gordon Lewis? I used to subscribe to a periodical named Sleazoid Express, which, despite its title, often highlighted rare underground films, better known underground films like Kenneth Anger's, and the most godawful sleazoid movies ever known to man (or woman).
One quick story: one day I went to a major chain, Showcase Cinema, to see The Texas Chainsaw Massacre. It was a 90+ degree day in August and when I walked in about a minute before showtime, I was the only patron. Great, I thought, I never had a whole theater to myself. As soon as the film started, in lumbers a guy weighing about 400 pounds, sweating profusely and wheezing incessantly from the heat. He walks down the aisle, looks around for a seat, and sits in "my" row, one seat over. Doesn't this guy know anything about personal space in America, I wonder. Well, I had to keep watching him for signs of sudden movement throughout the film. One never knows.
Regards,
John
I just saw a fascinating documentary on Klaus Kinski and Werner Herzog called "My Best Fiend".
Kinski was mad as a thousand battlefields and Herzog wasn't far behind him, but in a more 'German' way(I believe that Kinski was Polish).
The filming of Fitzcarraldo was very similar to that of Apocalypse Now, and the similarities between Herzog and Coppola are striking. Both nearly wound up raving off into the jungle. The documentary on the making of Apocalypse Now, Hearts of Darkness, is great. I seem to recall that Herzog produced one about the making of Fitzcarraldo, but I may be wrong.
The only Herzog/Kinski movie I've seen is Nosferatu(fantastic), but I'll definitely be renting Fitzcarraldo and Aguirre, The Wrath of God soon.
Bill,
Documentary film maker Les Blank has made two movies about Herzog, Burden of Dreams and Werner Herzog Eats His Shoe; and, yes, Herzog really does eat his shoe. Both are really worth seeing as are the rest of Herzog's films.
John
.
while i did not think eyes wide shut was a good movie, it was a failed attempt at art. there are worse things to fail at.
and natural born killers was great. absolutely great.
scott
Whenever I see what I consider to be a bad movie I ask myself: "Would my life have been better if I had had not seen this?"
Well, at least I got to see Nicole Kidman naked. I also liked the sets. It wasn't "A Clockwork Orange" though. I won't be recomending it.
CV
zzzzzzz--snore expected more
It would help if you saw the film as what the original novel's title was, a Dreamnovel but, still, there's no argument with taste; you didn't like Eyes Wide Shut, fair enough. Nonetheless, I put it to you that, objectively, Kubrick was the last of the cinema's great artists.
Proof: Who else is left making major movies today who can be considered as crazy? As original? As dangerous? As having something to say? As indifferent to audience previews and marketing department memos?
(I'll allow Altman, Lynch, Greenaway, just to be able field a team, of sorts. Maybe a couple more outfielders, that's it.)
Cyrus,
You might be interested in Lee Siegel's reading of the film in Harper's (October, 1999). By the way, the book the movie is based on is Rhapsody: A Dream Novel by Arthur Schnitzler who was a friend of Freud, Klimt, and Schoenberg (just in case you don't read the article).
But, I need to take exception with your paltry list of directors: I like the work of Mike Leigh, Atom Egoyan, Patricia Rozema, and, if I can find it, Raul Ruiz. But the two great directors still working on long, illustrious careers, and whose work often goes underappreciated and unseen by the mass audience, are Fred Wiseman and Errol Morris. I'll also put in a vote for Ken Burns for having the guts to engage in pure sentimentality, but it's good work nevertheless.
Regards,
John
John,
I agree with All Of The Above.
I was trying to put forward a simple sample and invited input for more "outfielders". I could've added Zulavski, Ioseliani, and so on. Notice, however, that I specifically asked for crazies still working in the mainstream. Never happen! And that was to show the difference between today's hamburgers and yesterday's adventurous product. You went in to see a movie by Mike Nichols or Arthur Penn or Coppola and you didn't know what the fuck you were gonna be hit with!
BTW, I've read the novel, after I saw the film. I don't read Harper's but I'll check the article. Thanks for the pointer. I did like Michael Herr's piece about Kubrick, with whom they were friends, in another mag.
--Cyrus
Okay, Cyrus,
Woody Allen, Scorcese, Peter Weir, the Coen brothers, and even though he's only made one movie in twenty years, it was mainstream, Terrence Malick. And talk about crazies? How many other directors have translated Heidegger and caused pure terror on the set like Malick? Hell, Coppola doesn't come close. But I know what you mean about those directors you mentioned; I miss that time, too.
John
There is nothing crazy in Kubrick. Actually, I am wrong, Kubrick is actually crazy, but not crazy in that super artist sense, where everyone sees him as crazy because he's saying everything all at once. Kubrick's work reminds me of the drool coming out of a sedated patient.
Cool Artist crazy: (and you were saying that cool artist crazy doesn't exist anymore) Natural Born Killers. Also crazy cool, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, but that's not crazy artsy, it's just crazy too, but at least it's funny, and kubrick did not mean to be funny when he wrote EWS, but boy was he!
Natural born killers is very crazy. "I didn't mean to kill him, it was just that dream i've always been having, with Mr. Rabbit, and the christmas hat, and the fangs." or something like that, it's not a direct quote. But Kubrick always stopped at it's crazy. He never said it's crazy, love it. That's what I hate about kubrick, he never sais anything interesting or origional; you'd have to be a moron not to know everything that kubrick tries to tell you in his movies. But how many people really understand violence in a way that Oliver Stone does?
anyway, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
you really didn't like clockwork orange?
scott
Clockwork orange was a movie based on a novel. I have not read the novel, but I have been told it is crazier than the movie. What did kubrick really do?
He was the director, and I never saw anything really interesting about the way the film was shot. This is definately one of my major gripes with Kubrick. He does not use interesting camera work.
I never saw much more to this movie than "crazy is cool" i will admit i haven't seen the film in a long time though. It was not a bad movie. It beats dogma hands down. But once you start comparing it to some of the great movies like Fight Club, American History X, Dead poets society and Natural Born killers, it just doesn't hold it's own.
-james H.
What did kubrick really do? I never saw anything really interesting about the way the film Clockwork orange was shot. This is definately one of my major gripes with Kubrick. He does not use interesting camera work.
OK, I'm game. What is "interesting camera work" for you? he asked, fearing the worst.
Take a movie like Sixth Sense. Sixth Sense is a good movie, sixth sense is not a great movie. It is a well told story, sort of like the matrix, but not as cool. In sixth sense, the director is very aware of color, and not just in that F. Scott Fitzgerald, red symbolizes blah blah blah way, but when you look at the film, there is a texture to the color which really enhances the film. His use of fades to black. There are all sorts of shots like the one where we see Bruce Willis's reaction to something straight onto his face, and the camera spins around his head and then we see what he is looking at. Even though the story line was mediocre, the film came off as pretty darn good, and every bit of it was the director.
The matrix is a great example as well. Look at American History X and the way the shots are done, it's art to the highest degree.
It doesn't take a genious to say the words and go through the actions of art. Everything worth seeing in a movie has nothing to do with plot. It has to do with tone. You get the tone right, and you have art. I have never gotten the feeling that Kubrick ever captured anything.
but that's just me, i could be wrong.
-James H.
by the way, what's with the MTV?
"..where we see Bruce Willis's reaction to something straight onto his face, and the camera spins around his head and then we see what he is looking at."
If you walk out of the movie and remember the camera work first, then the storyline or whatever, the you have been spoon fed. It may've tasted like candy but spoon fed all the same. That's my take, anyway (pun intended).
MTV brought over big time the ultra-fast montage, ultra-kinetic ants-in-the-pants never-stand-still camera movements and the disorienting angles. All this amounts to some very impressive technique but this rarely if ever translates into something insightful or meaningful; it's just a big showing off of Hi Tech. The song's just an excuse.
Pulp Fiction; Quentin Tarantino; the Travolta character opens the suitcase the kids in the apartment hand over; no fancy camera work, no tricks; a glow comes out of the half-open suitcase and falls on his astounded face; is it gold? is it some fantastic radioactive material? is it something gorgeous beyond our wildest imagination? is it a fucking lava lamp? We never find out - but the three kids are executed because of that suitcase. Do we feel cheated, as the audience? Or did we feel that we're at the hands of a major artist?
To understand camera work technique and how it helps (rather than distracts from) the movie, I'd suggest any Hitchcock.
--- Does anyone remember John Ford's masterpieces for inventive "camera work"? Fuck, no. Yet, get a load again of the famous scene in The Searchers where John Wayne sweeps up Natalie Wood in a simple, single shot! See how it's done, my babies.
A fan of Ford's films, who was a mean director himself, said "Where you place the camera is an ideological statement"!.. OK, those were the 60's and times were different but think of the camera work in films like The Rock, Matrix, etc; I come out mighty impressed and giddy but also wasted and tired 'cause I've been grabbed by the neck and swept through the movie, high and low and grounded down by the camera. In films where the camera supports rather than intrudes, and when the film "works", I may also come out wasted but there will be elation, instead of resignation; starry-eyed, instead of bleary-eyed.
Since we're the only ones reading these messages, and the thread is kind of long and hard to navigate to the bottom of, why don't you just e-mail me. And we can continue the conversation.
Anyway, I agree with you completely. The camera work is never the first thing I think of. When I see a movie I like, I watch it many many times. And you are also right that super fast action camera work is often more annoying than it is worth, i.e gladiator. But there were also some times when you looked at a shot and it was beautiful. Sixth sense was only there to say that it was a good director. I think people tend to give a little too much credit to directors, and not enough to writers. In the cases where they are one and the same, there is a lot of talent. If you want to talk about directors you have to talk about the things the director does.
You mention the simple shots, yeah that's definately important, sometimes the simple little things are the most important. American History X, is a film that is shot very simply, but the director paid a lot of attention to these shots. The really good directors don't use all that fancy camera work because they know how to put everything into the one shot. Derek turning around to face the camera, Derek charging at the camera with the gun in his hand. The waves, the first and final shot of the water. I don't know if you've seen any of this but it is great film making in my opinion.
Another of my favorite movies is dead poets society. Now, this was not shot by a great director, I think the movie was excellent, and There were some excellent changes to the script, who knows, that might have been due to the director, but I doubt it. But there were still unforgettable pictures in your head. There's this one scene with a bagpiper standing on the edge of a peir, there is no action, no movement at all, it is simply beautiful. Scenes like that help make the movie great.
As I have no idea what movies we have seen in common (probably not many) I will mention one more, and hopefully we can find a common movie to discuss more in depth. Taxi Driver had a lot of cool effects that gave the film a texture. The blurred lights went perfectly with Travis's monotone voice. there were a million crazy shots where the camera doesn't follow characters, but they are so well placed, you don't notice them, they just give you a feel.
I think what I am trying to say is that I agree with you on the fact that fancy camera work is not the point. Interresting camer work is. This includes framing that simple shot perfectly. If you look at a great photograph there are so many things that go into it, how close is the subject to the camera, fast/slow film, tilt, and just plain artistic sense so that the picture really captures something.
And I really loved the rock, but not for it's camera work, but for: Carla was the prom queen.
James H.
"you'd have to be a moron not to know everything that kubrick tries to tell you in his movies."
I love when people assume they've understood the artist's concept, message, and intention 100%. It cracks me up, especially after only one screening.
Ya mean 2001 wasn't about how cool gorillas and space ships are? LMAO. Kubrick ruled.
whlie i agree that kubrick does not fit into this category, a number of very talented artists are extremely simple to understand.
this is usually for one of two reasons. one is that the work is allegorical. orwell would be a prime example. the other is that the work evokes the intended reaction of its own accord without undue effort of the reader. bukowski is my example here.
of course, most lesser works are easy to completely understand and where ambiguity exists in these works it has no purpose.
scott
Situation: 10 sticks, 10 contestants. Only one stick is a winner (contest ends when winner is picked) Each contestant in order picks a stick. If it's not a winner, stick is removed, next contestant picks from the remaining pool of sticks.
Fact: Before the start, each contestant is 9:1 to pick the winner. Once each losing stick is removed, odds drop by one each time (8:1, 7:1, ...) until #10 has 0:1 odds (100% winning percentage)
Question: If Contestant A could pick which position s/he would choose in (1-10), what would be the best position to be in, and why?
I assume this is a mix of increasing odds of winning in a decreasing pool vs. the increasing odds of another contestant getting the winning stick before you do (with #10 facing 90% probability that winning stick is gone by the time s/he takes their 100% winning pick), but I'm not sure if the ideal position can be calculated properly.
are you serious?
if so, here is a hint. the answer is conatined in the question. more specifically, there is one sentence in your post that precisely answers your question.
scott
hands down, without a doubt, you want to pick first.
The reason? If you don't win, you can leave and spend your time more productively. If you're last, you have to sit there and wait for 9 other people to pick and maybe win. Who wants that?
I suppose you could bring a book to read if you are last though, so maybe there's arguments for both sides...
Easy, try to figure out who has the best odds when only two people are playing. That oughta give you your answer.
Dan
I was a swimmer in high school. Whenever I found myself in a decreasing pool I'd just complain to the lifeguards. It was usually just some idiot who pulled out the plug.
Player 1 has a 10% chance of picking the right stick. This much should be self-evident.
Player 2 has a 90% chance of being allowed to pick, and when he does, he will pick correctly once in nine times. 90%/9 is 10%, so he also has a 10% chance of picking the right stick.
Player 3 now has an 80% chance of being allowed to pick. When he does, he will pick correctly one time in eight. 80%/8 is 10%, so he will win 10% of the time.
Do you see a pattern developing here? :^)
The question was which spot should you choose. I think that, given the opportunity cost of waiting, first would be the obvious choice.
I am spneding time in Normandie, Paris and southern Spain, and maybe Amsterdam this summer. I have been playing 10-20 and sme 20-40 Texas HE. Can someone give me the scoop on playing poker in Europe?
Bill
Bill,
Check out the link to the European Players Association from "Favorite Links" opposite. As far as I know there is no poker in Spain, one club in Paris and two or three in Amsterdam. Vienna is really the "poker capital" of Europe in many ways.
Andy.
Now, here's a movie.
Quite the breath of fresh air after Eyes Wide Shut.
No bloat or pomposity whatsoever.
Plus, Peter Fonda gives the best summation of the the '60s I've ever heard in it.
Great flick - I am a cockney rhyming slang fan and i got a kick out of the use of it in the movie.
Well, I see it's finally happening. The 2 & 2 web page now has those flashing advertisements at the top of the screen. It was SO nice to have one place on my browser where that crap didn't come at you. And they are the really obnoxious misleading type that resemble an active window that you can close or minimize but if you try it just invokes the sales pitch.
Argghhh
Did you ever here the one about there being no free lunch?
x
Watch the hidden cams as they pick up their first hand.
Thousands of sound bites of barely 21 year olds asking the dealer if this is the right table.
Hundreds of pics of girls running through Sklansky's starting hand requirements!
Women moaning in delight as they rake in their very first pot, in full streaming audio!
You'll wish you could hold'em! You'll want to stud with them! You'll...travel to Omaha for them!
They're all here, just waiting for you to show them the nuts!
These girls love S&M! And Z's not just a letter of the alphabet. They'll Fekali y'all if you Badger them enough. Believe me, they know lots of words that rhyme with Chuck!
So come down and see her. Come down and hear her. Come down and poker!
Dan
I see you have been surfin the web. You know all the buzz words. How's the Hun's site? Still pretty steamy?
Atila the hun? The hunchback of Notre Dame? Hungry Hungry Hippo? Which site are you talking about, ratso?
And, if you look at my e-mail address, you'll see why I know the buzz words. I get way more than my fair share of spam mail.
Dan
Dan,
Quite possibly the funniest post I have ever read!
we do this web site for for little return. as it has grown we are getting some ad revenue, not alot by the way.
chuck does most of the work and receives book revenue and some ad revenue but which doesnt nearly pay for all he does for us.
looking at some ads is a small price to pay(free) for what is given here. its like tv, its free but there are some commercials but here you dont have to wait 5 minutes for the commercials to end. just dont look at them if you dont like what you see.
plus if no revenue is made this site will eventually dissappear, lets hope it continues. good luck.
Hey Ray, considering that the Internet Poker board is all people talking about Paradise Poker, why don't you take a tip from pro sports teams arenas in naming the site "Paradise Poker's twoplustwo.com"? Paradise seems to be your only advertiser, go after them while they are still in business before the government takes any draconian steps to shut down internet gambling. Go for one of those 30 year naming rights deals!
I do not mind the ads. I just do not like pop-ups that capture your computer. Chuck does a wonderful job maintaining the site. Also, the Intelligent Gambler Newsletter is excellent!
Alternatively, if one surfs with a lynx browser, the ads are rendered as no more than [image] at the top of the screen and are quite tolerable.
JG
Thanks Nick I didn't even notice them until you brought it up!!!!!
We've had the banner ads at the top of the page for over six months...and you've just now noticed? I guess we've been pretty low key, huh?
Chuck
anyone know the whereabouts of that character...
geez my mornings arent the same..Usaully i see a post here and there from him..
Now dont go kicking his ass while he`s away if he is,
most likely he is doing some grinding somewhere.
jg
Just went Phoenix to Chicago 1821 miles - did make a stop in NM and played some with a bunch of rocks who liked to check raise with the nutz then sllloooowww roll the shit out of you. I really hate slow rollers and these guys gave slow rolling a whole new meaning.
Won't be back there - no future in it.
rounder please keep us informed of the type of games your encountering,for our future reference..
jg
A buddy of mine who lives in Vegas says Sklansky is at the sports book all the time betting the horses. He goes from one track/screen to another, he's even betting the harness races!!! He says the other night Sklansky got pounded by the ponies and was last seen stumbling off towards the slot machine area with a bucket of quarters! Say it aint so David!
David's smart enough to know that the poker room is not the only place, in a Las Vegas casino,where money is to be made !
There are slot machines that have plus EV. Read Lund's book, "Robbing the One-Arm Bandits." I played one of these machines listed in his book and made some money. The machine is called X-Factor. According to Lund, if the multiplyer for the bonus round displays "6x" or higher you should play this machine until the X-Factor lines up with a winning combination.
I found one of these machines at Treasure Island. Someone left the machine with the multiplyer set at "4x" with 8 power points. Note that, you need 10 power points to advance to the next multiplier level. At this level I pumped $60 worth of quarters into it and when I hit the "8x" level, I hit the two double bars and the X-Factor symbol. This combination payed 40 coins multiplied by 8. So, I received a payout of 320 quarters and cashed out.
alec.. theres a saying variety is the spice of life...
you`ll notice that many great players have other interests in gambling whether it be horses ,craps etc....but the difference is they know thier advantages and disadvantages.
also getting away from the major game of your expertise brings you back more focused...
jg
While riding cross country last weekend, I stopped into the Horseshoe in Tunica. I was shocked at how small the poker room was. Actually, it wasnt a room, just an area that was roped off. Maybe a dozen tables.
I put my name on the list, and asked about a room for the night (Sunday). The floorman checked and said none was available. Since I had been on the road all day, I didn't feel like playing without taking a shower first. And I didn't see one familiar face at the tables. So I decided to move on without playing.
As I was leaving town, I saw some Hotels without casinos that looked like they had rooms available, so I guess I could have stayed. But the room just didn't look that enticing to me.
What did impress me was that Tunica is a small group of casinos out in the middle of nowhere, and so many people are flocking there to play negative ev games, that I couldn't get a room. How can we get these idiots to start playing poker?
Brett
Brett- Horseshoe Tunica is a great room. 13 tables with plenty of action at all limits. It is not "roped off" you make it sound like it is in the middle of the pit without anything special to earmark it as a unique area. That isn't the case. Part of the room has a half wall separating it from the slot area and then solid walls the rest of the way. It is adjacent to restrooms, a close stairway from the hotel, and right next to the snack bar.
Unfortunately Poker room is only allocated X number of hotel rooms per night and they must have hit their allotment for the evening.
I was there over Memorial Day weekend and action was great. $20-40 game went straight through from Thursday when I arrived until about 2 am on Tuesday morning 5/30. At times there were 3 additional $20-40 games and 2-3 games of $10-20 HOldem as well.
It is the only location in Tunica that you can regularly count on to spread red chip poker games every day. Rest of the poker rooms are primarily low limit $4-8-8 Holdem and $1-5 Stud.
It is my personal favorite. Friendly staff, well trained crew of dealers and consistent floor decisions.
I was also very pleased to see last weekend that a new floor manager has been hired and it was John Buchanan who had been a poker floorman at Binion's Las Vegas for several years. He and his lovely wife Leslie will both be working at Horseshoe Tunica. They had been working the tournament trail for the past year or so and have now decided to settle down in Tunica.
Diane
diane have things got back on track since your time of trial a while back....
jg
Thanks for asking, but still have some family troubles here.
However, husband wanted me to get away, so I still did the Memorial Day weekend. Felt good to get away, but I did still worry about those I left behind.
Was great to see many of my poker friends again.
Thanks,
Diane
There was a time when i truly had many friends ...Sadly to say in this day and age many of my friends have gone the way of the masses...and the few i still maintain as freinds are deeply respected by me ...so I understand when you say it was good to see friends again..
True friends have such a knack to lift ones spirit..
Things always seem to cycle in our lives.....adjusting and reaching an understanding are vital
thoughts
jg
Well, I have had enough of this "cycle" in my life.
Thank goodness for the support of my many friends and relatives. I am very lucky in that regard.
Diane
I'll take your word for it. There are 13 tables rather than 12. I didn't count them. That's still very very small. And a very picky point.
Your half-wall is more of a rail. Yes, it has two full walls, because it is stuck in the corner of the building. That still doesn't qualify it as a regular poker room. It is an area.
When I said there were no rooms, I meant there were no rooms. Poker rate or otherwise.
Whether or not the room is well run, I don't know. I didn't play there. It looked cramped and uninviting. I did hear several of the players complaning about not getting setups and chips. And I was only there for about 10-15 minutes.
Why you feel it necessary to argue with me when I state my opinions, I really don't know. But I am entitled to my opinions and I stand behind them.
My only question is; was it my imagination, or were they really playing "Dueling Banjos" in the background?
Brett
Brett- Why is stating MY opinion...."arguing with you"? Anyhow arguing with you was not my intent. It was just that you painted such a dreary picture of what has become my favorite room for live action when I am not on the tourney trail.
To me, stuck here in the poker wasteland of WI, a 13 table poker room does seem wonderful. My oher closest option is an indian casino in MI 95 miles away with 5 tables playing $2-5 Dealers choice.
Your experiences with cardrooms must be different to mine. Since I don't live in CA or Vegas, my world is dramatically different than most regular players.
Regards, Diane
Why are two of my favorite 2+2 people arguing about this? Can't we all just pick on Vince, instead?
Brett, sorry that your first Tunica experience was so negative. Hope you give it another try. I think its top notch in all regards---action, choices, dealers, comps, hospitality, etc. Your comment about "out in the middle of nowhere" is sure on the mark.
Abe ----headed for Tunica again in 2 weeks
The best way to get more people playing poker is to have good games. The best way to have good games is to have a well run room in all aspects. In the "Mason Sounds Off" section of our essay page, I have some essays which discuss a number of problems that many poker rooms exhibit. You may want to look at these if you haven't already.
One thing for sure. As long as most poker rooms exhibit many of these problems, you will always be asking your question.
One thing that WE can do, is to not think of them as idiots. Instead, think of them as valuable customers, whose business you must try hard to get, and continue to work on keeping. Make the game fun for the customers. The only guys you should ever want out of the game are those that are making it NOT fun for the customers, even if they are customers themselves.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This question comes up from time to time among some of the regulars at my casino. Some suggest that with all the staff required to host a poker room, the casino would prefer to have slot machines etc. occupying the space.
I suspect this might be true. I think the poker rooms are a feeder for the more profitable casino action due to the presence of 'spouses' etc. that play the slots etc. while the husband is at a poker table.
What do ya'll think?
hell ya thier profitable cause when we occasionally go on tilt we go and hit the keno board...or better yet the roulette wheel.. this way we punish ourselves for taking a fringin tilt...
jg
Impeachment is my choice for the last jewell of the triple crown. He is the image of Victory Gallop and I won a packet on him a couple of years ago.
I'm back on the Kentucky derby champ, Fusiachi Pegasus, if there is a decent price.
I bet High Yield in both the Derby and the Preakness, so shows you what I know.
Not that I plan on impersonating anyone on the forum, but how do the forum operators go about barring someone?
One approach is to continually delete any and all of their posts.
If the person changes his 'name', I believe they could utilize the captured IP address to more positively identify the undesirable. Or perhaps 'cookies' could be used.
dont respond to their posts at all and they will go away. what happens though is a few always have to respond and then the offenders keep coming back. but remember what you may think is barable(is that a word) and dont repond to, someone else may love(Vince). or the final word(Mason), comes along and gives the axe to the offending post and a bunch of people get up in arms. if it does (which it hasnt yet) the forum could go to a sign in type deal to log on. i hope not, but that works as then no one gets in without revealing their identity.
Jon,
I got barred from the Montreal Forum but that was a long time ago. I wouldn't wear a TIE!!!
ukw
Or, "Books You'd Take to a Deserted Island".
I read once where someone said something like "the difference btwn where you are now and twenty years from now will be the quality of the books you read".
1. The Biggest Game in Town by A. Alvarez - My mother used to subscribe to The New Yorker; I liked the cartoons. In the spring of 1983, I was flipping thru an issue, looking for Charles Addams, when I came across this.....ruined for life at 17... :)
2. The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand & The Universal Baseball Association by Robert Coover - TF is a much tighter story and much less a screed to the masses/call to arms than Atlas Shrugged. TUBA is an incredible character study of genius and isolation. I read TUBA when I was 10 and TF when I was 30. If I could change one non-genetic event in my life, it would be to reverse those reading ages.
3. Alice in Puzzle-Land & The Chess Mysteries of Sherlock Holmes by Raymond Smullyan - Wondrously entertaining and sneakily effective way of teaching logic and problem solving. Timeless, enchanting narrative is perfect for all ages. Every six year old should have their parents reading along with them and helping on the beginning puzzles(several chapters of AIP are probably PhD level).
4. Joe by Larry Brown - The ultimate hardcore testosterone novel. Redneck white trash gone bad. REAL bad. Makes Deliverance look like The Breakfast Club. Brown is supremely gifted in dialogue creation and descriptive ability.
5. Different Seasons & The Bachman Books by Stephen King - Yeah, I know, hold your fire. However, one would require some lighter fare on a deserted island(Hell, I'd probably smuggle paperbacks of Salem's Lot and Christine along, too), and besides, there's some good stuff here, not just good ghost stories. Seven of the eight novellas here have no supernatural events at all. Apt Pupil is a unique portrait of evil's corrupting influence(no Hannibal Lecter glamour here), Shawshank Redemption & The Body show the power of friendship, faith and persistence, and Roadwork displays the tragic consequences of losing those three things. Plus, I read The Long Walk in Air Force tech school; quite interesting to get in a chapter a night after marching four miles!
Interesting quote to start your post. I know I'll be giving some thought to what I've read in the past. At present I'd say Walden by Henrey David Thoreau and Main Street by Sinclair Lewis were some of the more important books I read because they influenced the philosophy I choose to live my life by. I'v read both Atlas Shrugged and the Fountainhead twice. I didn't understand why you liked The Fountainhead better. While my secound reading of Atlas Shrugged was over 10 years ago I liked Atlas Shrugged a little better( I just finished my secound read of The Fountainhead a few months ago). I also enjoyed the biography of Ayn Rand by Ms Brandon( Can't remember her first name). Will be reading one by her ex husband Nathanal Brandon. It will be interesting to see how different the two books are as they were both very close to her. I think now I need to reread Walden andMain Street.
1) The Autobiography Of Malcolm X
2) And The Band Played On: People, Politics, and the Aids Epidemic-Randy Shilts
3) A Confederacy Of Dunces-John Kennedy Toole
Post deleted at author's request.
Badger,
My favorite line from Walden, and I think it says something about your poker analogy, is from the Bean Field chapter: "I was determined to know beans." I'm also partial to "We can erect telegraph poles from coast to coast, but what if no one has anything to say to each other?" A priceless book, and I'm glad I waited until later in life to read it.
John
Post deleted at author's request.
"I have found repeatedly, of late years, that I cannot fish without falling a little in self-respect. I have tried it again and again. I have skill at it, and, like many of my fellows, a certain instinct for it, which revives from time to time, but always when I have done I feel that it would have been better if I had not fished. "
I think the problem is that Walden isn't near Montana...
Dan
I'm not much of a history buff, nor am I much of a war buff. However, after 25 years on this earth, I finally read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer. Extraordinarily compelling and mind-altering. If anybody loved this book and can recommend one like it, let me know!!
- Jeff
Post deleted at author's request.
In the military/history category, a book or two by John Keegan are a must. Check out "The Face Of Battle". This man is our answer to the writer of the Peloponnesian Wars.
I Would suggest "Mein Kampf" if this sort of reading interests you. As an interesting analogy, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" is to HPFAP21 as "Mein Kampf is to "Inside the Poker Mind" by John Feeney. The connection here is that both of the latter books are ostensibly insights into the minds of would-be dominators.
...'bout time it got mentioned in this thread.
"The Fall" by Camus. If you don't feel like a worthless piece of shit whose life has been a wasted pursuit of pleasure after reading this book you have no soul. I try and read it every so often to refocus my life.
Mark
BTW- Like this thread
i'm back, baby!
a.
Without a doubt, it would have to be "sniglets." Maybe, "beyond sniglets"
As my e-mail address implies, Ender's Game is my favorite book. When I tell people that, they ask me to describe it and I start out by saying "well, it's a science fiction book." 99% of the time they groan, roll their eyes, and start to walk away.
It's so much more than science fiction. It's about children who are pushed to the point where they don't even understand childhood anymore. About one boy's struggle to overcome a system where the adults have completely stacked the deck against him just to see if he can handle it. By page 10 you'll forget that this kid is just 6 years old.
You want a poker book? This one is chock full of ways to find weaknesses in your opponents and exploit them. It took me 2 days to read it in eighth grade and I've read it four times since then.
Dan
"The Forgotten Soldier" is by far the best book ive ever read. A fist hand account of a German soldier fighting on the eastern front of WWII. Not an extremely popular book, but considered by many of those who have read it to be the best WWII book out there.
The Collected Poems of Wallace Stevens
The Cantos--Ezra Pound
Walden
Montaigne's Essays
The Pound Era--Hugh Kenner
A Fan's Notes--Fred Exley
Arctic Dreams by Barry Lopez and Pilgrim at Tinker Creek by Annie Dillard
Run Silent, Run Deep in sixth grade--inspired my devotion to submarine movies
Wordsworth and Coleridge, The Lyrical Ballads, especially Wordsworth's Preface to the second edition
Ulysses--James Joyce
Anything by Raymond Chandler; great lines like "She stood out like a tarantula on a piece of angel-food cake."
Bill, BTW, I loved Coover's novel; if you can find a copy, check out Dave Frishberg's song "Van Lingle Mungo." Frishberg has the same reverence for names as Coover.
Regrads,
John
One of my favorites is Godel Escher Bach by Douglas R. Hofstadter,Ph.D in Physics.
Some recent novels I have read are quite good.
1) Angela's Ashes
2) The Shipping News.
3) I Know This Much is True
Not so important to read over again though, and I certainly wouldn't re-read Ayn Rand. Hemmingway, Steinback I would reread.
To kill the time maybe some tricky philoshphy, Witgenstein etc or some advanced physics. Also handy would be something like My 60 memorable games by Fischer or a Capablanca collection.
D
D.
Fischer's book is pretty good.
Naturally, though, any chess book is going to have great tips on strategy which can be applicable to poker. If it didn't have strategy tips, I'd find it a very poor excuse for a chess book.
And if you like Steinbeck, I highly recommend Travels with Charley if you haven't already read it.
Dan
Go Rin No Sho (The book of the five rings) by Miyamoto Musashi. Best strategy book written. The Japanese Economic empire was built around these principles.
This was the best poker book ever written, especially if you're a no limit player.
Cormac McCarthy is the greatest American writer of the 20th Century. OK, that's not one pick: start with Suttree, move on to the Border Trilogy, then backtrack through his really gothic western stuff. This guy takes, and retakes, my breath away. I'm a fiction writer and he makes me want to cut my fingers off.
Murray,
Just to let you know: my middle name is Wheaton, not Grady.
John
I'm guessing you're extra careful at the River, huh?
If you want to read a very good novel that owes a lot to McCarthy, try "Cold Mountain" by Frazier.
Murray (wish I had a cool name) Logan
My personal List of most important books:
BTW---what do you mean by "important"?? Important to me, or self-important books? Or maybe books that are important in an absoulute, non-biased way? AHhh, nevermind, sounds like a philosophy book I once read.
OK here goes:
The Concept of Irony--Kierkegaard--Try to forget that Kierkegaard was only 18 when he wrote this, otherwise you risk suffering serious blows to your emotional self-esteem.
The Red and the Black--Stendhal--The questions faced by Julien in this book with regard to life choices and "which path to take" are as important today as they were in 18th century France.
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich--William Shirer--Those who fail to learn the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them.
Amusing Ourselves to Death--Neil Postman--If ever you needed an excuse to stop watching Television, here it is.
The Presentation of Self In Everyday Life--Erving Goffman--Maybe the earliest book of tells ever written, Caro should read this one.
With Good Reason-An Introduction to Informal Fallacies--S. Morris Engels--This should be required reading for everyone on this forum (THIS MEANS YOU BADGER!), with a paper-and-pencil test before anyone can post on the forums.
I'd put Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises at the top of my list of most important books I've ever read. It was the first (and only) Hemingway I've read, and I only finished it a couple of months ago, but talk about a powerful book. It certainly made me wonder if history is repeating itself with my generation (I'm 22).
Second on my list, and a book I've read maybe 6 times, is Rogue Warrior, by Richard Marcinko. I can't believe that nobody else has mentioned this, since of all the non poker books I've read, this has the most applicability to poker, especially for an autobiography. Everyone out there should definitely read it once (unless you're easily offended, in which case you should read it more than once).
Bill
godot, notebooks of the malte laurids brigge, the trial, hamlet, 95 poems, the post office, notes from underground, some collection of ts that would include prufrock and the wasteland, a confedaracy of dunces
i am sure there are lots of other great books that i would bring, but here is a few no one has mentioned.
scott
A few people have problems with their lists so here's help. Define IMPORTANT, first! (surprised no one brought up this quibble yet...)
DESERT ISLAND important: You don't bring no philosophy books, c'mon, else you'll jump off the nearest cliff in no time! You do bring along a Survival manual, a Betty Page portfolio to worship - and any copy of People magazine to feel better that you're on a desert island.
CHANGED MY LIFE important: Can't go wrong with Ayn Rand (oh, dear), Pitcher in the Rye, Also Sprach Zaratustra (Elvis CD attached), any Camus (+Sartre to wipe bum with), H. Marcuse (how time flies!), On The fucking Road, ..take it away.
TREMENDOUS JOY important: List books you're ready to read again and enjoy, as in right now; the litmus test of fun.
MY COUSIN PEPE THINKS THEY'S important: his book collection's all by the same author: Anonymous.
Cyrus,
My list was important for me, and I'm ready to read them again and again. And, puleeeze, I'll take one essay from Emerson over the collected opus of Ayn Rand.
BTW, how vast is Pepe"s collection of erotica?
John
John, I'm glad you liked your list.
On a more serious note, I'll have you know that Pepe's collection's not for sale; nice try alla same! It's also strictly off limits; one time I sneaked a peek and was all I could do to marvel at my big cousin's meticallousness, whatever: every five or so pages was earmarked.
'At's my cousin, the brain o'the family.
Sincerely,
--Cyrus
.
x
I was in Casino Az yesterday and they have gone to "No Smoking" in the poker room. It was great!
TempeBob
I understand the Fort and Gila have also gone N/S - guess they were waiting for me to relocate before making the change. :-)
I assure you the Fort has not. I was there Sat night for their tournament and the smoke was horrible. I will not go back except for the tournaments, which are non smoking.
JohnnyD
what is the status of 10-20 games? wed afternoon around 5pm there was no game at casino az and only 1 name on board.
i thought maybe it moved to ft mcd because of the 1/hr time charge i had heard about, but i went there friday night and 4-8 was highest game. i had to wait 60 minutes to get into the 1 1020 game at casino az, and it broke around 3am.
brad
Bob since I left everythings gone to hell :-)
jus kidding!
Just out of curiosity, are John Feeney and Paul Feeney related? If not it would be a huge coincidence, given that Feeney is a fairly uncommon last name. BTW, would this coincidence qualify for David Sklansky's description of causality in which two events, which on the surface appear to be unrelated, are in fact statistically more like to be related than unrelated? (The old snow/earthquake thing in one of his essays in Fighting Fuzzy Thinking).
They are brothers,Bro.
Bro's in spirit, as are all Irishmen, possibly separated at birth, though there's no way to know for sure.
Maven,
"expert or enthusiast: somebody who is an expert or knowledgeable enthusiast in a particular field"
Obviously not in the field of Irish Ancestry.
The Right One
Correct on the definition of "maven." Incorrect on the assumption that I would consider myself a geneaology "maven." Remember, This is a poker forum, why would you think I might therefore know ANYTHING about Irish Ancestry?!?!?!?
Well, since the very best poker players are of Irish descent I would just think...
-the left one
Mine is a Strawberry-Banana Colada. Here is the recipe I use:
1 ounce dark rum 1 ounce light rum
1 banana 1 cup crushed ice
1 marachino cherry 4 ounces of pinapple juice
1 pinapple slice 5 strawberries (riper the better)
1 ounce of coconut cream (you can buy it in a supermarket)
In a blender, combine dark & light rum, banana, strawberries, pinapple juice, crushed ice, and coconut cream. Blend well at high speed. Garnish with the cherry and the pineapple slice on a toothpick (I sometimes use the ones with umbrellas). I usually use a collins glass to drink them from but sometimes I buy fresh pinapples, hollow them out, use the pineapple from the hollowed out pineapples to make the juice and serve them in the hollowed out pineapples. Also I always try and use top shelf rum. Currently for the dark rum I use Myers and for the light rum I use Captain Morgan. Any suggestions regarding the rum are always appreciated.
Captain Morgan's is a spiced rum, not a light rum.You may already know this though.It sounds like a good drink.
Yes it is. Any good recommendations on light rums?
Barcardi is good.
My two summertime favorites:
1)Margarita on the Rocks (salted or not)
2)Gin and Tonic (with a Lime).
Make sure to wear Sunscreen.
CV
Hey, come to Florida. It's summer here all the time, and you (and I) can drink Margarita's all year round :)
please re-post this for favorite fall, winter and spring time drink
Beer and lots of it; preferably Anchor Steam or LaBatt (nice light beer with some taste not like that crap Coor's light).
To make a Coors light, take any Coors beer and add 3 ice cubes; let melt. It must be the water because there ain't nothing else in it.
Beer is good on the beach because you can go in the water and .....well you know.
is shill the correct term for the one that's not a prop?
Who plays with his own bankroll, and who plays with the house's money... I ask because I may have the opportunity to be a prop, but I don't know what a prop is... kinda tricky!
Thanks, B$
A prop = Play with your money.
A shill = Play with the house's money.
Good Luck
a prop plays with his own money. the house gives him a salary or returns his time charges back. depends on the place and deal. the higher the limits they make you play the more you get paid. thats the good part. the bad is you no longer are your own bboss in poker. you must go play where and when you are told. you have to play in bad games and shorthanded and suffer thru bad situations you would normally quit. the only props that tend to make it are ones that are really good players to start with, as if you have any weaknesses the bad situations will break you. its a bad deal unless its going to be where you are playing in games you would play in everyday anyway whether you got paid or not.
Thanks for the advice, Ray... I expect that for the next few weeks I'd be playing in these games anyway, and I can always get out of it... Although I think they recognize that I'll be there if I'm paid or not, so it won't happen in the end.
Do shills get paid, or just bankrolled?
B$
shills get an hourly salary. but sometimes in smaller cardrooms they will give so called shills a small stack of chips to play when they need a game started and instead of salary a % of what they win. they are usually the brokes that hang around looking for any stake and the cardroom gets a body for the game and hopes he manages to hang on to a few chips. shills used to be so bad at blowing off their chips that the bosses made them only play big pairs and sometimes only aces. ive seen where they wouldnt let a shill put any chips in the pot other than antes.
Shills are fairly rare in games these days, but you still see them in smaller rooms in CA. I worked as a prop in one room in CA a few years ago and the pay was quite good if you are a decent player. They also used a bunch of shills, but it basically was when the games were short, the floorman would tell an off duty or on break dealer to get some chips at the cage and play. If you win, you get half the winnings, if you lose the house absorbs it. The floorman would also use a few trusted regulars, but most were people that hung around the room just looking to shill. One guy just liked the atmosphere and usually got in a play or two a day at no risk.
As for propping, well yes you do lose the standard benefit of choosing your schedule. You basically agree to a set schedule that is whatever number of days you want to put in and the room needs you. Most props are graveyard players that often find themselves playing each other and one or two actual players, along with a shill and the floorman. Not the livest games, but then again thats why CA cardrooms pay over $15/hour to prop. If you prop the bigger games, the general rate is $25/hour for 15-30 or lower, $30/hour for up to 30-60, and whatever you can negotiate if you are one of the few props at even higher levels. Also when you get into the higher limits, you often can have two more beneficial situations. First you don't get picked up. Generally the deal is that if you are a middle limit prop you will be in those games almost exclusively and if you are in one you can choose when to get up. Lower limit props are truly just puppets, often going from game to game, but middle limit props often sit in early in a shift and can play up to their full shift in a set limit, even getting put on must move lists. The second benefit is that many become "silent" props where its not all that easy to find out that you are a prop. Depends on the cardroom, but some places have 10 props that are generally unknown to be props except to those in the know as they have no nametags and some even get flexible schedules where they just have to put in 40 hours or whatever a week and sign in and out when they feel like playing. They are supposed to follow somewhat set hours where they won't come in between say 7-12 when a room may have no use for them on most nights. I met one guy doing this at Hollywood Park and when all things are considered, he is pretty much like a regular pro player, just gets a bonus in prop salary. I have never quite understood the value of a player such as this, but he told me there are quite a few around LA area in middle limit games.
hmm... Thanks everyone for the info... Actually sounds kind of lame. If I wanted a set shift, I could work a regular job. But if it comes together, and they offer me a reasonable rate, I suppose I'll give it a shot. I'm most likeley to be playing from mindight till six anyway, and I enjoy short handed play. And even in the toughest games up to 10-20, I can hold my own even if I can't win much. 15-30 and up, I would want to be more selective. I'll let you all know how it works out (if it happens).
btw, wildbill, did I tell you I decided to move to AC? 1 bedroom on the boardwalk, July 1.
Thanks for your advice on points south and west.
B$
Well I don't think they allow shills and props in AC do they? Considering all their other tight ass rules I would think that would cause their commission members a heart attack thinking someone was gambling with house money.
BigSlick, are you going to stick still with mostly online games or be more into live games now?
online, wildbill
The traditional meaning of a 'shill' is someone who acts as a decoy in a confidence game. e.g. they act like a customer or an innocent bystander but are in cohoots with a con man for the purpose of hustling somebody.
My vote goes for: "Hear ye, hear ye. Ye old town crier proclaimed crappy by all. Chooseth Homer Simpson and he shalt rock thy world."
1)Mr Burns in the It's a Wonderful Life take-off ending where eveyone is donating money into a basket to save the Simpsons. "Does anyone have change for a button?"
2) The mail in a dollar for eternal happiness scheme Homer tries with the auto dialer. Mr Burns gets the call message and says: "A dollar for eternal happiness ... hmmm....( takes out and looks at dollar)...I'm happier WITH my dollar"
Simpson, eh?
I have no use for such juvinile programming.
"OK, brain, you don't like me and I don't like you. But go along with this and I'll go back to poisoning you with alcohol."
1) "Doh"
2) "But first, a wee nip o' courage"
3) "Mom! Dad! STING!!!"
"Woo-hoo, Marge, I got a new job at the power plant ! Tomorrow we can go out and buy all the baby clothes and stuff we need" - "Hrrrmmmm, Homer isn't it your first day at work ?" - "Ahh, they'll cover for me".
By a nose from about 100 others.
Andy.
This reminded me of one:
Burns to Homer: after he missed some work. "If you're not back at work tomorrow,( Friday ), don't bother coming in Monday."
Homer: "Woo Hoo, four day weekend!"
D.
How about this one?
I didn't kill Nicole!
Vince.
Sorry, I couldn't let it go at just one. Here are three classics that are relevant to these forums.
Probability knowledge - "Sick on a Saturday ? What are the odds of that. A thousand to one !"
Internet gaming - "Hello Vegas ? Gimme a hundred bucks on red. D'Oh !! OK I'll send you a cheque"
And sports betting - "Krusty, you bet _against_ the Harlem Globetrotters ?", "Ahh, I figured the Generals were due."
Now as Marge would say, "Stop remembering TV and get back to work".
Andy.
In the episode with the cat burgler. Homer - "Lisa, never ever talk in the middle of a ho down."
Lisa - "Who will police the police?" Homer - "I dunno, coastgaurd".
I could post about a million more, but these are two of my favorites.
My father and brother are going on a road trip our west and they asked me to find out where in AZ has the higher limit hold em games. Say 20-40 and above. Thanks in advance, EggmanZ
At Casino Arizona they do.
I have often thought about starting up some kind of home game, similar to what some of my friends do up in Boston, where they really discuss and dissect each hand while dealing the next. Of course, the most interesting hands are discussed for much longer than that.
On the other hand, I live 6 miles from Foxwoods, have a full-time job, a wife, and a daughter. I don't have a lot of free time, and don't want to do this to the exclusion of playing bigger games at FW (or MS). Thus, the game would only occur occasionally, it would likely never become a weekly thing. As it is, I only get to play about once per week, and wouldn't want this to become the only poker I play.
Recently, after winning the World Championship, Chris Ferguson commented that he and a friend(s) would get together and play heads-up freezeouts for practice. That's something else I'd love to do. M recently posted about getting more heads-up postings on this forum, so we could all learn more and become better at heads-up (and short-handed) games.
I am interested in getting together with some of my 2+2 (and rgp) friends for the occasional heads-up practice games. We could play freezeouts tourney style, limit or NL, HE, stud, and all other games, and do lots of discussion, including the posting of the most discussion-worthy situations here on 2+2. We could play without gambling, or add a modest amount of money, just enough to serve as an incentive to not get lazy. Heck, even Vince would be welcome (I still need my revenge or him beating me in that satellite).
If this would interest you, let me know. The earliest this would happen is most likely sometime in August, as I will be having lots of houseguests for the next few weeks, and then going to LV for the Orleans/TOC in late July. Maybe I could get something to happen once just prior to that trip for a TOC final table heads-up practice session. Ray will be very happy if you help me get even better.
Anyway, post here with your contact info, or email me. Let me know if there are certain days/nights that tend to be better for you. This could be just you and me, or we could have a few heads-up games going simultaneously, with players rotating around to face one another. I recently purchased 800 casino quality chips, each embossed "RAYMER", so we will be able to play this with the proper "feel".
BTW, I haven't run this by my wife yet, so if you email me, be sure to word it properly. Say things like "Greg, IF you do this, I would be interested." I don't want her to think that this is a fait accompli, and she had no say. Those of you who are (or have been) married know exactly what I'm getting at.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I live 50 Mins from FW....and I consider myself a decent shorthanded/heads up player. I came in the money in 6/10 1 and 2 Table super satellites at the World Poker Finals, and 2/5 at the NE Poker Classic at FW. M (Mark Stults) knows me, as we both played in 10-20 HE together before. You can reach me via email, I would be glad to play in these sims.
Greg,if you have time when you are in Vegas,I would love to play.It sounds like a lot of fun,plus a good learning experience.
Lots of Luck
Howard
I have done this a couple of times with a friend of mine who also posts on this forum. It was a lot of fun and I would love to continue to do it. We both currently live in Seattle but in the next few weeks he is moving to LA and I'll be moving to Vegas. I would love to continue to do it. If any players in the Vegas area are interested in these types of home games let me know and maybe we could set something up. My friend and I played freezouts for 10-15 bucks a match. I would be fine playing for this amount, a little more or for nothing at all, as long as it was set up to be a learning experience. For those interested post back on this forum or email me at atwoodk2@hotmail.com.
Howard, you mentioned some interest, and while I don't pretend to be the player that Greg Raymer is, I'm interested.
ATWOOD,I'm loking forward to meeting you.
z
Greg,
I think this is an excellent idea but I do have a couple of personal caveats.
I would only be interested in playing if no money were at stake in other than a casino setting. I am NOT afraid of angles or cheating, but rather I would prefer to not be in a position where someone could suspect me of something like that.
However, a small incentive such as loser buys a pizza (or even something a bit healthier like turkey subs or whatever) might be just the thing to add a bit of realism to the play.
I live about as close to Foxwoods as you do. 'Til later, Mark
To me the discussion and analysis would be very important; the fun would be nice too, but the learning would be #1.I would prefer full discussion (max. learning), though not necessarily constant discussion.
Greg,
I'm originally from Newport, Rhode Island and would do it in a heartbeat if I had the chance.
One alternative is to play heads up on the internet. You can play the lowest stakes and I have gone long periods where the pot never exceeded $20 and they got no drop. Anyway, consider this as an option. I know of some who post on the forum and rgp do this for practice (in one case they are on different continents!).
Regards,
Rick
I would LOVE to do this. I live about 1.5 hours from Foxwoods, but I like to drive. :-)
I'd probably get alot more out of this than you would, though. I'm not at quite the same ability level, so I'm not at all sure it would help you to include me.
I played in a home game in NY (just moved to MA) where we sometimes discussed strategy at the table. Discussion was usually fairly inhibited, though, because we were playing for real money, even if very low stakes.
David
Cecil Adams is the author of "The Straight Dope", a syndicated column that runs in several alternative newspapers. The column has also been compiled into several popular books ("The Straight Dope", "Return of the Straight Dope", "Triumph of the Straight Dope"). In addition, he's a perfect example of Sklansky's 'Type A' thinker, and he's been fighting fuzzy thinking for a long time.
This weeks' column covers second-hand tobacco smoke, a subject dear to the heart of many poker players. Click on the link below to read more about it:
Does Second Hand Smoke Cause Cancer?
I highly recommend Cecil's books to twoplustwo readers. Not only are they enlightening, but the guy has an ascerbic wit that is really fun to read. Trust me.
Here's an online collection of some of his columns:
Read it. You'll be glad you did.
I could write on this for months. Briefly, I question the EPA, but I do not believe the tobacco industry at all. I can tell you with 100% certainity that second hand smoke does contain a number of potent animal carcinogens (nitroso compounds) that we know of and probably some we do not know of. If something (2nd hand smoke) contains known cancer causing chemicals, isn't it reasonable to conclude the smoke is very capable of inducing cancer in susceptable individuals, and it is probably dose related? Should not that be reason enough to ban it? The only arguement presented by the tobacco industry FOR smoking is that "it is traditional". That's it. The only definitive test with enough power to control for all the environmental variables would be to separate twins at birth and subject 1 to 2nd hand smoke and the other not. Sounds stupid, right. Well, that is about the only thing tobacco industry would accept as evidence.
The solution to the tobacco problem is simple. Allow all those who smoke to continue and not tax the cigarettes any more that they are, but ALL advertizing for tobacco products MUST be banned. No advertizing of any sort. If that were the case,I believe smoking would almost disappear in 5 years.
We would all benefit if everyone in the USA sent the tobacco companies $100 a year NOT to sell tobacco
ETS does not cause cancer. In fact, most of the health scares put out over the past 50 years have been bogus. Sure there are carcinogens in tobaccoe smoke, but that doesnt mean anything. The dose makes the poison. Some scientists have suggested that smoking up to eight cigarettes a day will have little or no chronic health effects. So I doubt second hand smoke will cause any problems.
For good information about ETS and other environmental health scares (including a good debunking of all this "organic food" nonsence) go to www.junkscience.com. Its unbeleivable how much BS is out there and how easily the American public buys into it.
It's a red herring. Second-hand smoke does not cause cancer (often.) It causes heart disease. It causes heart attacks. It causes death.
-Abdul
Can you point me to some links which describe these studies?
In a few months, if you go to www.deja.com/usenet and type "rec.gambling.poker abdul smoke heart disease", then it will pull up an article with links to the studies.
-Abdul
Let me be more specific. Second hand smoke does not cause any serious health problems, including the ones youve mentioned. Im an industrial hygienist and know a great deal about toxicology. Ive read a lot about this particular issue, and beleive me, the EPA along with many other environmental health related groups are full of crap on many issues.
How interesting. Since you are an industrial hygenist, perhaps you can tell me why, when I am around cigar smoke, I get sharp chest pains, intense headaches, constricted breathing. This often happens before I see the offending object, so you can't claim any sort of post facto attributions on my part. In fact, when downwind I can detect a cigar smoker 50 yards away. cigarettes yield less acute forms of the above.
Perhaps you can explain how suffusing the public breathing spaces with burnt ash and other particles is an example of good hygenics.
I never said it wasnt irritating. Sounds like you might be alergic to the smoke. All I'm saying is that second hand smoke will not cause permanent chronic health problems to otherwise healthy individuals.
You said yourself that the carcinogenic effects of second hand smoke (and of any carcinogen) are dose related. It is ridiculous to say that, without qualification, "second hand smoke will not cause permanent chronic health problems to otherwise healthy individuals" when there's no way to measure the dose in each healthy individual. I can contrive many situations, which may or may not be analogous to a real situation, under which I guarantee you the test subject would be at a higher risk of chronic disease. You want some examples? Some caged person with cigarettes burning all day every day in the cage. Less contrived. Parents who smoke in the house two packs a day each. Or, poker players, who choose to play poker in a smoking room, and inhale second hand smoke for years. Come on.
Bill
Under realistic conditions, including the a household where two parents smoke two packs a day, the dose does not reach the level of significant risk.
Perhaps you are right about the dosage not becoming high enough to cause an effect in the situations I mentioned. However, you state that second hand smoke doesn't cause disease in otherwise HEALTHY individuals. It's wrong to say every individual who encounters second hand smoke will be healthy, since we can guarantee this is not the case. Do you really believe that many people with respiratory diseases (emphysema comes to mind) wouldn't be adversely affected by second hand smoke?
Perhaps there have been studies on disease and second hand smoke, but I doubt it. Maybe you could enlighten me.
Bill
Well, Bill, I'm not an authority on the subject, but perhaps I can help you a little more than Ivan can.
A few months ago I went to the website of the CDC (Centers For Disease Control), and searched through the extensive information and links a little bit. I found in this site (I forget exactly where) some forms you can fill out online to request copies of various reports dealing with smoking studies and secondhand smoking studies. If you want to try it, go to
www.cdc.gov
This is where I got (free for the asking) a copy of the 1986 report of the Surgeon General, as well as a few other reports including the much-attacked EPA report itself. You can get some reports by filling out online forms; others you must phone or write for. Some CD-s are also available. I believe I read a figure of over 50,000 total reports available overall--not all deal with smoking, I would think.
From page 12.
1. Involuntary smoking is a cause of disease, including lung cancer, in healthy nonsmokers.
2.The children of parents who smoke compared with the children of nonsmoking parents have an increased frequency of respiratory infections, increased respiratory symptoms, and slightly smaller rates of increase in lung function as the lung matures.
3. The simple separation of smokers and nonsmokers within the same airspace may reduce, but does not eliminate, the exposure of nonsmokers to environmental tobacco smoke."
Note that 1. above is in direct contradiction to Ivan's claim, for which he offers no evidence, that secondhand smoke does not cause disease in otherwise healthy individuals. Now I wonder how he came up with his assertion that two packs a day by parents does not affect children. Maybe that's how many packs a day Ivan smokes. I don't see anything in the report of the Surgeon General to indicate that Ivan might be right here either.
If you go to www.cdc.gov and poke around, you may find it easier to find "tips" regarding smoking's effects and the benefits of quitting. If you dig in a little and really look around, you should also be able to find access to all kinds of actual studies and reports.
You can also access information on a great many diseases and general health issues.
I think the brief description "About CDC" is also worth reading.
The report I am quoting in the above post is NOT the EPA report, but the 1986 report of the Surgeon General.
nt
The dose makes the poison. Some scientists have suggested that smoking up to eight cigarettes a day will have little or no chronic health effects. So I doubt second hand smoke will cause any problems.
10 years ago a small cardroom put up new wallpaper. They used the same wallpaper as before. It had been two years since they changed it. The new wallpaper was white. The old wallpaper was a sickly yellow.
What about the smoke that comes out of the end of the cigarette while you're smoking it. Looks like first hand smoke to me. Second hand smoke is harmless...yeah right. Sell us another one smoker.
That's the kind of fuzzy thinking that a lot of people employ in their fight against public smoking.
Who cares what color the wallpaper is? Is there a correlation between discolored wallpaper and human health problems? All you've proven is that many years of cigarette smoke have left particulate residue on the wallpaper. Whether that residue hurts humans or not is the question.
And yes, the smoke that comes off the end of the cigarette is just as dangerous as the stuff going into the lungs (maybe more so, since it's unfiltered). The difference is in the concentration. A lung full of directly inhaled smoke might contain thousands of times more smoke as a chance inhaling of a stream of smoke from a few feet away from a cigarette, and that chance inhaling may only happen a few times in a night, as opposed to a smoker directly inhaling lungfulls of smoke hundreds or thousands of times a night.
and what I found was primarily opinion columns and letters to the editor on this issue. One of the few factual issues dealt with the controvery of a federal judge from tobacco country overturning the EPA's 1993 study in which it found that 3000 nonsmokers a year are killed by secondhand smoke. Apparently this is the focal point of attack by those who believe smokers should have the right to injure the health of others in indoor public environments or workplaces.
I did not see anything there attempting to refute "THE HEALTH CONSEQUENCES OF INVOLUNTARY SMOKING", a report of the Surgeon General, 1986, U.S.Dept. of Health and Human Services, Public Health Service, Centers For Disease Control. I have cited portions of this Report in my post, "Some Real Facts".
There are a number of flaws with your arguments.
If something (2nd hand smoke) contains known cancer causing chemicals, isn't it reasonable to conclude the smoke is very capable of inducing cancer in susceptable individuals, and it is probably dose related?
Not necessarily. There are substances that induce cancer if ingested in very large quantities, but seem to have little or no effect at all in smaller quantities, or if they do have an effect it's not a linear relationship. That's why you need the studies.
In any event we ingest carcinogens every day. Natural pesticides in fruits and vegetables, burned meat, milk, coffee, etc. None of these add appreciably to risk of dying from cancer. Many of the every day substances we enjoy are carcinogenic if taken in large enough quantities. Sunlight can cause cancer if you let it damage your skin, but in moderation is actually beneficial (as a source of Vitamin D). So the question is whether or not second-hand smoke falls into this category or not, and it IS an open question. One thing is clear is that there is simply not enough evidence to make categorical claims on one side or the other. I would add that since whatever effect there is is so small that it's hard to separate data from noise, it should not be attacked as a public health problem. There may be other reasons to ban public smoking, but the risk of cancer from second-hand smoke isn't one of them.
It is not a reasonable argument in a free country to say, "Well, if there's even the teeniest risk we should ban it." Public health policy is a tradeoff between freedom and public safety, and there's no place within it for absolutism. Any time you interact with your fellow citizens you change their risk. I could trip on my way down the escalator tonight and break the back of the person in front of me. I put lots of people at risk when I drive my car home from work. If I play softball on a public diamond, I create the risk that a foul ball will hit the windshield of a moving vehicle and cause an accident. We accept these risks because they are small, and the consequences of preventing them are chilling to liberty.
No, the argument FOR smoking is that free citizens want to do it. Since the U.S. (and Canada where I'm from) are based on a respect for liberty, the burden of proof is on those who wish to take it away. Sure, there is no question that smoking is bad for you. But so is sitting on the couch every night eating Fritos. Neither of these activities should be a subject of public policy until they start to interfere with the liberty of other people.
That's ridiculous. There are lots of ways to separate out dependant and independant variables from population groups. The reason we've been relatively unsuccessful with second-hand-smoke studies is because the effect, if it exists, is very small. That means small errors in methodology can render a study meaningless. The same can be said for other studies that attempt to find small signals in a lot of noise. They must be very carefully designed and carried out, and then they need independant verification from other studies that discover the same information.
That's also ridiculous. The demand for cigarettes is somewhat inelastic. Many studies have shown that people don't tend to start smoking because of advertising, or stop because of a lack of advertising. The ads do tend to shift market share from one brand to another, and I have no doubt that some people eventually might start because of the conditioning from long-time exposure to advertising, but once they start they aren't going to stop simply because cigarette companies don't advertise.
There are absolutely no advertisements for Cocaine or Marijuana, yet they are widely used within society.
Furthermore, there has been a heavy reduction in cigarette ads in the past decade, and even harsher regulations against ads targeting young people. Yet the smoking rate for young females has increased dramatically. How do you explain that?
I don't smoke, and I dislike second-hand smoke. I would be very happy if everyone voluntarily quit smoking tomorrow. However, I don't believe it's my right to step on other people's choices just because I don't like it. Before I'll cross that line I need to see proof that they infringing on my rights in some way. In the meantime, I'll just be tolerant, and exercise my right to take my business to places that reflect my taste. If a card room opens up a non-smoking room, they've got my business. But I'd fight tooth and nail to prevent it from becoming law.
Do you have some Public Health background Dan?
Not really. It's just one of the myriad of subjects that has grabbed my interest over time.
Briefly, there are data showing very potent carcinogens in side stream smoke (SSS). Weiseburger, Hoffman, Steve Hecht and a number of good scientists have unquestionably found nitroso compounds unique to tobacco. Is there a correlation with cancer? I do not know, but if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck then it probably is a duck. The argument for tobacco's is "because it is a tradition" are words from the tobacco industry itself. The "freedom to choose" bullshit argument is as lame as the right to bear arms crap we hear from the gun sellers. It'sa about MONEY. period. If tobacco were introduced into the marketplace today, it would be illegal. Advertising and smoking go hand in hand. We must be reading different literature. Cut out advertising and smoking among adolescents will plummet. Do you think there as many people who smoke pot and do blow equals the number who smoke? I doubt it. The advertising has been taken off TV, but advertising has been directed at the youth. They pass out packs of cigarettes at rock concerts and on streeet corners. Magazines are full of yoputh directed advertising. Tobacco industry is tough, dedicated and highly skilled at making you think they care about your health. Lets say that SSS does not cause cancer directly, but a poker dealer is subjected to smoke for 35-40 hrs per week and it causes him or her to have asthma attacks or sever congestion and makes him/her more susceptable to infection. Do you think that his or her rights are abridged? I have no objection to people smoking outside or in their own homes. I object to people smoking next to me and me getting the smoke in my face and lungs. How would they like it if I farted constantly while sitting next to them? Farts don't cause cancer do they? But they sure are annoying.
We do have a right to bear arms. Ever seen the constitution? In fact, guns actually save lives and result in less crime. I know you cant beleive this but its been proven time and again. Just like the environmentalists, the gun control idiots are incapable of seeing reality behind all the drama.
The smoke or the farts?
Ivan, the "Consitutional right to bear arms" is so full of shit that it is not worth comment. Just a question here: Do you think guns in the hands of everyday citizens have prevented more crimes, or do you think that guns in the hands of kids and criminals have killed more people than the "good guys" with guns have saved?
If you want to convince me of that, give me some proof. I just don't believe you.
Andy.
Look up the study conducted by John Lott. I forget the name of the book, but its pretty much a slam dunk in favor of conealed carry rights.
Thanks, I will try to find it. But I will take a lot of convincing.
Andy.
Lott detailed his study in a book called, "More Guns, Less Crime." He is an economist, and his study was over over 3000 different counties in the U.S., and found a statistically valid relationship between the introduction of concealed-carry laws and a reduction in crime.
Here are a couple of interesting links:
John Lott on The Effects of Gun Control
Media Bias in the Gun Control Debate
"...pretty much a slam dunk in favor of conealed carry rights."
Saudi Arabia has about zero crime, to speak of: you steal, they cut off your arm; you for-ni-cate with thy neighbor's wife, you're both stoned to death. Talk about deterrence!
When everyone's packing, it follows that, relatively to the past, incidents of violent crimes between strangers drop in number. (Note that, in America, the rate of violent incidents between strangers is already tops, relatively to the rest of the OECD countries.) If this kind of deterrent is what's needed, then American society is in pretty bad shape.
However, what gun advocates fail to address is this: the wide availability of hand guns causes accidents and violent crimes between family members, neighbors and acquaintances, at a rate which literally places the United States off the chart, compared with any civilized country in the world you care to mention. It's really very simple: in the rest of the world, many more arguments/differences/fights, etc tend to be resolved this way or that, but in any case without anyone having the chance to do something irreparable.
That statistic is not clear either. If you track suicide rates among developed nations, the availability of guns does not seem to correlate. The number of GUN suicides is much higher in countries with liberal gun laws, and this is what the media tends to report as 'proof' that availability of guns leads to more suicides. But in other nations, people just choose different ways to kill themselves.
Then we come to accidental deaths. According to John Lott, do you know how many children under 10 were killed accidentally by guns last year? 44. Twice as many drowned in 5-gallon buckets of water. But you'd never know that from the hysterical propaganda you get from the media and groups like Handgun Control Inc., would you?
Other studies have shown that a gun in the home is more than three times likely to be used to deter a crime than to be used against a family member. The numbers you've seen that show otherwise are almost hysterically cooked. For example, one statistic uses 'gun deaths' to show that you are more likely to be killed by a gun in your own house than you are to kill a burglar. But that's a ridiculous measure, because it's very rare that you actually kill the burglar. More likely, the mere brandishing of a gun will cause the intruder to flee, or shots will be fired without fatal effect. A more accurate measure would be lives saved by deterring criminals vs lives taken accidentally, and that ratio shows that owning a gun makes you safer. The ratio is especially high for people living in high crime districts and for females. The poor black single mother living across from a crack house is much, much safer if she owns a gun. Too bad people like that don't have much political clout.
BTW, did you notice that Rosie O'Donnell, one of the chief opponents of handguns, has hired an armed bodyguard for HER kid? I guess it's okay for her, because she's one of the special people that can do what they want. The rest of us can go to hell.
"...hysterical propaganda from the media and groups like Handgun Control Inc. ... The numbers you've seen that show otherwise are almost hysterically cooked."
My statistics are not cooked; the gun lobby statistics are cooked. But this is futile; this argument is beyond numbers because no side will admit to anything that does not support its view.
"Did you notice that Rosie O'Donnell, one of the chief opponents of handguns, has hired an armed bodyguard for HER kid? I guess it's okay for her, because she's one of the special people that can do what they want. The rest of us can go to hell."
It is my contention that gun proponents and manufacturers have entered nirvana sometime ago and are coasting ever since. The people are caught in a vicious circle: it has come to the point where a citizen cannot afford NOT to carry! 'Cause it sure looks like everyone else does! Some kind of critical mass must've been reached, to make an unarmed citizen feel, as the movie cliché goes, "naked".
That's not really the point I'm addressing. It may well be safer for an individual to carry a gun _given that so many others are as well_ . Given that there are already so many guns in circulation in the US it could well be that increasing the number of guns may decrease crime. But not to the extent it would be decreased if there weren't so many guns in the first place.
Andy.
But what evidence do you have of that? Canada has many, many guns. Our gun laws were about as Lax as yours up until about 20 years ago. Canada has a strong 'gun culture' just like the U.S. Almost everyone I know has a rifle or pistol of some sort. Yet our crime rate has always been much lower.
Switzerland has more firearms than you can imagine. Every male has to do a stint in the military, and the majority of them are required by law to take their assault weapons home and store them as a part of the citizen militia. Yet the crime rate is extremely low.
Guns are quite rare in Russia, yet the violent crime rate is huge.
There just doesn't seem to be a correlation. The high crime rate in the U.S. has more to do with the drug war, gang culture, and racial tension. If you pick a demographic area in the U.S. that matches one in Canada, you see similar crime rates.
Dan, I think we've been through this before, in another forum, but what the hell...
"The high crime rate in the U.S. has more to do with the drug war, gang culture, and racial tension. If you pick a demographic area in the U.S. that matches one in Canada, you see similar crime rates."
Crime, in general, has to do with many factors, most of which are of social nature, including cultural ones. While you may be right that there's no correlation between crime rates and gun ownership, there's similarly no evidence of gun ownership being a deterrent to crime. Not outside the minds and pamphlets of the NRA, that is.
"Canada has many, many guns. Our gun laws were about as Lax as yours up until about 20 years ago. Canada has a strong 'gun culture' just like the U.S. Almost everyone I know has a rifle or pistol of some sort. Yet our crime rate has always been much lower."
Again, look for social clues, for the explanation. And some historical ones, for that matter.
"Switzerland has more firearms than you can imagine. Every male has to do a stint in the military, and the majority of them are required by law to take their assault weapons home and store them as a part of the citizen militia. Yet the crime rate is extremely low."
Switzerland has a regular People's Army. Every male, after completing his obligatory military service, is being given a regulation rifle and is going to be called every year for military exercises, lasting days, until he's very old.
These guns are incredibly tightly regulated by the Swiss state! The state keeps psychological profiles of the owners, checks up on their safe storage and fair use, and imposes very severe penalties and prison terms for any use whatseoever ourtside their stated purpose: to train in preparation of defending Switzerland against an invasion. (Don't laugh! The Swiss have been, historically, a nation of mercenaries)
You might say that the 14th Amendment has found its true implementation only in Switzerland much more than in the U.S. : a well-regulated, people's militia, indeed.
"Guns are quite rare in Russia, yet the violent crime rate is huge."
Yet again, the reasons are social: Russkies have taken capitalism to heart; everyone for himself + the Mob.
"There just doesn't seem to be a correlation."
Ah, but there IS a straight, direct and logarithmic correlation between the numbers of accidental deaths & gun-related violent crimes between friends, acquaintances and family members and the number of handguns in circulation in any given country. Factor in the level of laxity of gun laws and you will have the often-seen but usually ignored charts of all those stats in the OECD countries: The United States shoots off the chart completely! Number One, with a bullet...
I think we're agreeing when we say that violence level in a society are generally caused by social factors. However, you say that there is no evidence that ownership of guns decreases crime, "Outside the minds and pamphlets of the NRA". Have you read the Lott study? It shows a statistically significant correlation between gun ownership and reduction in crime in the U.S. I have never heard a credible refutation of the study. I've heard a lot of ad hominem attacks on Lott himself, but not a peep on the substance of the study.
The only arguement presented by the tobacco industry FOR smoking is that "it is traditional". That's it.
The only definitive test with enough power to control for all the environmental variables would be to separate twins at birth and subject 1 to 2nd hand smoke and the other not. Sounds stupid, right. Well, that is about the only thing tobacco industry would accept as evidence.
The solution to the tobacco problem is simple. Allow all those who smoke to continue and not tax the cigarettes any more that they are, but ALL advertizing for tobacco products MUST be banned. No advertizing of any sort. If that were the case,I believe smoking would almost disappear in 5 years.
Posted by: Ivan Putski
Posted on: Monday, 5 June 2000, at 8:52 p.m.
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Posted on: Monday, 5 June 2000, at 9:28 p.m.
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Posted on: Monday, 5 June 2000, at 11:28 p.m.
Posted by: Ivan Putski
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Posted on: Tuesday, 6 June 2000, at 12:03 a.m.
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Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
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Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
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Posted by: Dan Hanson (danhanson@home.com)
Posted on: Sunday, 11 June 2000, at 3:59 a.m.
I happen to have a copy of some actual reports by the Surgeon General and other groups. I will now quote a few relevant passages.
From the "THE HEALTH CONSEQUENCES OF INVOLUNTARY SMOKING", a report of the Surgeon General, 1986, U.S DEPT. OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL:
(The collaboration of scientists and experts is described in detail including reviews by non-U.S. scientists prior to final assembly of information. This process, described in detail in the report, even includes reviewing studies for their validity, and strongly appears to be truly objective and structured in such a way as to result in an impartial review and assembly of findings through the use of various non-affiliated peer reviews both inside and outside the U.S.)
"This report examines in detail the scientific evidence on involuntary smoking as a potential cause of disease in nonsmokers."...
"Although the risks of involuntary smoking are smaller than the risks of active smoking, the number of individuals injured by involuntary smoking is large in both absolute terms and in comparison with the number injured by some other agents in the general environment that are regulated to curtail their potential to cause human illness."...
"The data presented in this Report establish that a substantial number of the lung cancer deaths that occur among nonsmokers can be attributed to involuntary smoking."...
"Environmental tobacco smoke can be a substantial contributor to the level of indoor air pollution concentrations of respirable particles, benzene, acrolein, N-nitrosamine, pyrene, and carbon monoxide."...
"Both mathematical modeling techniques and experimental data suggest that 10 to 20 percent of the particulate fraction of sidestream smoke would be deposited in the airway."...
I think the issue has already been proven. You don't. Let me pose a question and we will even give you the benefit of the doubt and an incredible advantage by assuming that it *has not* been proven (although it really has):
Given that:
1. Direct smoking contains many toxic compounds that make it "the largest single preventable cause of death and disability for the U.S population" (from above report; BTW, even the tobacco companies have now been forced to concede this point)
2. Secondhand smoke is frequently in sufficient concentration to cause immediate adverse physiological responses in many people, such as irritation of mucus membranes, congestion, etc.
Doesn't it seem at this point that the burden of proof should be on the indoor public smokers?
You know it's killing you. You know it burns other persons' eyes, causes us nasal congestion and throat irritation, etc. You prove it isn't killing us.
household radon kills, three mile island resulted in many health problems, DDT is deadly, the globe is worming, bio-engineered crops will devastate the environment, cyclamates, DES, Nitrites, Red Dye #2,Love Canal, Alar, cell phones, EMF's, the list goes on forever. There have been a million unfounded health scares that had some element of proof. Scientists profit heavily every time they come up with some new health scare. They do whatever they can to find them. ETS is just another scare. The studies suggesting ETS is a hazard have been refuted many times over by real scientists. Please visit www.junkscience.com for the details.
I don't see where it has been refuted, only debated and dragged into the courts. I don't see anything at all attempting to refute the facts presented in the 1986 report of the Surgeon General, cited in my post "Some Real Facts".
I also don't see where you have addressed the question of why at this point you feel the burden of proof should still be on the non-smokers.
If you want to put a highly toxic substance into the indoor air, WHICH KILLS OVER 300,000 USERS A YEAR, and which burns the eyes and irritates the mucus membranes of many people, and then you tell us it's safe, then YOU should at least have to prove to US that it is safe.
That smokers should feel that the burden of proof at this point should rest on the non-smoker is the most asinine, self-centered and ridiculous position that I have ever seen in my life.
Fortunately the tide has turned, and the majority (non-smokers) are realizing that they no longer have to be victimized by smokers (the minority)if they will just stand up and make their voices heard.
Scientists profit heavily every time they come up with some new health scare.
Don't we wish this were true. It ain't.
Ivan, I think you are in denial.
Dan,
When I had time for rgp I avoided these discussions since they were often so inane. But your posts above are incredibly insightful. I am in complete agreement with you on this issue (BTW, I don't smoke).
There is no question the EPA and FDA cook the books on these studies. They want to expand their power base. And just because the tobacco industry has been disingenuous on the health effects of smoking, it does not follow that they are on the wrong side about second hand smoke.
When I worked at Hughes Aircraft Company in the eighties, I would sometimes spend lunch in the library catching up on the latest in the missile and bomb business (as my ex-wife liked to call it). Anyway, they had a lot of magazines for statisticians, which drew my interest due to their connection to poker. Some of these covered early studies on second hand smoke.
I remember the gist of one of the major studies of the time. If you were married to a smoker, your life expectancy was something like 80 days less than if you were not. So this was extrapolated to infer that in a population of 260 million Americans, there were about 30,000 life's lost to second hand smoke (by accumulating the 80 day chunks into the average lifespan and making some assumptions about exposure).
One problem was that smoking was also an indicator of income. When both man and wife smoke in a marriage, they had (on the average of course) a significantly lower income than those that didn't . When one smoked the income difference was in the middle.
Now if you isolated income, the difference in longevity was measured in years, not days. The analysis was that the data was inconclusive and probably due to other factors.
Anyway, that is my two cents for now.
Regards,
Rick
Dan,
In todays paper it was noted that Japan has the highest longevity in the world (the United States was about 26th, and who would remember Canada ;-). Japan also has the highest rate of smoking in the world and few laws against second hand smoke (this part I heard on respected Los Angeles talk show host Dennis Prager).
I don't doubt that smoking is bad for you. But there are many factors that increase or decrease longevity. For example:
Who is more likely to exercise, smokers or non smokers?
Who is more likely to eat well, smokers or non smokers?
Who is more likely to see a Doctor when they have a problem, smokers or non smokers?
Who is more likely to drink heavily, smokers or non smokers?
Regards,
Rick
Rick,
I agree Dan takes a logical approach. I believe he is a scientist or an up and coming one. I must admit I might have made those same arguments when I was in my 20's, but now I think I have a clearer picture of what is happening. I cannot describe in a few words, but suffice it to say that when all the evidence is weighed and the EPA's bs is cleared away and the tobacco bs has gone up in smoke, our future generation will discover that smoking in any form is bad and kills people.
When I was a kid, I smoked because the ads told you it was good. Menthol cigarettes were "soothing" to the throat as the apparent doctors told us in their white coats on the backs of magazines.
Consider this: who has the most to gain from smoking vs the most to gain from non-smoking? Here the tobacco lobby looses big if smoking is curtailed. We won't be fooled again.
I'm not arguing that cigarette smoking is good for you. I'm not even arguing that second-hand smoke is harmless. What I am arguing is that second-hand smoke, with evidence collected to date, is not a serious public health concern, and therefore should not be the target of public health laws that seriously restrict the rights of people.
I've already said that I don't like second-hand smoke. I don't like the way my clothes smell after a night in a smoky card room. If I'm wearing contacts, my eyes will start burning much sooner if I'm around tobacco smoke. I'd much rather play in an environment without smoke.
HOWEVER, that does not make it right to ban public smoking. Public health policy is not supposed to be an instrument of social change, to eradicate society of habits that those in power don't like. Public health policy is simply supposed to protect the public health.
The problem with accepting the EPA's report at face value is that the EPA is every bit as much motivated by ideology as are the tobacco companies. Since about 1990, the EPA has been a radical organization run by people who would think nothing of twisting scientific results if they thought the cause was 'right'. That's one reason the EPA left a major study out of their 'meta-study' of second-hand smoke research. If they had included it, the overall result would have been inconclusive. So they cherry-picked the data. Then they still came up with inconclusive data, so they lowered the confidence interval from 95% to 90%. I hope many of those reading this recognize the incredibly bad methodology of changing your confidence interval AFTER you have analyzed your data, in order to lower the noise floor and extract the spikes that rise above that arbitrary threshold.
So trust not in big tobacco OR big government. Do you own research. Look at all the studies that have been done, and you'll find that the majority of them have been inconclusive, and the ones that have shown an effect have found it only by eliminating all samples except those in the absolute highest-exposure categories (i.e. non-smokers who live with a smoker AND work as a waitress in a smoky bar, who MAY have a slight increase in risk).
And if there is a tiny increase in risk, that still has to be measured against other risks that we incur daily, before we decide to launch a major public-health offensive. You cannot eliminate risk. You can only strike a reasonable balance between freedom and risk.
Later tonight, I'll post a list of various risks, and show how second-hand smoke might measure up, EVEN IF the EPA is correct. You'll be surprised.
Definitely appreciate your efforts. TY Dan
Sounds like a mere editorial or opinion column to me.
The report I cite in my post below, "Some Real Facts", is not just some columnist's views.
Facts, opinions, lies...whatever! I think I speak for most non-smokers in our disgust that we have to breathe an annoying stream of smoke. We are annoyed that is manages to make us smell like a smoldering ashtray in just half an hour. We hate the fact that our eyes burn and we can't see straight after much exposure to smoke. We all feel the reduction in lung capacity that is clearly proven. Most of all we hate our rights to clean air being trampled by a small minority of all poker players and that we are given no alternative because the casino doesn't want to trample on a few toes. Face it, on a poker table at Bellagio, 2 smokers is about the norm and 4 is pretty high. Even with 4, thats a minority of players at a table, yet Bellagio like all other rooms REFUSES to even allow for a non-smoking table. Whether it gives us lung cancer or not is really not my main concern. Yes its a factor that must be considered and just maybe is our biggest ally in curbing second hand smoke. I just want to be able to play a game or go to a bar free from the annoying side effects of someone else's filthy habit, pure and simple, and I am absolutely certain I am not alone in desiring this above any concerns about possible lung cancer.
On another note, don't you think its hypocritical for almost every major casino to set aside some slot areas and some table games for non-smokers, yet refuse to do the same thing for poker players? It just amazes me when I read stuff on this "due to player demand, the (fill in the casino name) has set aside X tables for our patrons that desire a non-smoking environment" I would bet that FAR more patrons would request this in the poker room than anywhere else, yet probably don't due to repeated brush-offs by management. On a whim a few months back I took the back of two pieces of paper and created a quick write-up asking for half of a particular room to be declared non-smoking. Nothing all that serious when you consider that most people were not smokers. I got 62 signatures in about 30 mins. Many smokers gave me dirty looks, but almost all non-smokers were more than willing to sign it. I took it to the director of the room who was on duty at the time and he said he would take it into consideration. No doubt it ended up in the trash shortly thereafter, but at least I did my part. In reaction to that, I began my no toking policy that so many people found so heinous. So you all cannot say I didn't try to do things the old fashioned way.
I've got no problem with your attempts to use market forces to get the casinos to comply with what you want. More power to you. If you want to organize a strike against the cardrooms until they allow a no-smoking table, I'll join you. I hate second-hand smoke.
But you cross a pretty major line when you use the force of the government to put a gun to someone's head and demand that they provide a poker room that YOU like. In a free country, your power of choice means you don't have to play poker, or you can start your own non-smoking cardroom, or you can organize a boycott of smoking rooms. What you shouldn't be able to do is use the government as an instrument of force to get what you want.
One day, you may find that some outraged citizens think they have a right to a poker-free city, because a bunch of propaganda and poor studies have shown that poker rooms bring crime and vice into the area. And you know, for a good god-fearin' conservative Christian, poker rooms and casinos are a blight on the land that destroy lives, create alcoholism (a PUBLIC HEALTH problem!), and interfere with their desire to not have to live in the vicinity of such a den of sin.
If that day comes, you better not try and stand on your rights as a free citizen, because you'll have already agreed to give those up so your clothes aren't smelly.
It seems that most of the controversy over the 1993 EPA study swirls around their figure of 3,000 people a year killed by secondhand smoke. That figure is less than 1% of the well-accepted, non-controversial figure of over 300,000 (yes, that's right) people a year in the U.S killed by smoking itself. Even Big Tobacco has accepted THIS figure. Now let me ask you a couple of questions.
Is it reasonable to believe that since smoking itself kills over 300,000 people a year, that secondhand smoke just might POSSIBLY kill 3,000, a figure less than 1% of those who die from smoking itself? How about a "mere" 300 people a year, a figure less than 1/10 of 1% of the people killed every year by direct smoking?
Is it reasonable to ask non-smokers to take it on faith that nobody will be killed by secondhand smoke? Is it reasonable to assume that if the smoke in the room is in high enough concentration to cause burning of the eyes, throat irritation and congestion in many people, that this known highly toxic substance might also be affecting the body in more insidious ways? Is it reasonable to assume that it won't?
Finally, is it reasonable for smokers to inflict this unpleasant, toxic, high-risk substance upon others in an indoor environment? Or is it just plain selfish and damn inconsiderate?
Finally, is it reasonable to put the rights of people to indulge in a harmful substance above the rights of others to not have this substance forced upon them?
People are finally waking up and doing something about it. Thank goodness.
Harmful customs, if continued, become mere backwardness. Fools stay in denial for a very long time.
You know, to find answers to questions like that we have a great tool. It's called science. Why not try it?
But to answer your rhetorical question... If we took 300 million people, and gave them each a lethal dose of radiation, we'd have 300 million deaths.
So... If we give the same people 1/10,000 of a lethal dose of radiation, 30,000 people should die, right? By your logic?
I hope you are reading this from a dozen feet or so away from your monitor.
You missed the point so completely I'm not even sure how to respond.
I am not saying that you can calculate deaths like that. I'm saying it should not be *surprising* if secondhand smoking kills 1% or 1/10 of the people direct smoking kills.
It is surprising that you or anybody else would assume it is safe until proven dangerous. Given the history and makeup of cigarette smoke, wouldn't it make a helluva lot more sense to assume it is dangerous until proven safe?
Speaking of science, so far I am the only one who has provided anything at all scientific in this debate. I don't hear anyone attempting to refute the facts I cited from the 1986 Report of the Surgeon General in my post, "Some Real Facts."
Maybe that's because there aren't any facts to back up your claim that secondhand smoke is safe.
You guys don't have a logical leg to stand on. I am either arguing with nitwits or with people so emotionally attached to one side that they are unable to view the facts or the overall situation in an objective manner. Or with both.
Not only am I the only one who has presented any facts in this debate, but nobody has even attempted to address or refute with the facts which I have presented. The scientific facts speak for themselves. All you guys are doing is spouting opinions and rhetoric. You have completely failed to address this issue on a factual basis, yet you talk about science. You have not even presented one logical argument, and you have been entirely unable to respond to the logical problems with your position that I have pointed out.
I have done my part in this debate. I will not waste further time arguing with people who will neither present facts, nor attempt to refute the facts I have presented, nor answer questions I have presented, nor address the obvious illogical holes in their positions when pointed out. It doesn't matter to me for what reason you are irrational--I will not waste further time with you in this thread. Goodbye.
M, you are talking to a wall as you are well aware. but good try. if they were arguing that the business has the right to decide then thats at least a valid point. but businesses are public places and they need to be free from health hazards. if its peoples right to smoke in public then its also maybe a right to be able to spray lysol in their faces back at them. or is it ok to sneeze in someone face. its impossible that second hand smoke isnt a health hazard. the question is how much of a hazard it is. i think alot as most of my card playing friends are now dead. smokers and non alike. the smokers went much quicker though.
Well put, Ray.
As long as there are smokers, I will have a job since I am in health care (research) and cancer in general although not connected to smoking. Anyone who believes that smoking anything in any form is not a health hazard or at least a health risk is a fool. The arguements about cars killing more people..blah, blah and that crap about freedom is bullshit too. If you want to smoke, go ahead but in your own space that does not infringe on my freedom not to add anymore risk to my already risky lifestyle (I drive a car and live in the city). Enough said by me. Advocates for "freedom" are terribly misinformed or simply argumentative. Get some therapy and get real.
that crap about freedom is bullshit too.
Or maybe we're just principled. One of the most disheartening trends in our society today is that people make an immediate connection between something they don't like, and a government solution. Every perceived societal problem requires a new law. Wearing seatbelts is a good idea, so let's make it law! Smoking is bad for you, so let's make it illegal, or at least use the government as a hammer by taxing the bejeezus out of it. Then one day, the activists come after an activity that YOU hold dear, but you've already given up all your principles to get the government to put a gun to the heads of the people doing things you don't like, so you're out of luck.
You do realize that the same arguments used here against second-hand smoke are virtually identical to the arguments anti-gambling activists use to ban gambling, aren't you? They claim that gambling is destructive to society, that it is damaging not just to the gambler but to his family and friends, that it breeds crime, which hurts innocent people, etc.
How do you respond to them? What possible justification can you offer to protect a casino in the face of those arguments, if 'that crap about freedom is bullshit'?
If a gambler's family is hurting, it is not being hurt by the gambling, but by the gambler himself. Or, put another way, I am not hurting the family when I play poker with this guy, he's doing it to them himself. When he commits a crime to get money to spend on gambling, it is not a harm directly caused by the casino, but a harm caused by the gambler.
But, when I smoke, I am directly impacting the other person who is within reach of that smoke. I don't care to discuss whether it hurts them or not, as I've not read any of the relevant papers or otherwise educated myself. Let's just say that to the extent it is a harm, it is a direct harm.
My general philosophy is that everyone should be able to do pretty much anything they want that does not DIRECTLY harm somebody else. Admittedly, there will be some issues where it is debatable whether a harm is direct or indirect (I'm a lawyer, so I know, there are always borderline or otherwise debatable issues). In fact, I've had people tell me that when the gambler robs to fuel his addiction, it is a direct harm caused by gambling. However, they are merely misunderstanding the difference between direct harm and but-for causality. BTW, there is a HUGE difference.
However, Dan, I do agree with the principle that you shouldn't regulate away what someone else wants to do, and then expect that the same thing won't happen to you in a truly analogous situation. I mean, if I regulate away your right to drink alcohol because of the cost to society, then I shouldn't be surprised when the same thing happens to my gambling. However, I don't think that the analogy from gambling to indoor-smoking is as correct.
Also, to any who might refute me (and I'm sure I'm wrong about something), don't forget that it will be easy to come up with specific examples where what I've said is clearly wrong. Unfortunately, the devil truly is in the details, and no matter what you're trying to do, there will always be exceptions, or the rule you're enforcing will be overbroad. The question is how do you deal with this problem, not how do you avoid it (it's unavoidable as far as I know).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Gambling is a recreational activity for most people.
When an activity is optional, it is especially troublesome when government starts to regulate it. If I want to attend motocross races, I have to understand that the noise level may get high enough to damage my hearing. If that's acceptable to me, I'll go. If not, I won't. It's unreasonable to start going, then demand that the government 'do something' about the noise.
In the case of optional activities, regulation should be left to the marketplace. Thus I heartily endorse WildBill's attempts to use market solutions to fix the problem.
Here in Edmonton, we've got several very vocal players who are against second-hand smoke (I'm one of them), and we've tried to organize non-smoking games. They never last. The problem is that the types of players you want in the game are very likely to be the ones who want to smoke, so imposition of a non-smoking rule wrecks the game. Such is life. It would be outrageous of me to try and get a weak player into the game so I can take his money, then lobby the government to hold a gun to his head and prevent him from smoking, because -I- don't like it.
Anyway, the fact that non-smoking cardrooms have been tried and generally fail indicates to me that there simply isn't enough market demand for it (i.e. people may not like second hand smoke, but they'd rather play in a smokey game with a few live ones than a clear air game full of rocks). If that's the case, then that's all the more reason to keep government out of it.
Government solutions should be implemented only when there is a clear market failure as in technical monopolies, area effects like factory pollution, and the like. But a casino is an enclosed space, and there is plenty of competition. Why doesn't a casino with a declining card room institute a non-smoking policy and publicise the hell out of it? If smoking is such a problem, wouldn't all you guys flock to it, and make the cardroom owners more money?
Factory pollution can also be handled by the free market just like anything else. There is no need for government command and control. See the book titled: "Chemicals, Cancer, and Choices: Risk Reduction Through Markets". You can get it at www.cato.org.
Yes, lots of factory pollution issues can be handled by the market. But if it turned out that some couldn't, I can at least conceptually agree that there might be a role for government. That's much harder to do when we're talking about the interior spaces of a casino or a nightclub.
Dan, I know little about motocross racing, but I would be surprised to learn that the only reason the bikes are loud is tradition. It probably either costs money to reduce the noise, or it reduces the speed of the bike, either of which may be unacceptable to the racer.
Thus, when you choose to go to the race, you are choosing to subject yourself to a direct harm that is, to a degree, a requirement of the activity.
There is no connection between poker (gambling) and smoking, other than the connection that some people like to do both at the same time. However, telling the players not to smoke has NO DIRECT impact on their ability to gamble.
Anyway, let's assume I'm wrong. Let's pretend that motocross racers make their vehicles loud on purpose, because some of the fans like it that way. Just like some gamblers like to be able to smoke. Let's further assume that even though this analogy is perfect, I still think that it would be wrong to require motocross racers to quiet their bikes, i.e., that I think that would-be fans who don't like the noise can take it as is or leave it. Just because there is an exception to my theory doesn't mean it's a bad model, just that it won't be 100% applicable to every situation. This isn't science, and models don't have to be perfect to be the best there is (or maybe will ever be). Given the vagaries of humanity, I don't think you can possibly derive a model on any issue that doesn't fail in some (real) situations.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
In the above post Dan refers to the "fact" that non-smoking cardrooms generally fail.
As the rest of us probably know, last winter the Taj in Atlantic City took the bold step of being the first casino in AC to implement a Non-Smoking Policy in the entire poker room. I read in the Card Player that according to Poker Room Manager Tom Gitto, their subsequent business actually rose--I believe the figure quoted was a 15% increase..
The California casinos are doing just fine non-smoking, as are now Foxwoods and the Mohegan Sun doing fine. Even many of the smoking patrons back here in the East say they actually like it better now.
Apparently Dan doesn't seem to understand that a fact is not that which appears to make sense to him, but that which actually is.
I thought I was done with this thread. It is gard to continue arguing with people who ignore the facts I have presented.
It is even harder to sit idly by while they spout falsehoods and call them facts.
Somehow I'm not surprised.
"Also, to any who might refute me "
Refute you me boy! Now why in de woild would anybody seek to do that son. Will ya tell me! A lawyer, now, well blimey. Shulda knowed by da way you put all dem fancy words in the right order. You a fine talkin boy too. If I do say so myself. Fossilman they call ya. Do they? Now what kinda name is Fossilman.? Ancestry I mean. Are you from the Emerald Island, maybe. Aye, bet an old salt like yourself has seen many of the inside of them swingin singin pubs in Kilarney now aven't ya boy. Fossilman. Sounds like an old man's nickname or mayb your lawyerin is with some old foggies. Good money there I bet.
Now what's all this silly nonsense bout smokin and gamblin and the like. Next thing we know you'll be wantin to ban good old hoochie koochien down there in the waterfront pubs. Heaven forbid. It's the only place old foggies like me and me buddy David can get any. If you know what I mean boy. Now, you be a good little boy an stop all the fussin. Get ye to a nunnery and sleep it off. Gotta go smoke some hashhish!
See Ya.
vince.
Dan, I have said the same things you are saying some years ago, but I have changed my mind. Most leglislation proposed to ban smoking is really a sincere health issue and not about money. I think that there is certainly too much gov't intereference. Seatbelt laws and requiring helmets for motorcycles are good ideas, but should be left to the individuals. Smoking in "closed" public places should be banned. Anyone who believes it is not harmful is a fool. Beef, and milk may be harmful too but at least there is some upside to the risk. I cannot really figure any upside to smoking--none at all. For some to argue that smoking helps aleviate stress is not valid. The only stress smoking aleviates is the stressed caused by smoking (i.e. being stressed to get a nicotine fix is aleviated by smoking). Most of the other risky things like McDonald's hamburgers (just ask the Japanese), and cereal with bugs in it are not addictive. Coffee may be but has gotten a clean bill of health from AARC and IARC. Risk and addiction are terrible bed partners.
To say that smoking has 'no benefits' is not a reasonable statement. It has a benefit in that people like to do it. And it's not just a matter of the evil tobacco companies using advertising to hook us all. Smoking is a universal human behaviour that you'll find in every society, including isolated tribal cultures that each picked it up on their own.
Clearly, smoking fulfills some human need. There has been a lot of research to discover just what that need may be, but I'll give you a strong possibility:
Nicotine is a stimulant. As such, it helps the brain to focus and concentrate. For some people, this effect is much stronger than others. Are you familiar with Attention Deficit Disorder? The increase in diagnoses of ADD correlates fairly strongly with a decrease in smoking in our society. And guess what ADD is treated with? Stimulants. It's entirely possible that many people smoke to self-medicate a problem with stimulant production in the brain, even if they don't know they are doing it. All they know is that a cigarette helps them focus, think clearly, adn calm down (in people with ADD, stimulants often have a sedating effect).
I'm not trying to claim that smoking is a good thing. It's clearly not. But if you want to understand it (and if you're a public health official you should), it's not reasonable to assume that every smoker is either duped or stupid.
I agree that one probably should determine what confidence limit one wants before the study, but how serious is the changing from p of 0.05 to 0.10 on a practical sense?
Suppose a group of 2000 non-smokers are randomly assigned to 2 equal groups. Group 1 subjected to cigarette smoke, and group 2 smoke-free environment. Assume there is some compound that can be measured in the blood or urine that is a good marker for DNA methylation which correlates well with tumors. Both groups have their blood/urine assayed for the marker before exposure and after. No difference between groups before, but a difference after. Say group 1 shows a mean of 50 units and group 2 shows a mean of 45 units (variances equal).
Clearly there is a numerical difference of 5. Group 2 is less, but statistically less? If we pick p=0.05, that says that the for the difference we found (namely 5 units there is a 5% chance that the difference of 5 is due to chance alone. If we pick p=0.10, then there is a 10% chance that the difference of 5 is significant. So whether the difference of 5 is either a 5% or 10% chance is really quite small. The issue is that there is a difference with the smoke exposed having more of the marker and that does suggest more risk.
If a value for p is calculated and turns out to be 0.048 does that mean absolutely reject the null hypothesis of no difference and a p = 0.51 means absolutely accept "no difference". It is all a matter of practical signifcance too.
The problem comes from the selectivity of the confidence interval after the fact. Take a graph of noisy data, and put a ruler across it 5% from the top. Add up the results and see if they indicate a trend. If not, start moving the ruler down, until the exposed data DOES indicate a trend. You may find something like this:
95% - no correlation 94% - slight positive 93% - slight negative 92% - slight positive 91% - slight positive 90% - stronger positive 89% - going back to even 88% - no correlation
By deciding after the fact which confidence interval to use, you can twist the data to make it fit what you want. If I want to make my win rate at poker look better than it is, I can start to eliminate the sessions that were 3 standard deviations out. If there were more losing than winning sessions, great. If not, I'll start taking out the 2 std swings. Etc.
You are mixing correlation with means testing; not what I meant, but your explanation is very good. Additionally, if one assumes a win/loss rate in poker follows a normal distribution (does it?) then one could use an outlier test to remove data 3 sd's away as long as it was done to both tails.
Edmundton? nice. Still at Caltech?
You lost me with that last reference. Caltech? Edmundton? I'm in Edmonton, Canada. Been out of school for 14 years.
The point I was making about selecting the confidence interval after the fact is that you can use it to manipulate the conclusion. If there is randomness in the data, then you will get different results depending on where you set the cut-off. It may be that I had two 3std losing sessions, and no 3std winning sessions. But I had a whole whack of winning sessions at 2.5 std, and hardly any losing sessions. So if I filter the data at 3 std, I'll see a higher win rate than I should. If I filter it at 2, I'll see a lower win rate. If I choose a confidence interval before I collect the data, that's fine, because the odds that there will be a skew above that level are equally good for either outcome. But if I'm allowed to move the cutoff limit to wherever I want AFTER the data is collected, I can produce whatever results you want to see, because the distribution of results will not be symmetrical at any arbitrary limit.
Another example of this type of thing is a criticism of John Lott's data on gun availability vs crime. One of his critics pointed out that if you took out the smallest districts AND the state of Florida, his results become inconclusive. That's fallacious thinking, because you can always come up with SOME subset of data that proves what you want, if you're allowed to pick and choose after the fact.
Wow, Dan, you started quite a thread. I don't know if anyone's still listening, but I'd like to make a couple of points as a scientist (Ph.D. in cell biology if it matters).
Point 1.
M's point about assuming ETS is not harmful versus assuming that it is harmful got glossed over much too quickly. You have assumed that because some studies didn't find very good evidence that second hand smoke causes cancer that it probably doesn't cause cancer (or at least not very much). In fact all it shows is that these studies didn't find very good evidence. It is actually incredibly difficult to try to prove a negative result in biology.
Or stated more simply. If I have a hypothesis A, I can try to design an experiment to test it. But usually my experiment will either prove A or fail to prove A - it will rarely disprove A.
Point 2.
It is generally accepted in the scientific community that ETS is probably harmful. It is also my opinion that it is more likely than not that ETS is harmful, quite possibly very harmful.
This means that:
a. Most scientists aren't interested in answering the question, because they think they already know the answer.
and
b. Getting funding to answer this question would be somewhat to very difficult because funding proposals are peer-reviewed and because of the preceding.
This means that it could be some time before this question get's definitively answered. This is not to say that no one is working on the question (I have no idea) but it's not a glamor job, that's for sure and the very best minds at Harvard are not slaving over the question.
How do you think public policy should be handled in a case like this? Wait for evidence that may never come while people possibly die? Or accept the consensus of the scientific community and act on it? But wait, it get's worse.
Point 3.
In a scientific study you can only get an answer to the question that you ask. It's possible (but as I already pointed out very difficult) to design a study that would answer the question once and for all, "Does ETS cause cancer or not and if so to what degree?" This would do nothing at all to answer the many other questions that are compelling, like "Does ETS":
And many many more questions besides. Each one requiring a distinct study. Each one time consuming. Each one difficult. Each one unbelievably expensive. Each one boring to most scientists. But any one of which would, with a positive result, prove that ETS is harmful. So "Point 2" is actually compounded by the fact that there are multiple questions.
If you wait until it's PROVEN that ETS is harmful, it could be too late. Thousands, hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people could have died or been severely impacted by it. Do you honestly think that public policy decisions about having known harmful chemicals blown in your face should be put off? Shouldn't the consensus of the scientific community count for something?
It took years and years of study to prove that smoking causes cancer to the degree that the tobacco companies finally had to admit that it was true. But the scientific community knew it much much earlier (as evidenced by the fact that very very few biologists smoke).
How much proof do you need about ETS? Is it rational to require that degree of proof when lives may be on the line?
Add in the fact that second hand smoke is unpleasant and it's a no-brainer, IMO. But that's just the icing, not the reason to change public policy.
David
David,
I too am a scientist (chemist/analytical/organic) and have had the pleasure of NIH support to investigate carcinogenesis via cell culture/animal models and finally with tumor markers in humans with respect to nitroso compounds (not the tobacco related nitroso compounds). Had the pleasure of working with Peter Magee a British Pathologist who pioneered the work. I agree with what you said and appreciate the way you said it.
Thanks ratso. It's good to know that there are some other poker playing biologists out there. For some reason most of the biologists I've known just haven't been game players.
David
There is no consensus on ETS. Those scientists that consider ETS a serious health risk are the same scientists that beleive that the earth is warming, that radon is a serious problem, that genetically modified crops should be banned, that bisphenol-A will disrupt the endocrine system, that there is a population problem, i could go on.
These people have an agenda. For whatever reason, they want these things to be true. Theyll push science aside and manipulate data to meet their ends. They cannot be trusted.
Of those 4 things you mentioned, I do not feel any one of them is a serious threat. I can see how someone like yourself is concerned with high doses of things like heavy metals and biphenyls in the workplace (eg. in factories where they make it) is a much more overt problem for an industrial toxicologist
There is no consensus on ETS. Those scientists that consider ETS a serious health risk are the same scientists that beleive that the earth is warming, that radon is a serious problem, that genetically modified crops should be banned, that bisphenol-A will disrupt the endocrine system, that there is a population problem, i could go on.
These people have an agenda. For whatever reason, they want these things to be true. Theyll push science aside and manipulate data to meet their ends. They cannot be trusted.
You can't be serious.
There IS a consensus on ETS, but please only poll the biologists who work on related subjects, not physicists who should be too smart to smoke (but aren't). And please don't assume that I have an opinion on global warming (that counts for anything) just because I'm a scientist. I know next to nothing about climatology. As for radon, let's just say I had my house tested before I bought it. I would eat most genetically modified crops, but I'd prefer to know what the modifications were before I ate them.
David
David
If we cannot for the most part trust mainstream scientist worldwide to conduct and report on studies in an impartial manner, Ivan, what group of scientists can we trust?
It is inacurrate to group ETS with all lesser environmental health-related issues.
ETS is not in the same group as hormones in milk, radon, etc.
Again, a quote from the Report of the Surgeon General, 1986:
"Although the risks of involuntary smoking are smaller than the risks of active smoking, the number of individuals injured by involuntary smoking is large in both absolute terms and in comparison with the number injured by other agents in the general environment that are regulated to curtail their potential to cause human illness." (emphasis mine)
In other words, many agents which do far less harm than ETS are already regulated.
*
are PUNKS!
As part of a wearisome thread on RGP, David apparently "conceeded" that Phil Hellmuth is a better ring game NLHE player than himself, one of ten he would actually name.
This rather surprised me, seeing DS place PH in the same class as Chan, Brunson, TJ, Hoff etc. He's certainly the first(other than Phil himself, of course :) ) to have done that. Tournaments absolutely, but in a ring game?
I was just guessing. Never played with him.
Well Hellmuth would rarely play in ring games of NL. Most ring games he plays are limit games, often mixed games. Its easy to see him steaming off and losing chips in limit games, especially mixed games, but I would think NLHE would most resemble a tournament game so he would most likely have a good shot at being a winner there too. Also when you are looking at a game involving the very best players, I would think Hellmuth would perform much better. From what I hear he gets most upset when a novice or player he doesn't know draws out on him in a bad situation. Hard for me to see him berate Chan and get upset at the way he plays. Besides why would the very best ever play this game anyways? NLHE would require a few rather live players to play along with this field for the game to go.
David, Phil, Chan, Huck, Seidel, BillM(fresh off a big tourney win!), and two rich guys who bought TJ's book last week, are playing $25 ante, $100-200 blinds NLHE. We each buy in for $25K. Who makes more in this game, David or Phil?
25K in this game? Well who cares, the game won't last long enough to make a good judgement on that. I suppose I like Hellmuth because I think NL is more of a feel game with picking off bluffs and running bluffs obviously much more important. In a limit game no doubt David wins, but in big bet poker, I have to think the solid technician that David is doesn't match up to the special game feel skills that Hellmuth (sometimes) shows. In either case, the game will only last as long as the new guys keep playing or have money.
Many posters here apparently define 'big slick' as any AK. In my town this is merely 'slick'. AK suited is BIG slick.
Thinking of going away this weekend, if I can find a good last minute package to somewhere where I can snorkle, sunbathe, and play holdem.... Any suggestions?
B$
In a garage filled with fifty three bicycles a man is found dead on the garage floor ......
how did he die.
too those who know the answer please dont post it...lets see the various answers...
jg
Actually, I didn't, but thought I'd do my part.
He died from laughing at Sklansky's answer!
Vince
Un--BEE--lievable
Paul I know that you know the answer. You better tell me what it is or I'm gonna kick your ass. BEE- what does that mean?
Vince
Ask Mr. Hoyle
ak
Let's see now. Hoyle, BEE, Bicycles, 53 Hmmm. Garage. O.K O.K. Bicycles, BEE, 53, Hoyle, Garage. I got it! I got it! The guy was a bee keeper for John Hoyle and got ran over by 53 bicycle riders from the Tour de France while they were making a pit stop in Ray Zee's garage. Wow that was hard! Thanks Paul. And who said cheaters never win?
Vince.
Vince,
Maybe, it was the extra Ace in the Deck?
of the bikes up his sleeve. but i can't figure out why the fact he is in a garage is an essential piece of information.
or it could have something to do with a national race. one bike from each state, plus the three pseudo-states. peurto rico, wash dc, and canada.
or maybe he just fell off of one of the bicycles and broke his neck.
the reason questions like this bug me is that there are so many answers that fit the information, but the only right one is the one that fits the information in a clever way.
scott
x
For you SF/Nor Cal people;-)
Hey, This post is very long and not very pertinent to anything in particular so if you have something better to do go and do it! I posted it beacause I like to see my name in lights!
Two Roads
I played in a 10 - 20 1/2 Kill Holdem game last Saturday. The game was good. So good that I lost $800 and won $853 for a 53 profit in a 4 hour period. I played a lot of hands. Well, I always play a lot of hands. That’s how I learned to play poker. It was an essay by Mason Malmuth that convinced me that learning to play poker by playing a lot of hands was right for me. I will admit that my hourly rate probably suffers because of my loose play. And my standard deviation, Forgettaboutit! But, what the hell, playing a lot is exciting and fun. It is also very stressful. The psychological highs and lows are like being on the proverbial roller coaster ride. Well anyway that’s the way I learned that’s the way I played last Saturday at Foxwoods.
Speaking of Foxwoods. There are two direct ways to get there from Amesbury MA, where I live. Both routes are just about 130 miles. Leaving Amesbury heading west you begin the trip on Interstate 495. At once you find yourself in a green garden. Trees, grass and shrubs surround the highway. The beginning of the highway is under construction, yet you would not notice it except for the yellow warning flashers scattered around alerting you to workers in the area. This part of 495 is a 3 lane highway that is never slowed by traffic. It is not until you reach Lowell, some 30 miles away, that you realize that you are in a highly industrialized state. Once you pass Lowell you are uninterrupted by civilization again until you pick up Interstate 290 about 35 miles further down the road. 290 is an exit off of 495 but it is not your normal exit where you pull off a ramp and wind around until you encounter a stop light or yield sign before proceeding. No exiting to 290 is like water flowing down a tributary from the main vein of a river. You just go with the flow. About ten miles more of country scenery brings you to the outskirts of Worcester, MA. Worcester is a pretty big City by Massachusetts standards and sometimes you meet a little traffic. But usually it is hardly noticeble. I do recall that on one trip 290 was blocked off at Worcester.. I had circle around and take the Mass pike. The next day I found out that the diversion was caused by a fire. A fire that claimed the lives of 6 brave firemen. Some of you may be familiar with that incident. A terrible tragedy. My little inconveince does not seem worth mentioning now except for the fact of it coinciding with this grave tragedy. After Worcester it is smooth sailing again for about 40 miles to exit 85 of route 395. Oh yeah if you blink you miss the transition from 290 to 395. There is no exit nor hassle About ten miles passed Worcester they change the route marker from 290 to 395 but considerately maintain the luscious green scenearay. What a country! You are now very close to Foxwoods But first you must traverse 10 miles of 2 lane country road. Funny but it seems that the closer you get to your goal regardless of what the endeavor the harder it gets to reach that goal. Just look what happened to Portland against the Lakers. Up 15 poinst in the fourth quarter and can’t finish. Hmmm. Makes you wonder. Well, even though those last ten miles are relatively slow, you still reach Foxwoods very relaxed and ready to pl;ay. Yes the 495 trip is a relatively smooth easy way of getting to Foxwoods.
The other way to go starts on route 95 south. Leaving Amesbury you immediately encounter a bridge that goes over the Merrimac river. It is as if the bridge is a harbinger of what lies ahead. It is a transfer from the quite serenity of southern Maine, Southeast New Hampshire and Northeast Massachusetts to the highly dynamic, jungle like atmosphere of the Metropolitan Boston area. It sort of screams, “hold on to your hat”, here we go! There is traffic regardless of the time of day. You can almost see the chekered flag as you enter the race. Your right foot heads straight for the floor. Soon you are out of the trees and shrubbery getting set to enter Route 1. Route 1 just might be the oldest major highway in the northeast. It is two lanes each way. However another six lanes each way would not help to tame the mobile metal beasts that rule this pathway. Both sides or the roadway are lined with commercial buildings and retail outlets including a giant Mall that begs you to stop and buy! Fast food restaurants scream at you from every juncture. You can almost hear the little chiuaha say “Drop the Chalupa” from the Taco bell that is near route 99. The roadway is uneven and hilly. Occaisional pot holes cause the traffic to move in an accordian like fashion.. Every car length is a struggle to overcome a different obstacle, from cars trying to cut in to 18 wheelers trying to cut out. On route one you know that you are alive.
Once you have successfully travelled route 1 you come face to face with the Tobin Bridge. The left field fence at Boston’s Fenway park is known affectionately among baseball fans as “the Green Monster”. But just ask a driver where the real green monster of Boston is and they will point you towards the Tobin Bridge. The Tobin Bridge built in the 50’s is a huge green structure of steel and concrete that stands hundreds of feet above Boston Harbor. It connects downtown Boston to the Northeast part of the State. I remember being afraid crossing this bridge when I was a child. I feel no safer as an adult. It brings to mind accounts of aging bridges falling all over other parts of the country. But Tobin is only the beginning! Once you pay your Bridge toll the real “trial by fire” begins. The gauntlet! If you can survive the gauntlet, Boston’s Southeast Expressway, you will be ready to fight Spartacus in the Roman Forum. Hail Caesar! Why a human being would voluntarily subject himself to the horrors of Boston traffic day in and day out is beyond my comprehension. Those of you familiar with Highway 405 in LA haven’t seen anything yet! After 40 minutes of fighting your way in and out of lanes through the little more than 1 mile from the Bridge to the Mass pike exit you finally see daylight. You are leaving Boston and god loves you! You are still alive!. Not too long after you are back on 95. For the next 30 miles you are surrounded by trees. But somethiing is wrong. You can’t relax. you refuse to let down your guard. You know that a scud missile could be coming out of those bushes at any time. You are sure that the trees camouflage the enemy. You won’t be fooled. The gauntlett does that to people. And it’s a good thing too. Because soon you are in Providence, RI. By now you are very close to being a psychological wreck. But at least you are alert from the gauntlett! You want to stop and rest but there is no place to stop! Once again you are shot right into the center of a hustling bustling metropolis with trucks and cars whizzing and squealing as they pass on the right. Then on the left! From behind you see approching messershmitts flashing their lights. You hear honking horns that are competing with blaring car stereos. They are all screaming at you! Get out of the way! And you react by pushing it up to75, then 80! Move it!
Thank heaven Providence is a small city and you are not there very long. But once out of Providence the roadway immediately narrows and is full of trucks. No relaxing here! There are police cruisers everywhere. And they are after you! You dutifully glue your eyes to the spedometer until you reach exit 92 in Connecticut. Safety! You can now make your way the last 12 or so miles to Foxwoods. That is, after contesting the final obstacle, a rotary out in the middle of nowhere, that they have thrown in your way, just to make sure you are still awake. By the time you get to your goal, Foxwoods Casino, you are ready for a triple Johnny Walker, Red. On the rocks! Then, a good night sleep to settle the nerves. You can play poker tommorrow!
Well, there you have it, two ways to get to Foxwoods. One slow and methodical, almost peaceful. The other rocky, full of obstacles and stressful, very stressfull. So, which road would you take?
I know that when I take the 95 route it reminds me of the way I learned to play poker. Lots of hands. Lots of action. Lots of different situations to evaluate and overcome. Lots of stress. When I go the 495 route, the one I take the great majority of the time, it makes me wonder if maybe I should have taken the less stressful way of learning poker. I could have played a lot closer to what the book said and suffered a lot less. Might not have gone on tilt as often. I wonder. But this story isn’t about poker. It’s about two roads. I hope you enjoyed it!
Vince,
A mighty metaphor that would make Robert Frost proud. Reread "The Road Less Travelled" and notice carefully that the speaker in Frost's poem actually says there really wasn't a hell of a lot to choose between those two roads he contemplated going down (well, he didn't quite say it that way; he used some rhyme and other stuff). Your essay really shows the difference between the roads we choose and how they can make a difference.
Great!
John
PS. Emerson said something like "We say cows laid out the roads of Boston . . . Well, there are worse surveyors."
whenever i travel i do take the road less traveled by and it does make a difference. i live with no stress or time constraints and stop at pretty bridges and waterways. it takes me forever to get anywhere and i still havent gotten anyplace.
Zee,
Finally coming around to my kind of thinking!!! It was all a matter of time!!!
ukw
The end of Autumn. Brook flowing under footbridge. Small leaf journeying.
Pennies in a stream
Falling leaves, a sycamore
Moonlight in Vermont
Not by me, but some composer I forget the name of.
Very pretty haiku you shared.
Tonight the summer
rainstorm walks barefoot--wind, and
pavement glistening.
by M (Mark Stults)
There is one other poem I would like to include if I can figure out how to format it here--every time I try I get the paragraph problems, etc.-not to mention the trouble I get if I try to center something--Any suggestions?
"There is one other poem I would like to include if I can figure out how to format it here--every time I try I get the paragraph problems, etc.-not to mention the trouble I get if I try to center something--Any suggestions?"
What exactly you wan', sir?
(snore, spit)
Thanks Cy, but someone else already kindly assisted me.
I actually found a web site you might be interested in, though.
www.cuspidor.com
If you check it out, let us know what you think.
It's also passé. I use the S-9 Wide Angle Zongolator, with the hydraulic compressor and the twin heat sensors, which can be turned into an attacking instrument at a flick of a switch. Has made many a burglar turn tail and run like hell.
I like it. Have you seen these?
Very nice, thanks. Who knew I'd find haiku here? :-)
David
very nice.
Vince,
" I had circle around and take the Mass pike."
Spend the 70c it's faster and less traveled than Worcester's 290.
"exit 92 in Connecticut"
Take exit 93 first one in Conn. and take a right and then a left past McD's till you hit your famous Rotary.
Paul
Hit The Road Jack
Vince,
Great story. Believe it or not, my poor brother commutes up the Southeast Expressway from Hingham to his job at MIT. He leaves the house at 5:30 a.m. to beat the traffic, but it is still bad. In the afternoon there is no beating it.
Anyway, look me up when you come out to Los Angeles. I am not as neurotic as John Cole has probably told you.
Regards,
Rick
Vince I think you are a genius in your own way.
You have also reminded me of a Zen koan I read some years ago. Not that I can answer it or expect you to, but as a point of interest I will share it with you.
A monk said to Kempo Osho: "It is written, 'Bhagavats in the ten directions, one straight road to Nirvana.' I still wonder where that road can be."
Kempo lifted his staff, drew a line, and said, "Here it is."
"Vince I think you are a genius in your own way. "
Thanks M. But is that kinda like being "a legend in his own mind"
vince
Not at all. It is quite possible to be a genius in your own way and to be a genius in the conventional sense as well.
AFAIK, all the koans have the same answer.
brad
Maybe so, but I don't know what that answer may be or what AFAIK stands for. I justr find certain koans to have an apopeal and interest level that I cannot entirely define.
as far as i know , koans are meant to sort of intellectually shock you into a realization. my point is its always the same realization. (much as there are many times more that one road to a certain destination.) as for your koan , i mean really, if your just sort of walking around in a normal state of mind you might think of the road to nirvana as a physical thing. what was the teacher trying to convey?
there is a good pbs series (old now i guess) where bill moyers interviews joseph campbell about this kind of thing.
brad
As I understand it, Nirvana is not defined as a physical place like Paradise, but rather literally from the Sanskrit (or Pali, "nibbana"), nirvana is a verb as well as a noun. The verb "nibbana" means to cool down. A person who has "nibbanaed" in the Buddhist sense is a person in which all craving has been extinguished and pure consciousness remains. When the monk asks " where do I find the road to Nirvana?" he is perhaps asking in a sense "where do I find the path to inner peace?"
Kempo Osho's answer seems to be, "It is right here right now in front of your nose." However, I am not sure just what that means, or how to apply it if possible.
Stop asking where the path is and just follow it. :-)
David
as joseph campbell so wonderfully articulated, "... we're still (just) talking ..."
You're right Vince, this was very long. But Memorial Day weekend, it took me 1900 miles to make a 1400 mile trip. There must be a longer way to FW.
Brett
x
this is mostly a response to david's posts on rgp.
david argues, for the most part, that the smartest people are a lot smarter than smart people and that intelligence is not as compartmentalized as most people believe. i agree with these assertions.
but david has said some things that i do not agree with.
the most glaring is that the whole discussion seems to imply that intelligence is a relative thing. that we should handicap ourselves to par. this is ridiculous.
i am an idiot.
there are countless things i don't understand. i don't understand why pleasure is preferable to pain. i don't understand why a certain, though indeterminate, death is qualitatively any different than an immediate death. i don't understand why jesus (the character in the gospels, not any actual son of god) killed the fig tree. i don't understand how people can live comfortably while not believing in human will. (and i know many people who profess to!) if there is order in this world i do not understand it. i do not understand why most people would prefer order. i do not understand why i prefer chaos.
in any sense that actaully matters, i am a fool.
but i am smarter than most. in fact, i am much better than almost everyone at almost everything. there are certainly some things i fail miserably at. foreign language and singing spring to mind. there are other endeavours where i am about or slightly above average, like the visual arts. but in most things i am better than all but one in a thousand. at least.
but that is no consolation. i am still an idiot.
the other comment of david's i do not agree with is a little thing about poets. i think that a command, and indeed an acceptence, of ambiguity is an essential part of the highest levels intelligence. poetry is well suited to these wrinkles of meaning. but this is a digression and won't go deeply into it here.
my main point is that those of us who are more intelligent than most should be better aware than anyone of the vastness of our ignorance.
scott
idiot sa*vant (noun), plural idiots savants or idiot savants
[French, literally, learned idiot]
First appeared 1927
1 : a mentally defective person who exhibits exceptional skill or brilliance in some limited field
2 : a person who is highly knowledgeable about one subject but knows little about anything else
I take it that this is your meaning of idiot! Of course I would consider intelligence to be compartmentalized if I was smart enough to know why.
"i don't understand why pleasure is preferable to pain"
Is it? Indefinitive.
"if there is order in this world i do not understand it"
Neither does the smartest of the smart. Just ask that Ed something or other guy that Physics worldmaster champ. He'll Tell(a) you!
". i do not understand why i prefer chaos."
After you experience "chaos" we will revisit this and see if you feel the same.
fool [1] (noun)
[Middle English, from Old French fol, from Late Latin follis, from Latin, bellows, bag; akin to Old High German bolla blister, balg bag -- more at BELLY]
First appeared 13th Century
1 : a person lacking in judgment or prudence
2 a : a retainer formerly kept in great households to provide casual entertainment and commonly dressed in motley with cap, bells, and bauble
b : one who is victimized or made to appear foolish : DUPE
3 a : a harmlessly deranged person or one lacking in common powers of understanding
b : one with a marked propensity or fondness for something
4 : a cold dessert of pureed fruit mixed with whipped cream or custard
"but i am smarter than most. in fact, i am much better than almost everyone at almost everything."
I agree with your self assessment. You can be fooled.
"the other comment of david's i do not agree with is a little thing about poets. "
What does David know, he thinks math is a language!
Vince
To know or not to know. We have no choice! Ask Plato! Ignorance is bliss! Knowing is hell!
I agree that the smartest people still shoot way above par. It would have been better had I chosen a different subject than poetry to make my point since that evokes other issues. Rating wines perhaps. I merely was trying to say that when people express their expertise in subjucts where they don't have to worry about being proven wrong, it is much easier for them to hide thier incompetance.
"subjucts where they don't have to worry about being proven wrong,"
Why is it so important that there is a right and/or wrong? Why does one worry about a smartness measuring meter? Basketballs aside, Why is there air?
Vince
It is not important for the majority of people. They don't call talk shows, care much who is president, or think their in put would make a big difference. They don't post here either except maybe to ask questions. I have no problem with them. But those who do offer opinions or answer questions, should not be able to fall back on "its no big deal whether you are right or wrong".
David,
It seems you are suggesting that English professors and/or students can argue for whatever interpretation of a work they choose without running the risk of being proven wrong. This is hardly the case. Stanley Fish, professor of English at Duke (and a lawyer, by the way), became interested in the factors that govern interpretation itself and the ways in which some interpretations achieve dominance. He coined the term "interpretive community," while drawing, in part, on the work of Thomas Kuhn whose book The Structure of Scientific Revolutions details how controlling views of the of the physical universe come into existence and achieve predominance. (The Copernican view, or paradigm as Kuhn puts it, is one such model.) Like the physical world, the world of interpretation, is subject to specific communities that, in a sense, regulate and control total subjectivity. In other words, not all interpretations are equally valid. English professors and graduate students spend most of their time looking at models of interpretation and how they can be applied to texts. Indeed, Harvard Law School approaches the study of law in the same way.
Teachers of poetry and readers of poetry use analysis all the time--and they use it rigorously. Language, though, is complicated. If I analyze the line "Mark in every face I meet / Marks of weakness, marks of woe," I can claim that "mark" means "to notice." But knowing that William Blake was both a poet and artist, whose primary method involved ecthing into a copper plate with a knife, I can say that "mark" means to actively place a mark on the face of the people he sees. Thus, I might claim that the very act of noticing, of remarking, is also an act of disfigurement. So who put the marks there? Well, the poet, for one, and the industrial world that Blake railed against. Is my analysis correct? I don't know or care, but it is analysis, not mere subjectivity.
Of course, the above is only a small example. English teachers teach students how to write, and we always, always strive to show students the nature of reasoning and point out fallacies in their work, our own work, and the work of others.
John
While there is a subjective element to poetry, because it is inherently an art form, there is a significant amount of thinking as well as feeling in the best poetry. Combining images, feelings and thoughts succintly within a structured framework of words that greatly enhances the "overall" as well as the "specific" is not an easy task. In fact the greatest art in poetry may be conveying a great deal in as few words as possible; truly the art of making a few words worth a thousand.
While there is room for debate and personal preference amongst poets and poetry, certain things are generally agreed upon with regard to the level of genius involved. For instance, Shelley's level of lyricism is generally considered without compare. Shakespeare is agreed upon as the very greatest overall, and is in a class of his very own. In fact if you compare geniuses from relative fields, say Physics, Mathematics, and Poetry, there is an interesting phenomenon. In Physics and Mathematics there are a number of names at the very peak of the mountain. You probably could not name one who simply towers over all the rest when everything is weighed up. In Poetry, however, while there are a handful who stand on the mountaintop, Shakespeare simply towers yet over all the rest when everything is weighed. In Music you may say Mozart was the greatest genius of all, but he was closely followed by Beethoven and Bach perhaps. In Chess it is probably Kasparov, followed closely by Alekhine and perhaps Fischer.
What does it mean when a field can be so completely towered over by one individual? Perhaps some day we will know whether this is merely an anomaly, or whether it means the field itself has less or more ultimate potential for realization of genius. Perhaps some day there will even be a poet great enough to condense and crystallize some of the most important and abstruse mathematical concepts into images, described by carefully chosen words, conveying the pure essence of these concepts more succintly than lengthy descriptions or formulae. After all, abstract concepts can be expressed in various ways. Or perhaps I am just imagining the impossible here. Looking at the very most basic elements of Topology (which are all I am familiar with at this point), I get an impression that this might not be out of the question at some point in the far future.
"What does it mean when a field can be so completely towered over by one individual? "
Perhaps it means that perception and emotion play a greater part than logic when humans decide who was the best. I'm not sure. I am sure that yours was one of the best posts I've read in a long time!
Vince
M,
I agree that we all have quite subjective preferences, but you'll find great debate about "canon formation" in the arts, especially Literature with a capital L. That DWMs (Dead White Males) occupy the top spots is not dependent on certain intrinsic values necessarily. William Bennett would have us believe otherwise, and he holds up certain works as pure expressions of timeless values. But I'm glad that Shakespeare, Celine, Pound, Shelley, Behn, Gilman, and Genet can be mentioned in the same sentence.
That aside, I make it a habit to read King Lear every year, not because it's good for my soul, but because I'm still trying to comprehend it. I sincerely believe, though, if Shakespeare were here now, he would vehemently deny the notion of "genius." Osacar Wilde, on the other hand, ....
John
Yes, I agree that there is much room for preference and subjectivity in evaluating Literary greats.
That is why I confined myself to two observations I think are pretty much agreed upon, that Shakespeare was the greatest overall, and that Shelley was the most lyrical. Part of the reason for my doing so was to add support to your position that there are certain things that are evaluated and judged in the field of literature that are generally agreed upon to the point that it is not just subjective.
Hi M,
Basically, I was trying to point out that poems can be analyzed. David seemed to assume that analysis had no place in poetry when, in fact, it's crucial. Just because we can't say a particular analysis is correct, doesn't mean that it's wrong or merely a matter of opinion. Now, ranking poets or writers is not the same. That's a more subjective process, but you won't go to far wrong with most if you put Shakespeare and Shelley near the top. But, there's really no need to.
Shakespeare and Shelley are two of my favorites; however, many people will disagree. And billions of people have not heard or read either, and they know poetry and literature--just not the poetry and literature that Western people know.
Unfortunately, Shelley wrote one of the worst lines of poetry ever: Hail to thee blithe spirit! / Bird thou never wert.
John
"Unfortunately, Shelley wrote one of the worst lines of poetry ever: Hail to thee blithe spirit! / Bird thou never wert."
Wrong Charlie! (John) That was a line Shelley Winters made famous in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest! You English Teachers never can keep your Shelley's straight!
Vince
Well if she didn't say it she should have. Even if she wasn't in the Movie! Technicalities, my woid!
Vince.
Hi John, Yes, certainly form and subject can be analyzed as you said, and I know that was your point.
While the beginning of To A Skylark is not particularly impressive, I think the poem as a whole contains many impressive lines. Or maybe I just like them.
Mark
John,
How does my infamous 4' by 6' tapestry of "Card Playing Dogs" rate in the art world? Should I remove it before you visit?
Regards,
Rick
I love those card playing dogs. Not too long ago I saw a collection of perhaps some dozen of those prints, all different, all by the same artist. I'm not sure what level of art or genius they might qualify for, but in my opinion they're G-r-e-a-t!
M,
Actually at one point I had two. They weren't prints but giant tapestries. I lived at my parent's home for one short period after I was eighteen, and naturally I slept in a corner of their basement * (the natural choice of any rebellious post teen in the seventies). "Card Playing Dogs" defined two walls of my nook.
Anyway, my first wife later confided (after I moved them to an apartment) that she thought my taste was so bad that she found it appealing in an offbeat sort of way. But I've improved over time and stick with the prints one can get at Walmart. I try to get them to go with my couch ;-).
Regards,
Rick
* Basement: For those who live in the Southwest, a basement is another word for cellar. It is a hole in the ground surrounded by concrete that the house is built on. In the Northeast, people load their basements with junk they don't need and keep their garages for the cars.
Rick,
More and more, I'm beginning to think that particular artwork isn't a work of imagination but an instance of verisimilitude. Except for the smoking, of course. Hell, leave whatever you want on the walls. Just make sure you have a spiffy little Chardonnay, perhaps with a hint of plum and whiff of old forest growth, handy. You know I'm quite the oenophile. ;)
John
"...Shakespeare were here now, he would vehemently deny the notion of "genius." Osacar Wilde, on the other hand, ...."'
So that's why Oscar Wilde and David Sklanky both have a first name containing 5 letters. Wow! See how all things in the universe converge. There are no mysteries. Just discoveries waiting to be found! E puribus unum!
Vince - Hey, ever notice that Vince has four letters in common with Da Vinci (Vinc) Wow isn't thought wonderful! Hey did you know that Sha.... better stop huh!
Vince.
"While there is room for debate and personal preference amongst poets and poetry, certain things are generally agreed upon with regard to the level of genius involved. .... In Physics and Mathematics there are a number of names at the very peak of the mountain. ... In Chess it is probably Kasparov, followed closely by Alekhine and perhaps Fischer."
Where do you base this ranking?
RE: Chess:
Kasparov has dominated worldwide chess more thoroughly and I believe longer than anyone in history. The second tier of Super-GMs has not been truly competitive with him. When asked his choice for the greatest player ever, he said perhaps too modestly, that he had two picks, Alekhine and Capablanca. I should have included Capa here. Fischer had his brilliant times but when he surfaced in later years for a tournament was quite unimpressive by today's standards. Noted GMs commented that the level of play was not really very high. I think a poll of today's top Gms would almost certainly give it to Kasparov, historically speaking. Super-talented young GM Judit Polgar, when asked about how she felt about playing Kramnik, Anand, and Shirov (who were at the time ranked 2nd through 4th in the world) and Kasparov in a tournament, said that she felt based on her past experiences against them and her recent game against Kramnik that she had felt she had a chance with them but that with Kasparov it was different; she knew she had no chance against him.
Let's not forget Morphy, Lasker, Steinitz, et al. However Kasparov has truly dominated in a historical sense and continues to do so. However, the gap between Kasparov and the 2nd through 10th in the world is less than the gap between Shakespeare and other great poets.
John Cole! Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! (3 times makes it official).
vince.
I thought I had changed the subject to rating wines.
Does anyone play at Turning Stone?
I don't know who done it! someone told a young man in Scotland., yes in the U.K. that I was into combiantions and the like. He sent me an e-mail. He is a fourteen year old and I never met him before in my life. The internet. Dangerous. Since he was so polite in his request I told him I would ask a few Wiz Kids I talked to now and then for help. Yes you guys. Here's the problem:
If I have 15 random numbers in a row how many sequences of six will I be able to make ?. I would like to make this number go to a max of 39 and to a min of 10 random numbers.
Plese make the answer simple enough for an old man to understand.
Thank you before hand cause I know you will answer. Your ego will force you!
vince.
Vince,
perhaps I'm not fully understanding the question. If you can choose any 15 random numbers, there's an infinite number of subsets from an infinite number of numbers.
But you mentioned something about having 10 random numbers to choose from. If so, how can you make 15 numbers out of 10? Unless you give half of them a split personality. But do that and they'll spend so much time at a psychiatrist's office telling the shrink how you're controling their lives by making them file into the confined spaces of a subset that they won't have time to help you answer the question. And believe me, you're gonna need the number's help if you wanna answer this.
So for the sake of children starving in Africa, can you 'splain the problem a little better?
Dan
Dan and Scott,
I got this problem from a kid in Scotland. I am going to send him your replies. Maybe Sottish Math is different from American math. I've heard that math is a language of it's own but I never knew there were different dialects. Man, why can't we get along.
Dan and Scott,
I got this problem from a kid in Scotland. I am going to send him your replies. Maybe Sottish Math is different from American math. I've heard that math is a language of it's own but I never knew there were different dialects. Man, why can't we get along.
Vince
i am not exactly sure what you are asking. i will answer a few variations.
one can pick a set of 6 from a set of 15 5005 ways. this is simple combinations.
by the way, i computed 5005 in my head by noticing that after you cancel out the terms you get 5*11*13*7. i know that 7*11*13 is 1001 because a divisibility test is derivable from that fact.
if the order of the set of 6 matters, then we have 720 (6 factorial) times 5005 sequences of length 6. which is some big number around 3500000.
if you want to say something about joining the numbers into sequences of digits and then breaking them down, i think i could solve it. but it would be enough work that would like to have a clear formulation of the problem.
if you mean something else, just ask again. i'll keep trying until i get it. anything for vince. and of course ego.
scott
Since most here live in filthy cities are you as vocal about the quality of air you breathe? This is not an attempt to be flippant, I really am curious.
Yes. That is why I live in the country as far away from the city as I can get. I would have moved to California years ago were it not for the air quality. I can SMELL the difference.
I put up with cigarette smoke for 20 years without really noticing it. I can't believe it didn't bother me. Then, about 10 years ago It started to get to me. Now I ABHOR it!
The last time I played in a smoking cardroom I had to wait two hours for a seat, then when I finally got one the guy on my right was smoking and the smoke...you guessed it would go right where my nose would be. So I didn't play and haven't played since.
Northern Cal (Eureka area) can be nice.
i am. i call the epa whenever i see a company polluting the air and complain. missoula used to be real bad but enough people called and now at least wood stoves are regulated and frenchtown is better and the mill at bonner paid dearly.
Is it true that the world is full of bastards, the number increasing rapidly the farther one gets from Missoula, Montana?
mark
Missoula does stink at times during the winter but hasn't been to bad the six years I've lived here. I'm in my 10th month not smoking after 30 plus, may feel different next winter. Even as a smoker I could appreciate the air in the West Yellowstone area when I lived there. I grew up in L.A (Downey) during the 50's, 60's and have spent most of my time since I left between Northern Cal and Montana. I can barely tolerate L.A when I visit. Its easy to avoid cigarette smoke, just don,t patronize the joints that allow smoking. Much more difficult to deal with air quality.
Air pollution is not a significant health hazard. Second hand smoke is not a significant health hazard. With all of the problems in the world, its a tragedy that so much money, time and effort, is spent on these pathetic unfounded public health concerns. Workers in industrial settings are exposed to contaminants of much greater toxicity in heavy doses. Toxicology studies are needed for these serious situations. Too bad so much attention is paid to this kind of crap. It would be laughable and silly if it didnt have serious consequences such as soaking up all the research money. Have you guys been reading "Earth in the Balance"? You must stop getting your news from mainstream sources.
It seems to appear that in the world according to Ivan, nothing is a significant health hazard.
There are lots of significant health hazards, but the EPA is really, really lousy at figuring out what they are, and the U.S. environmental movement is great at trying to eliminate tiny risks at great cost in dollars here, and at great cost of life in the 3rd world. But then, boutique environmentalists have never cared much about that.
Let me give you a couple of examples:
Malaria used to be the #1 killer in the third world. Tens of millions of people died from malaria every year. Then DDT was invented, and widespread spraying of DDT resulted in almost the complete eradication of malaria as a worldwide health problem. But then some activists discovered that DDT *might* cause eggshell thinning in some birds, Rachel Carson wrote 'silent spring', and soon we had a worldwide ban on DDT. Malaria has been on the rise again ever since.
Let me ask you: If we discovered a chemical that saved millions of lives a year in the U.S., but then discovered that it might cause eggshell thinning in birds in, say, Ethiopia, do you think we'd ban it 'for our own good'?
Here's another example: The radical program to eliminate freon as a refrigerant has caused the cost of refrigeration to increase dramatically, and has made it impossible to repair old refrigerators. The net result for poor countries is a reduction in the use of refrigeration, which has caused a rapid spike in both food poisoning and stomach cancer deaths. But do you even hear about that in the media here? Nope.
Bear in mind that even if the ozone hole theory is correct, and we lost 10% of our ozone layer, the net result would be about the same as the difference in exposure between say, Great Falls Montana and Cheyenne Wyoming (the ozone layer naturally thins as you move towards the equator). It's not even clear that this is a health risk, but we were willing to condemn hundreds of thousands or millions of people to agonizing deaths in the third world so that WE could feel better.
The whole field of environmental policy is rife with fuzzy thinking. Rarely are costs of environmental programs considered. Activists see a problem, and declare that we MUST address it. But anything that costs money has liabilities as well as advantages. If maintenance of the Kyoto accords costs us $100 million dollars, that's 100 million that could have been spent on AIDS research, infant vaccinations, or other health programs that have measurable benefits.
This is not to say that environmentalism is bad. Unfortunately, environmental policy is driven by touchy-feely types without the analytical skills Sklansky has been talking about. The field is full of bad science and shaky conclusions, which lead to policies that are actually counter-productive to the overall health of our world.
You have struck a cord here. I am in complete agreement with DDT and Freon. the EPA really does over do itself. My dealings with EPA has been significant. My impression is too many aspiring politocos and many less than mediocore scientists. Some of the people who were in chem and chem engineering who could not make the grade went into "scientific management" and a couple hold high positions in EPA down South.
Even if the EPA is not of the highest caliber in some ways, what about studies done by the Centers For Disease Control (and others?)
The EPA study seems to be the focal point of attack. Even if its studies were flawed, that does not make studies by other quality organizations citing the injurious effects of secondhand smoke less valid.
There may be much in what you say with regard to these other environmental issues and our treatment of them---I don't know anything much about the issues you mention in the above post.
However, just because we may deal with other environmental issues improperly does not mean that restricting secondhand smoke is in this same category.
I also do not see how restricting public smoking indoors or in workplaces could have any connection to causing possible harm in third world countries, like you say some of our other environmental policies do.
It might be that our overall environmental policies should be looked at and perhaps revised if necessary--again, I don't know.
I don't see what connection this has with the essence of the debate over secondhand smoke, however.
The issue is whether secondhand smoke is likely to be sufficiently injurious to warrant a ban on smoking in public indoor buildings and workplaces.
While some take issue with the EPA's conclusions, I think it may be primarily the numbers they are challenging (3000), not the fact that secondhand smoke is harmful and even kills some people.
I think it is stretching the imagination to assume that many studies done, EPA as well as others, have arrived at similar false conclusions with regard to secondhand smoke injuring others.
It is really stretching it to say that a substance which kills over 300,000 direct users a year in the U.S. and which physically irritates the bodies of people around it, is more likely than not to be safe for those exposed to it. I mean really. Assuming it is safe is just ludicrous even if you don't have complete faith in the studies. In fact, even if there were no secondhand smoke studies done at all, and all we had to go on were the incredible number of yearly deaths from smoking and the fact that it irritates the bodies of those in the vicinity, any sensible person ought to be able to see that even if it isn't proven harmful, there's a damn good chance it is.
Once you realize this, even a child could see that it is grossly unfair to subject others to this, and that the rights of people to not be assaulted outweigh the rights of smokers to indulge their habit in public.
We have laws against optional activities that endanger or even irritate others. You cannot just blast your stereo outside regardless of the time or the decibel level if you live in a community--I think 110 or 130 decibels is the limit in most communities.
Yet this is a minor assault on others compared to the dangers of secondhand smoke, and I'm sure many find secondhand smoke at least as annoying as too loud music. So taking the prudent, considerate course of action is the first choice, but when others trample our rights to not be physically irritated or endangered, we have a right to take action or expect legal protection.
You are not forced to breathe second hand smoke, you don't have to patronize a place that allows smoking. Yes I agree that smoke is objectionable and possibly harmful but so what.
Ivan, I'd love to transport you to Eastern Europe during the Soviet-run era, and see what you say about air pollution then.
Furthermore, when somebody smells a bad smell emanating from a factory or other source, and wants to report it and have it removed, it seems simply an act of self preservation. Think about it. Why would your nose perceive that particular chemical as having a bad smell? From the standpoint of evolution, it would make sense only if that chemical (or others that have no odor and are more harmful but are present at the same time) was harmful to you. Otherwise it would have no odor. As far as I'm concerned cigarette smoke falls into this category.
You're wrong to say it's a waste of time.
Bill
I understand you are an Industrial Hygenist? And you have no problems with regulating pollutants in the air. Ever been to Cairo (the world's biggest ashray) or Mexico City? You must be either a person who works for the pollutors or one of the most uninformed scientists in the world. Next I figure you will say Chernyoble and Three Mile Island were really just minor problems.
I hate government interference, and recognize EPA is overkill, but to say air quality is not an issue, is irresponsible for someone in the business. You do not see the people with asthma who come into the ER daily in the big city (I know cockroaches are a big problem for asthmatics, but air pollutants are a big factor too).
Chernobyl was really a disaster. Three Mile Island, on the other hand, was nothing but media hype. Nobody was hurt by it.
Somebody brought up eastern europe. Im from eastern europe for christ sake. The pollution is horrible and health problems result. However, in America, contaminant levels are nowhere near that level. Contaminant levels anywhere in the states do not meet the level of significant risk. The EPA goes way too far. Limits on pollution are necessary, however the EPA is not necessary to accomplish this. Capitalism can take care of the problem through markets.
I should mention that as an industrial hygienist i am not concerned with environmental exposures. I deal with exposures occuring in occupational settings. These are real hazards. Environmental "hazards" are a joke.
Only 2 causes of cancer
Genes and environment
This is true, but you are misusing the term "environment". The "environment" encompasses everything that is an outside influence, and this includes the workplace, outside your house, in an airplane. Essentially, the term in this context is take to mean all that is not a genetic cause.
Rarely does anything have only a genetic or environmental cause, though. The genetics of an individual usually confer susceptibility to environmental influence.
Bill
I wonder also. Anyone who thinks that air pollution will be controlled and monitored by the statement "capitalsim can take care of the problem through markets" is a lunatic.
Any thoughts about acid rain?
Here is another issue that has been blown out of proportions. Acid rain exists, but will not have health consequences to humans. It may cause problems with other forms of life, but nothing serious.
To lose the trout in a lake is serious to me.
all the nice lakes in the adirondacks in n.y. are almost fishless or have nothing but small fish because of loss of bug life.(the food chain people). the water is too acid for many life forms. much of the northeast u.s. has this problem and its really happening all over the world. comes from burning too much fossil fuel. maybe it doesnt kill people but the start of the chain is in motion for many years now.
I,m not sure that cumalative effects are completely considered in these matters. When any life form is harmed its not that much of a streach to think it might also be harmful to us.
I went to Mexico City in December two years ago, generally the worst time of the year for smog in the worst polluted air in the world. One day I was there they issued one of their worst possible health warnings, a situation where about 25% of all cars were not allowed to be driven and factories had to shut down after 4 hours of work. In all this, I went out and walked up a hill to visit their famous Chapultepec castle. To get there you have to walk up a rather steep road on the hill as the castle is about 400 feet above the rest of the park, and of course this is at 7,500 feet of altitude so by no means was this an easy task. Facing all this, I had little problem making the walk and had only minor irritation in my eyes and lungs from it. In no way was this even near the irritation I get from sitting at a poker table full of smokers! Yes I am concerned about smog, but I have to say its not anywhere near the concern I think we should all have about smoking.
I don't know which is worse: a cloud from a greyhound bus or a cloud from a human chimney. The human chimney is supposed to be able to think, however.
Going to be in London next month, is there any poker there?
Not as much as we'd like, but yes there is. www.poker-in-the-uk.com and eppa.bigfoot.com are two sites with a lot of info. Basically in London there is the Ladbrokes Russell Square (a bit small and subterranean for my liking) and the Victoria in Edgware Road (brimming over with sharks). If you can get out to the provinces (Luton, Reading, Brighton etc.) the games are _much_ better.
Most places run tournaments starting around 8-9 pm with cash games starting up when enough people get knocked out. All the games are pot-limit. The Victoria runs cash games more often (starting 2 pm) but these are real shark-fests with the locals pushing small change back and forth waiting for a fish to join them.
Hope this helps, let me know if you have any more questions.
Andy.
Andy,
Curious only: are you anywhere near Preston?
Oh no, that's far too Northern for me. About 200 miles. I have been there though. Bit of a dump, all things considered.
Andy.
Sometime yesterday afternoon, my computer stopped updating the forum pages. I can't see any messages posted from Tuesday afternoon until now. I can't even guarantee that I'm able to post this as I won't be able to see it if it does. I don't recall changing any of the settings on my computer. Does anyone have any suggestions? I have an IBM compatible with Windows 2000 software and Internet Explorer. Needless to say, e-mailing me would be the best option.
Thanks
Dan
That's what happens when you mess with Vince
Have you guys seen the add on this page? I took a look at the site, and it's just a redo of all the High School propaganda that I was exposed to when I was a Teen.
I always wonder why we just don't legalize it. Heck alcohol is worse for people. Not that I use the stuff. I never realy enjoyed it. But some people really like it.
I say the government should legalize it, tax it, and regulate it.
CV
If they legalized it, taxed it, and regulated it, what would they do with the prison industry they've built up to put the (mostly minority) drug dealers in? You realize you are talking about putting a lot of middle-class Americans who work as prison guards, rehabilitation specialists, and pseudo-intellectual reformers out of work with that attitude?
I figure there is a big economy playing cops and robbers with the Drug dealers.
CV
I'm with you. And no, pot isn't very dangerous.
Here's Cecil again, on dope: What are the long-term effects of Marijuana?
Cecil has probably one of the more rational ideas about Marijuana.
CV
Someone explain to me-Cecil states "marijuana smoke contains 50% more carcinogenic hyfrocarbons than cigarette smoke". He then goes on to state "even if one assumes the worst, marijuana as a carcinogen pales in comparison to tobacco". How can it pale in comparison to tobacco when it contains 50% more carcinogens??? I dont mean to rain on your parade, but anytime you put/ingest any form of a carcinogenic substance into your body, it is not good for you.
" hyfrocarbons" These were popular in the 70's usually with a PIK in them. The PIK was used for roaches. Oil from the hair follicles and cosmic dust combined to form "HYFROCARBONS"
Phineas
I don't know anyone who smokes a Pack a Day of Marijuana.
CV
Because your average pot smoker smokes maybe 1-5 joints a week. An average cigarette smoker smokes 100-300 cigarettes a week.
Incidence of cancer is not linear with exposure to known carcinogens. There are plenty of materials that are carcinogenic in large quantities, but appear to have little or no effect in smaller quantities. And Cecil spoke the truth when he said there has NEVER been a documented case of lung cancer that could be attributed to marijuana alone.
Studies show similar effects in cigar and pipe smokers. For a while, there was some confusion because some studies showed a fairly high risk factor for cigar smoking, while others showed little or no risk at all. It turns out that the studies that showed high risk were predominated by people either living in Europe or emigrated from there, and these people tend to inhale cigar smoke. American cigar smokers usually don't. They still get lots of second-hand smoke, and lots of accidental inhalations, but it doesn't seem to translate into much of a cancer risk.
The average pot smoker smokes 1-5 joints a week? Where did you come up with this? Your dreaming if you think this is how much they smoke...
Okay, what's your number? My number comes from growing up surrounded by pot smokers. Often they can't even smoke one joint in a day. Smoke half, you're buzzed, put the rest out and save it for another day. A lot of the people I know who smoke pot smoke more like one joint a week, or maybe less.
My experiences would lead me to similar conclusions. Quality(potency) is key here.
We agree on this one, Dan. The biggest problem with pot (aside from it is illegal in post places) is that it has a lot of tar, but the temperature does not reach the temp of tobacco and all the bs they put in it to keep it burning and hopefully people do not smoke a pack a day. Of course, I do not want the school bus driver toking up before breakfast. Pot, under the right circumatances is probably no worse that beer.
Not only that, but I've never known anyone who smoked pot and then beat their wife or busted heads in a bar. Pot reduces agression - alcohol increases it.
If you want to talk about an epidemiological problem, let's talk about the war on drugs. We're spending billions of dollars, creating huge criminal classes, overcrowding our jails, and locking up hundreds of thousands of people who haven't harmed anyone. Marijuana should be legalized and controlled. Then the resources freed up in the criminal justice system could be used to actually prosecute real criminals instead of plea-bargaining their sentences away because there is no room for them.
No doubt about it, pot should be legal, controlled and taxed modestly. Legalization will cause an initial upsurge in use, but this is a decent tradeoff vs the illegal trafficing. My guess is that the moalists are not stopping the legalization, it is more likely the big money people like banks and police agencies who get more money to fight drugs.
I can understand legalizing it, but why control it? It's a plant. Why should it be any more contolled than a tomato vine?
If you a couple tomatos and drive the school bus, you might have a little indigestion, but if you "do" a few hits of a joint, you might have a little acident (same as alcohol).
10. Gargamel (the Smurfs) Most likely LSD. Spends his life in pursuit of little blue guys in sissy white outfits and mentally abusing his cat. What does he plan to do with the blue dwarfs when he catches them anyway?
9. Olive Oyl Probably Dexatrim abuse, maybe some amphetamines. Who is that skinny?! She might even be anorexic, she IS always giving her burger to her friend. One side question, what the hell are Popeye and Brutus thinking? They almost made the list for courting her.
8. Snagglepuss Can't explain it. Maybe it's the name, or the look, but he is suspicious.
7. He-Man This is an easy one. I mean c'mon. Roid monkey #1. "BY THE POWER OF ANABOL!!!!!!" Makes me want to root for Skeletor. Alone in his castle, hitting the weights. And on top of that he even injects the shit in his pet tiger. Animal Abuse.
6.& 5. Yogi and Boo Boo We all know what is really in those picnic baskets. They go back to the cave and trip. Another side ? - Are they gay? I mean, take a look at BooBoo. Not that there's anything wrong with that.....
4. Droopy The number one downer abuser in toon land. Can't someone slip him an upper every year or two. The only time I ever saw him happy is when he sees the picture of the babe.
3. Dopey (Dwarf) He openly admits it. The other dwarves deny involvement but they are under investigation. Allegations are that Doc is writing some extra 'scripts' for Sneezy and all the guys partaking are afloat.
2. Daffy Duck If he isn't using crack, Marion Barry is clean. He is so wired he bounces around on his head without pain. Blows his beak off all the time. Some symptoms might be from "daffiness" but Haldol wouldn't work for him. Might for his buddy with Tourettes, Porky, though.
1. Shaggy By far the #1 suspect. His clothes, his hair, his bad goatee, the boy converses with dogs. But all of this is nothing until you go to the Munchie Factor. Anybody who averages 9.3 dog treats (scooby snacks) consumed per episode smokes pot. And look at the way he and his friends painted that van!
[copied from http://www.fantasy-web.com/jokes/misc5.htm]
..on your new Poker Digest column.
Thanks! Actually, it's not a column... I just submitted that article to them and they bought it. I've submitted another, and I have a few more, so if they like the stuff hopefully it'll be a regular occurance.
Dan,
You guys in Canada do great stuff. Poker Digest is looking very good on technical content and you and skp are are big part of it. I'm looking forward to your new material.
Regards,
Rick
As long as you smoke it in a Hood who cares!! I hate when the guy next to me complained about the smell so I laced it with crushed banana peels and now we smoke together on a regular basis. Does that mean that I'm gay!!!
Phineas
I believe you were smoking when you wrote this.
CV
And we wonder why poker isn't more accepted as a suitable profession in society.
Maybe that's why I can't get dates. Girls ask me what I do to support myself and I say, "I play Poker". That seems to be the last I hear from them.
CV
Funny! I have that same problem! But it sure is easier to have poker to blame for my sexual frustration.
Well, it may not be actually good for you, but it is a simple fact that if society could start again and legalize one of marijuana, nicotine and alcohol, marijuana would be by far the best choice for the health of its people and the overall well-being of the society.
Smoking and alcohol certainly kill more people, even proportionally to how many people partake, and of course alcohol results in thousands of deaths and injuries to bystanders. Don't start me off on the lives lost on the roads and the wasted years in front of the TV either ..
Andy.
.. I mean except the Simpsons.
Andy.
Though I do know a couple people who do smoke too much. There lives seem to be living from one joint to the next. I wonder, if they didn't have Marajuana would they find something else to waste their time and money on?
CV
CV,
I noticed that you've responded to every post on this thread, so this must be a hot topic for you. I'm just curious if you'll reply to this post as well. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Yes.
CV
Years ago I was associated with Bud for 15 yrs or so( Humboldt Co.). My advice to my daughters ( 15 and 17) is to avoid Bud. Do I think it harmed me?, aahh, well humm, well ahh what was I talking about?
I don't believe that teenagers should be allowed to use any mind-altering drug. Most teens I know have a tough enough time as it is. The last thing they need to do is complicate things with Drugs and Alcohol. The problem I see is that Teens are going to get exposed to Marijuana and other drugs anyway. They should have the facts straight, and not this twisted version of the truth.
CV
Pot per se isn't that bad. Many cancer patients need it to ease the pain so it has use. However, it does lead to harder drugs like heroin and cocaine which are certainly bad for you.
i am not going to question pot leading to harder drugs, though one easily could with a corr vs caus argument.
i am also not going to argue harder drugs are not unilaterilly bad for you (even unprescibed recreational use. let alone self medication.), though i think an argument could be made.
i am willing to stipulate both of those points.
why should they be illegal? does the government protecting me from myself make sense? does it not imply that i am mentally incompetent (in the legal sense) and should be stripped of all my decision making ability?
as long as i am legally sane the government has no place protecting me from myself. absolutely none.
the prohibition ethic is one of the least moral things i can think of and it should be held up to ridicule as often as possible.
scott
Okay... You big dumb idiot, prohibition!
rite on man, Im with you 100% like wow,trippy.realing getting off on this discussion.friday nite poker game will have electric brownies for the potheads. not me man...just crank for me,my judgement has to be sharp.how about a game of O/8 with 5potheads and 5peopledoing speed. XXXX....snore...turn up the stereo lets eat
If you think about it, the overwhelmingly most common gateway drug is beer.
Bill C.,
How about milk? Almost every addict drank it as an infant ;-).
Rick
Absolutely, not to mention that the part of the brain that lights up to the taste of 'fat' is the same part that lights up in response to a toot of coke.
That's interesting where did you read it.
CV
I'm a psychologist and it actually forms part of the research I'm involved in. I can give you the references if you're REALLY interested - but they're in scientific journals.
I think you will finder a higher correlation between cigarette smoking (nicotine), alcohol and heroin use. The correlation between pot and heroin is not as strong as one would imagine. No evidence that I know of that pot is addictive. The data is not clear -- what comes first in heroin/pot circle. It may be alcohol->nicotine->heroin->pot; certainly not so simplistic, but you get the possible picture.
By the way,I would love to play poker with 7 stoned "dudes"
Ratso,
As a sweeping generality, I think there is a certain type of person who is willing to do things that their parents, teachers, etc. don't want them to do (i.e., the rebel). In this country, this type tends to have an attitude that is not conducive to good health.
We all agree that smoking is bad for you, but I wonder how much of the shorter average lifespan of the smoker is attenuated by their other bad habits. In a country like Japan, cigarette smoking is not the badge of a rebel, so a smoker will often eat well, stay in shape, drive safely and so on. Thus Japanese have the longest life spans in the world despite smoking heavily.
Regards,
Rick
Is pot really bad for me? Probably not. The question should be "Is pot really good for me?" Probably not. I am not conversant with all the recent research regarding the chemistry in the brain regarding addiction, craving, etc. I understand they have made great strides in this area. I look at craving as a "snake bite". It may not be fatal but it sure can be a bitch. I personally stopped smoking when it began to give me anxiety instead of pleasure. I just think my chemicals changed in my body. I just outgrew the desire.
give me a call at work. 975-8217. i found a seat for you in a dealer's choice game tonight if you want it.
scott
Couldn't figure a politically correct way to make this funny, so I'll tell it as a blonde joke.
Three women escape from jail and run into a dead-end alley. With the guards in hot pursuit, they spot a stack of empty potato sacks and each climbs into one to hide.
A (not so smart) guard notices the lumpy sacks and kicks the first one gently. The brunette inside says "Meow." The dim guard declares, it is just a cat and kicks the next one.
The redhead inside says "Woof, woof." The guards says "And this one is just a puppy." He kicks the last sack- the one with the blonde inside.
Having learned from the others, she says....
"Potatoes."
Any joke insulting the intelligence of women is extremely politically incorrect. When was the last time any woman was the butt of a joke on television, the movies, or a comic strip?
The only PC way of starting the joke out would have been "Three men escape from jail..."
And we know that being politically incorrect ranks right up there with not wearing khahis or driving an SUV .... Tsk, tsk
nt
A blond, brunette, and a redhead, all in 8th grade try sneaking into your local poker room. Upon discovering them the brush kicks out the brunette and redhead. Why was the blond allowed to stay?
Because she's 21.
Packerfan
Be the flop... See the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
What goes VROOM-SCREECH, VROOM-SCREECH, VROOM-SCREECH?
A blond at a flashing red light.
oh god spare us no more...
anyone got a dull razor
jg
Two Blonds were walking though the woods when they came upon some tracks. The first blond said "Hey, I think these are deer tracks." The second blond replies "No, no, these are elk tracks, I'm sure of it."
Which one was right?
We don't know, they were still arguing when the train hit them. :)
Scott and I will be at Turning Stone until Sunday if anyone's up there.
I was one of the lucky 32 players invited to participate in the first ever RGP Invitational Online Heads-Up Poker Tournament. Matches are being played once per week (or thereabouts) on Planet Poker in a single-elimination 1-on-1 format. You start with T250, and play 5-10 limit HE for 40 minutes. If no winner, then you move up to 10-20 for 40 minutes. You also might end up playing 20-40, though no one even came close last night.
Half of the first round matches took place last night. It was a bad night for 2+2 participants, as Adbul lost to Patti Beadles, and Jim Geary lost to Mike Sager. Nothing negative in this, as there is a lot of luck involved in matches that only last for about 30-50 hands (very rough guesstimate). I play tonight at 10PM Eastern time against Derek McLain, about whom I know nothing (at least as far as playing style is concerned). As far as I know, I'm the only other 2+2 regular in this thing, so I guess I can figure on getting moral support from most of you.
To watch, go to www.planetpoker.com. You might be able to see real-time results (but not bet-by-bet action) at the MCU portion of the website, but I'm not sure of that. To see a game fully live, you need to have or download the PlanetP software and set up an account. You don't need a credit card or any form of money, as people open accounts to play the free games (I have no money on my account). This will let you get to a table and watch it live. Unfortunately, going back-and-forth from game to game is very slow, and you cannot (as far as I know) just set up 2 separate windows for simultaneous viewing.
Also, after the fact, you can see the hole cards of both players for every hand, and a review of their actions on each round, even if the hand is folded. This was given as the main point of this tourney, to allow a detailed analysis of real heads-up play with no questions as to who had what when. I hope I don't do anything really stupid, because everyone will see it if I do. The hand information for last nights' matches are at http://www.planetpoker.com/ppf/rgptourney.htm
Hope to see you there.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
xx
If I weren't going to the Yankees/Mets game, this would be at the top of my list for Friday Night Entertainment. (Boy, do I have a dull social life.)
-Michael
Maybe if Abdul listened more to David instead of Caro he would have a chance playing heads up!
vince.
I was able to prevail Friday night against Derek. As I suspected, these matches are looking to be about 90% luck, with skill only making the difference when the cards run pretty even. Of course, this implies that the significantly better player would have up to a 55:45 edge on his opponent, which is pretty substantial if you could get it regularly.
Anyway, if you go to www.osocs.org/rgp, you can easily view the details of every hand played in each match. You get to see both hands every time, not just when there's a showdown. Thus, you can learn what hands each player folded to a bet, and what hands each player bet that led to a fold.
When you go look at Abdul's game, you will see that at best he could have lost less than he did, and hoped for the cards to start breaking in his favor. There is no doubt that he had to lose money on the cards they played, barring psychic or other such powers.
I haven't looked at Jim Geary's hands yet, so can't comment as to whether he also ran into bad luck, or played like a fish. Probably the former, but you never know when the heat is going to get to those Arizonans.
Next matches are this Thursday at 10 PM eastern, with the 3rd round on Friday. The semis and finals are the following week on Thursday and Friday. All matches at 10 PM eastern. Enjoy.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)*
* So far undefeated for an entire lifetime of heads-up poker tournament matches.
Greg, Congrats! I'm about to go look at your results. You are absolutely right about Abdul's match. I thought he heavily outplayed his opponent at the beginning, and his monster draw semi-bluffs seemed to repeatedly fail, and his opponent would catch when she was a huge dog. Oh well, them's the breaks. Good luck next round. Dan S.
Greg is being a little modest here. I reviewed the hands he played and he played very well. I was thinking of posting some of the hands from these games because I found several that were interesting. Hope nobody has any objections, as I’ll keep the players anonymous.
We've all agreed, by joining the competition, to subject our play to close scrutiny. I don't think that you need to hide identities, unless that makes your analysis more useful. For example, if you see a terrible play made by Roy Cooke, Abdul, or the like, and you want to get feedback from people that is untainted by the player's reputation, then hiding identities might be a good idea.
So, don't be afraid to point out my mistakes, or by telling everyone what those mistakes were. Let's see if I can avoid the 45% chance of bad luck prevailing on Thursday.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Sadly, I failed to win my second round match last night. I haven't reviewed the transcript yet, but it does seem to me that I was out-flopped, out-turned, and out-rivered, but I know that I definitely lost at least 3 big bets due to poor judgment on my part. So, avoid a couple of mistakes early, and who knows what might have been. No room for mistakes in poker.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
How about posting some of those hands where you made your mistakes?
I have a better idea. Why don't you and others review the play, and then you can pick out hands and tell me where I went wrong. You all might find some errors I missed, or tell me that what I thought was a mistake was really OK.
Best way to do this is to go to www.osocs.org/rgp and read the file.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I just started going through it. It may take me awhile, but I will get back to you.
Tomorrow (Mon.) Morning the "trouble and strife" and I well be winging our way to the UK where we lived most of the 80's - I am looking forward to Royal Ascot where some of the best horse flesh on the planet will be running for the finish line. I am sure my old pals in my local betting shop and pub will want the low down on what I have been up to since I was back there last (1996) I am most interested in the Casino Poker being played in In the south of England - Planning to play in Reading London and Luton. So if you are a Brit keep an eye out at you local club for a Italian looking guy who obviously loves food with dark glasses on betting the river like he has it - and probably does.
Seriously if any one recognized me please come up and say hi there is a pint in it for you :-)
Mike Guzaldo
Mike,
Whose the guy sitting down in front of you? Why are you putting your hand on his shoulder? Is he your son. Good looking kid. You know, Mike you look just like an Okie I know.
Vince.
I'll be staying with relatives in Washington, and best I can determine, Little Creek in Shelton is the closest casino to them. Their web site is "under construction". If anyone can tell me what games they spread (particularly if they spread O/8), and what limits they spread, I'd surely appreciate it.
Hey my local casino. Not sure if I am too late to tell you.
In general they play 1-5 stud and 2-5 or 3-6 (with kill) hold'em. For a while they were playing a lot of 4-8 (with kill) hold'em but that game doesn't happen often.
Never seen O/8 at Little Creek. Have rarely seen 7CS 8's or better.
Ken
Not too late, thanks for the info.
This weeks episode. Jack rescuses James Madison from the guilitine, gets caught by Napolian's Army, and challanges Napolian to a game of poker for his life, a ring, and the deed to Louisiana.
Napolian and Jack play one hand of draw poker. Jack's assistant is the dealer. Jack discards three cards, while Napolian discards two. Note that, Napolian is trying to make Jack believe he has three of a kind, but actually has only two kings. He picks up another King, but now he only has three of a kind. Napolian resorts to intimidation, but Jack's assistant told him that whenever someone intimidates you, just imagine them in their underware (I can't explain this you'll have to see it). Anyway, Napolian creates a distraction, while he pulls the forth King out from under the table. Napolian turns over his four Kings and Jack turns over four Jacks. Napolian says,"Off with your head." Jack says wait a minute, and turns over his last card which is the Joker for five Jacks. Jack says,"You're not getting any head today."
Just like in the movies! Can you imagine what would happen in real life if all these fantasy poker scenes from the movies happen? All I know is that they better be playing somewhere with a bad beat jackpot because isn't it always someone's quads getting beaten by a miracle card?
Both players were cheating. Napolian was hiding extra cards in his sock, and the dealer was Jack's assistant. Jack didn't have any clue on how to play poker, but Napolian was such a dunce he couldn't play either. It was Jack's assistant that was the card sharp. Now, if they did this in a real Casino trying to win the bad beat jackpot, they both would be in jail. This was actually one of the funniest poker plays I've seen on TV.
Man it's a good thing he found the Joker or he would have been "One Jack off"
vince
O.K. Who can give me a reason for playing poker in New Mexico? Anyone? Where? Games? etc.
Vince.
Pot limit HE, 5&10 blinds. 10-20 HE. 4-8 HE. Sometimes 6-12 HE. 4-8 O8. 2-5 stud and stud8. All at Sandia, at the north edge of Albuquerque.
Nice people, good action, nice town.
Brett
Hey 3 Bet,
Thank you for the information. I hope to be in Sandia by a week from Friday. Then Phoenix on Sunday. Might I see you?
Vince.
I doubt it. I'm scheduled for LASIK on the 23rd. After that I plan on spending my time beating the women away with a stick.
Brett
Best times to visit Tunica to play mid limit Stud or holdem? Anyone.
Vince
Well, as the self-proclaimed Tunica "expert" on this forum......
To my knowledge the only stud games in Tunica are $1-5. I am not a stud player, but I have not seen or heard of any higher games in that area.
Mid-limit holdem (up to $20-40) can only be found on a regular daily basis at Horseshoe Tunica. 800-303-7463 Ask for Anita in the poker room for room reservations. Tell her you "know" me.
Diane
Diane Darling,
Thank you for the info. Oh my, why are all the Good Ones Taken. Lucky Green Bay!
Vince
Vince,
"Best times" would be June 22-24. I'll give you the guided tour.
Diane is right about the stud games. I've not seen higher stud except during one of the tournaments. Hold'em red chip games are common at the Horseshoe and very scarce anywhere else.
Going thru St. Louis on the way to Tunica?
Abe
In terms of best times, I would encourage you to go over any Holiday weekend. Games are great and lots of weaker recreational players seem to come out during the work holiday weekends.
But in all honesty, all weekends are good down there.
Diane
Abe,
St. Louis is not on the agenda. Sorry. Maybe on the way back. I would love to meet you in St Louis, Louis ah Abe. I will probably be in Tunica next tuesday and Wednesday.
Vince
Have I played with you before Abe? Been playing at Station fairly regularly. I'm gonna be in Tunica this weekend. When I get back into town, we can talk.
Perry
Perry,
We probably have been at the same table at St Charles. Ask Carol about me. ---- You know,---- THE Carol!
Hope you have good results at the Grand. I never really liked the room or the players there. I'll be at the Shoe, the Gold Strike, and SAMS. Be sure to check out the "after midnight" game at the Gold Strike.
Abe
Any place to play poker on highway 40 between Tunica Miss and Phoenix Az? Anyone.
vince.
Vince,
There is life outside poker on this stretch of road. Go to a rattlesnake ranch! Brand some cattle! And when you are sick of that, head straight to Los Angeles where the real poker action is. Email me when you get here.
Regards,
Rick
LA has more action, but, since Casino AZ went non-smoking, it is hardly better. AZ has cheaper rent; $5 per half hour on any red (yellow to you) chip game, cheaper and nicer accomodations; Pima Inn, $39, safe, easy parking, and Phoenix is a great town.
Besides, what good does it do to be non-smoking in LA when the smog is gonna kill you anyway?
Brett
3 Bet,
I really just want to get Vince here so I'm not the only Italian in the poker clubs.
Rick
Rick,
You and John Feeney are number one on my California list of people to look up. You may ask how you both can be number 1. New Math! How else! Hey, my buddy Dangerous said that there are no more yellow chip games at Crystal Park. Is this true? I was told (by the poker room manager) that I could just about get a free room (9.95) if I gave them 4 hours of yellow chip play. Is that not the case? Does play at HP count for CP hotel rates. See what you can do. Huh, old buddy. After all we both grew up not knowing John Cole. That should count for something!
vince.
Vince,
John is down in San Diego but comes up about once a week lately to play the bigger games. And there are others (besides me) that want to meet the infamous Vince but I'll elaborate later.
Yellow chip at Crystal Park is not as strong as it once was (per the grapevine) but it is one of the few places I haven't played at recently other than the Normandie so I don't know first hand. I'll try to remember to ask around tomorrow.
Hollywood Park does tie in play with very cheap rates at Crystal Park but you might want to pay slightly more and stay near the airport which is very close to Hollywood Park. We should be able to get you in a nice place (such as the Sheraton) for about $45 a night plus tax. Email me if you are interested.
At my place you would have to sleep on the couch as my living circumstances are in flux and you may not like the commotion that goes on over here ;-). BTW, when are you getting here?
Regards,
Rick
"After all, we both grew up not knowing John Cole."
Vince, in some circles that brings you the kind of instant cachet usually reserved for the landed gentry.
But, I had a tough childhood, Dickensian some might say, my only friend an old sailor who wore an eyepatch and a tatoo of the Weeping Jesus on his chest. So, I never really knew myself, either. What's that count for?
(Actually, Rick has grown up not knowing me longer than you.)
John
"So, I never really knew myself, either. "
Aye, Johnny, we never really knew ya! And worse we are for the unexperienced travels!
Vince
There are a lot of wide open spaces ... they could place millions of poker tables there if they chose to. But they don't choose to.
Be sure to let us know when you're hitting Phoenix. The only place you want to go for poker is Casino Arizona at the Pima Freeway 101, Indian Bend exit.
Dick
Dick,
I could have sworn I read somewhere that you had a room for me if I showed up in Phoenix. Be careful what you ask for you just might get it! See you in a week or so. Thanks for the info and offer.
vince.
Come on down to Texas sonny we'll take care of you!!! You downeaster we'll cook up a special batch of Chili for you!! Did you forget the first part of the name of the game you play son TEXAS HOLD-EM!! Just remember to bring your Shooting Iron because we eat what we shoot down here boy!! You might have to explain the rules to some of the fella's down here 2 in the hand 5 in the bush!!!
Only CASH!!!!!!!!!
Long John Silver
Long John Silver,
You stole my line! Why do you think mountain men are the best lovers? They go deep and shoot into the bush and they eat what they shoot! He, he, he!
See my reply under NM poker.
Brett
PS when will you be making this trip?
I recall a casino (Sandia, perhaps?) in Albuquerque or nearby several years ago. They had poker, but I didn't care for the atmosphere of the entire place--it seemed like a giant, noisy, dark tent. I had the breakfast buffet and left. There was also a small Indian casino in Sky City (?)--no poker the night I was there, but they had Blackjack with good rules and I won about 400 as a tourist before the more intense scrutiny began. I think they had small poker on weekends, but this was midweek.
Years ago I heard the pot-limit in Albuquerque or thereabouts was often tough with well-bankrolled pros; but this is merely hearsay.
I enjoyed chatting with you and John very much, even though you did (admittedly) dominate the conversation ever so slightly. Best wishes for a great trip!
P.S. I just ordered Poker Probe--soon you won't be able to flimflam me so easily with your posts like the one about a player who raises only with AA KK AK and AQ (slyly leaving out QQ (and JJ)).
M
Yes, everybody, Vince is just as witty and energetic in person as he is online. John Cole is more witty and energetic in person than he is online. Both were indeed a pleasure to chat with at Foxwoods last weekend.
I walked passed the Nathan's restaurant at The Stratosphere Hotel and Casino in Las Vegas and found that it has been seized by the government for non-payment of taxes. I heard a few years ago that former WSOP champ Johnny Chan owned that restaurant. My question for those who know is, does Chan still own that restaurant today? If so, what does it say about his financial condition?
Don't worry for Johnny, I have seen him playing in the biggest game in Bellagio on a regular basis. One thing to remember is that almost all restaurant ventures are run as an individual entity and are usually structured as an S-Corporation so that if they go belly up, the owner's liability is limited to just what he put up to get the operation going plus any other seed money or profits he plows back into it. Wolfgang Puck has had a few bad restaurant ventures but I certainly don't hear about him running into financial difficulties. Only a fool would open himself up to unlimited liability running a restaurant considering so few are successful in the long run.
Has anyone read this book? What did you think?
The most useful chapters are the ones entitled "Winners talk" and "Losers walk". These two chapters discuss the differences between the mind sets of winners and of losers. Other than that, it discusses the types of players in terms of their level of commitment to the game (subsistence pros, outside supported pros, working pros, etc.). It is clear that Hayano did a lot of hard work in coming up with the profile of players from back in the 1970's Gardena, when draw was the only legal game in S. California. Even though there's no discussion of strategy and tactics, there is a lot of good discussion about the equally important subjects of self control and discipline.
I personally enjoyed the book quite a bit, I thought it was tremendously accurate in portraying your average poker player and his motivation. Even though it was a bit outdated talking about the old Gardena clubs and all...
I was instructed by Scott to post this earlier this morning, but as I am not yet allowed to touch the computers at work (even though I don't have an office and have to work on a table in the middle of the computer lab), it had to wait until now.
Turning Stone was great. I went with Scott and Krister (another friend from our high school game, the one who never pays for pizza.)
We arrived Friday evening. I sat in a 5-10 HE game and was doing OK, but it started getting shorthanded around 11. I'd read John's essays on shorthanded play, so I stayed at the table to keep the game going. However, despite my best efforts, I broke every single person in about an hour and a half, so the game ended after all. After everybody left and I was stacking the chips from the final pot, the dealer told me she felt sorry for everyone else, but it really wasn't her place to say anything while the game was in progress. So I tipped her an extra buck. Scott also went on a rush that night and made $800 at 10/20, but I like to think my $400 win had a little more style.
Sunday didn't start so well. I lost $250 through the course of the afternoon at HE (losing a >$150 pot to a one-outer didn't help) and switched to 7stud after dinner. Scott and I played at the same 5/10 game. He lost $300 and I lost another $250. After getting broken, Scott left for 10/20 HE, but I stayed at stud because the people at the table were morons. It paid off when the game got shorthanded and I pretty much rolled over it for the rest of the night. A typical hand: 4 players, I raise the bring-in with (34)9 and get called by a low card. On fourth we both catch rags and I bet. On fifth street I catch a jack and bet. My opponent sighs and says, "Oh, you caught my jack." as she exposes her pocket jacks and pushes them into the muck. I played in that game until it broke up at 3am and finished the day with $150 profit.
Sunday was boring. I made $80 before we had to leave at 6, but I was forced to endure the mind-numbing chatter of people at my table discussing "strategy". (See follow-up posts for more on how stupid people were.) The only notable things about today were Scott's success at 15/30 and the fact that Krister managed to make $250 at 1-5 stud with a $3 button drop.
" I'd read John's essays on shorthanded play, so I stayed at the table to keep the game going. However, despite my best efforts, I broke every single person in about an hour and a half, so the game ended after all."
Oh, yeah, I forgot to mention that that can be another outcome.
Not bad, guys.
niels can have all the style he wants. i won 2 weeks pay in 3 days of play.
i convinced the poeple in krister's 1-5 stud game that big pairs are money losers in holdem and break even in stud. the reason they are worse in holdem is that each board card has to help someone. how can you win with just a pair?
in the 5-10 stud game some people were whining about holdem being a crapshoot. nothing is worth a raise preflop they said. any two cards win they said. i like stud because it's a skill game they said. my (runner runner) straight beats your (my) trips they said. i did not like the stud game.
i saw a couple people straddle in the 10-20 holdem. the rule at turning stone is that anyone can object to a straddle if they wish. no one ever objected.
i won a 6 way showdown with a J high. it was checked through after the flop. but 50 bucks profit ain't too bad for jack. or a jack.
people who whine to strangers are dumb. one hand i got top set cracked by a straight. i didn't say anything but this super whiner guy with a funny accent had a missed straight draw 2 seats to my left. he went on a big tirade about "why dont i make my straight draw?" "why am i so unlucky?" "why did it have to be a 9 and not an A?" "i deserved to win that pot" "everyone is so lucky except me" i do feel sorry for him. getting his straight draw cracked and all. man, he has it tough. i considered taking up a collection to ease his suffering, but in the end i was to lazy to bother. he really did deserve some consolation though.
one bad thing about turning stone is that they have a list for one table no limit tournaments. so one might put his name on this list expecting to play in one of these events. also, if one asks the floormen they claim these things do in fact happen. but they dont!!! not once in 3 days was i able to play any no limit. oh well.
15-30 was fun. and, if you are keeping track at home, i now have a 15-30 bankroll!!!! which means i am moving up to 10-20 and 15-30 whenever the opportunity presents itself. i have made it out of the low limits. yay!! if i can continue this staggering rate of growth i will be playing even higher ere long. who knows what heights i'll reach by the time i am a legal casino player.
oh yeah, one more thing. krister is a lucky punk and i will get him back for all the hands i should have won during my 30 agonizing minutes of 1-5 stud. and krister owes us all pizza. i think that deserves restating, perhaps even in capital letters.
KRISTER OWES US ALL PIZZA!!!!!
that is all.
scott
> krister owes us all pizza
Who is "us all?" In any case, I think you owe me a steak for showing you the full horror of the low limit games and making damn sure you brought your A game to the 10-20 and 15-30 so you would never have to sit down with us lowrolling flotsam again. I might have been a bit over-aggressive against you, but I don't think I played any of the hands too badly (as evidenced by me taking 2/3 of your stack.)
Don't worry, I'm sure you will get a chance to break me one of these days....
Krister
us all -- me, niels, alex, dan, mark, craig, joe, ted
in fact you owe each of us several. and i am probably forgetting some people. you are ass deep in pizza debt.
the half stack of reds that your ftop mistakes earned you against me during those 30 minutes of hell should help you pay for it.
scott
This was my first experience with casino poker. About three minutes after I sat down, two things became very clear - first almost all the low limit players are very bad, with plenty being terrible and a few who were half-decent. I was used to the tight/aggressive/sometimes crazy home game of the young turks and it took a bit to adjust to the LL environment. Second, the ante/drop kills you. At Turning Stone, there is a dead drop of $3 once per round in both 1-5 stud and 3-6 holdem. The fact that you are paying 1.5 - 2 big bets per hour to the house really puts a damper on things.
Friday : Sat down in 1-5 stud game with 2 other aggressive, half-decent (for LL) players and 5 calling stations. You get paid off greatly on every made hand, but you also get drawn out on 2/3 of the time.... I fluctuated between down $50 and up $50 but I never got a consistent run of cards that would let me stay ahead of the ante. Cashed out dead even and moved on to the 3-6 holdem game and proceeded to drop $70 in about an hour and a half.
Saturday : Started out on the same trend, dropping $100 to 3-6 holdem before dinner. My cards were cold (no AA, no KK, and correctly folded AK twice). I knew I was playing a little to loose and chasing too much, but I wasn't sure how I was supposed to play in the environent. Fortunately after dinner I started catching better cards and playing with more confidence. I left with a $140 profit soon after my AK beat a AQ with the cards coming A-10-x, 10, x and a checkraise by the AQ on the turn. (still down $30 over all) Played some more 1-5 and broke dead even again.
Sunday : Sat down at 1-5 stud with Scott (who was waiting for a seat at another table) and proceeded to trounce him. Actually, I got rather lucky and completed my flush against his lower one and paired my queen door card (with kings in the hole) against his pocket aces. He left and I retained great control over the table... I got to draw for $1-2 per hand and made them pay $4-5 when they were drawing against me. With this plus a good run of cards I was able to book a win of $270. One hand still bothers me (am going to post it on the other topics forum tomorrow) but in general it was great!
Wow, this post is to long, so I think
well, first of all you caught running T's on 4th and 5th. you did not pair your Q doorcard.
second of all, you're damn right you got lucky.
third of all, give me some pizza.
scott
ah you're probably right... I must have been thinking of when I paired my Q on fourth with another pair in the hole against a guy with aces about an hour later... put him on tilt and he donated about $75 to the pot in half an hour :)
you'll get your pizza fairly soon :P my mother and sister are going out of town in about two weeks and I'll host poker night then... fair enough?
~Krister
Oooo look at me, my name's Krister and I have to wait until mom and sis go out of town, I'm a big wuss lalalalalala(said in a pansy, krister-esque tone of voice). Course, If I got beat up by my sister/girlfriend like krister does on a regular basis, I'd be scared to be a man too. But I digress. My real point is that you, krister, do not owe us simply pizza. The time for making amends is past. You've been living in your fairytale world of IBC root beer and pizza for far too long, and it's time to pay the piper. No Krister, if it's to be pizza, that pizza better be solid gold. Or, if solid gold pizza is not available in your fairytale world, at least some good chinese food, now that we know you can afford it.
Vince
Thanks, but I still think you guys should have waited for me. It's not my fault the dealers have trouble keeping their minds on the game. Looking forward to seeing you next time you're in the area. Say hi to Neb for me when you get there. Happy touring!
Mary
PS I don't think I would have called the reraise, but what do I know?
PPS Want us to send you some AAA books? They may list poker rooms. I doubt it , but you never know.
Mary
Mary,
Thanks for the offer but I need books from the AA more than the AAA.
vince.
Why aren't there any jewish faith healers?
Because the ones with any talent for it go off and start their own religion.
About a week ago I rented Lock, Stock, and 2 Smoking Barrels. I had heard so many good things about it from fellow poker players that I had to see it. What a piece of crap it was. Maybe it was just me, but I thought the movie moved extremely slowly and the storyline was difficult to follow. And the poker sucked.
I went see Croupier at the movies last night. Only one poker scene in this movie, but that scene is actually quite humorous. The movie was well done with an excellent main character (Jack, the croupier). The whole movie just goes to show what we as humans will do for money.
One thing I found interesting in this movie is that in blackjack when they doubled down and the dealer had blackjack, they lost both bets. How do you like those odds! Is it that way in England all the time or what?
"The movie moved extremely slowly and the storyline was difficult to follow". Obviously it didn't move slowly enough :-).
I think this is an Ace film. And it isn't meant to be poker anyway, it's brag.
Andy.
"One thing I found interesting in this movie is that in blackjack when they doubled down and the dealer had blackjack, they lost both bets. How do you like those odds! Is it that way in England all the time or what?"
You mean you never of the term European No-Hole Card??
In all of Europe, the dealer deals himself the "hole card" last, after all the players have finished with their hands. If he has a Ten showing and deals himself an Ace, all players' bets are lost, including double-downs & splits. Same for an Ace upcard; after the Insurance bets are placed, players play their hands and then the dealer gets his "hole card"; if it's a Ten, all bets are gone, and Insce is paid off.
Today I was surfing the channels and came upon a talk show about cheating spouses. The path taken by one guest was to bear another mans child as revenge..Well needless to say to my shock the audience went into supportive hysteria...
This truly devestated me... thinking of the mentality of these individauls is less then a grain of sand.The thought of this wonderous spirit coming into this world to be given very little chance of a loving, moral, ethical, stable life.
His likely upbringing will be that of total ignorance, as well being abandoned abused,neglected,incest,etc.No human should have to suffer such injustice, especially when it involves a child with absolutely NO CHOICES.
This in my eyes are truly in every sense the term the VICTIM..
I think what I`m getting at is should we ever come accross this scenerio ,I trust that we will not be as they the masses but that of a singular entity in changing the path of ignorance of those that vehemently oppose that mantality of thought...
this is truely the one time i would more then proudly go on emotional tilt,and it starts now with you reading my emphatic thoughts..
Lets all watch out for the truely helpless...
best of decisions
jg
I went to vegas this weekend with my wife and some of her friends. I didn't play that much since I was with others, but I did manage to get two sessions in. I played the 1-4-8-8 at the flamingo (where we stayed) and finished +150. I also played a 10-20 at the orleans after the Saturday afternoon tournament and finished -100. As I was stuck around 700 at one point in that game, I didn't mind that loss too much. The rest of my time was spent playing BJ, craps and doing the social thing with our friends. It was a nice relaxing weekend for me, and I didn't mind not playing too much. I finished up a little after expenses, and the flamingo wound up giving me a pretty good rating (read Comp City-lot of good comp gaining techniques). They thought I lost a couple of hundred with 50-75 bets for four hours when I actually won about seven hundred with 25-50 bets (modified counting spread-trying for comps, not money) in about 2.5 hours.
Being that we were a big group, we did the tourist thing and visited a bunch of the newer casinos. I found that the Venitian and Mandalay Bay spread 10-20 on the weekends, and, according to the floormen I talked to, the games are pretty much populated by tourists. I've noticed that tourists are usually weak passive and very transparent, whereas locals and other regular players are muchmore aggressive. would these games be a better spot than the 15-20 at the Bellagio? I figure my fluctuations would go way down in this game due to the lack of raising, and my earn would go up due to the clueless opposition. is this a valid assumption? I can't wait to go back and test my theory.
2d,
Nice report. I'll have to check out the Venetian and Mandalay Bay next time I'm out there. I'm always looking for an easy game.
No matter what you think normal tourists do, in 10-20 games they are never quite the passive players you would expect. Yes in 4-8 games the tourists are very passive and don't bet much and do tend to call quite a bit, but when a 10-20 game is spread it attracts the somewhat better players who aren't calling stations. Sure a few might find their way into the games, but also some fairly by the book locals find their way into the games too. Also these games don't go all that long, usually starting up around 6pm and dying out by midnight.
Bumped into this on my Net journies. Haven't had time to look at much of it, so I can't say just what it is. But, uh, here it is anyway.
Zee didn't put you up to this to start driving me nuts did he!!!!!!!!!! Tell him it's working but also tell him I'll be Back!!!
ukwbro
Wow! That "SomethingOrOther" is really *something*. Thanks for twisting my mind.
Has anyone read a good history on the Roman Empire? I guess seeing Gladiator peaked my interest.
Thanks.
Jon I.
Post deleted at author's request.
x
I, Claudius and Claudius the God are pretty much the best stuff out there.
Quo Vadis? (featuring Nero and Petronius) by Henry Sienkiewicz is not only one of the best pieces of historical fiction, but one of the greatest novels, period.
Agreed. Sienkiewicz is great. Have you read any of his Polish trilogy? Fire and Sword, The Deluge, and Fire in the Steppe (I think?). They were great. Good adventure writing, and a pleasant read about Poland's brighter past.
a.
Michael Grant has written several books pertaining to Ancient Rome and its emperors.
Roman Empire for Dummies
i like you would gladly like to see more roaming empires. its just no fun watching a baseball game and the ump never moves around. why, doesnt their union let them move at all.
Where's the best card casino (lowest rake, good security, pleasant atmosphere, etc.) in the LA County area for 5-10 or 6-12 and eventually 10-20 Texas Hold'em?
Gee where do you start? There are so many clubs to choose from, but 10-20 isn't spread that much. 9-18 is a much more common game and the action is much better, go play it at the Commerce. I haven't been down to LA clubs for awhile, but I heard most of them are going to $4 drops for 6-12. Last time I was there it was $4 at Commerce and the Bike, but only $3 at Hollywood and Normandie. At that rate the game is way too expensive, but since 3-6 has an equally high drop it doesn't matter much if you are going to play at all. Hollywood had a 10-20 game going sometimes but the action was fairly tight and it was a 5/half hour time charge so about the same cost as a 6-12 game at $3/hand. The 9-18 at the Commerce was $4/pot, the same rate as their 6-12. Really the clubs are all about the same though in game variety for the games you are looking for so just go to the closest one to you.
Thanx for the info.
I'll be there this weekend arriving Friday night and staying at the Grand Casino. I'll post a trip report when I get back home. Feel free to say hello. You can find me at a HE or Omaha game. I'm the young looking Asian wearing a hat.
Any advice on what I might expect in the Muckleshoot 10-20 or 20-40 games this weekend?
Also, I have heard that it is next to impossible to get into the 20-40 games as they only have one 20-40 game and a long list. What time do the 20-40 games usually start? Can you reserve a spot by phone? Can you reserve a spot a day in advance?
Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.
I was there last Sat night. I got there around 8pm. There was 1 20-40 game and 2 10-20 games. The list for 20-40 had 4 people. A third 10-20 game started at about 10pm. Most people who get on 20-40 list also get on a 10-20 list, as you can get into 10-20 faster, and then move to 20-40 when there is a seat for you.
The 20-40 game they have is actually looser then most of their 10-20's. It is also more agressive. 20-40 is the highest limit in the area and there is only a couple of places you'll find it in, so you'll see the local "high-rollers" at the table. I don't have a lot of personal experience with that game, but i know many good players who don't like to play in it and prefer 10-20 games in smaller card rooms.
Most of their 10-20 games are filled with retirees and therefore are tight-passive, with exseptions made by occasional drunks and tourists. Since there are better places to go play 10-20, you are unlikely to find any pro's there.
I don't think you can reserve a seat in advance or by phone. I don't know at what time 20-40 usually starts but you can expect it to be going on weekend nights.
I hope that was usefull.
I have never played 20-40 at Muckleshoot but regularly play in the games around the 10-20 limit in the area. (10-20 at the Hideaway and 8-16 and 12-24 at New Sonny's). From what I've heard the 20-40 is rarely very good and many of the smaller games in the area are much better. Perhaps check out New Sonny's in Federal Way. Its not too far from Muckleshoot and on the weekend they usually spread 15-25. They also spread 8-16 and 12-24 and all three games are usually very live.
x
I've been reading good reviews for "Croupier" -- a British movie about a wanna-be writer who finds work as casino dealer. Sounds interesting.
Good ending but not much accurate gambling content. It's probably worth a look but I wouldn't say it was a great film.
The movie was interesting but dissapointing.
Also the gambling content focused mainly on the evil side with lots of inacurate technical details thrown in.
D.
For those that have seen Croupier I was confused on one aspect of the plot.
Why did they even need to recruit the croupier for their robbery plot? He would just detect and fight with the cheater anyway as part of his job. The whole thing seemed rather elaborate for an otherwise brute force robbery plan.
D.
I read somewhere- I think on a different message board- that there have been discussions regarding a Rounders 2? Has anyone else heard anything like this?? I'm just curious- Rounders is one of my favorite movies.
its not mentioned on the movie website..But then again i havent checked this past week..
jg
what is that website?
,
Some friends of mine see that I've been winning on-line at Paradise Poker and they want to start playing to get that "easy money". Now I know these guys are going to get killed because they play mediocre. How can I break the news to them without hurting our friendship. These are the type of players who, when I recomended 2+2 books to read, read them once, and now assure me that they are advanced players. They do their best to BS me when I try to discuss plays with them. Maybe there is just nothing I can say to these guys because there Ego's just won't take it.
Anony
simply go lightly and say that its a tuff bunch of players and be careful..that way you simply show concern but not acting inconsiderate etc..
jg
This is the one great thing about Poker. These guys don't know what tough really is. They play with me in a Homegame and probably think that since they win sometimes that they can beat bigger games. This maybe because the game we play in is so good that I'm pretty much forced to play straight forward most of the time.
It's a lose lose situation I just wish they played more Homegames. I'm gonna just let them do it (play on-line), and keep my counceling to players who really take time to study. Thanks for the comments.
Anony
Anon,
Tell them the truth and let them make their own decisions. You can suggest that they buy in for a certain amount, but you can't stop them from trying. If they lose, that's when they are going to need your help. You can't stop them if they really want to do it.
good luck Paul
your thoughts are understood.Truly is a damned if you dont ,damned if you do,
jg
If they really have no reasonable chance online, then you might want to find a way to tell them. If they go there and get slaughtered, you might find that not only have your friends lost their money in a big way, but that they are now unable to continue playing in the home game, where you were winning in a smaller way.
I mean, if you win $20/night/player from them, you come out good, and they only lose $20 each. If they go online, they might lose $1000 each in a short period. This hurts them, and you, to the benefit of only the winning players online. I mean, $1000 might be their budget for the whole year of playing with you, and they could lose it in 1 week online.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
:o)
I watched the High Rollers program on E!. They spoke of an asian high roller who was playing at Trumps casinos in Atlantic City. They talked about Trump being in consultation with a mathemetician who set the rules for the high rollers play I assume it was Bacccarat.Wondering if the math man in question was one of the 2+2 gang? anyone see this, any comments?
Instead of playing regular poker, my poker circle would like to play a freeze out type of game. (everyone puts in $20, winner take all.) My question is how do I set this game up? Antes, when to increase the antes, the min. and max. betting allowed? We genrally play Hold'em, Stud, and Omaha with about 6 or 7 players. If possible we would like to complete two of these games in a 6 to 8 hour time frame. Thankyou for any help you can give me or where I can get info. about this topic.
I would recommend starting with a shorter game than 3-4 hours and then adjusting it upwards if you think that will work. No-ones going to be very happy about being the first to bust out and then waiting 2 hours or more to start again. Make a decision to either play limit or pot-limit or no-limit and start with plenty of chips. Antes should normally double every 20-30 minutes or so.
Good luck,
Andy.
As Andy said, the first few players out will have to be patient or enjoy watching from the rail, otherwise your event will not go over well at all. If the group you intend to do this with does feel comfortable with hold'em, stud, and omaha, you may want to try a rotation freezeout. . .try this format:
For $20, each player starts with 200 in chips. Play 20 minutes of 5-10 limit holdem, then 20 minutes of 5-10 stud, then 20 minutes of 5-10 omaha. Double the blinds for the next hour, then the next hour, etc. If you wish, when the field is down to the final table (or less if you're starting with a smaller field) switch to no-limit holdem until one player has all the chips.
I find these types of home events fun, but like we said, others may not find it as exciting. adapt the format to suit your group's ability and attention span. enjoy!
At cribbage. I have played cribbage. So I have a little feel for the flow of events you can expect. If I am getting pounded on the head too much, I stop what I am doing (and yeah, yeah, look for the cause). But, I never felt like I should quit cribbage.
A few years ago, in Alaska, a friend whipped my ass up and down the road. For weeks.
I never suspected a thing until I began to learn poker. Compulsive/obbessive. Couldn't help himself.
Daniel,
You brought up a memory of the first time I was cheated at cards that I was aware of. I was about 12 and I was playing HTH with my cousin who was the same age. We were playing guts 2 out of 2 cards. Pair being the best than A high and so on. Anyway I'm losing all my caddying money just playing for Quarters. I then spot him shuffling the cards and notice the A on the bottom is gone and I see it in his hand. I snap and the usual fight occurs but it may have been the best thing that ever happened to me as far as cards go because if my own cousin will cheat me than anybody will. I have caught and even tried cheating but I couldn't handle the guilt of doing it the pot in the money was not worth my inner feelings. After being watched after a suspicious hand that I had won I left the game and said never again to cheating. If I thought someone had noticed I would throw my hand away. My cousin and other people showed me a bunch of ways to cheat mostly involving shuffling and other assorted tricks. Although I did try them for a short time they came in handy against a guy who had never lost for 36 weeks. I said I got to get into this game and see what he is doing. Well it was the basic shuffle trick dropping out of the hand before his deal and arranging the cards not touching the top of the deck and he would always sit next to someone who didn't cut. The game would be criss cross and the first card would be a K and the last card would be a K for 4 K's he would do this about 4 times a nite varying the K's with Q's and so on. I approached a couple of people in the game but they didn't want to hear it so I let it go and said F__ Em there all yours Sucker and never played again.
There is cheating but I speak up today if I see it and that's all there is to it. It's everybody's job to police cheating not just the casino's so even if your cousin is in the game treat him with respect but also keep an eye on him if his hands are doing more than they should be doing during a normal play of a hand.
paul
One of the dealers at FW said that they were running a study on all-ins at LV to see the effect of winning when all-in vs not all-in or something to that effect. Just wondering where they were doing this and had anyone else heard of this.
A player at my table went all-in three times and won twice.
paul
I don't know about this, but I will relate a little experiment I tried a couple years ago, my thoughts, and short-term results.
I had gotten to thinking about the advantages/disadvantages of going all-in vs. having lots of chips on the table. In particular I recalled an essay by Mason in which he stated that if you could go all-in for the ante (or ante & bring-in, I forget which) every hand in 15-30 stud you would have the highest win rate in the world for that game. You can't find a game like this, but it got me thinking.
Going all-in often does have its advantages as well as its drawbacks. The biggest advantage is that you will often win pots you would otherwise have been bet out of; the biggest disadvantage is that you cannot capitalize fully on your very best hands. It seemed to me that the first scenario would come up far more often than the second, and that it therefore might well be a profitable tactic, so for about a month I tried buying int the live 10-20 stud and hold'em games with only $100, and the 15-30 stud with the minimum $300.
I got lots of practice at evaluating whether I should go all-in in various situations, but my overall results were very poor. I abandoned this style and reverted to buying in for a comfortable amount.
In retrospect, I think the reason I had poor results was that having short chips much of the time (and small rebuys) made it appear to the table that I was losing and running bad. They lost their fear of me and played more aggressively against me. This is usually bad. I found it much harder to protect a hand or to clear the field. In addition I think some of the feeling may have rubbed off on me too; I felt less powerful as I made those small rebuys and sat there often with few chips. Somehow in poker winning begets winning and losing seems to beget losing.
It was a losing month or so. My overall conclusions were that table image may well be more important than the mathematical edge going all-in may provide, since you can't go all-in all that often anyway.
I don't think that your experiment is very useful for this purpose. With $100 in a 10-20, you have more than enough money to pay someone else off all the way to the river. However, you don't have enough money to get into a raising war and win multiple bets on multiple rounds. As a short stack who has just enough money to get to the river, you are not a force to be reckoned with nor feared, and can expect aggressive treatment without any of the benefits of getting all-in on third street and letting 2 other stacks battle it out, and knock one another out of the pot, while you sit back and watch.
Having 5 big bets in front of you is dramatically different than having 1 ante in front of you.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
True, and the number of times I got down to a level where I could go all-in did not seem sufficient to offset the aggressive treatment I encouraged on a regular basis. It was a tactical experiment, somewhat inconclusive, and not one I would care to repeat.
bullcrap no such study i think. maybe this person overheard someone with a southern accent in vegas say they were doing a study on new orleans and the gambling down there and he doesnt hear very well.
generally though if the guy going allin is betting it the other guy is doing the losing.
question? if i told you i got allin today and lost no money, what did i lose.
I would say that you lost the money ,you would have won ,if you had had enough chips on the table to avoid going all-in.Enough chips to play the hand out,that is.
Your shift key? And maybe a few punctuation marks...
Besides what Dan already said your mind. The real question to ask yourself is "Do You Miss It"
Orleans=Allin
ukw
Your virginity
your breath.
allin is an old saying meaning you are out of breath. sorry you young wippersnappers had no chance.
all in
all in adjective
2. fatigued: extremely tired. We were all in by the time we got back to the hotel.
zeerific does it again
Paul,
This may sound simplistic, but IMHO going "all in" as a top notch limit ring game player is analogous to a very good soldier/marksmen going to war with a very accurate rifle and yet you bring only a handful of bullets.
OTOH, I sometimes will end a day by playing a little pot limit or no limit. Here I am not that good a marksmen, but against a weak field I will take a shot with a moderate buy in.
Regards,
Rick
If I'm running low on chips and I'm getting near my blind, I'll wait until after I play the blinds before buying more.
My thinking is that two random cards in the blinds are much more likely to give me a hand that I'd like to be all-in with (i.e negative implied odds), and the chances are that I'm not going to play the UTG hand anyway.
One warning... the rake comes out of the first part of the pot, so think twice before trying the short stack strategy in raked games.
-Abdul
Where I play, the rake comes out of each part in proportion. Around here, the 10-20 is raked 5% to a max of $5. If the main pot is $40 and the side pot is $100, they'll take $2 out of the main and the other $3.00 from the side. Isn't this the norm?
thats the norm and correct way Dan.
Dan,
In your example I can see how it comes out "in proportion". What happens if the main pot is $100 and the side pot is $400?
Regards,
Rick
it all comes out of the main pot just as if the main pot was all there was. the side is above the rake amount.
Yeah, and that's my point. If the rake is 5% capped at $3, you and your short stack will be paying 5% juice on your action, whereas the other players will be paying maybe 3% juice on their action. As an aside, you will also be winning more pots than normal and paying more rake that way. I just don't think it's normally wise to go short-stacked when there is a rake.
-Abdul
Dan,
I agree that if for some reason you lost a monster just before taking your blinds, it would be better to wait until the blinds pass before getting more chips. "Scott Horton" and I also agreed on this in a sub thread several months ago. But I still don't like to get even close to going all in so it hasn't come up for me (in limit).
That being said, I do think there are many tactical adjustments one must make if one or more opponents are close to going all in. And I'm not sure I make them correctly. Maybe this would make good fodder for a magazine article or a thread.
Regards,
Rick
I just finished the book "Shut up and Deal". Are these characters real people. Someone told me that Uptown Roaul was really Tony Poop-poop, the pooper, poop-it-up Tony. I would enjoy any insights into the other characters as well. I thought it was a really good read.
Consider a Hypothetical room of infinite capacity. The Devil is inside with two unbiased six sided dice. A group of ten people are led into the room and asked if they want to bet with the devil. The devil is betting that he will roll double sixes, and he is giving even money!
If, however, the devil does not win, he pays what he owes, and sends the winners on their way. Then, another group is led into the room, but this new group is ten times larger than the last. Same bet is offered.
The devil will continue doing this until he finally wins the bet (he has unlimited people to keep making this bet with), whereupon he then drops the number of people entering the room back down to ten again.
So, should you bet with the devil or not? He is giving even money on a bet that he only wins 1/36 of the time BUT, it seems that at least 90% of those who bet with him will lose!
What is going on here? It seems to me that the problem has something to do with why a martingale strategy works in theory if you can continue doubling your bets ad infinitum. ie- no limits, unlimited bankroll.
This paradox is a variation of the shooting room paradox devised by John Leslie in discussing the cosmologist Brandon Carter's Doomsday argument. This argument interests me, and I would appreciate any insight as to why this paradox occurs.
It is my opinion that if I were faced with the devil in this situation, I would take his bet every time, but in considering myself as a part of a larger set of people of which 90% lose, I have to wonder if my choice is the right one. Similarly, if I could somehow martingale with a unlimited bankroll and no limits, wouldn't each individual bet seem rational to take from the house's perspective? Somehow, in these theoretical cases, it seems that the real irrationality only pops up when the entire strategy is considered. Why should this make a difference?
Obviously, with only a limited population to bet with, the devil's approach will cost him dearly, much the same as martingale strategies cost their users dearly in the actual world. Still, this paradox troubles me if you ignore the limits of population, etc... IF I somehow were faced with the devil, should I be considering my place in the overall population and consider my chances of winning to be only about 10%. If this is the case, how can it be the case. After all, I am looking right at him rolling two fair dice! I know his chances are only 1/36 of getting double sixes.
Regards,
Brad
If you want to see the actual doomsday argument that this paradox was devised to help discuss, check out:
http://www.analytic.org
There are a couple of good articles on this site.
First, an explanation of the Doomsday argument.
You have a jar (a really really really large jar) with a number for each person that ever lived, is living, and ever will live. You assume that your number is in there too. Picking a number at random, you find out that you’ve picked yourself. You had a 1/x probability of picking yourself, with x being the number of pieces of paper in the jar. Obviously, the lower X is, the greater your chances of picking yourself. Given that, we must conclude doomsday will occur sooner, rather than later, because the more X there is, the less likely it is that you’d have picked yourself at random. The longer the human population continues, the more improbable it becomes for you to have picked yourself.
Just a few points I thought up to counteract the Doomsday argument:
1) The conclusion reached when discussing the Doomsday argument is that Armageddon will happen sooner rather than later. Let me extremely scientific when I say “well duh!” In order to discuss this problem at all, we must assume that at some unknown future point, doomsday will occur. If doomsday doesn’t occur, there will be an infinite number of names in this jar and that makes picking a name 1/infinity, which is zero. 2) Given this, let us now assume that time continues onward towards infinity but that we don’t. Since no matter what point you pick as “Doomsday” there will always be a later, we can conclude that Doomsday really will occur “sooner rather than later” no matter what you do. 3) As you can see, the whole concept of “sooner rather than later” is pretty vague. Let’s elaborate a bit on them. Go back to the example used to introduce the Doomsday paradox. You have two jars, one with ten balls one with a thousand (or a million). There’s only one red ball in each of them. You pick a ball at random and it’s red. Which jar did you pick it out of? Basic math tells you it’s much more likely that you picked it from the jar with ten balls. Ah! But this problem is NOT the same as the Doomsday problem. For them to be the same, we need either concrete numbers for Doomsday, or abstract concepts for the ball problem. In the former we would set up the same problem but say “Doomsday will either occur 10 years from now or 1000 years from now. Which is it?” Given this, naturally we would pick 10 years from now because, mathematically, it is more probable. Other than the fact that we can’t predict when it will occur, I’m willing to concede that this supports the original conclusion. But let’s now look at the ball problem abstractly “There’s a jar with one red ball and X blue balls. Picking at random, you get a red ball. How many balls are there in the jar?” Mathematically, we would conclude that the most likely scenario is that there’s only one ball total in the jar. Now, transferring that to Doomsday, if we pick our name, we have to conclude that the most likely scenario, from a mathematical standpoint, is that Doomsday will occur right now. Bummer, huh? But just because it’s the most likely mathematically doesn’t mean it’s reality. Try playing poker sometime.
The basic point is this: when we’re dealing in extremely abstract concepts such as “sooner” and “later” it’s hard to conclude anything. And when you try to nail things down to specifics, you still have to take into account the fact that any math that you do is arising from such a completely hypothetical situation in the first place, that any conclusion you arrive at doesn’t have to make sense from a logical standpoint because it’s unproveable to begin with.
Dan
In your hypo, you've made infinity a reality. If that's the case, then why can't the devil eventually hit an infinitely long losing streak? Once he hits this infinite losing streak, he'll just keep on losing and losing, while his group of gamblers gets larger and larger. Where would it end?
I guess it wouldn't end.
But, the point is, at any point where the devil wins a bet (and makes up for past losses), somewhere in his future is a losing streak long enough to wipe out this win, and then some. Maybe the question is which is more infinite, the population of gamblers, or the number of consecutive losses the devil can sustain?
In the real world of gambling, bet against the devil on this one (except that I wouldn't trust the dice).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Exactly.
The real reason the Martingale won't work has nothing to do with limits, bankroll size, etc., even in a fair 50-50 game (no edge.) It has everything to do with the fact that you cannot arbitrarily assign an accounting point and take account only after a win. You must consider all possible branches of results and give them all appropriate weight. If this seems irrelevant or simplistic, consider this: it makes no more sense for you to say that the Martingale must eventually win and therefore show a profit than it makes sense for me to say it must eventually have a losing streak, get on the negative side, and therefore show a loss--because that's where we take account according to me: this scenario is inevitable at some point too. It's a fallacy that you can take account only where you want to after a win. All possible scenarios must be weighted accordingly, and in a breakeven game, that will result in zero expected value, even after eternity with an unlimited bankroll, so to speak. If you chart out all sequences of, say, 8 tosses of a coin, multiply their end results by their likelihood of occurrence, and sum, you will get zero...the "expected value." This holds true no matter how long a sequence you toss, and how large a hypothetical matrix you fill with all possible results. You simply cannot arbitrarily define the stopping point as one of the points at which you happen to be ahead, because you never know for sure how far off that point may be, even "infinitely" far off. The longer you toss, the longer your longest streaks for each side will eventually be. You just cannot ever absolutely say for sure that it will turn around- it doesn't haveto. This is why you cannot presume in advance that you will be able to stop on a winning note (or a losing note, for that matter.)
If you are playing a negative expectation game, your results will be skewed from zero by the amount of the expectation, and if you take the trouble to chart a matrix of all possible sequences, the above will all apply except your sum of possible results will be reduced by the negative % ---as expected.
Has anyone read Feeny's book, or the Psychology book by Schoonmaker? What are your thoughts?
I am fascinated by the psychological component of poker, but it seems like Feeny's book may help my play a bit more.
Responses other than "Get them both" are appreciated. Thanks, Tim
Even though its not a 2+2 book, I suggest Psychology of Poker Psymplified by Whalen. I have read the book by Feeney and find it useful as well. However I think the Whalen book is puts things in very succint terms and have benefitted from it over the 2 years or so that I have owned it. Feeney's book is much like something you might get from David, a lot of concepts that don't necessarily fit into an order, but work on improving various aspects of play and also debunking some myths. Read his articles in Poker Digest, they are in his book and those articles give you a very good sense of what you will get in his book.
Has anyone read Feeny's book, or the Psychology book by Schoonmaker
John Feeny's book was very well written, clear and to the point. Buy It!!
Alan Schoonmaker's book makes you think about How you play and the different styles of "Other players". The how/why they play was very insiteful.
I read John's book first then Allan's. I had a hard time with Alan's writing style but when I was done I was glad I had read it.
Best of it !!
MJ
I very much enjoyed Schoonmaker's book, I'm still digesting a lot of it. I think that anyone who does have a problem with playing too loosely or too passively could really benefit if they buy this book and apply its concepts. It is a _lot_ different to most if not all other 2+2 books but I believe keeps to the same standards. Whalen's book covers some of the same ground, but in a different way, and is also worthwhile. His tournament section is brief but very good I think.
John's book is very good too but from my POV a lot of it is specific to limit HE which is not my preferred game or even available here. I recommend it all the same.
Andy.
I have John Feeney's book, and recommend it highly. Not only are there some very good strategic studies in the book, but he goes into a lot of subjects that will help you avoid various psychological pitfalls that many players (even very good ones) sometimes fall into.
My opinion on poker books in general is that you should buy all of them, unless they give flat out damaging information. The cost of an entire library of poker books is less than one big loss in a 10-20 game. I've bought lots of books that I thought were pretty much a waste of time, but then one single paragraph would pop into my head and save me a bet, or even win me a pot, and I was way ahead for having bought the book.
Since I'm available again, I need some help on some good pick-up lines.
My favorite is: Will you help me look for my puppy? I think I saw him go into that cheap motel across the street.
Anyone else got any good ones?
Brett
Is it hot in here or is it just you ?
I always found that a Porsche works better...
-- Is it hot in here or is it just you ?
-- Keep talking. It's gonna get chilly real fast.
"Is that a mirror in your pocket, 'cuz I can really see myself in your pants."
-- Is that a mirror in your pocket, 'cuz I can really see myself in your pants."
-- No can do, my pants already had a dick in there today; thanks anyway.
"Is that a mirror in your pocket, 'cuz I can really see myself in your pants."
"No way, Buster, there's one a..hole in there already."
Dick
My Favorite pick up line of all time. Approach a group of attractive women. Pick one out and eye her up and down with a moderately apathetic look, then say:
Oh well... At least you aren't as fat as your friends.
-- At least you aren't as fat as your friends.
-- [looks straight in the eye] I stopped eating your kind of cheap baloney ages ago, pal.
Tell her about your place in Montana, outhouse, polar pond, mud jacuzzi, initial carving trees, wrought iron cars, and beautiful brush fires that I light. Roasting marshmellows on an open forest.
Guaranteed to get her HOT!!!!
rcp
Tell her about your place in Montana, outhouse, polar pond, mud jacuzzi, initial carving trees, wrought iron cars, and beautiful brush fires that I light. Roasting marshmellows on an open forest.
Guaranteed to get her HOT!!!!
..More likely, she'll buy you a gift subscription to Playboy. The magazine for the man who has everything.
Except her.
I may not be the best looking guy in here, but I am the only one talking to you
-- I may not be the best looking guy in here, but I am the only one talking to you.
-- Well, let's see if we can fix that. [turns her back and walks up to someone else.]
Most women just like to hear the truth -- when it's a compliment. If you find her attractive enough to want to use a pickup line, just tell her why you find her so appealing. Women are always insecure about their bodies. The women I know just love being told that they (pick one: look great in that dress, are the best looking woman in the room, have a pretty smile, a cute laugh, a cute butt, etc.). Of course, if you dress like the prototypical poker player, even the best and most sincere compliment might not get you to first base, so check out the Men's Wearhouse first ;-)
I agree with you. I think using pick up lines are an indicator of inserurity.
....show her the gold chains on your hairy chest...
-- What's your sign, darling? [shows the gold chains on his hairy chest]
-- Wow! Thanks. You know, I had some doubts about evolution theory but not anymore!
How about the tried and true, "If you let me squeeze you a** for five minutes I won't stalk you."
I think Vince tried that one once....
Thanks, Tim
Is this the only line that you can't think of a response to ? Must be the best one then ...
Respectfully (really)
Andy.
-- If you let me squeeze you a** for five minutes I won't stalk you.
-- Stalk all you want, geek. Then I get to squeeze a little fortyfive on your ass.
A buddy of mine has got some of the corniest ones around:
- "If I could rearrange the alpabet, I would put U and I together"...Ugh...Try that one and your Ramsay's may go unused for months.
-"hey baby, how do you like your eggs in the morning?"
...you get the drift...no wonder my buddy is still single and looking to mingle.
Recite to her this poem: Remember...remember M....remember E....put them together and remember ME..
Urban legend back home has it that one character used to favour "how do you like your eggs in the morning" until a young lady replied "unfertilised, thank you".
Andy.
x
-- Hey baby, how do you like your eggs in the morning?
-- Sorry, you can't help me there. I only eat eggs after a night of good sex.
Absolute best of all time:
(for a real WASPy looking girl)
Fuck me if I'm wrong but is your name Yolanda?
(for a Latina)
Fuck me if I'm wrong but is your name Peggy?
You get the idea.
Seriously, this is so outrageous that if you can say it with confidence it will get a smile (and maybe a drink across your shirt).
How bout..."Hey, I just my Viagra prescription filled and I can't wait to try it out"
(to a real WASPy looking girl)
-- Fuck me if I'm wrong but is your name Yolanda?
-- [coolly] Honey, do me a favor and try that line with that big guy over there, he looks more your type.
Go up to a girl, lick your finger, and then touch her sleeve.
Then say, 'Let me take you home and get you out of those wet clothes.'
-SmoothB-
Find a girl across the bar and beckon her over with your index finger.
When and if (and its a BIG "if") she comes over you say:
"I knew I could make you come with just one finger."
OR
Try this one:
"My, that sweater is very becoming on you... Of course, if I were on you I'd be coming too."
[Finds a girl across the bar and beckons her over with his index finger. She comes over and he says]
-- I knew I could make you come with just one finger
-- Was that your finger?! I thought your were waving your dick. I collect miniatures.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
-- My, that sweater is very becoming on you... Of course, if I were on you I'd be coming too.
-- You're into sweaters, honey? I'll let you have the sweater if you be quiet for the next hour.
-- Let me take you home and get you out of those wet clothes.
-- Ugh, thanks, but I gotta get disinfected first.
-- Will you help me look for my puppy? I think I saw him go into that cheap motel across the street.
-- No, that was your monkey, hon. You keep chokin' it, sure as hell gonna run away from you.
Similar to yours - Put this bumper sticker on your car:
WIN A Trip to a Nearby Motel! Ask Driver for Details!
Dick
You know, for a fat chick, you don't sweat very much.
or
"Hey, wanna drink some beer and f***?" After receiving a disgusted look, say "What, you don't like beer?"
Liquid Swords
You're like a prized bass. I don't know whether to mount you or eat you.
Your parents must be retarded, because you're so special.
Your daddy must be a drug dealer cos you dope.
Would you like to dance or should I just go screw myself?
Do you know the essential difference between sex and conversation? (No.) Do you wanna go upstairs and talk?
Hi, the voices in my head told me to come over and talk to you.
If you were a booger, I'd pick you first.
You look just like my mother.
You must be from Pearl Harbor cuz baby, you're DA BOMB!!
My love for you is like diarrhea. I just can't hold it in!
I lost my teddy bear. Will you sleep with me?
(Touching girl's chest) Oh, I'm sorry. I thought that was a braille name tag.
I think I've had a little too much to drink tonight because you're starting to look pretty good.
I've got a blue toothbrush, and you?
Excuse me, could I borrow your towel? My car just hit a water buffalo
I don't want my money back, but do you accept exchanges?
GUARANTEED to get laughs from all your buddies! GUARANTEED to make you the head clown of the gang! GUARANTEED to get you awe & admiration in the twoplusto pages!SMALL PRINT: You won't get laid.
Who are you?? I already can't get it up..
.
I will be moving to Las Vegas Friday (June 23) to attend graduate school at UNLV and also to play a little poker. I plan on playing around the 10-20 limit, usually 8/16 at the Bellagio and 10/20 at the Mirage and an occasional shot at the 15/30 at the Bellagio. I'm fairly young looking (I'm 23) kinda tall (6'2") and usually have a blue Seattle Mariners hat on. If you spot me, come up and introduce yourself. I'd be happy to meet any fellow two plus two regulars. Oh, my first name is Andrew.
Andrew, see my post below about 10-20 games at the other cardrooms (LV Trip Report and sme ???s). Maybe you can do some investigations and make some reports. Good luck in school and at the tables.
I plan on checking out all the games around those limits. I've heard The Orleans gets a game going on the weekend, as well as the places you've mentioned and also Binions.
Are there any others?
The Orleans game goes at strange intervals. It goes on week nights sometimes and some weekends not at all. Call up the room 365-7111 and ask if its going. Basically they have either a 6-12 with a kill to 10-20 or a 10-20 going, depends on what people want to play. Also when there is a jackpot getting up into higher numbers (over 40K), there is almost always both 6-12 and 10-20 going. Strangely enough, seems the lower the jackpot, the more likely the 10-20 goes. Guess those players are just not jackpot interested, although the game is qualified.
The Horseshoe game is often ridiculously tight and the game at Mirage isn't much better. 15-30 is much more action filled so if you can afford it get up to that game.
My favorite way to play is to progress. I figure either its going to be my day or not. I start out at 4-8 for $120 or 3-6 for $90. If I win enough to have 15 units for the next level I change games. I keep working up until I lose half my starting stake or I just feel like my hands are starting to go away. I have made it up to 30-60 occasionally, 15-30 more often. Its a nice little recreational method if you are not counting on the income.
I keep hearing different things about all the games. Some people say the 10/20 at the Mirage is better, some people swear the 15/30 is better. In my brief experience, the 10/20 at the Mirage was better than the 8/16 at the Bellagio (I didn't play 15/30). I guess I'll just have to check it out myself.
I plan on playing only on the weekends and hopefully all the games will be better than the ones during the middle of the week.
I was at Bellagio last Monday night. I highly recommend the 8/16 game if that night is any indication of how the game usually goes.
JohnnyD
And I thought I was the only one in the world doing the progressive thing.
you two should come to n. cal. the oaks spreads from 1-2 to 30-60. that'd take a hell of a rush.
I did it at Hollywood recently, but didn't start at 1-2. Started at 3-6, went to 6-12, went to 10-20, 15-30, 20-40, 40-80. They had PL going, but wasn't going to push my luck that far. It was some rush alright, but you understand that as long as you win in the first hand or two you play at a level you will already be close to moving up. I won about 2 hands at each level for the first 3 levels, almost lost half my winnings at 15-30 before catching a real lucky card...I had J-10, the board was JJ37, one guy had AJ, another had 77, the 10 hit on the end. Since 20-40 is close in level that one pot moved me up. Then 40-80 which was the biggest game in the room. Hey at least I can say I got to play against Mike Caro. I won about $500 at that level and then my cooler head arose and I said its time to leave. Started with a $90 buy-in, ended up at $1800. My best run ever without a doubt. I wouldn't start at 1-2 even if offered, would require two more levels of progression just to get to that 40-80.
The reason I do the progressive thing is because it gives me the chance to do a private tournament in live game play. But there are advantages over real tournaments:1) I have the table selection option. I can choose to be in a good game. In a real tournament on the other hand, the tournament director decides where I get to play and against whom. 2) I can cash in at any point during the tournament. Moreover, I get full discretion as to how much of my principal and winnings to cash in. In a real tournament on the other hand, I have to play until I'm completely broke or until I win all the chips. In other words, there is no middle ground. It's all or nothing. 3) I get to determine when the blinds and limits move up ( in my case this is usually determined by "stop win points" that I have predetermined before sitting down to play). In a real tournament on the other hand, I'm at the mercy of the tournament director. If I'm shortstack and it's time to raise the blinds/limits, I have to go along with it and have to go into "gambling mode". In my own private tournament, I get to prolong the current limit, thus giving myself the appropriate time to wait it out without getting blinded too quickly. 4) Finally, in my own private tournament, I get the sense of security that there is a "long term". Thus, the individual EVs of my individual bets, calls, checks, folds and raises do add up over time. In a real tournament on the otherhand, the tournament ends in 12 hours and my individual plays therefore don't have long term value. In conclusion, by playing in my own private live game tournament, I get the benefits of both tournaments and live games. Specifically, if I get lucky, I can have the big payday of the tournament player (remember Caro:"Anyone who won a tournament got lucky") with the same limited risk (the amount of the buy in). While at the same time, thru table selection discretion and the fact that there is in fact a long term, I get to have and maximize my long term mathematical expectations. I beg anyone reading this post to come up with as many criticisms of my progressive thing playing policy. I've given it a lot of thought and have developed the discipline to follow my "money management" rules and I am comfortable with it. But what are the downsides?
Let's ignore for a minute the psychological aspects of this, i.e., the way that this methodology, and how you're doing at any point in time, affects your frame of mind and subsequently how well you're playing.
This system resembles many other so-called money management systems as put forth like mental giants like John Patrick. All you're doing is upping your bets while on a winning streak, and then quitting as soon as you fall back a predetermined amount.
The wins, or losses, IN AND OF THEMSELVES, have no affect on your future expectation in that game, or the game you play at the next table. Thus, if you're a winner at 3-6, to the tune of let's say $6/hour, you'll find that you win about $6/hour long-term whether or not you follow your system, for those hours spent playing 3-6. If your expectation were $10/hour at 5-10, again I would expect that you'll win this much whether or not you play your progression system.
In other words, I think that come the end of the year, you'll get the same overall result from the mix of games you play whether or not you progress to them, always starting at the lowest limit each session, or if you happened to play the same number of hours at each game, picking which game to play by some other method.
Sometimes, you'll do great in a soft 3-6 game, do great again in a soft 5-10 game, again at 10-20, and then move up to 15-30, find a tough game, and lose it all back. Other times, you'll just tread water all night at 3-6. Still other times, the system will work out for you, and you'll make $1500 in one night starting with a $100 buyin. Again, in the long run, I think that your system has no REAL impact on your results.
However, back to psychology. If you play better when using this system, then it will work for you. If you were to just randomly pick a limit and play it, you might play weak-tight when in 15-30, because you are afraid of losing a lot of money in one session. However, if you win your way up to 15-30 through lower limit games that same day, then maybe you won't feel any psychological money pressure, and you'll play better.
In the long run, I would learn to play my best game no matter what the limit or what my currect "standing" for the day was. I would then pick the most profitable game and limit in the room that was within reason given my bankroll limitations, and play it until it was time to quit, or until another game had a higher estimated EV, or until no game in the room had a sufficiently high estimated EV.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Thanks but I am fully aware of the long term EV aspects. That is, at the end of the year I know I will ultimately earn whatever I deserve to earn mathematical expectationwise from every limit that I play at. My point is that by using this "silly" money management system, I am giving myself the extra possibility of a tournament player's big payday if I get as short term lucky as the typical tourney winner. In addition,I have my proven positive long term EV to fall back on. If I don't get lucky enough to hit my "stop win points", I'm perfectly capable of a tight aggressive grind at the initial limit. I never tilt. If all I do is grind at "my limit" I'll never be able to make a tourney player's short term killing. Let's face it, there is such thing as short term luck. Obviously, it can never be predicted because of the random nature of card distribution. But, and this is the whole point behind the system, if by chance I get extremely lucky, by following the system, I could get a lot of extra cash (more than my bankroll deserves) in the short run. By the way, if my stop win point gets hit but the next limit up games are not a "good games", I never move up. I'll just eye those games while content to grind at the current limit. What I'm really trying to do with this "silly" money management progressive private tournament is to guarantee myself a long term win (thru both selective table selection and optimal tight aggressive play) while giving myself the chance to get the lucky tournament player's short term luck created payday. In a way, I'm really trying to get the best of both worlds. I never tilt and I always play my best game regardless of whether I'm playing too low relative to my comfort zone or too high relative to my comfort zone. Again, I beg the readers of these "silly" money management posts to give me as many criticisms as possible. I wanna see as many leaks as possible in this system that I am playing. In the final analysis, what this system does is to make make a "plodder" who selectively and in a low risk way also is an "adventurer". I've never let my thoughts about this system be public due to the fact that "silly" money management is a taboo subject, until now.
Well I find the reason why it works best is that no matter how much you can say you are unemotional, ie play the same game regardless of conditions...the truth is you do not. When I am moving up through the limits, I am playing a confident game. I am more aggressive and reading players better because of it. When you bet and raise more, you force action on your opponents and therefore can get a better read on them. Also what Mike Caro says is really true, when you are winning pots opponents start to fear you. You start getting them to fold in the face of your bets. They stop calling with overcards and small pairs. Sometimes this is bad for your expectation, but not by much and for the purposes of this method you would rather have pots as long as the penalty is fairly small.
I do not necessarily select the best games when I do it because I truly take it as a "lucky day" proposition. My mindframe is very positive and it shows up in my play. If I go home and think about it and try to return in the next day I might start playing too tight since I will be playing higher than usual and also because its real easy to say "screw it" and just keep the winnings and not continue.
The biggest drawback to me is clearly the lack of hours you will get in at the tables. Those days it seems to be running for you, you will quickly progress up the scale. I never have had a day where I grinded it out at each level. I might grind it out at one level and a few times at two, but every successful run has included at least a few levels where I quickly won what I needed to move up. One good pot is all it takes sometimes. After all to make a "full" move, say from 10-20 to 20-40 requires just 15 big bets, and a half move, 10-20 to 15-30 requires just 7.5, so thats indeed one decent pot.
Another positive you are overlooking is that when you are hitting a level quickly as you often do in progression is that you don't give your opponents much of a look at you. When you get up to the higher limits the better players will generally classify you as green to their limit and assume it until you prove otherwise. If you don't get scared by the limit, you will be playing a solid steady game and they won't recognize it until you have won enough to move on. I had it happen the one time I made 60-120 at Bellagio, one guy had A-K and put the pressure on me relentlessly. The flop was 3 rags and two suited cards, he fired a bet, I raised, another guy called, he raised again. I just called to let him think I was intimidated. He caught a K on turn and fired again, I raised, that got out the in between player and he fired back. This happened on all three betting rounds, the guy putting on all this pressure with just top pair when I repeatedly raised him. Finally at the river after he put in the fourth raise I just let off and called with my pocket Aces and won a large pot because this guy saw me coming up from 30-60 and thought maybe he could be aggressive and move me off a pot. Well I won that pot and quit after that, winning about $700 in that one pot where I had posted up and caught the rockets. Sure it was lucky, but thats yet another benefit of the progression.
I personally thought about the tournament aspects, but in Vegas there are enough tournaments to keep me happy. This is just a way to maximize my hours when I am emotionally in my best state and minimize the hours when I am not. Sure you can say that I should play like a robot, but I know very very few people do. You don't have to go on tilt to not be playing your best. When you are getting cracked by every imaginable hand, no matter how much you know to play aggressively when the situation demands it, it becomes hard to put in those extra bets. Also when opponents are calling just because you are losing, you have to change your game around and become more passive. Simply put, to me the reason why you play this way is because almost everyone plays better when winning.
One of the biggest sources of conflicts for me is when I have established great control at the current limit (and have therefore created an above average EV long term situation for myself there) but my stop win points (signaling me to move up) have also been hit. Two beliefs get into serious conflict: the belief in maximizing EV in the long run (by staying in the current limit thus taking advantage of the control that I have earned from a certain rush there, which then allows me to gain the benefits of the freecard and semibluff moves more effectively) and the belief that I could potentially have the lucky tournament player's payday in the short run (if I move up). In other words, the "hourly expectation grinder" part of me gets in an inner civil war with the "live game tournament progressive player" part of me. How do you resolve this? Good post. Hope to hear from you.
so maby you can settle a bet, I attribute my winings about 50/50 to mike caro and sklansky, my friend says caro is just full of hot air trying to scam a buck. what was your impression of his play?
I hope you don't mind me jumping in here,but your friend is wrong about Mike Caro being just full of hot air,trying to scam a buck.
I'm 37 years old and have been playing poker for about 20 years. I firmly believe that the many works of Caro,Sklansky,and Malmuth have had a huge impact on my development as a player.
There are scam artist out there,Caro's not one of them.Some of his stuff may be controversial(PRO HOLD'EM REPORT) others may be classics (BOOK OF TELLS) .All in all he has a lot of worthwhile material.
I have all of his stuff,as well as all of the TWO PLUS TWO catalog.I think the two (Caro and 2+2) can do wonders for your game.
Good Luck
Howard
Don't bother with the Bellagio 8/16. It is not a good game. Maybe the only game in the world that doesn't get any better at night, or on weekends, etc. The Mirage 6/12 is much better. If you've got the bankroll, the Bellagio 15/30 is the game. There are usually a few tables to choose from and it tends to be looser than 8/16, especially at night. I'm sure anyone who plays in Vegas longer than a week would realize this. Just thought I'd save you some time. I'll be in LV from October to March. So if you see a 22 year old kid in a UCONN hat sit down at your table during that time, find a new table. He's just too good. LOL. Peace.
James
This is the truth. The 15-30 game attracts about the same number of pro-types and rocks as the 8-16. Only thing is to go with them, the other 8-16 players are generally much more tight than the recreational players in 15-30. After all the 8-16 level is higher than what most players play in CA, above 3-6, 4-8, and 6-12, but its not quite a middle limit game where you run into people that are generally fairly well off and want to play for somewhat meaningful stakes. These are the players that make the game good and they don't play the 8-16 or the 10-20 at Mirage much. As for the 8-16 versus 10-20, they are about the same although on weekends I think the Mirage game is a little better since the better players tend to go to Bellagio on weekends.
Best game on weekdays I ever see...the 20-40 game on Planet Poker! Played in it last night, man it was live. About every other hand someone would turn over a hand you think you would only see in 3-6. One guy was raising often with quality such as 3-2 suited. One pot he won after raising pre-flop and getting 6 callers. He had K-4 suited and caught runner runner flush and took down almost a dime. I don't have enough money on there to play that game regularly, but the people in the game said there are 4 or 5 players just like him they play with almost daily.
Thanks for the advice. I played in the 8/16 and it wasn't bad but like I said it was a short period of time. Unfortunatley my bankroll is perfect for this size game and not big enough for the 15/30. However it seems everyone is directing me towards this game. I'm not depending on poker for tuition or rent but if I loss my bankroll I won't have any money to play. As always I'll have to use good game selection.
Maybe if you time your shots at the bigger games with the tourists in town. As an example, I don't think you would find much good action when comdex is in town since the computer people are most likely the ones who study the game if they play at all (just guessing, please don't flame me for this). I did find, however, that the national finals rodeo brought some gamblin' cowboy types to the tables. When you tell them the game is Texas HE, they are ready for battle. I just happened to be in town for this one year and the Horseshoe game 10-20 and 15-30 was as loose as I'd ever seen it. I'm sure you can discover a few more spots like this on your own.
I'm pretty sure I have played with you at Lil's and think that you will do just fine at the 15-30 at the Bellagio on weekends. I agree that the 8-16 is not a better game. I'll be down there sometime in October; maybe I'll see you there. I'll be wearing the green Whistler hat.
What do you look like? My move has been delayed and I'll be around this week.
I usually play at Sonny's and the Hideaway.
I'm the bearded, balding 35 year old guy with the green whistler baseball hat. I usually play the 4-8 or 6-12 at Lil's during the daytime and occasionally the 4-8 or 10-20 up at the Hideaway, but only during the day as I got two little ones at home.
http://www.autodream.com/quiz/quiz.html
this site has a tricky quiz. i got them all right. thats why i posted it. do you think id post it if i did badly. try it to see how dumb or bright you are.
I got them all correct as well.
D.
I got them all right too, Ray. It said I was only the 13th person ever to do so. You got them all right and David Steele got them all right. How long has this thing been around, anyway?
Here's a brain-teaser a fellow player gave me last year. It is not a "trick" question. I got it partially right after thinking about it off and on for a few hours while playing hold'em, but my answer was definitely not the best answer.
In the days soon after England was electrified, the diabolical Professor Moriarty summoned Sherlock Holmes to his mansion. Upon arrival, Holmes was informed that his sweetheart was held captive in the basement and that Holmes had only one chance to save her. Moriarty led Holmes down the winding staircase to see his beloved held hostage. Moriarty explained to Holmes that his chance would hinge on a straightforward puzzle.
"Observe those three light switches on the wall. Only one of them is connected by electric wire, hidden in the walls, to the lamp that is in a small room on the second floor. You cannot see the lamp or its light until you are on the second floor and have opened the little door at the head of the stairs. You may do anything you like to the three switches on the wall here right now. Then you may visit the little room upstairs. You must then return here forthwith and straightway tell me which switch operates the lamp. If you are correct, she lives; if wrong, she dies."
Holmes thought for a moment, and then took action. A few minutes later he arrived back downstairs with the correct answer on his lips.
There is no way for Holmes to see, touch or physically trace the wires which are completely enclosed within the walls of the mansion. He has no tools to work with other than his mind and body.
I had never heard this puzzle before. Anyone who has heard it please refrain from giving the answer. Everyone else who thinks they might have solved it is welcome to post their answer.
*
How about this....flip any two of the switches on. Leave on for a while. Then turn either on off. Go to the room....if the light is on, then you know it the one you left on. If the light is off, but the bulb is warm, then it's the one you turned on, but turned back off. If the light is not on and the bulb is not warm, then it's the other one.
JohnnyD
You got it . That was fast!
my answer assumes that the lamp is off to begin with. not sure if this is allowed and i have not seen the puzzle before.
turn on switch "A". leave on for several minutes. turn off switch "A", turn on switch "B" and immediately visit the room on the second floor. if the light is on, then obviously switch "B" operates it. if it is dark but the light bulb is still warm, switch "A" operates it. if it is dark and the light bulb is not warm, then switch "C" is the one.
if my assumption is incorrect then it's back to the drawing board for me.
*
I got them all wrong except the SHEEP question but you knew that Zeee!!!!!!!!
High Boots And A Leather Strap
ukw
I want a recount on that birthday question ...
Andy.
go to any of the lateral thinking sites and you`ll get many thought proviking puzzles at various degrees of difficulty...
also go to www.brain.com, they have some good simplifed training excercises for the mind.there are some excellent memory and focus excercises.
I highly recommend these sites
I find msn.com a very good search engine. Are there any others that excel ......
jg
Has anyone seen this one?
I got them all right also. Does it always say "Only 13 people have ever scored this high?"
They would be alot tougher if they interspersed normal thinking questions in with the lateral thinking ones.
OTOH, I failed with the lightbulb question entirely (I was too tempted to read the answer before I thought about it - I have a weak character). :-)
David
Yup, I got that Divide 30 by 1/2 question wrong and the Moses question. I guess I'll have to work on my math and religion. But, they did say that my love live would improve.
I just came back from the opening party at the Hustler Casino. The place is beautiful and should become a great card club.
mason give us more details please
jg
CV
I can't tell you much more since I didn't stay for the start of the games. I also was told, and I don't know how accurate this is is that Flint's attorney Issacman is the official owner and license holder, and that Flint is the landlord.
U U
.
v
Possibly the best double entendre I have ever seen.
-- What are they spreading?
David, you were supposed to answer
--..The maximum!
..
Does the place show any trace of the utter lack of taste that characterizes his magazines, or is it someplace I could take my girlfriend? Also, are the games, time charges, etc. in line with what the rest of the LA clubs offer/charge (i.e. same old crap/too much)? (You'd think he would name the casino something else. In popular culture the name "Hustler" virtually STANDS for drastically bad taste. He would have been better off naming it something like, oh, say, the Vomitorium.)
Well think about this. In the world, Hard Rock stands for loud emporiums of souvenirs and tacky displays of memorabilia. In Las Vegas, there is no shortage of such things as everyone knows. Well in Las Vegas Hard Rock created THE place for the hottest men and women to come out and party. Therefore despite what you might think of something in somewhat stereotypical terms, maybe you should expect a little more.
Larry Flynt is a shrewd businessman who has gone into what clearly is a cutthroat business with tons of competition and succeeded with a distinct brand name that is easily recognizable. Whether you like his product or not, he would be an absolute fool to pass the name recognition he is accorded in the world and name his casino anything else. When it all comes down to it, his casino is about attracting more people to come out and play poker in a CA cardroom, simple at that. There is a huge market of people that have played poker in a non-casino/cardroom atmosphere that could potentially be good customers. By using a recognizable name to get them to play is nothing but good for the industry. He obviously can't do anything that risque in his card club because its a heavily licensed and regulated business and he would never get approval for any of the wild ideas people might have. Hell considering the images it conjures up I doubt he could even hire the best looking women to work there because they would be afraid of what the customers might do or think of them. In the end its a business and since this is a very wise businessman he is going to make his decisions based on this business alone. From what I have heard he has done very well in providing an atmosphere unmatched in the cardroom world and he should be judged for this only when it comes to his cardroom, not what his other businesses are.
I was there on Saturday, the third night it was open. It is not a very big card room. I was playing 3-6 and the brush told me there were only four tables of 3-6. It took me about half an hour to get a seat. One person I know had to wait over an hour. They don't have the room to start new games when the list is long. It is a nice enough looking interior. The sports bar is great looking with lots of TV screens (plasma).
There is some work to be done. The food service was terribly slow and many people complained about that. On the way in, someone told me the food was not very good. I had a sandwich just to be safe. The consensus was that the food needs improvement.
One lady at my table ordered a plate of chicken drumettes. They were covered with a thick red sauce and they are a finger food. Not the dish I would serve to people playing cards. She had a heck of a time keeping the stuff off her hands so she could handle the cards without making a mess of them.
I had read that instead of a sign in board, your name or initials would be entered on a computer and the list would be displayed on monitors around the room. Instead, they were written on a paper list at the front desk. I was told that the personnel could not keep up with getting the entries into the computer. That resulted in a jam up of players at the desk trying to get a look at the list to see where they stood.
The floor personnel seemed OK. We had one decision at my table. The floor man was decisive and correct. The dealers had some trouble. Lots of exosed cards and lots of misdeals. A few of them seemed nervous. I still like commerce the best of the local clubs.
The chairs were very comfortable. I played in 4-8 stud, why have that and 3-6? I also played 6-12 Omaha and the chip runner had to go to the other side of the building to get $2 chips.
I got a salad that was very plain. And talking about plain, they must have spent around 20 seconds thinking up the chip design, not many collectors will be interested.
But I do not see how the Normandy can continue with this one being so close by.
Are the 2 new 2+2 books available yet? Thanks.
Conjelco favorite links should do it.
Inside the Poker Mind: Essays on Hold 'em and General Poker Concepts, John Feeney, Ph.D.. To become an expert poker player you have to master skills such as hand selection, position, proper image projection, and reading hands. Yet many players know the concepts, but do poorly anyway. Knowing the concepts is one thing, putting it all together is another. Winning poker is a process that requires a lot of thinking as well as a thorough and systematic approach to the game, and that is what this book is about. approx 275p (paper). #P65, $24.95, Internet Price: $19.95.
The Psychology of Poker, Alan N. Schoonmaker Ph. D. Have you ever wondered why some players seem extremely aggressive while others are passive? Why some are tight and others loose? Why some tactics seem to come naturally to you while others don't? This book is concerned with the way that psychological factors affect your own and your opponents' ability to play properly. This text will help explain why you and your opponents play the way you do. 330p (paper). #P66, $24.95, Internet Price: $19.95.
For setting up this inconspicuous plug.
Boy did I waste money on "Shaft" that new black action flick with Sam L Jackson in it. The script was about as well thought out as a second rate TV drama.
Rich Whitey kills Blacky and gets jumps bail. Blacky Cop brings Whitey to justice along with Crooked cops and dumb Drug Lords.
Save the trip to the theater and rent this one.
CV
Coolest movie I've ever seen in my whole life. Black Power...yeah!!!!!!!!
You didn't say how many times the 'N' word was used?
If anyone has any really good brain-teasers that are perhaps a bit unusual I would be happy to see them. For instance, David Sklansky has occasionally posted some very interesting questions. Some such puzzles may require specific mathematical knowledge while others may be accessible to anyone who is capable of perceiving and analyzing the underlying concepts. I think stretching one's mind is a valuable thing to do.
At any rate, I think it would be enjoyable and perhaps valuable if we posted some good brain-teasers. I posted what I thought was a pretty good one and JohnnyD got it like it was nothing and chipshot followed.
Here is one I am not yet done thinking about:
1. The four-color map theorem, which we learned about in junior high school, states that any two-dimensional map can be colored with four colors such that no two same colors are touching (BTW, we were told that this was accepted as true but was as yet unproven).
2. How many colors are required to color any map in three dimensions such that no two same colors are touching?
3. What is the most efficient construction of the 3-D map that best illustrates this concept?
Parts 2 and 3 I came up with on my own. Part 2 I solved fairly quickly. I am still wondering about part 3.
For those unfamiliar with the four-color map theorem and to make it a bit more clear, if you cut a bisect a pie multiple times you cannot claim that all the slices touch each other in the center. If East touches West in the center, then North and South do not.
Here is one:
The sum of the progressive odd numbers, starting with the number one is equal to the square of the total numbers in the series.
For example:
1 is the first number in the series the sum of the progression is 1 and there is one number in the series. 1 squared =1
1+3 are the second numbers in the series The sum of 1+3 = 4 There are 2 numbers in the series. The square of 2 = 4 The sum of 1+3+5 = 9 There are 3 numbers in the series. The square of 3 = 9 … The sum of 1+3+5+7+9+11+13 = 49 There are 7 numbers in the series. The square of 7 = 49
And so on.
Can you prove it? I can’t say that I have ever tried or could if I did.
*
The sum of the progressive odd numbers, starting with the number one is equal to the square of the total numbers in the series.
Here goes:
We want the sum of the series of odd numbers starting with 1. Now the sum of the integers 1, 2, 3, ..., n is simply (n^2+n)/2. Brief proof: Suppose n is even. Then we can arrange the integers thusly: (1+n)+(2+n-1)+(3+n-2)+... Since n is even there are exactly n/2 such pairs. Each pair is equal to n+1. Therefore the sum of the series is n/2 * (n+1) = (n^2+n)/2. Suppose n is odd. Using the above method we have one extra term, namely (n+1)/2 (the middle integer), and one fewer pair. Thus we add the extra term in to get sum = (n+1)/2 + ((n-1)/2 * (n+1)) = (n^2+n)/2.
We can express the odd integers as a1, a2, ..., an where ai = (2*i)-1. Then the sum of the first n odd integers is sum(2i-1) = 2*sum(i-1) = 2*sum(i)-n = 2*(n^2+n)/2 - n = n^2 + n - n = n^2.
The notation is a bit wretched but the proof is fairly simple. Gauss did something similar at about age 6 when his teacher asked him to add the numbers from 1 to 100 (to keep him quiet).
The solution to summing the numbers from one to one hundred has been attributed to others also. The quick solution is:
There are 50 pairs of numbers whose sum is 101. 50 X 101 = 5050
100+1=101, 99+2=101, 98+3=101....50+51=101
I was playing No-Limit at Foxwoods (GREAT monday night game now two weeks in a row!)(and sleeping) most of the last two days, so I have not really looked at this in depth.
What did occur to me is the following, which shows that it is true. Proving it wouold be another matter.
Envision an x,y axis. You are going to start building squares from the 0,0 corner. The first square is of course simply 1. The second square is 2 squared. 3 is the difference of these squares. The third square is 9. 5 is the difference of this square from the previuos square. The fourth square is 16. 7 is the difference of this square from the previous square. Visualizing what is happening here (or drawing it on paper), we can see that in each case the successive odd integers represent the difference of squares. You could also say that the difference of successive squares is represented by 2m (where m is the side of the square) - 1. The odd integers can also be derived by doubling the side of the next number to be squared and subtracting 1. Starting with the original square 1 and adding the difference of squares successively will in each case produce the next successive square.
These are my initial thoughts. Truly proving it in a mathematical sense is something I might find very difficult (I was never especially good at proofs).
I will have to look at Nakor's answer more closely when I have a little more time: visualizing is easier for me than translating into formulas. I am glad to see someone has posted an algebraic answer because it would probably take me much longer to figure out how to describe it in algebraic terms than to simply visualize the principle at work.
Thanks to both Tyro and Nakor for something interesting.
Uncle Dud used to tell this one. May he rest in peace.
Old Cat
A traveling salesman finds himself in a small town somewhere on a stopover and enters the local tavern, looking for a way to pass some time. He is thrilled to find a poker game in session over in one corner.
'Mind if I play?'
'Why sure stranger, sit down. Everybody's welcome!'
So this salesman takes his seat and decides he will just watch for a while and wait for good cards. He notices the players don't seem to play all that well and the pots are real big. After about 1/2 hour he draws to and makes a full house - Aces over Kings. There is a lot of betting and then it's heads up. He raises and is re-raised, and he raises again. When it's time to show the hands, he lays down his full house and his opponent shows a hand with nothing. He starts to reach for the pot but his opponent says, 'Whoa thar pardner, you'd better look at my hand again!' and drags the pot over to his side of the table.
Well, the winner's hand is an A,9,7,5,4 all different suits.
'What in the hell is that?' Says the salesman.
The opponent replies: 'Whay that's an Old Cat. An Old Cat beats anything. You better go read that sign over thar' and points to the wall. The Salesmen steps over to a dirty old sign that says 'HOUSE RULES' and below, in one paragraph it reads:
" Old Cat "
" A,9,7,5,4 "
" Beats any hand in the house "
'Well goddamn this shitty little town!' The salesman mutters to himself. 'Now I've seen everything.'
The Salesman goes back to the table and sits down again. 'By god I'm going to show these yocals how to play cards!' He starts playing every hand. He throws away trips, four flush draws, nut straight and everything dealt to him, and draws instead to the Old Cat. After about three hours and nearly all of his money is gone, he finally gets it! He's looking at A,9,7,5,4!
'I raise!' says the salesman. It's re-raised back to him and he raises again! The other player calls and he slams down his hand and states 'Old Cat!, I've got an Old Cat!'
The other player shows his hand and says 'I win, partner. I gotta a pair of fours.'
"No, no you don't. I've got an Old Cat!"
To which the local says 'Stranger, you'd better go read that sign'.
The Salesman stomps over to the House Rules again and reads:
" Old Cat "
" A,9,7,5,4 "
" Beats any hand in the house "
And underneath, there is one more line that reads:
" An Old Cat only wins once a night "
it's why i'm not a cat person (looking at my last two months' results, I guess you could say I'm a dog person)
I will be visiting Anaheim, CA staying a stone's throw away from the Convention Center and was wondering where some good card rooms were. I know the Commerce is not that close but its an easy drive up Rt 5. I don't know much about the place. I'm looking for lower limit HE games in the area or an "easy" drive away. Any suggestions?
Thanks, J.
J.
There is no "easy" drive up the 5 freeway with all the construction on the 5 between the 91 and 22/57 intersections along with the narrowness of the freeway between the 91 and the Commerce (John Feeney will agree on this one ;-).
You may want to try taking the 22 or 405 to the 605 and take the 605 north to the Carson street exit. Go 1/4 east on Carson and you will come to Hawaiian Gardens. That is closest.
You can continue on the 405 to the 110 north to get to the Hustler at Redondo Beach Blvd (first exit). Go East one block to Vermont Avenue.
Hollywood Park is off the 105 at Prairie or Crenshaw (go one mile north to Century) and has the best games at mid limit. (I assume you have a freeway map or can look at one through Mapquest).
The Bike is off the 710 at the Florence St. exit
Email me with more questions if you want.
Yeah, I'd basically try to avoid the 5 as much as possible. It's no fun with all its construction (which I've heard has been going on pretty much since the dawn of time). Also, tune in to am1070 for traffic reports every six minutes or so.
I'm heading to Washington DC for a few days, and I was wondering if there are any poker rooms near that area. I'm afraid I have to stress the near part, nothing more than about an hour and a half away. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Bill
I hate to be the one with the bad news but there aren't any cardrooms near DC. I believe the closest would be Atlantic City (about 4 hours one way via bus) I think Trump Plaza has a bus trip something to the effect of $25 per person with a $10-15 cash back when you get to the casino. The only other gambling facility nearby is a race track with slots - I know not much for the card player.
J.
ill be out of touch for a few weeks soon, good luck to all in the meantime. paul feeney can sub for me.
Was electricity cutoff from your remote mountain area?
I can always get something from whatever you write, true and simple. Wish you have a good time.
regards,
jikun
Another food joke!! You know I love "SUBS". Actually I'm leaving tomorrow too!!
Bro Your In Charge
remind me in 2 weeks and if you dont know ill tell why they are called subs.
Where are you going fishing? My pop says that there have been drought conditions in Montana. They are floating the Smith this week and think it may be too low to float as early as July. I remember floating it all the way trough September some years.
Good luck with whatever you are doing.
Flows are already low in some areas. August conditions may be tough on fish, possibly some kills, certainly a closure or two.
fishing report when you come back?
I will be soliciting for donations so we can get Ray a laptop with a celluar connection so he can stay in touch from as far away as Tierra DelFuego. I understand Paul Feeney will pay for the monthly charges.
slot machines? With tokens and thin metal buckets that make all that noise when you cash out?
Soon...I work for a company that supplies them and the orders are coming in fast and furious. Next few months are going to see up to 50,000 slots in CA casinos, almost all of them the type you think of. There is a real interest in trying to keep the old system of tickets and bills for the slots because the cost savings is quite significant, but players want that clanging sound or else it doesn't feel like a casino I guess.
Iam not shure where to post this so I am putting it here to at least offend fewer people.
a couple of months ago, on a lark I decided to take the leap from playing the nickel-dime-quarter game in the dorm and drive to tunica and play at a "real table" I had enough for a rack of white chips and gas and was bored. Quickly learning that the dorm game was much tougher than the average 3-6 table up there, I lo and behold posted a nice win. So I decided to get a room and play again the next night, and another nice win. I left tunica with about $275 total. so I went back and kept winning. after about 4 trips I had managed to build a bankroll of $500. a couple of loosing sessions and the price of hotel rooms and such took a lot of it. but I had 500 to play on my last trip. Friday night went well, and saturday morning before the sams town sat morning freeroll went great, plus I helped choped the pot at the final table of the tournament. This trip looks like definate profit, so I decide to stay sat night. I procured a room and proceded to take a nap. After that everything went downhill from there. I didn't rake another pot the rest of the trip. I lost about 650 between sat night and sunday morning (my saturday morning winnings going to a real expensive lunch and another hotel room). That was my entire bankroll. I dont think I played more than one or two hands on tilt. If anything I tightened up a little. overall. I am up a significent amount of money, just The cost of the trips was so much that I couldn't put it all toward my bankroll. However I have recorded fewer than 25 sessions (all the casino poker, I would consider the dorm game but I cant remember most of them but I usually came out with more than I started, not counting sessions where I still thought this was a game of mostly luck) so I dont know If I am a winning player (as defined as showing a profit over the long term)or was just getting really good cards for a while. Is there any way to know this answer other than to scrape up another buy in and try again, and again till I have a couple thousand hours under my belt. what are yalls thoughts on the subject? any input would be appreciated as this question has been bothering me ever since that last trip. thank you for your time
mississippi gambler,
Out here white chips are $100 so I assume they are worth $1 where you are.
First, a $500 downswing at 3/6 is nothing, especially if you don't take a pot. This is even more likely if the game is loose and a little aggressive. If you want any assurances, I can say with certainty that we have all had much greater downswings.
You should take another shot but I would try to put at least $1000 or so together. You will feel more at ease. In the meantime, study when you can and work on your game. Since you are here reading the forum, you know what books to read. Participating in the forum will help a lot. Since you are in school and your time is limited, stick to learning the most popular game where you will be playing.
If you could identify mistakes your opponents make that you do not make, and they are numerous, then you have a good chance of making poker a good part time source of income. But other than that, stay in school, study hard, and do something with your degree (unlike yours truly).
Regards,
Rick
You don't have to do something useful with your degree. I have an MA in economics and decided to work in a casino.
Rick says,"Out here white chips are $100 so I assume they are worth $1 where you are."
Maybe that's why those Califoria games are so wild. I bet half those guys think they're playing a $3-$6 game. Little did they know it was a $300-$600 game (hehehe).
I'm assuming you lost most of your bankroll on Saturday night. Usually, the small limit games get a little wild and aggressive on weekends. If you play a lot of pots you will experience some big swings even at the low limits. Futhermore, I know they usually jack up the room rates on the weekends in Tunica. So, this puts another dent in your bankroll. I recommend that you set up a time limit for playing. Try this, after two hours of play get up and take a walk for a few minutes. Ask yourself the following questions:
1)Are you playing catch up? If you are you should quit playing. I know myself pretty well. Because, if I am trying to play catch up I am not paying attention to what is going on in the game.
2)Am I winning or losing? If after two hours you are down an uncomfortable amount (you must determine what it is, for a 3-6 game I would say $200) you may want to quit because you are concentrating on your losses. Many players will start lossening there starting hand requirements and start calling raises or raising themselves to catch up, but what usually happens is they lose more money (sometimes it works, but most of the time it does not).
3)Determine whether this game you are in can be profitable and worth your time.
you are right about taking a walk, and the low limit games up in tunica, but as a farely new player, I find it usually best for me money wise to wait on the cards at the wildest table I can find. yes that usually means I cant bluff, but it also means 5 people calling me down when I flop the nuts. Isnt that the kind of game you are supposed to look for? and ultimately I dont have the bankroll(and wont for a long while) to even consider moving beyond the 6-12 game at the silverstar in philadelphia. and that game often being the only one going and 3 hours from any other casino can get some really good players in it.
Yes, wild games can be good, but they can be wild on your bankroll. The best game is loose passive. Not much raising and a lot of callers. But, if the game has a lot of preflop raising with a lot of capped pots, you need to tighten up your starting hand requirements. Furthermore, you will find out how it feels when you get your good hands cracked. This is why I suggested to get up and take a walk away from the table, so you can analyze the situation you are facing.
M.G. - Since you asked this question, go get yourself a copy of Mason Malmuth's Gambling Theory and Other Topics. In it he has an essay, "How Much Do You Need?" in which he discusses statistical fluctuations and bankroll requirements. Like Rick said, down $500 is nothing in 3-6 hold'em. In the wild game that you describe, my off-the-cuff guess is that you should be prepared (mentally and financially) for downswings as large as $1500. That's not to say you shouldn't play - just be aware that there is a significant probability you could lose a bankroll smaller than that.
More advice: watch your overhead expenses! Since you are still learning, your actual win rate (which of course you won't know until you have played a couple thousand hours) is probably not more than $6 per hour. If you pay $50 or more for a hotel room (I don't know how much in Tunica), that soaks up 8 hours of profit! Try to find a way to do this without paying - go on one long day from early morning to late night, and don't stay over ... or find some friends to share the drive, gas, and a room ... or something.
Dick
well the poker room is open...10% rake which I very much expected..theres no jackpot as of yet,thank god...10 holdem tables, from 3-6,5-10 to ?.... they have one omaha table at 20- 40 which surprized me.. theres no 7cs....this to me will not go over well for many older guys
jg
Many years ago I read something which stated that in the Buddhist system of Logic, there are additional classes not found in Western Logic.
As an example, it specified that in Western Logic there is a class of things that exist, and a class of things that do not exist. In Buddhist Logic, these two classes are recognized, but also recognized are two additional classes. These are: the class of things which both exist and do not exist, and the class of things which neither exist nor do not not exist.
Before dismissing this out of hand, it occurred to me that before imaginary numbers were invented/discovered and found to have a valuable place in mathematics, mathematicians might have not considered the possibility of such numbers or might have summarily dismissed them as well. As "illogical" as imaginary numbers might have at first seemed to be, they do have a place in mathematics. Might not a somewhat similar function exist for the unusual two classes described above, and for their analogous counterparts in other logical classes? Might not these types of "imaginary classes", if you will, have some valuable place in the Mathematics of Logic?
I am not formally trained in the above-mentioned topics, but I thought this was interesting and thought-provoking. Any serious replies are welcome. Mark
You are aware of a certain cat of course.
Sure, there are lots of things that exist and do not exist. They exist in the sense that there is a concept for them and do not exist in the sense that there is no discrete "thing" there at all.
Buddhist logic is all about the difference between reality and our concepts of reality.
Take the cutting point of scissors (not the point of the scissors, but the point at which the scissors cut). If you look very closesly you will see that it does not exist. The blades of the scissors never actually touch (at a molecular level). There is no "point" you can really define as the cutting point. It's never in one place since it's position is always relative to the cutting characteristics of the material. It's also possible for it to travel faster than light, so obviously it's no-thing as far as physics is concerned.
But at the same time, you wouldn't want to get your nose in its way.
It's less obvious and more important, but I both exist and do not exist.
Whether they are valuable for mathematical logic, I couldn't say, but it's a valuable concept for human understanding and also for artificial intelligence, I would think (it's sort of akin to fuzzy logic).
David
"The blades of the scissors never actually touch (at a molecular level)".
Of course. Nothing actually touches at a molecular level.
And in the same vein, we cannot really measure distances. There's the famous question about the circumference of Great Britain: you start with so many kilometers (or miles) according to the mapped line touching the water, then you want to be moe accurate and go down to actual level, until you get to pebbles and rocks and where the water doesn't help, because it ebbs & flows and wont's stand still so we can measure accurately, and then down to the moleciular level of the very last rock - where you give up.
x
.
I walked into the Bike's freedom Court the other night and I coudn't believe it! The smoke was sooooooo thick that I had to leave after 30 seconds. I had herd that the room had a ventilation system that was so good that it allowed them to side-step the law in California which bans smoking in public buildings. Well that's a bunch of $hit! Their Ventilation system boarders on being non-existant as far as I can tell.
I'm an ex-smoker, so smoking in the casinos(before the ban)rarely bothered me, but this Freedom Court is another animal all together! As far as I can tell, the only thing that serves as a ventilation system is the replacing of windows with a bunch of slotted panels where the smoke eventually makes its way out.
What I find amazing is that none of the dealers, floormen, or foodservers who work in this smoking room, day in and day out, have complained to the Department responsible for inforcing the no-smoking ban in the workplace(is it CAL OSAH?). Because if the dept. incharge did show up on a late friday afternoon, the Bicycle's so called Freedom Court would be history!
-Dan
maby they only make smokers and people who dont care work in there. besides there are a lot more smokers in this world than anti smoking nazis
bubbafett:
There are more non-smokers in the world than smokers.
While you may consider anti-secondhand-smoke advocates as nazis, perhaps some others might consider those who force people in their vicinity to inhale the smoke as demonstrating the greater nazi-like behavior.
youre always free to leave, I am unable to get away from myself to smoke though. you ultamately choose to be at the poker table or even in the same casino with me. youre free to go elsewere, or ignore it like i do others behavior that bothers me. besides youre going to die anyway.
"I am unable to get away from myself.."
Huh? What in the hell does this mean? Does smoking causes brain damage too?
That does it, I'm suing the Bike! I spend 30 seconds in their horribly smoked-filled room, and I use the word "causes" in place of the word "cause" in my previous post, making me sound almost as inane as Bubbafett.
no it means that I cant leave 1/2 of myself playing poker or whatever activity is in question while 1/2 of me goes for a smoke.
actually smoking does make your brain work better, scientific studies have proved it. However, the same can be said for any other stimulant. and the positive affects that can be directly linked to smoking vanish as the body starts breaking down the nicotene.
I understand that cigarette smoke contains carbon monoxide (because I read it on the pack). While other substances may act as stimulants, CO2 has the opposite effect and probably slows down your speed of thought to some degree.
CO2 reduces the amount of oxygen in your blood and thereby reduces the ability of your brain to function at peak efficiency.
Carbon monoxide = CO Carbon dioxide = CO2
Carry on..........
OBTW, smoking is going the way of chewing tobacco in the late 19th/early 20th century. When is the last time you saw a spitoon in a bar/restaurant? Society is deciding that smoking is not acceptable behavior. Live with it.
Yikes Whoops Thx.
so what are you going to do when society decides your favorite behavior is unacceptable, have you ever heard of a concept called tyranny of the majority?
Virtually every law or societal pressure one disagrees with can be labeled "tyranny of the majority." I just wanted to point out that I believe this whole smoking debate is going the way of the spittoon -- "polite" society has/will decree that smoking is no longer "acceptable" behavior and it will slowly die out. Along with the smokers....... And since I am not allowed to smoke my occasional cigar in any casino that currently allows cigarettes, I agree with a completely no smoking policy.
A while back, as some of you may recall, Niels, Scott, and Krister went to TS. Niels had a style win, Scott had a "2 weeks pay in 3 days so screw your style" win, and Krister had a Golden Pizza/Good Chinese Food win. I think, that said Krister should supply us with this Golden Pizza/Good Chinese Food soon.
Whatever happenned to "you'll get your pizza fairly soon :P my mother and sister are going out of town in about two weeks and I'll host poker night then... fair enough? " ???
For reference, that was posted on 15 June.
How's that doin?
Causin trouble from Seattle, -Joe
xx
xx
C'mon, I'm getting hungry just reading Joe's posts. Not that I'm in for the pizza, mind you, but I can eat vicariously can't I?
All those stimulants got your appetite up, eh Johnny? Have the munchies for a california sandwich?
this bird's gonna fly,
Hey, Krister...Did your girlfriend egg my car?
a.
Careful Alex. Haven't you seen that there are goofballs who take everything they read seriously? Well, I AM a little buzzed... on caffeine, right now.
Speaking of California, why don't you get out here with scott and any other young hoo-haas who might make it out, and see what a great state is all about - I mean one that doesn't just blend in with a bunch of other little similar states. I'll bet we even have better Brazilian BBQ here.
I have only sampled a few of your crazy californian brazilian bbq's and they are vastly inferior to our maryland one. More expensive too. I didn't hit any of the super ritzy ones, but none have yet compared to the maryland churesquara.
that is all.
-james
...did I say Brazilian BBQ?? I meant, uh, Mexican food... yeah, that's it, Mexican food! We do better in that category. Hands down. THAT is all.
I feel that what you call "fuzzy thinking" (a great term for the phenomenon) is responsible for most of what is wrong with our society. In particular collective and individual decisions are made with the following logical flaws: short-sightedness; a basic misunderstanding of probabilities (risk assessment); a failure to make a cost/benefit analysis (usually by means of totally ignoring some aspect of costs; this being done at both the governmental/societal level, such as completely ignoring the environmental impact of a public works project, or an individual taking a better-paying job at the addition cost of ten hours extra a week subtracted from his life, commuting); being overly credulous; belief in the supernatural (include all religions here, from Christianity to the Great Pumpkin); in short, a failure to see beyond the surface level of complex issues.
The above phenomenon would be harmless in itself if the collective "fuzzy thinkers" (who are, sadly, in the majority) did not hold the collective power to alter our destinies and affect our lives and livelihood. So many people base their voting decisions, for example, on the basis of 30-second sound bites; their political views on whatever out-of-context pruned-for-maximum-sensationalism pap gets fed them by the mass media; their philosophical choices on whomever is waving the prettiest-looking banner. I do NOT want to bow to the tyranny of THIS majority.
I would like your opinion on the following two propositions, which accrue to my philosophy. I have been shouted down, called names, sneered at, etc. etc. when I propose these; but I live in a liberal lunatic asylum, so I guess that's only to be expected.
1. The right to vote should not automatically be granted when one turns eighteen; the vote should only be granted upon the taking and completion of a test, the contents of which should be roughly equivalent to a high school civics final exam and should mandate a fundamental understanding of how the US goverment works. Also mandatory should be the demonstrated ability to read and write at at least the eight-grade level (why in hell should someone be allowed to vote on a proposition or referendum that they can't even READ?).
2. The right to have children should not be automatic. One should not be allowed to have children unless one demonstrates the physical, mental, psychological, AND FINANCIAL resources to care for and raise a child. If someone insufficiently mature, psychologically prepared, whatever, has a child, that child should be taken away and become a ward of the state, eventually to be placed in foster care. If someone has (gives birth to/fathers) a child after being warned not to, that act should be punishable by fine and/or prison. Anyone who wishes to conceive a child will first be screened for suitability. (I know this sounds Big-Brotherish but it would eliminate crack babies, welfare mothers, children growing up in alcoholic/violent homes, etc. which is what seems to foster the endless cycle of social problems characteristic of our society).
Interested in hearing any or all opinions. (Just save the insults for your dog or hamster or houseplants or whatever else will listen to then without being offended.)
On Voting:
Surely you must have realized by now that,
in any election of any size that you or anyone else cares enough to vote in,
that the probability of getting killed,
going to or from the voting place,
is higher than the probability of your vote’s
making any difference at all.
On Children:
Doctor J, and many others, meet all your qualifications.
Doctor J can’t find his son.
On Pumpkins:
Hard to take seriously anyone who doesn’t believe in the Great Pumpkin.
kevin
I salute you on the child bearing issue completely.. I myself have lobbyed the government to put an end to this bizarre right to bear a child and then witness this child go through years of neglect abuse incest etc .because the individaul has his and or her right to bear a child. I have suggested for years that ALL potential parents be screened thoroughly and meet strict guidelines or pay heavily for thier ignorance. This is a very sensitive issue for me and I would love to see something in place to make it very difficult for all and any child to be brought into a life of suffering WE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO MAKE THIS HAPPEN
JG
One has to accept the limitations, weaknesses of the human species. Big Brother smiles whenever anybody proposes giving governments this type of power/control. This would lead to the greatest imaginable tyranny.
I agree. Every time I hear someone ask the government to take away an individual's right, I cringe. As much as I abhor the sight of an idiot woman screaming at her 5 kids in the grocery store, I hate the idea of having to petition the government for anything other than a fishing liscence even more.
James
How many people have called you some kind of Nazi, or something worse, for holding this viewpoint? It's amazing how emotionally charged this issue is, when it's really one that should be approached as dispassionately as possible. IMHO, indiscriminate child-bearing--reproducing as mindlessly as rabbits-- is a source of a large portion of the world's misery. I hope you don't give up espousing your beliefs because the pseudo-compassionate politically correct babble keep trying to shout you down.
When you have women turning things upside down for their own selfish reasons you will have a lot of fatherless children or worse children put with sick men so their mother can have a bit of companionship.
IT will get better, nature will see to that, but in the mean time a lot of kids will be born to 15 year old girls and we will have 28 year old grandmothers.
Sad isn't it.
Kevin,
Judging from your closing sentence, I assume you still retain the capacity to be offended when someone flings a few invectives your way (but I won't do it). My faith in humanity is restored. More later.
Regards,
John
Kevin,
First, rather than blithely accept the notion of fuzzy thinking as somehow proven, let's question at least. In his book How the Mind Works, Steven Pinker details how most people fail miserably at basic logic and probability questions. For example, he cites a study in which students were asked to guess at the likely profession and political orientation of a woman who had graduated from a liberal Ivy League or Seven Sisters type school. Many students thought the likelihood of this woman being a feminist bank teller rather high. Of course, this is illogical. In another problem, responders were given the fact that all cards with the letter D on one side have a 3 on the other. Given these four cards:
D 3 7 F
Which one, and you can choose one only, must be overturned to prove this statement? Again, most people fail miserably.
However, Pinker goes on to show, using various principles and ideas derived from genetics and Natural Selection, that most people, do, in fact, understand probability when it applies to their daily lives and make good decisions and choices.
Now, I'm sure you can guess that I disagree with both your propositions, but I'm not going to change your mind through sustained argument. (You might note, though, that given the term "liberal humanist" and its associated meanings, anyone who will identify himself or herself as such would agree with your stance towards religion.) Rather, I suggest that you reread your post and spot each of the fallacies, logical and emotional, contained there.
So, who needs to fight "fuzzy thinking"?
Regards,
John
I would have to think further about the implications of what you propose.
I do think that Logic should be taught formally in the schools along with the three "R's"---it is stunning just how many adults can multiply and divide but can't follow a simple logical train of thought.
Perhaps actually teaching Logic as a significant part of the regular curriculum (starting at an early age) would go a long way towards reducing the "masses of nitwits" out there. Then again, perhaps it would only go a short way. It certainly couldn't hurt. Maybe I will e-mail Clinton.
My initial reaction is that it restricting the right to vote is a step which might eventually threaten the freedom of our society. I feel the negatives of having nitwits vote too are not as great as the potential negatives that could result from erosion of our most basic rights in this country.
But do you feel comfortable with someone, for instance, participating in the election of a Congressman, when the person in question doesn't even know what Congress is or does; how many members it has; the amount of power an individual Congressman wields; etc. etc. etc. especially when that Congressman is going to represent YOU as well? Here is one of the fundamental flaws of democracy---the tyranny of the majority (in this case the uninformed majority). When your vote affects the lives of those around you (and it does) you have a simple obligation to exercise it in an informed and responsible manner. Misuse/abuse of this right should result in its forfeiture---much like the "right" to drive, for example. It is a fundamental principle in this country that we have the freedom to do what we wish AS LONG AS OUR ACTIONS DO NOT CURTAIL THE FREEDOMS OF OTHERS. The vote can be used to do just that, and therefore should be subject to the same limitations that other potentially harmful actions are liable for.
The two party system prevents the dangers you speak of.
I see your point. My reservations are more along the lines of: just whom do we entrust to set and enforce the standards of who can vote?
I believe Einstein once said something to the effect that he had no moral objection to the death penalty in and of itself, when applied to people with no redeeming characteristics, but that he had no confidence in the ability of men to implement it fairly, and was therefore against it.
I like Erin's answer to number 1. Let's face it there isn't much difference between Republicans and Democrats.
>>2. The right to have children should not be automatic.<<
This will never fly and would require a rewrite of many laws covering this. I don't think more new laws solve problems very often. Although I am not sure what problem you want to solve.
>>One should not be allowed to have children unless one demonstrates the physical, mental, psychological, AND FINANCIAL resources to care for and raise a child.<<
It seems likely to me that you have had no experience dealing with a "family court." In what you propose, this type of court would be the final authority and I submit to you that family courts are woefully inadequate in handling what they are supposed to do now let alone additional responsibilities. Believe me I know of what I speak regarding this. This proposal is an excercise in "fuzzy thinking."
>>If someone insufficiently mature, psychologically prepared, whatever, has a child, that child should be taken away and become a ward of the state, eventually to be placed in foster care.<<
Read what I wrote above.
>>If someone has (gives birth to/fathers) a child after being warned not to, that act should be punishable by fine and/or prison. Anyone who wishes to conceive a child will first be screened for suitability. (I know this sounds Big-Brotherish but it would eliminate crack babies, welfare mothers, children growing up in alcoholic/violent homes, etc. which is what seems to foster the endless cycle of social problems characteristic of our society).<<
Actually it is more like something out of Nazi Germany. Sex police come now. This is the typical example of expanding government to solve a problem that government is not meant to solve. I think that if we have learned anything regarding the great society, welfare, and such over the last 40 years is that big government is very ill equipped at solving these social problems.
The thought of governments deciding who's fit for parenthood or who is competant to vote is frightening.
.
Your message is a classic example of fuzzy thinking, IMO. In particular, your suggestion of massive human rights violations to solve the problem of unwanted kids suggests that you haven't given the issue any thought, or if you have you've missed the big picture.
What "massive human rights violations"? Simply imposing a minimum standard on parents is merely a logical extension of existing laws against child abuse. The act of having a child without possessing the ability to care for it strikes me as one of the grossest human rights violations of all--those of the child! Also, feel free to disagree with me, but spare me the insult of implying that my opinions are not well thought out or ill-considered simply because they disagree with yours.
I believe you can take this a step further. Collect all the unwanted, unplanned, uncared for children and use them as fuel. When you think about it humans are our most abundant, renewable resource. And you, KevinL, can be in charge of deciding who is unwanted, unplanned and uncared for. That should make for a better world.
Kevin,
As Dan has suggested, and as I have already stated, your argument is rife with logical and emotional fallacies. This is not an insult; it's an assessment.
You might also note that the very people you wish to keep from the polls already stay away in droves. This is the real problem, not a few undereducated voters.
I suggest you read (or reread) Michael Ryan's classic text, Blaming The Victim, in which he presents one sociological model for systematic alienation. You might also read Jonathan Kozol's Death at an Early Age, Rachel's Children, and Savage Inequalities. Or, simply, you might talk to a few welfare mothers and listen to them, really listen to them.
Regards,
John
The first poorly thought out part of your idea is the notion that passing a law prohibiting people from having children because of what they *might do is merely an extension of laws that punish people for what they DID do.
If you can't see the difference, I don't know what to say. It's fundamental to the very nature of our society.
I don't like the children idea because governments shouldn't have that power. Testing someone before he can vote should be alright as long as that test was so simple, that those who don't pass, failed because of an unwillingness to study something similar in difficulty to a driver's manual.
I certainly have far fewer problems with a 'voter's test' than I do with the abhorrent notion of requiring government approval to have children, but still... A voter's test will punish people who have poor educations, and I would worry about Gerrymandering. Subtle changes will happen to the test to favor constituents that support the government in power. Count on it.
But more to the point, restricting the vote is counter to the principles of democracy. If a person has to pay taxes and abide by the laws of society, then he or she deserves the right to have an equal vote in that society.
While some degree of intelligence and knowledge of the political system seems like a reasonable requirement for the right to vote I believe that there is considerable risk of discrimination.
In fact, if I remember correctly from my Civics class (its been a few years) this has already happened. In the South in the years following Reconstruction when people registered to vote in some districts a test was required. Apparently, the results were not all that "subtle".
Even if there were not occassions of outright prejudice or writing that was slightly geared towards the understanding (vocabulary and presuppositions) of some segment of the society, it would create a more solid feeling of disenfranchisement among those social groups that do not value education. And while there is an obvious argument that these are precisely the sort of people who should not vote and that this would be a motivating factor for them to value education, I think psychologically the opposite is more likely to happen, that a group identity (and one that is not good for society as a whole) is formed and perpetuated.
When the idea of a minimum standard of intelligence for the right to vote is put forward, I think what is presupposed is that voting will be an act that is the fruit of some thought, that is a rational act. This radically underestimates how much of the population that is intelligent, informed and does vote makes their choice on the account of hype, bullshit and pandering to emotional reactions. I'm mentioning this last point to ask, Would it really even make a significant difference in the level of thought that went into voting if we restricted it to those who can read a New York Times editorial and can pass a High School Civics Exam?
Creating barriers to voting rights is a very dangerous thing. Who determines if someone passes? The potential for corruption and double-standards, etc. is SO high I can't imagine that this is a reasonable solution. Not to mention the expense...exactly what benefit would there be from such a test?
If someone gets a raw deal on a driver's test, they have lots of places to go, and, generally, lots of time to retest with someone else. If you show up on election day and fail, where can you go, and how long do you have to fix it before you miss out for 2-6 years?
It would be an understatement to say that these issues are complicated. But forget getting the right answers: getting to ask the right questions is more than enough. So, Dan, to show the complexity here, let me point out the difference between the trials a couple goes through when applying for child adoption and a couple who happens to be biologically capable of having a child on their own.
I'm not taking sides here, because it cannot be done so off-handedly, but the above example shows that, bad as "government" (in other words, human endeavor) might be, we, as a society, assign the role of judge & arbitrator as to who and how will bear children to chance. True gamblers.
Deserves a gram of grey matter, this.
First of all, there is a fundamental difference between choosing parents who are volunteering to raise a child, and preventing people from having children in the first place. The desire to reproduce is one of the most fundamental drives in the human species. Taking that away from someone is a gross violation of liberty.
Then there are issues of genetic diversity. I do NOT want to start selecting certain characteristics out of the gene pool simply because the current political wind disfavors those characteristics.
Then there are practical issues - what kind of test do you propose to make for eligibility? There is no correlation between wealth and quality of upbringing that I'm aware of. Just what criterion are you going to use? How do you propose to sterilize people that fail the exam, and do you make it a lifetime procedure? What if someone who is a poor risk for being a good parent today becomes a wonderful citizen tomorrow? Now what? Do mistakes in your youth carry lifetime consequences, even if those mistakes didn't break any laws?
Then there are the racial issues - Among blacks, the incidence of single-parent families and criminal behaviour in children is much, much higher than average. So any eugenics program that seeks to address this is going to discriminate against blacks. This is not a good thing, and would rip society apart if it were ever attempted.
There is a larger question here - is the 'solution' worse than the problem? This is an example of fuzzy thinking on Kevin's part. He sees a problem, and proposes a solution without considering the negative aspects of the solution. A forced eugenics program would require intrusions into the lives of all citizens. We would have to take time out to be tested, there would be medical complications and costs from forced sterilization, civil strife, 'black market' babies and the resultant risk to any parents with young children, etc. How much would such a program cost to administer and maintain (including the increase in imprisonment for the hundreds of thousands or millions of people that will refuse to report to their local sterilization center). I'm guessing Kevin never even considered this.
Finally, the big capper is the human rights issue. The world rightly condemned China for its birth limit policy, and what Kevin is proposing is much more evil. I'd take up arms to prevent such a law from ever being passed in my country. So would millions of other people.
I am not sure of what China's policy is; my impression is that it contains strong economic incentives to limit offspring to one.
There should be little doubt that present world population growth cannot continue indefinitely if we wish to inhabit a livable world in the future. This is not something that can just be ignored. Population growth may be the single greatest threat to future stability of society, quality of life, and a "healthy" planet. Our Earth has limits and we are pushing them already. People have limits too, and overcrowding generally brings out the worst in people.
This problem must be addressed in the fairly near future. It may be best to address it now and come up with a workable plan of some sort. I don't remember the figure, but when the world's population crossed the 6 billion mark, the projected doubling was given as only how many years away? 15? 20? Just imagine that continuing.
When things like this are left to nature, the answer is almost always a sharp reduction in the overpopulation through catastrophic scenarios. We may not be able to risk catastrophic scenarios in the future because the potential for irreversible damage may be too great (for example worldwide nuclear winter).
A test that is passable by all people except those who purposely refuse to learn the basics is not unfair any more than it is unfair that children or mentally ill people can't vote.
I have not addressed this but I would concur.
David,
Could a "basic" test be devised that would include verifying the ability of a thread participant to post in the correct place?
Sorry David, I could not resist ;-),
Rick
The problem with your argument is:
1) There is no overpopulation problem. 2) China's efforts were completely irrelevant.
I still hear people talking about the 'overpopulation problem', when it's been known for over a decade that this problem simply no longer exists. You're carrying remnants of fear from doomsayers like the Club of Rome and Zero Population Growth, Inc, who claimed that were were soon going to be packed like sardines.
Here's the real truth: Birth rates are falling precipitously all around the world, inluding the third world. About two decades ago, a population crash in the developed nations has resulted in a birth rate that is below replacement levels in most of the industrial nations. Global population was still growing because birth rates were very high in the third world.
Well, the birth rate crash has hit there too. Bangladesh, for instance, has seen its natural birthrate drop from almost 9 children per couple to just over three. China's dropped from 7.3 to 3.6. Was this due to China's birth control plan? Nope. India's birthrate during the same time dropped from... 7.3 to 3.6. This is a universal trend going on around the world.
The U.N. Population Council is the main body that has forecasted world population for the last few decades. Their new predictions show three possibilities: A 'high variant', a 'low variant', and a 'medium variant'. The medium variant has the Earth's population stabilizing at about 10 billion people by 2200. The 'low variant' projection has the Earth's population actually crashing after about 2050, to a level of about 3.2 billion people. And, it's looking like the low variant is the most accurate projection, since the medium variant model has been revised downwards twice since first being published in 1992.
So, overpopulation is simply not a problem. In fact, the big problem may be population crashes that leave us without the manpower required to sustain our standard of living. This would be happening in the U.S. and Canada were it not for immigration. Japan, which has much lower rates of immigration, is facing a depopulation crisis. The population there is dwindling, and may be cut in half by 2070.
Dan,
I'm staying on the sidelines for this one but I have to say that your posts on these matters are terrific. Keep them coming if you have the time.
Regards,
Rick
This is news to me.
This is the first I've heard of declining fertility rates and the projections you mention. Very interesting. I notice you gave the "Medium variant" and "low variant" but did not specify what the "high variant" is.
Is there anything in the info. you are providing that is considered controversial?
What is causing declining fertility rates?
If we are seeing such declines, why did we recently surpass the 6 billion mark?
Further info. and elaboration would be helpful and appreciated.
Sorry, Dan, but you seem to be way off on this, in my book! What am I to do with those "projections" and "estimates" by the U.N. bodies?! I piss on them, the way I piss on stockmarket price predictions and estimates.
Look at the charts; doesn't the history of the stock (or of the earth's population) tell you something? I don't need a stockmarket expert to tell me that the market is overheated and overvalued and heading for a sharp return to historically normal levels. Thanks but no thanks! A cursory glance at the steeply upward graphs will tell the tale.
Same elementary logic with earth's population: We have been doubling the fucking number ever so oftener! I mean, the "chart" looks worse then the dot.com stocks index! Without ANY changes in the fundamentals of our condition, why on earth (pun intended) should I believe that "by 2020" or something the "condition will stabilize"?! That's bridge-selling talk, no matter who writes it.
Look: There isn't any guesswork involved here, at least until 2050. We KNOW that population growth is declining, because we've measured it. The current precipitous drop in fertility rates is a MEASURED phenomenon, not a projection. The birthrates in the third world are now just barely above replacement levels. Again, there is no speculation about this - it's not debatable. We know this because we went out and COUNTED THE KIDS. End of story. Population follows an exponential growth curve - if the fertility rate is 6.7, then one women will produce 6.7 kids after one generation, 44.9 kids after two generations, and 300.7 kids after three generations.
Now, if the fertility rate drops to 3.2, that same woman will only generate 32.8 kids after three generations. And those are the kind of fertility rate drops we're seeing.
There are 51 countries that have fertility rates below replacement levels, RIGHT NOW. But the population is still increasing, because the people who had those kids are still alive. The big drop (or decrease in growth, whichever you want to accept) will happen when the current generation of parents die off. So there is a two-generation lag time between lower fertility rates and real changes in population. But there is really no doubt about it in the near term. Where we could be wrong is in the estimation of future fertility rates, and that's why the three population variants differ. But all of them could actually be high, because they all assume that fertility declines will level off somewhere around the replacement level. We really don't have any evidence of that. Every trend we've ever measured showed a continued decline in fertility rates. Thus, if the U.N. projections are wrong, they are probably wrong on the high side.
The high variant model predicts a world population of slightly over 20 billion by 2200, but I didn't include it because as I said, world population has been tracking somewhat below the medium-variant model since the projections were first published in 1992. I don't believe anyone thinks the high variant model is going to happen.
The reason Earth's population is still growing is because there is a big lag time between fertility rates and population change. Also, improving medical care has decreased the mortality rate, which is causing a one-time population bubble.
The population is aging. All models agree on that. By 2020, the elderly will make up the largest demographic group. And old people don't reproduce. The current generation of young people are not having anywhere near as many children as their parents. This means that when their children reach their fertile years there won't be as many of them. Population growth follows an exponential curve, so small changes in fertility have big changes in population after several generations. We haven't really seen the effects of lower birthrates yet, because the phenomenon is fairly new, and we're still in the first or second generation. But note that the baby boom generation is generally now out of its child-bearing years, and the next fertile group is much smaller. So even if they maintain the same fertility rate as their parents, they will produce fewer offspring.
But don't take my word for it - here is a link to the U.N. World Population Council Web Site: U.N. World Population Trends
Thanks for the link. I'll check the data and compare with some other I have.
Given that your estimates are correct: Does that mean that efforts to control population growth should not be made? Or efforts to reduce the totalhuman population figure eventually?
Even if China's methods were brutal, as any dictatorship's are likely to be, should the world at large leave the issue of population growth to (a) human nature, (b) market forces, or (c) God, perhaps?
No human effort, at all?!
One of the primary assumptions of technocrats and socialists is that the world is chaotic and will run out of control without strong, centralized efforts to maintain stability. But that just isn't true. The world is largely self-regulating. People in poor countries had lots of children because children were an asset. In technological countries, children are a liability. As the population grows and real estate and food becomes more expensive, children become more of a liability.
I always knew the assumptions of the Club of Rome and other doomsayers were nuts, because they assumed an exponential yeast-growth curve. But people are not yeast cultures, and by and large they are pretty good at regulating their own affairs. Not perfect, but pretty good.
I'm all for education, and for making birth control available to those who wish to use it. Measures like that empower people and promote the freedom to choose. I'm vehemently against coercive measures that restrict the freedom to choose.
Dan, I checked out your link below. Why are we assuming fertility levels cannot sustain themselves at 1995 levels?
Here is a quote from your U.N. studies link:
"If the fertility of major areas is kept constant at 1995 levels, the world population soars to 256 billion by 2150, 169 billion of whom live in Africa."
Well?
Because fertility levels never hold constant. This is basic population dynamics. I can show you that if I kill a fly today I'll save the Earth, because if the fly's offspring continue to reproduce at current rates the Earth will be 100 ft deep in flies within 100 years. That simply doesn't happen.
Your scenario is the one that groups like ZPG have used to present their horror stories of overpopulation. Assumptions of linear fertility rates are always wrong. If you had used those assumptions in 1965, they would have predicted a global population of something like 50 billion people today. Clearly that didn't happen. Paul Erlich used those assumptions in 1970 to 'prove' that there would be massive worldwide starvation by 2000, and massive shortages of steel, oil, and other finite goods. He was wrong. In fact, the supply of all those things is higher today than it's ever been, and population growth has consistently under-performed even the most optimistic estimates.
In any event, the 1995 numbers are already out of date, way on the high side. For more accurate numbers, read the U.N's 1998 revision to the 1995 study.
We would have a more interesting argument if you read the logic behind the high, medium, and low variant models, and we discuss that. No one that I know of believes that population growth will follow a simple exponential curve upwards at a fixed multiplier.
Anyway, the trends from 1965 to 1995 show worldwide fertility rates decreasing between 0.5% and 2.5% per year, depending on the country. If you want to play the linear extrapolation game, if we assume that trend will continue indefinitely the birthrate will be zero by 2050, and the Earth will have no humans left by 2150.
Clearly, that assumption is silly. The assumption that current birthrates will somehow freeze and stay at that level forever is equally silly.
Makes sense except:
While your point that fertility rates don't stay constant is well taken, why are we assuming they won't increase back to 1995 levels at some point or even go higher? What are the underlying reasons for the decline in fertility rates? Without knowing this, and the likelihood of such a trend continuing or reversing, we may be barking up the wrong tree.
Given that the population has grown continually for recorded history, a decline in fertility rates may well be a temporary phenomenon. What is going on here and how likely is it to continue? If fertility rates start increasing or revert to previous levels, would you agree that we might have a major potential problem on our hands? Why can't this happen?
Of course it's possible. There's just no reason to believe it. Birth rates dropped in the industrial world decades ago, and did not go up again. There seem to be some good reasons for this - the availability of contraception, dissemination of information about contraceptive methods, a big decrease in child mortality, an increase in the standard of living, the cost of having children, etc.
Let's look at the reasons why people in the past tended to have large numbers of children:
As societies gain more wealth and information, all these forces diminish, and in some cases reverse. In a country like the U.S., children are an economic liability. Social programs reduce the need to have large clans of family for your own safety. Lengthening lifespans and decreasing child mortality diminish the urge to have kids.
This trend has been known for a long time. The real mystery is why birth rates are decreasing so quickly in the 3rd world, where many of these factors have not had a lot of impact. I'll go back and re-read the U.N. studies to see if they shed any light on this.
Regardless of the reasons, the phenomenon is real, and there's no reason to believe that the trend will reverse. Granted, the projections for two and three generations down the road are guesses, but they are the best guesses we currently have. And like I said, there is a huge lag time between changes in fertility and changes in population. If we find that three generations from now birthrates start to climb, we'll have a long time to implement a 'fix', if one is needed at all.
OK---but...why would it be unreasonable to assume that 1995 fertility levels, a very recent date, might not be sustainable? According to the U.N. studies, etc. in your link, that's all it would take to have a world population of 259 billion in 2150.
For one thing, because we already know it didn't happen. Current fertility rates are already much lower than they were in 1995.
You could take any point in Earth's history, and if you assumed fixed exponential growth from that point on could show that the Earth should have been a mass of quivering human flesh within a few hundred years. That's how exponential growth works. In the 10,000 or so years since civilization began to appear, that has never happened. There's no reason to believe it will happen now. But it makes a wonderful scare tactic, because it sounds reasonable on first glance.
Dan, I guess this means you consider nature's way of limiting excessive human populations, i.e. famine and disease, to be more humane than China's policy of limiting births in the first place. You seem to be unable to present a conflicting opinion without doing me the discourtesy of accusing me of not thinking out my positions. Well, I can see how anyone who disagrees with you obviously must not have thought out his position very carefully (otherwise he would see the shining light of your wisdom). Of COURSE there would be negative consequences to government intervention in child-bearing and child-rearing. Every action any person or entity has benefits and consequences; you merely state the obvious. The government already intervenes in the most sacred human reproduction process from when the child is conceived to when it's 18 years old. Society has determined that the freedoms of the parents need to be curtailed in some cases to protect the rights of the child. There's nothing new about this.
Is a lack of knowledge a case of 'fuzzy thinking'? Your understanding of China's policies, the nature of famine and disease, and the effectiveness of birth limiting laws is woefully lacking. Here are some points to ponder:
- Famine has NEVER been caused by overpopulation. Famine is an economic condition. If you want to stop famine, promote freedom and the right to choose for yourself, which is the most powerful economic incentive we've ever had.
- There is no population problem, and there most likely won't be. The global fertility rate is declining all on its own, thank you.
- China's decrease in fertility is about the same as other nations in the same cultural and geographic zone, even though those other nations never had such draconian measures. It would appear that those laws were completely ineffective, besides being completely unnecessary.
Your last paragraph still confuses ACTIONS with POTENTIAL ACTIONS. It's the difference between arresting bank robbers and arresting blacks in general because more blacks tend to become bank robbers. I guess that's a distinction that's just beyond you.
There are many such laws on the books. Laws against speeding and drunk driving are good examples. You are not prosecuted for CAUSING harm, rather, you are prosecuted for (negligently) increasing the LIKELIHOOD of causing harm. It is also, for another example, illegal to fire a gun into the air in most cities even if the descending bullet doesn't hit anyone. My position is far from poorly thought out, BTW. You have no basis for saying that simply because you disagree with me. I should also point out that my position on childbearing has nothing to do with punishing people for what they "might" do, as you put it, but rather to prevent them from doing something that they cannot demonstrate competency to do and that doing INCOMPETENTLY will cause great harm (giving birth to and raising a child). In this regard it's no different than getting a driver's license--society has determined that not just "anyone" should be allowed to drive unless he/she shows that he has enough competence to avoid harming others thereby. You should carefully study the distinction behind absolute, anarchic freedom and the restriction on absolute freedom an orderly society must impose on its members (usually done to prevent harm to society as a whole).
Please describe your 'competency test' for becoming a parent.
My grandparents raised 7 wonderful people, despite not having educations beyond grade 9, and being totally broke most of their lives.
Martin Sheen raised a couple of little assholes, despite being rich and well educated.
Parenting skills cannot be measured. Intelligence and economic status are irrelevant. How are you going to test for kindness, selflessness, 'common sense', and a deep love for your child? I have to point out that a lot of people who thought they'd be lousy parents (myself included) became very different once they actually had a child.
There are extreme cases where I might agree with you - there was a case here in Canada of a woman who refused to stop sniffing glue, even while pregnant. She had already given birth to one deformed baby, and was pregnant again. She intends to have more kids. The state sued to have her sterilized, and lost out of human rights concerns. I sat on the fence on that one, and could be persuaded to either side. But these cases are extremely rare, and won't have any measurable effect on society at large one way or another.
Your original point is still fuzzy thinking because you are missing the prime cause anyway. Yes, we have a lot more welfare kids and kids born into single parent families than we used to. Your solution attacks the effect, without examining the cause. We never used to have this many single parents, so how come? You might look there first, before trying to use the jackboot of big government on free people.
Dan,
Very nicely put. I think that if a stict economic test were put into place for many of us to become parents, many of us would fail.
One former US president raised a son whose profits stemming from daddy's connections run into the millions. He managed, somehow through his own "intuition," to sell off his shares in an oil company three weeks before the Gulf War and just before the stock lost over 2/3 of its value. His reward: a shot at taking over daddy's former job. Yet, the welfare mother who lives on seventeen dollars a month after all the bills are paid is blamed for the US's woes.
I'm reminded that the root word for "scapegoat," is the Greek word "pharmokos," from which we derive the English word "pharmacology." At one time, and still today, we blamed drug addicts for our problems. Scattered throughout our societies are an underclass of citizens who make very convenient targets. They're easy to blame because they don't show up at the polls to express their outrage. And most of us don't care enough to do so.
Regards,
John
I'm reminded that the root word for "scapegoat," is the Greek word "pharmokos," from which we derive the English word "pharmacology."
Are you sure?
Could you, please, elaborate? Thanks in advance.
The problems you mention are real, but I think that the solutions you propose are impractical and could easily lead to abuses of power.
Some friends of mine are going for a ski-ing holiday in Tahoe in December. What I was wondering was, is there enough poker action around for me to go as well and play poker while they are rolling around in the snow ? How far is Reno exactly ?
Thanks in advance,
Andy.
Andy planty of action - Reno is only a short drive and the Poker is super. There is some NL being spread and you can even find some PL. A lot of tournament action is available too.
Hope you like the trip. I do suggest staying away from the "men's clubs" though.
mike
correct me if wrong ,but i heard the peppermill in Reno has one of the lowest rakes in the country.If memory is right its around 2%
I`m trying to remember if it was jim brier who brought it to attention.
jg
I pay little attention to the rake.
I consider it a cost of doing business like sales tax or any other overhead. The usual 5% sort of rake with a max or hourly charge is sort of transparent to me.
But I think you may be right.
I spent part of last March in Lake Tahoe. What a great place! The skiing at Heavenly is heavenly. The restaurants are heavenly (no bull, they are greaaat). And the Poker Room at Harvey's, where I stayed (they ran out of rooms, wife and I got a suite, wow), is GREAT. What a great game 1-4-8, low stakes pot limit, and the players are tourists, 'oh look poker...'. And the room management was very good.
Also, hehe, I won one of two Royals I've gotten this year at HE, and they have a minijackpot for it.
And while I would have love to visit Reno, it isn't so close...after a day skiing I was too tired to drive 1 hour or more each way in the dark over the mountain and why bother?
Mark
If you are staying in Tahoe proper then Reno is not that close---a minimum 75 min. drive over one of three steep mountain passes, with chain controls or outright closure during storms. Really not a viable option. But wait! Harvey's right there at Stateline, is a 10-table room with plenty of action. There are always a couple of 1-5 stud and 2-6 Holdem going, and on weekends a 10-20 Holdem too. Two weekly tournaments, and EZ food comps if you smile nicely.
Sounds good - hope I can make it.
Andy.
I downloaded and installed mirc and got on IRC, but I don't know how to get to IRC poker. I would like to be able to play against the bots, etc.
Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks, Mark
Download this specialised poker client:
http://www.pokerworld.com/gpkr1.html
You may need to change the port in the options menu to 6666
Thanks Rik, I will try it
Charmaine and I thought it was great.
n/t
We went to this movie yesterday, as we were with my 3.5 you daughter, and there are only so many options. While there were funny moments, overall it was just boring. Just not enough funny stuff to keep it going.
When Boris and Natasha are renting a car, make sure you read the sign on the wall behind the counter. That was the funniest part of the movie.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
By popular demand, here's another quiz to sharpen your grey matter. Well, you know what I mean.
A taxi cab was involved in a hit and run accident at night.
Two cab companies, the Green and the Blue, operate in the city. 85% of the cabs are Green and 15% are Blue. A witness identified the cab as Blue.
The court tested the reliability of the witness under the same circumstances that existed the night of the accident. The conclusion was that the witness correctly identified each one of the two colors 80% of the time and failed 20% of the time.
What is the probability that the cab involved in the accident was indeed Blue rather than Green?
The chance that the cab was Blue does not change ("indeed"). However, the chance that the cab was correctly identified is another matter.
The chance that the cab was Blue AND was correctly identified is yet another matter.
The chance that the cab was Blue does not change ("indeed"). However, the chance that the cab was correctly identified is another matter.
If all we knew was how many Green and how many Blue cabs were in the city, then we'd have no puzzle, baby! You're asked to review "all the evidence" and assign a probability on the cab being Blue (or, at least, name your favorite color over the other)...
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say 12/29.
Spoilsport wins it.
Let B and G denote the hypotheses that the cab is Blue or Green, respectively, and let W be the witness's report. By Bayes' rule in odds form, with prior odds of 15/85 and a likelihood ratio of 80/20
P(B|W) / P(G|W) =
[ P(W|B)*P(B) ] / [ P(W|G)*P(G) ] =
[(0.80)*(0.15)] / [(0.20)*(0.85)] =
12/17
So, the probability of the cab being Blue over it being Green, based on the witness's testimony, is
P(B|W) = 12 / (12+17) = 12/29 ie 41%. It's more likely to be a Green cab. The witness is excused.
--The kicker is that, in most every poll, the respondents' median answer to this problem has the cab being Blue with an 80% probability, in line with the witness's reliability and ignoring the relative frequency of cab colors in the city. So much for the jury.
Original problem by Kahneman & Tversky, 1972
(B/W)=Blue divided by Witness's report? God I stink at math!
The proportions of the cabs are irrelevant. The witness stated the cab was blue, so there is an 80% chance that he was correct.
Posted by: Ben S.
Posted on: Saturday, 1 July 2000, at 7:23 a.m.
Posted by: dave
Posted on: Saturday, 1 July 2000, at 7:36 a.m.
17% of the time, it was Green AND the witness will say it was Blue.
12% of the time, it was Blue AND the witness will identify it correctly.
So the chance is 12/29 that it was actually Blue.
Similarly, on many drug tests or lie detector tests, there are more false positives than true positives.
The witness stated that the cab was blue. The same witness is 80% reliable. The actual proportions of cabs are irrelevant. His statement is 80% reliable.
Suppose the witness is even more accurate and he is, in fact, 90% of the time correct and only 10% wrong.
But further suppose that there are 99,999 Green cabs in the city and only 1 Blue!
The witness testifies that he saw a Blue cab. Would you still say that, based on the witness's testimony, the probability of the cab being Blue is 90%?
But if the witness is 100% accurate in your 99999-1 scenario unlikely though this might be - the cab will be blue.
;
This is what I get for spending more time on Poetry and Literature than on Math.
I have just received my order from Amazon.com of:
Introduction to Probability, by John Freund
Introduction to Symbolic Logic, by Susanne Langer
Introduction to Topology, by Bert Mendelson
A History of Mathematics, by Carl Boyer
I's never too late.
Yes, Cyrus, I thought you were probably asking for the combined probabilities, but I also thought it might have been a trick question. I had trouble following your formula so I will plod through it later in my own way to see if I could have come up with the correct answer or not (through a more unwieldy process).
Thanks for a good little puzzle.
*
Lots of discussion about morality on this page quickly loses focus. It would be useful to understand, nay get a small clue, about the enormity of the morality issue before passing yet another quick judgement (viz KevinL's child bearing questions; he at least dares to ask the unthinkable).
So, question for the weekend: Based on what "the papers" say, scientists are on the brink of mapping out completely the whole human body enchilada, DNA helixes an'all. They may well discover some genetic warning about a person being likely to turn into a murderer, irrespective of the person's future upbringing or environment, above a statistically significant level of confidence. They may be able to identify this when the person is still 3 months old.
What shall we do with this kind of hard information?
I would like it to go away. But since it is here we ought to use it for medical purposes.
As far as predicting a murderer - our gene pool is already very weak if bad guys didn't have kids we probably wouldn't have to many killers around and best way to fix it is castaration of all bad guys.
But that won't happen.
I am not sure I want to live in a world where random things don't happen. Maybe that is why I love poker so much.
"Our gene pool is already very weak. If bad guys didn't have kids we probably wouldn't have to many killers around and best way to fix it is castaration of all bad guys."
Let me just say that this is precisely what the medical doctors were trying to do in 30's Germany. The Spartans, of course, were actively practicing eugenics, throwing deformed, weak or otherwise not-very-promising babies in a particular deep cliff near their city, Kaiadas.
This is not a reflection on what you suggest but simply indicating the seriousness of the moral questions which are staring us in the face. The Belgian biologist and philosopher, Jacques Monod, had written about the "unthinkable" dilemmas that humans would soon face, courtesy of scientific progress, back in the 60's, in Chance and Necessity; you can guess a lot from the title. These developments, very late in our history, put us square in the place of God, as we have made him out to be: since the late 50's, we can destroy the world; we may now be ready to radically affect our own species. Way to go.
Difficult questions may arise in the future. However there is still a difference between someone being likely to become a murderer and someone actually being a murderer.
I wonder what will happen if and when it is possible to genetically alter the human code to increase desirable attributes and decrease undesirable attributes. Better health, greater intelligence...who knows, and what might the implications be? Hopefully sciety will still value human rights as much or more than at present and we will not see abuses or Orwellian scenarios.
Might do it sometime in the future. Has already done it.
Anyone here need an explanation of the differences between them? You there in the corner? The guy drooling on himself. Yes...you don't understand? OK, I'll elaborate.
There will NEVER be a universal consensus between all scientists, psychologists, and sociologists that your actions are entirely the result of your DNA. The nurture camp will rise up in arms against nature's argument whenever that is presented.
But let's assume for this argument that DNA does, in fact, entirely determine your behavior. What exactly is "above a statistical level of confidence" for determining a murderer? Do we say "well, the average murderer kills 3 people and we're 33% sure this baby will be a killer so even if we're wrong, the net sum is 1 and it all evens out."
At this point, there's no way we can fathom a test that comes close to 100% certainty. Any hypothetical that involves a test like that borders on the absurd. And anything less than 100% is killing innocent people.
Dan
But, of course, there is no answer. There are answers, but all of them are really just opinions, and none of them can be absolutely right. What would be right for one of us would be considered wrong by another, no matter what the answer under debate.
One extreme would be death of the child. A preferred alternative for the same end result might be prenatal screening and early abortion. Another extreme is to do nothing, and to ignore the data (or fail to gather it in the first place). This would ensure that people are judged only for their real-world actions, and not for their dispositions (or even their thoughts).
Of course, how will your opinion be tempered after your wife/child/friend/etc. is killed by someone who was known to be a likely killer, yet the data was ignored? How will your opinion differ when the test says your child has the killer gene?
In the long run, the answer may be to find "cures" for these genetic diseases, such that the killer gene does not cause killing. However, none of these genes are likely to turn out like blood types and other traits, whose biological result is simple. It is more likely that the same combination of genes that makes someone predisposed to killing might also make them predisposed to beneficial actions, such as quick and aggressive thinking. The cure might alter their personality in non-beneficial ways, or ways perceived to be non-beneficial by that person, as well as removing their predisposition to murder.
Unfortunately, we will have to muddle through these things one at a time, making lots of mistakes.
Of course, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be thinking about it now. Just that those in the debate should be flexible and realize that they are not, and will never be, "right".
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
You are a contestant on a game show.
You are faced with 3 doors, behind one of them is the star prize and behind the other two there is nothing.
The quizmaster asks you to choose a door behind which you think the star prize will be found.
After you have made your choice he opens one of the other two doors and there is nothing behind it.
He then asks you if you wish to change your choice to the other remaining closed door.
Do you take the option to change from your original choice?
I don't -
Yes. Am I mistaken in thinking that you exactly double your chance of picking the star door by switching doors at this point? (From 1/3 to 2/3)
;
For this particular set up, the (famous Monte Hall) problem presents you with a chance to double your chances, from 1/3 to 2/3. That's correct.
You could have a diferent set up, however, like the one usually used ed to bring the point home: Have 100 doors; as soon as the contestant chooses 1 door, 98 doors will be thrown open, showing nothing behind them (or, the "bad" prize, if you want).
The chances of the contestant, if he switches to the 1 other door left closed, will go up from 1/100 to 99/100!
>>You could have a diferent set up, however, like the one usually used ed to bring the point home: Have 100 doors; as soon as the contestant chooses 1 door, 98 doors will be thrown open, showing nothing behind them (or, the "bad" prize, if you want).
The chances of the contestant, if he switches to the 1 other door left closed, will go up from 1/100 to 99/100! >>
Why did the chances of the OTHER door improve more than the chances of MY door?
Bobby Choquette
Las Vegas
Yes, you are missing that Cyrus is fooling us.
Zbych,
Originally you had a 1 out of 100 chance of picking the correct door. The fact that after you choose your door 98 doors are exposed does not change the fact that your original odds were 1 out of 100. Therefore, the rest of the doors had a 99 out of a 100 chance of being correct. The fact that 98 doors are exposed does not change the odds again. So all 99 chances of every other door being correct are all folded into that one remaining door.
I'm not fooling you, as Zbych thinks. And Bartholomew explained it perfectly..
Another tip to make you understand the Monte Hall paradox (God, this is déjà vu! We had this in the blackjack forums ages ago):
Suppose you're the contestant. The presenter announces to you the procedure with the 100 doors. He says that as soon as you pick one door, right the next minute they will throw open 98 empty doors! So, before you choose you think, "Well, I'm gonna choose one random door. OK that's a 1 out of 100 shot. But, wait, if, no matter what I choose, they're gonna throw open 98 empty doors, that's sorta like leading me to the correct door! Or, at least, a door with much much more chances of being the right one than my random choice."
"Also, if I was to pick randomly door B here instead of door A, they would probably still throw open 98 doors and leave that sneaky door closed! Hmmm...."
"So the best strategy is for me to make them throw open 98 empty doors and to lead me to the right one. And how do I do that? I got it: I will pick a door randomly and immediately switch to the one door left closed after they open the others!.."
Yes, I got it . I was wrong.
Zbych,
From a math stand point, I don't see how it matter whether you stay with your original pick or change. You had a 1 out of 3 chance to begin with. Now you have a 50/50. So, you have the same chance either way.
JohnnyD
"From a math stand point, I don't see how it matter whether you stay with your original pick or change. You had a 1 out of 3 chance to begin with. Now you have a 50/50. So, you have the same chance either way."
Suppose another person, you, was to walk into the TV studio where this takes place. You know nothing of what went on upto this moment. You only see 2 closed doors. You have no idea which door was the one the contestant picked and which is the one left closed by the TV presenter. You're asked to choose which door has a prize behind it. Then, and only then, under these conditions, you're right: the chances are 50/50.
Otherwise, the correct response is to switch doors: check my "No fooling" post for the thought process towards the seeming paradox's solution.
I didn't say there was no logical reason to pick the other door. I said it was 50/50 from a math stand point and nothing in your "No fooling" post disproves what I said.
JohnnyD
From a math standpoint (and Probability Theory does belong in the realm of Mathematics), the probability of the contestant's first choice being the right one is still 1/n, where n is the total number of doors; the probability of the door left unopened to be the right one is (n-1)/n.
The only premise in the problem that needs to be stated clearly is that the host will always open an empty door after the contestant makes his choice. As Dr Diaconis said in the early 90's, the solution lies upon stating clearly the host's intentions. Meaning, that always switching is the right choice, based on the condition that no matter which door you pick initially, Mr Hall will always open for you an empty one.
Think it a bit through again and you'll see. All the info is in this thread. And this is the math:
The a priori probability that the prize is behind door X, P(X) = 1/3The probability that Monty Hall opens door B if the prize were behind A, P(Monty opens B|A) = 1/2
The probability that Monty Hall opens door B if the prize were behind B, P(Monty opens B|B) = 0
The probability that Monty Hall opens door B if the prize were behind C, P(Monty opens B|C) = 1
The probability that Month Hall opens door B is then
p(Monty opens B) = p(A)*p(M.o. B|A) + p(B)*p(M.o. B|B) + p(C)*p(M.o. B|C)
= 1/6 + 0 + 1/3 = 1/2
Then, by Bayes' Theorem,
P(A|Monty opens B) = p(A)*p(Monty opens B|A)/p(Monty opens B)
= (1/6)/(1/2)
= 1/3
and
P(C|Monty opens B) = p(C)*p(Monty opens B|C)/p(Monty opens B)
= (1/3)/(1/2)
= 2/3
In other words, the mathematical probability that the prize is behind door C is higher when Monty opens door B, and you SHOULD switch! Here's a link where you can even sim the game, along with some more insights:
I'm still not buying it....The original puzzle was based on three doors. You pick A, the host open B, so you know the correct door is either A or C, 50/50.
JohnnyD
I did not say that the quizmaster/host will always open a wrong door, but this was an omission on my part - I should have made this clear,however I am not sure that this omission changes the answer.
I looked at it this way, you have a 2-1 chance of picking the correct door at first guess. When you get it right and change you will always be wrong, but when you pick wrongly 2/3 of the time, you will always be right when you change.
"I did not say that the quizmaster/host will always open a wrong door, but this was an omission on my part - I should have made this clear,however I am not sure that this omission changes the answer."
Actually that's one of the basic premises of the paradox and should be made clear up front when stating it:
NO MATTER WHICH DOOR THE CONTESTANT CHOOSES INITIALLY, THE TV PRESENTER WILL ALWAYS THROW OPEN AN EMPTY DOOR.
Based on this, it is always preferable to switch. Again, see my "No fooling" post, above, for the example with 100 doors instead of 3 or simulate the game yourself with an honest computer program at the link I provided in the same post.
Obviously if the TV presenter opens the door with the prize behind it the puzzle becomes rather pointless.
The point I was making was that although I did not clearly state that the presenter would always open one door and that door had no prize behind it, that is what happened in the puzzle and the additional information was available to the contestant. Whether this happened by luck on this one occasion or whether the presenter meant to do so is irrelevant - the information is there to be used.
I believe that the same would apply on the 100 doors scenario - although obviously it would be an unlikely occurence.
"The presenter would always open one door and that door [would have] no prize behind it, that is what happened in the puzzle and the additional information was available to the contestant. Whether this happened by luck on this one occasion or whether the presenter meant to do so is irrelevant - the information is there to be used."
No.
In your version above, the TV presenter is like another contestant! He just throws open a door randomly; he might as well go first, before the contestant, and pick a door to throw open, with the possibility that he, the TV presenter, throws open the correct one!
Then the chances between the two remaining two closed doors would indeed be 50/50. There is no "information" to be used: Suppose we had 100 doors to choose from and you pick 1 at random and I pick 98 at random and then all our choices turn out to be duds. Then the success probability of each of the 2 remaining closed doors is 50%. Even if I get to pick my 98 doors, after you make your choice. Again, no information to be used.
(As you correctly point out, of course, this is a very unlikely occurence, if we both choose randomly.)
BUT, when the TV presenter promises that, NO MATTER WHAT YOU CHOOSE, he will throw open 1 empty door (in the 3-door scenario), then there IS "information" to be used: it has just become a contest between 1/n (=your initial choice) and all the other doors, whose individual probabilities of success collapse into the 1 door the TV presenter will leave closed, as promised, meaning (n-1)/n.
Hope it is a little clearer now. (This is a very counter-intuitive paradox, admittedly.)
good point
Last weekend in Tunica and I am alternating (as usual) between hold'em at the Horseshoe and real low limit Omaha/8 at the Gold Strike.
I'm in the O/8 game sitting next to a beautiful asian late shift poker dealer from next door. When I mention that its time for me to go play hold'em she says that I should not leave. Here's what she tells me: "You are the only fish in this game. The other players will quit if you leave."
Sometimes the truth hurts.
I once quit a game at Bellagio after a losing session. After cashing out my remaining chips, I used the restroom at the rear of the poker room.
While passing back through the poker room on my way out of the building, I noticed that the game I had been playing had just broke.
They could have at least waited until I was in the parking lot.
Brett
Abe- Having played with you down in Tunica, I doubt very much if you were the FISH. She was giving you a left-handed compliment, I believe.
You have the patience of a saint from what I saw. Wish I had your discipline, especially in regards to starting cards.
I hope to be down in Tunica for Labor Day weekend if all goes well. Any chance you and Margo will be there?
Diane
Yes! Very likely for Tunica--Labor Day holiday. Might be bringing a whole rowdy gang from home town too.
Go get 'em at Orleans and TOC this month.
Having played before in Tunica with Abe and this same dealer in the 3/6 Omaha game it is most likely she was the fish. I saw her lose regularly.
An oldie but goodie...
You have ten cannonballs, all of which are exactly the same weight, except for one, which isn't. You have a scale, but it is a cheap import. You can weigh as many cannonballs at one time as you want, but the scale will only tell you if one side is heavier or lighter, and not by how much. It will also self destruct after three measurements. Your task is to find this non-standard cannonball and figure out if it is heavier or lighter.
Place three cannonballs on each side of the scale. If the scale balances take them off and place one on each side. If the scale balances weigh the last two.
If after three and three the scale is unbalanced take one ball off each side, if the scale is now balanced the ball from the lighter side is it. If the scale is still unbalanced take one more off from each side. Now either the one in your hand from the short side is lighter or the one left on the scale on the short side is lighter.
"If after three and three the scale is unbalanced take one ball off each side, if the scale is now balanced the ball from the lighter side is it."
You don't know beforehand if the odd ball is lighter or heavier.
You are right, I assumed it was lighter. Well, back to the cannon.
Doesn't work because, for one thing, in the first paragraph the last pair of balls is weighed and you won't know which of that pair is the odd one, or whether it is heavier or lighter.
Weigh two groups of three. If these balance, take two of them and weigh them against two of the remaining. If these balance take one of them and weigh against one of the remaining two. If this balances the odd one is the one you have not weighed, if it does not balance it is the odd one.
If the initial 3/3 weighing balances, but when you weigh two of these against two of the remaining, it does not balance, you will know that the odd ball is one of the two and also whether it is heavier or lighter depending on what happens on the scales. You then weigh these two against each other choosing the heavier or lighter depending on the result of the second weighing.
If the first 3/3 weighing does not balance, take off three from one side and put on three of the remaining, if it now balances you know that the odd ball is amongst the three you took off after the initial weighing and also whether the odd ball is heavier or lighter. So you weigh two of these three and if they do not balance you can choose the heavier or the lighter as being the odd ball depending on the result of the initial weighing. If the second 3/3 weighing does not balance you have the same information - it is one of three and you know whether it was heavier or lighter and can weigh any two of the three as before.
Here again in the first paragraph: You have identified the odd ball but not whether it is lighter of heavier and have used up your three weighings.
That is, dave, if you get three balances in a row as from your first paragraph, the remaining ball is it all right, but you have no more weighings left to determine if it is heavier or lighter.
Sorry didn't pick that bit up. From the point where you weigh the initial 3/3 and they balance you then weigh 3 of the others againt three of the normal balls, if they balance you weigh the one left against any one. If they do not balance you now know whether heavier or lighter, so you just take two of them and weigh them. If they balance it is the one left over, if they do not, you know by the info. gathered earlier whether it is the heavy or light one.
Yes , dave, and while you wrote and posted this I was busy writing the whole thing correctly below. Notice that I did give you credit for identifying the correct working principle in my post below and that I said you erred only in the first scenario.
Dave had it partially correct in the latter part of his post below, which part does illustrate the correct principle with which to solve the whole puzzle. He erred in the first scenario part of his post.
The correct solution is to first weigh 3 against 3, and then to weigh a second group of three against one of the previously weighed groups of 3. Unless the odd ball happens to be the one left out, you will now know which group of 3 contains the odd ball and whether it is heavier or lighter. Now weigh 2 of the "oddball group" of 3 against each other. If they balance you know the one remaining in the "oddball" group of 3 is the odd ball and you already know whether it is heavier or lighter. If they don't balance you can tell by which is heavier or lighter the odd ball because you already know whether the odd ball is heavier or lighter.
So by 2 weighings of groups of 3 you will always know which group of 3 contains the odd ball and whether it is heavier or lighter. The third weighing of ball vs. ball within that group will always then identify the odd ball.
If the 1/10 chance occurs that all three groups of 3 balance, then simply weigh the odd ball against any other ball to determine if it is heavier or lighter.
In all possible scenarios you have now used exactly 3 weighings and have identified the odd ball and whether it is heavier or lighter.
*
I think that my posting at 1.45 slightly shades your 1.55. -:) However, as I erroneously questioned your math skills yesterday I can't complain.
Yes it does. See my post at 1:59 also.
Any of you guys in the S/W like Johnny D. Please Fill me in on the latest and future tournaments in July I may make a side trip to Phoenix via the Orleans open.
Thanks in advance.
Mike, there's the $40,000 freeroll on July 8th at Casino Az. The cut off for points is 24. Not sure how many you had. But you know if top 100 players don't show up, then they go down the list until they get to 100. I just made it with 25 points.
Don't know of any other big tourneys in the Phoenix area in July.
JohnnyD
Johnny I think I had about 18 points when I left on June 1st. Hope to see you in Vegas.
Mike
Rounder,
Make sure you come to the Orleans Open. I'll be there from the 18th to the 25th. Enter the No-Limit Hold'em Noon Tourneyon Thursday July 20th. It's $130 + $30 entry fee with unlimited rebuys for $100. Last year there was 490 entries with 931 rebuys. Bring plenty of cash. I expect the prize pool to be big. BTW, if you enter lets do a last longer bet. Andy missed his chance, I don't want to miss mine.
Good Luck
mah
Sorry only do LL bets with Big John - I may be there haven't finalized my summer plans yet.
Well, I hope to see you there anyway. Good Luck.
Mark- Our trips will overlap. I will be at Orleans/TOC from 7/19-7/26.
Perhaps we can meet for lunch or breakfast sometime.
And I WILL do a last longer bet with you on any of the tourneys that we both enter.
Diane
Three men are blindfolded and sitting at a three sided table. They are told that either a red dot or a black dot will be put on their foreheads. On the count of three they will all remove their blindfolds and if they see at least one red dot on either of the two men facing them they should start clapping. Whoever can first detemine the color of the dot on their own forehead should stand up and explain how they knew.
The blindfolds are off all three men see two red dots and start clapping. After a brief pause one man stands up and says, "I know I have a red dot on my forehead!" He was right. How did he know?
;
What is "lateral thinking"?
Broadly it is where you cannot solve a problem by logic alone and you have to use your imagination. e.g A man lives in a large apartment block. Every morning he gets the lift from his apartment in the 20th floor to the ground floor and goes to work. However, in the evening he gets the lift to the 6th floor and walks the rest of the way. Why does he do this?
Answer in next post
He is a dwarf and cannot reach the buttons above the 6th floor
that i dislike. not because it requires what you call lateral thinking, but because there are scores of reasonable answers.
what if some hot chick from the 6th floor runs the stairs in the afternoons?
what if his kids get dropped off from school at a friend's place on the 6th floor and they like to walk up the stairs?
maybe the elevator got stuck on the 6th floor once and on his walk up he found a $100 bill, so now he does it every time?
what if someone bet him $1000 that he could not follow this pattern for 3 years straight?
what if he loves to walk up stairs but not down them and the fire alarm on th door to the stairway is broken on only the 6th and 20th floors?
are these wrong answers?
and here's the biggie: maybe he does it for no reason. habits are powerful and not always the result of a rational decision.
in fact, there is no answer that you can say is wrong.
scott
Your comments are valid - if I had posed this as a puzzle and not an example, I would have restricted the options.
First, since every man was clapping they each knew that there wasn't 2 black dots.
Second, if the man who gave the answer had a black dot on his head one of the other 2 men would have aready figured out the problem. The reason again is because everyone is clapping meaning, there wasn't 2 black dots.
Third, since nobody was quickly giving a correct answer, they must all have red dots on their foreheads.
Interesting Puzzle,
CV
Well done. I always explain it this way. Call our hero guy#3. If guy #3 had a black dot then either guy #2 or guy #1 would immediately know they had a red dot because they see the a black dot on guy #3 yet they are clapping. Therefore, they (guy#2 and guy#1) must have a red dot. Since they don't immediately know this guy #3 must have a confusing red dot.
The solution is a bit 'soft', in my opinion. The way the puzzle solves, anyone of the three persons could have gotten up and declare he knew the answer! Logical puzzles must point out how there is only one necessary solution; in this case, there should be only one specific contestant.
There could be something different to the way the problem is phrased.
"The blindfolds are off, all three men see two red dots and start clapping."
Don't mean to pester you, Bart, but I don't think you're supposed to say that. I think you're supposed to say simply that they all clap.
In reference to both of your posts, I've been telling this problem for around ten years and the fact that all the men had red dots seemed to make it a bit more perplexing that one could figure out what he had. And I understand your dissatisfaction concerning the lack of one particular character having a clear solution, but most people that don't figure it out think the problem is fun. I'll try to find something more challenging for you. :-)
The solution is predicated on the fact that each man expects anyone who knows he has a red dot will stand up. We are giving the 3 men credit for thinking at the first level but not the second level. In other words, we are assuming that each of the 3 men is capable of the simple analysis that would lead him to stand up if he saw a red and a black dot and saw both others clapping. What if the two with red dots were not that bright or unable to draw a fairly simple conlusion? Now the man with the black dot and the higher level of logical analysis would erroneously stand up.
Certainly it is easy to expect that most people would be capable of the first level of analysis but not the second, but that doesn't mean the answer is really correct, only that it would be correct most of the time.
To continue with this line of analysis: The person thinking on the second level must be able to make an accurate judgment about the length of time the other two contestants would take to have thought through the first level and responded. If he is wrong about even this, he may stand up prematurely and be himself wrong if he has the only black dot.
So the solution, while interesting, is neither airtight nor complete.
I posted below a topic dealing with controlling the "right" to, respectively, vote and have children. My objective was not so much to see who agreed or disagreed with my proposals but to gauge the tenor of the reactions. In general people seemed much less eyes-bugged-out foaming-at-the-mouth rabidly objectionable to my proposal to "qualify" voters than to my concurrent proposal to "qualify" child-producers. The overriding tone to most responses, though, was a blanket rejection of both ideas (without much logical argument in most cases, just a "gut reaction" objection, simply stated) with the principal reason stated being an objection to (increased) government intervention in our lives. This leads me to several interesting conclusions, which I draw at my own risk due to small sample size:
1. People do not generally feel passionate about the "right" --or ability-- to vote. In general the idea of regulated childbirth seemed to bother people a LOT more than the idea of regulated voting. This interests me because the invocation of the "sacred right" to reproduce throughout the world has caused the current dramatic overpopulation crisis, whereas I cannot divine any negative consequences deriving from people insisting on their right to vote. It seems to me that if society is forced to restrict one of these two "sacred rights" for the overall good, it's more likely to be reproduction than voting (once again, I'm speaking globally here).
2. Simply because we live in an affluent society on a continent with abundant open space and plentiful natural resources, there seem to be many people who refuse to perceive that there is such a problem as overpopulation at all. People like Dan, who summons an army of statistics to bolster a mistaken conclusion (that there IS no overpopulation problem (!!)) usually have some hidden agenda or belief that blinds them to the nature of the problem, such as Christian fundamentalism, which forbids any kind of birth control whatsoever (and also believes in the inevitability of the Apocalypse, which is a logical sequel to runaway overpopulation, I must agree). Simply quoting statistics that the RATE OF POPULATION ACCELERATION IS DECREASING is silly. The world population IS steadily increasing. Our planet has a finite carrying capacity. Must we wait for the natural levelers of disease, famine and war to trim down the human population, or should we use our (supposed) staus as a rational species to solve the problem in some less misery-producing fashion?
3. People react in horror to increased government intervention in our lives, ON PAPER, in cocktail parties, at the barbershop, in Internet forums, etc. etc. But how many of all of you closet ACLUers reacted in any fashion to the recent Supreme Court rulings broadening police powers, and sharply truncating the Constitutional protections against search and seizure? How many people babble on blithely about "criminals getting off on technicalities" when in reality, this almost never happens; in fact, the reverse is true, that many people are wrongly convicted (and in many cases sentenced to death) of crimes than DNA or other evidence has shown conclusively that they did not commit? How many people were willing to let Bubba and Hilly force socialised medicine down our throats? How many people complain about taxes, but aren't DEMANDING that the government IMMEDIATELY refune its revenue surplus to the taxpayers, AND reduce its tax rates so that next year's budget is revenue-neutral? In other words, guys, you can't just talk the talk, you gotta walk the walk, too.
Who would you delegate to make these types of decisions and how would they be enforced and what would be the penalty for noncompliance?
I would be satisfied with a team of qualified psychologists, sociologists, doctors, etc.---qualified PROFESSIONALS--- to gradually work out such standards over time (I refer to the childbirth issue). Obviously this would have to be a large-scale effort, with consensuses arrived at only after careful consideration. As far as the voting issue, I would be satisfied with voters having to conform to already existing academic standards, specifically English comprehension at at least the eighth-grade level and the completion of a test similar in content and difficulty to a high-school civics final exam. What I would NOT want is standards in either case to be worked out by politicians.
--What I would NOT want is standards in either case to be worked out by politicians.--
You may not want it but it is inevitable that it would happen. If you think that politicians wouldn't be in control of such issues and the changes brought about, it would show that you are very naive. I'm sure you realize that politicians would be very involved in such changes. What you seem to have missed in your agruements and I assume that you would want this is that people need to have a way to redress decisions by government that they do not agree with. Surely you aren't saying that all decisions made by government agencies that administer these programs have the final say so? These programs would have to be administered wouldn't they? Surely you can't be saying that new laws won't be required. What about this? Wouldn't laws be required?
Is it really a mystery to you why people feel more strongly about a restriction on their right to have kids, vs the right to vote? Restricting the right to vote raises philosophical objections, but won't really change anyone's life a lot. Restricting the right to have children is a direct intrusion into the most basic desire of humans. I'm amazed that you lacked the insight to predict which one would draw the more heated response.
I love how you characterize the 'blanket objection to both ideas' as lacking in logical argument, when you yourself never provided a logical argument for your position. Present one, and we'll debate it.
Can anyone count the number of ad-hominem attacks in this message? I present 'an army of statistics', which Kevin cannot refute (and didn't realize existed), so instead of refuting my arguments, he accuses me of having a 'hidden agenda'. This somehow negates the 'army of statistics' I presented. BTW, Kevin, you're the first guy I know of who has accused the United Nations of being a radical right-wing organization.
It's also clear that you never read my messages, nor followed the link to the actual U.N web page. I did not say that 'the rate of population acceleration is decreasing'. According to the medium variant model, population growth will STOP and stabilize at about 10 billion people. According to the low variant model, population growth will REVERSE, and the population will begin to decrease, before stabilizing at around 3.2 billion people. Did you just decide to ignore this?
Your last point is a total non-sequitur. Whether or not people are consistent in their defense of freedom is irrelevant to your original argument. You are trying to argue that we NEED these measures, and that people who think otherwise are guilty of 'fuzzy thinking'. This without presenting a logical argument yourself. I quoted a ton of hard facts which show that you are flatly wrong, and your response was to accuse me of having a hidden agenda, and to smear me through association with Fundamentalists. Just who's thinking is fuzzy here?
Dan ol' buddy: It's clear that you are mired in your preconceptions, and I wouldn't dream of even attempting to divorce you from them. Unfortunately, despite the obviously cogent nature of your arguments, I must consign you to the loony bin for two simple reasons: 1. You believe there is no such thing as overpopulation, and there is no such thing as the threat of further, more serious overpopulation. I guess there is no such thing as pollution and environmental damage, either. Your statistics are merely a selective gleaning from the torrent of numbers dealing with the subject that the "authorities" continually belch out. You don't need statistics to prove that the world's population is exponentiating. A few hours in Calcutta or, for that matter, Los Angeles will do that. However, with the proper statistics, one can "prove" that the world is flat, that the weight of the Empire State Building is zero lbs., and that Shakespeare's sonnets were all written by a guy in Brooklyn named Spike. This is all you're doing with your U.N. quotes (I DID read them). 2. Referring to the above, you seem to actually BELIEVE the U.N.'s statistics. This is hilarious! When in its brief, pathetic history has the U.N. ever been correct on ANYTHING??? 3. You never actually READ any of the posts you disagree with!! You state above (your first paragraph) that "it was a mystery to you" and "you lacked the insight to predict" people's responses. Look at my post: I actually said "it interests me". This neither states nor implies any preconceptions before obtaining, or surprise after obtaining, the answer(s). Perhaps recourse to a dictionary prior to posting would help you here, although I think what we're seeing here is e a normally intelligent person robbed of his ability to articulate by the strength of his emotions. A common problem---too bad, because you obviously are CAPABLE of intelligent, rational discourse. When that happens, let's talk again.
There you go again... Not one word on the validity of my argument, but plenty of words dissecting my emotional state, motivations, etc. Look up the phrase 'ad hominem', and get back to me when you can remove the technique from your arguments.
And no, going to Calcutta or anywhere else on earth will not tell you anything about birth TRENDS. To discover those, I'm afraid you have to rely on those icky statistics you apparently abhor. What if a disease made everyone but ten people sterile overnight? We'd still have a large population, but we could say with some certainty that two generations from now the population will be much, much smaller. Get it?
The crash in birthrates around the world is not a made-up phenomenon. It's real. It's not a projection or a guess, it's a measured phenomenon. Everyone agrees on that. That means previous projections of world population go right out the window. Future projections for the next 50 years are almost certain, because they are mere extrapolations from the current population. Children under 20 are the smallest demographic group now, when they used to be the largest. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that if those children are small in number, then the rate of population growth must decrease when they become the prime contributors of babies.
Do we have an overpopulation problem now? I guess that depends on your interpretation. To some extreme environmentalists, one human is an overpopulation problem. From the standpoint of availability of food and other natural resources, no we do not have an overpopulation problem. Reserves of all major consumables have actually been increasing in past years, as improvements in agriculture, mineral exploration and extraction technologies have outstripped demand. There is no reason to believe that this trend will stop for the foreseeable future.
Dan, I've read every one of your posts on this subject, as well as many of your analyses on poker, and I'm wondering what you do for a living and the nature of your education. To put it mildly, I'm quite impressed with your ease of expression and clear thinking.
Thanks for the nice words. Right now, I'm a software developer for a division of General Electric. Until December of last year, I was a professional poker player for a few years. Before that, I ran my own software company for about 10 years, right from when I left school.
My education is nothing to write home about. I graduated from Electrical Engineering technology, then Studied Physics, Mathematics and Computing Science in University. To be honest, I don't think I learned all that much in University, other than some of the more formal aspects of math. Most of my knowledge is self-taught. I go through phases where I become almost obsessed with certain subjects, and when I do I tend to immerse myself in them. My house is wall-to-wall books.
It looks like you may have already read it, but a good book on this subject is "The Ultimate Resource 2" by Julian Simon. This book argues that increased population is actually a good thing.
Julian Simon was one of my favorite writers on Economics. He died last year.
He was the guy who made the famous bet with Paul Erlich. Erlich was predicting massive shortages in the near future. Simon made a bet with him - "Name 10 resources of your choice, and I'll bet that the average price of that group is lower 10 years from now".
Erlich quietly sent Simon a cheque a couple of years ago.
It's a bit late, and I'll admit I've had a few to drink. Why not? I don't have to work tomorrow. So anyway I'll respond. After all, having a keyboard seems to be the only requirement.
There may be overpopulation somewhere in the world. But it's not in the US. So for someone to claim that we need to radically reform our policy to suit the ails of the world is absurd. The US needs population control like a fish needs a bicycle (my appologies Gloria...). We, as the USA, can't change what's happening in India or China. For us to debate what they are or should be doing is equally absurd. We have no say.
Furthermore, I don't agree that there's finite space or resources on the planet. I loathe cheap cliches, but what the hell. Necessity is the mother of invention. If we need more farmland, we'll find a way to cultivate it. If we need better farmland, we'll find a way too. Living space? Look up! The sky's the limit. Look around. 3/4 of the world is unused merely because it's liquid. Why should that stop us? Overpopulation is a problem we can solve. Hunger is too. Maybe not right now...but it can be done.
That being said, I don't agree with the UN model. I'll take a closer look at it tomorrow, but for now, how can any study possibly extrapolate 4 billion people into the future...and then another 6.8 billion past that? 20 years ago there were only a handful of people on the planet who would have imagined that the entire world would be communicating like we are on a daily basis. Now you're asking us believe that today's researchers believe that we'll even out at close to 3 billion people without taking into account the brilliant piece of new technology that could come out tomorrow that will revolutionalize the entire world 20 years down the line.
What do I believe? I don't know. I haven't gotten that far in my thinking. What I know is that there are flaws in both sides of the arguments. Maybe there are flaws in mine. I look forward to hearing them. For now, I'm going to bed.
Dan
There is no population problem. Where is your evidence of this great population problem we face. Why has life been getting consistenly better, while world population continues to rise. Resources have been getting less scarce as well. In real dollars, almost every resource you can name is cheaper now than in the past.
It is true that "resources" are finite, but is it the resources that we need, or is it the function the resources provide. I would suggest that even if we run out of a given resource (not likely any time within the next thousand years or so)human ingenuity will alleviate the problem immediately. In fact, currently existing technology can already overcome most of the foreseeable problems. Once the price of a certain service or product rises, private industry will step in to take care of it, at a profit for themselves. Do you doubt this?
Read Julian Simon, forget about Paul Erhlich. Erhlich has been wrong so many times its laughable.
As for the government regulating reproduction, well, Lenin and Hitler thought they had some good government interventionist ideas too. In fact, a recurring theme throughout history has been this desire for man to limit the freedoms of other men, in the name of the "greater good". Funny how you should come up with these ideas here in the US, in the midst of the greatest prosperity the world ever seen. Your right, we probably should revert back to some type of communism or fascism, these ideaologies have proven their effectiveness.
Kevin,
You probably won't read this, but here goes anyway. Your childbearing proposal seemed just too "modest." You knew what reaction you would receive. You also seem to think that anyone who holds an unpopular opinion these days marches to the tune of Thoreau and Emerson, confidently abusing the gross illusions of an unthinking public. Well, that's not true--and you should know it. Bad ideas are simply bad ideas.
I did respond to your argument for instituting a voting requirement beyond those already in place. You also know that more and more registered voters fail to show up at the polls, and many eligible voters have never registered. So what kind of test is necessary anyway? Fewer and fewer people find their way to city hall to register, so how many are going to study for a test? We need to address the reasons why people don't vote because those who wish to won't have trouble passing a test. What test do almost all high school students pass? Answer: the driver's test. Why? Easy: they get something they want in return. People will study for any damn voting test and pass it too if they get something they want out of voting. (And, that "something" may be as simple as a real voice.)
But, I do agree with some of what you say. Our society would be better off with healthy and happy babies, contented children, caring and responsible parents, and an informed citizenry, capable of reading and comprehending complex issues that affect everyone's life.
Your proposals, though, fail to address real causes, and, instead, you assign blame to those who are really the victims.
Let me ask you one question: look at a group of first grade children. What one bit of factual information will best allow you to predict future success? Email me if you have the answer.
Regards,
John
Best predictor of future success = economic status of their parents.
I disagree. I think having a supportive, intact family structure, i.e. both natural parents still married to each other in a loving relationship, in other words the exact opposite of a broken home, is more important than the money the parents have to throw at the problems. Nurturing and involvement from both parents I believe make the difference.
Thought you said you were a liberal? Your supposed to hate the family, right? American Beauty was a perfect description of the family, wasnt it? Your supposed to agree with the first answer, that economic status is the main predicter. This is grounds for socialism, for equality sake.
Just goes to show you how uninformative labels can be :-)
x
x
money? fame? power? happiness? satisfaction? was faust successful? was hamlet? what about the underground man? or meursault?
what about people who win the lottery? or people who work hard all their lives? how about an academic?
no one is a success forever. we all fail sooner or later.
scott
Scott,
Nothing so existential--just academic success. You know, like you guys at Columbia who have learned to disdain the shift key.
john
Academic success? How is that measured? A degree, a degree from an Ivy League Univ., 1600 on the SAT, Westinghouse winner (INTEL), becoming a professor of mathematics at Berkley like Ted Kazcynski? Or, maybe someone who worked two jobs to put themselves through auto mechanics school because their parents had no money to give them a higher education.
Bartholemew,
There's no real strict definition, but I was refering to young children, pre-school and early grades. Academic success here might only be the ability to master certain skills necessary to move on to the next level.
Your example of an auto mechanic, I think, alludes to intelligence, and I would never deny that auto mechanics, or clowns, or athletes, or pastry chefs lack intelligence, although they may have different kinds of intelligence or intelligences.
John
John,
When I first read your question of July 4th I must tell you that I found myself pondering it into the following day. Considering how you define success in your response to my auto mechanic analogy I am quite baffled that a parent's wealth can have that much of an effect. I'd be fascinated to read any articles or books that support this contention.
Bart
Bart,
All research supports this; again, though, this is the best predictor for success. To see what money can do, read Jonathan Kozol's Savage Inequalities. Also, poor parents often fail to provide adequate nutrition for their children during the formative years, and proper nutrition is directly related to cognitive development. The Center for Childhood Poverty has released information to show that by the time poorly fed children are three to four years old, their cognitive abilities have been so affected that they will never learn at the rate of properly fed children.
John
So, what you're saying is not that a parent's wealth is an indicator of future success, moreso that a parent's poverty is an indicator of a future lack of success. I admit I live and have always lived in a rather affluent part of Long Island, NY. Here poor is when you drive a used BMW. So, when you said wealth, I thought you meant wealth as compared to those with money, not wealth as a definition of someone with just enough money to properly feed and clothe their children. Thanks for the clarification.
Never underestimate the power of clown intelligence.
John,
I was going to mention poker writers, but I knew that would be going too far. Besides, Vince has all those problems with "tone." ;->
John
John Cole, John Cole ... Hmmm that name rings a bell for some reason. Did you write Rhaposody in Blue? No that was Cole Porter. Maybe that's it, are you related to Cole Porter? Or maybe you are a decendent of the Cole brothers. You know the Cole brothers of the dirty little coward that shot Mr. Howard scene. Jesse James gang. No that was actually Cole Younger of the Younger brothers. Maybe that's it, are you somebody's younger brother? I can see how that could be the case. You are such a unique kinda guy Momma and papa would have stopped once you came along. Meaning you could have older siblings but wise parents would not allow another like you once you had arrived. Did that country woman singing star there write a ballad about you? You know Cole Minors daughter. Or was that Coal Miner's daughter? You know how I am with spelling. I guess the only explanation for your name ringing a bell in my dome is that once meeting you, you have become like the song " Unforgettable". No matter how hard one tries that melody just continually flows through ones head once it gets started.
Vince.
Vince,
Actually, Gershwin wrote Rhapsody in Blue. Cole Porter wrote such masterpieces as "Miss Otis Regrets," "Brush Up Your Shakespeare," "Let's Fall in Love," (cold Cape Cod clams do it), and "You're the Top" (You're a rose/You're Inferno's Dante/You're the nose/On the great Durante). Porter was named after his maternal grandfather, James Cole, and, as far as I know, he's no relation.
I have two younger brothers, but I'll tell my parents about your comment.
BTW, my full name is John Wheaton Cole, and my middle name is inherited from my father and grandfather. Nobody knows, though, where the middle name comes from. Last week, though, I tested a group of students in Warren, RI. I couldn't find the place at first, and at the end of the street where I turned around, I saw the Thomas Cole House, 1822. After driving around the block, I noticed a street named Wheaton St. After the test, I passed RI's Historical Cemetary No. 1. Always in the mood for a little adventure, I stopped in and walked around. Within a couple minutes, I saw the gravesite of Col. Benjamin Cole, a soldier in the Revolutionary War, who was most likely an ancestor. Buried next to him was another soldier and his family whose last name was Wheaton. Mystery solved!
But, I'm still suffering from an identity crisis: when I pout, I look like a young James Dean, and when I dress in black, I resemble the young Elvis. So, these days, I just don't know who I am. (Credit goes to Richard Younkin.)
Now, about that tone stuff....
John
John,
Nice little comeback for one so.. so.. (not so and so just stuttering here,) so educated. By the way, do you remember who sang "Unforgettable"? You seemed to have just passed that one off. Also, my apologies to Gershwin, even though I'm sure he wouldn't mind being discussed in the same light as Cole Porter. You seem to have an interesting ancestry. Maybe a family tree adventure would prove fun sometime in your future. But don't get too upset that you found that old Col. Ben is sleeping with another Soldier named Wheaton. I'm sure the relationship was strictly Platonic.
Vince
Vince,
Of course; I love Nat King Cole, and I have four or five cds I listen to regularly. I also like his stuff with the Nat King Cole trio before he did much singing.
Most of my knowledge of older music comes from years spent listening to NPR, but I learned about the weird stuff from my father. Stuff like Kay Kaiser and his Kollege of Musikal Knowledge (or I think it was spelled that way).
Hey, do you think anyone else is reading this far down?
John
Hey, do you think anyone else is reading this far down?
No!
vince
that's VINCE!!!
scott
Beam me up Scotty!
Hey, what was your GPA this last semester. Send me an e-mail. Yes, it does matter. I keep track of all young people in which I have an interest. I also am keeping an eye on you! I wan't to see some poker stats. I need to know how the star pupil of 2+2 is progressing. I'll be very surprised if David is not watching also. Now be a good boy and get to bed. Busy day tomorrow!
Vince.
Scott,
You have found the secret of success, it is the ?. Tell your folks that Columbia education will pay off after all!
Vince.
Success is faster horses older whiskey younger women
John,
There was a guy who made a study that showed that the single best predictor of economic success of 4-5 year olds is how long they can hold off eating a marshmellow (sp?) when presented with one and offered an award if they don't eat it. I am not making this up, it is a better test than IQ and socioeconomic status. It was a guy at Harvard in the 60-70's I believe, you probably know more about this topic than me anyway.
Azad
I cheated, sort of. My wife has been in the "ed biz" for 26 years here in Albuquerque. The Research dept at Albuquerque Public Schools has used the socioeconomic predictor for a number of years. The reliability of this indicator (to predict academic success) is beyond question. The local community has still not come to grips with its implications, especially with regard to programs to help minority students.
Azad,
No, I hadn't heard that one. But I know that certain kinds of early academic acheivement, such as writing and reading skills, correlate with fine motor skills. In other words, a kid who can bounce a basketball fairly well often shows higher levels of writing and reading ability. Of course, one problem with this kind of data is that educators no longer have to test kids for reading and writing. They simply hand them a basketball.
John
There are 20 bags of gold coins. Each of the bags have anywhere from 50 to 150 coins inside. All of the coins weigh exactly 1 oz. execept for the coins in one bag which weigh 1.1 oz and are fake. You have a penny scale and one penny. (For you younger folks penny scales are usually found in old fashioned arcades. You get on the scale put a penny in and it tells you your weight). How can you decide which bag has the fake coins?
Take 1 coin from bag 1, 2 coins from bag 2, ... , 20 coins from bag 20, and weigh them (and hope that the scale is quite accurate!)
The variation from the expected result assume all coins were real will identify the fakes.
Bob D.
Assuming the scale will register in 0.1 oz increments, simply take one coin from each bag, making a stack in careful order from Bag One to Bag Twenty. Put the stack on the scale, insert penny. The scale will read 20.1 oz. Carefully remove the coins one by one, letting the scale stabilize after each removal. When the indicator points to a whole number (x ounces exactly, not x.1) then the fake bag is the one corresponding to the coin just removed from the stack. ALTERNATE METHOD: Go to the bank with one bag of coins every week and attempt to cash them in. The day you get arrested, well, that was the fake bag. (No penny or scale needed.)
open the damn bag and look at 'em!!
hey, this stuff's easy!!
(I remember when my brother came up with an easy solution to Rubik's Cube: a can of paint)
A) First off, the principle underlying the Taxi Cab Quiz posted below has a direct application to a real world predicament. Opinions about the reliability of the antibody test vary, but certainly the problem of false positive results in the United States dwarfs that of false negative results since the percentage of people who are HIV+ is quite small (about 0.3%). For the sake of argument, let's assume that the antibody test yields inaccurate results only 0.5% of the time. That means that out of 1000 people tested, 3 will correctly test positive and 5 will incorrectly test positive.Therefore, of those who test positive there is a 5/8 or 62.5% chance the result is incorrect. Which all means that retesting becomes essential. (Does every physician understand this?)
B) Of course the complexion of the above situation alters dramatically if HIV does not cause AIDS, and this is precisely what a number of "dissident" scientists and doctors have been asserting for a decade now (see in particular Inventing the AIDS Virus by Peter Duesberg and Rethinking AIDS by Robert Root-Bernstein). I have followed this controversy closely for the better part of that decade and concur with the minority view. Indeed, I've gone so far as to challenge via e-mail several members of the media for their lack of skepticism (i.e., brainlock) -- Thomas Maugh, the AIDS reporter for the LA Times for one -- but have provoked nothing but vituperative retorts and flaccid evasions.
Those of you interested in investigating this topic on the internet should consult www.duesberg.com, The Harvard Teach-In on AIDSand Alternative Theories, and Second Opinion by Nicholas Regush at the ABC News website.
We could stop the spread of AIDS if everyone would simply sit down and keep their mouth shut (get it?). Really, though, my question is, is the inaccuracy rate 0.5% for both kinds of incorrect results? In other words, is there a 1/200 chance that someone with, AND someone without, HIV will test incorrectly? Even a test with 50% reliability could be approximately 97% accurate if administered FIVE times (given that the same result was obtained each time, of course). So it seems to me that if an HIV blood screen was a routine part of an annual physical then very few HIV cases would eventually go undetected in those people that took such physicals.
I would favor such annual physicals being made available to the public at nominal cost, and private employers offering incentives for employees to obtain them (and making them COMPULSORY for anyone on any kind of government assistance).
You ignored section B of my post. My contention is that AIDS is NOT caused by an infectious microorganism.
Tellingly, there are people who tested positive for HIV, began the recommended prophylactic drug treatment, became chronically ill, then were informed that the initial test was inaccurate. They discontinued the treatment and recovered their health. What was making these unwitting guinea pigs sick? The anti-viral drugs, not HIV.
Actually, what you said is that AIDS is not caused by the HIV virus. For all we know, this may be true, although the fact is that the vast majority of persons with the condition we call "AIDS" have high levels of the HIV virus present in their bloodstreams. Therefore in the absence of any compelling alternate causal effect, one must default to the simplest explanation for the time being, i.e. HIV+time=AIDS. Speaking of alternate explanations, what do YOU think is the causal agent for AIDS, if not an infectious microorganism? What is your reason for rejecting altogether the notion that it is caused by an infectious microorganism (as is virtually all human disease, with the exception of genetic disorders, malnutrition, and poisoning)? Do you have clinical expertise and/or scientific background to support your contention? Or do you simply hate gays and are looking for any excuse to deny them treatment for what is, after all, "just a 'gay disease'"?
Wondering whether there may be some sinister agenda behind my contention is laudable. I can't promise to allay your suspicions, but I'll give it a shot.
In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the idea that only a professional could make important scientific contributions or competently participate in a debate would not have been credibly broached. Consider the attainments of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and Charles Darwin, to name but a famous few. As it happens, when it comes to AIDS, except for the point I made in section A at the top of this thread, I've merely assimilated what I've read and reread and, out of a sense of ethical obligation, decided to encourage others to examine the published arguments for themselves.
You wrote: "the fact is that the vast majority of persons with the condition we call "AIDS" have high levels of the HIV virus present in their bloodstreams."
In fact, a breakdown of the immune system is not regarded as "AIDS" unless HIV is present or assumed to be present. Symptoms vary widely from person to person. A disease or list of unrelated diseases combined with a positive reaction to the antibody test is officially recorded as a case of "AIDS." Thus tuberculosis plus HIV+ status = AIDS and tuberculosis without HIV = tuberculosis.
You wrote: "in the absence of any compelling alternate causal effect, one must default to the simplest explanation for the time being, i.e. HIV+time=AIDS."
The "simplest explanation for the time being" is hardly a rigorous assessment or endorsement. And to hold that a body left to its own devices is defenceless against HIV on the one hand and then admit HIV may take fifteen years or more to commence operations on the other is like suturing a head of lettuce to a side of beef.
In order for a microorganism to be deemed the causative agent of a disease, it must first be isolated from the tissues of symtomatic organisms and then shown to cause the determinative symptoms when introduced into the bodies of other healthy organisms. None of the chimpanzees which were injected with HIV in the mid-1980s have ever developed AIDS.
You wrote: "what is your reason for rejecting altogether the notion that [AIDS] is caused by an infectious microorganism (as is virtually all human disease, with the exception of genetic disorders, malnutrition, and poisoning)?..."
Most human disease in the United States and other developed nations is not caused by infectious microorganisms; this is one of the blessings of modern life, and is due to dramatic improvements in sanitation and hygiene and nutrition, and to mandatory vaccination of the young. Neither cancer nor heart attacks nor strokes are caused by infectious microbes. Indeed, when one considers premature mortality amongst the "affluent" of this planet, behavioral and environmental factors (smoking, obesity, alcoholism, detrimental eating habits, stress, inadequate exercise, drug addiction, car and other lethal accidents, suicide, and homicide) predominate.
You wrote: do you simply hate gays and are looking for any excuse to deny them treatment for what is, after all, "just a 'gay disease'"?
Affected gays should be afforded the opportunity to carefully consider the arguments from both sides and then decide how to proceed.
You wrote: what do YOU think is the causal agent for AIDS, if not an infectious microorganism?
In this country, leaving hemophiliacs aside, I believe immunosuppression is caused primarily by the chronic abuse of recreational drugs (especially heroin, speed, cocaine, "poppers") and prescription drugs (including AZT and other toxic drugs anti-viral drugs prescribed to AIDS patients), and secondarily to compromised eating and sleeping habits and to the repeated exposure of one's already overburdened immune system to an array of infectious agents.
A few logical flaws: Viruses as pathogens cannot, by their very nature, act consistently across a given population. Subtle triggers in body chemistry can activate or deactivate a virus. HIV can lie dormant in a person's body for years, or it can erupt almost immediately upon infection. Therefore the existing symptomology does not, as you imply, exclude a viral causative agent. I would hardly call strokes or heart attacks "diseases". People die of CONDITIONS or EVENTS. They rarely die directly from the results of a disease, rather a CONDITION or EVENT triggered by the disease. Your hypothesis that HIV/AIDS is brought about through abuse of recreational and prescription drugs, altered sleeping and eating habits and the exposure of overburdened immune systems to infectious agents is plausible, but it fails because there already was a significant test population exposed to these EXACT environmental factors--and out of half a million, NONE developed HIV. I am referring to American GIs in Vietnam.
Maybe I misunderstood you, but didn't you indicate that infectious diseases were the leading cause of (premature) deaths? I was responding to that claim with a list of causes largely unrelated to infectious organisms. Relatively few heart attacks or strokes result either from the primary or collateral damage done by infectious agents.
During the early 1970s, a War on Cancer was launched and viruses were targeted as likely causative agents. Virologists received huge grants to substantiate this hypothesis, but with the rare exception or two, viruses were found "not guilty." Virologists (like Peter Duesberg) accustomed to elevated status in the research community and to hefty governmental "subsidies" were left in the lurch. They were predisposed to link AIDS to a virus (vested interest) and had the institutional clout to squelch opposition once the hypothesis was declared unassailable.
"Subtle triggers in body chemistry can activate or deactivate a virus. HIV can lie dormant in a person's body for years, or it can erupt almost immediately upon infection."
Typically pathogenic microorganisms do their damage before the body can mount an efficacious defense. Vaccines jumpstart the body's immune system so that target-specific antibodies are already available before the onset of infection. If the microbe gets "rebuffed," there may be a residual presence. But a healthy body keeps the microbial menagerie in check; only a subversion of the immune system allows otherwise harmless microbes to wreak havoc (hence the designation "opportunistic infections"). Genital herpes is somewhat of an exception, but it is also not lethal.
"Your hypothesis that HIV/AIDS is brought about through abuse of recreational and prescription drugs, altered sleeping and eating habits and the exposure of overburdened immune systems to infectious agents is plausible, but it fails because there already was a significant test population exposed to these EXACT environmental factors--and out of half a million, NONE developed [AIDS]. I am referring to American GIs in Vietnam."
This is not my hypothesis per se. See Duesberg's Inventing the AIDS Virus. I do not know enough about the lifestyle of American GIs in Vietnam. ( I have heard that many suffered as a consequence of their exposure to Agent Orange.) Did they frequent gay bathhouses and have sexual relations with hundreds of male strangers during the course of a year. Did they habitually employ toxic nitrate inhalants "poppers" to enhance or facilitate sexual arousal? Or were they ten-year+ heroin addicts who repeatedly shared contaminated needles with other addicts?
I indicated that I believe chronic abuse is responsible. That's unclear; I should have written chronic long-term abuse. Smoking steadily for three years rarely leads to lung cancer; smoking infrequently for thirty years rarely leads to lung cancer; smoking steadily for thirty years frequently leads to lung cancer.
Robert Root-Bernstein delved into the medical literature from the pre-World War II period on and found instances of people exhibiting the collection of symptoms we would call AIDS; in most cases, they were hardcore drug addicts. Because such addiction was itself so rare (until the late 1960s), a physician seldom encountered even one example of this syndrome during his entire professional career. Only after habitual drug use proliferated from 1970 to 1980 could the link between AIDS and drug abuse be recognized. See Rethinking AIDS.
I am very sympathetic to your views on this issue. This is much more about politic than it is about science, compassion, or saving lives. It is simply in everbody's political interest to fan the flames of AIDS hysteria.
A wise man (I think it was me) once said: "When the far left and the far right are on the same side of an issue, you better watch your wallet and the truth will be damned!"
In the case of AIDS, both ends of the political spectrum (albeit with different motives) have slef interest in min , when they blindingly adhere to the "AIDS is a scourge of epidemic proportions and we (the government) must do something about it."
When you throw big business (the Pharmas and media) into the mix, its a worldclass mindfu**.
I just read that a young woman in South Africa was stoned to death after testing positive for HIV. So much for the triumph of rationalism in the modern world.
Can anyone tell me how the games are at the Reno Hilton, and how the poker room rate works?
Thanks.
Just got back from there this weekend. they only spread 4-8 and 3-6 HE with the obligatory 1-5 stud on the side. rake was 10% to 3 dollars with another dollar taken out for the jackpot. Players were either unbelieveably tight or unbelieveably loose. no middle ground. more loose than tight. not really worth the trip just for poker. Maybe during the tournament, but not on a random weekend.
I don't know what the poker rates are, but the Hilton rates are real reasonable to begin with. Like $50 for a suite. If you play any -ev games, craps, BJ, or whatever, get a casino card. Then on your next trip, your room will be free.
Brett
nt
Went to Minn and played at Canterbury for three half days just 7cs. Thurs morning, Fri morning, and Sat morning. The place is beautiful and the cardroom is new since April. There wasn't much action at the times I was there 7cs (2/4, 3/6, 4/8) same for HE plus up to 10/20. I didn't pay atten to O8, 7cs/8 so I don't even know if they were running. The 7cs tables were slightly shorter than FW so it made card reading easier for me which I liked. Play for the most part was passive in the 2/4 games with quite a few times going to a common card at the end. Fri morning that's all that was opened when I arrived. The other two days I played 3/6 because there were seats opened. Play was a little better than the 2/4 but very beatable. There was a bad beat pool that everyone thought they were going to win every hand so quite a few would stay until 5th street. Don't get fancy and keep it simple, play premium drawing hands and you'll make money. There was a maniac in Sat's 3/6 7cs game that was great because everyone called until 5th street so it made for some decent pots. I beat him for a nice pot catching my opened ended strait on the last card that he had been razing or betting with A's Up the whole way. He dropped about 500 and I got up and left the table well ahead of what I expected to make in the short time I had to play. That was about the only interesting hand I had in three days, but if I think of another one I'll post it later.
The track was beautiful but they run at 6pm on th and fr. I didn't have time to stay around and sat I had to go before the 1:30 post.
The smoking sucks and as far as state of the art facility for smoking forget it. But if you don't mind smoke and like everybody staying in to the end making for big pots I would recommend this place. The limits are probably higher in the aft and even but I didn't go out to play cards or play the horses I was out there to see people so I had to chisel in my time to play and that was early morning. Definitely play drawing and live hands. Players for the most part that I saw had limited knowledge of the game. Felt like I was playing in a home game with ok dealers. Service was sparse at times and food was cheap no comps that I saw. If you play the horses definitely a beautiful track with good horses, I was sorry I couldn't stay to see some of the races. Unless it goes non-smoking I don't think I will go back except maybe for the horses!! Only three RV's in the parking lot that I saw.
Paul
Thanks for your review. I have family up near St Paul and had been thinking of going. Sounds like a nice place for a recreational player (except for all the smoke).
Thanks again.
J.
In about six months, ill be moving from the midwest to LA to attend UCLA. I'm planning on supporting myself by playing poker. I know a lot of twoplustwoers play and live in LA, any information you could give me would be great.
First of all, at what rooms can i find holdem games of limits 10-20, 15-30, and 20-40, on a consistent basis? Secondly, what areas, close to the school, are good to live in? Is it possible to find an apartment for less than 500$ in a decent neighborhood? Im worried about crime, LA does not have a very good reputation in this regard. Are there any card rooms close to the school? Anything else I should know about?
Thanks in advance. Ivan
Rent a room in a nice neighborhood rather than an apartment in a bad neighborhood. If you do this, you'll probably be able to support yourself at 20-40. If you rent an apartment in a nice neighborhood, you need to be at least a winning 40-80 player to make your monthly nut.
There are no card rooms really close to UCLA. Hollywood Park is about 15 miles down the second busiest freeway in the world. UCLA is in a nice area, but $500 isn't going to get a decent apartment.
All the rooms spread 15-30 and 20-40 around the clock. Hollywood Park and the Normandie have the only 10-20 game.
Best poker in the world. Good luck.
1. $500 a month won't buy you a decent hole in the ground in any neighborhood near UCLA. $700-800 is about where you need to start; you aren't exactly the only person looking for accomodation near the school, after all. 2. You can find the games you're looking for in south central LA, which is nor that far away distance-wise but can be an eternity, time-wise. It's hard to regularly fight the freeway traffic in that area without going slowly nuts. 3. If you plan to be a full-time student, you can't devote more than 25-30 hours/week to poker (some of that time burned up in just getting to and from the clubs). Actual playing time, less than 20 hrs./week. Let's say you play 15-30, the middle range of the games you mention. The BEST--the absolute best--players make 2 big bets/hour ($60). The house will take approximately $20 of that in time fees. So, to recap:
If you are one of the best players in the US you can beat these games for about $40/hr.
IF---BIG if-- you can maintain the abovementioned schedule and get in 20 hrs/week of play then your weekly earnings will be in the $700 range (you will have some overhead).
This is about $3000/month. From my experience it takes about $2000/month just to keep oneself fed and sheltered in LA. So, presuming you don't have an additional nut like loans or tuition payments, it'll work.
However, if you are NOT a top expert, you will net one big bet (or less) per hour and slowly go broke (in this case it's not enough to simply win, you must meet your monthly expenses out of your winnings).
All in all, it's kind of a pipe dream. If your studies demand more time than you expect (especially at certain times in the school year) then you will be unable to sustain ANY kind of decent earnings rate.
Thanks Kevin.
Ive seen a few apartments near the school listed for less than 500$, however, I dont know what kind of area it is.
I expect to make 20-30$ and hour. Considering a real job wont earn me this much, I think thats pretty good.
Thanks for mentioning the traffick. I would rather live close to the cardroom than close to the school actually. You mentioned south central, that doesnt sound to nice. Is there an area around the hollywood or LA casino thats nice to live in?
Thanks in advance.
What are your priorties going to be, school or poker?
There are no nice neighborhoods close to casinos. They all do require some degree of driving.
I think you need to seriously consider how you are going to support yourself. I believe you are being very knieve thinking you will be able to subsidize yourself by playing poker, and also going to a school such as UCLA full time. If you were attending USC perhaps. School is a full time comittment and poker can also become one. Most home town champions with no casino experience eventually wind up going broke. Poker can be an emotional rollorcoaster which certainly doesn't lend itself well with academia.
All the LA poker rooms are in lousy neighborhoods. That's because only the industrial cities of south LA County were willing to allow the big card casinos in in the 80's; that's because they were desperate for tax revenue. You best shot is to live somewhere within easy striking distance of the casinos via freeway. Glendale and Pasadena have good freeway access to the card clubs. However, it's a long pull from there to UCLA. It's true that some housing is available at the $500 level but it will most likely be in an older apartment complex in a bad neighborhood. As I said before, decent housing will run you at least $700. I would like to reiterate the above poster's warning. Being a full-time student is a tough (full-time) job. Being a professional poker player is even tougher. Trying to do the two simultaneously is almost impossible. Even if you have the skill to win in the LA cardrooms consistently---something which remains to be seen---you will be constantly busy with either classes, studies, commuting, or playing. You will have NO leisure time. Your health will undoubtedly suffer as you won't get enough sleep or proper food. What's more, if you have an insufficient bankroll (you need at LEAST $10,000 to survive at these limits) then you may go broke through bad fluctuations. My advice is that you don't piss away your education by trying to become a card pro when you should be concentrating on college. There's plenty of time to hit the cardrooms AFTER you graduate.
Ive already been doing this for years guys, its really not that bad. Poker is just a job. Much better than any other job because of the flexibility. It actually blends perfectly with academics. Of course, if the shit hits the fan, i can always get a real job. That would be much worse than playing poker though.
Im going for a phd in toxicology. I'll be able to adjust my schedule however I see fit. I really dont need that much money, just enough to pay the rent and feed myself. Tuition is covered. Im a student, im used to living without luxury, thats expected.
How is the Westwood area? Theres a room w/roomate for only 360$. Thanks again guys.
Take some advice from someone who lives on poker earnings while going to graduate school - I am doing the exact same thing. It is even tougher than trying to play poker while being an undergraduate.
Scientific research is simply far, far too demanding to leave room for poker. Even the brightest of students have trouble keeping on top of the scientific literature WITHOUT also having to think constantly about poker. Your graduate advisor, if s/he is anything approaching the norm, will expect that you spend enormous amounts of your time doing research. This will include evenings, weekends, and yes, weekend evenings.
Why don't you become a TA? Talk about hourly earnings - for just 10 hours a week you can take home about 1200 a month. Thats 30 dollars an hour TAKE HOME - and you always know where your next meal is coming from. I promise you that you will not make that much playing poker. PROMISE.
You say that you've been doing this for years, yet you are from the midwest. I hope you are not talking about home games. There is absolutely no correlation between home games, even high stakes home games, and casino poker will full time professionals.
Think it over some - I think you will find the TA route much less stress, and easier, and probably more fun too. Think of all those hot UCLA coeds you can meet! You won't see them at the bike I guarantee it.
-SmoothB-
Interesting, where do you go to school? You may be right about not having much time. Ive heard conflicting stories regarding the difficulty of grad school. Like i said though, the amount of academic work per semester is up to me. In this particular program, it is not uncommon to go part time, and work a regular job.
No, im not talking about home games. We have a couple good card rooms here in Michigan. I'll look into this TA thing, but I doubt if I'll be able to get away from poker completely. Thanks.
I am a law student at Stanford, and got my PhD in chemistry from Columbia.
You have heard conflicting tales of the difficulty of graduate school - there is a good reason for that. Some people have it easier than others. Some people get cushy graduate advisors, some get ball busters. One chemistry professor at Harvard makes all of the people in his group work 7 days a week, from 8AM to midnight. They are allowed sunday afternoons off to do laundry because other faculty complained that they looked like a bunch of hoodlums at seminars. And they smelled badly.
Who knows. You might get a cushy advisor. But let me give you the biggest word of caution of all:
Don't work for someone who is cushy because you will have enough spare time to play poker!
Many people are attracted to these cushy advisors because they are afraid to work for a hardass. But this is a huge mistake. Most of the time these 'nice guys' give you enough rope to hang yourself. You hang around making no progress, the nice guy is too nice to shake you up or kick you out, and before you know it you've spent 6 years in and have to take a masters.
I have seen it all my friend. Just be careful.
-SmoothB-
Post deleted at author's request.
As long as the closet has a bed, refrigerater, room for a table, and AC, thats all I need!
Im under the impression that LA games are extremely loose and wild. Maybe someone could elaborate a little more on the players style at the middle limits. If this is the case, some major adjustments will be needed on my part. Aggesive players tend to confuse me. However, I'm pretty confident I can beet this type of game.
Thank you.
In case you're still checking this thread, I thought I would offer some advice. I'm pretty familiar with neighborhoods around UCLA and if you want to run any specifics by me, I would be willing to help if you want to e-mail me. My girlfriend also is attending UCLA graduate school next year and I'm trying to help her find something close by as well.
As other posters mentioned, UCLA is not close to any of the casinos. But, if I were you, I would try to find something close to UCLA because you will probably be spending most of your time there anyway. So, you should probably look in the following areas: West LA, Westwood, and Santa Monica. There are decent areas that you could live in fairly close to the casinos, but you would be far from UCLA. You could find something in the $500 range in Culver City which isn't bad, but you would be about halfway between casino proximity and UCLA so you would probably have more overall driving.
As for the games you mentioned, the best place is probably COMMERCE. They have the most 15-30 and 20-40 games and probably the loosest. They also have some great 9-18 games. Unfortunately, the time charge is probably the highest at COMMERCE. However, it is probably 25-30 minutes from UCLA without traffic.
Hollywood Park is probably the second best (and closest to UCLA), but their high and midlimit has suffered since the opening of THE HUSTLER CASINO which isn't too much farther. THE BIKE is probably the same distance from UCLA as COMMERCE and the time charge is significantly cheaper, but they have significantly fewer games, but the atmosphere is quieter.
However, please know that not all these games are fast and loose like you might be expecting. You'll see all kinds of games and your bankroll might take large swings. If you plan to make your living this way, I would recommend a bankroll of around $10,000 for 20-40.
Sitting on a library shelf in Austin, TX are volumes I, II, III, IV of the collected works of William Shakespeare. Each book is identical in size, all having 2 and 1/2 inches of pages measured between the covers which are each 1/4" thick. A bookworm has taken up residence and has eaten his way from the first page of the first book to the last page of the last book. How much distance did he travel assuming he ate in a straight line (shortest distance between two points and all that)?
I'll say 5 1/2.
JohnnyD
If the books are ordered on the shelf as you say, the front cover of the first volume would be in contact with the back cover of the second volume. The back cover of the last volume would be in contact with the front of the third volume. So that would be two complete volumes and two covers eaten through - 6.5 inches.
/
;
I'm going to Vegas for the first time in August and was looking for some advice regarding which Casino's to stay in (Fairly cheap and central - Travelspace seem to have a decent selection) and which to play in (I mostly play Texas Hold'em).
And advice greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Stu
The best places to play Hold'em are the Mirage and Bellagio. Harrahs is located across the street from Mirage and Bellagio and it is not very expensive. If you do decide to splurge try out the Venetian. It too is across the street from Mirage and only a block from Bellagio. This is about as nice a hotel room as you can find, especially if you get a room with a great view.
I'll second that. The Venetian is the nicest hotel on the strip. If you want to stay there, call for rates. A couple of weeks ago, the internet rate was $229, I called direct and got a rate of $109, on the 24th floor.
Brett
You came to the right place.
Go to www.lvrs.com - This place has THE LOWEST rates on most hotels. And believe me, I've searched hard for the best deals.
You can usually get a room at Stratosphere for just 20 bucks a night on weekdays. Another cheap place on the strip is Sahara - 35 bucks a night or so on weekdays is typical. Sahara is one of the older places on the strip but I like it for some reason.
Play poker at Bellagio or Mirage. Those are supposed to be the best.
If you want to play a really easy low limit game though, head to Excalibur and play there. They have a spread limit 2-6 game there if you are a beginner. Playing in this game is really easy.
Stratosphere has a 2-10 spread limit game. I like this game better - just as easy, somewhat higher limit so you can win more. :)
Have fun.
-SmoothB-
Even though Becky is doing her best to ruin it, you can still get a great rate on a room at Binions when you play 4 hours in the poker room. The room has great action on the 1-4-8 game, although its a fairly small game, and the cigarette smoke can suck in there. Probably the best action in town on Omaha is there too, especially the high omaha game. I think if you get the casino rate its around 25/weekdays, 35/weekends and the rooms are fairly nice, but no Venetian. I really don't think the Mirage or Bellagio are that great actionwise for low limit hold'em. Harrahs might have a better game. The only thing about those two rooms is they do have many medium limit games, but this summer the low limit games are trash according to some friends that play regularly. If you really want to play around there and want a cheap room, your best bet is Imperial Palace. The rooms are pretty spartan, but they are much cheaper than anything in that area and you can't beat the location and the hotel isn't half as bad as its reputation. No its not luxury, but it doesnt sound like that is what you are looking for.
I've never played poker further south than Tunica, but am in Texas for the next 3 days, so I'm considering going the long way home and stopping in Shreveport if there are legal games there. If anyone has any poker information on Shreveport, please send me an e-mail of places and limits (I can't always get a dialup, but I can check my e-mail on my cell-phone). I'll post a trip report when I return. Thanks.
I'm considering the purchace of a Revolver. Mostly I want to be able to go out and target practice with it, but if it ever becomes nessasary (hopefully never) I would like to have it for home protection.
Important factors:
1. Accuracy
2. Cost and Supply of ammo
3. Easy care
With the above factors I think the best Revolver would be a Double action .357 Mag. I don't think a Semi Auto pistol would suit me. The .357 can also shoot 38s which would be decent and cheap for target practice.
I was also thinking of a 45 but the cost of Ammo was what turned me to thinking of a 357.
Now who makes the best 357?
Later, CV
(Sorry!..)
NT
Why do you think a semi-auto won't suit you? I think a good semi-auto is typically easier for a novice to shoot than a revolver. A semi-auto also holds more rounds. I also like semi-autos for aesthetic reasons. A well-built semi-auto like a Sig P220 or a Colt Match pistol is just a beautiful machine. It's actually fun to strip and clean them.
Cost of Ammo will always be a problem. You might consider getting a Ruger .22 semi-auto pistol or something like that. Shoot it for a while for cheap, get your stance, grip, etc. down right. Make sure you take a safety course. Once you're really comfortable with a handgun, you can usually sell guns like that for not much less than you paid for them. A lot of gun ranges will sell them on consignment for you. Or, just keep it for target shooting, get a 9mm or a .45 for home defense, and use both.
I've got a Colt Combat Commander that I really, really like. A classic.
I like the simplicity of the Revolver. I have a Ruger Old Army .457 Cap and Ball. It is really fun to shoot except it gets dirty quick and I can't leave it loaded for any amount of time. You probably know this, but black powder is very corrosive and moisture makes it non-combustable.
I'm going to try GOEX's new "Clearshot" synthetic Blackpower because I have read that people have been able to run 50 loads through their revolvers before having to clean the gun.
It's heavy too, but the one great thing about it is that it costs pennies to shoot it. It also shoots *Pure* lead Round Balls or Slugs. I just go down to the local recycling center, scrounge around for some lead pipe, heat it up and start pouring ammo.
I'm going to give this new GOEX a try, about the only thing that keeps me from shooting Black Powder more often is that the cleanup is a big drawback.
Then I can get a .45 or a .44 Mag instead of a .357 since I'll just target practice with my Black Power.
CV
chris,
the s&w model 19 4" barrel is a good place to start. if you will never carry it then go for the 6". next step up is the colt python but i like the smith. Ruger guns are good but a little heavy. some other companies like taurus make ok guns but id stick with what i said. nothing beats a good 22 for plinking though. its a must if you do alot of shooting. ruger makes the best for the dough and the reliability. the auto im talking about. for fun shooting i use my s&w 629 44 mag alot or shoot the glock 19 9mm. it never jams. for protection the best manstopper cartrige is the 357 125 grain bullet bar none. having an old glock with 20 rounds is also a formidible defence. here in montana we have few household robberies as almost all people have guns at home and anyone stupid enough to burglarize when someone is home doesnt get too many chances. its also perfectly legal to carry a loaded gun in your car and almost anyone can get a concealed weapon permit to carry.
"here in montana we have few household robberies as almost all people have guns at home"
God, what a wonderful place to live! Guns in the home!Good old boys for neighbors! Snow! Sheep in the garden! Must be heaven for you Z man.
Vince
I have never had anytrouble with my smith and wesson 357. Are you feelin' lucky.
Its S&W, Ruger, or Colt.
I seem to be a Ruger fan.
CV
There is only one reason to own a handgun---to kill someone with it. Whom do you wish to kill?
If you have some fantasy about protecting yourself with it, you should know that handguns are totally useless for home defense. Every gun nut fantasizes about hearing a burglar breaking into their house and pulling out the ol' shootin' iron and getting the drop on the bad guy (just like in the movies!) but what often happens instead is that the gun winds up killing a member of the household it was supposed to protect.
If you think you can use it to protect yourself in public, unless you wear it in a shoulder holster or something, whatever crisis occurs that you think the gun would be useful for would be upon you too quickly to react by going for your gun, and I can't think of too many situations that said gun wouldn't make worse rather than solving. (Unless you just want to teach than sumbitch who cut in front of you in traffic a lesson by pulling out the old .45 and emptying a clip into his trunk.)
Therefore, addressing the only practical concern you could possibly have, which is, you need to kill someone, may I suggest either a Berretta or Makharov equipped with silencer and hollow-point ammunition (you don't want your target recovering, after all). You might also consider cyanide-tipped bullets in case your aim goes awry and you only wing your victim, but you did say that cost of ammo was a concern, and those kind of bullets are a little pricey.
Another benefit of the above weapons is that they look kind of cool, and make the wielder feel so MANLY, especially with that long protruding silencer, an IDEAL penis substitute.
Happy hunting!
Ditto. Except for the penultimate paragraph. Don't have any recommendations about guns or ammo.
In Charlotte, on the same night as the opening of the recent national NRA convention, an intruder was shot and killed in a home defense. The intruder was apparently very high and making noise in entering the home. He was confronted by the resident; the intruder kept coming and the home owner fired.
I somewhat agree with your thoughts on guns. The potential for using them for defense is in my uniformed opinion rather small. However, I don't believe that this story got a lot of national attention and the timing alone made it newsworthy.
/
...then to need a gun and not have it.
Heard it in some movie.
Jeez, I feel like such a failure. Here I've owned guns all my life, and I've failed to kill anyone. Will they revoke my NRA membership over this?
Dan-
In Kevin L's perfect world, only the Feds will have any weapons, any power, and any right to think. They will protect us from others. They will protect us from ourselves.
And they are so much smarter and enlightened than the rest of us, that we don't even have to worry about who will protect us from THEM.
It seems ironic to me that someone who has this type of world view is a poker player. Afte all, it is the most individualistic of endeavors. Decisions are made by each man, for himself, and with only his profit motive and property rights (rules of the game) as his guide.
Man, I'll bet those Olympic Biathletes feel pretty stupid, eh? Here they've been using guns in competition, spending their entire youths to hone their Olympic skills, and all for nothing. I guess they needed someone like Kevin to tell them that the only purpose of guns is killing people.
For that matter, I'd better tell my wife before she gets more involved in IPSC pistol shooting. Man, how silly of her to think she could use a gun for a purpose other than killing someone!
I think Kevin just earned the fuzzy thinking award for the week. You know, I don't mind if you're against guns, but being as this is the twoplustwo forum, please try a better argument than the silly, "Guns have only ONE purpose" notion. That's just gotta be way beneath you.
Which model revolver do Biathletes use?
Many Olympians use Pellet guns or .22's I believe. Have you seen some of those single pump Pellet Guns. I tried one the other day and for the accuracy and power I think I'm going to trade in my .22 rifle and buy one of those. Some can fire a .177 pellet over 1200fps after only one pump. Varmints beware!
CV
I suggest that you, and everyone who agrees with you, post a sign on your front door reading
NO GUNS INSIDE
Be willing to stand up for what you believe.
Definitely a semi-automatic for ease of use.
Do you want to stop the intruder/attacker? If so, you'll need something big like a 357/45 or a flat 38. Forget the 22's. Twenty-twos are great for assinations/mafia hits and Air marshalls.
Just remember the chance of someone using it against you or accidental use of it by a kid is actually higher that you needing it for self-defense. Of course if you live in the "hood", then you might need one.
Your last paragraph is not true. The probability of you using your handgun to deter a home invasion is three times higher than the probability that it will be used to injure or kill someone in your family. The statistic you are quoting is one of the biggest fabrications Handgun Control Inc. managed to pass off on the people.
I like your thinking, Dan.
Usually the mediots just twist the truth to perpetuate their pro-state agenda. But on a few issues (guns, AIDS, tobacco, feminism, "racism", environmental war against Bosnia, etc. they tell or repeat outright lies.
I have no objections to hand guns at all, but the risks are there. If you live in NYC, you will probably be wise to have one. If you live in South Dakota, you probably more likely to have your nephew find it before you will need it for self defense in your home. My point is simply, guns in the home carry risks of someone finding them and using them.
Sure. On the other hand, if you live alone and have no kids, the chance of the gun being misused by your family is zero.
Guns aren't for everyone, obviously. If you have a house full of children, you had better have that gun in a gun safe, with the ammo stored separately under lock and key and a trigger lock on the gun (kids are resourceful). And if you do all that, the gun's value as a defensive weapon goes way down. Plus, no one should own a gun unless they know how to use it safely and responsibly.
Growing up in Rural Alberta in Canada, guns were a part of life. They were useful tools for clearing rodents that would dig holes that could break a cow or horse's leg. I learned to shoot safely when I was 12 years old, and I've owned a gun of my own ever since. I guess I'm part of that redneck gun culture that urban liberals hate so vehemently.
I'm an urban liberal and I think you're peachy keen :-).
That is a good example of sensible use of an essential tool. never object to something like that. I would consider it a necessity under those circumstances
Dan,
Gun accidents in the home are unfortunate but they are a price that must be paid for the greater good.
A gun does not even have to be used to be a deterrent. The fact that a potential intruder or stalker knows that we have (at least for now) the right to own a gun will deter many attacks or robberies. We as a society benifet from gun onership whether or not we chose to own one as individuals.
Note the situation in Florida where tourists were the victums of so many robberies and carjackings. The criminals knew that they would be unarmed, while Florida’s citizens have the right to carry concealed weapons.
Regards,
Rick.
GP100 IMO, accurate, good grip, easy to clean, several different models available. Kevin L's response is similar to most convicts and pushers. They can not function if they feel threatened; therefore an unarmed mass like Clinton/Gore want is what he wants! I wonder? Clinton/Gore?? Convict/Pusher both have the same ring to them don't they! both fear anyone that can defend themself
I havent seen Glock mentioned yet. Ive been told that Glock was probably the best automatic. Am I wrong?
Glock is used by a lot of PD's and is a decent firearm, but some earlier models have been plagued with some mechanical problems. I think most of the cops I know like the Glock, but realize there are better firearms out there. Personally, I do not know what is best.
The Glock is easy to shoot and to learn to use. Another advantage is that it doesn't have an exposed hammer, so it doesn't rile the citizenry as much.
There are other good automatics. Lots of cops carry the Beretta 9mm. Some carry Sig-Sauer P220's. But the Glock is simple and easy to care for, and not too expensive.
Many cops used to carry Colt .45's 'cocked and locked', but the site of a gun with the hammer pulled back would terrify people.
Hi everybody. Things haven't been going too well lately and I've decided that the best way to end everything is to shoot myself with a gun. However, I'm not sure what kind of a gun to buy. I want to make sure that I die quickly and painlessly. It would be horrible to live through something like that. I would also like to save some money. Thanx. Broke and desperate.
Get a tranquilizer gun. Ask Kavorkian for what to load it with.
The worst thing you can do is *not* put it in your mouth. The people that I've heard about that live through a gunshot wound to the head put the gun under their chin and blow their nose off. He He
Anything bigger than a .22 will do the job. If the bullet doesn't go through your brain and blow a big hole out the back it will probably bounce around your skull a couple times scrambling your gray matter quite nicely.
You can goto any gun store here in Idaho ask to look at a Revolver then ask to see the ammo it uses. Once you have those two items you just load it and shoot. No money down.
CV
My wife has treated a number of people who have tried to kill themselves with a gunshot wound to the head and lived. Some put the gun to their temple and lobotomize themselves. Others try under the chin and as you say it ricochets off bone and comes out in a nasty place. Not recommended.
The surest way to kill yourself, btw, is not with a gun. It's a fall from a tall height. Get high enough, and it's guaranteed 100% fatal.
as opposed to a fall from a short height or a tall weight . . .
n/t
Get a used 12-ga. shotgun, load it with a deer slug. Total cost should be under $150. Place the butt on the floor, the muzzle between your eyebrows, and push down on the trigger (use your toe if you can't reach). You shouldn't feel a thing.
That should make your money back, and more
Door with 4 panes of glass that I exit thru at work as oppossed to entering thru to go to work. Same Revolver Door but totally different killing powers.
paul
Take your Statist dogma and liberal drivel over to Salon.com.
Why do you think you (or your elected oppressors) are some damn omnipotent and benevolent? Your self-rightousness is comical to the point of self parody.
Examples:
1. If Chris wants to purchase a handgun, he must be a repressed, homicidal homosexual.
2. If Mark seeks indpendent, intellectual truth about the cause and effect of AIDS and AIDS symptoms, he must be a gay-bashing corporate pawn.
What a judgmental, arrogant, ignorant, anti-individual, and hateful world view. I would pity your type if I didn't fear them so much.
Don't tread on me!
I disagree with your sentiment that KevinL or others who espouse racial, sexist, anti-semitic, anti-gay, xenophobic philosophies should find somewhere else to post. I think it's important to know these people are out there. Like I tell my children the holocause can happen again, maybe not in my lifetime, but definitely in theirs. So, keep a shotgun in the closet and when someone comes to get you at 3 a.m. shoot through the door. After a thousand or so brown shirts get their heads blown off the knocking on the door might stop.
bart wrote: >So, keep a shotgun in the closet and when someone >comes to get you at 3 a.m. shoot through the door.
Man, I sure hope that my car doesn't break down in the middle of the night in front of your house.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Fossilman-
Don't you have some "price gouging" to get back to?
How was the trip to New York?
After reading several posts by Kevin L, it's pretty obvious that he's a sick and troubled person. His posts are best not read at all. I don't click on them, ever.
i have returned from my sojurn overseas to find that krister has still not provided even a slice of delicious pizza to myself (i sure could have used in europe. i had to eat a pigeon!) or any of my associates, who are likely as hungry as i (especially joe!).
needless to say, this vexes me greatly. does krister think he can indefinitely piss in the face of our authority without experiencing a world of pain? if so, he will soon be liberated from his misperception.
krister must have anticipated the wheel of fortuna dragging him down, as he has adopted a strategy of hiding from his creditors. case in point, i called krister at work to find that he had changed his extension. (it is possible that his parents gave me the wrong extension a few weeks ago because they think i am a bad influence on him. well they're right! because i am going to kill him.)
lest you think i am joking i will here reveal a terrible secret of krister's. without further ado: he likes rush. the band. that's right, he actually does. i hope the realization that the punishment will only get worse will prompt krister to provide me with said pizza as soon as possible. how can it get worse, you ask. you'll see.
john, if you are waiting with baited breath after only a few short weeks of krister's insolence, imagine enduring years of this torment.
scott
Aren't they? my car just died and I'm trying to extoll the virtues of a canvas top to the parents, but they aren't buying. But even if I did get one it would most likely be subsequently egged by krister's crazy girlfriend. She did it once to Alex, she'll do it again. All more proof of why Krister and his brazen acts must be nipped in the bud. Know this Krister, your time will come. However, if you can convince my parents to buy a convertible, all will be forgiven.
Mark
that is ridiculous. let me tell you how it works in the united states of america. people give their children their old cars when they are in high school. these cars break down sometime during college. you were ok up to this point. what happens next is that you buy yourself a car! usally used, almost always cheap, but it is yours. you pay for it. if you want a convertible, buy one. if you can't afford one, tough shit. you can still cut the top off some crap car you can afford. you can use my hack saw but if you break it you will have to replace it. and quickly.
i plan to buy a motorcycle when my car breaks down. they don't cost too much and have real good acceleration and they can weave through traffic well.
as for you giving immunity for this or any other reason to the infidel formerly known as krister, he gets no immunity from me. not from me.
and if krister's girlfriend eggs my car, i'll throw her out of a window.
scott
of their virtue. prolly not the "have real good acceleration and they can weave through traffic well." approach though. something about oh, they're so dangerous. admittedly it is my money, so i think i should be able to buy one if i want to, it's just that my parents are like, sure, go ahead, however we might have to reconsider our financial situation if you do buy one however. translation: get outta my house with that thing, it's too dangerous. and since painting is the worst job ever, i can't afford to do that.
my argument: they're ecconomical - they're inexpensive to buy, maintain, and keep, not to mention insurance is like 1/5th that of a car. additionally, if they're not safe, why did you [dad] have one when you were about my age??!! [21, okay, so 3 yrs older] heck, even your dad had one when he was younger!
their argument: they're dangerous
the best i've been able to get is, if my dad gets one, he'll let me get one. yeah, like that's happening. can anyone see my dad on a bike? he'd kill it!
regardless...
positive reinforcement is appreciated.
additionally, about scott throwing krister's girlfriend out of a window, i don't know... she's bigger than you.
hopin for pizza.
-Joe
P.S. Intern at Microsoft over the summer, there's like 3 casinos with poker (don't have more details than that) about an hour away. Didn't get a chance to stop by them, but they look promising.
dont forget that they are real easy to park. and chicks dig 'em. and they never into traffic jams (note previous weave through traffic comment).
make up some statistics about how much harder it is to get into wrecks because of its smaller size.
in any case, if you let me play with the motorcycle, you can sleep in my garage.
actually your parents are bluffing about kicking you out. buy the bike. it's a matter of brinkmanship.
if i cant throw her out the window as she is, i'll just have to cut her into smaller pieces first.
how do you expect to reap the benifits of pizza from seattle? you are aware that once krister hosts poker 2 or 3 times his debts are cleared, even if you personally recieved none of it, aren't you? you better fly into town for the poker game if you want to ever be fed by krister.
don't lose all money like you did at turning stone.
scott
but I got to use the old volvo station wagon when I was home, and now that it's died they need a car to replace it, and if a convertible is not the perfect car I don't know what is. enough said.
Mark
Over the Holiday weeked I managed to play a few days at Harrah's in east Chicago. On the second night at 1:00AM our table hit the Bad Beat Jackpot for $20,000.00. The other players shares were 638.00 ($37 to much because taxes kick in at $601.00) The main hands got 10k and 5k. They stacked 10K in green chips infront of the loser of the hand.(he was 1 seat to my right. The winner was 1 seat to my left :-(
The question I have is that a few hands before the hit (were were very close 3 times )one player was cheering for the bad beat and another player said "Hey Don't say the words Bad Beat during the hand or we get NADA, ZIP , ZERO. We asked the dealer and she agreed "Yup that's the rule" But is it a rule if it's never told to the players. I asked the floor while filling out the paper work and he said though we review the tape it's very hard to enforce the rule. It's up to the dealer to inform us of any violations. But the dealer would never do that or his "TIP" would be ZIP.
So if you find yourself in a bad beat game remember Mums the word.
Best of it !!
MJ
Mike you will find the rules posted somewhere. The other palyers are probably correst that the players are not supposed to talk about the jackpot during a hand. The house will not pay if there are any irregularities such as the dealer not dropping a chip in the jackpot rathole.
Hey Mike,
If your in town I will be heading out to Hollywood Friday night 5-10 or 10-20 HE, stop by !!
Mike H.
I will most probably be there Fri and Sat looking for some of that 5-10 money.
This should be easy for poker players, but regular guys usually blow it.
You are trailing in a basketball by 2 points with 2 seconds left on the clock.
For your last shot, do you give it to:
Center who shoots 50% for a 2-pointer?
Guard who shoots 30% from 3-point range, for a 3-pointer?
Does it matter?
Ignore what night happen if they foul you ar how they might alter the defense. Just assume you get the shot off.
it obviously depends on how your team fares to do in overtime. assuming the teams are evenly matched the 3 pointer is way to go.
scott
If your chances of winning in overtime are greater than 60%, go for 2. If they are less than 60%, go for 3. If your chances are exactly 60%, flip a coin and if it lands on heads go for 2, if it lands on tails go for 3. I believe this is proper game theory ;). If the coin lands on its side pound on the ground next to the coin until it flips on one side or the other.
Ignoring the overtime situation, I would solve the problem by putting a value on winning of say 100.
That would mean that your equity in going for the two points would be 25 and the 3 points it would be 30. So the 3 points would appear to be the right choice.
It was 25 years ago today that the great filly passed away.
Nevwer headed in her entire career then is a match ract with Foolish Pleasure (If my memory serves me) she broke her leg, I cried like a baby when she died.
Didn't realize it had been that long.
I will be visiting the Bremerton, WA area later this month on business and would like some personal recommendations as to the best places to play some low-limit hold'em after work and on the weekend. Thanks!
JYC,
There has been quite a bit of discussion on the list about Seattle area poker (Bremerton is a 60 Min. ferry from downtown Seattle). Search the archives for Seattle and you should get some good rundowns on the rooms around here. If you get stuck you can email me and I can supply some details.
KJS
All I can say is if you run into an old guy named JD with long gray hair and a beat up white bb cap - look out. This guy is a player.
I was just in the area last week. I played at Suquamish Clearwater about half an hour north of Bremerton. They had 1-5-10 stud and 4-8 hold 'em. $2.50 rake. Phone is 360-598-6889.There is also Chip's in Bremerton (Riddell and Wheaton). 4-8 hold 'em daily, some higher on weekends. 360-377-8322. The Emerald Queen in Tacoma has a variety of games and limits. 1-888-831-7655. Good luck.
Just watched this the other night. Wow, talk about intense.. Very depressing but what fantastic performances by Hilary Swank and Chloe Sevigny. I'm trying to think of other recent great actress roles and I'm drawing a blank. Of course when you consider that most 'serious' actress roles are either ludicrous tripe like Kidman-Eyes Wide Shut and Arquette-Bringing Out The Dead or else simple ornaments/playthings/victims like MI2, etc., it's not surprising.
Oh, wait, there's always the hooker with the heart of gold parts, like whatshername in Leaving Las Vegas(she WAS great, though). Sigh.
I also rented the documentary BDC was based on; Swank and Sevigny(and everyone else, really) look eiriely like the people they portrayed. Great adaptation of the story, too.
I know plenty about Sevigny(rent Trees Lounge tonight, pass on The Last Days of Disco), but what else has Swank been in?
Bill,
For answers to thes kinds of questions, go to www.imbd.com, The Internet Movie Database, where you'll find filmographies and other assorted bits of information.
John
x
She was 'The Next Karate Kid', believe it or not. She looked totally different, too.
I never understood "naturalistic" art like this movie. Sure, ordinary people live strange lives and die even stranger deaths every day. But why make a movie about it?
True art portrays the world as it might be, and ought to be. (paraphrasing Aristotle)
One man's opinion.
For the opposite world view from the one portrayed in this movie, I would recommend:
High Noon Dr. No Shane The Fountainhead Singin' in the Rain
More recently, and even more rare:
Braveheart The Patriot (albeit pretty flawed) Pretty Woman Star Wars
The hooker with the heart of gold snags the businessman is "the way the world oughta be"??
I get your point about idealistic art v. naturalistic art(I've read Rand, too :) ).
The point about BDC I was trying to make is that I couldn't have cared less what this particular movie was about(I read the synopsis when it was first released and had no interest and only rented it on a friend's recommendation), I was just absolutely mesmerized by Swank and Sevigny's performances. I'm simply admiring their acting skill. They made these losers seem dignified and even noble(see the documentary for contrast), and Swank completely sells the impersonation, even though you know from the beginning she's a woman.
Hell, I even had hope for them right up til the end, even though I knew how it turned out. Simply great performances; in fact, offhand I can only think of De Niro in Taxi Driver as on a par with Swank here, although I bet you didn't like that movie, either!
I am familiar with the "hooker with a heart of gold" bromide, but do not think it applies to the theme of this story, Vivian or the businessman in Pretty Woman. Sure she "snags" him, but she does so, not be his acceptance of her faults, but by demanding more of herself and him.
She rejects his offer to make her a kept woman, because she has reformed. He desires her in the end, not for her flaws, or her "realness", but rather because she is much more than a "hooker with a heart of gold", and she brings out the best in him. And he has reformed, both personally and professionally. He rejects his former flawed self, one who destroys businesses and other businessmen, just for the thrill of the kill. The Jason Alexander character represents this ideal until the end. If you've read Rand, I see a lot of Gail Wynand's cynicism and misanthropy in his character, but one who is "saved" before it is too late.
Granted, a lot of this story was in superficial Hollywood fashion, but its is still better than most. I was struggling a bit with some decent movies for the list.
Before you go throwing more laud onto Hillary Swank, you should know that the mother of the boy/girl she plays in the movie *blasted* her and the movie for not being accurate, and not portraying her daughter in the right way.
I also thought her Oscar speech was pretty shallow considering the part she won the award for playing.
Mrs. Brandon's reaction is understandable, but from reading an interview w/the director-writer of BDC, it's clear that BDC was never meant to be a point by point "this is exactly what happened" film. That's what documentaries are for; and in this case I think it is especially helpful to watch "The Brandon Teena Story" right after BDC.
FYI according to the credits, both Lana Tisdell(the Chloe Sevigny part) and her mother contributed significantly to BDC, so they probably are happier with it than the Brandon family.
I don't see how Swank's Oscar speech could be any worse than say, Gwyneth Paltrow's or Susan Sarandon's.
How about Sirgorney Weaver in Alien?
Or Meril Streep in most anything.
Liz Taylor in Virginia Wolf.
Betty Davis in Baby Jane (what's the name?).
Do we need to start a list of serious female roles? Are you only referring to contemporary films? I heard that Julis Roberts was outstanding as Erin Brokovitch.
Vince
Dear 2+2 Admin, Please change these dreadful colors. It's sooooo easy to do. Puce colors went out with the hoola-hoop. It's a great forum, but it looks like sh*t.
Gus,
Try the third party browser "Opera 4.0" from www.operasoftware.com. You can select your own background color. But it also loads quicker and gets pages faster. It has many other advantages.
The downdide is that you have to tweak it to use with RealPlayer and stuff like that. You get a thrity day free trial (thirty days can be spread over a longer period) then it costs $30.
Regards,
Rick
Chuck,
Aesthetics aside, I find this combination of colors very easy on the eyes. After all, I'd rather be dazzled by the content than by the appearance.
do you have access to computers at work yet? how about a phone?
in any case, i need to know if you want to see rage with alex and i. first sat of august.
also, why haven't i played cards since i got back from europe? it has been 3 days! take care of it.
have you and whoever else is also going to dylan gotten your tickets yet?
Dylan in concert is like playing poker for play money.
I read a great review of a Dylan concert. The guy said "I once wrote that I would pay good money to listen to Dylan breathing loudly. I never said that I would py good money to hear him breathing softly."
I love the guy's records, but he has always disappointed me live. Go see Steve Earle instead.
We can have poker at my house tonight... the bad news is that I am at work and don't have anyone's phone number so you guys are going to have to organize it. I'll be home about 6:00. My work number is 301-953-7213 ext 325.
Jeebus! You really need to do better than that if you want a game to happen. All you have to do is tell Niels that you can host. He always seems to take care of everything else, cause he's awesome. I'm disappointed, tho I prolly wouldn't have made last night anyway. Oh well.
Find me some poker!
Oh, about the game that Brock was in in VA, he doesn't play in it anymore, I don't know if it continues either. He's pretty much converted wholly to Paradise, and plays fricken 20-40! I watched him play a bit the other night... Is it just me or are those games really soft? Regardless...
Home in MD and hungry for some thin crust mushroom and pepperoni.
-Joe
*
I'll be in Las Vegas on Saturday & Sunday, 7/15-16. I plan to swing by the Mirage, Bellagio, and perhaps the Orleans if there is any preliminary tournament action going on, in order to try to meet some of my forum friends.
If you would like me to say hi, e-mail me (or post here) and let me know where/when you might be over that weekend.
I'll be staying at the Las Vegas Club (we get free rooms there); you could leave a message for my room there as well, after Friday evening.
Dick Astrom
Dick,
I will look for you! Maybe you can introduce me to Mason and David. I'm too bashful to approach them on my own. Besides I know they wouldn't dare shun you. After all, you have your own web page.
Vince
What, no trip report? How many weeks have you been on the road? You at least owe us your opinions on the casino's you played in.
Not sure about Sklansky, but you should introduce yourself to Mason. He's real easy to get along with since he got a girlfriend.
Brett
Hey 3 Bet,
I am currently in Vegas. I left Amesbury MA on 17 Jun. Stayed in Atlantic City NJ until the 20th and headed to Tunica. I played at the Taj Mahal and Tropicana Casinos. I ended up losing $200 in 10-20 and 15-30 Holdem games. I recouped my losses by buying 10% of my buddy Dangerous Dan. He won the Friday night NLH tournament at the Trop. More correctly he chopped it up with two others but was chip leader and was awarded first place.
When I got to Tunica I was not feeling well. I believe I had the flu. I stayed at the Horseshoe. Do yourself a favor. If you ever go to Tunica and stay at the Horseshoe ask for a room in the main hotel. Make sure you do not get room 3210. It is a mile and a half from the elevator and you must have been maze trained to locate it. It was not a great experience. Also when you ask for a tuna sandwhich at the snack bar make sure they don't give you chicken salad as a joke. I'm sure that must have been the reason why I was given the bird. When I arrived I immediately headed for the Poker room. It is managed by an ex vegas pro whose name escapes me. I had him put me on the 10-20 HE list and headed for my room after he assured me the game would be going all night. I fell asleep after watching the NBA Finals final (double final means it is all over) game. When I woke up the only game going in the Casino was a 4-8 game. I decided that Tunica was not my cup of tea and headed for New Mexico. When I got to Sandia I still felt like crapola and decided to skip New Mexico poker. Ditto for Arizona. I slept one night in my 1988 Dodge Omni and headed for Vegas.
When I got to Vegas I felt a little better and bedded down at my nieces with plans to head for LA the next day. I woke up feeling like caca(r) and left my nieces about 8 a.m. I decided to play in the noon HE tournament at the Orleans. It didn't take long for me to get knocked out and by 3 p.m. I was on my way to LA.
I got to LA abot 7:45 and headed for the Hustler Casino opening. I forget the date. I saw Ron Jeremy there. Porn Star. Dick Van Patten was playing 10 Omaha Hilo. And Jonny Chan was playing in 300-600 mixed game. I didn't play. I headed for Crystale Park Hotel and got a room. I then played ina 15-30 game in thier poker room. There were 5 prop's in the game. I won $650 in about four hours and went to bed. Over the next two weeks I played every day at either Crystal Park or Hollywood Park. I saw Rick Nebiolo at HP but did not introduce myself. I will when I return. I did not play very long on any day. I was about $3000 ahead after the two weeks. playing 15-30 Holdem and Stud. I like the Hollywood Park Casino for the levels I play. The floor men were great. The room is big and well lighted. The food is o.k but not great.
Hustler Casino is a must for all that travel to LA for a short visit. The games are good. The floor people are great. Larry Flint plays 15-30(X100) there most nights. The food is great along with the decor. The only problem with the room is that it is small and the table are crowded together. People are always pushing your chair to get by. Gets a little anoying after a while.
Crystal Park Hotel is a fine place to stay IMO. Rooms are ok and security is fine. They have a shuttle to HP if you don't want to drive or play at CP. I like the 15 HE games at Cryatal Park even though they are usually populated with 4or more props. If you can't play with props you shouldn't be playing 15 or above anyway so they are not a problem for me. In fact they are all fun guys to play with.
So far in Vegas I ahve only played in Tournaments. I finished 7th in a noon tournament at the Orleans just getting alittle more than my money back. Last night, Friday, I went to Bellagio's after losing 4 satellites at the Orleans. I was going to introduce myself to David Sklansky. But to my shagrin he was not there. I was about to leave whrnI spotted Mason playing what I thought was 15 Stud. I immediately put my name on the stud list and waited. % minutes later the fellow on Mason's right gets up and leaves. But no one calls for a stud player. Instead I hear Opne seating for 15 Razz. The only thing I know about Razz is that it looks like it was named after Ra(y) Z(ee). I took the seat anyway. The first hand I was dealt I had the Js/9h6c. When it was my turn to act I though about Mike Caro of all people. So I called. I wish know I had raised! Mason asked me three tiems if the red chip in front of me was a call or my ante. He couldn't believe I called. When I said yes that's a call he immediately raised and it went heads up. Him and me. On fourth street I got the 9s and still thinking of Caro I was going to bet but instead checked and folded when Mason bet. I then turned to him and said: "I only called so I could get a cheap lesson from Mason Malmuth" He smirked a little and I said "Hi I'm Vince Lepore and extended my hand". Mason took my hand and said "Really are you Vince?." I said "Yes" but thought to myself what was he thinking. Who in their right mind would want to impersonate me. Vince Lepore that is. Anyway we talked for a few minutes. Mostly about 2+2 and then Mason went off and played 30 stud. I was not greatly moved by meeting Mason. I thought he should have invited me home for a club snadwhich or something. Oh well maybe I'll have better luck with David! I'm headed to Bellagios tonite!
That's about it!
Vince.
Vince,
Are you by chance walking across America?
Regards,
Rick
Close Rick "TALKING ACROSS AMERICA"
paul
Rick,
I watched you play a little 15-30 Holdem at HP. After a few minutes I tried to bribe the floorman to get me in your game. Your lucky that the HP floormen can't be bribed. Well not all of them anyway. I will see you when I get back to LA. This time I will not let those good looks intimidate me. I'm gonna come right up to you and show you what a real poekr player looks like. That is if John Feeney aggrees to come with me.
Vince.
Vince,
You are my hero. How could you not introduce yourself?
Regards,
Rick
FWIW... I was at Commerce today and checked on the brand of cards they're using. It's "A-Plus". They don't have the warping problem KEM has had recently. Chuck McCormick at Oceans Eleven told me a few days ago that O-11 had switched briefly to A-Plus a while back, but had found the cards too suseptible to fingernail marks. The floorman at Commerce, however, had not found this to be a significant problem with the cards. I haven't noticed it either. I don't know, however, if there are different grades of cards (no pun intended) within the A-Plus line. Maybe some cardrooms should take a look at A-Plus??
From my experience, the A-Plus cards are more easily creased then Kem cards (a long time ago I inadvertently creased like 5 of my starting hands not realizing what I was doing) . Also the A-Plus cards look like crap. The Kem cards are nicely colored while the A-Plus cards are low in detail and color (obviously I'm talking about the face cards here). Obviously these factors are not really important but look at the two brands side by side....Kem look nicer. Also, those A-Plus cards are stiff as a board. Sadly I must admit that these factors are not very important when compared to the warping issue.
Then again, at least the threat of going from Kem to A-Plus isn't as bad as the 4 color deck :-)
just out of idel curiosity
thanks
P.S yes i am toi lazy to look it up in a atlas
nm
Taxes.
I am for the first time in my poker career going to be obligated to report a few different tournament wins.
Because I unfortunately also have some gambling losses to report, I will need to figure out how to do this on my tax return this year.
Any advice on how to get started learning about this? Are there some websites/resources? I have bookmarked the IRS forms and publications center, but the forms don't look to helpful for reporting losses.
Post deleted at author's request.
If you get audited, are personal records of session wins and losses going to pass muster. It is tough to get much more for a ring game. "Excuse me Mr. Floorman, but can I have a receipt for the 2 grand I just tilted off?"
handwritten records in a little notebook are perfectly acceptable at an audit. The IRS does apply a rule of reason, and knows that nothing more tamper-proof is available, so they accept such records out of necessity. The more detailed the record, the better off you are. I know that they ask you to supply date, time, table #, amount won or lost, other players at the table. It is the latter that is the toughest, since you sometimes won't know anyone else at the table. And, even if you do, just writing down John, Mike, and Vinny, plus 6 strangers, won't help the IRS to confirm your records.
later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
It sucks. I have to write a check for $22K by the 15th of Aug and is sucks big time. Not all the tax is on gambling winnings but some of it is. The casinos in Arizona insisted on giving us w2g's on winnings over $600 (they have since seen the light and stopped). It is complicated by tax law but my CPA told me if I tried to deduct my travel axpenses I'd be considered a professional and had to play self emplayment tax and sure to be subject of an audit.
So I bit the bullet.
All I can say is keep good records and cut all the corners you can.
Thanks!
Is anyone interested in a poker weekend 2 hours from Chicago - affordable cottages and nice room to play in.
About 20 players can be accomidated.
If I get eneough interest I'l organize it.
I can see atleast 4 tournaments over a couple of days.
And all the live play you like.
Rounder,
Two hours in what direction? And at what limit? I'm in Madison, so I may be interested, yet I am poor, so maybe I wouldn't be. :) Good luck in setting something up.
Jon I.
North central Indiana.
I envision - Hold 'em tournaments with buyins from $25 to $200 and possibly one rebuy and add on. Little or no juice. Live games with no rake would also be organized.
Price taking care of lodging and food and drinks.
Hi Mike,
Sounds good. What's the date?
I have a few others that may join in if we can all agree on a good weekend.
Mike H.
You know I think there will be a great turn out I will get back with dates and then we can discuss the details which I am very flexable about.
.
Mike, Let me kow the deatails. My son is in Madison Wi and I could make a dual purpose trip.
Vince
Mike,
as long as we keep it reasonable, you can count me in. hate to throw all of my money away.
Kevin
Anyone interested in playing low-limit straight poker in Madison, WI. I'm trying to get a monthly game together. Mostly hold'em, omaha, and stud. Post your e-mail and I'll contact you.
Jon I.
Jon what limits I am only an hour and a half from Madison.
Rounder,
Don't laugh, but we currently play split-limit $.25/$.50. I know it's small potatoes, but we are guys in our 20s just getting started in life.
I can see eventually getting up to $.50/$1 and $1/$2 in the next year or so.
Long way to drive for such small stakes.
Jon I.
Jon,
The problem is that serious players like to play seriuous stakes. Most regular "casino-style" players want to play at least 3/6, preferably 5/10. I myself dip as low as 1/2, but I prefer to play higher limits. If you are desperate for "serious" poker, try the online games.
- Andrew
Jon I,
What limit?
MJ
s
I lived in Madison for four years, but the only people I could play with were those "ok, um...all face cards are wild and you can buy back two cards in your hand" players.
OTOH, I wasn't on this website two years ago, so I wouldn't have known about it even if you posted. But that's not the point!
Dan
Sorry Dan. While I grew up in Madison, I had been away for college and law school. Just got back in August with plans to stick for a while.
Having a hard time getting a semi-serious low-stakes game together. I'm made a few converts to straight (real) poker among my old high school friends, but I struggle to get numbers for even a monthly game.
I assume the four years you spent in Madison were for college. No good regular games among the UW students?
Jon I.
Well, freshman year there was no shortage of people who wanted to play games. We once had 15 people playing blackjack against the "house." Senior year I played most every night with a group. I quit, probably a little too late, because I suspected less than ethical happenings between two of the players in the high low games. Overall, I'm sure there wasn't any shortage of poker games going on...but serious students of the game? Or even serious games with less than stellar players? Not that I could find.
Then again, while I was there I didn't study poker either. Pot odds? What the hell difference does that make? It doesn't affect what card is coming up next, right?
And now I'm back home and all my friends abhor poker. I abhor the $4 rake and 30 minute commute to the one casino that offers hold-em, but whatcha gonna do?
Dan
High school poker was fun with games like guts, follow-the-queen, and in-between. College was poker limbo -- getting a game together really never even crossed my mind. In law school I actually got some games together, but they were just an excuse to get drunk and we played the same games (and at the same level) as in high school.
Only a year ago did I seriously take up the game from a strategic and theoretical standpoint. Subsequently I became a poker purist (and snob). I've had reasonable success turning some of my high school friends away from junk and onto games such as Hold'em and O/8. And we are playing for stakes sufficient to create a more serious atmosphere. I'm sorry you're not still in Madison.
Jon I.
Sorry I missed you at the Trop after Dangerous Dan et al split up the winnings. I came back and just missed you. Let me know when you are in the area next time. Guess I should have invested in you. I have not switched to HE yet, but it's coming. Looks like you might win the bet.
Ratso,
You made the right decision on not backing my tournament play. Even though I am about even now in tournament play I think I'm going to lay off of them for a while. I am going to stick to ring games and see how I do. Tournaments drain me psychologically. I think my ego gets in the way. I'm not sure if I will ever get to A.C again but if I do I will certainly look for tht Ratso land mark. That being you of course.
Vince
Since I moved I have not been able to find RGP I am able to get in to remarq but it sux.
Pls give me the RGP URL - many thanks.
Rounder.
Whats wrong with remarQ? I like it. But if you must use another one, you can get it through Outlook at news:rec.gambling.poker (I suppose you know that) and through deja at www.deja.com/group/rec.gambling.poker
But don't knock remarQ!
Regards,
Richard
There is no URL, per se, for a newsgroup. Websites like remarq and deja provide access to newsgroups through their URLs. However, most folks access newsgroups through the newsreaders built into their email software, like the Outlook Express I use with AT&T worldnet.
Who is your ISP now? There should be some sort of newsreader that they provided when you opened your account.
BTW, send me your private email, Rounder. It appears that you're trying to find some poker games now that you live in Chicagoland, and I'm trying to help. I've got a call into an old acquaintance, and if you want, I'll see about getting him to get you into some home games. Tell me where exactly you're living, and I'll try to get something that isn't so far. I also have connections for games in Milwaukee and Madison.
If anyone else sees this and wants an in, I'll probably have to say no unless you're already a long-time poster to the group. I just don't want to risk sending LE to a friends house for a friendly home game, and causing trouble.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
If you sent a squezzer like Rounder to MY home game, THAT would be causing trouble!!
nmsg
Post deleted at author's request.
http://x30.deja.com/[ST_rn=fs]/topics_if.xp?search=topic&group=rec.gambling.poker&GRPP=958744037.153550853&title=Related&query=poker
this is what I gave you a few months ago. If it doesn't work, just go to the deja.com home page and dig in to get to rec.gambling.poker.
Rounder try http://www.newsguy.com.
You pay $25 a year for the basic service. Very simple to use. I like the way newsguy presents newsgroups a lot. I've tried newsreaders etc. but I prefer newsguy because I can read newsgroups like rec.gambling.poker on any machine with any browser as long as I am connected to the internet with any ISP.
nt
I was in Chicago this past weekend for the Western Open golf tourney. I was looking forward to playing poker in Joliet at the Empress. The poker room was closed on Fridays and Saturdays. The Hollywood in Aurora was closed also. I take that as a sign that they don't make nearly as much on Poker as roulette, etc.
Disappointing
nt
You mean they aren't open on the weekends? When the heck am I supposed to play (when I start playing casino poker). Is this the same with the Iowa riverboats?
Jon I.
The Empress in Joliet has poker on the weekdays only. On Fridays they close early. I was told by one of the dealers at the Empress that they have a limit by state law of gaming spaces available. This means that they want to open all there BJ tables for the weekend business. So, the real problem here is the State of Illinois. I suggest that you try Harrah's in East Chicago Indiana for poker.
When I lived in the area, the Hollywood in Aurora used to have tables open Friday nights and Saturday days until 8 pm or so. They also used to be open Sunday all day. Is this no longer true? What are their hours now?
The Hollywood closes Friday evening, is closed all day Saturday, and reopens at 8:00 am Sunday.
The Empress in Joliet closes Friday evening until Sunday evening at 7:00 pm.
The best room going is Harrah's in East Chicago. It's never closed. The action is good 7 days a week. Call 90 min before boarding to get on the board then the wait is not so bad. Times are every 2 hours 1,3,5,7,9,11 PM
Harrah's Poker Room 1(219) 378-3558
Best of it !!
MJ
Empress Joliet is open Mon-Friday, but they close at like 6 or 8 pm on friday to open the lower level gaming room.
they are opening up at 7pm i believe on sundays from now on.
I have been having lots of problems with the poker room manager lately, with names getting swiped from the lists, and "regulars" getting seated faster than it seems they should have. be carefull
Kevin
Hollywood in Aurora is open on weekends. They close the room at either six or eight pm on Saturdays.
I played there once. It was fun!!!
Me too. I had a grand time.
Does anyone know what typical poker dealer makes in AC before tips? I have routinely seen them cashing in $100+ in tips per 8 hr shift. Also what is a typical tip percentage? I tip based on what I have won on the hand, not on pot size. When I win $40-$50 pot and nearly 50% of pot was my contribution I think .50 is enough(i am dealing with 10%rake up to $4). Some dealers whine(in various fashions) about tipping. At least I don't give them a piece of hard candy like some old ladies do. In addition to tipping when I win, I also tip the best dealers whether I win or not. I don't recall people not tippng when dealer performs poorly. With a series of offsetting wins and losses, the only people I am making money for is the house and dealer.
I believe they make $6.50/hr. I find the best dealers at the Trop overall. There certainly some who are bad, but the Taj has some who are horrible. Although the Taj has some good ones.
Most 5-10 players give 50 cents-1.00 in a decent pot. 10-20 usually 1.00. A good dealer who is accurate and fast and does not bullshit around yet is amicable can make >25/hr in tips in low-mid limit games. I have seen an Indian dealer make $25 in 1 30 minute shift (some players gave him $2 and $3 tips per hand--they were dealers from other casinos who played at the Trop)
For example, are the tips spread around like in a restaurant? Many places, the tips are collected by the waiters and divyed amongst the waitstaff, the bus boys, the hosts, and occasionally even the cooks. I would imagine that the chip runners and floor persons in a casino could expect a cut of the dealer tips, too. But hey, what do I know.
Also, know of any places they'd take a dealer for a short time basis, like, say, oh, I don't know, over a summer?
Thanks.
Joe
Dealers usually tip the folks bringin gset ups for the idiots who think a new deck will make them play better.
I once proposed to a card room manager that anyone requesting a set up should pay $2 for it.
I have also heard of card room managers skimming off tips from dealers for their own pockets.
Dealers in AC at the Trop (and possibly casinos) now keep their own tips. This has been going on for a year. Before they shared among themselves only. Before that, they pooled ALL tips including the tips from floor games like blackjack, roulette etc. Of course the floor games people did not like that and put pressure on an unnammed State Senator who had a relative who was a dealer in floor games. He got the tips separated so the poker dealers got less.
Pokers dealers are OK with the keep your own tips and now make money based on their own efficiencies and skills.
I work as a waiter and the other day when some sweet little old lady gave me a piece of candy it made my day. Course she also left me a nice tip, but it's the thought that counts.
Mark
first of all, let me, as a disclaimer, say that I am not superstitious (except when I played baseball). A card room nearby holds about three or four week long tournaments a year. for the past two and a half years, I've noticed that I go into month-long losing runs prior to and including the week of the tournament. it is really odd. looking back at my records, all of my big losing streaks in that time period have coincided with the tournament weeks. At first, I noticed it because I would try to get a stake together to play the side games there, and I couldn't seem to win while doing this. Maybe, i thought, I was pressing too much and getting out of my game. The past couple of times, however, I didn't even know that a tournament series was coming up until midway through my losing streak. This past time, I wasn't even aware that the tournament was going on until it ended. I went to that cardroom, by chance, the day after it ended, and booked a two rack win in a 6-12 game after going 12 sessions without a winner.
Odd? yes. too odd? not likely. snakebit (whatever that means) probably. conclusion? keep an eye on the tournament schedule and go hit the links or mess with the trout (of course, I seem to hit the ball farther after a losing session, so maybe i should wait for a loser before I tee it up). just a fun observation that I noticed.
I once noticed that my results weren't as good during a full moon - crazy huh!
Anybody knows how to find the Orleans Open results on the WEB?
On the Orleans Casino WEB site I can see only the last year results.
Thanks
Go to www.pokerpages.com.
Hi Vince, you don't know me but I've read your posts here before. Someone in my line of work mentioned the name of a Vincent Lepore in New Jersey. This individual does what I do for a living. Any chance this is you?
Chuck,
I don't do anything for a living including playing poker. I am not independently wealthy just live cheaply. I retired from the USAF and live on a yearly pension that Sklansky wins or loses in one poker session. So do not shoot this other poor unfortunate fellow in New Jersey that just happens to share my handle. I'm not him. At least I don't think I am.
Vince.
Thanks for the reply (as well as your work in the Air Force). Keep up the great posts.
Vince, I respect you....just wanted to let you know...
"Vince, I respect you"
Other than "I love you, Dad" from my sons, the above has to be the best thing anyone has ever said to me in my whole life. Thank you Poker Vetran.
Vince.
Ok I am putting together a 4/8 or 5/10 home game, and am going to use chips, Some of the players I know, and I know I can trust, others I know, ok, and am not worried about, others are players I really don't know all that well. Would this lead me to need to buy emblemed chips that can not be reproduced?
Since most of the chips out there can be bought for say 25-40/100 i would hate to think that peopel would buy a few and sneak em into my game since they are the same. How many of y'all have had home games with chips, and do you think this is something that should concern me?
You catch a guy ratholing chips just shoot him.
I'll vouch for you being with me at the time.
:-)
Laugh Thanks for the backup....You are more t han welcome at this home game. I just cant believe how expensive that chips are to get done.....Much more than I had expected. Anyone have any suggestions as to what type to get. they range from some cheaper ones for 20 to 75+ for 50 or 100 stamped....wow.
Kevin
There's at least one company in Nevada (obviously) that sells chips registered only to you. I'd advise paying the premium if you intend to host a serious game. Check with Gamblers Book Club or Conjelco for the source.
Kev,
I'd suggest plastic over clay - the clay chips get nicked up and leave a mess all over the table.
Try "The Poker Chip Co." 800-722-8742.
e-mail - thepokerchipco@worldnet.att.net
they ought to help you out.
Let me know when the games start.
Mike
Thanks for that place, they are pretty good. I am almost done with the table, and am putting the game together, I am thinking by mid-august we will be set to fly.
Kevin
is it in dc? cause we sure could use some serious poker.
don't do it in chicago. dc yay. chicago hiss. dc yay. chicago hiss. see? you should set up a 10-20 or so game in dc.
scott
Scott
chicago is the city, and the game is in my house.
Kevin
2 weeks or so ago, I outlined SOME of the published objections to the paradigm which holds that HIV is responsible for AIDS. This week, owing to the International AIDS Conference being held in South Africa, the topic of AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa in very much in the news.
One statistical comparison aired on PBS this evening was revealing: 1 in 4 women were reported as HIV+ in the region and 1 in 10 men. Could it be simply that more women proportionately have been tested than men -- due to that gender-specific medical condition called pregnancy? Why is it that in Africa more women are infected than men, while in the USA the ratio is 9 men for every one woman?
Another oddity: the official doctrine holds that HIV originated in Africa 70 years ago. If this is the case, then why only beginning in the 1990s did the current alleged epidemic arrive? AIDS "experts" blame migrant workers availing themselves of the services of prostitutes and then infecting wives and girl friends back home. So men from these various nations weren't going to prostitutes prior to this outbreak? Or, if they were, then all these prostitutes remained uninfected until relatively recently? Take a look at the overall mortality rate for the decade prior to 1996 in South Africa and you'll see a gradual reduction. How is one to reconcile this decline, this favorable trend, with a gradual infestation of a supposedly lethal microorganism?
Prof. Duesberg employs a brilliant analogy to account for the "discovery" of HIV. When improved technology becomes available to astronomers, they can detect previously unknown stars. But just because they couldn't see the stars before, that doesn't mean the stars weren't there. So it is with HIV. We are now able to detect in the human body tiny organisms present in minute quantites which, he avers, have been there all along.
Has the HIV in sub-Saharan Africa indeed been there all along, commonly transmitted from mothers to their offspring, and only becoming blatant in the last decade thanks to increasingly widespread testing?
What i can clarify for you is if it originated in the 70's why is it becoming so prevelint in the 90's?
this is what they call the snowball effect...
when you start at the top of the hill with a slowflake and start rolling it, you gather one then two, then three........ it starts off very very slowly, but begins to grow....it took over 8 years for the first cases to begin being reported. The original deaths were blamed on yellow fever among several other diseases. The snowball has gotten so large that one of two things will occur..
1, the scientific community will come up with a cure/vaccine,
2, this will be the ultimate humanity population check that has been in need for about 30 years....and if this isn't the real one will be coming in the from of Ebola or one of it's strains..
this is your happy day messege for the day.
Ebola burns too hot to make for an effective pandemic. Unless it mutates into a more docile form, Ebola is not a threat to the general population. HIV is a threat to a huge part of the population, being transmittable for years before symptoms arise.
Virologists seem most concerned about influenza, actually. It is easily transmittable through the air, and it mutates continuously and jumps between species. The 1918 outbreak killed between 25 and 37 million people, which was a big chunk of the world's population (15%??) The United States was the least affected land, at only 5% of the population lost. Eskimo populations suffered 60% deaths. Cruise ships suffered 7% losses just to cross the Atlantic.
When the next killer influenza bug comes around, you can be sure the infected smokers will be there in the cardrooms, puffing carbon monoxide and coughing influenza into your face. They will dismiss the government reports that find that influenza is bad for your health. They will say, "If you don't want influenza, then why the hell are you playing poker?!"
-Abdul
i think plague kills in 3-4 days. it was rather, as you say, effective.
scott
As you know, bubonic plague is transmitted by fleas carried by rodents, which serve as the reservoir. It is not so easy to transmit person-to-person. Rodents are hardly affected by the bacterium, so the disease does not burn itself out, and in fact it's all around us even now, in the rodent populations. A few people contract the plague each year in the U.S. Because plague is caused by a bacterium, it's not generally considered a huge threat to humanity now, since antibiotics are an effective treatment.
So, your point is well taken, but let's take the viewpoint that diseases like plague which are vector-driven from a stable reservoir do not burn hot.
-Abdul
Are you sure rodents are just carriers? I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that the presence of dead rats was a prelude to plague.
As much as I respect Nicholas Regush (medical journalist for ABC News), his recent book (The Virus Within) does tend to sensationalize the threat from a virus associated with"AIDS" identified as HHV6. This virus is virtually ubiquitous in healthy humans and therefore can be ruled out as the causal agent; nevertheless its impact should not be ignored as it probably plays a larger role as opportunistic infection than was previously acknowledged.
Militaristic metaphors like "attack" and "invade used to portray microbial infections are only helpful to a point. Once writers cross the bridge and resort to indiscriminate anthropomorphism, to ascribing sinister motives and diabolical attributes to microbes, they taint the entire narrative. The Hot Zone was replete with these sorts of journalistic lapses, and greatly exaggerated the threat of Ebola.
Rodent population explosion -> rodent flea population explosion and plague bacterium population explosion and rodent food shortage -> starving rodents -> rodent population crash -> starving rodent fleas -> rodent fleas attack humans -> humans infected with plague bacterium -> plague
Once at that point, the fleas can continue to acquire the plague bacterium through either rodents or humans. Given the choice, rodent fleas much prefer rodents to humans, but they will attack anything if hungry enough.
-Abdul
Influenza was more of a threat in 1918 because people were more vulnerable; diet, pre-natal care, and living conditions in general have improved since then (in developed countries) and doctors are much better at treating the symptoms and therefore staving off life-threatening pneumonia.
A snowball effect in 4 years in South Africa? HIV has been in the USA for two decades and with tons of unprotected sex in the heterosexual population has not reached epidemic proportions outside the risk groups.
I will attempt to address one of your questions with a possible explanation.
Mark wrote: "One statistical comparison aired on PBS this evening was revealing: 1 in 4 women were reported as HIV+ in the region and 1 in 10 men. Could it be simply that more women proportionately have been tested than men -- due to that gender-specific medical condition called pregnancy? Why is it that in Africa more women are infected than men, while in the USA the ratio is 9 men for every one woman?"
To become infected with HIV, you must be exposed to it. Exposure to your external skin is unlikely to lead to a true exposure, as the virus will be unable to penetrate unless it contacts a pre-existing opening (e.g., a cut). Mucous membranes are easily cut, or maybe scratched is a better term, than is regular skin, due to the more fragile and thin nature of this structure. In fact, just regular intercourse can cause tiny scratches in a woman's vagina, or a man's or woman's anus during anal intercourse. So, when engaging in intercourse, it is typically the recipient who is at greater risk of infection, as they are the person most likely to have small cuts exposed to fluids from the other participant. In the U.S., HIV started out as primarily an infection in gay men, and therefore has tended to stay in that population. In Africa, the infection has long been more associated with heterosexual sex. As such, since women get infected more easily than men, it seems to make sense that there are more infected women than men.
Maybe somebody has done some "real" scientific work, and someone on this group can quote them for us. My statements are a combination of facts that I think are correct, plus my interpolations therefrom.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
This is the standard or orthodox account (well-articulated). But it fails to explain why HIV-infection only became an epidemic in this region in the last 5 to 10 years. Unprotected sex and promiscuity in sub-Saharan Africa are hardly recent inceptions.
Nor does it explain why in the USA AIDS has not decimated the heterosexual population, a large percentage of which has not been routinely practicing safe sex either. Witness the high numbers of teen pregancies, and the prevalence of STDs other than AIDS, in the 1980s and 1990s.
Nor does it clarify the alleged difference between age-old "wasting disease" and "AIDS."
Nor does not it explain why Kaposi's sarcoma is seldom seen in African "AIDS" victims yet developed in the majority of homosexuals who frequented the bathhouses and sex clubs and habitually employed nitrate inhalants (known carcinogens) as sexual aphrodisiacs.
Culture - if a guy dies of aids (or anything else) the guys brother is bound to marry his widow. There by infecting his "other" wives. I have heard 25% of people in all of africa have aids.
What a mess. 1/4 of a population wiped out of a whole continent.
Now this is the real tragedy! There are no hard numbers that can be trusted when talking about AIDS cases in Africa. Why? Because the vast majority of suspected carriers do NOT take a blood test!
Most AIDS cases in Africa are diagnosed by determining whether a patient has one or more ARC's, or AIDS Related Complexes. For a number of reasons, not the least of which is political pressure from this country's AIDS lobby, there are conditions on the African ARC list that make no sense at all.
If you've had dysentery for most of the last month, congratulations! You're an AIDS victim! Got malaria?You've got AIDS too!
Of course, dysentery and malaria were major African health problems long before AIDS. Add such common ailments to the list of ARC's, and your list AIDS carriers will also skyrocket.
Don't believe the numbers being bandied about by the professional AIDS lobby or African gov'ts looking for Western handouts. I'm sure AIDS is *some* sort of problem in Africa. But the only reason 25% of Africans may have aids is because 25% of Africa nas either dysentery or malaria.
And because of the "subcutaneous" fear of AIDS in the developed countries, far more financial assistance is likely to arrive if the African health administrators reclassify malaria and dysentery as AIDS.
Dear Mark,
Your post is truly remarkable but is totally devoid of any feeling for the human tradgedy going on right now in Africa. Rounder puts it in rather blunt unfeeling terms, "what a mess" but that comes closer to addressing the real problem than your intellectual endeavor.
The effect of the AIDS epidemic, more critically for now in Africa, is of such enormous proportions that I am amazed how many Americans just don't get it! There are things that this country can do to help slow that epidemic and we all must join together and let our politicians know that we must help!
Vince.
Good grief!!!! Devoid of feeling? I have been studying this controversy for the better part of a decade and, if it's one thing I've learned above all else is that good intentions gone awry are as much to blame as greed and scientific malfeasance. I could rail against the bastards who have taken advantage of the situation (pharmaceutical companies, researchers, health administrators), but that's not going to encourage anyone to hit the books. Healthy scientific inquiry rests on the principle of multiple inference. This means arriving at more than one solution to a conundrum and then investigating each possible scenario without bias. Exactly what DID NOT happen 16 years ago when the announcement of HIV's "culpability" came before publication in a scientific journal or a thorough review by skeptical minds.
"Good grief!!!"
Now that's more of what I was looking for! Get mad! Mark, I apologize to you. I had no right to criticise. To be honest I have just recently been made aware of the extent of the AIDS problem in Africa. N I haven't been living in a coffin somewhere I believe I have just ignored something that I should have taken the time to look at. For that I am ashamed! Sorry!
Vince
You have to realize that health problems the developed countries have largely overcome, owing to reliable sanitation and good hygiene and nutrition, still besiege many many African communities. Thanks to antiseptics, vaccinies, antibiotics, mosquito abatement, and general good health, infectious illnesses are not much of a threat in the USA, Denmark, France, etc. In Africa, there are huge numbers of people suffering from malnutrition and chronic parasitism and these conditions have been debilitating immune systems all along. Many Africans' everyday water supply is riddled with human and animal waste.
Anthony Fauci, one of the most visible and influential champions of the orthodox view wrote a paper in 1982 or 1983 wherein he concluded that dietary protein deficiency was the leading cause of immunosupression worldwide. Common sense should tell us that someone suffering from malnutrition is going to be less able to neutralize a microbial invader.
You can read more about this specific topic at www.duesberg.com., or e-mail me and I'll forward two articles on AIDS in Africa which you will not be able to ignore.
What role did Hilary Kaprowski have in the AIDS situation?
That's not a name I'm familiar with. Could you provide some more details?
Help them? Opps, we just gave out over a billion dollars to Columbia.....to help the government battle the "DRUG WAR." Probably isn't much left over for politically insignificant, poor, sick Africans!
As I travel from place to place, playing in different cardrooms from the East Cast to California, I occasionally notice the same faces. People I see in Foxwoods or Atlantic City I often see in Las Vegas and L.A. It reminds me of the shooting galleries and whore houses in South East Asia, Siagon, Bangkok and Macau during the late 60s and 70s. The faces were the same there too. We seldom spoke, but we knew each other because of a common thread. Bizzare.
Agree the poker world is a small one in deed.
While in the UK recently I found myself heads up in a tournament with a guy I played in a satellite during the WSOP this year.
Seems as though there are hardly over 10,000 regular casino poker players in the world and maybe 3/4 of them in the USA.
Small population in deed.
Any guesses out there maybe 2+2 has some marketing info thay could share with us.
What ever happened to it - I haven't heard a word for months.
Did it go straight to video tape???
I searched on AltaVista and came up with the following site: http://www.pokerworld.com/thebigblind/. It has quite a bit of info. on the movie, which I had not heard of prior to your posting. I'm now very interested. Thanks.
I've talked to an old friend of mine in Chicago, and he can hook you up with some home games if you like.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Cant be much of a friend.
I'm going to New Orleans in Sept. Can someone tell me where the good poker rooms are, preferably near the French Quarter?
Thanks
Harrah's has a new casino that abuts the French Quarter. The poker room has about twenty tables, and seems very well run. They were dealing 1-5 stud, 4-8 holdem, 10-20 holdem, and 6-12 omaha high only. They always seemed to have a table with 1/2 holdem and 1/2 omaha going.
Thanks! I like those half and half games. I'll check it out!
z
i forgot all about it but i see your sponge mind cant be wrung out.
the question was how come they call sub sandwiches subs.
when they first started making them they made a long sandwich packed full of stuff inside a french roll or bread. someone put a toothpick, stuck on top with a black olive without the pit facing forward. looked like a periscope. so it got called a submarine sandwich. the name stuck but the olive went by the wayside. such a shame.
Thanks from the Coelenteron!!! I have a Popeye version but I'm sure you can figure it out not having a Porifera mind!!!
paul
How long did it take you to make that up?
Brett
is there any place reasonably near the strip that rents by the week or month? preferably in a fairly "good" area.
thanks.
Yes there are a number of Budget Suites type places that are located near strip and rent wkly and monthly.Believe 1 bedroom is about 850 mo.approx.There is one on Trop across from Orleans,another behind Stardust.
.
I have organized a meal get together for some friends from rgp and all my 2+2 friends are also very welcome to join us.
Breakfast Gathering (no moans/groans please) Monday July 24 9:30 am Orleans Buffet
**meet in the otherwise empty downstairs Orleans poker room and then head over to buffet. Giving us enough time to talk foolish and still make it upstairs for the TOC noon start.
Diane from Green Bay
Diane,
I plan on being there if I'm still in Vegas.
Vince.
Great-I hope to see you there.
Diane
I'll be there wed afternoon playing in the wed 5pm HE let's have a beer or something.
Mike
Hi Rounder.Glad to see your tipple has been raised from a cuppa to a beer.Theres still some hope for you.Good luck in vegas.If the worst comes to the worst have another beer.
Mike,
Your on!
Vince
As you may recall, a couple of months ago I asked for backers for the Orleans Open and TOC. I am posting who gets what here in order to ensure that everything is out in the open and everyone knows what they're supposed to get if they see my name in the listed winners. I wanted to sell a total of $1500 in 2 events, the $2000 TOC and the $1000 NL HE finale of the Open. I thought I had 5 backers at $100 each, and therefore asked Ray to contribute $1,000. (he had volunteered to buy as much of me as I wished to sell; thanks Ray). It turns out I only have 4 other backers, so I will make up that amount myself. Unless 1 other person wishes to find me in LV and pay me there before the tourney begins, in which case I will be willing to sell one more $100. share.
So, whatever money I win will be divided as follows: $1000 NL HE finale of Orleans Open 10% to Sandeep Johar 10% to Mark Heide 30% to Ray Zee 50% to me
TOC 5% to Randy Refeld 5% to Vince Lepore 5% to me or New Backer 35% to Ray Zee 50% to me
Thanks to all of you, and let's get rich (or as close as we can here).
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg,
I'll be there Wed night for a few days maybe the TOC too. Let me know what hotel your in and we'll have a cuppa OK.
Mike
The last $100. share in my TOC action was sold last night. I ran into M at Foxwoods after the NL HE tourney, and he handed me the cash.
Good luck to us all! Thanks again everybody.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I want to thank you three for putting this forum together. My expectations were to see what it was about and I didn't even know who you three guys were. Although I never met you I feel that I know something about each one of you thru your answers to card and life questions on this forum. Since I've been reading this forum and zinging zee it's been over a year. For me to stay interested in anything for a year is a miracle. The growth of this forum is amazing, the nine forums are active everyday, with interesting stuff. I specifically want to thank Mason for his work that goes unrewarded in alot of ways I'm sure. He works harder on this forum than alot of people realize. To police this forum is a no win situation. The politicians pop their head up at any sign of the first amendment. The problems I see are no more than grains of sand at the beach. Solutions will come with time as they are supposed to.
Keep picking on a grain of sand and you might forget that your at the beach naked!!!!
Thanks againg SM&Z
Paul
Thanks for the nice comments. What's interesting is that when we decided to start this forum we weren't sure that anyone would be interested. It has exceeded all of our expectations, and we feel that most everyone, this means us and all the other posters, benefit.
I would also like to thank SM&Z. I retired about a year ago.(I was forced to take an early retirement)I hadn't played poker in over 20 years. I needed something to do to supplement my income. An Indian casino opened up a card room back in Sept. and the main game was HE. I used a search engine to see if I could learn something about this game. That is how I came to lurk in this forum. From here I bought the books and software etc. I read and studied for about three months. In Dec. I took a shot at the 10-20 game. Lost the first five sessons. I went back to the books and this forum. I read a thousand posts and finally started getting the hang of it (reading the posts was hard for me--I had trouble visualizing the hands etc.) Went back to the casino and started breaking even in the 10-20 game. Then I started winning, then I moved up to 15-30 and 20-40. Thanks to this forum I now am doing something I really enjoy for 12-16 hrs a week and am making a little extra money in my retirement. Thanks again for the new lease on life!!!
All I need now is for you guys to come out with a difinitive book on short-handed play.
"I read a thousand posts"
Have I really made that many posts! Wow!
Vince
In all sincerity I must join in the thanks to the 2+2 crew. This forum means a lot to me. I love the interchange with all the posters. It is a tremendous learning bed. For that I join in thaking our hosts.
Vince.
Vince,
If it weren't for 2+2 I wouldn't have had the good fortune to ever come into contact with you. I know you have your detractors but I think you're one of the best parts of this forum. I never miss one of your posts.
I do have a question for you, though. When I log onto any of the forums my handle and my e-mail address are already filled in. I am assuming that it works that way for everyone. My question is how come your name is mispelled sometimes?
A fan of Vincew, or Vimce, or Vince Leporr or Vincer Leppre.
My favorite, from last year, was "Vunce". The reason his sig changes is because Vince is a ramblin' guy. He's staying with one of his kids in LV right now and using their computer.
Unfortunately, Vince isn't as young as he used to be, and he probably hasn't noticed that he's posting under "Vincew".
Maybe we should all chip in and get him some Ginko.
Brett
Batholemew,
3Bet got it right. Whenever I travel I use different computers (I don't have a laptop) and consequently need to fill my name and e-mail address in quite often. I usually misspell my name on purpose just to see whose paying attention. (rrright!) Ask John Cole, he'll tell you that I be a goood speeeler! Thanks for the compliments about my posts here but I must be honest and tell you that I have gotten much more than I have given here on 2+2. And I mean tyhat in a positive EV way.
Vince.
This reminds me of a story. Several years ago I met someone in the poker room who couldn't wait to thank me. Because of us, he had won tons of money and a bunch of tournaments. He said that he wanted to do something for me and all I had to do was name it. So I said, "How about 10 percent." Without hesitating he replied, "I would like to do something else for you."
.
Thanks also to SM&Z and the Forum posters,
A year ago, I used to be a losing HE player. Now, I have exceeded my winning expectations as a mid-limit player.
Well, how about 10 percent.
Mason I gave Zee the 30% to split among you, just the money off my book has made me a zeellionaire!!
Chuck and others I didn't want to go on a name game I never would of got to the point whatever that was.
paul
Just made final plans for the Open.
Arriving Wed afternoon staying at the Orleans - open ended ticket min stay 2 days.
Leave me a room message if you want to get to gether.
Mike Guzaldo.
I'm going to be in San José, Costa Rica in October. Can anyone recommend places to find poker games?
Thanks, DJ
The big hotel in town it spreading poker I understand.
Find a place called Colt 45- if you are looking for a really good time.
looking for low limit holdem and stud
thanks in advance
Joe
when are you going to cancun? why don't you host poker during next week?
scott
See the thing is, ever since my amazing TS trip, my parents are less than ecstatic about my playing poker. Which then leads to me probably not being able to host for a while. Which sucks, cause I seem to be missing games, ie the one at Krister's house.
Also, whatever happenned to the Ted Jou classic? I realize that he's on the west coast, but if we find somewhere else to hold it, how about a tournament? Or are we super low on players?
Joe
Damn you rockem sockem robots.......
a.
I've heard rumors that once you've allerted the I.R.S. that you play poker, by winning a jackpot, that you will be sent some type of form each year asking you to report any non-jackpot money won from poker. Is this true, or partially true?
-Dan
Post deleted at author's request.
.
I've won a piece of 3 jackpots over the last 6 years with my share being $1800 to $7,000. On each occasion I got the form to submit with my taxes that year and did so (claiming losses against the winnings). I have never received anything else from the IRS with respect to poker or any other winnings.
.
A few weeks ago, I requested information on Shreveport poker. I received an e-mail response that said the Horseshoe had the best games. To make a long story short, I stopped in there on a Friday night, found no poker room, and was informed the room had been closed in January. I was also informed that there were no poker rooms in town. However, CardPlayer still shows a tourney at the Grand (?), but I didn't stick around to check it out. Anyone with further info on Shreveport?
big time northern lights tonite due to solar activity. makes you feel kinda small.
Will go out now and take a look--hope the rain earlier doesn't mean cloud cover now.
One of the greatest night sky experiences of my life was camping out on an empty ballfield one summer long ago way up in Maine. The Perseides (sp.?) meteor showers late that summer were spectacular, with what I think was an average of about one shooting star per minute. No city lights to obscure the view, just a wide expanse of star-studded sky with the greatest fireworks show, all natural. We lay on our backs in the cool air in our sleeping bags just watching and feeling almost like part of the sky.
My aurora borealis has been dull since Lucy in the sky with diamonds took all my money and split. Not to fear it's just like my mind after a while I don't miss it.
Dr. Beaker
I looked in the sky last night and only saw stars. What did I do wrong? I live in Portland Oregon.
They were only reported east of the Mississippi. We didn't get them here cause of cloud cover tho. Oh well, next time there's a ridiculous sun flare, I'll be ready!
Joe
I have a saying; 'Never place limits on infinity'. Compared to a humanity, aurora borealis is merely mechanical.
For many years I worked above the arctic circle. I would put on my arctic gear, go out away from lights and lie down on a snow drift and watch those lights. When they are really going, you can hear them. You have to be way up there and it must be very quite. It gets intense.
Even at twenty plus below, dressed in all that arctic clothing, warm and watching all that color and beauty, with nothing to worry about except a rare polar bear; I would fall asleep.
I´m gonna be in Las Vegas for about one or two weeks from September 25th to octobre.
Does anyone know the poker rates at the Orleans? What´s the qualification for getting the poker rates? I´m probably gonna stay there because of the great tourneys they offer (some might say I want to stay there because they got the most beautiful coctail waitresses in LV, but I´ll be there with my wife, so this can´t be the real reason :-) ).
Should I consider staying in an other hotel? I haven´t been at Vegas for about 2 years and I guess there are plenty of new casinos there.
I mostly play 10/20 (I know, they don´t spread it at the orleans) and my wife plays 4/8 and 5/10. Since the players in LV are way better than in vienna it might be better for me playing 6/12 at the orleans :-)
Regards
M.A.
I don't know what the regular poker rate is at the Orleans, but I'm paying 45/65 during the Orleans Open. The rooms at the Orleans are bigger than any regular room I've ever seen in LV, though I haven't been to that many other casinos (maybe 6). From the perspective of what you get for the cost, the Orleans could easily be the best rooms in town.
For poker, at 10-20 or higher, you can play at the Horseshoe, Mirage, and Bellagio. Orleans does get 10-20 sometimes, I hear. I don't know how high of a game they get, but the Monte Carlo is also quite nice, an attractive poker room and good rooms for the dollar. Maybe the best value on the strip.
How important is it that you can easily go from your hotel to other casinos or sights? The Orleans is next to nothing, well off the strip, and you will need a car or taxi to go anywhere else. Many of the other casinos are an easy walk from other things.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
From the Orleans there is a shuttle to the Gold COast and the Barbary Coast
Does anyone here play regularly at HP? I play there exclusively and sometimes wonder if any other 2 plus 2'ers play there.
no poster named rick has ever been inside hollywood park.
scott
Ok, the chips are on order, the table is almost complete...now we need players. I am putting together a home game for holdem/omaha8. The limits discussed so far have been around the 5/10 range. Please drop me an email letting me know if you are interested as well as the date/times that are best for you.
Kevin Ihlfan@mediaone.net
WILL THE CRACK THAT YOU SMOKE BE PROVIDED IN THE GAMES WITH THE CHIPS AND DIP,THEN YES SAVE ME THE 1 SEAT
Hi, I'm looking for a booklet on gaming legislation, specifically on poker being a game of skill. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Andrea says she wants to learn poker. She says she likes me. Still she refuses to read my books. She says she prefers Hemingway. So I need your help in showing her why David's stuff is preferable to Ernest's. I'll start. 1.It builds strong bones.
Who is Andrea? Why do we care?
Reason to read Sklansky over Hemingway.
2. Sklansky makes me Money.
CV
Why should you care about Andrea. Because I care about Andrea. You guys don't want me worrying about things other than poker do you?
I think David is working on wife number seven. But then, seven IS a lucky number.
Why should read she when she has a good sugar daddy?
Andrea?
Builds strong bones?
Inside Joke, Right?
3)Sklansky books have better resale value(Not counting first editions, or signed copies).
David's stuff is preferable to Ernest's.
69) It will make Andrea's Flipper's Strong!!!!
You are more likely to re-re-re-re-read Sklansky.
Reading Sklansky at a poker table may intimidate your opponents. Reading Hemingway at a poker table may cause your opponents to drool.
Anyone can understand Hemingway.
TOP is a nice bright yellow that can be used as a road flare in an emergency.
David
Hemmingway and Sklansky both write about catching fish (old man and the sea, poor poker players). However in Hemmingway sharks eat the other guys fish, in Sklansky you learn how to be the shark.
Hemmingway was a required reading in High School and College, Sklansky was what we read instead.
Kevin
David K,
You wrote, "Anyone can understand Hemingway."
Actually, at first, few people "understood" Hem. For example, in "Big Two-Hearted River," a man fishes, cleans the dishes, and performs actions slowly and fastidiously. Attention to each detail is perfect. No one knew what to make of this.
Critics showed that Hemingway's depiction of the shell-shocked veteran, ravaged by the terrors of war, renders precisely how someone regains a sense of normalcy, while protecting the self against the world.
Anyone can understand the words Hemingway uses--it's what makes him a great writer.
John
I meant it tongue in cheek. But this:
Actually, at first, few people "understood" Hem. For example, in "Big Two-Hearted River," a man fishes, cleans the dishes, and performs actions slowly and fastidiously. Attention to each detail is perfect. No one knew what to make of this.
sounds very zen. I'm going to have to go back and re-read this myself. :-)
David
hemmingway? i've always compared you to joyce.
so i'll add reason #24: tales of fallen seraphim.
are ye not tired of ardent ways?
scott
David,
Remember Farewell to Arms? We break bones all the time, and when they heal, they're stronger than all the others.
John
tell her i said she can read both. women always (never) do what i say. dont tell her that she will make alot of money after reading your books as she may then run off with some young stud. perhaps you may be lucky if she sticks with the useless fun reading. is she cute.
Can't say as I blame Andrea; reading David is too hard. First you have to read him about three or four times, then you have to read some other books. After that you have to make notes on a pad and write in here to ask questions and then start over and then read it again then ask again and all to make 1 bet an hour if the variance doesn't kill you first no wonder the poor girl wants to read Hemmingway and the men want to read Joyce. Did I reply after reading Ray Zee? sorry. Dave
Reason Number 10 - More pictures and fewer big words.
PS - I think it should be "Why Won't Andrea Read?"
David,
Who is Andrea? How come she is so much smarter than the rest of us and won't read your books? I don't believe it is your books that are the problem. I was in Bellagio's the other day and spied you at the yellow chip game. I was going to come up and say hello but you were involved in a hand. When the hand was over you immediately jumped up and headed for the sports book room. I was running after you but you are dificult to catch when you are so focused. I concluded that you are just to busy a guy to try and talk too. Maybe Andrea feels the same way. Unlike Mason who appears to be in a state of passive morbidity whenever I see him (and he just ignores my hello's by the way) you seem to be in a constant state of thought and in a world populated by David Skalnsky alone. If you truly need help with Andrea I may be available for consultation. Let's see how about $200/hr. Of course it is you not Andrea I will counsel. Andrea from what you have said here is a pretty smart little cookie on her own.
Vince.
Vince:
I'm actually a little hard of hearing. Well that's what I tell Charmaine, but that's another story that I won't get into here. In anycase, I don't mean to ignore you, and I don't remember seeing you since that day we met at the table. (Of course, I don't remember what you look like either.) If you see me again, and I should be in The Bellagio Poker Room the next few days, feel free to stop by and speak. (By the way, if you see the pot going the other way, I'm not responsible for my actions.)
In the book, DONNIE BRASCO, the author wrote that women are attracted to mob guys. Women like bad boys, not academics. A man that is a professional gambler is a bad boy. Trying to get her to read your books is like inviting her up to see you etchings, then actually getting them out and showing them to her.
Women like to lean up against a man with a hardness of muscles, they do not want to follow him to the gym to see how he got them. She already has the hook, all you need to do is walk around like a lion, with a steely look in your eyes.
But, why am I telling such a smart man such a simple thing?
In my humble opinion, being just a mere woman, I present the following response to an obvious lion: Some women like bad boys. Some women like academics. Some find that the combination of the two is quite attractive. One must also consider the meaniing of "bad boy". I, in particular, do not find bad men attractive. Nor would I be content being dragged around by a hook attached to a lion, ANY lion. Let's talk about muscles. I find muscles attractive, however, I have always found cerebral muscle much more attractive than any other kind, particularly when developed. :)
Isn't the answer at the end of the last sentence, bottom of p. 9, HPFAP/7CSFAP-21?
In the spring, the poker tables were still there, but Andrea did not go to them anymore. It had rained for months, and Andrea read David.
"I'm ready," she thought.
"you're not."
"I am."
Summer came and a hot wind from the West dried up the rain that had fallen for months in the springtime.
"I've read David."
"you're not ready."
"I am," she thought.
In the fall, Andrea shut off the light in her hotel room, and the darkness fell behind her. She walked away from the room and felt empty.
"David, I want to read more. And I want a cat. And I want to let my hair grow. And I want a baby. And I want to read Hemingway. And I want to play poker."
David sighed.
I am allergic to cats!
John,
Isn't this the kind of stuff we used to read in the second grade? What were those books called? Was it the Weekly Reader?
Anyway, very clever. I'll stop by next time I'm in Key West.
Regards,
Rick
a.) Sklansky writes with a poetry not often seen outside of the 'manual/textbook' genre.
b.) He is 'Poker's Foremost Theorist'.
Hemingway wishes he had a title that cool.
Is there such a thing?
I've heard that you can have the "Best of It" at times when it comes to Big Progressive Jackpots(as long as the size, no.# of reels & symbols, etc.. all add up). But just because you can have an egde when playing an almost Lotto size jackpot, does that mean you can make a living at playing slots, I mean you'd have to win the darn thing once in a while, Right?
What about slot tournaments? Is there a slot trail, similar to the poker-tournament trail, that professional-slot players follow, earning a living as they go?
Thanks, Randy
It is like saying you are a professional lotto player.
Not hardley a future in it.
There once was a lot of money in slots and poker machines. Virtual reels, slower progressivng jackpots, and a lot of sharpies out there, willing to exploit small edges, has made things tougher.
I have never heard of anyone who made a living at reel slots (mechanical or digital), mostly because even with a progessive jackpot, how do know how big the jackpot needs to be before you have +EV? There are no posted odds of the various winning combinations occurring, so you really can't calculate the needed jackpot size. Of course, just because I haven't heard about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, especially since I've never lived in a town like Vegas where such things would exist, if they exist at all.
However, I have heard of professional video poker players, as well as teams of players. Individual players find some of the rare +EV games without jackpots, or the progressive jackpot games with a high enough jackpot. Then, they play for the long run, which is achievable, since even royals occur once every few months (?) when you play full-time. Slot teams do the same thing, but they take over the entire bank of pooled jackpot machines once the jackpot gets high enough, then they play the bank until one of them hits the jackpot, and move on.
This is all second-hand information, so if I'm wrong, please correct me.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
actually with reel machines its real easy. yu can play a little while and look at the reels and up inside and see the progression. chart it and you have the characters and the #. then its easy as pie to figure out the needed jackpot size to win. with video its a little tougher and with the poker machines its easy. this is as long as they are random. in nevada they were mostly when i played. you got tricked once in a while. those that dont think you could or can make money are missing the best bet in gambling if you like hard crappy work. there is only a small # of big time players but they have made millions each.
One of my friends is a slot pro. He used to play poker for a living but now his slot income dwarfs that by a landslide. Of course, it is a small circle and a lot of work but like he always says, "you can't go on tilt playing slots."
Tell me more, Ray. My wife would love to test the waters of winning on those video poker machines while I grind it out in the poker room. Doy have a reference or an explanation?
Full pay video poker certainly does pay for those visiting Vegas in the form of comps. Quite easy to get value up to $7-800 by playing for a few days in a break-even situation. I don't know about doing it for a cash income though. Dave
Ratso, click on favorite links under directory on the left and then click on "Tom Ski's Video Poker Page."
There seem to be several misconceptions and some outdated information in this thread regarding winning slot play.
There ARE professional slot players and some of them earn serious $.
Chasing "big" progressive jackpots is no longer the main thrust; they tend to get taken down as soon as they reach a +EV.
Looking at the reels to chart the symbols on them used to work when reel machines were mechanical. All modern reel machines, however, are computer controlled and use "virtual reels." The physical reel may have 11 symbols and 11 blanks, but the computer causes them to behave as if there were, for example, 49 stops rather than 22.
On video poker machines, a full time player expects to hit a Royal once a week or so; about every 40k hands, depending on the type of game.
Many newer machines, known to insiders as "banking games" have mini-jackpots AND an easy to spot indicator that they will hit in a short period of time, e.g., Wild Cherry Pie. It is obvious when the Pie display is nearly full, indicating that a short period of play will take down the mini-jackpot, the "skill" comes in learning just how full the pie must be to provide a +EV.
A great deal of the profit for professional slot players comes from promotions (which are sometimes "extremely" lucrative) and from the cash back slot club, e.g., a $5 Double Bonus machine (which will win a tiny amount with perfect play, but let's consider our play to be break-even) $5 * 5 coins * 400 hands/hour * .5% cash back = $50/hour + serious comps. It is possible to play faster, to play higher limit machines, and to get more than .5% cash back. Wanna play this machine on a "triple point" day?
The links to the video poker sites will get you started, if you are interested. Once you begin to learn the ropes, you will quickly spot other winning players, some of whom can be very helpful and others who will not be happy to see competition. It is not particularly difficult to beat slots, but it is very tedious, and to make the big money requires a very large bankroll.
muwati is kinda right here. its no longer an easy winning game. you have to hunt hard for the good spots and know alot more since most of the machines are virtual or electronic reels. there are still some old stuff around. the video poker is still beatable but not for the big bucks of yesteryears. it does take a big bankroll as the fluctuations can be huge. too much work for my blood these days.but there are some easy to break even or win a small amount per hour video games that when the correct strategy is played a novice can win. there are no games an uniformed person can walk up to an beat.
.
It looks like I should have enough cash up to start playing seriously in another month or so, and I was thinking about playing a lot in vicksburg since I have a free place to stay about 30 min down the interstate. can anybody give me some idea how the games are there, what limits are usually spread etc. If its not worth it then ill save the trip and go back to tunica, even though it will cost more. any input would be appreciated.
I stink at math(particularly math word problems), so yesterday i bought Sklansky's "Getting the Best of It." On page 14, the second paragraph from the bottom, he gives you a problem to think about.
"In football it is generally felt that a six-point favorite is a 1-2 shot to win the game.(Gamblers incorrectly call them 2-1 favorites.)In other words, they should win two out of three times. Suppose someone offers to bet you even money that at least one of two six-point favorites that you choose will lose the game outright(Neglecting ties). Who has the best of it? Well, the chances that you will win both games are 2/3 x 2/3 = 4/9. You are a 5-4 underdog!"
Ok, I understand how you get 4/9ths, and how that is changed to the odds 5-4, but that's about it.
(1) He says that you are a 5-4 dog to win BOTH of the two games, but the proposition asks if you'll bet even money that at least ONE of the two favorites will lose outright. I don't understand how the 5-4 odds for winning two games applies to winning the one game out of two proposition?
(2)Who has the "Best of It" here? I sure don't know.
PLEASE HELP ME!
You need to win both games to win the bet. The other guy only needs to win one game to win the bet. Once he wins one game, the outcome of the other doesn't matter. Does this make sense yet? I didn't think it was so difficult.
The guy offering the bet has the best of it, natch.
"Does this make sense yet? I didn't think it was so difficult."
Andy,
Why do you need to be a smart ass? Earl never suggested that the problem was indecipherable to anybody other than himself?
Just a play on words. The key is the "at least".
UKers,
Me, my lady and two of my sibs are heading from Seattle to Cong, Ireland for a week in September. Instead of paying ~$100/each for plane tickets from London to Shannon, we were thinking it might be more economical to split a rental car 4 ways.
We know we can get a car for one week, unlimited miles for $176.00. My questions are (assuming there are ferries from London to Ireland):
1) How long would a trip (one way) take from London to Cong (which is near Cork)?
2) How much would it cost for the ferry?
3) How much is gas in England/Ireland? Any idea how much this trip would cost in gas?
4) Are we crazy for considering this?
Basically, if we can do it for less than $400 RT (rental, petrol, ferries), its a money saving idea. Of course, time is money too.
Partial answers and additional info appreciated. Feel free to post replies or send me personal emails.
KJS
KJS,
It might be more economical (slightly) but it will be, as we say in England, a total pain in the arse. You will have to drive from London to North Wales (250+ miles), get a 10-12 hour ferry and then drive from Dublin which isn't so far. Honestly I'd just pay the $100 each. Although this is partially because the last time I was on a ferry I was so ill I swore never to do it again.
Enjoy your trip,
Andy.
Andy,
I figured I would get a response like yours but thought it was worth asking, just in case someone said it was quick and cheap. We'll be flying for sure. Thanks.
Kevin
Why aren't you flying straight to Ireland. Driving from Shannon or Dublin to Cong is a three hour drive by its self as I have been there. Gas is $3+ a gallon. Also you are required to have car rental insurance $$. If you get a car in London and take the ferry over YOU WILL have to drive the car back to London.
David,
Its actually cheaper for us to fly to London and then to Shannon then straight to Shannon from Seattle. Besides, I think we would all like to spend a couple days in London before going to Ireland. (Expect my "Poker in London/Ireland" post soon.)
We figured it was folly to consider any way but flying to Ireland but thought it worth the effort to make sure. Thanks.
Kevin
on weds. on bravo i like to watch the awful truth with michael moore. he goes around champions the cause for the people. he likes to pick on the big corporations and gets inside and makes them miserable. moore got famous from his movie roger and me. its about detroit and the company. great movie from a low budget.
Hey ray zee,
You get cable in a Montana wilderness hideout?
I've seen the movie "Roger and Me" and his older network show plus I’ve seen him a few times as a guest on “Politically Incorrect”. I don’t like his politics and find him to be a bit smug.
When a city like Flint, Michigan loses jobs as auto factories cut back and close down it makes great copy for the media and good fodder for Michael Moore. The stories are very sad and the corporations and CEO’s seem so heartless. However, the reality of America is that it is a job creation machine. The flexibility of our economy that creates turmoil for some creates opportunity for many more. Job loss is usually concentrated (e.g., when a factory closes) but job growth is generally spread out and diverse and rarely makes the news. People like Moore don’t see this and pander to the lowest common denominator.
That being said, it bothers me that CEO’s of big companies seem to make a fortune when they do well (often as part of a general economic boom) and get a golden parachute when they fail.
Regards,
Rick
the awful truth is that wealth is becoming more and more concentrated, leaving most ( > 1/2, really) more or less just struggling.
if you are comfortable with this , then of course the mechanics of it dont interest you.
brad
sat. dish. at home
m.m. goes after the big bad people that do the worst things to people and society. its fun to watch for me. its not about what you stated. i only saw him on p.i. once and he didnt have his agenda there.
My parents are from Flint. My aunt and uncle still live there and know Michael Moore's folks. Nice people I here. But that's not why I'm writing this. I was perusng the paper a few weeks back and there was a piece about MM. It seems he had to let one of his employees go from his production company. So this fellow followed him around with a videocamera trying to get MM to explain why he was fired. MM took out a restaining order.
2 + 2 = 4
Michael Moore= Hypocrite bastard.
This to me was like seeing Ray Zee's name on a roulette book. But I know Ray will never let us down like that.
i do have a set of lucky numbers i could sell you at a reasonable cost.
Hi All.
I was wondering, what game is the "safest" game to choose to make a living from: Poker or BlackJack?? I both games you can't depend on winning every night. Even if you do everything right, you can't expect to win, either in poker or BJ. But if you should choose between Poker or BJ as a living what whould you choose??
Best, Daniel
In BJ, your edge is readily calculable, so you can always KNOW that you're playing a +EV game. You have no concerns about being cheated, and you really can't fool yourself into thinking that you're playing well if you should go on tilt.
In poker, you can win more on a smaller bankroll, i.e., your edge, if you're really a good player, can be much larger than any card-counting BJ player. But, you can never know with absolute certainty that you're currently playing a winning game. You might be on tilt, you might be playing bad for other reasons, you might not be adjusting correctly to the current game conditions, the opponents might be better than you think and are outplaying you. You need a lot of self-confidence, but never over-confidence.
BJ generally requires a larger bankroll than playing poker for the same hourly earn. That is one of the primary hurdles for the new player, I would guess.
Which one suits you better?
I understand that it's very hard to make a living as a card-counter anymore, as the casinos tend to bar a suspected counter more readily than they used to. However, I really don't follow the field anymore, so hopefully someone like Abdul will speak up here.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg makes some good financial points but I think it's more a matter of personality. In blackjack every decision you make is either right or wrong. There are no gray areas. Dealer has an 7 you have 99 and you're playing dbl after split, dealer stands soft 17, you're counting Wong halves adjusted for aces if the true count is +3 or better you split. Program a robot and he can play blackjack. Compared to BJ poker is fun. It's a strategy, math, guessing game. Did you read the opps correctly, are they giving tells, are they giving false tells, are you giving tells. What does the opp have, what does he think you have, what do you think he thinks you have. As far as I'm concerned if you have a military mind and can folow orders unceasingly hour after hour without feeling creatively stifled then BJ is for you.
If you are an expert Poker player you can go anywhere in the World and find a game. Every city in the US has home games. Fact: It took me a year, but I grew a .05/.25 spread limit game into a 3/6 game and have been working on making new connections around town. I've even found a 10/20 and a Pot Limit game that go's once a week.
If you are an Expert card counter you are forced to play in Casinos.
CV
As someone who has travelled extensively, I have a different view. You can find blackjack in most countries, but not poker, particularly in the East. Poker is sure to exist in some home games, but finding the home games and getting admission to them is nontrivial. For a professional gambler who travels the world, blackjack is a necessary skill, but poker skill usually goes unused.
-Abdul
Blackjack is dead. Oh sure, there are a few who may still be hanging on, but, betting patterns give you away as a counter. The casinos are so paranoid that they bug people who are just winning.
It was after I began to become very good that I read that the only people making money were those selling the systems. This only confirmed what I had come to suspect.
The second time I ever played for real money I got thrown out. Knowledgeable counters will say it was because I was too easy to spot. But, I had just sat down for the first time at a blackjack table. So how could they spot me before I played? Because I had been playing craps, got tired of the dealers touting stupid bets and gave them a lesson on the game. I had marked myself as a knowledgable player and that information followed me from the craps table to the blackjack table. They did not throw me out right away. I sat down and got a new dealer, a new deck and my own pit-bull person. At the time, spreading a new deck was considered death. But I saw blackjacks coming as the deck was not random, aces hang out with tens in a new deck. After a winning while they decided I had to go.
I invented my own counting system designed for the six deck shoe. I called it the Keep It Simple, Stupid count. I was tested and ready to go, black chips here I come. Black chips are the only way to live well, but just give it a try and see how much attention you draw.
Now I see limited hit and run possiblities, things are not going so well at poker, take the easy to use Kiss count over to the MGM for an hour.
"The second time I ever played for real money I got thrown out. Knowledgeable counters will say it was because I was too easy to spot. But, I had just sat down for the first time at a blackjack table. So how could they spot me before I played? Because I had been playing craps, got tired of the dealers touting stupid bets and gave them a lesson on the game. I had marked myself as a knowledgable player and that information followed me from the craps table to the blackjack table."
You are not making it very clear if it was the 2nd time you played BJ "for real money" or the second time you played "for real money" period.
I'm assuming that you have played Blackjack at least once more at that casino, "for real money" i.e. betting higher than red, although even that is not necessary some times. The eye, for whatever reason (winning big, being alerted by the floor crew, another player at the table was reviewed and you were included in the review, etc), made you as a counter when the tapes were reviewed. Then the eye instructed the floor to back you off on sight, the next time.
There's no such thing as an 'expert' craps player; perhaps the bettor who avoids the downright ridiculously negative-EV bets might qualify as not stupid, but that's it. So, no casino crew except the most idiotic crew on earth, would ever back off a player from the Blackjack tables, before he even played, just because he exhibited an 'advanced' knowledge about craps - whatever that means - or because he won at the craps table.
The only other reason might be that you have been backed off elsewhere and the two casinos share a cheaters & counters database. With all the mergers and consolidations going on in the industry, this is now getting to be frequent.
"Blackjack is dead."
The rumors about its death are wildly exaggerated.
You got it wrong. That's ok though, I expected a response such as yours. Blackjack is not totally dead to me. It's in remission. Wanting to avoid getting made as a counter, I have backed off to include several poker games in my tool box. But, day after day of blackjack? Well, read Stuart Perry's LAS VEGAS BLACKJACK DIARY. CHEATING AT BLACKJACK , AND ADVANTAGE PLAY, by Dustin D. Marks is also good for a well rounded understanding of the game. A good job is more rewarding than a steady hassel with no future.
As for craps, you are totally, wonderfully wrong, wrong, wrong. Stay that way. You see, the casino game is almost indentical to the floating game, where a guy could make a steady buck by fading the shooter. Because there can be no expert carps players I do not have a clue what the difference between the two games is, maybe it's bar the 12 or in Reno the 2. All that it takes to be 'expert' is to know your subject inside out. Did you know there are 'expert' bank robbers, talk about a loser gig. The only time I have ever risked my money, gambling, without being expert was poker. Because of the human factor, which makes hard won experience the only winning way.
Back to the second time I played for real money. I had spent many and again, many hours studying counting. Read and reread everything I could find. Bought the best software. Bought my own shoe. Practice and more practice. I got thrown out the second time I played. The first at an Indian casino in Washington State, the second in Reno. At the time, spreading a new deck was thought to be an event from which to run away. I was a head of my time when I immediately saw it as an opprotunity. Later, I read expert advice suggesting that, hey, maybe a new deck wasn't that bad. I seem to remember reading that in a Congelco newsletter.
Cyrus, I realize you are a smart guy, so am I. Your post implies that I am full of bullshit, once again, you are wrong.
HI Everybody.
Is there such a thing, as a Professionel Roulette Player??
Best, Daniel
Maybe, if one can find an unballenced Roulette wheel. I really doubt there are more than a handful. They are probably making a living doing something else, but know how to take advantage of a casino error.
CV
ya, they are called professional losers. That is a pure luck game, no real way to mess with the odds, other than placing bets on 30 numbers and then you are going to win more than you lose, buth when you lose you lise 30. So you woul dhave to win 6 for every 1 you lose.
Kevin
I've seen books on roulette, and they seem to say that you can find biased wheels that are not truly random. However, I've always assumed that while every wheel is biased to some degree, none are so biased that you can overcome the house edge. I would think any wheel that biased would be visually apparent.
I've also heard tell of people who find a dealer who waits too long before shutting off further bets, and that if you practice enough, you can predict with some accuracy what sector of the wheel the ball will fall into. Then, you have to be quick enough to bet the numbers in that sector in just a second or so. Again, sounds theoretically possible, but unlikely in the real world.
Or, I've heard of past-posting (which is cheating). You find a dealer who stares at the wheel too long to read the winning number (that the ball just fell into), and you place a bet on that number before he turns his attention back to the layout. Again, you must be able to see what the number is much better than the dealer, and you must be able to move your hands so quickly that you won't be spotted placing the late bet. Probably hard to do, and will often get you in jail.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I tried this with a bit of success. It does work because the dealers have a rhythm that they get into, and you can predict, to some degree of accuracy, the number of revolutions the ball will make before dropping. You then, based on where on the wheel the ball is released and the speed of the wheel, can predict what sector of the wheel the ball is going to drop into. A few problems, though. 1) each dealer has their own rhythm, and dealer's rhythms change from down to down. after taking a couple of spins without betting on a new dealer, you are left with only two or so spins before the dealer is changed out. 2) the ball dropping in a certain section of the wheel makes it way more likely to fall in that section, but not absolutely. your edge is a lot lower than you think. 3) It is way boring. I think I'd prefer spending a couple of quarters trying to go fishing or play Monopoly than stare at an inane wheel spin round and round. 4)sometimes you cannot tell what the dealer's rhythm is and,thus, cannot place a bet 5) if you miss the release, you cannot predict where the ball is going, and cannot bet. 6) Lots of really good looking girls hang out at the roulette table (only a problem if your wife wonders why you are hanging out there and not placing any bets). 7) there's gotta be more problems that I forgot about
bottom line, I did do this for about fifteen total hours (about 10 sessions) over a few days and won some money. I found that my concentration was shot after about an hour and a half of this and was bored out of my mind. I started to wish that grass grew indoors so I'd have something to watch. -2d
P.S. I tried this after reading Getting the Best of It when I was really gung ho about exploiting every edge. maybe there should be an Opportunity Cost section in that book ;-)
You can find biased wheels, but the big problem is the number of trials it takes to find a bias, coupled with the small opportunity gap to take advantage of it. Remember, most wheels you 'clock' won't have an exploitable bias, so you spend a LONG time looking for an edge. If you find it and bet big, they may close the wheel anyway. And many casinos re-balance their wheels daily.
In the old days biased wheels were more common. But improving technology has made that a real tough road. The bottom line is, why bother? For it to be worthwhile, not only does the game have to be exploitable, but it has to be exploitable for more money than you could make playing another one.
If you use a computer you can get a whopping edge over the house, perhaps as much as 30% or more. You don't need a biased wheel, either. Just physical prediction. But using a computer is a felony, and the casinos are extremely good at finding them. So don't try.
There are stories of biased wheel play but I can't say for sure if they are fact or fiction. It seems rather unlikely that a wheel would get far enough out of whack to overcome the 5.26% house advantage.
Several years ago Laurence Scott spent a great deal of time investigating an intriguing concept for clocking the wheel by eye and published his results, but it doesn't pan out in the real world.
I can say for certain that at least one team made several hundred thousand dollars using a custom built (VERY expensive R&D) computer. The team statistician reported a win rate of 17%. They did not play in Nevada, where use of a computer is a felony. Most of the money was made in Europe. The computer, unfortunately, was confiscated along with a major chunk of cash and several passports containing various names but the same picture, upon the team's return to the US from a trip to the Caribbean. The legal complications convinced the team members to pursue other endeavors.
There have been other computers developed, but of their success I have heard differing stories. Other than that, no. There are no professional Roulette players. There is no betting system capable of overcoming the house advantage. There are no dealers who can spin a certain number or a certain section of the wheel, although there are dealers who actually believe they can do it themselves.
An interesting aside: The intersection of the ball and the rotor can be predicted by a computer because the speed of the rotor and the orbit of the ball both decay at a predictable rate. It doesn't matter who spins the ball, nor how hard they spin it, the ball will fall from the track when it no longer has sufficient speed (more correctly, momentum) to maintain its orbit. That speed is dependent on the weight of the ball and the coefficient of friction; it is independent of initial velocity. It also turns out that by maintaining the wheel, cleaning and oiling the bearings, the casino makes the decay of rotor speed more uniform, thereby making it more predictable.
John,
I've skimmed the above posts and I don't think this is mentioned. There is an out of print book (at least at Amazon - GBC might have it) called the Eudaemonic Pie by Thomas Bass which traces a team of computer geeks and counter-culture types who were able to get a pair of computers into the heal of two team members shoes.
Essentially, one member would track biases in the wheel and set up his computer to predict where the ball was likely to fall off. He would use his toes to tranmit information to the other team member who would place his bets in the most likely quadrents. The transmission was done by toe taps resulting in a signal sent by electromagnetic induction - this is hard to detect by the casino. It wasn't perfect but when working well in took a 37 to 1 shot down to about 28 to 1.
Note that this was down with late seventies microchips and programming code written in machine lanquage!
Regards,
Rick
I have an old friend who claimed to be a pro "everything player". He loved cruises, vegas and european gambling places. He told me that roulette was almost beatable and actually showed a profit if you considered the comps they gave roulette players. He especially loved the women who played the game. That, he said, was a comp in itself. He tells me he made some great scores with both the game and the women. He hates AC because of all the "animals". He prefers a coat and tie to play the game. He tolerates Vegas, but is a Continental man at heart.
So, it depends what you mean when you say Pro player.
rick i have also read that book and although it was copyrighted i believe in 1979, the theories still remain true. there was another book published that allowed you to split the wheel into four sections and enabled you to place three bets covering half the wheel. although you need to have the ball and wheel remain on a constant, it is still suprising how many times in a row this simple technique proves successful. although i end up pouring my money into the tables this would probably prove to be a better investment if i can get myself to sit there long enough
HAWKIN,
This book describes older technology that may seem quaint by today’s standards. The fact is that this is essentially a physics problem and the house allows players (at least back then) to place their bets after the ball and wheel start spinning.
Essentially, after tuning up the program to account for tilt of the wheel, humidity, wear and tear, etc., one team member would turn his computer into play mode and do two toe clicks for a fixed reference point on the wheel as it spun and two toe clicks as the ball passed a fixed point. The computer would predict one of eight likely quadrants. The first team member would signal this using his toes to activate switches that transmitted their position using induction to the other team member who would place bets.
It is interesting to think what could be done with better technology.
Regards,
Rick
You could build such a computer today with a Palm Pilot and about $20 worth of hardware. I suspect I could write the software, build the hardware, and have the hardware connected and running in a couple of months of full-time work.
But why? It's a felony, and the countermeasures are ridiculously simple - don't allow bets after the ball is in motion and you're out of luck.
A more interesting concept would be to use a computer to train you to do it yourself. Take the computer in and use it to profile the wheel. Go home, connect it up to your PC, and run a 'roulette simulator' which knows the various coefficients of drag for the wheel in question. Practice on it until you can manage to show an advantage, and head back into the casino without the computer. If you never use the computer to place bets, I'm not sure if there would be any legality issues in many jurisdictions.
I'm not sure this can be done, but I suspect it can. With the right feedback, the human brain is capable of amazing accuracy. The precision of a golf swing or a tough billiard shot defies reason. I did a little research in this area with roulette, and discovered that with a little practice I could lean to time an interval within a couple hundredths of a second, which amounts to less than an inch of typical ball motion.
I gave up on the whole idea simply because of the effort involved just to research the idea. To even discover if the idea is workable would require prototyping the software on a PC, getting your hands on a wheel, and building a demo system. Then you'd have to figure out the best training procedures. In the end, you might find out that it's not humanly possible. And if it is, you might find that your edge is only a couple of percentage points, with huge variance. And even then, you'd have to spend hundreds of hours and lots of money to build the final system. And if all THAT works, the casinos can just refuse to let you post late bets.
Ratso,
I had an acquaintance that had a similar theory about blackjack in Las Vegas! He made quite a few scores, but then again he may have been telling a fish story or two ;-).
Rick
Professional roulette! Now there's a good one! Ha!- Ha!-Ha!-Ha!... Hah! Might as well listen to Abdul and play professional Baccarrat. Ha!-Ha!-Ha!-Ha!...HaH!
Read the "Eudamic Pie" Best little account of how to win at Roulette that you will find. At one time I loved what is believed to be Pascal's invention, Roulette. Beating the game is theoretically possible. After all you are dealing with a predicatble physical event. Kind of like predicting where a satelite will enter the atmosphere when it runs out of gas and gravity takes it's toll. Again read Eudamic Pie. Well worth the time.
Vince.
I'm going to be in Vegas staying at the Bellagio the first week in November. From what I've read from Vince it would seeem DS would prefer not being bothered by those of us that would just like to introduce ourselves in person. I have no problem with that I'd just like to know ahead of time.
I'd also like to see Mason (I'd like to thank him for helping me win at poker and I have $1.87 for him which represents 10% of my winnings) and I hope Jim Brier is there to thank him for everything as well. I don't want to intrude, I just want to meet you guys.
SammyB
David is approachable if he's walking around. I don't believe he likes to be bothered while playing, unless you're seated next to him.
Mason, IME, doesn't mind "signing autographs" whilst playing, as long as he's clearly not involved in a hand.
Both are courteous, if somewhat, uh, pre-occupied. Don't be hurt if you bump into one of them a few days later and he doesn't remember you.
I'll always talk to one of you guys.
q
Listen everyone, those $1.87s do add up.
David is correct, he will say hi. Last summer I was visiting, and the Bellagio host took me up into the restricted area and introduced me, and David signed all my books. He was very nice, even though he was fully involved in a $100-200 stud game. Thanks again, David.
Dick
at the wsop I went up to the big "D" during one break as he was going down the hall and asked him to sign his book TTOP.he smiled asked me my name and wrote a very nice message.
the only thing now is I`m pissed off cause now i want to keep it in mint condition. In canadian dollars it was very expensive and now it sits here untouched.lol
jg
When I was at the Horseshoe one year, I observed as a fan approached David and introduced himself. David was extremely courteous, so I decided I would try my luck. As I had hoped, David was very courteous to me as well. Not only did he say hello, but when I asked for his autograph and had no paper, he accomodatingly signed my right breast. Unfortunately, I had to shower, and down the drain it went!!!!!
Thank you to all of you who responded to David's question"Why can't Andrea read?" It is so nice to know all of you care so much! :)) I will read David's book. How could I not after all of that??
Andrea,
Reading is good, it will help understand the game. Re re re re re re-read the book to win.
As I am learning.
Kevin
Thank you Kevin. I will.
There's been some talk that it's hard to get Mason's attention. Here's some things you can say that he won't ignore:
Here’s your ten percent…
They’re playing 15-30 Lowball at the Mirage…
Is that Mark Glover standing behind you?
Someone just punched Roy Cooke in the mouth...
Where is Charmaine going with Gary Carson?
I just loaned Abdul $25…
Mr. Malmuth, I’m an attorney. I represent Darryl Phillips…
Have you read the new book by Sklansky and Caro?
Brett
.
Friends,
Just a reminder that I'll be at the Orleans from late tonight through Thursday morning. If you see me, please say hi. I'm the big white guy with 4 or so fossils on the table in front of him. I also will likely have my new big, black box fan for the smoke.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
4 or so fossils on the table in front of him
Why the fossils ?
I see many players with "Good Luck" charmes. Just was wondering the meaning of such things
Puzzled???
MJ
OK, a few years ago, my wife wanted to go to a rock and gem show to look at diamonds. I mostly looked at the mineral samples and fossils. I bought an orthoceras fossil because it looked cool, was pretty cheap, and was the perfect size to make a great card protector. Everyone at the poker room in Oceanside also thought it was pretty neat. So, next time the show came to town, I bought half a dozen fossils and sold them in the cardroom. Then, I started buying and buying (and selling and selling) more and more. In order to increase sales, I always have a bunch out on the table. By the time I moved to CT, I had a bag full of fossils. Unfortunately, people out here don't seem so interested in fossils, and sales are WAY down. But, I still always have 4 or 5 out on display whenever I play.
Thus, FossilMan was born.
Any questions?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
A lady I know in the Los Angeles/Orange County area, with a thick foreign accent, has a 23 year old son who was in the hospital three months ago. Her son still owes the hospital $1000, and she is going to pay the balance he owes in one lump sum.
1)She wants to know if the problem has ended up on his credit report, and she's wondering if this information can be ascertained for free, and if yes--where? And if it is going to cost some $$$, do you know where she can get the info. at a reasonalbe price?
2)She also wants to know; if the incident HAS landed on his credit report, will this usually turn out to be a permanent blemish, or can it be removed?
Thanks for any help, Ted
w
She said that it's hard for people to understand her over the phone. Plus her english comprehension is poor, so she asked me if I would help.
x
it doesnt get on your credit report after only 3 months. call the hospital and ask what they turned in. you can get your own credit report for free. even if its on his report it wont hurt if played off. you just put an expalaination with whomever you are applying with.
.
Actually, whether or not you can get a credit report for free depends on which state you live in. I'm not sure about CA. But even if you have to pay, it's only about $10.
The three crdit reporting agencies are Experian, Equifax, and Trans-union. They should have toll free numbers in the phone book.
Brett
.
I was a Credit Mgr for 15yrs.If they place it with a collection agency,it'll end up on her credit report.She can get a free copy if she has been turned down for credit,if not it'll cost her a nominal fee.When we reviewed peoples credit the most easily dismissed derog. entry is medical. Its no secret what ripoffs our medical system is.All she needs is a coherent story and good credit to balance out the derog.
.
What has David Sklansky ever done to benefit humanity using his giant intellect? Nothing. He sits around all day taking candy from strangers while the rest of the world wallows in its misery. David Sklansky should be doing something to help SOLVE the problems of the world…not create more problems by taking money from hard working people.
David Sklansky should be ashamed of himself and should stop gambling immediately and join the Peace Corps or other such organizations that strive to help mankind.
If the intellectuals of the world won’t help others then who will? David Sklansky get off of your ass and start helping others by making the world a better place for us all. Make all of your ex-wives proud.
I believe this post belongs in either the 'Humanity Concerns' or 'Ranting Lunatics' forum. Please remember this before posting another similar message.
How 'bout this?
Click here for David helping humanity
John,
I remember reading this somewhere. How on earth did you find it at this time of night after knocking heads with the big boys. Did you use Google?
Regards,
Rick
IT'S A(yes)SECRET, BUT I HAVE REVEALED(Google)THE ANSWER SUBLIMINALLY.
John,
I have way worse than normal insomnia tonight so I figure I might bore myself to sleep by writing a post about Google. After all, we have posts about favorite trout streams, favorite movies, favorite guns, favorite books, why not favorite search engines? But if you guys are lucky, the sedatives will kick in before then.
Rick
Who knows if David has or not, but it is interesting that you bring this up. I found the following great food for thought. These are some words of one of America's most original thinkers, as this question pertained to himself:
"But all this is very selfish, I have heard some of my townsmen say. I confess that I have hitherto indulged very little in philanthropic enterprises. I have made some sacrifices to a sense of duty, and among others have sacrificed this pleasure also. There are those who have used all their arts to persuade me to undertake the support of some poor family in the town; and if I had nothing to do,-for the devil finds employment for the idle,-I might try my hand at some such pastime as that. However, when I have thought to indulge myself in this respect, and lay their Heaven under an obligation by maintaining certain poor persons in all respects as comfortably as I maintain myself, and have even ventured so far as to make them the offer, they have one and all unhesitatingly preferred to remain poor. While my townsmen and women are devoted in so many ways to the good of their fellows, I trust that one at least may be spared to other and less humane pursuits. You must have a genius for charity as well as for anything else. As for Doing-good, that is one of the professions which are full. Moreover, I have tried it fairly, and, strange as it may seem, am satisfied that it does not agree with my constitution. Probably I should not consciously and deliberately forsake my particular calling to do the good which society demands of me, to save the universe from annihilation; and I believe that a like but infinitely greater steadfastness elsewhere is all that now preserves it. But I would not stand between any man and his genius; and to him who does this work, which I decline, with his whole heart and soul and life, I would say, Persevere, even if the world call it doing evil, as it is most likely they will."...
"If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life...for fear that I should get some of his good done to me..."
"A man is not a good man to me because he will feed me if I should be starving, or warm me if I should be freezing, or pull me out of a ditch if I should ever fall into one. I can find you a Newfoundland dog that will do as much."...
"I believe that what so saddens the reformer is not his sympathy with his fellows in distress, but, though he be the holiest son of God, is his private ail. Let this be righted, let the spring come to him, the morning rise over his couch, and he will forsake his generous companions without apology."...
"If, then, we would indeed restore mankind by truly Indian, botanic, magnetic, or natural means, let us first be as simple and well as Nature ourselves, dispel the clouds that hang over our brows, and take up a little life into our pores."
Henry David Thoreau, Walden
M,
Remember when Henry goes out to sound Walden Pond: "It is remarkable how long men will believe in the bottomlessness of a pond without taking the trouble to sound it." He goes on to say that it's one-hundred and two feet deep (later 107 when the water rises). He continues:
"This is a remarkable depth for so small an area; yet not one inch of it can be spared by the imagination. What if all ponds were shallow? Would it not react on the minds of men? I am thankful that this pond was made deep and pure for a symbol. While men believe in the infinite some ponds will be thought to be bottomless."
One way to look at Walden is to see it as a struggle between our desire for the infinite and our sense of being confined: Walden="Walled-in."
John
PS.Take the bet; it's not Vince.
Hi John, Interesting comments re. Walden. One of my very favorite books. Will talk with you more about it when I see you. Especially interesting to me is your take on conflict between our desire for infinity vs. being confined (or limited).
obviously you live quite the desperate boring life.I doubt you`ll get much sympathy..
have you thought of taking up neanderthal 101.
jg
and here is how i figured that out.
first, one is a citizen of something. not for something. furthermore, citizen is a political distinction. humanity, if it is anything, is not a political organiztion.
second, concern is a weak emotion. it shows a tepid interest while maintaining harsh seperation. to be defined by concern is ridiculous. concern has no place beyond parlors and cafes. concern robs one of ture human interaction.
third. humanity, such as it is, is in as good a shape as as ever. perhaps better, but i don't think so. in any case, your concerns should lie elsewhere.
fourth. concieving of your fellow man as a accumulation of needs shows horrible condescension towards them. such a disposition is unbecoming such a clearly noble spirit. the mirth springs from the conflict.
fifth. how can you possibly know whether david already spends his time on various helpful endevours that you would wholeheartedly approve of, if only you knew they existed? perhaps he does not publicize his missionary work, so to speak, as being revered by fools is not his highest goal.
sixth. even assuming david does not help humanity in any way that he can comprehend, who would be so presumptuous as to claim to have mastered the web of will and chance and, subsequently, know what truly and in the end benifits all of man?
seventh. (i hope i don't run out of numbers!) you wrote solve in big capital letters. maybe this one is just me. but i find capital letters funny.
eigth. you seem to imply that hard work is a virtue. that is one of the funniest things that i have ever heard. but you go one step farther -- that hard work excuses one from having to "benefit humanity."
ninth. the alliteration in the third sentence (while rest world wallows) sounds funny.
tenth. when have so-called intellectuals ever been more dedicated to helping mankkind than the more common folk? and why should they? they are no more capable, just more aware of futility and conscious of misdirection.
i am sure i missed countless multitudes (perhaps vomiting and perhaps pissing), but i am hungry and have to go.
a farce of fallstafian proportions, i tell you.
i am sure there is some acronym that net savvy people would write here followed by one or more smiley faces. but i, due to my ingnorance and obstinance, will leave it as it stands.
scott
Sorry, not enough space in the title to place a (n/t).
It's a common phase many 1st and 2nd year college students(male only) go through.
irony man.
c.r.a.c.k.i.ng. hisselff up. but iff we were so f**ckin* smart,
then we cxxouxxlxxd crack ourselffszz up 2; in CAPITAL letters, of. orwellian proportions
mike
What are the chances that this is a farcical post?
I vaguely recall that "Concerned Citizen" might have made other possibly farcical posts before, but I don't have time now to look it up. The reference to David making all of his past wives proud seems to support this possibility.
I would put the chances of this being primarily a farcical post at 35%. I would put the chances of this being primarily a serious post at 15%. I would put the chances of this being about half serious and half farcical at 50%. The chances of this post being Vince, based on style and content, are under 1% unless he is slipping. Now if "Concerned Citizen" only had the panache and wit of a Vince Lepore, we might say this could be the inimitable Vince in disguise. Fortunately, greatness is usually unique and distinctive, and we don't have very many Vinces running around this world and playing poker and posting on 2+2. This post is reminiscent of Vince but it does not bear the true hallmarks (besides I would guess he always posts under his own name).
SUMMARY:
Primarily Farcical = 35% Primarily Serious = 15% About Half & Half = 50% Vince = <1%
Give me 75-1 and I'll bet it's Vince.
..because Mr. Lepore is not, uh, the world's best speller. IOW, his posts have a 'tell'. The original post in this thread, idiotic though it is(conceptually, not because it criticizes Sklansky specifically), has no spelling errors that I could find.
Bill,
The post does, though, substitute an elipsis where a dash is called for, and when David Sklanskly is addressed, his name should be set off with a comma. So there's a couple "tells" to look for.
John
Wrong, David! It's not me even at 100-1!
Vince.
To prove it to you I will now as I sit and ponder dissertate on the proposition "Has David sklansky ever did anything for Mankind?"
David "Oz" Sklansky, summa cum cloudy from the University of 2+2 has led a somewhat dubious life since mastering SAT testing. (sound more like me yet David). To prove it is me I will tell a secret only I, you and Mason know. We were all talking together saturday evening at Bellagio's. You said that I was really beautiful and not the fat toad I alluded to being. Mason just nodded in that Mason amused kind of way. Now back to your contibution to mankind. Well since all I know about you is what I read in the tabloids I will give it a short shot. What have you gave mankind. Ray Zee. Tell me where would Zee be if not for you. Probably somewhere in Montana shephearding sheep. What's that you say, That is what he is doing anyway. ya but now he got dough too. You gave us John Feeney now didn't you? That's gotta be woith somethin to someone somewhere sometime. I guess. Hey who's this Andrea chick and what does she think of your manhood, err I mean gift to mankind. And most of all you gave us Mason. Now how could any of us live without Mason. Mason is...well this is about you, David. Actually, it is really about me. You see by you thinking that I wrote that inferior piece of garbage questioning your contibution to mankind you just dropped my self esteem another 30%. And I ain't got much of it left. Besides why would I challenge you to contribute anything to mankind. If you want to spend your great SAT talent sitting at a poker table instead of uncovering genetic or physical phenomena that's yo buisiness. There's plenty of Stephen Hawkings around to do that anyway. Speaking of Hawkings, I believe he once kicked Einstein's ass in a poker game. At least that's what Captain Kirk told me. So you see even the very intelligent play poker, not just intelligent wanna be's like me.
David I gotta go. See you at Bellagio's. Now that we are the best of friends I'ma sure you won't mind me watching while you play. I could sit next to you. You could tell everybody I am your son or uncle. I don't care. Just remeber (notice the speeling for those doubting thomas's) that now that you have met me you no longer need to brown nose Mason. I'll be your friend even if no one else will be.
Vince
And with friends like you . . .
Get over yourself.
Here's a clue to who I am I eat ham and I eat spam
If you think that Sam I am you're all wrong cause I'm not Pam
So now to tell you all the truth I am not Mason Malmooth I am not Vice Lepore I am not John Feeney either
I know David very well (kinda) I know he has a nasty tell if I told him that this was me he would laugh and go hee hee
The rest of you are Mutts and Jeffs you don't know your rights from lefts Ray Zee is not who I am my name is ________ I'm not a sham
Concerned Citizen for Humanity
I'm earnest and not impressed.
May Quentin Tarantino shi*T down the crutch of your irony and spit on your ugly face.
KISS RULZ!!!
n/t
You sound like some lame limp lazy liberal. Wanting someone ELSE to solve the worlds problems. I say let the weak of the world parrish - it will improve the gene pool and make the world a more pleasant place for the productive among us.
Darwin had the right idea.
Obviously.
What will putting all the weak in a church accomplish?
(ducking and running)
Silly me! I thought he was sending them all to France.
Viva!
Porque?
Someone has incorrectly accused me of the original post in this thread. They are wrong I had nothing to do with this.
Vince.
Hi Vince, I don't think any one did, but you can blame me for bringing it up this time. While you were out someone suggested you were Avocado Fats, or rather, that Avocado Fats was really you. I immediately said not.
This time around, I anticipated that someone might think Concerned Citizen was really you (due primarily to the irreverent tone of the post). I took the pre-emptive stance of putting the odds of this being you at <1%. It is interesting that the initial part of my post, and title of the post, dealt with the chances of Concerned Citizen posting about David as a farce, but no one responded to that part unless I missed it; they would rather talk about you, given the choices of talking about one or the other or both.
I hope your trip is going great. Mark
Hey Mark,
Note my PS. I would have put the odds at 0% (is that possible?).
John
John,
Make the odds infinity to 1 against. Plus you can use a big word ;-).
Rick
P.S. Email me. Did you get my insipid phone message at the cookout? I might be back in Rhode Island soon.
John,
Make the odds infinity to 1 against.
Rick
P.S. Email me. Did you get my insipid phone message at the cookout? I might be back in Rhode Island soon.
David Sklansky saved me alot of money. I am part of humanity. He helped me.
I think the peace corp should become more involved in poker, thus, making it easier for David to join.
One thing that David Sklansky obviously should do for humanity is oust you from this forum. But, I am sure he has better things to do with his time than reply to one so banal as you. I have known David for 10 years. It seems to me you should do a little research prior to making ludicrous accusations. In simple terms (I am quite sure you will understand those), GET A LIFE!
Andrea,
I shudder to think what I might say if I were asked to explain what I've done for humanity. I don't understand how anyone can ask this question of another. But, it's often a question we must ask ourselves from time to time. We can only hope that some day we can find some small answer.
Regards,
John
Doing for humanity is not an option. David Sklansky has no choice. Humanity is larger than humans. Humanity is larger than David.
Human intelligence includes David. Humanity seeks to extend, looking to all options. Sending us out to explore in all directions. You are a sad, broken thing if you are not part of humanity.
The original poster, besides getting a life, does not need to worry about David's contribution to humanity. David has a job to do. So do we all.
Hey Andrea,
You are a joke! Tough too.
.
I need a well known sports book to bet with. Is there one that sends you your cashouts at no charge?
Thanx ......BB
Were you in the no. 2 seat Fri. night in the 20-40 game?
Well I'm sitting here with my foot wrapped up; no I didn't shoot myself, but sprained the damn thing Hiking in the desert with my new 270Win Ruger MkII with a Leupold Scope. I can take any North American Mammal from Prairie Dogs to Elk at 400yds with that Rifle and some light African Game also. I sprained my ankle hiking out to the 200-yard target I set up. The Rifle was only Bore sighted, but I put 4 out of 4 shots in a 6" pattern slightly high and to the left from off the back of my pickup. Not because my superior shooting capabilities, but because that Rifle is just so accurate.
Also got a .44 Mag Winchester Model 94 Rifle with Iron sights. That thing is very accurate up to 100yards and will be a good Bush gun for Deer or Varmints.
So no Hand Gun yet but I'm looking at a .44Mag Ruger Super Blackhawk.
Later, CV
Nice shit for shooting critters outdoors. But, I would add a 12-guage Browning for the indoor intruding varmits. Bore-sighted or not, you can't miss.
Must remember to stay clear of Macdonalds when its crowded.
I always told every one that fast food was bad for your health.
.
My preference is a 6 shot pump action shot gun.
I qualified expert in the Corps with an M14 - could shoot the balls off a gnat at 1000 meters. Sniper class.
Me, I happen to like older guns and I stay away from automatic pistols. I know if I have to use a pistol I won't want it jamming go my home guns are revolvers.
for the pistol get the redhawk instead of the blackhawk. but both are heavy and lousy to carry(the purpose of a pistol). s&w 44 mag model 629 is much lighter and just as good. if you like even better carrying weight i use the 629 mountain model, its even more accurate but kicks more. good shooting pal. then put one of those nra stickers on your bumper or something that says only taking your guns out of your cold dead hands and you will find very few tail gaitors or people giving you the finger. or put the one that says honk at me if you have never seen a 44 magnum.
My wife yes.
My dogs maybe.
My guns NEVER.
:-)
Don't even carry a gun. Doesn't make me feel any less of a man.
Andy.
Its not for my ego, it's just fun to have them. I go out in the desert and set up targets and shoot for accuracy. I'm also going to start reloading. Being able to hunt for Deer,Elk, and Birds are sports everyone should be able to do. Most people I know who grew up in a family that hunted for food have more respect for firearms.
The Bullet also equalizes all men and its development may have had something to do with our having a Democratic Society. I still need to study on that subject though.\
CV
Regaring "the bullet equalizes all men" :-
"And the trees are all kept equal by hatchet, axe and saw"
Andy.
Yo Adriaaaaaaaaaaaan................
Riff-Raff. No?
KJS
PS....I'm just havin' fun
"I never shot nobody, don't even carry a gun. I ain't done nothin' wrong, I'm just havin' fun.. Riff Raff, gonna do it for a laugh.."
Riff Raff
"Gimme a bullet to bit on, somethin' to chew. Gimme a bullet to bit on, and I'll make believe, I'll make believe it's you."
Gimme a Bullet
"Wrap yourself around, like a second skin. It's your favorite game, that you can never win. ..She was runnin' in overdrive, a victim of overkill.."
Gone Shootin'
All from 1978's Powerage, a truly all-time great album. Boys musta been in a mood....
Funny... My wife has a Colt Government Model, and as of last night she didn't feel any more like a man either.
You should try laying off the stereotypes. Does buying a new car make you feel 'more like a man'? How about a new set of golf clubs? A sailboat? Tennis racket?
For the majority of people, guns are purchased for three reasons: Hunting, hobby shooting, and self-defense. None of these things have to be 'macho', and owning a gun doesn't have to appeal to the little redneck in you. Of course there are some posturing soldier-of-fortune types around with low self-esteem who get a charge out of owning a big gun. But if they aren't hurting anyone, and it makes their life better, why should you care? I used to feel the same way about guys who wore disco clothes.
The silly "You need a gun to make you feel like a MAN." argument is a disgusting tactic the anti-gun folks use to marginalize pro-gun people so that no one will listen to their arguments. When the NRA argues against Handgun Control, Inc., they do it intellectually. They try to present statistics and constitutional arguments that support gun ownership. When the anti-gun folkds argue against the NRA, they do it by trying to portray gun supporters as a bunch of militant kooks who need guns to feel 'manly'. But when the facts aren't on your side, the best technique it to go after personality.
I grew up with guns. They carry no special mystique, and thus don't give me any sort of emotion whatsoever. I like guns because of the engineering behind them (the same reason many people build and collect model trains), and I like competitive target shooting.
My wife like her gun because she also likes target shooting, and it also gives her a measure of peace when she has to be home alone if I'm travelling. We now have a three-year old daughter, so the gun is much less useful for self-defense, being under lock-and-key (double lock - in a locked case, with a trigger lock. Ammo stored in a separate location, also under lock).
Still, for Christmas this year my wife is getting a membership to a new indoor gun range. She loves to go out and practice. She likes testing her skill with it (just as I like testing my skill when I play pool, or golf, or poker).
I'll bet if you ask the other people in this forum, "What do you do with your gun?" you'll get a very similar answer.
Dan,
I don't want to start this all off again because we've been through it before. I accept your points but my POV is that I am very glad that I live in a country where it is not so easy for anyone who feels like it to go and buy a gun for any reason they like, and I feel safer for that.
I wasn't necessarily saying that everyone in this thread was a "low self-esteem redneck" but I still don't understand the point of many of the above posts.
Andy.
I like my 30-06 instead of the 270. Why get the 44 rife, if you like the 270? In hand guns a 9 mm is a little lighter and I think the autos are more fun to use. Of couse you need that shot gun for birds.
A 44Mag costs about 25cents per round while a 270Win costs 75cents per round. Yes, I plan on reloading but the cost drops from there too.
Since the 44Mag doesn't have a high velocity, I can shoot lead alloy rounds through it. To get the High Velocity needed for long flat shots with the 270 I have to use jacketed bullets. Lead bullets would shear through the rifling at these high velocities. This is especially true with Varmint loads that travel around 3000fps. Jacketed bullets cost around 20cents per bullet while lead bullets cost about 5cents or less if I pour them myself.
I maybe able to get away with shooting a heavy lead alloy slug for deer but if the slugs mushroom out too quickly I'll have to stay with Jacketed bullets for Elk.
About the handgun thing. I just like Revolvers, they are more accurate than pistols, and since I'm already shooting 44Mags I might as well save on the cost of ammo and shoot the same round though my handgun.
Later, CV
How much is the collection at the Hustler for $3-6 & $6-12 hold'em?
Thanks
Remember Fizzies, those tablets that fizzed like Alka Seltzer, but made a drink like carbonated Cool-Aid? Fizzies were pretty good. The fizzing made them well worth a try.
I've been playing for about two years, and feel pretty good about 4-8 and 5-10 holdem. I win more often than I lose, and win more when I win than I lose on the bad days. I'm going to Vegas in a couple of weeks, and am thinking about giving a higher limit a shot.
Any opinions on the Mirage 10-20 versus the Bellagio 8-16 games for a player looking to get his feet wet at the higher limits? How big a jump can I expect in the caliber of players at these games?
Thanks for any responses.
The 8-16 and 10-20 games can be rock gardens,but sometimes they will be rather loose.You will see better players as you move up,but on some occasions the whole table is full of players with very poor playing skills.All and all, I think that you are going to find the Vegas 10-20 a lot tougher then what you play in, in your hometown. Also, The Horseshoe's 10-20 is worth a look at night.
Good Luck
Howard
I have always liked the 8/16 best. It may have something to do with poorer players not wanting to go to 10/20, but 8/16 dosen't sound as bad. The Mirage 6/12 can be a great game also.
Have Fun, CV
you will see much better players than you are used to and some much worse players. when you get in a tight game go find a better one elsewhere. there are many games around vegas in those kind of limits and playing in any bad game is a waste of a valuble asset.
I visited Vegas in February. I found the Bellagio 8-16 players were only a little better on average than 5-10 players at the Taj, but they were a little more aggressive. The 6-12 players at the Mirage were a little weaker. I felt the 10-20 Mirage game was much tougher than the 6-12 and 8-16 games.
Due to increasing pressure from players, the price of THE hot dog has dropped from $3.71 back to its original price of $1. Facinating how people will loose thousands, but piss off at the price of a hot dog. However, I do understand. A place that reallocates your money (i.e from your pocket to theirs) should give you something even as simple as a hot dog. Word is that the hot dogs are even a little spicy so after eating 1 or 2 of those "bad boys", all you people who get hungry on the drive home only have to burp a few times then you can enyoy the hots dogs a 2nd or 3rd time, or at least the flavor of them. BTY, did anyone ever eat the ones sold at the cart near the bus terminal? Are you still alive? can you say ecoli?
Three guys in a hotel call room service and order two large Pizzas. The delivery boy brings them up with a bill for exactly $30.00. Each guy gives him a $10.00 bill, and he leaves. That's fact!
When he hands the $30.00 to the cashier, he is told a mistake was made. The bill was only $25.00, not $30.00. The cashier gives the delivery boy five $1.00 bills and tells him to take it back to the 3 guys who ordered the pizza. That's fact!
On the way back to their room, the delivery boy has a thought. These guys did not give him a tip. He figures that since there is no way to split $5.00 evenly three ways anyhow, he will keep two dollars for himself and give them back three dollars. OK! So far so good!
He knocks on the door and one fellow answers. He explains about a mix up in the bill, and hands the guy the three dollars, and then departs with his two-dollar tip in his pocket. Now the fun begins!
Remember $30-$25=$5 Right?
$5-$3=$2 Right?
So what's the problem?
All is well, right? Not quite.
Answer this: Each of the three guys originally gave $10.00 each. They each got back $1.00 in change. That means they paid $9.00 each, which times three is $27.00. The delivery boy kept $2.00 for a tip. $27.00 plus $2.00 equals $29.00.
Where the heck is the other dollar?
Hey George, this is MY joke/problem except I use a whore house but a pizza works too.
I'll leave it to the math whizzs to figure out.
Mike
It doesn't take a math whiz to figure it out. I'll let others elaborate.
Hey Rounder:
Actually this is MY joke that I got totally flamed for posting on RGP last week in response to a "serious" math question. I'm surprised George is risking the same fate here on 2+2. And it's a hotel/whorehouse/pizza.
:-)
PS- Any chance you we're in the 5-10 games in Aurora last Sunday (7/16)?
Packerfan
Be the flop... See the flop... You're not being the flop, Danny.
I didn't see it on RGP (although I admit that when I go to read RGP it seems there's only about 2 threads each day that I even want to read). If I had seen it I may not have posted it. Flame on!
Nope PF I was not there last Sun.
I've been telling that joke for 30 years.
:-)
the new total for the pizza is now $25 25/3=8.33 ... so each guy paid $8.33
each guy is supposed to get $1.67 back from the 10 they originally paid.
the delivery boy steals the .67 from each guy...leaving the 3 guys with only a dollar back and the delivery boy $2 (cuz .67*3=2)So there u have it...simple huh...the dollar was never missing
...
where's the dollars
Has anyone else notice over the past few weeks that this website is very slow? I have a better than average computer so I don't think it is that. Also I have just noticed it over the past few weeks. Maybe it's because the site is very popular but is there anything that can be done.
I have noticed it and thought it was my T1 connection.
We are aware of the problem. Chuck is looking into some ways to improve it.
Does anyone know the words to the song TURKEY IN THE STRAW.
I think it goes......
something some thignt something turket in the straw, turkey in the hay.
some thing some thing some thing something turkey in the straw, turkey in the straw
a.
There are a few "Turkey in the Straw" songs. Here is one of them...
As I was a-goin' On down the road With a tired team And a heavy load I cracked my whip And the leader sprung I says day-day To the wagon tongue
Turkey in the straw (Whistle) Turkey in the straw (Whistle) Roll 'em up and twist 'em up A high tuck a-haw And hit 'em up a tune called Turkey in the Straw
Went out to milk And I didn't know how I milked the goat Instead of the cow A monkey sittin' On a pile of straw A-winkin' at His mother-in-law
Turkey in the straw (Whistle) Turkey in the straw (Whistle) Roll 'em up and twist 'em up A high tuck a-haw And hit 'em up a tune called Turkey in the Straw
I came to the river And I couldn't get across So I paid five dollars For a big bay hoss Well, he wouldn't go ahead And he wouldn't stand still So he went up and down Like an old saw mill
Turkey in the straw (Whistle) Turkey in the straw (Whistle) Roll 'em up and twist 'em up A high tuck a-haw And hit 'em up a tune called Turkey in the Straw
Did you ever go fishin' On a warm summer day When all the fish Were swimmin' in the bay With their hands in their pockets And their pockets in their pants Did you ever see a fishie Do the Hootchy-Kootchy Dance?
Turkey in the straw (Whistle) Turkey in the straw (Whistle) Roll 'em up and twist 'em up A high tuck a-haw And hit 'em up a tune called Turkey in the Straw
Right F#@*in' on Abdul!!!! Now that is Americana
AlexB,
The search engine www.google.com is the nuts. Just out of curiosity, I copied the song title into the query box and the top hit had the following link. It not only contained the song lyrics, but it played the song for me.
Forget Hotbot, Alta-Vista, Excite and the rest. Google’s search algorithm is so much better, the rest seem like a joke by comparison.
For example, using it I was able to find my Dad’s name on a duty roster of the destroyer he served on in World War II along with the complete history of his ship in the war.
Anyway, try Google. I’d be surprised if you are disappointed.
Regards,
Rick
x
Dunc,
When I saw your post, I thought you were referring to Louie Landale. Anyway, once I figured out it was the song I went to the fantabulastic search engine www.google.com. Sure enough typing in "Louie Louie song lyrics" got me some great hits. The fourth site gave me the following lyrics. Beats me if they are correct. Anyway:
LYRICS TO LOUIE LOUIE
Fine little girl she waits for me,
Me catch the ship for cross the sea
Me sail the ship all alone
Me never think me make it home
Louie, Louie, me gotta go
Louie, Louie, me gotta go
Three nights and days me sail the sea
Me think of girl constantly
On the ship I dream she there
I smell the rose in her hair
Louie, Louie, me gotta go
Louie, Louie, me gotta go
Me see Jamaica moon above
It won't be long, me see my love,
I take her in my arms and then
Me tell her I never leave again
Louie, Louie, me gotta go
Louie, Louie, me gotta go"
Hope this helps!
Regards,
Rick
No one knows the words to "Louie Louie".
Take my advice, forget all about it. Go back, today, mister.
Thanks, Rick. But as Cyrus points out below, how would you ever know? LOL.
Thanks Abdul, Rick, et al.
Scottie told me about a trip to LA in the fall; it is a possibility for me, so maybe we could get a ho-down going on : turkey in the straw with me on the harmonica and scott doing the vocals.
So, anyone wonder where I've been? Well, to satiate your curiosity, I've been partying a lot, getting some girls....but you know where I haven't been? Nudo in das poolo with maniac m, jb, and c-rag.
a.
and you ask why you weren't told? Craig never would have made a good spy. Loose lips sink ships and his is about to be torpedoed
Mark
craig naked. it must have been quite a moment for you. after years of scheming, to finally succeed. congratulations.
i am not sure about craig. but if i were naked with you in a pool and you tried to torpedoe me, the coroner would loose count of the stab wounds. cause there'd be a lot of them.
i still haven't seen your new look. i am bursting with anticipation. do blonds really have more fun? apparently. you did see craig naked after all.
scott
to the torpedo metaphor, but I figured another message to my own message would brand me as a closet homosexual once and for all. Obviously I meant it in the craig's going to get beaten sense. As for whether blondes have more fun, the girls at work seem to like as I've been getting groped more often and there's more slapping of the ass, but by no one too attractive so far. And not too many people have seen it so far, as I've been working a fair amount recently, although I've given my two weeks so You'll have plenty of time to see it shortly.
Moving right along, when are you guys going to turning stone, as I am going to be in that area from August 5-11.
Mark
BTW-Gravely disappointed by craig. Had hoped the rumors weren't true, but what can I say?
you aren't a natural blond. so just a little of the effect might be lost on him.
we were planning to go to turning stone the 16th to 21st or so.
call me sometime.
scott
Remember Sugar Daddies, the hard caramel candy on a stick? Black Cows were just Sugar Daddies with a chocolate coating. They were a simple but tasty improvement on the Sugar Daddy. I never could understand why anyone would get a Sugar Daddy when they could get a Black Cow. Anyway, either one could pull a filling right out of your tooth. At least that's what people said. I never actually had it happen. That sort of thing can really be upsetting though... and so inconvenient. It's not like you can just say, "Oh, I'll get to the dentist next month sometime." Well, unless it's the last day of the month I guess. But both Sugar Daddies and Black Cows were pretty good, weren't they?
Please, no cracks about "Sugar Daddies", you bunch of gamblers, you. This is serious.
How about Chico's Bon Bons? Ever hear of Tru-Ade (grape and orange) non-carbonated sodas.
Flav-R-Straws
Nickel Nips, Wax Teeth, Candy Buttons, Lik a made, Pop rocks, Wagon wheels
the 60s was the era of free love so guess what food i want to mention but i wont. it begins with the letter p and it is not potatoes
'
XX
My parents have been talking about planning a family vacation for next month, and my 17 year old sister picked up the July 7th Card Player magazine, started reading about Soaring Eagle and said "its so pretty, we should go there"
Once the novelty of the lakeside location wears off, will she be bored out of her mind, or are there a reasonable amount of activities to entertain a teenager there? Maybe watersports, arcade, shopping, movies, shows, rollar coasters, bowling alley.... just non-gambling, non-drinking fun.
Thanks, Big $lick
Lakeside location? It's dead center in the middle of Michigan! They have a fountain out front. I saw that Card Player. I could see how if you weren't familiar with the place you could be fooled. I can't imagine a worse place on earth to take a teenager. Unless you went to Frankenmuth. Just kidding. You could probably go almost anywhere along Lake Michigan for a few days and hit the Eagle for a night. But I would not recommend Mt. Pleasant to anyone for a family getaway.
Unless the 'kids' are of drinking age, in which case there are *plenty* of places to go in Mt Pleasant. Mt Pleasant is also the home of Central Michigan University, one of the top party schools in the country.
I oughtta know; I'm married to a 'Chip' myself.
Its not even on the friggin lake? ok... thanks for the input
Big $lick
I am curious as to how many people will not patronize the poker room closest to them? This subject never is discussed. Harrah's, East Chicago is closest to me. But, I travel long distances to play, because I have had many problems in that joint. No. Not barred, just don't like the place. Anyone else with a similar situation. You don't have to name the place.
Nothing wrong with that thinking. If you don't like the nearest place go elsewhere.
If the games are good and it is just a problem with some staff I'd still go there.
I only have one full time poker room within driving distance but have been thinking about how good it is to play. The room and staff are good but the rake is $4 at 5-10a with a $1 jackpot drop. The downside seems to be that the other players are mostly experienced, strong players with some who play virtually every day for several hours and many who play mostly higher limits and play 5-10 if nothing else is open. I find that this is really good competition and am now to the point where some new or weak player comes into the game we all see it right away and almost invariably just strip all their money from them. However, if these players are not there it is really tough to beat these guys. You can't even check raise them often, they just check and say "is someone looking for a check raise?" Not always but when all the tough players are here. I guess people would say to not play but it is excellent practice. Just saying how it is at my home room. Dave
I've boycotted the best local game for 10 wks. now. Players bicker, whine and sometimes unruly. Dealers mouthy, procedures sloppy house poor at managing, yet best game(4-8 with 10% rake,cap at $4 ).Game full of weak players but my attitude affects my play (MY leak). I enjoy travelling out of town to play but can do so only a week or so per year. Small market games seem to be full of annoyances and the older I get, the grumpier I get.
I started playing recently and go to harrah's in east chicago only because I can get in (only 20) but I was wondering what you thought was wrong with it? Since the empress closed down, the games have gotten very good.
well you know, if there was a closer card room than harrahs id go to it, but harrahs's (e chic) is actually the closest to me (about 2 hours away). i too am curious why you didn't like it to the point of boycotting it.
i thought the floor personel at the empress was much more accomodating and MUCH nicer. and i think harrahs has so much business that they aren't interested in doing things to improve relations between customers, since they don't have to.
What I don't like about Harrah's East Chicago? The staff and lack thereof. That poker room has always operated shorthanded. That, within itself, leads to numerous other problems. There are 17 tables in that room. I have seen ten tables up, and one floorperson, doing the list, acting as floor, taking phone calls, and acting a chip runner. That is standard procedure. Sometimes there is just no service, at all. Ever been there when a player needs a rack of chips, and the "bank" is closed? Or, a player needs a rack of chips, and the floor is busy performing multiple tasks. You see that board with the names on it, as you enter the room? I am personally responsible for that board, being put there. They would be using a clipboard to this day, if not for me. Look around the room sometimes. I gaurantee you will not see a floorperson observing the action on the various tables. NEVER. They are too busy performing multiple tasks. Only four of the floorperson staff, knows what they are doing. Dominick, Mike, Wayne, and John (part-time floor, part-time dealer).
Then there is the physical aspect of the room. 17 tables in that small space. Yikes! I hope nobody ever shows-up in there with tuberculosis. We'll all get sick, for sure. You see that blackjack room, next to the poker room? It is larger than the poker room. Yet, Harrah's uses it for blackjack. During the weekdays, there are a minimum of forty players in the poker room by 11:30 a.m. There may be five players in the blackjack room-- or none at all.
Harrah's is operating that room, just like what it is, the only game around. Harrah's is providing a legal venue, in which to play a card game--NOTHING MORE. I won't go into the 10% to max. $5.00 rake, plus $1.00 for "jackpot", in the lower limits. Then, there is the lack of tournaments. They tried them for a while, but I guess the house didn't make money with them. Then, there is the peculiar way the staff will open another game, which kills the game in which you are currently stuck. What's with that?
BTW, that room is making close to half million a month, in rakes and time collections.
JV,
Thanks for the response. I never thought the crowded conditions, floor doing multiple things etc, were odd for a poker room. I just thought it was business as usual. I have plyaed in no more than 9 different poker rooms, and in most the floor doesn't wathc the games.
WHere do you play now? I f anywhere?
I thought the floor personel at harrahs was unhelpful and at times rude, but it is the closest place to play and the games usually are good. I am moving soon and hope the conditions will be better.
Same places I played, before they opened. Atlantic City, Tama (Iowa), and Las Vegas. But now, I also go to Tunica, Soaring Eagles (Mt. Pleasant, Michigan) and Canterbury Pk. (Shakopee(sp), Minnesota. I made it, as far as Hollywood Park poker room (Inglewood,California race track, near the airport), twice in the last year. I have also been in "Showboat", during off-peak hours.
I'm moving to AC next week, and need to arrange for a broadband connection. Anyone in AC have DSL/cable modem? Who is your provider? Are you happy with it?
Thanks Big $lick
Call Comcast (originally Sammons Cable). they have the cable system. Bell controls DSL and ISDN. I stilluse 56K running at 52.
thanks, ratso
thanks, ratso
btw, I dedided against the green monster, and bought a one bedroom at The Plaza (boardwalk & plaza place in lower chelsea)
If you're not familiar with it, its much nicer, but the population of the builing is even OLDER, if you can imagine that. Its a condo not an apartment.
Thanks for all your help, I'll see you at the Trop!!
Big $lick
Plaza is nice; much better than the Green Monster. It is definitely upscale. The condos nex door to the Plaza arenice too. I go to the Montgomery Ave beach which is only a block from the Plaza. Plaza is on Plaza Place and Tallassee ave. You can walk to the Trop in 15 minutes. The Taj is a hike.
Anyone have the full IBeam URL to back door it like the WSOP address???
THX
MJ
Unlikely, since this is a pay-per-view event. In light of that, it also sounds like stealing.
Another theft-enabler (Napster) got shut down today.
I tried to get their 'Pokewin.exe' view to work and register to pay but their tech support was on NO help at all. Just thought I would try another way.
Sorry. I didn't mean to accuse. I tried also. The ppv was a total seven-out.
Post deleted at author's request.
Badger,
I was using Netscape and down loaded the "Correct" plugin as per the tech support, it still didn't work I went back and forth with them for 1 1/2 days then just gave up.
Maybe next time
MJ
Post deleted at author's request.
There is a pretty good and long article in he current Gentlemen's Quarterly about a woman writer who learns to play poker, goes down to the World Poker Open and then onto Vegas for a heads-up match with Wayne Newton. Her poker "guru" is none other than New York's Wendeen, a former Diamond Club regular. I am sure that Ray Zee and some of the veteran players will recognize her.
Anyway, it's an enjoyable article. It's the one with Anna Kournikova on the cover.
Is this the same Wendeen that many suspect is responsible for the closing of the Diamond?
She's one in the same. I think the rumor is hogwash and I know all of the parties involved pretty well. The city guys are pressing the DC on their own. I think the DC is just a victim of its own success.
Conditions approaching those of 1988, the year Yellowstone burned. I spent two weeks fighting that fire, amazing to watch a fire of that magnitude. The process of renewal is well underway in the park, nature at work. Sis homes have burned in the past few days, more threatened. Problem building homes where they do not belong, California style. Flows in rivers getting critically low, prompting clousures with more to follow. I've voluntarily hung up my fly rod until conditions improve. Places like the "MO" which are not affected by high water temps are seeing hugh crowds. Many bow hunters are concerned they'll be locked out of the woods because of high fire danger. Not an encouraging outlook for recreation. Hell's Angels hit town for their annual run (Misssoula). Police using local high school for their staging area, must be 60-70 squad cars. This is a small town 60k. I guess we'll be ready for anything. Seems like overkill, time will tell.
Sounds pretty bad. My Pop got in one last 5-day trip in early July on the Smith River. He said it was the best fishing he has had there in years. In the past, the river has been floatable even in late August.
He lives in Helena, and says the MO continues to fish pretty well. He has also had good success on the Clark Fork in low water conditions. How about Rock Creek?
I didn't know Missoula had 60-70 squad cars. I wonder how my old nemesis officer Dick Lewis is doing. We made that guys life interesting back when I went to high school at Big Sky.
I'll bet there is lots of buzz about the Rick Tabish conviction in the Ted Binion case.
The flow in Rock Creek is 204 csf, almost low enough for F&G to consider a closure. Attorneys for Tabish( new attorney) will file motions seeking new trial. Missoula has 80-member police dept., plus 42 sheriffs deputies. Officers from Illinois, several Utah departments and agencies from Wyoming and Portland Ore. will join forces, sure see lots of squad cars from Utah. The Montana Highway Patrol has additional officers along with an airplane and helicopter. While the FBI and ATF are here they say they will not take part in day to day operations, I've heard that before. The Banditos have a chapter in Missoula and maybe because of the fued between the two clubs law enforcement is prepared for the worst.
i heard there are so many cops that they are even sending for donuts up here in the flathead valley.
My daughter told me last night she went to the police staging area to report a possible crime, five guys harrassing a Hell's Angel. While she was reporting, a load of donuts was being delivered. I wonder if these were the ones from Flathead Co.?
z
your right paul as i spent the last two days swimming in the flathead river.
I used to know a guy from Calispel (sp?) who told me that in his teens he got himself a scuba tank and went diving in Flathead Lake. Coincidentally, I did my certification dive when I was 18 in Saguaro Lake outside Scottsdale AZ. Just my associations to "Flathead" in Montana. We now return you to your regular programing..
Ed, I commend you for putting the long rod down for a while. By doing that, I think we can assume that you're eing proactive in other problem areas. Far too many people just B&M when face with hard times, and then go back to doing what they do every day. They never once realize that their actions might be part of the problem, or, at the very least, allow the problems to persist.
2D, saw photos of two 6+ smallmouths caught in Flathead River. Have no details. How's your season been?
I have been playing a lot at the Taj recently and have been overhearing a lot about the NY poker clubs. I have to travel to NY this weekend and would love to play. Is this possible? I know the Diamond was closed, but is it still? And how about the Mayfair Club? Do I need someone to recommend me or is there someone I can call? Thanks for any and all info you can provide. Thanks. -Dan
From what I have heard, poker is out of the question. Try obeying the law while in New York, while everyone around you is doing the same. You should be able to see the benefits.
Poker is not procreative. Voluntarily washing the sidewalk, and on wednesdays the street, is procreative.
But, why do I have to explain this to you people.
Intimidating Dan vs Dangerous Dan. Same person? I heard the 2 clubs were raided and shut down. Quite a few of the NY regulars were in AC this weekend because of it.
To all my backers, thank you for your support, and my apologies that I was unable to provide you with a return on your investment. I think I played well for you in both events, but ran into some unfortunate luck.
In the NL HE event, I quickly ran the T2,000 starting stack into T6,000. I then had to split two pots of T3,000 each. The first split was expected, as both my opponent and I had AA and got all the money in preflop. The second split was terrible luck, as the money got in preflop and on the flop of Q95, my AQ tying his KQ after the turn and river were both 9. I subsequently lost a pot to An Tran when most of the money went in preflop with my AQ losing to his K9 on a 9 high flop. A couple more bad beats and I was very short-stacked. No bad beat in the final pot, just unfortunate to run into a better hand while so short-stacked that I had to go for it.
In the TOC, I played very well the first day at a tough table. I had Kathy Liebert, Ken Flaton, and John Bonetti to deal with. I took 2 very bad beats from the same guy, once in stud where my AA lost to his KK when I made aces up and he made a flush (and no, he did not start with a 2 flush). He also beat my AA24 in omaha when his KK75 flopped trips with 776 in a heads-up pot. I couldn't make my nut flush draw nor a low. These 2 pots added up to about T11,000, and I finished day 1 with T7200. About 60% of the field had been eliminated.
On day 2, I went out to a fast start, and had moved my stack up to about T50,000. I then ran into a huge rush by Mike Matusow, who put a series of bad beats on me. Then, Johnny D put some beats on me as well. In one pot I raised as the second person to act with AK in HE, all folded to Johnny D in the big blind, who called. He flopped a pair of 3s with his T3o and called my flop and turn bets (both checked the river). Later, in the omaha8 round, Johnny D raised second to act with A78Q and flopped 776 while I held AA23 suited (does this hand sound familiar?). Again I could not make a flush nor a low, and lost a good sized pot. Did I mention that he raised in early position with A78Q? I believe that A was suited, but still, what a bad raise. BTW, I did 3-bet with my AA23 to get it heads-up.
In the end, I finished 68th out of 486. So, while the result is perfectly respectable, it is still highly disappointing. I felt that I administed about T15,000 in bad beats to my opponents, made mistakes that cost me T10,000, and received about T150,000 worth of bad beats. Of course, I also benefitted from many bad plays by my opponents where there was no need for me to put a "bad" beat on them.
Next year I'll have to get people to back me in every avenue, as I did very well in both the satellites and the pot limit ring games. I entered 5 satellites, winning 1 and splitting 1 up the middle. I should have won another, but my opponent caught big hands at the right times heads-up. I'll let Vince elaborate on this satellite, as he sat behind me and watched most of it. In fact, even if I had booked 100% of my own action, I would have come out slightly ahead for the trip, mostly due to good wins in the PL HE and Omaha games. These games were very good every time I played in them, and Ray would have won another million for his vault if he had played.
Maybe next year.
Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Better luck next time in the tourney, Greg. Glad the side games were more profitable. PLHE at tourney time is awesome.
I'll see you up in Foxwoods this fall, when I shake some serious rust off.
NEVER WORRY .YOU and ROUNDER wetrev obviously the
Padraig,
Hope you were way clear of the Concorde crash what a mess huh!
Hey, you message is garbled you hitting the Guinness again :-)
Nice assessment of the situation.The Guinness may be ludicrously expensive in Paris but it gets the job done.Cheers.
Well, thanks for trying, Greg. Mark
Post deleted at author's request.
i told him to blow the money anyway he saw fit as long as he didnt pick up the tab for your drinks.
Ah yes, what lie is worse than the lie that has a kernel of truth at its core.
I did buy keno tickets, 2 of them. I did not use Ray's money. I had received 2 match play coupons when I checked into the Orleans, and made use of them while eating Mexican with Badger, Mike Paulle (the 500 lb. Jerry Garcia), and Chuck Humphrey (4 margaritas).
Badger tried to give me advice for the Omaha hilo portions of the TOC, but I increased my EV by ignoring his incoherent ramblings. I mean, what could this guy know about poker?
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Post deleted at author's request.
thanks Greg for giving me a shot with way the best of it, and ill do it again some time. the only bad thing you did was let vince near you as he is a black cloud and i suspect badger follows him around.
Fossil,
Great job and in time you'll get there that I would bet on!!!
paul
Fossil,
I was glad I finally met you. Thanks for trying. As far as Omaha 8B is concerned, just study Ray Zee's advanced strategies in his hi lo split book. Be careful who you get your advice from, especially if they've been drinking.
Sounds like you had fun. Next year, day 3!!
Was Bonetti as aggressive in limit as he is in no-limit? Did you two have any good hands together?
Ken
Bonetti was not much of a factor at my table. He did not play overly aggressively for even 1 hand, and mostly whined about his bad beats (there were a couple of times he lost to 5-outers, but no worse) and weak starting cards.
He went broke, I believe before anyone else at our table, and never was involved in anything noteworthy. I am actually kind of disappointed it wasn't more interesting.
Also, he almost always blatantly forecasted his intent to fold well before his turn. He would look at his cards, make little comments under his breath, and otherwise make it clear that he was pissed he had been dealt another nothing hand.
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I can remember playing him heads up at a commerce club tournament earlier this year.
It was like sliding down a 50 foot razor blade.
I bad beat him with a black 64o (big bluff) against his red AQ when 4 clubs hit the board I heard about it for a while.
Is this not the greatest piece of music ever written?
*
Did you even consider Mmmm Bop by Hanson? (No, not Dan Hanson.)
..I've always really liked Nicky Hopkins' piano music on The Rolling Stones' songs "Monkey Man" and "Loving Cup".
I also really like the synthesizers on Pink Floyd's song "Shine On You Crazy Diamond(Part X{or does it only go up to Part IX?})" and the lyrics to the Counting Crows song "A Murder Of One". I guess these last two aren't really music, though.
Tell you what, I've been meaning to buy a couple of Motley Crue CDs, so while I'm at the store I'll check out some Mozart. As the bins are alphabetized, they should be right next to each other!
Speaking of the late Nicky Hopkins. Did you know that besides playing with the Stones,he also played on a lot of the Who's records.He was a member of The Jeff Beck Group and he also is the one playing the electric piano solo on The Beatle's Revolution.
Rock On
Howard
Exile on Main Street Rules. I love Let it Loose and Tumbling Dice. I have written before (in my college newspaper days) that if you want to "define" rock and roll for someone in the most succint fashion, simply play Tumbling Dice.
Shit, I didn't know Nicky Hopkins was dead! If all the names I was listening to back then when die, I can feel it I'm next.
Yes it is. If you do not already have it, pick up Karl Bohm's recording of this symphony. He recorded it in the 60's for DG. It's been re-released on the DG Originals Series and is considered one of the best recorded interpretations.
Mah,
Thank's. I've barely cracked my copy of "Classical Music For Dummies" yet but still hope to expand my collection of classical music over the next few years. These classical songs have all those confusing numbers and stuff. Would the Rolling Stones "Satisfaction" have been so popular if it was called "Rolling Stones Classic Rock Quickie #32".
Anyway, here is a link to a clip of this "song" from Amazon. This assumes you have a media player (e.g., Real Player) for your machine.
Link to Clips From Mozart's #35 by Karl Bohm
Here is another complaint about Classical Music. How can some stuff be on sale for about $3 when other copies of the same music cost over $20? I hope this is covered in that "Dummies" book :-).
Regards,
Rick
P.S. BTY, I haven't been able to grab it from Napster yet ;-).
Besides sale prices for whatever reasons, there generally is a difference in quality between a top conductor/orchestra and a lesser production. I recently listened to a CD, "Simply Baroque" featuring Yo-Yo Ma playing cello (composers:Bach and Boccherini) and it was phenomenal. Interpretation and technique count for a lot when it comes to how it sounds to you (think of some artists on the radio who have done much better or much worse remakes of an original hit). Of course, this doesn't just mean you always get what you pay for, but if you see the well-known name of a conductor or a well-known orchestra, you're probably on the right track. When I told a friend of mine, to whom I loaned the "Simply Baroque" CD how it blew me away, he informed me that Yo-Yo Ma is considered the best in the world. Not that he didn't have some great material to play.
M,
In all seriousness, I don't doubt this. My stero is now pretty decent and and I would be willing to invest in a $20 CD of a great work. But I sure would like to sample a clip or two first.
BTW, I got Cambridge Soundworks MicroWorks speakers for my computer from Ebay for less than $100. They were factory seconds directly from HIFI.COM and used to cost several hundred bucks but are discounted now. The sound is tremendous and one of the things that keeps me going at night.
Thanks and say hi to John for me.
Regards.
Rick
I will say hi John for you, Rick. Mark
Rick,
Cost is determined by if the musicians are dead no alive. Stuff by living musicians costs more. Also, music by old composers (Bach, Mozart etc.) played by no name orchestras in Eastern Europe are cheap. Check out some of the Laser Light series. Decent compiled stuff played well by unknown.
Ratso,
That makes sense. "Dead White Males" seem to be out of favor these days ;-).
Rick
Rick,
I could probably write a book, but I'll give some general advice. There's a big difference 90% of time between a recording that cost $3 and one that is $18. I'm sure there are a lot of people that hate classical music because they heard a bad or poorly recorded performance. Most of the time you pay for what you get. Let me put it this way, about 10% of what sells for $6 or less is good. 90% of what sells for $15 is good to great.
Here's a question: Do you think you would like the Rolling Stones "Satisfaction" is another band recorded it better than the original?
I am an avid reader, book collector, and book seller. It has often occurred to me that the majority of my contemporaries are missing out on one of the greatest joys of life by SUBSTITUTING tv-viewing, miniature golf, computer games, etc. etc. for reading. So, in yet another vain attempt to thwart this tendency, I've decided to periodically list some books in the "not to be missed" category on this particular forum.
1. Snow Falling on Cedars. The movie was terrific, the book is even better.
2. Mortal Error: The Shot that Killed JFK. Stunning conclusion. Presentation appears sound.
3. James Joyces' Dubliners. A warm-up before advancing up the steep slope of Ulysses. James Joyce was the greatest writer of English prose in the 20th Century.
4. Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises. You probably had to read this in high school. Worth another visit now that succulent-looking girls with bare midriffs (and other such distractions) have been completely banished from your mind.
5. Gold Seeker: Adventures of a Belgian Argonaut during the Gold Rush Years [by Jean-Nicolas Perlot]. One of the best of all the gold rush narratives.
6. Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea. On the trail of sunken glitter.
7. Kidnapped by Robert Louis Stevenson. Not for kids only.
8. The White Mountains. First of an outstanding sci-fi trilogy by John Christopher with teenaged heroes.
9. The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. The secret of life revealed: it's a grand adventure!
10. Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen. Not for females only.
I started a thread like this a month or so ago, entitled "Most Important Books You've Ever Read".
Check the Archives.
To briefly recap my list(in no particular order):
Alice in Puzzle-Land & The Chess Mysteries of Sherlock Holmes by Raymond Smullyan
The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand
The Universal Baseball Association by Robert Coover
Joe by Larry Brown
There were a couple more on there, but these are the philosophical and conceptual 'meat'.
Your list sounds interesting, but JFK was killed by ol' Lee Harvey all by himself, who for one brief shining moment was the most skilled marksman in history, pulling off a millions to one series of shots.
You can have a conspiracy with only one shooter, the multiple shooter theory was just going to be absolute proof.
Read the novel Libra by Don Dellilo for what is probably the correct story though for some reason he is a fiction writer.
D.
The book I alluded to doesn't really address the conspiracy theory. The author is a ballistics expert who has concluded that the fatal shot to the back of Kennedy's head was accidentally discharged by a secret service agent in the car following directly behind the one carrying JFK. What is also true, he avers, is that JFK would have probably died anyway from the other wounds inflicted by the rifle fired from above.
Hey Mark,
How about two novels by someone who shares your name: Bang the Drum Slowly (great movie, too) and The Southpaw; and, since it's baseball season, any of the following: Eight Men Out, The Boys of Summer, Shoeless Joe (which also made a pretty good movie called Field of Dreams), The Natural, and for anyone who likes statistical analysis, Bill James' Baseball Abstract. Of course, there's plenty more, and don't forget Coover's The Universal Baseball Association of Henry J. Waugh.
Also, a bit off topic, but any baseball fan should enjoy Dave Frishberg's great songs, "Van Lingle Mungo" and "Dodger Blue."
I am reading a book called Achilles in Vietnam. Absoultely amazing, but it requires some knowledge of Homer and the war in Vietnam. Interseting reading by a psychatist named Michael (I think) Shay. Probably out of print, but a must for any health care professional who deals wit post tramatic stress disorder.
I taught the other Mark Harris everything he knew (before I was even born). The movie The Natural is in my top 30 list. See above for top ten.
That would be 'Election'. If you liked 'American Beauty' you'll love this. I just rented it and about died laughing.
How Reese Witherspoon didn't get nominated for Best Actress and Matthew Broderick was never even mentioned as a possible nominee for Best Actor is beyond me. Both performances are far superior to Spacey and Bening in AB. I'd still give the Oscar to Hilary Swank by the thinnest of margins, but Witherspoon is fantastic here. (Yeah, yeah, I KNOW this topic is outdated.. :) )
Rent it.
I liked Election quite a bit more the American Beauty as well.
D.
x
Just noticed Mike S is selling the 1999 TOC tapes for $19.95 he was selling them for $59.95 (IMHO a rip off) and the 2000 for $29.95.
Glad to see the price coming down I may buy both now. I would have bought one last year but I just can't srtand being ripped off.
I heard that this year's final table of NLH was awesome, including a great heads up battle between two relativee unknowns.
Read this guy's books. It will make you happy.
The best are Get Shorty, Split Images, Cat Chaser, Killshot, LaBrava, Maximum Bob, Rum Punch, Out of Sight, Be Cool, Stick, oh hell, they are all great.
If you liked the movies Get Shorty, Jackie Brown, and Out of Sight, Elmore is for you. All screenplays were based on his novels (Jackie Brown came from Rum Punch).
Elmore Leonard at his worst is better than most guys at his best. He writes the best dialogue in the business. It will have you literally smiling or laughing out loud as you read it.
I get almost the same kind of pleasure from James Ellroy, with a twist. Blue Dahlia, L.A. Confidential, etc. (Elmore Leonard, I read somewhere that he is Lou Reed's favorite writer.)
Well, the best flop of my life occurred at 6:05 am on Saturday July 29, 2000: My beautiful wife, Priya gave birth to little Doyle Padmanabhan. Doyle came in to the world at a cute six pounds even.
Those of you who are soon to be dads have got something special to look forward to. Those of you who have "been there, done that" know what I am talking about...it is truly an unforgetable experience.
Oh, BTW, we actually named the fella "Vikram"...somehow, our little guy just didn't look like a "Doyle":)
Now where is my Cigar? ;^)
CV
This is a genuinely terrific reason to spend less time at the office. Use this reason often. Much health and happiness to all of you.
SammyB
skp and SammyB,
Congrats skp! SammyB is right about the office. You never here of someone on their deathbed saying they wished they spent more time there and less time with their family. Good luck and best wishes!
Regards,
Rick
Gene Weingarten, Czar of the Washington Post's Style Invitational contest, and generally super funny guy, is currently terminally ill with Hepatitis C. He fully intends for his last words to be, "I wish I spent more time at the office."
Awesome! You're gonna have a lot of fun.
Congratulations, skp! You booked the ultimate win.
way to go!
maybe doyle can be his middle name...
scott
The good news: Your life just changed for the better. You'll experience emotions that you could not have imagined.
The bad news: The time that you used to spend in the cardroom and on the internet has just vanished. The new demands on your time will require some adjustment.
But don't let the bad news get you down. It's still worth it.
BTW, when my first kid was born, I posted a similar announcement on RGP. I was a constant contributor there, and made some friends at BARGE. I got a lot of cool responses, like the ones you're getting so far (I'll always treasure the kind words e-mailed to me by MIKE CARO!!).
But, I did get flamed by one guy who thought that the forum was inappropriate, and that the "limited bandwidth is too precious". Can you believe that?
So have fun with the kid, and don't plan on carrying a "bankroll" for a while :-)
Bobby Choquette
Las Vegas
for the kind words and advice.
Sid,
I'm sure glad you raised pre-flop. 8:)
I'm going to miss you around the Holiday Inn...not.
Congratulations big guy, my best to you and pryia.
Talk to you soon,
Adam.
Help!
I'm a classical music newbie (see my post below under Mozart's Symphony # 35 in D Major, "Haffner"). Anyway, I don't have much (yet) except for ones that those guys on the classical music stations look down their noses at (e.g., Vivaldi's the "Four Seasons"). But I do want to learn and sample more and would appreciate any help. I sort of want to start with the basics (e.g., the blue blazers and khaki pants of classical music) but an occasional obscure but underrated work would be great.
It would be a fantasitc if you can provide a link to a web site with a clip (such as Amazon). Thanks in advance for any ideas.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. Note to friend John Cole: To find the syntax on how to stick in a link, look at my post under Mozart’s #35 below, use the right mouse click (using MS IE 5) and select View Source. The format will be displayed in the source code using Notepad or your text editor. It helps to keep a copy of the syntax in My Documents. Then again, maybe this doesn’t work on AOL ;-).
I played in an orchestra for seven years. Playing bad music is even worse than listening to it. But playing good music is incredible.
Beethoven's 5th and 9th are, of course, good ones to start with. I also recommend the overtures to any operas by Mozart and the overtures to any ballet by Tchaikovsky. Rossini's good, too. (A true opera fan is someone who can listen to the entire William Tell overture and never once think of the Lone Ranger.)
I like fast pieces, as I still lack the maturity and sophistication to appreciate long slow stuff, especially when I have to play it.
Some of my favorite stuff (you can probably get all of these in mp3 form):
Mazurka from Coppelia March to the Scaffold Bolero (Ravel) Rodeo from An American Ballet (Copeland - the Beef, it's what's for dinner song)
Basically, anything famous is good. If you'd like to learn something about the pieces, I super super recommend "Bach, Beethoven, and the Boys" by David Barber. It's funny, and short.
Mazurka from Coppelia
March to the Scaffold
Bolero (Ravel)
Rodeo from An American Ballet (Copeland - the Beef, it's what's for dinner song)
Oh puke. Get something with some winds in it. Why would you pay to listen to half an orchestra?
I meant to insult Ratso's taste, not my own.
Sorry, Neils I am NOT insulted. You have to be nastier than that. By the way, the Mozart Quintette K5.81 in 4 parts is a piece for Clarinette and strings. It is very good and popular. I happen to like the smaller pieces and chamber music. Full orchestras are great when you have the time, but just listening, I like the small stuff. Also, the Mozart Trio K.498 is for clarinette too.
You would not suggest that Ricktry to absorb something like Mahler's 9th at this stage, would you?
Rick,
In spite of my 1st impression of you (Caro's comment about Dork bacause of the "Chips, Chips"), I now know you are a highly cultured individual. The fact you live in California will not even be held against you.
I like all music that is made/played well. I can even tolerate some Rap, Country Western and (yes) even some Mel Torme. I grew up on Rock (Pink Floyd, Tull, Stones etc.). However, I posess a decent Classical collection which was begun about 15 years ago with the help from a Korean physician with whom I worke. She had subscriptions to all the Orchestra and Ballets in Phila and NY. She gave me a list of Classical music that she thought would be perfect to begin a collection. She was correct. She actually gave me a hand out she had prepared for her Korean club. I would be happy to send you a copy of it if you provide me a mailing address. I also have marked the ones I have accumulated and added a couple that were not available when she gave me the list.
For a quick start, I recomend almost any Beethoven esp Violin Concerto in D major Op.61
Almost any Mozart since his music was for the masses and by musicians standards, rather easy to play and listen to. His Quintette K.581 and Trio K.498 are nice. There is a piece one always hears called Sinfonia Concertante in E flat for violin & viola. Get this first.
And, Haydn concertos (E-flat) Major with Winton Marsalis, Yo-Yo Ma's Op 101 and Cho-Liang's Violin Concerto #1. All 3 of these are on 1 CD, which you can purchase CBS. Try it; you'll like it!
Other stuff like Mahler, Schubert, Barber take a little listening knowledge. I take a tape recorder to the beach in AC and listen. It's great.
ratso (which is not my real name)
Rick, One pet peave of mine (besides not knowing if I spelled "peave" correctly), is when people have lists of things you must read, eat, visit, listen to, etc. Not to take anything away from the other responders, but I think the choice depends completely on you. I don't think you can make someone a classical music fan anymore than yhou can make them a C&W or rap fan. My friends laugh at me because I like so many different genre of music, but, if they would look carefully at my tastes, they would see that I don't have any forms that I love completely. each song or piece that I like has been approved for my personal listening on its own merits. I like some rap, and hate some rap. I like some reggae, but hate some reggae. The same is true with all other formats.
My suggestion is to listen to a wide variety. Listen to your local classical station, or borrow from friends. Find the era or style that you like and delve deeply into that. maybe it's music from the baroque, or the classical periods. Maybe german, british or american. Don't ignore your own personal taste to listen to what the experts tell you. As a superficial aside, I think it's much more impressive for someone to have deep, well grounded knowledge of a single subject than a cursory realization of a wide range of topics. just side step all discussions outside your metre with some condescending comment, and you will fool 95% of the people. the other five percent weren't about to be fooled anyway ;-) just my .02
To All Above,
Thanks so far. I got up late and need to prepare for battle (work as a floorman). I'll be back tonight.
Regards,
Rick
Eine Kleine Nachtmusik by Mozart. Aaron Copelands, Fanfare for the common man and Rodeo.
Rick,
Here's a few I like, but as you begin to listen to more and more stuff, you'll find that you probably like one period or certain styles.
I think my favorite is Sibelius' Violin Concerto with Zino Francesatti. It's probably available on Sony Classics. Although it was recorded in the late fifities or early sixties, it's still the best, and I have four or five versions. Gil Shaman's (performer) version is great, too, though, and he's always good for anything. (I really don't know much about music, but when you listen to different versions over and over, you get a sense of what you prefer.) Also, Jarvi's (conductor) version of Sibelius' Second Symphony is a close second.
Also, Muray Perahia playing any of Mozart's Piano Concertos; Carlos Kleiber's versions of Beethoven's 5 & 7th; John Eliot Gardiner's version of Beethoven's 9th, which is done on period instruments with B's orignal markings; Glenn Gould's version of Bach's Goldberg Variations (Gould hums and sings when he plays, and you can hear it on the recording, but I like it); Charles Dutoit and the Montreal Symphony's version of Ravel's Daphnis and Chloe (it's a great recording for both performance and, especially, sound); Ralph Vaughn Williams' Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis (see if you can find a recording that also includes The Lark Ascending and Fantasia on Greensleeves).
If you want to try something different, George Crumb's Ancient Voices of Children is otherwordly, and Stephen Reich's Drumming is like having your head inside of an MRI machine when you listen to it on headphones.
Anyway, these are just a few I can think of now, and take Ratso's advice about the Mozart.
John
PS. Although it's not classical, Eric Kunzel and the Cleveland Pops have a CD called Roundup. It features music from movie and TV westerns, along with some animal noises, and the theme from The Magnificent Seven provides a good sonic test for your speakers.
That's real nice John, but a bit over many listener's classical heads. I'd start slower. I think Muti does the 5th and 9th best, but I also like Tilson-Thomas' and the London Orchestra for the 9th.
Ratso,
I thought I was going for the the popular stuff--except for Crumb and Reich. I agree with Tilson-Thomas, but the period version blew me away when I heard it, but I like many, many versions of this one.
BTW, saw Ozawa at Boston Common do the Ninth last year; he was sick and did the last two movements only. The BSO's new guy (can't remember his name) did the first two.
Don't know Muti's version, but I'll check it out.
John (my real name)
Just picked up Pablo Sarasate--Obra Completa (only the 3rd CD) for violin and Orchestra (c.1984). I heard Pearlman do some of it at the in Phila on his 3rd encore when he was here some time ago. He said it was "by popular demand" as people in the front row called out "Sarasate!!". (I guess it is better than people hollering out, "Play some Skynard"). It is excellent "Gypsy music" played with real zest. Pearlman knocked them out.
Ratso,
Actually, they would have been yelling "Freebird"!
Did you ever hear about the opera fan who was banned from tossing bouquets in some houses because he once hit someone--perhaps the conductor--in the pit with a bouquet one night? He retaliated with an angry letter, stating exactly how many he had thrown, to whom, where, and giving the approximate distances from the diva where every toss had landed. He thought himself a true marksman.
And some poker players think they've seen nuts.
John
I have been to the Phila Academy of Music in the middle of winter (flu season) when Riccardo Muti turned around to the audience and asked them for quiet. There were some people coughing. That's balls!
John,
I think I remember blowing your ears out with the "Roundup" CD when I had a house back in Newport. Warren "Mr. Rediculous" Graves wasn't the only one who liked to set speakers on fire.
Rick
Rick,
It all comes back to me now--I think. If you like nice melodies, then by all means check out the Ralph Vaughn Williams stuff.
BTW,
Did you know we had a sort of reunion a couple of years ago? Warren dragged in his stereo, and proceeded to pump 800 watts per channel into his speakers from a few NAD amps. He was ranting on about "clean power."
John
John,
What a life we had back then. A guy who didn't even go to school had the biggest, meanest, stereo around and parked it in your dorm suite downstairs from us sailing jocks. Remember how Warren would repeat that one bass note from Led Zeppelin’s first album (I think it was "Dazed and Confused") just to show how his speakers could shake his pants legs?
My favorite Warren moment was the time we were hanging out doing what young college kids did in the seventies and he just can't bear the thought of going in to work that evening so he calls his boss and says "I'm too stupid to come in to work today, so I'm calling in stupid." Everybody was ROTFLOL.
Come to think of it, that story has been told so often I'm not even sure I was even there. But then again, it was the seventies so who knows ;-).
Rick
Check out a CD called "Pachelbel's Greatest Hit". In it, Pachelbel's one and only hit, "Canon", is played ten different ways. It's a coooool way to get your feet wet in Baroque music. Also, check out Joan Kennedy's classical music appreciation CD. It covers the most popular hits of Mozart and Beethoven and Bach and others.
A true favorite especially to the novice. Melodic and sad, just what the Dr. ordered for a Cannon. Makes you cry.
....and don't forget "Chant" by the Benedectine monks of Santo something...
Rick - You didn't say what you liked ... some peoople have recommended huge symphonies, and others have recommended little baroque pieces. Here's my suggestion:
Listen to the radio ! Assuming LA has a PBS station, they play almost all classical, and they always tell you what you have just heard. Then buy what you like.
If you really also want some education, PBS also has " Performance Today," which runs here from 5 to 7 weeknights, and also Peter Schickele's "Schickele Mix" which is I think on Saturday evening about 6. And after you have become familiar with classical music, then you must go back and get some of Peter Schickele's old P.D.Q. Bach albums, which are funny as hell.
For those music fans who never heard of P.D.Q. Bach, he was the youngest and most unknown of JS Bach's sons, and Dr. Schickele, Professor of Musical Pathology at the University of Southern North Dakota at Hoople, first researched his works ... which are unusual to say the least. I will quote only one example from one of Dr. Schickele's lectures: "... After careful analysis of P.D.Q. Bach's dance music, I have concluded that one of his legs was shorter than the other."
Dick
Dick,
There are two good ones I listen to, 105.1 FM and 91.5 FM. It's either that or talk radio (I love Dennnis Prager and Larry Elder on KABC). I guess I'm getting old. Most of the newer music leaves me cold, although the better college rock or adult album alternative (e.g., Indigo Girls, Richard Thompson) doesn't get played or is on a weak station. I like that kind of stuff.
I do tend to like nice melodies, chamber music, Mozart, Vivaldi (sorry music snobs), violin and so on.
Thanks for the help!
Rick
There are alot of classical samplers in the CD bins which I think are alright. I think if you go to a decent classical music store if the people there are good they could play some things for you, and direct you to things you might like.
If you like violin concertos, some of the ones I like were Tchaikovsky's in Dmaj, Rondo Capriciso (sp!), and Mendelson's.
I liked Beethoven's 5th piano concerto, and his Piano Sonatas (though I especially don't like the way van Cliburn plays the Sonatas).
If you are interested in classical guitar music, I like the way J. Williams plays Bach, though alot of people don't like the way he plays alot of the more modern pieces (too cold). I like the way J. Bream plays alot (Romantic Guitar is a very good CD, and there is a CD where he does pieces by Granados, and Albeniz which is very good). I think M. Barraeco is quite good , and is David Russel (I like his recordings of Barrios ).
Ill try and think some more.
I am starting to use Napster to check out a few titles that sound promising, including some mentioned above. I already have a list of tiles I will probably end up getting (yes, CD sounds a lot better than MP3 and the packaging is better).
Of course, Amazon allows one to listen to clips but they are lo fidelity. Still, it is a marvel when you think about it.
Rick
Rick,
Amazon.com is selling the Hans Zender edition for 83.57. It includes 14 CDs. It covers a wide range of orchestral music including the old--Mozart and Beethoven--to the avant-guard--Boulez, Messiaen, and Zender himself. You can buy each individual CD for 6.62 from Amazon. This is a special edition of live radio broadcasts from the 70's and 80's. I have purchased some of them and highly recommend them.
It sucked - BIG TIME.
It was a liberal attempt to point out how badly people were addicted to gambling, the no hopers playing slots and how the unions have made LV a decent place to live and work.
BOO, except for the dealer interviews (about 10 seconds) I know both of the dealers. It was a waste of my time. The ex-mayor is a fox but that's it.
I was just wondering how everyone deals with the fact that they're making money at the tables as a direct result of someone else's misfortune.
The "He would have lost it anyway argument" doesn't apply, as your presence unquestionably increases the rate at which some players dribble away their money. Also, some players who may be small winners when you're not there become losers when you're in the game. (Like the weak tight teens at Turning Stone.)
Thoughts?
I think it is a sin to let a sucker keep his money.
I have no conscience about winning money from anyone.
I actually look for suckers to play with - if they are to stupid to keep it - well then it is mine.
BTW I am a Darwinist and believe in the survival of the strongest theory.
I could not agree more. If a stranger(fish/sucker) sits at the table he has made a decision to play cards and that is that.
Poker is about winning money from other people, that's the way the game is scored. It may be a cold way of looking at it but it's the truth.
Best of it !!
MJ
The way that I look at it is this, those people didn't sit down with dreams of playing cards and walking away with what they walked in with...bs. They walked in with the dream of taking all of my money and going home. So in the same way I walked in with the idea of taking his. It is part of the game to win/lose money. Always remember for there to be a poker game there must be a loser.
KEvin
Actually a lot of guys are there to "HAVE FUN" don't you just love that saying I get pissed at my wife who says as long as you have fun - I tell her I an mot playing to have fun - if I want to have funj I'll play golf.
i hope you die a wealthy man.
scott
I will die wealthy - but I hope not to soon.
i just meant to highlight one of the problems with having money as a primary goal.
scott
i would rather be rich and happy than ... er, what was the question?
I just want to live like one.
Happiness is over rated.
:-)
If you're looking for longitevity, I suggest you lay off the Chicago cheesesteaks. We never did resolve whether Rounder's name comes from a movie or his physical appearance. People say you are what you eat. Has anyone noticed that round people look like what they eat? Maybe if Rounder stayed away from the chocolate bon-bons and the cheese balls and the bacon cheese balls and the bacon and cheese ball burgers he would live longer and die wealthier. Personally, I wouldn't be that happy eating like a rabbit, but evidently that's not an issue.
In one of the above posts Rounder contracts Darwinism to "The strong survive, the weak perish". This is actually a widely held, but nonetheless eroneous concept of darwin's theories.
If put in two sentences Darwinism is not a result-oriented theory stating how and why the strong overcome the weak, but the observation that through coincidence genetic changes within animal species occur that will result in adaptations to their natural habitat. This does not mean "strong beats weak", but rather that coincidence rather than divine intervention is the architect of genetic modification.
Spielmacher
Yeah maybe but youknow what I meant. Right!
Yes Rounder, I understood what you meant, but that's not the point. I argue that if you call yourself a Darwinist, you'd better learn what the definition actually does and does not cover.
I remember a Science class in law school where the professor made the exact point that I am making to you. Darwinism is often wrongly stated to be a "The strong beat the weak, and that's the way nature meant it to be"-theory. It is not, and at that I'm not even sure my own definition two posts above will stand up to textbook scrutiny.
I agree it is a point of minor importance on a Poker forum, but then this is the Different Topics section.
Regards, Spielmacher.
which means i disagree with rounder. wow. that never happens.
scott
Maybe those folks whose fly rods are collecting dust in Montana should consider a trip to Washington for some fishing. I spent the weekend at a beautiful little lake in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest, just South of the Mt. Rainier Park, near White Pass Ski Area. Small lake with 4-20 inch brookies, and some medium size rainbow. They were hitting on spinners (Green Drakes worked best for me), caddis, and numerous mayfly patterns. Good luck trolling with Hare's Ear in floattubes and our canoe as well. I saw a maximum of 12 folks on the lake at one time, all using flies. Plenty of room for everyone. Even got a nice camping spot at midnight on Friday and moved to a better one Saturday morning. A great way to spend a sunny Pac NW weekend.
KJS
whats it called. do they have a dirt airstrip within walking distance i can pop in.
only bad thing i see is 12 people. thats alot for montana standards.
when you get a sunny week in western washington it means the volcano is going to blow again.
Leech Lake.
12 people is, unfortunately, not that much for these parts. Can still find the secluded spots though.
KJS
i guess what i meant was whats it called around there so i can find it on the map.
Sounds like a good trip. I'm gearing up for more lake fishing after a 10 yr hiatus. fished Georgwtown and the Warm Springs ponds. Considering a trip to Hebgon Lake for gulpers.
fagettabout the gulpers at hebgen, waste of time for mostly smaller browns. do the blackfoot reservation. i always catch many trout at least 5 lbs or more. or close by your home you can have average fishing in browns lake on the way east.
I enjoy Hebgen, like wadeing shoreline and stalking. Slow and boring for most, fish 16-18 avg. Have wanted to fish Blackfoot Res.,never have. Hard to leave all choices I had in the Yellowstone area. Cliff , Wade, Henrey's, and Island Park, all good waters for big fish. Wade produces some large browns for those willing to tube from midnight to dawn(not me). Tried to fish Browns a few times, blown out. Did fish Harpers, one old brood stock F&G plants, 29" and 9-10 lbs. Impressive to see it jump at eye level as it took the black bunny leach. Can't really count a fish that spent most of its life in cement pond. Did make a quick trip to fish Madison and Henrey's Fork. Rainbows seem to be making comeback in upper river. Henrey's Fork found 10 good fish on top stuck 2 landed one, 21" maybe 4 lb. I quit for the day even though I had three hrs daylight left. I apply a different standard to the Fork. They did build a huge lodge on the banks, ugly. I did have breakfast there, sitting at a window looking at the exact spot I caught my largest stream bred trout.
Now this is totally subjective and changes from hour to hour, and I am mostly ignorant when it comes to foreign or Hollywood films from the Golden Age (I've never seen Citizen Kane in its entirety, nor The Maltese Falcon).
1. Last of the Mohicans 2. The Year of Living Dangerously 2. Before Sunrise 3. Amadeus 4. A & E's Pride and Prejudice 5. Babe 6. The Cider House Rules 7. Schindler's List 8. The Matrix 9. Chariots of Fire 10. Excalibur 11. Clueless 12. Romeo and Juliet (Zef, 1968) 13. Aliens 14. The Unbearable Lightness of Being 15. Beyond Rangoon 16. Henry V (Branaugh) 17. L.A. Confidential 18. Four Weddings and a Funeral 19. It's a Wonderful Life 20. The Sting
Favorite actresses; Madeline Stowe (in spite of Bad Girls), Julie Delpy, Helena Bonham-Carter, Julie Christie Favorites actors: Kevin Spacey, Jimmy Stewart
Worst Movie of all Time: The Hotel New Hampshire
1)Shawshank Redemption 2)American Beauty 3) Forrest Gump 4) Casablanca 5) High Noon 6)Thomas Crown Affair (starring Pierce Brosnan) 7) Enter the Dragon 8)Sound of Music 9)The Hustler 10)Gandhi
"American Beauty"?!?
Please tell us you made a mistake and you thought this was The 10 Worst Movies list...
My six faves(no particular order):
Apocalypse Now
Planes, Trains & Automobiles
Animal House
Goodfellas
Boys Don't Cry
Election
Six worst(DEFINITELY in order)
Natural Born Killers
Eyes Wide Shut
Bringing Out The Dead
Jerry Maguire
Born On The Fourth Of July
Magnolia(except for the scenes with Tom Cruise{seriously})
Two best performances of the last thirty years:
Robert De Niro - Taxi Driver
Hilary Swank - Boys Don't Cry
Three best performances by the male & female leads:
Matthew Broderick & Reese Witherspoon - Election
Jack Nicholson & Louise Fletcher - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
Timothy Hutton & Mary Tyler Moore - Ordinary People
Most overrated movie that's still pretty good:
American Beauty
Most underrated movie that desperately needed an editor:
Kids
Two foreign films to look for:
Christiane F. (try to find the subtitled, 130 min version)
The City Of Lost Children
American film to look for:
Another Day In Paradise
Director to trust(so far):
Neil Labute
Director to strongly suspect(after a strong start):
Abel Ferrara
Actor to trust(so far):
Nicky Katt
Actor to strongly suspect(after a strong start):
Vincent D'Onofrio
In April 2001 Hilary Swank needs to say:
"...and the Oscar goes to, Forest Whitaker for Ghost Dog, The Way Of The Samarui!"
.
.
1. Godfather 2. 12 Angry Men 3. Ben Hur 4. Double Indemnity 5. The Caine Mutiny 6. The Thing (from outer space) 7. Ghostbusters 8. Chinatown 9. Gone with the Wind 10. The Outlaw Josy Wales
I made my movie list a while ago, and put it up on the WWW for anyone interested:
http://www.users.uswest.net/~kscullin/movielist.htm
KJS
KJS,
"Gobble,gobble, gobble. And there he is right up on the wall."
One of my favorite all-time movie lines.
John
Chariots of Fire ? Romeo and Juliet ? Schindler's List ? Babe, for christ's sakes??
- Your sugar indicators are critical. Stay away from the junk food.
Romeo and Juliet has plenty of flaws (so do reallife people come to think of it) but the sword fight between Tybalt and Romeo in the dusty square is fine, poetry by ol' Bill ain't half bad (Mercutio gets the best lines), Juliet lights up the screen, and, yes, I enjoy the notion that once upon a time immature silly brave noble young people allowed themselves to fall desperately in love.These days, it just ain't the cool thing to do.
What's wrong with Chariots of Fire? Too staid for you? People taking themselves and their principles too seriously?
Schindler's List sugar-coated? E.T. yes, Close Encounters yes. Sentimentalism almost sneaks through in the last scenes, but I think it's just the authentic inherent awkwardness being portrayed; the world can't easily accommodate extreme feats of goodness.
As for Babe, so you don't like it when the nice guys DON'T finish last?
x
Nobody even mentioned Doctor Zhivago ? How old are you all? And Gone With The Wind is a serious omission as well.
My sleeper recommendation: For anyone who hasn't seen it, you get a charming love story, a well-constructed time travel story, and you see Christopher Reeve and Jane Seymour before either one was famous - check out Somewhere in Time.
Just my own humble opinion. Dick
Objectively considered, I rank David Lean's A Passage to India over Dr. Zhivago but the Julie Christie's allure and the music get me every time. I agree with you about Somewhere in Time. Did you see the Bond movie with Jane Seymour or the TV version of Frankenstein? What a beauty, then and now! And a likeable lady too.
Post deleted at author's request.
What about "The Pope of Greenwich Village."
Too many people seen it, or you wouldn't rate it highly?
"Swimming with Sharks" is another good one that many people missed. From TV, there was an HBO baseball movie called "Long Gone", with William Petersen and Virginia Madsen that was great (if you like baseball).
I didn't like The Presidio much. You are right about the rest of the list; seen hardly any of 'em. And I rent a lot of videos.
Post deleted at author's request.
Suddenly with Sterling Hayden and Frank Sinatra. Brilliant!!
Tick, tick tick I believe was a made for TV movie with Jimmy Brown and Lee J Cobb.
Ransom with Glenn Ford, Donna Reed and Leslie Nielsen (with brown hair) was so much better than the remake.
And everyone has seen Z with Yves Montand. It won Best Foreign Film oscar.
the gods must be crazy
bean
a boy and his dog
nt
Do you highly recommend all of these movies?
Two relatively obscure movies that I recommend: "Crumb", and "Fast, cheap, and out of control" (This is easily the best movie I've ever seen about lion taming, robot science, topiary gardening, and naked mole rats. :)
You have my utmost respect, sir, and I'm only scoring 9/20 with you - but, at least, I've heard of 15/20. Taking it to 30 . . .
Repo Man
Dead End (1971, by a crazy Pole)
Obsession (with Adjani)
A Short Film about Love
The Vanishing (not the H'wood, happy-end remake)
The Travelling Players
Hard Boiled
Dark Star
The Fourth Man
Ride the High Country
Cyrus,
You also have my utmost respect:
The Vanishing: one of the scariest movies ever made.
Hasn't everyone seen Ride the High Country? Went to see it at Brown University on a big screen--palpable excitement--finally, after seeing it on TV and video, the big screen. Some dumb shit forgot the anamorphic lens, so I sat through a movie about stick figures.
A couple more:
Moonlighting (1981, I think, by another Pole) This movie has a "no squirm in your seat" factor. Better indicator than "thumbs up."
Jonah Will Be 25 in the Year 2000--Reminds me of the days when I discounted prices to those who didn't look like they could afford the price.
Miracle at Morgan's Creek--great Preston Sturges; great scene in which a wobbly-kneed Eddie Bracken passes himself off as "Ignatz Ratskynatsky."
Mr. Hulot's Holiday--Jacque Tati getting the hang of a tennis racket. Funniest scene in movie history.
Woman in the Dunes--sensual, disturbing; brilliant black and white cinematography; for me, anyway, perhaphs the most erotic movie ever made. And I'm not sure I know why.
John
Post deleted at author's request.
Steve,
Got it. Did you remember those lines or do you have the complete Preston Sturges scripts hanging around?
Do you know where this line comes from: "If a raffle ticket on a turkey costs a penny, I couldn't afford a chance on a jaybird's ass"?
John
John and Steve,
If you (John) can't make it out this year but can next, you, Steve, and whoever dares join us should get together for a drink or two. If I'm solvent, I'll buy (I heard they are going to put in a decent (hopefully quiet) bar at the Commerce when they expand). It would be worth it just to listen to you guys BS about these movies and other topics. But I need to see at least 10% of them first so give me time.
Regards,
Rick
If Jonah reminded you of the mischiefs of the charming Mimi, I can't wait to hear what did the heroine in Salamander remind you of. (Salamander is the only other Alain Tanner (sp) movie I have seen and like it even more than Jonah). And what happened in general to Belle de Jour, L'Avventura, Contempt, Dolce Vita and the like, I am sure they have been seen by even less people.
Azad
Azad,
I've only seen the one Tanner movie, but there's a pretty good video store in Providence, so I'll try to check out others. Over the past few years I've been working my way through their collection, getting through all of Herzog, Tarkovsky, and a few others I had missed along the way.
I was lucky; after I graduated from college, Brown ran a film series six nights a week, so I was able to see a number of relatively unknown films I would never had been able to see elsewhere. It was nice, too, to see them on a big screen instead of video. They also ran silents, so I got to see movies like The Lodger, Sherlock Jr., most of Chaplin, and stuff like Dr. Caligari in a theater.
Although many people haven't heard of these movies, there still is (or at least was) an art house clientele, so Antonionni and Bunuel are pretty well known. I got a kick out of Badger's list because many of these older American movies aren't available on video, and they really do have, I think, and even smaller audience. I had seen about half of his list, and I really liked many of them, especially the Nazi/spy movies that were made around WWII and the noirs.
I think the films that had very few viewers were banned films like Titticut Follies and Salo, and experimental films like Dog Star Man, Flamming Creatures, and Kenneth Anger's Magic Lantern Series. But even these had more viewers than, I think, many people might suspect. Cyrus, from what I can tell, probably has seen more obscure films than I have, and he (or she) might really know films with few viewers.
Anyway, check out Celine and Julie Go Boating if you can find it. The director is Jacques Rivette, and this should be much better known.
Regards,
John
I have to admit my knowledge of American cinema is very limited as I am quite a recent transplant to this country. In the small Eastern European country I grew up they had a whole cinema devoted to "classics" as they used to call them and I was going every week. Now they are showing mostly the new classics: Die Hard 12, Lethal Weapon 8 and other Hollywood garbage (America is in every corner of the world these days). I have never seen anything of Rivette's: thanks very much for the recommendation.
Salamander, BTW, is the most affecting movie I have seen about work, and I mean employment, working as a living. After seeing it I can never look at the prospect of working or the joice of a job the same way.
Azad
What with all the 'Objectivists' around here, and the general tone of political rhetoric being a couple of steps to the right of John Birch, I'm pleasantly surprised to note a fan of the strongly leftist and deeply influenced by Brecht director Theo Aggelopoulos. The Traveling Players is a great movie that has been totally overlooked by the mainstream. While I don't think any of his other movies have as overarching of an artistic vision or as comprehensive a view of modern Greek cultural and political life, all of his other works are worth seeing as well. A personal favorite is Alexander the Great. He may have the best composition for the screen out of any director I have seen. This is even more surprising considering his extensive use of the master shot. The Traveling Players is filmed entirely with master shots lasting at least 8 min. plus. However, he is far too slow paced and alienates the audience from the main characters too often to ever achieve any substantial degree of popularity.
I don't recognize any.
Three exceptional movies which are perhaps less known than many others:
1) The Ladykillers (a terrific British comedy with Alec Guinness)
2) The King Of Hearts
3) Enchantment
The Man in the White Suit was another good one with Alec Guinness.
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x
I heard of 3 and saw 1
Here are a few without reviews that should be available at your local videostore:
1) Where the Green Ants Dream
2) Salam Bombay
3) Little Vera
4) My Beattiful Laundrette
5) What's Up Tiger Lilly
6) Being There
7) Fritz the Cat (X)
8) Eraserhead
9) 7 Beauties
10) Swept Away
Ayn Rand's "We, the living" was an excellent movie. So was "My Life as a dog", "Musashi Miyamoto", Kurosawa's "Dreams", and Bruce Lee's "Fists of Fury".
Two Joe Mantegna movies should be on this list, and I believe both are David Mamet films. One is "Things Change", with Don Ameche. The other is "House of Games." Any comments on these two movies??
ttt
great "B" movie
.
x
Picking up on Badger's Obscure movie list. Here are my top ten Springsteen bootlegs, b-sides, "duets" or singles that otherwise weren't released on his studio albums. Some of them may have been released on the "Tracks" compilation, which I don't have in front of me.
1. Trapped- live version of the old Jimmy Clift standard, released on the "We are the World" album.
2. Johnny Bye Bye- B-Side circa "Born in the USA" era that also got some radio play
3. Endless Nights- Bruce sings back-up vocals and plays guitar on this searing Graham Parker single from "The Up Escalator."
4. Light of Day- many great live versions of this Springsteen-penned Joan Jett single have been recorded. The MTV (un)plugged version by Bruce is a good one.
5. Roulette- Unreleased outtake. A studio version is available on the bootleg "Another Side of Bruce Springsteen."
6. The Fever- Bruce gave this one to his homeboy Southside Johnny Lyons. Bruce has various versions that outrock Southside, despite Johnny's superior set of pipes.
7. Santa Claus is Comin to Town- His best known b-side, except for Pink Cadillac. I think I got my copy from the B-side of Dancin' in the Dark.
8. Murder, Incorporated- This live/bootleg staple finally made it's way to paying public in authorized fashion on the otherwise lame Greatest Hits compilation.
9. Misery Loves Company- Duet with Mike Ness (of Social Distortion) on his 1999 solo album "Cheatin at Solitaire."
10. Spirit in the Night- ok, I know this was included on his first album, Greeting from Asbury Park, but this masterpiece seems long since forgotten.
His version of Woody Guthrie's "I Aint Got no Home in This World Anymore", on the tribute album "A Vision Shared" was really good.
DS
Post deleted at author's request.
Springsteen has totally zero talent. No artistry whatsoever. If you like Springsteen, you're too damn old. Barry Manilow's better than Springsteen for Christ's sake. Get a life!!!
Hi.
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